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Azuza001 wrote: You can't have the veil and the solar staff on the same model. The limit is 1 relic per charecter.
Ah, yes, true that.
Okay, edited to omit any mention of Solar Staff.
So 10 Deathmarks that reroll 1s to wound are typically seeing 4.3 wounds against a character after saves (T5, 2+, 3++).
If you could somehow get them +1 to hit (MWBD / Methodical Destruction) that would bump them up to 5.4 wounds against that same character per 10 Deathmarks.
Decent?
That's theoretically not too shabby. A Veil Lord with the Deathmarks in reserve ready to rock would seem like a nice little Vanguard detachment like I wanted to do, but I didn't think they'd be THAT effective against a Custodes character. Did you do the math on a Marine character or Death Guard character?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
What you said was either interpretation is valid (i.e., they could be either Elites or Troops). It's not. Right now, as the codex is written they can only be Elites, as the symbol on the dataslate is the only thing used to determine a unit's battlefield role. As this is off topic for this thread, if you wish to continue you can start a thread in YMDC.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
skoffs wrote: So 10 Deathmarks that reroll 1s to wound are typically seeing 4.3 wounds against a character after saves (T5, 2+, 3++).
If you could somehow get them +1 to hit (MWBD / Methodical Destruction) that would bump them up to 5.4 wounds against that same character per 10 Deathmarks.
That's theoretically not too shabby. A Veil Lord with the Deathmarks in reserve ready to rock would seem like a nice little Vanguard detachment like I wanted to do, but I didn't think they'd be THAT effective against a Custodes character. Did you do the math on a Marine character or Death Guard character?
Just against a generic T5 2+ 3++ statline.
Spoiler:
This is with Mephrit granting AP-1
And this is with +1 from either MWBD or Methodical Destruction
Almost identical wounds on our generic T5 2+ 3++ target, but if you could combine the two you'd get 5.4 wounds through on him on average.
If you want to try running the numbers on a more specific enemy give it a go here-
http://www.dice-hammer.com
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/24 19:47:18
Ghaz wrote: What you said was either interpretation is valid (i.e., they could be either Elites or Troops). It's not. Right now, as the codex is written they can only be Elites, as the symbol on the dataslate is the only thing used to determine a unit's battlefield role. As this is off topic for this thread, if you wish to continue you can start a thread in YMDC.
What I said was either has as much chance as being the error, which is true, 1 icon that could be the mistake is the same likelihood as 1 listing of troop could be the mistake.
I didn't say anything about the interpretation being more likely, in fact I agreed on interpretation.
No need to start a thread as I'm not arguing the interpretation, just made the idle comment that two items one correct and one incorrect, either could be the single mistake. I don't know why that is so hard to understand or is so worth arguing the incprrect point. Last post on the matter, wish I didn't bother in the first place, geesh.
I really dislike the more expensive Wraiths, and I don't see where they fit while Scarabs exist.
Scarabs are more tanky per point (against everything but S4 and only slightly worse there), do more damage per point, act as a better screen, and are cheap enough to hold backline objectives. Now that scarabs have fly, the only thing that wraiths have on them is an extra 2" of movement.
I can't imagine any time where I've got 165-330 points free for a squad of wraiths, where I wouldn't want 4x as many scarabs instead.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/24 20:50:29
So I had a thought - what about Novokh and silver tide?
Think about it -
You have a big blob of warriors
You fire at short range, so double shots
You then charge. You get rerolls due to the Dynasty Code.
You then activate the Novokh stratagem where a squad can attack twice. And the rerolls still count.
That is a lot of damage coming from a single unit in a single turn.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So I had a thought - what about Novokh and silver tide?
Think about it -
You have a big blob of warriors
You fire at short range, so double shots
You then charge. You get rerolls due to the Dynasty Code.
You then activate the Novokh stratagem where a squad can attack twice. And the rerolls still count.
That is a lot of damage coming from a single unit in a single turn.
Take Anrakyr for double atack. Its walid tackic but in moste case its better to wait for opponent charge. Then you got overwatch, character heroic intervention and 2A warriors blob. With lord aura look almoste like FO.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So I had a thought - what about Novokh and silver tide?
Think about it -
You have a big blob of warriors
You fire at short range, so double shots
You then charge. You get rerolls due to the Dynasty Code.
You then activate the Novokh stratagem where a squad can attack twice. And the rerolls still count.
That is a lot of damage coming from a single unit in a single turn.
Take Anrakyr for double atack. Its walid tackic but in moste case its better to wait for opponent charge. Then you got overwatch, character heroic intervention and 2A warriors blob. With lord aura look almoste like FO.
How is it better to wait for the opponent to charge? If fire and charge in your turn, you don't lost accuracy and you will probably be at full strength. If you want to be charged, then you won't as much and the enemy will probably shoot you first with full accuracy. Heroic intervention is pointless, as you can just charge with the character, and at long distances too.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Xachariah wrote: I really dislike the more expensive Wraiths, and I don't see where they fit while Scarabs exist.
Scarabs are more tanky per point (against everything but S4 and only slightly worse there), do more damage per point, act as a better screen, and are cheap enough to hold backline objectives. Now that scarabs have fly, the only thing that wraiths have on them is an extra 2" of movement.
I can't imagine any time where I've got 165-330 points free for a squad of wraiths, where I wouldn't want 4x as many scarabs instead.
I'd be interested to know the damage calculations against geqmeq and tea. Roughly 1 wraith = 4 scarabs in point cost so it wouldn't be too hard to compare them, especially against models with 2 wounds such as primaris
Aza'Gorod wrote: I'd be interested to know the damage calculations against geqmeq and tea. Roughly 1 wraith = 4 scarabs in point cost so it wouldn't be too hard to compare them, especially against models with 2 wounds such as primaris
Aza'Gorod wrote: I'd be interested to know the damage calculations against geqmeq and tea. Roughly 1 wraith = 4 scarabs in point cost so it wouldn't be too hard to compare them, especially against models with 2 wounds such as primaris
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So I had a thought - what about Novokh and silver tide?
Think about it -
You have a big blob of warriors
You fire at short range, so double shots
You then charge. You get rerolls due to the Dynasty Code.
You then activate the Novokh stratagem where a squad can attack twice. And the rerolls still count.
That is a lot of damage coming from a single unit in a single turn.
Take Anrakyr for double atack. Its walid tackic but in moste case its better to wait for opponent charge. Then you got overwatch, character heroic intervention and 2A warriors blob. With lord aura look almoste like FO.
How is it better to wait for the opponent to charge? If fire and charge in your turn, you don't lost accuracy and you will probably be at full strength. If you want to be charged, then you won't as much and the enemy will probably shoot you first with full accuracy. Heroic intervention is pointless, as you can just charge with the character, and at long distances too.
Overwatch was quite strong from rf and tessla. When you charge you stretch the tide lose hq buff and isolate some unit. Also in 8 rules meel fight dont protect your unit very much from shooting because of flatout posibility. After charge you are close to enemy, without buff and your unit are posibly die next turn.
On the other side counter atack give you posibility to kill charger unit in they turn and move on with shooting in the next one.
Aza'Gorod wrote: I'd be interested to know the damage calculations against geqmeq and tea. Roughly 1 wraith = 4 scarabs in point cost so it wouldn't be too hard to compare them, especially against models with 2 wounds such as primaris
I only wish there was a mathhammer tool that you could plug unit names into to compare (like BattleScribe, but for statistical analysis).
That's very handy thank you
Well unless I'm doing it wrong the only time scarabs outperform wraiths is when fighting models equivalent to themselves ironically, so ones with T3 and a 6+ armour save. Of course wraiths need to fight multi wound models to be better then scarabs so I think against any models with 2W wraiths are definitely superior. The major drop of is at T5 and armour 4+, but scarabs wound anything on 5+ so chart isn't completely accurate. I'd say scarabs are better against armies with low armour save as even with high number of attacks they still bounce off armour
Aza'Gorod wrote: Well unless I'm doing it wrong the only time scarabs outperform wraiths is when fighting models equivalent to themselves ironically, so ones with T3 and a 6+ armour save. Of course wraiths need to fight multi wound models to be better then scarabs so I think against any models with 2W wraiths are definitely superior. The major drop of is at T5 and armour 4+, but scarabs wound anything on 5+ so chart isn't completely accurate. I'd say scarabs are better against armies with low armour save as even with high number of attacks they still bounce off armour
skoffs wrote: I gave it a try, myself, using close equivalent points value (not entirely sure if I'm using this tool properly for melee, but here we go):
Results for 4 Scarabs-
Spoiler:
Results for 1 Wraith-
Spoiler:
Take from that what you will.
Thank you guys for looking into it and running numbers. It appears that the answer is I'm dumb. I'm using a custom script I'm writing for mathhammer, and I'd updated Wraith point costs to match the leaked codex, but not their weapon profile. So, my wraiths were incorrectly turning out pretty trash.
I'm rerunning my numbers now, and while they still seem worse at MEQ/GEQ and anything T7+, they're overall a LOT better now.
Unless I'm reading it wrong, those numbers are calculated with the wraiths at AP -1, and they are AP -2 now.
11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die. ++
Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
I'm a little behind on this thread, but have we talked about how all this Advance stuff and Tesla weapons is actually poop since it prevents them from getting 3 hits?
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
I am thinking of collecting Necrons as my second army(the first army being iron Hands), but one thing bugs me.
I usually play against Craftworld Aeldari and Tyranids. Both factions can bring large number of psykers.
Aeldari list typically has 1~2 Farseers, 2~3 hemlock wraithfighters and a couple of warlocks.
Tyranids roster has multiple zoanthropes and hive tyrants.
As far as I know, Canoptek Spyder's doomgloom and one of the warlord traits are the only options to stop psychic powers.
While Smite can only be manifested on closest enemy unit, either aeldari and tyranid psykers have plenty of mobility to focus smite on targets they want.
Because Reanimation Protocol works only if there are remaining models in a unit, I think massed smite can render the Reanimation Protocol useless.
Is there a way to mitigate the damage suffered from multiple, mobile psykers?
Smite spamming might be toned down if the "Beta Rules" announced by GW last year makes it into official matched play rules.
But until then, I have no idea.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/25 06:50:04
Sagittarii Orientalis wrote: I am thinking of collecting Necrons as my second army(the first army being iron Hands), but one thing bugs me.
I usually play against Craftworld Aeldari and Tyranids. Both factions can bring large number of psykers.
Aeldari list typically has 1~2 Farseers, 2~3 hemlock wraithfighters and a couple of warlocks.
Tyranids roster has multiple zoanthropes and hive tyrants.
As far as I know, Canoptek Spyder's doomgloom and one of the warlord traits are the only options to stop psychic powers.
While Smite can only be manifested on closest enemy unit, either aeldari and tyranid psykers have plenty of mobility to focus smite on targets they want.
Because Reanimation Protocol works only if there are remaining models in a unit, I think massed smite can render the Reanimation Protocol useless.
Is there a way to mitigate the damage suffered from multiple, mobile psykers?
Smite spamming might be toned down if the "Beta Rules" announced by GW last year makes it into official matched play rules.
But until then, I have no idea.
The best way to stop smite spam? KILL THAT WITCH. lol.
But really, it is the only way for Necron to handle smite spam.....
I think you might want to have some Deathmarks in your army, snipe those Eldar Farseers, Warlocks or Nidz Neuothropes, for the rest psykers in Nidz army (Hive Tyrant and Zoanthropes), just shoot them to death with anything that can dish out a ton of shots.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/25 07:38:55
DarknessEternal wrote: I'm a little behind on this thread, but have we talked about how all this Advance stuff and Tesla weapons is actually poop since it prevents them from getting 3 hits?
Right, I don't think Tesla would be a good choice for Sautekh Immortals, since you don't benefit from the rule. Gauss Blasters would be better in that case.
EDIT:
While not much on forgeworld has been discussed, the Sautekh Dynasty really Improves Tomb Sentinels due to the Exile cannon being heavy, as well as the Tessreact Ark Heavy D6 weapon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/25 07:42:32
DarknessEternal wrote: I'm a little behind on this thread, but have we talked about how all this Advance stuff and Tesla weapons is actually poop since it prevents them from getting 3 hits?
Right, I don't think Tesla would be a good choice for Sautekh Immortals, since you don't benefit from the rule. Gauss Blasters would be better in that case.
EDIT:
While not much on forgeworld has been discussed, the Sautekh Dynasty really Improves Tomb Sentinels due to the Exile cannon being heavy, as well as the Tessreact Ark Heavy D6 weapon.
Aye, but the point decrease on the DDA renders the TA a mite overcosted.
DarknessEternal wrote: I'm a little behind on this thread, but have we talked about how all this Advance stuff and Tesla weapons is actually poop since it prevents them from getting 3 hits?
Right, I don't think Tesla would be a good choice for Sautekh Immortals, since you don't benefit from the rule. Gauss Blasters would be better in that case.
Gauss immortals would not be able to shoot after advancing, so much more annoying on top. Another example how good GW undestands their own rules, suggesting tesla immortals for this.
Nearly all of our assault weapons are tesla, or mounted on units beeing more cc oriented and not able to charge afterwards.
In the case of wraiths it doesnt matter any way. So whats left?
Edit:
Can be usefull for positioning and objective grabbing, but else?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/25 07:56:26
24.000 Tyranids painted, still rising in numbers
4.000 Genestealer Cult
7.000
DarknessEternal wrote: I'm a little behind on this thread, but have we talked about how all this Advance stuff and Tesla weapons is actually poop since it prevents them from getting 3 hits?
Right, I don't think Tesla would be a good choice for Sautekh Immortals, since you don't benefit from the rule. Gauss Blasters would be better in that case.
EDIT:
While not much on forgeworld has been discussed, the Sautekh Dynasty really Improves Tomb Sentinels due to the Exile cannon being heavy, as well as the Tessreact Ark Heavy D6 weapon.
Aye, but the point decrease on the DDA renders the TA a mite overcosted.
This is quite true. the TA should probably see at least a 30 point drop at this point.
Maelstrom808 wrote: Unless I'm reading it wrong, those numbers are calculated with the wraiths at AP -1, and they are AP -2 now.
Ah, no, you are correct.
Here's the updated spread (hope I got them right this time)-
Spoiler:
So yeah, after looking at the results, it appears Scarabs are good against T3-T4, and Wraiths are good against T4-T6, but for T7 and up it swings back to Scarabs.
Also, the worse the saves the better Scarabs out perform Wraiths.
Conclusion: it would seem they both do in fact have roles in our armies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/25 08:20:27
DarknessEternal wrote: I'm a little behind on this thread, but have we talked about how all this Advance stuff and Tesla weapons is actually poop since it prevents them from getting 3 hits?
Right, I don't think Tesla would be a good choice for Sautekh Immortals, since you don't benefit from the rule. Gauss Blasters would be better in that case.
Gauss immortals would not be able to shoot after advancing, so much more annoying on top. Another example how good GW undestands their own rules, suggesting tesla immortals for this.
Nearly all of our assault weapons are tesla, or mounted on units beeing more cc oriented and not able to charge afterwards.
In the case of wraiths it doesnt matter any way. So whats left?
Edit:
Can be usefull for positioning and objective grabbing, but else?
Isn't sautekh the dynasty that lets you advance and fire weapons as assault? So gauss blasters become assault 1?
I do agree it's not really worth it though as your trading an extra d6 of movement for 1 shot so it's only use is to reposition the immortals quickly before they get into rapidfire range . It's more worth it for doom scythes (as you could move up to 80inch and shoot normally) and necron wraiths ( who could fire exile rays as assault d3 and using a stratagem charge afterwards)
~4100
~1660
7,000 pts
4000+
Thousand Sons 4000+
