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 skoffs wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I don't think the grading system is going to work very well due to the differences dynasties can make to how effective certain units are.

Yeah, it's probably going to be an "in general these units are ___" type of guide, going into further dynastic tactics later.
(all stuff being added to the top post for new players who come looking)

It's still worth having a rough guide I think. I don't like the monolith being a D but that's probably just wishful thinking on my part.

T. Ark: C. Pricier for similar number but worse shots than a DDA, it could have a role if you need Gauss Cannons more than you need Flayer Arrays, or if you want to add a 5++ at the cost of 2 strength, 3 AP, and 24” range.

Grading this unit at D feels a bit more of a knee jerk reaction to how much better DDAs got than how much worse TAs are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skoffs wrote:
Okay, for unit grading, this is what I've got for now-

Spoiler:

A = borderline auto include
B = really good
C = can be situationally decent
D = generally not worth it
F = straight up bad

Imotekh : B
Zahndrekh : C
Trazyn : D
Anrakyr : ?
*Kutlakh : ?
Obyron : C
Orikan : B
Szeras : B
*Toholk : ?

Command B : A
Overlord : A
D. Lord : C
Lord : B
Cloak-tek : B
Chrono-tek : B

G. Immortals : A
T. Immortals : A
Warriors : B
Ghost A. : B

G. Tomb Blades : A
T. Tomb Blades : A
Destroyers : A
Scarabs : A
Wraiths : B
*Acanthrites : ?
*To. Sentinel : B

Deathmarks : C
Flayed Ones : D
Scythe-guard : C
Shield-guard : C
Rod-Praets : D
Void-Praets : D
HGC Stalker : D
Heat Stalker : D
Part. Stalker : D
Deceiver : A
Night Br. : B
*To. Stalker : D

Spyder : C
H. Destroyers : C
A. Barge : C
Doomsday A. : A
Monolith : D
T. C'tan : B
*Tess. Ark : D
*S. Pylon : ?

Doom S. : C
Night S. : D
*N. Shroud : ?

Obelisk : F
T. Vault : A
*G. Pylon : B

Tomb Citadel : F

Obviously a work in progress.
If anything should be changed please comment with why you think it deserves a specific grade (will be including reasons when it gets added to the top post).

CCB: B. Paying an upgrade cost to turn your OL into a vehicle, you lose 4++, but gain 1 toughness, QS, a 12” movement profile, a Gauss Cannon (or a Tesla cannon; those GC seems more useful at the moment) and 6” additional range on MWBD for farther forward positioned infantry. At under 10W it still dodges direct fire, and it’s high movement profile gives it excellent positioning capacity and juking of incoming anti-character hate. It’s premium cost, however, should only be taken if useful, otherwise you’ve paid an additional 40pts for a basic Overlord. Dynasty considerations include Sautekh to ignore the Heavy penalty on the Gauss Cannon and Mephrit to allow your CCB to snipe characters (for CP).

Based on the rumor mill, I picked up 6 Tesla Tomb Blades with the Shield Vanes.

What are your thoughts on how best to use them? Mobile fire support and objective takers?

CCB almost mandates a lightning field if you take one. That said, I'm feeling like I want to include that setup in any infantry heavy list I'm making.

Tabletop tactics in their video using the new codex mentioned that the T Vault is over 500 points.

So it more than likely has kept the 4+ invul but yeesh I might have just spent $170 on a potential paper weight

 iGuy91 wrote:
Based on the rumor mill, I picked up 6 Tesla Tomb Blades with the Shield Vanes.

What are your thoughts on how best to use them? Mobile fire support and objective takers?

I'd take them as 2 units of 3 for objective garbbing/screening or buy another 3 and make a unit of 9. I think Necron units should be either min or max size to get the most out of RP.


The Tvault is NOT a paper weight. Scary as hell.

Particle Beamer Tomb Blades - Are these horrid? I noticed they didn't even appear in the grading post (sad face) since I like my old small blast template units.

24 points per unit vs 32 for Gauss or Tesla, so I get 4 for the price of 3. Same number of shots as Tesla but more models for better survival / reanimate.
Planning to go Nephrekh which means if I advance I can't fire Gauss, and the negative to Tesla removes its bonus. With the new -1 to hit and auto advance 6" dynasty I see PB as being a fast moving infantry killing option.

I will admit it isn't the best configuration but am I handicapped using it?

I think it's an option for a 72pt objective grabbing unit in a nephrek detachment. Move 20 and fire 9 S6 shots hitting on 4s.

 Ridge wrote:
Tabletop tactics in their video using the new codex mentioned that the T Vault is over 500 points.

So it more than likely has kept the 4+ invul but yeesh I might have just spent $170 on a potential paper weight

It's not, it's 496 like the beta dex, which is still close to 500. It's super hard to kill, and does pretty nuts damage.

I'll stick the rough draft grading on the top now with some of the changes.
Keep it up, guys.

I feel that you taking Particle Beamers on Tombblades are ideal for:
A) Cheap min 3 model units used as screening/objective grabbers or
B) 1 per larger unit to shave points and be the first casualty for the unit.

If you aren't doing A or B, Tesla or Guass are just way more "bang for you buck".

I personally prefer Gauss as AP -2 shreds more models due to cover + natural armour.
Sure Tesla has a higher wound output "potential", but that hardly matters when even Guardsman or Cultitst are getting 4+/5+ armour in cover.
Taking that armour away is worth losing 1 shot or two per volley (assuming rapidfire range, cuz why wouldn't you be in that range?)

-

All cryptek have B. Can we give them some hierarchy? I my opinion nameds are worst. Less flexible and more expensive.
For orikan i will give even C because they always too late right stars.

Feel the Tess. Ark should deserve a B instead of a C.

Over the doomsday ark it still has T7 instead of T6, so plasma and other str 7 weapons wont wreck it as easily.
Comes with a invun too, so can lower the amount the quantum shielding has to do.
And the upgrade to the Gauss cannons also makes this better too.

If the main shot was Str 9+, i would say its an auto include, but in my opinion its still a solid A unit

moonsmite wrote:
Feel the Tess. Ark should deserve a B instead of a C.

Over the doomsday ark it still has T7 instead of T6, so plasma and other str 7 weapons wont wreck it as easily.
Comes with a invun too, so can lower the amount the quantum shielding has to do.
And the upgrade to the Gauss cannons also makes this better too.

If the main shot was Str 9+, i would say its an auto include, but in my opinion its still a solid A unit

Plasma, in practice, is S8.

Ive tested out the T.vault a couple times now. The ammount of mortal wounds that thing is capable of is just plain disgusting. Pick your powers carefully and dont be afraid to burn the 1cp for an extra power after the other 3 go off. Make sure to remember that times arrow can now target characters since this is now done in the movement phase as well. Sky, seismic,cosmic fire are all capable of a hilarious ammount of wounds from the valut. Bought a second one after my first test. I may pick up a third if i decide i dont like having friends anymore.

Does Nemesor Zandrakh still have the "remove all auras" ability? If he does, he should really be ranked higher, as removing Synapse against our new Tyranid overlords would be very useful.

Wow so the Tess Vault really may be useful now? There's been one at my FLGS for a long time now, and has even had the box become sun-bleached... may have to actually think about picking it up.

Xachariah wrote:
Just go with the ultimate character killing alpha strike list. You know you want to...

Spoiler:

1998 points total
Mephrit Outrider
Cloaktek - 85 (With Veil)
Lord - 83 (Warlord, with Merciless Tyrant and Voltaic Staff)
Canoptek Scarab Swarm x3 - 39
Canoptek Scarab Swarm x3 - 39
Canoptek Scarab Swarm x3 - 39
C'tan Shard of the Deceiver - 225

Superheavy
T.Vault - 496
T.Vault - 496
T.Vault - 496

For when you absolutely have to delete every enemy character on turn 1.

Except you can't have 3 Time's arrows unless you roll for it. If you pick your powers you have to select all of them. In order to get 3 time's arrows, you have to pick 12 powers first before selecting it as your 13th power. T vaults can only have 4 powers each, iirc.

For everyone who shared advice regarding Imperial Guard, thanks. We are in a weird spot, because we are a "friendly" group, so don't always adhere strictly to rule-based set up. That said, certain types of table set up and long-distance deployments (short table edges vice long table edges) definitely give him a huge advantage and I'm not the only one who has noticed. We all used to meet at his place, but now enough of us have tables that the differences resulting from his preferred set up are stark.

Codex is looking great. I was running 3x tesseract arks so swapping to DDAs not only gets more effective post codex, it also frees up like 140 points. The HQ point reductions are also very helpful. There is a lot to be said for the extra unit or two that can be fielded as a result.

 Galef wrote:
I feel that you taking Particle Beamers on Tombblades are ideal for:
A) Cheap min 3 model units used as screening/objective grabbers or
B) 1 per larger unit to shave points and be the first casualty for the unit.

If you aren't doing A or B, Tesla or Guass are just way more "bang for you buck".

I personally prefer Gauss as AP -2 shreds more models due to cover + natural armour.
Sure Tesla has a higher wound output "potential", but that hardly matters when even Guardsman or Cultitst are getting 4+/5+ armour in cover.
Taking that armour away is worth losing 1 shot or two per volley (assuming rapidfire range, cuz why wouldn't you be in that range?)

-

So, doing the mathcraft on Particle Beamers versus Tesla (on TBs):

Particle Beamers are 10 points for 3 shots at Strength 6.
Tesla Carbines are 9 points for 2 shots (average of 3 shots) at Strength 5.

So for 1 extra point you get to wound on 2s versus Cultists/IG, and have less variance in the number of shots.

Considerations:
TBs can't get MWBD. Null benefit for Tesla.
TBs could receive Sautekh command for +1 to hit rolls. Benefit for Tesla (Sautekh contingent).
TBs could suffer -1 to hit against multiple army lists. Detriment for Tesla.

Seems like Beamers edge out except in extreme cases of min-maxing where you are 100% sure there will be no T3?

Thoughts?

Morris782 wrote:Particle Beamer Tomb Blades - Are these horrid? I noticed they didn't even appear in the grading post (sad face) since I like my old small blast template units.

24 points per unit vs 32 for Gauss or Tesla, so I get 4 for the price of 3. Same number of shots as Tesla but more models for better survival / reanimate.
Planning to go Nephrekh which means if I advance I can't fire Gauss, and the negative to Tesla removes its bonus. With the new -1 to hit and auto advance 6" dynasty I see PB as being a fast moving infantry killing option.

I will admit it isn't the best configuration but am I handicapped using it?

I actually like TB with Beamers. They're much cheaper, have S6 and do not rely on proc 6s so do not affected by -1 to hit such a way Tesla affected.
I'm going to run 3x6 TB with Beamers so they will not be affected by morale but potentially can reanimate. Still painting them, need another week or 2 to finish.

My go-to outrider detachment will be CCB warlord-character sniper with artifact 2dmg shotting, tesla instead of gauss cannon + 3x6 Beamer TB.
Another detachment will be 5x6 scarabs and 6xDestroyers in DS reserve. Have not decided about HQ yet. Maybe Destroyer Lord but he is too expensive and does not do much. But there is no character who can buff Destroyers or scarabs effectivily, maybe overlord or another CCB.
And third detachment is Lord + 3xDDA. Rerolling 1s to hit Dynasty.

This put me to 2k pts, TB shred light infantry, DDA shred tanks, Destroyers somewhere in the middle. Scarabs grab objectives, screen units.
I want also to find a room for C'Tan but not sure where i can fit him

sieGermans wrote:

Particle Beamers are 10 points for 3 shots at Strength 6.
Tesla Carbines are 9 points for 2 shots (average of 3 shots) at Strength 5.

So for 1 extra point you get to wound on 2s versus Cultists/IG, and have less variance in the number of shots.

Keep in mind that on TBs, you cannot just take 1 Telsa/Gauss. You always take 2.
So really, you need to compare 1 Particle beamer with 2 Tesla

As someone pointed out above, you can get:
3 Tesla TBs = 6 wounds, 12 shots (plus any bonus ones)
OR
4 Particle Beamer TBs = 8 wounds, also 12 shots, but no bonus shots.

Admittedly, those are pretty even. However, this is why I recommend Guass every time. AP -2 kills more models of ANY kind* than a small amount of extra shot.

*except Daemons, of course

-

Great point, Galef.

Regrettably, I forgot that you can only have one Particle Beamer per TB. To max dakka per Squad (assuming 9 TBs), you are better off with Tesla statistically, when comparing the two (ignoring cost).

Though for max casualties inflicted, the math changes (as per the AP rationale you presented), depending on context of course.

I'm going to run TB instead of warriors / immortals so i would prefer as cheap as possible.

So actually TB with no upgrades and beamer, buit-in -1 to hit as a 2 warriors replacement.

I plan on trying 2 x 20 warrior squads in deep strike with a squad of immortals with tessela next to a cryptek w/ veil as a way to get my silver tide into position safely first turn. Move a ghost ark up with them to keep it in range of the warriors, and 3 doomsday arks surrounded by scarabs and ccb with the lightning shield relic, and finally if I have points add a deceiver or c'tan shard for the final point of the list.

Everyone is super excited for dropping wraiths in up close, but I think warriors can be very effective.

Just as a reminder,
9 Mephrit Tesla Tomb Blades pump out an insane amount of damage against GEQ, and a pretty decent amount against everything else, as well.
(all of which is made even more insane by using the Talent for Annihilation strat on them, too)

But yeah, if against anything with a negative to-hit modifier you're better off with the other two weapon choices.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
I'm going to run TB instead of warriors / immortals so i would prefer as cheap as possible.

So actually TB with no upgrades and beamer, buit-in -1 to hit as a 2 warriors replacement.

Not technically a bad idea, however:
A) TBs are not Troops so you will be forced to use Outrider Detachements which do not have as many CPs as Battalions
B) The amount of points it would cost to give all you TBs a 3+ armour is well worth it. Keeping the cheap is one thing, but making them easy targets to be gunned down defeats their purpose, especially if you are using the least effective gun. Cheap TBs with Particle beamers need to be hard to kill as you are using them to screen and grab objectives.

-

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

And third detachment is Lord + 3xDDA. Rerolling 1s to hit Dynasty.

Lord aura cant afect DDA. Its only for infrantry.
For vehicle detachment we have cloactek or lack dynasty named char like szeras and anrakyr to buff another dynasty.

Azuza001 wrote:I plan on trying 2 x 20 warrior squads in deep strike with a squad of immortals with tessela next to a cryptek w/ veil as a way to get my silver tide into position safely first turn. Move a ghost ark up with them to keep it in range of the warriors, and 3 doomsday arks surrounded by scarabs and ccb with the lightning shield relic, and finally if I have points add a deceiver or c'tan shard for the final point of the list.

Everyone is super excited for dropping wraiths in up close, but I think warriors can be very effective.

As far as i see warriors do not do much damage. Also there're a lot of factions in meta (Eldars, Tyranids, Tau, SM) who can infiltrate and block half of the board so this deep striking blobs would be not effective.

Kuguar6 wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

And third detachment is Lord + 3xDDA. Rerolling 1s to hit Dynasty.

Lord aura cant afect DDA. Its only for infrantry.
For vehicle detachment we have cloactek or lack dynasty named char like szeras and anrakyr to buff another dynasty.

That's sucks :( So i think i'll use cryptek to repair them instead.
But after thinking i don't think it worth it. I would rather run DLord than cryptek who can only repair d3 instead of 1.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:I plan on trying 2 x 20 warrior squads in deep strike with a squad of immortals with tessela next to a cryptek w/ veil as a way to get my silver tide into position safely first turn. Move a ghost ark up with them to keep it in range of the warriors, and 3 doomsday arks surrounded by scarabs and ccb with the lightning shield relic, and finally if I have points add a deceiver or c'tan shard for the final point of the list.

Everyone is super excited for dropping wraiths in up close, but I think warriors can be very effective.

As far as i see warriors do not do much damage. Also there're a lot of factions in meta (Eldars, Tyranids, Tau, SM) who can infiltrate and block half of the board so this deep striking blobs would be not effective.

Kuguar6 wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

And third detachment is Lord + 3xDDA. Rerolling 1s to hit Dynasty.

Lord aura cant afect DDA. Its only for infrantry.
For vehicle detachment we have cloactek or lack dynasty named char like szeras and anrakyr to buff another dynasty.

That's sucks :( So i think i'll use cryptek to repair them instead.
But after thinking i don't think it worth it. I would rather run DLord than cryptek who can only repair d3 instead of 1.

My idea is ds for protection of the blob and make sure they are in range of something when they show up, not as much ds into their back lines or anything. I doubt they will be able to block the entire board and my deployment zone after their 1st Turn if they go first. I have had too many experiences with my 20 warriors being shot off the table before they can do anything. And if they do have a good front strike position to land in all the better.