Still struggling with Orks in 8th (not so much, anymore)

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**Cheeslord**

Spoletta wrote:

Finishing first deploying units has nothing to do with going first or second. Are you using the most updated rules?
.

Oh. They changed it again? Anyone know how it works now??

Mark.

**flandarz**

Alternatively, if you want to surprise your opponent, take more armor (Gork, Mork, Mekadread, DeffDread, etc.) And drop the Boyz and other infantry (except for Grots, you need those for CP, and the SSAG and Weirdboyz, for HQ slots). You'd be surprised by how many people hear you say "I'm playing Orkz" and assume you'll be bringing primarily infantry. Or maybe you won't be.

But yeah. What Goofy described is what I call "theming". The current meta favors having both AT and Anti-Infantry attack options, but sticking to either one or the other for survivability. Most lists will be about 50/50 on the AT and Anti-Infantry front, but closer to 80-90% of the list will be either Armor or Infantry. When you make a list that's "well-rounded", you're giving your opponent prime targets for all of their attacks, rather than only about half of them.

**Spoletta**

Cheeslord wrote:
Spoletta wrote:

Finishing first deploying units has nothing to do with going first or second. Are you using the most updated rules?
.

Oh. They changed it again? Anyone know how it works now??

Mark.

Roll to decide who deploys first.
First player deploys his full army, then the opponent does the same. Yes, he can perform a full counterdeploy, it's intended.

Then the player who finished deploying first (which is the player who deployed first his army, barring some particular deployment special rules), has the first turn.
Roll for Seize as usual.

This way you already know who is going to go first and who is going second while deploying, which limits the impact of alpha strikes a lot.
The games that get decided on turn 1 are those were 2 players deploy offensively hoping for fist turn, and the losing players gets decimated.

Between counterdeploy, knowing in advance who will go first, the constant threat of a seize and the Prepared Position stratagem, the alpha strike is now much less of a problem.

It should also be noted that in the new missions you never score at the end of your turn (so jumping on an objective is useless). You either score at the start of your next turn or at the end of the round, giving yet another advantage to the player going second.

Note: This is valid only for CA18 missions. ITC and previous 40K mission packets follow the old system.

**G00fySmiley**

flandarz wrote:
Alternatively, if you want to surprise your opponent, take more armor (Gork, Mork, Mekadread, DeffDread, etc.) And drop the Boyz and other infantry (except for Grots, you need those for CP, and the SSAG and Weirdboyz, for HQ slots). You'd be surprised by how many people hear you say "I'm playing Orkz" and assume you'll be bringing primarily infantry. Or maybe you won't be.

But yeah. What Goofy described is what I call "theming". The current meta favors having both AT and Anti-Infantry attack options, but sticking to either one or the other for survivability. Most lists will be about 50/50 on the AT and Anti-Infantry front, but closer to 80-90% of the list will be either Armor or Infantry. When you make a list that's "well-rounded", you're giving your opponent prime targets for all of their attacks, rather than only about half of them.

yea, I just suggested the simplest with his models, but themed lists all the way, orks do pay more than a lot of armies for what we get when you math it out. but we get so much of it that it kinds balances it out when saturating.

My personal go to list is
badmoonz

Wazboom jet w/ kff
2x dakka jets w/ 6 super shootas

deffskulls

defkilla wartrike
warboss on bike w/ killa klaw
shokjump dragsta
scrapjet
kustom boosta blasta

3x10 gretchin
3 mek gunz w/ kustom mega kannon
1x traktor kannon

goffs

boss Zag (deep strikes in)
big mek w/ relic SSAG

gorkanaught

inside gorkanaught 5x 4 nobz dual choppa boss nob big choppa
nob w/ waagh banner
painboy

gunlien in back, bubble wrap with grots,

most anti infantry shots gets wasted while i concentrate on things that can actually hurt my vehicles. invalidating 40-60% of most lists.

**Kap'n Krump**

Honestly, I feel your pain. I always want to bring a nice list with a bunch of boyz and nobz, but this is the shootiest edition in a long line of shooty editions. And as you noted, falling back is the most broken mechanic to ever be introduced into 40k, at least in my experience.

Some thoughts from me:

I really like tankbustas, but like lootas, they struggle with durability. If you haven't been, definitely reserve CP for grot shield for them, and also get a full squad if you can.

I also am not a fan of rokkit pistols - too short range, less strong, and the ability to use them in CC is garbage as tanksbustas must ALWAYS avoid CC.

Drop the warbuggies and warbikers. They're just bad. Some of the new buggies are good - the scrapjet and dragsta especially shine.

Why do you have 20 strong grot units? Maybe one for a little extra durability for grot shield - other than that take min squads for objective grabbing.

I love deff dreads, even though they are not the best unit. Though, a unit of 3 tellyporting in is surprisingly effective.

In truth, your list isn't a bad one, though it isn't terribly competitive. It's a very fluffy list. Are you playing similarly minded players, or are they min/maxxing guard/knight armies or guilliman + assback spams or dark eldar or whatnot?

Like, the best way I can put this is your list is like bringing a terminator-heavy space marine army. It's iconic, and fluffy, but not very good. And that's not a bad thing provided your opponents are also bringing fluffy lists.

**the_scotsman**

tneva82 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I'm gonna be super blunt: You are blaming the edition for your losses when you have a list that would be horrendous in pretty much any edition of the game I've played. And i've played 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th.

Honestly your list (with Evil Sunz kultur) would be best in 8th, because a da jump charge with your 30x boyz might catch someone by surprise..

Uuh hopefully you have better reason for claiming list would be best in 8th ed than opponent might be surprised.that trick is old as 8th ed so only new players will be surprised. Basing plan on opponent being surprised by staple of orks whole 8th ed is risky

My overall point is: A list that tries to do a green tide, but also has a small contingent of walkers, but also has a small contingent of fast moving anti-infantry shooters, but also has footslogging models with the same defensive profile as ork boyz, but also has 1 or 2 unsupported vehicle targets, is going to be fighting an uphill battle in any edition.

I'm not trying to make a value judgement about this person or how smart/dumb/whatever they are, they're doing that and I think it speaks to them being in a somewhat low emotional state at the moment. If you're calling yourself a big dumb stupidhead who can't learn anything you're not in a mental place to figure out how to fix what you're doing wrong.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

General Malarky wrote:
Can I use Tellyporta more than once? I thought there were restrictions on using the sqme strategem multiple times in a phase?

I am going to avoid 2000 points battles because they stretch me too "thin" and smaller battles will allow me to take only Boyz and Gretchin, achieving that green tide effect.

If I buy anything more, it will be another "getting started with Orks" kit, for the dread and painboy. I have already spent over $1000 on this hot-mess and I should not have spent so much. Feels so good knowing I have wasted so much money.

Why take snakebite if I have Painboyz? Why are Goffs even a thing?

What is "3-point"?

I am such a .stupid feth-stain, thinking table top games that have been aeound for decades might have figured out how to do their jobs.

I do not know which of you to listen to and which of you are just donkey-caves.

As always; I am wasting everyone's time and subjecting more and more people to my horsegak problems. Stupid feth.

Don't make any other purchases until you know which direction you actually want to take your army.

Right now you have a list that seems to mostly go towards a green tide, but you seem to hate the playstyle of waiting around for your models to get over to your opponent while you take it on the chin.

That's what playing orks as a pure horde army is - other than lobbing your biggest unit of ork boyz at your opponent's forces each turn with Da Jump and hopefully Warpath on them, anyway.

If you hate that, don't listen to the internet hivemind - there are more than one way to play orks.

People act like the internet instantly figures out everything and tournament players just go to the top tables based on whatever magical algorithm the wisdom of the interwebz came up with .0003 seconds after the rules for the models are leaked.

When the codex was released, "everyone knew" that nobody would take an ork boy again, boyz would only ever be useful for flinging one 30-blob in the oppoonets face turn 1, green tide got its knees knocked off by nerfhammers, everyone would spam trakktor kannons and they were the most OP things ever.

Oh wait, tournament results have people bringing Loota Bombs? Ok, loota bombs are the only way to play orks, they're a gatekeeper mid-tier army at best, mono-build only the loota bomb is useful, no other builds exist, PERIOD. The internet has FIGURED IT OUT.

Oh wait, tournament results have a variety of different builds? Green Tide lists, Deffskullz lists, and Bad Moonz lists are succeeding?

My point is, people hyperfocus on whatever top-tier tournament build is performing right now, and act like unless they copy exactly that they can't succeed and any time they lose or have different models than the competitive build, they're doomed.

That's just not true. Most people (it sounds like you included) play WAYYYYYYYYYYYY more casually than actual competitive tournaments, and most of the time (from your list, you included) extremely glaring errors in both list build and tactics that can be improved and they're not actually hopeless, it just feels better to have something to blame your losses on.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Strategically: Your list lacks a focus, and lacking a focus means introducing a weakness. If I take a standard list against yours, I have extremely effective targets to shoot all my weapons at, right off the bat. I have 2W models to shoot autocannons/plasma guns/whatever to insta-kill them, I have vehicle models to shoot lascannons at, and I have light infantry to shoot lasguns/whatever at.

On top of that, you've got a bunch of stuff that moves different speeds. If I just stood there and let you attack me, the boyz with da jump get there turn 1, the nobz with the trukk arrive turn 2, and the footsloggers don't get to attack until turn 3 or 4 (deff dread, other boyz squad, meganobz). That means I instantly also know what's the most important targets to handle, if say I go first before you (Kill the boyz, kill the trukk).

You also have several units (Trakks, gretchin) that I know I don't have to target at all because they don't contribute to the melee lockdown that your army wants to do.

Tactically: You CAN have elements that are mixed in your list but you should use tabletop tactics to lessen that as much as possible. For example, let's look at your Meganobz and Deff Dread/Dreads. These two units will never hit at the same time as your trukk nobz because they'll be walking much slower. So we can instead use Tellyporta to make sure they're making a charge roll turn 2, and make sure my opponent's lascannons/plasma/whatever have one less good target turn 1.

Three pointing is a method that can be used to prevent models from falling back. After making a charge move you get to make two 3" moves before, and after attacking. If you get three of your models surrounding one of your opponent's models, because of how circles work geometrically you've stopped that one model from getting out from in between your models.

That means unless they have fly, they cannot Fall Back.

**morganfreeman**

Yarium wrote:
There is a lot - I repeat a LOT - of depth to close combat. It's really tricky to get right, and requires some tricky tactics, an awareness of the game state and objectives, and knowing where you want to be. Here's some fantastic tricks:

THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE OF CLOSE COMBAT:
"With rare exception, never put your models in base to base contact with the enemy."

The reason for this is that so long as your models aren't in base to base contact, you can use the rules to gain extra movement for your models by ensuring they end closer to your opponent's models than before, even if that move takes them on a merry-go-round path closer, meaning that in actuality you gained almost all that extra distance just by piling in and consolidating. Most of the tricky tactics listed below will require this extra movement. The only time you DO want to be in base to base contact with the enemy is to deny your opponent the chance to do the exact same thing.

#1 - "Pinning" units;
- Requirements; an enemy model can be surrounded on 3 sides after you're done your attacks.
- Action: When you're done making your attacks, if you have 3 models that can surround an enemy model on three sides (forming an equilateral triangle), you can "pin" your opponent's model there. That model can now not leave combat, because any move they take would be through your models, which they're not allowed to do (unless they can jump over them with Fly or the like).
- Result: Your super powered close combat unit now is 100% safe from shooting. So long as you kill your opponent's unit in their turn, you're just laughing.
- Countering: If you keep your models close enough together such that enemy models can't surround them, then any path that is as big as at least one of your models can allow the whole unit to escape. Generally you need a line of models that are 2 ranks deep. A very savvy general can try to purposefully fail their morale test by enough so that they can remove the pinned models from the unit in order to escape.

#2 - Pile into units that you won't be fighting.
- Requirements: A second nearby enemy unit, and enough models that you will be able to maintain squad coherency.
- Action: When declaring the targets of a charge, purposefully don't declare a second unit as your target, but send models towards them anyways. Your intention at the very least should be to "tag" the unit such that the unit won't be able to shoot when they leave combat, whilst you take minimal retaliatory attacks, but it's amazing when you can achieve Tactic #1 and pin that unit. Since you didn't declare them as a charge, you can't attack them (though you must still pile in and consolidate towards them - remember, that's 6 extra inches of movement if you don't touch their bases!), and they can still attack you - but you're guaranteed to not accidentally kill the model that you're trying to pin.
- Countering: Again, make sure your units can't be pinned. If there's a lot of space between your units, your opponent will have to lose a lot of potential attacks in order to maintain squad coherency to spread out so far between units. This is also where having a nearby character that can Heroically Intervene is especially useful to help scare off these types of assaults.

#3 - Activate units that charged, even if they don't have anyone to fight.
- Requirements: A unit that charged that hasn't fought yet (or, spend the 3CP stratagem to "fight again"), but that already has the target of their charge slain.
- Action: Activate the unit. Use your pile in and consolidate moves to get closer to somewhere better. You get 3" pile in, and 3" consolidate. Try to pin or tag another unit like this, grab an objective, or get into cover. Sometimes you might do it just to put another unit in front of a character you put somewhere vulnerable, so now the character can't be targeted by shooting.
- Result: Almost as good as gaining an additional movement phase. Never hurts to play like old school Ynnari!
- Countering: Keep your units far enough away from each other so they don't walk into you afterwards.

#4 - Charges are extra movement.
- Requirements: A large unit of models that will likely make a charge.
- Action: When you charge the unit, you only need to successfully reach at least one model in at least one unit that you declared a charge against, and keep squad coherency. So take advantage of that! Chain up your models so that while, sure, some models get in range to attack an enemy target, the rest might choose to head in the LITERALLY EXACT OPPOSITE DIRECTION.
Result: Just out of range of an objective with a big squad, but there's an enemy nearby behind you? Don't advance! Charge those suckers after moving! Now the back end of the squad charges towards the objective, and you grab it!
- Countering: Keep a character near where your opponent wants to go so you can heroically intervene if they get too close. Use this to bully your opponent away from zones.

#5 - Heroic Intervention for Bullies.
- Requirements: A unit and a character.
- Action: Put your character behind a model that's the closest one to your opponent's unit.
- Result: If your opponent declares a charge and doesn't roll high enough, they will either have to end their charge within 3" of the character and trigger Heroic Intervention, or they will have to give up their charge.
- Countering: Declare the opponent's character as part of the charge, and end your charge at the edge of the 1" of the target unit. If they want to heroically intervene, they'll have to bring their character closer to you and out of position, and you'll be able to threaten attacks against them too. If you roll high enough just circle around the front and end your charge on a unit's flank outside 3" of the opposing character.

#6 - Charge around corners.
- Requirements: A unit that wants to charge, and a big LoS blocking terrain piece.
- Action: Move your unit such that it is not visible to the unit you want to declare a charge against. You can still declare charges against units that you can't see.
- Result: You won't suffer Overwatch. Great for avoiding auto-hit shooting if your opponent puts their units in the wrong spots. You can even use this to go for extremely difficult charges (10-12" away) just to see if you get there with no real risk, though in this case, always consider advancing if you can instead.
- Countering: Keep your auto-hitting units in locations where potential chargers will have to end within LoS of you before they charge for a safe charge.

#7 - Don't shoot units that you intend to charge.
- Requirements: A unit that you want to charge with, and other shooters within shooting range of that target.
- Action: DON'T shoot that unit! Shoot something else!
- Result: You want to avoid your opponent choosing models that are closer to you. If they kill those models, it increases your charge range, and makes it less likely to get in there.
- Countering: Not much. If the unit that they wish to charge is badly placed, that might trick your opponent into making this mistake, but it sounds like a lose-lose proposition to intentionally put such a unit in that position in the first place.

I think that's most of the big ones. If anyone else has some good tips, let this guy know!

God damn. I'm going to have to re-familiarize myself with how most of these scenarios are possible.

**Yarium**

morganfreeman wrote:
God damn. I'm going to have to re-familiarize myself with how most of these scenarios are possible.

Thankfully, these are all extremely easy to understand! The crux of it is that piling in and consolidating only happen for units that can fight, and units that can fight need to only check one of the following two requirements:

i - The unit successfully charged.
ii - The unit is within 1" of an enemy unit.

That's it. You fulfill either of those requirements, and you can activate during the Fight phase. When you activate, you get to pile in, and at the end of the activation, you consolidate. Everything else is just logically applying the rules, and you're honestly not even stretching, twisting, or lawyering the rules to do these things. #1 happens because, without Fly, you can't move through models, even during Fall Back. So you just set it up that the person can't break the rules to do the thing they would normally want to do. #2 happens because, well, that's what the rules say to do when you reach a unit that you didn't declare a charge against. Of course, both #1 and #2 matter for nothing if the target has Fly or is something like a Knight that you surrounded with Infantry that you can just walk over (although, it's neat to remember that they can't walk over Bikes! Go Atalans!) #3 is literally what you do with a unit that charged, so just, you know, do that, but smartly. #4 is realizing that the rules don't say what you THINK they say; and mostly players that don't get this are ones that played older editions where ALL the models had to charge forward. Even then, there were "chains" that existed, especially with Tyranids and Synapse (who remembers Hormagaunt leashes?). #5, #6, and #7 are again, just applying rules that people tend to forget exist. Heroic Intervention rarely actually triggers, but still has a major effect because of the THREAT of its ability to trigger. You don't always have a chance to charge around a corner, especially because good players don't put themselves into that situation. Players sometimes also forget that models take up physical space, and so by removing models, you're opening up space (#7).

**mhalko1**

It really does come down to list building for the Orks. You cannot take whatever you want and expect to do well. But you can build around multiple focus points for what you want to do.

Your list for instance has 1 deff dread. Those 8 wounds are easily removed. But if you swapped units so that you could take 3 and put them in the tellyporta then they are likely to make combat. Additionally you could try taking shoota boys and out shooting your opponents gunlines. I have had some success using a gorkanaut and shoota boys to counter horde lists. Double shooting (special detachment) with More Dakka really helps wipe large units. 36 shots from the main gun, 24 shots from twin big shootas, 4 rokkits, 2d6 scorcha shots.

**p5freak**

I dont play orks, but if i would, i would go with 9 smasha guns, its 31 pts for one. I find them hilariously undercosted for what they do. Its 48" range, D3 shots, hitting on 4s, wounding if 2D6 is equal or higher than toughness, AP-4 and D6 damage. Run them as deathskulls, and you get one re-roll to hit, and one re-roll to damage, for every gun. Thats 18 re-rolls, for free

**Xenomancers**

p5freak wrote:
I dont play orks, but if i would, i would go with 9 smasha guns, its 31 pts for one. I find them hilariously undercosted for what they do. Its 48" range, D3 shots, hitting on 4s, wounding if 2D6 is equal or higher than toughness, AP-4 and D6 damage. Run them as deathskulls, and you get one re-roll to hit, and one re-roll to damage, for every gun. Thats 18 re-rolls, for free

They are hilariously OP. They don't get army traits. They do get Dakka Dakka though.

If anyone is struggling with orks I'd just say you are wasting points on bad units or are playing the army fundamentally wrong at this point. Orks are top tier.

**p5freak**

Xenomancers wrote:

They are hilariously OP. They don't get army traits. They do get Dakka Dakka though.

Oh, sorry, i thought they would get a clan kultur.

**mhalko1**

p5freak wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

They are hilariously OP. They don't get army traits. They do get Dakka Dakka though.

Oh, sorry, i thought they would get a clan kultur.

They have the gretchen keyword so they don't get kultur.

But Additionally for a player who is already complaining about the cost of Orks. Smashas are not the way to go. US $46.00 for 1. or $414.00 unless you kitbash.

**flandarz**

With the prices GW puts out for some of these units, it's starting to feel like they DON'T want you to buy their models.

**mhalko1**

flandarz wrote:
With the prices GW puts out for some of these units, it's starting to feel like they DON'T want you to buy their models.

They WANT you to buy them at that price and like it.

Mek gunz one of the worst price to unit cost ratio. $46 for 31 pts. gross. Honestly they should come in a box of max unit size. and apply a 25% discount. 172.5 for 5 mek gunz. bundle and save kind of deal. I would have bought it right away. I think I bought 1. got gifted 1 then kitbashed my 3rd.

**flandarz**

Man, I just did a quick look on Amazon, and it was kinda ridiculous. Like, I can buy fully articulated action figures for the price per model they're asking. And I don't have to paint those. Probably cheaper, in the long run, to just get a 3D printer and make your own. Especially with Factions like Orkz which are, by necessity, model heavy.

**Elbows**

Why would you ever look on Amazon for 40K stuff? It's nothing but price-botted nonsense.

**mhalko1**

Elbows wrote:
Why would you ever look on Amazon for 40K stuff? It's nothing but price-botted nonsense.

You can occasionally get cheaper models there but it all depends.

**p5freak**

There are so many gun models, i would simply proxy 9 smasha guns.

**flandarz**

It was the fastest way to do a "quick check" on prices.

**ccs**

mhalko1 wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

They are hilariously OP. They don't get army traits. They do get Dakka Dakka though.

Oh, sorry, i thought they would get a clan kultur.

They have the gretchen keyword so they don't get kultur.

But Additionally for a player who is already complaining about the cost of Orks. Smashas are not the way to go. US $46.00 for 1. or $414.00 unless you kitbash.

Yeah. Why anyone not playing in an environment that demands only GW/current GW pieces would ever spend $ on more than maybe 1 gun baffles me. (unless their excuse is "I really LIKE the model. In that case....)
You're playing orks. So build like an ork - grab a basket of random junk & parts and make your own gunz.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

flandarz wrote:
Yeah, it looks like you're focused on CC presence to the exclusion of any sort of ranged ability. This can work if the map you play on has enough LOS-blocking terrain, but since you said you're getting shot to oblivion in Turn 1, I'm guessing there's not a lot of places to hide for you. With so little good ranged options, you're gonna suffer. In fact, against a list with a large Flyer population, you're pretty much guaranteed a loss. You're gonna want more ranged units.

Alternatively, consider pushing more into a "greentide" list. Your three units of Boyz can and will be massacred, but 150-180 Boyz will probably be too much for your opponent to effectively deal with. You definitely need a Kultur for your detachments are well. For CC focused, I'd recommend Evil Sunz, for more reliable charges.

There's not a lot of places to hide 90 Orks, period.

Anyway, you might need to learn how to take units hostage, That will help you out. Basically, after the enemy removes casualties, conduct your consolidate such that there is one enemy model surrounded by your models [he can't fall back through them]. You have tons of boyz, and should have tons left over after your first fight phase. A key trick to this is not to touch the opponent directly during your charge and pile in, so that your consolidate ends closer to the enemy model. Make sure that unit doesn't rout [so take many prisoners, or take something of value or something that can't rout prisoner], and your unit is untouchable to shooting.

In addition, you should be using your pile in and consolidate to just poke as many units as you feel comfortable being attacked by [for example, a Leman Russ or Dreadnought probably won't be a serious threat to you in melee, but a squad of Death Company might want to be avoided], so that those units won't be able to charge or shoot on their turn.

As a final note, going all-in on Melee or all-in on Shooting isn't super great. At some point, there's diminising returns. Orks have really good shooting units too, take some of them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

General Malarky wrote:fething HELL!?!? IS THE RULEBOOK NOT feth! fething!

So now I have not even bought the right books... feth me, eh?

Spoletta wrote:
General Malarky wrote:
We normally just roll for Eternal War missions. Simple and casual.

Which eternal war missions? The ones from the rulebook? Because those are famous for being hugely stacked against melee armies.

Not really; but they are stacked against armies not designed to kills the s*** out of the enemy.

Melee works fine in them, and it's actually pretty good; even if you're not a force reknown for it's melee units.

However, it's less stacked for aggressive melee armies than other missions, since there's no bonus for early center occupation. This edition has massively increased the general power of close combat; specifically fast skirmishers and light high-volume-of-attacks troops [like boyz]; though heavy melee really sucks.

**Argive**

More boys, da jump, wrap and trap.

tractor gunz + lootas would give you decent firepower.
But more boys... there just isn't enough dice to deal with all the boys at certain point.

Also, are you playing the same guy every time?
Also, as mentioned CA 2018 missions are good as you can play the mission swamp objectives and win that way. .
Also, watch some bat reps for inspiration?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgT03EzFF-I

- Orks vs Crimson fists.

**the_scotsman**

mhalko1 wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

They are hilariously OP. They don't get army traits. They do get Dakka Dakka though.

Oh, sorry, i thought they would get a clan kultur.

They have the gretchen keyword so they don't get kultur.

But Additionally for a player who is already complaining about the cost of Orks. Smashas are not the way to go. US $46.00 for 1. or $414.00 unless you kitbash.

well sure, but on the other hand you get a ton of extra gun bits when you buy ork kits that are about the right size. Deff Dreads, Battlewagons, Gork/Morkanauts etc and you just take those and make up some cannon looking jiggers and say "here's my smasha guns".

from a gameplay perspective I do find smashas to be overhyped by the internet hivemind, probably because their damage output and usefulness can be expressed by pure hypothetical math. On the tabletop they do good damage but typically don't impact the outcome of the game very much in most missions.

**G00fySmiley**

Argive wrote:
More boys, da jump, wrap and trap.

tractor gunz + lootas would give you decent firepower.
But more boys... there just isn't enough dice to deal with all the boys at certain point.

Also, are you playing the same guy every time?
Also, as mentioned CA 2018 missions are good as you can play the mission swamp objectives and win that way. .
Also, watch some bat reps for inspiration?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgT03EzFF-I

- Orks vs Crimson fists.

lootas have been nerfed significantly from launch. they use to be great is you pumped a lot of CP into them but now most of what made them good does not apply. they can no longer be mobbed up and their roll for number of shots has to be rerolled when using the stratagem to shoot again. the old way was mob them up for 25 lootas, roll for number of shots, if it is a 1 reroll with cp, then hope for number of shots to be 2 or 3. then you have 50 or 75 loota shots. use dakka dakka dakka so they can always hit on 5's and 6's and 5's and 6's get extra shots. then use strat to shoot that same number of shots a second time.

really what GW should do it make lootas like flamer units and roll a d3 for each member of the unit(alternatively make the gun a heavy 2 gun and that also solves the issue). the problem now is they are too swingy to be competative.

as for the big gunz... yea buy a mek gun kit and a trukk kit and you cna effectively make 4 mek gunz. alternatively it is orks so buy some cheap artilary toy models and roll em around in the bits box to make them orky. alternative alternative do what I have done, buy some various turrets from other armies on ebay to loot, pathfinder drones, thundefire cannons, eldar weapons platforms, heavy weapons teams etc. bonus points to buy old rhinos and other armies vehicles, hacksaw them up and use a soldering iron to have burnt/melted areas and turn them into scrap mek guns.

**wallygator**

mhalko1 wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

They are hilariously OP. They don't get army traits. They do get Dakka Dakka though.

Oh, sorry, i thought they would get a clan kultur.

They have the gretchen keyword so they don't get kultur.

But Additionally for a player who is already complaining about the cost of Orks. Smashas are not the way to go. US $46.00 for 1. or $414.00 unless you kitbash.

I'm not sure about this. quote codex "units comprised entirely of gretchin cannot benefit from any clan kultur. in addition, ork stratagems can only be used on these units if the stratagem explicitly states so."
and mek gun has keywords "vehicle, artillery, gretchin, mek gunz.
So mek gun is not " entirely comprised of gretchin" as there is a "vehicle, artillery type" model in the unit.

to conclude: in my opinion, mek gunz do benefit from clan kulturs

**flandarz**

You have the read the remainder of the Mek Gun entry. "Grot Krew: Each Mek Gun and its grot krew are treated as a single model for all rules purposes." Which includes the "composed entirely of Gretchin". Because all of these models will share their keywords.

**wallygator**

**flandarz**

As an aside, I understand that the rule is thematic, but I don't really care for it myself. Were Gretchin units so powerful that you had to deny them access to Kultur and Stratagems? The most powerful combo I could come up with would be a Deathskullz Traktor Gun that gets to reroll wound, and damage. Pretty good, but certainly not broken.

**the_scotsman**

flandarz wrote:
As an aside, I understand that the rule is thematic, but I don't really care for it myself. Were Gretchin units so powerful that you had to deny them access to Kultur and Stratagems? The most powerful combo I could come up with would be a Deathskullz Traktor Gun that gets to reroll wound, and damage. Pretty good, but certainly not broken.

If you could get gretchins with 6++/6+FNP traits I don't see why I'd ever take boyz. And mek gunz would be extremely powerful with traits as well. The killa kanz are the only unit I feel aren't really useful.