So the first primarch has returned, and more are probably coming. The aeldari have received a possible "get-out-of-jail-free" card in the form of Ynnead, and the tyranid threat has been diminished by the the great rift.
Put short, there is hope.
But what do you think of this change in the setting? Good, bad?
Tyranid Horde wrote:Changing the setting into a progressing story in my opinion was the worst move for the lore.
I think leaving the setting on the precipice of all hell breaking loose was much better than hell breaking loose.
Obviously I'm not a fan, but that's partly due to the poor writing.
I'm quite happy that the narrative is moving again, even if I don't agree with all the writing decisions, especially since resetting the story back to before the Eye of Terror campaign didn't stop the 40k "story" progressing anyway -- just more and more events were being crammed into M40.999 instead. That they only reset the clock to one-minute-to-midnight after Medusa V made the setting feel particularly stagnant as they rowed back on not one but two global campaigns.
I by far preferred the eye to eye with disaster feel of the older lore. When there's hope, the scope is changed in my opinion: you don't see 40K as the events taking place in a galaxy with a heavy atmosphere, on the verge of annihilation, but you want to see those new characters and possilities for survival unfold. The new setting kind of wants a sequel because otherwise it feels totally plain and unfinished.
I don't like it whatsoever as I loved the masterly crafted dead end sandbox that 40k used to be. Plus the great rift has made it difficult for my co-players to fancy our armies fighting at several places of the galaxy.
I also think progressing the story was a bad idea. Something that drew me to the game in the first place was that everything was on the brink of disaster and there was no hope of it getting better.
You just fought to slow down the inevitable collapse of everything, and, to me, you actually do fight to slow it down by playing the game. You and your friends advance the story through your own gameplay and your own narrative.
It all comes back to the fact that I think it was a bad idea to bring hope into the narrative. It just defeats the whole purpose of the setting in my opinion.
I don't think the lore is any lighter. Guilliman is stuck in an endless game of whack-a-mole, Chaos is stronger than ever and most of the xenos races are still doing what they've veen doing.
I quite like the idea that the tyranids as the galaxies white blood cells who've turned up to eat away at the cancer though. They've been my main faction since 2nd and the change is refreshing. I like my chaotic good tyranids.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment
Also this hope is appearing at the same time as Cadia has fallen and the Imperium is almost set to be cut in half and is basically hinged on a whisker of a single world that has already been sieged by the very forces of the greatest legion of chaos?
And alongside the Primarchs are the Fallen Primarchs returning, plus the Tyranids are building a huge world-weapon-thing that no one knows what it will do.
Forgive me but this hope you speak of sounds rather fleeting
If it was done properly, they could have used the "hope" to intensify the despair of the situation. Can't have true despair and dread without hope, after all. The problem though is they haven't gotten there yet. Like, yeah sure, the Imperium is split in two and Cadia is in ruins, but things are starting to look up, aren't they? The primarchs are coming back, and the Imperium is getting better troops and equipment. That still sounds pretty hopeful. Now, if they went and said "ok, the Imperium gets new stuff, but so does everyone else, so it really doesn't matter. Oh, and Guilleman lost an arm trying to upper cut a Heirophant. Like an idiot" then yeah, that would be fleeting. I think they did it out of order, really. Didn't they introduce Cawl's Primaris marines and Guilleman during Cadia? They should have done it a while before hand, and start building up how great they were, and then when Cadia finally happens they get dunked on. That's more like proper despair. Doing it at the same time just doesn't have the same degree of impact.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Didn't they introduce Cawl's Primaris marines and Guilleman during Cadia?
No, both happened after. Guilliman's resurrection happened after both the Fall of Cadia and Ynnead's awakening with the Primaris showing up in the 100+ years span after the Cicatrix split the Imperium and the Dark Imperium to "present" day. Both were desperate acts in response to Abbadon's actions. It's all false hope to stem the tide. The Imperium isn't exactly making any headway in actually regaining their lost territory in those 100+ years.
the Tyranids are building a huge world-weapon-thing that no one knows what it will do.
Forgive me but this hope you speak of sounds rather fleeting
The silent king is intent on killing the tyranids to "save" the galaxy. The primaris marines are here with new tech, while Ghazghkull has assembled a fleet of a million ships.. its all on a knifes edge. But there is hope.
Im not sure I like the new lore, but the fact that the factions are not just auto-boned now, I really like.
Winning or losing a battle dident mean much before, since they were bound to lose in the end, no matter what.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Didn't they introduce Cawl's Primaris marines and Guilleman during Cadia?
No, both happened after. Guilliman's resurrection happened after both the Fall of Cadia and Ynnead's awakening with the Primaris showing up in the 100+ years span after the Cicatrix split the Imperium and the Dark Imperium to "present" day. Both were desperate acts in response to Abbadon's actions. It's all false hope to stem the tide. The Imperium isn't exactly making any headway in actually regaining their lost territory in those 100+ years.
In "the devastation of ball", Guilliman showed up with his primaris mariens shortly after the rift was formed. We are talking days. No sure how that fits with the rest of the timeline.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Didn't they introduce Cawl's Primaris marines and Guilleman during Cadia?
No, both happened after. Guilliman's resurrection happened after both the Fall of Cadia and Ynnead's awakening with the Primaris showing up in the 100+ years span after the Cicatrix split the Imperium and the Dark Imperium to "present" day. Both were desperate acts in response to Abbadon's actions.
Yeah, so it is the exact opposite of how they should have done it.
"Cadia falls! Now all hope truly is lost! But, wait! A primarch returns with even more powerful space marines! Hooray! We are saved!"
That is the kind of hope stuff that I think is bad. If they would have done it in the opposite order(like mentioned above) it could have worked out pretty well.
"A primarch has returned to save us with even more powerful space marines! He'll show that silly despoiler! But, wait! Cadia falls!? How can this be!? We have a primarch and new space marines. It is all pointless! Nothing we do can make a diferrence. We are doomed!"
That is a much better way of implementing new stuff and keeping the setting a hopeless warzone of despair.
"A primarch has returned to save us with even more powerful space marines! He'll show that silly despoiler! But, wait! Cadia falls!? How can this be!? We have a primarch and new space marines. It is all pointless! Nothing we do can make a diferrence. We are doomed!"
I just dont understand why that would be more interesting?
It just means that everything is pointless. How is that great?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Didn't they introduce Cawl's Primaris marines and Guilleman during Cadia?
No, both happened after. Guilliman's resurrection happened after both the Fall of Cadia and Ynnead's awakening with the Primaris showing up in the 100+ years span after the Cicatrix split the Imperium and the Dark Imperium to "present" day. Both were desperate acts in response to Abbadon's actions. It's all false hope to stem the tide. The Imperium isn't exactly making any headway in actually regaining their lost territory in those 100+ years.
Oh wow, its even more poorly handled than I remembered. So yeah, my point still stands, they should have introduced Roboute and Friends before Cadia.
"A primarch has returned to save us with even more powerful space marines! He'll show that silly despoiler! But, wait! Cadia falls!? How can this be!? We have a primarch and new space marines. It is all pointless! Nothing we do can make a diferrence. We are doomed!"
I just dont understand why that would be more interesting?
It just means that everything is pointless. How is that great?
Welcome to 40k. There's only war, everyone's gonna die, hope is just a prelude to disappointment.
There's a reason why Nurgle, Chaos God of despair, is one of the Big Four.
Welcome to 40k. There's only war, everyone's gonna die, hope is just a prelude to disappointment.
There's a reason why Nurgle, Chaos God of despair, is one of the Big Four.
I have always loved the different factions. But the setting being grimdark for the sake of being grimdark makes for pretty gakky storytelling.
Welcome to 40k. There's only war, everyone's gonna die, hope is just a prelude to disappointment.
There's a reason why Nurgle, Chaos God of despair, is one of the Big Four.
I have always loved the different factions. But the setting being grimdark for the sake of being grimdark makes for pretty gakky storytelling.
Exactly.
Plus lets be honest even back in the day there was always hope. There was always a new weapon, a hero, a champion, a major battle etc... Sure the stakes might be higher now, but there's always been a glimmer of hope in the setting. Even down in the pits of Necromunda there are stories of loyalty, hope, love and more. Characters don't always lose in the setting, they sometimes win.
Grimdark is the theme and style but its not the overarching only pathway to their stories, if it were it would be phenomenally depressing a setting. Also don't forget all the factions advance their tech - tau have huge weapons the like of which they never had before; Necrons have awakened knight sized titans for the battlefield; etc.. sure marines have Primaris now, but that's only just keeping them in line iwth new evolutions of Tyranids and vast uncoutable swarms of orks that refuse to be purged from worlds.
It's still grim dark its just not totally one dimensional grim dark.
Yeah, I really do not get the whole "oh no, they made my grimdark too noblebright" viewpoint. That faint scent of hope just makes the crushing stench of despair all the sweeter as it strangles the galaxy.
I do not mind hope, and story progress is good. I just think they are taking it in wonky ways.
A lot of it just seems to be forgetting how big a galaxy should be, and how that size can set up for some really tense story’s.
The ultramarines cannot be everywhere, even space marine chapters cannot be.
The imperium can be stretched thin and still powerful as they plan and manipulate the galaxy in there favour. Or try to.
Tyranids could be the threat from beyond the stars held off in parts of the galaxy, and chaos the more pressing threat now, and they both only meet rarely in battles unknown to the imperium.
The primarchs in tone I think are just to powerful for the setting, with there power toned down they could still be a rally point for the imperium. It just starts to sound like a joke, 40k the parody that’s becoming a bit of a parody of itself.
It’s the same reason people thought backflipping terminators are silly, but I think that is where a lot of it kinda ends up without someone raining the writing in a little across the board.
I think it is why ward allways irk me in his writing, it allways felt he was just ramping it up to 11 and it coming off more as the 12 year old edgie story rather than so,e of the depth the 40k universe at least try to have.
It’s not even his fault if that is what the environment he is writing in wants.
I personally don't mind the setting being "lighter". It's hardly sunshine and rainbows first of all, but every action being pointless is (in my opinion) as pointless as every action being a virtually guarenteed win like in many stories/comics/etc. Plus according to the books the Imperium in its past has seen times of growth along with times of hardship, so the ebb and flow of hope and despair is far better in my opinion as we see those moments play out before us.
Having said that, I do take umbrage in a few parts of how things played out, and I personally like the old Mk VII/"old marine" aesthetic more than the Primaris aesthetic, but it doesn't bother me so much that I still enjoy the setting! After all there's always something you won't like, and I understand why some people don't like the changes but for me personally they are overall a positive.
ikeulhu wrote: Yeah, I really do not get the whole "oh no, they made my grimdark too noblebright" viewpoint. That faint scent of hope just makes the crushing stench of despair all the sweeter as it strangles the galaxy.
Yeah, but GW isn't delivering on the despair. Guilleman really needs to lose a limb at some point, or some Primaris need to turn to chaos. You'd think Fabius Bile would have made something by now.
"A primarch has returned to save us with even more powerful space marines! He'll show that silly despoiler! But, wait! Cadia falls!? How can this be!? We have a primarch and new space marines. It is all pointless! Nothing we do can make a diferrence. We are doomed!"
I just dont understand why that would be more interesting?
It just means that everything is pointless. How is that great?
To me the story of 40K is the story of the end times for humanity. It is a culmination of all the glory and possibilities that the past set before us and how humanity totally blew it.
All of the political in-fighting, dogma, and hubris that success brings has brought us to the current state of 40K. Nothing ever really gets done because of all of the silly bureaucracy, and everyone fears advancement so nothing ever improves. Workers rights don't improve, technology doesn't improve, the state of the government never improves.
Sure there are victories here and there. The imperium may retake a world held by orks and humans can begin living there in relative peace again, but for each of those victories two more imperial worlds fall. Tyranids devour a planet, chaos overwhelms a population, or T'au expand their empire into imperial worlds.
The only reason the imperium hasn't totally collapsed already is because it is so vast it will take another ten-thousand years to destroy everything it has built.
The interesting thing about it is that it shows what can happen when you are full of yourself and you refuse to compromise on anything. How we got to this point is where the story is told. The Horus Heresy marks the beginning of the downfall. The stories I want to hear are the ones like that that set the stage for the 41st millennium. Warhammer 40K(again, to me) is the end of the story. I don't want a set up for something more because this is already the end.
The table top game we play falls into this setting: the end times. At this point there is only war. War that just delays the inevitable collapse of everything. A victory here may buy humanity an extra hundred years. A big victory there may buy them an extra millennium, but the fact of the matter remains that humanity will collapse. It is only a matter of time.
Plus lets be honest even back in the day there was always hope.
I disagree. Both Dante and Anval Thawn have talked about how the imperium was crumbling. And the former eldar dexes would always underlined that "these guys are fethed" etc etc.
Grimdark is the theme and style but its not the overarching only pathway to their stories, if it were it would be phenomenally depressing a setting.
But that is exactly what most of the setting is? People are living under horrible conditions, and human life has zero value.
Take the novel warlord: fury of the dod machine as an example.
Spoiler:
We follow a princeps, a priest and a general. They all survived, but the priest, the general and the rest of the world are strealized for having witnessed chaos, and the entire planet is turned into an internment camp.
Why should I give a rats ass about a story like that? There was NO payoff.
And this is the plotline in so many of the storys set in the universe. The hero saves the day, and the civilians are plunged right back into the gutter. Pointless.
Welcome to 40k. There's only war, everyone's gonna die, hope is just a prelude to disappointment. There's a reason why Nurgle, Chaos God of despair, is one of the Big Four.
I have always loved the different factions. But the setting being grimdark for the sake of being grimdark makes for pretty gakky storytelling.
Only if you handle it poorly. A Canticle for Leibowitz is pretty bleak, and I would hardly call that book gakky. Ditto for 1984 or Brave New World. If you just go "lol, everyone dies due to rocks" then yeah, its gak. 40k is basically a dystopian black comedy, that parodies the dark parts of human history. Trying to make it "noblebright" without any trade-off undermines that element of the setting.
To me, its like a joke - good thing happens, get lauded as the best thing since the Emperor, then something happens that sets it back to square 1. That's the punch line. GW still hasn't gotten to the punch-line yet after like, 2 years. Its basically no different than the villain or hero going "I am the best thing ever!" and then getting dunked on. Like that scientist guy from Golden Eye. Its a joke.
ikeulhu wrote: Yeah, I really do not get the whole "oh no, they made my grimdark too noblebright" viewpoint. That faint scent of hope just makes the crushing stench of despair all the sweeter as it strangles the galaxy.
Yeah, but GW isn't delivering on the despair. Guilleman really needs to lose a limb at some point, or some Primaris need to turn to chaos.
You'd think Fabius Bile would have made something by now.
That is fair, although I personally think GW is taking the slow build approach to it. The Dark Imperium and Plague War books are slowly hinting towards some interesting friction between Guilliman and the Ecclesiarchy, and the steady conversion of Iax into Pestiliax is definitely not a ray of sunshine in the setting. I also would be surprised if we eventually do not see something cooked up by Fabius in response to the Primaris. Now I could be wrong and GW may just leave us waiting for the axe to drop, but to me there is currently still enough despair going around to fairly represent the setting.
ikeulhu wrote: Yeah, I really do not get the whole "oh no, they made my grimdark too noblebright" viewpoint. That faint scent of hope just makes the crushing stench of despair all the sweeter as it strangles the galaxy.
Yeah, but GW isn't delivering on the despair. Guilleman really needs to lose a limb at some point, or some Primaris need to turn to chaos. You'd think Fabius Bile would have made something by now.
That is fair, although I personally think GW is taking the slow build approach to it. The Dark Imperium and Plague War books are slowly hinting towards some interesting friction between Guilliman and the Ecclesiarchy, and the steady conversion of Iax into Pestiliax is definitely not a ray of sunshine in the setting. I also would be surprised if we eventually do not see something cooked up by Fabius in response to the Primaris. Now I could be wrong and GW may just leave us waiting for the axe to drop, but to me there is currently still enough despair going around to fairly represent the setting.
Yeah, maybe. That would go with what I just talked about, after all. Maybe the plan is to start with something disastrous (Cadia), slowly introduce something good as contrast (Primarchs), and then introduce something disastrous again (Idk, looted Emperor or something.) They are taking their time though. Then again, GW has always worked slow.
ikeulhu wrote: Yeah, I really do not get the whole "oh no, they made my grimdark too noblebright" viewpoint. That faint scent of hope just makes the crushing stench of despair all the sweeter as it strangles the galaxy.
Yeah, but GW isn't delivering on the despair. Guilleman really needs to lose a limb at some point, or some Primaris need to turn to chaos.
You'd think Fabius Bile would have made something by now.
That is fair, although I personally think GW is taking the slow build approach to it. The Dark Imperium and Plague War books are slowly hinting towards some interesting friction between Guilliman and the Ecclesiarchy, and the steady conversion of Iax into Pestiliax is definitely not a ray of sunshine in the setting. I also would be surprised if we eventually do not see something cooked up by Fabius in response to the Primaris. Now I could be wrong and GW may just leave us waiting for the axe to drop, but to me there is currently still enough despair going around to fairly represent the setting.
Yeah, maybe. That would go with what I just talked about, after all.
Maybe the plan is to start with something disastrous (Cadia), slowly introduce something good as contrast (Primarchs), and then introduce something disastrous again (Idk, looted Emperor or something.)
They are taking their time though. Then again, GW has always worked slow.
No, the plan is stagnation again. They proved that with Vigilus. The utter nonsense they pulled with Marneus Calgar not getting offed just proves that GW is narritivly the same as it ever was. I said when the whole Vigilus thing started getting hyped up it would lead to nothing of consequence and low and behold everything is as it was except Calgar got new armor. Like he could have lost an arm or one of his power fists got permanently destroyed to mark a major change but all that happened was that his old design got phased out for Primaris Calgar.
The bigger issue is that GW's writing and execution of background ideas over the last decade or so has been...well, lacking, as opposed to the 40k universe really being brighter.
Sim-Life wrote: No, the plan is stagnation again. They proved that with Vigilus. The utter nonsense they pulled with Marneus Calgar not getting offed just proves that GW is narritivly the same as it ever was. I said when the whole Vigilus thing started getting hyped up it would lead to nothing of consequence and low and behold everything is as it was except Calgar got new armor. Like he could have lost an arm or one of his power fists got permanently destroyed to mark a major change but all that happened was that his old design got phased out for Primaris Calgar.
Calgar already lost all four of his limbs and an eye, busting up his internal organs is the furthest they could really go without killing him. It might be cool if he ends up in a dreadnought as a result, which they could do without benching the new primaris mini by following a similar approach to the old WHFB Mannfred von Carstein, where he had two profiles to represent him at different points in time.
They hyped up Vigilus as being too critical for it end up as anything other than an Armageddon/Cadia 2.0. It'd be great if they'd start setting these campaigns in important but not so "omg critically vital!" systems and planets that anything other than a stalemate/Imperial victory would rock the setting too hard.
Without going into a long winded post; always moving sideways and NOT forward was the correct answer.
What I believe should be taken away from all of this... GW needs to exercise restraint when listening to the GW fan base. Listening to your customers is good. Giving them everything they ask for is bad.
In "the devastation of ball", Guilliman showed up with his primaris mariens shortly after the rift was formed. We are talking days. No sure how that fits with the rest of the timeline.
Im pretty sure that for the Blood Angels, it was shortly after the Rift Opened, for Guilliman it was considerably longer.
For everything which has advanced, not a great deal has actually changed.
Cadia fell, and Chaos flooded the galaxy... but the Imperium survived pretty much intact.
The Cicatrix Maledictum has cut the galaxy in two... but important characters seem to be able to cross from one side to the other just fine.
A new Eldar godling was birthed, draining energy from the infinity circuits and Biel Tan was shattered... but the Eldar seem to be just carrying on much as normal.
Necrons invaded forge worlds across the Imperium... but what ever even happened to that storyline..?
A Primarch returned... and there was no schism within the Ecclesiarchy, the High Lords were broadly ok with it, and nobody asked any awkward questions about the last ten millennia.
In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war, and whatever happens you will not be missed... but nobody really important has actually died in the last 300 years or so, so it doesn't matter.
In "the devastation of ball", Guilliman showed up with his primaris mariens shortly after the rift was formed. We are talking days. No sure how that fits with the rest of the timeline.
Im pretty sure that for the Blood Angels, it was shortly after the Rift Opened, for Guilliman it was considerably longer.
Danted discussed the fighting on Cadia. So it seems a bit weird.
I mean, yes the forces of "good" (insofar as the imperium is good) and order are more powerful, but so are the forces of evil and destruction. The galaxy has been split in half by chaos, orks are rampant everywhere still, tyranids continue their invasion, and so on.
While things are objectively worse for the Imperium when you step back at look at the state of the galaxy, it’s been presented in a way that makes it feel more hopeful and optimistic than before. It just feels “wrong”.
I just wish they'd tone back on the superlatives and hyperbole in the writing.
If everything is "the greatest", the "most powerful", the "most advanced", the "biggest threat" etc, then nothing feels particularly amazing anymore. I feel bored reading stuff like this. Something doesn't have to be the absolute epitome of the subject/idea in question in order to be interesting, or to make sales for that matter.
I prefer the focus on 40k being a setting rather than it being a story. I don't care for most of the characters and instead I liked the sandbox feel of the the universe where you could have major battles between any army and it not really stepping on the toes of anybody else's narrative. The whole "its stale" thing never really bothered me because its a setting where you can make up any number of conflicts, worlds, chapters, factions, etc at basically any time (it didn't have to be M41.999 every time GW). Didn't need a story to progress when the appeal was making your own story.
I do hate some of the new story elements like Cawl being walking tech heresy that nobody raises alarm bells about and the whole primaris garbage (its a thinly veiled ploy to nudge/push/force you to buy new Space Marines). Also I am generally less on board with heroes being this unstoppable things in a universe where a lowly guardsman can be given a melta gun that can turn some of the most heavily armored tanks into a pile of molten slag.
My faction doesn't seem to be doing much in the lore, so right now I don't really care about the lore. It does seem to be a big rehash to me, vigilus is just another cadia. The bad guys always win some phyric victory and have some, but stupid Y was our plan all along. Maybe GW just needs time and get more writers to starts having good stories.
I also don't like how Gulliman drops at the end of a ton of stories and "saves" the last 3 normal marines with a legion of primaris easy mode, making the whole sacrifice of marines seem only to be there to kill them off.
Vankraken wrote: I prefer the focus on 40k being a setting rather than it being a story. I don't care for most of the characters and instead I liked the sandbox feel of the the universe where you could have major battles between any army and it not really stepping on the toes of anybody else's narrative. The whole "its stale" thing never really bothered me because its a setting where you can make up any number of conflicts, worlds, chapters, factions, etc at basically any time (it didn't have to be M41.999 every time GW). Didn't need a story to progress when the appeal was making your own story.
I do hate some of the new story elements like Cawl being walking tech heresy that nobody raises alarm bells about and the whole primaris garbage (its a thinly veiled ploy to nudge/push/force you to buy new Space Marines). Also I am generally less on board with heroes being this unstoppable things in a universe where a lowly guardsman can be given a melta gun that can turn some of the most heavily armored tanks into a pile of molten slag.
Tech heresy would fall by the wayside to necessity. I don't think that acknowledging a little reality in the setting is bad.
Wasn't it already established though that the rest of the tech priests don't like Cawl, and are only playing along because he has the sponsorship of a Primarch? I mean, if one of the Emperor's sons tell you to jump, you better jump.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Changing the setting into a progressing story in my opinion was the worst move for the lore.
I think leaving the setting on the precipice of all hell breaking loose was much better than hell breaking loose.
Obviously I'm not a fan, but that's partly due to the poor writing.
Conclusion is something that every person desires and no single narrative can ever really get perfect. The endings of heavily theorized and fandom'd settings get hit the worst with this, because you've got this hivemind collaborating on ideas that satisfy everything they want and you can consume ALL OF THEM AT ONCE, but then you've got a limited number of monkeys sitting at just one typewriter trying to pull it together in a satisfying way, and they'll never, EVER please everyone.
Most people in fact will end up pissed, no matter what you do. And because we're in a decade where "objectivity" is the best thing to cloak your emotional reaction to ensure it remains valid and doesn't get dismissed, again, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, your conclusion will be picked apart by those seeking to prove it is "objectively bad". Things will be described as "lazy" and "rushed" and "came out of nowhere" despite maybe you having had a history and tendency to do that all along. Take for example belligerent carl's magical 10,000 year old vault of biglymarines and their super shmancy weapons. Nobody complained when the Dark Angels got their huge release of fancy shmancy never before seen tech that's always been around pinky swear since forever, or whenever there's a new (but always has been here) space marine vehicle, but because it's 2019 this is how we in nerd communities get our knickers in a twist.
Don't get me wrong, I agree - settings like this, it's best to just keep expanding them indefinitely until interest peters out. Then for the diehard fans who remain, you can put together a little conclusion just for the people who remain before you turn the lights out, just as a courtesy. Honestly, I think if The End Times was GW just putting fantasy to bed, they were going to stop making fantasy minis entirely and they wanted to give the remaining fans a show, it would have been better received.
I think they've added just enough hope for the setting that it becomes interesting again.
The stages of interest of 40k kinda went, 'wow, what is this? It's so cool! PEW PEW!' into 'Wow, a lot these guys are a-holes actually' through 'so wait, there's NO new technology or any kind or attempt at progress ever? How do they keep making new stuff for new models then?' to finally land in 'They're Nazis, why do I give a gak what happens to Nazis? The Galaxy would probably be better off if Tyranids won tbh.'
Vankraken wrote: I prefer the focus on 40k being a setting rather than it being a story. I don't care for most of the characters and instead I liked the sandbox feel of the the universe where you could have major battles between any army and it not really stepping on the toes of anybody else's narrative. The whole "its stale" thing never really bothered me because its a setting where you can make up any number of conflicts, worlds, chapters, factions, etc at basically any time (it didn't have to be M41.999 every time GW). Didn't need a story to progress when the appeal was making your own story.
I do hate some of the new story elements like Cawl being walking tech heresy that nobody raises alarm bells about and the whole primaris garbage (its a thinly veiled ploy to nudge/push/force you to buy new Space Marines). Also I am generally less on board with heroes being this unstoppable things in a universe where a lowly guardsman can be given a melta gun that can turn some of the most heavily armored tanks into a pile of molten slag.
Tech heresy would fall by the wayside to necessity. I don't think that acknowledging a little reality in the setting is bad.
Yeah, Religion(Theology, w/e) is always the 'most important thing ever!' until it gets in the way of profit or survival.
Anyone who thinks Guilliman's return has led to a lighter tone hasnt paid attention to the new fluff.
Anyone who thinks the setting has progressed in a meaningful way hasn't paid attention to the new fluff.
There have been changes, but the plight of the Imperium is exactly the same as before. At best we've gotten a lateral shift.
BlaxicanX wrote: Anyone who thinks Guilliman's return has led to a lighter tone hasnt paid attention to the new fluff.
Anyone who thinks the setting has progressed in a meaningful way hasn't paid attention to the new fluff.
There have been changes, but the plight of the Imperium is exactly the same as before. At best we've gotten a lateral shift.
Agree with this.
They’ve just given themselves leeway to make New Toys and books, but the situation is as bleak as ever. Potentially worse, if internal strife tears the Imperium apart politically (distrust of Cawl, rejection of Guilliman, etc. as possible triggers).
I think that they handled the move forward in almost the worst way possible (the worst way, of course, was blowing up the whole setting and then reintroducing parts of it in your entirely new setting--thanks for that, GW).
The Cicatrix Maledictum was too big and too devastating. The opening of the Eye of Terror was a cataclysmic event that shattered one empire and birthed another--but now here's something way huger and way more powerful and way more devastating. It minimizes a hugely important part of the background, at the same time that it doesn't reflect the massive changes that it should entail.
One of the most significant restrictions on the free movement of Chaos forces is completely removed. The bitter stalemate that has persisted for 10,000 years continues to be a bitter stalemate. If Cadia and the Cadian Gate were really important to keep Chaos Marines in the Eye of Terror for ten thousand years, why isn't the situation way worse now?
We've had incremental, halting progress in the Space Marine armor marks for 10,000 years. Mark 8 is still only barely being produced. The production of Space Marine equipment is hugely expensive and hugely difficult. Oh, hey. This guy has way better armor that he developed and it turns out we can crank out enough equipment to equip tons of new chapters all at one. It undermines the desperate attrition and slow degradation that the Imperium has fought for thousands of years.
The Emperor produced the Primarchs, the Custodians, the Thunder Warriors, and the Space Marines. No one has been able to significantly improve upon this progress for ten thousand years. They haven't even been able to halt increasing flaws in the process. But this guy over here, he has new, better Space Marines, and he's been producing them for thousands of years, and training them, and storing them up, and now we can release them and make new ones too.
Either the new progress is unbelievable, or the old storylines are unbelievable.
I was ALL FOR advancing the storyline, but I thought it would have been really easy and interesting to have some major, game-changing events, without these ridiculous moments. Of the top of my head:
Abaddon conquers Cadia and breaks the Cadian gate, but not before the Necrons reveal what pylons do, and reveal the presence of others. So we move forward, but Chaos isn't unchecked.
A new rift to Chaos opens. Not one crossing the entire galaxy from end to end, but one over there where FFG led you to believe something bad was gonna happen. A new Eye of Terror is no good. Even if we hadn't lost Cadia, now the Chaos dudes can come out another place. Now we have to fortify something else!
Some technological development (finding an STC, some magos in stasis, whatever) not only speeds up the production of Mark 8 armor, but starts the production of Mark 9. You can start putting the same damn marines in the new armor. You don't have to have them cross the Primaris Rubicon or whatever. They get new suits. The suits are good. We've changed the scale at least twice since Rogue Trader anyhow.
A primarch comes back. Roboute was a good choice since he was right there in stasis. Sure, the Eldar help, or the Necrons, or whoever. Great. He starts bossing around people like a Primarch and stuff gets done. He gets new tanks and stuff. He even updates the Codex.
You could have had resurgent Chaos, New Marine armor, new vehicles, changes in the tactical situation and the political balance, all without the ridiculousness of a massive warp rift across the entire freaking galaxy and thousands of brand new, taller marines, who are both experienced and noobs at the same time.
I would have been more angry about it, but I'm embracing my inner Ork and shrugging about the whole thing. Just some more zoggin' beakies.
I started having problems with lore advances/changes as far back as when matt ward turned necrons into space tomb kings. In short i'm not happy with a significant amount of the new lore, and the overall feel of 40k is not the same to me anymore.
Ive turned around on my original distaste for Guillimans return. Having listened to Dark Imperium, and now starting Plague Waes, I appreciate Guillimans character alot more. He's overburdened, nostalgic, confused, frustrated, distrustful, and sentimental.
Hes not really the Hope of the Imperium that they think he is, but hes forced into to playing and manipulating that role.
I'm fine with story progression, as it's happened before. The difference this time is the reach of the changes, which IMO are three-fold.
1: Citrix Maledictum changes the star map comsiderably. The old Eye of Terror whas such an iconic piece of imagery. The Eye sems pretty insigbificant now.
2: Returning Primarch. I would have rather they stayed mythical.
3: Primaris Marines, especially how they are introduced in the setting. A more-marine-marine. . . Bleh.
I preferred the relative galactical stagnation as a giant blank canvas.
I think that they handled the move forward in almost the worst way possible (the worst way, of course, was blowing up the whole setting and then reintroducing parts of it in your entirely new setting--thanks for that, GW).
The Cicatrix Maledictum was too big and too devastating. The opening of the Eye of Terror was a cataclysmic event that shattered one empire and birthed another--but now here's something way huger and way more powerful and way more devastating. It minimizes a hugely important part of the background, at the same time that it doesn't reflect the massive changes that it should entail.
One of the most significant restrictions on the free movement of Chaos forces is completely removed. The bitter stalemate that has persisted for 10,000 years continues to be a bitter stalemate. If Cadia and the Cadian Gate were really important to keep Chaos Marines in the Eye of Terror for ten thousand years, why isn't the situation way worse now?
We've had incremental, halting progress in the Space Marine armor marks for 10,000 years. Mark 8 is still only barely being produced. The production of Space Marine equipment is hugely expensive and hugely difficult. Oh, hey. This guy has way better armor that he developed and it turns out we can crank out enough equipment to equip tons of new chapters all at one. It undermines the desperate attrition and slow degradation that the Imperium has fought for thousands of years.
The Emperor produced the Primarchs, the Custodians, the Thunder Warriors, and the Space Marines. No one has been able to significantly improve upon this progress for ten thousand years. They haven't even been able to halt increasing flaws in the process. But this guy over here, he has new, better Space Marines, and he's been producing them for thousands of years, and training them, and storing them up, and now we can release them and make new ones too.
Either the new progress is unbelievable, or the old storylines are unbelievable.
I was ALL FOR advancing the storyline, but I thought it would have been really easy and interesting to have some major, game-changing events, without these ridiculous moments. Of the top of my head:
Abaddon conquers Cadia and breaks the Cadian gate, but not before the Necrons reveal what pylons do, and reveal the presence of others. So we move forward, but Chaos isn't unchecked.
A new rift to Chaos opens. Not one crossing the entire galaxy from end to end, but one over there where FFG led you to believe something bad was gonna happen. A new Eye of Terror is no good. Even if we hadn't lost Cadia, now the Chaos dudes can come out another place. Now we have to fortify something else!
Some technological development (finding an STC, some magos in stasis, whatever) not only speeds up the production of Mark 8 armor, but starts the production of Mark 9. You can start putting the same damn marines in the new armor. You don't have to have them cross the Primaris Rubicon or whatever. They get new suits. The suits are good. We've changed the scale at least twice since Rogue Trader anyhow.
A primarch comes back. Roboute was a good choice since he was right there in stasis. Sure, the Eldar help, or the Necrons, or whoever. Great. He starts bossing around people like a Primarch and stuff gets done. He gets new tanks and stuff. He even updates the Codex.
You could have had resurgent Chaos, New Marine armor, new vehicles, changes in the tactical situation and the political balance, all without the ridiculousness of a massive warp rift across the entire freaking galaxy and thousands of brand new, taller marines, who are both experienced and noobs at the same time.
I would have been more angry about it, but I'm embracing my inner Ork and shrugging about the whole thing. Just some more zoggin' beakies.
All excellent points there. I feel they either didn't take in the criticisms given to them about WHFB's End Times (which might have been hard to do as the signal to noise ratio there was significant...) or all of this was at the printers and ready to go long in advance. It felt rushed, just like the End Times. These are all incredibly significant events. Let people digest them. Let them sit and the implications that come with them. It's like they wanted to be Game of Thrones, but took the worst aspects of it. You had three books come out at breakneck speed. All of which contained things that had major implications for the 40k universe, yet were sort of glossed over as soon as the next book came out.
Cadia blows up. Great. Some story progression! (which I personally didn't like, as 40k is(was) a setting, not a story. But still....). Not let that sink in. don't just go and release the next book with ZOMG New Eldar god!!! the following month and Holy gak! Resurrected Primarch!!! right after. The implications of Cadia being destroyed were huge and far-reaching, yet the background is only just catching up to this. This was the same problem the final season of GoT suffered from
Spoiler:
You only had 7 episodes, yet over the course of that the main antagonist changed 3 times. Night King->Cersei->Dany. It was just too much crammed into too little space
It's like GW beat them to the punch with how to fumble this.
They could have stretched this out for years, with only now us getting to book 3 with Girlyman's return. I cannot stress how much of a significant event this should have been yet nothing has changed. The only thing it has served to do is make the 40k galaxy feel smaller as literally every single event revolves around him and roughly a dozen other characters. No GW. You have a whole galaxy to play in with hundreds of thousands of worlds and untold trillions of peoples yet let's just focus on Girlyman, even though his resurrection still ensures the status quo for some reason.
The focus is on Guilliman as overall commander, though. All his active campaigning in the Imperium at large occurred off-camera, even in Guy Haley's novels. he's remained in Ultramar, and Vigilus is under the eye of Marneus Calgar, for example.
The focus is always on what the big characters are doing. The untold stories of the other million worlds in the Imperium are for us to tell.
Do all the narrative developments and events during M40.999 that were written after the timeline was reset to (and paused) just before Eye of Terror count as setting or story?
They could have stretched this out for years, with only now us getting to book 3 with Girlyman's return. I cannot stress how much of a significant event this should have been yet nothing has changed. The only thing it has served to do is make the 40k galaxy feel smaller as literally every single event revolves around him and roughly a dozen other characters. No GW. You have a whole galaxy to play in with hundreds of thousands of worlds and untold trillions of peoples yet let's just focus on Girlyman, even though his resurrection still ensures the status quo for some reason.
Well the thing about Gulliman is that unlike the milions of characters in the w40k universe, he does have a model that GW wants to sell. All art and the few stories I read look a bit like gloried adds. If something doesn't have a model it will not exist. If something has new models, like primaris, they are going to be poping up in every 4th story or so. Where are the quirky primaris Lts that use non standard weapons, or an intercessors that decied he will very much keep their combat knifes, or the jump dudes that decided that shoting is over rated and stocked up on some huge thunder hammers? Those would be cool to read about or see in art, something new and not something you can see on the cover of a codex or box of minis. Where is the wow aspect, if the hero of a 300page book looks, just like your own dudes?
My opinion is not going to be popular but I wish that chaos had gotten their butts kicked during vigilus and the xenos would become the true threat. Honestly tired of chaos, they are boring IMO when they are the big bad here and in sigmar.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Wasn't it already established though that the rest of the tech priests don't like Cawl, and are only playing along because he has the sponsorship of a Primarch? I mean, if one of the Emperor's sons tell you to jump, you better jump.
And to be fair, even Gulliman doesn't like him, he's just useful and in a way actually did his job, which is leagues better than the rest of the imperium. The guy's so universally reviled I feel completely comfortable making a primaris sons of malice chapter with the background joke of Cawl responding with "Who hasn't" when confronted over making an entire new chapter of marines that were declared traitors for ritualistically cannibalizing an inquisitor. He's as grimdark as most anything in the setting.
Meanwhile Gulliman is a walking hypocrite who despises the church, but leverages, hates xenos but owes his life to the eldar and gets dicked around by the forces of chaos more or less constantly, only succeeding by expending nearly irreplaceable relic weaponry. Aka, 40k as usual just with an extra tallboy.
The whole hopeful thing can be turned around with a few clicks on a keyboard. Chaos has been the big baddie and now they're being resisted effectively, the 'nids are having trouble with the rift, eldar have some hope to avoid she who thirsts, fine.
The necrons could have a sudden resurgence when GW decides to pump them up with new releases. The necrons could become a huge menace as they rise in vast numbers and new necron units are awakened. (How about some new type scarabs like shield scarabs, guard scarabs , etc)
Or the emperor could croak when his golden throne conks out.
An evil primarch could rise.
The 2 "lost" primarchs could return and boy, are they pissed!
Anything could happen to dim the sudden light of hope in the 40k universe.
Andersp90 wrote: So the first primarch has returned, and more are probably coming. The aeldari have received a possible "get-out-of-jail-free" card in the form of Ynnead, and the tyranid threat has been diminished by the the great rift.
Put short, there is hope.
But what do you think of this change in the setting? Good, bad?
Unfortunately, this thread is already tl;dr, so I apologize if I'm just repeating the sentiments of others.
Before the events of Dark Imperium, I would have placed myself firmly in the, "40k is a setting, not a story," and "progression is bad" camp, but for me, how they've gone about it has largely been positive. Sure, the Primarchs have lost some mystery due to being actual, real, killable models on the tabletop, but on the other hand, Morty and Magnus are such beautiful models (the less said about that horrendous Guilliman model, the better) that I can kind of forgive this. Also, they haven't yet broken my pet peeve of bringing dead characters back to life, so the fluff hasn't been too offended.
The return of Ynnead certainly seems to be lacking in any kind of downside, though I'm not hugely familiar with Eldar lore, so feel free to correct me on that point. However, as far as I'm aware, Ynnead only gives their followers the ability to die without their souls being Slaanesh's lunch. Living on the other hand, is likely just as challenging in the 42nd millennium as it was in the 41st.
I wasn't aware that the Tyranid threat had been diminished by the Rift, but in a way, it kind of makes sense that it would. It was always a problem for me that 40k always tried to present Chaos as the arch nemesis of human kind by having them largely relegated to their little patch within the Eye, and yet here we have the Tyranids in all likelihood surrounding the entire galaxy! For me the Rift addresses that balance in a really great way.
Is there more hope now than before? Sure. But I don't see any recent developments leading me to believe that the galaxy is about to become all sunshine and happiness any time soon.
It was a mistake. The overwhelming grimdark, the lack of hope, yet people still resisting it to fight on for what they believed in - that was what made 40K tick. But, see, the more GW move away from that, the closer they get to just generic sci-fi.
When you start rooting for space marines as "the good guys", and that part about them being super space nazis gets quietly swept under the rug - that's when 40K loses its identity and becomes utterly forgettable. Generic. Mediocre.
It's never had great writing, but at least it was memorable beforehand. You want to play in the brighter galaxy sandbox, you've got to compete with Star Wars, Halo, hell even Star Trek. There's a comparison I never thought I'd be making.
And it really sucks that 40K is moving to this brighter setting because it's something that couldn't really be imitated. I'm sure many will try when 40K goes full Hasbro, but it won't be the same, will it?
As an addendum, introducing the 42nd millennium as a true sequel would have been a far better move, signalling a transition from the grim darkness to the brighter future. But expecting GW to handle something with finesse is a bit like expecting civilised political conversation. Real fecking unlikely.
Martel732 wrote: I want emperor to die and humans to learn real space travel.
I dunno there's something special when your faster than light travel is basically smashing a great big hole in reality and flying through a quite literal Hell whilst beset on all sides by demons and worse, protected only by a shield before you blast out the other end (if you're lucky).
Next to that warp drive is just kinda, well, its too safe and boring!!
The only race who should have non-warp FTL are necrons. And they got that from literal gods of reality, who can bend (although not break) the laws of physics in creative ways.
I still maintain that the Dolmen gates is a crap idea that was cooked up by someone who didn't actually read the 3rd necron lore and only read the part about torch-ships and not the part about the C'tan giving them really fast ships, which was later detailed in Battlefleet Gothic.
If people think that a literal hole in reality coming into being is somehow indicative of a "lighter" 40k setting, they don't really have any room to discuss the background period.
Kanluwen wrote: If people think that a literal hole in reality coming into being is somehow indicative of a "lighter" 40k setting, they don't really have any room to discuss the background period.
Entirely depends on what that hole in reality does. As it stands, it's not really much more than an Eye of Terror 2.0, but without any of the background. Eye of Terror diet, really.
Kanluwen wrote: If people think that a literal hole in reality coming into being is somehow indicative of a "lighter" 40k setting, they don't really have any room to discuss the background period.
Entirely depends on what that hole in reality does. As it stands, it's not really much more than an Eye of Terror 2.0, but without any of the background. Eye of Terror diet, really.
Try reading some of the fluff then. "Vigilus Defiant" talks about the effects of the rift for example.
Martel732 wrote: I want emperor to die and humans to learn real space travel.
I dunno there's something special when your faster than light travel is basically smashing a great big hole in reality and flying through a quite literal Hell whilst beset on all sides by demons and worse, protected only by a shield before you blast out the other end (if you're lucky).
Next to that warp drive is just kinda, well, its too safe and boring!!
Kanluwen wrote: If people think that a literal hole in reality coming into being is somehow indicative of a "lighter" 40k setting, they don't really have any room to discuss the background period.
Entirely depends on what that hole in reality does. As it stands, it's not really much more than an Eye of Terror 2.0, but without any of the background. Eye of Terror diet, really.
Try reading some of the fluff then. "Vigilus Defiant" talks about the effects of the rift for example.
agreed, the idea that the setting is somehow "Brighter" now is bffling, yeah we've got Gulliman and primaris Marines. but Chaos has upped their game too. read the fluff carefully. it's clear things are NOT alright. you have signs of chaos kingdoms forming in Imperium Nihlas for instance.
Martel732 wrote: The warp is a stupid deus ex machina. Making the warp irrelevant would be my primary technical goal.
Gotta disagree. The Warp is one of the few things keeping the setting grim dark - though I think you'll have your way given enough time. All that hell and demon stuff doesn't really sell well to parents
agreed, the idea that the setting is somehow "Brighter" now is bffling, yeah we've got Gulliman and primaris Marines. but Chaos has upped their game too. read the fluff carefully. it's clear things are NOT alright. you have signs of chaos kingdoms forming in Imperium Nihlas for instance.
Apparently it's not okay for there to be "hope" on the Imperial side of things. That's why people think this is some 'lighter' 40k setting.
Typical nonsense. Can't wait to see what comes of "The Great Work" novel this year.
agreed, the idea that the setting is somehow "Brighter" now is bffling, yeah we've got Gulliman and primaris Marines. but Chaos has upped their game too. read the fluff carefully. it's clear things are NOT alright. you have signs of chaos kingdoms forming in Imperium Nihlas for instance.
Apparently it's not okay for there to be "hope" on the Imperial side of things. That's why people think this is some 'lighter' 40k setting.
Typical nonsense. Can't wait to see what comes of "The Great Work" novel this year.
The brighter the hope, the darker and larger the grim dark gets.
No, the worse is when you know there is no hope, but your still going to live for anywhere between 20 to 40 years. Like when you burst your diafragma durning sports or lifting, and end up with a broken spine. Your 17-19, and your life just ended, you will achive nothing, but you are going to live at least as long as your parents going to be able to take care of you. Worse thing you can't even kill yourself. I know, because I have a person like that in my family that is 71 now, that got polio in the 50s.
No idea how much britghter 8th ed lore is comparing to last one. But what bothers me, aside for inconsitancy between books. Are the deux ex machinas. BA are almost done, suddenly Gulliman arrives reaps tyranids a new one with his khorn ally, with no problem. Abadon is killing Calgar, here comes cyclotronic torpedos that blow up his ship, and he has to go back, but that was his plan all along and he didn't want to kill Calgar in the first place.
SHUPPET wrote: Primaris were a terrible decision, and their kneepads look universally awful.
Everything else is really cool though. Hyped to see where the universe goes, my only complaint is that it's still moving too slowly.
Their armor looks great, the kneepads keep shrapnel on the ground from flying up into their face or rounds deflecting off the knees and into the groin. My only complaint is that they should have beakies and the knee should have an enclosed joint while keeping the projecting flange. The issue with their implementation is more that GW hasn't committed to anything resulting in a mediocre middling point that pleases nobody. I just wish they'd 1:1 replace space marines entirely and then give Chaos a lore upgrade to justify them getting 1+ to wounds as well but the Primaris as they stand are more laughable than anything. We've got an entire faction that.
1) Only has thunderhawks for transport/attack craft
2) Only has Repulsors and Astraeus for armor
3) Only has Repulsors for ground transport
4) Can't even use Drop Pods
5) Has almost no anti-armor capability and is just milling around with boltguns
6) Besides the Astraeus, doesn't even have anti aircraft defenses.
7) Doesn't even have dedicated melee units to protect their only anti-armor from enemy chaff or any real way to deal with things like Daemons or Tyranids
In all regards despite their enhancements they should (and logically are) inferior to a mini marine chapter because they have feth-all in the way of support and should get casually swept aside regarldess of their physical strengths.
If you delete the warp from 40k you change the setting so fundamentally that I can't even begin to try and work out how to keep the setting together. From how psychic powers work, space travel and several major factions backgrounds. Not to mention of what you do with chaos's various factions.
Dude just go play another game then. At this point you've made it clear you hate your army, both rules wise (this I can understand to a degree) but you also seem to want the background so fundamentally altered that it would essentially be an entirely different setting. I again ask what if anything even attracted you to this game.
That's rather harsh. I'm not fond of the Daemon aspect of 40K, but I find the Warp intriguing. "The realm of thoughts and dreams" as it were, twisted into a hellish landscape by humanity's fears, hatred and other unbridled negative emotions given life in this age of strife. It really hits home how much of a gakfest 40K is - if the galaxy hadn't devolved into an endless battlefield that feeds itself, it would be a placid or perhaps even an utopia sort of "afterlife".
Dude just go play another game then. At this point you've made it clear you hate your army, both rules wise (this I can understand to a degree) but you also seem to want the background so fundamentally altered that it would essentially be an entirely different setting. I again ask what if anything even attracted you to this game.
he's essentially parroting things said without him understanding the subtle nuances. I mean the space Marines suck bit is something you hear here from plenty of sources and martel seems to just parrot that. even the "the warp is deus ex machina" is him parroting something without understanding the nuance of what was said. in the wake of Devestation of Baal people complained that the warp storm removing the bulk of the hive fleet was a deus ex machinea. and they where arguably correct to state this (aa random action done by the gods of the setting itself just so happened to save the blood angels from destruction. that was arguably a deus ex machina. but that does not mean the warp itself is a deus ex machina anymore then the existance of wesley Crusher makes every TNG character a mary sue
Dude just go play another game then. At this point you've made it clear you hate your army, both rules wise (this I can understand to a degree) but you also seem to want the background so fundamentally altered that it would essentially be an entirely different setting. I again ask what if anything even attracted you to this game.
he's essentially parroting things said without him understanding the subtle nuances. I mean the space Marines suck bit is something you hear here from plenty of sources and martel seems to just parrot that. even the "the warp is deus ex machina" is him parroting something without understanding the nuance of what was said. in the wake of Devestation of Baal people complained that the warp storm removing the bulk of the hive fleet was a deus ex machinea. and they where arguably correct to state this (aa random action done by the gods of the setting itself just so happened to save the blood angels from destruction. that was arguably a deus ex machina. but that does not mean the warp itself is a deus ex machina anymore then the existance of wesley Crusher makes every TNG character a mary sue
Never sully the great name of The One True Wesley!
Yes Ka'band'aha destroying most of the hive fleet is kinda lame, but it at least makes sense "in-universe". Khorne wouldnt let anyone take the prize of either destroying or turning the Blood Angel's from him.
Dude just go play another game then. At this point you've made it clear you hate your army, both rules wise (this I can understand to a degree) but you also seem to want the background so fundamentally altered that it would essentially be an entirely different setting. I again ask what if anything even attracted you to this game.
he's essentially parroting things said without him understanding the subtle nuances. I mean the space Marines suck bit is something you hear here from plenty of sources and martel seems to just parrot that. even the "the warp is deus ex machina" is him parroting something without understanding the nuance of what was said. in the wake of Devestation of Baal people complained that the warp storm removing the bulk of the hive fleet was a deus ex machinea. and they where arguably correct to state this (aa random action done by the gods of the setting itself just so happened to save the blood angels from destruction. that was arguably a deus ex machina. but that does not mean the warp itself is a deus ex machina anymore then the existance of wesley Crusher makes every TNG character a mary sue
Never sully the great name of The One True Wesley!
Yes Ka'band'aha destroying most of the hive fleet is kinda lame, but it at least makes sense "in-universe". Khorne wouldnt let anyone take the prize of either destroying or turning the Blood Angel's from him.
It's also nice to see a Bloodthirster getting gak done for once instead of being used as a punching bag to hype somebody else up. Greater Daemons get good showings sometimes but it's not terribly consistent. Not like Tyranids are anything but an NPC race either.
The whole Dark Imperium thing is really just a cosmetic change. Abaddon is still the primary antagonist of Chaos poised to launch war on a key Imperium world. The Tyrannids are still an all consuming force surrounding the galaxy, and poised to sweep in an nom everything. The Necrons are still all mostly sleeping in their tombs poised to wake up and reclaim what's rightfully theirs. The Craftworlders are still floating around on their Craftworlds mostly observing goings on and making their "subtle" interventions. The Commorrahns still kidnap and pillage.
So the Eye got bigger and so did Space Marines, and instead of four guys with no names in charge of a dispersed and besieged Imperium, now there's one really famous guy in charge of a dispersed and besieged Imperium.
I really like having a few splashes of hope here and there. It's fun to play the villain, but less so when everyone is 100% villain and hopeless. It's less fun to butcher a planet's population when you realize you're basically doing them a favor by saving them from whatever their imperial overlords had them doing in the first place.
You can't savor the sensation of crushing your opponent's hope when there was never any hope to begin with. Some ultra smurfs want to let a relatively nice imperial world remain in tact and productive? Sacrificing that world to chaos or abducting its best and brightest with my drukhari feels like I've shaped that planet for the worse and spawned a generation of vengeful heroes. But if the planet is just a despairing cog in the galactic machine, my bad guys are at worst just swapping one hellscape with another.
And from the less villainous side of things, pre-8th 40k kind of had a damned if you do/diabla ex machina problem. My marines stopped chaos from taking over a planet? Um. Yay I guess? I mean, the lives of everyone there will remain just as miserable as ever. Your guard regiment managed to purge an ork invasion from a planet and readied it for colonization? Well, you probably lost thrice as many worlds as you gained, so you're losing even when you win. Craftworlders repelled a hive fleet? So what? You're just delaying things until the Rhana Dandra and your inevitable extinction anyway.
It made a lot of the story telling in 40k feel really pointless. Which might appeal to my inner 14 year old edge lord but is pretty boring on the whole.
"See? Everything sucks no matter what you do! Isn't that super mature and brutal?"
Not really. It's kind of shallow and dull. I'm much more excited about my death cult elves throwing their lives into the blender for a desperate chance at maybe, just maybe, actually creating a better future. Let them die horribly. Let Slaanesh eat a bunch of them. Heck. Let them LOSE in the end or find out that Ynnead was a false hope all along. But fighting for a slim hope is infinitely more interesting than just hitting the snooze button on your own destruction for a few more minutes.
If your faction has nothing to fight for, then why bother fighting?
If your faction has nothing to fight for, then why bother fighting?
To make it worse for others or just out of spite? hardly a new concept. And eldar may understand that his race to dieing out because of how their population growth works. Now if he used human logic or if we would to assume that the great end enemy is chaos, he or she should do anything to fight chaos and help those that fight it. This is clearly not the case though, and eldar have absolutly no problem with butchering other people races that are fighting chaos like orcs or humans.
Dark eldar are even more extrem in this. Because they have to feed themselfs more and more pain and misery to avoid getting turn in to a suck tub by slanesh, at some point the required misery and pain becomes too much to generate in a single raid. So they do know they are going to die, in a brutal and eternal way, yet they still keep up the raiding tradition they started just after the fall.
Andersp90 wrote: So the first primarch has returned, and more are probably coming. The aeldari have received a possible "get-out-of-jail-free" card in the form of Ynnead, and the tyranid threat has been diminished by the the great rift.
Put short, there is hope.
But what do you think of this change in the setting? Good, bad?
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment"
Andersp90 wrote: So the first primarch has returned, and more are probably coming. The Eldar have received a possible "get-out-of-jail-free" card in the form of Ynnead, and the tyranid threat has been diminished by the the great rift.
Put short, there is hope.
But what do you think of this change in the setting? Good, bad?
This has been an argument going back as far as the introduction of the Tau.
I am ambivalent about it all, the background was becoming very poorly written and flanderised over the last while anyway, so this is something of a continuation of that, but at least some aspects of it are new and interesting. I think they should focus on a game setting rather than a continuing narrative, I have always felt that if I want a narrative I will read a novel, but if I want to play a game I want a setting to muck around in.
The original 40K setting is something really special. It is not "serious" but deals with serious themes, and it is interesting precisely because it does not lend itself to typical heroic storytelling, the sort where hope, victory and salvation are the outcomes.
There are no heroes in 40K. It depresses me that many people consider the Imperium to be the defacto "good guys", though I recognise that terrible writing by new staff who don't seem to understand the setting very well is a big part of this. The Imperium is an absolutely evil organisation. They are fascists, extreme fascists. The sort of casual re-writing of them into kind of "Good Guys with a Dark Side" is actually pretty disturbing. As a kid I always understood that the guys that do a genocide are the bad guys, and what was fascinating was that there did not seem to be ANY good guys fighting against them.
Space Marines as the heroes, thinking the Imperium "needs" to be bad to save the Galaxy and the ends justifying the means...urgh. No. That is Imperial propaganda. They are extreme xenophobe fascistic scum who are creating their own shadows in the Warp to fight against.
Da Boss wrote: This has been an argument going back as far as the introduction of the Tau.
I am ambivalent about it all, the background was becoming very poorly written and flanderised over the last while anyway, so this is something of a continuation of that, but at least some aspects of it are new and interesting. I think they should focus on a game setting rather than a continuing narrative, I have always felt that if I want a narrative I will read a novel, but if I want to play a game I want a setting to muck around in.
The original 40K setting is something really special. It is not "serious" but deals with serious themes, and it is interesting precisely because it does not lend itself to typical heroic storytelling, the sort where hope, victory and salvation are the outcomes.
There are no heroes in 40K. It depresses me that many people consider the Imperium to be the defacto "good guys", though I recognise that terrible writing by new staff who don't seem to understand the setting very well is a big part of this. The Imperium is an absolutely evil organisation. They are fascists, extreme fascists. The sort of casual re-writing of them into kind of "Good Guys with a Dark Side" is actually pretty disturbing. As a kid I always understood that the guys that do a genocide are the bad guys, and what was fascinating was that there did not seem to be ANY good guys fighting against them.
Space Marines as the heroes, thinking the Imperium "needs" to be bad to save the Galaxy and the ends justifying the means...urgh. No. That is Imperial propaganda. They are extreme xenophobe fascistic scum who are creating their own shadows in the Warp to fight against.
The Imperium are the good guys because ends always justify the means and survival is the only goal in life. If you're up against a wall and cornered by existential threats you do whatever is necessary to survive, regardless of what that entails. Not only are they not fascist/Nazi in structure, but the Imperium has far more in common with any bronze or iron age polity facing existential threats on its borders and thus engages in any means necessary to live one more day. Or hell just the USSR during the invasion of Nazi Germany with scorched earth tactics. No different from the Eldar killing billions to save a single member of their species or the Tau blazing anything that comes in their path - many surprising options become more reasonable to you when your life is on the line.
Also don't forget that the lore and books (major ones at least) tend to focus on the armed forces and the space marines aas well as most of the "upper" ranks of the universe.
Even the necromunda stuff, which looks at the almost litteral dregs of a hiveworld society, still focus on those who are succeeding in general.
The working class - the lines of slave workers - are mostly ignored as a background element. Mostly because there isn't much to write about when their entire life is basically that of an organic machine. Labouring long hours with only just enough downtime to down tools, eat, sleep and wake to pick up their tools once more. The drudge and hard labour and endless work is basically all they have in life.
The Imperium is still dark; men are still made into skull faced servators; their people are still kept in slave like conditions by and large whilst lords and ladies far above play with power armours and toys the like of hwich are near magical in nature. Heck come to Necromunda where the lords might send down a few of their kids to shoot up the commoners for fun.
Overread wrote: Also don't forget that the lore and books (major ones at least) tend to focus on the armed forces and the space marines aas well as most of the "upper" ranks of the universe.
Even the necromunda stuff, which looks at the almost litteral dregs of a hiveworld society, still focus on those who are succeeding in general.
The working class - the lines of slave workers - are mostly ignored as a background element. Mostly because there isn't much to write about when their entire life is basically that of an organic machine. Labouring long hours with only just enough downtime to down tools, eat, sleep and wake to pick up their tools once more. The drudge and hard labour and endless work is basically all they have in life.
The Imperium is still dark; men are still made into skull faced servators; their people are still kept in slave like conditions by and large whilst lords and ladies far above play with power armours and toys the like of hwich are near magical in nature. Heck come to Necromunda where the lords might send down a few of their kids to shoot up the commoners for fun.
Yeah the Imperium is no cake walk. Planetary Governors have total control over their worlds so long as they aren't late and tithes and thus planets can range from the occasional paradise to utter hell on earth where people are worked to the bone and jaywalking gets you sent to the penal colony mine. Ultimately the Adeptus Terra don't care how you treat your citizens so long as you're a loyalist, your planet is comprised of loyalists, and you pay whatever your designated tithe is on a regular schedule. It's actually what kicked off the Badab War too, Huron was taking resources normally allotted for tithes to the Adeptus Terra by his neighboring worlds. The Governors knew what would happen if they failed to pay and, having no other alternative, were forced into war simply to prevent the Imperial axe from landing on their heads when the taxman came to collect.
The Imperium is not the good guy faction, and the ends do not justify the means. It is an obvious part of the setting that the Imperium is evil.It is just that no one else is good.
And I would absolutely dispute that the Imperium is not fascist.
To me, that is what makes it interesting. There is no one to obviously cheer for.
Tyranids are clearly the good faction - there's no oppression, no slavery, no abuse within the swarm. They are simply a beast that consumes on a scale far greater than most, but still just living within their own balance.
True I mean I guess they eat galaxies and they do have no individual willpower and you can argue taht wiping out whole planetary ecosystems is pretty bad, but only from a certain perspective.
Da Boss wrote: The Imperium is not the good guy faction, and the ends do not justify the means. It is an obvious part of the setting that the Imperium is evil.It is just that no one else is good.
And I would absolutely dispute that the Imperium is not fascist.
To me, that is what makes it interesting. There is no one to obviously cheer for.
The Imperium is the default 'good guy' faction because it's human. I'm human, and thus I obviously do not find aliens to be terribly sympathetic (especially when fighting humans), because I'm a human too and thus the humans are the most relatable party sans CWE. However heinous the Imperium's actions are, they are ultimately justified because they are taken in the steps of preserving humanity by the suffering of many so future generations can even be born. So long as the end of human survival is ultimately met, the Imperium is wholly just in its existence as the custodian of the species. Remember when the alternative is death, every solution is preferable.
Overread wrote: Tyranids are clearly the good faction - there's no oppression, no slavery, no abuse within the swarm.
All tyranids are slaves whom are used without concern for their well being, and thrown in to the vats to be recycled when they've outlived their usefulness.
But be that as it may, that's not really on topic here.
Wyzilla wrote: Remember when the alternative is death, every solution is preferable.
I think you may be overegging the pudding on the Nids there.
I get where you're coming from like. But in the background, they're more all parts of a single, vast organism. So it can be said they're no more slaves of the Hive Mind than my fingers are slaves of my brain.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for 'who are the Good Guys'.
Has to be Orks. They just don't have a concept of evil in the way other species do. They fight not out of malice, but because they enjoy it, and are instinctually compelled to. So they're no more evil than say, a man eating Lion that eats someone.
Their entire culture is 'might makes right'. Those they enslave are only enslaved because the Orks were 'arder than them. Any Ork could find themselves in the same situation, and know that if the can clobber The Boss, they can get out. And if they can't, they're stuck doing as their told.
I get where you're coming from like. But in the background, they're more all parts of a single, vast organism. So it can be said they're no more slaves of the Hive Mind than my fingers are slaves of my brain.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for 'who are the Good Guys'.
Has to be Orks. They just don't have a concept of evil in the way other species do. They fight not out of malice, but because they enjoy it, and are instinctually compelled to. So they're no more evil than say, a man eating Lion that eats someone.
Their entire culture is 'might makes right'. Those they enslave are only enslaved because the Orks were 'arder than them. Any Ork could find themselves in the same situation, and know that if the can clobber The Boss, they can get out. And if they can't, they're stuck doing as their told.
By that rational, then you could just as easily say that humanity, Tau, or Eldar (or really any of race) if the still the good guys in that they are instinctively compelled to 4X (explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate). Their culture is for the survival and expanse of it species. Which again makes every species just as good or evil as any other. I don't really see any sentient being following its base instinct as good or even neutral.
Except the Tyranids. They are only bad guys. Being a super intelligent hive mind and not developing photosynthesis and co-existing within a foreign galaxy for the betterment of all. Truely evil. [/s]
As for the setting, I don't see if being any lighter than it was before. Old Bob and the super marines basically have kept the doom's day clock at 2 minutes til midnight for a couple of centuries. I think it could even been argued that Cicatrix Maledictum caused Imperium of Man has already been diminished by half. Two centuries is more than enough time for sectors to throw off the yoke of Terra and form their own despotic empires or be consumed by hostile xenos. Chances are the space marines that would be sent to prevent that are far too busy dealing with Chaos now if they hear anything at all.
To make a poor WWII analogy I see the fall of Cadia kinda like the Normandy landing and the Cicatrix Maledictum as the rapid push of the western front through France. All the while soviets (Tyranids, Necrons and Orks) and grinding the IoM on the eastern front (basically every where else in the galaxy). The IoM (Germany), is almost pushed back and only now has slowed, not stopped, the advance of its enemies, and now those enemies can strike from any number of locations making consolidating a force to deal with it much more difficult (with the exception of Vigilus).
Da Boss wrote: The Imperium is not the good guy faction, and the ends do not justify the means. It is an obvious part of the setting that the Imperium is evil.It is just that no one else is good.
And I would absolutely dispute that the Imperium is not fascist.
To me, that is what makes it interesting. There is no one to obviously cheer for.
Fascism, requires a form of absolute central authorithy.
The imperium has that only in name since the horus Heresey, everything else is competeing power.
Also i doubt even at the hight of the Great crusade the imperium was unified enough to propperly implement a fascisct central state.
Edit: as for the setting?
Sure the Aeldary get a jail out of free card, but that doesn't change the fact that the galaxy now looks like the backside of a rhinoceros.
Da Boss wrote: Quibbling over the definition is pretty tiresome. The Inquisition are very much absolute authority for example.
If you don't like the word fascism, because it triggers you, then we could just say "Horrible oppressive evil genocidal regime".
Except the Inquisition doesn't have absolute authority and has gotten their arses kicked to the curb precisely because they thought they were the supreme authority.
And the issue isn't "quibbiling over definitions", the issue is that "fascist" and "nazi" have specific socio-economic and political structures that the Imperium is literally incapable of replicating as a completely disorganized byzantine horror reminiscent of the Holy Roman Empire at its worst with naught even a centralized form of currency to speak of. It's more a matter of actually understanding definitions to properly label things instead of carelessly slinging words around.
Da Boss wrote: Quibbling over the definition is pretty tiresome. The Inquisition are very much absolute authority for example.
If you don't like the word fascism, because it triggers you, then we could just say "Horrible oppressive evil genocidal regime".
The inquisition is by no means absolute, only as far as the personal influence of one inquisitor extends and most of the time occupied by dicking each other over.
Infact they have more incommon with the early HRE when the emperor was on voyage collecting tribute. Infact the whole tithe system is basically the same.
Also triggering? Get some manners and go read the relevant books.
Games Workshop writers themselves have stated several times that the Imperium is heavily influenced by early-mid 20th century European totalitarian states. No they are not technically fascists or Nazi's or Bolsheviks but they are clearly heavily influenced by them and this is clearly meant to be a bad thing. To suggest otherwise is baffling.
They even said in the most recent voxcast interview "in these troubling times we must stress they are in no way meant to be aspirational".Can't get much clearer than that.
Wyzilla wrote: And the issue isn't "quibbiling over definitions", the issue is that "fascist" and "nazi" have specific socio-economic and political structures that the Imperium is literally incapable of replicating as a completely disorganized byzantine horror reminiscent of the Holy Roman Empire at its worst with naught even a centralized form of currency to speak of. It's more a matter of actually understanding definitions to properly label things instead of carelessly slinging words around.
Pretty sure they come up in the "Live for the state" and "Mass extermination" uses quite regularly while discussing 40k. I've said this before, most people don't know squat about the holy roman empire so they draw parallels they actually know something about. Which do clearly exist as well.
Wyzilla wrote: And the issue isn't "quibbiling over definitions", the issue is that "fascist" and "nazi" have specific socio-economic and political structures that the Imperium is literally incapable of replicating as a completely disorganized byzantine horror reminiscent of the Holy Roman Empire at its worst with naught even a centralized form of currency to speak of. It's more a matter of actually understanding definitions to properly label things instead of carelessly slinging words around.
Pretty sure they come up in the "Live for the state" and "Mass extermination" uses quite regularly while discussing 40k. I've said this before, most people don't know squat about the holy roman empire so they draw parallels they actually know something about. Which do clearly exist as well.
Considering that ideology and reality of state structure are often far apart one could forgive them.
The ideology is clearly totalitarianistic at its goal, it tries to get to an utopia, and belives in the superiority of themselves.
However no real large scale economic policy was issued by the emperor making the empire rather off.
Reality for it is though fragmented, splintered and multiple players within viying for power. Therefore the actual Organisation of the empire is more a failed feudalistic wannabee totalitarian state.
Failing even at a common monetary policy.
Structure of government or even common religious practice.
In this thread, people confuse fascist with totalitarian dystopia, good with necessity and completely shorn in half and besieged by myriad enemies bent on its destruction with lighter.
Cadia has fallen. Chaos has split the Imperium in two.
The return of one Loyalist Primarch has already cause three Daemon Primarchs to turn their gaze outside the Eye, with at least two more already moving in that direction.
The Gray Shield Crusade collapsed under it's own bureaucratic weight without returning the Imperium to it's prior status quo, leaving even Guilliman disappointed and scrambling in a transition to a smaller scale Plan B focused on his own Ultramar rather than the Imperium at large.
His Primaris marines have set the stage for a potential schism among the loyalist chapters who either have a secret to hide(The Unforgiven), or ego to protect (Gabrial Seth).
Without a peer to call him on it, he's repeating many of the mistakes either he, or the Emperor made in the past - getting his fleet shot up by Fulgrim - leaving his "children" feeling abandoned/unappreciated (Calgar)
The most likely peer to return - Lion El Johnson - is fundamentally wired differently when it comes to things like acceptable losses, collateral damage, and the costs of victory meaning if/when he does return - without a third primarch to tie-break - that peer is more likely to paralyze both in debate than keep each other headed in the right direction.
The peer best suited to be that tie-breaker as respected by both enough to allow him to over-rule them is one of the least likely to return - without a major story event above and beyond the return of Johnson - because he died fighting Horus.
Who knows what machinations the Ecclesiarchy have in store for Guilliman and his opposition to their role in society? The lore is replete with stories of planetary governors sacrificing their own planet and people to preserve their own status and power- and the Ecclisiarchy have far more status and power.
We have many new chapters of Primaris Marines, as well as most of the old chapters being reinforced with Primaris replacements to boot. Which is helpful because so many chapters have been devastated as well. How many Blood Angels and successors were left after the Devastation of Baal?
I don't see there being more hope in this new millenium, the hope is just different. Every step forward has been matched with at least one step back somewhere else.
WRT the Holy Roman Empire, obviously, yeah. I mean check my location, I know about it. And it is one source of inspiration for the Imperium.
But another huge source of inspiration is obviously, OBVIOUSLY, totalitarian fascist and communist governments. Mass sterilisation, genocide, extreme xenophobia, literal worship of the leader, constant reference to the existential threat to mankind's existance as the justification for all of this, along with eugenics and all the rest. It is plain as day!
The fact that you guys have accepted the in game propoganda that this is the only way for the Imperium to survive rather than for example having a more open society, allowing actual research and free thought to come up with new technological ideas rather than mindlessly worshipping the achievements of the past etc, well that is on you. To me, it is an obvious, glowing neon signpost to the fact that the way the Imperium is "saving humanity" is wrong, and not justified, and in fact counter productive (why do you think Chaos is so strong? They are the reflection of the sheer misery of the uncounted trillions existing in the horror of the Imperium, it is creating it's own enemy).
God damn I love the original ideas in 40K. Talking about that stuff is really making me want to paint some genocidal super soldiers for the first time in about six years.
I do apologise for using some crappy language in my earlier post though. It was not polite.
Da Boss wrote: WRT the Holy Roman Empire, obviously, yeah. I mean check my location, I know about it. And it is one source of inspiration for the Imperium.
But another huge source of inspiration is obviously, OBVIOUSLY, totalitarian fascist and communist governments. Mass sterilisation, genocide, extreme xenophobia, literal worship of the leader, constant reference to the existential threat to mankind's existance as the justification for all of this, along with eugenics and all the rest. It is plain as day!
The fact that you guys have accepted the in game propoganda that this is the only way for the Imperium to survive rather than for example having a more open society, allowing actual research and free thought to come up with new technological ideas rather than mindlessly worshipping the achievements of the past etc, well that is on you. To me, it is an obvious, glowing neon signpost to the fact that the way the Imperium is "saving humanity" is wrong, and not justified, and in fact counter productive (why do you think Chaos is so strong? They are the reflection of the sheer misery of the uncounted trillions existing in the horror of the Imperium, it is creating it's own enemy).
God damn I love the original ideas in 40K. Talking about that stuff is really making me want to paint some genocidal super soldiers for the first time in about six years.
I do apologise for using some crappy language in my earlier post though. It was not polite.
Make a Purge warband if you really want genocide super human.
Cadia has fallen. Chaos has split the Imperium in two.
The return of one Loyalist Primarch has already cause three Daemon Primarchs to turn their gaze outside the Eye, with at least two more already moving in that direction.
The Gray Shield Crusade collapsed under it's own bureaucratic weight without returning the Imperium to it's prior status quo, leaving even Guilliman disappointed and scrambling in a transition to a smaller scale Plan B focused on his own Ultramar rather than the Imperium at large.
His Primaris marines have set the stage for a potential schism among the loyalist chapters who either have a secret to hide(The Unforgiven), or ego to protect (Gabrial Seth).
Without a peer to call him on it, he's repeating many of the mistakes either he, or the Emperor made in the past - getting his fleet shot up by Fulgrim - leaving his "children" feeling abandoned/unappreciated (Calgar)
The most likely peer to return - Lion El Johnson - is fundamentally wired differently when it comes to things like acceptable losses, collateral damage, and the costs of victory meaning if/when he does return - without a third primarch to tie-break - that peer is more likely to paralyze both in debate than keep each other headed in the right direction.
The peer best suited to be that tie-breaker as respected by both enough to allow him to over-rule them is one of the least likely to return - without a major story event above and beyond the return of Johnson - because he died fighting Horus.
Who knows what machinations the Ecclesiarchy have in store for Guilliman and his opposition to their role in society? The lore is replete with stories of planetary governors sacrificing their own planet and people to preserve their own status and power- and the Ecclisiarchy have far more status and power.
We have many new chapters of Primaris Marines, as well as most of the old chapters being reinforced with Primaris replacements to boot. Which is helpful because so many chapters have been devastated as well. How many Blood Angels and successors were left after the Devastation of Baal?
I don't see there being more hope in this new millenium, the hope is just different. Every step forward has been matched with at least one step back somewhere else.
What grand effects did this have on Orks? Necrons? Tau? Eldar of all kinds?
Da Boss wrote: WRT the Holy Roman Empire, obviously, yeah. I mean check my location, I know about it. And it is one source of inspiration for the Imperium.
But another huge source of inspiration is obviously, OBVIOUSLY, totalitarian fascist and communist governments. Mass sterilisation, genocide, extreme xenophobia, literal worship of the leader, constant reference to the existential threat to mankind's existance as the justification for all of this, along with eugenics and all the rest. It is plain as day!
The fact that you guys have accepted the in game propoganda that this is the only way for the Imperium to survive rather than for example having a more open society, allowing actual research and free thought to come up with new technological ideas rather than mindlessly worshipping the achievements of the past etc, well that is on you. To me, it is an obvious, glowing neon signpost to the fact that the way the Imperium is "saving humanity" is wrong, and not justified, and in fact counter productive (why do you think Chaos is so strong? They are the reflection of the sheer misery of the uncounted trillions existing in the horror of the Imperium, it is creating it's own enemy).
God damn I love the original ideas in 40K. Talking about that stuff is really making me want to paint some genocidal super soldiers for the first time in about six years.
I do apologise for using some crappy language in my earlier post though. It was not polite.
Chaos isn't strong because of the Imperium or humanity. It literally predates the human species altogether and goes all the way back to the War in Heaven. The issue is that things in 40k are simply that bad when genocide and idolatry of leaders is the only way to survive because the mirror dimension of the universe is actively trying to devour reality and enslave everybody.
Da Boss wrote: WRT the Holy Roman Empire, obviously, yeah. I mean check my location, I know about it. And it is one source of inspiration for the Imperium.
But another huge source of inspiration is obviously, OBVIOUSLY, totalitarian fascist and communist governments. Mass sterilisation, genocide, extreme xenophobia, literal worship of the leader, constant reference to the existential threat to mankind's existance as the justification for all of this, along with eugenics and all the rest. It is plain as day!
.
yeah but their point is it's not centralized. the idea of a state as decentralized as the Imperium of Mankind is (by necessity in fairness) would give a facist dictator like Hitler or Mussilini nightmares. one oif the defining traits of facism is a strong central leadership. which the IoM distinctly lacks, heck until very recently no one could even name one of the high lords of terra. in a facist state you'd be able to name the supreme leader, and he'd have a personality cult surrounding him (Gulliman's return actually in a sense moves the IoM CLOSER to facism. lighter setting eh? )
And before you claim the cult exists in the form of the Imperial Cult. the Emperor is not the ruler of the IoM. He may reign, but he does not RULE
Cadia has fallen. Chaos has split the Imperium in two.
The return of one Loyalist Primarch has already cause three Daemon Primarchs to turn their gaze outside the Eye, with at least two more already moving in that direction.
The Gray Shield Crusade collapsed under it's own bureaucratic weight without returning the Imperium to it's prior status quo, leaving even Guilliman disappointed and scrambling in a transition to a smaller scale Plan B focused on his own Ultramar rather than the Imperium at large.
His Primaris marines have set the stage for a potential schism among the loyalist chapters who either have a secret to hide(The Unforgiven), or ego to protect (Gabrial Seth).
Without a peer to call him on it, he's repeating many of the mistakes either he, or the Emperor made in the past - getting his fleet shot up by Fulgrim - leaving his "children" feeling abandoned/unappreciated (Calgar)
The most likely peer to return - Lion El Johnson - is fundamentally wired differently when it comes to things like acceptable losses, collateral damage, and the costs of victory meaning if/when he does return - without a third primarch to tie-break - that peer is more likely to paralyze both in debate than keep each other headed in the right direction.
The peer best suited to be that tie-breaker as respected by both enough to allow him to over-rule them is one of the least likely to return - without a major story event above and beyond the return of Johnson - because he died fighting Horus.
Who knows what machinations the Ecclesiarchy have in store for Guilliman and his opposition to their role in society? The lore is replete with stories of planetary governors sacrificing their own planet and people to preserve their own status and power- and the Ecclisiarchy have far more status and power.
We have many new chapters of Primaris Marines, as well as most of the old chapters being reinforced with Primaris replacements to boot. Which is helpful because so many chapters have been devastated as well. How many Blood Angels and successors were left after the Devastation of Baal?
I don't see there being more hope in this new millenium, the hope is just different. Every step forward has been matched with at least one step back somewhere else.
What grand effects did this have on Orks? Necrons? Tau? Eldar of all kinds?
Well with the Imperium in increasing disarray the Tau have expanded, heck the Tau have been allowed to survive to a point where they've actually got a chance provided the Imperium doesn't focus upon them. Securing more worlds and didn' tthey also hop-skip and jump across the galaxy at one point with a fleet.
The Orks had a Hive Fleet deflected right into them so both armies ground on each other like crazy for a long while, though I believe this hive fleet is now defeated so the orks are - at large - more mobile and sporting for some more fun.
Tyranids are building a huge planet sized construct, the focus of which no one knows and the last hive fleet was defeated by a demonic incursion (remembering that most times a hive fleet penetrates far into the Imperium a Space Marine chapter gets mostly eaten to nothing)
Eldar appear to be possibly doing the best of all the races, however when you consider that their best is basically a fragmented, shattered people who have to operate in the shadows its not all that brilliant a position. They have some hope, but they'ev had the least for a long time.
Da Boss wrote: WRT the Holy Roman Empire, obviously, yeah. I mean check my location, I know about it. And it is one source of inspiration for the Imperium.
But another huge source of inspiration is obviously, OBVIOUSLY, totalitarian fascist and communist governments. Mass sterilisation, genocide, extreme xenophobia, literal worship of the leader, constant reference to the existential threat to mankind's existance as the justification for all of this, along with eugenics and all the rest. It is plain as day!
.
yeah but their point is it's not centralized. the idea of a state as decentralized as the Imperium of Mankind is (by necessity in fairness) would give a facist dictator like Hitler or Mussilini nightmares. one oif the defining traits of facism is a strong central leadership. which the IoM distinctly lacks, heck until very recently no one could even name one of the high lords of terra. in a facist state you'd be able to name the supreme leader, and he'd have a personality cult surrounding him (Gulliman's return actually in a sense moves the IoM CLOSER to facism. lighter setting eh? )
And before you claim the cult exists in the form of the Imperial Cult. the Emperor is not the ruler of the IoM. He may reign, but he does not RULE
Yeah, the Emperor is just a figure head. He's closer in purpose to the Japanese Emperor than the Roman Emperor.
The true rulers of the Imperial are the High Lords. They are the ones who make the decisions.
Da Boss wrote: WRT the Holy Roman Empire, obviously, yeah. I mean check my location, I know about it. And it is one source of inspiration for the Imperium.
But another huge source of inspiration is obviously, OBVIOUSLY, totalitarian fascist and communist governments. Mass sterilisation, genocide, extreme xenophobia, literal worship of the leader, constant reference to the existential threat to mankind's existance as the justification for all of this, along with eugenics and all the rest. It is plain as day!
.
yeah but their point is it's not centralized. the idea of a state as decentralized as the Imperium of Mankind is (by necessity in fairness) would give a facist dictator like Hitler or Mussilini nightmares. one oif the defining traits of facism is a strong central leadership. which the IoM distinctly lacks, heck until very recently no one could even name one of the high lords of terra. in a facist state you'd be able to name the supreme leader, and he'd have a personality cult surrounding him (Gulliman's return actually in a sense moves the IoM CLOSER to facism. lighter setting eh? )
And before you claim the cult exists in the form of the Imperial Cult. the Emperor is not the ruler of the IoM. He may reign, but he does not RULE
Yeah, the Emperor is just a figure head. He's closer in purpose to the Japanese Emperor than the Roman Emperor.
The true rulers of the Imperial are the High Lords. They are the ones who make the decisions.
We are talking about the HRE emperor which is in essence ranging between allpowerfull and a limp noodle over history. Not the roman emperor.
Da Boss wrote: WRT the Holy Roman Empire, obviously, yeah. I mean check my location, I know about it. And it is one source of inspiration for the Imperium. But another huge source of inspiration is obviously, OBVIOUSLY, totalitarian fascist and communist governments. Mass sterilisation, genocide, extreme xenophobia, literal worship of the leader, constant reference to the existential threat to mankind's existance as the justification for all of this, along with eugenics and all the rest. It is plain as day! .
yeah but their point is it's not centralized. the idea of a state as decentralized as the Imperium of Mankind is (by necessity in fairness) would give a facist dictator like Hitler or Mussilini nightmares. one oif the defining traits of facism is a strong central leadership. which the IoM distinctly lacks, heck until very recently no one could even name one of the high lords of terra. in a facist state you'd be able to name the supreme leader, and he'd have a personality cult surrounding him (Gulliman's return actually in a sense moves the IoM CLOSER to facism. lighter setting eh? )
And before you claim the cult exists in the form of the Imperial Cult. the Emperor is not the ruler of the IoM. He may reign, but he does not RULE
Yeah, the Emperor is just a figure head. He's closer in purpose to the Japanese Emperor than the Roman Emperor. The true rulers of the Imperial are the High Lords. They are the ones who make the decisions.
We are talking about the HRE emperor which is in essence ranging between allpowerfull and a limp noodle over history. Not the roman emperor.
So? Still a different type of emperor. The Emperor does not rule over the Imperium. He used to, but he can't anymore.
I was on board until primaris marines. It would have been neat to see new-wave primarchs. Do away with the old ones, and have essentially heresy volume 2.
Marmatag wrote: I was on board until primaris marines. It would have been neat to see new-wave primarchs. Do away with the old ones, and have essentially heresy volume 2.
James Swallow wrote a book featuring a "new wave Primarch" and the fans gak blood over it. Replacement Primarch would be more unpopular with the internet mob than Primaris are.
The fact that you guys have accepted the in game propoganda that this is the only way for the Imperium to survive rather than for example having a more open society, allowing actual research and free thought to come up with new technological ideas rather than mindlessly worshipping the achievements of the past etc, well that is on you.
This is being explored in the return of Guilliman, a little. Or at least hinted at the idea that it will be explored with his tension with the Ecclesiarchy. I also love the two birds way they're also chicken/egg'ing the Emperor's deification. Was he a god? Is he now a God because of the worship? If the Warp could make the Chaos Gods, could it make the Emperor a God and so on.
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Blndmage wrote: What grand effects did this have on Orks? Necrons? Tau? Eldar of all kinds?
Well I'm pretty sure the Orks and Nids have neither hope nor despair to begin with, so I'm not sure they were part of the discussion. The Necrons haven't been very visible, so who knows what they're up to. Sadly they've missed out on the past couple narratives. Eldar got some hope from the Ynnead, followed quickly by a devastating clash with the Imperium and Ultramarines on Vigilus based around both a miscommunication, and the poor decision-making of xenophobia remaining omnipresent in a reflection of US 60's Civil Rights history - a little hope tempered with a long winding road with no end in sight from the current time.
In "the devastation of ball", Guilliman showed up with his primaris mariens shortly after the rift was formed. We are talking days. No sure how that fits with the rest of the timeline.
In depends on who's perspective. Devastation of Baal mentions (page 502) that for the Angels, about 6 months had passed for the duration of the book, but due to the Warp Storms, it was about 70 years for the rest of the galaxy.
They basically missed out on everything going to hell while dying in their bug-filled personal hell.
Mind you, big RG showing up with Even More Better replacements for all their losses (and a portable way to make more, if they lower their standards), rather undermines their losses, but that actually may have been the point.
Marmatag wrote: I was on board until primaris marines. It would have been neat to see new-wave primarchs. Do away with the old ones, and have essentially heresy volume 2.
The Primaris are a game mechanic trying to "fix" Space Marines. It'll help, but it won't fix them. The problem with the game isn't the units, its the D6. There isn't enough room on a D6 unless they start adding modifiers out the wazoo. Generally 1 always fails - so the D6 only has room for 5 results that may or may not succeed. They have to try and make a 6 "always" succeed so there's always a chance and people won't rage quit over not having that chance. So now you're down to 4 results to differentiate what 30-40 different unit/armor/weapon types for 15-16? different basic armies among 11 or so different races? There's a reason we've started to Shorthand units as MEQ. TEQ, etc. 200 points of 20 1 wound models with 20 shooting phases will still beat 200 points of 10 2 would models with 10 shooting phases - especially in a world with multi-wound weapons.
I'm not convinced we won't see a "new" wave of the "old" Primarchs. They've foreshadowed Cawl really wanting to recreate the Traitor legions (and their Primarchs) and Guilliman's lack of trust Cawl won't do it even against his wishes enough to more than hint they're going to bring them all and their 30K units and fluff into 40K to sell more models. Whether the "new" Traitor Primarchs turn Traitor again is anybody's guess - and I wouldn't be shocked to see some sort of fence straddling so - for example - Alpha Legion Players can use Alpharius and/or Omegon in either Chaos or Loyalist Alpha Legion Space Marine lists. I don't expect the Loyalists to turn, but it wouldn't shock me to see Cawl regrow Corax for example, and have the current one finally succumb to the corruption of the warp he's been fighting. Well it might shock me a little. There have been a lot of examples of players wanting to play their pre-fall CSM as Loyalist - its pretty much why 30K was created. Very few examples of people turning their (canon/official) Loyalists chaos - its usually a their own chapter falling for their own reasons thing like the Tyrant of Badab.
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Voss wrote:
Even More Better replacements for all their losses (and a portable way to make more, if they lower their standards), rather undermines their losses, but that actually may have been the point.
That's usually the point. And was certainly my point questioning why people think there's more hope today than yesterday. Every time they advance the story, the only thing that changes are the details, not the balance sheet. Sure the Imperium has a Primarch now. But the Daemon Primarchs are now more interested in coming out to play than they were before. They have Space Marine 2.0's now. But the Cadia gate has fallen, and Chaos isn't bottled up in the Eye anymore. Plus, who really believes Chaos isn't going to get 2.0's as well as soon as the 8th edition Beta Test is over?
The designers will continuously balance that tipping point - they want neither an absence or abundance of hope. Ever watch a thriller/action movie? Take the movie Speed.
Spoiler:
The villainous bomber blows himself up. Yay Good Guys! He's back and a bus blows up. Sad Trombone Officer Jack gets on the bus to save it. Yay. The driver gets shot. Man, we cannot catch a break. They identify the bomber. Go team! He blows up Deterctive Harry. That can't be good. They find an empty freeway. Relief! They get the injured driver off the bus. Yay, momentum! Uh oh, the bomber sees a second passenger - an old lady no less - try and get off the bus, she dies. Momentum and old lady crushed under the tires. Double Whammy to really kill that momentum -> The empty freeway isn't finished, they have to Dukes of Hazard from one end of the incomplete overpass to the other. and on, and on and on.
They'll write an emotional up and down sine wave narrative until the cows come home, or they need to reboot the game Sigmar style. They're not reinventing the wheel, or changing the sum total of hope. They're just flicking it back and forth over the center line they chose for dramatic tension.
Marmatag wrote: I was on board until primaris marines. It would have been neat to see new-wave primarchs. Do away with the old ones, and have essentially heresy volume 2.
James Swallow wrote a book featuring a "new wave Primarch" and the fans gak blood over it. Replacement Primarch would be more unpopular with the internet mob than Primaris are.
Rather than new primarchs id rather see more focus (and kits) for all the big characters for the main chapters. and lore wise more of them getting their gak together to deal with problems.
IE new lysander (maybe Pedro), a named character for the iron hands, a named white scars character.. etc.
so basically a line for everyone that is somewhere between a captain and a primarch doing cool space marine stuff.
If some of the people in this topic actually read some of the new BL fiction they couldn't be complaining. Some of the best stuff is in the post Cadia universe.
It sounds like many people got their opinions from 1d4chan lol
Ishagu wrote: If some of the people in this topic actually read some of the new BL fiction they couldn't be complaining. Some of the best stuff is in the post Cadia universe.
It sounds like many people got their opinions from 1d4chan lol
If people restricted themselves to things they actually knew, then Dakka would be a very quiet place.
Ishagu wrote: If some of the people in this topic actually read some of the new BL fiction they couldn't be complaining. Some of the best stuff is in the post Cadia universe.
It sounds like many people got their opinions from 1d4chan lol
If people restricted themselves to things they actually knew, then Dakka would be a very quiet place.
and people would be required to admit their ignorance which seems unlikely to happen given the number of statements made with the certainty of authority that's just out and out wrong
Sim-Life wrote: I don't think the lore is any lighter. Guilliman is stuck in an endless game of whack-a-mole, Chaos is stronger than ever and most of the xenos races are still doing what they've veen doing.
Except Necrons, who went from omnicidal alien god-machines on the verge of waking, to... a bunch of grumpy robot boys who want everyone to get off their lawn.
Sim-Life wrote: I don't think the lore is any lighter. Guilliman is stuck in an endless game of whack-a-mole, Chaos is stronger than ever and most of the xenos races are still doing what they've veen doing.
Except Necrons, who went from omnicidal alien god-machines on the verge of waking, to... a bunch of grumpy robot boys who want everyone to get off their lawn.
Are you saying that omnicidal alien god-machines can't be grumpy after finding a bunch of upstarts and space elves on their lawn after a long nap?
Part of the problem with the narrative is that it was never really intended as a narrative. It's a table top battle game, not a series of novels. Originally Rogue Trader was more of an RPG that then morphed into a skirmish game. The game is not supposed to be concerned with galaxy spanning wars. It's a setting that establishs the general scope of the world and then you enter it with "your guys". You're playing out an Eldar raid on an Imperial tech bunker defended by the AM. You're a Space Marine task force trying to clean out a pocket of Tyranids after an invasion was beaten off. You're a band of Orks and a band of Chaos Space Marines both descending on a mysterious signal eminating from an alien looking object that you want to seize. What's going on on the other side of the galaxy is basically irrelevant to your little skirmish. The named characters were introduced to a) sell models, b) mix the game up a bit and add some extra flavour, and c) inspire you to make your own, write your own stories.
The whole narrative thing has only come along more recently as a way to sell books. The old setting was fine. Although humanity was staring down the barrel of disaster, it was obvious that disaster was going to take a long time (1000 years or more) to be realised. Or was it? The setting had enough flexibility in it to allow for the possibility that your heroic chapter master would lead a revival that might push back the green tide. Where GW went wrong was to focus too much on the big picture and not on heroic characters and individual stories. They had this same problem with WHFB. They could have kept the game fresh (and continued to sell new models and books) by expanding the range of minor heroes. You can even knock off more famous characters like Marneus, stick him in a dreadnought, do a story around the rivalry to replace him, but without having to completely change the background setting.
A setting for a Series of novels, and a setting for a table top game do not have to be that different from a whole.
Its really only just GW poorly managing there setting that causes issues, Its a galexy. You can have massive world wide events, That change little to nothing for the setting as a whole.
But the setting moves on, this is how we get new units and changes as we go. And new things popping up like the Tau.
Slowly changing it over the years in different ways, GW is not super unique in this. But i do feel they are the company that has lean the most on there older stuff.
But things like the primarchs coming back, big news for the inner Parts of the imperium. But It would probably be 10 years before news could even spread around the imperium.
Really a sitting is little more than a place to tell story in, and a setting moves forward just like anything with a story. Even if you go backwards, its still progressing the setting in some way.
Knowing the setting is even more importent for those creating it, than it is for those following on. And i think GW As a company has just not manage it well D;
Yes, it used to be a setting with no real narrative progression. Things have progress and it now has a narrative that is pushing models and a story arc spread across multiple books that progress the story.
Some people don't like the post Cadia narrative. They are missing out on some of the very best 40k fiction: Devastation of Baal, Spears of the Emperor, Dark Imperium 1 & 2, Lords of Silence, etc are incredible stories for the setting. The Primaris also introduce and additional layer of drama, conflict and mistrust within the setting which makes for very good character drama. It's not lighter - to accuse it of that is to show ignorance and lack of knowledge on the matter.
There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it. There are no models which have lost rules, there are no reason why you can't set your games in m38 if you so desired. It's clear that GW is doing the right thing - look at their financial growth and engagement in the hobby in record numbers.
Don't fall into the trap of being a grumpy, old man who can't accept changes lol
Ishagu wrote: I think people simply don't like change.
Yes, it used to be a setting with no real narrative progression. Things have progress and it now has a narrative that is pushing models and a story arc spread across multiple books that progress the story.
Some people don't like the post Cadia narrative. They are missing out on some of the very best 40k fiction: Devastation of Baal, Spears of the Emperor, Dark Imperium 1 & 2, Lords of Silence, etc are incredible stories for the setting. The Primaris also introduce and additional layer of drama, conflict and mistrust within the setting which makes for very good character drama. It's not lighter - to accuse it of that is to show ignorance and lack of knowledge on the matter.
There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it. There are no models which have lost rules, there are no reason why you can't set your games in m38 if you so desired. It's clear that GW is doing the right thing - look at their financial growth and engagement in the hobby in record numbers.
Don't fall into the trap of being a grumpy, old man who can't accept changes lol
I like change in settings, most of the settings I deal with in games change. I just think GW kinda meh at it, things like the primarchs could have been more interesting but I do not think as a whole they have been done particularly well. And some of it has been rather tragic. Some of it was good, and some of it was ok but still introduced things into the setting I dislike.
Some of that is my interests being different, but it’s also that I am interested in the setting and I am finding it so dull as of late.
Also I am a narrative player, ignoring the narrative tends to just leave me ignoring the entirety of 40k.
The whole narrative thing has only come along more recently as a way to sell books.
How do you define 'recently'? Big narrative events happening in 40k's "present" were a thing when I started playing back in 2000.
Ah, so you joined just as the setting stagnated.
On release in 1987, the "present" in 40k was 40,987. It advanced roughly in real time until 1999, when the setting was at 40,999. After that they just added more events happening at once or crept ever closer to midnight at the end of the millennium (first 999000.M41, then 999900, then 999990 and then 999999.M41, which is the last 8 hours of the 41st millennium).
Ishagu wrote:There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it.
Yes and no. It depends on people you regularly play with etc. So for example if you find yourself opposite a regular Ultramarine player with Guilliman then you're going to have a hard time mentally dodging around that narrative. To another point, It's entirely possible to sell books and write exciting and interesting stories without having to juggle the whole setting each time.
nurgle5 wrote:How do you define 'recently'? Big narrative events happening in 40k's "present" were a thing when I started playing back in 2000.
They used to have big events, but they didn't really change the setting. It might be a campaign over a certain world that ends up falling to chaos, but by and large the overall background narrative stayed fairly static.
Ishagu wrote: I think people simply don't like change.
Yes, it used to be a setting with no real narrative progression. Things have progress and it now has a narrative that is pushing models and a story arc spread across multiple books that progress the story.
Some people don't like the post Cadia narrative. They are missing out on some of the very best 40k fiction: Devastation of Baal, Spears of the Emperor, Dark Imperium 1 & 2, Lords of Silence, etc are incredible stories for the setting. The Primaris also introduce and additional layer of drama, conflict and mistrust within the setting which makes for very good character drama. It's not lighter - to accuse it of that is to show ignorance and lack of knowledge on the matter.
There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it. There are no models which have lost rules, there are no reason why you can't set your games in m38 if you so desired. It's clear that GW is doing the right thing - look at their financial growth and engagement in the hobby in record numbers.
Don't fall into the trap of being a grumpy, old man who can't accept changes lol
I like change in settings, most of the settings I deal with in games change. I just think GW kinda meh at it, things like the primarchs could have been more interesting but I do not think as a whole they have been done particularly well. And some of it has been rather tragic. Some of it was good, and some of it was ok but still introduced things into the setting I dislike.
Some of that is my interests being different, but it’s also that I am interested in the setting and I am finding it so dull as of late.
Also I am a narrative player, ignoring the narrative tends to just leave me ignoring the entirety of 40k.
Can you describe what wasn't done well and why, and exactly why you think it falls beyond the typical standard of 40k fiction? I find the general lore perfectly acceptable, but many of the new BL novels have been exceptional at fleshing things out in detail, and have been suitably grim.
There are plenty of holes you can pick in the lore, plenty of silly things that have stood for years. I find most complaints to be subjective, but those who make them state them as if they were facts or absolutes.
Ishagu wrote:There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it.
Yes and no. It depends on people you regularly play with etc. So for example if you find yourself opposite a regular Ultramarine player with Guilliman then you're going to have a hard time mentally dodging around that narrative. To another point, It's entirely possible to sell books and write exciting and interesting stories without having to juggle the whole setting each time.
That's a very particular, local problem. If you're facing the same list over and over again in your personal social group, it's on you to comment on this. No one likes facing the same list time and time again, but you could have made the same complaint for years with any number of characters like Abaddon, Ahriman, Mephiston, the Swarmlord, etc
if facing Guilliman somehow breaks your immersion, can't you write a story around facing off against a false Primarch - something which actually happened prior to the current events?
Talk with your opponent, discuss your armies. No reason why you can't arrange a specific type of game at a local setting.
On release in 1987, the "present" in 40k was 40,987. It advanced roughly in real time until 1999, when the setting was at 40,999. After that they just added more events happening at once or crept ever closer to midnight at the end of the millennium (first 999000.M41, then 999900, then 999990 and then 999999.M41, which is the last 8 hours of the 41st millennium).
I can't recall exactly when GW rowed back on Medusa V and Eye of Terror, but it would've been post 2007, so I got a few years in before the timeline ground to a halt!
bouncingboredom wrote:They used to have big events, but they didn't really change the setting. It might be a campaign over a certain world that ends up falling to chaos, but by and large the overall background narrative stayed fairly static.
Now, to be fair, something doesn't have to change the whole setting to count as a narrative development. Armageddon set up a new conflict for players to set their games in. On Medusa V characters from the background like Ygethmor were killed. Eye of Terror was pretty huge, or at least it would have been had the timeline not been reversed in its aftermath.
Ishagu wrote: I think people simply don't like change.
Yes, it used to be a setting with no real narrative progression. Things have progress and it now has a narrative that is pushing models and a story arc spread across multiple books that progress the story.
Some people don't like the post Cadia narrative. They are missing out on some of the very best 40k fiction: Devastation of Baal, Spears of the Emperor, Dark Imperium 1 & 2, Lords of Silence, etc are incredible stories for the setting. The Primaris also introduce and additional layer of drama, conflict and mistrust within the setting which makes for very good character drama. It's not lighter - to accuse it of that is to show ignorance and lack of knowledge on the matter.
There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it. There are no models which have lost rules, there are no reason why you can't set your games in m38 if you so desired. It's clear that GW is doing the right thing - look at their financial growth and engagement in the hobby in record numbers.
Don't fall into the trap of being a grumpy, old man who can't accept changes lol
Lords of Silence is set pre 13th Black Crusade just fyi.
nurgle5 wrote: Now, to be fair, something doesn't have to change the whole setting to count as a narrative development. Armageddon set up a new conflict for players to set their games in. On Medusa V characters from the background like Ygethmor were killed. Eye of Terror was pretty huge, or at least it would have been had the timeline not been reversed in its aftermath.
I think it's fine to do narrative development for the characters. Where you run into problems is when the entire universe starts getting shifted about on a massive scale. 40K is only about thirty years old. They could for example have tried playing out the narratives in something close to real time, which explains why the over arching narrative never really shitfs much (it would even play into the idea of the Imperium for example as a slow, cumbersome organisation).
It's a bit like the WHFB issue. They could have switched to a skirmish game and done a lot of things with it without having to blow the entire world up. The problems with GW's story telling structure were in evidence throughout the WHFB run as well, as they struggled to create new and vibrant heroes and instead tried to push these big campaigns that ultimately came to nothing.
Ishagu wrote: I think people simply don't like change.
Yes, it used to be a setting with no real narrative progression. Things have progress and it now has a narrative that is pushing models and a story arc spread across multiple books that progress the story.
Some people don't like the post Cadia narrative. They are missing out on some of the very best 40k fiction: Devastation of Baal, Spears of the Emperor, Dark Imperium 1 & 2, Lords of Silence, etc are incredible stories for the setting. The Primaris also introduce and additional layer of drama, conflict and mistrust within the setting which makes for very good character drama. It's not lighter - to accuse it of that is to show ignorance and lack of knowledge on the matter.
There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it. There are no models which have lost rules, there are no reason why you can't set your games in m38 if you so desired. It's clear that GW is doing the right thing - look at their financial growth and engagement in the hobby in record numbers.
Don't fall into the trap of being a grumpy, old man who can't accept changes lol
Lords of Silence is set pre 13th Black Crusade just fyi.
no it's not. it has eventys in it pre-black crusade but the story is distinctly post black crusade, with the climax being something mentioned off hand in the new post GS fluff in the core book fluff
I dont get why the setting had to change. We choose 40k because we liked the setting. It was a huge galaxy eith endless options to add more stuff. Nothing had to be removed. This is supposed to be a wargame not a boon or a movie.
Do people who play napoleonics whine that the setting never changes? No! They love the specific setting and make up new battles and scenarios in the same setting. You can take inspiration from available historical events or you can create your own.
Ppl playing saga likes vikings. They dont want new units using black powder weapons. If a new setting is introduced then make a new game.
Because with the setting change came lots of new models. Which really is awful because that really messes with the balance so the game gets worse on 2 fronts.
Gitdakka wrote: I dont get why the setting had to change. We choose 40k because we liked the setting. It was a huge galaxy eith endless options to add more stuff. Nothing had to be removed. This is supposed to be a wargame not a boon or a movie.
Do people who play napoleonics whine that the setting never changes? No! They love the specific setting and make up new battles and scenarios in the same setting. You can take inspiration from available historical events or you can create your own.
Ppl playing saga likes vikings. They dont want new units using black powder weapons. If a new setting is introduced then make a new game.
how has anything in the setting been removed. outside of old crons lore, because as cool as terminator the army. it was boring AF and doubled up on the nids which is also lame.
Gitdakka wrote: I dont get why the setting had to change. We choose 40k because we liked the setting. It was a huge galaxy eith endless options to add more stuff. Nothing had to be removed. This is supposed to be a wargame not a boon or a movie.
Do people who play napoleonics whine that the setting never changes? No! They love the specific setting and make up new battles and scenarios in the same setting. You can take inspiration from available historical events or you can create your own.
Ppl playing saga likes vikings. They dont want new units using black powder weapons. If a new setting is introduced then make a new game.
how has anything in the setting been removed. outside of old crons lore, because as cool as terminator the army. it was boring AF and doubled up on the nids which is also lame.
Better than the boring crazy senile old men army. The idea they were metal tyranids is the same as saying chaos marines are just ultramarines with spikes.
The setting changed a lot seeing as you have the Tau no longer being contained and starting to have their own version of psyker hunting, Eldar have abandoned all their long term goals in favour of Ynnari, the Imperium has reversed its situation in a lot of ways like having a Primarch and Primaris, Tyranids had their largest fleet magicked away and so on.
pm713 wrote: The idea they were metal tyranids is the same as saying chaos marines are just ultramarines with spikes.
The setting changed a lot seeing as you have the Tau no longer being contained and starting to have their own version of psyker hunting, Eldar have abandoned all their long term goals in favour of Ynnari, the Imperium has reversed its situation in a lot of ways like having a Primarch and Primaris, Tyranids had their largest fleet magicked away and so on.
How in the world is saying an unknown metal killing machine faction with no real known motivation is the same as unknown flesh killing machine faction with no real known motivation the same as saying Chaos space marines with its many different factions, beliefs, structures, powers and motivation, the same as one strick blue boi army with spikes?
also not sure how the tau and eldar progressing is suddenly a removal of a key concept in the setting.
additionally while yeah primarchs are a thing again (and naturally its girlyman ) there is also the big space rift causing MAJOR problems so its not like the threat level decreased. if anything it increased. and non of that "removed" anything
yes things have significantly changed but the setting is still oh gak code brown from every conceivable angle.
pm713 wrote: The idea they were metal tyranids is the same as saying chaos marines are just ultramarines with spikes.
The setting changed a lot seeing as you have the Tau no longer being contained and starting to have their own version of psyker hunting, Eldar have abandoned all their long term goals in favour of Ynnari, the Imperium has reversed its situation in a lot of ways like having a Primarch and Primaris, Tyranids had their largest fleet magicked away and so on.
How in the world is saying an unknown metal killing machine faction with no real known motivation is the same as unknown flesh killing machine faction with no real known motivation the same as saying Chaos space marines with its many different factions, beliefs, structures, powers and motivation, the same as one strick blue boi army with spikes?
also not sure how the tau and eldar progressing is suddenly a removal of a key concept in the setting.
additionally while yeah primarchs are a thing again (and naturally its girlyman ) there is also the big space rift causing MAJOR problems so its not like the threat level decreased. if anything it increased. and non of that "removed" anything
yes things have significantly changed but the setting is still oh gak code brown from every conceivable angle.
Well they're both superhumans who can swing wars with just their presence, created by the Emperor in power armour. That's how being reductionist works.
Because one of the original points of the Tau was that they weren't galaxy spanning powers and the Eldar went from having a variety of attitudes from rebuilding their Empire to just surviving to GW just going LOOK YNNARI ARE THE SAVIOURS OF EVERYONE LOOK LOOK!
The giant space rift is very meh. Cawl has massive amounts of Marines +2 lying around so any losses it created didn't change much, the idea of planets being removed from communicating with the wider Imperium/supplies/support isn't really affected. Everywhere was already in isolated little pockets and the idea that not being able to contact Terra is a major thing is silly because they took centuries to do that anyway.
In some ways they're better. Before Chaos Marines generally had an edge over an average Marine because they'd have more experience and whatever advantages Chaos gave them. Now there's no situation in which the Marines+2 aren't better than the enemy and there's no reason for oldmarines to exist.
GW could have done things in a much more interesting way but here we are.
How in the world is saying an unknown metal killing machine faction with no real known motivation
Except the oldcrons had a motivation. Seal off the material world from the warp so the C'tan can feed on living creatures in peace. That was the necron endgame. They weren't just metal tyranids. They were genocidal, but not in the sense of consuming everything like a swarm of locusts, more in the sense of locking humans and xenos alike in pens so the C'tan can consume them and torment them as they will. They were more like Dark Gods of Order (as opposed to Dark Gods of Chaos) rather than metal nids. Tyranids just want to eat you and move on. The C'tan want to make you into cattle so they can continue to eat you for generations
Not many people get that. I don't blame them; the codex doesn't spell it out for you and you have to read it page from page, the little stories too, especially the very last page which details what would happen if the C'tan ultimately win. Not to mention that the better parts about the fluff, such as Inertialess Drives and Flayed Ones, aren't even in the codex; Inertialess Drives are from Battlefleet Gothic, and the lore on Flayed Ones is from a mid-2000s white dwarf.
Except the oldcrons had a motivation. Seal off the material world from the warp so the C'tan can feed on living creatures in peace. That was the necron endgame.
And it was sooo cool.
Somewhere I also got the impression that the Gauss Flayers (and other weapons) pulled apart the target, atom by atom, drew the "life force" pf the target into the guns, and later that was transmitted into space by the Pylons, and collected to feed to the sarcophagi on board orbiting starships. Necron invasions were just harvesting life-force because their gods liked the taste of it.
pm713 wrote: the idea that not being able to contact Terra is a major thing is silly because they took centuries to do that anyway.
Its not the idea that they cant contact Terra being the major thing, its the fact that effectively half of the Galaxy can no longer see the Astronomicon, so they cant travel as safely (compared to when they could see it). Communications are cut, more so than they were, and they are cut off.
Yeah, the C'tan's desire to eat life-force is pretty dark too; they don't eat people because they have to, they eat people because they want to. This is again different from the nids, who have to constantly eat in order to maintain their fleets.
Because one of the original points of the Tau was that they weren't galaxy spanning powers and the Eldar went from having a variety of attitudes from rebuilding their Empire to just surviving to GW just going LOOK YNNARI ARE THE SAVIOURS OF EVERYONE LOOK LOOK!
The giant space rift is very meh. Cawl has massive amounts of Marines +2 lying around so any losses it created didn't change much, the idea of planets being removed from communicating with the wider Imperium/supplies/support isn't really affected. Everywhere was already in isolated little pockets and the idea that not being able to contact Terra is a major thing is silly because they took centuries to do that anyway.
In some ways they're better. Before Chaos Marines generally had an edge over an average Marine because they'd have more experience and whatever advantages Chaos gave them. Now there's no situation in which the Marines+2 aren't better than the enemy and there's no reason for oldmarines to exist.
ok first of all, the Tau having the ability to go further from home is a change that was NEEDED.the low travel radius of the Tau was a problem as it basicly locked GW into the eastren fringe for any events involving the Tau, which could be problematic. Secondly as for the Edlar, they STILL have a varity of attitudes, the Ynnari are just yet one more new one. Not every eldar is aboard the Ynnari train. as for the great rift and marine losses not mattering this isn't exactly a change.
greyknight12 wrote: Nothing would make me happier than for Guilliman to die in the next campaign book.
Haters gonna hate.
Truth be told, he probably will be returned to a death's door stasis sooner or later. Maybe he'll take a nap in a hidden area of Fortress Macragge only the Watchers in the Toga know about. But the current theme appears to be returning the Primarchs for that "face of the franchise" model that also gives them a monstrous creature visual to compete with the Daemons for demigod on the board. We're going to see the rest of the Traitor Primarchs that are aliveas well as at least some of the loyalist ones. Potentially even some that are thought dead will have it be revealed their deaths were faked. Or they'll be brought back to life. But then this cycle will fade, and be replaced by another one, probably returning all the Primarchs to fiction only. 30K and Forgeworld has shown GW that people want to play with the Primarchs, so they're going to make a come back. But past experience has also shown that Hero Hammer tends to give way to Show Me the Trooper.
I fully believe we're going to see Russ, Johnson, Fulgrim, and Angron relatively shortly. I expect we'll also see Lorgar, and a returned from the Dead Sanguinius, along with another loyalist or two. I wouldn't be surprised to see all but a couple return. I don't think Horus makes a come back. I'm not sure Ferrus does either. The Purged and the Forgotten have never been here to return, obviously and will remain Choose your Own Adventure Chapter material. Well, I should say that's the plan I believe they're working on I'm not sure they'll get all the way through it before they decide to move away from the gigantic centerpiece model and go back to trying to feature the squad of ordinary dudes being the heroes. This is the pattern GW follows. 2nd Edition was Hero Hammer. Your big bad special character was taking on entire squads, tanking Lascannons, and heroically defending that Tactical squad from the Chaos Land Raider bearing down on them. Then the dark times, the 3rd edition. Terminators were nerfed so hard they're still bad, and characters, both special and not, were afraid of flashlights.
pm713 wrote: the idea that not being able to contact Terra is a major thing is silly because they took centuries to do that anyway.
Its not the idea that they cant contact Terra being the major thing, its the fact that effectively half of the Galaxy can no longer see the Astronomicon, so they cant travel as safely (compared to when they could see it). Communications are cut, more so than they were, and they are cut off.
Cut off from what? And they can still travel just slower.
I think the problem for me is that GW spent ages building up the 1 minute to midnight thing and now midnight has come things are very chill. It's like building up for a HUGE explosion then only a medium one happens.
pm713 wrote: the idea that not being able to contact Terra is a major thing is silly because they took centuries to do that anyway.
Its not the idea that they cant contact Terra being the major thing, its the fact that effectively half of the Galaxy can no longer see the Astronomicon, so they cant travel as safely (compared to when they could see it). Communications are cut, more so than they were, and they are cut off.
Cut off from what? And they can still travel just slower.
I think the problem for me is that GW spent ages building up the 1 minute to midnight thing and now midnight has come things are very chill. It's like building up for a HUGE explosion then only a medium one happens.
They're not going to have the huge explosion. That'd be an Age of Sigmar reboot, and I hope to God they learned their lesson on that one. you can be locked in an 8x8 cell or you can be under house arrest unable to leave your home except for groceries. You're pretty much imprisoned either way. Chaos can be stuck in the Eye of Terror, unable to get out, or they can be stuck along the rift seperating the two halves of the Imperium, they're stuck either way. The Imperium can struggle to contain Chaos in the Eye, or they can struggle to contain Chaos in the rift... See? Its all semantics. GW controls what happens, and they're going to control it into a stalemate where its just a matter of scale.
Ishagu wrote: I think people simply don't like change.
Yes, it used to be a setting with no real narrative progression. Things have progress and it now has a narrative that is pushing models and a story arc spread across multiple books that progress the story.
Some people don't like the post Cadia narrative. They are missing out on some of the very best 40k fiction: Devastation of Baal, Spears of the Emperor, Dark Imperium 1 & 2, Lords of Silence, etc are incredible stories for the setting. The Primaris also introduce and additional layer of drama, conflict and mistrust within the setting which makes for very good character drama. It's not lighter - to accuse it of that is to show ignorance and lack of knowledge on the matter.
There is no reason to dislike it because you can simply ignore it. There are no models which have lost rules, there are no reason why you can't set your games in m38 if you so desired. It's clear that GW is doing the right thing - look at their financial growth and engagement in the hobby in record numbers.
Don't fall into the trap of being a grumpy, old man who can't accept changes lol
Lords of Silence is set pre 13th Black Crusade just fyi.
no it's not. it has eventys in it pre-black crusade but the story is distinctly post black crusade, with the climax being something mentioned off hand in the new post GS fluff in the core book fluff
I've read it. The main meat of the book is set pre 13th Black Crusade (There are several whole chapters referencing this, such as the meeting with Morty on the plague planet (who even says Girlyman's resurrection has not happened yet and got confused due to how time flows in the warp) and the mass gathering of the Chaos fleets awaiting the arrival of Abby's flagship). Then it goes into the attack on Ultramar system. None of this happens after Girlyman resurrects (or is happening at the same time). It leads into the "present" of 40k with the sequel presumably taking place there.
pm713 wrote: the idea that not being able to contact Terra is a major thing is silly because they took centuries to do that anyway.
Its not the idea that they cant contact Terra being the major thing, its the fact that effectively half of the Galaxy can no longer see the Astronomicon, so they cant travel as safely (compared to when they could see it). Communications are cut, more so than they were, and they are cut off.
Cut off from what? And they can still travel just slower.
I think the problem for me is that GW spent ages building up the 1 minute to midnight thing and now midnight has come things are very chill. It's like building up for a HUGE explosion then only a medium one happens.
They're not going to have the huge explosion. That'd be an Age of Sigmar reboot, and I hope to God they learned their lesson on that one. you can be locked in an 8x8 cell or you can be under house arrest unable to leave your home except for groceries. You're pretty much imprisoned either way. Chaos can be stuck in the Eye of Terror, unable to get out, or they can be stuck along the rift seperating the two halves of the Imperium, they're stuck either way. The Imperium can struggle to contain Chaos in the Eye, or they can struggle to contain Chaos in the rift... See? Its all semantics. GW controls what happens, and they're going to control it into a stalemate where its just a matter of scale.
That's kind of the problem. They spend ages building to something they now can't do. As a setting it worked. As a story it doesn't. It's just as dumb as AoS just less badly written.
There's a huge difference between having to hold Cadia and the Rift. There's no reason for Chaos to not utterly devastate the Imperium with their current situation.
There's a huge difference between having to hold Cadia and the Rift. There's no reason for Chaos to not utterly devastate the Imperium with their current situation.
You mean the Chaos that's trying to fight it's way out of the rift with the Imperium on both sides? They're using WWII Germany for inspiration. They let Chaos out of their Eye, and now they're trying to fight the Allies on the Eastern and Western Fronts.
There's a huge difference between having to hold Cadia and the Rift. There's no reason for Chaos to not utterly devastate the Imperium with their current situation.
You mean the Chaos that's trying to fight it's way out of the rift with the Imperium on both sides? They're using WWII Germany for inspiration. They let Chaos out of their Eye, and now they're trying to fight the Allies on the Eastern and Western Fronts.
Except the Imperium can't go into the Rift at all. But the Chaos forces can and they don't need to go around it. They have a massive advantage in manoeuvrability and should be able to move from where they are to winning. The only reason they haven't is because that would end things and GW can't do that. They wrote themselves into a corner and the only way forwards is to retcon or keep piling on the stupid.
Except the Imperium can't go into the Rift at all. But the Chaos forces can and they don't need to go around it. They have a massive advantage in manoeuvrability and should be able to move from where they are to winning. The only reason they haven't is because that would end things and GW can't do that. They wrote themselves into a corner and the only way forwards is to retcon or keep piling on the stupid.
Why can't they go into the Rift? They can't do it as well, and they can't warp through it, but they can go into it can't they? They may or may not have the same navigational expertise once inside but they can physically enter the rift, and launch a surprise attack not? I mean they could do that with the Eye itself. Combine that with traitors within traitors, schisms for power, competition/animosity between the chaos gods themselves and their followers, and there's any number of reasons the forces of Chaos in and around the rift have to watch their backs and move carefully
bouncingboredom wrote:I think it's fine to do narrative development for the characters. Where you run into problems is when the entire universe starts getting shifted about on a massive scale. 40K is only about thirty years old. They could for example have tried playing out the narratives in something close to real time, which explains why the over arching narrative never really shitfs much (it would even play into the idea of the Imperium for example as a slow, cumbersome organisation).
It's a bit like the WHFB issue. They could have switched to a skirmish game and done a lot of things with it without having to blow the entire world up. The problems with GW's story telling structure were in evidence throughout the WHFB run as well, as they struggled to create new and vibrant heroes and instead tried to push these big campaigns that ultimately came to nothing.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think GW did the best job when it came to unfreezing the timeline from one minute to the 13th Black Crusade, it probably would have been more interesting and engaging if we got to play through the aftermath rather than skipping to a new status quo. The biggest development, the Great Rift, is clearly GW trying to make Chaos much more of an existential threat to the Imperium. Having the figurehead of the Chaos faction perpetually bogged down in one warzone really undermined this, as is evident in the all the "armless failure" memes. I can never quite get over how mind-mindbogglingly massive the Imperium is. In the past the only way they could make anything a proper threat to it was by having a Black Crusade or an Ork Waaaagh! poised to strike at Terra itself. The Great Rift sidesteps this by making the front of the conflict much broader.
Gitdakka wrote: I dont get why the setting had to change. We choose 40k because we liked the setting. It was a huge galaxy eith endless options to add more stuff. Nothing had to be removed. This is supposed to be a wargame not a boon or a movie.
Do people who play napoleonics whine that the setting never changes? No! They love the specific setting and make up new battles and scenarios in the same setting. You can take inspiration from available historical events or you can create your own.
I still don't understand the "setting not a story" point of view, GW were constantly retconning the 40k lore to add or delete stuff before, why is it more egregious to change things in a moving timeline rather than in a frozen one? Also, if the setting is the appeal rather than any new narrative developments or warzones that GW might come up with, there's nothing stopping anyone setting their games at earlier point in the timeline, 40k has plenty of scope for "historical" battles.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think GW did the best job when it came to unfreezing the timeline from one minute to the 13th Black Crusade, it probably would have been more interesting and engaging if we got to play through the aftermath rather than skipping to a new status quo. The biggest development, the Great Rift, is clearly GW trying to make Chaos much more of an existential threat to the Imperium. Having the figurehead of the Chaos faction perpetually bogged down in one warzone really undermined this, as is evident in the all the "armless failure" memes. I can never quite get over how mind-mindbogglingly massive the Imperium is. In the past the only way they could make anything a proper threat to it was by having a Black Crusade or an Ork Waaaagh! poised to strike at Terra itself. The Great Rift sidesteps this by making the front of the conflict much broader.
I don't think it would be so bad if the advancing storyline was written by someone competent. One of the main arguments against moving the setting on is GW's reputation for massive incompetence in story telling. There's also that commercial element to worry about.
You could write probably quite a compelling narrative about how one by one many of the main non-codex compliant SM Chapters and/or those with serious geneseed flaws are given an ultimatum; crusade to the last man and die in a blaze of glory or be exterminated as heretics. How does each chapter deal with the proposition? How do their sub-chapters respond? But then you're essentially putting some of your best selling lines on the chopping block with no guarantee that you could replace them with something else e.g. say a BA themed Imperial Guard regiment. Would any sane person trust GW to write these stories in a compelling and interesting way? I fething wouldn't.
There's still room for the story to advance a bit without having to massively change everything else. Take Vigilus. Did anyone know that planet even existed before the books? So what's the harm in having Chaos win there and force the Imperium into retreat for a change, giving Chaos a big win to coincide with some new releases etc? GW can't even score when they have an open goal in front of them, which I think is symbollic of why many people are so nervous about them trying to handle an issue like the advancement of the entire setting.
bouncingboredom wrote: There's still room for the story to advance a bit without having to massively change everything else. Take Vigilus. Did anyone know that planet even existed before the books? So what's the harm in having Chaos win there and force the Imperium into retreat for a change, giving Chaos a big win to coincide with some new releases etc? GW can't even score when they have an open goal in front of them, which I think is symbollic of why many people are so nervous about them trying to handle an issue like the advancement of the entire setting.
I don't think we'll see anything as big as the Fall of Cadia/opening of the Great Rift going forward, I reckon it'll be stuff more like Konor and Vigilus -- campaigns in "important" warzones, but nothing that'll change the galactic map wholesale. I do agree with you on Vigilus, the Imperium could have lost that one and then down the line have won a new path through the Rift as the warp storms ebb and flow.
bouncingboredom wrote: I don't think it would be so bad if the advancing storyline was written by someone competent. One of the main arguments against moving the setting on is GW's reputation for massive incompetence in story telling. There's also that commercial element to worry about.
You could write probably quite a compelling narrative about how one by one many of the main non-codex compliant SM Chapters and/or those with serious geneseed flaws are given an ultimatum; crusade to the last man and die in a blaze of glory or be exterminated as heretics. How does each chapter deal with the proposition? How do their sub-chapters respond? But then you're essentially putting some of your best selling lines on the chopping block with no guarantee that you could replace them with something else e.g. say a BA themed Imperial Guard regiment. Would any sane person trust GW to write these stories in a compelling and interesting way? I fething wouldn't.
As you say, GW has written some pretty questionable lore in the past, but I would point out that some of the worst offenders (Matt Ward's work comes to mind ) was written when the timeline was frozen.
Any particular reason for that example about an Abyssal Crusade type event for the non-compliant Chapters?
bouncingboredom wrote: Take Vigilus. Did anyone know that planet even existed before the books?
Never mind the question of who was going to win on Vigilus; the fact that we had no idea that this world which is of massive strategic importance even existed prior to the campaign illustrates how poor GW is at 'forging a narrative'.
In fact, nobody in-universe seemed to be particularly concerned about it, despite it supposedly being one of the most vital worlds in the Imperium for several hundred years!
bouncingboredom wrote: Take Vigilus. Did anyone know that planet even existed before the books?
Never mind the question of who was going to win on Vigilus; the fact that we had no idea that this world which is of massive strategic importance even existed prior to the campaign illustrates how poor GW is at 'forging a narrative'.
In fact, nobody in-universe seemed to be particularly concerned about it, despite it supposedly being one of the most vital worlds in the Imperium for several hundred years!
Vigilus is only important now because it stands at the mouth of the Nachmund Gauntlet, which didn't exist before the Great Rift. Those "several hundred years" are only the time since the Rift opened, which in real life only happened a little over two years ago.
You could write probably quite a compelling narrative about how one by one many of the main non-codex compliant SM Chapters and/or those with serious geneseed flaws are given an ultimatum; crusade to the last man and die in a blaze of glory or be exterminated as heretics. How does each chapter deal with the proposition? How do their sub-chapters respond? But then you're essentially putting some of your best selling lines on the chopping block with no guarantee that you could replace them with something else e.g. say a BA themed Imperial Guard regiment. Would any sane person trust GW to write these stories in a compelling and interesting way? I fething wouldn't.
There's still room for the story to advance a bit without having to massively change everything else. Take Vigilus. Did anyone know that planet even existed before the books? So what's the harm in having Chaos win there and force the Imperium into retreat for a change, giving Chaos a big win to coincide with some new releases etc? GW can't even score when they have an open goal in front of them, which I think is symbollic of why many people are so nervous about them trying to handle an issue like the advancement of the entire setting.
You want to write off the Space Wolves and the Blood Angels because of genetic deviancy, AND replace them with something else with a similar genetic deviancy theme just in the Imperial Guard, but only want to advance the story without changing everything? Never mind that the Space Wolves were already:
- the very dogs of war the Emperor let slip when he needed to bring a legion back to heel.
- willing to stand up the the Inquisition over sterlising some civilians.
The basic theme you're suggesting is the same morality play in Marvel's Civil War story line, any episode of Star Trek ever, the more metaphysical takes on the Alpha Legion/the Cabal/?Eldrad, etc. It's usually an allegory for some sort of dilemma, racism, or other -phobia/intolerance- First they came for X, and I did nothing because I am not X. Then they came for Y, but I am not Y, when they came for me, I was all that's left.
Assuming we're speaking of the Pre-Vigilus timeline:
Russ Chapter(s) - Extreme phsical deviation - and GW can't even make up their mind on if the Wolves have successor chapters. Likely first Inquisition choice for this edict as the most different combined with recent conflict.
Sanguinius Chapters - Major physical, psychological and psychic deviations. Would extremely oppose this.
In addition to the Blood Angels and Space Wolves:
Dorn chapters - genetic deviation in missing organs, missing librarians - don't want to go down that slippery slope.
Corax chapters - missing organs, melanchromic malfunctions - also don't want to go down this slippery slope
Vulkan Chapters - eyes and skin - not generally considered deviation - potential variation in reaction time - probably don't want to go down this road.
Iron Hands - no physical signs, but their obsession with bionics is postulated as genetic in origin plus psychological blind spots following the death of Ferrus - PROBABLY don't want to go down this road fearing they may be next after the physical signs.
Johnson Chapters - No known genetic deviations, massive codex and technological deviations, plus a strong desire to keep Inquisitorial eyes off of Space Marines in general, and themselves in particular plus close ties/rivalry with the Wolves - they could go either way but I'd lean heavily on being against any sort of enforced conformity and/or change (See their reaction to Primaris Marines).
Khan Chapters - No known deviations, could go either way.
Guilliman Chapters - No known deviations, more than half the space marine contingent of the Imperium. So many chapters that some have diverged culturally (See: Mortifactors) so far they are unlikely to be uniform in response.
Beyond that many of the more obvious deviations trace back to the revered Primarch they inherited them from so it would be quite the tightrope to walk continuing to venerate Russ/Sanguinius/etc, while trashing his sons for having fangs/funky eyes/etc.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think GW did the best job when it came to unfreezing the timeline from one minute to the 13th Black Crusade, it probably would have been more interesting and engaging if we got to play through the aftermath rather than skipping to a new status quo. The biggest development, the Great Rift, is clearly GW trying to make Chaos much more of an existential threat to the Imperium. Having the figurehead of the Chaos faction perpetually bogged down in one warzone really undermined this, as is evident in the all the "armless failure" memes. I can never quite get over how mind-mindbogglingly massive the Imperium is. In the past the only way they could make anything a proper threat to it was by having a Black Crusade or an Ork Waaaagh! poised to strike at Terra itself. The Great Rift sidesteps this by making the front of the conflict much broader.
I don't think it would be so bad if the advancing storyline was written by someone competent. One of the main arguments against moving the setting on is GW's reputation for massive incompetence in story telling. There's also that commercial element to worry about.
You could write probably quite a compelling narrative about how one by one many of the main non-codex compliant SM Chapters and/or those with serious geneseed flaws are given an ultimatum; crusade to the last man and die in a blaze of glory or be exterminated as heretics. How does each chapter deal with the proposition? How do their sub-chapters respond? But then you're essentially putting some of your best selling lines on the chopping block with no guarantee that you could replace them with something else e.g. say a BA themed Imperial Guard regiment. Would any sane person trust GW to write these stories in a compelling and interesting way? I fething wouldn't.
There's still room for the story to advance a bit without having to massively change everything else. Take Vigilus. Did anyone know that planet even existed before the books? So what's the harm in having Chaos win there and force the Imperium into retreat for a change, giving Chaos a big win to coincide with some new releases etc? GW can't even score when they have an open goal in front of them, which I think is symbollic of why many people are so nervous about them trying to handle an issue like the advancement of the entire setting.
GW wou;dn't write those stories because they're Sane. only a insane person would toss a buncha fan favorites on the chopping block "FOR STORY" I mean seriously "a replace the blood angels with a guard regiment" do you have any idea how fething pissed off blood angel fans would be? that's the thing, people on one hand whine bitch and moan that the story is moving, but then scream it's not eneugh because GW didn't see fit to Invalidate a bunch of people's armies and I'm going to go out on a whim here and guess the people pushing for the Ultramarines to be killed don't play ultramarines. people pushing for blood angels to be killed, don't play blood angels etc.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think GW did the best job when it came to unfreezing the timeline from one minute to the 13th Black Crusade, it probably would have been more interesting and engaging if we got to play through the aftermath rather than skipping to a new status quo. The biggest development, the Great Rift, is clearly GW trying to make Chaos much more of an existential threat to the Imperium. Having the figurehead of the Chaos faction perpetually bogged down in one warzone really undermined this, as is evident in the all the "armless failure" memes. I can never quite get over how mind-mindbogglingly massive the Imperium is. In the past the only way they could make anything a proper threat to it was by having a Black Crusade or an Ork Waaaagh! poised to strike at Terra itself. The Great Rift sidesteps this by making the front of the conflict much broader.
I don't think it would be so bad if the advancing storyline was written by someone competent. One of the main arguments against moving the setting on is GW's reputation for massive incompetence in story telling. There's also that commercial element to worry about.
You could write probably quite a compelling narrative about how one by one many of the main non-codex compliant SM Chapters and/or those with serious geneseed flaws are given an ultimatum; crusade to the last man and die in a blaze of glory or be exterminated as heretics. How does each chapter deal with the proposition? How do their sub-chapters respond? But then you're essentially putting some of your best selling lines on the chopping block with no guarantee that you could replace them with something else e.g. say a BA themed Imperial Guard regiment. Would any sane person trust GW to write these stories in a compelling and interesting way? I fething wouldn't.
There's still room for the story to advance a bit without having to massively change everything else. Take Vigilus. Did anyone know that planet even existed before the books? So what's the harm in having Chaos win there and force the Imperium into retreat for a change, giving Chaos a big win to coincide with some new releases etc? GW can't even score when they have an open goal in front of them, which I think is symbollic of why many people are so nervous about them trying to handle an issue like the advancement of the entire setting.
GW wou;dn't write those stories because they're Sane. only a insane person would toss a buncha fan favorites on the chopping block "FOR STORY" I mean seriously "a replace the blood angels with a guard regiment" do you have any idea how fething pissed off blood angel fans would be? that's the thing, people on one hand whine bitch and moan that the story is moving, but then scream it's not eneugh because GW didn't see fit to Invalidate a bunch of people's armies and I'm going to go out on a whim here and guess the people pushing for the Ultramarines to be killed don't play ultramarines. people pushing for blood angels to be killed, don't play blood angels etc.
Yeah, BA should have died to the man vs bugs. Game needs less power armor. Plus, it's a gak army. At this point, why would any BA player care what GW did?
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, BA should have died to the man vs bugs. Game needs less power armor. Plus, it's a gak army. At this point, why would any BA player care what GW did?
Ultramarines and Blood Angels should be dead - all nommed upon by the great Devourer! All hail the Tyranids!
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, BA should have died to the man vs bugs. Game needs less power armor. Plus, it's a gak army. At this point, why would any BA player care what GW did?
Ultramarines and Blood Angels should be dead - all nommed upon by the great Devourer! All hail the Tyranids!
Even im not cynical enough to not expect um to survive. But BA? They're expendable. The rules writers prove this constantly.
bouncingboredom wrote: Take Vigilus. Did anyone know that planet even existed before the books?
Never mind the question of who was going to win on Vigilus; the fact that we had no idea that this world which is of massive strategic importance even existed prior to the campaign illustrates how poor GW is at 'forging a narrative'.
In fact, nobody in-universe seemed to be particularly concerned about it, despite it supposedly being one of the most vital worlds in the Imperium for several hundred years!
Vigilus is only important now because it stands at the mouth of the Nachmund Gauntlet, which didn't exist before the Great Rift. Those "several hundred years" are only the time since the Rift opened, which in real life only happened a little over two years ago.
I don't see how that's in any way a refutation of what I wrote..?
The importance of Vigilus wasn't highlighted/built up over those two real world years. A well crafted narrative wouldn't have sprung the importance of the world on the reader [us, the players] from basically nowhere with no build up.
Compare, for example, the 3rd War of Armageddon campaign where we knew something of the importance of Armageddon and had a reason to be invested in the fate of the world; to the Fall of Medusa V, which was a planet we'd never heard of before (and which has barely been acknowledged since), and had little reason to care about.
And the world doesn't appear to have been greatly fortified or defended during the in-universe several hundred years. The Imperium has been traversing the Nachmund Gauntlet for most of that period; they have a Chapter tasked with guarding it specifically; they require Vigilus to maintain their hold over the region and allow access to Imperium Nihilus; and yet they're cool with a Waaagh! roaming over large parts of the planet apparently..?
Affordability doesn't mean anything if you are unhappy. And it's not army hopping if you change once every 5 editions.
If you want to participate in this hobby, then you're going to spend money. If you want to win regularly, then you're going to spend money. It's the nature of the beast.
I think you want GW to kill the Blood Angels because you can't bring yourself to quit them on your own. It's a "Suicide by Cop" scenario.
Andersp90 wrote: So the first primarch has returned, and more are probably coming. The aeldari have received a possible "get-out-of-jail-free" card in the form of Ynnead, and the tyranid threat has been diminished by the the great rift.
Put short, there is hope.
But what do you think of this change in the setting? Good, bad?
This change has been long heralded, and the changes to the lore I don't like have been established well before the coming of 8e. I'm not super invested in the Imperium's status as being on the offense or defense, though I do have to say I welcome the shift to offensive operations since the whole "defiant last stand as the last hope for mankind" is kind of old.
As far as things I don't like: I feel like some of the satire extant in 40k has been being lost with the greater relevance of heroes and Imperial leaders to the lore. That said, they've also been doing a lot of good things recently, like Regimental Standard, that do keep to the satirical side of the game.
That said, I understand the requirement for simplification, since it needs to be appealed to middle and high school audiences if we want the hobby as a whole to survive.
nurgle5 wrote:Any particular reason for that example about an Abyssal Crusade type event for the non-compliant Chapters?
If selling models was not a concern and "progressing the narrative" or whatever we want to call it was the main thing, then I think it would be an interesting story to look into. The potential scope of that story is enormous and the multiple ways it could be handled would be intriguing. Would certainly satisfy somes desire for a shake up! Agree on the point that some pretty horrendous stuff has been written by GW inside what is essentially self contained narratives. The difference there is that it's self contained. You can write a horrible story about a new/unheard of Black Templars character and it doesn't spill over into the wider universe vs letting GW loose with something as narrative disrupting as say a true black crusade to Earth.
Lord Damocles wrote:the fact that we had no idea that this world which is of massive strategic importance even existed prior to the campaign illustrates how poor GW is at 'forging a narrative'. In fact, nobody in-universe seemed to be particularly concerned about it, despite it supposedly being one of the most vital worlds in the Imperium for several hundred years!
Bloody good points.
Breton wrote:You want to write off the Space Wolves and the Blood Angels because of genetic deviancy, AND replace them with something else with a similar genetic deviancy theme just in the Imperial Guard, but only want to advance the story without changing everything? etc, etc
No, I simply used that as an example. I can't imagine if you had a BA inspired Guard regiment it would involve any degree of genetic deviancy. It would likely involve them slapping the BA version of the aquilla on their rifles/standards etc and developing an unhealthy obsession with melta weapons and CQC (especially unhealthy for Guardsmen...), while maybe creating their own "Death Company", except without the black rage and more of the black-mark-with-the-Commissar.
BrianDavion wrote:GW wou;dn't write those stories because they're Sane. only a insane person would toss a buncha fan favorites on the chopping block "FOR STORY" I mean seriously "a replace the blood angels with a guard regiment" do you have any idea how fething pissed off blood angel fans would be?
Yes. Which is why I specifically mentioned GW looking at the idea from a sales perspective. Try not half reading the post next time.
Martel732 wrote:BA should have died to the man vs bugs.. Plus, it's a gak army.
The sales of Blood Angles miniatures, even the humble Tactical Squad, would appear to suggest that is not a commonly held opinion.
Leave my BA alone. Just because one of a group wants to die doesn't mean the rest do. The issue is not there is too many power armour armies it's that they have the lions share of models. I could cope with BA being merged in the regular SM codex.
Martel732 wrote: There is a sucker born every minute. Every 10 seconds in the
US.
I'm sticking with the game needs less power armor. I volunteer ba and sw as tribute.
Your posts seem to contradict each other. You don't want to army hop due to the cost, which I get to a degree, but you also want GW to remove your army from the game. Which would make your army completely devoid of any value or use bar finding someone who wanted to play an earlier edition.
Idk if your local gaming area is just opposed to taking a toned down list against a weaker faction to give both players a solid game or you get off on being miserable but I really don't get why you continue to play both an army and hobby your claim to hate.
bouncingboredom wrote: Take Vigilus. Did anyone know that planet even existed before the books?
Never mind the question of who was going to win on Vigilus; the fact that we had no idea that this world which is of massive strategic importance even existed prior to the campaign illustrates how poor GW is at 'forging a narrative'.
In fact, nobody in-universe seemed to be particularly concerned about it, despite it supposedly being one of the most vital worlds in the Imperium for several hundred years!
Vigilus is only important now because it stands at the mouth of the Nachmund Gauntlet, which didn't exist before the Great Rift. Those "several hundred years" are only the time since the Rift opened, which in real life only happened a little over two years ago.
I don't see how that's in any way a refutation of what I wrote..?
The importance of Vigilus wasn't highlighted/built up over those two real world years. A well crafted narrative wouldn't have sprung the importance of the world on the reader [us, the players] from basically nowhere with no build up.
Compare, for example, the 3rd War of Armageddon campaign where we knew something of the importance of Armageddon and had a reason to be invested in the fate of the world; to the Fall of Medusa V, which was a planet we'd never heard of before (and which has barely been acknowledged since), and had little reason to care about.
And the world doesn't appear to have been greatly fortified or defended during the in-universe several hundred years. The Imperium has been traversing the Nachmund Gauntlet for most of that period; they have a Chapter tasked with guarding it specifically; they require Vigilus to maintain their hold over the region and allow access to Imperium Nihilus; and yet they're cool with a Waaagh! roaming over large parts of the planet apparently..?
timey whimy stuff is a bit odd, it might have been a few hundred years for vigilus and a week for the IoM. and it's not like the world is undefended. at the end of the day it basicly held out against 3 events that would have been eneugh to destroy your average world
bouncingboredom wrote:Agree on the point that some pretty horrendous stuff has been written by GW inside what is essentially self contained narratives. The difference there is that it's self contained. You can write a horrible story about a new/unheard of Black Templars character and it doesn't spill over into the wider universe vs letting GW loose with something as narrative disrupting as say a true black crusade to Earth.
Those "self contained" narratives had some pretty big implications for wider 40k setting. A lot of people were quite upset at things like the original version of the Bloodtide incident or Blood Angels teaming up with Necrons, back when the latter were still mindless robots, because they fundamentally undermined a collective understanding of who those factions are and how they operate. Is it more disruptive to the narrative to widen the front of a conflict or to change the character of some of the main participants?
Lord Damocles wrote:Medusa V, which was a planet we'd never heard of before (and which has barely been acknowledged since), and had little reason to care about.
There probably hasn't been any reason to mention it since the Fall of Medusa V campaign was erased from the 40k timeline.
Martel732 wrote: I don't army hop. It's the only way this is affordable.
Wouldn't you need to get a new army anyway if GW did what you want and deleted yours from the game?
So upon reading more comments it's pretty obvious that a lot of people have strange misconceptions about the recent lore. There is nothing limiting about it, in fact we finally have a justification for Tau to be in different parts of the galaxy.
There is nothing lighter about the setting, with the exception of the newer artwork always being in full colour. The new lore is mainly to introduce new models, all of which are better and more realistic than things in the past.
"Wouldn't you need to get a new army anyway if GW did what you want and deleted yours from the game?"
I could at least kind of justify it then. Or take a vacation.
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Ishagu wrote: So upon reading more comments it's pretty obvious that a lot of people have strange misconceptions about the recent lore. There is nothing limiting about it, in fact we finally have a justification for Tau to be in different parts of the galaxy.
There is nothing lighter about the setting, with the exception of the newer artwork always being in full colour. The new lore is mainly to introduce new models, all of which are better and more realistic than things in the past.
Martel732 wrote: "Wouldn't you need to get a new army anyway if GW did what you want and deleted yours from the game?"
I could at least kind of justify it then. Or take a vacation.
Going by your posts you've been having a bit of miserable time with your current army since (I'm guessing) 6th ed. dropped in 2012, ever hear of the sunk cost fallacy?
Martel732 wrote: "Wouldn't you need to get a new army anyway if GW did what you want and deleted yours from the game?"
I could at least kind of justify it then. Or take a vacation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ishagu wrote: So upon reading more comments it's pretty obvious that a lot of people have strange misconceptions about the recent lore. There is nothing limiting about it, in fact we finally have a justification for Tau to be in different parts of the galaxy.
There is nothing lighter about the setting, with the exception of the newer artwork always being in full colour. The new lore is mainly to introduce new models, all of which are better and more realistic than things in the past.
There's nothing realistic about 40K. At all.
If you actually learn to read, you'll realise that I'm talking about the models. The new Primaris Marines have more realistic proportions. Same with other recent kits as well. My statement is factually correct.
Martel732 wrote: "Wouldn't you need to get a new army anyway if GW did what you want and deleted yours from the game?"
I could at least kind of justify it then. Or take a vacation.
Going by your posts you've been having a bit of miserable time with your current army since (I'm guessing) 6th ed. dropped in 2012, ever hear of the sunk cost fallacy?
Martel732 wrote: "Wouldn't you need to get a new army anyway if GW did what you want and deleted yours from the game?"
I could at least kind of justify it then. Or take a vacation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ishagu wrote: So upon reading more comments it's pretty obvious that a lot of people have strange misconceptions about the recent lore. There is nothing limiting about it, in fact we finally have a justification for Tau to be in different parts of the galaxy.
There is nothing lighter about the setting, with the exception of the newer artwork always being in full colour. The new lore is mainly to introduce new models, all of which are better and more realistic than things in the past.
There's nothing realistic about 40K. At all.
If you actually learn to read, you'll realise that I'm talking about the models. The new Primaris Marines have more realistic proportions. Same with other recent kits as well. My statement is factually correct.
Fair enough so, just seems a bit strange to me that someone would consciously value a relatively small monetary investment over their time and enjoyment across the better part of a decade
Fair enough so, just seems a bit strange to me that someone would consciously value a relatively small monetary investment over their time and enjoyment across the better part of a decade
I think some people get pleasure out of hating and bashing things forever. If he got a new army that he liked he wouldn't know what to do with himself lol
nurgle5 wrote:Those "self contained" narratives had some pretty big implications for wider 40k setting. A lot of people were quite upset at things like the original version of the Bloodtide incident or Blood Angels teaming up with Necrons, back when the latter were still mindless robots, because they fundamentally undermined a collective understanding of who those factions are and how they operate. Is it more disruptive to the narrative to widen the front of a conflict or to change the character of some of the main participants?
I actually have a small shred of sympathy for Matt Ward over that, because if I remember the line(s) were something along the lines of: a major Tyranid attack happened - they both turned on the Tyranids as the greater threat (for survival reasons and with no mention of any alliance, or indeed any kind of coordinated campaign) - at the end they were simply too exhausted and depleted to actually continue fighting each other. It was less a "bro, thanks for the help" and more of a "if we back away slowly, maybe they will too". Nothing about the battle really implies an alliance of any kind and it's implicit that the incident was peculiar to that situation, yet people make it out like the BA and Necrons signed some kind of lasting treaty of friendship and solidarity.
Part of the problem with the whole Great Rift is that there's no good explanation that I can see as to why Chaos hasn't completely swamped the galaxy already. Abaddon is still being written as slowly building his campaign around securing certain strongholds and protecting his lines of communication like some medieval crusade, despite the fact that he has virtually unfettered access to a Chaos superhighway that bisects most of the known empire of man. The Great Rift should have been a cataclysmic event that spelled the beginning of the end for the Imperium, yet right now it's being treated as little more than a logistical inconvenience.
Part of the problem with the whole Great Rift is that there's no good explanation that I can see as to why Chaos hasn't completely swamped the galaxy already. Abaddon is still being written as slowly building his campaign around securing certain strongholds and protecting his lines of communication like some medieval crusade, despite the fact that he has virtually unfettered access to a Chaos superhighway that bisects most of the known empire of man. The Great Rift should have been a cataclysmic event that spelled the beginning of the end for the Imperium, yet right now it's being treated as little more than a logistical inconvenience.
I am not up to speed with the new lore beyond the BRB, box set stuff and hearsay. However, the Cicatrix Maledictum has created a huge front that Chaos can can strike from. Which has its pros and cons. Perhaps the biggest cons is that even among the Black Legion there are varying degrees of fealty given to Abbadon usually measured in the distance in which the Warmaster can punish said warband if they don't continue actively participating in the Black Crusade. The Word Bearers were pretty slow in the Emporer's Great Crusade and they probably had a far better work ethic than any given Black Legion warband not to mention allied CSM warbands. The command and control has to be almost non existent at this point anywhere abbadon or his most loyal followers aren't.
Another issue is the Imperium of Man is a really big place and even Chaos doesn't have the kind of numbers (and even less coordination) to make much of a dent in it quickly. Heck, not even all the forces aligned against the IoM can make a dent very quickly given the sheer size of it. There is a good chance that the galaxy map we see is merely the death rattle of entire systems that have fallen to foes of man but the Imperium doesn't know it yet.
Finally, if the Cicatrix Maledictum works anything like the Eye of Terror, communication, travel, sanctuary or anything is up to the will of the Dark Gods even for someone as favored as Abbadon, Chaos Space Marines don't get a free pass to move through it even if they did prepare a skull pyramid blood fountain just like Khorne likes it. They just have a better chance of moving through it. Chaos is chaos. As for Chaos as a whole all of this is still an amusing distraction or side game to the Great Game constantly played. The four gods probably don't really care what happens all that much, and it is in there best interest to keep the IoM on the brink for as long possible to feed them.
Martel's not wrong here. If Chaos was united 100% behind Abaddon and wanted to drive for Terra.. they could. it'd be hard to stop them. Problem is.. they're not united. We've seen this with Khrone's attack on Terra (a rushed affair that was doomed to failure from the start) with the Death Guard and Nurgle deciding they want to build a "greater empire of nurgle" on the bones of Macragge. The 1k sons likewise building their own empire, etc. basicly the forces of chaos, now unleashed are off doing their own thing.
Ishagu wrote:...new models, all of which are better and more realistic than things in the past.
Now this I take issue with. Aggressors, Suppressors and Repulsors are not better than anything that existed in the past. They're terrible models.
The suppressors are a bit wonky lol, I agree.
Aggressors and the Repulsor are great model, the Repulsor being the best of the Astartes tanks with the exception of the Sicarans.
Yeah, I'll take the classic Predator over the Repulsar any day. Way to many guns (and non marine weapons to boot) and GW just having hover tech being common again for the IOM is annoying and cheapens the setting.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Yeah, I'll take the classic Predator over the Repulsar any day. Way to many guns (and non marine weapons to boot) and GW just having hover tech being common again for the IOM is annoying and cheapens the setting.
I don't think the Repulsor is the best vehicle in the space marine range either (it's okay imho, the grav stuff looks a bit like a snow-sled),but it's still far from being the worst!
Fair enough so, just seems a bit strange to me that someone would consciously value a relatively small monetary investment over their time and enjoyment across the better part of a decade
Martel is the biggest masochist on the forums, and they've been banging this drum for literally years without a break. Don't engage, you will not be the one to make them see reason. Just nod, smile and change the subject.
Chaos doesn't even need to be united. Just look at the size of the rift. The Imperium might be vast but it doesn't have anywhere near enough guardsmen, marines or ships to be able to adequately cover that much frontage. Even just random chaos spillage should be making solid progress.
Part of the problem with the whole Great Rift is that there's no good explanation that I can see as to why Chaos hasn't completely swamped the galaxy already. Abaddon is still being written as slowly building his campaign around securing certain strongholds and protecting his lines of communication like some medieval crusade, despite the fact that he has virtually unfettered access to a Chaos superhighway that bisects most of the known empire of man. The Great Rift should have been a cataclysmic event that spelled the beginning of the end for the Imperium, yet right now it's being treated as little more than a logistical inconvenience.
But... That's exactly what happens? It is implied that half of the Imperium is in ruins with Daemons running Amok everywhere. It's not like before where you were quite safe if you lived far away from the Eye or the Maelstrom, now not just Orks are everywhere, but Chaos, too. Even incursions and Chaos cults happen more often because people may turn to Chaos just from looking up in the sky (see Vigilus).
It comes down to the IOM being better run than it has in centuries via Bobby G vs Abby having a huge chunk of his forces splinter off as chaos is going to chaos. It was a lot easier to marshal a united front when they were all pent up in the Eye, now that so much is in reach to raid and reap, why should I take orders from anyone but myself.
It reminds me a bit of the western roman empire near the end. It had to much territory to guard and had to rely more and more on smaller and smaller units to guard it's borders backed up by newer barbarian mercenaries who ultimately proved untrustworthy.
Bobby G is literally the only thing holding things together by sheer force of will.
I should also note that things in Imperium Nihlius are BAD. we've not gotten many looks at it, but the looks we've gotten seem kinda grimdark. I suggest people read "The Emperor's Spears" it really paints a bleak outlook for what's going on in Imperium Nihlus. the Long story short is chaos warbands are delving out little pocket empires everywhere and the Imperial loyalist forces are slowly losing more and more. the book outright says, Imperium Nihlus is LOST. there's gonna be little pocket enclaves sure, but the IoM is NEVER reclaiming that territory.. unless by some mircle, they can close the rift (which won't ever happen no more then a perminant peace treaty between humanity and the Tau will happen. or Abaddon taking terra or any of the other things that will end the wars)
BrianDavion wrote: I should also note that things in Imperium Nihlius are BAD. we've not gotten many looks at it, but the looks we've gotten seem kinda grimdark. I suggest people read "The Emperor's Spears" it really paints a bleak outlook for what's going on in Imperium Nihlus. the Long story short is chaos warbands are delving out little pocket empires everywhere and the Imperial loyalist forces are slowly losing more and more. the book outright says, Imperium Nihlus is LOST. there's gonna be little pocket enclaves sure, but the IoM is NEVER reclaiming that territory.. unless by some mircle, they can close the rift (which won't ever happen no more then a perminant peace treaty between humanity and the Tau will happen. or Abaddon taking terra or any of the other things that will end the wars)
Perfect for all those Imperial vs Imperial matches. Different factions fighting over resources or because they genuinely think they should be the ones in charge on behalf of the Imperium for “the duration of the emergency”. Neither side even has to be truly Chaos corrupted. Lots of individual planets, subsectors, or sectors becoming de facto pocket empires while theoretically waiting for contact and rescue by the wider Imperium, which never comes.
