Do they not understand that a 3++ save is incredible and doesn't need any kind of special icing on top for it to be autoinclude in literally every situation?
Was In a game last night and my Russ Demolisher was getting charged by a Custodes bike captain. He reolled a double 1 for the 6 inch charge then command pointed with another 1 - which totally sucked for him - but it was great for me. I went to get a drink and I came back and my friend was like - oh man "this guy actually has reroll charge from his (warlord trait or relic - not sure which it was) and he then proceeds to roll 1 more dice for a 6 and makes the charge. I could have been a dick and not allowed it - but I don't play like that. I was legitimately angered by the actual rule itself though. Seriously...who's Idea was it to add any icing on top rules for a M Gaking 3++ save? Like seriously why not just make it a 2++ save if the 3++ wasn't good enough? Holy crap GW. PLEASE learn the rules to your own game 3++ is kind of good.
3++ is retardadly good the higher the Toughness and Wounds of the model getting it is. I'm of the opinion that invuln saves in general need to be rare for Armor, and anything past 5++ REALLY needs to be examined.
And while I realize that Custodes bike captains aren't armor, they're pretty close.
MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.
Having said that, I'm pretty sure "You can't reroll a reroll" is still a thing in 8th, right? If you've used a CP reroll for a single dice, and then try to use a Relic to "reroll your charge distance", how does that interact?
I don't think you can, since you can't reroll a reroll, and using a relic/special rule/stratagem to "reroll your charge distance" requires you to reroll both dice (and now you can't), then you wouldn't be able to use that relic/special rule/stratagem.
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Amishprn86 wrote: MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.
Sorry, but Null Zone is NOT a plan to deal with Invuln saves. Casts on 8 and 6" range is hardly a reliable tool in your "toolkit" to deal with invuln saves. The speed and character rule of Dawneagle Captain means he can just avoid the libby with null zone, and/or drop out of range to not get hit with mortal wounds (shooting/smite or anything else).
Rocmistro wrote: I don't think you can, since you can't reroll a reroll, and using a relic/special rule/stratagem to "reroll your charge distance" requires you to reroll both dice (and now you can't), then you wouldn't be able to use that relic/special rule/stratagem.
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Amishprn86 wrote: MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.
Sorry, but Null Zone is NOT a plan to deal with Invuln saves. Casts on 8 and 6" range is hardly a reliable tool in your "toolkit" to deal with invuln saves. The speed and character rule of Dawneagle Captain means he can just avoid the libby with null zone, and/or drop out of range to not get hit with mortal wounds (shooting/smite or anything else).
Melee ones it is... How many PoF DE players are there? How many Melee Shiny Spears? How many 4++ Characters? If you know Invul units are coming to CC you, yes it is a good option.
Amishprn86 wrote: MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.
Don’t shoot high AP at units with good invulnerable saves.
Shoot volume of fire with enough AP to put them on their invulnerable save instead of armour, probably even just -1 will do in a lot of cases, or -2. Make them roll more dice and more will fail.
I think you guys are missing the point. I am upset about the relic being over the top. A 3++ save relic is sufficient - it doesn't need to also reroll charges. I actually let him get away with doing a double reroll because on double 1's you would pick up both dice and reroll every time if you have a reroll charge.
Hes my friend I'm not going to punish him for a simple mistake like that. What is stupid is this relic. 3++ save does not need anything special on top of it. I actaully killed it no problem with a bunch of bolt rifles and a taurox with gatling cannon and auto cannons.
I'm not slowed, here, people, I understand you don't waste lascannons on a 3++.
The problem is, as I started in my original response to Xeno, that you can't shoot something that has, effectively, tank stats, with dakka dakka. Wounding on 5's and a 2+ armor save, 7 wounds, assuming you even CAN shoot at him (character) in ADDITION to the 3++ is too much. You can't have premium defense without paying premium price for it. It's the flip side of the dissy cannon conversation that's going on the Chapter Approved thread; being good against everything (hordes, elite infantry and vehicles) but only paying niche cost (15 pts.)
BaconCatBug wrote: So stop firing things that care about his invulnerable, overwhelm him with Dakka, ya zoggin git.
Well some armies don't have the dakka to drop jetbike captins or the MW in kill him in a single turn. Not saying it is the case here, but if there are 3 of the cpts and some sort of support, and there always is support, some armies just fold in melee. smite or not,
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Rocmistro wrote: I'm not slowed, here, people, I understand you don't waste lascannons on a 3++.
The problem is, as I started in my original response to Xeno, that you can't shoot something that has, effectively, tank stats, with dakka dakka. Wounding on 5's and a 2+ armor save, 7 wounds, assuming you even CAN shoot at him (character) in ADDITION to the 3++ is too much. You can't have premium defense without paying premium price for it. It's the flip side of the dissy cannon conversation that's going on the Chapter Approved thread; being good against everything (hordes, elite infantry and vehicles) but only paying niche cost (15 pts.)
True, a pimped out custodes cpt costs less then a GKGM, only the GKGM doesn't have a jetbike, the actually good stratagems, better stats and inv.
Xenomancers wrote: I actually let him get away with doing a double reroll because on double 1's you would pick up both dice and reroll every time if you have a reroll charge.
Correct unless competition level event. He would always reroll with auric aqulias if he failed a charge. All you did was make it a realistic outcome if he was a better player. Winning a friendly because of noob should not be satisfying.
Also note, Custodes have 2 relics that can give shield captains 3++, its called Eagle Eye
Automatically Appended Next Post: You must also hate the smash captain that has a 3++ for 15pts, combined with the relic that allows him to reroll charges AND ignore overwatch
I play Blood Angels and Captain Smashypants is absolutely too good for his points. No question. That's why he's showing up souped into every Guard List with his BA obligatory 3x5 Scout battalion + (Flybrarian or Mephiston).
But, at least he's not nearly as tough as a Jetbike Capt, or a 2+ base, or as many wounds, or as fast.
Rocmistro wrote: I play Blood Angels and Captain Smashypants is absolutely too good for his points. No question. That's why he's showing up souped into every Guard List with his BA obligatory 3x5 Scout battalion + (Flybrarian or Mephiston).
But, at least he's not nearly as tough as a Jetbike Capt, or a 2+ base, or as many wounds, or as fast.
Cant put a price on relics, stratagems and traits.
What part of the bare bones captain is overpriced:
Rocmistro wrote: I don't think you can, since you can't reroll a reroll, and using a relic/special rule/stratagem to "reroll your charge distance" requires you to reroll both dice (and now you can't), then you wouldn't be able to use that relic/special rule/stratagem.
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Amishprn86 wrote: MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.
Sorry, but Null Zone is NOT a plan to deal with Invuln saves. Casts on 8 and 6" range is hardly a reliable tool in your "toolkit" to deal with invuln saves. The speed and character rule of Dawneagle Captain means he can just avoid the libby with null zone, and/or drop out of range to not get hit with mortal wounds (shooting/smite or anything else).
As an observation, if he's avoiding the Librarian, you have a 12" radius area he's not going, which is many times good enough.
That said, the Jetbike will probably dive bomb the librarian to take him out and thus cancel the null zone, so you better be ready to keep him alive.
Rocmistro wrote: I play Blood Angels and Captain Smashypants is absolutely too good for his points. No question. That's why he's showing up souped into every Guard List with his BA obligatory 3x5 Scout battalion + (Flybrarian or Mephiston).
But, at least he's not nearly as tough as a Jetbike Capt, or a 2+ base, or as many wounds, or as fast.
Cant put a price on relics, stratagems and traits.
What part of the bare bones captain is overpriced:
Jump pack 19, Thunderhammer 21 or Stormshield 15
The Jump Pack. GW consistently undervalues speed, especially speed with FLY.
Rocmistro wrote: I don't think you can, since you can't reroll a reroll, and using a relic/special rule/stratagem to "reroll your charge distance" requires you to reroll both dice (and now you can't), then you wouldn't be able to use that relic/special rule/stratagem.
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Amishprn86 wrote: MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.
Sorry, but Null Zone is NOT a plan to deal with Invuln saves. Casts on 8 and 6" range is hardly a reliable tool in your "toolkit" to deal with invuln saves. The speed and character rule of Dawneagle Captain means he can just avoid the libby with null zone, and/or drop out of range to not get hit with mortal wounds (shooting/smite or anything else).
As an observation, if he's avoiding the Librarian, you have a 12" radius area he's not going, which is many times good enough.
That said, the Jetbike will probably dive bomb the librarian to take him out and thus cancel the null zone, so you better be ready to keep him alive.
Yeah. B.c controlling a large part of the table, stopping/making him work around a 15" circle that has important units in it and an objective isnt good enough for him. He doesnt want tactics, he wants basic marines shooting basic marines and is QQing b.c he has to think.
Xenomancers wrote: I think you guys are missing the point. I am upset about the relic being over the top. A 3++ save relic is sufficient - it doesn't need to also reroll charges. I actually let him get away with doing a double reroll because on double 1's you would pick up both dice and reroll every time if you have a reroll charge.
Hes my friend I'm not going to punish him for a simple mistake like that. What is stupid is this relic. 3++ save does not need anything special on top of it. I actaully killed it no problem with a bunch of bolt rifles and a taurox with gatling cannon and auto cannons.
Did you know that Custodes actually have another relic that IS just a 3++ ?
There's Auric Aquilas which is what you're talking about, 3++ and re-roll charge but only bikes can take it.
Then there's the Eagle's Eye which is just the 3++ but anyone can take it.
I basically agree with you, even as a Custodes player. 3++ in itself is crazy good, and these too relics existing make it really hard to justify taking any of the others.
GW really, really needs to stop handing out such good protection to so many characters, I agree. They also need to take a long, hard look at many of their relics because it's laughable how bad some of them are in comparison to others. The Shield Captain is the perfect example of a unit that's gone completely too far in one direction. You don't need T6, W7, 2+ save and a 3++ on top of the protection of being a character and the possibility of a 5+++, that's just insane and leaves very little valid counterplay. Dakka doesn't work because of the high Toughness and low-volume high-damage stuff doesn't work because of the 3++. The major difference between the Shield captain and the Smashcaptain is that the BA Captain is T4 with W5 so you actually can just hose him down with small arms once he's obliterated his target.
Use Assault Cannons and Autocannons (or racial equivalents), they are great value against Custodes. High volume of fire, good strength and optimal at -1 AP. Incidentally, they also work great against Dark Eldar flyers and Shining Spears.
Xenomancers wrote: I think you guys are missing the point. I am upset about the relic being over the top. A 3++ save relic is sufficient - it doesn't need to also reroll charges. I actually let him get away with doing a double reroll because on double 1's you would pick up both dice and reroll every time if you have a reroll charge.
Hes my friend I'm not going to punish him for a simple mistake like that. What is stupid is this relic. 3++ save does not need anything special on top of it. I actaully killed it no problem with a bunch of bolt rifles and a taurox with gatling cannon and auto cannons.
Then he's not the problem, the problem is you letting him ignore a fundamental rule that's been in place since 4th and letting him reroll everything until he makes the charge.
Bubblewrap also. He can no longer charge across screen units. Feed him chaff to charge and don’t let him consolidate into stuff you want alive. Layers and Dakka will drop them.
Xenomancers wrote: I think you guys are missing the point. I am upset about the relic being over the top. A 3++ save relic is sufficient - it doesn't need to also reroll charges. I actually let him get away with doing a double reroll because on double 1's you would pick up both dice and reroll every time if you have a reroll charge.
Hes my friend I'm not going to punish him for a simple mistake like that. What is stupid is this relic. 3++ save does not need anything special on top of it. I actaully killed it no problem with a bunch of bolt rifles and a taurox with gatling cannon and auto cannons.
Then he's not the problem, the problem is you letting him ignore a fundamental rule that's been in place since 4th and letting him reroll everything until he makes the charge.
Are we really criticising someone for deciding not to be TFG? You realise the guy rolled double-1 for the initial charge, right? He's obviously going to want to use the relic reroll with that. Xenomancer did exactly what I (and I assume a large number of other people) would have done and allowed his opponent to go back and rectify an obvious mistake because he forgot about a rule that probably rarely comes up. The fact he rolled one dice first, then the second dice after that isn't relevant when the outcome is the same either way. It sounds like the game hadn't moved on to the Fight phase yet either so there's absolutely nothing affected by letting his opponent use the rule he's just remembered about.
Xenomancers wrote: I think you guys are missing the point. I am upset about the relic being over the top. A 3++ save relic is sufficient - it doesn't need to also reroll charges. I actually let him get away with doing a double reroll because on double 1's you would pick up both dice and reroll every time if you have a reroll charge.
Hes my friend I'm not going to punish him for a simple mistake like that. What is stupid is this relic. 3++ save does not need anything special on top of it. I actaully killed it no problem with a bunch of bolt rifles and a taurox with gatling cannon and auto cannons.
Then he's not the problem, the problem is you letting him ignore a fundamental rule that's been in place since 4th and letting him reroll everything until he makes the charge.
Are we really criticising someone for deciding not to be TFG? You realise the guy rolled double-1 for the initial charge, right? He's obviously going to want to use the relic reroll with that. Xenomancer did exactly what I (and I assume a large number of other people) would have done and allowed his opponent to go back and rectify an obvious mistake because he forgot about a rule that probably rarely comes up. The fact he rolled one dice first, then the second dice after that isn't relevant when the outcome is the same either way. It sounds like the game hadn't moved on to the Fight phase yet either so there's absolutely nothing affected by letting his opponent use the rule he's just remembered about.
Honestly that's nowhere near what TFG is. You re-roll once, and it still doesn't come up with what you want. While it's nice that he bent the rules and allowed another re-roll, to not do so is not TFG behaviour and if the Custodian did make the charge you can't then complain that the Relic is broken. It doesn't guarantee a charge, as shown in the OP, it can still fail.
Xenomancers wrote: I think you guys are missing the point. I am upset about the relic being over the top. A 3++ save relic is sufficient - it doesn't need to also reroll charges. I actually let him get away with doing a double reroll because on double 1's you would pick up both dice and reroll every time if you have a reroll charge.
Hes my friend I'm not going to punish him for a simple mistake like that. What is stupid is this relic. 3++ save does not need anything special on top of it. I actaully killed it no problem with a bunch of bolt rifles and a taurox with gatling cannon and auto cannons.
Then he's not the problem, the problem is you letting him ignore a fundamental rule that's been in place since 4th and letting him reroll everything until he makes the charge.
Are we really criticising someone for deciding not to be TFG? You realise the guy rolled double-1 for the initial charge, right? He's obviously going to want to use the relic reroll with that. Xenomancer did exactly what I (and I assume a large number of other people) would have done and allowed his opponent to go back and rectify an obvious mistake because he forgot about a rule that probably rarely comes up. The fact he rolled one dice first, then the second dice after that isn't relevant when the outcome is the same either way. It sounds like the game hadn't moved on to the Fight phase yet either so there's absolutely nothing affected by letting his opponent use the rule he's just remembered about.
Honestly that's nowhere near what TFG is. You re-roll once, and it still doesn't come up with what you want. While it's nice that he bent the rules and allowed another re-roll, to not do so is not TFG behaviour and if the Custodian did make the charge you can't then complain that the Relic is broken. It doesn't guarantee a charge, as shown in the OP, it can still fail.
The custodes player rolled his two dice, failed and knew he needed to re-roll, he didn't know his relic aswell as giving a 3++ also allowed him to reroll charges, so instead if using his free reroll of both dice he paid a CP to reroll 1 dice.
Was presumably checking his codex so when Xeno came back he allowed to reroll the second of the two dice. Hr didn't reroll the same dice twice. In a tournament fine raw don't allow it but against someone learning their army it's just allowing them to correct a mistake a more experienced player wouldn't have made.
Dawn eagles are quite strong and charictors on dawn eagles with the same inevitable relics are basically OP.
The nerf to fly has helpped a bit but it nerfef a lot of collateral damage in the process of addressing an issue that could have been addressed at a more targeted and finessed changes.
Slipspace wrote: GW really, really needs to stop handing out such good protection to so many characters, I agree. They also need to take a long, hard look at many of their relics because it's laughable how bad some of them are in comparison to others. The Shield Captain is the perfect example of a unit that's gone completely too far in one direction. You don't need T6, W7, 2+ save and a 3++ on top of the protection of being a character and the possibility of a 5+++, that's just insane and leaves very little valid counterplay. Dakka doesn't work because of the high Toughness and low-volume high-damage stuff doesn't work because of the 3++. The major difference between the Shield captain and the Smashcaptain is that the BA Captain is T4 with W5 so you actually can just hose him down with small arms once he's obliterated his target.
Agreed. And this is on top of characters being virtually impossible to target to begin with.
Honestly, I think even 4++ saves should be rare - rather than being the norm.
Slipspace wrote: GW really, really needs to stop handing out such good protection to so many characters, I agree. They also need to take a long, hard look at many of their relics because it's laughable how bad some of them are in comparison to others. The Shield Captain is the perfect example of a unit that's gone completely too far in one direction. You don't need T6, W7, 2+ save and a 3++ on top of the protection of being a character and the possibility of a 5+++, that's just insane and leaves very little valid counterplay. Dakka doesn't work because of the high Toughness and low-volume high-damage stuff doesn't work because of the 3++. The major difference between the Shield captain and the Smashcaptain is that the BA Captain is T4 with W5 so you actually can just hose him down with small arms once he's obliterated his target.
Agreed. And this is on top of characters being virtually impossible to target to begin with.
Honestly, I think even 4++ saves should be rare - rather than being the norm.
Yes, but you could also rephrase this and say "the main difference between a custode biker captain and a smashcaptain is that the custode biker captain gets 5 S6 AP-3 D3 damage attacks that reroll wounds, and that the Smashcaptain gets 5 S8 AP-3 flat 4 damage attacks with +1 to wound, who can also fight twice and gain D3 attacks such that he can reasonably one-round a knight."
Slipspace wrote: GW really, really needs to stop handing out such good protection to so many characters, I agree. They also need to take a long, hard look at many of their relics because it's laughable how bad some of them are in comparison to others. The Shield Captain is the perfect example of a unit that's gone completely too far in one direction. You don't need T6, W7, 2+ save and a 3++ on top of the protection of being a character and the possibility of a 5+++, that's just insane and leaves very little valid counterplay. Dakka doesn't work because of the high Toughness and low-volume high-damage stuff doesn't work because of the 3++. The major difference between the Shield captain and the Smashcaptain is that the BA Captain is T4 with W5 so you actually can just hose him down with small arms once he's obliterated his target.
Agreed. And this is on top of characters being virtually impossible to target to begin with.
Honestly, I think even 4++ saves should be rare - rather than being the norm.
Yes, but you could also rephrase this and say "the main difference between a custode biker captain and a smashcaptain is that the custode biker captain gets 5 S6 AP-3 D3 damage attacks that reroll wounds, and that the Smashcaptain gets 5 S8 AP-3 flat 4 damage attacks with +1 to wound, who can also fight twice and gain D3 attacks such that he can reasonably one-round a knight."
And the shield captain is reliant upon charging to have his re-rolls to wound, charge him with a rhino or some other semi durable unimportant unit and his offensive output falls off pretty sharpish.
If your'e looking for effective weapons vs this guy (as with all custodes), you should be looking at the medium to heavy weapons like auto cannons, heavy bolters, knight gatling cannons and missile launchers. Things that arent paying out of the nose for AP (anything past 1 ap becomes less efficient), Multi damage is the more important stat here.
If your'e looking for effective weapons vs this guy (as with all custodes), you should be looking at the medium to heavy weapons like auto cannons, heavy bolters, knight gatling cannons and missile launchers. Things that arent paying out of the nose for AP (anything past 1 ap becomes less efficient), Multi damage is the more important stat here.
If your'e looking for effective weapons vs this guy (as with all custodes), you should be looking at the medium to heavy weapons like auto cannons, heavy bolters, knight gatling cannons and missile launchers. Things that arent paying out of the nose for AP (anything past 1 ap becomes less efficient), Multi damage is the more important stat here.
Translation: Helverins.
As a Custodes player, I can confirm that both Predator Autocannons and Helverins are things that fill me with dread!
If your'e looking for effective weapons vs this guy (as with all custodes), you should be looking at the medium to heavy weapons like auto cannons, heavy bolters, knight gatling cannons and missile launchers. Things that arent paying out of the nose for AP (anything past 1 ap becomes less efficient), Multi damage is the more important stat here.
Translation: Helverins.
As a Custodes player, I can confirm that both Predator Autocannons and Helverins are things that fill me with dread!
My only regret is that the Mechanicum didn't slap autocannons into the sponsons!
If your'e looking for effective weapons vs this guy (as with all custodes), you should be looking at the medium to heavy weapons like auto cannons, heavy bolters, knight gatling cannons and missile launchers. Things that arent paying out of the nose for AP (anything past 1 ap becomes less efficient), Multi damage is the more important stat here.
Translation: Helverins.
As a Custodes player, I can confirm that both Predator Autocannons and Helverins are things that fill me with dread!
Except you can still hide the dawn eagle three behind anything else due to "Charictor" and neither of those can shoot at them.
If your'e looking for effective weapons vs this guy (as with all custodes), you should be looking at the medium to heavy weapons like auto cannons, heavy bolters, knight gatling cannons and missile launchers. Things that arent paying out of the nose for AP (anything past 1 ap becomes less efficient), Multi damage is the more important stat here.
Translation: Helverins.
As a Custodes player, I can confirm that both Predator Autocannons and Helverins are things that fill me with dread!
Except you can still hide the dawn eagle three behind anything else due to "Charictor" and neither of those can shoot at them.
At which point, you're actually complaining about soup, because in a custode army, you actually want to be shooting almost anything else (because everything else has more damage output/point with less durability/point)
If your'e looking for effective weapons vs this guy (as with all custodes), you should be looking at the medium to heavy weapons like auto cannons, heavy bolters, knight gatling cannons and missile launchers. Things that arent paying out of the nose for AP (anything past 1 ap becomes less efficient), Multi damage is the more important stat here.
Translation: Helverins.
As a Custodes player, I can confirm that both Predator Autocannons and Helverins are things that fill me with dread!
You know you get a 2+ save in cover against them right?
Amishprn86 wrote: MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.
Null Zone is garbage and you can't throw mortal wounds at characters so easily if they're screened.
Plus Jetbikes have enough speed to charge your Librarian and knock it out in a round. Are you a troll or something?
You know you get a 2+ save in cover against them right?
You know Helverins reliably put out close to ten shots per turn with AP and it only takes two of them to go through to kill a zoom cappy right?
Yeah they are great but they just arent great against 2+ saves in cover. They average 8 shots btw. Their biggest weakness is they can't fall back and shoot.
Amishprn86 wrote: MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.
Null Zone is garbage and you can't throw mortal wounds at characters so easily if they're screened.
Plus Jetbikes have enough speed to charge your Librarian and knock it out in a round. Are you a troll or something?
Welcome to a page ago, please go read what we all said, it locks down your important units so a MELEE INVUL CHARACTER cant assassinate your important stuff. You know there are also many DE players with 10-20 Grots? Talos? Wracks? with a 4++ too right? It helps against them as well. If you feel its bad then dont use it.
Also stratagems can deal MW's, even if its just a few, many times you need that little extra damage to kill something.
This character you speak of melee'ed his tank... idk about you but if a character is meleeing my back field tank, then i can easily kill it off, even if its a 3++, there is no screens.
Amishprn86 wrote: MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.
Null Zone is garbage and you can't throw mortal wounds at characters so easily if they're screened.
Plus Jetbikes have enough speed to charge your Librarian and knock it out in a round. Are you a troll or something?
More likely a user of custode jetbikes lol. In any case he's still got a 2+ save so it's not like Nullzone is an auto kill ether. Need Ap-3 to bring him to a 5+.
Amishprn86 wrote: MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.
Null Zone is garbage and you can't throw mortal wounds at characters so easily if they're screened.
Plus Jetbikes have enough speed to charge your Librarian and knock it out in a round. Are you a troll or something?
Welcome to a page ago, please go read what we all said, it locks down your important units so a MELEE INVUL CHARACTER cant assassinate your important stuff. You know there are also many DE players with 10-20 Grots? Talos? Wracks? with a 4++ too right? It helps against them as well. If you feel its bad then dont use it.
Also stratagems can deal MW's, even if its just a few, many times you need that little extra damage to kill something.
This character you speak of melee'ed his tank... idk about you but if a character is meleeing my back field tank, then i can easily kill it off, even if its a 3++, there is no screens.
Amishprn86 wrote: If it fails his charge then you have nothing to worry about....... kill the 1 screen it might have then shoot it off the table, its only 7 wounds.
Can't really fail charge when you get an icing on top reroll charge relic that ALSO gives you a 3++. It's dumb. Theres an actual relic in the codex that gives a 3++ and nothing else. How can 1 also give reroll charges? Don't say well only jetbike can take it...Only the best option can take the best relic? That's almost the opposite of how it should work.
I'm a bit shocked by the timing here. Those 3++ Custodes Captains with extra rules bling have been around for months now. I might be the only local Imperial player who doesn't run bike-borne Shield Captains.
The fact that they can't fly over models when they charge now is a big help. Also, iirc their save vs. Mortal Wounds is only a save vs. Psychic Powers. Mortals dealt outside of the psychic phase can't be stopped.
Amishprn86 wrote: Then its not a failed charge.... first you say when it fails then your saying its not failing. What is it a fail or a success?
FYI, Harlequins has a 3++ cant overwatch, is that too good too?
What about DE 4++/4+++? In which they can also re-roll charges
There are lots of good relics for characters.
If you are going to complain about melee relics, why not get more bubble wrap and MW bombs then?
Well when that Harlequin is already as good as a Jetbike Captain for the price let me know!
A Suit of Knives 3++ character has the potential to kill a 30man Ork unit within even attacking... Is that strong enough for you? Sure you need a power/stratagem to help, but can a captain do that? And its less than 100pts.
Before you start talking about nerfing invul saves you might want to reduce the ridiculous overwatch a properly equipped Russ can puke out with Defensive Gunners and the general lethality of shooting (and also assault while we're at it). Models need that 3++ to prevent them from being shot off the board instantly by a 4d3 overcharged plasma + lascannon Russ Executioner that is unchargeable by anything lighter than a Relic Contemptor thanks to Defensive Gunners (or chaff hordes like Boyz or Cultists but you need to be lucky enough to have brought an army that has those units).
And yes I'm -y because my toughest beatsticks get dropped by overwatch on a frighteningly consistent basis.
Amishprn86 wrote: Then its not a failed charge.... first you say when it fails then your saying its not failing. What is it a fail or a success?
FYI, Harlequins has a 3++ cant overwatch, is that too good too?
What about DE 4++/4+++? In which they can also re-roll charges
There are lots of good relics for characters.
If you are going to complain about melee relics, why not get more bubble wrap and MW bombs then?
Well when that Harlequin is already as good as a Jetbike Captain for the price let me know!
A Suit of Knives 3++ character has the potential to kill a 30man Ork unit within even attacking... Is that strong enough for you? Sure you need a power/stratagem to help, but can a captain do that? And its less than 100pts.
You mean the Relic where you had to roll a 1 to hit them and then you roll a 2+ for the mortal wound?
So is this 30 Ork Boyz an average or just a BS number you came up with? I'm gonna go with the latter.
No, its in the majority of cases when used in the way he's describing. The number comes from the max size unit - in theory, any size unit that can get into CC would be similarly impacted.
With -4-to-hit, the Orkz roll a 1 to hit 5 out of 6 times. Then mortal wound 5 out of 6 times. For every 7 attacks they make, they kill 5 of their own Boyz. So if they have 2+ attacks/model, it is highly unlikely that any of the models survive.
Now, pulling off a -4-to-hit actually takes quite a bit, so it's very gimmicky and not competitive. But that 30-man squad is probably dead.
Pandabeer wrote: Before you start talking about nerfing invul saves you might want to reduce the ridiculous overwatch a properly equipped Russ can puke out with Defensive Gunners and the general lethality of shooting (and also assault while we're at it). Models need that 3++ to prevent them from being shot off the board instantly by a 4d3 overcharged plasma + lascannon Russ Executioner that is unchargeable by anything lighter than a Relic Contemptor thanks to Defensive Gunners (or chaff hordes like Boyz or Cultists but you need to be lucky enough to have brought an army that has those units).
And yes I'm -y because my toughest beatsticks get dropped by overwatch on a frighteningly consistent basis.
Anyone that uses grinding advance in overwatch is cheating you.
Amishprn86 wrote: Then its not a failed charge.... first you say when it fails then your saying its not failing. What is it a fail or a success?
FYI, Harlequins has a 3++ cant overwatch, is that too good too?
What about DE 4++/4+++? In which they can also re-roll charges
There are lots of good relics for characters.
If you are going to complain about melee relics, why not get more bubble wrap and MW bombs then?
Well when that Harlequin is already as good as a Jetbike Captain for the price let me know!
A Suit of Knives 3++ character has the potential to kill a 30man Ork unit within even attacking... Is that strong enough for you? Sure you need a power/stratagem to help, but can a captain do that? And its less than 100pts.
Amishprn86 wrote: Then its not a failed charge.... first you say when it fails then your saying its not failing. What is it a fail or a success?
FYI, Harlequins has a 3++ cant overwatch, is that too good too?
What about DE 4++/4+++? In which they can also re-roll charges
There are lots of good relics for characters.
If you are going to complain about melee relics, why not get more bubble wrap and MW bombs then?
Well when that Harlequin is already as good as a Jetbike Captain for the price let me know!
A Suit of Knives 3++ character has the potential to kill a 30man Ork unit within even attacking... Is that strong enough for you? Sure you need a power/stratagem to help, but can a captain do that? And its less than 100pts.
You mean the Relic where you had to roll a 1 to hit them and then you roll a 2+ for the mortal wound?
So is this 30 Ork Boyz an average or just a BS number you came up with? I'm gonna go with the latter.
This is the thing where people say it's super duper DUUUPER easy for you to just cast one psychic power on the ork boyz, then another psychic power on the solitaire, then use a stratagem on the solitaire, then the ork player decides to play along and pile in his models to die instead of opting to not do that.
Yeah, if that happens, then through the combined efforts of about 300pts of harlequin characters you can one-round 30 ork boyz.
Which is why we see all those harlequin lists sweeping tournaments so often.
No one disagrees captains on Jetbikes are great, but of all the factions to care about them, IG should not. Adjust your tactics, prioritize targets, use screens. Bring in allies. Bullgryns with brute shields and power mauls backed up by an astropath improving their invul save and a priest for extra attacks will make custodes seriously reconsider charging the line of tanks they're guarding. Alternatively, throw them into a valkyrie and just grav chute them into his face.
It's 2+ invul saves and layered save nonsense that are the bane of all existence.
Pandabeer wrote: Before you start talking about nerfing invul saves you might want to reduce the ridiculous overwatch a properly equipped Russ can puke out with Defensive Gunners and the general lethality of shooting (and also assault while we're at it). Models need that 3++ to prevent them from being shot off the board instantly by a 4d3 overcharged plasma + lascannon Russ Executioner that is unchargeable by anything lighter than a Relic Contemptor thanks to Defensive Gunners (or chaff hordes like Boyz or Cultists but you need to be lucky enough to have brought an army that has those units).
And yes I'm -y because my toughest beatsticks get dropped by overwatch on a frighteningly consistent basis.
Anyone that uses grinding advance in overwatch is cheating you.
Custodes are just an example of an army that is un-fun to play against. It's more about hoping they fail saves. And they have command reroll, and also, their once per game reroll. It's just dumb, getting past a 3++ with 1 reroll per turn and an additional on-demand reroll.
In general, truly elite armies aren't fun, though. No one liked invisible death stars from 7th. And people don't like running into a list that fields nearly invincible models in 8th, like a fully buffed Mortarian, a CP fueled Knight, Custode balls.
The best thing about 8th is that most of the things in the game are totally killable... hopefully they don't walk away from this.
BaconCatBug wrote:So stop firing things that care about his invulnerable, overwhelm him with Dakka, ya zoggin git.
JohnnyHell wrote:Don’t shoot high AP at units with good invulnerable saves.
Shoot volume of fire with enough AP to put them on their invulnerable save instead of armour, probably even just -1 will do in a lot of cases, or -2. Make them roll more dice and more will fail.
The problem arises when we're talking about a T6 W7 2+sv unit. At that point the character has about the same resiliency against plinky volume of fire attacks as a battle tank does.
You need an absurd amount of dakka to kill a unit like that. Almost 200 BS3+ bolter shots (whereas you could Dakka a Predator Tank to death with 150 shots). If we're talking Assault Cannons, you're gonna need an average of 11 BS3+ Assault Cannons to take down such a Character. If the weapon has a -2 ASM, the Invul kicks in and makes anything with an ASM more than -1 pointless. The 3++ makes it so that the tanky character has a similar resiliency against big guns to boot. With the 3++ save, you need an average of 14 BS3+ Lascannons or Krak Missiles to kill the character (so while the assault cannons are better, it's not by very much, there is no single weapon type that's particularly effective, the character is stupid resilient against *everything*).
Vaktathi wrote: The problem arises when we're talking about a T6 W7 2+sv unit. At that point the character has about the same resiliency against plinky volume of fire attacks as a battle tank does.
It is something you always have to be prepared for, even if custodes were nerfed out of existence there are still a large variety of daemon princes rolling in at T6+, W8, with a variety of saves, psychic buffs, and relics.
Ever run into a 2++ rerollable tzeentch prince or a 2+/5++/4+++ wound reflecting nurgle prince? Real pain for armies without the tools.
You need an absurd amount of dakka to kill a unit like that.
2x 10 man Tactical Squads with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, Rapid-firing w/ Chapter Master+Lt. buffs. At least Shield Captains come to you!
Actually one of the best ways to deal with them that I've found is to charge them with Rhinos (or whatever, anything that can survive a turn in combat) since they can't fall back and charge in the subsequent turn.
Vaktathi wrote: The problem arises when we're talking about a T6 W7 2+sv unit. At that point the character has about the same resiliency against plinky volume of fire attacks as a battle tank does.
It is something you always have to be prepared for, even if custodes were nerfed out of existence there are still a large variety of daemon princes rolling in at T6+, W8, with a variety of saves, psychic buffs, and relics.
Ever run into a 2++ rerollable tzeentch prince or a 2+/5++/4+++ wound reflecting nurgle prince? Real pain for armies without the tools.
Neither of those things are possible. 2++ tzeentch saves were nerfed and nurgle has never been able to get 4+++, only 5+++ rerolling 1s.
Bharring wrote: It's amazing what a little charge here and there can do.
You should see what happens when a Rhino charges Spears.
True, although unfortunately Eldar have a Fall Back and Charge Stratagem. Still, if you can get multiple disruption charges off you can mitigate damage in some crucial turns.
Primortus wrote: Neither of those things are possible. 2++ tzeentch saves were nerfed and nurgle has never been able to get 4+++, only 5+++ rerolling 1s.
Am I misreading the revoltingly resilient warlord trait?
Primortus wrote: Neither of those things are possible. 2++ tzeentch saves were nerfed and nurgle has never been able to get 4+++, only 5+++ rerolling 1s.
Am I misreading the revoltingly resilient warlord trait?
No, but that is on a single model. Also to nitpick, that trait doesn't give you a 4+++, it gives you a 5+++ on D6+1.
Primortus wrote: Neither of those things are possible. 2++ tzeentch saves were nerfed and nurgle has never been able to get 4+++, only 5+++ rerolling 1s.
Am I misreading the revoltingly resilient warlord trait?
You're not, my mistake. I've completely forgotten any DG warlord trait other than Arch-contaminator exists.
You need an absurd amount of dakka to kill a unit like that.
2x 10 man Tactical Squads with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, Rapid-firing w/ Chapter Master+Lt. buffs. At least Shield Captains come to you!
Actually one of the best ways to deal with them that I've found is to charge them with Rhinos (or whatever, anything that can survive a turn in combat) since they can't fall back and charge in the subsequent turn.
Do people actually play this game, or is this board just full of people theorycrafting all the time? A Shield Captain is fast, has Fly, is T6 W7 save 2+/3++ (potentially also 5+++) and pretty much guarantees 12 S4 his from shooting and 5 hits in close combat with great AP and D3 damage, which re-roll to wound. The big problem, as people are pointing out in this very thread, is that you can't shoot them the majority of the time because they're characters with superb mibility, and if there is a genuine threat to them on the board they can either avoid it, thanks to their character protection or, in most cases, kill it before it can do anything. So while some units are effecive at shooting him to death (the 2 SM units backed up by two characters above are still pretty much 50/50 to kill him, BTW, considering CP re-rolls) the SC can just charge into them himself and delete them before they can do anything to him. You can't shut him down by charging because he hides behind a bunch of dudes until he needs to charge something himself, at which point he's likely already done what he needs to do, so charging a Rhino at him after the fact doesn't really help. Also, while unlikely, he's got a chance of killing the Rhino even when it charges him.
Primortus wrote: You're not, my mistake. I've completely forgotten any DG warlord trait other than Arch-contaminator exists.
My last game against DG was against mortarion and 5-6 princes IIRC, so it's fresh on my mind. A few tzeentch and slaanesh princes also find their way into most TS lists I play.
Whenever I see these threads I can't help but think of the custodes as the prince's boring cousins, reliable with their 2+ saves and swooping charges but lacking the varied shenanigans of the daemons.
You need an absurd amount of dakka to kill a unit like that.
2x 10 man Tactical Squads with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, Rapid-firing w/ Chapter Master+Lt. buffs. At least Shield Captains come to you!
Actually one of the best ways to deal with them that I've found is to charge them with Rhinos (or whatever, anything that can survive a turn in combat) since they can't fall back and charge in the subsequent turn.
Do people actually play this game, or is this board just full of people theorycrafting all the time? A Shield Captain is fast, has Fly, is T6 W7 save 2+/3++ (potentially also 5+++) and pretty much guarantees 12 S4 his from shooting and 5 hits in close combat with great AP and D3 damage, which re-roll to wound. The big problem, as people are pointing out in this very thread, is that you can't shoot them the majority of the time because they're characters with superb mibility, and if there is a genuine threat to them on the board they can either avoid it, thanks to their character protection or, in most cases, kill it before it can do anything. So while some units are effecive at shooting him to death (the 2 SM units backed up by two characters above are still pretty much 50/50 to kill him, BTW, considering CP re-rolls) the SC can just charge into them himself and delete them before they can do anything to him. You can't shut him down by charging because he hides behind a bunch of dudes until he needs to charge something himself, at which point he's likely already done what he needs to do, so charging a Rhino at him after the fact doesn't really help. Also, while unlikely, he's got a chance of killing the Rhino even when it charges him.
I've killed three of them in a turn with marines shooting them after being charged by them. My Tyranids tend to just gobble them up with massed attacks and smite spam.
You noticed that they have 5 attacks. That kills half a 10 man Tac squad, leaving behind the weapons that do most of the damage. Is killing bolter marines "doing what he needs to do"? Fly units are still blocked on the charge, and those bikes have fat bases to begin with. Screens and sacrificial charges are a great way to defend against them.
Honestly I'd be happy if my opponents decided to hang their Shield Captains back behind screens, so I can kill their souped IG tanks first while not worrying about losing models to Shield Captains at the same time.
Amishprn86 wrote: If it fails his charge then you have nothing to worry about....... kill the 1 screen it might have then shoot it off the table, its only 7 wounds.
Can't really fail charge when you get an icing on top reroll charge relic that ALSO gives you a 3++. It's dumb. Theres an actual relic in the codex that gives a 3++ and nothing else. How can 1 also give reroll charges? Don't say well only jetbike can take it...Only the best option can take the best relic? That's almost the opposite of how it should work.
Thematically it makes sense, even if mechanically it doesn't - this is a problem with uncosted Relics, I agree, as in previous editions I guarantee the bike would cost more than the helmet.
You need an absurd amount of dakka to kill a unit like that.
2x 10 man Tactical Squads with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, Rapid-firing w/ Chapter Master+Lt. buffs. At least Shield Captains come to you!
Actually one of the best ways to deal with them that I've found is to charge them with Rhinos (or whatever, anything that can survive a turn in combat) since they can't fall back and charge in the subsequent turn.
Do people actually play this game, or is this board just full of people theorycrafting all the time? A Shield Captain is fast, has Fly, is T6 W7 save 2+/3++ (potentially also 5+++) and pretty much guarantees 12 S4 his from shooting and 5 hits in close combat with great AP and D3 damage, which re-roll to wound. The big problem, as people are pointing out in this very thread, is that you can't shoot them the majority of the time because they're characters with superb mibility, and if there is a genuine threat to them on the board they can either avoid it, thanks to their character protection or, in most cases, kill it before it can do anything. So while some units are effecive at shooting him to death (the 2 SM units backed up by two characters above are still pretty much 50/50 to kill him, BTW, considering CP re-rolls) the SC can just charge into them himself and delete them before they can do anything to him. You can't shut him down by charging because he hides behind a bunch of dudes until he needs to charge something himself, at which point he's likely already done what he needs to do, so charging a Rhino at him after the fact doesn't really help. Also, while unlikely, he's got a chance of killing the Rhino even when it charges him.
I've killed three of them in a turn with marines shooting them after being charged by them. My Tyranids tend to just gobble them up with massed attacks and smite spam.
You noticed that they have 5 attacks. That kills half a 10 man Tac squad, leaving behind the weapons that do most of the damage. Is killing bolter marines "doing what he needs to do"? Fly units are still blocked on the charge, and those bikes have fat bases to begin with. Screens and sacrificial charges are a great way to defend against them.
Honestly I'd be happy if my opponents decided to hang their Shield Captains back behind screens, so I can kill their souped IG tanks first while not worrying about losing models to Shield Captains at the same time.
The point is, a SC is so mobile and tough he never needs to put himself in danger. There are so few actual threats to him they become a priority target for the rest of the army. There are plenty of ways to get them up the field and still screen them. If your opponent is somehow allowing you to wipe 3 after they've charged I'd suggest they don't have a clue what they're doing.
You haven't seen 7th ed HH Custodes, 3++ on captain that you can reroll and you also had eternal warrior just in case someone with instant death came What's not to like?
When you play vs them, have 25% more points and still loose because of how OP they are
Vaktathi wrote: The problem arises when we're talking about a T6 W7 2+sv unit. At that point the character has about the same resiliency against plinky volume of fire attacks as a battle tank does.
It is something you always have to be prepared for, even if custodes were nerfed out of existence there are still a large variety of daemon princes rolling in at T6+, W8, with a variety of saves, psychic buffs, and relics.
Ever run into a 2++ rerollable tzeentch prince or a 2+/5++/4+++ wound reflecting nurgle prince? Real pain for armies without the tools.
to the former, I have not, because they explicitly nerfed the 2++ rerollable tzeentch prince out of the game.
the_scotsman wrote: to the former, I have not, because they explicitly nerfed the 2++ rerollable tzeentch prince out of the game.
Well you missed an... interesting challenge. The combination of something needing mortal wounds to kill while also being one of the most able factions to stop their most common source 0 psychic attacks.
the_scotsman wrote: to the former, I have not, because they explicitly nerfed the 2++ rerollable tzeentch prince out of the game.
Well you missed an... interesting challenge. The combination of something needing mortal wounds to kill while also being one of the most able factions to stop their most common source 0 psychic attacks.
I feel like it'd be similar to playing, say, all of seventh edition, when it felt like every game something on the table was invisible, 2++ rerollable, or otherwise immune to all in-game influence or damage.
You need an absurd amount of dakka to kill a unit like that.
2x 10 man Tactical Squads with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, Rapid-firing w/ Chapter Master+Lt. buffs. At least Shield Captains come to you!
Actually one of the best ways to deal with them that I've found is to charge them with Rhinos (or whatever, anything that can survive a turn in combat) since they can't fall back and charge in the subsequent turn.
Do people actually play this game, or is this board just full of people theorycrafting all the time? A Shield Captain is fast, has Fly, is T6 W7 save 2+/3++ (potentially also 5+++) and pretty much guarantees 12 S4 his from shooting and 5 hits in close combat with great AP and D3 damage, which re-roll to wound. The big problem, as people are pointing out in this very thread, is that you can't shoot them the majority of the time because they're characters with superb mibility, and if there is a genuine threat to them on the board they can either avoid it, thanks to their character protection or, in most cases, kill it before it can do anything. So while some units are effecive at shooting him to death (the 2 SM units backed up by two characters above are still pretty much 50/50 to kill him, BTW, considering CP re-rolls) the SC can just charge into them himself and delete them before they can do anything to him. You can't shut him down by charging because he hides behind a bunch of dudes until he needs to charge something himself, at which point he's likely already done what he needs to do, so charging a Rhino at him after the fact doesn't really help. Also, while unlikely, he's got a chance of killing the Rhino even when it charges him.
I've killed three of them in a turn with marines shooting them after being charged by them. My Tyranids tend to just gobble them up with massed attacks and smite spam.
You noticed that they have 5 attacks. That kills half a 10 man Tac squad, leaving behind the weapons that do most of the damage. Is killing bolter marines "doing what he needs to do"? Fly units are still blocked on the charge, and those bikes have fat bases to begin with. Screens and sacrificial charges are a great way to defend against them.
Honestly I'd be happy if my opponents decided to hang their Shield Captains back behind screens, so I can kill their souped IG tanks first while not worrying about losing models to Shield Captains at the same time.
The point is, a SC is so mobile and tough he never needs to put himself in danger. There are so few actual threats to him they become a priority target for the rest of the army. There are plenty of ways to get them up the field and still screen them. If your opponent is somehow allowing you to wipe 3 after they've charged I'd suggest they don't have a clue what they're doing.
This is beginning to sound like the mythical blob of guard that can at once screen an entire army, yet still bring FRFSRF to bear fully on the optimal target. "SC can be screened and hidden, but they can always attack precisely what they need to since their opponent isn't screening or playing defensively."
If "There are so few actual threats", yet one of those threats can be Tactical Squads, I think you're projecting a bit of a boogeyman. Models with Plasma and rerolls abound in 8th edition.
Shield captains are tough, but they have few strong attacks. If you can force them to spend those attacks inefficiently you can get a foothold on the situation and blunt their effectiveness.
There will always be a counter to what any advice anyone gives you b.c you dont want a answer, you dont want help to counter it, you just want to be right and complain they are to strong.
You need an absurd amount of dakka to kill a unit like that.
2x 10 man Tactical Squads with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, Rapid-firing w/ Chapter Master+Lt. buffs. At least Shield Captains come to you!
Actually one of the best ways to deal with them that I've found is to charge them with Rhinos (or whatever, anything that can survive a turn in combat) since they can't fall back and charge in the subsequent turn.
Do people actually play this game, or is this board just full of people theorycrafting all the time? A Shield Captain is fast, has Fly, is T6 W7 save 2+/3++ (potentially also 5+++) and pretty much guarantees 12 S4 his from shooting and 5 hits in close combat with great AP and D3 damage, which re-roll to wound. The big problem, as people are pointing out in this very thread, is that you can't shoot them the majority of the time because they're characters with superb mibility, and if there is a genuine threat to them on the board they can either avoid it, thanks to their character protection or, in most cases, kill it before it can do anything. So while some units are effecive at shooting him to death (the 2 SM units backed up by two characters above are still pretty much 50/50 to kill him, BTW, considering CP re-rolls) the SC can just charge into them himself and delete them before they can do anything to him. You can't shut him down by charging because he hides behind a bunch of dudes until he needs to charge something himself, at which point he's likely already done what he needs to do, so charging a Rhino at him after the fact doesn't really help. Also, while unlikely, he's got a chance of killing the Rhino even when it charges him.
I've killed three of them in a turn with marines shooting them after being charged by them. My Tyranids tend to just gobble them up with massed attacks and smite spam.
You noticed that they have 5 attacks. That kills half a 10 man Tac squad, leaving behind the weapons that do most of the damage. Is killing bolter marines "doing what he needs to do"? Fly units are still blocked on the charge, and those bikes have fat bases to begin with. Screens and sacrificial charges are a great way to defend against them.
Honestly I'd be happy if my opponents decided to hang their Shield Captains back behind screens, so I can kill their souped IG tanks first while not worrying about losing models to Shield Captains at the same time.
The point is, a SC is so mobile and tough he never needs to put himself in danger. There are so few actual threats to him they become a priority target for the rest of the army. There are plenty of ways to get them up the field and still screen them. If your opponent is somehow allowing you to wipe 3 after they've charged I'd suggest they don't have a clue what they're doing.
This is beginning to sound like the mythical blob of guard that can at once screen an entire army, yet still bring FRFSRF to bear fully on the optimal target. "SC can be screened and hidden, but they can always attack precisely what they need to since their opponent isn't screening or playing defensively."
If "There are so few actual threats", yet one of those threats can be Tactical Squads, I think you're projecting a bit of a boogeyman. Models with Plasma and rerolls abound in 8th edition.
Shield captains are tough, but they have few strong attacks. If you can force them to spend those attacks inefficiently you can get a foothold on the situation and blunt their effectiveness.
You would require 18 Plasma shots rerolling everything to hit and 1's to wound to kill one Jetbike Captain with a 3++.
There will always be a counter to what any advice anyone gives you b.c you dont want a answer, you dont want help to counter it, you just want to be right and complain they are to strong.
Defending a Jetbike Captain is the same as defending Scatterbikes in 7th just because "you can kill them with counters". It's a gak argument and you should be ashamed of it.
There will always be a counter to what any advice anyone gives you b.c you dont want a answer, you dont want help to counter it, you just want to be right and complain they are to strong.
No, they want to complain about it until it gets nerfed in a future balancing action and then they can feel SO VINDICATED and like their losses up until this point DO NOT COUNT.
I think you're misunderstanding this crucial part of the current e-sports community culture. Balancing actions are necessary not to actually balance the game, but so the people who complain that the reason they lost was Imbalanced Thing can feel like those losses don't count when Imbalanced Thing is nerfed.
There will always be a counter to what any advice anyone gives you b.c you dont want a answer, you dont want help to counter it, you just want to be right and complain they are to strong.
No, they want to complain about it until it gets nerfed in a future balancing action and then they can feel SO VINDICATED and like their losses up until this point DO NOT COUNT.
I think you're misunderstanding this crucial part of the current e-sports community culture. Balancing actions are necessary not to actually balance the game, but so the people who complain that the reason they lost was Imbalanced Thing can feel like those losses don't count when Imbalanced Thing is nerfed.
I'll take it one step further and say the balancing actions can be simply "churn" to keep the dialogue about a product going and retain users. In 40K it's a double boon because you get people who chase the meta with extra purchases.
You need an absurd amount of dakka to kill a unit like that.
2x 10 man Tactical Squads with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, Rapid-firing w/ Chapter Master+Lt. buffs. At least Shield Captains come to you!
Actually one of the best ways to deal with them that I've found is to charge them with Rhinos (or whatever, anything that can survive a turn in combat) since they can't fall back and charge in the subsequent turn.
Do people actually play this game, or is this board just full of people theorycrafting all the time? A Shield Captain is fast, has Fly, is T6 W7 save 2+/3++ (potentially also 5+++) and pretty much guarantees 12 S4 his from shooting and 5 hits in close combat with great AP and D3 damage, which re-roll to wound. The big problem, as people are pointing out in this very thread, is that you can't shoot them the majority of the time because they're characters with superb mibility, and if there is a genuine threat to them on the board they can either avoid it, thanks to their character protection or, in most cases, kill it before it can do anything. So while some units are effecive at shooting him to death (the 2 SM units backed up by two characters above are still pretty much 50/50 to kill him, BTW, considering CP re-rolls) the SC can just charge into them himself and delete them before they can do anything to him. You can't shut him down by charging because he hides behind a bunch of dudes until he needs to charge something himself, at which point he's likely already done what he needs to do, so charging a Rhino at him after the fact doesn't really help. Also, while unlikely, he's got a chance of killing the Rhino even when it charges him.
I've killed three of them in a turn with marines shooting them after being charged by them. My Tyranids tend to just gobble them up with massed attacks and smite spam.
You noticed that they have 5 attacks. That kills half a 10 man Tac squad, leaving behind the weapons that do most of the damage. Is killing bolter marines "doing what he needs to do"? Fly units are still blocked on the charge, and those bikes have fat bases to begin with. Screens and sacrificial charges are a great way to defend against them.
Honestly I'd be happy if my opponents decided to hang their Shield Captains back behind screens, so I can kill their souped IG tanks first while not worrying about losing models to Shield Captains at the same time.
The point is, a SC is so mobile and tough he never needs to put himself in danger. There are so few actual threats to him they become a priority target for the rest of the army. There are plenty of ways to get them up the field and still screen them. If your opponent is somehow allowing you to wipe 3 after they've charged I'd suggest they don't have a clue what they're doing.
This is beginning to sound like the mythical blob of guard that can at once screen an entire army, yet still bring FRFSRF to bear fully on the optimal target. "SC can be screened and hidden, but they can always attack precisely what they need to since their opponent isn't screening or playing defensively."
If "There are so few actual threats", yet one of those threats can be Tactical Squads, I think you're projecting a bit of a boogeyman. Models with Plasma and rerolls abound in 8th edition.
Shield captains are tough, but they have few strong attacks. If you can force them to spend those attacks inefficiently you can get a foothold on the situation and blunt their effectiveness.
You would require 18 Plasma shots rerolling everything to hit and 1's to wound to kill one Jetbike Captain with a 3++.
Yeah those Tactical Squads aren't a threat.
10 man Tactical:
Plasma Cannon, Combi-Plasma, Plasma Gun: (3 x 2 x .888 x .777 x .333 x 2) = 2.7
14 Bolter shots = (14 x .888 x .4(ish) x .17) = 0.84 is a total of 3.6 wounds per squad. 2 full squads give you 7.2 wounds, which is a kill. (tossing Krak Grenades bumps it slightly) Custodes bike will often be able to re-roll one save, so you have a bit of backup and redundancy since that's how you want to do thing anyways. Or a guy dies overcharging and fires again because of the Relic Banner
Primortus wrote: Neither of those things are possible. 2++ tzeentch saves were nerfed and nurgle has never been able to get 4+++, only 5+++ rerolling 1s.
Am I misreading the revoltingly resilient warlord trait?
You're not, my mistake. I've completely forgotten any DG warlord trait other than Arch-contaminator exists.
It's very nice actually. Except if you fail literally all of your FNP rolls like I once did
"You mean they fall back and act as normal for 2 cp? Plus you take some free damage on your rhino (possibly lose your rhino)."
It takes some rather absurd luck for a unit of Spears to oneround a Rhino when wounding on 6s.
There will always be a counter to what any advice anyone gives you b.c you dont want a answer, you dont want help to counter it, you just want to be right and complain they are to strong.
No, they want to complain about it until it gets nerfed in a future balancing action and then they can feel SO VINDICATED and like their losses up until this point DO NOT COUNT.
I think you're misunderstanding this crucial part of the current e-sports community culture. Balancing actions are necessary not to actually balance the game, but so the people who complain that the reason they lost was Imbalanced Thing can feel like those losses don't count when Imbalanced Thing is nerfed.
I'll take it one step further and say the balancing actions can be simply "churn" to keep the dialogue about a product going and retain users. In 40K it's a double boon because you get people who chase the meta with extra purchases.
You need an absurd amount of dakka to kill a unit like that.
2x 10 man Tactical Squads with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, Rapid-firing w/ Chapter Master+Lt. buffs. At least Shield Captains come to you!
Actually one of the best ways to deal with them that I've found is to charge them with Rhinos (or whatever, anything that can survive a turn in combat) since they can't fall back and charge in the subsequent turn.
Do people actually play this game, or is this board just full of people theorycrafting all the time? A Shield Captain is fast, has Fly, is T6 W7 save 2+/3++ (potentially also 5+++) and pretty much guarantees 12 S4 his from shooting and 5 hits in close combat with great AP and D3 damage, which re-roll to wound. The big problem, as people are pointing out in this very thread, is that you can't shoot them the majority of the time because they're characters with superb mibility, and if there is a genuine threat to them on the board they can either avoid it, thanks to their character protection or, in most cases, kill it before it can do anything. So while some units are effecive at shooting him to death (the 2 SM units backed up by two characters above are still pretty much 50/50 to kill him, BTW, considering CP re-rolls) the SC can just charge into them himself and delete them before they can do anything to him. You can't shut him down by charging because he hides behind a bunch of dudes until he needs to charge something himself, at which point he's likely already done what he needs to do, so charging a Rhino at him after the fact doesn't really help. Also, while unlikely, he's got a chance of killing the Rhino even when it charges him.
I've killed three of them in a turn with marines shooting them after being charged by them. My Tyranids tend to just gobble them up with massed attacks and smite spam.
You noticed that they have 5 attacks. That kills half a 10 man Tac squad, leaving behind the weapons that do most of the damage. Is killing bolter marines "doing what he needs to do"? Fly units are still blocked on the charge, and those bikes have fat bases to begin with. Screens and sacrificial charges are a great way to defend against them.
Honestly I'd be happy if my opponents decided to hang their Shield Captains back behind screens, so I can kill their souped IG tanks first while not worrying about losing models to Shield Captains at the same time.
The point is, a SC is so mobile and tough he never needs to put himself in danger. There are so few actual threats to him they become a priority target for the rest of the army. There are plenty of ways to get them up the field and still screen them. If your opponent is somehow allowing you to wipe 3 after they've charged I'd suggest they don't have a clue what they're doing.
This is beginning to sound like the mythical blob of guard that can at once screen an entire army, yet still bring FRFSRF to bear fully on the optimal target. "SC can be screened and hidden, but they can always attack precisely what they need to since their opponent isn't screening or playing defensively."
If "There are so few actual threats", yet one of those threats can be Tactical Squads, I think you're projecting a bit of a boogeyman. Models with Plasma and rerolls abound in 8th edition.
Shield captains are tough, but they have few strong attacks. If you can force them to spend those attacks inefficiently you can get a foothold on the situation and blunt their effectiveness.
You would require 18 Plasma shots rerolling everything to hit and 1's to wound to kill one Jetbike Captain with a 3++.
Yeah those Tactical Squads aren't a threat.
10 man Tactical:
Plasma Cannon, Combi-Plasma, Plasma Gun: (3 x 2 x .888 x .777 x .333 x 2) = 2.7
14 Bolter shots = (14 x .888 x .4(ish) x .17) = 0.84 is a total of 3.6 wounds per squad. 2 full squads give you 7.2 wounds, which is a kill. (tossing Krak Grenades bumps it slightly) Custodes bike will often be able to re-roll one save, so you have a bit of backup and redundancy since that's how you want to do thing anyways. Or a guy dies overcharging and fires again because of the Relic Banner
That assumes Rapid Fire range and characters, and no fallback and shoot via Ultramarines.
I also haven't a single clue how you got that math for the Plasma weapons. 5.3 land, 4.1 go through, and that's a total of 1.4, which is doubled to what you posted.
So you're clearly not grasping how bad of a method this is.
"That assumes Rapid Fire range"
You typically get one round of RF range before charges.
" and characters,"
Agree on that point. Exposing him tends to be hard. That said, what's he screening with?
"and no fallback and shoot via Ultramarines."
UM is an *upside*. You unload first. He charges a unit. It falls back. You shoot again. Odds are he didn't take out the Plas guys in one round of CC.
"I also haven't a single clue how you got that math for the Plasma weapons. 5.3 land, 4.1 go through, and that's a total of 1.4, which is doubled to what you posted."
Overcharged gets 2.7 by my numbers, too.
There will always be a counter to what any advice anyone gives you b.c you dont want a answer, you dont want help to counter it, you just want to be right and complain they are to strong.
No, they want to complain about it until it gets nerfed in a future balancing action and then they can feel SO VINDICATED and like their losses up until this point DO NOT COUNT.
I think you're misunderstanding this crucial part of the current e-sports community culture. Balancing actions are necessary not to actually balance the game, but so the people who complain that the reason they lost was Imbalanced Thing can feel like those losses don't count when Imbalanced Thing is nerfed.
I'll take it one step further and say the balancing actions can be simply "churn" to keep the dialogue about a product going and retain users. In 40K it's a double boon because you get people who chase the meta with extra purchases.
You need an absurd amount of dakka to kill a unit like that.
2x 10 man Tactical Squads with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, Rapid-firing w/ Chapter Master+Lt. buffs. At least Shield Captains come to you!
Actually one of the best ways to deal with them that I've found is to charge them with Rhinos (or whatever, anything that can survive a turn in combat) since they can't fall back and charge in the subsequent turn.
Do people actually play this game, or is this board just full of people theorycrafting all the time? A Shield Captain is fast, has Fly, is T6 W7 save 2+/3++ (potentially also 5+++) and pretty much guarantees 12 S4 his from shooting and 5 hits in close combat with great AP and D3 damage, which re-roll to wound. The big problem, as people are pointing out in this very thread, is that you can't shoot them the majority of the time because they're characters with superb mibility, and if there is a genuine threat to them on the board they can either avoid it, thanks to their character protection or, in most cases, kill it before it can do anything. So while some units are effecive at shooting him to death (the 2 SM units backed up by two characters above are still pretty much 50/50 to kill him, BTW, considering CP re-rolls) the SC can just charge into them himself and delete them before they can do anything to him. You can't shut him down by charging because he hides behind a bunch of dudes until he needs to charge something himself, at which point he's likely already done what he needs to do, so charging a Rhino at him after the fact doesn't really help. Also, while unlikely, he's got a chance of killing the Rhino even when it charges him.
I've killed three of them in a turn with marines shooting them after being charged by them. My Tyranids tend to just gobble them up with massed attacks and smite spam.
You noticed that they have 5 attacks. That kills half a 10 man Tac squad, leaving behind the weapons that do most of the damage. Is killing bolter marines "doing what he needs to do"? Fly units are still blocked on the charge, and those bikes have fat bases to begin with. Screens and sacrificial charges are a great way to defend against them.
Honestly I'd be happy if my opponents decided to hang their Shield Captains back behind screens, so I can kill their souped IG tanks first while not worrying about losing models to Shield Captains at the same time.
The point is, a SC is so mobile and tough he never needs to put himself in danger. There are so few actual threats to him they become a priority target for the rest of the army. There are plenty of ways to get them up the field and still screen them. If your opponent is somehow allowing you to wipe 3 after they've charged I'd suggest they don't have a clue what they're doing.
This is beginning to sound like the mythical blob of guard that can at once screen an entire army, yet still bring FRFSRF to bear fully on the optimal target. "SC can be screened and hidden, but they can always attack precisely what they need to since their opponent isn't screening or playing defensively."
If "There are so few actual threats", yet one of those threats can be Tactical Squads, I think you're projecting a bit of a boogeyman. Models with Plasma and rerolls abound in 8th edition.
Shield captains are tough, but they have few strong attacks. If you can force them to spend those attacks inefficiently you can get a foothold on the situation and blunt their effectiveness.
You would require 18 Plasma shots rerolling everything to hit and 1's to wound to kill one Jetbike Captain with a 3++.
Yeah those Tactical Squads aren't a threat.
10 man Tactical:
Plasma Cannon, Combi-Plasma, Plasma Gun: (3 x 2 x .888 x .777 x .333 x 2) = 2.7
14 Bolter shots = (14 x .888 x .4(ish) x .17) = 0.84 is a total of 3.6 wounds per squad. 2 full squads give you 7.2 wounds, which is a kill. (tossing Krak Grenades bumps it slightly) Custodes bike will often be able to re-roll one save, so you have a bit of backup and redundancy since that's how you want to do thing anyways. Or a guy dies overcharging and fires again because of the Relic Banner
That assumes Rapid Fire range and characters, and no fallback and shoot via Ultramarines.
I also haven't a single clue how you got that math for the Plasma weapons. 5.3 land, 4.1 go through, and that's a total of 1.4, which is doubled to what you posted.
So you're clearly not grasping how bad of a method this is.
You can tell me it's a bad method all you like, but since I've used it multiple times to my benefit I'll ignore that advice.
3 Plasma weapons is 6 shots, times .888 for rerolls, x .777 for reroll 1s to wound, x .333 for 3++ save. x2 for 2 wounds = 2.75
Bharring wrote: Insectum:
Why not 4 units of PG, Combi, 3xBolter Doods? Or Combat Squadding?
I'd think you'd lose less when one is assaulted, although it takes less dakka to kill an individual PG.
Just wondering what you've thought of that?
You could easily do the Plasma, Combi-Plasma in a five-man and just multiply that a number of times, but I like the flexibility inherent in the 10 man allowing me to change deployments from game to game. For Assaults, it depends on what you're assaulted by, for one. Ten man squads give that extra "padding" before the first Special casualty, as you noted. They also Overwatch more and benefit more via Stratagems. They're also easier to manage buffs using auras, as you can string them out. The extra range on the heavy can be crucial for effective saturation on a desired target. They give up fewer kill points and can deploy with fewer drops, if it's an issue. And as above, I can always split them into multiple five-mans if I want.
Plus it's how I have the badges on their shoulder pads painted, and it "feels right".
Marines also have a ridiculous number of other options for Plasma-on-power-armored-guys if I want to focus them to a greater degree. It's practically stupid how many options there are.
5 Man Tacs
Sternguard
Command Squads
Assault Squads with Plasma Pistols
Vanguard with dual Plasma Pistols
Interceptors
Hellblasters of various flavors
Devastators
Three man Bike teams
anything I miss?
I've been starting to think about re-arming my Sternguard with combi-plas like I had in 6th ed, or doing up a Command Squad with Plasma/Storm Shields or whatever. But in truth I'll probably start out by finishing up the last two Tacticals so my company is done, then maybe I'll deploy them as concentrated 5-man teams. Dunno. We'll see if anything exciting comes of Chapter Approved.
).
-y because my toughest beatsticks get dropped by overwatch on a frighteningly consistent basis.
