Wonder how effective Novokh Scarabs would be using some strats?
Any way to make them shine?

 Ghaz wrote:

Doctoralex wrote:
I do hope this gets faqd, because the Vault has both the Ctan Shard and Dynasty keyword. So can it benefit from dynasty stuff or...?

The fluff doesn't support giving either the C'tan or the Tesseract Vault the <DYNASTY> keyword.

The wording for the dynasty bonus flat out says shards do not bonus, so while this may be fixed in the final codex by either removing it's <dynasty> keyword or rewording the dynasty rules, for now it cannot gain the benefit

 MinscS2 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:


So hostile about something purely subjective. Calm down. We all have opinions.

There's a reason why he's on my ignore-list.

Apparantly so you can not ignore me and through jabs? ROFL...

So to expand on my last post, I wanted to cover the big change 8th ed will bring, salads. The most taken faction for a salad will undoubtedly be Novokh, the Dynasty code is great for certain units but you wouldn't want it on your whole army. It's a straight 22% upgrade for units hitting on 3s and a 25% upgrade for units hitting on 4s.

Since Novokh will be a splash and not a main course, you'll run the code in a 1cp detachment, two contenders for that vanguard and outrider. Vanguard gives you access to flayed ones and lychguard, but having to take three of them is kind of a drag. The better option I think would be outrider, grab a unit of wraiths (who get much more efficient with Novokh), two units of scarabs, and then add lychguard or flayed ones as suits your fancy.

That leaves us with two detachments to fill out, and since we need command points there has to be some kind of battalion. Choice of dynasty for this battalion is between three dynasties, Sautekh, Nephrek or Mephrit. Sautekh is in the running because of hyperlogic strategist will end up being an extra two or three CP, their code isn't bad on infantry, and warriors/immortals are the most likely to use their unique stratagem. Nephrek is on the list because teleporting durable obsec units 11" to capture/disrupt objectives is a good enough trick to build a list around, and placing units into deep strike reserve for a CP is also pretty hot. Mephrit is ok on it's own, but infantry are not likely to get into half range of units they want to get into half range of, so you'll take Mephrit to share Buffs and HQ abilities with the third detachment.

The third detachment is a no brainer, mephrit outrider. Destroyers and tomb blades are much too valuable to leave out of a list, and since they don't really benefit from the Novokh code, spinning them into their own detachment with a seperate code makes sense. Mephrit is the obvious winner here since you can expect fast units to get in close, and talent for annihilation is a solid damage boost.

what do you guys think, that seem like the correct outline for necron salad?

Honestly there's just so much I want to do, to be honest.
1. A Vanguard of Mephrit Deathmarks
2. Sautekh Spearhead with Stormlord buffing Heavy Destroyers
3. Nikhlakh Spearhead with DDAs
4. Novokh Scarabs and Wraiths and Flayed Ones
5. Nephrekh Tesla Immortals

Can't fit everything in though can I?

... am I crazy for thinking a brigade might be possible?

Like, everyone's probably going to be taking a Battalion + 1 or 2 Detachments, right?
So if you go three units of 10 Immortals for the mandatory Batt Troop take you'd actually have your six units for Brig if you split those in half. Yes, not as survivable as full Immortal squads, but you'll be able to cover more ground.
If taking Batt + an additional detachment you'd already have a third HQ, so there's that Brig requirement filled, too.
Three Fast takes is easy to fill.
Three Heavy shouldn't be too hard (maybe 2 DDA + 1 Spyder for repairs).
That just leaves an Elite tax.
Cheapest take there is probably Flayed Ones, but I have a feeling Deathmarks might be more useful (counter deep strike & character sniping).

Granted, it might not have as much flavor as a Dynasty salad, but with 9+3 CP that's a hell of a lot of Strats you'll be able to throw around.

 Grimgold wrote:
So to expand on my last post, I wanted to cover the big change 8th ed will bring, salads.

Spoiler:

The most taken faction for a salad will undoubtedly be Novokh, the Dynasty code is great for certain units but you wouldn't want it on your whole army. It's a straight 22% upgrade for units hitting on 3s and a 25% upgrade for units hitting on 4s.

Since Novokh will be a splash and not a main course, you'll run the code in a 1cp detachment, two contenders for that vanguard and outrider. Vanguard gives you access to flayed ones and lychguard, but having to take three of them is kind of a drag. The better option I think would be outrider, grab a unit of wraiths (who get much more efficient with Novokh), two units of scarabs, and then add lychguard or flayed ones as suits your fancy.

That leaves us with two detachments to fill out, and since we need command points there has to be some kind of battalion. Choice of dynasty for this battalion is between three dynasties, Sautekh, Nephrek or Mephrit. Sautekh is in the running because of hyperlogic strategist will end up being an extra two or three CP, their code isn't bad on infantry, and warriors/immortals are the most likely to use their unique stratagem. Nephrek is on the list because teleporting durable obsec units 11" to capture/disrupt objectives is a good enough trick to build a list around, and placing units into deep strike reserve for a CP is also pretty hot. Mephrit is ok on it's own, but infantry are not likely to get into half range of units they want to get into half range of, so you'll take Mephrit to share Buffs and HQ abilities with the third detachment.

The third detachment is a no brainer, mephrit outrider. Destroyers and tomb blades are much too valuable to leave out of a list, and since they don't really benefit from the Novokh code, spinning them into their own detachment with a seperate code makes sense. Mephrit is the obvious winner here since you can expect fast units to get in close, and talent for annihilation is a solid damage boost.

what do you guys think, that seem like the correct outline for necron salad?

A couple of detachments I quite like:

Nephrek outrider:

Cloaktek
3x Scarabs
6x Destroyers
9x Tesla Tomb Blades

750-ish points.

A lot of mobile firepower with a screen and a support character. You could put the Destroyers and Tomb Blades(Edit: Nope!) in Translocation Crypt deployment (2 units in reserve + 2 on the board). 2 of these detachments with a minimal 3x 5 Immortal battalion would give a list with a lot of MSU units for board control and 4 nasty deep striking shooters.


Sautekh Spearhead:

Cloaktek
Anni Barge + GC
Anni Barge + GC
Anni Barge + GC
DDA
DDA

900 odd points. All the vehicles get some benefit from the Sautekh code as they have heavy weapons. The ABs can make good use of Methodical Destruction too: shoot one of the Gauss cannons at a unit to trigger the strat then you get 24 destructor shots with extra hits on 5s and 6s. A nice way to get the WL trait we all want.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
You could put Tomb Blades in Translocation Crypt deployment

Im afraid not. Translocation Crypt only works on infantry and swarm units.

Oops. You really don't want such a juicy unit vulnerable to alpha.

 Grimgold wrote:
So to expand on my last post, I wanted to cover the big change 8th ed will bring, salads. The most taken faction for a salad will undoubtedly be Novokh, the Dynasty code is great for certain units but you wouldn't want it on your whole army. It's a straight 22% upgrade for units hitting on 3s and a 25% upgrade for units hitting on 4s.

Since Novokh will be a splash and not a main course, you'll run the code in a 1cp detachment, two contenders for that vanguard and outrider. Vanguard gives you access to flayed ones and lychguard, but having to take three of them is kind of a drag. The better option I think would be outrider, grab a unit of wraiths (who get much more efficient with Novokh), two units of scarabs, and then add lychguard or flayed ones as suits your fancy.

That leaves us with two detachments to fill out, and since we need command points there has to be some kind of battalion. Choice of dynasty for this battalion is between three dynasties, Sautekh, Nephrek or Mephrit. Sautekh is in the running because of hyperlogic strategist will end up being an extra two or three CP, their code isn't bad on infantry, and warriors/immortals are the most likely to use their unique stratagem. Nephrek is on the list because teleporting durable obsec units 11" to capture/disrupt objectives is a good enough trick to build a list around, and placing units into deep strike reserve for a CP is also pretty hot. Mephrit is ok on it's own, but infantry are not likely to get into half range of units they want to get into half range of, so you'll take Mephrit to share Buffs and HQ abilities with the third detachment.

The third detachment is a no brainer, mephrit outrider. Destroyers and tomb blades are much too valuable to leave out of a list, and since they don't really benefit from the Novokh code, spinning them into their own detachment with a seperate code makes sense. Mephrit is the obvious winner here since you can expect fast units to get in close, and talent for annihilation is a solid damage boost.

what do you guys think, that seem like the correct outline for necron salad?

If by upgrade you mean increase in percentage of the final wounds inflicted on the target, then the bonus is actually bigger than that.

We are talking +33% for 3+ and +50% for 4+.

We discussed about ccb merphit sniper and ctan sniper power for lov wound char. What about deathmarks? They are cheaper, have infrantry keyword, deep strike and can counter opponent deepstrike. Its means more flexible.

The cheapest brigade cost about 1400 pts so it can work only for 2000 limit.

We also discussed about GEQ counter. In my mathammer MVBD immo and shield tb, both tessla, win with GEQ on 12-24" range. Have GEQ any posibility to move 12" and full fire? If not it was our answer for GEQ. Keep distance and a lot of tessla.

Kuguar6 wrote:
We discussed about ccb merphit sniper and ctan sniper power for lov wound char. What about deathmarks? They are cheaper, have infrantry keyword, deep strike and can counter opponent deepstrike.

Why not both? The Mephrit Snipe-barge can soften up the target before the Deathmarks finish him. Mephrit dynasty is perfect for both of them as well; the Deathmarks obviously benefit from it.
And the Snipe-barge gets increased range with the Mephrit warlord trait, thus more half-range for the extra ap.
The problem for this to fully work is that it takes a relic (the Mephrit Staff of Light) and a warlord trait (Mephrit). Is that worth it?

So it's all Destroyers - Wraiths right now. Agree they are strong, a pitty i have all models but these two.... :(

What else do we have?
I was computing Pretorains against wraith.

On one side i have 6 Wraith + whip coil, i'll have a cryptek with a cape following and on both sides i'll add C'tan the Nightbringer cause i think he add a cool punch, following the wraiths and targeting key HQs.
634pts. you get 6*3 attacks S6 Ap-2 Dmg2. 18 wounds with a 3++ save. You'll need to spend 2CP to RP those guys though.

On the other side i'll get 10 pretorians+voidblade + pistol, followed by Anraky since he gives +1A to infantry and is the only one to be able to boost faction-less pretorains. I'll add the same C'tan Nightbringer.
Thats 697pts for you, close, but the HQ costs almost double than the Cryptek. If Anraky is close from the pretorian (which will happen most of the time except on charge turn when the pretorians go out ahead) you get 10*4 attacks, S5 ap-3 Dmg1 + a S6 pistol. You can spend your 2CP on other stratagem, mainly for comparison purpose 1CP to reroll RP of 1s, so that both RP are comparable even without cryptek here.


I think both are more or less equivalent. Both move 10'' and fly or go through obstacle. At least pretorians can take out flyers in close combat (which i did in 3 games under the index cost, so it does happen).
Pretorians can deal a huge amount of attacks, 40, compared to the 18 for the wraiths (not counting pistols, which the wraith can have too if you go that route). AP is a tad higher too, not that it makes a big difference most of the time. But that's still 16% more wounds for 4+ save and better.
You can MWBD pretorians, and they also have their +1 to hit own stratagem.
Wraith though could shoot with their heavy weapon before charging adding more punch.
Wraith of course deal 2DMG to those they wound, making potential 36 wounds vs 40 wound for the pretorians.
Wraith are more survivable, having effective 30 wounds vs 20 for pretorians. Not that it will make a huge difference against ennemies dealling D3+ wounds.

I conclude that even if people are all wraith right now, pretorians can be a viable option. Mainly used against high numer/1 wound targets cause they pump out way more attacks.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
A couple of detachments I quite like:

Nephrek outrider:

Cloaktek
3x Scarabs
6x Destroyers
9x Tesla Tomb Blades

750-ish points.

A lot of mobile firepower with a screen and a support character. You could put the Destroyers and Tomb Blades(Edit: Nope!) in Translocation Crypt deployment (2 units in reserve + 2 on the board). 2 of these detachments with a minimal 3x 5 Immortal battalion would give a list with a lot of MSU units for board control and 4 nasty deep striking shooters.

Oooh! I had the exact same set-up on my drawing board. Great minds and all that. I was thinking Mephrit though, because they will often be mobile enough to get into that bonus range. Makes their weapons even nastier. My only issue then is that I want the Cloaktek to buff the Destroyers, but will likely want to Deep Strike them via Translocation. So getting that Cloaktek up to them to benefit might be tough and maybe not worth it and he may struggle to keep up with the TBs.

BUT! I love the idea nevertheless. I think it is a strong option.

 Grimgold wrote:
So to expand on my last post, I wanted to cover the big change 8th ed will bring, salads. The most taken faction for a salad will undoubtedly be Novokh, the Dynasty code is great for certain units but you wouldn't want it on your whole army. It's a straight 22% upgrade for units hitting on 3s and a 25% upgrade for units hitting on 4s.

Since Novokh will be a splash and not a main course, you'll run the code in a 1cp detachment, two contenders for that vanguard and outrider. Vanguard gives you access to flayed ones and lychguard, but having to take three of them is kind of a drag. The better option I think would be outrider, grab a unit of wraiths (who get much more efficient with Novokh), two units of scarabs, and then add lychguard or flayed ones as suits your fancy.

That leaves us with two detachments to fill out, and since we need command points there has to be some kind of battalion. Choice of dynasty for this battalion is between three dynasties, Sautekh, Nephrek or Mephrit. Sautekh is in the running because of hyperlogic strategist will end up being an extra two or three CP, their code isn't bad on infantry, and warriors/immortals are the most likely to use their unique stratagem. Nephrek is on the list because teleporting durable obsec units 11" to capture/disrupt objectives is a good enough trick to build a list around, and placing units into deep strike reserve for a CP is also pretty hot. Mephrit is ok on it's own, but infantry are not likely to get into half range of units they want to get into half range of, so you'll take Mephrit to share Buffs and HQ abilities with the third detachment.

The third detachment is a no brainer, mephrit outrider. Destroyers and tomb blades are much too valuable to leave out of a list, and since they don't really benefit from the Novokh code, spinning them into their own detachment with a seperate code makes sense. Mephrit is the obvious winner here since you can expect fast units to get in close, and talent for annihilation is a solid damage boost.

what do you guys think, that seem like the correct outline for necron salad?

The more I think about it, the more I think that this is going to be correct. Hyperlogic Strategy is pretty hard to pass up, and the Sautekh code is pretty good if you put your heavy support into the battalion. Mephrit and Novokh Are also pretty much custom built for the detachments you outlined. I think the key use of stratagems are going to be very important, they have all shown to be pretty powerful.

Da W wrote:
So it's all Destroyers - Wraiths right now. Agree they are strong, a pitty i have all models but these two.... :(

What else do we have?
I was computing Pretorains against wraith.

On one side i have 6 Wraith + whip coil, i'll have a cryptek with a cape following and on both sides i'll add C'tan the Nightbringer cause i think he add a cool punch, following the wraiths and targeting key HQs.
634pts. you get 6*3 attacks S6 Ap-2 Dmg2. 18 wounds with a 3++ save. You'll need to spend 2CP to RP those guys though.

On the other side i'll get 10 pretorians+voidblade + pistol, followed by Anraky since he gives +1A to infantry and is the only one to be able to boost faction-less pretorains. I'll add the same C'tan Nightbringer.
Thats 697pts for you, close, but the HQ costs almost double than the Cryptek. If Anraky is close from the pretorian (which will happen most of the time except on charge turn when the pretorians go out ahead) you get 10*4 attacks, S5 ap-3 Dmg1 + a S6 pistol. You can spend your 2CP on other stratagem, mainly for comparison purpose 1CP to reroll RP of 1s, so that both RP are comparable even without cryptek here.


I think both are more or less equivalent. Both move 10'' and fly or go through obstacle. At least pretorians can take out flyers in close combat (which i did in 3 games under the index cost, so it does happen).
Pretorians can deal a huge amount of attacks, 40, compared to the 18 for the wraiths (not counting pistols, which the wraith can have too if you go that route). AP is a tad higher too, not that it makes a big difference most of the time. But that's still 16% more wounds for 4+ save and better.
You can MWBD pretorians, and they also have their +1 to hit own stratagem.
Wraith though could shoot with their heavy weapon before charging adding more punch.
Wraith of course deal 2DMG to those they wound, making potential 36 wounds vs 40 wound for the pretorians.
Wraith are more survivable, having effective 30 wounds vs 20 for pretorians. Not that it will make a huge difference against ennemies dealling D3+ wounds.

I conclude that even if people are all wraith right now, pretorians can be a viable option. Mainly used against high numer/1 wound targets cause they pump out way more attacks.

I hadn't done any Mathhammer on it yet, but I wanted to specifically comment on the Voidblades with Anrakyr thing.

If he is around, you're probably better off with the Rods instead. Yeah it's one less attack, but 3 vs 4 is still good with those stats, and more importantly you get your pretty good shooting attack as well.

Any other new units coming our way outside the new cryptek model? I would love to see plastic flayed ones. The resin kits are frustrating to deal with and that is when I am doing one-off characters. Building 20 infantry that way (at $180 no less) would drive me nuts.

Morris782 wrote:
Any other new units coming our way outside the new cryptek model? I would love to see plastic flayed ones. The resin kits are frustrating to deal with and that is when I am doing one-off characters. Building 20 infantry that way (at $180 no less) would drive me nuts.

Make your own from plastic warriors. Find some nice convers in net.

I don't see that Mephrit has much to offer Destroyers. They're already AP-3. And it's going to be hard to get them into half range of anything good if you're deploying them on the table. Nephrek seems like easily the best place for them because they so badly want to deep strike.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I don't see that Mephrit has much to offer Destroyers. They're already AP-3. And it's going to be hard to get them into half range of anything good if you're deploying them on the table. Nephrek seems like easily the best place for them because they so badly want to deep strike.

Oh, yeah. Good point. Forgot that Translocation was Nephrekh exclusive. That is more important than pretty much anything, so they don't eat an alpha strike and can make theirs.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I don't see that Mephrit has much to offer Destroyers. They're already AP-3. And it's going to be hard to get them into half range of anything good if you're deploying them on the table. Nephrek seems like easily the best place for them because they so badly want to deep strike.

I'm a big fan of Talent for annihilation, and it could work well for Tomb Blades as well. I can see the benefit of a single detachment for that with Mephrit.

Community post just released. DDA is Heavy D6 for both Cannon types. DDA low power mode is now range 36" S8 -2 D3 rather than 24".

They also confirmed that Lychguard can be given a 2+ invul when using their Stratagem and "reclaim a lost empire" Stratagem.

Hmmm, was considering making dynasty notes for myself as quicky reference for building armies.

ie - What dynasty codes work with 'X' unit. Either just flat out 'there is no better option' or 'primarily use X but if using them for this use Y or Z.'

I want to say Mephrit will be the more or less go to on Deathmarks, if only cause they're a rapid firing weapon with 0 ap.

Though for some reason I keep looking at Sautekh and Nephrek. Is it my imagination or would Sautekh be the more long standing 'continue to pursue and still cause damage' useage of DM's making them a Harrying unit. Plus if in a Sautekh infantry build they might occassionally be in range for a MWBD as the match goes on.

Where as Nephrek would be the 'quick reposition!' use of Dm's that are mostly there as either a trap or bait but they're stuck not shooting any round they advance to do this though so it kind of sticks in my teeth a little....

Any suggestions/advice on playing with DM's and these Dynasty codes?

Spoletta wrote:


If by upgrade you mean increase in percentage of the final wounds inflicted on the target, then the bonus is actually bigger than that.

We are talking +33% for 3+ and +50% for 4+.

Did I get that wrong, let see 3+ would be 1/3 * 2/3 = (2/9)/(2/3) = 33%, yup looks like I stopped one step short there and gave the percent chance of getting an extra hit rather than the percent increase in effectiveness.

As for nephrek for the second outrider, I can see that, start with tomb blades on the board and deep strike the destroyers, go for the same dynasty code in the battalion. Warlord trait is probably a write off though, so you'll grab Immortal Pride as that's the best of the rest. Also no damage boosting stratagems, but without access to a CP saving warlord trait you'll probably want to be sparring on such anyway.

Edit - also tomorrow will be where the rubber meets the road as far as the leaks are concerned. I suspect that nobody was given the complete codex, because in the leak there were a lot of things that seem conspicuously unaltered. One of those units is the doom scythe, and tomorrows preview will cover the doom scythe.

Today's article also didn't mention points reductions to Lychguard or the +1 Str increase to Hyperphase swords. Hmm..

It was also a bit strategically tone deaf to the current meta and the way the current rules work.

To maintain a 4” no-man’s land around an 8”x4” model, you need a monumental number of Lychguard... which will be dead points when your opponent logically “attacks where you’re not.”

Today's article also proves that Lychguard w/ Sword n Board are still a 4++. If they don't get a massive points decrease I don't see anyone using them. When you compare them to Wraiths there is almost no reason to take them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sieGermans wrote:
It was also a bit strategically tone deaf to the current meta and the way the current rules work.

To maintain a 4” no-man’s land around an 8”x4” model, you need a monumental number of Lychguard... which will be dead points when your opponent logically “attacks where you’re not.”

Let alone if you want your Lychguard to have a 2++ invul and to reflect damage on natural saves of 6s you are spending 4CPs just to give them a 1 turn buff. That is nearly half our CPs gone just to make them "tankier".

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
Today's article also didn't mention points reductions to Lychguard or the +1 Str increase to Hyperphase swords. Hmm..

I'm hoping that does happen, they need the pt reduction and +1 are would help when dealing with bikes/custodes etc

I don't think they will get a +1 to strength though, as then what's the point of taking scythes? You'll lost 1 pen and 1 damage with the sword, but you will get access to an invul and a pretty neat stratagem, which would probably be better for lychguard in the long run.

Tentative list ideas, using Beta points:

Nephrekh Outrider

Cloaktek w/ Veil of Darkness
6x Destroyers
5x Wraiths
3x Scarabs

Sautekh Battalion
Chronotek
Overlord w/ Scythe, Hyperlogical Strategist
17x Warriors
17x Warriors
10x Immortals
Ghost Ark
2x Tomb Sentinels w/ Gloom

The idea being you Deep Strike the Destroyers, Veil up the Cloaktek and Wraiths, and then roll up the Battalion as a Silver Tide, except for the two tunneling Sentinels that pop up with the other stuff, generally to wreck tanks.

Alternatively, I could do Tomb Blades over the Wraiths (like... 7 of them). Same basic premise though.

Thoughts? Seem competitive or just mediocre?? Too gimmicky?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I don't think they will get a +1 to strength though, as then what's the point of taking scythes?

Even if Hyperphase Swords ended up at Str 6, Scythes still have 1 better AP, 1 better Str and most importantly, 1 better damage.

LG with Swords will get bogged down by vehicles and heavy monsters. LG with Scythes won't.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I don't think they will get a +1 to strength though, as then what's the point of taking scythes?

Even if Hyperphase Swords ended up at Str 6, Scythes still have 1 better AP, 1 better Str and most importantly, 1 better damage.

LG with Swords will get bogged down by vehicles and heavy monsters. LG with Scythes won't.

Yeah, but scytheguard will get killed easier.
Idk, it doesn't seem right to me. I guess it depends on points costs in the end.

Cth - Yeah but the strats real strength only kicks in if they keep firing group after group at you after learning the effect.

Basically the earlier you use it the more bang your getting out of it because of the imrpoved saves but at the same time, the earlier you use it the more likely they are to use those weapons elsewhere which makes me want to consider trying to bait out the meh weapons and then only activating it for the heavier stuff so it has more of an effect if it does rebound.

Isn't the effect always the same though? Its for each roll of a 6 to save, no matter the weapon, the enemy receives a mortal wound, isn't it? In that case, wouldn't it be better to use it against massed small arms fire?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Isn't the effect always the same though? Its for each roll of a 6 to save, no matter the weapon, the enemy receives a mortal wound, isn't it? In that case, wouldn't it be better to use it against massed small arms fire?

Hmm, ok yeah I went back to check~ Yeah the invul becomes 3 and you rebound a mortal wound to the source for every 6. Sorry thought it was rebound the attack on a 6. Yeah against mass small this is better.

Yeah, in 5th ed the shield redirected the attack. In 8th its just a mortal wound. Which is both great and lame.
Great because its another source of mortal wounds, which is always nice.
Lame because it doesn't scale with the attacking weapon. A reflected lascannon will have the same effect as a reflected lasgun. I wish it would inflict a number of mortal wounds equal to the attacking weapon's damage stat. That would be deliciously rage inducing.

I don't think there are many situations where the reflection strat will actually be worth it; one is if you're getting shot by cawl bots, in which case you kill 1.5 kastellans with the stratagem. Outside of that I can't think of any units that do the massive volume of wounds necessary for the reflect to get value.

Does anyone recall the restrictions on the Lord aura of re-roll to-wound of 1s (assuming that's the case)?

Infantry only for the lord.

So after reading and thinking here is the first pass at necron salad:



I wanted to do more with the Novokh detachment but all of our good CC units are so expensive, I just ended up adding more scarabs with leftover points. I went pretty bare bones on the rest, following the old necron adage (if it's worth taking it's worth taking at max unit size) with the destroyers and tomb blades, without mephrit tesla didn't make sense on the tomb blades. I went with warriors because ob sec is a numbers game, I was already planning on taking immortal pride as the warlord trait, so grabbing a foot cryptek with a chronometron was a logical second HQ choice. Obviously 1 CP is already spoken for with putting the destroyers into deep strike reserve. I'm also debating using a second one on upgrading the canoptek cloak Cryptek to the solar staff, good dakka on it and getting rid of overwatch will help melee units.

After putting this list together my worry is I don't have much in the way of crowd clearing, so I may may end up switching it back to mephrit because tesla tomb blades are our best unit for that, and talent for annihilation can do work with that many shots.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't think there are many situations where the reflection strat will actually be worth it; one is if you're getting shot by cawl bots, in which case you kill 1.5 kastellans with the stratagem. Outside of that I can't think of any units that do the massive volume of wounds necessary for the reflect to get value.

Riptides.

v0iddrgn wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't think there are many situations where the reflection strat will actually be worth it; one is if you're getting shot by cawl bots, in which case you kill 1.5 kastellans with the stratagem. Outside of that I can't think of any units that do the massive volume of wounds necessary for the reflect to get value.

Riptides.

Even against a Riptide that has been augmented for pure quantity of shots, totaling out to 30 shots (Nova Charged Heavy Burst Cannon: 18, Smart Missile System x2: 8, Shielded Missile Drones w/ Missile Pod x2: 4), they only suffer 9.333 wounds. 1/6th of 9.333 is 1.5555, which gives us an average of only 1-2 mortal wounds reflected back.

I honestly think that Dispersion Field Amplification is mainly meant to increase the durability of the Lychgaurd when they are being hit with a lot of -1 AP D2+ weapons, and the reflected mortal wounds is just an added bonus.

It also makes players will think twice about dedicating any more of their shots into a 14-20 Wound Unit with 3++, especially when there is a chance that shooting at the Lychgaurd will hurt them as well. You could advance the Lychgaurd into the opponent's face and pop the strat when they try to kill you with high damage weapons. You will likely only lose a few models, and then they will have to decide on whether dedicating anymore fire into them would be a worthy investment. If they dedicate more fire into them, that is less pressure on the rest of your army and into a very durable unit that has a decent chance of surviving depending on the army you are against, as well as a few mortal wounds onto your opponent. If not, you have a chance to RP the lost models back once its your turn and can have the Lychgaurd potentially charge into their army.

All in all, it seems more of a durability enhancer as well as something that makes your opponent think twice about targeting them any further, and also has the added bonus of doing a few mortal wounds to your opponent. A really good Stratagem imo which fits what board and sword Lychgaurd are suppose to do.

I’m considering this and would love some feedback!
Outrider Detachment
Nephrekh Dynasty
HQ:
Kutlakh the World Killer
Toholk the Blinded

Elites:
10x Warscythe Lychguard

Fast Attack:
7x Arab Swarms
6x Arab Swarms
5x Wraith
6x Wraith

Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
No Dynasty
LoW:
Gauss Pylon

Total: 1989/2000
Total CP: 4

Main idea is to get into combat as quick as possible.Tohold allows me to go first a bit more frequently while providing a bonus if I need to have the Pylon on the table turn 1. Kutlakh let's me run and charge, and the Dynasty always gives me 6" runs.

Guys,
PLEASE
Stick lists under spoilers.

This is the tactics discussion thread. Posting lists here is pretty much off topic but we're willing to look at them, but please consider that lists are long and make an already long thread even longer. People coming here to learn about the new codex don't want to have to wade through page after page of irrelevant posts.
Just... please be considerate and post your lists under spoilers.
(I guess I should edit the top post to say that as well so we don't keep getting people coming in and doing so here).

sieGermans wrote:
Does anyone recall the restrictions on the Lord aura of re-roll to-wound of 1s (assuming that's the case)?

Infantry <Dynasty> only.

Da W wrote:So it's all Destroyers -
You can MWBD pretorians, and they also have their +1 to hit own stratagem.

MWBD targets a "friendly <Dynasty> Infantry unit." While Triarch Praetorians are Infantry, they cannot benefit from a Dynastic Code.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Nephrekh Outrider

Cloaktek w/ Veil of Darkness
6x Destroyers
5x Wraiths
3x Scarabs

Sautekh Battalion
. . .
The idea being you Deep Strike the Destroyers, Veil up the Cloaktek and Wraiths, and then . . .

Thoughts? Seem competitive or just mediocre?? Too gimmicky?

Veil of Darkness allows the user to move "one friendly <Dynasty> Infantry unit." Canoptek Wraiths are not Infantry (they are Beasts). Canoptek Scarabs are also not Infantry, they are Swarms. In your list, the Veil of Darkness can only be used to move itself and the unit of Destroyers.

grimgold wrote:

Detachment 1 - Novokh Outrider
HQ
Lord 73
w/ warscythe 11
Relic: Veil of darkness

Fast attack
6 x Wraiths 330

5 x Scarabs 65

5 x Scarabs 65

Same comment as above. Your Lord can only use his Veil of Darkness for himself in your detachment - he cannot bring the Wraiths or Scarabs with him.

Additionally, his The Lord's Will ability only allows "friendly <Dynasty> Infantry units" to re-roll wound rolls of 1, so he is a raw 84 points of dead-weight other than trying to take something out with his warscythe.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Tentative list ideas, using Beta points:

Nephrekh Outrider

Cloaktek w/ Veil of Darkness
6x Destroyers
5x Wraiths
3x Scarabs
[...]

I always would use a Chronotec for supporting Destroyers. The additional 5++ benefits them more in my experience. Sure, you lack some more mobility with the cloak now, but still. My Destroyers always get massively shot with heavy multiwound stuff.

hirojlance wrote:

Da W wrote: You can MWBD pretorians, and they also have their +1 to hit own stratagem.

MWBD targets a "friendly <Dynasty> Infantry unit." While Triarch Praetorians are Infantry, they cannot benefit from a Dynastic Code.

Just an FYI/clarification for new players who might be scrolling past,
Though Praetorians can never benefit from Dynastic Codes, Imotekh and Anrakyr can give them MWBD.

 skoffs wrote:

hirojlance wrote:

Da W wrote: You can MWBD pretorians, and they also have their +1 to hit own stratagem.

MWBD targets a "friendly <Dynasty> Infantry unit." While Triarch Praetorians are Infantry, they cannot benefit from a Dynastic Code.

Just an FYI/clarification for new players who might be scrolling past,
Though Praetorians can never benefit from Dynastic Codes, Imotekh and Anrakyr can give them MWBD.

Indeed! I'm curious to see if this synergy survives into the Codex.

My biggest beef with Anrakyr (his point cost isn't great but not terrible at 167) is I just don't see him ever keeping up with Triarch Praetorians to give them MWBD or his +1 Attack buff. I suppose his best use is defensively for a counter charges. As it stands, I don't think he can even get in our *still* lame transport options because he lacks any <Dynasty>.

Triarch Praetorians are the plug and play unit of the codex. You don't need anything else to synergise with them to unlock further potential.

The main point of the MWBD on them previously was the +1 to hit. The +1 to Charge/+1 to Advance on an already quick unit is neither here nor there.

Now you don't have to MWBD them for +1 to hit as they can use a 1pt Stratagem to unlock that hitting on 2s. Unless you're against a -to hit in combat, they don't really need any further hit bonus. They just run around doing their thing, hitting things on 2+

Wish they would lower the cost of the Praetorians a bit.. they're the coolest models we have.

hirojlance wrote:

Veil of Darkness allows the user to move "one friendly <Dynasty> Infantry unit." Canoptek Wraiths are not Infantry (they are Beasts). Canoptek Scarabs are also not Infantry, they are Swarms. In your list, the Veil of Darkness can only be used to move itself and the unit of Destroyers.

Hm. May be worth tossing the Wraiths then as I am not sure they will get to close in fast enough even with their speed. Any idea for what would be another good hammer unit to bring up with Veil?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DaBraken wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Tentative list ideas, using Beta points:

Nephrekh Outrider

Cloaktek w/ Veil of Darkness
6x Destroyers
5x Wraiths
3x Scarabs
[...]

I always would use a Chronotec for supporting Destroyers. The additional 5++ benefits them more in my experience. Sure, you lack some more mobility with the cloak now, but still. My Destroyers always get massively shot with heavy multiwound stuff.

With Veil movement, it may be worth it. Just as a means to bump their durability, since my Destroyers will be moved up close to the enemy and later movement shouldn't be too bad for the Cryptek as Nephrekh, since I can get the full 6" advance. The 5++ really would be a great buff for them.

A Veil typically wants to move another unit up with it. It'd kind of be a waste to only Veil up a Cryptek all by itself just to buff a unit.
But what would be the optimal unit to Veil up with a Chrono-tek in support of some deep struck Destroyers?

 skoffs wrote:
A Veil typically wants to move another unit up with it. It'd kind of be a waste to only Veil up a Cryptek all by itself just to buff a unit.
But what would be the optimal unit to Veil up with a Chrono-tek in support of some deep struck Destroyers?

Potentially Tesla Immortals prebufed with MWBD to clear chafe/bubble wraps.

sieGermans wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
A Veil typically wants to move another unit up with it. It'd kind of be a waste to only Veil up a Cryptek all by itself just to buff a unit.
But what would be the optimal unit to Veil up with a Chrono-tek in support of some deep struck Destroyers?

Potentially Tesla Immortals prebufed with MWBD to clear chafe/bubble wraps.

Not going to be easy to have an Overlord nearby that way though. Since you are Deep Striking and Veil-ing units into place away from your main force.

I do think Immortals are probably a solid idea.

So has anyone been comparing the betadex with the official teases from GW? Have things been lining up the same? Any changes you've noticed? I haven't had the time to compare.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

sieGermans wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
A Veil typically wants to move another unit up with it. It'd kind of be a waste to only Veil up a Cryptek all by itself just to buff a unit.
But what would be the optimal unit to Veil up with a Chrono-tek in support of some deep struck Destroyers?

Potentially Tesla Immortals prebufed with MWBD to clear chafe/bubble wraps.

Not going to be easy to have an Overlord nearby that way though. Since you are Deep Striking and Veil-ing units into place away from your main force.

I do think Immortals are probably a solid idea.

MWBD is at the start of movement and Veil at the end. Even if they were simultaneous you can still layer them that turn.

sieGermans wrote:


MWBD is at the start of movement and Veil at the end. Even if they were simultaneous you can still layer them that turn.

Good point! Just got to deploy to ensure they are close enough to do it and there you go.

sieGermans wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

sieGermans wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
A Veil typically wants to move another unit up with it. It'd kind of be a waste to only Veil up a Cryptek all by itself just to buff a unit.
But what would be the optimal unit to Veil up with a Chrono-tek in support of some deep struck Destroyers?

Potentially Tesla Immortals prebufed with MWBD to clear chafe/bubble wraps.

Not going to be easy to have an Overlord nearby that way though. Since you are Deep Striking and Veil-ing units into place away from your main force.

I do think Immortals are probably a solid idea.

MWBD is at the start of movement and Veil at the end. Even if they were simultaneous you can still layer them that turn.

That does make a 20 man Warrior blob more appealing doesn't it?

I still don't like the math for Warriors overall but one giant squad popping out of nowhere might scare less savvy players even in a competitive setting...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

sieGermans wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

sieGermans wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
A Veil typically wants to move another unit up with it. It'd kind of be a waste to only Veil up a Cryptek all by itself just to buff a unit.
But what would be the optimal unit to Veil up with a Chrono-tek in support of some deep struck Destroyers?

Potentially Tesla Immortals prebufed with MWBD to clear chafe/bubble wraps.

Not going to be easy to have an Overlord nearby that way though. Since you are Deep Striking and Veil-ing units into place away from your main force.

I do think Immortals are probably a solid idea.

MWBD is at the start of movement and Veil at the end. Even if they were simultaneous you can still layer them that turn.

That does make a 20 man Warrior blob more appealing doesn't it?

I still don't like the math for Warriors overall but one giant squad popping out of nowhere might scare less savvy players even in a competitive setting...

Until you start actually rolling the dice to wound...

Tesla Immortals are also more universally useful when employed on different tactics in different rounds of the tournament, whereas 20 warriors will only otherwise be useful as expensive bubble wrap (compared to similar points in Scarabs).

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/23/preview-the-nephrekh-dynasty-ctan-shards-and-doom-scythesgw-homepage-post-2/

Again, nothing we didn't already know.

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/23/preview-the-nephrekh-dynasty-ctan-shards-and-doom-scythesgw-homepage-post-2/

Again, nothing we didn't already know.

Yup... was really hoping theyd do something to the Doomscythe, like making the Death Ray Assault D3...

Well, at least tomorrow the codex will have reached reviewers and youtubers, hopefully they can show the differences between the beta and release codex.

 SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote:
So has anyone been comparing the betadex with the official teases from GW? Have things been lining up the same? Any changes you've noticed? I haven't had the time to compare.

They've released very few actual statlines, but so far it's all matched up as far as I know - including the upgrade to the Wraith weapons, which the boxed set rules did not reflect. I haven't verified if the wording has changed at all with the stratagems they've unveiled.

With pre-orders starting tomorrow, I think we'll see our first codex reviews in the next few days.


Winters SEO, a youtuber, released his codex review for Tau exactly two weeks ago, and forgebane review 6 days ago. So we can expect his review today or tomorrow if pattern holds.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWVwkGrdqVEGkU3LNlp70fw

Dooms Day Ark look pretty good now. Maybe not equivalent to Guard tanks (my primary army is Guard), but I'm gonna invest in them. I'm not sure though if this codex will make Necrons top tiered really. Thoughts on that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is kind of unfortunate that the Croissants are so woefully underpowered...it's a cool model. Ah well, more dust for it I suppose.

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
Doom Scythes look pretty good now.

What makes you say that?

 skoffs wrote:

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
Doom Scythes look pretty good now.

What makes you say that?

I do believe he meant DDA by reading the rest of his post.

The DDA is definitely usable now, though I think having more destroyers is better for the most part.

Is the Tesseract Ark still better then the DDA? The main reason to take one over a Index DDA was it's D3 shoots and now that it has D6 for both profiles is it still worse then a TA?

I mostly took a TA for it's D6 S8 AP-3 D6 weapon but now that the DDA is Heavy D6 S10 AP -5 D6 or D6 S8 -2 D3 I think I might use the DDA more now. Plus, you will get better millage from the DDAs Gauss arrays then the TA 2 Gauss/Tesla Cannon.

 skoffs wrote:

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
Doom Scythes look pretty good now.

What makes you say that?

Lol yea I meant Doomsday Ark, sorry about that. Edited.

Played a game yesterday vs tau (got whooped bad but had fun so I win?) and there is something just nice about the doomsday ark that reminds me of an evil death ray of awesome. I plan on running 2 of them and using that as my fire base.

Something to note : all the hate vs quantum shields when I see it makes me laugh. A tau commander dropped in with fusion guns (I think that's what it had / was) and didnt do a thing because he was in fusion range and that made the arks super durable. Not even a scratch. Vs the obelisk that was destroyed by 2 broadsides and some infantry. . . Such a waste of a model. Still did 2 wounds to a riptide and took out a few drones before it died a horrid death. Gravity pulse on a 4+ will be amazing against tau (i used the index, no leaked rules or anything).

Azuza001 wrote:
Played a game yesterday vs tau [...]

One of my friends is running Tau, haven't fought him yet - but when I do, I don't think I can stomach a loss. Any other advice from the battle?

Prepare a plan to get in range with something t1 to destroy the shield drones or all your long range firepower like ddas wont do nothing
If he has a riptide and you get t1 focus fire it with everything, beforehe fires up his 3++ for the rest of the game

stormcraft wrote:
Prepare a plan to get in range with something t1 to destroy the shield drones or all your long range firepower like ddas wont do nothing
If he has a riptide and you get t1 focus fire it with everything, beforehe fires up his 3++ for the rest of the game

Fighting Index Tau, Tesla Immortals on the drones were pretty clutch. Has that changed following their Codex drop?

From what I've heard the big winners of the new tau sex were stealth suits, flying commanders and vespid. Not a tau player though so I can't comment too much I just know a guy who's hard-core tau

There are no winners in Tau sex. It's a messy process.

It's an uphill fight to win anything with index necrons, especially so when your fighting a codex army, I wouldn't take your loss to personally.

When it's codex vs codex, you'll have to combine CC with shooting, because I don't think we have enough variety to run a CC only list and will probably lose a shooting match. Most of the units that you would want to be in CC with have fly, so they will drop back and shoot you, so the CC units will need to be super durable, or units you don't care about at all.

They have lots of deep strike shenanigans so making sure you are properly screened will be an important part of setup. Any vehicle without QS is probably not worth taking, with the possible exception of the tesseract vault.

 Aza'Gorod wrote:
From what I've heard the big winners of the new tau sex were stealth suits, flying commanders and vespid. Not a tau player though so I can't comment too much I just know a guy who's hard-core tau

I think you meant SEPTS, not SEX. Although I can't be sure since you use the word "hard-core" in the same post.

Luckily Necrons, being automatons, do not have this issue

 Grimgold wrote:
... you'll have to combine CC with shooting, because I don't think we have enough variety to run a CC only list and will probably lose a shooting match.

I feel this is the way Necrons have always been meant to be played. Since 5th edition, at least.
They are one of the few armies that have decent shooting and melee that can be fielding in the same list.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
... you'll have to combine CC with shooting, because I don't think we have enough variety to run a CC only list and will probably lose a shooting match.

I feel this is the way Necrons have always been meant to be played. Since 5th edition, at least.
They are one of the few armies that have decent shooting and melee that can be fielding in the same list.
-

I love that we seem to have kept that dual aspect, it was honestly my favorite part of 7th ed Necrons. I kinda miss being able to shrug off an entire armies worth of shooting with a squad of lychguard, but everyone has been dialed back from the absurd heights of 7th ed so I'm ok with the loss.

The Obelisk will be a huge boon for us when it gets to play. Drop it in for d3 mortal wounds on a 4+ on all those drones and crisis suits. Will it be worth it at 425 pts? Doubtful but there it is.

I did learn some things, with the tau getting 6" increase with the sect ability their going to out distance us. But I had a squad of 20 warriors dropped to 2 (autopass moral required) and thanks to cryptech and ghost ark got 17 back. Either way I wasn't getting within 12" so mephrit would not matter. And they have some nasty stuff with -1 to hit so tessla won't do much good either.

Destroyers however, those guys are going to kick major butt. And deathmasks are awesome as well, I used a small squad of them and they were very useful. Also deceiver was awesome.

 Galef wrote:

 Aza'Gorod wrote:
From what I've heard the big winners of the new tau sex were stealth suits, flying commanders and vespid. Not a tau player though so I can't comment too much I just know a guy who's hard-core tau

I think you meant SEPTS, not SEX. Although I can't be sure since you use the word "hard-core" in the same post.

Luckily Necrons, being automatons, do not have this issue

 Grimgold wrote:
... you'll have to combine CC with shooting, because I don't think we have enough variety to run a CC only list and will probably lose a shooting match.

I feel this is the way Necrons have always been meant to be played. Since 5th edition, at least.
They are one of the few armies that have decent shooting and melee that can be fielding in the same list.

-

Actually I meant dex (as in codex) lol, thanks autocorrect

Houston, we have ourselves an official 8th ed. Necron Codex:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmFMxBcPCe4

Staff of light is 10pts! w00t. I've watched a small chunk (~ 30 minutes) and have seen/heard NO differences between the real codex and the leaked beta codex.

Chronometron is still 15 pts, Conoptek cloak still 5 pts.

sure are alot of pictures of Necrons fighting ultramarines.

hirojlance wrote:
Houston, we have ourselves an official 8th ed. Necron Codex:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmFMxBcPCe4

Confirmed beta Dex pricing for Cryptek and his gear. I saw a few other tidbits and I'm inclined to think the leaked beta is accurate!

21:31 - four troops entries,

Deathmarks
Immortals
Lychguard
Necron Warriors

We thought it was just a printing error, but the fact it made it into the codex is notable.

They still have the elite icon though

Even the errors in the leak made it into final version, there can't have been many versions between the leak and the final product.

I'd err towards them being Elites. But that we see the same error helps reinforce the validity of the beta (lol final) codex. Nice!

Can't wait to see up close the other color scheme options. The blue glowy dudes especially.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Can't wait to see up close the other color scheme options. The blue glowy dudes especially.

Which dynasty is the 'blue glowy dudes' from? The only dynasty that doesn't really have many pics is Nephrekh. The 7th edition codex had Sautekh, Novokh and Nihilakh, while Mephrit was in Shield of Baal: Exterminatus.

Blue glowy dudes are Thokt. They're notable for being the "everyone kept their brains" dynasty. Their warriors can hold a conversation.

whelp, guess the leak is the final codex, we can start our tier list now.

I'd like to start by giving the obelisk an F, there is literally no reason to take it.

Destroyers are a hard A, their expensive but punch well above their points.

Heavy destroyers are B, Solid anti vehicle unit, but small unit size and a narrow target profile make them less awesome than destroyers.

Triarch Praetorians are a C, hurt by being expensive and not having a dynasty code. They would be lower but have some things going for them, 10" movement, they can fly, good ranged weapons and CC, immune to morale, and a solid max unit size.

Wraiths are a B, expensive but durable, good in CC, great at getting around screens, can't be tarpitted.

Scarabs are an A, we need screens and scrabs just happen to be great screens. They are fast, can blow up on enemies with a stratagem, and with the right dynasty code they could even have a bit of punch. Every list should have scarabs.

Lychguard are a C+, in the same boat as praetorians, except trade No dynasty for slow speed. Slow speed though we can work around, with dimensional corridor and a veil of darkness.

Flayed ones are a D, I wish they were just CC warriors, but they have some extra abilities that drive their cost up without really adding much to their bottom line. Rerolling wounds is nice, but it's a 4 str 1 damage swing with no AP. Deep strike is nice but a 9" charge is still hard to manage.

Yeah, the obelisk is a hard F. That's just silly. No reason to take it outside of pure "fun" games, and that's such an expensive models why would you not just make it a tesseract vault?

Sad GW is sad.

I'd definitely be hesitant to call Scarabs an A: Their damage output is terrible and the stratagem has too poor a return to even consider unless you're bleeding command points from every orifice and can afford to blow them on the equivalent of a single smite cast.

If they had a scout move/infiltrate they would be an A regardless due to good screen value as a 3 model unit for area denial, but since they don't all they're really good for is moving in the way of things and clogging shooty units with a charge.

The fact that the printing-error regarding Deathmarks/Lychguard being Troops in the summary and Elites on their datacards made it into the final print is ...extremely embarrassing.

changemod wrote:
I'd definitely be hesitant to call Scarabs an A: Their damage output is terrible and the stratagem has too poor a return to even consider unless you're bleeding command points from every orifice and can afford to blow them on the equivalent of a single smite cast.

If they had a scout move/infiltrate they would be an A regardless due to good screen value as a 3 model unit for area denial, but since they don't all they're really good for is moving in the way of things and clogging shooty units with a charge.

They are cheap, our cheapest screening unit, very fast, and can fly now. They can keep up with nearly every other unit worth screening.
With fly, they can even threat flyers in cc, and now can jump over every terrain/enemys screening units if needed. I would still give them an A.

Edit:
Tactic suggestion: run through screening units and charge tanks behind them. Because why not.

changemod wrote:
I'd definitely be hesitant to call Scarabs an A: Their damage output is terrible and the stratagem has too poor a return to even consider unless you're bleeding command points from every orifice and can afford to blow them on the equivalent of a single smite cast.

If they had a scout move/infiltrate they would be an A regardless due to good screen value as a 3 model unit for area denial, but since they don't all they're really good for is moving in the way of things and clogging shooty units with a charge.

Not everything has to do rockstar damage, and since they are quite literally the only screening unit we have they will be in every competitive list. Beyond the fact they are more or less required, they have a 10" movement (which is exceptional for screening units), 3 wounds per base (so a little more than 4 points per wound), 4 attacks per base, and always wound on fives. The mortal wounds thing is a bonus, you shouldn't be spamming it, and it makes our screens unique, and dangerous. The thing is you get to choose who they blow up on, so it's better than smite and hell fire shells, and aside from an occasional gotcha will mostly serve to discourage ICs from getting near your screens. That cold star commander suit now has to worry about your screens since they can chunk him.

To sum it up, they are required, they are good at their job, and they have some uniquely necron aspects to them. They aren't glamourous like destroyers, but the job they do is necessary, and they really should be in every list.

 Grimgold wrote:

changemod wrote:
I'd definitely be hesitant to call Scarabs an A: Their damage output is terrible and the stratagem has too poor a return to even consider unless you're bleeding command points from every orifice and can afford to blow them on the equivalent of a single smite cast.

If they had a scout move/infiltrate they would be an A regardless due to good screen value as a 3 model unit for area denial, but since they don't all they're really good for is moving in the way of things and clogging shooty units with a charge.

Not everything has to do rockstar damage, and since they are quite literally the only screening unit we have they will be in every competitive list. Beyond the fact they are more or less required, they have a 10" movement (which is exceptional for screening units), 3 wounds per base (so a little more than 4 points per wound), 4 attacks per base, and always wound on fives. The mortal wounds thing is a bonus, you shouldn't be spamming it, and it makes our screens unique, and dangerous. The thing is you get to choose who they blow up on, so it's better than smite and hell fire shells, and aside from an occasional gotcha will mostly serve to discourage ICs from getting near your screens. That cold star commander suit now has to worry about your screens since they can chunk him.

To sum it up, they are required, they are good at their job, and they have some uniquely necron aspects to them. They aren't glamourous like destroyers, but the job they do is necessary, and they really should be in every list.

As a screening unit, they also have a wider base, which is helpful.

So Tomb Blades. A? The native -1 to hit certainly helps against plasma.

Scarab have main problem in multi wound profile. With silver tide and qs spam list we dont have a good target for multi d wepons. For such list we need GEQ like screen but we havent. Sometimes warriors can be better screen unit. We take them in every list but becouse we dont have alternative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
So Tomb Blades. A? The native -1 to hit certainly helps against plasma.

A-? Lack of infrantry keyword.

Kuguar6 wrote:
Scarab have main problem in multi wound profile. With silver tide and qs spam list we dont have a good target for multi d wepons. For such list we need GEQ like screen but we havent. Sometimes warriors can be better screen unit. We take them in every list but becouse we dont have alternative.

You're not seriously suggesting scarabs are bad because the enemy might shoot lascannons, are you?

I was going to say Obelisk is ok against tau, then i realised they'll just ram a commander into with coldstar and fusion blasters

Biggest problem with flayed ones is their weapon. Why the hell do their claws have no AP? Being necrons I would expect them to be a base ap-2. If their weapons could get through ANY armor their usefulness would sky rocket.

Well, with the beta codex confirmed at this point, it looks like we have to take the good and the bad.

Overall Army Impressions

The Good:
Dynasty codes- These are among the best in the game, with no real duds. I don't like the Nihilakh one that much, but the codes are good.

Warlord Traits- Some clear winners and losers here. The losers aren't bad, but it's really hard to compete with ones like Hyperlogic Strategy, which is amazing. I feel like we will see This warlord trait the most. The ability to gain command points is going to be huge...

Stratagems- These are also among the best in the game. Most of them are cheap at 1 CP, and with Hyperlogic strategy, it is very likely we will get 10-12 CP a game depending on the number of detachments. I think good Stratagem management will be key to successfully piloting the codex. I don't really see that many duds here, most of them are either very good, or good.

Destroyers- Weapon improvement, stratagems and cost decrease made these guys one of the best units we have.

Not so good:
RP stayed the same. This could make our break our army. This really should have been the number one issue addressed, and the fact that they failed to is very disappointing.
Some high points costs one one use items like Res Orbs. This should have been changed when RP was changed.
We still have quite a few useless units. Lychguard, Triach Praetorians, Stalkers, Flayed ones continue to suffer. Lychguard really needed a steeper point drop. Triarch units don't benefit from Dynasty Codes which hurt them quite a bit. If their points had been dropped enough to make up for it, it would have been ok.

Overall, we will need to see how the units that improved and the stratagems are enough to make up for the fact that RP stayed the same.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Kuguar6 wrote:
Scarab have main problem in multi wound profile. With silver tide and qs spam list we dont have a good target for multi d wepons. For such list we need GEQ like screen but we havent. Sometimes warriors can be better screen unit. We take them in every list but becouse we dont have alternative.

You're not seriously suggesting scarabs are bad because the enemy might shoot lascannons, are you?

more like destroyer profile: 6S -1AP d3D

Kuguar6 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Kuguar6 wrote:
Scarab have main problem in multi wound profile. With silver tide and qs spam list we dont have a good target for multi d wepons. For such list we need GEQ like screen but we havent. Sometimes warriors can be better screen unit. We take them in every list but becouse we dont have alternative.

You're not seriously suggesting scarabs are bad because the enemy might shoot lascannons, are you?

more like destroyer profile: 6S -1AP d3D

I only take scarabs to deny smite and to surprise enemy shooting that gets too close to my army. There small size means they're often overlooked.
With the new stratagem letting you roll RP for them they could make a surprise come back if reduced to 1 model and your opponent leaves them

What does everyone think the order of best to worst is for Lychguard and Praetorians?

Lych Warscythes
Lych Hyperphase Sword & Shield
Praet Rod of Covenant
Praet Void Blade & Particle Caster

I hadn’t started to look at them using the index yet and then the Codex was coming so thought it was worth waiting.
What are people thinking based on the leaks?

I know there seems to be talk of them not being very good overall, but if you were ordering them by use what would you go with?

Cheers!

 Grimgold wrote:
whelp, guess the leak is the final codex, we can start our tier list now.

I'd like to start by giving the obelisk an F, there is literally no reason to take it.

Destroyers are a hard A, their expensive but punch well above their points.

Heavy destroyers are B, Solid anti vehicle unit, but small unit size and a narrow target profile make them less awesome than destroyers.

Triarch Praetorians are a C, hurt by being expensive and not having a dynasty code. They would be lower but have some things going for them, 10" movement, they can fly, good ranged weapons and CC, immune to morale, and a solid max unit size.

Wraiths are a B, expensive but durable, good in CC, great at getting around screens, can't be tarpitted.

Scarabs are an A, we need screens and scrabs just happen to be great screens. They are fast, can blow up on enemies with a stratagem, and with the right dynasty code they could even have a bit of punch. Every list should have scarabs.

Lychguard are a C+, in the same boat as praetorians, except trade No dynasty for slow speed. Slow speed though we can work around, with dimensional corridor and a veil of darkness.

Flayed ones are a D, I wish they were just CC warriors, but they have some extra abilities that drive their cost up without really adding much to their bottom line. Rerolling wounds is nice, but it's a 4 str 1 damage swing with no AP. Deep strike is nice but a 9" charge is still hard to manage.

For what it's worth, I think the above are spot on. Is it worthwhile applying a few permutations to some of the other entries; which change dramatically depending on Dynasty?

This arose because I was about to add to this list and started alphabetically: Annihilation Barges probably range from B- to C depending on (a) if Gauss Cannon with Sautekh / Tesla with Mephrit and played aggressively versus (b) anything else where their lack of AP and non-optimal Strength 7 leave them over-costed for the meta.

There are other examples as well, I reckon.

Hmm,
I want to love Deathmarks, but it looks like they're going to need help to be worth taking.

Their guns do MW on a wound roll of 6.
Lords aura ability allows wound rolls of 1 to be rerolled.
How much more effective would that make them?
Would it be worth Veiling in a Lord (+Gauss Immortals?) with a unit or two of Hunters-from-Hyperspace-ing (HfH) Deathmarks?
If they were all from Mephrit, that might be a pretty nasty little surprise, no?
Granted, this is just a ridiculous exercise in seeing how a combo might work, but if I've done this correctly, with just the two units of Deathmarks rerolling 1s to wound it looks like they can pull off a lot of damage against a character with T5 2+ 3++ all by themselves.

(this is without the Lord or Immortals contributing, too).

wow thats actually not too shabby.

PS: whats that tool that you used?

You can't have the veil and the solar staff on the same model. The limit is 1 relic per charecter.

Deathmasks I find are simply great counter units that have additional value by being a threat. I had a tau ghostkeel drop in with stealth drones, the deathmasks dropped in and popped one of the drones so right from that point the ghostkeel was only at -2 to hit. It's more the threat of what they could do as much as what they can do. Also if your opponent tries to drop in and get closest to a chr they can drop in and act like a screen. Or if they drop in to charge they again can be a "drop in screen". Their value is more than their ability to damage.

So I am probably right in assuming that everyone believes lychguard and deathmarks will go back to being elites as soon as GW release an FAQ?

But lets just say that isnt a typo and they are now troops, would that make them much better than they are currently? or would tesla immortals still always be the go to troop choice?

They are not Troops; their unit entries have the correct FOC markings, they're only listed under Troops in the points section in the back. Should people want to use that to put them in Troop slots, you can ask them why their Codex has no HQs, as the back of the book lists "Characters," and not HQs.

Yeah lychguard and deathmarks as troops seems an odd choice, if any of the elites got moved over I think it would be flayed ones.

 Grimgold wrote:
Yeah lychguard and deathmarks as troops seems an odd choice, if any of the elites got moved over I think it would be flayed ones.

If flayed ones became troops (and plastic) that would be nice for CC armies

Drakmord wrote:
They are not Troops; their unit entries have the correct FOC markings, they're only listed under Troops in the points section in the back. Should people want to use that to put them in Troop slots, you can ask them why their Codex has no HQs, as the back of the book lists "Characters," and not HQs.

While I agree the troop listing is the mistake, they aren't even listed anywhere as elites, they just have the elite icon in 1 place, so either interpretation is really valid - they have 1 listing as troops and 1 image as elites, 1 right entry and 1 wrong either way round.

zacharia wrote:

Drakmord wrote:
They are not Troops; their unit entries have the correct FOC markings, they're only listed under Troops in the points section in the back. Should people want to use that to put them in Troop slots, you can ask them why their Codex has no HQs, as the back of the book lists "Characters," and not HQs.

While I agree the troop listing is the mistake, they aren't even listed anywhere as elites, they just have the elite icon in 1 place, so either interpretation is really valid - they have 1 listing as troops and 1 image as elites, 1 right entry and 1 wrong either way round.

The BRB is clear that a unit's Battlefield Role is the icon appearing on its datasheet. There's no indication that the categories in the point listings have any rules meaning.

Azuza001 wrote:
You can't have the veil and the solar staff on the same model. The limit is 1 relic per charecter.

Ah, yes, true that.
Okay, edited to omit any mention of Solar Staff.

So 10 Deathmarks that reroll 1s to wound are typically seeing 4.3 wounds against a character after saves (T5, 2+, 3++).
If you could somehow get them +1 to hit (MWBD / Methodical Destruction) that would bump them up to 5.4 wounds against that same character per 10 Deathmarks.
Decent?

_Ness wrote:
whats that tool that you used?

http://www.dice-hammer.com

zacharia wrote:

Drakmord wrote:
They are not Troops; their unit entries have the correct FOC markings, they're only listed under Troops in the points section in the back. Should people want to use that to put them in Troop slots, you can ask them why their Codex has no HQs, as the back of the book lists "Characters," and not HQs.

While I agree the troop listing is the mistake, they aren't even listed anywhere as elites, they just have the elite icon in 1 place, so either interpretation is really valid - they have 1 listing as troops and 1 image as elites, 1 right entry and 1 wrong either way round.

Page 174 of the main rulebook says that the icon on the datasheet determines the unit's battlefield role. Where can I find a rule that says that I use the points value tables to determine a model's battlefield role?

 Ghaz wrote:

zacharia wrote:

Drakmord wrote:
They are not Troops; their unit entries have the correct FOC markings, they're only listed under Troops in the points section in the back. Should people want to use that to put them in Troop slots, you can ask them why their Codex has no HQs, as the back of the book lists "Characters," and not HQs.

While I agree the troop listing is the mistake, they aren't even listed anywhere as elites, they just have the elite icon in 1 place, so either interpretation is really valid - they have 1 listing as troops and 1 image as elites, 1 right entry and 1 wrong either way round.

Page 174 of the main rulebook says that the icon on the datasheet determines the unit's battlefield role. Where can I find a rule that says that I use the points value tables to determine a model's battlefield role?

As I said I agree that it is the listing that is incorrect, but the fact the brb says the icon is what is important, the fact remains that in the necron codex the mistake could BE the icon.

There is one instance of the icon and 1 instance of the listing as troops. No matter what the brb says it would be one error (incorrect icon) for them to be troops the same as it would be 1 error (incorrect listing) for them to be elite. Either way round there are only 2 entires, 1 correct 1 incorrect, who is to say which is correct?

 skoffs wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
You can't have the veil and the solar staff on the same model. The limit is 1 relic per charecter.

Ah, yes, true that.
Okay, edited to omit any mention of Solar Staff.

So 10 Deathmarks that reroll 1s to wound are typically seeing 4.3 wounds against a character after saves (T5, 2+, 3++).
If you could somehow get them +1 to hit (MWBD / Methodical Destruction) that would bump them up to 5.4 wounds against that same character per 10 Deathmarks.
Decent?

_Ness wrote:
whats that tool that you used?

http://www.dice-hammer.com

That's theoretically not too shabby. A Veil Lord with the Deathmarks in reserve ready to rock would seem like a nice little Vanguard detachment like I wanted to do, but I didn't think they'd be THAT effective against a Custodes character. Did you do the math on a Marine character or Death Guard character?

What you said was either interpretation is valid (i.e., they could be either Elites or Troops). It's not. Right now, as the codex is written they can only be Elites, as the symbol on the dataslate is the only thing used to determine a unit's battlefield role. As this is off topic for this thread, if you wish to continue you can start a thread in YMDC.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
So 10 Deathmarks that reroll 1s to wound are typically seeing 4.3 wounds against a character after saves (T5, 2+, 3++).
If you could somehow get them +1 to hit (MWBD / Methodical Destruction) that would bump them up to 5.4 wounds against that same character per 10 Deathmarks.

That's theoretically not too shabby. A Veil Lord with the Deathmarks in reserve ready to rock would seem like a nice little Vanguard detachment like I wanted to do, but I didn't think they'd be THAT effective against a Custodes character. Did you do the math on a Marine character or Death Guard character?

Just against a generic T5 2+ 3++ statline.
If you want to try running the numbers on a more specific enemy give it a go here-
http://www.dice-hammer.com

 Ghaz wrote:
What you said was either interpretation is valid (i.e., they could be either Elites or Troops). It's not. Right now, as the codex is written they can only be Elites, as the symbol on the dataslate is the only thing used to determine a unit's battlefield role. As this is off topic for this thread, if you wish to continue you can start a thread in YMDC.

What I said was either has as much chance as being the error, which is true, 1 icon that could be the mistake is the same likelihood as 1 listing of troop could be the mistake.

I didn't say anything about the interpretation being more likely, in fact I agreed on interpretation.

No need to start a thread as I'm not arguing the interpretation, just made the idle comment that two items one correct and one incorrect, either could be the single mistake. I don't know why that is so hard to understand or is so worth arguing the incprrect point. Last post on the matter, wish I didn't bother in the first place, geesh.

I really dislike the more expensive Wraiths, and I don't see where they fit while Scarabs exist.

Scarabs are more tanky per point (against everything but S4 and only slightly worse there), do more damage per point, act as a better screen, and are cheap enough to hold backline objectives. Now that scarabs have fly, the only thing that wraiths have on them is an extra 2" of movement.

I can't imagine any time where I've got 165-330 points free for a squad of wraiths, where I wouldn't want 4x as many scarabs instead.

So I had a thought - what about Novokh and silver tide?
Think about it -

You have a big blob of warriors
You fire at short range, so double shots
You then charge. You get rerolls due to the Dynasty Code.
You then activate the Novokh stratagem where a squad can attack twice. And the rerolls still count.

That is a lot of damage coming from a single unit in a single turn.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So I had a thought - what about Novokh and silver tide?
Think about it -

You have a big blob of warriors
You fire at short range, so double shots
You then charge. You get rerolls due to the Dynasty Code.
You then activate the Novokh stratagem where a squad can attack twice. And the rerolls still count.

That is a lot of damage coming from a single unit in a single turn.

Take Anrakyr for double atack. Its walid tackic but in moste case its better to wait for opponent charge. Then you got overwatch, character heroic intervention and 2A warriors blob. With lord aura look almoste like FO.

So I'm thinking about putting together a Sautekh List for a few 1750 pt Tournaments. Trying to make something work that uses a Battalion.

Kuguar6 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So I had a thought - what about Novokh and silver tide?
Think about it -

You have a big blob of warriors
You fire at short range, so double shots
You then charge. You get rerolls due to the Dynasty Code.
You then activate the Novokh stratagem where a squad can attack twice. And the rerolls still count.

That is a lot of damage coming from a single unit in a single turn.

Take Anrakyr for double atack. Its walid tackic but in moste case its better to wait for opponent charge. Then you got overwatch, character heroic intervention and 2A warriors blob. With lord aura look almoste like FO.

How is it better to wait for the opponent to charge? If fire and charge in your turn, you don't lost accuracy and you will probably be at full strength. If you want to be charged, then you won't as much and the enemy will probably shoot you first with full accuracy. Heroic intervention is pointless, as you can just charge with the character, and at long distances too.

Xachariah wrote:
I really dislike the more expensive Wraiths, and I don't see where they fit while Scarabs exist.

Scarabs are more tanky per point (against everything but S4 and only slightly worse there), do more damage per point, act as a better screen, and are cheap enough to hold backline objectives. Now that scarabs have fly, the only thing that wraiths have on them is an extra 2" of movement.

I can't imagine any time where I've got 165-330 points free for a squad of wraiths, where I wouldn't want 4x as many scarabs instead.

I'd be interested to know the damage calculations against geq meq and tea. Roughly 1 wraith = 4 scarabs in point cost so it wouldn't be too hard to compare them, especially against models with 2 wounds such as primaris

 Aza'Gorod wrote:
I'd be interested to know the damage calculations against geq meq and tea. Roughly 1 wraith = 4 scarabs in point cost so it wouldn't be too hard to compare them, especially against models with 2 wounds such as primaris

Well, you could try running the numbers here-

http://www.dice-hammer.com

I only wish there was a mathhammer tool that you could plug unit names into to compare (like BattleScribe, but for statistical analysis).

 skoffs wrote:

 Aza'Gorod wrote:
I'd be interested to know the damage calculations against geq meq and tea. Roughly 1 wraith = 4 scarabs in point cost so it wouldn't be too hard to compare them, especially against models with 2 wounds such as primaris

Well, you could try running the numbers here-

http://www.dice-hammer.com

I only wish there was a mathhammer tool that you could plug unit names into to compare (like BattleScribe, but for statistical analysis).

That's very handy thank you

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Spoiler:

Kuguar6 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So I had a thought - what about Novokh and silver tide?
Think about it -

You have a big blob of warriors
You fire at short range, so double shots
You then charge. You get rerolls due to the Dynasty Code.
You then activate the Novokh stratagem where a squad can attack twice. And the rerolls still count.

That is a lot of damage coming from a single unit in a single turn.

Take Anrakyr for double atack. Its walid tackic but in moste case its better to wait for opponent charge. Then you got overwatch, character heroic intervention and 2A warriors blob. With lord aura look almoste like FO.

How is it better to wait for the opponent to charge? If fire and charge in your turn, you don't lost accuracy and you will probably be at full strength. If you want to be charged, then you won't as much and the enemy will probably shoot you first with full accuracy. Heroic intervention is pointless, as you can just charge with the character, and at long distances too.

Overwatch was quite strong from rf and tessla. When you charge you stretch the tide lose hq buff and isolate some unit. Also in 8 rules meel fight dont protect your unit very much from shooting because of flatout posibility. After charge you are close to enemy, without buff and your unit are posibly die next turn.
On the other side counter atack give you posibility to kill charger unit in they turn and move on with shooting in the next one.

 Aza'Gorod wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 Aza'Gorod wrote:
I'd be interested to know the damage calculations against geq meq and tea. Roughly 1 wraith = 4 scarabs in point cost so it wouldn't be too hard to compare them, especially against models with 2 wounds such as primaris

Well, you could try running the numbers here-

http://www.dice-hammer.com

I only wish there was a mathhammer tool that you could plug unit names into to compare (like BattleScribe, but for statistical analysis).

That's very handy thank you

Well unless I'm doing it wrong the only time scarabs outperform wraiths is when fighting models equivalent to themselves ironically, so ones with T3 and a 6+ armour save. Of course wraiths need to fight multi wound models to be better then scarabs so I think against any models with 2W wraiths are definitely superior. The major drop of is at T5 and armour 4+, but scarabs wound anything on 5+ so chart isn't completely accurate. I'd say scarabs are better against armies with low armour save as even with high number of attacks they still bounce off armour

I gave it a try, myself, using close equivalent points value (not entirely sure if I'm using this tool properly for melee, but here we go):

Results for 4 Scarabs-
Results for 1 Wraith-

Take from that what you will.

Scarabs are surprisingly effective it looks to be. With Novokh they'd be doing pretty darn good!

Seems with Wraiths you do need to take into account the D2 claws. Against things like Tyranid Warriors and Custodes that totally matters.

Did FW give Maynarkh their own Dynastic Code in either the Xenos Index or in a FAQ?

 zend wrote:
Did FW give Maynarkh their own Dynastic Code in either the Xenos Index or in a FAQ?

Nope, so an FAQ will likely tell us to choose one or Novokh. The latter just makes plain sense.

Ok thanks, I was just curious.

 Aza'Gorod wrote:
Well unless I'm doing it wrong the only time scarabs outperform wraiths is when fighting models equivalent to themselves ironically, so ones with T3 and a 6+ armour save. Of course wraiths need to fight multi wound models to be better then scarabs so I think against any models with 2W wraiths are definitely superior. The major drop of is at T5 and armour 4+, but scarabs wound anything on 5+ so chart isn't completely accurate. I'd say scarabs are better against armies with low armour save as even with high number of attacks they still bounce off armour

 skoffs wrote:
I gave it a try, myself, using close equivalent points value (not entirely sure if I'm using this tool properly for melee, but here we go):
Results for 4 Scarabs-

Spoiler:

Results for 1 Wraith-

Spoiler:

Take from that what you will.

Thank you guys for looking into it and running numbers. It appears that the answer is I'm dumb. I'm using a custom script I'm writing for mathhammer, and I'd updated Wraith point costs to match the leaked codex, but not their weapon profile. So, my wraiths were incorrectly turning out pretty trash.

I'm rerunning my numbers now, and while they still seem worse at MEQ/GEQ and anything T7+, they're overall a LOT better now.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, those numbers are calculated with the wraiths at AP -1, and they are AP -2 now.

I'm a little behind on this thread, but have we talked about how all this Advance stuff and Tesla weapons is actually poop since it prevents them from getting 3 hits?

I am thinking of collecting Necrons as my second army(the first army being iron Hands), but one thing bugs me.
I usually play against Craftworld Aeldari and Tyranids. Both factions can bring large number of psykers.
Aeldari list typically has 1~2 Farseers, 2~3 hemlock wraithfighters and a couple of warlocks.
Tyranids roster has multiple zoanthropes and hive tyrants.

As far as I know, Canoptek Spyder's doomgloom and one of the warlord traits are the only options to stop psychic powers.
While Smite can only be manifested on closest enemy unit, either aeldari and tyranid psykers have plenty of mobility to focus smite on targets they want.
Because Reanimation Protocol works only if there are remaining models in a unit, I think massed smite can render the Reanimation Protocol useless.
Is there a way to mitigate the damage suffered from multiple, mobile psykers?

Smite spamming might be toned down if the "Beta Rules" announced by GW last year makes it into official matched play rules.
But until then, I have no idea.

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
I am thinking of collecting Necrons as my second army(the first army being iron Hands), but one thing bugs me.
I usually play against Craftworld Aeldari and Tyranids. Both factions can bring large number of psykers.
Aeldari list typically has 1~2 Farseers, 2~3 hemlock wraithfighters and a couple of warlocks.
Tyranids roster has multiple zoanthropes and hive tyrants.

As far as I know, Canoptek Spyder's doomgloom and one of the warlord traits are the only options to stop psychic powers.
While Smite can only be manifested on closest enemy unit, either aeldari and tyranid psykers have plenty of mobility to focus smite on targets they want.
Because Reanimation Protocol works only if there are remaining models in a unit, I think massed smite can render the Reanimation Protocol useless.
Is there a way to mitigate the damage suffered from multiple, mobile psykers?

Smite spamming might be toned down if the "Beta Rules" announced by GW last year makes it into official matched play rules.
But until then, I have no idea.

The best way to stop smite spam? KILL THAT WITCH. lol.
But really, it is the only way for Necron to handle smite spam.....

I think you might want to have some Deathmarks in your army, snipe those Eldar Farseers, Warlocks or Nidz Neuothropes, for the rest psykers in Nidz army (Hive Tyrant and Zoanthropes), just shoot them to death with anything that can dish out a ton of shots.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I'm a little behind on this thread, but have we talked about how all this Advance stuff and Tesla weapons is actually poop since it prevents them from getting 3 hits?

Right, I don't think Tesla would be a good choice for Sautekh Immortals, since you don't benefit from the rule. Gauss Blasters would be better in that case.


EDIT:

While not much on forgeworld has been discussed, the Sautekh Dynasty really Improves Tomb Sentinels due to the Exile cannon being heavy, as well as the Tessreact Ark Heavy D6 weapon.

 Sasori wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I'm a little behind on this thread, but have we talked about how all this Advance stuff and Tesla weapons is actually poop since it prevents them from getting 3 hits?

Right, I don't think Tesla would be a good choice for Sautekh Immortals, since you don't benefit from the rule. Gauss Blasters would be better in that case.


EDIT:

While not much on forgeworld has been discussed, the Sautekh Dynasty really Improves Tomb Sentinels due to the Exile cannon being heavy, as well as the Tessreact Ark Heavy D6 weapon.

Aye, but the point decrease on the DDA renders the TA a mite overcosted.

 Sasori wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I'm a little behind on this thread, but have we talked about how all this Advance stuff and Tesla weapons is actually poop since it prevents them from getting 3 hits?

Right, I don't think Tesla would be a good choice for Sautekh Immortals, since you don't benefit from the rule. Gauss Blasters would be better in that case.

Gauss immortals would not be able to shoot after advancing, so much more annoying on top. Another example how good GW undestands their own rules, suggesting tesla immortals for this.
Nearly all of our assault weapons are tesla, or mounted on units beeing more cc oriented and not able to charge afterwards.
In the case of wraiths it doesnt matter any way. So whats left?

Edit:
Can be usefull for positioning and objective grabbing, but else?

sieGermans wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I'm a little behind on this thread, but have we talked about how all this Advance stuff and Tesla weapons is actually poop since it prevents them from getting 3 hits?

Right, I don't think Tesla would be a good choice for Sautekh Immortals, since you don't benefit from the rule. Gauss Blasters would be better in that case.


EDIT:

While not much on forgeworld has been discussed, the Sautekh Dynasty really Improves Tomb Sentinels due to the Exile cannon being heavy, as well as the Tessreact Ark Heavy D6 weapon.

Aye, but the point decrease on the DDA renders the TA a mite overcosted.

This is quite true. the TA should probably see at least a 30 point drop at this point.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Unless I'm reading it wrong, those numbers are calculated with the wraiths at AP -1, and they are AP -2 now.

Ah, no, you are correct.
Here's the updated spread (hope I got them right this time)-

So yeah, after looking at the results, it appears Scarabs are good against T3-T4, and Wraiths are good against T4-T6, but for T7 and up it swings back to Scarabs.
Also, the worse the saves the better Scarabs out perform Wraiths.

Conclusion: it would seem they both do in fact have roles in our armies.

 DaBraken wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I'm a little behind on this thread, but have we talked about how all this Advance stuff and Tesla weapons is actually poop since it prevents them from getting 3 hits?

Right, I don't think Tesla would be a good choice for Sautekh Immortals, since you don't benefit from the rule. Gauss Blasters would be better in that case.

Gauss immortals would not be able to shoot after advancing, so much more annoying on top. Another example how good GW undestands their own rules, suggesting tesla immortals for this.
Nearly all of our assault weapons are tesla, or mounted on units beeing more cc oriented and not able to charge afterwards.
In the case of wraiths it doesnt matter any way. So whats left?

Edit:
Can be usefull for positioning and objective grabbing, but else?

Isn't sautekh the dynasty that lets you advance and fire weapons as assault? So gauss blasters become assault 1?

I do agree it's not really worth it though as your trading an extra d6 of movement for 1 shot so it's only use is to reposition the immortals quickly before they get into rapidfire range . It's more worth it for doom scythes (as you could move up to 80inch and shoot normally) and necron wraiths ( who could fire exile rays as assault d3 and using a stratagem charge afterwards)

I think it might be a good idea to compile a list of what things want to be from what Dynasty and why.
Eg.

Gauss Immortals (Mephrit, for AP-1 code./Sautekh, for advance and shoot code)
Tesla Immortals (Mephrit, for AP-1 code)
Warriors (?)
Ghost A. (?)

Gauss Tomb Blades (?)
Tesla Tomb Blades (Mephrit, for Talent.f.A strat and AP-1 code)
Destroyers (Nephrekh, for Translo.C strat)
Scarabs (Nephrekh, for 6" advance code)
Wraiths (Novokh, for reroll hits code and Blood.R strat)
*Acanthrites (?)
*To. Sentinel (Sautekh, for all weapons are assault+no heavy penalty for moving)

Deathmarks (Sautekh, for Meth.D strat./Mephrit, for AP-1 code)
Flayed Ones (Novokh, for reroll hits code./Nephrekh, for 6" advance code)
Lychguard (Novokh, for reroll hits code and Blood.R strat./Nephrekh, for 6" advance code)
Praetorians (N/A)
Tr. Stalker (N/A)
Deceiver (N/A)
Night B. (N/A)
*To. Stalker (?)

Spyder (?)
H. Destroyers (?)
A. Barge (Mephrit, for AP-1 code./Nihilakh, for reroll 1s if didn't move code)
Doomsday A. (Nihilakh, for reroll 1s if didn't move code)
Monolith (?)
T. C'tan (N/A)
*Tess. Ark (?)
*S. Pylon (Nihilakh, for reroll 1s if didn't move code)

Doom S. (Sautekh, for all weapons are assault+no heavy penalty for moving)
Night S. (?)
*Shroud (?)

Obelisk (?)
T. Vault (Mephrit, for Talent.f.A strat and AP-1 code) [can the vault even use codes???]
*G. Pylon (Nihilakh, for reroll 1s if didn't move code)

* = FW

From the top of my head;

Tesseract Vault (Nihilakh, to get +1 save from reclaim lost relic strat. Mephrit, for -1 AP code).

Anni-barge (Mephrit, -1 AP code).

DDA (Sautekh, ignore -1 for moving with heavy weapon if moved, can hit on 2+ using Sautekh Stratgem. Nihilakh, re-roll 1s to hit if not moved. Mephrit, -2 AP on the Gauss Arrays).

Scytheguard (Sautekh, To use Orikan. Novokh, re-rolling hit rolls, fight twice using Strat).

Sword n' board (Nihilakh, Stratagem for +1 save and attack, Nephreak, Advancing 6-7"s, ignore terrain and enemy models).

Tomb Blades (Sautekh, +1 strat. Mephrit, -1 AP code. Nephreak, 6" advance, ignore terrain and models).

Warriors (Sautekh, rapid fire become assault when advance, +1 strata. Mephrit, -1 AP code. Novokh, Kamikaze warriors, Nihilakh, re-rolling 1s to hit).

CCB (I think it has a use for all Dynasties)

The Sautekh dynasty code is neither here nor there. It's about the Sautekh characters, relic, stratagem and warlord trait, which are all top tier.

Scarabs (Novokh, for reroll hits code), because of beeing fly, nephrek does little to them
Doomsday Ark (Nihilakh, for reroll 1 to hit while stationary/Sautekh, for all assault while advance and aggressive mobility)

 Aza'Gorod wrote:

 DaBraken wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I'm a little behind on this thread, but have we talked about how all this Advance stuff and Tesla weapons is actually poop since it prevents them from getting 3 hits?

Right, I don't think Tesla would be a good choice for Sautekh Immortals, since you don't benefit from the rule. Gauss Blasters would be better in that case.

Gauss immortals would not be able to shoot after advancing, so much more annoying on top. Another example how good GW undestands their own rules, suggesting tesla immortals for this.
Nearly all of our assault weapons are tesla, or mounted on units beeing more cc oriented and not able to charge afterwards.
In the case of wraiths it doesnt matter any way. So whats left?

Edit:
Can be usefull for positioning and objective grabbing, but else?

Isn't sautekh the dynasty that lets you advance and fire weapons as assault? So gauss blasters become assault 1?

I do agree it's not really worth it though as your trading an extra d6 of movement for 1 shot so it's only use is to reposition the immortals quickly before they get into rapidfire range . It's more worth it for doom scythes (as you could move up to 80inch and shoot normally) and necron wraiths ( who could fire exile rays as assault d3 and using a stratagem charge afterwards)

Keep in mind it only changes the weapon type if you do advance, if you don't advance it still stays the same.I will agree that the bonus to heavy weapons is the main benefit (And hyperlogic strategy) but the extra flexibility is nice.

What are your guys thoughts on dedicated AT, like either 2 sautekh tess arks or a nihilak gauss pylon?

Either? Why would you limit yourself on expensive FW units +rules that require high points value games, when you can get a D.Ark and Heavy Destroyers for a lot cheaper and not require LoW slots?

Any thoughts about the tombstalker?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Either? Why would you limit yourself on expensive FW units +rules that require high points value games, when you can get a D.Ark and Heavy Destroyers for a lot cheaper and not require LoW slots?

For 1 TA you get 1 DDA + 1 Heavy Destroyer, but requiring 2 heavy support slots vs 1.
The pylon is good if you expect titans or similar, but you can only shoot on one target per turn. I would rather stick with more DDA instead I guess, getting 2 DDA and 2 Heavy Destroyers for one Pylon.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

_Ness wrote:
Any thoughts about the tombstalker?

Rather take the sentinel for 15 points more. The slicers are meh in my oppinion. The exile cannon is much stronger and the 2A from the stalker dont balance this out.

 DaBraken wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Either? Why would you limit yourself on expensive FW units +rules that require high points value games, when you can get a D.Ark and Heavy Destroyers for a lot cheaper and not require LoW slots?

For 1 TA you get 1 DDA + 1 Heavy Destroyer, but requiring 2 heavy support slots vs 1.
The pylon is good if you expect titans or similar, but you can only shoot on one target per turn. I would rather stick with more DDA instead I guess, getting 2 DDA and 2 Heavy Destroyers for one Pylon.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

_Ness wrote:
Any thoughts about the tombstalker?

Rather take the sentinel for 15 points more. The slicers are meh in my oppinion. The exile cannon is much stronger and the 2A from the stalker dont balance this out.

I mean, number of slots really isn't that big of a deal anymore, with detachments. If anything you want to fill more detachments for more CPs.

I agree that the sentinel is much better for 15 points more if you are taking it as Sautekh. With Phase tunneling you can position yourself to (hopefully) do some serious damage with the exile cannon. The Tomb Stalker really needs more punch in melee. Comparing it to a Trygon, and we can see that it is just too weak for it's cost right now.

Now that we are talking about FW units. Is FW going to update them or is it GW that is doing it?
And what do you think about the upcoming FAQ. Anything for Necrons there that didnt make it into the codex?
A friend of mine noticed different points for his skitarii from the forgebane box. The question know: Is this for the forgebane box „balance“ or a foreshadowing of the FAQ (I admit i dont think so).

I’m still wondering everyone’s thoughts on getting the best out of Praetorians and Lychguard.
What set up is the one you’d use if you had to.
Which would you avoid for good.

Lych Warscythes
Lych Hyperphase Sword & Shield
Praet Rod of Covenant
Praet Void Blade & Particle Caster

I’ve got multiple boxes so it seems a waste to not build up anything, even if it doesn’t get used much..

Speaking of FW...

I know Kutlakh is a neat dude, and most of us are gonna make him function like Novokh as it fits the theme. However, what if it isn't the best choice?

Enter Nephrekh. While it fits the theme not at all, it makes for an interesting army composition. He is allowing all to advance and charge. Let's make that advance an automatic 6".

This makes for a fairly frightening and quick army getting in close. Tesla Immortals aren't even impressive on the charge, but that speed means they can bully something too.

Isn't Kutlakh already the overlord of a dynasty? I don't think you can give him another code.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Isn't Kutlakh already the overlord of a dynasty? I don't think you can give him another code.

The code itself has no rules and FW said for other armies to pick the tactic most fitting for the army. Maynarkh is gonna get the same treatment to help save FW time, and seeing as we have freedom until that point I'm spitballing this idea as it came to me over a foofoo coffee beverage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So basically no specific Warlord Trait or relic, but the code rule itself is...gold.

After having a few test games so far, I've come up with this list to try and max out the best units i find in the codex while being able to hold onto objectives where possible.

Main idea is to deep strike both destroyer units (ideally not at the same time, so can make most of the protocol and keeping a counter unit for when opponent tries to deep stike in) while the main side of the sautekh is to hold objectives and take out any high value targets with the DDA.
hopefully the wraiths should be a good bullet magnet while the destroyers are not on the board, to ideally allow the rest of the list to gain objectives in the background

What do people think about the Traits for Tshards? I think you will want Cosmic Tyrant every game, so there is no need to risk the rolling.

Any other thoughts?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Isn't Kutlakh already the overlord of a dynasty? I don't think you can give him another code.

The code itself has no rules and FW said for other armies to pick the tactic most fitting for the army. Maynarkh is gonna get the same treatment to help save FW time, and seeing as we have freedom until that point I'm spitballing this idea as it came to me over a foofoo coffee beverage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So basically no specific Warlord Trait or relic, but the code rule itself is...gold.

Huh, well that's dumb. You'd think they'd churn out an update to immediately bring Maynarkh in line with everyone else.
I guess FW has gotten lazy then.

Necron Army list

moonsmite wrote:

Spoiler:

Command Points: 7

Battalion Detachment
Keyword: Sautekh

HQ: Catacomb Command Barge (138) Staff of Light (10) Gauss cannon (20)
= 169pts (warlord : 1 reroll per game and cp back on 5+)
HQ: Cryptek(70) Staff of Light (10) Cape (5) = 85pts

Troop: Immortal x 8 (40) Tesla x 9 (45) = 85pts
Troop: Immortal x 8 (40) Tesla x 9 (45) = 85pts
Troop: Immortal x 8 (40) Gauss x 9 (45) = 85pts

Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark = 193pts
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark = 193pts

Detachment total = 894

Outrider Detachment
Keyword: nephrekh

HQ: Cryptek(70) Staff of Light (10) Cape (5) = 85

Fast attack: Canoptek Scarabs x 3 = 39pts
Fast attack: Canoptek Scarabs x 4 = 52pts
Wraiths x 6 = 330pts
Destroyer x 6 (180) Gauss Cannon x 6 (120) = 300pts
Destroyer x 6 (180) Gauss Cannon x 6 (120) = 300pts

Detachment total = 1106

Army Total = 2000/2000pts

You might want to take a look at your math, there.
(8 Immortals is 136 points. 85 points will only get you 5)
Otherwise, if you can make the points work, yeah, not bad

Sorry ment to be 5 per unit, not sure where the 8 came from lol prob was thinking of the cost and put 8 down instead of 5

Also noticed i had x9 for all the immortal guns too. so yea was thinking of cost not unit size >.<

Am I missing something? The sautekh dynasty code doesn't keep tesla from generating extra hits from anything I've seen. I don't know why people are indicating it does.

Sautekh simply lets you advance and still fire.... It only effects the weapon type, not the weapon special rules.

Personally, I think this can be pretty useful since the majority of our weapons are 24 inch range. Monolith can get into range that much faster, immortals and warriors might be able to get a first turn volley into some targets normally out of reach...throughout the game it will increase your likely hood of being in range of an optimal target

Aren't assault weapons -1 to hit when you've Advanced, meaning you can't get 6s for Tesla?

punisher357 wrote:
Am I missing something? The sautekh dynasty code doesn't keep tesla from generating extra hits from anything I've seen. I don't know why people are indicating it does.
Sautekh simply lets you advance and still fire.... It only effects the weapon type, not the weapon special rules.

... who was saying Tesla wouldn't proc under Sautekh?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Aren't assault weapons -1 to hit when you've Advanced, meaning you can't get 6s for Tesla?

Oh are they? That's pretty lame then.

Danny76 wrote:
I’m still wondering everyone’s thoughts on getting the best out of Praetorians and Lychguard.
What set up is the one you’d use if you had to.
Which would you avoid for good.

Lych Warscythes
Lych Hyperphase Sword & Shield
Praet Rod of Covenant
Praet Void Blade & Particle Caster

I’ve got multiple boxes so it seems a waste to not build up anything, even if it doesn’t get used much..

Lychguard: with +1 str on the hyper phase sword I think sword and board lychguard are the winner, because you end trading +1 str and +1 damage for a 4++, which seems like a better deal since they are likely to take a lot of fire getting into CC and when units fall back from CC, and the first rule of warfare* is you can't kill anyone if you are dead.

Praetorian: I think this one is a little less clear cut, but my preference would be rod Praetorians, since they will have more punch on the way into CC, and anything that's worth being in CC with will probably fall back every round.

Out of the two lychguard seem more useful right now, since they can benefit from veil of darkness, dynasty codes, are tougher overall, and can get buffed by lords and overlords.

* = there are several first rules of warfare

punisher357 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Aren't assault weapons -1 to hit when you've Advanced, meaning you can't get 6s for Tesla?

Oh are they? That's pretty lame then.

But all tesla weapons are assault anyway.

 Sim-Life wrote:

punisher357 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Aren't assault weapons -1 to hit when you've Advanced, meaning you can't get 6s for Tesla?

Oh are they? That's pretty lame then.

But all tesla weapons are assault anyway.

Yeah. I know that. I just didn't remember you get a negative one to hit when assaulting

 skoffs wrote:
[...]
Scarabs (Nephrekh, for 6" advance code)
Wraiths (Novokh, for reroll hits code and Blood.R strat)
[...]

Why Nephrekh for Scarabs, when there is nothing being fast enough to outrun them if used for shielding purposes AND they have fly, so dont bother with intervening models at all while moving?
I would suggest to use Novokh for scarabs, for reroll to hit, because they dropped from ws3+ to ws4+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:

punisher357 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Aren't assault weapons -1 to hit when you've Advanced, meaning you can't get 6s for Tesla?

Oh are they? That's pretty lame then.

But all tesla weapons are assault anyway.

The issue was that the Nephrek dynasty ability code "Translocation beams" does not benefit them at all, because even with a safe +6" advance you cant procc 6+ tesla shots because of -1 to hit.
Dont mix with Sautekh dynasty code "Relentless Advance", which transforms every weapons to assault while advancing. Would be cool if you could combine the two...

so if we would compare TB with practice casters to 2 warriors (~ same cost):
2W || 2W
14 || 5 move
3+ || 4+ save
3 shots AP0 S6 || 2 rapid fire S4 AP-1
T5 || T4

I just think that running TB is more powerful than warriors

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
so if we would compare TB with practice casters to 2 warriors (~ same cost):
2W || 2W
14 || 5 move
3+ || 4+ save
3 shots AP0 S6 || 2 rapid fire S4 AP-1

I just think that running TB is more powerful than warriors

Nevertheless you will need some troops for your objective secure and cp generations via detachment.

 skoffs wrote:
I think it might be a good idea to compile a list of what things want to be from what Dynasty and why.
Eg.

Gauss Immortals (Mephrit, for AP-1 code./Sautekh, for advance and shoot code)
Tesla Immortals (Mephrit, for AP-1 code)
Warriors (?)
Ghost A. (?)

Gauss Tomb Blades (?)
Tesla Tomb Blades (Mephrit, for Talent.f.A strat and AP-1 code)
Destroyers (Nephrekh, for Translo.C strat)
Scarabs (Nephrekh, for 6" advance code)
Wraiths (Novokh, for reroll hits code and Blood.R strat)
*Acanthrites (?)
*To. Sentinel (Sautekh, for all weapons are assault+no heavy penalty for moving)

Deathmarks (Sautekh, for Meth.D strat./Mephrit, for AP-1 code)
Flayed Ones (Novokh, for reroll hits code./Nephrekh, for 6" advance code)
Lychguard (Novokh, for reroll hits code and Blood.R strat./Nephrekh, for 6" advance code)
Praetorians (N/A)
Tr. Stalker (N/A)
Deceiver (N/A)
Night B. (N/A)
*To. Stalker (?)

Spyder (?)
H. Destroyers (?)
A. Barge (Mephrit, for AP-1 code./Nihilakh, for reroll 1s if didn't move code)
Doomsday A. (Nihilakh, for reroll 1s if didn't move code)
Monolith (?)
T. C'tan (N/A)
*Tess. Ark (?)
*S. Pylon (Nihilakh, for reroll 1s if didn't move code)

Doom S. (Sautekh, for all weapons are assault+no heavy penalty for moving)
Night S. (?)
*Shroud (?)

Obelisk (?)
T. Vault (Mephrit, for Talent.f.A strat and AP-1 code) [can the vault even use codes???]
*G. Pylon (Nihilakh, for reroll 1s if didn't move code)

* = FW

What’s the thinking behind Methodical Destruction for Deathmarks? Just ensuring additional hits which may convert to 6s to wound?

 DaBraken wrote:
Nevertheless you will need some troops for your objective secure and cp generations via detachment.

So i can run 3 outriders and get 6CP with good units or run battalion + outrider and get 7CP. Does +1CP worth getting warriors / immortals? Immortal are cool but can be wiped very easy and need delivery system. TB are just flat better


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sieGermans wrote:

What’s the thinking behind Methodical Destruction for Deathmarks? Just ensuring additional hits which may convert to 6s to wound?

I think it would be better to use Talent for Annihilation. It's 1CP and does better imho

Danny76 wrote:
I’m still wondering everyone’s thoughts on getting the best out of Praetorians and Lychguard.
What set up is the one you’d use if you had to.
Which would you avoid for good.

Lych Warscythes
Lych Hyperphase Sword & Shield
Praet Rod of Covenant
Praet Void Blade & Particle Caster

I’ve got multiple boxes so it seems a waste to not build up anything, even if it doesn’t get used much..

I think the order you've got is correct.

Lychguard with warscythes are amazing... if they can actually reach anything. They carve through everything up to T8 with the +1S stratagem. But they need a delivery system, because they're not making the front lines on a 5" move. For veil or novokh stratagem, even with an overlord granting MWBD and burning a CP to reroll a die if you fail, you can land a 9" charge between 60-70% of the time (depending on how willing you are to reroll), which isn't great as a lynchpin of your army. That's a lot of resources for a 'maybe', plus you're only hitting chaff at that point. Invasion beams look like the best bet, since they can get you exactly where you need them to hit artillery and such, and they're less risky with the new stratagems. Suicide melee assassin is a niche role you might not get to use often, but it's still a role.

Lychguard with shield are in an odd place to me. They're pretty efficient and great at tanking, but suffer from the same issue as scytheguard. For a little more than 1.5x the cost you can get a wraith with a better invuln, 1.5x the wounds and attacks, and 2 damage. Plus wraiths don't need a delivery system... so why not just use wraiths instead?

I would 100% avoid Praetorians. As Grimgold said, without <Dynasty> they're lacking a lot of options and synergies. But even their base stats don't make sense. They try and go half-and-half, but are worse than dedicated units on both sides.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

 DaBraken wrote:
Nevertheless you will need some troops for your objective secure and cp generations via detachment.

So i can run 3 outriders and get 6CP with good units or run battalion + outrider and get 7CP. Does +1CP worth getting warriors / immortals? Immortal are cool but can be wiped very easy and need delivery system. TB are just flat better


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sieGermans wrote:

What’s the thinking behind Methodical Destruction for Deathmarks? Just ensuring additional hits which may convert to 6s to wound?

I think it would be better to use Talent for Annihilation. It's 1CP and does better imho

Agreed, but that’s Mephrit. I was curious as to skoff’s reasoning on the Sautekh build and how MD fit into that.

I really love the Praetorians, especially the fluff. I'm still hoping they will drop the Silent King at (at least) a Primarch level to help out with his own Dynasty with some Triarch specific buffs/codes, With the whole Dark imperium and lots of sh*t going down, I still hope we'll see him somewhere in this edition.

I'm still going to try and get them into a good list. Maybe go all out and have Anrakyr with a cryptek with VoD, Praets and the nightbringer and send them up a flank and veil anrakyr in range and just go to town...(crap I can't because he's not a [dynasty])

Just the Praets and Nightbringer should still be able to handle anything that's send their way. I could still get a cloaktek to follow them around with a nice relic.

If you're supporting that with a few Immortals/DDA's that could work pretty well. But that's for a casual game, you could make everything work for a casual game...
I'm really hard to try to see them in a more tournament list as well, but I just don't see it.

Lychguard could work better there with some of the movement shananigens that you could pull off + a 5++ cryptek could really help the scythguard if you know they'll attract some ap-3 weaponry.

Btw. does anyone know if they've already updated the battlescribe files with the now confirmed Necron 8th ed. Codex rules?

10 Scythguard + Orikan coming out a nightscythe could work playing the strategem. He gives them an all the time invul plus the Resurrection bonus. Would be tricky but you could boost up a CCB and cast MWBD if you planned ahead.

 buddha wrote:
10 Scythguard + Orikan coming out a nightscythe could work playing the strategem. He gives them an all the time invul plus the Resurrection bonus. Would be tricky but you could boost up a CCB and cast MWBD if you planned ahead.

Orikan is a big trap IMO, even with his decent price cut.

First, he is Sautekh. Lychguard would benefit way more from Novokh for re-roll to hit.
Second, the enemy is going to pour everything they have on Scytheguard. A 5++ isn't going to save them. And even then, a 5++ against ranged attack will do practically the same for a unit of suicide-guard.
And last, but more a personal opinion: I find Orikan a bit too unreliable, with him turning super-saiyan often too late/not at all.

 Grimgold wrote:

Danny76 wrote:
I’m still wondering everyone’s thoughts on getting the best out of Praetorians and Lychguard.
What set up is the one you’d use if you had to.
Which would you avoid for good.

Lych Warscythes
Lych Hyperphase Sword & Shield
Praet Rod of Covenant
Praet Void Blade & Particle Caster

I’ve got multiple boxes so it seems a waste to not build up anything, even if it doesn’t get used much..

Lychguard: with +1 str on the hyper phase sword I think sword and board lychguard are the winner, because you end trading +1 str and +1 damage for a 4++, which seems like a better deal since they are likely to take a lot of fire getting into CC and when units fall back from CC, and the first rule of warfare* is you can't kill anyone if you are dead.

Praetorian: I think this one is a little less clear cut, but my preference would be rod Praetorians, since they will have more punch on the way into CC, and anything that's worth being in CC with will probably fall back every round.

Out of the two lychguard seem more useful right now, since they can benefit from veil of darkness, dynasty codes, are tougher overall, and can get buffed by lords and overlords.

* = there are several first rules of warfare

Survivability on the Lychguard is going to be a must, particularly when there probably won't be too huge a unit with whatever choices are in lists out of these units.
Indeed, Lychguard seem like the choice, particularly when they get all the army perks and such that Praetorians miss out on.

Xachariah wrote:
I think the order you've got is correct.

Lychguard with warscythes are amazing... if they can actually reach anything. They carve through everything up to T8 with the +1S stratagem. But they need a delivery system, because they're not making the front lines on a 5" move. For veil or novokh stratagem, even with an overlord granting MWBD and burning a CP to reroll a die if you fail, you can land a 9" charge between 60-70% of the time (depending on how willing you are to reroll), which isn't great as a lynchpin of your army. That's a lot of resources for a 'maybe', plus you're only hitting chaff at that point. Invasion beams look like the best bet, since they can get you exactly where you need them to hit artillery and such, and they're less risky with the new stratagems. Suicide melee assassin is a niche role you might not get to use often, but it's still a role.

Lychguard with shield are in an odd place to me. They're pretty efficient and great at tanking, but suffer from the same issue as scytheguard. For a little more than 1.5x the cost you can get a wraith with a better invuln, 1.5x the wounds and attacks, and 2 damage. Plus wraiths don't need a delivery system... so why not just use wraiths instead?

I would 100% avoid Praetorians. As Grimgold said, without <Dynasty> they're lacking a lot of options and synergies. But even their base stats don't make sense. They try and go half-and-half, but are worse than dedicated units on both sides.

I guess having the warscythes there but not as a main threat, I might be able to work up the field or await something hitting my lines that needs a heavy hitter which could give them a bit more use.


I'm toying with repeating what I did with the Immortal/Deathmarks box and using warrior bodies to get two things out of this kit (in fact I got all three options with that one, but these guys are a bit more ornate..), so I can perhaps at least get all the Lychguard options done, 15 of each..

For now maybe Praetorians are just a lost cause..

Hm, I just realised something:

The Veil HQ + Zahndrekh + Obyron Lychguard Bomb can't benefit from Novokh, since both Zhandrekh and Obyron are Sautekh Dynasty.

A Novokh warlord /w Veil, who either has re-roll failed charge rolls or the Novokh warlord trait (Death to the false emperor) would be WAY better on them.

 DaBraken wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
so if we would compare TB with practice casters to 2 warriors (~ same cost):
2W || 2W
14 || 5 move
3+ || 4+ save
3 shots AP0 S6 || 2 rapid fire S4 AP-1

I just think that running TB is more powerful than warriors

Nevertheless you will need some troops for your objective secure and cp generations via detachment.

Which is really only what you'd need Immortals for. Not that Warriors are really BAD but Immortals are just better bang for the buck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Isn't Kutlakh already the overlord of a dynasty? I don't think you can give him another code.

The code itself has no rules and FW said for other armies to pick the tactic most fitting for the army. Maynarkh is gonna get the same treatment to help save FW time, and seeing as we have freedom until that point I'm spitballing this idea as it came to me over a foofoo coffee beverage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So basically no specific Warlord Trait or relic, but the code rule itself is...gold.

Huh, well that's dumb. You'd think they'd churn out an update to immediately bring Maynarkh in line with everyone else.
I guess FW has gotten lazy then.

Kinda-ish.

However that's why I wanted to bring up the strategy itself. We basically have a choice and I wanted to think outside the box.

sieGermans wrote:
What’s the thinking behind Methodical Destruction for Deathmarks? Just ensuring additional hits which may convert to 6s to wound?

I think it would be better to use Talent for Annihilation. It's 1CP and does better imho

Agreed, but that’s Mephrit. I was curious as to skoff’s reasoning on the Sautekh build and how MD fit into that.

I ran the numbers and Deathmarks with +1 to hit were roughly the same effectiveness as Deathmarks with AP-1. The tricky thing is, how do you give Deathmarks +1 to hit if they drop in? That's where the Sautekh strat comes in... but if you go Mephrit then you've got the TfA strat PLUS the AP-1 code you can stack on them.
So basically if you're already running Sautekh and don't want to add a Mephrit minor detachment you can still employ the "Death-Lord" character assassination squad combo and still have it be pretty effective.
But yeah, this combo with Mephrit is the better way to go.

 skoffs wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
What’s the thinking behind Methodical Destruction for Deathmarks? Just ensuring additional hits which may convert to 6s to wound?

I think it would be better to use Talent for Annihilation. It's 1CP and does better imho

Agreed, but that’s Mephrit. I was curious as to skoff’s reasoning on the Sautekh build and how MD fit into that.

I ran the numbers and Deathmarks with +1 to hit were roughly the same effectiveness as Deathmarks with AP-1. The tricky thing is, how do you give Deathmarks +1 to hit if they drop in? That's where the Sautekh strat comes in... but if you go Mephrit then you've got the TfA strat PLUS the AP-1 code you can stack on them.
So basically if you're already running Sautekh and don't want to add a Mephrit minor detachment you can still employ the "Death-Lord" character assassination squad combo and still have it be pretty effective.
But yeah, this combo with Mephrit is the better way to go.

2CP +1 to hit? I don't think it worth it.

I take a bit of an issue with deathmarks in their current state. Unless you really want to stack up on them to target a single target, the vault provides for a pretty decent character sniper AS WELL AS being a massive, durable wall and a horde killer.

Currently my only use for deathmarks would be for anti deep strike against glass cannons, i.e. genestealers, since a wall of scarabs will be a good bit more effective at anti deeptriking when you dont stand a good chance of damaging it with deathmarks.

Two squads of Deathmarks, both with +1 to hit AND rerolling 1s to wound from the Veil-Lord, will put out serious hurt against even a Primarch.
Similarly, both Deathmark units getting AP-1 and rerolling 1s, PLUS one unit getting extra hit rolls on 6 to hit, is gonna be vicious.
But again, this is just going to be for cases where you're absolutely desperate to take out a key character in an alpha strike situation.
For general purposes a T.Vault moved up with the Deceiver is probably going to be more useful overall.
...

OR you could do something insane and go all in on your alpha strike: ... it's a work in progress.

Just go with the ultimate character killing alpha strike list. You know you want to...



For when you absolutely have to delete every enemy character on turn 1.

FYI, given Talent for Annihilation’s wording, you can’t use it on ethereal interception, as those shots happen during movement.

sieGermans wrote:
FYI, given Talent for Annihilation’s wording, you can’t use it on ethereal interception, as those shots happen during movement.

Yeah, this combo would be a during-your-own-turn deep strike operation, assumedly same turn as the Lord and G.Immortals Veil up.
Not as cool as the during-your-opponent's-turn variety, but more effective because of the abilities you can stack.
(plus it can still work even if you don't get first turn, something that you can't do as effectively with Deceiver bomb)

Hey Team, I have a tactics problem for the group if this is an appropriate place to raise it.

The leading player in our meta is Imperial Guard, and he is absolutely wrecking face. Leading challenges:

LOS-blocking terrain throughout board, including deployment zones. Behind these, he places Earthshakers and Manticores, effectively rendering them invulnerable to anything but deep strike and flanks. We are pressuring to reduce terrain placement of this nature, but even if reduced in scale, this problem is likely to endure.

Effective deployment zone securement vs. deep strike. With Guard, he has so many units that it is easy to secure his rear area vs. VoD, the new deep strike stratagem, Canoptek Stalkers and Deathmarks.

Effective chaff screens. At the beginning of at least the first turn, IG squads provide bulk chaff in front. This would be less of a nuisance if artillery wasn't effectively spread out across his backzone.

Leman Russes double-shoot abilities. With artillery and slow moving Russes, he has a superb firebase. While this might normally penalize him in objective games, the sheer abundance of units and that he dominates at least his own deployment zone means he remains competitive even though his lists are configured for overwhelming firepower.

Reanimate denying capabilities. Pask/Commanders in Gatling variant Russes + Mortars + Earthshakers just annihilate 20-blob warrior squads or scarabs. No infantry can be really effective against this combo.

In short, with non-LoS artillery and terrain he can be effective while my own artillery cannot see many targets. Leman Russes effectively double tap what they can see at game start, whittling away capabilities so that when infantry or other forces come up against his mass S4/S5 fires, they are less unsupported.

Thoughts on potential counters/ways to mitigate?

Personally i would be tempted to spam quantum shields against him. Try and make as much of his units worthless and target down the low damage models first.

With the buff to doomsday arks, this would be my possible tactic to try and over come overwhelming firepower

Red Acolyte wrote:
Hey Team, I have a tactics problem for the group if this is an appropriate place to raise it.

[...]

Thoughts on potential counters/ways to mitigate?

First of all, who provides the table and what mission types do you play? It feels a bit like either mission and/or table favor him.
Against such amount of firepower threat overload or play the mission are the ways I would take.
For me as tyranid main, its not that hard most of the time. If he doesnt know which target to kill first because everything is kind of a threat he will stumble. If you bring him only few units a time, he kills them as they popp up.

With necrons you have to think a bit more. You need units, which can pass the screens and engage the tanks. Not necessarily to kill them, but to stop them shooting and force movement.
At the same time you have to give him other targets to deal with.
Wraiths, scarabs in large numbers, tomb blades, and some deepstriking stuff like flayed ones, destroyers, or deathmarks should do it.
Wraiths and scarabs jump over screens and go for tanks, flayed one, deathmarks, tomb blades and destroyers shoot from close, or try cc.
Then you need punch to threat him more. DDA aggressively played could do some work, shooting big gun at tanks and hard targets, and flayer arrays at screens. S3-5 fire doens not hurt that much, and big stuff drops to quantum shield.

This would be an idea, how it could work.

If the player is hiding behind LoS blocking terrain but is foolish enough to leave you room to deep strike in a unit - try out the Tomb Sentinel. That cannon is similarly effective to a DDA. You'd have to go Sautekh to make it ideal, which is fine because they are likely going to be a core option for the warlord trait anyhow.

Doomsday Arks are probably pretty good at punishing Guard Leman Russes I think. Not sure what to do about the Artillery though.

Like with any Necron list you should have a unit of 6 Destroyers Deep Striking with the Nephrek Stratagem. They have a good chance of taking out a tank in one turn with extermination protocols. DDAs are also good. You could go for warriors and/or tesla Immortals also Deep striking in with the destroyers to shoot his screens. Tomb blades are -1 to hit which is nasty for guard.

I'd recommend trying a list that only deploys QS vehicles on the board and then deep strikes Destroyers and infantry. That should help protect against his T1 shooting if you go second. The QS strat should help minimize losses on turn 1.

Necron salad is what I would take. Doomsday arks with the move and heavy don't count as movement, probably 2. Aim for the russes, the ones that can kill your infantry super easily.

For the chaff annihilation barges and immortals with tessela, really anything with tessela. Not sure what codes to give them, but tessela should help with the chaff.

Deep striking destroyers will help a lot as well, I think they will become a staple of our competitive lists.

Once you punch a hole in his lines then go for the artillery.

Target priority will be important, so will getting first turn. But if you don't have first turn it's not that bad. I would run deceiver for this issue, and a lord or cryptech with the veil for maximum redeployment options based off of what happens for rolling for first turn.

Good luck, and if the tables are like you say and the corners always have maximum Los blocking terrain I would suggest saying you don't agree to the way the table is set up and ask to move the Los terrain into the corner so you can't deploy behind it.

A bit of topic regarding the IG, but.... have you guys thought on how to deal with stuff like Aspex Scan/Forwarning with a Destroyer bomb?
I'm sure those Dark Reapers near a Farseer, or Hellblasters holding Guilliman's hand would LOVE it if our most potent unit dropped right in front of their guns.....

Red Acolyte wrote:
Hey Team, I have a tactics problem for the group if this is an appropriate place to raise it.

The leading player in our meta is Imperial Guard, and he is absolutely wrecking face. Leading challenges:

LOS-blocking terrain throughout board, including deployment zones. Behind these, he places Earthshakers and Manticores, effectively rendering them invulnerable to anything but deep strike and flanks. We are pressuring to reduce terrain placement of this nature, but even if reduced in scale, this problem is likely to endure.

Effective deployment zone securement vs. deep strike. With Guard, he has so many units that it is easy to secure his rear area vs. VoD, the new deep strike stratagem, Canoptek Stalkers and Deathmarks.

Effective chaff screens. At the beginning of at least the first turn, IG squads provide bulk chaff in front. This would be less of a nuisance if artillery wasn't effectively spread out across his backzone.

Leman Russes double-shoot abilities. With artillery and slow moving Russes, he has a superb firebase. While this might normally penalize him in objective games, the sheer abundance of units and that he dominates at least his own deployment zone means he remains competitive even though his lists are configured for overwhelming firepower.

Reanimate denying capabilities. Pask/Commanders in Gatling variant Russes + Mortars + Earthshakers just annihilate 20-blob warrior squads or scarabs. No infantry can be really effective against this combo.

In short, with non-LoS artillery and terrain he can be effective while my own artillery cannot see many targets. Leman Russes effectively double tap what they can see at game start, whittling away capabilities so that when infantry or other forces come up against his mass S4/S5 fires, they are less unsupported.

Thoughts on potential counters/ways to mitigate?

First, use the rule book: the rules for placing terrain offer a mechanism for balance. Number of terrain piece set are 1-2 pieces per 2’ x 2’; so average of 9, but no more than 12 terrain features. Each are placed by alternating players at the start of the game. All terrain used is by agreement between the players. A friendly way to do this is for each player to offer a piece for veto, alternating between them, until the agreed maximum number is reached or until only the minimum remaining number of pieces are the only ones left to choose from.

Secondarily, only his non-LoS guns can fire from cover and have the potential of remaining totally invisible to return fire. Otherwise, make sure to enforce the “totally within and more than 75% obscured” rule for cover for vehicles.

In terms of defined strategies for building and playing:

1. Focus on units with high VoF for toughness 3. Tesla Immortals are useful for this, Warriors, and the new C’Tan fall of stars power. Make sure you mathcraft out his average number of total wounds in a unit, and how many shots you need to take to kill that many. Consider using the new Deepstrike Stratagem to keep these chafe-clearing forces safe on first turn to avoid alpha strike—they would not be back line deep striking: in fact they’ll probably just be deep no-man’s land or your own deployment zone.
2. Focus on units with efficient AV. At this stage, DDA is looking best for this role. It will also be a useful gunboat for chaffe clearing later in the game or a ton key points.

Ignore cute tricks like the deceiver bomb stuff or the mass-TV shenanigans. You need consistency here. Based on your description, I have assumed that he is correctly screening from any Veil tricks.

When taking your DDA shots, focus on one target at a time, and only focus targets you reasonably expect to kill in one round of shooting. Again, mathcraft it out. One DDA is expected to yield: 3.5 shots, only 2.3 hits, only 1.6 wounds, and thereby 5.4 damage. Don’t aim that at the tank with 14 or 18 wounds unless he has 2-3 additional DDAs assisting. If you can’t field as many DDAs as you need in order to reliably give them useful targets, then ignore them altogether (if List tailoring).

Okay, for unit grading, this is what I've got for now- Obviously a work in progress.
If anything should be changed please comment with why you think it deserves a specific grade (will be including reasons when it gets added to the top post).

Doctoralex wrote:
A bit of topic regarding the IG, but.... have you guys thought on how to deal with stuff like Aspex Scan/Forwarning with a Destroyer bomb?
I'm sure those Dark Reapers near a Farseer, or Hellblasters holding Guilliman's hand would LOVE it if our most potent unit dropped right in front of their guns.....

I think it's only forwarning that's difficult to avoid. Aren't other similar strats only 12" range?

Against forwarning you would have to try and land behind LOS blocking terrain (or bring your own- monolith!)


Edit: I don't think the grading system is going to work very well due to the differences dynasties can make to how effective certain units are.

Also I think you need to be careful giving out A's. Deep striking Destroyers are an A. Nothing else in the book is on their level so they should be the only A. (maybe the T Vault is up there but I don't think so).

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I don't think the grading system is going to work very well due to the differences dynasties can make to how effective certain units are.

Yeah, it's probably going to be an "in general these units are ___" type of guide, going into further dynastic tactics later.
(all stuff being added to the top post for new players who come looking)

Doctoralex wrote:
A bit of topic regarding the IG, but.... have you guys thought on how to deal with stuff like Aspex Scan/Forwarning with a Destroyer bomb?
I'm sure those Dark Reapers near a Farseer, or Hellblasters holding Guilliman's hand would LOVE it if our most potent unit dropped right in front of their guns.....

Auspex is only a 12" range wasn't it? Destroyers have enough legroom for avoiding that.

I'd have to look at Forewarning again though.

 skoffs wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I don't think the grading system is going to work very well due to the differences dynasties can make to how effective certain units are.

Yeah, it's probably going to be an "in general these units are ___" type of guide, going into further dynastic tactics later.
(all stuff being added to the top post for new players who come looking)

It's still worth having a rough guide I think. I don't like the monolith being a D but that's probably just wishful thinking on my part.

T. Ark: C. Pricier for similar number but worse shots than a DDA, it could have a role if you need Gauss Cannons more than you need Flayer Arrays, or if you want to add a 5++ at the cost of 2 strength, 3 AP, and 24” range.

Grading this unit at D feels a bit more of a knee jerk reaction to how much better DDAs got than how much worse TAs are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skoffs wrote:
Okay, for unit grading, this is what I've got for now-

Spoiler:

A = borderline auto include
B = really good
C = can be situationally decent
D = generally not worth it
F = straight up bad

Imotekh : B
Zahndrekh : C
Trazyn : D
Anrakyr : ?
*Kutlakh : ?
Obyron : C
Orikan : B
Szeras : B
*Toholk : ?

Command B : A
Overlord : A
D. Lord : C
Lord : B
Cloak-tek : B
Chrono-tek : B

G. Immortals : A
T. Immortals : A
Warriors : B
Ghost A. : B

G. Tomb Blades : A
T. Tomb Blades : A
Destroyers : A
Scarabs : A
Wraiths : B
*Acanthrites : ?
*To. Sentinel : B

Deathmarks : C
Flayed Ones : D
Scythe-guard : C
Shield-guard : C
Rod-Praets : D
Void-Praets : D
HGC Stalker : D
Heat Stalker : D
Part. Stalker : D
Deceiver : A
Night Br. : B
*To. Stalker : D

Spyder : C
H. Destroyers : C
A. Barge : C
Doomsday A. : A
Monolith : D
T. C'tan : B
*Tess. Ark : D
*S. Pylon : ?

Doom S. : C
Night S. : D
*N. Shroud : ?

Obelisk : F
T. Vault : A
*G. Pylon : B

Tomb Citadel : F

Obviously a work in progress.
If anything should be changed please comment with why you think it deserves a specific grade (will be including reasons when it gets added to the top post).

CCB: B. Paying an upgrade cost to turn your OL into a vehicle, you lose 4++, but gain 1 toughness, QS, a 12” movement profile, a Gauss Cannon (or a Tesla cannon; those GC seems more useful at the moment) and 6” additional range on MWBD for farther forward positioned infantry. At under 10W it still dodges direct fire, and it’s high movement profile gives it excellent positioning capacity and juking of incoming anti-character hate. It’s premium cost, however, should only be taken if useful, otherwise you’ve paid an additional 40pts for a basic Overlord. Dynasty considerations include Sautekh to ignore the Heavy penalty on the Gauss Cannon and Mephrit to allow your CCB to snipe characters (for CP).

Based on the rumor mill, I picked up 6 Tesla Tomb Blades with the Shield Vanes.

What are your thoughts on how best to use them? Mobile fire support and objective takers?

CCB almost mandates a lightning field if you take one. That said, I'm feeling like I want to include that setup in any infantry heavy list I'm making.

Tabletop tactics in their video using the new codex mentioned that the T Vault is over 500 points.

So it more than likely has kept the 4+ invul but yeesh I might have just spent $170 on a potential paper weight

 iGuy91 wrote:
Based on the rumor mill, I picked up 6 Tesla Tomb Blades with the Shield Vanes.

What are your thoughts on how best to use them? Mobile fire support and objective takers?

I'd take them as 2 units of 3 for objective garbbing/screening or buy another 3 and make a unit of 9. I think Necron units should be either min or max size to get the most out of RP.


The Tvault is NOT a paper weight. Scary as hell.

Particle Beamer Tomb Blades - Are these horrid? I noticed they didn't even appear in the grading post (sad face) since I like my old small blast template units.

24 points per unit vs 32 for Gauss or Tesla, so I get 4 for the price of 3. Same number of shots as Tesla but more models for better survival / reanimate.
Planning to go Nephrekh which means if I advance I can't fire Gauss, and the negative to Tesla removes its bonus. With the new -1 to hit and auto advance 6" dynasty I see PB as being a fast moving infantry killing option.

I will admit it isn't the best configuration but am I handicapped using it?

I think it's an option for a 72pt objective grabbing unit in a nephrek detachment. Move 20 and fire 9 S6 shots hitting on 4s.

 Ridge wrote:
Tabletop tactics in their video using the new codex mentioned that the T Vault is over 500 points.

So it more than likely has kept the 4+ invul but yeesh I might have just spent $170 on a potential paper weight

It's not, it's 496 like the beta dex, which is still close to 500. It's super hard to kill, and does pretty nuts damage.

I'll stick the rough draft grading on the top now with some of the changes.
Keep it up, guys.

I feel that you taking Particle Beamers on Tombblades are ideal for:
A) Cheap min 3 model units used as screening/objective grabbers or
B) 1 per larger unit to shave points and be the first casualty for the unit.

If you aren't doing A or B, Tesla or Guass are just way more "bang for you buck".

I personally prefer Gauss as AP -2 shreds more models due to cover + natural armour.
Sure Tesla has a higher wound output "potential", but that hardly matters when even Guardsman or Cultitst are getting 4+/5+ armour in cover.
Taking that armour away is worth losing 1 shot or two per volley (assuming rapidfire range, cuz why wouldn't you be in that range?)

-

All cryptek have B. Can we give them some hierarchy? I my opinion nameds are worst. Less flexible and more expensive.
For orikan i will give even C because they always too late right stars.

Feel the Tess. Ark should deserve a B instead of a C.

Over the doomsday ark it still has T7 instead of T6, so plasma and other str 7 weapons wont wreck it as easily.
Comes with a invun too, so can lower the amount the quantum shielding has to do.
And the upgrade to the Gauss cannons also makes this better too.

If the main shot was Str 9+, i would say its an auto include, but in my opinion its still a solid A unit

moonsmite wrote:
Feel the Tess. Ark should deserve a B instead of a C.

Over the doomsday ark it still has T7 instead of T6, so plasma and other str 7 weapons wont wreck it as easily.
Comes with a invun too, so can lower the amount the quantum shielding has to do.
And the upgrade to the Gauss cannons also makes this better too.

If the main shot was Str 9+, i would say its an auto include, but in my opinion its still a solid A unit

Plasma, in practice, is S8.

Ive tested out the T.vault a couple times now. The ammount of mortal wounds that thing is capable of is just plain disgusting. Pick your powers carefully and dont be afraid to burn the 1cp for an extra power after the other 3 go off. Make sure to remember that times arrow can now target characters since this is now done in the movement phase as well. Sky, seismic,cosmic fire are all capable of a hilarious ammount of wounds from the valut. Bought a second one after my first test. I may pick up a third if i decide i dont like having friends anymore.

Does Nemesor Zandrakh still have the "remove all auras" ability? If he does, he should really be ranked higher, as removing Synapse against our new Tyranid overlords would be very useful.

Wow so the Tess Vault really may be useful now? There's been one at my FLGS for a long time now, and has even had the box become sun-bleached... may have to actually think about picking it up.