I'm copy-pasting directly from the latest version of the 40k rulebook errata:
Page 177 – Movement Phase
Add the following text to the end of the Movement phase section: ‘Aircraft
If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move characteristic (or if it has a damage table on its datasheet that includes any minimum Move characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).’
I'm aware that the intent of the rule is to prevent flyers from blocking the movement of enemy units and it may be that the bit of the above paragraph that I'm about to reproduce may just refer to units moving over units with the AIRCRAFT keyword but... and I'm quoting:
"whenever a model makes any kind of move... and it cannot end the move within 1" of enemy units"
To me, that says that you can't use pile-ins / consolidations or heroic interventions to get within an inch of a model that has the AIRCRAFT keyword. You would still be able to charge them because the AIRBORNE ability provides an exception to this rule.
The reason I'm concerned about this rule interpretation is that the new white scars supplement has a warlord trait called master of snares that works the same as the drukhari wyches ability "no escape" but, unlike it, it affects all unit types, not just infantry. The ability could definitely be used by a white scars smash captain to charge an aircraft and auto-explode it on the following turn if the aircraft fails to fall back but, could a captain on a bike use it as well for exploding aircrafts? I mean, is this model allowed to get within an inch of an aircraft using pile-ins / consolidations or heroic interventions?
Yes, they do... but do they provide an exception to the AIRCRAFT rule? I reckon they may not need to because AIRCRAFT has been included in the movement phase section but... same applies to FLY... and FLY affects both the movement and the charge phase... same could happen here, since the rule states "any movement", it could very well apply to all phases. On top of it, the unit meeting the requirements gains the AIRCRAFT rule not for the movement phase alone but for the entirety of the game
eparedes0785 wrote: I'm copy-pasting directly from the latest version of the 40k rulebook errata:
Page 177 – Movement Phase
Add the following text to the end of the Movement phase section: ‘Aircraft
If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move characteristic (or if it has a damage table on its datasheet that includes any minimum Move characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).’
I'm aware that the intent of the rule is to prevent flyers from blocking the movement of enemy units and it may be that the bit of the above paragraph that I'm about to reproduce may just refer to units moving over units with the AIRCRAFT keyword but... and I'm quoting:
"whenever a model makes any kind of move... and it cannot end the move within 1" of enemy units"
To me, that says that you can't use pile-ins / consolidations or heroic interventions to get within an inch of a model that has the AIRCRAFT keyword. You would still be able to charge them because the AIRBORNE ability provides an exception to this rule.
The reason I'm concerned about this rule interpretation is that the new white scars supplement has a warlord trait called master of snares that works the same as the drukhari wyches ability "no escape" but, unlike it, it affects all unit types, not just infantry. The ability could definitely be used by a white scars smash captain to charge an aircraft and auto-explode it on the following turn if the aircraft fails to fall back but, could a captain on a bike use it as well for exploding aircrafts? I mean, is this model allowed to get within an inch of an aircraft using pile-ins / consolidations or heroic interventions?
Yes, it may. Like BCB said, different rules for different phases.
Does the Master of Snares mention Falling Back? If so, if the AIRCRAFT is not making a Fall Back move, per the quote you used, then no, it wouldn't I suppose. But, if the ability refers to any unit within 1 inch moving away, then yes, it would likely affect the AIRCRAFT.
Airborne- This model cannot charge, and can only be charged and attacked in the fight phase by units with the Fly keyword.
I don't see how that matters. You have been piled/consolidated into, pulling you into combat. You're not being charged or attacked. Therefore you're locked in combat.
Yes you can pile in consolidate into an AIRCRAFT and with master of snares it cannot fallback. When the aircraft can't hover it can't fallback, which means it can't make its minimum move, and it's destroyed.
p5freak wrote: Yes you can pile in consolidate into an AIRCRAFT and with master of snares it cannot fallback. When the aircraft can't hover it can't fallback, which means it can't make its minimum move, and it's destroyed.
BRBFAQ wrote:Page 177 – Movement Phase
Add the following text to the end of the Movement
phase section:
‘Aircraft
If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move
characteristic (or if it has a damage table on
its datasheet that includes any minimum Move
characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be
moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be
moved across such models (and their bases) as if they
were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of
another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move
within 1" of any enemy units.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement
phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are
Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not
have to Fall Back in order to move).’
You don't even need to consolidate to get within 1" - But between Aircraft, and Airborne, you're going to be hard pressed to make the case they're locked in combat. You can't fight it, it can't fight you, it doesn't even count as within 1" for denying movement. All you really did was make me point out my flyers are on scenic flying stands, not bases, and you're not within 1" of the hull, until they make a That Guy rule clarification that this 1" window they gave ground troops also counts for the flyers vs non-flying ground troops.
Additionally, I'd point out the Pile In is a move, and the Aircraft rule prohibits any and all movement that ENDS within 1" of an AIRCRAFT.
Repeated for emphasis/isolation:
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be
moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be
moved across such models (and their bases) as if they
were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of
another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move
within 1" of any enemy units.
Emphasis mine.
If you try and pile into my Aircraft, I'm going to point out you just made an illegal move. You can't pile into Aircraft by the wording of the Aircraft rule, and technically, you can't even finish your charge move within 1" of the unit you actually tried to charge if you had to get within 1" of my AIRCRAFT - because you're now prohibited from getting within 1" of ANY enemy units. Your charge failed. You don't even get to pile-in.
There is no such thing as locked in combat, only whether you are within 1" of enemy models, or not. It doesn't matter if you can attack a unit, or not. Master of snares prevents a unit from falling back. If it's s flyer with minimum move it will be destroyed.
p5freak wrote: There is no such thing as locked in combat, only whether you are within 1" of enemy models, or not. It doesn't matter if you can attack a unit, or not. Master of snares prevents a unit from falling back. If it's s flyer with minimum move it will be destroyed.
If it's a flyer with a minimum move, it's an AIRCRAFT - that's pretty much how they defined their new KEYWORD, and you can't get within 1" of AIRCRAFT with "any kind of move" - even a Pile-In Move.
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be
moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be
moved across such models (and their bases) as if they
were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of
another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move
within 1" of any enemy units.
For as much as we laugh at GW for writing bad rules, they usually do it often enough you can find another badly written rule to bash someone trying to abuse the first badly written rule over the head with. In this case not only can't you pile in to my aircraft, you can't charge them either. Even with models that fly. Because even with Fly, you can't end within 1" of my AIRCRAFT even on a Charge Move - which is still "any kind of move" -
You are forgetting that this is only in the movement phase. The fight phase is not the movement phase. You can pile in and consolidate in the fight phase into an aircraft.
Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, page 177 – Movement Phase
Add the following text to the end of the Movement Phase section:
‘Aircraft
If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move characteristic (or if it has a damage table on its datasheet that
includes any minimum Move characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be
moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of
another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are
Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).’
p5freak wrote: You are forgetting that this is only in the movement phase. The fight phase is not the movement phase. You can pile in and consolidate in the fight phase into an aircraft.
Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, page 177 – Movement Phase
Add the following text to the end of the Movement Phase section:
‘Aircraft
If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move characteristic (or if it has a damage table on its datasheet that
includes any minimum Move characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be
moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of
another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are
Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).’
No, it's not.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are
Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).
comes AFTER the part about not being able to move within 1" of an AIRCRAFT The first part doesn't specify a phase, and in fact specifies ANY KIND OF MOVE. Charge and Pile-In are kinds of moves. The part you continued the quote to doesn't even refer to the AIRCRAFT but models within 1" of an AIRCRAFT who can still move without falling back. In the movement phase.
With the way this rule is written, the only way you're getting your White Scars bike captain within 1" of an AIRCRAFT is to make him fly, and have me charge him with my AIRCRAFT.
Aircraft have the airborne ability, and thus cannot charge unless they have hover.
So essentially, if we say that AIRCRAFT means nothing can move within an inch of the model ever, then they immune to all melee and movement aside from their own.
Even though the rule does say a unit can be moved within an inch but cannot end it's move within an inch. So which is it?
Because Pile In and Consolidation allow you to be moved within an inch of enemy model.
p5freak wrote: Again, those rules are only in the movement phase.
Again, no they're not. You are however free to quote and emphasize the "Movement Phase Only" disclaimer you see for not being able to end ANY KIND OF MOVE within 1" of an AIRCRAFT using the italics, bold, or underline BBCode. Wouldn't be the first time I've been blind. Are you saying a Charge Move and a Pile-In Move aren't... some kind of move? Even Embarking and Disembarking is some kind of move.
It's pretty simple. If someone is going to try and get a cheap RAW kill of an AIRCRAFT because they don't want to deal with it in the spirit of the game, they're going to run into a cheap RAW reading of the AIRCRAFT rule - and a strictly literal reading of "Any Kind Of Move" until/unless GWFAQ's it - again - either to nerf the snares or change the wording of AIRCRAFT so they can just keep flying/moving like the ground models. They screwed up making the keep moving without falling back allowance one-directional.
I wouldn't be OK either if an opponent pile-ins / consolidates / heroically intervenes within an inch of my aircraft with a model that can't fly i.e: white scars captain on a bike with master of snares, with the sole intention of preventing it from falling back on subsequent turns, thus making it explode.
It does not make any sense from a logical point of view. In addition, and I may be wrong on this one, just because the aircraft rule sits under the movement phase section of the rules does not mean that it only applies to this section. A good example is the rule FLY, which also sits in this section of the rules but affects charges too.
And no, the fact that the aircraft rule impedes enemy models to move within an inch of models with aircraft does not mean it's impossible to charge them imo, as the airborne rule provides an exception to it (if you have fly, you can charge an aircraft)
And no, the fact that the aircraft rule impedes enemy models to move within an inch of models with aircraft does not mean it's impossible to charge them imo, as the airborne rule provides an exception to it (if you have fly, you can charge an aircraft)
Ahh you see, you're giving them a generous interpretation of the rules. Perfectly fine, understandable, and even expected in a friendly game. Not so much when they want to crash a Stormraven with a pit trap. After that, they can't charge it either, rule says 4+ cant fall back, Rule says Any Kind of Move.
I'm getting lost at this point... nobody is arguing that a smash captain (with a jump pack) with master of snares would be able to charge an aircraft, then destroy it in the following turn if the aircraft were unable to fall back, right?
Again, no they're not. You are however free to quote and emphasize the "Movement Phase Only" disclaimer you see for not being able to end ANY KIND OF MOVE within 1" of an AIRCRAFT using the italics, bold, or underline BBCode. Wouldn't be the first time I've been blind. Are you saying a Charge Move and a Pile-In Move aren't... some kind of move? Even Embarking and Disembarking is some kind of move.
Charge, pile in, consolidate are moves. But NOT moves in the movement phase. The limitation of not being able to move within 1" of an aircraft only applies in the movement phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
eparedes0785 wrote: I wouldn't be OK either if an opponent pile-ins / consolidates / heroically intervenes within an inch of my aircraft with a model that can't fly i.e: white scars captain on a bike with master of snares, with the sole intention of preventing it from falling back on subsequent turns, thus making it explode.
I am also not ok with tsons smite spam, suffering 30MW per turn, but that's doesn't change the rules.
Again, no they're not. You are however free to quote and emphasize the "Movement Phase Only" disclaimer you see for not being able to end ANY KIND OF MOVE within 1" of an AIRCRAFT using the italics, bold, or underline BBCode. Wouldn't be the first time I've been blind. Are you saying a Charge Move and a Pile-In Move aren't... some kind of move? Even Embarking and Disembarking is some kind of move.
Charge, pile in, consolidate are moves. But NOT moves in the movement phase. The limitation of not being able to move within 1" of an aircraft only applies in the movement phase.
Prove it. Quote the Any Kind of Move modified by Only In the Movement Phase.
To paraphrase you, you may not like it but the rules as written don't differentiate between ANY KIND OF MOVE in the movement phase, and ANY KIND OF MOVE IN ANY PHASE - you may not like it....
but that's doesn't change the rules.
ANY KIND OF MOVE is not modified by "in the movement phase".
Prove it. Quote the Any Kind of Move modified by Only In the Movement Phase.
To paraphrase you, you may not like it but the rules as written don't differentiate between ANY KIND OF MOVE in the movement phase, and ANY KIND OF MOVE IN ANY PHASE - you may not like it....
Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, page 177 – Movement Phase
Add the following text to the end of the Movement Phase section: ‘Aircraft
If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move characteristic (or if it has a damage table on its datasheet that
includes any minimum Move characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be
moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of
another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are
Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).’
These rules are literally listed in the movement phase part of the rulebook. hence they only apply in the movement phase. The part that you are hung up on is "any kind of move" but it's my understanding charging and pile-in are not kinds of moves. The kinds of moves are "move, fall back, and advance" as those are what's listed in the movement phase. Charging is an action taken in the charge phase, and pile-in is an action taken in the fight phase.
the last sentence of the rule is in regards to when you choose the model to activate and whether or not it can move. It also explicitly mentions having other units within 1" of it. which implies that units can end up in the position without breaking the previously mentioned rules.
Again, no they're not. You are however free to quote and emphasize the "Movement Phase Only" disclaimer you see for not being able to end ANY KIND OF MOVE within 1" of an AIRCRAFT using the italics, bold, or underline BBCode. Wouldn't be the first time I've been blind. Are you saying a Charge Move and a Pile-In Move aren't... some kind of move? Even Embarking and Disembarking is some kind of move.
Charge, pile in, consolidate are moves. But NOT moves in the movement phase. The limitation of not being able to move within 1" of an aircraft only applies in the movement phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
eparedes0785 wrote: I wouldn't be OK either if an opponent pile-ins / consolidates / heroically intervenes within an inch of my aircraft with a model that can't fly i.e: white scars captain on a bike with master of snares, with the sole intention of preventing it from falling back on subsequent turns, thus making it explode.
I am also not ok with tsons smite spam, suffering 30MW per turn, but that's doesn't change the rules.
Please provide specific quotes rules stating movement phse only.. otherwise, your speculations are done here. Thank you for your fine, there is the door.
I, and others, have already provided citations. Please leave if you don't want, or can't read it. It's the one saying pg. 177 add the following text to the end of the movement phase section.
Could sbdy explain to me why the rule FLY, which is also embedded in the movement phase section does not only apply to the movement phase, please?
Page 177 – Moving
Add the following sentence to the end of the first paragraph:
‘No part of a model or its base can be set up or moved over the edge of the battlefield.’
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during the Movement phase it can move across models as if they were not there, and when moving across terrain features, vertical distance is not counted against the total it can move (i.e. moving vertically is free for this model in the Movement phase). If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during the CHARGE PHASE it can move across models (other than Buildings) as if they were not there.’
Automatically Appended Next Post: In addition to the above question, could you also explain why do aircrafts only gain the keyword for the movement phase alone as well?
If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move characteristic (or if it has a damage table on its datasheet that includes any minimum Move characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.
eparedes0785 wrote: Could sbdy explain to me why the rule FLY, which is also embedded in the movement phase section does not only apply to the movement phase, please?
Page 177 – Moving
Add the following sentence to the end of the first paragraph:
‘No part of a model or its base can be set up or moved over the edge of the battlefield.’
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during the Movement phase it can move across models as if they were not there, and when moving across terrain features, vertical distance is not counted against the total it can move (i.e. moving vertically is free for this model in the Movement phase). If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during the CHARGE PHASE it can move across models (other than Buildings) as if they were not there.’
Automatically Appended Next Post: In addition to the above question, could you also explain why do aircrafts only gain the keyword for the movement phase alone as well?
If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move characteristic (or if it has a damage table on its datasheet that includes any minimum Move characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.
All that does is clarify the rule, it doesn't explain why FLY continues to apply outside the movement phase but ANY KIND OF MOVE does not.
Also thank for this one -
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during the Movement phase it can move across models as if they were not there,
My AIRCRAFT have the fly rule. I can move over the Captain as if he's not there. I don't even have to fall back. As if he's not there.
We believed the most elegant way to resolve this issue was simply to disallow units that
can Fly from ignoring intervening models and terrain during the Charge phase. Since then, we’ve had a lot of feedback
from players who feel that the inability to ignore intervening models when charging has unduly affected the effectiveness
of their flying units. On reflection, we believe they are right, and it was certainly not our intent to affect the balance
of any of these units by our changes.
That's why Fly still works outside the movement phase. Because feedback from the players made them decide to change the rule to allow it.
We believed the most elegant way to resolve this issue was simply to disallow units that
can Fly from ignoring intervening models and terrain during the Charge phase. Since then, we’ve had a lot of feedback
from players who feel that the inability to ignore intervening models when charging has unduly affected the effectiveness
of their flying units. On reflection, we believe they are right, and it was certainly not our intent to affect the balance
of any of these units by our changes.
That's why Fly still works outside the movement phase. Because feedback from the players made them decide to change the rule to allow it.
It worked before that way before they changed it to, even though it was still described in the movement phase.The FAQ that rolls back the change to FLY working outside the movement phase as described in the movement phase section isn't very good proof things in the movement phase section only apply in the movement phase. We're still Any Kind of Move, and Models with Fly can move over models as if they aren't there.
We believed the most elegant way to resolve this issue was simply to disallow units that
can Fly from ignoring intervening models and terrain during the Charge phase. Since then, we’ve had a lot of feedback
from players who feel that the inability to ignore intervening models when charging has unduly affected the effectiveness
of their flying units. On reflection, we believe they are right, and it was certainly not our intent to affect the balance
of any of these units by our changes.
That's why Fly still works outside the movement phase. Because feedback from the players made them decide to change the rule to allow it.
It worked before that way before they changed it to, even though it was still described in the movement phase.The FAQ that rolls back the change to FLY working outside the movement phase as described in the movement phase section isn't very good proof things in the movement phase section only apply in the movement phase. We're still Any Kind of Move, and Models with Fly can move over models as if they aren't there.
But the aircraft rule was introduced after they changed it. They introduced the "movement phase only" specific stuff when they changed fly. A bunch of people got mad about fly, so it was granted a special exception.
TLDR: Any model can consolidate into an aircraft unit, they won't do anything in normal instances. However in the case RAW with this rule, the aircraft will die on a 4+.
But the aircraft rule was introduced after they changed it. They introduced the "movement phase only" specific stuff when they changed fly. A bunch of people got mad about fly, so it was granted a special exception.
What does that matter? People are saying the addition to the movement phase words in the FAQ don't apply outside the movement phase. FLY is in the movement section, and first applied outside the movement phase. Then it didn't due to a FAQ, The FAQ then backtracked and its back to how it was before.. working outside the movement phase.
And if they introduced the Aircraft specific stuff after they did everything else, then even more so Any Kind Of Move would take the not Movement Phase only thing into consideration and it didn't specify Movement Phase Only.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ThatMG wrote: TLDR: Any model can consolidate into an aircraft unit, they won't do anything in normal instances. However in the case RAW with this rule, the aircraft will die on a 4+.
Wrong - RAW they can't charge. pile in, consolidate or otherwise move within 1" of an AIRCRAFT. IF the Aircraft moves within 1" of a model with this rule, they MAY be stuck and die on a 4+
There's another quote - unfortunately partial so I'll have to look up the rest that says In the movement phase models with fly can move over other models as if they're not there, meaning they don't even need to fall back unless there's more context.
Wrong - RAW they can't charge. pile in, consolidate or otherwise move within 1" of an AIRCRAFT. IF the Aircraft moves within 1" of a model with this rule, they MAY be stuck and die on a 4+
Wrong. RAW any unit can pile in and consolidate within 1" of an AIRCRAFT. True, only units with FLY can charge an AIRCRAFT.
And btw, an AIRCRAFT can pile in and consolidate as well.
The aircraft would have to fall back if it were charged by a model with fly and could potentially be destroyed if said model had the master of snares trait.
That said, I'm of the opinion that RAW the only way to get within an inch of an aircraft is by charging it, for which you need to have the fly keyword. Even if you had fly, you could still not get within an inch of an aircraft model through pile-ins / consolidations or heroic interventions. And it appears that's I''m not the only one who thinks so...
Anyone seriously suggesting you could explode an aircraft using a white scars captain on a bike with master of snares is simply using RAHWTB (rules as he wishes they'd be).
Let's use common sense here... they released an FAQ to prevent the use of flyers as move blockers because it doesn't make any sense from a fluff perspective and now some pple defend the view said FAQ intends to tackle...
eparedes0785 wrote: So the model gains a keyword but only during the movement phase... yeah, that does make sense...
No, it gains the keyword, and the Keyword only applies when it specifies. It doesn't disappear in a different phase, it just doesn't apply.
Also, why do you believe Pile Ins and Consolidations wouldn't allow getting within an inch? They explicitly state you must move towards the closest enemy model and you must end closer to it.
Why were models with the FLY keyword also flying in the fight phase at the beginning of the edition? Fly sits in the movement phase... and the rules did not specify anything about any other phases... also, following the spirit of the FAQ you are now choosing to ignore...
"whilst the rules are very clear on the matter, it does feel contrary to, and disconnected from the narrative’. We agree; after all, the aircraft employing this tactic, whilst right in front of the enemy units are in fact imagined to be soaring high above the battlefield, not skimming over the surface.
How on earth is a model on a motorbike pile-in within an inch of an aircraft? It doesn't make sense from a narrative perspective
eparedes0785 wrote: Why were models with the FLY keyword also flying in the fight phase at the beginning of the edition? Fly sits in the movement phase... and the rules did not specify anything about any other phases... also, following the spirit of the FAQ you are now choosing to ignore...
"whilst the rules are very clear on the matter, it does feel contrary to, and disconnected from the narrative’. We agree; after all, the aircraft employing this tactic, whilst right in front of the enemy units are in fact imagined to be soaring high above the battlefield, not skimming over the surface.
How on earth is a model on a motorbike pile-in within an inch of an aircraft? It doesn't make sense from a narrative perspective
He obviously took a sweet jump off of a ruined platform and fistbumped the planes underside with his snare. -shrug-
Also, Fly never worked in the Fight Phase. It worked in the Charge Phase. And then it was fixed. But was Faq'd and extra clarification added in FAQs about when it works.
Complete honesty. I could see this going either way, but we won't know until the SM:WS Errata/FAQ. Because it is a pretty big deal to kill a plane on a 4+ by just being near it.
Wrong - RAW they can't charge. pile in, consolidate or otherwise move within 1" of an AIRCRAFT. IF the Aircraft moves within 1" of a model with this rule, they MAY be stuck and die on a 4+
Wrong. RAW any unit can pile in and consolidate within 1" of an AIRCRAFT. True, only units with FLY can charge an AIRCRAFT.
And btw, an AIRCRAFT can pile in and consolidate as well.
Wrong. It specifically states in the Aircraft FAQ you can't move withint 1" of an AIRCRAFT with ANY KIND OF MOVE. You're welcome to say its RAI, but no, you can't say it's RAW.
eparedes0785 wrote: So the model gains a keyword but only during the movement phase... yeah, that does make sense...
No, it gains the keyword, and the Keyword only applies when it specifies. It doesn't disappear in a different phase, it just doesn't apply.
Also, why do you believe Pile Ins and Consolidations wouldn't allow getting within an inch? They explicitly state you must move towards the closest enemy model and you must end closer to it.
Because the AIRCRAFT part of the BRBFAQ says you can't get within 1" of an AIRCRAFT with "any kind of move".
It doesn't specify it doesn't, so it does. It doesn't say "any kind of move...." IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE. It says ANY KIND OF MOVE. Period. End of Sentence. I would absolutely bet that this isn't what they intended. I also absolutely believe crashing a fighter jet at several thousand feet of altitude with a bear trap wasn't what they intended either. Which is why if someone required I play that RAW, I'd require we play this RAW, and they can't get within 1" of an AIRCRAFT.
Also we've been getting a little lazy - but the strict reading says they CAN get within 1", they just cant END within 1" of any enemy units.
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be
moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be
moved across such models (and their bases) as if they
were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of
another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move
within 1" of any enemy units.
Yes, you can't get within 1" of an AIRCRAFT in the movement phase.
Page 177 – Movement Phase
Add the following text to the end of the Movement phase section: .......
You can get with 1" of an AIRCRAFT in any other phase and end your movement there (the fight phase is not the movement phase), except the charge phase, unless you have FLY.
It doesn't matter whether you like it or not, or it doesnt make narrative sense, the rules are the rules. House rule it if you want to. But the RAW is clear.
p5freak wrote: You can't get within 1" of an AIRCRAFT in the movement phase.
You can get within 1" of Aircraft in any phase, but you can't end within 1" of Aircraft in any phase with any kind of move.
The Rule you are quoting is in the movement phase. It states it in the BRBFAQ you are quoting to people. Why are you ignoring this?
Because it doesn't say In The movement phase for the rule I'm quoting, while it DOES specifically call out In The Movement phase just a short while later? Because there are lots of locations where a rule is in one section, but refers to or applies to another seciodn. I suppose you could cut and paste "in the movement phase" up a paragraph, but if we start doing that to all the rules they're going to start getting silly. But mostly because if people are going to be strictly literal to force the use the snare on an Aircraft, I'm going to be strictly literal to prohibit it. I will absolutely concede snare will cause an Aircraft to crash based on the strictly literal reading of the rule, and I will apply that same strictly literal reading of the rules to prohibit you from using that snare in the first place. The rules for Invulnerable saves, Mortal Wounds, and Ignoring Wounds are in the section for shooting attacks. Do invulnerable saves, Mortal Wounds, and Ignoring Wounds not work in the Fight Phase? The rules for Transports follow the rules for the Morale Phase. I can't wait to hear what everyone thinks that means for embarking and disembarking.
The very next paragraph starts with:
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase,
THAT rule is limited to the movement phase.
You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to say the rules as written say some dude on a bike in total weighing half a ton or less can ensnare an aircraft - flying at 25,000 feet with tons and tons of thrust - with a bola, you have to also admit the rules state you can't end any kind of move within 1" of an Aircraft - and doesn't differentiate between phases.
p5freak wrote: You can't get within 1" of an AIRCRAFT in the movement phase.
You can get within 1" of Aircraft in any phase, but you can't end within 1" of Aircraft in any phase with any kind of move.
The Rule you are quoting is in the movement phase. It states it in the BRBFAQ you are quoting to people. Why are you ignoring this?
Because it doesn't say In The movement phase for the rule I'm quoting, while it DOES specifically call out In The Movement phase just a short while later? Because there are lots of locations where a rule is in one section, but refers to or applies to another seciodn. I suppose you could cut and paste "in the movement phase" up a paragraph, but if we start doing that to all the rules they're going to start getting silly. But mostly because if people are going to be strictly literal to force the use the snare on an Aircraft, I'm going to be strictly literal to prohibit it. I will absolutely concede snare will cause an Aircraft to crash based on the strictly literal reading of the rule, and I will apply that same strictly literal reading of the rules to prohibit you from using that snare in the first place. The rules for Invulnerable saves, Mortal Wounds, and Ignoring Wounds are in the section for shooting attacks. Do invulnerable saves, Mortal Wounds, and Ignoring Wounds not work in the Fight Phase? The rules for Transports follow the rules for the Morale Phase. I can't wait to hear what everyone thinks that means for embarking and disembarking.
The very next paragraph starts with:
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase,
THAT rule is limited to the movement phase.
You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to say the rules as written say some dude on a bike in total weighing half a ton or less can ensnare an aircraft - flying at 25,000 feet with tons and tons of thrust - with a bola, you have to also admit the rules state you can't end any kind of move within 1" of an Aircraft - and doesn't differentiate between phases.
The Rules for Mortal Wounds, Invuns, Embark/Disembark etc are set apart in "boxes," and are not part of the a Phase. These rules a clearly separated from the standard rules of the phase. Now the fact that it is stupid to think that a guy on the ground pile into a plane that is 25,000 feet is moot. This is a rules discussion not what is "realistic"
The BRBFAQ states to add the rules to the movement phase. So they apply to the movement phase.Can you show me any evidence that the rules also apply to all the other phases? Following your logic a unit with FLY cannot charge a plane, do you feel that is RAW?
To be honest, imo, you should not be able to get within 1" of an AIRCRAFT without the fly keyword.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also having re-read the rule there is also this,
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are
Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).
If you cannot get within 1" of an Aircraft in ANY phase, as you maintain, then why does this part of the rule exist?
The BRBFAQ states to add the rules to the movement phase. So they apply to the movement phase.Can you show me any evidence that the rules also apply to all the other phases? Following your logic a unit with FLY cannot charge a plane, do you feel that is RAW?
To be honest, imo, you should not be able to get within 1" of an AIRCRAFT without the fly keyword.
Considering I've laughingly already pointed out that's EXACTLY what the Rules as written say, yes. In fact, its even worse... if you have to go within 1" of an AIRCRAFT to do it, Fly or Not, you can't charge, pile in, etc. ANY enemy models not just the aircraft. Its not the give-and-take reading I'd prefer, but then I didn't start with the silly RAW over the more logical RAI - Ergo RAW it is.
They are in seperate bubbles at the end of the shooting phase rules. The beginning of the fight phase begins the next page. They are in the section for the Shooting Phase. Following your logic, they would have to reprint those rules in each and every section of the game rules. As has already been brought up, the FLY rule is in the movement phase, which means it doesn't apply in the Fight/Charge phase - again according to your logic.
The rule as written says No Kind of Move, and does NOT say Only In The Movement Phase. If I don't get to apply my RAI on the snare, why should you get to apply your RAI on moving within 1" of an AIRCRAFT?
And Once again, the VERY NEXT paragraph specifically stipulates the next part only applies in the Movement phase. The quoted section did not so stipulate so it applies in all phases. Like Mortal Wounds and invulnerable saves.
If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move
characteristic (or if it has a damage table on
its datasheet that includes any minimum Move
characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be
moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be
moved across such models (and their bases) as if they
were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of
another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move
within 1" of any enemy units.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement
phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are
Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not
have to Fall Back in order to move).’
Paragraph 1 Defines AIRCRAFT
Paragraph 2 describes movement by and around AIRCRAFT
Paragraph 3 SPECIFCALLY calls out In The Movement Phase.
Additionally, we have -
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during
the Movement phase it can move across models as if they
were not there, and when moving across terrain features,
vertical distance is not counted against the total it can
move (i.e. moving vertically is free for this model in
the Movement phase). If the datasheet for a model says
it can Fly, then during the Charge phase it can move
across models (other than Buildings) as if they were
not there.’
So a model with FLY can move over models within 1" as if they aren't there and as long as they must/can move OVER (all) enemy models within 1" they don't have to fall back, because they can move over those models as if they aren't there. During the Movement phase. Oh look, somewhere else.. in the errata for the movement section that has to specifically call out it only applies during the movement phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll even admit, I don't think "if you have to go within 1" of an AIRCRAFT to do it, Fly or Not, you can't charge, pile in, etc. ANY enemy models not just the aircraft. " was meant to happen, I think they were trying to allow ground pounders to charge under an aircraft they couldn't otherwise touch, but the rules as written didn't work out the way we'd all like. Much like the snare.
They are in seperate bubbles at the end of the shooting phase rules. The beginning of the fight phase begins the next page. They are in the section for the Shooting Phase. Following your logic, they would have to reprint those rules in each and every section of the game rules. As has already been brought up, the FLY rule is in the movement phase, which means it doesn't apply in the Fight/Charge phase - again according to your logic.
That is blatantly mis-representing what i am saying. I am saying that BECAUSE they are in boxes separated from the main body of the rules they are exactly that, separate and not part of that phase.
Now the AIRCRAFT Rule. There seem to be 2 interpretations of this rule.
1) That rule applies to all phases. This means that units with FLY cannot charge AIRCRAFT and that units that move within 1" of an AIRCRAFT cannot then charge any unit.
2) That the rule only applies to the Movement phase and as such you can charge an AIRCRAFT with FLY and units that move wthin 1" on an AIRCRAFT can charge other units.
As i also mentioned there is this part of the Rule you are omitting.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are
Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).
If you cannot move within 1" as you maintain, then why do you need this part of the rule?
EDIT: I also cannot seem to do those quote bubbles manually!
AdmiralHalsey wrote: What moves do you think 'Any kind of move' means, if this rule only applies in the movement phase?
Move, Advance or Fallback. 3 types of move that happen within the movement phase. If it didn't say any kind of move you know that people would be arguing that you could Advance or fallback to within 1".
That is blatantly mis-representing what i am saying. I am saying that BECAUSE they are in boxes separated from the main body of the rules they are exactly that, separate and not part of that phase.
How do you know the Aircraft rule wouldn't have been in a seperate bubble if it hadn't have been an errata?
Now the AIRCRAFT Rule. There seem to be 2 interpretations of this rule.
1) That rule applies to all phases. This means that units with FLY cannot charge AIRCRAFT and that units that move within 1" of an AIRCRAFT cannot then charge any unit.
2) That the rule only applies to the Movement phase and as such you can charge an AIRCRAFT with FLY and units that move wthin 1" on an AIRCRAFT can charge other units.
As i also mentioned there is this part of the Rule you are omitting.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are
Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).
If you cannot move within 1" as you maintain, then why do you need this part of the rule?
Because the Aircraft can charge/pile-in/consolidate within 1" of something.
EDIT: I also cannot seem to do those quote bubbles manually!
I frequently have to fix BBCode syntax when I delete extra quote text and the like too. Don't feel bad.
I see p5 is still trying to push false information. I would hate to play him and watch him be upset when I didn’t allow him to do anything he says he can.
Add the following text to the end of the Movement phase section:
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be
moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be
moved across such models (and their bases) as if they
were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of
another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move
within 1" of any enemy units.
Well... The first sentence do specify that it is in the movement phase.
2. You all bring up units that can FLY and that "it works in the charge phase".. Re-read THAT rule again!
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during
the Movement phase it can move across models as if they
were not there, and when moving across terrain features,
vertical distance is not counted against the total it can
move (i.e. moving vertically is free for this model in
the Movement phase). If the datasheet for a model says
it can Fly, then during the Charge phase it can move
across models (other than Buildings) as if they were
not there.’
The last part specify why that is. Do you want GW to copy/paste and/or add that rule and place it under the charging phase?
3.
with all this, you CAN pile in and consolidate into an AIRCRAFT unit and then on a 4+ kill it. It's the same thing with the Contorted Epitome and this has not been FAQ so why will this be?
So if your all basing your interpretation on "a unit with FLY has that rule and its effecting the move in the charge phase"..
BECAUSE the rule explicit do tell you just that!
I will warn my opponent of my Contorted Epitome and killing his/hers AIRCRAFT units as that are what the rules are.
Tazberry wrote: Add the following text to the end of the Movement phase section:
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be
moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be
moved across such models (and their bases) as if they
were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of
another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move
within 1" of any enemy units.
Well... The first sentence do specify that it is in the movement phase.
Well, it says to append the text to the end of the Movement Phase section. The rule itself, however, does not say "in the Movement phase" there like it says in other things later. We'll get back to this after your next point.
Tazberry wrote: 2. You all bring up units that can FLY and that "it works in the charge phase".. Re-read THAT rule again!
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during
the Movement phase it can move across models as if they
were not there, and when moving across terrain features,
vertical distance is not counted against the total it can
move (i.e. moving vertically is free for this model in
the Movement phase). If the datasheet for a model says
it can Fly, then during the Charge phase it can move
across models (other than Buildings) as if they were
not there.’
The last part specify why that is. Do you want GW to copy/paste and/or add that rule and place it under the charging phase?
I believe that same argument can be applied to the first point. Do you want GW to copy/paste and/ior add that rule to every other section that has any kind of movement involved in it?
If they wanted it to work for all movement of any kind then they simply would have worded it differently in the first sentence.
Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, page 177 – Movement Phase
Add the following text to the end of the Movement Phase section:
‘Aircraft
If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move characteristic (or if it has a damage table on its datasheet that includes any minimum Move characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).’
This is the whole text. It clearly says movement phase. Just as clear as the FLY keyword says that those units can charge over other units.
I would be happy if they did a rulebook that had every rule for every phase specified and exactly how a battle round is and when a turn starts/ends. It would make everything much easier.
Tazberry wrote: Add the following text to the end of the Movement phase section:
Well... The first sentence do specify that it is in the movement phase.
no, it specifies the rule is located in the movement phase section. We’re talking RAW, you don’t get to add more than what is there.
2. You all bring up units that can FLY and that "it works in the charge phase".. Re-read THAT rule again!
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during
the Movement phase it can move across models as if they
were not there, and when moving across terrain features,
vertical distance is not counted against the total it can
move (i.e. moving vertically is free for this model in
the Movement phase). If the datasheet for a model says
it can Fly, then during the Charge phase it can move
across models (other than Buildings) as if they were
not there.’
you’ve merged two things together, probably because quote texting copy and paste has removed the spacing/separation. The part that starts with “If the datasheel for a model says it can fly....” is a different FAQ piece. And shows that the rules in the movement phase section both can apply outside the movement phase, AND must specify if it applies less than ALWAYS.
The last part specify why that is. Do you want GW to copy/paste and/or add that rule and place it under the charging phase?
no, the people who say movement phase rules section rules only apply to the movement phase do.
3.
with all this, you CAN pile in and consolidate into an AIRCRAFT unit and then on a 4+ kill it. It's the same thing with the Contorted Epitome and this has not been FAQ so why will this be?
. There’s an entire list of stupidly oxymoron rules that haven’t been FAQ’ed. This doesn’t change the RAW. If you want to apply the RAI on the rules you want to, you should be applying the RAI on the rules I want to. If you want to apply the RAW to the rules I don’t like, I’m going to apply the RAW to the rules you don’t like.
So if your all basing your interpretation on "a unit with FLY has that rule and its effecting the move in the charge phase"..
BECAUSE the rule explicit do tell you just that!
I will warn my opponent of my Contorted Epitome and killing his/hers AIRCRAFT units as that are what the rules are.
The rule explicitly says ANY KIND of move. - nobody has mentioned the rules for Contorted Epitome so I can’t say what it can or can’t do - but if it’s the same as the snares, the rules say you can’t initiate the conditions, only the Aircraft can. Pick a standard - strict RAW where nobody is happy, or give-and-take RAI and apply it to both players.
Edit to add: for the record my RAI is I have the strong impression they’ve made a feeble attempt to create a second “layer” so to speak on the tabletop for AIRCRAFT with a semi-permeable boundary only models with FLY can cross such that Aircraft don’t interfere with the ground pounders and groundpounders don’t interfere with aircraft.
you’ve merged two things together, probably because quote texting copy and paste has removed the spacing/separation. The part that starts with “If the datasheel for a model says it can fly....” is a different FAQ piece. And shows that the rules in the movement phase section both can apply outside the movement phase, AND must specify if it applies less than ALWAYS.
Movement phase rules always apply, unless specified otherwise ?
I feel like you’re operating under a misconception. I feel like you think proving my RAW readings break the game and that’s why we RAI them will somehow defend your RAW reading of a rule that’s begging to be RAI’ed.
So sure, go find a movement phase rule that doesn’t say it’s movement phase only that breaks the game. Help me out.
I wasn't thinking of a game breaking situation, but I'm pretty sure there are some. You really need to understand that certain rules are for certain phases only.
So are you saying that all units with the keyword AIRCRAFT can never be in close combat? Sad thing for my flying Daemon prince and other melee oriented armies with Fly keyword.
You play your RAI and I play my RAW. (With exceptions ofc, assault weapons, pistols for example.)
p5freak wrote: I wasn't thinking of a game breaking situation, but I'm pretty sure there are some. You really need to understand that certain rules are for certain phases only.
I do. But that’s a RAI, and you need to understand if you’re going to demand RAW for things that benefit you, yet we should RAI, then so am I.
p5freak wrote: Which daemon prince has a minimum move ?? That's required to get the AIRCRAFT keyword.
No one. But to make it more clearly. A Daemon price or any other unit with FLY keyword can’t charge a unit with the keyword AIRCRAFT if your interpretation is to be true.
As “Any kind of move”. Hmm, need to change my list so I can shoot them down.
And by RAW, we do have phases, turns and battlerounds. So why should this rule apply too every phase yet it says movement phase.
I simply do not understand your reasoning for this. If you can, try explain it to me.
p5freak wrote: Which daemon prince has a minimum move ?? That's required to get the AIRCRAFT keyword.
No one. But to make it more clearly. A Daemon price or any other unit with FLY keyword can’t charge a unit with the keyword AIRCRAFT if your interpretation is to be true.
As “Any kind of move”. Hmm, need to change my list so I can shoot them down.
And by RAW, we do have phases, turns and battlerounds. So why should this rule apply too every phase yet it says movement phase.
I simply do not understand your reasoning for this. If you can, try explain it to me.
The restriction of moving within 1" of an enemy unit is provided in the movement phase rules, and is limited to the movement phase. Charging and pile in doesn't provide an exception to that restriction because it isn't required.
BRB wrote:When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models.
The problem with the Aircraft rule is that the second paragraph has no such restrictions on when it applies. This means that unless something specifically calls it out and says we can ignore that restriction, we can't move with in 1" of an aircraft.
FAQ wrote:Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units.
The counter argument is of course, that because the rule appears in the movement section that it only applies then. The problem with that is that when we consider other types of movement (charges, pile in, consolidate, etc), is that they would not be bound by the "moving" section in the rules. I'll let you consider what the implications of that might be.
Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield
after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic powers),
and are then set back up again on the battlefield?
A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the
battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following
rules apply to that unit:
1. Any rules that are triggered by or apply to units that
are ‘set up on the battlefield as reinforcements’ are also
triggered by and apply to that unit when it is set up on
the battlefield.
2. Models in that unit count as having moved a distance
equal to their Move characteristic that turn (and so
suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and
firing Heavy weapons). If the unit has a minimum Move
characteristic, it counts as having moved its maximum
Move characteristic.
3. Models in that unit cannot move again during that turn
for any reason, other than to make a charge move, to
pile in, or to consolidate.
A unit arriving as reinforcements cannot move again during that turn for any reason, but they charge, pile in, consolidate. The logical conclusion from this is that charge, pile in, consolidate isn't movement.
JakeSiren wrote: No, the logical conclusion is that they are a list of exceptions, which is exactly how they are written.
This. The quoted rule states charge move as well as pile in and consolidate. Saying that a charge move is not a type of move seems rather strange. Also both pile in and consolidate say "this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model." So we also have mention of pile in and consolidate being types of moves.
JakeSiren wrote: No, the logical conclusion is that they are a list of exceptions, which is exactly how they are written.
This. The quoted rule states charge move as well as pile in and consolidate. Saying that a charge move is not a type of move seems rather strange. Also both pile in and consolidate say "this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model." So we also have mention of pile in and consolidate being types of moves.
There are also two different meanings to "suffer a wound" in 40k. This isn't that unusual.
eparedes0785 wrote: Why wouldn't a model with fly be unable to charge an aircraft? The airborne rule provides an exception to the aircraft rule, doesn't it?
the FAQ nullifies it. Most likely accidentally.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
p5freak wrote: GW doesn't consider a charge move to be a move
Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield
after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic powers),
and are then set back up again on the battlefield?
A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the
battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following
rules apply to that unit:
1. Any rules that are triggered by or apply to units that
are ‘set up on the battlefield as reinforcements’ are also
triggered by and apply to that unit when it is set up on
the battlefield.
2. Models in that unit count as having moved a distance
equal to their Move characteristic that turn (and so
suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and
firing Heavy weapons). If the unit has a minimum Move
characteristic, it counts as having moved its maximum
Move characteristic.
3. Models in that unit cannot move again during that turn
for any reason, other than to make a charge move, to
pile in, or to consolidate.
A unit arriving as reinforcements cannot move again during that turn for any reason, but they charge, pile in, consolidate. The logical conclusion from this is that charge, pile in, consolidate isn't movement.
. Tut tut tut.. you’re not reading it strictly as it’s written in your own quote...
Cannot move again.. yadda yadda... OTHER THAN... charge moves pile-in moves and consolidation are among any kind of moves. OTHER THAN.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tazberry wrote: So are you saying that all units with the keyword AIRCRAFT can never be in close combat? Sad thing for my flying Daemon prince and other melee oriented armies with Fly keyword.
You play your RAI and I play my RAW. (With exceptions ofc, assault weapons, pistols for example.)
. As already mentioned Daemon Prices aren’t AIRCRAFT, AIRCRAFT are models with a minimum move AND the FLY keyword. And I didn’t say that, I said AIRCRAFT can’t be moved within 1” of. I also specifically said an Aircraft CAN move within 1” of an enemy model. The two immunities stupidly only go one direction. Only AIRCRAFT can initiate (end a) move within 1” of enemy models. Only ground pounders can leave 1” without falling back.
Thus my RAI they’ve tried - and did a very poor job of it- to make ground pounders and AIRCRAFT two separate layers in the game that only FLY and shooting can cross.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well that’s not entirely true. Any model with FLY can leave the within 1” - as long as they travel OVER any/all models within that 1” without falling back. This fly/Aircraft FAQ was incredibly stupid. Even by GW standards.
p5freak wrote: Move isn't the same as move. The word wound has many different meanings.
Which may matter in the last thing you quoted, except that it said may not move any further, not move. Unless you're saying move isn't the same as move, which is ridiculous.
Breton wrote: Well that’s not entirely true. Any model with FLY can leave the within 1” - as long as they travel OVER any/all models within that 1” without falling back. This fly/Aircraft FAQ was incredibly stupid. Even by GW standards.
This is not supported by the rules in any way. The ability to move over units as if they are not there in no way negates the fact that models with Fly cannot move at all if there is an enemy model within 1" of it at the beginning of it's move unless it performs a Fall Back move.
p5freak wrote: Move isn't the same as move. The word wound has many different meanings.
Which may matter in the last thing you quoted, except that it said may not move any further, not move. Unless you're saying move isn't the same as move, which is ridiculous.
Move isn't the same as move is ridiculous, but wound not being the same as wound isn't ?
The rule, as per FAQ, clearly states to add the text to the movement phase. The problem is some people are interpreting this as it applies to all phases and some people are saying just the movement phase.
If these rules are intended to apply to every phase it means that AIRCRAFT can never be charged, even with FLY.
If they only apply to the Movement Phase then AIRCRAFT can be charged with FLY.
In my mind the correct interpretation is it only applies to the movement phase, as why shouldn't units with FLY not be able to charge AIRCRAFT?
p5freak wrote: Move isn't the same as move. The word wound has many different meanings.
Which may matter in the last thing you quoted, except that it said may not move any further, not move. Unless you're saying move isn't the same as move, which is ridiculous.
Move isn't the same as move is ridiculous, but wound not being the same as wound isn't ?
Both are ridiculous, but youir statement about Move takes it to whole new levels, given that they refer to move (not Move) in all the the rules both you and I quoted. A rule says any type of move, and I provided tules quotations showing that consolidation and pile in are types of moves, and that they refer to a charge move. The same words, the same meaning (they didn't say "any type of Move" or "any type of move in the Movement Phase")
@Dadavester - AIRBORNE has a provision written in that models with FLY can charge the AIRBORNE model
Breton wrote: Well that’s not entirely true. Any model with FLY can leave the within 1” - as long as they travel OVER any/all models within that 1” without falling back. This fly/Aircraft FAQ was incredibly stupid. Even by GW standards.
This is not supported by the rules in any way. The ability to move over units as if they are not there in no way negates the fact that models with Fly cannot move at all if there is an enemy model within 1" of it at the beginning of it's move unless it performs a Fall Back move.
models with fly can move over other models as if they’re not there during the movement phase. If you move over the model, it’s as if it’s not there, and this not within 1” the same way models that can shoot as if they didn’t move.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dadavester wrote: The rule, as per FAQ, clearly states to add the text to the movement phase. The problem is some people are interpreting this as it applies to all phases and some people are saying just the movement phase.
If these rules are intended to apply to every phase it means that AIRCRAFT can never be charged, even with FLY.
If they only apply to the Movement Phase then AIRCRAFT can be charged with FLY.
In my mind the correct interpretation is it only applies to the movement phase, as why shouldn't units with FLY not be able to charge AIRCRAFT?
. And you’re talking RAI. The correct interpretation is you can’t ensnare an aircraft. Failing that, we’re both playing RAW, and you can’t charge, pile-in, consolidate etc aircraft.
p5freak wrote: Move isn't the same as move. The word wound has many different meanings.
Which may matter in the last thing you quoted, except that it said may not move any further, not move. Unless you're saying move isn't the same as move, which is ridiculous.
Move isn't the same as move is ridiculous, but wound not being the same as wound isn't ?
Both are ridiculous, but youir statement about Move takes it to whole new levels, given that they refer to move (not Move) in all the the rules both you and I quoted. A rule says any type of move, and I provided tules quotations showing that consolidation and pile in are types of moves, and that they refer to a charge move. The same words, the same meaning (they didn't say "any type of Move" or "any type of move in the Movement Phase")
@Dadavester - AIRBORNE has a provision written in that models with FLY can charge the AIRBORNE model
They want to RAI in their favor and RAW against your favor.
And RAW the AIRCRAFT provision both allows models with Fly to charge AIRCRAFT and requires those charges then fail... because even with FLY no model can end any kind of move within 1” of aircraft. So you can declare the charge, but you must fail because you can’t end with it 1”.
I’m not saying it’s a good rule, just that that IS the rule, and we do t get to RAI something’s and RAW anything else when RAI doesn’t go our way.
So again,
1) You can charge and attack aircraft units with models that have the Fly keyword.
2) You can consolidate/or pile into an aircraft unit without the Fly keyword. However you can't attack them...
3) Aircraft have to fall back from non-aircraft or die.
Breton wrote: Well that’s not entirely true. Any model with FLY can leave the within 1” - as long as they travel OVER any/all models within that 1” without falling back. This fly/Aircraft FAQ was incredibly stupid. Even by GW standards.
This is not supported by the rules in any way. The ability to move over units as if they are not there in no way negates the fact that models with Fly cannot move at all if there is an enemy model within 1" of it at the beginning of it's move unless it performs a Fall Back move.
models with fly can move over other models as if they’re not there during the movement phase. If you move over the model, it’s as if it’s not there, and this not within 1” the same way models that can shoot as if they didn’t move.
Your contains a logical error. Just because you can move across them as if they are were not there does not mean you ignore them for all purposes. You still can't end your move within 1" enemy models if you Fly. They are still within 1" of you before you move, which means you cannot move (across them or not) until you declare you are going to Fall Back.
ThatMG wrote: So again,
1) You can charge and attack aircraft units with models that have the Fly keyword.
2) You can consolidate/or pile into an aircraft unit without the Fly keyword. However you can't attack them...
3) Aircraft have to fall back from non-aircraft or die.
So Again,
1) you can charge an aircraft if you have the FLY rule, but that charge must fail by rule as you can't end any kind of move within 1"
2) You can consolidate and/or pile into an aircraft with the Fly Rule or Not, but you cannot end a Consolidate or Pile-in within 1"
3) Aircraft have to fall back if an enemy model is within 1"- UNLESS it can move OVER any and/or every enemy model within 1", BUT those models can only get to within 1" via actions by the aircraft itself.
4) Trying to summarize your RAI as the rules doesn't make it any more accurate than claiming your RAI as the rules in the first place.
Your contains a logical error. Just because you can move across them as if they are were not there does not mean you ignore them for all purposes. You still can't end your move within 1" enemy models if you Fly. They are still within 1" of you before you move, which means you cannot move (across them or not) until you declare you are going to Fall Back.
That's your RAI not the RAW - "as if they're not there" - if they're not there, there's no requirement to "fall back". It's silly, but that's how it's written. Just like snaring an airplane that can drag you through the air at 25,000 feet and 600+ miles per hour with a bear trap will make it crash is silly.
Breton, you can repeat this a million times, it will not become true. Yes, it's stupid that an aircraft can be trapped by master of snares, it's also stupid that an aircraft gets auto hit by a flamers, but that's the rules.
p5freak wrote: Breton, you can repeat this a million times, it will not become true. Yes, it's stupid that an aircraft can be trapped by master of snares, it's also stupid that an aircraft gets auto hit by a flamers, but that's the rules.
It is true. A model may not end any kind of move within 1" of Aircraft. Its in the FAQ in black and white. If it weren't you wouldn't be trying so hard to RAI it with text that isn't there.
p5freak wrote: Breton, you can repeat this a million times, it will not become true. Yes, it's stupid that an aircraft can be trapped by master of snares, it's also stupid that an aircraft gets auto hit by a flamers, but that's the rules.
It is true. A model may not end any kind of move within 1" of Aircraft. Its in the FAQ in black and white. If it weren't you wouldn't be trying so hard to RAI it with text that isn't there.
Again if you cannot end any kind of move within 1" you cannot successfully charge them. The AIRBOURNE rule gives permission to charge, but you charge will always fail as, in your interpretation, you cannot end ANY move within 1"
Also the AIRCRAFT rule itself details how to handle enemy AIRCRAFT with 1". If you cannot get within 1", as you mantain,
why do you need that last rule?
Saying the AIRCRAFT rule applies to all phases breaks the AIRBOURNE rule, breaks all charges whenever you pass within a inch of an AIRCRAFT and ignores the last part of the AIRCRAFT rule detailing what to do if within one inch.
If you only apply the aircraft rule to the movement phase then all these things works.
p5freak wrote: Breton, you can repeat this a million times, it will not become true. Yes, it's stupid that an aircraft can be trapped by master of snares, it's also stupid that an aircraft gets auto hit by a flamers, but that's the rules.
It is true. A model may not end any kind of move within 1" of Aircraft. Its in the FAQ in black and white. If it weren't you wouldn't be trying so hard to RAI it with text that isn't there.
Only in the movement phase.
Can a mod please lock this ? This guy is unable to understand that certain rules are for certain phases ONLY.
p5freak wrote: Breton, you can repeat this a million times, it will not become true. Yes, it's stupid that an aircraft can be trapped by master of snares, it's also stupid that an aircraft gets auto hit by a flamers, but that's the rules.
It is true. A model may not end any kind of move within 1" of Aircraft. Its in the FAQ in black and white. If it weren't you wouldn't be trying so hard to RAI it with text that isn't there.
Again if you cannot end any kind of move within 1" you cannot successfully charge them. The AIRBOURNE rule gives permission to charge, but you charge will always fail as, in your interpretation, you cannot end ANY move within 1"
Also the AIRCRAFT rule itself details how to handle enemy AIRCRAFT with 1". If you cannot get within 1", as you mantain,
why do you need that last rule?
Saying the AIRCRAFT rule applies to all phases breaks the AIRBOURNE rule, breaks all charges whenever you pass within a inch of an AIRCRAFT and ignores the last part of the AIRCRAFT rule detailing what to do if within one inch.
If you only apply the aircraft rule to the movement phase then all these things works.
1)This is true, you can change, but you must fail.
2) The Aircraft itself could consilidate/pile-in within 1" of another model - but no the Aircraft rule details how to handle enemy models within 1" not enemy aircraft. You're still putting language that isn't there - there.
3) This is not the first time, and will definitely not be the last time a GW rule breaks itself.
Can a mod please lock this ? This guy is unable to understand that certain rules are for certain phases ONLY.
Can a mod please lock this? This guy is unable to understand he doesn't get to add more words to a RAW because he doesn't like the result. Alternatively you could quit replying with a RAI that isn't the RAW and complaining when people point out it's not the RAW.
You are saying that even though the rule is in the Movement Phase, it applies to all phases as it does not state movement phase only.
So, no where in the psyhic phase does it state the rules only apply to the psyhic phase, so following your logic they apply to all phases and I can cast smites in every single phase?
You are saying that even though the rule is in the Movement Phase, it applies to all phases as it does not state movement phase only.
So, no where in the psyhic phase does it state the rules only apply to the psyhic phase, so following your logic they apply to all phases and I can cast smites in every single phase?
Just like how in the movement phase you can't move a model through other models, but in other phases you can.
BRB, Movement Phase, Moving Header wrote:A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery
You are saying that even though the rule is in the Movement Phase, it applies to all phases as it does not state movement phase only.
So, no where in the psyhic phase does it state the rules only apply to the psyhic phase, so following your logic they apply to all phases and I can cast smites in every single phase?
Just like how in the movement phase you can't move a model through other models, but in other phases you can.
BRB, Movement Phase, Moving Header wrote:A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery
That does not answer my question? Can i smite in the movement phase?
To answer your question, there are many abilities that allow you to Move in other phases EG Tryanid 'Hive Commander' These abilities state AS IF MOVEMENT PHASE, so no you cannot move through models in other phases.
Again if the AIRCRAFT rules applies only to the movement phase the rules work. If you try and apply the AIRCRAFT rule to all the phases you start to break many other rules. It is obvious how it should apply.
Again if the AIRCRAFT rules applies only to the movement phase the rules work. If you try and apply the AIRCRAFT rule to all the phases you start to break many other rules. It is obvious how it should apply.
I'd say it's obvious how the snare rule should apply. But if we can't agree on the RAI, we're stuck with the RAW.
The AIRCRAFT rule itself has generic rules, and Specifically IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE rules contained there-in. Thus the AIRCRAFT rules that don't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE apply outside the movement phase. And you are correct, it breaks a whole lot of things it shouldn't. I'd blame GW and the people who want to ensnare an airplane if I were you.
Again if the AIRCRAFT rules applies only to the movement phase the rules work. If you try and apply the AIRCRAFT rule to all the phases you start to break many other rules. It is obvious how it should apply.
I'd say it's obvious how the snare rule should apply. But if we can't agree on the RAI, we're stuck with the RAW.
The AIRCRAFT rule itself has generic rules, and Specifically IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE rules contained there-in. Thus the AIRCRAFT rules that don't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE apply outside the movement phase. And you are correct, it breaks a whole lot of things it shouldn't. I'd blame GW and the people who want to ensnare an airplane if I were you.
Using this logic, as the psychic phase does not specify "in the psychic phase" can i smite in the movement phase?
You cannot claim RAW then add bits yourself. The AIRCRAFT rule applies to the movement phase. no where does it state it applies to all phases. If you state that because it doesn't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE it applies in all other phases, you can then smite in the movement phase.
The rules clearly states "Add the following text to the end of the Movement Phase section:" so it applies to the movement phase. applying it to all phases breaks nearly the entire game.
Again if the AIRCRAFT rules applies only to the movement phase the rules work. If you try and apply the AIRCRAFT rule to all the phases you start to break many other rules. It is obvious how it should apply.
I'd say it's obvious how the snare rule should apply. But if we can't agree on the RAI, we're stuck with the RAW.
The AIRCRAFT rule itself has generic rules, and Specifically IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE rules contained there-in. Thus the AIRCRAFT rules that don't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE apply outside the movement phase. And you are correct, it breaks a whole lot of things it shouldn't. I'd blame GW and the people who want to ensnare an airplane if I were you.
Using this logic, as the psychic phase does not specify "in the psychic phase" can i smite in the movement phase?
You cannot claim RAW then add bits yourself. The AIRCRAFT rule applies to the movement phase. no where does it state it applies to all phases. If you state that because it doesn't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE it applies in all other phases, you can then smite in the movement phase.
The rules clearly states "Add the following text to the end of the Movement Phase section:" so it applies to the movement phase. applying it to all phases breaks nearly the entire game.
I'm not adding bits. I"m reading exactly what's there. Any Kind of Move. In the Movement Phase. I'm not adding ONLY in the movment phase when it isn't there. Or that Movement Phase Rules don't apply outside of the movement phase. You guys are. When something says only in the movement phase, then it's only in the movement phase. When it doesn't, it's not.
Page 249 says the number and type of powers a psyker can manifest in the psychic phase are on the model's datasheet. Can you find a rule suggesting where to look for the powers they can manifest outside of the psychic phase? Apparently Page 249 does indeed specify "In the psychic phase".
Again if the AIRCRAFT rules applies only to the movement phase the rules work. If you try and apply the AIRCRAFT rule to all the phases you start to break many other rules. It is obvious how it should apply.
I'd say it's obvious how the snare rule should apply. But if we can't agree on the RAI, we're stuck with the RAW.
The AIRCRAFT rule itself has generic rules, and Specifically IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE rules contained there-in. Thus the AIRCRAFT rules that don't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE apply outside the movement phase. And you are correct, it breaks a whole lot of things it shouldn't. I'd blame GW and the people who want to ensnare an airplane if I were you.
Using this logic, as the psychic phase does not specify "in the psychic phase" can i smite in the movement phase?
You cannot claim RAW then add bits yourself. The AIRCRAFT rule applies to the movement phase. no where does it state it applies to all phases. If you state that because it doesn't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE it applies in all other phases, you can then smite in the movement phase.
The rules clearly states "Add the following text to the end of the Movement Phase section:" so it applies to the movement phase. applying it to all phases breaks nearly the entire game.
I'm not adding bits. I"m reading exactly what's there. Any Kind of Move. In the Movement Phase. I'm not adding ONLY in the movment phase when it isn't there. Or that Movement Phase Rules don't apply outside of the movement phase. You guys are. When something says only in the movement phase, then it's only in the movement phase. When it doesn't, it's not.
Page 249 says the number and type of powers a psyker can manifest in the psychic phase are on the model's datasheet. Can you find a rule suggesting where to look for the powers they can manifest outside of the psychic phase? Apparently Page 249 does indeed specify "In the psychic phase".
Ok, fair point on psykers.
No where in the Movement phase does it state that moving a model only applies to the movement phase? So I can move a model every phase then? If, as you say, rules in the movement phase apply to every phase UNLESS stated otherwise I can move a model in the Shooting phase.
The Rules for AIRCRAFT state to add it to the movement phase. Myself, and others, interpret this as meaning it applies to the movement phase only. You, and some others, say it applies to every phase as it doesn't specify "Only in the movement phase." Again using this logic I can now move in the shooting phase, as no where in the movement phase does it state the rules for moving only apply to the movement phase.
No where in the Movement phase does it state that moving a model only applies to the movement phase?
Well Page 247 specifically says it's not the only phase you can move a model. Page 248 "advancing" also has an issue if you're going to claim movement phase rules only apply in the movement phase.
So I can move a model every phase then?
There are Psychic powers that allow you to move. I'm not sure what would allow you to move in the Shooting phase, but it's possible. Page 247 says you can move in the Charge Phase and the Fight Phase. I'm not sure where you're goin with this, but you might want to read the rules you want to ask about before you end up with another psychic phase fiasco.
If, as you say, rules in the movement phase apply to every phase UNLESS stated otherwise I can move a model in the Shooting phase.
Page 247 also says Start your movement phase... So the movememnt phase rules allowing moving the models does get limited to the movement phase. Uh oh, its the psychic phase thing all over again. Really you should read these things first.
The Rules for AIRCRAFT state to add it to the movement phase. Myself, and others, interpret this as meaning it applies to the movement phase only. You, and some others, say it applies to every phase as it doesn't specify "Only in the movement phase." Again using this logic I can now move in the shooting phase, as no where in the movement phase does it state the rules for moving only apply to the movement phase.
You can move in the shooting phase if you can find a rule that says move in the shooting phase. The rules for moving in the movememnt phase say Start your movement phase...
You keep trying to add "In the movement phase where it's not, and not seeing "in the X phase" when it is there. What's your next attempt?
No where in the Movement phase does it state that moving a model only applies to the movement phase?
Well Page 247 specifically says it's not the only phase you can move a model. Page 248 "advancing" also has an issue if you're going to claim movement phase rules only apply in the movement phase.
So I can move a model every phase then?
There are Psychic powers that allow you to move. I'm not sure what would allow you to move in the Shooting phase, but it's possible. Page 247 says you can move in the Charge Phase and the Fight Phase. I'm not sure where you're goin with this, but you might want to read the rules you want to ask about before you end up with another psychic phase fiasco.
If, as you say, rules in the movement phase apply to every phase UNLESS stated otherwise I can move a model in the Shooting phase.
Page 247 also says Start your movement phase... So the movememnt phase rules allowing moving the models does get limited to the movement phase. Uh oh, its the psychic phase thing all over again. Really you should read these things first.
The Rules for AIRCRAFT state to add it to the movement phase. Myself, and others, interpret this as meaning it applies to the movement phase only. You, and some others, say it applies to every phase as it doesn't specify "Only in the movement phase." Again using this logic I can now move in the shooting phase, as no where in the movement phase does it state the rules for moving only apply to the movement phase.
You can move in the shooting phase if you can find a rule that says move in the shooting phase. The rules for moving in the movememnt phase say Start your movement phase...
You keep trying to add "In the movement phase where it's not, and not seeing "in the X phase" when it is there. What's your next attempt?
You are missing my point.
The rules for AIRCRAFT state to, "add the following text to the end of the movement phase section." So in my reading of this it applies to the movement phase only as it is in the rules for the movement phase.
You are saying that because this does not state it applies to only the movement phase it applies to all phases.
My counter argument to that is no where in the movement phase does it state moving a model happens only in the movement phase. So according to your logic I can, in the shooting phase, select a a unit and move it just like normal?
Again if the AIRCRAFT rules applies only to the movement phase the rules work. If you try and apply the AIRCRAFT rule to all the phases you start to break many other rules. It is obvious how it should apply.
I'd say it's obvious how the snare rule should apply. But if we can't agree on the RAI, we're stuck with the RAW.
The AIRCRAFT rule itself has generic rules, and Specifically IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE rules contained there-in. Thus the AIRCRAFT rules that don't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE apply outside the movement phase. And you are correct, it breaks a whole lot of things it shouldn't. I'd blame GW and the people who want to ensnare an airplane if I were you.
Using this logic, as the psychic phase does not specify "in the psychic phase" can i smite in the movement phase?
You cannot claim RAW then add bits yourself. The AIRCRAFT rule applies to the movement phase. no where does it state it applies to all phases. If you state that because it doesn't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE it applies in all other phases, you can then smite in the movement phase.
The rules clearly states "Add the following text to the end of the Movement Phase section:" so it applies to the movement phase. applying it to all phases breaks nearly the entire game.
The psyker phase has already been answered and acknowledged, so I won't go into that.
What about other types of movement? Charging, pile in, and consolidate? If the restriction on not being able to move through models only exists in the movement phase as you assert, then that means you are allowed to move through models for charging, pile in, and consolidation.
Again if the AIRCRAFT rules applies only to the movement phase the rules work. If you try and apply the AIRCRAFT rule to all the phases you start to break many other rules. It is obvious how it should apply.
I'd say it's obvious how the snare rule should apply. But if we can't agree on the RAI, we're stuck with the RAW.
The AIRCRAFT rule itself has generic rules, and Specifically IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE rules contained there-in. Thus the AIRCRAFT rules that don't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE apply outside the movement phase. And you are correct, it breaks a whole lot of things it shouldn't. I'd blame GW and the people who want to ensnare an airplane if I were you.
Using this logic, as the psychic phase does not specify "in the psychic phase" can i smite in the movement phase?
You cannot claim RAW then add bits yourself. The AIRCRAFT rule applies to the movement phase. no where does it state it applies to all phases. If you state that because it doesn't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE it applies in all other phases, you can then smite in the movement phase.
The rules clearly states "Add the following text to the end of the Movement Phase section:" so it applies to the movement phase. applying it to all phases breaks nearly the entire game.
The psyker phase has already been answered and acknowledged, so I won't go into that.
What about other types of movement? Charging, pile in, and consolidate? If the restriction on not being able to move through models only exists in the movement phase as you assert, then that means you are allowed to move through models for charging, pile in, and consolidation.
So either way the rules are broken? As your way I can move in every single phase due to there being no "In the movement phase" restriction on selecting a model to move?
It comes down to, again, that one reading of the rules does not allow you to be within 1" of an AIRCRAFT or charge anyone if you were ever within 1" of an AIRCRAFT that turn. The other reading always you to get within 1" (using flying units as per the AIRBOURNE rule) and allows you to charge if you have passed with 1" of an AIRCRAFT.
Heres the litteral RAW from the Main rulebook errata :
Spoiler:
Page 177 – Movement Phase
Add the following text to the end of the Movement
phase section:
‘Aircraft
If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move
characteristic (or if it has a damage table on
its datasheet that includes any minimum Move
characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be
moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be
moved across such models (and their bases) as if they
were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of
another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move
within 1" of any enemy units.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement
phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are
Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not
have to Fall Back in order to move).’
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be
moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, alright, i can consolidate/pile into an aircraft, still wont be able to hit it unless i have the fly keyword.
You have to use the entire sentence: "Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units."
To put it shortly, Breton is RAW right when it comes to not being able to end a Charge, Pile In, or Consolidation move within 1" of enemy Aircraft because the rule fails to state "during the Movement Phase."
He's still wrong about Fly allowing models move without making a Fall Back move if the start their movement within 1" of Enemy Models. The ability to "move across as if not there" is not the same as ignoring them entirely.
No where in the Movement phase does it state that moving a model only applies to the movement phase?
Well Page 247 specifically says it's not the only phase you can move a model. Page 248 "advancing" also has an issue if you're going to claim movement phase rules only apply in the movement phase.
So I can move a model every phase then?
There are Psychic powers that allow you to move. I'm not sure what would allow you to move in the Shooting phase, but it's possible. Page 247 says you can move in the Charge Phase and the Fight Phase. I'm not sure where you're goin with this, but you might want to read the rules you want to ask about before you end up with another psychic phase fiasco.
If, as you say, rules in the movement phase apply to every phase UNLESS stated otherwise I can move a model in the Shooting phase.
Page 247 also says Start your movement phase... So the movememnt phase rules allowing moving the models does get limited to the movement phase. Uh oh, its the psychic phase thing all over again. Really you should read these things first.
The Rules for AIRCRAFT state to add it to the movement phase. Myself, and others, interpret this as meaning it applies to the movement phase only. You, and some others, say it applies to every phase as it doesn't specify "Only in the movement phase." Again using this logic I can now move in the shooting phase, as no where in the movement phase does it state the rules for moving only apply to the movement phase.
You can move in the shooting phase if you can find a rule that says move in the shooting phase. The rules for moving in the movememnt phase say Start your movement phase...
You keep trying to add "In the movement phase where it's not, and not seeing "in the X phase" when it is there. What's your next attempt?
You are missing my point.
The rules for AIRCRAFT state to, "add the following text to the end of the movement phase section." So in my reading of this it applies to the movement phase only as it is in the rules for the movement phase.
You are saying that because this does not state it applies to only the movement phase it applies to all phases.
My counter argument to that is no where in the movement phase does it state moving a model happens only in the movement phase. So according to your logic I can, in the shooting phase, select a a unit and move it just like normal?
From different sections in the Movement Phase rules
Minimum move. "Some models that can FLY" have a Move characteristic consisting of two values. the first is the model's minimum speed - in the Movement phase,..."
Enemy Models: "When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved ..."
Advancing "Wen you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase,"
Just a few examples where it states "in the Movement phase" for movement related things.
To counter your counter argument, you can select a unit and move it just like normal if you have a special rule that lets you move, just like you could use psyker abilities outside the psyker phase if you had a special ability giving you permission to do so outside the psyker phase. These are strawman arguments, however. We are not dealing with being given permission to do something outside the phase, we are dealing with a restriction on movement that states any kind of move (much like having to end in certain coherency "after any sort of move"). The prohibition is not stated to be limited to the Movement phase, and I've given examples of premissions and prohibitions that do say "in the Movement phase" even with it being in the Movement phase section. That means the prohibition would still be in effect. Now they might end up editing this in the future, or changing it with the next Big FAQ, but as it stands you have a prohibition which we are told applies to any sort of move.
AIRBORNE give you explicit permission if you have FLY to charge an aircraft, so that would override the prohibition (to deal with one of your other arguments)
Im not trying to add that at all. What i am say is that the rule itself is added to the movement phase therefore ONLY applies in the movement phase.
@doctortom - I think you need to read the rules better. If what you are saying is true, AIRBOURNE does not give FLY permission to override the prohibition, it gives AIRBOURNE permission to be charged by FLY. The new AIRCRAFT rule does not allow you to be within 1" therefore your charge always fails (or at least that is what breton and others are saying and i disagree with).
You apply the movement phase rules to the movement phase, this means that AIRCRAFT applies to the movement phase and units can move within 1" of AIRCRAFT.
And I reject what you're saying as per the evidence of saying "in the movement phase" in several of the rules in the movement phase. If they meant it to apply only in the movement phase, they would have included "in the movement phase" in the restriction.
doctortom wrote: And I reject what you're saying as per the evidence of saying "in the movement phase" in several of the rules in the movement phase. If they meant it to apply only in the movement phase, they would have included "in the movement phase" in the restriction.
So with that logic, it does not say "in the movement phase" when moving a unit. So I can move my entire army again in every phase?
My counter argument to that is no where in the movement phase does it state moving a model happens only in the movement phase. So according to your logic I can, in the shooting phase, select a a unit and move it just like normal?
The reason it doesn't say that in the rules for the movement phase is - you can move models outside of the movement phase.
As for if you can just choose to move models outside the movement phase without another rule "unlocking them"...
The rules "unlocking" moving models in the movement phase rules states "Start your movement phase..." limiting the unlock of moving models to the movement phase with that rule. Later it says no model may be moved twice in the movement phase. IF you have a rule that allows movement in the shooting phase - like the old Tau Jet Packs that allowed their units to move out in the movement phase, shoot, then then jet back into cover after - moving in the shooting phase is possible.
He's still wrong about Fly allowing models move without making a Fall Back move if the start their movement within 1" of Enemy Models. The ability to "move across as if not there" is not the same as ignoring them entirely.
You only have to fall back if there's a model within 1" - if they're not there, you don't have to fall back - and in fact I'm not even sure you could CHOOSE to fall back if they aren't there. If you shoot as if you haven't moved, the conditions for moving don't apply. If you move as if not within 1", the conditions for 1" are not there.
That is often enough the case, that my response to people trying to do something shady by the RAW usually works. Everybody wants to RAI the rules that are written stupidly so they can play the game the way they want to and think it should work. Few will want to RAW an edge scenario like ensnaring an AIRCRAFT more than they want to RAI being able to charge it, fight it, and shoot their pistols and assault weapons. When forced to choose between a compromise RAI, and both players using a soul crushing RAW, most people pick the RAI.
As your way I can move in every single phase due to there being no "In the movement phase" restriction on selecting a model to move?
Well, there's the part about "Start your movement phase..." limiting the permissions from the movement phase to move models to the movement phase, but as already agreed, there are ways to move models in other phases.
It comes down to, again, that one reading of the rules does not allow you to be within 1" of an AIRCRAFT or charge anyone if you were ever within 1" of an AIRCRAFT that turn. The other reading always you to get within 1" (using flying units as per the AIRBOURNE rule) and allows you to charge if you have passed with 1" of an AIRCRAFT.
My belief is RAW is the latter.
Your belief is RAI is the latter. The RAW is black and white. Without an expressed limitation, no model may end their move within 1" of an enemy AIRCRAFT etc.
My counter argument to that is no where in the movement phase does it state moving a model happens only in the movement phase. So according to your logic I can, in the shooting phase, select a a unit and move it just like normal?
The reason it doesn't say that in the rules for the movement phase is - you can move models outside of the movement phase.
As for if you can just choose to move models outside the movement phase without another rule "unlocking them"...
The rules "unlocking" moving models in the movement phase rules states "Start your movement phase..." limiting the unlock of moving models to the movement phase with that rule. Later it says no model may be moved twice in the movement phase. IF you have a rule that allows movement in the shooting phase - like the old Tau Jet Packs that allowed their units to move out in the movement phase, shoot, then then jet back into cover after - moving in the shooting phase is possible.
He's still wrong about Fly allowing models move without making a Fall Back move if the start their movement within 1" of Enemy Models. The ability to "move across as if not there" is not the same as ignoring them entirely.
You only have to fall back if there's a model within 1" - if they're not there, you don't have to fall back - and in fact I'm not even sure you could CHOOSE to fall back if they aren't there. If you shoot as if you haven't moved, the conditions for moving don't apply. If you move as if not within 1", the conditions for 1" are not there.
That is often enough the case, that my response to people trying to do something shady by the RAW usually works. Everybody wants to RAI the rules that are written stupidly so they can play the game the way they want to and think it should work. Few will want to RAW an edge scenario like ensnaring an AIRCRAFT more than they want to RAI being able to charge it, fight it, and shoot their pistols and assault weapons. When forced to choose between a compromise RAI, and both players using a soul crushing RAW, most people pick the RAI.
As your way I can move in every single phase due to there being no "In the movement phase" restriction on selecting a model to move?
Well, there's the part about "Start your movement phase..." limiting the permissions from the movement phase to move models to the movement phase, but as already agreed, there are ways to move models in other phases.
It comes down to, again, that one reading of the rules does not allow you to be within 1" of an AIRCRAFT or charge anyone if you were ever within 1" of an AIRCRAFT that turn. The other reading always you to get within 1" (using flying units as per the AIRBOURNE rule) and allows you to charge if you have passed with 1" of an AIRCRAFT.
My belief is RAW is the latter.
Your belief is RAI is the latter. The RAW is black and white. Without an expressed limitation, no model may end their move within 1" of an enemy AIRCRAFT etc.
No, RAW is you add the rule to the movement phase.
And myself, and others, say it applies only to the movement phase due to it being included in that phase.
You say that movement phase rules apply to every phase unless stated. The downside of that is that there is no reatriction on movement. So by your logic i can move my entire army in every phase. And no the " Start you movement phase by selecting a model to move" is not a restriction on moving in other phases, it just tells you how to start the phase.
So either the AIRCRAFT rule applies to the Movement phase only, or it applies to mutliple phases and breaks several rules.
No, RAW is you add the rule to the movement phase.
And myself, and others, say it applies only to the movement phase due to it being included in that phase.
You say that movement phase rules apply to every phase unless stated. The downside of that is that there is no reatriction on movement. So by your logic i can move my entire army in every phase. And no the " Start you movement phase by selecting a model to move" is not a restriction on moving in other phases, it just tells you how to start the phase.
So either the AIRCRAFT rule applies to the Movement phase only, or it applies to mutliple phases and breaks several rules.
Where's the RAW that says it only applies to the movement phase? That's what you're adding. There is not rule stating rules in the movement phase section only apply to the movement phase section.
And myself, and others, say it isn't limited to the movement phase due to it NOT being included in that phase. I can bandwagon appeal too.
There IS a restriction on movement. You quoted it yourself, but now you're pretending it doesn't exist. It says Start Your Movement phase... There are other rules that allow you to move in other phases. The Shooting Phase rules however do not say Start Your Shooting phase by moving models. It doesn't restrict moving in other phases because moving in other phases is allowed.
The Aircraft Rule applies in both the movement phase, and parts of it through all phases. And yes, it "breaks" several rules so they no longer function properly if at all. So does the Advance/Assault rule. And the Pistols/1" rule. That's the problem with being unflinchingly RAW. And as I've pointed out over and over, if you want to RAW the ensnare gaffe GW made, you're going to RAW everything else because I'm not going to agree to RAW'ing what screws me, and RAI'ing what helps you. We can have some give and take RAI, or we can go full on RAW. Ironically their awful RAW rules make a very effective carrot and stick for getting people to compromise on the RAI. Now who wants to ensnare an Aircraft?
doctortom wrote: And I reject what you're saying as per the evidence of saying "in the movement phase" in several of the rules in the movement phase. If they meant it to apply only in the movement phase, they would have included "in the movement phase" in the restriction.
And as evidence, I reject what you’re saying.
Yes a lot of the rules for the movement phase says “in the movement phase” but how else would they write the rules if they can’t add that part at all. It’s just silly as it’s easy and straightforward rule making.
And by your logic. All movement apply to all phases. Then why add that FLY can charge over other units in the charge phase when the movement rule of FLY all ready got this? Makes no sense at all.
To be fair, the rule is badly written and can be read both ways. Let’s just email GW about it and end this discussion. We’re just going in circles anyway.
Conclusion: The aircraft rule is only valid in the movement phase.
Thus any model can lock Aircraft outside of said phase in the previous mentioned ways.
This is the raw, an leaves far less issues of "applies to all phases."
The interpretation is
1) "Any kind of move" (in the movement phase, related change. REF: "Page 177 – Movement Phase" [Insert aircraft rules])
vs
2) "Any kind of move" (Any phase)
2) The game can break and stops rules functioning.
1) Works and the rules function, regardless if it is "not thematic."
1: is the obvious way to play. The only reason I see someone prolonging this conversation past the FUNCTIONAL raw at this point is if they have a multi-flyer list and just can't deal with a valid counter/weakness.
I can't believe how long this has been going on (ok, I can, this is DakkaDakka ). Here are the Movement phase rules, errata included, in their entirety.
Spoiler:
1. Movement Phase
Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase. No part of a model or its base can be set up or moved over the edge of the battlefield.
Moving
A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery.
If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during the Movement phase it can move across models as if they were not there, and when moving across terrain features, vertical distance is not counted against the total it can move (i.e. moving vertically is free for this model in the Movement phase). If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during the Charge phase it can move across models (other than Buildings) as if they were not there.
Minimum Move
Some models that can Fly have a Move characteristic consisting of two values. The first is the model’s minimum speed– in the Movement phase, all parts of the model’s base must end the move at least that far from where they started. The second is its maximum speed – no part of the model’s base can be moved further than this. If a model cannot make its minimum move, or is forced to move off the battlefield because of its minimum speed, it is destroyed and removed from the battlefield – the model has either stalled and crashed or been forced to abandon the battle.
Enemy Models
All models in the same army are friendly models. Models controlled by an opposing player are enemy models. When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models.
Falling Back
Units starting the Movement phase within 1" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or Fall Back. If you choose to Fall Back, the unit must end its move more than 1" away from all enemy units. If a unit Falls Back, it cannot Advance (see below), or charge later that turn. A unit that Falls Back also cannot shoot later that turn unless it can Fly.
Advancing
When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that Movement phase. A unit that Advances can’t shoot or charge later that turn.
Aircraft
If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move characteristic (or if it has a damage table on its datasheet that includes any minimum Move characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).
Why post this? For common reference and to allow everyone to see for themselves a few points:
1. Some of the rules in the Movement Phase apply only to the Movement Phase. Notably, part of Fly, and all of Minimum Move,Enemy Models, Falling Back, and Advancing as specifically noted in each section.
2. No such restriction is noted anywhere in Aircraft.
This means, as much as it galls me, the RAW of Aircraft actually forbids you end your move within 1" of an Aircraft at all times. GW needs to errata the last sentence of the second paragraph to read "..., and during the Movement phase it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy models."
Likewise, I guess the guys saying that rules only apply in the phase corresponding to the section they are in are saying that enemy models are only defined as enemy in the movement phase and friendly models are only defined as friendly during the same. The rest of the game those definitions don't apply because the rules are only located in the section for the movement phase. Man, that is gonna throw a monkey wrench in a few things
ThatMG wrote: Conclusion: The aircraft rule is only valid in the movement phase.
Thus any model can lock Aircraft outside of said phase in the previous mentioned ways.
This is the raw, an leaves far less issues of "applies to all phases."
The interpretation is
1) "Any kind of move" (in the movement phase, related change. REF: "Page 177 – Movement Phase" [Insert aircraft rules])
vs
2) "Any kind of move" (Any phase)
2) The game can break and stops rules functioning.
1) Works and the rules function, regardless if it is "not thematic."
1: is the obvious way to play. The only reason I see someone prolonging this conversation past the FUNCTIONAL raw at this point is if they have a multi-flyer list and just can't deal with a valid counter/weakness.
Conclusion, you want a cheesy shortcut to deal with flyers because you run a list that can't do so normally - I too can suggest ulterior motives for holding a position. For the record I do not yet have even one assembled, painted, and ready for play flyer. I have a Stormwing formation still sitting in boxes on my project bench, but they're not high on the priority list. I object to backdoor assaulting an Aircraft and snaring them on Suspension of Disbelief grounds, not personal use.
1) "FUNCTIONAL RAW" sounds an awful lot like RAI. Adding words that aren't there, or assuming they're "supposed to be" is RAI. My RAI is you can't snare Aircraft. Your RAW is they can. As long as you want to RAW snare, I'm going to RAW Aircraft. Nobody I know is going to let you RAI the stuff that helps you and RAW the stuff that hurts them. You get to pick one. Either we all RAI in a compromise taking logic into account, or we all RAW. I'm not going to miss charging Aircraft in close combat, shooting Assault Weapons after advancing, or pistols into a within 1". RAW works for me. RAI works for me. Your move.
If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move characteristic (or if it has a damage table on its datasheet that includes any minimum Move characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).
If these rules apply in all phases you cannot charge anything, because you cant end the move within 1" of any enemy units. Unless a charge move is not any kind of move Is the intention of the second sentence that you cant end your move within 1" of any enemy aircraft ? If so the third sentence doesnt make any sense, because you can move within 1" of enemy aircraft.
If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move characteristic (or if it has a damage table on its datasheet that includes any minimum Move characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).
If these rules apply in all phases you cannot charge anything, because you cant end the move within 1" of any enemy units. Unless a charge move is not any kind of move Is the intention of the second sentence that you cant end your move within 1" of any enemy aircraft ? If so the third sentence doesnt make any sense, because you can move within 1" of enemy aircraft.
That is correct, IF you must move within 1" of an AIRCRAFT during your charge/pile-in/consolidation/move/etc move you cannot charge anything- I've already pointed this out with no small degree of schadenfreude.
If you don't then you may charge things, because the general prohibition of within 1" is specifically limited to the movement phase.
The second sentence says you can move within 1" of an aircraft, and you can move across it as if it isnt there, and you cannot end any kind of move within 1" of enemy models.
p5freak wrote: The second sentence says you can move within 1" of an aircraft, and you can move across it as if it isnt there, and you cannot end any kind of move within 1" of enemy models.
This is not the same as: "Ok, so you cant charge anything anymore, thanks GW " You can still charge "anything" just not if you need to travel within 1" of an Aircraft on the way.
Applying the rule to every phase breaks the game. It is not clear what RAW is, as shown be this discussion. Imo it is clear that that the best intrepreation of RAW is that it applies to movement phase only as that does not break other rules, or contridict its own rule.
Dadavester wrote: Applying the rule to every phase breaks the game. It is not clear what RAW is, as shown be this discussion. Imo it is clear that that the best intrepreation of RAW is that it applies to movement phase only as that does not break other rules, or contridict its own rule.
Applying the Assault Weapons, and Within 1"/Pistols rules breaks the game. It's still the RAW. Its still clear what the RAW is. Not liking the RAW is not the same as the RAW being unclear. The RAW is EXACTLY as written. Without reference to phase. No more (It only applies during the movement phase) and no less (Nobody can charge anything anymore). I don't have to like being able to ensnare a Jet Fighter several miles in the air. You don't have to like not being able to end any kind of move within 1"of an Aircraft. But they're both the RAW. Don't like enough, house rule it, and use your own RAI. But it's going to go my way on the stuff I don't like too.
Dadavester wrote: Applying the rule to every phase breaks the game. It is not clear what RAW is, as shown be this discussion. Imo it is clear that that the best intrepreation of RAW is that it applies to movement phase only as that does not break other rules, or contridict its own rule.
Applying the Assault Weapons, and Within 1"/Pistols rules breaks the game. It's still the RAW. Its still clear what the RAW is. Not liking the RAW is not the same as the RAW being unclear. The RAW is EXACTLY as written. Without reference to phase. No more (It only applies during the movement phase) and no less (Nobody can charge anything anymore). I don't have to like being able to ensnare a Jet Fighter several miles in the air. You don't have to like not being able to end any kind of move within 1"of an Aircraft. But they're both the RAW. Don't like enough, house rule it, and use your own RAI. But it's going to go my way on the stuff I don't like too.
Then tell me where exactly does it say that the AIRCRAFT rule applies to all phases?
It doesnt does it? So its not clear in the slightest what RAW is. That means we have 2 intrepretations of RAW so i will be going with the one that doesnt break the game.
ThatMG wrote: Conclusion: The aircraft rule is only valid in the movement phase.
Thus any model can lock Aircraft outside of said phase in the previous mentioned ways.
This is the raw, an leaves far less issues of "applies to all phases."
The interpretation is
1) "Any kind of move" (in the movement phase, related change. REF: "Page 177 – Movement Phase" [Insert aircraft rules])
vs
2) "Any kind of move" (Any phase)
2) The game can break and stops rules functioning.
1) Works and the rules function, regardless if it is "not thematic."
1: is the obvious way to play. The only reason I see someone prolonging this conversation past the FUNCTIONAL raw at this point is if they have a multi-flyer list and just can't deal with a valid counter/weakness.
Conclusion, you want a cheesy shortcut to deal with flyers because you run a list that can't do so normally - I too can suggest ulterior motives for holding a position. For the record I do not yet have even one assembled, painted, and ready for play flyer. I have a Stormwing formation still sitting in boxes on my project bench, but they're not high on the priority list. I object to backdoor assaulting an Aircraft and snaring them on Suspension of Disbelief grounds, not personal use.
1) "FUNCTIONAL RAW" sounds an awful lot like RAI. Adding words that aren't there, or assuming they're "supposed to be" is RAI. My RAI is you can't snare Aircraft. Your RAW is they can. As long as you want to RAW snare, I'm going to RAW Aircraft. Nobody I know is going to let you RAI the stuff that helps you and RAW the stuff that hurts them. You get to pick one. Either we all RAI in a compromise taking logic into account, or we all RAW. I'm not going to miss charging Aircraft in close combat, shooting Assault Weapons after advancing, or pistols into a within 1". RAW works for me. RAI works for me. Your move.
No, Functional RAW = The rules fuction (regardless if it is intended or not).
Non-Functional RAW = BCB's assault weapons can't shoot if you advance.../Your "all phase" narrative +many others.
You failed at deflecting. Functional > Non-Functional and if you want to force a non-functional wording the "I won't play games with you/Most important rule comes into play."
You have it backwards. All the rules apply at all times unless the rules state otherwise.
GW does not present the rules in a technical fashion, with how to do things separate from when you are allowed to do them. Instead, they write in a functional flow with the rule appearing the first time you are allowed to use them in the standard flow of play. Thus, movement rules are presented in the Movement Phase section of the rules. This is why they contain multiple rules that apply only to the Movement phase and a rule they applied only to the Charge Phase.
Then tell me where exactly does it say that the AIRCRAFT rule applies to all phases?
It doesnt does it? So its not clear in the slightest what RAW is. That means we have 2 intrepretations of RAW so i will be going with the one that doesnt break the game.
In the part where it DOESN'T say it only applies to one phase. Some parts of the Aircraft rule DOES say only in the movement phase, some parts don't. The parts that don't apply everywhere (or in the specified phase).
No, Functional RAW = The rules fuction (regardless if it is intended or not).
Non-Functional RAW = BCB's assault weapons can't shoot if you advance.../Your "all phase" narrative +many others.
You failed at deflecting.
Once again, you can't even be honest about RAW. RAW is quite literally Rules As Written. You can even hover over the yellow text, and a bubble will tell you this. Functional or Not has nothing to do with RAW. They say exactly what was written, no more and no less. There are one to two more potential Rules As - Rules as Intended - what we assume the rules writers meant but weren't talented enough to convey - and Rules As Applied - which is the more accurate description of RAI - Rules as we think they should and decide for them to work. You failed at special pleading.
By RAW you can't ever fast roll saves. By RAI or RAA - we have enough experience to know when Fast Rolling Saves may make a difference and allow it when we know it doesn't matter. By RAW you can't choose a unit to fire if it advanced, even though the models in the unit can fire with assault weapons. By RAI/RAA we (or most of we) allow units with models with assault weapons to be chosen to fire. Most of the time, we rationalize and justify this by pretending we know what perfect strangers we've never met intended. Sometimes we're honest enough to admit we just don't like the rule and call it a "house rule". Too often some of us care more about winning and try to RAW the stuff that works in our favor, and RAI/RAA the stuff we don't like.
Functional > Non-Functional and if you want to force a non-functional wording the "I won't play games with you/Most important rule comes into play."
What makes you think I'd ask you for another game after being forced into this the first time? As I've said multiple times, this only comes up if you're trying to force the RAW when it suits you, and the RAI when it suits you. I don't want to see people ensnaring Aircraft (or any other RAW abuse). If you're going to deny the RAI/RAA for a quick and cheesy kill, I'm going to deny it for anything else so the playing field is level.
The only people being dishonest and are trying to game advantage are the people bringing up RAI to muddy the waters. Or pushing "all phase rules" narrative.
RAI does not come into the debate when you have functional RAW.
Non functional RAW is when an action can or can't take place because the wording of the rules have broken the game. (From a computational standpoint)
Non-functional RAW is where HIWPI or RAI (speculation) can effect the game.
I don't want to see people ensnaring Aircraft
You played your hand here. What you want does not matter in the context of the rules. The fact remains is that locking Aircraft outside of the movement phase IS a valid way to play the game as it is functional. Your personal opinions does not change this, an would be subject to "An agreement between two players at the start of the game".
Anything more than this is just phycological posturing that has no purpose in this debate.
ThatMG wrote: The only people being dishonest and are trying to game advantage are the people bringing up RAI to muddy the waters. Or pushing "all phase rules" narrative.
RAI does not come into the debate when you have functional RAW.
Non functional RAW is when an action can or can't take place because the wording of the rules have broken the game. (From a computational standpoint)
Non-functional RAW is where HIWPI or RAI (speculation) can effect the game.
you mean like ensnaring an airplane several miles up in the air?
I don't want to see people ensnaring Aircraft
You played your hand here. What you want does not matter in the context of the rules. The fact remains is that locking Aircraft outside of the movement phase IS a valid way to play the game as it is functional. Your personal opinions does not change this, an would be subject to "An agreement between two players at the start of the game".
You played your hand here. What you want does not matter in the context of the rules. The fact remains that locking an aircraft inside or outside of the movement phase is prohibited by the rules. Your personal opinions do not change this and would be subject to an agreement between two players at the start of the game.
Anything more than this is just phycological posturing that has no purpose in this debate.
. Anything less than that would be cherry picking the rules that favor you over the ones that don’t.
Page 57 – Master of Snares
Change this Warlord Trait to read:
‘When an enemy unit (other than a unit that contains a
model with a minimum Move characteristic) within 1" of
this Warlord is chosen to Fall Back, you can roll one D6;
on a 4+ that unit cannot Fall Back this turn.’
So, master of snares no longer works on a flyer. Unless the flyer is on its last bracket, where it no longer has a minimum move characteristic
eparedes0785 wrote: I totally expected this outcome. I can't understand how pple defended the opposing view.
I wasnt defending you could kill aircraft with snares. I was defending you could get within 1inch of an aircraft. How the snares rule was written that allowed it to be destroyed on a 4+
Totally expected this FAQ, however i believe this reinforces the view that you can get with 1inch on an AIRCRAFT.
eparedes0785 wrote: I totally expected this outcome. I can't understand how pple defended the opposing view.
I wasnt defending you could kill aircraft with snares. I was defending you could get within 1inch of an aircraft. How the snares rule was written that allowed it to be destroyed on a 4+
Totally expected this FAQ, however i believe this reinforces the view that you can get with 1inch on an AIRCRAFT.
eparedes0785 wrote: I totally expected this outcome. I can't understand how pple defended the opposing view.
the change in the faq confirms that raw was correct aircraft would die if they where effected.
FAQ just now makes it so minimum movement units are not effected.
Nobody said the RAW was incorrect (Some people said it was broken, or tried to add more than there was), or that Aircraft couldn't be affected. The RAW is always "correct" and we stipulated the AIRCRAFT could be affected, just that the only way to INITIATE the required conditions of the ability was if the AIRCRAFT did the moving, not the enemy model. IF an Aicraft moved within 1" of the enemy model, it could have been ensnared (before the FAQ) - but by RAW the enemy model couldn't have moved (and ended) within 1" of the aircraft to apply the effect.
And I think just about everyone expected this outcome or silence.
eparedes0785 wrote: I totally expected this outcome. I can't understand how pple defended the opposing view.
the change in the faq confirms that raw was correct aircraft would die if they where effected.
FAQ just now makes it so minimum movement units are not effected.
Nobody said the RAW was incorrect (Some people said it was broken, or tried to add more than there was), or that Aircraft couldn't be affected. The RAW is always "correct" and we stipulated the AIRCRAFT could be affected, just that the only way to INITIATE the required conditions of the ability was if the AIRCRAFT did the moving, not the enemy model. IF an Aicraft moved within 1" of the enemy model, it could have been ensnared (before the FAQ) - but by RAW the enemy model couldn't have moved (and ended) within 1" of the aircraft to apply the effect.
And I think just about everyone expected this outcome or silence.
Breton, this FAQ supports the idea that you CAN get within 1" of AIRCRAFT. So RAW you can charge and get within 1" of an AIRCRAFT, but master of snares will not work.
Because if you cannot get within 1inch you do not need to this new rule regarding min move on master of snares.
Let me be clear, i never thought RaI was that master of snares worked on aircraft, i thought it was pretty stupid. But RaW written it did and this FAQ supports that as it adds a condition to exempt units with a min move.
Because if you cannot get within 1inch you do not need to this new rule regarding min move on master of snares.
Let me be clear, i never thought RaI was that master of snares worked on aircraft, i thought it was pretty stupid. But RaW written it did and this FAQ supports that as it adds a condition to exempt units with a min move.
So you can ensnare a Valkaryie in hover mode but not one in fly mode.Hm.
Because if you cannot get within 1inch you do not need to this new rule regarding min move on master of snares.
Let me be clear, i never thought RaI was that master of snares worked on aircraft, i thought it was pretty stupid. But RaW written it did and this FAQ supports that as it adds a condition to exempt units with a min move.
So you can ensnare a Valkaryie in hover mode but not one in fly mode.Hm.
Yes, you can ensnare any AIRCRAFT which is in hover mode, or is on its last bracket of the damage table.
Because if you cannot get within 1inch you do not need to this new rule regarding min move on master of snares.
Let me be clear, i never thought RaI was that master of snares worked on aircraft, i thought it was pretty stupid. But RaW written it did and this FAQ supports that as it adds a condition to exempt units with a min move.
By RAW a model that could ensnare could GET within 1", but could not END THEIR MOVE within 1" - or INITIATE the within 1". The Aircraft can move within 1" of the ensnaring model. The ensnaring model cannot move within 1" of the Aircraft. The Ensnaring Model can leave 1" with (just) an Aircraft without falling back, the Aircraft cannot (probably) leave 1" with an ensnaring model (without falling back).
This neither supports nor contradicts the need to FAQ the ensnare ability. At no time was an Aircraft within 1" of an ensaring model deemed completely impossible - just unlikely - so a rule proving it was possible doesn't contradict the claim it's unlikely.
You can't argue some rule says more than it does, or some FAQ clears up more than it does - Or that other people claimed more than they did. Because then you end up thinking you proved your case, when you didn't and lose even more ground.
All you did was prove GW thinks its possible for the two models to be within 1" - which has already been stipulated/established - the AIRCRAFT can move within 1" the ensnaring model cannot. By RAW.
At people who still think you can't get within 1" of a flyer.
Please read the airborne rule
Mostly blah not important the important part is.
Enemy units can only make close combat attacks against this model if they can FLY.
Ergo it is possible within the rules for a non FLY unit to end up within 1". However won't be able to attack in melee as the above rule accounts for that situation.
The Aircraft FAQ is a Movement Phase clarification.
ThatMG wrote: At people who still think you can't get within 1" of a flyer.
Please read the airborne rule
Mostly blah not important the important part is.
Enemy units can only make close combat attacks against this model if they can FLY.
Ergo it is possible within the rules for a non FLY unit to end up within 1". However won't be able to attack in melee as the above rule accounts for that situation.
The Aircraft FAQ is a Movement Phase clarification.
Nobody said it was impossible for a non-fly model to end up within 1" of the aircraft. As we've said multiple times here. If you're not going to argue against what we pointed out, changing what we've said and quoted to something you CAN argue against, why are you here?
We said:
By RAW They CAN end up within 1" - but the Aircraft has to initiate the proximity - the enemy model cannot. The AIRCRAFT model can in theory end any kind of move within 1" of a non-Aircraft. A Non-Aircraft can NOT end any kind of move within 1" of an Aircraft.
Making attacks is not the same thing as ending within 1". Being within 1" is another requirement.
What you're doing is called a straw man. You're changing what we said to something easier for you to argue with.
ThatMG wrote: At people who still think you can't get within 1" of a flyer.
Please read the airborne rule
Mostly blah not important the important part is.
Enemy units can only make close combat attacks against this model if they can FLY.
Ergo it is possible within the rules for a non FLY unit to end up within 1". However won't be able to attack in melee as the above rule accounts for that situation.
The Aircraft FAQ is a Movement Phase clarification.
Nobody said it was impossible for a non-fly model to end up within 1" of the aircraft. As we've said multiple times here. If you're not going to argue against what we pointed out, changing what we've said and quoted to something you CAN argue against, why are you here?
We said:
By RAW They CAN end up within 1" - but the Aircraft has to initiate the proximity - the enemy model cannot. The AIRCRAFT model can in theory end any kind of move within 1" of a non-Aircraft. A Non-Aircraft can NOT end any kind of move within 1" of an Aircraft.
Making attacks is not the same thing as ending within 1". Being within 1" is another requirement.
What you're doing is called a straw man. You're changing what we said to something easier for you to argue with.
Relevant parts of your statements are in bold and not in good faith, at this point you are a troll.
You and anyone who keeps posting you can't pile in and/or consolidate into a Aircraft is wrong and has been proven multiple times.
The above wording in my post clearly has a situation in that a non-flyer got within 1." The method doesn't matter outside of Movement Phase (Aircraft FAQ limits it in that phase only.) You are just back peddling on things I was never talking about cause your "Side" lost the argument.
). Here are the Movement phase rules, errata included, in their entirety.
Is the intention of the second sentence that you cant end your move within 1" of any enemy aircraft ? If so the third sentence doesnt make any sense, because you can move within 1" of enemy aircraft.
and not in good faith, at this point you are a troll.