Lists a unit that doesn't exist: Big Mek with Kustom Force Field
Deathwatch Troops Models Per Unit column is totally wrong (enjoy your 25 Biker units while you can).
Lists a points cost for the T'au Stimulant Injector despite the FAQ saying you can't take it anymore (this one I can handwave as for the 3 people still playing Indexhammer).
Genestealer Cult Neophyte Hybrids are 55 points per model (wat?).
And now for the pièce de résistance: Remember how in the SW Codex they messed up the unit sizes of Skyclaws and Swiftclaws, then fixed it, then had Chapter Approved 2018 revert it back to the original, wrong values, and then had to errata the errata? Well guess what, the exact same error from 2018 is in the 2019 book, proving that GW just copypasted the tables and didn't bother proofreading anything.
Are my standards unreasonable? Is it too much to expect that the big book of errata that GW have the nerve to charge people for shouldn't itself need errata?
Yes it's too much to expect the book to be absolutely FLAWLESS.
you count what 4 mistakes out of how many unit entries? two of which are just some legends based confusion, one of which is a classic spread sheet collum error (those mistakes are realllly easy to make) and one is just an "wtf" points valuer that may well be the intent. still let's assume they're all mistakes. this is hardly an ERROR RIDDLED book. error riddled would be a mistake every page or two. seriously, the fact that you call out 4 errors as "riddled" does indeed suggest you have unrealistic expectations.
The first one is likely for the future re-release of a Big Mek with KFF in plastic given that PA4 looks like something Ork related with Space Wolves. So that's hardly a valid complaint.
BrianDavion wrote: Yes it's too much to expect the book to be absolutely FLAWLESS.
you count what 4 mistakes out of how many unit entries? two of which are just some legends based confusion, one of which is a classic spread sheet collum error (those mistakes are realllly easy to make) and one is just an "wtf" points valuer that may well be the intent. still let's assume they're all mistakes. this is hardly an ERROR RIDDLED book. error riddled would be a mistake every page or two. seriously, the fact that you call out 4 errors as "riddled" does indeed suggest you have unrealistic expectations.
Its not 4 mistakes. The SW stuff has mistakes on many units. That were made multiple times now. Yes some of these mistakes are easy to make, but they are also damn easy to spot if any amount of proof reading is done.
BrianDavion wrote: Yes it's too much to expect the book to be absolutely FLAWLESS.
you count what 4 mistakes out of how many unit entries? two of which are just some legends based confusion, one of which is a classic spread sheet collum error (those mistakes are realllly easy to make) and one is just an "wtf" points valuer that may well be the intent. still let's assume they're all mistakes. this is hardly an ERROR RIDDLED book. error riddled would be a mistake every page or two. seriously, the fact that you call out 4 errors as "riddled" does indeed suggest you have unrealistic expectations.
Its not 4 mistakes. The SW stuff has mistakes on many units. That were made multiple times now. Yes some of these mistakes are easy to make, but they are also damn easy to spot if any amount of proof reading is done.
I can accept that they made the mistake with the SW book, and then fixed it, fair enough.
But that exact same mistake has now happened in THREE different books. I don't understand how you can even do that by accident.
+Drukhari vehicle wargear totally missing
+Ogryns points increase likely meant for Bullgryns
+Gallant increase in Knights section but not in Admech section
I have not bought the previous Chapter Approveds and will not buy this one. Obvious lack of basic proofreading aside, point updates should be free and part of regular errata/faq updates to reflect the current meta, not a meta that existed 6+ months ago.
BrianDavion wrote: Yes it's too much to expect the book to be absolutely FLAWLESS.
you count what 4 mistakes out of how many unit entries? two of which are just some legends based confusion, one of which is a classic spread sheet collum error (those mistakes are realllly easy to make) and one is just an "wtf" points valuer that may well be the intent. still let's assume they're all mistakes. this is hardly an ERROR RIDDLED book. error riddled would be a mistake every page or two. seriously, the fact that you call out 4 errors as "riddled" does indeed suggest you have unrealistic expectations.
Its not 4 mistakes. The SW stuff has mistakes on many units. That were made multiple times now. Yes some of these mistakes are easy to make, but they are also damn easy to spot if any amount of proof reading is done.
I can accept that they made the mistake with the SW book, and then fixed it, fair enough.
But that exact same mistake has now happened in FOUR different books. I don't understand how you can even do that by accident.
I suspect the way they did it was they told the office interns to copy paste the spread sheets with point values over en masse, these interns where just low level flunkies doing a job (they may not eve have played 40k. we're talking likely folks from the office not their rules team) so the interns did this. the dev team then focused on the points values they wanted to actually CHANGE, thus stuff fell through the cracks.
this is just a guess but it makes sense, stuff C&Ped wasn't checked. I've seen errors like this made in officers too, the only reason those are caught is because it's vital for the collums to add up.
The errors are terrible in all honesty, but the Deathwatch one will make zero difference. You can't take all those extra models since the entry in the codex is very specific on what you can take. The entry in CA does not change this.
I honestly don't get how they keep screwing things up. I guess none of the increased staff includes editors yet. One day, we can hope and dream that they learn this fine art form and learn to proof read, make a list, check it twice, all of that.
Edit: I mean I expect them to not play test but the least they can do is write the books correctly the first time. It's frankly quite tragic GW has made vast erratas and erratas on erratas common place, so much so people defend them for it because it's their norm and we expect such high levels of failure from this fine company.
Another annoying instance of GW failing to copy/paste correctly, the recent Blood Bowl Coach’s Handbook was a great idea; a smaller sized manual with all of the updated rules, skills, and teams. Unfortunately it was riddled with errors that a simple proofreading by most people familiar with the game would have caught. Stats that had been the same for years were incorrectly changed and a faq/errata was issued soon after release. With the money GW is raking in these days, why they can’t hire basic proofreaders baffles and infuriates me.
Because you HAVE to have these books to play the game. It could be in crayon written by 3rd graders and people would still buy it. GW will never care about the quality of their books as long as they are required to play the game. There's no incentive and books are their highest money maker.
I think its proof that their "logbook" 16th Century model of distributing books of numbers is not working.
It's easy to guess how these mistakes were made - they simply cannot keep on top of their own ridiculous model. They've obviously not gone back and fixed the proofs of 2018 when they were erratad. When 2019 was released they copy and pasted the 2018 figures **without putting their own errata on**.
They expect customers to follow this system when they themselves are now confused by it.
Yeah part of the problem is GW have set the bar soooo so low in term of book/rules quality, this book can be considered a roaring success....
I think they have several teams working on different aspects of the books/rules who don't communicate to each other and whoever is in charge over all just doesn't care about a few complaints. As long as the sales figures look good at the management meeting...
The only thing that would get any kind of change is:
1. Boycot of future rules releases/products - unlikely as people are too lazy/care enough to get organised
2. A mass refund campaign where everyone asks for a refund as the book is riddled with mistakes and as such is not fit for purpose of being a "patch" - Again same problem as the first point.
3. Social media/email complaints - Everyone writes their complains and writes GW angry emails (maybe requesting refunds)
Other than that, its a case of really enjoying the turd sandwich you are being served and accepting it is what it is and imagine the turd sandwich is a juicy meatball marinara instead..
Argive wrote: Yeah part of the problem is GW have set the bar soooo so low in term of book/rules quality, this book can be considered a roaring success....
I think they have several teams working on different aspects of the books/rules who don't communicate to each other and whoever is in charge over all just doesn't care about a few complaints. As long as the sales figures look good at the management meeting...
The only thing that would get any kind of change is:
1. Boycot of future rules releases/products - unlikely as people are too lazy/care enough to get organised
2. A mass refund campaign where everyone asks for a refund as the book is riddled with mistakes and as such is not fit for purpose of being a "patch" - Again same problem as the first point.
3. Social media/email complaints - Everyone writes their complains and writes GW angry emails (maybe requesting refunds)
Other than that, its a case of really enjoying the turd sandwich you are being served and accepting it is what it is and imagine the turd sandwich is a juicy meatball marinara instead..
Nothing will make them change when they have a slew of devoted defenders who feel that this very large company should be held to such a low standard that we should except error after error in every single release and erratas for erratas. Coupled with, vague and poorly written rules that show despite the decades of the player base being unable to read their minds intent and more than willing to RAW every cheese loop hole, they just can't be bothered to tighten it up some.
People should eventually learn but on both of these counts they have shown little to no real progress and in some areas actually gotten worse.
he said actions that can produce change, talking about it on Dakka isn't going to effect change.
Pretty much. Realistically, GW couldn't care less what get's posted on these boards. This forum represents such a minor fraction of the player base that for every disgruntled hobbyist here there is probably a thousand fans cheering the success.
Argive wrote: Yeah part of the problem is GW have set the bar soooo so low in term of book/rules quality, this book can be considered a roaring success....
I think they have several teams working on different aspects of the books/rules who don't communicate to each other and whoever is in charge over all just doesn't care about a few complaints. As long as the sales figures look good at the management meeting...
The only thing that would get any kind of change is:
1. Boycot of future rules releases/products - unlikely as people are too lazy/care enough to get organised
2. A mass refund campaign where everyone asks for a refund as the book is riddled with mistakes and as such is not fit for purpose of being a "patch" - Again same problem as the first point.
3. Social media/email complaints - Everyone writes their complains and writes GW angry emails (maybe requesting refunds)
Other than that, its a case of really enjoying the turd sandwich you are being served and accepting it is what it is and imagine the turd sandwich is a juicy meatball marinara instead..
I'm already doing #1 with all their prints products. At this point with the errors and imbalanced rules they don't DESERVE money for it. I highly recommend doing the same. Apparently my emails they ignore can only do so much. Right?
I have no idea how big the portion of the fanbase is that is disgruntled or if its a vocal minority or if its just dakka community.
I suppose the only real way of knowing is do organise a corss forum social media action and encourage people to retrun their books/ask for refunds & complaints. And then maybe enough people would do it if it is indeed such a big problem. This could or could not make a difference. I think its likely to make a bigger impact if its done over repeated publications.
Wether its a vocal minority or not is irrelevent. I think that voting with your wallet works best when dealing with a company along with organised boycott and social media exposure.
These could or could not work. Nobody knows really..
I for example am too lazy to write an angry email, complain and go through with a threat of a refund enquiry.. I know its technicaly the right thing to do but I honestly cant be bothered and will just eat the turd sandwich. I wasnt happy with FW specters they sent me so I did something about that.
Guess you could call it general apathy. If I saw a concerted effort being put in organising a movement I'd probably get behind it but for me perosnally, and my faction the missions and the points are acurate. So to be honest Im happy keeping the book despite how bad it may or may not be.
I am not happy about legends thing but thats another issue entirely.
I was having a look through the Spearhead missions and the mission-specific stratagems available to each faction and noticed that there’s no Ork stratagem - not a mistake as such but quite a glaring omission! Very disappointing.
Well GW removes basically all the negativity on their offical stuff for starters.
Also your apathy is what lets them continue to get away with garbage. Is it THAT hard to construct am email? No it isn't. I'm fact it's probably a skill you'd have perfected in the work place.
Just make sure you write an email that is constructive.
"Dear GW, I am writing to you to express my dissappointment in product X, this product had notable errors such as *list examples of the errors* this is, given your current pricing, an unacceptable level of quality and as such I have returned the product and will refrain from doing busniess with you until there is an improvement in quality control to my sastifaction"
Is a good example of a email. Giving specific examples of the issues is important.
"feth YOU GW! YOUR PRODUCTS SUCK! YOUR STUFF SUCKS! I'M GOING TO HUNT YOU DOWN AND KILL YOU FOR RUINING THE HOBBY YOU GREEDY PEICES OF gak" is NOT a good email. (assuming they don't take the threat seriously and pass your name onto the police they'll simply throw the email in the trash likely not even fully read)
Also, the Instigator Bolt Carbine points cost is missing from both Blood Angels and Dark Angels (same omission in the Blood of Baal points list for BA). It's in the Space Marine points list in CA, but if you only bought Blood of Baal you have a weapon you can take without any points cost.
I can't believe GW hasn't invested in some sort of document management system by now. It's pretty obvious they are making changes on the fly without a proper system in place for tracking and managing them, hence the repetition of old errors when they use source files that are themselves out of date. I think the whole design studio needs to be introduced to the concept of Golden Copy.
BrianDavion wrote: Just make sure you write an email that is constructive.
"Dear GW, I am writing to you to express my dissappointment in product X, this product had notable errors such as *list examples of the errors* this is, given your current pricing, an unacceptable level of quality and as such I have returned the product and will refrain from doing busniess with you until there is an improvement in quality control to my sastifaction"
Is a good example of a email. Giving specific examples of the issues is important.
"feth YOU GW! YOUR PRODUCTS SUCK! YOUR STUFF SUCKS! I'M GOING TO HUNT YOU DOWN AND KILL YOU FOR RUINING THE HOBBY YOU GREEDY PEICES OF gak" is NOT a good email. (assuming they don't take the threat seriously and pass your name onto the police they'll simply throw the email in the trash likely not even fully read)
Actually polite and constrictive get's ignored just as much.
infact, when i made them aware of multiple rules issues since the start of 8th in regards to R&H that still didn't get a FAQ i got ignored until i demanded a refund for the book, which then promptly got an answer.
TL: DR GW ignores most things that don't get many mentions.
Slipspace wrote: Also, the Instigator Bolt Carbine points cost is missing from both Blood Angels and Dark Angels (same omission in the Blood of Baal points list for BA). It's in the Space Marine points list in CA, but if you only bought Blood of Baal you have a weapon you can take without any points cost.
I can't believe GW hasn't invested in some sort of document management system by now. It's pretty obvious they are making changes on the fly without a proper system in place for tracking and managing them, hence the repetition of old errors when they use source files that are themselves out of date. I think the whole design studio needs to be introduced to the concept of Golden Copy.
That won't happen until they hire an actual editor.
And no editor is going to want that job as trying to drag the GW writing department into an effective organisational structure with proper audit trails of their work, approval processes, technical editing etc. would be a nightmare.
BrianDavion wrote: Just make sure you write an email that is constructive.
"Dear GW, I am writing to you to express my dissappointment in product X, this product had notable errors such as *list examples of the errors* this is, given your current pricing, an unacceptable level of quality and as such I have returned the product and will refrain from doing busniess with you until there is an improvement in quality control to my sastifaction"
Is a good example of a email. Giving specific examples of the issues is important.
"feth YOU GW! YOUR PRODUCTS SUCK! YOUR STUFF SUCKS! I'M GOING TO HUNT YOU DOWN AND KILL YOU FOR RUINING THE HOBBY YOU GREEDY PEICES OF gak" is NOT a good email. (assuming they don't take the threat seriously and pass your name onto the police they'll simply throw the email in the trash likely not even fully read)
Actually polite and constrictive get's ignored just as much.
infact, when i made them aware of multiple rules issues since the start of 8th in regards to R&H that still didn't get a FAQ i got ignored until i demanded a refund for the book, which then promptly got an answer.
TL: DR GW ignores most things that don't get many mentions.
never said they will listen, just they're more likely to listen.
No, your standards are not even if you seem to nitpick over it. I repeatedly am disgusted at the number of people who say proofreading is no big deal. You're fething right I expect the book to be flawless for PROOFING ERRORS. What else should you expect in a product you pay for? Why the feth are people constantly making excuses why a multi-million dollar international company selling what they peddle as a quality product can't get the absolute basics that anyone publishing should be able to do? ANYONE publishing any sort of book ought to be able to proofread it properly. Not do a lazy copy+paste job and shove it out the door for the ignorant plebs to eat up.
Seriously. Why do people keep giving GW a pass on this gak?
SlaveToDorkness wrote: Because you HAVE to have these books to play the game. It could be in crayon written by 3rd graders and people would still buy it. GW will never care about the quality of their books as long as they are required to play the game. There's no incentive and books are their highest money maker.
citation needed on it being their biggest money maker.
as for needed I have many friend playing the tournament scenes who do not own anything other than the main rulebook. with things like battlescribe and ... other sources that you should probably have a VPN to use.. they have all of the books and rules but often have not purchased them.
Gareth_Evans wrote: I think its proof that their "logbook" 16th Century model of distributing books of numbers is not working.
It's easy to guess how these mistakes were made - they simply cannot keep on top of their own ridiculous model. They've obviously not gone back and fixed the proofs of 2018 when they were erratad. When 2019 was released they copy and pasted the 2018 figures **without putting their own errata on**.
They expect customers to follow this system when they themselves are now confused by it.
I mean, they show this all the time that they don't understand their own rules or forget rules they've written/changed. So their entire model is a complete joke that doesn't work, yet they slavishly follow it and the result is every single book has glaring errors that need to be FAQ'd when they shouldn't even be there. Sure, having faster FAQs is a good thing. But not for gak that you should catch before the book goes to print!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well GW removes basically all the negativity on their offical stuff for starters.
Also your apathy is what lets them continue to get away with garbage. Is it THAT hard to construct am email? No it isn't. I'm fact it's probably a skill you'd have perfected in the work place.
Yeah: work. I only do work if im getting paid for it.
And no I dont think its going to achieve anything as im not actually willing to go through with a refund. An empty threat is worthless..
Voicing your displeasure that the books constantly have proofing errors that need to be corrected is still the type of feedback they should get.
You may only do work if you're getting paid for it, but you're paying good money for a book that has the level of proofreading that even an entry-level employee would be able to spot going to print without second care.
So, another book, another mocking filled post by BCB
Jokes aside, yeah some errors, will need fixing. Par for the course, I do not have the spare energy to get worked up over this as I prefer to use my spare hobby time actually enjoying the game best I can.
GW Need to do better for sure, but BCB maybe do the opposite to GW and instead of making tons of separate threads with your issues, collapse them all into one massive megathread
bullyboy wrote: The errors are terrible in all honesty, but the Deathwatch one will make zero difference. You can't take all those extra models since the entry in the codex is very specific on what you can take. The entry in CA does not change this.
It's far more than the Veteran entry thats fethed in CA2019. There's numbers from CA2017, CA2018, and presumably new values for CA2019 mixed in across the entire Deathwatch series, which makes it next to impossible to know what is intended and what is an error. There's no confidence in any list that I can put together for Deathwatch until we get an FAQ confirmation on just what the feth is going on with that entire section.
For once BCB has a point. Mistakes happen, that is understandable. However, repeating the same mistake yet again after it has already been errated twice is pretty damn sad.
I also do not think your standards are unrealistic, and I'm generally a fairly big supporter of GW. Re-making an error that has already been fixed, remade and fixed again? That's pretty egregious.
What I will say, however, is that since 1987, GW has never, ever experimented with output of this magnitude. I think sometimes people underestimate just how much stuff GW produces.
24 dexes in 2.5 years, plus 5 campaign books and ongoing support for Blackstone, Kill Team, Aeronautica, Titan Legions, Apocalypse...
They've also taken Necromunda further than it's ever gone before. And that's just for their future games.
On the fantasy front, they've been every bit as prolific, given Warcy, Beastgrave, and whole new armies, like the deep kin and sky dwarves.
So yeah, I think people have a valid reason to complain and the right to do so- I wish GW did a better job on the editing front. But I also think people need to keep in mind the sheer scope of the company's operations.
Would I prefer FAQless codices? Absolutely. If it came at the expense of getting one every 3 months? Not so much. If we'd had to wait 3 months for each of the 24, we wouldn't have what we've got now for another three years!
Crimson wrote: However, repeating the same mistake yet again after it has already been errated twice is pretty damn sad.
I generally give GW a ton of slack. It's a big company run by very few people and deadlines need to be met. Not everyone plays every army. But even I am scratching my head at this one.
It's like the previous Erratas don't matter and the "master file" or whatever they have, never gets these errors fixed. They clearly make changes to it, otherwise CA would just be missions. So why the same error that has occurred twice already has occurred again is beyond even my optimistic attitude.
That said, the only faction error that affects me is the DW models per unit error and that one is pretty obvious to correct. The Codex is still the authority on how many models a unit can contain.
PenitentJake wrote: I also do not think your standards are unrealistic, and I'm generally a fairly big supporter of GW. Re-making an error that has already been fixed, remade and fixed again? That's pretty egregious.
What I will say, however, is that since 1987, GW has never, ever experimented with output of this magnitude. I think sometimes people underestimate just how much stuff GW produces.
24 dexes in 2.5 years, plus 5 campaign books and ongoing support for Blackstone, Kill Team, Aeronautica, Titan Legions, Apocalypse...
They've also taken Necromunda further than it's ever gone before. And that's just for their future games.
On the fantasy front, they've been every bit as prolific, given Warcy, Beastgrave, and whole new armies, like the deep kin and sky dwarves.
So yeah, I think people have a valid reason to complain and the right to do so- I wish GW did a better job on the editing front. But I also think people need to keep in mind the sheer scope of the company's operations.
Would I prefer FAQless codices? Absolutely. If it came at the expense of getting one every 3 months? Not so much. If we'd had to wait 3 months for each of the 24, we wouldn't have what we've got now for another three years!
While that may explain why these errors occur, I don't think the fact that GW is putting out more products (while charging the same amount they always have) justifies those mistakes to the consumer. If it were a ten dollar add-on I'd be more forgiving, but when this is an expensive hardbound book that is meant to be the definitive source of points going forward, it's just sloppy.
BCB may be... somewhat overbearing, but in this case the criticism is wholly warranted. Personally, I'm just not going to buy CA19.
NinthMusketeer wrote: If they asked for a volunteer to sign an NDA and proofread their book releases for free they would get thousands of applicants.
I know I'd go through the (not all that significant) effort just for the personal benefit of having a book without a bunch of errors in it.
Why bother, people will buy it anyway. There is literally no reason to put in effort when it will just sell in any case.
Nevermind asking how well it would sell if it was "done right," <insert WeDon'tDoThatHere.jpg>. The answer probably isn't really all that well, honestly, so it's not in their interest to really try.
NinthMusketeer wrote: If they asked for a volunteer to sign an NDA and proofread their book releases for free they would get thousands of applicants.
I know I'd go through the (not all that significant) effort just for the personal benefit of having a book without a bunch of errors in it.
Why bother, people will buy it anyway. There is literally no reason to put in effort when it will just sell in any case.
Nevermind asking how well it would sell if it was "done right," <insert WeDon'tDoThatHere.jpg>. The answer probably isn't really all that well, honestly, so it's not in their interest to really try.
I think that's the biggest problem. People buy it regardless. So why would they bother? It's like writing good rules.. if you don't have to put in the effort, why would you?
Clearly enough people don't care about quality books since they still sell like hotcakes.
Wayniac wrote: I think that's the biggest problem. People buy it regardless. So why would they bother? It's like writing good rules.. if you don't have to put in the effort, why would you?
Clearly enough people don't care about quality books since they still sell like hotcakes.
Nope, you can see it here, as long as the book contains even one "correct" rule, people will still shill out for it. And even defend it too.
Until the day where people realize the only way the rules get better is if people stop paying money for horrible rules, the quality will decline more and more. There is pretty much zero impetus to make "good" rules if whatever rules sell pretty much just as well. They've realized this to such a degree that they push out more and more books, which are superseded and interceded by more and more books, then WD articles then collected in books, only to then need another book to correct the errors and balance in those, which then needs FAQs to correct the errors and balance of that collected book of corrections, which then sets you up to buy the next book.
Imagine trying to sell that to anyone not entrenched in this GW "logic."
PenitentJake wrote: I also do not think your standards are unrealistic, and I'm generally a fairly big supporter of GW. Re-making an error that has already been fixed, remade and fixed again? That's pretty egregious.
What I will say, however, is that since 1987, GW has never, ever experimented with output of this magnitude. I think sometimes people underestimate just how much stuff GW produces.
24 dexes in 2.5 years, plus 5 campaign books and ongoing support for Blackstone, Kill Team, Aeronautica, Titan Legions, Apocalypse...
They've also taken Necromunda further than it's ever gone before. And that's just for their future games.
On the fantasy front, they've been every bit as prolific, given Warcy, Beastgrave, and whole new armies, like the deep kin and sky dwarves.
So yeah, I think people have a valid reason to complain and the right to do so- I wish GW did a better job on the editing front. But I also think people need to keep in mind the sheer scope of the company's operations.
Would I prefer FAQless codices? Absolutely. If it came at the expense of getting one every 3 months? Not so much. If we'd had to wait 3 months for each of the 24, we wouldn't have what we've got now for another three years!
All the stuff you've just described there is simply making excuses for a multi-million dollar company who are under no obligation to churn out material as quickly as they do - it's an entirely self-inflicted problem if indeed the release schedule is the issue. They're also not short of a bit of cash and are easily capable of hiring enough people to ramp up production. the problems they have seem to be around company culture and attitude. There's a lack of professionalism and attention to detail in a lot of their publications and rules writing you just don't get from other companies.
It's a joke to keep spending money on their low effort, low quality book products This is more and more evidence that an online version of all this stuff would be so superior to the hard copy, but with how many people out there still buy into this crap it's no surprise they don't change their marketing practices.
Its growing pains and mismanagement. The number of documents they have to juggle is absurd. The factors influencing what they have to account for are constantly shifting.
Without considerably strong leadership that owns the process you're going to get these continuous mistakes. That kind of leadership can be hard to come by and issues exacerbated by small staff numbers.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: It's a joke to keep spending money on their low effort, low quality book products This is more and more evidence that an online version of all this stuff would be so superior to the hard copy, but with how many people out there still buy into this crap it's no surprise they don't change their marketing practices.
I haven't bought a single CA. Ofc I am glad to bumb off what everyone else does but most of this information is free on the internet or via battle-scribe if you can wait just 1 week. I would however buy a subscription to a online rules source if it was reasonable.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NinthMusketeer wrote: If they asked for a volunteer to sign an NDA and proofread their book releases for free they would get thousands of applicants.
I know I'd go through the (not all that significant) effort just for the personal benefit of having a book without a bunch of errors in it.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: My question now is: is it acceptable to use these obvious mistakes? Or is that TFG material?
If you dont think me and the LGS yahoos arent going to take the opportunity to experience the hilarity that is a 2000 point Deathwatch squad, you sorely underestimate our level of stupidity.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: It's a joke to keep spending money on their low effort, low quality book products This is more and more evidence that an online version of all this stuff would be so superior to the hard copy, but with how many people out there still buy into this crap it's no surprise they don't change their marketing practices.
I haven't bought a single CA. Ofc I am glad to bumb off what everyone else does but most of this information is free on the internet or via battle-scribe if you can wait just 1 week. I would however buy a subscription to a online rules source if it was reasonable.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NinthMusketeer wrote: If they asked for a volunteer to sign an NDA and proofread their book releases for free they would get thousands of applicants.
I know I'd go through the (not all that significant) effort just for the personal benefit of having a book without a bunch of errors in it.
It is a great point you are making.
I 100% am with you on this one. Considering that we are seeing a surge in subscription based services from a variety of entertainment providers I think the market is telling the story that yes this kind of thing works. I think there are a lot of whales out there who just buy everything and overshadow what I think is the more moderate consumer majority who don't buy a lot of books. I also think we are going to see more and more people who don't buy books forcing GW to adapt their model and I look forward to that happening. What we have now is joke IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: My question now is: is it acceptable to use these obvious mistakes? Or is that TFG material?
In a joking manner for a silly game sure that's fine just have fun and laugh. In a more serious environment or pick up game with a stranger I think it's a bad idea and will get you funny looks.
bullyboy wrote: The errors are terrible in all honesty, but the Deathwatch one will make zero difference. You can't take all those extra models since the entry in the codex is very specific on what you can take. The entry in CA does not change this.
It's far more than the Veteran entry thats fethed in CA2019. There's numbers from CA2017, CA2018, and presumably new values for CA2019 mixed in across the entire Deathwatch series, which makes it next to impossible to know what is intended and what is an error. There's no confidence in any list that I can put together for Deathwatch until we get an FAQ confirmation on just what the feth is going on with that entire section.
I don't think you and I are looking at the same book. The points for Deathwatch are very clear. The unit numbers are messed up, but that is absolutely pointless because the unit entry in the codex tells you exactly what you can add, replace etc. It's really not an issue at all.
You may only do work if you're getting paid for it, but you're paying good money for a book that has the level of proofreading that even an entry-level employee would be able to spot going to print without second care.
For the price I'm currently paying them for most of their books I can't really complain about the quality.... You know, you get what you pay for & all.
Smirrors wrote: You guys can keep on complaining, I am just going to play with toy soldiers and roll some dice
whoa, did you just get off the grox feed truck? you know you're on dakka and posting in a BCB thread right?
Your way too logical to be posting such sane, rational thoughts about a game.
Well the issue is some people tend to care that they are being peddled mistake ridden junk, others just don't care. That is fine for either side I suppose, but I'd consider it pretty dumb to not care the company charges you for points " balance " changes and they screw things up, when it should be free for that anyways.
I'm not yet beaten down by the world enough I suppose to just take it and be thankful everything isn't wrong, at least not yet.
As for those who think a subscription service would in any way fix this or even be in any way be a reasonable cost, that is a laugh. They'd charge you through the nose, probably give even less effort and still make the same repeated errors that would take just as long for them to get around fixing if they ever deem worthy to.
It isn't that anyone just sits there and rages at GW, but people should hold this company to a higher standard. If they can't handle the speed, slow it down, if their leadership is bad, slow it down until they get someone who can direct the process better. There shouldn't be acceptable levels of repeated errors, let alone the amount they pump out now.
For me, it's way more logical to care if I'm being ripped off, than to just smile and say " Oh well...just games ! " then slip them my money and accept my shame.
I don't like pirating the rules, as I like to get the books and models through my FLGS where I grew the game back in 4th edition on, I support where I play and love, so getting the books from the high seas isn't something I want to do but with the effort they put forth that is about all the books end up being worth and I can't blame those who do that even if I won't.
BrianDavion wrote: Yes it's too much to expect the book to be absolutely FLAWLESS.
you count what 4 mistakes out of how many unit entries? two of which are just some legends based confusion, one of which is a classic spread sheet collum error (those mistakes are realllly easy to make) and one is just an "wtf" points valuer that may well be the intent. still let's assume they're all mistakes. this is hardly an ERROR RIDDLED book. error riddled would be a mistake every page or two. seriously, the fact that you call out 4 errors as "riddled" does indeed suggest you have unrealistic expectations.
Heaven forbid a company making 'record profits' should be expected to put out a thoroughly proof read product by paying for a couple of editors.
But then again GW's always got plenty of white knights who would defend the pages being bound together by faeces and they'd not lack for people going "wow so much salt over a bit of poop, grow up whiners "
BrianDavion wrote: Yes it's too much to expect the book to be absolutely FLAWLESS.
you count what 4 mistakes out of how many unit entries? two of which are just some legends based confusion, one of which is a classic spread sheet collum error (those mistakes are realllly easy to make) and one is just an "wtf" points valuer that may well be the intent. still let's assume they're all mistakes. this is hardly an ERROR RIDDLED book. error riddled would be a mistake every page or two. seriously, the fact that you call out 4 errors as "riddled" does indeed suggest you have unrealistic expectations.
Heaven forbid a company making 'record profits' should be expected to put out a thoroughly proof read product by paying for a couple of editors.
But then again GW's always got plenty of white knights who would defend the pages being bound together by faeces and they'd not lack for people going "wow so much salt over a bit of poop, grow up whiners "
I'm not sure I would consider this white knight, but yeah the level of "It's not worth complaining" or "I'm just gonna play while you whine" is a bit disheartening. This is a company making record (and largely undeserved) profits. You're telling me you're okay accepting shoddy work that anywhere else would get someone fired for not doing their job acceptable? I don't get what it is about GW that gets people to take the abuse and keep coming back for more while saying it's no big deal. Any other company would get raked over the coals for this. If any other wargaming company tried to peddle this gak they would be laughed at. Only GW has people still salivating to buy a product that clearly has no thought or care put into it and, to top it all off, are thankful for getting the opportunity to buy such a piece of gak.
This is why 8th edition is such a dumpster fire, and why GW has no reason to improve. Their fans still eat up everything they put out and give them amazing profits for garbage. What reason do they have to change? This community lost its chance to get real change when they bought hook line and sinker into the bullgak GW peddled at the start of 8th edition and it's all but turned out to be smoke and mirrors and politician's promises. Yet the masses still eat it up like candy.
Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.
bullyboy wrote: Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.
Rules overall are still a bloated mess (the core is great, its everything else heaped on top) and still no care for balance. Doesn't matter how responsive GW is if they continually miss the point. That's the main reason. Half of what they promised in the previews either turned out to be totally false or were said in such a vague political way that it could be spun that they technically didn't lie.
bullyboy wrote: Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.
have we allready forgotten ynnari and Castelan meta?
bullyboy wrote: Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.
have we allready forgotten ynnari and Castelan meta?
Have we already forgotten how there's always a meta where something is strong that competitive players need to be mindful of when constructing lists and playing the game, because that's the nature of games? Just because there are metas where some stuff is really strong doesn't mean it's worse than other editions where there were also metas where some stuff was really strong. So, with those two things being equal, we can still say that 8th has better balance than many previous editions because so much more stuff is capable of doing things and interacting with the game than before. Even the current Marine Meta isn't the be-all-end-all; T'au have been taking a lot of top spots in big tourneys.
BrianDavion wrote: Yes it's too much to expect the book to be absolutely FLAWLESS.
you count what 4 mistakes out of how many unit entries? two of which are just some legends based confusion, one of which is a classic spread sheet collum error (those mistakes are realllly easy to make) and one is just an "wtf" points valuer that may well be the intent. still let's assume they're all mistakes. this is hardly an ERROR RIDDLED book. error riddled would be a mistake every page or two. seriously, the fact that you call out 4 errors as "riddled" does indeed suggest you have unrealistic expectations.
Heaven forbid a company making 'record profits' should be expected to put out a thoroughly proof read product by paying for a couple of editors.
But then again GW's always got plenty of white knights who would defend the pages being bound together by faeces and they'd not lack for people going "wow so much salt over a bit of poop, grow up whiners "
I'm not sure I would consider this white knight, but yeah the level of "It's not worth complaining" or "I'm just gonna play while you whine" is a bit disheartening. This is a company making record (and largely undeserved) profits. You're telling me you're okay accepting shoddy work that anywhere else would get someone fired for not doing their job acceptable? I don't get what it is about GW that gets people to take the abuse and keep coming back for more while saying it's no big deal. Any other company would get raked over the coals for this. If any other wargaming company tried to peddle this gak they would be laughed at. Only GW has people still salivating to buy a product that clearly has no thought or care put into it and, to top it all off, are thankful for getting the opportunity to buy such a piece of gak.
This is why 8th edition is such a dumpster fire, and why GW has no reason to improve. Their fans still eat up everything they put out and give them amazing profits for garbage. What reason do they have to change? This community lost its chance to get real change when they bought hook line and sinker into the bullgak GW peddled at the start of 8th edition and it's all but turned out to be smoke and mirrors and politician's promises. Yet the masses still eat it up like candy.
It's typical Dakka hyperbole. Rather than address arguments with legitimate counter-points, its easier to just strawman their arguments. Just pretend they said something productive like: "GW is radically reorganizing and still adjusting to the new release schedule and the huge number of copy+paste style errors is a direct symptom of that. In theory it should get better over time, but companies and their methods sadly don't change nearly as fast as we'd wish them to. Remember, simply separating point costs from the rest of CA was already a positive step in the right direction and yearly balance patches (broken and all) are still better than before."
That being said, some of the copy+paste issues are atrocious. Looking over the Tau portions, I noticed a few errors. The shield generator has 3 different costs: Y'Vahra(old unchanged big suit cost), Stormsurge(new big suit cost), and everything else. The heavy burst cannon has two costs, Codex and FW. Which is hilarious because the HBC doesn't even exist in the FW index anymore since they lazy fixed it by changing the name to "Swiftstrike Burst Cannon" and "Twin Swiftstrike Burst Cannon" so it wouldn't share the same profile. Btw, both of the new names are completely missing from the weapons list. The Ion Cannon has 2 costs as well so Tigersharks pay 20pts more per cannon. Oh and stimulant injectors which were changed into a strategem when the codex dropped are still listed with a point cost in the FW point changes. Oddly enough, the Fusion Blaster uses the same cost for both Codex and FW which was changed in CA 2019.
Edit: Fixed some grammar for clarity
SlaveToDorkness wrote: Because you HAVE to have these books to play the game. It could be in crayon written by 3rd graders and people would still buy it. GW will never care about the quality of their books as long as they are required to play the game. There's no incentive and books are their highest money maker.
Not really, I didn't buy this one or any of the others, I play with the points listed in my codex and haven't had any troubles with that.
I would guess it matters in the competitive scene but, feth that.
I find it amusing that people pay for this stuff in 2019. This used to be free back in the day but now they expect the customer to pay money for a book that fixes their mistakes? No other gaming company charges for FAQs or rule tweaks. Hell some evdn hand out free rule books when editions change.
I would deffintly be in the pissed off catagory had I spent money on a product that should have been free only to find a load of mistakes.
Daston wrote: I find it amusing that people pay for this stuff in 2019. This used to be free back in the day but now they expect the customer to pay money for a book that fixes their mistakes? No other gaming company charges for FAQs or rule tweaks. Hell some evdn hand out free rule books when editions change.
I would deffintly be in the pissed off catagory had I spent money on a product that should have been free only to find a load of mistakes.
You pay a book that fixes their mistakes, only to introduce new ones or undo ones that have been done until they realize and issue an errata for the book that's meant to be the errata while yes, them issuing FAQs faster and such is a good thing, the fact that every single fething book has needed an errata to fix grammar or missing things is beyond ridiculous. Seriously. There has not been one single book GW has released that didn't have errors or missing entries or wrong entries that needed to be fixed in the FAQ later on. Not a single one! So the FAQ is taken up by fixing crap that shouldn't have made it to print, rather than addressing the ambiguities or interactoins.
But yeah only GW can get away with this, for some reason. Any other company multiple times of this crap would cause major issues. But no, business as usual for GW and their fans.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: Because you HAVE to have these books to play the game. It could be in crayon written by 3rd graders and people would still buy it. GW will never care about the quality of their books as long as they are required to play the game. There's no incentive and books are their highest money maker.
Not really, I didn't buy this one or any of the others, I play with the points listed in my codex and haven't had any troubles with that.
I would guess it matters in the competitive scene but, feth that.
IOW you don't care about balance patches due to the poor initial writing of the codices. Fantastic attitude that goes hand in hand with the white knighting of the CA writing, ironically.
It's GW. Anything that got good points drops just assume they have excess inventory. Anything that got a points increase, they probably have sold most of that. Anything else is not really important for business operations. Who cares about quality when you can just FAQ it months later.
They have several games like this where they need to change the rules to sell excess inventory or to slow sales so they don't have to manufacture more. I'm sure it's a careful juggling act but they know they have a loyal fan base that is resilient to their tactics.
dotcomee wrote: It's GW. Anything that got good points drops just assume they have excess inventory. Anything that got a points increase, they probably have sold most of that. Anything else is not really important for business operations. Who cares about quality when you can just FAQ it months later.
They have several games like this where they need to change the rules to sell excess inventory or to slow sales so they don't have to manufacture more. I'm sure it's a careful juggling act but they know they have a loyal fan base that is resilient to their tactics.
I'm not even sure anymore it's sales-related. I think they just have no idea what needs to actually be fixed, so rather than put time into figuring it out to have a real fix (now that is likely because of sales and the crazy release schedule that probably does not leave much time for actual testing and design), they adjust points and appease the "muh balance" people until the next round when the cycle continues.
Adjusting only points proves that they really don't understand the problem, let alone how to fix it. It's an easy way to look like you're fixing balance while not doing much of anything. That's probably the reason why point changes seem so haphazard and random. They're just going by "is this getting used across tournaments? Raise its points. Is it not being used at all? Lower its points" and then a few random tweaks thrown in.
dotcomee wrote: It's GW. Anything that got good points drops just assume they have excess inventory. Anything that got a points increase, they probably have sold most of that. Anything else is not really important for business operations.
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a Winnah!!!!!
How do you explain newer units like the Admech Skorpius Disintegrator that is currently way too awesome for its current points and should have seen a points increase? Oh, it's the new hotness; a new small tank model smaller than a Rhino that sells for twice as much; cha-ching! (I expect the new Admech flyer to be a bargain in points as well).
Why have Necron Warriors not received a much-needed points drop? (no only plays them competitively anymore) Oh, it's because GW sold tons of kits years ago, there are plenty on the used market, and GW won't make much money off of that kit until they redesign them. Once they are redesigned, then expect the points drop.
Why did it take so long for the Castellan to get nerfed? Oh, it's because GW had to clear out more stock. Once sufficient numbers were sold, then it got nerfed.
Sorry to be such a pessimist, but this game could be so much better if the designers weren't constrained by the accountants.
bullyboy wrote:Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.
8th is what got me back in the game. I tried to come back in 7th but one look at the shitshow of rules and "feth this" came to mind.
is 8th the best ever? actually no ruleset is the best ever, since ever hasnt happened yet. Is it the best one yet? probably but I love RT/2nd so....
the game is fun, now it may not be for those who like feth you lists and squeezing every last minuscule point/whatever, but why on Terra are you playing a GW game. it has never been a competitive style game(cuz GW would rather both players talk & enjoy the game)and for the foreseeable future, isnt gonna change.
Errors happen, ALL THE TIME, irrespective of the company's ability/size to mitigate them. many posts have lamented the inability to catch even the most glaring problems. now whether it's due to incompetence, malice or neither for some it is just too much. If so then you really need to look in the mirror and ask yourself 'why do I continue to play this game?' since it obviously isnt what I want and vote with your $€£¥.
dotcomee wrote: It's GW. Anything that got good points drops just assume they have excess inventory. Anything that got a points increase, they probably have sold most of that. Anything else is not really important for business operations.
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a Winnah!!!!!
How do you explain newer units like the Admech Skorpius Disintegrator that is currently way too awesome for its current points and should have seen a points increase? Oh, it's the new hotness; a new small tank model smaller than a Rhino that sells for twice as much; cha-ching! (I expect the new Admech flyer to be a bargain in points as well).
Why have Necron Warriors not received a much-needed points drop? (no only plays them competitively anymore) Oh, it's because GW sold tons of kits years ago, there are plenty on the used market, and GW won't make much money off of that kit until they redesign them. Once they are redesigned, then expect the points drop.
Why did it take so long for the Castellan to get nerfed? Oh, it's because GW had to clear out more stock. Once sufficient numbers were sold, then it got nerfed.
Sorry to be such a pessimist, but this game could be so much better if the designers weren't constrained by the accountants.
Not always the case though.
It’s easy to throw in a pattern where there isn’t always one.
Generally, pricing was done based on the products role.
Characters and elite units would sell the least, thus a higher price.
Things like the rhino have to be cheap as people will often run several of them in an army.
It’s been like this for ages though so nothing really new.
Dual kits and kits with several options also took a hit and the price jumped too, despite their roles respectively.
bullyboy wrote:Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.
8th is what got me back in the game. I tried to come back in 7th but one look at the shitshow of rules and "feth this" came to mind.
is 8th the best ever? actually no ruleset is the best ever, since ever hasnt happened yet. Is it the best one yet? probably but I love RT/2nd so....
the game is fun, now it may not be for those who like feth you lists and squeezing every last minuscule point/whatever, but why on Terra are you playing a GW game. it has never been a competitive style game(cuz GW would rather both players talk & enjoy the game)and for the foreseeable future, isnt gonna change.
Errors happen, ALL THE TIME, irrespective of the company's ability/size to mitigate them. many posts have lamented the inability to catch even the most glaring problems. now whether it's due to incompetence, malice or neither for some it is just too much. If so then you really need to look in the mirror and ask yourself 'why do I continue to play this game?' since it obviously isnt what I want and vote with your $€£¥.
I mean, the OP has admitted they don’t even play actual real games of 40K. Make of that what you will.
And another vote for 8th being rather fun here. So salty round here sometimes...
bullyboy wrote:Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.
8th is what got me back in the game. I tried to come back in 7th but one look at the shitshow of rules and "feth this" came to mind.
is 8th the best ever? actually no ruleset is the best ever, since ever hasnt happened yet. Is it the best one yet? probably but I love RT/2nd so....
the game is fun, now it may not be for those who like feth you lists and squeezing every last minuscule point/whatever, but why on Terra are you playing a GW game. it has never been a competitive style game(cuz GW would rather both players talk & enjoy the game)and for the foreseeable future, isnt gonna change.
Errors happen, ALL THE TIME, irrespective of the company's ability/size to mitigate them. many posts have lamented the inability to catch even the most glaring problems. now whether it's due to incompetence, malice or neither for some it is just too much. If so then you really need to look in the mirror and ask yourself 'why do I continue to play this game?' since it obviously isnt what I want and vote with your $€£¥.
I mean, the OP has admitted they don’t even play actual real games of 40K. Make of that what you will.
And another vote for 8th being rather fun here. So salty round here sometimes...
Who has time to play? Complaining on Dakka is the true hobby end game.
bullyboy wrote:Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.
8th is what got me back in the game. I tried to come back in 7th but one look at the shitshow of rules and "feth this" came to mind.
is 8th the best ever? actually no ruleset is the best ever, since ever hasnt happened yet. Is it the best one yet? probably but I love RT/2nd so....
the game is fun, now it may not be for those who like feth you lists and squeezing every last minuscule point/whatever, but why on Terra are you playing a GW game. it has never been a competitive style game(cuz GW would rather both players talk & enjoy the game)and for the foreseeable future, isnt gonna change.
Errors happen, ALL THE TIME, irrespective of the company's ability/size to mitigate them. many posts have lamented the inability to catch even the most glaring problems. now whether it's due to incompetence, malice or neither for some it is just too much. If so then you really need to look in the mirror and ask yourself 'why do I continue to play this game?' since it obviously isnt what I want and vote with your $€£¥.
I mean, the OP has admitted they don’t even play actual real games of 40K. Make of that what you will.
And another vote for 8th being rather fun here. So salty round here sometimes...
Yeah, shame that some people are saying you should hold GW to a standard higher than something like Walmart, and then you continue to make excuses for things that people are catching like half an hour into leaked rules.
That's not a strawman. Quite a few people have proved they don't care about quality in this very thread, not to mention how often people make excuses and say how it's no big deal to have tons of proofing and grammatical or copy/paste errors in a "premium" book put out by a large multi-million dollar company. Slayer is 100% right. For some reason GW can put out horrible quality that any other company would get lambasted over and people are happy to shell out money for it and defend them putting out poor quality. Some time ago I even saw some birdbrain defend it by saying GW isn't a publishing company, as though that somehow means they shouldn't do any proofreading or proper editing like you know, every other fething company in the world that has books they also sell.
My only gripe with errors in the books, and by errors I mean stuff that are typos, is the fact that GW seemed to have sent to print non english versions with a bit different points in it. Not everyone in my area reads or likes to use english, but more then a few use german as their foreign language. I really hope the german CA is not going to end up requiring a separate FAQ.
On the rest, I do agree with others, that GW is selling a premium product, and premium products are suppose to be as close to foultless as possible. A bad product would kill any company making luxurious stuff, with GW there seem to be whole legions of people, who think that having multiple errors in 50$ books is okey.
Karol wrote: My only gripe with errors in the books, and by errors I mean stuff that are typos, is the fact that GW seemed to have sent to print non english versions with a bit different points in it. Not everyone in my area reads or likes to use english, but more then a few use german as their foreign language. I really hope the german CA is not going to end up requiring a separate FAQ.
On the rest, I do agree with others, that GW is selling a premium product, and premium products are suppose to be as close to foultless as possible. A bad product would kill any company making luxurious stuff, with GW there seem to be whole legions of people, who think that having multiple errors in 50$ books is okey.
Chapter approved is $35, but still. It's not like this is the first book. Every single book has been riddled with errors or just lazy copy/pasting things without taking into account that it's changed elsewhere. So people are never sure what's right or not because a lazy copy/paste in CA might mean someone forgot to check FAQs, or that they actually changed it back. It causes more confusion and it happens EVERY. fething. TIME.
Well we have a 23% vat on all books, plus GW has some really strange exchange rates as far as pound to zloty goes. On new stuff it is was over costed in their favour. On some old stuff on the other hand it seems cheap, if you take GW price in zlotys and change it to dollars, the scouts come out cheaper then in the US. That is of course, if GW actualy has them in stock.
Don't disagree about the errors though, or that their products seem to require a day one errata/FAQ.
It’s a strawman if you’re putting words in my mouth that I didn’t say. I made no excuses for GW, mounted no defense of errors etc. You inferred a lot. I simply said the OP doesn’t play, that I enjoy 8th and the salt levels can become tiring. You provided everything else. If other people in the thread said stuff do direct it at them.
JohnnyHell wrote: It’s a strawman if you’re putting words in my mouth that I didn’t say. I made no excuses for GW, mounted no defense of errors etc. You inferred a lot. I simply said the OP doesn’t play, that I enjoy 8th and the salt levels can become tiring. You provided everything else. If other people in the thread said stuff do direct it at them.
Speaking as a 40k salt factory, I can tell you that if you want the salt to stop flowing, you'll have to stop the mine. There are justified reasons to be salty about 8th edition, and those reasons are squarely in GW's realm, not that of the players.
I go off and on of 8th - am playing now thanks to the new Sororitas dex. But I won't be surprised if I am gone again in a few months.
To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.
Octopoid wrote: To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.
Other companies making mistakes doesn't excuse GW.
Octopoid wrote: To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.
Other companies making mistakes doesn't excuse GW.
Octopoid wrote: To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.
Other companies making mistakes doesn't excuse GW.
Never said it did. Re-read what I said.
You didn't say it, but I got that implication from your post. If that wasn't intended, my bad.
Octopoid wrote: To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.
Other companies making mistakes doesn't excuse GW.
Never said it did. Re-read what I said.
You didn't say it, but I got that implication from your post. If that wasn't intended, my bad.
Assuming implications can be dangerous. Apology accepted.
Octopoid wrote: To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.
White wolf has been sold 3 times now and the current product line is mostly in pdf or print on demand because it sells too poorly to put product on the shelves. WW pays/has paid for their mistakes.
Octopoid wrote: To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.
Other companies making mistakes doesn't excuse GW.
Never said it did. Re-read what I said.
You didn't say it, but I got that implication from your post. If that wasn't intended, my bad.
I don't think you need to apologise. What other reason is there for bringing in other companies with shoddy products into a thread discussing the lack of quality in GW products than to attempt to deflect from GWs failures with a "other people release crap, so GW is not on their own!" argument?
The discussion is whether GW, the biggest tabletop miniatures game company in the world, should be releasing shoddy products. That other companies release shoddy products is irrelevant.
Octopoid wrote: To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.
Other companies making mistakes doesn't excuse GW.
Never said it did. Re-read what I said.
You didn't say it, but I got that implication from your post. If that wasn't intended, my bad.
I don't think you need to apologise. What other reason is there for bringing in other companies with shoddy products into a thread discussing the lack of quality in GW products than to attempt to deflect from GWs failures with a "other people release crap, so GW is not on their own!" argument?
The discussion is whether GW, the biggest tabletop miniatures game company in the world, should be releasing shoddy products. That other companies release shoddy products is irrelevant.
If other people's shoddy product is irrelevant, other people should stop bringing them up. I said in my first post, "To everyone... saying that other companies do better..." If you're not one of those people, my post wasn't directed at you. Feel free to not reply to it.
I've actually became very skeptical over some of the points values after some thought today. I'll give two examples: astropaths and ogryn. Both unusual points changes and both reversions back to their Codex values. Ogryn hardly needed a points increase, and Astropaths are pretty much must-takes now.
I have a sneaking suspicion that these are errors, where the original Codex value was copied and the previous CA values were forgotten. I would like to know if anyone else can spot similar changes, as these are just the ones that jumped out at me being a Guard player. If this is a widespread phenomena it could mean that the whole document is massively corrupted.
Trickstick wrote: I've actually became very skeptical over some of the points values after some thought today. I'll give two examples: astropaths and ogryn. Both unusual points changes and both reversions back to their Codex values. Ogryn hardly needed a points increase, and Astropaths are pretty much must-takes now.
I have a sneaking suspicion that these are errors, where the original Codex value was copied and the previous CA values were forgotten. I would like to know if anyone else can spot similar changes, as these are just the ones that jumped out at me being a Guard player. If this is a widespread phenomena it could mean that the whole document is massively corrupted.
Agreed, especially with the Ogryn one. I'm not sure I've ever seen Ogryns in any serious list in 8th edition. Bullgryns, yes; never Ogryns. This brings up another couple of problems. Firstly, GW is so incompetent we can't even trust content that superficially doesn't have any problems with it. Secondly, all these changes are done in a super-secret fashion without any explanation at all as to what the design goals were, why some things were reduced while others went up, why most changes are reductions for underperforming units rather than increases for overperforming ones, etc. GW are the only gaming company I know of that does these sort of fixes but leaves the players in the dark about why they've made the changes they have.
mightymconeshot wrote: Yes. Space wolves fast attack reverted back to codex prices. Sky claws went up a point and landspeeders 25 I think.
Are those unusual changes for the meta? I'm not exactly clued in to all the armies these days, but were those units under/over costed to any real degree?
mightymconeshot wrote: Yes. Space wolves fast attack reverted back to codex prices. Sky claws went up a point and landspeeders 25 I think.
Are those unusual changes for the meta? I'm not exactly clued in to all the armies these days, but were those units under/over costed to any real degree?
Both grotesquely overcosted, yes. Would you really spend 70pts on a Land Speeder (T5/6W) when you could get a Razorback (T7/10W and 6-model transport) for the same price?
The space wolf speeder was the only one to go up in points. Unless SW are getting some super speeder buff its a copy/paste error (also TWC need a points cut beyond storm shields and they didn't get one despite the characters riding thunderwolves all going down...).
There are other issues for sure. Issues which shouldn't have made it past any half-arsed QA. There's no good reason that GW couldn't proof-read the damned book before they sent it to the printer outside of blind allegiance from fanbois (I'm one) and gross internal mismanagement. At this point GW doesn't have to GAF because people it hasn't impacted their bottom line and it won't as long as casuals don't care and competitive players feel forced to buy the new products to not get left behind the power curve (and adhere to tournament rules about bringing your army materials).
Maybe someone went a little bit to gong ho with copy pasting stuff, and forgot that maybe in the past some of the point costs get amended? Or GW just doesnt care or has an intern do it.
The best thing I think 8th has going for it is the quality of the sculpts is beyond what we've seen before, and in a BIG way. I would presume a large portion of the buyer base these days are people who enjoy the models or the modeling, more than the game.
Think about Youtube painters. They likely have to buy multiple boxes of the hot new thing just to do how-to videos. Think about the people who make the kit bashes. Or do unboxing videos but don't ACTUALLY play the game. Twitch has turned 40k into a hobbyists thing, and less of a game thing. More people watch the painting videos than the tournament game videos or the match videos. Check the twitch stats.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The best thing I think 8th has going for it is the quality of the sculpts is beyond what we've seen before, and in a BIG way. I would presume a large portion of the buyer base these days are people who enjoy the models or the modeling, more than the game.
Think about Youtube painters. They likely have to buy multiple boxes of the hot new thing just to do how-to videos. Think about the people who make the kit bashes. Or do unboxing videos but don't ACTUALLY play the game. Twitch has turned 40k into a hobbyists thing, and less of a game thing. More people watch the painting videos than the tournament game videos or the match videos. Check the twitch stats.
umm pretty sure it's always been a hobbyist thing.
Of the groups that I play in, there are about 20-30 people. 4 are pure painters, and about 13-15 are playing but aren't competitive and just enjoy the break from D&D and painting. about 2 guys are strictly competitive and pay to have their models painted.
BrianDavion wrote: Yes it's too much to expect the book to be absolutely FLAWLESS.
Nothing can be expected to be flawless. I expect mistakes and typos and other little small errors here and there.
However, I expect mistakes to be a learning experience. I shouldn't find the same exact types of mistakes over and over again, and they shouldn't be increasing in number. That's doing the opposite of learning from your mistakes.
I'm starting to think that this is what happens when there's too much of a focus on cranking out new stuff. Or maybe it's what happens when you have too many fluff writers and not enough crunch writers. Or when your only third-party playtesters are "gaming pages" that will never do anything more than fellate GW for giving them plastic toys and toy books.
That is the rate of error free books GW has produced in 8th edition. I can fully understand some, or even maybe most books having an error or two.
But every. single. one?
Honest question- are you counting simple typos and stuff like that? Because I can overlook "Daethwatch Vetrean" or something. Or is this only actual errors that outright impact the mechanics/rules, like numbers and the like?
That is the rate of error free books GW has produced in 8th edition. I can fully understand some, or even maybe most books having an error or two.
But every. single. one?
Honest question- are you counting simple typos and stuff like that? Because I can overlook "Daethwatch Vetrean" or something. Or is this only actual errors that outright impact the mechanics/rules, like numbers and the like?
Every single codex has needed rules errata. Granted, some of that is due to a lack of USR, but it still counts because GW decided (rightly) they can't be trusted to implement USRs properly.
No, they've learned from their mistakes. But what they've learned is that such mistakes don't negatively affect their sales figures, and that doing any sort of serious quality control is therefore not a justifiable expense. Their customers have proven they will keep drinking from the endless firehose of codexes, supplements and errata-you-pay-for no matter how many errors they contain.
But guys, Jervis told us that GW uses a magical points calculating super computer spreadsheet to come up with points values which is almost always correct.*
So we should totally trust GW and not critique them.
Or something.
*I wish I was making that up... ('Rules of Engagement' & 'Glory Points' in White Dwarf, March 2019)
I have to restrain myself from putting on the tinfoil hat.
Because sometimes it seems like GW "accidentally" messes up the balancing and rules, because I've watched a stack of IH supplements vanish like they came with a hot chick and lifetime supply of beer.
I also 'accidentally' had a bunch of $1 and $5 bills and got lost, and went into a strip club to ask for directions...
Take off your tin-foil hat. If GW is making rules or points values to sell models, they are even worst at their job than if they are honestly trying to balance things.
Think about it. If they are using rules to sell models then their miss rate is simply unexplainable. What model from the entire Phobos range is actually selling like hot cakes? What about the new Chaos Space Marine kits from early 2019? Which of those besides the Lord Discordant is burning up the meta and selling out all the time? Sure, the sold out the Adepta Sororitas Army Box, but do you hear anyone crowing about the OP model in that box or Codex?
alextroy wrote: Take off your tin-foil hat. If GW is making rules or points values to sell models, they are even worst at their job than if they are honestly trying to balance things.
Think about it. If they are using rules to sell models then their miss rate is simply unexplainable. What model from the entire Phobos range is actually selling like hot cakes? What about the new Chaos Space Marine kits from early 2019? Which of those besides the Lord Discordant is burning up the meta and selling out all the time? Sure, the sold out the Adepta Sororitas Army Box, but do you hear anyone crowing about the OP model in that box or Codex?
I'll do one better.
[Puts on EVEN BIGGER Tinfoil hat]
Many of the models that are more appealing are older, non-Primaris Models and GW is deliberately flawing the rules in order to get as many of these models sold off as possible before ultimately discontinuing all production and support for Non-Primaris marines.
I have ascended from the lesser conspiracy theory and I am now become one with the greater, more insane conspiracy theory.
Another (thing that seems like an) error: (Astra Militarum) Lascannons received a 5 point points drop, twin lascannons did not receive a points adjustment and have remained at 2x the previous cost, while every other twin weapon that I have looked at is consistently priced at 2x the base weapon.
But guys, Jervis told us that GW uses a magical points calculating super computer spreadsheet to come up with points values which is almost always correct.*
The output of that computer is only as good as the assumptions made in the creation of the formula used to create the outputs. Given that GW seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the way their own game is being played, and it would be exeptionally difficult to actually account for all possible factors and variables, I think its safe to say that what they think is a correct points value is far removed from what would actually be a correct points value.
Trickstick wrote: I've actually became very skeptical over some of the points values after some thought today. I'll give two examples: astropaths and ogryn. Both unusual points changes and both reversions back to their Codex values. Ogryn hardly needed a points increase, and Astropaths are pretty much must-takes now.
I have a sneaking suspicion that these are errors, where the original Codex value was copied and the previous CA values were forgotten. I would like to know if anyone else can spot similar changes, as these are just the ones that jumped out at me being a Guard player. If this is a widespread phenomena it could mean that the whole document is massively corrupted.
I know I'm being a broken record but how else do you explain gw giving almost every low in the game a point cut but leaving the hellforged/relic ones at their astronomically overinflated prices other than just copying their prices from last year's ca?
I think gw just forgets about certain units. I had to email them repeatedly for a couple months just to get them to realize that the hellforged versions were literally the only super heavys that weren't relentless and get them to give them daemonic machine spirit.
GW seems to forget a ton of stuff. If there was ever any proof the game is bloated to feth, it's that they often forget their own rules and errata and even units!
Togusa wrote: Local tournament is making the GSC players use the 55ppm until an errata comes out.
That, is the toppest of keks.
Absolutely glorious. While we may think it is a jerk move, I kind of have to agree with the TO. Those ARE the most recent points released, so it would be unfair to say the GSC players don't have to use the most recent points compared to other factions. In a casual game though? I would tell my opponent to ignore the silly 55ppm unit price until fixed haha.
Lord Damocles wrote: But guys, Jervis told us that GW uses a magical points calculating super computer spreadsheet to come up with points values which is almost always correct.*
So we should totally trust GW and not critique them.
Or something.
*I wish I was making that up... ('Rules of Engagement' & 'Glory Points' in White Dwarf, March 2019)
Would that be the article where he said that for any given specific game the points will almost always be out - no matter what points you assigned because of the exact circumstances of the game (terrain/opposition/mission)?
The same article where the points calculator "only gives a rough approximation of the value of a unit"?
He literally said that no possible points value will be almost always correct and he said that the points calculator is only the starting point. So either your reading comprehension skill wants some work or you are just trolling here.
Togusa wrote: Local tournament is making the GSC players use the 55ppm until an errata comes out.
That, is the toppest of keks.
Absolutely glorious. While we may think it is a jerk move, I kind of have to agree with the TO. Those ARE the most recent points released, so it would be unfair to say the GSC players don't have to use the most recent points compared to other factions. In a casual game though? I would tell my opponent to ignore the silly 55ppm unit price until fixed haha.
It’s a jerk move no matter which way you look at it. TOs house rule stuff all the time. Blindly saying you have to follow an obvious typo is just bunk. But tournaments aren’t the be all and end all, regardless of what Dakka might pretend, and luckily most folk are reasonable and want to have fun.
He must really dislike the GSC, or the person playing GSC at the event wrong him once. But then again rules are rules, just because they are stupid, doesn't mean people don't have to follow them. We would get anarchy if people decided to not follow rules they think are stupid.
Karol wrote: He must really dislike the GSC, or the person playing GSC at the event wrong him once. But then again rules are rules, just because they are stupid, doesn't mean people don't have to follow them. We would get anarchy if people decided to not follow rules they think are stupid.
Cool, because of an type my grandparents lost 4ha of land, a house and my great grand father went to prison for voicing diconntent about it. In a week or two it is going to be errated, probably. Till then it is the rule.
In sports people lose placing all the time, because of typos, or stupid stuff like a seal on your gear being broken, or a slightly greyer shade of sole on your boots.
Am not saying I like this, or that I think it is a good thing that it happens. But law is law, people can't randomly just go on and change it, because they don't like it.
Karol wrote: Cool, because of an type my grandparents lost 4ha of land, a house and my great grand father went to prison for voicing diconntent about it. In a week or two it is going to be errated, probably. Till then it is the rule.
In sports people lose placing all the time, because of typos, or stupid stuff like a seal on your gear being broken, or a slightly greyer shade of sole on your boots.
Am not saying I like this, or that I think it is a good thing that it happens. But law is law, people can't randomly just go on and change it, because they don't like it.
These are not Laws, they are rules for a game. We can and absolutely should ignore obvious nonsense.
Karol wrote: He must really dislike the GSC, or the person playing GSC at the event wrong him once. But then again rules are rules, just because they are stupid, doesn't mean people don't have to follow them. We would get anarchy if people decided to not follow rules they think are stupid.
Obvious typo is obvious typo.
And yet not so obvious that it would get picked up by GWs crack editing team
Crack refers to their drug of choice, not their ability
These are not Laws, they are rules for a game. We can and absolutely should ignore obvious nonsense.
Do they come in writen form and exist to govern social interaction between people ? I think yes, unless my store is the only one in the world where people play the game, and all the stories about playing and even tournaments are just imagined by people.
I got disqualifed in a competition once for, my locker having its seal broken when I was having a match. did it have any impact on the match? no. The event was in a place where everything was surveilled, so I didn't sneak in between matchs to juice up before the match. No one cared, seal broke equals being disqualified. And IMO my matchs have more weight then w40k tournaments, I don't think anyones school scholarship depend on how well they play.
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
Karol wrote: ...a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord.
That is a stupid ruling. 40k canon is so loose that pretty much anything can be fluffed as long as it avoids known characters, and even then there is wiggle room.
These are not Laws, they are rules for a game. We can and absolutely should ignore obvious nonsense.
Do they come in writen form and exist to govern social interaction between people ? I think yes, unless my store is the only one in the world where people play the game, and all the stories about playing and even tournaments are just imagined by people.
I got disqualifed in a competition once for, my locker having its seal broken when I was having a match. did it have any impact on the match? no. The event was in a place where everything was surveilled, so I didn't sneak in between matchs to juice up before the match. No one cared, seal broke equals being disqualified. And IMO my matchs have more weight then w40k tournaments, I don't think anyones school scholarship depend on how well they play.
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
40k has always been meant to be house ruled. Even going back to Rogue Trader. Dakka has an entire forum just for rules interpretation.
All this stuff you're talking about sounds like zero tolerance kind of thing. Zero tolerance equals zero thinking. That's the kind of stuff that much of 40k was created to satirize.
Karol wrote: He must really dislike the GSC, or the person playing GSC at the event wrong him once. But then again rules are rules, just because they are stupid, doesn't mean people don't have to follow them. We would get anarchy if people decided to not follow rules they think are stupid.
Obvious typo is obvious typo.
And yet not so obvious that it would get picked up by GWs crack editing team
Crack refers to their drug of choice, not their ability
Interesting, i allways thought their editors were alcoholblind drunk irish leprechaun monkey Hybrids.
Karol wrote: We would get anarchy if people decided to not follow rules they think are stupid.
That's not how we get anarchy. It is, in fact, how we get progress.
That's how you block progress. Sticking your head in the sand to pretend something isn't broken won't get it fixed. People trying to divine what rules are supposed to be because GW uses loose inconsistent language is why their QA is garbage. Play it RAW or issue something that changes the actual text. It may not seem like a big difference, but it makes it easier for GW to adopt fixes that work. Especially if a bigger tournament adopts this mindset.
"55 pts is an obvious typo so for this event change the cost to 5pts" vs "55 pts is an obvious typo so we are going to ignore that change." Ambiguous rules really benefit from this if ITC/ETC changes something like SP which has been altered almost every single FAQ so far. If it works as GW intends they simply adopt the new text.
These are not Laws, they are rules for a game. We can and absolutely should ignore obvious nonsense.
Do they come in writen form and exist to govern social interaction between people ? I think yes, unless my store is the only one in the world where people play the game, and all the stories about playing and even tournaments are just imagined by people.
I got disqualifed in a competition once for, my locker having its seal broken when I was having a match. did it have any impact on the match? no. The event was in a place where everything was surveilled, so I didn't sneak in between matchs to juice up before the match. No one cared, seal broke equals being disqualified. And IMO my matchs have more weight then w40k tournaments, I don't think anyones school scholarship depend on how well they play.
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
40k has always been meant to be house ruled. Even going back to Rogue Trader. Dakka has an entire forum just for rules interpretation.
All this stuff you're talking about sounds like zero tolerance kind of thing. Zero tolerance equals zero thinking. That's the kind of stuff that much of 40k was created to satirize.
If 40k was meant to just be house ruled then why the feth are they selling you books full of rules every year? 40k is meant to make money. Thats it. It's a business.
Do they come in writen form and exist to govern social interaction between people ? I think yes, unless my store is the only one in the world where people play the game, and all the stories about playing and even tournaments are just imagined by people.
I got disqualifed in a competition once for, my locker having its seal broken when I was having a match. did it have any impact on the match? no. The event was in a place where everything was surveilled, so I didn't sneak in between matchs to juice up before the match. No one cared, seal broke equals being disqualified. And IMO my matchs have more weight then w40k tournaments, I don't think anyones school scholarship depend on how well they play.
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
Did...you seriously just use an anti-doping rule to try to justify blind adherence to an extremely blatant rule misprint in a hobby game?
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
I'm going to cal BS on this one. There's GOT to be more to the story. Or maybe she didn't win because it was a silly scenario but I doubt she was necessarily disqualified.
Playing a miniatures game requires a certain amount of judgement/discernment. Making GSC players follow an obvious typo is silly. The TO clearly lacks the ability to make sound judgements.
Besides, 40k has always had loose rules that encouraged (if not outright needed) house rules, interpretation and "Let's play it this way" sort of things.
The points gaff is especially painful, I have stuffed many of these points into an Excel sheet and costs out of alignment are rather... obvious when you scan through them.
Whom do they have for an editor? I may have to check the credits.
I think the people saying 'it's an obvious typo and the TO is a dick for enforcing it' are somewhat missing the point.
Tournaments need to establish consistent standards for what is considered 'the rules' and what's house-ruling.
So, should a tournament:
-Just house-rule the 55pt GSC back to 5pts?
-Also revert all the changes that appear to have been carry-overs from codex values rather than last year's CA?
-Do their own balance pass that supersedes CA entirely?
Because now we're getting into the weeds of subjectivity, and while we can all pretty readily agree that 55pt GSC troops is utterly ridiculous and clearly a mistake, I imagine there will be more disagreement about what else is a mistake.
I wouldn't want to be the TO who has to argue with players over whether my interpretation of GW's mistakes is correct. So I can understand the approach they're taking here: We're playing a tournament using official rules, this is the publication that GW says is official, use it as-is.
And I hope it draws attention, because maybe then GW will actually errata it, rather than rely on the goodwill of the community to patch up the $30 book that exists literally for no other reason than to be the final arbiter of points costs.
These are not Laws, they are rules for a game. We can and absolutely should ignore obvious nonsense.
Do they come in writen form and exist to govern social interaction between people ? I think yes, unless my store is the only one in the world where people play the game, and all the stories about playing and even tournaments are just imagined by people.
I got disqualifed in a competition once for, my locker having its seal broken when I was having a match. did it have any impact on the match? no. The event was in a place where everything was surveilled, so I didn't sneak in between matchs to juice up before the match. No one cared, seal broke equals being disqualified. And IMO my matchs have more weight then w40k tournaments, I don't think anyones school scholarship depend on how well they play.
You're equating 40k rules to anti-doping regulations in sport? Really? Dude, you need to stop looking at everything through such a narrow lens. IT seems like every single analogy you come up with is to do with some sort of overly competitive high school sporting event that has very little relation to...well, anything, never mind 40k. If you're going to approach 40k like some life-and-death sporting event you're pretty much always going to be frustrated and disappointed with the results.
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
As a previous poster said, I'm calling BS on that story. Which event was it? If it was an official GW Golden Demon I'm sure there was a genuine reason for the DQ, assuming such a thing happened at all.
catbarf wrote: So, should a tournament:
-Just house-rule the 55pt GSC back to 5pts?
I think they should do just that one thing. I may not be that familiar with GSC, but isn't it a basic troop choice that any army would pretty much be sure to take? Without that one fix, you are effetively banning GSC from your tournament. That is a decision you have to make as a TO. All (well, pretty much) tournaments have house rules, it seems like this is a no-brainer change to make.
Togusa wrote: Local tournament is making the GSC players use the 55ppm until an errata comes out.
That, is the toppest of keks.
Unless an actual GW designer is attending and playing GSCs, I fail to see how this is a positive thing.
Small tournaments do it. Word travels fast and the fact that it is being discussed on dakka is proof of that. Big tournaments are forced to make statements "No 55 pts is dumb" or "Well its dumb but we can't cherry pick things just because we think they are awful decisions. So yes 55pt GSC and marine supplements will be used until further notice."
Edit: And then once big tournaments do it we see decisions made like the CSM errata to officially define point costs for Oblits.
catbarf wrote: I think the people saying 'it's an obvious typo and the TO is a dick for enforcing it' are somewhat missing the point.
Tournaments need to establish consistent standards for what is considered 'the rules' and what's house-ruling.
So, should a tournament:
-Just house-rule the 55pt GSC back to 5pts?
-Also revert all the changes that appear to have been carry-overs from codex values rather than last year's CA?
-Do their own balance pass that supersedes CA entirely?
Because now we're getting into the weeds of subjectivity, and while we can all pretty readily agree that 55pt GSC troops is utterly ridiculous and clearly a mistake, I imagine there will be more disagreement about what else is a mistake.
I wouldn't want to be the TO who has to argue with players over whether my interpretation of GW's mistakes is correct. So I can understand the approach they're taking here: We're playing a tournament using official rules, this is the publication that GW says is official, use it as-is.
And I hope it draws attention, because maybe then GW will actually errata it, rather than rely on the goodwill of the community to patch up the $30 book that exists literally for no other reason than to be the final arbiter of points costs.
Oh. A cute slippery slope fallacy.
Any TO engaging any kind of critical judgement can differentiate a typo from ‘let’s just throw all the rules out’...
Though tbf the list likening any of this to doping in sports wins the prize in this thread. Wot even.
I never implied there is any sort of slippery slope or progression at all, so no. It's a subjective choice on the part of the TO as to what level of modification they want to apply to GW's ruleset.
JohnnyHell wrote: Any TO engaging any kind of critical judgement can differentiate a typo from ‘let’s just throw all the rules out’...
I know the GSC points cost is a typo. I feel pretty confident that the Ogryn and Astropath point changes are typos too, along with the other inexplicable reversions to Codex point values. Do you agree? Will everyone else agree?
The 55pt Cultists are just the most egregious example, demonstrating that no real effort was put into proofreading the document. With that established now there's no way to know which balance changes were deliberate and which are accidents, so we can only guess. It's up to GW alone to fix it.
While I expect professionalism from a company, a lot of the errors in the book are at least somewhat understandable.
But the gsc 55 point typo? Someone clearly didn't even bother to skim the points sheet. THEN the person who had the finished copy didn't bother to do it either. I'd imagine they'd have 1-2 professional or non-professional testers or something similar who would also skim through it. Nope. All missed this. That to me is just crazy.
Maybe a little dramatic, but this wasn't a mistake. It's a massive screw up.
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
I'm going to cal BS on this one. There's GOT to be more to the story. Or maybe she didn't win because it was a silly scenario but I doubt she was necessarily disqualified.
Karol telling cock and bull stories about his gaming group? Say it isn't so!
This hobby is a relatively small one, if something like that did occur it would be all over the various social platforms quicker than stink on gak.
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
I'm going to cal BS on this one. There's GOT to be more to the story. Or maybe she didn't win because it was a silly scenario but I doubt she was necessarily disqualified.
Karol telling cock and bull stories about his gaming group? Say it isn't so!
This hobby is a relatively small one, if something like that did occur it would be all over the various social platforms quicker than stink on gak.
All the way from Poland? I sincerely doubt you hear everything about the hobby either there or middle of nowhere Wyoming.
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
I'm going to cal BS on this one. There's GOT to be more to the story. Or maybe she didn't win because it was a silly scenario but I doubt she was necessarily disqualified.
Karol telling cock and bull stories about his gaming group? Say it isn't so!
This hobby is a relatively small one, if something like that did occur it would be all over the various social platforms quicker than stink on gak.
All the way from Poland? I sincerely doubt you hear everything about the hobby either there or middle of nowhere Wyoming.
Story indicated this happened at a Spanish Golden Demon event - given the painting scene in Spain, I think we would've heard about it had it happened as described.
A dude got told not to bring his models to the Citadel because he had bases that weren't from GW (and they didn't even say, "they are from another company", they said "They aren't GW's work" so for all we know he could have made them).
This stuff was all over Social Media in a matter of hours.
I never implied there is any sort of slippery slope or progression at all, so no. It's a subjective choice on the part of the TO as to what level of modification they want to apply to GW's ruleset.
JohnnyHell wrote: Any TO engaging any kind of critical judgement can differentiate a typo from ‘let’s just throw all the rules out’...
I know the GSC points cost is a typo. I feel pretty confident that the Ogryn and Astropath point changes are typos too, along with the other inexplicable reversions to Codex point values. Do you agree? Will everyone else agree?
The 55pt Cultists are just the most egregious example, demonstrating that no real effort was put into proofreading the document. With that established now there's no way to know which balance changes were deliberate and which are accidents, so we can only guess. It's up to GW alone to fix it.
So you’re choosing not to exercise any critical judgement. That’s... a decision. I think it’s fairly obvious what category the 55pt Cultists fall under but do keep pretending it’s something to build a narrative off of.
I find it funnier that people keep defending this gak and actually are okay with the level of bloat that the game has, calling it "depth" and in general missing the entire point. The constant errors, lack of knowing their own rules, gakky copy/paste jobs all point to the fact they are trying to do too much too fast and there are too many layers in the game.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: A dude got told not to bring his models to the Citadel because he had bases that weren't from GW (and they didn't even say, "they are from another company", they said "They aren't GW's work" so for all we know he could have made them).
This stuff was all over Social Media in a matter of hours.
I'm curious about this as I haven't heard about that at all. Granted I'm not the most social media savvy person out there, and we've all heard "no non-GW models" being done, but bases? I wanna see what happened there.
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
I'm going to cal BS on this one. There's GOT to be more to the story. Or maybe she didn't win because it was a silly scenario but I doubt she was necessarily disqualified.
Karol telling cock and bull stories about his gaming group? Say it isn't so!
This hobby is a relatively small one, if something like that did occur it would be all over the various social platforms quicker than stink on gak.
All the way from Poland? I sincerely doubt you hear everything about the hobby either there or middle of nowhere Wyoming.
Story indicated this happened at a Spanish Golden Demon event - given the painting scene in Spain, I think we would've heard about it had it happened as described.
Is there something special and social about the Spanish painting scene?
JohnnyHell wrote: So you’re choosing not to exercise any critical judgement. That’s... a decision. I think it’s fairly obvious what category the 55pt Cultists fall under but do keep pretending it’s something to build a narrative off of.
I see you are choosing not to exercise any reading comprehension, so I think we're done here.
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
I'm going to cal BS on this one. There's GOT to be more to the story. Or maybe she didn't win because it was a silly scenario but I doubt she was necessarily disqualified.
if it's a karol story, its bs. He's been caught out before telling stories that are in direct conflict with each other, saying things like he's a brand new player who started this year but in other posts talking about how he's played the game for a decade and it's never been this bad, etc. He has a new absurdly outlandish story for every single thread, my favorite one was the one about the gang vs gang brawls stemming over warhammer games.
catbarf wrote: I think the people saying 'it's an obvious typo and the TO is a dick for enforcing it' are somewhat missing the point.
Tournaments need to establish consistent standards for what is considered 'the rules' and what's house-ruling.
So, should a tournament:
-Just house-rule the 55pt GSC back to 5pts?
-Also revert all the changes that appear to have been carry-overs from codex values rather than last year's CA?
-Do their own balance pass that supersedes CA entirely?
Because now we're getting into the weeds of subjectivity, and while we can all pretty readily agree that 55pt GSC troops is utterly ridiculous and clearly a mistake, I imagine there will be more disagreement about what else is a mistake.
I wouldn't want to be the TO who has to argue with players over whether my interpretation of GW's mistakes is correct. So I can understand the approach they're taking here: We're playing a tournament using official rules, this is the publication that GW says is official, use it as-is.
And I hope it draws attention, because maybe then GW will actually errata it, rather than rely on the goodwill of the community to patch up the $30 book that exists literally for no other reason than to be the final arbiter of points costs.
That's an odd position to take.
Because I would not want to play at a tournament with judges who weren't aware of the various errors and mistakes in the game and willing to make corrections. Usually the expected standards are:
- One month delay after the publication of a new book, so that people can become familiar with it, discover the errors, and pray for an early errata.
- If there are any errata in use by the tournament, provide in advance to the players.
That way there's no argument, and no one has to deal with ridiculous typos in the point lists.
Disclaimer: Have played 40k since 3rd edition, and fondly remember the Adoption FAQ.
What's the betting pool concerning GW's errata to Chapter Approved?
Doesn't matter. You should see the gak that makes it through legislatures. It happens. RAW is not a thing in real law if the result is absurd or clearly not the intent.
Martel732 wrote: Doesn't matter. You should see the gak that makes it through legislatures. It happens. RAW is not a thing in real law if the result is absurd or clearly not the intent.
That's an excuse though. The more we don't reinforce RAW the more sloppiness we get with GW saying "figure it out yourselves". Does that make sense.
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
I'm going to cal BS on this one. There's GOT to be more to the story. Or maybe she didn't win because it was a silly scenario but I doubt she was necessarily disqualified.
Karol telling cock and bull stories about his gaming group? Say it isn't so!
This hobby is a relatively small one, if something like that did occur it would be all over the various social platforms quicker than stink on gak.
All the way from Poland? I sincerely doubt you hear everything about the hobby either there or middle of nowhere Wyoming.
Story indicated this happened at a Spanish Golden Demon event - given the painting scene in Spain, I think we would've heard about it had it happened as described.
Is there something special and social about the Spanish painting scene?
It's definitely known for its quality, and with painters such as Angel Giraldez in the area, you can see why.
I think if there had been a controversy at a Spanish GD - and the theoretical events would qualify as a controversy - then there'd've been noise about it.
As an aside, Karol - are there any examples of this lady's work up online, as far as you're aware? I'd be interested in seeing them, if they're as good as you're claiming.
(Edit: Flaming spoiler tags and quote trees *grumble* )
So, on the topic of the thread, apparently we are getting a FAQ in the next couple of weeks.
Of note in the rumor mill:
- The Custodes FW changes were a mistake, the Callidus should not have been dropped, same with the Telemon.
- A lot of the changes that went live were previously written, and there was no oversight since they were written, leading to them going out incorrect.
- Several changes that were meant to go out didn't make the printing date.
This all leads me to point out, yet again, that GW has ZERO clue what it's departments are all doing, and there is little or no communication.
- A lot of the changes that went live were previously written, and there was no oversight since they were written, leading to them going out incorrect.
- Several changes that were meant to go out didn't make the printing date.
how the feth do you mess that up? If this is true it means that basically all of CA2019 could be wrong, no?
Martel732 wrote: Doesn't matter. You should see the gak that makes it through legislatures. It happens. RAW is not a thing in real law if the result is absurd or clearly not the intent.
Problem with GW is just that no one knows what is intended and what not.
of course people forget what happened in the past GW intended something different than what the community thought and the absurd result was the right one.
We just don't know what are typos and what is intended and either we assume everything is right or everything is wrong, or we need to ignore CA until we get an Errata.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, on the topic of the thread, apparently we are getting a FAQ in the next couple of weeks.
Of note in the rumor mill:
- The Custodes FW changes were a mistake, the Callidus should not have been dropped, same with the Telemon.
- A lot of the changes that went live were previously written, and there was no oversight since they were written, leading to them going out incorrect.
- Several changes that were meant to go out didn't make the printing date.
This all leads me to point out, yet again, that GW has ZERO clue what it's departments are all doing, and there is little or no communication.
If any of that is true then this kind of thing is EXACTLY why *~critical judgement~* to divine the true intention behind rules is a BS concept.
Martel732 wrote: That's why TOs are basically judges. The rules say what the TOs say they say.
Just like the law is what the judges say it is, regardless of the legislature's intent.
Yep. This. And if you're not in an event, it's just a matter of having a quick chat with your opponent, as long as neither of you are going to be a big melt about it.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, on the topic of the thread, apparently we are getting a FAQ in the next couple of weeks.
Of note in the rumor mill:
- The Custodes FW changes were a mistake, the Callidus should not have been dropped, same with the Telemon.
- A lot of the changes that went live were previously written, and there was no oversight since they were written, leading to them going out incorrect.
- Several changes that were meant to go out didn't make the printing date.
This all leads me to point out, yet again, that GW has ZERO clue what it's departments are all doing, and there is little or no communication.
If any of that is true then this kind of thing is EXACTLY why *~critical judgement~* to divine the true intention behind rules is a BS concept.
Using critical judgement to determine that Cultists weren’t mean to be 55pts is not BS. It’s common sense. No “ifs” even needed to qualify that. ;-)
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, on the topic of the thread, apparently we are getting a FAQ in the next couple of weeks.
Of note in the rumor mill:
- The Custodes FW changes were a mistake, the Callidus should not have been dropped, same with the Telemon.
- A lot of the changes that went live were previously written, and there was no oversight since they were written, leading to them going out incorrect.
- Several changes that were meant to go out didn't make the printing date.
This all leads me to point out, yet again, that GW has ZERO clue what it's departments are all doing, and there is little or no communication.
Source please, because this sounds like the exact same 4chan based stupidity that was fomenting riots prior to the book's release.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, on the topic of the thread, apparently we are getting a FAQ in the next couple of weeks.
Of note in the rumor mill:
- The Custodes FW changes were a mistake, the Callidus should not have been dropped, same with the Telemon.
- A lot of the changes that went live were previously written, and there was no oversight since they were written, leading to them going out incorrect.
- Several changes that were meant to go out didn't make the printing date.
This all leads me to point out, yet again, that GW has ZERO clue what it's departments are all doing, and there is little or no communication.
If any of that is true then this kind of thing is EXACTLY why *~critical judgement~* to divine the true intention behind rules is a BS concept.
Using critical judgement to determine that Cultists weren’t mean to be 55pts is not BS. It’s common sense. No “ifs” even needed to qualify that. ;-)
No but using critical judgment to determine that the custom coven obsession "experimental creations" applied to ranged poison weapons and not just melee weapons seemed logical. Turns out that it was "objviously" not intended and that GW forgot to add a word there changed the whole rule.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, on the topic of the thread, apparently we are getting a FAQ in the next couple of weeks.
Of note in the rumor mill:
- The Custodes FW changes were a mistake, the Callidus should not have been dropped, same with the Telemon.
- A lot of the changes that went live were previously written, and there was no oversight since they were written, leading to them going out incorrect.
- Several changes that were meant to go out didn't make the printing date.
This all leads me to point out, yet again, that GW has ZERO clue what it's departments are all doing, and there is little or no communication.
This is top fething kek if true. Like it confirms that they basically each work on one thing, on their own, without communication with anyone else on the team, and push stuff out. Which to me is a surefire sign they are putting out too many things too quickly and everything is in a rush.
Martel732 wrote: It's just the way humans and language work. Professional law makers can't avoid ambiguity problems.
There isn't ambiguity there. If it strictly says they're 55 points per model, that's what it says. That's beyond being a typo, it is pure sloppiness.
But it can't possibly be what they MEANT. So there's your ambiguity. People have won millions of dollars in judgments off situations like this. Absurd results. The sniff test. Call it what you want. Strict RAW is not a thing in the world's biggest stages, so why should it be in GW-land?
Martel732 wrote: It's just the way humans and language work. Professional law makers can't avoid ambiguity problems.
There isn't ambiguity there. If it strictly says they're 55 points per model, that's what it says. That's beyond being a typo, it is pure sloppiness.
But it can't possibly be what they MEANT. So there's your ambiguity. People have won millions of dollars in judgments off situations like this. Absurd results. The sniff test. Call it what you want. Strict RAW is not a thing in the world's biggest stages, so why should it be in GW-land?
And who's to say that wasn't meant to be? Ogryns went up in price, after all. There are already rumors going about regarding no communication between departments (which, based on what we know, should not be surprising).
Martel732 wrote: It's just the way humans and language work. Professional law makers can't avoid ambiguity problems.
There isn't ambiguity there. If it strictly says they're 55 points per model, that's what it says. That's beyond being a typo, it is pure sloppiness.
But it can't possibly be what they MEANT. So there's your ambiguity. People have won millions of dollars in judgments off situations like this. Absurd results. The sniff test. Call it what you want. Strict RAW is not a thing in the world's biggest stages, so why should it be in GW-land?
Martel732 wrote: It's just the way humans and language work. Professional law makers can't avoid ambiguity problems.
There isn't ambiguity there. If it strictly says they're 55 points per model, that's what it says. That's beyond being a typo, it is pure sloppiness.
But it can't possibly be what they MEANT. So there's your ambiguity. People have won millions of dollars in judgments off situations like this. Absurd results. The sniff test. Call it what you want. Strict RAW is not a thing in the world's biggest stages, so why should it be in GW-land?
BaconCatBug wrote: Did you write CA19? How can you know what they meant? If GW didn't mean to make them 55ppm, they will errata it. Until then, they are 55ppm.
So I guess the only real option is to not play official 40k. Everyone just plays their own variant 40k, with the official version being a source that you an draw from however much you like. I mean, that's what everyone does anyway.
BaconCatBug wrote: Did you write CA19? How can you know what they meant? If GW didn't mean to make them 55ppm, they will errata it. Until then, they are 55ppm.
So I guess the only real option is to not play official 40k. Everyone just plays their own variant 40k, with the official version being a source that you an draw from however much you like. I mean, that's what everyone does anyway.
Which is a problem because we are paying for rules and the rules should be coherent. What everyone SHOULD do is stop buying their printed materials altogether to send a message. However I already know the people here won't do that for the most part.
BaconCatBug wrote: Did you write CA19? How can you know what they meant? If GW didn't mean to make them 55ppm, they will errata it. Until then, they are 55ppm.
Nope. But keep thinking that. Absurd results are to be discarded.
I kinda feel like the General's Handbook was better produced than the Chapter Approved.
I also really, really, REALLY wish they'd just do one block of Space Marine wargear like bolters or lascannons instead of reprinting the same bloody values for every single Marine force. Scrolling through page after page of wargear is kinda silly.
BaconCatBug wrote: Did you write CA19? How can you know what they meant? If GW didn't mean to make them 55ppm, they will errata it. Until then, they are 55ppm.
Nope. But keep thinking that. Absurd results are to be discarded.
Ok, can we have a game where all my Space Marines automatically hit? After all, it's "absurd" that they ever miss their shots.
BaconCatBug wrote: Did you write CA19? How can you know what they meant? If GW didn't mean to make them 55ppm, they will errata it. Until then, they are 55ppm.
Nope. But keep thinking that. Absurd results are to be discarded.
Ok, can we have a game where all my Space Marines automatically hit? After all, it's "absurd" that they ever miss their shots.
When are you going to learn what a false equivalency is? There's a world of difference between what is an obvious typo (and yes, it's obvious to everyone - even you - that it's a typo) and making things up. Yes, it's a stupid typo and indicative of GW's general lack of professionalism but in this case it's not going to bring the game grinding to a halt or stop people using the unit in question because, shockingly, we're all human beings and we can apply a modicum of common sense and mediation to our interactions with each other rather than acting like mindless automatons.
There's also the issue that while TOs get to make those kinds of calls you get to decide whether or not you want to go to their tournaments and have the right to make up your mind about whether the TO is a twit or not based on information other than what they give you.
Skawt wrote: Are the monstrous scything talons price of 60 in error? They were like 15 before.
Wouldn't it be great if we could trust GW's prices instead of looking sideways at everything wondering if it's an error or if there's something we're missing?
BaconCatBug wrote: There is no falseness in this equivalency. Both are absurd based on subjective opinions.
Your subjective opinion is what he's calling the false equivalency. A GEQ unit getting a 1000% price multiplier on every model, or Space Marines following the same rules as the rest of the game when it comes to rolling to hit, and the same core structure they had for decades straight. These two things being equally 'absurd', or one actually being 'absurd' at all, is the opinion that he is calling a false equivalency.
BaconCatBug wrote: Did you write CA19? How can you know what they meant? If GW didn't mean to make them 55ppm, they will errata it. Until then, they are 55ppm.
Nope. But keep thinking that. Absurd results are to be discarded.
Ok, can we have a game where all my Space Marines automatically hit? After all, it's "absurd" that they ever miss their shots.
When are you going to learn what a false equivalency is? There's a world of difference between what is an obvious typo (and yes, it's obvious to everyone - even you - that it's a typo) and making things up. Yes, it's a stupid typo and indicative of GW's general lack of professionalism but in this case it's not going to bring the game grinding to a halt or stop people using the unit in question because, shockingly, we're all human beings and we can apply a modicum of common sense and mediation to our interactions with each other rather than acting like mindless automatons.
He’s been asked by moderators not to post such nonsense fallacies but persists. Maybe he think because it’s not in YMDC it’s ok. Umm, it’s not. It’s still thread derailing nonsense.
BaconCatBug wrote: Did you write CA19? How can you know what they meant? If GW didn't mean to make them 55ppm, they will errata it. Until then, they are 55ppm.
Nope. But keep thinking that. Absurd results are to be discarded.
Ok, can we have a game where all my Space Marines automatically hit? After all, it's "absurd" that they ever miss their shots.
When are you going to learn what a false equivalency is? There's a world of difference between what is an obvious typo (and yes, it's obvious to everyone - even you - that it's a typo) and making things up. Yes, it's a stupid typo and indicative of GW's general lack of professionalism but in this case it's not going to bring the game grinding to a halt or stop people using the unit in question because, shockingly, we're all human beings and we can apply a modicum of common sense and mediation to our interactions with each other rather than acting like mindless automatons.
He’s been asked by moderators not to post such nonsense fallacies but persists. Maybe he think because it’s not in YMDC it’s ok. Umm, it’s not. It’s still thread derailing nonsense.
you cannot derail that which was never on such rail to begin with.
"
