Now we know why Ophydian Destroyers have Living Metal. Because RP is almost worthless on a 3 wound model. Hopefully many other multi wound models also have LM.
vipoid wrote: It seems like Thousand Sons are going to wipe the floor with Necrons.
A typical build yes. If you take gloom prisims and ctan you can counter them and they cant counter you. They are pretty resilient to necron shooting though. Can crush them in melee though with certain units.
You say that they can't counter us, but all their Smites and other psychic powers negate RPs entirely.
You could use the Szarekhan faction to get that 5+ fnp against mortal wounds which would really help. And that stacks with RP against melee or shooting MWs.
vipoid wrote: It seems like Thousand Sons are going to wipe the floor with Necrons.
A typical build yes. If you take gloom prisims and ctan you can counter them and they cant counter you. They are pretty resilient to necron shooting though. Can crush them in melee though with certain units.
You say that they can't counter us, but all their Smites and other psychic powers negate RPs entirely.
I mean they can't counter the ctan abilities. You can counter their spells though with a gloom prism. Plus IDK how effective this would be but also Illuminator has some anti psychic abilities. One of the dynasties has a 5++ to mortal wounds as well.
i would say 1k sons would counter necrons pretty hard if they still had old smite bonuses.
They lost that in 9th so realistically theyre only causing ~6 mortals, and thats assuming they got that many psykers close enough to a single unit and not having 1-2 slightly closer to another unit as they cant "point" their spells.
My roommate has 1k sons and when their smite didnt increase in cost he would get tons of them off but generally spread across my army just because thats how things got placed due to terrain.
vipoid wrote: It seems like Thousand Sons are going to wipe the floor with Necrons.
I play Thousand Sons and don't feel like this at all. We lost our Smite bonus.
9th is all about scoring, and Thousand Sons give up 15 VPs every game by default now, which is a pretty serious downside. negating RP on a few Necron models doesn't really balance that out.
I don't really see the big issue with the new RP, yeah multi wound things are way worse but do we really use the destroyers for their staying power? I'm just super excited to run a bunch of Flayed ones now since they will be very durable and cool looking.
The way I understand it, the new Reanimation offers a very comfortable situation to your enemy.
3 leman russ-like units are facing two units of 3+ wound necron models (unit A and unit B)
First leman russ splits his two volleys firing first at unit A. One necron 3W dies and has no real chance of reanimating. Second volley targets unit B, one necron 3W dies with effectively no RP.
Second leman russ does the same. First volley targets unit A, kills one model. no RP. Second volley targets unit B. necrons get lucky, no kills, but one guy with 1W left. A couple of lasguns finishes it off. No RP.
Third leman russ, .... rince and repeat. Our glorius 5 model killy-killy unit is now 2 models left. Unless he can get some other unit in range too. RP effectively canceled out in its entirity for 3w models with some careful fire planning.
In hilariously other words: He can comfortably use an attrition like game style to beat Necrons. That table certainly turned.
torblind wrote: The way I understand it, the new Reanimation offers a very comfortable situation to your enemy.
3 leman russ-like units are facing two units of 3+ wound necron models (unit A and unit B)
First leman russ splits his two volleys firing first at unit A. One necron 3W dies and has no real chance of reanimating. Second volley targets unit B, one necron 3W dies with effectively no RP.
Second leman russ does the same. First volley targets unit A, kills one model. no RP. Second volley targets unit B. necrons get lucky, no kills, but one guy with 1W left. A couple of lasguns finishes it off. No RP.
Third leman russ, .... rince and repeat. Our glorius 5 model killy-killy unit is now 2 models left. Unless he can get some other unit in range too. RP effectively canceled out in its entirity for 3w models with some careful fire planning.
In hilariously other words: He can comfortably use an attrition like game style to beat Necrons. That table certainly turned.
And that is why all fallen necron models should be eligible for revival until the unit is wiped out.
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Overread wrote: Perhaps 3 wound models will rely on things other than just reanimation protocols to be effective in the game?
Maybe, but does it say anything on their profiles? Apparently Ophydians have Living Metal, but do the other multi-wound models have it, and what does Living Metal even do now? It would be funny if Living Metal regenerated a wound after every enemy unit attack. That would cause a stir.
Overread wrote: Perhaps 3 wound models will rely on things other than just reanimation protocols to be effective in the game?
Maybe, but does it say anything on their profiles? Apparently Ophydians have Living Metal, but do the other multi-wound models have it, and what does Living Metal even do now?
It would be funny if Living Metal regenerated a wound after every enemy unit attack. That would cause a stir.
Well I hope its the case otherwise Necrons are going to be rather boring if the entire army that isn't a monolith/silentking/C'tan relies upon reanimation to do anything in the game. Remembering that many other armies don't always have similar measures.
I'm just saying that Reanimation Protocols not being the best thing for multi-wound models might not be the problem some are making it out to be. Plus until we know the full rules and the interactions possible, we can't really say what is or isn't good just yet. Once we've a more complete picture we can better judge things.
One might even argue that getting your single multiwound unit into range of 3 separate leman russ tanks is a poor choice of positioning in the part of the necron player; thus allowing their opponent to do just that tactic. Plus don't overlook the fact that they've still had to use all three tanks in one turn on one unit.
One might even argue that getting your single multiwound unit into range of 3 separate leman russ tanks is a poor choice of positioning in the part of the necron player; thus allowing their opponent to do just that tactic. Plus don't overlook the fact that they've still had to use all three tanks in one turn on one unit.
No that was two units. Necron 3W models are not soaking any fire at this point. RP is not causing over kill any more. He can comfortably just barely kill one off with each unit that is able to do so. Evenly distributing his fire power over our army instead of wasing it on over kill. This is what he always wants to do, and RP is rewarding him for it.
And if a missile launcher rolles a 2, he can just plunk the last wound off with some long range bolters.
One might even argue that getting your single multiwound unit into range of 3 separate leman russ tanks is a poor choice of positioning in the part of the necron player; thus allowing their opponent to do just that tactic. Plus don't overlook the fact that they've still had to use all three tanks in one turn on one unit.
No that was two units. Necron 3W models are not soaking any fire at this point. RP is not causing over kill any more. He can comfortably just barely kill one off with each unit that is able to do so. Evenly distributing his fire power over our army instead of wasing it on over kill. This is what he always wants to do, and RP is rewarding him for it.
And if a missile launcher rolles a 2, he can just plunk the last wound off with some long range bolters.
You have terrain and deployment so this world where your opponent gets to shoot all of his units at the best possible targets to maximize our weakness is not going to happen. Statistically speaking our multi-wound creatures are toughness 5 so that means they wound on 3's with battle cannons than they have to roll damage which is another die roll. Not to mention it is actually a good thing as your opponent will actually decide to take a shot at killing something, when the obvious choice should be to kill the unit on the objective.
Be prepared to see opponents screwing up target priority.
Allowing models to always attempt to revive with it triggering after each attack would be broken. Theres no possible way that could be balanced. Even if it was on a 6+, it would mean you literally cannot kill a 20man warrior blob unless you actually forced them to suffer enough wounds to get totally wiped. Any "random shot" at that unit would potentially trigger more to stand up than was there when that "random shot" hit them. Gotta remember its not actually that common for multiple units to throw a bucket of dice that are actually accurate AND lethal.
The change to not allow previously dead models to revive was expected. The change to the multiwound models was not and imo stepped too far.
One might even argue that getting your single multiwound unit into range of 3 separate leman russ tanks is a poor choice of positioning in the part of the necron player; thus allowing their opponent to do just that tactic. Plus don't overlook the fact that they've still had to use all three tanks in one turn on one unit.
No that was two units. Necron 3W models are not soaking any fire at this point. RP is not causing over kill any more. He can comfortably just barely kill one off with each unit that is able to do so. Evenly distributing his fire power over our army instead of wasing it on over kill. This is what he always wants to do, and RP is rewarding him for it.
And if a missile launcher rolles a 2, he can just plunk the last wound off with some long range bolters.
You have terrain and deployment so this world where your opponent gets to shoot all of his units at the best possible targets to maximize our weakness is not going to happen. Statistically speaking our multi-wound creatures are toughness 5 so that means they wound on 3's with battle cannons than they have to roll damage which is another die roll. Not to mention it is actually a good thing as your opponent will actually decide to take a shot at killing something, when the obvious choice should be to kill the unit on the objective.
Be prepared to see opponents screwing up target priority.
Of course you can deny yourself shooting with your destroyers. But the moment you opt to shoot you give opponent chance to do that.
You keeping destroyers/etc back rather than contributing is win for ig already
Do people think the restrictions on the protocols is bad? Or does it make it a balanced rule? Needing to be within 6” of a hero and having to have an overlord on the field in particular.
Tiberius501 wrote: Do people think the restrictions on the protocols is bad? Or does it make it a balanced rule? Needing to be within 6” of a hero and having to have an overlord on the field in particular.
Looking at it on its own I think it's a significant limitation of the rule, I mean how many nobles are we going to be bringing? But on the other hand, if this is an indication that, say, Space Marine Doctrines are going to work similarly then I think that's a good direction to take the game in so that we have fewer full army buffs layered on top of each other everywhere.
Tiberius501 wrote: Do people think the restrictions on the protocols is bad? Or does it make it a balanced rule? Needing to be within 6” of a hero and having to have an overlord on the field in particular.
Looking at it on its own I think it's a significant limitation of the rule, I mean how many nobles are we going to be bringing? But on the other hand, if this is an indication that, say, Space Marine Doctrines are going to work similarly then I think that's a good direction to take the game in so that we have fewer full army buffs layered on top of each other everywhere.
I have a feeling Doctrines won’t be changing. But if they do I agree it’d be a good direction to take these kinds of rules.
The protocols themselves are in effect in you're within range of any character, it doesn't have to be a noble. At least going by the wording on the Warcom article.
From my understanding you just need a noble to be on the field and then near any character.
EDIT: I could be wrong but from memory the original article that mentions protocols says they need to be within 6” of characters. So what’s the point of the extra aura range if that’s how it works? Or am I making up the 6” range.
torblind wrote: The way I understand it, the new Reanimation offers a very comfortable situation to your enemy.
3 leman russ-like units are facing two units of 3+ wound necron models (unit A and unit B)
First leman russ splits his two volleys firing first at unit A. One necron 3W dies and has no real chance of reanimating. Second volley targets unit B, one necron 3W dies with effectively no RP.
Second leman russ does the same. First volley targets unit A, kills one model. no RP. Second volley targets unit B. necrons get lucky, no kills, but one guy with 1W left. A couple of lasguns finishes it off. No RP.
Third leman russ, .... rince and repeat. Our glorius 5 model killy-killy unit is now 2 models left. Unless he can get some other unit in range too. RP effectively canceled out in its entirity for 3w models with some careful fire planning.
In hilariously other words: He can comfortably use an attrition like game style to beat Necrons. That table certainly turned.
I still think this is far better than the current RP as it at least gives the Necron player the CHANCE to make RP roll.
Currently you just wipe the unit and be done with them. No RP possible.
And I personally think it's perfectly fluffy for it to be more difficult to repair multi wound models. They are more complex and harder to kill, so they'd naturally be harder to repair.
Warriors, otoh, should be super easy to repair by comparison.
Big units of Warriors with boosted RPs will be very hard to shift now. Finally.
Well you still can wipe unit and no rp. Lots of units that do that.
But yes it's slight improvement for 1w models. Multiwound models it might just as well not exist but that's just sidestep from 8e. Useless then, useless now. Different reason, same result.
20 warriors at least might get few rolls. Opponent will thin first with small firepower, then do remaining 15 or so at once
tneva82 wrote: Well you still can wipe unit and no rp. Lots of units that do that.
But yes it's slight improvement for 1w models. Multiwound models it might just as well not exist but that's just sidestep from 8e. Useless then, useless now. Different reason, same result.
20 warriors at least might get few rolls. Opponent will thin first with small firepower, then do remaining 15 or so at once
I don't know why you are having a hard time using terrain and deployment to protect your units, if your only protection is RP you are doing something wrong. I have been playing Necrons/Imperium for nearly 20 years and RP has never been useless. This codex increases durability by giving more units t5 and giving warriors a re-roll RP of 1. The second and most important thing is the offensive capabilities of our multi-wound units. They are less durable but they hit like a ton of bricks.
We exchanged durability for offensive prowess with our multi-wound models. We have -4 AP weapons minimum of 2D weapons all over the place!
If your necron warriors can shoot at the enemy here's newsflash. So can they. Necron warriors don't have ignore LOS weapon so if you can see them so can they.
And 40k is so deadly atm that 20 T4 4+ wounds is basically no issue.
And reroll 1 for RP...Here's news. To use that you need to actually ROLL for RP. Now in case you haven't read the RP rule(old and new). If whole unit dies you don't roll RP. Reroll RP is no use if you don't roll for it. Imagine that.
tneva82 wrote: If your necron warriors can shoot at the enemy here's newsflash. So can they. Necron warriors don't have ignore LOS weapon so if you can see them so can they.
And 40k is so deadly atm that 20 T4 4+ wounds is basically no issue.
And reroll 1 for RP...Here's news. To use that you need to actually ROLL for RP. Now in case you haven't read the RP rule(old and new). If whole unit dies you don't roll RP. Reroll RP is no use if you don't roll for it. Imagine that.
Can I have an example, what unit can wipe out 20 t4 4+ wounds?
i hear people say that all the time that 20 4+ (or even 3+ for that matter given cover or the protocol active) models are still easy enough to wipe out in 1 go.
What unit that doesnt cost considerably more than that 20 warrior blob can do this without needing some insane outside help (i.e. increasing its cost more to do it) or some ludicrous luck?
I play orks. My 6++ save deathskull boyz dont suffer that much casualties from a single attack, how the hell would a 3/4+ suffer it?
The point of the new RP is no single unit is going to deny that RP test, unless you get just the worst possible luck ever.
Everything that has the AP to ignore the armor lacks the RoF to kill 20 models (both accuracy and wounding). Anything that has the RoF, lacks the AP. The only exceptions are utilizing outside sources (i.e. Auras or strats) which add extra cost to the situation.
I swear orks are the only players that actually understand the concept of "my health is a resource" - i will gladly sacrifice a 20man warrior squad if you burn enough points worth of shooting to deny my RP that you ended up spending significantly more points to remove them than i did to bring them in the first place.
Vineheart01 wrote: i hear people say that all the time that 20 4+ (or even 3+ for that matter given cover or the protocol active) models are still easy enough to wipe out in 1 go.
What unit that doesnt cost considerably more than that 20 warrior blob can do this without needing some insane outside help (i.e. increasing its cost more to do it) or some ludicrous luck?
I play orks. My 6++ save deathskull boyz dont suffer that much casualties from a single attack, how the hell would a 3/4+ suffer it?
The point of the new RP is no single unit is going to deny that RP test, unless you get just the worst possible luck ever.
Everything that has the AP to ignore the armor lacks the RoF to kill 20 models (both accuracy and wounding). Anything that has the RoF, lacks the AP. The only exceptions are utilizing outside sources (i.e. Auras or strats) which add extra cost to the situation.
I swear orks are the only players that actually understand the concept of "my health is a resource" - i will gladly sacrifice a 20man warrior squad if you burn enough points worth of shooting to deny my RP that you ended up spending significantly more points to remove them than i did to bring them in the first place.
It was a trap, I know there isn't a unit like that! I just wanted to hear his answer, his last few post have been very negative! (Thousand Sons mortal wounds, RP sucks, they can wipe the whole unit out, useless on multi-wound models)
Yes aggressors can, but i'd be kinda surprised to see a full warrior squad get hit by aggressors.
Aggressors are short ranged and are so lethal for their laughably cheap price tag that they are valid targets for proper anti-tank guns. I always kill them the instant i can see them. They piss me off lol.
I'd expect any warrior unit to get hit by aggressors to already be around half strength anyway. Whcih at that point yeah byebye warriors lol
Sasori wrote: There is a few units out there that can wipe a 20-man unit in one go, but not a ton. Aggressors come to mind.
Captain Aizen it can happen but 72 shots equal 48 hits which means 24 wounds than with the warrior's save 12 or 16 dead Warriors if the correct doctrine is in place.
Edited after Sasori reminded me of buffs and the ability to fire twice which means they can on average kill the unit without RP.
Sasori wrote: There is a few units out there that can wipe a 20-man unit in one go, but not a ton. Aggressors come to mind.
Captain Aizen it can happen but 72 shots equal 48 hits which means 24 wounds than with the warrior's save 12 or 16 dead Marines if the correct doctrine is in place.
It's safe to assume that there will be some rerolls on the marine side, as well as a very large chance of firing twice.
2 ghost arks with warriors inside, 3 squads of immortals, a CCB, the deceiver, the void dragon, one big squad of warriors for backfield, one squad of shooty destroyers seems like a good 9th list.
Not sure what the points is on that atm, but its got early game mobility, a durable backfield unit and some midfield threat.
Eihnlazer wrote: aggressors wont be able to wipe a squad out since the new RP means half your guys will get back up.
Since they have to declare both volley's of their attacks at the same time, they will be wasting alot of their shots.
If I'm reading the previewed rule correctly in that you only roll for models killed in the current attack...
6 aggressors with no buffs at all (including doctrines) kill an average of 12 warriors on the 1st volley (they do get blast on frag launchers). Maximum buffed warriors (+1 to RP from somewhere) with the latest datasheet rerolling 1's get an average of 7 back, aggressors shoot again and take 12 again, 7 come back again. 10 warriors are gone which doesn't sound bad for standing up to aggressors incredible shooting, but the point is that those 10 are never coming back at all under any circumstances. Under new RP it seems like its just a nerfed version of disgusting resiliance rather than a regeneration ability. If the previews are the whole picture then necrons cannot hide a depleted unit to regen it back up, strats to put RP on wraiths are laughably bad, and small multi wound units have such a low chance of passing RP the rule may as well not apply (1/27 chance of 1 3w model standing up, if failed on the 1st roll its dead for ever).
New RP rules feel way worse for multi wound units (astronomically low chance of success), and substantially worse for single wound units (fail once = permadeath). I kinda feel that a much simpler solution would be to have changed nothing on the RP rule itself, but add stratagems for at least 2 scenarios:
1. Last model in unit is wiped out, enact stratagem that allows for an immediate RP roll. Boom, problem of focusing a unit is gone.
2. Other factions that do not have a thematic ability to regen units have "recycle a unit" stratagems (remove unit, bring it back on from an edge at full strength), necrons should have this.
vipoid wrote: I know it's early, but do you think the new RP rules might be enough to make Silver Tide lists viable again?
Quite possible, though the main issue aside that was hamstringing it besides RP, is the inability for Gauss to really kill tanks anymore. You'll need to supplement the tide with a fair amount of Anti-tank options.
So are we disappointed about the Necrons so far? It seems a lot are disappointed with protocols, and Reanimation seems like it’s great for warriors but has gotten a nerf to big things.
Tiberius501 wrote: So are we disappointed about the Necrons so far? It seems a lot are disappointed with protocols, and Reanimation seems like it’s great for warriors but has gotten a nerf to big things.
No, not really. RP is still an improvement over what we have now. It's great on 1W models, good on 2W, and not great on 3W+. That being said, the way it's worded leaves a lot of room for rules to turn knobs and dials for improvents, as well as the WHFB post saying that as well.
My main beef for the protocols is you have to go through an extensive amount of hoops to use them, that does not seem needed at the power level they provide. Several are really good, like sudden storm, but it still doesn't quite justify what's going on here.
We also know that there has been tons of improvements to our unit profiles from all the updated datasheets. Nearly ever unit has been improved in some manner.
There is a lot to be happy about from what we know, and still a lot more that needs to be revealed. I'll hold out judgement until I see the full rules and points, but the army is 100% in a much better place from what we have seen.
Eihnlazer wrote: aggressors wont be able to wipe a squad out since the new RP means half your guys will get back up.
Since they have to declare both volley's of their attacks at the same time, they will be wasting alot of their shots.
If I'm reading the previewed rule correctly in that you only roll for models killed in the current attack...
6 aggressors with no buffs at all (including doctrines) kill an average of 12 warriors on the 1st volley (they do get blast on frag launchers). Maximum buffed warriors (+1 to RP from somewhere) with the latest datasheet rerolling 1's get an average of 7 back, aggressors shoot again and take 12 again, 7 come back again. 10 warriors are gone which doesn't sound bad for standing up to aggressors incredible shooting, but the point is that those 10 are never coming back at all under any circumstances. We dont know that. Ghost arks could bring some back, and there may be new strats Under new RP it seems like its just a nerfed version of disgusting resiliance rather than a regeneration ability. If the previews are the whole picture then necrons cannot hide a depleted unit to regen it back up, strats to put RP on wraiths are laughably bad, and small multi wound units have such a low chance of passing RP the rule may as well not apply (1/27 chance of 1 3w model standing up, if failed on the 1st roll its dead for ever).There could be something new that increases the wound pool (hopefully reanimators and spiders do this).
New RP rules feel way worse for multi wound units (astronomically low chance of success), and substantially worse for single wound units (fail once = permadeath). I kinda feel that a much simpler solution would be to have changed nothing on the RP rule itself, but add stratagems for at least 2 scenarios:
1. Last model in unit is wiped out, enact stratagem that allows for an immediate RP roll. Boom, problem of focusing a unit is gone.
2. Other factions that do not have a thematic ability to regen units have "recycle a unit" stratagems (remove unit, bring it back on from an edge at full strength), necrons should have this.I agree that crons should get this with warriors.
Eihnlazer wrote: aggressors wont be able to wipe a squad out since the new RP means half your guys will get back up.
Since they have to declare both volley's of their attacks at the same time, they will be wasting alot of their shots.
If I'm reading the previewed rule correctly in that you only roll for models killed in the current attack...
6 aggressors with no buffs at all (including doctrines) kill an average of 12 warriors on the 1st volley (they do get blast on frag launchers). Maximum buffed warriors (+1 to RP from somewhere) with the latest datasheet rerolling 1's get an average of 7 back, aggressors shoot again and take 12 again, 7 come back again. 10 warriors are gone which doesn't sound bad for standing up to aggressors incredible shooting, but the point is that those 10 are never coming back at all under any circumstances. Under new RP it seems like its just a nerfed version of disgusting resiliance rather than a regeneration ability. If the previews are the whole picture then necrons cannot hide a depleted unit to regen it back up, strats to put RP on wraiths are laughably bad, and small multi wound units have such a low chance of passing RP the rule may as well not apply (1/27 chance of 1 3w model standing up, if failed on the 1st roll its dead for ever).
New RP rules feel way worse for multi wound units (astronomically low chance of success), and substantially worse for single wound units (fail once = permadeath). I kinda feel that a much simpler solution would be to have changed nothing on the RP rule itself, but add stratagems for at least 2 scenarios:
1. Last model in unit is wiped out, enact stratagem that allows for an immediate RP roll. Boom, problem of focusing a unit is gone.
2. Other factions that do not have a thematic ability to regen units have "recycle a unit" stratagems (remove unit, bring it back on from an edge at full strength), necrons should have this.
I think the main problem is assuming that aggressors have no buffs, that's almost always not going to be the case in practice. We also don't know what ways there will be to buff it to 4+, so putting that in the comparison doesn't make a lot of sense.
The new RP rules are not substantially worse for single wound units, because you actually get to roll for units now. In a vacuum the old RP looks great. In practice it was almost never relevant. You either counted on your player not knowing how Necrons worked, or in very rare circumstances you got to make a roll for a depleted unit. That rare circumstance did not make up for the built in cost that you were paying and never getting to use most of the time.
I’m also interested in Rites of Reanimation. Curious if this is a +1 to RP or if it’s a new way to bring back dead dudes in your command phase or something.
Tiberius501 wrote: I’m also interested in Rites of Reanimation. Curious if this is a +1 to RP or if it’s a new way to bring back dead dudes in your command phase or something.
+1 to Reanimation is the cryptek ability, and Szarekh isn't a cryptek.
Re: the aggressor debate, while they are certainly close to the perfect matchup to warriors anything that shoots or fights twice is gonna be pretty upset when Necrons get back up between attack resolutions.
I have a feeling everybody here plays against fluff players, noobs or really weak armies. I´ve had multiple times were my 20 warriors were shot down in 1 turn.
And even if they used 3 times the points then my warriors it's still frustrating if it happens on first turn, you still lost 240 points of shooting, or holding obj.
And yes i use terrain, but they can still move to see you, there are a lot of MW dealing stuff so no save against that and there are like lots of armies who can use a shoot again strata (necrons should get that to)
And T5 is fun, but 1k sons and nids have lots of S5+ weapons.
I'm not a fan of the new RP rules, but i think we should wait for the codex to really know if its a nerf or not.
They should have just made it a fnp again... ist that better?
Krull wrote: I have a feeling everybody here plays against fluff players, noobs or really weak armies. I´ve had multiple times were my 20 warriors were shot down in 1 turn.
And even if they used 3 times the points then my warriors it's still frustrating if it happens on first turn, you still lost 240 points of shooting, or holding obj.
And yes i use terrain, but they can still move to see you, there are a lot of MW dealing stuff so no save against that and there are like lots of armies who can use a shoot again strata (necrons should get that to)
And T5 is fun, but 1k sons and nids have lots of S5+ weapons.
I'm not a fan of the new RP rules, but i think we should wait for the codex to really know if its a nerf or not.
They should have just made it a fnp again... ist that better?
Not, necessarily. If the warriors are being shot by 2+ dmg weapons, you’re only having to roll 1 dice per warrior to get them back up, as opposed to FnP where you’d be rolling 2+ dice and needing them all to succeed for them to live. It gets worse than FnP, I think, when you get 3+ wound models dying and it becomes the opposite way around.
We haven’t seen though some of the other rules which might help out higher wound models. Rites of Reanimation, for example, could be a way to bring back models who haven’t come back from RP.
Tiberius501 wrote:I’m also interested in Rites of Reanimation. Curious if this is a +1 to RP or if it’s a new way to bring back dead dudes in your command phase or something.
I suspect it might be some sort of healing mechanic, similar to some abilities in AoS that allow you to resurrect a certain number of dead models in the Command Phase. If that is the case it's another piece of the puzzle affecting Necron durability, especially for multi-wound models which are hurt pretty hard by the new RP rules.
Krull wrote:I have a feeling everybody here plays against fluff players, noobs or really weak armies. I´ve had multiple times were my 20 warriors were shot down in 1 turn.
At the moment that's certainly the case but the new RP mechanic makes it more difficult to kill any units of 1-Wound models. It's trivial to direct enough firepower at a unit to kill it in most 40k games so whether you have 20 Necron Warriors or 30 Boyz, you're probably going to lose them if your opponent wants to kill them. The new RP rules make that much harder, especially on Warriors because you actually need to wipe the unit out with a single unit's shooting to prevent RP. Even leaving 1 Warrior out of 20 alive means you're likely facing anywhere between 8-12 when your next unit shoots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberius501 wrote: So are we disappointed about the Necrons so far? It seems a lot are disappointed with protocols, and Reanimation seems like it’s great for warriors but has gotten a nerf to big things.
I'm solidly on the fence right now. A lot of it will come down to points, especially for the multi-wound units. If those are still priced as if they actually get any benefit from RP they could be pretty useless. The Protocols rules annoy me quite a bit. There are so many hoops to jump through and conditions to meet compared to, say, Doctrines, that it feels like the bonuses they provide aren't really worth it a lot of the time. I like that GW is being a bit more creative with its special rules as opposed to just handing out re-roll 1s everywhere but the Necron approach seems really convoluted for no real reason.
I know we may see changes to Doctrines and the way other army's special rules operate but the problem with that is GW hasn't revealed it yet, and in the case of non-SM armies those changes won't be coming for a while so taking the "wait and see" approach is going to be very annoying for the foreseeable future.
Krull wrote: I have a feeling everybody here plays against fluff players, noobs or really weak armies. I´ve had multiple times were my 20 warriors were shot down in 1 turn.
And even if they used 3 times the points then my warriors it's still frustrating if it happens on first turn, you still lost 240 points of shooting, or holding obj.
And yes i use terrain, but they can still move to see you, there are a lot of MW dealing stuff so no save against that and there are like lots of armies who can use a shoot again strata (necrons should get that to)
And T5 is fun, but 1k sons and nids have lots of S5+ weapons.
I'm not a fan of the new RP rules, but i think we should wait for the codex to really know if its a nerf or not.
They should have just made it a fnp again... ist that better?
Killing 20 warriors in one turn was quite easy. Did you even read the new RP ? You get to make RP rolls after the attacking unit makes its attacks. If you have a cryptek nearby killed warriors get up on 4+(unless this changes in the new codex), and reroll 1s. If you have a ghost ark you can roll again for RP (unless this changes in the new codex). You do this every time after an enemy unit makes it attacks. Its now much harder to wipe out a unit of 20 warriors.
Eihnlazer wrote: I def think ghost arks are gonna make a comeback.
2 ghost arks with warriors inside, 3 squads of immortals, a CCB, the deceiver, the void dragon, one big squad of warriors for backfield, one squad of shooty destroyers seems like a good 9th list.
Not sure what the points is on that atm, but its got early game mobility, a durable backfield unit and some midfield threat.
Well, I still like the idea of using Doom Scythes and eventually Annihilation Barges.
Xyxel wrote: Warriors with gauss reapers. How do they shoot with Sautekh dynasty rules?
- 2 shoots within 18"
or 2 shoots within 18" and 4 shoots within 7" ?
2 shots within 14” for reapers. It’s rapid fire up to 18” instead of half range, not that it extends the base range of the weapon. I think it needs a little FAQ just to clarify but I’d say that’s how it works.
Xyxel wrote: Warriors with gauss reapers. How do they shoot with Sautekh dynasty rules?
- 2 shoots within 18"
or 2 shoots within 18" and 4 shoots within 7" ?
2 shots within 14” for reapers. It’s rapid fire up to 18” instead of half range, not that it extends the base range of the weapon. I think it needs a little FAQ just to clarify but I’d say that’s how it works.
The codex is not yet out and we already need FAQs.
Krull wrote: I have a feeling everybody here plays against fluff players, noobs or really weak armies. I´ve had multiple times were my 20 warriors were shot down in 1 turn.
And even if they used 3 times the points then my warriors it's still frustrating if it happens on first turn, you still lost 240 points of shooting, or holding obj.
And yes i use terrain, but they can still move to see you, there are a lot of MW dealing stuff so no save against that and there are like lots of armies who can use a shoot again strata (necrons should get that to)
And T5 is fun, but 1k sons and nids have lots of S5+ weapons.
I'm not a fan of the new RP rules, but i think we should wait for the codex to really know if its a nerf or not.
They should have just made it a fnp again... ist that better?
Killing 20 warriors in one turn was quite easy. Did you even read the new RP ? You get to make RP rolls after the attacking unit makes its attacks. If you have a cryptek nearby killed warriors get up on 4+(unless this changes in the new codex), and reroll 1s. If you have a ghost ark you can roll again for RP (unless this changes in the new codex). You do this every time after an enemy unit makes it attacks. Its now much harder to wipe out a unit of 20 warriors.
I heard that it is every time enemy attacks you with a weapon, you make the RP roll. And RP roll is only for the models killed by those attacks and the Necron models don't get another chance of RP roll. I.e. if a squad of warriors get shot by a Space Marine Tactical Squad armed with 4 bolter and 1 flamer, the flamer get to shoot first, say killed 2 Warriors, you roll 2D6 and on each 5s you get 1 warrior back up. Then the bolter shots killed say another two warriors, now you only can roll another 2 dice for them, not for all three of those dead guys. And the one that failed the 1st roll of RP will never come back.
It's basically a worse 5+Fnp.....
Krull wrote: I have a feeling everybody here plays against fluff players, noobs or really weak armies. I´ve had multiple times were my 20 warriors were shot down in 1 turn.
And even if they used 3 times the points then my warriors it's still frustrating if it happens on first turn, you still lost 240 points of shooting, or holding obj.
And yes i use terrain, but they can still move to see you, there are a lot of MW dealing stuff so no save against that and there are like lots of armies who can use a shoot again strata (necrons should get that to)
And T5 is fun, but 1k sons and nids have lots of S5+ weapons.
I'm not a fan of the new RP rules, but i think we should wait for the codex to really know if its a nerf or not.
They should have just made it a fnp again... ist that better?
Killing 20 warriors in one turn was quite easy. Did you even read the new RP ? You get to make RP rolls after the attacking unit makes its attacks. If you have a cryptek nearby killed warriors get up on 4+(unless this changes in the new codex), and reroll 1s. If you have a ghost ark you can roll again for RP (unless this changes in the new codex). You do this every time after an enemy unit makes it attacks. Its now much harder to wipe out a unit of 20 warriors.
I heard that it is every time enemy attacks you with a weapon, you make the RP roll. And RP roll is only for the models killed by those attacks and the Necron models don't get another chance of RP roll. I.e. if a squad of warriors get shot by a Space Marine Tactical Squad armed with 4 bolter and 1 flamer, the flamer get to shoot first, say killed 2 Warriors, you roll 2D6 and on each 5s you get 1 warrior back up. Then the bolter shots killed say another two warriors, now you only can roll another 2 dice for them, not for all three of those dead guys. And the one that failed the 1st roll of RP will never come back.
It's basically a worse 5+Fnp.....
No. The opponent rolls ALL weapon attacks against a unit and then if you have surviving models you roll the dice and bring dudes back. It is also better on 1W models than FnP, because you’re only rolling 1 die per duder, even for multi-dmg weapons. Whereas FnP would require the dmg worth of dice to all succeed to save a dude.
Xyxel wrote: Warriors with gauss reapers. How do they shoot with Sautekh dynasty rules?
- 2 shoots within 18"
or 2 shoots within 18" and 4 shoots within 7" ?
2 shots within 14” for reapers. It’s rapid fire up to 18” instead of half range, not that it extends the base range of the weapon. I think it needs a little FAQ just to clarify but I’d say that’s how it works.
The codex is not yet out and we already need FAQs.
No, we dont. Sautekh say rapid fire weapons make double attacks when the target is within 18". This doesnt extend weapon range, it stays 14". So its always 2 shots.
people scream "we need a faq" anytime theres even the slightest possible issue in the rules.
Nowhere does it say it increases the range of the gun, only that rapidfire triggers at 18" instead of half. If that is further than the weapon's reach in the first place, you cant even attempt to attack because checking for rapidfire happens after you declare a target, and you cant declare if theyre not within your range.
That argument is right up there with people thinking RP happens like it did before where you keep rolling for missing models since theres no explicit, exact wording on failed to reanimate models are "leaving the reassembling state" - i technically see what theyre getting at, but it would also be MEGA FRAKING BROKEN if that was intended to allow all 11 missing warriors to potentially stand up every time a single heavybolter fired at them and not just the ones that got recently kiled
I think there's just a lot of people rushing reading the rules online and posting before engaging their brain. We had it with the reanimation protocols with loads of really simple questions. Give it a few weeks to die down and for people to read and comprehend and then start to see where the questions really are.
So the new Silent King will provide good buffs for Praetorians, but when would you ever keep them near SK? Aren't they a skirmish kind of unit, so surely the buff is pretty wasted on them
I sure hope the silent king will get a bit more killiness then just 2 big shots and his own 3 shots.
It´s great against monsters and tanks but agains an elite army you just overkilled 5 models...
They say 2D weapons is great for killing marines but that´s only 3 dead marines... thats not a lot for probably a 380+ points model
Let´s hope the ctan can do stuff to.
The buffs are good but not awesome either.
Silent king and void dragon will be a big point sink in just 2 models.
I don´t think i would bring those 2 together. Still need a couple more unit for objectives and such.
And it´s still the same that we have to bring maxed units so nr pf units is limited
So. With tesla confirmed unmodified 6's are people now going to use gauss? Or even use immortals to actually damage dealing rather than screen/objective holding/actions?
With the amount of Dense terrain I often see the Tesla change isn't as much of a nerf as it seems. When combined with the 30" range of Gauss for Immortals I think it does make the two weapons much more even. I think a mix of the two will be fine as Tesla is still pretty good at dealing with hordes and gets the 2 shots at any range, while the Blasters are very potent within 15".
Krull wrote: Silent king and void dragon will be a big point sink in just 2 models.
I don´t think i would bring those 2 together. Still need a couple more unit for objectives and such.
And it´s still the same that we have to bring maxed units so nr pf units is limited
E.g., Silent King will definitely die too easily and will certainly not enter any of my competitive lists.
Krull wrote: Silent king and void dragon will be a big point sink in just 2 models.
I don´t think i would bring those 2 together. Still need a couple more unit for objectives and such.
And it´s still the same that we have to bring maxed units so nr pf units is limited
E.g., Silent King will definitely die too easily and will certainly not enter any of my competitive lists.
He might. Do you have his full rules? You are making quite absolute statement otherwise.
Krull wrote: I sure hope the silent king will get a bit more killiness then just 2 big shots and his own 3 shots.
It´s great against monsters and tanks but agains an elite army you just overkilled 5 models...
They say 2D weapons is great for killing marines but that´s only 3 dead marines... thats not a lot for probably a 380+ points model
Let´s hope the ctan can do stuff to.
The buffs are good but not awesome either.
I suspect he will get C'tan powers as well, so he is probably pumping out some extra mortal wounds.
That one strata on whc does imply that rites of resurection does what RP does now. Resurect dead necrons.
Doing it twice can be very good!
Hopefully this way we can resurect our 3W models more easily.
I suspect the barge has the RoR rule.
If an overlord is not a phaeron, who is except silent king and imotec?
they still havnt straight up said what RoR does but they made it sound like it gives us a "current RP rules attempt" - which unless it also gives a boost to multiwound models it still wont help them that much but man it will make warrior/immortals annoying lol
Krull wrote: That one strata on whc does imply that rites of resurection does what RP does now. Resurect dead necrons.
Doing it twice can be very good!
Hopefully this way we can resurect our 3W models more easily.
I suspect the barge has the RoR rule.
If an overlord is not a phaeron, who is except silent king and imotec?
Anrakyr is a Phaeron in the lore, but the Phyrrian Dynasty never necieved rules.
TBH, he started doing the Silent Kings work, so he honestly might get the Szarekhan keyword..... that might sell me on the Szarekhan dynasty
From a discord group:
“As you may be aware (or not), some people received the new Codex early. In my local gaming group, someone did receive the new Codex Necrons early. He gave me a couple of informations and I thought it would be nice to share it here :
Quantic Shield : is now a 5+ invulnerable save and on top of that, you ignore unmodified wound roll of 1/2/3.
Doomstalker : has a 4+ invulnerable save. It can overwatch à la T'au, which means he get to shoot at ennemy units which charged a friendly unit within 6" of the Doomstalker. He can fire at it with the "big profile" of its weapon (forgot its name). Does not have QS.
Canoptek units : they now all have RP.
Rites of Reanimation : each Necron unit can only be targeted once by Rites of Reanimation. Select a Necron unit : D3 Necron Warriors are revived or 1 model if it's not a Necron Warriors unit.
Monolith is 380 points with 4 "mini Death Rays". Silent King is 450 and Ctan of the Void Dragon is 350.
Don't know anything else, sorry. He wants to keep it "as a surprise" for our next game
From a discord group:
“As you may be aware (or not), some people received the new Codex early. In my local gaming group, someone did receive the new Codex Necrons early. He gave me a couple of informations and I thought it would be nice to share it here :
Quantic Shield : is now a 5+ invulnerable save and on top of that, you ignore unmodified wound roll of 1/2/3.
Doomstalker : has a 4+ invulnerable save. It can overwatch à la T'au, which means he get to shoot at ennemy units which charged a friendly unit within 6" of the Doomstalker. He can fire at it with the "big profile" of its weapon (forgot its name). Does not have QS.
Canoptek units : they now all have RP.
Rites of Reanimation : each Necron unit can only be targeted once by Rites of Reanimation. Select a Necron unit : D3 Necron Warriors are revived or 1 model if it's not a Necron Warriors unit.
Monolith is 380 points with 4 "mini Death Rays". Silent King is 450 and Ctan of the Void Dragon is 350.
Don't know anything else, sorry. He wants to keep it "as a surprise" for our next game
there are scans of the french codex on discord that proves all this true
I love the idea of Radiation Halo. Hey, we are immune to radiation, let's irradiate ourselves and use it to kill our enemies.
Royal Court:
• If the silent king is in your army, he must be the warlord.
• If not, if you have a Phaeron, he must be your warlord
• If not, if you have a “Tetraque” he must be your warlord
• If not, if you have a Dynasty character, he must be your warlord
• If not, choose warlord normally
Dynastic Agents and Star Gods
• Dynastic Agents and C’tan shards can be included in necron detachments without preventing them from getting dynastic codes
• Dynastic Agents and C’tan shards Never get dynastic codes
Custom Dynasties:
• Pick a dynastic tradition and a condition of awakening
• If picked Royal Vassal, do not get condition of awakening
Dynastic Conditions:
o Eternal conquerors:
All models with this code have OBSEC.
If a model already had OBSEC, they count as one additional model
o Ruthless hunters
Essentially bolter drill
Can rapid fire at max range if infantry model stood still
o Majestic artisans
Each time this unit is chosen to shoot or fight re-roll one wound roll per unit
o Radiation halo
All units have the following aura: as long as an enemy unit is within 1 inch of this unit, subtract 1 from its Toughness
o Immovable Phalanx
Whenever an attack with a wound characteristic of 1 is allocated to an infantry model with this code, and that model did not move, advance or fall back this battle round, add 1 to any armor save against the attack
o Inflexible
6+ invuln
o Disdain for the codes
Add one to hit rolls for attacks made against characters
o Ruthless horde
Re-roll morale tests
o Martial masters
Each time this unit is chosen to shoot or fight re-roll one hit roll per unit
o Butchers
Add 1 to charge rolls
o Brocken
Units benefit from command protocols if they are within 9 inches of a necron character instead of 6
o Royal Vassal
Get to pick one of the normal dynastic codes
Condition of Awakening:
o The ancients stir
Add one to Canoptek units
Canoptik units Can pile in and consolidate 4 inches
o Fight the intruders
Melee attacks against infantry or bikers auto-wound on unmodified hit rolls of 6.
o Saine paranoia
Add 3 inches to the range of pistols
o Implacable expansionist
At the beginning of the first battle round and before starting the first turn, all units with this code can move 6 inches
o Isolationists
Each time a model makes an attack with a rapid-fire weapon against a target within 12 inches, at one to the strength of the attack
o Noble warriors
Each time a noble makes a melee attack, reroll all hit and wound rolls of 1
o Interplanetary invaders
Vehicles can fall-back and shoot at -1 to hit.
Vehicles can shoot heavy weapons into combat without the normal -1 penalty
1 CP Autowound on 1 Necron ranged attack
2 CP Reroll wound rolls for Destroyer Lokhust and Heavy Lokhust Destroyer
2 CP Attack twice with Flayed Ones
1 CP Tomb Blades unit in the shooting phase considers his Rapid Fire weapons as Assault 2 AND can Run and Advance and shoot Assault weapons without penalties
1 CP Triarch unit adds +1 to Hit to shooting/melee attacks in that phase.
1 CP Lychguards unit within 3" of as NOBLE model gets +1 to its attacks
1 CP Resurrect one INFANTRY/NOBLE/CRYPTER model on a 4+ with D3 wounds. One use only per character
1 CP Replace one of your Powers of the C'tan with one of your choice
1 CP A Technomancer can use Rites of Reanimation again this phase
2 CP/1CP A C'TAN can randomly cast another Power of the C'tans, TITANIC models pay 2 CP instead of 1 CP for this.
2 CP C'TAN units ignore Invulnerable saves in melee
1 CP Additional Relic
2 CP Overlord gains PHAERON keyword and can use My will be done a second time. One use only
1 CP Additional Warlord Trait for another char that isn't a C'TAN
1 CP Canoptek unit can Heroic Intervene
2 CP/1CP NECRON VEHICLE is considered at max hp for its damage table, cost 2 CP if the VEHICLE is TITANIC
2 CP During the enemy Shooting phase when a Necron unit that is visible and within 6" of a CANOPTEK REANIMATOR and is also the target of a shooting attack: that model can use its Nano-Scarab Reanimation Beam as if it were your Command Phase
1 CP DESTROYER OPHIDIAN unit goes back to Reserves for next turn Deep Strike
1 CP CANOPTEK SCARAB SWARMS can self destruct for D3 MW on 2+ or 3 MW on a 6
1 CP CORE Unit in Strategic Reserve can be placed wholly within 3" of a MONOLITH or NIGHT SCYTHE. Can't be used during the first Battle Round
1 CP FLAYED ONES that were targeted during a phase gets -1 to wound
1 CP DEATHMARKS unit that was on the table or in the SPECIAL NECRON DIMENSION can enter the game during the enemy's Reinforcement phase in the Movement phase and be put within 18" of an enemy's unit that arrived that turn and more than 9" from any enemy's unit. The unit can also shoot that unit as if it were your Shooting phase but it must target the enemy's unit that arrived from Reserve that turn.
1 CP CORE INFANTRY unit that shoots with a Rapid Fire weapons and hits on unmodified 6s adds one additional hit on the target
3 CP/1CP A NECRON VEHICLE of yours automatically explodes. It costs 3 CP if the VEHICLE is also TITANIC
1 CP A DOOM SCYTHE model that is selected to shoot in the Shooting phase with Death Ray. Before rolling to hit select one enemy unit within 3" of your target and choose if the enemy unit within 3" that isn't VEHICLE/MONSTER gets D3 MW or -1 attacks, no OW and no benefits from DEFENSIBLE terrain actions
2 CP After one of your CHARACTER unit dies in a phase you can choose a CANOPTEK DOOMSTALKER unit to shoot at the end of the phase as if it were your Shooting Phase and until the end of the battle that CANOPTEK DOOMSTALKER unit gets -1 to hit
1 CP CORE NECRON unit in the Fight Phase gets +1 Strenght
1 CP NECRON unit in your Shooting phase that hits on an unmodified 6s with a Gauss weapon autowounds his targets
1 After a NECRON model selects a target to shoot with his Tesla weapon, after having made all of its attacks roll a D6 for each enemy unit within 6" of the initial target: on a 4+ that enemy units suffers 1 MW 1 CP Use when a DESTROYER SKORPEKHS or SKORPEKH LORD unit is chosen as the target of an attack: for the remainder of the phase that unit gets -1 to wound
1 CP Use when a QUANTUM SHIELDING NECRON unit from your army is chosen as the target of an attack: until the end of the phase that units gets a 4++
1 CP Use in your shooting phase and select one enemy unit: until the end of the phase any NECRON unit that targets that unit ignores the benefits of the cover
1 CP Choose a GHOST ARK unit in your army during the Command Phase: until the end of the phase you can repair D6 models instead of D3
MEPHRIT 1 CP MEPHRIT Unit deals 1 additional MW on unmodified 6s to wound to a maximum of 3 MW with this stratagem
NEPHREKH 1 CP Use this stratagem during the battle when you declare your reserves and transports: choose a single NEPHREKH unit that isn't VEHICLE/MONSTER and give it the Dynastic Code "Dimensional Translocation"
NIHILAKH 1 CP NIHILAKH INFANTRY can shoot and do an action at the same time
NOVOKH 1 CP Adds +1 attacks to any NOVOKH unit in the Fight Phase
SAUTEKH 2 CP Choose an enemy unit after that was targeted by a SAUTEKH unit in your army: ranged attacks against that unit are given +1 to hit
SZAREKH 1 CP When an enemy unit is attempting to manifest a Psychic Power within 18" of a SZAREKH unit: before the power is attempted you can deny it on a 4+
1 CP CORE INFANTRY unit that shoots with a Rapid Fire weapons and hits on unmodified 6s adds one additional hit on the target
3 CP/1CP A NECRON VEHICLE of yours automatically explodes. It costs 3 CP if the VEHICLE is also TITANIC
1 CP A DOOM SCYTHE model that is selected to shoot in the Shooting phase with Death Ray. Before rolling to hit select one enemy unit within 3" of your target and choose if the enemy unit within 3" that isn't VEHICLE/MONSTER gets D3 MW or -1 attacks, no OW and no benefits from DEFENSIBLE terrain actions
2 CP After one of your CHARACTER unit dies in a phase you can choose a CANOPTEK DOOMSTALKER unit to shoot at the end of the phase as if it were your Shooting Phase and until the end of the battle that CANOPTEK DOOMSTALKER unit gets -1 to hit
1 CP CORE NECRON unit in the Fight Phase gets +1 Strenght
1 CP NECRON unit in your Shooting phase that hits on an unmodified 6s with a Gauss weapon autowounds his targets
1 After a NECRON model selects a target to shoot with his Tesla weapon, after having made all of its attacks roll a D6 for each enemy unit within 6" of the initial target: on a 4+ that enemy units suffers 1 MW 1 CP Use when a DESTROYER SKORPEKHS or SKORPEKH LORD unit with a Warscythe is chosen as the target of an attack: for the remainder of the phase that unit gets -1 to wound
1 CP Use when a QUANTUM SHIELDING NECRON unit from your army is chosen as the target of an attack: until the end of the phase that units gets a 4++
1 CP Use in your shooting phase and select one enemy unit: until the end of the phase any NECRON unit that targets that unit ignores the benefits of the cover
1 CP Choose a GHOST ARK unit in your army during the Command Phase: until the end of the phase you can repair D6 models instead of D3
MEPHRIT 1 CP MEPHRIT Unit deals 1 additional MW on unmodified 6s to wound to a maximum of 3 MW with this stratagem
NEPHREKH 1 CP Use this stratagem during the battle when you declare your reserves and transports: choose a single NEPHREKH unit that isn't VEHICLE/MONSTER and give it the Dynastic Code "Dimensional Translocation"
NIHILAKH 1 CP NIHILAKH INFANTRY can shoot and do an action at the same time
NOVOKH 1 CP Adds +1 attacks to any NOVOKH unit in the Fight Phase
SAUTEKH 2 CP Choose an enemy unit after that was targeted by a SAUTEKH unit in your army: ranged attacks against that unit are given +1 to hit
SZAREKH 1 CP When an enemy unit is attempting to manifest a Psychic Power within 18" of a SZAREKH unit: before the power is attempted you can deny it on a 4+
2 CP After one of your CHARACTER unit dies in a phase you can choose a CANOPTEK WRAITH unit to shoot at the end of the phase as if it were your Shooting Phase and until the end of the battle that CANOPTEK WRAITH unit gets -1 to hit
Prismatic Dimensional Breach
1
Use this stategem at the end of your movement phase, select a <DYNASTY> CORE> unit from strategic reserves, then choose a friendly <DYNASTY> MONOLITH or NIGHT SCYTHE, place the chosen CORE unit anywhere wholly within 3” and outside engagement range of any enemy models. This cannot be used during the first battle round
This seems ridiculously good. End of movement phase so a Night Sythe can put a unit anywhere not within 1" of enemies. Too good to be true.
2 CP After one of your CHARACTER unit dies in a phase you can choose a CANOPTEK WRAITH unit to shoot at the end of the phase as if it were your Shooting Phase and until the end of the battle that CANOPTEK WRAITH unit gets -1 to hit
Pardon?
The general discussion copy paste says Doomstalker, which makes a lot more sense.
HEre's a big dump, apologies if anything is repeated.
Name
CP Ability
Dimensional Corridor
1
Select a CORE <DYNASTY> unit, remove it from the battlefield and place it wholly within 3” of a MONOLITH and more than 9” away from enemy models
Techno Ocular Aiming
1
Use in the shooting phase, one wound automatically wounds
Extermination Protocols
2
Use in the shooting phase select a unit of LOKHURST DESTROYERS or heavy LOKHURST DESTROYERS, re roll all wound rolls for this unit this phase
Blade Tornado
2
Use at the end of the combat phase, one unit of FLAYED ONES can fight again
Fractal Aim
1
Use in the shooting phase, select a TOMB BLADE unit, that unit treats all rapid fire weapons as assault 2 and can advance and shoot without penalty
Eternal Protectors
1
Use in the fight phase, select a <DYNASTY> unit, as long as it is within 3” of a DYNASTY NOBLE, add 1 to models attack characteristic
Resurrection Protocols
1
Use this stratagem when a NOBLE or CRYPTEK INFANTRY unit dies, roll a D6, on a 4+ put the model back as close as possible to where it died, this effect cannot be used with any other ability that triggers on this models death. Can only be used once per game
Strange Echos
1
Use in your command phase, select a C’TAN SHARD unit from your army, replace one of its C’tan powers with a new power
The Undying rise
1
Use in the command phase, select a TECHNOMANCER, that unit can use its rites of reanimation one additional time this phase
Dimensional Instability
2/1
Use at the end of your movement phase when a C’TAN SHARD uses a C’tan power, roll a D6 on the C’tan power table, you may cast the corresponding C’tan power even if it has already been cast this turn, this stratagem costs 2CP for TITANIC units
Entropic Strike
1
Use in the fight phase when a C’TAN SHARD is chosen to fight, this unit ignores invulnerable saves until the end of the phase
Dynastic Heritage
1
Use before the battle as long as your warlord is a NECRON. Choose a NECRON CHARCTER (execpt C’TAN SHARDS), the chosen model gains a relic, this stratagem can be used once, or twice in a strike force mission
Hand of the Phareon
2
Not sure
Rare Nobility
1
Use before the battle as long as your warlord is a NECRON. Choose a NECRON CHARCTER(execpt C’TAN SHARDS), the chosen model gains a warlord trait, this stratagem can be used once, or twice in a strike force mission
Enslaved protectors
1
Select a CANOPTEKunit, until your next command phase this unit can heroicly intervene as if it were a character
Stellar Allignment Protocol
2/1
Use in the command phase, select a NECRON VEHICLE with 10 or more wounds, this unit counts as being on its top profile until your next command phase, this costs 2CP on a TITANIC unit
Priority Reanimation
2
Use this stratagem in the enemy’s shooting phase when a friendly NECRON unit is chosen as the target of an attack. Select a CANOPTEK REANIMATOR within 6” of the targeted unit. That unit can use its nano-scarab reanimation beams as if where your command phase, the unit previously affected by the beam isnt affected anymore
Burrowing nightmares
1
Use at the start of your movement hase, select an OPHYDSIAN DESTROYER unit, remove this unit from the battlefield and place it in reinforcements. At the start of your next movement phase this unit can be setup anywhere on the battlefield more than 9” away from an enemy models
Self Destruction
1
Use in the fight phase, select a CANOPTEK SCARD SWARM unit that has been selected to fight. Select one model in the unit after it has finished piling in, select an enemy unit within engagement range of that model and roll a D6, on a 2-5 the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds, on a 6 it suffers 3 mortal wounds, remove the CANOPTEK SCARB SWARM model from the gamel
Prismatic Dimensional Breach
1
Use this stratagem at the end of your movement phase, select a <DYNASTY> CORE> unit from strategic reserves, then choose a friendly <DYNASTY> MONOLITH or NIGHT SCYTHE, place the chosen CORE unit anywhere wholly within 3” and outside engagement range of any enemy models. This cannot be used during the first battle round
Shadows of Drazakh
1
Use this trategem in any phase where a friendly FLAYED ONES unit is chosen as the target of an attack, until the end of the phase subtract one from any hit rolls that target the unit
Aetheral Inception
1
Not sure
Relentless onslaught
1
Use during your shooting phase when a CORE INFANTRY unit is chosen to shoot. Until the end of the phase rapid fire weapons cause an additional hit on each on each unmodified hit roll of a six
Phareon Curse
3/1
Use this stratagem when a friendly NECRON VEHICLEis destroyed, this unit automatically explodes, if it is a titanic unit this costs 3CP
Atavic Instigation
1
Not sure
Doomstalker’s revenge
2
Use in any phase, when a friendly CHARACTER <DYNASTY> unit is destroyed by an enemy unit, select a <DYNASTY> CANOPTEK DOOMSTALKER from your army, that unit may shoot at the end of this phase at the unit that destroyed the CHARACTER and for the rest of the game gains plus one to hit against the enemy unit
Disruptive fields
1
Uwe this stratagem in the fight phase when a NECRON CORE unit is chosen to fight, add one strength to the strength characteristic of models in the chosen unit
Disintegration Capacitors
1
Use in your shooting phase when a NECRON unit is chosen to shoot, gauss weapons in the unit automatically wound the target on unmodified hit rolls of 6
Malevolent arcing
1
Use in you shooting phase when a friendly NECRON unit fires a tesla weapon, after making that weapons attack rolls, roll a D6 for each other unit within 6”, on a 4+ the unit suffers 1 mortal wound
Whirling Assault
1
Use when a SKORPECH DESTROYER or SKORPECH LORD unit is chosen as the target of an attack, until the end of the phase subtract 1 from hit rolls that target this unit
Quantic Deflection
1
Use when a unit with quantum shielding is targeted, until the end of the phase that units models have a 4+ invulnerable save
Solar Impulse
1
Use in your shooting phase, select an enemy unit, that unit does not receive the benefits of cover
Reconstitution Protocols
1
Use in the command phase, select a GHOST ARK unit from your army, when this unit uses its repair barge ability you can bring back D6 models instead of D3
The Deathless Arise
1
Use in your command phase, select one TECHNOMANCER model from your army, until the end of the phas ethat model can use it srites of reanimation one additional time
Mephrit
1
Use in the shooting phase when a MEPHRIT unit from your army is selected to shoot, until the end of the phase each time a model makes an attack an unmodified hit roll of 6 generates a mortal wound in addition to any other damage(Max 3 mortal wounds per phase)
Nephrekh
1
Use before the battle when declaring reserves, choose a nephrekh unit except for VEHICLES or MONSTER, that unit gains the translocation beam ability
Nihilakh
1
Use in the shooting phase, choose a NIHILAKH INFANTRY unit that is completing an action, that unit may shoot without failing the action
Sautekh
2
Use in the shooting phase after a SAUTEKH unit finishes its attack, choose an enemy unit that was targeted by the SAUTEKH unit, until the end of phase other SAUTEKH units add one to hit rolls against the chosen enemy unit
Szarekhan
1
Use in the psychic phase after and enemy PSYKER tries to manifest a psychic power within 18” of a SZAREKHAN unit, roll a D6 on a 4+ it gets denied
Novokh
1
Use in the fight phase, when a NOVOKH unit is chosen to fight add 1 to models in the units attack characteristic
C’tan powers
Power of the C’tan
<old rules to distribute them cannot choose twice unless all are picked>
Power of the C’tan
1 - Antimatter Meteor
Roll D6, add 1 if Tesseract Vault, 3-5 : Closest visible enemy unit within 24” suffers 3 MW. 6+, the unit suffers D3+3 MW instead.
2 - Time’s Arrow
Pick a visible enemy unit within 18”, Roll D6 adding 1 if Tesseract Vault, If the result is is superior or equal to of the wound characteristic of one or more models from the ennemy unit, your opponent choose one of these model to be destroyed.
3 - Sky of Falling Stars
Pick up to three enemy units within 24”. Roll D6 for each : on 2-5, if the result is less than the number of models in that unit, the unit suffers D3 MW. If Tesseract Vault, the unit suffers 3MW instead.
4 - Cosmic Fire
Roll a D6 for each enemy unit within 9” : On a 4+ the unit suffers D3 MW. If Tesseract Vault, units suffers 3 MW instead.
5 - Seismic Assault
Pick a visible enemy unit within 18”. Roll a D6 for each model in that unit, adding 1 if Tesseract Vault, for each result of 6+ that unit suffers 1 MW (maximum 10)
6 - Transdimensional Thunderbolt
Pick visible enemy unit within 24” (characters with a wound characteristic of 9 or less cannot be picked while they are within 3” of another enemy unit or is the character is the closest visible enemy model).
Roll D6 : on a 2+, the unit suffer D3 MW. Then roll a D6 for every other enemy unit within 3” of the chosen enemy unit. On a 4+, the unit being rolled for suffers 1 MW. If Tesseract Vault, roll for each other enemy unit within 6” instead of 3”.
Unique C’tan Powers
Deceiver - Cosmic Madness
Pick an enemy unit within 12”. Roll a D6 and add this C’tan Shard leadership to the result. Your opponent roll a D6 and add the leadership of the chosen unit to the result. Enemy unit suffers 1 MW for each point of difference between the two scores.
Nightbringer - Gaze of Death
Pick a visible enemy unit within 9”. Roll 3D6 : for each 4+ the unit suffers D3 MW.
Void Dragon - Voltaïc Tempest
Pick a visible enemy unit within 18” (characters with a wound characteristic of 9 or less cannot be picked while they are within 3” of another enemy unit or is the character is the closest visible enemy model).
Roll D6 : on a 2+, the unit suffers D3 MW (it suffers D6MW instead if it has the vehicle keyword) and, until your next turn, if the unit is a vehicle with a degrading profile, divide by half its current wounds to determine which profile it use.
Warlord Traits:
Mephrit : +1 attack and +1 strength (warlord)
Nephrekh : -1 to hit the warlord
Nihilakh : At the start of the combat phase, if this warlord is in range of an enemy unit, he can fight first in this phase
Novokh : Each time the warlord makes a melee attack, an unmodified wound roll of 6 deal one additional mortal wound.
Sautekh : As long as this warlord is one the battlefield, when you use one CP to use a stratagem, roll a D6. On 5+, you get the CP refunded.
Szarekhan : When you assign command protocols, you can chose 4 of them instead of 5, and one of those 4 can be assigned to two rounds instead of one.
Necron Secondaries
No Respite
Code of Combat
End game scoring
Score 3VP at the end of the battle for each enemy unit destroyed by a NECRON NOBLE from your army
Supremacy
Purge the Vermin (?)
Progressive scoring
Score two VP at the end of your turn for each table quarter without enemy unit wholly within (excluding AIRCRAFT).
This objective cannot be scored during the first round of battle.
Eons Treasures
Progressive Scoring
If you picked this secondary objective, after both armies are deployed, your opponent pick 3 objective markers on the battlefield.
Score a number of VP a the end of your turn if you control one or more of theses objectives markers :
Number of objective markers you control
VP scored
1
2
2
3
3
5
Shadow Operation
Ancient Machine
Progressive Scoring
If you picked this secondary objective, after both armies are deployed, starting with your opponent, players alternately pick an objective marker not in either deployment zone to be the Ancient Machine objective markers, until 3 objective markers are picked. (If there is only one objective marker that meet these criteria, only this objective marker is an Ancient Machine objective marker).
CORE NECRON or CANOPTEK units from your army can realise the following action :
Awake an Ancient Machine (Action) : At the end of your movement phase, one or more CORE or CANOPTEK NECRON unit from your army can try to accomplish this action.
Each unit from your army must be in range from a distinct Ancien Machine objective marker.
A unit cannot do this action while there is an enemy unit (AIRCRAFT excluded) in range of this objective marker.
This action is completed at the end of your next Command Phase, provided the unit attempting it is in range of the Ancient Machine objective marker.
Score 3VP each time one unit from your army successfully completes Awake an Ancient Machine action.
Tabletop Titans are doing a Salamanders vs Necrons Battle Report this afternoon (12 Noon PT US) using the NEW Space Marine and Necrons Codeciies.
Everybody in this thread should check it out. If you can't catch it live be sure to view it later. I love the way TT do their batreps and even though I'm not a Necron player I am tempted to become a Necron player.
jivardi wrote: Tabletop Titans are doing a Salamanders vs Necrons Battle Report this afternoon (12 Noon PT US) using the NEW Space Marine and Necrons Codeciies.
Everybody in this thread should check it out. If you can't catch it live be sure to view it later. I love the way TT do their batreps and even though I'm not a Necron player I am tempted to become a Necron player.
Again, 12PM Pacific Time, 2PM Central Time (US)
Could you please provide the link to the video afterwards?
Its time to enter a new phase of the 9th edition - away from theory and towards practicing.
I'd say make it next week when people have codex in their hands. Right now the pages of it would be full of links to leak images and preview videos and people writing out whole chunks because they can't check them in their book etc... Ergo a bit messy and ultimately pointless content until pepole have books in hand.
I'd say make it next week when people have codex in their hands. Right now the pages of it would be full of links to leak images and preview videos and people writing out whole chunks because they can't check them in their book etc... Ergo a bit messy and ultimately pointless content until pepole have books in hand.
Agreed, wait till the codex is out before a thread is started.
Who do not benefit from dynastic traditions and conditions of awakening?
So I might be being a little controversial, but the more I look at the Monolith’s rules the more I actually think it could be a pretty good unit, even with the CP tax. Deepstriking means it’s protected turn 1, it’s anti-tank potential is bonkers with the death rays, and a 2+ save means it has the equivalent of a 5++ against a lot of anti-tank options. It also isn’t even the same cost as an imperial knight.
I do think though against marines it’ll struggle, and plenty of peeps play marines so I guess that kinda contradicts my point... but still!
I want to love you Monolith! Let me love you!
Sasori wrote: let's wait until the Dex releaess, because otherwise the first 20 pages are going to be answering questions about the book.
Also, hope veryone has their Nightbringer ready.
Agreed, and I still have my original metal one. In honor of him being restored to the terrifying God of Death that he is, I might strip him down and give him a repaint
iGuy91 wrote: Can we start a new thread? This one has kind of run its course.
As others said, if we start it now the first pages are all just going to be people confirming what the codex says and showing leaks and such. Far better to start the thread when people actually have the book and we can talk about it rather than having to just confirm what it says all the time.
There is no point in making a thread wait till the codex is out.
The Monolith point value for once is correct! Yes, its a LOW but it is worthy of the title. In the shooting phase, you can have 24 str 5 shots or 4 str 9 shots that do 3+D3 wounds, and because the Particle Whip (D6str 12 -3 3d) is now a blast weapon. It is versatile enough to work with the dakka version or the anti-tank version. I don't think anyone has mentioned this but in close combat it AUTO HITS! Six strength 8 -3 3D attacks in close combat regardless of the damage profile!
Tiberius501 wrote: It’s interesting that C’tan’s can’t benefit from look out sir. Luckily they can at least hide behind obscuring terrain.
It's huge IMO. Even with Necrodermis, NB dies within 2 turns to a determined army with good shooting and good psychic and/or melee. C'tan aren't bad by any means and I'm totally on board with them being big nasty brutes...... however, people are going way overboard in calling the NB overpowered
CKO wrote: There is no point in making a thread wait till the codex is out.
The Monolith point value for once is correct! Yes, its a LOW but it is worthy of the title. In the shooting phase, you can have 24 str 5 shots or 4 str 9 shots that do 3+D3 wounds, and because the Particle Whip (D6str 12 -3 3d) is now a blast weapon. It is versatile enough to work with the dakka version or the anti-tank version. I don't think anyone has mentioned this but in close combat it AUTO HITS! Six strength 8 -3 3D attacks in close combat regardless of the damage profile!
I agree I think this thing is a beast now. The anti-tank variant is brutal against vehicles, and deepstriking keeps it safe for turn 1 too. The -3CP for being LoW is my only gripe, but even then it’s potentially worth it, especially for less points than a Knight.
Tiberius501 wrote: It’s interesting that C’tan’s can’t benefit from look out sir. Luckily they can at least hide behind obscuring terrain.
It's huge IMO. Even with Necrodermis, NB dies within 2 turns to a determined army with good shooting and good psychic and/or melee. C'tan aren't bad by any means and I'm totally on board with them being big nasty brutes...... however, people are going way overboard in calling the NB overpowered
I agree with you but it is one of those units that you can buy and put on the table and not be disappointed with, however at 350 points I got to think about it!
Tiberius501 wrote: It’s interesting that C’tan’s can’t benefit from look out sir. Luckily they can at least hide behind obscuring terrain.
It's huge IMO. Even with Necrodermis, NB dies within 2 turns to a determined army with good shooting and good psychic and/or melee. C'tan aren't bad by any means and I'm totally on board with them being big nasty brutes...... however, people are going way overboard in calling the NB overpowered
I agree. I was pretty much going to auto take the Void Dragon, but this has now made him a choice instead of auto include haha.
Man, dice aside this was not very encouraging for necrons.
Repair protocols is still worthless, I'd argue it's much worse actually since at least previously you got it every turn until wiped and on multi wound models. Now for anything thats more then a single wound it's absolute trash, even on the 2 wound models IMHO.
DDA basically unchanged IMO. So your still riding a roller coaster where you one shot a repulser one game and utterly whiff on a sentinel the next.
Points..... Dear lord, they still apparently over value things that are not good. Apparently telsa needed a point hike despite being nerfed and kind of worthless already do to a lack of AP ehich remains.
Basically take Gauss blaster immortals ans gaus reaper warriors in massive quantities.
Wraiths are cheaper, but garbage since they die to a stiff fart now. So double down on scarabs.
C'tan are finally scary, but apparently they are doubling in cost and can no longer hide? Interessting.
Destroyers were utterly nuked. Still D3 damage on 24" range only now they move 8" and receive no real benefit from RP anymore.
Crypteks are basically reinvented, basically take the new ones or don't bother because technomancers do not seem worth their points.
Honestly it's still early yet, but damn it this doesn't feel great if I am honest. I actually liked the army before despite everyone esles complaints. Something that people need to realize is that GW simply is incapable of adjusting an army properly. They throw everything out and reintroduce entirely new mechanics which is madness. I am sure i will come around to a new play style but it kind of sucks how bland I am bettign the army wants to play now.
My initial bets:
- Single wound Infantry heavy armies
- scarabs are your go to multi wound unit hilariously and sadly
- All Gauss all day
- vehicles for days, especially doomscythes and stalkers seriously, why take anything but doomscythes now? Set 3 shots, and minimum 4 damage lol.
- Nihilakh is every army going forward, seriously what were they thinking.
-The only other multi wound units I am considering are gauss tomb blades and rod praetorians
Tiberius501 wrote: It’s interesting that C’tan’s can’t benefit from look out sir. Luckily they can at least hide behind obscuring terrain.
It's huge IMO. Even with Necrodermis, NB dies within 2 turns to a determined army with good shooting and good psychic and/or melee. C'tan aren't bad by any means and I'm totally on board with them being big nasty brutes...... however, people are going way overboard in calling the NB overpowered
I agree. I was pretty much going to auto take the Void Dragon, but this has now made him a choice instead of auto include haha.
This is a big claim which could come back to bite me, but I think at 350 points, named C'tan are dead on arrival competitvely. Perhaps not Deceiver? He's kind of his own thing.
Nightbringer and Void Dragon will absolutely murder certain armies (Custodes, probably Tau, maybe Guard) but will in turn be deleted long before they make their points back against other armies and so you won't see them in winning lists.
Against say Tau (bad) you probably laugh as he carves them to bits on his own.
Against say Harlequins (good), he probably dies turn 2 having accomplished very little.
They can only lose 3 wounds a phase, so unless Tau is able to cause 3 wounds in cc this is impossible. They also have living metal so they regain 1 wound each turn they are hard to take out.
keep in mind ctan have living metal so if it survives to your second turn its going to take 4 damage phases to kill it and I think there's a way for the technomancer to heal it (but I could be wrong there). 350 is steep but I think there might still be play. It's one of those things we'll have to see on the tabletop
Against say Tau (bad) you probably laugh as he carves them to bits on his own.
Against say Harlequins (good), he probably dies turn 2 having accomplished very little.
They can only lose 3 wounds a phase, so unless Tau is able to cause 3 wounds in cc this is impossible. They also have living metal so they regain 1 wound each turn they are hard to take out.
Not to mention taking cover behind obscuring terrain.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khornatedemon wrote: keep in mind ctan have living metal so if it survives to your second turn its going to take 4 damage phases to kill it and I think there's a way for the technomancer to heal it (but I could be wrong there). 350 is steep but I think there might still be play. It's one of those things we'll have to see on the tabletop
Yeah if he has his cloak he can follow along with him and heal d3 wounds.
EDIT: Hmm actually I might be wrong. He can heal Dynasty units. C’tan don’t have your dynasty keyword do they?
From what I've seen, the talk of a totally CANOPTEK army didn't play it. That makes me a saaad Scarab!
My 39 bases of Scarabs and 9 old Metal Tomb Spyders should still be great!
- Nihilakh is every army going forward, seriously what were they thinking.
Nihilakh loses out to custom dynasty. You can get the same ObSec rule and combine it with a different awakening that will actually benefit the army. Like the free pre-battle move of up to 6", which affects the entire army.
Of all the dynasties, there is zero reason to take Nihilakh unless you somehow intend to camp your deployment zone all game, and I don't think that's going to work in 9th.
I have to say, my initial optimism really is wearing thin.
The new RPs seems really crap for multi-wound units, and still doesn't affect characters.
But it's okay - Living Metal will really, definitely, honestly be changed to help with this, and there are also Rites of Reanimation.
Lol, fooled you! Living Metal is exactly the same and exactly as crap as it was before. Characters *still* can't benefit from RPs. Oh, and Rites of Reanimation can't affect Destroyers or other models that lose out horribly from the new RPs because those units aren't core.
Warscythes and Staffs of Light still aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
Relics like the Nanoscarab Casket have been nerfed into uselessness for no discernible reason.
Tesla has been nerfed, because of course it has.
Oh, and if my army includes an Overlord then I can't have a Destroyer Lord as my Warlord anymore. Sigh.
I suppose this is what I deserve for being stupid enough to allow myself to be even slightly excited for a GW release.
vipoid wrote: I have to say, my initial optimism really is wearing thin.
we have a new codex and you are complaining! We have a new codex with so many new models and you are complaining about losing old stuff!
vipoid wrote: The new RPs seems really crap for multi-wound units, and still doesn't affect characters.
Yes, RP sucks for multi-wound units but it is really good with warriors! The last codex we had Destroyers and Tomb Blades as serious threats this codex we have a diarrhea load of threats. Characters have a stratagem for RP that is better than its previous edition.
vipoid wrote: But it's okay - Living Metal will really, definitely, honestly be changed to help with this, and there are also Rites of Reanimation.
Living metal on everything is okay.
vipoid wrote: Lol, fooled you! Living Metal is exactly the same and exactly as crap as it was before. Characters *still* can't benefit from RPs. Oh, and Rites of Reanimation can't affect Destroyers or other models that lose out horribly from the new RPs because those units aren't core.
What character had RP? Rites of Reanimation is good as you can easily bring back 100 points worth of models in a game, automatically!
vipoid wrote: Warscythes and Staffs of Light still aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
You are right, you might want to try one of those new hyperphase weapons on like 4-5 platforms!
vipoid wrote: Relics like the Nanoscarab Casket have been nerfed into uselessness for no discernible reason.
Relics have always been hit or miss.
vipoid wrote: Tesla has been nerfed, because of course it has.
Tesla hasn't been nerfed there are just better options!
vipoid wrote: I suppose this is what I deserve for being stupid enough to allow myself to be even slightly excited for a GW release.
Warriors = Better
Immortals = Better
Lychguard = Better
DeathMarks = Better
C'Tan = Better
CC Options = Better
Monolith = Better
Long Range Options = Better (We literally had to be within 24)
Silent King = Good Unit
RP = Worse on Multi-wound Models
Honestly "solid" should be what we always hope for with each codex release. Overpowered just means there's an easy-win trick that often makes them less fun to play as and against and often means nerfs will be the first thing to come from rebalancing each year.
Underpowered is, equally, less fun since then its a harder challenge than normal and can often make the army very hyper reliant on its good builds at detriment to other units (as opposed to an overpowered book where you're not as dependent on the power builds, but they do net you less power).
Solid is the ideal. Solid with most units having a clear niche and being viable in decent builds with a lot of build variety - that's the perfect spot you want an army to be.
Not too powerful; not too weak and with lots of choices.
Really the only thing that bugs me is the Reanimator being almost twice what it should be in points for what it does. Its so useless, its not even stronger than a spyder yet costs nearly 2x one and its ability makes it a bullet-magnet so its gonna die first all the time. If it was 60-65pts it would be useful purely for the distraction alone lol.
RP not being great for multiwound models is a bummer but its not the end of the world. Most didnt get it anyway because of the low unit body count. Trading virtually never getting it for a measily ~4% chance on 3W models is fine by me, ive seen DG get lucky as hell and roll 8 5+'s on 9-10 dice before so its bound to happen for us once in awhile lol
Nothing else in the codex makes me go "wtf?" - thats a rarity to me.
One bonus about the Reanimator is that costs are one thing that GW does change through an edition. So we can cross fingers that if real play and testing does prove that it dies too fast and is overcosted, then GW might bring the points cost for them down.
It's better than when a unit is clearly broken mechanically and can't be easily fixed just be pushing its points up or down.
- Nihilakh is every army going forward, seriously what were they thinking.
Nihilakh loses out to custom dynasty. You can get the same ObSec rule and combine it with a different awakening that will actually benefit the army. Like the free pre-battle move of up to 6", which affects the entire army.
Of all the dynasties, there is zero reason to take Nihilakh unless you somehow intend to camp your deployment zone all game, and I don't think that's going to work in 9th.
I missed the 6" free move. So really its that. But the point overall still stands. Your always going to want the obsec, and probably the free move lol.
Overread wrote: Honestly "solid" should be what we always hope for with each codex release. Overpowered just means there's an easy-win trick that often makes them less fun to play as and against and often means nerfs will be the first thing to come from rebalancing each year.
Underpowered is, equally, less fun since then its a harder challenge than normal and can often make the army very hyper reliant on its good builds at detriment to other units (as opposed to an overpowered book where you're not as dependent on the power builds, but they do net you less power).
Solid is the ideal. Solid with most units having a clear niche and being viable in decent builds with a lot of build variety - that's the perfect spot you want an army to be.
Not too powerful; not too weak and with lots of choices.
Broadly agree with that. The ideal is obviously very good but not OP, but failing that I'll take a decent and diversified codex. My issue with this one is how hyper restrictive it is. To a fault.
Not really sure what makes you say it's restrictive. Like 80% of units in the Codex range from very good to useable.
Ophidian Destroyers can't compete with Wraiths, and making the Monolith a LoW was unnecessary. Flayed Ones are sad in a corner, and most unique characters are not that great. That's about it. Lokhust Destroyers got dunked on the hardest but are still useable.
Overread wrote: One bonus about the Reanimator is that costs are one thing that GW does change through an edition. So we can cross fingers that if real play and testing does prove that it dies too fast and is overcosted, then GW might bring the points cost for them down.
It's better than when a unit is clearly broken mechanically and can't be easily fixed just be pushing its points up or down.
Agreed.
Its stats/abilities/weapons are fine. Its cost is not. So easily remedied in the future.
- Nihilakh is every army going forward, seriously what were they thinking.
Nihilakh loses out to custom dynasty. You can get the same ObSec rule and combine it with a different awakening that will actually benefit the army. Like the free pre-battle move of up to 6", which affects the entire army.
Of all the dynasties, there is zero reason to take Nihilakh unless you somehow intend to camp your deployment zone all game, and I don't think that's going to work in 9th.
I missed the 6" free move. So really its that. But the point overall still stands. Your always going to want the obsec, and probably the free move lol.
It's an ability from AoS, so it's not without precedence, but I feel like there was supposed to be a rider in there that they left out on accident. My hunch is it should only include core units, which would keep wraiths and destroyers from using it for first turn charges. It would still be an awesome ability, just not as bonkers as it is now.
There is a good reason to take Nihilakh, alpha is a problem in 9th ed, and if your running silver tide the weapons you'll be worried about are low AP high volume. Being able to ignore -1 ap from bolt rifles and the like can blunt alot of the alpha that matters against crons. You can make that much better by combining it with eternal guardians, which can give your entire army light cover, making your warrior blobs 3+/5+++ while ignoring ap -1. Alpha wins games, so if you can blunt alpha, you can dunk armies that rely on it.
as for the order of protocols, here is my thinking:
Order for the protocols assuming a shooty cron list fighting a melee army:
Eternal Guardian - alpha is a problem in 9th ed, with first turn player having a 56% win rate. Blunting alpha if you go second is awesome. Worst case scenario, you go first and it does nothing, but you still get the first turn advantage.
Hungry void - in a fight against a melee army their going to be on you like white on rice by their second turn, getting a boosting the lethality of your screens by adding Str or some ap just increases the cost for them.
Conquering tyrant - Now that they made it past your screens and bad touched a bunch of your units it's time to fall back and shoot.
Sudden storm - Time is getting short and you'll want to squirrel away some extra VP, so being able to raise the banners and shoot or a bit of extra movement to get on objectives are both good.
Undying legions - not clutch in this case, but might help you avoid getting last minute killed off of objectives.
Against ranged opponents:
Eternal guardian - alpha is a problem in 9th ed, with first turn player having a 56% win rate. Blunting alpha if you go second is awesome. Worst case scenario, you go first and it does nothing, but you still get the first turn advantage.
undying legions - Shooty armies rely on inflicting damage in the first couple of rounds to give them lasting advantages, us being tougher makes their lives rougher.
Sudden storm - Extra movement can help close our range gap, and/or shoot while performing actions that get us VP.
Vengeful stars - we are in close range firefights now, add a little extra punch by ignoring cover or getting some extra ap.
Hungry void or conquering tyrant - hungry void if you think that by turn 5 you can take them in melee, or conquering tyrant to boost the auras of the remaining characters.
The goonhammer article outlines the following points;
The weapons are blast.
They can be buffed +1 to hit by a technomancer within 6 inches, bringing them to 3+.
They gain living metal (most Necron units do).
They have something like the Tau, "For the Greater Good"; the article writer is very vague about this. I mean getting <x> random d6 shots overwatch attempts and then needing a 6 sounds meh? We don't know if its better than this.
They have a gimmick strat that if one of your characters dies, the DS get +1 to hit against the "killer" unit (assuming they survive and are in LoS).
Acehilator wrote: Not really sure what makes you say it's restrictive. Like 80% of units in the Codex range from very good to useable.
Ophidian Destroyers can't compete with Wraiths, and making the Monolith a LoW was unnecessary. Flayed Ones are sad in a corner, and most unique characters are not that great. That's about it. Lokhust Destroyers got dunked on the hardest but are still useable.
It's not about the units. It's about the way we are allowed to use them.
Warlord, Core keyword, Command Protocols, 1 c'tan per deatch, lack of weapon loadout customisation, buffing, auras, still only 2 troops, too many specific strats, Monolith LoW, and many more examples of how the codex is clearly built from the ground up to restrict player choices to promote a desired playstyle
The goonhammer article outlines the following points;
Spoiler:
The weapons are blast.
They can be buffed +1 to hit by a technomancer within 6 inches, bringing them to 3+.
They gain living metal (most Necron units do).
They have something like the Tau, "For the Greater Good"; the article writer is very vague about this. I mean getting <x> random d6 shots overwatch attempts and then needing a 6 sounds meh? We don't know if its better than this.
They have a gimmick strat that if one of your characters dies, the DS get +1 to hit against the "killer" unit (assuming they survive and are in LoS).
They are basically competing against DDAs, and it's a fairly close comparison. I think the doom stalkers will require more support to be successful, which, all other things being equal, will make them the lesser choice. That's a hunch though, it could go the other way with clusters of them supporting each other and controlling fire lanes.
The real question is how much AT will we need, if we end up in a meta where vehicles and knight list are rare we might not see many of them.
Doomstalkers are also individually cheaper than a DDA, are they not? It is true that they'll need support from a technomancer but you're likely to have one anyway, as they'll provide Rites to your Warriors and such.
Looking at our other canopteks I'm really interested in Spyders. 60-65 points per model, coming in units of three, and five attacks each. Assuming the leaked profile does not change they should also have the option for going up to S8!
I would run them with a control node for +1 to hit, and you would have the option of the +1d3 attack arkana as well. However the phylacterine hive has a ton of value for Spyders so that is likely the go-to if you're using a single technomancer.
Don't know if its worth holding my breath for the FW Tomb Stalker to be competitively viable seeing as how its been what, 10 years since the game allowed that thing to live on a board for more than a round?
Agreed. I was also thinking how many DoomStalker would we need due to the meta-warping eradicators and nerfs on many SM tanks, who's going to bring much armor? However, given blast and their profile these things are not totally useless against Elite Infantry. I mean T5 W3 models are thing now, 4 wound bikes, 3 wound Termies, Custodes etc etc.
I think the custom trait that allows you to 6 inch move after knowing who goes first teams up really well with these. If you don't get first move, put them behind terrain, if you go first you can move them 6 inch and they still count as having not moved giving you 3d6 Str10 Ap-5 shots at 48 inches(assuming 3). That could really scare elite infantry from squatting objectives.
At 140 points each its not like losing a repulsor executioner or something. They'll give up the secondary, but outside of SM lists, most factions can't seem to avoid giving up some secondaries.
It's not about the units. It's about the way we are allowed to use them.
Warlord, Core keyword, Command Protocols, 1 c'tan per deatch, lack of weapon loadout customisation, buffing, auras, still only 2 troops, too many specific strats, Monolith LoW, and many more examples of how the codex is clearly built from the ground up to restrict player choices to promote a desired playstyle
Lack of loadout customization isn't new to 9th ed, and if anything both of our troops having alternate loadouts means we are better off this edition than we have been before. The restrictions on HQ are not isolated to us, marines got the same, and every codex going forward will get the same. They want HQ to be awesome, but not spamable, and I think that's the right call after the hero hammer shenanigans of 8th ed.
Monolith as a LoW is not a 100% win but the monolith was the OG super heavy, and people in this very thread had often wished for a return to those days. Frankly, they needed to do something with it, it had been as free to take as a fart in a thunderstorm, and just collected dust because it was awkwardly positioned as a not quite super heavy. Bringing it up to the level of knights seems as good a direction as any, it makes the model a better match for it's fluff and it now fills a role that used to be forgeworld exclusive for necrons (or hot garbage I suppose). I wish LoW were not so awkward to take, and maybe that's something we'll see change in the future of the edition.
C'Tan got the buff of a lifetime, I mean no unit changed more from edition to edition than they did. It goes back to GW wanting centerpiece units to be awesome to use but not spamable. The things that make the C'Tan awesome would be a real balance headache if you could take as many as you wanted.
Of course the codex is built in a manner that reinforces they way GW wants them to play, that's kind of the point of having multiple factions in a game like this. With that said we are much better off than many of the other factions, we can build CC, we can build ranged, we can focus on vehicles, we can focus on infantry, most armies in 40k don't get those choices. It would be like going to a MtG forum and complaining you feel pigeon holed into ramp and big mosters playing monogreen.
Punisher wrote: How does the Nightbringer interact with Tau drones? Can they intercept his wounds?
his wounds from what?
From his melee attacks
thats probably going to need an FAQ. saviour protocols says it redirects. nightbringer says you cant use ignore wounds. The wound isnt ignored, its just moved to a different target
I have a question about the wording on the Szarekhan specific relic. I could be being really dumb and missing how it works, but this seems like an error to me:
While a friendly Szarekhan unit is within 9” of the bearer, that unit benefits from the selected directive of your army’s active command protocol while it is within 9” of a friendly Szarekhan Character model instead of 6”.
I assume what it’s saying, just in a really clunky way, is you can get protocol benefits within 9” of the bearer instead of 6”. Just that last bit about being within 9” of a friendly character is throwing me off.
Tiberius501 wrote: I have a question about the wording on the Szarekhan specific relic. I could be being really dumb and missing how it works, but this seems like an error to me:
While a friendly Szarekhan unit is within 9” of the bearer, that unit benefits from the selected directive of your army’s active command protocol while it is within 9” of a friendly Szarekhan Character model instead of 6”.
I assume what it’s saying, just in a really clunky way, is you can get protocol benefits within 9” of the bearer instead of 6”. Just that last bit about being within 9” of a friendly character is throwing me off.
yes pretty much allows the protocol buff to extend to 9" and core units get both buffs of the protocol
Tiberius501 wrote: I have a question about the wording on the Szarekhan specific relic. I could be being really dumb and missing how it works, but this seems like an error to me:
While a friendly Szarekhan unit is within 9” of the bearer, that unit benefits from the selected directive of your army’s active command protocol while it is within 9” of a friendly Szarekhan Character model instead of 6”.
I assume what it’s saying, just in a really clunky way, is you can get protocol benefits within 9” of the bearer instead of 6”. Just that last bit about being within 9” of a friendly character is throwing me off.
yes pretty much allows the protocol buff to extend to 9" and core units get both buffs of the protocol
It seems pretty good to me with that second buff, especially with the Warlord trait to pick only 4 protocols but can assign 1 to 2 turns.
With all the rules in hand, I gotta say my initial impression is that we are a very powerful book. I don't think we quite break into the top 4 armies tier (Though the Nightbringer may help quite a bit) it is much, much improved.
We have several powerhouse units, stratagems and rules, with lots of flavor back. What's most important is there really does appear to be a ton of ways to play the army, and a lot of ways that are strong.
That being said, there are some real baffling choices. The Reanimator nerfs, our hardcore core restriction and a few other things are really head scratchers.
The Core restrictions makes sense to me- at least, I can see what the basic logic is: Necron and sane. So no canopteks, destroyers, or flayed ones (or triarchs, because <dynasty>. That may not be satisfying from a gameplay perspective, but it seems straightforward.
The Reanimator-- got nothing. It just costs too much, and has to compete with a pile of choices that are just better.
Monolith- mostly the same. Its just priced too high, and extra costs on top for the LoW thing.
Other niggles- Immortals with Tesla. These aren't as good, and don't have the support gauss does. But they cost more. Seems a reaction to their old rules which isn't appropriate.
Ophydians are competing with both Skorpekhs and Wraiths and losing against both, imo. They should have had a different loadout with a clear niche. And not so absurdly squishy.
Command protocols are annoyingly fiddly, especially how little some of them are. Nothing about that makes sense to me.
The ObSec dynasty trait is just... wrong to me. Its a very metagame ability that feels out of place.
But _overall_ its a much, much better army. There are real choices to be made, with very few things that are crazy overpowered and quite a few things brought back into relevance (or at least not feeling utterly stupid for bringing them along).
I know this is a bit of a trademarked and annoying thing to say haha, but it feels a bit wrong to worry about how powerful we are in current meta. Going into a new edition, the other factions are possibly seeing their own big changes and nerfs and rebalance so we kinda have to wait and see.
But I’m glad initial reactions seem generally positive regardless, and being solid but not OP is hopefully going to be the direction all the other factions go so we can have a smaller distance between power.
I’m very pleased with 9th so far and these codex have me very positive (besides a few gripes like monolith costing CP and not getting dynasty benefits).
So, just skimming through some of the leaks, Silvertide is sort of viable? I have always loved the idea of silvertide. I am just sort of sad that the Monolith is now a LOW...
Eldenfirefly wrote: So, just skimming through some of the leaks, Silvertide is sort of viable? I have always loved the idea of silvertide. I am just sort of sad that the Monolith is now a LOW...
Silvertide may seem to be the only viable option if you want a competitive list.
My impression is that everything else is garbage.
Yeah I’d love to do silver tide too. 3 big blocks of 20 warriors backed up by a Reanimator for each unit as the core. Seems potentially pretty viable now I’d say.
Eldenfirefly wrote: So, just skimming through some of the leaks, Silvertide is sort of viable? I have always loved the idea of silvertide. I am just sort of sad that the Monolith is now a LOW...
Silvertide may seem to be the only viable option if you want a competitive list.
My impression is that everything else is garbage.
I think you can lean into a melee heavy army now too.
Silver Tide lists with Szeras are a huge trap BTW since you are effectively paying over half of your army for mere antinfantry fire and a huge big weapons target that will lose his weapons and auras as he gets wounded
So thinking about how are we going to build necron armies,
Q:What characters should you take?
You need a noble to get your command protocols, and CCB seems like the way to go there since he is tougher, has more wounds, has a permanent THP. He can also have a rezorb, which has found a purpose after an edition of being a trap. The only downside is he is limited to a 5++ instead of a 4++. I like the double cryptek for one slot, since they bring a lot of utility, and we are going to be short on characters since all but one of your characters is an HQ choice. We need characters to perform actions for mission objectives, and the list of arcana can include some really interesting effects. Third could be empty, might be a beatstick, or could be a lord for a second rez orb.
Q: Multi rez orb?
Rez orbs give us 7th ed RP for a round, so Having one rez orb seems like a good investment, but if one is good is two better? It would mean taking a lokhust destroyer lord or a lord.
Q: How much silver tide?
It seems fair to say that silver tide is probably our blessed play mode, but how many is enough. The new night scythe has some epic clown car abilities with 20 passenger slots, so do you just put 20 reapers in there, and drop them where they are needed? There is also the VoD as a way to move 20 man blobs around. Beyond the initial blob, I think a 5 man of immortals with tesla is a no brainer, just to punish the enemy grouping up. The third seems really open ended, Another 20 man to crush the objective game, a 10 man in a GA to add some mobility and support the primary blob, or are immortals good enough to take?
Q: Are Immortals worth it?
I know they will get used because they are the cheapest troop option, and people spending elsewhere will probably skimp on troop choices. I also think the 1 cp strat means you'll want a few units with tesla for mortal wound support, and grabbing that in a troop tax seems attractive. At T5 and a 3+/5+++, they are basically 8th ed plague marines, but with better guns. Overall it seems like they a back field objective camper, but I can't imagine a scenario where I think "man I'm glad I had those gauss blasters". Maybe against custodes, for the one or two turns until they get charged and wiped.
Q: Which C'Tan?
I feel like we can eliminate void dragon, he's not bad, but the other two are game changing. Deceiver is merely "ok" in CC, but deployment mind games can be a wonderful force multiplier, and you get to do it after you know who is going first. His specific ability is swingy but can skew high. Nightbringer might be the best beatstick in the game, he can level any of the primarchs in a round or two, and with some fight first/last support he can eliminate units that would be a threat to him. Someone called him a win more piece, and I understand the sentiment, but I feel like he forces opponents to react to him, and thus is more like a soft control piece. Opponents can stay away from him, or gather enough beef to take him out, and both are things we can take advantage of.
Unpopular opinions here I know, but I feel like most of the Cryptek options are a trap. The best units in the codex by far are Deathmarks, Doomstalkers, Immortals and (surprisingly) Spyders. Overlords are a decent HQ finally, though I might run a Command Barge instead. C'tan are the hardest thing to judge, but could be extra powerful. Especially the Nightbringer (even that Gaze of Death is spicy). I'd avoid warriors in general tbh. 13 points and they die faster than they did before without the 5+ invuln. Res orb might be worth it now, Doom Scythes are so tough to judge, since they look good on paper, but knowing the difficulties of positioning flyers I know not to jump on them as quickly. Monolith is too expensive to be competitive really.
wuestenfux wrote: My hope was that a Destroyer-heavy ''Destroyer Cult'' army would a be viable and fluffy option.
But I guess it's not.
This is way premature. Skorpehks are one of the best units in the codex. They're quite strong. A melee themed list leans hard on them and the nightbringer, and it's a solid looking option.
Reanimators are gak, why are people still bringing up his RP synergies which are non-existent the moment you delete a 110 pts unit that has T5 and 6W with a mere 3+ save?
Prismatic Dimensional Breech seems totally broken.
Put night scythe and 10 lychguard in reserve.
Turn 2 nightscythe arrives anywhere on the board
Lychguard use PDB to appear next it, 2" from enemy.
Guaranteed charge
KurtAngle2 wrote: Reanimators are gak, why are people still bringing up his RP synergies which are non-existent the moment you delete a 110 pts unit that has T5 and 6W with a mere 3+ save?
Agreed. Bring more warriors instead. Or a cryptek which can reanimate D3 warriors.
What are the restrictions for that Cryptek reanimation ability? Can it only work on Core units? Can it restore multi-wound models?
If there's no restriction on unit type and it can bring back multi-wound models at full health, then destroyers still have some staying power, despite the nerf to RP.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What are the restrictions for that Cryptek reanimation ability? Can it only work on Core units? Can it restore multi-wound models?
If there's no restriction on unit type and it can bring back multi-wound models at full health, then destroyers still have some staying power, despite the nerf to RP.
Only works on core units, so no Destroyers, Canoptek or Praetorians. Crypteks feel like a trap choice tbh.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What are the restrictions for that Cryptek reanimation ability? Can it only work on Core units? Can it restore multi-wound models?
If there's no restriction on unit type and it can bring back multi-wound models at full health, then destroyers still have some staying power, despite the nerf to RP.
Only works on core units, so no Destroyers, Canoptek or Praetorians. Crypteks feel like a trap choice tbh.
Well crap. I guess GW really doesn't want us to use destroyers. Maybe too many marine players got upset that they were such good damage dealers, idk. If I designed the codex, I would have introduced a destroyer cryptek to compensate.
If people want to make Warriors work, then there's a couple ways to try. First, you'd need a lot of them. Probably 40-60 in 2000 points. Also, you should elect to go second, and choose the Immovable Phalanx tradition for the custom dynasties. Similar to the Eternal Guardian command protocol, it doesn't check if you moved last battle round, instead it gives you the benefit if you haven't moved THIS battle round. So go second, and you'll get this even if you're advancing up the board. Get +1 to your armour save vs Damage 1 weapons for a 3+ save on all your guys. Use Eternal Guardian on turn 2 for light cover too so you can get as many dudes into rapid fire range, then just focus on damage. Might not be the most competitive way of playing, but could be a lot of fun. Of course, it's easy to counter this strategy. By having the opponent make you go first. Also, doesn't work turn 1 if you choose the Relentlessly Expansionist circumstance of awakening so beware of that.
Grimgold wrote: It would be like going to a MtG forum and complaining you feel pigeon holed into ramp and big mosters playing monogreen.
Well no, it wouldn't be. Basically nothing you said is a valid argument against us being a heavily restricted faction, which we are. And Marines don't have the same restrictions, not even close.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What are the restrictions for that Cryptek reanimation ability? Can it only work on Core units? Can it restore multi-wound models?
If there's no restriction on unit type and it can bring back multi-wound models at full health, then destroyers still have some staying power, despite the nerf to RP.
Only works on core units, so no Destroyers, Canoptek or Praetorians. Crypteks feel like a trap choice tbh.
Well crap. I guess GW really doesn't want us to use destroyers. Maybe too many marine players got upset that they were such good damage dealers, idk.
If I designed the codex, I would have introduced a destroyer cryptek to compensate.
Yeah, this is one of the things that really irked me.
I don’t know if people care much about patrol scale games, but this was a fluffy list I was thinking up. It’s 1 of many small repair patrols who are going around the tomb world seeing to priority repairs. Just a rough idea so far using power, I’ll do points later, as I might be able to squeeze more or less in:
Actually, Technomancers could be pretty good. Never spotted that they also have a second aura that gives all Canoptek units within 6" +1 to hit. Also their cloak can heal any Dynasty unit for d3 wounds, and they can return models to 2 units for 1 cp. Maybe take the Cryptek Arcana that gives a selected unit cover against attacks over 12" and they might be worth it to help survive getting into range. Also, the +1 to hit could help mitigate the 4+ BS of the Doomstalker if they're within 6".
Also, the Chronomancer's Entropic Lance is quite funny as hidden Anti-tank on a character. 18" Inch range, 1 shot, Strength 8, Ap -3, but Damage of D3+3 is quite surprising.
Tiberius501 wrote: Yeah I’d love to do silver tide too. 3 big blocks of 20 warriors backed up by a Reanimator for each unit as the core. Seems potentially pretty viable now I’d say.
pretty sure statistically you'd be better off with 80 warriors for a silvertide than 60+3 reanimators.
Reanimators dont do diddly offensivewise, and cost as much as ~9 warriors. They have to be the reason a ton of warriors stood back up to be worth bringing and due to their statline theyre just gonna soak up the random heavy shot and blow up immediately.
Hence why earlier i was saying they need to be around half their price. They simply dont do anything outside of that +1 to RP, and being that expensive it offsets the bonus by quite a bit.
Literally the only thing about the new codex ive seen so far that really bothers me is this beautiful walker's pricetag.
Tiberius501 wrote: Yeah I’d love to do silver tide too. 3 big blocks of 20 warriors backed up by a Reanimator for each unit as the core. Seems potentially pretty viable now I’d say.
pretty sure statistically you'd be better off with 80 warriors for a silvertide than 60+3 reanimators.
Reanimators dont do diddly offensivewise, and cost as much as ~9 warriors. They have to be the reason a ton of warriors stood back up to be worth bringing and due to their statline theyre just gonna soak up the random heavy shot and blow up immediately.
Hence why earlier i was saying they need to be around half their price. They simply dont do anything outside of that +1 to RP, and being that expensive it offsets the bonus by quite a bit.
Literally the only thing about the new codex ive seen so far that really bothers me is this beautiful walker's pricetag.
I do agree, I really want to use them, and keep trying to kid myself that they’ll be able to hide behind stuff. But yeah, 110pts is just way too high for a weak, single target buffing unit. :/
if it was an aura i could sorta understand its pricetag, but it would still be one hell of a bulletmagnet.
Non-character buffbots are difficult to price.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Reanimators are gak, why are people still bringing up his RP synergies which are non-existent the moment you delete a 110 pts unit that has T5 and 6W with a mere 3+ save?
Personaly it’s out of a vague sense of desperation in that I bought enough spare destroyers in early 8th to build a pure destroyer army and whilst I’m looking forwards to adding some melee to run them again, the improbability of making their durability gimmick actually function is painful.
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Vineheart01 wrote: if it was an aura i could sorta understand its pricetag, but it would still be one hell of a bulletmagnet.
Non-character buffbots are difficult to price.
If it’s a tall unit that barely does anything but buff, give it an invulnerable! Doesn’t seem like a hard bit of design to me...
Sasori wrote: With all the rules in hand, I gotta say my initial impression is that we are a very powerful book. I don't think we quite break into the top 4 armies tier (Though the Nightbringer may help quite a bit) it is much, much improved.
We have several powerhouse units, stratagems and rules, with lots of flavor back. What's most important is there really does appear to be a ton of ways to play the army, and a lot of ways that are strong.
That being said, there are some real baffling choices. The Reanimator nerfs, our hardcore core restriction and a few other things are really head scratchers.
Dude, the nightbringer is insane. That guy will straight up wreck certain armies alone.
Whats cool is he reminds me of his 3rd edition incarnation where he just flew around creating tempests and melting infantry with massive phalanx of warriors all around him. I actually really want to take all 80 of my warriors 15 flayed ones and a monolith and see how is does.
Eldenfirefly wrote: So, just skimming through some of the leaks, Silvertide is sort of viable? I have always loved the idea of silvertide. I am just sort of sad that the Monolith is now a LOW...
Silvertide may seem to be the only viable option if you want a competitive list.
My impression is that everything else is garbage.
Nah, doomscythes are insane now. Sure they went up 50 points but they gained +50% range on both weapons, +50% in shots on the deathray along with +20% strenth and about +40% in damage.
Also spyders are the necron talos now. Units of 3 near a technomancer for WS3+ and the plus d3 attacks per spider on the unit is insane with their new profile. make them novokh and for 1cp add another attack and they get aother ap -1 pushing them to -4. Oh and you can heroically intervein with them for 1cp lol. A cronomancer can also give them the 5++ they lack as well. That unit is such a sand box of potential its nuts. Custom dynahsty trait them for a turn one 14"+d6" move out the gait lol...
Eldenfirefly wrote: So, just skimming through some of the leaks, Silvertide is sort of viable? I have always loved the idea of silvertide. I am just sort of sad that the Monolith is now a LOW...
Silvertide may seem to be the only viable option if you want a competitive list.
My impression is that everything else is garbage.
Nah, doomscythes are insane now. Sure they went up 50 points but they gained +50% range on both weapons, +50% in shots on the deathray along with +20% strenth and about +40% in damage.
Also spyders are the necron talos now. Units of 3 near a technomancer for WS3+ and the plus d3 attacks per spider on the unit is insane with their new profile. make them novokh and for 1cp add another attack and they get aother ap -1 pushing them to -4. Oh and you can heroically intervein with them for 1cp lol. A cronomancer can also give them the 5++ they lack as well. That unit is such a sand box of potential its nuts. Custom dynahsty trait them for a turn one 14"+d6" move out the gait lol...
The only problem is, if you give the Technomancer the +1 to hit aura for Canoptek units, he can heal d3 wounds or move 10”. I’m having a hard time working out which I want.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What are the restrictions for that Cryptek reanimation ability? Can it only work on Core units? Can it restore multi-wound models?
If there's no restriction on unit type and it can bring back multi-wound models at full health, then destroyers still have some staying power, despite the nerf to RP.
Only works on core units, so no Destroyers, Canoptek or Praetorians. Crypteks feel like a trap choice tbh.
for 20pts once a game he can bring back a destroyer, canoptek or praetorian. 20pts to get a 70pt tomb spyder back seems decent.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What are the restrictions for that Cryptek reanimation ability? Can it only work on Core units? Can it restore multi-wound models?
If there's no restriction on unit type and it can bring back multi-wound models at full health, then destroyers still have some staying power, despite the nerf to RP.
Only works on core units, so no Destroyers, Canoptek or Praetorians. Crypteks feel like a trap choice tbh.
for 20pts once a game he can bring back a destroyer, canoptek or praetorian. 20pts to get a 70pt tomb spyder back seems decent.
Yeah, if you're going down the route of using the Canoptek Command Node, then it could be an alright option for sure. Technomancer seems to be the best option either way, but not for the reasons most are thinking of. Chronomancer's bring anti-tank to warrior hordes plus a 5+ invuln to a squad.
Vineheart01 wrote: if it was an aura i could sorta understand its pricetag, but it would still be one hell of a bulletmagnet.
Non-character buffbots are difficult to price.
The biggest issue with it not being an aura is your opponent will just shoot whatever the reanimator DIDNT target with his buff. His ability is WAY to telegraphed to be any use meaning you can't really justify the odd reanimator but need one for every phalanx, which obviously isn't worth the cost since you'd just take more phalanxes lol.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What are the restrictions for that Cryptek reanimation ability? Can it only work on Core units? Can it restore multi-wound models?
If there's no restriction on unit type and it can bring back multi-wound models at full health, then destroyers still have some staying power, despite the nerf to RP.
Only works on core units, so no Destroyers, Canoptek or Praetorians. Crypteks feel like a trap choice tbh.
for 20pts once a game he can bring back a destroyer, canoptek or praetorian. 20pts to get a 70pt tomb spyder back seems decent.
Yeah, if you're going down the route of using the Canoptek Command Node, then it could be an alright option for sure. Technomancer seems to be the best option either way, but not for the reasons most are thinking of. Chronomancer's bring anti-tank to warrior hordes plus a 5+ invuln to a squad.
canoptek might actually be decent. Spyders are pretty strong and even though they got nerfed I think wraiths are still a good choice.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What are the restrictions for that Cryptek reanimation ability? Can it only work on Core units? Can it restore multi-wound models?
If there's no restriction on unit type and it can bring back multi-wound models at full health, then destroyers still have some staying power, despite the nerf to RP.
Only works on core units, so no Destroyers, Canoptek or Praetorians. Crypteks feel like a trap choice tbh.
for 20pts once a game he can bring back a destroyer, canoptek or praetorian. 20pts to get a 70pt tomb spyder back seems decent.
Yup, I expected that to be restricted to none monster or vehicle but it isn't lmao. So insane, it basically discounts the technomancers price but I would probably stick with the +1 to hit buff.
I am glad my 3 spyders will see play now that my destroyer cult got screwed lmao. Hop aboard the 40k rollercoster, one edition this unit sucks, next edition it's amazing and the old good is bad lol.
Praetorians are crazy too, I actually think the rod praetors are better then lychguard all around.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What are the restrictions for that Cryptek reanimation ability? Can it only work on Core units? Can it restore multi-wound models?
If there's no restriction on unit type and it can bring back multi-wound models at full health, then destroyers still have some staying power, despite the nerf to RP.
Only works on core units, so no Destroyers, Canoptek or Praetorians. Crypteks feel like a trap choice tbh.
for 20pts once a game he can bring back a destroyer, canoptek or praetorian. 20pts to get a 70pt tomb spyder back seems decent.
Yeah, if you're going down the route of using the Canoptek Command Node, then it could be an alright option for sure. Technomancer seems to be the best option either way, but not for the reasons most are thinking of. Chronomancer's bring anti-tank to warrior hordes plus a 5+ invuln to a squad.
canoptek might actually be decent. Spyders are pretty strong and even though they got nerfed I think wraiths are still a good choice.
Wraiths are amazing, especially near the +1 to hit aura. I honestly like them more then either combat destroyers. They are faster and more durable with similar damage output. I think people need to stop looking at them as 6 man units though, I think in 9th they will be really strong in 3 man pods with the free pre game move and obsec. Basically more durable scarab units that can tarpit in a pinch. Save the heavy hitting for spyders and nighbringer lmao.
BTW spyders are elites now as well. They moved a lot of the battlefield roles around actually.
Spyders seem really good, but what do you guys think of their speed? Is them being kinda slow an issue? Or is advancing up the table an okay enough method?
I'm a big fan of the Pyschomancer. The way he can manipulate things is really my cup of tea. Add in his arkana for some trickle mortal wounds, and I think I'm going to try to fit one in every list.
I think we have a few competetive options. I think warriors are good, but I'm still a huge fan of Gauss Immortals. We also have some very good melee options. Skorpekhs, Wraiths, Spyders are all very good at melee.
The new Doomstalker also seems to be really good. The free Overwatch for anyone that gets charged is very cool, and I like the stratagem.
Only thing that bugs me about the Psychomancer is that his debuff is done in the Morale Phase. So by the time you know whether or not it's worked, it's too late to do anything about it.
My issue with the doomstalker is the same as the DDA. They are both incredibly swingy only the doomstalker also shoots like a guardsmen. I just don't rate him when a stalker is so much better.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What are the restrictions for that Cryptek reanimation ability? Can it only work on Core units? Can it restore multi-wound models?
If there's no restriction on unit type and it can bring back multi-wound models at full health, then destroyers still have some staying power, despite the nerf to RP.
Only works on core units, so no Destroyers, Canoptek or Praetorians. Crypteks feel like a trap choice tbh.
for 20pts once a game he can bring back a destroyer, canoptek or praetorian. 20pts to get a 70pt tomb spyder back seems decent.
Yup, I expected that to be restricted to none monster or vehicle but it isn't lmao. So insane, it basically discounts the technomancers price but I would probably stick with the +1 to hit buff.
you can have the +1 to hit and the once a game rez
vipoid wrote: Only thing that bugs me about the Psychomancer is that his debuff is done in the Morale Phase. So by the time you know whether or not it's worked, it's too late to do anything about it.
It's true, you have to be thoughtful to setup. In most cases it should almost always go off though on a 3d6. Though I think you generally plan in advance for it. For instance, turning off obsec on an enemy unit can instantly cause the scoring to shift with our new obsec dynasty.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What are the restrictions for that Cryptek reanimation ability? Can it only work on Core units? Can it restore multi-wound models?
If there's no restriction on unit type and it can bring back multi-wound models at full health, then destroyers still have some staying power, despite the nerf to RP.
Only works on core units, so no Destroyers, Canoptek or Praetorians. Crypteks feel like a trap choice tbh.
for 20pts once a game he can bring back a destroyer, canoptek or praetorian. 20pts to get a 70pt tomb spyder back seems decent.
Yup, I expected that to be restricted to none monster or vehicle but it isn't lmao. So insane, it basically discounts the technomancers price but I would probably stick with the +1 to hit buff.
you can have the +1 to hit and the once a game rez
I wouldn't take two technomancers though, IDK I might but my gut feels like thats too many points in two models.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Man I can't sqeeze 3 monoliths and the patrol with the nightbringer I want LMAO.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What are the restrictions for that Cryptek reanimation ability? Can it only work on Core units? Can it restore multi-wound models?
If there's no restriction on unit type and it can bring back multi-wound models at full health, then destroyers still have some staying power, despite the nerf to RP.
Only works on core units, so no Destroyers, Canoptek or Praetorians. Crypteks feel like a trap choice tbh.
for 20pts once a game he can bring back a destroyer, canoptek or praetorian. 20pts to get a 70pt tomb spyder back seems decent.
Yup, I expected that to be restricted to none monster or vehicle but it isn't lmao. So insane, it basically discounts the technomancers price but I would probably stick with the +1 to hit buff.
you can have the +1 to hit and the once a game rez
I wouldn't take two technomancers though, IDK I might but my gut feels like thats too many points in two models.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Man I can't sqeeze 3 monoliths and the patrol with the nightbringer I want LMAO.
i meant one technomancer can have both. the rez is an arcana, the +1 to hit is just an upgrade he can take instead of the cloak. the real choice is the rez vs +d3 attacks on your spyders
Patrol
Lord, warscythe and res orb
15 warriors
16 warriors
Nightbringer
Super heavy detachment
monolith 4 deathrays
monolith 4 deathrays
monolith 4 deathrays
1998
EDIT You would probably be better off dropping the nightbringer and a monolith and taking the silent king and more infantry but I was aiming at a 3rd edition style list lol.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What are the restrictions for that Cryptek reanimation ability? Can it only work on Core units? Can it restore multi-wound models?
If there's no restriction on unit type and it can bring back multi-wound models at full health, then destroyers still have some staying power, despite the nerf to RP.
Only works on core units, so no Destroyers, Canoptek or Praetorians. Crypteks feel like a trap choice tbh.
for 20pts once a game he can bring back a destroyer, canoptek or praetorian. 20pts to get a 70pt tomb spyder back seems decent.
Yup, I expected that to be restricted to none monster or vehicle but it isn't lmao. So insane, it basically discounts the technomancers price but I would probably stick with the +1 to hit buff.
you can have the +1 to hit and the once a game rez
I wouldn't take two technomancers though, IDK I might but my gut feels like thats too many points in two models.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Man I can't sqeeze 3 monoliths and the patrol with the nightbringer I want LMAO.
i meant one technomancer can have both. the rez is an arcana, the +1 to hit is just an upgrade he can take instead of the cloak. the real choice is the rez vs +d3 attacks on your spyders
Yea sorry, I was reading your post as the +d3 verse the rez not the bonus to hit. For me I really want the extra attacks, the rez seems nice but your puting your money in reacting not acting. I'd rather put points into a benefit I know I will receive rather then one I need to wait until I am taking losses. I think both are really strong though however for the cost you can just buy a 4th spyder.
I think you're talking about the Fail-safe Overcharger, giving +d3 attacks to the Spyders each turn is pretty good. If you're taking Spyders, a unit of Scarabs could be worth it, since they're cheap, good screeners, and can get use of Scarab Hive of the Spyders.
Personally, I'll be running the new Command Barge with the Voidreaper artifact. Hunting down and killing supporting characters is particularly important, and the 12" movement and fly helps a lot with that. Plus, what kind of Phaeron wouldn't want their own personal chariot to go into battle?
Command Barge looks attractive as an alternative to the Skorpekh Lord. You probably still want a regular Overlord (making him the Phaeron) for double MWBD for your half of the board, and to carry the Orb of Eternity.
For the Barge, Honorable Combatant (+2A vs characters) + Voidreaper seems to be the best combo if you want to go all out on offense.
2+ WS 4 attacks (6 against characters)
S7 / AP -4 / 3D
no FnP rolls allowed
High movement, fly, QS, can use the new strat for 1 CP to get a 4++. Not S8 compared to the Skorpekh Lord, but otherwise much better. 150 points with Tesla, compared to the 130 for the Skorpekh Lord.
Gotta say, really nice. Especially when you don't plan on running regular Skorpekhs.
Do we know anything about our named characters rules? Particularly Zandrekh and Obyron. I saw they both dropped in points and back in 7e they were actually good. Also how about Lords, they get a aura?
I was initially a little bummed out about the codex leaks but am warming up to it. I was never a fan of Silver Tide, but Warriors look good for 9e play and we can get them into objectives easier. Stalkers got jacked up in points, After I was finally having some success with them. Destroyers still really won’t benefit from RP for a second straight edition. C’tan look amazing. Skorpekh Ds can be units of 6, strats, codes and relics look good. Kinda sucks we only have 4 CORE units but we can buff the hell out them. Also quite a few units actually dropped in points. Custom Dynasty with the 6” move and Obsec looks OP. Never bought a Monolith, maybe never will. Love we Have option to take Crypteks as No Force Org . That’s my initial impression.
Anyone else notice that Szeras’ shooting went back up to 36”? He seems pretty good for extra anti-tank support and to buff up core units/ bring back a few dudes a turn. Though 160pts is a bit of a chonk.
I just noticed that Command Protocols for the one special ability each turn does not work if you mix dynasties at all, for example taking the Silent King and then any custom or other set dynasties.
Virules wrote: I just noticed that Command Protocols for the one special ability each turn does not work if you mix dynasties at all, for example taking the Silent King and then any custom or other set dynasties.
doesnt the silent king have the keyword that allows them to ignore counting for your full dynasty?
The Silent King has both the <Szarekhan> and <Dynastic Agent> keyword, so he does not break detachments, and gives you access to the Szarekhan exclusive stratagem (which is pants, but hey).
You guys are right, there is literally no downside to taking him with any combination of dynasties given that he has the Dynastic Agent keyword and all his special rules affect everyone.
So reading the res.orb rules.. are we going to have to keep track of models that are destroyed from fleeing or will those models be eligible to reanimate with the res.orb?
This was always the worst part of house keeping in the codex in previous editions, hopefully it works that you can reanimate them cause otherwise I think that's the final nail in the coffin for the res.orb for me, I'm not going to track which models flee from morale I'll just not take the orb..
Anyone else confused by the point cost for the Command Barge?
It comes equipped with a gauss cannon and a staff of light with an option to replace the gauss with tesla. But in the point cost page there is a unit cost and then a gauss cannon cost but no cost described for the tesla cannon.. So I don't understand, I think there is a typo somewhere either the point cost page should have the tesla cannon as the weapon that costs more or the tesla cannon should be the standard equipped weapon on the barge..
I don’t mind it personally, it was pretty obnoxious before returning multi wound models as easily as 1 wound models. As long as they’ve been priced right then it should be fine and probably more of an enjoyable time for our opponents.
Spyders can literally never succeed on it (given they will roll at most 2 dice and need 6 successes).
Not true, you roll dice equivalent to their wounds, so each dead Spyder rolls 6 dice. Still astronomically unlikely to get one back, but not impossible.
dan2026 wrote: How do 3 Monolths teleporting onto objectives with the Eternal Conquerors (Objective Secured)
custom dynasty sound?
1080 points of ridiculousness?
They are still only one obsec model each. Your opponent can easily deny you a marker by moving one obsec model, and another model there. But, how big is a monolith ? Is its footprint big enough to cover the entire marker ? Will it still have a base ? If yes, can you move under the monolith with a base from another model, to get to the marker ?
On the subject of Monoliths, it is now possible to have 3 units "disembark" from one per turn. One from its Eternity Gate. One from the Dimensional Corridor strat. One from the Prismatic Dimensional Breach strat.
The eternity gate seems to be the worst of these options as it requires the monolith to remain stationary, and can't be used the turn it comes from reserve. It is free though.
Dimensional Corridor remains great as you don't have to have kept a unit in reserve, although you now have to be 9" away from enemies.
Prismatic Dimensional Breach is a brokenly good strat imo. You have to have a unit in reserve, but there is no 9" limit.
I'll be trying a deep striking monolith coming in turn 2, using DC and PDB to bring two units out, then Veil of Darknessing a HQ + 3rd unit over. Surprise!
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p5freak wrote: You could, but its a stupid idea. You would need two SHAUX detachments, which costs you 6 CP.
Wouldn't it just be one super heavy detachment? Still costing 6CP though (but you get 3 back from TSK). The monoliths could get dynasty traits and command protocols.
Superheavy still refunds that CP if your warlord is in there so you'd only be out 2-3CP for the other detachment you brought to finish up your list.
They had to include superheavy detachments in the refund rule because otherwise knights would be sitting at -6CP permanently, which would be disgustingly unfair lol
And SK HAS to be your warlord if you bring him. He's the King after all.
(kinda funny they didnt do that with Ghaz now that i think about it)
Worth noting that SK is a Dynastic Agent, he doesnt benefit from his own Code since Agents dont get Codes. Also means that you are free to bring him (via Supreme Command detachment) in any dynasty w/o losing protocols.
One issue with Monoliths: they give away 10VP if you lose one, 15 if you lose two. (Titanic keyword ) I know they got 4 more wounds, but did they get any other durability buffs to avoid them crumpling?
dan2026 wrote: How do 3 Monolths teleporting onto objectives with the Eternal Conquerors (Objective Secured)
custom dynasty sound?
1080 points of ridiculousness?
They are still only one obsec model each. Your opponent can easily deny you a marker by moving one obsec model, and another model there. But, how big is a monolith ? Is its footprint big enough to cover the entire marker ? Will it still have a base ? If yes, can you move under the monolith with a base from another model, to get to the marker ?
The monolith doesnt even need obsec if it's big enough. Just land on the objective and there might be no way to get within 3 without killing it first.
Even if the Monolith was a FLYER you couldnt move under it to sneak the objective as even FLYERs deny you from standing where they are, you can just move through them freely.
Not sure on exact dimenstions but the monolith does feel large enough to completely cover the 3" bubble for the objective.
Vineheart01 wrote: Even if the Monolith was a FLYER you couldnt move under it to sneak the objective as even FLYERs deny you from standing where they are, you can just move through them freely.
I guess you mean AIRCRAFT ? You can stand under the wing of an AIRCRAFT just fine when the model fits, and its outside of engagement range. The base matters.
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dan2026 wrote: Also once the Monolith is squatting on the objective, you could then start teleporting in Warriors to support it.
Is there a limit in 9th as to how much can be held in reserve?
Of course there is in matched play, its 50%. Unless you play SM with a drop pod army, then its 100%.
Tiberius501 wrote: Wait so, are we saying monoliths may actually be useful?
I mean moving a 24 wound, T8, 2+ save, regen 1 wound per turn brick off an objective, isn't going to be easy.
And that's before you get to the fact that its bristling with guns, can muder you in combat and can teleport in Warriors to back it up.
In 5th edition when necrons had the 4th edition codex there where some lists that did well with 2 monoliths and some warriors. You could do some neat trix like body blocking and grab warriors out of combat. Nice to hear an old clasic is back!
Tiberius501 wrote: Wait so, are we saying monoliths may actually be useful?
Running a single Monolith is likely fine depending on your army composition. 2-3 would be funny and likely automatically win in certain match-ups but the cost is very high. A balanced list suits the Monolith better, I think.
(I miss the Apoc formation where they could tri-point the enemy army and turn a whole slew of abilities off!)
One Monolith is costed similarly to the Nightbringer and their durability is comparable; if someone can kill the Nightbringer in a single turn, through Necrodermis, they can almost surely do significant damage to the Monolith. If you have ONE, you can babysit it -- an invuln from a Chronomancer, d3 wounds from a Technomancer, and an FCA or three from some Spyders. So forth and so on.
The CP cost to field it sucks but CP are there to be spent. A lot of Necron armies will be spending 2-3 CP on extra WLTs or relics anyway, so if you feel your Monolith list can make due without those, your battle plan should be about the same.
vipoid wrote: Out of interest, are you guys looking at Flayers or Reapers on Warriors?
If it matters, I'm thinking specifically for footslogging Warriors - no Ghost Arks!
I think I will always equip with reapers. They wont ever be footslogging though. They will be outflanking/coming in from a monolith/ or delivered with veil.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberius501 wrote: Wait so, are we saying monoliths may actually be useful?
At it's current price between 360-380. It is Amazing. It gives you all kinds of deployment shenanigans too. I love it.
i see a mix of flayers and reapers being viable.
Not every warrior is going to feasibly get in the enemy's face, so some flayers is wise.
But, reapers are clearly stronger when they can fire.
I'm wondering if that custom dynasty for +1S on rapid fire weapons within 12" is viable. S5 reapers or S6 flayers.
1 quick question about the Monolith, which weapons seem to be the better option?
EDIT: Also, how do the auxiliary detachment restrictions work again? Do they not gain the dynasty keyword? Or just not benefit from the dynasty special rules? I.e. can you still target it in game with abilities that would only affect Dynasty units?
I don't think the monolith will be very useful. It lost the "Fly" keyword so no landing on terrain. Plus, it's very good melee attack degrades into uncertainty. It's going to be very tough to deepstrike this onto the board with its size.
I know everyone is excited about the deathrays, but remember, its particle whip can't fire into close combat. If it degrades you'll be wishing you had the gauss arcs.
punisher357 wrote: I don't think the monolith will be very useful. It lost the "Fly" keyword so no landing on terrain. Plus, it's very good melee attack degrades into uncertainty. It's going to be very tough to deepstrike this onto the board with its size.
I know everyone is excited about the deathrays, but remember, its particle whip can't fire into close combat. If it degrades you'll be wishing you had the gauss arcs.
Honestly very few things want to be in combat with the monolith. I think the flux arcs are a goog choice though. The deathrays are hard to pass up though with 3+d3 damage. Just gotta bring something nasty in front of it. Lychgaurd or canoptek wraiths/spiders.
Flayers are S4 base and there is no way to get another +1S, Isolationists is the only option.
Sadly there is no Dynastic Tradition that pairs really well with Isolationists. Rapid Fire at max range when standing still sounds nice, but with the objectives based nature of 9th bonuses for standing still are generally speaking not that desireable, imho (and two of our most prominent AT options are already saddled with this drawback). One could always go with Obsec.
I am wondering about the future prelevalence of Heavy Intercessors. Their price point is just 100% insane for their statline. It's pretty easy to build a SM list with nothing but Gravis armor/bikes, where the only T4 infantry models left are 2-3 characters (Lieutnant, Apothecary, maybe a Librarian).
That would reduce the value of S4 weapons of both the ranged and melee variety by a lot.
Vineheart01 wrote: i see a mix of flayers and reapers being viable.
Not every warrior is going to feasibly get in the enemy's face, so some flayers is wise.
But, reapers are clearly stronger when they can fire.
I'm wondering if that custom dynasty for +1S on rapid fire weapons within 12" is viable. S5 reapers or S6 flayers.
Unfortunately they changed the reaper to assault 2 range 12.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Acehilator wrote: Flayers are S4 base and there is no way to get another +1S, Isolationists is the only option.
Sadly there is no Dynastic Tradition that pairs really well with Isolationists. Rapid Fire at max range when standing still sounds nice, but with the objectives based nature of 9th bonuses for standing still are generally speaking not that desireable, imho (and two of our most prominent AT options are already saddled with this drawback). One could always go with Obsec.
I am wondering about the future prelevalence of Heavy Intercessors. Their price point is just 100% insane for their statline. It's pretty easy to build a SM list with nothing but Gravis armor/bikes, where the only T4 infantry models left are 2-3 characters (Lieutnant, Apothecary, maybe a Librarian).
That would reduce the value of S4 weapons of both the ranged and melee variety by a lot.
punisher357 wrote: I don't think the monolith will be very useful. It lost the "Fly" keyword so no landing on terrain. Plus, it's very good melee attack degrades into uncertainty. It's going to be very tough to deepstrike this onto the board with its size.
I know everyone is excited about the deathrays, but remember, its particle whip can't fire into close combat. If it degrades you'll be wishing you had the gauss arcs.
Honestly very few things want to be in combat with the monolith. I think the flux arcs are a goog choice though. The deathrays are hard to pass up though with 3+d3 damage. Just gotta bring something nasty in front of it. Lychgaurd or canoptek wraiths/spiders.
Very few things want to be in combat with a monolith when it's full strength. If you get bogged down with chaff, you'll want the gauss arcs. Tarpitting the monolith would be an easy way to hurt your opponent.
That's a lot of points not firing.
Vineheart01 wrote: i see a mix of flayers and reapers being viable.
Not every warrior is going to feasibly get in the enemy's face, so some flayers is wise.
But, reapers are clearly stronger when they can fire.
I'm wondering if that custom dynasty for +1S on rapid fire weapons within 12" is viable. S5 reapers or S6 flayers.
Unfortunately they changed the reaper to assault 2 range 12.
Huh...i missed that.
That actually is awesome as hell to me. Means the Veil of Darkness to insta-drop 20 Reapers gets 40 shots instead of 20 the turn they drop.
I'll take that over a few S6 shots any day (S6 on 20 vs S5 on 40 lol)
punisher357 wrote: I don't think the monolith will be very useful. It lost the "Fly" keyword so no landing on terrain. Plus, it's very good melee attack degrades into uncertainty. It's going to be very tough to deepstrike this onto the board with its size.
I know everyone is excited about the deathrays, but remember, its particle whip can't fire into close combat. If it degrades you'll be wishing you had the gauss arcs.
Honestly very few things want to be in combat with the monolith. I think the flux arcs are a goog choice though. The deathrays are hard to pass up though with 3+d3 damage. Just gotta bring something nasty in front of it. Lychgaurd or canoptek wraiths/spiders.
Very few things want to be in combat with a monolith when it's full strength. If you get bogged down with chaff, you'll want the gauss arcs. Tarpitting the monolith would be an easy way to hurt your opponent.
That's a lot of points not firing.
In 9th, can’t vehicles just back out of melee and still shoot now? I thought that was one of the big changes to vehicles.
punisher357 wrote: I don't think the monolith will be very useful. It lost the "Fly" keyword so no landing on terrain. Plus, it's very good melee attack degrades into uncertainty. It's going to be very tough to deepstrike this onto the board with its size.
I know everyone is excited about the deathrays, but remember, its particle whip can't fire into close combat. If it degrades you'll be wishing you had the gauss arcs.
Honestly very few things want to be in combat with the monolith. I think the flux arcs are a goog choice though. The deathrays are hard to pass up though with 3+d3 damage. Just gotta bring something nasty in front of it. Lychgaurd or canoptek wraiths/spiders.
Very few things want to be in combat with a monolith when it's full strength. If you get bogged down with chaff, you'll want the gauss arcs. Tarpitting the monolith would be an easy way to hurt your opponent.
That's a lot of points not firing.
In 9th, can’t vehicles just back out of melee and still shoot now? I thought that was one of the big changes to vehicles.
Yes/no
Yes: Titanic vehicles/monsters can fall back and shoot.
No: Regular vehicles can shoot into combat (cannot fire blast, -1 to hit otherwise) they are engaged with but not fall back and shoot.
They can shoot into the melee they are in, but only if the weapon is not Blast.
T2 Reaper bomb?
Overlord (Phaeron, Thrall of the Silent King, Veil of Darkness)
2x 20 Warriors with Reapers
Nightscythe out of reserves, ports in the other group of Warriors with Prismatic Dimensional Breach
It's 3CP, but tasty. Probably just run this as Mephrit. The group coming in with Prismatic will benefit from the AP -1 while in half range bonus.
So it's 80 shots hitting on 2+, half of them at AP -3.
Imagine 20 warriors moving 6 inches before the game due to Implacable expansionist. Whenever they reanimate the Necron player reanimatess one model at a time! That means each model can be placed closer and closer to the objective, out of line of sight, or out of range of the next unit's weapon. That short-range gauss reaper can get closer with each successful RP!
Do you remember flayed ones? Each Flayed One reanimated is closer to a 1st turn charge and wrapping units in close combat is easy because of RP! Use the resurrection orb to bring back 3 to 4 models which easily equals around 6 inches closer to the enemy for a first turn charge!
punisher357 wrote: I don't think the monolith will be very useful. It lost the "Fly" keyword so no landing on terrain. Plus, it's very good melee attack degrades into uncertainty. It's going to be very tough to deepstrike this onto the board with its size.
I know everyone is excited about the deathrays, but remember, its particle whip can't fire into close combat. If it degrades you'll be wishing you had the gauss arcs.
Honestly very few things want to be in combat with the monolith. I think the flux arcs are a goog choice though. The deathrays are hard to pass up though with 3+d3 damage. Just gotta bring something nasty in front of it. Lychgaurd or canoptek wraiths/spiders.
Very few things want to be in combat with a monolith when it's full strength. If you get bogged down with chaff, you'll want the gauss arcs. Tarpitting the monolith would be an easy way to hurt your opponent.
That's a lot of points not firing.
In 9th, can’t vehicles just back out of melee and still shoot now? I thought that was one of the big changes to vehicles.
Yes/no
Yes: Titanic vehicles/monsters can fall back and shoot.
No: Regular vehicles can shoot into combat (cannot fire blast, -1 to hit otherwise) they are engaged with but not fall back and shoot.
I must have forgotten that titanic can fallback and shoot. That makes a big difference
CKO wrote: Imagine 20 warriors moving 6 inches before the game due to Implacable expansionist. Whenever they reanimate the Necron player reanimatess one model at a time! That means each model can be placed closer and closer to the objective, out of line of sight, or out of range of the next unit's weapon. That short-range gauss reaper can get closer with each successful RP!
Do you remember flayed ones? Each Flayed One reanimated is closer to a 1st turn charge and wrapping units in close combat is easy because of RP! Use the resurrection orb to bring back 3 to 4 models which easily equals around 6 inches closer to the enemy for a first turn charge!
With the new moral rules, don't you mean every two flayed ones is an inch closer? Or you risk the entire chain comes unraveling like a cheap sweater.
Despite this, this is gamey to a point I won't be doing.
its a core rule. Its also why all the various "can fall back and shoot/charge" rules got faq'd to only mention they can charge.
Also really pisses off Orks because the nauts got hit with that faq too, but they arent titanic.
Vineheart01 wrote: i see a mix of flayers and reapers being viable.
Not every warrior is going to feasibly get in the enemy's face, so some flayers is wise.
But, reapers are clearly stronger when they can fire.
I'm wondering if that custom dynasty for +1S on rapid fire weapons within 12" is viable. S5 reapers or S6 flayers.
Unfortunately they changed the reaper to assault 2 range 12.
Huh...i missed that.
That actually is awesome as hell to me. Means the Veil of Darkness to insta-drop 20 Reapers gets 40 shots instead of 20 the turn they drop.
I'll take that over a few S6 shots any day (S6 on 20 vs S5 on 40 lol)
Initially I saw this as a great opeining move that only sautek could pull off. Now you are free to use ANY dyansty to pull it off. That is the good news. There really is no bad news (unless you are sautek). I'm just gonna roll with Szarekhan now as it has a good all arounder. There are some really good custom trait combos though.
wait, gauss reapers are assault 2? where's this at?
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Acehilator wrote: They can shoot into the melee they are in, but only if the weapon is not Blast.
T2 Reaper bomb?
Overlord (Phaeron, Thrall of the Silent King, Veil of Darkness)
2x 20 Warriors with Reapers
Nightscythe out of reserves, ports in the other group of Warriors with Prismatic Dimensional Breach
It's 3CP, but tasty. Probably just run this as Mephrit. The group coming in with Prismatic will benefit from the AP -1 while in half range bonus.
So it's 80 shots hitting on 2+, half of them at AP -3.
Monolith, drop a squad out the front, use the one strat to drop another, use the third strat to drop yet another..... veil in another squad.
CKO wrote: Imagine 20 warriors moving 6 inches before the game due to Implacable expansionist. Whenever they reanimate the Necron player reanimatess one model at a time! That means each model can be placed closer and closer to the objective, out of line of sight, or out of range of the next unit's weapon. That short-range gauss reaper can get closer with each successful RP!
Do you remember flayed ones? Each Flayed One reanimated is closer to a 1st turn charge and wrapping units in close combat is easy because of RP! Use the resurrection orb to bring back 3 to 4 models which easily equals around 6 inches closer to the enemy for a first turn charge!
With the new moral rules, don't you mean every two flayed ones is an inch closer? Or you risk the entire chain comes unraveling like a cheap sweater.
Despite this, this is gamey to a point I won't be doing.
It clearly says select one of those models to be reanimated and it then gives us the limitations on where we can place them, this is why it was nerfed for multi-wound models.
Hey do the C'tan benefit from the command protocols? I know they don't count for spreading them but if they are within 6" of another character do they benefit?
It seems weird as they specifically don't get a lot of buffs but I can't find where they are restricted from receiving command protocols. It makes the protocol of the undying legion very attractive if they can gain 2 wounds that turn making them even harder to put down and the extra movement protocol would be nice as well.
Everyone is talking about the Nightbringer, but thoughts on the Transcendent C'tan?
- It went up by 75 points and is now 270
- Went down to STR 6
- Still has a 4+ save unlike the others
- Gained 1 wound and 1 attack
- The personality traits are mostly similar with a couple changes and 1 new one, I'd say they are a bit better overall
- Can only use one power unless you have Cosmic Tyrant
I really would like to use one since I spent lockdown converting and painting one up but.... ehhhhh. Especially as C'tan are only 1 per detachment now
Cynista wrote: Everyone is talking about the Nightbringer, but thoughts on the Transcendent C'tan?
- It went up by 75 points and is now 270
- Went down to STR 6
- Still has a 4+ save unlike the others
- Gained 1 wound and 1 attack
- The personality traits are mostly similar with a couple changes and 1 new one, I'd say they are a bit better overall
- Can only use one power unless you have Cosmic Tyrant
I really would like to use one since I spent lockdown converting and painting one up but.... ehhhhh. Especially as C'tan are only 1 per detachment now
The general verdict is that you get significantly more bang for your buck for 75 pts with either the Nightbringer or Void Dragon. If you want to bring a C'tan you should just free up the 75 points, as either of those will more than make up that in value to the army.
Is it worth chucking the guns on the spyders now? 12 shots each is nothing to sneeze at, but maybe it makes them cost too much. Floating up getting buffed by a Technomancer though means a unit of 3 is getting 3+ to hit on 36 shots.
So I'm pretty new to Necrons but picked up the Indomitus half because the models are great, and I always love a new army/codex to dissect.
In that spirit and using almost nothing from Indomitus here's a quick first hash at a theory crafted list based around those sweet, juicy Spyders and their Tech Bois:
CCB - Orb of Eternity Technomancer - Cloak, Fail-Safe Overcharger Technomancer - Control Node, Phylacterine Hive, Thrall of the Silent King (actually kind of unsure how to split up the buffs between the two Crypteks, but I know I want all of those things)
20 Warriors 10 Warriors
Night Bringer
5x Wraiths
3x Spyders 3x Spyders
Ghost Ark Ghost Ark (possibly swap for Night Scythe?)
What do the Overlords think? Haven't gone over new points with a fine tooth comb yet but that should fit into 2000 with a few points to spare
CKO wrote: Imagine 20 warriors moving 6 inches before the game due to Implacable expansionist. Whenever they reanimate the Necron player reanimatess one model at a time! That means each model can be placed closer and closer to the objective, out of line of sight, or out of range of the next unit's weapon. That short-range gauss reaper can get closer with each successful RP!
Do you remember flayed ones? Each Flayed One reanimated is closer to a 1st turn charge and wrapping units in close combat is easy because of RP! Use the resurrection orb to bring back 3 to 4 models which easily equals around 6 inches closer to the enemy for a first turn charge!
I'm pretty disappointed that they forget to limit this. I remember a very feel bad game against pox walkers with their old rules where they inched their way onto objectives and into charge range of stuff. Needs to be changed in an errata.
I'm also mildly annoyed that Reapers are just better than Flayers now. There are some abilities which buff rapid fire weapons to balance this out a little at least.
55, +15 if you take enmitic whatever or the heavy if you take lokhust destroyer. Heavy destroyer squadron is 70 pts but that has no regular versions in it.
tneva82 wrote: 55, +15 if you take enmitic whatever or the heavy if you take lokhust destroyer. Heavy destroyer squadron is 70 pts but that has no regular versions in it.
thing about RP allowing you to "creep" is since they let us do it at various points in the game...how could you prevent the creep? Unless you're charging the "closer to the enemy" doesnt work, as you could easily get shafted and not legally be allowed to put any down even if the enemy isnt near you at all.
Even if they put a limit saying "RP'd models this phase cannot be placed more than 2" away from where the unit was at the start of the phase" it would still enable creep, and not even really slow it down all that much.
am i reading the Overlord datasheet right that you cant swap out the Phaseblade cleaver thing w/o also getting rid of the Arrow?
That is incredibly annoying....
astro_nomicon wrote: So I'm pretty new to Necrons but picked up the Indomitus half because the models are great, and I always love a new army/codex to dissect.
In that spirit and using almost nothing from Indomitus here's a quick first hash at a theory crafted list based around those sweet, juicy Spyders and their Tech Bois:
CCB - Orb of Eternity
Technomancer - Cloak, Fail-Safe Overcharger
Technomancer - Control Node, Phylacterine Hive, Thrall of the Silent King
(actually kind of unsure how to split up the buffs between the two Crypteks, but I know I want all of those things)
20 Warriors
10 Warriors
Night Bringer
5x Wraiths
3x Spyders
3x Spyders
Ghost Ark
Ghost Ark (possibly swap for Night Scythe?)
What do the Overlords think? Haven't gone over new points with a fine tooth comb yet but that should fit into 2000 with a few points to spare
You know you gotta need to make your CCB warlord because of royal court rule?
You need rarified nobility stratagem to make a cryptek your warlord with a noble present in your list.
The Warlord rules in the Necron codex seem a little excessive. I can understand the Silent King having to be your warlord if included, and Phaerons taking precedence if available.
However, not being allowed to make a Destroyer Lord your Warlord if you have an Overlord, and not being able to make a Cryptek your warlord unless you have no Nobles and also requiring a stratagem on top of that just seems unnecessary.
Tiberius501 wrote: Is it worth chucking the guns on the spyders now? 12 shots each is nothing to sneeze at, but maybe it makes them cost too much. Floating up getting buffed by a Technomancer though means a unit of 3 is getting 3+ to hit on 36 shots.
I am really not sure about the spyders. Their stats look great...until you realize they have 4+ WS/BS and no invuln. RP might as well not be there, it'll never, ever, ever activate.
Offensively, 3 of them kill 5 MEQ in melee, and that's their ideal target with the S8 -3 2 damage profile they have. Against gravis, they will do well to kill 2 models. That's not exactly tearing it up. They do better with a technomancer giving them +1 to hit and +d3 attacks, but that's adding another 100 points to do that, which isn't efficient.
Defensively, they evaporate to any sort of dedicated anti-tank. Again, you can give them a 5++ from a chronomancer, but that's another 80 points.
If you could take units of 5 the synergies might become worth it, but at units of 3, I just don't think they are.
If you compare them to say chaos spawn, they come off looking severely gimped. Or to Triarchs, for that matter. 7 Triarchs cost 5 points less than 3 spiders, move much faster, have significant shooting, and do more damage in melee against every profile except T6-T7, where they do almost the same . They have 4 less wounds and 1 less T, but they also have a RP that can actually work, and high damage shots are wasted against them, so they are actually more resilient against the majority of stuff.
Even Lychguard will significantly outperform them, having either much more resilience per point with shields, or much more offensive potential with scythes. As well as being <CORE>, with everything that can give you.
The best thing about the spyders is probably that you can heroically intervene with them for 1CP.
Spyders need a lot from your Crypteks -- they want the control node for +1 to hit, the +d3 attack arkana, AND a phylacterine hive because getting one to pass RP is extremely difficult.
This means two of your Crypteks have to be dedicated to buffing Canoptek units. If you're also taking Doomstalkers and Wraiths, the cost doesn't sting as much, but you could be buffing Destroyers or Lychguard or Tomb Blades instead.
Really comes down to determining what Spyders (and Canoptek-heavy lists in general) can do that other kinds of Necron lists can't.
Chaos Spawn are broken, so not really a great comparison.
Three Spiders with Technomancer with Canoptek Control Node and Fail-safe Overcharger is 300 on the nose (3x 60 + 75+15+30).
5 attacks base + 2 average from Overcharger
21 attacks
14 hits
11.67 wounds
9.73 dead MEQ
There have been times when 66% RoI/turn has been considered very nice value. You could also switch the Overcharger to the Hive, to bring one Spider back, nets you 40 points if your opponent does not kill all three in one turn.
Not to mention the resistance to that strat is gonna blow the spyders up, not the crypteks (or at least not easily) so the crypteks can easily just mosey on over to something else to buff it afterwords.
Essentially you bought a distraction carnifex where part of the reason its so threatening can be moved to another unit. Thats a winwin
So looking at the reanimator there just does not seem to be a way to make it worthwhile. As it currently stands in order for it to make its points back in boosting RP it would need to provide its bonus to 54 RP rolls. This means that you would need a way to have it provide a buff to a 20 warrior squad for at least three different turns. This means that the model would either need to be able to hide, stay away from enemy fire, or survive attacks for three turns. Also, the list would need three full units of warriors, these warriors would also have to be introduced progressively i.e. one unit each turn.
Since this does not seem to be very likely. Players would need to be relying on it actually killing things which maybe it could as it’s gun is not terrible, but then you risk its survivability.
So really, the reanimator needs to be 1) drastically reduced in points, 2) its buff to RP needs to be an aura 3) it needs an improvement in durability. Ideally 2 out of 3 of these things need to happen.
Sorry for the rant, but I hate when GW introduces a new unit with garbage rules.
Drakmord wrote: Spyders need a lot from your Crypteks -- they want the control node for +1 to hit, the +d3 attack arkana, AND a phylacterine hive because getting one to pass RP is extremely difficult.
This means two of your Crypteks have to be dedicated to buffing Canoptek units. If you're also taking Doomstalkers and Wraiths, the cost doesn't sting as much, but you could be buffing Destroyers or Lychguard or Tomb Blades instead.
Really comes down to determining what Spyders (and Canoptek-heavy lists in general) can do that other kinds of Necron lists can't.
Yes. I agree with this. The raw damage potential is there. The Survivability is there BUT. There are other issues. 2 Cryptecs is not really worth the investment to go all in on them IMO. The attractive thing about the spyders is thecost and bonus utility Start dumping into mutiple cryptec upgrades and it gets pricey real fast.
Best way to run it IMO?
Take 9 spiders and 1 cryptec with the +1 to hit and failsafe. Maybe take a cryptothrolls to protect that cryptec too. + Take units of scarabs. This list wont be utilziing doom stalkers though - so will need to bring probably a destroyer lord to buff heavy destryoers or take doomsday archs and triarch stalkers for your shooting elements.
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russellmoo wrote: So looking at the reanimator there just does not seem to be a way to make it worthwhile. As it currently stands in order for it to make its points back in boosting RP it would need to provide its bonus to 54 RP rolls. This means that you would need a way to have it provide a buff to a 20 warrior squad for at least three different turns. This means that the model would either need to be able to hide, stay away from enemy fire, or survive attacks for three turns. Also, the list would need three full units of warriors, these warriors would also have to be introduced progressively i.e. one unit each turn.
Since this does not seem to be very likely. Players would need to be relying on it actually killing things which maybe it could as it’s gun is not terrible, but then you risk its survivability.
So really, the reanimator needs to be 1) drastically reduced in points, 2) its buff to RP needs to be an aura 3) it needs an improvement in durability. Ideally 2 out of 3 of these things need to happen.
Sorry for the rant, but I hate when GW introduces a new unit with garbage rules.
It makes absolutely no sense why it doesn't just have the doom stalker profile for it's points cost.
Also makes no sense how the doom stalker does not have the melee profile of the reanimator.
Acehilator wrote: Chaos Spawn are broken, so not really a great comparison.
Three Spiders with Technomancer with Canoptek Control Node and Fail-safe Overcharger is 300 on the nose (3x 60 + 75+15+30).
5 attacks base + 2 average from Overcharger
21 attacks
14 hits
11.67 wounds
9.73 dead MEQ
There have been times when 66% RoI/turn has been considered very nice value. You could also switch the Overcharger to the Hive, to bring one Spider back, nets you 40 points if your opponent does not kill all three in one turn.
Yeah, but again, 10 triarchs cost 50 points less and kill 11.11 MEQ instead, plus an additional 3.7 from shooting, which is actually an over 100% ROI against MEQ if you can actually find enough of them within range to murder. While moving much faster, being more resilient to almost all kinds of fire, being infantry and therefore not giving up 6 secondary points, having an RP that might actually work, being much more deadly against GEQ, and having access to a +1 to hit on demand for 1CP. And above all...not needing support. They just do all that stuff, right out of the box.
That said, if you do take the spyders + techno combo, you want to give them the guns. +30 points for 24 S5 hits a volley is a no-brainer, and really addresses their main weakness, being tarpitted by junk. And a gloom prism too, having a deny is almost certainly worth the 5 points.
The way spyders make arguable sense to me is going all-in and taking 9 + 1 technomancer, then putting guns on all of them, and hoping your opponent doesn't have enough dedicated anti-tank to remove them. At that point they're putting out a massive number of anti-chaff shots, coupled with threatening melee.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
russellmoo wrote: So looking at the reanimator there just does not seem to be a way to make it worthwhile. As it currently stands in order for it to make its points back in boosting RP it would need to provide its bonus to 54 RP rolls. This means that you would need a way to have it provide a buff to a 20 warrior squad for at least three different turns. This means that the model would either need to be able to hide, stay away from enemy fire, or survive attacks for three turns. Also, the list would need three full units of warriors, these warriors would also have to be introduced progressively i.e. one unit each turn.
Since this does not seem to be very likely. Players would need to be relying on it actually killing things which maybe it could as it’s gun is not terrible, but then you risk its survivability.
So really, the reanimator needs to be 1) drastically reduced in points, 2) its buff to RP needs to be an aura 3) it needs an improvement in durability. Ideally 2 out of 3 of these things need to happen.
Sorry for the rant, but I hate when GW introduces a new unit with garbage rules.
The reanimator is utter junk, it is one of those units where GW just had no freaking clue what it was doing. Even with character protection it would be junk, without it it's an actual joke - the only question is whether the joke is on GW or the community.
. That may not be satisfying from a gameplay perspective, but it seems straightforward.
) I know they got 4 more wounds, but did they get any other durability buffs to avoid them crumpling?
here's a quick first hash at a theory crafted list based around those sweet, juicy Spyders and their Tech Bois:
