CthuluIsSpy wrote: Its good for not having to use solar pulse to get rid of entrenched units. Other than that its pretty situational.
I'll add that it depends of the loadout of your Tomb Blades, if you run Tesla (with Sautekh to try a Methodical Destruction), it can be a good investment. We're are not exactly swimming in CP usually, and going from 3+ to 2+ is good to have.
But i'm ok, it's situational and i will probably not put them on my Tomb Blades unless i have spare points.
Scope doesn't add +1 to hit, just ignore cover.
Never said it add +1 to hit !?
But having a power armor save in cover or not is a huge difference.
How are you getting 3+ to 2+ then?
By being in cover. He refers to marine having 3+ rather than 2+ is big deal. Ergo ignore cover is handy.
tneva82 wrote: By being in cover. He refers to marine having 3+ rather than 2+ is big deal. Ergo ignore cover is handy.
Yeah, this. The main argument was also that you can't Solar Pulse everytime because we have a limited CP pool and if you play Tesla Tomb Blades with another Dynasty than Mephrit (like Sautekh for MD), it become almost mandatory if you face power armor.
IHateNids wrote: Because you have to move your models "ON" the board, and then provides exceptions to that rule
You are not allowed to willing use an exception.
It makes no sense to me either, but thats GW rulewriting for ya
Referring to the BRB page 177, 'Minimum Move', there is no such restriction. At least regarding units with FLY and a minimum move value.
So again, what hinders me to willfully 'lose' my flyer?
IHateNids wrote: Because you have to move your models "ON" the board, and then provides exceptions to that rule
You are not allowed to willing use an exception.
It makes no sense to me either, but thats GW rulewriting for ya
Referring to the BRB page 177, 'Minimum Move', there is no such restriction. At least regarding units with FLY and a minimum move value.
So again, what hinders me to willfully 'lose' my flyer?
Take this to YMDC, This isn't the place to debate this.
Do you think that Hyperlogical Strategist is a better Warlord trait than Immortal Pride ?
A bit of context, i usually play Sautekh, with Imotekh as my Warlord. The simple way to calculate the gain is 1CP (Imotekh as Warlord) and ~1CP/round for the trait, but usually i gain over the game max 3C. After the 3rd round i'm usually out of CP and the game is almost over.
So i'll say that Hyperlogical Strategist rewards you 3CP ou 4CP with Imotekh if you are in 'normal' conditions.
My list has squads of Immortals (2x10 + 1x5 or 3x10 depending of my list) and i notice a pattern i my games. I often use the 2CP ignore morale stratagem one time *and* often lose one squad of immortals due to morale because i'm out of CP.
Maybe i'm biaised because it happened to me my last two games but i think that i'll try Immortal Pride over Hyperlogical Strategist, even if i field Imotekh (but losing that bonus CP is a hard thing to do).
Shaelinith wrote: Do you think that Hyperlogical Strategist is a better Warlord trait than Immortal Pride ?
A bit of context, i usually play Sautekh, with Imotekh as my Warlord. The simple way to calculate the gain is 1CP (Imotekh as Warlord) and ~1CP/round for the trait, but usually i gain over the game max 3C. After the 3rd round i'm usually out of CP and the game is almost over.
So i'll say that Hyperlogical Strategist rewards you 3CP ou 4CP with Imotekh if you are in 'normal' conditions.
My list has squads of Immortals (2x10 + 1x5 or 3x10 depending of my list) and i notice a pattern i my games. I often use the 2CP ignore morale stratagem one time *and* often lose one squad of immortals due to morale because i'm out of CP.
Maybe i'm biaised because it happened to me my last two games but i think that i'll try Immortal Pride over Hyperlogical Strategist, even if i field Imotekh (but losing that bonus CP is a hard thing to do).
What do you think ?
With ten man units I find that my enemy either kills all or leave enough left alive for moral not to be an issue. (Ie only take pot shots till they hit decisively.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ie I don't often need to spend 2CPs to save units.
Shaelinith wrote: Do you think that Hyperlogical Strategist is a better Warlord trait than Immortal Pride ?
A bit of context, i usually play Sautekh, with Imotekh as my Warlord. The simple way to calculate the gain is 1CP (Imotekh as Warlord) and ~1CP/round for the trait, but usually i gain over the game max 3C. After the 3rd round i'm usually out of CP and the game is almost over.
So i'll say that Hyperlogical Strategist rewards you 3CP ou 4CP with Imotekh if you are in 'normal' conditions.
My list has squads of Immortals (2x10 + 1x5 or 3x10 depending of my list) and i notice a pattern i my games. I often use the 2CP ignore morale stratagem one time *and* often lose one squad of immortals due to morale because i'm out of CP.
Maybe i'm biaised because it happened to me my last two games but i think that i'll try Immortal Pride over Hyperlogical Strategist, even if i field Imotekh (but losing that bonus CP is a hard thing to do).
What do you think ?
I have NEVER played a game with Hyperlogical Strategist and been happy i took it. I ran it recently...had 10CP at the start of the game...and NEVER...and I mean NEVER...got a CP back. It was absolutely worthless. I have always had that sort of result any time i've run it.
I generally at least get mileage from Immortal Pride every game, largely in the form of the free 'deny' once per turn. The fearless is priceless if you ever wish to use warriors.
iGuy91 wrote: I have NEVER played a game with Hyperlogical Strategist and been happy i took it. I ran it recently...had 10CP at the start of the game...and NEVER...and I mean NEVER...got a CP back. It was absolutely worthless. I have always had that sort of result any time i've run it.
I generally at least get mileage from Immortal Pride every game, largely in the form of the free 'deny' once per turn. The fearless is priceless if you ever wish to use warriors.
Yeah, i'm not a huge fan of warriors. If i field them, i'll think i will indeed take Immortal Pride without doubt. With immortals i still hesitate, but as you say, Immortal Pride is not random, that's definitely a plus.
torblind wrote: Note, if you play Imotekh as your Warlord, you have take. Hyperlogical Strategist. (Just making sure that didn't slip under someone's radar)
Totally understood. But if I am not using Immo, I prefer to use Implacable Conqueror, Skin of Living Gold, or Immortal Pride
torblind wrote: Note, if you play Imotekh as your Warlord, you have take. Hyperlogical Strategist. (Just making sure that didn't slip under someone's radar)
Totally understood. But if I am not using Immo, I prefer to use Implacable Conqueror, Skin of Living Gold, or Immortal Pride
I do the same. I much prefer a specific utility trait I can plan my tactics to play into
Automatically Appended Next Post: Love the feeling when a plan comes together
Hyperlogical Strategist is OK, not great. It's a tax worth paying with Imotekh, just for the extra CP he gives you and the CP he saves you on Phaeron's Will.
Regarding Imotekh, can his Storm ability directly hit (D6 Damage) Characters with more than 10 wounds?
I've noticed on one of the C'Tan powers, it specifically rules that it can't target characters unless it has more than 10 wounds. However with Imotekh, it just states no targeting characters.
elook wrote: Regarding Imotekh, can his Storm ability directly hit (D6 Damage) Characters with more than 10 wounds?
I've noticed on one of the C'Tan powers, it specifically rules that it can't target characters unless it has more than 10 wounds. However with Imotekh, it just states no targeting characters.
You answered your own question. No exception for characters with more than 10 wounds.
IanVanCheese wrote: Hyperlogical Strategist is OK, not great. It's a tax worth paying with Imotekh, just for the extra CP he gives you and the CP he saves you on Phaeron's Will.
I mean, Imotekh doesn't have to be your Warlord, but it feels wrong having some lowly Cryptek commanding Imotekh around
IanVanCheese wrote: Hyperlogical Strategist is OK, not great. It's a tax worth paying with Imotekh, just for the extra CP he gives you and the CP he saves you on Phaeron's Will.
I mean, Imotekh doesn't have to be your Warlord, but it feels wrong having some lowly Cryptek commanding Imotekh around
True, but also that extra CP he gives you if he's your warlord ain't to be sniffed at. Depends on what kind of list you're running. I find my Immortal units rarely need Immortal Pride, but warrior blobs need it.
As to his storm, not being able to smack characters with more than 10 wounds is annoying, but honestly, I've found it's best used taking out mortar teams/dark reapers/hive guard. Just smack stuff you'd struggle to get to otherwise. Shield drones are another good target.
tneva82 wrote: Have lychguard or praetorians on sprue. Any ideas how to assemble them? 4 options is rather lot. Atm thinking 10 4++ lychguard and 2 attack praetorian
Easy. None. Wait for the FAQ that's just around the corner.
tneva82 wrote: Well let's clarify. If they don#t get changes which is likely what then?
I'd rate them:
1. Warscythe Lychguard
2. Pistol Praetorians
3. Sword and board LG 4. Rod Praets.
Some ranting..
None of them are particularly good. LG requires some sort of delivery mechanism, the Veil will do, yet we all know how that works out.
Praets had a nice point drop last adjustment, and are pretty versatile , but lack dynasty, which may or may not be important.
The high AP Rod shooting you likely get elsewhere, Mephrit anything, Gauss blades, Destroyers, the pistol combo gives you a bonus attack in CC which is great. And a bonus shooting attack for the off chance that you keep them locked in CC.
But, over all tomb blades and canoptek units sort of fill the fast attack roles as good or better anyway.
LG play well with teleport shenanigans, but now you're playing for fun and not to win.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a second note I might rate pistol Praets and sword board LG the same. The LG have the 3++ possibility with the MW surprise when you drop them off in enemy territory.
Scytheguard really needed the blaster/scythe weapons the Pariahs had. That way they could continue being offensive units, even out of charge range.
Giving scytheguard a ranged attack would overall give lychguard a more defined role build wise; want to go offensive, go scythes. Want to defensive and have bodyguards for the warlord, go shield.
Right now there's not really any distinction, as scytheguard have as much impact as their defensive counterpart due to their difficulty in getting into combat. If they had a gun they could at least apply some pressure in the shooting phase. They only times I managed to get scytheguard into combat was against armies that want to charge into combat. For an offensive unit, that's pretty crap. Against armies that don't want to get stuck in they usually get shot up before they can close the distance, even if they veil / monolith / nightscythe in. That 9" charge is a risk for them.
Yeah 9" charge is bad. 28% is too bad. That's why mwbd is pretty much mandatory. 42% is at least bit better. With cp reroll getting around 50% i think. Warlord trait for rerolls then 78%. Or 58% without mwbd.
tneva82 wrote: Yeah 9" charge is bad. 28% is too bad. That's why mwbd is pretty much mandatory. 42% is at least bit better. With cp reroll getting around 50% i think. Warlord trait for rerolls then 78%. Or 58% without mwbd.
But nightscythe/monolith is better than 9" right? You get to move after eternity gating them I'm these days
tneva82 wrote: Yeah 9" charge is bad. 28% is too bad. That's why mwbd is pretty much mandatory. 42% is at least bit better. With cp reroll getting around 50% i think. Warlord trait for rerolls then 78%. Or 58% without mwbd.
But nightscythe/monolith is better than 9" right? You get to move after eternity gating them I'm these days
Oh that's right, they FAQ'd it so that the nightscythe / monolith act as transport vehicles, so you can disembark from them normally. Which means rather a 9" charge you can have a 1" charge from the scythe or a 4" charge from the monolith. Of course, since you can't disembark on the turn the vehicle gets into position, your opponent will have the chance of moving out of the way, and most non-necron units have a 6" move. So you're looking at more of a 10" charge from a monolith. With scythes its a bit easier as you can get up in your opponent's face, but such an aggressive move is a risky proposition, unless you are willing to burn a CP for a suicide run.
I really don't like how you disembark before the vehicle moves. It was better in earlier editions.
tneva82 wrote: Yeah 9" charge is bad. 28% is too bad. That's why mwbd is pretty much mandatory. 42% is at least bit better. With cp reroll getting around 50% i think. Warlord trait for rerolls then 78%. Or 58% without mwbd.
But nightscythe/monolith is better than 9" right? You get to move after eternity gating them I'm these days
Oh that's right, they FAQ'd it so that the nightscythe / monolith act as transport vehicles, so you can disembark from them normally.
Which means rather a 9" charge you can have a 1" charge from the scythe or a 4" charge from the monolith, provided your opponent doesn't just move out of the way.
Yeah it's a quite different ballgame all of a sudden. Deceivering in three monoliths still isn't going to be competitive, but they will deliver ten scytheguard straight into CC. Which is always fun while it lasts.
I did have a hilarious basket of fun running my Seraptek into a Tau castle and having it detonate....9 inch blast. Caught 5 of my units, something like 10 of his.... the explosion dealt 45 mortal wounds once the dust settled because the dice gods decreed it.
tneva82 wrote: Have lychguard or praetorians on sprue. Any ideas how to assemble them? 4 options is rather lot. Atm thinking 10 4++ lychguard and 2 attack praetorian
You can always magnetise them for all 4 options. It's probably around 30 mins of extra work per model but it makes them future proof. I would use elements from both kits on the bodies, perhaps the Praetorian heads and tail thing, Lychguard spine and loincloth. Could magnetise the anti grav backpack too.
tneva82 wrote: Yeah 9" charge is bad. 28% is too bad. That's why mwbd is pretty much mandatory. 42% is at least bit better. With cp reroll getting around 50% i think. Warlord trait for rerolls then 78%. Or 58% without mwbd.
But nightscythe/monolith is better than 9" right? You get to move after eternity gating them I'm these days
That runs into issue of more cost, t2 earliest and if you get your vehicles blown t1 unit dies boom.
And if you go up close enemy can surround vehicle, destroy and again contents go boom. Especially risky vs ig with their average 19" move
Only reliable charge with Luchguard is Obyron/Zahndrekh and either a veil of darkness or the Deceiver or both. If you do both you can get a second reliable charge in at the target of your choice, should you survive round 1
A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.
elook wrote: A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.
It's too expensive, you are breaking the bank and putting your Monolith at extreme risk. You'd be better off shoving a Mephrit Ghost Ark with Warriors into your opponent's face, depending on whether your playgroup will count those Warriors as having been Deceivered, I don't see a reason why but I have seen one small tournament rule that way. Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks.
elook wrote: A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.
It's too expensive, you are breaking the bank and putting your Monolith at extreme risk. You'd be better off shoving a Mephrit Ghost Ark with Warriors into your opponent's face, depending on whether your playgroup will count those Warriors as having been Deceivered, I don't see a reason why but I have seen one small tournament rule that way. Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks.
You can't tie up a Knight with warriors unless I'm misunderstanding you. Also, a Knight stands a good chance of wiping a 10 man warrior unit anyway. I actually can't think of many things in the meta that you'd really want/be able to tie up with warriors. Eldar/DE everything has fly. Tau have a wall of fire warriors'/drones and fly, guard don't take their tanks anymore, knights just fall back, and orks would be overjoyed that you got closer to them. I guess a leviathan dread or telemon?
Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote: Only reliable charge with Luchguard is Obyron/Zahndrekh and either a veil of darkness or the Deceiver or both. If you do both you can get a second reliable charge in at the target of your choice, should you survive round 1
78% is fairly reliable. Issue is it eats up lots of resources(warlord trait, relic, possibly cp), is for one unit so chaff will be issue and you have only tough or good damage dealers as option, not both, and both with high point cost
elook wrote: A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.
It's too expensive, you are breaking the bank and putting your Monolith at extreme risk. You'd be better off shoving a Mephrit Ghost Ark with Warriors into your opponent's face, depending on whether your playgroup will count those Warriors as having been Deceivered, I don't see a reason why but I have seen one small tournament rule that way. Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks.
I haven't personally tried it but I'd definitely like to give it a go. Try get as many threats as possible into the opponent's face using Wraiths to advance/charge and protect the teleported C'Tan on one flank whilst Monolith and Lychguard take the other. Destroyers press up with small squads of Immortals and HQ to hold objectives. Sounds great but who knows.
elook wrote: A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.
It's too expensive, you are breaking the bank and putting your Monolith at extreme risk. You'd be better off shoving a Mephrit Ghost Ark with Warriors into your opponent's face, depending on whether your playgroup will count those Warriors as having been Deceivered, I don't see a reason why but I have seen one small tournament rule that way. Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks.
I haven't personally tried it but I'd definitely like to give it a go. Try get as many threats as possible into the opponent's face using Wraiths to advance/charge and protect the teleported C'Tan on one flank whilst Monolith and Lychguard take the other. Destroyers press up with small squads of Immortals and HQ to hold objectives. Sounds great but who knows.
Definitely, the moment he gets to pick you apart piece by piece you're doomed, particularly with this gimmick.
elook wrote: A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.
It's too expensive, you are breaking the bank and putting your Monolith at extreme risk. You'd be better off shoving a Mephrit Ghost Ark with Warriors into your opponent's face, depending on whether your playgroup will count those Warriors as having been Deceivered, I don't see a reason why but I have seen one small tournament rule that way. Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks.
You can't tie up a Knight with warriors unless I'm misunderstanding you. Also, a Knight stands a good chance of wiping a 10 man warrior unit anyway. I actually can't think of many things in the meta that you'd really want/be able to tie up with warriors. Eldar/DE everything has fly. Tau have a wall of fire warriors'/drones and fly, guard don't take their tanks anymore, knights just fall back, and orks would be overjoyed that you got closer to them. I guess a leviathan dread or telemon?
I was saying that Warriors are useless against Knights unlike Lychguard which can theoretically put the hurt on one. You can simplify the meta to the top tables, but you will find tonnes of non-flying shooting units in most metas I believe. It's a much smaller investment with a decent chance of a large pay-out. Between the GA and Warriors in RF range and the rest of your army you'll have a good chance of engaging an enemy shooting unit turn 1. Sacrificing a unit of Warriors, while jumping back with the GA to force your opponent to Da Jump his Lootas instead of 30 Boyz would be pretty good. The question is what can a Monolith and 10 Lychguard do that 10 Warriors in a GA cannot do for far fewer pts and 1 less CP?
elook wrote: A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.
It's too expensive, you are breaking the bank and putting your Monolith at extreme risk. You'd be better off shoving a Mephrit Ghost Ark with Warriors into your opponent's face, depending on whether your playgroup will count those Warriors as having been Deceivered, I don't see a reason why but I have seen one small tournament rule that way. Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks.
I haven't personally tried it but I'd definitely like to give it a go. Try get as many threats as possible into the opponent's face using Wraiths to advance/charge and protect the teleported C'Tan on one flank whilst Monolith and Lychguard take the other. Destroyers press up with small squads of Immortals and HQ to hold objectives. Sounds great but who knows.
Not competive but could be fun for casual games. Lychguards with 78% ds charge, monolith plus praetorians and advance and charge wraiths. Lots of pressure 1st turn. Will be low on troops and at wivl be an issue though
elook wrote: A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.
It's too expensive, you are breaking the bank and putting your Monolith at extreme risk. You'd be better off shoving a Mephrit Ghost Ark with Warriors into your opponent's face, depending on whether your playgroup will count those Warriors as having been Deceivered, I don't see a reason why but I have seen one small tournament rule that way. Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks.
You can't tie up a Knight with warriors unless I'm misunderstanding you. Also, a Knight stands a good chance of wiping a 10 man warrior unit anyway. I actually can't think of many things in the meta that you'd really want/be able to tie up with warriors. Eldar/DE everything has fly. Tau have a wall of fire warriors'/drones and fly, guard don't take their tanks anymore, knights just fall back, and orks would be overjoyed that you got closer to them. I guess a leviathan dread or telemon?
I was saying that Warriors are useless against Knights unlike Lychguard which can theoretically put the hurt on one. You can simplify the meta to the top tables, but you will find tonnes of non-flying shooting units in most metas I believe. It's a much smaller investment with a decent chance of a large pay-out. Between the GA and Warriors in RF range and the rest of your army you'll have a good chance of engaging an enemy shooting unit turn 1. Sacrificing a unit of Warriors, while jumping back with the GA to force your opponent to Da Jump his Lootas instead of 30 Boyz would be pretty good. The question is what can a Monolith and 10 Lychguard do that 10 Warriors in a GA cannot do for far fewer pts and 1 less CP?
Bolded part suggests warriors would be used against knights where even if they survive the charge all they archieved was free kills for the knight.
And how warriors are supposed to get to combat against lootas with at least 60 grots front and possibly boyz mob as well? Orks protect lootas against t1 charges by stuff like blood angels and their 3d6" ds charges or kraken stealer swarm. How necrons are supposed to do that?
vict0988 wrote: Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks
Bolded part suggests warriors would be used against knights where even if they survive the charge all they archieved was free kills for the knight.
And how warriors are supposed to get to combat against lootas with at least 60 grots front and possibly boyz mob as well? Orks protect lootas against t1 charges by stuff like blood angels and their 3d6" ds charges or kraken stealer swarm. How necrons are supposed to do that?
No it specifically means the opposite, "those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights" means that the Warriors won't do anything to Knights "but melee is as much about stopping shooting as..." means that it is okay to not be able to kill a Knight in combat. It depends on the positioning of the Lootas, Grots and Boyz and whether you Veil in some support to help clear out your opponent, I was mostly just thinking of Guard tanks and DAHS plasma dudes. My point about those Warriors in a GA doing more work than the Lychguard and the Monolith when factoring int he huge disparity in cost still stands.
Why bring up knights then because they won'' stop them from shooting either?
And ig is bad target for that. You are talking about king of chaff. Getting anything into combat with tanks requires bit more than warriors from ghost ark. LOT more.
And lootas...genestealers that move like 40" and fight twice won't do it. Why would warriors?
Thought Experiment.
How many Grots does a unit of mwbd tesla immortals kill a turn.
My rough math says 20 shots, 28 hits....something like 20 wounds?
Theoretically, 3x10 should chew through any and all grots and let you get into those tasty lootas in a turn, easily. Then use scarabs to screen out da jumping boyz.
Not a great return on investment in points killed, but, the lootas being taken out would be a back breaker in most game plans.
tneva82 wrote: Why bring up knights then because they won'' stop them from shooting either?
And ig is bad target for that. You are talking about king of chaff. Getting anything into combat with tanks requires bit more than warriors from ghost ark. LOT more.
And lootas...genestealers that move like 40" and fight twice won't do it. Why would warriors?
The reason I mentioned Knights was that we were talking about sling-shotting Lychguard into T1 combat. The only reason you would take Lychguard over Warriors is because of Knights and because you want to kill tanks, I was pointing out that being able to do damage to Knights in melee isn't worth that much and as long as you get into combat with a tank it doesn't matter whether you kill it or not.
If you assume you will never get into melee with a tank then you never will. Maybe you won't against perfect opponents but most people aren't perfect, most people make mistakes. I'm not sure why you think Boyz and Genestealers never get into combat with Tanks, if that was the case then IG parking lots would have a 99% win rate Orks and Tyranids, melee is the main weakness of IG tanks. Between standing 7" from your opponent's front line, a 7" charge, 3" worth of pile-in and another 3" worth of consolidation move, getting into melee with a tank isn't out of the question, especially because your opponent might not think you'd be able to T1 charge since the Deceiver prohibits the units he moves from doing so, it is a tactic that involves going around the rules much in the same way the Monolith is, but less obvious because your opponent might expect you just to relocate to get into RF range.
You wound grots on 2+. t2. Sure if you target lootas you wound vs t4 but then grot shield protects and grots benefit from t4. Most efficient is to blow grots first and then vaporize lootas unless he has something silly like 200 grots to screen(unlikely to say the least)
One terrain dependant issue for this is that lootas are 48" range shooty unit so terrain allowing they and grots wants to be 30"+ away from enemy. Too far for multiple immortals to reach at least without nephrek advance. 1 unit won't clear all the grots and even 2 need bit luck
You wound grots on 2+. t2. Sure if you target lootas you wound vs t4 but then grot shield protects and grots benefit from t4. Most efficient is to blow grots first and then vaporize lootas unless he has something silly like 200 grots to screen(unlikely to say the least)
One terrain dependant issue for this is that lootas are 48" range shooty unit so terrain allowing they and grots wants to be 30"+ away from enemy. Too far for multiple immortals to reach at least without nephrek advance. 1 unit won't clear all the grots and even 2 need bit luck
Woaha, T2.. Yup, so 20.83 kills then. What's their unit size and do they have moral boosts like the boys?
10-30 Grots, no moral boost, but if they have a Runt Herd they can only lose D3 if they fail a morale test.
They also cannot benefit from any stratagem or trait unless it specifically says it affects grots, and if there are 20 or more models in the unit they get +1 to hit.
Well only strategem that interest them is the grot shield and that's just mainly to force enemy to clear grots first(while it's active targeting grots directly is fastest way generally to clear lootas/meganobz behind).
Also targeting grots directly gives you some control, especially vs 10 strong units, where casualties are removed. Could be handy if you can position units correctly. With grot shield ork player has more leeway to remove models to his benefit
tneva82 wrote: Well only strategem that interest them is the grot shield and that's just mainly to force enemy to clear grots first(while it's active targeting grots directly is fastest way generally to clear lootas/meganobz behind).
Also targeting grots directly gives you some control, especially vs 10 strong units, where casualties are removed. Could be handy if you can position units correctly. With grot shield ork player has more leeway to remove models to his benefit
So what i'm thinking is that if you have 3x10 immortals, you split fire the immortals 5 immortals per 10 grots, and you should reliably kill 60 a turn.
tneva82 wrote: Well only strategem that interest them is the grot shield and that's just mainly to force enemy to clear grots first(while it's active targeting grots directly is fastest way generally to clear lootas/meganobz behind).
Also targeting grots directly gives you some control, especially vs 10 strong units, where casualties are removed. Could be handy if you can position units correctly. With grot shield ork player has more leeway to remove models to his benefit
So what i'm thinking is that if you have 3x10 immortals, you split fire the immortals 5 immortals per 10 grots, and you should reliably kill 60 a turn.
Throw a lord in, to wound on 2s and reroll 1s.
If they are in 10 strong units(rather than 30) and you can get all in range(terrain hindering orks) yeah that's the way to do it.
Btw there's one scenario where directing directly to lootas can be good but that requires very fast shooters or very open terrain. 15 and 10 loota units. Shoot at the 10 strong. If he uses grot screen then target 15 at will. If you caused kill to 10 strong and 6 to other no combining. 9 or less are lot less scary mobs. And then you can fire at the bigger mob at will. Odds are he will let you kill 10 strong and curse the planet bowling ball
Automatically Appended Next Post: About wraiths. How good/bad the coils are? I have 6 wraiths and 2 were from 2nd hand deal and have coils already. Should I look for replacing them with regular or is the price worth it for it?
Nice idea...Except the ability is specifically fight phase(phase 5) which is different to charge phase(phase 4). By the time fight phase(where the ability works) starts overwatch is all done and casualties removed.
The ability works only if you get charged and somebody dies, you charge, fight with other unit and strategem is used to attack before wraiths attack or combat continues from previous one and enemy attacks before you attack.
Unless this has been faq'ed? But as written in codex(as unreliable as that is these days as source...) it's only in fight phase which is different to charge phase.
Facisminthe41m wrote: I like having one model with whip coils so if one eats it in overwatch they can still get their attacks in.
I suggest you read the whip coils rule Overwatch happens in the charge phase, and slain models are removed in the charge phase.
Whip coils
If the bearer is slain in the Fight phase before it has made its attacks, leave the model where it is. When its unit is chosen to fight in that phase, it can do so as normal. Once it has done so, remove the model from the battlefield.
I generally find 90% of the time, my wraiths die from gunfire, not from melee. They either get in and tear through their target relatively unscathed, or they get mauled by every gun in the enemy army.
So i don't generally find whip coils to be worth it.
Are Immortals still considered better than Warriors?
I know this is an old debate, but I'm contemplating expanding my ~600pts or so of Necrons. Current I own 10 Warriors, 3 Destroyers, 6 Scarabs, an Overlord and a Monolith. So, basically just the "classics" In our small games at home, we always use the Warriors as Gauss Immortals because the rules are better, it bumps up our points a bit and I remember playing Necrons when Warriors had a 3+ armour.
But recently I've been thinking about getting another Warrior Box and/or maybe a box of Immortals so that we can upgrade from an Outrider to a Battalions.
So should we keep using the Warriors as Immortals (with a few actual Immortals thrown in for aesthetics) and how would the 3 units be broken up if I had about 21 total models (3x 7 or 1x 10 + 2x 5, etc). Or should we start using units of Warriors (2x 10) and 1 unit of Immortals (maybe Tesla on an objective).
Keep in mind that this is around 1000pt casual games, usually against Marines
Galef wrote: Are Immortals still considered better than Warriors?
I know this is an old debate, but I'm contemplating expanding my ~600pts or so of Necrons. Current I own 10 Warriors, 3 Destroyers, 6 Scarabs, an Overlord and a Monolith. So, basically just the "classics" In our small games at home, we always use the Warriors as Gauss Immortals because the rules are better, it bumps up our points a bit and I remember playing Necrons when Warriors had a 3+ armour.
But recently I've been thinking about getting another Warrior Box and/or maybe a box of Immortals so that we can upgrade from an Outrider to a Battalions.
So should we keep using the Warriors as Immortals (with a few actual Immortals thrown in for aesthetics) and how would the 3 units be broken up if I had about 21 total models (3x 7 or 1x 10 + 2x 5, etc). Or should we start using units of Warriors (2x 10) and 1 unit of Immortals (maybe Tesla on an objective).
Keep in mind that this is around 1000pt casual games, usually against Marines
-
I think warriors have a place, but Immortals (specifically Tesla) are leagues ahead of them. Their damage output is just too good to pass up.
Galef wrote: Are Immortals still considered better than Warriors?
I know this is an old debate, but I'm contemplating expanding my ~600pts or so of Necrons. Current I own 10 Warriors, 3 Destroyers, 6 Scarabs, an Overlord and a Monolith. So, basically just the "classics" In our small games at home, we always use the Warriors as Gauss Immortals because the rules are better, it bumps up our points a bit and I remember playing Necrons when Warriors had a 3+ armour.
But recently I've been thinking about getting another Warrior Box and/or maybe a box of Immortals so that we can upgrade from an Outrider to a Battalions.
So should we keep using the Warriors as Immortals (with a few actual Immortals thrown in for aesthetics) and how would the 3 units be broken up if I had about 21 total models (3x 7 or 1x 10 + 2x 5, etc). Or should we start using units of Warriors (2x 10) and 1 unit of Immortals (maybe Tesla on an objective).
Keep in mind that this is around 1000pt casual games, usually against Marines
-
I think warriors have a place, but Immortals (specifically Tesla) are leagues ahead of them. Their damage output is just too good to pass up.
For their points, warriors are not too far behind in damage output. In rapid fire range.
Immortals with Tesla (and MWBD) really shine against T4 with t-shirt saves, where S5 makes a difference and AP-1 doesnt benefit that much.
What Immortals also has going for them, is the 3+ save. 2+ in cover, which is really powerful.
But depending on your situation, you could make warriors work, bit I never leave home without at least one unit of 10 Tesla Immortals
Are Necron players hopeful that there'll be something to benefit from this FAQ? We've all heard about the Castellan nerf as well as few strongly rumoured changes. Has there been any strong indication that Necrons will get something good? Perhaps an answer to when we can use the Eternity Gate or Invasion Beams?
elook wrote: Are Necron players hopeful that there'll be something to benefit from this FAQ? We've all heard about the Castellan nerf as well as few strongly rumoured changes. Has there been any strong indication that Necrons will get something good? Perhaps an answer to when we can use the Eternity Gate or Invasion Beams?
Haven\t heard more than wishlisting. Which includes that castellan nerf. According to rumours CA2018 FOR SURE killed castellan and soup. How did that pan out?-)
On a topic of nightbringer got one for cheap(12 euro's including postage. Brand new 31 euros so pretty good deal...). How good this is in game? Was originally planning to get deceiver first for the nice redeployment but for this price had to get this one.
Noticed it's a character so good shooting protection. That's nice. That was my first worry about that. 8 wounds, 4++ and would get shot quite easily. Not with character. He can actually get into combat safely!
Galef wrote: Are Immortals still considered better than Warriors?
I know this is an old debate, but I'm contemplating expanding my ~600pts or so of Necrons. Current I own 10 Warriors, 3 Destroyers, 6 Scarabs, an Overlord and a Monolith. So, basically just the "classics" In our small games at home, we always use the Warriors as Gauss Immortals because the rules are better, it bumps up our points a bit and I remember playing Necrons when Warriors had a 3+ armour.
But recently I've been thinking about getting another Warrior Box and/or maybe a box of Immortals so that we can upgrade from an Outrider to a Battalions.
So should we keep using the Warriors as Immortals (with a few actual Immortals thrown in for aesthetics) and how would the 3 units be broken up if I had about 21 total models (3x 7 or 1x 10 + 2x 5, etc). Or should we start using units of Warriors (2x 10) and 1 unit of Immortals (maybe Tesla on an objective).
Keep in mind that this is around 1000pt casual games, usually against Marines
-
Warriors are good if you give them the support they need. Its a heavy investment, but they will usually soak up a lot of fire and can lay down some gauss. At 1000 points though you probably aren't going to give them the buffs they need though.
elook wrote: Are Necron players hopeful that there'll be something to benefit from this FAQ? We've all heard about the Castellan nerf as well as few strongly rumoured changes. Has there been any strong indication that Necrons will get something good? Perhaps an answer to when we can use the Eternity Gate or Invasion Beams?
The only things I am hoping for is clarification on a few of the major ruling issues we have.
EG/IB and turn one deploy. Right now the wording only supports Set up from Reserves then treated as disembarked, while some claim the wording supports that they are effectivly Embarked, thus can Disembark like a Transport.
Veil of darkness and MWBD is not currently covered by the FAQ about Stratagems and Persistent effects, while some claim they are.
The wording on Imotekh' ability and The Pharons will Stratagem does not allow them both to be used on Imotekh on the same turn (both reference second or twice), yet some claim they are able to do three MWBD with this combo.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Warriors are good if you give them the support they need. Its a heavy investment, but they will usually soak up a lot of fire and can lay down some gauss. At 1000 points though you probably aren't going to give them the buffs they need though.
OTOH in 1000 pts killing 20 T4 4+ isn't easiest thing in the world. In 2k that's rather easy so getting to roll RP is pretty hard.
Where warriors shine over Immortals is staying power. At the end of the day you have ten wounds on one side and twenty on the other. When it comes to mortal wounds and such the improved save of Immortals doesn't matter. Besides flayed ones, warriors and scarabs are our only "blobs" for board/objective control. If I take a big unit of them I tend to space them out at the limits of their coherency to block deep strikes. It's also easier to chain warriors to the range of a cryptek/lord/overlord or ghost ark.
On the offensive, taking them Mephrit can be fun, 40 S4AP-2 will cause problems for most things, just by weight of dice and quality shooting isn't hard to pull together with the right buffs.
Tournament coming up this weekend. Taking this list:
Imotekh
Lord
Triarch stalker with heavy gauss
3 x 10 Tesla Immortals
6 Wraiths
6 scarabs
7 scarabs
3 x doomsday ark
The list is 4/4 in practice games, though I've not faced anything I'd call top tier yet. The tournament rules nerf soup somewhat (only use relics, strats, and traits from primary detachment) so hopefully that will level the playing field a bit. I'll report back how I do.
dapperbandit wrote: Where warriors shine over Immortals is staying power. At the end of the day you have ten wounds on one side and twenty on the other. When it comes to mortal wounds and such the improved save of Immortals doesn't matter. Besides flayed ones, warriors and scarabs are our only "blobs" for board/objective control. If I take a big unit of them I tend to space them out at the limits of their coherency to block deep strikes. It's also easier to chain warriors to the range of a cryptek/lord/overlord or ghost ark.
On the offensive, taking them Mephrit can be fun, 40 S4AP-2 will cause problems for most things, just by weight of dice and quality shooting isn't hard to pull together with the right buffs.
Technically, you're only comparing 10 wounds to 13 for the same points.
The FLY clarification helps us because a lot of our units fly. The invasion beams tweak is good, for the 1% who use Night Scythes. Otherwise I'm disappointed but not surprised that we got absolutely nothing buffed. We really need it, but they just don't care.
Page 110 – Stratagems, Emergency Invasion Beam
Add the following sentence:
‘Units set up with this Stratagem can be set up during
the first battle round even if you are using the Tactical
Reserves matched play rule.’
Q: Are units that are set up on their tomb world using the
Invasion Beams and Eternity Gate abilities considered to be on
the battlefield for the purposes of the Tactical Reserves matched
play rule?
A: No, they do not count as being set up on the
battlefield and are considered to be reinforcements for
the purposes of the Tactical Reserves rule.
While these two describe different rules, they appear like they should have the same answer but have the exact opposite... Seems odd..
Page 110 – Stratagems, Emergency Invasion Beam
Add the following sentence:
‘Units set up with this Stratagem can be set up during
the first battle round even if you are using the Tactical
Reserves matched play rule.’
Q: Are units that are set up on their tomb world using the
Invasion Beams and Eternity Gate abilities considered to be on
the battlefield for the purposes of the Tactical Reserves matched
play rule?
A: No, they do not count as being set up on the
battlefield and are considered to be reinforcements for
the purposes of the Tactical Reserves rule.
While these two describe different rules, they appear like they should have the same answer but have the exact opposite... Seems odd..
That's hardly a real life problem, right? You'd likely only ever risk one unit in tomb world from fear of losing the other
Page 110 – Stratagems, Emergency Invasion Beam
Add the following sentence:
‘Units set up with this Stratagem can be set up during
the first battle round even if you are using the Tactical
Reserves matched play rule.’
Q: Are units that are set up on their tomb world using the
Invasion Beams and Eternity Gate abilities considered to be on
the battlefield for the purposes of the Tactical Reserves matched
play rule?
A: No, they do not count as being set up on the
battlefield and are considered to be reinforcements for
the purposes of the Tactical Reserves rule.
While these two describe different rules, they appear like they should have the same answer but have the exact opposite... Seems odd..
It means you can bring stuff out of gate on t1 only by strategem if it is destroyed. No t1 out without losing all gates. No deceiver reposition monolith and come out t1 unless monolith dies
elook wrote: Are Necron players hopeful that there'll be something to benefit from this FAQ? We've all heard about the Castellan nerf as well as few strongly rumoured changes. Has there been any strong indication that Necrons will get something good? Perhaps an answer to when we can use the Eternity Gate or Invasion Beams?
The only things I am hoping for is clarification on a few of the major ruling issues we have.
EG/IB and turn one deploy. Right now the wording only supports Set up from Reserves then treated as disembarked, while some claim the wording supports that they are effectivly Embarked, thus can Disembark like a Transport.
Veil of darkness and MWBD is not currently covered by the FAQ about Stratagems and Persistent effects, while some claim they are.
The wording on Imotekh' ability and The Pharons will Stratagem does not allow them both to be used on Imotekh on the same turn (both reference second or twice), yet some claim they are able to do three MWBD with this combo.
Well two out of three were covered.
No turn one setup via mono/NS, with work around for vehicle being destroyed.
Veil of Darkness and my will be done still works.
iGuy91 wrote: They did clarify it in the main rulebook ruling for stratagems, relics and things that move. They say bubbles stop working but the rest sticks.
Yeah well specifically it is things work as long as rule says it does. Bubbles work while you are in bubble so if you go out of bubble range you are out. But if you teleport out of bubble range and into range of new bubble the bubble still is on. Not important always but sometimes has effect.
Imperial Knights will now be taking more than double the amount of damage than they used to. With a 3+ Rotate Ion Shield and a re-roll, it's only 11.111 % chance of failing a save. With the 4+ maximum, it's 25% chance of failing a save.
Anti-tank weaponry will be worth taking again finally!
Yeah overall this FAQ is great for us between the nerfs to Knights and the Veil changes.
I'd kill for the monolith to be changed to be able to deploy on the turn it deep strikes, though. With the new FAQ making it even more clear that they want deep strikes only on turn 2, the monolith just sounds worse and worse. You have to have the deceiver to even have a hope of dumping units out turn 2.
Yeah overall this FAQ is great for us between the nerfs to Knights and the Veil changes.
I'd kill for the monolith to be changed to be able to deploy on the turn it deep strikes, though. With the new FAQ making it even more clear that they want deep strikes only on turn 2, the monolith just sounds worse and worse. You have to have the deceiver to even have a hope of dumping units out turn 2.
Werekill wrote: Yeah overall this FAQ is great for us between the nerfs to Knights and the Veil changes.
I'd kill for the monolith to be changed to be able to deploy on the turn it deep strikes, though. With the new FAQ making it even more clear that they want deep strikes only on turn 2, the monolith just sounds worse and worse. You have to have the deceiver to even have a hope of dumping units out turn 2.
There's still the stratagem to bring an on board unit up to the monolith, right? So deceiver up the mono, beam up lychguard, move em and charge em and wreck havoc
Of course the usual complications for T1 charges still apply (schaff in front of tanks etc)
Hopefully he'll be busy enough clearing those that you could bring on something else turn 2. At least they're not lost turn 1 any more.
I don't see this competitively but casual games might get more fun
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Werekill wrote: Yeah overall this FAQ is great for us between the nerfs to Knights and the Veil changes.
I'd kill for the monolith to be changed to be able to deploy on the turn it deep strikes, though. With the new FAQ making it even more clear that they want deep strikes only on turn 2, the monolith just sounds worse and worse. You have to have the deceiver to even have a hope of dumping units out turn 2.
Apparently Necrons found a niche in the knights-heavy meta, with QS. This might be even stronger if the meta stocks up on more AT with knights limited to 4++ (and higher quality shots worth taking)
Cynista wrote: The FLY clarification helps us because a lot of our units fly. The invasion beams tweak is good, for the 1% who use Night Scythes. Otherwise I'm disappointed but not surprised that we got absolutely nothing buffed. We really need it, but they just don't care.
These FAQ's generally clarify or nerf only. Rarely is something improved beyond fixing the odd broken mechanic. I'd say we came off as expected. A lot of other factions got flat nerfed.
barontuman wrote: Imperial Knights will now be taking more than double the amount of damage than they used to. With a 3+ Rotate Ion Shield and a re-roll, it's only 11.111 % chance of failing a save. With the 4+ maximum, it's 25% chance of failing a save.
Anti-tank weaponry will be worth taking again finally!
Sorry for my naivete, but I'm confused by this math. A 3++ means they fail on a 1 or 2. That's a 33.33% chance of failing a save. 4++ means 50% chance of failing. That's a 16.67% chance increase, which is a 50% or half again above the original 33.33%. Not double or more than double... Was this comment made in different context?
barontuman wrote: Imperial Knights will now be taking more than double the amount of damage than they used to. With a 3+ Rotate Ion Shield and a re-roll, it's only 11.111 % chance of failing a save. With the 4+ maximum, it's 25% chance of failing a save.
Anti-tank weaponry will be worth taking again finally!
Sorry for my naivete, but I'm confused by this math. A 3++ means they fail on a 1 or 2. That's a 33.33% chance of failing a save. 4++ means 50% chance of failing. That's a 17.67% chance increase, which is a 50% or half again above the original 33.33%. Not double or more than double... Was this comment made in different context?
Note he talks with reroll from command CP. 50% rerolled is 1/4 chance of failing. 3+ rerolled is 1/9 chance of failing.
Of course that only applies to first failure. Though it takes quite a long time to generally get past shield so the fact it's only one reroll doesn't hurt as much. Especially for necrons who have small amount of big shots as general(about 5 shots to get failure one failure)
barontuman wrote: Imperial Knights will now be taking more than double the amount of damage than they used to. With a 3+ Rotate Ion Shield and a re-roll, it's only 11.111 % chance of failing a save. With the 4+ maximum, it's 25% chance of failing a save.
Anti-tank weaponry will be worth taking again finally!
Sorry for my naivete, but I'm confused by this math. A 3++ means they fail on a 1 or 2. That's a 33.33% chance of failing a save. 4++ means 50% chance of failing. That's a 17.67% chance increase, which is a 50% or half again above the original 33.33%. Not double or more than double... Was this comment made in different context?
Note he talks with reroll from command CP. 50% rerolled is 1/4 chance of failing. 3+ rerolled is 1/9 chance of failing.
Of course that only applies to first failure. Though it takes quite a long time to generally get past shield so the fact it's only one reroll doesn't hurt as much. Especially for necrons who have small amount of big shots as general(about 5 shots to get failure one failure)
Ahh, that makes more sense. Thanks for the explanation.
As usual GW don't know their own rules. A roll cannot be modified below 1, unless you are Necrons I suppose.
I love the change to flyers, I think it makes our Flyers completely garbage though, no reason to ever take one.
Deathwatch losing bolter discipline is pretty huge for Wraiths. So many nerfs for other factions as well, the 3++ being gone for Knights is a big deal for Pylons I feel. The removal of the mega-dakka Ork squad is really great for QS-heavy lists. The volcano-lance nerf means more small and medium-Knights, which means more of a melee threat. Also, suck it Daemon Prince spam.
I'm not sure if they missed it but you can still farm CP for putting units into reserves with Stratagems, since deployment is after the battle has begun AFAIK, doesn't matter for Necrons I suppose.
AAAAND YEEESSSS. Obyron tesla spam is back in business, feth you ITC head judge and feth your stupid GW connections. WAHAHAHA. I wasn't getting any better at League of Legends anyways and now I can go back to playing 40k.
Well that's special excemption for the quantum shield stratagem then. Nice necrons got something.
Deployment is most definitely before battle begins.
How did Obyron change? (not familiar with necron SC's especially as my dynasty doesn't have much access plus noob with necrons anyway waiting for first game. At least models for that are painted)
tneva82 wrote: Well that's special excemption for the quantum shield stratagem then. Nice necrons got something.
Deployment is most definitely before battle begins.
How did Obyron change? (not familiar with necron SC's especially as my dynasty doesn't have much access plus noob with necrons anyway waiting for first game. At least models for that are painted)
He is referencing a house rule in a recent tournament where a judge said mwbd went away when the unit was moved with the veil. Claimed to have gw inside connections or something
tneva82 wrote: Well that's special excemption for the quantum shield stratagem then. Nice necrons got something.
Deployment is most definitely before battle begins.
How did Obyron change? (not familiar with necron SC's especially as my dynasty doesn't have much access plus noob with necrons anyway waiting for first game. At least models for that are painted)
He is referencing a house rule in a recent tournament where a judge said mwbd went away when the unit was moved with the veil. Claimed to have gw inside connections or something
I too am still trying to figure out how the Quantum shielding question works as I also thought any time a modifier goes below 0 it 'rounds up' to 1. But I am trying to find the exact wording on the idea that anything 0 or less turns into a 1 in the rule book. I found the ST/T/L can never be modified below one, but unable to find any other rule for this.
Well it's pretty much pointless to try to figure out how it works because now it works because GW flat out said it works. If nothing else it works because FAQ overrode basic rules.
tneva82 wrote: Vehicles become bit more viable with castellan nerf but infantry is going to take a hit if the double 4++ crusaders become a thing.
I think double crusaders will absolutely be a problem for us, as they shred our infantry AND tanks. Still, not having a 3+ to contend with is good, might bring Pylons back to the board.
I don't get the surprise behind the QS strat clarification. I thought it was obvious that it was supposed to allow you to use QS if you roll a 1 for ignoring damage 1 weapons.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I don't get the surprise behind the QS strat clarification. I thought it was obvious that it was supposed to allow you to use QS if you roll a 1 for ignoring damage 1 weapons.
Because it breaks up core rules and previous clarifications. Any roll under 1 is modified back to 1. This wasn't even errata to wording so it would work. As it is if there was 2nd ability that was similar it would not apply to it. It's QS specific special excemption without even errating wording to that effect.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I don't get the surprise behind the QS strat clarification. I thought it was obvious that it was supposed to allow you to use QS if you roll a 1 for ignoring damage 1 weapons.
It didn't work before, as in the designers commentary, they stated that you cant roll lower than a 1. and with the strat subtracting one from the roll. it meant that 1d always went through.
Having played the QS strat "wrong" this entire time, I can honestly say this isn't a big deal. I'd generally rather not spend the CP to ignore damage 1 shots. If they have enough of them, it probably won't matter, and if they don't have many, then it's not worth it.
Werekill wrote: Did we ever get it cleared up on whether or not Imotek can use the Stratagem for a third MWBD?
Don't think so. Closest is:
Q: Some abilities can cause extra hits or wounds on a specifc
roll e.g. ‘Each hit roll of 6 scores 2 hits instead of 1’ and ‘Each
hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit on the target’. Are these
abilities cumulative?
A: It depends on the exact wording of the rule in
question. Rules that ‘score 2 (or more) hits instead of
1’ are not cumulative. Rules that ‘score 1 (or more)
additional hits’ are cumulative. Here are some examples
to show how these rules interact:
1. If a model is affected by two different rules that say
that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 2 hits instead
of 1’ then a hit roll of 6 will still only result in 2 hits
being scored against the target unit.
2. If a model is affected by two different rules that say
that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 1 additional
hit‘ on the target, then a hit roll of 6 will result in 3
hits being scored against the target unit.
3. If a model is affected by two different rules, one that
says that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 2 hits
instead of 1’ and one that says that on a hit roll of 6
that attack ‘scores 1 additional hit‘ against the target,
then a hit roll of 6 will result in 3 hits being scored
against the target unit.
Though this is for hits. With same logic though imhotek and stratagem use "twice" and "second time" terms so would indicate "no" according to this FAQ entry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW emergency beam stratagem. Can you combo with enchanced beam to emergency disembark two units at once? Or is having 2 units offboard sure way to lose one if gate goes boom?
Hm, I haven't played 40k in a while, wonder if Necrons got better with the new big Update that just came out.
*No point adjustments*
*Still can't bring in Mono/Scythe units on T1*
*Some token nerfs on other armies but all the stuff that makes Necrons bad in the meta remains*
*Only viable strategy is still more or less Destroyer spam*
Cool, I'll just keep building Underworlds decks then.
Actually I don't think it was that bad. Necron didn't get much boost but top dogs got hit. Castellan got hit hard and 3++ dying means likely more big AT guns on field which necron vehicles love. Also orks primary shooting unit that's also super good vs necron vehicles got hit real hard. And ynnari which was 2nd strongest dog in tournaments got wiped off.
Requizen wrote: Hm, I haven't played 40k in a while, wonder if Necrons got better with the new big Update that just came out.
*No point adjustments*
*Still can't bring in Mono/Scythe units on T1*
*Some token nerfs on other armies but all the stuff that makes Necrons bad in the meta remains*
*Only viable strategy is still more or less Destroyer spam*
Cool, I'll just keep building Underworlds decks then.
What? Necrons are certainly viable right now, especially with Knights getting heavy nerfs in this FAQ.
We aren't top tier, but we are firmly mid-high tier. Not to mention how Destroyer spam isn't even close to our only viable strategy.
Werekill wrote: Did we ever get it cleared up on whether or not Imotek can use the Stratagem for a third MWBD?
Don't think so. Closest is:
Q: Some abilities can cause extra hits or wounds on a specifc
roll e.g. ‘Each hit roll of 6 scores 2 hits instead of 1’ and ‘Each
hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit on the target’. Are these
abilities cumulative?
A: It depends on the exact wording of the rule in
question. Rules that ‘score 2 (or more) hits instead of
1’ are not cumulative. Rules that ‘score 1 (or more)
additional hits’ are cumulative. Here are some examples
to show how these rules interact:
1. If a model is affected by two different rules that say
that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 2 hits instead
of 1’ then a hit roll of 6 will still only result in 2 hits
being scored against the target unit.
2. If a model is affected by two different rules that say
that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 1 additional
hit‘ on the target, then a hit roll of 6 will result in 3
hits being scored against the target unit.
3. If a model is affected by two different rules, one that
says that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 2 hits
instead of 1’ and one that says that on a hit roll of 6
that attack ‘scores 1 additional hit‘ against the target,
then a hit roll of 6 will result in 3 hits being scored
against the target unit.
Though this is for hits. With same logic though imhotek and stratagem use "twice" and "second time" terms so would indicate "no" according to this FAQ entry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW emergency beam stratagem. Can you combo with enchanced beam to emergency disembark two units at once? Or is having 2 units offboard sure way to lose one if gate goes boom?
The FAQ does set the when two effects have a similar number of uses, you can't combine them.
And, no to combine emergency with enhanced. As emergency is modifying the normal ability and emergency is using it's own effect.
Well next tuesday first outing for my necrons. I have overlord, 24 immortals, 3 tomb blades and doomsday ark painted up. Rest are waiting for silver paint so I can get the blue done :-/
Seems I'll be facing imperial guard. Patrol detachment, max 1 vehicle, suspecting basilisk heavily.
Oh and it's cities of death so at least partially obscured at least so -1 to hit. That means basilisk firing indirect is -1 to hit quaranteed.
I'll probably be using the max advance dynasty. I like that one. Current list is overlord, 10 immortals, 3 tomb blades, dda.
Questions are what weapons for tomb blades(I have both gaus and tesla painted and magnetized). For relic veil is obvious. But what for warlord trait? I was considering the reroll charge one if opponent does have that basilisk with weird plan of veiling immortals and overlord there and using overlord to tag the basilisk in combat if opponent is careless with screening. Or at least T2 with T1 shooting holes to screen. Won't kill it but if it falls back no shooting except for overwatch. Though that can be scary...
Alternatively deep strike DDA if terrain looks hard to get LOS traditional way?
Whole game under basilisk fire -1 to hit or not doesn't appeal.
Of course lot depends on what else he has. Though good news is no russ+basilisk combo(max 1 vehicle) so...likely crapload of infantry? Which speaks in favour of tesla for tomb blades...
Forward leading dda is probably good idea. Those gaus flayers there should help with all that infantry.
Requizen wrote: Hm, I haven't played 40k in a while, wonder if Necrons got better with the new big Update that just came out.
*No point adjustments*
*Still can't bring in Mono/Scythe units on T1*
*Some token nerfs on other armies but all the stuff that makes Necrons bad in the meta remains*
*Only viable strategy is still more or less Destroyer spam*
Cool, I'll just keep building Underworlds decks then.
What? Necrons are certainly viable right now, especially with Knights getting heavy nerfs in this FAQ.
We aren't top tier, but we are firmly mid-high tier. Not to mention how Destroyer spam isn't even close to our only viable strategy.
I really admire your optimism man. But cmon, Necrons are firmly lower tier.
If we had better internal balance we would be mid-tier. But we don't, not enough of our units are viable and some are just garbage, leading to cookie cutter builds that still can't compete with the best
Sorry but internal balance isn't really measure of competive units. Competive game and most units from every codex goes to garbage bin. No codex has every unit viable in competive enviroment. 'Internal balance matters more for semi competive or casual games.
tneva82 wrote: Sorry but internal balance isn't really measure of competive units. Competive game and most units from every codex goes to garbage bin. No codex has every unit viable in competive enviroment. 'Internal balance matters more for semi competive or casual games.
Disagree. Like I said, better internal balance would bring us up from low tier to mid tier because we would have more options to deal with a wider variety of threats. This would lead to a better variety of viable tournament lists and would bring Necrons closer to that 50% win rate.
I'm not arguing that it would make us competitive at the top tables. But it would put us on par with the likes of Ad-Mech and Tyranids, the latter of which is an example of a codex that has excellent internal balance and nothing really amazing (except perhaps Genestealers) and so is comfortably mid-tier.
Personally keep seeing us being called the bottom teir, though tend to have a constant higher win than loss ratio. Even my worst tournament recently i went 2-1-2 so came 55 out 110 (yea couldn't be more mid table than that)
Defiantly dont consider the army top teir, though if played well I feel we defiantly deserve to be in the mid teir
Last event i went to, i lost to knights and eldar. While beating tau, guard and custodes. So with the new nerfs, feel i have a better chance of getting a 4-1 at the next weekend event
Cynista wrote:
I really admire your optimism man. But cmon, Necrons are firmly lower tier.
If we had better internal balance we would be mid-tier. But we don't, not enough of our units are viable and some are just garbage, leading to cookie cutter builds that still can't compete with the best
Replying to both at once.
I just don't see how we are lower than mid tier. We are in a solid place right now, with plenty of strong units. Are we top or high tier? No, although an argument can be made for being on the border of mid-high. But we definitely aren't low tier.
Has Necrons really been tested well enough to say something definitive since CA? People stopped bringing them before that, have they started bringing then to bigger tournaments after that?
torblind wrote: Has Necrons really been tested well enough to say something definitive since CA? People stopped bringing them before that, have they started bringing then to bigger tournaments after that?
torblind wrote: Has Necrons really been tested well enough to say something definitive since CA? People stopped bringing them before that, have they started bringing then to bigger tournaments after that?
LVO had a 5-1 Necrons list if I recall correctly.
Yeah the Ghost Ark list - I don't know many details about his (or her) games, but I think of that as somewhat of an anomaly until I see Ghost Arks as being the new hotness.
Cynista wrote:
I really admire your optimism man. But cmon, Necrons are firmly lower tier.
If we had better internal balance we would be mid-tier. But we don't, not enough of our units are viable and some are just garbage, leading to cookie cutter builds that still can't compete with the best
Replying to both at once.
I just don't see how we are lower than mid tier. We are in a solid place right now, with plenty of strong units. Are we top or high tier? No, although an argument can be made for being on the border of mid-high. But we definitely aren't low tier.
That doesn't seem that bad. Not top but several worse ones as well. With FAQ indirectly helping us could help us a bit.
Yes and no. Weirdly I think Necrons did OK against castellans. The guns on it are all high damage, so our QS protected our vehicles. If people start replacing them with twin Crusaders, that's bad for business.
Our worst match up IMO is Tau, and they remain untouched.
Still, I think we're in an OK spot, we'll have to see what happens to the meta, One thing we can be thankful of is that no one is building their lists to beat us lol.
Castellans might be good but everybody's response to them was not high power AT guns due to 3++ making them inefficient. So our vehicle protection was bad against their AT weapons.
Also orks had the loota bomb nerfed so that's lot less always hit on 5+(if needed) S7 -1 D2 shots coming necron's way. I'm an ork player as well(as sig should tell ) and lootas are just murder vs necrons. Tomb blades? Bye bye. Doomsday ark? What's that?
tneva82 wrote: Castellans might be good but everybody's response to them was not high power AT guns due to 3++ making them inefficient. So our vehicle protection was bad against their AT weapons.
Also orks had the loota bomb nerfed so that's lot less always hit on 5+(if needed) S7 -1 D2 shots coming necron's way. I'm an ork player as well(as sig should tell ) and lootas are just murder vs necrons. Tomb blades? Bye bye. Doomsday ark? What's that?
True, but I don't see the meta switching back to lascannons and the like anytime soon. I think spamming D2/D3 weaponry is just the best way to kill anything and everything. Lotta's getting nerfed is nice. We'll see.
Cynista wrote:
I really admire your optimism man. But cmon, Necrons are firmly lower tier.
If we had better internal balance we would be mid-tier. But we don't, not enough of our units are viable and some are just garbage, leading to cookie cutter builds that still can't compete with the best
Replying to both at once.
I just don't see how we are lower than mid tier. We are in a solid place right now, with plenty of strong units. Are we top or high tier? No, although an argument can be made for being on the border of mid-high. But we definitely aren't low tier.
It depends. If you are talking non-competitive or competitive with no allies or LoW, then we are pretty good.
If you are talking super-competitive WAACbs with allies and LoW, then we have a bit of a problem as we don't have allies, we don't have good faction trait combos, our force multipliers are a little lacking (seriously, 3" auras? feth off GW), and our LoW / anti-LoW aren't great.
That doesn't seem that bad. Not top but several worse ones as well. With FAQ indirectly helping us could help us a bit.
Yes and no. Weirdly I think Necrons did OK against castellans. The guns on it are all high damage, so our QS protected our vehicles. If people start replacing them with twin Crusaders, that's bad for business.
Our worst match up IMO is Tau, and they remain untouched.
Still, I think we're in an OK spot, we'll have to see what happens to the meta, One thing we can be thankful of is that no one is building their lists to beat us lol.
Exactly. With everyone referencing the 5-1 Necrons list as an indicator that we're not low tier, we should take the time to look at why it did so well (ignoring the player skill, because I'm sure the person is a great player) in the Castellan meta.
3 DDAs 2 Ghost Arks
1 CCB
Almost half of the list has QS making them ignore most damage from the knight.
If we want to look at the average Necrons placement in LVO, ~425, and check that against the total number of players at LVO, 662 according to BCP, Necron players place in the ((662 - 425) / 662) * 100 = 35.8% percentile. Meaning the average Necron player can expect to place better than 35.8% of other 40k players on average.
Looking at the other mono factions as a reference, Tau players place around 325 and Orkz place around 300, putting them in the 50.9% percentile and 54.7% percentile respectively.
We were fortunate to not get nerfed by the FAQ, but I doubt the nerfs GW handed out to other factions is enough to close the performance gap seen at LVO.
We do have better tools against Tau since CA2018 though. I play against VERY good Tau players, and have for years. Getting my butt handed to me by them is a common occurrence.
Doom Scythes are one such addition. The most dangerous Tau builds are going to be battlesuit gunlines where they have to bunch up to take advantage of shield drones and force multipliers such as commanders and cadres. If you can go first, the Doom Scythes can wreak havoc on those multipliers. I've had several games where I've knocked out 600+ points just with the Doom Scythes on the first turn and they were left with no commanders or shield drones. Now that said, if they go first, you are in trouble.
Also, the mech Tau list is gaining steam as a more common build and quite frankly, it's one of our best match ups. We can absolutely wreck Tau vehicles. I've yet to lose a game to one of these lists
So, I've been playing Orks competitively for the last two years, basically since 8th came out, with the exception of a brief Necron kick last year where I took them to Nova and BfS. In both those cases I took them to the final rounds of my (low tier) brackets before getting kinda thrashed at the finish line, and then I came to my senses and returned to Orky goodness.
Well, it's that time of year again when I get the urge to play robots. I'm just now driving up to Ottawa for an ITC Major this weekend. Two weekends ago I managed to win a local RTT with Necrons , beating both Mech Tau and Imperial Soup on the way! Two weeks from now I'm playing in a GT called Steel City Slaughter in Pittsburgh, so it's go time for my Necrons and I need some help.
Lists are due by midnight for the Ottawa event, and they're using the new FAQ. Ynnari are still a thing for the moment, but everything else is "new."
Can y'all help me throw a list together? I won the RTT but that puts me at 4 games with Necrons since last October, haha. Here's what I've brought on the trip:
So I've got to make a list from that. I am mostly not planning to use the Wraiths, but they're a good hard anchor unit with Nihilakh, and can charge Elder Flyers....
Personally, I'd save some points by dropping the Spearhead and the Cloaktek that you are using for the HQ. You should have enough CP to do most of what you need to do already. You could then invest that into more tomb blades or Scarabs.
Played a list quite similar for a friendly game today (versus Tau), and the first time playing the 3 Doomscythes.
Had the 1st turn. Even with full cover with a building, a blob coudn't escape the Doomscythes mobility and the dice were hot :
- 6 Firewarriors
- 8+2 Pathfinders (2 due to morale)
- 5 Shield Drones
- 8 wounds to a riptide
Needless to say that the Doomscythes were focussed the next turn, leaving room for the Destroyers to shine.
I won quite heavily, but had good dice rolls and my opponent not so much.
The List :
Sautekh Battalion
Imotekh
Chronotek with Veil
I only rock 2 DDA... I still have not recovered fully from assembling the first 2 (plus my psychotic kitbash to them) and have no desire to make a thrid lol.
I think 2 are fine considering just how many units are viable now. I am generally out of points with like 3 things I'd still love to drop in anyway. That said, I'd obviously never try to convince someone to not take 3 if they have them.
The trio of doomscythes is more important obviously. I love these things and they are so easy to build lol.
Shaelinith wrote: Played a list quite similar for a friendly game today (versus Tau), and the first time playing the 3 Doomscythes.
Had the 1st turn. Even with full cover with a building, a blob coudn't escape the Doomscythes mobility and the dice were hot :
- 6 Firewarriors
- 8+2 Pathfinders (2 due to morale)
- 5 Shield Drones
- 8 wounds to a riptide
Needless to say that the Doomscythes were focussed the next turn, leaving room for the Destroyers to shine.
I won quite heavily, but had good dice rolls and my opponent not so much.
The List :
Sautekh Battalion
Imotekh
Chronotek with Veil
How do we counter an ork horde ? There is an ork player at my FLGS who always brings 3x30 boyz. He always sets them up way outside of my weapons range and uses warpath and da jump on T1 to get them 9.1" away from my units. Most of them time he makes the charge roll, because he can re-roll one or both dice, plus the command re-roll. I screen with scarabs in front of my tesla immortals, but thats not enough. 120 attacks usually kills the scarab screen, or makes a big enough hole which allows him to pile in towards my tesla immortals. 10 tesla immortals with MWBD cant kill 30 boyz. Only one ork needs to stay alive and he plays the 3CP stratagem which allows him to set up the unit again at FULL STRENGTH, where ever he wants, within 6" of any edge of the battlefield, and more than 9" from enemy units. Its like he has ~250 more points (the cost of 30 ork boyz). If i focus fire the jumped boyz, and try to wipe them out, another unit of 30 boyz with warboss, painboy, weirdboy, nob with banner advance towards my units. And because they can still charge after advancing he usually charges them T2.
Even if i get first turn and manage to get some of my units within weapons range i am actually doing him a favor by shooting at his ork boyz, he plays that 3CP stratagem and sets them up right in front of my units. One way would be to not kill more than half of the unit (he can only play that 3CP strat if he lost more than half of the unit), but thats hard to do, i cant stop firing when i want to, and 16 boyz is still a threat. This is just the boyz, he has more bikes, fast vehicles, which get in my face T2, sometimes even T1.
p5freak wrote: How do we counter an ork horde ? There is an ork player at my FLGS who always brings 3x30 boyz. He always sets them up way outside of my weapons range and uses warpath and da jump on T1 to get them 9.1" away from my units. Most of them time he makes the charge roll, because he can re-roll one or both dice, plus the command re-roll. I screen with scarabs in front of my tesla immortals, but thats not enough. 120 attacks usually kills the scarab screen, or makes a big enough hole which allows him to pile in towards my tesla immortals. 10 tesla immortals with MWBD cant kill 30 boyz. Only one ork needs to stay alive and he plays the 3CP stratagem which allows him to set up the unit again at FULL STRENGTH, where ever he wants, within 6" of any edge of the battlefield, and more than 9" from enemy units. Its like he has ~250 more points (the cost of 30 ork boyz). If i focus fire the jumped boyz, and try to wipe them out, another unit of 30 boyz with warboss, painboy, weirdboy, nob with banner advance towards my units. And because they can still charge after advancing he usually charges them T2.
Even if i get first turn and manage to get some of my units within weapons range i am actually doing him a favor by shooting at his ork boyz, he plays that 3CP stratagem and sets them up right in front of my units. One way would be to not kill more than half of the unit (he can only play that 3CP strat if he lost more than half of the unit), but thats hard to do, i cant stop firing when i want to, and 16 boyz is still a threat. This is just the boyz, he has more bikes, fast vehicles, which get in my face T2, sometimes even T1.
Leave more than 5" between your scarabs and troops that way he can't consolidate into your Immortals. If you can, have 2 units of 10 Tesla Immortals using MWBD. That should get you out of his first assault. Take note that you'll need to prepare your units for a second screen against the 2nd unit of boyz.
Leave more than 5" between your scarabs and troops that way he can't consolidate into your Immortals. If you can, have 2 units of 10 Tesla Immortals using MWBD. That should get you out of his first assault. Take note that you'll need to prepare your units for a second screen against the 2nd unit of boyz.
Thats what i am already doing. Not 5", 4" is enough. Scarab bases are more than 1" in diameter. But i almost never manage to kill all of those boyz, and they all return with the 3CP stratagem. I have 2x9 scarabs as screen, but i feel like i need like 4x9 to screen against all these orks. And with two screens, and 5" space between each screen, and tesla immortals, i may run out of deployment zone space. My tesla immortals wont be able to shoot when i get first turn, because they are so far back
Leave more than 5" between your scarabs and troops that way he can't consolidate into your Immortals. If you can, have 2 units of 10 Tesla Immortals using MWBD. That should get you out of his first assault. Take note that you'll need to prepare your units for a second screen against the 2nd unit of boyz.
Thats what i am already doing. Not 5", 4" is enough. Scarab bases are more than 1" in diameter. But i almost never manage to kill all of those boyz, and they all return with the 3CP stratagem. I have 2x9 scarabs as screen, but i feel like i need like 4x9 to screen against all these orks. And with two screens, and 5" space between each screen, and tesla immortals, i may run out of deployment zone space. My tesla immortals wont be able to shoot when i get first turn, because they are so far back
Going out on a limb here...
Could it work to put something up that they can't kill in one turn of CC? Wraiths should weather 120 attacks, of course they would get softened up in shooting phase first, but you could perhaps pull from front to make charge harder?
Or wraiths and scarabs in close lines, he would shoot some off but perhaps not reach both units in CC with enough boys to wipe one unit off anymore?
Now turn two, could you pull back, charge in with something else to keep them busy, fire everything at boys unit nr 2 and/or unit 3 and leave unit 1 entangled as a road block?
Hard to pull off and at best situational I fear, bit of nothing else works could be worth investigating. Also things like terrain etc would play a part
Alas we can't block with aircraft anymore.
.. also anything T5/2W/3+ could weather those 120 attacks I think? Haven't played orks much.
Against T5-7, that's 27 wounds.
So that's 9 wounds against a 3+ save. BUT the Boss Nob can have better gear, so I'd want more than 10 wounds as a safeguard.
Against T5-7, that's 27 wounds.
So that's 9 wounds against a 3+ save. BUT the Boss Nob can have better gear, so I'd want more than 10 wounds as a safeguard.
So wraiths and T5 elites are safe so far, problem is the preceding shooting phase.
The Tesseract Ark has some nice anti CC features but might not help in this case. It'd get shot up first and explode to kill parts of your remaining screen
Edit: or could aircraft be used to road block? Boys can't charge them, and would need to clear every one of those models 1" away from it if moving under it. Of course they Aldo til the risk of getting shot up but they are -1 to hit..
Something to consider. You could even keep a unit on the tomb world to drop down if they get shot not to leave a hole.
More crazy ideas.. Deceiver up two night scythes after each other on their path to make it hard to clear passed both.
Or... Deceiver up an Obelisk, it would take some effort to shift and would be a real road block. But that list is hardly TAC any more
Its not 120 attacks, its 150. Base is 2, +1 for melee weapon, +1 for warpath, +1 for greentide (more than 20 models). In addition, he plays them as goffs, which create additional attacks on unmodified hit rolls of 6s. And for 1CP they get S5 They would eat wraith for breakfast And on top of that they can fight again for 3CP at the end of the phase There is no screen in the entire game who would work against that. And thats just the boyz, he can pull off more shenanigans with other units.
If they are goff they aren't reliable chargers with 58% odds of making it. So if they are always making it instist him to use your dice rather than loaded dices
p5freak wrote: Its not 120 attacks, its 150. Base is 2, +1 for melee weapon, +1 for warpath, +1 for greentide (more than 20 models). In addition, he plays them as goffs, which create additional attacks on unmodified hit rolls of 6s. And for 1CP they get S5 They would eat wraith for breakfast And on top of that they can fight again for 3CP at the end of the phase There is no screen in the entire game who would work against that. And thats just the boyz, he can pull off more shenanigans with other units.
Hm yeah that's quite a lot. According to stats that just about eats the last wound of 20 T5/3+ wounds too. On average. Not to mention fighting again. It would have to be some screening shenanigans then, and otherwise tactical very clever play.
150 attacks with 6+ exploding hitting on a 3+, gets an average of 100+(25*2/3)=117, just under, hits.
Against T3-4, that's 78 wounds.
Against T5, that's a little over 58 wounds.
Against T6-9, that's 39 wounds.
So it won't QUITE take out 20 T5 3+ wounds on average, assuming the Boss Nob only has a Choppa, but it'll get damn close.
Of course, there's that 58% chance of making a charge to deal with. (Also, once you reroll something, no more rerolling it-so a CP reroll should never be used with 'Ere We Go.)
He can use first cp reroll to reroll one dice and then here we go the other. Neither dice is rerolled more than once. But he has to commit to using cp first(it's immediately after).
So rolls 4 and 1. Reroll 1 with cp, get 3. Not enough. He could then with ork rule roll 4 again hoping for 6.
Odds increase lot more and costs 1cp even if first reroll succeeds as cp reroll has to be done first
Automatically Appended Next Post: So in practice if charge isn't game deciding don't expect orks to do thap. Just not worth it
tneva82 wrote: If they are goff they aren't reliable chargers with 58% odds of making it. So if they are always making it instist him to use your dice rather than loaded dices
Everyone plays Evil Sunz* in my experience. There's still a very real chance of them failing even with 8" and re-roll one or both* and that will often lose them the game. Orks can only use the Unstoppable Green Tide Stratagem if they are at half their starting strength. Killing 10 models one turn and 20 the next turn works. Killing 19-29 will cost the Orks 5 CP to pass their LD and get back to full strength, killing 14-19 will cost 3 CP because they will survive the LD on their own and be able to UGT. If you stop at 10 you know your opponent cannot UGP, if you get to 19 but you know you won't kill the remaining 11 you might as well stop immediately. Ork Stratagems are very potent, you have to play very cagey to survive the initial onslaught but if you do then you should have it in the bag. Use ruins to make your units unchargeable if you are not playing ITC. The new FAQ nerfs the fight again Strat because the unit has to be in combat to use it and of course the Loota bomb is dead. Loota bomb not being a thing makes Tesla Blades with Shield Vanes a lot better against Orks. Sautekh is mandatory for beating Orks, so many big units to target with the Stratagem and obliterate with Tesla. I wouldn't bother with melee if possible, we have no units that are better in melee than Ork boyz, as a last ditch attempt to do things to Ork Boyz with captives maybe, but you would be better off not having units taken captive in the first place IE running shooting units with FLY.
JNAProductions wrote: 150 attacks with 6+ exploding hitting on a 3+, gets an average of 100+(25*2/3)=117, just under, hits.
Against T3-4, that's 78 wounds.
Against T5, that's a little over 58 wounds.
Against T6-9, that's 39 wounds.
So it won't QUITE take out 20 T5 3+ wounds on average, assuming the Boss Nob only has a Choppa, but it'll get damn close.
Of course, there's that 58% chance of making a charge to deal with. (Also, once you reroll something, no more rerolling it-so a CP reroll should never be used with 'Ere We Go.)
Yeah math says 19.44 , but either way it's high enough that we need contingency plans or better strategies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How about just feeding them 10 Tesla immortals and use the scarab screens to move up and block the second wave?
Those immortals kill 5-6 boys in overwatch.
10 other immortals with a Lord kill another 20 and rest of army mops up the rest. Or moral takes them. Just pay attention not to meet the criterion to let him replenish the unit.
Heck 4/10 times he's not getting his charge off, leaving them as sitting dicks for said immortals.
When that's done and over with her is hopefully eating through the second of 9 scarab units and you have just about time to compose yourself for the rest.
tneva82 wrote: If they are goff they aren't reliable chargers with 58% odds of making it. So if they are always making it instist him to use your dice rather than loaded dices
Everyone plays Blood Axes in my experience. There's still a very real chance of them failing even with Blood Axes and that will often lose them the game. Orks can only use the Unstoppable Green Tide Stratagem if they are at half their starting strength. Killing 10 models one turn and 20 the next turn works. Killing 19-29 will cost the Orks 5 CP to pass their LD and get back to full strength, killing 14-19 will cost 3 CP because they will survive the LD on their own and be able to UGT. If you stop at 10 you know your opponent cannot UGP, if you get to 19 but you know you won't kill the remaining 11 you might as well stop immediately. Ork Stratagems are very potent, you have to play very cagey to survive the initial onslaught but if you do then you should have it in the bag. Use ruins to make your units unchargeable if you are not playing ITC. The new FAQ nerfs the fight again Strat because the unit has to be in combat to use it and of course the Loota bomb is dead. Loota bomb not being a thing makes Tesla Blades with Shield Vanes a lot better against Orks. Sautekh is mandatory for beating Orks, so many big units to target with the Stratagem and obliterate with Tesla. I wouldn't bother with melee if possible, we have no units that are better in melee than Ork boyz, as a last ditch attempt to do things to Ork Boyz with captives maybe, but you would be better off not having units taken captive in the first place IE running shooting units with FLY.
Presumably you mean evil suns with their +1 to charge which gives them 78% chance and not blood axe with their count as cover outside 18"?-) One of the LEAST used clans I suspect...
And agreed on the UGT suggestions. I find rarely using that because either the unit flat out dies(orks are not tough) or opponent stops at right time. 18 orks isn't nearly as scary as 30.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Casual tournament coming up in june. Yey. I prefer the casual tournaments because people bring in...well more casual lists ;-) Especially good as I don't have models yet for anything resembling competive necrons.
I'm aiming to bring nightbringer if I can paint it as cool as I imagine it will look(of course I'm not super painter so plan could fail horribly...). 1500 pts, no detachment limitation(ran into this in today's competive tournament. Blew me off the floor though it clearly actually reads in rules of tournaments...but that's how common max 3 det's is...), max 3 non-troop, non-dedicated transport dataslate. And since it's casual players are requested to self-censor worst competive lists. Oh and no super heavies.
So here's list. I'm at 1463. What on earth can I cram in? With orks I just throw in like mek gun but not much cheap stuff for necrons...And my model count isn't large...Would have liked lychguard for fun(love the models) but just couldn't figure way to fit them even semi sensibly.
Spoiler:
Battallion: nephrek
Overlord(warscythe, ignore morale warlord trait, veil of darkness)
cryptek(5++ inv vs ranged)
10+9 tesla immortal
5 tesla immortal(if you wonder why I have this odd number 2nd hand deal had 1 deathmark and 4 unbuilt immortals...I intend to buy 1 box just to fill that to 25 immortals and 5 deathmarks)
20xwarrior
2x4 scarab swarms
3xtomb blades(2 with shieldvanes and ignore cover, 1 with 5++)
doomsday ark
doom scythe
nightbringer
Sooo. Not most competive but hey it\s casual. It's not supposed to be cut throat list. And I expect others to not be(while they won't be total sucky lists people do generally self policy rather well).
So suggestions on what to do with rest of points? Could get like tomb blade or 2 more immortals. Guess box of either won't kill my budget.
p5freak wrote: Its not 120 attacks, its 150. Base is 2, +1 for melee weapon, +1 for warpath, +1 for greentide (more than 20 models). In addition, he plays them as goffs, which create additional attacks on unmodified hit rolls of 6s. And for 1CP they get S5 They would eat wraith for breakfast And on top of that they can fight again for 3CP at the end of the phase There is no screen in the entire game who would work against that. And thats just the boyz, he can pull off more shenanigans with other units.
Hm yeah that's quite a lot. According to stats that just about eats the last wound of 20 T5/3+ wounds too. On average. Not to mention fighting again. It would have to be some screening shenanigans then, and otherwise tactical very clever play.
What else does he have in his army?
Warboss, Nob with banner, weirdboy(s), painboy, 10-15 lootas, traktor cannon(s), smasha cannon(s), orks on bikes, shokkjump dragsta. Some of these.
Personally, it sounds like regarding orks, that your screen needs to be much further pushed out. Having 3 inches or so between your screen and the charger is a problem. ideally, 5-7 inches will keep your army safe. remember, you only need 3 scarabs really to deny a whole lot of real estate to deep strikers. They cost 39 points too. If they die, they die. Oh well. But they keep your shooters safe.
With MWBD, your tesla immortals (With Mephrit ideally in my mind considering the close quarters), should delete squads of boys with impunity
JNAProductions wrote: Well, BS 3+ with Tesla is 1 hit per shot.
With MWBD, that jumps to 1.5 hits per shot, which conveniently maths out to 1 wound per shot.
So, with Mephrit, you're looking at downing the full mob of 30 Boyz with just two squads of Teslamortals-the second doesn't even have to be full.
If you aren't Mephrit, that increases to 18 total Teslamortals with MWBD to kill.
Problem is turn two he 60 more boyz incoming, he needs to start shooting at those too and he can only take three units of tesla immortals.
Take fliers. Deploy them in front of your army. If he goes first he has to move and use Da jump before ever getting any shots so he can't counter them. He will not even be able to declare a charge with his boys and you will screen him back 9.1" from your deployment zone.
Easy.
Then in your turn murder his boys with tesla. Use the fliers to mortal wound strat his lootas if they are behind grots.
Because we play with only three times the same datasheet.
torblind wrote:Edit actually T5 Nihilakh elites with +1 to save would survive 150 attacks S5, fighting twice!
And that ferocious lone survivor even has +1 A to fight back with
Of course you would have to go first to play it.
That's one problem. Another is he could da jump where my Wraith aren't.
Red Corsair wrote:Take fliers. Deploy them in front of your army. If he goes first he has to move and use Da jump before ever getting any shots so he can't counter them. He will not even be able to declare a charge with his boys and you will screen him back 9.1" from your deployment zone.
Easy.
Then in your turn murder his boys with tesla. Use the fliers to mortal wound strat his lootas if they are behind grots.
Good idea. I don't have any fliers, though. And his traktor cannons love to shoot at fliers.
Red Corsair wrote: Take fliers. Deploy them in front of your army. If he goes first he has to move and use Da jump before ever getting any shots so he can't counter them. He will not even be able to declare a charge with his boys and you will screen him back 9.1" from your deployment zone.
Easy.
Then in your turn murder his boys with tesla. Use the fliers to mortal wound strat his lootas if they are behind grots.
That is a nice idea. You would have to bring more then I guess, to cover more angles.
You could even have 20 flayed ones waiting in the tomb world. If he drops his boyz within 9" of the flyer (unable to charge), you drop the flayed ones in your turn, 6" away from them, move them up and charge. With +1S they would eat almost 30 on their own.
Also ork infantry don't really like vehicles. Tough cracks. Especially vs inf heavy orks dda could be used to screen as the main gun isn't big deal vs infantry
elook wrote: What did your Immortals prioritise on? Shield Drones or the Fire Warriors?
The drone were not in range of the immortals all the game, but T2 the last two Doomscythe (one with 2PV ) and the Destroyers cleaned them (shooting them directly of forcing them to tank hits).
I killed 5 units of Fire warrior turn one
The immortals took objective and put some shots on Firewarriors when in range, but they didn't shoot a lot this game. But in other games it's usually their job. I try to stay at maximum range to avoid the triple shot.
My big problem versus Tau is the Riptides. Even without drones they're a tough nut to crack. Maybe a third DDA would work here.
You're going to have to shoot the boyz before they get in combat. Nothing we have can beat 30 boyz in a straight fight. If they can teleport in with Da Jump you might want to use a scarab screen or even a warrior screen to slow them down. They will die, but as long as your real damage dealers survive you can manage.
tneva82 wrote: Bloodletters say "hi" in terms of beating them in straight fight.
Also 30 plague bearers have taken charge of 60 boyz and wartrike and lived to tell the tale. Grumble grumble.
I was not aware that bloodletters is a necron unit What the other factions can do is irrelevant. What matters is what we can or can't do. And we can't deal with a horde of CC specialists. Against CC fodder like hormagaunts? Fine. Against the likes of Genestealers and Orks? Only if you are lucky.
Overlord(warscythe, ignore morale warlord trait, veil of darkness)
cryptek(5++ inv vs ranged)
10+9 tesla immortal
5 tesla immortal(if you wonder why I have this odd number 2nd hand deal had 1 deathmark and 4 unbuilt immortals...I intend to buy 1 box just to fill that to 25 immortals and 5 deathmarks)
20xwarrior
2x4 scarab swarms
3xtomb blades(2 with shieldvanes and ignore cover, 1 with 5++)
doomsday ark
doom scythe
nightbringer
[/spoiler]
Sooo. Not most competive but hey it\s casual. It's not supposed to be cut throat list. And I expect others to not be(while they won't be total sucky lists people do generally self policy rather well).
So suggestions on what to do with rest of points? Could get like tomb blade or 2 more immortals. Guess box of either won't kill my budget.
Why Nephrek ?
With a Doomscythe i would go with Sautekh, or don't take a Doomscythe at all (D3 shot hitting on 4+ ... ugh). Nephrek can give you acces to deep strike, but it's only on infantry (the 20 warriors blob ?).
I personally love the Nightbringer (with Cosmic Fire), but i found that he works better if he has some protection like Wraith. Scarabs can work and you can put them out of sight but they don't last long, and Nighbringer without support will not last long either.
With sautek 1 unit really benefit from dynasty. Immortals, warriors etc don't. More units benefit from nephrek than sautek. And without flyer i have just dda for at. Even without super heavies that's not much. What if i run against say triple russ? Twin repulsor?
tneva82 wrote: With sautek 1 unit really benefit from dynasty. Immortals, warriors etc don't. More units benefit from nephrek than sautek. And without flyer i have just dda for at. Even without super heavies that's not much. What if i run against say triple russ? Twin repulsor?
With sautekh you gain the Methodical Destruction but that's expensive.
With nephrek you don't have a lot of units you want to advance. You lose the proc of Tesla (unless MWBD), the warrior blob can't shoot after an advance, ...
Nephrek imho is good for things like Wraiths (auto advance and charge stratagem), or things you really want to Deepstrike (Destroyers, but warriors blob can work).
But with your list, you could also try Mephrit (if you Veil them).
For antitank, even with the Doomscythe you're light anyway. Both the DDA and the Doomscythe are random. Good luck then.
tneva82 wrote: Bloodletters say "hi" in terms of beating them in straight fight.
Also 30 plague bearers have taken charge of 60 boyz and wartrike and lived to tell the tale. Grumble grumble.
I was not aware that bloodletters is a necron unit What the other factions can do is irrelevant. What matters is what we can or can't do. And we can't deal with a horde of CC specialists. Against CC fodder like hormagaunts? Fine. Against the likes of Genestealers and Orks? Only if you are lucky.
You didn't specify necrons only and made orks sound some all conquering monster when they are actually very soft and dependant on getting 30 boyz into combat which is easier to say than do. Vs good player it's actually rather hard. Terrain can be used to hinder ork assault just by position. Park yourself into craters, woods or obstacles and watch ork player hate you. Those goffs will be needing 11" to charge you yippiyee. Vehicles can also be used to blunt ork assault efficiently. And of course shooting 11-12 of them and the unit is no longer much of a threat.
Eventhough I have 25mm base I rarely get even close to 30 to combat. It's simply too easy to make ork players life annoying. And goffs are even worse on that regard.
What do you do when tougher harder hitting unit comes along your way? One that's also faster...
tneva82 wrote: With sautek 1 unit really benefit from dynasty. Immortals, warriors etc don't. More units benefit from nephrek than sautek. And without flyer i have just dda for at. Even without super heavies that's not much. What if i run against say triple russ? Twin repulsor?
With sautekh you gain the Methodical Destruction but that's expensive.
With nephrek you don't have a lot of units you want to advance. You lose the proc of Tesla (unless MWBD), the warrior blob can't shoot after an advance, ...
Nephrek imho is good for things like Wraiths (auto advance and charge stratagem), or things you really want to Deepstrike (Destroyers, but warriors blob can work).
But with your list, you could also try Mephrit (if you Veil them).
For antitank, even with the Doomscythe you're light anyway. Both the DDA and the Doomscythe are random. Good luck then.
Not many units in the edition of super tough deathstars or msu where that stratagem is helpful though.
And movement is pretty damn useful. a) objectives. I need to get around to score maelstrom cards AND I need to either score progressively objectives or ensure I can reach toward the end or I'm giving up on vp's. b) first turn if I can't move fast I can't neccessary even shoot with say immortals. 24" range + movement=not that much. Even orks will generally have troops on board over 30" from you so...29" just ain't cutting it if I don't want to waste T1 shooting complee
Oh and regarding nightbringer worry isn't going to be long range guns but more of deep striking nastyness. When boards have terrain to hide a knight nightbringer shouldn't be issue and scarabs should be able to have even easier time hiding.
tneva82 wrote:Also ork infantry don't really like vehicles. Tough cracks. Especially vs inf heavy orks dda could be used to screen as the main gun isn't big deal vs infantry
No. Not really. Traktor Cannons will deal 2D6 damage (discarding lowest dice) against them, which will be easy to ignore with QS. However, 90 successful melee attacks from the boyz will deal 30 wounds, and a DDA only has a 4+ sv.
JNAProductions wrote:
Even for troops? That's an odd rule. What other houserules are in place?
No, not for troops. I dont have more than 3x10 immortals, though. Im not sure i would want to bring 40 or 50 immortals.
The list is 4/4 in practice games, though I've not faced anything I'd call top tier yet. The tournament rules nerf soup somewhat (only use relics, strats, and traits from primary detachment) so hopefully that will level the playing field a bit. I'll report back how I do.
Ended up going 2-3.
Game 1 was against Ad Mech + Salamanders. This was a list I'd expect to win against all day to be honest. It was using the Vigilus detachment for punchy robots. Nothing scary, comfortable win.
Game 2 was Blood Angels. Smoked his Leviathan turn 1, took out both his Helverins turn 2. One of them expldoed, damaging his smash captain and 3 librarians. It wasn't his day.
Game 3 was Drukhari soup. It was the list. 6 Talos, 3 ravagers, 2 jet fighters, Eldar psychic support (new FAQ wasn't in use). My dice went arctic, but even if they hadn't, I don't think I had a chance here.
Game 4 was Tau. Another terrifying top tier list. Riptide, 3 broadsides, 5 Piranha, Skyray, firewarriors and drones out the wazzo. managed to take out most of his drones and get the riptide to one wound on my opening turn. Got smoked after that.
Game 5 was Knights. Got siezed on, Landstrder Errant got all up in my grill. I killed it, but I wanted to ignore him and focus down the crusader. This was Visions of Victory and his cards were on fire. I had no bad objectives to give him.
Not bad for my first tournament. made some mistakes, but I think this list did OK. The Drukhari player I faced won the whole thing, while the Tau guy came 3rd so I don't feel too bad about getting spanked by them. facing these lists, you can really see that we lack the force multipliers to top lists have.
I played a 3200 game vs orks and won. Admittedly it was was against a player who made some very odd decisions (he did the green tide thing to me but then chose not to charge my immortals, also had a gargantuan squiggoth that didn't move at all until round 4).
One of the things I could afford to do at that points level was bring 20 Mephrit Deathmarks. They did a solid job softening up a unit that arrived via Da Jump and Green Tide.
One other thing I did in that game was bring two units of 6 Wraiths and make sure to have them engage something in combat before it could get close. If I can destroy it, great, but otherwise I've tied it up before it can get downfield and threaten my lines.
Played first round of escalation league. 500 pts, patrol, max 1 vehicle, city of death rules. I had overlord, 10 tesla immortal, 3 tesla tomb blade, dda. Was up against krieg with 2 officers, 2 basic squads, 1 grenadier squad with 2 melta, 10 guys with d2 shotguns that wound inf on 2+ but die on 1 and basilisk.
Against basilisk lord had veil and reroll charge trait. He ran forward and killed 1 immortal. Quantum shield, boosted by stratagem, kept dda safe. -1 to hit for basilisk also helped. My turn lord and immortal, both my will be doned ds:ed behind him. Solar pulse to negate cover and despite -1 to hit 9 died from inf squad. Immune to morale from shooting bc krieg. Lord charged basilisk taking 3 wounds. Stupidly charged officer with immortals and got stuck there. And overlord was in open.
T2 those weird shotguns killed warlord and half squad died to own guns. Dda took 7 wounds so living metal helped. I killed lotsa infantry again and caused 4 wounds vs basilisk with weak shot degrading with 2 from overlord. immortal finally killed officer and i stupidly consolidiated into lone trooper.
T3 he shot all at dda and didn't do anything. My turn tomb blades finished mortars and dda killed more infantry. Boom.
T4 dda still safe, 2 troopers charge immortals on principle that safer to charge than face shooting. My turn kill bit more infantry around. My immortals finally start to repair after getting whittled to 3 guys with no rp pass.
T5 and he killed like 1 immortal. Quantum kept melta from doing harm as he kept rolling 5+ for damage despite staying far. My turn finished basilisk with low power(moved to objective) and vaporised warlord with immortals. Tomb blades took 3rd objective and killed more infantry from last squad leaving 4 and we called it here.
My casualties: overlord, 3 immortals. His casualties 7 units and 6/10 from last squad and really short of game ending on dice roll they were dead anyway.
Win for team xenos. Orks also won, eldar lost. 4th guy didn't play this round(so many players we spread games through month)
Dda and it's gaus flayers was star. Albeit helped with dice roll. But keeping aggressive with it with 20 s5 -1 shots paid off
tneva82 wrote: Played first round of escalation league. 500 pts, patrol, max 1 vehicle, city of death rules. I had overlord, 10 tesla immortal, 3 tesla tomb blade, dda. Was up against krieg with 2 officers, 2 basic squads, 1 grenadier squad with 2 melta, 10 guys with d2 shotguns that wound inf on 2+ but die on 1 and basilisk.
Against basilisk lord had veil and reroll charge trait. He ran forward and killed 1 immortal. Quantum shield, boosted by stratagem, kept dda safe. -1 to hit for basilisk also helped. My turn lord and immortal, both my will be doned ds:ed behind him. Solar pulse to negate cover and despite -1 to hit 9 died from inf squad. Immune to morale from shooting bc krieg. Lord charged basilisk taking 3 wounds. Stupidly charged officer with immortals and got stuck there. And overlord was in open.
T2 those weird shotguns killed warlord and half squad died to own guns. Dda took 7 wounds so living metal helped. I killed lotsa infantry again and caused 4 wounds vs basilisk with weak shot degrading with 2 from overlord. immortal finally killed officer and i stupidly consolidiated into lone trooper.
T3 he shot all at dda and didn't do anything. My turn tomb blades finished mortars and dda killed more infantry. Boom.
T4 dda still safe, 2 troopers charge immortals on principle that safer to charge than face shooting. My turn kill bit more infantry around. My immortals finally start to repair after getting whittled to 3 guys with no rp pass.
T5 and he killed like 1 immortal. Quantum kept melta from doing harm as he kept rolling 5+ for damage despite staying far. My turn finished basilisk with low power(moved to objective) and vaporised warlord with immortals. Tomb blades took 3rd objective and killed more infantry from last squad leaving 4 and we called it here.
My casualties: overlord, 3 immortals. His casualties 7 units and 6/10 from last squad and really short of game ending on dice roll they were dead anyway.
Win for team xenos. Orks also won, eldar lost. 4th guy didn't play this round(so many players we spread games through month)
Dda and it's gaus flayers was star. Albeit helped with dice roll. But keeping aggressive with it with 20 s5 -1 shots paid off
Oh right. Anyway vs IG no big deal with T3 and T7.
And yes low points def help so good that at least I scored win here when odds were biggest! Would be bad start to lose when odds are mostly in my favour. Though 40 infantry, basilisk and 3 mortars were scary and had he had bit more luck vs dda on T2 things could have been different. Then again had I not failed to kill the 1 trooper or not consolidiated there in the first place again would have been better for me and tomb blades were rolling badly.
Next round is 800 and can be battallion and no extra restrictions. Wonder what to field then.
3 potential lists:
Spoiler:
overlord w/warscythe
cryptek with 5++ thing
10xtesla immortal
2x5 tesla immortal
dda doom scythe
Scythe is bit of meh yes and no fast units this time in form of tomb blades :( Expecting potentially more vehicles though...And nephrek helps with speed if need be.
Spoiler:
overlord w/warscythe
cryptek with 5++ thing
10xtesla immortal
5 tesla immortal
20xwarrior
dda
No flyer with it's -1 to hit, less immortals but whopping big block of warriors. At 800 pts could be reasonably tough nutter. Obviously overlord would have immune to morale warlord trait.
Spoiler:
overlord
cryptek
3x5 tesla immortal
dda 4xscarab
nightbringer
This plays on the wish to use nightbringer IF I can get it painted as well as I want. Not sure is it really good option this small game but it's there if I like my paintjob. Rather small in terms of troops though...
Sentry Pylons; any good at all? I picked one up to use as scenery, but the heat gun option looks useable for some deepstriking melta. Potentially stronger damage than a DDA and doesn’t need to start on the board. But it’s kind of expensive and super fragile.
Sentry pylons suck. One with heat cannon is 145, with teleportation matrix 155 pts. A DDA is 160 pts. Compare the guns. 36" vs 72". S8 vs. S10, DD6 vs. DD6. You would need to deepstrike the pylon within 18" to get the 2D6 damage roll. Then you roll a 1 for the number of shots. Then it needs to be sautekh, or you get -1 to hit. On your opponents turn he will charge it with some cheap chaff unit, tie it up in melee, and your pylon is useless.
Well at least the range wouldn't be issue here. After 36" LOS becomes bigger issue than range. But rest are valid. Myself wouldn't take heat ray though but the gaus thing. Cheaper and does something better than dda's. Specifically fliers. Maybe not best options there but not everything has to be optimized to death and the eldar flying circuis is and will be very popular. Likely even more popular than before.
Oh yeah point drop would be nice. But at least gaus version has some role. The heat one indeed is rather meh. Especially now that deep strike is T2 earliest so you are at serious point disadvantage at turn 1. Half the time opponent has shot twice before that pylon gets to fire at all.
Necrons could do with lots of point drops(28 pts for lychguard? Holy smoke)
I think there's been a bit of chatter on this recently, but how are people feeling about the Big Pylon post FAQ?
Now that knights are limited to a 4++ I think it has to be back in contention. It's also great anti-flyer support, something else we struggle with and it throws out a decent 5++ bubble to hide our DDAs in.
I wouldn't call expensive unit that relies getting into combat with knight as particularly good unit...Knights tend to run around with 50-60 infantry troopers to be used as screens so getting there requires "bit" luck.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way how tall the model is? I'm bit worried about the immobile part. There's quite a lot of terrain with even castellan hiding terrain available so I'm bit worried it might struggle to draw LOS much to anything...Albeit there's shorter terrain as well.
Next time I go there(june) I'll measure up terrain pieces to see how much of issue LOS is going to be.
dapperbandit wrote: Aren't Scytheguard on paper still our best knight killers?
Nope you might as well be taking warriors to kill a knight. Wraiths are our best on paper, then scarabs, then DDA.
Edited to show points per wound taking into account amount of multiple damage and no 5++ in HtH
Assuming
Toughness 8
3+ 4++ vs shooting (new Rotate Ion Shield limit)
3+ vs Hand to Hand
Wounds per point (higher is better)
0.01587301587 Scytheguard
0.01709401709 Scarabs
0.01851851852 Wraiths
0.01234567901 Tesla
0.01701388889 Doomsday Cannon
0.0101010101 Warrior (rapid fire)
Interestingly, using this math to do 25 wounds to a knight in one shot, it would take the following point values of models
1575 Scytheguard
1462.5 Scarabs
1350 Wraiths
2025 Tesla
1469.387755 Doomsday Cannon
2475 Warrior (rapid fire)
And did a little math using just Lychguard with warscythes Vs a basic Knight in Melee, no rerolls or other trickery in play: So, on average, after saves:
ScytheGuard: 0.89 unsaved wounds per Lychguard, 27 Lychguard to do 24 wounds, 756 points worth of Lychguard to kill a knight. Scarabs: 0.22 unsaved wounds per Scarab 110 Scarabs to do 24 wounds. 1430 points worth of Scarabs to kill a knight. Wraiths: 0.89 unsaved wounds per Wraith 27 Wraiths to do 24 wounds. 1296 points worth of Wraiths to kill a knight
Pylon at range vs Knight, they will use Stratagem so T8 4++ save: 15.56 unsaved wounds per Pylon, 2 pylon to kill a Knight, 950 points worth of Pylon to kill a knight
Edited to reflect no invul in HtH. Which puts them better than troops, but worse than wraiths, scarabs, and DDA.
Still, every other option has better delivery systems (shooting 1st turn, or a 10"-12" move), which to my mind makes them the worst of all choices.
How about a damage per modell or Max slzed unit? There's a tactical constraint as well, you can't always poor points at a problem.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And what about the Pylon? Seems to do near 16 dmg per volley
Gauss Pylon is 0.02046783626 damage per point, if on its undamaged bracket. That puts it about 10% better than wraiths, but with first turn shooting capability
It'll do on average 9.72222 damage per volley. But as with any D6 shot weapon, you could roll 1 shot, and they could roll a 4+ to save doing none, or you could roll 6 shots doing a maximum of 54 damage if they make none of their saves.
Damage per model, those are easy to calculate either by hand or online sites (mathhammer), or simply multiple the damage per point by the cost of the model.
Well pylon benefits a lot from cp reroll making odds of 1 shot 1/36. There's not going to be better use for it than that for sure.
Vs multiple knights if you have pylon and dda start with dda and if rotate comes depending on result shoot elsewhere. He has to decide either letting dda shoot unopposed or pylon getting shot vs 5++ knight with ris possibly not doing anything.
Edited to reflect no invul in HtH. Which puts them better than troops, but worse than wraiths, scarabs, and DDA.
Still, every other option has better delivery systems (shooting 1st turn, or a 10"-12" move), which to my mind makes them the worst of all choices.
How about a damage per modell or Max slzed unit? There's a tactical constraint as well, you can't always poor points at a problem.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And what about the Pylon? Seems to do near 16 dmg per volley
Gauss Pylon is 0.02046783626 damage per point, if on its undamaged bracket. That puts it about 10% better than wraiths, but with first turn shooting capability
It'll do on average 9.72222 damage per volley. But as with any D6 shot weapon, you could roll 1 shot, and they could roll a 4+ to save doing none, or you could roll 6 shots doing a maximum of 54 damage if they make none of their saves.
Damage per model, those are easy to calculate either by hand or online sites (mathhammer), or simply multiple the damage per point by the cost of the model.
Did you take into account Macro vs Titanic?
Also don't forget it's effectively BS3+ vs a knight due to the non-Fly limitation
Yeah seems low. I get 15.55 wounds vs 4++ with 3.5 shots. HOWEVER if we always reroll 1 and 2 we get actually average shot amount of 4.16 which adds up to 18.48 wounds per average.
(rerolling 3 increases average damage slightly but adds swings too much for my taste. Average shot count rises to 4.25 with average damage of 18.88. However rolling that 1 or 2 would suck...)
edit: Obelisk+3 dda averages dead knight at 4++. Though obelisk can one shot one at times. Just needs 2 hits through. And with dda's if you can lure RIS and shoot at other knight obelisk averages 24 wounds...Albeit that is obviously going to be swingy on/off so not telling whole truth. You are actually wasting some damage so average output isn't going to be as nice).
Made me think what kind of list I could make with those. overlord, cryptek, 3x5 immortals, 3xscarab, 9 tesla tomb blades, 3 dda, 6 wraiths, obelisk. Kinda low on troops...
dapperbandit wrote: Aren't Scytheguard on paper still our best knight killers?
Nope you might as well be taking warriors to kill a knight. Wraiths are our best on paper, then scarabs, then DDA.
Edited to show points per wound taking into account amount of multiple damage and no 5++ in HtH
Assuming Toughness 8 3+ 4++ vs shooting (new Rotate Ion Shield limit) 3+ vs Hand to Hand
Wounds per point (higher is better) 0.01587301587 Scytheguard 0.01709401709 Scarabs 0.01851851852 Wraiths 0.01234567901 Tesla 0.01701388889 Doomsday Cannon 0.0101010101 Warrior (rapid fire)
Interestingly, using this math to do 25 wounds to a knight in one shot, it would take the following point values of models 1575 Scytheguard 1462.5 Scarabs 1350 Wraiths 2025 Tesla 1469.387755 Doomsday Cannon 2475 Warrior (rapid fire)
Scytheguard can spend 1 CP to increase their damage output by 50% against Knights.
Scytheguard (no buffs): 24*0,5*3*1,5*0,5*28=756 pts Scytheguard (Novokh, Anrakyr, +1 S Stratagem): 24*0,5*2*1,125*0,333*28=252 pts (in other words 10 Novokh Lychguard within 6" of Anrakyr with the +1 S Strat will kill a Knight in one turn) Scarabs: 24*3*3*1,5*0,25*13=1053 pts Wraiths: 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,5*0,333*48=1295 pts Wraiths (Novokh, Crimson Haze): 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,125*0,273*48=796 pts Tesla Immortals (+0): 24*3*3*0,5*15=1620 pts Tesla Immortals (+1): 24*3*3*0,333*15=1079 pts Tesla Immortals (+2, Triarch Stalker): 24*3*3*0,2334*15=756 pts DDA (full power cannon vs. 5++): 24/3,5*1,5*1,5*1,5/3,5*160=1057 pts DDA (Rapid Fire and no moving vs. 5++): = 810 pts Destroyer (vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*3*36/28*0,333*50=1156 pts Destroyer (Protocols vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*9/5*36/32*0,333*50=606 pts Warrior (RF): 24*2*6*1,5*0,5*11=2376 pts
So yeah.. Warriors are the worst because they wound on 6s. DDAs kind of suck but they have range going for them, Wraiths are terrible rather than the best, while Scytheguard are the best in strict opposite to you claiming they are the worst. Tesla Immortals are pretty good when paired with MWBD, Methodical Destruction and a Triarch Stalker. Destroyers with Protocols will do okay damage to a Knight, but you'll always see a rotation when that happens, which means a 33% increase in the number of pts worth of shooting you need to kill the Knight. For the Lychguard you'd see a 100% increase in number of pts needed if your opponent has a 4++ in melee, 33% in the case of Wraiths.
dapperbandit wrote: Aren't Scytheguard on paper still our best knight killers?
Nope you might as well be taking warriors to kill a knight. Wraiths are our best on paper, then scarabs, then DDA.
Edited to show points per wound taking into account amount of multiple damage and no 5++ in HtH
Assuming
Toughness 8
3+ 4++ vs shooting (new Rotate Ion Shield limit)
3+ vs Hand to Hand
Wounds per point (higher is better)
0.01587301587 Scytheguard
0.01709401709 Scarabs
0.01851851852 Wraiths
0.01234567901 Tesla
0.01701388889 Doomsday Cannon
0.0101010101 Warrior (rapid fire)
Interestingly, using this math to do 25 wounds to a knight in one shot, it would take the following point values of models
1575 Scytheguard
1462.5 Scarabs
1350 Wraiths
2025 Tesla
1469.387755 Doomsday Cannon
2475 Warrior (rapid fire)
Scytheguard can spend 1 CP to increase their damage output by 50% against Knights.
Scytheguard (no buffs): 24*0,5*3*1,5*0,5*28=756 pts
Scytheguard (Novokh, Anrakyr, +1 S Stratagem): 24*0,5*2*1,125*0,333*28=252 pts (in other words 10 Novokh Lychguard within 6" of Anrakyr with the +1 S Strat will kill a Knight in one turn)
Scarabs: 24*3*3*1,5*0,25*13=1053 pts
Wraiths: 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,5*0,333*48=1295 pts
Wraiths (Novokh, Crimson Haze): 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,125*0,273*48=796 pts
Tesla Immortals (+0): 24*3*3*0,5*15=1620 pts
Tesla Immortals (+1): 24*3*3*0,333*15=1079 pts
Tesla Immortals (+2, Triarch Stalker): 24*3*3*0,2334*15=756 pts
DDA (full power cannon vs. 5++): 24/3,5*1,5*1,5*1,5/3,5*160=1057 pts
DDA (Rapid Fire and no moving vs. 5++): = 810 pts
Destroyer (vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*3*36/28*0,333*50=1156 pts
Destroyer (Protocols vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*9/5*36/32*0,333*50=606 pts
Warrior (RF): 24*2*6*1,5*0,5*11=2376 pts
So yeah.. Warriors are the worst because they wound on 6s. DDAs kind of suck but they have range going for them, Wraiths are terrible rather than the best, while Scytheguard are the best in strict opposite to you claiming they are the worst. Tesla Immortals are pretty good when paired with MWBD, Methodical Destruction and a Triarch Stalker. Destroyers with Protocols will do okay damage to a Knight, but you'll always see a rotation when that happens, which means a 33% increase in the number of pts worth of shooting you need to kill the Knight. For the Lychguard you'd see a 100% increase in number of pts needed if your opponent has a 4++ in melee, 33% in the case of Wraiths.
I agree with the usage og +1S, but not Anrakyr, that is a quite unrealistic buff. (since only Deceiver can transport him). Sure through careful positioning you could hope to lure the knight into a trap wherein Anrakyr can advance to be in range of charging Lychguard, but thats a tall order to factor into the equation.
Also if you give the LG Novokh, you could give the warriors Nihilakh or Mephrit for a more fair comparison
Scytheguard (no buffs): 24*0,5*3*1,5*0,5*28=756 pts
Scytheguard (Novokh, Anrakyr, +1 S Stratagem): 24*0,5*2*1,125*0,333*28=252 pts (in other words 10 Novokh Lychguard within 6" of Anrakyr with the +1 S Strat will kill a Knight in one turn)
Scarabs: 24*3*3*1,5*0,25*13=1053 pts
Wraiths: 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,5*0,333*48=1295 pts
Wraiths (Novokh, Crimson Haze): 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,125*0,273*48=796 pts
Tesla Immortals (+0): 24*3*3*0,5*15=1620 pts
Tesla Immortals (+1): 24*3*3*0,333*15=1079 pts
Tesla Immortals (+2, Triarch Stalker): 24*3*3*0,2334*15=756 pts
DDA (full power cannon vs. 5++): 24/3,5*1,5*1,5*1,5/3,5*160=1057 pts
DDA (Rapid Fire and no moving vs. 5++): = 810 pts
Destroyer (vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*3*36/28*0,333*50=1156 pts
Destroyer (Protocols vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*9/5*36/32*0,333*50=606 pts
Warrior (RF): 24*2*6*1,5*0,5*11=2376 pts
I agree with the usage og +1S, but not Anrakyr, that is a quite unrealistic buff. (since only Deceiver can transport him). Sure through careful positioning you could hope to lure the knight into a trap wherein Anrakyr can advance to be in range of charging Lychguard, but thats a tall order to factor into the equation.
Also if you give the LG Novokh, you could give the warriors Nihilakh or Mephrit for a more fair comparison
If we are talking in terms of pure killiness Lychguard are better than Warriors no matter how you spin it, I've played a ton of games with my Warrior heavy list against Knights. Putting Mephrit on them doesn't help that much, especially not against what was often a 3++ Knight and Nihilakh means no movement which probably means no RF.
Most likely your opponent will soften up your Lychguard enough that they lose the power to one-shot the Knight if you take a single unit of 10. The most reliable way I've found for getting them into combat is taking 30 and marching them up the board with Anrakyr, a single unit of 10 is basically useless, too easy to remove or ignore. I don't even think my 30 LG list is a Knight counter, they just happen to be able to obliterate Knights in melee in a turn, but they are super slow and a good Knight player would probably outplay me with the M12 on their Knights. I do think Anrakyr is fairly easy to keep in range if you are willing to sacrifice a 3-6 attacks to chain back to him. Using the Veil to get into a Knight is a waste of pts, even if you make it in you need to spend 4 CP to kill the Knight, so you are spending 5 CP because you'll probably need to re-roll a charge dice, you need an HQ and a Relic and you waste 350 pts if you fail the charge.
I don't like counter-charging units except for characters, a single melee unit is going to be useless against shooting lists with a minimum of screening and might not even pose a bigger threat to melee armies than the equivalent pts spent on more shooting, so I'm definitely not advocating for including LG in your lists to counter Knights. Like with the fella who took 6 Wraiths in his Sautekh list, why not lean more heavily into shooting? Take 6 Destroyers instead, those actually benefit from your Stratagems and your Dynasty. Scarabs are an exception because I wouldn't really call them a melee unit, they are sort of an all-purpose unit and are alright in any Dynasty while being absolutely amazing in Nephrekh and Novokh.
Anrakyr also happens to be able to hack into a Knights weapons, which is amazing for his cost, with a re-roll you'll be firing the RF Battle Cannon 75% of the time, not that I've remembered that ability in even half my games with him.
So yeah.. Warriors are the worst because they wound on 6s. DDAs kind of suck but they have range going for them, Wraiths are terrible rather than the best, while Scytheguard are the best in strict opposite to you claiming they are the worst. Tesla Immortals are pretty good when paired with MWBD, Methodical Destruction and a Triarch Stalker. Destroyers with Protocols will do okay damage to a Knight, but you'll always see a rotation when that happens, which means a 33% increase in the number of pts worth of shooting you need to kill the Knight. For the Lychguard you'd see a 100% increase in number of pts needed if your opponent has a 4++ in melee, 33% in the case of Wraiths.
Again though that assumes you somehow manage to scythe through couple layers of infantry without getting shot to pieces. How can unit that will not lay their fingers on knight be best? They aren't getting into close combat. Necrons lack delivery methods to bring them. You planning to DS monolith, have it survive and assault on T3 or something?
Warriors are way better because while their damage output sucks compared to lychguard they, unlike lychguard, actually have ways to actually DO them.
When lychguard can do the damage from at least 12" away then you have point. As is it's not going to work.
I don't know why Warriors and Lychguard are being compared for Knight killing. Warriors are terrible vs a Knight and should always be shooting at something else, unless you just need to get 1 or 2 wounds through. Lychguard are actually a legitimate threat to a Knight, although getting them to it can be tricky.
An Overlord with the Veil, and the reroll charges warlord trait, is the most cost-effective delivery method for them. With MWBD, reroll charges, and the option to reroll 1 charge dice with a CP, the Lychguard have ~70% chance to make a charge out of deepstrike. With MWBD and +1S they do an average of 17 wounds to a knight.
You of course need to clear the screens with Tesla first, which can be the hard part. I've never had much difficulty hiding this unit till it's time to Veil into action.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I don't know why Warriors and Lychguard are being compared for Knight killing. Warriors are terrible vs a Knight and should always be shooting at something else, unless you just need to get 1 or 2 wounds through. Lychguard are actually a legitimate threat to a Knight, although getting them to it can be tricky.
An Overlord with the Veil, and the reroll charges warlord trait, is the most cost-effective delivery method for them. With MWBD, reroll charges, and the option to reroll 1 charge dice with a CP, the Lychguard have ~70% chance to make a charge out of deepstrike. With MWBD and +1S they do an average of 17 wounds to a knight.
You of course need to clear the screens with Tesla first, which can be the hard part. I've never had much difficulty hiding this unit till it's time to Veil into action.
Both are bad but for different reasons. Warriors struggle to wound but then again lychguard have flat out damage output 0 unless knight player is idiot or you spend ridiculous amount of resources(maybe deceiver+like 3 monoliths to ensure at least one survives until your turn and even then requires you to have firepower to clear enough of the 60+ troopers to punch hole...).
78% actually...Except again you will have to be sitting duck somewhere for couple turns to ensure hole to charge from. You don't just DS+charge unless knight player WANTS you to do so...
Lychguard is good if opponent is noob rookie who doesn't know to bring chaff along.
Yeah I don't at all see warriors as viable against knights.. They require more support from the list (Immortal pride, perhaps a GA).
10 immortals are on par or always better (MWBD) than 20 warriors, and much cheaper. And the only require an overlord with a MWBD to hand out, which you most likely will have. They can also stand safely with 10 models at 24" while the warriors have to fit 20 models inside a 12" bubble around the knight to even have a meaningful impact damage wise.
Both are bad but for different reasons. Warriors struggle to wound but then again lychguard have flat out damage output 0 unless knight player is idiot or you spend ridiculous amount of resources(maybe deceiver+like 3 monoliths to ensure at least one survives until your turn and even then requires you to have firepower to clear enough of the 60+ troopers to punch hole...).
78% actually...Except again you will have to be sitting duck somewhere for couple turns to ensure hole to charge from. You don't just DS+charge unless knight player WANTS you to do so...
Lychguard is good if opponent is noob rookie who doesn't know to bring chaff along.
I think you're overstating the difficulty a bit here. Assaulting out of deepstrike is not something that only works against idiots, it's a common tactic in 8th edition, which is why screening chaff is common, which is why chaff clearing units are common.
That's not to say that it's easy, but Lychguard with 78% chance to charge + Tesla for chaff clearing makes Necrons fairly good at it.
1 h2h threat and small one at that isn't that bad. Also necron's don't actually have point efficient chaff clearers...Immortals are rather bad for points vs IG troopers for example. sure if knight player has only 1 squad it works...But they have like 6 as MINIMUM. And can ensure immortals won't have range on T1 anyway if they don't want(29" threat range is small) all the while bombarding lychguard waiting for their time.
Agreed, I know Lychguard are expensive for what they do but talking about needing 3 monoliths etc is a bit ridiculous.
It's worth pointing out that I did say they were our best knight killers *on paper*
Wraiths don't get the same amount of attacks as a full strength unit of lychguard and will find it harder to wound, but are far more likely to survive the overwatch and fight back, and situationally (or with a second unit) can wrap and trap a knight, something that will be much easier now that they can move through models on the charge again thanks to the FAQ.
I understand there's debatable relevance to asking these things in a vacuum but this is not impossible feats we're talking about here; I've literally seen it happen. There is a whole shooting phase that can deal with screens and/or deal additional damage to the damage which compliments the fight phase.
tneva82 wrote: necron's don't actually have point efficient chaff clearers...Immortals are rather bad for points vs IG troopers for example.
Really? IIRC 10 MWBD Tesla Immortals kill about 13 Guardsmen. Splitting that between 2 min size guard squads, and factoring in moral tests, means you're looking at closer to 20 dead Guardsmen.
I haven't done the maths to compare that to other options, but Tesla Immortals have always felt like premier chaff clearers when I've used them.
For h2h unit to be worth it it needs reliable delivery method. One monolith is easy to take down so slap down one and it gets blown and then lychguard gunned down. Even 2 can get risky with all the knight killing firepower out there. But ok 2 monoliths. If you rely on one though...well opponent simply shoots down it and then guns down the lychguard that comes out. You need to be able to be inside to not be gunned.
On paper should also consider can you actually get into combat. It's irrelevant if you have 1 attack that automatically hits, automatically wounds, ignores all saves and has flat damage 60 if it's on platform that's immobile.
tneva82 wrote: necron's don't actually have point efficient chaff clearers...Immortals are rather bad for points vs IG troopers for example.
Really? IIRC 10 MWBD Tesla Immortals kill about 13 Guardsmen. Splitting that between 2 min size guard squads, and factoring in moral tests, means you're looking at closer to 20 dead Guardsmen.
I haven't done the maths to compare that to other options, but Tesla Immortals have always felt like premier chaff clearers when I've used them.
Ah yes 13 guardsmen cost as much as 10 immortals...oh wait they don't.
Math was actually shown here couple pages ago I think. Or was it on early pages that I read. either way for points it sucks.
Stompa shoots nice amount of guardsmen as well. Do you claim it's efficient chaff clearer?
Busy messing around with lists trying to make something scary. is this a dumb list?
2 x Cryptek with Cloak
2 x 5 Tesla Immortals
1 x 10 warriors
1 x Ghost Ark
3 x Doom Scythe (sautekh)
3 x DDA
1 x Pylon.
= 1990 pts
Everything is Nihilakh except the flyers. The idea is to castle up on the pylon, get the DDAs that sweet 5++ (maybe even get the flyers in there turn 1.
I feel like this list ruins big stuff, but would just get overrun by nids/orks.
tneva82 wrote: For h2h unit to be worth it it needs reliable delivery method. One monolith is easy to take down so slap down one and it gets blown and then lychguard gunned down. Even 2 can get risky with all the knight killing firepower out there. But ok 2 monoliths. If you rely on one though...well opponent simply shoots down it and then guns down the lychguard that comes out. You need to be able to be inside to not be gunned.
On paper should also consider can you actually get into combat. It's irrelevant if you have 1 attack that automatically hits, automatically wounds, ignores all saves and has flat damage 60 if it's on platform that's immobile.
tneva82 wrote: necron's don't actually have point efficient chaff clearers...Immortals are rather bad for points vs IG troopers for example.
Really? IIRC 10 MWBD Tesla Immortals kill about 13 Guardsmen. Splitting that between 2 min size guard squads, and factoring in moral tests, means you're looking at closer to 20 dead Guardsmen.
I haven't done the maths to compare that to other options, but Tesla Immortals have always felt like premier chaff clearers when I've used them.
Ah yes 13 guardsmen cost as much as 10 immortals...oh wait they don't.
Math was actually shown here couple pages ago I think. Or was it on early pages that I read. either way for points it sucks.
Stompa shoots nice amount of guardsmen as well. Do you claim it's efficient chaff clearer?
A monolith isn't that hard to "handle" either. Oh there's choppy guys coming out of that thing? Lemme just walk over to this side of the board. Or surround it. Or generally do any of a number of simple tricks to neutralize the threat.
But are there better schaff clearers in other armies than Tesla immortals? Give them the MWBD, that's a given. If you fit in a lord as well it goes from 13 to 16. You're now clearing 30+ models between two Tesla Immortal units.. and you could throw inn tomb blades if you have them for a coupld of finishing blows.. are there usually better schaff clearers out there for other armies I mean?
Also don't forget the survivability.. Hugging cover means those lasguns coming back outside of RF range are barely making a dent.
Ah yes 13 guardsmen cost as much as 10 immortals...oh wait they don't.
Math was actually shown here couple pages ago I think. Or was it on early pages that I read. either way for points it sucks.
Stompa shoots nice amount of guardsmen as well. Do you claim it's efficient chaff clearer?
In order to qualify as an efficient chaff clearer, you need to be better than other units at clearing chaff- not kill more than your points worth of chaff in one turn.
What's a more efficient chaff clearer than Tesla Immortals? I'm sure there are some out there, but I doubt there are many, hence Tesla Immortals are a premier chaff clearing unit.
Can you please explain your notation here? I can't see how the number 24 is associated with a wraith in any way, nor why you would multiply it by 0.
Also, when you are making comparisons best not to include things like MWBD or Crimson haze as that increases the cost of the unit. Almost every unit can be boosted by CP or auras, so best to ignore that. Otherwise you've got to add in spending 3CP to allow Wraiths to fight twice for example.
Ah yes 13 guardsmen cost as much as 10 immortals...oh wait they don't.
Math was actually shown here couple pages ago I think. Or was it on early pages that I read. either way for points it sucks.
Stompa shoots nice amount of guardsmen as well. Do you claim it's efficient chaff clearer?
In order to qualify as an efficient chaff clearer, you need to be better than other units at clearing chaff- not kill more than your points worth of chaff in one turn.
What's a more efficient chaff clearer than Tesla Immortals? I'm sure there are some out there, but I doubt there are many, hence Tesla Immortals are a premier chaff clearing unit.
Agreed.
That mindset just means you are destined for disappointment. The game is roughly mathed so that with average rolls it takes about x2 a unit's points to kill a unit. (300 point unit takes roughly 600 points to kill)
Tesla immortals are very good at killing chaff. Certainly the best unit in our codex for them.
dapperbandit wrote: Aren't Scytheguard on paper still our best knight killers?
Nope you might as well be taking warriors to kill a knight. Wraiths are our best on paper, then scarabs, then DDA.
Edited to show points per wound taking into account amount of multiple damage and no 5++ in HtH
Assuming
Toughness 8
3+ 4++ vs shooting (new Rotate Ion Shield limit)
3+ vs Hand to Hand
Wounds per point (higher is better)
0.01587301587 Scytheguard
0.01709401709 Scarabs
0.01851851852 Wraiths
0.01234567901 Tesla
0.01701388889 Doomsday Cannon
0.0101010101 Warrior (rapid fire)
Interestingly, using this math to do 25 wounds to a knight in one shot, it would take the following point values of models
1575 Scytheguard
1462.5 Scarabs
1350 Wraiths
2025 Tesla
1469.387755 Doomsday Cannon
2475 Warrior (rapid fire)
Scytheguard can spend 1 CP to increase their damage output by 50% against Knights.
Scytheguard (no buffs): 24*0,5*3*1,5*0,5*28=756 pts
Scytheguard (Novokh, Anrakyr, +1 S Stratagem): 24*0,5*2*1,125*0,333*28=252 pts (in other words 10 Novokh Lychguard within 6" of Anrakyr with the +1 S Strat will kill a Knight in one turn)
Scarabs: 24*3*3*1,5*0,25*13=1053 pts
Wraiths: 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,5*0,333*48=1295 pts
Wraiths (Novokh, Crimson Haze): 24*0,5*3*1,5*1,125*0,273*48=796 pts
Tesla Immortals (+0): 24*3*3*0,5*15=1620 pts
Tesla Immortals (+1): 24*3*3*0,333*15=1079 pts
Tesla Immortals (+2, Triarch Stalker): 24*3*3*0,2334*15=756 pts
DDA (full power cannon vs. 5++): 24/3,5*1,5*1,5*1,5/3,5*160=1057 pts
DDA (Rapid Fire and no moving vs. 5++): = 810 pts
Destroyer (vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*3*36/28*0,333*50=1156 pts
Destroyer (Protocols vs 5++): 24*0,5*1,5*9/5*36/32*0,333*50=606 pts
Warrior (RF): 24*2*6*1,5*0,5*11=2376 pts
So yeah.. Warriors are the worst because they wound on 6s. DDAs kind of suck but they have range going for them, Wraiths are terrible rather than the best, while Scytheguard are the best in strict opposite to you claiming they are the worst. Tesla Immortals are pretty good when paired with MWBD, Methodical Destruction and a Triarch Stalker. Destroyers with Protocols will do okay damage to a Knight, but you'll always see a rotation when that happens, which means a 33% increase in the number of pts worth of shooting you need to kill the Knight. For the Lychguard you'd see a 100% increase in number of pts needed if your opponent has a 4++ in melee, 33% in the case of Wraiths.
You did Novokh, Crimson Haze Wraiths, but not Scarab?
My Novokh Haze Scarabs always seem to outperform my Wraiths.
It's not that hard to get 2 full units in cc in range of the Haze aura.
Agreed.
That mindset just means you are destined for disappointment. The game is roughly mathed so that with average rolls it takes about x2 a unit's points to kill a unit. (300 point unit takes roughly 600 points to kill)
Tesla immortals are very good at killing chaff. Certainly the best unit in our codex for them.
Agreed. This is one of (many) reasons why Knights were so insane. Heavy weapons balance out high armor so that the damage math balances out, but the 3+ safe was too much when combined with the low point cost.
Plus the brokenly cheap battalions and such, but that's a different issue.
That mindset just means you are destined for disappointment. The game is roughly mathed so that with average rolls it takes about x2 a unit's points to kill a unit. (300 point unit takes roughly 600 points to kill)
Tesla immortals are very good at killing chaff. Certainly the best unit in our codex for them.
If so necrons are screwed vs IG as IG troopers will flat out outshoot immortals as math shows(search it up. It's in this thread).
Sure 10 immortals will win vs 10 troopers. But 10 ig troopers are "bit" cheaper than 10 immortals. Immortals won't win straight firefight vs the IG trooper squads short of good dice rolling.
Just because immortals might be best unit in our codex doesn't make them good in general. Just means necrons lack good GEQ killers. Vs immortals guard troopers won't even qualify as chaff as they are flat out killers.
That mindset just means you are destined for disappointment. The game is roughly mathed so that with average rolls it takes about x2 a unit's points to kill a unit. (300 point unit takes roughly 600 points to kill)
Tesla immortals are very good at killing chaff. Certainly the best unit in our codex for them.
If so necrons are screwed vs IG as IG troopers will flat out outshoot immortals as math shows(search it up. It's in this thread).
Sure 10 immortals will win vs 10 troopers. But 10 ig troopers are "bit" cheaper than 10 immortals. Immortals won't win straight firefight vs the IG trooper squads short of good dice rolling.
Just because immortals might be best unit in our codex doesn't make them good in general. Just means necrons lack good GEQ killers. Vs immortals guard troopers won't even qualify as chaff as they are flat out killers.
By that logic everyone is screwed, and there is no point in playing the game, as all one has to do to win is spam 2 point grots or 4 point guard with flashlights, and flood the board. They are the most point efficient after all.
But nobody runs that many GEQ. I've never seen it. You won't see it in a tournament either since it takes too long to play with/move that many models.
Are these the magic IG squads that can always be in rapid-fire range (even against Tesla Immortals which have no reason to close beyond 24") in spite of their main function being bubble-wrapping other units, and always in range of Company Commanders?
That mindset just means you are destined for disappointment. The game is roughly mathed so that with average rolls it takes about x2 a unit's points to kill a unit. (300 point unit takes roughly 600 points to kill)
Tesla immortals are very good at killing chaff. Certainly the best unit in our codex for them.
If so necrons are screwed vs IG as IG troopers will flat out outshoot immortals as math shows(search it up. It's in this thread).
Sure 10 immortals will win vs 10 troopers. But 10 ig troopers are "bit" cheaper than 10 immortals. Immortals won't win straight firefight vs the IG trooper squads short of good dice rolling.
Just because immortals might be best unit in our codex doesn't make them good in general. Just means necrons lack good GEQ killers. Vs immortals guard troopers won't even qualify as chaff as they are flat out killers.
600 pts of Guardsmen kill 125 pts of Immortals without buffs or RF, 600 pts of Immortals kill 142 pts of Guardsmen. That's just the flat damage, Leadership is harder on Guardsmen and Immortals get Reanimation Protocols. Guardsmen have superior buffs and the possibility of RF, Immortals benefit to a greater degree from cover. Immortals are one of the strongest units in the game, still a ways off from being as versatile as Guardsmen.
Can you please explain your notation here? I can't see how the number 24 is associated with a wraith in any way, nor why you would multiply it by 0.
Also, when you are making comparisons best not to include things like MWBD or Crimson haze as that increases the cost of the unit. Almost every unit can be boosted by CP or auras, so best to ignore that. Otherwise you've got to add in spending 3CP to allow Wraiths to fight twice for example.
We can argue six ways to sunday about what math to apply, the math I did wasn't so much for doing accurate comparisons, because there are infinite possible scenarios and which to apply is subjective. The math I was doing in the post was about finding the pts value of a given unit needed to destroy a Knight with no Relics or Stratagems on it. Knights have 24 wounds, then we figure out how many saves our opponent needs to fail to take 24 damage, Wraiths have a damage of 2 so we need half the number of unsaved wounds to get that much damage (*0,5), then we figure out how many wounds we need to cause to get our opponent to take enough saves, we are wounding on 5s which is 2/6 (*3) our opponent saves on 5s so our wounds go through 4/6 (*1,5), hitting 8/9 times with Novokh (*1,125), our number of attacks lowers the number of models needed to kill the Knight, each Wraith makes 3 attacks which we multiply by 1,25 because of Crimson Haze, in subsequent rounds we would multiply it by 1,16 but because we are re-rolling 1s and 2s before Crimson Haze triggers we multiply by 1,25. The math might be off, I did it in a weird way and didn't input all the calculations, been a while since I went to school.
Is anyone played much with dual battalion 60 tesla Immortal lists?
I would of thought it would be the bedrock of many lists given how good immortals are abundance of CP it gives. I guess blowing 900pts straight on troops does leave you restricted.
Thinking of opening my wallet and going down this path.
Asymmetric wrote: Is anyone played much with dual battalion 60 tesla Immortal lists?
I would of thought it would be the bedrock of many lists given how good immortals are abundance of CP it gives. I guess blowing 900pts straight on troops does leave you restricted.
Thinking of opening my wallet and going down this path.
Assuming you go with Overlords, you can get 5 MWBD (1 extra for Phaeron's will) on those 6 troops, which is kinda cool. But, you only end up with 818 points left over to spend those 17 CP on. Assuming you manage to spend 6 on Phaeron's Will, an extra one for an extra relic, that gives you 12 to spend on 2 or 3 fast/elite/heavy units over the course of the game since Immortals are not generally CP hungry, and Methodical Destruction may be a bit overkill most of the time. Immotekh is probably a better tradeoff than another full battalion.
Asymmetric wrote: Is anyone played much with dual battalion 60 tesla Immortal lists?
I would of thought it would be the bedrock of many lists given how good immortals are abundance of CP it gives. I guess blowing 900pts straight on troops does leave you restricted.
Thinking of opening my wallet and going down this path.
Assuming you go with Overlords, you can get 5 MWBD (1 extra for Phaeron's will) on those 6 troops, which is kinda cool. But, you only end up with 818 points left over to spend those 17 CP on. Assuming you manage to spend 6 on Phaeron's Will, an extra one for an extra relic, that gives you 12 to spend on 2 or 3 fast/elite/heavy units over the course of the game since Immortals are not generally CP hungry, and Methodical Destruction may be a bit overkill most of the time. Immotekh is probably a better tradeoff than another full battalion.
Could go with a couple of min squads. Would save you a few points extra at least. RP has the reversed benefit that the enemy might overkill small units.
818 points and 12 CPs will give you two full units of Destroyers, and 218 points spare, and they'll love the CPs
If you arent bothered about much else, that might work, add an escort cloaktek just in case your opponant cant drop all 6 in one turn
Or, just run 1 of these such units + cryptek and then 2 DDAs
Gives a total of 4 OLords, 60 TeslaMorts, 6 Destroyers + Cloaktek, 2 DDAs, and you have 113 points leftover, so you can definately upgrade one of the Overlords to Imotekh, and still have roughly 50 points of breathing space
YMMV, but that's how I'd do it if I felt utterly obliged
IHateNids wrote: 818 points and 12 CPs will give you two full units of Destroyers, and 218 points spare, and they'll love the CPs
If you arent bothered about much else, that might work, add an escort cloaktek just in case your opponant cant drop all 6 in one turn
Or, just run 1 of these such units + cryptek and then 2 DDAs
Gives a total of 4 OLords, 60 TeslaMorts, 6 Destroyers + Cloaktek, 2 DDAs, and you have 113 points leftover, so you can definately upgrade one of the Overlords to Imotekh, and still have roughly 50 points of breathing space
YMMV, but that's how I'd do it if I felt utterly obliged
Sure, but the question is "is it a good list/idea" . I think the answer is no. This after having almost completed painting my 60th tesla immortal...
Yeah you'd need mix in a CCB (also good for extra MWBD range) or a named one.. could go Nihilakh and get the cheap Trazyn and reroll ones for your shooting Immortals
Asymmetric wrote: Is anyone played much with dual battalion 60 tesla Immortal lists?
I would of thought it would be the bedrock of many lists given how good immortals are abundance of CP it gives. I guess blowing 900pts straight on troops does leave you restricted.
Thinking of opening my wallet and going down this path.
I have more than 20 wins and less than 10 losses with my 58 Immortal Zahndrekh/Obyron/Imotekh list 90% of which were against mid-top tier lists. 3 of those losses were all in a row right after Obyron and Veil of Darkness got nerfed to remove My Will Be Done when used. It's extremely good, a non-Necron player borrowed the army and used it to similar effect. No tournament use though, so it's not worth the world, but if you just want a better chance in games with your buddies then it should do the job. You can go through my post history and find short battle reports for at least 10 of the games.
I got a 2v2 tourney coming up in a few months, ITC with 2x1000 point armies. My buddy is bringing Tau and I wanted to bring a massive distraction list for his gunline. And also because I've been wanting to try this list for ages:
Mephrit battalion:
Cryptek, chronometron, Veil of Darkness
Overlord/w staff of light
2x20 warriors
10x tesla immortals
Deceiver C'tan
The idea is simple; Deceive the 2x20 warriors forward along with the Cryptek and Immortals through the Veil ( I assume I get at least a 2 on the Grand Illusion roll, even if it costs a re-roll. Otherwise the plan fails no matter what). This creates a powerful alpha strike and a massive roadblock for the enemy to chew through, leaving the Tau save to do their thing.
That of course brings me to the biggest hiccup the Deceiver always has; you HAVE to go first with him.
However, there might someone who can help us with going first, enter Toholk the Blind!
Toholk let's us re-roll Seize the Initiative.This can of course be game-changing in a list like this, backed up by large amount of Tau firepower.
So, here's the list with Toholk:
Maynarkh Battalion:
Toholk
Overlord /w Warscythe, Veil of Darkness
1x18 and 1x19 warriors
10x tesla immortals
Deceiver C'tan
So at the cost of three Warriors, two Staffs of Light that could add up to the total dmg output and the Mephrit stratagem, I have a 16,7% increased chance of going first.
I got a 2v2 tourney coming up in a few months, ITC with 2x1000 point armies. My buddy is bringing Tau and I wanted to bring a massive distraction list for his gunline. And also because I've been wanting to try this list for ages:
Mephrit battalion:
Cryptek, chronometron, Veil of Darkness
Overlord/w staff of light
2x20 warriors
10x tesla immortals
Deceiver C'tan
The idea is simple; Deceive the 2x20 warriors forward along with the Cryptek and Immortals through the Veil ( I assume I get at least a 2 on the Grand Illusion roll, even if it costs a re-roll. Otherwise the plan fails no matter what). This creates a powerful alpha strike and a massive roadblock for the enemy to chew through, leaving the Tau save to do their thing.
That of course brings me to the biggest hiccup the Deceiver always has; you HAVE to go first with him.
However, there might someone who can help us with going first, enter Toholk the Blind!
Toholk let's us re-roll Seize the Initiative.This can of course be game-changing in a list like this, backed up by large amount of Tau firepower.
So, here's the list with Toholk:
Maynarkh Battalion:
Toholk
Overlord /w Warscythe, Veil of Darkness
1x18 and 1x19 warriors
10x tesla immortals
Deceiver C'tan
So at the cost of three Warriors, two Staffs of Light that could add up to the total dmg output and the Mephrit stratagem, I have a 16,7% increased chance of going first.
What do you guys think?
Toholk looks OK (even if his melee weapon's special rule can never trigger). You're still going 2nd 40 (ish) % of the time though, You're slightly more likely to go first, but at the cost of being a lot less damaging if you do. I'd stick with Mephrit.
So at the cost of three Warriors, two Staffs of Light that could add up to the total dmg output and the Mephrit stratagem, I have a 16,7% increased chance of going first.
What do you guys think?
Not as much. 30.5% chance of seize. And you still go second quite often. Though you could put warriors behind los block or something
Doctoralex wrote: So at the cost of three Warriors, two Staffs of Light that could add up to the total dmg output and the Mephrit stratagem, I have a 16,7% increased chance of going first.
Toholk looks OK (even if his melee weapon's special rule can never trigger). You're still going 2nd 40 (ish) % of the time though, You're slightly more likely to go first, but at the cost of being a lot less damaging if you do. I'd stick with Mephrit.
You still get to pick a Dynasty trait, you just don't get their Stratagem, Relic and WL trait all of those for Mephrit are kind of meh anyway, so not a big loss.
Without Toholk you have a 6/36 chance of seizing, with him 11/36, 50% chance vs 57% of going first assuming your opponent wants first turn. Worth the pts? Maybe barely, but in ITC you can go inside a magic box(TM) if you go second, in non-ITC you can probably find a place to at least put your Warriors in cover, so you don't necessarily auto-lose from going second. I played with my 60 Warrior Deceiver list against BA/Knights going second and still managed to win the other day.
Doctoralex wrote: So at the cost of three Warriors, two Staffs of Light that could add up to the total dmg output and the Mephrit stratagem, I have a 16,7% increased chance of going first.
Toholk looks OK (even if his melee weapon's special rule can never trigger). You're still going 2nd 40 (ish) % of the time though, You're slightly more likely to go first, but at the cost of being a lot less damaging if you do. I'd stick with Mephrit.
You still get to pick a Dynasty trait, you just don't get their Stratagem, Relic and WL trait all of those for Mephrit are kind of meh anyway, so not a big loss.
Without Toholk you have a 6/36 chance of seizing, with him 11/36, 50% chance vs 57% of going first assuming your opponent wants first turn. Worth the pts? Maybe barely, but in ITC you can go inside a magic box(TM) if you go second, in non-ITC you can probably find a place to at least put your Warriors in cover, so you don't necessarily auto-lose from going second. I played with my 60 Warrior Deceiver list against BA/Knights going second and still managed to win the other day.
Nice.
Yeah you need a strategy for for going second beyond getting shot to pieces, and those 60-70 odd %-ages you go first you get to have some sweet fun.
Doctoralex wrote: So at the cost of three Warriors, two Staffs of Light that could add up to the total dmg output and the Mephrit stratagem, I have a 16,7% increased chance of going first.
Toholk looks OK (even if his melee weapon's special rule can never trigger). You're still going 2nd 40 (ish) % of the time though, You're slightly more likely to go first, but at the cost of being a lot less damaging if you do. I'd stick with Mephrit.
You still get to pick a Dynasty trait, you just don't get their Stratagem, Relic and WL trait all of those for Mephrit are kind of meh anyway, so not a big loss.
Without Toholk you have a 6/36 chance of seizing, with him 11/36, 50% chance vs 57% of going first assuming your opponent wants first turn. Worth the pts? Maybe barely, but in ITC you can go inside a magic box(TM) if you go second, in non-ITC you can probably find a place to at least put your Warriors in cover, so you don't necessarily auto-lose from going second. I played with my 60 Warrior Deceiver list against BA/Knights going second and still managed to win the other day.
Hmmm dunno about that. Say I'm going second, I still want all my Warriors to be in at least 29", preferably 17" so they can rapid-fire. Or else, what's the point of bringing the Deceiver?
There's gotta be a lot of terrain if they are going to survive being that close to the enemy. Going first is still much preferable.
Doctoralex wrote: Say I'm going second, I still want all my Warriors to be in at least 29", preferably 17" so they can rapid-fire. Or else, what's the point of bringing the Deceiver?
There's gotta be a lot of terrain if they are going to survive being that close to the enemy. Going first is still much preferable.
The point of the Deceiver is a massive blow-out if you get T1, the question is whether it is worth it to bring Toholk for 30 pts for a measly 7% increase in chance of going first. That's also assuming your opponent isn't just going put out 30 Guardsmen for the slaughter and keep the rest of their army more or less outside of RF range of your Deceivered Warriors or just putting up 3 Knights as a front line and keeping the Guardsmen safe. It's not really an amazing list and I don't think whether or not you include Toholk will make a big difference. He has a role in a list with a good amount of Infantry and at least a DDA or preferably a Gauss Pylon. There's also the fact that he doesn't have a model, so you'll end up using a normal Cryptek model and calling it something it's not, I personally wouldn't include him in that particular list because of these reasons.
If you play 5 or fewer games with him you are fairly unlikely to see it happen. It's something that'll show up after you play 20-30 games with the list and you maybe go first 2-3 times because of his ability.
I would like to argue that the destroyer lord should be Rated B or even B+
Been using him recently as a back field disrupted in Nephrek with the nano casket and war scythe. and has been my most consistent top preforming unit my army. For 129 points, feel he is a steal and worth every penny.
had games where he came down, got unlucky and died in over watch. came back and then proceeded to tie up multiple units the following turn and kill multiple support characters and still be on full wounds at the end of the game.
one game, he only managed to kill a few characters but got killed 3 turns in a row by a shield captain charging him. Though would argue, the threat he gave out stopped a shield captain killing other stuff for 3 turns.
Not arguing he is as good as the staple overlord/immotek these days, though i do consider him now in every list
He's fun with Crimson Haze and the Blood Scythe for kicking out a surprising number of attacks. But he's still got bad synergy and is too expensive for what he does I think.
moonsmite wrote: I would like to argue that the destroyer lord should be Rated B or even B+
Been using him recently as a back field disrupted in Nephrek with the nano casket and war scythe. and has been my most consistent top preforming unit my army. For 129 points, feel he is a steal and worth every penny.
had games where he came down, got unlucky and died in over watch. came back and then proceeded to tie up multiple units the following turn and kill multiple support characters and still be on full wounds at the end of the game.
one game, he only managed to kill a few characters but got killed 3 turns in a row by a shield captain charging him. Though would argue, the threat he gave out stopped a shield captain killing other stuff for 3 turns.
Not arguing he is as good as the staple overlord/immotek these days, though i do consider him now in every list
Nah man.... I say this as someone who recently made a D.Lord conversion, and therefore he is in almost all of my lists - he's just pointed really badly, and therefore isn't worth it. You have to make him your Warlord and give him a relic to even make him usable.
A few small tweaks (like buff working on all friendly Dynasty units, 20-30 point reduction and WS2+) would put him in B+ or even A tier, but that hasn't happened.
Interesting tournament coming up. I'm not sure can I attend as that would be 2nd tournament in same weekend. 2 days driving 120km one way is bit "ugh". But boy could this be fun. Unusual restrictions:
a) single codex only
b) no LOW
c) no detachment duplication
d) max 3 of same FOC slot
e) max 1 dataslate except max 3 for troop/dedicated transport
f) 1750 pts
Single codex obviously helps necrons. Max 1 slot hurts a bit with anti tank especially as I don't have destroyers. No LOW is nice though. Here's current idea keeping in mind my model limitations
Originally had been hoping to have nightbringer by then but seems I got cheated on that sale :-/
Don't have destroyers as said. 6 tomb blades is also max I have as are immortals maxed out. I do have 24 warriors, command barge(or annihilation since it's magnetized) amd triach stalker I could throw into mix.
Alternative would be drop 3 scarabs and swap overlord for command barge
The Destroyer Lord is a good beatstick, its just that compared to other factions' beatsticks he's a little subpar, and he doesn't provide that much synergy either.
Bit of a noob question guys but what is Imotekh's Artefact? On the Artefacts page it tells that he is already carrying on yet I can't spot it on his datasheet.
elook wrote: Bit of a noob question guys but what is Imotekh's Artefact? On the Artefacts page it tells that he is already carrying on yet I can't spot it on his datasheet.
Might be a turn of phrase. Immotekh doesn't have any 'relics' counting towards your limit.
He has a few pieces of unique wargear. But no 'relics'.
How would you og about bringing a shot load of warriors in a 2k list?
Om thinking at least a 100.
As always, force multipliers, support and transportation will be key to figure out.
My meta is luckily free of knights.
Things I'm playing around with:
Single or double battalion
Sautekh with Zahndrekh+Obyron to slingshot units forward. This requires a third HQ if I want Immortal Pride for moral and to bring the Veil
A single Night Scythe
Deceiver
Mephrit
One or more Ghost Arks
Monolith? Don't really see that happening
Illuminor Szeras - would bring some sorely needed AT
But how to fit it best together. Some items are mutually exclusive, ie Mephrit and Sautekh HQs.
Sautekh warriors could advance and still shoot, and the extra CP coming in could make up for not having autopass morale. Perhaps going without the third HQ and having Oby teleporting make up for no Veil.
Mephrit would almost require Deceiver and perhaps also a NS. With the Veil that should reliably get 2-3 units in RF turn one, with one more coming turn two.
elook wrote: Bit of a noob question guys but what is Imotekh's Artefact? On the Artefacts page it tells that he is already carrying on yet I can't spot it on his datasheet.
Named characters have unique weapons which count as their own relics. Imotekh has the staff of the destroyer.
elook wrote: Bit of a noob question guys but what is Imotekh's Artefact? On the Artefacts page it tells that he is already carrying on yet I can't spot it on his datasheet.
It's just generic wording for all special characters, it's to stop you giving them a relic. It doesn't count as your one free relic though.
torblind wrote: How would you og about bringing a shot load of warriors in a 2k list?
Om thinking at least a 100.
Other than already having the models, or a fun theme, is there a reason for wanting warriors? They are inferior against most, if not all enemy units compared to our other units.
torblind wrote: How would you og about bringing a shot load of warriors in a 2k list?
Om thinking at least a 100.
Other than already having the models, or a fun theme, is there a reason for wanting warriors? They are inferior against most, if not all enemy units compared to our other units.
That pretty much said it. Came across the models cheaply second hand it's a thematic iconic build.
p5freak wrote: 2x20 novokh warriors with chronotek, ghost ark, anrakyr, and the phaerons will plus disruption fields and blood rites can be a nasty surprise.
I had my mind set solely on the shooting power, bit this is interesting indeed! Will definitely try something along those lines. Transporting Anrakyr is the usual hickup, bit running him or deceivering him m ight get him into action soon enough
Hi Everyone. I am playing against Deathwatch at 1250 points tomorrow. What do you think of the below list? I find 1250 really tricky for Necrons as you really need to choose between wraiths and destroyers.
torblind wrote: How would you og about bringing a shot load of warriors in a 2k list?
Om thinking at least a 100.
Other than already having the models, or a fun theme, is there a reason for wanting warriors? They are inferior against most, if not all enemy units compared to our other units.
That pretty much said it. Came across the models cheaply second hand it's a thematic iconic build.
p5freak wrote: 2x20 novokh warriors with chronotek, ghost ark, anrakyr, and the phaerons will plus disruption fields and blood rites can be a nasty surprise.
I had my mind set solely on the shooting power, bit this is interesting indeed! Will definitely try something along those lines. Transporting Anrakyr is the usual hickup, bit running him or deceivering him m ight get him into action soon enough
So running some math, two full Novokh units, one fighting twice and buffed to S5, Anrakyr nearby, and a lord, exploding 6s warlord trait, between them will put 17 wounds on a knight, kill almost 100 Ork boys or kill 78 genestealers.
Of course logistics department is going to have a say in the matter.
torblind wrote: How would you og about bringing a shot load of warriors in a 2k list?
Om thinking at least a 100.
Other than already having the models, or a fun theme, is there a reason for wanting warriors? They are inferior against most, if not all enemy units compared to our other units.
They are actually pretty deadly if used right. Warriors are one of the few necron units that can actually heavily benefit from synergies and combos.
A 20 unit blob of warriors backed up by a Ghost Ark, a chronotek, and an Overlord with Eternal Pride (for the moral immunity) can be obnoxiously hard to remove, and don't underestimate the lethality of 60 gauss shots (40 from warriors, 20 from Ark), especially if there's a charge afterwards. The only real problem is that its bloody expensive to build.
They are actually pretty deadly if used right. Warriors are one of the few necron units that can actually heavily benefit from synergies and combos.
A 20 unit blob of warriors backed up by a Ghost Ark, a chronotek, and an Overlord with Eternal Pride (for the moral immunity) can be obnoxiously hard to remove, and don't underestimate the lethality of 60 gauss shots (40 from warriors, 20 from Ark), especially if there's a charge afterwards. The only real problem is that its bloody expensive to build.
Math (attached and below) says otherwise, as has been shown many times.
Warriors vs Gauss Immortals
25.93 23.56 GEQ 20.74 19.63 GEQ in cover
11.67 19.63 MEQ 15.56 15.70 MEQ in cover
03.89 03.93 TEQ 03.89 03.93 TEQ in cover
Immortal benefits are more pronounced at T5, less pronounced at T6, T7, and dramatically more pronounced at T8. Higher armor saves always work in favor of the immortals. Telsa immortals are generally better than Gauss Immortals, and destroyers are better than Immortals.
To scale it you're going to have trouble keeping your overlord within range of more than 1 or 2 warrior units, so moral is going to be a problem.
So really, I'm not under-estimating their lethality at all.
torblind wrote: So running some math, two full Novokh units, one fighting twice and buffed to S5, Anrakyr nearby, and a lord, exploding 6s warlord trait, between them will put 17 wounds on a knight, kill almost 100 Ork boys or kill 78 genestealers.
Of course logistics department is going to have a say in the matter.
I'm curious to see the math you used, I posted earlier that the effect of Crimson Haze was *1,25 with Novokh but without MWBD the actual effect is /36*44=1,222222222 and with MWBD it is /36*43=1,194444444 without Novokh or MWBD the effect is /36*42=1,166666667. I don't think it's reasonable to take Crimson Haze in such a Warrior-heavy build
Assuming one unit without MWBD fails its charge and the other suffers two casualties before charging in with MWBD and that you have to keep 4 Warriors out of combat to stay in range of Anrakyr and that 4 Warriors die in retaliatory strikes from the Knight before you get to fight again (you'll remove 3 of the 4 Warriors keeping you in range of Anrakyr, leaving only the model that is in range and removing one model that was in range to fight) you'll have:
5,833333333+(0,7+0,65)/2*12,04275263=13,96219136
4 CP to cause 5-9 extra damage to a Knight in melee seems worth it, I'll keep that in mind if I use my Novokh Warrior list again, it's still a losing battle to use 700 pts and 4CP to deal 200 pts of dmg within 12", at that kind of range without an effective delivery system you'd want 7-1200 pts of damage, which is what you'll get against Orks or Genestealers, which the list is pretty good against, it is super effective against Harlequins, all those S4 attacks without AP is an amazing counter, not only do you outrange them, you also out-fight them, their only chance is mobility and assassination.
For Warriors vs. Gauss Immortals I'd rather compare 11 Immortals to 15 Warriors to keep the pts the same, that shows what the units are good against.
Against GEQ Immortals deal 12% less damage, against GEQ in cover 10% more, against Orks 10% more, against Orks in cover 47% more, against MEQ or Chimeras 30% more, against MEQ in cover 47% more, against Leman Russes or Knights with 5++ 96% more, against Knights with 4++ 47% more.
Immortals do 27% less damage in melee.
In terms of defence they have the same toughness so we can view it in terms of AP.
Against AP+1 (cover no AP) Immortals are 47% more durable against AP-0 10% more durable, against AP-1 2% less durable, against AP-2 8% less durable, against AP -3 12% less durable, against MWs, AP-4 or higher or against AP-2 or higher while within 3" of a Chronometron 27% less durable.
In terms of board control and army coherency Immortals take up 27% less space and their maximum unit size is 50% smaller, this also limits Reanimation depending on enemy army composition. After doing this math I'm liking Gauss Immortals a lot better, I thought they were bad, but knowing that they are better than Warriors in a ton of cases makes me want to take them, given the relative success I've had with Warriors. The math has also high-lighted just how much better Teslamortals are compared to Warriors, although I'm not going to do it right now because of the issues with comparing Assault 2 and RF 1.
Tomb Blades [10 PL, 198pts]
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
+ Flyer +
Doom Scythe [11 PL, 150pts]: Death Ray, 2x Tesla Destructor
Death Company [18 PL, 195pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Inferno pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Inferno pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Chainsword, Hand flamer
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
Baal Predator [8 PL, 156pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon
. Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter
+ Dedicated Transport +
Razorback [5 PL, 89pts]: Storm bolter, Twin heavy bolter
Razorback [5 PL, 89pts]: Storm bolter, Twin heavy bolter
++ Total: [124 PL, 1999pts] ++
My list is more or less fixed. If for nothing else it pretty much contains nearly all my models I have atm and all with at least 3 colours and bases done! (command barge and triarch stalker are waiting for paint) so not much I can do on that department(plus would feel dirty changing list after opponent showed his list). How worried I should be? Lots of vehicles is worry and deep strike charging death company and no overwatch captain are bummer...(had hoped to have nightbringer as counter assault unit but that plan failed).
torblind wrote: So running some math, two full Novokh units, one fighting twice and buffed to S5, Anrakyr nearby, and a lord, exploding 6s warlord trait, between them will put 17 wounds on a knight, kill almost 100 Ork boys or kill 78 genestealers.
Of course logistics department is going to have a say in the matter.
I'm curious to see the math you used, I posted earlier that the effect of Crimson Haze was *1,25 with Novokh but without MWBD the actual effect is /36*44=1,222222222 and with MWBD it is /36*43=1,194444444 without Novokh or MWBD the effect is /36*42=1,166666667. I don't think it's reasonable to take Crimson Haze in such a Warrior-heavy build
Assuming one unit without MWBD fails its charge and the other suffers two casualties before charging in with MWBD and that you have to keep 4 Warriors out of combat to stay in range of Anrakyr and that 4 Warriors die in retaliatory strikes from the Knight before you get to fight again (you'll remove 3 of the 4 Warriors keeping you in range of Anrakyr, leaving only the model that is in range and removing one model that was in range to fight) you'll have:
5,833333333+(0,7+0,65)/2*12,04275263=13,96219136
4 CP to cause 5-9 extra damage to a Knight in melee seems worth it, I'll keep that in mind if I use my Novokh Warrior list again, it's still a losing battle to use 700 pts and 4CP to deal 200 pts of dmg within 12", at that kind of range without an effective delivery system you'd want 7-1200 pts of damage, which is what you'll get against Orks or Genestealers, which the list is pretty good against, it is super effective against Harlequins, all those S4 attacks without AP is an amazing counter, not only do you outrange them, you also out-fight them, their only chance is mobility and assassination.
For Warriors vs. Gauss Immortals I'd rather compare 11 Immortals to 15 Warriors to keep the pts the same, that shows what the units are good against.
Against GEQ Immortals deal 12% less damage, against GEQ in cover 10% more, against Orks 10% more, against Orks in cover 47% more, against MEQ or Chimeras 30% more, against MEQ in cover 47% more, against Leman Russes or Knights with 5++ 96% more, against Knights with 4++ 47% more.
Immortals do 27% less damage in melee.
In terms of defence they have the same toughness so we can view it in terms of AP.
Against AP+1 (cover no AP) Immortals are 47% more durable against AP-0 10% more durable, against AP-1 2% less durable, against AP-2 8% less durable, against AP -3 12% less durable, against MWs, AP-4 or higher or against AP-2 or higher while within 3" of a Chronometron 27% less durable.
In terms of board control and army coherency Immortals take up 27% less space and their maximum unit size is 50% smaller, this also limits Reanimation depending on enemy army composition. After doing this math I'm liking Gauss Immortals a lot better, I thought they were bad, but knowing that they are better than Warriors in a ton of cases makes me want to take them, given the relative success I've had with Warriors. The math has also high-lighted just how much better Teslamortals are compared to Warriors, although I'm not going to do it right now because of the issues with comparing Assault 2 and RF 1.
I punched it all into dice-hammer.com , but surely I could account for the math regardless. Which calculation specifically?
Simply dividing dmg output with and without Crimzon Haze reproduces your numbers.
Of course you'd need to put it into context of other force multiplying mechanisms you have available, but a 22% dmg increase certainly is worth considering?
EDIT: The calculation:
There it is, 17 wounds on an knight, T8/3+, 77 dead GS at T5/5+ or 85 dead guardsmen or 97 dead orks. 20 Novokh warriors buffed to S5, MWBD, fighting twice (gave them 4A), with a lord and Anrakyr watching over them, and 20 other warriors, also pitching in but of course can't benefit from stratagems. The logistics involved in this is of course staggering, but this is the theoretical upper limit.
Tomb Blades [10 PL, 198pts]
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
+ Flyer +
Doom Scythe [11 PL, 150pts]: Death Ray, 2x Tesla Destructor
Death Company [18 PL, 195pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Inferno pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Inferno pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Chainsword, Hand flamer
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
Baal Predator [8 PL, 156pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon
. Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter
+ Dedicated Transport +
Razorback [5 PL, 89pts]: Storm bolter, Twin heavy bolter
Razorback [5 PL, 89pts]: Storm bolter, Twin heavy bolter
++ Total: [124 PL, 1999pts] ++
My list is more or less fixed. If for nothing else it pretty much contains nearly all my models I have atm and all with at least 3 colours and bases done! (command barge and triarch stalker are waiting for paint) so not much I can do on that department(plus would feel dirty changing list after opponent showed his list). How worried I should be? Lots of vehicles is worry and deep strike charging death company and no overwatch captain are bummer...(had hoped to have nightbringer as counter assault unit but that plan failed).
Any suggestions tactics wise?
The game looks skewed in your favour. Do not worry about his vehicles too much, it's not that many, focus down his Bikes, then his Infantry. If he puts his Dreadnoughts in a big blob you can use a unit of Warriors to Advance 11" and stay 1" away, now your opponent is going to charge, kill your guys, the Dreadnoughts that don't kill your guys move 1", the one that does moves 4" and the rest move 6", compare that to the alternative of moving their max movement, charging and piling in. Don't move your Scarabs into positions where they can get charged, don't use them to kill things, their job is to take objectives and get into combat with shooting units, not to do damage. Avoid the Dreadnoughts if possible with your Wraiths, use them to take out Bikes and use consolidation moves to pile them into several shooting vehicles, charge turn 1 with the Stratagem by placing them as far forward as possible. Use Warriors against Death Company, then Tactical Marines, then against Vehicles. Use Tesla (including Destructors on the DScythe) against Bikes, then Death Company, then scouts, then vehicles. Don't split your forces, try to make the battle take place somewhere on the battlefield where there is less terrain, put your Warriors in a screen as far forward as possible but far enough away that your opponent will need to roll a 10 after moving forward and attempting to charge (19" away from Dreadnoughts, 23" away from Death Company, keep your Tesla at max range. Use your AP-5 weapons against his Baal Predator first, then any priority Dreadnoughts, then Razorbacks, finally against anything far away. Get the Veil of Darkness to pull a unit out of combat and still shoot with it. Play for the objectives!
That's what the scarabs are there if they don't die in first turn. Though pretty hard to create 10" bubble around everything valuable with that few scarabs especially now they can charge over them
Is it worth taking an outrider detachment purely for scarabs? I'm finding 3 FA slots in a battalion is too small for a scarab screen + damage dealers. Its why scarabs should really be a troops choice, as every other faction has their screening unit there.
Well it also gave me extra CP and allowed to split scarabs into 2 units(more flexible screen). Albeit cost me HQ tax but...well I ran out of models I could use anyway. Especially as I wanted at least somewhat painted model as it's going to be held in gaming event so could attract some onlookers. Better PR with at least somewhat painted models
But 1 CP, more flexibility to screens. That's what outrider gives me.
(could also give fun stuff with dynasty codes but as I'm strickler that different dynasties needs to be identifiable visually easily...)
Hmm I should try that then. I generally prefer mono detachments for book keeping reasons, but if they are all the same faction then it probably won't get too complicated.
If all detachments are from the same faction, there's no keyword conflict, right? Like, no silly crap where Novokh Detachment A can't provide buffs to Novokh detachment B?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Hmm I should try that then. I generally prefer mono detachments for book keeping reasons, but if they are all the same faction then it probably won't get too complicated.
If all detachments are from the same faction, there's no keyword conflict, right? Like, no silly crap where Novokh Detachment A can't provide buffs to Novokh detachment B?
Correct buffs don't care which detachment they are. Only time when detachment matters is with special detachments(which necrons have).
Certainly makes easier to remember. But efficiency wise mixing can improve things. Reroll 1's to hit for dda, auto max advance for wraiths etc. Necrons suffer there by expensive troos and hq tax. For orks i reqularly field 3 different klans. Evil suns for boys, bad moons for lootas and tankbustas and dethskull for shock attack gun, new buggies etc
Again thanks for the tips. Seemed to work out pretty well. We played tactical gambit(quick rule question. If you draw defend X as the "if you score it this turn get double" is that doubling flat out impossible to do? We played yes). He got to go first so I took out deploying on short edges to give depth to defence line and there was nice ruin I could use to bottleneck dreadnoughts. I took void reaper as extra relic for my 2nd overlord figuring some extra help to counter charge could be useful here.
Spoiler:
He had predator, death company and scout bikes on my left, razorbacks on right and dreadnoughts dead middle. I considered which way I want to refuse flank but with 24+d6+2d6/3d6 charge for death company those would be tough to avoid either way and if nothing else they can reposition with deep strike so I actually opted for that flank. It's pretty much hopeless to try to prevent them from reaching so mitigate that instead. I had wraiths in flat center aiming for a) bit of roadblock maybe(at least for bikes. not sure how fast those are) b) with luck death company charges them(not that I expected. he's not familiar with necrons but not THAT unfamiliar) c) if I seize they can charge the scout bikes maybe and then could potentially tag predator. Warriors formed up screens with 1 unit of scarab bit ahead for deep strike screen. Immortals back, lychguard on 3rd line along with doomsday ark.
Didn't seize. He rushed in. Shooting pretty inefficient. Like wraith. Death company and lemartes that repositioned there charged into wraiths and death company. By now 3 wraiths dead and handful of warriors. Dreadnoughts surged forward fast.
My turn 1. Warriors got most back so I opted to veil them rather than just fall back. Warlord and warriors rematerialised on his back corner. Not sure was this good idea but what I was aiming for is a) get rid of sniper rifle scouts b) give potential unit to score objective there c) give him enemy on rear. Scouts don't deal with them so he has to send something if he wants to get rid of them. Wraiths disengaged and prepared to charge predator and scout bikes. Immortals(1 my will be done'd)2nd warrior squad prepared to deal with death company. Lychguard shufled along if needed. Warrior squad #2 formed bit of wall toward immortals vs dreadnoughts. Death scythe went to gap but I put them bit too close to dreadnoughts leaving room in ASSAULT phase. Forgot the new move past flyers works also in assault phase.
Anyway scythe grilled scout bike and dented predator a bit(mistake to fire there I think). Doomsday ark blew out one furioso dreadnought of 2d6 autohitting doom sky high. BOOM! Death company and lemartess were roasted alive in massed gaus and tesla fire. Tomb blades dealt 4 scouts(forgot ignore cover...). Some scouts died as well. Wraiths did squash do. double 6 on saves saved bikes. Drat.
Turn 2. He pulled razorbacks back with squads inside disembarking and heading toward main lines. Wraith died to mines as they retreated along with predator. Shooting was abysmal with razorbacks doing literally nothing(or if something died wbb resurected). Hand to hand though one dreadnought charged past flier into warriors. Captain smash charged and dealt with scythe(needed one 6 out of 3 saves) and consolidiated(here we misplayed. He should have ended move toward closest enemy which he didn't but ah well not sure would it have mattered anyway). Dreadnought killed some warriors.
My turn. Warriors fell back. Warriors and ovelord headed toward scouts and objectives and killed scouts. Lychguard were my will be done'ed and used CP to do same for immortal squad. Shooting and DDA only hefty damaged dreadnought :( I had moved tomb blades next to his captain smash which was bad idea and it survived without issue. Drat. Something blew out the dda targeted dreadnought and I damaged the death company dreadnought heavily. Overlord and lychguard charged in and proceeded to hack it apart. Did blow up taking out tomb blade, 2 wounds to overlord, lychguard and couple warriors though...
Turn 3. He surprised me and captain smash did NOT deal with doomsday ark(I would have used strataem to get effective 4++ but with bazillion attacks and D3 tough prospect. Instead he tagged warriors, immortals and cryptek. His goal was to kill cryptek for vp's(character killing character) but frankly forgot after asking how good he is and hearing how lousy in combat proceeded to kill immortals instead. Oops. Tactical squad and sanguinary priest there as well. He killed all but 2 wraiths. I scored "control any 3 objectives" with help of the warlord and his warrior squad. Yey!
My turn. I tried to restore some wraiths but failed. Maybe not use of CP. They went and dealt with bikes at least but I needed 3rd guy so that I could have tagged predator :( My overlord with void scythe prepared to charge his captain smash. DDA blew up the last dreadnought(he's running hot!). Warriors, immortals and cryptek all fell out. I killed the tac squad from there. Overlord failed charge initially(well could have charged scout...) but CP reroll and I made it. I the used first attack ignores invulnerable to boost my odds but failed to hit and was out of CP...Drat. Remaining 2 attacks got past invulnerable saves but command reroll saved him. I actually survived! Yey!
Turn 4. Captain smash finished off my overlord(close. I needed to pass 3 4+ save and made 2). He finally managed to finish off warriors from his backfield with 1 wound left on overlord(steady stream of mortals from snipers). But he was pretty much spent. So on my turn warlord trying to run going behind rocks forcing predator and razorback to move if they wants to see(-1 to hit). DDA helped overlord along by blowing up razorback(mwahahaha this guy is running GOOD). I kiled up tac squad next to doomsday ark and then killed captain smash and sanquinary priest. Only tycho(whose presence I wasn't even aware before his turn...sure I saw model there. I forgot he had tycho and didn't realize this black primed model was it Well he had not been doing much so far) was there. I had planned to kill tycho but I then drew secure 3 and mission critical 3 wih tactical gambit "no models within 6" or d3 vp if not within 12". 3 scouts were only units within 12" of center board so that became priority target to kill. Whopping 7 vp's if I kill them which I did.
Turn 5. He finished my warlord but I think he and his squad were job well done. Tycho did something but then on my turn flat out died. After getting him to 1 wound I fired entire doomsday ark into it. I could have trusted 10 gaus shots to do it and fire at razorback but I had assasinate so...Yeah 3 past invulnerable saves and tycho was vaporized...
Turn 6 I just went and chased some scouts aiming for linebreaker if game continues which it didn't. He got 4CP from tactical gambit card and we ended up 20-16 for necrons. Score pretty close seeing I had only lost warriors, scarabs, wraiths completely plus overlords. Immortals were nearly full strength and only 1 lychguard was down by now(they had gone down to 4 but repaired themselves back). 4 tomb blades alive still as well. He had 2 or 3 scouts, predator and razorback. But he managed to get enough vp's toward the end. I made couple mistakes with objectives which cost me a bit.
Good game. Indeed I had bit tougher list than he had.
Tactical gambit I was using more than he(maybe he forgot. He admitted he should have kept more eye on objectives). Many times I had 2 bad cards and 1 good. Well throw them away and see if I can score it double. Often which I did. This kept me in vp lead thorough game.
torblind wrote: So running some math, two full Novokh units, one fighting twice and buffed to S5, Anrakyr nearby, and a lord, exploding 6s warlord trait, between them will put 17 wounds on a knight, kill almost 100 Ork boys or kill 78 genestealers.
Of course logistics department is going to have a say in the matter.
I'm curious to see the math you used,
Calculating CC hits for 20 Novokh warriors with Anrakyr nearby, fighting twice, and with MWBD, was a lot harder than I first thought. I ended up with this chart:
The Exploding 6s gets rerolls like everyone else, even if they are caused from a reroll (thus they aren't rerolling a reroll), and this adds complexity when calculating the odds.
Captain in Gravis (with extra buff aura from warlord trait)
Lieutenant
5 Scouts (boltguns, one heavy bolter)
5 Intercessors
5 Intercessors
10 Vanguard Assault Marines (variety of weapons)
1 Ancient (with extra buff aura from relic banner of some kind, think it was a 5+ FNP aura?)
3 Inceptors
5 Hellblasters
Game Setup
Spoiler:
She chose the mission, because neither of us had the texts on us and they had it memorized. Was pretty simple; 3 objectives, one in centre of table and one in each deployment zone, with VPs scored each turn, with harder to get objectives giving more VP. Was 1 for yours, 2 for the table centre, and 4 for the opponent's. Shewon the roll, so chose deployment (wedge on long table edge). I deployed the Gauss immortals in a crater guarding my objective, tomb blades on the flank close to their objective, and ghost ark with the 10 immortals on the other flank. The rest formed a single massive blob of infantry in the centre.
She deployed one intercessor squad in the back with the objective, the hellblasters in the neighbouring craters for support, the scouts infiltrated to almost have the centre objective already, the second intercessors near the centre, characters positioned to spread their buffs as widely as possible. Vanguard and Inceptors were held in reserve.
Spoiler:
I had first turn. I knew that I could either screen my rear from deep-strikes, or seize the centre, but not both, so I decided to allow her access to my rear, hoping that she'd wipe my gauss immortals and then die to my Tesla response. The Gauss Immortals got a +1BS from Szeras though, which was nice, but never really got to be used. So everything moved up, Tomb Blades advanced so they could reach the Scouts, but only managed to kill one. Was definitely missing the Ignore Cover this game, which was very cover-heavy. Tomb Blades were running hot with Resurrection Protocols: she shot and then charged them with the Intercessors, leaving one at only 1 wound left, but they kept coming back and jetting up the side of the board until they eventually were able to kill the Lieutenant who was the last one on her objective. I think I ended up losing 5 tomb blades, but still had 2 out of the 3 on the board at the end of the game!
In the centre, she simply couldn't put a dent on my mass of warriors and immortals, who systematically destroyed the scouts, hellblasters (with the Sautekh stratagem), intercessor, her Captain (with the Sautekh strategem), and the Inceptors once they deployed near the centre of the board to try and wipe the Immortals (they failed). The Stratagem stacking with MBWD is pretty brutal, that hitting on 2+ with a Tesla explosion on 4+ is a LOT of dice! Especially with the Ghost Ark healing the Warriors... Near the end of the game, the Ghost Ark took the smaller warrior squad over to her objective to make sure that her last HQ models would be facing Objective Secured models, while the 20 warrior-block sat on the centre.
In my rear, of course she deep-striked and then 3d6-charged my Gauss Immortals, but failed to kill them outright. This was a mixed blessing: she surrounded them so they couldn't withdraw, which meant that I couldn't shoot at her Veterans that turn, but of course being Objective Secured they still got me 1 extra VP. After she wiped that unit, we played one more round in which my shooting almost killed her Veterans, but by that point it was impossible for her to win by the math. My Tomb Blades and Warriors held her objective and the centre for 6 VP a turn, and she couldn't shift them, and she only had the 4VP a turn from my objective, which I could likely beat her off in a turn or two, plus I already had a 2 or 3-point lead, so we called the game there.
TLDR: Resurrection Protocols really shine in low-point games where shooting entire units off the table is hard, especially shooting 20-man Warrior squads. Szeras was fun, and is my best-painted model, but the random buff can be pretty useless. I got +1BS on the Gauss Immortals, but I think I only ever got one long-range shot off with one of them that wasn't Overwatch. +1S on Tesla never happened, and +1T on the 20-man Warriors was pretty late: by her Turn 3, any real threats in the centre of the board had been dealt with already. If there had been threats against the warriors though, making them T5 would have been really nice against Marines.
Again thanks for the tips. Good game. Indeed I had bit tougher list than he had.
It sounds like you played as well as you could have. I think I could've given your opponent advice that would've let them win as well, there are three factors to a game of 40k, list building determines how many resources you have at your disposal (how many wounds with how much toughness, how many attacks with what AP values and at what ranges, how much mobility is attached to those attacks and how many CP you start with and can regenerate over the course of the game) how you actually play determines how many of your resources you use each turn (deployment, picking the right targets, ensuring your units don't get locked in combat and disallowing enemy units from retreating) and luck. Lychguard are pretty bad, at the very least the shield-variants are IMO and small units of Nephrekh Warriors aren't any good competitively speaking either, Nephrekh DDA is kind of laughable not because it's bad but because it's strictly worse than the Sautekh and Nihilakh versions. So it wasn't that you had a tonne of extra resources in terms of CP, damage, durability and mobility, but that you had enough to deal with your opponent if you played smart. I was also looking at your opponent's list in a bit of meta perspective, I could see that his list wasn't built to win tournaments, so I expected him not to play like he was attempting to win a tournament.
Neither of us were building lists with tournament in mind. This was not tournament after all. And like 99% tournaments i jttend aren"t competive ones either. lychguard certainly aren't metabusters but neither are tac marines or dreadnoughts.
As for playing as well as i Could...well not quite. There were couple mistakes i made. Wraith deployment was probably suboptimal, veil timing and location was debatable(though worked out when razorbacks pulled back and failed to deal with in quick order. Took turn too long to take control any 3 objectives and let warrior, immortal and cryptek be tagged by single captain removing overwatch all and making all have to fallback.
Trying to stop captain with advancing tomb blades was also bad and was careless wiuh wraith positioning so having tagged scouts lost only model in combat as it was the wounde one. And warlord should have advanced alone out of los from snipers
Just finished my first ITC. Some notes to point out. Deathmarks are terrible. Wanted to use them to counter Assassins. Didn't work. Triarch Stalkers seem okay but not so.necessary, probably an okay substitution.to a 2rd Doomsday if you can't afford it. Tomb Blades and Doom Scythes are essential but I guess everyone knows that lol
elook wrote: Just finished my first ITC. Some notes to point out. Deathmarks are terrible. Wanted to use them to counter Assassins. Didn't work. Triarch Stalkers seem okay but not so.necessary, probably an okay substitution.to a 2rd Doomsday if you can't afford it. Tomb Blades and Doom Scythes are essential but I guess everyone knows that lol
Why are scythes essential? Their effectively Sautekh only, admitadly not the worst drawback, bit they're Heavy D3. Does the increased but demanding mobility make up for this? Surely you'd go 3 DDAs before starting with doom scythes?
Presumably stratagem. Also sautekh isn't worry with 3 as they will obviously be own det for free cp. Necrons aren"t generally low on free det slots so 3 scythe are obv air det. No hq tax, extra cp, sautekh without messing with dynasty of other units
tneva82 wrote: Presumably stratagem. Also sautekh isn't worry with 3 as they will obviously be own det for free cp. Necrons aren"t generally low on free det slots so 3 scythe are obv air det. No hq tax, extra cp, sautekh without messing with dynasty of other units
Sure, so would you fill out 3 Doom Scythes rather than go 3 DDAs then? For that one CP, some behind-enemy-lines harassment,
The stratagem, which undeniably is good, is a use-once at best before one of them gets shot. If you survive with 3 doom scythes in the face of the enemy for two turns, then something is wrong and you are winning any way, and future use of that stratagem is likely redundant.
I'm open to it being true, I'm just surprised, I'd think the natural choice would be more destroyers, DDAs or wraiths.
But sure, they provide something the others don't, the ability to fly around in the face of the enemy which can be disturbing enough. And even with the recent change to flyers, they could still stop large blobs from moving ahead as they would like.
Yeah generally I agree but the "sautek requirement" isn't much of issue anyway. There's not much good dynasties for flyers anyway and 3 doom scythe is basically obvious sautekh flyers anyway regardless of rest of your unit's dynasties. Nephrek? Fine. Flyers are sautekh. Only flyers who don't have sautekh are basically mephrit for adventorous ones or if you have less than 3.
Oh and yeah that blocking is still usable. I could have benefitted from that if I had been more careful preventing dreadnought from hitting into my warriors.
tneva82 wrote: Presumably stratagem. Also sautekh isn't worry with 3 as they will obviously be own det for free cp. Necrons aren"t generally low on free det slots so 3 scythe are obv air det. No hq tax, extra cp, sautekh without messing with dynasty of other units
Sure, so would you fill out 3 Doom Scythes rather than go 3 DDAs then? For that one CP, some behind-enemy-lines harassment,
The stratagem, which undeniably is good, is a use-once at best before one of them gets shot. If you survive with 3 doom scythes in the face of the enemy for two turns, then something is wrong and you are winning any way, and future use of that stratagem is likely redundant.
I'm open to it being true, I'm just surprised, I'd think the natural choice would be more destroyers, DDAs or wraiths.
But sure, they provide something the others don't, the ability to fly around in the face of the enemy which can be disturbing enough. And even with the recent change to flyers, they could still stop large blobs from moving ahead as they would like.
I think they work well in duo. Scythes can shoot where the DDA can't. Scythes are better early for the potential destruction they can bring, but their efficiency decline faster ( difficulty to manoeuver them, and you won't have 3 all game). DDA tend to be more stable along the game (more shot, very good range, versatile).
The argument of which one you max first is kind of 'resolved' by the fact that Scythes has to be taken by 3 to have access to the stratagem (and gain 1CP by the way). It's not that having two scythes is bad, but three offer you some serious damage if you have first turn or manage to stay out of range for the opponent first turn (not always possible but can work).
DDA are not exponentially better the more you take, it's only a matter of redundancy and stability. The gap between 2 to 3 DDA and 2 to 3 Scythes is not the same, you have a bigger gain to take the third Scythe.
So if you plan to play Scythes i understand how they can be prioritized over DDA. The question is, in my opinion, Scythes of no Scythes. If yes, take three, build your army accordingly. If not you will probably take 3 DDA and maybe complement them with a Stalker, and not a Doomscythe.
There was a two day 85 person event in Texas using ITC + special bonus score, The Alamo GT (it is on BCP for reference), and a Necron Player went with 5 wins but score wise got 2nd place.
1st was Thousand sons, 3rd was Guard battery + 3 Knights.
elook wrote: Interesting how he brought Imotekh and another Warlord. Getting Tesla to 4+ ability on 3 units, potentially 4 with the strat, witb MWBD.
Wut? How do you manage to get 4+ tesla on four units? MWBD gives only + 1 to hit..If you spend 1 CP on the strat, you can have three 4+ tesla units, not four. Or am I missing something? ^^
elook wrote: Interesting how he brought Imotekh and another Warlord. Getting Tesla to 4+ ability on 3 units, potentially 4 with the strat, witb MWBD.
Wut? How do you manage to get 4+ tesla on four units? MWBD gives only + 1 to hit..If you spend 1 CP on the strat, you can have three 4+ tesla units, not four. Or am I missing something? ^^
Imotek=2 units gets +1 for MWBD, overlord 3rd, stratagem that gives extra MWBD for 4th.
elook wrote: Interesting how he brought Imotekh and another Warlord. Getting Tesla to 4+ ability on 3 units, potentially 4 with the strat, witb MWBD.
Wut? How do you manage to get 4+ tesla on four units? MWBD gives only + 1 to hit..If you spend 1 CP on the strat, you can have three 4+ tesla units, not four. Or am I missing something? ^^
Imotek=2 units gets +1 for MWBD, overlord 3rd, stratagem that gives extra MWBD for 4th.
Yep, so that's 4 units who get 5+ tesla, not 4+. MWBD only provides +1 to hit, not +2.
So you can get four "5+ tesla units" if you shoot at different targets, or three "4+ tesla units" if you shoot at the same target with the stratagem.
elook wrote: Interesting how he brought Imotekh and another Warlord. Getting Tesla to 4+ ability on 3 units, potentially 4 with the strat, witb MWBD.
Wut? How do you manage to get 4+ tesla on four units? MWBD gives only + 1 to hit..If you spend 1 CP on the strat, you can have three 4+ tesla units, not four. Or am I missing something? ^^
Imotek=2 units gets +1 for MWBD, overlord 3rd, stratagem that gives extra MWBD for 4th.
Yep, so that's 4 units who get 5+ tesla, not 4+. MWBD only provides +1 to hit, not +2.
So you can get four "5+ tesla units" if you shoot at different targets, or three "4+ tesla units" if you shoot at the same target with the stratagem.
Or wound with something else(like stalker) and hit all 4 units into same target.
elook wrote: Interesting how he brought Imotekh and another Warlord. Getting Tesla to 4+ ability on 3 units, potentially 4 with the strat, witb MWBD.
Wut? How do you manage to get 4+ tesla on four units? MWBD gives only + 1 to hit..If you spend 1 CP on the strat, you can have three 4+ tesla units, not four. Or am I missing something? ^^
Imotek=2 units gets +1 for MWBD, overlord 3rd, stratagem that gives extra MWBD for 4th.
Yep, so that's 4 units who get 5+ tesla, not 4+. MWBD only provides +1 to hit, not +2.
So you can get four "5+ tesla units" if you shoot at different targets, or three "4+ tesla units" if you shoot at the same target with the stratagem.
Or wound with something else(like stalker) and hit all 4 units into same target.
So that would be three "4+ tesla" units + one "5+ tesla unit", that's the best we can get
So that would be three "4+ tesla" units + one "5+ tesla unit", that's the best we can get
Ummm.
Imotek MWBD 2 units.
Overlord MWBD 1 unit.
Pharaon's will 1 unit. 4 units with +1 to hit.
Stalker shoots at unit A. Wounds. You trigger stratagem. +1 to hit for rest of the army.
MWBD'ed 1st unit shoots. 1 4+
MWBD'ed 2nd unit shoots. 2 4+
MWBD'ed 3rd unit shoots. 3 4+
MWBD'ed 4th unit shoots. 4 4+
Math checks out right? You have 4 MWBD in the army and you don't have to use one of those to trigger the sautekh stratagem.
Sadly the stalker can't trigger Methodical Destruction (no Dynasty Trait) but the math is valid if you shoot with something else. Like a Doomscythe in the list.
Some people take the Sautekh relic (Abyssal Staff) to trigger it too. It can't miss and have a very good chance to put a wound. With a cryptek with cloak you can have somebody to escort the Tombblades, and give them a reliable way to trigger Methodical Destruction.
Ah right. My bad. Have yet to get stalker painted.
Up against blood angels today. 1550, single codex. Opponent practicing for tournament(ergo 1550). will have this:
Spoiler:
Overlord(warscythe)
crpytek(canoptek cloak)
2x10 tesla immortal
10xwarrior
11xwarrior
6xscarab swarm
6xwraith
5xtomb blade(3xshield vane&ignore cover, 1x5++, all twin tesla)
doomsday ark
doom scythe
So similar to saturday list minus lychguard, 2nd overlord and bits and pieces. This time will be sautekh to ensure maximum competiveness as it's tournament practice game. Lack of reliable 1st turn charge with wraith hurts but at least don't have to commit to moving full speed ahead if I roll low on advance. And besides lately been bad at getting T1 anyway!
From saturday list got up in competiveness especially due to smaller point value allowing to drop the non-competive elements from filling up points. Obviously blood angel list will be more competive as well and is handled by competive player so not feeling particularly confident...
What fourth unit? What are we talking about? Still the Doom Scythe list? Because that list had 3 MWBD targets excluding the characters which already hit on 2+. Tomb Blades are not targets.
I continue to be baffled by the apparent success of triple Doom Scythes. The stratagem doesn't do that much damage as far as I can see (only own 2 so never tested it), like, if you hit most of my lists with that it wouldn't be crippling. I feel like it's got to be a ton of Methodical Destruction/ MWBD Tesla doing the heavy lifting in that list. Move blocking with aircraft still works well despite the FAQ so that helps, and they can screen vs deepstrike assault units.
Overwatch happens in the charge phase, and slain models are removed in the charge phase.
) and lootas are just murder vs necrons. Tomb blades? Bye bye. Doomsday ark? What's that?
They would eat wraith for breakfast 
