So while we may not have an auto-include solution for GEQ, we should still have a tactics discussion on how to handle it, regardless if it's that popular in your meta or not. The ideal list should have some strategy for any opposing list. Not a "Well, I'm against a horde or LoW army, this looks like a loss" mentality.
For melee horde and DS bombs, I intend to include a few units of scarabs as a screen. First case, meet the melee horde and lock them up from getting to your main units. Second case, for DS bombs, keep them out of RF or pile in range from your main units. You won't be able to avoid the DS, but you can mitigate its effectiveness. Similarly, if they don't wipe out the scarabs and target your main units instead, charge them and lock them up.
For imperial soup brigade, like other have mentioned, the damage output is pretty low on these guys at 24". You're setting yourself up for a bad time if you get in RF range of them though. Unless you're trying to steal an objective or don't have any better target, I wouldn't bother targeting these.
For LoW and ++ saves, bring those C'tan powers, scarab MW, and high volume of shots. Tesla and rapid fire will shine right here.
So balanced army for me would look something like,
Nephrekh dynasty: Bring assault weapons and outrun horde armies long enough to wittle them down. Easy way to get your wraiths in their back line. DS your destroyers so they don't get wiped turn 1. Ez range closer for your C'tan powers. If your spending 225+ on one unit, some value should be coming from it every turn. Scarabs multi use as screens, tarpit, and mortal wound machines!
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Shuddl
Your strat sounds very similar to what I'm aiming for. Thanks for the write up!
Does the abysall staffs effect still work on low leadership model hordes that get artificial leadership like Nids / Orks?
…Since the 'Phaerons will' strategy is use a characters MWBD ability for a second time in a turn, does that mean Imotekhs version that lets him MWBD 2 squads in a turn would let him MWBD 4 units if this was used? Or would he only get one extra use of mwbd for a total of 3 if the ability just lets him use the mwbd ability a second time?
Is the orb of eternity just a +1 rez orb, or is it Use the +1 effect once per battle and then it is still a rez orb so you can use that effect after?
Therion wrote: You seem to have a lot of rage towards the ITC format despite its obvious popularity in the US.
That said, where I play in Europe we don’t use ITC for anything (We use rulebook, Chapter Approved, Beta rules and the ETCFAQ). We use Eternal War and Maelstrom missions simultaneously (2 sets of objectives, Eternal War and the Tactical Objectives). Our tournaments have more time allocated per game than in the US and 95% are played to natural completion.
I’m frankly amused by your hostility. All I did was point out an obvious flaw in the Necron strengths and weaknesses -analysis. The reality is that hordes exist and they are very competitive and flexible. Everyone could’ve just been polite and say that my concerns about Necrons don’t apply to them because their meta is different, but instead people went to war against the standard tournament meta like it’s my fault personally that competitive people like to push their army lists to the extreme limits.
I'll quickly point out one more thing here I didn't point out. Your ascribing your meta as being the universal standard, and posting lists with 150-250 models and claiming your games are finishing 95% of the time. You must be playing incredibly long games... Average game length I have played in is 2.5 hours including set up.
Yes, the tournaments here have the luxury of giving 3 hours per match, and players are given bonus soft scores for finishing the game in time. It’s a legitimate issue and a talking point, but not one that can’t be solved globally.
Therion wrote: Yes, the tournaments here have the luxury of giving 3 hours per match, and players are given bonus soft scores for finishing the game in time. It’s a legitimate issue and a talking point, but not one that can’t be solved globally.
I agree, but that right there is just one way in which your meta is unique. That was my main point, you can't assume your meta across the globe. Also, and this doesn't necessarily pertain to your therion, but the idea that because someones meta is not a certain paradigm it shouldn't dictate whether their ideas or concerns are suddenly laughable or invalid. Size of the event, missions, round length etc. all have major impacts on the success of certain builds.
Which is pointless. Those GT's are all garbage lol. Half the player packets are full of house ruled or bogus callings or they have patched the missions to oblivion. On top of that, those games get a max of 2 turns in. GEQ are running amuck currently BECAUSE so many suckers cater to that environment.
Currently players in those environments know exactly how much time a game has, exactly how the missions will be scored and laughably use set objective placement. One of the MOST tactical elements in the game, and these mega events removed it. It;s a farce, all you need to do currently is hop to the codex that gets the most bodies for the cheapest cost and has a reliable way to advance deploy.
I have played those lists in pick up games where I can't be slow played using random book missions and utterly removed them. Guardsmen are always good for screening, but currently hordes are ruining events. That needs to be separated here. Playing ITC is not playing 40k. It's like Pathfinder, similar, but modified heavily. They tell you where objectives are, the game will last 6 turn (which is a joke when they can't make it to 3) and on top of that they home brew mission objectives entirely. The reaper is the most awful designed objective I have ever seen for example. Writing a mission where taking a heavy weapon team circumvents the point? Play testers eh?
Look dude, you might be a good player, but it's hard to take anyone seriously when you say things like "tournament lists are a joke, I can beat them all". Where are your GT victories? Got any podium finishes from 50-100+ person events? Me neither, but I'm not the one calling out the people who do crush tournaments on a consistent basis.
If you think the only reason people win events is because of slow play, you've never seriously competed at a top table.
I didn't say I can beat them all. Where did I say that? I also never said slow play was the sole factor, so please stop trying to speak for me. Slow play is THE biggest talking point currently btw, it may not be the sole factor, but it's currently one of the biggest.
BTW the biggest tournament in the world just concluded a little over a month ago and GEQ were there in force but 2 made it to the top 8 and both were bizarre builds unlike what people are discussing. There was even a primaris blood angel list in the top 8 wrecking face.
Edit: I'll add, those players winning are very good because they are aware of the format and how to gain an edge. Your the one that seems to think that net lists are where the buck stops. I am telling you it stops where it does based on the format.
As someone who went to LVO I can say those GEQ list were not bizarre at all. Really amazing yes but crazy not even in the slightest actually they just used mortars and infantry. It was for once a build of things displayed right on the box lol. No crazy tricks just a bunch of mortar infantry and give them Catachan with a ministrum priest for more toughness and attacks then a space marine. Also that Pure blood angel list did not wreck face sadly. He faced noobs member this is a Las vegas Open where any one can go. And he didnt face a single Eldar player till those last rounds which he got bent over. Sadly his was luck. And he also cheated against Jared the Alpha Legion player when he blew up his fire raptor playing out of order and they didnt catch till after. LETS get back to the topic though because right now we are all just talking about things that dont matter or things we dont actually know about.
Lothmar wrote: Does the abysall staffs effect still work on low leadership model hordes that get artificial leadership like Nids / Orks?
…Since the 'Phaerons will' strategy is use a characters MWBD ability for a second time in a turn, does that mean Imotekhs version that lets him MWBD 2 squads in a turn would let him MWBD 4 units if this was used? Or would he only get one extra use of mwbd for a total of 3 if the ability just lets him use the mwbd ability a second time?
Is the orb of eternity just a +1 rez orb, or is it Use the +1 effect once per battle and then it is still a rez orb so you can use that effect after?
I see you keep asking. We don't know really.
1. How I would play it, is that the Abyssal Staff works against base leadership for the squad (So, Like a Ork Nob's Leadership in a boy squad)
2. I believe Phaeron's will would give you an additional use of MWBD, making Immotek's total go to 3.
3. I took it to be a Rez Orb that grants an additional +1 to Reanimations when used.
@blue Beetle, that's awesome, glad to here you were able to go. I had everything in order this year but then couldn't make the trip. I have a strange schedule so it's hard to get the time coupled with logistical pains. Only flights I could arrange required an entire days layover in Jersey both ways....
The fact that a BA player got to top 8 though kind of sheds hope on the GEQ/cron situation. BTW he is a very good player, featured on FLG as well. I think suggesting he had a free ride to the top 8 is a bit unfair.
I read lightning field and thought to myself 'its a shame you cant give this to a nearby allied unit' to extend the effect.
Admittedly I kind of chuckled at the idea of a Catacomb command barge side profile charging multiple potential targets just to cause as many potential mortal wounds as possible. *chuckle*
The Necron Leak video has finally been taken down. Glad I downloaded it just in case!
For dealing with Superheavies/LoW spam, is the Pylon not an attractive choice? It's certainly expensive, but less so than the TVault, and provides a 5++ aura to all Necron units within its radius.
I find it is only really attractive if that super heavy/low spam has the 'titanic' keyword since that's more damage. ^_^
Now as part of an artillery support line with a few DDA's and some support staff like spyders (to round out a heavy detachment) while your 2 TV's (to fill out the low detachment ) keep them distracted
Red Corsair wrote: @blue Beetle, that's awesome, glad to here you were able to go. I had everything in order this year but then couldn't make the trip. I have a strange schedule so it's hard to get the time coupled with logistical pains. Only flights I could arrange required an entire days layover in Jersey both ways....
The fact that a BA player got to top 8 though kind of sheds hope on the GEQ/cron situation. BTW he is a very good player, featured on FLG as well. I think suggesting he had a free ride to the top 8 is a bit unfair.
LVO was awesome but lots of headaches. I hear BAO is the most fun of all the events
Yeah no he is an amazing player Id never take that from him but it did show that the only known player he faced from a team was Jared and he beat Jared with an illegal move on accident I dont think it was on purpose at all. And then when he faced Eldar known player he completely crumbled. He also stated this edition he hasn't won a single tournament with that army and then at LVO he's in top 8 so he was so surprised but I do think he's very good just got a good draw of rounds at first. Even a top soup player said if he would have faced against the death guard tank list he would have lost but he never did and that guys list didnt get to the top at all.
'Nephrekh:
Advance 6" automatically (7" with MWBD) and ignore terrain & models.'
Could this be used with assault weapons to kite models? The tesla weapons could seem coold. Keep a model nearby that gives +1 to hit. So just adapt as you need, keeping 24" away, or just melt a unit.
Wraights probably also could help in this. Are there any other units that could benefit from movement?
While yes its helpful for overall coverage of area Im not seeing a way to advance and still charge. Granted if you're looking to have highly mobile assault weapon units this will get you where you need to go.
Heck if the enemy positions badly too or is using defenses or line of sight blocking terrain to keep a model safe you can probably really surprise them by walking straight through it instead of having to waste your inches climbing etc. *Moves straight through screen at barricade and shoots units beyond*
It's not overly useful on our flyers, in that they can already ignore models by going over etc. Though for cases of cover and extra distance it might be a good surprise... Praets still not dynasty so they cant go ham with this...
I'd say it'd be ok for a certain style of Triarch stalker play, but Sautek is probably better for most artillery.
Probably very helpful for objective holding scarabs.
Might help Repair spyders keep up with vehicles they're supporting...
Therion wrote: Yes, the tournaments here have the luxury of giving 3 hours per match, and players are given bonus soft scores for finishing the game in time. It’s a legitimate issue and a talking point, but not one that can’t be solved globally.
I agree, but that right there is just one way in which your meta is unique. That was my main point, you can't assume your meta across the globe. Also, and this doesn't necessarily pertain to your therion, but the idea that because someones meta is not a certain paradigm it shouldn't dictate whether their ideas or concerns are suddenly laughable or invalid. Size of the event, missions, round length etc. all have major impacts on the success of certain builds.
It's not unique in the slightest. Just because this is an English speaking forum doesn't mean that extremely skilled 40K players and active scenes don't exist in countries like Germany, Poland, Italy, Russia, Belgium etc. And yes, I stick to the word laughable. Statements like 'GEQ aren't really played at tournaments' without any sort of disclaimers are exactly that. Laughable. I'm not sure why you take offence in comments like that, considering it's not you who posted that comment, and you're usually trying to keep an objective view on things.
Jesus, GTFO with measuring who has bigger tesla rod... it reminds me 5th ed discussions in IG threads...
Can we, pleeeeaaaase, just talk about units and strategies from the beta codex? Because, surprise, surprise, there is middle ground (a lot of it actually) between "tournament lists" and "just throw some models into bag, because you like it"...
---- are we there? yes? -----
Personally Im slightly annoyed with Pretorians...I cant see their place...its utility and price is simply hobbling them IMO...
As for the GEQ, anything is dangerous if you are not prepared for it, and it's hard for the leaked codex necrons to prepare for GEQ. It doesn't matter if the list that is strong against Necrons is destined to finish 1-5, it's still a problem for us because it will be hard for us to be on the correct side of the dash.
Immortals and tomb blades with tesla are our best bet. Fortunately, both of those units are fairly good overall, so aren't a chore to include in a tournament list. I think mephrit gives them the best dynasty code for tesla and the best stratagem to deal with GEQ (talent for annihilation). With that as a required component of your army, what kind of list do you build around that to handle other army styles?
Maybe we leave our CC units in the box and focus on short range firefights and mobility?
I'm going to focus on Destroyers, TB with different loadouts and DDA, maybe Ctan. This is not super competitive but might work.
Maybe Annihilation barges loadout will work, they move, ignore heavy penalties. Not the best one for sure.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: I'm going to focus on Destroyers, TB with different loadouts and DDA, maybe Ctan. This is not super competitive but might work.
Maybe Annihilation barges loadout will work, they move, ignore heavy penalties. Not the best one for sure.
Annihilation Barges feel too expensive to be honest.
Yeah, I'm actually surprised anni barges didn't get a price cut. Maybe they will drop some of the points on release, because apparently the leak is a beta.
Grimgold wrote: As for the GEQ, anything is dangerous if you are not prepared for it, and it's hard for the leaked codex necrons to prepare for GEQ. It doesn't matter if the list that is strong against Necrons is destined to finish 1-5, it's still a problem for us because it will be hard for us to be on the correct side of the dash.
Immortals and tomb blades with tesla are our best bet. Fortunately, both of those units are fairly good overall, so aren't a chore to include in a tournament list. I think mephrit gives them the best dynasty code for tesla and the best stratagem to deal with GEQ (talent for annihilation). With that as a required component of your army, what kind of list do you build around that to handle other army styles?
Maybe we leave our CC units in the box and focus on short range firefights and mobility?
Gru Chimes in:
Spoiler:
Does Talent for Annihilation work better than Methodical Destruction? I like that it's 1 CP, but it only affects one unit per turn.
For Mephrit I'm not sure if I would change the core of the list too much. Area denial and screening are important, so even if I wasn't using it for Destroyers, an Outrider detachment for Scarabs would be in most of the lists I make.
What warlord would you run in Mephrit? I'm not sold on the character sniper yet, because of how close it wants me to get. If I'm in that range, I'd personally be tempted by Thrall of the Silent King with a Lightning Field, instead.
I wasn’t saying that because other armies can deal with GEQ that talking about dealing them was invalidated, we got sidetracked, I was just curious if those lists actually perform well (as they wouldn’t fare so well in the meta here) and it devolved from there
My point was, while those extreme lists may be hard to deal with, they are hard to deal with for a lot of armies and shouldn’t be the sole focus for a necron army, as if you build to counter a specific style you will probably not even come up against it. For example at a 60 man tournament recently I doubled down on hyper elite, anti horde style marines and only faced tank gunlines all day
I think every solid necron list should at least have some tools to deal with GEQ, but they should also be able to answer TEQ and MEQ while still being able to kill some tanks a turn.
Due to how low volume our guns are, Necrons are just as vulnerable to facing 18 IG tanks as they are 200 IG bodies.
We should play to our strengths, this is what this forum is for, is finding those strengths, and then individually we assess our metas (which are WILDLY different if what everyone says here is legit) and build lists to suit.
As we don’t play ITC over here our meta is more elite, vehicle and superheavy focused, so I am more looking into ways to kill multiple tanks than I am clearing 1000000000 grunts.
My apologies if I came off indignant and dismissive before.
Overlord with Indomitable Conqueror, Veil of Darkness; start on the board, apply MWBD, use the Veil to get within 10".
Also considered Maynarkh using Nephrekh rules, with Kutlakh to give Advance + Charge. It costs more -- about 2 Overlords -- but it doesn't take your Warlord or relic to do it.
I don't like using Night Scythes, not so much because of the cost, but because Tesla Destructors aren't very good anymore. They may be better with Mephrit, delivering other weapons into 12" range while benefitting from AP-1.
The Deceiver bomb takes far too much investment, and Z+O are more likewise too expensive, for me.
Does Talent for Annihilation work better than Methodical Destruction? I like that it's 1 CP, but it only affects one unit per turn.
For Mephrit I'm not sure if I would change the core of the list too much. Area denial and screening are important, so even if I wasn't using it for Destroyers, an Outrider detachment for Scarabs would be in most of the lists I make.
What warlord would you run in Mephrit? I'm not sold on the character sniper yet, because of how close it wants me to get. If I'm in that range, I'd personally be tempted by Thrall of the Silent King with a Lightning Field, instead.
It depends, Methodical Destruction targets a single enemy unit, but gives everyone shooting at it a +1 to hit. Talent for Annihilation targets one of your units, and gives the unit exploding sixes. The potential issue with Methodical Destruction is that it's likely to be overkill against MSU, where as with talent for annihilation you can split your fire. So Methodical Destruction has a higher upper limit if you are shooting at a fatty like magnus or mortarion (and especially when combined with a stalker), but from turn to turn a max sized unit of tomb blades with tesla carbines will probably benefit more from talent for annihilation. It's hard to mathhammer because the best case for each of them is so different, but if imperial soup is your concern I think talent for annihilation will be the winner.
As for warlord trait, Immortal pride seems likely since we run short on ways to deal with psychic shenanigans, unless I'm running a CCB, then merciless tyrant cause they can hit characters 30" away with a tesla cannon.
Honestly if those Beta Smite limitations come out, we really don't need much to worry about on that end. I'd probably try and take advantage of that morale bubble thing with it myself but I've never been big on large squads.
So my meta is gonna consist of my brother playing dark angels. Nothing else. I am not too sure of what his army is but I do know that we only have about 1000 pts each and that he has some normal marines and some bikes. What would be a good build against it? Currently I have the SC box, 12 more warriors, 5 immortals, a cryptek and 3 tomb blades.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly if those Beta Smite limitations come out, we really don't need much to worry about on that end.
I wouldn't be so sure, playing a few itc tournaments with the beta rules in place, even without smite being used very much denies are very potent as some races such as eldar, nids and daemons can have some pretty insance combos using their powers.
The only issue is that unless you use tomb sentinels, one deny without any bonuses will not particularly do much when the users in these races usually have some decent buffs to their tests, i.e. magnus and eldar farseers or even warlock conclaves that are out of range, as well as a cp in their back pocket prepared to improve the test they think you will deny.
denies are still important without smite but we still just don't have enough to use them. Although something could be said about fairness and our un-stoppable ctan powers...
epaemil wrote: So my meta is gonna consist of my brother playing dark angels. Nothing else. I am not too sure of what his army is but I do know that we only have about 1000 pts each and that he has some normal marines and some bikes. What would be a good build against it? Currently I have the SC box, 12 more warriors, 5 immortals, a cryptek and 3 tomb blades.
That's actually a pretty well balanced force, dark angels work best as gunline (which si to say they sit back and shoot you), but Tactical marines are going to have a hard time dealing with how efficient your troops are, I'd grab a few more scarabs to screen his ravenwing units (super-cheap on ebay), and plan on maybe adding some wraiths down the road. As for the force, I'd go for battalion, with the overlord and the cryptek as your HQ, two min sized units of warriors and the immortals for troops, and then the stalker, the tomb blades and the scarabs should all fit in a 1k list. If he is starting from the dark vengeance box, he will have five terminators and those will be rough, because he'll deep strike them on you and charge, which will probably not give you time to shoot them. Just have your unit in CC fall back and then focus them down cause they are pricey and you can take a dent out of his forces by dropping them. Good luck and welcome to the hobby, hopefully it will be a good edition for necrons.
Back onto the idea of a Mephrit list with tools to take on GEQ, but not suck at everything else, here is a first pass at what I'm thinking, 3 detachments to get more CP, I thought about trying to go for a brigade, but getting 3 elites into a non-gimped list is brutally expensive.
My reading of the rules, a canoptek cloak gives living metal a D3, and a fabricator claw array can repair a D3 on top of living metal, so it seems like they stack. That makes a doomsday ark much more reliable than 3 heavy destroyers. I couldn't resist the CCB and merciless tyrant for sniping support characters like librarians and such. The big question is do i drop the gloom prisim and change one of the destroyers into a heavy destroyer.
epaemil wrote: So my meta is gonna consist of my brother playing dark angels. Nothing else. I am not too sure of what his army is but I do know that we only have about 1000 pts each and that he has some normal marines and some bikes. What would be a good build against it? Currently I have the SC box, 12 more warriors, 5 immortals, a cryptek and 3 tomb blades.
If it is only 1000 points then going with a max squad warriors might be a decent option, as reanimation gets better the smaller the game. get some more immortals to get a squad of 10 with gauss and maybe build up the tomb blades some more with some gauss and shadowlooms. Using gauss will bring down those pesky 3+ saves a tad and the extra strength on the immortals and tomb blades will help with the T5 bikes
Thinking about the T.Vault again,
It's the only "C'tan" that can benefit from Dynastic buffs.
If we wanted to give it a code & strategem to use, I'm trying to figure out the best combo here.
So obviously Sautekh's Methodical Destruction (Meth.D) strat and Mephrit's Talent for Annihilation (TfA) stand out the most. But which one would really make it shine?
• Meth.D will be making Tesla proc on 5+, so 20 Tesla Sphere shots would be generating a lot of extra hits. Plus it makes the C'tan shots hit on a 2+ instead of the 3+ it normally has. Downside being it's only against the one unit, but not too bad against huge units. (Bonus being everything else Sautekh in the army is also going to benefit against that one unit).
• TfA will be generating extra hit dice on 6s in ADDITION to the 2 extra hits that you'd get from the Tesla Sphere shots. Those extra hit dice can then potentially go on to themselves score extra 2 hits on a 6. With a little luck, that's an exponentially amount of hits this thing will be putting out. Bonus being all of those Tesla shots will have -1AP, too. In that the T.Vault will be able to split its fire amongst several different targets if it wants to, that's pretty good against MSU. (It's lucky they made the C'tan shots come in the movement phase, because if they could benefit from TfA it'd be MW generate-O-rama.)
skoffs wrote: Thinking about the T.Vault again,
It's the only "C'tan" that can benefit from Dynastic buffs.
If we wanted to give it a code & strategem to use, I'm trying to figure out the best combo here.
So obviously Sautekh's Methodical Destruction (Meth.D) strat and Mephrit's Talent for Annihilation (TfA) stand out the most. But which one would really make it shine?
• Meth.D will be making Tesla proc on 5+, so 20 Tesla Sphere shots would be generating a lot of extra hits. Plus it makes the C'tan shots hit on a 2+ instead of the 3+ it normally has. Downside being it's only against the one unit, but not too bad against huge units. (Bonus being everything else Sautekh in the army is also going to benefit against that one unit).
• TfA will be generating extra hit dice on 6s in ADDITION to the 2 extra hits that you'd get from the Tesla Sphere shots. Those extra hit dice can then potentially go on to themselves score extra 2 hits on a 6. With a little luck, that's an exponentially amount of hits this thing will be putting out. Bonus being all of those Tesla shots will have -1AP, too. In that the T.Vault will be able to split its fire amongst several different targets if it wants to, that's pretty good against MSU. (It's lucky they made the C'tan shots come in the movement phase, because if they could benefit from TfA it'd be MW generate-O-rama.)
Idk if im going to spend this much points id rather go pylon and be able to snipe lord of wars and blow up vehicles easily.
Just a note about the TV, it can't gain from the dynasty buffs, it has the <dynasty> keyword but also has the <c'tan shards> keyword, so it can be in your dynasty and can use stratagems, but cannot gain dynasty buff as <C'Tan Shards> are specifically excluded
Hopefully this will be FAQed but I am pretty sure this is intentional by GW
Thoughts? Obviously some kind of nod from GW that Necrons don't have great answers to objective squatting?
Isn't this the same "troops-steal-objectives"-rule that all codex-troops have gained in 8th so far?
True, but a blob of 20 Warriors sitting on an objective can hold it for a long time, especially with a Cryptek. With Obsec, theyll need to be killed down to the last man.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: I'm thinking about 3x6 TB with particle beamers as infantry killers: cost less, S6 means wounding on 2.
With Mephrit's Code for AP-1 that might be alright, but I have a feeling Tesla Carbines still have the edge.
Has anyone done the math on that yet? (18 S6 AP-1 PB shots or 24 S5 AP-1 TC shots vs GEQ)
I'm seeing people talking up the Mephrit unique strat but it seems fairly useless to me. If you use it on a unit of 10 Tesla Immortals for example it will, on average, get you 3 extra shots.
1CP for an extra one and a half Immortals shooting it a terrible waste of CP. Maybe on a TV where you're getting 3 extra shots on a better profile but it still seems wasteful.
It really shouldn't say "unmodified 6" IMO. It would then stack with MWBD and be decent, although still not as good as some of the other things we can do for 1CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iGuy91 wrote: Fun thought exercise using the new codex. How would you now best get lychguard into assault, using what we know of the new dex?
Here are the best options as I see them:
OLord with Veil and reroll charge WL trait- With MWBD that's an 8" with a reroll and you don't need to do it 1st turn so you have time to clear screens. It only gives about a 2/3 chance of making the charge though.
Zahndrekh + Obyron + Veiltek- Veiltek takes NZ to within 9" of the target, Obyron can then take the LG within 3" of the target. With MWBD that's a 2" charge. This is probably a bit too expensive but it has the advantage of not needing to happen turn 1 so you can clear screens first, and it gets you very close.
Deceiver + Zahndrekh + Obyron- Deceiver infiltrates NZ 12" from target. NZ then moves and advances an average of 8" before Obyron and the LG land right next to their target. This gets you very close but it can only be done on turn 1 when screens will get in the way. You also might not get 1st turn.
Monolith- Once it's in place the new strat lets you teleport the Lychguard within 3" of it and they can move and charge normally. That's an average of 16" from the monolith. Won't happen before turn 2 which may be too slow but gives you time to clear screens. Your opponent might notice the monolith right in their face and see it coming lol.
Im very sceptical about offensive Lychguard. Their main problem is that its very expensive and mostly not 100% guaranteed to get them into enemy lines fast.
And then you have a slow moving unit in the middle of the board, which can be easily outmanoeuvred by a smart opponent. They can be valuable against castles and such, or as a counter charge unit, but they are just to one dimnesional for my taste.
Wraiths can do basically everything Lychguard can do but without support and they are a lot faster.
Yeah LG don't seem great. I have 10 though so I'm going to give them a go.
Do people think Quantum Shielding spam could be any good?
I wrote a quick list just using models I own:
Spoiler:
Nephrekh Outrider:
CCB- Lightning Field- Voidscythe
6X Destroyers (Deep Strike)
6x Wraith
7x Scarabs
Sautekh Spearhead:
Cloak-tek
Triarch Stalker + Twin Heavy Gauss
Anni Barge + Gauss Cannon
Anni Barge + Gauss Cannon
Anni Barge + Gauss Cannon
DDA DDA
Considering it's not optimized this seems surprisingly ok. 7 QS vehicles with a canoptek screen and a repair Cryptek + the compulsory Destroyer deep strike.
The Vehicles can all move and shoot thanks to Sautekh and the canopteks get 6" advance from Nephrekh.
Do people think Quantum Shielding spam could be any good?
I wrote a quick list just using models I own:
Spoiler:
Nephrekh Outrider:
CCB- Lightning Field- Voidscythe
6X Destroyers (Deep Strike)
6x Wraith
7x Scarabs
Sautekh Spearhead:
Cloak-tek
Triarch Stalker + Twin Heavy Gauss
Anni Barge + Gauss Cannon
Anni Barge + Gauss Cannon
Anni Barge + Gauss Cannon
DDA DDA
Considering it's not optimized this seems surprisingly ok. 7 QS vehicles with a canoptek screen and a repair Cryptek + the compulsory Destroyer deep strike.
The Vehicles can all move and shoot thanks to Sautekh and the canopteks get 6" advance from Nephrekh.
Except the stalker doesn't benefit from codes (really hate that aspect) but I've considered similar. It seems odd from 7th but you can use annhilation barges as chargers since they have high movement, assault guns, and the fly keyword to disengage the turn after. Really helpful for tying units for a turn.
I feel like it's going to be very hard to get much out of a repair Cryptek if you have more than a couple of vehicles. Unlike a Techmarine, which can move and then repair, the Cryptek repairs right at the start of your turn, so you have to have ended your last turn within 3" of the thing you want to repair.
Dionysodorus wrote: I feel like it's going to be very hard to get much out of a repair Cryptek if you have more than a couple of vehicles. Unlike a Techmarine, which can move and then repair, the Cryptek repairs right at the start of your turn, so you have to have ended your last turn within 3" of the thing you want to repair.
I think the idea is that a repair Cryptek would never leave 3" from a vehicle for this very reason. There is no need to move to 3" when you stay there the whole game.
Dionysodorus wrote: I feel like it's going to be very hard to get much out of a repair Cryptek if you have more than a couple of vehicles. Unlike a Techmarine, which can move and then repair, the Cryptek repairs right at the start of your turn, so you have to have ended your last turn within 3" of the thing you want to repair.
I think the idea is that a repair Cryptek would never leave 3" from a vehicle for this very reason. There is no need to move to 3" when you stay there the whole game.
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Right, so if you have just two vehicles that's probably workable. But if you have 6 or 7 then you either have to clump them all up in a circle around the Cryptek, which you probably don't want to do, or else you have to leave some more than 3" from him. And then those are the ones that get shot.
epaemil wrote: So my meta is gonna consist of my brother playing dark angels. Nothing else. I am not too sure of what his army is but I do know that we only have about 1000 pts each and that he has some normal marines and some bikes. What would be a good build against it? Currently I have the SC box, 12 more warriors, 5 immortals, a cryptek and 3 tomb blades.
Personally, I would say a good build is whatever you're interested in. It doesn't sound like your brother is exactly building tournament lists, and you've got a good mix.
Between me and my brother, game systems tended to last longer when we were both interested and having fun and experimenting, and not starting a bitter war of escalating optimized builds to kill each other. But my family's weird, so... take that with a grain of salt.
Dionysodorus wrote: I feel like it's going to be very hard to get much out of a repair Cryptek if you have more than a couple of vehicles. Unlike a Techmarine, which can move and then repair, the Cryptek repairs right at the start of your turn, so you have to have ended your last turn within 3" of the thing you want to repair.
Damn. I just assumed it was like a Tech marine. Still probably the best HQ to fill out the detachment for this list.
Anyone else think the Transcendant C'tan, despite his buffs, is still weaker than the Nightbringer?
The Nightbringer is 20 points cheaper, offers an amazing (if, short) ranged attack and is an absolute monster on combat against anything but T8 vehicles. He can make great use of the Entropic Strike ability.
Meanwhile, the Transcendant is worse in melee against non-vehicles, more expensive and doesn't have a ranged attack. Sure he can have a 3++ which is awesome or a second power of the C'tan. But is that really better than the Gaze?
The only way I can see the T. C'tan be better is if you roll really lucky on his Split Personality upgrades and get the 3++ and the 2nd power or something.
Dionysodorus wrote: I feel like it's going to be very hard to get much out of a repair Cryptek if you have more than a couple of vehicles. Unlike a Techmarine, which can move and then repair, the Cryptek repairs right at the start of your turn, so you have to have ended your last turn within 3" of the thing you want to repair.
I think the idea is that a repair Cryptek would never leave 3" from a vehicle for this very reason. There is no need to move to 3" when you stay there the whole game.
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Remember, he heals wounds for models with Living Metal
All your Necron HQs have this, functionally your Cryptek is better at healing characters than repairing vehicles, though for Necrons this is functionally the same thing.
iGuy91 wrote: Fun thought exercise using the new codex.
How would you now best get lychguard into assault, using what we know of the new dex?
Here are the best options as I see them:
OLord with Veil and reroll charge WL trait- With MWBD that's an 8" with a reroll and you don't need to do it 1st turn so you have time to clear screens. It only gives about a 2/3 chance of making the charge though.
Zahndrekh + Obyron + Veiltek- Veiltek takes NZ to within 9" of the target, Obyron can then take the LG within 3" of the target. With MWBD that's a 2" charge. This is probably a bit too expensive but it has the advantage of not needing to happen turn 1 so you can clear screens first, and it gets you very close.
Deceiver + Zahndrekh + Obyron- Deceiver infiltrates NZ 12" from target. NZ then moves and advances an average of 8" before Obyron and the LG land right next to their target. This gets you very close but it can only be done on turn 1 when screens will get in the way. You also might not get 1st turn.
Monolith- Once it's in place the new strat lets you teleport the Lychguard within 3" of it and they can move and charge normally. That's an average of 16" from the monolith. Won't happen before turn 2 which may be too slow but gives you time to clear screens. Your opponent might notice the monolith right in their face and see it coming lol.
Dont forget the Monolith that ejects Nemesor who then cloaks in Obyron and crew option.
Granted this is a turn 2 build where you drop the monolith turn 1 and then walk nem out turn 2 or if the enemy blows up the mono you emergency port out nem and another unit. This combo can be made to work for turn 1 if you also invest in Deciever and GI the monolith up.
Admittedly though~ such lychguard would have to be Sautekh which is somewhat wasteful (assuming you are using Nems MWBD / obyron ghost walk on them). So this might be more useful for getting a shooting into support range and then the shooting forces provide covering fire for the actual melee forces.
But that 3" to 1" charge (depending on if Nem moves or not) is pretty darn tastey... (12 to 9 with mon port to 3 with 6" out from nem with ghost)
Doctoralex wrote: Anyone else think the Transcendant C'tan, despite his buffs, is still weaker than the Nightbringer?
The Nightbringer is 20 points cheaper, offers an amazing (if, short) ranged attack and is an absolute monster on combat against anything but T8 vehicles. He can make great use of the Entropic Strike ability.
Meanwhile, the Transcendant is worse in melee against non-vehicles, more expensive and doesn't have a ranged attack. Sure he can have a 3++ which is awesome or a second power of the C'tan. But is that really better than the Gaze?
The only way I can see the T. C'tan be better is if you roll really lucky on his Split Personality upgrades and get the 3++ and the 2nd power or something.
I think Trans real strength lies in that he has great abilities on 2-3rds of the dice options so rolling twice is a fairly ok gamble.
I'd be very happy with 1,2,4 & 5 and 3 is still pretty good.
I personally think Transdimensional Displacement will be amazing for positioning ctan powers as well as manuevering around the battlefield/enemy lines since they are a flier. Shame you cant charge after advancing and without a range attack all this amounts to is a bit of 'oooga booga!' and perhaps a suicide explosion when they focus it down with guns or charge him.
Admittedly number 6 might be most useful if you get 4 since that'll easily let you position to deny a large bubble of enemy cover. *chuckle*
epaemil wrote: So my meta is gonna consist of my brother playing dark angels. Nothing else. I am not too sure of what his army is but I do know that we only have about 1000 pts each and that he has some normal marines and some bikes. What would be a good build against it? Currently I have the SC box, 12 more warriors, 5 immortals, a cryptek and 3 tomb blades.
Personally, I would say a good build is whatever you're interested in. It doesn't sound like your brother is exactly building tournament lists, and you've got a good mix.
Between me and my brother, game systems tended to last longer when we were both interested and having fun and experimenting, and not starting a bitter war of escalating optimized builds to kill each other. But my family's weird, so... take that with a grain of salt.
Yes you're probably right. He doesn't take it too seriously and we're playing just for casual fun. Would certainly not mind beating him though
Deceiver + Monolith for turn 1 Dimensional Corridor is also a possibility - albeit an expensive one that can get shut down by certain units. Best to let Lychguard lie for now, or use a Night Scythe and hope for the best.
Therion wrote: Yes, the tournaments here have the luxury of giving 3 hours per match, and players are given bonus soft scores for finishing the game in time. It’s a legitimate issue and a talking point, but not one that can’t be solved globally.
I agree, but that right there is just one way in which your meta is unique. That was my main point, you can't assume your meta across the globe. Also, and this doesn't necessarily pertain to your therion, but the idea that because someones meta is not a certain paradigm it shouldn't dictate whether their ideas or concerns are suddenly laughable or invalid. Size of the event, missions, round length etc. all have major impacts on the success of certain builds.
It's not unique in the slightest. Just because this is an English speaking forum doesn't mean that extremely skilled 40K players and active scenes don't exist in countries like Germany, Poland, Italy, Russia, Belgium etc. And yes, I stick to the word laughable. Statements like 'GEQ aren't really played at tournaments' without any sort of disclaimers are exactly that. Laughable. I'm not sure why you take offence in comments like that, considering it's not you who posted that comment, and you're usually trying to keep an objective view on things.
I just see no point in being blatantly rude and inflammatory. You could engage witrh the other player, whoim you know nothing about first THEN I can understand being frustrated. In a game with so many variables it 's unwise for a player to assume other local metas.
Another example of things you can't assume that impact a meta for example, terrain, terrain is probably the least consistent factor but one of the BIGGEST factor on how a meta is developed. I have played outside my local in events where the table may as well have been naked, I have also played in events where a tank or walker could not make it from one side of the board to the other. Maybe Northern Europe plays with nothing but GW terrain built from the box, but generally speaking most stores and events are using house made terrain.
I am not defending the content of his statement, all I am saying is you shouldn't make broad assumptions about other people. He is from Oz, maybe the inane cost of GW models effects their meta where folks don't want to remortgage their fething house to buy 200 guardsmen, IDK, but I do know there is no call for invalidating his scene. Simply acknowledge that his meta is different, and ask for feedback based on your own rather then demanding that every discussion be based on your standards of play.
^Please stop this incredibly boring and off topic back and forth.^
Requizen wrote: Deceiver + Monolith for turn 1 Dimensional Corridor is also a possibility - albeit an expensive one that can get shut down by certain units. Best to let Lychguard lie for now, or use a Night Scythe and hope for the best.
The Monolith seems surplus to requirements. Just GI Zahndrekh.
Requizen wrote: Deceiver + Monolith for turn 1 Dimensional Corridor is also a possibility - albeit an expensive one that can get shut down by certain units. Best to let Lychguard lie for now, or use a Night Scythe and hope for the best.
The Monolith seems surplus to requirements. Just GI Zahndrekh.
Look, I hadn't read all the complaints, I spoilered it, please take a breathe.
Requizen wrote: Deceiver + Monolith for turn 1 Dimensional Corridor is also a possibility - albeit an expensive one that can get shut down by certain units. Best to let Lychguard lie for now, or use a Night Scythe and hope for the best.
The Monolith seems surplus to requirements. Just GI Zahndrekh.
The monolith is good if you want 2+ other stuff brought in at a later point plus it's decent fire support and a good weapon soak.
Also now that it's more useful I might start including more cause it's iconic if I can afford with build.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm seeing people talking up the Mephrit unique strat but it seems fairly useless to me. If you use it on a unit of 10 Tesla Immortals for example it will, on average, get you 3 extra shots.
Using TfA on Immortals is a huge waste of that strat.
It definitely seems like it was made for Tesla, but because you can only use it on a single friendly unit you really want to get it on something with as many natural shots as possible.
10 T.Immortals is only going to net you 20 dice to use.
An A.Barge/NS will only get you 8 dice, so despite the increased S7, for these things it'd be even more of a waste.
Then there's the T.Vault, with its 4 Tesla Spheres pumping out 20 S7 shots. That's as many as the Immortals at the strength of the A.Barge, but I'm uncertain whether you can even use that strat with it.
I think the best thing to use Talent For Annihilation on would be a unit of 9x Tesla Tomb Blades.
Each one has two Tesla Carbines. That's 4 shots per bike. 36 dice to throw from one unit. How many of those are going to come up 6s? Each 6 gets two more hits, and with the strat active, will also add another dice to the pool, which could itself then generate more bonus hits if they come up 6s, too. Would it be enough to clear a chunk of a GEQ blob away? Maybe? With the AP-1 it would certainly help.
The only downside is they can't get MWBD or Lord's Will. Guess you could possibly get some help from a Stalker, though.
The best code specific strat is clearly the Nephrek DS one. This edition is all about whos killy thing kills whose first. I honestly wouldn't use any of the others with the exception of specifically building a Novohk army and using the fight twice ability.
I really want to make good use of a Mono but am struggling. Any list I make with it is instantly better when I take it out.
Building a list with some sort of "surprise! my army is in your face" trick seems doomed to fail. So I'm left with trying lists that drop a Mono away from my main force to give me extra tactical options during the game.
I think that might be true of all our teleporting tricks unfortunately. Trying to build an army wide strategy around it is a trap and they should instead be used for tactical flexibility.
I think the best thing to use Talent For Annihilation on would be a unit of 9x Tesla Tomb Blades.
Each one has two Tesla Carbines. That's 4 shots per bike. 36 dice to throw from one unit. How many of those are going to come up 6s?
6. Your one CP will get you 6 Tesla shots. The stratagem is useless.
20 buffed warriors with the -1AP trait coming out of a monolith is pretty scary. Especially since you'll have a second unit coming out the following turn.
On that note, im trying to think of the best scenario/way to make use of Methodical Destruction.
It seems like it'd be helpful for tesla~ but at the same time somewhat more useful on focusing down 'omg bring it down!' targets..
Can anyone think of an army/unit with enough wounds and a low enough save that might involve tesla shenanigans like this?
Part of me says start this salvo with the triarch stalker and then if it causes the wound activate it for the extra chance to get those 4+ tesla bursts (from the occassional immortals/etc unit with mwbd) by rerolling the 1's for everything following. *chuckle*
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One of my friends does chaos and I've seen them do horrors splitting into other colored horrors that split again before. Are all the other colors in this situation still part of the original unit, or are they now a separate unit? If they're all part of the same unit this might be a very valid target for this ability since they're 5+ invuls anyway and that's lots of wounds to eat through and plenty of potential hits.
Red Corsair wrote: The best code specific strat is clearly the Nephrek DS one. This edition is all about whos killy thing kills whose first. I honestly wouldn't use any of the others with the exception of specifically building a Novohk army and using the fight twice ability.
Agreed on Nephrek being the best.
Sautekh is not one you would use every game but can be very good against targets with lots of wounds- hordes or Lords Of War.
Nihilakh seems like something you can build a good trick around. 2++ wraith or Lychguard maybe.
Talent for Annihilation would be best used on a unit of six Mephrit Destroyers. If you take a full squad of six, you naturally have 18 S6 AP-3 D3 shots, AP-4 inside 12"
If you spend another CP for Extermination Protocols, the efficiency of that unit goes through the roof. With shots that powerful, any extra hit rolls beyond your natural 18 can make a lot of difference, and are very likely to hit and wound.
Arguably it's overkill against most targets but against something like a Land Raider you'd be hard pressed to find a better way to inflict damage
On that note, im trying to think of the best scenario/way to make use of Methodical Destruction.
It seems like it'd be helpful for tesla~ but at the same time somewhat more useful on focusing down 'omg bring it down!' targets..
Can anyone think of an army/unit with enough wounds and a low enough save that might involve tesla shenanigans like this?
Part of me says start this salvo with the triarch stalker and then if it causes the wound activate it for the extra chance to get those 4+ tesla bursts (from the occassional immortals/etc unit with mwbd) by rerolling the 1's for everything following. *chuckle*
Stalker can't trigger the strat sadly.
It's good on tesla vs something like 30 Orks. If Magnus or Morty come charging at you then your whole army will want to get in on the methodical destruction.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dapperbandit wrote: Talent for Annihilation would be best used on a unit of six Mephrit Destroyers. If you take a full squad of six, you naturally have 18 S6 AP-3 D3 shots, AP-4 inside 12"
If you spend another CP for Extermination Protocols, the efficiency of that unit goes through the roof. With shots that powerful, any extra hit rolls beyond your natural 18 can make a lot of difference, and are very likely to hit and wound.
Arguably it's overkill against most targets but against something like a Land Raider you'd be hard pressed to find a better way to inflict damage
This may be the best use for it. But then you would be much better using Nephrekh to DS those destroyers.
It gives a 16% damage increase on whatever you use it on. Compare that to the Destroyer strat which gives an 80% increase for the same cost.
Hmm you're right. Went and checked the actual wording and it says the starting wound has to be from Sau. Thought that looked a little too convenient in the P1 summary.
Granted this strats value only more efficient with more Sautekh units, but at the same time that probably means a very specific build. Compared to doing a salad where every type of unit tends to fit in a niche for efficiency.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I really want to make good use of a Mono but am struggling. Any list I make with it is instantly better when I take it out.
Building a list with some sort of "surprise! my army is in your face" trick seems doomed to fail. So I'm left with trying lists that drop a Mono away from my main force to give me extra tactical options during the game.
I think that might be true of all our teleporting tricks unfortunately. Trying to build an army wide strategy around it is a trap and they should instead be used for tactical flexibility.
I think the best thing to use Talent For Annihilation on would be a unit of 9x Tesla Tomb Blades. Each one has two Tesla Carbines. That's 4 shots per bike. 36 dice to throw from one unit. How many of those are going to come up 6s?
6. Your one CP will get you 6 Tesla shots. The stratagem is useless.
It's a 17% increase in throughput, that doesn't seem useless. It's also useful for destroyers, as it basically gives you an extra destroyers worth of shooting at the low end. If you add extermination protocols (more chances to roll sixes), things get silly fast
See my above comment about Nephrekh DS being far more useful on the Destroyers.
It's 17% on anything and as destroyers are our killiest unit they are the best target. One Destroyer with extermination prots worth of shooting is probably just about worth 1CP- not amazing though. On anything else it's a terrible use of a CP.
Also, you maths looks off, I don't have time to check. 27 shots? The unit gets 18 and you think they kill 17 marines?
No debate about Nephrekh being the best Dynasty for Destroyers because of Translocation Crypt [TC].
But if for some reason you need to have your Destroyers be from a different Dynasty, Mephrit's not bad, especially with TfA.
Sautekh's not much use for them.
Not much point to Nihilakh Destroyers.
Novokh is probably the worst for them.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: See my above comment about Nephrekh DS being far more useful on the Destroyers.
It's 17% on anything and as destroyers are our killiest unit they are the best target. One Destroyer with extermination prots worth of shooting is probably just about worth 1CP- not amazing though. On anything else it's a terrible use of a CP.
Also, you maths looks off, I don't have time to check. 27 shots? The unit gets 18 and you think they kill 17 marines?
I was thinking 9 was the unit size for some reason, need more coffee I suppose. what didn't change 2 cp more than doubles the fire power of destroyers, so want to math up better uses of CP to prove your point?
Yeah the only reason I could see Sautekh Destroyers is if you were making a singular dynasty build to take advantage of MDest and so that you could fire after advancing.
The guaranteed 6" is the only real good thing about Neph for destroyers though to be honest cause they're already flier and can pretty much just go from A to B most times, albeit very thicc terrain could still be a nuisance at times I imagine.
But yeah TC deployment is very good at making me overlook that. o.~
I think sautekh destroyers are worth a mention as possibly being better than nephrek.
You can MSU them in units of 3 and have the possibility to move+advance and still shoot. Coupled with sautekh stratagem being one of the few that benefits MSU more than a single unit in that you buff all sautekh shooting at that target.
Surely being able to hide your unit in tactical reserves is good, but a table has terrain being behind Los blocking terrain and being able to move out from behind it to shoot is a thing, and the option to go 10+d6 and still shoot destroyers as sautekh has tactical relevance.
Taking the 6" advance with nephrek means your destroyers aren't shooting.
Blak - Yeah I see that 6" Nephrek advance for destroyers mostly being for 'yeah lets get away from that scary thing and just shoot it next turn' possibly by ducking through convenient cover that would inhibit its ability to give chase. Granted considering they're flier in the right situations you can still kite back and shoot.
Also ok to help make sure they can reach an objective while deep.
But yeah MSU is very useful for a destroyer block with several regular destroyer squads up front and a backline of HD teams all around a 6" aura bubble of a DL. Especially if there's a high value target for them to concentrate down.
blaktoof wrote: I think sautekh destroyers are worth a mention as possibly being better than nephrek.
You can MSU them in units of 3 and have the possibility to move+advance and still shoot. Coupled with sautekh stratagem being one of the few that benefits MSU more than a single unit in that you buff all sautekh shooting at that target.
Surely being able to hide your unit in tactical reserves is good, but a table has terrain being behind Los blocking terrain and being able to move out from behind it to shoot is a thing, and the option to go 10+d6 and still shoot destroyers as sautekh has tactical relevance.
Taking the 6" advance with nephrek means your destroyers aren't shooting.
It's of limited use - 10" Fly is already amazing mobility (better than most in the game, especially given the platform and damage output), and doesn't protect you from Alpha Strikes. It does have some use, of course, and as Lothmar says it makes them ok if you're taking a single Dynasty, but honestly there is not much reason to nowadays.
Talent for annihilation is just not a super impactful stratagem. Using it for mass small arms is not great because the return is so little for the CP.
You're better off going the other way and using it as a gambling strat on a unit of Heavy Destroyers in the hope of getting an extra Lascannon shot, etc. On a Destroyer unit perhaps too.
Requizen wrote: it makes them ok if you're taking a single Dynasty, but honestly there is not much reason to nowadays.
Yeah, I think it's pretty safe to say Necron Salad™ (because green, hurhur) is going to be a staple in most competitive builds we'll be seeing.
(Eg. Sautek/Mephrit Battalion lettuce, Nephrekh Outrider tomatoes, Nihilakh Spearhead dressing, etc.)
Am I right in thinking that we can use C'tan powers 1st and then use other "at the end of the movement phase" after we use the powers? E.g. C'tan powers and Veil of Darkness are both used at the end of the movement phase. Would it be okay to C'tan powers then Veil of Darkness?
Odrankt wrote: Am I right in thinking that we can use C'tan powers 1st and then use other "at the end of the movement phase" after we use the powers? E.g. C'tan powers and Veil of Darkness are both used at the end of the movement phase. Would it be okay to C'tan powers then Veil of Darkness?
Im guessing either or since they're both during the same portion~ Though if im wrong it'd be one or the other so verify since both would occur at the 'end' and therfor only one can be the last action?
ex: You can move units, blast power of the ctan and then pop him away.
Or comparitively you can move units, pop the ctan where it needs to go and then use the powers.
Though VoD is 1 dynasty infantry and Ctans dont have dynasties save for TV so that's the only one you could TP in via Nephrek Translocation Crypt... Cant really think of any way to move the normal Ctans in a way you're implying...
-Warlord with nighmare shroud artefact, -1Ld to enemies 6''.
-C'Tan deceiver. -1LD to enemies in 6''.
-2X 10 flayed ones -1LD to ennemies if they make one wound now i think.
Hopefully you can make enough damage on 2 standard units or 4 GEQ units and prop -3LD tests left and right. Its not that expensive. 704pts if you keep it minimal. Customize you way.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I think so, but I don't see how that would help, as I'm pretty sure Veil of Darkness can only affect <dynasty> infantry.
So no magical teleporting nightbringer. Even though that would be hilarious.
Oh I know that. I was just thinking that if an opponent has a screen/chaff protecting his valuable HQ or gunline. Could we C'tan power the Screen to deplete it, then VoD the bearer and infantry unit to said HQ or Gunline then go to town on them. Probably not a great tactic or anything but it add some flexibility to our Armies movement.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I think so, but I don't see how that would help, as I'm pretty sure Veil of Darkness can only affect <dynasty> infantry.
So no magical teleporting nightbringer. Even though that would be hilarious.
Though you can drop a god barn practically on top of them them through TC. ^_^
Yeah sadly the only teleporting of Ctans is through the deciever and no charge after so no blood covered NB save for some of the splatter from his shooting ability and powers. :(
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmmm, wait… Sautekh TV could trigger Methodical destruction - sadly in the same phase though… Would this help the Ctan power rolls for LoW TV spam!?
If so that's really amazing since the TV's already have a +1 to those already effectively...
ie - AMM becomes 4+, Cosmic fire on 2+, SA 4+, TT 2+ etc?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I think so, but I don't see how that would help, as I'm pretty sure Veil of Darkness can only affect <dynasty> infantry.
So no magical teleporting nightbringer. Even though that would be hilarious.
Though you can drop a god barn practically on top of them them through TC. ^_^
Yeah sadly the only teleporting of Ctans is through the deciever and no charge after so no blood covered NB save for some of the splatter from his shooting ability and powers. :(
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmmm, wait… Sautekh TV could trigger Methodical destruction - sadly in the same phase though… Would this help the Ctan power rolls for LoW TV spam!?
If so that's really amazing since the TV's already have a +1 to those already effectively...
ie - AMM becomes 4+, Cosmic fire on 2+, SA 4+, TT 2+ etc?
C'tan powers aren't hit rolls.
em_en_oh_pee wrote:Any thoughts on Tomb Sentinels?
Sautekh Sentinels got a buff to their Heavy weapons, and they can benefit from the Run + Shoot/Charge Stratagem if they want a bit of extra movement and to get into combat.
Overall, though, they're a bit on the expensive side still. They can use their own Tunneling ability to stay safe from Alphas, though, so that's something.
Since I really don't want to go with the teleportation dynasty, Mephrit all the way, I'm considering a Lord with the veil to just transport a destroyer unit and he gives a buff the turn after exterminator protocols are dropped. Thoughts?
anyone else kind of hoping they change lightning field to be 'model' instead of 'unit'?
Sure this might help cloak-tecs or lords who don’t have invuls normally but for the slot it seems a little underwhelming.
Heck if it was an aura for friendly dynasty units/infantry within 3-6" or a singular unit buff like mwbd that might also warm me up to it more. As is it's kind of 'meh'.
Req - Oh yeah~ forgot about him. *Ques the mental image of tokyo drifting into multiple units just to try and cause more mortal wounds because model can possibly touch more units with its broadside then from the front* xD
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Does the nightmare shrouds +1 apply to just armor, or does it also increase the effectiveness of invuls? Ex: Does overlord become 2 armor 3 invul, or just 2 armor and invul stays 4?
Lothmar wrote: Req - Oh yeah~ forgot about him. *Ques the mental image of tokyo drifting into multiple units just to try and cause more mortal wounds because model can possibly touch more units with its broadside then from the front* xD
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Does the nightmare shrouds +1 apply to just armor, or does it also increase the effectiveness of invuls? Ex: Does overlord become 2 armor 3 invul, or just 2 armor and invul stays 4?
It affects the Save Characteristic on the Unit Profile, which is only Armor. Invulns are under Special Abilities.
I've created a battlescribe data file for the leaks, to use it just drag and drop it into Users/<username>/BattleScribe/data/Warhammer...
and then select Necrons from the list. Make sure you backup the old Necrons data file!
Don't go too fast - Forgebane is being reviewed on some channels, and you can see things like the Canoptek Cloak is 10 points instead of 5, and it looks like Wraiths might be AP-2 Damage 1 instead of 2. Staff of Light is 18 (current price instead of leaked Beta Rules) as well.
I hope they will adjust points because 50 ppm is too much.
You can see a bit of blurry points in that video, looks like they might be back to 38? Hard to read though. Same price with better AP and the strats is... ok, but not as good as 2Damage.
drakerocket wrote: I will feel very very silly if all the cries of 'it's just the beta, don't focus too much on it' turned out to be true.
I don't understand,
Are you saying you WEREN'T expecting there to be any differences between the beta codex and the final release version?
I have no pride. Ill go ahead and take this one and say yes I completely thought all the beta talk was a wash lol I feel silly but I really did think this was it. If the wraith info was already set then why would they let the beta out like that? They must have known for awhile.
hirojlance wrote: Can confirm what Requizen is saying - watch some of the Forgebane unboxing videos and you can see some differences in the rules.
Wraiths page showing AP -2, D1 for their vicious claws:
I hope they will adjust points because 50 ppm is too much.
You can see a bit of blurry points in that video, looks like they might be back to 38? Hard to read though. Same price with better AP and the strats is... ok, but not as good as 2Damage.
Long time lurker first time poster
Anyone else notice that the lychguard swords aren't +1Str like in the codex beta, I'm hoping that maybe they didn't want to reveal stat changes before the codex as the +1 would've been handy for dealing with custodes etc
Edit: do wraiths also not have there hit and run rule?
Anyone else notice that the lychguard swords aren't +1Str like in the codex beta, I'm hoping that maybe they didn't want to reveal stat changes before the codex as the +1 would've been handy for dealing with custodes etc
Edit: do wraiths also not have there hit and run rule?
Guys, the beta codex that was leaked is supposed to have been from back in October.
In that beta testing typically determines what needs to be fixed before a product is set for general release, it stands to reason there was going to be differences. Hell, there were probably multiple iterations of beta codexes, so for all we know the one we're familiar with could have been the first one (which could explain its unit entires similarity to the index unit entires).
It would, however, be safe to assume a good chunk of it will be practically the same as it is now. Basically, the less problems the testers had with a certain thing, the more likely it will be that that thing will make it into the final version.
So fingers still crossed, ne?
MoonlightSonata wrote: Well maybe there's still hope for things like the Monolith and Obelisk then. Dare I say even the option for a phylactery on an overlord...
I think the biggest unknown is that we won't know to what degree we can expect the changes between the leaked beta codex and the final release. It'll be an interesting look into their design process though.
That or 5 lychguard or 3 wraiths really are a fair match up to one baby knight. And we overestimate the killing potential of those things. Fat chance though. Its probably just a "look at these pretty mini knights! We've even included some target practice dummies for ya shaped like actual enemies!"
They can be taken as a unit of 1-3. The datasheets are included for all the units in the Forgebane book and also include matched play points. Based on the load-out you’re looking at either 227 or 240 points per Armiger.
I ordered it with someone who really wanted the knights. We decided on a 2/5 3/5 split in cost, so I just see it as a cheap way to get some extra bodies for my already quite extensive robot collection.
Btw. Someone said the deathmarks were going to be awesome. On what info were they going? Because nothing changed in the bèta leaks. Is it possible they saw a later version where our favorite assassins got a buff?
Using the Zandrehk +Obyron + Cryptek with VoD + Deceiver combo, I managed to drag 10 lychguard with warscythes through about 1400 points of a 2000 point dark angels army last night. They got a hold of hellblasters turn 1, and just consolidated from combat to combat continuously for about 5 turns.
Killed 1 rhino, 2 razorbacks 5 tac marines, 5 intercessors, 10 hellblasters, 1 predator, 2 lieutennants, 1 chaplain and an apothecary. Having the cryptek and zandrek buffing them made them nasty. That and his knights deep struck on the other side of the board and were basically stuck there.
Anecdotal I know, but they were stupidly killy using the new rules from the beta dex, which my opponent was kind enough to allow me to use.
If you had a cryptek with VoD. What did you need the deceiver for? Did you GI everyone to one side only to leave big D stranded there and VoD to the other side and hapilly chop through their lines?
Yeah, that's an error. Probably because its a beta, and should not be taken seriously.
The only reliable thing we have to go on is the dynasty code, as that was confirmed by GW. Maybe stratagems as well.
Well, Community said that the codex will be right after Forgebane's release, so we'll probably see a bunch of necron previews over the week followed by a preorder.
Nagerash wrote: If you had a cryptek with VoD. What did you need the deceiver for? Did you GI everyone to one side only to leave big D stranded there and VoD to the other side and hapilly chop through their lines?
Exactly. I teleported the whole darn army from my deployment zone to his.
buddha wrote: Any summary of the forgebane unit changes? Really curious to see see the difference from the beta leaks.
As mentioned wraiths are down one damage, hyperphase swords are down to str rather than str +1, Outside of that no differences. Looking at that perhaps I should say, half of the units are significantly different, which lends credence to the rumor that the codex we are seeing is from october.
Armiger warglaives have a dreadnought statline, and their main gun is heavy D3, so sitting back and shooting won't really be viable against an infantry force like the necrons in the box, because they'll get a model maybe 2 if they are really lucky. If they do hang back necrons could safely ignore their shooting and pub stomp the rangers and dominus. I think against a skilled necron player the armigers will be awkward to use, the necrons will ignore them at range and pile in on them if they get close.
I see. So that's how the box is balanced. In order for the knights to do some actual damage, they have to get close, which opens them up to being counter charged by wraiths and lyches.
How many attacks do they have and what's the statline on their chainsaw?
They have 4 attacks, and it's a dread CCW, str x2 (12), ap -3, d6 damage. With a 3++ or 4++ on the necron CC units they are in for a tough fight. The armigers can get tarpitted fairly easy, since they can't fall back and fire, while the wraiths can fall back fire their guns, and then charge back in every round.
The ad mech force will be easier to use, but necrons will have an advantage in the hands of a good player.
buddha wrote: Any summary of the forgebane unit changes? Really curious to see see the difference from the beta leaks.
As mentioned wraiths are down one damage, hyperphase swords are down to str rather than str +1, Outside of that no differences. Looking at that perhaps I should say, half of the units are significantly different, which lends credence to the rumor that the codex we are seeing is from october.
Armiger warglaives have a dreadnought statline, and their main gun is heavy D3, so sitting back and shooting won't really be viable against an infantry force like the necrons in the box, because they'll get a model maybe 2 if they are really lucky. If they do hang back necrons could safely ignore their shooting and pub stomp the rangers and dominus. I think against a skilled necron player the armigers will be awkward to use, the necrons will ignore them at range and pile in on them if they get close.
So since Wraiths are back to D1 with their claws, can we safely assume that they will be getting a point drop from what the beta codex states?
And now that we know that the beta codex is probably from October and there will be other changes, I now have renewed hope that Trayzen isn't going to be absolute garbage.
buddha wrote: Any summary of the forgebane unit changes? Really curious to see see the difference from the beta leaks.
As mentioned wraiths are down one damage, hyperphase swords are down to str rather than str +1, Outside of that no differences. Looking at that perhaps I should say, half of the units are significantly different, which lends credence to the rumor that the codex we are seeing is from october.
Armiger warglaives have a dreadnought statline, and their main gun is heavy D3, so sitting back and shooting won't really be viable against an infantry force like the necrons in the box, because they'll get a model maybe 2 if they are really lucky. If they do hang back necrons could safely ignore their shooting and pub stomp the rangers and dominus. I think against a skilled necron player the armigers will be awkward to use, the necrons will ignore them at range and pile in on them if they get close.
This gives me some hope that they dropped the points on both of those units pretty significantly then.
So since Wraiths are back to D1 with their claws, can we safely assume that they will be getting a point drop from what the beta codex states?
And now that we know that the beta codex is probably from October and there will be other changes, I now have renewed hope that Trayzen isn't going to be absolute garbage.
The unboxing I saw only showed the sheets, but it seems fair if they went down to D1 their points will be dropped.
So since Wraiths are back to D1 with their claws, can we safely assume that they will be getting a point drop from what the beta codex states?
And now that we know that the beta codex is probably from October and there will be other changes, I now have renewed hope that Trayzen isn't going to be absolute garbage.
The unboxing I saw only showed the sheets, but it seems fair if they went down to D1 their points will be dropped.
Hopefully! While the new Wraiths do look good, Wraiths with D1 and a good point drop makes them irresistible!
Requizen wrote: Don't go too fast - Forgebane is being reviewed on some channels, and you can see things like the Canoptek Cloak is 10 points instead of 5, and it looks like Wraiths might be AP-2 Damage 1 instead of 2. Staff of Light is 18 (current price instead of leaked Beta Rules) as well.
So the Canoptek Cloak has already doubled in cost, and the Staff of Light has gone back to being overpriced trash.
Requizen wrote: Don't go too fast - Forgebane is being reviewed on some channels, and you can see things like the Canoptek Cloak is 10 points instead of 5, and it looks like Wraiths might be AP-2 Damage 1 instead of 2. Staff of Light is 18 (current price instead of leaked Beta Rules) as well.
So the Canoptek Cloak has already doubled in cost, and the Staff of Light has gone back to being overpriced trash.
Please dont forget that even the Dark Imperium box has completely different rules and point costs when compared to the final codex of both armies. There is really no reason at all to stress about bad changes until we get our final product.
Just wait 12 more days and then go nuts, because compared to the beta codex and Forgebane rules, there will be major, major changes when our codex hits (and maybe we will not even be a bottom tier army anymore <3 )
Maybe it's a rename or an error? I think they really mean transdimensional beamer, but they crossed it with particle caster. Is it wrong that I think its amusing they misspelled it as beaner? I'm pretty sure that's a derogatory word for a Mexican.
Anyway, I think the best thing a necron player could do is kill the skitarrii first and then take out the knights. Use wraiths and guard to stop the knights from getting too close.
Well I've played a few games with the Silver Tide, covering a Stalker and two DDA's. I'm happy to say that the Warlord Trait that makes them ignore morale, coupled by either the Mephrit Dynasty trait/Strategem can make them a solid choice in holding the tide.
Loads of Boyz, Tzaangors buffed up to their ears and Genestealers could not kill enough to stop a vital Reanimation Protocol from triggering.
Seeing as the Dynasty Codes have been confirmed and won't change. What is the best Dynasty for the Gauss Pylon?
Also, what do you guys think will preform better. The Tesseract Vault with it spitting out gakk loads of Mortal wounds and 20 S7 Tesla shots or the Gauss Pylon that "nearly" one-shots everything it shoots and the 5+ invul bubble that helps all <Dynasty> Necrons?
iGuy91 wrote: Using the Zandrehk +Obyron + Cryptek with VoD + Deceiver combo, I managed to drag 10 lychguard with warscythes through about 1400 points of a 2000 point dark angels army last night. They got a hold of hellblasters turn 1, and just consolidated from combat to combat continuously for about 5 turns.
Killed 1 rhino, 2 razorbacks 5 tac marines, 5 intercessors, 10 hellblasters, 1 predator, 2 lieutennants, 1 chaplain and an apothecary. Having the cryptek and zandrek buffing them made them nasty. That and his knights deep struck on the other side of the board and were basically stuck there.
Anecdotal I know, but they were stupidly killy using the new rules from the beta dex, which my opponent was kind enough to allow me to use.
But the depressing conclusion I come to reading this, is that had taken a few cheap scout units you would never get near his stuff
buddha wrote: Any summary of the forgebane unit changes? Really curious to see see the difference from the beta leaks.
I actually think the beta dex is the valid one still. Think about it critically guys. Forgebane required a lot more lead time to write print and manufacture prior to release. Meaning it was almost guaranteed finished before the final necron codex. October is very late* for the BETA codex to see significant changes like we see between the two. I may be wrong, but I actually would not be surprised if forgebane was the incorrect information. Same goes for the Armiger, they are WAY to expensive currently and almost guaranteed to cost less in the actual Knight book. Forgebane was probably staring production 6 months ago, especially when you consider how much GW is doing lately, their lead time must be crazy.
But the depressing conclusion I come to reading this, is that had taken a few cheap scout units you would never get near his stuff
mmm actually, you only need a tiny hole for Zandrekh + his Veiling HQ. Obyron and the Lychguard can be a mere inch away from enemies, as long as they are 6 inches from Zandrekh.
But the depressing conclusion I come to reading this, is that had taken a few cheap scout units you would never get near his stuff
mmm actually, you only need a tiny hole for Zandrekh + his Veiling HQ. Obyron and the Lychguard can be a mere inch away from enemies, as long as they are 6 inches from Zandrekh.
How is and 18.1" inch diameter zone excluding bases considers a tiny hole to you?
How is and 18.1" inch diameter zone excluding bases considers a tiny hole to you?
? Correct me if I'm wrong but, you only need space for two 25/32mm bases. Like I said, all you need is room for Zandrekh and his Veil of Darkness HQ buddy.
Enemies usually leave a tiny spot open in their backline, thinking no unit can ever fit there.
How is and 18.1" inch diameter zone excluding bases considers a tiny hole to you?
? Correct me if I'm wrong but, you only need space for two 25/32mm bases. Like I said, all you need is room for Zandrekh and his Veil of Darkness HQ buddy.
Enemies usually leave a tiny spot open in their backline, thinking no unit can ever fit there.
Casual players that don't use a tape measure during deployment... that was something I thought everyone took seriously after 8th droped and there was not scatter for deep striking.
I play with really fluffy players (not a soup list in sight) and they take deployment seriously.
MinscS2 wrote: Well, 5 Boxes would give you 60 Warriors, i.e. 3 squads of 20.
For anyone starting Necrons,or, getting back into the hobby. The Old SC box, New SC box and Forgoebane will give you a good amount of Necrons at a pretty decent price. Even for GW standards it's quite a steal tbh.
I have the collector's edition of the previous codex, which I always thought looked awesome! I am 90% sure I'm going to get this one as well. + in the previous one you got handy cards with the rules for each unit you could take with you to your games. Would save you some looking up, and would allow your opponent to quickly see what kind of units you brought.
So if you're a Cron's fan, I'd say it's worth it!
Also. I know it's not tactics related, appologies for that, but if anyone would be getting into the Necrons and interested in learning more about them. Should we have/make a list somewhere with the best Black Library books out there featuring our beloved Egyptian Space Terminators?
It is really sad there won't be any limited edition. Collector's editions are so bad...
The datacards from 7ed limited edition were very handy, as well as counters (well, technically still can and do use them).
Hoped for flashy necronty dice mostly, which only accompanies limited edition releases, afair.
Death Guard dice set is still unparalleled in terms of effort and execution among other GW-dice sets.
13 warriors? I counted 12.
Also, does it bother anyone else that its still 12 warriors a box? I mean, its squads of 10-20, not 12-24.
Well, there are 4 warriors/sprue, so you can't really sell 10 without (re)cutting the sprue.
Anyway, nice new SC. I have two of the old one - I was hoping that they would do something nice for the Triarch units (like give them a code of their own, or at least some strategems), but judging from the beta codex that's not the case? Shame about the missed opportunity, I really like the Stalker, it's so lovely evil and alien.
Odrankt wrote: Seeing as the Dynasty Codes have been confirmed and won't change. What is the best Dynasty for the Gauss Pylon?
Also, what do you guys think will preform better. The Tesseract Vault with it spitting out gakk loads of Mortal wounds and 20 S7 Tesla shots or the Gauss Pylon that "nearly" one-shots everything it shoots and the 5+ invul bubble that helps all <Dynasty> Necrons?
Nihilakh (reroll 1s) seems like the only dynasty that Gauss Pylons get anything from. 3 Dynasties are for advancing or charging, which the pylon can't do. So it's either turning AP -4 into AP -5 (worthless, IMO) or getting a reroll on 1s. It also buffs all models nearby regardless of faction.
That said, IDK if a Gauss Pylon is worth it and I'm leaning towards no. Will my enemy bring a superheavy? If yes, then it's amazing. If no, it seems like a 550 point liability.
13 warriors? I counted 12.
Also, does it bother anyone else that its still 12 warriors a box? I mean, its squads of 10-20, not 12-24.
Well, there are 4 warriors/sprue, so you can't really sell 10 without (re)cutting the sprue.
Anyway, nice new SC. I have two of the old one - I was hoping that they would do something nice for the Triarch units (like give them a code of their own, or at least some strategems), but judging from the beta codex that's not the case? Shame about the missed opportunity, I really like the Stalker, it's so lovely evil and alien.
Then package 5 sprues of warriors and sell scarabs separately. The fact I have to buy warriors to get scarabs is pretty dumb as well.
What if I just want scarabs? I have enough warriors.
Odrankt wrote: Seeing as the Dynasty Codes have been confirmed and won't change. What is the best Dynasty for the Gauss Pylon?
Also, what do you guys think will preform better. The Tesseract Vault with it spitting out gakk loads of Mortal wounds and 20 S7 Tesla shots or the Gauss Pylon that "nearly" one-shots everything it shoots and the 5+ invul bubble that helps all <Dynasty> Necrons?
Nihilakh (reroll 1s) seems like the only dynasty that Gauss Pylons get anything from. 3 Dynasties are for advancing or charging, which the pylon can't do. So it's either turning AP -4 into AP -5 (worthless, IMO) or getting a reroll on 1s. It also buffs all models nearby regardless of faction.
That said, IDK if a Gauss Pylon is worth it and I'm leaning towards no. Will my enemy bring a superheavy? If yes, then it's amazing. If no, it seems like a 550 point liability.
General rule of thumb is that a unit intended for firepower should target taking out as many points as it costs.
Even Imperial Knights cost less; and you are not quite likely to one-shot even one of those. GP, (though fun! I love mine ) are not worth it.
Moreover, the rest of your list ends up pretty anemic to make up for the point cost.
13 warriors? I counted 12.
Also, does it bother anyone else that its still 12 warriors a box? I mean, its squads of 10-20, not 12-24.
Well, there are 4 warriors/sprue, so you can't really sell 10 without (re)cutting the sprue.
Anyway, nice new SC. I have two of the old one - I was hoping that they would do something nice for the Triarch units (like give them a code of their own, or at least some strategems), but judging from the beta codex that's not the case? Shame about the missed opportunity, I really like the Stalker, it's so lovely evil and alien.
Then package 5 sprues of warriors and sell scarabs separately. The fact I have to buy warriors to get scarabs is pretty dumb as well.
What if I just want scarabs? I have enough warriors.
That's why I warn ALL new Necron players to buy a few extra bases for Scarabs and keep it at three of them on a base.
Hello, fellow Necrons collectors.
I play and collect Iron Hands mostly, occasionally adding some Custodes or Assassinorum models in the roster.
I collected a Craftworlds army several years ago, but sold them off two years ago. After then, I never bought any Xenos army.
The leak and imminent release of Necrons codex, however, drew my attention as I have had a surfeit of playing Imperium armies only.
Although I have only skimmed through a small portion of the codex leaked online, the durability of both the vehicles and the infantry was impressive.
Most of the weaponry seemed rather short-ranged, but the potential to pour considerable number of shots in form of tesla weaponry was also attractive.
Unexpectedly mobile elements, such as the wraiths and tomb blades surprised me too.
Stratagems seemed diverse and at least more useful than those of Space Marines.
While I am a complete novice on playing Necrons but the codex looked promising.
New codex seems to offer wide range of choices with very few models being overpriced and useless.
I might actually start collecting Necrons army, depending on how much the new start collecting set costs.
There is just one thing I would like to ask.
Doomsday Ark seemed to be the only model with truly long-ranged(i.e. 48" or longer) and formidable anti-tank firepower.
Quantum Shielding and the new stratagem can make it very durable, giving it a chance to survive firefights against enemy anti-tank firepower platforms.
It must remain stationary to unleash its full firepower, but it still looked like a solid choice to me.
How do Necron players think of Doomsday Ark? Is it worth taking in competitive games? Or should I look for other options?
Sagittarii Orientalis wrote: Hello, fellow Necrons collectors.
I play and collect Iron Hands mostly, occasionally adding some Custodes or Assassinorum models in the roster.
I collected a Craftworlds army several years ago, but sold them off two years ago. After then, I never bought any Xenos army.
The leak and imminent release of Necrons codex, however, drew my attention as I have had a surfeit of playing Imperium armies only.
Although I have only skimmed through a small portion of the codex leaked online, the durability of both the vehicles and the infantry was impressive.
Most of the weaponry seemed rather short-ranged, but the potential to pour considerable number of shots in form of tesla weaponry was also attractive.
Unexpectedly mobile elements, such as the wraiths and tomb blades surprised me too.
Stratagems seemed diverse and at least more useful than those of Space Marines.
While I am a complete novice on playing Necrons but the codex looked promising.
New codex seems to offer wide range of choices with very few models being overpriced and useless.
I might actually start collecting Necrons army, depending on how much the new start collecting set costs.
There is just one thing I would like to ask.
Doomsday Ark seemed to be the only model with truly long-ranged(i.e. 48" or longer) and formidable anti-tank firepower.
Quantum Shielding and the new stratagem can make it very durable, giving it a chance to survive firefights against enemy anti-tank firepower platforms.
It must remain stationary to unleash its full firepower, but it still looked like a solid choice to me.
How do Necron players think of Doomsday Ark? Is it worth taking in competitive games? Or should I look for other options?
Currently for the leaked codex it is a choice between the D Ark with it's long range firepower to keep it out of harms way and being fairly durable to anti tank weapons as well as being able to be with the firepower of 10 warriors in a pinch.
The other option are destroyers, who can be combined with the 1cp extermination protocols stratagem and potentially mwbd and the sautehk/mephrit stratagems if you want some more expensive buffs. This is by far the better ofption for damage as it is more spread out meaning invuls aren't as damaging against it and are also an easy target to get some bonuses to hit so aren't completely useless against -2 to hit units. They can also be deep struck if using nephrek, which gives up the damage dealing stratagems but the increased safety is worth IMO.
other options that aren't as good but still usable are the T ark which is just more expensive and has less dakka then the D Ark, and the pylon, which can only target one unit a turn and is very vulnerable to cold dice and your opponent spending cp to re roll and invul. IMO the destroyers are the way to go as they are just more aggressive and fun to play.
^
It remains to be seen whether H.Destroyers end up being better than a D.Ark.
In general it depends on what you're setting them against.
But so far the consensus seems to be that regular Destroyers deep struck in via Nephrekh's Translocation Crypt strategem [TC] is going to be the go-to for most lists you're going to see.
(and seeing as how Wraiths and Scarabs would really like their Dynastic code so they can maximum advance, bringing along an Outrider of Destroyers and Canopteks is also probably going to be pretty common practice... though I'm not sure what the optimal HQ for that detachment would be).
Whats the damage difference between destroyers and a D-Ark against T7/T8 Targets?
If the beta points are correct you get (nearly) 4 Destroyers for one D-Arks.
So
D6 Shots S10 -5 D6 vs
12 Shots S5 -3 D3 (with possibly reroll all)
The really big advantage is really that destroyers are Alpha strike safe becau you can deep strike them, that puts em in the same spot as obliterators, which are awesome
stormcraft wrote: Whats the damage difference between destroyers and a D-Ark against T7/T8 Targets?
If the beta points are correct you get (nearly) 4 Destroyers for one D-Arks.
So
D6 Shots S10 -5 D6 vs
12 Shots S5 -3 D3 (with possibly reroll all)
The really big advantage is really that destroyers are Alpha strike safe becau you can deep strike them, that puts em in the same spot as obliterators, which are awesome
Stratagem that gives full reroll gives destroyers much more value. Also destroyers benefit from MWBD and reroll 1s on damage from lord (heroes you gonna take anyway mostly). I think that most powerfull anti-tank setup right now is:
3 Ghost arks goes as 2nd option. They cover more space to prevent opponent DS, more durable and can give high volume of attacks when opponent comes at your face, but dont benefit from DS, struggle against minuses to hit (which everyone pack nowadays; Destroyers can be improved by MWBD) and remains fully stationary to be effective, which puts them at 2nd place for me.
Sagittarii Orientalis wrote: Hello, fellow Necrons collectors.
I play and collect Iron Hands mostly, occasionally adding some Custodes or Assassinorum models in the roster.
I collected a Craftworlds army several years ago, but sold them off two years ago. After then, I never bought any Xenos army.
The leak and imminent release of Necrons codex, however, drew my attention as I have had a surfeit of playing Imperium armies only.
Although I have only skimmed through a small portion of the codex leaked online, the durability of both the vehicles and the infantry was impressive.
Most of the weaponry seemed rather short-ranged, but the potential to pour considerable number of shots in form of tesla weaponry was also attractive.
Unexpectedly mobile elements, such as the wraiths and tomb blades surprised me too.
Stratagems seemed diverse and at least more useful than those of Space Marines.
While I am a complete novice on playing Necrons but the codex looked promising.
New codex seems to offer wide range of choices with very few models being overpriced and useless.
I might actually start collecting Necrons army, depending on how much the new start collecting set costs.
There is just one thing I would like to ask.
Doomsday Ark seemed to be the only model with truly long-ranged(i.e. 48" or longer) and formidable anti-tank firepower.
Quantum Shielding and the new stratagem can make it very durable, giving it a chance to survive firefights against enemy anti-tank firepower platforms.
It must remain stationary to unleash its full firepower, but it still looked like a solid choice to me.
How do Necron players think of Doomsday Ark? Is it worth taking in competitive games? Or should I look for other options?
Currently for the leaked codex it is a choice between the D Ark with it's long range firepower to keep it out of harms way and being fairly durable to anti tank weapons as well as being able to be with the firepower of 10 warriors in a pinch.
The other option are destroyers, who can be combined with the 1cp extermination protocols stratagem and potentially mwbd and the sautehk/mephrit stratagems if you want some more expensive buffs. This is by far the better ofption for damage as it is more spread out meaning invuls aren't as damaging against it and are also an easy target to get some bonuses to hit so aren't completely useless against -2 to hit units. They can also be deep struck if using nephrek, which gives up the damage dealing stratagems but the increased safety is worth IMO.
other options that aren't as good but still usable are the T ark which is just more expensive and has less dakka then the D Ark, and the pylon, which can only target one unit a turn and is very vulnerable to cold dice and your opponent spending cp to re roll and invul. IMO the destroyers are the way to go as they are just more aggressive and fun to play.
The DDA the arguably the best Anti-tank we have, only falling short to Extermination Protocol Destroyers in smaller games.
(Correct me if I am wrong, as I am inexperienced with Mathhammer)
Against a Leman Russ (T8/3+)
4 Nephrekh Destroyers with Extermination Protocols = 9.877 points of damage
1 Nihilakh DDA = 6.352 points of damage
Against a Land Raider (T8/2+)
4 Nephrekh Destroyers with Extermination Protocols = 7.901 wounds
1 Nihilakh DDA = 6.352 wounds
Against a Leman Russ (T8/3+)
4 Nephrekh Destroyers without Extermination Protocols = 5.185 points of damage
1 Nihilakh DDA = 6.352 points of damage
Against a Land Raider (T8/2+)
4 Nephrekh Destroyers without Extermination Protocols = 4.148 wounds
1 Nihilakh DDA = 6.352 wounds
So if you are willing to burn a CP each time you shoot with them, Destroyers can out damage a DDA. However, if you are going against tanks with 2+ saves, you need to consider if a CP is worth the extra 1.549 damage. You also need to worry about the tactical implications that the Destroyers will be much more closer and more vulnerable than a DDA would be. However, the advantages towards the DDA greatly increase in larger games. To double the power of a DDA, you take 2 DDA, but if you wanted to match those points in Destroyers, you would need to take two Units as the maximum Unit size for Destroyers is 6. This would require you to spend 2 CP each time you shot with your Destroyers instead of 1. We also have to remember the CP we are spending to safely DS the Destroyers so they can reliably have a turn of shooting, making it 2 CP (+1 CP every time they shoot afterwards) in smaller games, and 4 CP (+2 CP every time they shoot afterwards) in larger games.
Imo, DDA are the best Necron Unit for Anti-tank. They can shoot safely from afar, only average a little less damage compared to Destroyers, and you don't need to spend valuable CP. I would personally use the Destroyers to go after lighter T6 vehicles and pricey Elite Infantry, and if the DDA whiffs a shot at a high priority tank that you need dead or crippled that turn, you have the option of using the Destroyers to pick up the slack.
The Problem with Nihilak DDAs is that Nihilak is a really bad trait outside DDAs, so to come up with an nihilak HQ, and other stuff to fill the detachment, that doesnt feel like a total tax is hard. (Repair Cryptek with the cloak is my best guess).
2CP for 2 Destroyer Units is a no go btw, cant use the same stratagem multiple time per phase.
stormcraft wrote: The Problem with Nihilak DDAs is that Nihilak is a really bad trait outside DDAs, so to come up with an nihilak HQ, and other stuff to fill the detachment, that doesnt feel like a total tax is hard. (Repair Cryptek with the cloak is my best guess).
2CP for 2 Destroyer Units is a no go btw, cant use the same stratagem multiple time per phase.
It's not optimal but its doable, especially in larger games where you would take 2 DDA.
Ahhh, didn't know that. Haven't played much of 8th tbh (or 7th for that matter, 8th got me back in), as I have been waiting for Necrons to get their codex lol. However that just proves my point that in larger games the DDA wins out when it comes to Anti-tank.
Nagerash wrote: if you can't use the same stratagem multiple times, does that also means you can only hide 1 Destroyer unit with the Nephrek TC?
I think because you're using that strategem before the actual game begins it means it doesn't happen in a phase so you can do it as much as you like so long as 50% of your army is deployed as normal.
though I'm not sure what the optimal HQ for that detachment would be).
stormcraft wrote: so to come up with an nihilak HQ, and other stuff to fill the detachment, that doesnt feel like a total tax is hard.
There are Anrakyr and Szeras for just such detachments.
P.S. But I personally think that re-rolls to hit in close combat is better dynasty code for both wraiths and scarabs, while extra movement is best for immortals and warriors, competing with Mephrite's bonus to AP.
My roster ideas are rotating around Novokh outrider detachment for canopteks and Mephrite battalion with 2*10 Immortals and 1*20 warriors, but can't decide on options for support units and HQ.
One of my playmates suggests Nightbringer, while I have a guttural feeling that large number of deathmarks (20 or 30) should be taken to compete with shining spears and alpha strike armies, but this requires extra field tests to be proven. If deathmarks somehow get in Lords' aura they become very nasty.
Will be waiting untill March FAQ from GW, cause the metagame will shift most likely due to CE nerf.
Mephrit Deathmarks could possibly work for counter-deepstrike Alpha Strike armies. Not just as counter deployment shenanigans but with the AP-1 providing a harder punch for their shots.
stormcraft wrote: The Problem with Nihilak DDAs is that Nihilak is a really bad trait outside DDAs, so to come up with an nihilak HQ, and other stuff to fill the detachment, that doesnt feel like a total tax is hard. (Repair Cryptek with the cloak is my best guess).
2CP for 2 Destroyer Units is a no go btw, cant use the same stratagem multiple time per phase.
I think you can just take a Nihilak Spearhead with a cheap Crytepk (for the repair job) or lord then take 3 DDA, or 2DDA and a Spider (cheapest Heavy Support for Necron?) if you lack points. Looks not bad for me
stormcraft wrote: The Problem with Nihilak DDAs is that Nihilak is a really bad trait outside DDAs, so to come up with an nihilak HQ, and other stuff to fill the detachment, that doesnt feel like a total tax is hard. (Repair Cryptek with the cloak is my best guess).
2CP for 2 Destroyer Units is a no go btw, cant use the same stratagem multiple time per phase.
I think you can just take a Nihilak Spearhead with a cheap Crytepk (for the repair job) or lord then take 3 DDA, or 2DDA and a Spider (cheapest Heavy Support for Necron?) if you lack points. Looks not bad for me
I thought the Lord only affected Infantry? In which case you might as well stick with minor repairs.
In which case, 3 Arms, 3 Spiders, and then a Repairtek seems to be a solid backfield setup, though obviously pricey. Not even sure the Spyders are worth it as I think repairs are terrible this edition and definitely something that could be fixed. Heh.
I looked at the Spyder and to be honest i think its pretty crappy.
You get a boost from 1 Wound to D3 wound Living metal repair, so your paying 65 Points for average 1 Wound repair per turn and an otherwise really useless modell in your backfield.
A lone Heavy Destroyer for 57 Points to fill the last slot seem the better option here, at least he can make dmg.
Aye: it feels like some people may not always account for the fact that games have a very short, finite duration. Usually around 5 turns at most. D3 * 5 is like 10 wounds healed on average. For the same cost of a Spyder, you could pick up a Heavy Destroyer and get 30% of the wounds and 29% more firepower.
stormcraft wrote: The Problem with Nihilak DDAs is that Nihilak is a really bad trait outside DDAs, so to come up with an nihilak HQ, and other stuff to fill the detachment, that doesnt feel like a total tax is hard. (Repair Cryptek with the cloak is my best guess).
2CP for 2 Destroyer Units is a no go btw, cant use the same stratagem multiple time per phase.
I think you can just take a Nihilak Spearhead with a cheap Crytepk (for the repair job) or lord then take 3 DDA, or 2DDA and a Spider (cheapest Heavy Support for Necron?) if you lack points. Looks not bad for me
I thought the Lord only affected Infantry? In which case you might as well stick with minor repairs.
In which case, 3 Arms, 3 Spiders, and then a Repairtek seems to be a solid backfield setup, though obviously pricey. Not even sure the Spyders are worth it as I think repairs are terrible this edition and definitely something that could be fixed. Heh.
Wow, you think repairs are bad this edition? Granted I play a lot of admech armies but I think repairing is under used by a lot of players. I play Chaos, and regen plus a warpsmith has won me games keeping a key unit alive. It's an average of 3 wounds a round. It means your arch is only degrading turn one if they deal it 10 wounds if you roll decent. That forces them to finish an arch before hitting the next (which is a common strategy with so many factions able to use -1 or more to hit). Since he is a back line unit they are going to be using high damage AT 9 times in 10 meaning his quantum shielding is working best as well. I imagine as soon as your opponent is aware of the spyder and or cryptek repair abilities they totally ignore the DDA.
I mean, I am thinking of taking a spyder anyway for the deny ability, he may as well pay for himself by effectively adding wounds to a DDA. Thats what you have to consider, if he heals an average of 2 wounds per turn for 3 turns, he is adding value of whatever ratio of wounds to cost he is repairing. He also adds a scarab base turn 1. I actually think spyders are fine. They also can advance and charge and are durable meaning in a pinch they can surprise someone when he jumps from the back line lol. Trap door spyder!
The Spyder is also one of the lists only ways to deny psychic powers, which is not useless at all. The repair is cool, but if I'm taking a Spyder it's probably first off because of the deny, with the repair as a nifty secondary benefit.
Problem is that to repair the spyder has to be by your DDA in your backfield to repair, and the enemy Spykers is in theirs.
Maybe you can deny a Deep Striking Deamon Prince once in a while, but the vast majority will be out of deny range most times.
Not sure what that will look like when I get the points figured up, but overall thoughts on the strategy/units? Too much anti-tank? Are larger squads backed up by Arks better than units in the Arks?
Trying to get a grasp on 'Crons as my next potential army, so sorry if I am entirely noobish. Also, no 'Crons in my local meta either (another reason to pursue them, actually), so I have no hands-on experience either!
stormcraft wrote: Problem is that to repair the spyder has to be by your DDA in your backfield to repair, and the enemy Spykers is in theirs.
Maybe you can deny a Deep Striking Deamon Prince once in a while, but the vast majority will be out of deny range most times.
Not entirely fair, you repair at the end of the phase, meaning with an advance roll plus the repair range, I can be at the front of the deployment zone making scarabs and denying powers, then easily hop back to slap a wrench on the arch. Anything out of range will probably be a blessing power happening far way anyway. You want denial to stop things like warp time or nasty mortal wound powers like psychic screams and smites from flyrants. He has plenty of range for those.
stormcraft wrote: Problem is that to repair the spyder has to be by your DDA in your backfield to repair, and the enemy Spykers is in theirs.
Maybe you can deny a Deep Striking Deamon Prince once in a while, but the vast majority will be out of deny range most times.
Not entirely fair, you repair at the end of the phase, meaning with an advance roll plus the repair range, I can be at the front of the deployment zone making scarabs and denying powers, then easily hop back to slap a wrench on the arch. Anything out of range will probably be a blessing power happening far way anyway. You want denial to stop things like warp time or nasty mortal wound powers like psychic screams and smites from flyrants. He has plenty of range for those.
That is actually a fair point, and a good tactic for your first round movement. Beginning Turn 2 you can either stay with the DDA to repair or return to the fron line for denying.
Anyway, im still doubtfull its worth the points, but i could see the joy in repairing a nealy dead DDA 2w3 every turn with a spyder and a cryptek. Could be really frustrating for your enemy......or absolutely useless if the DDA blows up Turn one
Wow, you think repairs are bad this edition? Granted I play a lot of admech armies but I think repairing is under used by a lot of players. I play Chaos, and regen plus a warpsmith has won me games keeping a key unit alive. It's an average of 3 wounds a round. It means your arch is only degrading turn one if they deal it 10 wounds if you roll decent. That forces them to finish an arch before hitting the next (which is a common strategy with so many factions able to use -1 or more to hit). Since he is a back line unit they are going to be using high damage AT 9 times in 10 meaning his quantum shielding is working best as well. I imagine as soon as your opponent is aware of the spyder and or cryptek repair abilities they totally ignore the DDA.
I mean, I am thinking of taking a spyder anyway for the deny ability, he may as well pay for himself by effectively adding wounds to a DDA. Thats what you have to consider, if he heals an average of 2 wounds per turn for 3 turns, he is adding value of whatever ratio of wounds to cost he is repairing. He also adds a scarab base turn 1. I actually think spyders are fine. They also can advance and charge and are durable meaning in a pinch they can surprise someone when he jumps from the back line lol. Trap door spyder!
It's something to consider.
In general, degrading one BS3+ vehicle and then moving on to the next doesn't make sense, even when you can rely on a -1 hit mod. A BS3+ vehicle will degrade to 4+ at half wounds. With a -1 hit mod it's moving from a 4+ to a 5+, so it's losing only 33% of its output after losing half its wounds. You're better off killing it entirely and getting rid of the remaining 67% of its output than moving on to another vehicle and reducing it to half wounds as well. Even for BS4+ vehicles (or with a -2 hit mod on everything worth shooting, which is extremely rare) you want to get them down to their third profile before moving on, and the third profile does not generally last very long. I think that to the extent your opponents are inclined to degrade and move on, and your bringing repair stuff inclines them towards killing vehicles entirely, you're paying points to get your opponents to do what they should have been doing all along.
If your opponents simply can't consistently kill a DDA in a turn, then, sure, go for it. But I feel like you're in pretty good shape already if your opponent wants to but can't kill a 200 point model in a turn.
Spyders in particular have the problem that they're actually more vulnerable to lots of things than are the vehicles that you're bringing them to repair. They're not Techmarines that can hide using the character rule. A lascannon gets about twice as much out of shooting a full-health Spyder as a DDA. If your opponent just shoots the Spyder first, you'd have been better off bringing more DDAs instead (obviously you can't buy only half a DDA but you get the idea).
It's been edited. There was a minute where it suggested you take a CCB to support Tomb Blades with a Resurrection Orb, which got some poeple excited about them changing the Res Orb rules, but I guess they just made a mistake as they've now removed that text from the post on community
It seems really odd that they would suggest keeping a Command Barge to go with the Tomb Blades. Originally they said that you did so because you can use a res orb on them, but that was edited out. You also can't use MWBD on them either. So why bother with a Command Barge instead of a Cloaktek?
I mean CCB is one of the few overlord esque units that can keep up with a group of Tomb blades to increase their combat efficiency. Plus compared to the cryptek it's more likely to stay alive with a rez orb then a cyptek, so if you have the pair traveling with the TB's then your TB's are pretty tenacious.
Lothmar wrote: I mean CCB is one of the few overlord esque units that can keep up with a group of Tomb blades to increase their combat efficiency.
How do you figure that?
Speed difference mainly 9" difference for named/regular overlords vs 2" for CCB. I suppose you could gimp your TB's speed by slowing them to the equivalent of an overlord to keep them in range of their mwbd~ but if you're looking for relative consistent mwbd's on the move then the CCB's your best bet.
Sure you could make the overlord Nephrek for 6" advances, but then that means the tomb blades you want him to buff also have to be Nephrek because mwbd is dynasty restricted.
Well thats the problem, mwbd is for infantry only and not for bikes, same for the rez orb.... Unless they changed that a ccb supports tomb blades like.... Not at all
Lothmar wrote: I mean CCB is one of the few overlord esque units that can keep up with a group of Tomb blades to increase their combat efficiency.
How do you figure that?
Speed difference mainly 9" difference for named/regular overlords vs 2" for CCB. I suppose you could gimp your TB's speed by slowing them to the equivalent of an overlord to keep them in range of their mwbd~ but if you're looking for relative consistent mwbd's on the move then the CCB's your best bet.
Sure you could make the overlord Nephrek for 6" advances, but then that means the tomb blades you want him to buff also have to be Nephrek because mwbd is dynasty restricted.
Well, he can keep up with them in order to offer melee/heavier weapon support. You could also have a CCB with the "immune to Morale" Trait to keep them around, but you'd need to be running a lot for that to make sense.
Klowny wrote: Since the video leak has gone down, I cant remember if heavy gauss changed to S6, 36" compared to S5 24"?
They were buffed very nicely from S5 Heavy 2 24" to S6 Heavy 3 24" and even got a point reduction as well, whether that's how they stay of course remains to be seen
You're comparing a Heavy support choice to a Lord of War. They aren't even on the same scale. Unless the Pylon got nerfed super hard. Last time I saw its statline was when it had titan killer stats and could one shot any vehicle.
They are about equal efficiency point for point (not 1:1 model) for killing big tanks if the ark doesn't move, pylon is better for air and titanic targets and has more potential for a whiff/overkill equal points wise (2.5 ish arks v 1 pylon for target options). Both have secondary infantry weapons that again are about the same efficiency points wise.
Again no guarantee this is still the case in the codex.
I want to do necrons again with the new dex. They were the first army I did (so unpainted and modelled awfully) but my love for them has definitely been revived. I have an acceptable doom scythe, some warriors (owned 30 some are ok) and a very nicely painted cryptek. I think the new SC box and more warriors. What else? Any tips? (I really like the mephrit dynasty trait, suits my style and good against what I play)
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: I want to do necrons again with the new dex. They were the first army I did (so unpainted and modelled awfully) but my love for them has definitely been revived. I have an acceptable doom scythe, some warriors (owned 30 some are ok) and a very nicely painted cryptek. I think the new SC box and more warriors. What else? Any tips?
Split the Forgebane box with an AdMech player. Great deal for more Immortals, a Cryptek, and some Wraiths.
Klowny wrote: Since the video leak has gone down, I cant remember if heavy gauss changed to S6, 36" compared to S5 24"?
They were buffed very nicely from S5 Heavy 2 24" to S6 Heavy 3 24" and even got a point reduction as well, whether that's how they stay of course remains to be seen
With the changes to Wraiths in Forgebane compared to the beta codex, it would be safe to say to not assume anything at this point until the codex.
So assuming the leak was correct. This list actually looks somewhat scary. Im wondering what people think the best dynasty would be for them.
If you've got a core of 3 Vaults + deceiver + a cloaktek, I'm not sure what the other 2 cloakteks are doing. Conceivably they could be healing, but only if your opponent isn't focus firing (which they really ought to).
You could swap to an outrider detachment instead and go 3x3 Scarabs + 1 Canoptek Spyder. 2 scarab swarms grab a random objective in your backline, 1 scarab takes the orb with your cloaktek to try to screen a charge or tie up something useful in melee, and the Spider will be able to deep strike in with strategem and provide more repairs to the TV that's being focused down (and get to deny at least 1 psychic power). Mephrit is the obvious answer for your only weapon (tesla spheres), but I think Nephrekh would be better just in case you get a bad deceiver roll.
So assuming the leak was correct. This list actually looks somewhat scary. Im wondering what people think the best dynasty would be for them.
If you've got a core of 3 Vaults + deceiver + a cloaktek, I'm not sure what the other 2 cloakteks are doing. Conceivably they could be healing, but only if your opponent isn't focus firing (which they really ought to).
You could swap to an outrider detachment instead and go 3x3 Scarabs + 1 Canoptek Spyder. 2 scarab swarms grab a random objective in your backline, 1 scarab takes the orb with your cloaktek to try to screen a charge or tie up something useful in melee, and the Spider will be able to deep strike in with strategem and provide more repairs to the TV that's being focused down (and get to deny at least 1 psychic power). Mephrit is the obvious answer for your only weapon (tesla spheres), but I think Nephrekh would be better just in case you get a bad deceiver roll.
With the new stratagem for using the highest profile, focusing tesseract vaults may not be the best method for taking them out if you aren't confident you can take one out a turn, which is likely. So what they probably want to do is to get one down a profile at a time to limit you're ability to keep the vaults vomiting out 3 powers a turn. So using 3 crypteks may be the better option. To add to this, if you are playing something that involves kill point, mainly ITC Champtions missions, having everything character but the vaults can deny your opponent kills and boost you ahead
So assuming the leak was correct. This list actually looks somewhat scary. Im wondering what people think the best dynasty would be for them.
If you've got a core of 3 Vaults + deceiver + a cloaktek, I'm not sure what the other 2 cloakteks are doing. Conceivably they could be healing, but only if your opponent isn't focus firing (which they really ought to).
You could swap to an outrider detachment instead and go 3x3 Scarabs + 1 Canoptek Spyder. 2 scarab swarms grab a random objective in your backline, 1 scarab takes the orb with your cloaktek to try to screen a charge or tie up something useful in melee, and the Spider will be able to deep strike in with strategem and provide more repairs to the TV that's being focused down (and get to deny at least 1 psychic power). Mephrit is the obvious answer for your only weapon (tesla spheres), but I think Nephrekh would be better just in case you get a bad deceiver roll.
With the new stratagem for using the highest profile, focusing tesseract vaults may not be the best method for taking them out if you aren't confident you can take one out a turn, which is likely. So what they probably want to do is to get one down a profile at a time to limit you're ability to keep the vaults vomiting out 3 powers a turn. So using 3 crypteks may be the better option. To add to this, if you are playing something that involves kill point, mainly ITC Champtions missions, having everything character but the vaults can deny your opponent kills and boost you ahead
This is pretty much how i was thinking about it. Its not all that easy to down one of these things. Plus if they do kill one. They blow up rather nicely.
The best part about the change to Destroyers (from a nostalgia pov) is that the Strength and # of shots is now the same as they were when Destroyers were first made in plastic.
Galef wrote: The best part about the change to Destroyers (from a nostalgia pov) is that the Strength and # of shots is now the same as they were when Destroyers were first made in plastic.
The worst part is the ancient sculpt. Anyone make their own or improve the base model any? I am thinking at the bare minimum using the head from the CCB (the dude on the right) and adding something to the insides of the ...exhaust ports? Whatever the sides are. They look weird empty.
Galef wrote: The best part about the change to Destroyers (from a nostalgia pov) is that the Strength and # of shots is now the same as they were when Destroyers were first made in plastic.
The worst part is the ancient sculpt. Anyone make their own or improve the base model any? I am thinking at the bare minimum using the head from the CCB (the dude on the right) and adding something to the insides of the ...exhaust ports? Whatever the sides are. They look weird empty.
That's funny, because for years the Destroyers and Warriors were considered some of the best GW models. They certainly are showing their age now, but my main gripe is the cost for such a simple kit. Also, Warriors should be in boxes of 10 without Scarabs and Scarabs need their own box. This obviously requires a recast. If we also recast Destroyers and the Monolith, we can abolish green rods entirely. Whether that is good or bad is up to the players ( I personally like the green rods)
Galef wrote: The best part about the change to Destroyers (from a nostalgia pov) is that the Strength and # of shots is now the same as they were when Destroyers were first made in plastic.
The worst part is the ancient sculpt. Anyone make their own or improve the base model any? I am thinking at the bare minimum using the head from the CCB (the dude on the right) and adding something to the insides of the ...exhaust ports? Whatever the sides are. They look weird empty.
That's funny, because for years the Destroyers and Warriors were considered some of the best GW models. They certainly are showing their age now, but my main gripe is the cost for such a simple kit.
What years? The '90s?! They have almost always been rubbish to me. Far outshined now by the entire range of 'Crons that came from their revamp.
What years? The '90s?! They have almost always been rubbish to me. Far outshined now by the entire range of 'Crons that came from their revamp.
Indeed, the 90s and early 2000s. I started playing Necrons in 2006. Necrons had a "coolness" factor that no other army had. This was in part due to the Destroyers and Warriors. I remember days when both Necrons and Dark Eldar hadn't had updates in a decade. Necrons still had a good (if limited) model range, but garbage rules, yet DE had excellent rules but garbage models. How times have changed.
But I do agree that the more current Necrons are far better. I would be nice to see updated kits, even it the aesthetics stay the same overall.
So assuming the leak was correct. This list actually looks somewhat scary. Im wondering what people think the best dynasty would be for them.
If you've got a core of 3 Vaults + deceiver + a cloaktek, I'm not sure what the other 2 cloakteks are doing. Conceivably they could be healing, but only if your opponent isn't focus firing (which they really ought to).
You could swap to an outrider detachment instead and go 3x3 Scarabs + 1 Canoptek Spyder. 2 scarab swarms grab a random objective in your backline, 1 scarab takes the orb with your cloaktek to try to screen a charge or tie up something useful in melee, and the Spider will be able to deep strike in with strategem and provide more repairs to the TV that's being focused down (and get to deny at least 1 psychic power). Mephrit is the obvious answer for your only weapon (tesla spheres), but I think Nephrekh would be better just in case you get a bad deceiver roll.
With the new stratagem for using the highest profile, focusing tesseract vaults may not be the best method for taking them out if you aren't confident you can take one out a turn, which is likely. So what they probably want to do is to get one down a profile at a time to limit you're ability to keep the vaults vomiting out 3 powers a turn. So using 3 crypteks may be the better option. To add to this, if you are playing something that involves kill point, mainly ITC Champtions missions, having everything character but the vaults can deny your opponent kills and boost you ahead
If you can't take down one wounded TV, then you can't wound a second TV. It's 14 wounds either way. Aside from being out of charge range or something, I don't see any good reason to split fire.
What are folks thinking for the core of troops for this army going forward?
I really like the idea of 15- or 20-man blobs of Warriors with a Ghost Ark and a Chrono Cryptek for the 5++, but I have no idea if that is even viable.
So do I. But I do wish they would update the kit to:
A) include plastic options for each destroyer to have either Guass cannon or Heavy
B) include plastic Destroyer lord upgrades.
So do I. But I do wish they would update the kit to:
A) include plastic options for each destroyer to have either Guass cannon or Heavy
B) include plastic Destroyer lord upgrades.
Especially since Destroyers are good again.
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That would be nice.
Though if they are going to update the kit, they might as well add more weapon options.
Can you imagine destroyers with tesla cannons? Or Destructors? Or Warscythes?
So do I. But I do wish they would update the kit to:
A) include plastic options for each destroyer to have either Guass cannon or Heavy
B) include plastic Destroyer lord upgrades.
Especially since Destroyers are good again.
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I agree completely, I was so annoyed when they just changed heavy destroyers to finecast
On another note, one thing I've been wondering is for the talent for annihilation stratagem( any to hit roll of a 6 gens an additional hit) as far as i can tell its unmodifiable which is annoying for MWBD, but does that mean that anything which gives us -1 to hit if we roll 6 does it still generate an additional hit?
I think this is the wording
Use this Stratagem before a MEPHRIT unit from your army attacks in the Shooting phase。 Each time you make unmodified hit roll of 6 for a model in that unit、 you can make additional hit roll for that model with the same weapon against the same target。 These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls。
I agree completely, I was so annoyed when they just changed heavy destroyers to finecast
I was frustrated when I got my heavy destroyer "upgrade" kit. A badly bent, bare-bones barrel and a... vacuum nozzle? That's all I get?
I cut the barrel off, attached the regular Destroyer gun onto the front of it, and then attached a Deathmark barrel onto the end of that. Ended up looking pretty cool, still need to paint it though. I left the shoulder vacuum intact so he can clean up after himself.
Jury is still out on whether destroyers will be dark reaper good, but even if they are as overall efficient, they don't have the support that made dark reaper spam a top table staple. No soul burst, no -1 to hit, and even the reroll ones is less awesome than ignore modifiers to hit.
*edit* I actually think the best unit to compare them to is obliterators from chaos space marines, a staple unit with a broad target profile, that you don't spam because they are stratagem dependent.
A handy trick (if CP expensive) might be combining "Reclaim a Lost Empire" and "Dispersion Field Amplification" on some Lychguard. Veil them onto an objective near enemy lines, pop those two. Now you have a 2++ causing MW on their attackers on a 5+. If they decide to just charge you you have +1 attack as well. If they ignore you... you successfully got Lychguard in a position where they might actually be able to get a charge off (especially w/ MWBD)
TheGoodGuy wrote: A handy trick (if CP expensive) might be combining "Reclaim a Lost Empire" and "Dispersion Field Amplification" on some Lychguard. Veil them onto an objective near enemy lines, pop those two. Now you have a 2++ causing MW on their attackers on a 5+. If they decide to just charge you you have +1 attack as well. If they ignore you... you successfully got Lychguard in a position where they might actually be able to get a charge off (especially w/ MWBD)
Hmm, tough to Veil onto objective though...
And yea, it costs 4 cp O.o. lets pray Dispersion Shields become a 3++. Though that might make Wraiths obselete.
TheGoodGuy wrote: A handy trick (if CP expensive) might be combining "Reclaim a Lost Empire" and "Dispersion Field Amplification" on some Lychguard. Veil them onto an objective near enemy lines, pop those two. Now you have a 2++ causing MW on their attackers on a 5+. If they decide to just charge you you have +1 attack as well. If they ignore you... you successfully got Lychguard in a position where they might actually be able to get a charge off (especially w/ MWBD)
Hmm, tough to Veil onto objective though...
And yea, it costs 4 cp O.o. lets pray Dispersion Shields become a 3++. Though that might make Wraiths obselete.
I wish they were 3++ ... Frankly for their cost they should be when compared to TH/SS Terminators.
Pure Nephrekh might be pretty cool. Tesla Immortals are ObSec that can move 11" and shoot a moderate gun, or with MWBD they're 12" move Troops with their basic (rather good) gun. While it's not as scary damage as Mephrit or as brutal melee as Novokh, the movement and Objective game is what generally wins out in the end.
Probably still worth having a Sautekh Warlord, though.
TheGoodGuy wrote: A handy trick (if CP expensive) might be combining "Reclaim a Lost Empire" and "Dispersion Field Amplification" on some Lychguard. Veil them onto an objective near enemy lines, pop those two. Now you have a 2++ causing MW on their attackers on a 5+. If they decide to just charge you you have +1 attack as well. If they ignore you... you successfully got Lychguard in a position where they might actually be able to get a charge off (especially w/ MWBD)
Hmm, tough to Veil onto objective though...
And yea, it costs 4 cp O.o. lets pray Dispersion Shields become a 3++. Though that might make Wraiths obselete.
I wish they were 3++ ... Frankly for their cost they should be when compared to TH/SS Terminators.
Agreed, though smart placement of objectives prior to the game (depending on scenario) could give you some really nice "stepping stones" or something as nihilakh
Also, Warriors should be in boxes of 10 without Scarabs and Scarabs need their own box. This obviously requires a recast.
Of course, doing this would result in a box of 10 warriors for the same price we currently get 12 warriors + scarabs, and scarabs would be extra on top of that...
em_en_oh_pee wrote: What are folks thinking for the core of troops for this army going forward?
I really like the idea of 15- or 20-man blobs of Warriors with a Ghost Ark and a Chrono Cryptek for the 5++, but I have no idea if that is even viable.
Ive tried some games with Silver Tide (2x 20 Warriors).
It got a major improvement with the auto-pass morale warlord trait. Because of the Iluminor Szeras is pretty much an auto-include with it.
Mephrit is also a great Dynasty for them, turning their lethality up to 11.
However.... their biggest problem is mobility. Taking Sautekh or Nehilikh Dynasty will help you out, but you wanna keep that sweet Mephrit trait with them.
The Deceiver can work, but requires you to roll a 3 on the Grand Illusion ability. (2 units of Warriors and their Ceyptek buffer). And also kind of only works if you get 1st turn.
It might work with the Monolith, I havent looked at all their new strategems yet.
On the topic of a Ghost Ark; previously it wouldnt do much, since a unit of Warriors might get deleted or left to 1-2 models who run away from morale. But again, the new warlord trait might help out here. The Ark did get 10 point cheaper.
No matter what you do, always take max units of 20. Any lower and your opponent will delete them even easier.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: What are folks thinking for the core of troops for this army going forward?
I really like the idea of 15- or 20-man blobs of Warriors with a Ghost Ark and a Chrono Cryptek for the 5++, but I have no idea if that is even viable.
Ive tried some games with Silver Tide (2x 20 Warriors).
It got a major improvement with the auto-pass morale warlord trait. Because of the Iluminor Szeras is pretty much an auto-include with it.
Mephrit is also a great Dynasty for them, turning their lethality up to 11.
However.... their biggest problem is mobility. Taking Sautekh or Nehilikh Dynasty will help you out, but you wanna keep that sweet Mephrit trait with them.
The Deceiver can work, but requires you to roll a 3 on the Grand Illusion ability. (2 units of Warriors and their Ceyptek buffer). And also kind of only works if you get 1st turn.
It might work with the Monolith, I havent looked at all their new strategems yet.
On the topic of a Ghost Ark; previously it wouldnt do much, since a unit of Warriors might get deleted or left to 1-2 models who run away from morale. But again, the new warlord trait might help out here. The Ark did get 10 point cheaper.
No matter what you do, always take max units of 20. Any lower and your opponent will delete them even easier.
Yeah, I could not agree more. The first trait I plan on trying is auto pass moral. I plan on running deceiver, 2 squads of 20, cryptech with veil, and ghost ark with a squad of 10 in it (I only have 50 warriors). My thought is at least one squad is going to get moved by deceiver, the cryptech can veil the other up with the 1st, and the 3rd will get dropped off by the ghost ark running to catch up. Catacomb command barge can also move up to give support. The only question is what dynasty code to run ...
I was leaning towards making my army mostly Mephrit. Now it's looking like Sautehk (mostly for Vanguarg Obyron). His ghostwalk mantle is just too good to pass up compared to a Veil of Darkness (or take them both).
If you take both Obyron and a Veil Lord you're looking at having 700 or 800 points of Necrons pop up anywhere you want them on the board. Options for both bait n' switch and keeping your enemy playing conservatively are both good things.
Some quick thoughts after giving the beta codex a few read-throughs and giving it some time to soak in.
1.) Outrider detachments are by far the easiest to fill for Newcrons. Units of scarabs are a very easy and quick way to fill Fast Attack slots with bite-size units. Scarabs are always useful for objective grabbing, denying deepstrikes, bubblewrap and gnawing on things. The scarab units can be bolstered if players are worried about easy kill points, but Outriders end up being a way to minimize the "tax" associated with getting a unit or two a particular dynasty bonus. Additionally, the FA options in our codex are very strong, with both tomb blades, destroyers and wraiths getting significant buffs from the index.
2.) Taking an optimized diverse list quickly results in a lot of bloat/HQ tax. Many of the strong or core units we want to take function best with different dynasty codes. An example would be a non-Mephrit force wanting to take a cheap detachment to get the Mephrit dynasty code on some Tomb blades and Doomsday ark. Naturally, an Outrider would be the best fit with 39 point token scarab units, but having to have a HQ creates a 80-140 point tax on the unit. For those same points, you could buy 3-4 extra tomb blades or 5 immortals. A token Mephrit HQ probably isn't going to pull its weight in points, and the additional AP on a unit of tomb blades and a doomsday cannon probably is less useful than just having the extra bodies/shots from the 3-4 extra tomb blades or immortals in a different dynasty.
3.) I think the best basic Dynasty is Nephrekh. An automatic 6" advance and being able to ignore other models and terrain is incredibly powerful for getting to objectives and just generally achieving points. Translocation Crypt is also a hum-dinger of stratagem. I like that each dynasty code is useful or "fits best" for different units, as it makes the choice difficult of what to slot each unit into and makes crafting optimized detachments difficult.
4.) We obviously want as much CP as possible, but with our expensive and not-so-grand HQ choices beyond the first 1-2, I don't think it will be best to go for 3-4 detachments that requires 3-5 HQ. I think we might function best simply letting go of our 8+ CP dreams and coming to terms with only having 5-8 per standard game.
5.) Sautekh is very intriguing by itself as it holds the greatest CP potential. Its dynasty specific relic allows for a 33% more CP per game. Packing 6 CP? On average, with the sautekh relic, you'll get a functional 8CP! Sautekh also contains the most characters, one of which is Imotekh - who by himself gives a basic +1CP and functions like 2 Overlords worth of; MWBD. Points-wise, he is probably a strict upgrade other than being less flexible (can't be in two places at once) and having less total wounds, but his extras likely make up for it. The biggest problem with Imotekh is that he only counts as 1 HQ but takes up 200 points of HQ-point-space. This is a problem because if you try for multiple detachments / dynasty codes to optimize the passive abilities, you quickly end up spending ~500 points on 3-4 HQs. This is likely part of the reason he comes with a built-in CP - GW realized what he did to necron detachments/list building and basically gave us a hint that if you're taking him, you will likely end up taking one last detachment in your army.
6.) Wraiths - we aren't sure yet whether they will be D2 (with a large price hike) or D1, but it seems clear they will at least be AP2 now. The answer to how much damage they deal per attack may help with my decision on whether they run best as Nephrekh or Novokh.
Nephrekh: they are stupidly fast. The automatic 6" advance is nuts when they can use a strategem to charge after advancing. They will literally ignore everything - screening units, terrain, and just straight up charge you from 20-30" away.
Novokh: Wraiths will be charging in, falling backing, charging back in, or being charged themselves 100% of the time, so them getting to reroll their to-hit rolls is extremely powerful, especially if they end up being AP2 D2 per attack.
7.) The interplay between our armies (aka our HQs) buffs and keywords is critical to newcrons success. The lack of the <Dynasty> keyword from some units - the inclusion or lack of the "Infantry" label for others makes choosing the optimal HQ for a detachment tricky. An example is Destroyers are infantry, but tomb blades are not for MWBD purposes. You want to make sure your Overlords, Lords, and Crypteks have the correct - in dynasty - units to buff. This is another reason why "tax" or token HQs in a detachment to get some units with the right dynasty codes can be a trap resulting in the HQ not being even remotely useful. Szeras gets a special note here as being a great "tax" HQ to put into a small detachment, as he can deploy and do whatever he wants and doesn't care about what detachment you put him in.
With the above thoughts in mind, I came up with some detachments/modules that could slot in or out of armies; or which can make up the core of an army. I think two of the hardest decision are whether to bring two overlords just just the one Imotekh, and relatedly, whether to take 2 or 3 detachments. The points are obviously in flux since we don't know if beta codex or forgebane or index is most accurate currently.
Spoiler:
Nephrekh Outrider (+1 CP) – 468 pts
[HQ] Cryptek – Canoptek cloak(+10pts), Staff of Light (+10pts) = 90 pts
o ^^^ OR use Illuminor Szeras – who deploys with Immortals/Warriors^^^
[FA] x6 Destroyers = 300 pts
[FA] x3 Scarabs = 39 pts
[FA] x3 Scarabs = 39 pts
Self-Destruction – 1 CP – scarab explodes to deal d3 mortal wounds on a 2+
Extermination Protocols – 1 CP – Destroyers reroll hit & wound rolls one shooting phase
Translocation Crypt – 1 CP – Unit deepstrike @ end of movement phase (isn’t deployed)
Adaptive Subroutines – 1 CP – Canoptek unit can still shoot/charge after advancing.
Disruption Fields – 1 CP – necron infantry unit increases str. by 1 until end of the phase
Blood Rites – 3 CP – a unit fights a second time in the fight phase
The Novokh Outrider detachment is mostly for fun, and was a test to see if it would be worth it to create a Novokh detachment in an otherwise shooting army for the sake of a unit of Wraiths. The inclusion of lychguard is more for fun, but it then necessitated bringing a veil of darkness overlord - and if you're doing that, you might as well give it implacable conqueror to go for that ~65-75% chance of a turn 1 charge.
I think competitively, the lychguard might not be worth including, and should instead be replaced with another unit of wraiths. This would allow one of the Sautekh overlords to get the 5+ CP-refund warlord trait - one of the primary reasons of bringing the Sautekh battalion in the first place. If not bringing Imotekh or the Sautekh warlord trait for more CPs, I think the battalion would be better off being Mephrit and then you could throw in some Tomb Blades & Doomsday Arks with them.
Other units / packages I am interested in slotting into detachments:
I think it has a large deficiency of anti-tank, but the hope would be deepstriking, exterminating destroyers + doomsday ark can hopefully deal with some armor but it would then likely rely on wraiths and scarabs trying to tie down the rest (and likely fail >.< . I think 2 DDA and a tesseract ark might be staple anti-armor selections for necrons. Especially if they are Mephrit....all 3 are very very good at killing armor and then equally as scary at closer ranges when they use their secondary firing options/guns to put out a very impressive amount of anti-infantry shots.
^
Very good thoughts overall, many things similar to mine. Have something to add:
1. Tomb blades with particle shredder and no other options is the way to go for me. They have greatest survivability (due to low price, 24 pts per model - where you have 6 bodies per 37 pts you can get 9 per 24) and a lot of firepower. Especially under Mephrit code.
2. I think that Mephrit code gives a lot of value to tomb blades, immortals, warriors. I value it more than sautekh, which you take in both lists mainly for warlord trait.
Nice writeup! Ive got some feedback regarding your army list:
For the Scarabs, id say either make 2 minimum units as objective sitters and save some points, or a max squad of 9 that can deepstrike along with the Destroyers.
Id also try to use some of the points to max out the Immortal and warrior blob. Especially since you want to run Szeras with them.
In unsure about the Staffs of Light on the Overlords. If they get bumped up to 17 points, it might become too expensive.
Id also turn one Overlord into a Lord, who can run with the blob while the Overlord can Veil away with the Gauss Immortals.
And finally, id make the Tomb Blades into one big squad of nine so they can benefit the most from RP.
A mass of slowly advancing warriors is undeniably cool but it has a couple of big problems:
1) Warriors don't do a lot of damage
2) It's not hard to wipe out a unit of 20 T4 4+sv infantry in one turn and deny RP- This is the main problem.
Solutions:
1) There's only so much that can be done here and it's fairly obvious: Overlord, Lord + Triarch Stalker makes the warriors hit on 2's rerolling 1's and reroll 1's to wound.
2) A Cryptek + Ghost Ark can keep the Warriors coming back, but they have to not get wiped first. You can't make Warriors more durable so you have to employ tactics to help them survive. The best way I can see to do this is to deploy them defensively (far back and in cover) then use the rest of your list to cripple the opponents anti infantry firepower on T1. This could be done with deep striking Destroyers and Immortals as well as long range/fast moving shooting like DDAs and Tomb Blades.
So, a core of:
Overlord
Lord
Cryptek
20 Warriors
20 Warriors
Ghost Ark
Triarch Stalker
With fire support from:
6 Destroyers
10 Immortals
DDA DDA
Step 1 - Deploy the core defensively
Step 2 - Deep strike the Destroyers and Immortals to target infantry and use the Stalker and DDAs to target tanks/MCs, reducing enemy anti-infantry.
Step 3 - Advance the core forward hoping the opponent no longer has enough anti-infantry to wipe 20 Warriors a turn.
Step 4 - Grind out a victory with indestructible Warriors.
There's some points left from 2000 for a couple of scarab screen units. The Destroyers and Immortals are expendable and will almost certainly be killed before the Warriors, which is good for this list.
cuda1179 wrote: I was leaning towards making my army mostly Mephrit. Now it's looking like Sautehk (mostly for Vanguarg Obyron). His ghostwalk mantle is just too good to pass up compared to a Veil of Darkness (or take them both).
If you take both Obyron and a Veil Lord you're looking at having 700 or 800 points of Necrons pop up anywhere you want them on the board. Options for both bait n' switch and keeping your enemy playing conservatively are both good things.
Correct me if I am wrong, but based on the wording of Obyron, you would need Nemesor to utilize the Ghostwalk Mantle, as it stipulates the end position must be 6" of Nemesor.
As for Silver Tide, I just am thinking Arks may be my go-to instead. I am not sure Tide will be fast enough to go take objectives, which worries me.
Galef wrote: The best part about the change to Destroyers (from a nostalgia pov) is that the Strength and # of shots is now the same as they were when Destroyers were first made in plastic.
The worst part is the ancient sculpt. Anyone make their own or improve the base model any? I am thinking at the bare minimum using the head from the CCB (the dude on the right) and adding something to the insides of the ...exhaust ports? Whatever the sides are. They look weird empty.
I mean, how hard is it really to swap parts from other kits? You get tons of extra heads and arms from all the other kits. For example deathmark heads would look cool on them, so would adding the cage from the back of the Praetorian... The base kit has aged fine IMO, you just need to use some left over bits is all.
Same here, no idea what he's on about, the new kits are the same asthetic lol. Oh sorry, I get to pay through the nose for 5 identical looking models because they gave me the bits to build 5 slightly different but almost identical models. Seriously, he must not actually play Crons because I have a gallon bag full of left over necron parts...
Galef wrote: The best part about the change to Destroyers (from a nostalgia pov) is that the Strength and # of shots is now the same as they were when Destroyers were first made in plastic.
The worst part is the ancient sculpt. Anyone make their own or improve the base model any? I am thinking at the bare minimum using the head from the CCB (the dude on the right) and adding something to the insides of the ...exhaust ports? Whatever the sides are. They look weird empty.
I mean, how hard is it really to swap parts from other kits? You get tons of extra heads and arms from all the other kits. For example deathmark heads would look cool on them, so would adding the cage from the back of the Praetorian... The base kit has aged fine IMO, you just need to use some left over bits is all.
Same here, no idea what he's on about, the new kits are the same asthetic lol. Oh sorry, I get to pay through the nose for 5 identical looking models because they gave me the bits to build 5 slightly different but almost identical models. Seriously, he must not actually play Crons because I have a gallon bag full of left over necron parts...
So hostile about something purely subjective. Calm down. We all have opinions.
Heavy destroyers and destroyer lords are fun units to custom kit bash. My destroyer lord uses a destroyer body with the warscythe from the Lychguard kit and some tomb blade bits. For heavy destroyers I used the stalker gauss cannons and they look awesome. My frustration wasn't as much with using the resin kits as the gauss cannon from the HD kit doesn't look like the rest of the gauss so it felt off.
The dayli community post confirmd the beta rule for wraiths with 2 dmg. Additionaly it suggest that you can buff canoptek rp roll with the stratagem with an cryptek...
stormcraft wrote: The dayli community post confirmd the beta rule for wraiths with 2 dmg. Additionaly it suggest that you can buff canoptek rp roll with the stratagem with an cryptek...
damn, I get the 45% cost increaes in points for wraiths will happen then...
also it has always been the case with the cryptek technomancer rule applies to <dynasty> not just <infantry> so they're just putting out bad advice, not trying to hint some rule change
stormcraft wrote: The dayli community post confirmd the beta rule for wraiths with 2 dmg. Additionaly it suggest that you can buff canoptek rp roll with the stratagem with an cryptek...
What i never noticed was the buff to whip coils, really makes you debate using them now for the points, then again they are 9 points so a bit expensive with the already points increase
stormcraft wrote: The dayli community post confirmd the beta rule for wraiths with 2 dmg. Additionaly it suggest that you can buff canoptek rp roll with the stratagem with an cryptek...
What i never noticed was the buff to whip coils, really makes you debate using them now for the points, then again they are 9 points so a bit expensive with the already points increase
It might be 9pts expensive but it also let's those fallen models to attack even if they died.
Well often your wraiths are a real fire magnet in turn 1 and most of them die from shooting so you get nothing from the 9 points. I think i will run them naked, they are expensive enough and still extremely dangerous if they reach enemy lines, especially now with fall back and charge
cuda1179 wrote: I was leaning towards making my army mostly Mephrit. Now it's looking like Sautehk (mostly for Vanguarg Obyron). His ghostwalk mantle is just too good to pass up compared to a Veil of Darkness (or take them both).
If you take both Obyron and a Veil Lord you're looking at having 700 or 800 points of Necrons pop up anywhere you want them on the board. Options for both bait n' switch and keeping your enemy playing conservatively are both good things.
Correct me if I am wrong, but based on the wording of Obyron, you would need Nemesor to utilize the Ghostwalk Mantle, as it stipulates the end position must be 6" of Nemesor.
Yeah, it almost sounds like he's saying the Ghostwalk Mantle can be used without Zahndrekh.
Don't get me wrong, for all we know maybe they might fix it in the Codex, and if they do it'll be amazing. But at the moment, yeah, Beta Codex says you have to land next to Zahndrekh if using Obyron's Ghostmantle ability, so not exactly an auto include.
I just realised that Nilakh Warriors, near a Cryptek with the 5++ aura, can get a 4++ vs ranged weapons if you spend 2CP. Pricey but at least it a way to potentially boost their survivability.
Or anything else... 2++ Wraiths, for example. If you put an objective in cover (or just don't move) now you're getting +2 to your save... so 2+ Warriors. I really like the utility of this one, especially if you have the option to deepstrike onto objectives you can use this to set up a really solid beachhead. Maybe even drop a monolith down, give it a 2+, use it to clear chafe, then teleport three units to it next turn ready to charge, rapid fire, etc
Slashy McTalons wrote: I just realised that Nilakh Warriors, near a Cryptek with the 5++ aura, can get a 4++ vs ranged weapons if you spend 2CP. Pricey but at least it a way to potentially boost their survivability.
Sounds powerful, but its also a trap.
Ive never seen the 5++ aura as very useful for Warriors. Simply because they will very rarely be shot by AP-2 weapons on masse. Eldar Bladestorm, Rubric Marines and massive amounts of Plasma are the only things I can think of.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So we have official codex leaks now? How close is everything so far?
The Community reveals have been Spot on so far, forgebane gave us some doubts, but it looks like it's based on an earlier version or balanced in a specific way.
I have a feeling dimensional corridor strategy might have some interesting uses with Nemesor x Obyron's mantle.
Just keep nemesor out of the combat obyron and his crew are in and then Zhan can be ported to a new area of the battlefield and then obyron can tp a squad with him that needs to get out of the fight to heal and get into cover etc.
Maybe if you have two monoliths 1 really close tot he fight and one just barely in weapons range (but hopefully both close enough to port out stuff to claim objectives as needed/if needed) this can become a relay system for pumping out a fresh squad via offworld gateing to reassign Obyron to after he brings back an injured crew to heal up and hold a position and you bring Nemesor between the two monoliths each turn as needed and then Obyron Ghostwalks a fresh squad shield in front of Nemesor to put in work.
I'll have to put in some thought on how to best use this…
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So we have official codex leaks now? How close is everything so far?
The Community reveals have been Spot on so far, forgebane gave us some doubts, but it looks like it's based on an earlier version or balanced in a specific way.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was either of those circumstances and that the leaked Codex is really the final one.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So we have official codex leaks now? How close is everything so far?
The Community reveals have been Spot on so far, forgebane gave us some doubts, but it looks like it's based on an earlier version or balanced in a specific way.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was either of those circumstances and that the leaked Codex is really the final one.
God I hope not. I am so hoping that my obelisk gets some sort of invulnerable save..... Or quantum shielding. Anything.....
They also didnt talk about the beta codex new rule for wraiths which made them un-tarpittable(if it wasnt a word, it is now)
So I wonder if that rule is removed or no.
Also if they are back to 54 points per naked model thats a complete no from me.as I can have 4 scarabs per one wraith, which is a no brainer in my opinion.
I have been looking at the "Reclaim A Lost Empire" stratagem and noticed it affects any Nihilakh unit without restriction So it can be used on any unit with <dynasty> keyword. So here's my conundrum. Is it better to give this stratagem to a Gauss Pylon or Tesseract Vault?
With a Gauss Pylon is grants it a 2+ save with a 4++ invul for any Necron units within 6" including itself. It also gets 1 attack but don't think it can attack in CC.
On a Tesseract Vault it gives it a 3++ invul which makes it considerably harder to killer. To take full use of this stratagem though you will need to deceiver bomb it into position or have it within movement range of an objective.
Od -
Not sure if that strat would apply to GP's aoe invul field so that every unit gets that. I imagine its still just a 5+ for all in range and it is more efficient with it for 4+ for itself. Granted if it does GP would be a decent fit considering it doesn't move at all. *chuckle* Also none of the other dynasty codes would really apply for a GP, well save for maybe mephrit circumstantial (and if you wanted the lols of having a -6 ap weapon). The +1 to hit though would only apply if charged, though considering stuff auto hits GP any target eliminated would be helpful in keeping it alive.
As for TV, it's a decently mobile model and the range on some of its abilities is kind of iffy so you might need to keep moving it tbh. Plus since it flies and doesn't have a melee weapon and has a 6+ WS you probably want to be pulling it out and shooting if it gets into a melee.
Silver tide: Still here, improved by dynasty codes, warlord traits, and stratagems. The points cost weren't really adjusted, and it's still short on anti-vehicle. There is some assumption this will be the default play style. Best dynasties are Sautekh, Mephrit, and Nihilakh.
QS Spam: Surprisingly still doable, the DDA has gotten better, the CCB has some great relics and warlord traits that can make it much better. Annihilation Barges are still middling though, I think the problem is tesla is still kind underwhelming. The stalker got a little cheaper in some configs, but is about the same overall, which means it comparatively got worse. Still there is something to be said for presenting a single target profile, and then having a good defense against the weapons designed to hurt that target profile. Best Dynasties will be Mephrit and Nihilakh.
Deceiver Bomb: Got more bomb like, with the right dynasty you can almost move your entire army into your opponents deployment zone. Even setting aside the main concern which is competitive players of 8th ed have gotten really good screening out deep strike, The question is and has been, why? It still seems too situational to rely on, but might be fun in a game of beerhammer. Best dynasty is without a doubt Nephrekh, setting units up in deep strike reserve that can't be pulled via deceiver or monlith.
Wraithwing: With wraiths getting a dynasty codes, and having stratagems that allow them to be better at getting into CC, it seems like it got better. However two things stop it from being a pure win. First is wraiths got a significant price increase as well as changes that left them in a different role. They now function more in the role of Heavy infantry killer with a minor in anti-vehicle, having that kind of a role and being expensive makes them less desirable to spam. The other issue is that they are pretty CP hungry, and since most wraith wings run as outriders that can be a problem. Best dynasty is of course Novokh, rerolling misses on every turn you charge means you'll reroll misses almost every time they are attacking.
Non-wraith Outriders: whether it's destroyer cults, tomb blade spam, or some mix of the two, our outrider options are pretty fantastic. Destroyers got buffed and tomb blades got discounted and buffed, and both pack some great fire power. They will be CP hungry, and will be forced to take min sized battalions of immortals and lords to get CP. I think this will actually be the default list style for necrons. Best Dynasty is mephrit (because they will get into half range really quickly).
Novokh could probably work for destroyers as well, especially if you have a destroyer lord.
They do have 2 attacks each, which can do something, especially if you shot first.
