EDIT: With useful feedback it's been brought to my attention that I should've been more clear on whom this book was being compared to. I am mostly comparing it to the 8.5 Marine dex with its various supplements. (Which I have a fair amount of experience with but I'm not the most well versed Marine player) Not a straight one to one comparison but vaguely how close these units would compete against the best in the current meta. The main thing that's been pointed out is the grade of the battle sisters squad. This compares to both a guard squad/Tactical squad/ primaris on how they would perform in battle.
Been playing sisters of battle since 3rd edition and survived through every heretic blasted dark day from 1999 to today. The day when I got my copy of the book and read it cover to cover. This is part one. The Miracle die, sacred rites and every unit graded on an A-F rating. This is my personal opinion. They are my thoughts in a theoretical sense, very limited gameplay and how they would be hypothetically used. I would appreciate feedback and will change descriptions and grades based on others experiences. It's late and part two, Holy orders, Strats, relics and warlord traits will be up tomorrow. So, without any more delay, let's get started. (I think I posted this in the wrong sub thread earlier so I'll repost it here)
MIRACLE DICE (MD):
Having never played AOS or Fantasy this was a new mechanic to me. They are gained in a variety of ways from killing a unit to losing a character. Warlord traits, character traits, a building and other ways. Used for almost all rolls. I can see the advantage. You must choose to substitute the die BEFORE you roll. So no rolling a bunch of to-hit rolls and then choosing to sub in a die afterwards. But if you need your overwatch melta to hit on a six and you HAVE a MD of a 6 saved. Then boom. However, only one act of faith can be performed per phase. (There are wargear options to change this) It APPEARS to be on a per squad basis. If this is true you can use multiple MD for the same squad. These cannot be modified in anyway (except a few character traits and wargear. However, there are abilities that let you burn off more useless die for added effects, which is pretty neat) Although I may be wrong. However, as a long time player I feel like it was probably a mistake to remove the old system. It needed tweaks not a complete overhaul. Something akin to a standard list of acts of faith that can be attempted (+1 to hit, -1AP, +3 move ect) that could be applied to units. Now, I haven't gotten any real games in with the new codex so we have to wait and see how powerful it is, but with having to choose the die BEFORE you roll and limited to one die per phase without other options. The investment in getting multiple per turn seems too great. It's a unique mechanic to 40K but I don't think it cuts it, especially with the loss of our old rules..
Grade: C- (This could be changed after rigorous play testing or if anyone on here has a good argument. I encourage you feedback on this, thank you)
Shield of faith: 6++ on all things, which can be modded and deny the witch on a single D6. 6++ is okay, but if you're getting your sisters killed with a melta gun, you have other problems. You're usually getting killed by mass rapid fire not single use, high AP weapons. On vehicles its more useful but on vehicles it cannot be modified. Which SUCKS. Still, a 15 girl blob with a 4++ is okay. But you're still getting drowned out by autocannon and a billion bolter shots. As for deny the witch, eh as well. It's hilarious to block a smite with a 6 when they rolled a 5 but the chance is so low it's not going to happen that often. There are modifers to all of these which make them each better but on their own....
Grade: D+ (Neat and thematic army wide rules, but will never win you the game or save anyone)
SACRED RITES: Space Marines Doctrines, but worse (ladies), semi random and can go away (like my dad) depending on army composition. Which is fairly strange, considering I can't think of any other rule that does that. Even if you take separate detachments you lose it. Take that ladies, work harder and get less results.
If EVERY MODEL in your army (with the exception of an Inquisitor - presumably and thematically) you gain these abilities. You could choose one or roll 2D6 and get both. (But duplicates cannot be re-rolled and are technically lost) However, they are chosen at the start of the battle, not before. So you can choose which one you want depending on whom you're facing. (Very useful in tournaments I have to admit)
Hand of the Emperor (Slight nudge of the king): Add one to the advance and charge rolls. (Meh for your standard sisters army but rockets to the dizzying heights of slightly less meh if your entire army consists of Mortifiers and Repentia)
Grade: D+
Spirit of the Martyr (Don't die just yet): Roll a D6 per model killed. On 5+ shoot or melee one last time. (Actually pretty good. It's a slightly less good Space marine standard but army wide and cannot be lost. Did your Repentia die - of course they did, they're naked in the 40K world, they died before the battle started. Here's a 33% chance of murder blading someone's face off before you go. Seems more useful for a melee centric list which is a letdown because 8th is leafblower: the edition and most games are over by turn 2.5)
Grade: C
Aegis of the Emperor (You're simply not believing enough): Deny the witch tests at +3 this gives you a range of 4 to 9 for all units in your army. (With the few abilities to lower opponents psychic test scores that the sisters have, coupled with being able to do this army wide, even from vehicles. I definitely see a use for this but you would have to build your army around it. In a casual game this ability is much more powerful than in a tournament)
Grade: C+
Divine Guidance (Not divine enough): On a wound roll of a 6+ increase AP by 1. This is the definition of not great. It's not strong enough or anywhere near consistent enough to build an army around. It would be nice when it happens but, it's super not great. GnR's Chinese Democracy of not great.
Grade: D
The Passion (Love what you do and you'll never work a day in your life): An unmodfied hit roll of 6+ in melee scores an additional hit. (Conditionally better than Divine Guidance but worse because it relies on being in melee and with sisters that's a bad idea. Once again, more of a nice if it happens but still not that great. Sisters being weaker and squishier than the genetically enhanced, armed to the teeth, often psychotically unhinged, armored super soldiers you'll be facing)
Grade: D+
Light of the Emperor (The goggles do nothing): Re-roll morale tests. Army wide, always works, reliable. But sisters roll in MSU and in vehicles most of the time. There are other morale options and there's always miracle dice. It's nice that it's dependable (unlike my dad) but it won't do much.
Grade: D
So, overall, there's one that I would consider almost good but situational and one that's okay but even more situational. I guess they made them bad so that you wouldn't miss them when you ally in guard or a knight but that's the most backwards way of thinking outside of ignoring inflation and wages. This ENCOURAGES you to not run a pure sisters list because these rules aren't good enough to keep around. They should be much better (Because we'd be facing Marines or Eldar and die as per our fluff) so that we'd want to take a pure sisters list. Not the other way around.
Overall grade: D+
On to units: An awkwardly balanced and strangely composed group but with some real gems.
HQ: Canoness (Not up to caliber): A decent statline hampered by an awkward array of wargear options and upgrades.
If you take a boltgun (GUN, not pistol) and a power sword you can increase your SM Captain ability by 3". This is odd, as this load out would encourage you to stay back in a gunline or near a tank, not take sweet redemption to the enemy. But then you also have to take a power sword. So it's confused, but not too bad.
You can take any pistol instead (hello plasma) or a condemder (HARD PASS) or you can take a blessed blade (Like a Relic blade, it's not too expensive and it's actually pretty great)
Or you can forgo all sword upgrades and take the Brazier of holy fire. -1 LD to Deamons only. (Not Psykers for some reason) and can do D3 mortal wounds when it shoots once per game. Deamons take D6 - which could be very funny but not game winning. This is okay. Season 13 of the Simpsons okay.
I have no idea why the wargear upgrades were done this way, it's awkward and limited and in some places counter-intuitive. (Like me at a secondary school dance) I don't think any other basic HQ choice is so hamstrung this way. It would be like saying a SM captain can only take a jump pack if he's equipped with three chainswords and a relic bolt pistol. NO JUMP PACK. It's been 26 YEARS. Don't tell me nuns wouldn't take a jump pack. I went to Catholic school for 10 years. If Sister Margaret could've flown across the playground to shame me, she would've.
Overall: C+ (Some utility and some support, but not that hard hitting or great at any one thing. Which is a problem as she's our main generic HQ choice and compares poorly to both a guard commander and a SM captain.)
Missionary (Bringing small pox would be more useful): A mini, less good Chaplain. Re-roll hits on the charge. Not great for a S:3 chainsword model. Has a save against friendly models fleeing, which I can see a use for but most sisters squads are going to get skin blasted off like in Terminator 2 during a single phase so not that useful. It's main ability is to give friendly church units +1 attack during combat. Pretty great with the right set up. Still, they lack melee options to add to the fight. But they are cheap and the only option for running an all church detachment if you wanted to do that.
Overall: C (Don't take more than one, can't take more than one. Also both Murder hobos are gone, which is a real bummer.)
Saint (Not a Demon Prince) Celestine: Remember when she was the best thing in the entire word because GW wanted to sell that new box? When she could cleave everyone in twain in a single go? Well stop remembering that.
Can regrow bodyguards and has a great sword. A GREAT sword that also shoots holy fire. Although I like to think she shoots it out of her eyes, early Piccolo style. Or Supergirl style. Whichever, you pick. She can die and come back once, so save a CP die. She also increases the shield save for friendly sisters INFANTRY (Not tanks, suck it everyone whom has multiple immolators) However this means she has to stay back to really, really help. Although ranging out with some Sera or Zyrhaphim is an option, kinda. She's still pretty good, but worse than last time around and not the 'Bring Robute back to life' good she used to be. Also more expensive....
Grade: C+
Triumph of Saint (I have the potential to be the craziest thing ever released) Katherine: Rules wise it could be amazing or the worst thing you've ever purchased outside of three whirlwinds. A T3 character with 18 wounds, 14 attacks (four with a super neat sword and 10 with a neat sword) and a -1 to hit (presumably its glory shames enemies into not hitting it as well) and a degrading statline. Friendly sisters auto pass morale and it cannot ride in a vehicle of any kind. You can split abby in half like Sasha Grey with this unit but it probably won't make it. It becomes a magnate for all bullets on the entire table and gets roasted by two chain gun Leman Russ. It's also dumb expensive but very, very funny.
It has 5 relics which degrade as it loses wounds. More Miracle die. Modify Miracle die by 1. Do D3 mortal wounds to Chaos and Psykers with the power of shame. +1 in melee (including this model, presumably) Do an additional act of faith. Gaining a miracle die and modifying them for nearby units is pretty good. The rest are pretty okay but doing mortal wounds is always nice.
Grade: C- (I could be wrong here, it could be the best unit in the game but I really doubt it.)
Junith (Forced Diversity) Erutia: Two heavy flamers despite being modeled with four on a floating pulpit, yelling down pure, undiluted shame at everyone on every side. Has the Captain and LT rules rolled into one. She increases the invuln of friendly Sisters infantry, but not vehicles (which is a shame because she could actually keep up.) She's pretty tough and hitty. Held back by being of the martyred lady (more on that later)
Grade: B- (Sky based shame)
Troops: Sisters of battle (The one and only): Less good space marines but much cheaper and a bit more flexable with two weapons regardless of size. May take a flying baby that allows them to generate more miracle die that must be used that turn on that unit. The Sister superior may be equipped with two melee weapons and no ranged weapons other than a bolt pistol (I assume this a type but it does mean she can take two chain swords and no guns.) She cannot take a storm bolter, which bothers me as all of mine are equipped with them. Not too much to say, a solid unit that suffers greatly in the current meta and is our only choice. Not cheap enough to be a true hoard, not tough enough to stand under the fire.
Grade: C+
Elites: (Buckle up sunshine, we're gonna be here a while) Preacher: A mini missonary that gives up run away protection to make Chaos a bit more afraid. No upgrade options and only metal models. Semi useful depending on your build and cheap)
Grade: C+
Geminae (We are the joke) Superia: Canoness bodyguards with jump packs.... sigh.... They can catch incoming wounds for Saint Celestine and can be grown back. But I feel like they are a trap option. They're not that expensive but they don't move with the Saint. Which means they can fail a charge that she success or vice versa, leaving one of them out in the cold. Two wounds each, they don't seem worth the time. They're nice figures though.
Grade: D (There's worse things, but not many)
Repentia Superior and Repentia: (Rihanna based pun) They go together, don't pretend they don't. The Dominatrix and her unwilling gimps ride into battle. Re-roll charge and advance and re-roll ones to wound. S:6, AP:-3, D:2 chain sabers. 5+++ and gain a MD when they die, which they will. Overall lacking. 7+ Armour and a 6 inch move. They have to be in a vehicle or you need a LOT of them plus other distraction units. They will kill whatever they get to (Especially if they have a Missionary and shield buffs around them but that's a large point investment) and better with bloody rose but they won't get to it. 8th is a shooting edition and they're naked but not afraid. Taking 50 of them and running them up the center has the potential to do some real damage to opponents and friendship but otherwise...
Grade: C-
Celestian (We've never been useful): A battle sisters squad with extra attack and leadership. The same weapon upgrades despite hitting better in melee so this gives them no good way of taking advantage of that. They can catch wounds and re-roll all attacks while near their Mistress but lack any real defining roll. Basic sisters do about 90% of the job for cheaper and are objective secured.
Grade: D
Zephyrim (Riot girls): Melee seraphim with no wargear options. S:3 power swords with re-roll to wounds and a 5++ on their own. Deep striking and assault (More possible with MD but still not amazing) If you take ten and charge (No orders or anything else) you're looking at about 7 dead marines or 4 dead Primaris. Is that worth less than 2 Benjamins of won't get their without getting a bit killed? You decide. Better with Bloody Rose. They have an ability to re-roll charges for themselves and others within 6 which could lead to some interesting synergies if nothing else. But still harder to pull off than you'd like.
Grade: C
Dialogus (My model is now way less scary): Has protection against mortal wounds in the psychic phase, but just for her. Increases leadership and can modify MD by one in either direction for nearby sisters units. Better in close combat than a sister but shouldn't be there. A nice model but outside of the most intensive MD based lists in the world, not worth taking.
Grade: D
Hospitaller (Helllllllo Nurse): Heals D3 wounds on a friendly unit or brings a model back to life with 3". Not on a roll. Just does it. This makes her flat better than any other imperial medic in the game. What say you to that, Apothecary? Cheaper too. It must be some sort of error that will be corrected later. Still, march her behind the Triumph and giggle a little bit. Could get an extra turn out of them this way.
Grade: B-
Imagifer (Sings the hymns of the Ecclesiarchy): Choose one ability during deployment (useful) Re-roll deny the witch tests. No. Ignore -1AP for friendly units. YES. +1 S. The +1 strength can be used to great effect for Repentia or Zyphs and could be interesting with the right deployment. But with the amount of Primaris running around with stupid sexy bolters and combat doctrines the ignore the -1AP of weapons is where it's at. A few units in cover with this ability makes sisters surprisingly tanky and she's got good utility as well.
Grade: B+
Crusaders: (Lost their way on the pilgrimage) At one point the greatest tarpit unit in the entire game, now, nothing amazing. Despite having a power sword and a stormshield for a stupid low price. They don't seem to have a reliable place to play. Especially since they can't actually tie up units in melee anymore since people can just choose to not engage you rather than stay in for a danger hug.
Grade: D-
Death cult Assassins: (The not as good assassins) S4 power swords with 4 attacks re-rolling hits. +1 attack with a Preacher or Missionary nearby. Only a 5++ save and die to dedicated bolter shooting. Still, if you can manage to get them into position they can kill. Same cost as a repentia but slower and tougher overall and has a harder time killing bigger things but more attacks to swamp a marine squad in a way they can't. Choose one or the other depending on the situation.
Grade: C-
Arco-flagellants: (Extra kinky killing machines) A 5+++ and 4 attacks on average. Up to 6 maximum. More with a preacher, re-rolling hits. They're S:5 and put out a lot of attacks but die almost as much as the other options. Whereas Repentia go after tough units, Death Cult go after Marines, these dudes go after hoards. Choose one depending on the situation.
Grade: C-
FAST ATTACK:
Dominions: (No jokes now, only questions) So, my review of this is going to vary depending on rules interpretation. If they can scout in a vehicle they're pretty great. If they can't, they're useless. (Unless you love four storm bolters - which, who doesn't?) They're good platform for melta guns (one of only two ways to kill a vehicle) and one for storm bolters (but this depends on spending a CP to get 2 damage and -2AP) Other than that, they are sisters that go before the starter pistol shot. Which is rude. Also the Repressor seem to be gone now, ironic, since we needed it to repress people. This realllllly cuts down on their ability to kill things safely. They're now exposed to return fire and reprisal killings.
Grade: D+ (With no vehicle) B- (With vehicle)
Seraphim squad (Stupid, sexy Seraphim): Jump pack sisters with a face so beautiful it makes them slightly harder to kill. Dual wielding pistols with the ability to take 4 melta or 4 hand flamers. Both have their uses, especially with the CP ability to shoot both at 12 when you deep strike, then shoot again normally. Hand flamers just above free. But, unless you're fighting a weird throwback hoard army, I'd go with the melta. Running with Saint Celestine (a 4++) or decent cover, they have a good chance to get to a unit you want to melt. Or deep strike in and melt something with sky based fusion. Still squishy and very killable but cheap enough to be a unique to sisters non-sexual harassment unit. The skystrike strat allows you to kill 4 marines with just bolt pistols when you come in. This can be a surprise and force you enemy to turn around and distract from an encroaching melee unit. These sisters are supposed to die.
Grade: B-
Exorcist: (This sounds like Rock and/or Roll): The big disappointment of last edition becomes much less disappointing. Still random shots but at 3D3 and a strat to re-roll it's more reliable. However it's about 2 Tubman's more expensive than last time too and inexplicably has a leman russ frame. Lost a point of AP for some reason but now has the ability to drop 9 S:8 AP-3 D6 shots per turn. This is good. Is it that many more points good? I'm not entirely sure. I also don't like being forced to pay for the heavy bolter that I won't use. Conflagration rockets are an Akbar level trap so do not take.
Grade: B-/C+
Mortifiers: There's you've failed, and there's we strapped your still living corpse to an open facing chainsaw machine gun demon failed. The new unit, so it'll be at least pretty good. 2 heavy bolters on a 3+ platform. Does D3 mortal wounds when it explodes. Can change weapon profiles on the fly and can make 15 S:6 AP:-1 attacks in melee. Just over 3 dead marines each in the first round (not including the 6 heavy bolter shots). And you can take 5 of them. It's very gross, fast and not too expensive (points wise. Money wise they'll let your blood) It can also take chainsaws for hands. Turning it into a Terminator, Primais, light vehicle killer. Depends on the enemy. But I'd say probably take 2 of 1 and 1 of the other. Plus, they might actually live to get to the enemy. Still melee but has other options.
Grade: B-
Retributor squads: (Heavy metal queen) Heavy weapon sisters. With heavy weapon options instead of regular options. Sister Devastators but better, surprisingly. They can move and fire heavy weapons. Take that, most space marines. Still limited to the holy trinity. Lacking Las cannons is a bummer but being able to jump out of a transport and murder melt someone on 3's is nice. And they add 4" inches (When not in a pool) to their heavy flamers. Which makes them the longest range, human portable flamers in the game. They burn so much, they augmented their flamers with the heat of their sheer contempt for you and everything you stand for. Good utility unit that doesn't put out an obscene amount of fire power but packs a punch for its cost.
Grade: B
Penitent engines: Worse mortifers, but a little cheaper
Grade: C+
Transport:
Rhino: A rhino with a 6++. Not much to say. Worse now that it can't get a 4++. I suppose only one Imperial vehicle can get that and it goes to the poster boys. Still, they get you where you need to be, from Chimpan-a to Chimpanzee
Grade: C
Immolator: New model, more expensive than before. Lost access to a 4++. A more expensive Razor back with long range double heavy flamers. Perfect with a burning squad of Retributors. Dual heavy bolters are cheaper but you lose the auto hit and only hit on a 4+ if you move. Has its uses. Much more useful if Dominions get to scout while inside her. Still a bit too pricey though. I'd like the option to drop the H. Bolter for a storm bolter and save points.
Grade: C+
Battle sanctum (An underground bunker of the faithful, I assume. Not weird connotations there.) So, much of this is going to depend on how the model looks and its size. Fortifications can be surprisingly hard to place on a map in a tournament setting. Even a friendly game, come to think of it. IT seems to have multiple floors as well. So how will I transport it? Answer me!? Grants cover and cannot be targeted. Gain +1 LD and subtract LD from Chaos units. Chaos (so not JUST Deamons? See what I mean about the Canoness now?) Gain 2 MD per turn. 1 for yours and 1 for your opponents. This varies depending on how much you put stock into this system. Which remains to be seen. For half a C-note it's up in the air.
Grade: Unknown, depends on size, shape and price and how much you like MD.
Overall, a mixed bag. Still, some under powered units may become exceptional with the right chapter tactic, warlord trait, relic or strat. Tune in tomorrow for the follow up. Adepta Sororitas PT.2 (The search for more money)
First of all, sorry for the delay, secondly, I want to say thank you, sincerely for all the feedback I've been given for this review. I still stand by my initial assessment as for the units in a standalone sense, except for the heavy bolter on the exorcist (I'd like to have the option of not taking it though.) But many of you made good points that I tried to weave back into my initial review. However, we will be moving into the rest of the special rules and I will attempt to show how some of the strats and tactics mesh with the basic units. I've gotten a few games in so far and I used MD wrong the first one but I think I got it right the second and third times. It's still an okay feature, but I did use it to promise a six on the damage roll to destroy a Land Raider filled with Bezerkers and that was, admittedly, a very nice feeling.
In this part I will be breaking down the sub-faction of the codex. Conviction, Relics, Strat and Warlord traits.
Order convictions (Like chapter tactics, but you're sure about it.)
Here I will list their conviction, special relic, strat and, when applicable, character to give a better picture of the whole sub-faction.
OUR MARTYRED LADY: (We're better when we die)
So, first you gain a miracle die whenever one of your units die. (Once per phase) In addition to if your character gets killed. So you may have lost your Cannoness, but you gained two dice, please include that in your letter back to her family. (Not that she had any) Plus +1 to hit for a unit if they lost a model earlier in the battle.
This is very much going to depend on how much use you get out of miracle die. I'm still not sold on the entire enterprise so the first part feels very meh and not something you should build an army around. If you love it, then I'm happy for you. However, this would force you to take large, maybe very large squads of slogging foot sisters in order to really make it work. I'm still convinced that sisters work best with 5 girls in a burn wagon, shooting 70mm automatic shame before getting their every atom shattered to the seven hells in a single round of return fire.
Grade: D+
Warlord trait:
+1 wounds, +1 save. (So the order that most wants to die, has a leader that's harder to kill) Would be useful on a SM Chapter Master or super duper on an Ork Warboss but on a squishy sister with no real murder machines, it's wasted)
Grade: D
Relic:
Martyrs' vengeance (Punctuated properly, which I appreciate.)
Replaces and inferno pistol with a S:9 always in the spot light 2d6 inferno pistol. While this relic does cost more than others, wounding a Land Raider on a 3 is nice. Not that bad, despite the short range. I could see her with a blessed blade being surprisingly killy.
Grade: C+
Strat:
Honour the Martyrs (We get it, you like dying)
If an enemy kills a unit of yours, re-roll 1s to hit until the end of the game. A funny, always stays on strat that is fluffy and sort of useful. However, since we'd probably be running 3 cannoness' for their cost and our general lack of options we should have good coverage. Might be nice for a roaming, melta dom squadette to take vengeance with. But, then, whom did their unit kill?
Grade: C
FINAL GRADE: D+ (The sister's pin up girls come in lacking. I could never imagine Ultramarines getting it this bad. And at least Ultras have a much sharper, eye catching paint scheme that looks good on the table.)
VALOROUS HEART: (Say you'll love me again)
6+++ and ignore AP-1 against all attacks. This bumps to ignoring AP-2 with the most improved unit in the game Imagnifier. This is huge, played against Khorne flakes, ignored their chain axes saved a vehicle. Played against Primaris and parked in a tree line with thirty lady nuns and ignored almost all of their shooting. Ended up being very hard to shift. Hands down, amazing but not killy. But with sisters just making it to the end of the game is an accomplishment. Once again however, this forces you towards larger, foot based infantry blobs to get the most out of it. Opening the army up to leadership issues and blitzing chaingun fire. Which plays against how I've always considered sisters to run.
Grade: A
Warlord trait:
5+++ If your game comes down to making this roll, you've failed. As a person.
Grade: D+
Relic:
Casket of penance: (Momma O'Sullivan's gonna put you in the scary timeout box)
-1 Toughness to enemy units if they have a model within 1" of you. Your warlord is in melee with something. You've done goofed. At best you have a blessed blade which means you'll still be wounding on 3's against marines. (Killing guard though, that's funny and pointless, this won't help you against the mighty treads of sky daddy's battle tanks) at worst you have a ruler used to discipline unruly children. And you'll be wounding on 4s with no other options. This is another example of something that would be amazing in another army but wasted here. Maybe we get it so that Kharn doesn't. There's only one and we're not gonna share.
Grade: D
Strat:
Blind faith: (360 no scope of pure belief)
One unit may ignore hit roll modifiers when shooting Soooooooo.... advance and shoot meltas with no penalties. Someone pop smoke but your piano fingers are itchy? Ignore it. Someone pop smoke AND you advanced with meltaguns? Absolutely. Someone happen to be a Raven guard? (They have other problems because they're not Iron hands) It's funny and strong, I've been telling people I have it before the game starts so I don't feel bad when I blast something on the first turn.
Grade: A
FINAL GRADE: B+ (What's bad is really, really bad. What's good is amazing and more than makes up for it. With the Conviction and the strat being so good you almost overlook how terrible the Relic is. A hairs berth away from perfection, still the best overall sub-faction in the book. Even with the weaknesses, play this or play wrong.)
BLOODY ROSE (Take me home...)
-1 AP to pistols and melee weapons. +1 attack during the first round of combat. (Simple, direct, subtle like a smoke beltching chainsaw sword to your smug, heretic face. This has uses, seraphim with AP-5 infero pistols. Hand flamers with - still skip these. Repentia getting their -4AP chain claymores back. If sisters had the staying power, this would be a viable secondary to the Toni Braxton brigade above. It could still work but you'd have to plan an army around it. Multiple Cannon's, Saint Celestine. Missionary and preachers. A hoard of Rhinos with Repentia and Seraphim running interference. Even then, I doubt it's repeated success. But it's nice to know they've weaponized their pure distain for you and everything you stand for.)
Grade: B-
Warlord Trait:
+1 attack, advance and charge. (This review will be lumped in with the Relic)
Grade: D+
Relic:
Beneficence (We named a sword after the word for mercy and kindness, aren't we clever?)
Free for a chainsword. +1 S, AP:-2 (So -3 with Conviction) D:2
So, lest we forget. A cannoness with this trait, conviction and this weapon is making.... 9! NINE attacks at S:4, AP:-3, D:2 hitting on 2's re-rolling 1s and can advance and charge. Almost 4 dead marines on the charge. 4 Primaris as well, so its better against tougher opponents. There's worse things. Unfortunately, you're still stuck on a Cannoness with no jump pack. It's a surprising punch, not game breaking but it will help you with one on one fights against someone with a low invulnerable save (Which I can't think of many. But there's not many lady's out there who can reliably solo a squad of super marines.)
Grade: B (When combined with Trait and Conviction, which you should do)
Strat:
+1 to wound in melee. (Murder! Murder! Murder! Kill! Kill! Kill! Could be clutch in isolation. Won't be momentum shifting because it'll be on repentia or Zyraphim. Would be useful for our most respected lady of unbelievable murder though - ¥olandi for short)
Grade: C
FINAL GRADE: B- (A one trick pony, but an impressive tricks that gets polite claps from the crowd. On a Marine frame this becomes hilariously amazing but this is not an all comers army build. This is built from the ground up to slice and tear. Probably in a vanguard detachment as an ally rather than a fully army. However, you're still running face first into bolt rifles and Primaris marines. But 8+ squads of repentia is something I've definately wanted to try. An overall more cohesive and useful set of abilities than Valorous heart but less useful as well. Which is sad because a bunch of power armored nuns ripping someone limb from limb like an angry wookie is one of the reasons I started this game.)
EBON CHALICE: (We are the black cups! Look upon us and tremble.)
5+++ against mortal wounds only. Plus, burn an MD to make another MD a 6+ (Smite spam is a real problem, please talk to your doctor about it. However, if you end up facing a psyker light list this becomes almost useless with other strats and abilities and wargear. A psyker heavy list will still murder the face off you. Could be the difference between a dead Rhino and a live one but I wouldn't write home about it. (Please talk to me, dad) The second part of always getting a 6 does have its uses but I'm not sold on the whole MD system as it is. Finding a way to burn off a bad roll into a good roll is better than nothing and might have a use if you build your army around it but I still remain stubbornly unconvinced)
Grade: D+ (But I may be convinced otherwise)
Warlord trait: (I've got something in my pocket for you)
The first miracle die you gain at the start of your round is a 6. Gain D3 command points at the start of the game. (This is actually fairly good, built around the MD system - which again, I get it - and the D3 command points is welcome but I can't help but feel they didn't really know what to do with this warlord trait.)
Grade: C+ (This should probably be switched in some way with our order of the dead ladies for theme)
Relic:
Replaces a Condemnor bolter. Which means you have to admit that you bought a rifle with a crossbow on top and didn't have the common decency to make it an underslung weapon. Can snipe character with D3 damage. Can snipe psykers with 3 damage. S:5 with rapid fire. Not too terrible. Two shots could do 6 damage and actually kill something. Not reliable but could be a fun surprise. These are the relics that never get taken in a book though.
Grade: D-
Strat:
We are the gods of hellfire. Pick a unit. Pay 2 CP. Make every flamer in that unit fire at sixes. Funny on a Dominon squad for 4 dead marines. Really funny on a Retributor squad for 8 dead marines. Season 3 of the venture brothers funny on overwatch for when someone is coming to give you danger hugs. Can be sprung from an immolator as well for 12 shots of outside of a hotpocket burning.
Grade: B-
FINAL GRADE: C- (A really underwhelming mixed bag. Like trail mix with no M&M's. An okay warlord trait and a funny strat does not a sub-faction make. A conviction that will win you the game about 20% of the time and be a weight around your neck the other 80.)
ARGENT SHROUD: (The Silvered hoods)
Shoot as if you haven't advanced. NOT as if you haven't moved. (This one is so short I feel like there was a copy/paste error in printing and there's a whole second part we're missing. Running to get in melta range is useful, with MD dice to promise the distance. Still, they're only melta guns. If you have to advance and fire your Heavy bolters, you're still hitting on 4's and made a Will Arnett level error.
Grade: D-
Warlord Trait:
6" Heroic intervention and always fight first. (Still a cannoness, probably won't turn the tide and there's better warlord traits out there.)
Grade: D+
Relic:
-1 to hit against her at all times. (This brings up an interesting idea. She could be bait, making marines hit on a 4. But, if you do that, she will still die. If she ends up in close combat with someone this will make her survive longer but ultimately won't save her against something she already would die against. Interesting for wrapping up a gunline unit and could, in theory, completely avoid overwatch with the -1 to hit. Has a use I could see, but not amazing.)
Grade: C-
Strat:
1 units gains a 5+++ against mortal wounds. (Pay a CP to gain an ability another sub-faction has on all the time. However, since this is situational you have more options with your army. I feel this should've either been a normal Strat or one for black cups to up their existing ability. This could save an exposed unit, or allow you to put a Rhino in the way to harrass a smite farm and still keep it alive. But it's your only exclusive strat and it's a big disappointment to its mom and its whole family. Weirdly, it's not just in the psychic phase, so you could may save someone from an exploding vehicle. But that feels like a reach.
Grade: D+
FINAL GRADE: D (Poor Conviction, Poor Warlord trait, okay relic, poor strat. Needs much improvement. If there's a loser in this codex. It's these girls right here. Wear the dunce hat and write lines on the board)
SACRED ROSE: (Has its thorns. There's a lot of music based puns today)
No more than 1 model can flee due to moral. When you perform an act of faith, gain a die back on a 5+. ALSO. Overwatch on a 5+. (There's a lot to unpack here. I feel like at least one of these abilities should've been shoved over to the hoods. Morale won't be much of an issue unless you're doing huge squadettes, so eh. The ability to regain MD on a roll is like the relic to regain CP but worse, because I don't like MD as much as I like neat CP tricks. But, built in rather than a relic and so more useful. Finally, overwatching on a 5+ is better than nothing. It's the most packed one so it's way more versatile but none of them on their own are that impressive.)
Grade: C+
Warlord trait:
Gain a MD when your warlord uses an MD. Self explanatory but relies on your belief in the MD system. Works very well with it but I'm not sure how often your warlord will be using MD for herself. Once a phase in theory but I'd be baffled if you did that and weren't intentionally trying to lose more than you already are by playing Sisters of battle
Grade: D+
Relic:
A super-de-dooper version of the Brazier of holy fire. -1 LD to deamons. D3 mortal wounds as a flamer. D6 if you're shooting a Demon. Can burn an MD to make it more than 1 use only. This is strange, because it's in some ways worse than the generic relic of this and it doesn't work on Chaos or Psykers. Which you'd expect it to considering whom the sisters are keen to fight. Ordos Hereticus in general usually. It comes down to how often you have to face Demons. If you face them a bunch, then happy times, this is the book for you.
Grade: C-
Strat:
Bolter shots of a 6+ scores an additional hit. Counterpoint to the passion. Judgment and passion. The cosmic ballet, goes on. Explosions of bolters are always nice. But you can't rely on it and can't build a list around it. Still, better than nothing. Like my stepdad.
Grade: C-
FINAL GRADE: C- (Probably the most schizo of all the Convents. Bit of more bolters, bit of deamon killing. Bit of MD regrowth. Bit of overwatch. Bit of LD modification. It spreads out in a confusing but broad way. Lots of options but no focus. It's the anti Bloody Rose. If for some reason you don't take Toni Braxton or the Kiss from a Rose, take these. Gives you the biggest spread for your buck.
Class grades: MARTYRED LADY: D+
VALOROUS HEART: B+
BLOODY ROSE: B-
EBON CHALICE: C-
ARGENT SHROUD: D
SACRED ROSE: C-
Thank you for reading, I encourage your feed back and thank you for your time. In our final part, we will be discussing generic strats and Relics and giving a final run down.
Have you actually played a game with them yet? Because I feel like the codex is more than the sum of its parts and people are judging it very harshly without playing a game or two with them.
I had a long post picking out details etc. I decided to delete it. This review is massively negative, and comes across as "My units aren't OP enough."
I have also played sisters since they first arrived. I will wait and see before I decide anything.
I think you missed the mark on basically everything ; and it is way to much to individually comment on everything. I think it is both an unproductive review that lacks any sort of competitive inspiration and frankly also just lacks innovation tbh.
To just touch the surface you obviously don't understand the buff synergies with charactors and stratagems at play. E.g. celestians d rank? valorous celestians are goib to be 3+/4++ ignore -1 and -2 ap(being way more durable then a plaguebearer vs almost everything), 3 attacks strength 4 rerolls all hits. That means they hit as hard as an interceasor in melee and are more then twice the durabilty vs things such as avenger gattlers. Other stratagems etc can come in and make these girls way more a steal . D is honestly a laughable joke of a rating. You also didn't take the time to math out some of the mechanics(which where easy too as well) to understand how good/not good they where; instead choosing to just dismiss things that are powerful force multipliers. There are definitely comboes in the book that outcompete current used choices in the game.
This feels like a review from a salty noob no offense
Also what are you comparing things to to be able to rate them? What's would be an example of an "A" unit? Presumably with no buffs, traits etc because that seems to be how you're rating things which for an army like Sisters seems like a flawed premise given that nearly a third of the units have an aura of some description.
I agree that this seems overly negative, but maybe a grading scale would help. What's an A+/A/A- unit, since there's seemingly none in this book? Obviously you aren't grading the book against itself, or there'd be the whole range of grades. But, you're also not grading the book against other books, since you can't possibly have matched up point-for-point against a bunch of other unit types and factions. Are Battle Sisters Troops a C+ against other units in this Codex, or against other Troops units from other factions? I suspect the answer is neither. Go ahead and grade the Troops category down for having only one unit, but rate that unit up for having a good variety of loadouts and aura/order/stratagem supports to render them (at least potentially) useful for their cost.
Fun writing style, though-- I like the snark and humor, just not at the cost of useful, meaningful ratings.
MacPhail wrote: I agree that this seems overly negative, but maybe a grading scale would help. What's an A+/A/A- unit, since there's seemingly none in this book? Obviously you aren't grading the book against itself, or there'd be the whole range of grades. But, you're also not grading the book against other books, since you can't possibly have matched up point-for-point against a bunch of other unit types and factions. Are Battle Sisters Troops a C+ against other units in this Codex, or against other Troops units from other factions? I suspect the answer is neither. Go ahead and grade the Troops category down for having only one unit, but rate that unit up for having a good variety of loadouts and aura/order/stratagem supports to render them (at least potentially) useful for their cost.
Fun writing style, though-- I like the snark and humor, just not at the cost of useful, meaningful ratings.
I appreciate this. I should've been more clear. I'm comparing this book to the new marine book. Which I have more experience with. (Although I haven't played every unit multiple times either) So yeah, this book review so far is compared to the 8.5 Marine codex plus the Guard Dex. As in, not a strict one to one comparison, just how I feel they compare to other Imperial units in a similar role. Battle sister squads vs Tactical marines/Primaris/A guard squad as troop choices.
How call people this review massively negative, he gave a C+ to a Codex that's at best mid-tier without someone surprisingly finding the secret sauce?
Is there some weird magic somewhere that makes SoB much stronger than they look like, cause if i look at the power creep apparently happening in CA 2019 to bring many other armies closer to Space Marines and then at the objectively much weaker than meta-relevant Space Marines SoB Codex than i highly doubt that they will end up very strong.
I play Sisters quite a long time by now(and read since an eternity on Dakka without signing up) and was really excited for a new full Codex, but the more i look at what currently surrounds that Codex release(some broken Space Marines chapters, release problems of the first new Sisters, CA 2019, etc..) and the very restrained written Codex(which is kinda a bit baffling after an actual feedback phase for the beta Codex, to just use two especially obvious examples how the hell is there still no jump pack for the Canoness and what's up with this silly wargear nerf for the Sister leaders) and then how people seemingly try to sugarcoat that(at least in my opinion) the angrier i get at GW. But maybe i'm just missing something?
gunchar wrote: ... but the more i look at what currently surrounds that Codex release(some broken Space Marines chapters, release problems of the first new Sisters, CA 2019, etc..) and the very restrained written Codex(which is kinda a bit baffling after an actual feedback phase for the beta Codex, to just use two especially obvious examples how the hell is there still no jump pack for the Canoness and what's up with this silly wargear nerf for the Sister leaders) and then how people seemingly try to sugarcoat that(at least in my opinion) the angrier i get at GW. But maybe i'm just missing something?
Their opinions are their own and I cannot fault them for having it. But I honestly thought I was being VERY generous with my review and gave a few units a bit higher grade than my initial gut reaction because I worried I was being too cynical. But based on units and some special rules (I'm still working on part 2) this is a pretty mediocre codex that can in no way hope to stand against the top books.
Well... in a vacuum and compared to current SM, it's going to fall far short. But I don't think it's fair to measure the entire book that way. There's a few Unique ideas in this Codex
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BrianDavion wrote: I mean TBH I'm not sure how anyone can rate the cannoness as a C+.
if you're willing to take a relic you can get her aura out to 12 inches. a 12 inch captain Aura can be VERY nice.
Given it's our only non unique HQ option apart from a Missionary, it's really just a waste of Relic/CPs...
Lammia wrote: Well... in a vacuum and compared to current SM, it's going to fall far short. But I don't think it's fair to measure the entire book that way. There's a few Unique ideas in this Codex
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BrianDavion wrote: I mean TBH I'm not sure how anyone can rate the cannoness as a C+.
if you're willing to take a relic you can get her aura out to 12 inches. a 12 inch captain Aura can be VERY nice.
Given it's our only non unique HQ option apart from a Missionary, it's really just a waste of Relic/CPs...
yeah sisters definatly need another HQ option.
IMHO they should get something like the space marine chaplain
I don't get why people have to give the review such a poo poo response. He did say this was a first thoughts review. I get people want to be all hype, I do too, however you do yourself no favors in trying to avoid reason.
This does in any objective measure feel like a very solid middle road book. That isn't bad at all, just good solid and middle tier. That isn't negative.
Marines in power are an outlier that may never get fixed at least not for awhile as they had so many hard baked bonuses to make them better now they are overly good.
The sisters look to be quite good, just high middle good, which would make them pretty balanced, which is a good thing. We will see how it shakes out but I doubt they are going to give marines a run for their money.
SaltyNoob wrote: E.g. celestians d rank? valorous celestians are goib to be 3+/4++ ignore -1 and -2 ap(being way more durable then a plaguebearer vs almost everything), 3 attacks strength 4 rerolls all hits. That means they hit as hard as an interceasor in melee and are more then twice the durabilty vs things such as avenger gattlers.
While true, this particular celestian unit is being buffed by 280 points of characters including the warlord, a specific order, and a stratagem (or another 45pts)
Collectively you are looking at a 400+ point group of units to... hit as hard an an intercessor squad. With no means of moving quickly around the table.
IMO the celestians are still functional enough meatshields to warrant a slightly better score, though it's a pity that they have the 'one shock blocked, six models die' form of bodyguard with no mitigation.
Lammia wrote: We have a lot of Chaplain like stuff. Idk that it'd fit...
keep in mind chaplains these days have various prayers etc that they can use to buff self or units. which is more what I'm thinking of.
So an Imagifier?
Dude said we ALREADY HAVE a bunch of chaplain type units. What would another one add but more of the same?
mechanicly they are VERY VERY differant.
I don't go near marines unless its to stab them so I dunno what chaplains do but I can't imagine its very different from confering a specific buff to a unit based on whatever its opposing.
vipoid wrote: Just a point but I think you could make an argument that HQs should be judged without Relics, Warlord Traits etc.
Especially in armies with few HQ options.
Okay then - I think she's great.
A cheap buffing character that you can slot in without feeling like you are paying a tax with a wide range of options to play with. Basically everything I'd like an Archon to be.
Want one with a boltgun and nothing else to camp some Exorcists? Great.
If you want you can run into combat you can take a blessed blade (or bloody rose+relics etc) - which is better than a huskblade because screw you thats why.
She doesn't have your favourite shadow field (sorry) - but I think she should do more damage for two thirds the cost. (For now just take a blaster, but that option will go sooner or later.)
Is she a daemon prince or smash captain? No, but she's a fraction of their point cost.
The missionary is in the same boat. He's an incredibly cheap HQ slot filler - and +1 attack is a very powerful buff. A 4++++ on morale failure also arguably isn't bad, but I think you are going to MSU everything so its a bit "eh". But again, 38 points. You wouldn't need to save many models to pay for itself even if it did nothing else.
still cold on the Canoness a bit. she's great as a buff HQ or a melee build, but she use to actually use more variants on range, and im gonna be annoyed they removed them and added precious little. her rank affords much more than they gave her to potentially use.
Blessed Blade is not shabby at all though, that much is true. i may not be happy for no evicerator or power axe options, buuuut this thing makes up for it a good bit.
Missionary could do work if you get the aura's in place, but they did remove a different named HQ and vaguely hand his gear as an option to this one. luckily if you use em right he'll likely do good work. also being the one most cheap, you'll probably bring one if your whole focus is reduced cost.
Bdrone wrote: still cold on the Canoness a bit. she's great as a buff HQ or a melee build, but she use to actually use more variants on range, and im gonna be annoyed they removed them and added precious little. her rank affords much more than they gave her to potentially use.
Blessed Blade is not shabby at all though, that much is true. i may not be happy for no evicerator or power axe options, buuuut this thing makes up for it a good bit.
Missionary could do work if you get the aura's in place, but they did remove a different named HQ and vaguely hand his gear as an option to this one. luckily if you use em right he'll likely do good work. also being the one most cheap, you'll probably bring one if your whole focus is reduced cost.
They're only 7 points cheaper base, so idk that it's worth it without a plan to use them somewhere. On the flip side Preachers went up 5 points and now have a -1Ld vs Chaos aura...
...
...So are now an *over priced* waste of an Elite slot...
vipoid wrote: Just a point but I think you could make an argument that HQs should be judged without Relics, Warlord Traits etc.
Especially in armies with few HQ options.
Okay then - I think she's great.
A cheap buffing character that you can slot in without feeling like you are paying a tax with a wide range of options to play with. Basically everything I'd like an Archon to be.
Want one with a boltgun and nothing else to camp some Exorcists? Great.
If you want you can run into combat you can take a blessed blade (or bloody rose+relics etc) - which is better than a huskblade because screw you thats why.
She doesn't have your favourite shadow field (sorry) - but I think she should do more damage for two thirds the cost. (For now just take a blaster, but that option will go sooner or later.)
Is she a daemon prince or smash captain? No, but she's a fraction of their point cost.
I actually agree. Indeed, I was very much thinking of the Archon when I said HQs should be judged without Warlord Traits, Relics etc.
I do think it's a real shame that she has no option for a Jump Pack but other than that I really don't see a lot to complain about. Especially given her cost she seems pretty damn good, to be honest.
I also disagree on the review of the sacred rites. These are mostly solid buffs.
Hand of the Emperor: +1 advance and charge is good for any assault focused army. Failing charges loses games. You have a couple of ways to advance and charge in the codex. You also through miracle dice have a way to guarantee charges - which is a huge boost.
Spirit of the Martyr - 5+ to shoot a weapon or swing. Its typically going to be worse for an assault army, because you only get one attack. As opposed to another volley with a stormbolter, or a blast from a multi-melta etc. I mean it applies to Exorcists. Okay still a 5+ - but with a CP reroll that's odds on to happen. Then you get to shoot 3D3 S8 AP-3 shots at something. As with the SM banner - sometimes it will do nothing, others it will appear to win games on its own.
Aegis. Agree its obviously skewed depending on whether your opponent has psychic or not - but a 4-9 dispel on most units is reasonably solid. I can certainly think of Chaos armies with all the psykers (hi Ahriman) that have the potential to be shutdown quite hard here, if they are getting mediocre rolls on those smites. I'd say its one of the weaker abilities unless you are list tailoring (with say a nullrod canoness etc thrown in there etc) though.
Divine Guidance - people may say "what difference does 1 AP make" - but as Marines are showing, a reasonable amount. With say basic sisters - bolters/stormbolters, shooting MEQ, that -1 on 6s is a 16% damage buff (33% if they have cover). Less valuable when shooting say Ork Boys (6% buff) - but it will add up in a shooty list.
The Passion - exploding hits is always great, and so it is here. On say repenta - or even basic sisters -, this translates into 33% more expected hits. That's a huge buff.
When fully synergised your basic nine point sister can make 3 S4 AP-1 attacks, rerolling 1s to hit and 6s=2 hits. WS4+ is the only sad fact - but unlike say Ork Boys or GSC Acolytes you keep a reasonable shooting threat (with stormbolters etc) and a 3+ save with a potentially further buffable invul. (Obviously how practical putting this combination together while say eliminators etc proliferate is debatable - but still.)
Light of the Emperor is the only out and out miss. Getting some extra miracle dice a game may be nice, but build MSU and morale isn't going to be an issue. As SM and Word Bearers show - its not as if this ability will help much if your 15 strong sister squad has got mangled anyway. As I see it, if you get this, use the CP to reroll to get something better.
With say Bloody Rose I think you have 4 good buffs, 1 situation one in the Aegis, and 1 bad one. Which is quite good odds for getting a good combination.
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Edit for the above.
I agree a jump pack would be nice on a canoness. Unfortunately no model=no rules prevails, and doesn't seem to be stopping any time soon.
Roll on DE codex 2.0 and Archons are going to have splinter pistols and husk blades and that's it.
given the demand for the sisters box I think it's safe to say sisters are a sucess. so with any luck past the codex release GW'll continue to put out models for them periodicly. a level of support akin to what admech is getting would be perfect (admech seems to be averaging a new kit a year)
I'll do one more swing at the lack of a jump pack canoness with the mention not only did they redo the canoness kit, but they also made Junith eruita when that could have pulled a Necron-esc catacomb command barge and been a generic HQ choice as well, to give the canoness a flying pulpit ride. shame that was a missed opportunity for a model they called "center-piece".
She'll likely chop down her points worth even if it's in counter charge though. this lack of mobility while reducing her range options and more or less keeping the melee bugs me. even if she's always been better at melee, i use to have the option to put other stuff there. i'll miss combi- plas and stormbolter.
on the missionaries, yeah, without a plan of action you'll want to use someone else... except if your trying to stay cheap you can only pull out 3 canoness's if you obey that rule. if that rule is the case, and you can't use/ don't want to use junith , and don't want to use celestine or the triumph for whatever reason, your taking a missionary if you still need to fill out something like missing HQ slots. we'll see how that shakes out in time, im sure. since a number of models in the army benefit from missionaries being there based on your list and especially if bloody rose, the missionary's points start being more useful.
as to the Rites, Aegis is great but situational, The Passion is awesome if your building for it. im iffy with divine guidance, but you nailed the point Tyel, it can add up depending on matchup. i wasn't eyeing spirits synergy with the exorcist, but if your correct, point made loud and clear.
that said, hand of the emperor... my problem with this is that if sacred rites worked with generic ministorum as well, id be more inclined to agree it was as good. id play argent shroud so it's not like i would never ever get the bonus, but the extra charge is.. possibly the least useful here than in any other army.
we can deepstrike charge rerollers for the Order models with Zephyrim, and use miracle dice to help ensure charges or fix at least one of the dice in our favor. in the same vein we can fix advances for key moments potentially as well. I hope im not underselling it, but i don't know if it's really all that with such capabilities available to the faction, especially compared to the other options. if your list is melee, its an even harder choice to take with The Passion, Spirit, and especially Aegis floating around, though of course that ones more matchup dependent.
Sim-Life wrote: I don't go near marines unless its to stab them so I dunno what chaplains do but I can't imagine its very different from confering a specific buff to a unit based on whatever its opposing.
Even being vaguely famliar, I don't see a massive difference. I think Chaps get to change each turn, and have different bonuses they grant.
That said, I'm lost as to how miracle dice aren't rated high. It's consistency on demand from a pile you have on hand. Maybe it won't work out as well I hope, but as long as I know what's in the pile I can make sure I roll exactly what I need to in order to kill that character. I've rolled many, many 1s on 2 or 3 wound remaining characters hitting them with d3 and d6 damage, let me just pick that 2 or 3 from the pile and bowl him over, may as well just make my day for me even if it Is below average.
The Canoness doesn't have lots of options. She has fewer options than a Sister Superior.
There are 2 builds: one with a rod of office (that can't otherwise be changed) and one with a blessed blade (at which she gets a whopping amount of choice between.... 3 pistols). Oh and a condemnor boltgun
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't get why people have to give the review such a poo poo response. He did say this was a first thoughts review. I get people want to be all hype, I do too, however you do yourself no favors in trying to avoid reason.
I never intended to bash the OP-- I get that it's an initial reaction, and maybe I should have better acknowledged the hard work that went into the review. I just didn't understand the metric that resulted in nothing higher than a low B grade in the entire book, where at least some things... utility of the BSS, efficiency of the Canoness, BR Seraphim, AS Retributers, etc... are at least situationally useful for their point cost. Now that the OP has clarified that the comparison is against the potency of the new Marine 'dex, it makes a lot more sense. That's a powerful book and there aren't many that would measure up, especially with certain Chapter Tactics in place. Far from ignoring reason, I was trying to understand the context of the ratings. I may still find them a bit pessimistic, but now I know why.
MacPhail wrote: Now that the OP has clarified that the comparison is against the potency of the new Marine 'dex, it makes a lot more sense.
In terms of comparing the sisters against the competition, I think the leaks from chapter approved would suggest holding off for a bit. There seem to be wide sweeping price cuts to other factions, and psychic awaking will be bringing further buffs.
Sim-Life wrote: I don't go near marines unless its to stab them so I dunno what chaplains do but I can't imagine its very different from confering a specific buff to a unit based on whatever its opposing.
Even being vaguely famliar, I don't see a massive difference. I think Chaps get to change each turn, and have different bonuses they grant.
That said, I'm lost as to how miracle dice aren't rated high. It's consistency on demand from a pile you have on hand. Maybe it won't work out as well I hope, but as long as I know what's in the pile I can make sure I roll exactly what I need to in order to kill that character. I've rolled many, many 1s on 2 or 3 wound remaining characters hitting them with d3 and d6 damage, let me just pick that 2 or 3 from the pile and bowl him over, may as well just make my day for me even if it Is below average.
I think its people thinking "well what difference can one die make" without thinking back on how often a single die roll can impact a game. When I think back to the amount of times I or my opponents have used my reroll strat and then later in the phase wished I still had it really puts what miracle dice can do into perspective.
i think the reason not so many folks rate Miracle dice highly is because of it's own random nature. i think GW did a fair job in making the low rolls useful, but with questions about how the dice can be employed to the fullest extent, it makes the whole thing more difficult to put an easy number on.
the days when you roll out of the box you can pop them in crazy well and make command rerolls look like nothing, other days you might be begging for a decent one. but then there's also the timing of their use. clinching wounds and charges when key can definitely work out, but other times the good use won't be so obvious.
My hope is the average game has these dice covering the moments you'd normally think to command reroll instead of doing just that, and saving the command points for Strategems instead. once the full extent is shown, i think the rule may be better than at least i expect.
that said, judging the sisters book vs others is a tricky prospect right now. not just marine silliness is afoot, with Psychic awakening still ongoing, never mind what else is down the pipe. CA has me watching Custodes and Tau with interest in particular along with mechanicus on the side, and Saga of the Beast could be a BIG thing for SW and orks, which for a friend im keeping my eyes open for.
But not every dice HAS to be a six to be useful. Just KNOWING you can make that melta hit even on a 3+ is a big deal. I've had a whole unit of dominions pop out an immolator and miss every shot. I'm sure they were wishing for miracle dice when being ground up by that rockgrinder.
I didn't say they had to be sixes to be useful, just that the fact they cannot be inherently counted on to be consistent may be why people are shying away from it. thankfully we have means to use even the low dice on something, and mid dice will work for hits and in some cases wounds, as well as confirming some charges and other things besides.
as good as it is, it's as good as how well your rolling that day. hopefully it's enough to turn a tide, but it's just not something to easy to quanitfy compared to a flat bonus army rule.
Good review. I mostly concur with your assessment.
Sorry you are getting so much flak for it. I really don’t understand why people get upset over a critical review. That is what a review is: a critical appraisal.
If you just want to be hyped, then you can just read the marketing fluff on the GW Homepage.
Pro_b0 wrote: Good review. I mostly concur with your assessment.
Sorry you are getting so much flak for it. I really don’t understand why people get upset over a critical review. That is what a review is: a critical appraisal.
If you just want to be hyped, then you can just read the marketing fluff on the GW Homepage.
Bdrone wrote: I didn't say they had to be sixes to be useful, just that the fact they cannot be inherently counted on to be consistent may be why people are shying away from it. thankfully we have means to use even the low dice on something, and mid dice will work for hits and in some cases wounds, as well as confirming some charges and other things besides.
as good as it is, it's as good as how well your rolling that day. hopefully it's enough to turn a tide, but it's just not something to easy to quanitfy compared to a flat bonus army rule.
I think the issue is that outside of damage and charges the benefit is mathematically quite weak. As you are making something certain when it had a high chance to happen anyway.
Say you can fire 3 melta guns in a turn at BS 3+ - and you turn one such 3+ roll into a guaranteed success.
On average you number of hits is only going up from 2 to 2.333. Which isn't a huge buff in terms of the army as a whole. Mathematically its comparable of having reroll 1s to hit...just for those specific 3 meltas.
(If you were rerolling 1s anyway, its 2.33->2.555. An even smaller increase.)
Okay you are definitely getting at least one hit - but then the odds of getting 3 misses was 1 in 27. So not that high. I should probably crunch some numbers to calculate how this skews the odds of definitely getting 2 hits - but intuitively I don't think its that much.
Anyway - the relevant point is that if you have say 24 melta shots over the turn (or whatever, consider all shooting etc its going to be a high number), you can see how the impact of that one guaranteed hit is diluted to almost nothing.
The counter argument will be ensuring one hit on one specific unit - rather than having say all the luck on one target, and none on another. But its still going to be quite minor.
Or at least it will be early on. The counter-counter argument would be that miracle dice regenerate while CP don't (well, they can for other factions, but still tend to run out over time). So later on, say in turn 4 when both sides are badly wounded, and you've both spent all your CP, arguably having some guaranteed hits may become very valuable. But its then a question of how often you are going to get these knife edge games rather than blowouts one way or the other.
in other words, because of the games volatile and lethal nature, combined with sisters being an army where a LOT of dice are being rolled, the ability loses ground in most applications.
...which to then try to optimize, may create of situation of putting good resources (points, command and normal, relics, WTs) after bad in the event it's REALLY not enough.
Yeah, i get what your saying about it. this kind of effect makes close games into potential wins, but blowouts it will do less with. like a passive army rule thats inherently defensive. if the situation doesn't benefit it, it'll do far less, except you can employ it in multiple ways, provided you have the resources, offensively and defensively.
im just thinking of those times in a more cutthroat game when several units get dusted and your handed a miracle die... that rolls low on top of it as i mull over those thoughts.
BrianDavion wrote: given the demand for the sisters box I think it's safe to say sisters are a sucess. so with any luck past the codex release GW'll continue to put out models for them periodicly. a level of support akin to what admech is getting would be perfect (admech seems to be averaging a new kit a year)
Well lets hope its not Guard level of support, or Dark Eldar level of support. 1 kit a year, I could only imagine if certain factions only got that love a year, there would be blood in the streets. ( not literal ) I doubt we'll see much sustained stuff for Sisters for awhile after the kits that get released we know of at this point. Though maybe in a years time they may see some new stuff, like a faith flyer or some such.
To be frank, I only really "felt" the impact of like 3 miracle dice in 3 games so far:
- Overwatch 6 to-hit with a multi-melta that slew a charging Librarian.
- Automatic save vs lascannon hit to the Canoness (50/50 otherwise)
- 7 damage with a Storm of Retribution Multi-Melta to wipe out a tank from over half it's hit points.
That said, the Divine Intervention and Moment of Grace stratagems both require Miracle Dice and have both been super handy, and I had one instance where a foe refused to charge because I had a 6 in my Miracle Dice pool and the Canoness had an inferno pistol.
I look at he codex's individual parts and frown, nothing seems to stand out. A very "C"-rating. I think it is also doing a disservice to look at it as such. An Imagifier sitting in a Valorous Heart castle passing out ignoring -2 AP to a bunch of gals sitting in cover is probably not a C-rated experience.
Argent Shroud Repressors are probably not a C-rated experience either.
But really, I think the Codex as a whole should probably receive a bit of a higher grade, and you're probably receiving a bit of flak because of the very compartmentalized approach you're taking. The units are very pedestrian, there's nothing obviously OP, everyone gets it. But is the codex middling around with no way to bring itself up a bit? Stuck forever in mundanity? I think that may be selling the entire product short.
Also, MD is just a bully tactic. As Unit1126 pointed out, people will play differently knowing that certain rolls CAN be foregone conclusions. And that can lead to play errors...
BrianDavion wrote: I mean TBH I'm not sure how anyone can rate the cannoness as a C+.
if you're willing to take a relic you can get her aura out to 12 inches. a 12 inch captain Aura can be VERY nice.
Just a point but I think you could make an argument that HQs should be judged without Relics, Warlord Traits etc.
Especially in armies with few HQ options.
Except you can buy both of those. And if you start to rate without stuff they can get you need to rate marines without doctrines and super doctrines as well
Sim-Life wrote: I don't go near marines unless its to stab them so I dunno what chaplains do but I can't imagine its very different from confering a specific buff to a unit based on whatever its opposing.
Even being vaguely famliar, I don't see a massive difference. I think Chaps get to change each turn, and have different bonuses they grant.
That said, I'm lost as to how miracle dice aren't rated high. It's consistency on demand from a pile you have on hand. Maybe it won't work out as well I hope, but as long as I know what's in the pile I can make sure I roll exactly what I need to in order to kill that character. I've rolled many, many 1s on 2 or 3 wound remaining characters hitting them with d3 and d6 damage, let me just pick that 2 or 3 from the pile and bowl him over, may as well just make my day for me even if it Is below average.
Yep. Imagine exorcist getting 3 shots past saves. First dice for damage 4, then 2. You can trigger act of faith for 3rd for 6 for auto kill that vehicle. Pretty handy. Or you really need something with 2 wounds left dead for sure? Have spare plasma pistol nearby? You can do if need be automatic hit AND wound(albeit costs miracle dice(3 or 4 required depending on T) and 2 CP but sometimes that's worth it and better than trust rolling two 3+ on one dice even with CP reroll.
Bringing characters back alive? Oh yeah. Opponent kills your blender cannoness with 2+/4++/can't be wounded better than 4+ and then it comes back alive. Fun.
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Sim-Life wrote: But not every dice HAS to be a six to be useful. Just KNOWING you can make that melta hit even on a 3+ is a big deal. I've had a whole unit of dominions pop out an immolator and miss every shot. I'm sure they were wishing for miracle dice when being ground up by that rockgrinder.
And you have ability to use same miracle dice for hit AND wound. Expensive but at times there are times when certainty is needed. And say you need 3+ to hit and 4+ to wound? 33% chance of making. Vs 2 CP, 1 miracle dice of 4+ and it's 100% quarantee.
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Pro_b0 wrote: Good review. I mostly concur with your assessment.
Sorry you are getting so much flak for it. I really don’t understand why people get upset over a critical review. That is what a review is: a critical appraisal.
If you just want to be hyped, then you can just read the marketing fluff on the GW Homepage.
Then again guy has plenty of odd claims. Useless heavy bolter on exorcist? Ummm...Since when it's so quaranteed you have ONLY LOS to vehicle but NOT to some infantry within 36"? We aren't playing older editions anymore where you have to shoot at same target.
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Altima wrote: Personally I'm wondering if MD are a pilot for some new rules in 9th or an upcoming release.
That would be cruel taking sisters own thing and give it to others freely. That's like giving IG orders for everybody, bolter drill for everybody, synapse for everybody...
First of all, sorry for the delay, secondly, I want to say thank you, sincerely for all the feedback I've been given for this review. I still stand by my initial assessment as for the units in a standalone sense, except for the heavy bolter on the exorcist (I'd like to have the option of not taking it though.) But many of you made good points that I tried to weave back into my initial review. However, we will be moving into the rest of the special rules and I will attempt to show how some of the strats and tactics mesh with the basic units. I've gotten a few games in so far and I used MD wrong the first one but I think I got it right the second and third times. It's still an okay feature, but I did use it to promise a six on the damage roll to destroy a Land Raider filled with Bezerkers and that was, admittedly, a very nice feeling.
In this part I will be breaking down the sub-faction of the codex. Conviction, Relics, Strat and Warlord traits.
Order convictions (Like chapter tactics, but you're sure about it.)
Here I will list their conviction, special relic, strat and, when applicable, character to give a better picture of the whole sub-faction.
OUR MARTYRED LADY: (We're better when we die)
So, first you gain a miracle die whenever one of your units die. (Once per phase) In addition to if your character gets killed. So you may have lost your Cannoness, but you gained two dice, please include that in your letter back to her family. (Not that she had any) Plus +1 to hit for a unit if they lost a model earlier in the battle.
This is very much going to depend on how much use you get out of miracle die. I'm still not sold on the entire enterprise so the first part feels very meh and not something you should build an army around. If you love it, then I'm happy for you. However, this would force you to take large, maybe very large squads of slogging foot sisters in order to really make it work. I'm still convinced that sisters work best with 5 girls in a burn wagon, shooting 70mm automatic shame before getting their every atom shattered to the seven hells in a single round of return fire.
Grade: D+
Warlord trait:
+1 wounds, +1 save. (So the order that most wants to die, has a leader that's harder to kill) Would be useful on a SM Chapter Master or super duper on an Ork Warboss but on a squishy sister with no real murder machines, it's wasted)
Grade: D
Relic:
Martyrs' vengeance (Punctuated properly, which I appreciate.)
Replaces and inferno pistol with a S:9 always in the spot light 2d6 inferno pistol. While this relic does cost more than others, wounding a Land Raider on a 3 is nice. Not that bad, despite the short range. I could see her with a blessed blade being surprisingly killy.
Grade: C+
Strat:
Honour the Martyrs (We get it, you like dying)
If an enemy kills a unit of yours, re-roll 1s to hit until the end of the game. A funny, always stays on strat that is fluffy and sort of useful. However, since we'd probably be running 3 cannoness' for their cost and our general lack of options we should have good coverage. Might be nice for a roaming, melta dom squadette to take vengeance with. But, then, whom did their unit kill?
Grade: C
FINAL GRADE: D+ (The sister's pin up girls come in lacking. I could never imagine Ultramarines getting it this bad. And at least Ultras have a much sharper, eye catching paint scheme that looks good on the table.)
VALOROUS HEART: (Say you'll love me again)
6+++ and ignore AP-1 against all attacks. This bumps to ignoring AP-2 with the most improved unit in the game Imagnifier. This is huge, played against Khorne flakes, ignored their chain axes saved a vehicle. Played against Primaris and parked in a tree line with thirty lady nuns and ignored almost all of their shooting. Ended up being very hard to shift. Hands down, amazing but not killy. But with sisters just making it to the end of the game is an accomplishment. Once again however, this forces you towards larger, foot based infantry blobs to get the most out of it. Opening the army up to leadership issues and blitzing chaingun fire. Which plays against how I've always considered sisters to run.
Grade: A
Warlord trait:
5+++ If your game comes down to making this roll, you've failed. As a person.
Grade: D+
Relic:
Casket of penance: (Momma O'Sullivan's gonna put you in the scary timeout box)
-1 Toughness to enemy units if they have a model within 1" of you. Your warlord is in melee with something. You've done goofed. At best you have a blessed blade which means you'll still be wounding on 3's against marines. (Killing guard though, that's funny and pointless, this won't help you against the mighty treads of sky daddy's battle tanks) at worst you have a ruler used to discipline unruly children. And you'll be wounding on 4s with no other options. This is another example of something that would be amazing in another army but wasted here. Maybe we get it so that Kharn doesn't. There's only one and we're not gonna share.
Grade: D
Strat:
Blind faith: (360 no scope of pure belief)
One unit may ignore hit roll modifiers when shooting Soooooooo.... advance and shoot meltas with no penalties. Someone pop smoke but your piano fingers are itchy? Ignore it. Someone pop smoke AND you advanced with meltaguns? Absolutely. Someone happen to be a Raven guard? (They have other problems because they're not Iron hands) It's funny and strong, I've been telling people I have it before the game starts so I don't feel bad when I blast something on the first turn.
Grade: A
FINAL GRADE: B+ (What's bad is really, really bad. What's good is amazing and more than makes up for it. With the Conviction and the strat being so good you almost overlook how terrible the Relic is. A hairs berth away from perfection, still the best overall sub-faction in the book. Even with the weaknesses, play this or play wrong.)
BLOODY ROSE (Take me home...)
-1 AP to pistols and melee weapons. +1 attack during the first round of combat. (Simple, direct, subtle like a smoke beltching chainsaw sword to your smug, heretic face. This has uses, seraphim with AP-5 infero pistols. Hand flamers with - still skip these. Repentia getting their -4AP chain claymores back. If sisters had the staying power, this would be a viable secondary to the Toni Braxton brigade above. It could still work but you'd have to plan an army around it. Multiple Cannon's, Saint Celestine. Missionary and preachers. A hoard of Rhinos with Repentia and Seraphim running interference. Even then, I doubt it's repeated success. But it's nice to know they've weaponized their pure distain for you and everything you stand for.)
Grade: B-
Warlord Trait:
+1 attack, advance and charge. (This review will be lumped in with the Relic)
Grade: D+
Relic:
Beneficence (We named a sword after the word for mercy and kindness, aren't we clever?)
Free for a chainsword. +1 S, AP:-2 (So -3 with Conviction) D:2
So, lest we forget. A cannoness with this trait, conviction and this weapon is making.... 9! NINE attacks at S:4, AP:-3, D:2 hitting on 2's re-rolling 1s and can advance and charge. Almost 4 dead marines on the charge. 4 Primaris as well, so its better against tougher opponents. There's worse things. Unfortunately, you're still stuck on a Cannoness with no jump pack. It's a surprising punch, not game breaking but it will help you with one on one fights against someone with a low invulnerable save (Which I can't think of many. But there's not many lady's out there who can reliably solo a squad of super marines.)
Grade: B (When combined with Trait and Conviction, which you should do)
Strat:
+1 to wound in melee. (Murder! Murder! Murder! Kill! Kill! Kill! Could be clutch in isolation. Won't be momentum shifting because it'll be on repentia or Zyraphim. Would be useful for our most respected lady of unbelievable murder though - ¥olandi for short)
Grade: C
FINAL GRADE: B- (A one trick pony, but an impressive tricks that gets polite claps from the crowd. On a Marine frame this becomes hilariously amazing but this is not an all comers army build. This is built from the ground up to slice and tear. Probably in a vanguard detachment as an ally rather than a fully army. However, you're still running face first into bolt rifles and Primaris marines. But 8+ squads of repentia is something I've definately wanted to try. An overall more cohesive and useful set of abilities than Valorous heart but less useful as well. Which is sad because a bunch of power armored nuns ripping someone limb from limb like an angry wookie is one of the reasons I started this game.)
EBON CHALICE: (We are the black cups! Look upon us and tremble.)
5+++ against mortal wounds only. Plus, burn an MD to make another MD a 6+ (Smite spam is a real problem, please talk to your doctor about it. However, if you end up facing a psyker light list this becomes almost useless with other strats and abilities and wargear. A psyker heavy list will still murder the face off you. Could be the difference between a dead Rhino and a live one but I wouldn't write home about it. (Please talk to me, dad) The second part of always getting a 6 does have its uses but I'm not sold on the whole MD system as it is. Finding a way to burn off a bad roll into a good roll is better than nothing and might have a use if you build your army around it but I still remain stubbornly unconvinced)
Grade: D+ (But I may be convinced otherwise)
Warlord trait: (I've got something in my pocket for you)
The first miracle die you gain at the start of your round is a 6. Gain D3 command points at the start of the game. (This is actually fairly good, built around the MD system - which again, I get it - and the D3 command points is welcome but I can't help but feel they didn't really know what to do with this warlord trait.)
Grade: C+ (This should probably be switched in some way with our order of the dead ladies for theme)
Relic:
Replaces a Condemnor bolter. Which means you have to admit that you bought a rifle with a crossbow on top and didn't have the common decency to make it an underslung weapon. Can snipe character with D3 damage. Can snipe psykers with 3 damage. S:5 with rapid fire. Not too terrible. Two shots could do 6 damage and actually kill something. Not reliable but could be a fun surprise. These are the relics that never get taken in a book though.
Grade: D-
Strat:
We are the gods of hellfire. Pick a unit. Pay 2 CP. Make every flamer in that unit fire at sixes. Funny on a Dominon squad for 4 dead marines. Really funny on a Retributor squad for 8 dead marines. Season 3 of the venture brothers funny on overwatch for when someone is coming to give you danger hugs. Can be sprung from an immolator as well for 12 shots of outside of a hotpocket burning.
Grade: B-
FINAL GRADE: C- (A really underwhelming mixed bag. Like trail mix with no M&M's. An okay warlord trait and a funny strat does not a sub-faction make. A conviction that will win you the game about 20% of the time and be a weight around your neck the other 80.)
ARGENT SHROUD: (The Silvered hoods)
Shoot as if you haven't advanced. NOT as if you haven't moved. (This one is so short I feel like there was a copy/paste error in printing and there's a whole second part we're missing. Running to get in melta range is useful, with MD dice to promise the distance. Still, they're only melta guns. If you have to advance and fire your Heavy bolters, you're still hitting on 4's and made a Will Arnett level error.
Grade: D-
Warlord Trait:
6" Heroic intervention and always fight first. (Still a cannoness, probably won't turn the tide and there's better warlord traits out there.)
Grade: D+
Relic:
-1 to hit against her at all times. (This brings up an interesting idea. She could be bait, making marines hit on a 4. But, if you do that, she will still die. If she ends up in close combat with someone this will make her survive longer but ultimately won't save her against something she already would die against. Interesting for wrapping up a gunline unit and could, in theory, completely avoid overwatch with the -1 to hit. Has a use I could see, but not amazing.)
Grade: C-
Strat:
1 units gains a 5+++ against mortal wounds. (Pay a CP to gain an ability another sub-faction has on all the time. However, since this is situational you have more options with your army. I feel this should've either been a normal Strat or one for black cups to up their existing ability. This could save an exposed unit, or allow you to put a Rhino in the way to harrass a smite farm and still keep it alive. But it's your only exclusive strat and it's a big disappointment to its mom and its whole family. Weirdly, it's not just in the psychic phase, so you could may save someone from an exploding vehicle. But that feels like a reach.
Grade: D+
FINAL GRADE: D (Poor Conviction, Poor Warlord trait, okay relic, poor strat. Needs much improvement. If there's a loser in this codex. It's these girls right here. Wear the dunce hat and write lines on the board)
SACRED ROSE: (Has its thorns. There's a lot of music based puns today)
No more than 1 model can flee due to moral. When you perform an act of faith, gain a die back on a 5+. ALSO. Overwatch on a 5+. (There's a lot to unpack here. I feel like at least one of these abilities should've been shoved over to the hoods. Morale won't be much of an issue unless you're doing huge squadettes, so eh. The ability to regain MD on a roll is like the relic to regain CP but worse, because I don't like MD as much as I like neat CP tricks. But, built in rather than a relic and so more useful. Finally, overwatching on a 5+ is better than nothing. It's the most packed one so it's way more versatile but none of them on their own are that impressive.)
Grade: C+
Warlord trait:
Gain a MD when your warlord uses an MD. Self explanatory but relies on your belief in the MD system. Works very well with it but I'm not sure how often your warlord will be using MD for herself. Once a phase in theory but I'd be baffled if you did that and weren't intentionally trying to lose more than you already are by playing Sisters of battle
Grade: D+
Relic:
A super-de-dooper version of the Brazier of holy fire. -1 LD to deamons. D3 mortal wounds as a flamer. D6 if you're shooting a Demon. Can burn an MD to make it more than 1 use only. This is strange, because it's in some ways worse than the generic relic of this and it doesn't work on Chaos or Psykers. Which you'd expect it to considering whom the sisters are keen to fight. Ordos Hereticus in general usually. It comes down to how often you have to face Demons. If you face them a bunch, then happy times, this is the book for you.
Grade: C-
Strat:
Bolter shots of a 6+ scores an additional hit. Counterpoint to the passion. Judgment and passion. The cosmic ballet, goes on. Explosions of bolters are always nice. But you can't rely on it and can't build a list around it. Still, better than nothing. Like my stepdad.
Grade: C-
FINAL GRADE: C- (Probably the most schizo of all the Convents. Bit of more bolters, bit of deamon killing. Bit of MD regrowth. Bit of overwatch. Bit of LD modification. It spreads out in a confusing but broad way. Lots of options but no focus. It's the anti Bloody Rose. If for some reason you don't take Toni Braxton or the Kiss from a Rose, take these. Gives you the biggest spread for your buck.
Class grades: MARTYRED LADY: D+
VALOROUS HEART: B+
BLOODY ROSE: B-
EBON CHALICE: C-
ARGENT SHROUD: D
SACRED ROSE: C-
Thank you for reading, I encourage your feed back and thank you for your time. In our final part, we will be discussing generic strats and Relics and giving a final run down.
SaltyNoob wrote: E.g. celestians d rank? valorous celestians are goib to be 3+/4++ ignore -1 and -2 ap(being way more durable then a plaguebearer vs almost everything), 3 attacks strength 4 rerolls all hits. That means they hit as hard as an interceasor in melee and are more then twice the durabilty vs things such as avenger gattlers.
While true, this particular celestian unit is being buffed by 280 points of characters including the warlord, a specific order, and a stratagem (or another 45pts)
Collectively you are looking at a 400+ point group of units to... hit as hard an an intercessor squad. With no means of moving quickly around the table.
IMO the celestians are still functional enough meatshields to warrant a slightly better score, though it's a pity that they have the 'one shock blocked, six models die' form of bodyguard with no mitigation.
Given that you are already slamming those characters in your list before you even decided to take Celestians its kind of a wash. You just happen to have every buff you need before you purchase the celestians so eh. They are far from dedicated to building a celestian 'deathstar'.(how are you not taking celestine, imagifiers, preacher/missionary, canoness?????), have an easy 24-25" threat range for charging(are the best unit in the codex to capitalize on the simalcrum+my 4 games with sisters have led me in a path believing that advance +charge is the absolute best use for miracles), no fail rate, so yes they actually do move around the table and for the intercessors to be comparable would need a captain upgraded to master + a lt. 10 buffed celestians+chars =400, 10 buffed intercessors+chars=400. I don't think that point holds up about the cost to create them in their prime imo. There is basically no powerful thing in 8th that doesn't hold a x+y+z formula. Prenerf ynnari spears are hot garbage without the warlocks and farseers and such to go with them.
Like those 300 point clump of characters are also buffing the dirt cheap triple battalion giving you 18 cp so its really not fair to say ya its 400 points for 1 celestian unit. Scew the body guard function its really not something to be focused on. Its nice if it comes up thats it. Your paying +1 point for battle sisters with +! ws, attack, reroll all hits with additional utility stratagem after you have taken the troop slots needed for cp. Sisters have always had a horde archetype and these fill a roll nicely as back up battle sisters once the cp farm has reached its cap.
I am very happy with the humble battle sister at 9 considering its force multipliers, and gear options. 1 point for ws, A, reroll hits, LD and body guard rule (these buffs also make you feel better using simulacrums and cherubs on them) on any solid unit in the game is exceptionally nutty. CP is the only reason these girls don't deserve an A.
ARGENT SHROUD: (The Silvered hoods)
Shoot as if you haven't advanced. NOT as if you haven't moved. (This one is so short I feel like there was a copy/paste error in printing and there's a whole second part we're missing. Running to get in melta range is useful, with MD dice to promise the distance. Still, they're only melta guns. If you have to advance and fire your Heavy bolters, you're still hitting on 4's and made a Will Arnett level error.
Grade: D-
Way too low IMO. Speed is good. Speed gives you objectives. Ability to advance and still shoot all those bolters etc is good. You arent' cutting up all of your firepower with advance and can literally just swamp into enemy DZ double fast boxing them in. Being nephrek player for necrons I keep getting benefit from THEIR speedy rule. While this isn't as speedy(no automatic 6 alas) the weapons benefit more as sisters are rocking more rapid fire and heavy weapons.
If you only look at melta's for this you are looking at the conviction from wrong angle.
There may be some mileage to be had from 36 heavy flamer hits (strat and cherubs), 5+++ bodyguards, and the complimentary command points and dice of 6.
I don't see them as the main order in a list, but as an order on the side they can absorb low dice and convert them into high dice, as a warlord they have a little more protection against getting assassinated than others, and a single point is a low investment to have their relic 'unlocked' in the event you face psykers (weird HQ equipment restrictions not withstanding).
SaltyNoob wrote: Like those 300 point clump of characters are also buffing the dirt cheap triple battalion giving you 18 cp so its really not fair to say ya its 400 points for 1 celestian unit.
They had to be called out as you were comparing celestians with every buff under the sun to a non-buffed, non-close combat unit.
ARGENT SHROUD: (The Silvered hoods)
Shoot as if you haven't advanced. NOT as if you haven't moved. (This one is so short I feel like there was a copy/paste error in printing and there's a whole second part we're missing. Running to get in melta range is useful, with MD dice to promise the distance. Still, they're only melta guns. If you have to advance and fire your Heavy bolters, you're still hitting on 4's and made a Will Arnett level error.
Grade: D-
Way too low IMO. Speed is good. Speed gives you objectives. Ability to advance and still shoot all those bolters etc is good. You arent' cutting up all of your firepower with advance and can literally just swamp into enemy DZ double fast boxing them in. Being nephrek player for necrons I keep getting benefit from THEIR speedy rule. While this isn't as speedy(no automatic 6 alas) the weapons benefit more as sisters are rocking more rapid fire and heavy weapons.
If you only look at melta's for this you are looking at the conviction from wrong angle.
yeah a lot of the early reports are suggesting the argent shroud are damn good. I mean it's basicly a straight up improvement of the black legion trait (to the point where if black legion had their trait changed to this I'd be VERY VERY happy) although he's right that it feels..... incomplete.
The arbitrary grading system doesn't completely detract from some of your insight, but it absolutely doesn't help.
I suggest making your grading system clearer so that readers can better understand the basis of your assessment. What you've defined here is a set of rules seemingly assessed in a vacuum with no indication that you thought of or considered the sum of their parts.
I'd love to see what you have to say after getting in a dozen or so games.
I think the grades being where they are if you consider the SM codex + supplement to be a bar probably makes sense, although I agree you seriously undervalue the ability to advance without penalty with all your shooty units.
I also think you are too hard on MD, but I think that whether you're right or not will become clear over time. I just think the number of times I've had a close game come down to a couple of clutch moments means when they matter they'll be great.
Passing a morale or save to keep an objective, or stop a character being opened up to be shot at, or kill the last model in a unit for the opposite etc etc...
Removing chance from those situation is potentially incredible but very difficult to put a value on.
Celtic Strike wrote: Honour the Martyrs (We get it, you like dying)
If an enemy kills a unit of yours, re-roll 1s to hit until the end of the game. A funny, always stays on strat that is fluffy and sort of useful. However, since we'd probably be running 3 cannoness' for their cost and our general lack of options we should have good coverage. Might be nice for a roaming, melta dom squadette to take vengeance with. But, then, whom did their unit kill?
Consider the units the canoness cannot reach - seraphim and zepharim. Since they aren't coming down until turn 2 and nothing is deepstriking with them this could be useful, though I expect Bloody Rose to be the preferred seraphim order and this use is invalidated the moment GW get a jump canoness out.
Celtic Strike wrote: Shoot as if you haven't advanced. NOT as if you haven't moved...
If you have to advance and fire your Heavy bolters, you're still hitting on 4's and made a Will Arnett level error.
Grade: D-
Remember the faithful advance rule. Retributors can move, advance, and then fire their heavy weapons with no penalty.
Celtic Strike wrote: Warlord trait:
Gain a MD when your warlord uses an MD. Self explanatory but relies on your belief in the MD system. Works very well with it but I'm not sure how often your warlord will be using MD for herself.
Potentially a trap...
As characters, vehicles, seraphim, etc all share the same single use of faith each phase the only time you'd likely want to get something out of this would be deny the witch - sacking a good dice and then hoping for another back. In other phases there are almost always going to be better units to use it on unless you are down to fumes and hoping to chuck a 1 or 2 on a random bolt pistol shot and recycle it for something better.
As characters, vehicles, seraphim, etc all share the same single use of faith each phase the only time you'd likely want to get something out of this would be deny the witch - sacking a good dice and then hoping for another back. In other phases there are almost always going to be better units to use it on unless you are down to fumes and hoping to chuck a 1 or 2 on a random bolt pistol shot and recycle it for something better.
Nothing I've seen says the act of faith has to be successful, unless I've overlooked something?
This gives you a way of recycling 1s and 2s in phases that you'd not have used a dive. Attempt to deny a power on a d6 doesn't mean you have to be able to, so use a 1 and hope for a better roll. Or advance your cannoness for 1 if you have nothing to shoot and don't need the dice. I'm sure there are other times too.
ARGENT SHROUD: (The Silvered hoods)
Shoot as if you haven't advanced. NOT as if you haven't moved. (This one is so short I feel like there was a copy/paste error in printing and there's a whole second part we're missing. Running to get in melta range is useful, with MD dice to promise the distance. Still, they're only melta guns. If you have to advance and fire your Heavy bolters, you're still hitting on 4's and made a Will Arnett level error.
Grade: D-
not that i don't generally agree with some of your other commentary, but i want to talk about this one a bit.
yes, i agree that the bloody rose and valourous heart will likely be the most played because of how direct their benefits are and the internal synergies they get out of the book, Argent Shrouds conviction is not that bad... but definitely FEELS lacking when you read how many other things the others get, and their respective synergies. I do indeed would have liked more.
I'm REALLY not looking forward to valourous heart reports on the tables, incidentally. but back to the Shroud. if your building more along a shooting design and focusing on objectives over kills, Argent Shroud has a bit of an interesting niche, in that all your infantry including retributors due to their rules, can fully shoot and run at no penalties. the vehicles can't, and this is not so much an issue of the conviction as them putting emperor danged heavy bolters on all the immolators and exorcists. i don't know if id recommend the hand of the emperor sacred rite with this, though it would allow uninhibited d6+1 advances all day, and you can chuck miracle dice into key advances on top of that.
Funny thing about that though. the Repressor still got it's points, which based on what did and didn't in CA 2019, means it's more likely it's still around to be used. and last i checked, it has no heavy bolter, and it's flamers are heavy instead of the immolators assault flamer. now, i don't know the point cost of a going immolator right now, but I think the Repressor has access to order convictions, but doesn't have access to Act of faith nor sacred rites unless an errata has come through very recently. still though, it may be an alternative if your going for a mech style, because it still lets you fire out of it. while we don't have vanguard vehicle dominions anymore (and that's very sad) the repressor could still be a useful firebase potentially. no idea how miracle dice would interact with shooting from the sisters inside it, though. even if your bringing the other vehicles, firing the now mandatory heavy bolters on advance may well be better than advancing and not getting to fire them at all.
...all of that said in a vague defense of the order conviction, i more or less agree with your thoughts on the orders other unique things. as someone who very much likes the argent shroud, it was a let down.
As characters, vehicles, seraphim, etc all share the same single use of faith each phase the only time you'd likely want to get something out of this would be deny the witch - sacking a good dice and then hoping for another back. In other phases there are almost always going to be better units to use it on unless you are down to fumes and hoping to chuck a 1 or 2 on a random bolt pistol shot and recycle it for something better.
Inferno pistol. 6 for overwatch, generally high for damage. Saving your ass from death with inv save.
tneva82 wrote: Inferno pistol. 6 for overwatch, generally high for damage. Saving your ass from death with inv save.
These generally involve having your canoness out front and center to either shoot or be shot at, which is probably a better spot for a canoness of another order.
Also the benefit of this particular canoness is recycling low dice for the hopes of high dice - if you want 6s you'll want ebon chalice.
I wouldn't diss Argent Shroud so badly. My first few games have utterly stunned my opponents with the amount of firepower Sororitas have sub-12". Being able to advance and shoot makes getting into this sweet spot much easier, and keeps you from spending so much time in the awkward (for sisters) 12-24" range.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I wouldn't diss Argent Shroud so badly. My first few games have utterly stunned my opponents with the amount of firepower Sororitas have sub-12". Being able to advance and shoot makes getting into this sweet spot much easier, and keeps you from spending so much time in the awkward (for sisters) 12-24" range.
Yeah, thats the other detail. Im watching your comments in the sisters tactics thread with lots of interest. It's got me wondering how well Argent shroud may match up against Tau and Custodes in specific. id love to collect more data on how your progression goes with all this.
Unit1126PLL wrote: My first few games have utterly stunned my opponents with the amount of firepower Sororitas have sub-12".
... how?
It's bolters and meltaguns.
No special ammo, no mortal wounds, no double shooting. How is anyone stunned by this, from a sisters list of all things?
Unit1126PLL wrote: My first few games have utterly stunned my opponents with the amount of firepower Sororitas have sub-12".
... how?
It's bolters and meltaguns.
No special ammo, no mortal wounds, no double shooting. How is anyone stunned by this, from a sisters list of all things?
Quantity and endurance.
The Tau player killed something like 80 sisters over the course of our 2k game. At the end, I still had:
~20-30 bolters that were constantly in rapid fire (40-60 shots) because I could advance faster than they could withdraw.
~6 of my multimeltas that were constantly in melta range (hospitaller kept bringing them back) that could advance and shoot with no penalty faster than they could withdraw
10 Seraphim, in 2 squads of 5 (one with 4 hand flamers and one with 4 inferno pistols) that simply didn't register on my opponent's target list because they were so small.
~6-8 storm bolters constantly in rapid fire (24-32 shots) because I could advance faster than they could withdraw.
A smattering of my other special weapons - a melta BSS squad ended with 4 members, including 2 meltas and a combi-melta, and a couple of my backfield objective holder squads with heavy bolters were still kicking. I had a heavy flamer ret running around at the end as well, though not close enough to the hospitaller to return any friendos.
My characters were mostly alive (2 of my 3 canonesses died because I hurled them into melee like ballistic missiles, but the others stayed in the blob.)
The Tau were 80 sisters deep (2/3rds of my list) but because of our cheap, durable bodies, that was hardly a dent in my meaningful firepower. I also did clever tricks like hiding most of a Ret Squad out of LOS so that they'd blast them down to a couple members, and then my hospitaller could bring an MM back as they advanced again.
My list has 127 sororitas in it. Kill 80 or so and I've got nearly 50 left, and they're cheap enough that my special weapons are spread all over the place which makes targeting somewhat hard.
tneva82 wrote: Inferno pistol. 6 for overwatch, generally high for damage. Saving your ass from death with inv save.
These generally involve having your canoness out front and center to either shoot or be shot at, which is probably a better spot for a canoness of another order.
Also the benefit of this particular canoness is recycling low dice for the hopes of high dice - if you want 6s you'll want ebon chalice.
With game having t1 as standard and even over 20" threat ranges starting 9" from your dz assuming you need no h2h is a mistake. Canoness can provide some h2h counterpunch that can't be shot out first that easily like say repentia
So, I haven't played any games against sisters yet. As a Custodes player this really scares me. Horde lists that have SM level shooting on the cheap cheap. Can we institute a fluff law, that say's it's impossible for Sisters to battle Custodes? It would break lore entirely.
tneva82 wrote: With game having t1 as standard and even over 20" threat ranges starting 9" from your dz assuming you need no h2h is a mistake. Canoness can provide some h2h counterpunch that can't be shot out first that easily like say repentia
I think you'd still want ebon chalice for that. If you are getting jumped T1 you won't have many miracle dice for a canoness to work with.
tneva82 wrote: With game having t1 as standard and even over 20" threat ranges starting 9" from your dz assuming you need no h2h is a mistake. Canoness can provide some h2h counterpunch that can't be shot out first that easily like say repentia
I think you'd still want ebon chalice for that. If you are getting jumped T1 you won't have many miracle dice for a canoness to work with.
My problem with Ebon Chalice is that getting jumped Turn 1 is perfect for me.
The tau player who played against my 2k list had 3 Zoot Suits (the coldstar commanders that zoot across the table) and he zipped over my lines 40" to kill my warlord after declaring Mont'ka. The nearby in-cover Celestians near an Imagifier with the Tale of the Stoic tanked the rest of his army's firepower. 3 Zoot Suits cleared out (since they fire separately) the models near the Canoness, then he fired 4 meltas at the canoness. It killed her.
Except it didn't, because Divine Intervention is a ridiculous 2CP strat that brought her back with 1 wound left (top of BR 1 means only 1 MD) but the Hospitaller healed her (remember, no roll for them!) up later. My army advanced forwards, and then fired backwards and utterly annihilated the Zoot Suits.
I PRAY to his Imperial majesty that the enemy jumps me turn 1. They'll slam into either Celestians or Battle Sisters, or they'll get overwatched with 12" heavy flamers from the HF Ret squad I run around with. They have automagically delivered themselves into a killing field, and all I lost was, what, 10 Sisters and a Canoness? ~90 points (depending on wargear. Here I am thinking 94 pts for 10 sisters). The Canoness comes back at the end of the phase for 2 CP, and you don't need a 6 on your MD for your canoness to burn it for a wound regeneration.
Your set up with Sisters reminds me of a someone i heard about going all-in on infantry guard awhile back, Unit.
"losses? these are not losses, they go to the Emperor, and their faith will slay you all the same!"
and the thing is.. it kind of works. all sister shooting wants a close range band, and thanks to splitfire and how we can specialize the units the opponent has to hit REALLY hard to wipe out enough stuff to not make losses easier to absorb. if they get really careless, the Hospitaller can put in work.
this is target saturation, but it works. if a character does go down? meh, miracle dice. and if you can wipe something out, more dice!
...and your list traded further durability for more speed at that. that is both worrying to me and amusing. both overall and from a Tau perspective.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, I haven't played any games against sisters yet. As a Custodes player this really scares me. Horde lists that have SM level shooting on the cheap cheap. Can we institute a fluff law, that say's it's impossible for Sisters to battle Custodes? It would break lore entirely.
It doesn't really anymore than Custodes existing as a 40k faction does.
Bdrone wrote: Your set up with Sisters reminds me of a someone i heard about going all-in on infantry guard awhile back, Unit.
"losses? these are not losses, they go to the Emperor, and their faith will slay you all the same!"
and the thing is.. it kind of works. all sister shooting wants a close range band, and thanks to splitfire and how we can specialize the units the opponent has to hit REALLY hard to wipe out enough stuff to not make losses easier to absorb. if they get really careless, the Hospitaller can put in work.
this is target saturation, but it works. if a character does go down? meh, miracle dice. and if you can wipe something out, more dice!
...and your list traded further durability for more speed at that. that is both worrying to me and amusing. both overall and from a Tau perspective.
I don't know if we really need higher durability, that's the thing. Power armor is fairly durable on a 9pt model. Honestly, based on those two games, I'm even thinking of ditching the 5++ bubble from my second-warlord-trait Canoness. It just didn't matter, I barely noticed. It was a blip on the radar in the whirlwind of blown up Sororitas and Tau.
People are talking like Valorous Heart is the answer, and by the Emperor they will be incredibly difficult to deal with. If I went VH and dropped to, say, 120 models, I could fit in two Imagifiers and make 120 3+ save models that ignore up to a -2. But then I can't kill anything, because I move 6" a turn if I want to shoot.
Argent Shroud just feels powerful. The army is like an angry blender. I typically leave a couple of HB squads back, cover the flanks with the 5-girl squads, and then blob up the Celestians, Canonesses, 10-girl BSSs, and 10-girl Rets in the middle of the board. The storm of firepower they grind out is just phenomenal in my experience. I've played Imperial Guard, and they have a ridiculous amount of fairly high-quality artillery fire, and lasguns are fun, but not 12" range heavy flamers fun. Not penaltyless multimeltas that move 7-12" per turn fun.
BrianDavion wrote: I mean TBH I'm not sure how anyone can rate the cannoness as a C+.
if you're willing to take a relic you can get her aura out to 12 inches. a 12 inch captain Aura can be VERY nice.
Just a point but I think you could make an argument that HQs should be judged without Relics, Warlord Traits etc.
Especially in armies with few HQ options.
Except you can buy both of those. And if you start to rate without stuff they can get you need to rate marines without doctrines and super doctrines as well
Only if you're completely disingenuous.
Doctrines and super-doctrines apply to all Marines.
Not all HQs will have a Warlord Trait.
Not all HQs will have a Relic.
HQs can never have the same Relic or Warlord Trait (so if, for example, you are basing your assessment of the Canoness on the Relic that allows her to have a 12" aura, how do you account for subsequent Canonesses who are unable to take that Relic?)
Additional Relics and/or Warlord Traits after the first cost CPs (yet this never seems to be included whenever a HQ is judged with Relics/Warlord Traits included)
Also don't forget the 12" aura is only for her RR1s. It isn't for any other auras she has (e.g. warlord traits). Those can only ever be 9" (and only with the Relic).
Having had practice matches against both new marines and Eldar, I gotta say that a lot of these are pretty low and I definitely don't agree with a lot of the rankings.
Miracle dice are obscenely good in practice. They're better than shock assault, bolter discipline, and ATSKNF combined. They even make up a lot of ground on combat doctrines. A+, regardless of one or multiple dice.
Exorcists being ranked worse than retributors is a joke(no offense intended) 1 Exorcist means your opponent is losing a multi-wound model, or getting their knight bracketed instantly. Combine that with the valorous heart strat and you're looking at a tank that can move twelve and roast a -3 flyer with confidence. It's better than the repulsor executioner in anything but ironhands and one of the best long range shooting vehicles out there. It's B+, A-.
Canoness's awkward equipment options doesn't really stop it from being the second best generic HQ in the game behind the space marine captain(non-primaris) B+
Saint Celestine is better than Junith. Not being locked into an order and giving penitent/mortifiers and invul puts her at a B.
Geminae are an F-. There are NOT worse things. They are the worse unit in the game. I'd rather take servitors.
Zephyrim are a B-. They're incredibly killy and MD guarantee they'll make charges from outside of Assault Centurion overwatch range, but they are fragile, expensive, and locked to bloody rose.
I think you undervalue repentia(and cqc) a single rhino of them can go under the radar and wipe out a castellan in one shot. I'd put them at B- for diffculty in actually using them.
Hospitallers are trash, stratagem or not. D-. UNLESS, you're running 100% infantry lists. Then C.
Arcos were seeing competitive play in sisters list BEFORE and they went down 2ppm. B-B+.
Seraphim are 83 points to instant kill a vehicle while generating a miracle dice, B+ for sure.
Mortifiers are awesome, decent shooting, great melee, cheap, more durable than you'd think, B+
Penitents are just worse mortifiers but still pretty darn good. B
Retributors are budget exorcists and...that's about it. C-C+
Rhinos are rhinos, C+ with an invul.
Immolators are trash. D- without scout, C with it.
All of your convictions except ebon chalice are a full letter grade lower than I'd put them.
As for the whole army? Somewhere in the B range. We'll see if it's + or - in the next few months but realistically we're better than a lot of armies in the game and have favorable matchups against Eldar, Tau, and 3 out of the 4 popular space marine tactics.
tneva82 wrote: With game having t1 as standard and even over 20" threat ranges starting 9" from your dz assuming you need no h2h is a mistake. Canoness can provide some h2h counterpunch that can't be shot out first that easily like say repentia
I think you'd still want ebon chalice for that. If you are getting jumped T1 you won't have many miracle dice for a canoness to work with.
My problem with Ebon Chalice is that getting jumped Turn 1 is perfect for me.
The tau player who played against my 2k list had 3 Zoot Suits (the coldstar commanders that zoot across the table) and he zipped over my lines 40" to kill my warlord after declaring Mont'ka. The nearby in-cover Celestians near an Imagifier with the Tale of the Stoic tanked the rest of his army's firepower. 3 Zoot Suits cleared out (since they fire separately) the models near the Canoness, then he fired 4 meltas at the canoness. It killed her.
Except it didn't, because Divine Intervention is a ridiculous 2CP strat that brought her back with 1 wound left (top of BR 1 means only 1 MD) but the Hospitaller healed her (remember, no roll for them!) up later. My army advanced forwards, and then fired backwards and utterly annihilated the Zoot Suits.
I PRAY to his Imperial majesty that the enemy jumps me turn 1. They'll slam into either Celestians or Battle Sisters, or they'll get overwatched with 12" heavy flamers from the HF Ret squad I run around with. They have automagically delivered themselves into a killing field, and all I lost was, what, 10 Sisters and a Canoness? ~90 points (depending on wargear. Here I am thinking 94 pts for 10 sisters). The Canoness comes back at the end of the phase for 2 CP, and you don't need a 6 on your MD for your canoness to burn it for a wound regeneration.
I gotta say that normally when people use an army in a way other than what I personally think is powerful, my first thought is to scoff at them being inefficient(which is a flaw, I know). But your argent shroud centric strat is deeply interesting. It's a style of army basically no one will expect and very few armies are actually equipped to deal with.
You could argue the theoretical ceiling of a setup like this until the sun went out, but the fact of the matter is that most armies just won't have enough guns to kill you before you start killing them, and you are SHOCKINGLY fast for an infantry army. Even IF Thunderfire cannons won't do much, especially if they have to leave devastator doctrine for whatever reason.
I don't know if we really need higher durability, that's the thing. Power armor is fairly durable on a 9pt model. Honestly, based on those two games, I'm even thinking of ditching the 5++ bubble from my second-warlord-trait Canoness. It just didn't matter, I barely noticed. It was a blip on the radar in the whirlwind of blown up Sororitas and Tau.
well, i am suitably intrigued. both from you and Erjacks last posts. so what sacred rites did you take on and find valuable thusfar, and how do you employ your miracle dice? would you think to lean into that if you toss that other Warlord trait?
I don't know if we really need higher durability, that's the thing. Power armor is fairly durable on a 9pt model. Honestly, based on those two games, I'm even thinking of ditching the 5++ bubble from my second-warlord-trait Canoness. It just didn't matter, I barely noticed. It was a blip on the radar in the whirlwind of blown up Sororitas and Tau.
well, i am suitably intrigued. both from you and Erjacks last posts. so what sacred rites did you take on and find valuable thusfar, and how do you employ your miracle dice? would you think to lean into that if you toss that other Warlord trait?
I literally just threw dice for my sacred rites, using the stratagem to reroll duplicates and in my Tau games the anti-psyker deny one I got once.
My miracle dice were saved if they were large, while the low ones were burned for Moment of Grace and for Divine Intervention. I didn't find many uses for the large ones but Damage is obviously a big one, and auto-hitting on Overwatch for 6s.
The first game I got Divine Guidance and the Hand of the Emperor, and both were super good. Divine Guidance army-wide with 127 sisters firing over 200 shots is a whole lotta -1 AP where it has no right to be.
The second game, I got Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr. Spirit of the Martyr literally affected my opponent's target priority after a dying Celestian meltagun nearly one-shotted his Zoot Suit in his own shooting phase - he would literally maneuver into sub-optimal positions just to be outside melta range before shooting.
I can't say the same, Sim-life. If any Codex had a lot riding on it, it was this one.
Optimism was everywhere, but after seeing people who didn't even know how shield of faith worked during the beta dex cycle, i wasn't confident with this book myself, and since im not able to test it, i still am in a wavering position.
on top of that, the miracle dice mechanic and other things within the book make this far more player-driven to find out where it really shines, like how some people have claimed the aura overlaps are "warmachine"-like. combining such a book in a sea of obvious "well this gives you this." books, combined with who knows how many people were riding on this book being good, is going to cause issue both ways.
where this book, like any will bear out, is in play. and over months. i want to see where this goes, even if during all this My own interest in the army has wavered, and my Ageless Dream may have come to an end. between this stuff, PA, and CA2019, things have definitely not gotten dull.
I have always been negative about the point of horde armies with gun line esque play styles, but I've said from the beginning I love the models, and this is what 40k models should be like.
Addendum: The new repentia is, well, odd aesthetically. It doesn't match the fluff in the least, and it seemingly goes against the idea of the repentia squad in the first place. They are stripped of all armor except a robe and a hood, and given a big sword, and told to die in combat. This looks more, necromundaish.
...yeah, i don't care for the new Repentia. that was one of my big breakers with this one. the limited edition new Mistress of Repetence was my favorite model of the limited edition box, but the multipart one is a solid ehh.
if they had done a thing with robes and hoods, id be more on board. the power armor interface plugs were not a thing i roll with either, adding to a number of models id have to doctor somewhat to enjoy.
a filing here, a removal of bling there, eventually a bits box of random cherubs and other stuff because my idea of sisters is more practically looking due to limited material than this current iteration by a decent margin sort of thing.
that said, Repentia were one of the winners of older units in the codex from what i saw. hit about the same, except now they have Zealot , benefit from every rule that can buff melee in the codex because of their keywords, and they got a FNP equiavlent (i think) plus a miracle dice when the unit busts. far better than they use to be.
oh yeah, and since they can use miracle dice, you can use it on their charges, if the other ways to reroll them aren't up your alley or you NEED that long bomb.
vipoid wrote: [qu
Only if you're completely disingenuous.
Doctrines and super-doctrines apply to all Marines.
Not all HQs will have a Warlord Trait.
Not all HQs will have a Relic.
HQs can never have the same Relic or Warlord Trait (so if, for example, you are basing your assessment of the Canoness on the Relic that allows her to have a 12" aura, how do you account for subsequent Canonesses who are unable to take that Relic?)
Additional Relics and/or Warlord Traits after the first cost CPs (yet this never seems to be included whenever a HQ is judged with Relics/Warlord Traits included)
So on your logic blood angel captains just suck. They are more like C or D category. Because they come into play only with traits and relics.
Good to know. Blood angel captains sucked from the get-go when BA codex arrived. Funny sucky lousy crappy unit like that appeared suddenly everywhere...
Maybe because it's dishonest as hell to rank stuff ignoring stuff they can have. That's just deliberately misleading people.
Unit1126PLL wrote: My first few games have utterly stunned my opponents with the amount of firepower Sororitas have sub-12".
... how?
It's bolters and meltaguns.
No special ammo, no mortal wounds, no double shooting. How is anyone stunned by this, from a sisters list of all things?
Quantity and endurance.
The Tau player killed something like 80 sisters over the course of our 2k game. At the end, I still had:
~20-30 bolters that were constantly in rapid fire (40-60 shots) because I could advance faster than they could withdraw.
~6 of my multimeltas that were constantly in melta range (hospitaller kept bringing them back) that could advance and shoot with no penalty faster than they could withdraw
10 Seraphim, in 2 squads of 5 (one with 4 hand flamers and one with 4 inferno pistols) that simply didn't register on my opponent's target list because they were so small.
~6-8 storm bolters constantly in rapid fire (24-32 shots) because I could advance faster than they could withdraw.
A smattering of my other special weapons - a melta BSS squad ended with 4 members, including 2 meltas and a combi-melta, and a couple of my backfield objective holder squads with heavy bolters were still kicking. I had a heavy flamer ret running around at the end as well, though not close enough to the hospitaller to return any friendos.
My characters were mostly alive (2 of my 3 canonesses died because I hurled them into melee like ballistic missiles, but the others stayed in the blob.)
The Tau were 80 sisters deep (2/3rds of my list) but because of our cheap, durable bodies, that was hardly a dent in my meaningful firepower. I also did clever tricks like hiding most of a Ret Squad out of LOS so that they'd blast them down to a couple members, and then my hospitaller could bring an MM back as they advanced again.
My list has 127 sororitas in it. Kill 80 or so and I've got nearly 50 left, and they're cheap enough that my special weapons are spread all over the place which makes targeting somewhat hard.
This is very interesting indeed. Something to think about.
Celtic Strike wrote: Shoot as if you haven't advanced. NOT as if you haven't moved...
If you have to advance and fire your Heavy bolters, you're still hitting on 4's and made a Will Arnett level error.
Grade: D-
Remember the faithful advance rule. Retributors can move, advance, and then fire their heavy weapons with no penalty.
I did forget this. This is very interesting now that you bring that up. I'll have to come back to this when I have little more time. Thank you.
vipoid wrote: [qu
Only if you're completely disingenuous.
Doctrines and super-doctrines apply to all Marines.
Not all HQs will have a Warlord Trait.
Not all HQs will have a Relic.
HQs can never have the same Relic or Warlord Trait (so if, for example, you are basing your assessment of the Canoness on the Relic that allows her to have a 12" aura, how do you account for subsequent Canonesses who are unable to take that Relic?)
Additional Relics and/or Warlord Traits after the first cost CPs (yet this never seems to be included whenever a HQ is judged with Relics/Warlord Traits included)
So on your logic blood angel captains just suck. They are more like C or D category. Because they come into play only with traits and relics.
Good to know. Blood angel captains sucked from the get-go when BA codex arrived. Funny sucky lousy crappy unit like that appeared suddenly everywhere...
Maybe because it's dishonest as hell to rank stuff ignoring stuff they can have. That's just deliberately misleading people.
I don't think he's wrong TBH that you should look at a unit by itself, without relics, especially when the list mandates you taking several (due to a lack of HQ choices in the army) but yeah I agree you absolutely should look at relics and warlord traits for any power combos for your HQ units.
vipoid wrote: [qu
Only if you're completely disingenuous.
Doctrines and super-doctrines apply to all Marines.
Not all HQs will have a Warlord Trait.
Not all HQs will have a Relic.
HQs can never have the same Relic or Warlord Trait (so if, for example, you are basing your assessment of the Canoness on the Relic that allows her to have a 12" aura, how do you account for subsequent Canonesses who are unable to take that Relic?)
Additional Relics and/or Warlord Traits after the first cost CPs (yet this never seems to be included whenever a HQ is judged with Relics/Warlord Traits included)
So on your logic blood angel captains just suck. They are more like C or D category. Because they come into play only with traits and relics.
Good to know. Blood angel captains sucked from the get-go when BA codex arrived. Funny sucky lousy crappy unit like that appeared suddenly everywhere...
Maybe because it's dishonest as hell to rank stuff ignoring stuff they can have. That's just deliberately misleading people.
SM Captain with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield is a good melee model, you can take a list full of them and they are all equally terrifying. You just don't do that because it's expensive and tou have other options.
Lammia wrote: SM Captain with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield is a good melee model, you can take a list full of them and they are all equally terrifying. You just don't do that because it's expensive and tou have other options.
Not sure this is a good fight to get into - but if they are expensive and you have other options, they are likely not that good.
I know people tried to make 3 captains work - but the general consensus was no, it didn't. Because the Blood Angel captain relies on various things coming together to create a monster. A second just about works (since you can throw stratagems into him if the first dies early and take another reasonable relic), but you are paying too much for the added redundancy of the third.
Which isn't to say a captain is a bad model per se, but its not setting the world on fire without that combination. As you say - its expensive and you have other options.
Its Archon Envy - but if the Canoness was baseline 70 points, for reasons, she'd be much, much worse, even though her potential loadouts are the same.
For one model you might say an extra 25 points isn't *that much* - but 75 points when you take 3 (as you may do - special characters depending) would feel like agony.
One might be worth taking because of the added relic and trait - but by the time you get to number 3 its clearly a tax.
Its partly why I don't think Faith and Fury helped CSM that much. For most of the legions it just facilitated hero hammer - i.e. you can have 1 or 2 really tooled our characters who are going to blend anything they get into contact with. But two good characters can't typically carry a list or a faction. In conjunction with the CA changes though I think things will change.
Lammia wrote: SM Captain with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield is a good melee model, you can take a list full of them and they are all equally terrifying. You just don't do that because it's expensive and tou have other options.
Not sure this is a good fight to get into - but if they are expensive and you have other options, they are likely not that good.
I know people tried to make 3 captains work - but the general consensus was no, it didn't. Because the Blood Angel captain relies on various things coming together to create a monster. A second just about works (since you can throw stratagems into him if the first dies early and take another reasonable relic), but you are paying too much for the added redundancy of the third.
Which isn't to say a captain is a bad model per se, but its not setting the world on fire without that combination. As you say - its expensive and you have other options.
Its Archon Envy - but if the Canoness was baseline 70 points, for reasons, she'd be much, much worse, even though her potential loadouts are the same.
For one model you might say an extra 25 points isn't *that much* - but 75 points when you take 3 (as you may do - special characters depending) would feel like agony.
One might be worth taking because of the added relic and trait - but by the time you get to number 3 its clearly a tax.
Its partly why I don't think Faith and Fury helped CSM that much. For most of the legions it just facilitated hero hammer - i.e. you can have 1 or 2 really tooled our characters who are going to blend anything they get into contact with. But two good characters can't typically carry a list or a faction. In conjunction with the CA changes though I think things will change.
Oh, she's a great HQ at her cost. But measuring her value by 1 Unique upgrade (one Relic, one WL trait) is a mistake.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, that's not true. It depends on how useful this particular Relic can be and how it scales with other Canoness' presence on the board.
My package hasn't arrived yet, so I haven't had the opportunity to play the new codex yet, but here are Katherine's gradings so far on the abilities, stratagems, and traits:
Starting at the top with Order special options:
In general, among these, the Conviction is the most important factor in deciding what Order to pick, since it applies to all units in the detachment and you have to have it instead of any other options if you want to use the other three features so you can't get around it being weak. Stratagem, Warlord, and Relic are less important since you don't have to use them if they're weak and you just like the Conviction. Of them, Stratagem is the most important since if it's good it can frequently make it worth making a specific set of your army out of a subfaction, but Warlord and Relic are just kind of bonuses to already having the subfaction selected and will eat into your ability to use those of other subfactions and factions within your list.
Spoiler:
Order of the Valorous Heart: A-
Conviction: B+. Ignoring AP-1 or AP-2 is an okay ability. It's almost tailor-made to face off Space Marines with a foothorde of Sisters. It's worth mention that efficiency wise, AP-1 [&2 with doctrines] is basically the worst thing in the world for an MEQ unit, so being able to shake it is a decent ability. That said, there's also a lot of armies that really just won't give a damn with everything running AP0 or AP-3+. This trait also gets an honorable mention for being one of the few that actually achieves anything meaningful for vehicles, even if it's not exactly the most useful buff to vehicles ever, it's not wholly useless or outright defunct on a Exorcist. This is probably the overall best-in-the-book Conviction, though it's not awesome by the global standard and requires a character to actually achieve it's usefulness potential [were it not for it's stacking with the Imagifier, it'd be graded about a C+ since it's an initially weakish ability that is also weaker than similar abilities globally].
Warlord: D. There's better traits in the book, and while a 5+++ might be pretty cool on something already absurdly hard to kill like a T6 W7 Sv2+/3++ model that moves 14" a turn, a Canoness isn't that resilient. It could be worse, though.
Stratagem: A. Ignoring penalties to hit in shooting is pretty awesome. Not only can you tell Space Marines to stuff their bolt rifles up their ass, you can blast right through all the stacking -1's. It also works on vehicles apparently, so this further cements this Order as the one for Exorcists, since one of your tanks can be moving and spending CP to not take the penalty.
Relic: C. This relic has an effect that has potential, but can't be properly capitalized on in-faction.
This is probably the best order in the book, and one of the two to consider assigning the bulk of your force too. As the only one with good benefits for vehicles, if you want Argent Shroud for your main infantry arm, you should be segregating your Exorcists into Valorous Heart.
Order of the Argent Shroud: B
Conviction: B. Advancing and firing as if you didn't is pretty decent considering the remarkably short range of weapons in our inventory. This gives your infantry groups improved mobility to get to good positions, and can make deciding differences in your ability to bring important weapons systems onto target. However, it doesn't compare favorably with similar incarnations of this ability out there in Sautekh and Tallarn. Compared with Sautekh, you do get to rapid-fire after advancing, so it's a little stronger on infantry [Meltaguns are assault anyway, though, and Pistols don't Rapid-Fire], but it doesn't come with the ability to ignore movement penalties for Heavy Weapons, which is a big downside. Tallarn is the ultimate form of this ability, with both the ability to advance and rapid fire, advance and ignore Assault penalties, and move and fire Heavy Weapons as a vehicle. This is a good ability on Seraphim, who are no longer really keen on charging and can use the extra D6 movement to make up for their completely crap range.
Warlord: B+. This is a cool trait. 6" Heroic and striking first is good for a countercharger to protect your line of otherwise mostly incapable in melee Sisters. 6" Heroic is also just a decent ability for a character to have, and it doesn't interfere with her ability to take relics and wargear to be awesome in close quarters combat. Is it better than Righteous Rage, though?
Stratagem: F. 5+++ versus mortal wounds for 1 unit in the psychic phase? You shouldn't spend CP on this.
Relic: D. A shiny hat is nice and all, but people really shouldn't be shooting at her that much, and if they are, it's not going to save you. It also competes with better relics, and there's plenty of ways to be adequately safe from dying if you aren't losing badly.
This is the other order to consider making the bulk of your army out of. It's weaker than many similar subfactions in the pool, but in the restricted case of the codex, it's decent enough. Basically I'd say it's minimum passing grade.
Order of the Bloody Rose: B+
Conviction: B+. +1 AP and +1A is decent, period. It's somewhat restrained through by the fact that there's few units to actually take advantage of it, but the one [three] that do really do. Like Valorous Heart, to really make it work, you need to have a Imagifier to actually be good in melee, without which it'll drop to a B+ or so. It's not the best for the army universally, but it's so good on the units it's good on and isn't garbage on so many more that you could even make it your whole army if you don't want to fiddle with detachments.
Warlord: C+. Advancing and charging is nice for the Canoness. +1A is icing on the cake. That said, there are better in the book for the Bloody Rose, so you take this as your second trait if you're forgoing other ones.
Stratagem: A. +1 to Wound in Close Quarters. Yes please! Watch Repentia turn Knights into ribbons [30 wounds average on the first pass from a full squad], or eat enemy units alive with your Canoness.
Relic: A. The Chainsaw of Bloody Dismemberment is made out of awesome. Take Righteous Rage and stay near an Imagifier [and/or pop the stratagem] to do your best Captain Smash impression. Things will die, blood will flow, and Khorne"The Emperor" will be pleased.
This order is the order for your Canonii, Repentia, and Zephyrim. On the units that benefit from it, it's really, really good. On the rest of your units, it'll be okay, so there's not actually harm in making your whole army this, though other units would rather have Argent Shroud or Valorous Heart. In general, I'd chose to make a Vanguard or Battalion Bloody Rose, and the rest something else.
Order of the Ebon Chalice C+
Conviction: C-. Spend 2 Miracle Dice to make one count as a 6. Uh... this is pretty limited in use. It is fairly unique though, but making 1 damage roll a turn a 6 just isn't worth your entire army trait. That's a 1CP stratagem or warlord trait level ability. You can use this to benefit Exorcists, though it's still fundamentally limited by being basically once per phase which is still weak for an army trait.
Warlord: B-. Congratulations, you just make your Conviction obsolete! It's better in a vacuum than tied to the conviction, so just bringing a character with this trait along can prove valuable to help your non-Ebon Chalice units make their charges or max out their damage rolls. If you want this, you can make your tank hunter squadron lead by her since AT weapons are AP-3 often times anyway.
Stratagem: C+. Max out flamer shots would be better if you could get as many flamers as an aggressor squad. Might be worth it for doms with flamers, but probably not worth losing Argent Shroud or Valorous Heart for rets.
Relic: F. You're not going to actually kill anybody with this.
The okay Warlord Trait is stuck with a really bad conviction, but this is an alternate option for your exorcist battery if the rest of your army is Argent Shroud or Bloody Rose, since a 6 for an advance roll for AS or a charge roll for BR would make your day.
Order of the Sacred Rose: D
Conviction: D+. Refunding Miracle dice isn't a worthwhile endeavour. In an MSU army, which you are, preventing morale loss isn't worth losing a potentially actually useful trait. Overwatching on 5+'s is only good if you can also overwatch with the right kind of weapon, otherwise it's also largely pointless.
Warlord: F+. If the warlord uses the miracle dice for herself, refund it. At least you got the miracle die you wasted back, but you don't get the opportunity to use it back.
Stratagem: C. Exploding bolters for one unit is a pass. Maybe if you got as many attacks from that one unit as aggressors... but you don't.
Relic. D. Okay get to hate a little bit on Daemons. It's still not even that strong against them, and is otherwise defunct. A single-faction hate relic's going rate is the Relic of Lost Cadia, this doesn't hold a torch.
All right, we're starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel. There's nothing here worth taking this order for. But we haven't reached the bottom yet, because...
Order of Our Martyred Lady: F
Conviction: F. It's defunct when you're winning, and requires your enemy to politely cooperate with you in order to actually be useful even then. Also, it requires you to bring large squads to even have any hope of getting any use out of, which you probably don't want to be doing too much anyway.
Warlord: D-. Congratulations, you're a Terminator!
Stratagem: D+. A character died, and now your whole army gets the benefit of the most common kind of character in your army who you almost have to have three of anyway. Woo.
Relic: D-. It's not like gun relics are usually best in class, and it's an Inferno Pistol on a foot unit that can't advance and shoot. At least it's S9.
Special Character: C. Rule34!Calgar got one thing going for her, and that's that she has a lieutenant aura which nobody else does. On the downside, you've got to have this Order to get it, so the whole package isn't worthwhile.
If your trait is only worthwhile when you're losing the game, it better actually turn the tide of battle. This doesn't, so it's like picking to not have a trait.
Moving on to the Warlord Traits and Relics:
As a whole, Relics can score more highly for just being passable than Warlord Traits because many relics can be handed out if they're worth a CP for the bearer to carry, but taking any given warlord trait means not having a different one.
Spoiler:
Righteous Rage: A. It's that time of month for Ms. Stabby. It's always that time of month. Give this to your Canoness with the Chainsaw of Bloody Dismemberment.
Indomitable Belief: A-. Now all your nearby people have a 5++. Warlord traits don't have to go to Canonii, so an Imagifier can have this and stand with the Bloody Rose Repentia [and Celestine] to make them 4++/5+++.
Beacon of Faith: B-. +1 Miracle Dice. Not worth having over the better options, but like, it could be worse.
Inspiring Orator: C-. Run less. It's not like you cared all that much in the first place.
Pure of Faith: F+. You get another 1d6 deny roll to not succeed with.
Executioner of Heretics: F+. Ask the night lords how much stacking -1 leadership works out for them, and then consider that this is on one model and has little to stack with.
Blade of Admonition: A-. Unfortunately went up in cost, but it does to 3 damage. Give it to a Canoness.
Burning Stick of No More Fun: B+. You must take this for Shield of Faith to actually do anything. While it's not guaranteed to work, it actually might now as opposed to always failing.
Bolt Pistol of Many Bullets: D. There aren't many good gun relics, what made you think this one was different.
Litanies of Faith: A-. Re-roll your Miracle dice to make them go farther. Probably worth the CP to have some backfield character hanging out with the Exorcists carry it.
Mantle of Orphelia: C+. You already have a 4++, and it can only go on Canonii. It would be good on a Imagifier, but alas.
Tryptech of Marcharius: D. Woo. a FNP. Not worth a CP Book of Loudness: B-. Wider Auras are nice, though most of the time 6" is wide enough.
Iron Corset of Saint Istalia: B-. Probably the best of the survivability relics. Still probably not worth the CP, since there are other relics you want.
On to Sacred Vows:
Each of these not only locks out having the other ones, but also locks out having the Loyal 32 or Thunderfire Guns or Knight Support or whatever soup of the day you feel like having. They have to be stronger than both each other, and stronger than potential allies, to be worthwhile.
Spoiler:
Hand of the Emperor: B+. Argent Shroud and Bloody Rose can both make good use of this. Probably the best of the lot.
The Passion: B-. Death to the False Everything would be nice for Bloody Rose. However, is it worth not being able to suppress overwatch with Thunderfire Guns or Pounding Barrage? Probably not you're killy enough as is.
Aegis of the Emperor: C+. If you also have the Burning Stick of No More Fun, these two will stack to be really good against some armies. Unfortunately, a great many armies just won't care about your great investment in stopping their fun.
Divine Guidance: D+. Everything either has good AP already and isn't likely to provoke this, or is going to see this as a drop in the bucket.
Light of the Emperor: C-. And We Shall Know No Fear. This is definitely not worth being able to take allies.
Spirit of the Martyr: C+. A 5+ chance to shoot when you die is questionable on the best of day, and definitely not worth not souping.
The long and short is, that none of these are worth not being able to bring other Imperial assets to help out. Even if you're mono, you'll not really be noticing the difference, but you should probably shoot for Aegis if the time calls for it, otherwise Hand.
For stratagems:
Spoiler:
Open the Reliquaries: A+ Now we can have many relics. There are at least 3 relics I have my eye on, and it makes all the relics more useful since the cost and opportunity cost of taking them is reduced.
Prophecy: C+ re-roll wounds of 1 if you have Zephyrim. Okay, maybe, if you have Zerphyrim and can buff them with an Imagifier, this will make them do some work. Maybe.
Furious Recital: F With such a name, I want to like the stratagem, but like doing leadership penalites as single-faction hate isn't really a worthwhile use of time or page space
Blazing Piety: F Weak single-faction hate.
Battle Rites: D- Change your sacred rite. You have to change it with a die roll. In general, when you want to change your rite, you want to change it too something, not away from something.
Moment of Grace: B+. Spend Miracle Dice to add +1 to rolls after making the roll. Decent, and probably better than the miracle dice themselves.
Final Redemption: C-. Repentia do mortals half the time when the die. That's not that good.
Martyr's Immolation: B-. Like many real fanatic sectarian groups, the Sisters of Battle have car bombs. There are good odds you will have an Immolator in your army, and only moderately worse odds that you will find a good time to do D3 mortal wounds to nearby enemy units. Funny and good when it happens, and a neat tool in your pocket, but not something to be building around.
Holy Trinity: B+. Wound support for your meltaguns. Decent, but only because a combi-flamer is much cheaper than a combi-melta [for a squad of 4 meltaguns, it's statistically about the same as arming the sergeant with a combi melta]
More Warlords: A+. There are more than one good warlord trait option in the book, so might as well take 2.
Reanimation: A+. Spend Miracle Dice, and you don't even have to roll to stand back up. Necrons wish they were so cool.
Holy Rage: A. Advance and Charge is good, but watch out for outrunning your support.
Faith and Fury: B-. Basically, your one shot is going to hit and wound. That said, it's one shot.
Martyred: B. Gain CP when your warlord dies. A booby prize for her death, but could be worse. Always use it when she dies if you don't reanimate her, because it's effectively free.
Venerated Saint: C. Imagifier gets 2 abilities. Odds are, the one providing +1S doesn't also need to be providing ignore AP-1.
Suffer not the Witch: C. If you could pick out psykers maybe this would do something. As is, use it to make Tyranids unhappy, otherwise, kind of ignore it.
Storm of Retribution: B-. This one is complicated, but is fundamentally 3 1CP stratagems in 1 2CP stratagem, that don't all take effect together. 2CP for a shooting stratagem should give you a second salvo, the going rate for +1 to hit is 1CP. The other functions are all also 1CP abilities, with the melta function being the closest to a 2CP ability.
Last Rites: B+. Autopass Morale if there's a Hosptialler there. Basically a cheaper but conditional version of the base 2CP one.
Devastating Refrain: B+. Your Exorcist may re-roll outputs, but use it before it fires. Awesome name.
Deadly Descent: C-. It doesn't last until the end of the turn, so it's only for the special salvo they get on arrival. In terms of firepower, it's roughly equivalent to starting them on the board, but they won't be able to get into short melta range in exchange for not being able to be shot off and having a tough charge.
Vessel of His Will: C-. Turn a CP into a Miracle Dice. The only two uses I can see for this are for fueling the resurrection or +1 to a die roll stratagems. CP are generally more useful
Test of Faith: C-. Turn CP into more Miracle Dice, but not on demand.
Proficient: B- Celestians get to re-roll hits and wounds. This doesn't make them good, probably.
Blessed Bolts: A- Okay for Dominions with Storm Bolters, and useful for killing Primaris. Niche, but good when it's in useful.
Purity of Faith: A+. Against most armies, this will break that one power they were counting on more effectively than the burning stick of no more fun and the sacred rite combined.
Judgement of the Faithful: A. Shoot when falling back. Good, especially considering the short range. Works on tanks.
Triggered: B-. Make Arcos killier. Not really super worthwhile, but maybe.
Desperate for Redemption: A. Fight Twice with Repentia or Mortifiers or Pengines. While most 3CP fight twice stratagems let you target any unit [because you wanted to use this on Chainsaw Canoness, right?], you were probably going to hit Repentia with it anyway.
Stratagems are overall good. There is unfortunately none to suppress overwatch, which would have been good for an Exorcist or something and would have made the Sacred Rites more appealing since you wouldn't have to source in Thunderfire Guns or Basilisks to be able to charge Centurions or Aggressors or a lot of things since Repentia are really fragile.
As for unit changes:
Spoiler:
Exorcist: C+. Unfortunately, you're going to have to live with it because it's the only thing that can reach out and touch someone, but going up all those points isn't worth the better launcher in the least.
Zephyrim: C. Maybe you can get something out of them with Bloody Rose. Are Banshees good, though?
Retributors: A-. Whatever weapon you chose, a solid option. Apparently, being angry is the final technological development in weapons stabilization, and I can run and hip-fire a heavy machinegun more accurately than tanks with laser-guided rockets, gyrostabilized gunlaying systems, and/or multispecturm optics as long as I'm very, very cross.
Motifiers: B. A Pentient Engine by another name acts like a Penitent Engine.
Dominions: B+. Not being able to scout transports makes them sad, but they were already made sad by the existence of the Space Marines.
Imagifier: A. These girls are must haves for your army for some subfactions and builds.
Hospitaller: B. The best medic in the game, but medics aren't that great.
Dialogus: C. is changing miracle dice worth a character? Not really.
Triumph of Saint Katherine: D. For a unit that not only shares my name, but proclaims my victory, I want to like this. That said, a T3 Sv3+ character with 18 wounds isn't going to be good in any world, and it's buffs aren't really that good.
All in all, I would grade our codex as a C+ or a B-. It's not good. C's get degrees, but don't get jobs [or degrees in Grad School]; and in line with that I think it'll be okay for ****ing around with low tier casual lists, but not going to get any call backs when it matters.
My package hasn't arrived yet, so I haven't had the opportunity to play the new codex yet, but here are Katherine's gradings so far on the abilities, stratagems, and traits:
Starting at the top with Order special options:
In general, among these, the Conviction is the most important factor in deciding what Order to pick, since it applies to all units in the detachment and you have to have it instead of any other options if you want to use the other three features so you can't get around it being weak. Stratagem, Warlord, and Relic are less important since you don't have to use them if they're weak and you just like the Conviction. Of them, Stratagem is the most important since if it's good it can frequently make it worth making a specific set of your army out of a subfaction, but Warlord and Relic are just kind of bonuses to already having the subfaction selected and will eat into your ability to use those of other subfactions and factions within your list.
[spoiler]Order of the Valorous Heart: A-
Conviction: B+. Ignoring AP-1 or AP-2 is an okay ability. It's almost tailor-made to face off Space Marines with a foothorde of Sisters. It's worth mention that efficiency wise, AP-1 [&2 with doctrines] is basically the worst thing in the world for an MEQ unit, so being able to shake it is a decent ability. That said, there's also a lot of armies that really just won't give a damn with everything running AP0 or AP-3+. This trait also gets an honorable mention for being one of the few that actually achieves anything meaningful for vehicles, even if it's not exactly the most useful buff to vehicles ever, it's not wholly useless or outright defunct on a Exorcist. This is probably the overall best-in-the-book Conviction, though it's not awesome by the global standard and requires a character to actually achieve it's usefulness potential [were it not for it's stacking with the Imagifier, it'd be graded about a C+ since it's an initially weakish ability that is also weaker than similar abilities globally].
Warlord: D. There's better traits in the book, and while a 5+++ might be pretty cool on something already absurdly hard to kill like a T6 W7 Sv2+/3++ model that moves 14" a turn, a Canoness isn't that resilient. It could be worse, though.
Stratagem: A. Ignoring penalties to hit in shooting is pretty awesome. Not only can you tell Space Marines to stuff their bolt rifles up their ass, you can blast right through all the stacking -1's. It also works on vehicles apparently, so this further cements this Order as the one for Exorcists, since one of your tanks can be moving and spending CP to not take the penalty.
Relic: C. This relic has an effect that has potential, but can't be properly capitalized on in-faction.
This is probably the best order in the book, and one of the two to consider assigning the bulk of your force too. As the only one with good benefits for vehicles, if you want Argent Shroud for your main infantry arm, you should be segregating your Exorcists into Valorous Heart.
Order of the Argent Shroud: B
Conviction: B. Advancing and firing as if you didn't is pretty decent considering the remarkably short range of weapons in our inventory. This gives your infantry groups improved mobility to get to good positions, and can make deciding differences in your ability to bring important weapons systems onto target. However, it doesn't compare favorably with similar incarnations of this ability out there in Sautekh and Tallarn. Compared with Sautekh, you do get to rapid-fire after advancing, so it's a little stronger on infantry [Meltaguns are assault anyway, though, and Pistols don't Rapid-Fire], but it doesn't come with the ability to ignore movement penalties for Heavy Weapons, which is a big downside. Tallarn is the ultimate form of this ability, with both the ability to advance and rapid fire, advance and ignore Assault penalties, and move and fire Heavy Weapons as a vehicle. This is a good ability on Seraphim, who are no longer really keen on charging and can use the extra D6 movement to make up for their completely crap range.
Warlord: B+. This is a cool trait. 6" Heroic and striking first is good for a countercharger to protect your line of otherwise mostly incapable in melee Sisters. 6" Heroic is also just a decent ability for a character to have, and it doesn't interfere with her ability to take relics and wargear to be awesome in close quarters combat. Is it better than Righteous Rage, though?
Stratagem: F. 5+++ versus mortal wounds for 1 unit in the psychic phase? You shouldn't spend CP on this.
Relic: D. A shiny hat is nice and all, but people really shouldn't be shooting at her that much, and if they are, it's not going to save you. It also competes with better relics, and there's plenty of ways to be adequately safe from dying if you aren't losing badly.
This is the other order to consider making the bulk of your army out of. It's weaker than many similar subfactions in the pool, but in the restricted case of the codex, it's decent enough. Basically I'd say it's minimum passing grade.
Order of the Bloody Rose: B+
Conviction: B+. +1 AP and +1A is decent, period. It's somewhat restrained through by the fact that there's few units to actually take advantage of it, but the one [three] that do really do. Like Valorous Heart, to really make it work, you need to have a Imagifier to actually be good in melee, without which it'll drop to a B+ or so. It's not the best for the army universally, but it's so good on the units it's good on and isn't garbage on so many more that you could even make it your whole army if you don't want to fiddle with detachments.
Warlord: C+. Advancing and charging is nice for the Canoness. +1A is icing on the cake. That said, there are better in the book for the Bloody Rose, so you take this as your second trait if you're forgoing other ones.
Stratagem: A. +1 to Wound in Close Quarters. Yes please! Watch Repentia turn Knights into ribbons [30 wounds average on the first pass from a full squad], or eat enemy units alive with your Canoness.
Relic: A. The Chainsaw of Bloody Dismemberment is made out of awesome. Take Righteous Rage and stay near an Imagifier [and/or pop the stratagem] to do your best Captain Smash impression. Things will die, blood will flow, and Khorne"The Emperor" will be pleased.
This order is the order for your Canonii, Repentia, and Zephyrim. On the units that benefit from it, it's really, really good. On the rest of your units, it'll be okay, so there's not actually harm in making your whole army this, though other units would rather have Argent Shroud or Valorous Heart. In general, I'd chose to make a Vanguard or Battalion Bloody Rose, and the rest something else.
Order of the Ebon Chalice C+
Conviction: C-. Spend 2 Miracle Dice to make one count as a 6. Uh... this is pretty limited in use. It is fairly unique though, but making 1 damage roll a turn a 6 just isn't worth your entire army trait. That's a 1CP stratagem or warlord trait level ability. You can use this to benefit Exorcists, though it's still fundamentally limited by being basically once per phase which is still weak for an army trait.
Warlord: B-. Congratulations, you just make your Conviction obsolete! It's better in a vacuum than tied to the conviction, so just bringing a character with this trait along can prove valuable to help your non-Ebon Chalice units make their charges or max out their damage rolls. If you want this, you can make your tank hunter squadron lead by her since AT weapons are AP-3 often times anyway.
Stratagem: C+. Max out flamer shots would be better if you could get as many flamers as an aggressor squad. Might be worth it for doms with flamers, but probably not worth losing Argent Shroud or Valorous Heart for rets.
Relic: F. You're not going to actually kill anybody with this.
The okay Warlord Trait is stuck with a really bad conviction, but this is an alternate option for your exorcist battery if the rest of your army is Argent Shroud or Bloody Rose, since a 6 for an advance roll for AS or a charge roll for BR would make your day.
Order of the Sacred Rose: D
Conviction: D+. Refunding Miracle dice isn't a worthwhile endeavour. In an MSU army, which you are, preventing morale loss isn't worth losing a potentially actually useful trait. Overwatching on 5+'s is only good if you can also overwatch with the right kind of weapon, otherwise it's also largely pointless.
Warlord: F+. If the warlord uses the miracle dice for herself, refund it. At least you got the miracle die you wasted back, but you don't get the opportunity to use it back.
Stratagem: C. Exploding bolters for one unit is a pass. Maybe if you got as many attacks from that one unit as aggressors... but you don't.
Relic. D. Okay get to hate a little bit on Daemons. It's still not even that strong against them, and is otherwise defunct. A single-faction hate relic's going rate is the Relic of Lost Cadia, this doesn't hold a torch.
All right, we're starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel. There's nothing here worth taking this order for. But we haven't reached the bottom yet, because...
Order of Our Martyred Lady: F
Conviction: F. It's defunct when you're winning, and requires your enemy to politely cooperate with you in order to actually be useful even then. Also, it requires you to bring large squads to even have any hope of getting any use out of, which you probably don't want to be doing too much anyway.
Warlord: D-. Congratulations, you're a Terminator!
Stratagem: D+. A character died, and now your whole army gets the benefit of the most common kind of character in your army who you almost have to have three of anyway. Woo.
Relic: D-. It's not like gun relics are usually best in class, and it's an Inferno Pistol on a foot unit that can't advance and shoot. At least it's S9.
Special Character: C. Rule34!Calgar got one thing going for her, and that's that she has a lieutenant aura which nobody else does. On the downside, you've got to have this Order to get it, so the whole package isn't worthwhile.
If your trait is only worthwhile when you're losing the game, it better actually turn the tide of battle. This doesn't, so it's like picking to not have a trait.
Moving on to the Warlord Traits and Relics:
As a whole, Relics can score more highly for just being passable than Warlord Traits because many relics can be handed out if they're worth a CP for the bearer to carry, but taking any given warlord trait means not having a different one.
Spoiler:
Righteous Rage: A. It's that time of month for Ms. Stabby. It's always that time of month. Give this to your Canoness with the Chainsaw of Bloody Dismemberment.
Indomitable Belief: A-. Now all your nearby people have a 5++. Warlord traits don't have to go to Canonii, so an Imagifier can have this and stand with the Bloody Rose Repentia [and Celestine] to make them 4++/5+++.
Beacon of Faith: B-. +1 Miracle Dice. Not worth having over the better options, but like, it could be worse.
Inspiring Orator: C-. Run less. It's not like you cared all that much in the first place.
Pure of Faith: F+. You get another 1d6 deny roll to not succeed with.
Executioner of Heretics: F+. Ask the night lords how much stacking -1 leadership works out for them, and then consider that this is on one model and has little to stack with.
Blade of Admonition: A-. Unfortunately went up in cost, but it does to 3 damage. Give it to a Canoness.
Burning Stick of No More Fun: B+. You must take this for Shield of Faith to actually do anything. While it's not guaranteed to work, it actually might now as opposed to always failing.
Bolt Pistol of Many Bullets: D. There aren't many good gun relics, what made you think this one was different.
Litanies of Faith: A-. Re-roll your Miracle dice to make them go farther. Probably worth the CP to have some backfield character hanging out with the Exorcists carry it.
Mantle of Orphelia: C+. You already have a 4++, and it can only go on Canonii. It would be good on a Imagifier, but alas.
Tryptech of Marcharius: D. Woo. a FNP. Not worth a CP Book of Loudness: B-. Wider Auras are nice, though most of the time 6" is wide enough.
Iron Corset of Saint Istalia: B-. Probably the best of the survivability relics. Still probably not worth the CP, since there are other relics you want.
On to Sacred Vows:
Each of these not only locks out having the other ones, but also locks out having the Loyal 32 or Thunderfire Guns or Knight Support or whatever soup of the day you feel like having. They have to be stronger than both each other, and stronger than potential allies, to be worthwhile.
Spoiler:
Hand of the Emperor: B+. Argent Shroud and Bloody Rose can both make good use of this. Probably the best of the lot.
The Passion: B-. Death to the False Everything would be nice for Bloody Rose. However, is it worth not being able to suppress overwatch with Thunderfire Guns or Pounding Barrage? Probably not you're killy enough as is.
Aegis of the Emperor: C+. If you also have the Burning Stick of No More Fun, these two will stack to be really good against some armies. Unfortunately, a great many armies just won't care about your great investment in stopping their fun.
Divine Guidance: D+. Everything either has good AP already and isn't likely to provoke this, or is going to see this as a drop in the bucket.
Light of the Emperor: C-. And We Shall Know No Fear. This is definitely not worth being able to take allies.
Spirit of the Martyr: C+. A 5+ chance to shoot when you die is questionable on the best of day, and definitely not worth not souping.
The long and short is, that none of these are worth not being able to bring other Imperial assets to help out. Even if you're mono, you'll not really be noticing the difference, but you should probably shoot for Aegis if the time calls for it, otherwise Hand.
For stratagems:
Spoiler:
Open the Reliquaries: A+ Now we can have many relics. There are at least 3 relics I have my eye on, and it makes all the relics more useful since the cost and opportunity cost of taking them is reduced.
Prophecy: C+ re-roll wounds of 1 if you have Zephyrim. Okay, maybe, if you have Zerphyrim and can buff them with an Imagifier, this will make them do some work. Maybe.
Furious Recital: F With such a name, I want to like the stratagem, but like doing leadership penalites as single-faction hate isn't really a worthwhile use of time or page space
Blazing Piety: F Weak single-faction hate.
Battle Rites: D- Change your sacred rite. You have to change it with a die roll. In general, when you want to change your rite, you want to change it too something, not away from something.
Moment of Grace: B+. Spend Miracle Dice to add +1 to rolls after making the roll. Decent, and probably better than the miracle dice themselves.
Final Redemption: C-. Repentia do mortals half the time when the die. That's not that good.
Martyr's Immolation: B-. Like many real fanatic sectarian groups, the Sisters of Battle have car bombs. There are good odds you will have an Immolator in your army, and only moderately worse odds that you will find a good time to do D3 mortal wounds to nearby enemy units. Funny and good when it happens, and a neat tool in your pocket, but not something to be building around.
Holy Trinity: B+. Wound support for your meltaguns. Decent, but only because a combi-flamer is much cheaper than a combi-melta [for a squad of 4 meltaguns, it's statistically about the same as arming the sergeant with a combi melta]
More Warlords: A+. There are more than one good warlord trait option in the book, so might as well take 2.
Reanimation: A+. Spend Miracle Dice, and you don't even have to roll to stand back up. Necrons wish they were so cool.
Holy Rage: A. Advance and Charge is good, but watch out for outrunning your support.
Faith and Fury: B-. Basically, your one shot is going to hit and wound. That said, it's one shot.
Martyred: B. Gain CP when your warlord dies. A booby prize for her death, but could be worse. Always use it when she dies if you don't reanimate her, because it's effectively free.
Venerated Saint: C. Imagifier gets 2 abilities. Odds are, the one providing +1S doesn't also need to be providing ignore AP-1.
Suffer not the Witch: C. If you could pick out psykers maybe this would do something. As is, use it to make Tyranids unhappy, otherwise, kind of ignore it.
Storm of Retribution: B-. This one is complicated, but is fundamentally 3 1CP stratagems in 1 2CP stratagem, that don't all take effect together. 2CP for a shooting stratagem should give you a second salvo, the going rate for +1 to hit is 1CP. The other functions are all also 1CP abilities, with the melta function being the closest to a 2CP ability.
Last Rites: B+. Autopass Morale if there's a Hosptialler there. Basically a cheaper but conditional version of the base 2CP one.
Devastating Refrain: B+. Your Exorcist may re-roll outputs, but use it before it fires. Awesome name.
Deadly Descent: C-. It doesn't last until the end of the turn, so it's only for the special salvo they get on arrival. In terms of firepower, it's roughly equivalent to starting them on the board, but they won't be able to get into short melta range in exchange for not being able to be shot off and having a tough charge.
Vessel of His Will: C-. Turn a CP into a Miracle Dice. The only two uses I can see for this are for fueling the resurrection or +1 to a die roll stratagems. CP are generally more useful
Test of Faith: C-. Turn CP into more Miracle Dice, but not on demand.
Proficient: B- Celestians get to re-roll hits and wounds. This doesn't make them good, probably.
Blessed Bolts: A- Okay for Dominions with Storm Bolters, and useful for killing Primaris. Niche, but good when it's in useful.
Purity of Faith: A+. Against most armies, this will break that one power they were counting on more effectively than the burning stick of no more fun and the sacred rite combined.
Judgement of the Faithful: A. Shoot when falling back. Good, especially considering the short range. Works on tanks.
Triggered: B-. Make Arcos killier. Not really super worthwhile, but maybe.
Desperate for Redemption: A. Fight Twice with Repentia or Mortifiers or Pengines. While most 3CP fight twice stratagems let you target any unit [because you wanted to use this on Chainsaw Canoness, right?], you were probably going to hit Repentia with it anyway.
Stratagems are overall good. There is unfortunately none to suppress overwatch, which would have been good for an Exorcist or something and would have made the Sacred Rites more appealing since you wouldn't have to source in Thunderfire Guns or Basilisks to be able to charge Centurions or Aggressors or a lot of things since Repentia are really fragile.
As for unit changes:
Spoiler:
Exorcist: C+. Unfortunately, you're going to have to live with it because it's the only thing that can reach out and touch someone, but going up all those points isn't worth the better launcher in the least.
Zephyrim: C. Maybe you can get something out of them with Bloody Rose. Are Banshees good, though?
Retributors: A-. Whatever weapon you chose, a solid option. Apparently, being angry is the final technological development in weapons stabilization, and I can run and hip-fire a heavy machinegun more accurately than tanks with laser-guided rockets, gyrostabilized gunlaying systems, and/or multispecturm optics as long as I'm very, very cross.
Motifiers: B. A Pentient Engine by another name acts like a Penitent Engine.
Dominions: B+. Not being able to scout transports makes them sad, but they were already made sad by the existence of the Space Marines.
Imagifier: A. These girls are must haves for your army for some subfactions and builds.
Hospitaller: B. The best medic in the game, but medics aren't that great.
Dialogus: C. is changing miracle dice worth a character? Not really.
Triumph of Saint Katherine: D. For a unit that not only shares my name, but proclaims my victory, I want to like this. That said, a T3 Sv3+ character with 18 wounds isn't going to be good in any world, and it's buffs aren't really that good.
All in all, I would grade our codex as a C+ or a B-. It's not good. C's get degrees, but don't get jobs [or degrees in Grad School]; and in line with that I think it'll be okay for ****ing around with low tier casual lists, but not going to get any call backs when it matters[/spoiler].
This was much more in line with my initial impressions. cynical enough, but not overtly.
The true test will be when the errata &/or faq come out.
BrianDavion wrote: I think a B ranked codex is a pretty solid place, One thing I'd like to see in a "design your own minor order" rules set in a future PA book
New marines as the sole inhabitants of the top rank and I don't get the impression that the sisters are going to pull a tau and upset the top spots, so I think a solid 'also ran' tier is in order.
Going to be a while until the new chapter approved points cuts and counter-play to the sisters settle down.
BrianDavion wrote: I think a B ranked codex is a pretty solid place, One thing I'd like to see in a "design your own minor order" rules set in a future PA book
New marines as the sole inhabitants of the top rank and I don't get the impression that the sisters are going to pull a tau and upset the top spots, so I think a solid 'also ran' tier is in order.
Going to be a while until the new chapter approved points cuts and counter-play to the sisters settle down.
I do think it's also worth noting that sisters (well at least valrous heart) have a way to counter some of the better aspects of Marines. people are already reporting that sisters can fight, and win against marines. So even if they're not A tier codex they'll proably have a place in local meta's
BrianDavion wrote: I think a B ranked codex is a pretty solid place, One thing I'd like to see in a "design your own minor order" rules set in a future PA book
New marines as the sole inhabitants of the top rank and I don't get the impression that the sisters are going to pull a tau and upset the top spots, so I think a solid 'also ran' tier is in order.
Going to be a while until the new chapter approved points cuts and counter-play to the sisters settle down.
I do think it's also worth noting that sisters (well at least valrous heart) have a way to counter some of the better aspects of Marines. people are already reporting that sisters can fight, and win against marines. So even if they're not A tier codex they'll proably have a place in local meta's
As a marine controll mechanism?
Beyond the fact that beeing able to hardcounter something is not particular great design. (Faction wide, not unit type wide, e.g. dedicated AT should deal with tanks just fine, but factions just hardcountering another faction is stupid and a reason why DttfE or the daemon stratagema against GK are just bad.)
Not Online!!! wrote: Beyond the fact that beeing able to hardcounter something is not particular great design. (Faction wide, not unit type wide, e.g. dedicated AT should deal with tanks just fine, but factions just hardcountering another faction is stupid and a reason why DttfE or the daemon stratagema against GK are just bad.)
Sister's don't beat Marines, we have a solid 'dont lose' game reinforced by situational abilities that can potentially make things much harder for certain games that we can change to something genericly-better-then-a-punch-in-the-face before the first turn. As someone here said, we're probably not getting to the top ITC tables, but our opponents probably aren't either.
I'm curious to see how we go, I think the Sisters skill curve got much higher for both players.
BrianDavion wrote: I think a B ranked codex is a pretty solid place, One thing I'd like to see in a "design your own minor order" rules set in a future PA book
New marines as the sole inhabitants of the top rank and I don't get the impression that the sisters are going to pull a tau and upset the top spots, so I think a solid 'also ran' tier is in order.
Going to be a while until the new chapter approved points cuts and counter-play to the sisters settle down.
I do think it's also worth noting that sisters (well at least valrous heart) have a way to counter some of the better aspects of Marines. people are already reporting that sisters can fight, and win against marines. So even if they're not A tier codex they'll proably have a place in local meta's
As a marine controll mechanism?
Beyond the fact that beeing able to hardcounter something is not particular great design. (Faction wide, not unit type wide, e.g. dedicated AT should deal with tanks just fine, but factions just hardcountering another faction is stupid and a reason why DttfE or the daemon stratagema against GK are just bad.)
sisters aren't a marine hard counter, they do however have some useful abilities. the army has a character that can provide a ignore -1 AP aura, (which if you choose the right chapter tactic can go to -2) which can counter tactical doctrine intercessors, they also have a bodyguard unit that's reasonably cheap (10 PPM) that can make sniping out characters harder. It's not going to be eneugh to single handedly win down game but it DOES provide for some counter play
I don't know about "beat marines" - but Valorous Heart is potentially going to mess with the huge amount of AP2 shooting certain Marine lists can put out.
AP2 versus regular Sisters down to a 5+ or 5++ - 7.5 wounds to kill 5.
AP2 versus 3+/6+++ - 18 wounds to kill 5.
Arguably this is very niche - but against those Iron Hands lists with bags of regular AP-1 Heavy Weapons (so AP-2) its a massive boost in defence. Consider say an Invictor shooting, which would normally be very likely wipe a 5 sister squad, and is now is unlikely to kill more than 2 models.
Unfortunately I think VH blobbed up this way is the boring way to play - and there are risks about being outranged etc, - while getting into combat or sprinting across the board is more fun and gives you more options. But if the meta demands it this may be the way to go.
Sacred Rose and Matyred Lady are clearly dependent on circumventing the limit on acts of faith per phase, so you then have to start investing in Simulacrums and I feel with SR, cherubs with the aim of getting a rolling cascade of miracle dice. Which feels kind of weak, as you are investing points to maybe benefit, on certain specific squads that may just get nuked, rather than guaranteeing a benefit for everyone. Its probably better than it seems with actual playing - but losing what you are getting from VH/BR/AS feels like a bad trade.
