I'm really sick of the Marine releases, to the point where I'm likely going to stop playing for a little bit of time.
The first PA book was a sliver of hope that has ultimately failed to excite me, as a non-Marine player.
I'm sick of Marines enjoying all the newest, best looking and most effective models compared to every other faction. I'm sick of marines having 95% of the focus. I'm sick of marines getting releases that overshadow all others.
I brought into the rhetoric GW fed us that things would be different in 8th. That they'd listen to the fanbase. That they were going to spread some of the love of new models. That they would balance models and factions as best they could, rather than on sales figures. It is starting to seem that this was all a load of hot air.
Things have been good, not great, but good. Slowly but surely it seems that GW are falling into old habits though. The new Marine releases are a joke. They are a joke in terms of competitive power. They are a joke in terms of focus. Why do only the blessed factions get sub faction specific codexes, units and models? Why am I expected to just accept that, as a consumer, if I don't play a Marine faction of some sort I will not get consistent, interesting or decent releases?
I appreciate that this is a whiny thread and I apologise for that. The reason I've made this thread is to see if anyone else feels the same and if there is any way to petition GW to change their stance.
You certainly aren't the only one who feels this way.
Over the years, DE have lost:
- Archons on Jetbikes
- Archons on Skyboards
- Haemonculi on Jetbikes
- Haemonculi on Skyboards
- Dracons
- Haemonculus Ancients
- Vect
- The Dais of Destruction
- Lady Malys
- Duke Sliscus
- Baron Sathonyx
- Kheradruakh the Decapitator
(To say nothing of the swathes of wargear that have been removed wholesale.)
And I don't even mean 'confined to index', I mean gone completely. The first five have been gone since 5th edition, the rest were all removed by the godawful 7th edition DE book.
Indeed, the only models DE has been given from 7th onwards have been:
- Replacement Archon sculpt (which looks far worse than the previous one)
- Replacement Haemonculus
- Replacement Drazhar
- Replacement Incubi
This is all we've had in the past 11 years or so.
But sure, it's far more important to just invent a whole new type of slightly-bigger Marine and dedicate everything to producing more and more of them. Oh and Roman Marines. Because how could the game have even survived without Roman Marines being added?
I'm not even asking for parity with Marines at this point. Just some table scraps and some prosthetic limbs to replace the ones they brutally hacked off.
Change in GW will take a long time.
I expect the latest releases were scheduled at the start of the year, and the models have been sat on the warehouse shelves until the books were in sight at the port. Only then will the announcements go out.
But yes, the amount of Marine stuff has been annoying. Most armies get a new boss model, and an semi-upgrade through a campaign book. I have been staying away from both. Eldar are getting new models and a campaign. Nice, but "no thanks".
If we cannot see the end of the release schedule, how many books are we going to have to buy before the new models stop trickling through?
I don't know what old GW was like, but to me their third book was GK, and there was nothing fun or exiting about it. It wasn't good when it came out, and back then there were like 3 other codex out. Seem to me a lot depends on luck with rules.
An eldar player may not care how many imperial or marine stuff comes out, when his army is good to play with. On the other hand a necron player, may question his army choice etc.
I get that people said to wait for the whole cycle to finish, wait for first CA, then FAQs, then second CA, but now that all those books were out, it seems to me, that at least from the stories I heard about other editions, there is really little difference, between now and then. There are huge gaps in power between armies, some armies get multiple updates, even when they don't need them, when others get one book per years. marines are the core of sales, so they get a ton of stuff. there is rules sources bloat, and focus on high price big model kits to build armies, and big armies with lots of models. But again those are not things I know, those are things I was told by people. could false, but if it isn't, then I don't really get why people would be suprised by how the game looks right now.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm really sick of the Marine releases, to the point where I'm likely going to stop playing for a little bit of time.
The first PA book was a sliver of hope that has ultimately failed to excite me, as a non-Marine player.
I'm sick of Marines enjoying all the newest, best looking and most effective models compared to every other faction. I'm sick of marines having 95% of the focus. I'm sick of marines getting releases that overshadow all others.
I brought into the rhetoric GW fed us that things would be different in 8th. That they'd listen to the fanbase. That they were going to spread some of the love of new models. That they would balance models and factions as best they could, rather than on sales figures. It is starting to seem that this was all a load of hot air.
Things have been good, not great, but good. Slowly but surely it seems that GW are falling into old habits though. The new Marine releases are a joke. They are a joke in terms of competitive power. They are a joke in terms of focus. Why do only the blessed factions get sub faction specific codexes, units and models? Why am I expected to just accept that, as a consumer, if I don't play a Marine faction of some sort I will not get consistent, interesting or decent releases?
I appreciate that this is a whiny thread and I apologise for that. The reason I've made this thread is to see if anyone else feels the same and if there is any way to petition GW to change their stance.
I've just got back into 40k after many years out (just reading BL books). Ironically, I played Space Orks (as they were then called) the first time round and now I'm playing Marines! (A custom BA successor chapter)
I can see where you're coming from. I'm hoping the new Sisters of Battle will liven things up. There was no AM when I was playing the first time, so they're interesting. Is the Psychic Awakening not giving the Eldar (sorry, Aeldari and Drukhari) a bit of a push?
I certainly do feel the Primaris marines and their vehicles have been pushed too hard and have been generally overspecced/overpowered.
In that regard, I do feel for players of other factions. I've always loved Craftworld Ulthwe, and if there had been a more balanced push, it's quite possible I would have Black Guardians sitting in my box instead of a winged chaplain and assault marines!
I play IFs as one of my main armies, and I'm sick of marine releases too, to be honest. I'd LOVE to see GW have a bit of faith in its property, and invest the time, rules and models in a wider diversity of factions. Yes, short term, they wouldn't sell so well, but they need to think long term too - widening and diversifying their player base is a very smart move, one that's paid dividends over the years. I don't think it's smart to keep hammering marine releases year on year like they've been doing. And I don't think it's ideal for the community either.
Finally, the other big releases of the year have been mainly Imperial - Knights, Custodians, Sisters. I think they've overcommitted in that direction. It's time for them to swing it back the other way a bit. Aspect warriors and new Necrons. Renegade Guard and Bezerkers. New Boyz and Harlies. Maybe a traitor and inquisition themed release for a while?
Having said all that, I do think that's what we'll see in the near future, now that the Primaris phase-1 release is close to complete. I just think they could have ordered the love better.
Im completely ambivalent to the latest Marine spammage.
Playing devils advocate, Im not sure GW had any choice but to focus on them. They are clearly mothballing OldMarines.
NuMarines as they stood before this release were fairly average to poor.
Hence the spate of new release, upgrades and new rules.
Ratius wrote: Im completely ambivalent to the latest Marine spammage.
Playing devils advocate, Im not sure GW had any choice but to focus on them. They are clearly mothballing OldMarines.
NuMarines as they stood before this release were fairly average to poor.
Hence the spate of new release, upgrades and new rules.
The issue is imo, that GW also managed to annoy alot more groups this time: Xenos, Chaos (especially regular CSM for obvious reasons) and FW army owners.
Additionally the way the Supplelments are handled, this stretched out of (in some cases) dubious quality controll rulewise and you generate the perfect storm for the animosity that was allready there due to underapreciation.
I also brought it up in another thread, but GW seems to not grasp the concept that investing in more armies, even if they initially not sell, is longterm better. (SoB desinvestment cycle and then beeing surprised about their poll is my exemple)
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Darian Aarush wrote: Rumours that there might be a Traitor Guard army in the works...
I'm a bit fed up of the bloat of marine rules, it was something I was initially keen about but the length of time between releases and the power level in the competitive meta isn't something I enjoy.
PA was a nice break but it's been a total flop compared to how pumped up the marine releases are (all of them really) and how poor the boxset and the updated rules are for the Xenos.
It's alienating the fanbase, especially the non-marine or even non-imperium players.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The reason I've made this thread is to see if anyone else feels the same and if there is any way to petition GW to change their stance.
I can answer the first part of that with a firm yes and no for myself.
GW has always come across as the Space Marine company and still do. They're everywhere, get prominent new releases, feature in much of the marketing and in most boxed sets that include two armies one side is Space Marines. In other words, it's hard not to feel like Space Marines are drowning out everything else.
On the other hand, Marines don't get that many more model releases than everyone else. Not in the amount it's often portrayed. The latest Marine release, stretched out as it is, consists of two infantry kits and two vehicle kits. And an endless stream of clampack characters, but more on that in a bit. Just the actual non-character units are by no means excessive for a model release that coincides with a codex. That's moderately sized for GW, and usually only armies that are completely overhauled or entirely new can expect to get more than that.
The difference between Marines and other armies is that GW gives Marines this type of release with every codex, while other armies may only get a book update and their model release comes only with every second or third codex, or is thrown in with a campaign book. It keeps Marines up to date and allows GW to expand and overhaul an already extensive range without much trouble, whereas everyone else gets left behind a little more with every overhaul of the codex. This is in my opinion what people should be tired of, not so much GW giving Marines new models but doing so while consciously allowing other armies to fall so far behind that they couldn't be brought up to date with two of those moderately sized model releases, let alone the single one they may get on occasion.
The things that GW seems to be able to produce effortlessly and with certain caveats for everyone is books and clampack characters. Starting with the latter, Dark Eldar got their big army update in 2010 after waiting for it for twelve years. The range was mostly redone with Covens getting models only after half a year. Since then they got planes, plastic Wracks and clampack characters. Necrons got a considerable model range increase in 2011. Since then they got the Tesseract Vault and clampack characters. Something something Marine Lieutenants, special characters, through the update rush of 8th ed codices where few books got what could be considered a a real model update there was a relatively high number of character releases, and so forth. It genuinely seems like no matter what other production bottlenecks may hold up GW, they don't have trouble throwing out clampack characters.
This is interesting in so far as technically GW does give other armies models, even though they don't actually solve practical problems players have with their range.Using Necrons as an example again, it's been eight years since they got a real army release. That's a long time to wait for something new. On the other hand, they got a new model for every codex since then. This is something I think doesn't usually make it into conversations when Marine overload comes up. There seems to be this weird acknowledgement from GW that armies other than Marines should get new releases as well, but more often than not they end up as token releases and you don't know if you should be happy that you got anything at all or upset that you were basically passed over again while the next Marine codex is sure to hand out new goodies.
The other thing next to clampack characters is books. GW doesn't seem to have trouble rolling out book release after book release. This is where I think Marines legitimately get an excessive amount. Previously it was the Big Four when a single codex for loyalist Marines would have been good enough, then a couple of supplements on top of that, and now we have a book for every loyalist legion. Plus they are of course featured in campaign books. I (obviously) disagree with how Marine rules are spread out over who knows how many publications, but due to my grim outlook on GW's writing and design quality I can't I see why anyone should be envious, upset or tired of the Marine skew in this regard. The only thing more books accomplish is that you have to pay more money to get the same badly designed rules you'd otherwise have concentrated in your codex. More books are simply easy money for GW. They're effortless to produce, are only detrimental to the game's quality because the same number of writers have to produce an increasing number of books, and the background in them is not a noteworthy expansion on the codex in size considering GW has Black Library and lots of authors dedicated to producing fiction. A couple of dozen pages in a supplement will simply not be an increase worth considering. That's before you consider that some of it may be material taken from an older codex or Index Astartes.
So for me it's not so much Marine fatigue because of any substantial model releases but the dormancy of entire model lines that are not Marines that's the problem, and considering that that's been true for as long as I played 40k I don't see any change at this time compared to how it's previously been.
As for the last point of that quote, what more compelling petition than the increasing financial success GW had for the duration of 8th ed can you think of? That's really the problem with new GW compared to old GW. Kirby's GW was in decline and it was certain that if you waited long enough, they simply had to change course and implement change. GW of today is in such a comfortable position that they need not worry about trying to change for the better because what they're doing now is popular as has the revenue to back it up that the only changes they're going to implement are ones that are bad for the consumers.
Karol wrote:
An eldar player may not care how many imperial or marine stuff comes out, when his army is good to play with.
eldars have basically only one competitive build. sure they are in the top but they have many models that aren't playable (aspect warriors, vypers, falcons, warwalkers, phoenix lords, avatar, warlock conclave, wraithlords and wraithknights).
Tyranid Horde wrote:I'm a bit fed up of the bloat of marine rules, it was something I was initially keen about but the length of time between releases and the power level in the competitive meta isn't something I enjoy.
PA was a nice break but it's been a total flop compared to how pumped up the marine releases are (all of them really) and how poor the boxset and the updated rules are for the Xenos.
It's alienating the fanbase, especially the non-marine or even non-imperium players.
whats stupid is that they tried building hype for PA for a month... while they kept releasing supplements. so even when it was the elf's turn to shine, its still all about marines. Also, the powerlevel difference is unbelieveable. marines just get too much free gak compared to other factions, its completely stupid and bound to break somewhere (IH). The more combos you add, the harder it is to spot the problematic ones in development.
I understand the sentiment, but I try to look at it from a positive point: No new stuff for xenos means I don't have to spend any money on new kits. GW is inadvertently saving me a lot of money.
Eldarsif wrote: I understand the sentiment, but I try to look at it from a positive point: No new stuff for xenos means I don't have to spend any money on new kits. GW is inadvertently saving me a lot of money.
This is true. It's pretty expensive (and exhausting) being a SM player!
There was a fair bit of love for Mechanicus and Imperial Knights for a bit there.
It helps with riding the Cawl "Mary Sue" wagon-train.
Eldar in general do seem to be coasting, little interesting had happened since way back they got their various aircraft.
Nectrons are up there for not seeing much of anything.
Tau and Orks got a little bit of attention, my friend and his "Kult of Speed" is happier.
I am finding my fun on the rather stagnant line of Imperial Guard because there is so much of the stuff that they dare-not retire.
GW does need to rebrand their true-scale, erhm, "Primaris" marines so they will get a bit more focus for a bit.
I just wish my shelved Grey Knight army could see a bit of the love that the Custodes got.
Chaos is along for the ride, good thing they are like Orks and you can mix old with new and the differing scale and that is all OK due to the "warp" it explains everything.
One major contributing factor is that the game has far too many factions currently, but that's something that people often "think" they want. We're at around...what 26 factions at the moment? And until this Phoenix Awakening release, GW had been sticking to "release a bunch of models for a faction, or none" (and no I don't count a single HQ figure every 2-3 years as a genuine release).
Even if GW tries to cycle through its factions, it can be 2-3-4 years between releases, and I don't even mean new models. Look at Eldar, yeah the book is mediocre outside of a handful of ultra-song units, but the model line is an embarrassment still. I'm not even asking for new units, but rather actual models that can be purchased for the armies that exist.
I think the game would be far better with 10-12 factions which were heavily/frequently supported. If you play a fringe army (Grey Knights, Harlequins, etc.) outside of some rules...do you genuinely think you're even being considered until a major revamp/release? Highly doubtful. Those entire armies were essentially cash grabs so they could sell a few extra kits, another codex and some cards/dice/paraphenalia. GW has realized that new models/kits sell far more than supporting the original codices though, so I don't know when we'll see the wave of new armies stop. Unfortunately for each new army that comes out - you're looking at less and less attention paid to your army.
Example: Eldar Craftworlds range is a mess of metals from 1993, and finecast garbage for a host of their "main" combat units...but instead we'll do an entire range of Harlequin plastics before actually bringing the main Eldar line up to snuff (also we'll give Dark Eldar a - needed - revamp of full plastic in that same time period as well, though they let several units die on the vine in that process). Why? because a "new" army sells better than actual plastic Aspect Warriors or Phoenix Lords or Avatars, etc. This is about sales and nothing more.
The players I feel the worst for are players like Death Guard and Thousand Sons players. Fringe units turned into armies, but new and limited armies. I'll be shocked if we see a new genuine DG or TS model/unit in the next 2-3 years. But then if they do receive new models it'll again be at the sacrifice of Orks, Tau, Tyranids, etc. etc. etc.
It's simply too many factions to keep up to date and pay attention to...but more factions; more books, more sales, etc.
Elbows wrote: One major contributing factor is that the game has far too many factions currently, but that's something that people often "think" they want. We're at around...what 26 factions at the moment? And until this Phoenix Awakening release, GW had been sticking to "release a bunch of models for a faction, or none" (and no I don't count a single HQ figure every 2-3 years as a genuine release).
Even if GW tries to cycle through its factions, it can be 2-3-4 years between releases, and I don't even mean new models. Look at Eldar, yeah the book is mediocre outside of a handful of ultra-song units, but the model line is an embarrassment still. I'm not even asking for new units, but rather actual models that can be purchased for the armies that exist.
I think the game would be far better with 10-12 factions which were heavily/frequently supported. If you play a fringe army (Grey Knights, Harlequins, etc.) outside of some rules...do you genuinely think you're even being considered until a major revamp/release? Highly doubtful. Those entire armies were essentially cash grabs so they could sell a few extra kits, another codex and some cards/dice/paraphenalia. GW has realized that new models/kits sell far more than supporting the original codices though, so I don't know when we'll see the wave of new armies stop. Unfortunately for each new army that comes out - you're looking at less and less attention paid to your army.
Example: Eldar Craftworlds range is a mess of metals from 1993, and finecast garbage for a host of their "main" combat units...but instead we'll do an entire range of Harlequin plastics before actually bringing the main Eldar line up to snuff (also we'll give Dark Eldar a - needed - revamp of full plastic in that same time period as well, though they let several units die on the vine in that process). Why? because a "new" army sells better than actual plastic Aspect Warriors or Phoenix Lords or Avatars, etc. This is about sales and nothing more.
The players I feel the worst for are players like Death Guard and Thousand Sons players. Fringe units turned into armies, but new and limited armies. I'll be shocked if we see a new genuine DG or TS model/unit in the next 2-3 years. But then if they do receive new models it'll again be at the sacrifice of Orks, Tau, Tyranids, etc. etc. etc.
It's simply too many factions to keep up to date and pay attention to...but more factions; more books, more sales, etc.
You may be right. All we can really hope at this point is that they are experimenting with these Howling Banshee models and that if they do sell well they'll start considering more older kits to be revamped. I'm extremely tempted to just give all my stuff away and start scouring ebay etc for 90's models anyway at this point though!
Elbows wrote: One major contributing factor is that the game has far too many factions currently, but that's something that people often "think" they want. We're at around...what 26 factions at the moment? And until this Phoenix Awakening release, GW had been sticking to "release a bunch of models for a faction, or none" (and no I don't count a single HQ figure every 2-3 years as a genuine release).
Even if GW tries to cycle through its factions, it can be 2-3-4 years between releases, and I don't even mean new models. Look at Eldar, yeah the book is mediocre outside of a handful of ultra-song units, but the model line is an embarrassment still. I'm not even asking for new units, but rather actual models that can be purchased for the armies that exist.
I think the game would be far better with 10-12 factions which were heavily/frequently supported. If you play a fringe army (Grey Knights, Harlequins, etc.) outside of some rules...do you genuinely think you're even being considered until a major revamp/release? Highly doubtful. Those entire armies were essentially cash grabs so they could sell a few extra kits, another codex and some cards/dice/paraphenalia. GW has realized that new models/kits sell far more than supporting the original codices though, so I don't know when we'll see the wave of new armies stop. Unfortunately for each new army that comes out - you're looking at less and less attention paid to your army.
Example: Eldar Craftworlds range is a mess of metals from 1993, and finecast garbage for a host of their "main" combat units...but instead we'll do an entire range of Harlequin plastics before actually bringing the main Eldar line up to snuff (also we'll give Dark Eldar a - needed - revamp of full plastic in that same time period as well, though they let several units die on the vine in that process). Why? because a "new" army sells better than actual plastic Aspect Warriors or Phoenix Lords or Avatars, etc. This is about sales and nothing more.
The players I feel the worst for are players like Death Guard and Thousand Sons players. Fringe units turned into armies, but new and limited armies. I'll be shocked if we see a new genuine DG or TS model/unit in the next 2-3 years. But then if they do receive new models it'll again be at the sacrifice of Orks, Tau, Tyranids, etc. etc. etc.
It's simply too many factions to keep up to date and pay attention to...but more factions; more books, more sales, etc.
You may be right. All we can really hope at this point is that they are experimenting with these Howling Banshee models and that if they do sell well they'll start considering more older kits to be revamped. I'm extremely tempted to just give all my stuff away and start scouring ebay etc for 90's models anyway at this point though!
The banshees would be shifting far faster with a better box featuring them though!
I could try to post some lengthy reply, why I agree, but it is a simple as this: I dislike marines and although I get that they are GWs bestseller, the sheer amount of attention they get is rediculous
The players I feel the worst for are players like Death Guard and Thousand Sons players. Fringe units turned into armies, but new and limited armies. I'll be shocked if we see a new genuine DG or TS model/unit in the next 2-3 years. But then if they do receive new models it'll again be at the sacrifice of Orks, Tau, Tyranids, etc. etc. etc.
It's simply too many factions to keep up to date and pay attention to...but more factions; more books, more sales, etc.
Clowns, TSons, and GKs never should have been their own armies. Or they should have done TSons better cause DG got more unique units. Or at least it feels that way.
Clowns have no business being a "full" army. GKs were stretched into one by adding bloat units. Same with DW.
I would have much rather seen an "Imperium Supplement: Inquisition" book that had GKs, DW, and some new inquisition units. But it would be intended to be a supplement to other imperial armies like inq is supposed to be.
Instead though we'll probably get a half assed WD index for inquisition, or they'll get squatted.
I would have much rather seen an "Imperium Supplement: Inquisition" book that had GKs, DW, and some new inquisition units. But it would be intended to be a supplement to other imperial armies like inq is supposed to be.
all this achives that GK units are now never taken, because other options in the same book are either better, better and cheaper, or cheaper.
The players I feel the worst for are players like Death Guard and Thousand Sons players. Fringe units turned into armies, but new and limited armies. I'll be shocked if we see a new genuine DG or TS model/unit in the next 2-3 years. But then if they do receive new models it'll again be at the sacrifice of Orks, Tau, Tyranids, etc. etc. etc.
It's simply too many factions to keep up to date and pay attention to...but more factions; more books, more sales, etc.
Clowns, TSons, and GKs never should have been their own armies. Or they should have done TSons better cause DG got more unique units. Or at least it feels that way.
Clowns have no business being a "full" army. GKs were stretched into one by adding bloat units. Same with DW.
I would have much rather seen an "Imperium Supplement: Inquisition" book that had GKs, DW, and some new inquisition units. But it would be intended to be a supplement to other imperial armies like inq is supposed to be.
Instead though we'll probably get a half assed WD index for inquisition, or they'll get squatted.
This:
THe mainline C:SM chapters should've been in the base codex whilest the real exotic units should've been handled in a supplement.
I quite like Marines. While I do not play them per se as an army, my sons do and I have quite a collections of Marines and Chaos Marines just to paint and display. What I DON'T like is the slow release of minis and ridiculous rules bloat.
There are just WAAAAAY too many rules now. Chapter Tactics were a fun idea and I like the mechanics of Stratagems. But I feel we have long past the critical mass of just too many of either. Factions Attributes (like Chapter Tactics) should just be there to add extra flavor, but not be meta defining. And Strats should just be there to give a extra push to a turn or two, not be the defacto strategy required for some most units.
So much of the extra bloat for Marines could easily have been paired down and incorporated in their profiles (2W/2A basic Marines with AP-1 bolters, for example). Primaris could then be S/T5 with Gravis being +1W/T to that. No need for Shock Assualt if everything have the right amount of attacks from the start. No need for Combat Doctrines if the basic weapon already has the right AP and everything is bumped from there.
Not Online!!! wrote: This: THe mainline C:SM chapters should've been in the base codex whilest the real exotic units should've been handled in a supplement.
I would have much rather seen an "Imperium Supplement: Inquisition" book that had GKs, DW, and some new inquisition units. But it would be intended to be a supplement to other imperial armies like inq is supposed to be.
all this achives that GK units are now never taken, because other options in the same book are either better, better and cheaper, or cheaper.
and this changes what to the current state of the GK?
I would have much rather seen an "Imperium Supplement: Inquisition" book that had GKs, DW, and some new inquisition units. But it would be intended to be a supplement to other imperial armies like inq is supposed to be.
all this achives that GK units are now never taken, because other options in the same book are either better, better and cheaper, or cheaper.
GKs sucking is its own issue. They could be in an inquisition book AND be good if they were written better.
Ishagu wrote: Marines sell well. GW just had an Eldar release, peopled weren't excited and did a lot of complaining.
Yeah because the eldar release SUCKED.
From the base price of the box and it's contents to questionable design sofar no wonder the Eldar players were annoyed.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm really sick of the Marine releases, to the point where I'm likely going to stop playing for a little bit of time.
The first PA book was a sliver of hope that has ultimately failed to excite me, as a non-Marine player.
I'm sick of Marines enjoying all the newest, best looking and most effective models compared to every other faction. I'm sick of marines having 95% of the focus. I'm sick of marines getting releases that overshadow all others.
I brought into the rhetoric GW fed us that things would be different in 8th. That they'd listen to the fanbase. That they were going to spread some of the love of new models. That they would balance models and factions as best they could, rather than on sales figures. It is starting to seem that this was all a load of hot air.
Things have been good, not great, but good. Slowly but surely it seems that GW are falling into old habits though. The new Marine releases are a joke. They are a joke in terms of competitive power. They are a joke in terms of focus. Why do only the blessed factions get sub faction specific codexes, units and models? Why am I expected to just accept that, as a consumer, if I don't play a Marine faction of some sort I will not get consistent, interesting or decent releases?
I appreciate that this is a whiny thread and I apologise for that. The reason I've made this thread is to see if anyone else feels the same and if there is any way to petition GW to change their stance.
It sounds like you don't necessarily need to take a break from playing so much as just skipping reading marine-centric threads on the internet. Unless your group is largely marine and/or plays on the bleed edge of meta with marines where maybe waiting for the marine supplement dust to settle. Then it might be a good idea to sit out a couple of months of games.
Like it or not, space marines probably make up the lion's share of profit for GW. You can argue the woulda, shoulda, couldas of how to make other factions more popular and maybe they would work. But GW didn't think so and this is where we are at. I think it is also important to think of Primaris as a whole new faction rather than space marines. I also think far too many players group all space marines (Loyalists, Chaos, Grey Knights, etc.) as one faction making it seem as if they got two major releases this year (Loyalist and Chaos) when they really didn't. I am not saying you are, but I sometimes get that impression.
I think GW is working on trying to work on all factions and trying to balance they game as best they can. It is easy to forget that a few months ago basically one load-out for Intercessors and Agressors were really the only units that were good for Primaris with most of their units being kinda subpar. Even now, several Primaris units are still lacking outside some niche things they can do. All the concern over Iron Hands has almost nothing to do with the new models added (Feiros not withstanding) but the rules. The game has a system in place to deal with it. It doesn't look like the FAQ got it smoothed out, but perhaps the CA will.
I don't think the new marines are a joke in that they are too powerful. I only do a little better with the new codex. There probably is some really good stuff in the new rules, but I am still playing the same army I was playing before it more or less. I play a nicely painted army of the units I want to play. I try my best, but I am not overly concerned about winning. I don't think 40k is the kind of game to get too worked up about winning and losing because player ability to affect that on the table is some much less than most of the other games I play. I am certainly a terrible player but even if I played very well and had average dice rolls, there are match ups that I will lose nearly every game in 40k. I just don't see the need to get worked up about a game that can do that. And that sort of thing isn't going to be fixed by some Dakka threads or a petition.
The only way that marines aren't going to be the focus is if there is a large and sustained amount of money going into buying non-marine product. I am not going to argue the whys that isn't happening. I know there are several reasons already. I am just saying that GW would need to see enough money to remove the inertia they have to start to expand other faction ranges at the pace that they do with space marines. I think these models are coming anyways. Just at a slower pace.
Again, I think you are getting worked up about something you have no control over (nor does anyone else here). I think avoiding all the space marine threads might be the best course of action. Barring that, try to focus on the positive of things. A little bit of complaining/griping is fine, but the posts of yours I remember are ones endlessly complaining about how bad the Orks have it and how great the marines have it. There is some truth to that, but there is also a bit of greener pastures too. So try and remember what you like about the hobby rather than fixating on what you don't. This is supposed to be fun. If it isn't, you are doing it wrong.
I would have much rather seen an "Imperium Supplement: Inquisition" book that had GKs, DW, and some new inquisition units. But it would be intended to be a supplement to other imperial armies like inq is supposed to be.
all this achives that GK units are now never taken, because other options in the same book are either better, better and cheaper, or cheaper.
GKs sucking is its own issue. They could be in an inquisition book AND be good if they were written better.
That is a lighting striking twice scenario I think. Stil with the rule of 3, it would mean that GK players would have to buy a ton of new models. Unless GW left strikes and termintors and cut out paladins and interceptors. But then they would really have to overload the GK with rules. To make a 21pts or 46pts troops option valid, when a 12-13pts marine is considered costing too much. not impossible, but would require a IH treatment.
Yeah because the eldar release SUCKED.
yeah the tax of 3 bad units, one units everyone will have, and models duplicated from other boxs and start collecting sets, was kind of a too much. Maybe if the vyper/falcon were free, but they already almost free on 2ed hand market.
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I don't think the new marines are a joke in that they are too powerful. I only do a little better with the new codex. There probably is some really good stuff in the new rules, but I am still playing the same army I was playing before it more or less. I play a nicely painted army of the units I want to play. I try my best, but I am not overly concerned about winning. I don't think 40k is the kind of game to get too worked up about winning and losing because player ability to affect that on the table is some much less than most of the other games I play.
you know this is so many "ifs" to not worry, it is hard to describe. So to not worry you not only have to have enough money to play multiple armies, maybe even games, but also paint your models, and play in a place where no one cares about winning. That is a lot of things that have to happen in a playgroup to make the whole thing work.
Now I understand if someone played w40k for 30+ years, waiting 6 or 12 months ain't much. But if someone plays for a year or just started hearing that they now have to learn to love to paint, and wait months for stuff to maybe fix itself is mighty discouraging.
I see the Whaaaaaag is back, I think of it like this yes the marine release has been overstretched but chances are that it has been done so because they simply have nothing else ready to release.
If the marines had been released over a shorter period chances are they would have just been filler stuff released from AoS or warcry or some other game nobody cares about.
Less marine releases do not mean more of other releases, strictly speaking marines to a point subsidised the other factions that make less money which is pretty much all of them outside Tau.
If marines are not released it's just as likely another random filler game will be put out if they think it will make more money than orks for example.
cmspano wrote: Clowns, TSons, and GKs never should have been their own armies. Or they should have done TSons better cause DG got more unique units. Or at least it feels that way.
Clowns have no business being a "full" army. GKs were stretched into one by adding bloat units. Same with DW.
The players I feel the worst for are players like Death Guard and Thousand Sons players. Fringe units turned into armies, but new and limited armies. I'll be shocked if we see a new genuine DG or TS model/unit in the next 2-3 years. But then if they do receive new models it'll again be at the sacrifice of Orks, Tau, Tyranids, etc. etc. etc.
It's simply too many factions to keep up to date and pay attention to...but more factions; more books, more sales, etc.
Clowns, TSons, and GKs never should have been their own armies. Or they should have done TSons better cause DG got more unique units. Or at least it feels that way.
Clowns have no business being a "full" army. GKs were stretched into one by adding bloat units. Same with DW.
I would have much rather seen an "Imperium Supplement: Inquisition" book that had GKs, DW, and some new inquisition units. But it would be intended to be a supplement to other imperial armies like inq is supposed to be.
Instead though we'll probably get a half assed WD index for inquisition, or they'll get squatted.
I would be satisfied with a Codex: Inquisition instead of Codex: Grey Knights, Codex: Sisters of Battle, and Codex: Deathwatch. That said, both Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters were larger armies at one point, until everything else got stripped away.
The players I feel the worst for are players like Death Guard and Thousand Sons players. Fringe units turned into armies, but new and limited armies. I'll be shocked if we see a new genuine DG or TS model/unit in the next 2-3 years. But then if they do receive new models it'll again be at the sacrifice of Orks, Tau, Tyranids, etc. etc. etc.
It's simply too many factions to keep up to date and pay attention to...but more factions; more books, more sales, etc.
Clowns, TSons, and GKs never should have been their own armies. Or they should have done TSons better cause DG got more unique units. Or at least it feels that way.
Clowns have no business being a "full" army. GKs were stretched into one by adding bloat units. Same with DW.
I would have much rather seen an "Imperium Supplement: Inquisition" book that had GKs, DW, and some new inquisition units. But it would be intended to be a supplement to other imperial armies like inq is supposed to be.
Instead though we'll probably get a half assed WD index for inquisition, or they'll get squatted.
I would be satisfied with a Codex: Inquisition instead of Codex: Grey Knights, Codex: Sisters of Battle, and Codex: Deathwatch. That said, both Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters were larger armies at one point, until everything else got stripped away.
That would be really nice, might make for a lot better deal, though we know sisters are getting their own codex.
Ishagu wrote: Marines sell well. GW just had an Eldar release, peopled weren't excited and did a lot of complaining.
I mean, I can't speak for every eldar player, but I'm not excited because I can't yet buy any of the new stuff.
it's only in a ridiculously expensive box set full of crappy units I already own.
I'd buy the new Drazar, or maybe the new Incubi, possibly even the new banshees as well once my paint backlog clears up a little more. But as of right now, I can't. So, hype level pretty much 0.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: It sounds like you don't necessarily need to take a break from playing so much as just skipping reading marine-centric threads on the internet. Unless your group is largely marine and/or plays on the bleed edge of meta with marines where maybe waiting for the marine supplement dust to settle. Then it might be a good idea to sit out a couple of months of games.
Again, I think you are getting worked up about something you have no control over (nor does anyone else here). I think avoiding all the space marine threads might be the best course of action. Barring that, try to focus on the positive of things. A little bit of complaining/griping is fine, but the posts of yours I remember are ones endlessly complaining about how bad the Orks have it and how great the marines have it. There is some truth to that, but there is also a bit of greener pastures too. So try and remember what you like about the hobby rather than fixating on what you don't. This is supposed to be fun. If it isn't, you are doing it wrong.
Avoiding the SM threads on the internet? I could never visit another forum again and I would still be bombarded with SM news, releases, rumours and models. They're all over the GW website, they're all over the GW mailshot, they're all over the GW community page, they're in every White Dwarf and they flood every game store. There is quite literally no way to participate in this hobby without getting Marine after Marine after Marine news/article/whatever thrown in your face. Why do you think 40k is synonymous with Marines? Do you think that was an accident or by GWs design? I know what I think.
It's too much. It's relentless. As someone said perfectly earlier in the thread - it is alienating a massive portion of the playerbase. This alienating has pushed me to take a break from the hobby.
The reason I will stop playing is because I am simply not playing the same game as my Marine counterparts and I don't don't find that fun. You're exactly correct in that this is supposed to be fun. The current set up is not fun.
You can look at my post history, I don't think you'll find much complaining from me about the Marine releases (apart from their frequency, which is tiresome) until it became apparent that they were absolutely broken. Orks are the strongest they have been for years. I just find their competitive builds incredibly boring, is all.
I would be satisfied with a Codex: Inquisition instead of Codex: Grey Knights, Codex: Sisters of Battle, and Codex: Deathwatch. That said, both Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters were larger armies at one point, until everything else got stripped away.
That would be really nice, might make for a lot better deal, though we know sisters are getting their own codex.
SoB really aren't a chamber militant in the same way than GK and DW are, they're part of the Ecclesiarchy. So Sisters can have their own book with other Ecclesiarchy stuff, and GK and DW can go to the Inquisition book.
Ishagu wrote: Marines sell well. GW just had an Eldar release, peopled weren't excited and did a lot of complaining.
2 points
1st its more expensive than any box set before that I can recall and I have so far bought all of the box sets (in some cases like assault on black reach 7 or 8, and dark vengence 4 or 5) .
2nd its all Eldar but it is also part Craftworld, part dark eldar. This makes it difficult to justify unless you collect both armies. Additionally several of the kits in the box are quite old. You will be hard pressed to find a Craftworld Eldar player in need of more grav tanks or vypers if they have been playing for a while. I hear similar complaints from the dark elves though I avoid the scum and villany of the commorough myself. Compare this to shadowspear where (again if i recall correctly) every kit in there was something new.
personally this may be the first box set i do not buy though I am interested in new Jain Zar and plastic banshees when they get their own release.
I think the issue is that I can't really see where GW is taking the other factions.
PA has left me if anything de-hyped. I was interested to know where they were taking Eldar of all flavours. The answer is nowhere. In the light of the Marine codexes this is obviously a stopgap book, that might be fun for playing some scenarios with your mates, but I don't think fundamentally alters how any of the factions play at a vaguely serious level. It doesn't change the factions or give them a new lease of life. And just 2 kits per faction, which are borderline re-prints of models which yes were ancient, but were not exactly impossible to get hold of.
I'm not obsessed about as Vipoid - but DE as a faction just seems to get smaller and smaller as they cut it up into tinier and tinier parts. We really need some new stuff to patch over the chasms. Or to build Kabals/Covens/Cults into their own thing. Rather than mini-factions with no more units than Harlequins. (Who I don't mind being their own thing, they could just do with another unit or two as well.)
It feels a bit like Vigilus. "Oh this is cool, oh wait, no, its a sort of cosmetic DLC that you are going to be bored off in six months. Just more clutter to consider."
This goes just as much for the CSM 2.0 codex, which has to now look as a rather sad cash in to flog some Lord Discordants.
So I am not made bitter by the Marine releases - I just don't have much hope for anyone else.
Agree with the OP, I am utterly tired of Space Marines. Its even worse when you go in lore related forums and about a third of the posts are Marines or Primarchs related, personally I blame the HH for that.
Bobthehero wrote: Agree with the OP, I am utterly tired of Space Marines. Its even worse when you go in lore related forums and about a third of the posts are Marines or Primarchs related, personally I blame the HH for that.
I also agree with the general sentiment of the OP and yours. There is so much Space Marines, even as the release of Jain Zar, Drazhar, Incubi, Banshees, both armies I collect, I was starting to consider shifting toward Age of Sigmar before I realised I would have a massive Stormcast Eternal problem there too. I do to blame the Horus Heresy surge of novels, but it was already fairly endemic with Space Marine novels outnumbering all others combined by a wide margin. It's like if GW is running adds only for one product in their line of 20 and then get's amazed at how well that product sells and decides to double down on it twice harder. It's basically a recepe to push all other consumer out of there.
Bobthehero wrote: Its even worse when you go in lore related forums and about a third of the posts are Marines or Primarchs related, personally I blame the HH for that.
Oh my god this.
All day this.
If I see another "Who would win? Magnus with one arm missing or Guilliman but with Angron's left leg" or "Would Angron have been a good guy if he had a completely different early life, never landed on the planet he ended up on and was loved by his Dad da God Emprah?" I'm going to weep. Internally at least.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: It sounds like you don't necessarily need to take a break from playing so much as just skipping reading marine-centric threads on the internet. Unless your group is largely marine and/or plays on the bleed edge of meta with marines where maybe waiting for the marine supplement dust to settle. Then it might be a good idea to sit out a couple of months of games.
Again, I think you are getting worked up about something you have no control over (nor does anyone else here). I think avoiding all the space marine threads might be the best course of action. Barring that, try to focus on the positive of things. A little bit of complaining/griping is fine, but the posts of yours I remember are ones endlessly complaining about how bad the Orks have it and how great the marines have it. There is some truth to that, but there is also a bit of greener pastures too. So try and remember what you like about the hobby rather than fixating on what you don't. This is supposed to be fun. If it isn't, you are doing it wrong.
Avoiding the SM threads on the internet? I could never visit another forum again and I would still be bombarded with SM news, releases, rumours and models. They're all over the GW website, they're all over the GW mailshot, they're all over the GW community page, they're in every White Dwarf and they flood every game store. There is quite literally no way to participate in this hobby without getting Marine after Marine after Marine news/article/whatever thrown in your face. Why do you think 40k is synonymous with Marines? Do you think that was an accident or by GWs design? I know what I think.
It's too much. It's relentless. As someone said perfectly earlier in the thread - it is alienating a massive portion of the playerbase. This alienating has pushed me to take a break from the hobby.
The reason I will stop playing is because I am simply not playing the same game as my Marine counterparts and I don't don't find that fun. You're exactly correct in that this is supposed to be fun. The current set up is not fun.
You can look at my post history, I don't think you'll find much complaining from me about the Marine releases (apart from their frequency, which is tiresome) until it became apparent that they were absolutely broken. Orks are the strongest they have been for years. I just find their competitive builds incredibly boring, is all.
I am pretty sure most of the population of the world has managed to avoid GW space marines on the internet. So I think it is quite easy to avoid them there. Same with most forums. That post is coming on rather extreme like space marines haunt your dreams and you are uncontrollably compelled to read more about space marines despite your protests. However, I hope I get what you are saying is, "Avoiding the SM threads on the 40k portion of the internet?"
Well yeah, they make up most of the player base and have for some time. You might have noticed they tend to be on the covers BRB and other general stuff over the last 20-30 years. It is kinda what 40k is known for. That would be living in Manchester and being a fan of football yet tired of see United stuff on the local sports forums. But you know what? You don't have to open any of those threads/pages that are specifically about space marines. It won't avoid them completely but that should cut down you exposure of space marines considerably.
"There is quite literally no way to participate in this hobby without getting Marine after Marine after Marine news/article/whatever thrown in your face."
Once again do you mean the 40k HHHobby? Because that quote again reads very extremist/obsessive to me. I was in miniatures war gaming long before playing 40k, and I mostly certainly never encountered marine after marine article unless you are talking about USMC in the Pacific Campaign. Even with 40k, one could easily participate in this hobby avoid that by simply not reading them. Which is what I am getting at. You don't want to read about space marines? Then don't, period. Only you control want you read. Again, have the self control to not click on those threads, articles, links, etc. specifically about space marines. You don't need to read much more than the BRB, your codex, the FAQ and maybe the CA to play this game, and even that stuff can be greatly reduced if you have an easy going group. You can completely get by in the hobby just painting anything not space marine and never have to worry about that sort of thing again. If you want more on non-space marine stuff start some of it yourself. That is about the most control you can have.
There being too much space marine stuff seems like more of personal perception thing. I have a Primaris space marine army, and I barely know what is going on marines. I don't need to click on every single thing concerning space marines and try to stay current. I knew from the outset I wasn't getting a chapter supplement as my marines are 2nd legion. I don't really care what's in them becuase I don't need my army to be the best it possibly can be. I just use only the codex and try to make it work the best I can. Which playing games of full 40k is sort of rare thing for me, as I still mostly play Kill Team. And in my neck of the woods it is all about the Tyranids. Every player in my group has a Tyranid team, and I have been playing them near back to back. I can't say I am much better as I am currently playing GSC. So it is tyranid, tyranid, GSC, tyranid, tyranid everywhere for me. So I can get it being too much to some extent. It is a bit annoying, but I can't control what my opponent wants to play. I can control not reading anything concerning tyranids and Kill Team though.
I am not going to look at your post history as I told you my general impression of you has been that your are grumpy about the state of Orks mostly concerning units that aren't competitive, not that Orks themselves aren't competitive at all. And you seem to really have it in for Space Marines. I am sure you can point to posts here and there that contradict that. I just wanted to give you my impression of you based on what I have read here on Dakka cat this point. I don't know if others share that opinion.
Don't get me wrong. I want all finecast gone from 40k. I think it is kinda said that the industry leader still has basic building block units in not plastic still. I also want to see each faction have a good selection of model and unit choices and 40k is far from that. The state of Eldar models is kinda embarrassing that it is just now being dealt with. Even the Orks should probably have their Kommandos, Tank Bustas and Storm Boyz as plastic kits at this point. I want every major faction to have more even footing. However, I not going to do via crab mentality. Which is what your rant seems to want.
Bobthehero wrote: Its even worse when you go in lore related forums and about a third of the posts are Marines or Primarchs related, personally I blame the HH for that.
Oh my god this.
All day this.
If I see another "Who would win? Magnus with one arm missing or Guilliman but with Angron's left leg" or "Would Angron have been a good guy if he had a completely different early life, never landed on the planet he ended up on and was loved by his Dad da God Emprah?" I'm going to weep. Internally at least.
I'm a marine player and I've come to the conclusion that the Primarchs were a huge mistake.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I am pretty sure most of the population of the world has managed to avoid GW space marines on the internet. So I think it is quite easy to avoid them there. Same with most forums. That post is coming on rather extreme like space marines haunt your dreams and you are uncontrollably compelled to read more about space marines despite your protests. However, I hope I get what you are saying is, "Avoiding the SM threads on the 40k portion of the internet?"
You could read what I have written? What I am saying is all there - it is impossible to participate in the 40k hobby without getting bombarded by SM from every possible direction, whether in GW stores, on their website, on forums, in magazines, in the literature etc etc etc
Well yeah, they make up most of the player base and have for some time. You might have noticed they tend to be on the covers BRB and other general stuff over the last 20-30 years. It is kinda what 40k is known for. That would be living in Manchester and being a fan of football yet tired of see United stuff on the local sports forums. But you know what? You don't have to open any of those threads/pages that are specifically about space marines. It won't avoid them completely but that should cut down you exposure of space marines considerably.
Your football analogy is apt because it can be used to help perfectly describe what is happening here (the problem is you've used it completely wrong). What it's actually like is as if you were supporting a particular team, looking forward to match of the day every week, then getting 55 minutes detailed analysis of the Utd match and all of the other matches are crammed into the final 5 minutes as an afterthought. This is what it is to be a 40k fan that doesn't play Marines.
"There is quite literally no way to participate in this hobby without getting Marine after Marine after Marine news/article/whatever thrown in your face."
Once again do you mean the 40k HHHobby? Because that quote again reads very extremist/obsessive to me. I was in miniatures war gaming long before playing 40k, and I mostly certainly never encountered marine after marine article unless you are talking about USMC in the Pacific Campaign. Even with 40k, one could easily participate in this hobby avoid that by simply not reading them. Which is what I am getting at. You don't want to read about space marines? Then don't, period. Only you control want you read. Again, have the self control to not click on those threads, articles, links, etc. specifically about space marines. You don't need to read much more than the BRB, your codex, the FAQ and maybe the CA to play this game, and even that stuff can be greatly reduced if you have an easy going group. You can completely get by in the hobby just painting anything not space marine and never have to worry about that sort of thing again. If you want more on non-space marine stuff start some of it yourself. That is about the most control you can have.
Y'know what? You could also control yourself. If you don't like what I'm saying in this thread that I have made on a public forum feel free not to click on it. Feel free not to respond. Feel free not to attempt to tell me how I should feel about something that irritates me (and others, apparently). I do believe it is impossible to participate in this hobby in any meaningful way without getting flooded with SM information. That in and of itself isn't a bad thing (although it is tiring). The thing that annoys me is that one minute GW is claiming "OMG guyz just wait for this EPIC GLOBAL CAMPAIGN that will feature releases and stuff for EVERY FACTIONNN, you will LOVE ITTT!!!" and then releases a ton of stuff for Marines, spends more time hyping them up and has clearly put infinitely more effort into their release. So that campaign for everyone is actually a load of horse gak and unless I play Marines I have very little to be excited about. For context, this is after a boxed set that contained an entire set's worth of new models for Marines, new models for Marines released in a previous "campaign" where they were the clear focus, a load of new models at the start of 8th for them and of course a history of getting the lion's share of resource every previous edition, ironically when GW are literally claiming that things are different this edition. I am also sick of GW's bull gak.
There being too much space marine stuff seems like more of personal perception thing.
Really? It must just be me then. I'm sure no one will agree with this OP.
I am not going to look at your post history as I told you my general impression of you has been that your are grumpy about the state of Orks mostly concerning units that aren't competitive, not that Orks themselves aren't competitive at all. And you seem to really have it in for Space Marines. I am sure you can point to posts here and there that contradict that. I just wanted to give you my impression of you based on what I have read here on Dakka cat this point. I don't know if others share that opinion.
Well I can tell you that your general impression is wrong. I have nothing against Space Marines particularly. I have an issue with any faction that is so much better than anything else that it becomes un-fun to play or a requirement of playing competitively. I also have an issue with GW not "spreading the love" in terms of releases for literally anything else.
One thing not release space marines, other thing to release bit less so that other factions could get new model or two or semi decent codex once in a while.
Would it kill GW to say use 95% of effort toward marines instead and put that little bit extra for other factions?
As a marine player myself I completely agree with this. The primaris reboot will probably make them money in the short run but both in design and background I consider them toxic to the hobby on many levels.
The marine line was more than complete and I would have preferred GW had focused on the other model lines than the endless parade of new marines.
Mr Morden wrote: I have several Marine armies and am bored stupid of the constant and unrelenting new marine releases that mean virtually nothing else gets done.
Yeah we had a brief breather for a fairly crappy boxed set of eldar but only so we could plunge back into - marine releases.
Every week its the same.
Meanwhile whole armies and factions stagnate or simply do not exist even though they would fit nicely conceptually.
From traitor guard and cults to Tau and auxillia to eldar range and their ancientness. Not to mention Corsairs or dehq choices.
But WE NEEED that new primaris phopos plebian Leutnant.
Marines are my favorite army and I have fatigue at this point. This all should have been 1 big release....to drag this out doesn't even make business sense...fanatical players will just buy everything they want. Just release everything at once...
Too much special snowflakes. Marines are Marines to me.
The backlog of yet to be updated models creates a problem IMO when it comes time to that faction's next Codex release. Why? GW likes to create new units and new models of new units in order to generate hype. If a faction's Codex release just consisted of updating the old models, I'm sure many people would complain of it being "boring". However by devoting time to new units, the backlogged updating falls even further behind.
Maybe this Phoenix Rising release is a sign of a new trickle release strategy for such factions, but I'm doubtful it will make a huge dent unless GW starts doing an updated model release in every wave. For example, how many more Aspects and Phoenix Lords need updating? I seriously doubt we are going to see a new Phoenix Lord and Aspect show up in every Psychic Awakening (or later equivalent) release, in time for everything to be updated before the next Eldar Codex.
I like that there is new models and the new codex was nice, but the supplements were unnecessary. They're just bloat, cause balance problems and hog the release schedule.
They should have just released the codex and the associated models in one batch and then moved to other things.
Xenomancers wrote: Marines are my favorite army and I have fatigue at this point. This all should have been 1 big release....to drag this out doesn't even make business sense...fanatical players will just buy everything they want. Just release everything at once...
Too much special snowflakes. Marines are Marines to me.
It does make buisness sense though because it stabilizes earnings which looks nice to investors.
Blame stockmarkets i guess
Iracundus wrote: The backlog of yet to be updated models creates a problem IMO when it comes time to that faction's next Codex release. Why? GW likes to create new units and new models of new units in order to generate hype. If a faction's Codex release just consisted of updating the old models, I'm sure many people would complain of it being "boring". However by devoting time to new units, the backlogged updating falls even further behind.
Maybe this Phoenix Rising release is a sign of a new trickle release strategy for such factions, but I'm doubtful it will make a huge dent unless GW starts doing an updated model release in every wave. For example, how many more Aspects and Phoenix Lords need updating? I seriously doubt we are going to see a new Phoenix Lord and Aspect show up in every Psychic Awakening (or later equivalent) release, in time for everything to be updated before the next Eldar Codex.
Five more Aspect Warriors, six if you want to update Dire Avengers and five more Phoenix Lords. You can add one more in each category if you want to import the Forge World Shadow Spectres. One per month would basically mean about five or six month of release. That's quite a bit. Add a new Aspect Warrior type at the end and you basically golden.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I am pretty sure most of the population of the world has managed to avoid GW space marines on the internet. So I think it is quite easy to avoid them there. Same with most forums. That post is coming on rather extreme like space marines haunt your dreams and you are uncontrollably compelled to read more about space marines despite your protests. However, I hope I get what you are saying is, "Avoiding the SM threads on the 40k portion of the internet?"
You could read what I have written? What I am saying is all there - it is impossible to participate in the 40k hobby without getting bombarded by SM from every possible direction, whether in GW stores, on their website, on forums, in magazines, in the literature etc etc etc
Well yeah, they make up most of the player base and have for some time. You might have noticed they tend to be on the covers BRB and other general stuff over the last 20-30 years. It is kinda what 40k is known for. That would be living in Manchester and being a fan of football yet tired of see United stuff on the local sports forums. But you know what? You don't have to open any of those threads/pages that are specifically about space marines. It won't avoid them completely but that should cut down you exposure of space marines considerably.
Your football analogy is apt because it can be used to help perfectly describe what is happening here (the problem is you've used it completely wrong). What it's actually like is as if you were supporting a particular team, looking forward to match of the day every week, then getting 55 minutes detailed analysis of the Utd match and all of the other matches are crammed into the final 5 minutes as an afterthought. This is what it is to be a 40k fan that doesn't play Marines.
"There is quite literally no way to participate in this hobby without getting Marine after Marine after Marine news/article/whatever thrown in your face."
Once again do you mean the 40k HHHobby? Because that quote again reads very extremist/obsessive to me. I was in miniatures war gaming long before playing 40k, and I mostly certainly never encountered marine after marine article unless you are talking about USMC in the Pacific Campaign. Even with 40k, one could easily participate in this hobby avoid that by simply not reading them. Which is what I am getting at. You don't want to read about space marines? Then don't, period. Only you control want you read. Again, have the self control to not click on those threads, articles, links, etc. specifically about space marines. You don't need to read much more than the BRB, your codex, the FAQ and maybe the CA to play this game, and even that stuff can be greatly reduced if you have an easy going group. You can completely get by in the hobby just painting anything not space marine and never have to worry about that sort of thing again. If you want more on non-space marine stuff start some of it yourself. That is about the most control you can have.
Y'know what? You could also control yourself. If you don't like what I'm saying in this thread that I have made on a public forum feel free not to click on it. Feel free not to respond. Feel free not to attempt to tell me how I should feel about something that irritates me (and others, apparently). I do believe it is impossible to participate in this hobby in any meaningful way without getting flooded with SM information. That in and of itself isn't a bad thing (although it is tiring). The thing that annoys me is that one minute GW is claiming "OMG guyz just wait for this EPIC GLOBAL CAMPAIGN that will feature releases and stuff for EVERY FACTIONNN, you will LOVE ITTT!!!" and then releases a ton of stuff for Marines, spends more time hyping them up and has clearly put infinitely more effort into their release. So that campaign for everyone is actually a load of horse gak and unless I play Marines I have very little to be excited about. For context, this is after a boxed set that contained an entire set's worth of new models for Marines, new models for Marines released in a previous "campaign" where they were the clear focus, a load of new models at the start of 8th for them and of course a history of getting the lion's share of resource every previous edition, ironically when GW are literally claiming that things are different this edition. I am also sick of GW's bull gak.
There being too much space marine stuff seems like more of personal perception thing.
Really? It must just be me then. I'm sure no one will agree with this OP.
I am not going to look at your post history as I told you my general impression of you has been that your are grumpy about the state of Orks mostly concerning units that aren't competitive, not that Orks themselves aren't competitive at all. And you seem to really have it in for Space Marines. I am sure you can point to posts here and there that contradict that. I just wanted to give you my impression of you based on what I have read here on Dakka cat this point. I don't know if others share that opinion.
Well I can tell you that your general impression is wrong. I have nothing against Space Marines particularly. I have an issue with any faction that is so much better than anything else that it becomes un-fun to play or a requirement of playing competitively. I also have an issue with GW not "spreading the love" in terms of releases for literally anything else.
Oh, I don't mind you ranting about this topic at all. I just think this is a lot less about playing 40k than it is reading about 40k. Your OP was all about no longer wanting to play 40k because their is too much being written about space marines. Which I kindly, I thought, suggested maybe cutting back on reading threads, articles, whatever concerning space marines as a way to relieve this issue. Then you responded saying it was literally impossible. Which I disagree with. Visiting any 40k site is completely optional to enjoying Warhammer 40k as a hobby. You sound more and more like someone angry at the stuff on social media and when the suggestion of maybe cutting back on using it, you become hostile about it. That is all I suggesting. Maybe cut back on the sites you visit and in particular avoid clicking on the stuff you know is going to be about space marines. Maybe try to play the non-marine opponents in your area. I think that is a far more workable solution to the: Hey guys I think all the threads, articles, etc. about space marines is negatively affecting the hobby because we are all tired of talking about space marines and we should stop.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I am pretty sure most of the population of the world has managed to avoid GW space marines on the internet. So I think it is quite easy to avoid them there. Same with most forums. That post is coming on rather extreme like space marines haunt your dreams and you are uncontrollably compelled to read more about space marines despite your protests. However, I hope I get what you are saying is, "Avoiding the SM threads on the 40k portion of the internet?"
You could read what I have written? What I am saying is all there - it is impossible to participate in the 40k hobby without getting bombarded by SM from every possible direction, whether in GW stores, on their website, on forums, in magazines, in the literature etc etc etc
Well yeah, they make up most of the player base and have for some time. You might have noticed they tend to be on the covers BRB and other general stuff over the last 20-30 years. It is kinda what 40k is known for. That would be living in Manchester and being a fan of football yet tired of see United stuff on the local sports forums. But you know what? You don't have to open any of those threads/pages that are specifically about space marines. It won't avoid them completely but that should cut down you exposure of space marines considerably.
Your football analogy is apt because it can be used to help perfectly describe what is happening here (the problem is you've used it completely wrong). What it's actually like is as if you were supporting a particular team, looking forward to match of the day every week, then getting 55 minutes detailed analysis of the Utd match and all of the other matches are crammed into the final 5 minutes as an afterthought. This is what it is to be a 40k fan that doesn't play Marines.
"There is quite literally no way to participate in this hobby without getting Marine after Marine after Marine news/article/whatever thrown in your face."
Once again do you mean the 40k HHHobby? Because that quote again reads very extremist/obsessive to me. I was in miniatures war gaming long before playing 40k, and I mostly certainly never encountered marine after marine article unless you are talking about USMC in the Pacific Campaign. Even with 40k, one could easily participate in this hobby avoid that by simply not reading them. Which is what I am getting at. You don't want to read about space marines? Then don't, period. Only you control want you read. Again, have the self control to not click on those threads, articles, links, etc. specifically about space marines. You don't need to read much more than the BRB, your codex, the FAQ and maybe the CA to play this game, and even that stuff can be greatly reduced if you have an easy going group. You can completely get by in the hobby just painting anything not space marine and never have to worry about that sort of thing again. If you want more on non-space marine stuff start some of it yourself. That is about the most control you can have.
Y'know what? You could also control yourself. If you don't like what I'm saying in this thread that I have made on a public forum feel free not to click on it. Feel free not to respond. Feel free not to attempt to tell me how I should feel about something that irritates me (and others, apparently). I do believe it is impossible to participate in this hobby in any meaningful way without getting flooded with SM information. That in and of itself isn't a bad thing (although it is tiring). The thing that annoys me is that one minute GW is claiming "OMG guyz just wait for this EPIC GLOBAL CAMPAIGN that will feature releases and stuff for EVERY FACTIONNN, you will LOVE ITTT!!!" and then releases a ton of stuff for Marines, spends more time hyping them up and has clearly put infinitely more effort into their release. So that campaign for everyone is actually a load of horse gak and unless I play Marines I have very little to be excited about. For context, this is after a boxed set that contained an entire set's worth of new models for Marines, new models for Marines released in a previous "campaign" where they were the clear focus, a load of new models at the start of 8th for them and of course a history of getting the lion's share of resource every previous edition, ironically when GW are literally claiming that things are different this edition. I am also sick of GW's bull gak.
There being too much space marine stuff seems like more of personal perception thing.
Really? It must just be me then. I'm sure no one will agree with this OP.
I am not going to look at your post history as I told you my general impression of you has been that your are grumpy about the state of Orks mostly concerning units that aren't competitive, not that Orks themselves aren't competitive at all. And you seem to really have it in for Space Marines. I am sure you can point to posts here and there that contradict that. I just wanted to give you my impression of you based on what I have read here on Dakka cat this point. I don't know if others share that opinion.
Well I can tell you that your general impression is wrong. I have nothing against Space Marines particularly. I have an issue with any faction that is so much better than anything else that it becomes un-fun to play or a requirement of playing competitively. I also have an issue with GW not "spreading the love" in terms of releases for literally anything else.
Oh, I don't mind you ranting about this topic at all. I just think this is a lot less about playing 40k than it is reading about 40k. Your OP was all about no longer wanting to play 40k because their is too much being written about space marines. Which I kindly, I thought, suggested maybe cutting back on reading threads, articles, whatever concerning space marines as a way to relieve this issue. Then you responded saying it was literally impossible. Which I disagree with. Visiting any 40k site is completely optional to enjoying Warhammer 40k as a hobby. You sound more and more like someone angry at the stuff on social media and when the suggestion of maybe cutting back on using it, you become hostile about it. That is all I suggesting. Maybe cut back on the sites you visit and in particular avoid clicking on the stuff you know is going to be about space marines. Maybe try to play the non-marine opponents in your area. I think that is a far more workable solution to the: Hey guys I think all the threads, articles, etc. about space marines is negatively affecting the hobby because we are all tired of talking about space marines and we should stop.
besides, most of the threads relate to new releases, we've known about these releases for awhile now. Why click on a thread titled "Imperial Fists" or "Imperial Fists supplement rumors"or "will I feel bad using blue iron hands?" if you don't wanna hear about space Marines? These are all threads An Actual Englishman has posted on. I'm not saying he's not welcome to post (sometimes it's good to have a non marine players prespective in marine threads) but if he's sick of marine discussion he can just ignore threads relating to it. I mean, nothing is stopping you from starting your own threads to discuss what you're intrested in.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I am pretty sure most of the population of the world has managed to avoid GW space marines on the internet. So I think it is quite easy to avoid them there. Same with most forums. That post is coming on rather extreme like space marines haunt your dreams and you are uncontrollably compelled to read more about space marines despite your protests. However, I hope I get what you are saying is, "Avoiding the SM threads on the 40k portion of the internet?"
You could read what I have written? What I am saying is all there - it is impossible to participate in the 40k hobby without getting bombarded by SM from every possible direction, whether in GW stores, on their website, on forums, in magazines, in the literature etc etc etc
Well yeah, they make up most of the player base and have for some time. You might have noticed they tend to be on the covers BRB and other general stuff over the last 20-30 years. It is kinda what 40k is known for. That would be living in Manchester and being a fan of football yet tired of see United stuff on the local sports forums. But you know what? You don't have to open any of those threads/pages that are specifically about space marines. It won't avoid them completely but that should cut down you exposure of space marines considerably.
Your football analogy is apt because it can be used to help perfectly describe what is happening here (the problem is you've used it completely wrong). What it's actually like is as if you were supporting a particular team, looking forward to match of the day every week, then getting 55 minutes detailed analysis of the Utd match and all of the other matches are crammed into the final 5 minutes as an afterthought. This is what it is to be a 40k fan that doesn't play Marines.
"There is quite literally no way to participate in this hobby without getting Marine after Marine after Marine news/article/whatever thrown in your face."
Once again do you mean the 40k HHHobby? Because that quote again reads very extremist/obsessive to me. I was in miniatures war gaming long before playing 40k, and I mostly certainly never encountered marine after marine article unless you are talking about USMC in the Pacific Campaign. Even with 40k, one could easily participate in this hobby avoid that by simply not reading them. Which is what I am getting at. You don't want to read about space marines? Then don't, period. Only you control want you read. Again, have the self control to not click on those threads, articles, links, etc. specifically about space marines. You don't need to read much more than the BRB, your codex, the FAQ and maybe the CA to play this game, and even that stuff can be greatly reduced if you have an easy going group. You can completely get by in the hobby just painting anything not space marine and never have to worry about that sort of thing again. If you want more on non-space marine stuff start some of it yourself. That is about the most control you can have.
Y'know what? You could also control yourself. If you don't like what I'm saying in this thread that I have made on a public forum feel free not to click on it. Feel free not to respond. Feel free not to attempt to tell me how I should feel about something that irritates me (and others, apparently). I do believe it is impossible to participate in this hobby in any meaningful way without getting flooded with SM information. That in and of itself isn't a bad thing (although it is tiring). The thing that annoys me is that one minute GW is claiming "OMG guyz just wait for this EPIC GLOBAL CAMPAIGN that will feature releases and stuff for EVERY FACTIONNN, you will LOVE ITTT!!!" and then releases a ton of stuff for Marines, spends more time hyping them up and has clearly put infinitely more effort into their release. So that campaign for everyone is actually a load of horse gak and unless I play Marines I have very little to be excited about. For context, this is after a boxed set that contained an entire set's worth of new models for Marines, new models for Marines released in a previous "campaign" where they were the clear focus, a load of new models at the start of 8th for them and of course a history of getting the lion's share of resource every previous edition, ironically when GW are literally claiming that things are different this edition. I am also sick of GW's bull gak.
There being too much space marine stuff seems like more of personal perception thing.
Really? It must just be me then. I'm sure no one will agree with this OP.
I am not going to look at your post history as I told you my general impression of you has been that your are grumpy about the state of Orks mostly concerning units that aren't competitive, not that Orks themselves aren't competitive at all. And you seem to really have it in for Space Marines. I am sure you can point to posts here and there that contradict that. I just wanted to give you my impression of you based on what I have read here on Dakka cat this point. I don't know if others share that opinion.
Well I can tell you that your general impression is wrong. I have nothing against Space Marines particularly. I have an issue with any faction that is so much better than anything else that it becomes un-fun to play or a requirement of playing competitively. I also have an issue with GW not "spreading the love" in terms of releases for literally anything else.
Oh, I don't mind you ranting about this topic at all. I just think this is a lot less about playing 40k than it is reading about 40k. Your OP was all about no longer wanting to play 40k because their is too much being written about space marines. Which I kindly, I thought, suggested maybe cutting back on reading threads, articles, whatever concerning space marines as a way to relieve this issue. Then you responded saying it was literally impossible. Which I disagree with. Visiting any 40k site is completely optional to enjoying Warhammer 40k as a hobby. You sound more and more like someone angry at the stuff on social media and when the suggestion of maybe cutting back on using it, you become hostile about it. That is all I suggesting. Maybe cut back on the sites you visit and in particular avoid clicking on the stuff you know is going to be about space marines. Maybe try to play the non-marine opponents in your area. I think that is a far more workable solution to the: Hey guys I think all the threads, articles, etc. about space marines is negatively affecting the hobby because we are all tired of talking about space marines and we should stop.
besides, most of the threads relate to new releases, we've known about these releases for awhile now. Why click on a thread titled "Imperial Fists" or "Imperial Fists supplement rumors"or "will I feel bad using blue iron hands?" if you don't wanna hear about space Marines? These are all threads An Actual Englishman has posted on. I'm not saying he's not welcome to post (sometimes it's good to have a non marine players prespective in marine threads) but if he's sick of marine discussion he can just ignore threads relating to it. I mean, nothing is stopping you from starting your own threads to discuss what you're intrested in.
Why are you both ignoring the fact that my complaint has nothing to do with posters on forums discussing Marines and everything to do with GW's obsession with them? Why are you both attempting to strawman so desperately here?
Have either of you actually read my OP? If so, read it again.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I am pretty sure most of the population of the world has managed to avoid GW space marines on the internet. So I think it is quite easy to avoid them there. Same with most forums. That post is coming on rather extreme like space marines haunt your dreams and you are uncontrollably compelled to read more about space marines despite your protests. However, I hope I get what you are saying is, "Avoiding the SM threads on the 40k portion of the internet?"
You could read what I have written? What I am saying is all there - it is impossible to participate in the 40k hobby without getting bombarded by SM from every possible direction, whether in GW stores, on their website, on forums, in magazines, in the literature etc etc etc
Well yeah, they make up most of the player base and have for some time. You might have noticed they tend to be on the covers BRB and other general stuff over the last 20-30 years. It is kinda what 40k is known for. That would be living in Manchester and being a fan of football yet tired of see United stuff on the local sports forums. But you know what? You don't have to open any of those threads/pages that are specifically about space marines. It won't avoid them completely but that should cut down you exposure of space marines considerably.
Your football analogy is apt because it can be used to help perfectly describe what is happening here (the problem is you've used it completely wrong). What it's actually like is as if you were supporting a particular team, looking forward to match of the day every week, then getting 55 minutes detailed analysis of the Utd match and all of the other matches are crammed into the final 5 minutes as an afterthought. This is what it is to be a 40k fan that doesn't play Marines.
"There is quite literally no way to participate in this hobby without getting Marine after Marine after Marine news/article/whatever thrown in your face."
Once again do you mean the 40k HHHobby? Because that quote again reads very extremist/obsessive to me. I was in miniatures war gaming long before playing 40k, and I mostly certainly never encountered marine after marine article unless you are talking about USMC in the Pacific Campaign. Even with 40k, one could easily participate in this hobby avoid that by simply not reading them. Which is what I am getting at. You don't want to read about space marines? Then don't, period. Only you control want you read. Again, have the self control to not click on those threads, articles, links, etc. specifically about space marines. You don't need to read much more than the BRB, your codex, the FAQ and maybe the CA to play this game, and even that stuff can be greatly reduced if you have an easy going group. You can completely get by in the hobby just painting anything not space marine and never have to worry about that sort of thing again. If you want more on non-space marine stuff start some of it yourself. That is about the most control you can have.
Y'know what? You could also control yourself. If you don't like what I'm saying in this thread that I have made on a public forum feel free not to click on it. Feel free not to respond. Feel free not to attempt to tell me how I should feel about something that irritates me (and others, apparently). I do believe it is impossible to participate in this hobby in any meaningful way without getting flooded with SM information. That in and of itself isn't a bad thing (although it is tiring). The thing that annoys me is that one minute GW is claiming "OMG guyz just wait for this EPIC GLOBAL CAMPAIGN that will feature releases and stuff for EVERY FACTIONNN, you will LOVE ITTT!!!" and then releases a ton of stuff for Marines, spends more time hyping them up and has clearly put infinitely more effort into their release. So that campaign for everyone is actually a load of horse gak and unless I play Marines I have very little to be excited about. For context, this is after a boxed set that contained an entire set's worth of new models for Marines, new models for Marines released in a previous "campaign" where they were the clear focus, a load of new models at the start of 8th for them and of course a history of getting the lion's share of resource every previous edition, ironically when GW are literally claiming that things are different this edition. I am also sick of GW's bull gak.
There being too much space marine stuff seems like more of personal perception thing.
Really? It must just be me then. I'm sure no one will agree with this OP.
I am not going to look at your post history as I told you my general impression of you has been that your are grumpy about the state of Orks mostly concerning units that aren't competitive, not that Orks themselves aren't competitive at all. And you seem to really have it in for Space Marines. I am sure you can point to posts here and there that contradict that. I just wanted to give you my impression of you based on what I have read here on Dakka cat this point. I don't know if others share that opinion.
Well I can tell you that your general impression is wrong. I have nothing against Space Marines particularly. I have an issue with any faction that is so much better than anything else that it becomes un-fun to play or a requirement of playing competitively. I also have an issue with GW not "spreading the love" in terms of releases for literally anything else.
Oh, I don't mind you ranting about this topic at all. I just think this is a lot less about playing 40k than it is reading about 40k. Your OP was all about no longer wanting to play 40k because their is too much being written about space marines. Which I kindly, I thought, suggested maybe cutting back on reading threads, articles, whatever concerning space marines as a way to relieve this issue. Then you responded saying it was literally impossible. Which I disagree with. Visiting any 40k site is completely optional to enjoying Warhammer 40k as a hobby. You sound more and more like someone angry at the stuff on social media and when the suggestion of maybe cutting back on using it, you become hostile about it. That is all I suggesting. Maybe cut back on the sites you visit and in particular avoid clicking on the stuff you know is going to be about space marines. Maybe try to play the non-marine opponents in your area. I think that is a far more workable solution to the: Hey guys I think all the threads, articles, etc. about space marines is negatively affecting the hobby because we are all tired of talking about space marines and we should stop.
besides, most of the threads relate to new releases, we've known about these releases for awhile now. Why click on a thread titled "Imperial Fists" or "Imperial Fists supplement rumors"or "will I feel bad using blue iron hands?" if you don't wanna hear about space Marines? These are all threads An Actual Englishman has posted on. I'm not saying he's not welcome to post (sometimes it's good to have a non marine players prespective in marine threads) but if he's sick of marine discussion he can just ignore threads relating to it. I mean, nothing is stopping you from starting your own threads to discuss what you're intrested in.
You're acting like marine players don't post in threads that aren't abot maeine, and if anything any thread in General Discussion has a 70% percent chance of Martel, Xenomancer, Karol, or any other of the usual suspects running in screaming about space marines are the worst ever or you should be happy you get anything at all
As sad as it sounds Seandrake was right when he says marines sales subsidize many other armies.
Basically, marines is why we have Games Workshop now. Theres a fething ton of space marine-only whales out there.
Whenever GW does a risky move like do Harlequins, Genestealer Cults, Sisters of Battle, they know they can do it because they can release a bunch of SM boxes after and probably triple the benefits they gained with that new army. But those armies help GW gain another kind of customers with different tastes, so even if those armies arne't as economically sucesfull as marines (No one is), they can still add value to the branding , by adding diversity of both fluff, players, play stiles and aesthetics.
Galas wrote: As sad as it sounds Seandrake was right when he says marines sales subsidize many other armies.
Basically, marines is why we have Games Workshop now. Theres a fething ton of space marine-only whales out there.
Whenever GW does a risky move like do Harlequins, Genestealer Cults, Sisters of Battle, they know they can do it because they can release a bunch of SM boxes after and probably triple the benefits they gained with that new army. But those armies help GW gain another kind of customers with different tastes, so even if those armies arne't as economically sucesfull as marines (No one is), they can still add value to the branding , by adding diversity of both fluff, players, play stiles and aesthetics.
People said this exact thing about plastic SoB releases not too long ago IIRC.
There is a difference between wanting less and wanting none.
“Make is a new version of this faction” =/= “Stop making your cash cow poster child faction so much”
The two do not equate. The latter would get laughed at by GW. I get that you’re bored of Marines but eh, people like Space Marines and they sell. Whatcha gonna do?
Xenomancers wrote: Marines are my favorite army and I have fatigue at this point. This all should have been 1 big release....to drag this out doesn't even make business sense...fanatical players will just buy everything they want. Just release everything at once...
Too much special snowflakes. Marines are Marines to me.
It does make buisness sense though because it stabilizes earnings which looks nice to investors.
Blame stockmarkets i guess
I suppose making the same amount of money over a long period does look better than making a ton at once for investors but I think it actually costs them money. I know I have spent less as a result because I am bored with the dang releases. It's not like Ultramarine players are looking to buy crimson fist heros for example...
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: I am pretty sure most of the population of the world has managed to avoid GW space marines on the internet. So I think it is quite easy to avoid them there. Same with most forums. That post is coming on rather extreme like space marines haunt your dreams and you are uncontrollably compelled to read more about space marines despite your protests. However, I hope I get what you are saying is, "Avoiding the SM threads on the 40k portion of the internet?"
You could read what I have written? What I am saying is all there - it is impossible to participate in the 40k hobby without getting bombarded by SM from every possible direction, whether in GW stores, on their website, on forums, in magazines, in the literature etc etc etc
Well yeah, they make up most of the player base and have for some time. You might have noticed they tend to be on the covers BRB and other general stuff over the last 20-30 years. It is kinda what 40k is known for. That would be living in Manchester and being a fan of football yet tired of see United stuff on the local sports forums. But you know what? You don't have to open any of those threads/pages that are specifically about space marines. It won't avoid them completely but that should cut down you exposure of space marines considerably.
Your football analogy is apt because it can be used to help perfectly describe what is happening here (the problem is you've used it completely wrong). What it's actually like is as if you were supporting a particular team, looking forward to match of the day every week, then getting 55 minutes detailed analysis of the Utd match and all of the other matches are crammed into the final 5 minutes as an afterthought. This is what it is to be a 40k fan that doesn't play Marines.
"There is quite literally no way to participate in this hobby without getting Marine after Marine after Marine news/article/whatever thrown in your face."
Once again do you mean the 40k HHHobby? Because that quote again reads very extremist/obsessive to me. I was in miniatures war gaming long before playing 40k, and I mostly certainly never encountered marine after marine article unless you are talking about USMC in the Pacific Campaign. Even with 40k, one could easily participate in this hobby avoid that by simply not reading them. Which is what I am getting at. You don't want to read about space marines? Then don't, period. Only you control want you read. Again, have the self control to not click on those threads, articles, links, etc. specifically about space marines. You don't need to read much more than the BRB, your codex, the FAQ and maybe the CA to play this game, and even that stuff can be greatly reduced if you have an easy going group. You can completely get by in the hobby just painting anything not space marine and never have to worry about that sort of thing again. If you want more on non-space marine stuff start some of it yourself. That is about the most control you can have.
Y'know what? You could also control yourself. If you don't like what I'm saying in this thread that I have made on a public forum feel free not to click on it. Feel free not to respond. Feel free not to attempt to tell me how I should feel about something that irritates me (and others, apparently). I do believe it is impossible to participate in this hobby in any meaningful way without getting flooded with SM information. That in and of itself isn't a bad thing (although it is tiring). The thing that annoys me is that one minute GW is claiming "OMG guyz just wait for this EPIC GLOBAL CAMPAIGN that will feature releases and stuff for EVERY FACTIONNN, you will LOVE ITTT!!!" and then releases a ton of stuff for Marines, spends more time hyping them up and has clearly put infinitely more effort into their release. So that campaign for everyone is actually a load of horse gak and unless I play Marines I have very little to be excited about. For context, this is after a boxed set that contained an entire set's worth of new models for Marines, new models for Marines released in a previous "campaign" where they were the clear focus, a load of new models at the start of 8th for them and of course a history of getting the lion's share of resource every previous edition, ironically when GW are literally claiming that things are different this edition. I am also sick of GW's bull gak.
There being too much space marine stuff seems like more of personal perception thing.
Really? It must just be me then. I'm sure no one will agree with this OP.
I am not going to look at your post history as I told you my general impression of you has been that your are grumpy about the state of Orks mostly concerning units that aren't competitive, not that Orks themselves aren't competitive at all. And you seem to really have it in for Space Marines. I am sure you can point to posts here and there that contradict that. I just wanted to give you my impression of you based on what I have read here on Dakka cat this point. I don't know if others share that opinion.
Well I can tell you that your general impression is wrong. I have nothing against Space Marines particularly. I have an issue with any faction that is so much better than anything else that it becomes un-fun to play or a requirement of playing competitively. I also have an issue with GW not "spreading the love" in terms of releases for literally anything else.
Oh, I don't mind you ranting about this topic at all. I just think this is a lot less about playing 40k than it is reading about 40k. Your OP was all about no longer wanting to play 40k because their is too much being written about space marines. Which I kindly, I thought, suggested maybe cutting back on reading threads, articles, whatever concerning space marines as a way to relieve this issue. Then you responded saying it was literally impossible. Which I disagree with. Visiting any 40k site is completely optional to enjoying Warhammer 40k as a hobby. You sound more and more like someone angry at the stuff on social media and when the suggestion of maybe cutting back on using it, you become hostile about it. That is all I suggesting. Maybe cut back on the sites you visit and in particular avoid clicking on the stuff you know is going to be about space marines. Maybe try to play the non-marine opponents in your area. I think that is a far more workable solution to the: Hey guys I think all the threads, articles, etc. about space marines is negatively affecting the hobby because we are all tired of talking about space marines and we should stop.
besides, most of the threads relate to new releases, we've known about these releases for awhile now. Why click on a thread titled "Imperial Fists" or "Imperial Fists supplement rumors"or "will I feel bad using blue iron hands?" if you don't wanna hear about space Marines? These are all threads An Actual Englishman has posted on. I'm not saying he's not welcome to post (sometimes it's good to have a non marine players prespective in marine threads) but if he's sick of marine discussion he can just ignore threads relating to it. I mean, nothing is stopping you from starting your own threads to discuss what you're intrested in.
You're acting like marine players don't post in threads that aren't abot maeine, and if anything any thread in General Discussion has a 70% percent chance of Martel, Xenomancer, Karol, or any other of the usual suspects running in screaming about space marines are the worst ever or you should be happy you get anything at all
Or like right now you can see me saying they are the most busted thing in the game.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why are you both ignoring the fact that my complaint has nothing to do with posters on forums discussing Marines and everything to do with GW's obsession with them? Why are you both attempting to strawman so desperately here?
Have either of you actually read my OP? If so, read it again.
Because I recognize the futility of attempting to curtail GW's 'obsession' of with creating more content about and/or for space marines. Games Workshop is gonna do what Games Workshop is gonna do. What we say here and/or do on Dakka Dakka ain't gonna change that. As I said, if you are fatigued, try to not visit the Games Workshop website or at very lest the stuff about space marines.
Because I recognize the futility of attempting to curtail GW's 'obsession' of with creating more content about and/or for space marines. Games Workshop is gonna do what Games Workshop is gonna do. What we say here and/or do on Dakka Dakka ain't gonna change that.
I'm sorry sir you can't be making reasonable statements grounded in the realm of reality like this on Dakkadakka.
Galas wrote: As sad as it sounds Seandrake was right when he says marines sales subsidize many other armies.
This seems like something of a positive feedback-loop though.
"Marines sell better!" ---> Marines get more models, rules and publicity while other armies are left to rot ---> Marines gain sails, other armies lose them ---> "Marines sell better!" ---> Marines get more models, rules and publicity while other armies are left to rot...
etc.
Basically, if Marines are the only army GW cares about and bothers giving new releases and publicity to, then of course they're going to sell better. Similarly, when other armies are just left to rot for years or even decades at a time, of course they're going to sell badly. Older players will either run out of stuff to buy or else simply get fed up of the lack of updates and abandon that army (or the game) altogether. And any newer player who askes for advice will quickly be told 'don't by these armies because GW doesn't give a s**t about them and can't be arsed updating them.'
I mean, take Phoenix Rising. It was one of the few releases in the last year that had basically nothing to do with Marines and was instead Eldar-focused. However, in spite of being advertised about 5 weeks in advance, every reveal for it was buried beneath a mountain of Marine news which inevitably overshadowed it completely.
You're acting like marine players don't post in threads that aren't abot maeine, and if anything any thread in General Discussion has a 70% percent chance of Martel, Xenomancer, Karol, or any other of the usual suspects running in screaming about space marines are the worst ever or you should be happy you get anything at all
well it is kind of a hard to match GK in 8th ed. Inari are probably on a similar tier, but they were great for like 2 years, so even that is hard to compare.
I mean, take Phoenix Rising. It was one of the few releases in the last year that had basically nothing to do with Marines and was instead Eldar-focused. However, in spite of being advertised about 5 weeks in advance, every reveal for it was buried beneath a mountain of Marine news which inevitably overshadowed it completely.
If it had good rules, and the box set wasn't so bad, we may have had 50 page threads about the new eldar. It is kind of a hard to comment on new eldar when old eldar have better rules. And the new starter box with vat here, costs as much as half of a good PC.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why are you both ignoring the fact that my complaint has nothing to do with posters on forums discussing Marines and everything to do with GW's obsession with them? Why are you both attempting to strawman so desperately here?
Have either of you actually read my OP? If so, read it again.
Because I recognize the futility of attempting to curtail GW's 'obsession' of with creating more content about and/or for space marines. Games Workshop is gonna do what Games Workshop is gonna do. What we say here and/or do on Dakka Dakka ain't gonna change that. As I said, if you are fatigued, try to not visit the Games Workshop website or at very lest the stuff about space marines.
I don't think it's futile at all and I don't believe it's why you are strawmanning so hard either.
The SoB release that is coming up is entirely based on customer feedback. GW have said so themselves.
This thread is in some ways my feedback. If enough other people provide such feedback GW will react.
Now what possible reason could you have for strawmanning *looks at profile pic suspiciously*.
Only if the rules are bad, few people may buy the xeno, and if the rules are really bad, that if someone wants to start lets say necron, they can get the army from 2ed market, for a lot cheaper then store price.
I mean, take Phoenix Rising. It was one of the few releases in the last year that had basically nothing to do with Marines and was instead Eldar-focused. However, in spite of being advertised about 5 weeks in advance, every reveal for it was buried beneath a mountain of Marine news which inevitably overshadowed it completely.
I'd disagree with this. A lot of the "buried beneath a mountain of Marine news" is the result of the signal to noise ratio. There was a lot of "discussion", with a big chunk of it being complaints that it was doing exactly what you're talking about.
Never mind that there was a weekly preview for the Phoenix Rising, which could be relied upon. If it hadn't been for leaks, there wouldn't have been some foreknowledge of some of the Marine stuff as it was coming out and when.
That said, the Marine release was poorly handled. The Infiltrators/Incursors, Impulsor, Eliminators, and Reiver Lt. shouldn't have been tied to the releases of the supplements. They should have been done at the start alongside of the Invictor Warsuit and the two Phobos models from Shadowspear that got their releases.
The supplement releases might not have been as big of a deal if they were just a book, cards, and character.
^ This thread alone started to make me realize there is a bit of marine entitlement / fascism running around dakka. I didn't post I just accepted it, it was fairly moderated to keep the thread to its name. People have a right to an opinion and to say it but apparently xenos aren't allowed to have one, and if you do they are allowed to walk into it and denounce it. I have actually started frequenting other forums like The Dark City and r/eldar. Even on those forums you still get IoM trolls, apologists & reactionaries like in this thread. But it is what it is.
OT: Yes there are severe signs of fatigue completely agree. I think they should of just rebooted the original dex. It was hard to deal with new models with new abilities and balance them with rules I get it. Marine's needed attention but they did not need supplementals. No OP you aren't alone just most people don't want the flack or to trivial argue with Mon-keigh that are so entitled to oppress opinions cause they believe you aren't entitled to have one in the first place... cause your race doesn't make the most sales remember /s. They say don't click on marine stuff if you don't want to read about it, but then again why are they here when they know it's going to be negative?
Ishagu wrote: If people buy more Xenos, they'll get more Xenos.
That's the truth
If GW advertised more for xenos, people would buy more xenos. That's the truth too.
GW sells mostly Space Marines because that's about 50% of their entire model line, especially if you count their new models. GW sells mostly Space Marines because they want to sell mostly Space Marines and that's the sad part about it.
By providing lackluster or extremely delayed updates to other factions, GW prevents the creation and growth of the 40K community and instead only grows one of its arm, the one devoted to Space Marines, until that arm is basically the entire community, killing their game in the process.
That's why I think that the proposal of some to the people who got "Marine fatigue" to ignore those thread, while technically correct, is rather toxic and careless. It basically hush non-Marine fans or burnt-out fans off the general community of 40K by not providing a sense of inclusion, shared interest and participation. It's basically someone that if htey aren't happy to go somewhere else without even stopping to consider if the critique was legitimate or reasonnable and thus that something needed to be changed. It's assuming the critique is unreasonnable or illegitimate rejecting those concerns and, ultimately, those persons. That's basically how communities disolve themselves and 40K is a community centric game. You need a large player base and a community for this game to exist because of the cost to maintain it.
Galas wrote: As sad as it sounds Seandrake was right when he says marines sales subsidize many other armies.
This seems like something of a positive feedback-loop though.
"Marines sell better!" ---> Marines get more models, rules and publicity while other armies are left to rot ---> Marines gain sails, other armies lose them ---> "Marines sell better!" ---> Marines get more models, rules and publicity while other armies are left to rot...
etc.
Basically, if Marines are the only army GW cares about and bothers giving new releases and publicity to, then of course they're going to sell better. Similarly, when other armies are just left to rot for years or even decades at a time, of course they're going to sell badly. Older players will either run out of stuff to buy or else simply get fed up of the lack of updates and abandon that army (or the game) altogether. And any newer player who askes for advice will quickly be told 'don't by these armies because GW doesn't give a s**t about them and can't be arsed updating them.'
I mean, take Phoenix Rising. It was one of the few releases in the last year that had basically nothing to do with Marines and was instead Eldar-focused. However, in spite of being advertised about 5 weeks in advance, every reveal for it was buried beneath a mountain of Marine news which inevitably overshadowed it completely.
You would be surprised how many corporations try to make something popular but it totally fails.
Space Marines are loved by the public, thats a fact. GW supporting them helps but it has nothing to do with their populary that has been massive since day 1, when space marines weren't really more supported than other factions.
GW created space marines following the tought guy in plate armour that was so popular with Chaos Warrior in Fantasy, and this was said by GW themselves. So they were based in a proven concept that was the most popular thing in fantasy, thats why since day 1 they have been the most popular thing in 40k.
Thing as well is that "Xenos" is a very loose collection of factions that have little in common other than not being humans or chaos. Necron releases do nothing for Tau, Eldar stuff doesn't benefit the Nids, etc. Even then those who play pure Dark Eldar, pure Chaos daemons, even pure (insert IoM faction here) don't really benefit from marine content spam. End of the day GW makes all these product lines, keeps adding new product lines, and yet they cannot support all of them properly because they flood their release calander with marine gak (even the real Marines are getting hosed by numarines).
^ This thread alone started to make me realize there is a bit of marine entitlement / fascism running around dakka. I didn't post I just accepted it, it was fairly moderated to keep the thread to its name. People have a right to an opinion and to say it but apparently xenos aren't allowed to have one, and if you do they are allowed to walk into it and denounce it. I have actually started frequenting other forums like The Dark City and r/eldar. Even on those forums you still get IoM trolls, apologists & reactionaries like in this thread. But it is what it is.
OT: Yes there are severe signs of fatigue completely agree. I think they should of just rebooted the original dex. It was hard to deal with new models with new abilities and balance them with rules I get it. Marine's needed attention but they did not need supplementals. No OP you aren't alone just most people don't want the flack or to trivial argue with Mon-keigh that are so entitled to oppress opinions cause they believe you aren't entitled to have one in the first place... cause your race doesn't make the most sales remember /s. They say don't click on marine stuff if you don't want to read about it, but then again why are they here when they know it's going to be negative?
dude all that thread does is ask to have a conversation about Primaris Marines without getting flooded with "I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT PRIMARIS MARINES BECAUSE I HATE THEM AND REFUSE TO LEARN ANYTHING ABOUT THEM" posts. It was started after we'd had 5 or 6 "I hate Primaris" posts started that got kinda tiresome. And ya know what? this is something marine players over all seem to have to deal with. No one else has their army subjected to threads about how much they hate it. when's the last time you saw a post that amounted to "I HATE ORKS AND YOU SUCK FOR LIKING THEM?"
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why are you both ignoring the fact that my complaint has nothing to do with posters on forums discussing Marines and everything to do with GW's obsession with them? Why are you both attempting to strawman so desperately here?
Have either of you actually read my OP? If so, read it again.
Because I recognize the futility of attempting to curtail GW's 'obsession' of with creating more content about and/or for space marines. Games Workshop is gonna do what Games Workshop is gonna do. What we say here and/or do on Dakka Dakka ain't gonna change that. As I said, if you are fatigued, try to not visit the Games Workshop website or at very lest the stuff about space marines.
I don't think it's futile at all and I don't believe it's why you are strawmanning so hard either.
The SoB release that is coming up is entirely based on customer feedback. GW have said so themselves.
This thread is in some ways my feedback. If enough other people provide such feedback GW will react.
Now what possible reason could you have for strawmanning *looks at profile pic suspiciously*.
Well, I was going to wait until I was a little farther along with my GSC army, but I guess I can change it now. I play a bunch of factions and I am not as dyed in the wool concerning one faction over another as you might think. I have also nearly played more games as Orks than I have all variety of space marines this year. Neat little sidenote: did you know that Dakka Dakka doesn't have a Ranking system for Genestealer Cults?
As for the Sisters of Battle, that was how many years of complaining about them needing new models? There was a meme video for a reason on that. And that was a specific faction that was being asked of GW. This thread is just GW should do less for space marines. That rather nebulous and again reeks of crab mentality. What feedback do you want from me (or anyone in this thread for that matter) to pass on GW. Last survey I commented that I would like everything in finecast to eventually get made in plastic and complained that prices were too high for new players. I suppose the new Eldar stuff is some forward progress on the first, but since the survey even the old kits went up in price. 1 step forward, 2 steps back I guess.
If you really want to get collective feedback I would suggest being a little more specific and/or try to not have negative requests (read: no more of X factions). As mentioned, if you really want to get something more than marines, you are probably going to have to convince GW consumers to spend more on non-space marine products. Heck, as indicated with the profile pic change, I am already doing that with a GSC army. So you are kinda firing into your own ranks by being so aggressive toward me.
You also should hope that the Sisters of Battle release goes very well as they are probably going to be used a barometer to GW to see if it is indeed worthwhile to update old model lines. I am neutral toward the models myself, but I do hope they reveal insight to customer base and maybe have GW take additional risks in updating other model lines in the future. Because most definitely concerning GW, money talks and just talk walks.
I too am over it. From Knights being talked about more than Orks in Orktober (lmao), to Psychic Awakening being announced as "thE nExT BiGgEsT tHiNg" and no news other than marine releases.
The fact of the matter is Xenos is basically unsupported and because GW have rebranded each different flavour of candy as a completely different candy product we no have to sit through this continous droll of them supporting each individual one more than the whole xenos archetype.
But alas, it's a self perpetuating cycle:
- Ork products released in november didnt sell well so lets not release orks anymore
- That one new cryptek model that absolutely no one asked for didn't sell well so lets not do any new necron releases
- We keep releasing new mehreen stuff and all the competitive players are buying it all up!
Actually, I was thinking of this as I was typing it out. It wouldn't sting so damn much if there was a *modicum* of communication.
Just... Something?
BrianDavion wrote: when's the last time you saw a post that amounted to "I HATE ORKS AND YOU SUCK FOR LIKING THEM?"
Quite a lot actually.
Anyone remember that thread talking about the fair pricing of big shootas? Or the thread where lolmaniac said he can't play this his toys anymore and was basically told to put up and shut up?
Galas wrote: As sad as it sounds Seandrake was right when he says marines sales subsidize many other armies.
This seems like something of a positive feedback-loop though.
"Marines sell better!" ---> Marines get more models, rules and publicity while other armies are left to rot ---> Marines gain sails, other armies lose them ---> "Marines sell better!" ---> Marines get more models, rules and publicity while other armies are left to rot...
etc.
Basically, if Marines are the only army GW cares about and bothers giving new releases and publicity to, then of course they're going to sell better. Similarly, when other armies are just left to rot for years or even decades at a time, of course they're going to sell badly. Older players will either run out of stuff to buy or else simply get fed up of the lack of updates and abandon that army (or the game) altogether. And any newer player who askes for advice will quickly be told 'don't by these armies because GW doesn't give a s**t about them and can't be arsed updating them.'
I mean, take Phoenix Rising. It was one of the few releases in the last year that had basically nothing to do with Marines and was instead Eldar-focused. However, in spite of being advertised about 5 weeks in advance, every reveal for it was buried beneath a mountain of Marine news which inevitably overshadowed it completely.
You would be surprised how many corporations try to make something popular but it totally fails.
Space Marines are loved by the public, thats a fact.
It is true that Space Marines are very popular.
But the product is also the hype, in the case of 40K. Good stories/artwork/background about a faction can inspire people to collect a faction. No stories/artwork/imagery about a faction, or stories where said faction is merely a punching bag for Space Marines, does not do a very good job of selling a faction. Of the Black Library novels out there, what is the percentage devoted to marines? The Horus Heresey novels definitely sold armies.
Game-wise, it's also an issue. This is part of my huge dislike of the Primaris Statline. It diminishes the standing of other factions when compared to marines. I loved it when the basic Necron Warrior was 18 points to the Marine 15, because the basic Necron Warrior was actually better than the Marine. It makes the faction feel like a bigger threat or wield more gravitas. The Monolith was the biggest standard 40K model when it came out, and is still larger than many superheavies. But the Monolith is a shoddy unit by many accounts, and Necron Warriors have dropped in value, etc. I'd be more interested in (re)collecting Necrons if I felt like GW was giving them their due. Unfortunately not much exciting is happening for them, and GW has since diminished much of what brought me to them in the first place. Warriors and Immortals are lessened, Monoliths aren't as useful and aren't seen in many armies, the C'tan are re-written, no Pariahs, etc.
BrianDavion wrote: when's the last time you saw a post that amounted to "I HATE ORKS AND YOU SUCK FOR LIKING THEM?"
Quite a lot actually.
Anyone remember that thread talking about the fair pricing of big shootas? Or the thread where lolmaniac said he can't play this his toys anymore and was basically told to put up and shut up?
I definitely recall seeing threads reading something like "Orks do not belong in 40K".
Primaris should not have happened. A RealMarine re-sculpt is what should have happened instead. People would have bought that up just fine.
Ishagu wrote: Marines sell well. GW just had an Eldar release, peopled weren't excited and did a lot of complaining.
I mean, I can't speak for every eldar player, but I'm not excited because I can't yet buy any of the new stuff.
it's only in a ridiculously expensive box set full of crappy units I already own.
I'd buy the new Drazar, or maybe the new Incubi, possibly even the new banshees as well once my paint backlog clears up a little more. But as of right now, I can't. So, hype level pretty much 0.
I think he means you should just be grateful they even bothered to show the naughty and less naughty space elves some love. You should have all, me included, bought it up, and thanked them for their love and grace in giving us such an awful box with some new models. It was all bundled so we didn't need to make the tough choices of buying what we wanted, or making multiple choices. It was for our own good and we should have embraced it, they knew what we need. The box was our Brawndo, and it's got what Eldar players crave. Hope that helps clear it up.
Okay. Haven't read the whole thread, but tried to read most. Negativity gets to me.
I've been waiting since 95 for GSC and since 2003 for sisters. I've already got one [and I LOVE it!]. The other drops in November. And that is freakin fantastic. Not sure I could be happier.
I've wanted to play both Eldar and Dark Eldar forever, but never bought anything; I've always hated resin, but Banshees and Incubi were actually two of my favourite units. And as for those falcons and vypers everyone has already? I don't. And I want them. And now I'm going to get them.
You can't say Xenos aren't supported after the PA drops. You can complain about the cost of the box, or even its contents. But four new units, a box set and a campaign book is NOT unsupported.
Did they talk about marines in Orktober? Sure. But you know what didn't happen? They didn't get a marines vs marines stand alone game with loads of new vehicle kits. but I seem to recall that happening for Orks, so again, NOT unsupported.
I too was POed about losses to Dark Eldar, but as much as I love Baron Sathonyx, Lady Malys, Duke Sliscus and Keradruahk, none of them ever had models, so it's not actually as much of a loss as it is made out to be. Yes, it probably means they are less likely to be realized, but I still have hope. The revival of the GSC after 22 years really does mean this edition is different and anything really is possible.
Heck, you've got a choice now between 3 different Rogue Traders for cryin out loud!
I also don't think it's at all fair to talk about the success or failure of PA after one book out of what will probably end up being a ten book set.
You know, I've lived through editions that felt far more marine dominant than this one. And under previous editions, there was always this threat of the dreaded reset button that would mean living through all those marine releases AGAIN, which was utterly terrifying. It's why I get filled with dread every time I see a thread wishing for a 9th ed. Because THAT is what leads to the marine spam more than anything else. I think GW has learned that the only way we're ever gonna get to Tau auxilia is if an edition lasts for a decade or so, and really? Hopefully the rest of my lifetime.
I bought enough product from this edition, and intend to continue doing so for as long as I am able, that I can single handedly supply my entire small group of friends with enough rules and models to keep us playing for as long as we have the will.
As for the GK/DW should not be their own armies arguments, I have to struggle to control my rage every time I see it. I want these armies, and I could care less that they don't win tournaments. They tell stories I want told, and I'm ecstatic that they exist- ESPECIALLY DW because back in the Witch Hunters/ Daemon Hunter days, they never got around to Xenos Hunters because of a stupid freakin edition reset. So technically that's a third army that I've been waiting for since the early 2000's that this addition has given me at last!
So forgive me if I say how dare you suggest they take away things I've wanted for decades now that I finally have them.
And we will get an Imperial Agents dex- the Apocalypse rules got a set of Imperial Agents cards as a free PDF. So far, they've laid the groundwork for Rogue Traders,Assassins and SoS; Inquistion is in next month's WD to finish off the set. I figure January might be the next PA drop, and it may be Imperial Agents. It will also coincide with the second wave of Sisters releases whenever it happens.
Ishagu wrote: Marines sell well. GW just had an Eldar release, peopled weren't excited and did a lot of complaining.
I mean, I can't speak for every eldar player, but I'm not excited because I can't yet buy any of the new stuff.
it's only in a ridiculously expensive box set full of crappy units I already own.
I'd buy the new Drazar, or maybe the new Incubi, possibly even the new banshees as well once my paint backlog clears up a little more. But as of right now, I can't. So, hype level pretty much 0.
I think he means you should just be grateful they even bothered to show the naughty and less naughty space elves some love. You should have all, me included, bought it up, and thanked them for their love and grace in giving us such an awful box with some new models. It was all bundled so we didn't need to make the tough choices of buying what we wanted, or making multiple choices. It was for our own good and we should have embraced it, they knew what we need. The box was our Brawndo, and it's got what Eldar players crave. Hope that helps clear it up.
you make it sound like Eldar are the only army in 40k whose even been given their unit in a box first, Shadowspear came out nine months ago.. and Infiltrators are only just coming up for pre-order
The problem is GW support their product lines differently but treat them the same.
40k is a choose your own faction system, so the games don't distinguish between the armies.
GW is a promote marines and sell them as much as possible company.
These two perspectives are at odds with one another.
No where does GW distinguish their product lines from one another to the consumer, everything is sold as if they are all equivalent.
If I were selling 3 similar cars at similar prices buy only one had after sales service, parts etc, which one looks more attractive?
If GW wanted to align their business strategy with their product strategy they have a few options:
They can refocus the business strategy to align it with their product and market/invest in all their lines equally
They can rebrand their product line to match their current business strategy - basically treat 40k like space Hulk where the game is sold as "you are marines - take turns to see how much better you are at killing the baddies than your mates!"
And thus sell marines as your actual army and all the non marines as mook forces you get to vs your friends so they can use their marines.
In this scenario all non loyalist marines become cheaper, worse and simpler because they are the npcs you take turns killing.
GWs current business strategy is aligned to the latter but their product is still sold and marketed like the former.
Ishagu wrote: Marines sell well. GW just had an Eldar release, peopled weren't excited and did a lot of complaining.
I mean, I can't speak for every eldar player, but I'm not excited because I can't yet buy any of the new stuff.
it's only in a ridiculously expensive box set full of crappy units I already own.
I'd buy the new Drazar, or maybe the new Incubi, possibly even the new banshees as well once my paint backlog clears up a little more. But as of right now, I can't. So, hype level pretty much 0.
I think he means you should just be grateful they even bothered to show the naughty and less naughty space elves some love. You should have all, me included, bought it up, and thanked them for their love and grace in giving us such an awful box with some new models. It was all bundled so we didn't need to make the tough choices of buying what we wanted, or making multiple choices. It was for our own good and we should have embraced it, they knew what we need. The box was our Brawndo, and it's got what Eldar players crave. Hope that helps clear it up.
you make it sound like Eldar are the only army in 40k whose even been given their unit in a box first, Shadowspear came out nine months ago.. and Infiltrators are only just coming up for pre-order
The problem here is that you're basically complaining that your 3rd car has some rust on it while everyone else just wants a first car...
You keep on and on with that. Listen, let me build you a bridge so you can get over that. It was a crap box, that is what people are mad about. Had it been a great priced box, with sweet options, people would have said it was great.
It wasn't, as well these are models left to stagnate so long the originals may be able to drink on their own, or watch an R rated move without an adult. To place them in such an awful expensive box with crap selection is what people, me included, dislike.
Just because they do it with other factions doesn't make it better. Sometimes existing patterns can be kinda crap yes ? Just saying its a pattern doesn't mean its good or even mean you can't dislike it.
I would say you'd be hard pressed to find a post one from me disliking the shadowspear box, as you like to strut that one out there over and over and over. I bought it, but that is because it felt like a savings, the models for the most part had a point and it felt agreeable even if it was the first showing of some units. This eldar box, was not that. It was/is an over expensive grab bag of back stock with the only sell point being some redone models.
Hell even if they had made the whole kit nothing but new models I bet you people would have liked it more even with the price tag for that reason alone. The eldar box was not this, it was poopy poop the poop box.
you make it sound like Eldar are the only army in 40k whose even been given their unit in a box first, Shadowspear came out nine months ago.. and Infiltrators are only just coming up for pre-order
I would actually really like if I finally could buy a venomcrawler or obliterators, heck even some possesed or a MoP....
For some factions, you could get away with a single model.
And you can flesh out every imperial faction with just units (tanks and such) from other places, giving them a new chance for sales and place to shine.
I do not get groups like sisters of silance, that really only need a HQ unit, and access to imperial tanks in there own list to make them viable.
Harlequinsb are in a similar place, access to some eldar tanks is really all they need. It seems like the ally forces stuff has made GW design dumb.
I would like it if you could as well, it's quite dumb they haven't put those models out solo yet.
Heck,I'm still waiting for that kill team Techpriest floating fat guy as I couldn't pick up that kill team and still sitting on some cheap but meh Engineseers and Dumpy but ever bountiful Dominuses everywhere.
you make it sound like Eldar are the only army in 40k whose even been given their unit in a box first, Shadowspear came out nine months ago.. and Infiltrators are only just coming up for pre-order
I would actually really like if I finally could buy a venomcrawler or obliterators, heck even some possesed or a MoP....
rumor has it they'll be the new chaos start collecting box due out in december.
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AngryAngel80 wrote: You keep on and on with that. Listen, let me build you a bridge so you can get over that. It was a crap box, that is what people are mad about. Had it been a great priced box, with sweet options, people would have said it was great.
It wasn't, as well these are models left to stagnate so long the originals may be able to drink on their own, or watch an R rated move without an adult. To place them in such an awful expensive box with crap selection is what people, me included, dislike.
Just because they do it with other factions doesn't make it better. Sometimes existing patterns can be kinda crap yes ? Just saying its a pattern doesn't mean its good or even mean you can't dislike it.
I would say you'd be hard pressed to find a post one from me disliking the shadowspear box, as you like to strut that one out there over and over and over. I bought it, but that is because it felt like a savings, the models for the most part had a point and it felt agreeable even if it was the first showing of some units. This eldar box, was not that. It was/is an over expensive grab bag of back stock with the only sell point being some redone models.
Hell even if they had made the whole kit nothing but new models I bet you people would have liked it more even with the price tag for that reason alone. The eldar box was not this, it was poopy poop the poop box.
Edit: @ Brian Davion
yes and I get it, but the fact is... I use shadowspear as an example because GW with 8th edition's got a pattern. Release box set with new units. wait 3-6 months then release unit in multipart set, often as part of a larger release.
Let's look at EVERY major release for 8th edition.
Primaris Marines: first introduced in Dark Imperium
Death Guard -Ditto
Custodes: we first saw then in burning of prosperio.
Knights: we got armaginers in forge bane.
Orks: Speed Freaks set.
GSCs: Tooth and Claw.
I'm not saying it doesn't suck, but GW's following a pattern we should reckongize
PenitentJake wrote: Okay. Haven't read the whole thread, but tried to read most. Negativity gets to me.
Spoiler:
I've been waiting since 95 for GSC and since 2003 for sisters. I've already got one [and I LOVE it!]. The other drops in November. And that is freakin fantastic. Not sure I could be happier.
I've wanted to play both Eldar and Dark Eldar forever, but never bought anything; I've always hated resin, but Banshees and Incubi were actually two of my favourite units. And as for those falcons and vypers everyone has already? I don't. And I want them. And now I'm going to get them.
You can't say Xenos aren't supported after the PA drops. You can complain about the cost of the box, or even its contents. But four new units, a box set and a campaign book is NOT unsupported.
Did they talk about marines in Orktober? Sure. But you know what didn't happen? They didn't get a marines vs marines stand alone game with loads of new vehicle kits. but I seem to recall that happening for Orks, so again, NOT unsupported.
I too was POed about losses to Dark Eldar, but as much as I love Baron Sathonyx, Lady Malys, Duke Sliscus and Keradruahk, none of them ever had models, so it's not actually as much of a loss as it is made out to be. Yes, it probably means they are less likely to be realized, but I still have hope. The revival of the GSC after 22 years really does mean this edition is different and anything really is possible.
Heck, you've got a choice now between 3 different Rogue Traders for cryin out loud!
I also don't think it's at all fair to talk about the success or failure of PA after one book out of what will probably end up being a ten book set.
You know, I've lived through editions that felt far more marine dominant than this one. And under previous editions, there was always this threat of the dreaded reset button that would mean living through all those marine releases AGAIN, which was utterly terrifying. It's why I get filled with dread every time I see a thread wishing for a 9th ed. Because THAT is what leads to the marine spam more than anything else. I think GW has learned that the only way we're ever gonna get to Tau auxilia is if an edition lasts for a decade or so, and really? Hopefully the rest of my lifetime.
I bought enough product from this edition, and intend to continue doing so for as long as I am able, that I can single handedly supply my entire small group of friends with enough rules and models to keep us playing for as long as we have the will.
As for the GK/DW should not be their own armies arguments, I have to struggle to control my rage every time I see it. I want these armies, and I could care less that they don't win tournaments. They tell stories I want told, and I'm ecstatic that they exist- ESPECIALLY DW because back in the Witch Hunters/ Daemon Hunter days, they never got around to Xenos Hunters because of a stupid freakin edition reset. So technically that's a third army that I've been waiting for since the early 2000's that this addition has given me at last!
So forgive me if I say how dare you suggest they take away things I've wanted for decades now that I finally have them.
And we will get an Imperial Agents dex- the Apocalypse rules got a set of Imperial Agents cards as a free PDF. So far, they've laid the groundwork for Rogue Traders,Assassins and SoS; Inquistion is in next month's WD to finish off the set. I figure January might be the next PA drop, and it may be Imperial Agents. It will also coincide with the second wave of Sisters releases whenever it happens.
You probably should have read the thread, or at least my OP, so you had a vague idea of what my complaint is. I have not said anywhere that anything has been taken away.
You are comparing a apples and oranges when you claim that other factions are supported compared to Marines. Yes, Necrons had that paltry character in that boxed set that one time, oh and a forgeworld super heavy. Orks had 6 new buggies (that can't be used in competitive play because they are so awful) while losing more options in their codex. Craftworld Eldar have received a new character sculpt, a useless terrain piece and now Banshees and a singular special character. Dark Eldar have received Incubi and a singular special character. GSC did well, they got a vehicle unit, a biker unit and 5 or 6 characters IIRC. Tyranids have had 0 new model releases to my knowledge. Tau have had 0 new model releases to my knowledge. Harlies have had 0 new model releases to my knowledge. How many new model releases have Marines had this edition again? I've genuinely lost count.
It's not just the infinite model releases Marines enjoy either. They are the only faction, the only faction to have an actual v2 codex. They are, in addition, the only faction to have codex supplements for their sub-factions.
How is this in any way fair, equal or balanced? It's not even close. What I have been saying is that this disparity is such that it has actually driven me away from the hobby as a whole. I am so sick of the Marine releases and focus by GW that I am losing interest in the hobby generally. I can't be bothered to play, I can't be bothered to paint, I can't even be bothered to build. This has nothing to do with "Marine articles" or "Marine posts on a forum" like some of you incredibly claim. It's to do with the focus of GW and the fact that 95% of it is aimed at Marines. For me, if GW don't change their stance on this I will stop hobbying all together. I'm sure others will follow suit. This will hurt GWs bottom line and, more importantly, the hobby as a whole.
My point was and is, in my response to who I quoted, the box sucks. @Brian Davion
Yes its a pattern we all see but they over priced and under equipped that eldars box set and then over hyped it to heck and back. Of course Eldar players will feel they got a raw deal because it sucks. It's not a good buy, or a good feeling. When even chaos felt better handled, at least until chaos dex 2.0.
I'm not saying they got no attention, but someone saying "Hey be thankful you got anything at all and buy it ! " Isn't really a valid point. If I make the most amazing meal you've ever smelled, and try and serve it in an old sweaty inside of a pair of my gym shoes, I'm sure you'd choose to wait awhile for me offer that meal made again but this time on an actual clean and nicely appointed plate.
Then saying its the other factions fault they won't buy this over expensive box and have themselves to blame for no support off that, is really a bit dumb. That is all I'm saying.
I see the trend, I just think the trend sucks and it sucks hardest currently for Eldar players.
JohnnyHell wrote: Focus on your gaming group, not the fact that GW has a daily news feed.
There’s plenty to engage you if you focus on fun rather than failing about things you can’t change. And don’t actually need to to have fun.
Its like I'm not even allowed to decide what I consider fun in this thread. Incredible.
Does your fun come in power armor ? If not, I recommend you buy a fresh new blood of the phoenix box set, that'll bring your fun back quick, fast and in a hurry. You're welcome my green friend.
JohnnyHell wrote: Focus on your gaming group, not the fact that GW has a daily news feed.
There’s plenty to engage you if you focus on fun rather than failing about things you can’t change. And don’t actually need to to have fun.
Its like I'm not even allowed to decide what I consider fun in this thread. Incredible.
Does your fun come in power armor ? If not, I recommend you buy a fresh new blood of the phoenix box set, that'll bring your fun back quick, fast and in a hurry. You're welcome my green friend.
Considering how, erm, bad the boxset is comparatively to other boxsets.
I doubt it.....
AngryAngel80 wrote: Listen, someone has to get it, he wants fun, I'll give him mine if he supports the box set so I can get more Dark Eldar kits. It's a win win.
I'll even give him some candy, that makes it better.
PenitentJake wrote: Okay. Haven't read the whole thread, but tried to read most. Negativity gets to me.
Spoiler:
I've been waiting since 95 for GSC and since 2003 for sisters. I've already got one [and I LOVE it!]. The other drops in November. And that is freakin fantastic. Not sure I could be happier.
I've wanted to play both Eldar and Dark Eldar forever, but never bought anything; I've always hated resin, but Banshees and Incubi were actually two of my favourite units. And as for those falcons and vypers everyone has already? I don't. And I want them. And now I'm going to get them.
You can't say Xenos aren't supported after the PA drops. You can complain about the cost of the box, or even its contents. But four new units, a box set and a campaign book is NOT unsupported.
Did they talk about marines in Orktober? Sure. But you know what didn't happen? They didn't get a marines vs marines stand alone game with loads of new vehicle kits. but I seem to recall that happening for Orks, so again, NOT unsupported.
I too was POed about losses to Dark Eldar, but as much as I love Baron Sathonyx, Lady Malys, Duke Sliscus and Keradruahk, none of them ever had models, so it's not actually as much of a loss as it is made out to be. Yes, it probably means they are less likely to be realized, but I still have hope. The revival of the GSC after 22 years really does mean this edition is different and anything really is possible.
Heck, you've got a choice now between 3 different Rogue Traders for cryin out loud!
I also don't think it's at all fair to talk about the success or failure of PA after one book out of what will probably end up being a ten book set.
You know, I've lived through editions that felt far more marine dominant than this one. And under previous editions, there was always this threat of the dreaded reset button that would mean living through all those marine releases AGAIN, which was utterly terrifying. It's why I get filled with dread every time I see a thread wishing for a 9th ed. Because THAT is what leads to the marine spam more than anything else. I think GW has learned that the only way we're ever gonna get to Tau auxilia is if an edition lasts for a decade or so, and really? Hopefully the rest of my lifetime.
I bought enough product from this edition, and intend to continue doing so for as long as I am able, that I can single handedly supply my entire small group of friends with enough rules and models to keep us playing for as long as we have the will.
As for the GK/DW should not be their own armies arguments, I have to struggle to control my rage every time I see it. I want these armies, and I could care less that they don't win tournaments. They tell stories I want told, and I'm ecstatic that they exist- ESPECIALLY DW because back in the Witch Hunters/ Daemon Hunter days, they never got around to Xenos Hunters because of a stupid freakin edition reset. So technically that's a third army that I've been waiting for since the early 2000's that this addition has given me at last!
So forgive me if I say how dare you suggest they take away things I've wanted for decades now that I finally have them.
And we will get an Imperial Agents dex- the Apocalypse rules got a set of Imperial Agents cards as a free PDF. So far, they've laid the groundwork for Rogue Traders,Assassins and SoS; Inquistion is in next month's WD to finish off the set. I figure January might be the next PA drop, and it may be Imperial Agents. It will also coincide with the second wave of Sisters releases whenever it happens.
You probably should have read the thread, or at least my OP, so you had a vague idea of what my complaint is. I have not said anywhere that anything has been taken away.
You are comparing a apples and oranges when you claim that other factions are supported compared to Marines. Yes, Necrons had that paltry character in that boxed set that one time, oh and a forgeworld super heavy. Orks had 6 new buggies (that can't be used in competitive play because they are so awful) while losing more options in their codex. Craftworld Eldar have received a new character sculpt, a useless terrain piece and now Banshees and a singular special character. Dark Eldar have received Incubi and a singular special character. GSC did well, they got a vehicle unit, a biker unit and 5 or 6 characters IIRC. Tyranids have had 0 new model releases to my knowledge. Tau have had 0 new model releases to my knowledge. Harlies have had 0 new model releases to my knowledge. How many new model releases have Marines had this edition again? I've genuinely lost count.
I would also add that the new models for Craftworlds and Drukhari are just plastic versions of existing models. Much appreciated versions, but technically nothing new, whereas Space Marines have been getting a glut of new models that represent new units.
GW strategy since the early 90's has been to release a new edition every 4 years or so. This meant that the factions got a new codex, and in order to make it new and fresh, the factions got new models/units. This has been slowly creating model/unit bloat in the factions... also each new edition adds a new faction.
Marines are always at the forefront of this strategy, hence their line is a colossal mess of units. 4 Terminator unit entries, which is bonkers!
Marines have always sold the most, so get the most attention, which means they sell the most, which means they get the most attention... as long as people keep buying Marines they will sell, and be heavily promoted.
Where as a faction like say Dark Eldar are a little harder to promote, their motive/background/imagery is not easy to sell to kids, also their play style can be difficult as they aren't as forgiving to play or paint as Marines are.
TL/DR, Marines sell the most and they are the IP that has made GW what they are. As a result GW will not change their marketing strategy around Marines.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Listen, someone has to get it, he wants fun, I'll give him mine if he supports the box set so I can get more Dark Eldar kits. It's a win win.
I'll even give him some candy, that makes it better.
Opportunists
What can I say ? It's the dark city in me coming out.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Listen, someone has to get it, he wants fun, I'll give him mine if he supports the box set so I can get more Dark Eldar kits. It's a win win.
I'll even give him some candy, that makes it better.
Opportunists
What can I say ? It's the dark city in me coming out.
No blame from me, but the box is really not up to the standard imo.
stonehorse wrote: GW strategy since the early 90's has been to release a new edition every 4 years or so. This meant that the factions got a new codex, and in order to make it new and fresh, the factions got new models/units. This has been slowly creating model/unit bloat in the factions... also each new edition adds a new faction.
Marines are always at the forefront of this strategy, hence their line is a colossal mess of units. 4 Terminator unit entries, which is bonkers!
Marines have always sold the most, so get the most attention, which means they sell the most, which means they get the most attention... as long as people keep buying Marines they will sell, and be heavily promoted.
Where as a faction like say Dark Eldar are a little harder to promote, their motive/background/imagery is not easy to sell to kids, also their play style can be difficult as they aren't as forgiving to play or paint as Marines are.
TL/DR, Marines sell the most and they are the IP that has made GW what they are. As a result GW will not change their marketing strategy around Marines.
I agree with you on certain parts, but I would like to point out that Space Marines sell well because they consistently get box set featured which in turn makes them a very cheap army to collect with ton of sprues and miniatures available on the second hand market. Most other factions are lucky if they are featured in a box set once in the whole cycle. Hell, I have over 10.000 points of Dark Angels and I don't even play them that much. It's just stuff that literally trickles down to me from box sets and friends leaving the hobby.
Now, I would say that I think GW is slowly(very slowly) catching on because they've started releasing more varied box sets. This means that there is more potential for diversification of factions within the hobby as more and more plastic models are being provided more cheaply. So far I think it has been a great run with the exception of the Blood of the Phoenix due to its very high price point. Last year was exceptionally good for collectors with Forgebane, Wake the Dead, Tooth and Claw to name a few, and those provided much needed savings on several factions. The downside is that two of the boxes featured Space Marines so even more cheap Space Marine models flow into the market making them easier to collect.
Personally I am in love with what they've been doing in the AoS venue. The box sets tend to have differing factions which has provided a lot of different players access to cheap starting armies and Stormcast is not pushed as hard in those as Space Marines are.
stonehorse wrote: GW strategy since the early 90's has been to release a new edition every 4 years or so. This meant that the factions got a new codex, and in order to make it new and fresh, the factions got new models/units. This has been slowly creating model/unit bloat in the factions... also each new edition adds a new faction.
Marines are always at the forefront of this strategy, hence their line is a colossal mess of units. 4 Terminator unit entries, which is bonkers!
Marines have always sold the most, so get the most attention, which means they sell the most, which means they get the most attention... as long as people keep buying Marines they will sell, and be heavily promoted.
Where as a faction like say Dark Eldar are a little harder to promote, their motive/background/imagery is not easy to sell to kids, also their play style can be difficult as they aren't as forgiving to play or paint as Marines are.
TL/DR, Marines sell the most and they are the IP that has made GW what they are. As a result GW will not change their marketing strategy around Marines.
I agree with you on certain parts, but I would like to point out that Space Marines sell well because they consistently get box set featured which in turn makes them a very cheap army to collect with ton of sprues and miniatures available on the second hand market. Most other factions are lucky if they are featured in a box set once in the whole cycle. Hell, I have over 10.000 points of Dark Angels and I don't even play them that much. It's just stuff that literally trickles down to me from box sets and friends leaving the hobby.
Now, I would say that I think GW is slowly(very slowly) catching on because they've started releasing more varied box sets. This means that there is more potential for diversification of factions within the hobby as more and more plastic models are being provided more cheaply. So far I think it has been a great run with the exception of the Blood of the Phoenix due to its very high price point. Last year was exceptionally good for collectors with Forgebane, Wake the Dead, Tooth and Claw to name a few, and those provided much needed savings on several factions. The downside is that two of the boxes featured Space Marines so even more cheap Space Marine models flow into the market making them easier to collect.
Personally I am in love with what they've been doing in the AoS venue. The box sets tend to have differing factions which has provided a lot of different players access to cheap starting armies and Stormcast is not pushed as hard in those as Space Marines are.
Adding Marines to the vast majority of the starter sets, means that over the editions people end up with a sizeable force of Marines. By adding them into the starter sets, GW are showing Marines a disproportionate amount of attention and promotion. As you say it creates a trickle down effect, where the second hand market is saturated in Marines, and most 40k players will have or had a Marine force.
This isn't to say that Marines are the problem, as they aren't. It is GW's marketing strategy that is at fault here. In the old WFB, the starter sets had a good mixture of the then available factions, I think only High Elves appeared in more than one. This resulted in a good representation of the factions. There was little to any favouritism shown by GW, so players gravitated towards a faction they liked the look of.
I do wonder if the reason for Marines being so heavily promoted is to do with how easily it is to recoup the cost of the moulds. Promote them enough, they sell well, the moulds then pay for themselves, and as they still sell well, it is then more profitable to sell.
^ This thread alone started to make me realize there is a bit of marine entitlement / fascism running around dakka. I didn't post I just accepted it, it was fairly moderated to keep the thread to its name. People have a right to an opinion and to say it but apparently xenos aren't allowed to have one, and if you do they are allowed to walk into it and denounce it. I have actually started frequenting other forums like The Dark City and r/eldar. Even on those forums you still get IoM trolls, apologists & reactionaries like in this thread. But it is what it is.
OT: Yes there are severe signs of fatigue completely agree. I think they should of just rebooted the original dex. It was hard to deal with new models with new abilities and balance them with rules I get it. Marine's needed attention but they did not need supplementals. No OP you aren't alone just most people don't want the flack or to trivial argue with Mon-keigh that are so entitled to oppress opinions cause they believe you aren't entitled to have one in the first place... cause your race doesn't make the most sales remember /s. They say don't click on marine stuff if you don't want to read about it, but then again why are they here when they know it's going to be negative?
dude all that thread does is ask to have a conversation about Primaris Marines without getting flooded with "I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT PRIMARIS MARINES BECAUSE I HATE THEM AND REFUSE TO LEARN ANYTHING ABOUT THEM" posts. It was started after we'd had 5 or 6 "I hate Primaris" posts started that got kinda tiresome. And ya know what? this is something marine players over all seem to have to deal with. No one else has their army subjected to threads about how much they hate it. when's the last time you saw a post that amounted to "I HATE ORKS AND YOU SUCK FOR LIKING THEM?"
I'm sorry, you must have a short memory here - have you never seen a Tau or Eldar hate thread? Ever?
JohnnyHell wrote: Focus on your gaming group, not the fact that GW has a daily news feed.
There’s plenty to engage you if you focus on fun rather than failing about things you can’t change. And don’t actually need to to have fun.
Its like I'm not even allowed to decide what I consider fun in this thread. Incredible.
So whining is your fun? I’m trying to offer constructive advice yet you set up a strawman to attack. What is this thread even for?
No, strangely I don't find the act of complaining fun. As to your advice, it seems pretty dismissive to me. If I was having fun in the hobby I wouldn't have made this thread and I wouldn't be considering taking a break. It might just be that my idea of fun is not getting roflstomped by any SM list whether in a casual or competitive setting. It might be that my idea of fun is to have a balanced, varied and tactical game where different builds are viable for each and every faction. It might be that my idea of fun is for every faction to be on the same playing field and to have the same ability to take relics and stratagems. It might be that my idea of fun is to get hyped for varied interesting releases that aren't focused around one faction and one faction alone.
My OP explains exactly what this thread is for, if you're confused. It's literally in the last sentence.
Adding Marines to the vast majority of the starter sets, means that over the editions people end up with a sizeable force of Marines. By adding them into the starter sets, GW are showing Marines a disproportionate amount of attention and promotion. As you say it creates a trickle down effect, where the second hand market is saturated in Marines, and most 40k players will have or had a Marine force.
This isn't to say that Marines are the problem, as they aren't. It is GW's marketing strategy that is at fault here. In the old WFB, the starter sets had a good mixture of the then available factions, I think only High Elves appeared in more than one. This resulted in a good representation of the factions. There was little to any favouritism shown by GW, so players gravitated towards a faction they liked the look of.
I do wonder if the reason for Marines being so heavily promoted is to do with how easily it is to recoup the cost of the moulds. Promote them enough, they sell well, the moulds then pay for themselves, and as they still sell well, it is then more profitable to sell.
Exactly. I see this happening in AoS. I see much more diversity in AoS(there are of course meta hoppers that will skew a little) as AoS tends to not favor Stormcast too much. This year we had two boxes and none of them had Stormcast and they sold incredibly well(I still regret not buying a second Carrion Empire box).
But isn't AoS just summoning spam and skew lists like skaven?
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JohnnyHell wrote: Focus on your gaming group, not the fact that GW has a daily news feed.
There’s plenty to engage you if you focus on fun rather than failing about things you can’t change. And don’t actually need to to have fun.
I wonder how many playgroups around the world are fun for GK players. As whole doesn't matter if they are hardcore tournament set or something wierd like narrative or open. In fact it would be interesting to know how many people play w40k as a whole, and how many people main which faction to be honest. I wonder how many people play just GK nowadays. Does GW or someone else does surveys about number of players ? Were stuff like that done in the past, or is it only the tournament stuff that people have data on?
Just look t all the plastic kits churned out for warcry/necromunda/bloodbowl..
Why? Are more people going to buy warcry minis than <insert non-IOM faction name> ? I Fact is I don't have access to GW sales.. So maybe I am totaly wrong on this.. but Man I would love to take a peak so I can understand what their decision-making process is.
Its a resource management issue not a marine issue (with marines being the prime beneficiaries of this resource management obviously)
And do we even need to mention the rules feth up.. evey... time...?
Its incompetence coupled with detachment from customer base reality thats getting tiresome for me.
JohnnyHell wrote: Focus on your gaming group, not the fact that GW has a daily news feed.
There’s plenty to engage you if you focus on fun rather than failing about things you can’t change. And don’t actually need to to have fun.
Its like I'm not even allowed to decide what I consider fun in this thread. Incredible.
So whining is your fun? I’m trying to offer constructive advice yet you set up a strawman to attack. What is this thread even for?
No, strangely I don't find the act of complaining fun. As to your advice, it seems pretty dismissive to me. If I was having fun in the hobby I wouldn't have made this thread and I wouldn't be considering taking a break. It might just be that my idea of fun is not getting roflstomped by any SM list whether in a casual or competitive setting. It might be that my idea of fun is to have a balanced, varied and tactical game where different builds are viable for each and every faction. It might be that my idea of fun is for every faction to be on the same playing field and to have the same ability to take relics and stratagems. It might be that my idea of fun is to get hyped for varied interesting releases that aren't focused around one faction and one faction alone.
My OP explains exactly what this thread is for, if you're confused. It's literally in the last sentence.
Thanks for the cute insult to my intelligence, nice one. We’ve already established that there’s no way to get GW to change their approach to Marines. All that’s left then is “do others feel the same” which I’ll leave you to.
stonehorse wrote: Where as a faction like say Dark Eldar are a little harder to promote, their motive/background/imagery is not easy to sell to kids, also their play style can be difficult as they aren't as forgiving to play or paint as Marines are.
TL/DR, Marines sell the most and they are the IP that has made GW what they are. As a result GW will not change their marketing strategy around Marines.
With the popularity of franchises like Call of Duty, you could easily sell the Imperial Guard to kids. Anime is more popular in the West than it's ever been, and Tau have a recognizable style that feeds into that. Orks are uniquely 40K, and there was a time when they were the second-most-played faction. Tyranids are familiar to anyone who's seen Starship Troopers or played Starcraft, and the swarm of evil bugs is a classic sci-fi antagonist archetype.
I don't buy that Space Marines are the only army that they could successfully promote. Age of Sigmar seems to be doing just fine, and that setting isn't nearly as skewed towards Stormcast as 40K is towards Marines. Stormcast may feature heavily in the marketing and imagery, but they actually regularly release boxed sets that don't involve Stormcast at all.
PenitentJake wrote: Okay. Haven't read the whole thread, but tried to read most. Negativity gets to me.
Spoiler:
I've been waiting since 95 for GSC and since 2003 for sisters. I've already got one [and I LOVE it!]. The other drops in November. And that is freakin fantastic. Not sure I could be happier.
I've wanted to play both Eldar and Dark Eldar forever, but never bought anything; I've always hated resin, but Banshees and Incubi were actually two of my favourite units. And as for those falcons and vypers everyone has already? I don't. And I want them. And now I'm going to get them.
You can't say Xenos aren't supported after the PA drops. You can complain about the cost of the box, or even its contents. But four new units, a box set and a campaign book is NOT unsupported.
Did they talk about marines in Orktober? Sure. But you know what didn't happen? They didn't get a marines vs marines stand alone game with loads of new vehicle kits. but I seem to recall that happening for Orks, so again, NOT unsupported.
I too was POed about losses to Dark Eldar, but as much as I love Baron Sathonyx, Lady Malys, Duke Sliscus and Keradruahk, none of them ever had models, so it's not actually as much of a loss as it is made out to be. Yes, it probably means they are less likely to be realized, but I still have hope. The revival of the GSC after 22 years really does mean this edition is different and anything really is possible.
Heck, you've got a choice now between 3 different Rogue Traders for cryin out loud!
I also don't think it's at all fair to talk about the success or failure of PA after one book out of what will probably end up being a ten book set.
You know, I've lived through editions that felt far more marine dominant than this one. And under previous editions, there was always this threat of the dreaded reset button that would mean living through all those marine releases AGAIN, which was utterly terrifying. It's why I get filled with dread every time I see a thread wishing for a 9th ed. Because THAT is what leads to the marine spam more than anything else. I think GW has learned that the only way we're ever gonna get to Tau auxilia is if an edition lasts for a decade or so, and really? Hopefully the rest of my lifetime.
I bought enough product from this edition, and intend to continue doing so for as long as I am able, that I can single handedly supply my entire small group of friends with enough rules and models to keep us playing for as long as we have the will.
As for the GK/DW should not be their own armies arguments, I have to struggle to control my rage every time I see it. I want these armies, and I could care less that they don't win tournaments. They tell stories I want told, and I'm ecstatic that they exist- ESPECIALLY DW because back in the Witch Hunters/ Daemon Hunter days, they never got around to Xenos Hunters because of a stupid freakin edition reset. So technically that's a third army that I've been waiting for since the early 2000's that this addition has given me at last!
So forgive me if I say how dare you suggest they take away things I've wanted for decades now that I finally have them.
And we will get an Imperial Agents dex- the Apocalypse rules got a set of Imperial Agents cards as a free PDF. So far, they've laid the groundwork for Rogue Traders,Assassins and SoS; Inquistion is in next month's WD to finish off the set. I figure January might be the next PA drop, and it may be Imperial Agents. It will also coincide with the second wave of Sisters releases whenever it happens.
You probably should have read the thread, or at least my OP, so you had a vague idea of what my complaint is. I have not said anywhere that anything has been taken away.
You are comparing a apples and oranges when you claim that other factions are supported compared to Marines. Yes, Necrons had that paltry character in that boxed set that one time, oh and a forgeworld super heavy. Orks had 6 new buggies (that can't be used in competitive play because they are so awful) while losing more options in their codex. Craftworld Eldar have received a new character sculpt, a useless terrain piece and now Banshees and a singular special character. Dark Eldar have received Incubi and a singular special character. GSC did well, they got a vehicle unit, a biker unit and 5 or 6 characters IIRC. Tyranids have had 0 new model releases to my knowledge. Tau have had 0 new model releases to my knowledge. Harlies have had 0 new model releases to my knowledge. How many new model releases have Marines had this edition again? I've genuinely lost count.
It's not just the infinite model releases Marines enjoy either. They are the only faction, the only faction to have an actual v2 codex. They are, in addition, the only faction to have codex supplements for their sub-factions.
How is this in any way fair, equal or balanced? It's not even close. What I have been saying is that this disparity is such that it has actually driven me away from the hobby as a whole. I am so sick of the Marine releases and focus by GW that I am losing interest in the hobby generally. I can't be bothered to play, I can't be bothered to paint, I can't even be bothered to build. This has nothing to do with "Marine articles" or "Marine posts on a forum" like some of you incredibly claim. It's to do with the focus of GW and the fact that 95% of it is aimed at Marines. For me, if GW don't change their stance on this I will stop hobbying all together. I'm sure others will follow suit. This will hurt GWs bottom line and, more importantly, the hobby as a whole.
I read all of the first 2 pages and skimmed the 3rd. I got your OP loud and clear, but I was responding to other comments as well as your OP. I really need to learn to multiquote so I can disambiguate- it would have made my post more clear.
So I think you misread my point a bit. I agree that Marines get more content, and that they currently have more content- I'm sorry if I soundened like I was invalidating your point of view- I'm actually not. What I am saying is that this edition has been less marine spam than other editions, and the fact that it seems like there is no reset button in sight likely means that this will become even more apparent as the edition moves on. Heck, PA is giving updates to 24 factions! And it just seems odd to me that no one else sees this.
As for the cost of the PA box, and its contents, like I said, those too are valid complaints. The box certainly has less value for existing players due to the likelihood that they already have many of the models, and it would certainly have more value to new players if it included troops. It's great for Ynarri players, because all of the units work in a Ynarri. It's also great for people like me who want to start building both a DE and a CWE army. For everyone else, yeah, it definitely could have been better.
But in terms of dollars, (Canadian dollars anyway) just the existing models come to $205 (65 Falcon, 40 Vyper, 40 Venom, 30 Scourges, 30 Hellions); that means that you get 2 new HQ sculpts and 2 new Elites sculpts plus the campaign book and all the data sheets for $75, and that is a deal. Yes, it's true you have to want and have a place for all the other stuff in order for it to be a deal- I get that. But that's not the same thing as "it is an over priced box." I figure each of the new kits will fetch a minimum of $40 when they come out as separates, which would work out to an $85 discount (assuming you don't put a cash value on the data cards and campaign book- if you do, the savings is higher).
Finally, someone pointed out that a few of the things I mentioned as coming out in 8th actually came out in 7th; I knew that was true of GSC, but it was late enough in 7th, and the 8th dex was such an expansion on the 7th that I just let it ride- probably not cool, given how hard I police semantics- sorry about that. As for the DW, I was totally unaware they had a dex in 7th. I'm glad that GW updated it for 8th.
And again, I'm not saying anyone's opinion is not valid; I know where you're all coming from, and I the game and the company could definitely use some more improvement. I'm just trying to diminish negative feelings because I'm a crazy old hippie, and I think most people would prefer to be happy than sad. If I could help anyone feel just a little bit better about their hobby, their day or the state of the world in general, it's worth all the paragraphs I have to write and all the bitterness I have to read through to get here.
This thread has been kind of a breath of fresh air to hear other people are sick of marine releases. Although I think its the months of rules advantage that is more annoying than marines getting all the newest models. It feels like round 2 of codex vs index inequality except this time the supplements might never happen for your faction. Chapter Approved would've been a much better place to release every faction's updated chapter tactics at the same time. At this point, I'm hoping for some kind of pity update in CA like they did for the index armies in 2017.
DominayTrix wrote: This thread has been kind of a breath of fresh air to hear other people are sick of marine releases. Although I think its the months of rules advantage that is more annoying than marines getting all the newest models. It feels like round 2 of codex vs index inequality except this time the supplements might never happen for your faction. Chapter Approved would've been a much better place to release every faction's updated chapter tactics at the same time. At this point, I'm hoping for some kind of pity update in CA like they did for the index armies in 2017.
Well it's just marines vs marines at all the local shops at this point to. Very few people in the hobby don't have a marine army on the shelf they have been dying to play. It's always been a real problem with this game. These scattered rules releases prevent us from every getting a real grasp of the games balance.
in 7.5 gladius was pretty damn strong but compared to ynnari and daemonic incursion it was utter garbage but people still talk about how OP gladius was and it sure was for a time. Like now Marines are really strong compared to anything but the most WAAC tournament armies but over the next 6 months they will likely slowly fall into the middle but people will always remember these days when they got stomped by indestructible iron hands.
JohnnyHell wrote: Thanks for the cute insult to my intelligence, nice one. We’ve already established that there’s no way to get GW to change their approach to Marines. All that’s left then is “do others feel the same” which I’ll leave you to.
No, we haven't established that there's no way to get GW to change their approach to Marines. You've asserted your belief, I disagree given they are apparently now listening to feedback from customers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote: I read all of the first 2 pages and skimmed the 3rd. I got your OP loud and clear, but I was responding to other comments as well as your OP. I really need to learn to multiquote so I can disambiguate- it would have made my post more clear.
So I think you misread my point a bit.
Fair enough, to be fair my response wasn't intended to be aimed at you only either. Your points in the rest of your post are well made and valid.
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Xenomancers wrote: Very few people in the hobby don't have a marine army on the shelf they have been dying to play. It's always been a real problem with this game.
[Citation needed]
I will concede that most 40k players own a Marine army, but I suspect it's because they feature in 99.9% of starter sets therefore people end up owning marines as much by accident than by design. "Dying to play"? I doubt it.
Ishagu wrote: If people buy more Xenos, they'll get more Xenos.
That's the truth
If GW advertised more for xenos, people would buy more xenos. That's the truth too.
How did a 200 million dollar advertising campaign turn out for Star Wars: Solo? :-P
Are you saying that changing the "mascot" to eldar or Tau etc would burn the core audience (marine players) to stop buying future GW products?
Or that it would fail to attract a new audience...
More or less in response to this though GW should go back to marines VS Xenos as opposed to marines VS spikey marines. When I think 40k I think of that dawn of war cutscene with the orks, or the blood ravens VS the banshees
^ This thread alone started to make me realize there is a bit of marine entitlement / fascism running around dakka. I didn't post I just accepted it, it was fairly moderated to keep the thread to its name. People have a right to an opinion and to say it but apparently xenos aren't allowed to have one, and if you do they are allowed to walk into it and denounce it. I have actually started frequenting other forums like The Dark City and r/eldar. Even on those forums you still get IoM trolls, apologists & reactionaries like in this thread. But it is what it is.
OT: Yes there are severe signs of fatigue completely agree. I think they should of just rebooted the original dex. It was hard to deal with new models with new abilities and balance them with rules I get it. Marine's needed attention but they did not need supplementals. No OP you aren't alone just most people don't want the flack or to trivial argue with Mon-keigh that are so entitled to oppress opinions cause they believe you aren't entitled to have one in the first place... cause your race doesn't make the most sales remember /s. They say don't click on marine stuff if you don't want to read about it, but then again why are they here when they know it's going to be negative?
dude all that thread does is ask to have a conversation about Primaris Marines without getting flooded with "I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT PRIMARIS MARINES BECAUSE I HATE THEM AND REFUSE TO LEARN ANYTHING ABOUT THEM" posts. It was started after we'd had 5 or 6 "I hate Primaris" posts started that got kinda tiresome. And ya know what? this is something marine players over all seem to have to deal with. No one else has their army subjected to threads about how much they hate it. when's the last time you saw a post that amounted to "I HATE ORKS AND YOU SUCK FOR LIKING THEM?"
I'm sorry, you must have a short memory here - have you never seen a Tau or Eldar hate thread? Ever?
not often, I've seen the occasional "Tau are an awkward fit for 40k" arguement (I've agreed, but not because I wanted them gone, but rather because I wanted them given greater range, the startide nexus is exactly what the Tau needed) and I've never seen Eldar hate. Meanwhile I've never seen Eldar hate threads, well.. beyond the useal "Eldar are OP please nerf" that occurs everytime an army, any army wins a major event
You must not have played or kept up on the net long. As there was much Eldar hate in the past two editions at least. Scatter bikes, so much intense fun. The codex in general, was super fun to play against.
That said, I don't hate any army but Necrons. However I can see where people would grow to hate some of the abusive builds.
Oh I'd add in Imperial Guard hate to your lexicon. People love to hate Guard. They've hated them when bad, hate them more when good, hate them most used as CP farms. Though with the new marine super love, they've come up less and less. Fancy that.
AngryAngel80 wrote: You must not have played or kept up on the net long. As there was much Eldar hate in the past two editions at least. Scatter bikes, so much intense fun. The codex in general, was super fun to play against.
That said, I don't hate any army but Necrons. However I can see where people would grow to hate some of the abusive builds.
Oh I'd add in Imperial Guard hate to your lexicon. People love to hate Guard. They've hated them when bad, hate them more when good, hate them most used as CP farms. Though with the new marine super love, they've come up less and less. Fancy that.
AngryAngel80 wrote: You must not have played or kept up on the net long. As there was much Eldar hate in the past two editions at least. Scatter bikes, so much intense fun. The codex in general, was super fun to play against.
That said, I don't hate any army but Necrons. However I can see where people would grow to hate some of the abusive builds.
Oh I'd add in Imperial Guard hate to your lexicon. People love to hate Guard. They've hated them when bad, hate them more when good, hate them most used as CP farms. Though with the new marine super love, they've come up less and less. Fancy that.
AngryAngel80 wrote: You must not have played or kept up on the net long. As there was much Eldar hate in the past two editions at least. Scatter bikes, so much intense fun. The codex in general, was super fun to play against.
That said, I don't hate any army but Necrons. However I can see where people would grow to hate some of the abusive builds.
Oh I'd add in Imperial Guard hate to your lexicon. People love to hate Guard. They've hated them when bad, hate them more when good, hate them most used as CP farms. Though with the new marine super love, they've come up less and less. Fancy that.
What's wrong with Necrons?
Nothing if you like Necrons, I just don't like them. Have hated them since they first came out. From the fact that they can be amazingly annoying when they fell down, and can all get back up with much softer morale checks for them. The near invincible monolith from back in the day. Watching old Ctans be thrown out as a gotcha unit to people who didn't know better. The storm lord making it night fighting near forever and earning first blood almost without question against me. Take your pick. Has nothing to do with how they work now exactly but my hate lingers on.
AngryAngel80 wrote: You must not have played or kept up on the net long. As there was much Eldar hate in the past two editions at least. Scatter bikes, so much intense fun. The codex in general, was super fun to play against.
That said, I don't hate any army but Necrons. However I can see where people would grow to hate some of the abusive builds.
Oh I'd add in Imperial Guard hate to your lexicon. People love to hate Guard. They've hated them when bad, hate them more when good, hate them most used as CP farms. Though with the new marine super love, they've come up less and less. Fancy that.
as I said "Beyond the Eldar are OP please nerf"
Saying the army is broke as a joke is still hating them. If they don't get as much direct hate on all that is Eldar its because GW doesn't really talk about Eldar much. Hell many players don't even know most of the Eldar units Naughty or less Naughty. Though you'd be hard pressed to find a player who doesn't know most all the marine units. It ends up going both ways, pushing one faction so hard tends to stir up love for it but over saturation will also push people who were neutral into disliking them utterly. Though demanding an army to be nerfed for OP builds is still hating them, however all that is Eldar isn't really shoved at everyone enough to make people hate them on the basis of army lore alone. You need to search for Eldar lore, you are run over and crushed by marine lore, visuals, press to love and embrace them.
Who said I was refering to them as a joke, I do remember the eldar being overpowered and people HATING on them (I felt bad for eldar players who just loved their faction) my point is you never hear people saying how eldar are bad for 40k, and you never hear people ranting and raving about hating eldar themselves, hating the rules because "they're OP this edition" is differant.
Ultimately I think we need to remember if an army exists, someone somewhere LOVES that army, and gaking on their parade no matter the army is just in poor taste. Yet you see it constantly "ohh well X shouldn't be an army, GW should just squat it" etc.
Even as a marine player, I'm tired of this long, drawn-out release. I felt the same way about Nurgle when 8th edition first dropped. It felt like every month more Nurgle was coming out. Nurgle for 40k. Nurgle for AoS. Nurgle for Blood Bowl. Drawn-out releases like this shine the spotlight on ONE faction, and make it hard to appreciate all of the other little things that come out in the interim. Things like Psychic Awakening right now feel overshadowed by the new Space Marines and the controversy of the Iron Hands being so powerful.
Meanwhile, things like Gloomspite Gitz come out as a full new army release with a ton of new models and replaced models and they're wrapped up in two weeks. I bet Ossiarch Bonereapers will be the same. Two, maybe three weeks of releases and then they'll be set aside for the next thing to hype.
We all just gotta remember: GW is inconsistent. This is because they're always trying to figure out what the best way to sell something is. It could be a problem of having too many cooks, or it could be that this is the path they've laid out years before and they're sticking to it, hell or high water. Throw in trade disputes with China and revolts in Hong Kong and you've got a recipe for inconsistency that we see happening right now.
BUT. Let's also remember that this is a LONG-TERM hobby. You can pick up a video game, read a guide, and beat it in a single sitting if you really wanted to. You can't do that with 40k. You spend hours putting your models together, hours painting them, and then each game takes hours to play. Some people can only get one game in each week! If you're upset about how much attention marines are getting, then just ignore the news for a while. Unplug from Warhammer Community and focus on your own hobby. Give it another month and you'll have a ton of new things to buy and a ton of new rumors to look at.
Staring at the thing you're tired of and screaming "I'm so sick of this!" is... well... silly.
drbored's point is a good one. I have been really salty and irritated with GW as a Word Bearer player but have recently had a much better time with my hobby.
I realised it takes me so damn long to build and paint everything that I'll just enjoy the lore and keep building towards an eventual use for them (either one page or possibly a GW release that does them justice)
drbored wrote: We all just gotta remember: GW is inconsistent. This is because they're always trying to figure out what the best way to sell something is. It could be a problem of having too many cooks, or it could be that this is the path they've laid out years before and they're sticking to it, hell or high water. Throw in trade disputes with China and revolts in Hong Kong and you've got a recipe for inconsistency that we see happening right now.
I completely disagree. One of, if not THE most consistent thing that GW has ever done is to show a preference for creating new Marine models and rules. I started playing in 2nd edition and as far as I remember this focus/obsession by GW started in 3rd with the release of the Death Watch. That's when GW decided that there had to be a different flavour of Marine for every other faction that existed, with their own special units that the other Marine chapters didn't have because *reasons*.
BUT. Let's also remember that this is a LONG-TERM hobby. You can pick up a video game, read a guide, and beat it in a single sitting if you really wanted to. You can't do that with 40k. You spend hours putting your models together, hours painting them, and then each game takes hours to play. Some people can only get one game in each week! If you're upset about how much attention marines are getting, then just ignore the news for a while. Unplug from Warhammer Community and focus on your own hobby. Give it another month and you'll have a ton of new things to buy and a ton of new rumors to look at.
This strawman again. I'm not sitting anywhere desperately searching for Marine news then getting annoyed when it appears. I can't imagine anyone sick of Marine news is. Quite the opposite. Marine news is getting thrown at me. If not by GW themselves via WarComm or their mailing list or their Facebook page, then through Forums such as this one, or through the local gaming stores all suddenly having Marine armies "out of retirement" and having promotions on all these new Marine models and codexes or of course just the players that are excited about the *yet another round of* Marine releases wanting to talk about them (in real life) - you get the picture. It is tedious, tiring and as far as I'm concerned it is synonymous with the hobby.
I could sit at home, focus on my hobby and retreat from all news and information about 40k for the time being, but I'd rather just not hobby at all. Hobbying takes quite a bit of time and effort - it is difficult to maintain momentum unless I have a driver (such as a cool new model, or book, or something, anything) to look forward to it quickly falls off of my priorities list. When I see Marine after Marine after Marine release in such a short amount of time, my hobby momentum is basically taken out back and put to rest.
Staring at the thing you're tired of and screaming "I'm so sick of this!" is... well... silly.
Yes it is. Suggesting that someone is doing such is probably even more well....silly.
Eldarain wrote: drbored's point is a good one. I have been really salty and irritated with GW as a Word Bearer player but have recently had a much better time with my hobby.
I realised it takes me so damn long to build and paint everything that I'll just enjoy the lore and keep building towards an eventual use for them (either one page or possibly a GW release that does them justice)
It really is the good answer for dealing with it. I enjoy playing my Tau and most of my purchases were heavily influence by how effective a unit is on the tabletop. Kind of annoyed that I have a fully painted army that can just get blown out of the water because marines needed special snowflake rules. I never intend for my Emperor's Children to be competitive so it's been fun slowly building up 2k to look exactly like how I want them to. Really only salty that sonic dreads are OOP and FW is expensive, but even that just means it'll take longer.
Ishagu wrote: If people buy more Xenos, they'll get more Xenos.
That's the truth
If GW advertised more for xenos, people would buy more xenos. That's the truth too.
How did a 200 million dollar advertising campaign turn out for Star Wars: Solo? :-P
That's a really dumb comparison.
On topic I agree with OP about marines over-exposure. I think a big reason for the dehypening around PA is mostly because it feels like unless its Imperial or Chaos it basically doesn't matter, so to launch with an Eldar focus was a mis-step. This is entirely GWs fault. When The End Times started there was a lot of discussion about how events would effect all the races because no one faction stood out above the other and INITIALLY there was a lot of hype from every corner. With 40k however the Imperium and especially Space Marines are such a huge focus of the narrative that everything else is basically window dressing. I'm lucky in that we only have one real SM player in our group though.
I don't begrudge them getting a lot of rules and supplements though. I still feel like its early days for 8th. We'll only just have fully updated the game from Index to Codex for all factions next month after all and I feel like people forget that a lot. They seem to expect the game to update in 2 year cycles due to how quickly 6th and 7th went by as opposed to 5 year cycles that we used to know.
I'm glad SM players get a lot of options and are in a better place, I will only begrudge them that if other factions aren't afforded the same consideration, but we won't know if thats the case until the "window dressing" armies like Tyranids and Necrons are update.
BrianDavion wrote: Who said I was refering to them as a joke, I do remember the eldar being overpowered and people HATING on them (I felt bad for eldar players who just loved their faction) my point is you never hear people saying how eldar are bad for 40k, and you never hear people ranting and raving about hating eldar themselves, hating the rules because "they're OP this edition" is differant.
Ultimately I think we need to remember if an army exists, someone somewhere LOVES that army, and gaking on their parade no matter the army is just in poor taste. Yet you see it constantly "ohh well X shouldn't be an army, GW should just squat it" etc.
I am very new to this forum and I very well remember the time when people were saying that Inari and eldar are breaking the game, before castellans came up.
saying something breaks the game isn't like saying something shouldn't exist.
Truth is there are factions which it is debatable if they should stand alone.
Truth is also that them not standing on their own would meant issues like these parts of the lore note really beeing fleshed out.
Not Online!!! wrote: saying something breaks the game isn't like saying something shouldn't exist.
Truth is there are factions which it is debatable if they should stand alone.
Truth is also that them not standing on their own would meant issues like these parts of the lore note really beeing fleshed out.
When GK were kicking ass I don't remember anyone saying they shouldn't be a faction by themselves, if they did they kept it quiet. It's only since they got bad that people have been vocal saying that. Likewise, I'm not hearing a lot of people saying knights or custodes shouldn't be a faction.
It just seems like saying a bad faction shouldn't exist is an excuse to ignore them.
Factions like GK, Custodes or Harlequins aren't too small to exist as their own armies. Space Marines have too many choices for what their supposed job is (shock assault), they don't have the numbers to engage in artillery or tank battles.
From that perspective, the Primaris line of stuff starts making a lot more sense - at least until GW bloats it up with 16 more different units in the next 3 years.
This strawman again. I'm not sitting anywhere desperately searching for Marine news then getting annoyed when it appears. I can't imagine anyone sick of Marine news is. Quite the opposite. Marine news is getting thrown at me. If not by GW themselves via WarComm or their mailing list or their Facebook page, then through Forums such as this one, or through the local gaming stores all suddenly having Marine armies "out of retirement" and having promotions on all these new Marine models and codexes or of course just the players that are excited about the *yet another round of* Marine releases wanting to talk about them (in real life) - you get the picture. It is tedious, tiring and as far as I'm concerned it is synonymous with the hobby.
I could sit at home, focus on my hobby and retreat from all news and information about 40k for the time being, but I'd rather just not hobby at all. Hobbying takes quite a bit of time and effort - it is difficult to maintain momentum unless I have a driver (such as a cool new model, or book, or something, anything) to look forward to it quickly falls off of my priorities list. When I see Marine after Marine after Marine release in such a short amount of time, my hobby momentum is basically taken out back and put to rest.
If you're getting a lot of this stuff thrown in your face, then maybe it's time to stop visiting the warhammer community website for a while. Take it off your routine. Unfollow the facebook pages. Unplug from the forums for a month. Your attitude towards the hobby will improve, I guarantee it. It's really easy to 'fishbowl', to think that there's nothing else outside of the hobby if you keep focusing on all the negatives.
Also, the lack of discipline with your hobby sounds like a -you- problem. If you can't keep motivation with the army that you're building/painting, then you must not like it enough to build and paint it for its own sake. There's plenty of hobbyists that don't have this problem at all. People that work on their Necron or Tau armies, getting them steadily built and painted, for their own sake and because they like the force, not because they got a shiny new toy or because they're the most updated. Instead of trying to pick apart my arguments and find the negative to support your own status, it's time to try a different avenue and find the fun in the hobby again.
More or less in response to this though GW should go back to marines VS Xenos as opposed to marines VS spikey marines. When I think 40k I think of that dawn of war cutscene with the orks, or the blood ravens VS the banshees
Honestly, I think of 40k as Imperium vs. Chaos. With the exception of the Eldar, who are also part of the greater Chaos-based story line, the other xenos factions aren't really super interesting or relevant and kind of feel like they're "just there".
I wish there was more to Chaos than spiky marines, and more to the liberation ideology. I really hateGSC, so I also think that the workers' revolt should have been a Chaos Cults thing. Beyond the fact that it works better from a thematic standpoint when the rebels and terrorists actually believe in and are fighting for their stated cause [rather than being mind controlled by literal rape]. In my opinion, [in addition to retconning the GSC control assumption mechanism to have less unfortunate implications and messages] is that the GSC could have focused on a "the government is actually controlled by lizard aliens who replaced the President" conspiracy level, and disgruntled miners, farmer, and factory workers with technical trucks and improvised explosives should have gone to Chaos.
I like the Chaos factions as an idea, I don't like them in implementation. I'm not interested in playing Chaos Space Marines, because the part of Chaos I'm most interested in people who noble goals falling to dark means to face the overwhelming might of their oppressors as opposed to the has-beens of 10000 years still trying to settle a grudge, and the Chaos Daemons are cool but not sufficiently aesthetically appealing. I would like it if they had guns and were sci fi daemons as opposed to just fantasy daemons tacked onto a otherwise pretty sci-fi setting. Sure, 40k has a lot of fantasy elements, but they're all adapted to be science fiction-y ports of them, while the daemons don't have that.
As for "Marine Fatique", it would have been nice if they dropped it all together rather than drawing it out, because at this point, they previewed the units and all the rules are in hand and we've known about them for a while, but the models are just coming and it feels more late than new and eciting. Also, the fact that each new SM supplement is more broken than the last and the initial debut was already a level of tacking on special rules for more power has made it just exhausting more than exciting.
More or less in response to this though GW should go back to marines VS Xenos as opposed to marines VS spikey marines. When I think 40k I think of that dawn of war cutscene with the orks, or the blood ravens VS the banshees
Honestly, I think of 40k as Imperium vs. Chaos. With the exception of the Eldar, who are also part of the greater Chaos-based story line, the other xenos factions aren't really super interesting or relevant and kind of feel like they're "just there".
I wish there was more to Chaos than spiky marines, and more to the liberation ideology. I really hateGSC, so I also think that the workers' revolt should have been a Chaos Cults thing. Beyond the fact that it works better from a thematic standpoint when the rebels and terrorists actually believe in and are fighting for their stated cause [rather than being mind controlled by literal rape]. In my opinion, [in addition to retconning the GSC control assumption mechanism to have less unfortunate implications and messages] is that the GSC could have focused on a "the government is actually controlled by lizard aliens who replaced the President" conspiracy level, and disgruntled miners, farmer, and factory workers with technical trucks and improvised explosives should have gone to Chaos.
I like the Chaos factions as an idea, I don't like them in implementation. I'm not interested in playing Chaos Space Marines, because the part of Chaos I'm most interested in people who noble goals falling to dark means to face the overwhelming might of their oppressors as opposed to the has-beens of 10000 years still trying to settle a grudge, and the Chaos Daemons are cool but not sufficiently aesthetically appealing. I would like it if they had guns and were sci fi daemons as opposed to just fantasy daemons tacked onto a otherwise pretty sci-fi setting. Sure, 40k has a lot of fantasy elements, but they're all adapted to be science fiction-y ports of them, while the daemons don't have that.
As for "Marine Fatique", it would have been nice if they dropped it all together rather than drawing it out, because at this point, they previewed the units and all the rules are in hand and we've known about them for a while, but the models are just coming and it feels more late than new and eciting. Also, the fact that each new SM supplement is more broken than the last and the initial debut was already a level of tacking on special rules for more power has made it just exhausting more than exciting.
hopefully the rumored lost and damned codex will scratch that itch for you.
drbored wrote: If you're getting a lot of this stuff thrown in your face, then maybe it's time to stop visiting the warhammer community website for a while. Take it off your routine. Unfollow the facebook pages. Unplug from the forums for a month. Your attitude towards the hobby will improve, I guarantee it. It's really easy to 'fishbowl', to think that there's nothing else outside of the hobby if you keep focusing on all the negatives.
I don't know how many times I can say "it's not entirely on social media" before you'll actually understand that 'it's not entirely on social media'. Do you have a response to any of this (that was in the quotation of mine you were responding to, by the way);
through the local gaming stores all suddenly having Marine armies "out of retirement" and having promotions on all these new Marine models and codexes or of course just the players that are excited about the *yet another round of* Marine releases wanting to talk about them (in real life)?
Also, the lack of discipline with your hobby sounds like a -you- problem. If you can't keep motivation with the army that you're building/painting, then you must not like it enough to build and paint it for its own sake. There's plenty of hobbyists that don't have this problem at all. People that work on their Necron or Tau armies, getting them steadily built and painted, for their own sake and because they like the force, not because they got a shiny new toy or because they're the most updated. Instead of trying to pick apart my arguments and find the negative to support your own status, it's time to try a different avenue and find the fun in the hobby again.
Ah the ad hominems. Of course.
Ask your Tau, Necron and Tyranid friends if they're as pumped about the hobby as they were 12 or 18 months ago. See what they say. I'd be surprised if they are. It's not about liking a force because "they got a shiny new toy" it's about GW keeping my interest in the hobby through their actions. And trust me, it's not my problem if I stop spending on the hobby, I won't suffer for it.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Honestly, I think of 40k as Imperium vs. Chaos. With the exception of the Eldar, who are also part of the greater Chaos-based story line, the other xenos factions aren't really super interesting or relevant and kind of feel like they're "just there".
Not featuring in any significant narrative can tend to make a faction feel like they're 'just there', yes. That's not a matter of the faction so much as how the non-Chaos antagonists have been shoved into a corner.
More or less in response to this though GW should go back to marines VS Xenos as opposed to marines VS spikey marines. When I think 40k I think of that dawn of war cutscene with the orks, or the blood ravens VS the banshees
Honestly, I think of 40k as Imperium vs. Chaos. With the exception of the Eldar, who are also part of the greater Chaos-based story line, the other xenos factions aren't really super interesting or relevant and kind of feel like they're "just there".
I wish there was more to Chaos than spiky marines, and more to the liberation ideology. I really hateGSC, so I also think that the workers' revolt should have been a Chaos Cults thing. Beyond the fact that it works better from a thematic standpoint when the rebels and terrorists actually believe in and are fighting for their stated cause [rather than being mind controlled by literal rape]. In my opinion, [in addition to retconning the GSC control assumption mechanism to have less unfortunate implications and messages] is that the GSC could have focused on a "the government is actually controlled by lizard aliens who replaced the President" conspiracy level, and disgruntled miners, farmer, and factory workers with technical trucks and improvised explosives should have gone to Chaos.
I like the Chaos factions as an idea, I don't like them in implementation. I'm not interested in playing Chaos Space Marines, because the part of Chaos I'm most interested in people who noble goals falling to dark means to face the overwhelming might of their oppressors as opposed to the has-beens of 10000 years still trying to settle a grudge, and the Chaos Daemons are cool but not sufficiently aesthetically appealing. I would like it if they had guns and were sci fi daemons as opposed to just fantasy daemons tacked onto a otherwise pretty sci-fi setting. Sure, 40k has a lot of fantasy elements, but they're all adapted to be science fiction-y ports of them, while the daemons don't have that.
As for "Marine Fatique", it would have been nice if they dropped it all together rather than drawing it out, because at this point, they previewed the units and all the rules are in hand and we've known about them for a while, but the models are just coming and it feels more late than new and eciting. Also, the fact that each new SM supplement is more broken than the last and the initial debut was already a level of tacking on special rules for more power has made it just exhausting more than exciting.
hopefully the rumored lost and damned codex will scratch that itch for you.
I don't think GW is much interesting stuff they broke, specially if they knew they are breaking it. They could be interested in fixing stuff they want to sell more, or base whole new models lines on. But I don't see someone at GW pondering day and night for weeks how to fix, lets say space marine AA tanks
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Honestly, I think of 40k as Imperium vs. Chaos. With the exception of the Eldar, who are also part of the greater Chaos-based story line, the other xenos factions aren't really super interesting or relevant and kind of feel like they're "just there".
Not featuring in any significant narrative can tend to make a faction feel like they're 'just there', yes. That's not a matter of the faction so much as how the non-Chaos antagonists have been shoved into a corner.
Though even when they were front and center in Leviathan, Mont'ka, and Sanctus Reach they didn't feel as "tied in" as the greater narrative against Chaos does, which spans everything goes from thing to thing, and touches everything.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Honestly, I think of 40k as Imperium vs. Chaos. With the exception of the Eldar, who are also part of the greater Chaos-based story line, the other xenos factions aren't really super interesting or relevant and kind of feel like they're "just there".
Not featuring in any significant narrative can tend to make a faction feel like they're 'just there', yes. That's not a matter of the faction so much as how the non-Chaos antagonists have been shoved into a corner.
Though even when they were front and center in Leviathan, Mont'ka, and Sanctus Reach they didn't feel as "tied in" as the greater narrative against Chaos does, which spans everything goes from thing to thing, and touches everything.
The reason they probably don't feel as "tied in" is because for almost every campaign in which they are "front and center" they are actually only a precursor threat to an OMGCHAOZWOZDABADDIESALLALONGG!!11one drop that GW thinks is oh so clever while literally doing the same thing every time.
I don't know how long you've been playing, but when I started Chaos, Orks, Eldar, Nids and Necrons were all considered a pretty equal and significant threat to the IOM. The focus/obsession with SM vs CSM is a relatively recent thing.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Honestly, I think of 40k as Imperium vs. Chaos. With the exception of the Eldar, who are also part of the greater Chaos-based story line, the other xenos factions aren't really super interesting or relevant and kind of feel like they're "just there".
Not featuring in any significant narrative can tend to make a faction feel like they're 'just there', yes. That's not a matter of the faction so much as how the non-Chaos antagonists have been shoved into a corner.
Though even when they were front and center in Leviathan, Mont'ka, and Sanctus Reach they didn't feel as "tied in" as the greater narrative against Chaos does, which spans everything goes from thing to thing, and touches everything.
The reason they probably don't feel as "tied in" is because for almost every campaign in which they are "front and center" they are actually only a precursor threat to an OMGCHAOZWOZDABADDIESALLALONGG!!11one drop that GW thinks is oh so clever while literally doing the same thing every time.
I don't know how long you've been playing, but when I started Chaos, Orks, Eldar, Nids and Necrons were all considered a pretty equal and significant threat to the IOM. The focus/obsession with SM vs CSM is a relatively recent thing.
I think, for now at least, they're trying to narrativly put the focus back on Chaos as Chaos was supposed to be a major threat but thanks to mishandling (such as the whole cadia situation) before the end of 7th, people joked about Chaos not really doing anything, you had internet memes like Abaddon the (h)armless etc.
I'm hoping this will be a temporary thing, because I agree some xenos threats have fallen by the wayside, it's been ages since Necrons have really been depicted as a threat. and yeah Orks seem to be falling into the trap of "LOL THEY WHERE A DISTRINCTION! CHAOS IS THE REAL THREAT" thing that has been done to death in relic video games. I'd LOOOVE to see necrons and orks register as big time threats.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Honestly, I think of 40k as Imperium vs. Chaos. With the exception of the Eldar, who are also part of the greater Chaos-based story line, the other xenos factions aren't really super interesting or relevant and kind of feel like they're "just there".
Not featuring in any significant narrative can tend to make a faction feel like they're 'just there', yes. That's not a matter of the faction so much as how the non-Chaos antagonists have been shoved into a corner.
Though even when they were front and center in Leviathan, Mont'ka, and Sanctus Reach they didn't feel as "tied in" as the greater narrative against Chaos does, which spans everything goes from thing to thing, and touches everything.
The reason they probably don't feel as "tied in" is because for almost every campaign in which they are "front and center" they are actually only a precursor threat to an OMGCHAOZWOZDABADDIESALLALONGG!!11one drop that GW thinks is oh so clever while literally doing the same thing every time.
I don't know how long you've been playing, but when I started Chaos, Orks, Eldar, Nids and Necrons were all considered a pretty equal and significant threat to the IOM. The focus/obsession with SM vs CSM is a relatively recent thing.
So true. The Imperium evacuating and razing hundreds of systems to try and slow down Hive Fleet Leviathan. The Nightbringer being the cause of the fear of death for all races, and Pariahs being a twisted plan for the human genome.
I think it says a lot about where you are at when posters are trying to help and you call their posts out with argumentative fallacies.
For something to be a strawman or an ad hominem, I believe one has to be debating or arguing. What I wrote and what I have read in this thread aren't arguments, debates or contentions. They are merely suggestions offered trying to relieve your fatigue. Maybe they are wrong or unwarranted. If so feel free to ignore them. But it you want to circle the wagons and see them as attacks that need to labeled with argumentative fallacies to bulwark your mental fortifications, more power to you. Just trying to help where I think I have the ability to do so and try to direct you away from where I think none of us have the power to make change. That's how I read drbored's posts as well.
I for one with surely stop offering suggestions to you I think may help as they are seen as attacks more than aid. My final piece of advice to you is to try to not see every post as an attack that needs to be parried. Not every communication interaction is a debate. If you think it is, maybe some self reflection is in order.
Eonfuzz wrote: A week after the first PA release and the only news we've heard about is marine releases.
Pretty typical.
What the hell are you on about? Phoenix Arising was only released on Saturday, and Psychic Awakening updates happen on a Monday. Sure, a lot of last week was Marine-centric, but that was because they were going up on pre-order on Saturday.
Don't blame GW because you can't remember the schedule they said they'd do PA updates on.
I think it says a lot about where you are at when posters are trying to help and you call their posts out with argumentative fallacies.
Spoiler:
For something to be a strawman or an ad hominem, I believe one has to be debating or arguing. What I wrote and what I have read in this thread aren't arguments, debates or contentions. They are merely suggestions offered trying to relieve your fatigue. Maybe they are wrong or unwarranted. If so feel free to ignore them. But it you want to circle the wagons and see them as attacks that need to labeled with argumentative fallacies to bulwark your mental fortifications, more power to you. Just trying to help where I think I have the ability to do so and try to direct you away from where I think none of us have the power to make change. That's how I read drbored's posts as well.
I for one with surely stop offering suggestions to you I think may help as they are seen as attacks more than aid. My final piece of advice to you is to try to not see every post as an attack that needs to be parried.
Not every communication interaction is a debate. If you think it is, maybe some self reflection is in order.
The thing is your so called advise is clearly a thinly veiled attempt to legitimise what you believe is fine (GWs obsession with Marines) and criticise me for suggesting otherwise, while claiming that 'it's a -you- problem' or 'stop looking at all those websites lolol' or 'you should love a faction because you love it, not because it gets new stuff, fake fan'.
You couldn't even resist in this post above where you have allegedly signed out of the thread - apparently I am throwing argumentative fallacies at posters just 'trying to help' and I need to 'self reflect' because I see everything as a debate.
I don't think you're attacking me in all cases. I simply think your advise is not only useless (because it stems from a place of ignorance) but it is also pointless. I have tried your suggestions, they haven't worked and have proven futile. You assume my first attempt at dealing with an issue in the hobby is to make a post on here about it, which is telling in and of itself.
Offloading like this is the last thing I can try, really. It helps, but not enough. The most recent PA announcement is the final nail in the coffin as as far as my hobby excitement is concerned. Time for a break, I think. You can disagree with that all you like, I really don't care, but it doesn't look like I'm alone in my boredom of GWs focus on all things power armour.
Eonfuzz wrote: A week after the first PA release and the only news we've heard about is marine releases.
Pretty typical.
What the hell are you on about? Phoenix Arising was only released on Saturday, and Psychic Awakening updates happen on a Monday. Sure, a lot of last week was Marine-centric, but that was because they were going up on pre-order on Saturday.
Don't blame GW because you can't remember the schedule they said they'd do PA updates on.
The next week is going to be Marine centric too, and the 3 weeks after that as the second PA volume has 6 Marine factions within.
Eonfuzz wrote: A week after the first PA release and the only news we've heard about is marine releases.
Pretty typical.
What the hell are you on about? Phoenix Arising was only released on Saturday, and Psychic Awakening updates happen on a Monday. Sure, a lot of last week was Marine-centric, but that was because they were going up on pre-order on Saturday.
Don't blame GW because you can't remember the schedule they said they'd do PA updates on.
The next week is going to be Marine centric too, and the 3 weeks after that as the second PA volume has 6 Marine factions within.
I'm assuming nothing about PA until I see updates on WHC about it - tbh, I wouldn't be that surprised if this week's update is still talking about Phoenix Rising or Blood of the Phoenix, given they were only released at the weekend.
Yeah they already released a video highlighting black templar in the next PA release.
As an imperial lover I'd really like to be able to say " guys, it's not that bad. " really though. Just look at the actual model releases since 8th dropped. The vast lions share is marines. Even including other imperial forces, let alone xeno.
I get marines are cool, hell I have like 4 different chapters of marines, trust me I know they are cool. It's just getting a bit nuts for everyone else though as far as model releases go and pushing a narrative that isn't just marines with the very rare blip on the radar which is this eldar drop which was intermixed with more marines and marines following directly after.
I find it hard to care at this point but then I'm still nursing my sweet Sly Marbo model for my guard. I've had all this time to appreciate his glory.
Well, compare the shiny new Marine releases with the release of Phönix rising.
The latter has not received any love by GW.
Or would GW release a box with Landspeeders and Predators atm?
Eonfuzz wrote: A week after the first PA release and the only news we've heard about is marine releases.
Pretty typical.
What the hell are you on about? Phoenix Arising was only released on Saturday, and Psychic Awakening updates happen on a Monday. Sure, a lot of last week was Marine-centric, but that was because they were going up on pre-order on Saturday.
Don't blame GW because you can't remember the schedule they said they'd do PA updates on.
The next week is going to be Marine centric too, and the 3 weeks after that as the second PA volume has 6 Marine factions within.
I'm assuming nothing about PA until I see updates on WHC about it - tbh, I wouldn't be that surprised if this week's update is still talking about Phoenix Rising or Blood of the Phoenix, given they were only released at the weekend.
Check WHC, they've posted a video stating what I've written above.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Honestly, I think of 40k as Imperium vs. Chaos. With the exception of the Eldar, who are also part of the greater Chaos-based story line, the other xenos factions aren't really super interesting or relevant and kind of feel like they're "just there".
Not featuring in any significant narrative can tend to make a faction feel like they're 'just there', yes. That's not a matter of the faction so much as how the non-Chaos antagonists have been shoved into a corner.
Though even when they were front and center in Leviathan, Mont'ka, and Sanctus Reach they didn't feel as "tied in" as the greater narrative against Chaos does, which spans everything goes from thing to thing, and touches everything.
The reason they probably don't feel as "tied in" is because for almost every campaign in which they are "front and center" they are actually only a precursor threat to an OMGCHAOZWOZDABADDIESALLALONGG!!11one drop that GW thinks is oh so clever while literally doing the same thing every time.
I don't know how long you've been playing, but when I started Chaos, Orks, Eldar, Nids and Necrons were all considered a pretty equal and significant threat to the IOM. The focus/obsession with SM vs CSM is a relatively recent thing.
I think, for now at least, they're trying to narrativly put the focus back on Chaos as Chaos was supposed to be a major threat but thanks to mishandling (such as the whole cadia situation) before the end of 7th, people joked about Chaos not really doing anything, you had internet memes like Abaddon the (h)armless etc.
I'm hoping this will be a temporary thing, because I agree some xenos threats have fallen by the wayside, it's been ages since Necrons have really been depicted as a threat. and yeah Orks seem to be falling into the trap of "LOL THEY WHERE A DISTRINCTION! CHAOS IS THE REAL THREAT" thing that has been done to death in relic video games. I'd LOOOVE to see necrons and orks register as big time threats.
I think even when it is a focus on chaos, it’s still mostly all center on the marine factions anyway. Abaddon will probably stay a bit of joke with the direction it’s all going. Space marines are fast becoming a lame joke in the setting that made them so evocative to me. A basic space marine is so far on the space marine level now. It’s kinda hard not to take them as a bit of a joke as a whole for me.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, compare the shiny new Marine releases with the release of Phönix rising.
The latter has not received any love by GW.
Or would GW release a box with Landspeeders and Predators atm?
No but honestly I'd have been more prone to buy wake the dead if it had a land speeder or predator in it over the reivers it came with
The reason they probably don't feel as "tied in" is because for almost every campaign in which they are "front and center" they are actually only a precursor threat to an OMGCHAOZWOZDABADDIESALLALONGG!!11one drop that GW thinks is oh so clever while literally doing the same thing every time.
I don't know how long you've been playing, but when I started Chaos, Orks, Eldar, Nids and Necrons were all considered a pretty equal and significant threat to the IOM. The focus/obsession with SM vs CSM is a relatively recent thing.
I've been playing since 5e.
Anyway, I don't think Chaos shows up during Warzone Damocles or Shield of Baal.
As for the significance of the narrative, it's not like the various non-Eldar xenos haven't featured as the primary antagonist of major splats, it's a circular situation of they're not in a major event because the event in question is about them. The Eldar feel significant even when they're not front and center most of the time because they're part of the greater Chaos narrative and they have significant contributions, but the Damocles campaign, despite being 4 books long, feel less significant because it's about the Tau. It's circular.
The reason they probably don't feel as "tied in" is because for almost every campaign in which they are "front and center" they are actually only a precursor threat to an OMGCHAOZWOZDABADDIESALLALONGG!!11one drop that GW thinks is oh so clever while literally doing the same thing every time.
I don't know how long you've been playing, but when I started Chaos, Orks, Eldar, Nids and Necrons were all considered a pretty equal and significant threat to the IOM. The focus/obsession with SM vs CSM is a relatively recent thing.
I've been playing since 5e.
Anyway, I don't think Chaos shows up during Warzone Damocles or Shield of Baal.
They don't. however Englishman is an Ork fan and I will admit that there is a tendancy to use Ork invasions and pre-cursors to Chaos. you saw it with dawn of war 1, Warhammer 4ok Space Marine, you saw Deamons show up in the red Waagh IIRC. Viglius of course had a speed waagh as a precursor to the black legion showing up, khornite forces have shown up on Armageddon. Englishman has a point that it seems that Orks at least are treated as sort of an "appertizer" for IoM in their conflicts with chaos. and it IS getting a bit dull. I'd certainly enjoy seeing a big mega Waagh event. I think if I was tasked with writing it I'd have a giant waagh rush into the Damocles gulf area. you'd have Orks fighting Tau, Imperium (not together. just the Orks wouldn't care about the border so they'd hit both factions) and maybe even at least one Orks vs 'Nids event.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, compare the shiny new Marine releases with the release of Phönix rising.
The latter has not received any love by GW.
Or would GW release a box with Landspeeders and Predators atm?
No but honestly I'd have been more prone to buy wake the dead if it had a land speeder or predator in it over the reivers it came with
But they've improved the Reivers by the new assault rule (+1A for charging or being charged).
The reason they probably don't feel as "tied in" is because for almost every campaign in which they are "front and center" they are actually only a precursor threat to an OMGCHAOZWOZDABADDIESALLALONGG!!11one drop that GW thinks is oh so clever while literally doing the same thing every time.
I don't know how long you've been playing, but when I started Chaos, Orks, Eldar, Nids and Necrons were all considered a pretty equal and significant threat to the IOM. The focus/obsession with SM vs CSM is a relatively recent thing.
I've been playing since 5e.
Anyway, I don't think Chaos shows up during Warzone Damocles or Shield of Baal.
They don't. however Englishman is an Ork fan and I will admit that there is a tendancy to use Ork invasions and pre-cursors to Chaos. you saw it with dawn of war 1, Warhammer 4ok Space Marine, you saw Deamons show up in the red Waagh IIRC. Viglius of course had a speed waagh as a precursor to the black legion showing up, khornite forces have shown up on Armageddon. Englishman has a point that it seems that Orks at least are treated as sort of an "appertizer" for IoM in their conflicts with chaos. and it IS getting a bit dull. I'd certainly enjoy seeing a big mega Waagh event. I think if I was tasked with writing it I'd have a giant waagh rush into the Damocles gulf area. you'd have Orks fighting Tau, Imperium (not together. just the Orks wouldn't care about the border so they'd hit both factions) and maybe even at least one Orks vs 'Nids event.
Of the Xenos to be a serious threat, I'd rather Tyranids than Orks. Theoretically, a Tau-Imperium-'Nids arrangement would work for a arc. Out of all the xenos, the Tyranids have the biggest potential to be played up IMO, particularly since the "bugs" are a classic part of sci-fi.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, compare the shiny new Marine releases with the release of Phönix rising.
The latter has not received any love by GW.
Or would GW release a box with Landspeeders and Predators atm?
No but honestly I'd have been more prone to buy wake the dead if it had a land speeder or predator in it over the reivers it came with
But they've improved the Reivers by the new assault rule (+1A for charging or being charged).
wake the dead was before that boxed set so even if it had improved it it would have been irrelevant. I mean if 6 months from now codex eldar 2.0 makes the falcon tank an OP god machine you want to spam, that's not going to reduce the eldar who feel the box right now isn't a great buy.
The reason they probably don't feel as "tied in" is because for almost every campaign in which they are "front and center" they are actually only a precursor threat to an OMGCHAOZWOZDABADDIESALLALONGG!!11one drop that GW thinks is oh so clever while literally doing the same thing every time.
I don't know how long you've been playing, but when I started Chaos, Orks, Eldar, Nids and Necrons were all considered a pretty equal and significant threat to the IOM. The focus/obsession with SM vs CSM is a relatively recent thing.
I've been playing since 5e.
Anyway, I don't think Chaos shows up during Warzone Damocles or Shield of Baal.
They don't. however Englishman is an Ork fan and I will admit that there is a tendancy to use Ork invasions and pre-cursors to Chaos. you saw it with dawn of war 1, Warhammer 4ok Space Marine, you saw Deamons show up in the red Waagh IIRC. Viglius of course had a speed waagh as a precursor to the black legion showing up, khornite forces have shown up on Armageddon. Englishman has a point that it seems that Orks at least are treated as sort of an "appertizer" for IoM in their conflicts with chaos. and it IS getting a bit dull. I'd certainly enjoy seeing a big mega Waagh event. I think if I was tasked with writing it I'd have a giant waagh rush into the Damocles gulf area. you'd have Orks fighting Tau, Imperium (not together. just the Orks wouldn't care about the border so they'd hit both factions) and maybe even at least one Orks vs 'Nids event.
Of the Xenos to be a serious threat, I'd rather Tyranids than Orks. Theoretically, a Tau-Imperium-'Nids arrangement would work for a arc. Out of all the xenos, the Tyranids have the biggest potential to be played up IMO, particularly since the "bugs" are a classic part of sci-fi.
It doesn't really matter what any of us want though does it? GW is going to continue driving the narrative forward in terms of SM vs CSM and that'll be that.
Brian is absolutely correct in that there are plenty of campaigns where a xeno faction was only the appetizer to the "real" threat of Chaos.
As you've only played since 5th Ed, I can see why you'd think this the norm. It wasn't, for a long time.
except as they note. we do have xenos stand alones, shield of bhaal, damocles gulf. as I said (I started in 5th edition too BTW) this isn't a xenos issue, but it's definalty an ORKS issue.
TLDR: It doesn't matter what you play atm, it is bad imo.
SM: because supplement and model release feel stretched beyond necicisty. In fact many a SM player is like why are they only just now releasing these models. Also new models take the piss price wise (3 dudes for that price?!?)
CSM: because hello hello a propper update would feel diffrent. And now they get supplements on top of it, with rules that got taken away from us and other factions due to beeing deemed unfun and yet SM get them and are fine?
DG: because their Trait became useless.
TS: because the army just feels unfinished compared to even DG.
Craftworlders: Because A the new box sucks and B most of the range is still ancient.
Dark Eldar: "DUDE, where's my HQ section" the army.
Orkz; Yeah that "Orktober" was a joke, especially sad because my first real army was orkz. Feth GW..
Snowflake Marines: See CSM, except loyalist version.
SoB: A whole update, 0 hype really, instead we get more primar(is) exemples on how to NOT balance output.
Necrons: Cries in questionable ruledesign and model release schedule.
Tau: What's an Auxxilia?
GSC: The ambush faction, can't T1 deploy.
Nids: Model release when?
FW index armies: Yeah we get it Bleighs dead, that doesn't mean that you can just now ignore his legacy by spitting on it main GW rules team. Eldar Corsairs don't exist anymore, DKoK has now 1 list and not 2 like they had before, R&H is a fiasko....
Did i forget someone?
Daemons: Yeah if you don't play Khorne or slaanesh.... meh models and wierd rules .
AM: To say Cadian models have aged somewhat badly is a understatement.
The problem is GW support their product lines differently but treat them the same.
40k is a choose your own faction system, so the games don't distinguish between the armies.
GW is a promote marines and sell them as much as possible company.
These two perspectives are at odds with one another.
No where does GW distinguish their product lines from one another to the consumer, everything is sold as if they are all equivalent.
If I were selling 3 similar cars at similar prices but only one had after sales service, parts etc, which one looks more attractive?
If GW wanted to align their business strategy with their product strategy they have a few options:
They can refocus the business strategy to align it with their product and market/invest in all their lines equally
They can rebrand their product line to match their current business strategy - basically treat 40k like space Hulk where the game is sold as "you are marines - take turns to see how much better you are at killing the baddies than your mates!"
And thus sell marines as your actual army and all the non marines as mook forces you get to vs your friends so they can use their marines.
In this scenario all non loyalist marines become cheaper, worse and simpler because they are the npcs you take turns killing.
GWs current business strategy is aligned to the latter but their product is still sold and marketed like the former.
.
Hellebore wrote: The problem is GW support their product lines differently but treat them the same.
40k is a choose your own faction system, so the games don't distinguish between the armies.
GW is a promote marines and sell them as much as possible company.
These two perspectives are at odds with one another.
No where does GW distinguish their product lines from one another to the consumer, everything is sold as if they are all equivalent.
If I were selling 3 similar cars at similar prices but only one had after sales service, parts etc, which one looks more attractive?
If GW wanted to align their business strategy with their product strategy they have a few options:
They can refocus the business strategy to align it with their product and market/invest in all their lines equally
They can rebrand their product line to match their current business strategy - basically treat 40k like space Hulk where the game is sold as "you are marines - take turns to see how much better you are at killing the baddies than your mates!"
And thus sell marines as your actual army and all the non marines as mook forces you get to vs your friends so they can use their marines.
In this scenario all non loyalist marines become cheaper, worse and simpler because they are the npcs you take turns killing.
GWs current business strategy is aligned to the latter but their product is still sold and marketed like the former.
.
Well written and accurate. Agreed on all accounts.
well, that is because of people do play xenos it is in general an army you have to face with a tournament list, and sometimes your stuff can beat a xeno armies tournament stuff.
Blood Hawk wrote: The amount of salt in this thread is insane. I personally think the new supplements for marines are great. I love playing my new RG.
Yeah of course is great if you only collect Marines
- I collect Marines AND other armies so reading about/having models for other armies is of interest and not merely being drowned in one sub factions and its many sub-sub factions would be great
Blood Hawk wrote: The amount of salt in this thread is insane. I personally think the new supplements for marines are great. I love playing my new RG.
Yeah of course is great if you only collect Marines
- I collect Marines AND other armies so reading about/having models for other armies is of interest and not merely being drowned in one sub factions and its many sub-sub factions would be great
I started collecting years ago with Tau. I own so many Tau I had to create a spreadsheet inventory of them to even know what all I had. I would love if GW released Tau supplements but if they don't it is not the end of the world. I mean I went a whole edition (5th) without a new codex for my Tau. I still had a loads of fun playing them.
Blood Hawk wrote: The amount of salt in this thread is insane. I personally think the new supplements for marines are great. I love playing my new RG.
Yeah of course is great if you only collect Marines
- I collect Marines AND other armies so reading about/having models for other armies is of interest and not merely being drowned in one sub factions and its many sub-sub factions would be great
I started collecting years ago with Tau. I own so many Tau I had to create a spreadsheet inventory of them. I would love if GW released Tau supplements but if they don't it is not the end of the world. I mean I went a whole edition (5th) without a new codex with Tau. I still had a loads of fun playing them.
Sadly seems to be zero chance of Tau supplements that examine all the non battlesuit cool stuff in the lore, or the Imperials Knights auxilary forces in Andy Clark's novels, or the myriad of Guard Regiments or Exodites or Corsairs....or so so many other things
but they keep those Marines churning out, week after week.....month after month.
Blood Hawk wrote: The amount of salt in this thread is insane. I personally think the new supplements for marines are great. I love playing my new RG.
Yeah of course is great if you only collect Marines
- I collect Marines AND other armies so reading about/having models for other armies is of interest and not merely being drowned in one sub factions and its many sub-sub factions would be great
I started collecting years ago with Tau. I own so many Tau I had to create a spreadsheet inventory of them. I would love if GW released Tau supplements but if they don't it is not the end of the world. I mean I went a whole edition (5th) without a new codex with Tau. I still had a loads of fun playing them.
Sadly seems to be zero chance of Tau supplements that examine all the non battlesuit cool stuff in the lore, or the Imperials Knights auxilary forces in Andy Clark's novels, or the myriad of Guard Regiments or Exodites or Corsairs....or so so many other things
but they keep those Marines churning out, week after week.....month after month.
That is because marines out sell all those factions. GW is just giving the market what it wants.
Blood Hawk wrote: That is because marines out sell all those factions. GW is just giving the market what it wants.
It's been discussed to death already in this thread, but to summarize: You cannot separate the sales success of Marines from the fact that they receive overwhelmingly more support in both regular releases and boxed sets, and are marketed to newcomers as the default.
Blood Hawk wrote: That is because marines out sell all those factions. GW is just giving the market what it wants.
It's been discussed to death already in this thread, but to summarize: You cannot separate the sales success of Marines from the fact that they receive overwhelmingly more support in both regular releases and boxed sets, and are marketed to newcomers as the default.
Of course not. You also can't in good faith claim that A) Marines don't outsell every other faction or B) Marketing is the sole reason products are successful.
You can make the self fulling prophecy argument with Marines and GW marketing if you want. I just don't think it is a good argument and you could never prove it anyway.
Blood Hawk wrote: That is because marines out sell all those factions. GW is just giving the market what it wants.
It's been discussed to death already in this thread, but to summarize: You cannot separate the sales success of Marines from the fact that they receive overwhelmingly more support in both regular releases and boxed sets, and are marketed to newcomers as the default.
Of course not. You also can't in good faith claim that A) Marines don't outsell every other faction or B) Marketing is the sole reason products are successful.
You can make the self fulling prophecy argument with Marines and GW marketing if you want. I just don't think it is a good argument and you could never prove it anyway.
You also can't prove the inverse either.
The only things that are true are:
GW markets marines a lot
GW does not market Xenos (of any kind) as much
GW sells marines a lot
GW does not sell Xenos (of any kind) as much
not being able to prove one thing doesn't make the opposite true - or any other theory true.
As a slight tangent - the game requires a healthy mix of armies for it to maintain interest in the community. Whether marines are 'innately' more popular or not, a dying community will impact marines sales as well.
Ergo, it behooves GW to ensure all its products are popular and supported, as they support an ecosystem that keeps marine players buying.
Any other company would see the less popular but necessary products as loss leaders, or sacrificial products. They would sell them at a lower price to try and generate more purchases, knowing that marine players are still buying tonnes of marines regardless.
If GW dropped all Xenos army prices by 10% or more, you would quickly see how much marine popularity is innate...
Blood Hawk wrote: That is because marines out sell all those factions. GW is just giving the market what it wants.
It's been discussed to death already in this thread, but to summarize: You cannot separate the sales success of Marines from the fact that they receive overwhelmingly more support in both regular releases and boxed sets, and are marketed to newcomers as the default.
Of course not. You also can't in good faith claim that A) Marines don't outsell every other faction or B) Marketing is the sole reason products are successful.
You can make the self fulling prophecy argument with Marines and GW marketing if you want. I just don't think it is a good argument and you could never prove it anyway.
You also can't prove the inverse either.
The only things that are true are:
GW markets marines a lot
GW does not market Xenos (of any kind) as much
GW sells marines a lot
GW does not sell Xenos (of any kind) as much
not being able to prove one thing doesn't make the opposite true - or any other theory true.
We can't prove it, that is true. GW's internal sales data would help quite a bit here but we don't have that. We can however observe GW's behavior as a company. GW has been promoting marines more than other factions for years. They even created 30k, a game that is almost exclusively marines vs. marines. Hell when they released AOS they added a marine style faction with the Stormcast. What is the more logical explanation here: Marines outsell other factions because GW markets them more or GW as a company looked at its own sales data over the years and realized marines are more popular and decided to promote them more because of that. GW assigned its limited resources in manpower and money to producing more content for the faction that outsold the others. That its actions over the years are in response to consumer preferences. Companies making content in response to consumer preferences is very common in the entertainment world.
If we can make then imperium everything but marines, and squash marines (squat then worse than squats were) the 40k tabletop game as a whole would thrive. Mostly off the salt of marine players, but still. Would thrive my friends. Glorious armies of various shapes and sizes, model distribution, etc. chaos marines can stay. Everyone would be happy honestly, sales would rise exponentially. And you would never see white ultra-salamander iron guard wolves. You know, the armies we smash up when we see em. With fists of course.
Kanluwen wrote: Frankly, it's too early to say "nObOdY eLsE iS gOiNg tO gEt ThEsE!1!1!".
I'm willing to bet we won't see anything like the supplement treatment for other factions. I feel so capable of such bold action based on the staggering level of releases others have gotten so far since 8th edition dropped. Adding to that the fact even chaos which got second most attention didn't even get a proper new codex and instead got their goodies in vigilis ablaze and even then wasn't to the same level and extent of just the most recent marine release. I think you're just setting yourself up for sadness and let down if you think you'll get lots of goodies from this PA release cycle.
I'd say this, keep expectations reasonable and just try and over look all the marine love bloat. I honestly feel like aside from the random blip here and there this is the norm. Small release for something not marine, with marines released every 2 to 3 weeks.
Kanluwen wrote: Frankly, it's too early to say "nObOdY eLsE iS gOiNg tO gEt ThEsE!1!1!".
I'm willing to bet we won't see anything like the supplement treatment for other factions. I feel so capable of such bold action based on the staggering level of releases others have gotten so far since 8th edition dropped. Adding to that the fact even chaos which got second most attention didn't even get a proper new codex and instead got their goodies in vigilis ablaze and even then wasn't to the same level and extent of just the most recent marine release. I think you're just setting yourself up for sadness and let down if you think you'll get lots of goodies from this PA release cycle.
I'd say this, keep expectations reasonable and just try and over look all the marine love bloat. I honestly feel like aside from the random blip here and there this is the norm. Small release for something not marine, with marines released every 2 to 3 weeks.
I counterbet, i bet csm will see them shortly before 9th and aswell in conjunction with a updated dex called 3.0 which really is just a propper 2.0 dex.
Because gw loves to nickle and dime
Kanluwen wrote: Frankly, it's too early to say "nObOdY eLsE iS gOiNg tO gEt ThEsE!1!1!".
I'm willing to bet we won't see anything like the supplement treatment for other factions. I feel so capable of such bold action based on the staggering level of releases others have gotten so far since 8th edition dropped. Adding to that the fact even chaos which got second most attention didn't even get a proper new codex and instead got their goodies in vigilis ablaze and even then wasn't to the same level and extent of just the most recent marine release. I think you're just setting yourself up for sadness and let down if you think you'll get lots of goodies from this PA release cycle.
I'd say this, keep expectations reasonable and just try and over look all the marine love bloat. I honestly feel like aside from the random blip here and there this is the norm. Small release for something not marine, with marines released every 2 to 3 weeks.
I counterbet, i bet csm will see them shortly before 9th and aswell in conjunction with a updated dex called 3.0 which really is just a propper 2.0 dex.
Because gw loves to nickle and dime
You play chaos and really dare to dream ? I mean I bet they'll put out a chaos 3.0 book, but if so I'd say it'll just be enough to make the players happy. For in a couple weeks to a month drop the 3.0 Marine codex and supplements galore again to raise the bar even higher once more. Though I believe they'll keep spoon feeding chaos usable things in many of these PA books just to try and give as many as possible a reason to buy them and keep the slow money churn going.
my gut feeling is they'll slowly dole out chaos stuff via Pyskic awakening, we're already hearing rumors of it. Black Legion already has rules content roughly on par with what the new Marines supplements give, missing only the super doctrine. thats proably the shape we can expect chaos legions to take. if we're REALLY lucky they'll FAQ some new legion rules. Some are IMHO pretty obvious, Iron Warriors should be a 6 up FNP combined with the imperial fists ignore cover
Kanluwen wrote: Frankly, it's too early to say "nObOdY eLsE iS gOiNg tO gEt ThEsE!1!1!".
I'm willing to bet we won't see anything like the supplement treatment for other factions. I feel so capable of such bold action based on the staggering level of releases others have gotten so far since 8th edition dropped. Adding to that the fact even chaos which got second most attention didn't even get a proper new codex and instead got their goodies in vigilis ablaze and even then wasn't to the same level and extent of just the most recent marine release. I think you're just setting yourself up for sadness and let down if you think you'll get lots of goodies from this PA release cycle.
I'd say this, keep expectations reasonable and just try and over look all the marine love bloat. I honestly feel like aside from the random blip here and there this is the norm. Small release for something not marine, with marines released every 2 to 3 weeks.
I counterbet, i bet csm will see them shortly before 9th and aswell in conjunction with a updated dex called 3.0 which really is just a propper 2.0 dex.
Because gw loves to nickle and dime
You play chaos and really dare to dream ? I mean I bet they'll put out a chaos 3.0 book, but if so I'd say it'll just be enough to make the players happy. For in a couple weeks to a month drop the 3.0 Marine codex and supplements galore again to raise the bar even higher once more. Though I believe they'll keep spoon feeding chaos usable things in many of these PA books just to try and give as many as possible a reason to buy them and keep the slow money churn going.
I don't dare dream, i am just cynically. F.E. GW has a somewhat common trend for Chaos as a faction as a whole to update shortly before the new edition invalidates or not update propperly at all.
Also i am cynic.
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BrianDavion wrote: my gut feeling is they'll slowly dole out chaos stuff via Pyskic awakening, we're already hearing rumors of it. Black Legion already has rules content roughly on par with what the new Marines supplements give, missing only the super doctrine. thats proably the shape we can expect chaos legions to take. if we're REALLY lucky they'll FAQ some new legion rules. Some are IMHO pretty obvious, Iron Warriors should be a 6 up FNP combined with the imperial fists ignore cover
How is the BL supplement in any way similar with the marine supplements?
How is the BL supplement in any way similar with the marine supplements?
It isn't. it lacks legion specific psykic powers, only has 8 new strats instead of 16, it does have the same number of warlord traits and the same number of relics (it just lacks special issue war egar) my guess is the BL vigilius supplement is about what chaos can expect instead. it's clsoeeneugh that GW'll be happy and think it's equivilant
How is the BL supplement in any way similar with the marine supplements?
It isn't. it lacks legion specific psykic powers, only has 8 new strats instead of 16, it does have the same number of warlord traits and the same number of relics (it just lacks special issue war egar) my guess is the BL vigilius supplement is about what chaos can expect instead. it's clsoeeneugh that GW'll be happy and think it's equivilant
How is the BL supplement in any way similar with the marine supplements?
It isn't. it lacks legion specific psykic powers, only has 8 new strats instead of 16, it does have the same number of warlord traits and the same number of relics (it just lacks special issue war egar) my guess is the BL vigilius supplement is about what chaos can expect instead. it's clsoeeneugh that GW'll be happy and think it's equivilant
Yeah that sounds about right. Sadly.
honestly, if it the stuff provided is good it'll be eneugh, the black legion stuff isn't bad. and allows you to play hero hammer. speaking as someone who has both a space marine and black legion army, I'd like to see some sort of doctrine system added onto CSMs (call them dark blessings?) but I'd actually beyond that be willing to surrender super doctrines as I'm more inclined to be cool with running chaos soup.
TedNugent wrote: It's not just Marines, it's specifically vanilla marines.
DA, BA, Grey Knights, and SW are all stuck in the same fail camp right now.
They even refused to extend the new Chaplain litanies, even post-FAQ, for no apparent reason at all.
most likely because GW plans on giving them their own unique Litanies.
meanwhile dark angels, blood angels and space wolves got the full new model wave release. (in fact they've gotten their own unique builds for leuitenants that vanilla marines don't. apparently only dark angels primaris Lts have figured out how to use a plasma pistol)
I have a few thousand points of Flesh Tearer's. And...With the coming of the Primaris Marines, sure. I've bought a few. I even own two Loyalist halfs of Shadowspear. But I've found myself more engaged with my Eldar. And more and more. My Sons of Cretacia, just kind of chill on my shelf gathering dust. I feel, that BA and sucessors are a 'test' for what will work and won't work and then the final product is the standard SM book. At least that's how it was in past editions.
Shadowbrand wrote: I have a few thousand points of Flesh Tearer's. And...With the coming of the Primaris Marines, sure. I've bought a few. I even own two Loyalist halfs of Shadowspear. But I've found myself more engaged with my Eldar. And more and more. My Sons of Cretacia, just kind of chill on my shelf gathering dust. I feel, that BA and sucessors are a 'test' for what will work and won't work and then the final product is the standard SM book. At least that's how it was in past editions.
a bit of a strange sentiment considering that Blood angels have come out after codex space marines ever since I've been playing 40k.
I brought into the rhetoric GW fed us that things would be different in 8th. That they'd listen to the fanbase. That they were going to spread some of the love of new models. That they would balance models and factions as best they could, rather than on sales figures. It is starting to seem that this was all a load of hot air.
Don't think GW actually said any of this, it's more a case of certain parts of the community reading between the lines, hearing what they wanted to hear, then getting mad that it didn't materialise. Look at the "Orktober" debacle last year, which was the exact same thing.
Tbh, it's ever been thus; Space Marines have always been the primary focus of 40K, because that's what sells. I think there's an argument for this being a self-fulfilling prophecy (i.e. SM sell better than other factions, so they get more resources allocated, which makes them a more appealing faction, which means SM sell better than… etc, etc) but as long as people keep buying the new Space Marine hotness, GW have no disincentive to carry on as they were before.
Also, if you ignore the fact their Space Marines, the number of model releases is kinda down to having to build Primaris as a faction from the ground up, so of course they're going to get more releases than factions that have a lot of the bases covered.
Personally, I think the whole Primaris business is super-lame (models and lore), but I think it's nice that there's new SM rules that Classic Marines can benefit from too. Tbh, for me, the content hose largely spewing out stuff I'm not interested in for a bit is quite welcome, as it means I can just stop paying attention for a bit and catch up on my massive backlog of Orks, GsC and Guard stuff I need to get painted.
I brought into the rhetoric GW fed us that things would be different in 8th. That they'd listen to the fanbase. That they were going to spread some of the love of new models. That they would balance models and factions as best they could, rather than on sales figures. It is starting to seem that this was all a load of hot air.
Don't think GW actually said any of this, it's more a case of certain parts of the community reading between the lines, hearing what they wanted to hear, then getting mad that it didn't materialise. Look at the "Orktober" debacle last year, which was the exact same thing.
Tbh, it's ever been thus; Space Marines have always been the primary focus of 40K, because that's what sells. I think there's an argument for this being a self-fulfilling prophecy (i.e. SM sell better than other factions, so they get more resources allocated, which makes them a more appealing faction, which means SM sell better than… etc, etc) but as long as people keep buying the new Space Marine hotness, GW have no disincentive to carry on as they were before.
Also, if you ignore the fact their Space Marines, the number of model releases is kinda down to having to build Primaris as a faction from the ground up, so of course they're going to get more releases than factions that have a lot of the bases covered.
Personally, I think the whole Primaris business is super-lame (models and lore), but I think it's nice that there's new SM rules that Classic Marines can benefit from too. Tbh, for me, the content hose largely spewing out stuff I'm not interested in for a bit is quite welcome, as it means I can just stop paying attention for a bit and catch up on my massive backlog of Orks, GsC and Guard stuff I need to get painted.
You know what's sad:
GW got the feedback and the wakeupcall in the form of the sisters demand.
Yet they don't care.
TedNugent wrote: It's not just Marines, it's specifically vanilla marines.
DA, BA, Grey Knights, and SW are all stuck in the same fail camp right now.
They even refused to extend the new Chaplain litanies, even post-FAQ, for no apparent reason at all.
most likely because GW plans on giving them their own unique Litanies.
meanwhile dark angels, blood angels and space wolves got the full new model wave release. (in fact they've gotten their own unique builds for leuitenants that vanilla marines don't. apparently only dark angels primaris Lts have figured out how to use a plasma pistol)
Why is it you figure GW has these lofty plans ? People keep saying how they are apparently planning all their Master plans out there decades in the making but with all this planning they could find a better way to ramp up the power curve than to smash new marines with even more powerful supplements ? Drop them all without a day 1 faq to clear up the OP issues ?
While I believe they have models years in the making as they need that for the creation and distribution process. It feels like the rules don't get that much consideration. Also they don't seem to wrap their heads around a stop gap fix for the mean time. Like giving the other marine chapters access to the new litanies would be a nice stop gap fix, regardless of what their eventual consideration will be.
Same as why keep in the SiA exception to Deathwatch bolter discipline with all these new rules regular marines have now, they should remove that exception but they won't and I don't want to hear " They have a plan " as I doubt it. Stop gap fixes are a thing and they can be used to make things better till the proper fix is in place. It isn't hard and doesn't cost them a thing aside from a little time to place it in a FAQ.
There always feels to be little rhyme to their reasons and just saying " They have a plan " is little to hang your hat on as you don't know how long this plan will take, if they have any at all.
I brought into the rhetoric GW fed us that things would be different in 8th. That they'd listen to the fanbase. That they were going to spread some of the love of new models. That they would balance models and factions as best they could, rather than on sales figures. It is starting to seem that this was all a load of hot air.
Don't think GW actually said any of this, it's more a case of certain parts of the community reading between the lines, hearing what they wanted to hear, then getting mad that it didn't materialise. Look at the "Orktober" debacle last year, which was the exact same thing.
Tbh, it's ever been thus; Space Marines have always been the primary focus of 40K, because that's what sells. I think there's an argument for this being a self-fulfilling prophecy (i.e. SM sell better than other factions, so they get more resources allocated, which makes them a more appealing faction, which means SM sell better than… etc, etc) but as long as people keep buying the new Space Marine hotness, GW have no disincentive to carry on as they were before.
Also, if you ignore the fact their Space Marines, the number of model releases is kinda down to having to build Primaris as a faction from the ground up, so of course they're going to get more releases than factions that have a lot of the bases covered.
Personally, I think the whole Primaris business is super-lame (models and lore), but I think it's nice that there's new SM rules that Classic Marines can benefit from too. Tbh, for me, the content hose largely spewing out stuff I'm not interested in for a bit is quite welcome, as it means I can just stop paying attention for a bit and catch up on my massive backlog of Orks, GsC and Guard stuff I need to get painted.
GW did precisely say they'd listen to the customers, just like they said they knew that bloat and out of control burn and churn was a big cause for 6th and 7th death. They said it would be a different GW, we didn't all dream up their false promises and claims. Some fans I believe like to just dismiss valid complaints of blatant lies, double speak and talking our of both sides of their mouth though. If they aren't back tracking on things they said, they are being awfully vague to try and sell junk no one needs, like the small rule book that was printed out of date and for no real reason. Trying their hardest to hype up a piece of trash product in the hopes some poor schmucks would buy it and waste their money then make the post on it unseen to let it quietly die. These are not things a " good " company does. They are just as bad as they ever were and the best PR they did was putting some smiles out there and replying to comments so people feel like they care and will defend them. with such force.
I'm not saying they are pure evil, but they are not our friends and they do lie quite often and without shame.
a bit of a strange sentiment considering that Blood angels have come out after codex space marines ever since I've been playing 40k.
Maybe I just remember incorrectly. But I remember the 5th ed BA update coming, then the Wolf one. Before 6th came about.
Given a long enough time frame, that'll be correct here too. Though we know pretty well neither of those books will be dropping within at least the next two months. I'd say they won't drop in January either with the sisters most likely taking up all the spot light or they should be anyways. So, yeah eventually they'll drop those books, question is within how many months ? Not before 3 months at least which for all that time they could have had a stop gap measure in place that cost them 0 real effort but would have felt cool to be thought of for those armies.
TedNugent wrote: It's not just Marines, it's specifically vanilla marines.
DA, BA, Grey Knights, and SW are all stuck in the same fail camp right now.
They even refused to extend the new Chaplain litanies, even post-FAQ, for no apparent reason at all.
They should have given ALL marines the doctorines etc as a faq - otherwise we have to have yet more super special articles in White Dwarf, Warhammer Community etc on these over hyped and hugely bloated sub-sub factions.
TedNugent wrote: It's not just Marines, it's specifically vanilla marines.
DA, BA, Grey Knights, and SW are all stuck in the same fail camp right now.
They even refused to extend the new Chaplain litanies, even post-FAQ, for no apparent reason at all.
They should have given ALL marines the doctorines etc as a faq - otherwise we a faction I don't play might get a codex and we can't have that!.
fixed that for you.
Except he does play those factions. He has been very clear on that point repeatedly, but it seems you don't care to read his posts. (The only reason I know is because he's said it so many dang times in several threads about marines) I'm only mentioning this because it bothers me to see the same false accusation fly every time I enter threads like these.
So long as people can put a positive spin on things, they will for GW. I don't really get why when all we are to them is money that walks but eh, it is what it is.
TedNugent wrote: It's not just Marines, it's specifically vanilla marines.
DA, BA, Grey Knights, and SW are all stuck in the same fail camp right now.
They even refused to extend the new Chaplain litanies, even post-FAQ, for no apparent reason at all.
most likely because GW plans on giving them their own unique Litanies.
meanwhile dark angels, blood angels and space wolves got the full new model wave release. (in fact they've gotten their own unique builds for leuitenants that vanilla marines don't. apparently only dark angels primaris Lts have figured out how to use a plasma pistol)
And GK get nothing. Also with the number of codex in the game right now, one could have to wait 12 months or more for a rule update, and that is assuming a w40k codex or supplement every second month or so.
TedNugent wrote: It's not just Marines, it's specifically vanilla marines.
DA, BA, Grey Knights, and SW are all stuck in the same fail camp right now.
They even refused to extend the new Chaplain litanies, even post-FAQ, for no apparent reason at all.
most likely because GW plans on giving them their own unique Litanies.
meanwhile dark angels, blood angels and space wolves got the full new model wave release. (in fact they've gotten their own unique builds for leuitenants that vanilla marines don't. apparently only dark angels primaris Lts have figured out how to use a plasma pistol)
And GK get nothing. Also with the number of codex in the game right now, one could have to wait 12 months or more for a rule update, and that is assuming a w40k codex or supplement every second month or so.
They could and should have done a general "marine" update with the new codex and the seemingly endless additional releases, as you say its not as if they are all going to get Codexes yet again ( at least I hope not!)
Hell they could have even done a Supplement with them all in - been complaining but at least it would have been done.
The DA Primaris Lt being the only one with a Plasma Pistol is a great symbol of the problem with pretending Chapters are so very different and that most units would not have annaologies in other Chapters. But GW is on the opposite path to consilidation for the Marines and consquently the game and ALL other factions suffer for it.
My mom always says that it doesn't matter what you should have done, or what you wanted to do. What matter is what you did. We are past the codex cycle in 8th, and started a new one.
Now I don't have enough expiriance to know if this means there is or isn't going to be a 9th ed or just an 8.5 ed. In the end the names are probably pointless. To me what means is what GW did over the 2 years in 8th, specially to my faction, because it is the thing I have to play with. And from their treatment of GK it doesn't look as if GW is doing a good job, in fact it looks more as if they are not doing any job at all. GK don't even have new 8th ed lore. It is as if they stoped existing as soon as gulliman came to terra.
And codex don't matter much in the end, if they are bad. What if GW gets "scared" by people reaction to doctrins, and they are right now working, I hope, on a GK one. And in 9-12 months the new codex GK comes out with a nice nerfed doctrin, nerfed stratagems and unit interaction. But the new adjusted book still has to play vs the good books, that came out when GW went ham with rules.
Ain't even a GK problem to be honest. Just look at csm 2.0 and marines 2.0. That is two books so different they maybe writen for two different editions of w40k.
TedNugent wrote: It's not just Marines, it's specifically vanilla marines.
DA, BA, Grey Knights, and SW are all stuck in the same fail camp right now.
They even refused to extend the new Chaplain litanies, even post-FAQ, for no apparent reason at all.
most likely because GW plans on giving them their own unique Litanies.
meanwhile dark angels, blood angels and space wolves got the full new model wave release. (in fact they've gotten their own unique builds for leuitenants that vanilla marines don't. apparently only dark angels primaris Lts have figured out how to use a plasma pistol)
And GK get nothing. Also with the number of codex in the game right now, one could have to wait 12 months or more for a rule update, and that is assuming a w40k codex or supplement every second month or so.
They could and should have done a general "marine" update with the new codex and the seemingly endless additional releases, as you say its not as if they are all going to get Codexes yet again ( at least I hope not!)
Hell they could have even done a Supplement with them all in - been complaining but at least it would have been done.
The DA Primaris Lt being the only one with a Plasma Pistol is a great symbol of the problem with pretending Chapters are so very different and that most units would not have annaologies in other Chapters. But GW is on the opposite path to consilidation for the Marines and consquently the game and ALL other factions suffer for it.
I feel this may get worse as they focus completely on Plastic. If they cannot do smaller runs for other armys. Needing to justify the plastic production, then it may be a case that even popular armys cannot justify more than minimum support.
This is where i wish they had used Forge world for when dealing with 40k. right now a new charecter mini in plastic is super expensive here anyway.
But guys, they have a plan, this is all part of a GW master plan of unified marine power for all. We just have to wait and see and if it doesn't work out. They never said it, we were just assured by others it was part of a plan. It's been generations in the making, I swear.
TedNugent wrote: It's not just Marines, it's specifically vanilla marines.
DA, BA, Grey Knights, and SW are all stuck in the same fail camp right now.
They even refused to extend the new Chaplain litanies, even post-FAQ, for no apparent reason at all.
most likely because GW plans on giving them their own unique Litanies.
meanwhile dark angels, blood angels and space wolves got the full new model wave release. (in fact they've gotten their own unique builds for leuitenants that vanilla marines don't. apparently only dark angels primaris Lts have figured out how to use a plasma pistol)
And GK get nothing. Also with the number of codex in the game right now, one could have to wait 12 months or more for a rule update, and that is assuming a w40k codex or supplement every second month or so.
They could and should have done a general "marine" update with the new codex and the seemingly endless additional releases, as you say its not as if they are all going to get Codexes yet again ( at least I hope not!)
Hell they could have even done a Supplement with them all in - been complaining but at least it would have been done.
The DA Primaris Lt being the only one with a Plasma Pistol is a great symbol of the problem with pretending Chapters are so very different and that most units would not have annaologies in other Chapters. But GW is on the opposite path to consilidation for the Marines and consquently the game and ALL other factions suffer for it.
I feel this may get worse as they focus completely on Plastic. If they cannot do smaller runs for other armys. Needing to justify the plastic production, then it may be a case that even popular armys cannot justify more than minimum support.
This is where i wish they had used Forge world for when dealing with 40k. right now a new charecter mini in plastic is super expensive here anyway.
True - we do have the situaton where not only GW but FW has a massive production and catalogue of Marines and very little else.
TedNugent wrote: It's not just Marines, it's specifically vanilla marines.
DA, BA, Grey Knights, and SW are all stuck in the same fail camp right now.
They even refused to extend the new Chaplain litanies, even post-FAQ, for no apparent reason at all.
most likely because GW plans on giving them their own unique Litanies.
meanwhile dark angels, blood angels and space wolves got the full new model wave release. (in fact they've gotten their own unique builds for leuitenants that vanilla marines don't. apparently only dark angels primaris Lts have figured out how to use a plasma pistol)
And GK get nothing. Also with the number of codex in the game right now, one could have to wait 12 months or more for a rule update, and that is assuming a w40k codex or supplement every second month or so.
They could and should have done a general "marine" update with the new codex and the seemingly endless additional releases, as you say its not as if they are all going to get Codexes yet again ( at least I hope not!)
Hell they could have even done a Supplement with them all in - been complaining but at least it would have been done.
The DA Primaris Lt being the only one with a Plasma Pistol is a great symbol of the problem with pretending Chapters are so very different and that most units would not have annaologies in other Chapters. But GW is on the opposite path to consilidation for the Marines and consquently the game and ALL other factions suffer for it.
I feel this may get worse as they focus completely on Plastic. If they cannot do smaller runs for other armys. Needing to justify the plastic production, then it may be a case that even popular armys cannot justify more than minimum support.
This is where i wish they had used Forge world for when dealing with 40k. right now a new charecter mini in plastic is super expensive here anyway.
True - we do have the situaton where not only GW but FW has a massive production and catalogue of Marines and very little else.
that's mostly because forgeworld has shifted priorities mind you. focusing mostly on the horus heresy and specialist games. If you discount Heresy stuff that just happens to have 40k rules to increase sales, I think forge world has produced maybe a half dozen kits total in the past 15 years.
TedNugent wrote: It's not just Marines, it's specifically vanilla marines.
DA, BA, Grey Knights, and SW are all stuck in the same fail camp right now.
They even refused to extend the new Chaplain litanies, even post-FAQ, for no apparent reason at all.
most likely because GW plans on giving them their own unique Litanies.
meanwhile dark angels, blood angels and space wolves got the full new model wave release. (in fact they've gotten their own unique builds for leuitenants that vanilla marines don't. apparently only dark angels primaris Lts have figured out how to use a plasma pistol)
And GK get nothing. Also with the number of codex in the game right now, one could have to wait 12 months or more for a rule update, and that is assuming a w40k codex or supplement every second month or so.
They could and should have done a general "marine" update with the new codex and the seemingly endless additional releases, as you say its not as if they are all going to get Codexes yet again ( at least I hope not!)
Hell they could have even done a Supplement with them all in - been complaining but at least it would have been done.
The DA Primaris Lt being the only one with a Plasma Pistol is a great symbol of the problem with pretending Chapters are so very different and that most units would not have annaologies in other Chapters. But GW is on the opposite path to consilidation for the Marines and consquently the game and ALL other factions suffer for it.
I feel this may get worse as they focus completely on Plastic. If they cannot do smaller runs for other armys. Needing to justify the plastic production, then it may be a case that even popular armys cannot justify more than minimum support.
This is where i wish they had used Forge world for when dealing with 40k. right now a new charecter mini in plastic is super expensive here anyway.
True - we do have the situaton where not only GW but FW has a massive production and catalogue of Marines and very little else.
that's mostly because forgeworld has shifted priorities mind you. focusing mostly on the horus heresy and specialist games. If you discount Heresy stuff that just happens to have 40k rules to increase sales, I think forge world has produced maybe a half dozen kits total in the past 15 years.
Half a dozen special kits for one Sub-faction?
But all those doezens of "30k" kits are available for our Marine armies - why should that be ignored when it adds to the massive range of models available for one Super sub-faction of the Imperium???
Whereas every other faction gets nothing? The only other ones I can think of is Knights and the Adeptus Custodes which they did but for some reason absolutely will not do for Sisters of Silence and Ad Mech.
Why does GW/FW have this issue with cross selling - they are better than they used to be with finally managing to have rules for various different games - especially in AOS. Sadly FW don't bother with AOS anymore.
Necromunda gangs could have had 40k rules for use by both Imperials and Chaos as generic "gangs" which show up in various lore.
Why do they only produce stuff for the Marines - all it does is promote the self fulffiling prophercy of "Dude marines sells - cos thats mainly what we make, so lets just make more Marines" - arguable FW is growing worse at this than GW.
