I was looking at the new kill team commander book and I noticed... All the space marine commanders are primaris marines, none are standard. It could be nothing, could be an oversight ... Could be a push to sell those models.

Something I found interesting

I think it's just more and more proof that they the only releases Marines will see going forward are Primaris releases. It'll be a long time to complete the switch, but eventually it will happen. It'll take a decade or more, but it'll happen.

Yeah, all releases going forward wil probably be primaris or similiar GW has embraced the new scale.

 Smotejob wrote:
I was looking at the new kill team commander book and I noticed... All the space marine commanders are primaris marines, none are standard. It could be nothing, could be an oversight ... Could be a push to sell those models.

Something I found interesting

Yeah I brought this up in another thread when it was first revealed.

It looks pretty clear to me that Primaris is the future. That said, they aren't going to take the old kits off the shelves without a really good reason. So long as they sell ok, they'll be around for a long time yet.

Bare in mind it's not totally unheard of for kits to stay in production for two decades after original release!

No they aren't. Not yet anyway.

All standard marine kits are still on sale, none have been replaced by Primaris kits.

Also, in the background, normal marines are still being produced alongside Primaris marines, up to the current point in the Dark Imperium timeline.

robbienw wrote:
No they aren't. Not yet anyway.

All standard marine kits are still on sale, none have been replaced by Primaris kits.

Also, in the background, normal marines are still being produced alongside Primaris marines, up to the current point in the Dark Imperium timeline.

I'm pretty sure 'phasing out' is precisely what is happening. I'd bet money there will not be another standard sized marine produced by GW in the future. Even the Death Guard in the Dark Vengeance set were Primaris sized. So even though existing kits will still be on the shelves, and restocked for a while, the move over to the bigger size is already happening.

I'm inclined to agree that they are being phased out, but we just got some standard marines. CSM. We're about to get a new kit for them. So unless they intend to leave chaos in the dirt as 1 wound normal marines, and put SM as 'special' marines, I don't see it happening.

 Huron black heart wrote:

robbienw wrote:
No they aren't. Not yet anyway.

All standard marine kits are still on sale, none have been replaced by Primaris kits.

Also, in the background, normal marines are still being produced alongside Primaris marines, up to the current point in the Dark Imperium timeline.

I'm pretty sure 'phasing out' is precisely what is happening. I'd bet money there will not be another standard sized marine produced by GW in the future. Even the Death Guard in the Dark Vengeance set were Primaris sized. So even though existing kits will still be on the shelves, and restocked for a while, the move over to the bigger size is already happening.

No. For phasing out to begin, something has to actually disappear; no standard marine kits have done as yet, 15 months after primaris appeared.

The Chosen CSM in Dark Vengeance aren't Primaris sized and they aren't Death Guard. They are big though, same size as deathwatch, thousand sons, etc.

Also, several standard marines have been produced by GW and FW in the time since the Primaris have been released, so you are wrong there as well. Specifically we have had from GW series 1 and 2 of the Space Marine Heroes, and from FW we have had Sirae Karagon and Kasan Sabius, and Gabriel Angelos.

You know how they have design rules like:
"No rules for models we don't sell specific kits for"?

The inclusion of so many Primaris options but no non-Primaris, despite the clear design space for them, strongly suggests to me that someone above the rules team has given the direction that no additional support shall be given to non-Primaris Marines. In keeping with their clear direction to boost Primaris sales.

We can only hope the MarkII THunderwarriors go away quick.

robbienw wrote:

 Huron black heart wrote:

robbienw wrote:
No they aren't. Not yet anyway.

All standard marine kits are still on sale, none have been replaced by Primaris kits.

Also, in the background, normal marines are still being produced alongside Primaris marines, up to the current point in the Dark Imperium timeline.

I'm pretty sure 'phasing out' is precisely what is happening. I'd bet money there will not be another standard sized marine produced by GW in the future. Even the Death Guard in the Dark Vengeance set were Primaris sized. So even though existing kits will still be on the shelves, and restocked for a while, the move over to the bigger size is already happening.

No. For phasing out to begin, something has to actually disappear; no standard marine kits have done as yet, 15 months after primaris appeared.

The Chosen CSM in Dark Vengeance aren't Primaris sized and they aren't Death Guard. They are big though, same size as deathwatch, thousand sons, etc.

Also, several standard marines have been produced by GW and FW in the time since the Primaris have been released, so you are wrong there as well. Specifically we have had from GW series 1 and 2 of the Space Marine Heroes, and from FW we have had Sirae Karagon and Kasan Sabius, and Gabriel Angelos.

Pretty sure they meant Dark Imperium...

Those are all special cases though. Forgeworld is their own thing, and Heroes are a specially licensed product not actually sold or produced by GW.

Until we actually see something like a new Tactical Squad box that is pretty inconclusive.

Currently there's enough space on the shelves for both, so we will see what happens when we get Primaris Wave 2 and what that squeeze does. If we see many old kits go online only, that's phasing right there.

All releases going forward will be primaris*

*except the latest marine release which is not primaris

Ah right yes special cases.

"GW will never make normal marines again now primaris are here"

"That's wrong, both GW and FW have made some <examples given>"

"Ah but those don't count because reasons, moving goalposts, I only meant stuff release on a shelf in a GW, etc"



Heroes are both produced and sold by GW, you are wrong there. They were designed by the main studio miniature designers. They were produced in Nottingham at the main GW factory. They were sold by GW stores in Japan, and will be sold by GW stores worldwide when they are released this Saturday...

Forgeworld is a division of GW, and they have produced standard marine stuff since primaris arrived...

Question: does anyone have any info to suggest Primaris are actually outselling regular Marines? I've heard from a few FLGS owners that Primaris are unpopular except with new players.

Small sample size, nothing to draw inferences from. But I would be interested in knowing about other people's experiences.

In my area, regular marines are more popular except for one guy who plays Ultramarines and is "that gut" to infinity and beyond.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Question: does anyone have any info to suggest Primaris are actually outselling regular Marines? I've heard from a few FLGS owners that Primaris are unpopular except with new players.

Small sample size, nothing to draw inferences from. But I would be interested in knowing about other people's experiences.

Unpopular for play, or for buying? My concern is that while the primaris aren't great in the game, neither are regular marines, with a very few exceptions. And there are so many of them in circulation, buying new ones seems unnecessary.

 vaklor4 wrote:
In my area, regular marines are more popular except for one guy who plays Ultramarines and is "that gut" to infinity and beyond.

Why does playing primaris marines make you "that guy"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Question: does anyone have any info to suggest Primaris are actually outselling regular Marines? I've heard from a few FLGS owners that Primaris are unpopular except with new players.

Small sample size, nothing to draw inferences from. But I would be interested in knowing about other people's experiences.

Well...most "old players" aren't buying marines stuff - they have tons of marines. With how bad marines play on the table plus with new players being interested in the much better looking primaris. I have no idea how secondis marines could outsell primaris.

I can imagine Primaris being more popular with newer players, and less popular with older or existing players. Blanket statement, but I can easily see how this is true. What really matters is how well the Primaris range performs as to whether they'll return to making more regular kits for the standard space marines.

robbienw wrote:
Ah right yes special cases.

"GW will never make normal marines again now primaris are here"

"That's wrong, both GW and FW have made some <examples given>"

"Ah but those don't count because reasons, moving goalposts, I only meant stuff release on a shelf in a GW, etc"



Heroes are both produced and sold by GW, you are wrong there. They were designed by the main studio miniature designers. They were produced in Nottingham at the main GW factory. They were sold by GW stores in Japan, and will be sold by GW stores worldwide when they are released this Saturday...

Forgeworld is a division of GW, and they have produced standard marine stuff since primaris arrived...

They clearly are exceptional cases though. I don't see how you can say otherwise, even if I was incorrect about the production.

Until we get a proper 40k boxed set in plastic with new oldscale sculpts the point stands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darsath wrote:
I can imagine Primaris being more popular with newer players, and less popular with older or existing players. Blanket statement, but I can easily see how this is true. What really matters is how well the Primaris range performs as to whether they'll return to making more regular kits for the standard space marines.

Primaris players are buying their armies from scratch, over the last year.

Oldscale players, for the most part, are making some additions to an existing force.

'Popularity' in the sense of what people prefer isn't really point here. Primaris definitely have an advantage in terms of what people are actively buying though.

ATM I am mostly buying non primaris. I accept that primaris seems cool but, I prefeer to use tactical,scouts and devastators for playing. They simply haves more options for weapons, and die for a D2 weapon the same tan primaris.

I really use primaris as suport for my basic marines and for take fire doing my straight marines a longer life.

 Stux wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Ah right yes special cases.

"GW will never make normal marines again now primaris are here"

"That's wrong, both GW and FW have made some <examples given>"

"Ah but those don't count because reasons, moving goalposts, I only meant stuff release on a shelf in a GW, etc"



Heroes are both produced and sold by GW, you are wrong there. They were designed by the main studio miniature designers. They were produced in Nottingham at the main GW factory. They were sold by GW stores in Japan, and will be sold by GW stores worldwide when they are released this Saturday...

Forgeworld is a division of GW, and they have produced standard marine stuff since primaris arrived...

They clearly are exceptional cases though. I don't see how you can say otherwise, even if I was incorrect about the production.

Until we get a proper 40k boxed set in plastic with new oldscale sculpts the point stands.

Exceptional cases that, if they were absent, would actually help your case. But, since there is new marine support happening RIGHT NOW, it makes your point appear to be mostly pretense.

You weren't very clear in what you meant by 'phased out' right from the beginning. It took several posts to tease out that you were actually trying to say, deep beneath the alarmist messaging. It's still not even clear what you mean. Your point has shifted since the initial post, and now you're saying that you believe standard marines are being phased out because they have not yet received a new model kit since Primaris launched. That's specious reasoning, and you very clearly altered the premise of your point midway through the conversation so you could exclude all of the examples of times vanilla marines have received support from GW, which I admit you might have done without malicious intent.

The reason your point isn't very persuasive is because it applies to every other army as well. Just because a new model kit (with whatever special qualifiers you want to apply to it) for vanilla marines has not been announced or released does not in any way prove anything except that a new model kit for vanilla marines has not been announced or released. It does not hint at a larger strategy. It does not provide insight into the future. It does not provide enough supporting evidence to state, definitively, that marines are (or, to be fair, aren't) being phased out. The fact that there has been ongoing support, however 'exceptional' you may feel they are, suggests quite the opposite. Vanilla marines are alive and well.

Now - we can wildly speculate about what the future will hold, which is worth if it only for the fun, but it doesn't 'prove' anything.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
In my area, regular marines are more popular except for one guy who plays Ultramarines and is "that gut" to infinity and beyond.

Why does playing primaris marines make you "that guy"

You have seen Toy Story, right? As the plot of this is what he's referencing there.

Bharring wrote:
You know how they have design rules like:
"No rules for models we don't sell specific kits for"?

The inclusion of so many Primaris options but no non-Primaris, despite the clear design space for them, strongly suggests to me that someone above the rules team has given the direction that no additional support shall be given to non-Primaris Marines. In keeping with their clear direction to boost Primaris sales.

how are marine factions that don't have access to primaris marines suppose to be updated then? If GW doesn't fix or give new rules to stuff without new models, and those factions don't have primaris, then it would mean GW is never going to update them right?

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
In my area, regular marines are more popular except for one guy who plays Ultramarines and is "that gut" to infinity and beyond.

Why does playing primaris marines make you "that guy"

You have seen Toy Story, right? As the plot of this is what he's referencing there.

I just took it as saying he is "that guy" TO THE MAX - fully understanding the Buzz Lightyear reference.

What I don't understand the significance to Ultramarine or Primaris? It really seems to imply that using primaris makes you "that guy".

Lemondish wrote:

 Stux wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Ah right yes special cases.

"GW will never make normal marines again now primaris are here"

"That's wrong, both GW and FW have made some <examples given>"

"Ah but those don't count because reasons, moving goalposts, I only meant stuff release on a shelf in a GW, etc"



Heroes are both produced and sold by GW, you are wrong there. They were designed by the main studio miniature designers. They were produced in Nottingham at the main GW factory. They were sold by GW stores in Japan, and will be sold by GW stores worldwide when they are released this Saturday...

Forgeworld is a division of GW, and they have produced standard marine stuff since primaris arrived...

They clearly are exceptional cases though. I don't see how you can say otherwise, even if I was incorrect about the production.

Until we get a proper 40k boxed set in plastic with new oldscale sculpts the point stands.

Exceptional cases that, if they were absent, would actually help your case. But, since there is new marine support happening RIGHT NOW, it makes your point appear to be mostly pretense.

You weren't very clear in what you meant by 'phased out' right from the beginning. It took several posts to tease out that you were actually trying to say, deep beneath the alarmist messaging. It's still not even clear what you mean. Your point has shifted since the initial post, and now you're saying that you believe standard marines are being phased out because they have not yet received a new model kit since Primaris launched. That's specious reasoning, and you very clearly altered the premise of your point midway through the conversation so you could exclude all of the examples of times vanilla marines have received support from GW, which I admit you might have done without malicious intent.

The reason your point isn't very persuasive is because it applies to every other army as well. Just because a new model kit (with whatever special qualifiers you want to apply to it) for vanilla marines has not been announced or released does not in any way prove anything except that a new model kit for vanilla marines has not been announced or released. It does not hint at a larger strategy. It does not provide insight into the future. It does not provide enough supporting evidence to state, definitively, that marines are (or, to be fair, aren't) being phased out. The fact that there has been ongoing support, however 'exceptional' you may feel they are, suggests quite the opposite. Vanilla marines are alive and well.

Now - we can wildly speculate about what the future will hold, which is worth if it only for the fun, but it doesn't 'prove' anything.

I never claimed to prove anything, and my position has not changed. I find your post very curious for that reason!

Here's what I said:

"It looks pretty clear to me that Primaris is the future".

I also stated that I expected oldscale marines to stay on sale for years, possibly decades.

I still stand by none of your examples being standard GW kits though. If that isn't good enough for you, fine.

Karol wrote:

Bharring wrote:
You know how they have design rules like:
"No rules for models we don't sell specific kits for"?

The inclusion of so many Primaris options but no non-Primaris, despite the clear design space for them, strongly suggests to me that someone above the rules team has given the direction that no additional support shall be given to non-Primaris Marines. In keeping with their clear direction to boost Primaris sales.

how are marine factions that don't have access to primaris marines suppose to be updated then? If GW doesn't fix or give new rules to stuff without new models, and those factions don't have primaris, then it would mean GW is never going to update them right?

If they’re still selling the models you’ll get rules. I doubt GK are going to get the chop, even if they are utter gak right now.

phillv85 wrote:

Karol wrote:

Bharring wrote:
You know how they have design rules like:
"No rules for models we don't sell specific kits for"?

The inclusion of so many Primaris options but no non-Primaris, despite the clear design space for them, strongly suggests to me that someone above the rules team has given the direction that no additional support shall be given to non-Primaris Marines. In keeping with their clear direction to boost Primaris sales.

how are marine factions that don't have access to primaris marines suppose to be updated then? If GW doesn't fix or give new rules to stuff without new models, and those factions don't have primaris, then it would mean GW is never going to update them right?

If they’re still selling the models you’ll get rules. I doubt GK are going to get the chop, even if they are utter gak right now.

There is no reason why GK would not have primaris marines themselves. IMO - it's a huge missed opportunity.

 Xenomancers wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

Karol wrote:

Bharring wrote:
You know how they have design rules like:
"No rules for models we don't sell specific kits for"?

The inclusion of so many Primaris options but no non-Primaris, despite the clear design space for them, strongly suggests to me that someone above the rules team has given the direction that no additional support shall be given to non-Primaris Marines. In keeping with their clear direction to boost Primaris sales.

how are marine factions that don't have access to primaris marines suppose to be updated then? If GW doesn't fix or give new rules to stuff without new models, and those factions don't have primaris, then it would mean GW is never going to update them right?

If they’re still selling the models you’ll get rules. I doubt GK are going to get the chop, even if they are utter gak right now.

There is no reason why GK would not have primaris marines themselves. IMO - it's a huge missed opportunity.

I'm certain they're coming. I assume they just didn't have the studio time to dedicate to GK specific Primaris just yet.

They will probably update the kits 100% sure of it. looking at the new CSM in black fortress and even the space marine heros line up they are trying to update the models scale now that they have the 32mm bases. im 100% on board with this.

i do not know if they will 100% out old space marines rules wise though. i highly doubt it for decent amount of time. not until another end times level fluff shift.

phillv85 766317 10218633 wrote:

If they’re still selling the models you’ll get rules. I doubt GK are going to get the chop, even if they are utter gak right now.

The gak part is the important part. A codex has to have something good in it to be at least a bit fun to play. I would love to see most of the units people call bad in GK. Doesn't have to be something good like scouts, but naked tacticals, no specials, no possible upgrades, no psyker rules, nothing just cheap troops to run paladins.

I'm certain they're coming. I assume they just didn't have the studio time to dedicate to GK specific Primaris just yet.

They didn't make specific BA, SW or DA primaris they just added them in to those armies through an FAQ, even before those got a codex. GW could have done the same for GK, but through 8th, they were steadily cutting of any over laping rules between GK and other marines. That is why I wonder if they are going to added them. Would be nice if they did. Maybe the drop troop plasma dudes too. Those would be nice too.

9th Edition will squat oldmarines with an official "Use your old models as counts-as" decree.

I genuinely hope they they instead just upgrade the old Marine units to have Primaris stats.

Karol wrote:

phillv85 766317 10218633 wrote:

If they’re still selling the models you’ll get rules. I doubt GK are going to get the chop, even if they are utter gak right now.

The gak part is the important part. A codex has to have something good in it to be at least a bit fun to play. I would love to see most of the units people call bad in GK. Doesn't have to be something good like scouts, but naked tacticals, no specials, no possible upgrades, no psyker rules, nothing just cheap troops to run paladins.

I'm certain they're coming. I assume they just didn't have the studio time to dedicate to GK specific Primaris just yet.

They didn't make specific BA, SW or DA primaris they just added them in to those armies through an FAQ, even before those got a codex. GW could have done the same for GK, but through 8th, they were steadily cutting of any over laping rules between GK and other marines. That is why I wonder if they are going to added them. Would be nice if they did. Maybe the drop troop plasma dudes too. Those would be nice too.

GKs don't use normal wargear. They'll come up with some sort Primaris GK kit with fancy helmets, force weapons, and auto boltstorm guantlets.

That's my prediction anyway.

GK are a special case because they have unique geneseed.

As we know Cawl produced new geneseed for the Primaris. He (or someone else) would need to produce new versions of the grey knights geneseed so they could make Primaris grey knights. Getting hold of their geneseed to do this may be difficult given their secrecy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Ah right yes special cases.

"GW will never make normal marines again now primaris are here"

"That's wrong, both GW and FW have made some <examples given>"

"Ah but those don't count because reasons, moving goalposts, I only meant stuff release on a shelf in a GW, etc"



Heroes are both produced and sold by GW, you are wrong there. They were designed by the main studio miniature designers. They were produced in Nottingham at the main GW factory. They were sold by GW stores in Japan, and will be sold by GW stores worldwide when they are released this Saturday...

Forgeworld is a division of GW, and they have produced standard marine stuff since primaris arrived...

They clearly are exceptional cases though. I don't see how you can say otherwise, even if I was incorrect about the production.

Until we get a proper 40k boxed set in plastic with new oldscale sculpts the point still stands

They are exceptional but they still count. They are still standard marines.

You said you’d bet there would not be another standard sized marine produced by GW in the future. I pointed out were you were wrong with said examples.

You then shifted the goalposts and said they don’t count because they are special cases, so your point does not stand.

If you had originally said you didn’t think there would be any future releases for standard marines, barring some exceptional cases like the heroes series and all FW releases, your point could still stand.

robbienw wrote:
GK are a special case because they have unique geneseed.

As we know Cawl produced new geneseed for the Primaris. He (or someone else) would need to produce new versions of the grey knights geneseed so they could make Primaris grey knights. Getting hold of their geneseed to do this may be difficult given their secrecy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Ah right yes special cases.

"GW will never make normal marines again now primaris are here"

"That's wrong, both GW and FW have made some <examples given>"

"Ah but those don't count because reasons, moving goalposts, I only meant stuff release on a shelf in a GW, etc"



Heroes are both produced and sold by GW, you are wrong there. They were designed by the main studio miniature designers. They were produced in Nottingham at the main GW factory. They were sold by GW stores in Japan, and will be sold by GW stores worldwide when they are released this Saturday...

Forgeworld is a division of GW, and they have produced standard marine stuff since primaris arrived...

They clearly are exceptional cases though. I don't see how you can say otherwise, even if I was incorrect about the production.

Until we get a proper 40k boxed set in plastic with new oldscale sculpts the point still stands

They are exceptional but they still count. They are still standard marines.

You said you’d bet there would not be another standard sized marine produced by GW in the future. I pointed out were you were wrong with said examples.

You then shifted the goalposts and said they don’t count because they are special cases, so your point does not stand.

If you had originally said you didn’t think there would be any future releases for standard marines, barring some exceptional cases like the heroes series and all FW releases, your point could still stand.

I didn't say that. Look back, you have me confused with someone else.

You didn’t, it appears I confused you with another user, my apologies!

robbienw wrote:
You didn’t, it appears I confused you with another user, my apologies!

No worries, I've done it before myself!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
9th Edition will squat oldmarines with an official "Use your old models as counts-as" decree.

I genuinely hope they they instead just upgrade the old Marine units to have Primaris stats.

I doubt it, remember that the tac marine kit is less then 5 years old, the mk 3 armor is only 2 years old, GW'll likely contionue double dipping for awhile, especially as some of the oldest kits I belive are the rhino, which will be used by sisters and the Land Raider, in use by Custodes.

Does it really matter that much what prior editions fluff said about marines? Primaris already don't seem to make much sense fluff wise. So why would it matter if GK got something like tacticals or intercessors marines? At least there would be something to play with for GK players.

I understand an army having or not having stuff, because it makes it different. I find it very cool in fact. But it can't be different for sake of being different. If the unit options don't work, then people get something like the necron book or, from what I have been told, tyranids at some point in the past.

Karol wrote:
Does it really matter that much what prior editions fluff said about marines? Primaris already don't seem to make much sense fluff wise. So why would it matter if GK got something like tacticals or intercessors marines? At least there would be something to play with for GK players.

I understand an army having or not having stuff, because it makes it different. I find it very cool in fact. But it can't be different for sake of being different. If the unit options don't work, then people get something like the necron book or, from what I have been told, tyranids at some point in the past.

By the same token, it doesn't make sense to give GK all the normal Primaris units just so they have something.

GK don't use 'normal' soldiers, it's a big part of whole they are. They're all Psykers. So giving them Intercessors doesn't really make sense.

They need unique Primaris units when the time comes.

Right now GK aren't using any soldiers, because all of them suck, and you can't really make an army of just nemezis Dreadknights, because GK don't have those 3 scouts units needed to pull it off.

If GW makes primaris that are GK style, they are going to end up costing 30pts each for an intercessor with baby smite and some unit specific psychic power. And 30pts per model units work, only if they are artilery, can shot ignoring LoS or flying.

GK armies don't need another 20+ pts elite unit, they have enough of those and non of them work. What they do need is something cheap. Demons have nurglings for 30pts, why not give some sort of servo skull swarm unit to GK for 30pts too. Don't give them infiltration or the extra resiliance of nurglings, drop their attacks, but make the servo skulls buff GK psykers near by. Maybe add re-rolls to cast, or extend range of spells or let GK players transfer perils effects to the skull swarms.

 Xenomancers wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

Karol wrote:

Bharring wrote:
You know how they have design rules like:
"No rules for models we don't sell specific kits for"?

The inclusion of so many Primaris options but no non-Primaris, despite the clear design space for them, strongly suggests to me that someone above the rules team has given the direction that no additional support shall be given to non-Primaris Marines. In keeping with their clear direction to boost Primaris sales.

how are marine factions that don't have access to primaris marines suppose to be updated then? If GW doesn't fix or give new rules to stuff without new models, and those factions don't have primaris, then it would mean GW is never going to update them right?

If they’re still selling the models you’ll get rules. I doubt GK are going to get the chop, even if they are utter gak right now.

There is no reason why GK would not have primaris marines themselves. IMO - it's a huge missed opportunity.

I don't think intercessors meet the standard issue equipment requirement for GK

A post about how oldmarines are going away? It must be Monday!

Karol wrote:
Right now GK aren't using any soldiers, because all of them suck, and you can't really make an army of just nemezis Dreadknights, because GK don't have those 3 scouts units needed to pull it off.

If GW makes primaris that are GK style, they are going to end up costing 30pts each for an intercessor with baby smite and some unit specific psychic power. And 30pts per model units work, only if they are artilery, can shot ignoring LoS or flying.

GK armies don't need another 20+ pts elite unit, they have enough of those and non of them work. What they do need is something cheap. Demons have nurglings for 30pts, why not give some sort of servo skull swarm unit to GK for 30pts too. Don't give them infiltration or the extra resiliance of nurglings, drop their attacks, but make the servo skulls buff GK psykers near by. Maybe add re-rolls to cast, or extend range of spells or let GK players transfer perils effects to the skull swarms.

Having expensive elite units is basically defining trait of GKs...

Why don't we just give them Castellans and Guardsmen while we're at it if we just want to make GKs good with no regard for their fluff and design space?

robbienw wrote:

All standard marine kits are still on sale, none have been replaced by Primaris kits.

Still on sale, but most likely only until they sell out of existing stock. We've already seen a lot of it moved to GW exclusive.


While it's hard to guess a specific timeline, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the next codex is just Primaris marines and (possibly) repurposed old-marine vehicles where the crew either aren't visible or can be easily replaced with Primaris versions.


Although the way they're going, it's looking more and more likely that the next codex will just be Primaris Lieutenants.

 insaniak wrote:

robbienw wrote:

All standard marine kits are still on sale, none have been replaced by Primaris kits.

Still on sale, but most likely only until they sell out of existing stock. We've already seen a lot of it moved to GW exclusive.


While it's hard to guess a specific timeline, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the next codex is just Primaris marines and (possibly) repurposed old-marine vehicles where the crew either aren't visible or can be easily replaced with Primaris versions.


Although the way they're going, it's looking more and more likely that the next codex will just be Primaris Lieutenants.

This will not happen. You are living in a fantasy world if you think it will.

(although sign me up for codex primaris lieutenents)

Karol wrote:
Right now GK aren't using any soldiers, because all of them suck, and you can't really make an army of just nemezis Dreadknights, because GK don't have those 3 scouts units needed to pull it off.

Yes you can. And you've got ways of doing this.

But there's a question you need to answer 1st: What do you really want here?
A) A pure GK list using only dreadnights? I.E.; NOT SOUP
B) A battalion+ (I presume for CPs, cheap(er) boots on the ground, etc)
You can't have both.

Path #1: A pure GK spearhead detachment.
1-2 GK grandmaster dreadnights + 3-6 heavy support dreadnights. This will be really limited CP/strat wise. And if you follow the Rule of 3 you'll only be able to have 3 heavy dreadnights. :(
The question here is: How important to you are your GK strats? Would 4 CP be workable?

Path #2: SOUP (a bit). A Battle-Forged army where the binding keyword is Adeptus Astartes.
Version A: Battalion
Add 3x5 man scout squads (165 pts min.) + dreadnights . Here you can get 6 dreadnights (3 HQ, 3 heavy, rule of 3 irrelevant because slots available only allow 3&3)
Now you have your battalion. You'll have CPs, BUT you'll lose access to chapter & GK specific strats & both groups chapter tactics. Can you live with this?
Version B: Battalion + Spearhead
Find yourself 2 cheap Astartes HQ models (techmarines pt wise, but $ wise I bet someone would just give you 2 basic marines) add the 15 scouts, call this detachment #1 (Battalion, Astartes, {chapter = ?}
Form your dreadnights into detachment 2 (Spearhead, Astartes, GK)
And now you've got your CPs, both sets of army traits, & both sets of strats (and are part of the soup problem ).

And if you're looking to improve your GK & wishing you could have some non-psychic Primaris? Follow path #2b above. Paint up any primaris & scouts you add to match your GK. And eventually? You'll have enough stuff to play either GK, SM Primaris, or mixes.

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:
Right now GK aren't using any soldiers, because all of them suck, and you can't really make an army of just nemezis Dreadknights, because GK don't have those 3 scouts units needed to pull it off.

Yes you can. And you've got ways of doing this.

But there's a question you need to answer 1st: What do you really want here?
A) A pure GK list using only dreadnights? I.E.; NOT SOUP
B) A battalion+ (I presume for CPs, cheap(er) boots on the ground, etc)
You can't have both.

Path #1: A pure GK spearhead detachment.
1-2 GK grandmaster dreadnights + 3-6 heavy support dreadnights. This will be really limited CP/strat wise. And if you follow the Rule of 3 you'll only be able to have 3 heavy dreadnights. :(
The question here is: How important to you are your GK strats? Would 4 CP be workable?

Path #2: SOUP (a bit). A Battle-Forged army where the binding keyword is Adeptus Astartes.
Version A: Battalion
Add 3x5 man scout squads (165 pts min.) + dreadnights . Here you can get 6 dreadnights (3 HQ, 3 heavy, rule of 3 irrelevant because slots available only allow 3&3)
Now you have your battalion. You'll have CPs, BUT you'll lose access to chapter & GK specific strats & both groups chapter tactics. Can you live with this?
Version B: Battalion + Spearhead
Find yourself 2 cheap Astartes HQ models (techmarines pt wise, but $ wise I bet someone would just give you 2 basic marines) add the 15 scouts, call this detachment #1 (Battalion, Astartes, {chapter = ?}
Form your dreadnights into detachment 2 (Spearhead, Astartes, GK)
And now you've got your CPs, both sets of army traits, & both sets of strats (and are part of the soup problem ).

And if you're looking to improve your GK & wishing you could have some non-psychic Primaris? Follow path #2b above. Paint up any primaris & scouts you add to match your GK. And eventually? You'll have enough stuff to play either GK, SM Primaris, or mixes.

Even easier way to get those other options that can make sense lore wise is to run your army as 3 Battalions, 1 Battalion of "Inquisitorial Scions", 1 Battalion with 3 Scout/Tac Squads and maybe a Dev Squad or two, 1 Battalion as GK. Keep the first two Battalions fairly cheap... And it really doesn't break the immersion into your army. Or shoot, just go Scions and GK in two Battalions.

I understand wanting to run a pure GK army Karol, but unless you are willing to adapt to the game even just a little bit, spamming posts about how bad your GK in every Marine related thread isn't going to fix your problem.

If they wanted to phase out smallmarines the primaris kits would have similar options to make smallmarines obsolete. From a fluff POV the lack of options makes ZERO sense: "Look we have these big strong marines but let's not give them proper assault weapons or heavy weapons because the rest of the chapter would feel obsolete and we don't want them to feel bad."

That said I'm pretty sure no more smallmarine releases are coming. However they are already sculpted kits meaning they are making nothing but profit since the molds are in place waiting to be injected with plastic. There's no incentive to stop selling them.

 Weazel wrote:
If they wanted to phase out smallmarines the primaris kits would have similar options to make smallmarines obsolete. From a fluff POV the lack of options makes ZERO sense: "Look we have these big strong marines but let's not give them proper assault weapons or heavy weapons because the rest of the chapter would feel obsolete and we don't want them to feel bad."

That said I'm pretty sure no more smallmarine releases are coming. However they are already sculpted kits meaning they are making nothing but profit since the molds are in place waiting to be injected with plastic. There's no incentive to stop selling them.

And many of those molds are fairly new too.

Without going into a lengthy repetitive tirade...

1) Yes, going forward, outside of maybe a character or two, every "new" released Marine kit for 40K will be Primaris-scaled.
2) Marine kits will remain around for a long time. GW likes to get 10-20 years out of a plastic mold before dumping it. They will be around for another 5-10 years easy...but you'll get nothing new.
3) If they decide to continue the HH line of plastics, you'll actually have a back alley to get "old" scaled Space Marines (I think this is the safest way to do it, but their HH kit prices are dumb)
4) They're not going to magically turn off the tap and delete Marine entries in the next 18 months. You have plenty of time to enjoy marines.
5) There have been so many marine kits sold...they'll be around (even new in box) on eBay for a decade after they're discontinued.
6) If you like marines...smile, you're basically guaranteed another 10-20 kits over the next two years, so that's kinda cool.
7) Yes, every battlefield role that Marines currently carry out will be supplanted by a suitable Primaris option, eventually.

 Elbows wrote:
5) There have been so many marine kits sold...they'll be around (even new in box) on eBay for a decade after they're discontinued.

Pfft. New in Box marine sets will be on EBay into the next century. Might be a bit pricey depending upon the exact kit, but they'll be there.

 insaniak wrote:

robbienw wrote:

All standard marine kits are still on sale, none have been replaced by Primaris kits.

Still on sale, but most likely only until they sell out of existing stock. We've already seen a lot of it moved to GW exclusive.
Lieutenants.

I really can't see that happening. So much of the current marine kits are still new, loads are less than 5 years old. If they are selling out of the stock for them of course they would make new stock


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
5) There have been so many marine kits sold...they'll be around (even new in box) on eBay for a decade after they're discontinued.

Pfft. New in Box marine sets will be on EBay into the next century. Might be a bit pricey depending upon the exact kit, but they'll be there.

Definitely, 10 years is a bit of a low estimate There is plenty of Rogue Trader stuff on ebay, most of that stopped production in the mid 90's!

robbienw wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

robbienw wrote:

All standard marine kits are still on sale, none have been replaced by Primaris kits.

Still on sale, but most likely only until they sell out of existing stock. We've already seen a lot of it moved to GW exclusive.
Lieutenants.

I really can't see that happening. So much of the current marine kits are still new, loads are less than 5 years old. If they are selling out of the stock for them of course they would make new stock


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
5) There have been so many marine kits sold...they'll be around (even new in box) on eBay for a decade after they're discontinued.

Pfft. New in Box marine sets will be on EBay into the next century. Might be a bit pricey depending upon the exact kit, but they'll be there.

Definitely, 10 years is a bit of a low estimate There is plenty of Rogue Trader stuff on ebay, most of that stopped production in the mid 90's!

I'm 100% convinced that oldscale will be phased out, but I have to agree with you here. They will keep producing a lot of the kits for a long time, it doesn't make business sense to stop until they have to or they aren't selling well enough.

What will be interesting to see is what happens when the next wave of Primaris hits, which will likely mean that stores can't hold all the old kits due to shelf space. I think we'll see a bunch of oldscale kits go online only.

 insaniak wrote:

robbienw wrote:

All standard marine kits are still on sale, none have been replaced by Primaris kits.

Still on sale, but most likely only until they sell out of existing stock. We've already seen a lot of it moved to GW exclusive.

That would be very short time. GW doesn't keep HUGE stock of stuff(that costs money. Ideally they would prefer to ship sprues at the same rate as they produce so there would literally be zero stock at the time) so if that were plan say on the introduction of primaris then we would have been all out of stock loooong time ago. And why would they not print some more sprues? They have paid for the mould already so just matter of programming machine to cast up big pile of new sprues. Material cost is basically free anyway.

I think there are probably other kits from other factions that could go online only to make room if necessary. I doubt wave 2 is going to be that big, that it would need a huge amount of other kits to go online.

robbienw wrote:
I think there are probably other kits from other factions that could go online only to make room if necessary. I doubt wave 2 is going to be that big, that it would need a huge amount of other kits to go online.

I hope you're wrong. Half the Tyranid line is already online only

 Weazel wrote:
If they wanted to phase out smallmarines the primaris kits would have similar options to make smallmarines obsolete.

That really depends on what their objective is with introducing Primaris Marines.

One of the theories bandied about is that what GW are aiming for is to simplify the range, in order to make it easier to stick to the whole 'No models, no rules' principle. Giving units fewer options also makes sense if they're intending to move more towards Power Levels being the standard in future editions.

TBH, even though there have been a few non-primaries recently, I can't see GW sticking with old-scale marines for that long. My predictions:

- We'll continue to see all new GW plastic marine releases being Primaris.
- Forge World will continue to be able to do 'niche' old-scale marines for either Heresy or for Imperial Armour 'historical' releases. Even given the above, I'd expect the next Imperial Armour books to feature a load of Primaris Minotaurs or Red Scorpions or something.
- Chaos Marine releases will increase in scale so that they're near-enough Primaris sized - this has already happened with DG and TS, and the new CSM models in the Blackstone Fortress game seem to follow the same pattern.
- The next time GW redo either Grey Knights or Deathwatch, they'll get embiggened in the same way. I could see this happening to Grey Knights quite soon.
- In the long run (like, maybe 5 years from now) we'll either see all regular marine stuff gone, or 'additional tech/doctrine advancements' that see Primaris taking on the roles of many of the old marines, and all Marines will end up just assumed to be Primaris from now on. (For example, either the old box dreads are discontinued or new fluff that says Primaris can fit in them now, same with Terminators, or Scouts, or Rhinos etc etc).

I knew this was bound to happen as soon as the first Primaris showed up but a lot of posters accused me of paranoia. Now I can tell you: Told you so!

For 16 pages on the same already: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/764903.page

 fraser1191 wrote:


I don't think intercessors meet the standard issue equipment requirement for GK

Neither do they meet the requierments for not being shot on sight for being a tech heresy, did stop GW from adding them to the game anyway. I mean can anyone explain how a primaris or primaris officer effectivlly works in a chapter like Dark Angles? Wasn't the SW gene seed in compatible with non fenrisian humans? Isn't it illegal to create new weapons, AI etc in the empire by both the inner laws of the adeptus mechanicus and the decree of the emperor?

It is GW games and they can do anything with it. If they wanted they could added primaris GK in a time span, it takes them to write that GK can take them and put it online. It can be done even faster through their twitch, if a designer says it is the new rules and in full effect.

Karol wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:


I don't think intercessors meet the standard issue equipment requirement for GK

Neither do they meet the requierments for not being shot on sight for being a tech heresy, did stop GW from adding them to the game anyway. I mean can anyone explain how a primaris or primaris officer effectivlly works in a chapter like Dark Angles? Wasn't the SW gene seed in compatible with non fenrisian humans? Isn't it illegal to create new weapons, AI etc in the empire by both the inner laws of the adeptus mechanicus and the decree of the emperor?

It is GW games and they can do anything with it. If they wanted they could added primaris GK in a time span, it takes them to write that GK can take them and put it online. It can be done even faster through their twitch, if a designer says it is the new rules and in full effect.

Son of a gun, great points Karol... I actually agree with a good chunk of this.

I just wish GW had come straight out and said, "We're updating the scale and rules of marines to be more in line with their descriptions in the fluff." The most regrettable thing about Primaris is the writing that birthed them into the 40k universe. The second most regrettable thing is that they're in monolithic units with very few weapon choices.

Other than that the models are fantastic, in my opinion. As for the topic of this thread, I'll echo the doubt that any new mini-marines will be released from here on out, and that they'll be phased out entirely at some unknown point in the future.

At this point it seem glaringly obvious the GW will be phasing out original SM soon or later. As of now I've been picking up as many of the SM special characters I can so when GW stops making them I have them.

Karol wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:


I don't think intercessors meet the standard issue equipment requirement for GK

Neither do they meet the requierments for not being shot on sight for being a tech heresy, did stop GW from adding them to the game anyway. I mean can anyone explain how a primaris or primaris officer effectivlly works in a chapter like Dark Angles? Wasn't the SW gene seed in compatible with non fenrisian humans? Isn't it illegal to create new weapons, AI etc in the empire by both the inner laws of the adeptus mechanicus and the decree of the emperor?

It is GW games and they can do anything with it. If they wanted they could added primaris GK in a time span, it takes them to write that GK can take them and put it online. It can be done even faster through their twitch, if a designer says it is the new rules and in full effect.

This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.

As for Dark Angels, it's been addressed in the Codex and novels to a degree. For a start the majority of the chapter is not aware of the big secret, so for most Primaris it's no different to any other normal Dark Angel. Officers aren't even automatically in the Inner Circle. It's stated there are currently no Primaris in the Deathwing but that it's only a matter of time - it's been about 100 years since they were introduced so they've had time to prove their loyalty to a degree.

The Primaris models are simply stunning, let' be honest.

The downside of the range is that it's currently very limited. If we look at the Stormcast Eternals who launched with a similar, limited range we can see just how much they have been expanded since.

Once the Primars have access to more units, methods of play and variety of wargear more people will be happy to make the jump.

 Stux wrote:

This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.

As for Dark Angels, it's been addressed in the Codex and novels to a degree. For a start the majority of the chapter is not aware of the big secret, so for most Primaris it's no different to any other normal Dark Angel. Officers aren't even automatically in the Inner Circle. It's stated there are currently no Primaris in the Deathwing but that it's only a matter of time - it's been about 100 years since they were introduced so they've had time to prove their loyalty to a degree.

But there is already fluff in place stating that ‘regular’ Marines can get Primarified. They don’t need to have basic Primaris Intercessors in the GK. They could just write in that new the old GK got Primarified and the new ones are all put through Primaris Induction, and then release some bigger basic models. Now everyone is Primarised. Done.

Same thing with the Dark Angels. Either say it’s been a hundred more years and there’s loads of Primaris everywhere of say that all the higher-ups got Primarised.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Stux wrote:

This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.

As for Dark Angels, it's been addressed in the Codex and novels to a degree. For a start the majority of the chapter is not aware of the big secret, so for most Primaris it's no different to any other normal Dark Angel. Officers aren't even automatically in the Inner Circle. It's stated there are currently no Primaris in the Deathwing but that it's only a matter of time - it's been about 100 years since they were introduced so they've had time to prove their loyalty to a degree.

But there is already fluff in place stating that ‘regular’ Marines can get Primarified. They don’t need to have basic Primaris Intercessors in the GK. They could just write in that new the old GK got Primarified and the new ones are all put through Primaris Induction, and then release some bigger basic models. Now everyone is Primarised. Done.

Same thing with the Dark Angels. Either say it’s been a hundred more years and there’s loads of Primaris everywhere of say that all the higher-ups got Primarised.

I agree that GKs should get Primaris. What I'm saying is they need to be bespoke units that properly for the themes of GKs, not just give them everything Primaris which Karol seemed to be suggesting.

The process of turning an existing marine into Primaris is not canon. It was mentioned in a tweet from a designer as a possibility, but it's not been in any official fluff. If it did become canon I'd be fine with that though, and it would help fill a bunch of potential plot issues especially with Dark Angels.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

But there is already fluff in place stating that ‘regular’ Marines can get Primarified..

Only if they have added that very recently.

 Luciferian wrote:
I just wish GW had come straight out and said, "We're updating the scale and rules of marines to be more in line with their descriptions in the fluff." The most regrettable thing about Primaris is the writing that birthed them into the 40k universe. The second most regrettable thing is that they're in monolithic units with very few weapon choices.

Other than that the models are fantastic, in my opinion. As for the topic of this thread, I'll echo the doubt that any new mini-marines will be released from here on out, and that they'll be phased out entirely at some unknown point in the future.

Then they would need to size up all custodes. Either primaris are too large to be space marines as per fluff or custodians are too short. Primaris are NOT head shorter which marines are supposed to be.

 Stux wrote:


This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.
.

But GK are not psykers, their psychic powers are bad, other then buffing a NDK with the +1to roll save one. Or do you mean in fluff? If fluff is the problem, then GW could just say that primaris aren't considered trained enough to use the psychic powers and just don't have any to cast. Same way in a GK paladin unit where each one of those dudes was suppose to kill each kind of demon while naked and without weapons, using just psychic powers and sorcery, just one dude gets to cast. Rules are different from fluff to a huge degree. Psycannons should be able to kill demon princes in one salvo, if we went by the fluff, and we know that something with 1D, and few shot won't even scratch one.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Stux wrote:

This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.

As for Dark Angels, it's been addressed in the Codex and novels to a degree. For a start the majority of the chapter is not aware of the big secret, so for most Primaris it's no different to any other normal Dark Angel. Officers aren't even automatically in the Inner Circle. It's stated there are currently no Primaris in the Deathwing but that it's only a matter of time - it's been about 100 years since they were introduced so they've had time to prove their loyalty to a degree.

But there is already fluff in place stating that ‘regular’ Marines can get Primarified. They don’t need to have basic Primaris Intercessors in the GK. They could just write in that new the old GK got Primarified and the new ones are all put through Primaris Induction, and then release some bigger basic models. Now everyone is Primarised. Done.

Same thing with the Dark Angels. Either say it’s been a hundred more years and there’s loads of Primaris everywhere of say that all the higher-ups got Primarised.

There is no such fluff.

There is not a single example of a regular marine being turned into a primaris. Not in any codex, white dwarf, forgeworld or black library fluff.

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:


This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.
.

But GK are not psykers, their psychic powers are bad, other then buffing a NDK with the +1to roll save one. Or do you mean in fluff? If fluff is the problem, then GW could just say that primaris aren't considered trained enough to use the psychic powers and just don't have any to cast. Same way in a GK paladin unit where each one of those dudes was suppose to kill each kind of demon while naked and without weapons, using just psychic powers and sorcery, just one dude gets to cast. Rules are different from fluff to a huge degree. Psycannons should be able to kill demon princes in one salvo, if we went by the fluff, and we know that something with 1D, and few shot won't even scratch one.

That just sounds really lame though. GKs are supposed to use specialised gear and tactics that no other marines use, giving them regular Primaris makes no sense at all.

They'll get Primaris, I'm sure of it, but they'll be unique GK ones that actually fit with the army's themes.

The primaris upsizing was mentioned on an early live stream and not heard of since. That said, I'd be stunned if they don't do it. It'll just take a few years.

It was mentioned as a thing, but nothing has come of it. There is no indication in the fluff it is possible.

I don't think so. Quite the opposite, GW seems to be going out of their way to keep old-Marines and nu-Marines separate.

Giving Primaris access to things like Land Raiders, Stormwolf ships or Stormravens, etc.. would've muddied the waters a lot more, right from the gate, without needing to make a single new kit or miniature (which might be what's stopping Grey Knight Primaris or up-Primarified Characters).


They didn't do that, so I'd think they want to keep old Marines around as a flavour. Even if old Marines drop from GW's most popular, best-selling kit to, dunno, No. 5 maybe (?), they'd still be outselling most other stuff, from Custodes to Tau to pretty much all of AoS, etc..,

GW's not gonna shelf something like that in the next 20 years or so.

Some kits are only a few years old at best and some SM kits are around 10-15 years and they've showed no signs of being discontinued anytime soon. What I think will happen is simple.

1) Every new release going forward will be Primaris flavored space marines and not older ones but the range is pretty much fleshed out anyway
2) Older marine kits will be around for a long long time. Worst case is they all get relegated to GW's online only as they have done stuff like that already anyway and Primaris is in store and FLGS
3) They will still keep the rules around even in the next codex and 9th edition as they still produce the models as some stuff is just staple units of the SM lore and faction.
4) If anything new comes out it'll most likely be in a supplement book rather than a codex.

Some info from inside of GW.

Apparently the single HQ kits don't actually sell particularly well and don't make as much money as the bigger kits or sets so I doubt they'll remake past charters into new Primaris variants any time soon.

It might happen for a few really famous ones, but generally don't expect it.

 Ishagu wrote:
Some info from inside of GW.

Apparently the single HQ kits don't actually sell particularly well and don't make as much money as the bigger kits or sets so I doubt they'll remake past charters into new Primaris variants any time soon.

It might happen for a few really famous ones, but generally don't expect it.

I've heard kind something contrary to that.

Supposedly there is a new all Primaris chapter getting specific rules with the next update, and they will have new Primaris special characters.

So we may see ones no one has ever heard of before!

I'm not saying characters won't come. They'll probably be inside box-sets containing other kits also.

 Ishagu wrote:
I'm not saying characters won't come. They'll probably be inside box-sets containing other kits also.

I can't see a special character being part of another boxed set. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Obviously unless it's a 'Triumverate' type set.

 Stux wrote:

That just sounds really lame though. GKs are supposed to use specialised gear and tactics that no other marines use, giving them regular Primaris makes no sense at all.

They'll get Primaris, I'm sure of it, but they'll be unique GK ones that actually fit with the army's themes.

I think two things are happening here. First am not being able to say what I mean properly in english and I am missing something from your arguments. Because GK ave no special gear or special tactics or stratagams. Everything they have is strickt worse then loyalist marines. They stratagems are weaker version of those marines have, and they use it on weaker units, with less support options marines have. Their psychic powers are garbage, save for one that works on what unit, which gets focused fired anyway, so it just means one more turn of playing and not creating a winning situation, because after it is dead the rest of the GK army just doesn't work. Their melee weapons never get used against weaker targets, and versus good melee units having 1A is death for 20-40+ pts models, but they still have to buy them. They have SB, and I guess if GK could run around with just those and no nemezis weapons they would be a no special ammo version of DW, so again less special gear and tactics.

Even if you go super casual open play, never take good options type of games. GK don't have a place there. They are suppose to be anti demon. But they are bad vs demons, in fact the sole fact that they are on the tables means a demon player has better chance of winning, because he can not recycle his demonic units.


I don't know maybe am missing something. Maybe there are some special WD GK only stratagems or FW rules for GK that give them new units that are good. Maybe your talking about that. But in the core game I just can't see the specialist part of GK. They are worse sternguards and termintors that have to buy overcosted melee weapons.

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:

That just sounds really lame though. GKs are supposed to use specialised gear and tactics that no other marines use, giving them regular Primaris makes no sense at all.

They'll get Primaris, I'm sure of it, but they'll be unique GK ones that actually fit with the army's themes.

I think two things are happening here. First am not being able to say what I mean properly in english and I am missing something from your arguments. Because GK ave no special gear or special tactics or stratagams. Everything they have is strickt worse then loyalist marines. They stratagems are weaker version of those marines have, and they use it on weaker units, with less support options marines have. Their psychic powers are garbage, save for one that works on what unit, which gets focused fired anyway, so it just means one more turn of playing and not creating a winning situation, because after it is dead the rest of the GK army just doesn't work. Their melee weapons never get used against weaker targets, and versus good melee units having 1A is death for 20-40+ pts models, but they still have to buy them. They have SB, and I guess if GK could run around with just those and no nemezis weapons they would be a no special ammo version of DW, so again less special gear and tactics.

Even if you go super casual open play, never take good options type of games. GK don't have a place there. They are suppose to be anti demon. But they are bad vs demons, in fact the sole fact that they are on the tables means a demon player has better chance of winning, because he can not recycle his demonic units.


I don't know maybe am missing something. Maybe there are some special WD GK only stratagems or FW rules for GK that give them new units that are good. Maybe your talking about that. But in the core game I just can't see the specialist part of GK. They are worse sternguards and termintors that have to buy overcosted melee weapons.

I'm not looking at this from a balance perspective, I'm coming at it from a design perspective.

GKs DO have unique loadouts for all their infantry. They do have psychic powers on their infantry, and force weapons, and storm Bolters, and rules teleporting certain units and so on.

I'm not arguing this makes them GOOD with the current balance. I'm saying this is a huge part of their IDENTITY.

I strongly believe you shouldn't throw away the identity of a faction just to make them less weak. As I said in an earlier post, if that was your goal we might as well put Infantry Squads and Castellans in the GK codex and call it a day.

But no, GK Primaris should FEEL like GKs. They should be Psykers with force weapons etc.

Making them good is an entirely separate discussion.

tneva82 wrote:

Then they would need to size up all custodes. Either primaris are too large to be space marines as per fluff or custodians are too short. Primaris are NOT head shorter which marines are supposed to be.

Why are Custodians 'supposed to be' head taller than marines? It doesn't say that in their codex.

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Then they would need to size up all custodes. Either primaris are too large to be space marines as per fluff or custodians are too short. Primaris are NOT head shorter which marines are supposed to be.

Why are Custodians 'supposed to be' head taller than marines? It doesn't say that in their codex.

I have not read all BL novels, and maybe it is the translation, but in the one I did read one of the primaris was talking to Dorn on an eye to eye level. I doubt that Dorn was much smaller then Guillman, and the custodes hero was never described as super high for a custodes. So They should be around same high and no more then a head less taller then Guillman.

 Ishagu wrote:
Some info from inside of GW.

Apparently the single HQ kits don't actually sell particularly well and don't make as much money as the bigger kits or sets so I doubt they'll remake past charters into new Primaris variants any time soon.

It might happen for a few really famous ones, but generally don't expect it.

Shocker. People don't like getting 1 mono-pose model for 30 bucks when they can get 10 pose-able models for 50 bucks?

 Stux wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I'm not saying characters won't come. They'll probably be inside box-sets containing other kits also.

I can't see a special character being part of another boxed set. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Obviously unless it's a 'Triumverate' type set.

I've actually had some more thought on this, and I will concede that there is actually some precedence in Tyranids. Old One Eye and the Swarmlord each come as an optional build for Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants respectively.

It not totally impossible that they release a squad box and it contains parts like a unique head/Cape/sword etc to make a model or models into Special Characters.

That sort of modularity would really help people get on board with Primaris a bit more I would think too.

tneva82 wrote:


Then they would need to size up all custodes. Either primaris are too large to be space marines as per fluff or custodians are too short. Primaris are NOT head shorter which marines are supposed to be.

Yes, they should have thought of that. Just goes to show that the issue of scale has afflicted all of the space marine type models when you compare them to their relative statures in the fluff. Either way they're now caught in a game of leap frog with the models whether it's in the lore or simply in the dimensions of the models themselves; I just hope that if they continue to upgrade the different lines to a more "realistic" scale that they don't continue to justify it through fluff because that's totally unnecessary. All they ever had to say is, "from now on all power armor models will be larger because it looks cooler."

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Apparently the single HQ kits don't actually sell particularly well and don't make as much money as the bigger kits or sets (snip)

Shocker. People don't like getting 1 mono-pose model for 30 bucks when they can get 10 pose-able models for 50 bucks?

This - typically I prefer to convert my own characters these days purely from a cost-to-benefit point.

 Raichase wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Apparently the single HQ kits don't actually sell particularly well and don't make as much money as the bigger kits or sets (snip)

Shocker. People don't like getting 1 mono-pose model for 30 bucks when they can get 10 pose-able models for 50 bucks?

This - typically I prefer to convert my own characters these days purely from a cost-to-benefit point.

For real. Primaris bodies are a great template to go to town with your bitzbox on.

Also, 3rd party companies are already producing quality resin bodies for Primaris scaled marines --- allowing you to make some custom characters for waaaaay cheaper.

 Stux wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I'm not saying characters won't come. They'll probably be inside box-sets containing other kits also.

I can't see a special character being part of another boxed set. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Obviously unless it's a 'Triumverate' type set.

It's what they did with Nork Deddog, and some of the big AoS monster kits - even the ones that predate AoS. The Freeguild General on Griffon has the components on the sprue to make Karl-Franz, for example, and the Space Wolves upgrade sprue gives you all the bits you need to make a plastic Ragnar Blackmane.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I'm not saying characters won't come. They'll probably be inside box-sets containing other kits also.

I can't see a special character being part of another boxed set. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Obviously unless it's a 'Triumverate' type set.

It's what they did with Nork Deddog, and some of the big AoS monster kits - even the ones that predate AoS. The Freeguild General on Griffon has the components on the sprue to make Karl-Franz, for example, and the Space Wolves upgrade sprue gives you all the bits you need to make a plastic Ragnar Blackmane.

I actually retracted that statement in a subsequent post! I remembered Old One Eye and The Swarmlord were a thing.

Phasing them out is fine so long as there is a 1:1 replacement, ie, Primaris Terminators and what-have-you. What'll cause a riot and be fething stupid is if GW pulls a moronic move like scrapping the old marine line and not replacing the classic units with upscaled versions.

Well, I saw somewhere a picture comparison between Primaris and a Black legionaire from Blackstone Fortress. Seems a reescalation. Why not with Straight Marines?

I personally wouldn't mind too much if "old" marines were to be phased out eventually (should still take take at least a couple years though), but then again I only started at the end of 7th so my "oldmarine" collection is still fairly small. My primary gripe with the current roster of Primaris marines is that they don't synergize very well with my Space Wolves. Space Wolves are fairly choppy, while Primaris are almost exclusively shooty. The only things they have that are truly good in a scrap are the Captains, and the Reivers, Agressors and Redemptor Dread are also decent-ish, but the rest of 'em you probably want to keep as far away from CC as possible. So for the second wave of Primaris I'd like to see the following:

- At least one model that is available to all chapters that is a true CC specialist.
- Chapter-specific models (like we have Centurions for vanilla marines and Thunderwolf Cavalry for Space wolves right now).
- A transport that is cheaper in both points and teef than the Repulsor. At the moment things like Intercessors completely lack transport options because throwing them in a Repulsor is incredibly inefficient.

Karol wrote:

 Stux wrote:


This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.
.

But GK are not psykers, their psychic powers are bad, other then buffing a NDK with the +1to roll save one. Or do you mean in fluff?

Yes, you're GK are all psykers of some degree. Fluff & play. That's why units get that dinky baby smite.
Now as to wether it's as effective in play as the fluff would lead you to believe.... Well, that's a different complaint.

ccs wrote:

Yes, you're GK are all psykers of some degree. Fluff & play. That's why units get that dinky baby smite.
Now as to wether it's as effective in play as the fluff would lead you to believe.... Well, that's a different complaint.

Who cares if they are psykers in fluff. If you can't use the rules. Its like "having" a bike at a store. It is there you can look at it etc, you just can't ride it. Plus w40k fluff is attrocious and self contradicting, to a point where it makes not sense at all. 1ksons have normal smite, why is that? Even if we went along some anti game string of thought and decided that GK should be bad against anything, but demons. We would still arrive at the point that GK are bad vs demons, worse then other armies by a mile. Index armies like SoB are better vs demons.

The eldar fluff is that they are all a dead race, with craft worlds being blown up left and right. Yet somehow with that bad fluff, eldar players seem to be a happy bunch of people that like to throw around some fun jokes, like their book being actually underpowered, because it only has 10 OP units in it. And clearly it should have more, because of the fluff.

Karol wrote:

ccs wrote:

Yes, you're GK are all psykers of some degree. Fluff & play. That's why units get that dinky baby smite.
Now as to wether it's as effective in play as the fluff would lead you to believe.... Well, that's a different complaint.

Who cares if they are psykers in fluff. If you can't use the rules. Its like "having" a bike at a store. It is there you can look at it etc, you just can't ride it. Plus w40k fluff is attrocious and self contradicting, to a point where it makes not sense at all. 1ksons have normal smite, why is that? Even if we went along some anti game string of thought and decided that GK should be bad against anything, but demons. We would still arrive at the point that GK are bad vs demons, worse then other armies by a mile. Index armies like SoB are better vs demons.

The eldar fluff is that they are all a dead race, with craft worlds being blown up left and right. Yet somehow with that bad fluff, eldar players seem to be a happy bunch of people that like to throw around some fun jokes, like their book being actually underpowered, because it only has 10 OP units in it. And clearly it should have more, because of the fluff.

You’re missing the point of the message. You said GK were not psykers in-game, because their powers are bad. He is pointing out that they ARE psykers in-game, even if they have low-powered powers. They have the Psyker ability. They are psykers.

Karol wrote:

I have not read all BL novels, and maybe it is the translation, but in the one I did read one of the primaris was talking to Dorn on an eye to eye level. I doubt that Dorn was much smaller then Guillman, and the custodes hero was never described as super high for a custodes. So They should be around same high and no more then a head less taller then Guillman.

In the BL novels the Custodes are only slightly bigger than Astartes. Similarly the size difference between Primarchs and regular Astartes is nowhere near what the miniatures make of it. The Primarchs are bigger, but not THAT much bigger. With the miniatures, even Alpharius is a frickin' monster, while in the books he and Omegon basically blend in with regular Alpha Legionaires. In other words, the fluff and the miniatures are two completely different things.

I haven't even read the Primaris fluff much, but if they're meant to be notably bigger than regular marines, then they should be as tall or perhaps even taller than Custodes.

 tvih wrote:

Karol wrote:

I have not read all BL novels, and maybe it is the translation, but in the one I did read one of the primaris was talking to Dorn on an eye to eye level. I doubt that Dorn was much smaller then Guillman, and the custodes hero was never described as super high for a custodes. So They should be around same high and no more then a head less taller then Guillman.

In the BL novels the Custodes are only slightly bigger than Astartes. Similarly the size difference between Primarchs and regular Astartes is nowhere near what the miniatures make of it. The Primarchs are bigger, but not THAT much bigger. With the miniatures, even Alpharius is a frickin' monster, while in the books he and Omegon basically blend in with regular Alpha Legionaires. In other words, the fluff and the miniatures are two completely different things.

I haven't even read the Primaris fluff much, but if they're meant to be notably bigger than regular marines, then they should be as tall or perhaps even taller than Custodes.

It should also be noted that stuff like this varies by author. They're given quite a bit of license in their writing which leads to inconsistencies in the canon.

Basically, don't get too hung up on relatively small details in the novels.

 Stux wrote:
It should also be noted that stuff like this varies by author. They're given quite a bit of license in their writing which leads to inconsistencies in the canon.

Also the miniatures coming out may or may not have had an effect on descriptions related to size compared to the earlier novels - I'm playing catch up so I haven't read the newest books. But for example Legion and Deliverance Lost both have Alpharius and/or Omegon passing for a regular Legionary, having been written by different authors. However they are smaller than all the other Primarchs, the books also say as much.

At any rate GW may say they're first and foremost a miniature company, but in terms of the Primarchs the fluff came before the models (after all, all Primarchs still don't have models) so I wouldn't use the models for a scale comparison. In general tabletop 40k scales are all over the place. That's one reason for the Primaris being introduced, though frankly they shouldn't have been made a separate lore entity in my books. But for example Sisters of Silence are just as tall as regular plastic marines, which is obviously fluff-inaccurate. In general the scale has been creeping up over time as I'm sure we all know, leading to all sort of oddities given the age of some of the miniature ranges. As such I'd definitely "trust" the novels over models.

 tvih wrote:

Karol wrote:

I have not read all BL novels, and maybe it is the translation, but in the one I did read one of the primaris was talking to Dorn on an eye to eye level. I doubt that Dorn was much smaller then Guillman, and the custodes hero was never described as super high for a custodes. So They should be around same high and no more then a head less taller then Guillman.

In the BL novels the Custodes are only slightly bigger than Astartes. Similarly the size difference between Primarchs and regular Astartes is nowhere near what the miniatures make of it. The Primarchs are bigger, but not THAT much bigger. With the miniatures, even Alpharius is a frickin' monster, while in the books he and Omegon basically blend in with regular Alpha Legionaires. In other words, the fluff and the miniatures are two completely different things.

I haven't even read the Primaris fluff much, but if they're meant to be notably bigger than regular marines, then they should be as tall or perhaps even taller than Custodes.

not claiming I read all books about custodes, but constantin valdor seems to be not more then a head shorter or taller then Dorn. no idea how tall dorn is though.

You’re missing the point of the message. You said GK were not psykers in-game, because their powers are bad. He is pointing out that they ARE psykers in-game, even if they have low-powered powers. They have the Psyker ability. They are psykers

I don't know if something like this exists in other countries, but we have something called a dead law here. And GK being psykers is the same. The psychic powers are bad, not worth using or nerfed to a point where they don't equalize the cost of GK having them. To me that is not being psykers. Now if GK had a smite better then normal and a good psychic school like eldar or multiple school, then yeah, they would be psykers. Right now they are sternguard without the special ammon and obligatory bad melee weapons and no chapter tactics.

You'll have to define that, Google comes up empty of "dead law".

 Smotejob wrote:
I was looking at the new kill team commander book and I noticed... All the space marine commanders are primaris marines, none are standard. It could be nothing, could be an oversight ... Could be a push to sell those models.

Something I found interesting

From a buisiness sense, it will just happen. There are no ifs and or buts, as a business GW can't be loyal to old styles, they have to innovate and keep up with new technologies and standards in sculpting (they have to set the standard in fact, they always have). Also from a standpoint of 8th edition, AOS and Primaris/CSM GW are trying to resigned their brand, that's why they are updating whole armies, like Thousand Sons and Deathguard, same with AOS, to suggest they are going to do all this work re-branding and still keep the funky midget marines is just delusional, I never realised how Goffy SM's looked as I've been a collector since 2nd edition, when Primaris came out I was like 'that is what marines should look like', imagine what new fans will think of the old models. I just wish they just updated the models rather than making this ridiculous ex-machina primaris lore. Marines haven't been improved on for 10,000 years and then Cawl comes out of no where and says, yeah I've been working on them all this time. So ridiculous.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
I was looking at the new kill team commander book and I noticed... All the space marine commanders are primaris marines, none are standard. It could be nothing, could be an oversight ... Could be a push to sell those models.

Something I found interesting

From a buisiness sense, it will just happen. There are no ifs and or buts, as a business GW can't be loyal to old styles, they have to innovate and keep up with new technologies and standards in sculpting (they have to set the standard in fact, they always have). Also from a standpoint of 8th edition, AOS and Primaris/CSM GW are trying to resigned their brand, that's why they are updating whole armies, like Thousand Sons and Deathguard, same with AOS, to suggest they are going to do all this work re-branding and still keep the funky midget marines is just delusional, I never realised how Goffy SM's looked as I've been a collector since 2nd edition, when Primaris came out I was like 'that is what marines should look like', imagine what new fans will think of the old models. I just wish they just updated the models rather than making this ridiculous ex-machina primaris lore. Marines haven't been improved on for 10,000 years and then Cawl comes out of no where and says, yeah I've been working on them all this time. So ridiculous.

This in a nut shell is exactly how I feel. I recently read Dark Imperium by Guy Haley and the presence of Primaris space marines added nothing to the story or the setting. You could have told the same (pretty good ) story and not needed super duper space marines.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
I was looking at the new kill team commander book and I noticed... All the space marine commanders are primaris marines, none are standard. It could be nothing, could be an oversight ... Could be a push to sell those models.

Something I found interesting

From a buisiness sense, it will just happen. There are no ifs and or buts, as a business GW can't be loyal to old styles, they have to innovate and keep up with new technologies and standards in sculpting (they have to set the standard in fact, they always have). Also from a standpoint of 8th edition, AOS and Primaris/CSM GW are trying to resigned their brand, that's why they are updating whole armies, like Thousand Sons and Deathguard, same with AOS, to suggest they are going to do all this work re-branding and still keep the funky midget marines is just delusional, I never realised how Goffy SM's looked as I've been a collector since 2nd edition, when Primaris came out I was like 'that is what marines should look like', imagine what new fans will think of the old models. I just wish they just updated the models rather than making this ridiculous ex-machina primaris lore. Marines haven't been improved on for 10,000 years and then Cawl comes out of no where and says, yeah I've been working on them all this time. So ridiculous.

This in a nut shell is exactly how I feel. I recently read Dark Imperium by Guy Haley and the presence of Primaris space marines added nothing to the story or the setting. You could have told the same (pretty good ) story and not needed super duper space marines.

Also it has shifted so much in the lore, CSM are no longer their equal, which they always were supposed to be, game wise you can mitigate that with rules to get balance but from a lore stand point its more counter productive than anything else, it doesn't add anything as even loyalist [layers don't want them, they just want upgraded marines, same with me with my wolves, I want all my old models, like bloodclaws and skyclaws etc. I don't want them replaced with boring 'stock Primaris' which looks like that is the way GW are going, I hope not though otherwise I'll just stick with my WE's. From a lore wise for the whole CSM-SM's to work, they have to be able to compete with one another, you don't want an auto-win in the lore, its boring for both parties. You want your characters to go through tough times, not breaze through skipping, because the Indomitus crusade is now more than 200 years old, the Primaris have a lot of experience now, before they could have a weakness in being inexperienced. The whole thing was just not needed and GW only did it for money, they wanted to lie to people and say old marines will still be part of the game, so they made them 'primaris' so people thought its just another army, another faction to collect.

I'd love it if GW just stated the Primaris geneseed failed and they all pretty much died and now normal marines just took their fancy new armour etc. It would give the lore a bit of flavour but not ruin it.


Why don't we have space marine, space marines, GW are living up to their ridiculousness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zSxQnZ3TM8

My theory:

Primaris marines were developed by GW specifically to provide a lower barrier entry point for new players. For a new player primaris marines provide several attractive bonuses over regular marines:

1. They are new (yay, brand new product line that speaks directly to me and makes me feel special as a new player)
2. They are "stronger" than regular marines (yay, I don't need to buy/build/paint nearly as many of them to have a force large enough to play against existing 40k players)
3. They are big (yay, easier to paint with my noob skills)
4. Their rules compatibility with old marines is limited (yay (believe it or not), less stuff for me to think about, I can stay comfortably inside what is a relatively self-contained set of models before going deeper into the hobby)

Primaris don't strike me as a product line geared toward veteran players because rules-wise they are so incompatible with old marines. But for veteran players they do provide:

1. True-scale marines (this is cool for die hard lore fans).
2. *Some* tabletop compatibility eg. additional unit choices for existing marine armies

I don't think standard marines will ever go away because GW has invested far too much in developing the IP of standard marines and their associated lore to simply abandon completely in favor of Primaris. Instead, GW will continue to expand the primaris line as way to provide a solid "starter" faction for all new players, the kind that's on the fence about getting into 40k but isn't sure about investing tons of time/effort/money into building a fully-fledged space marine army.

I would guess that at a certain point GW will switch their focus back to standard marines and start updating their sculpts and scale to more modern 40k standards, while also keeping the Primaris line around and promoting it as an attractive entry point for gaining new customers.

TL;DR Primaris are a "noob" subfaction designed to make it easy for new players to get into 40k.

EDIT: Forgot to respond to the actual question: NO. GW is not phasing out standard marines. Sculpts and scale will be updated at some point but there is no way GW's going to invalidate decades of novels, spin-off games, video games and artwork by saying non-Primaris marines don't exist in 40k anymore.

 barboggo wrote:
My theory:

Primaris marines were developed by GW specifically to provide a lower barrier entry point for new players. For a new player primaris marines provide several attractive bonuses over regular marines:

1. They are new (yay, brand new product line that speaks directly to me and makes me feel special as a new player)
2. They are "stronger" than regular marines (yay, I don't need to buy/build/paint nearly as many of them to have a force large enough to play against existing 40k players)
3. They are big (yay, easier to paint with my noob skills)
4. Their rules compatibility with old marines is limited (yay (believe it or not), less stuff for me to think about, I can stay comfortably inside what is a relatively self-contained set of models before going deeper into the hobby)

Primaris don't strike me as a product line geared toward veteran players because rules-wise they are so incompatible with old marines. But for veteran players they do provide:

1. True-scale marines (this is cool for die hard lore fans).
2. *Some* tabletop compatibility eg. additional unit choices for existing marine armies

I don't think standard marines will ever go away because GW has invested far too much in developing the IP of standard marines and their associated lore to simply abandon completely in favor of Primaris. Instead, GW will continue to expand the primaris line as way to provide a solid "starter" faction for all new players, the kind that's on the fence about getting into 40k but isn't sure about investing tons of time/effort/money into building a fully-fledged space marine army.

I would guess that at a certain point GW will switch their focus back to standard marines and start updating their sculpts and scale to more modern 40k standards, while also keeping the Primaris line around and promoting it as an attractive entry point for gaining new customers.

TL;DR Primaris are a "noob" subfaction designed to make it easy for new players to get into 40k.

EDIT: Forgot to respond to the actual question: NO. GW is not phasing out standard marines. Sculpts and scale will be updated at some point but there is no way GW's going to invalidate decades of novels, spin-off games, video games and artwork by saying non-Primaris marines don't exist in 40k anymore.

I think GW are daft if they did it for new players. You can make a starter army with any army no matter the size or complexity of the army. I also don't buy it, because they are marines, they will have so many more units and complexity to the army in a few years time, so I think we can rule out that. I think the lack of options for units is for new players, but that is happening with most armies.

Old marines will without a shadow of a doubt will go away. All business' invest a lot in products, then they replace them with new updated products and they no longer sell old models. This isn't new, I've been playing since 2nd edition and I've had to replace a lot of armies due to updates. I would bet my mortgage that they will not only go away, I bet they won't even release new old marines now. Companies have to innovate and constantly develop and evolve their brand and products, especially in order to compete, it doesn't matter at all how much they have invested in old marines, business wise there is no reason to continue making an old product, especially new players won't buy them in comparison to Primaris. They don't care how much old players like old marines and that is a risk all business' make when they replace products. I wish nintendo still produced GBA, but they won't as they have 3DS, doesn't matter how much old fans like their products. GW customers have a very warped idea about business when it comes to GW, they love their product so much and the universe that GW have created, they stop seeing it as a business.

Karol wrote:

 tvih wrote:

Karol wrote:

I have not read all BL novels, and maybe it is the translation, but in the one I did read one of the primaris was talking to Dorn on an eye to eye level. I doubt that Dorn was much smaller then Guillman, and the custodes hero was never described as super high for a custodes. So They should be around same high and no more then a head less taller then Guillman.

In the BL novels the Custodes are only slightly bigger than Astartes. Similarly the size difference between Primarchs and regular Astartes is nowhere near what the miniatures make of it. The Primarchs are bigger, but not THAT much bigger. With the miniatures, even Alpharius is a frickin' monster, while in the books he and Omegon basically blend in with regular Alpha Legionaires. In other words, the fluff and the miniatures are two completely different things.

I haven't even read the Primaris fluff much, but if they're meant to be notably bigger than regular marines, then they should be as tall or perhaps even taller than Custodes.

not claiming I read all books about custodes, but constantin valdor seems to be not more then a head shorter or taller then Dorn. no idea how tall dorn is though.

You’re missing the point of the message. You said GK were not psykers in-game, because their powers are bad. He is pointing out that they ARE psykers in-game, even if they have low-powered powers. They have the Psyker ability. They are psykers

I don't know if something like this exists in other countries, but we have something called a dead law here. And GK being psykers is the same. The psychic powers are bad, not worth using or nerfed to a point where they don't equalize the cost of GK having them. To me that is not being psykers. Now if GK had a smite better then normal and a good psychic school like eldar or multiple school, then yeah, they would be psykers. Right now they are sternguard without the special ammon and obligatory bad melee weapons and no chapter tactics.

Look, I'll agree with you that the majority of your psychic powers & your baby smites might seem lacking. And having that smite & the ability to Deny the Witch on virtually every unit (there's only 9 non-psyker units in your codex - Servitors + 8 vehicles) no doubt jacks up the pt.cost-per-model.
But you don't get to redefine what's a psyker & what isn't rules-wise in this game. Your units are psykers, wether or not you like it or think it's worth using, because that's what their Key Word says on the subject.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 barboggo wrote:
My theory:

Primaris marines were developed by GW specifically to provide a lower barrier entry point for new players. For a new player primaris marines provide several attractive bonuses over regular marines:

1. They are new (yay, brand new product line that speaks directly to me and makes me feel special as a new player)
2. They are "stronger" than regular marines (yay, I don't need to buy/build/paint nearly as many of them to have a force large enough to play against existing 40k players)
3. They are big (yay, easier to paint with my noob skills)
4. Their rules compatibility with old marines is limited (yay (believe it or not), less stuff for me to think about, I can stay comfortably inside what is a relatively self-contained set of models before going deeper into the hobby)

Primaris don't strike me as a product line geared toward veteran players because rules-wise they are so incompatible with old marines. But for veteran players they do provide:

1. True-scale marines (this is cool for die hard lore fans).
2. *Some* tabletop compatibility eg. additional unit choices for existing marine armies

I don't think standard marines will ever go away because GW has invested far too much in developing the IP of standard marines and their associated lore to simply abandon completely in favor of Primaris. Instead, GW will continue to expand the primaris line as way to provide a solid "starter" faction for all new players, the kind that's on the fence about getting into 40k but isn't sure about investing tons of time/effort/money into building a fully-fledged space marine army.

I would guess that at a certain point GW will switch their focus back to standard marines and start updating their sculpts and scale to more modern 40k standards, while also keeping the Primaris line around and promoting it as an attractive entry point for gaining new customers.

TL;DR Primaris are a "noob" subfaction designed to make it easy for new players to get into 40k.

EDIT: Forgot to respond to the actual question: NO. GW is not phasing out standard marines. Sculpts and scale will be updated at some point but there is no way GW's going to invalidate decades of novels, spin-off games, video games and artwork by saying non-Primaris marines don't exist in 40k anymore.

I think GW are daft if they did it for new players. You can make a starter army with any army no matter the size or complexity of the army. I also don't buy it, because they are marines, they will have so many more units and complexity to the army in a few years time, so I think we can rule out that. I think the lack of options for units is for new players, but that is happening with most armies.

Old marines will without a shadow of a doubt will go away. All business' invest a lot in products, then they replace them with new updated products and they no longer sell old models. This isn't new, I've been playing since 2nd edition and I've had to replace a lot of armies due to updates. I would bet my mortgage that they will not only go away, I bet they won't even release new old marines now. Companies have to innovate and constantly develop and evolve their brand and products, especially in order to compete, it doesn't matter at all how much they have invested in old marines, business wise there is no reason to continue making an old product, especially new players won't buy them in comparison to Primaris. They don't care how much old players like old marines and that is a risk all business' make when they replace products. I wish nintendo still produced GBA, but they won't as they have 3DS, doesn't matter how much old fans like their products. GW customers have a very warped idea about business when it comes to GW, they love their product so much and the universe that GW have created, they stop seeing it as a business.

well yeah any army "can" be a starter army, but some are better then others. ther options marines have is actually problematic for new players in some ways.

I strongly disagree with Delvarus Centurion. Old marine models may get updated to larger scales, maybe even Primaris scale, but I don't think the *idea* of an old marine is ever going to go away. Unless they do something akin to a full reboot of literally all currently existing 40k lore, Primaris as the sole protagonist marine faction in the 40k world is just not going to happen.

"Adeptus Astartes Space Marine" is already a mouthful of words that GW was forced to go with for trademark reasons. "Adeptus Astartes Primaris Space Marine" is even worse. From a consumer perspective, it is always advantageous to have simpler, shorter, more recognizable naming schemes.

Furthermore, I don't buy that GW would bother developing new trademarks and lore for the Primaris line if they simply intended to replace vanilla marines completely, because if so, why not simply release the Primaris Intercessor box set as a new Tactical Squad box set? They spent money and effort into clearly differentiating between the two types of marines, or in other words, two highly differentiated product categories. If a total replacement of the vanilla Space Marine line was their ultimate goal they would have approached it the same way they approached updating the Death Guard line or the CSM line: by simply releasing newer, larger, updated models.

I believe the word "Primaris" is important because it serves as a flag that marks a set of products and associated lore specifically catering to new players. If all they wanted to do was sell bigger marines, they could have easily just released bigger marine models as the "new, 8th edition space marine".

 barboggo wrote:
I strongly disagree with Delvarus Centurion. Old marine models may get updated to larger scales, maybe even Primaris scale, but I don't think the *idea* of an old marine is ever going to go away. Unless they do something akin to a full reboot of literally all currently existing 40k lore, Primaris as the sole protagonist marine faction in the 40k world is just not going to happen.

"Adeptus Astartes Space Marine" is already a mouthful of words that GW was forced to go with for trademark reasons. "Adeptus Astartes Primaris Space Marine" is even worse. From a consumer perspective, it is always advantageous to have simpler, shorter, more recognizable naming schemes.

Furthermore, I don't buy that GW would bother developing new trademarks and lore for the Primaris line if they simply intended to replace vanilla marines completely, because if so, why not simply release the Primaris Intercessor box set as a new Tactical Squad box set? They spent money and effort into clearly differentiating between the two types of marines, or in other words, two highly differentiated product categories. If a total replacement of the vanilla Space Marine line was their ultimate goal they would have approached it the same way they approached updating the Death Guard line or the CSM line: by simply releasing newer, larger, updated models.

I believe the word "Primaris" is important because it serves as a flag that marks a set of products and associated lore specifically catering to new players. If all they wanted to do was sell bigger marines, they could have easily just released bigger marine models as the "new, 8th edition space marine".

Not since GW said that current marines can become Primaris, so it won't effect the lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 barboggo wrote:
My theory:

Primaris marines were developed by GW specifically to provide a lower barrier entry point for new players. For a new player primaris marines provide several attractive bonuses over regular marines:

1. They are new (yay, brand new product line that speaks directly to me and makes me feel special as a new player)
2. They are "stronger" than regular marines (yay, I don't need to buy/build/paint nearly as many of them to have a force large enough to play against existing 40k players)
3. They are big (yay, easier to paint with my noob skills)
4. Their rules compatibility with old marines is limited (yay (believe it or not), less stuff for me to think about, I can stay comfortably inside what is a relatively self-contained set of models before going deeper into the hobby)

Primaris don't strike me as a product line geared toward veteran players because rules-wise they are so incompatible with old marines. But for veteran players they do provide:

1. True-scale marines (this is cool for die hard lore fans).
2. *Some* tabletop compatibility eg. additional unit choices for existing marine armies

I don't think standard marines will ever go away because GW has invested far too much in developing the IP of standard marines and their associated lore to simply abandon completely in favor of Primaris. Instead, GW will continue to expand the primaris line as way to provide a solid "starter" faction for all new players, the kind that's on the fence about getting into 40k but isn't sure about investing tons of time/effort/money into building a fully-fledged space marine army.

I would guess that at a certain point GW will switch their focus back to standard marines and start updating their sculpts and scale to more modern 40k standards, while also keeping the Primaris line around and promoting it as an attractive entry point for gaining new customers.

TL;DR Primaris are a "noob" subfaction designed to make it easy for new players to get into 40k.

EDIT: Forgot to respond to the actual question: NO. GW is not phasing out standard marines. Sculpts and scale will be updated at some point but there is no way GW's going to invalidate decades of novels, spin-off games, video games and artwork by saying non-Primaris marines don't exist in 40k anymore.

I think GW are daft if they did it for new players. You can make a starter army with any army no matter the size or complexity of the army. I also don't buy it, because they are marines, they will have so many more units and complexity to the army in a few years time, so I think we can rule out that. I think the lack of options for units is for new players, but that is happening with most armies.

Old marines will without a shadow of a doubt will go away. All business' invest a lot in products, then they replace them with new updated products and they no longer sell old models. This isn't new, I've been playing since 2nd edition and I've had to replace a lot of armies due to updates. I would bet my mortgage that they will not only go away, I bet they won't even release new old marines now. Companies have to innovate and constantly develop and evolve their brand and products, especially in order to compete, it doesn't matter at all how much they have invested in old marines, business wise there is no reason to continue making an old product, especially new players won't buy them in comparison to Primaris. They don't care how much old players like old marines and that is a risk all business' make when they replace products. I wish nintendo still produced GBA, but they won't as they have 3DS, doesn't matter how much old fans like their products. GW customers have a very warped idea about business when it comes to GW, they love their product so much and the universe that GW have created, they stop seeing it as a business.

well yeah any army "can" be a starter army, but some are better then others. ther options marines have is actually problematic for new players in some ways.

Yeah but not for marines, they'll never be a small neice army like GK's or Harlies. Designing it so that they are elite armies only works for elite armies, SM will never be that elite. Options isn't a problem for new players, new morons maybe, its harder now anyways, because you have to pay for literally every weapon etc. but that's what power points are for, I don't see why GW had to simplify the game when they had powerpoints which are perfect for beginners. GW are just going overkill with the simplification because of that star wars game. Plus only nerds like us play the game, nerds are great are learning rules as nerds are obsessive, GW thinks they'll be as popular as apple.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Marines will stay, but will experience 'rules-squeeze'.

"Sure you're free to field them! Knock yourself out, chum! I'll just be over here playing with my übermarines, decked out with new kit, powers, strats, etc."

GW have a good handle on how to run this, from their AoS experience. Leave the army alone, but punish players for playing them, while offering multiple incentives to upgrade to Primaris. Look at sales figures when units get new rules, or new models with good rules drop: they sell out everywhere, and armies just reflect those new rulesets organically. So yeah, GW will let the rules do the hard lifting for them.

It might even be starting quite soon, with a second wave Primaris release. Up the power levels, and hear the marine players cry that their favourite characters can't use Primaris strats, vehicles, synergies, it's not fair! At which point GW kindly 'bows to public pressure' and rereleases character line in primaris scale as the faction's third wave, and the transition is pretty much complete.

 barboggo wrote:
"Adeptus Astartes Space Marine" is already a mouthful of words that GW was forced to go with for trademark reasons. "Adeptus Astartes Primaris Space Marine" is even worse. From a consumer perspective, it is always advantageous to have simpler, shorter, more recognizable naming schemes.

The bit in there that they have tried and faied to trademark before is 'Space Marine'. They can't copyright that. Shifting entirely over to a new world of 'Primaris Marines' solves that problem.

In fact, that may be the best reason why they embarked on the whole Primaris storyline rather than just releasing Primaris-sized models and saying 'this is the new scale of Space Marine, deal with it'.

In a few years time, their poster faction is called the Primaris Marines, and 'Space Marine' becomes an alternative term not used in official promotions - like 'Imperial Guard'.



.

 barboggo wrote:
My theory:

Primaris marines were developed by GW specifically to provide a lower barrier entry point for new players. For a new player primaris marines provide several attractive bonuses over regular marines:

1. They are new (yay, brand new product line that speaks directly to me and makes me feel special as a new player)
2. They are "stronger" than regular marines (yay, I don't need to buy/build/paint nearly as many of them to have a force large enough to play against existing 40k players)
3. They are big (yay, easier to paint with my noob skills)
4. Their rules compatibility with old marines is limited (yay (believe it or not), less stuff for me to think about, I can stay comfortably inside what is a relatively self-contained set of models before going deeper into the hobby)

Primaris don't strike me as a product line geared toward veteran players because rules-wise they are so incompatible with old marines. But for veteran players they do provide:

1. True-scale marines (this is cool for die hard lore fans).
2. *Some* tabletop compatibility eg. additional unit choices for existing marine armies

I don't think standard marines will ever go away because GW has invested far too much in developing the IP of standard marines and their associated lore to simply abandon completely in favor of Primaris. Instead, GW will continue to expand the primaris line as way to provide a solid "starter" faction for all new players, the kind that's on the fence about getting into 40k but isn't sure about investing tons of time/effort/money into building a fully-fledged space marine army.

I would guess that at a certain point GW will switch their focus back to standard marines and start updating their sculpts and scale to more modern 40k standards, while also keeping the Primaris line around and promoting it as an attractive entry point for gaining new customers.

TL;DR Primaris are a "noob" subfaction designed to make it easy for new players to get into 40k.

EDIT: Forgot to respond to the actual question: NO. GW is not phasing out standard marines. Sculpts and scale will be updated at some point but there is no way GW's going to invalidate decades of novels, spin-off games, video games and artwork by saying non-Primaris marines don't exist in 40k anymore.

Oldmarines being phased out eventually would not invalidate old lore and novels in any way. Those novels now simply play in the past, that's all. I think 10 years from now there won't be much oldmarines left tbh, lorewise, shelf-wise and rulewise.

Playing with a mix of straight maries and Primaris is hard to win. And if I have to compare it is better playing with only straight marines than only Primaris.

Primaris were launched and in my opinion they where leaved in the middle of nowhere. No option in weapons, far too expensive in points, leaving you an army with very few model for survive the high fire rate of the game. The models are nice, like what straight marines should be (the new Black Legionaire is more likes a Primaris, he is true scale).

Probably yes, in 10 years we will have no more straight marines. But then we will have a new Edition, with changes. We will have a bigger lore of Primaris, with leaders. They will have more options in weapons, more vehicles, real elite troops and a bettet points balance.

I hope we will have a version of tactical squads. And also a kind of devastators with multiple weapons options. And a Terminator squad, something new but similar to the tactical dreadnought armour, a new model from Cawl.

We will see, but I still have the fly behind the ear because of the new scale of Csm.

I have to agree with barboggo, primaris really do feel like a starter army with all the ETB kits and the Conquest stuff. I really cant see normal marines, with their richer background and history, going anywhere.

Seeing the multiple sizing pictures that are about now with height comparisons of the primaris marines and all the new stuff in the BSF box, it has really highlighted for me how chunky, ugly and plain primaris look by comparison to other recent gw minis.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Not since GW said that current marines can become Primaris, so it won't effect the lore.

GW haven't said that, though. One guy said it on Facebook, and that comment was later removed. And the word from Black Library authors started out as 'Nope, they can't be upgraded' and then later changed to 'Uh... we're just not supposed to go there either way right now...'

It's possible that GW will go that way, but nothing's been 'officially' stated about it yet.

However, that one guy was Pete Foley, the lead designer. Considering how explicit his answer was, I don't think he was confused. I think it is likely that he merely said it too soon, and the upgrade is for when GW wants to move some of the old special characters into Primaris.

 Crimson wrote:
However, that one guy was Pete Foley, the lead designer. Considering how explicit his answer was, I don't think he was confused. I think it is likely that he merely said it too soon, and the upgrade is for when GW wants to move some of the old special characters into Primaris.

Maybe it seemed definite that day. Maybe they've changed their minds since. Until there's some official lore we just don't know for sure.

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
However, that one guy was Pete Foley, the lead designer. Considering how explicit his answer was, I don't think he was confused. I think it is likely that he merely said it too soon, and the upgrade is for when GW wants to move some of the old special characters into Primaris.

Maybe it seemed definite that day. Maybe they've changed their minds since. Until there's some official lore we just don't know for sure.

Sure, but that's why we get this thread - to speculate wildly.

Lemondish wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
However, that one guy was Pete Foley, the lead designer. Considering how explicit his answer was, I don't think he was confused. I think it is likely that he merely said it too soon, and the upgrade is for when GW wants to move some of the old special characters into Primaris.

Maybe it seemed definite that day. Maybe they've changed their minds since. Until there's some official lore we just don't know for sure.

Sure, but that's why we get this thread - to speculate wildly.

That, and to correct people on technicalities

“The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older Space Marines were numbered.” - Dark Imperium

 grouchoben wrote:
“The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older Space Marines were numbered.” - Dark Imperium

That's Decimus Felix's personal opinion.

Given that GW have stated that chapters are making standard marines and primaris marines together, it is incorrect.

Forgot to respond to the actual question: NO. GW is not phasing out standard marines. Sculpts and scale will be updated at some point but there is no way GW's going to invalidate decades of novels, spin-off games, video games and artwork by saying non-Primaris marines don't exist in 40k anymore.

All I have to do is look over at my old warhammer fantasy collection to know that GW can and will destroy everything you love.

The decision has already been made, old marines are getting phased out. It might not be for another 10 years, but they’re done.

They’ve already taken a giant gak all over Baal and Fenris to do it too.

HH is staying the same, Chaos, who knows? But loyalists are going primaris

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Forgot to respond to the actual question: NO. GW is not phasing out standard marines. Sculpts and scale will be updated at some point but there is no way GW's going to invalidate decades of novels, spin-off games, video games and artwork by saying non-Primaris marines don't exist in 40k anymore.

All I have to do is look over at my old warhammer fantasy collection to know that GW can and will destroy everything you love.

The decision has already been made, old marines are getting phased out. It might not be for another 10 years, but they’re done.

They’ve already taken a giant gak all over Baal and Fenris to do it too.

HH is staying the same, Chaos, who knows? But loyalists are going primaris

And it's about damn time.

Lemondish wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Forgot to respond to the actual question: NO. GW is not phasing out standard marines. Sculpts and scale will be updated at some point but there is no way GW's going to invalidate decades of novels, spin-off games, video games and artwork by saying non-Primaris marines don't exist in 40k anymore.

All I have to do is look over at my old warhammer fantasy collection to know that GW can and will destroy everything you love.

The decision has already been made, old marines are getting phased out. It might not be for another 10 years, but they’re done.

They’ve already taken a giant gak all over Baal and Fenris to do it too.

HH is staying the same, Chaos, who knows? But loyalists are going primaris

And it's about damn time.

Ok 10 years, I can buy that lol.

And it's about damn time

About time to do what though?

Primaris as a thing shouldn’t exist. Their fluff is really stupid and completely ham handedly implemented. Not to mention gaking all over established lore of the some of the most famous chapters. Really? They’re decimating the blood angels, dark angels and space wolves just so they can shove some Primaris in our face? It cheapens the universe and removes the tragedy of the HH.

40k is a setting, it shouldn’t be advancing like it is.

Not to mention that Intercessors are the only good looking models and that’s simply because their proportions are correct. The other models like aggressors look dumb as feth. They also completely lack skulls, bling and close combat weapons. Basically the one thing that separates 40k marines from every other IP’s “space marines”. Get that sci-fi gak outta my 40k, let’s keep it medieval like it should be.

If they wanted to make true scale marines, just do that. But don’t give us this janky half baked Primaris bs excuse. Just give me the classics.

Everything advances or dies.

If intercessors drop 2 more points, the other troops are now obsolete.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

And it's about damn time

About time to do what though?

Primaris as a thing shouldn’t exist. Their fluff is really stupid and completely ham handedly implemented. Not to mention gaking all over established lore of the some of the most famous chapters. Really? They’re decimating the blood angels, dark angels and space wolves just so they can shove some Primaris in our face? It cheapens the universe and removes the tragedy of the HH.

40k is a setting, it shouldn’t be advancing like it is.

Not to mention that Intercessors are the only good looking models and that’s simply because their proportions are correct. The other models like aggressors look dumb as feth. They also completely lack skulls, bling and close combat weapons. Basically the one thing that separates 40k marines from every other IP’s “space marines”. Get that sci-fi gak outta my 40k, let’s keep it medieval like it should be.

If they wanted to make true scale marines, just do that. But don’t give us this janky half baked Primaris bs excuse. Just give me the classics.

Is all one opinion.

Personally I like it, and that's as a Dark Angels player.

robbienw wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
“The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older Space Marines were numbered.” - Dark Imperium

That's Decimus Felix's personal opinion.

Given that GW have stated that chapters are making standard marines and primaris marines together, it is incorrect.

The only reason standard marines are still being made is becuase of existing stocks of their wargear. Are Chapters just hoping to let motorpools of Land Raiders, predators and vindicators sit idle? No. So they are making standard marines until thwy use up their wargear and then it will be Primaris full steam ahead.

People grasping at straws trying to deny the phase out. It will take years but it has clearly already started.

 insaniak wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Not since GW said that current marines can become Primaris, so it won't effect the lore.

GW haven't said that, though. One guy said it on Facebook, and that comment was later removed. And the word from Black Library authors started out as 'Nope, they can't be upgraded' and then later changed to 'Uh... we're just not supposed to go there either way right now...'

It's possible that GW will go that way, but nothing's been 'officially' stated about it yet.

I don't have FB so that isn't true and I don't get my sources for facts etc. from people on forums, we'd be believing the moon was made of cheese if that was the case.. It was definitely GW, The BL writers write what they want, they aren't given commands by GW. GW keep in contact with some writers, but if someone writes something GW don't like or that it changes the lore too much they will either ask for it to be edited or they won't publish it.

The upgrade thing was said by Pete Foley in the second 8th edition live Q&A. It is still available.

https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/videos/379597632435221/?t=1195
At about 20ish minutes.

I don't know about any Facebook comments on the subject, deleted or otherwise.

It seems pretty clear from the recent fluff that Primaris Marines are intended to eventually replace OldMarines. In addition to that, one constant complaint about OldMarines is that they are a generalist army in a game that favors specialists. Primaris units are all specialists in something, so GW is addressing the feedback through the introduction of Primaris Marines. Plus, they do stand to sell existing SM players a whole new army, which is a bit obnoxious considering I've been expanding my SM army since 3rd edition, but it's not like I won't buy in.

Furthermore, just because Primaris are the wave of the future doesn't mean that OldMarines have to stop being playable. Technically, one can still play a Bretonnians army in AoS. There are rules for them - at least there were in the first AoS release. GW just doesn't sell the model range anymore. I imagine AoS players don't see a lot of Bret armies, but they were never as all-pervasive as Space Marines are in 40K. Even when GW stops producing the model range, they'll probably still provide rules, and we'll probably still see OldMarine armies for years afterwards.

Plus, 30K is a thing. Anyone who has an OldMarine army has a ready-made 30K force. We may need to make some strategic additions, but that would involve a handful of models for most people.

Personally, I'm holding off on buying any new OldMarine models till I see where GW is going with the Primaris range. I'm not sinking more money into an army where the writing is pretty clearly on the wall, and it's not like I don't already have enough stuff to grind through painting-wise. I still have practically the whole of the Dark Imperium starter set to assemble and paint, and as a DA player I have to buy supplementary Hellblasters and plasma-Inceptors so I can WotDA in style - currently I'm using Ravenwing Knights and Devastators for that strat.

The only question I have about expansion to the Primaris range is if GW intends to produce Primaris Bikers. In order for the Ravenwing to continue existing as it does, they'd have to give us something like that. Deathwing could be represented by Gravis-armor Marines, but there's nothing suitable for the Ravenwing yet.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Furthermore, just because Primaris are the wave of the future doesn't mean that OldMarines have to stop being playable. Technically, one can still play a Bretonnians army in AoS. There are rules for them - at least there were in the first AoS release. GW just doesn't sell the model range anymore. I imagine AoS players don't see a lot of Bret armies, but they were never as all-pervasive as Space Marines are in 40K. Even when GW stops producing the model range, they'll probably still provide rules, and we'll probably still see OldMarine armies for years afterwards.

Plus, 30K is a thing. Anyone who has an OldMarine army has a ready-made 30K force. We may need to make some strategic additions, but that would involve a handful of models for most people.

Yeah, I could see old-style tactical marines becoming a PDF download or an Index list or something. They could go either way with the model range - obviously the small models’ days are numbered, but it only takes a line of text to say that the Cawl has discovered/devised modifications to X vehicle that allow it to carry Primaris.

Not sure about the 30k thing, though. The player base at the moment have a minor stroke if your models don’t have the right shape of helmet or colour of rivets so the idea that they’d be fine with Scythes of the Emperor is unlikely.

 Crimson wrote:
The upgrade thing was said by Pete Foley in the second 8th edition live Q&A. It is still available.

https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/videos/379597632435221/?t=1195
At about 20ish minutes.

I don't know about any Facebook comments on the subject, deleted or otherwise.

Yeah they got quiet very quickly when we all clocked on that if current characters are going to become Primaris, meaning that they are definitely going phase out current marines.

 SickSix wrote:

robbienw wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
“The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older Space Marines were numbered.” - Dark Imperium

That's Decimus Felix's personal opinion.

Given that GW have stated that chapters are making standard marines and primaris marines together, it is incorrect.

The only reason standard marines are still being made is becuase of existing stocks of their wargear. Are Chapters just hoping to let motorpools of Land Raiders, predators and vindicators sit idle? No. So they are making standard marines until thwy use up their wargear and then it will be Primaris full steam ahead.

People grasping at straws trying to deny the phase out. It will take years but it has clearly already started.

Not just because of the wargear, also because of their more flexible combat doctrines according to GW. There is nothing to suggest that the Forgeworlds and chapters that make this gear will stop making it. It would be unwise to do so if there was not adequate replacement for said wargear, which there currently isn’t.

As for a phase out having ‘clearly already started’, that is not the case, as not one single regular marine kit has been discontinued.

I think a better reason is that Primaris marines have n longitudinal studies in their gene seed, especially how that and even just the minds ofPrimaris work under true combat or working with and amongst human soldiers and human workers. 200-300 years is a short time for SM's, I think lore wise they'd still make normal marines until Primaris are fully tested. The only way I think marines would be axed in the lore is if Primaris marines were cheaper and faster to make etc. because necessity has never been greater due to the rift, but it would lead to some interestign writing if they did axe them and then later they found a serious problem with Primaris marines.

As opposed to the myriad flaws in mini marines geneseed? I think losing your mind, drinking blood and becoming a gibbering lunatic isn’t quite “to spec” for instance.

Bremon wrote:
As opposed to the myriad flaws in mini marines geneseed? I think losing your mind, drinking blood and becoming a gibbering lunatic isn’t quite “to spec” for instance.

True but it could always get worse, look at the Thousand sons before Magnus made his deal with the gods.

Martel732 wrote:
Everything advances or dies.

If intercessors drop 2 more points, the other troops are now obsolete.

Not until they have a transport option that's smaller than the Repulsor. Until that time arrives I will keep using my Grey Hunters and Blood Claws TYVM.

Pandabeer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everything advances or dies.

If intercessors drop 2 more points, the other troops are now obsolete.

Not until they have a transport option that's smaller than the Repulsor. Until that time arrives I will keep using my Grey Hunters and Blood Claws TYVM.

It’s ridiculous they can’t just ride in a Rhino considering what fits in the Harry Potter tent in the back of a Wave Serpent.

Pandabeer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everything advances or dies.

If intercessors drop 2 more points, the other troops are now obsolete.

Not until they have a transport option that's smaller than the Repulsor. Until that time arrives I will keep using my Grey Hunters and Blood Claws TYVM.

Rumours are that's coming in the next wave.

 Stux wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

Not until they have a transport option that's smaller than the Repulsor. Until that time arrives I will keep using my Grey Hunters and Blood Claws TYVM.

Rumours are that's coming in the next wave.

Source?

 Stux wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everything advances or dies.

If intercessors drop 2 more points, the other troops are now obsolete.

Not until they have a transport option that's smaller than the Repulsor. Until that time arrives I will keep using my Grey Hunters and Blood Claws TYVM.

Rumours are that's coming in the next wave.

There's no actual source to confirm this BUT I personally think this will be the case when the next wave comes through - whenever that is.

Pandabeer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everything advances or dies.

If intercessors drop 2 more points, the other troops are now obsolete.

Not until they have a transport option that's smaller than the Repulsor. Until that time arrives I will keep using my Grey Hunters and Blood Claws TYVM.

I'd still use my Blood claws, they are still good CC options and help giving enough troops for CP's. Plus I have always loved blood claws.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everything advances or dies.

If intercessors drop 2 more points, the other troops are now obsolete.

Not until they have a transport option that's smaller than the Repulsor. Until that time arrives I will keep using my Grey Hunters and Blood Claws TYVM.

Rumours are that's coming in the next wave.

There's no actual source to confirm this BUT I personally think this will be the case when the next wave comes through - whenever that is.

Pretty big chance yes, would only be logical. Same for (jet?)bikes and a flyer. I reaaaally hope there's also going to be a CC specialist though. And Primaris Jump Pack HQs.

Pandabeer wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everything advances or dies.

If intercessors drop 2 more points, the other troops are now obsolete.

Not until they have a transport option that's smaller than the Repulsor. Until that time arrives I will keep using my Grey Hunters and Blood Claws TYVM.

Rumours are that's coming in the next wave.

There's no actual source to confirm this BUT I personally think this will be the case when the next wave comes through - whenever that is.

Pretty big chance yes, would only be logical. Same for (jet?)bikes and a flyer. I reaaaally hope there's also going to be a CC specialist though. And Primaris Jump Pack HQs.

Yeah I'm hoping for all those things. An Inceptor Librarian and Captain would be amazing.

I don't think we need a brand new unit for CC, just some options for the existing ones.

If I'm wish listing?

Reivers with riot shields and shock batons.
Inceptors with storm shields and power lances.

robbienw wrote:

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Stux wrote:

This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.

As for Dark Angels, it's been addressed in the Codex and novels to a degree. For a start the majority of the chapter is not aware of the big secret, so for most Primaris it's no different to any other normal Dark Angel. Officers aren't even automatically in the Inner Circle. It's stated there are currently no Primaris in the Deathwing but that it's only a matter of time - it's been about 100 years since they were introduced so they've had time to prove their loyalty to a degree.

But there is already fluff in place stating that ‘regular’ Marines can get Primarified. They don’t need to have basic Primaris Intercessors in the GK. They could just write in that new the old GK got Primarified and the new ones are all put through Primaris Induction, and then release some bigger basic models. Now everyone is Primarised. Done.

Same thing with the Dark Angels. Either say it’s been a hundred more years and there’s loads of Primaris everywhere of say that all the higher-ups got Primarised.

There is no such fluff.

There is not a single example of a regular marine being turned into a primaris. Not in any codex, white dwarf, forgeworld or black library fluff.

Actually in war of secrets multiple marines that were around in the horus heresy are now primaris.

 kastelen wrote:

robbienw wrote:

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Stux wrote:

This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.

As for Dark Angels, it's been addressed in the Codex and novels to a degree. For a start the majority of the chapter is not aware of the big secret, so for most Primaris it's no different to any other normal Dark Angel. Officers aren't even automatically in the Inner Circle. It's stated there are currently no Primaris in the Deathwing but that it's only a matter of time - it's been about 100 years since they were introduced so they've had time to prove their loyalty to a degree.

But there is already fluff in place stating that ‘regular’ Marines can get Primarified. They don’t need to have basic Primaris Intercessors in the GK. They could just write in that new the old GK got Primarified and the new ones are all put through Primaris Induction, and then release some bigger basic models. Now everyone is Primarised. Done.

Same thing with the Dark Angels. Either say it’s been a hundred more years and there’s loads of Primaris everywhere of say that all the higher-ups got Primarised.

There is no such fluff.

There is not a single example of a regular marine being turned into a primaris. Not in any codex, white dwarf, forgeworld or black library fluff.

Actually in war of secrets multiple marines that were around in the horus heresy are now primaris.

That is not true.

I've read war of secrets, I have no idea how you got that impression. It is entirely false.

The vast majority of the Cawl made Primaris were taken from terra and mars over the millenia, and were human recruits not already marines.

The few Primaris who were from legion recruiting worlds, the ones focused on in the dark imperium books, were not already marines when they were taken to be Primaris. They were just human recruits as well.

robbienw wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

robbienw wrote:

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Stux wrote:

This is different. Having basic Primaris in GKs breaks the whole special flavour of Grey Knights. They are supposed to all be Psykers for a start.

As for Dark Angels, it's been addressed in the Codex and novels to a degree. For a start the majority of the chapter is not aware of the big secret, so for most Primaris it's no different to any other normal Dark Angel. Officers aren't even automatically in the Inner Circle. It's stated there are currently no Primaris in the Deathwing but that it's only a matter of time - it's been about 100 years since they were introduced so they've had time to prove their loyalty to a degree.

But there is already fluff in place stating that ‘regular’ Marines can get Primarified. They don’t need to have basic Primaris Intercessors in the GK. They could just write in that new the old GK got Primarified and the new ones are all put through Primaris Induction, and then release some bigger basic models. Now everyone is Primarised. Done.

Same thing with the Dark Angels. Either say it’s been a hundred more years and there’s loads of Primaris everywhere of say that all the higher-ups got Primarised.

There is no such fluff.

There is not a single example of a regular marine being turned into a primaris. Not in any codex, white dwarf, forgeworld or black library fluff.

Actually in war of secrets multiple marines that were around in the horus heresy are now primaris.

That is not true.

I've read war of secrets, I have no idea how you got that impression. It is entirely false.

The vast majority of the Cawl made Primaris were taken from terra and mars over the millenia, and were human recruits not already marines.

The few Primaris who were from legion recruiting worlds, the ones focused on in the dark imperium books, were not already marines when they were taken to be Primaris. They were just human recruits as well.

AFAIK Dante is the oldest non dreadnought marine and the marines in the spoiler have fought on terra would've been longer than 1500 years ago.

I'm pretty sure you cant get the old Marneus calgar in termie armor. so that is something that's been phased out