My biggest problem is that I'm so used to playing Guard which has been really powerful this edition, so I'm viewing this Codex through that lens. I'm not super impressed so far.
BUT I do feel that a Canoptek Wraith heavy list might be viable...
If for whatever reason you can't take the Nephrekh Dynasty for your Destroyers, you can opt in and put them in a Sautekh detachment.
Give them MWBD, and they will still hit on 3+ even when advancing. Hell, you are even making use of the +1 to advance from MWBD!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So I had another idea going through my head. How about trying to get Stormlord and then Heavy Destroyers in their own detachment? They're one of those units that can benefit from the Sautekh trait, and with just 1 CP you'd give all three squads MWBD.
1) Too many heavy weepons
2) Heavy Destroyers havent -1 to hit for moving so get only benefit when aadvance
3) MVBD works better on multi hit unit
Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers don't have a -1 to hit when moving.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So I had another idea going through my head. How about trying to get Stormlord and then Heavy Destroyers in their own detachment? They're one of those units that can benefit from the Sautekh trait, and with just 1 CP you'd give all three squads MWBD.
1) Too many heavy weepons
2) Heavy Destroyers havent -1 to hit for moving so get only benefit when aadvance
3) MVBD works better on multi hit unit
1. How is that too many weapons?
2. Well that's an advantage for last minute objective capturing? I don't understand this being a negative.
3. Not if you wanna bring something big down.
TOTAL POINTS - 1,997 TOTAL COMMAND POINTS - 9 (Battle Forged [3], Battalion [3], Outrider [1], Spearhead [1], Imotekh [1])
Ideally we'd set up the troops up front, Warriors up front with Immortals right behind, with Imotekh and Chronotek mixed in. Imotekh gives MWBD to both Tesla Immortals. Cryptek from Spearhead also comes along, stacking Technomancer. This gives both our Immortals a big buff, and with dual Crypteks, some really solid RP that will make the opponent worry. The Outrider detachment will have its Cryptek use the Veil to pull the Destroyers wherever we need them to take out a priority target. Tomb Blades are for general attack & objective. Scarabs are just there. I guess they can hold something. Finally, the Spearhead detachment will drop 3 DDA's on the back line for heavy support across the map.
The biggest decisions I'm having problems with are what Dynasties to use. Originally I had the Outrider set to Nephrekh for the movement benefits, but I felt that the Destroyers being able to shoot without penalty was more beneficial, so I put them in Sautekh as well. As for the Spearhead, I had them set to Nihilakh to give the DDA's rerolls on 1, but that left the Cryptek utterly useless, as his abilities would only target Nihilakh infantry, which there was none of. Thus I moved them all back to Sautekh.
"A model can only fire the doomsday cannon at high power if it remained stationary in its preceding Movement phase."
Sautekh does not suddenly make this go away.
But you can move and fire your heavy weapon without the -1 penality, and even advance, getting only -1 to hit for changing the heavy cannon to assault.
This has nothing to do with the weapon type. It is an additional restriction on the weapon that is not affected by the Sautekh dynastic code.
So what do you guys think are the go-to powers for the C'tan Shards?
- antimatter Meteor seems like the most Obvious First Choice the only downside is that It has to Target the closest Enemy Meaning It Might hit enemy chaff.
- Sky of the Falling Stars is een close second Choice, though it does nothing if the enemy has got nothing but monsters, vehicles and = < 3 model units.
- Cosmic Fire requires the Ctan to get close and probably needs to advance, meaning it cant fight this turn. The enemy can also be spread out, making the ability less effective.
The other three powers seem too situational ( Arrow & Seismic Assault) or straight up worse than Meteor (Thunderbolt).
In a pinch, the secondary power can be changed with a Strategem. If you are up against a horde and you reeeaaally wish you had Seismic Assault, you can change it out.
What do you guys think? What are your 'standard' powers for your C'tan Shards?
Drakmord wrote: Powers are picked during deployment, so you can tailor your C'tan to the opponent you're facing.
Nope. In the power of the C’tan section, it says ‘Before the battle’ this implies that it has to be written down in your list, just like psychic powers/relics.
Drakmord wrote: Powers are picked during deployment, so you can tailor your C'tan to the opponent you're facing.
Nope. In the power of the C’tan section, it says ‘Before the battle’ this implies that it has to be written down in your list, just like psychic powers/relics.
Has anyone actually got word from GW when "Before the battle actually happens? I would believe it to be before you start deployment as in tournaments here you can either do it before the start of the game or must be included in your list for the reason of fairness. I haven't ever been given the reason that this wording causes this.
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Cryptek from Spearhead also comes along, stacking Technomancer. This gives both our Immortals a big buff, and with dual Crypteks, some really solid RP that will make the opponent worry.
I hope you're not suggesting two Crypteks next to one unit can stack the Technomancer buff for a 3+ RP (because you can't. Units can only benefit from that ability once per round. Likewise for Master Technomancer).
Automatically Appended Next Post: And why are people suddenly trying to stick Destroyers into Sautekh? They already aren't penalized for shooting when moving, so them being from Sautekh will not benefit them as much as being from Nephrekh or even Mephrit.
1# Swap the 2 DDA for 2 HDestroyers and use spare points on Scarabs or immortals.
2# Drop 12 Warriors and upgrade HDestroyer to DDA.
3# Squeeze in a Ctan for 5 Flayed ones and 12 Warriors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And why are people suddenly trying to stick Destroyers into Sautekh? They already aren't penalized for shooting when moving, so them being from Sautekh will not benefit them as much as being from Nihilakh or even Mephrit.
Why Nihilakh? Destroyers already get to re-roll 1s?
Nephrekh is useless for Destroyers as Advancing is a definite NONO.... Unless you of course are playing as Sautekh and then the Destroyer gets to advance and shoot at -1 to hit AND re-roll 1s...
Novokh is allso kinda Meh since you dont want the Destroyers in CC anyway.
Mephrit can give an extra AP-1, but Do you want the destroyer that close? Unless you are accompanying a CCDLORD with Nanoscarab Casket
And why are people suddenly trying to stick Destroyers into Sautekh? They already aren't penalized for shooting when moving, so them being from Sautekh will not benefit them as much as being from Nihilakh or even Mephrit.
I personally wouldn't but I can see people arguing that sautekh can be useful for:
1. Using Imotekh to mwb two squads of destroyers
2. Nephrekh can be replaced by veil
3. Can advance and still shoot in a pinch
4. AP-4 isn't amazingly useful, can avoid your opponent from getting lucky and rolling a bunch of 6s, but on average not worth sacrificing other advantages
5. Using Methodical Destruction and Extermination protocols on them can make them particularly amazing at taking down those pesky -2 to hit fliers if they are within range.
Currently I am on the fence about running nephrekh, sautekh, or mephrit on mine, I do love not having my opponent being able to eliminate them turn 1, but can I get away with sitting them behind LoS blocking and veiling them in. having a sautekh warlord is just really handy, so it would mean giving up having them supported by a cryptek to give them mephrit, which to be perfectly honest wont come into play when using 24" guns. And being able to shoot after advancing means that trying to get to a particular position (cover/objective etc) is a bit easier
Drakmord wrote: Powers are picked during deployment, so you can tailor your C'tan to the opponent you're facing.
Nope. In the power of the C’tan section, it says ‘Before the battle’ this implies that it has to be written down in your list, just like psychic powers/relics.
Are you sure? The Battle Primer even indicates that psychic powers are generated before either player deploys. There's also a sidebar for sequencing "before the battle begins" effects between you and your opponent.
I don't mean to derail the thread with interpretations, but I wanted to point this out. If it really is unclear to other players I'll submit it for the FAQ after the codex officially drops.
Your list raises a recurring tension: is it better to have more command points or more lethal units? You have 165 points in Crypteks dedicated solely to breaking units out into separate detachments of the same Dynasty. Removing either HQ could help fill out the scarabs, the destroyers, the tomb blades, or the warriors depending on need. Otherwise, it seems like a reasonable spread of capabilities.
Related but for everyone: can you have a Cryptek with neither the Chronometer or Cloak? Just a budget 80 point HQ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Rottweiler
Your first list is illegal as it only has 2 Troop choices. Could split one of the immortal squads into two MSU.
Drakmord wrote: Powers are picked during deployment, so you can tailor your C'tan to the opponent you're facing.
Nope. In the power of the C’tan section, it says ‘Before the battle’ this implies that it has to be written down in your list, just like psychic powers/relics.
Wait, is that really your interpretation?
How fortuitous! Because before the tournament, my 8 transcendent C'tan list managed to ALL roll 8x Cosmic Tyrant + 8x Immune to Natural Law, with Sky of Falling Stars randomly for each one!
Drakmord wrote: Powers are picked during deployment, so you can tailor your C'tan to the opponent you're facing.
Nope. In the power of the C’tan section, it says ‘Before the battle’ this implies that it has to be written down in your list, just like psychic powers/relics.
Wait, is that really your interpretation?
How fortuitous! Because before the tournament, my 8 transcendent C'tan list managed to ALL roll 8x Cosmic Tyrant + 8x Immune to Natural Law, with Sky of Falling Stars randomly for each one!
What are the odds?
I know right, I also managed to roll for a 3++ and 2 powers for the t ctan bonuses. I couldn't believe my luck you just had to be there.
I feel that our answer to horde spam is to have enough scarabs to fight for board control, to tie up hordes, while having enough guns behind the scarabs for shooting.
So, blocks of necron warriors behind lots of scarabs along with stuff like destroyers and such. We want the scarabs to screen our shooting (including our warriors) so that they don't get charged and then our famed resilience from RP will hopefully keep us shooting longer than other faction troops.
We might not be the most efficient in fire output compared to some other factions, but with RP, we should hang around a lot longer, so our shooting output over several turns might be equivalent or better. But we need scarabs to screen our necrons warriors, otherwise, they are very vulnerable to getting charged by some melee unit.
General notes A = Should be the bulk of your army
B = Viable
C = Usable if you've got a very specific strategy in mind
D = Don't use these
F = Why does this exist?
Fast Attack Canoptek Acanthrite - A (Tomb Blades with meltas and power swords)
Canoptek Scarab Swarm - A-
Canoptek Tomb Sentinel - A
Canoptek Wraith - A-
Destroyer - A+ (IMO best overall in codex)
Tomb Blade (Guass) - A
Tomb Blade (Particle) - C
Tomb Blade (Tesla) - B (I consider these relatively worse than Immortals since they can't get MWBD, and they'll almost never be Sautekh for +1 stratagem.)
Elite Canoptek Tomb Stalker - C
C'Tan Shard of the Deceiver - B (I see his potential, but can't rank him higher without a concrete use-case.)
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer - B+
Deathmark - D
Flayed One - D
Lychguard (Warscythe/Sword & Board) - B/B- (On actual fighting ability they're A+, but armies don't start 5" away)
Triarch Praetorian (Rod of Covenant/Particle Caster and Blade) - C/C-
Triarch Stalker (based on weapon) - C-/D
Heavy Support Annihilation Barge (base/tesla) - C/D
Canoptek Spyder - B-
Doomsday Ark - A
Heavy Destroyer - B-
Monolith - C (As a raw combat unit, it's got decent stats; not great but good enough that it's transport and deep strike push it into 'usable' territory.)
Transcendent C'Tan - B (Tentative, still not sure how I feel about their powers)
Flyer & LOW Doom Scythe - C-
Night Scythe - C (Just on their ability to fight, they're a high D, but invasion beams are integral to Lychguard, which are fantastic)
Gauss Pylon - D (Deep strike is nice, but I don't see the point now that we have usable anti-armor. Although, not sure if I'm wrong on this, but can it shoot if you get a model into melee with it?)
Obelisk - F (IMO worst in codex, and we've got flayed ones!)
Tesseract Vault - B+ (Again, unsure on powers)
I'm on board for most of these, with a few exceptions
Tomb blades - Tesla tomb blades will be a staple of mephrit list since the -1 AP makes tesla much better and is not hard to get for units as fast as tomb blades. They are also legitimately one of our only answers to hordes. With talent for annihilation they roll an extra shot for every six and get three hits. They can expect 21ish hits out 18 shots, at str 5 and probably -1 AP. A max sized squad of tesla tomb blades will put out about 10 heavy bolters worth of damage on a TFA round. We have lots of weapons that have good ap and str, but only tomb blade tesla have that high of a return on shots per point invested. I'g put them even with gauss and better than gauss with mephrit.
Tomb sentinel - I have one, but I just have a hard time giving it an A, it's short range, very big, and isn't super good with necron codes. I just don't know if the value is there to justify an A, I'd think it's more in line with a B.
Named C'Tan - I feel like they have stayed more or less the same, while the rest of the codex has gotten better around them. Deceiver still has his super lame restrictions on charging with GI, and nightbringer is a great beat stick but not really much beyond that. I think they are a C- for deceiver and a C for nightbringer.
Monolith - I feel like this should be a D, for its cost it's under gunned, it has the equivalent of a rapid fire battle cannon and some heavy bolters. While we'd like to think it's tough it's just a LRBT with some extra wounds. Tomb world deploy is less awful with the codex (still awful though), but not good enough to justify the monoliths anemic offensive ability, and while dimensional corridor is great, if you really want to spend CP to deep strike units take nephrekh and save yourself hundreds of points.
Doom scythe - Might get up to a B with sautekh.
triarch stalker - A twin las dreadnought equivalent, with QS and a buff for the rest of the army. It doesn't really need codes to be useful, and the buff it provides dovetails nicely into several dynasty specific tactics. I'd say the the twin heavy gauss version gets a B, the rest are in C territory though.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I feel that our answer to horde spam is to have enough scarabs to fight for board control, to tie up hordes, while having enough guns behind the scarabs for shooting.
So, blocks of necron warriors behind lots of scarabs along with stuff like destroyers and such. We want the scarabs to screen our shooting (including our warriors) so that they don't get charged and then our famed resilience from RP will hopefully keep us shooting longer than other faction troops.
We might not be the most efficient in fire output compared to some other factions, but with RP, we should hang around a lot longer, so our shooting output over several turns might be equivalent or better. But we need scarabs to screen our necrons warriors, otherwise, they are very vulnerable to getting charged by some melee unit.
Warriors don't last man, RP is really overestimated by people who haven't played enough games to realise its shortcomings. As well as this as soon as warriors are locked in combat their effectiveness drops dramatically. The scarabs wont hold for long.
Our current best methods for horde clearing are Tomb Blades and The tesseract vault, the vault's guns are ok and can put some hurt on hordes but mostly comes in handy when it just points and deletes a third of a unit, (you see that unit of 40 boys over there... *pop* 13 dead). The blades with tesla can stand back behind your scarabs without having to get too close and can still retreat and shoot when they get locked into combat. <- People severely underestimate this until they really need it. As well as this tesla is amazing in overwatch, since it maths out to be the same as hitting at a -1 to hit. The T5 on these will also cause a headache for your S3/4 opponent.
New here but a long time 40k player. Here are my thoughts:
Spoiler:
Imotekh : B
Zahndrekh : C
Trazyn : D
Anrakyr : C
*Kutlakh : C
Obyron : C
Orikan : C
Szeras : B
*Toholk : C
Command B. : A
Overlord : B
D. Lord : C
Lord : B
Cloak-tek : B
Chrono-tek : B
G. Immortals : B
T. Immortals : A
Warriors : C
Ghost A. : C
G. Tomb Blades : A
T. Tomb Blades : B (A in sautekh)
P.B. Tomb Blades : B
Destroyers : A
Scarabs : A
Wraiths : B
*Acanthrites : C
*To. Sentinel : B
Deathmarks : C
Flayed Ones : D
Scythe-guard : C
Shield-guard : C
Rod-Praets : D
Void-Praets : D
HGC Stalker : D
Heat Stalker : D
Part. Stalker : D
Deceiver : B
Night Br. : C
*To. Stalker : D
Spyder : D
H. Destroyers : C
A. Barge : C
Doomsday A. : A
Monolith : C
T. C'tan : B
*Tess. Ark : B
*Heat S. Pylon : B
*Death S. Pylon : D
*Gauss S. Pylon : C
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Cryptek from Spearhead also comes along, stacking Technomancer. This gives both our Immortals a big buff, and with dual Crypteks, some really solid RP that will make the opponent worry.
I hope you're not suggesting two Crypteks next to one unit can stack the Technomancer buff for a 3+ RP (because you can't. Units can only benefit from that ability once per round. Likewise for Master Technomancer).
Why can’t they stack? In the Index it specifies that for Master Technomancer that “a unit cannot benefit from both the Master Technomancer and Technomancer abilities in the same turn.” However, that restriction does not appear in the description of regular Technomancer. It also does not appear in the new codex. It just says you add 1 to RP.
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Cryptek from Spearhead also comes along, stacking Technomancer. This gives both our Immortals a big buff, and with dual Crypteks, some really solid RP that will make the opponent worry.
I hope you're not suggesting two Crypteks next to one unit can stack the Technomancer buff for a 3+ RP (because you can't. Units can only benefit from that ability once per round. Likewise for Master Technomancer).
Why can’t they stack? In the Index it specifies that for Master Technomancer that “a unit cannot benefit from both the Master Technomancer and Technomancer abilities in the same turn.” However, that restriction does not appear in the description of regular Technomancer. It also does not appear in the new codex. It just says you add 1 to RP.
The ability says "In range of ANY <dynasty> crypteks", not in range of THIS cryptek, it's the same as the new wording for the ghost ark, the ghost ark used to target a unit and so it could be used twice as there was no limit against it, now it says in range of ANY and cant be stacked.
What makes the rating on Acanthrites so high? They cost more than Wraiths now, and lack an invulnerable save. I'm unsure of the best way to use them, but I see that they do a bit more damage on average than Tomb Sentinels -- comparing 6 Acanthrites to 2 Sentinels, which cost the same, and can both deep strike.
Drakmord wrote: What makes the rating on Acanthrites so high? They cost more than Wraiths now, and lack an invulnerable save. I'm unsure of the best way to use them, but I see that they do a bit more damage on average than Tomb Sentinels -- comparing 6 Acanthrites to 2 Sentinels, which cost the same, and can both deep strike.
Acanthrites can't deep strike, he is right in that they are kind of tomb blades with melta and power swords, however he is missing that they don't have reanimation by default, which on tough units like tomb blades that don't just vanish like warriors and immortals is quite good. The issue with them is that while tomb blades are great for their specific purpose in putting out alot of massed shots while being tough, we just have better anti tank units than acanthrites while tomb blades are best in their category.
personally I would rate these as a C, they CAN be useful but are pretty meh when you can just take a D Ark and sit and shoot.
I'm just trying to update the ratings as people suggest them.
Will try to adjust them via community consensus every day, if possible, until we settle on a final decision (still got some time until the codex actually comes out).
Meanwhile, as a thought experiment, I decided to see just how many CP Necrons could potentially take-
To maximize CP you would either take 1 brig + 1 batt + 1 outrider for 16 CP @ 1881 points, or 4x batt + 1 outrider for 16 CP at 1821. Obviously you could play around with the contents of each detachment with the leftover points, but the maximum CP remains the same.
Looks like it caps out at 16, no matter the combination.
Take into account MWBD and Lord reroll of 1s aura - those 2 combined increase Immortal damage by 75%, while not affecting Tomb blades at all.
Those buffs aren't free, you need to factor in their cost, as well as tomb blades having -1 to hit, AMAZING speed, and are actually durable enough for RP to be a thing, making them VERY resilient when buffed by a cloaktek
Drakmord wrote: What makes the rating on Acanthrites so high? They cost more than Wraiths now, and lack an invulnerable save. I'm unsure of the best way to use them, but I see that they do a bit more damage on average than Tomb Sentinels -- comparing 6 Acanthrites to 2 Sentinels, which cost the same, and can both deep strike.
Acanthrites can't deep strike, he is right in that they are kind of tomb blades with melta and power swords, however he is missing that they don't have reanimation by default, which on tough units like tomb blades that don't just vanish like warriors and immortals is quite good. The issue with them is that while tomb blades are great for their specific purpose in putting out alot of massed shots while being tough, we just have better anti tank units than acanthrites while tomb blades are best in their category.
personally I would rate these as a C, they CAN be useful but are pretty meh when you can just take a D Ark and sit and shoot.
Ah you're right, I forgot that Nephrekh is infantry and swarms only.
Drakmord wrote: What makes the rating on Acanthrites so high? They cost more than Wraiths now, and lack an invulnerable save. I'm unsure of the best way to use them, but I see that they do a bit more damage on average than Tomb Sentinels -- comparing 6 Acanthrites to 2 Sentinels, which cost the same, and can both deep strike.
Acanthrites can't deep strike, he is right in that they are kind of tomb blades with melta and power swords, however he is missing that they don't have reanimation by default, which on tough units like tomb blades that don't just vanish like warriors and immortals is quite good. The issue with them is that while tomb blades are great for their specific purpose in putting out alot of massed shots while being tough, we just have better anti tank units than acanthrites while tomb blades are best in their category.
personally I would rate these as a C, they CAN be useful but are pretty meh when you can just take a D Ark and sit and shoot.
This brings up a philosophical question about rating units regarding relative vs absolute value.
To make an analogy, imagine that you could get a space marine for 8 points a model... Amazing right? Those would be A++ rank!
Now imagine that you could get the exact same unit for 7 points a model... Now, how good are the 8 pt marines?
From one school of thought, they're still A++ rank because they're better than 99% of all other units. But from another school of thought, if there's a competitor unit that does the same thing better, they're F rank, because there's no use time you'd ever use the inferior unit. Some people think the latter, but I still think that tier lists should try to be objective instead of comparative.
To return back to the topic, Arcanthrites have been crowded out on both sides by DDAs and Wraiths. They're still strong at what they do; it's just that we don't need it so much. I don't think that merits a C, because if you ever are making your list and decided you really need jetbikes with meltas and powerswords strapped on to them, today's your lucky day because woooh boy are these A rank. In comparison, if you ever decide that you really need deep striking melee units, you should probably rethink your life or go Blood Angels before you pick up flayed ones.
Take into account MWBD and Lord reroll of 1s aura - those 2 combined increase Immortal damage by 75%, while not affecting Tomb blades at all.
Those buffs aren't free, you need to factor in their cost, as well as tomb blades having -1 to hit, AMAZING speed, and are actually durable enough for RP to be a thing, making them VERY resilient when buffed by a cloaktek
True. But most of time you still want those HQ and Troops choices in your army because you need CP. While the only HQ that is needed to Tomb blades as core of your army is cryptek, and spamming crypteks is not as viable - first gives your army +1 to protocol, others are wasted unless your army spread across the map.
I just want to tell that in theory without taking into account synergies and CP count Tomb blades are straight better than immortals. But you really should. I'm going to use 3x10 Tesla immortals and 0 tomb blades for those reasons - I need CP and want that my HQ buff someone doing their job.
skoffs wrote: Meanwhile, as a thought experiment, I decided to see just how many CP Necrons could potentially take
To maximize CP you would either take 1 brig + 1 batt + 1 outrider for 16 CP @ 1881 points, or 4x batt + 1 outrider for 16 CP at 1821. Obviously you could play around with the contents of each detachment with the leftover points, but the maximum CP remains the same.[/spoiler] Looks like it caps out at 16, no matter the combination.
Nice experiment, you could push it just a little more though, with those figures using the 4 batt + 1 outrider and the 179 points left upgrade 1 of the lords to immotek (179+76 > 200) for 1 more cp, then take the trait to get used ones back on 5 on top!
ArtyomTrityak wrote: I am not sure about warriors.
12pts per model, 4+ S4 AP-1. It does not sound very great.
I will try 3x20 for sure but do not think it is competitive.
Same for immortals. 17ppm 3+ S4 AP0.
10 of the is very easy to remove so no reanimation.
So i think our troops are sucks. So we need to play without troops
Necron infantry may look poor in stats for points, but they have an ace up their sleeve: Reanimation Protocols.
While RP is often overlooked and seen as kinda 'meh', it forces your opponents to shoot down the unit down to the last model. Yes there is morale, yes there is surrounding the remaining models. But those things can be overcome, especially with the new auto-pass morale warlord trait.
Imagine, if you will, several units of militarum tempestus that deep-struck into the enemy. The opponent will then make sure that as many models with Plasma guns go down as possible. He doesn't care if the sergeant or maybe several non-plasma gunners remain standing. Their threat level is cut down massively or maybe more important threats came up for your opponent to focus on.
But not so with Necron infantry. Sure, you can drop down a blob of 20 warriors and see 17 of them get hosed down. But oh look, on average 6-7 models get back up. They won't be too much of a threat as before, but they will get ánother round of RP the next turn.
This reminds me of a 2v1 match I played not too long ago. I had 2x20 Warriors supported by Illuminor Szeras and a Ghost Ark. On one turn, my opponents shot down 18 models of one unit down. Using the auto-pass morale strategem, I got 11! of them back. Mind you, that is a below-average RP for Szeras + Ghost Ark.
In my turn, I dropped my unit of Deathmarks and Veiled my Tesla Immortals up. With multiple new threats closing in, my opponents lost their focus on the Warrior squad and killed only 6. My turn again, 11 Warriors stood back up again.
This went on for the rest of the match. I think I had revived a total of 40-45 Warriors over the course of the match.
Were my opponents new and maybe a bit inexperienced in fighting Necrons? Perhaps.
My point is; the key to Necron infantry (or more specifically, Warrior blobs) is to make sure that they are a big enough threat (aka, rapid-fire range) so that they can't be ignored, but don't just suicide them in. Should they get focused down, it means another one of your important unit did not get targeted and can go in for the kill.
The codex offers plenty of new toys to help Warrior blobs out and make them either more survivable (auto-pass morale WL, Budget-Tek) or increase their threat level (Mephrit Dynasty Code and Strategem, Sautekh Strategem etc).
Overall, is it effective? Who knows, but I intend to find out. Silver Tide is my favourite Necron tactic so I'll be sure to report my experiences with them here.
Exactly this. We Have to use either immortals or warriors unless you are planning to run zero troops. So, I still think we have to think about the best way to use them.
1# Immortals are better than Warriors and TB is better than Immortals. TB is the new infantry?
2# The most effective way of getting the best units, Destroyers, TB and Scarabs to spam Outrider Detachments.
3# The Lord better than a Overlord when bubble wrapped by Warriors with a Cryptek?
4# Cheapest HQ still being useful for Outrider detachment is Cryptek w/SoL and Canoptek Cloak (85).
@ Red Acolyte
True, my bad. 10+5+5 would be not as good but for a detachment that is supposed to be in cover holding Obj. its probably good enough
@ Darkness Eternal
What Ridge said.
@ Q2.718
Why would T.TB be "A" in Sautekh?
I would think that for Mephrit with the AP-1 would be much more useful.
Sautekh is best for Gauss and Heavy, useless for Tesla.
@-Sentinel-
I agree to a point.
MWBD adds 50% but TLW only adds maybe 15%.
10 Immortals with MWBD and TLW would be getting 27 hits and rerolling 1 to wound. But even if the Overlord and Lord would have Hyperphase Swords the 10 immortals (170) + Overtlord (84+3) and Lord (73+3) would cost 333 pts.
That is the same as a 9 TB unit with Tesla, Shieldvanes and Nebulascope. The TB would still be getting 36 hits (not rerolling 1s though).
TB unit would have 18W. 10 Immortals are still less survivable as a unit with only 10 W, the Overlord and Lord could stand in front of the unit to draw fire and soak up 5+4W
The force projection of having high unit speed is incredibly valuable. I have never played TB but I would think that the speed may give them an opportunity to run if they get badly mauled so that they can hide, use RP and come back up in strength. Immortals can never outrun anything
So this is an early idea for something to build into. We've a few heavier vehicles and people that like playing with Magnus, Leviathan Dread's, multiple LRBT's mixed in with a few people that play a lot of dudes. So it's a generally mixed field and I'm looking for something that could drop into almost anyone.
Everything is Mephrit. Personally not a fan of mixing dynasties (because my painting OCD will kick in if they're not all different). Sitting at 7 CP, 6 if I decide to add a second relic (Nanoscarab to D-Lord, Veil to Overlord).
Spyder is there to fill points and babysit the DDA. It could be a 2nd cryptek, or with some minor rejigging (-1 scarab swarm base) Deathmarks or a small unit of Tomb Blades.
Most tournaments, leagues, and house rules prohibit spam vanguard(Spearhead/outrider) / spam patrol detachments, though.
Worth considering that aspect. Not RAW/RAI, and I don’t suggest going down the rabbit hole of each and every FLG rule permutation, but the major tournaments on the scene are relevant for competitive tactics discussion.
skoffs wrote: Meanwhile, as a thought experiment, I decided to see just how many CP Necrons could potentially take
To maximize CP you would either take 1 brig + 1 batt + 1 outrider for 16 CP @ 1881 points, or 4x batt + 1 outrider for 16 CP at 1821. Obviously you could play around with the contents of each detachment with the leftover points, but the maximum CP remains the same.[/spoiler] Looks like it caps out at 16, no matter the combination.
Nice experiment, you could push it just a little more though, with those figures using the 4 batt + 1 outrider and the 179 points left upgrade 1 of the lords to immotek (179+76 > 200) for 1 more cp, then take the trait to get used ones back on 5 on top!
Rottweiler wrote: Would you guys consider these statements true?
I agree to a point.
MWBD adds 50% but TLW only adds maybe 15%.
10 Immortals with MWBD and TLW would be getting 27 hits and rerolling 1 to wound. But even if the Overlord and Lord would have Hyperphase Swords the 10 immortals (170) + Overtlord (84+3) and Lord (73+3) would cost 333 pts.
That is the same as a 9 TB unit with Tesla, Shieldvanes and Nebulascope. The TB would still be getting 36 hits (not rerolling 1s though).
TB unit would have 18W. 10 Immortals are still less survivable as a unit with only 10 W, the Overlord and Lord could stand in front of the unit to draw fire and soak up 5+4W
I would compare them other way.
You can take 30 Immortals (510), Overlord (84+3), Lord (73+3) and cryptek (80) for total of 753 points and effective 4 CP (you gonna got those CP by forming another detach with cryptek - like with doomsday arks or destroyers\scarabs; but effectively points you spent on cryptek works with immortals)
Alternatively you can take Cloaktek (85), 2 per 9 tombblades (630) and 3 scarabs (39) for total of 744 points and 1 CP
Lets assume that 2 units of Immortals detach will benefit form MWBD whole game due to CP difference.
Damage output (against T4 MEQ):
Immortals - 30 + 30 + 20 hits, with rerolable 1s its 62 saves. With only single unit benefiting from MWBD its 70 hits, 54.5 saves
Tomb blades - 36 + 36 hits, 48 saves
So same points immortals do 13.5% - 29% more damage depends of whether you use stratagem for 2nd MWBD per turn. They also provide you 3 more CP. What is important, they might be teleported by character with cloak.
At the same time tomb blades are more mobile and more durable unit.
Thats what i say - tomb blades are not straight winners in this comparsion. They just do same job as immortals, with their pros and cons.
Few questions:
As Im still building and painting my Army. I haven't finished assembling my 2x GA/DDA, thinking of just making DDA as GA is redundant without Warriors.
When assembling the TB Im thinking of magnetizing, but isn't it possible to just mount the Tesla and the Gauss? Tesla on the side and Gauss on the front? Rules against it or is it bad form?
Which is really more effective DDA or Destroyers?
1x DDA would fire ~3.5 shots, hit with ~2.5 at S10 AP-5 Dd6 generating app 9W. Defense: 14W 4+/QS
4x Destroyers would fire 12 shots, hit ~9 at S6 AP-3 Dd3. Defense: 12W 3+
The destroyer units could be considered to have QS, as it will never loose more than 3W from one shot. The DDA has range advantage and if Sautekh some mobility as well.
If DDA is a part of the army then it should be in a group of 2-3 in Sautekh dynasty. Played aggressively with Crypteks with cloaks repairing (Living Metal) and maybe Destroyers being cover for the Crypteks?
Infantry gives most CP...
Infantry Battalion (+3CP) 758pts (Sautekh)
Spoiler:
Lord w/SoL (83)
Cryptek w/SoL and Chronometron (95)
20 Warriors (240)
10 Immortals (170)
10 Immortals (170)
"A model can only fire the doomsday cannon at high power if it remained stationary in its preceding Movement phase."
Sautekh does not suddenly make this go away.
But you can move and fire your heavy weapon without the -1 penality, and even advance, getting only -1 to hit for changing the heavy cannon to assault.
This has nothing to do with the weapon type. It is an additional restriction on the weapon that is not affected by the Sautekh dynastic code.
I know this does not change anything, but I am talking about the low profile in support of the flayer arrays, while closing to the enemy. I do not intend to make an immobile firebase out of them. Thats the reason I suggested Sautekh, because in my experience this is more usefull than ignoring the arrays and sitting in a corner all day long.
I'm sorry i only got up to page 10 before i couldn't take it. But when it comes to FO's did people just forget disruption fields? the +1 str 4->5 is MASSIVE compared to the 6->7 ShieldGuard could pottentially get. Now i'm not the best mathhammer person but someone was asking "what do you expect to hit with your FO's a fething Riptide?!" erm... yes?! 60 Str 5 Hits on 2s Shredding averages 4.6 W on a riptide vs 20 Str 7 Ap-3 attacks Hits on 2s Averages 4.1W (again assuming my math is correct, a DDA averages 2.7 because consistency) and this is JUST with MWD and Disruption Fields, and the gap gets wider vs T8 when both are wounding on 5s. If you actually BUILD around them with some support like for example Immotekh also giving them RR 1s and using MWD on perhaps a 2nd block.... and maybe a Veiled / Chrono cryptek that is delivering immothek and giving them a 5++
I'm not saying they're good or even fairly priced and YES shieldguard are tankier.... DUH?! On the other hand a cryptek isn't redundant with FO's. But i don't think you can call FO's trash and lychguard good in the same sentance. The biggest problem FO's have _IS_ delivery (ironically, they're innate deepstrike is prolly what makes them overcosted...) buuuut there is ghostwalk, there is Emergency / Enhanced invasion beams... a smarter person than me could prolly make them work but the thing i find with Necrons right now is they're like magic the puzzleing, "everything" relatively speaking is GOOD it's just a question of efficiently filling pts / detachments, you won't get to play with the entire toybox.... as far as assault goes you COULD drop Nemesor and 10 Shieldguard from a Night Scythe (during the enemies shooting phase prolly, ouch) , and _IF_ they live piggy back varguard with FO's onto him and have a cryptek with veil bring in a third unit. Or you could have 2 block of FO's use their natural deepstrike, piggyback in Immothek with a Veil Cryptek and have the Deceiver (and you've filled a vanguard at this points) hop in with Arankyr +/- some other units. Both these options would cost ~1300 pts.
Ofc that's if you even want to do assault army. Could go for MW spam with like 3 vaults.... or go for a sauthek battalion and a Spearhead of 3 transcendant c'than... (with the 2 powers a turn trait each). Or you could use a Spyder / Canoptek cloak Spearhead behind DDAs backed by a Outrider Scarab detachment. Or you could go with destroyers... etc etc etc Necrons are a little spoiled for choice right now. Biggest problem they have is that nobody likes them (as in no allies for psychic / screens and their models are expensive AF)
Rottweiler wrote: Would you guys consider these statements true?
I agree to a point.
MWBD adds 50% but TLW only adds maybe 15%.
10 Immortals with MWBD and TLW would be getting 27 hits and rerolling 1 to wound. But even if the Overlord and Lord would have Hyperphase Swords the 10 immortals (170) + Overtlord (84+3) and Lord (73+3) would cost 333 pts.
That is the same as a 9 TB unit with Tesla, Shieldvanes and Nebulascope. The TB would still be getting 36 hits (not rerolling 1s though).
TB unit would have 18W. 10 Immortals are still less survivable as a unit with only 10 W, the Overlord and Lord could stand in front of the unit to draw fire and soak up 5+4W
I would compare them other way.
You can take 30 Immortals (510), Overlord (84+3), Lord (73+3) and cryptek (80) for total of 753 points and effective 4 CP (you gonna got those CP by forming another detach with cryptek - like with doomsday arks or destroyers\scarabs; but effectively points you spent on cryptek works with immortals)
Alternatively you can take Cloaktek (85), 2 per 9 tombblades (630) and 3 scarabs (39) for total of 744 points and 1 CP
Lets assume that 2 units of Immortals detach will benefit form MWBD whole game due to CP difference.
Damage output (against T4 MEQ):
Immortals - 30 + 30 + 20 hits, with rerolable 1s its 62 saves. With only single unit benefiting from MWBD its 70 hits, 54.5 saves
Tomb blades - 36 + 36 hits, 48 saves
So same points immortals do 13.5% - 29% more damage depends of whether you use stratagem for 2nd MWBD per turn. They also provide you 3 more CP. What is important, they might be teleported by character with cloak.
At the same time tomb blades are more mobile and more durable unit.
Thats what i say - tomb blades are not straight winners in this comparsion. They just do same job as immortals, with their pros and cons.
I dont understand how you got 30+30+20 ?
I agree with:
one MWBD gives ~30+20+20 = 70 hits + TLW for reroll 1 to wound giving roughly ~54 saves.
TB 36+36 hits and 48 saves... NB: only ~9% less shooting for 80% more survivability and 180% mobility.
I dont know, but are you not really supporting MY point?
Getting 30 infantry and their HQ in the right position, remember its only 24" range (+5"move) on the target that you need/want to kill is much harder than getting TB with 24" range (+14"move). Projection of power! Getting the hits on the unit that you want dead instead of shooting the unit the enemy wants you to shoot. Also consider, if focused on and surviving the TB can disengage, move out of range and try to RP. Immortals can only hope to hide behind other infantry.
Like you can see in my post above, Immortals and Warriors are needed to hold objective and are very good fighting from cover. But unless the enemy is one big blob the TB and Destroyers can be mobile and moved to where they are needed.
I dont know, but are you not really supporting MY point?
If you pop stratagem that gives 2nd MWBD per turn you can get those 30 + 30 + 20
I might try cut immortals to 5 models per unit, taking unit of tombblades instead. Agreed that they provide much more threat projection. Just ATM I'm using Zandrekh + Obiron + 10 Warscythe lyches combo, which synergies with Immortals (already paid for support characters).
So evaluating my next purchases and really, really want an excuse to paint a Tesseract Vault. Anyone have list ideas for this unit? I was tinkering with a shenanigans list that uses Deceiver to bring it up close and personal early, along with some deep striking Destroyers and Veiling Immortals. Lots of pressure up close and early, which I think would catch people off guard with 'Crons.
skoffs wrote: Meanwhile, as a thought experiment, I decided to see just how many CP Necrons could potentially take
To maximize CP you would either take 1 brig + 1 batt + 1 outrider for 16 CP @ 1881 points, or 4x batt + 1 outrider for 16 CP at 1821. Obviously you could play around with the contents of each detachment with the leftover points, but the maximum CP remains the same.[/spoiler] Looks like it caps out at 16, no matter the combination.
Nice experiment, you could push it just a little more though, with those figures using the 4 batt + 1 outrider and the 179 points left upgrade 1 of the lords to immotek (179+76 > 200) for 1 more cp, then take the trait to get used ones back on 5 on top!
:O
N I C E
You seem to have forgotten that you can only take 3 detachments in an army.
I dont know, but are you not really supporting MY point?
If you pop stratagem that gives 2nd MWBD per turn you can get those 30 + 30 + 20
I might try cut immortals to 5 models per unit, taking unit of tombblades instead. Agreed that they provide much more threat projection. Just ATM I'm using Zandrekh + Obiron + 10 Warscythe lyches combo, which synergies with Immortals (already paid for support characters).
Ok, CP come at a premium. In the aforementioned example using 1CP the TB using "talent for Annihilation" would get 6 more hits and 4 more wounds resulting in 52 saves vs 54 Immortal saves Nebulascope is 18pts and gives free Solar Pulse for the unit every turn.
Both are nice units, TB maybe a little more versatile. Wouldn't a fast moving unit be more supportive of deepstriking/ghostwalking shenanigans?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
poweroftwo wrote: I'm sorry i only got up to page 10 before i couldn't take it. But when it comes to FO's did people just forget disruption fields? the +1 str 4->5 is MASSIVE compared to the 6->7 ShieldGuard could pottentially get. Now i'm not the best mathhammer person but someone was asking "what do you expect to hit with your FO's a fething Riptide?!" erm... yes?! 60 Str 5 Hits on 2s Shredding averages 4.6 W on a riptide vs 20 Str 7 Ap-3 attacks Hits on 2s Averages 4.1W (again assuming my math is correct, a DDA averages 2.7 because consistency) and this is JUST with MWD and Disruption Fields, and the gap gets wider vs T8 when both are wounding on 5s. If you actually BUILD around them with some support like for example Immotekh also giving them RR 1s and using MWD on perhaps a 2nd block.... and maybe a Veiled / Chrono cryptek that is delivering immothek and giving them a 5++
I'm not saying they're good or even fairly priced and YES shieldguard are tankier.... DUH?! On the other hand a cryptek isn't redundant with FO's. But i don't think you can call FO's trash and lychguard good in the same sentance. The biggest problem FO's have _IS_ delivery (ironically, they're innate deepstrike is prolly what makes them overcosted...) buuuut there is ghostwalk, there is Emergency / Enhanced invasion beams... a smarter person than me could prolly make them work but the thing i find with Necrons right now is they're like magic the puzzleing, "everything" relatively speaking is GOOD it's just a question of efficiently filling pts / detachments, you won't get to play with the entire toybox.... as far as assault goes you COULD drop Nemesor and 10 Shieldguard from a Night Scythe (during the enemies shooting phase prolly, ouch) , and _IF_ they live piggy back varguard with FO's onto him and have a cryptek with veil bring in a third unit. Or you could have 2 block of FO's use their natural deepstrike, piggyback in Immothek with a Veil Cryptek and have the Deceiver (and you've filled a vanguard at this points) hop in with Arankyr +/- some other units. Both these options would cost ~1300 pts.
Ofc that's if you even want to do assault army. Could go for MW spam with like 3 vaults.... or go for a sauthek battalion and a Spearhead of 3 transcendant c'than... (with the 2 powers a turn trait each). Or you could use a Spyder / Canoptek cloak Spearhead behind DDAs backed by a Outrider Scarab detachment. Or you could go with destroyers... etc etc etc Necrons are a little spoiled for choice right now. Biggest problem they have is that nobody likes them (as in no allies for psychic / screens and their models are expensive AF)
I have 5 Lychguard models and plan on building them with Sword & Board. Honestly Dispersion Shields should be 8pts, Lychguard with sword&board costing the same as with Warscythe, making the choice being 4++ (and Stratagem) vs S+1 AP-1 D+1. Despite the Stratagem, isnt the Lychguard just asa good with Warscythe and Cryptek (5++)? Which would do most damage in a game. 10 Lychguard, 9 TB or 6 Destroyers? What would survive best? Maybe unfair comparison?
Lychguard (Sword&Board) vs Wraith (w/Particle caster)... Infantry vs Wraith form 5" vs 12" 20W vs 18W 20 AP-3 D1 vs 18 AP-2 D2 Save 3+/4++ vs 4+/3++ Shield can shoot back vs 12" 1 S6 AP0 D1 (Fall back shoot & charge every turn) Unit 340pts vs 354
Wraith is better... I hate it and I dont have any Wraiths but I guess I need 2x Forgebane boxes...
Sautekh Wraith with T.Beamer... Fall back, shoot and charge every turn. Whoot. 12" ~8 hits S4 AP-3 D1 probably resulting in 4 extra wounds every turn.
I dont have much faith in FO. Deepstriking 20 FO 9" away from enemy. If charge is failed, get shot and loose some models? Enemy moves back away from FO next movement and focus fire on FO, remaining FO flee... Its not easy. Maybe best role for them as a mob to defend Monolith etc against CC? Or as a cheap 85pts objective capture/hold unit? But Deathmarks 95pts work as well considering they can shoot. But ultimatly Scarabs do this cheaper than both. If only Scarabs, FO and Deathmarks were infantry
Maybe with a Silver tide formation the Lychguard can act as a "shield" for the Warriors/Immortals? Moving out in front to take some hits then fall back to RP? Maybe their ultimate role is as an deterrant against being charged? Ofc. they can take the hits if Characters are being sniped.
I only have 4 Destroyers (3 normal, 1 H.D), so destroyer spam is not possible for me just now. Here is my first list. Ordered forgebane and more destroyers.
CCB (Warlord-Reroll CP'S) Gauss+SoL (168)
Cryptek SoL+Cloak (85) (not a must, comes for RP for Destroyers, if I have 2 groups of full destroyers he will be better)
3 Destroyers+1 H.Destroyer (207) (more in buy list)
3 Scarabs (39) (After buying more destroyers merging scarabs)
3 Scarabs (39)
1 DDA (193) (i have one more but no points left. may be take one wraith less to get 1 dda)
ibrahimerol wrote: I only have 4 Destroyers (3 normal, 1 H.D), so destroyer spam is not possible for me just now. Here is my first list. Ordered forgebane and more destroyers.
CCB (Warlord-Reroll CP'S) Gauss+SoL (168)
Cryptek SoL+Cloak (85) (not a must, comes for RP for Destroyers, if I have 2 groups of full destroyers he will be better)
3 Destroyers+1 H.Destroyer (207) (more in buy list)
3 Scarabs (39) (After buying more destroyers merging scarabs)
3 Scarabs (39)
1 DDA (193) (i have one more but no points left. may be take one wraith less to get 1 dda)
skoffs wrote: Meanwhile, as a thought experiment, I decided to see just how many CP Necrons could potentially take
To maximize CP you would either take 1 brig + 1 batt + 1 outrider for 16 CP @ 1881 points, or 4x batt + 1 outrider for 16 CP at 1821. Obviously you could play around with the contents of each detachment with the leftover points, but the maximum CP remains the same.[/spoiler] Looks like it caps out at 16, no matter the combination.
Nice experiment, you could push it just a little more though, with those figures using the 4 batt + 1 outrider and the 179 points left upgrade 1 of the lords to immotek (179+76 > 200) for 1 more cp, then take the trait to get used ones back on 5 on top!
:O
N I C E
You seem to have forgotten that you can only take 3 detachments in an army.
Hmm, for real?
It's not a scenario that's ever come up for me before.
For reference, where does it talk about that part in the rulebook?
ibrahimerol wrote: I only have 4 Destroyers (3 normal, 1 H.D), so destroyer spam is not possible for me just now. Here is my first list. Ordered forgebane and more destroyers.
CCB (Warlord-Reroll CP'S) Gauss+SoL (168)
Cryptek SoL+Cloak (85) (not a must, comes for RP for Destroyers, if I have 2 groups of full destroyers he will be better)
3 Destroyers+1 H.Destroyer (207) (more in buy list)
3 Scarabs (39) (After buying more destroyers merging scarabs)
3 Scarabs (39)
1 DDA (193) (i have one more but no points left. may be take one wraith less to get 1 dda)
TOTAL POINTS - 1,997 TOTAL COMMAND POINTS - 9 (Battle Forged [3], Battalion [3], Outrider [1], Spearhead [1], Imotekh [1])
Ideally we'd set up the troops up front, Warriors up front with Immortals right behind, with Imotekh and Chronotek mixed in. Imotekh gives MWBD to both Tesla Immortals. Cryptek from Spearhead also comes along, stacking Technomancer. This gives both our Immortals a big buff, and with dual Crypteks, some really solid RP that will make the opponent worry. The Outrider detachment will have its Cryptek use the Veil to pull the Destroyers wherever we need them to take out a priority target. Tomb Blades are for general attack & objective. Scarabs are just there. I guess they can hold something. Finally, the Spearhead detachment will drop 3 DDA's on the back line for heavy support across the map.
The biggest decisions I'm having problems with are what Dynasties to use. Originally I had the Outrider set to Nephrekh for the movement benefits, but I felt that the Destroyers being able to shoot without penalty was more beneficial, so I put them in Sautekh as well. As for the Spearhead, I had them set to Nihilakh to give the DDA's rerolls on 1, but that left the Cryptek utterly useless, as his abilities would only target Nihilakh infantry, which there was none of. Thus I moved them all back to Sautekh.
Thoughts? Comments? Whispers of sweet nothings?
I would drop one of the cryptecs, make the warrior block 19 (for ITC mission style) and get some more scarabs. Get rid of this Cryptek (SoL, Canoptek Cloak) - 85pts; 5 warriors and 1 more scarab. Maybe even drop the 3rd cryptec for another unit of scarabs. If you are building a tourney list you need to have those troops to grab/contest objectives, and your core army of warriors and immortals will likely be blobbed around your HQ as a fire base.
I dont have much faith in FO.
Deepstriking 20 FO 9" away from enemy. If charge is failed, get shot and loose some models? Enemy moves back away from FO next movement and focus fire on FO, remaining FO flee... Its not easy.
Maybe best role for them as a mob to defend Monolith etc against CC? Or as a cheap 85pts objective capture/hold unit? But Deathmarks 95pts work as well considering they can shoot. But ultimatly Scarabs do this cheaper than both. If only Scarabs, FO and Deathmarks were infantry
Maybe with a Silver tide formation the Lychguard can act as a "shield" for the Warriors/Immortals? Moving out in front to take some hits then fall back to RP? Maybe their ultimate role is as an deterrant against being charged? Ofc. they can take the hits if Characters are being sniped.
Well yeah in brief i was pointing out the the problem with FO's IS crossing your fingers and hoping for an 8" but that they're killier than ShieldGuard even against big bad bastards not just chaff... if your only delivery plan is deep striking then... yes don't take FO's
Well yeah in brief i was pointing out the the problem with FO's IS crossing your fingers and hoping for an 8" but that they're killier than ShieldGuard even against big bad bastards not just chaff... if your only delivery plan is deep striking then... yes don't take FO's
Yes, you get exacly 20 FO (17) for 10 Lychguards with Sword and board (34). 20 FO vs 10 Lychguard 60 S4 AP0 D1 vs 20 S6 AP-3 D1 20W vs 20W 4+ vs 3+/4++
Lychguard, the coolest CC model IMHO is probably, point for point, the worst CC specialist in the Necron Army.
10 Praetorians vs 10 Lychguard 10" vs 5" 30 S5 AP-3 D1 vs 20 S6 AP-3 D1 3+ vs 3+/4++ 320 pts vs 340 pts Pistol, Fly and Unshakable vs Dispersion Field Stratagem (-1CP) Pratorians better without HQ support.
26 Scarabs vs 10 Lychguard 10" vs 5" 17 saves AP0 vs 7 saves with AP-3 (against T4) 78W vs 20W 6+ vs 3+/4++ 338 vs 340
Gets beaten by Scarabs
Another example: Wraithblades cost 1 point more than Lychguard. Wraithblades get +1T, +1W, +1A, (and extra +1A on charging) and -1Ld. Lychguard get 4++.
Hmm, not that it would be particularly good, or competitive, but this does make me wonder what Destroyer Spam would look like. I'm still not used to this whole 8th edition way of making lists with Detachments...
I remember in the old days we used to run 15 Regular and 9 Heavies, but I don't recall if that was 2000 point lists or if it was more.
Hmm, not that it would be particularly good, or competitive, but this does make me wonder what Destroyer Spam would look like. I'm still not used to this whole 8th edition way of making lists with Detachments...
I remember in the old days we used to run 15 Regular and 9 Heavies, but I don't recall if that was 2000 point lists or if it was more.
I don't remember advocating for Destroyer spam in this thread (I'm more in the "every list should have at least one unit of them" camp),
buuuuut six units of 6 comes to 1800. Upgrade a bunch of the units to have a Heavy, throw in a Destroyer Lord with the remaining points, and you'd have yourself a legal Outrider detachment.
Would it be good? Probably not, but if anyone's got 37 Destroyer models and wants to take it for a spin, might as well give it a try.
Hmm, not that it would be particularly good, or competitive, but this does make me wonder what Destroyer Spam would look like. I'm still not used to this whole 8th edition way of making lists with Detachments...
I remember in the old days we used to run 15 Regular and 9 Heavies, but I don't recall if that was 2000 point lists or if it was more.
I've done that in 4th at 1750 points. It was hard but it was pretty effective as long as you had supplementing Immortals at the time.
I don't recall my exact competitive list though. Maybe my storage unit here in Cali has my old codex and therefore my old notes.
Hmm, not that it would be particularly good, or competitive, but this does make me wonder what Destroyer Spam would look like. I'm still not used to this whole 8th edition way of making lists with Detachments...
I remember in the old days we used to run 15 Regular and 9 Heavies, but I don't recall if that was 2000 point lists or if it was more.
I don't remember advocating for Destroyer spam in this thread (I'm more in the "every list should have at least one unit of them" camp),
buuuuut six units of 6 comes to 1800. Upgrade a bunch of the units to have a Heavy, throw in a Destroyer Lord with the remaining points, and you'd have yourself a legal Outrider detachment.
Would it be good? Probably not, but if anyone's got 37 Destroyer models and wants to take it for a spin, might as well give it a try.
My out of context quote was certainly misleading to say the least and you didn't actually say it (I messed up the quote tag), my bad.
It was just out of curiosity, not a serious consideration. I only have 24 Destroyers anyway and one lost it's arm,
So, more realistically, perhaps like 3 units of 6 could be more reasonable? Might be something I'd try out, once I fix all the ones that are currently broken.
Anyone with any ideas on what to do with 5 Monoliths though?
buuuuut six units of 6 comes to 1800. Upgrade a bunch of the units to have a Heavy, throw in a Destroyer Lord with the remaining points, and you'd have yourself a legal Outrider detachment. Would it be good? Probably not, but if anyone's got 37 Destroyer models and wants to take it for a spin, might as well give it a try.
Save 1-2CP for Resurection Protocols for the DLord and possibly to reroll? The remaining 2CP for Translocation Crypt (1CP: Deepstrike) to deepstrike 2 units. Only Deploying 1 Character and 4 units, likely to get initiative. Other viable Stratagems: Extermination Protocols (1CP: reroll failed hit/wound), Solar Pulse (1CP: Ignore cover) or enhanced reanimation Protocols (1CP: reroll 1s).
DLord w/Solar Staff (Assault 6 AP-3 D1 and 50% chance to blind), Phylactery and "Skin of living Gold"-1 to hit. (130pts)
Easy army to build? 12 boxes with 3 Destroyers (30£) 360£ 6 boxes heavy Destroyer upgrade pack (5£) 30£ 1 box with Destroyer 12,50£ 1 box of Destroyer Lord upgrade pack 7£ Chaos Black Spray 10,40£ Necon compound 2,55£ Total price 422.5£
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: So what are we thinking is the best weapons for Wraiths? Are whip coils still useless?
Really depends on Dynasty. Sautekh would make T. beamer useful (no minus to hit with heavy weapon). But Novokh is maybe better (and cheaper) with reroll failed to hit in CC and with P. caster for a cheap setup with some nice shooting as you get to fall back, shoot and charge every turn. Also for 3CP you get an extra CC phase (too expensive tbh).
Whip coils would maybe be viable if they were cheaper ~5 and could be taken with a gun. Honestly, what is the chance of dying to ranged attack vs CC attack? 50/50? Then there is a 50% chance that you get to get 3 extra CC attacks. Shooting attacks you get every turn (when in range) and P. caster is only 4 pts vs 9 pts for the W.coils.
I have infrantry list with cryptek and overlord. I think about artifact. Veil is auto include? Its worth to take second? I think about voidreaper or voltaic staff.
I still say Gauss is better for TBs. While you don't get the extra shots, having reliable AP means more models will die, and more importantly, you have a wider variety of valid targets.
One could argue using Dynasty codes to make the Tesla have better AP, but the counter argument would be that those same codes also improve the Guass Blasters.
Galef wrote: I still say Gauss is better for TBs. While you don't get the extra shots, having reliable AP means more models will die, and more importantly, you have a wider variety of valid targets.
One could argue using Dynasty codes to make the Tesla have better AP, but the counter argument would be that those same codes also improve the Guass Blasters.
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The question becomes: at what point is too much AP overkill? AP-2 already ignores all chaff units and puts Scout equivalents to a 6+. Is ignoring 4+ (or 5+ in cover) better than getting the extra shots from Tesla procs? People have run the numbers and I'm pretty sure Tesla wins out against many armor values. However, if you're using TBs to chase down more heavily armored units, Gauss is useful.
In the current meta (tournament wide, not your local), hordes are a real thing. Guard, Termagants/Hormagaunts, Guardian blobs, and Cultists/Zombies are quite common. 2+ units like Terminators? Not so much.
Ill quote: "Tesla is better between 12" and 24" unless the enemy has a 2+ save, and within 12" for anything with a 6+ or 7+ save or an invulnerable one "
With Mephrit the above would be "...and within 12" for anything with a 5+, 6+ or 7+ save or an invulnerable one"
Gauss TB going inside 12" of anything that can charge them will probably do so and hurt them. Tesla TB, especially Mephrit with AP-1, would get so many overwatch shots that it would be very expensive to charge them.
If you get lucky and the attacker fails a charge or you kill the unit, would he charge again? Even if someone manages to charge the TB, as a flying unit the TB can use RP, fall back out of CC and shoot. MWBD is useless for overwatch. Immortals cannot fall back and shoot...
On the Gauss vs Tesla discussion it depends a lot on the opponent, however. I think TB with Tesla would be better in general, especially with Mephrit Dynasty and risking going inside 12". Tesla is more of a deterrent from charging and Gauss fails outside of 12 tbh. Also TB is worse than Destroyers in CC. TB+Mephrit+Tesla = Overwatch 18 hits S5 AP-1 D1 TB+Mephrit+Gauss= Overwatch 6 hits S5 AP-3 D1 If not taking TB with Tesla maybe take Destroyers instead.
7th edition codex has not been legal for 8th edition. Because they're different editions.
Since Index Xenos 1, which had the Necron rules, Tesla Carbines have been Assault 2. For the entirety of 8th edtion (hence 'all edition') Tesla Carbines have been Assault 2.
So what dynasty do you guys think benefits the forgebane box the most? I am debating even making the lychguard, maybe make them also more immortals, it's not like the box doesn't have the alternative weapons. Or maybe 5 deathmasks and 5 immortals? So many options.
The only way (imo) to run Lychguard is 10 in a Night Scythe, preferrably with a redundancy Scythe or Monolith. And then they'd be like C+ rank at best.
Requizen wrote: The only way (imo) to run Lychguard is 10 in a Night Scythe, preferrably with a redundancy Scythe or Monolith. And then they'd be like C+ rank at best.
Requizen wrote: The only way (imo) to run Lychguard is 10 in a Night Scythe, preferrably with a redundancy Scythe or Monolith. And then they'd be like C+ rank at best.
Why redundancy? They are 100% safe with 1CP.
Unless they completely surround the Night Scythe. If they surround it and keep it alive, you can't drop off the Lychguard. If they surround it and kill it, then you have nowhere to drop and they just die.
Requizen wrote: The only way (imo) to run Lychguard is 10 in a Night Scythe, preferrably with a redundancy Scythe or Monolith. And then they'd be like C+ rank at best.
Why redundancy? They are 100% safe with 1CP.
Unless they completely surround the Night Scythe. If they surround it and keep it alive, you can't drop off the Lychguard. If they surround it and kill it, then you have nowhere to drop and they just die.
That seems a bit unlikely, given the size of the base and how far they move in a turn.
Requizen wrote: The only way (imo) to run Lychguard is 10 in a Night Scythe, preferrably with a redundancy Scythe or Monolith. And then they'd be like C+ rank at best.
Why redundancy? They are 100% safe with 1CP.
Unless they completely surround the Night Scythe. If they surround it and keep it alive, you can't drop off the Lychguard. If they surround it and kill it, then you have nowhere to drop and they just die.
That seems a bit unlikely, given the size of the base and how far they move in a turn.
It does, but Genestealers with a Swarmlord can move something silly like 23" per turn on average, and Shining Spears can Advance and Charge a Scythe since they Fly. It's not impossible for Jump Pack Death Company or Sanguinary Guard to surround and pop it either. Heck, Nephrekh Wraiths/Scarabs can surround it with ease if you move it towards the middle of the board.
It won't happen every game, but it's far from impossible.
Kuguar6 wrote: I have infrantry list with cryptek and overlord. I think about artifact. Veil is auto include? Its worth to take second? I think about voidreaper or voltaic staff.
Promote my question. What do you think about artifact? Especjally about weapons. Are they worth 1 CP or 2 CP for third?
Kuguar6 wrote: I have infrantry list with cryptek and overlord. I think about artifact. Veil is auto include? Its worth to take second? I think about voidreaper or voltaic staff.
Promote my question. What do you think about artifact? Especjally about weapons. Are they worth 1 CP or 2 CP for third?
Depends on the rest of the list and how you want to play. Teleporting 20 Warriors with Veil is pretty much always going to be a good idea, it seems to be the best Relic in the book.
Since we don't really have any beatstick characters (only 4 attacks at most on the DLord, 3 or less on everyone else), melee weapons feel a bit ambitious. And we don't really want our characters standing on the front lines, so defensive ones might be a bit wasted depending on what you're facing. I think overall using support Relics (Veil, as the Orb is only so-so) or ranged weapons is best.
When in doubt, I would default to Veil. If you are Mephrit or Nephrekh, consider their guns, I suppose, but again it really depends on who it goes on and what the army looks like.
Kuguar6 wrote: I have infrantry list with cryptek and overlord. I think about artifact. Veil is auto include? Its worth to take second? I think about voidreaper or voltaic staff.
Promote my question. What do you think about artifact? Especjally about weapons. Are they worth 1 CP or 2 CP for third?
How is the army?
You would want the artifact to enhance the role of the Overlord/Cryptek for the army.
Veil is not auto include, does it enhance the army and its mission/goal.
I dont think 1 artifact is worth 2 CP unless it serves a very specific and important role.
Kuguar6 wrote: I have infrantry list with cryptek and overlord. I think about artifact. Veil is auto include? Its worth to take second? I think about voidreaper or voltaic staff.
Promote my question. What do you think about artifact? Especjally about weapons. Are they worth 1 CP or 2 CP for third?
How is the army?
You would want the artifact to enhance the role of the Overlord/Cryptek for the army.
Veil is not auto include, does it enhance the army and its mission/goal.
I dont think 1 artifact is worth 2 CP unless it serves a very specific and important role.
1 Artifact is free though. Its when you want to have a second or even third artifact that you start paying CP.
There's really no reason to not take an artifact.
Requizen wrote: The only way (imo) to run Lychguard is 10 in a Night Scythe, preferrably with a redundancy Scythe or Monolith. And then they'd be like C+ rank at best.
Why redundancy? They are 100% safe with 1CP.
Unless they completely surround the Night Scythe. If they surround it and keep it alive, you can't drop off the Lychguard. If they surround it and kill it, then you have nowhere to drop and they just die.
That seems a bit unlikely, given the size of the base and how far they move in a turn.
Not to mention people act like the Monolith doesn't have 18 good shots (plus any other units you range with) to use to clear that unit surrounding it.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Toss my question back out there - list ideas for the Tesseract Vault? I was thinking about using Deceiver to bring it up to the enemy.
Any other ideas? thoughts? etc
That's a good question i'd also like to know the answer to, people have been drolling over the vault buuuut i'm not fully convinced it's a GIANT fething bullseye wich while durable also is a mid range unit. All of its "guns" , both traditional and essotheric are 18-24" range. You COULD deliver it with a deceiver into optimum range (holly hell i think i found the new distraction carnifex =)) ) and tbh probably should but that's... pricey, really pricey. The sad part is well... and elite and a LoW now what detachment would really like thoo... OW YEAH Supreme Command. Ofc the problem is necrons don't really have cheap throwaway HQs to stick in SupComm.... i dono i like the model but i think it might be abit of a trap... testing required.
Come to think of it... Arankyr, him and the vault are perfect deciver targes... ok so new were looking into an assault list.... god dammit now i have stich a list together.... here!
I went more fun than optimal with the SupCom HQ's buuuut plonking the thing next to an obj and using Reclaim the lost empire for 3++ is.. interesting , in my mind at least.... Realistically Arankyr Should probably be replaced by Illuminor Szeras but i kinda slapped the list together in 5 minutes.. he is an extra MWBD so between him and the OL all 3 immortals would have it... Trollzyn is there because Reclaim the Lost Empire poped into my head and well... he's 7 pts more than a OL c'mon... it's trollzyn.
Named characters cannot get Artifacts!!!
1st is Free, 2nd costs 1CP, 3rd cost 2CP.
- Nightmare Shroud: +1 save characteristic, enemies get -1 Ld within 6"
"C" Can lower saves for the Overlord to 2+, better choices available.
- Orb of Eternity: Replaces Res Orb. +1 to the result.
"B" Even if you spend 1CP to get this you still get a better result than from "Enhanced Reanimation Protocol" Stratagem that costs 2CP.
- Gauntlet of Conflagrator: One use only. 8" Pistol 1. Roll a D6 for each model in the target unit within 8". MW on each roll of 6.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voidreaper: Replaces War/Voidscythe. Wounds on 2+ unless targeting vehicles, in which case it has S7. (AP -4, D3)
"B" Very good CC weapon, but do you want to be in CC?
- Veil of Darkness: Bearer and 1 dynasty infantry unit within 3" are removed and can deepstrike 9" away from enemy (unit must be within 6" of bearer)
"A" Maybe the best default Artifact available, gives much needed mobility, good on bubble wrapped characters like Lord or even a Cryptek if the Overlord has a Artifact.
- Lightning Field: 4++. Roll a D6 for enemy units within 1" of the bearer at the start of the fight phase. A MW on 4+
"C" Overlords have a 4++, Cryptek and Lords are really too weak for CC.
"A" The best upgrade for a CCB as it has no invulnerable save. CCB has the largest base so most likely to benefit from the "at the start of fight phase" MW on 4+ roll on all models within 1", its a flyer so flying over and positioning to maximize potential targets is advisable.
- Nanoscarab Casket. Replaces Phylactery. Regains D3 rather than 1, during both your and opponents turn. First time bearer is slain, on 4+ he is set back up at tend of phase, with D6 wounds remaining.
"A" Exellent choice for the (only unnamed character with Phylactery) Destroyer. Doubles the wound regeneration and gives a free enhanced "Resurrection Protocol" stratagem worth 1CP with D6 wounds instead of 1 wound. Can be resurrected a second time by "Resurrection Protocol" for 1CP.
- Sempiternal Weave. Infantry only. +1T and +1W.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voltaic Staff. Mephrit Relic. Repalces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 3 S6 AP3 D2 / User AP2 D1
"B" Good against multi wound, a wound roll of 6+ gives extra MW "A" Combined with Warlord trait "Merciless Tyrant" increases range by 6" to 18" and may target a Character! Especially good on a Destroyer Lord as he gets to re-roll to hit and to wound, increasing the chance of rolling 6+ wound for MW.
- Blood Scythe. Novokh Relic. Replaces War/Voidscythe. +2 S, AP-4, D2, +D3 Attacks.
"B" A good choice for a CC Character.
- Abyssal Staff. Sauthek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 1. Hits automatically, roll 3D6 if a unit is hit in the shooting phase: equal or greater than LD and unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. (AP-2 D1 in melee)
"C" Weak, should be called the Abysmal Staff. (Honestly should have been a D6MW and then a "B").
- The Solar Staff. Nephrek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 6, S5 AP3 D1 / AP2 D1. If enemy infantry is hit in shooting phase,on 4+ they are blinded and cannot overwatch and suffers -1 to hit for rest of turn.
"B" Good for a shooty Character.
- Timesplinter Cloak. Nihilak Relic. Once per battle, re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll, or damage roll for the bearer. 5+++.
"A" Fantastic, essentially one Free reroll worth 1 CP and a FNP 5+++
My opponents list consisted of 2x Coldstar Commanders, 3x basic Fire Warrior squad, a Riptide, 2x Broadsides, a flyer and a Hammerhead. Plenty of drones and Markerlight units in between.
It was Hammer & deployment, I had three objective Markers pretty much in or close to my deployment zone.
With a lucky Seize I managed to get first turn!
Turn 1: Immortals with Imothekh slowly moved up the board, securing an objective marker. Had to be very careful to bubblewrap Imotekh around the Immortals, or else a Coldstar Commander could land right next to him and blow him up.
I decided to MWBD + Veil the Destroyers to get rid of either the Broadsides or the Riptide ASAP. This was a big mistake. While the Destroyer bomb was effective, it left the Gauss Immortals to do nothing for pretty much the rest of the match.
Either way, it was time for the shooting phase.
I started with Imothekh's Storm; who did a grant total of 9 Mortal Wounds spread out over several targets. It's great when your opponent has a big, important unit standing in the middle, means a larger AoE effect for the Storm.
One DDA did 10 wounds to a Riptide, thanks to my opponent failing two drone 'lookout sire's'. But boy are those annoying did I find out later.
The other DDA brought one Broadside down to one wound.
Then the Destroyers came in. With MWBD + their Strategem, they did a grand total of 13 wounds to the Riptide. Sounds good, but I should have split-fired a bit and gotten the wounded Broadside as well.
Opponents turn 1: The Tau retaliate with great force. Combined fire from the Fire Warriors, Cold Star Commanders and the Broadsides brought down the Destroyers. The Hammerhead managed to do 8 wounds to a DDA, which would have been dead were it not for the Quantum Deflection stratagem.
My turn 2: Imotekh and the Tesla Immortals moved up again, they were now in range along with the Tomb Blades.
Gauss Immortals stayed put, they took a beating from the enemy flyer dropping bombs on them.
Shooting:
One DDA one-shotted the flyer.
The other DDA wiffed and did nothing.
Then came the grand idea behind a large part of the list; using the Sautekh stratagem with all the Tesla I had in my list.
The problem was.... it required me to do an unsaved wound! With the DDA missing his shots, the Tesla units now had to deal a wound themselves.
Whiiiich brought me to AP0 vs a 2+ save..... yea. Nothing happened.
Enemy turn 2: The Fire Warriors and Commanders moved up, confident they could take my Immortals and Tomb Blades out. Fire from the Warriors, Broadside and Commanders finished of the Tomb Blades and one squad of Immortals.
Tau just do not care about you being in cover. Smart Missile Systems and plenty of Markerlights is just a big FU to cover.
My turn 3: With what little is left, Imothekh and the Overlord decided to retreat to try and hold as many objectives as possible.
The other Immortal squad, now restored to their original numbers, moved up along an empty flank to try and secure another objective.
Shooting:
A DDA one-shotted the Hammerhead.
The other DDA landed some shots on the Broadside, but those were intercepted by the last remaining drones.
Opponents turn 3: Everything moved up, one Coldstar Commander took out the Gauss Immortals. The other ColdStar + the Broadside managed to do only 4 wounds to a DDA, once again thanks to
Quantum Overload.
At this point the owner of the FLGS wanted to close, so we called it.
Final score: 11 to 7.
Post-match thoughts:
While the match went ok, I felt like I made some big mistakes during the match. That along with several units in my army not working as I wanted them to.
Mistakes: -Why did I rush in so quickly with the Veil'd Destroyers? My opponent's optimal range was 36" and I held three objective markers in my deployment zone. I should have stayed put turn one and let him come to me thanks to the range of the DDA's.
-Another big mistake was greedily Veiling in the Destroyers, leaving the Gauss Immortals to pick their noses in my deployment zone. I should have Veiled them up and simply used the Destroyers superior mobility to make use of both units.
-The 'Enchanced RP' is such a trap stratagem. Yes I got CP's back thanks to the Sautekh WL, but even when 7 Immortals are dead it simply isn't worth it.
-While the Sautekh Strategem sounds awesome, it can sometimes be more difficult to land that one unsaved wound on a priority target than it may seem!
-More specifically against Tau: Get those pesky drones! So many D3 or D6dmg shots from my Destroyers or DDA's were absorbed by them.
Weak units in the list:
-Min Tesla Immortal squads. Such a waste of MWBD and too easily shot of the table. Even the 'save' 24" range of Tesla us usually not enough to keep them away from your opponents guns.
-6x Tomb Blades /w Tesla. Again, I felt like a big unit of 9 would have lived through focus fire.
And the fact they they had Tesla weapons just made them do..... nothing. No AP is just killing. A full squad of 9 with Gauss Blasters, played way more aggressively would have done a lot better.
But, not all is bad though! Here are the positive parts of the army:
-Destroyer bomb. Unsurprisingly, their damage output is absolutely nuts. Even against tough units which you wound on 5+, the re-roll to wound plus their high AP makes them a threat to any enemy unit.
-DDA. By far my MVP's of the match, often blowing up one big unit per turn. They did however, eat through my CP like cotton candy. While I could afford it with 7 CP + Sautekh WL, they often require a re-roll for the D6 shots or the Quantum Deflection stratagem.
Final thoughts:
Imothek the Storm Lord. I'm not sure what to make of him. Yes him bringing an extra CP is nice, and his WL is great. And I also landed a nice Storm which might make me a bit biased. But his MWBD targets just did nothing, leaving him kind of useless just hanging out with them.
Can't draw any conclusions on him yet, but I'll definitely give him another go!
JNAProductions wrote: Not much reworking needed. Take that as Land Raider math, then.
490/216, or 2.27 damage, about.
Does drop it to only four Heavy Destroyers needed to one-round a Rhino 50% of the time.
That's surprisingly not too bad considering how durable Rhinos actually are for the cost. With Razorbacks being the same cost you trade off surprisingly okay for points, even though Assault Cannon variants are still pretty strong.
JNAProductions wrote: Not much reworking needed. Take that as Land Raider math, then.
490/216, or 2.27 damage, about.
Does drop it to only four Heavy Destroyers needed to one-round a Rhino 50% of the time.
That's surprisingly not too bad considering how durable Rhinos actually are for the cost. With Razorbacks being the same cost you trade off surprisingly okay for points, even though Assault Cannon variants are still pretty strong.
Account for the OLord's cost too, though. That's with MWBD-the odds get worse without it.
JNAProductions wrote: Not much reworking needed. Take that as Land Raider math, then.
490/216, or 2.27 damage, about.
Does drop it to only four Heavy Destroyers needed to one-round a Rhino 50% of the time.
That's surprisingly not too bad considering how durable Rhinos actually are for the cost. With Razorbacks being the same cost you trade off surprisingly okay for points, even though Assault Cannon variants are still pretty strong.
Account for the OLord's cost too, though. That's with MWBD-the odds get worse without it.
7/9 hit
2/3 wound
7/2 damage
98/54, or 1.81 damage.
Fair point. I'll at least try it and see how it goes...
Named characters cannot get Artifacts!!!
1st is Free, 2nd costs 1CP, 3rd cost 2CP.
- Nightmare Shroud: +1 save characteristic, enemies get -1 Ld within 6"
"C" Can lower saves for the Overlord to 2+, better choices available.
- Orb of Eternity: Replaces Res Orb. +1 to the result.
"B" Even if you spend 1CP to get this you still get a better result than from "Enhanced Reanimation Protocol" Stratagem that costs 2CP.
- Gauntlet of Conflagrator: One use only. 8" Pistol 1. Roll a D6 for each model in the target unit within 8". MW on each roll of 6.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voidreaper: Replaces War/Voidscythe. Wounds on 2+ unless targeting vehicles, in which case it has S7. (AP -4, D3)
"B" Very good CC weapon, but do you want to be in CC?
- Veil of Darkness: Bearer and 1 dynasty infantry unit within 3" are removed and can deepstrike 9" away from enemy (unit must be within 6" of bearer)
"A" Maybe the best default Artifact available, gives much needed mobility, good on bubble wrapped characters like Lord or even a Cryptek if the Overlord has a Artifact.
- Lightning Field: 4++. Roll a D6 for enemy units within 1" of the bearer at the start of the fight phase. A MW on 4+
"C" Overlords have a 4++, Cryptek and Lords are really too weak for CC.
"A" The best upgrade for a CCB as it has no invulnerable save. CCB has the largest base so most likely to benefit from the "at the start of fight phase" MW on 4+ roll on all models within 1", its a flyer so flying over and positioning to maximize potential targets is advisable.
- Nanoscarab Casket. Replaces Phylactery. Regains D3 rather than 1, during both your and opponents turn. First time bearer is slain, on 4+ he is set back up at tend of phase, with D6 wounds remaining.
"A" Exellent choice for the (only unnamed character with Phylactery) Destroyer. Doubles the wound regeneration and gives a free enhanced "Resurrection Protocol" stratagem worth 1CP with D6 wounds instead of 1 wound. Can be resurrected a second time by "Resurrection Protocol" for 1CP.
- Sempiternal Weave. Infantry only. +1T and +1W.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voltaic Staff. Mephrit Relic. Repalces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 3 S6 AP3 D2 / User AP2 D1
"B" Good against multi wound, a wound roll of 6+ gives extra MW "A" Combined with Warlord trait "Merciless Tyrant" increases range by 6" to 18" and may target a Character! Especially good on a Destroyer Lord as he gets to re-roll to hit and to wound, increasing the chance of rolling 6+ wound for MW.
- Blood Scythe. Novokh Relic. Replaces War/Voidscythe. +2 S, AP-4, D2, +D3 Attacks.
"B" A good choice for a CC Character.
- Abyssal Staff. Sauthek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 1. Hits automatically, roll 3D6 if a unit is hit in the shooting phase: equal or greater than LD and unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. (AP-2 D1 in melee)
"C" Weak, should be called the Abysmal Staff. (Honestly should have been a D6MW and then a "B").
- The Solar Staff. Nephrek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 6, S5 AP3 D1 / AP2 D1. If enemy infantry is hit in shooting phase,on 4+ they are blinded and cannot overwatch and suffers -1 to hit for rest of turn.
"B" Good for a shooty Character.
- Timesplinter Cloak. Nihilak Relic. Once per battle, re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll, or damage roll for the bearer. 5+++.
"A" Fantastic, essentially one Free reroll worth 1 CP and a FNP 5+++
My opponents list consisted of 2x Coldstar Commanders, 3x basic Fire Warrior squad, a Riptide, 2x Broadsides, a flyer and a Hammerhead. Plenty of drones and Markerlight units in between.
It was Hammer & deployment, I had three objective Markers pretty much in or close to my deployment zone.
With a lucky Seize I managed to get first turn!
Turn 1: Immortals with Imothekh slowly moved up the board, securing an objective marker. Had to be very careful to bubblewrap Imotekh around the Immortals, or else a Coldstar Commander could land right next to him and blow him up.
I decided to MWBD + Veil the Destroyers to get rid of either the Broadsides or the Riptide ASAP. This was a big mistake. While the Destroyer bomb was effective, it left the Gauss Immortals to do nothing for pretty much the rest of the match.
Either way, it was time for the shooting phase.
I started with Imothekh's Storm; who did a grant total of 9 Mortal Wounds spread out over several targets. It's great when your opponent has a big, important unit standing in the middle, means a larger AoE effect for the Storm.
One DDA did 10 wounds to a Riptide, thanks to my opponent failing two drone 'lookout sire's'. But boy are those annoying did I find out later.
The other DDA brought one Broadside down to one wound.
Then the Destroyers came in. With MWBD + their Strategem, they did a grand total of 13 wounds to the Riptide. Sounds good, but I should have split-fired a bit and gotten the wounded Broadside as well.
Opponents turn 1: The Tau retaliate with great force. Combined fire from the Fire Warriors, Cold Star Commanders and the Broadsides brought down the Destroyers. The Hammerhead managed to do 8 wounds to a DDA, which would have been dead were it not for the Quantum Deflection stratagem.
My turn 2: Imotekh and the Tesla Immortals moved up again, they were now in range along with the Tomb Blades.
Gauss Immortals stayed put, they took a beating from the enemy flyer dropping bombs on them.
Shooting:
One DDA one-shotted the flyer.
The other DDA wiffed and did nothing.
Then came the grand idea behind a large part of the list; using the Sautekh stratagem with all the Tesla I had in my list.
The problem was.... it required me to do an unsaved wound! With the DDA missing his shots, the Tesla units now had to deal a wound themselves.
Whiiiich brought me to AP0 vs a 2+ save..... yea. Nothing happened.
Enemy turn 2: The Fire Warriors and Commanders moved up, confident they could take my Immortals and Tomb Blades out. Fire from the Warriors, Broadside and Commanders finished of the Tomb Blades and one squad of Immortals.
Tau just do not care about you being in cover. Smart Missile Systems and plenty of Markerlights is just a big FU to cover.
My turn 3: With what little is left, Imothekh and the Overlord decided to retreat to try and hold as many objectives as possible.
The other Immortal squad, now restored to their original numbers, moved up along an empty flank to try and secure another objective.
Shooting:
A DDA one-shotted the Hammerhead.
The other DDA landed some shots on the Broadside, but those were intercepted by the last remaining drones.
Opponents turn 3: Everything moved up, one Coldstar Commander took out the Gauss Immortals. The other ColdStar + the Broadside managed to do only 4 wounds to a DDA, once again thanks to
Quantum Overload.
At this point the owner of the FLGS wanted to close, so we called it.
Final score: 11 to 7.
Post-match thoughts:
While the match went ok, I felt like I made some big mistakes during the match. That along with several units in my army not working as I wanted them to.
Mistakes: -Why did I rush in so quickly with the Veil'd Destroyers? My opponent's optimal range was 36" and I held three objective markers in my deployment zone. I should have stayed put turn one and let him come to me thanks to the range of the DDA's.
-Another big mistake was greedily Veiling in the Destroyers, leaving the Gauss Immortals to pick their noses in my deployment zone. I should have Veiled them up and simply used the Destroyers superior mobility to make use of both units.
-The 'Enchanced RP' is such a trap stratagem. Yes I got CP's back thanks to the Sautekh WL, but even when 7 Immortals are dead it simply isn't worth it.
-While the Sautekh Strategem sounds awesome, it can sometimes be more difficult to land that one unsaved wound on a priority target than it may seem!
-More specifically against Tau: Get those pesky drones! So many D3 or D6dmg shots from my Destroyers or DDA's were absorbed by them.
Weak units in the list:
-Min Tesla Immortal squads. Such a waste of MWBD and too easily shot of the table. Even the 'save' 24" range of Tesla us usually not enough to keep them away from your opponents guns.
-6x Tomb Blades /w Tesla. Again, I felt like a big unit of 9 would have lived through focus fire.
And the fact they they had Tesla weapons just made them do..... nothing. No AP is just killing. A full squad of 9 with Gauss Blasters, played way more aggressively would have done a lot better.
But, not all is bad though! Here are the positive parts of the army:
-Destroyer bomb. Unsurprisingly, their damage output is absolutely nuts. Even against tough units which you wound on 5+, the re-roll to wound plus their high AP makes them a threat to any enemy unit.
-DDA. By far my MVP's of the match, often blowing up one big unit per turn. They did however, eat through my CP like cotton candy. While I could afford it with 7 CP + Sautekh WL, they often require a re-roll for the D6 shots or the Quantum Deflection stratagem.
Final thoughts:
Imothek the Storm Lord. I'm not sure what to make of him. Yes him bringing an extra CP is nice, and his WL is great. And I also landed a nice Storm which might make me a bit biased. But his MWBD targets just did nothing, leaving him kind of useless just hanging out with them.
Can't draw any conclusions on him yet, but I'll definitely give him another go!
Please put long comments (like lists or battle reports) under spoilers. Otherwise they take up half the page by themselves.
My opponents list consisted of 2x Coldstar Commanders, 3x basic Fire Warrior squad, a Riptide, 2x Broadsides, a flyer and a Hammerhead. Plenty of drones and Markerlight units in between.
It was Hammer & deployment, I had three objective Markers pretty much in or close to my deployment zone.
With a lucky Seize I managed to get first turn!
Turn 1: Immortals with Imothekh slowly moved up the board, securing an objective marker. Had to be very careful to bubblewrap Imotekh around the Immortals, or else a Coldstar Commander could land right next to him and blow him up.
I decided to MWBD + Veil the Destroyers to get rid of either the Broadsides or the Riptide ASAP. This was a big mistake. While the Destroyer bomb was effective, it left the Gauss Immortals to do nothing for pretty much the rest of the match.
Either way, it was time for the shooting phase.
I started with Imothekh's Storm; who did a grant total of 9 Mortal Wounds spread out over several targets. It's great when your opponent has a big, important unit standing in the middle, means a larger AoE effect for the Storm.
One DDA did 10 wounds to a Riptide, thanks to my opponent failing two drone 'lookout sire's'. But boy are those annoying did I find out later.
The other DDA brought one Broadside down to one wound.
Then the Destroyers came in. With MWBD + their Strategem, they did a grand total of 13 wounds to the Riptide. Sounds good, but I should have split-fired a bit and gotten the wounded Broadside as well.
Opponents turn 1: The Tau retaliate with great force. Combined fire from the Fire Warriors, Cold Star Commanders and the Broadsides brought down the Destroyers. The Hammerhead managed to do 8 wounds to a DDA, which would have been dead were it not for the Quantum Deflection stratagem.
My turn 2: Imotekh and the Tesla Immortals moved up again, they were now in range along with the Tomb Blades.
Gauss Immortals stayed put, they took a beating from the enemy flyer dropping bombs on them.
Shooting:
One DDA one-shotted the flyer.
The other DDA wiffed and did nothing.
Then came the grand idea behind a large part of the list; using the Sautekh stratagem with all the Tesla I had in my list.
The problem was.... it required me to do an unsaved wound! With the DDA missing his shots, the Tesla units now had to deal a wound themselves.
Whiiiich brought me to AP0 vs a 2+ save..... yea. Nothing happened.
Enemy turn 2: The Fire Warriors and Commanders moved up, confident they could take my Immortals and Tomb Blades out. Fire from the Warriors, Broadside and Commanders finished of the Tomb Blades and one squad of Immortals.
Tau just do not care about you being in cover. Smart Missile Systems and plenty of Markerlights is just a big FU to cover.
My turn 3: With what little is left, Imothekh and the Overlord decided to retreat to try and hold as many objectives as possible.
The other Immortal squad, now restored to their original numbers, moved up along an empty flank to try and secure another objective.
Shooting:
A DDA one-shotted the Hammerhead.
The other DDA landed some shots on the Broadside, but those were intercepted by the last remaining drones.
Opponents turn 3: Everything moved up, one Coldstar Commander took out the Gauss Immortals. The other ColdStar + the Broadside managed to do only 4 wounds to a DDA, once again thanks to
Quantum Overload.
At this point the owner of the FLGS wanted to close, so we called it.
Final score: 11 to 7.
Post-match thoughts:
While the match went ok, I felt like I made some big mistakes during the match. That along with several units in my army not working as I wanted them to.
Mistakes: -Why did I rush in so quickly with the Veil'd Destroyers? My opponent's optimal range was 36" and I held three objective markers in my deployment zone. I should have stayed put turn one and let him come to me thanks to the range of the DDA's.
-Another big mistake was greedily Veiling in the Destroyers, leaving the Gauss Immortals to pick their noses in my deployment zone. I should have Veiled them up and simply used the Destroyers superior mobility to make use of both units.
-The 'Enchanced RP' is such a trap stratagem. Yes I got CP's back thanks to the Sautekh WL, but even when 7 Immortals are dead it simply isn't worth it.
-While the Sautekh Strategem sounds awesome, it can sometimes be more difficult to land that one unsaved wound on a priority target than it may seem!
-More specifically against Tau: Get those pesky drones! So many D3 or D6dmg shots from my Destroyers or DDA's were absorbed by them.
Weak units in the list:
-Min Tesla Immortal squads. Such a waste of MWBD and too easily shot of the table. Even the 'save' 24" range of Tesla us usually not enough to keep them away from your opponents guns.
-6x Tomb Blades /w Tesla. Again, I felt like a big unit of 9 would have lived through focus fire.
And the fact they they had Tesla weapons just made them do..... nothing. No AP is just killing. A full squad of 9 with Gauss Blasters, played way more aggressively would have done a lot better.
But, not all is bad though! Here are the positive parts of the army:
-Destroyer bomb. Unsurprisingly, their damage output is absolutely nuts. Even against tough units which you wound on 5+, the re-roll to wound plus their high AP makes them a threat to any enemy unit.
-DDA. By far my MVP's of the match, often blowing up one big unit per turn. They did however, eat through my CP like cotton candy. While I could afford it with 7 CP + Sautekh WL, they often require a re-roll for the D6 shots or the Quantum Deflection stratagem.
Final thoughts:
Imothek the Storm Lord. I'm not sure what to make of him. Yes him bringing an extra CP is nice, and his WL is great. And I also landed a nice Storm which might make me a bit biased. But his MWBD targets just did nothing, leaving him kind of useless just hanging out with them.
Can't draw any conclusions on him yet, but I'll definitely give him another go!
I was thinking about the whole sautekh stratagem vs tau earlier and realized it would not be that hard to do if you use a sautekh obelisk. The pulse will do mortal wounds to a lot of stuff on a 4+, and then you can use the stratagem to pick whatever was wounded to get the best result for the +1 to hit. Also you can use the pulse to take out drones first so they can't "look out sir" the suits they are around. Is it the best option? No, but what at least it gives the obelisk a situational status vs tau compared to junk status.
Named characters cannot get Artifacts!!!
1st is Free, 2nd costs 1CP, 3rd cost 2CP.
- Nightmare Shroud: +1 save characteristic, enemies get -1 Ld within 6"
"C" Can lower saves for the Overlord to 2+, better choices available.
- Orb of Eternity: Replaces Res Orb. +1 to the result.
"B" Even if you spend 1CP to get this you still get a better result than from "Enhanced Reanimation Protocol" Stratagem that costs 2CP.
- Gauntlet of Conflagrator: One use only. 8" Pistol 1. Roll a D6 for each model in the target unit within 8". MW on each roll of 6.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voidreaper: Replaces War/Voidscythe. Wounds on 2+ unless targeting vehicles, in which case it has S7. (AP -4, D3)
"B" Very good CC weapon, but do you want to be in CC?
- Veil of Darkness: Bearer and 1 dynasty infantry unit within 3" are removed and can deepstrike 9" away from enemy (unit must be within 6" of bearer)
"A" Maybe the best default Artifact available, gives much needed mobility, good on bubble wrapped characters like Lord or even a Cryptek if the Overlord has a Artifact.
- Lightning Field: 4++. Roll a D6 for enemy units within 1" of the bearer at the start of the fight phase. A MW on 4+
"C" Overlords have a 4++, Cryptek and Lords are really too weak for CC.
"A" The best upgrade for a CCB as it has no invulnerable save. CCB has the largest base so most likely to benefit from the "at the start of fight phase" MW on 4+ roll on all models within 1", its a flyer so flying over and positioning to maximize potential targets is advisable.
- Nanoscarab Casket. Replaces Phylactery. Regains D3 rather than 1, during both your and opponents turn. First time bearer is slain, on 4+ he is set back up at tend of phase, with D6 wounds remaining.
"A" Exellent choice for the (only unnamed character with Phylactery) Destroyer. Doubles the wound regeneration and gives a free enhanced "Resurrection Protocol" stratagem worth 1CP with D6 wounds instead of 1 wound. Can be resurrected a second time by "Resurrection Protocol" for 1CP.
- Sempiternal Weave. Infantry only. +1T and +1W.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voltaic Staff. Mephrit Relic. Repalces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 3 S6 AP3 D2 / User AP2 D1
"B" Good against multi wound, a wound roll of 6+ gives extra MW "A" Combined with Warlord trait "Merciless Tyrant" increases range by 6" to 18" and may target a Character! Especially good on a Destroyer Lord as he gets to re-roll to hit and to wound, increasing the chance of rolling 6+ wound for MW.
- Blood Scythe. Novokh Relic. Replaces War/Voidscythe. +2 S, AP-4, D2, +D3 Attacks.
"B" A good choice for a CC Character.
- Abyssal Staff. Sauthek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 1. Hits automatically, roll 3D6 if a unit is hit in the shooting phase: equal or greater than LD and unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. (AP-2 D1 in melee)
"C" Weak, should be called the Abysmal Staff. (Honestly should have been a D6MW and then a "B").
- The Solar Staff. Nephrek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 6, S5 AP3 D1 / AP2 D1. If enemy infantry is hit in shooting phase,on 4+ they are blinded and cannot overwatch and suffers -1 to hit for rest of turn.
"B" Good for a shooty Character.
- Timesplinter Cloak. Nihilak Relic. Once per battle, re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll, or damage roll for the bearer. 5+++.
"A" Fantastic, essentially one Free reroll worth 1 CP and a FNP 5+++
I don't see why not.
I'll add it to the top post.
I don't mind the grading of relics as a concept but I don't feel there's much depth to the explanations here.
Named characters cannot get Artifacts!!!
1st is Free, 2nd costs 1CP, 3rd cost 2CP.
- Nightmare Shroud: +1 save characteristic, enemies get -1 Ld within 6"
"C" Can lower saves for the Overlord to 2+, better choices available.
- Orb of Eternity: Replaces Res Orb. +1 to the result.
"B" Even if you spend 1CP to get this you still get a better result than from "Enhanced Reanimation Protocol" Stratagem that costs 2CP.
- Gauntlet of Conflagrator: One use only. 8" Pistol 1. Roll a D6 for each model in the target unit within 8". MW on each roll of 6.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voidreaper: Replaces War/Voidscythe. Wounds on 2+ unless targeting vehicles, in which case it has S7. (AP -4, D3)
"B" Very good CC weapon, but do you want to be in CC?
- Veil of Darkness: Bearer and 1 dynasty infantry unit within 3" are removed and can deepstrike 9" away from enemy (unit must be within 6" of bearer)
"A" Maybe the best default Artifact available, gives much needed mobility, good on bubble wrapped characters like Lord or even a Cryptek if the Overlord has a Artifact.
- Lightning Field: 4++. Roll a D6 for enemy units within 1" of the bearer at the start of the fight phase. A MW on 4+
"C" Overlords have a 4++, Cryptek and Lords are really too weak for CC.
"A" The best upgrade for a CCB as it has no invulnerable save. CCB has the largest base so most likely to benefit from the "at the start of fight phase" MW on 4+ roll on all models within 1", its a flyer so flying over and positioning to maximize potential targets is advisable.
- Nanoscarab Casket. Replaces Phylactery. Regains D3 rather than 1, during both your and opponents turn. First time bearer is slain, on 4+ he is set back up at tend of phase, with D6 wounds remaining.
"A" Exellent choice for the (only unnamed character with Phylactery) Destroyer. Doubles the wound regeneration and gives a free enhanced "Resurrection Protocol" stratagem worth 1CP with D6 wounds instead of 1 wound. Can be resurrected a second time by "Resurrection Protocol" for 1CP.
- Sempiternal Weave. Infantry only. +1T and +1W.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voltaic Staff. Mephrit Relic. Repalces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 3 S6 AP3 D2 / User AP2 D1
"B" Good against multi wound, a wound roll of 6+ gives extra MW "A" Combined with Warlord trait "Merciless Tyrant" increases range by 6" to 18" and may target a Character! Especially good on a Destroyer Lord as he gets to re-roll to hit and to wound, increasing the chance of rolling 6+ wound for MW.
- Blood Scythe. Novokh Relic. Replaces War/Voidscythe. +2 S, AP-4, D2, +D3 Attacks.
"B" A good choice for a CC Character.
- Abyssal Staff. Sauthek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 1. Hits automatically, roll 3D6 if a unit is hit in the shooting phase: equal or greater than LD and unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. (AP-2 D1 in melee)
"C" Weak, should be called the Abysmal Staff. (Honestly should have been a D6MW and then a "B").
- The Solar Staff. Nephrek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 6, S5 AP3 D1 / AP2 D1. If enemy infantry is hit in shooting phase,on 4+ they are blinded and cannot overwatch and suffers -1 to hit for rest of turn.
"B" Good for a shooty Character.
- Timesplinter Cloak. Nihilak Relic. Once per battle, re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll, or damage roll for the bearer. 5+++.
"A" Fantastic, essentially one Free reroll worth 1 CP and a FNP 5+++
I don't see why not.
I'll add it to the top post.
I don't mind the grading of relics as a concept but I don't feel there's much depth to the explanations here.
If you'd care to leave some input about them I can make an edit to the top post.
Named characters cannot get Artifacts!!!
1st is Free, 2nd costs 1CP, 3rd cost 2CP.
- Nightmare Shroud: +1 save characteristic, enemies get -1 Ld within 6"
"C" Can lower saves for the Overlord to 2+, better choices available.
- Orb of Eternity: Replaces Res Orb. +1 to the result.
"B" Even if you spend 1CP to get this you still get a better result than from "Enhanced Reanimation Protocol" Stratagem that costs 2CP.
- Gauntlet of Conflagrator: One use only. 8" Pistol 1. Roll a D6 for each model in the target unit within 8". MW on each roll of 6.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voidreaper: Replaces War/Voidscythe. Wounds on 2+ unless targeting vehicles, in which case it has S7. (AP -4, D3)
"B" Very good CC weapon, but do you want to be in CC?
- Veil of Darkness: Bearer and 1 dynasty infantry unit within 3" are removed and can deepstrike 9" away from enemy (unit must be within 6" of bearer)
"A" Maybe the best default Artifact available, gives much needed mobility, good on bubble wrapped characters like Lord or even a Cryptek if the Overlord has a Artifact.
- Lightning Field: 4++. Roll a D6 for enemy units within 1" of the bearer at the start of the fight phase. A MW on 4+
"C" Overlords have a 4++, Cryptek and Lords are really too weak for CC.
"A" The best upgrade for a CCB as it has no invulnerable save. CCB has the largest base so most likely to benefit from the "at the start of fight phase" MW on 4+ roll on all models within 1", its a flyer so flying over and positioning to maximize potential targets is advisable.
- Nanoscarab Casket. Replaces Phylactery. Regains D3 rather than 1, during both your and opponents turn. First time bearer is slain, on 4+ he is set back up at tend of phase, with D6 wounds remaining.
"A" Exellent choice for the (only unnamed character with Phylactery) Destroyer. Doubles the wound regeneration and gives a free enhanced "Resurrection Protocol" stratagem worth 1CP with D6 wounds instead of 1 wound. Can be resurrected a second time by "Resurrection Protocol" for 1CP.
- Sempiternal Weave. Infantry only. +1T and +1W.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voltaic Staff. Mephrit Relic. Repalces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 3 S6 AP3 D2 / User AP2 D1
"B" Good against multi wound, a wound roll of 6+ gives extra MW "A" Combined with Warlord trait "Merciless Tyrant" increases range by 6" to 18" and may target a Character! Especially good on a Destroyer Lord as he gets to re-roll to hit and to wound, increasing the chance of rolling 6+ wound for MW.
- Blood Scythe. Novokh Relic. Replaces War/Voidscythe. +2 S, AP-4, D2, +D3 Attacks.
"B" A good choice for a CC Character.
- Abyssal Staff. Sauthek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 1. Hits automatically, roll 3D6 if a unit is hit in the shooting phase: equal or greater than LD and unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. (AP-2 D1 in melee)
"C" Weak, should be called the Abysmal Staff. (Honestly should have been a D6MW and then a "B").
- The Solar Staff. Nephrek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 6, S5 AP3 D1 / AP2 D1. If enemy infantry is hit in shooting phase,on 4+ they are blinded and cannot overwatch and suffers -1 to hit for rest of turn.
"B" Good for a shooty Character.
- Timesplinter Cloak. Nihilak Relic. Once per battle, re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll, or damage roll for the bearer. 5+++.
"A" Fantastic, essentially one Free reroll worth 1 CP and a FNP 5+++
I don't see why not.
I'll add it to the top post.
I don't mind the grading of relics as a concept but I don't feel there's much depth to the explanations here.
If you'd care to leave some input about them I can make an edit to the top post.
I'd love to! Expect a post on the morn as I got work to take care of!
Hmm, for real?
It's not a scenario that's ever come up for me before.
For reference, where does it talk about that part in the rulebook?
Can't check right now but I think it's in the matched play section where it limits stuff like psychic powers.
Edit: pg 214
But isn't that part "suggested rules" for "organised events"? Anything that's not an organised event, or any event that doesn't want to follow those rules, could have more than 4 detachments. (and the 4 detachment limit is only for 2,001-3,000 armies, also. It's less for a limit of 2k).
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Toss my question back out there - list ideas for the Tesseract Vault? I was thinking about using Deceiver to bring it up to the enemy.
Any other ideas? thoughts? etc
Heres the list i used.
Spoiler:
Nephrek battalion
Overlord-warlord- immortal pride trait
Chronotek with veil
Immortal x10 tesla
Immortal x10 tesla
Immortal x10 gauss
Immortal x10 tesla
Immortal x10 tesla
Immortal x10 gauss
Ctan shard of deciever
DDA Tesseract ark
Super heavy aux
Tesseract vault
The first list performed better over all. The vault took some hits getting in range but still well outperformed its points. The second list with the deciever had the vault do even better. One thing to remember, the vault blowing up is not a bad thing. It explodes on 4+ with 2d6 range and d6 mortal. If you get it right up in their face it can wreak absoulte havock and then cause quite a bit of destruction on the way out too if they do manage to kill it. Both those list come in a little under 2k points. Sorry i dont have exact numbers.
Does anyone know yet what the exact limits are on Necron <Dynasty> codes? Like, Transcendent C'tan or Triarch Praetorians don't have <Dynasty>, but I assume adding one into your list doesn't break the dysnasty code, however adding a Sautekh lord would break it (I assume).
Is the general rule some kind of "Characters without <Dynasty> are allowed into <Dynasty> detachments, but may not benefit from the code or stratagems"? Or is the rule "Characters with a <Dynasty> may not be put into any detachments that are not <Dynasty>"?
Basically I'm trying to figure out if there's any wiggleroom for somebody like Imhotekh to be placed into an out of dynasty detachment. I know you can't do it for (eg.) Space Marines, but they also don't have any exceptions like Triarch units.
Also, do Tesseract Vaults get the benefit of Dynasty codes and stratagems? They have <Dynasty> but the also have <C'tan Shards> and I've heard conflicting things about which one gives/excludes dynasty benefits.
The first list performed better over all. The vault took some hits getting in range but still well outperformed its points.
I cant see how Vault can do more damage than its cost. Could you explain what he managed to destroy?
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: Sautekh Abyssal staff artifact is an 'A', it's one of the best ways to trigger a wound for Methodical Destruction. It's autotake imo.
He competes with with Veil of Darkness, so not autotake. Besides that, for me its also A grade.
Xachariah wrote: Does anyone know yet what the exact limits are on Necron <Dynasty> codes? Like, Transcendent C'tan or Triarch Praetorians don't have <Dynasty>, but I assume adding one into your list doesn't break the dysnasty code, however adding a Sautekh lord would break it (I assume).
Is the general rule some kind of "Characters without <Dynasty> are allowed into <Dynasty> detachments, but may not benefit from the code or stratagems"? Or is the rule "Characters with a <Dynasty> may not be put into any detachments that are not <Dynasty>"?
Basically I'm trying to figure out if there's any wiggleroom for somebody like Imhotekh to be placed into an out of dynasty detachment. I know you can't do it for (eg.) Space Marines, but they also don't have any exceptions like Triarch units.
Also, do Tesseract Vaults get the benefit of Dynasty codes and stratagems? They have <Dynasty> but the also have <C'tan Shards> and I've heard conflicting things about which one gives/excludes dynasty benefits.
Vaults are kinda sorta vehicles so i assume they would get Dynastic Codes. As far as triarch and named characters without a dynasty goes, i asssume it's the same as in the case of IG, they SHOULDN'T (it'd be damn slowed if they did) mess with Dynastic codes across a detachment.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I don't mind the grading of relics as a concept but I don't feel there's much depth to the explanations here.
Tnx for the feedback, I wanted to keep it as short as possible, the original grading of units is without explanations. 1d4chan will probably have better and more elaborate explanation in due time.
Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Sautekh Abyssal staff artifact is an 'A', it's one of the best ways to trigger a wound for Methodical Destruction. It's autotake imo.
I haven't thought of that. My reasoning for the grade is two fold: 1# Comparative low potential damage output. 2# Lack of range. Especially for your suggested usage, with only 12" range you will probably not often have a chance to focus fire with the rather expensive 2CP stratagem.
Save yourself using 2CP X-times AND a Artifact slot Just get a Stalker or two and use it for ALL dynasties in the army, every turn (until it dies)
Automatically Appended Next Post: This might be a little unconventional. What do you guys think?
Army 1990 pts & 8CP
Spoiler:
The strategy here would be to have 3 groups of 1 DDA, 1 Cryptek and 10 Warriors, preferably not more than 12" from each other, covering a front of ~30". The groups can be played aggressively in front trying to Sautekh mobility, Gauss Flayers from the Warriors and the DDA. OR Defensively with the DDA staying back and Warriors and Cryptek behind it or in close cover, utilize Sautekh mobility to keep range from enemy.
Main role of Crypptek is repairing the DDA (d3 turn) and keeping Warriors alive (If close together Crypteks can repair 3d3 per turn). Warriors are there to keep Cryptek alive and use RP. Use cover if at all possible. DDA role is o just kill s**t, high power stationary or move and low power (without penalty), primarily enemy vehicles.
4th group is sort of mobile reserve. Destroyer group are to be used to kill priority targets and characters, DLord is especially good against characters and 18" range D2 and possible MW. Scarabs can take/hold objective or just go and suicide.
The first list performed better over all. The vault took some hits getting in range but still well outperformed its points.
I cant see how Vault can do more damage than its cost. Could you explain what he managed to destroy?
In the first list. First turn it took out a unit of gaunts with the tesla shots and degraded a flyrant with antimatter meteor and cosmic fire(it took a few hits from other fire as well). Second turn took burned 1 cp to use top profile. Killed 12 genestealers on seismic assualt. 2 more from sky of falling stars along with more wounds on flyrant and one hive guard. Cosmic fire got 3 more stealers. 2 wounds on malanthrope 2 wounds on flyrant 3 wounds on nuero thrope 1 dead hive guard 3 wounds each on two exocrine. Burned one cp to fire a 4th c'Tan power rolled cosmic fire again. Finished off the neurothrope 2 more wounds on malanthrope 3 more each on exocrines putting them at half. Another dead hive guard. Couple more wounds on flyrant. Then shooting finished off gene stealers. On his turn he killed it in shooting phase it blew up. Rolled a 6. Killed both exos the flyrant the malanthrope 2 more hive guard.
The deciever list performed similarly on the powers but i used several times arrow to get rid of hive guard as i went first. And the tesla did most of the work on the gene stealers.
Both games were against tyranids and fairly similar gun battery style lists.
Not gone through all the posts in detail, but I think the grading up front looks pretty reasonable. I haven't tested everything yet, but from theory looking at it and the bit of playtesting I have done, things look about right.
A few specific thoughts:
Imotekh - expensive, but the storm is actually potentially really useful with high range / no LoS needed. Decent threat vs an army that stays tight, or anything with elite units on the board that you need to deal with (e.g. reapers). Need to play him a few more times but so far so good. He sits well with 3x Sautekh DDAs or similar.
I haven't played warriors at all yet, but tesla immortals have been performing pretty solidly as expected. I've been running as mephrit and advancing early on + hugging cover to keep a 2+ save. When they get into position with MWBD, can kick out some huge damage. I wouldn't put them at an A though as they aren't anything like the power level of destros IMO, but a solid B.
As expected - our fast choices are great now.
TBs are very good - fast, reasonably tough and reasonably killy. I've been running 6 as that's all the models I have atm, but expect to increase this to at least one squad of 9. Happy as an A.
Destroyers with strat are straight up brutal - huge damage output. Infantry key word too so very easy to keep them in cover (i.e. just have to be touching some cover, not obscured). Unit of 6 is hard to shift, and with a cloaktek nearby there's a good chance of getting some back. I assumed they would always get focussed down in one turn, but so far I've found people have actually struggled to get rid of them all in one turn. Definitely an A (so far, best unit in the codex for me).
Scarabs do what scarabs do. Still a great cheap/fast screen. Not as good as some of the cheap bodies other armies get, but B feels fine.
Wraiths - I actually rank these worse than B. They are just as hard to kill as they used to be, but now much more expensive. Realistically there's a good chance all they will do is eat some chaff before getting shot off. I don't find the improved damage output makes up for the increase in points, so I've actually stopped running them now. Would probably put them down at a C.
I'm yet to play with any elites so can't really comment. I'm very surprised to see the deceiver at an A though - what's the thinking on this? Redeploy is nice, but situational / easily countered by a lot of armies with scout moves.
DDA is fantastic. It's actually a credible threat now and much more reliable. Worth running multiple IMO. Perfect unit to park at the back, make use of one of our few long range options + screen deployment vs DS (it's got a huge footprint so can cover a lot of space with it's 9" bubble). Once it's hit it's priority targets, if it is still alive then it can start pushing up to make use of the flayer arrays (/use these when someone gets in your face). As sautekh it can still kick out solid damage from the heavy weapon when moving (and even advancing) upfield. As Mephrit, it's flayers get brutal up close. As always - tough to kill with 14w / QS (+the QS strat to help out). Definitely an A - one of the best choices in the codex.
danzin0 wrote: Not gone through all the posts in detail, but I think the grading up front looks pretty reasonable. I haven't tested everything yet, but from theory looking at it and the bit of playtesting I have done, things look about right.
A few specific thoughts:
Imotekh - expensive, but the storm is actually potentially really useful with high range / no LoS needed. Decent threat vs an army that stays tight, or anything with elite units on the board that you need to deal with (e.g. reapers). Need to play him a few more times but so far so good. He sits well with 3x Sautekh DDAs or similar.
I haven't played warriors at all yet, but tesla immortals have been performing pretty solidly as expected. I've been running as mephrit and advancing early on + hugging cover to keep a 2+ save. When they get into position with MWBD, can kick out some huge damage. I wouldn't put them at an A though as they aren't anything like the power level of destros IMO, but a solid B.
As expected - our fast choices are great now.
TBs are very good - fast, reasonably tough and reasonably killy. I've been running 6 as that's all the models I have atm, but expect to increase this to at least one squad of 9. Happy as an A.
Destroyers with strat are straight up brutal - huge damage output. Infantry key word too so very easy to keep them in cover (i.e. just have to be touching some cover, not obscured). Unit of 6 is hard to shift, and with a cloaktek nearby there's a good chance of getting some back. I assumed they would always get focussed down in one turn, but so far I've found people have actually struggled to get rid of them all in one turn. Definitely an A (so far, best unit in the codex for me).
Scarabs do what scarabs do. Still a great cheap/fast screen. Not as good as some of the cheap bodies other armies get, but B feels fine.
Wraiths - I actually rank these worse than B. They are just as hard to kill as they used to be, but now much more expensive. Realistically there's a good chance all they will do is eat some chaff before getting shot off. I don't find the improved damage output makes up for the increase in points, so I've actually stopped running them now. Would probably put them down at a C.
I'm yet to play with any elites so can't really comment. I'm very surprised to see the deceiver at an A though - what's the thinking on this? Redeploy is nice, but situational / easily countered by a lot of armies with scout moves.
DDA is fantastic. It's actually a credible threat now and much more reliable. Worth running multiple IMO. Perfect unit to park at the back, make use of one of our few long range options + screen deployment vs DS (it's got a huge footprint so can cover a lot of space with it's 9" bubble). Once it's hit it's priority targets, if it is still alive then it can start pushing up to make use of the flayer arrays (/use these when someone gets in your face). As sautekh it can still kick out solid damage from the heavy weapon when moving (and even advancing) upfield. As Mephrit, it's flayers get brutal up close. As always - tough to kill with 14w / QS (+the QS strat to help out). Definitely an A - one of the best choices in the codex.
The thing about wraiths now is they won't get bogged down fighting chaff as they can leave combat, shoot and charge again, so in the right position they can make could character assassins due to ignore terrain and models , and due to high strength they can harass tougher multi wound models.
Also a question, considering wraiths ignore models can they charge (not just move in the movement phase) through screens as I understand they have to end there charge move within an inch of target but what about if they come within an inch whilst moving?
Am sad to see wraiths go up so much, though they are amazing bullet magnets still, and the increased threat range and extra damage. It just enforces how much they need to die for the opponent. So think one unit to soak up a armys alpha strikes isnt too bad, though never use more than one unit compared to before
The first list performed better over all. The vault took some hits getting in range but still well outperformed its points.
I cant see how Vault can do more damage than its cost. Could you explain what he managed to destroy?
In the first list. First turn it took out a unit of gaunts with the tesla shots and degraded a flyrant with antimatter meteor and cosmic fire(it took a few hits from other fire as well). Second turn took burned 1 cp to use top profile. Killed 12 genestealers on seismic assualt. 2 more from sky of falling stars along with more wounds on flyrant and one hive guard. Cosmic fire got 3 more stealers. 2 wounds on malanthrope 2 wounds on flyrant 3 wounds on nuero thrope 1 dead hive guard 3 wounds each on two exocrine. Burned one cp to fire a 4th c'Tan power rolled cosmic fire again. Finished off the neurothrope 2 more wounds on malanthrope 3 more each on exocrines putting them at half. Another dead hive guard. Couple more wounds on flyrant. Then shooting finished off gene stealers. On his turn he killed it in shooting phase it blew up. Rolled a 6. Killed both exos the flyrant the malanthrope 2 more hive guard.
The deciever list performed similarly on the powers but i used several times arrow to get rid of hive guard as i went first. And the tesla did most of the work on the gene stealers.
Both games were against tyranids and fairly similar gun battery style lists.
So Vault got within 9" of 7+ enemy units and wreak havoc with double cosmic fire. Thats ideal situation for vault which requires that opponent advances to your part of the table cause vault is not fast enought by itself. In most situation i doubt it could bring its points back.
So Vault got within 9" of 7+ enemy units and wreak havoc with double cosmic fire. Thats ideal situation for vault which requires that opponent advances to your part of the table cause vault is not fast enought by itself. In most situation i doubt it could bring its points back.
then bring the Deceiver so you can Deceiver bomb 12" away from your enemy models then just move it into position if your going 1st or place it defensively if going 2nd. Also, if you think it's movement is too slow then just advance it. You will have a -1 on your Tesla spheres but you can still use your C'tan powers. I can easily see the Vault getting at least it's points back in most games it will be used in. It will have more affect on horde type armies though rather then elite-style armies.
He didnt advance into me i advanced into him. His gun line stayed where it started. And yes in the first game it was a better than average series of rolls. The second list where i used the deciever to get across the board. I didnt roll nearly as well on powers in that game but it stuck around till turn 4 and still put out a crippling amount of wounds. I agree it will almost always do better against large size units but with different power choices it will do work against elites as well. Times arrow is amazing against elites.
Hmm, for real? It's not a scenario that's ever come up for me before. For reference, where does it talk about that part in the rulebook?
Can't check right now but I think it's in the matched play section where it limits stuff like psychic powers.
Edit: pg 214
But isn't that part "suggested rules" for "organised events"? Anything that's not an organised event, or any event that doesn't want to follow those rules, could have more than 4 detachments. (and the 4 detachment limit is only for 2,001-3,000 armies, also. It's less for a limit of 2k).
Well yeah but I am under the impression that everyone plays 2k games with 3 detachments on a 6' x 4' board. If we ignore that then the entire tactics section of this forum probably needs revising. We can then play with 10 Tau Commanders on a 7' x 1' board.
So Vault got within 9" of 7+ enemy units and wreak havoc with double cosmic fire. Thats ideal situation for vault which requires that opponent advances to your part of the table cause vault is not fast enought by itself. In most situation i doubt it could bring its points back.
then bring the Deceiver so you can Deceiver bomb 12" away from your enemy models then just move it into position if your going 1st or place it defensively if going 2nd. Also, if you think it's movement is too slow then just advance it. You will have a -1 on your Tesla spheres but you can still use your C'tan powers. I can easily see the Vault getting at least it's points back in most games it will be used in. It will have more affect on horde type armies though rather then elite-style armies.
I dunno. It slings out a lot of mortal wounds too, potentially. That is good for dealing with elite armies too.
Also, here is a ....weird list. Trying to find a way to max out on the in-your-face possibilities. But I feel like my 156pt in Scarabs might be a waste and I don't have a Battalion, so I am going in with a paltry 5CP. But with Hyperlogical Strategist, it should offset it a bit (in theory).
Deceiver Bomb the Vault. Veil up the Chronotek and MWBD Immortals. Deep Strike the Destroyers. Tunnel in the Sentinels. That is a lot of stuff in the enemy's face very early, but I am not sure that is actually a worthwhile strategy at all! The Scarabs just form a perimeter for the Cloaktek and keep my CP regenerator safe and hold backfield objectives or whatever.
So the new Vault is exactly on par with Mortarion for durability per pts (and has living metal). Does more mortal wounds with the pulse. Kills more dudes with the gun than anti-horde silence. And still have 2 more powers.
You can make it always have 3 casts for 1 CP.
Dude.
rvd1ofakind wrote: So the new Vault is exactly on par with Mortarion for durability per pts (and has living metal). Does more mortal wounds with the pulse. Kills more dudes with the gun than anti-horde silence. And still have 2 more powers.
You can make it always have 3 casts for 1 CP.
Dude.
Dude.
...wait, did you follow me here from the AdMech tactica?!
The thing about wraiths now is they won't get bogged down fighting chaff as they can leave combat, shoot and charge again, so in the right position they can make could character assassins due to ignore terrain and models , and due to high strength they can harass tougher multi wound models.
Also a question, considering wraiths ignore models can they charge (not just move in the movement phase) through screens as I understand they have to end there charge move within an inch of target but what about if they come within an inch whilst moving?
They can leave combat yes, but so can whatever you touched... and then you will proceed to get shot to hell. I'm not suggesting they are useless by any stretch - they do hit hard now and situationally could do some work, but in general I'd expect most competitive players to effectively screen them out to the point they aren't much use and they will still easily die in one turn to focussed fire. Essentially what they do is buy you perhaps one turn of having other stuff (destros) untouched, but they did this before at much lower point cost. If it's a choice between 6 wraiths and 6 destros now, I don't see any comparison really.
Maybe one use is as a counter assault unit, but feels like a point sink in a competitive list where they will often serve little purpose.
Edit: it is possible sometimes to surround whatever you get into so they can't fall back, which is great. This is easier said then done though as wraiths will likely hit hard enough to kill a few models -> opponent will just pick up the surrounded models.
So I'm looking to start Necrons with 2 Forgebane boxes and a SC and what I'm seeing is that everything in Forgebane is a B roughly. This is making me sad
rvd1ofakind wrote: So the new Vault is exactly on par with Mortarion for durability per pts (and has living metal). Does more mortal wounds with the pulse. Kills more dudes with the gun than anti-horde silence. And still have 2 more powers.
You can make it always have 3 casts for 1 CP.
Dude.
Dude.
Good, lets compare to mortarion. With 18 atacks he hits 17.5, wounds 17 - thats 11 dead marines per fight phase. While Vault hits 13 times, wounds 9, kills 3 marines. I can see Vault do about 10 mortals with powers, which requires 3 turns to return its points.
Supported by warptime Mortarion is very mobile, but often dies turn 1 from whole army shooting. Vault with same durability (lower if Mortarion under miasma) should perform at same level.
I really hope that Vault is competitive piece. I just didnt see this ATM. Please tell me what its targets and whats its role in army so i can trust you and go write a list with it)))
rvd1ofakind wrote: So the new Vault is exactly on par with Mortarion for durability per pts (and has living metal). Does more mortal wounds with the pulse. Kills more dudes with the gun than anti-horde silence. And still have 2 more powers.
You can make it always have 3 casts for 1 CP.
Dude.
Dude.
Good, lets compare to mortarion. With 18 atacks he hits 17.5, wounds 17 - thats 11 dead marines per fight phase. While Vault hits 13 times, wounds 9, kills 3 marines. I can see Vault do about 10 mortals with powers, which requires 3 turns to return its points.
Supported by warptime Mortarion is very mobile, but often dies turn 1 from whole army shooting. Vault with same durability (lower if Mortarion under miasma) should perform at same level.
I really hope that Vault is competitive piece. I just didnt see this ATM. Please tell me what its targets and whats its role in army so i can trust you and go write a list with it)))
Its better against hordes than elites but ot can handle those as well. 20 str7 tesla shots will put out some hurt on anything that isnt -1 or more to hit. The powers you will need to tailor to your opponents. Pretty much all of them have a good use. Ive tried it worked well enough i bought a second one. Most i can say is proxy one and test it out.
I'm really liking Warriors with Mephrit.
Veil of darkness DS within 12" to guarantee rapid fire.
20 warriors 40 Shots at rapid fire with -2 (Merphrit with -1 AP); hitting on 3+ (give +1 strat hitting on 2+)
33 hits, 16.667 wounds vs T4 at -2 ap; 11 wounds,
22 Wounds on T3, -2 AP, thats no saves for lots of chaff hordes
rvd1ofakind wrote: So the new Vault is exactly on par with Mortarion for durability per pts (and has living metal). Does more mortal wounds with the pulse. Kills more dudes with the gun than anti-horde silence. And still have 2 more powers.
You can make it always have 3 casts for 1 CP.
Dude.
Dude.
Good, lets compare to mortarion. With 18 atacks he hits 17.5, wounds 17 - thats 11 dead marines per fight phase. While Vault hits 13 times, wounds 9, kills 3 marines. I can see Vault do about 10 mortals with powers, which requires 3 turns to return its points.
Supported by warptime Mortarion is very mobile, but often dies turn 1 from whole army shooting. Vault with same durability (lower if Mortarion under miasma) should perform at same level.
I really hope that Vault is competitive piece. I just didnt see this ATM. Please tell me what its targets and whats its role in army so i can trust you and go write a list with it)))
Since when are space marines horde? I'm talking about actual horde units: cultists, daemons, etc
rvd1ofakind wrote: So the new Vault is exactly on par with Mortarion for durability per pts (and has living metal). Does more mortal wounds with the pulse. Kills more dudes with the gun than anti-horde silence. And still have 2 more powers.
You can make it always have 3 casts for 1 CP.
Dude.
Dude.
...wait, did you follow me here from the AdMech tactica?!
Haha, I just saw the vault finally being good and came here
3x Cheap Lord (228)
6x5 Immortal (510)
1x6 Wraith (330)
2x3 Scarab (78)
3x5 Deathmark (285)
3x3 Heavy Destroyer (513)
Comes to 1944pts with some points to change up HQs. 12 CP but not quite a competitive play list
It wouldn't matter for that list because SH Auxiliary detachments definitely do not get code benefits. I think the Vault is intended to benefit from codes if you file it into a supreme command or superheay detachment but it isn't entirely clear, hopefully GW addresses it in the FAQ.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Nick Nanavati's proposed build
Mephrit Battalion
Anrakyr 167
Szeraz 143
Overlord- warscythe, veil, res orb 130
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
Deceiver 225
Transcendant C’tan 225
Mephrit Super heavy
Tesseract Vault 496
It's pretty solid, but I think it might be too elite. Once the Warriors are gone (and there's no Invuln for them, so that's quite easy), it's going to be really, really hard to score objectives because everything else is a single Character. Depends on opponent and positioning, of course.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Nick Nanavati's proposed build
Mephrit Battalion
Anrakyr 167
Szeraz 143
Overlord- warscythe, veil, res orb 130
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
Deceiver 225
Transcendant C’tan 225
Mephrit Super heavy
Tesseract Vault 496
You dont need such priced hq for just 3 warriors blob. Two overlord but no good MVBD target. Dropp Anrakyr. Take more scarabs or warriors. Think about immo.
Dynas wrote: I'm really liking Warriors with Mephrit.
Veil of darkness DS within 12" to guarantee rapid fire.
20 warriors 40 Shots at rapid fire with -2 (Merphrit with -1 AP); hitting on 3+ (give +1 strat hitting on 2+)
33 hits, 16.667 wounds vs T4 at -2 ap; 11 wounds,
22 Wounds on T3, -2 AP, thats no saves for lots of chaff hordes
For me this doesn't really sound super impressive. That 20 man bomb has cost 240 + supporting character, so in excess of 300 points. Killing 22 chaff models is what, 100 or so points worth? They do reasonably well against MEQ, but then they aren't really prevalent atm. In any case, you'll be screened out so struggle to get within rapid range of anything worthwhile I think.
I am thinking of this as an army, debating which dynasty I should swing towards. Numbers in parenthesis are how many I want to field, the range is due to the fact I don't have the codex yet and haven't full mathed out the points. Point range usually lands 1500-2000 based on the game.
My Bench for swaps:
Orikan
Anni barge (if I dont use CCB)
Wraiths (3)
Tesla Ark
Deathmarks (10)
Spyder
Stalker
Heavy Dest (2)
Dest Lord
Monolith
More warriors
Leaning towards Nephrekh for deep strike destroyers, advance and shoot tomb blades, and fast moving lychguard. Debating if I am better off with Mephrit because I use deceiver and can teleport destroyers turn 1 as easily as I can deep strike. Thinking of buying 2 boxes of immortals and replacing one squad of warriors. I may try to squeeze in the Tess Ark just because I love the model. Any advice?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Nick Nanavati's proposed build
Mephrit Battalion
Anrakyr 167
Szeraz 143
Overlord- warscythe, veil, res orb 130
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
17 Warriors 204
Deceiver 225
Transcendant C’tan 225
Mephrit Super heavy
Tesseract Vault 496
Meh. Not sure I like that list. You are throwing the Vault out there on its lonesome and what? Slogging everything else?
Deceiver and Veil are both in the list. You can get on the board quite easily.
Veil brings one dude and one infantry unit. That isn't a lot of pressure.
Did you see the list I posted? That is what I am leaning towards, because it has awesome models and a lot of up-front pressure out of the gate... even if it is probably not at all a fine-tuned list. lol
Thanks, good point. I haven't played since 7th and I brought 9 destroyers for my cult so I was mixing in my mind that they were one unit (not 3 units of 3).
If they update it to include the rest of the relics I'll add it to the top post.
On my end, it says the file is corrupt. Are you guys having the same issue?
I'm pretty excited to try out this new codex. It looks like a blast, although I don't own nearly enough Tomb Blades or Destroyers. If I can do it tonight, I'm going to try spamming blobs of warriors with Imotekh plus the auto pass morale trait.
On my end, it says the file is corrupt. Are you guys having the same issue?
I'm pretty excited to try out this new codex. It looks like a blast, although I don't own nearly enough Tomb Blades or Destroyers. If I can do it tonight, I'm going to try spamming blobs of warriors with Imotekh plus the auto pass morale trait.
It worked ok for me, you just download it as a zip, extract it somewhere, then in Battlescribe manage your sources, go to where to where you extracted it to, browse down the folders until you get to necrons.catz, select it and you are off to the races.It's still missing the relics and warlord traits, but the points seem right.
Also in the "official" battlescribe repository they've added a new branch for the necron codex, which was updated an hour ago. I'll get that one loaded and let you guys know if it's functional,
*Edit*
Seems to be working, here is a 1650 list I'm working on for a local tournament:
Sorry (not sorry) to say, but the tesseract vault is very good. 4 tesla spheres is decent, but with three powers of the Ctan, it will be handing out mortal wounds like they were going out of style. Like 12+ mortal wounds a round under less than ideal circumstances, more if you have tight groups of opponents and/or are willing to dump some CP into it.
Named characters cannot get Artifacts!!!
1st is Free, 2nd costs 1CP, 3rd cost 2CP.
- Nightmare Shroud: +1 save characteristic, enemies get -1 Ld within 6"
"C" Can lower saves for the Overlord to 2+, better choices available.
- Orb of Eternity: Replaces Res Orb. +1 to the result.
"B" Even if you spend 1CP to get this you still get a better result than from "Enhanced Reanimation Protocol" Stratagem that costs 2CP.
- Gauntlet of Conflagrator: One use only. 8" Pistol 1. Roll a D6 for each model in the target unit within 8". MW on each roll of 6.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voidreaper: Replaces War/Voidscythe. Wounds on 2+ unless targeting vehicles, in which case it has S7. (AP -4, D3)
"B" Very good CC weapon, but do you want to be in CC?
- Veil of Darkness: Bearer and 1 dynasty infantry unit within 3" are removed and can deepstrike 9" away from enemy (unit must be within 6" of bearer)
"A" Maybe the best default Artifact available, gives much needed mobility, good on bubble wrapped characters like Lord or even a Cryptek if the Overlord has a Artifact.
- Lightning Field: 4++. Roll a D6 for enemy units within 1" of the bearer at the start of the fight phase. A MW on 4+
"C" Overlords have a 4++, Cryptek and Lords are really too weak for CC.
"A" The best upgrade for a CCB as it has no invulnerable save. CCB has the largest base so most likely to benefit from the "at the start of fight phase" MW on 4+ roll on all models within 1", its a flyer so flying over and positioning to maximize potential targets is advisable.
- Nanoscarab Casket. Replaces Phylactery. Regains D3 rather than 1, during both your and opponents turn. First time bearer is slain, on 4+ he is set back up at tend of phase, with D6 wounds remaining.
"A" Exellent choice for the (only unnamed character with Phylactery) Destroyer. Doubles the wound regeneration and gives a free enhanced "Resurrection Protocol" stratagem worth 1CP with D6 wounds instead of 1 wound. Can be resurrected a second time by "Resurrection Protocol" for 1CP.
- Sempiternal Weave. Infantry only. +1T and +1W.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voltaic Staff. Mephrit Relic. Repalces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 3 S6 AP3 D2 / User AP2 D1
"B" Good against multi wound, a wound roll of 6+ gives extra MW "A" Combined with Warlord trait "Merciless Tyrant" increases range by 6" to 18" and may target a Character! Especially good on a Destroyer Lord as he gets to re-roll to hit and to wound, increasing the chance of rolling 6+ wound for MW.
- Blood Scythe. Novokh Relic. Replaces War/Voidscythe. +2 S, AP-4, D2, +D3 Attacks.
"B" A good choice for a CC Character.
- Abyssal Staff. Sauthek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 1. Hits automatically, roll 3D6 if a unit is hit in the shooting phase: equal or greater than LD and unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. (AP-2 D1 in melee)
"C" Weak, should be called the Abysmal Staff. (Honestly should have been a D6MW and then a "B").
- The Solar Staff. Nephrek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 6, S5 AP3 D1 / AP2 D1. If enemy infantry is hit in shooting phase,on 4+ they are blinded and cannot overwatch and suffers -1 to hit for rest of turn.
"B" Good for a shooty Character.
- Timesplinter Cloak. Nihilak Relic. Once per battle, re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll, or damage roll for the bearer. 5+++.
"A" Fantastic, essentially one Free reroll worth 1 CP and a FNP 5+++
I do some mathammer for cc necron unit. For big target (7T, 2sv) voidreaper overlord have the best d per point. Better then lychguard, nightbringer and other hq. So why we dont want cc with him? Especialy i like heroic intervention with my char. Hit in opponent turn, dont get any hit and flat out in my turn to clear shooting way.
Grimgold wrote: Also in the "official" battlescribe repository they've added a new branch for the necron codex, which was updated an hour ago. I'll get that one loaded and let you guys know if it's functional,
Named characters cannot get Artifacts!!!
1st is Free, 2nd costs 1CP, 3rd cost 2CP.
- Nightmare Shroud: +1 save characteristic, enemies get -1 Ld within 6"
"C" Can lower saves for the Overlord to 2+, better choices available.
- Orb of Eternity: Replaces Res Orb. +1 to the result.
"B" Even if you spend 1CP to get this you still get a better result than from "Enhanced Reanimation Protocol" Stratagem that costs 2CP.
- Gauntlet of Conflagrator: One use only. 8" Pistol 1. Roll a D6 for each model in the target unit within 8". MW on each roll of 6.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voidreaper: Replaces War/Voidscythe. Wounds on 2+ unless targeting vehicles, in which case it has S7. (AP -4, D3)
"B" Very good CC weapon, but do you want to be in CC?
- Veil of Darkness: Bearer and 1 dynasty infantry unit within 3" are removed and can deepstrike 9" away from enemy (unit must be within 6" of bearer)
"A" Maybe the best default Artifact available, gives much needed mobility, good on bubble wrapped characters like Lord or even a Cryptek if the Overlord has a Artifact.
- Lightning Field: 4++. Roll a D6 for enemy units within 1" of the bearer at the start of the fight phase. A MW on 4+
"C" Overlords have a 4++, Cryptek and Lords are really too weak for CC.
"A" The best upgrade for a CCB as it has no invulnerable save. CCB has the largest base so most likely to benefit from the "at the start of fight phase" MW on 4+ roll on all models within 1", its a flyer so flying over and positioning to maximize potential targets is advisable.
- Nanoscarab Casket. Replaces Phylactery. Regains D3 rather than 1, during both your and opponents turn. First time bearer is slain, on 4+ he is set back up at tend of phase, with D6 wounds remaining.
"A" Exellent choice for the (only unnamed character with Phylactery) Destroyer. Doubles the wound regeneration and gives a free enhanced "Resurrection Protocol" stratagem worth 1CP with D6 wounds instead of 1 wound. Can be resurrected a second time by "Resurrection Protocol" for 1CP.
- Sempiternal Weave. Infantry only. +1T and +1W.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voltaic Staff. Mephrit Relic. Repalces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 3 S6 AP3 D2 / User AP2 D1
"B" Good against multi wound, a wound roll of 6+ gives extra MW "A" Combined with Warlord trait "Merciless Tyrant" increases range by 6" to 18" and may target a Character! Especially good on a Destroyer Lord as he gets to re-roll to hit and to wound, increasing the chance of rolling 6+ wound for MW.
- Blood Scythe. Novokh Relic. Replaces War/Voidscythe. +2 S, AP-4, D2, +D3 Attacks.
"B" A good choice for a CC Character.
- Abyssal Staff. Sauthek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 1. Hits automatically, roll 3D6 if a unit is hit in the shooting phase: equal or greater than LD and unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. (AP-2 D1 in melee)
"C" Weak, should be called the Abysmal Staff. (Honestly should have been a D6MW and then a "B").
- The Solar Staff. Nephrek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 6, S5 AP3 D1 / AP2 D1. If enemy infantry is hit in shooting phase,on 4+ they are blinded and cannot overwatch and suffers -1 to hit for rest of turn.
"B" Good for a shooty Character.
- Timesplinter Cloak. Nihilak Relic. Once per battle, re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll, or damage roll for the bearer. 5+++.
"A" Fantastic, essentially one Free reroll worth 1 CP and a FNP 5+++
I do some mathammer for cc necron unit. For big target (7T, 2sv) voidreaper overlord have the best d per point. Better then lychguard, nightbringer and other hq. So why we dont want cc with him? Especialy i like heroic intervention with my char. Hit in opponent turn, dont get any hit and flat out in my turn to clear shooting way.
It's an awkward situation. Our Characters are good at Combat, but putting them there isn't the best idea. They're either slow on foot, at which point taking a Melee Artifact won't come up in a bunch of games, or it's a CCB or DLord. The DLord isn't as good because he hits on 3+, and the CCB really wants to take Lightning Field since it doesn't start with an Invuln.
Once your dude gets into melee, they have to survive. Now, he or she might do work against the big T7 2+ baddie, but will probably get punked in response if it doesn't die in one round. 3+/4++/5W isn't super squishy, but it's not really survivable either, especially against things like Flyrants, Custodes Bikes, or a Primarch. Might as well put in the stuff that is less important overall, or at least can rez if it takes a beating.
Alright, I have changed up my 2K list. I plan on using it this weekend in a couple games. I'll let you guys know how it works. Not sure who I'm up against, but I feel the list is pretty well-rounded. Here is what I'm working with:
Named characters cannot get Artifacts!!!
1st is Free, 2nd costs 1CP, 3rd cost 2CP.
- Nightmare Shroud: +1 save characteristic, enemies get -1 Ld within 6"
"C" Can lower saves for the Overlord to 2+, better choices available.
- Orb of Eternity: Replaces Res Orb. +1 to the result.
"B" Even if you spend 1CP to get this you still get a better result than from "Enhanced Reanimation Protocol" Stratagem that costs 2CP.
- Gauntlet of Conflagrator: One use only. 8" Pistol 1. Roll a D6 for each model in the target unit within 8". MW on each roll of 6.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voidreaper: Replaces War/Voidscythe. Wounds on 2+ unless targeting vehicles, in which case it has S7. (AP -4, D3)
"B" Very good CC weapon, but do you want to be in CC?
- Veil of Darkness: Bearer and 1 dynasty infantry unit within 3" are removed and can deepstrike 9" away from enemy (unit must be within 6" of bearer)
"A" Maybe the best default Artifact available, gives much needed mobility, good on bubble wrapped characters like Lord or even a Cryptek if the Overlord has a Artifact.
- Lightning Field: 4++. Roll a D6 for enemy units within 1" of the bearer at the start of the fight phase. A MW on 4+
"C" Overlords have a 4++, Cryptek and Lords are really too weak for CC.
"A" The best upgrade for a CCB as it has no invulnerable save. CCB has the largest base so most likely to benefit from the "at the start of fight phase" MW on 4+ roll on all models within 1", its a flyer so flying over and positioning to maximize potential targets is advisable.
- Nanoscarab Casket. Replaces Phylactery. Regains D3 rather than 1, during both your and opponents turn. First time bearer is slain, on 4+ he is set back up at tend of phase, with D6 wounds remaining.
"A" Exellent choice for the (only unnamed character with Phylactery) Destroyer. Doubles the wound regeneration and gives a free enhanced "Resurrection Protocol" stratagem worth 1CP with D6 wounds instead of 1 wound. Can be resurrected a second time by "Resurrection Protocol" for 1CP.
- Sempiternal Weave. Infantry only. +1T and +1W.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voltaic Staff. Mephrit Relic. Repalces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 3 S6 AP3 D2 / User AP2 D1
"B" Good against multi wound, a wound roll of 6+ gives extra MW "A" Combined with Warlord trait "Merciless Tyrant" increases range by 6" to 18" and may target a Character! Especially good on a Destroyer Lord as he gets to re-roll to hit and to wound, increasing the chance of rolling 6+ wound for MW.
- Blood Scythe. Novokh Relic. Replaces War/Voidscythe. +2 S, AP-4, D2, +D3 Attacks.
"B" A good choice for a CC Character.
- Abyssal Staff. Sauthek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 1. Hits automatically, roll 3D6 if a unit is hit in the shooting phase: equal or greater than LD and unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. (AP-2 D1 in melee)
"C" Weak, should be called the Abysmal Staff. (Honestly should have been a D6MW and then a "B").
- The Solar Staff. Nephrek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 6, S5 AP3 D1 / AP2 D1. If enemy infantry is hit in shooting phase,on 4+ they are blinded and cannot overwatch and suffers -1 to hit for rest of turn.
"B" Good for a shooty Character.
- Timesplinter Cloak. Nihilak Relic. Once per battle, re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll, or damage roll for the bearer. 5+++.
"A" Fantastic, essentially one Free reroll worth 1 CP and a FNP 5+++
I do some mathammer for cc necron unit. For big target (7T, 2sv) voidreaper overlord have the best d per point. Better then lychguard, nightbringer and other hq. So why we dont want cc with him? Especialy i like heroic intervention with my char. Hit in opponent turn, dont get any hit and flat out in my turn to clear shooting way.
It's an awkward situation. Our Characters are good at Combat, but putting them there isn't the best idea. They're either slow on foot, at which point taking a Melee Artifact won't come up in a bunch of games, or it's a CCB or DLord. The DLord isn't as good because he hits on 3+, and the CCB really wants to take Lightning Field since it doesn't start with an Invuln.
Once your dude gets into melee, they have to survive. Now, he or she might do work against the big T7 2+ baddie, but will probably get punked in response if it doesn't die in one round. 3+/4++/5W isn't super squishy, but it's not really survivable either, especially against things like Flyrants, Custodes Bikes, or a Primarch. Might as well put in the stuff that is less important overall, or at least can rez if it takes a beating.
What about Novokh DLord? Fixes low hit problem, arm him with Bloodsythe and maybe Casket - thats a monster CC machine. Really toying with it and an all Novokh force (given up on trying to cp whore the new codex).
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Alright, I have changed up my 2K list. I plan on using it this weekend in a couple games. I'll let you guys know how it works. Not sure who I'm up against, but I feel the list is pretty well-rounded. Here is what I'm working with:
TOTAL POINTS - 1,991 TOTAL COMMAND POINTS - 8 (Battle Forged [3], Battalion [3], Outrider [1], Imotekh [1])
Still not 100% sure on Sautekh for the Outrider. Might possibly switch this to Nephrekh.
My worry would be that you don't have much in the way of CC, and that necron armies generally work best when mixing CC and ranged.
Well that's the thought anyway, 8th ed is a different animal from all of the previous necron incarnations, so a straight gunline cron force might be able to hold its own against other gunline armies. Still against other gunline armies you'll be fighting at a reach disadvantage, with very little in the way of backline disruption. Let us know how it turns out, as the thinking about how a cron force should be structured is pretty far from settled.
Named characters cannot get Artifacts!!!
1st is Free, 2nd costs 1CP, 3rd cost 2CP.
- Nightmare Shroud: +1 save characteristic, enemies get -1 Ld within 6"
"C" Can lower saves for the Overlord to 2+, better choices available.
- Orb of Eternity: Replaces Res Orb. +1 to the result.
"B" Even if you spend 1CP to get this you still get a better result than from "Enhanced Reanimation Protocol" Stratagem that costs 2CP.
- Gauntlet of Conflagrator: One use only. 8" Pistol 1. Roll a D6 for each model in the target unit within 8". MW on each roll of 6.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voidreaper: Replaces War/Voidscythe. Wounds on 2+ unless targeting vehicles, in which case it has S7. (AP -4, D3)
"B" Very good CC weapon, but do you want to be in CC?
- Veil of Darkness: Bearer and 1 dynasty infantry unit within 3" are removed and can deepstrike 9" away from enemy (unit must be within 6" of bearer)
"A" Maybe the best default Artifact available, gives much needed mobility, good on bubble wrapped characters like Lord or even a Cryptek if the Overlord has a Artifact.
- Lightning Field: 4++. Roll a D6 for enemy units within 1" of the bearer at the start of the fight phase. A MW on 4+
"C" Overlords have a 4++, Cryptek and Lords are really too weak for CC.
"A" The best upgrade for a CCB as it has no invulnerable save. CCB has the largest base so most likely to benefit from the "at the start of fight phase" MW on 4+ roll on all models within 1", its a flyer so flying over and positioning to maximize potential targets is advisable.
- Nanoscarab Casket. Replaces Phylactery. Regains D3 rather than 1, during both your and opponents turn. First time bearer is slain, on 4+ he is set back up at tend of phase, with D6 wounds remaining.
"A" Exellent choice for the (only unnamed character with Phylactery) Destroyer. Doubles the wound regeneration and gives a free enhanced "Resurrection Protocol" stratagem worth 1CP with D6 wounds instead of 1 wound. Can be resurrected a second time by "Resurrection Protocol" for 1CP.
- Sempiternal Weave. Infantry only. +1T and +1W.
"D" Much better choices available.
- Voltaic Staff. Mephrit Relic. Repalces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 3 S6 AP3 D2 / User AP2 D1
"B" Good against multi wound, a wound roll of 6+ gives extra MW "A" Combined with Warlord trait "Merciless Tyrant" increases range by 6" to 18" and may target a Character! Especially good on a Destroyer Lord as he gets to re-roll to hit and to wound, increasing the chance of rolling 6+ wound for MW.
- Blood Scythe. Novokh Relic. Replaces War/Voidscythe. +2 S, AP-4, D2, +D3 Attacks.
"B" A good choice for a CC Character.
- Abyssal Staff. Sauthek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 1. Hits automatically, roll 3D6 if a unit is hit in the shooting phase: equal or greater than LD and unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. (AP-2 D1 in melee)
"C" Weak, should be called the Abysmal Staff. (Honestly should have been a D6MW and then a "B").
- The Solar Staff. Nephrek Relic. Replaces Staff of Light. 12" Assault 6, S5 AP3 D1 / AP2 D1. If enemy infantry is hit in shooting phase,on 4+ they are blinded and cannot overwatch and suffers -1 to hit for rest of turn.
"B" Good for a shooty Character.
- Timesplinter Cloak. Nihilak Relic. Once per battle, re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll, or damage roll for the bearer. 5+++.
"A" Fantastic, essentially one Free reroll worth 1 CP and a FNP 5+++
I do some mathammer for cc necron unit. For big target (7T, 2sv) voidreaper overlord have the best d per point. Better then lychguard, nightbringer and other hq. So why we dont want cc with him? Especialy i like heroic intervention with my char. Hit in opponent turn, dont get any hit and flat out in my turn to clear shooting way.
It's an awkward situation. Our Characters are good at Combat, but putting them there isn't the best idea. They're either slow on foot, at which point taking a Melee Artifact won't come up in a bunch of games, or it's a CCB or DLord. The DLord isn't as good because he hits on 3+, and the CCB really wants to take Lightning Field since it doesn't start with an Invuln.
Once your dude gets into melee, they have to survive. Now, he or she might do work against the big T7 2+ baddie, but will probably get punked in response if it doesn't die in one round. 3+/4++/5W isn't super squishy, but it's not really survivable either, especially against things like Flyrants, Custodes Bikes, or a Primarch. Might as well put in the stuff that is less important overall, or at least can rez if it takes a beating.
What about Novokh DLord? Fixes low hit problem, arm him with Bloodsythe and maybe Casket - thats a monster CC machine. Really toying with it and an all Novokh force (given up on trying to cp whore the new codex).
Don't Destroyer Lords still have a reroll of 1 to hit? If it only applies to the shooting phase....never mind. I was pretty sure his extra attack with the reroll made him hit more often than the regular Overlord.
Regardless, the best way to run him is as a ghetto Celestine I think. Use him as a way to get into it with something you don't want shooting, and either keep it bogged down or hope they disengage so you can do the same to another unit, and let nature take its course with the Casket and the Strategems as necessary.
Huh, weird. I could load the other one just fine, but I can't figure out how to make this one work...
it's probably a versioning thing, go to manage data, click download new data, and then make sure you check the box for delete the existing data. That will get you back to Necron v20, after that just extract the zip file somewhere and open the file for necrons.cat. At least that's what I had to do
So I tried a Sautekh silver tide list at 2000 points VS Tau under the new rules:
Spoiler:
Imotekh
Cryptec with Chronometron and Staff
60 Necron warriors
1 Ghost Ark
2 Doomsday Ark
1 Transcendent C'tan
9 Scarabs
7 Scarabs
Between stratagems and buffs, the warriors were extremely survivable. Imotekh was an all star, buffing two units at once and giving an extra command point. The auto pass morale trait is a godsend.
But in the end, I just didn't have enough firepower to take down the larger Riptides. Doomsday Arks missed most of their shots.
Do you guys have any suggestions? Swapping a squad of Warriors to Immortals doesn't sound like a bad start. I unfortunately don't own any Destroyers, but maybe Wraiths could be better than the Scarabs?
Edit: I've been informed that Imotekh can't take the no morale failure trait. Great. I guess I'll run a normal Overlord instead.
Don't Destroyer Lords still have a reroll of 1 to hit? If it only applies to the shooting phase....never mind. I was pretty sure his extra attack with the reroll made him hit more often than the regular Overlord.
Regardless, the best way to run him is as a ghetto Celestine I think. Use him as a way to get into it with something you don't want shooting, and either keep it bogged down or hope they disengage so you can do the same to another unit, and let nature take its course with the Casket and the Strategems as necessary.
Even with 1 to hit reroll DL loose with OL:
DL 4A*4/6*7/6=3,(1)hit, 3,(1)hit/121pts=0,0257hit/pts
OL 3A*5/6=2,5hit, 2,5hit/95=0,0263hit/pts
So which combo do you think is better for a character-hunting Novokh Destroyer Lord or CCB? (Think as a counter to Dawneagle Captains)
-Blood Scythe, phylactery (if D-Lord), Honourable Combatant
OR
-Void Reaper, phylactery (if D-Lord), either Honourable Combatant or Crimson Haze
Essentially, it boils down to Void Reaper vs Blood Scythe.
Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote: So which combo do you think is better for a character-hunting Novokh Destroyer Lord or CCB? (Think as a counter to Dawneagle Captains)
-Blood Scythe, phylactery (if D-Lord), Honourable Combatant
OR
-Void Reaper, phylactery (if D-Lord), either Honourable Combatant or Crimson Haze
Essentially, it boils down to Void Reaper vs Blood Scythe.
It need some math but Honourable Combatant combine better with Void Reaper - better wound roll and more D.
Crimson Haze can be better combine with Blood Scythe (more atack = more 6 toHit) but it probably still wors then Void Reaper with HC.
Edit: I've been informed that Imotekh can't take the no morale failure trait. Great. I guess I'll run a normal Overlord instead.
Who said that? There's no reason he cant take it. Its a generic trait not linked to a dynasty. Immotekh being a named character stops him from taking a relic. But the only traits he cant take are the non-sautekh specific dynasty traits.
Edit: I've been informed that Imotekh can't take the no morale failure trait. Great. I guess I'll run a normal Overlord instead.
Who said that? There's no reason he cant take it. Its a generic trait not linked to a dynasty. Immotekh being a named character stops him from taking a relic. But the only traits he cant take are the non-sautekh specific dynasty traits.
Named Characters have to take the trait associated with their subfaction (Named Characters who have no associated subfaction like Szeras have their trait specifically called out). This is a rule common to all the "major faction" rule books.
Really considering how mediocre the Necron CC roster is, having a Overlord dedicated for CC instead of using him to maximize his boosting ability I think is a waste of points.
MWDB on a 10 Immortals with Tesla gives you extra 10 hits, with Mephrit this is 10 hits with S5 AP1 D1 inside 12". Double this with a second squad and 1CP. Plus his SoL with 2,5 hits with S5 AP2 D1. With Merciless Tyrant and Voltaic Staff and its Character-killing ability doing 18" 2.5 hits S6 AP3 D2 with 0.5 MW.
Imho the most powerful CC unit is probably a CCB w/ Warscythe, Lightning field and Tesla. Then add Warlord trait:
Enduring Will for a super tank with: Fly M12", T6, 8W, 3+/4++/QS, Living Metal (add Cryptek w/cloak for d3 repair) AND -1 damage for every wound that gets through. That deals one MW to all within 1" and then gets 2,5 hits with S7 AP4 D2. IF he dies, have a Cryptek with cloak close by and use Resurrection Protocol.
If only Lightning field was an ability... Then getting Warlord Trait: No4. Thrall of the Silent King (+3" to all ability's) would extend Lightning field to 4"
Maybe Crimson Haze (Model within 6" gets extra hit on roll of 6) if you have a lot of CC troops. but he will die faster.
----
Also regarding DLord re-roll. If you mathammer this then a DLord with 4A WS3+ and re-roll 1 hits more than a OL with 3A WS2+.... 20% more hits. I ran it through this: http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/ More importantly the DLord has the SPEED to get into CC and better chance of withstanding damage with Phylactery or even better Nanoscarab Casket. DLord is probably the second best CC Overlord.
@ Lord of Nonsensical Crap
I would say CCB due to being just incredibly tough (use the setup above with -1 wound trait). CCB has better speed too, 24", Tesla and Warscythe (3 wounds vs Captain).
Same stats but ~2 hits less than Blood Scythe (5,7 wounds vs Captain) but -1 wound is better. The Lightning Field combined with surviving many rounds is the best CC weapon!
Voidreaper (5 wounds vs Captain) is better than warscythe, but the again Lightning field.
@ Inevitableq
"If a named charecter is your warlord they must be given the associated Warlord Traitof their Dynasty"
Imotekh must take "Hyperlogical Strategist"!
So, for Tesla Immortals, if we are decided that their strength comes from being MWBD’ed, is the choice for a second HQ (on the assumption more Auras are valued):
1. Cryptek for (survivability or speed) + RP, versus
2. Lord for Damage output
At 11% increased throughput from his re-roll 1s to wound aura, he is equivalent to adding 2/3 of an immortal to each Tesla squad near him.
Kuguar6 wrote:As i math above: DL do more hit but coste more and have less hit per point then OL.
Yes, but DLord has the speed to get into CC, the Phylactery for survival AND more CC attacks for 36 points. Gunline is much more able to inflict hits than CC unit. The problem with Lychguards f.ex. is the low movement. A shooty army can just kite Necron CCOL/infantry.
sieGermans wrote:So, for Tesla Immortals, if we are decided that their strength comes from being MWBD’ed, is the choice for a second HQ (on the assumption more Auras are valued):
1. Cryptek for (survivability or speed) + RP, versus 2. Lord for Damage output
At 11% increased throughput from his re-roll 1s to wound aura, he is equivalent to adding 2/3 of an immortal to each Tesla squad near him.
Honestly, I like all 3 as long as you can have 2 or more units in contact with them, only one model from each squad needs to be inside the bubbles. It may be argued that a Battalion with Lord and Cryptek and 3 infantry units is better off than a Battalion with overlord and a Lord or Cryptek and 3 infantry. MWBD only affects one unit and only really shines with Tesla.
sieGermans wrote: So, for Tesla Immortals, if we are decided that their strength comes from being MWBD’ed, is the choice for a second HQ (on the assumption more Auras are valued):
1. Cryptek for (survivability or speed) + RP, versus
2. Lord for Damage output
At 11% increased throughput from his re-roll 1s to wound aura, he is equivalent to adding 2/3 of an immortal to each Tesla squad near him.
I dont get your math but for 2k point list you probably take 3 hq and can take one of all kind. Just they power grown if you take more infrantry.
For lack of infrantry list you get less hq and only cloactek realy help.
In index list we often take 5 tessla immo for objective controll. In codex we can take 3 tomb blade instade. They can be cheeper with particle beamer - 24*3=72. They can be more survability with shield or shadow. They can do more hit with tessla or gauss. And they are faster. But they arent troops.
Do you think its good tactic to take 1 or 3 min squad of blade for objective grabing? With wich items set? 1 shield and 1 shadow?
sieGermans wrote: So, for Tesla Immortals, if we are decided that their strength comes from being MWBD’ed, is the choice for a second HQ (on the assumption more Auras are valued):
1. Cryptek for (survivability or speed) + RP, versus
2. Lord for Damage output
At 11% increased throughput from his re-roll 1s to wound aura, he is equivalent to adding 2/3 of an immortal to each Tesla squad near him.
I dont get your math but for 2k point list you probably take 3 hq and can take one of all kind. Just they power grown if you take more infrantry.
For lack of infrantry list you get less hq and only cloactek realy help.
In index list we often take 5 tessla immo for objective controll. In codex we can take 3 tomb blade instade. They can be cheeper with particle beamer - 24*3=72. They can be more survability with shield or shadow. They can do more hit with tessla or gauss. And they are faster. But they arent troops.
Do you think its good tactic to take 1 or 3 min squad of blade for objective grabing? With wich items set? 1 shield and 1 shadow?
I actually don't think its a great plan. I believe they'd become first blood bait with something akin to autocannons or krak missiles, which do more than 1 damage, and thus would only require 3 successful wounds.
sieGermans wrote: Aye, but Imotekh is nearly mandatory in Sautekh to reliably trigger an Alpha strike Methodical Destruction... and he MWBDs two units.
Mortal wounds do not count as "unsaved wounds", unsaved wounds suggests having to make a save, and in no wording for any fnp etc that counts mortal wounds uses "unsaved wounds", only "inflicted wounds" etc. You still need to shoot to trigger methodical destruction.
I had the same idea about 5 minutes into reading the leaked codex, but did some reading and couldn't find any wording that would be a precedent for "unsaved wounds" including mortal wounds
I think a Sautekh battalion benefits most from Imotekh or an overlord with a lord as the second HQ slot. You can then use illuminor szeras is the mandatory HQ in an outrider or spearhead detachment, regardless of dynasty code, to buff your warriors and immortals from the Sautekh battalion. Rather than spend 85 points on a tax-cryptek or 131 on what might be an out of place d.lord you get a ranged AT weapon (lacking in this codex), the usual cryptek bonus and a random buff for three infantry squads (ideally +1T).
Anrakyr and Szeras look like they're designed with exactly this in mind given the wording of their buff auras, and are costed appropriately. I don't think the extra points you pay for either are worth it in normal battalions.
CCB, w/ Warscythe, Tesla, Lightning Field & Enduring Will (162). First turn get MWBD on the Tesla Immortals, then switch it to the Lychguard unless the enemy has poor/no armor saves.
Cryptek w/ SoL & Chronometron. (95) Can advance 6" and shoot -1... Maybe give this guy the "Solar Staff" to eliminate over-watch for the CC guys and extra dakka?
10 Immortals Tesla (170) Can advance 7" and shoot without -1 with MWBD 10 Immortals Gauss (170) Deepstrike. Or if on the table just advance 6" and just get into rapid fire range ASAP.
10 Immortals Gauss (170) Deepstrike. Or if on the table just advance 6" and just get into rapid fire range ASAP.
10 Lychguard w/ Disperson shields & Hyperphase sword (340) Warscythe is good too with +1S and +1D but 4++ just makes them more durable in CC against elites. Going for durability to utilize RP. Also If necessary they can take wounds for the CCB to make him almost immortal!
Outrider -Nephrekh- (extra 6-7" advance & ignore terrain and models) (+1CP) 228 pts
Cryptek w/ SoL & Canoptek Cloak (85) Repair the CCB and backup +1 to RP.
4 Scarabs (52) Can move 16" every turn. Just to Tarpit and use "Self Destruction" Stratagem.
4 Scarabs (52) Can move 16" every turn. Just to Tarpit and use "Self Destruction" Stratagem.
3 Scarabs (39) Can move 16" every turn. Just to Tarpit and use "Self Destruction" Stratagem.
Spearhead -Sautekh- (Move & shoot without penalty or Advance for -1 to hit) (+1CP) 664 pts
Cryptek w/ SoL & Canoptek Cloak (85) Just stay in cover and repair DDA.
DDA (193)
DDA (193)
DDA (193)
CP usage
3 CP in reserve: 2 CP for Morale tests & 1 CP for resurecting the CCB.
1 CP maybe for the Solar Staff?
1-2 CP for Deepstrike.
The rest for suicide Scarabs minimum 1 CP, as soon as possible to hopefully scare the opponent and get scarabs to be focused on.
sieGermans wrote: Aye, but Imotekh is nearly mandatory in Sautekh to reliably trigger an Alpha strike Methodical Destruction... and he MWBDs two units.
Mortal wounds do not count as "unsaved wounds", unsaved wounds suggests having to make a save, and in no wording for any fnp etc that counts mortal wounds uses "unsaved wounds", only "inflicted wounds" etc. You still need to shoot to trigger methodical destruction.
I had the same idea about 5 minutes into reading the leaked codex, but did some reading and couldn't find any wording that would be a precedent for "unsaved wounds" including mortal wounds
Good tip! I've been referring to this thread for guidance on the subject:
CCB, w/ Warscythe, Tesla, Lightning Field & Enduring Will (162). First turn get MWBD on the Tesla Immortals, then switch it to the Lychguard unless the enemy has poor/no armor saves.
Cryptek w/ SoL & Chronometron. (95) Can advance 6" and shoot -1... Maybe give this guy the "Solar Staff" to eliminate over-watch for the CC guys and extra dakka?
10 Immortals Tesla (170) Can advance 7" and shoot without -1 with MWBD 10 Immortals Gauss (170) Deepstrike. Or if on the table just advance 6" and just get into rapid fire range ASAP.
10 Immortals Gauss (170) Deepstrike. Or if on the table just advance 6" and just get into rapid fire range ASAP.
10 Lychguard w/ Disperson shields & Hyperphase sword (340) Warscythe is good too with +1S and +1D but 4++ just makes them more durable in CC against elites. Going for durability to utilize RP. Also If necessary they can take wounds for the CCB to make him almost immortal!
Outrider -Nephrekh- (extra 6-7" advance & ignore terrain and models) (+1CP) 228 pts
Cryptek w/ SoL & Canoptek Cloak (85) Repair the CCB and backup +1 to RP.
4 Scarabs (52) Can move 16" every turn. Just to Tarpit and use "Self Destruction" Stratagem.
4 Scarabs (52) Can move 16" every turn. Just to Tarpit and use "Self Destruction" Stratagem.
3 Scarabs (39) Can move 16" every turn. Just to Tarpit and use "Self Destruction" Stratagem.
Spearhead -Sautekh- (Move & shoot without penalty or Advance for -1 to hit) (+1CP) 664 pts
Cryptek w/ SoL & Canoptek Cloak (85) Just stay in cover and repair DDA.
DDA (193)
DDA (193)
DDA (193)
CP usage
3 CP in reserve: 2 CP for Morale tests & 1 CP for resurecting the CCB.
1 CP maybe for the Solar Staff?
1-2 CP for Deepstrike.
The rest for suicide Scarabs minimum 1 CP, as soon as possible to hopefully scare the opponent and get scarabs to be focused on.
been trying to do the same thing but have realised for a reliable cron CC army I'd need a Nightscythe for Lychguard.
If I remove Anraykr I can also put Flayed Ones on the NS (Novokh)
Spoiler:
Cryptek (Cloak) - 85
Overlord (Veil and scythe) - 95
sieGermans wrote: Aye, but Imotekh is nearly mandatory in Sautekh to reliably trigger an Alpha strike Methodical Destruction... and he MWBDs two units.
Mortal wounds do not count as "unsaved wounds", unsaved wounds suggests having to make a save, and in no wording for any fnp etc that counts mortal wounds uses "unsaved wounds", only "inflicted wounds" etc. You still need to shoot to trigger methodical destruction.
I had the same idea about 5 minutes into reading the leaked codex, but did some reading and couldn't find any wording that would be a precedent for "unsaved wounds" including mortal wounds
I disagree with your interpretation, if its true what you say then you can shoot a unit with NO armor save and wound it but would be unable to use Methodological Destruction. Also if you would shoot a unit with 6+ save with Gauss flayer (AP-1) they again do not get a armor save...
This essentially makes most units invulnerable to the stratagem when being targeted by units with AP.
-MW is a unsaved wound.
-FNP is a roll that allows you to ignore a wound.
This:
If a unit takes a wound and fails a save or mortal wound it has taken an unsaved wound.
Even if the unit has FNP and can ignore the wound, it has still received a unsaved wound.
In both cases Methodical Destruction can be used.
If a unit receives damage and makes a successful save, normal or invulnerable, the wound was never dealt and it can not be targeted by Methodological Destruction.
Shouldn't be made more complicated than it is tbh.
Arachnofiend wrote: Named Characters have to take the trait associated with their subfaction (Named Characters who have no associated subfaction like Szeras have their trait specifically called out). This is a rule common to all the "major faction" rule books.
Huh. Had to go back and look at the other Codices, but yeah, Craftworlds and Astra Militarum both explicitly state that named faction characters have to take the associated Warlord Trait. I hadn't noticed that before. Gonna have to make some recalculations...
Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote: So which combo do you think is better for a character-hunting Novokh Destroyer Lord or CCB? (Think as a counter to Dawneagle Captains)
-Blood Scythe, phylactery (if D-Lord), Honourable Combatant
OR
-Void Reaper, phylactery (if D-Lord), either Honourable Combatant or Crimson Haze
Essentially, it boils down to Void Reaper vs Blood Scythe.
Assuming a D-lord and that you are attacking something with between 4 and 6 toughness and a 3+.
Having more attacks didn't make up for having a harder time to wound and doing less damage per hit. I think the real competition for D-Lords is between the nanoscarab casket and void reaper, one jacks up your offense, and the other makes you very hard to kill. Hard to math though, but my gut tells me that a d-lord with a warscythe and honorable combatant is already a pretty beef combatant, and void reaper might be gilding the lily as it were. Where as a CC character is going to take a lot of shots, the extra healing and a CP free chance to come back with more than one wound if you get killed seems better for the long term. The nanoscarab casket also potentially allows you to come back twice, or have a 3/4th chance of coming back at least once.
CCB, w/ Warscythe, Tesla, Lightning Field & Enduring Will (162). First turn get MWBD on the Tesla Immortals, then switch it to the Lychguard unless the enemy has poor/no armor saves.
Cryptek w/ SoL & Chronometron. (95) Can advance 6" and shoot -1... Maybe give this guy the "Solar Staff" to eliminate over-watch for the CC guys and extra dakka?
10 Immortals Tesla (170) Can advance 7" and shoot without -1 with MWBD 10 Immortals Gauss (170) Deepstrike. Or if on the table just advance 6" and just get into rapid fire range ASAP.
10 Immortals Gauss (170) Deepstrike. Or if on the table just advance 6" and just get into rapid fire range ASAP.
10 Lychguard w/ Disperson shields & Hyperphase sword (340) Warscythe is good too with +1S and +1D but 4++ just makes them more durable in CC against elites. Going for durability to utilize RP. Also If necessary they can take wounds for the CCB to make him almost immortal!
Outrider -Nephrekh- (extra 6-7" advance & ignore terrain and models) (+1CP) 228 pts
Cryptek w/ SoL & Canoptek Cloak (85) Repair the CCB and backup +1 to RP.
4 Scarabs (52) Can move 16" every turn. Just to Tarpit and use "Self Destruction" Stratagem.
4 Scarabs (52) Can move 16" every turn. Just to Tarpit and use "Self Destruction" Stratagem.
3 Scarabs (39) Can move 16" every turn. Just to Tarpit and use "Self Destruction" Stratagem.
Spearhead -Sautekh- (Move & shoot without penalty or Advance for -1 to hit) (+1CP) 664 pts
Cryptek w/ SoL & Canoptek Cloak (85) Just stay in cover and repair DDA.
DDA (193)
DDA (193)
DDA (193)
CP usage
3 CP in reserve: 2 CP for Morale tests & 1 CP for resurecting the CCB.
1 CP maybe for the Solar Staff?
1-2 CP for Deepstrike.
The rest for suicide Scarabs minimum 1 CP, as soon as possible to hopefully scare the opponent and get scarabs to be focused on.
been trying to do the same thing but have realised for a reliable cron CC army I'd need a Nightscythe for Lychguard.
If I remove Anraykr I can also put Flayed Ones on the NS (Novokh)
Spoiler:
Cryptek (Cloak) - 85
Overlord (Veil and scythe) - 95
Anraykr & LG in NS, FO start with OL who will MWBD & Veil in the FO when NS is ready to invasion.
You are going for almost purly CC setup. The problem is with all deep-striking (9") shenanigans the chance of being able to successfully charge is very limited as average charge distance is ~7". If you fight a shooty army they can move away from you all the time.
Only reliable way of getting into charge range is Ghostwalk mantle (way too expensive) and Nightsythe (expensive and vulnerable to being shot down).
I also think its a weakness to have CC units with only 5" as they may come in and totally own one or even two units. But then what? Can they move fast enough to get into range to charge the next unit?
Initially looking at the codex the Novokh were the best. But now I'm thinking Novokh is mostly better for the Canoptek units as they have good movement range. But for CC infantry, Lychguard and Flayed ones with 5" its better to stick with Nephrekh, they cant shoot anyway.
Extra movement vs re-roll failed to hit:
-If a CC unit has to spend one extra round out of CC it negates any possible re-rolls and its not doing anything but possibly eating enemy fire.
Shield vs Scythe Lychguard:
-Shield provides better saves against Elite infantry (with AP weapons) and just as good against single wound units. Also expect enemy to fall back from CC and then shoot you to pieces, then you will be glad you have a Shield!
They are also cool and dangerous looking and likely to draw attention and fire.
Yes Anrakyr is very good, but then he needs to be with the CC units and normally you wouldn't have more than one unit bunched up on one target so the bonus is normally only for one unit. He does not have movement range to get at anything really and he cant benefit from Dynasty traits. I can also see him as a boosted overlord that can give normal Infantry (Warriors/Immortals) extra attacks against CC chaff and thus a deterrent against charge maybe. Throw in 5-10 FO for cheap CC support for him if he gets a chance to charge?
I see FO mostly useful for capturing and holding objectives as well as being a general Deepstrike threat simillar to Deathmarks. But cheaper and CC defense/attack for or from a Monolith.
By having a more balanced army you have a larger threat range and can adapt to more tactics. More chance of psychologically influencing the opponent.
Ofc. if you know who/what you are fighting you can custom-build for that.
Im not shure but are the Necron flyers really any good? I dont even plan on geting them tbh. I think they would have been "B" with 8-10W and QS.
Having more attacks didn't make up for having a harder time to wound and doing less damage per hit. I think the real competition for D-Lords is between the nanoscarab casket and void reaper, one jacks up your offense, and the other makes you very hard to kill. Hard to math though, but my gut tells me that a d-lord with a warscythe and honorable combatant is already a pretty beef combatant, and void reaper might be gilding the lily as it were. Where as a CC character is going to take a lot of shots, the extra healing and a CP free chance to come back with more than one wound if you get killed seems better for the long term. The nanoscarab casket also potentially allows you to come back twice, or have a 3/4th chance of coming back at least once.
Just to add to this, unless you are using void reaper, I think eternal madness would be the best trait for a "feth you fight me" style of D-lord of the Novokh dynasty.
So Vault got within 9" of 7+ enemy units and wreak havoc with double cosmic fire. Thats ideal situation for vault which requires that opponent advances to your part of the table cause vault is not fast enought by itself. In most situation i doubt it could bring its points back.
then bring the Deceiver so you can Deceiver bomb 12" away from your enemy models then just move it into position if your going 1st or place it defensively if going 2nd. Also, if you think it's movement is too slow then just advance it. You will have a -1 on your Tesla spheres but you can still use your C'tan powers. I can easily see the Vault getting at least it's points back in most games it will be used in. It will have more affect on horde type armies though rather then elite-style armies.
I dunno. It slings out a lot of mortal wounds too, potentially. That is good for dealing with elite armies too.
Also, here is a ....weird list. Trying to find a way to max out on the in-your-face possibilities. But I feel like my 156pt in Scarabs might be a waste and I don't have a Battalion, so I am going in with a paltry 5CP. But with Hyperlogical Strategist, it should offset it a bit (in theory).
Deceiver Bomb the Vault. Veil up the Chronotek and MWBD Immortals. Deep Strike the Destroyers. Tunnel in the Sentinels. That is a lot of stuff in the enemy's face very early, but I am not sure that is actually a worthwhile strategy at all! The Scarabs just form a perimeter for the Cloaktek and keep my CP regenerator safe and hold backfield objectives or whatever.
Bumping this garbage list for critique and ideas, as I am a Cron Noob.
It has vault. I approve. How many armies do oyu have BTW?
Mine are written. Thinking of comparing which one is more crazy when it comes to buying models
rvd1ofakind wrote: It has vault. I approve. How many armies do oyu have BTW?
Mine are written. Thinking of comparing which one is more crazy when it comes to buying models
Man... a lot. But I have a bad habit of buying one, getting pumped about it, then immediately losing all motivation and selling it. Like I did with my Eldar.
But I am hellbent on starting a damn Xenos army at this point!
rvd1ofakind wrote: It has vault. I approve. How many armies do oyu have BTW?
Mine are written. Thinking of comparing which one is more crazy when it comes to buying models
Man... a lot. But I have a bad habit of buying one, getting pumped about it, then immediately losing all motivation and selling it. Like I did with my Eldar.
But I am hellbent on starting a damn Xenos army at this point!
Don't worry, you aren't the only one. That is how I have come to own so many armies (some incomplete of course).
Luckily my Necrons are the most painted and complete! Can't wait to bust them out again.
Arachnofiend wrote: Named Characters have to take the trait associated with their subfaction (Named Characters who have no associated subfaction like Szeras have their trait specifically called out). This is a rule common to all the "major faction" rule books.
Huh. Had to go back and look at the other Codices, but yeah, Craftworlds and Astra Militarum both explicitly state that named faction characters have to take the associated Warlord Trait. I hadn't noticed that before. Gonna have to make some recalculations...
Would you mind telling me what page thats on in the craftworld codex? Ive now checked twice and havent seen it listed.
Arachnofiend wrote: Named Characters have to take the trait associated with their subfaction (Named Characters who have no associated subfaction like Szeras have their trait specifically called out). This is a rule common to all the "major faction" rule books.
Huh. Had to go back and look at the other Codices, but yeah, Craftworlds and Astra Militarum both explicitly state that named faction characters have to take the associated Warlord Trait. I hadn't noticed that before. Gonna have to make some recalculations...
Would you mind telling me what page thats on in the craftworld codex? Ive now checked twice and havent seen it listed.
Page 121, right above where the craftworld specific warlord traits are.
MarkM wrote: Why is everyone doing the easy stuff - Unit grading, math hammer on best weapons etc. and ignoring the difficult stuff?
This Codex has one huge glaring weakness - T1 board control.
We have no way to contest the open space between the armies; which means we have no easy way to survive a good Alpha.
Any army with scout or scout equivalents will lock up midfield, denying us good spots for our Alpha, and keeping their options wide open.
Do we have a way to stop an army from dropping every DS unit they have 21" from our baseline?
I played a horde CSM/Daemon list today and 30 Pinks, 40 Cultisits and 9 Obilterators will tear any army a new one.
Unless we can mitigate this sort of problem we are dead in the water.
Now I have only read the leaked codex - but I cannot see anyway to stop the above.
Please prove me wrong - I really want to start a new Necron army - but as it stands just don't see even a semi-competitive list.
Agreed.
Our vehicles are resilient, depending on what gets dropped in. But that's really about it. Spamming warriors, maybe, for screening and blocking deep strike locations? The veil relic could also be a good counter, at least against hordes. Dropping in Warriors in rapid fire range should mostly wipe at least one horde.
It's a tough question for sure, and I don't think we have good enough answers to it.
MarkM wrote: Why is everyone doing the easy stuff - Unit grading, math hammer on best weapons etc. and ignoring the difficult stuff?
This Codex has one huge glaring weakness - T1 board control.
We have no way to contest the open space between the armies; which means we have no easy way to survive a good Alpha.
Any army with scout or scout equivalents will lock up midfield, denying us good spots for our Alpha, and keeping their options wide open.
Do we have a way to stop an army from dropping every DS unit they have 21" from our baseline?
I played a horde CSM/Daemon list today and 30 Pinks, 40 Cultisits and 9 Obilterators will tear any army a new one.
Unless we can mitigate this sort of problem we are dead in the water.
Now I have only read the leaked codex - but I cannot see anyway to stop the above.
Please prove me wrong - I really want to start a new Necron army - but as it stands just don't see even a semi-competitive list.
Because everyones Meta is different and don't include filth like that. Not everyone is going to be up against lists like the one you stated. So, us unit grading, math hammering and choosing best weapons is for us to to understand what the best builds are before we go into the "harder" questions.
The only way to counter something like this and make sure you have some board control is to use the Deceivers Grand Illusion to re-deploy 1-4 units up the board before the enemy can get into position. Also, getting 1st turn can help quite a lot but infiltrating units and other units that have rules like it will hamper us quite badly.
MarkM wrote: Why is everyone doing the easy stuff - Unit grading, math hammer on best weapons etc. and ignoring the difficult stuff?
This Codex has one huge glaring weakness - T1 board control.
We have no way to contest the open space between the armies; which means we have no easy way to survive a good Alpha.
Any army with scout or scout equivalents will lock up midfield, denying us good spots for our Alpha, and keeping their options wide open.
Do we have a way to stop an army from dropping every DS unit they have 21" from our baseline?
I played a horde CSM/Daemon list today and 30 Pinks, 40 Cultisits and 9 Obilterators will tear any army a new one.
Unless we can mitigate this sort of problem we are dead in the water.
Now I have only read the leaked codex - but I cannot see anyway to stop the above.
Please prove me wrong - I really want to start a new Necron army - but as it stands just don't see even a semi-competitive list.
Because everyones Meta is different and don't include filth like that. Not everyone is going to be up against lists like the one you stated. So, us unit grading, math hammering and choosing best weapons is for us to to understand what the best builds are before we go into the "harder" questions.
The only way to counter something like this and make sure you have some board control is to use the Deceivers Grand Illusion to re-deploy 1-4 units up the board before the enemy can get into position. Also, getting 1st turn can help quite a lot but infiltrating units and other units that have rules like it will hamper us quite badly.
Not disagreeing with you but I don't think the deceiver will help here. Deceiver happens before the first turn is taken but after figuring out who is going first. This allows a lot of strategic shenanigans but units like scouts will already be placed and granting a large amount of board control at that point. Deceiver won't be able to fix that.
Myself how I am considering countering this is by taking scarabs and putting them as far forward as I can during deployment. A wall of scarabs are quite effective. Then I will take my warriors and put them 9" behind the scarabs, 2 large blobs of 20, with a cryptek with the cloak. Finally use the deceiver. If I roll well for deceiver it will allow me to reposition the force however I want from one flank to the other potentially putting some of my enemy's force completly out of position. Even on a poor roll I can move one squad of warriors and the 2nd will be moved with the cryptek to get into position.
If we get first turn advance the scarabs up and past the enemy "no man land" so that they are doing the same thing, stopping the enemy from having a good place to drop. Use the warriors to deal with enemy chaff that is now behind the scouts. Use big stuff to then go to town on whatever flank needs to be hit hardest. If we go second the scarabs will still move up and engage whatever dropped in and the warriors have more targets to work with.
Not the best solution but from theory hammer it's the best I can come up with. Feel free to replace warriors with immortals if you want as well, I just plan on running a ghost ark for double rp rolls. If my opponent focus fires and kills a single squad of warriors first turn then nothing shot at my DDA'S or vault or wraiths or whatever. Again it's theory hammer but what else can we do until the models hit the table?
Myself how I am considering countering this is by taking scarabs and putting them as far forward as I can during deployment. A wall of scarabs are quite effective. Then I will take my warriors and put them 9" behind the scarabs, 2 large blobs of 20, with a cryptek with the cloak. Finally use the deceiver. If I roll well for deceiver it will allow me to reposition the force however I want from one flank to the other potentially putting some of my enemy's force completly out of position. Even on a poor roll I can move one squad of warriors and the 2nd will be moved with the cryptek to get into position.
Any reason why the warriors are behind 9"? My understanding was that the sweet spot would typically be 3"
Myself how I am considering countering this is by taking scarabs and putting them as far forward as I can during deployment. A wall of scarabs are quite effective. Then I will take my warriors and put them 9" behind the scarabs, 2 large blobs of 20, with a cryptek with the cloak. Finally use the deceiver. If I roll well for deceiver it will allow me to reposition the force however I want from one flank to the other potentially putting some of my enemy's force completly out of position. Even on a poor roll I can move one squad of warriors and the 2nd will be moved with the cryptek to get into position.
Any reason why the warriors are behind 9"? My understanding was that the sweet spot would typically be 3"
To give as much room as possible to place your stuff but keep the opponent out.
MarkM wrote: Why is everyone doing the easy stuff - Unit grading, math hammer on best weapons etc. and ignoring the difficult stuff?
You start with the easy stuff, and since we've had "access" to our codex for just about two weeks, that's most of what we've had time for. The difficult stuff as you say will take games to work out.
MarkM wrote: This Codex has one huge glaring weakness - T1 board control. We have no way to contest the open space between the armies; which means we have no easy way to survive a good Alpha. Any army with scout or scout equivalents will lock up midfield, denying us good spots for our Alpha, and keeping their options wide open. Do we have a way to stop an army from dropping every DS unit they have 21" from our baseline?
Condensed for ease of response, The deceiver's grand illusion allows us to set up outside of our deployment zone, which give us a manner in which to hold no man's land from deep strikers. Another option is that we are the only army with counter deep strikers, On paper at least it seems like a good way to create a zone of control in the middle, wait until he drops his first unit, and then drop one or two of our own to disrupt further placement. When mixed with some denied flank and proper scarab placement we could lock certain types of opponents out of no man's land. Our screens are also fast enough to tarpit anyone who lands too closely.
I suppose the answer is a mix of things, we'll have to experiment to find out.
The Deceiver 'may' be of use if we get 1st turn. But even then many armies have the middle covered with 2-4 units of scout-like troops. So we have nowhere to go that's not within 12" of the enemy except in our own deployment zone.
Same for Deathmarks - counter DS yes - but more than 9" away. Again 3 enemy units in no-mans land means we can only drop in our own deployment area.
This means that unlike most other armies we cannot defend in depth as we only get 12" (a bit more in some scenarios) to deploy into and cannot make space for our own DS units.
If the Monolith and Invasion beams are meant to offset this, they do a pretty poor job of it.
How do people feel about the Psyker spam matchup? I can't see we'll ever hold a candle in any game against Thousand Sons just because we're missing out on a game phase.
Huh, weird. I could load the other one just fine, but I can't figure out how to make this one work...
it's probably a versioning thing, go to manage data, click download new data, and then make sure you check the box for delete the existing data. That will get you back to Necron v20, after that just extract the zip file somewhere and open the file for necrons.cat. At least that's what I had to do
Good to see they've got a branch up, for those that use Battlescribe on phones look at a file manager and move that Necron file into the Battlescribe data folder. It's a shame you can't link directly to github and pull the beta data though.
MarkM wrote: The Deceiver 'may' be of use if we get 1st turn. But even then many armies have the middle covered with 2-4 units of scout-like troops. So we have nowhere to go that's not within 12" of the enemy except in our own deployment zone.
Same for Deathmarks - counter DS yes - but more than 9" away. Again 3 enemy units in no-mans land means we can only drop in our own deployment area.
This means that unlike most other armies we cannot defend in depth as we only get 12" (a bit more in some scenarios) to deploy into and cannot make space for our own DS units.
If the Monolith and Invasion beams are meant to offset this, they do a pretty poor job of it.
Deathmarks aren't terrible though when they're Mephrit. Don't they kill 4 Scions in Rapid Fire range in a minimum squad?
Darsath wrote: Deathmarks aren't exactly a good choice to counter any deepstrikers. They lack any real amount of damage to be effective for this scenario.
But they can counter certain strats that are pretty popular at the moment.
Oblits and JP sorc: ds in when sorc comes down and shoot him to death no prescience or miasma/death hex.
Same kinda thing for ds poxbringers etc who buff there troops.
You could use them on your turn to clear scouts for your own deepstrike shenanigins. Granted this isnt amazing but its still useful.
Onto sumthing abit different.
Imotekh, immortals with tesla, stalker, warrior blob/destroyers/hdestroyers and the 1cp +1mwbd and 2cp sautehk shooting strat +1tohit.
With imo you can buff 3 squads with mwbd, strat allows +1tohit and tesla immortals are now hitting on 4+ for xtra hits! stalker for reroll 1's a lord for reroll 1's wounding.
In perpetration for the new codex I started making my 1st Codex list and something came across my mind. 1 unit of mixed tomb blades e.g. some having Shields vanes and others having Shadowlooms. That is in a Nihilakh detachment you can pop the "RALE" stratagem when they are near an Objective to give them 2+ save and/or 4++ invul depending on how you loaded them out. Those stats plus -1 to hit when shot at makes these guys really good at eating shoots. Also, if the objective is on terrain and if your TBs are hidden they can have ++2. 1 for cover and 1 for "RALE" stratagem.
MarkM wrote: The Deceiver 'may' be of use if we get 1st turn. But even then many armies have the middle covered with 2-4 units of scout-like troops. So we have nowhere to go that's not within 12" of the enemy except in our own deployment zone.
Same for Deathmarks - counter DS yes - but more than 9" away. Again 3 enemy units in no-mans land means we can only drop in our own deployment area.
This means that unlike most other armies we cannot defend in depth as we only get 12" (a bit more in some scenarios) to deploy into and cannot make space for our own DS units.
Why do you feel like this is even a problem? What missions are you playing that this alone means you'll lose?
Odrankt wrote: In perpetration for the new codex I started making my 1st Codex list and something came across my mind. 1 unit of mixed tomb blades e.g. some having Shields vanes and others having Shadowlooms. That is in a Nihilakh detachment you can pop the "RALE" stratagem when they are near an Objective to give them 2+ save and/or 4++ invul depending on how you loaded them out. Those stats plus -1 to hit when shot at makes these guys really good at eating shoots. Also, if the objective is on terrain and if your TBs are hidden they can have ++2. 1 for cover and 1 for "RALE" stratagem.
You want play necrons like imperial soup but they cant. In this tactic we always be wors because we dont have GEQ.
Personaly i always have different tactic. I deploy my force deep in corner. Screan by hide scarabs, put second line infrantry in cover and d-ark back. And i wait. Most player atack my position in firs turn - witch meen they only put on me DS and long range unit. They split army, have less fire power so cant kill my unit in one turn. If shoot infrantry done good job, if cc my character counter. After 2-3 turn i have still almost all army thanks to rp and then i move ahead. Turn 5 its good time to use veil and surround enemy.
Most games i have more army live at the end but not always win in VP. Still its better then try alfa strike with army witout good fire power and with expensive way to do it.
Wait, what is the closest something can deep strike next to our stuff?
(Is there something that can drop closer than 9"?)
If not, wouldn't we be able to leave 17-18" between our models and still be safe from something being able to pop in between them? I'd imagine that'd be a pretty large amount of board space we could cover (2" between each model, 18" between each unit)
Darsath wrote: Deathmarks aren't exactly a good choice to counter any deepstrikers. They lack any real amount of damage to be effective for this scenario.
MarkM wrote: Slayer, we won't have much left to worry about later turn DS'ing if we can't sort out a defence to Alpha.
Deathmark's help not one jot.
They do. I shut down a Tau Commander Droplist with 3 squads of 5.
First commander droped down, as close as possible, to fusion/melta my vehicles, took 2 squads and placed them sidelong behind him (direction of opponents deployment) and generated a bubble of safezone arround him. Other drops could not come down near him and he got shot bad, because he calculated with more drones to shield him. His other drops could not be placed in valuable spots, so he decided to hold them. Next turn I swarmed the most spots of the board with scarabs.
Alternatively he could have put them in some unvaluable corners, but got nothing of note to shoot at close by.
COLD CASH wrote: But they can counter certain strats that are pretty popular at the moment.
Oblits and JP sorc: ds in when sorc comes down and shoot him to death no prescience or miasma/death hex.
Same kinda thing for ds poxbringers etc who buff there troops.
By propper placement you can isolate parts of the enemys alpha, and in this edition this can be of high value. On paper they might not be the uber-omg-kill-everything-at-zero-points-with-no-effort unit, but think outside the box. They defenitely have their uses.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: Wait, what is the closest something can deep strike next to our stuff?
(Is there something that can drop closer than 9"?)
If not, wouldn't we be able to leave 17-18" between our models and still be safe from something being able to pop in between them? I'd imagine that'd be a pretty large amount of board space we could cover (2" between each model, 18" between each unit)
Morgon (Tyranids) can come close, but out of 1", and cant charge. Swarmlord can slingshot nearly anything in your fave, the bigger the gaps in your screens, the worse, genestealer cult can come up really close if good roled cult ambush, Nemesor/Zhandrek slingshot can come really close too.
That the ones i know right now out of my head. There might be more.
Darsath wrote: Deathmarks aren't exactly a good choice to counter any deepstrikers. They lack any real amount of damage to be effective for this scenario.
MarkM wrote: Slayer, we won't have much left to worry about later turn DS'ing if we can't sort out a defence to Alpha.
Deathmark's help not one jot.
They do. I shut down a Tau Commander Droplist with 3 squads of 5.
First commander droped down, as close as possible, to fusion/melta my vehicles, took 2 squads and placed them sidelong behind him (direction of opponents deployment) and generated a bubble of safezone arround him. Other drops could not come down near him and he got shot bad, because he calculated with more drones to shield him. His other drops could not be placed in valuable spots, so he decided to hold them. Next turn I swarmed the most spots of the board with scarabs.
Alternatively he could have put them in some unvaluable corners, but got nothing of note to shoot at close by.
COLD CASH wrote: But they can counter certain strats that are pretty popular at the moment.
Oblits and JP sorc: ds in when sorc comes down and shoot him to death no prescience or miasma/death hex.
Same kinda thing for ds poxbringers etc who buff there troops.
By propper placement you can isolate parts of the enemys alpha, and in this edition this can be of high value. On paper they might not be the uber-omg-kill-everything-at-zero-points-with-no-effort unit, but think outside the box. They defenitely have their uses.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: Wait, what is the closest something can deep strike next to our stuff?
(Is there something that can drop closer than 9"?)
If not, wouldn't we be able to leave 17-18" between our models and still be safe from something being able to pop in between them? I'd imagine that'd be a pretty large amount of board space we could cover (2" between each model, 18" between each unit)
Morgon (Tyranids) can come close, but out of 1", and cant charge. Swarmlord can slingshot nearly anything in your fave, the bigger the gaps in your screens, the worse, genestealer cult can come up really close if good roled cult ambush, Nemesor/Zhandrek slingshot can come really close too.
That the ones i know right now out of my head. There might be more.
Thanks for pointing this out, I think a lot of people miss the point of deathmarks. My friend loves playing custodes with all the teleportation chamber stuff, he'll hold at least 2 groups in reserve and try to remove my destroyers and doomsday arc as with there D3 damage there the only credible threats. He deepstrike in first squad and then you send in the deathmarks, with proper placement you can really blunt the alpha strike.
Will the hurt custodes no, but I'd rather lose 100pts of deathmarks then my destroyers or other high value necrons
How is everyone thinking you could block deepstrikers with deathmarks? If something drops 9 inches away you can't get in between that and the target because you have to keep 9 away with your desthmarks too.
There will be a lot of situations where you cant use deathmark intercept at all because of the stupid 9 to 12 inch deepstrike restriction.
So you spend 190 points to averagly strap a couple of wounds of something. Ask yourself if 15 deathcompany, 30 bloodletters oder a full squad of shining spears really care. Imho investing the 190 points in scarabs for a proper screen is the better investment
stormcraft wrote: How is everyone thinking you could block deepstrikers with deathmarks? If something drops 9 inches away you can't get in between that and the target because you have to keep 9 away with your desthmarks too.
There will be a lot of situations where you cant use deathmark intercept at all because of the stupid 9 to 12 inch deepstrike restriction.
So you spend 190 points to averagly strap a couple of wounds of something. Ask yourself if 15 deathcompany, 30 bloodletters oder a full squad of shining spears really care. Imho investing the 190 points in scarabs for a proper screen is the better investment
it's more for blocking massed grouped deeptrikes, since they can only get one unit down before your deathmarks deny the rest of the area.
Obviously this is not a great plan as if they have units of 5 or more then you have enough space to place buffing models such as you'd find in a bloodletter or sanguinary guard bomb but above is the general reasoning behind the strategy.
Problem is it all falls apart if the enemy properly blocks the midfield with infiltrating units (scouts/nurglings). He will abolute board controll and you cant place your deathmarks anywhere but your own deployment where they wont block anything
stormcraft wrote: How is everyone thinking you could block deepstrikers with deathmarks? If something drops 9 inches away you can't get in between that and the target because you have to keep 9 away with your desthmarks too.
There will be a lot of situations where you cant use deathmark intercept at all because of the stupid 9 to 12 inch deepstrike restriction.
So you spend 190 points to averagly strap a couple of wounds of something. Ask yourself if 15 deathcompany, 30 bloodletters oder a full squad of shining spears really care. Imho investing the 190 points in scarabs for a proper screen is the better investment
You don't use them to screen. You use the Deathmarks to create a bubble around the unit that Deepstriked in, thus repelling any other units that want to Deepstrike in close to that unit for support. Placed effectively and with the possible use of MSU you can block the area around the original Deepstriking unit within an 18" radius. This can severely cripple coordinated Alpha Strike strategies that heavily rely on more than one unit.
MarkM wrote: The Deceiver 'may' be of use if we get 1st turn. But even then many armies have the middle covered with 2-4 units of scout-like troops. So we have nowhere to go that's not within 12" of the enemy except in our own deployment zone.
Same for Deathmarks - counter DS yes - but more than 9" away. Again 3 enemy units in no-mans land means we can only drop in our own deployment area.
This means that unlike most other armies we cannot defend in depth as we only get 12" (a bit more in some scenarios) to deploy into and cannot make space for our own DS units.
Why do you feel like this is even a problem? What missions are you playing that this alone means you'll lose?
ITC Mission 4 in the example I gave. My opponent got 1st turn, 8 pts and left me nowhere to meaningfully DS (Other than my own deployment area).
It would help if I went 1st but he still had complete control of 'no mans land', and playing a list that has to go 1st to have a chance is a poor strategy - hence asking for ideas to mitigate this.
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Kuguar6 wrote: You want play necrons like imperial soup but they cant. In this tactic we always be wors because we dont have GEQ.
Personaly i always have different tactic. I deploy my force deep in corner. Screan by hide scarabs, put second line infrantry in cover and d-ark back. And i wait. Most player atack my position in firs turn - witch meen they only put on me DS and long range unit. They split army, have less fire power so cant kill my unit in one turn. If shoot infrantry done good job, if cc my character counter. After 2-3 turn i have still almost all army thanks to rp and then i move ahead. Turn 5 its good time to use veil and surround enemy.
Most games i have more army live at the end but not always win in VP. Still its better then try alfa strike with army witout good fire power and with expensive way to do it.
Good plan Kuguar,
A bit static for my liking but may be necessary to play the meta.
MarkM wrote: Slayer, we won't have much left to worry about later turn DS'ing if we can't sort out a defence to Alpha.
Deathmark's help not one jot.
They do. I shut down a Tau Commander Droplist with 3 squads of 5.
First commander droped down, as close as possible, to fusion/melta my vehicles, took 2 squads and placed them sidelong behind him (direction of opponents deployment) and generated a bubble of safezone arround him. Other drops could not come down near him and he got shot bad, because he calculated with more drones to shield him. His other drops could not be placed in valuable spots, so he decided to hold them. Next turn I swarmed the most spots of the board with scarabs.
Alternatively he could have put them in some unvaluable corners, but got nothing of note to shoot at close by.
COLD CASH wrote: But they can counter certain strats that are pretty popular at the moment.
Oblits and JP sorc: ds in when sorc comes down and shoot him to death no prescience or miasma/death hex.
Same kinda thing for ds poxbringers etc who buff there troops.
By propper placement you can isolate parts of the enemys alpha, and in this edition this can be of high value. On paper they might not be the uber-omg-kill-everything-at-zero-points-with-no-effort unit, but think outside the box. They defenitely have their uses.
I don't think I have been clear enough.
Deployment is the 'usual' along the 6' table edge. So both players get a 6' x 1' deployment zone. My opponent has 3 units of nurglings which scout deploy across the board 9" from my deployment zone, and ~21" from my base line.
He goes first and drops in a unit. Any Deathmarks can counter DS but have nowhere to deploy in the central area due to the scouts so cannot 'block' and future DS'ing using. He deploys, say, 40 Cultists (via Alpha Legion rule) - no DM and no reaction possible.
Or he DS's in 3 Oblits. DM's will do next to nothing and can't stop further drops. Then he drops in support character behind the Oblits but within 6". Again DM do nothing as they cannot drop within 12".
Against any list with good central board control on Turn 1 (and let's be honest that is a good chunk of potential armies who get scout like units) - we have a problem.
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stormcraft wrote: How is everyone thinking you could block deepstrikers with deathmarks? If something drops 9 inches away you can't get in between that and the target because you have to keep 9 away with your desthmarks too.
There will be a lot of situations where you cant use deathmark intercept at all because of the stupid 9 to 12 inch deepstrike restriction.
So you spend 190 points to averagly strap a couple of wounds of something. Ask yourself if 15 deathcompany, 30 bloodletters oder a full squad of shining spears really care. Imho investing the 190 points in scarabs for a proper screen is the better investment
Yeh i agree with that, im just saying some match ups the deathmarks can work.
But against my current Dg/CSM/Daemon tourny list, yeh the deathmarks would do nothing because my nurglings and cultists/pox screen out the board + Mid.
But this army isnt my main so im not terribly worried if this is more semi-comp.
So, whats the best tactic to screen against such an alpha drop?
Scarabs at the deployment edge and the infantry units 3 inch behind?
Or maybe use 10 tesla immortals for the front line. I know that a pricey unit but you can get hillarious results in overwatch. Rolled 5 sixes in overwatch last game.
Problem with necrons is your short range on thr guns, you can't really deploy all your troop safely behind, you have to get to midfield fast. And veil helps only so much if you have 3x10 immortals and 2 hqs who need to stay together
stormcraft wrote: So, whats the best tactic to screen against such an alpha drop?
Scarabs at the deployment edge and the infantry units 3 inch behind?
Or maybe use 10 tesla immortals for the front line. I know that a pricey unit but you can get hillarious results in overwatch. Rolled 5 sixes in overwatch last game.
Problem with necrons is your short range on thr guns, you can't really deploy all your troop safely behind, you have to get to midfield fast. And veil helps only so much if you have 3x10 immortals and 2 hqs who need to stay together
There are two strategies that have been mentioned so far, both depend on if your opponent is controlling mid-field with Scouts
If they are using Scouts to control mid-field - You can deploy as far back as possible to isolate the Alpha Strike from the rest of their army. Use your entire army to blast away their Alpha Strike when the rest of their Army is moving up to try and get in range. Then it is a battle in your favor since you took out a good amount of their points without considerable losses. If they decide not to Alpha Strike, then you just need to worry about making up that lost distance and progress the battle from there.
If they aren't using Scouts to control mid-field - You can use Deathmarks to counter-strike and create a bubble around the first enemy unit that Deepstrikes in, making it impossible for the rest of the Alpha Strike to drop where they need to be. This limits the Alpha Strike to only one unit.
In one week i am goin to play a 15K game against a friend. BA with DC and Samginius, Dread spam (I think 2 Comtemptor- DC-, Libi-Dred and FW-Leviathan most with Double AC), and IGLRBT-Pask as ally.
I need some ideas how to deal with this Dred/Tank spam and how ito keep DS Samginus and DC away from my vehicles.
Doomsday ark and 2 destroyers with a heavy destroyer in the mix is how I would do it.
Ark should do the heavy lifting and the destroyers pick off anything that's still got a few wounds. Or max out destroyers (5 with a heavy) and you can kill dreadnoughts with ease. Granted not the most cost effective way to do it but it works. You can stay out of assault cannon range easy enough and all the other weapons can only kill 2 destroyers max a turn (assuming dual laz hits and wounds and kills). Big deal. RP can possibly bring those back. And if your opponent force fires everything at the destroyers then the arks are not being targeted and they will kill a dreadnaught a turn easy.
Atze Beton wrote: In one week i am goin to play a 15K game against a friend. BA with DC and Samginius, Dread spam (I think 2 Comtemptor- DC-, Libi-Dred and FW-Leviathan most with Double AC), and IGLRBT-Pask as ally.
I need some ideas how to deal with this Dred/Tank spam and how ito keep DS Samginus and DC away from my vehicles.
DDA en mass. Destroyers can be good for taking out tanks as well if you use Extermination Protocols, but that is 2 CP a turn and only for one unit. Multiple DDA are your best bet, preferably with the Nihilakh Code to Re-Roll 1's to hit.
For preventing Deepstrike assaults like the Sanguinor and Death Company, a bubblewrap of Scarabs should do just fine with enough firepower nearby to light them up next turn.
Heeya folks, I hope you can help me out cause I'm in a bit of a pickle for an upcoming escalation league.
The league starts at 500p, then up 250 each round until 1250.
Here is my 500p list: (all Mephrit Dynasty)
Spoiler:
HQ Illuminor Szeras, warlord
Troops:
10x Immortals /w Tesla
15x Warriors
I've been playing a few practice games with this list and it seems to function fairely well overall. While the list is not very mobile, it can take a lot of punishment and usually lets me control 2 objective markers while pummeling away at the enemy.
However, the real obstacle is what to do with the 750p list. I've had two lists in mind:
List 1:
Spoiler:
HQ:
Illuminor Szeras, warlord
Troops:
10x Immortals with Tesla
20x Warriors
Heavy Support:
DDA
The added DDA of course provides plenty of anti-tank for 750 points, while also offering a decent amount of small-arms fire with it's Gauss Flayer Array and being Mephrit. However, from my experiences the 20 man Warrior blob gets wiped or severely locked in combat way too easy. That leaves just the Immortals and the DDA left, which simply isn't enough.
It's a tough call. I've only practiced once with this list against Space Wolves. My opponent had Storm Shields on basically everything (Thunderwolf cav, his HQ on a wolf, Wulven, Vern. Dread) so it was a tough list for Mephrit and the DDA. I'm gonna give it another go, but seeing the 20 Warriors taken out of action so easily doesn't sit right with me.
My 2nd list:
Spoiler:
HQ:
Illuminor Szeras, warlord
Overlord /w Warscythe, Veil of Darkness
Troops:
10x Immortals /w Tesla
14x Warriors
14x Warriors
This list offers 8 extra Warriors and an Overlord who can MWBD the Tesla Immortals. Combined with Talent for Annilhiation turns those guys absolutely nuts. The added mobility of the Veil can also really help to gain board control or against enemy gunlines. But can also come in handy to get a unit out of combat without falling back.
However, the two big issues with this list are:
-No anti-tank. While I don't expect a lot of big vehicles or monsters at this amount of points, with this list a single dreadnought, Carnifex or Leman Russ is free to do as he pleases and can roll over my entire army in it's own.
-No maxxed out units of Warriors. The bigger the unit sizes, tne more likely they are to survive for RP. The benefits from Szeras' upgrades will also be bigger. However, two units instead of one means I'm not completely neutered should they get locked in combat, unlike the first list. I could also try and split the unit into 10 and 18 model squads. The 10 man unit can act as a screen. Or vice versa, the 18 man unit could survive for a turn and use RP. If not, I'll still have 10 Warriors in reserve.
And lastly, I'd love to give my Overlord a Voidscythe instead of a Warscythe. However, this means one Warrior less, who are already starving for models....
Let me know what you think, 'cause I have no idea which of the two lists is better.
DDAs are amazing now, i think 2 will always be in my list. I like them as sauthek, so you can push dem forward aggressively after the long range threats are gone in the late game.
Doctoralex wrote: Heeya folks, I hope you can help me out cause I'm in a bit of a pickle for an upcoming escalation league.
The league starts at 500p, then up 250 each round until 1250.
Here is my 500p list: (all Mephrit Dynasty)
Spoiler:
HQ Illuminor Szeras, warlord
Troops:
10x Immortals /w Tesla
15x Warriors
I've been playing a few practice games with this list and it seems to function fairely well overall. While the list is not very mobile, it can take a lot of punishment and usually lets me control 2 objective markers while pummeling away at the enemy.
However, the real obstacle is what to do with the 750p list. I've had two lists in mind:
List 1:
Spoiler:
HQ:
Illuminor Szeras, warlord
Troops:
10x Immortals with Tesla
20x Warriors
Heavy Support:
DDA
The added DDA of course provides plenty of anti-tank for 750 points, while also offering a decent amount of small-arms fire with it's Gauss Flayer Array and being Mephrit. However, from my experiences the 20 man Warrior blob gets wiped or severely locked in combat way too easy. That leaves just the Immortals and the DDA left, which simply isn't enough.
It's a tough call. I've only practiced once with this list against Space Wolves. My opponent had Storm Shields on basically everything (Thunderwolf cav, his HQ on a wolf, Wulven, Vern. Dread) so it was a tough list for Mephrit and the DDA. I'm gonna give it another go, but seeing the 20 Warriors taken out of action so easily doesn't sit right with me.
My 2nd list:
Spoiler:
HQ:
Illuminor Szeras, warlord
Overlord /w Warscythe, Veil of Darkness
Troops:
10x Immortals /w Tesla
14x Warriors
14x Warriors
This list offers 8 extra Warriors and an Overlord who can MWBD the Tesla Immortals. Combined with Talent for Annilhiation turns those guys absolutely nuts. The added mobility of the Veil can also really help to gain board control or against enemy gunlines. But can also come in handy to get a unit out of combat without falling back.
However, the two big issues with this list are:
-No anti-tank. While I don't expect a lot of big vehicles or monsters at this amount of points, with this list a single dreadnought, Carnifex or Leman Russ is free to do as he pleases and can roll over my entire army in it's own.
-No maxxed out units of Warriors. The bigger the unit sizes, tne more likely they are to survive for RP. The benefits from Szeras' upgrades will also be bigger. However, two units instead of one means I'm not completely neutered should they get locked in combat, unlike the first list. I could also try and split the unit into 10 and 18 model squads. The 10 man unit can act as a screen. Or vice versa, the 18 man unit could survive for a turn and use RP. If not, I'll still have 10 Warriors in reserve.
And lastly, I'd love to give my Overlord a Voidscythe instead of a Warscythe. However, this means one Warrior less, who are already starving for models....
Let me know what you think, 'cause I have no idea which of the two lists is better.
If your running infantry like that you want a cryptek, he gives a 5+ invulnerable to shooting to them and +1 to RP when he is near them. That would be a better effect for the 2nd list than an overlord would and is 1 pt more expensive than the standard kitted out overlord.
After that dda would be where I went, followed by scarabs. Do not underestimate the little buggers, in small games they can be super effective in numbers for surrounding an enemy and tieing them down in cc they can't get out of. And for a cp they can explode! Surround that apothecary and watch it squirm as you simply overwhelm it (that's what it gets for getting separated from the group lol)
If your running infantry like that you want a cryptek, he gives a 5+ invulnerable to shooting to them and +1 to RP when he is near them. That would be a better effect for the 2nd list than an overlord would and is 1 pt more expensive than the standard kitted out overlord.
After that dda would be where I went, followed by scarabs. Do not underestimate the little buggers, in small games they can be super effective in numbers for surrounding an enemy and tieing them down in cc they can't get out of. And for a cp they can explode! Surround that apothecary and watch it squirm as you simply overwhelm it (that's what it gets for getting separated from the group lol)
I'm not sure what you mean. Szeras already gives +1 RP to all the nearby infantry . A 5++ against shooting is nice, but unnesscary unless you are up against mass Eldar /w Bladestorm, Rubric Marines or Plasma. AP-2 or higher on large amounts of shooting is uncommon, especially in such low-point games.
And I've been thinking about Scarabs, but I don't know where to get the points from without lowering the amount of Warriors even further.
stormcraft wrote: DDAs are amazing now, i think 2 will always be in my list. I like them as sauthek, so you can push dem forward aggressively after the long range threats are gone in the late game.
Ehhh, I am still wary on the idea of Sautekh DDAs. A DDA main job is AT and its our most effective AT option out of the very few we have. To trade off AT power for late game strategies that hinge on the enemy tanks already being dealt with seems counterproductive to me.
Nihilakh give you more reliability for the High Power profile so you can take out tanks more efficiently, while Sautekh gives more reliability to the Low Power profile which is usually only useful if the tanks are already gone.
Doctoralex wrote: Heeya folks, I hope you can help me out cause I'm in a bit of a pickle for an upcoming escalation league.
Spoiler:
The league starts at 500p, then up 250 each round until 1250.
Here is my 500p list: (all Mephrit Dynasty)
HQ Illuminor Szeras, warlord
Troops:
10x Immortals /w Tesla
15x Warriors
I've been playing a few practice games with this list and it seems to function fairely well overall. While the list is not very mobile, it can take a lot of punishment and usually lets me control 2 objective markers while pummeling away at the enemy.
However, the real obstacle is what to do with the 750p list. I've had two lists in mind:
List 1:
HQ:
Illuminor Szeras, warlord
Troops:
10x Immortals with Tesla
20x Warriors
Heavy Support:
DDA
The added DDA of course provides plenty of anti-tank for 750 points, while also offering a decent amount of small-arms fire with it's Gauss Flayer Array and being Mephrit. However, from my experiences the 20 man Warrior blob gets wiped or severely locked in combat way too easy. That leaves just the Immortals and the DDA left, which simply isn't enough.
It's a tough call. I've only practiced once with this list against Space Wolves. My opponent had Storm Shields on basically everything (Thunderwolf cav, his HQ on a wolf, Wulven, Vern. Dread) so it was a tough list for Mephrit and the DDA. I'm gonna give it another go, but seeing the 20 Warriors taken out of action so easily doesn't sit right with me.
My 2nd list:
HQ:
Illuminor Szeras, warlord
Overlord /w Warscythe, Veil of Darkness
Troops:
10x Immortals /w Tesla
14x Warriors
14x Warriors
This list offers 8 extra Warriors and an Overlord who can MWBD the Tesla Immortals. Combined with Talent for Annilhiation turns those guys absolutely nuts. The added mobility of the Veil can also really help to gain board control or against enemy gunlines. But can also come in handy to get a unit out of combat without falling back.
However, the two big issues with this list are:
-No anti-tank. While I don't expect a lot of big vehicles or monsters at this amount of points, with this list a single dreadnought, Carnifex or Leman Russ is free to do as he pleases and can roll over my entire army in it's own.
-No maxxed out units of Warriors. The bigger the unit sizes, tne more likely they are to survive for RP. The benefits from Szeras' upgrades will also be bigger. However, two units instead of one means I'm not completely neutered should they get locked in combat, unlike the first list. I could also try and split the unit into 10 and 18 model squads. The 10 man unit can act as a screen. Or vice versa, the 18 man unit could survive for a turn and use RP. If not, I'll still have 10 Warriors in reserve.
And lastly, I'd love to give my Overlord a Voidscythe instead of a Warscythe. However, this means one Warrior less, who are already starving for models....
Let me know what you think, 'cause I have no idea which of the two lists is better.
Huh, no Scarabs in any of your lists?
At low points level games they're golden. (hell, at high point games they're great, too).
stormcraft wrote: DDAs are amazing now, i think 2 will always be in my list. I like them as sauthek, so you can push dem forward aggressively after the long range threats are gone in the late game.
Ehhh, I am still wary on the idea of Sautekh DDAs. A DDA main job is AT and its our most effective AT option out of the very few we have. To trade off AT power for late game strategies that hinge on the enemy tanks already being dealt with seems counterproductive to me.
Nihilakh give you more reliability for the High Power profile so you can take out tanks more efficiently, while Sautekh gives more reliability to the Low Power profile which is usually only useful if the tanks are already gone.
That's about how I feel on the matter too. Cadia is popular for a reason for their tanks.
I don't know about you guys but I'm still having trouble trying to come up with my ideal Dynasty mix.
I want Sautekh's Hyperlogical Strategist WL trait, but I also want Mephrit's -1 AP for my guys, as well as Nephrekh's strat for my Destroyers, AND Nihilakh's reroll-1-to-hit for my DDAs.
Spoilt for choice but can't decide which three to take!
stormcraft wrote: DDAs are amazing now, i think 2 will always be in my list. I like them as sauthek, so you can push dem forward aggressively after the long range threats are gone in the late game.
Ehhh, I am still wary on the idea of Sautekh DDAs. A DDA main job is AT and its our most effective AT option out of the very few we have. To trade off AT power for late game strategies that hinge on the enemy tanks already being dealt with seems counterproductive to me.
Nihilakh give you more reliability for the High Power profile so you can take out tanks more efficiently, while Sautekh gives more reliability to the Low Power profile which is usually only useful if the tanks are already gone.
Good points, I get that its a choice between firepower or flexibility. What HQ would you run for your nihilak detachment? Another cryptek seem like a steep tax.
I’d love to add Scarabs, but it would mean sacrificing Warrior models and I feel like the units need to have as many models as possible.
Between points spent on Warriors or Scarabs, I have a feeling most people are going to opt for Scarabs.
They're just too useful, especially compared to Warriors.
(You've got Immortals to be the foot soldiers, you need something fast to cap objectives).
What are the requirements for this escalation?
If I had to throw a 500 point list together I might try for something like this-
skoffs wrote:I don't know about you guys but I'm still having trouble trying to come up with my ideal Dynasty mix.
I want Sautekh's Hyperlogical Strategist WL trait, but I also want Mephrit's -1 AP for my guys, as well as Nephrekh's strat for my Destroyers, AND Nihilakh's reroll-1-to-hit for my DDAs.
Spoilt for choice but can't decide which three to take!
Exactly my problem. I feel Nephrekh for the Destroyers and Sautekh for the WL traits are a given, so I think the real choice is Mephrit vs Nihilakh. I am a huge fan of what the Nihilakh can bring to the table, so that is probably what I am personally going to go with. The Relic they get is amazing and the Dynasty Code and stratagem I think can be really powerful given the right strategy.
stormcraft wrote: DDAs are amazing now, i think 2 will always be in my list. I like them as sauthek, so you can push dem forward aggressively after the long range threats are gone in the late game.
Ehhh, I am still wary on the idea of Sautekh DDAs. A DDA main job is AT and its our most effective AT option out of the very few we have. To trade off AT power for late game strategies that hinge on the enemy tanks already being dealt with seems counterproductive to me.
Nihilakh give you more reliability for the High Power profile so you can take out tanks more efficiently, while Sautekh gives more reliability to the Low Power profile which is usually only useful if the tanks are already gone.
Good points, I get that its a choice between firepower or flexibility. What HQ would you run for your nihilak detachment? Another cryptek seem like a steep tax.
A cloaktek would work great, as it could continuously repair the DDA that they are trying to focus down to keep it's profile from degrading, thus extending the efficiency of your DDAs. For just 85 points I call that a steal lol
MarkM wrote: The Deceiver 'may' be of use if we get 1st turn. But even then many armies have the middle covered with 2-4 units of scout-like troops. So we have nowhere to go that's not within 12" of the enemy except in our own deployment zone.
Same for Deathmarks - counter DS yes - but more than 9" away. Again 3 enemy units in no-mans land means we can only drop in our own deployment area.
This means that unlike most other armies we cannot defend in depth as we only get 12" (a bit more in some scenarios) to deploy into and cannot make space for our own DS units.
Why do you feel like this is even a problem? What missions are you playing that this alone means you'll lose?
ITC Mission 4 in the example I gave. My opponent got 1st turn, 8 pts and left me nowhere to meaningfully DS (Other than my own deployment area).
It would help if I went 1st but he still had complete control of 'no mans land', and playing a list that has to go 1st to have a chance is a poor strategy - hence asking for ideas to mitigate this.
ITC is built to favor specific armies that the people who make the ITC missions play. Don't play ITC.
I’d love to add Scarabs, but it would mean sacrificing Warrior models and I feel like the units need to have as many models as possible.
Between points spent on Warriors or Scarabs, I have a feeling most people are going to opt for Scarabs.
They're just too useful, especially compared to Warriors.
(You've got Immortals to be the foot soldiers, you need something fast to cap objectives).
What are the requirements for this escalation?
If I had to throw a 500 point list together I might try for something like this-
Fast, hard hitting, with some decently tough targets.
Yeah I am actually questioning the Lightening Field as well. At that small of a game I am unsure if the 4+ Invun and chance of a Mortal Wound each turn would be worth taking over some over options. My main concern is if they did decide to take something with 6+ Toughness, as everything in your army would wound it on 5+ outside of the one Particle Beamer and Tesla Cannon. I would suggest a Warscythe upgraded to a Void Reaper to deal with any high Toughness targets they may bring, but that puts you at 501 points
Necron_Mason wrote: I would suggest a Warscythe upgraded to a Void Reaper to deal with any high Toughness targets they may bring, but that puts you at 501 points
Can just drop a Shield off of the Particle TB and give it a Scope: back to 500 exactly.
Necron_Mason wrote: I would suggest a Warscythe upgraded to a Void Reaper to deal with any high Toughness targets they may bring, but that puts you at 501 points
Can just drop a Shield off of the Particle TB and give it a Scope: back to 500 exactly.
Perfect! I honestly like that better. It gives you a counter to any 6+ Toughness, as well as more efficiency killing Toughness 5-3 since you are going from wounding on a 3+ to a 2+. The only problem would be Toughness 8 Vehicles, but I doubt you will run into too many of those lol
In low point game RP is our main power. You can for example take 6 D or 9 TB or 20 warriors. Cryptek is the best hq choice for buff RP. First list was better then next suggestion.
Awesome backfield firepower with 3 ddas, solid infantry blob for midfield push and fast scarabs for harassment. The ctan and immos storm take care of hard targets
Okay so after my first game with the codex. A few things I found were that the DDA is amazing. I sunk a leman russ in 1 hit by doing 14 wounds. That was off of only 3 hits. The flyers are equally amazing. I took 3 to test out the doomscythe stratagem. It was excellent. I caught my opponent who was playing death korp unaware. He had 3 9 man units of veterans a hellhound and a commissary within 3" of the point I chose. I did 7 to 2 units 4 to the 3rd. 7 wounds off the hellhound and failed to wound the commissary. My opponent was in awe. They were then within the Tesla range and half distance so -1 Ap. The 3 veteran units were deleted after the 3 doomscythes finished their shooting. This was on my turn 1. My opponent almost was going to concede but then tried to shoot 1 down. After sinking everything into 1 he failed leaving it with 2 wounds then preceded to concede.
So how would people go about making a solid Novokh list? Really want to use this dynasty (no necron soup!) and haven't seen anyone seriously try it yet. Suggestions?
Though their specific WL (6+ to hit gives an extra attack) would be nice, the Novokh dynasty heavily relies on the re-roll failed charge rolls warlord trait.
Quick math, on killing a JP Sorcerer with Deathmarks.
4 wounds, 3+ save, T4. Each shot does:
2/3 hits
1/2 wounds and 1/6 mortal wounds
If Mephrit, 1/2 chance of the regular wound going through
For (2/3*1/6)+(2/3*1/2*1/2) points of damage per shot, or .28 points of damage.
In other words, you need 14 shots, or 7 Deathmarks. Not bad!
Awesome backfield firepower with 3 ddas, solid infantry blob for midfield push and fast scarabs for harassment. The ctan and immos storm take care of hard targets
I really want to see if there's some way to stick a unit of Destroyers into that Outrider...
4 wounds, 3+ save, T4. Each shot does:
2/3 hits
1/2 wounds and 1/6 mortal wounds
If Mephrit, 1/2 chance of the regular wound going through
For (2/3*1/6)+(2/3*1/2*1/2) points of damage per shot, or .28 points of damage.
In other words, you need 14 shots, or 7 Deathmarks. Not bad!
But if not Mephrit, you need...
18 shots, or 9 Deathmarks. Still not bad.
If taking Deathmarks, especially Mephrit, bringing a Lord in (by Veil, preferably with a unit of Immortals to help) is the best way to maximize their effectiveness. Granted, that only works if they're popping in on your turn, though.
skoffs wrote: If taking Deathmarks, especially Mephrit, bringing a Lord in (by Veil, preferably with a unit of Immortals to help) is the best way to maximize their effectiveness. Granted, that only works if they're popping in on your turn, though.
Yeah, the idea is it's on THEIR turn.
Side note, did not realize two pages had passed since that post.
So, everyone mentions that DDA are fairing really well for them, but how often are you having to move them? I'm having trouble deciding if I want them to be Sautekh or Nihiliakh. The main issue being how much you move them, to see if they Benefit from the Sautekh code or not.
I'm starting to have trouble fitting in the Sautekh detachment, but It is so hard to pass up on that Warlord trait. The extra 2-4 command points just seems too good to pass up.
Sasori wrote: So, everyone mentions that DDA are fairing really well for them, but how often are you having to move them? I'm having trouble deciding if I want them to be Sautekh or Nihiliakh. The main issue being how much you move them, to see if they Benefit from the Sautekh code or not.
I'm starting to have trouble fitting in the Sautekh detachment, but It is so hard to pass up on that Warlord trait. The extra 2-4 command points just seems too good to pass up.
I am having the same issue. When i started fitting out my Sautekh detachment with DDAs I really wanted the Re-rolling 1s so now I'm torn between Spearhead Sautekh detach. With 3 DDAs, THGS T.Stalker and Cloaktek. Or, Spearhead Nihilakh detach. With 3 DDAs, 8-9 Gauss Tomb Blades and Cloaktek.
4 wounds, 3+ save, T4. Each shot does:
2/3 hits
1/2 wounds and 1/6 mortal wounds
If Mephrit, 1/2 chance of the regular wound going through
For (2/3*1/6)+(2/3*1/2*1/2) points of damage per shot, or .28 points of damage.
In other words, you need 14 shots, or 7 Deathmarks. Not bad!
But if not Mephrit, you need...
18 shots, or 9 Deathmarks. Still not bad.
Main problem is range. With 12" you need to place 10 models but yours target is behind screans and your opponent know yours ability...
mhalko1 wrote: Okay so after my first game with the codex. A few things I found were that the DDA is amazing. I sunk a leman russ in 1 hit by doing 14 wounds.
Yes, but that's extremely unlikely. You can't judge something on the unlikely events it causes.
It averages the same damage as a 4 lascannon devesator squad and no one thinks they're amazeballs.
Odrankt wrote: Or, Spearhead Nihilakh detach. With 3 DDAs, 8-9 Gauss Tomb Blades and Cloaktek.
Why Tomb Blades with Nihilakh? Standing still seems like the last thing TBs want to be doing.
For jumping onto objectives. Giving them a mixture of Shieldvanes and Shadowlooms and the RALE Stratgem will make them 2+ save with a 4+ invul depending on how you kit them out. For roughly 400pts (including Cloaktek) that's 8 modles with T5, 2W, -1 to.hit when shot at, 2+ save, 4+ invul, +1 Reanimation and +1 attack if charged.
People used to charge my TBs during the Index if they weren't destroyed by focus fire. So, why not make them as durable as possible. They don't lose their movement but will be used to grab objectives and with movement 14-20" (depending if you advance or not) They should be able to go nearly everywhere on the board.
a quick question: I ended up with 2 boxes of Lychguard/Praets and I don't really know which one to build and paint.
Afaik Praets are not getting any love in the new dex, right?
Are Lychguard with Warscythes a good allrounder to fit in most lists? (Since I don't have a specific listplan in mind)
lychguard are the way to go over praets but still neither pick is particularly competitive. Scytheguard when combined with a few more units for slingshotting (monoliths, night scythes, deceiver with zandrekh/obyron) are probably the better way to go since wraiths are just flat out better than sword and board guard except for a very narrow use
Hey guys, my brother and I would like to play against each other but he doesn't have any army so I thought we could split mine for the time being. What would be a good way to split my army into two relatively equal forces?
Spoiler:
++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Necrons) [70 PL, 1193pts] ++
+ HQ +
Cryptek [6 PL, 95pts]: Chronometron, Staff of Light
epaemil wrote: Hey guys, my brother and I would like to play against each other but he doesn't have any army so I thought we could split mine for the time being. What would be a good way to split my army into two relatively equal forces?
Spoiler:
++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Necrons) [70 PL, 1193pts] ++
+ HQ +
Cryptek [6 PL, 95pts]: Chronometron, Staff of Light
Defense to Alpha is reserves. Place units on TW or what whatever Deepstrike reserve they inherently get deploy after your opponent has had their Alpha. Monolith's ARE built for this. Yeah, we aren't going to necessarily be able to DS them in a choice location but you'll get to shoot and emergency Invasion Beam with it at the very least.
stormcraft wrote: 381 points to safely deploy 2 units is ridiculous. If gw at least gave the the mono a 2+, or anything. Its sad....
You could use mass units naturally difficult to shift, i.e. Wraiths, QS vehicles and supported multiwound T5 units. Flayed Ones are a good option to keep away from alpha strikes. Also Nephrekh DSing Destroyers. There are options.
stormcraft wrote: 381 points to safely deploy 2 units is ridiculous. If gw at least gave the the mono a 2+, or anything. Its sad....
Yeah, my obelisk feels the same way. It's just sad. 3+ t8 and stupid high wounds? It's too easy to punch through, they need like at least a 5++ save or a 6+++ on top of the 3+ to make them at least stand a chance of surviving a 2nd turn. I would gladly trade 4 or 6 wounds for a better save. Last game I played my obelisk lost 16 wounds to a single dev squad. 4 laz cannons, 3 hits, 3 wounds, and he rolled 5,5,6 for damage. Yes, it's an incredible roll and not normal, but we all have seen it and done it before (you know, you need 3 6's to save and get them, it never happens until it does then you feel like the top of the world).
Its sad, I paid a lot of money and put a lot of time into my obelisk, I just want it to not be total waste of points, it doesn't have to make its points back every game or anything, not asking for it to be op. But just good.
stormcraft wrote: 381 points to safely deploy 2 units is ridiculous. If gw at least gave the the mono a 2+, or anything. Its sad....
Yeah, my obelisk feels the same way. It's just sad. 3+ t8 and stupid high wounds? It's too easy to punch through, they need like at least a 5++ save or a 6+++ on top of the 3+ to make them at least stand a chance of surviving a 2nd turn. I would gladly trade 4 or 6 wounds for a better save. Last game I played my obelisk lost 16 wounds to a single dev squad. 4 laz cannons, 3 hits, 3 wounds, and he rolled 5,5,6 for damage. Yes, it's an incredible roll and not normal, but we all have seen it and done it before (you know, you need 3 6's to save and get them, it never happens until it does then you feel like the top of the world).
Its sad, I paid a lot of money and put a lot of time into my obelisk, I just want it to not be total waste of points, it doesn't have to make its points back every game or anything, not asking for it to be op. But just good.
GW has not managed to get the Obelisk right yet, it's actually pretty sad. It's been pretty useless every single edition. I would think they'd give it a pretty major buff, as it has never come even close to powerful. Give it some kind of large buff to vehicles like a 5++ aura or something. This is the first edition they've really gotten the Vault right though, so I will at least hand it to them. 500 points does seem like a lot though.
so I played my first game against chaos today with necrons. We didn't use command points or stratagems, it was a friendly game vs my nephew.
I played mephrit, he did alpha legion.
I used a variation of silver wave. 2 squads of 20 warriors, a single squad of ten, backed up by overlord, cryptech, and ghost ark. Rest of the force was destroyers, heavy destroyers, dda, and a c'tan shard.
If the game had gone one more turn I would have won. As it is I lost due to a few key things, but the main one that I want to bring up is I played mephrit. Mephrit is cool, don't get me wrong, but if I had played sautekh it would have been a win easy. Our game was objective based and I simply could not move fast enough. I needed to advance twice with 20 warriors at the end and that was a lot of shooting to lose. I underestimated the idea of turning rapid fire into assault. Next time sautekh for sure.
Hypothetical question here, what force to take to fight 3 random/unknown opponents?
Is it possible to boil this down to the following points?
1# How to survive going second or how to survive Alpha?
2# How to cope with CC or Deepstrike army's? They generally want to be within 12" or in CC.
3# How to cope with shooty or Psychic army's? They generally want to be outside 12-24" and not in CC.
How do we maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses?
Can we agree that a Core element of a standard army can be a DDA Spearhead Detachment (Nihilakh or Sautech) with Cryptek for 664 points. This is 33% of a 2000 pts army.
With 3 DDA there shouldn't really be much need of more dedicated Antitank.
Spoiler:
Spearhead -Nihilakh- [Reroll 1 to hit, if not moved] (+1CP) 664
CloakCryptek (85) Repair DDA DDA (193)
DDA (193)
DDA (193)
So is it better to go for a slow moving Zombie Silver Tide with lots of bodies and guns?
Tactic for this to just march up and capture objectives, is it just an expensive horde army?
1# Silver tide should survive Alpha, even if one Warrior squad is vaporized (it has 5++) it is not a problem. All vehicles are QS.
2# With the scarabs and warriors properly placed there shouldn't be any room for Deepstrike. Properly staggered gun line with Scarabs should block CC armys, give the CC army the first turn!
3# Use Scarabs to tie up units, tarpit or draw fire as approriate, move tide up and try to get in range. Capture and hold Objectives.
Spoiler:
Battalion -Mephrit- [AP-1 at half range](+3CP -1CP) 1332 pts
CCB w/ Warscyth & Tesla. (162) Artifact: Lightning Field -Warlord- Immortal Pride.
Lord (83) Artifact: Veil of Darkness
ChronoCryptek (95)
20 Warriors (240)
20 Warriors (240)
10 Immortals Tesla (170)
GA (160)
5 Scarab (65)
5 Scarab (65)
4 Scarab (52)
There is a mobility issue. Necrons are stuck with 5" battalion movement and our only viable transports are expensive flyers and they don't have QS (they really should have it). Good thing about our transports is that they can transport multiple units, bad thing is that they cant pick up units again, hence the 5".
Shooty army can kite our infantry (Destroyers, TB, Wraiths or scarabs can counter that). CC army can probably move faster than us so we cant really kite them (again Destroyers, TB, Wraiths or scarabs can counter that).
SO is a fully mobile army to keep the opponent on their toes more viable?
Tactic for this to have DDA's kill off the enemy long range firepower while the fast movers kite and nip at the enemy where he is weak.
Fewer models, fewer wounds fewer guns. But ohboy the guns here rock. Its not just about having more guns, its about having more guns in position to kill what you want dead.
1# Destroyers must start in COVER, so should the other units. QS.
2# Kite CC units. Deathmarks can counter drop. Wraiths can just focus on priority targets.
3# Weakness against Psychic (Immortal Pride can help). The mobility will help the army dictate range, out of psychic range or to swiftly move into weak spots. Wraith and Deathmarks will help against characters/Psychers.
How about combining this into a mobile Silver tid... Silver squirt Tactic, move to and hold objectives. As all Warriors can start embarked the enemy basically only has QS vehicles to shoot at.
Rottweiler wrote: Hypothetical question here, what force to take to fight 3 random/unknown opponents?
Is it possible to boil this down to the following points?
1# How to survive going second or how to survive Alpha?
2# How to cope with CC or Deepstrike army's? They generally want to be within 12" or in CC.
3# How to cope with shooty or Psychic army's? They generally want to be outside 12-24" and not in CC.
How do we maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses?
Can we agree that a Core element of a standard army can be a DDA Spearhead Detachment (Nihilakh or Sautech) with Cryptek for 664 points. This is 33% of a 2000 pts army.
With 3 DDA there shouldn't really be much need of more dedicated Antitank.
Spoiler:
Spearhead -Nihilakh- [Reroll 1 to hit, if not moved] (+1CP) 664
CloakCryptek (85) Repair DDA DDA (193)
DDA (193)
DDA (193)
So is it better to go for a slow moving Zombie Silver Tide with lots of bodies and guns?
Tactic for this to just march up and capture objectives, is it just an expensive horde army?
1# Silver tide should survive Alpha, even if one Warrior squad is vaporized (it has 5++) it is not a problem. All vehicles are QS.
2# With the scarabs and warriors properly placed there shouldn't be any room for Deepstrike. Properly staggered gun line with Scarabs should block CC armys, give the CC army the first turn!
3# Use Scarabs to tie up units, tarpit or draw fire as approriate, move tide up and try to get in range. Capture and hold Objectives.
Spoiler:
Battalion -Mephrit- [AP-1 at half range](+3CP -1CP) 1332 pts
CCB w/ Warscyth & Tesla. (162) Artifact: Lightning Field -Warlord- Immortal Pride.
Lord (83) Artifact: Veil of Darkness
ChronoCryptek (95)
20 Warriors (240)
20 Warriors (240)
10 Immortals Tesla (170)
GA (160)
5 Scarab (65)
5 Scarab (65)
4 Scarab (52)
There is a mobility issue. Necrons are stuck with 5" battalion movement and our only viable transports are expensive flyers and they don't have QS (they really should have it). Good thing about our transports is that they can transport multiple units, bad thing is that they cant pick up units again, hence the 5".
Shooty army can kite our infantry (Destroyers, TB, Wraiths or scarabs can counter that). CC army can probably move faster than us so we cant really kite them (again Destroyers, TB, Wraiths or scarabs can counter that).
SO is a fully mobile army to keep the opponent on their toes more viable?
Tactic for this to have DDA's kill off the enemy long range firepower while the fast movers kite and nip at the enemy where he is weak.
Fewer models, fewer wounds fewer guns. But ohboy the guns here rock. Its not just about having more guns, its about having more guns in position to kill what you want dead.
1# Destroyers must start in COVER, so should the other units. QS.
2# Kite CC units. Deathmarks can counter drop. Wraiths can just focus on priority targets.
3# Weakness against Psychic (Immortal Pride can help). The mobility will help the army dictate range, out of psychic range or to swiftly move into weak spots. Wraith and Deathmarks will help against characters/Psychers.
How about combining this into a mobile Silver tid... Silver squirt Tactic, move to and hold objectives. As all Warriors can start embarked the enemy basically only has QS vehicles to shoot at.
I am a fan of silver tide but the major thing is mobility on the tide sucks. I really think either sautekh or or nephrekh, and seriously leaving at sautekh for it. Nephrekh gives you the advantage of being able to move more reliably, but sautekh let's you keep shooting as you move. Either way the faster we can get our tide into position the better they will be. And 40 gauss shots at 12" is devastating for anything it shoots at. 40 hits, hitting on 2's with mwbd, wounding tanks / dreadnoughts on 5's at ap-1, you can definitely do some wounds if you need to peel the last few wounds off of something big. I ran a 3rd 10 warrior squad in the ghost ark and while the ark did great (basically 10 warriors with quantum shielding and a second rp for the big squads, yes please ) the 10 died once they were targeted, it's just too easy to kill 10.
So I say sautekh, 2 squads of 20 warriors, ghost ark, cryptech with chronomatron and warlord trait immortal pride, and a squad of 10 immortals with tessela as the main force of the wave. Add the storm lord if you have the points, you have spent a little over half you army on the tide but it's an effective force. Warriors get 2 rp rolls a turn at a 4+ chance, never flee from moral, immortals get a single rp at 4+, never flee from moral, plus you can deny psychic powers, everything has a 5++ save vs heavier weapons, your ark is a pretty tough nut to Crack thanks to quantum shielding, and the storm lord can really come in handy with the storm calling ability when things go bad.
Take a second detachment, say, nihilakh with doomsday arks for the main firebase and anti tank work, or nephrek with destroyers in deep strike, we have a ton of options available to us to really allow necrons to not only force our opponents hands but to also adapt to what's happening on the field. I really can't wait to try some of the salad options we have available, only question is do we want ceased or chefs salad?
My regular game on Thursday I am thinking of trying this.
Spoiler:
++ (Faction) (Necrons) [56 PL, 1105pts] ++
+ Battalion +
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Sautekh
+ HQ +
Cryptek [6 PL, 95pts]: Artefact: The Veil of Darkness, Chronometron, Staff of Light
. . Warlord: Warlord Trait (Codex 3): Immortal Pride
Imotekh the Stormlord [10 PL, 200pts]
+ Troops +
Immortals [8 PL, 170pts]: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
I played a very similar list against Tau recently. Main changes were a third warrior squad instead of immortals, a transcendent C'tan instead of destroyers (don't own any yet).
It was against Tau, and he mostly had taken the invuln saves on his big suits. He also didn't deep strike in a commander and three crisis suits in on turn 1, for some reason. He later said it was to hit me when I'm not entrenched in a position anymore, due to my warriors being spread and excellently screening. I even daisy chained them turn 2 to keep him from striking behind me. In addition, he oddly focused my Scarabs instead of my warriors at first.
It worked fairly well, minus his strange play. At first. My warriors survived for a good while, being surprisingly durable between the warlord trait and improved reanimating stratagem.
But as time went on, he ended up slowly whittling me away. My C'tan got some good wounds on his commander and suits, but even with the +1 saves trait, he simply disengaged and shot it to death since the Scarabs had slowly been wiped away. In fact, I think the flamers from the crisis suits ended up doing it in. Very badly.
Maybe my arks were rolling badly, but I couldn't hit gak with them. And even when the hits got in, he usually hit his invuln (either a 4++ upgrade or the 3++ on his riptides) saves.
I don't think the list has enough offence to push back hard enough. I survived, sure, but it definitely ended in my loss.
