I have a Weirdboy and use Tellyporta in every match and I still find myself facing the opponent's relatively fresh gunline (I maybe inflicted a couple wounds, while moving to melee) with my Orks who have been shot to oblivion. Even Da Jumping units, or flanking or tellyporta, opponents just Fall Back and erase the unit that charged them with their gunline. Even Unstoppable Green Tide has been quite underwhelming.
"You bring your 2000 points of Marines and I will bring 500 points of Orks, if I can set up on your forces. We can skip the first two or three turns, this way." This is how games feel. Then again, I am such a fatalist that I do not feel it is even worth setting up the army because of the effort involved with setting up and removing a hundred or so minis. It takes for ever and is a waste of time. I have to buy how many of units of boys and gretchin WITH THE EXPECTATION OF THEM DOING NOTHING BUT EATING WOUNDS? I feel pretty ripped off. YEs, I am aware it is a horde.army, I was not aware that melee is such a gak-show waste of time. I have ZERO motivation to paint anything but characters and vehicles, which makes me feel like a.piece of gak when someone shows up with a beautifully painted army.
Having to rely upon bypassing movement in order to have a shot at getting a unit in range to charge is a glaring sign that the system is flawed.
"The game feels tailored for shooting armies and punishes melee ones."
I almost want to charge people to play against me. If I am going to lose and they are going to have a great time scoring all the wounds and I am stuck feeling like an impotent pile of gak loser, why can I not get something for my time?
While it it is impossible to say what you are doing wrong from so little information, it appears you have fallen into the trap of thinking Orks are just a close combat horde army. They are a lot more than that.
So in propa-orky fashion, I say it sounds like you need to bring more dakka.
Yeah, it looks like you're focused on CC presence to the exclusion of any sort of ranged ability. This can work if the map you play on has enough LOS-blocking terrain, but since you said you're getting shot to oblivion in Turn 1, I'm guessing there's not a lot of places to hide for you. With so little good ranged options, you're gonna suffer. In fact, against a list with a large Flyer population, you're pretty much guaranteed a loss. You're gonna want more ranged units.
Alternatively, consider pushing more into a "greentide" list. Your three units of Boyz can and will be massacred, but 150-180 Boyz will probably be too much for your opponent to effectively deal with. You definitely need a Kultur for your detachments are well. For CC focused, I'd recommend Evil Sunz, for more reliable charges.
While its generally appears that this edition does favor shooty armies over choppy ones, it's also supposed to favor horde's over elites so at least you've got that going for the green tide.
Maybe its the missions you're playing? If you can flood the board with Orks for 3-4 turns before the other guy can get out of his deployment zone you've probably already decided a game where progressive scoring matters.
Or perhaps its just a case of a more casual approach while the other dude is running more competitive builds? I've played a handful of extremely fun and close games with one of the newer guys in our club by toning down my list, last game I wanted to try a more competitive build (having just painted up some models for an event) and honestly regret it. It was by far the worst game we've had and despite him trying to be a good sport; neither of us enjoyed it much. Which really drove home the point of having to play at a similar 'competitive level' as overall things are not closely balanced. I'm not very knowledgeable on Orks ,but before the latest FAQ they seemed to be able to compete fairly well. Maybe checking some tournament lists for new combinations or inspiration to get that extra punch would be helpful?
Last thing I can think of is see if anyone else has a melee centric force that would like to see some table time? Any Nids, BA, Templars, Demons, Harlequins around that wouldn't mind getting into a slugfest?
Hope you can get a good game or two in and regain some of the motivation for painting your WAAAGH!
Sorry, I must have forgotten to include the Kulturs; I run Goff. Does not make sense for a foot-slogging force to be Evil Sunz beyond gaming the rules. I have tried using the Evil Sunz Kultur and was underwhelmed. The additional movement is nothing but lip-service with only 3 extra inches of movement IF you manage to also charge that turn.
Yeah, my Tankbustas never survive to turn 2 (or even my first turn, as I never finish deploying first and lose 90% of the rolls to see who goes first. Even if I do go first, it just means even more of my stuff is in range of their guns and I still cannot hit anything with more than Big Shootas because blah blah blah)
I hate the look of the new Mek Gunz, but I hear that they are essential, as well as varying reports on which gun to take and which are to be avoided. The new vehicles, while awesome looking and have neat abilities, are not my style. Battlewagons and Trukks are more my speed. (Ba dum tss)
At lower points games, I take a higher ratio of Boyz and Gretchin; basically just removing units from Heavy > Fast > Elites, as needed.
I want to stress that my goal is NOT winning, but having a game that feels close and balanced and this has not been the case for the majority of my games. I am able to still have fun and lose a game, but being steamrolled constantly is not enjoyable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have fought Harlequins and could not break their saves and got roundly decimated. They were in my deployment zone turn 1, as well.
BA can go feth themselves. I do not care that it was over 5 years ago that it happened, but I am NEVER playing against a Blood Angels player ever again.
I have had some close matches, I can not not say that. Not every game has been a wash, just most of them. I have had fun moments in games, as well. Just, by the end of the opponent's turn 2 I have so little left that even capping objectives is trouvlesome. Orks just do not have the saves that other forces do. And if GW wants us to be fielding 150+ Boyz in our lists, the could they at least give us equal numbers of legs and torsos in the Boyz box? Maybe double the number of Boyz in a box? I am still feeling pretty ripped off (and poor, let us not forget that I am starving myself to be able to have an activity that is not "sitting alone and berating or beating myself")
General Malarky wrote: Sorry, I must have forgotten to include the Kulturs; I run Goff. Does not make sense for a foot-slogging force to be Evil Sunz beyond gaming the rules. I have tried using the Evil Sunz Kultur and was underwhelmed. The additional movement is nothing but lip-service with only 3 extra inches of movement IF you manage to also charge that turn.
Yeah, my Tankbustas never survive to turn 2 (or even my first turn, as I never finish deploying first and lose 90% of the rolls to see who goes first. Even if I do go first, it just means even more of my stuff is in range of their guns and I still cannot hit anything with more than Big Shootas because blah blah blah)
I hate the look of the new Mek Gunz, but I hear that they are essential, as well as varying reports on which gun to take and which are to be avoided. The new vehicles, while awesome looking and have neat abilities, are not my style. Battlewagons and Trukks are more my speed. (Ba dum tss)
At lower points games, I take a higher ratio of Boyz and Gretchin; basically just removing units from Heavy > Fast > Elites, as needed.
I want to stress that my goal is NOT winning, but having a game that feels close and balanced and this has not been the case for the majority of my games. I am able to still have fun and lose a game, but being steamrolled constantly is not enjoyable.
Finishing first deploying units has nothing to do with going first or second. Are you using the most updated rules?
Also, which missions are you playing? Castled ranged lists have the advantage on being the last one standing, but have a huge handicap when there are progressive scoring objectives around, so if you are using the last published missions you should be easily winning a lot of games against those kind of lists.
The only advice I can give is go evil sunz for easier deep strike charge (and 3"/turn makes a difference!) and to get some mek gunz. Otherwise yeah, welcome to orks. We suck...
General Malarky wrote: Sorry, I must have forgotten to include the Kulturs; I run Goff. Does not make sense for a foot-slogging force to be Evil Sunz beyond gaming the rules. I have tried using the Evil Sunz Kultur and was underwhelmed. The additional movement is nothing but lip-service with only 3 extra inches of movement IF you manage to also charge that turn.
Yeah, my Tankbustas never survive to turn 2 (or even my first turn, as I never finish deploying first and lose 90% of the rolls to see who goes first. Even if I do go first, it just means even more of my stuff is in range of their guns and I still cannot hit anything with more than Big Shootas because blah blah blah)
I hate the look of the new Mek Gunz, but I hear that they are essential, as well as varying reports on which gun to take and which are to be avoided. The new vehicles, while awesome looking and have neat abilities, are not my style. Battlewagons and Trukks are more my speed. (Ba dum tss)
At lower points games, I take a higher ratio of Boyz and Gretchin; basically just removing units from Heavy > Fast > Elites, as needed.
I want to stress that my goal is NOT winning, but having a game that feels close and balanced and this has not been the case for the majority of my games. I am able to still have fun and lose a game, but being steamrolled constantly is not enjoyable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have fought Harlequins and could not break their saves and got roundly decimated. They were in my deployment zone turn 1, as well.
BA can go feth themselves. I do not care that it was over 5 years ago that it happened, but I am NEVER playing against a Blood Angels player ever again.
I have had some close matches, I can not not say that. Not every game has been a wash, just most of them. I have had fun moments in games, as well. Just, by the end of the opponent's turn 2 I have so little left that even capping objectives is trouvlesome. Orks just do not have the saves that other forces do. And if GW wants us to be fielding 150+ Boyz in our lists, the could they at least give us equal numbers of legs and torsos in the Boyz box? Maybe double the number of Boyz in a box? I am still feeling pretty ripped off (and poor, let us not forget that I am starving myself to be able to have an activity that is not "sitting alone and berating or beating myself"
Both your gaming perspective (subjective but nobody plays to lose)/list building are awful (don't take it as an insult):
1) Goff is literally the worst chapter tactic you could pick here. No explanation needed. EVERY single chapter tactic out there would improve your list by a considerable margin.
2) Adding models to gretchins is a horrible decision by itself: you're taking them for CPs and the moment you put more than 10 models in the unit you're worsening the CP per Point ratio and also making yourself pretty much vulnerable to any Leadership test (if any, considering they're T2 6+).
3) Tankbustas are awful for their cost, just go Lootas if you want to shoot reasonably well at most targets. Also 48" > 24" is a much safer shooting condition to achieve.
4) You either go for 20 Orks in a Battlewagon or 30s on field. 20 on field do not accomplish anything and pretty much istantly lose their 20+ models bonus to ANYTHING that looks at them.
5) Single Deff Dread and 5 Warbikes are worthless. You either go with multiples to achieve tactical saturation or you do not play them at all.
6) A Trukk is there for either Meganobz or Nobz: are you trying to Put the other unit in reserve coming turn 2? I wouldn't do it if I weren't Evil Sunz at all.
As was said, for what you want to achieve, Goff isn't a great Kultur. Hell, you aren't even using any Goff exclusives (Mad Dok, Ghaz, Skar Boyz) which are 90% of the reason to use the Kultur. That said, I don't think your list is terrible. It just isnt competitive. You lack Dakka, and the meta is not friendly to lists with little to no ranged presence.
And as others have said, try using different mission/objective packs.
So now I have not even bought the right books... feth me, eh?
Oh no, you have. To start with.
But GW is in the business of always trying to sell you something more. More models, more books, terrain, misc stuff, etc They always have been & always will be.
To that end they've continued to publish more missions in the Chapter Approved books. So guess what you need to track down. And come about November they'll put out another CA volume....
You're hitting on a lot of the right ideas and you're doing some things spot on. You've got a great base of Troops, your HQ choices are solid and you're aiming for the right stratagems.
If those are all of the models you own you've got the beginnings of a very solid collection but it's going to be difficult to build a synergistic list if you try to include all of it at once. I would say that the main issue is you're playing 2000 point games when what you've actually got is two coherent 1000/1250/1500 point lists. If possible, while you're building your collection, I would ask to play smaller point games. Having a large collection, as many other gamers have, is a huge advantage in that you can build multiple types of synergistic lists.
Here's a rough example of what I might do at lower points levels with the models you have
Slugga boyz x 30 - tankbusta bomb x 3, boss nob with power klaw/big choppa
Slugga boyz x 30 - tankbusta bomb x 3, boss nob with power klaw/big choppa
Slugga boyz x 20 - tankbusta bomb x 2, boss nob with power klaw/big choppa
Evil Sunz Battalion
Big mek - KFF, big choppa
Weirdboy - fists of gork/warpath
Gretchin x 10
Gretchin x 10
Gretchin x 10
About 1000 points. Tellyporta 2 Boyz squads, deploy the third out of range/line of sight of enemy units and then da jump it turn 1 if it looks like a good idea, or turn 2 when your Tellyporta units arrive. Use Grots to camp backfield objectives, spread them out to deny deepstrike space and use them to protect characters. Aim to use Get Stuck In, Endless Greentide and Orks is Never Beaten stratagems. Use auto-pass morale if a unit overextends away from Warboss and gets shot to bits The unit of Boyz deployed on the board fuel the Weirdboy to enhance his da jump cast. If the enemy has snipers you must deploy da jump Weirdboy out of range/LoS, of that's not possible you need more terrain or to take da jump on the other Weirdboy too. A proper in-your-face melee list that can hide from enemy firepower in the early game and hopefully overwhelm from turn 2. For a larger game add in the unit of Nobz/Meganobz and Tellyporta them as well, or alternatively hide them at the back of the board turn 1 and da jump. You can always swap the sluggas for shootas in this list.
Shoota boyz x 30 - tankbusta bomb x 3, boss nob with power klaw
Gretchin x 10
Gretchin x 10
Nobz x 5 - boss nob with power klaw and choppa, everyone else with choppa x 2
Meganobz x 5 - power klaws, shootas
Trukk
Evil Sunz Outrider
Big mek - KFF
Warbikers x 3 - boss nob
Skorcha buggy
Skorcha buggy
That's a bit over 900 points, can add to it whatever - a Tellyporta Deff Dread, more Warbikers etc. Plan would be Tellyporta Mega Nobz, embark Nobz in Trukk, deploy everything under KFF. Of.you go second deploy defensively out of range/line of sight of as many guns as possible and utilise your superior speed to counter attack. Warbikers, Skorchas and shoota boyz can advance turn 1 to clear screens if necessary or those fast vehicles can not advance and instead charge into a squishy/vulnerable unit. Boyz can instead be deployed defensively like the first list, at the back of the board ready to be da jumped.
___
You've got a really aggressive list but it's always worth keeping in mind you don't need to deploy as close to the enemy as possible. With da jump, Tellyporta and Evil Sunz Kultur you've got a lot of options of play defensively and still end up being the offensive player, if that makes sense, it might just not be on turn 1. Sometimes it's worth delaying the bulk of your attack until turn 2 by simply not being in the firing line.
If you are going to continue expanding your collection you might try done better results with adding some shooting units. A Shokk Attack Gun Big Mek and some Lootas would be a great place to start.
I'll also add that the Chapter Approved 2018 Maelstrom missions are a much better and more balanced way of playing the game, that alone would make things much more interesting.
So now I have not even bought the right books... feth me, eh?
Do yourself a favor and find the missions from CA18, it will really help in turning the tables against ranged armies.
The tweak in that works like this, so feel free to throw this into the classic missions. All the 2018 missions use it so it's kind of a fix rather than an add on, as the missions themselves are very different.
Set up terrain and deploy objectives.
Both players roll a dice, winner picks deployment map and deployment zone.
Loser then deploys their army.
Winner then deploys their army
Whoever finishes deployment first (!) goes first - unless the enemy seizes.
So you should know what you're getting into. Infiltrators get you ground and a buffer, but might cost you the initiative if the enemy is moving on in force rather than reconnoitring the various fronts.
There is a lot - I repeat a LOT - of depth to close combat. It's really tricky to get right, and requires some tricky tactics, an awareness of the game state and objectives, and knowing where you want to be. Here's some fantastic tricks:
THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE OF CLOSE COMBAT:
"With rare exception, never put your models in base to base contact with the enemy."
The reason for this is that so long as your models aren't in base to base contact, you can use the rules to gain extra movement for your models by ensuring they end closer to your opponent's models than before, even if that move takes them on a merry-go-round path closer, meaning that in actuality you gained almost all that extra distance just by piling in and consolidating. Most of the tricky tactics listed below will require this extra movement. The only time you DO want to be in base to base contact with the enemy is to deny your opponent the chance to do the exact same thing.
#1 - "Pinning" units;
- Requirements; an enemy model can be surrounded on 3 sides after you're done your attacks.
- Action: When you're done making your attacks, if you have 3 models that can surround an enemy model on three sides (forming an equilateral triangle), you can "pin" your opponent's model there. That model can now not leave combat, because any move they take would be through your models, which they're not allowed to do (unless they can jump over them with Fly or the like).
- Result: Your super powered close combat unit now is 100% safe from shooting. So long as you kill your opponent's unit in their turn, you're just laughing.
- Countering: If you keep your models close enough together such that enemy models can't surround them, then any path that is as big as at least one of your models can allow the whole unit to escape. Generally you need a line of models that are 2 ranks deep. A very savvy general can try to purposefully fail their morale test by enough so that they can remove the pinned models from the unit in order to escape.
#2 - Pile into units that you won't be fighting.
- Requirements: A second nearby enemy unit, and enough models that you will be able to maintain squad coherency.
- Action: When declaring the targets of a charge, purposefully don't declare a second unit as your target, but send models towards them anyways. Your intention at the very least should be to "tag" the unit such that the unit won't be able to shoot when they leave combat, whilst you take minimal retaliatory attacks, but it's amazing when you can achieve Tactic #1 and pin that unit. Since you didn't declare them as a charge, you can't attack them (though you must still pile in and consolidate towards them - remember, that's 6 extra inches of movement if you don't touch their bases!), and they can still attack you - but you're guaranteed to not accidentally kill the model that you're trying to pin.
- Countering: Again, make sure your units can't be pinned. If there's a lot of space between your units, your opponent will have to lose a lot of potential attacks in order to maintain squad coherency to spread out so far between units. This is also where having a nearby character that can Heroically Intervene is especially useful to help scare off these types of assaults.
#3 - Activate units that charged, even if they don't have anyone to fight.
- Requirements: A unit that charged that hasn't fought yet (or, spend the 3CP stratagem to "fight again"), but that already has the target of their charge slain.
- Action: Activate the unit. Use your pile in and consolidate moves to get closer to somewhere better. You get 3" pile in, and 3" consolidate. Try to pin or tag another unit like this, grab an objective, or get into cover. Sometimes you might do it just to put another unit in front of a character you put somewhere vulnerable, so now the character can't be targeted by shooting.
- Result: Almost as good as gaining an additional movement phase. Never hurts to play like old school Ynnari!
- Countering: Keep your units far enough away from each other so they don't walk into you afterwards.
#4 - Charges are extra movement.
- Requirements: A large unit of models that will likely make a charge.
- Action: When you charge the unit, you only need to successfully reach at least one model in at least one unit that you declared a charge against, and keep squad coherency. So take advantage of that! Chain up your models so that while, sure, some models get in range to attack an enemy target, the rest might choose to head in the LITERALLY EXACT OPPOSITE DIRECTION.
Result: Just out of range of an objective with a big squad, but there's an enemy nearby behind you? Don't advance! Charge those suckers after moving! Now the back end of the squad charges towards the objective, and you grab it!
- Countering: Keep a character near where your opponent wants to go so you can heroically intervene if they get too close. Use this to bully your opponent away from zones.
#5 - Heroic Intervention for Bullies.
- Requirements: A unit and a character.
- Action: Put your character behind a model that's the closest one to your opponent's unit.
- Result: If your opponent declares a charge and doesn't roll high enough, they will either have to end their charge within 3" of the character and trigger Heroic Intervention, or they will have to give up their charge.
- Countering: Declare the opponent's character as part of the charge, and end your charge at the edge of the 1" of the target unit. If they want to heroically intervene, they'll have to bring their character closer to you and out of position, and you'll be able to threaten attacks against them too. If you roll high enough just circle around the front and end your charge on a unit's flank outside 3" of the opposing character.
#6 - Charge around corners.
- Requirements: A unit that wants to charge, and a big LoS blocking terrain piece.
- Action: Move your unit such that it is not visible to the unit you want to declare a charge against. You can still declare charges against units that you can't see.
- Result: You won't suffer Overwatch. Great for avoiding auto-hit shooting if your opponent puts their units in the wrong spots. You can even use this to go for extremely difficult charges (10-12" away) just to see if you get there with no real risk, though in this case, always consider advancing if you can instead.
- Countering: Keep your auto-hitting units in locations where potential chargers will have to end within LoS of you before they charge for a safe charge.
#7 - Don't shoot units that you intend to charge.
- Requirements: A unit that you want to charge with, and other shooters within shooting range of that target.
- Action: DON'T shoot that unit! Shoot something else!
- Result: You want to avoid your opponent choosing models that are closer to you. If they kill those models, it increases your charge range, and makes it less likely to get in there.
- Countering: Not much. If the unit that they wish to charge is badly placed, that might trick your opponent into making this mistake, but it sounds like a lose-lose proposition to intentionally put such a unit in that position in the first place.
I think that's most of the big ones. If anyone else has some good tips, let this guy know!
@Yarium - great post, Kunnin' moves, Brutal intent. Love it.
@General Malarky - I feel your pain. Sounds like my Index games :-) Please, don't spend any more money. It's easier to play your way out of a hole than buy your way-out.
Probably echoing previous posts, but try not to play to your opponents game.
1, Play lower points levels. You can Battalion for around 200pts, leaving 300pts for toys in a 500pt game. Other factions will struggle to keep up with your CP at 500pts, and have fewer points for toys.
2, Terrain. Try to play the "lowest level of terrain always blocks LOS" rule. If they can't see you, they can't shoot you.
3, Kulture. Not Goff. At least go Snakebite and give yourself a 6+++ Save.
4, Index. Big Guns are easy to scratch build, and an instant source of shooty attacks. Also gives your spare Grots something to do other than Die Heroically :-)
5, Missions. Check out the Orc Codex for the faction specific Tactical Objectives. They may suit your play style better.
6, Dice. It never hurts to roll 6's (if you are making Ld rolls, you don't have enough Orks ;-0)
Good luck with your future games, and remember - Orks never lose.
General Malarky wrote: Sorry, I must have forgotten to include the Kulturs; I run Goff. Does not make sense for a foot-slogging force to be Evil Sunz beyond gaming the rules. I have tried using the Evil Sunz Kultur and was underwhelmed. The additional movement is nothing but lip-service with only 3 extra inches of movement IF you manage to also charge that turn.
Well if you take inoptimal choices don't be surprised you get beaten. You have no lootas, no mek guns, no souped up shock attack gun but do have big mek in mega armour and top of that take inefficient clan culture. Boyz that are going to be used to deep strike are evil sun. Period.
8th ed is hardly balanced so if you take weak options you'll get massacred.
Also do you 3-point at all? Pretty much mandatory for orks to capture somebody as prisoners to prevent fall back.
I'm gonna be super blunt: You are blaming the edition for your losses when you have a list that would be horrendous in pretty much any edition of the game I've played. And i've played 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th.
Honestly your list (with Evil Sunz kultur) would be best in 8th, because a da jump charge with your 30x boyz might catch someone by surprise.
You say you have no motivation to paint anything but big models and vehicles....why aren't you using any? What possible madness could have convinced you that your only option is to bring a weird jumble of unsupported crap with multiple glaring obvious weakpoints that pretty much any opponent could instantly pick out?
Hmm maybe I should shoot that one, singuler trukk filled with expensive models.
Hmm I have tanks maybe I should kill the tankbustas standing in the open and walking at me.
If you want a green tide list to actually work, you need to present your opponent with nothing but bodies, and if any target is significantly more expensive (say, a big unit of lootas or tankbustas) you need to be prepared to Grot Screen that unit so you need to make sure it's one unit only. Everything in your opponent's army should be pumping into just boyz, preferably boyz with a 5++ and 6+ feel no pain.
But you obviously don't care for a green tide list. So screw it. Run a vehicle focused list then - but then make sure your units are all fast enough to get across the table and hit turn 2 along with your deep strikers.
My ork list typically runs along those lines. What you'll see is:
Evil Sunz brigade with a couple units of 30x boyz, one of which tellyporta deep strikes, one of which hides way in the back behind terrain and gets Da Jumped turn 1, then fill the rest with units of 10x gretchins. Warboss on bike with killa klaw, deffkilla wartrike, and my primary mounted killing units are Nobz with double regular choppas mounted up in trukks and Bonebreakas. Any time I want to bring something slow, like deff dreads, meganobz or a gorkanaut, it goes in the Tellyporta - EVERYTHING is going to hit turn 2, no exceptions, and ideally the Da Jump boyz make up most of the casualties turn 1.
Second detachment is a battalion of Blood Axes (just for Finkin' Kap and the Command Point regeneration trait) with KFF big Mek and weirdboy with da jump, troops are just more 10x gretchin squads. Orks have amazing stratagems and amazingly cheap units in every slot, there is no reason not to maximise your command points.
The Evil Sunz trait is not about moving across the board (though it does help get your transports in range for the turn 2 punch) it's about charging from deep strike range. It takes your chances from approximately 58% to 79% just having that +1 to charge.
Can I use Tellyporta more than once? I thought there were restrictions on using the sqme strategem multiple times in a phase?
I am going to avoid 2000 points battles because they stretch me too "thin" and smaller battles will allow me to take only Boyz and Gretchin, achieving that green tide effect.
If I buy anything more, it will be another "getting started with Orks" kit, for the dread and painboy. I have already spent over $1000 on this hot-mess and I should not have spent so much. Feels so good knowing I have wasted so much money.
Why take snakebite if I have Painboyz? Why are Goffs even a thing?
What is "3-point"?
I am such a .stupid feth-stain, thinking table top games that have been aeound for decades might have figured out how to do their jobs.
I do not know which of you to listen to and which of you are just donkey-caves.
As always; I am wasting everyone's time and subjecting more and more people to my horsegak problems. Stupid feth.
Tellyporta is used outside of the phase progression, so you *can* use it more than once.
Goffs are a thing because they *can* be useful. Ghaz, Mad Dok, and Skar Boyz are useful, and exploding 6s in CC can make your Dreadz and Naughts hit a lot harder. But they need to be played more carefully than Evil Sunz or Death Skullz. You absolutely need to have enough LOS blocking terrain to be able to get your units into CC without getting slaughtered.
Snakebitez can allow you to skip the Painboyz (and the have the Monster Hunter Stratagem, which is pretty decent), but I agree. I'm not a fan of that Kultur myself.
Just remember that 40k is a strategy game. If you leave your units wide-open and charge mindlessly at your foe, you'll always lose. My suggestion is to keep asking these questions and to keep practicing.
3-point is the method of placing your models around an enemy model, in order to prevent it from escaping CC and protecting your unit from shooting-phase firing (as units cannot fire into CC).
Feels so good knowing I have wasted so much money.
From personal expiriance, I would say one can only blame oneself for not being smart enough.
Orks are a high cost army, and unlike IG or pre Inari nerf eldar, seem to have very specific unit set ups, which aren't limited to units themselfs, but detachments and kultures you have to use with those units. From what people say around here, they also seem to be sometimes very unforgiving in some match ups. But I do wish you good luck.
In a casual environment I don't thing the Clan he picks is as much of an issue as the miscalculation of equipment.
I was trying to come up with a useful post last night but gave up.
If it were me I would start with dropping the bigshootas frm the boys mobs and possibly 10 grots from one of his 20 strong grot mobs and the war bikers and see what kind of points that give back.
The lack of meaning fun shooting is definitely an issue.
I could go either way on the deff dread. Personally I wouldn't take less than 2 and keep them moving and working together so they can bully something and keep going.
I prefer a 2 or 3 to 1 advantage every time.
As pointed out Mek guns of some kind and maybe Lootas, failing those possibly a Dakka Jet or something like that. Make it dedicated to it's job and give it a simple task.
I did wonderfully well with Burna Bombas and Blitza Bombas last October, the last time I played Orks.
But the Key to most things Ork is you need loads of them, one unit or single model unit will get killed and do very little for you.
Also, you may want to find a way to add 1 or 2 more trukks or failing that a Battle Wagon transport. The list posted has several units that really need to be transported to allow them to live long enough to do anything.
I was planning to play goffs as well just because it's the closest to my last playstyle from the index and requires the least amount of remembering extra shtuff. However a long term goal does involve stacking my list with 2 or 3 clans for a more competitive opponent.
You may want to try playing other missions even Maelstrom of war missions can be a balance against armies that would otherwise auto trash your own.
Good luck !
Edit.
Don't beat yourself up over a messily 1000 bucks.
If I had been smart I would only have owned just 1 army every edition and I started played in 2nd. So 7 armies over 20+ years.
Heck I literally bought an army so one of out power gamers couldn't. (3rd edition Necrons.) I did this because I'm dumb. : And that guy sucks and so on. If your brand new then you have a huge leg up on me. Remember that there is a second hand market so should you part with your Orks you may find an even trade or at least get some of your money back.
One other thing about list building. After a few games look at your units and what they have in them, big shootas, power Klaws or what ever and ask yourself do I even get to use those items or when was the last time those items even contributed to anything. If they haven't or hardly do then trim them out and refund yourself those points toward something else. For example I have been a big fan of Big Shootas for a long time but last edition I found they no longer had a place in my Sluggga Boys mobs. My Boys were either running or stuck in or dead. I don't even bother with rokkits in those mobs when Tank bustas are just better or there is another platform that can better fill that job. I do like twin Bigshoota war trakks but that's not a unit I use very often anymore.
You may also want to start doing some kind of battle reports for yourself to see if there are any things you continue to do that just aren't working and see where you are doing things right.... and also for the entertainment value.
General Malarky wrote: I have a Weirdboy and use Tellyporta in every match and I still find myself facing the opponent's relatively fresh gunline (I maybe inflicted a couple wounds, while moving to melee) with my Orks who have been shot to oblivion. Even Da Jumping units, or flanking or tellyporta, opponents just Fall Back and erase the unit that charged them with their gunline. Even Unstoppable Green Tide has been quite underwhelming.
"You bring your 2000 points of Marines and I will bring 500 points of Orks, if I can set up on your forces. We can skip the first two or three turns, this way." This is how games feel. Then again, I am such a fatalist that I do not feel it is even worth setting up the army because of the effort involved with setting up and removing a hundred or so minis. It takes for ever and is a waste of time. I have to buy how many of units of boys and gretchin WITH THE EXPECTATION OF THEM DOING NOTHING BUT EATING WOUNDS? I feel pretty ripped off. YEs, I am aware it is a horde.army, I was not aware that melee is such a gak-show waste of time. I have ZERO motivation to paint anything but characters and vehicles, which makes me feel like a.piece of gak when someone shows up with a beautifully painted army.
Having to rely upon bypassing movement in order to have a shot at getting a unit in range to charge is a glaring sign that the system is flawed.
"The game feels tailored for shooting armies and punishes melee ones."
I almost want to charge people to play against me. If I am going to lose and they are going to have a great time scoring all the wounds and I am stuck feeling like an impotent pile of gak loser, why can I not get something for my time?
Bugger...
I will echo some other posters and suggest adding Lootas and some Traktor Kannons. Lootas screened by Grots can devastate a gunline themselves, and at a minimum can draw fire away from your Boyz. Traktor Kannons offer an answer against Flyers. So basically what the first response said - More Dakka!
the_scotsman wrote: I'm gonna be super blunt: You are blaming the edition for your losses when you have a list that would be horrendous in pretty much any edition of the game I've played. And i've played 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th.
Honestly your list (with Evil Sunz kultur) would be best in 8th, because a da jump charge with your 30x boyz might catch someone by surprise..
Uuh hopefully you have better reason for claiming list would be best in 8th ed than opponent might be surprised.that trick is old as 8th ed so only new players will be surprised. Basing plan on opponent being surprised by staple of orks whole 8th ed is risky
The problem as I see it in your list is you have a very mixed bag of units. it is green tide... but the beuty of a true green tide is being deceptively fast with the jump and such, and it completely negates any points your opponent put into anti tank units. having mega nobz, biggies and a deffdred you are giving up a lot of ork bodies to have a hard targets that will just be blasted away.
Your list imo should drop meganobz, bikers, traxx trukk and megaarmor big mek w/kff and even the tank bustas as your one trukk is DOA and tank bustas are a high profile target.
suggested addins. more boyz, some mek guns kustom mega kannons to deal with thier good anti infantry tanks (if they have them) 3 at 60 points each should be about right at 180 points for 3. I woudl replace big mek in mega armor for a SSAG big mek back with the mek gunz, then bubblewrap the mek guns and SSAG with your gretchin
I would also consider changing painboy to painboy on a bike and warboss to index warboss on a bike so they can for sure keep up and adding 1T and 1W
Alternatively, if you want to surprise your opponent, take more armor (Gork, Mork, Mekadread, DeffDread, etc.) And drop the Boyz and other infantry (except for Grots, you need those for CP, and the SSAG and Weirdboyz, for HQ slots). You'd be surprised by how many people hear you say "I'm playing Orkz" and assume you'll be bringing primarily infantry. Or maybe you won't be.
But yeah. What Goofy described is what I call "theming". The current meta favors having both AT and Anti-Infantry attack options, but sticking to either one or the other for survivability. Most lists will be about 50/50 on the AT and Anti-Infantry front, but closer to 80-90% of the list will be either Armor or Infantry. When you make a list that's "well-rounded", you're giving your opponent prime targets for all of their attacks, rather than only about half of them.
Finishing first deploying units has nothing to do with going first or second. Are you using the most updated rules?
.
Oh. They changed it again? Anyone know how it works now??
Mark.
Roll to decide who deploys first.
First player deploys his full army, then the opponent does the same. Yes, he can perform a full counterdeploy, it's intended.
Then the player who finished deploying first (which is the player who deployed first his army, barring some particular deployment special rules), has the first turn.
Roll for Seize as usual.
This way you already know who is going to go first and who is going second while deploying, which limits the impact of alpha strikes a lot.
The games that get decided on turn 1 are those were 2 players deploy offensively hoping for fist turn, and the losing players gets decimated.
Between counterdeploy, knowing in advance who will go first, the constant threat of a seize and the Prepared Position stratagem, the alpha strike is now much less of a problem.
It should also be noted that in the new missions you never score at the end of your turn (so jumping on an objective is useless). You either score at the start of your next turn or at the end of the round, giving yet another advantage to the player going second.
Note: This is valid only for CA18 missions. ITC and previous 40K mission packets follow the old system.
flandarz wrote: Alternatively, if you want to surprise your opponent, take more armor (Gork, Mork, Mekadread, DeffDread, etc.) And drop the Boyz and other infantry (except for Grots, you need those for CP, and the SSAG and Weirdboyz, for HQ slots). You'd be surprised by how many people hear you say "I'm playing Orkz" and assume you'll be bringing primarily infantry. Or maybe you won't be.
But yeah. What Goofy described is what I call "theming". The current meta favors having both AT and Anti-Infantry attack options, but sticking to either one or the other for survivability. Most lists will be about 50/50 on the AT and Anti-Infantry front, but closer to 80-90% of the list will be either Armor or Infantry. When you make a list that's "well-rounded", you're giving your opponent prime targets for all of their attacks, rather than only about half of them.
yea, I just suggested the simplest with his models, but themed lists all the way, orks do pay more than a lot of armies for what we get when you math it out. but we get so much of it that it kinds balances it out when saturating.
Honestly, I feel your pain. I always want to bring a nice list with a bunch of boyz and nobz, but this is the shootiest edition in a long line of shooty editions. And as you noted, falling back is the most broken mechanic to ever be introduced into 40k, at least in my experience.
Some thoughts from me:
I really like tankbustas, but like lootas, they struggle with durability. If you haven't been, definitely reserve CP for grot shield for them, and also get a full squad if you can.
I also am not a fan of rokkit pistols - too short range, less strong, and the ability to use them in CC is garbage as tanksbustas must ALWAYS avoid CC.
Drop the warbuggies and warbikers. They're just bad. Some of the new buggies are good - the scrapjet and dragsta especially shine.
Why do you have 20 strong grot units? Maybe one for a little extra durability for grot shield - other than that take min squads for objective grabbing.
I love deff dreads, even though they are not the best unit. Though, a unit of 3 tellyporting in is surprisingly effective.
In truth, your list isn't a bad one, though it isn't terribly competitive. It's a very fluffy list. Are you playing similarly minded players, or are they min/maxxing guard/knight armies or guilliman + assback spams or dark eldar or whatnot?
Like, the best way I can put this is your list is like bringing a terminator-heavy space marine army. It's iconic, and fluffy, but not very good. And that's not a bad thing provided your opponents are also bringing fluffy lists.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm gonna be super blunt: You are blaming the edition for your losses when you have a list that would be horrendous in pretty much any edition of the game I've played. And i've played 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th.
Honestly your list (with Evil Sunz kultur) would be best in 8th, because a da jump charge with your 30x boyz might catch someone by surprise..
Uuh hopefully you have better reason for claiming list would be best in 8th ed than opponent might be surprised.that trick is old as 8th ed so only new players will be surprised. Basing plan on opponent being surprised by staple of orks whole 8th ed is risky
My overall point is: A list that tries to do a green tide, but also has a small contingent of walkers, but also has a small contingent of fast moving anti-infantry shooters, but also has footslogging models with the same defensive profile as ork boyz, but also has 1 or 2 unsupported vehicle targets, is going to be fighting an uphill battle in any edition.
I'm not trying to make a value judgement about this person or how smart/dumb/whatever they are, they're doing that and I think it speaks to them being in a somewhat low emotional state at the moment. If you're calling yourself a big dumb stupidhead who can't learn anything you're not in a mental place to figure out how to fix what you're doing wrong.
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General Malarky wrote: Can I use Tellyporta more than once? I thought there were restrictions on using the sqme strategem multiple times in a phase?
I am going to avoid 2000 points battles because they stretch me too "thin" and smaller battles will allow me to take only Boyz and Gretchin, achieving that green tide effect.
If I buy anything more, it will be another "getting started with Orks" kit, for the dread and painboy. I have already spent over $1000 on this hot-mess and I should not have spent so much. Feels so good knowing I have wasted so much money.
Why take snakebite if I have Painboyz? Why are Goffs even a thing?
What is "3-point"?
I am such a .stupid feth-stain, thinking table top games that have been aeound for decades might have figured out how to do their jobs.
I do not know which of you to listen to and which of you are just donkey-caves.
As always; I am wasting everyone's time and subjecting more and more people to my horsegak problems. Stupid feth.
Don't make any other purchases until you know which direction you actually want to take your army.
Right now you have a list that seems to mostly go towards a green tide, but you seem to hate the playstyle of waiting around for your models to get over to your opponent while you take it on the chin.
That's what playing orks as a pure horde army is - other than lobbing your biggest unit of ork boyz at your opponent's forces each turn with Da Jump and hopefully Warpath on them, anyway.
If you hate that, don't listen to the internet hivemind - there are more than one way to play orks.
People act like the internet instantly figures out everything and tournament players just go to the top tables based on whatever magical algorithm the wisdom of the interwebz came up with .0003 seconds after the rules for the models are leaked.
When the codex was released, "everyone knew" that nobody would take an ork boy again, boyz would only ever be useful for flinging one 30-blob in the oppoonets face turn 1, green tide got its knees knocked off by nerfhammers, everyone would spam trakktor kannons and they were the most OP things ever.
Oh wait, tournament results have people bringing Loota Bombs? Ok, loota bombs are the only way to play orks, they're a gatekeeper mid-tier army at best, mono-build only the loota bomb is useful, no other builds exist, PERIOD. The internet has FIGURED IT OUT.
Oh wait, tournament results have a variety of different builds? Green Tide lists, Deffskullz lists, and Bad Moonz lists are succeeding?
My point is, people hyperfocus on whatever top-tier tournament build is performing right now, and act like unless they copy exactly that they can't succeed and any time they lose or have different models than the competitive build, they're doomed.
That's just not true. Most people (it sounds like you included) play WAYYYYYYYYYYYY more casually than actual competitive tournaments, and most of the time (from your list, you included) extremely glaring errors in both list build and tactics that can be improved and they're not actually hopeless, it just feels better to have something to blame your losses on.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Strategically: Your list lacks a focus, and lacking a focus means introducing a weakness. If I take a standard list against yours, I have extremely effective targets to shoot all my weapons at, right off the bat. I have 2W models to shoot autocannons/plasma guns/whatever to insta-kill them, I have vehicle models to shoot lascannons at, and I have light infantry to shoot lasguns/whatever at.
On top of that, you've got a bunch of stuff that moves different speeds. If I just stood there and let you attack me, the boyz with da jump get there turn 1, the nobz with the trukk arrive turn 2, and the footsloggers don't get to attack until turn 3 or 4 (deff dread, other boyz squad, meganobz). That means I instantly also know what's the most important targets to handle, if say I go first before you (Kill the boyz, kill the trukk).
You also have several units (Trakks, gretchin) that I know I don't have to target at all because they don't contribute to the melee lockdown that your army wants to do.
Tactically: You CAN have elements that are mixed in your list but you should use tabletop tactics to lessen that as much as possible. For example, let's look at your Meganobz and Deff Dread/Dreads. These two units will never hit at the same time as your trukk nobz because they'll be walking much slower. So we can instead use Tellyporta to make sure they're making a charge roll turn 2, and make sure my opponent's lascannons/plasma/whatever have one less good target turn 1.
Three pointing is a method that can be used to prevent models from falling back. After making a charge move you get to make two 3" moves before, and after attacking. If you get three of your models surrounding one of your opponent's models, because of how circles work geometrically you've stopped that one model from getting out from in between your models.
That means unless they have fly, they cannot Fall Back.
Yarium wrote: There is a lot - I repeat a LOT - of depth to close combat. It's really tricky to get right, and requires some tricky tactics, an awareness of the game state and objectives, and knowing where you want to be. Here's some fantastic tricks:
THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE OF CLOSE COMBAT:
"With rare exception, never put your models in base to base contact with the enemy."
The reason for this is that so long as your models aren't in base to base contact, you can use the rules to gain extra movement for your models by ensuring they end closer to your opponent's models than before, even if that move takes them on a merry-go-round path closer, meaning that in actuality you gained almost all that extra distance just by piling in and consolidating. Most of the tricky tactics listed below will require this extra movement. The only time you DO want to be in base to base contact with the enemy is to deny your opponent the chance to do the exact same thing.
#1 - "Pinning" units;
- Requirements; an enemy model can be surrounded on 3 sides after you're done your attacks.
- Action: When you're done making your attacks, if you have 3 models that can surround an enemy model on three sides (forming an equilateral triangle), you can "pin" your opponent's model there. That model can now not leave combat, because any move they take would be through your models, which they're not allowed to do (unless they can jump over them with Fly or the like).
- Result: Your super powered close combat unit now is 100% safe from shooting. So long as you kill your opponent's unit in their turn, you're just laughing.
- Countering: If you keep your models close enough together such that enemy models can't surround them, then any path that is as big as at least one of your models can allow the whole unit to escape. Generally you need a line of models that are 2 ranks deep. A very savvy general can try to purposefully fail their morale test by enough so that they can remove the pinned models from the unit in order to escape.
#2 - Pile into units that you won't be fighting.
- Requirements: A second nearby enemy unit, and enough models that you will be able to maintain squad coherency.
- Action: When declaring the targets of a charge, purposefully don't declare a second unit as your target, but send models towards them anyways. Your intention at the very least should be to "tag" the unit such that the unit won't be able to shoot when they leave combat, whilst you take minimal retaliatory attacks, but it's amazing when you can achieve Tactic #1 and pin that unit. Since you didn't declare them as a charge, you can't attack them (though you must still pile in and consolidate towards them - remember, that's 6 extra inches of movement if you don't touch their bases!), and they can still attack you - but you're guaranteed to not accidentally kill the model that you're trying to pin.
- Countering: Again, make sure your units can't be pinned. If there's a lot of space between your units, your opponent will have to lose a lot of potential attacks in order to maintain squad coherency to spread out so far between units. This is also where having a nearby character that can Heroically Intervene is especially useful to help scare off these types of assaults.
#3 - Activate units that charged, even if they don't have anyone to fight.
- Requirements: A unit that charged that hasn't fought yet (or, spend the 3CP stratagem to "fight again"), but that already has the target of their charge slain.
- Action: Activate the unit. Use your pile in and consolidate moves to get closer to somewhere better. You get 3" pile in, and 3" consolidate. Try to pin or tag another unit like this, grab an objective, or get into cover. Sometimes you might do it just to put another unit in front of a character you put somewhere vulnerable, so now the character can't be targeted by shooting.
- Result: Almost as good as gaining an additional movement phase. Never hurts to play like old school Ynnari!
- Countering: Keep your units far enough away from each other so they don't walk into you afterwards.
#4 - Charges are extra movement.
- Requirements: A large unit of models that will likely make a charge.
- Action: When you charge the unit, you only need to successfully reach at least one model in at least one unit that you declared a charge against, and keep squad coherency. So take advantage of that! Chain up your models so that while, sure, some models get in range to attack an enemy target, the rest might choose to head in the LITERALLY EXACT OPPOSITE DIRECTION.
Result: Just out of range of an objective with a big squad, but there's an enemy nearby behind you? Don't advance! Charge those suckers after moving! Now the back end of the squad charges towards the objective, and you grab it!
- Countering: Keep a character near where your opponent wants to go so you can heroically intervene if they get too close. Use this to bully your opponent away from zones.
#5 - Heroic Intervention for Bullies.
- Requirements: A unit and a character.
- Action: Put your character behind a model that's the closest one to your opponent's unit.
- Result: If your opponent declares a charge and doesn't roll high enough, they will either have to end their charge within 3" of the character and trigger Heroic Intervention, or they will have to give up their charge.
- Countering: Declare the opponent's character as part of the charge, and end your charge at the edge of the 1" of the target unit. If they want to heroically intervene, they'll have to bring their character closer to you and out of position, and you'll be able to threaten attacks against them too. If you roll high enough just circle around the front and end your charge on a unit's flank outside 3" of the opposing character.
#6 - Charge around corners.
- Requirements: A unit that wants to charge, and a big LoS blocking terrain piece.
- Action: Move your unit such that it is not visible to the unit you want to declare a charge against. You can still declare charges against units that you can't see.
- Result: You won't suffer Overwatch. Great for avoiding auto-hit shooting if your opponent puts their units in the wrong spots. You can even use this to go for extremely difficult charges (10-12" away) just to see if you get there with no real risk, though in this case, always consider advancing if you can instead.
- Countering: Keep your auto-hitting units in locations where potential chargers will have to end within LoS of you before they charge for a safe charge.
#7 - Don't shoot units that you intend to charge.
- Requirements: A unit that you want to charge with, and other shooters within shooting range of that target.
- Action: DON'T shoot that unit! Shoot something else!
- Result: You want to avoid your opponent choosing models that are closer to you. If they kill those models, it increases your charge range, and makes it less likely to get in there.
- Countering: Not much. If the unit that they wish to charge is badly placed, that might trick your opponent into making this mistake, but it sounds like a lose-lose proposition to intentionally put such a unit in that position in the first place.
I think that's most of the big ones. If anyone else has some good tips, let this guy know!
God damn. I'm going to have to re-familiarize myself with how most of these scenarios are possible.
morganfreeman wrote: God damn. I'm going to have to re-familiarize myself with how most of these scenarios are possible.
Thankfully, these are all extremely easy to understand! The crux of it is that piling in and consolidating only happen for units that can fight, and units that can fight need to only check one of the following two requirements:
i - The unit successfully charged.
ii - The unit is within 1" of an enemy unit.
That's it. You fulfill either of those requirements, and you can activate during the Fight phase. When you activate, you get to pile in, and at the end of the activation, you consolidate. Everything else is just logically applying the rules, and you're honestly not even stretching, twisting, or lawyering the rules to do these things. #1 happens because, without Fly, you can't move through models, even during Fall Back. So you just set it up that the person can't break the rules to do the thing they would normally want to do. #2 happens because, well, that's what the rules say to do when you reach a unit that you didn't declare a charge against. Of course, both #1 and #2 matter for nothing if the target has Fly or is something like a Knight that you surrounded with Infantry that you can just walk over (although, it's neat to remember that they can't walk over Bikes! Go Atalans!) #3 is literally what you do with a unit that charged, so just, you know, do that, but smartly. #4 is realizing that the rules don't say what you THINK they say; and mostly players that don't get this are ones that played older editions where ALL the models had to charge forward. Even then, there were "chains" that existed, especially with Tyranids and Synapse (who remembers Hormagaunt leashes?). #5, #6, and #7 are again, just applying rules that people tend to forget exist. Heroic Intervention rarely actually triggers, but still has a major effect because of the THREAT of its ability to trigger. You don't always have a chance to charge around a corner, especially because good players don't put themselves into that situation. Players sometimes also forget that models take up physical space, and so by removing models, you're opening up space (#7).
It really does come down to list building for the Orks. You cannot take whatever you want and expect to do well. But you can build around multiple focus points for what you want to do.
Your list for instance has 1 deff dread. Those 8 wounds are easily removed. But if you swapped units so that you could take 3 and put them in the tellyporta then they are likely to make combat. Additionally you could try taking shoota boys and out shooting your opponents gunlines. I have had some success using a gorkanaut and shoota boys to counter horde lists. Double shooting (special detachment) with More Dakka really helps wipe large units. 36 shots from the main gun, 24 shots from twin big shootas, 4 rokkits, 2d6 scorcha shots.
I dont play orks, but if i would, i would go with 9 smasha guns, its 31 pts for one. I find them hilariously undercosted for what they do. Its 48" range, D3 shots, hitting on 4s, wounding if 2D6 is equal or higher than toughness, AP-4 and D6 damage. Run them as deathskulls, and you get one re-roll to hit, and one re-roll to damage, for every gun. Thats 18 re-rolls, for free
p5freak wrote: I dont play orks, but if i would, i would go with 9 smasha guns, its 31 pts for one. I find them hilariously undercosted for what they do. Its 48" range, D3 shots, hitting on 4s, wounding if 2D6 is equal or higher than toughness, AP-4 and D6 damage. Run them as deathskulls, and you get one re-roll to hit, and one re-roll to damage, for every gun. Thats 18 re-rolls, for free
They are hilariously OP. They don't get army traits. They do get Dakka Dakka though.
If anyone is struggling with orks I'd just say you are wasting points on bad units or are playing the army fundamentally wrong at this point. Orks are top tier.
They are hilariously OP. They don't get army traits. They do get Dakka Dakka though.
Oh, sorry, i thought they would get a clan kultur.
They have the gretchen keyword so they don't get kultur.
But Additionally for a player who is already complaining about the cost of Orks. Smashas are not the way to go. US $46.00 for 1. or $414.00 unless you kitbash.
flandarz wrote: With the prices GW puts out for some of these units, it's starting to feel like they DON'T want you to buy their models.
They WANT you to buy them at that price and like it.
Mek gunz one of the worst price to unit cost ratio. $46 for 31 pts. gross. Honestly they should come in a box of max unit size. and apply a 25% discount. 172.5 for 5 mek gunz. bundle and save kind of deal. I would have bought it right away. I think I bought 1. got gifted 1 then kitbashed my 3rd.
Man, I just did a quick look on Amazon, and it was kinda ridiculous. Like, I can buy fully articulated action figures for the price per model they're asking. And I don't have to paint those. Probably cheaper, in the long run, to just get a 3D printer and make your own. Especially with Factions like Orkz which are, by necessity, model heavy.
They are hilariously OP. They don't get army traits. They do get Dakka Dakka though.
Oh, sorry, i thought they would get a clan kultur.
They have the gretchen keyword so they don't get kultur.
But Additionally for a player who is already complaining about the cost of Orks. Smashas are not the way to go. US $46.00 for 1. or $414.00 unless you kitbash.
Yeah. Why anyone not playing in an environment that demands only GW/current GW pieces would ever spend $ on more than maybe 1 gun baffles me. (unless their excuse is "I really LIKE the model. In that case....) You're playing orks. So build like an ork - grab a basket of random junk & parts and make your own gunz.
flandarz wrote: Yeah, it looks like you're focused on CC presence to the exclusion of any sort of ranged ability. This can work if the map you play on has enough LOS-blocking terrain, but since you said you're getting shot to oblivion in Turn 1, I'm guessing there's not a lot of places to hide for you. With so little good ranged options, you're gonna suffer. In fact, against a list with a large Flyer population, you're pretty much guaranteed a loss. You're gonna want more ranged units.
Alternatively, consider pushing more into a "greentide" list. Your three units of Boyz can and will be massacred, but 150-180 Boyz will probably be too much for your opponent to effectively deal with. You definitely need a Kultur for your detachments are well. For CC focused, I'd recommend Evil Sunz, for more reliable charges.
There's not a lot of places to hide 90 Orks, period.
Anyway, you might need to learn how to take units hostage, That will help you out. Basically, after the enemy removes casualties, conduct your consolidate such that there is one enemy model surrounded by your models [he can't fall back through them]. You have tons of boyz, and should have tons left over after your first fight phase. A key trick to this is not to touch the opponent directly during your charge and pile in, so that your consolidate ends closer to the enemy model. Make sure that unit doesn't rout [so take many prisoners, or take something of value or something that can't rout prisoner], and your unit is untouchable to shooting.
In addition, you should be using your pile in and consolidate to just poke as many units as you feel comfortable being attacked by [for example, a Leman Russ or Dreadnought probably won't be a serious threat to you in melee, but a squad of Death Company might want to be avoided], so that those units won't be able to charge or shoot on their turn.
As a final note, going all-in on Melee or all-in on Shooting isn't super great. At some point, there's diminising returns. Orks have really good shooting units too, take some of them.
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General Malarky wrote:fething HELL!?!? IS THE RULEBOOK NOT feth! fething!
So now I have not even bought the right books... feth me, eh?
Spoletta wrote:
General Malarky wrote: We normally just roll for Eternal War missions. Simple and casual.
Which eternal war missions? The ones from the rulebook? Because those are famous for being hugely stacked against melee armies.
Not really; but they are stacked against armies not designed to kills the s*** out of the enemy.
Melee works fine in them, and it's actually pretty good; even if you're not a force reknown for it's melee units.
However, it's less stacked for aggressive melee armies than other missions, since there's no bonus for early center occupation. This edition has massively increased the general power of close combat; specifically fast skirmishers and light high-volume-of-attacks troops [like boyz]; though heavy melee really sucks.
tractor gunz + lootas would give you decent firepower.
But more boys... there just isn't enough dice to deal with all the boys at certain point.
Also, are you playing the same guy every time?
Also, as mentioned CA 2018 missions are good as you can play the mission swamp objectives and win that way. .
Also, watch some bat reps for inspiration?
They are hilariously OP. They don't get army traits. They do get Dakka Dakka though.
Oh, sorry, i thought they would get a clan kultur.
They have the gretchen keyword so they don't get kultur.
But Additionally for a player who is already complaining about the cost of Orks. Smashas are not the way to go. US $46.00 for 1. or $414.00 unless you kitbash.
well sure, but on the other hand you get a ton of extra gun bits when you buy ork kits that are about the right size. Deff Dreads, Battlewagons, Gork/Morkanauts etc and you just take those and make up some cannon looking jiggers and say "here's my smasha guns".
from a gameplay perspective I do find smashas to be overhyped by the internet hivemind, probably because their damage output and usefulness can be expressed by pure hypothetical math. On the tabletop they do good damage but typically don't impact the outcome of the game very much in most missions.
tractor gunz + lootas would give you decent firepower.
But more boys... there just isn't enough dice to deal with all the boys at certain point.
Also, are you playing the same guy every time?
Also, as mentioned CA 2018 missions are good as you can play the mission swamp objectives and win that way. .
Also, watch some bat reps for inspiration?
lootas have been nerfed significantly from launch. they use to be great is you pumped a lot of CP into them but now most of what made them good does not apply. they can no longer be mobbed up and their roll for number of shots has to be rerolled when using the stratagem to shoot again. the old way was mob them up for 25 lootas, roll for number of shots, if it is a 1 reroll with cp, then hope for number of shots to be 2 or 3. then you have 50 or 75 loota shots. use dakka dakka dakka so they can always hit on 5's and 6's and 5's and 6's get extra shots. then use strat to shoot that same number of shots a second time.
really what GW should do it make lootas like flamer units and roll a d3 for each member of the unit(alternatively make the gun a heavy 2 gun and that also solves the issue). the problem now is they are too swingy to be competative.
as for the big gunz... yea buy a mek gun kit and a trukk kit and you cna effectively make 4 mek gunz. alternatively it is orks so buy some cheap artilary toy models and roll em around in the bits box to make them orky. alternative alternative do what I have done, buy some various turrets from other armies on ebay to loot, pathfinder drones, thundefire cannons, eldar weapons platforms, heavy weapons teams etc. bonus points to buy old rhinos and other armies vehicles, hacksaw them up and use a soldering iron to have burnt/melted areas and turn them into scrap mek guns.
They are hilariously OP. They don't get army traits. They do get Dakka Dakka though.
Oh, sorry, i thought they would get a clan kultur.
They have the gretchen keyword so they don't get kultur.
But Additionally for a player who is already complaining about the cost of Orks. Smashas are not the way to go. US $46.00 for 1. or $414.00 unless you kitbash.
I'm not sure about this. quote codex "units comprised entirely of gretchin cannot benefit from any clan kultur. in addition, ork stratagems can only be used on these units if the stratagem explicitly states so."
and mek gun has keywords "vehicle, artillery, gretchin, mek gunz.
So mek gun is not " entirely comprised of gretchin" as there is a "vehicle, artillery type" model in the unit.
to conclude: in my opinion, mek gunz do benefit from clan kulturs
You have the read the remainder of the Mek Gun entry. "Grot Krew: Each Mek Gun and its grot krew are treated as a single model for all rules purposes." Which includes the "composed entirely of Gretchin". Because all of these models will share their keywords.
As an aside, I understand that the rule is thematic, but I don't really care for it myself. Were Gretchin units so powerful that you had to deny them access to Kultur and Stratagems? The most powerful combo I could come up with would be a Deathskullz Traktor Gun that gets to reroll wound, and damage. Pretty good, but certainly not broken.
flandarz wrote: As an aside, I understand that the rule is thematic, but I don't really care for it myself. Were Gretchin units so powerful that you had to deny them access to Kultur and Stratagems? The most powerful combo I could come up with would be a Deathskullz Traktor Gun that gets to reroll wound, and damage. Pretty good, but certainly not broken.
If you could get gretchins with 6++/6+FNP traits I don't see why I'd ever take boyz. And mek gunz would be extremely powerful with traits as well. The killa kanz are the only unit I feel aren't really useful.
To be fair, you can already get Gretchin with 5++ and 6+++, if you bring a KFF and Painboy along. But my main argument is: "would Gretchin be TOO powerful with Kultur and Stratagems", and honestly? Probably not. Snakebitez Gretchin will still get massacred by anti-infantry (even if they survive, the Morale phase will take the rest). Mek Gunz will be better, but they're still 3" movement, relatively large units with Heavy Weapons, which will severely limit their utility in any game with decent terrain. I seriously doubt it would even come close to the sorts of lists dominating the competitive scene.
I have a Mekboy Workshop. Can Mekgunz be buffed? They have the 'Vehicle' keyword. What about setting up Mekgunz around that, with a Big Mek with KFF protecting and repairing them? Mekgunz can be repaired, right?
I almost want to post my collection and see what people do with it (expecting the majority to be "you dun goofed, asshat!")
The problem with the Mek Shop is that you're giving up a turn of shooting to get a relatively minor buff. So while you *could* buff a Mek Gun, you're better off just shooting.
General Malarky wrote: I have a Mekboy Workshop. Can Mekgunz be buffed? They have the 'Vehicle' keyword. What about setting up Mekgunz around that, with a Big Mek with KFF protecting and repairing them? Mekgunz can be repaired, right?
I almost want to post my collection and see what people do with it (expecting the majority to be "you dun goofed, asshat!")
postign availabel units is best as it means people can advise on how to mix em and maybe make suggestions on next models to add if you are open to adding to the collections. If you are a long term player there are no "you done goofed up" models as they may not fit or be great this edition, but might be better in later editions. I have several killa kans and deffdreads from the kan wall days in 5th edition. do not regret buying them to use but they have been collecting dust beyond the occational fluff game since then... but one day they might be good again .
General Malarky wrote: I have a Mekboy Workshop. Can Mekgunz be buffed? They have the 'Vehicle' keyword. What about setting up Mekgunz around that, with a Big Mek with KFF protecting and repairing them? Mekgunz can be repaired, right?
I almost want to post my collection and see what people do with it (expecting the majority to be "you dun goofed, asshat!")
Please do! It'd be great to know what you're working with outside the one 2k list.
The Mekboy Workshop sadly is pretty much worth it for nothing in the game. The fact that it requires you to give up basically your whole turn to gain a benefit in the next turn, in a game that's as deadly as 40k means that whatever you buff will just get targeted. I've only ever seen people talking about it with something like a weird forgeworld vehicle full of flamers, where you can hide it for a turn then get double shots with the flamers? But it's pretty much not a thing that you can really make use of.
You can repair Mek Gunz if you want to, and they definitely don't mind a KFF if you're going for a gunline element. Though TBF they're what, T5 with 5 wounds for 31pts? They kind of don't need the help, they're really inefficient to shoot at with almost anything. I have seen people running a Shokk Attack Gun mek next to them but I don't know if the repair action requires you to give up your turn.
Meks' ability to repair is kind of secondary to their real purpose, which is the Kustom Force Field and the Shokk Attack Gun. Both of those are the reason you take Big Meks.With all our vehicles mostly sitting at a 4+ save, if you can get your vehicles under a 5++ save bubble, you've effectively created a situation where any gun with AP greater than -1 is wasting that stat - there's nothing in your army that has a save that can be lowered by more than 1.
General Malarky wrote: I have a Mekboy Workshop. Can Mekgunz be buffed? They have the 'Vehicle' keyword. What about setting up Mekgunz around that, with a Big Mek with KFF protecting and repairing them? Mekgunz can be repaired, right?
I almost want to post my collection and see what people do with it (expecting the majority to be "you dun goofed, asshat!")
postign availabel units is best as it means people can advise on how to mix em and maybe make suggestions on next models to add if you are open to adding to the collections. If you are a long term player there are no "you done goofed up" models as they may not fit or be great this edition, but might be better in later editions. I have several killa kans and deffdreads from the kan wall days in 5th edition. do not regret buying them to use but they have been collecting dust beyond the occational fluff game since then... but one day they might be good again .
Ah, the halycon days of the dred mob... I have so many things converted to be deff dreads because there's just so much potential to orkify other factions' medium mechs. One day medium walkers will once again be able to do their thing, firing a couple of heavy weapons while walking across the field and projecting some melee threat later in the game. Deep striking 3 dreads is not such a terrible idea in the current codex, but they don't really do anything that either a unit of megnobz or a single gorkanaut doesn't do better.
As has been mentioned try not to take dismissive snark on the internet too seriously. Forum 40k tends to focus very much on being as efficient with your list as possible and frankly people can get very nasty about those who do not do so at times. Their problem not yours.
That said there's been some helpful suggestions from Ork players on this thread too and I'd suggest that if possible you give some idea of what sort of armies it is that you are facing for further advice on what you might like to include.
It may be a case of you are playing against highly efficient lists and unfortunately there might not be a solution to that outside of buying more models or playing other people/asking those you do play if they can tone things down.
You've no reason to feel dumb about any of this and hope you can stop beating yourself up, it sounds like you have bought a cool army that you like and that reflects your idea of what an Ork army looks like, it's an unfortunate side affect of GW games that a lot of money often is invested before you get a chance to see how things actually play and many, many people have been there before you.
All is not lost though! There's plenty of folk around who'll happily help you out but a bit more info might be needed to continue to do so.
I will look at it from an opponent's side of things that takes-on an Ork player friend:
- The always hits on a 6 is a underestimated superpower. Anything that involves lots of dice makes this felt all the more "Everything counts in large amounts.".
-Tankbustas in a Battlewagon is truly irritating, those guys have many times erased a vehicle / dreadnaught and the odd elite unit in a pinch. I found them fairly effective as anti-aircraft as well. I think he also stuffs another unit with them in case they get popped and added dakka.
- The bare minimum of 3 blobs of 30 is a must, 4 make it very tough to deal with.
- I find most of the squads of boyz with shootas are the way to go, most melee seems to be overkill. I find the shoota guys seems to get the odd opportunity fire that is a bucket full of dice with 6's "extra" attacks.
- The kustom force field is needed for some resiliency of units using the BigMech
- The BossNob is a must to be able to advance and charge.
- Due to morale, you usually want these characters between two blobs of boyz close enough so they benefit from their numbers in a unit or nearby... it is hard to shift these guys.
- Da Jump is a staple, it forces me to spread out my army to prevent any backyard visitors, what is worth considering is bringing in your infiltrators after a successful jump to have the increased morale.
The various "Kultures" selection I think depends on the armies that give you the most trouble..
flandarz wrote: As an aside, I understand that the rule is thematic, but I don't really care for it myself. Were Gretchin units so powerful that you had to deny them access to Kultur and Stratagems? The most powerful combo I could come up with would be a Deathskullz Traktor Gun that gets to reroll wound, and damage. Pretty good, but certainly not broken.
Im sorry dude but 31 points for a d3 shot d6 weapon with AP -(3 or 4 can't remember) is already not balanced. ESP when it has a special rule that allows 6's to hit to generate additional hits...Come on man. A marine with a lascannon costs more than that. It's a joke of balance.
I dunno. On average, it's gonna get 2 shots and 1 hit. Against T8 targets, you got like a 40% chance to Wound. AP is high, but the things it wants to hit will probably have Invuln, so let's say another 66% to get through Saves. Then, average damage will be 3.5. Mathing it out, your average damage per turn on a single Mek Gun is gonna be around 1 Damage. This on top of the fact that it has 3" movement, meaning it's easy to stay out of LOS on many maps, and even if it moves into LOS, it's taking a -1 to hit penalty.
I'm not saying Mek Gunz are bad. Im just refuting the assertion that they're some kind of broken unit. You have to take more than "ideal situation" into account with units. I mean, Flash Gitz are 35 pts for 3 shots, S6, AP-2, and 2 Damage. They get Kultur and can use Stratagems. They can ride in a vehicle and fire with Open Topped, or be Da Jumped to where they need to be. Are Flash Gitz unbalanced? Cuz, from what I've seen, practically no one bothers taking them.
flandarz wrote: I dunno. On average, it's gonna get 2 shots and 1 hit. Against T8 targets, you got like a 40% chance to Wound. AP is high, but the things it wants to hit will probably have Invuln, so let's say another 66% to get through Saves. Then, average damage will be 3.5. Mathing it out, your average damage per turn on a single Mek Gun is gonna be around 1 Damage. This on top of the fact that it has 3" movement, meaning it's easy to stay out of LOS on many maps, and even if it moves into LOS, it's taking a -1 to hit penalty.
I'm not saying Mek Gunz are bad. Im just refuting the assertion that they're some kind of broken unit. You have to take more than "ideal situation" into account with units. I mean, Flash Gitz are 35 pts for 3 shots, S6, AP-2, and 2 Damage. They get Kultur and can use Stratagems. They can ride in a vehicle and fire with Open Topped, or be Da Jumped to where they need to be. Are Flash Gitz unbalanced? Cuz, from what I've seen, practically no one bothers taking them.
I ran the numbers for 3 traktor kannons shooting at a knight. Just for laughs I factored in rolling 3 shots on each for 9 total. and automatically wounding ( which when trying to wound T 8+ is not easy, i fail wound rolls on 2d6 all the time). I also factored in a T8 3+ 5++ knight without adjusting it to the 4++. AVERAGE DAMAGE = 12.25 expected. There was a 5.9% chance to 1 shot it. This is with max shots and auto wounding as well. It is far from OP. This average damage drops to 8.17 if you use 3d3 shots vs 9. This is still automatically wounding.
It goes back to the fact that players remember the times that severe instances happen against them. and not the times that whiffs occur.
flandarz wrote: I dunno. On average, it's gonna get 2 shots and 1 hit. Against T8 targets, you got like a 40% chance to Wound. AP is high, but the things it wants to hit will probably have Invuln, so let's say another 66% to get through Saves. Then, average damage will be 3.5. Mathing it out, your average damage per turn on a single Mek Gun is gonna be around 1 Damage. This on top of the fact that it has 3" movement, meaning it's easy to stay out of LOS on many maps, and even if it moves into LOS, it's taking a -1 to hit penalty.
I'm not saying Mek Gunz are bad. Im just refuting the assertion that they're some kind of broken unit. You have to take more than "ideal situation" into account with units. I mean, Flash Gitz are 35 pts for 3 shots, S6, AP-2, and 2 Damage. They get Kultur and can use Stratagems. They can ride in a vehicle and fire with Open Topped, or be Da Jumped to where they need to be. Are Flash Gitz unbalanced? Cuz, from what I've seen, practically no one bothers taking them.
Nah they are broken good (smashas). Way more average damage than comparable units and enough range to never need to move - with bonkers potential damage. Not to mention the resilience you get on top of it. Flash gits suck for the same reason hell blasters suck - expensive 2 wound models without invo saves die in droves to basically every not basic weapon in your opponents arsenal. Also - lottas are just better aren't they?
flandarz wrote: I dunno. On average, it's gonna get 2 shots and 1 hit. Against T8 targets, you got like a 40% chance to Wound. AP is high, but the things it wants to hit will probably have Invuln, so let's say another 66% to get through Saves. Then, average damage will be 3.5. Mathing it out, your average damage per turn on a single Mek Gun is gonna be around 1 Damage. This on top of the fact that it has 3" movement, meaning it's easy to stay out of LOS on many maps, and even if it moves into LOS, it's taking a -1 to hit penalty.
I'm not saying Mek Gunz are bad. Im just refuting the assertion that they're some kind of broken unit. You have to take more than "ideal situation" into account with units. I mean, Flash Gitz are 35 pts for 3 shots, S6, AP-2, and 2 Damage. They get Kultur and can use Stratagems. They can ride in a vehicle and fire with Open Topped, or be Da Jumped to where they need to be. Are Flash Gitz unbalanced? Cuz, from what I've seen, practically no one bothers taking them.
I ran the numbers for 3 traktor kannons shooting at a knight. Just for laughs I factored in rolling 3 shots on each for 9 total. and automatically wounding ( which when trying to wound T 8+ is not easy, i fail wound rolls on 2d6 all the time). I also factored in a T8 3+ 5++ knight without adjusting it to the 4++. AVERAGE DAMAGE = 12.25 expected. There was a 5.9% chance to 1 shot it. This is with max shots and auto wounding as well. It is far from OP. This average damage drops to 8.17 if you use 3d3 shots vs 9. This is still automatically wounding.
It goes back to the fact that players remember the times that severe instances happen against them. and not the times that whiffs occur.
You do realize the tractor cannons are an AA weapon. They auto hit fly. Not +1 to hit fly. AUTO HIT FLY. So basically you are always shooting it at something that flies. Want to kill knights. Bring SAG. Or even KMK or smasha. Knights die real fast when you are dropping high rate of fire D6 damage on them. I certainly remember the times my lascannon hits on a 6 and doesn't generate additional hits. I remember those times.
flandarz wrote: I dunno. On average, it's gonna get 2 shots and 1 hit. Against T8 targets, you got like a 40% chance to Wound. AP is high, but the things it wants to hit will probably have Invuln, so let's say another 66% to get through Saves. Then, average damage will be 3.5. Mathing it out, your average damage per turn on a single Mek Gun is gonna be around 1 Damage. This on top of the fact that it has 3" movement, meaning it's easy to stay out of LOS on many maps, and even if it moves into LOS, it's taking a -1 to hit penalty.
I'm not saying Mek Gunz are bad. Im just refuting the assertion that they're some kind of broken unit. You have to take more than "ideal situation" into account with units. I mean, Flash Gitz are 35 pts for 3 shots, S6, AP-2, and 2 Damage. They get Kultur and can use Stratagems. They can ride in a vehicle and fire with Open Topped, or be Da Jumped to where they need to be. Are Flash Gitz unbalanced? Cuz, from what I've seen, practically no one bothers taking them.
Nah they are broken good (smashas). Way more average damage than comparable units and enough range to never need to move - with bonkers potential damage. Not to mention the resilience you get on top of it. Flash gits suck for the same reason hell blasters suck - expensive 2 wound models without invo saves die in droves to basically every not basic weapon in your opponents arsenal. Also - lottas are just better aren't they?
flandarz wrote: I dunno. On average, it's gonna get 2 shots and 1 hit. Against T8 targets, you got like a 40% chance to Wound. AP is high, but the things it wants to hit will probably have Invuln, so let's say another 66% to get through Saves. Then, average damage will be 3.5. Mathing it out, your average damage per turn on a single Mek Gun is gonna be around 1 Damage. This on top of the fact that it has 3" movement, meaning it's easy to stay out of LOS on many maps, and even if it moves into LOS, it's taking a -1 to hit penalty.
I'm not saying Mek Gunz are bad. Im just refuting the assertion that they're some kind of broken unit. You have to take more than "ideal situation" into account with units. I mean, Flash Gitz are 35 pts for 3 shots, S6, AP-2, and 2 Damage. They get Kultur and can use Stratagems. They can ride in a vehicle and fire with Open Topped, or be Da Jumped to where they need to be. Are Flash Gitz unbalanced? Cuz, from what I've seen, practically no one bothers taking them.
I ran the numbers for 3 traktor kannons shooting at a knight. Just for laughs I factored in rolling 3 shots on each for 9 total. and automatically wounding ( which when trying to wound T 8+ is not easy, i fail wound rolls on 2d6 all the time). I also factored in a T8 3+ 5++ knight without adjusting it to the 4++. AVERAGE DAMAGE = 12.25 expected. There was a 5.9% chance to 1 shot it. This is with max shots and auto wounding as well. It is far from OP. This average damage drops to 8.17 if you use 3d3 shots vs 9. This is still automatically wounding.
It goes back to the fact that players remember the times that severe instances happen against them. and not the times that whiffs occur.
You do realize the tractor cannons are an AA weapon. They auto hit fly. Not +1 to hit fly. AUTO HIT FLY. So basically you are always shooting it at something that flies. Want to kill knights. Bring SAG. Or even KMK or smasha. Knights die real fast when you are dropping hi rate of fire D6 damage on them.
I apologize. Meant smashas. But did you have a target in mind for me to run numbers against? at AP-2 they still aren't OP. plus they cost more than smashas.
Well a smasha is 31 points or something super low. 9 of them costs less than a knight does and it's basically the worst target for them. They really want to shoot t7 or less.
Xenomancers wrote: Well a smasha is 31 points or something super low. 9 of them costs less than a knight does and it's basically the worst target for them. They really want to shoot t7 or less.
Xenomancers wrote: Well a smasha is 31 points or something super low. 9 of them costs less than a knight does and it's basically the worst target for them. They really want to shoot t7 or less.
eh... smashas really want T6 or less preferably T5
average 2 shots hitting with 1 then 50% to get 1 wounding hit on a T7 before save. it is ap-4, but aggainst elite units there will often be an inv save to get through.
I do agree they are worth taking sometimes, but they are not even the best mek gun and are not in many tournament lists for a reason. It is to random... random number of shots, random 2d6 to wound, it can do amazing or it can be ziltch pretty swingy.
it is liek the SAGbg mek. in theory he is great, but as somebody who runs him it is always a gamble. I have had him blow up knights and I have had him wiff the entire game. d6 shots on random 2d6str w/ BS5 is not reliable.
Xenomancers wrote: Well a smasha is 31 points or something super low. 9 of them costs less than a knight does and it's basically the worst target for them. They really want to shoot t7 or less.
Plus DDD is wasted on a unit that auto hits.
It still rolls to hit against non fliers so it's not wasted unless it's auto hitting which will do way more damage on average - not to mention ignores modifiers to hit. Ork artillery is better just about every else's which is nonsense. Because they have poor BS they overload their numbers of shots and AP and damage statistics.
You do realize the tractor cannons are an AA weapon. They auto hit fly. Not +1 to hit fly. AUTO HIT FLY. So basically you are always shooting it at something that flies. Want to kill knights. Bring SAG. Or even KMK or smasha. Knights die real fast when you are dropping high rate of fire D6 damage on them. I certainly remember the times my lascannon hits on a 6 and doesn't generate additional hits. I remember those times.
Xenomancers wrote: Well a smasha is 31 points or something super low. 9 of them costs less than a knight does and it's basically the worst target for them. They really want to shoot t7 or less.
eh... smashas really want T6 or less preferably T5
average 2 shots hitting with 1 then 50% to get 1 wounding hit on a T7 before save. it is ap-4, but aggainst elite units there will often be an inv save to get through.
I do agree they are worth taking sometimes, but they are not even the best mek gun and are not in many tournament lists for a reason. It is to random... random number of shots, random 2d6 to wound, it can do amazing or it can be ziltch pretty swingy.
it is liek the SAGbg mek. in theory he is great, but as somebody who runs him it is always a gamble. I have had him blow up knights and I have had him wiff the entire game. d6 shots on random 2d6str w/ BS5 is not reliable.
Is a doomsday arc reliable? Does that stop it from being auto include? I've seen more than once it single handedly winning the game for about 60 points. Really though - most of the time it gets a single d6 damage through on a tank which is about on par with what a unit with 3 heavies does.
You do realize the tractor cannons are an AA weapon. They auto hit fly. Not +1 to hit fly. AUTO HIT FLY. So basically you are always shooting it at something that flies. Want to kill knights. Bring SAG. Or even KMK or smasha. Knights die real fast when you are dropping high rate of fire D6 damage on them. I certainly remember the times my lascannon hits on a 6 and doesn't generate additional hits. I remember those times.
Tractor cannons auto hit everything.
You sure? My opponent is gimping himself if that is the case.
I mean, the average damage is 1 per turn. Is that "way more" than comparable units? Depends on the target, I suppose. A single Flash Git, benefiting from the Freebooter Kultur, is gonna have an average of around 2 damage against its prefered targets. On the other hand, a Smasha shooting at a horde of IG is gonna be lucky to remove 1 model a turn. Sure it has range, but unless you're playing on an empty board, it still has to deal with LOS. It also has a large footprint for its cost. What, like 2 or 3 Smashas take up the same board space as a single Castellan?
Again, ain't saying they're bad. They're good. But broken? Nah. There's plenty of counter play to them. I think you may be conflating "not terrible" with "broken". Point cost to damage potential *is* solid (though average damage is, again, pretty low. 1 damage per turn for 35 pts ain't exactly efficient). Pretty tough too (though I doubt many people are gonna have issues taking out T5 with 5W and a 4+ Save). Can't argue there. There are two big issues with Mek Gunz. 1) they have a small pool of targets that they're gonna be useful against. Against a horde list, they'll never make their points back. Shorter vehicles will be able to hide behind terrain as well. If your opponent isn't bringing tall walkers, you're gonna end up wasting its potential. 2) they don't benefit from anything except DDD. No "shoot again". No +1 to hit from Freebooters. No Grot Shields. And, because they're so large, getting more than 1 into cover is gonna be difficult AND means your other units are gonna be outside of Cover. At the end of the day, I believe they're incredibly easy to avoid on any map that has an appropriate amount of terrain. Good damage potential doesn't mean much if you have no targets, or only 1W Infantry.
I brought up Gitz because they're essentially the same point cost for a similar weapon profile. Except they also get to do the thing Gunz can't. Move. Kultur use. Stratagem use. Hell, they even get a chance to shoot again without a Stratagem. I dunno if I'd say Lootas are better, because that will depend on the mission and the board. In a city-scape, with lots of tall buildings, it'll probably be better to have a more mobile Flash Git unit than a stationary Loota Mob.
A unit of traktor kannons (I use 3 for most tests) averages 2.63 damage to a landraider. Against a T7 3+ sv carnifex it averages 4.67 damage. Against a unit with T6 and 4+ it averages 5.83 damage. Mathematically they aren't as great as they seem.
I expect Xeno has had some real bad games against some player with bomb dice rolls.
Yes this bonus is higher against units with fly because of rolling 2d6 for damage and taking the highest but not everyone encounters flyer lists and will justify the cost over smashas.
Smashas themselves aren't even that great. They are cheap but again the randomness really hurts.
Traktor Kannons just aren't very good I can't see a reason to ever use more than 2 in a list. I took all mine apart to build more smasha guns last year I'm up to 6 of those now. Still the KMK is better than it was in the Index with the mighty D6 damage it puts out now. The traktor Kannon is unimpressive.
warhead01 wrote: Traktor Kannons just aren't very good I can't see a reason to ever use more than 2 in a list. I took all mine apart to build more smasha guns last year I'm up to 6 of those not. Still the KMK is better than it was in the Index with the mighty D6 damage it puts out now. The traktor Kannon is unimpressive.
My brother tends to play 3 BA storm raven lists. Yeah I take them for sure if I'm playing him. His daemons have Flying DPs, LoCs and Belakor. At least 1 flyrant in his nids. But overall yeah smashas can do the same job but a bit better. havent tried the KMK yet. [
mhalko1 wrote: A unit of traktor kannons (I use 3 for most tests) averages 2.63 damage to a landraider. Against a T7 3+ sv carnifex it averages 4.67 damage. Against a unit with T6 and 4+ it averages 5.83 damage. Mathematically they aren't as great as they seem.
I expect Xeno has had some real bad games against some player with bomb dice rolls.
Yes this bonus is higher against units with fly because of rolling 2d6 for damage and taking the highest but not everyone encounters flyer lists and will justify the cost over smashas.
Smashas themselves aren't even that great. They are cheap but again the randomness really hurts.
Are we talking about smash guns or tractor cannons? It is the smasha that is redic. Tractors I could care less about - it's still way better than a lascannon though. Also you can not discount bomb dice rolls. If you can do a potential of 18(36) damage compared to 6 - but average about the same damage. It is clear what the better choice is. ESP when it costs dramatically less and is dramatically more durable.
I honestly don't know that much about a lascannon, so I can only tell you what my own experiences with Smashas are. In the match-ups that I've brought them in, they've done well in every case except one. I was playing against Admech on a city map, and half my Smashas never got to shoot, while the other half barely managed to take down a single Kastellan. This is why I say that damage potential isn't everything. Mek Gunz are slow and bulky. With 3" of movement on an (approximately) 4" base, you can't even get over any obstacles. Played on a map with an appropriate amount of terrain, they'll be basically stuck. Any map that has LOS blocking terrain renders them next to useless. Your Marine with a Lascannon can enter buildings, go into a vehicle, and basically just move as it pleases. If it doesn't have LOS, it can get LOS. And this is quite aside from the fact that d3 shots at 4BS is only getting a single hit (on average), which becomes less and less likely to actually cause damage as Toughness and Saves improve. Sure, a single Mek Gun could potentially deal 18 Wounds. But, realistically, it's gonna deal FAR less. As I demonstrated above, average Wounds per Turn over a 5 Turn game, for a single Mek Gun, is going to be far closer to 1.
flandarz wrote: I honestly don't know that much about a lascannon, so I can only tell you what my own experiences with Smashas are. In the match-ups that I've brought them in, they've done well in every case except one. I was playing against Admech on a city map, and half my Smashas never got to shoot, while the other half barely managed to take down a single Kastellan. This is why I say that damage potential isn't everything. Mek Gunz are slow and bulky. With 3" of movement on an (approximately) 4" base, you can't even get over any obstacles. Played on a map with an appropriate amount of terrain, they'll be basically stuck. Any map that has LOS blocking terrain renders them next to useless. Your Marine with a Lascannon can enter buildings, go into a vehicle, and basically just move as it pleases. If it doesn't have LOS, it can get LOS. And this is quite aside from the fact that d3 shots at 4BS is only getting a single hit (on average), which becomes less and less likely to actually cause damage as Toughness and Saves improve. Sure, a single Mek Gun could potentially deal 18 Wounds. But, realistically, it's gonna deal FAR less. As I demonstrated above, average Wounds per Turn over a 5 Turn game, for a single Mek Gun, is going to be far closer to 1.
Averaging a single hit with a d6 damage weapon is amazing (it's actually a little better because 6's generate additional hit chances.) However - compare that to a lascannon which on a 1 W platform with bs 3+costs 13+25 = 38 points. 7 points more and averages 2/3 of a hit with a weaker AP-3 d6 damage profile but better str(not by much because the smash gun is better at wounding weaker things). I think a Smasha gun has t5 with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. So roughly 5 times more resilient. The comparison is bonkers. If a smasha gun is really worth 31 points. A marine with a LC should be 15/16 points.
Well, here's the characteristics of a Smasha: 3" Move, BS4+, WS5+, S2, T5, W6, A2, L6, Sv 4+. The gun itself is 48", d3 shots, S*, AP-4, Dd6, wounds on a 2d6 roll equal to or greater than the target. D3 shots averaged to 2 shots. BS4+ averages to 1 hit. 41.7% chance to get an 8 on a 2d6 roll averages to 0.42 hits. 5++ Save averages to 0.28 hits. Then d6 damage is an average of 3.5 damage. Divide that by the approximately 1 in 4 chance to actually get past Saves and you get 0.98 Damage, on average, per turn of shooting. If you include the 1 in 12 chance that a DDD extra attack will hit, it's probably pretty dang close to 1 Damage per Turn. Assuming you have LOS, because 3" movement isn't going to get you anywhere, and if you *do* move you've reduced your average damage per turn to 0.33.
I don't know what kind of statistics a Marine has, nor what sorts of advantages his Chapter and Stratagems can give him. Remember that Smashas get none of this. They're a stationary mortar with a giant sign that says "please shoot me". A 4+ Save and T5 is pretty easy for any army to deal with, especially against a target with as large a footprint as a Smasha. Your Marine can hide practically anywhere. A Smasha cannot. Just looking at numbers is a terrible way to gauge the effectiveness of a unit.
warhead01 wrote: Traktor Kannons just aren't very good I can't see a reason to ever use more than 2 in a list. I took all mine apart to build more smasha guns last year I'm up to 6 of those not. Still the KMK is better than it was in the Index with the mighty D6 damage it puts out now. The traktor Kannon is unimpressive.
My brother tends to play 3 BA storm raven lists. Yeah I take them for sure if I'm playing him. His daemons have Flying DPs, LoCs and Belakor. At least 1 flyrant in his nids. But overall yeah smashas can do the same job but a bit better. havent tried the KMK yet. [
If they're working for you then keep doing what your doing. lol. I was mostly thinking about the comment ont he other page about having 9 in a list.
When I think about Orks I think GW thought that players would only field 3 or 6 and that players would not just pick "the best one" but use some of each. And there's nothing stopping any one from doing which ever way. I have one friend that I specifically build list for so that he has a good time and the fights aren't just one sided when Orks vs Marines could very well be. Super casual. in those lists I tend to just field 3 mek guns, 1 bubble chukkas a Smasha Gun and a KMK. Against my more competitive friend The sky is the limit as my goal is usually to table him because if I don't I have probably already lost.
Wow! this thread is taking off and I am kind of maybe learning a lot, here and there, from this thread.
Y'know what the problem with relying on psykers to move units across the field is? Dice. Fought IG today and lost turn 1 because I failed to Da Jump a unit of Skarboyz until turn 3, when the rest of my was had been easily mopped up by the gun line. Pfbthbfhtbfhtfhtb! *mimes a 'jerking off' motion*
Relying on (even with a buffed weirdboy and a reroll) dice kills the reliability of this tidbit of 'advice'. I stand firm in my position that having to bypass movement to make it to melee is horseGAK and I am excitedly worried about next edition; will they fix this or feth it further?
I will post my collection later. It is not much more than was listed in my 2000 point list (I think I have 2400 points total)
Did you make sure your Weirdboy was within 9" of the Skarboyz? Remember that you get a +1 to Psyker Tests as long as 10 Ork Models are close to you. With a full 30 model unit of Boyz (and Command Reroll) you should only be failing your Da Jump maybe once every 30 tries or so?
Footprint is something I haven't seen talked about much. You have a sizeable investment of gretchin and boyz, march your boyz in long rectangular boxes. If you have a thirty man block, march them 3x10, with the narrow end at the front, and remove causalities from the back. This makes the important part of your footprint smaller, allowing you to get more units of boyz in on the action. It can deny you a few extra bodies in an assault if you can get a large enough squad there, but it blew my mind in terms of effectiveness when I started doing it.
Killa Kans
. Killa Kan: Big Shoota, Buzzsaw
. Killa Kan: Kan Klaw, Rokkit Launcha
Killa Kans
. Killa Kan: Drilla, Grotzooka
+ Dedicated Transport +
Trukk (Classic design from the Build&Paint kit): Big Shoota
++ Fortification Network (Orks) ++
Clan Kultur: No + Fortification +
Mekboy Workshop
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flandarz wrote: Did you make sure your Weirdboy was within 9" of the Skarboyz? Remember that you get a +1 to Psyker Tests as long as 10 Ork Models are close to you. With a full 30 model unit of Boyz (and Command Reroll) you should only be failing your Da Jump maybe once every 30 tries or so?
Yeah, I know... I had moved the Weirdboy, but not the SkarBoyz, forgetting about the buff and just not thinking. Even if I had had the buff, my rolling was abysmal. Failing (yup) the Da Jump two (yup) turns in a row (yup) was painful (shoot me). The SkarBoyz were hella far back (Vanguard map, I dropped them in my back corner out of range and sight) and did not bother moving them, banking on the Da Jump (guess what I will not be doing, again) to get them across the field. By turn 3, when it successfully manifested, I had so little left and had removed only a handful of models from his forces and then failed the charge, so the SkarBoyz ate all the fire. It was, very much, a game of "Getting fethed by Murphy" (that which may have gone wrong, did.)
Just such a painful board-wipe. It was the 2nd time I had faced this guy and his 1000 points of IG
I did manage to win my first match in the game I played after the one against the IG, today. Small victory that I do not really count as I was playing someone in a position similar to my own, just a few games behind. He is learning the game and has a Nurgle army and had been forgetting several abilities on his warlord and a couple other units. He had also kept his Hellbrute out of LoS while his plague balloon thing (it had dual plague flamers, which wiped a 20-strong unit of grots) was "hey diddle diddle, straight up the middle". We both laughed as his psyker farted (Plagued Winds?) my Nobz out of existence. Full squad of 10 wiped (ba dum tss) But by the end of turn 4, he had realized some mistakes and was not in a good.position so we called it and are giving it another crack, tomorrow. I am looking forward to the rematch with his having a greater comprehension of his forces.
Rismonite wrote: Footprint is something I haven't seen talked about much. You have a sizeable investment of gretchin and boyz, march your boyz in long rectangular boxes. If you have a thirty man block, march them 3x10, with the narrow end at the front, and remove causalities from the back. This makes the important part of your footprint smaller, allowing you to get more units of boyz in on the action. It can deny you a few extra bodies in an assault if you can get a large enough squad there, but it blew my mind in terms of effectiveness when I started doing it.
Yeah, who knew Napoleonic tactics would be valid in the 41st millennium? With 'battalion' attack columns preceded by Grot 'skirmishers' - we should use biker 'cavalry' to complete the scene :-) Had a game vs Praetorian IG, looked so much like a re-run of an obscure Peninsula battle.
Though I normally go for a wider column on a non-City board, your three wide ones fit City 'roads' better, and their length mean the Pain Boy (if you run one) is away from the danger. Do you find a problem with 30mm bases, or are yours still on 25mm?
Tried an alternative tactic last tournament (as recent matches made me give up the concept of conventional fire power). 3 weirdboys, one warboss and remaining pts into boys. The idea was to do all the dmg with smite spam. It worked to some degree, as i never failed a smite with +3 pretty much all the time, and often d6dmg. But you take lots of perils, so if you wanna try this at home bring a painboy or two. The output was roughly 9dmg/turn. Played evil suns to get smite range faster
Weakness is you cant select targets and short range. The boys add some wounds with shooting and melee.
Strength: reliable and board controll
Failing Da Jump twice in a row is really unlucky, don't let that put you off the psychic power! That's just the nature of the psychic phase. Early on in the game it should be possible to get that +3 to cast from the Weirdboy's Waaagh! Energy ability, and rolling a 7+ on 2D6+3 is far more likely than not, particularly with a command re-roll. All the same, sometimes you fail, but thems the breaks. Congratulations on your win. Building up a solid set of tactics takes a long time in this game and I've always found Orks to be a fairly nuanced army to play compared to others.
If you are haumted by such bad luck with da jump, maybe start taking the gitbones relic for another +1 to cast. With boys and that giving +4 on 7+ to succed and command reroll available you would be need a new level of bad luck to fail.
Jidmah wrote: Gitbones also increase the chance of exploding more likely, so his "luck" could swing the other way and kill his weirdboy in two turns.
Then bring a painboy. Also perils does maximum of 3 mortal wounds, painboy cant insta die round one unless sniped in some way. Usually the jump is only essential the first turn by my experience.
OK, so with 2,304 points to work with, it's pretty obvious that in 2k games, there's not a whole lot of wiggle room for you to work with, but it also sounds like you play at least some 1k games, where 2,304 points is a lot of flexibility.
And you're committing to Goffs. Honestly, I dislike Goffs because I always feel like they're a "win more" mechanic that only really comes in big when you've already gotten lucky with your charge rolls, psychic rolls etc and you get to kill a bunch more stuff, Deffskullz Evil Sunz etc I just like a lot more. But it's your call.
Here's my Dirt Simple 1k horde list:
Warboss w/PK Big Mek w/KFF
30x choppa boyz
30x choppa boyz
10x shoota boyz
Painboy
2nd Battalion
Weirdboy
Weirdboy
Gretchin
Gretchin
Gretchin
This is going to be a solid list to teach you the fundamentals of how you should run a horde contingent. It doesn't ALWAYS have to be your whole list, but you should know how a list works if it IS your whole list because it gives you only one thing to concentrate on. Personally I would always run Sunz here, but you can run Goffs if you wish.
If it were me running this list, I would deploy a line of grots in the front, with the plan of grot shielding the biggest single source of enemy fire (if they have a Punisher tank, or a Riptide, or whatever, this is what you Shield against). I would use Mob Up to absorb the 10-man squad, Warpath then Da Jump a squad turn 1, and if they make it in I would spend 3 on Get Stuck In Lads. I would position all boyz within 9" of the big mek and 3" of the painboy and rely on 5++ 6+++ to keep them alive.
Ideally I would spend about 4-5cp on a Grot Shield then on offense turn 1, and I would conserve at least 5CP for an Insane Bravery+Endless Green Tide combo if my opponent is stupid and leaves one of my 30-blocks with a couple alive, relying on morale to wipe them out.
The actual micro-management gameplay is going to come from your blocks of boyz that you successfully charge in with. Using your pile-in moves, you'll want to sweep as many toothless shooty units/vehicles into the combat as possible, and surround anything you're able to in order to prevent shooting turn 1. Don't forget that even if you've only got a chaff line to fight in your first round of combat, you can pile in 3" to get anything else within 1" and use Get Stuck In to get even farther forward. The primary goal of the first squad is tying up and distraction, not killing.
This is going to be a really autopilot, simple list, that pretty much just teaches you how to execute on a basic ork strategy. It sounds like from your references to Skarboyz, misunderstanding the benefits of Evil Sunz and not making use of the Weirdboy buff, you need to drill down on a couple of the fundamentals of how the horde block works - and that's OK, I'm not trying to put you down or call you stupid.
For higher point level games, I'd incorporate a small, fast moving shooting contingent. I'd add in the following to make the list into 1500 points:
-7x tankbustas riding in a trukk
-one Trakk
-4 warbikers
-5 meganobz
The trakk and bikers primary job would be securing objectives around the map, but they can chew away at light chaff units and make a nuisance of themselves. Make sure all 4+sv units are under the KFF bubble top of turn 1 just in case you get the second turn, you want to retain the aspect of your army that makes AP greater than -1 useless.The Meganobz take a tellyporta to the battlefield, which means you'll need to be a bit more conservative since you want to make sure your horde core can still use the most vital stratagems: Grot Shield, Get Stuck In, Insane Bravery, Endless Green Tide. Anything you have the opportunity to stash out of line of sight, to make fitting most of your army under the KFF easier, you should do so.
Finally, to move it up to a full 2k list, change over from a double Battalion to a Brigade, add your heavy supports, the rest of your boyz, some extra gretchin for objective grabbing, and your Nobz.
Your list works worst at 2k unfortunately because you create an obvious target unit in the nobz which necessitates your grot shields to save them from plasma and other 2d weapons. If I were to improve your model pool, my first buy would be a Bonebreaka battlewagon to contain the nobz mek and warboss, allowing your boyz to just get to battle via two uses of Warpath+Da Jump from your weirdboys. Load them up to the full +3 for each cast - if they pop after the second, it doesn't matter, we only need them for two and if they survive to run around smiting once in a while, well great, that's nice. Then the KFF can shift to just protecting the Trakks, Trukk, Wagon and Dreads and the boyz rely just on the painboy and their saves.
I would strongly tell you to consider evil sunz as your primary subfaction type, because the +1 to charge off deep strike really really is critical for Ork lists like this to thrive. but if you are committed to goffs, the extra damage your units that do get in will do hopefully will offset a few failed charges. I just find it the biggest feelsbad moment in the game so I build my army to mitigate it.
I have to stress that you collection isn't so bad it's impossible for you to win. You have a good list. You just have to learn the ork battleplan and I think that starts with stripping your army down to a basic level and learning how the infantry block that will be the core of your list wants to fight.
I did manage to win my first match in the game I played after the one against the IG, today. Small victory that I do not really count as I was playing someone in a position similar to my own, just a few games behind. He is learning the game and has a Nurgle army and had been forgetting several abilities on his warlord and a couple other units
This sounds like the kinds of games you might like to continue to look for. I don't mean that these are games for winning but games for learning. It sounds like you are still fairly new yourself so play with people who are also new and enjoy the games. I'm not saying don't play with a more experienced crowd but the best thing to do is play games to help you become a stronger player and maybe have more fun.
The Scotsman has given you a very good start for your list. My suggestion is that if you want to run a true Greentide, you'll want 120 Boyz, minimum. The goal of a Greentide isn't to take down your opponent's army. It's to have so many bodies on the board that your opponent can't stop you from gaining VP from Objectives. So many that they don't have any chance to wipe them all.
Rismonite wrote: Footprint is something I haven't seen talked about much. You have a sizeable investment of gretchin and boyz, march your boyz in long rectangular boxes. If you have a thirty man block, march them 3x10, with the narrow end at the front, and remove causalities from the back. This makes the important part of your footprint smaller, allowing you to get more units of boyz in on the action. It can deny you a few extra bodies in an assault if you can get a large enough squad there, but it blew my mind in terms of effectiveness when I started doing it.
Yeah, who knew Napoleonic tactics would be valid in the 41st millennium? With 'battalion' attack columns preceded by Grot 'skirmishers' - we should use biker 'cavalry' to complete the scene :-) Had a game vs Praetorian IG, looked so much like a re-run of an obscure Peninsula battle.
Though I normally go for a wider column on a non-City board, your three wide ones fit City 'roads' better, and their length mean the Pain Boy (if you run one) is away from the danger. Do you find a problem with 30mm bases, or are yours still on 25mm?
Still on the tiny bases, I've been on a hiatus for six months so I haven't had anybody really pressuring me to switch. I need to dig back in to what has changed and rebase some models.
Nothing saying you have to re-base has come from GW, so save yourself the time & trouble. Not to mention getting more Boyz in combat:
"To target an enemy unit, the attacking model must either be within 1" of that unit, or within 1" of another model that is itself within 1" of that unit"
On 25mm base you get _two_ models within 1" of the enemy, and _two more_ models within 1" of _them_, as 25mm<1".
flandarz wrote: The Scotsman has given you a very good start for your list. My suggestion is that if you want to run a true Greentide, you'll want 120 Boyz, minimum. The goal of a Greentide isn't to take down your opponent's army. It's to have so many bodies on the board that your opponent can't stop you from gaining VP from Objectives. So many that they don't have any chance to wipe them all.
I'm of the opinion that based on his comments, he hates running the green tide style of just removing models and hoping you have enough models to win on objectives. But he is heavily invested in having a solid block of ork boyz, so I think it'd be somewhat silly to not assume that any eventual 2k list isn't going to be relying on a boyz block core.
There's multiple ways you can take a list with 2 large units of boyz though, because with just two units it's only 2 turns to Da Jump both squads directly at the enemy lines, and they work as great distractions/designated die-ers for any kind of ork list.
Personally I find the actual green tide "bring so many bodies your opponent can't kill them in 5 turns" to be the most boring way to play orks, and most of my lists will either bring a fast armored contingent to go with my boyz block, or extra deep strikers to make an alpha strike list.
I'm of the opinion that based on his comments, he hates running the green tide style of just removing models and hoping you have enough models to win on objectives. But he is heavily invested in having a solid block of ork boyz, so I think it'd be somewhat silly to not assume that any eventual 2k list isn't going to be relying on a boyz block core.
There's multiple ways you can take a list with 2 large units of boyz though, because with just two units it's only 2 turns to Da Jump both squads directly at the enemy lines, and they work as great distractions/designated die-ers for any kind of ork list.
Personally I find the actual green tide "bring so many bodies your opponent can't kill them in 5 turns" to be the most boring way to play orks, and most of my lists will either bring a fast armored contingent to go with my boyz block, or extra deep strikers to make an alpha strike list.
I do not plan on fielding more than 90 Boyz and 60 Gretchin and that is already twice as many as I would prefer. You are correct; Green Tide is not my style of play. It is boring, expensive and a waste of everyone's time. And I am no longer relying on Da Jump to even go off, either. Dice. Are. Unreliable. If I want boyz in their face, it will be by Deepstrike, so that the unit is not on the board to get shot when Da Jump fails to manifest.
Honestly, my issue has become "8th is pretty gakky for melee armies when facing shooting armies" and that is the majority of the match-ups that I will face. Having to completely bypass movement, in order to "reliably" make it to charge range,.is terrible game design and Da Jump is lip-service, at best. While we are on the subject of lip-service, so is Dakka Dakka Dakka (yeah, it can be handy, but will mostly be additional slugga and shoota shots, because of weight of dice. Units with fewer shots having to rely on DDD are going to fall behind because Dice. Are. Not. Reliable.
There are a few things I could add/remove to make a decent 40k Orks list, but I also do not want to be a douchebag and waste people's time by taking so long to set up and move my units. (Sorry if considering the opponent's life is "too much" for the average player who just wants to win to comprehend) so I am not going to commit to a full Green Tide list (It already takes me too long to do gak, as it is.)
"Weight of dice" does, indeed, improve the over-all theoretical average of the results. In practice, though, DICE! ARE! NOT! fething! RELIABLE!
Can I use Grot Shields more than once a turn? Which version of 8th should I be playing? Rules As Written core book, but Chapter Approved Missions?
Meh, my Orks have been Shoota Boyz since 3rd edition. With 2 attacks each Orks are good enough at combat that they don't need to base their strategy on it. Being able to shoot, however, is very very important. Not useful advise where they already have sluggas and choppas, I know, but I just find it weird to go all in on close combat when Orks have some incredible bonuses to shooting.
My experience, with Ork shooting has been:
- Roll handfulls of dice
- Look for 6's
- Roll extra shots
- Score a couple wounds out of a handful of hits
- Enemy makes their armour saves, maybe a wound gets through.
(Meanwhile, the enemy hits on 2-3 and re-rolls 1's and has AP so I am just bleeding bases and causing minimal wounds, myself)
My dice rolling must just be ass, compared to everyone else's. Yet more evidence that I am not meant to be successful at anything in my life. A doormat. My purpose of existence is to be a gak-sponge and soak up everyone's ass-gravy.
General Malarky wrote: My experience, with Ork shooting has been:
- Roll handfulls of dice
- Look for 6's
- Roll extra shots
- Score a couple wounds out of a handful of hits
- Enemy makes their armour saves, maybe a wound gets through.
(Meanwhile, the enemy hits on 2-3 and re-rolls 1's and has AP so I am just bleeding bases and causing minimal wounds, myself)
My dice rolling must just be ass, compared to everyone else's. Yet more evidence that I am not meant to be successful at anything in my life. A doormat. My purpose of existence is to be a gak-sponge and soak up everyone's ass-gravy.
Look, you clearly have some sort of personal issues, coming on here and displaying them for everyone isnt going to help you. 40k is a game, games are meant to be fun, if you're not having fun, stop beating yourself up, just play another game. Your worth as a human being should not be determined by the results of the dicerolls you get. I don't mean to be mean but if the smallest speedbump is enough to make you loath yourself, then maybe you should consult an expert. I say this for your own good.
As to the actual topic of this thread, orks can be played in other ways than green tide. I've started associating orks with mechanized lists more than horde lists since both players at my store play with Morka/Gorka's more often than not. with the amount of models you have access to, experiment to find a playstyle/list that fits what youre looking for in the game. I recomment TableTop Simulator on Steam to test out new units before buying them.
LOL in probably 20 games I've played against orks this eddition Da Jump has NEVER failed to cast.
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General Malarky wrote: My experience, with Ork shooting has been:
- Roll handfulls of dice
- Look for 6's
- Roll extra shots
- Score a couple wounds out of a handful of hits
- Enemy makes their armour saves, maybe a wound gets through.
(Meanwhile, the enemy hits on 2-3 and re-rolls 1's and has AP so I am just bleeding bases and causing minimal wounds, myself)
My dice rolling must just be ass, compared to everyone else's. Yet more evidence that I am not meant to be successful at anything in my life. A doormat. My purpose of existence is to be a gak-sponge and soak up everyone's ass-gravy.
Take 30 shoota boys. Give them more dakka.
That's 30 natural hits If you are free bootas with a +1 thats 45 hit. With 5-6 generating additional hits - easily 60 hits in best case scenario. Youll wound with half on 4's or 1/3 on 5's. Take 30 wounds on you (x) It's likely dead.
You cannot use Grot Shields more than once a phase, no. Here's the deal, buddy. If you want to foot slog, you either have to be tough enough to withstand fire over multiple rounds, or fast enough to get there without taking fire. Boyz are neither of these. You'd be better off bringing a few max-size Nobs, since atleast they got 4+ instead of 6+. I agree with Scotsman; your Boyz are only gonna work for you if you Da Jump them OR if you take so many that your opponent will have trouble eliminating them all. If you wanna be stubborn and not take the advice folks are giving you, then you can't really complain about losing.
I'll agree that large armies just take too long. No one likes a Greentide list. It's boring and lame. Then you need to change your list so it's not in that psuedo-Greentide area. Orkz have a bunch of different options for list building. You could grab a Wartrike, some Flyers, and some Battlewagons and go with a highly mobile Speedfreekz. You could go with Lootas, a SSAG, Gork, etc. and run a more stationary Shooting list. The thing is that you kinda gotta commit. You're taking bits and pieces of a bunch of different units, none of which really synergize with each other.
Another thing is that, when you play Orkz, you have to be ready to take losses. A lot of them. You aren't playing Knights or Eldar Flyers, where it could take two or three turns to take down a unit. Orkz are squishy. Be able to accept that you're gonna have casualties, or don't play Orkz.
Lastly, DDD has a 1 in 18 chance of giving you another shot on a BS5+ model. That is, indeed, unreliable. However, Da Jump has a 58% chance of succeeding without ANY bonus. This goes up to like a 92% chance if you got 30 Boyz nearby. That IS reliable. Ork charges, even without Evil Suns, succeed around 52% of the time at 9". Compared to the 28% chance that any army without 'Ere We Go has, that is pretty damn reliable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also 100% agree with Vlad. You are obviously not having fun playing 40k. If you're spending you limited time on this planet doing something you hate, you're wasting your life. Find something you DO enjoy. If you like the lore, but the wargame isn't your thing, there are multiple 40k videogames for you. There is also Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader, the 40k pen and paper games. Or, you can do like many other people do: just skip the wargame entirely and focus on collecting and painting. You could read the novels as well. There's a ton of ways to enjoy 40k without actually playing the wargame. Find one that works for you.
Xenomancers wrote: LOL in probably 20 games I've played against orks this eddition Da Jump has NEVER failed to cast.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
General Malarky wrote: My experience, with Ork shooting has been:
- Roll handfulls of dice
- Look for 6's
- Roll extra shots
- Score a couple wounds out of a handful of hits
- Enemy makes their armour saves, maybe a wound gets through.
(Meanwhile, the enemy hits on 2-3 and re-rolls 1's and has AP so I am just bleeding bases and causing minimal wounds, myself)
My dice rolling must just be ass, compared to everyone else's. Yet more evidence that I am not meant to be successful at anything in my life. A doormat. My purpose of existence is to be a gak-sponge and soak up everyone's ass-gravy.
Take 30 shoota boys. Give them more dakka.
That's 30 natural hits If you are free bootas with a +1 thats 45 hit. With 5-6 generating additional hits - easily 60 hits in best case scenario. Youll wound with half on 4's or 1/3 on 5's. Take 30 wounds on you (x) It's likely dead.
you only get +1 if a unti withing 24 inches of that unit destroyed an enemy unit in that phase for freebootas, not a flat +1 to hit all the time.
assumign you task 30 shotas in a unit 60 shots, 20 hit, 10 get another shot meaning 3 more hits. 23 ap- str 4 hits. though tis is also assuming all 30 are in 18 inch range
if they do get the +1 hit its 30 hits, 10 more shots and 5 from there so 35 ap-0 str 4 hits.
it is not bad, but there is a reason most ork players mix and match units. I when running green tide rock 10 shootas, 20 slugga/choppa. advance turn 1, shoot shootas to pick off a few models and pick out shoota boyz first on casualties (they go in the back) usually i can only pick 1-2 wounds off a squad after saves in actual practice, but assuming they cannot deal with the whole unit in thier next turn those boyz will do some dmg. (this assumes they were not dajumped or arriving via tellyporta which an ork player shoudl be doing, but as you can only have a few untis use these and a true green tide has at least 180 buys it means some have to hoof it.)
I'm of the opinion that based on his comments, he hates running the green tide style of just removing models and hoping you have enough models to win on objectives. But he is heavily invested in having a solid block of ork boyz, so I think it'd be somewhat silly to not assume that any eventual 2k list isn't going to be relying on a boyz block core.
There's multiple ways you can take a list with 2 large units of boyz though, because with just two units it's only 2 turns to Da Jump both squads directly at the enemy lines, and they work as great distractions/designated die-ers for any kind of ork list.
Personally I find the actual green tide "bring so many bodies your opponent can't kill them in 5 turns" to be the most boring way to play orks, and most of my lists will either bring a fast armored contingent to go with my boyz block, or extra deep strikers to make an alpha strike list.
I do not plan on fielding more than 90 Boyz and 60 Gretchin and that is already twice as many as I would prefer. You are correct; Green Tide is not my style of play. It is boring, expensive and a waste of everyone's time. And I am no longer relying on Da Jump to even go off, either. Dice. Are. Unreliable. If I want boyz in their face, it will be by Deepstrike, so that the unit is not on the board to get shot when Da Jump fails to manifest.
Honestly, my issue has become "8th is pretty gakky for melee armies when facing shooting armies" and that is the majority of the match-ups that I will face. Having to completely bypass movement, in order to "reliably" make it to charge range,.is terrible game design and Da Jump is lip-service, at best. While we are on the subject of lip-service, so is Dakka Dakka Dakka (yeah, it can be handy, but will mostly be additional slugga and shoota shots, because of weight of dice. Units with fewer shots having to rely on DDD are going to fall behind because Dice. Are. Not. Reliable.
There are a few things I could add/remove to make a decent 40k Orks list, but I also do not want to be a douchebag and waste people's time by taking so long to set up and move my units. (Sorry if considering the opponent's life is "too much" for the average player who just wants to win to comprehend) so I am not going to commit to a full Green Tide list (It already takes me too long to do gak, as it is.)
"Weight of dice" does, indeed, improve the over-all theoretical average of the results. In practice, though, DICE! ARE! NOT! fething! RELIABLE!
Can I use Grot Shields more than once a turn? Which version of 8th should I be playing? Rules As Written core book, but Chapter Approved Missions?
fething... Just shoot me.
Dice are unreliable, but the chance of failing to cast Da Jump with a +3 (which you will often have access to, even if you lose models typically you don't lose more than 30 before your first cast if you run 60 boyz) is astronomical in 40k terms - almost nothing can be more reliable, as you have to roll snake eyes then roll another 1 on the CP re-roll. Weirdboyz will always survive the first perils of the warp hit, which even with +3 is still only about 1 in 5, though it definitely feels like more! I usually intend my weirdboyz to cast exactly twice, and then if they're alive after that great, and if not..no biggy. So I have two units in my army I want to Da Jump, which is typically 2x30 boyz. It is also worth noting that the big strength of da jump is that it works turn 1, which as you've learned can be really important as gunlines can put out quite a bit of damage if you don't have anything tying them up and forcing fall backs.
My recommendation to you is literally to run about 2/3 of what you just said. 60 boyz, 40 gretchin, just to get your 6 troops and get either 10 or 12 command points from detachments (depending if you go brigade or not). And after that run the units you actually want to run, vehicles and elites.
You can't Grot Shield more than once per turn in normal rules. That's why I said you should use it to block the biggest single shooting attack in the enemy roster - a punisher tank, or a riptide, or something buffed by a stratagem. If you include a unit that relies on GS to survive out in the open, like footslogging tankbustas, IMO that weakens your list overall because it forces you to protect that unit rather than being able to single out a unit of your enemy's that you'd like to block. That's why I'm not super jazzed about including the unit of Nobz in your list until you get them a transport.
Orks are one of the most iconic close combat races in 40k and have been for years. The lore and the novels are packed with brutal close combat fights between Orks and every Space Marine that's ever been from the God Emperor himself to the lowliest scout.
And yet, reading 4 pages of this, it seem that the iconic melee fighters of the game don't even stand a chance in close combat, assuming they even get there first.
The fault is not the OP. The fault is a horribly, unbalanced game, that is more concerned with quick sales and the giant killer robot toy of the month.
Rarely does this happen in other games systems I play, where even players of mediocre ability have a better chance than this.
My advice to the OP is this: pull the plug on 40k and invest your valuable time and money on another non-GW game.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Orks are one of the most iconic close combat races in 40k and have been for years. The lore and the novels are packed with brutal close combat fights between Orks and every Space Marine that's ever been from the God Emperor himself to the lowliest scout.
And yet, reading 4 pages of this, it seem that the iconic melee fighters of the game don't even stand a chance in close combat, assuming they even get there first.
The fault is not the OP. The fault is a horribly, unbalanced game, that is more concerned with quick sales and the giant killer robot toy of the month.
Rarely does this happen in other games systems I play, where even players of mediocre ability have a better chance than this.
My advice to the OP is this: pull the plug on 40k and invest your valuable time and money on another non-GW game.
If you look at the tournament performance of orks, the discussion in the thread and the ork tactics thread, and that is the summary you take from all of this, I have the following work which will probably also convince you that 40k is the worst game ever, your faction stands no chance, melee is broken and everything sucks:
Spoiler:
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Orks are one of the most iconic close combat races in 40k and have been for years. The lore and the novels are packed with brutal close combat fights between Orks and every Space Marine that's ever been from the God Emperor himself to the lowliest scout.
And yet, reading 4 pages of this, it seem that the iconic melee fighters of the game don't even stand a chance in close combat, assuming they even get there first.
The fault is not the OP. The fault is a horribly, unbalanced game, that is more concerned with quick sales and the giant killer robot toy of the month.
Rarely does this happen in other games systems I play, where even players of mediocre ability have a better chance than this.
My advice to the OP is this: pull the plug on 40k and invest your valuable time and money on another non-GW game.
If you look at the tournament performance of orks, the discussion in the thread and the ork tactics thread, and that is the summary you take from all of this, I have the following work which will probably also convince you that 40k is the worst game ever, your faction stands no chance, melee is broken and everything sucks:
Spoiler:
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.
Nobody expects Orks to be invincible. Nor do I expect Orks to win every game. That would be silly. And yet, It is supposed to be a fun hobby.
To buy, file, glue, undercoat, paint, and varnish over 100+ Orks, is not a 5 minute job. For most people, it's a 5 month job.
There is nothing more soul-crushing than putting in that time and effort, putting those minis on the table, and then having to remove them 30 seconds later, because GW is pushing it's killer robot of the month, and your minis never stood a chance anyway.
Other games and systems handle things a lot better.
Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?
Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.
Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.
General Malarky wrote: Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?
Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.
Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.
a lot of tournaments have goen to chess clocks specifically so you cannot just ride out the clock.
orks are a pretty good book but as repeated they have to dedicate to all mechanized or all boyz and honeslty all boyz does the best. it invalidates every single anti tank weapon your opponent brings and they do not have the shots to deal with you. all mech invalidates all the antiinfantry and orks have cheap enough (poitns wise) models that you bring enough to weather the storm and get stuck in. mixed mech/infantry armies do not work we lack the durability to let an opponent use thier anti tank and anti infantry weapons to full effect without negating one or the other
Part of the issue orks have in pick up games is when people list tailor to your faction. It is hard to make a list that can face down 180+ ork boyz rocking 6+ inv and 6+ fnp rolls and also face off against a imperial knight list. I cannot tell you the amount of times I find a game and suddenly the other player is on thier phone or pencil up tweeking thier list to now have flamers in every squad and the tools to deal with horde (which then surprises them as they get to see an all mech army put on the table as i wait till lists are modded now to unpack my models with my take all comers unmodified list.)
That's why I like my Freebooterz list. I went up against a Tau player, and he thought that I would be charging in waves of Boyz, so he stayed bundled up in a FTGG gaggle. So, when I just decided to shoot him from range for 3 turns, he was hurting.
Like the others said, you have options outside of running as many bodies as you can. But you have to commit. Between Lootaz, Smashas, and SAGs, we got a surprising amount of range to stay back and fire on the enemy. Put a Gork or a few Dreadz into a Tellyporta, use your ranged options to target AT, then drop them in. Tell us what kind of list you wanna run, and we can help you build it.
General Malarky wrote: Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?
Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.
Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.
Again, it only sounds like that because you are reading what you want to read. Look at actual ork tournament-winning lists, and you can see that while some definitely do feature the kind of objective focused game you're describing, many don't, and instead just use a couple of boyz squads Da Jumped at the enemy to tie up gunlines while the actual list tends to operate more on a combination of melee, shooting, elite units, and horde units. While they definitely do maximise their command points pool, they almost always do that with copious amounts of 10-man gretchin squads.
In almost any competitive list unless it's going super heavy on alpha strike/tabling there is far more focus on units intended to score rather than kill. Looking the top 25 lists from adepticon is a great way to see the kind of structure of common competitive ork lists: Typically you've got something big and killy, a bunch of MSU units there to fill out brigades/battalions and maximise command points, and a couple 30-blocks of boyz for da jump to shut down shooters.
Those lists are slightly out of date as they are from when loota bombs so 2 out of the 4 ork lists in the top 16 made use of the loota mob up thing you can no longer do post-FAQ.
If you look at your collection and go:
Ok do I have weirdboyz and a couple 30-blocks of boyz I can da jump? Yes.
OK do I have several squads of gretchins to max out on CP's? Yes.
OK do I have some kind of big scary unit like a gorkanaut, morkanaut, meganobz, or several deff dreads I can Tellyport in and spend Cp on murdering stuff? Yes.
Then you have a solid ork collection that you can structure similarly to the ork lists that are and continue to be winning and placing high in tournaments.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Jump, Weirdboy Staff
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Fist, Weirdboy Staff
Troops: 10x Grots
Troops: 10x Grots
Troops: 10x Grots
++ Brigade Detachment (Orks – Deff Skulls, Vigilus) ++
HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF
HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF HQ: Big Mek: Grot Oiler, Warlord: Sniping, Relic: Souped-up Gun
Troops: 10x Grots
Troops: 10x Grots
Troops: 10x Grots
Troops: 10x Grots
Troops: 10x Grots
Troops: 10x Grots
Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb
Elites: Mad Doc Grotznic
Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb
Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms
Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms
Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms
Troops: 10x Boys: 10x Shoota, 1x Tankbusta bombs, Big Choppa
Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs
Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs
Look at this list. This list won 3rd place at one of the single biggest warhammer 40kGT's 3 months ago, and nothing has changed since then regarding this list. It does not rely on spamming boyz ad nauseum. It does not rely on totally leaving zero targets capable of being shot by anti-vehicle weapons. It does not rely on the loota bomb gimmick. It does not rely on a million smasha gunz, it runs exactly 3 to unlock a brigade as they're the cheapest HS choice that pulls its weight.
It does prioritize objectives over killing, and if you wanted to do that you'd trim out a little bit of the MSU in favor of some more in-your-face elements like the meganobz in deep strike.
General Malarky wrote: Yet more evidence that I am not meant to be successful at anything in my life. A doormat. My purpose of existence is to be a gak-sponge and soak up everyone's ass-gravy.
If you think you're crap, you are.
I know this sounds like hippy-dippy new-age BS, but your own attitude has a huge impact on how things go for you. You say that things never go right for you. Consider that your pessimism may be a major cause, rather than simply the logical result.
---
As for the game, people have given you good advice. Thing is, you need to take it. If you play Orks the way you think they should be played, and consistently lose, then you're not playing them in a competitive way. Playing non-competitively is fine, unless your opponent is playing to win. Then it sucks and you'll feel bad, because it's an unfair, and unfun match-up. So play differently or find some opponents who share your play style.
I mean, it's the same for any competitive game, right? You wouldn't bring a fun themed deck to a Magic: The Gathering tournament, would you? But those can be super fun to play with casual friends. I have a super-fun "everything must be on fire" deck that I *know* is non-competitive, but it's fun anyway as long as I don't try it out against a deck made to smash everything in sight by turn 3.
General Malarky wrote: Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?
Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.
Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.
Most ork lists doing well in tournaments are those who just shoot their enemies to bits with lootas, planes and/or mek guns. They have about as many close combat elements in their lists as your average eldar, chaos or imperial army.
General Malarky wrote: Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?
Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.
Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.
Most ork lists doing well in tournaments are those who just shoot their enemies to bits with lootas, planes and/or mek guns. They have about as many close combat elements in their lists as your average eldar, chaos or imperial army.
Sure. I mean, if you look at the actual ork roster, like in terms of numbers of units, there are more units that primarily do their damage through shooting in the ork codex than there are units that primarily do damage through melee. Ork shooting for the first time I can remember is not just unusably horrendous and units like mek gunz, SAGs, Dakkajets and Lootas are definitely something you can stick onto the primary ork core of da jump boyz+gretchin+weirdboyz and a killa klawboss and do really well.
...You can also do really well with a list like Simon Priddis' at the bad moon GT, which added additional fast and deep strike units to turn that ork core into a powerful alpha strike list. Or Charles Arnett who won the Konrad Curze GT on may 30th with more of a green tide.
Orks since the codex have succeeded with deathstar shooting lists, MSU shooting lists, Flyer lists, MSU mobile scoring lists, alpha strike lists, and horde lists. Pure mechanized is pretty much the only thing I haven't seen, but that's not an ork problem, that's an 8th problem, basically nobody does mechanized lists outside of drukhari venomspam.
Bringing up the particular point that the tournament meta has rotated to at this instant is fairly counterproductive on a post talking about someone struggling to win games in a casual club environment. The only reason I bring up Steve's adepticon list is to demonstrate that the moping due to having a poor model pool is fairly unjustified, because a list that looks extremely close to malarky's collection did perform extremely well at one of the biggest 40kGT's in existence (and also, incidentally, one of the ones that functions the closest to the basic eternal war missions the OP says he plays).
The difference between where the OP is at now and Steve Pampreen is not the difference between OP's current list and an optimized list where instead of a KFF in mega armor he's got a KFF on a bike, and instead of a warboss on foot in a transport he's got a warboss on bike, and instead of Wartrakks he's got slightly more efficient big shoota deffcoptas. It's how he's playing the models. And that's good! That's what everyone should hope for when making a post like this - that the models you have are decent, you have the tools to approximate the structure of a competitive list, and the primary thing you can do to improve the number of games you win is learning how to play that list.
I have a 2k list that brings 2 Morkanauts and a Gorkanaut, supported by 72 shoota boys (one trukk), 30 gretchen, warboss w/ relic klaw (optional), SSAG, 2 weirdboys, 3 mek gunz.
I have tabled tyranid and marine players without loosing a unit, or if I do it is the gretchen units.
It performs very well short of facing knight lists, and I haven't gotten the opportunity to fight the Dominus class yet either. (I don't think anyone in my store owns one)
and yes it is mostly shooty but can switch it up and melee in a pinch if needed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also It does go back to what missions you are playing. The CA 2018 book has the best missions by far. They are typically missions where you cap VP at the end of every battle round instead of at the end of the game. In addition If you can place them in the neutral zone and force your opponent to have to come forward that is better.
Lastly these missions remove the rule that says the game is over if you get tabled. This can allow you to cap objectives and if you get far enough ahead your opponent can't catch up as they got too focused on killing models.
General Malarky wrote: Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?
Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.
Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.
Most ork lists doing well in tournaments are those who just shoot their enemies to bits with lootas, planes and/or mek guns. They have about as many close combat elements in their lists as your average eldar, chaos or imperial army.
Sure. I mean, if you look at the actual ork roster, like in terms of numbers of units, there are more units that primarily do their damage through shooting in the ork codex than there are units that primarily do damage through melee. Ork shooting for the first time I can remember is not just unusably horrendous and units like mek gunz, SAGs, Dakkajets and Lootas are definitely something you can stick onto the primary ork core of da jump boyz+gretchin+weirdboyz and a killa klawboss and do really well.
...You can also do really well with a list like Simon Priddis' at the bad moon GT, which added additional fast and deep strike units to turn that ork core into a powerful alpha strike list. Or Charles Arnett who won the Konrad Curze GT on may 30th with more of a green tide.
Simon Priddis was running a green tide with a good part of the tide being rokkit-propelled. He as almost twice as many wounds as OP in his list and much more speed.
Charles Armett still had a pretty shooty list - 3 SAGs, 4 Mek guns and koptas to complete his brigade. He brought 120 boyz, 3 MANz(objective squatters) and Mad Dok, so his list is pretty choppy for ork standards, but still relies on shooty elements to clear out threats and deep strikes to keep his boyz safe.
Orks since the codex have succeeded with deathstar shooting lists, MSU shooting lists, Flyer lists, MSU mobile scoring lists, alpha strike lists, and horde lists.
Lootaz, SAG, mek guns and planes basically all are the same archetype "shooty orks" that combines with the core you mentioned and usually those lists have either kommandoz, koptas or MANz sprinkled in for objective squatting.
Green tide is another archetype that we all know well enough and no one likes playing.
I can't remember anything outside of those two archetypes placing well this year.
Bringing up the particular point that the tournament meta has rotated to at this instant is fairly counterproductive on a post talking about someone struggling to win games in a casual club environment. The only reason I bring up Steve's adepticon list is to demonstrate that the moping due to having a poor model pool is fairly unjustified, because a list that looks extremely close to malarky's collection did perform extremely well at one of the biggest 40kGT's in existence (and also, incidentally, one of the ones that functions the closest to the basic eternal war missions the OP says he plays).
Even in casual games orks with great shooting capabilities will do much better than those just running at your enemy. Your best-of-box-sets primaris army operated by semi-decent general will murder an ork army just running at them, which is pretty much what he has now.
So yes, he has a great collection to start from, but without adding some firepower, I don't see his small number of footslogging orks getting into combat. And by adding firepower he will move towards the kind of list he wants to play anyways.
The difference between where the OP is at now and Steve Pampreen is not the difference between OP's current list and an optimized list where instead of a KFF in mega armor he's got a KFF on a bike, and instead of a warboss on foot in a transport he's got a warboss on bike, and instead of Wartrakks he's got slightly more efficient big shoota deffcoptas. It's how he's playing the models. And that's good! That's what everyone should hope for when making a post like this - that the models you have are decent, you have the tools to approximate the structure of a competitive list, and the primary thing you can do to improve the number of games you win is learning how to play that list.
IMO the difference is that Steve is bringing three smashas and 15 lootas with a grot screen. Being able to destroy one or two anti-infantry units in turn one makes all the difference between getting into combat and dying on the way there.
General Malarky wrote: Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?
Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.
Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.
Most ork lists doing well in tournaments are those who just shoot their enemies to bits with lootas, planes and/or mek guns. They have about as many close combat elements in their lists as your average eldar, chaos or imperial army.
Sure. I mean, if you look at the actual ork roster, like in terms of numbers of units, there are more units that primarily do their damage through shooting in the ork codex than there are units that primarily do damage through melee. Ork shooting for the first time I can remember is not just unusably horrendous and units like mek gunz, SAGs, Dakkajets and Lootas are definitely something you can stick onto the primary ork core of da jump boyz+gretchin+weirdboyz and a killa klawboss and do really well.
...You can also do really well with a list like Simon Priddis' at the bad moon GT, which added additional fast and deep strike units to turn that ork core into a powerful alpha strike list. Or Charles Arnett who won the Konrad Curze GT on may 30th with more of a green tide.
Simon Priddis was running a green tide with a good part of the tide being rokkit-propelled. He as almost twice as many wounds as OP in his list and much more speed.
Charles Armett still had a pretty shooty list - 3 SAGs, 4 Mek guns and koptas to complete his brigade. He brought 120 boyz, 3 MANz(objective squatters) and Mad Dok, so his list is pretty choppy for ork standards, but still relies on shooty elements to clear out threats and deep strikes to keep his boyz safe.
Orks since the codex have succeeded with deathstar shooting lists, MSU shooting lists, Flyer lists, MSU mobile scoring lists, alpha strike lists, and horde lists.
Lootaz, SAG, mek guns and planes basically all are the same archetype "shooty orks" that combines with the core you mentioned and usually those lists have either kommandoz, koptas or MANz sprinkled in for objective squatting.
Green tide is another archetype that we all know well enough and no one likes playing.
I can't remember anything outside of those two archetypes placing well this year.
Bringing up the particular point that the tournament meta has rotated to at this instant is fairly counterproductive on a post talking about someone struggling to win games in a casual club environment. The only reason I bring up Steve's adepticon list is to demonstrate that the moping due to having a poor model pool is fairly unjustified, because a list that looks extremely close to malarky's collection did perform extremely well at one of the biggest 40kGT's in existence (and also, incidentally, one of the ones that functions the closest to the basic eternal war missions the OP says he plays).
Even in casual games orks with great shooting capabilities will do much better than those just running at your enemy. Your best-of-box-sets primaris army operated by semi-decent general will murder an ork army just running at them, which is pretty much what he has now.
So yes, he has a great collection to start from, but without adding some firepower, I don't see his small number of footslogging orks getting into combat. And by adding firepower he will move towards the kind of list he wants to play anyways.
The difference between where the OP is at now and Steve Pampreen is not the difference between OP's current list and an optimized list where instead of a KFF in mega armor he's got a KFF on a bike, and instead of a warboss on foot in a transport he's got a warboss on bike, and instead of Wartrakks he's got slightly more efficient big shoota deffcoptas. It's how he's playing the models. And that's good! That's what everyone should hope for when making a post like this - that the models you have are decent, you have the tools to approximate the structure of a competitive list, and the primary thing you can do to improve the number of games you win is learning how to play that list.
IMO the difference is that Steve is bringing three smashas and 15 lootas with a grot screen. Being able to destroy one or two anti-infantry units in turn one makes all the difference between getting into combat and dying on the way there.
Sure, that is a difference. And I'm not trying to discount that. But the hyperfocus on the list to the exclusion of all other factors in internet discourse surrounding 40k continues to boggle my mind when people at the local club level continue to make fundamental gameplay mistakes and don't fix them."Never externalize" is a mantra of good professional scenes of any activity I've ever been a part of that involves inherent randomness and imbalance. If you want to get better at something, you have to pretend (yes, pretend, it is definitely not the case) that external factors don't exist). That allows you to isolate the correct choice from the outcome - because if you make decisions that give you a 75% chance of winning and you lose....you still made the right decision. And maybe you made a decision that gave you a 10% chance of winning and you won.
We don't know much about the details of the games OP is playing and losing, but we know enough to see which direction we should go in advice. He references Skarboyz, says Evil Sunz benefit isn't big because it only gives you a couple extra inches of movement, doesn't realize he can Tellyport multiple things, doesn't know what three-pointing is, says Da Jump is bad because it's unreliable since you might fail the cast roll...that's all indicative of a fundamental misunderstanding of how a competitive ork list is supposed to operate.
I can't tell you how many people I play against who are running netlists and don't know how to adapt to even the smallest change in their gameplan. I played against someone with a guilliguns list who had two quad lascannon contemptor dreads as a main source of anti tank, and I hid anything with a vehicle in such a way that they'd have to move to see their targets, just to force a slight reduction in accuracy. My opponent pumped 8 lascannon shots into a chaff unit instead. On turn 2, guilliman just walked out of formation and straight into charge range of some aberrants to kill a Kelermorph - cue complaining about dice rolls the next turn when he died to shooting, got back up, and immediately died to shooting again by failing his first couple invuln save rolls against the aberrants hammers.
On one hand, the conversation about tactics doesn't go anywhere because so much of tactical analysis is covered by the point of view of someone who more often than not just wants commiseration, so tries to paint the scenario as unfairly as possible. List discussion is far easier because we can say "OK, what do you have? This this and this are more efficient than that that and that." And you're right - the way a lot of competitive lists are set up now, he likely would be somewhat more efficient including enough firepower to down an anti-infantry shooting threat before his chargers tried to get their business on.
But on the other, the constant focus on list uber alles creates a truly depressing sense of fatalism among so much of the IRL community of the game that just poisons any and all fun. You can have a club of people with nowhere near tournament level lists, and someone at almost no strategic disadvantage versus the rest of the group complaining because "The internet says melee is unviable".
the_scotsman wrote: You can have a club of people with nowhere near tournament level lists, and someone at almost no strategic disadvantage versus the rest of the group complaining because "The internet says melee is unviable".
Is there a clapping emoticon? There should be a clapping emoticon. Because you earned it here.
Exactly - people are just talking lists and arguing whether stuff is viable or not when the difference between "so OP, must ban" and "so bad, please fix!" is really really small. Yes, a "tourney winning Ork list is all boys or all mech" is a valid opinion, but the OP isn't losing all the time at the local club because everyone there only brings the very best lists in the game, but rather because he likely doesn't understand how you can play better. General Malarky needs to stop failing with the same tactics and start being more cunning. There's a lot of big Orks out there, but Thraka didn't get to be the biggest because he just smashed harder, it's also because he smashed SMART'a! Why else would he keep around Orkimedes?
I don't think melee is unviable. Not in the least. Between avoiding getting shot, locking down hard-hitting units, and avoiding a lot of the -1s around these days, it's really good. But it requires more careful play than shooting, even in casual. And, depending on your opponent's army and what you're charging with, you have to be willing to accept that you're gonna lose models. If you can't or won't strategize about how you go into CC, or can't deal with casualties, you're better off sticking with a ranged army that spends it's time hunkered down in cover.
Melle is kind of a joke how good it is now. You cant walk 6" move melle units up the table. No - that's unviable. When you can Dajump a 30 man unit with almost auto pass regularity with a reroll charge of an 8 - double move shinning spears - or even nob bikers doing the same thing. Melle is an unavoidable thorn in your ass. It's basically autoloss for some armies against these melle gimicks. If basically forces you to bring 400 points of chaff every game to even compete.
the_scotsman wrote: You can have a club of people with nowhere near tournament level lists, and someone at almost no strategic disadvantage versus the rest of the group complaining because "The internet says melee is unviable".
Is there a clapping emoticon? There should be a clapping emoticon. Because you earned it here.
Exactly - people are just talking lists and arguing whether stuff is viable or not when the difference between "so OP, must ban" and "so bad, please fix!" is really really small. Yes, a "tourney winning Ork list is all boys or all mech" is a valid opinion, but the OP isn't losing all the time at the local club because everyone there only brings the very best lists in the game, but rather because he likely doesn't understand how you can play better. General Malarky needs to stop failing with the same tactics and start being more cunning. There's a lot of big Orks out there, but Thraka didn't get to be the biggest because he just smashed harder, it's also because he smashed SMART'a! Why else would he keep around Orkimedes?
I disagree with you both to some extent. Yes, a good list does not make you win games, but a bad list almost certainly makes you lose them.
I have had multiple crushing wins with my Death Guard against many opponents just because they though eight single-shot anti-tank weapons are plenty to stop anything coming their way. Good look trying to stop Mortarion, two PBC, five blightlords, a damon prince and two drones with that. Of course, OP Mortarion is at fault, not the guy bringing knives to a gunfight.
Orks are a very unforgiving army, you have no serious way of mitigating damage, like death guard with their DR, dameons and knights with their invulnerable saves or eldar with their -1 to hit, so your stuff is simply going to die when it is shot at. The only way to prevent that from happening is shooting the dangerous stuff off the board to reduce the damage taken. Failing to do that, no ork army will survive the game unless it brings more bodies than the enemy has bullets, and even then it can be close.
So it's not a question of competitive or not. Any ork army worth anything needs to bring shooting options to take out threats turn one or they are going to be stomped flat into the ground. It doesn't need to be top competitive choices like lootas or mek guns, but at the very least there should be a trukk full of tank bustas, a naut, a burna bommer and a couple of anti-tank buggies in your list somewhere. If you ignore sluggas, shootas and stikkbomms, his entire collection's shooting is basically 16 big shoota equivalent weapons and 13 rokkits - he can't even kill a single rhino out in the open without any protection whatsoever, let a lone a predator, LRBT or a knight. If the opponent just sits there and shoots all of his 1500/2000 points at whatever orks are closest he has a decent chance of winning the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: Melle is kind of a joke how good it is now. You cant walk 6" move melle units up the table. No - that's unviable. When you can Dajump a 30 man unit with almost auto pass regularity with a reroll charge of an 8 - double move shinning spears - or even nob bikers doing the same thing. Melle is an unavoidable thorn in your ass. It's basically autoloss for some armies against these melle gimicks. If basically forces you to bring 400 points of chaff every game to even compete.
Sorry, but did you just seriously compare shining spears to nob bikers?
the_scotsman wrote: You can have a club of people with nowhere near tournament level lists, and someone at almost no strategic disadvantage versus the rest of the group complaining because "The internet says melee is unviable".
Is there a clapping emoticon? There should be a clapping emoticon. Because you earned it here.
Exactly - people are just talking lists and arguing whether stuff is viable or not when the difference between "so OP, must ban" and "so bad, please fix!" is really really small. Yes, a "tourney winning Ork list is all boys or all mech" is a valid opinion, but the OP isn't losing all the time at the local club because everyone there only brings the very best lists in the game, but rather because he likely doesn't understand how you can play better. General Malarky needs to stop failing with the same tactics and start being more cunning. There's a lot of big Orks out there, but Thraka didn't get to be the biggest because he just smashed harder, it's also because he smashed SMART'a! Why else would he keep around Orkimedes?
I disagree with you both to some extent. Yes, a good list does not make you win games, but a bad list almost certainly makes you lose them.
I have had multiple crushing wins with my Death Guard against many opponents just because they though eight single-shot anti-tank weapons are plenty to stop anything coming their way. Good look trying to stop Mortarion, two PBC, five blightlords, a damon prince and two drones with that. Of course, OP Mortarion is at fault, not the guy bringing knives to a gunfight.
Orks are a very unforgiving army, you have no serious way of mitigating damage, like death guard with their DR, dameons and knights with their invulnerable saves or eldar with their -1 to hit, so your stuff is simply going to die when it is shot at. The only way to prevent that from happening is shooting the dangerous stuff off the board to reduce the damage taken. Failing to do that, no ork army will survive the game unless it brings more bodies than the enemy has bullets, and even then it can be close.
So it's not a question of competitive or not. Any ork army worth anything needs to bring shooting options to take out threats turn one or they are going to be stomped flat into the ground. It doesn't need to be top competitive choices like lootas or mek guns, but at the very least there should be a trukk full of tank bustas, a naut, a burna bommer and a couple of anti-tank buggies in your list somewhere. If you ignore sluggas, shootas and stikkbomms, his entire collection's shooting is basically 16 big shoota equivalent weapons and 13 rokkits - he can't even kill a single rhino out in the open without any protection whatsoever, let a lone a predator, LRBT or a knight. If the opponent just sits there and shoots all of his 1500/2000 points at whatever orks are closest he has a decent chance of winning the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: Melle is kind of a joke how good it is now. You cant walk 6" move melle units up the table. No - that's unviable. When you can Dajump a 30 man unit with almost auto pass regularity with a reroll charge of an 8 - double move shinning spears - or even nob bikers doing the same thing. Melle is an unavoidable thorn in your ass. It's basically autoloss for some armies against these melle gimicks. If basically forces you to bring 400 points of chaff every game to even compete.
Sorry, but did you just seriously compare shining spears to nob bikers?
They are similar. Obviously spears are better but in terms of unavoidable CC threats are on turn 1. Nob bikers are on that list. Plus they can fight again - Spears can't do that anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Like between a huge nob biker unit. Da jump a huge unit. Storm boys super move. Orks can assault you with about 50% of their armor turn 1.
At the very least they have forced you to deploy like a bonehead. Orks just have way too many stupid tools to increase their mobility. Plus 5+ invo bubbles in a army that pays only for a 6+ save on the regular and most of their guns have multiple shots to make up for their poor BS so on average they hit about the same as other shooting armies BUT they can also roll like gods and kill way to much for their points.
FOR THE RECORD: I only have a tablet (no PC), so all of your abbreviations are lost on me, as I can not see what they mean.
Was poking through battlescribe's list of Heavy Support, for Orks and happened upon the Big Trakk. I had an old 1:35 Panther Ausf D that now has a Big Zappa on it.
Played a Capture The Relic game today against 1950 points of Space Marines lead by Shrike(?) and got my first real win. It is like all the good luck I had been missing out on decided to show up. I rolled 11 for the Big Zappa's damage two turns in a row and melted a pair of Venerable Dreads. Managed to Da Jump a unit of GRETCHIN in to his back rank and kept them tied up for a turn. My Nobz got a hold of the Relic and beat his Marines over the head with it. He had DS'd Shrike and his other Jump Infantry in to my flank and shot the wrong unit (admittedly wiping my Shoota Boyz, but there was a squad of 30 Boyz in charge range, too) and failed to wipe the squad of 30 in melee (who popped back up on the other side of the board and ate all the fire, saving my Nobz from being plasma'd)
So, yeah, got my first win. Here is the list I had used. I did not Flank or Deep Strike with anything.
Warboss: Attack Squig, Da Killa Klaw, Follow me Ladz!, Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Warlord
Got to squish da puny Shrike wif Da Killa Klaw. Mostly because his rolling with his snipers was ass-tastic.
Weirdboy: 4. Fists of Gork, 5. Da Krunch, Warphead
Da Krunch and Smites on the Scouts all game until a perils (and the subsequent re-roll still dropping a 1, so Perils did go off) kersploeded 'is 'ed.
+ Troops +
Boyz: 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
These Boyz mostly ate wounds, even after Green Tide. But those were wounds not attributed to other units, like my Nobz.
Boyz: 2x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 19x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Protected with Grot Shields and managed to survive to turn 5, as a result.
Boyz . Boss Nob: Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 17x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
Shot their shootas at things, but mostly absorbed wounds.
+ Elites +
Nobz . Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
Grabbed the Relic, after the Gretchin dropped it, and proceeded to beat several shades of gak out of Marines with it. Nearly lost the game, as they were in the opposing deployment zone all alone by the end of turn 5 with some Marines nearby. The dice were in my favour, though.
Painboy: Power Klaw
Succumbed to sniper fire by turn 3, after healing himself back to full twice.
Big Mek in Mega Armour: Kombi-Rokkit, Kustom Force Field, Power Klaw
KFF came in handy, otherwise did not a heck of a lot.
Weirdboy: 3. Da Jump
Remembered to stay in range for bonuses when manifesting Da Jump, this time around!
+ Troops +
Gretchin . 20x Gretchin
Da Jumped on turn 1 (I remembered to keep Boyz around for the bonus on manifesting the power, this time)
Gretchin . 20x Gretchin
Victim of effective use of Grot Shields. Enough survived to capture the Relic the next turn.
Gretchin . 10x Gretchin
More victims of Grot Shields, same turn, same target. There were no survivors.
+ Elites +
Meganobz . Boss Meganob w/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
Mostly rode around in a Trukk, shooting at things with minimal effect.
Tankbustas . 6x Tankbusta: 6x Rokkit Launcha
Rode in the Big Trakk. Did a couple wounds of damage and then melted in a hail of plasma on turn 3.
+ Fast Attack +
Warbikers . Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. 4x Warbiker: 4x Stikkbombs
Expensive wound sponge. I could have positioned them better, but my Shootas unit survived another round, as a result.
Wartrakk (Index) . Wartrakk: Twin Big Shoota
. Wartrakk: Twin Big Shoota
Scooted around and provided covering fire that hit nothing (I do not think more than 1 wound got through +/++, all game. But they looked great doing it! (I think these guys are under-rated as a sort of cheap fast support unit, with their flanking and wounds)
+ Heavy Support +
Big Trakk: Big Zzappa, Grot Riggers, Grot Sponson
+ Dedicated Transport +
Trukk: Big Shoota
Beep! Beep!
I am sticking with Goffs until I get more familiar and comfortable with the rules and all the stats. It is a dirt simple to remember kultur and I do not feel right not playing my list as WYSIWYG. I tried Deathskullz once and may as well have been not running a kultur for how much I remembered to use it.
I like having a bit of variety in my list because I know I get bored easily. At 2000 points I am going to be spread thin, but smaller games will afford me a lot of flexibility in making a list that will be fun to play and play against. It is not only my fun that I am concerned with (and this is not my first mention of such)
I would like to point out there was 1 point from the OP that bothered me. He had mentioned that he didn't want to run his list as Evil sunz because he had mainly infantry and that wasn't indicative of an evil sunz list.
Get over that. If you are losing, then play whatever kultur is going to help you win. It doesn't matter if they are all painted Goffs either, Tell your opponent they are deathskulls this game and use the kultur.
You don't have to be so rigid to the lore that you impact the fun you are having. Most people besides major tournaments don't even fully acknowledge Wysiwyg either. Try stuff out. Say slugga boys are shoota boys for a game.
You need to try things out especially if you want to start earning W's. I say earning because that's what you are gonna have to do with Orks. Theres nothing you can really play with them thats going to make the win come easily.
I'm 100% curious as to what Xeno's local meta must be like if he feels Orkz are too strong. Like, I was gonna argue about how complaining about having to take chaff to protect against melee is as silly as complaining about having to take AT to deal with Heavies, but honestly? I don't know what he's been through. Maybe Orkz are routinely dominating his matches. He'd have very valid complaints then, though I doubt the majority of players would share them. Even the most stringent Ork supporter is only gonna day Orkz are the best Mono Army, and most folks place them outside of the top 3.
flandarz wrote: I'm 100% curious as to what Xeno's local meta must be like if he feels Orkz are too strong. Like, I was gonna argue about how complaining about having to take chaff to protect against melee is as silly as complaining about having to take AT to deal with Heavies, but honestly? I don't know what he's been through. Maybe Orkz are routinely dominating his matches. He'd have very valid complaints then, though I doubt the majority of players would share them. Even the most stringent Ork supporter is only gonna day Orkz are the best Mono Army, and most folks place them outside of the top 3.
Definitely outside top 3. knight/guard soup, GSC and DE are above them. Chaos with the new codex has been doing well too, although not sure if better than Orks. In terms of mono codex, do DE lists and GSC count? I figured they were better mono codices but idk if people are using nids in the GSC.
the_scotsman wrote: You can have a club of people with nowhere near tournament level lists, and someone at almost no strategic disadvantage versus the rest of the group complaining because "The internet says melee is unviable".
Is there a clapping emoticon? There should be a clapping emoticon. Because you earned it here.
Exactly - people are just talking lists and arguing whether stuff is viable or not when the difference between "so OP, must ban" and "so bad, please fix!" is really really small. Yes, a "tourney winning Ork list is all boys or all mech" is a valid opinion, but the OP isn't losing all the time at the local club because everyone there only brings the very best lists in the game, but rather because he likely doesn't understand how you can play better. General Malarky needs to stop failing with the same tactics and start being more cunning. There's a lot of big Orks out there, but Thraka didn't get to be the biggest because he just smashed harder, it's also because he smashed SMART'a! Why else would he keep around Orkimedes?
I disagree with you both to some extent. Yes, a good list does not make you win games, but a bad list almost certainly makes you lose them.
I have had multiple crushing wins with my Death Guard against many opponents just because they though eight single-shot anti-tank weapons are plenty to stop anything coming their way. Good look trying to stop Mortarion, two PBC, five blightlords, a damon prince and two drones with that. Of course, OP Mortarion is at fault, not the guy bringing knives to a gunfight.
Orks are a very unforgiving army, you have no serious way of mitigating damage, like death guard with their DR, dameons and knights with their invulnerable saves or eldar with their -1 to hit, so your stuff is simply going to die when it is shot at. The only way to prevent that from happening is shooting the dangerous stuff off the board to reduce the damage taken. Failing to do that, no ork army will survive the game unless it brings more bodies than the enemy has bullets, and even then it can be close.
So it's not a question of competitive or not. Any ork army worth anything needs to bring shooting options to take out threats turn one or they are going to be stomped flat into the ground. It doesn't need to be top competitive choices like lootas or mek guns, but at the very least there should be a trukk full of tank bustas, a naut, a burna bommer and a couple of anti-tank buggies in your list somewhere. If you ignore sluggas, shootas and stikkbomms, his entire collection's shooting is basically 16 big shoota equivalent weapons and 13 rokkits - he can't even kill a single rhino out in the open without any protection whatsoever, let a lone a predator, LRBT or a knight. If the opponent just sits there and shoots all of his 1500/2000 points at whatever orks are closest he has a decent chance of winning the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: Melle is kind of a joke how good it is now. You cant walk 6" move melle units up the table. No - that's unviable. When you can Dajump a 30 man unit with almost auto pass regularity with a reroll charge of an 8 - double move shinning spears - or even nob bikers doing the same thing. Melle is an unavoidable thorn in your ass. It's basically autoloss for some armies against these melle gimicks. If basically forces you to bring 400 points of chaff every game to even compete.
Sorry, but did you just seriously compare shining spears to nob bikers?
They are similar. Obviously spears are better but in terms of unavoidable CC threats are on turn 1. Nob bikers are on that list. Plus they can fight again - Spears can't do that anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Like between a huge nob biker unit. Da jump a huge unit. Storm boys super move. Orks can assault you with about 50% of their armor turn 1.
At the very least they have forced you to deploy like a bonehead. Orks just have way too many stupid tools to increase their mobility. Plus 5+ invo bubbles in a army that pays only for a 6+ save on the regular and most of their guns have multiple shots to make up for their poor BS so on average they hit about the same as other shooting armies BUT they can also roll like gods and kill way to much for their points.
Xenomancers, just to let you know - Nob Bikers can move again at the end of the shooting phase for 1CP but they can't Charge afterwards and they can't fight twice because they don't have the Infantry keyword. Stormboyz also can't Advance and Charge without a Warboss, they had that Ability in the Index but lost it in the Codex. I agree with you that Orks have a lot of speed and mobility when built for it though, I just wanted to clarify those points.
Jidmah wrote: Sorry, but did you just seriously compare shining spears to nob bikers?
They are similar. Obviously spears are better but in terms of unavoidable CC threats are on turn 1. Nob bikers are on that list. Plus they can fight again - Spears can't do that anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Like between a huge nob biker unit. Da jump a huge unit. Storm boys super move. Orks can assault you with about 50% of their armor turn 1.
At the very least they have forced you to deploy like a bonehead. Orks just have way too many stupid tools to increase their mobility. Plus 5+ invo bubbles in a army that pays only for a 6+ save on the regular and most of their guns have multiple shots to make up for their poor BS so on average they hit about the same as other shooting armies BUT they can also roll like gods and kill way to much for their points.
You might want to actually flip through an ork codex before you go on spouting even more nonsense about how orks work in your imagination.
More than half of the stuff you just wrote in that post is flat out wrong.
Jidmah wrote: Sorry, but did you just seriously compare shining spears to nob bikers?
They are similar. Obviously spears are better but in terms of unavoidable CC threats are on turn 1. Nob bikers are on that list. Plus they can fight again - Spears can't do that anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Like between a huge nob biker unit. Da jump a huge unit. Storm boys super move. Orks can assault you with about 50% of their armor turn 1.
At the very least they have forced you to deploy like a bonehead. Orks just have way too many stupid tools to increase their mobility. Plus 5+ invo bubbles in a army that pays only for a 6+ save on the regular and most of their guns have multiple shots to make up for their poor BS so on average they hit about the same as other shooting armies BUT they can also roll like gods and kill way to much for their points.
You might want to actually flip through an ork codex before you go on spouting even more nonsense about how orks work in your imagination.
More than half of the stuff you just wrote in that post is flat out wrong.
Hes just salty marines aren't generally OPOP like they are supposedly in the fluff, given how much he complains about guard I'm not surprised he's whinging about Orks too.
flandarz wrote: I'm 100% curious as to what Xeno's local meta must be like if he feels Orkz are too strong. Like, I was gonna argue about how complaining about having to take chaff to protect against melee is as silly as complaining about having to take AT to deal with Heavies, but honestly? I don't know what he's been through. Maybe Orkz are routinely dominating his matches. He'd have very valid complaints then, though I doubt the majority of players would share them. Even the most stringent Ork supporter is only gonna day Orkz are the best Mono Army, and most folks place them outside of the top 3.
I think it's a case of smartly applied model count more than any ting else. If Orks are playing a silly SM gunline and just bottle them up and get stuck in the that's that. But that comes more down to the match up and ...lack of experience of the other player, seems to me. I only know 2 of the Ork players that are active in his area haven't ever played them so I can't say much on that but I am sure there are a few more I haven't met I only frequent one of the shops. They seem like really nice ladz though.
You should at least know what you are talking about before complaining.
1) Nob bikers are a terrible, terrible unit that is almost twice as much points per model than shining spears and worse in every possible way. 2) Only ork infantry can fight twice 3) Huge nob biker units charging turn one are a minimum investment of 479 points (10 nobz+warboss) and 3 CP for that stunt, with at least two nob bikers not getting to fight as they need to bridge the gap to the warbosses's aura. Magnus warp-timing himself and crushing a unit of his choice is cheaper (CP and points), does more damage and is more durable. And sees zero play because he is bad. 4) Storm boyz cannot assault after getting their "super move" without a nearby warboss - with the same "super move" being available to space marine bikers, except they don't suffer casualties from it. Nerf please. 5) Ork armor that can pull off any remotely reliable assault turn one would be limited to the deffkilla wartrike and vehicles that somehow managed to keep pace with its 20" move (evil suns relic bonebreaka?). Only one ramming speed per turn makes this strategy more "one armored unit" rather than "50% of their armor". 6) Bubble wrapping is not "deploying like a bonehead", not bubble wrapping is. 7) Right now the most common save characteristic in the ork army 4+, 6+ is limited to boyz, burnas, lootas, tank bustas, gretchin and a few characters 8) Outside of two or three exceptions orks weapons do not have more shots than their imperial or chaos counterparts and usually cost more points and have less range than those.
To sum it up, Xenomancer has obviously not played against any of the things he complains about recently nor watched a game where those were used nor bothered to read up the rules. He has zero right to complain about anything at all.
flandarz wrote: 2 things. First: congrats in your first win. The first of many, I hope. Second: you got a good start going there with the Trakk.
Thanks! I know the unit is not the most cost-effective thing and I really lucked out with my dice rolls, but it was certainly something else to get to be mon the giving end, instead of receiving.
Rolling 11 str is max without wounding myself. Doing that two turns in a row was bonkers.
Needing 6's to hit because of the SM chapter trait causing -1 to hit outside of 12 inches (whichever ones have Shrike, the jump pack guy with lightning claws, I can never remember.) And scoring 2-3 hits in the first turn (after firing with tankbustas who must have gotten a hit or two in) and then scoring four hits on the next Dread in the next turn was just unfathomable luck with a H3 weapon, having rolled three 6's in the initial salvo. We have played several games and my rolling had never been this good. Maybe a few instances of good rolls, but nothing near as consistent as today was. (And then a Weirdboy rolled snake-eyes on turn 5, Cp'd the roll and still got snake eyes, exploding, having rolled a 6(3) for Perils damage and having had only 3 wounds remaining. It was a humorous game)
Doubt it will be like that again for a while. But it is still nice to know I have more than just Tankbustas in a Trukk, for my anti-armour. That said, should I take my 8 tankbustas in the Trukk and take 3 meganobz in the Trakk? Putting 6 Tankbustas in the Trakk is very eggs in one basket, but a good combo of damage, too.
Best passengers for your trakk would probably be nobz, as you can fit enough of them in there to actually make an impact.
Because they move so slowly, MANz are best used by putting them in the tellyporta and drop them where your opponent does not have the means to handle them quickly - either onto into his backfield to take out a lon-range unit or onto and objective where they clear out his troops and keep it to themselves.
You're definitely improving. Some of your success might have been luck, but while luck will help, it can't make up for bad tactics and bad lists. Congratulations on the win and on the growth that is definitely there!
I'm a competitive player who owns guard, marines, and knights, and have been flattened at tournaments by Orks. There's nothing wrong with Orks. You need practice, and you need to keep an open mind and look for what isn't working to actually learn.
Agreed, you need to play fairer missions. Maelstrom of war will solve most of your problems. Watch your opponent realize HE has to charge up the board to hold objectives early and can't just wait until you're dead. Then if your opponents complain, offer to switch to something like ITC tournament missions (available online for free) that are designed by competitive players to be fair.
I want to run through a thought experiment with you.
Suppose you're playing against a marine player who brings a a tactical squad and a devastator squad. Where do you focus your firepower?
Duh, you target the devastators. Devastators die just as easily as tactical marines but do more damage. If your opponent runs their tacs and their devs side by side they're doing it wrong. They need to try to force you to target the tacticals, for example by putting them on objectives or moving them up so you can't reach the devastators and putting the devastators in cover. A good list makes the choice harder. Eldar do it by defending their more valuable targets with psychic powers.
Your original list wasn't doing any of those things. Your opponent was free to target your most valuable units. You could defend one valuable unit with grot shields, but then they can just switch to targeting other valuable units, so by the time you reached them, all you had was boyz, and you might as well have brought less specialists and more boyz because they die equally easily but you could have brought more boyz. That's why you felt like you were down to 500 points vs. 2000 enemy points - they could shoot your most valuable stuff first.
This game is ALL about target priority: shooting at the right stuff, and making it hard for your opponent to do so. I used to do it by running all infantry. My opponent would literally be targeting lascannons at guardsmen. Imperial knights do it the opposite way, by making their opponents' anti-infantry guns worthless.
So how can you do that? Your first thought was transports. The problem is that this doesn't actually protect your specialist squads so well because any opponent worth their salt has brought SOME long range anti-tank weaponry. Enough to kill a trukk or two. If you had 6 trukks your opponent would have trouble picking a target and couldn't stop them all, but you only brought 2. This let your opponent use their lascannons or missile launchers or whatever in worthwhile ways. Not bringing any tanks basically would have made their anti-tank guns a waste of points, and BOOM, you're fielding 2000 points while they're effectively fielding just 1800 or even less.
Solution: Tellyportas and grot shields. Grot shields can only protect one squad, so you should start with only one specialist squad on the board, and the rest in tellyportas.
Jidmah wrote: Sorry, but did you just seriously compare shining spears to nob bikers?
They are similar. Obviously spears are better but in terms of unavoidable CC threats are on turn 1. Nob bikers are on that list. Plus they can fight again - Spears can't do that anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Like between a huge nob biker unit. Da jump a huge unit. Storm boys super move. Orks can assault you with about 50% of their armor turn 1.
At the very least they have forced you to deploy like a bonehead. Orks just have way too many stupid tools to increase their mobility. Plus 5+ invo bubbles in a army that pays only for a 6+ save on the regular and most of their guns have multiple shots to make up for their poor BS so on average they hit about the same as other shooting armies BUT they can also roll like gods and kill way to much for their points.
You might want to actually flip through an ork codex before you go on spouting even more nonsense about how orks work in your imagination.
More than half of the stuff you just wrote in that post is flat out wrong.
Why would you make such a claim like...half of everything I said was wrong. Without saying what is actually wrong. In fact - every single thing I mentioned is true.
Jidmah wrote: You should at least know what you are talking about before complaining.
1) Nob bikers are a terrible, terrible unit that is almost twice as much points per model than shining spears and worse in every possible way.
2) Only ork infantry can fight twice
3) Huge nob biker units charging turn one are a minimum investment of 479 points (10 nobz+warboss) and 3 CP for that stunt, with at least two nob bikers not getting to fight as they need to bridge the gap to the warbosses's aura. Magnus warp-timing himself and crushing a unit of his choice is cheaper (CP and points), does more damage and is more durable. And sees zero play because he is bad.
4) Storm boyz cannot assault after getting their "super move" without a nearby warboss - with the same "super move" being available to space marine bikers, except they don't suffer casualties from it. Nerf please.
5) Ork armor that can pull off any remotely reliable assault turn one would be limited to the deffkilla wartrike and vehicles that somehow managed to keep pace with its 20" move (evil suns relic bonebreaka?). Only one ramming speed per turn makes this strategy more "one armored unit" rather than "50% of their armor".
6) Bubble wrapping is not "deploying like a bonehead", not bubble wrapping is.
7) Right now the most common save characteristic in the ork army 4+, 6+ is limited to boyz, burnas, lootas, tank bustas, gretchin and a few characters
8) Outside of two or three exceptions orks weapons do not have more shots than their imperial or chaos counterparts and usually cost more points and have less range than those.
To sum it up, Xenomancer has obviously not played against any of the things he complains about recently nor watched a game where those were used nor bothered to read up the rules. He has zero right to complain about anything at all.
Lol, I mean if he can't even catch that from the thread, there's definitely no way Xenomancer actually ever bothered to read through the Ork codex in any meaningful way.
I know. I was being facetious. I kinda think it might be a common issue here though. Especially in YMDC, I see a lot of folks answering the OP question days after it was already answered. So, I figure he just clicked "quote" and replied without reading the rest of the thread.
flandarz wrote: I know. I was being facetious. I kinda think it might be a common issue here though. Especially in YMDC, I see a lot of folks answering the OP question days after it was already answered. So, I figure he just clicked "quote" and replied without reading the rest of the thread.
Ah, my bad. Hard to pick up tone sometimes through text. That's probably what happened. Either way, this has certainly opened my eyes as far as the limitations of the Goffs Kultur is. I read a previous suggestion from another thread that they should have swapped the Goff WL trait (the part with -1AP when you are charged, you charged or heroically intervene) with the normal trait. Would you think it makes goffs more viable then? It would give boyz and stormboyz squads some much needed teeth in melee against tougher targets while also making big chops nobz especially dangerous. It would even make things like gorkanauts more dangerous since when you choose the smash option you make it more effective against enemy armour.
As in a -1 AP and +1 Attack bubble around the Warlord (only usable after being charged, having charged, or performing a HI)? I think that *would* go a long way towards making Goff more competitive... I dunno how it'd stack up against the other Traits though, nor if it would be worth giving up more reliable charges, or better shooting. On the other hand, depending on the unit the Warlord is buffing, it could also end up being very unbalanced. Like bringing in a group or two of BC Nobz and you could probably tear through an enemy army extremely quickly. Combined with Warpath and you got 5 S7, AP-2, D2 attacks, multiplied by the number of Nobz you got, and hitting on 3s, with exploding 6s. Hell, use it with some Double Saw MANz (with Warpath) and you got 6 S10, AP-5, D2 attacks, multiplied by the number of MANz, hitting on 4s with exploding 6s. That's moving into "one shot a Knighr" territory right there, and that's before you start accounting for Ghaz (or whatever Warlord you got).
Yeah, I think that might be a bit much, if I'm being honest. And, to be fair, I don't think Goff is really "bad" anyway. It just doesn't bring enough to the table to compete with the Big 3 Kulturz (Evil Sunz, Deathskullz, and Bad Moonz). But it's still better (in my opinion) than Snakebitez and Blood Axez. Worse than Freebooterz, though probably not by much.
flandarz wrote: As in a -1 AP and +1 Attack bubble around the Warlord (only usable after being charged, having charged, or performing a HI)? I think that *would* go a long way towards making Goff more competitive... I dunno how it'd stack up against the other Traits though, nor if it would be worth giving up more reliable charges, or better shooting. On the other hand, depending on the unit the Warlord is buffing, it could also end up being very unbalanced. Like bringing in a group or two of BC Nobz and you could probably tear through an enemy army extremely quickly. Combined with Warpath and you got 5 S7, AP-2, D2 attacks, multiplied by the number of Nobz you got, and hitting on 3s, with exploding 6s. Hell, use it with some Double Saw MANz (with Warpath) and you got 6 S10, AP-5, D2 attacks, multiplied by the number of MANz, hitting on 4s with exploding 6s. That's moving into "one shot a Knighr" territory right there, and that's before you start accounting for Ghaz (or whatever Warlord you got).
Yeah, I think that might be a bit much, if I'm being honest. And, to be fair, I don't think Goff is really "bad" anyway. It just doesn't bring enough to the table to compete with the Big 3 Kulturz (Evil Sunz, Deathskullz, and Bad Moonz). But it's still better (in my opinion) than Snakebitez and Blood Axez. Worse than Freebooterz, though probably not by much.
I worded it badly since I was using my phone at the time, but I originally meant that the new Goff WL trait would be 6's to hit explode alongside giving +1 Attack, while the baseline Goff Kultur would be giving Goff units -1 AP to their melee weapons in the turn they charged, were charged, or heroically intervene, rather than 6's exploding in CC. It's mainly to make Goffs the "definitive" CC kultur trait, in the same way that Evil Sunz are the ones that the fastest, the Bad Moonz the shootiest (generally), and Deffskullz the most reliable/lucky.
I think it'd make Greentides a lot more threatening. Not sure how much good it would do for other styles of lists, though. The bigger things generally aren't hurting for AP in CC. Might work alright for mobile armies, but I think those usually benefit more from Evil Sunz anyway. I *do* agree that it would cement Goffs as the "melee army", though. It'd certainly be better than the pretty much useless exploding 6s. Any unit that could make decent use of that Kultur Trait isn't hurting for attacks anyway.
flandarz wrote: I think it'd make Greentides a lot more threatening. Not sure how much good it would do for other styles of lists, though. The bigger things generally aren't hurting for AP in CC. Might work alright for mobile armies, but I think those usually benefit more from Evil Sunz anyway. I *do* agree that it would cement Goffs as the "melee army", though. It'd certainly be better than the pretty much useless exploding 6s. Any unit that could make decent use of that Kultur Trait isn't hurting for attacks anyway.
While it definitely would benefit green tides the most (which is at least fluffy since it typically is an iconic army archetype for Goffs), there are several instances where it would benefit non-green tide armies. It would give some CC oriented units like the Gorkanaut some extra oomph, since it means you can use its Smash attacks (the ones that do 3 attacks instead of 1 for each attack you have on your profile) without compromising too much on AP, especially against vehicle/monster targets. Some of the buggies CC (Skrapjet and the ones with Buzzsaws) would actually be decent in clearing chaff with the additional AP clearing through any armour they might have. Burna boyz suck atm, but if they ever price or errata them right at some point, having a full squad with power swords wouldn't be terrible. It also makes Power Stabba Nobz decent anti-infantry against armoured units as well. Ofc, it won't fully compete against the current top tier of the holy trinity of Kulturs but it at least makes them more interesting to take. That's currently the issue with Goffs, Snakebitez and Blood Axes, their Kulturs don't add much and their stratagems are too situational to really build an army around.
General Malarky wrote: What do you say? Does this qualify as (at least the starting of) a Big Trakk with Big Zappa?
(Sorry about the potato)
Looks good. I would encourage you to try it out as a Bonebreaka at some point too you take that, put your nobz and warboss in it, pop it under the KFF turn 1 with your trukk and trakks, watch it mulch everything you throw it at.
General Malarky wrote: Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?
Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.
Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.
Most ork lists doing well in tournaments are those who just shoot their enemies to bits with lootas, planes and/or mek guns. They have about as many close combat elements in their lists as your average eldar, chaos or imperial army.
Yep. More bodies that can be shot is pretty hard to accomplish when armies can shoot 60 models in a turn without too much trouble. I have had 119 model go poof in one turn. 8th ed is not about weathering firepower but having bigger alpha strike than the other. Succesful orks blow enemy apart. Not weather firepower. Nothing in 8th ed really survives well.
General Malarky wrote: Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?
Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.
Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.
Most ork lists doing well in tournaments are those who just shoot their enemies to bits with lootas, planes and/or mek guns. They have about as many close combat elements in their lists as your average eldar, chaos or imperial army.
Yep. More bodies that can be shot is pretty hard to accomplish when armies can shoot 60 models in a turn without too much trouble. I have had 119 model go poof in one turn. 8th ed is not about weathering firepower but having bigger alpha strike than the other. Succesful orks blow enemy apart. Not weather firepower. Nothing in 8th ed really survives well.
Yeah, that seems like a fairly rare situation. Accounting for standard BS, and the chances to fail Wound, pass Save, and possible "overkill" shots, that'd be like 400 attacks or more.
General Malarky wrote: Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?
Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.
Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.
Most ork lists doing well in tournaments are those who just shoot their enemies to bits with lootas, planes and/or mek guns. They have about as many close combat elements in their lists as your average eldar, chaos or imperial army.
Yep. More bodies that can be shot is pretty hard to accomplish when armies can shoot 60 models in a turn without too much trouble. I have had 119 model go poof in one turn. 8th ed is not about weathering firepower but having bigger alpha strike than the other. Succesful orks blow enemy apart. Not weather firepower. Nothing in 8th ed really survives well.
Can you provide a list that does that?
Because tourney lists have to handle Knights too.
Competitive Tau lists typically feature a flying <removed> of fire warriors, Riptides, and support elements like firesight marksmen and fireblades to increase firepower, relying on a couple alpha striking commanders to provide anti tank spot removal.
I think in most cases they shoot everything but the knight and just weather the firepower while they win on objectives if they're up against Guard+Knight or Admech+Knight lists.
flandarz wrote: Yeah, that seems like a fairly rare situation. Accounting for standard BS, and the chances to fail Wound, pass Save, and possible "overkill" shots, that'd be like 400 attacks or more.
Last game i played i had slightly above 100 infantry orks (no gretchins, just boyz and meganobs). Dark eldar wiped them out in 2 rounds with witches, an exploding tantalus, venoms and disintigrators.
I've had similar experience vs imperial guard (vultures and punishers). I dont think just relying on massed bodies to survive is that viable.
General Malarky wrote: Are Orks doing so well in tournaments because people show up with green carpets with more wounds than can be shot out in a game, as well as drawing out the game's duration to prevent subsequent turns from happening while also controlling points by sheer volume that the opponent cannot even hope to compete?
Cos that sounds like what they are supposed to be doing and that is dirty fething pool.
Also, it would invalidate them being considered "a strong force" because they are ruining the fun of the game in exchange for an easy win.
Most ork lists doing well in tournaments are those who just shoot their enemies to bits with lootas, planes and/or mek guns. They have about as many close combat elements in their lists as your average eldar, chaos or imperial army.
Yep. More bodies that can be shot is pretty hard to accomplish when armies can shoot 60 models in a turn without too much trouble. I have had 119 model go poof in one turn. 8th ed is not about weathering firepower but having bigger alpha strike than the other. Succesful orks blow enemy apart. Not weather firepower. Nothing in 8th ed really survives well.
Top-Placing ork list can be found at the end of that post, if you do some research, you can probably find more.
Lootas+SAGs+smashas are plenty to handle knights, some run Wazzbomm blastajets instead of either lootas or mek guns, as it's basically three mek guns on a plane.
Over 2 turns I can see it. The argument was that 119 models were slain in a single turn. That why I said his situation was probably an outlier. But I agree, you need to also be able to reduce your casualties through slaying enemy units. 6 Boy Mobz would be 180 models and cost you 1260 pts. Between them, and whatever support you can bring for an addition 740 pts, I would assume you'd be able to reduce your enemy forces enough, over the course of the game, to "survive on massed bodies". Especially if you can manage to pull off EGT and bring a nearly dead Boy Mob back. That's effectively over 200 Boyz.
Can we please take a moment and compare some things?
What are the saves on a standard Space Marine, no fancyauras or upgrades purchased?
Ork Boyz (in fact, most of the army) have just a 6+ armour save (easily negated by half of the opponent's, or more)
Full squad of Space Marines (I assume) is $50 for 10 Marines.
11 Boyz costs $40, multiply that by 3, to make a full squad, for $120.
How many Boyz am I expected to lose on turns 1 and 2, to an average amount of shooting? How much money did that cost me? Meanwhile, the vast majority of my opponents have good saves. I COMPREHEND THAT A HORDE LIST WILL, YES, LOSE MODELS, but the way that games tend to go, it is just me removing model after model with little to show for it. So it really feels like a waste of time and money and effort (again, I want close matched games, not wins)
I think I have a point, but my brain is too cluttered this morning to get things out in proper order and I am getting frustrated and upset.
This ain't the place to be getting in to non-40k things, so I'll spare you further ranting.
No one said GW was fair with its prices. But, atleast the Boyz cost about 4 bucks a model. A single Mek Gun (which includes the 6 Grot Krew) is 46 bucks, meaning each model is costing you a little less than 6 bucks. A single Wazbom is 56 bucks. And that's just on the Ork side of things. I'm certain other Factions have similar "these are fething expensive" issues as well. However, Orkz (in general) require more models than a lot of other Factions. Kinda the nature of the beast on this one. You might wanna consider checking on eBay for some secondhand models.
Orks cost about twice what they did when I started collecting I want to say there were either 16 or 20 boyz in a box back then.
If you are just looking for boys to fill the ranks look for the Assault On Black Reach set or Battle for Vedros which use the same models for the most part. They are nearly mono pose but do the job of filling the ranks. You can probably find those on Ebay, used or new.
What are the saves on a standard Space Marine, no fancyauras or upgrades purchased?
Ork Boyz (in fact, most of the army) have just a 6+ armour save (easily negated by half of the opponent's, or more)
Full squad of Space Marines (I assume) is $50 for 10 Marines.
11 Boyz costs $40, multiply that by 3, to make a full squad, for $120.
How many Boyz am I expected to lose on turns 1 and 2, to an average amount of shooting? How much money did that cost me? Meanwhile, the vast majority of my opponents have good saves. I COMPREHEND THAT A HORDE LIST WILL, YES, LOSE MODELS, but the way that games tend to go, it is just me removing model after model with little to show for it. So it really feels like a waste of time and money and effort (again, I want close matched games, not wins)
I think I have a point, but my brain is too cluttered this morning to get things out in proper order and I am getting frustrated and upset.
This ain't the place to be getting in to non-40k things, so I'll spare you further ranting.
GW pricing for horde armies has always been rough, and Orks are no exception. Ebay as mentioned is your friend for getting the bulk of your boyz for a reasonable cost. Also, I dont think comparisons to basic marines are very good since, if you haven't noticed, they haven't exactly taken the world by storm. Tactical marine equivalents have been deplored by a significant amount of their player base as both too easy to kill and doing too little damage for their cost, since high AP weaponry is so prevalent and bolters/special weapons not doing enough to offset their lack of significant defense. You need to learn how to mitigate your losses based on what your opponent has and plan accordingly, it doesn't matter if half of your boyz are dead if the rest make it into combat and prevent any further shooting. The core part of that is threat saturation so no matter what your opponent does they have sub optimal responses. If you keep playing reactively then you will be on the back foot and allow your opponent to dictate the pace of the game.
Watch battle reports with Orks, heck have a game against OTHER orks. You may be able to pick up things you missed and if you lose against Orks you really cant complain about the faction itself.
So, hilariously, 50$ actually gets you MORE points of orks than it gets you points of naked space marines (your point of comparison here)
50$ for 10 marines: 130pts.
50$ for 20 snapfit boyz: 140 points.
It is helpful that in the comparison of "what is the competitive build for this unit?" the competitive build for ork boyz...is the snapfit kit. Just naked choppa boyz.
if there's still an easy to build tactical squad fair enough (I think they used to sell the old aobr sculpts for the marines too but I don't see them with a quick googling). But yes in general the higher points something is in the game, the lower the monetary cost per point will be because at the end of the day it's a game with plastic models.
Nearly all guns in the game remove more points of space marines than they do points of orks though.
Here's the thing about the Ork box that is great information for most beginners. If you buy 3 boxes. You make 1 Nob. Then you make a rokkit boy. The 2nd box you use the kit to make 9 boys and 1 rokkit boy, then use the NOB parts with the slugga/choppa option (not sure how it works with the shootas) as another boy. Do the same for the 3rd box. So 3 boxes got you a full 30 man squad and 3 rokkit launchas.
Now if you start making more squads you are essentially building up your tank busta unit and don't have to buy the tank bustas box. you get 3 rokkit boys per fully built unit. So after 6 boxes of boys you essentially could have a 6 man tankbusta unit.
Or you use the extra Nob bits to build up and start a Nob squad. Your choice but we do get a little extra utility out of our boxes. But yes overall they are still pricy.
flandarz wrote: Over 2 turns I can see it. The argument was that 119 models were slain in a single turn. That why I said his situation was probably an outlier. But I agree, you need to also be able to reduce your casualties through slaying enemy units. 6 Boy Mobz would be 180 models and cost you 1260 pts. Between them, and whatever support you can bring for an addition 740 pts, I would assume you'd be able to reduce your enemy forces enough, over the course of the game, to "survive on massed bodies". Especially if you can manage to pull off EGT and bring a nearly dead Boy Mob back. That's effectively over 200 Boyz.
There are some theoretical setups that can actually kill that much (like renegade knights with dual gatlings), but they don't see much play currently. In general, armies need to divide their points between chaff/cp generation, force multipliers, anti-tank and anti-horde. Unless someone goes full anti-horde losing 100+ models turn one should be a case of severe bad luck.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mhalko1 wrote: Here's the thing about the Ork box that is great information for most beginners. If you buy 3 boxes. You make 1 Nob. Then you make a rokkit boy. The 2nd box you use the kit to make 9 boys and 1 rokkit boy, then use the NOB parts with the slugga/choppa option (not sure how it works with the shootas) as another boy. Do the same for the 3rd box. So 3 boxes got you a full 30 man squad and 3 rokkit launchas.
Now if you start making more squads you are essentially building up your tank busta unit and don't have to buy the tank bustas box. you get 3 rokkit boys per fully built unit. So after 6 boxes of boys you essentially could have a 6 man tankbusta unit.
Or you use the extra Nob bits to build up and start a Nob squad. Your choice but we do get a little extra utility out of our boxes. But yes overall they are still pricy.
The box has 11 pairs of legs and 12 boyz torsos, there is no need to use nobz for anything but that. While no longer a good unit, the nobz toros were the best source of bits to build nob bikers, as they are almost identical to the nob inside the warbiker box. Warbiker torsos also look rad for evil suns boyz.
In general, if you are looking for extra boyz (or tank bustas or kommandoz), you need more legs, as you'll be drowning in torsos, heads and arms of all kind sooner or later. The only boxes which really have extras are the rear gunners from the battlewagon, runtherds from the gretchin box and the spannas from the lootaz/burna box.
Make sure you save all rokkits from the boyz and lootas/burnas box so you can build your own unit of tank bustas. Kommandos can be build by combining commando-ish looking heads (burna boyz, jet pilots) with the big shoota backpack from the boyz box. Unless you want to have the models because of aesthetic reasons, don't waste money on buying what's essentially boyz with some extra bits tacked on.
So basically, any ork box that is made of plastic is using the same torsos and legs, so you can exchange parts between them freely. They big exception are storm boyz, their torsos work differntly, but their arms and heads fit other models. Most vehicle crew (planes, trukks, battlewagons) also can be mixed in, not sure about the new buggies though.
As for the big guys - a box of flash gits combined with a box of nobz allows you to build 10 flash gits - the bits from their box fit the nobz perfectly and the nobz box is almost half the flash gits box. Nobz also fit on the bikes from the warbiker box, if you feel like doing that.
Lastly, if you want any of the character models, I heavily suggest hunting down metal versions on ebay. The finecast versions can be heavily flawed up to a degree where the model cannot be used or even built - especially the Waaagh! Banner often comes in a terrible shape and it's a lot of trouble to keep sending it back until you get a good version, as stores have become reluctant to just exchange those models.
If I had the means of resin-casting, I would be using that extra torso from every box. As it is, I am now buying boxes just for the legs. I have a box's worth (11. That means 11) of Boyz waiting for legs and an extra 5 Nobz who need legs.
It is pissing me off, that GW pulls gak like this, still. Their product is most assuredly going to sell. But if they keep fething their customer base over, it will start looking elsewhere for product.
General Malarky wrote: If I had the means of resin-casting, I would be using that extra torso from every box. As it is, I am now buying boxes just for the legs. I have a box's worth (11. That means 11) of Boyz waiting for legs and an extra 5 Nobz who need legs.
It is pissing me off, that GW pulls gak like this, still. Their product is most assuredly going to sell. But if they keep fething their customer base over, it will start looking elsewhere for product.
Bugger. I am all upset, now.
You are upset for the wrong reason though. The boyz box is supposed to build into 10 boyz, everything else is just extra bits to customize your unit or add a squad leader.
General Malarky wrote: If I had the means of resin-casting, I would be using that extra torso from every box. As it is, I am now buying boxes just for the legs. I have a box's worth (11. That means 11) of Boyz waiting for legs and an extra 5 Nobz who need legs.
It is pissing me off, that GW pulls gak like this, still. Their product is most assuredly going to sell. But if they keep fething their customer base over, it will start looking elsewhere for product.
Bugger. I am all upset, now.
I would recommend a Bitz seller to you but the one I always use is out of legs for boys and I also don't know who is a good seller for your region. But I do recommend looking for a bitz seller on ebay that you can trust.
There are a lot of sellers that sell loads of second hand mini's at very reasonable prices. Another thing to think about is saving up to buy someones collection as these do come up second hand and some times at a low price. You can always sell off what ever you don't want from that. Just do a search for "Warhammer 40K Ork army" and see what comes up.
I just did an there is a fair amount up there.
Ork legs are not such a problem - cut one pair in half, and add an 'L' shaped length of sprue to to fill in the missing part on each half.
Then, either add a small amount of putty to the hips to recreate the trousers, and gubbins to the sprue for a 'Bionic leg'; or add plates to the sprue and fill in with putty for an 'Armoured leg'.
General Malarky wrote: If I had the means of resin-casting, I would be using that extra torso from every box. As it is, I am now buying boxes just for the legs. I have a box's worth (11. That means 11) of Boyz waiting for legs and an extra 5 Nobz who need legs.
It is pissing me off, that GW pulls gak like this, still. Their product is most assuredly going to sell. But if they keep fething their customer base over, it will start looking elsewhere for product.
Bugger. I am all upset, now.
I would recommend a Bitz seller to you but the one I always use is out of legs for boys and I also don't know who is a good seller for your region. But I do recommend looking for a bitz seller on ebay that you can trust.
There are a lot of sellers that sell loads of second hand mini's at very reasonable prices. Another thing to think about is saving up to buy someones collection as these do come up second hand and some times at a low price. You can always sell off what ever you don't want from that. Just do a search for "Warhammer 40K Ork army" and see what comes up.
I just did an there is a fair amount up there.
You could have it worse, 1 reaper chaincannon / 5 Havocs in a box.
Guess which weapon is absolutely usefull atm for csm
But Yeah the 11 torso thing is annoying...
GW nickle and diming i am afraid and don't belive they will change.
Not Online!!! wrote: But Yeah the 11 torso thing is annoying...
GW nickle and diming i am afraid and don't belive they will change.
Okay, that's not a reason to complain. I definitely agree GW charges ridiculous prices, but it's a box of 10 Boyz. So long as you can build 10 Boyz, that's truth in advertising. Extra bits are not something to be mad about.
Not Online!!! wrote: You could have it worse, 1 reaper chaincannon / 5 Havocs in a box.
Guess which weapon is absolutely usefull atm for csm
A friend was very excited about them for his army. I found those on the ebays as well. Some one is casting just those bitz. Which if you have the shape mold stuff that's been out for a few years you could do as well with some green stuff.
Blue stuff from greenstuffworld (confusing I know) is quite handy for casting small parts, legs should be doable. And it's remouldable if you want to cast something else.
There's also quite a few third party company's selling ork legs due to the fact most of us do end up with spare torsos. (don't let GW know or they'll remove them)
if you are only going to use specific GW kits for units then yes, if willing to convert other used GW models then not nearly as much. If willing to go nonGW then even less.
a ork boyz box has the arms for 10 slugga/choppa boyz, 10 shoota boyz, 1 rokkit boy, 1 big shoota, 1 nob, and a few more bits liek tank busta bomb. It has 11 bodies and legs in the box.
you can make your own bodies using "reusable clay molding" (also known as blue stuff for the branded stuff) to make ork body molds and filling with kneadite or other epoxy to make the extra bodies. they if done right will be indistinguishable from official GW ones. (note this is also 100% illegal to sell once completed so if doing i would separate only say shoota boyz for this and if ever selling the army throw these in the bin)
you can also find files on thingiverse for ork bodies and legs that you cna print on an inexpensive 3d printer or have printed for you for a lot less than a GW ork box set. note this is more expensive than molding but likely looks better and as it is a free stl and not an exact copy of GW body it is legal even to sell later (just do not try to pass as GW official have to say GW arms and maybe heads on custom bodies)
final option is ebay and buy just the ork bodies, they are cheaper than a whole box but this is the most expensive alternative. also its much more difficult to find the legs than torsos, but keep an eye out and maybe grab as available here.
other models like the mek gunz buy 1 box of mek guns and you can buy a trukk box and have the bitz to make 4 mek guns if done right.
With the success (and fun building it) I have been having with that Big Trakk conversion, there is a good chance the other old model kitz will be getting converted. Any more GW purchases will be for basic Boyz or kits for bitz conversion. I could really use a Waaagh! banner carrier and the Getting Started kit will afford me many wonderful options for conversion.
I will be asking around my local club for someone who could do resin casting for the extra Boyz legs.
It is an expensive unit (200~ points after modifications) but it tends to pack a decent punch and draw a lot of fire off of the rest of my army. Deploy it directly behind my KFF Big Mek (the model is over 7" long, but under 9" , so I picture the Big Mek hanging off the dozer blade) and plop my tankbustas in front of him and I have a decnt, multi-target/wound, 5++, anti-armour doom fist. Plop some Gretchin along the front of all that and there is another layer of protection.
Here is an updated photo of the conversion: (the gunner's seat has the big red button for the big zappa, too)
Keep in mind the definition of "Wholly Within" is "At least part of every model in the unit is within" (This is from the Designers Commentary FAQ I believe)
So if you are a single-model unit, like say, a really big tank, ANY part of that model being within 9" of the Big Mek makes it "wholly Within".
Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly
within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is
within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so
long as any part of the unit/model is within.
Ahh the "wholly within" confusion...
Note that the faqs also change deployment to "entirely within" (enirely and wholly are synonyms) . So if that thing works as every model is partially within for auras then the same goes for deployment zones. Enjoy the turn one charging sideways forward deployed knights.
I love that the gw clarification does not help one bit in the issue
the_scotsman wrote:Keep in mind the definition of "Wholly Within" is "At least part of every model in the unit is within" (This is from the Designers Commentary FAQ I believe)
So if you are a single-model unit, like say, a really big tank, ANY part of that model being within 9" of the Big Mek makes it "wholly Within".
The last FAQ clarified that "wholly within" actually means that every part of every model must be within 9" - making KFF pretty useless for battlewagons.
General Malarky wrote:See, that is why I am leaning towards playing the game "Rules as Written"; keeping track of all the errata is maddening.
" which version of the rules are we playing, today? "
The rules as written would mean that you have no clue what "wholly within" means...
In general it's a good practice to just use the most recent rules all the time - GW makes big updates only twice a year.
The definition of "wholly within" from the FAQ is not some wierd 40k-specific use of the phrase as jargon, it's just what those two words mean. I can understand confusion over "within", but "wholly within" doesn't seem to admit any ambiguity to me.
Except previously GW defined "wholly within" as "every model in a unit is within the model".
As "within" is a defined term, it meant that models didn't need to be wholly within the KFF to work, just that every single model would have to have some part within the KFF.
In general, the English language has never been a useful tool to understand GW's rules, quite the opposite. In any case, such terms need to be properly defined in any game, if they are not, it's just bad writing - it's perfectly normal for terms to have different meanings in games than they have in the real world. For example, in MtG, purple is not a color, but black and white are.
Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly
within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is
within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so
long as any part of the unit/model is within.
EDIT: Sorry, no, you are correct, additional clarification appears to have been added in the latest FAQ that clarifies my previous reading was incorrect.
Wholly within does mean "All parts of all models are wholly within".
Ugh... Kicking myself over not noticing this, earlier... I feel guilty for having used them, now...
War Trakks and the Big Trakk do not have Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!
That... I know I have not been the most positive about Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!, as an ability, but not havimg it still hurts. I do not want to be using them, anymore, in case I forget to not use Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!, like a cheating piece of gak.
Kick to the nuts? They DO get it, technically, but only in melee, because I play Goffs...
General Malarky wrote: Ugh... Kicking myself over not noticing this, earlier... I feel guilty for having used them, now...
War Trakks and the Big Trakk do not have Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!
That... I know I have not been the most positive about Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!, as an ability, but not havimg it still hurts. I do not want to be using them, anymore, in case I forget to not use Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!, like a cheating piece of gak.
Kick to the nuts? They DO get it, technically, but only in melee, because I play Goffs...
Not gonna lie, it's a lot harder to take you seriously or give you advice when you keep flip-flopping to being overly dramatic and negative when there's the slightest bit of things not going your way.
Though if you want me to shoot you, can I shoot you out of a cannon? Seems like the right proper orky way to do it.
A) Keeping track of all the information and FAQs has been an uphill battle. It is something I will have to do and will take time but there are.how many books that have had how many FAQs? I did not even think to check if there even were an FAQ for IAX. It makes learning the game really difficult when one needs how many books? The rule book, codex, Index (as an ork player), vigilus, chapter approved (which years?), Imperial armour and then all the pdfs of FAQs. feth.
B) When it comes.to dealing with the wild mood swings; it ain't much easier, from this side of things, either. I wish I was not like this. Quitting smoking (tobacco and marijuana) has not been helping this situation, either. People seem to think I enjoy being like this... Why? Why would anyone enjoy having wild mood swings that cause nothing but trouble? Medication has not helped. Counselling has not helped.
C) So long as it gets me off this planet, sure, fire me from a canon!
General Malarky wrote: A) Keeping track of all the information and FAQs has been an uphill battle. It is something I will have to do and will take time but there are.how many books that have had how many FAQs? I did not even think to check if there even were an FAQ for IAX. It makes learning the game really difficult when one needs how many books? The rule book, codex, Index (as an ork player), vigilus, chapter approved (which years?), Imperial armour and then all the pdfs of FAQs. feth.
Codex Latest CA Vigilus Defiant because you want the SSAG Index Xenos 2 if you are running index models Imperial Armour Xenos if are running FW models
It's really simple - for every book, there is a FAQ, which usually get's updated in fall and spring. At the end of the year, there will be a Chapter Approved book mostly replacing the one from the year before.
Note that if this is too much for you, you should give battlescribe a shot - you can print army lists with all necessary rules from there.
General Malarky wrote: A) Keeping track of all the information and FAQs has been an uphill battle. It is something I will have to do and will take time but there are.how many books that have had how many FAQs? I did not even think to check if there even were an FAQ for IAX. It makes learning the game really difficult when one needs how many books? The rule book, codex, Index (as an ork player), vigilus, chapter approved (which years?), Imperial armour and then all the pdfs of FAQs. feth.
Codex
Latest CA Vigilus Defiant because you want the SSAG
Index Xenos 2 if you are running index models
Imperial Armour Xenos if are running FW models
It's really simple - for every book, there is a FAQ, which usually get's updated in fall and spring. At the end of the year, there will be a Chapter Approved book mostly replacing the one from the year before.
Note that if this is too much for you, you should give battlescribe a shot - you can print army lists with all necessary rules from there.
also ntoe it is not a lto of pages in said books for weapons profiles etc related to ork models. personally I made copies of pages with stratagems, relics unit costs, rules etc. and just have that for each of my armies in small binders. it is a lot less intimidating/mentally easier to think "oh its just that little bound notebook of rules to keep track of for my army.
Hey Malarky!
Hell yeah getting a win in! I read some of the thread but apologies if I miss anything
Keep reading your rules, even when you think you already know your codex in and out. Read all your opponents rules even when you think you know them.
Most importantly, get games in and keep a realistic view on your dice. I really liked that you mentioned that you were really lucky rolling strength 11. Those are the kind of things that are good to keep in mind.
If you really want to improve quickly, it takes a lot of work. Writing down what worked and what didn't every game and realizing if it was you or the model/dice.
In your local meta there are likely a few experienced really good players that always win. Play those people and get your face smashed in. ORKS ALWAYS WIN EVEN WHEN WE LOSE. I also suggest playing with different point levels to equalize skill. I love playing newer players when they have 2500 points and I have 2k. It's better practice for both of us and lets us have fun. You also get to play with more toys!
Lastly, never forget how much orks are. They really are the best.
And come about November they'll put out another 
: And that guy sucks and so on. 
you take that, put your nobz and warboss in it, pop it under the 
