So there is apparently a rumor that cult marines will go up to 2 wounds (rubrics , noise marines etc). If that would be true do you guys think it will be enough to straight up fix them?
From a WE aspect, if say not entirely. If they give us a better way to get into combat instead of rhinos or other transport. Also a deny overwatch would be stellar. But, 2W is a nice start.
Also, if I remember correctly. Rubrics were 2w back in 4th/5th.
Biasn wrote: So there is apparently a rumor that cult marines will go up to 2 wounds (rubrics , noise marines etc). If that would be true do you guys think it will be enough to straight up fix them?
Uh....yeah, as a Tsons player my army would MOST DEFINITELY be very strong if rubrics had 2w (and presumably scarabs had 3? Because otherwise scarabs are gonna be pretty laughable.)
Rubrics and PM probably proft the most out of that.
Noise marines have other issues, like basically not wanting to use noise weapons.
And khorne berzerkers get a tad tougher, which is nice but frankly they either die in the enemy shooting phase or kill everything they touch so nope, they are not fixed.
Further, If Chosen would get that aswell that would probably fix them. (maybee even bump possesed to 3 but that would probably be slightly excessive.)
It would probably make them about as pts efficient as Primaris. Zerkers would benefit the most IMO, Noise Marines the least, Rubrics and Plague Marines would both become a lot better but not as much better as Zerkers. But if Chaos got better Chapter Tactics or non-Soup benefits in addition to 2 wounds they'd be even more OP than SMIMO.
Don't get your hopes up I really doubt they'd double the wounds characteristic of a non-Primaris unit.
More wounds is always good IF it doesn't come with a big price hike. It would definitely make sense for chosen.
But nah. Gw ain't giving that to anything but primaris. Just hope for good a good "vigilus " style treatment in pa2 as that's probably all we're getting.
Jidmah wrote: 2W plague marines would be awesome. No more fielding cultists or pox walkers unless I want to.
Absolutely, my mind is lurching into plaguemarine spam with blight haulers. Out of all the cult marines PM's would be the big winners due to disgustingly resilient.
If this also passed on to the terminator equivalents then blightlords become really good.
None of this will help much in the loyalist matchup.
Jidmah wrote: 2W plague marines would be awesome. No more fielding cultists or pox walkers unless I want to.
Absolutely, my mind is lurching into plaguemarine spam with blight haulers. Out of all the cult marines PM's would be the big winners due to disgustingly resilient.
If this also passed on to the terminator equivalents then blightlords become really good.
None of this will help much in the loyalist matchup.
Alpha legion Plague marines?
Hell, that would be disgusting to move.
Nithaniel wrote: Absolutely, my mind is lurching into plaguemarine spam with blight haulers. Out of all the cult marines PM's would be the big winners due to disgustingly resilient.
If this also passed on to the terminator equivalents then blightlords become really good.
T5 also is a bit of protection against most D2 weapons, as those tend to be S8 or S9 and won't be wounding on 2s that way.
Not Online!!! wrote:Alpha legion Plague marines? Hell, that would be disgusting to move.
Eh, plague marines barely do anything when they don't get to use Arch Contaminator and Inexorable Advance, plus they still aren't awesome in combat, anything with decent AP and at least S5 will crush them.
Not Online!!! wrote:Alpha legion Plague marines?
Hell, that would be disgusting to move.
Eh, plague marines barely do anything when they don't get to use Arch Contaminator and Inexorable Advance, plus they still aren't awesome in combat, anything with decent AP and at least S5 will crush them.
With hateful assault the flail on PM's is still ok if you can get re-rolls and arch contaminator can make them solid.
Then they are already undercosted, a t5 model with two saves should cost at least 30pts, without weapons. It would be comperable in resiliance to a termintor.
Same with 1ksons, tougher then a regular marine, with normal smite, and special ammo for free, should be at least 21 pts. Probably more.
Karol wrote: Aren't cult marines a little too cheap to have 2 wounds each?
Maybe by a point or two. Primaris marines tend to be ~18 points, while cult marines are 16.
Several of the cults also have not insignificant additional costs due to wargear pricing.
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Karol wrote: Then they are already undercosted, a t5 model with two saves should cost at least 30pts, without weapons. It would be comperable in resiliance to a termintor.
Same with 1ksons, tougher then a regular marine, with normal smite, and special ammo for free, should be at least 21 pts. Probably more.
Rubrics dont get normal site, and their special ammo isnt free.
a 5 man intercessor is 85 points 2w each (30" 4 -1 1 bolters and free stalker bolt rifle (4 -2 2) if you want it and granade lunchers for 1 point) and they have 2 attacks each in melee (3 if veteran)
a 5 man of Rubric marines if 96 points 1w each (4 24" -2 1 bolters + 1mw smite that might blow the squod up on perils) 1 attack each + all is dust which while good it's definitely not worth 5w more on the squod
nop definitely cult marines are not nearly undercosted compared to primaris
Karol wrote: Then they are already undercosted, a t5 model with two saves should cost at least 30pts, without weapons. It would be comperable in resiliance to a termintor.
Same with 1ksons, tougher then a regular marine, with normal smite, and special ammo for free, should be at least 21 pts. Probably more.
And termies/tacs are reaaaaaally bad. So why not make atleast the cults playable?
deTox91 wrote: a 5 man intercessor is 85 points 2w each (30" 4 -1 1 bolters and free stalker bolt rifle (4 -2 2) if you want it and granade lunchers for 1 point) and they have 2 attacks each in melee (3 if veteran)
a 5 man of Rubric marines if 96 points 1w each without upgrades (4 24" -2 1 bolters + 1mw smite that might blow the squod up on perils) 1 attack each
nop definitely cult marines are not nearly undercosted compared to primaris
You did leave off the all is dust rule, +1 to all saves vs D1 weapons is very nice.
They also get the soul reaper cannon with some nice AP and they ignore the penalty for moving and firing it.
Karol wrote: Then they are already undercosted, a t5 model with two saves should cost at least 30pts, without weapons. It would be comperable in resiliance to a termintor.
Same with 1ksons, tougher then a regular marine, with normal smite, and special ammo for free, should be at least 21 pts. Probably more.
A Space Marine Terminator is 34 points with a Storm Bolter and Powerfist.
Now for some math. HtK stands for "Hits to Kill," T is Terminator, PM is Plague Marine.
So, a little math later, one can see there's basically no weapon that a 1-wound Plague Marine is more durable to than a Terminator. So you really want to cost Plague Marines as just shy of the price of a Terminator that has more attacks at a better profile in close combat, twice as much shooting, AND more durable?
Edit: That ~ indicates some rough math. I used 11/10 as a multiplier for the FNP on a d6 damage weapon-probably overestimating the durability increase, but even with that, it's still not as durable.
Karol wrote: Then they are already undercosted, a t5 model with two saves should cost at least 30pts, without weapons. It would be comperable in resiliance to a termintor.
Same with 1ksons, tougher then a regular marine, with normal smite, and special ammo for free, should be at least 21 pts. Probably more.
not every army needs to be at the same level as grek knights, karol. The cult marines as they are right now are already underperforming compared to other options.
deTox91 wrote: a 5 man intercessor is 85 points 2w each (30" 4 -1 1 bolters and free stalker bolt rifle (4 -2 2) if you want it and granade lunchers for 1 point) and they have 2 attacks each in melee (3 if veteran)
a 5 man of Rubric marines if 96 points 1w each without upgrades (4 24" -2 1 bolters + 1mw smite that might blow the squod up on perils) 1 attack each
nop definitely cult marines are not nearly undercosted compared to primaris
You did leave off the all is dust rule, +1 to all saves vs D1 weapons is very nice.
They also get the soul reaper cannon with some nice AP and they ignore the penalty for moving and firing it.
you got me before the edit, added the all is dust in, while for the soul reaper cannon I wouldn't count it as a "plus", it can be taken only in 10 man squods which are not a smart move as you might lose almost 20~ points models to moral (no "and they shell know no fear" for rerolls as SM do) and it costs 10 points just the reaper cannon (heavy 4 5 -3 1) making the 10 man squod cost 194 points compared to 170 of intercessors
deTox91 wrote: a 5 man intercessor is 85 points 2w each (30" 4 -1 1 bolters and free stalker bolt rifle (4 -2 2) if you want it and granade lunchers for 1 point) and they have 2 attacks each in melee (3 if veteran)
a 5 man of Rubric marines if 96 points 1w each without upgrades (4 24" -2 1 bolters + 1mw smite that might blow the squod up on perils) 1 attack each
nop definitely cult marines are not nearly undercosted compared to primaris
You did leave off the all is dust rule, +1 to all saves vs D1 weapons is very nice.
They also get the soul reaper cannon with some nice AP and they ignore the penalty for moving and firing it.
pumping them to 2W would make them be prime targets got D2 weapons. people would shoot bolters at other stuff.
They only get access to the soulreaper cannon in a squad of 10 since the codex dropped, meaning you can't fill detachment slots easily because youre not playing with MSUs.
also you can't take it in 5 man squads only on 10 (moral issues)
Always forget about that, which should communicate how often those are (not) taken.
I always forget about it(as do a lot of the people I play with) because we either kill so few models in a turn that they don’t take one, or wipe out the unit, or the nids are synapse and just laugh when they lose 10 gaunts.
I've said from the beginning of 8E that ALL Marines should have been 2W/2A base (and give Primaris something else like S5/T5).
But since that isn't going to happen this edition (or the next probably), bumping Cult Marines (including Chosen) would be a good start. Even with just a 1-2ppm increase it would still be welcome and give Chaos Marines of all colors a true Primaris equivalent.
Although I'm actually surprised Chaos Primaris haven't become a thing yet. Nothing in their fluff suggests that they are immune to corruption and regular Marine Chapters turn Renegade from time to time.
Galef wrote: I've said from the beginning of 8E that ALL Marines should have been 2W/2A base (and give Primaris something else like S5/T5).
But since that isn't going to happen this edition (or the next probably), bumping Cult Marines (including Chosen) would be a good start. Even with just a 1-2ppm increase it would still be welcome and give Chaos Marines of all colors a true Primaris equivalent.
Although I'm actually surprised Chaos Primaris haven't become a thing yet. Nothing in their fluff suggests that they are immune to corruption and regular Marine Chapters turn Renegade from time to time.
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I think it's most likely because GW basically sells two different types of product, one driven by nostalgia to existing customers, and one pointed outwards, aiming to attract new customers.
The difference between the recent CSM release and the Primaris release is a great example of those two strategies side by side in action. Nostalgia products are very carefully aimed to not piss off existing whale consumers, the consumer is intended to buy 1-2 kits of each new thing so repeated poseability is not a concern, but keeping things compatible and not tweak on the forumla too hard is tantamount. Innovation should be just enough to get a purchase, but not enough to alienate that existing consumer with an idea in his head of what the product is.
Primaris Marines change foundational aspects of what a Space Marine is and (most importantly, honestly) how they look. All their design changes are intended to make them look more familiar and appealing to a non-40k player, and they are designed with the assumption that a person buying in does not have an existing collection, so all the major releases are self-contained and designed to work with each other instead of other existing models like the Master of Possession, Greater Possessed or Discolord were. You get the Shadowspear box set? Your special librarian works with the existing models in shadowspear. Their rules are also designed to ideally have no "wrong" way to put your kit together - there should be nothing in the box that is a potential "trap" for new players, no incongruous weapon options you can glue together accidentally, no super expensive pointless sergeant upgrades that are a waste of points...at least, not in the basic box. There's a reason all the powerfists, power weapons, plasma pistols, etc that are basically nostalgia options for existing players are on separated upgrade sprues.
Karol wrote: Then they are already undercosted, a t5 model with two saves should cost at least 30pts, without weapons. It would be comperable in resiliance to a termintor.
Same with 1ksons, tougher then a regular marine, with normal smite, and special ammo for free, should be at least 21 pts. Probably more.
Only if they are painted silver
You might want to have a look at IH interceptors for what you get for 30 points, and those don't exactly see a lot of play.
I think what you mean by "Hits to kill" is "number of hits so that the average number of wound is 1". It's a very natural way of thinking, but, while harder to computer, "Number of hits so that you have a 90% chance of killing" is more interesting. (change 90% for value you consider appropriate)
Galef wrote: I've said from the beginning of 8E that ALL Marines should have been 2W/2A base (and give Primaris something else like S5/T5).-
That gives some serious issues I find compared to a lot of other choices, I'm very glad Primaris aren't S5/T5! My Tyranid warriors already suck in comparison to Primaris marines, alongside so many other supposedly 'tough' infantry units point for point. (Necrons, Tyranids and so on).
Chosen/cult marines would be amazing with 2w a piece, hell if any marine deserves it, Plague and Ruberic marines especially since Plague marines are mostly expendable regenerating mass and Ruberics literally have no weakpoint that isn't being ripped apart.
Chosen getting 2W to me makes sense, especially since these are marines holding favour of chaos and extra ruinous powers can easily equal if not surpass the effects Cawl made for sheer killiness, issue is now what do we do with Terminators and Possessed? If Plague and Ruberic marines go 2W then their terminators would need to be bumped up to 3 and things start to get messy fast.
Would still love to see it, but I could easily see it veering into either 'too good' or 'too bad' very quickly!
Two wounds would be a huge deal, and would need a couple points extra-cost for sure. As neat as it would be, it would make Rubrics, etc. extremely good. Two wounds on a basic model is a tremendous asset.
Dunno... if they increase the points with it i would rather have rubrics stay at 1 wound and shave a couple points off. They just aren't really worth anything and are worse than alot of other troops.
Galef wrote: I've said from the beginning of 8E that ALL Marines should have been 2W/2A base (and give Primaris something else like S5/T5).-
That gives some serious issues I find compared to a lot of other choices, I'm very glad Primaris aren't S5/T5! My Tyranid warriors already suck in comparison to Primaris marines, alongside so many other supposedly 'tough' infantry units point for point. (Necrons, Tyranids and so on).
Chosen/cult marines would be amazing with 2w a piece, hell if any marine deserves it, Plague and Ruberic marines especially since Plague marines are mostly expendable regenerating mass and Ruberics literally have no weakpoint that isn't being ripped apart.
Chosen getting 2W to me makes sense, especially since these are marines holding favour of chaos and extra ruinous powers can easily equal if not surpass the effects Cawl made for sheer killiness, issue is now what do we do with Terminators and Possessed? If Plague and Ruberic marines go 2W then their terminators would need to be bumped up to 3 and things start to get messy fast.
Would still love to see it, but I could easily see it veering into either 'too good' or 'too bad' very quickly!
The S/T5 suggestion would also go along with bumping S/T across many other units. GW boxed themselves in for design space but limiting T to only up to 7/8 on most things
One thing not being discussed is the fact that these units are all troops choices in their particular armies but elites in non cult legions so giving them 2 wounds would make basic csm even worse.
Leaving chosen out would mean many players would only play cult armies.
I'm not saying it's bad to give them more wounds but something would need to be given to non cult units to balance it out. Preferably not just making them cheaper.
vict0988 wrote: It would probably make them about as pts efficient as Primaris. Zerkers would benefit the most IMO, Noise Marines the least, Rubrics and Plague Marines would both become a lot better but not as much better as Zerkers. But if Chaos got better Chapter Tactics or non-Soup benefits in addition to 2 wounds they'd be even more OP than SMIMO.
Don't get your hopes up I really doubt they'd double the wounds characteristic of a non-Primaris unit.
I'd say Noise Marines would benefit a decent amount. Assuming around the same point costs as now, buying them a Sonic Blaster is only a little more expensive than the ABR Intercessor, and they would ignore cover and have a Chainsword they can buy.
Biasn wrote: One thing could be that chosen will go to 2 Wounds since they are the "cult" equivalent of undivided right?
Yes that could be argued and I quiet like them but they don't fill a troops slot. Which means undivided would suddenly have considerably weaker troops.
Personally I'd settle for being able to take raptors as troops again in my night lords but that wouldn't help the other undevided legions.
All CSM should be 2 wounds. Otherwise it will just be another two years of waiting until Chaoticus Primaris Fallenus™ come out and we have to buy our entire army all over again.
Not only 2W sounds more like wishlist than anything else, but it would not help CSM at all.
Primaris SM have 2W and 2A but it's not the reasons why they are good. They are good because they have good weapons, traits and stratagems that support them.
I think what you mean by "Hits to kill" is "number of hits so that the average number of wound is 1". It's a very natural way of thinking, but, while harder to computer, "Number of hits so that you have a 90% chance of killing" is more interesting. (change 90% for value you consider appropriate)
No, it's so the average number of wounds is 2 for Terminators (who are 2 wounds) and 1 for Plague Marines (who are 1 wound).
I could do the math on 90% kill chance, but that's a LOT of anydice work-the averages work well enough to prove my point, I think.
Ishagu wrote:This will be a substantial bonus, but it needs to coincide with an increase in points. Nothing too big, but a slight bump for sure.
Just like how when Tactical Marines got new strats and free AP on their weapons, they went up!
So are Guard going to get 6 shots per model or 8 shots per model next edition to make up for the fact that they keep making everything else bigger and tougher?
I think what you mean by "Hits to kill" is "number of hits so that the average number of wound is 1". It's a very natural way of thinking, but, while harder to computer, "Number of hits so that you have a 90% chance of killing" is more interesting. (change 90% for value you consider appropriate)
No, it's so the average number of wounds is 2 for Terminators (who are 2 wounds) and 1 for Plague Marines (who are 1 wound).
I could do the math on 90% kill chance, but that's a LOT of anydice work-the averages work well enough to prove my point, I think.
Ishagu wrote:This will be a substantial bonus, but it needs to coincide with an increase in points. Nothing too big, but a slight bump for sure.
Just like how when Tactical Marines got new strats and free AP on their weapons, they went up!
Wait...
Oh relax lol. Chaos Marines have been better than the loyalists for the last two years. A change in core stats should come alongside a price bump, not to mention that as things stand Chaos don't lose anything for allying with other sub factions, unlike the loyalist Astartes.
I think what you mean by "Hits to kill" is "number of hits so that the average number of wound is 1". It's a very natural way of thinking, but, while harder to computer, "Number of hits so that you have a 90% chance of killing" is more interesting. (change 90% for value you consider appropriate)
No, it's so the average number of wounds is 2 for Terminators (who are 2 wounds) and 1 for Plague Marines (who are 1 wound).
I could do the math on 90% kill chance, but that's a LOT of anydice work-the averages work well enough to prove my point, I think.
Ishagu wrote:This will be a substantial bonus, but it needs to coincide with an increase in points. Nothing too big, but a slight bump for sure.
Just like how when Tactical Marines got new strats and free AP on their weapons, they went up!
Wait...
Oh relax lol. Chaos Marines have been better than the loyalists for the last two years. A change in core stats should come alongside a price bump, not to mention that as things stand Chaos don't lose anything for allying with other sub factions, unlike the loyalist Astartes.
"They were better before, so they deserve to be crap now" is a terrible argument. Even "They were better before, so it's okay that they're crap now" is terrible.
AnomanderRake wrote: So are Guard going to get 6 shots per model or 8 shots per model next edition to make up for the fact that they keep making everything else bigger and tougher?
I'm developing a theory that GW is pumping up the lethality to get the game down to a single turn involving very little beyond the initiative roll. This would allow them to increase the default points level for tournaments while reducing the time taken for each round. We could have 12 round tournaments done in a single day.
Step 1: Deploy.
Step 2: Roll Initiative
Step 3: Pick up your models, move to your next match.
I think what you mean by "Hits to kill" is "number of hits so that the average number of wound is 1". It's a very natural way of thinking, but, while harder to computer, "Number of hits so that you have a 90% chance of killing" is more interesting. (change 90% for value you consider appropriate)
No, it's so the average number of wounds is 2 for Terminators (who are 2 wounds) and 1 for Plague Marines (who are 1 wound).
I could do the math on 90% kill chance, but that's a LOT of anydice work-the averages work well enough to prove my point, I think.
Ishagu wrote:This will be a substantial bonus, but it needs to coincide with an increase in points. Nothing too big, but a slight bump for sure.
Just like how when Tactical Marines got new strats and free AP on their weapons, they went up!
Wait...
Oh relax lol. Chaos Marines have been better than the loyalists for the last two years. A change in core stats should come alongside a price bump, not to mention that as things stand Chaos don't lose anything for allying with other sub factions, unlike the loyalist Astartes.
"They were better before, so they deserve to be crap now" is a terrible argument. Even "They were better before, so it's okay that they're crap now" is terrible.
I'm not making that argument lol.
I'm telling you to relax. We don't know what updated Chaos will be getting yet.
Ishagu wrote: Oh relax lol. Chaos Marines have been better than the loyalists for the last two years. A change in core stats should come alongside a price bump, not to mention that as things stand Chaos don't lose anything for allying with other sub factions, unlike the loyalist Astartes.
FFS, until a couple months ago you didn't lose anything by allying with other sub-factions.
But hey, keep rolling with the collective punishment reasoning.
I'm not making that argument lol.
I'm telling you to relax. We don't know what updated Chaos will be getting yet.
After how long is it considered to be okey, to no longer be relaxed ?
also it isn't very fun for chaos marine players to hear, that as long as they spam demons, ahriman and FW stuff, and never ever take csm in their csm army, it is going to be okey.
I doubt a DA player is happy to hear that he should be happy, that IH are great now and they are marines too, so he should feel great.
AnomanderRake wrote: So are Guard going to get 6 shots per model or 8 shots per model next edition to make up for the fact that they keep making everything else bigger and tougher?
No, but maybe after they all get psychically awakened every guardsman will have Smite!
Confirmed, DA player, pissed that GW couldn't even re-write our chapter master re-rolls not to mention the fact that we were a worse performing army BEFORE the SM buffs and couldn't even get a bone while "real" SM got a whole steak dinner...
SW player as well and the fact that we pay more for a tac that does less when GW could have easily put in a new price for our hunters and claws in the PDF they put out would have been nice. Frost weapons are sooooo good, glad those LCs got a price reduction...
BA player too!! It's great that invictors break the keyword structure and don't get any chapter bonuses. Much fun, great times! Also, so happy that regular marines got better and cheaper charging, pre-game move and extra attack strats, finally justice for Sanguinius!!!
DW player here as well. I love all those new toys that SM got that would work so great in a DW army that we were told to just wait for until they got the shoulder pad issue worked out...
Nope, not bitter at all. Supper happy about all of the recent game changes and GWs release schedule. Only 6 more months to wait until I can play at a tournament with any of my armies with the hope of going better than 3-3...
Elbows wrote: Two wounds would be a huge deal, and would need a couple points extra-cost for sure. As neat as it would be, it would make Rubrics, etc. extremely good. Two wounds on a basic model is a tremendous asset.
I dunno. Intercessors are 30" and AP2 on turn 2 with an extra attack. Not to mention SBRs.
DW player here as well. I love all those new toys that SM got that would work so great in a DW army that we were told to just wait for until they got the shoulder pad issue worked out...
Which was ~7 months ago by the by. Amusingly enough, the only army thats gotten fewer updates than the lads on the Long Vigil are Grey Knights.
As with everything, a change like this, even at no points change, would help some more than others. As pointed out, the biggest benefits would go to Plague Marines and Rubric Marines, since they already are the most resilient of the cult infantry. Berzerkers would absolutely benefit, and while they wouldn't be the biggest winners of the change, they're already the best cult infantry there is, so this would make them see a return. Losing half as many dudes as before to piddly shots would be a big deal for them. Noise Marines, unfortunately, would benefit the least from the change. Their special rule works off them dying, so this runs against that, and they aren't able to really put out a lot of damage right now anyways (only outshining the Plague Marines in damage output), so they benefit the least from the change, and are already one of the least seen cult infantry, so yeah - not a huge change here.
Points adjustment-wise, I think only a 1 or 2 point increase across the board would be required. Berzerkers should go up 2 points, as probably should Plague Marines. Rubric Marines would only need to go up 1 point, or maybe no increase. Noise Marines would definitely not require a points change, even with +1 Wound.
So I am actually thinking that this Rumor is missing a key point. DG & Tson are NOT mentioned in the Factions getting updated rules in PA2.
So it may very well mean that Rubrics and Plague Marines stay at 1W, but Noise Marines and Zerkersare are getting 2W.
This would be odd and frustratingly inconsistent, but maybe par for the course at this point
Galef wrote: So I am actually thinking that this Rumor is missing a key point. DG & Tson are NOT mentioned in the Factions getting updated rules in PA2.
So it may very well mean that Rubrics and Plague Marines stay at 1W, but Noise Marines and Zerkersare are getting 2W.
This would be odd and frustratingly inconsistent, but maybe par for the course at this point
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As odd frusttrating and inconsistent as Tac / CSM marine prices compared to C:SM Tacs?
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Yarium wrote: As with everything, a change like this, even at no points change, would help some more than others. As pointed out, the biggest benefits would go to Plague Marines and Rubric Marines, since they already are the most resilient of the cult infantry. Berzerkers would absolutely benefit, and while they wouldn't be the biggest winners of the change, they're already the best cult infantry there is, so this would make them see a return. Losing half as many dudes as before to piddly shots would be a big deal for them. Noise Marines, unfortunately, would benefit the least from the change. Their special rule works off them dying, so this runs against that, and they aren't able to really put out a lot of damage right now anyways (only outshining the Plague Marines in damage output), so they benefit the least from the change, and are already one of the least seen cult infantry, so yeah - not a huge change here.
Points adjustment-wise, I think only a 1 or 2 point increase across the board would be required. Berzerkers should go up 2 points, as probably should Plague Marines. Rubric Marines would only need to go up 1 point, or maybe no increase. Noise Marines would definitely not require a points change, even with +1 Wound.
Nope, they profit less then noise marines.
Simply due to the fact that movement is not affected.
And footslogging berzerkers is ridicoulous.
Galef wrote: So I am actually thinking that this Rumor is missing a key point. DG & Tson are NOT mentioned in the Factions getting updated rules in PA2.
So it may very well mean that Rubrics and Plague Marines stay at 1W, but Noise Marines and Zerkersare are getting 2W.
This would be odd and frustratingly inconsistent, but maybe par for the course at this point
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As odd frusttrating and inconsistent as Tac / CSM marine prices compared to C:SM Tacs?
Indeed. But maybe A) CSM are getting something special in PA2 and/or B) CA 2019 with fix their posts
Ishagu wrote: Oh relax lol. Chaos Marines have been better than the loyalists for the last two years. A change in core stats should come alongside a price bump, not to mention that as things stand Chaos don't lose anything for allying with other sub factions, unlike the loyalist Astartes.
FFS, until a couple months ago you didn't lose anything by allying with other sub-factions.
But hey, keep rolling with the collective punishment reasoning.
Loyalists don't LOSE anything by allying with other factions. They GAIN things by not allying with other factions.
You still get blanket chapter tactics and all your strategems, relics, and everything BUT doctrines. Lollollol.
Galef wrote: So I am actually thinking that this Rumor is missing a key point. DG & Tson are NOT mentioned in the Factions getting updated rules in PA2.
So it may very well mean that Rubrics and Plague Marines stay at 1W, but Noise Marines and Zerkersare are getting 2W.
This would be odd and frustratingly inconsistent, but maybe par for the course at this point
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If they keep doing it like they have for the rest of the edition, Plague Marines and Rubrics would go to 2W for CSM only, and TS and DG would keep their 1W version.
Galef wrote: So I am actually thinking that this Rumor is missing a key point. DG & Tson are NOT mentioned in the Factions getting updated rules in PA2.
So it may very well mean that Rubrics and Plague Marines stay at 1W, but Noise Marines and Zerkersare are getting 2W.
This would be odd and frustratingly inconsistent, but maybe par for the course at this point
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If they keep doing it like they have for the rest of the edition, Plague Marines and Rubrics would go to 2W for CSM only, and TS and DG would keep their 1W version.
Kind of like how they didn't apply brutal assault to all the CSM factions, right?
That aside I fully recognize the possibility that they gave EC and WE a buff in PA that won't percolate to everyone else later. If that happens, we ride! Or something.
As was pointed out to me, DG and TS are on the picture with all the "who will get an update" army symbols. So it is possible they are saving them for later, because they might otherwise run out of badies for the imperium to fight.
Or they fight each other - not unlikely considering they are the only two primarchs with models that could clash and both walk away afterwards.
Biasn wrote: One thing could be that chosen will go to 2 Wounds since they are the "cult" equivalent of undivided right?
Yes that could be argued and I quiet like them but they don't fill a troops slot. Which means undivided would suddenly have considerably weaker troops.
Sure, but having access to some Undivided W2 marines is better than no Undivided W2 marines at all.
And personally I think having your troops be cultists and then having couple of squads of beefy Chosen would be pretty cool. I'd prefer Chaos Marines themselves to be pretty rare but powerful.
Jidmah wrote: As was pointed out to me, DG and TS are on the picture with all the "who will get an update" army symbols. So it is possible they are saving them for later, because they might otherwise run out of badies for the imperium to fight.
Or they fight each other - not unlikely considering they are the only two primarchs with models that could clash and both walk away afterwards.
Everyone gets "something". I'm curious how many books there will be, because the first didn't cover a lot. I'd guess PA3 would be the last one with everyone else crammed in. PA3 can't possibly be out before the end of the year, either, so CA first, if anything.
Daedalus81 wrote: Everyone gets "something". I'm curious how many books there will be, because the first didn't cover a lot. I'd guess PA3 would be the last one with everyone else crammed in. PA3 can't possibly be out before the end of the year, either, so CA first, if anything.
PA3 is december. PA is running through next year, it's not just the 3 boxes.
Biasn wrote: One thing could be that chosen will go to 2 Wounds since they are the "cult" equivalent of undivided right?
Yes that could be argued and I quiet like them but they don't fill a troops slot. Which means undivided would suddenly have considerably weaker troops.
Sure, but having access to some Undivided W2 marines is better than no Undivided W2 marines at all.
And personally I think having your troops be cultists and then having couple of squads of beefy Chosen would be pretty cool. I'd prefer Chaos Marines themselves to be pretty rare but powerful.
This is what I've been talking about. The basic Chaos Marine profile has no place in the CSM codex. It doesn't represent Legions proper.
Daedalus81 wrote: Leaks had PA2 on 11/29 unless something changed. Seems exceedingly crammed to have CA, PA3, and battle boxes on top of everything else. Too much.
CA's not going to be much more than points adjustments and the 'Legends' transition from what I've heard.
PA updates are on a 1/month schedule. Assuming they stick to that, PA3 is next month. It's BA and someone else that I didn't really care about. Probably tied into the Primaris Mephiston release.
Biasn wrote: One thing could be that chosen will go to 2 Wounds since they are the "cult" equivalent of undivided right?
Yes that could be argued and I quiet like them but they don't fill a troops slot. Which means undivided would suddenly have considerably weaker troops.
Sure, but having access to some Undivided W2 marines is better than no Undivided W2 marines at all.
And personally I think having your troops be cultists and then having couple of squads of beefy Chosen would be pretty cool. I'd prefer Chaos Marines themselves to be pretty rare but powerful.
Like I said earlier just let Night Lords have raptors as troops again and I'll gladly take my 2 wound chosen (terror squads) and be happy.
Is there another faction in the game (excluding nu-Marines) who's units just get free wounds for literally no cost? Are GW actually trying to make 40k 30k v2.0? This is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard if true and is a sign that the game is heading towards/is already in a completely broken state. I don't quite fancy a game where I can't compete and I don't get updates unless I play a blessed faction. feth this.
wasn't that how fantasy ended, they hyped up a ton of books, and hinted at new stuff coming up, only to then make AoS and leave people with hundrades of dollars spend on stuff, they could no longer use?
I got a quick question. People are saying that cult marines are just going to be prime targets for D2 weapons. Which yeah. But where were these D2 weapons pointed before? Tanks? The cult marines to start with?
Provided the 2nd wound comes at no cost I don't see much to worry about
So are you going to make D1 weapons cheaper or double their rate of fire to compensate for the fact that you're making things 2x as durable against them for free?
So are you going to make D1 weapons cheaper or double their rate of fire to compensate for the fact that you're making things 2x as durable against them for free?
Many D1 weapons are free so let's make them negative points to make the game more lethal and only last for players that have more bodies than their opponent has bullets
So are you going to make D1 weapons cheaper or double their rate of fire to compensate for the fact that you're making things 2x as durable against them for free?
Many D1 weapons are free so let's make them negative points to make the game more lethal and only last for players that have more bodies than their opponent has bullets
A game of "the person who bought the most models wins!"?
Perfect. Why have we been writing 'game' rulebooks all these years? Get me the marketing department on the phone straight away!
So are you going to make D1 weapons cheaper or double their rate of fire to compensate for the fact that you're making things 2x as durable against them for free?
Many D1 weapons are free so let's make them negative points to make the game more lethal and only last for players that have more bodies than their opponent has bullets
A game of "the person who bought the most models wins!"?
Perfect. Why have we been writing 'game' rulebooks all these years? Get me the marketing department on the phone straight away!
Well a lot of people say the game is already won at list building. This is just cutting out the middle man. You can get a lot more games in a day this way!
Karol wrote: wasn't that how fantasy ended, they hyped up a ton of books, and hinted at new stuff coming up, only to then make AoS and leave people with hundrades of dollars spend on stuff, they could no longer use?
It was literally called "The End Times". Nothing was hinted and everyone was going in blind. This process doesn't even compare to how brutal that was.
Berzerkers get a lot out of it because their main issue is durability. 2W means more shooting will have to be committed to stop them, or that more will survive the same amount of shooting and get into CC. But it doesn't help with their overall problem of being a melee unit.
Plague Marines get a lot of efficiency out of it due to their other durability bonuses, but it doesn't address the issue that keeps them from being fielded. PMs are already fairly durable for their cost. What they lack is firepower. Their main problem is s4 ap 0 on their bolters, and Chaos having no source of re-roll wounds of 1 for ranged. If they got plague weapon on their bolters too then it'd get interesting.
Rubrics get a fair bit out of it. Their firepower is already decent at ranged, and they are supposed to be bad at melee but tough to shift. Probably the biggest improvement.
Noise Marines don't benefit much for the same reason as plague marines. They could use the extra durability, but their big problem is lack of firepower due to s4 ap0. Sonic blasters are not good at their current cost. If sonic weapons got restatted to be more killy, then this would help. But then melee noise marines are still not worth it because they are also s4 ap0.
In all cases except berzerkers, if this comes with a point increase then its crap because that dilutes their offensive efficiency even more.
Overall, Chaos marine infantry won't be worth using until it receives special rules/buffs of equivalent magnitude to the new SM codex. 2W could be part of that, but it's not enough to make these worth taking.
Also, reminder that Chaos being involved in winning tournaments is due to units other than CSM infantry. I'm not content to have CSM infantry stay bad just because disco lords + daemon princes + plague bearer lists are scoring, and you shouldn't be content with this situation either.
Ill never understand the logic of "If they give a buff to this bad unit they should make it more expensive!"
But.... Doesnt that neuter the objetive of the buff? Unless the buffs are so big you need to make them more expensive to compensate.
Not that I oppose things being more expensive. Quite the contrary. I like it, less models per army plis GW. But I find it a faulty logic.
And lol at people cryng for cheap infantry and their poor 1 damage weapons.
1W marines are absolute terrible and they fell extremely horrible to play or even play agaisnt with how easy they die to basic shooting. This is not a defense of the crazy marine supplements. But I always feel bad with those 16-25 ppm T4 3+sv marine units dyng like smuchts.
Cult marines should be Chaos primaris.
I mean, in AoS all elite infantry is 2W and nothing has happened. And the game is less killy than 40k.
But this post reminds me the "INFANTRY SQUADS WILL BE 5PPM I WAS TOLD". So many pages of rage for nothing.
Galas wrote: Ill never understand the logic of "If they give a buff to this bad unit they should make it more expensive!" But.... Doesnt that neuter the objetive of the buff? Unless the buffs are so big you need to make them more expensive to compensate. Not that I oppose things being more expensive. Quite the contrary. I like it, less models per army plis GW. But I find it a faulty logic. And lol at people cryng for cheap infantry and their poor 1 damage weapons.
1W marines are absolute terrible and they fell extremely horrible to play or even play agaisnt with how easy they die to basic shooting. This is not a defense of the crazy marine supplements. But I always feel bad with those 16-25 ppm T4 3+sv marine units dyng like smuchts. Cult marines should be Chaos primaris. I mean, in AoS all elite infantry is 2W and nothing has happened. And the game is less killy than 40k.
But this post reminds me the "INFANTRY SQUADS WILL BE 5PPM I WAS TOLD". So many pages of rage for nothing.
For me, this issue is the amount of the increase proportionately. 12-13ppm Marines doubling in wounds is an almost doubling of durability (I say "almost" because multi-damage weapons still remove them at the same rate)
In reality, they should (for their current points cost) only get a half wound increase. But half wounds aren't a thing, thank goodness. So you double their wounds, but increase them by only 1-2ppm. 15ppm Marines are about right for 2W as-is (with doctrines and such) and unless Chaos get doctrine equivalents, 13-14ppm is right for Chaos Marines.
And yes, they are currently 13ppm for 1W, but given all that Loyalist get for 12ppm, CSMs should be 11ppm right now. So giving them 2W for no point increase works. But Loyalists getting 2W should come with a 2-3ppm increase
So are you going to make D1 weapons cheaper or double their rate of fire to compensate for the fact that you're making things 2x as durable against them for free?
Factions like AM already get an obnoxious amount of firepower for the points it costs to field them. I've played against AM armies that can have (I could be fuzzy on exact numbers) a unit of I think 10 units throwing out 40 shots at me when I am trying to close distance with my troops. The weight of fire is already pretty crazy, so we don't need to see 1d weapons get a bump if we see a handful of troops go to 2W. I find that suggestion silly.
Edit - Now, it is fair to leave the door open for future changes, as we have seen GW do this edition. So if they did implement this change, and then it turns to be too much of a boost, we would see an adjustment. That being said, I still don't see how 1d weapons need a boost, because they certainly already provide plenty of punch in large number - which is how they should be used in this edition, yeah?
Galas wrote: Ill never understand the logic of "If they give a buff to this bad unit they should make it more expensive!"
But.... Doesnt that neuter the objetive of the buff?
This. If the units are in need of a buff they are alredy paying more points than they are worth, meaning there is room to add power to the unit without making it OP.
Probably better to have a 9th edition with enough changes to make 1 wound models that aren't chaff like guard or cultists good choices...
Currently the trend is towards 2 wound models to get round the sheer volume of fire in the shooting phase, if that continues every shooting army will basically need a 2 wound shooting set up.
I think the 'solution' of primaris having 2 wounds and anti horde silly level firepower units (some infantry units potentially putting out more anti infantry fire than dedicated super heavies...) just bends things more out of shape.
Biasn wrote: So there is apparently a rumor that cult marines will go up to 2 wounds (rubrics , noise marines etc). If that would be true do you guys think it will be enough to straight up fix them?
As you would see if you read further down in the B&C thread, the pic with those rumors come from me at my Hexfleet Virules Facebook page (link in sig). Some jackass took my post and carefully cropped out my page name and references and then spread that all over Discord. I mentioned on the B&C what happened (where I post under the username Lagrath), after which Spikey Bits and Faet reposted the cropped picture and referenced my B&C handle rather than my page, hah.
I think 2 wounds is the least likely of those changes, but I posted it as a possibility because more than one person with good contacts mentioned that it was happening. I don't have any direct knowledge or confirmation that it is true, but it's popped up enough to be a worthwhile rumor.
Galef wrote: I've said from the beginning of 8E that ALL Marines should have been 2W/2A base . .
Nope. A Space Marine is as tough as an Ork, wrapped in armor as protective as heavy Aspect Armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's where they should be.
Insectum7 wrote: Nope. A Space Marine is as tough as an Ork, wrapped in armor as protective as heavy Aspect Armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's where they should be.
Which Ork? Nobs have 2Ws and are just Ork Sgts. So surely at least Marine Sgts/CSM unit Champions should also be 2Ws? Eldar Aspect Exarchs (their Sgt equipvalents) are also 2Ws, so....
And since Elite units like Vets and Chosen are basically units of all Sgts/Champions, then by your own analogy, those units at the very least should have 2Ws
Honestly I will heartily accept anything that makes 8th less deadly.
You want 2W cult marines? Great, do it.
You want 2W chosen? Sure.
You want T5 on ork nobz and better? Sounds right to me.
The offense vs defense paradigm in the game right now is completely F-d up for everything that's not the lowliest infantry.Tanks go up like firecrackers. Elite infantry dies like chumps. Anti-infantry guns pour out 40 dice in a shooting phase. basic marines pop a strat and hit you with 40 S4 Ap-2 ignore cover shots.
Insectum7 wrote: Nope. A Space Marine is as tough as an Ork, wrapped in armor as protective as heavy Aspect Armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's where they should be.
Which Ork? Nobs have 2Ws and are just Ork Sgts. So surely at least Marine Sgts/CSM unit Champions should also be 2Ws? Eldar Aspect Exarchs (their Sgt equipvalents) are also 2Ws, so....
And since Elite units like Vets and Chosen are basically units of all Sgts/Champions, then by your own analogy, those units at the very least should have 2Ws
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Don't bother with Insectum. He's convinced that Manlet Marines were powerful even after all the power creep that happened straight with the Eldar codex onwards.
Insectum7 wrote: Nope. A Space Marine is as tough as an Ork, wrapped in armor as protective as heavy Aspect Armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's where they should be.
Which Ork? Nobs have 2Ws and are just Ork Sgts. So surely at least Marine Sgts/CSM unit Champions should also be 2Ws? Eldar Aspect Exarchs (their Sgt equipvalents) are also 2Ws, so....
And since Elite units like Vets and Chosen are basically units of all Sgts/Champions, then by your own analogy, those units at the very least should have 2Ws
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The sergeants of all factions do not need to be more wounds. Ork "Sergeants" have more wounds simply because they respect the biggest Ork around. The size of an Ork is linked to their status, almost directly. Exarchs are not "Sergeants", they are more like heroes. Originally they had roughly the stats of a Space Marine Captain, and acted as individuals.
A Space Marine Sergeant or Veteran is neither of those. He's just a more experienced Space Marine. The only reason I don't mind it on Terminators is because the extra wound is a mechanical function of the armor, not the marine.
Don't bother with Insectum. He's convinced that Manlet Marines were powerful even after all the power creep that happened straight with the Eldar codex onwards.
A: SM weren't top tier, but I had plenty of success with them. The new books feel like straight up cheating.
B: Don't bother with Slayer, he thinks CSM's don't belong in the CSM codex.
Spoiler:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The basic Chaos Marine profile has no place in the CSM codex. It doesn't represent Legions proper.
First of all. There is nothing wrong with many cult marines. Just give them freaking doctrines. There is no excuse for them to not have the same AP bonus as their imperial counter parts. Some might need point increases like noise marines and berserks after the changes but...overall that would fix them or at least make them playable. Though it is fair to say - most choas power revolves around making units shoot twice. This amplifies the doctrine bonus significantly. CP of that ability would have to be increased.
They are the tactical/stern/vangaurd equivalents. Choas has not primaris equivalents because they don't have the tech. Realistically - their primaris are possessed - which are in fact very good under the right situation and buffs.
Insectum7 wrote: Nope. A Space Marine is as tough as an Ork, wrapped in armor as protective as heavy Aspect Armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's where they should be.
Which Ork? Nobs have 2Ws and are just Ork Sgts. So surely at least Marine Sgts/CSM unit Champions should also be 2Ws? Eldar Aspect Exarchs (their Sgt equipvalents) are also 2Ws, so....
And since Elite units like Vets and Chosen are basically units of all Sgts/Champions, then by your own analogy, those units at the very least should have 2Ws
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The sergeants of all factions do not need to be more wounds. Ork "Sergeants" have more wounds simply because they respect the biggest Ork around. The size of an Ork is linked to their status, almost directly. Exarchs are not "Sergeants", they are more like heroes. Originally they had roughly the stats of a Space Marine Captain, and acted as individuals.
A Space Marine Sergeant or Veteran is neither of those. He's just a more experienced Space Marine. The only reason I don't mind it on Terminators is because the extra wound is a mechanical function of the armor, not the marine.
Don't bother with Insectum. He's convinced that Manlet Marines were powerful even after all the power creep that happened straight with the Eldar codex onwards.
A: SM weren't top tier, but I had plenty of success with them. The new books feel like straight up cheating.
B: Don't bother with Slayer, he thinks CSM's don't belong in the CSM codex.
Spoiler:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The basic Chaos Marine profile has no place in the CSM codex. It doesn't represent Legions proper.
"The new books" You mean Ironhands and Imperial fists right? Ultramarines are really strong but they aren't winning events because no one even plays them. They are that much weaker than IH/IF it is laughable how those 2 supplements made it through.
Insectum7 wrote: Nope. A Space Marine is as tough as an Ork, wrapped in armor as protective as heavy Aspect Armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's where they should be.
Which Ork? Nobs have 2Ws and are just Ork Sgts. So surely at least Marine Sgts/CSM unit Champions should also be 2Ws? Eldar Aspect Exarchs (their Sgt equipvalents) are also 2Ws, so....
And since Elite units like Vets and Chosen are basically units of all Sgts/Champions, then by your own analogy, those units at the very least should have 2Ws
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The sergeants of all factions do not need to be more wounds. Ork "Sergeants" have more wounds simply because they respect the biggest Ork around. The size of an Ork is linked to their status, almost directly. Exarchs are not "Sergeants", they are more like heroes. Originally they had roughly the stats of a Space Marine Captain, and acted as individuals.
A Space Marine Sergeant or Veteran is neither of those. He's just a more experienced Space Marine. The only reason I don't mind it on Terminators is because the extra wound is a mechanical function of the armor, not the marine.
Don't bother with Insectum. He's convinced that Manlet Marines were powerful even after all the power creep that happened straight with the Eldar codex onwards.
A: SM weren't top tier, but I had plenty of success with them. The new books feel like straight up cheating.
B: Don't bother with Slayer, he thinks CSM's don't belong in the CSM codex.
Spoiler:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The basic Chaos Marine profile has no place in the CSM codex. It doesn't represent Legions proper.
Yeah, the Chaos Marine profile has no place in the codex which is why it should be tossed out in favor of making Chosen the base Troops.
I'm not wrong. The entry is really only there for Renegades, which would be better represented through the Loyalist codex via switching of keywords.
Possessed are base Strength 5 with d3 attacks. +1 for Shock Assault, usually. A Dark Apostle can give them +1 to-wound with a Prayer. Vessels For The Neverborn can give them +1 Strength and Attack. (1 CP) And the Warlord Trait from that formation can give you natural 6s to-wound as an extra Mortal. Heralds (of the Daemon variety) can give them +1 Strength per mark they have, which (for 1 CP) can be all 4. Greater Possessed can give them an extra +1 Strength. Veterans of the Long War, of course, can give them +1 to-wound. Prescience can give them +1 to-hit.
So, in total, you can get 20 Possessed, with d3+2 attacks, at Strength 11, with +2 to-wound and +1 to-hit.
But, the issue is cost. In a vacuum, that looks nice, but in practice... Not so much.
So are you going to make D1 weapons cheaper or double their rate of fire to compensate for the fact that you're making things 2x as durable against them for free?
Factions like AM already get an obnoxious amount of firepower for the points it costs to field them. I've played against AM armies that can have (I could be fuzzy on exact numbers) a unit of I think 10 units throwing out 40 shots at me when I am trying to close distance with my troops. The weight of fire is already pretty crazy, so we don't need to see 1d weapons get a bump if we see a handful of troops go to 2W. I find that suggestion silly.
Edit - Now, it is fair to leave the door open for future changes, as we have seen GW do this edition. So if they did implement this change, and then it turns to be too much of a boost, we would see an adjustment. That being said, I still don't see how 1d weapons need a boost, because they certainly already provide plenty of punch in large number - which is how they should be used in this edition, yeah?
The weight of fire keeps getting pushed higher and higher because weaker weapons (particularly lasguns) are completely pointless without four shots a model. Consider a Space Marine in cover. 4+ to hit/5+ to wound/2+ save means you need 36 lasgun shots on average to remove that model. 72 lasgun shots if it's a Primaris Marine or a Cult CSM model under this proposed change. FRF/SRF exists because durability creep has squashed the bottom end to the point that lasguns are pretty pointless without it.
Forget the exact build but they can be made pretty resilient with some way to do mortals on 6's rerolling wounds. It's silly but they are good.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insectum7 wrote: @Xenomancers: I understand you have your biases regarding the other books. But the UM feels like cheating, too.
It's not bias. It is objective truth. Ultramarines are terrible compared to ironhands or IF.
Ultramarines are competitive don't get me wrong...they are not competitive against ironhands or IF....Youve got to get real. For all the squaking about marines being OP it is really just the superdoctrines of ironhands and IF and over abundance of power on traits...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: Possessed are base Strength 5 with d3 attacks. +1 for Shock Assault, usually.
A Dark Apostle can give them +1 to-wound with a Prayer.
Vessels For The Neverborn can give them +1 Strength and Attack. (1 CP)
And the Warlord Trait from that formation can give you natural 6s to-wound as an extra Mortal.
Heralds (of the Daemon variety) can give them +1 Strength per mark they have, which (for 1 CP) can be all 4.
Greater Possessed can give them an extra +1 Strength.
Veterans of the Long War, of course, can give them +1 to-wound.
Prescience can give them +1 to-hit.
So, in total, you can get 20 Possessed, with d3+2 attacks, at Strength 11, with +2 to-wound and +1 to-hit.
But, the issue is cost. In a vacuum, that looks nice, but in practice... Not so much.
More importantly you give them a -2 to hit and a 4++ save. Mortals on a 6 warlord trait and +2 to wound abilities.
Insectum7 wrote: @Xenomancers: I understand you have your biases regarding the other books. But the UM feels like cheating, too.
It's not bias. It is objective truth. Ultramarines are terrible compared to ironhands or IF.
Ultramarines are competitive don't get me wrong...they are not competitive against ironhands or IF....Youve got to get real. For all the squaking about marines being OP it is really just the superdoctrines of ironhands and IF and over abundance of power on traits...
IH and IF have easy power-combos, so they're popular for tournaments. That doesn't preclude UM feeling like cheating against the rest of what's out there. Overall I am not a fan of the supplements.
I don't even want to think how this will affect the cost. I mean, is wounds really the answer that CSM need? I would much rather my Bezerkers be more Bezerkery. I would much rather the powers of the gods that I am paying money to toss around actually do something other than give one model +1 something.
CSM needs to be more glass cannon. They need to be easier to be able to rip apart anything they can lay their hands on. They should be the melee super focused army that can't be stopped. Instead they are getting out meleed by green cockney mushrooms and paper elves.
No, it isn't THE answer. Most would agree that THE answer is going to involve points drops and something equivalent to Doctrines.
But 2W Cult marines is AN answer, specifically to the question of "What is the Chaos equivalent to Primaris"
And you've been wrong multiple times. CSMs aren't automatically bad*** veterans of millenia, they run the whole gamut.
Yeah and you're talking about Renegades which would be better represented via the Loyalist codex.
So yeah I am right.
CSMs can be recently treasonous renegades, they can be long term raiders who've had to resort to piracy for equipment, they can be time-lost marines from a forgotten age, they can be marines who have fallen into the worship of the dark gods but aren't particularly outstanding and so don't climb the ranks, they can be listless and distracted and not keep up with their warrior skills, etc. CSMs who survive 10 years of disloyalty do not all suddenly become uber-veterans deserving of improved stats. It doesn't work like that.
Insectum7 wrote: @Xenomancers: I understand you have your biases regarding the other books. But the UM feels like cheating, too.
It's not bias. It is objective truth. Ultramarines are terrible compared to ironhands or IF.
Ultramarines are competitive don't get me wrong...they are not competitive against ironhands or IF....Youve got to get real. For all the squaking about marines being OP it is really just the superdoctrines of ironhands and IF and over abundance of power on traits...
IH and IF have easy power-combos, so they're popular for tournaments. That doesn't preclude UM feeling like cheating against the rest of what's out there. Overall I am not a fan of the supplements.
But this is off-topic, so let's move on.
Like I said. Youve been playing the game on hard mode. You turn down the difficulty and it just feels easy.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't even want to think how this will affect the cost. I mean, is wounds really the answer that CSM need? I would much rather my Bezerkers be more Bezerkery. I would much rather the powers of the gods that I am paying money to toss around actually do something other than give one model +1 something.
CSM needs to be more glass cannon. They need to be easier to be able to rip apart anything they can lay their hands on. They should be the melee super focused army that can't be stopped. Instead they are getting out meleed by green cockney mushrooms and paper elves.
??? A single WE berzerker effectively gets 10 S5/S6 attacks on the charge (15 if you use the fight again strat), they are tailor-made to lawnmower through orks and elves. Berzerkers already do an obscene amount of damage and having shock assault has made it even better, their damage output was never the problem it has always been surviving their trip getting into combat
No, it isn't THE answer. Most would agree that THE answer is going to involve points drops and something equivalent to Doctrines.
But 2W Cult marines is AN answer, specifically to the question of "What is the Chaos equivalent to Primaris"
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I really feel this is NOT the answer. This would be like Sterngaurd and Vangaurd getting 2 wounds each.
No, it isn't THE answer. Most would agree that THE answer is going to involve points drops and something equivalent to Doctrines.
But 2W Cult marines is AN answer, specifically to the question of "What is the Chaos equivalent to Primaris"
And you've been wrong multiple times. CSMs aren't automatically bad*** veterans of millenia, they run the whole gamut.
Yeah and you're talking about Renegades which would be better represented via the Loyalist codex.
So yeah I am right.
CSMs can be recently treasonous renegades, they can be long term raiders who've had to resort to piracy for equipment, they can be time-lost marines from a forgotten age, they can be marines who have fallen into the worship of the dark gods but aren't particularly outstanding and so don't climb the ranks, they can be listless and distracted and not keep up with their warrior skills, etc. CSMs who survive 10 years of disloyalty do not all suddenly become uber-veterans deserving of improved stats. It doesn't work like that.
And then they suddenly lose all their Speeders and Drop Pods and Assault Cannons and somehow abandoned ALL organization from before...
Yeah I roll my eyes at that. A page dedicated to how to switch keywords would've been a more accurate way to show what you're talking about.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't even want to think how this will affect the cost. I mean, is wounds really the answer that CSM need? I would much rather my Bezerkers be more Bezerkery. I would much rather the powers of the gods that I am paying money to toss around actually do something other than give one model +1 something.
CSM needs to be more glass cannon. They need to be easier to be able to rip apart anything they can lay their hands on. They should be the melee super focused army that can't be stopped. Instead they are getting out meleed by green cockney mushrooms and paper elves.
??? A single WE berzerker effectively gets 10 S5/S6 attacks on the charge (15 if you use the fight again strat), they are tailor-made to lawnmower through orks and elves. Berzerkers already do an obscene amount of damage and having shock assault has made it even better, their damage output was never the problem it has always been surviving their trip getting into combat
Yup, Berzerkers get into melee and they kill anything..
Getting them into melee on the other hand.
There's a few different questions worth asking here:
1)
Is there any 1 wound infantry in the game that costs more than 9 or 10 pts that is good? (Excluding new SM). If so, what makes it good?
2)
If the current CSM infantry units had the current loyalist traits and doctrines, would they be good? If yes, then they probably don't need major stat changes. (Not suggesting that they get the same stuff, just suggesting that its a decent test.)
For example, possessed right now are nearly good and can benefit from a lot of buffs, but they don't quite work out due to various issues. But if they had an extra trait like new SM, and could get an extra AP, would they be worth it? If noise marines had another -1 AP and a defensive trait would they be worth it?
If CSM were 12 points and could get re-roll 1's to wound, -1 ap, and some super doctrine bonus, they would be doing okay. Give them a new 2 bonus trait and they could be solid.
I think the answer will mostly be yes. Some units like Oblits may be broken with the full traits.
3)
What are CSM units really supposed to be even? From the lore, the breakdown should be something more like:
- Renegade/New Marine: These should be equivalent to loyalist tac marines, but with less training/discipline. So without Doctrines, but probably cheaper. These represent Red Corsairs, or new marines made by Black Legion or Iron Warriors.
- Legionnaire: These are basic marines of the Traitor Legions. They are thousands of years old and very experienced. They should be stronger than basic loyalists. Probably equivalent to veteran SM. These represent full black legion, word bearers, and other undivided legions.
- Legion veterans, aka chosen: As above, but even more elite.
- Cult marines: Veterans AND super gifted by the gods. They belong to the 4 mono god cult legions. Those legions could also contain some of the other marines types to represent less gifted or newer recruits.
So that's what we should have. But currently, the vanilla CSM profile isn't properly representing the Renegade/New marine or the Legionnaire. Its somwhere in between. And Chosen aren't really representing Legionnaires or Legion vets. Its also somewhere in between. So how could this be solved without adding new unit types?
Make the basic CSM even cheaper, but let proper legions purchase upgrades on it for a point or two per model, 3.5 codex style, to represent Legionnaries. And then do the same for Chosen.
Then to get something equivalent to loyalist doctrines, make it possible to buy Marks or veteran skills for everybody to give stat buffs along the line of -1 ap to melee or shooting, +1 A, +1 T, etc.
CSM overall should be able to achieve a strong statline than loyalists in some areas, but at greater cost and less flexibility than the doctrine system. Or with more restrictions (like penalties for mixing Marks in the same detachment unless you're black legion or word bearers.)
For example, possessed right now are nearly good and can benefit from a lot of buffs, but they don't quite work out due to various issues. But if they had an extra trait like new SM, and could get an extra AP, would they be worth it? If noise marines had another -1 AP and a defensive trait would they be
Not really, no.
They are too unreliable, to brittle, to buff reliant and too cp intensive
For example, possessed right now are nearly good and can benefit from a lot of buffs, but they don't quite work out due to various issues. But if they had an extra trait like new SM, and could get an extra AP, would they be worth it? If noise marines had another -1 AP and a defensive trait would they be
Not really, no.
They are too unreliable, to brittle, to buff reliant and too cp intensive
I think that you'll find that pure melee units don't work out, but ranged ones mostly do. And that's the same thing for loyalists for the most part, but they don't have anything like possessed. A chaos equivalent set of special rules that was geared at melee units could make them viable I think. Of course, there's overall issues with melee in 8th too, so that will complicate matters.
And you've been wrong multiple times. CSMs aren't automatically bad*** veterans of millenia, they run the whole gamut.
Yeah and you're talking about Renegades which would be better represented via the Loyalist codex.
So yeah I am right.
I have to agree with Insectum on this one. Unless I'm missing your point.
If say death Guard for example doesn't recruit new members from renegade warbands or however than there is a finite number of them and they would be killed off eventually.
And you've been wrong multiple times. CSMs aren't automatically bad*** veterans of millenia, they run the whole gamut.
Yeah and you're talking about Renegades which would be better represented via the Loyalist codex.
So yeah I am right.
I have to agree with Insectum on this one. Unless I'm missing your point.
If say death Guard for example doesn't recruit new members from renegade warbands or however than there is a finite number of them and they would be killed off eventually.
There ARE finite Death Guard. Any Renegades associated with Death Guard are just that, associated, and wouldn't have access to so many Daemon Engines or lost all their equipment. It's a stupid silly inconsistency and has been for a while.
And you've been wrong multiple times. CSMs aren't automatically bad*** veterans of millenia, they run the whole gamut.
Yeah and you're talking about Renegades which would be better represented via the Loyalist codex.
So yeah I am right.
CSMs can be recently treasonous renegades, they can be long term raiders who've had to resort to piracy for equipment, they can be time-lost marines from a forgotten age, they can be marines who have fallen into the worship of the dark gods but aren't particularly outstanding and so don't climb the ranks, they can be listless and distracted and not keep up with their warrior skills, etc. CSMs who survive 10 years of disloyalty do not all suddenly become uber-veterans deserving of improved stats. It doesn't work like that.
And then they suddenly lose all their Speeders and Drop Pods and Assault Cannons and somehow abandoned ALL organization from before...
Yeah I roll my eyes at that. A page dedicated to how to switch keywords would've been a more accurate way to show what you're talking about.
When you cut ties with the various partners and institutions that have previously supplied you with the spare parts, fuel and equipment necessary to maintain and use your technologically advanced weapons and vehicles, you are quickly no longer able to field said equipment.
You sure as **** can raid some PDF forces for Autocannons, though.
And you've been wrong multiple times. CSMs aren't automatically bad*** veterans of millenia, they run the whole gamut.
Yeah and you're talking about Renegades which would be better represented via the Loyalist codex.
So yeah I am right.
CSMs can be recently treasonous renegades, they can be long term raiders who've had to resort to piracy for equipment, they can be time-lost marines from a forgotten age, they can be marines who have fallen into the worship of the dark gods but aren't particularly outstanding and so don't climb the ranks, they can be listless and distracted and not keep up with their warrior skills, etc. CSMs who survive 10 years of disloyalty do not all suddenly become uber-veterans deserving of improved stats. It doesn't work like that.
And then they suddenly lose all their Speeders and Drop Pods and Assault Cannons and somehow abandoned ALL organization from before...
Yeah I roll my eyes at that. A page dedicated to how to switch keywords would've been a more accurate way to show what you're talking about.
When you cut ties with the various partners and institutions that have previously supplied you with the spare parts, fuel and equipment necessary to maintain and use your technologically advanced weapons and vehicles, you are quickly no longer able to field said equipment.
You sure as **** can raid some PDF forces for Autocannons, though.
Totally. It's amazing how, once you go Renegade, you suddenly can't stock up on ammo for your Assault Cannons (which are common from their Marine foes) or your Techmarines suddenly cannot maintain your Grav weapons or your Speeders, and you can all the sudden, surprise surprise, gain all these Maulerfiends and Heldrakes and even all these Reaper Autocannons on your Terminators! Your Techmarines can't maintain your stuff but they can sure know how to make a mean grip for your Terminators to use Autocannons! Yeah and suddenly your Assault Marines become super scurry too!
Codex CSM represents the various warbands (notice I didn't use the word Legion on purpose) that have fallen completely to Chaos.
Also CSM stuff is a way for GW to differentiate Chaos from regular SM. One of the main complain that existed for a very long time was that CSM were just "Marines with spikes" without having their own true identity.
If you wanna play renegades that recently went rogue (but have not yet fallen to Chaos), play Codex SM and make your own renegade chapter / company / squad / whatever.
Totally. It's amazing how, once you go Renegade, you suddenly can't stock up on ammo for your Assault Cannons (which are common from their Marine foes) or your Techmarines suddenly cannot maintain your Grav weapons or your Speeders, and you can all the sudden, surprise surprise, gain all these Maulerfiends and Heldrakes and even all these Reaper Autocannons on your Terminators! Your Techmarines can't maintain your stuff but they can sure know how to make a mean grip for your Terminators to use Autocannons! Yeah and suddenly your Assault Marines become super scurry too!
Give me a frickin break.
You're presenting it as some day 1 change and it just doesn't matter. If some renegades fell 30 years ago and have daemon engines now, so what? If int he fluff they don't have those changes yet, so what? We don't need rules to reflect all these facets.
Quasistellar wrote: I personally think it would be a good step in the right direction. I don't want marines to be cheap and horde-like. They should be tough!
"Cheap and horde like"? We must be playing with different codexes.
Quasistellar wrote: I personally think it would be a good step in the right direction. I don't want marines to be cheap and horde-like. They should be tough!
"Cheap and horde like"? We must be playing with different codexes.
what he's saying is there comes a point where "just lower the points" is a poor answer because the army is supposed to feel elite.
Quasistellar wrote: I personally think it would be a good step in the right direction. I don't want marines to be cheap and horde-like. They should be tough!
Nothing against this step.
Cult Marines are elite and should be comparable to the new and shiny Primaris Marines.
Everything depends on the pt costs of the Culties.
Quasistellar wrote: I personally think it would be a good step in the right direction. I don't want marines to be cheap and horde-like. They should be tough!
"Cheap and horde like"? We must be playing with different codexes.
what he's saying is there comes a point where "just lower the points" is a poor answer because the army is supposed to feel elite.
Maybe GW thinks it shouldn't be elite, at least at its core.
For example, possessed right now are nearly good and can benefit from a lot of buffs, but they don't quite work out due to various issues. But if they had an extra trait like new SM, and could get an extra AP, would they be worth it? If noise marines had another -1 AP and a defensive trait would they be
Not really, no.
They are too unreliable, to brittle, to buff reliant and too cp intensive
I think that you'll find that pure melee units don't work out, but ranged ones mostly do. And that's the same thing for loyalists for the most part, but they don't have anything like possessed. A chaos equivalent set of special rules that was geared at melee units could make them viable I think. Of course, there's overall issues with melee in 8th too, so that will complicate matters.
Don't think so.
Further possessed have nothing to offer to us beyond the daemontag, so why not field the significantly less support needing cheaper Berzerkers.
The story would go a bit diffrent if possesed would get movement shenanigans and their support aswell ( looking at MoP, gp etc that don't have a jumppack or bike option)
An Actual Englishman wrote: Can someone post the points costs and statline of the various Cult Marines so we can compare them against other models?
Doubling the durability of a unit for no cost seems like an extremely sloppy, ill conceived way to "fix" a unit.
It's not really doubling the durability, only against D1 damage, but most guns good against marines in general are D2 allready.
Rubric: 4 Guardsmen ppm
Spoiler:
M5 WS3+ BS3+ S4 T4 W1 A1 MW7 SV3+
Includes Infernoboltgun which is 24" Rapid 1 S4 Ap-2 D1
Has an 5++ and lowers D by 1 ignores modifiers for movng an shooting for heavy weapons.
Khorne Berzerkers:4 Guardsmen without chainaxe 1/4th guardsmen most commonly with chain axe.
Spoiler:
M6 WS3+ BS3+ S5 T4 W1 A2 MW7 SV3+
Can fight twice normally. Chainaxe is +1 S and Ap-1. Profits ofcourse from the basic marine Meleebuff. Further gets Chainsword attack aswell.
Plague Marine: 4 Guardsmen
Spoiler:
M5 BS3+ S4 T5 W1 A1 MW7 SV3+
Has 5+++, gains an additional attack for running around with more then normal cuttlery. Gains plague nades, which are frags that reroll 1s to wound and Dirty Shivvs supposedly that also reroll 1 to wound aswell as your average bolter.
Noise Marine: 3.75 Guardsmen . 1 Guardsmen for Sonic blaster. ( the normal bolter just beeing better now thanks to bolter discipline.)
Spoiler:
B6 WS3+ BS3+ S4 T4 W1 A2 MW7 SV3+
Has their random mechanic that if one dies he does a free round of attack before.Including suicide bombing even when within 1" of enemies.
Possesed, Simply here due to the debate above 5 Guardsmen
Spoiler:
B7 WS3+ BS3+ S5 T4 W2 A D3 MW8 SV3+
Is a daemon, baseline -2AP
Measurements in Guardsmen Infantry squads in order to not violate Dakkas rules.
It's not really doubling the durability, only against D1 damage, but most guns good against marines in general are D2 allready.
I've seen this claimed a bunch of times now and it doesn't really make any sense. Most weapons are good against marines point for point, except perhaps new SM with some of the defensive buff traits. Marines don't have any special extra durability against small arms (again, point for point.) The second wound makes a big difference between getting gunned down by lasguns or bolters.
A lot of D2 weapons are going to be low volume of shot heavy weapons needed vs vehicles. Plasma melts marines of course, but its not spammed as heavily these days.
Bolters and lasguns are too good at gunning down elite infantry though, which is the main reason why elite infantry with one wound sees next to no play unless it's massively benefiting from force multipliers and stratagems.
Four free bolters kill exactly as many marines as the 11 point overcharged plasma gun, which is supposed to be a hard-counter to marines and has a chance to kill its firer.
"most weapons are good against marines" is not something good, it's something bad. A unit that can be killed efficiently by all weapons is never worth taking.
IMO Marines should have been W2/A2 from the outset and Primaris should have been nothing more than an updated Marine design. But no, instead we got super-Marines. This in a design space so overcrowded that all new models have to be equipped with TCAS.
I think it was a horrible misstep for a variety of reasons, but the fact remains that this is the path GW have chosen. And that being the case, i fear I'll have to oppose adding extra wounds to cult CSMs.
Please don't see this as me saying that Chaos are fine - far from it. Rather, my objection is that if this sort of thing persists then this edition is going to be more 'fixes' than actual content. It'll be like doctors peeling back layer upon layer of bandages only to realise that their patient died months ago and there's now nothing left but a mass of bandages.
I almost think it would be better to instead move into 9th edition and try for some core rules that aren't complete garbage. So that we're not trying to build an entire edition on a foundation of breadsticks.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Can someone post the points costs and statline of the various Cult Marines so we can compare them against other models?
Doubling the durability of a unit for no cost seems like an extremely sloppy, ill conceived way to "fix" a unit.
It's not really doubling the durability, only against D1 damage, but most guns good against marines in general are D2 allready.
Rubric: 4 Guardsmen ppm
Spoiler:
M5 WS3+ BS3+ S4 T4 W1 A1 MW7 SV3+
Includes Infernoboltgun which is 24" Rapid 1 S4 Ap-2 D1
Has an 5++ and lowers D by 1 ignores modifiers for movng an shooting for heavy weapons.
Khorne Berzerkers:4 Guardsmen without chainaxe 1/4th guardsmen most commonly with chain axe.
Spoiler:
M6 WS3+ BS3+ S5 T4 W1 A2 MW7 SV3+
Can fight twice normally. Chainaxe is +1 S and Ap-1. Profits ofcourse from the basic marine Meleebuff. Further gets Chainsword attack aswell.
Plague Marine: 4 Guardsmen
Spoiler:
M5 BS3+ S4 T5 W1 A1 MW7 SV3+
Has 5+++, gains an additional attack for running around with more then normal cuttlery. Gains plague nades, which are frags that reroll 1s to wound and Dirty Shivvs supposedly that also reroll 1 to wound aswell as your average bolter.
Noise Marine: 3.75 Guardsmen . 1 Guardsmen for Sonic blaster. ( the normal bolter just beeing better now thanks to bolter discipline.)
Spoiler:
B6 WS3+ BS3+ S4 T4 W1 A2 MW7 SV3+
Has their random mechanic that if one dies he does a free round of attack before.Including suicide bombing even when within 1" of enemies.
Possesed, Simply here due to the debate above 5 Guardsmen
Spoiler:
B7 WS3+ BS3+ S5 T4 W2 A D3 MW8 SV3+
Is a daemon, baseline -2AP
Measurements in Guardsmen Infantry squads in order to not violate Dakkas rules.
Thank you for this.
I'd argue that Rubrics and Plague Marines get way more durability from this buff. Likely Berserkers too as they're supposed to be used in melee where most successful units have many, low AP attacks rather than a few high AP attacks.
Compared to Nobz, most of these at 2W seem simply better point for point. Berserkers, Rubrics and Plague Marines vastly so, Noise Marines less so but I understand they love themselves a stratagem.
vipoid wrote: IMO Marines should have been W2/A2 from the outset and Primaris should have been nothing more than an updated Marine design. But no, instead we got super-Marines. This in a design space so overcrowded that all new models have to be equipped with TCAS.
I think it was a horrible misstep for a variety of reasons, but the fact remains that this is the path GW have chosen. And that being the case, i fear I'll have to oppose adding extra wounds to cult CSMs.
Please don't see this as me saying that Chaos are fine - far from it. Rather, my objection is that if this sort of thing persists then this edition is going to be more 'fixes' than actual content. It'll be like doctors peeling back layer upon layer of bandages only to realise that their patient died months ago and there's now nothing left but a mass of bandages.
I almost think it would be better to instead move into 9th edition and try for some core rules that aren't complete garbage. So that we're not trying to build an entire edition on a foundation of breadsticks.
Understandable conviction really.
But frankly not going to happen. GW will first milk those sweet sweet 8th edition rulesets to sell to you.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Compared to Nobz, most of these at 2W seem simply better point for point. Berserkers, Rubrics and Plague Marines vastly so, Noise Marines less so but I understand they love themselves a stratagem.
Nobz suck though, so why would you compare a unit to them if you want to fix it?
I'd argue that Rubrics and Plague Marines get way more durability from this buff. Likely Berserkers too as they're supposed to be used in melee where most successful units have many, low AP attacks rather than a few high AP attacks.
Compared to Nobz, most of these at 2W seem simply better point for point. Berserkers, Rubrics and Plague Marines vastly so, Noise Marines less so but I understand they love themselves a stratagem.
Rubrics and PM get the most out of this, yes. Especially against weapons like lasguns and boltguns. (which indirectly would do something against the stupid doctrine AP that cripples all other 3+ sv armies.)
However berzerks, regardless if 1 or 2 W , still suffer from the lack of movemment shenanigans. And no footsloging isn't really an option imo.
As for noise marines.
Wasting cacophony on noise marines, or indeed even giving them their signature standard weapon (sonic blaster) is just bad. Espcially considering that YOU NEED these Stratagems and points used on your key units to get CSM even on par of some other units effectiveness.
The big winners will be Rubric and Plague marines. Berzerkers don't care and noise marines , well they get a spike in power, but frankly are in such a bad position what with Bolter discipline not even effecting their main weapon if you pay for it and beeing more pricey for the same stats than the more versatile chosen which don't really hit the table often would not really do anything remotely good enough.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Compared to Nobz, most of these at 2W seem simply better point for point. Berserkers, Rubrics and Plague Marines vastly so, Noise Marines less so but I understand they love themselves a stratagem.
Nobz suck though, so why would you compare a unit to them if you want to fix it?
It's honestly a shame what happened to nobs, imo atleast, they are probably the best sculpted Ork mini out there, so that even my delusioned former orkyness had a bunch of them
vipoid wrote: I almost think it would be better to instead move into 9th edition and try for some core rules that aren't complete garbage. So that we're not trying to build an entire edition on a foundation of breadsticks.
No game has ever become successful by dropping new rules on a clean slate though.
While sweeping changes are necessary, a new edition of rules with completely reset any progress having a fun an balanced game, plus the vast majority of armies would be stuck with their old rules for at least a year, some for two years.
The only reasons I see for a new edition would be removing IGOUGO, or completely changing how stat lines work. But the later would require another index era, which I doubt would be accepted kindly by most players unless they drop the book nonsense and move to free rules (they wont).
In my opinion most current issues with the game come from what's printed inside codices, and that can be changed without launching a new edition. I also don't think that applying what they've learned to be working in AoS - moving elite infantry to 2W - is a bandage. Iterative changes to a ruleset is how good rule sets are created, your dying patient analogy implies that this is a bad thing, when it's really the only way to move forward.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Compared to Nobz, most of these at 2W seem simply better point for point. Berserkers, Rubrics and Plague Marines vastly so, Noise Marines less so but I understand they love themselves a stratagem.
Nobz suck though, so why would you compare a unit to them if you want to fix it?
It's honestly a shame what happened to nobs, imo atleast, they are probably the best sculpted Ork mini out there, so that even my delusioned former orkyness had a bunch of them
That's what taking away 5++, 5+++, +1 to hit, the ability to reliably kill vehicles and charging from transports does to a unit. Give back all that was taken from them, and they are fixed.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Compared to Nobz, most of these at 2W seem simply better point for point. Berserkers, Rubrics and Plague Marines vastly so, Noise Marines less so but I understand they love themselves a stratagem.
Nobz suck though, so why would you compare a unit to them if you want to fix it?
Nobz aren't bad, they just lack focus and are superseded by Boyz generally. They're probably well balanced to be fair.
How do they lack focus? They are an expensive melee specialist unit that fails at killing things in melee and more often than not gets killed by non-combat experts like intercessors.
There is a good reason why no one is running them and it's not just because they don't generate CP.
Agreed, Nobz could do with a drastic cost reduction or some sort of boost to their killiness (or both!). They're a victim of how melee works in 8th though.
Jidmah wrote: How do they lack focus? They are an expensive melee specialist unit that fails at killing things in melee and more often than not gets killed by non-combat experts like intercessors.
There is a good reason why no one is running them and it's not just because they don't generate CP.
5 attack dual choppa nobz are OK for their price.
The reason they lack focus is because their melee weapon options are too expensive - both the Big Choppa and Power Klaws are too expensive, weak or both. But I've still seen Nobz taken in competitive lists - taken with kustom shootas and choppa pre index bans if I recall.
Granted this was before the Marine buffs, but are Marines supposes to be the new benchmark now?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Agreed, Nobz could do with a drastic cost reduction or some sort of boost to their killiness (or both!). They're a victim of how melee works in 8th though.
Dunno about a massive reduction - maybe a bit because marines. Pretty killy, too. Maybe base 6 fnp and docs increase fnp by 1.
vipoid wrote: I almost think it would be better to instead move into 9th edition and try for some core rules that aren't complete garbage. So that we're not trying to build an entire edition on a foundation of breadsticks.
No game has ever become successful by dropping new rules on a clean slate though.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Surely every edition of 40k thus far has done this?
The only reasons I see for a new edition would be removing IGOUGO, or completely changing how stat lines work. But the later would require another index era, which I doubt would be accepted kindly by most players unless they drop the book nonsense and move to free rules (they wont).
Removing IGOUGO would open some interesting options but I really don't see it happening.
Regardless, I don't think that those are the only reasons to change editions. I would suggest that one could also change core aspects such as the psychic phase (I don't *hate* the current iteration but it's very flat and doesn't open itself to much thought or strategy) and Stratagems (which I should suggest should be removed and burned in their entirety ). It could also be used to change design philosophies for armies - e.g. not shoving reroll 1 auras/abilities onto everything, and perhaps refining weapon mechanics to reduce some of the pointless randomness and other such.
(I know that people will probably disagree with whether some of the above are necessary - I'm just trying to give some examples of other aspects of the game which are a lot harder to fix retroactively.)
In my opinion most current issues with the game come from what's printed inside codices, and that can be changed without launching a new edition. I also don't think that applying what they've learned to be working in AoS - moving elite infantry to 2W - is a bandage. Iterative changes to a ruleset is how good rule sets are created, your dying patient analogy implies that this is a bad thing, when it's really the only way to move forward.
I fear we might have to agree to disagree on that particular point. I'll grant that a lot problems comes from stuff in individual codices, however, I believe a major reason for this is that the core rules are so weak and anaemic that individual codices basically have to do half their work for them.
vipoid wrote: I almost think it would be better to instead move into 9th edition and try for some core rules that aren't complete garbage. So that we're not trying to build an entire edition on a foundation of breadsticks.
No game has ever become successful by dropping new rules on a clean slate though.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Surely every edition of 40k thus far has done this?
Yes, and for that reason we are looking at a two year old game now, with three decades of experience wasted. If they had continuously improved 3rd edition without throwing out the baby with the tub every few years, we would be looking at a game with a lot less basic design mistakes.
Jidmah wrote: Regardless, I don't think that those are the only reasons to change editions. I would suggest that one could also change core aspects such as the psychic phase (I don't *hate* the current iteration but it's very flat and doesn't open itself to much thought or strategy) and Stratagems (which I should suggest should be removed and burned in their entirety ).
That's just change for the sake of change though. There is no actual reason to do that.
It could also be used to change design philosophies for armies - e.g. not shoving reroll 1 auras/abilities onto everything, and perhaps refining weapon mechanics to reduce some of the pointless randomness and other such.
None of that requires a new edition though, just new codices. You could even errata to the worst offenders - re-roll ones isn't bad until you have to do it for every one your army ever rolls.
In my opinion most current issues with the game come from what's printed inside codices, and that can be changed without launching a new edition. I also don't think that applying what they've learned to be working in AoS - moving elite infantry to 2W - is a bandage. Iterative changes to a ruleset is how good rule sets are created, your dying patient analogy implies that this is a bad thing, when it's really the only way to move forward.
I fear we might have to agree to disagree on that particular point. I'll grant that a lot problems comes from stuff in individual codices, however, I believe a major reason for this is that the core rules are so weak and anaemic that individual codices basically have to do half their work for them.
I think I understand where our disagreement comes from - when you are talking about a new edition, you mean new books for everyone. I assumed you just meant dropping a new BRB. The thing is, we just barely got dones "new books for everyone" for this edition until sisters drop, and the time for armies who were near the end of the line (like orks) was anything but fun.
True. And even if 9th is released soon, there's also no guarantee that it will be an improvement over 8th.
If 9th gets released, I wouldn't expect anything but minor changes, kind of like 6th=>7th. They are not going to kill the most successful edition ever.
True. And even if 9th is released soon, there's also no guarantee that it will be an improvement over 8th.
If 9th gets released, I wouldn't expect anything but minor changes, kind of like 6th=>7th. They are not going to kill the most successful edition ever.
They're just going to stack bloat on top of it until it falls over and they need to reboot it again, the way they've done with every edition.
Pretty much every issue we're seeeing in 8th is downstream of a few system wide rules changes + new features that weren't adjusted for.
1) The change to AP fundamentally altered the effectiveness of certain weapons and save values. In general, good armor saves got less efficient, and lots of small arms got less effective at killing hordes. Bolters used to completely ignore 5+ saves. Anything short of plasma didn't alter a Marine's chance to save against it.
2) Massive increases in firepower from a variety of sources with few increases to durability (auras, strats, etc)
3) Reduction of value of melee due to greater ability to kill it at range, reduced efficiency of transports, lack of ability to lock in close combat
4) More options for anti-everything weaponry made possible by the changes to vehicles and restatting of certain weapons (why is plasma s7 and overchaged s8? It should be s6 and s7)
5) The loss of effectiveness of anti horde weapons due to the AP changes, blast template changes, and other changes that lead to units needing to clump up less (deep strike doesn't force a clump, you can disembark from transports in a wider spread, and nobody uses transports anyway). A flamer template used to reliably hit 5+ units when shooting hordes and ignore their armor, now it averages 3.5 and they get armor saves.
The result of all this is that infantry roles have gotten totally scrambled and generally lost. Back in, say, 5th edition, there was a clear delineation between horde infantry, middle ground, and heavy infantry, with regular marines kind of in the middle of middle and heavy. In this old balance, small arms fire was effective at killing models off hordes, but not killing them point for point. But the right special weapon in the right place was super effective. And massed small arms from a horde wasn't efficient at killing MeQs, but with the right special weapons mixed in, it could work. Against heavy infantry the small arms was even less effective, but the special weapons more effective. And the weapons that were good for killing heavy infantry could also hurt light vehicles, but not heavy ones.
All of this nuance, the counter system and tradeoffs of different loadouts is now gone. The same weapons that kill horde infantry kill heavy infantry very effectively. Plasma kills heavy infantry even MORE effectively. And kills heavy vehicles. And hey, its not even that ineffective against hordes, point for point.
Most of these issues with unit balance come from the loss of these proper roles. To get them restored would mean doing something like giving MeQs 2W base (or defensive buffs that are equivalent), and putting heavy infantry to 3 or even 4w. Even a bunch of non-meq heavier infantry could use a 2nd wound. Like Incubi and aspect warriors even.
I don't for one want to see any more changes to 8th. It already costs a "new" player about $100 in books alone, before he even cracks a box on a model. BRB 50. Space Marines. 30. with tax depending on your state it's around 100. That's if they DONT go into the special chapters that are HEAVILY pushed on them by marketing.
Then he needs to buy faqs, CAs, and other special books. No, 8th is too bloated as is. I've seen it in stores, where a kid comes in because he wants to get into the hobby. But he can't play without the books, and the models, and the dice, and our special paints, and heres a cup for holding water that costs 8 bucks.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't for one want to see any more changes to 8th. It already costs a "new" player about $100 in books alone, before he even cracks a box on a model. BRB 50. Space Marines. 30. with tax depending on your state it's around 100. That's if they DONT go into the special chapters that are HEAVILY pushed on them by marketing.
Then he needs to buy faqs, CAs, and other special books. No, 8th is too bloated as is. I've seen it in stores, where a kid comes in because he wants to get into the hobby. But he can't play without the books, and the models, and the dice, and our special paints, and heres a cup for holding water that costs 8 bucks.
Kid walks out.
Yeah it's a big problem. More and more its looking like the only way for them to get out of this mess is a living, online ruleset. Preferably free. But we've all known this for years.
Then he needs to buy faqs, CAs, and other special books. No, 8th is too bloated as is. I've seen it in stores, where a kid comes in because he wants to get into the hobby. But he can't play without the books, and the models, and the dice, and our special paints, and heres a cup for holding water that costs 8 bucks.
Kid walks out.
I also like to make up stories on the internet.
Models dont need to be painted.
A full army is not required.
Supplements aren't needed to play. Nor are FAQs or CA.
D6 dice are super rare though.
It's a little ridiculous that craft this straw man narrative of a kid who instantly needs to be in the competitive scene to enjoy the hobby.
True. And even if 9th is released soon, there's also no guarantee that it will be an improvement over 8th.
If 9th gets released, I wouldn't expect anything but minor changes, kind of like 6th=>7th. They are not going to kill the most successful edition ever.
They're just going to stack bloat on top of it until it falls over and they need to reboot it again, the way they've done with every edition.
Yes, and for that reason we are looking at a two year old game now, with three decades of experience wasted. If they had continuously improved 3rd edition without throwing out the baby with the tub every few years, we would be looking at a game with a lot less basic design mistakes.
I don't disagree.
Unfortunately, newer editions tend to be sidegrades of old ones, rather than actual improvements.
That's just change for the sake of change though. There is no actual reason to do that.
Once again I have to disagree. Stratagems are nothing but worthless clutter that turn the game into MTG. 40k has survived without them for 7 editions so I really don't see why they are so desperately needed in 8th, save perhaps to make it feel less shallow. As for the psychic phase, are you trying to argue that a complete lack of any depth or strategy is somehow a good thing? Because that seems a strange argument to make.
None of that requires a new edition though, just new codices. You could even errata to the worst offenders - re-roll ones isn't bad until you have to do it for every one your army ever rolls.
Okay. But now we're basically changing everything *except* the BRB. Why not take one more step and fix the abysmal core rules, rather than trying to endlessly patch everything else?
I think I understand where our disagreement comes from - when you are talking about a new edition, you mean new books for everyone. I assumed you just meant dropping a new BRB.
Indeed. I wasn't just talking about a new BRB.
Jidmah wrote: The thing is, we just barely got dones "new books for everyone" for this edition until sisters drop, and the time for armies who were near the end of the line (like orks) was anything but fun.
Are Ork players having fun currently? Serious question.
Regardless, I appreciate that many codices haven't been out for long - hence why I said this would be an unpopular opinion.
However, the current state of books is an absolute mess. We've got rules scattered across God knows how many codices, faqs, designer's commentaries, CA, expansions, supplements etc. We've got armies with 1st edition codices, we've got armies with 2nd edition codices that are just compilations, we've got an army with a 2nd edition codex that made sweeping changes, we've got armies that are still waiting for any codex at all. And it's clear that the bloat is only going to get worse with yet more supplements already on the way.
Just to be clear - I know 9th isn't going to happen any time and even if it did it would improve bugger-all because GW would just make the same mistakes they always make, so really it's academic ad this point.
If 9th gets released, I wouldn't expect anything but minor changes, kind of like 6th=>7th. They are not going to kill the most successful edition ever.
Maybe they could just make it a compilation edition.
In my opinion most current issues with the game come from what's printed inside codices, and that can be changed without launching a new edition. I also don't think that applying what they've learned to be working in AoS - moving elite infantry to 2W - is a bandage. Iterative changes to a ruleset is how good rule sets are created, your dying patient analogy implies that this is a bad thing, when it's really the only way to move forward.
I fear we might have to agree to disagree on that particular point. I'll grant that a lot problems comes from stuff in individual codices, however, I believe a major reason for this is that the core rules are so weak and anaemic that individual codices basically have to do half their work for them.
Yes this is why fixing codexes by themselves isn’t effective. Right now the game is about managing command points and various aura / trait bonuses. Classic fantasy had a core mechanic if getting flank charges and other combat rez bonuses. Epic has blast markers and activation rolls. 40k has command points. If you cleaned up the codexes and didn’t have an archipelago of stratagems and CO batteries you would have a really hollowed out game.
There’s no game unless 40k has some setting appropriate replacement for medieval block formations, 6mm epic blast tokens, or the bs accounting game that is 8th edition command points.
Going back to the original topic, one issue I see is that giving an extra wound to Cult Marines - and only Cult Marines - would seem very arbitrary.
I could maybe see an argument for Plague Marines having an extra wound (given that bloated, hard-to-kill monstrosities are Nurgle's thing), but Berzerkers or Noise Marines having twice as many wounds as CSMs seems like something of a head-scratcher.
vipoid wrote: Going back to the original topic, one issue I see is that giving an extra wound to Cult Marines - and only Cult Marines - would seem very arbitrary.
I could maybe see an argument for Plague Marines having an extra wound (given that bloated, hard-to-kill monstrosities are Nurgle's thing), but Berzerkers or Noise Marines having twice as many wounds as CSMs seems like something of a head-scratcher.
Better would be if chosen aswell get it as a neutral option.
But with that the baseline troops still remain an issue, the elite choices also still remain one, even noise marines have still one.
Models dont need to be painted.
A full army is not required.
Supplements aren't needed to play. Nor are FAQs or CA.
D6 dice are super rare though.
It's a little ridiculous that craft this straw man narrative of a kid who instantly needs to be in the competitive scene to enjoy the hobby.
okey how many games are people going to play against your 750pts army, when you have the wrong rules. Or try to do illegal stuff, because you read it in your codex? 2-3 times, and that is a big maybe . After that everyone expects you to at least use the proper rules. finding someone to play those under 2000pts games is your problem. Even if you start with people you know, all it takes for the whole thing to break is them getting units for their armies faster then you, they aren't going to wait and play 750pts when they have 1500 or are ready for the real games with 2000.
At the same time with some other games you don't have to start with an initial buy in of 100+$ in books Some games cost less then what GW makes people pay in books.
vipoid wrote: Once again I have to disagree. Stratagems are nothing but worthless clutter that turn the game into MTG. 40k has survived without them for 7 editions so I really don't see why they are so desperately needed in 8th, save perhaps to make it feel less shallow. As for the psychic phase, are you trying to argue that a complete lack of any depth or strategy is somehow a good thing? Because that seems a strange argument to make.
That is under the unproven assumption that all psychic powers and stratagems actually lack any depth or strategy. Let's not argue that in that in this thread.
Okay. But now we're basically changing everything *except* the BRB. Why not take one more step and fix the abysmal core rules, rather than trying to endlessly patch everything else?
My point was that none of the things actually are in the core rules. You could fully re-write the entire game into new turn orders, new psychic powers and without stratagems and marines would still have codices full of re-roll everything, all the time.
Are Ork players having fun currently? Serious question.
Most were until SM 2.0 happened. There are always people who will never stop complaining and those whose collection/favorite models got invalidated by an edition change, but in general orks are were in a very good place from casual to top competitive.
However, the current state of books is an absolute mess. We've got rules scattered across God knows how many codices, faqs, designer's commentaries, CA, expansions, supplements etc. We've got armies with 1st edition codices, we've got armies with 2nd edition codices that are just compilations, we've got an army with a 2nd edition codex that made sweeping changes, we've got armies that are still waiting for any codex at all. And it's clear that the bloat is only going to get worse with yet more supplements already on the way.
Just to be clear - I know 9th isn't going to happen any time and even if it did it would improve bugger-all because GW would just make the same mistakes they always make, so really it's academic ad this point.
This was pretty much the point I was trying to make A new edition will just have GW make the same mistakes all over again, and we lose any progress they have made during this edition.
They also really need to move to a living online rule set... half the bloat issue comes from needing to buy a book because you got two new stratagems. There is this russian webpage which does an awesome job at proving all of 40k's rules within seconds - whether they are from the BRB, codex, supplement, white dwarf or some obscure blackstone fortress expansion. GW could just do the same. Multiple people have even expressed willingness to pay for something like that regularly.
Models dont need to be painted.
A full army is not required.
Supplements aren't needed to play. Nor are FAQs or CA.
D6 dice are super rare though.
It's a little ridiculous that craft this straw man narrative of a kid who instantly needs to be in the competitive scene to enjoy the hobby.
okey how many games are people going to play against your 750pts army, when you have the wrong rules. Or try to do illegal stuff, because you read it in your codex? 2-3 times, and that is a big maybe . After that everyone expects you to at least use the proper rules. finding someone to play those under 2000pts games is your problem. Even if you start with people you know, all it takes for the whole thing to break is them getting units for their armies faster then you, they aren't going to wait and play 750pts when they have 1500 or are ready for the real games with 2000.
At the same time with some other games you don't have to start with an initial buy in of 100+$ in books Some games cost less then what GW makes people pay in books.
This is what you people dont understand. There is a whole universe of people playing in their garage with friends that dont give a gak and will never see a tournament.
There are more who are in grow leagues collecting and learning.
This concept that everyone needs to be fully up and running competitively to enjoy the game isn't true in the slightest.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And if you truly enjoy the hobby you dont act like an absurd bell end in an attempt to drive them away.
I built my armies over 25 years.
If you think the hobby isn't worth it then stop playing.
As far as I know 7th had GW charge peope up to $20 for single-page PDFs. But I dropped the game right after orks got their "decurion", which was just two pages of "feth you!" with ork font.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: A flamer template used to reliably hit 5+ units when shooting hordes and ignore their armor, now it averages 3.5 and they get armor saves.
Uh, what?
It used to average 1-2 units if enemy knew what he was doing, spreading his 4 pts models to maximum coherency and forming single file and other convoluted formations which took frakking forever. Today, you not only don't have to worry about this nonsense, you also don't get big fat ZERO hits (because you couldn't place template without clipping 0.01 mm of your other model base), if you had a chance to fire your flamer at all because being shortest range weapon in the squad, it was also first to go due to front casualties first rule. Nostalgia glasses much?
Funny you mention armor saves, too, because that was often very off-putting thing to face. I still remember how well IG player I was teaching how to play 40K took the news my deep struck heavy flamer not only wounds his command squad on 2+, instead of 3+ he was expecting, but AP4 meant his lovingly converted grenadiers (upgraded to carapace to have save from SM weapons) get no save at all despite standing in cover - just stared at me for a bit hearing the whole squad was vaporized without any interaction. In 8th edition, I'd at least not felt like I just kicked a puppy.
You mean 0% effective as tactical squad could only shoot their melta at the tank if all other bolter dudes stood and cheered him while ignoring infantry all around them, if you actually wanted to fire bolters the melta guy just stood there slack jawed suddenly forgetting what the trigger is
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Plasma kills heavy infantry even MORE effectively. And kills heavy vehicles. And hey, its not even that ineffective against hordes, point for point.
Throw away these trash nostalgia googles, you act like plasma didn't already did all that (and more) in past editions. Spoiler alert - it did. Funnily enough, in 8th armour does more against plasma it ever did, completely invalidating the above, vehicles are also more resilent because with AP2 and rapid fire it was much easier to fish for wrecked or explodes than to chew through pile of wounds vehicles have now...
Man, when GW paywalled WC and their download section? I totally missed that
Or you know, instead of dumb hyperbole, you can give the kid the FREE rules available in every GW store, direct them to wahapedia/battlescribe to make his first army, and only tell him to buy books as an afterthought once he/she collects like 500-1000 points. But that would have spoiled the narration, eh?
It does what it is supposed to do.
Allow you to play your first games with minimal material available and not caring particularly how you equip your first squads.
If you want to use it for competitive play then it's obviously not going to work, but that would be like using a fork to eat soup. The spoon right next to it is obviously the better choice.
Spoletta wrote: It does what it is supposed to do.
Allow you to play your first games with minimal material available and not caring particularly how you equip your first squads.
If you want to use it for competitive play then it's obviously not going to work, but that would be like using a fork to eat soup. The spoon right next to it is obviously the better choice.
Right tools for the right jobs.
That's a crap excuse if I've ever seen one.
It doesn't matter if you don't care how you load up squads. The problem is Power Level not taking anything into account, like if someone decided their Deathwatch was 4 Frag Cannons and all Storm Shields and Storm Bolters.
Spoletta wrote: It does what it is supposed to do.
Allow you to play your first games with minimal material available and not caring particularly how you equip your first squads.
If you want to use it for competitive play then it's obviously not going to work, but that would be like using a fork to eat soup. The spoon right next to it is obviously the better choice.
Right tools for the right jobs.
That's a crap excuse if I've ever seen one.
It doesn't matter if you don't care how you load up squads. The problem is Power Level not taking anything into account, like if someone decided their Deathwatch was 4 Frag Cannons and all Storm Shields and Storm Bolters.
Power level is good enough for kids learning the game and its incredibly unlikely theyd wind up choosing 4 frag cannons., because they're going to build the pieces from the kit they like
TheAvengingKnee wrote: No, 2 wounds would not fix them as their points would probably go up, also D2 weapons super popular weapons in many armies anymore.
Rubrics are pretty tough, they will be pretty good with 2 wounds.
I hope they don`t forget to give 2 wounds to the immortals.
vipoid wrote: Going back to the original topic, one issue I see is that giving an extra wound to Cult Marines - and only Cult Marines - would seem very arbitrary.
I could maybe see an argument for Plague Marines having an extra wound (given that bloated, hard-to-kill monstrosities are Nurgle's thing), but Berzerkers or Noise Marines having twice as many wounds as CSMs seems like something of a head-scratcher.
I think cult marines all have the mark of their god. The interpretation should be that there’s a difference between devotees and people who have actually earned the mark bestowed by their god. They can have two wounds the way that any character has extra wounds, they don’t need extra organs or a special chaos power up.
Chaos warbands don’t have a flat hierarchy like loyalists who have the same profile for every squad. The 3+ 3+ 4 4 etc profile should be much less common for chaos marines. Not only should cult marines be better than standard loyalists, but troop choice chaos marines should be weaker than standard loyalists.
It used to average 1-2 units if enemy knew what he was doing, spreading his 4 pts models to maximum coherency and forming single file and other convoluted formations which took frakking forever. Today, you not only don't have to worry about this nonsense, you also don't get big fat ZERO hits (because you couldn't place template without clipping 0.01 mm of your other model base), if you had a chance to fire your flamer at all because being shortest range weapon in the squad, it was also first to go due to front casualties first rule. Nostalgia glasses much?
Are you playing on boards with no terrain and no vehicles? And you aren't blocking someone in? Not setting up to flame deep strikes and disembarks? What're your saying can certainly happen, but if this was the norm for you, then you're doing it wrong.
Funny you mention armor saves, too, because that was often very off-putting thing to face. I still remember how well IG player I was teaching how to play 40K took the news my deep struck heavy flamer not only wounds his command squad on 2+, instead of 3+ he was expecting, but AP4 meant his lovingly converted grenadiers (upgraded to carapace to have save from SM weapons) get no save at all despite standing in cover - just stared at me for a bit hearing the whole squad was vaporized without any interaction. In 8th edition, I'd at least not felt like I just kicked a puppy.
What are you even trying to say here? Anti horde weapons can't be good because it made a friend of yours sad one time?
You mean 0% effective as tactical squad could only shoot their melta at the tank if all other bolter dudes stood and cheered him while ignoring infantry all around them, if you actually wanted to fire bolters the melta guy just stood there slack jawed suddenly forgetting what the trigger is
I'll be sure to call up my buddies and let them know that all those games I won from my CSM squads killing their vehicles with meltas were actually their win because that never happens. I'll let you handle informing all the tournament players from every past edition that they've been cheating or cheated against.
Throw away these trash nostalgia googles, you act like plasma didn't already did all that (and more) in past editions. Spoiler alert - it did. Funnily enough, in 8th armour does more against plasma it ever did, completely invalidating the above, vehicles are also more resilent because with AP2 and rapid fire it was much easier to fish for wrecked or explodes than to chew through pile of wounds vehicles have now...
Bruh, are you a parody account? In previous editions plasma COULD NOT EVEN DAMAGE AV14. How could armor possible do MORE than that now? Light vehicles could be killed by plasma, but even vs AV 11 or 12, it still took a fair amount of shots on average. If you were getting rear armor of 10 then it was quite effective, but that required a bunch of stuff to go right. And shooting your plasma that killed you 1/6th of the time with no re-roll at 4pt guardsmen was a terrible idea. They were not good to use vs hordes.
Do you even have an overall point you're trying to make here? Even if I am overestimating how effective flamer templates were in the past, or underestimating the effectiveness of plasma, am i wrong overall that the roles of units and the proportionate effectiveness of special weapons has changed, and this is effecting the statline incoherence we have in 8th?
well there is a slight problem with anti horde weapons, when they suddenly get extra AP and d2. Then they suddenly go from anti horde to anti everything. Not saying it is a specific chaos case though.
Karol wrote: well there is a slight problem with anti horde weapons, when they suddenly get extra AP and d2. Then they suddenly go from anti horde to anti everything. Not saying it is a specific chaos case though.
The more I think on this change the more I like it. It really puts a foot in the ass of IF.
The problem Khorne Berzerkers have is the problem of assault in 8th - although it was equally true in 7th.
Lots can go wrong for assaulting units.
You have to get over the table.
You have to eat overwatch.
You have to actually get a successful charge.
You have to not fluff your dice in the assault phase.
You have to consolidate such as to wrap up the opponent, or they can just walk off. If they can fly they can always just zip off (and shoot, because lol).
But then these days Khorne Berzerkers have what, effectively 8 attacks with a standard loadout on the charge? 6 At S6, AP-1 and 2 at S5 AP-? For 17 points a model that seems good. Its going to make a mess of anything it touches. So if you do shrug off all the issues above and make contact you probably win.
Which is the problem of assault - its too all or nothing, and this gets worse and worse with each buff shooting gets.
I mean people say they don't "work" - but they do in certain discrete games. Its just the odds of them failing on one of the above hurdles is high and so a lot of times they fail and you lose. But if they "worked" consistently you would always win, which would be a balance issue in the other direction.
This is the same issue with possessed mentioned previously. I mean a Primaris with a power axe and a 5++ doesn't sound like a bad unit and perhaps unsurprisingly as a result it isn't. But you still have all the problems mentioned above. You can play around buffing it up to the eyeballs - (over investment here is a mistake imo, but ymmv) - but its unlikely to ever be reliable enough to go 6-0 in a tournament, so isn't considered a meta issue.
Karol wrote: well there is a slight problem with anti horde weapons, when they suddenly get extra AP and d2. Then they suddenly go from anti horde to anti everything. Not saying it is a specific chaos case though.
The more I think on this change the more I like it. It really puts a foot in the ass of IF.
Go ahead. Shoot heavy bolters at my W2 rubrics.
I do actually support the idea of 2W cult marines, and Ruberic and Plague will be monstrously tough to shift, I love it!
Ruberic Marines in cover for example get 3+ 5++, All is dust allows them to add +1 to saves (this includes invun) against D1 weapons and add cover for a 2+ sv save vs ap1 d1 weapons. God I would love to see the look on that IF's players face when my unflinching tide of dusty boys weathers his shooting and ap-2 bolters with bolter discipline is still awesome. One of the few bolters which operate as good as back in 7th, if not better since 4+ universal cover save isn't a thing.
Or you pay further taxes in the form of CP / Icon.
You have to get over the table.
Biggest issue for Khorne berzekers and other melee infantry, even bigger one if you have no movement shenanigans.
You have to eat overwatch.
For most factions it's negliable, however if you run into Tau, IH or scourged (who am i kidding, scourged won't see the table ever). then the tune changes from a minuscule adverse effect to suddendly getting another shooting phase against you. Fun.
You have to actually get a successful charge.
Which means you have to migitate bad rolls, costing CP, Pts, and other ressources by consequence.
You have to consolidate such as to wrap up the opponent, or they can just walk off. If they can fly they can always just zip off (and shoot, because lol).
In essence you need to abuse the movement system, do something wierd, and can just flat out deny fallback. However you need too, because you allready can't allow to NOT do it due to the points above.
In general the all or nothing has to come from the fact that if the unit isn't all or nothing, then melee is just strictly worse period.
Karol wrote: well there is a slight problem with anti horde weapons, when they suddenly get extra AP and d2. Then they suddenly go from anti horde to anti everything. Not saying it is a specific chaos case though.
The more I think on this change the more I like it. It really puts a foot in the ass of IF.
Go ahead. Shoot heavy bolters at my W2 rubrics.
Awesome. That just leaves 18 factions that are completely fethed when facing off against IF and the new Marines but who cares about them anyway, right?
Karol wrote: well there is a slight problem with anti horde weapons, when they suddenly get extra AP and d2. Then they suddenly go from anti horde to anti everything. Not saying it is a specific chaos case though.
The more I think on this change the more I like it. It really puts a foot in the ass of IF.
Go ahead. Shoot heavy bolters at my W2 rubrics.
Awesome. That just leaves 18 factions that are completely fethed when facing off against IF and the new Marines but who cares about them anyway, right?
It takes a dedicated person to get a positive post about a possible buff to Rubric Marines to be about how hard Orks have it, and yet you have succeeded.
Karol wrote: well there is a slight problem with anti horde weapons, when they suddenly get extra AP and d2. Then they suddenly go from anti horde to anti everything. Not saying it is a specific chaos case though.
The more I think on this change the more I like it. It really puts a foot in the ass of IF.
Go ahead. Shoot heavy bolters at my W2 rubrics.
Awesome. That just leaves 18 factions that are completely fethed when facing off against IF and the new Marines but who cares about them anyway, right?
It takes a dedicated person to get a positive post about a possible buff to Rubric Marines to be about how hard Orks have it, and yet you have succeeded.
he talks about 18 other factions.
Which i guess i partially true, i mean otoh he could be happy that 3 factions get now their hallmark units on the table, maybee, unlike his own faction thanks to gw.
Karol wrote: well there is a slight problem with anti horde weapons, when they suddenly get extra AP and d2. Then they suddenly go from anti horde to anti everything. Not saying it is a specific chaos case though.
The more I think on this change the more I like it. It really puts a foot in the ass of IF.
Go ahead. Shoot heavy bolters at my W2 rubrics.
Awesome. That just leaves 18 factions that are completely fethed when facing off against IF and the new Marines but who cares about them anyway, right?
It takes a dedicated person to get a positive post about a possible buff to Rubric Marines to be about how hard Orks have it, and yet you have succeeded.
he talks about 18 other factions.
Which i guess i partially true, i mean otoh he could be happy that 3 factions get now their hallmark units on the table, maybee, unlike his own faction thanks to gw.
Karol wrote: well there is a slight problem with anti horde weapons, when they suddenly get extra AP and d2. Then they suddenly go from anti horde to anti everything. Not saying it is a specific chaos case though.
The more I think on this change the more I like it. It really puts a foot in the ass of IF.
Go ahead. Shoot heavy bolters at my W2 rubrics.
Awesome. That just leaves 18 factions that are completely fethed when facing off against IF and the new Marines but who cares about them anyway, right?
Maybe wait for the changes before deciding what the other factions will do ?
How long should one wait? I started before the first CA, people kept telling I should wait. For CA, for FAQ, next CA, next FAQ. Now the cycle of book clearly finished, without my dudes being fixed, is it considered okey to after so long time to be kind of a unhappy about the whole wait thing, or not wanting to wait?
Or does the argument to wait reset with a bach of new books ?
Karol wrote: How long should one wait? I started before the first CA, people kept telling I should wait. For CA, for FAQ, next CA, next FAQ. Now the cycle of book clearly finished, without my dudes being fixed, is it considered okey to after so long time to be kind of a unhappy about the whole wait thing, or not wanting to wait?
Or does the argument to wait reset with a bach of new books ?
Grey knights get screwed by poor design by the book and GW decision to nerf that rule.
Don`t forget they tried to help them with alot of pts decreases in CA 2018. I`m not sure if they can fix them without codex rework.
But since you tormented me in other topic, i`ll tell you GK got 66.67% WR in SoCal, so get good scrub - Joking ofcourse
Karol wrote: How long should one wait? I started before the first CA, people kept telling I should wait. For CA, for FAQ, next CA, next FAQ. Now the cycle of book clearly finished, without my dudes being fixed, is it considered okey to after so long time to be kind of a unhappy about the whole wait thing, or not wanting to wait?
Or does the argument to wait reset with a bach of new books ?
In this case Karol the arguement is "wait toi judge an upcoming product until it's in our hands"
As for "how long is too long for my army to suck?" that's really entirely up to you. in 40k if your army sucks you have 3/4 choices. Choice 1: wait it out. Choice 2: quit the game. (and maybe return when you hear your army is in a better place) choice 3a: buy new units for your army to shore up weaknesses. 3b: start a brand new army.
The choice in that regard is yours and no one can make it for you. waiting a few years for a codex that gives you a good place might be doablre for some people, others might be happy to start a new army. others might be in a place where 2 tweks to their list and they go from suck to "OMG OP!" ultimately the choice is yours.
Frankly if grey knights where my ONLY army... I'd invest in a new one myself. I've got grey knights, love the minis, but there's no little varity in the kits I cou;dn't stand for them to be my ONLY army, but I love the modeling/painting aspect of 40k.
That does make more sense. I can't afford a new army though, I can't even sell GK here, and I can't leave the game without getting at least something out of it.
Don`t forget they tried to help them with alot of pts decreases in CA 2018
that is actualy not true. They droped points on draigo and the NDK GM for what ever reason, and the dreads, because marine dreads were going down in points too. But the real marine point drops missed marines. We don't have primaris, we have one model with a storm shield in the entire army. They cut the cost of techmarine in half to cost more like the marine one, but forgot to add the option of taking the canon. The write up pre CA had stuff about how purfires and paladins becoming an option to play with, and they had zero point changes. In fact there were more then a few armies that had more impactful drops, that were better then GK.
But since you tormented me in other topic, i`ll tell you GK got 66.67% WR in SoCal, so get good scrub - Joking ofcourse
how did the list look like? most GK armies I have seen that win anything, have either non of the models I own, or have a lot of ally in them. Plus a 66% win ratio over few armies doesn't point at much. If you play 6 games and lose first two, drop in the lower brackets then with luck you can get 66%. specially if you end up with a mirror, buy or someone droping out giving you free points.
Karol wrote: well there is a slight problem with anti horde weapons, when they suddenly get extra AP and d2. Then they suddenly go from anti horde to anti everything. Not saying it is a specific chaos case though.
The more I think on this change the more I like it. It really puts a foot in the ass of IF.
Go ahead. Shoot heavy bolters at my W2 rubrics.
Awesome. That just leaves 18 factions that are completely fethed when facing off against IF and the new Marines but who cares about them anyway, right?
Players have to consider the meta when making a list. If Rubric marines are a strong presence then IF will naturally have to account for it. So, gamble at not encountering a heavy skew list or make the appropriate adjustments. Other cult marines could make them think twice as well.
Yeah, the Chaos Marine profile has no place in the codex which is why it should be tossed out in favor of making Chosen the base Troops.
I'm not wrong. The entry is really only there for Renegades, which would be better represented through the Loyalist codex via switching of keywords.
I've been over this multiple times.
Yes I would concur. I have only every seen Chaos/regular marine split handled well in Epic, where they had the same profile (at Epic scale lots of things have the same profile…) but handled very differently. The Loyalists had ATSKNF which is amazing in Epic, basically halving the effect of suppression, while the traitors had numbers (operating in the old Legion style) and always had a leader (8 units, one containing a Lord/Sorcerer for 315 points vs 6 units and 3 rhinos/drop pods for 300 points). So the traitors would hit harder but not have the same staying power, though their champion could rally them, while the loyalists could weather the storm and still hit back hard if they co-ordinated with other units. The loyalists would hang in there for each other while the traitors would far more easily slink off if the going got rough.
For 40k you have the old Legion veterans who have the experience but lack the regular training facilities and have a somewhat every man for himself attitude, the renegades who tend to have the better facilities as things haven’t deteriorated as much logistically but aren’t as experienced, and the loyalists which have constant training and hypnoinduction to fight as a cohesive whole. Should you see distinctive different between 10 marines with bolters from each group on the tabletop beyond their chapter traits? Or should it be an army wide feeling?
I have always been of the mindset that what Chaos needs to feel different than loyalist Marines is in what they get. Now I'm not sure if 2 wounds are the answer although I feel they buff up Cult troops who are mostly weak, all things considered (Zerkers and Rubrics get some use but the rest are meh).
First and foremost as I have said in the past, Chaos really should be 3-4 separate Codexes:
1) Traitor Legions 2) Chaos Daemons 3) Chaos Renegades (e.g. Red Corsairs, newer renegades) 4) Lost & the Damned (e.g. Traitor Guard, mutants)
The idea here is that you want to separate the idea of your actual traitors who have been in the Eye since the Heresy (yes, there's fluctuation there with replenishment and not ALL of them would have been around during the Heresy) with your more recently turned renegades who are closer to realspace. Without going too much into ideas for this (it would basically involve the renegades being able to take a lot more stuff from the regular SM armory, they WOULD essentially be "space marines with spikes") let me expand by Traitor thoughts as I feel GW keeps missing the opportunity or if they try to do something with it, generally make it weak.
Chaos in general and the Traitor Legions specifically should divest itself from the "use common weapons from the Heresy" dogma since 2nd edition (it worked back then, and hasn't really since). Instead, they should fully embrace the warp and the daemonic entities that live there. Unlike your Adeptus Mechanicus Tech-priests who refuse to experiment (for the most part) due to not understanding and only able to replicate STCs, your Chaos Hereteks and Warpsmiths have no such compunction. So embrace that. Chaos shouldn't use Flamers, they should use Baleflamers. They shouldn't use Autocannons, but Reaper (okay they already have this, but it's basically the same thing) and Hades autocannons. Ectoplasma instead of plasma. They shouldn't just have ported over Chaos vehicles, they should be more twisted and warped, maybe not full Daemon Engine as they can certainly look like something that once was a Rhino or a Predator or a Land Raider, but they should certainly look different. There has been some of this done with the daemon engines, especially the newer ones like the Venomcrawler or the Lord Discordant, but daemon engines have proven to be too weak to be of use in most cases (you get some outliers like that Lord Disco spam list) because they typically have better WS than BS so you want them as melee units and not ranged. The new Havocs are a good example of this, although I think they could have done a bit more with weapons.
Back to the Cult troops since I can wax all day about how I think they should fix Chaos and it wouldn't do any good. The issue with most of them is they are too expensive and don't offer much. My primary army is Death Guard, and despite having the 5+ FNP the army is pretty weak all things considered because Plague Marines are fairly expensive and die the same as any other MEQ unit. Would giving them 2 wounds fix this? Maybe. I think what we need to do is to look at similar units that see play. Intercessors, for example, see play fairly frequently (or they did as of a few months ago. The meta may have changed since then). So the question is why? What makes them useful with a MEQ statline and 2 wounds, and a slightly better bolter. Is it the 2 wounds? Is it the better weapon? Is it better synergy with buffs? That will reveal if 2 wound cult troops would be a worthwhile addition (I think it would be regardless but I mean more in the realm of making them see more play).
I know as a Death Guard player there is more hurting my army than *just* having bad core units like a highly limited army design, an outdated design approach that was quickly moved away from and never updated, etc. but a big problem with everything at the moment is there's an emphasis on quantity over quality. If a MEQ and a GEQ die just as fast, then why spend more on the MEQ when you can get 2 or even 3 GEQ for the same cost? As a result you see (or saw) more spamming of chaff units rather than using the better quality unit because in the end, they die to the same things (which is another issue but a much larger one. Things are TOO deadly, and therefore remove the benefit of using tougher, more elite units. Plasma is the biggest offender here).
TL;DR Cult troops with 2 wounds is a start (assuming no price increase). Think of why units like Intercessors with 2 wounds are seen fairly regularly while other MEQ are not, and that will indicate if 2 wound cult troops will be "enough".
Yup, Berzerkers get into melee and they kill anything..
Getting them into melee on the other hand.
I still giggle at the Rhino berserker bomb...
Drive your Rhino as close as possible to the enemy. Fire the combi bolter and combi plasma supercharged, even better if you can get it to be an assault weapon and assault (-2 instead of -1 - though this probably requires a Codex marine like boost to allow vehicles to benefit from Legion traits), preferably at a unit with -1 to hit (so at least -2). Try and explode... Blow up, disembark and engage!
You giggle, i find it stupid.
well technically i gigle aswell but it is annoying when other factions just get the disembark freely after movement whilest all other factions now can go and sulk in a corner.
That was the time i stopped personally.
Yup, Berzerkers get into melee and they kill anything..
Getting them into melee on the other hand.
I still giggle at the Rhino berserker bomb...
Drive your Rhino as close as possible to the enemy. Fire the combi bolter and combi plasma supercharged, even better if you can get it to be an assault weapon and assault (-2 instead of -1 - though this probably requires a Codex marine like boost to allow vehicles to benefit from Legion traits), preferably at a unit with -1 to hit (so at least -2). Try and explode... Blow up, disembark and engage!
Yup, Berzerkers get into melee and they kill anything..
Getting them into melee on the other hand.
I still giggle at the Rhino berserker bomb...
Drive your Rhino as close as possible to the enemy. Fire the combi bolter and combi plasma supercharged, even better if you can get it to be an assault weapon and assault (-2 instead of -1 - though this probably requires a Codex marine like boost to allow vehicles to benefit from Legion traits), preferably at a unit with -1 to hit (so at least -2). Try and explode... Blow up, disembark and engage!
This got FAQ'd out of existence.
Really? Oh no :( Does the plasma only do 1 wound now or something like that?
The_Real_Chris wrote: Really? Oh no :( Does the plasma only do 1 wound now or something like that?
You can still blow yourself up, but the FAQ specifically states that if you emergency disembark during a turn, then you can't declare a charge later that turn. Apparently it wasn't from the Combi-Plasma trick, but rather from people charging Rhinos with just 1 or 2 wounds left into enemies while dudes were in the Rhino, hoping that the Rhino would die on Overwatch, and then when it died from that the guys inside would be able to get out (far closer to the enemy) and still charge.
I think it's a good start. I'd then add a few more useful strategems as suggested below:
Khorne:
- Something to help with charge (maybe 3D6 range or a simple +6" - blood hunger) maybe even allow them to embark/disembark twice in a movement phase, once at end and once at start. MAYBE even something to shut down overwatch.
- Something to give some help against shooting (such as 'veil of rage' which gives -1 to hit that KB unit or they count as being in cover or maybe something that makes them count as a character)
Slannesh
- Something to help the AP of noise weapons (like -D3 in the phase the strat is used maybe like 'piercing frequency')
- Something to help in combat - maybe one to let them shoot instead of attack ('sweet wounds')
Tzeentch
- Something to polish off ruberic marines' shooting (like mortal wounds on a 6, 5+ against imperium - 'explosive rounds')
- Something to help them with combat deterrent (like, remove D3" from an opponents charge roll could be 'sorcerous mist'). Maybe even something like 'soul exhumation or wicked vengeance' when a rubricae is destroyed in melee, roll a D6. On a 4+ the attacking unit suffers a MW.
Nurgle
- Something to assist with speed ('Quick as the crypt or Slime Deluge' - may double advance)
- Something to help against tanks ('Rusted/Decayed Taint' - exchange normal shots or CC attacks for 1 attack each, doing 1 MW on a 5+ or D3 on a 6. Only works against vehicles and monsters)
Karol wrote: well there is a slight problem with anti horde weapons, when they suddenly get extra AP and d2. Then they suddenly go from anti horde to anti everything. Not saying it is a specific chaos case though.
The more I think on this change the more I like it. It really puts a foot in the ass of IF.
Go ahead. Shoot heavy bolters at my W2 rubrics.
Awesome. That just leaves 18 factions that are completely fethed when facing off against IF and the new Marines but who cares about them anyway, right?
It takes a dedicated person to get a positive post about a possible buff to Rubric Marines to be about how hard Orks have it, and yet you have succeeded.
he talks about 18 other factions.
Which i guess i partially true, i mean otoh he could be happy that 3 factions get now their hallmark units on the table, maybee, unlike his own faction thanks to gw.
So are you going to make D1 weapons cheaper or double their rate of fire to compensate for the fact that you're making things 2x as durable against them for free?
Factions like AM already get an obnoxious amount of firepower for the points it costs to field them. I've played against AM armies that can have (I could be fuzzy on exact numbers) a unit of I think 10 units throwing out 40 shots at me when I am trying to close distance with my troops. The weight of fire is already pretty crazy, so we don't need to see 1d weapons get a bump if we see a handful of troops go to 2W. I find that suggestion silly.
Edit - Now, it is fair to leave the door open for future changes, as we have seen GW do this edition. So if they did implement this change, and then it turns to be too much of a boost, we would see an adjustment. That being said, I still don't see how 1d weapons need a boost, because they certainly already provide plenty of punch in large number - which is how they should be used in this edition, yeah?
The weight of fire keeps getting pushed higher and higher because weaker weapons (particularly lasguns) are completely pointless without four shots a model. Consider a Space Marine in cover. 4+ to hit/5+ to wound/2+ save means you need 36 lasgun shots on average to remove that model. 72 lasgun shots if it's a Primaris Marine or a Cult CSM model under this proposed change. FRF/SRF exists because durability creep has squashed the bottom end to the point that lasguns are pretty pointless without it.
I think I agree with the concept of what your argument is, however what I have seen on the table just doesn't fall in line with your example. AM opponents I face are not having a hard time clearing troops. I lose squads of scouts and tac's to massive walls of lasgun fire all the time. The FRF/SRF is a delete button from my vantage point, and the troops are just so flippin cheap that you can field so many. Now, I believe that AM should be able to field those numbers because thats exactly what the AM is. You throw numbers at the enemy. That being said, increasing their baseline weapon is going to make them OP. You have a lot of tanks and other higer powered units to take on an opponents big stuff.
). It could also be used to change design philosophies for armies - e.g. not shoving reroll 1 auras/abilities onto everything, and perhaps refining weapon mechanics to reduce some of the pointless randomness and other such.
