It's new, from the upcoming Saga of the Beast. My question is how the hell did Ragnar behead Ghaz if his neck was broken and how the feth did Ghaz break Ragnar's neck if he'd been beheaded? One or the other had to happen first.
Christ.. more childish lore from GW.. 'I got you first..no! it was the the same time so were both dead'..sounds like kids when theyre playing... they need to do a game of thrones and actually kill some characters off... and not just magical ones who come back cough saint cough... that just makes any storyline super boring.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Christ.. more childish lore from GW.. 'I got you first..no! it was the the same time so were both dead'..sounds like kids when theyre playing... they need to do a game of thrones and actually kill some characters off... and not just magical ones who come back cough saint cough... that just makes any storyline super boring.
They traded a stagnant timeline for an advancing timeline with unkillable characters. I agree, super boring in the long run.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Christ.. more childish lore from GW.. 'I got you first..no! it was the the same time so were both dead'..sounds like kids when theyre playing... they need to do a game of thrones and actually kill some characters off... and not just magical ones who come back cough saint cough... that just makes any storyline super boring.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Christ.. more childish lore from GW.. 'I got you first..no! it was the the same time so were both dead'..sounds like kids when theyre playing... they need to do a game of thrones and actually kill some characters off... and not just magical ones who come back cough saint cough... that just makes any storyline super boring.
They traded a stagnant timeline for an advancing timeline with unkillable characters. I agree, super boring in the long run.
Ugh, some of us liked the stagnant timeline. It added to the whole "the galaxy is so huge and everything is so spread out that nothing you do matters" hopeless grimdark feel. Now heroes bounce from warzone to warzone all across the galaxy like their taking a trip to the next town over. Everything feels smaller.
I'd rather have characters being killed off than ones that can't die, with only minor filler fodder characters dying. its not like you cant still have and use their miniatures. LOTRSBG manages it fine.
thats also why I like the heresy.. people are actually able to die. makes a much more interesting story.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Christ.. more childish lore from GW.. 'I got you first..no! it was the the same time so were both dead'..sounds like kids when theyre playing... they need to do a game of thrones and actually kill some characters off... and not just magical ones who come back cough saint cough... that just makes any storyline super boring.
I'd rather they didn't do a GoT.
It wasn't an issue when there was a setting. The good old days.
Does it just feel like the PA stories are being rushed to allow GW to release new hero model for each army. And for every SM chapter he’s at deaths door and had to cross the rubicon primaris
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Christ.. more childish lore from GW.. 'I got you first..no! it was the the same time so were both dead'..sounds like kids when theyre playing... they need to do a game of thrones and actually kill some characters off... and not just magical ones who come back cough saint cough... that just makes any storyline super boring.
I'd rather this than a stagnant timeline.
This. GW wanting us to care about the same 5 big battles for 20 years was dumb and I'm glad we've moved on from it.
mrFickle wrote: Does it just feel like the PA stories are being rushed to allow GW to release new hero model for each army. And for every SM chapter he’s at deaths door and had to cross the rubicon primaris
What they need to do, to make it have any real meaning, is have at least one character attempt to become Primaris, and die on the table permanently. Saying "oh its a 60% chance of success" is meaningless if important characters have 100% of success.
mrFickle wrote: Does it just feel like the PA stories are being rushed to allow GW to release new hero model for each army. And for every SM chapter he’s at deaths door and had to cross the rubicon primaris
What they need to do, to make it have any real meaning, is have at least one character attempt to become Primaris, and die on the table permanently. Saying "oh its a 60% chance of success" is meaningless if important characters have 100% of success.
Could be that the 40% who don't make it just didn't have that extra special something that allowed them to survive the procedure. Established characters will never be killed off in such a fashion.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I'd rather have characters being killed off than ones that can't die, with only minor filler fodder characters dying. its not like you cant still have and use their miniatures. LOTRSBG manages it fine.
thats also why I like the heresy.. people are actually able to die. makes a much more interesting story.
You say this, but there's a reason everyone gets so obsessed about whatever new updates there are. Outside of Horus Heresy players, I've never met anyone interested in playing a narrative that wasn't set in the absolute most recent time period because, "You already know how it ends." You kill a character off, and sales of their model tank, sales of their books tank, and many fans who were invested in that character are likely to give up on 40k entirely. Because if there's one thing I've learned in introducing dozens and dozens of people to 40k, there are A LOT of one faction/one character fans, who are interested in one part of 40k and one part only.
From what I could tell they fought ghaz wrecks Ragnar. He survives and gets moved on up to Primaris. He hunts down Ghaz again and beheads him with his upgrades. Ghaz lives on after beheading as orks do. Mad dok puts the pieces back together and pumps him full of roids and the new Ghaz is born and there you get your two new models.
It's all so lame though.. If no one can die then what's the point. Wheres the peril? Why should we even care. They could kill off a character I liked, I don't know, kharn for example... And it would still be more interesting than this perpetual character nonsense. The Perpetual lore was bad enough, and now everyone's a perpetual without even being a perpetual.
Ill give lucius a pass on this as he has a cool and suitable reason for never dying.
The main difference in 40k now is the narrative focus.
It used to be the inexorable March of time, sweeping everyone along with it. Wars fought, heroes died and time marched on.
Special characters were players on the stage like everyone else. It's not like a chapter master is immortal, they die and are replaced all the time. Skip 1000 years into the future and no special characters alive now and be around.
The current story is now character centric. The narrative is driven around the characters and their actions.
They are now the prime drivers of actions in the setting.
Now they sweep the galaxy along with them, rather than the other way around.
This was the last vestige of verisimilitude the setting had. It reflected real life where the world just happened and we just live in it. It's one of the reasons imo40k has had such great appeal, this intangible feeling of authenticity, not in the sense of chainsaw swords and space Orks, but in the sense of the powerlessness of existing in a world that doesn't care about you and will continue 0n without you.
Now 40k is firmly on the comic book narrative train and it has become far less than it was.
I remember a time when people were arguing the affect of trying to stick ctan into all parts of the story. Now they're trying to jam every character into every event across the galaxy.
yeah I know man, like remember when they introduced Armageddon and no important characters where in it? ohh wait, they created characters for it. well.. the 13th black crusade.. oh wait that was Abaddon's show and creed was important to it,. major characters have ALWAYS played a big role in 40k.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Now heroes bounce from warzone to warzone all across the galaxy like their taking a trip to the next town over. Everything feels smaller.
I'd just like to say that this was a feature of pre-8th 40k as well.
Calgar was jumping around from defending Macragge, to Orar's Sepulchre, to Ichar IV. Sicarius, from Damnos, to Black Reach, to Damocles, to Medusa V. The same could be said of any of the large heroes - they just happened to be in all the important places anyway. And if you played as someone like Abaddon or Ghazghskull or Farsight, in a narrative campaign, you'd best hope it wasn't in the heart of the Charadon Sector, which is geographically and chronologically improbable for them to be present at.
The issue with pre-8th was the ever increasing amount of sub-dates and just how much you could cram into 999.M41. They had *so much space* to work with, but ended up putting it all in the last minute (chronologically speaking).
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BrianDavion wrote: yeah I know man, like remember when they introduced Armageddon and no important characters where in it? ohh wait, they created characters for it. well.. the 13th black crusade.. oh wait that was Abaddon's show and creed was important to it,. major characters have ALWAYS played a big role in 40k.
Exactly. Special characters have ALWAYS been a thing, and they've always been a BIG thing.
As long as ANY special characters have existed, 40k has had it's heroes and villains who transcend importance. And that's okay. But 40k, for longer than it's not, has had it's fair share of legendary heroes who defy the whole "you will not be missed" tagline.
EDIT: And, you know the whole "you will not be missed" part? That's still true, even now, because it's always been possible! As above, who cares if Abaddon doesn't die, and they're not quite as vulnerable as Your Dude? It's Your Dude, who cares about Abaddon when you're telling YOUR story? Pre-8th had unique characters who very clearly had plot armour, stole the show when they were around, and generally acted like, as said above, comic book heroes and villains - and that never stopped anyone making their own characters, who, as the tagline says, "will not be missed" in the vast scale of 40k? That's still possible now.
For a long time you needed your opponents permission to use special characters, so even though they were taking part in in-universe plotlines, they weren't on every table the way they are now.
Also, back in the day, the action Calgar took in the defense of Ultramar was commanding the fleet, iirc. Not falcon punching dudes. UM also had a special character, Captain Invictus, and he straight up died in defense of Macragge. That's at least a little different.
Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists and Captain Tycho of the Blood Angels are also special characters who've died.
BrianDavion wrote: yeah I know man, like remember when they introduced Armageddon and no important characters where in it? ohh wait, they created characters for it. well.. the 13th black crusade.. oh wait that was Abaddon's show and creed was important to it,. major characters have ALWAYS played a big role in 40k.
My point is entirely around HOW they play their roles, not that they have them.
There is a big tonal and narrative difference between a story told in 3rd person narrative about an event that has named people in it, and a story told through the actions of those people.
Current 40k would grind to a halt of these characters stoped doing things because all the core story hinges on their actions.
The Armageddon war wouldn't stop because yarrick was 5hought dead in his battle. Because the world goes on.
When story outcomes are only character outcomes, the story becomes about these characters rather than just including them.
There never used to be main characters in 40k, they all. Used to be side characters following the driving narrative of fatalistic inevitability
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Insectum7 wrote: For a long time you needed your opponents permission to use special characters, so even though they were taking part in in-universe plotlines, they weren't on every table the way they are now.
Also, back in the day, the action Calgar took in the defense of Ultramar was commanding the fleet, iirc. Not falcon punching dudes. UM also had a special character, Captain Invictus, and he straight up died in defense of Macragge. That's at least a little different.
Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists and Captain Tycho of the Blood Angels are also special characters who've died.
Maybe one of the distinctions is that it was institutions and races/cults/movements that were the prime movers not the people in them.
The thing is we know the Ultramarines will show up and fight a war, it really is irrelevant who is leading them. Are we to believe that previous chapter masters couldn't defend their Homeworld?
Chapter masters will chapter master, so it shouldn't matter that it's marneus leading them. Every chapter Master will lead them well and bring victory.
Each named character is a person in a position at a particular point in time.
The chapter Master is just as much a cog in the chapter as a brother is and they all fullfill their function.
Armageddon would have been fought with or without yarrick. And any warboss can lead a waaagh. There is nothing special about these characters.
It's like we're trying to find them medals for fulfilling the requirements of their jobs....
^Aye. The "grown up version" is that the individuals aren't as important as the institution they are a part of. The sacrifice of heroes is done selflessly for the survival/honor/etc of the institution. Not to make a comic book vs. match.
Or, as it was put in an unrelated video I watched recently, WWII didn't end with Churchill and Hitler in a punching duel.
Well this got deeper than I expected... I was only really commenting on the lameness of the whole 2 characters technically killed each other, but then they both came back to life thing.
The Armageddon war wouldn't stop because yarrick was 5hought dead in his battle. Because the world goes on.
When story outcomes are only character outcomes, the story becomes about these characters rather than just including them.
I'd argue that Yarrick and Ghaz were important locally on Armageddon. Armageddon was important galactically because of its distance to terra and the potential for snowballing Ork Waagghs.
Similarly with Creed at Cadia, they were context-vehicles for exploring a local conflict, examples of the kids of things that could happen anywhere. Yarrick wasn't supposed to have significance on the other side of the galaxy but he was a local hero on Armageddon.
What has instead happened is that Ghaz is now king of the Orks and teleports around the galaxy, rallying them. Yarrick became a galactic figurehead for the commissariat, his speeches included in the Primer.
This has the effect of reducing the general galactic conflicts with infinite possible iterations to facets of small interpersonal struggles. Orks on a forgeworld, looting plasmaweapons and having a massive conflict with the mechanicus? Better throw Ghaz in there. Orks fighting tyranids across a score of worlds? Ghaz shows up to lend a hand. These are now his fights, continuing with his support and blessing.
Insectum7 wrote:For a long time you needed your opponents permission to use special characters, so even though they were taking part in in-universe plotlines, they weren't on every table the way they are now.
They've been this way for over ten years now, at least. May have been for a long time before you needed permission, but that's not been the case for a similarly long time.
Also, back in the day, the action Calgar took in the defense of Ultramar was commanding the fleet, iirc. Not falcon punching dudes. UM also had a special character, Captain Invictus, and he straight up died in defense of Macragge. That's at least a little different.
Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists and Captain Tycho of the Blood Angels are also special characters who've died.
Now, in all fairness, I'd actually like to see more of this - characters who canon "die" still get their own rules. Make it clear to the audience that you can still use this character (maybe this is just their successor, or a past battle), but the game doesn't need to lose units just because the fluff has advanced.
Having someone like Sammael die crossing the Rubicon, or Creed/Harker die of old age shouldn't really be an issue, they can still have their own datasheet.
=Angel= wrote:What has instead happened is that Ghaz is now king of the Orks and teleports around the galaxy, rallying them. Yarrick became a galactic figurehead for the commissariat, his speeches included in the Primer.
In all fairness, Ghaz being the prophet of the Waaagh! has been his fluff for AGES. He's not the single figurehead, not yet, so there's still otehr Orks rivalling him, but he's always been regarded as one of the biggest, baddest, and cunnin'ist.
Yarrack, likewise, for his defence of Armageddon, makes absolute sense being venerated as such.
ValentineGames wrote:Just more daft fluff written by an unimaginative company to satisfy the slavering unwashed hordes.
Insectum7 wrote:For a long time you needed your opponents permission to use special characters, so even though they were taking part in in-universe plotlines, they weren't on every table the way they are now.
They've been this way for over ten years now, at least. May have been for a long time before you needed permission, but that's not been the case for a similarly long time.
When it happened is rather beside the point. The point is that the treatment of said characters has changed in emphasis. Not even about whether or not characters performed heroic acts, but how much the storytelling focuses on the acts of those individuals.
I have no strong feelings about the Ragnar story, but I would argue that Ghaz being killed and coming back is entertaining. It certainly sounds Orky enough.
"Didn't you die?"
"Yes. But then I got better!"
Maybe Ragnar should have been crippled instead. Make him a unit similar the Adepta Sororitas' Triumph of Saint Katherine or the old dwarf unit that had their leader carted around the field. Or even better, Bjorn finally dies and Ragnar is interred in his place. Tragic, moves the plot and give the Bjorn unit new rules.
I'm a bit disappointed that Ragnar was able to decapitate Ghaz. I'd have liked for Ghaz to have grown in stature since we last saw him, as orks apparently do as they live longer and win more battles. I'd have liked him to have been re-introduced as a Lord of War on par with the ork beasts of the Crusade and post-heresy era.
That's not to knock Ragnar, but i'd prefer it if a Space Marine (any Space Marine) even one as skilled and accomplished as the very best of them, not to be able to compete one to one against some threats. There should be some monsters out there that are not able to be poked in the eye by a space marine, or to have their heart carved upon which i think similarly reduced the threat posed by the monsters humanity is fighting.
Now I haven't actually read the story of Ragnar v Ghaz (it isn't actually out yet is it?), but if it portrays Ragnar as out-thinking Ghaz and using his army to isolate him and soften him up before delivering the decapitating blow, I'd be perfectly ok with that, so I'll reserve judgement for now.
As for Ragnar almost being killed and being Primarised... I think that's only to be expected at the moment, but it isn't particularly original. Maybe I'd prefer if he had heroically volunteered for the procedure to set an example, but I don't know.
I like the Primaris models and don't really have any issues with the lore of Primaris Marines, even if it does feel a bit shoe-horned in, but the Primarisification of existing heroes is particularly tedious. I don't mind them getting Primarised so much as the in-universe explanations are getting very repetitive.
Insectum7 wrote:For a long time you needed your opponents permission to use special characters, so even though they were taking part in in-universe plotlines, they weren't on every table the way they are now.
They've been this way for over ten years now, at least. May have been for a long time before you needed permission, but that's not been the case for a similarly long time.
When it happened is rather beside the point.
When there's comments that start making out like this is all a new development, and how 'everything new is bad', I think it rather *is* important, if only just to stop the spread of misinformation.
Unique characters have been easily accessible in game, and popping out and about in the setting at important events for well over 10 years. That's not a "new" thing. Making comments like "for a long time..." trivialises the equally long time we've had with easily accessible heroes.
The point is that the treatment of said characters has changed in emphasis. Not even about whether or not characters performed heroic acts, but how much the storytelling focuses on the acts of those individuals.
Similarly, I don't think that's been a massive change either, over those 10+ years. Sure, the characters are bigger (Primarchs), but they're still fundamentally doing the same things. Not every battlefield was dominated by Abaddon and Calgar in previous editions, and the same can be said now.
Aash wrote:I like the Primaris models and don't really have any issues with the lore of Primaris Marines, even if it does feel a bit shoe-horned in, but the Primarisification of existing heroes is particularly tedious. I don't mind them getting Primarised so much as the in-universe explanations are getting very repetitive.
Yeah, I must say I agree with this.
It seems that every Primaris-upgraded character we get was a result of some catastrophic injury that forced them into needing to cross the Rubicon. Sure, maybe it's not the majority (something like 50/50), but it feels tedious, as you say.
mrFickle wrote: Does it just feel like the PA stories are being rushed to allow GW to release new hero model for each army. And for every SM chapter he’s at deaths door and had to cross the rubicon primaris
What they need to do, to make it have any real meaning, is have at least one character attempt to become Primaris, and die on the table permanently. Saying "oh its a 60% chance of success" is meaningless if important characters have 100% of success.
I think the best candidate for this is the chapter master of the Lamentors. Someone of familiar enough esteem, yet also obscure enough to be disposable... plus is Lamentors, failing horribly is their thing.
Insectum7 wrote: Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists and Captain Tycho of the Blood Angels are also special characters who've died.
Let us not forget the more recent sacrifice of Colour Sergeant Kell.
In fairness though Imperial Guard and Space Marines are very differant in terms of their feel. IG are the faceless mooks in the grinder. thats what their feel is and thats what their fans like. I mean to be honest I suspect few guard players care about guard characters too much. meanwhile marines are... almost super heros, larger then life etc. and thus, GW belives Marine players care more about marine characters. (weather they do or not is up for debate).
I think what gets me the most, is that none of these deeds are special.
They're literally just ever Tuesday for them or anyone of their standing.
Do marine captains not kill Ork warbosses on the regular? Do warbosses not also kill captains?
Do commissars not normally rally troops against impossible odds to hold the line? Do they not also fight enemy leaders and kill or be killed by them
Do chaos lords not go on their own galactic rampages for their own goals?
The only thing special about these characters is that their deeds are expounded in purple prose.
The fact is there probably have been more commissars named olanius who have rallied more troops in more warzones than yarrick ever did...
No one expects that because captain Jeff of the space Chads also killed an Ork warboss he somehow matters to the continuing story of 40k.
Killing warbosses is what he was HIRED to do.
The only thing they've got going for them is that they keep tying named characters into each other. It's special because it was gazghkull, or it's special because it was drazhar.
But naming your kills doesn't change the fact that they are still just the thing your rank always faces anyway.
Honestly I don't understand why many people want their factions characters to be one dimensional superheroes that never lose. All of the Eighth Legion's primary characters, including their primarch, are either dead or M.I.A. and I feel that makes them more interesting. It adds to their characterization as bitter veterans of a lost cause, continuing to fight just because that's all they know.
Gadzilla666 wrote: It's new, from the upcoming Saga of the Beast. My question is how the hell did Ragnar behead Ghaz if his neck was broken and how the feth did Ghaz break Ragnar's neck if he'd been beheaded? One or the other had to happen first.
An idea I had for my ork warlord was for him to have "defeated" a Deathwatch sergeant who's kill team had boarded his ship. Basically the warlord charged the sergeant, who beheaded the warlord but was unable to get out of the way of the crushing bulk of the mega-armored body and was smooshed to death against a bulkhead. The dok stitched the warlord's head back on and so he was the winner.
That's probably not how the fight between Ragnar and Ghazzy will go down. At least I hope it's not.
(I'm not going to use that particular bit of fan fluff about my warlord anymore, as I don't want to be seen as copying the Gaz story. I'm glad I didn't put the effort into modeling him up with a detachable head.)
DontEatRawHagis wrote: I’m expecting more character deaths in the future, once the Index/Legacy rules stick. A good way to kill off characters.
I don't. I just expect some characters to be culled from codexes. It happened for years. Sergeant McSo-and-So and Eldar McPointy just didn't turn up the next time around. No explanation or death given or provided.
Really I just want to see Master Belial and Grand Marshall Helbrecht react to the fact that a furry with a chainsword stole their kill. In all seriousness they should have just had Ghazghull thrash Ragnar but do so at the cost of the greater battle like the Night of the Wolf between the World Eaters and Space Wolves. Cutting of Ghaz’s head was unnecessary. Also rather shocking that the wolves didn’t keep the head since they’re only a handful is skulls away from being Khorne worshippers anyways.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Really I just want to see Master Belial and Grand Marshall Helbrecht react to the fact that a furry with a chainsword stole their kill. In all seriousness they should have just had Ghazghull thrash Ragnar but do so at the cost of the greater battle like the Night of the Wolf between the World Eaters and Space Wolves. Cutting of Ghaz’s head was unnecessary. Also rather shocking that the wolves didn’t keep the head since they’re only a handful is skulls away from being Khorne worshippers anyways.
Ghaz winning a personal fight at the loss of the war would be UTTERLY out of character for him, he's a canny Son of a gun
Offscreen.Its classi GW styled pathethic fluff. Its like they couldnt just have Ragnar lose, so they had to make him actually kill Ghazzy first (Ragnar didnt fully die) to not upset SM/SW fans. It heavily undermines how threatening Ghazgkhul is that he actually lost to Ragnar. Pathetic.
Ragnar should be in Dreadnought.. it will made him badass and keep him alive with his broken body.
I agreed with space wolf would take Ghazghkull head home, to frame it. Why can’t they done that?!
Edit: if GW keeping everyone alive, then they all are old as Dante....
Hellebore wrote: The main difference in 40k now is the narrative focus.
It used to be the inexorable March of time, sweeping everyone along with it. Wars fought, heroes died and time marched on.
Special characters were players on the stage like everyone else. It's not like a chapter master is immortal, they die and are replaced all the time. Skip 1000 years into the future and no special characters alive now and be around.
The current story is now character centric. The narrative is driven around the characters and their actions.
They are now the prime drivers of actions in the setting.
Now they sweep the galaxy along with them, rather than the other way around.
This was the last vestige of verisimilitude the setting had. It reflected real life where the world just happened and we just live in it. It's one of the reasons imo40k has had such great appeal, this intangible feeling of authenticity, not in the sense of chainsaw swords and space Orks, but in the sense of the powerlessness of existing in a world that doesn't care about you and will continue 0n without you.
Now 40k is firmly on the comic book narrative train and it has become far less than it was.
I remember a time when people were arguing the affect of trying to stick ctan into all parts of the story. Now they're trying to jam every character into every event across the galaxy.
You are 100 percent right. I didnt even notice either, but before 8th edition I didnt really care about any of the characters.
Like yean, Creed was Awesome and Azrael was a badass, but to me they didnt actually matter. They were just characters.
Now characters are like celebreties. Even after 112 years most the same people are still around and jumpung back and forth across the Great Rift as if it doesnt exist. And it really doesnt feel like it exists either. The galaxy feels so tiny now. Not just cause of the more character centric narrative, but because of how insignificant anything is when it doesnt involve our special characters
123ply wrote:Its like they couldnt just have Ragnar lose, so they had to make him actually kill Ghazzy first (Ragnar didnt fully die) to not upset SM/SW fans. It heavily undermines how threatening Ghazgkhul is that he actually lost to Ragnar. Pathetic.
Could this not also apply the other way around?
"It's not like they couldn't just have Ghaz lose, so they had to make him actually kill Ragnar first (Ghaz didn't fully die) not to upset Ork fans. It heavily undermines how threatening Ragnar is that he could actually lose to Ghaz. Pathetic."
Ghaz isn't the Beast yet. He's a large Ork Warboss/Warlord, and a terrifyingly cunning one, but you know what's probably bigger and meaner? A Swarmlord. An Avatar of Khaine. A Great Daemon, or Daemon Primarch. Oh, these are all things that Space Marine heroes can/have killed. I agree that Space Marines (especially Wolves) need taking down a peg, but acting like this also wasn't favouritism for the Orks too misses the mark. Both Ragnar AND Ghaz had plot armour here, and they were both held to the expectation that they couldn't "just lose".
If Yarrick killed Ghaz, and didn't die in the effort, would that have made more sense? I don't think so.
Obviously the leader of an entire xenos faction being killed by a less important character from a Space Marine subfaction is completely fair and normal.
Xenos are second class NPC factions compared to space marines. Our job is to die and make them look cool. We all know this, some of us just don't accept it.
Da Boss wrote: Obviously the leader of an entire xenos faction being killed by a less important character from a Space Marine subfaction is completely fair and normal.
Less important is relative. To a Space Wolves player, Ragnar's pretty damn important.
Also, Ghaz isn't the "leader of an entire xenos faction" any more so than Calgar is the leader of all Space Marines. He's the leader of the largest Waaagh!, and is widely considered the most influential Ork in the current age of 40k, but he doesn't lead the entire race. That's what he's trying to do, but hasn't got there yet.
Not that I'm either an SW fan or Ork fan, but for what it's worth, I prefer Orks more.
the writers should just have a spin wheel, a coin and a dice set up in the office, and work everything out by throwing it all to chance. that would solve all these problems.
the Great rift should have been used to enhance the grim darkness of the galaxy for humans. I.e the empire is cut in half and now the forces of chaos can pour out into the galaxy. And for this they should have improved and updated chaos army lists. For the imperium they could have introduced all of the primarchs as this is what the lore has always said would happen. And then if they wanted to sell more SM models I think we’d have all been happy if they’d made a new range of models that are as nice looking as the new primaris.
As it is RG comes back and cawl comes out of nowhere with is never ending batch of super duper soldiers and says “don’t worry guys I got this”. So where a the peril it feeeeeeeeeels like humanity is on the front foot in the galaxy now and the threat is less.
And now Ghaz is suffering as a character because he has to be part of a half arsed story to enable GW to sell a space wolves primaris character.
When Fabius gets released I bet you that he will have gone through some story in which he is trying to get primaris glands and he ends up fighting a character from, well white scars are probably next, and he kills that guy and that guys crosses the rubicon and something happened to Fabius that buffed him. And we will have to go through this for IH, IF and so on
While I agree that Ghaz isn't the leader of the entire Faction, he IS the most important and most powerful Ork in the 40k universe. So I can understand when folks say "this makes Orkz seem like a minor annoyance at best" when the strongest and most influential Ork we got gets taken out in this way. It'd kind of be like if G-Man was defeated by Grotsnik; you'd wonder why this character who is supposed to be the "top dog" got beaten by someone who takes orders from even bigger threats.
That said, I imagine the fight would go something along these lines:
1) Ragnar and Ghaz find each other on the field of combat.
2) Ragnar promptly proceeds to get his behind handed to him, losing his arm in the process.
3) As Ghaz gloats over his victory (as he is wont to do), the nearly dead Ragnar throws a "hail mary" and manages to lop Ghaz's head off.
4) The giant Ork topples onto Ragnar, breaking his neck.
5) Ragnar's fellow Marines, seeing their fallen Captain, make a retreat and drag him with them.
6) The Grots find Ghaz's head and Grotsnik kindly reattaches it.
7) Ragnar crosses the Rubicon and we have arrived at the "present".
This would allow Ghaz (and the Orkz) to remain a "threat", while still playing to the Space Marine fluff of "winning even when the odds are stacked against you".
queen_annes_revenge wrote: the writers should just have a spin wheel, a coin and a dice set up in the office, and work everything out by throwing it all to chance. that would solve all these problems.
123ply wrote:Its like they couldnt just have Ragnar lose, so they had to make him actually kill Ghazzy first (Ragnar didnt fully die) to not upset SM/SW fans. It heavily undermines how threatening Ghazgkhul is that he actually lost to Ragnar. Pathetic.
Could this not also apply the other way around?
"It's not like they couldn't just have Ghaz lose, so they had to make him actually kill Ragnar first (Ghaz didn't fully die) not to upset Ork fans. It heavily undermines how threatening Ragnar is that he could actually lose to Ghaz. Pathetic."
Ghaz isn't the Beast yet. He's a large Ork Warboss/Warlord, and a terrifyingly cunning one, but you know what's probably bigger and meaner? A Swarmlord. An Avatar of Khaine. A Great Daemon, or Daemon Primarch. Oh, these are all things that Space Marine heroes can/have killed. I agree that Space Marines (especially Wolves) need taking down a peg, but acting like this also wasn't favouritism for the Orks too misses the mark. Both Ragnar AND Ghaz had plot armour here, and they were both held to the expectation that they couldn't "just lose".
If Yarrick killed Ghaz, and didn't die in the effort, would that have made more sense? I don't think so.
That's interesting. . . in a pretty recent thread you seem to be arguing the opposite:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: . . . Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
So like, which is it? Ghaz being nearly The Beast, and the grand architect of Armageddon, an event you recently argued was as important as The Great Rift? . . . or . . . Ghaz the "big Warboss" who just gets beheaded by a named Space Marine captain?
Yeah, Orks job is to be killed by space marines, like all aliens. They are a third class faction, NPCs, like I keep saying.
Why do we pretend otherwise? This game is about Space Marines killing everyone else. It is a power fantasy game for Marine fans. The rest of us are only here to facillitate them.
Da Boss wrote: Yeah, Orks job is to be killed by space marines, like all aliens. They are a third class faction, NPCs, like I keep saying.
Why do we pretend otherwise? This game is about Space Marines killing everyone else. It is a power fantasy game for Marine fans. The rest of us are only here to facillitate them.
except no one ever said that, however Space Marines job is indeed to kill Orks.
I mean stop and think about the state of the galaxy when the great crusade began. the three major forces in the galaxy at the time are humanity, eldar and the orks. Let's look at space Marines.
they're engineered to be super strong, fairly fast, exceptionally durable. their weaponry is designed to cause massive internal damage. honestly you could make a strong argument that Marines are basicly DESIGNED to fight Orks
I think what he's saying is that Space Marines (and the Imperium at large) are obviously the protagonists of the 40k universe. They're the literal face of the franchise, as well as being the focus of most (if not all) of the novels. Even in the game fluff, they're presented as almost always winning the day, in spite of the odds, and their model range dwarfs that of any other Faction. It should be no surprise that the environment that GW has created makes the other Factions feel like little more than minor obstacles for the Imperium to overcome.
Da Boss wrote: Obviously the leader of an entire xenos faction being killed by a less important character from a Space Marine subfaction is completely fair and normal.
Less important is relative. To a Space Wolves player, Ragnar's pretty damn important.
Also, Ghaz isn't the "leader of an entire xenos faction" any more so than Calgar is the leader of all Space Marines. He's the leader of the largest Waaagh!, and is widely considered the most influential Ork in the current age of 40k, but he doesn't lead the entire race. That's what he's trying to do, but hasn't got there yet.
Not that I'm either an SW fan or Ork fan, but for what it's worth, I prefer Orks more.
Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines. We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
Da Boss wrote: Yeah, Orks job is to be killed by space marines, like all aliens. They are a third class faction, NPCs, like I keep saying.
Why do we pretend otherwise? This game is about Space Marines killing everyone else. It is a power fantasy game for Marine fans. The rest of us are only here to facillitate them.
except no one ever said that, however Space Marines job is indeed to kill Orks.
I mean stop and think about the state of the galaxy when the great crusade began. the three major forces in the galaxy at the time are humanity, eldar and the orks. Let's look at space Marines.
they're engineered to be super strong, fairly fast, exceptionally durable. their weaponry is designed to cause massive internal damage. honestly you could make a strong argument that Marines are basicly DESIGNED to fight Orks
Of course. Marines are the strongest, most determined, most heroic and most best faction. They eat poison and spit acid. They are practically immune to small arms fire. They fire weapons so powerful the utterly shred other factions infantry. And the even have a new, even more durable version with even better weaponry, the sort that is support weaponry for other factions is their basic gun!
They are the protagonists of the majority of the fiction and recieve the lions share of the model releases. They are obviously GWs best selling minis and most successful concept, and by far the most popular faction in their entire IP.
People love power fantasies. Nothing wrong with it. It is cool. I like marines too!
Xenos factions (and chaos to a much lesser extent) only exist to serve as foils to the marines, people for them to beat up and keep the variety fresh for them so the power fantasy does not get too tired and boring. Orks are just a comic relief faction that exist only to get mown down by Marines in huge numbers. Big Orks serve only as faceless tough guy mooks to prove how bad ass marine officers are. Really big orks are only there for the final scene in a piece of fiction to make it temporarily exciting before the marine character wins. We are not a full faction really. Same goes for Tyranids, and Eldar, and Dark Eldar and Necrons. We are just different flavours of NPC for the marine players to beat up on. It is obvious. You know it is true too, I dunno why it offends you when I say it and you feel the need to argue against it. You are a marine fan, this should make you happy. The game has been designed to appeal directly to you!
Da Boss wrote: Obviously the leader of an entire xenos faction being killed by a less important character from a Space Marine subfaction is completely fair and normal.
Less important is relative. To a Space Wolves player, Ragnar's pretty damn important.
Also, Ghaz isn't the "leader of an entire xenos faction" any more so than Calgar is the leader of all Space Marines. He's the leader of the largest Waaagh!, and is widely considered the most influential Ork in the current age of 40k, but he doesn't lead the entire race. That's what he's trying to do, but hasn't got there yet.
Not that I'm either an SW fan or Ork fan, but for what it's worth, I prefer Orks more.
Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines. We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
are you really trying to argue the only person in the IoM whom should ever challange Ghaz is Gulliman?
that's just silly remember who fought Abaddon in Vigilius, it was Calgar, whom despite losing the duel, outplayed Abaddon.
bu abaddon is the "big faction leader" by your logic, only Gulliman should have been capable right?!
Ghaz is a big Ork Warboss.
Ragnar is a famous Space Marine hero.
You say can say he's no Grimnar, but actually he basically is.
They're both heroic marines rather than transcendent beings, and Ragnar is the heir apparent.
Nothing short of a god should be untouchable compared to the various heroes of the setting.
Da Boss wrote: Obviously the leader of an entire xenos faction being killed by a less important character from a Space Marine subfaction is completely fair and normal.
Less important is relative. To a Space Wolves player, Ragnar's pretty damn important.
Also, Ghaz isn't the "leader of an entire xenos faction" any more so than Calgar is the leader of all Space Marines. He's the leader of the largest Waaagh!, and is widely considered the most influential Ork in the current age of 40k, but he doesn't lead the entire race. That's what he's trying to do, but hasn't got there yet.
Not that I'm either an SW fan or Ork fan, but for what it's worth, I prefer Orks more.
Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines. We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
are you really trying to argue the only person in the IoM whom should ever challange Ghaz is Gulliman?
Not at all. Not even close.
I'll summarise my post for you, since you missed it the first time - 'every faction has a "Guilliman", a character that represents the best a [faction] can be. Dark Eldar (should) have Vect, for example. Eldar have Eldrad. Ultramarines have Girlyman. Space Wolves have Russ/Grimnar. Death Guard have Morty. Thousand Sons have Magnus etc etc etc
Ghaz is our that. A faction representative like that should not get decapitated by a "number 2/3" of another faction (unless it's part of some ridiculously intricate, self destructive plan/just as planned). This is poor writing. Particularly when it concerns the antagonists because it makes them seem much less of a threat.
Orks seem like a joke now.
that's just silly remember who fought Abaddon in Vigilius, it was Calgar, whom despite losing the duel, outplayed Abaddon.
bu abaddon is the "big faction leader" by your logic, only Gulliman should have been capable right?!
Bad example because from what I've heard Abaddon absolutely bitch-slapped Calgar like he was nothing, could've killed him quite easily but instead decided to return back to his ship. If I remember correctly this was really stupid, made very little sense in lore and annoyed many CSM players.
But Orks ARE a joke. They've always been a joke. They time travel to get 2 of the same gun, they wage galactic war for fun, they're all cockney and kill Titans with one bike.
pm713 wrote: But Orks ARE a joke. They've always been a joke. They time travel to get 2 of the same gun, they wage galactic war for fun, they're all cockney and kill Titans with one bike.
RIP Wazzdakka.
To be honest I don't disagree, Orks generally are a joke. Ghaz was/is supposed to be the -one- -scary- -Ork-. Now he's fell in with the comedy troupe.
Animus wrote: As to not finishing him, Calgar was was essentially dead, only reviving after Abaddon had gone.
And why didn't Abaddon take the approx 2 seconds it'd take to actually get the job done and kill Calgar for sure? The genius tactician and warmaster of Chaos didn't think to finish off his opponent? Seems.....odd..?
I think there's a difference between a Faction having humorous qualities and the same Faction not being a threat. For example, the Joker has a lot of dark humor associated with him and it works well because he's also a legitimate threat to Gotham. Imagine how much it would bring down the character if the Joker enacted a huge plan and Commissioner Gordon stopped him single-handedly and with ease.
Animus wrote: As to not finishing him, Calgar was was essentially dead, only reviving after Abaddon had gone.
And why didn't Abaddon take the approx 2 seconds it'd take to actually get the job done and kill Calgar for sure? The genius tactician and warmaster of Chaos didn't think to finish off his opponent? Seems.....odd..?
He was finished off to most outside observation.
He's literally described as being cold as a stone before he revives.
pm713 wrote: But Orks ARE a joke. They've always been a joke. They time travel to get 2 of the same gun, they wage galactic war for fun, they're all cockney and kill Titans with one bike.
flandarz wrote: I think there's a difference between a Faction having humorous qualities and the same Faction not being a threat. For example, the Joker has a lot of dark humor associated with him and it works well because he's also a legitimate threat to Gotham. Imagine how much it would bring down the character if the Joker enacted a huge plan and Commissioner Gordon stopped him single-handedly and with ease.
Brilliantly said. I literally couldn't have put it better myself.
Animus wrote: As to not finishing him, Calgar was was essentially dead, only reviving after Abaddon had gone.
And why didn't Abaddon take the approx 2 seconds it'd take to actually get the job done and kill Calgar for sure? The genius tactician and warmaster of Chaos didn't think to finish off his opponent? Seems.....odd..?
He was finished off to most outside observation.
He's literally described as being cold as a stone before he revives.
And you think that Abaddon, a guy that has fought against countless enemies and has killed countless Marines, with all those superhuman senses he has, would not realise that Calgar was alive and finish the job? K.
flandarz wrote: I think there's a difference between a Faction having humorous qualities and the same Faction not being a threat. For example, the Joker has a lot of dark humor associated with him and it works well because he's also a legitimate threat to Gotham. Imagine how much it would bring down the character if the Joker enacted a huge plan and Commissioner Gordon stopped him single-handedly and with ease.
Brilliantly said. I literally couldn't have put it better myself.
Animus wrote: As to not finishing him, Calgar was was essentially dead, only reviving after Abaddon had gone.
And why didn't Abaddon take the approx 2 seconds it'd take to actually get the job done and kill Calgar for sure? The genius tactician and warmaster of Chaos didn't think to finish off his opponent? Seems.....odd..?
He was finished off to most outside observation.
He's literally described as being cold as a stone before he revives.
And you think that Abaddon, a guy that has fought against countless enemies and has killed countless Marines, with all those superhuman senses he has, would not realise that Calgar was alive and finish the job? K.
The vengeful spirit was crippled and translating to the warp without him, he left a unit of his best chosen to finish the job while he got off planet while he could.
That and you know, having 0 hearts working is generally pretty fatal.
Insectum7 wrote: Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists and Captain Tycho of the Blood Angels are also special characters who've died.
Let us not forget the more recent sacrifice of Colour Sergeant Kell.
IG are the faceless mooks in the grinder. thats what their feel is and thats what their fans like. I mean to be honest I suspect few guard players care about
Genuine question, who has Ghazzy actually beaten in a duel? I'm not 100% up to speed on ork fluff but he's lost to Yarrick, Helbrecht and Yarrick again so far plus ragnar, but has taken down a handful of other warbosses.
Insectum7 wrote: Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists and Captain Tycho of the Blood Angels are also special characters who've died.
Let us not forget the more recent sacrifice of Colour Sergeant Kell.
IG are the faceless mooks in the grinder. thats what their feel is and thats what their fans like. I mean to be honest I suspect few guard players care about
Ew, no.
my point is most guard players don't want the guard with a ton of super larger then life heros.
And you think that Abaddon, a guy that has fought against countless enemies and has killed countless Marines, with all those superhuman senses he has, would not realise that Calgar was alive and finish the job? K.
Why is that unbelievable to you? It's a pretty new ability on the galactic stage, Calgar can only revive due to a combination of his heroic willpower and Primaris nature.
A regular space marine like what Abaddon has spent thousands of years killing would be dead.
Dudeface wrote: Genuine question, who has Ghazzy actually beaten in a duel? I'm not 100% up to speed on ork fluff but he's lost to Yarrick, Helbrecht and Yarrick again so far plus ragnar, but has taken down a handful of other warbosses.
Actually Yarrick has never beaten Ghaz in a dual. He lost both times, but was left alive because he was a good general and gave a tough fight. Helbretcht and Ghaz never dueled, they fought each other in fleet to fleet action and won. Master Belial lost badly a duel to Ghaz and had his spine broken (it got better), but Ghaz, as usual, left him alive because he gave him a good fight. Ghaz used to be an unstoppable killing machine who basically never killed his best opponents because he likes to fight them again and again.
Insectum7 wrote:That's interesting. . . in a pretty recent thread you seem to be arguing the opposite:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: . . . Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
So like, which is it? Ghaz being nearly The Beast, and the grand architect of Armageddon, an event you recently argued was as important as The Great Rift? . . . or . . . Ghaz the "big Warboss" who just gets beheaded by a named Space Marine captain?
Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
As for the rest, I'm talking about Armageddon, not Ghaz in particular. If I recall correctly, Ghaz isn't even AT Armageddon at the time of the Great Rift, having been chased off by Helbrecht and gone to the Octarius Sector. So, moot point.
But nice digging.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines.
No, he's not. He's the Calgar or Dante or Creed or Azrael of the Orks, and always has been. And you know what, that's okay - that's still SUPER incredibly influential - but it's not the Beast.
Guilliman is on the same tier as the Beast.
We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
You're still wrong. Ghaz isn't Guilliman. He's a Calgar, looking to become a Guilliman, but isn't there yet.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
You'd be right with Grimnar and Ghaz being on the same level, yes. But, more importantly, the gap between a 'Ragnar' and 'Grimnar' is smaller than that between a 'Grimnar' and 'Russ'. I'm largely of the opinion that characters of one tier lower can stand against characters of the tier above - ie, someone like Ragnar could be a match for Calgar, or Typhus. Especially someone with Ragnar's reputation and long history in the actual RL game itself.
Again, don't get me wrong, I don't think Orks should be a punching bag, and Ghaz *should* be on the Beast's tier by now - but he's not there yet.
Until then, he's on Calgar/Grimnar tier, in my eyes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote: Actually Yarrick has never beaten Ghaz in a dual. He lost both times, but was left alive because he was a good general and gave a tough fight. Helbretcht and Ghaz never dueled, they fought each other in fleet to fleet action and won. Master Belial lost badly a duel to Ghaz and had his spine broken (it got better), but Ghaz, as usual, left him alive because he gave him a good fight. Ghaz used to be an unstoppable killing machine who basically never killed his best opponents because he likes to fight them again and again.
Yeah, not sure where this idea of Yarrick beating Ghaz one-on-one comes from. Yarrick beat and killed another Warboss, one of Ghazzy's sub-bosses, and was able to strategically beat Thraka on the field, but as for actually beating him in person? Didn't happen.
One thing to keep in mind is every faction has a "he is theior greatest hero and is almost the primarch reborn" while for the blood angels it's Dante and Calgar for the Ultramarines, for the Space Wolves I've always felt Ragnar was more the "heir of russ" then Logan. I mean Ragnar has two pet wolves for god's sake.
Animus wrote: As to not finishing him, Calgar was was essentially dead, only reviving after Abaddon had gone.
And why didn't Abaddon take the approx 2 seconds it'd take to actually get the job done and kill Calgar for sure? The genius tactician and warmaster of Chaos didn't think to finish off his opponent? Seems.....odd..?
He was finished off to most outside observation.
He's literally described as being cold as a stone before he revives.
Again.. 'Well he was dead, but wait then he revived!'
Lame. Just kill someone off already. Kill off abaddon. He's one of my favourite characters, but kill him off please! Just make some good lore.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote: Genuine question, who has Ghazzy actually beaten in a duel? I'm not 100% up to speed on ork fluff but he's lost to Yarrick, Helbrecht and Yarrick again so far plus ragnar, but has taken down a handful of other warbosses.
Who has beaten anyone in a duel? Legitimately killed I mean.. Cold, six feet under, actually, truly dead. No one, because everyone's characters have to live, even if they die.
That's why the Heresy, where characters actually die, sometimes, makes better lore. Called it. Come at me.
Why is that unbelievable to you? It's a pretty new ability on the galactic stage, Calgar can only revive due to a combination of his heroic willpower and Primaris nature.
A regular space marine like what Abaddon has spent thousands of years killing would be dead.
Insectum7 wrote:That's interesting. . . in a pretty recent thread you seem to be arguing the opposite:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: . . . Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
So like, which is it? Ghaz being nearly The Beast, and the grand architect of Armageddon, an event you recently argued was as important as The Great Rift? . . . or . . . Ghaz the "big Warboss" who just gets beheaded by a named Space Marine captain?
Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
As for the rest, I'm talking about Armageddon, not Ghaz in particular. If I recall correctly, Ghaz isn't even AT Armageddon at the time of the Great Rift, having been chased off by Helbrecht and gone to the Octarius Sector. So, moot point.
But nice digging.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines.
No, he's not. He's the Calgar or Dante or Creed or Azrael of the Orks, and always has been. And you know what, that's okay - that's still SUPER incredibly influential - but it's not the Beast.
Guilliman is on the same tier as the Beast.
We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
You're still wrong. Ghaz isn't Guilliman. He's a Calgar, looking to become a Guilliman, but isn't there yet.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
You'd be right with Grimnar and Ghaz being on the same level, yes. But, more importantly, the gap between a 'Ragnar' and 'Grimnar' is smaller than that between a 'Grimnar' and 'Russ'. I'm largely of the opinion that characters of one tier lower can stand against characters of the tier above - ie, someone like Ragnar could be a match for Calgar, or Typhus. Especially someone with Ragnar's reputation and long history in the actual RL game itself.
Again, don't get me wrong, I don't think Orks should be a punching bag, and Ghaz *should* be on the Beast's tier by now - but he's not there yet.
Until then, he's on Calgar/Grimnar tier, in my eyes.
You seem conflicted and confused.
You agree that GW should have made Ghaz' a 'Beast' by now yet believe it's fine that Ragnar decapitates him because he isn't? Which is it? I also think Ghaz' should be a 'Beast', which is exactly why I'm disappointed he gets mugged by Ragnar who isn't of the same level.
Sounds like you don't think Ghaz' should be a credible threat (aka Beast') to me, otherwise you wouldn't be defending Ragnar cutting his swede off. Or do you think Ghaz' should win round 2? That he should be beasted up by then?
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Lame. Just kill someone off already. Kill off abaddon. He's one of my favourite characters, but kill him off please! Just make some good lore.
Senseless killing does not good lore make. There's really nothing to be gained at killing Abaddon at this stage.
What's so cringe about it? What sets a hero space marine apart from a normal brother? Biologically they're going to be very similar.
The Belisarian Furnace meanwhile is an established bit of fluff, so it makes sense for that to kick in when it does.
We don't really know the details of how the fight goes down. The writer could do a good job, or a bad job, it's hard to know until we actually get to read it. I do think main characters always bouncing off each other in these fights is disappointing, and would rather see a few of my favorite characters die to maintain the sense that there is danger in these confrontations.
When it comes to Ragnar vs Ghazzy, it's true that Ragnar isn't just some Captain. He's one of the most skilled Space Marines out there. Also, Space Marines choose their officers based on their ability to lead, not just their ability to fight. I wouldn't be surprised if in most Chapters their most skilled fighter wasn't the Chapter Master or even one of the captains. On the other hand, orks do generally follow the lead of the biggest and best fighter, so that's why losing a duel is very high stakes for orks. (To be sure Ghazzy is a very smart ork.)
Also, really weird stuff happens. Sometimes someone who is at a disadvantage gets a lucky thrust in. Sometimes someone who is at an advantage takes a piece of shrapnel to the face at a bad moment.
So, I'm just going to wait until the actual story gets released before making my mind up about it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One thing I want to mention is that "Warboss" is often used to cover a lot of different orks that differ greatly in power.
Codexes, campaign books and such don't always line up in terms of terminology, and there's also the issue of them often being written from the Imperial perspective using Imperial designations. Also I imagine orks themselves don't particularly care about conforming to any sort of formal nomenclature or organization (other than maybe those weirdo Blood Axes ).
This is what I've gathered from reading a bunch of the ork stuff over the years:
Big Boss - roughly equivalent to an ork lieutenant (hasn't had rules since early 3rd)
Warboss - leader of a Warband, which is usually said to be a hundred or so orks
Warlord -this is where it gets confusing because it seems to be a term with no upper limit, but I'd divide it up into three categories for our purposes
*Warlord 1 - leader of an ork Tribe, which is sometimes defined as "a few hundred to a few thousand orks" and sometimes as all the orks in a specific region
*Warlord 2 - an ork Warlord who has united many tribes (at least one planet) under his rule and is either leading a Waaagh! or about to launch one.
*Warlord 3 - an ork Warlord leading an especially large Waaagh! or the leader of one of the large ork empires (Snagrod, Nazdreg, etc.)
Primeork - the biggest orks in history, such as The Beast from The Beast Arises
Note: The Armageddon campaign books had somewhat different takes on the terms. Codex: Armageddon had a Warband as 300 - 3000 orks IIRC (I'd need to dig it out to confirm) which is more analogous to a Tribe in other sources. The Waaagh! Ghazghkull supplement had Warlords leading "Warhordes" (a term I've only seen in that book) which seemed to be about the size of tribe but they don't give specific numbers.
It's confusing because Warlord 1s are relatively common, and a Space Marine Captain would probably win a fight with one most of them time, but Warlord 3s are rare and nigh-unstoppable monsters that often kill high ranking Space Marines in the books. Doubly confusing when "Warboss" and "Warlord" often get used interchangeably.
In terms of Prime-orks vs Primarchs
Spoiler:
Vulkan knew he couldn't beat The Beast in a straight-up fight
I think Ghazzy is supposed to be somewhere in between Warlord 3 and Prime-ork, but I don't really know.
Insectum7 wrote:That's interesting. . . in a pretty recent thread you seem to be arguing the opposite:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: . . . Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
So like, which is it? Ghaz being nearly The Beast, and the grand architect of Armageddon, an event you recently argued was as important as The Great Rift? . . . or . . . Ghaz the "big Warboss" who just gets beheaded by a named Space Marine captain?
Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
As for the rest, I'm talking about Armageddon, not Ghaz in particular. If I recall correctly, Ghaz isn't even AT Armageddon at the time of the Great Rift, having been chased off by Helbrecht and gone to the Octarius Sector. So, moot point.
But nice digging.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines.
No, he's not. He's the Calgar or Dante or Creed or Azrael of the Orks, and always has been. And you know what, that's okay - that's still SUPER incredibly influential - but it's not the Beast.
Guilliman is on the same tier as the Beast.
We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
You're still wrong. Ghaz isn't Guilliman. He's a Calgar, looking to become a Guilliman, but isn't there yet.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
You'd be right with Grimnar and Ghaz being on the same level, yes. But, more importantly, the gap between a 'Ragnar' and 'Grimnar' is smaller than that between a 'Grimnar' and 'Russ'. I'm largely of the opinion that characters of one tier lower can stand against characters of the tier above - ie, someone like Ragnar could be a match for Calgar, or Typhus. Especially someone with Ragnar's reputation and long history in the actual RL game itself.
Again, don't get me wrong, I don't think Orks should be a punching bag, and Ghaz *should* be on the Beast's tier by now - but he's not there yet.
Until then, he's on Calgar/Grimnar tier, in my eyes.
You seem conflicted and confused.
You agree that GW should have made Ghaz' a 'Beast' by now yet believe it's fine that Ragnar decapitates him because he isn't? Which is it? I also think Ghaz' should be a 'Beast', which is exactly why I'm disappointed he gets mugged by Ragnar who isn't of the same level.
Sounds like you don't think Ghaz' should be a credible threat (aka Beast') to me, otherwise you wouldn't be defending Ragnar cutting his swede off. Or do you think Ghaz' should win round 2? That he should be beasted up by then?
It is very simple - there is a difference between how Smudge thinks Ghaz should be presented (i.e., a "Beast"/Prime-Ork-nonsense) and how GWare currently presenting Ghaz (at the roughly Chapter Master tier, as Smudge perceives it).
Insectum7 wrote:That's interesting. . . in a pretty recent thread you seem to be arguing the opposite:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: . . . Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
So like, which is it? Ghaz being nearly The Beast, and the grand architect of Armageddon, an event you recently argued was as important as The Great Rift? . . . or . . . Ghaz the "big Warboss" who just gets beheaded by a named Space Marine captain?
Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
As for the rest, I'm talking about Armageddon, not Ghaz in particular. If I recall correctly, Ghaz isn't even AT Armageddon at the time of the Great Rift, having been chased off by Helbrecht and gone to the Octarius Sector. So, moot point.
But nice digging.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines.
No, he's not. He's the Calgar or Dante or Creed or Azrael of the Orks, and always has been. And you know what, that's okay - that's still SUPER incredibly influential - but it's not the Beast.
Guilliman is on the same tier as the Beast.
We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
You're still wrong. Ghaz isn't Guilliman. He's a Calgar, looking to become a Guilliman, but isn't there yet.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
You'd be right with Grimnar and Ghaz being on the same level, yes. But, more importantly, the gap between a 'Ragnar' and 'Grimnar' is smaller than that between a 'Grimnar' and 'Russ'. I'm largely of the opinion that characters of one tier lower can stand against characters of the tier above - ie, someone like Ragnar could be a match for Calgar, or Typhus. Especially someone with Ragnar's reputation and long history in the actual RL game itself.
Again, don't get me wrong, I don't think Orks should be a punching bag, and Ghaz *should* be on the Beast's tier by now - but he's not there yet.
Until then, he's on Calgar/Grimnar tier, in my eyes.
You seem conflicted and confused.
You agree that GW should have made Ghaz' a 'Beast' by now yet believe it's fine that Ragnar decapitates him because he isn't? Which is it? I also think Ghaz' should be a 'Beast', which is exactly why I'm disappointed he gets mugged by Ragnar who isn't of the same level.
Sounds like you don't think Ghaz' should be a credible threat (aka Beast') to me, otherwise you wouldn't be defending Ragnar cutting his swede off. Or do you think Ghaz' should win round 2? That he should be beasted up by then?
It is very simple - there is a difference between how Smudge thinks Ghaz should be presented (i.e., a "Beast"/Prime-Ork-nonsense) and how GWare currently presenting Ghaz (at the roughly Chapter Master tier, as Smudge perceives it).
Hardly rokkit science, AAE.
Yes I understand the principle and this is exactly how I feel. The difference is I'm disappointed GW have brought Ghaz' a peg down and now represent him as CM level (he was always presented as stronger previously, see Dakka Dakka Flame's very useful post on Warlords and Warbosses above for reference) while Smudge seems perfectly content to accept how GW are now presenting Ghaz', which is in direct opposition to the claim 'I think Ghaz' should be beast tier by now'?
Rokkit science is much easier to understand - big pointy end goes boom! Hit fings wiv dat!
Edit - Nazdreg still exists in the lore, he introduced Ghazzy to the Tellyporta tech and they are somewhat allies. Obviously no model because xenos don't get all their character models.
keep in mind until, basicly the beginning of 7th edition, chapter master level was basicly tops. Primarchs wheren't a thing, also if Ghaz was raised to primarch level, it'd mean he'd become a Lord of war.
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind until, basicly the beginning of 7th edition, chapter master level was basicly tops. Primarchs wheren't a thing, also if Ghaz was raised to primarch level, it'd mean he'd become a Lord of war.
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind until, basicly the beginning of 7th edition, chapter master level was basicly tops. Primarchs wheren't a thing, also if Ghaz was raised to primarch level, it'd mean he'd become a Lord of war.
He was a lord of war in 7th wasn't he?
So was Calgar Dante and Logan
it was kinda annoying as it meant if you had an army that had been legel in 6th or earlier with them in an HQ slot sudden;y the army was illegal because you needed another HQ
Animus wrote: As to not finishing him, Calgar was was essentially dead, only reviving after Abaddon had gone.
And why didn't Abaddon take the approx 2 seconds it'd take to actually get the job done and kill Calgar for sure? The genius tactician and warmaster of Chaos didn't think to finish off his opponent? Seems.....odd..?
Abaddon understands that strong recognizable characters are essential to the survival of any fictional franchise and acted accordingly.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Christ.. more childish lore from GW.. 'I got you first..no! it was the the same time so were both dead'..sounds like kids when theyre playing... they need to do a game of thrones and actually kill some characters off... and not just magical ones who come back cough saint cough... that just makes any storyline super boring.
Or maybe forget the idea of storyline and go back to how 40k has been for decades. Setting.
They dont' risk sales of dead character being hurt
Insectum7 wrote:That's interesting. . . in a pretty recent thread you seem to be arguing the opposite:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: . . . Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
So like, which is it? Ghaz being nearly The Beast, and the grand architect of Armageddon, an event you recently argued was as important as The Great Rift? . . . or . . . Ghaz the "big Warboss" who just gets beheaded by a named Space Marine captain?
Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
As for the rest, I'm talking about Armageddon, not Ghaz in particular. If I recall correctly, Ghaz isn't even AT Armageddon at the time of the Great Rift, having been chased off by Helbrecht and gone to the Octarius Sector. So, moot point.
But nice digging.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines.
No, he's not. He's the Calgar or Dante or Creed or Azrael of the Orks, and always has been. And you know what, that's okay - that's still SUPER incredibly influential - but it's not the Beast.
Guilliman is on the same tier as the Beast.
We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
You're still wrong. Ghaz isn't Guilliman. He's a Calgar, looking to become a Guilliman, but isn't there yet.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
You'd be right with Grimnar and Ghaz being on the same level, yes. But, more importantly, the gap between a 'Ragnar' and 'Grimnar' is smaller than that between a 'Grimnar' and 'Russ'. I'm largely of the opinion that characters of one tier lower can stand against characters of the tier above - ie, someone like Ragnar could be a match for Calgar, or Typhus. Especially someone with Ragnar's reputation and long history in the actual RL game itself.
Again, don't get me wrong, I don't think Orks should be a punching bag, and Ghaz *should* be on the Beast's tier by now - but he's not there yet.
Until then, he's on Calgar/Grimnar tier, in my eyes.
You seem conflicted and confused.
You agree that GW should have made Ghaz' a 'Beast' by now yet believe it's fine that Ragnar decapitates him because he isn't? Which is it? I also think Ghaz' should be a 'Beast', which is exactly why I'm disappointed he gets mugged by Ragnar who isn't of the same level.
Sounds like you don't think Ghaz' should be a credible threat (aka Beast') to me, otherwise you wouldn't be defending Ragnar cutting his swede off. Or do you think Ghaz' should win round 2? That he should be beasted up by then?
It is very simple - there is a difference between how Smudge thinks Ghaz should be presented (i.e., a "Beast"/Prime-Ork-nonsense) and how GWare currently presenting Ghaz (at the roughly Chapter Master tier, as Smudge perceives it).
Hardly rokkit science, AAE.
Yes I understand the principle and this is exactly how I feel. The difference is I'm disappointed GW have brought Ghaz' a peg down and now represent him as CM level (he was always presented as stronger previously, see Dakka Dakka Flame's very useful post on Warlords and Warbosses above for reference) while Smudge seems perfectly content to accept how GW are now presenting Ghaz', which is in direct opposition to the claim 'I think Ghaz' should be beast tier by now'?
I think Smudge may just be further along the 5 Stages than you've gotten so far - you still seem to be on Anger, while he has made it to Acceptance.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Rokkit science is much easier to understand - big pointy end goes boom! Hit fings wiv dat!
For Orks, it is often the simple fings in life.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Edit - Nazdreg still exists in the lore, he introduced Ghazzy to the Tellyporta tech and they are somewhat allies. Obviously no model because xenos don't get all their character models.
Well, I know he had at least one model in the past, which tied in to the Mega-Armour that was released in 2nd edition - I wonder why he never got updated. It doesn't help that 40k Wiki and Lexicanum seem to be showing a conversion as his model, rather than his actual model (with the power claw giving a high five...)
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind until, basicly the beginning of 7th edition, chapter master level was basicly tops. Primarchs wheren't a thing, also if Ghaz was raised to primarch level, it'd mean he'd become a Lord of war.
Animus wrote: As to not finishing him, Calgar was was essentially dead, only reviving after Abaddon had gone.
And why didn't Abaddon take the approx 2 seconds it'd take to actually get the job done and kill Calgar for sure? The genius tactician and warmaster of Chaos didn't think to finish off his opponent? Seems.....odd..?
Abaddon understands that strong recognizable characters are essential to the survival of any fictional franchise and acted accordingly.
Calgar? As in Marneus "serves no purpose now Daddy's back" Calgar? Really?
I'm sure there are a few that will disagree with me, but I honestly believe that given the setting as it is now, Calgar's death would have a much more positive impact on the playerbase (and hence the survival of the franchise) than his continued survival. Again, from what I gather the fact that he survived his duel with Abaddon didn't go down well in any community excluding perhaps the Ultramarine players.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dysartes wrote: I think Smudge may just be further along the 5 Stages than you've gotten so far - you still seem to be on Anger, while he has made it to Acceptance.
Fair enough, if that is the case I understand. I'm sure, in time, these wounds will heal *Cry me a river plays in the background
For Orks, it is ALWAYS the simple fings in life.
Corrected, git!
Well, I know he had at least one model in the past, which tied in to the Mega-Armour that was released in 2nd edition - I wonder why he never got updated. It doesn't help that 40k Wiki and Lexicanum seem to be showing a conversion as his model, rather than his actual model (with the power claw giving a high five...)
Yea that's right, he hasn't seen a new model since the high fiving bad boy of 2nd ed.
I guess you could say.....he got the Dregs of the development time?
An Actual Englishman wrote:You seem conflicted and confused.
You agree that GW should have made Ghaz' a 'Beast' by now yet believe it's fine that Ragnar decapitates him because he isn't? Which is it? I also think Ghaz' should be a 'Beast', which is exactly why I'm disappointed he gets mugged by Ragnar who isn't of the same level.
Sounds like you don't think Ghaz' should be a credible threat (aka Beast') to me, otherwise you wouldn't be defending Ragnar cutting his swede off. Or do you think Ghaz' should win round 2? That he should be beasted up by then?
As Dystartes says:
Dysartes wrote:It is very simple - there is a difference between how Smudge thinks Ghaz should be presented (i.e., a "Beast"/Prime-Ork-nonsense) and how GWare currently presenting Ghaz (at the roughly Chapter Master tier, as Smudge perceives it).
Hardly rokkit science, AAE.
Ding ding ding, got it in one. AAE, you phrase the first sentence like it's mutually exclusive. It isn't. I want Ghaz to be on The Beast tier, but the fact is that right now, he isn't. Therefore, him being defeated in melee combat by a rather famous, rather iconic hero (and it's less defeated, more a draw to the death), doesn't really rustle me.
Trust me, if Ghaz had been at Beast stage, I would share the sentiment that Ragnar shouldn't have beaten him. But that's not what happened.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:We don't really know the details of how the fight goes down. The writer could do a good job, or a bad job, it's hard to know until we actually get to read it.
Very true. As we've seen with the explanations of Primaris, the shorthand explanation is very different to the actual truth of the matter.
When it comes to Ragnar vs Ghazzy, it's true that Ragnar isn't just some Captain. He's one of the most skilled Space Marines out there. Also, Space Marines choose their officers based on their ability to lead, not just their ability to fight. I wouldn't be surprised if in most Chapters their most skilled fighter wasn't the Chapter Master or even one of the captains.
I wish I saw more of this - I've never really gotten why the Chapter Master is always the toughest, strongest Marine in the Chapter - I know on tabletop that GW believe in "more senior = more strong", but in the lore/special characters, I wouldn't mind seeing someone like a Captain or even Chapter Champion be the most skilled fighter. Realistically, the Champion really SHOULD be the best fighter!
One thing I want to mention is that "Warboss" is often used to cover a lot of different orks that differ greatly in power.
Spoiler:
Codexes, campaign books and such don't always line up in terms of terminology, and there's also the issue of them often being written from the Imperial perspective using Imperial designations. Also I imagine orks themselves don't particularly care about conforming to any sort of formal nomenclature or organization (other than maybe those weirdo Blood Axes ).
This is what I've gathered from reading a bunch of the ork stuff over the years: Big Boss - roughly equivalent to an ork lieutenant (hasn't had rules since early 3rd) Warboss - leader of a Warband, which is usually said to be a hundred or so orks Warlord -this is where it gets confusing because it seems to be a term with no upper limit, but I'd divide it up into three categories for our purposes *Warlord 1 - leader of an ork Tribe, which is sometimes defined as "a few hundred to a few thousand orks" and sometimes as all the orks in a specific region *Warlord 2 - an ork Warlord who has united many tribes (at least one planet) under his rule and is either leading a Waaagh! or about to launch one. *Warlord 3 - an ork Warlord leading an especially large Waaagh! or the leader of one of the large ork empires (Snagrod, Nazdreg, etc.) Primeork - the biggest orks in history, such as The Beast from The Beast Arises
Note: The Armageddon campaign books had somewhat different takes on the terms. Codex: Armageddon had a Warband as 300 - 3000 orks IIRC (I'd need to dig it out to confirm) which is more analogous to a Tribe in other sources. The Waaagh! Ghazghkull supplement had Warlords leading "Warhordes" (a term I've only seen in that book) which seemed to be about the size of tribe but they don't give specific numbers.
It's confusing because Warlord 1s are relatively common, and a Space Marine Captain would probably win a fight with one most of them time, but Warlord 3s are rare and nigh-unstoppable monsters that often kill high ranking Space Marines in the books. Doubly confusing when "Warboss" and "Warlord" often get used interchangeably.
I think Ghazzy is supposed to be somewhere in between Warlord 3 and Prime-ork, but I don't really know.
Yeah, he's definitely in that bracket, but I'd say he's still got a way to go between 3 and Prime. Realistically, he makes up his own 4th Warlord category in between the two.
And yeah, the fact that Warlords and Warbosses are used almost synonymously is very confusing, especially when there's a pretty big power gap between them! It's a catch-all term, but covers SO much. It's like if Chapter Masters, Captains and Lieutenants were all merged into one unit entry and one catch all term.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Yes I understand the principle and this is exactly how I feel. The difference is I'm disappointed GW have brought Ghaz' a peg down and now represent him as CM level (he was always presented as stronger previously, see Dakka Dakka Flame's very useful post on Warlords and Warbosses above for reference)
Was he? I always saw Ghaz as a CM equivalent, not stronger. Referencing DDF's post, the category Ghaz held I'd have called comparative to First Founding Chapter Masters (Azrael, Calgar, Grimnar, Dante, etc). So, for me, I don't feel a particular loss there.
while Smudge seems perfectly content to accept how GW are now presenting Ghaz', which is in direct opposition to the claim 'I think Ghaz' should be beast tier by now'?
Just because I want something else doesn't mean I can't accept how things are in reality. I'd like Ghaz to be a Beast. But he's not, so I should manage my expectations. But, I understand that that's just my mechanism of registering this.
Dysartes wrote:I think Smudge may just be further along the 5 Stages than you've gotten so far - you still seem to be on Anger, while he has made it to Acceptance.
Put like that, I guess that's accurate, at least on my part. Again - got it in one!
Who is "The Beast"? Is this some Horus Heresy stuff? The Warboss that strangled the Emperor (because he can't just have been a normal warboss now that we have super powered the big E and Primarchs to incredible levels...)
Da Boss wrote: Who is "The Beast"? Is this some Horus Heresy stuff? The Warboss that strangled the Emperor (because he can't just have been a normal warboss now that we have super powered the big E and Primarchs to incredible levels...)
I believe the whole "they beat each other up and killed one another" plot is actually a callback to a White Dwarf battle report where they squared off in the 90's. Wolf Lord Rho had a video on it, and I can follow the logic I suppose.
Like I said, I believe the irritation boils down to the fact that the absolute best that the Orkz can hope to field was brought to a "draw". Not by the absolute best person the Imperium has to offer, or (arguably) even the second or third best. But by one of a dozen or so Chapter Champions. That severely reduces the apparent threat of the Faction, when the absolute pinnacle of what they can offer at the moment was, essentially, beaten by a foe that is far less powerful than the best the Imperium can offer.
It'd be like G-Man being fought to a draw by, say, Grotsnik. You'd be right to feel like GW is doing wrong by your Faction and to wonder what this will mean for them in the future.
flandarz wrote: Like I said, I believe the irritation boils down to the fact that the absolute best that the Orkz can hope to field was brought to a "draw". Not by the absolute best person the Imperium has to offer, or (arguably) even the second or third best. But by one of a dozen or so Chapter Champions. That severely reduces the apparent threat of the Faction, when the absolute pinnacle of what they can offer at the moment was, essentially, beaten by a foe that is far less powerful than the best the Imperium can offer.
It'd be like G-Man being fought to a draw by, say, Grotsnik. You'd be right to feel like GW is doing wrong by your Faction and to wonder what this will mean for them in the future.
But Ghaz isn't exactly renown for his 1v1 prowess though as far as I''m aware, he's not been going around murdering chapter masters annually or anything. He's a threat because he unites the teeming masses and surviving having your head chopped off is such an impossibly unlikely thing to happen he really did do better than Ragnar in therms of plot armour.
BrianDavion wrote: if characters killed was the best lore out there people would be claiming Lord of the Rings sucked and game of thrones was the best ever...
I'd disagree...
not that I'm suggesting 40k is on par with Tolkein
No, but a universe where no named characters can die sucks more. Lotr killed off boromir, theoden, denethor etc.
An Actual Englishman wrote:while Smudge seems perfectly content to accept how GW are now presenting Ghaz', which is in direct opposition to the claim 'I think Ghaz' should be beast tier by now'?
Just because I want something else doesn't mean I can't accept how things are in reality.
I'd like Ghaz to be a Beast. But he's not, so I should manage my expectations. But, I understand that that's just my mechanism of registering this.
Dysartes wrote:I think Smudge may just be further along the 5 Stages than you've gotten so far - you still seem to be on Anger, while he has made it to Acceptance.
Put like that, I guess that's accurate, at least on my part. Again - got it in one!
You act as if we've known this for ages. It was, quite literally, revealed this Monday. Until we found out that Ghaz' got decapitated by Ragnar I don't think many people would expect Ragnar to hold Ghaz' to a draw and I think most normal people would hear that the next PA is called 'Saga of the BEAST', would read GW referring to Ghaz' as 'BEAST' continually and would make the logical assumption that he is now, well, a BEAST.
I have to be honest, it seems much more likely that you have never considered Ghaz to be the same level of the beast, either because you don't know his lore particularly well and/or you haven't been following this PA very closely.
But Ghaz isn't exactly renown for his 1v1 prowess though as far as I''m aware, he's not been going around murdering chapter masters annually or anything. He's a threat because he unites the teeming masses and surviving having your head chopped off is such an impossibly unlikely thing to happen he really did do better than Ragnar in therms of plot armour.
Ghaz absolutely was one of the top 1v1 combatants in the 41st millennium until this PAbs.
Belial? Grand Master of the Deathwing? Ghaz rekt him. Makes this rubbish lore even more bizarre.
An Actual Englishman wrote:while Smudge seems perfectly content to accept how GW are now presenting Ghaz', which is in direct opposition to the claim 'I think Ghaz' should be beast tier by now'?
Just because I want something else doesn't mean I can't accept how things are in reality.
I'd like Ghaz to be a Beast. But he's not, so I should manage my expectations. But, I understand that that's just my mechanism of registering this.
Dysartes wrote:I think Smudge may just be further along the 5 Stages than you've gotten so far - you still seem to be on Anger, while he has made it to Acceptance.
Put like that, I guess that's accurate, at least on my part. Again - got it in one!
You act as if we've known this for ages. It was, quite literally, revealed this Monday. Until we found out that Ghaz' got decapitated by Ragnar I don't think many people would expect Ragnar to hold Ghaz' to a draw and I think most normal people would hear that the next PA is called 'Saga of the BEAST', would read GW referring to Ghaz' as 'BEAST' continually and would make the logical assumption that he is now, well, a BEAST.
I have to be honest, it seems much more likely that you have never considered Ghaz to be the same level of the beast, either because you don't know his lore particularly well and/or you haven't been following this PA very closely.
But Ghaz isn't exactly renown for his 1v1 prowess though as far as I''m aware, he's not been going around murdering chapter masters annually or anything. He's a threat because he unites the teeming masses and surviving having your head chopped off is such an impossibly unlikely thing to happen he really did do better than Ragnar in therms of plot armour.
Ghaz absolutely was one of the top 1v1 combatants in the 41st millennium until this PAbs.
Belial? Grand Master of the Deathwing? Ghaz rekt him. Makes this rubbish lore even more bizarre.
Err Ragnar has banished a daemon primarch once and assisted with two more, if beating Belial is his peak this may explain things.
Considering this is GW, I imagine most of the named Space Marine characters featuring in novels are able to banish a Daemon Primarch. Can't be a bad-ass without at least doing that much. GW made that the milestone and simultaneously made Daemon Primarchs into mini-bosses.
Yeah, I mean the main problem is that there just are not enough space marines, but each one can kill a hundred orks, easily, and deck a warboss no problem.
The only problem as I say is there are not enough of them.
An Actual Englishman wrote:You act as if we've known this for ages. It was, quite literally, revealed this Monday. Until we found out that Ghaz' got decapitated by Ragnar I don't think many people would expect Ragnar to hold Ghaz' to a draw and I think most normal people would hear that the next PA is called 'Saga of the BEAST', would read GW referring to Ghaz' as 'BEAST' continually and would make the logical assumption that he is now, well, a BEAST.
It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
I have to be honest, it seems much more likely that you have never considered Ghaz to be the same level of the beast, either because you don't know his lore particularly well and/or you haven't been following this PA very closely.
I mean, by all means, jump to conclusions, but if you read what Crimson quoted me as saying earlier, I made explicit reference to Ghaz being *near* the Beast. Not that he was, but that he was still the biggest meanest Ork of his time. I've never underrated Ghaz.
I've been following this well enough, but I've not jumped to any conclusions - only expectations, which I reserve every right to lower. By all means, you can pretend what I think, but you're pretty mistaken.
Insectum7 wrote:That's interesting. . . in a pretty recent thread you seem to be arguing the opposite:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: . . . Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
So like, which is it? Ghaz being nearly The Beast, and the grand architect of Armageddon, an event you recently argued was as important as The Great Rift? . . . or . . . Ghaz the "big Warboss" who just gets beheaded by a named Space Marine captain?
Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
So *just* a Warboss who also happens to be Prophet of the Waagh on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor. That seems like a conveniently broad range.
Here is my issue. Ghaz is currently the best Ork that Orks can muster, as opposed to the thousand Chapter Masters out there, and the ten thousand Space Marine Captains out there. So how much of a threat does that make the Orks out to be?
For the record I'd like to get more context around the story. But the cliffs notes sure make it seem daft.
Insectum7 wrote:For a long time you needed your opponents permission to use special characters, so even though they were taking part in in-universe plotlines, they weren't on every table the way they are now.
They've been this way for over ten years now, at least. May have been for a long time before you needed permission, but that's not been the case for a similarly long time.
When it happened is rather beside the point.
When there's comments that start making out like this is all a new development, and how 'everything new is bad', I think it rather *is* important, if only just to stop the spread of misinformation.
Unique characters have been easily accessible in game, and popping out and about in the setting at important events for well over 10 years. That's not a "new" thing. Making comments like "for a long time..." trivialises the equally long time we've had with easily accessible heroes.
I never claimed it was a new thing. But I can certainly make a claim that after a decade of it it's become a tiring thing, and I can remember a time when the storytelling was less named-character drama centric.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Christ.. more childish lore from GW.. 'I got you first..no! it was the the same time so were both dead'..sounds like kids when theyre playing... they need to do a game of thrones and actually kill some characters off... and not just magical ones who come back cough saint cough... that just makes any storyline super boring.
They traded a stagnant timeline for an advancing timeline with unkillable characters. I agree, super boring in the long run.
Ugh, some of us liked the stagnant timeline. It added to the whole "the galaxy is so huge and everything is so spread out that nothing you do matters" hopeless grimdark feel. Now heroes bounce from warzone to warzone all across the galaxy like their taking a trip to the next town over. Everything feels smaller.
And here I thought this was a toy game played with toys on a table.
Personally, I care about the presentation of the setting. Which is not quite the same as story. Stories are an important part to the presentation of the setting though.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
No, it's a notable drop. Ragnar is no more the fighter than Belial. Ghaz handily beat Belial.
I mean, by all means, jump to conclusions, but if you read what Crimson quoted me as saying earlier, I made explicit reference to Ghaz being *near* the Beast. Not that he was, but that he was still the biggest meanest Ork of his time. I've never underrated Ghaz.
I've been following this well enough, but I've not jumped to any conclusions - only expectations, which I reserve every right to lower. By all means, you can pretend what I think, but you're pretty mistaken.
If Ghaz was "near" the Beast Ragnar wouldn't have a chance. You don't seem to understand your own claims. You ARE underrating him in thinking that this Ragnar bs is normal. As has been said now countless times, Ghaz is THE TOP ORK, there is no Ork greater. Ragnar isn't even the fething top Space Wolf. They aren't (nor should they be) equals.
Why am I even discussing this with you? Your picture and your dakka title of "Venerable Ultramarine Dreadnought" makes it pretty clear where your loyalty lies. It's no wonder you think this is normal.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Christ.. more childish lore from GW.. 'I got you first..no! it was the the same time so were both dead'..sounds like kids when theyre playing... they need to do a game of thrones and actually kill some characters off... and not just magical ones who come back cough saint cough... that just makes any storyline super boring.
They traded a stagnant timeline for an advancing timeline with unkillable characters. I agree, super boring in the long run.
Ugh, some of us liked the stagnant timeline. It added to the whole "the galaxy is so huge and everything is so spread out that nothing you do matters" hopeless grimdark feel. Now heroes bounce from warzone to warzone all across the galaxy like their taking a trip to the next town over. Everything feels smaller.
And here I thought this was a toy game played with toys on a table.
Do people actually care about the "story" at all?
Hmmmmm I wonder, if only there were books themed around Warhammer whose success we could use as a measure of "how important the story is to people". Man wouldn't that be a thing? I wonder what it would be called? The Dark Museum? The Shrouded Study?
Dudeface wrote: Err Ragnar has banished a daemon primarch once and assisted with two more, if beating Belial is his peak this may explain things.
He banished who now?
He banished Magnus but it's more he ran into a Chaos Ritual, grabbed the Spear of Russ and yeeted it into the opening portal than he actually beat a Primarch.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
No, it's a notable drop. Ragnar is no more the fighter than Belial. Ghaz handily beat Belial.
Who is to say Ragnar couldn't also defeat Belial? Ragnar has some pretty decent feats under his belt as well as (historically at least) having reflexes beyond that of other Space Marines.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I mean, by all means, jump to conclusions, but if you read what Crimson quoted me as saying earlier, I made explicit reference to Ghaz being *near* the Beast. Not that he was, but that he was still the biggest meanest Ork of his time. I've never underrated Ghaz.
I've been following this well enough, but I've not jumped to any conclusions - only expectations, which I reserve every right to lower. By all means, you can pretend what I think, but you're pretty mistaken.
If Ghaz was "near" the Beast Ragnar wouldn't have a chance. You don't seem to understand your own claims. You ARE underrating him in thinking that this Ragnar bs is normal. As has been said now countless times, Ghaz is THE TOP ORK, there is no Ork greater. Ragnar isn't even the fething top Space Wolf. They aren't (nor should they be) equals.
Why am I even discussing this with you? Your picture and your dakka title of "Venerable Ultramarine Dreadnought" makes it pretty clear where your loyalty lies. It's no wonder you think this is normal.
Could the same bias not also be said of yourself and your own Avatar?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
So *just* a Warboss who also happens to be Prophet of the Waagh on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor. That seems like a conveniently broad range.
Did you miss my sarcasm with the amount of """""" around my 'just'? Ghazghskull is a Warboss. Ragnar is a Space Marine Captain, Yarrick is a Commissar. But they're way way more than just that - all incredibly storied, all notable, all unique from their fellows of the same rank/station. But it doesn't mean that Ghaz IS a Prime-Ork, or Ragnar IS a Chapter Master, or Yarrick IS a Lord General Militant. So yeah - you're absolutely right about a broad range.
Here is my issue. Ghaz is currently the best Ork that Orks can muster, as opposed to the thousand Chapter Masters out there, and the ten thousand Space Marine Captains out there. So how much of a threat does that make the Orks out to be?
In my honest opinion? The vast majority of Ork Warbosses are pretty killable for a Space Marine Captain. But, the range of how powerful an Ork Warboss can be is the real factor, and how many Ork Warbosses there are. Sure, there might be ten thousand Space Marine Captains. But there's probably several thousand times more Warbosses - the vast majority who are, as I said, killable for Captains. The threat of Orks, like GSC or suchlike, isn't that their heroes are the toughest around. It's that there are so many of them, and are still a threat, even if they're weaker.
Ghaz is the biggest Ork out there, but it doesn't make him invulnerable, nor does that really explain why he's important. He's not important because he smashes the hardest. He's important because he's the most charismatic (in an Orky term), he's the most strategically gifted, and he's the most kunnin'. And, let's be honest, he wasn't going up against a normal Space Marine Captain - it was a named character with just as much history (well, close enough at least) as him.
I never claimed it was a new thing. But I can certainly make a claim that after a decade of it it's become a tiring thing, and I can remember a time when the storytelling was less named-character drama centric.
Then say that, instead of "for a long time", because that implies validity from duration, which the current situation could also claim. No issue with your preference being just that, but the appeal to "it's been like this for a long time" cuts both ways. In my experience, 40k is just as named-character centric was it always has been, in my experience, so I'm fine with it - and it's hardly like I'm new.
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
No, it's a notable drop. Ragnar is no more the fighter than Belial. Ghaz handily beat Belial.
Under potentially much difference circumstances - and you act like Ghaz also didn't beat Ragnar far more than he did Belial. Ragnar seems he'd only survive through the Rubicon - Belial got better (speaking of, why am I not hearing complaints about 'he should have diiiiiied' about that?)
Plus, are we saying that Calgar shouldn't have lost to the Swarmlord, because he killed an Avatar of Khaine, by that same logic?
If Ghaz was "near" the Beast Ragnar wouldn't have a chance.
Allow me to amend - "nearest" - which is what I meant anyways, what with him being most influential Ork of his time.
You don't seem to understand your own claims. You ARE underrating him in thinking that this Ragnar bs is normal. As has been said now countless times, Ghaz is THE TOP ORK, there is no Ork greater.
*the top Ork at the present. He's not the Beast, he's not a Prime-Ork, he's not even the Warboss at Ullanor. He's certainly the top Ork of his day, but that doesn't mean he's immortal or invulnerable.
Ragnar isn't even the top Space Wolf. They aren't (nor should they be) equals.
As I said, I compare Ghaz to Calgar, to Dante, to Grimnar, and suchlike. And if Ragnar got a mutual kill on Calgar, I'd be fine with that, because the power levels aren't exactly leagues apart. I'm okay with slight underdogs - especially when it results in a mutual kill. If Ragnar had one and didn't essentially die, I'd be all for saying this was improper. But that didn't happen.
Why am I even discussing this with you?
Beats me, feel free to walk away.
Your picture and your dakka title of "Venerable Ultramarine Dreadnought" makes it pretty clear where your loyalty lies. It's no wonder you think this is normal.
Ah yes, because, famously, you can gather all you possibly need to know about someone from the random banner and profile picture they have. Here's a novel idea, perhaps deal with the content of my argument instead?
I might be an Ultramarine player predominantly, but I'd rather have Orks than Space Wolves. But hey, I guess I'm deluded as to my own beliefs because some rando says so.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
No, it's a notable drop. Ragnar is no more the fighter than Belial. Ghaz handily beat Belial.
Who is to say Ragnar couldn't also defeat Belial? Ragnar has some pretty decent feats under his belt as well as (historically at least) having reflexes beyond that of other Space Marines.
Hell, I'd be fine with Ragnar beating Calgar - and that's coming from an Ultramarine player who really isn't fond on the Wolves.
Could the same bias not also be said of yourself and your own Avatar?
Shhhhhh, self-awareness isn't something Orks are known for.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
So *just* a Warboss who also happens to be Prophet of the Waagh on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor. That seems like a conveniently broad range.
Did you miss my sarcasm with the amount of """""" around my 'just'? Ghazghskull is a Warboss. Ragnar is a Space Marine Captain, Yarrick is a Commissar. But they're way way more than just that - all incredibly storied, all notable, all unique from their fellows of the same rank/station. But it doesn't mean that Ghaz IS a Prime-Ork, or Ragnar IS a Chapter Master, or Yarrick IS a Lord General Militant.
So yeah - you're absolutely right about a broad range.
Here is my issue. Ghaz is currently the best Ork that Orks can muster, as opposed to the thousand Chapter Masters out there, and the ten thousand Space Marine Captains out there. So how much of a threat does that make the Orks out to be?
In my honest opinion? The vast majority of Ork Warbosses are pretty killable for a Space Marine Captain. But, the range of how powerful an Ork Warboss can be is the real factor, and how many Ork Warbosses there are. Sure, there might be ten thousand Space Marine Captains. But there's probably several thousand times more Warbosses - the vast majority who are, as I said, killable for Captains. The threat of Orks, like GSC or suchlike, isn't that their heroes are the toughest around. It's that there are so many of them, and are still a threat, even if they're weaker.
But Ghaz is not weaker.
Heck, Warbosses in general aren't weaker, just looking at their stats.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ghaz is the biggest Ork out there, but it doesn't make him invulnerable, nor does that really explain why he's important. He's not important because he smashes the hardest. He's important because he's the most charismatic (in an Orky term), he's the most strategically gifted, and he's the most kunnin'. And, let's be honest, he wasn't going up against a normal Space Marine Captain - it was a named character with just as much history (well, close enough at least) as him.
Normally I'm all on board with "size doesn't equate to importance", but we're talking about Orks. It's actually their biology. Size is literally an expression of importance/authority/Gork-Morkiness. Particularly in the Goff clan, the authority goes to the Ork who smashes the hardest, and I'm pretty sure more authority just makes an Ork smash even harder.
I never claimed it was a new thing. But I can certainly make a claim that after a decade of it it's become a tiring thing, and I can remember a time when the storytelling was less named-character drama centric.
Then say that, instead of "for a long time", because that implies validity from duration, which the current situation could also claim.
No issue with your preference being just that, but the appeal to "it's been like this for a long time" cuts both ways.
In my experience, 40k is just as named-character centric was it always has been, in my experience, so I'm fine with it - and it's hardly like I'm new.
My claim isn't at all using history as a form of authority. I'm simply making an observation that there is a difference in the way the stories are handled, then vs. now.
Dudeface wrote: Err Ragnar has banished a daemon primarch once and assisted with two more, if beating Belial is his peak this may explain things.
He banished who now?
He banished Magnus but it's more he ran into a Chaos Ritual, grabbed the Spear of Russ and yeeted it into the opening portal than he actually beat a Primarch.
Yea, that was my understanding also. He didn't banish him. He closed the portal Magnus was going to walk through. Not really the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DivineVisitor wrote: Could the same bias not also be said of yourself and your own Avatar?
Absolutely, but I don't claim to be unbiased.
For me, as an Ork player, there is no logical justification for the double KO. That said context is a thing. If Ghaz is gloating over a *presumed dead* Ragnar and Ragnar manages a last desperate strike to behead Ghaz before keeling over, well, that's something I can get behind.
Yes, he isn't weaker. I'd say he's on par with characters like Calgar and such.
I would also be fine with Ragnar being able to take out characters on par with Calgar. There's no kind of special treatment here.
Heck, Warbosses in general aren't weaker, just looking at their stats.
I'm not really sure how far I'd rate stats, given how subject to change they can be, but I see your point. However, by that same "stat" logic, Ragnar is capable of killing Ghaz - hell, even a mutual kill is possible via stratagems!
Normally I'm all on board with "size doesn't equate to importance", but we're talking about Orks. It's actually their biology. Size is literally an expression of importance/authority/Gork-Morkiness. Particularly in the Goff clan, the authority goes to the Ork who smashes the hardest, and I'm pretty sure more authority just makes an Ork smash even harder.
Yes, and Ghaz *is* the biggest around at the moment. He's still not Prime-Ork level yet, and I'd say he's at Calgar level, physically, politically, far more important though.
My claim isn't at all using history as a form of authority. I'm simply making an observation that there is a difference in the way the stories are handled, then vs. now.
Again, "then and now" - my idea of "then" is hardly any different to "now" - it's not like the current stuff is a newfangled thing that's only just cropped up since 8th, this has been a thing for several editions now.
I'm not disputing it *was* different, but I'm saying that it's been a pretty long time since it last was like that.
So when did you start 40K?
End of 4th, start of 5th, but started reading and collecting before I played, and had a 3rd Edition SM Codex hand-me-down before I picked up the proper one. In my experience, the fluff isn't all too different from when it was when I started, and that's what, over a dozen years ago?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
An Actual Englishman wrote: For me, as an Ork player, there is no logical justification for the double KO. That said context is a thing. If Ghaz is gloating over a *presumed dead* Ragnar and Ragnar manages a last desperate strike to behead Ghaz before keeling over, well, that's something I can get behind.
Exactly: context. I'm pretty sure that, like with a lot of GW's current story beats, the brief sounds a lot worse than the actual events, and the event you describe (Ghaz standing over a presumed dead Ragnar) is most likely what's going to happen, cliche as it is.
I doubt Ragnar is even in the top 50 for "best combatants" in the Imperium (cuz, ya know, Custodes exist). Meanwhile, Ghaz is the most powerful (current) member of a race that was literally designed for combat. I don't have an issue with Space Marines mowing down Boyz by the planetload. I don't even have an issue with Captains or Masters slapping around the odd Warboss from time to time. But it's frustrating to know that the best the Ork race has to offer was matched by one of a Space Marine Captain (even one as storied as Ragnar), who is lower on the totem pole than at least hundreds of other individuals in the Imperium. It creates a question where you have to ask "if Ragnar can take Ghaz to a draw, and the Imperium considers Ghaz to be a threat, why don't they just take like... half of the Wolves and just eliminate him?" It makes you wonder why the Imperium even considers Orkz to be any more than pests.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: yeah. If GW pulls out a "Ghaz whupped his butt and Ragnar snuck in a slash during the typical Ork gloating period" I can get behind this. I just don't expect it to happen, because GW has always shown itself to favor Marines in the fluff.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
No, it's a notable drop. Ragnar is no more the fighter than Belial. Ghaz handily beat Belial.
Under potentially much difference circumstances - and you act like Ghaz also didn't beat Ragnar far more than he did Belial. Ragnar seems he'd only survive through the Rubicon - Belial got better (speaking of, why am I not hearing complaints about 'he should have diiiiiied' about that?)
Plus, are we saying that Calgar shouldn't have lost to the Swarmlord, because he killed an Avatar of Khaine, by that same logic?
1. Calgar ultimately beat Swarmlord.
2. Leaps of logic don't help this discussion.
You don't seem to understand your own claims. You ARE underrating him in thinking that this Ragnar bs is normal. As has been said now countless times, Ghaz is THE TOP ORK, there is no Ork greater.
*the top Ork at the present. He's not the Beast, he's not a Prime-Ork, he's not even the Warboss at Ullanor. He's certainly the top Ork of his day, but that doesn't mean he's immortal or invulnerable.
Your points are utterly irrelevant. Ghaz is THE TOP ORK. As has been stated, like tens of times now, the TOP ORK should not get beheaded to the third (?) Space Wolf. It cheapens him as a character.
You like Ultramarines by the looks. Imagine the number 2 or 3 Ork (Wazzdakka or Nazdreg, probably) fighting with him to a draw. Would you be happy with that? No. Of course you wouldn't.
Ragnar isn't even the top Space Wolf. They aren't (nor should they be) equals.
As I said, I compare Ghaz to Calgar, to Dante, to Grimnar, and suchlike. And if Ragnar got a mutual kill on Calgar, I'd be fine with that, because the power levels aren't exactly leagues apart. I'm okay with slight underdogs - especially when it results in a mutual kill. If Ragnar had one and didn't essentially die, I'd be all for saying this was improper. But that didn't happen.
Why do you keep comparing the TOP ORK to a number 2 of other factions? This is disingenuous. Ghaz IS our Guilliman. He is above Calgar and Grimnar because they are not the top player in their respective factions. Dante is the top Blood Angel, so he is of equal standing, IMO (unless Sanguinius returns).
Why am I even discussing this with you?
Beats me, feel free to walk away.
Your picture and your dakka title of "Venerable Ultramarine Dreadnought" makes it pretty clear where your loyalty lies. It's no wonder you think this is normal.
Ah yes, because, famously, you can gather all you possibly need to know about someone from the random banner and profile picture they have. Here's a novel idea, perhaps deal with the content of my argument instead?
Your argument has no real point. You keep claiming "I'm OK with this" and that's about as far as it goes. Good for you. I'm not surprised because you clearly have a preference for Marines. You also keep acting as if I should have known this all along, as if GW haven't been painting Ghaz as more than Ragnar (by continually referring to him as the Beast, the only Primeork we know of to date) and as if Ghaz hasn't consistently beaten characters on Ragnar's level multiple times even before he was given this nomenclature.
I might be an Ultramarine player predominantly, but I'd rather have Orks than Space Wolves. But hey, I guess I'm deluded as to my own beliefs because some rando says so.
You have proven your bias with your own claims. I don't believe you know much about Ghaz's lore, or about what he represents for the faction, by your statements throughout this thread. So in that respect, you are absolutely deluded.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
No, it's a notable drop. Ragnar is no more the fighter than Belial. Ghaz handily beat Belial.
Who is to say Ragnar couldn't also defeat Belial? Ragnar has some pretty decent feats under his belt as well as (historically at least) having reflexes beyond that of other Space Marines.
Hell, I'd be fine with Ragnar beating Calgar - and that's coming from an Ultramarine player who really isn't fond on the Wolves.
Damn, that's coming "from an Ultramarine player who really isn't fond of the Wolves"? Well I guess that proves everything! Such objectivity! I am undone! I don't think. Would you have Ragnar draw with Guilliman? Because that's exactly what this is.
Could the same bias not also be said of yourself and your own Avatar?
Shhhhhh, self-awareness isn't something Orks are known for.
Ah the ad hominems. And you were doing so well! Kinda. Not really.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I'd rather have characters being killed off than ones that can't die, with only minor filler fodder characters dying. its not like you cant still have and use their miniatures. LOTRSBG manages it fine.
thats also why I like the heresy.. people are actually able to die. makes a much more interesting story.
In addition, if they killed off characters we would also get to see all kinds of new interesting characters and miniatures. I'd rather see new miniatures for my armies than have 5 different sculpts of the same characters.
flandarz wrote: I doubt Ragnar is even in the top 50 for "best combatants" in the Imperium (cuz, ya know, Custodes exist). Meanwhile, Ghaz is the most powerful (current) member of a race that was literally designed for combat. I don't have an issue with Space Marines mowing down Boyz by the planetload. I don't even have an issue with Captains or Masters slapping around the odd Warboss from time to time. But it's frustrating to know that the best the Ork race has to offer was matched by one of a Space Marine Captain (even one as storied as Ragnar), who is lower on the totem pole than at least hundreds of other individuals in the Imperium. It creates a question where you have to ask "if Ragnar can take Ghaz to a draw, and the Imperium considers Ghaz to be a threat, why don't they just take like... half of the Wolves and just eliminate him?" It makes you wonder why the Imperium even considers Orkz to be any more than pests.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: yeah. If GW pulls out a "Ghaz whupped his butt and Ragnar snuck in a slash during the typical Ork gloating period" I can get behind this. I just don't expect it to happen, because GW has always shown itself to favor Marines in the fluff.
The Orks suffer heavily from the problem that all 40k villains suffer from. GW wants to show that Imperial character X is a total badass. The best way of showing this is by having him beat up one of the big, scary powerful villains. But there are so many Imperial characters that the villains end up losing much more than they ever win, which makes us wonder why the villain is even considered a credible threat. Chaos also suffers from it really bad. A lot of daemons and CSM characters only show up in the fluff to get beaten by whoever the hero of the story happens to be. There just aren't enough novels and such that feature Ghazghkull or other Orks as protagonists and show them beating up Space Marines.
I'll try to illustrate the difference of "then and now" with some notable lore from the time.
1st Edition/ Rogue trader: 40K Compilation, Eldar vs. Slaaneshi forces. Two incarnations of gods meet in the field. The Avatar kills the Keeper of Secrets. Unnamed hero vs. unnamed hero, one emerges victorius. And entire page of that story is dedicated to a mournful aftermath. Eldar crying for lost ones, pitying their human cultist enemies who are dead, etc.
2nd Edition: IcharIV, Marneus commands a fleet in defense of Ultramar. There's no Swarmlord in the lore at all. Marneus spends his time as a commander. . . well . . . commanding. A named character in the codex, Invictus, himself dies in the battle against countless hordes defending the fortress of Macragge.
2nd Edition: 2nd Armageddon War. Yarrick beheads a Warboss after losing his arm. (named in the story but it's not like a model you can play). Yarrick becomes an inspiration to his troops and goes on to lead the defence of Hades Hive. They lose Hades Hive, but Ghazgull and Yarrick never meet, because they're spending their time commanding forces over a huge war zone. Blood Angels show up and Ghaz has to withdraw.
3rd Edition: 3rd Armageddon War. Huge forces on either side. to my knowledge no major named character ever directly fights any other named character. Commanders are commanding. Lots of description is given to strategy, tactics, moves and counter moves on the world/system scale.
5th edition: Calgar punches out an Avatar. I'm sorta ok with some facts about the duel itself since the Avatar spent some time before that killing Terminators, and Terminators hit pretty hard. Fresh Calgar meets an Avatar that's already taken Powerfists/Thunderhammers and some heavy weapons fire. Calgar barely emerges victorious. How did these two wind up meeting in the middle of the fight? It's a poor set up, imo. But, named character performes heroic deed against unnamed character. Sloppy story, but the duel outcome is reasonable.
8th Edition: Ragnar Blackmane and Ghazghull somehow meet and have a duel. They both die but they both don't die!
There seems to be a template for now (and from what I can tell, much of the Horus Heresy novels), where these major characters meet, but they can't kill each other because they're named characters, and then they go on their merry way.
I think the old way works waaay better. Commanders don't meet each other for a duel, the battle is a test of resources and strategy. One side can definitively lose because one side doesn't have named characters or the named characters are forced to withdraw, etc. These commander duels where characters don't die is stupidity. Like what does the post-battle look like ? Does everybody just stop and medivac all of a sudden? The scenarios become less and less grounded/believable, etc. Things are feeling a lot more contrived.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
No, it's a notable drop. Ragnar is no more the fighter than Belial. Ghaz handily beat Belial.
Under potentially much difference circumstances - and you act like Ghaz also didn't beat Ragnar far more than he did Belial. Ragnar seems he'd only survive through the Rubicon - Belial got better (speaking of, why am I not hearing complaints about 'he should have diiiiiied' about that?)
But Belial survived without Primaris aid. Ragnar wouldn't have. It's not like Ghaz just lost his head and Ragnar didn't so much as take a scratch. They both "died".
Plus, are we saying that Calgar shouldn't have lost to the Swarmlord, because he killed an Avatar of Khaine, by that same logic?
1. Calgar ultimately beat Swarmlord.
Wait, but that implies that fighters don't always perform exactly the same in every battle?? Perhaps, no, surely not - but what if Ragnar had a particularly good day, and Ghaz had a particularly bad one? But lo, of course not, fighters can ONLY do the same thing over and over! But how would that explain Calgar losing to, and then BEATING, the Swarmlord.
Truly, a great mystery.
2. Leaps of logic don't help this discussion.
You're right. Perhaps we should both stop.
Your points are utterly irrelevant. Ghaz is THE TOP ORK.
Dante is the TOP BLOOD ANGEL. It doesn't make him Sanguinius.
As has been stated, like tens of times now, the TOP ORK should not get beheaded to the third (?) Space Wolf. It cheapens him as a character.
That's implying that Ragnar isn't also a character with a similarly long and storied past, a character who's killed Greater Daemons and suchlike.
You like Ultramarines by the looks. Imagine the number 2 or 3 Ork (Wazzdakka or Nazdreg, probably) fighting with him to a draw. Would you be happy with that? No. Of course you wouldn't.
Nazdreg getting a mutual ""kill"" on Calgar? I'm fine with that. Ooops, is that the sound of your argument falling apart?
Don't pretend you know what my beliefs are, yeah?
Your argument has no real point. You keep claiming "I'm OK with this" and that's about as far as it goes. Good for you. I'm not surprised because you clearly have a preference for Marines.
'You're not OK with this. Good for you. I'm not surprised because you clearly have a preference for Orks.' So - you're agreeing that your own argument must also have no real point, by your own logic?
You also keep acting as if I should have known this all along, as if GW haven't been painting Ghaz as more than Ragnar (by continually referring to him as the Beast, the only Primeork we know of to date) and as if Ghaz hasn't consistently beaten characters on Ragnar's level multiple times even before he was given this nomenclature.
And we've seen Ragnar beat characters on the Greater Daemon scale too. It's not like Ragnar doesn't also have his heroics behind him.
All I'm saying is that I'm looking at this from what we've been presented, not from what we both (yes, both - I'd have liked Ghaz to be a Prime-Ork by now, but that's not what we got) wanted.
I might be an Ultramarine player predominantly, but I'd rather have Orks than Space Wolves. But hey, I guess I'm deluded as to my own beliefs because some rando says so.
You have proven your bias with your own claims. I don't believe you know much about Ghaz's lore, or about what he represents for the faction, by your statements throughout this thread. So in that respect, you are absolutely deluded.
Ah yes, I forgot you were the arbitrator on biases - I should totally trust what the self-admittedly biased person says!
Hell, I'd be fine with Ragnar beating Calgar - and that's coming from an Ultramarine player who really isn't fond on the Wolves.
Damn, that's coming "from an Ultramarine player who really isn't fond of the Wolves"? Well I guess that proves everything! Such objectivity! I am undone!
And you're claiming objectivity, the self-confessed biased Ork player?
I don't think.
Well, your words, not mine.
Would you have Ragnar draw with Guilliman? Because that's exactly what this is.
It really isn't. Ghaz isn't on Guilliman tier. As you say above - "leaps of logic don't help this discussion".
Could the same bias not also be said of yourself and your own Avatar?
Shhhhhh, self-awareness isn't something Orks are known for.
Ah the ad hominems.
Sorry, I thought it was okay to make generalisations based on one's avatar? Reap what you sow, I suppose.
Again, can someone show me where ghaz is an amazing duelist and managed anything other than a fight with Belial? So far his gods had to yank him into the warp to prevent an ass whooping from Grimaldus, he fled from the Blood Angels rather than fight the good fight and that's about it so far?
Insectum7 wrote: I'll try to illustrate the difference of "then and now" with some notable lore from the time.
Spoiler:
1st Edition/ Rogue trader: 40K Compilation, Eldar vs. Slaaneshi forces. Two incarnations of gods meet in the field. The Avatar kills the Keeper of Secrets. Unnamed hero vs. unnamed hero, one emerges victorius. And entire page of that story is dedicated to a mournful aftermath. Eldar crying for lost ones, pitying their human cultist enemies who are dead, etc.
2nd Edition: IcharIV, Marneus commands a fleet in defense of Ultramar. There's no Swarmlord in the lore at all. Marneus spends his time as a commander. . . well . . . commanding. A named character in the codex, Invictus, himself dies in the battle against countless hordes defending the fortress of Macragge.
2nd Edition: 2nd Armageddon War. Yarrick beheads a Warboss after losing his arm. (named in the story but it's not like a model you can play). Yarrick becomes an inspiration to his troops and goes on to lead the defence of Hades Hive. They lose Hades Hive, but Ghazgull and Yarrick never meet, because they're spending their time commanding forces over a huge war zone. Blood Angels show up and Ghaz has to withdraw.
3rd Edition: 3rd Armageddon War. Huge forces on either side. to my knowledge no major named character ever directly fights any other named character. Commanders are commanding. Lots of description is given to strategy, tactics, moves and counter moves on the world/system scale.
5th edition: Calgar punches out an Avatar. I'm sorta ok with some facts about the duel itself since the Avatar spent some time before that killing Terminators, and Terminators hit pretty hard. Fresh Calgar meets an Avatar that's already taken Powerfists/Thunderhammers and some heavy weapons fire. Calgar barely emerges victorious. How did these two wind up meeting in the middle of the fight? It's a poor set up, imo. But, named character performes heroic deed against unnamed character. Sloppy story, but the duel outcome is reasonable.
8th Edition: Ragnar Blackmane and Ghazghull somehow meet and have a duel. They both die but they both don't die!
There seems to be a template for now (and from what I can tell, much of the Horus Heresy novels), where these major characters meet, but they can't kill each other because they're named characters, and then they go on their merry way.
Heresy definitely has the standard issues that any prequel had - ie, you see someone like Abaddon, and know that they can't die. I also think they definitely do have some cop-outs (Loken should have stayed dead IMO, and his plot arc, wherever it goes, should have been given to Qruze and Aximand, if the story goes where I think it does). However, that's not to say that prequels can't have surprises (Imperium Secundus, I think is completely new, Alpharius actually dying over Pluto, and, not a HH one, but the Imperial Fists Chapter actually being wiped out! By Orks!).
I think the old way works waaay better. Commanders don't meet each other for a duel, the battle is a test of resources and strategy.
So, Vigilus? Calgar's most notable contributions to Vigilus is his leadership and marshalling the Imperial forces present to actually work together effectively. Calgar only really engages Abaddon in order to draw him out, having wounded his pride, and potentially decapitate traitor leadership. There's actually quite a fair bit of logistical and quarantine warfare involved in Vigilus.
Again, even older battles, like the Battle of Macragge, have things like Cold Steel Ridge, which ended up as a character battle (though it may not have been named as the Swarmlord, Calgar still got beaten up in a duel). All I'm saying is that there's a mix of heroic personal combats and large scale wars on from both pre-4th and post-4th, and that it's not as simple as "the new stuff is bad". I mean, where do you draw the line of "then" and "now" - where do 4th and 5th fall in that?
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Dudeface wrote: Again, can someone show me where ghaz is an amazing duelist and managed anything other than a fight with Belial? So far his gods had to yank him into the warp to prevent an ass whooping from Grimaldus, he fled from the Blood Angels rather than fight the good fight and that's about it so far?
Happy to be illuminated.
Ooh, forgot about that! Although the Helbrecht (not Grimaldus) was in orbit, but one could still argue that him just getting to escape via Deus-Ex like that is just as "bad writing" as Ragnar beating him, no?
Even assuming Ghaz has lost far more duels than he has won (which, if you want to include every unnamed Warboss to challenge him, he probably hasn't), do you not consider it to be an issue that the top combatants of every other Faction lose duels far more often than the middle-ranked members of the Imperium? Does it not seem as though the "threats" of the universe are little more than plot devices on which to hang accolades of the Marines' victories? And this doesn't bother you in the slightest?
Also: yeah. If GW pulls out a "Ghaz whupped his butt and Ragnar snuck in a slash during the typical Ork gloating period" I can get behind this. I just don't expect it to happen, because GW has always shown itself to favor Marines in the fluff.
I actually want the near opposite. Ragnar makes a near suicidal charge, jumps in the air and aims for the head knowing is got like one shot to kill Ghaz in single combat else he would get recked. He succeed in passing throuh the guard of Ghaz and chops his head off. Then, while Ragnar is triumphant and Ghaz's horde starts to retreat in panic at the apparent death of their leader, the hedless corpse of Ghaz grabs Ragnar and smash him around Hulk style because headless orks can do that. The Doc then picks up Ghaz head to stitch it back where it belong while an apothecary does the same with the half dead Ragnar. Now Space Wolves fans can brag that one of their boy defeated Ghaz in single combat and the Ork fans can brag that a headless ork can beat the crap out of one of the best Space Marine champion out there.
flandarz wrote: Even assuming Ghaz has lost far more duels than he has won (which, if you want to include every unnamed Warboss to challenge him, he probably hasn't), do you not consider it to be an issue that the top combatants of every other Faction lose duels far more often than the middle-ranked members of the Imperium? Does it not seem as though the "threats" of the universe are little more than plot devices on which to hang accolades of the Marines' victories? And this doesn't bother you in the slightest?
In short no, because Ghaz will not single handedly end the imperium via fist fights. He's a threat because he has armies in the untold billions, all who are hard to exterminate, superior to standard humans and dedicated to destruction. Just because he can mutually batter a legendary hero to death and survive having his head chopped off, doesn't mean he's useless or that orks are not a threat.
Ghaz is known for his ability to unite the ork race and shows an uncanny tactical foresight and strategic genius. Neither of those require him to be able to beat Ragnar in a fight.
flandarz wrote: Even assuming Ghaz has lost far more duels than he has won (which, if you want to include every unnamed Warboss to challenge him, he probably hasn't), do you not consider it to be an issue that the top combatants of every other Faction lose duels far more often than the middle-ranked members of the Imperium? Does it not seem as though the "threats" of the universe are little more than plot devices on which to hang accolades of the Marines' victories? And this doesn't bother you in the slightest?
In short no, because Ghaz will not single handedly end the imperium via fist fights. He's a threat because he has armies in the untold billions, all who are hard to exterminate, superior to standard humans and dedicated to destruction. Just because he can mutually batter a legendary hero to death and survive having his head chopped off, doesn't mean he's useless or that orks are not a threat.
Ghaz is known for his ability to unite the ork race and shows an uncanny tactical foresight and strategic genius. Neither of those require him to be able to beat Ragnar in a fight.
Exactly. He's a threat because he's *smart*.
I'd actually have thought that it would be a breath of fresh air to have a leader of a stereotypically "blunt" faction to have a more strategically minded leader. I'd actually really like for Ghaz to have some really good aura and buff rules, and probably give out CP too.
I think the old way works waaay better. Commanders don't meet each other for a duel, the battle is a test of resources and strategy.
So, Vigilus? Calgar's most notable contributions to Vigilus is his leadership and marshalling the Imperial forces present to actually work together effectively. Calgar only really engages Abaddon in order to draw him out, having wounded his pride, and potentially decapitate traitor leadership. There's actually quite a fair bit of logistical and quarantine warfare involved in Vigilus.
Again, even older battles, like the Battle of Macragge, have things like Cold Steel Ridge, which ended up as a character battle (though it may not have been named as the Swarmlord, Calgar still got beaten up in a duel). All I'm saying is that there's a mix of heroic personal combats and large scale wars on from both pre-4th and post-4th, and that it's not as simple as "the new stuff is bad". I mean, where do you draw the line of "then" and "now" - where do 4th and 5th fall in that?
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Dudeface wrote: Again, can someone show me where ghaz is an amazing duelist and managed anything other than a fight with Belial? So far his gods had to yank him into the warp to prevent an ass whooping from Grimaldus, he fled from the Blood Angels rather than fight the good fight and that's about it so far?
Happy to be illuminated.
Ooh, forgot about that! Although the Helbrecht (not Grimaldus) was in orbit, but one could still argue that him just getting to escape via Deus-Ex like that is just as "bad writing" as Ragnar beating him, no?
I'm not saying that poor writing didn't exist in old 40K. But I AM saying that the frequency of these contrived-feeling named character vs. named character duels are A: dumb, and B: has increased over time.
flandarz wrote: Even assuming Ghaz has lost far more duels than he has won (which, if you want to include every unnamed Warboss to challenge him, he probably hasn't), do you not consider it to be an issue that the top combatants of every other Faction lose duels far more often than the middle-ranked members of the Imperium? Does it not seem as though the "threats" of the universe are little more than plot devices on which to hang accolades of the Marines' victories? And this doesn't bother you in the slightest?
In short no, because Ghaz will not single handedly end the imperium via fist fights. He's a threat because he has armies in the untold billions, all who are hard to exterminate, superior to standard humans and dedicated to destruction. Just because he can mutually batter a legendary hero to death and survive having his head chopped off, doesn't mean he's useless or that orks are not a threat.
Ghaz is known for his ability to unite the ork race and shows an uncanny tactical foresight and strategic genius. Neither of those require him to be able to beat Ragnar in a fight.
I agree with all that, but then why tell a story about a the duel at all if it's going to come off as a contrivance? What's the purpose of the duel?
It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.
Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?
I like that Orks are cannonically not a threat now. It just proves that the Imperium are the bad guys. After all, all the evil fascist stuff they do is justified by the apparently unstoppable threats they face. But Space Marines can just punch out any warboss, kill the Swarmlord, destroy the Avatar of Khaine, killed Daemon Primarchs and Greater Daemons...so really, there is no justification for the brutality and evil of the Imperium. It is just a genocidal theocracy because it LIKES it.
Kinda gives a moral imperative for the downtrodden Xenos resistance to destroy them, I reckon.
Also, what I have learned is that people will somehow not accept that this is the way the setting is written while they simultaneously make arguments that this is exactly how the setting is written and should work.
It is glorious. I am so deeply amused.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But Belial survived without Primaris aid. Ragnar wouldn't have. It's not like Ghaz just lost his head and Ragnar didn't so much as take a scratch. They both "died".
So? I'd rather non-Primaris Ragnar had the same fate, lost and didn't behead Ghaz. Clearly.
Wait, but that implies that fighters don't always perform exactly the same in every battle?? Perhaps, no, surely not - but what if Ragnar had a particularly good day, and Ghaz had a particularly bad one? But lo, of course not, fighters can ONLY do the same thing over and over! But how would that explain Calgar losing to, and then BEATING, the Swarmlord.
What a load of rubbish. Calgar beat Swarmlord because Swarmlord is just as useless a villain as Ghaz now is. They both exist only to show how badass the Marine of the moment is.
Truly, a great mystery.
Dante is the TOP BLOOD ANGEL. It doesn't make him Sanguinius.
No, it doesn't. But it makes him roughly as important to BA players because he is as good as it gets.
That's implying that Ragnar isn't also a character with a similarly long and storied past, a character who's killed Greater Daemons and suchlike.
No, it implies exactly what I said. Ragnar is not, without question, the TOP SPACEWOLF. He is therefore not on the same level as Ghaz.
Nazdreg getting a mutual ""kill"" on Calgar? I'm fine with that. Ooops, is that the sound of your argument falling apart?
Don't pretend you know what my beliefs are, yeah?
My fault for not properly explaining my point (although I thought it was obvious, if you read the rest of my post and took it in context).
Would you be happy with Nazdreg getting a mutual "kill" on GUILLIMAN? Didn't think so.
And we've seen Ragnar beat characters on the Greater Daemon scale too. It's not like Ragnar doesn't also have his heroics behind him.
Ghaz is MORE than a Greater Daemon. He's the faction leader.
All I'm saying is that I'm looking at this from what we've been presented, not from what we both (yes, both - I'd have liked Ghaz to be a Prime-Ork by now, but that's not what we got) wanted.
No, the fact that you have written pages of text defending why Ghaz should be beheaded by Ragnar shows what you wanted pretty obviously.
And you're claiming objectivity, the self-confessed biased Ork player?
No? Literally. As I referred to myself as "biased" I think it's pretty obvious that I am not objective. But that doesn't make you objective. Not by a long shot.
It really isn't. Ghaz isn't on Guilliman tier. As you say above - "leaps of logic don't help this discussion".
It absolutely is. Ghaz is equal to Guilliman as far as Orks are concerned. Your claim otherwise only shows your ignorance and complete lack of understanding of the point I have repeatedly made.
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
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Dudeface wrote: Again, can someone show me where ghaz is an amazing duelist and managed anything other than a fight with Belial? So far his gods had to yank him into the warp to prevent an ass whooping from Grimaldus, he fled from the Blood Angels rather than fight the good fight and that's about it so far?
Happy to be illuminated.
Ghaz was yanked into the warp to stop him getting blown to smithereens by Grimaldus' ship. Grimaldus was not about to engage Ghaz directly. "Other than handily beating one of the top Dark Angels duellists, can anyone show me why Ghaz is an amazing duellist?" Do we need to? Is Belial, for some reason known only to yourself, not enough?
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flandarz wrote: Even assuming Ghaz has lost far more duels than he has won (which, if you want to include every unnamed Warboss to challenge him, he probably hasn't), do you not consider it to be an issue that the top combatants of every other Faction lose duels far more often than the middle-ranked members of the Imperium? Does it not seem as though the "threats" of the universe are little more than plot devices on which to hang accolades of the Marines' victories? And this doesn't bother you in the slightest?
No it doesn't, because they are Marine fanboys who want to see their pet faction boss everything else.
flandarz wrote: Even assuming Ghaz has lost far more duels than he has won (which, if you want to include every unnamed Warboss to challenge him, he probably hasn't), do you not consider it to be an issue that the top combatants of every other Faction lose duels far more often than the middle-ranked members of the Imperium? Does it not seem as though the "threats" of the universe are little more than plot devices on which to hang accolades of the Marines' victories? And this doesn't bother you in the slightest?
In short no, because Ghaz will not single handedly end the imperium via fist fights. He's a threat because he has armies in the untold billions, all who are hard to exterminate, superior to standard humans and dedicated to destruction. Just because he can mutually batter a legendary hero to death and survive having his head chopped off, doesn't mean he's useless or that orks are not a threat.
Ghaz is known for his ability to unite the ork race and shows an uncanny tactical foresight and strategic genius. Neither of those require him to be able to beat Ragnar in a fight.
....And this shows your lack of knowledge of Ork lore. Orks follow the strongest. If Ghaz isn't the strongest, Orks won't follow him. If he is beaten/beheaded by Ragnar, he is clearly not the strongest so Orks will not follow him. So he can't unite all the Orks and he is no real threat to the Imperium.
"Hard to exterminate"? On prior pages people have discussed how trivially easy it is for any faction to destroy Orks en masse. Captains beating literally thousands of Orks. We even had a short story that highlighted this here; https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/17/psychic-awakening-the-stand-of-the-sabre/ REAL tough to exterminate those Orks....
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
Hey man, don't throw us all in the same boat.
I mean, technically you aren't, but still.
You're not all "muH GirlYMaN is besstest!!!!11one" fanboys. Some though. Crikey.
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flandarz wrote: It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.
Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?
The only problem I have with the whole thing is how under-represented Ghaz is really in 40k. He hasnt got a series of novels dedicated solely about him from his perspective, we dont really get to know any duels hes been in except Belial and a few named Warbosses and a Tyrgon. He hasnt really had any further in-depth background done about him outside of the Codex and the 7th ed Supplement book.
So whilst Ragnar has had all these Mary-Sue acts of throwing spears through Magnus' eye, surviving battles against Daemonic Primarchs and slaying Greater Daemons to flesh out his character and see the scope of his feats and abilities, you dont really see that with Ghaz.
And whilst I personally dont want Ghaz to have insanely unlikely duel outcomes (like Ragnars), it would be nice to get a greater understanding of the Beast. I see Ghaz as more of a Gorgutz on a larger scale. He knows how to fight, where to fight and when not to fight. He isnt dumb, he isnt some rage driven Warboss like Grukk. He simply gets stuff done. And thats what I like about Ghaz, he is a THREAT. Not to random X character that fights him, but to the warzones he appears in. He molds the Orkz into something else; smarter, more driven, better technology, crazy tactics, "disciplined" restraint.
He unites the various Klans and put all the best Warlords and Oddboys under one banner working together (like Nazdreg sharing his teleporta tech). So Ghaz is a huge deal and I may be biased but I dont want Ragnar (who really is just a Captain) beating the crap out of Ghaz. It cheapens him not because of the raw power that Ghaz should have but more of the physical thing Ghaz represents. He is the TOP ORK. He is the defacto leader whether the boys like it or not. He has a vision that he is actually completing.
He isnt a Prime-Ork but what he is to the race is pretty damn close. I wouldnt even put him in the same boat as Chapter Masters, but I wouldnt lump him with Primarchs. No one is in their tier other than Primarchs. Any Space Marine Captain will do crazy feats when the plot needs it, so Ragnar to me is literally that, nothing special. I play Marines myself and its one of the things I hate about them, I want some tragedy and lose thats meaningful. Loosing a company of Marines isnt that big when they seemingly act fine afterwards or somehow recruit more via Primaris, but loosing a big player like Ragnar? Cato? Khosorro? That is GRIM DARK, Heroes die. Ragnar "dying" and coming back means nothing. Its not a mortal wound if you survive it.
If Ragnar died but actually achieved something, say killing Orkimedies or another of Ghaz's big council members. That would of been better than this duel that ended up doing nothing. All it did was cheapen Ghaz to be some weedy runt who gets chopped up by a extra special Space Marine.
The sense of scale dies down. If it were Logan, id be a bit more warm to the idea, but Ragnar not so much. Its like M'shen killing Konrad, but instead of letting her do it, they actually fought and killed each other, Yeah they are both crazy good but one represents more than the other in the grand scheme of things and one is definitely in a different league than the other.
We are stuck with the stupid duel now so its nothing we can do about it, ill largely ignore it haha! Im going to shave off the stitches and liquid greenstuff the neck so Ghaz never actually had his head decapitated. Thats my opinion on the matter and I know others have strong opinions in the opposite camp, I just think its all silly.
Really it should of never happened, it shouldnt have even be Ragnar, I wanted the story of Helbrecht and Yarrick to continue.
flandarz wrote: Even assuming Ghaz has lost far more duels than he has won (which, if you want to include every unnamed Warboss to challenge him, he probably hasn't), do you not consider it to be an issue that the top combatants of every other Faction lose duels far more often than the middle-ranked members of the Imperium? Does it not seem as though the "threats" of the universe are little more than plot devices on which to hang accolades of the Marines' victories? And this doesn't bother you in the slightest?
In short no, because Ghaz will not single handedly end the imperium via fist fights. He's a threat because he has armies in the untold billions, all who are hard to exterminate, superior to standard humans and dedicated to destruction. Just because he can mutually batter a legendary hero to death and survive having his head chopped off, doesn't mean he's useless or that orks are not a threat.
Ghaz is known for his ability to unite the ork race and shows an uncanny tactical foresight and strategic genius. Neither of those require him to be able to beat Ragnar in a fight.
....And this shows your lack of knowledge of Ork lore. Orks follow the strongest. If Ghaz isn't the strongest, Orks won't follow him. If he is beaten/beheaded by Ragnar, he is clearly not the strongest so Orks will not follow him. So he can't unite all the Orks and he is no real threat to the Imperium.
"Hard to exterminate"? On prior pages people have discussed how trivially easy it is for any faction to destroy Orks en masse. Captains beating literally thousands of Orks. We even had a short story that highlighted this here; https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/17/psychic-awakening-the-stand-of-the-sabre/ REAL tough to exterminate those Orks....
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
Hey man, don't throw us all in the same boat.
I mean, technically you aren't, but still.
You're not all "muH GirlYMaN is besstest!!!!11one" fanboys. Some though. Crikey.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.
Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?
Stop using facts and logic!
You misunderstand the use of the word exterminate. It's nigh impossible to stop orks from repopulating due to the spores they spread even in death. But sure, orks follow the biggest ork, which ghaz still is, providing he still beats other warbosses.
If Makari fights him to a draw that's fine, he's the luckiest grot in the galaxy.
I'm just fed up of the "omg he can't be beaten because ghaz is da ork leadurrrrr" fanboyism, many faction leaders are frankly crap or weak fighters.
They sent a renknown hero on a nigh impossible mission to kill him because he was a massive threat, which he survived after losing his head, but of course don't let that get in the way of complaining about how GW has blatant hard on for marines and targets orks to make them feel inferior.
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
Hey man, don't throw us all in the same boat.
I mean, technically you aren't, but still.
I play both Marines and Orkz, but for the whole Ghaz thing im leaning more towards the Ork side of things. Ive played Dark Angels before Orkz with them being my first army 15 years ago, but Orkz have been my more passionate race for about 13 years. With Skitarii a close second (I play Admech way more than both Dark Angels and Orkz combined).
The only thing im finding unreasonable is that Ragnar has a huger representation than Ghaz in the forms of BL novels. So people can claim (and rightly so) that Ragnar is not just a standard Wolf Lord/Captain/Company Master but Ghaz hasnt had the same amount of indepth lore. We dont know his feats, how he fights, as there isnt much to go on thats focused solely on him. We have Codex lore and the 7th ed Supplement, but neither goes into a more focused scope than just the engagements he was in and what tactics he employed. Ragnar may very well be in the Top 50 combatants for the Imperium but we havent got the same data on Ghaz's dueling history other than Belial (Who is one of the greatests swordsmen in the Imperium), some random Warbosses in his rise to power and thats about it. So I think its very unfair as Ghaz is literally in the dark in terms of dueling history, where as thematically, Ragnar is in the Shadow of Ghazghkull in regards to importance to the setting in general and what he represents.
If you got rid of Ragnar, how much of an impact would he have on the setting as a whole? Get rid of Ghaz and you have a much larger implication. The Orkz loose more than just a Captain who is easily replaced. Thats where I see the issue, Ghaz has more meat to him in the literal sense of the games overall storyline, he can only really go up from this point on until he is game ended. Ragnar kind of peters out once he becomes the Chapter Master. Ghaz has the galaxy at his finger tips, a mission to bring about the Ork gods, and to see the galaxy in unending Waaagh! What does Ragnar want? What would he do to the setting? He isnt the Regent of either side of the Imperium like Dante and Azrael (if im right for that part?). He isnt governing some super important world like Calgar, or has a seat on the High Lords of Terra.
If he wasnt included into this next PA, I would literally have no idea what Ragnar is doing or what his big aspirations are outside of the Chapter. He could disappear and would have no outer consequences to the story point. I dont mean that to offend any Wolves/Ragnar fans, im just being honest. There are many characters in the setting that dont really do much and dont get much lime light.
Overall I do agree with you Insectum! But I find the whole argument a bit silly they are two characters that shouldnt really have been connected in the first place, they may have had some history in a batrep in 2nd ed but I would of carried on (and possibly finish) existing conflicts involving Ghaz.
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
Hey man, don't throw us all in the same boat.
I mean, technically you aren't, but still.
I play both Marines and Orkz, but for the whole Ghaz thing im leaning more towards the Ork side of things. Ive played Dark Angels before Orkz with them being my first army 15 years ago, but Orkz have been my more passionate race for about 13 years. With Skitarii a close second (I play Admech way more than both Dark Angels and Orkz combined).
The only thing im finding unreasonable is that Ragnar has a huger representation than Ghaz in the forms of BL novels. So people can claim (and rightly so) that Ragnar is not just a standard Wolf Lord/Captain/Company Master but Ghaz has had the same amount of indepth lore. We dont know his feats, how he fights, as there isnt much to go on thats focused solely on him. We have Codex lore and the 7th ed Supplement, but neither goes into a more focused scope than just the engagements he was in and what tactics he employed. Ragnar may very well be in the Top 50 combatants for the Imperium but we havent got the same data on Ghaz's dueling history other than Belial (Who is one of the greatests swordsmen in the Imperium), some random Warbosses in his rise to power and thats about it. So I think its very unfair as Ghaz is literally in the dark in terms of dueling history, where as thematically, Ragnar is in the Shadow of Ghazghkull in regards to importance to the setting in general and what he represents.
If you got rid of Ragnar, how much of an impact would he have on the setting as a whole? Get rid of Ghaz and you have a much larger implication. The Orkz loose more than just a Captain who is easily replaced. Thats where is see the issue, Ghaz has more meat to him in the literal sense of the games overall storyline, he can only really go up from this point on until he is game ended. Ragnar kind of peters out once he becomes the Chapter Master. Ghaz has the galaxy at his finger tips, a mission to bring about the Ork gods, and to see the galaxy in unending Waaagh! What does Ragnar want? What would he do to the setting? He isnt the Regent of either side of the Imperium like Dante and Azrael (if im right for that part?). He isnt governing some super important world like Calgar, or has a seat on the High Lords of Terra.
If he wasnt included into this next PA, I would literally have no idea what Ragnar is doing or what his big aspirations are outside of the Chapter. He could disappear and would have no outer consequences to the story point. I dont mean that to offend any Wolves/Ragnar fans, im just being honest. There are many characters in the setting that dont really do much and dont get much lime light.
Overall I do agree with you Insectum! But I find the whole argument a bit silly they are two characters that shouldnt really have been connected in the first place, they may have had some history in a batrep in 2nd ed but I would of carried on (and possibly finish) existing conflicts involving Ghaz.
A very fair and reasonable post detailing things in a passive and informative manner, thank you.
I agree that ragnar is in an odd spot fluff wise, it wouldn't be hard for them to macguffin up another big warboss though perhaps.
The fact is that ghaz lives, is bigger than ever and possibly the only 40k character surviving a decapitation, the fact he isn't immortal however doesn't undermine the threat he represents imo.
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
Hey man, don't throw us all in the same boat.
I mean, technically you aren't, but still.
I play both Marines and Orkz, but for the whole Ghaz thing im leaning more towards the Ork side of things. Ive played Dark Angels before Orkz with them being my first army 15 years ago, but Orkz have been my more passionate race for about 13 years. With Skitarii a close second (I play Admech way more than both Dark Angels and Orkz combined).
The only thing im finding unreasonable is that Ragnar has a huger representation than Ghaz in the forms of BL novels. So people can claim (and rightly so) that Ragnar is not just a standard Wolf Lord/Captain/Company Master but Ghaz has had the same amount of indepth lore. We dont know his feats, how he fights, as there isnt much to go on thats focused solely on him. We have Codex lore and the 7th ed Supplement, but neither goes into a more focused scope than just the engagements he was in and what tactics he employed. Ragnar may very well be in the Top 50 combatants for the Imperium but we havent got the same data on Ghaz's dueling history other than Belial (Who is one of the greatests swordsmen in the Imperium), some random Warbosses in his rise to power and thats about it. So I think its very unfair as Ghaz is literally in the dark in terms of dueling history, where as thematically, Ragnar is in the Shadow of Ghazghkull in regards to importance to the setting in general and what he represents.
If you got rid of Ragnar, how much of an impact would he have on the setting as a whole? Get rid of Ghaz and you have a much larger implication. The Orkz loose more than just a Captain who is easily replaced. Thats where is see the issue, Ghaz has more meat to him in the literal sense of the games overall storyline, he can only really go up from this point on until he is game ended. Ragnar kind of peters out once he becomes the Chapter Master. Ghaz has the galaxy at his finger tips, a mission to bring about the Ork gods, and to see the galaxy in unending Waaagh! What does Ragnar want? What would he do to the setting? He isnt the Regent of either side of the Imperium like Dante and Azrael (if im right for that part?). He isnt governing some super important world like Calgar, or has a seat on the High Lords of Terra.
If he wasnt included into this next PA, I would literally have no idea what Ragnar is doing or what his big aspirations are outside of the Chapter. He could disappear and would have no outer consequences to the story point. I dont mean that to offend any Wolves/Ragnar fans, im just being honest. There are many characters in the setting that dont really do much and dont get much lime light.
Overall I do agree with you Insectum! But I find the whole argument a bit silly they are two characters that shouldnt really have been connected in the first place, they may have had some history in a batrep in 2nd ed but I would of carried on (and possibly finish) existing conflicts involving Ghaz.
A very fair and reasonable post detailing things in a passive and informative manner, thank you.
I agree that ragnar is in an odd spot fluff wise, it wouldn't be hard for them to macguffin up another big warboss though perhaps.
The fact is that ghaz lives, is bigger than ever and possibly the only 40k character surviving a decapitation, the fact he isn't immortal however doesn't undermine the threat he represents imo.
Oh yeah I agree, I actually wouldnt care if Ghaz died, or if he did get his head chopped off and reattached. Its more the why and not the how. I actually love Ragnar, I just dont see the connection personally to Ghaz. If Helbrecht did this Id be like hell fething yea!!!!! But the way both sides didnt really loose anything? The importance of the duel doesnt really have any solidity to it. Why break a neck and loose a head when you both just get flex taped back to peak fighting form (and better might I add). I could get behind Ragnar tracking down Ghazzie and them closing the noose on him, with aid of some Steel Legion Ork Hunters and a strike force of similar veterans from Ghaz's wars. But I wouldnt have had to duel to begin with.
The thing we these duels are, they always spark conflict in the community, one side thinks theyre boy is better. I kind of agree with the post earlier (I think it was Insectum) where the characters commanded the forces and if they did fight someone, it was a nameless face. Comic style fights dont tend to end well, both sides feel like they are under-represented or given a bad showing.
I'm just fed up of the "omg he can't be beaten because ghaz is da ork leadurrrrr" fanboyism, many faction leaders are frankly crap or weak fighters.
That's nothing like what this is or what anyone is saying though? I'd love it for Ghaz to lose, or indeed elect to run away, when faced with a suitable threat. Choosing to run would show his intelligence, which is part of what makes him scary. 'But AAE, what's a suitable threat brooo?' I hear you cry. Good question. A character on the same level within their respective faction. Guilliman'. Dante. Farsight. Eldrad. Vect. Swarmlord. There's a few examples. Some of these may 'beat' Ghaz' using guile rather than brawn. But they are the correct 'tier' of character. They are the top character within their respective faction.
Ghaz getting his head cut off by Ragnar does not seem like it'll lead to an interesting story that is well written and emphasises the most terrifying elements of Ghaz' as a character.
They sent a renknown hero on a nigh impossible mission to kill him because he was a massive threat, which he survived after losing his head, but of course don't let that get in the way of complaining about how GW has blatant hard on for marines and targets orks to make them feel inferior.
A mission isn't 'nigh impossible' if it's achieved is it? As renown as Ragnar is, he is not on Ghaz's level. This is a quantifiable fact. For SW alone Russ is above him, as is Grimnar. No Ork is above Ghaz'. It doesn't seem that Ghaz' is 'a massive threat' when he gets decapitated by Ragnar either. Quite the opposite.
Talking from a meta perspective we all knew neither would die. I gotta be honest I'm surprised Ghaz' didn't just pummell Ragnar and leave him for dead at least off screen. His pride is his biggest real weakness. Further GW didn't need Ghaz' to be beheaded to justify his larger model. It's utterly unnecessary. All this has achieved is cheapen Ghaz's standing on the galactic stage. If a SM Captain (of great renown no less! Seriously I think you'd struggle to find a SM Captain that isn't 'of great renown') can behead him, he's not really a threat, is he? He can't really stand in the same arena as Primarchs, which is bizarre because his new model looks like it was made to allow him that gravitas. It's all very confused.
I don't think anyone has argued that Ghaz should be undefeatable, or that no one should be able to fight him to a draw. We just feel like a pre-Primaris Ragnar doing so makes Ghaz seem far less formidable. He's the current epitome of what an Ork should be. Big. Strong. Kunnin'. Etc. He should be the best fighter the Orkz can churn out. And he was fought to a draw, not by the best example of humanity. Nor the second best. Nor even the fiftieth best. Ragnar is a formidable foe, for sure, but he's one of a thousand equally formidable foes within the Space Marines. Of which there are hundreds of MORE formidable fighters. So, where does that leave Ghaz and the Orkz when the best they can bring to bear draws against the hundreth best the Imperium can throw out? It should make you wonder why the Imperium doesn't just gather a handful of the badasses, backs them up with a Chapter or two, and just nips Thraka's threat in the bud before he can become an actual problem.
deffrekka wrote: The only problem I have with the whole thing is how under-represented Ghaz is really in 40k. He hasnt got a series of novels dedicated solely about him from his perspective, we dont really get to know any duels hes been in except Belial and a few named Warbosses and a Tyrgon. He hasnt really had any further in-depth background done about him outside of the Codex and the 7th ed Supplement book.
So whilst Ragnar has had all these Mary-Sue acts of throwing spears through Magnus' eye, surviving battles against Daemonic Primarchs and slaying Greater Daemons to flesh out his character and see the scope of his feats and abilities, you dont really see that with Ghaz.
And whilst I personally dont want Ghaz to have insanely unlikely duel outcomes (like Ragnars), it would be nice to get a greater understanding of the Beast. I see Ghaz as more of a Gorgutz on a larger scale. He knows how to fight, where to fight and when not to fight. He isnt dumb, he isnt some rage driven Warboss like Grukk. He simply gets stuff done. And thats what I like about Ghaz, he is a THREAT. Not to random X character that fights him, but to the warzones he appears in. He molds the Orkz into something else; smarter, more driven, better technology, crazy tactics, "disciplined" restraint.
He unites the various Klans and put all the best Warlords and Oddboys under one banner working together (like Nazdreg sharing his teleporta tech). So Ghaz is a huge deal and I may be biased but I dont want Ragnar (who really is just a Captain) beating the crap out of Ghaz. It cheapens him not because of the raw power that Ghaz should have but more of the physical thing Ghaz represents. He is the TOP ORK. He is the defacto leader whether the boys like it or not. He has a vision that he is actually completing.
He isnt a Prime-Ork but what he is to the race is pretty damn close. I wouldnt even put him in the same boat as Chapter Masters, but I wouldnt lump him with Primarchs. No one is in their tier other than Primarchs. Any Space Marine Captain will do crazy feats when the plot needs it, so Ragnar to me is literally that, nothing special. I play Marines myself and its one of the things I hate about them, I want some tragedy and lose thats meaningful. Loosing a company of Marines isnt that big when they seemingly act fine afterwards or somehow recruit more via Primaris, but loosing a big player like Ragnar? Cato? Khosorro? That is GRIM DARK, Heroes die. Ragnar "dying" and coming back means nothing. Its not a mortal wound if you survive it.
If Ragnar died but actually achieved something, say killing Orkimedies or another of Ghaz's big council members. That would of been better than this duel that ended up doing nothing. All it did was cheapen Ghaz to be some weedy runt who gets chopped up by a extra special Space Marine.
The sense of scale dies down. If it were Logan, id be a bit more warm to the idea, but Ragnar not so much. Its like M'shen killing Konrad, but instead of letting her do it, they actually fought and killed each other, Yeah they are both crazy good but one represents more than the other in the grand scheme of things and one is definitely in a different league than the other.
We are stuck with the stupid duel now so its nothing we can do about it, ill largely ignore it haha! Im going to shave off the stitches and liquid greenstuff the neck so Ghaz never actually had his head decapitated. Thats my opinion on the matter and I know others have strong opinions in the opposite camp, I just think its all silly.
Really it should of never happened, it shouldnt have even be Ragnar, I wanted the story of Helbrecht and Yarrick to continue.
Most of Psychic Awakening has been this boring non-consequential mess of story telling. I've never been more bored by Status Quo keeping than the stuff we've seen in psychic awakening.
First was Phoenix Rising's lazy eldar writing where it ended with their complete defeat. Then we have Ghaz getting beheaded by Ragnar which is a bit insulting to Ork Players. Some random ass space marine captain defeated one of the most powerful living ork warlords in the entirety of 40k. He gets defeated like a cartoon villain thrown around like a headless volleyball and planted into a new body. Which devalues his character and his presence as a villain. If someone is that easy to defeat then whats the point of fearing them? Its why I think this a perfect example of Worfing. Ghaz was Worfed, to prove how powerful Ragnar was. I wrote a similar thread on r/40klore about the Farseer Condrorum and how GW always likes to use Avatars of Khaine as a measuring stick for how powerful a space marine or chaos character is.
Here we have Ragnar who by all purposes is a well known character, defeats one of the most powerful orks in 40k. Which is just kind of boring? So he won? Okay? But what does that mean for ragnar? He is not that important of a space marine, he isn't a chapter master, he is only a captain. And he really didn't succeed cause Ghaz just came back from the dead, and more powerful than before. Yet somehow we are told this is an important development? Why? Cause they want to sell more models. I hope they take this entire psychic awakening and retcon the hell out of it. Cause it has been the most bland and boring lore we've had in the entirety of 40k 8th edition.
Its pretty boring and bland writing tbh, and even if they try to justify it, it is still stupid and boring. Just for once, why can't the space marines fail? Why is it that a childrens book had the space marines lose hopeless to an Alien threat but mainline 40k space marines are near invincible in the lore?
I agree with what has been said in this thread, but its just a symptom of forcing down rules into books and thinking you need lore to accompany them. These reek of being forced out quickly to meet quotas, so the writing were was going to be terrible. Great for rules, and balancing but man, I find it really hard to care about 40k lore anymore, especially if this is all we get.
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
Hey man, don't throw us all in the same boat.
I mean, technically you aren't, but still.
I play both Marines and Orkz, but for the whole Ghaz thing im leaning more towards the Ork side of things. Ive played Dark Angels before Orkz with them being my first army 15 years ago, but Orkz have been my more passionate race for about 13 years. With Skitarii a close second (I play Admech way more than both Dark Angels and Orkz combined).
The only thing im finding unreasonable is that Ragnar has a huger representation than Ghaz in the forms of BL novels. So people can claim (and rightly so) that Ragnar is not just a standard Wolf Lord/Captain/Company Master but Ghaz hasnt had the same amount of indepth lore. We dont know his feats, how he fights, as there isnt much to go on thats focused solely on him. We have Codex lore and the 7th ed Supplement, but neither goes into a more focused scope than just the engagements he was in and what tactics he employed. Ragnar may very well be in the Top 50 combatants for the Imperium but we havent got the same data on Ghaz's dueling history other than Belial (Who is one of the greatests swordsmen in the Imperium), some random Warbosses in his rise to power and thats about it. So I think its very unfair as Ghaz is literally in the dark in terms of dueling history, where as thematically, Ragnar is in the Shadow of Ghazghkull in regards to importance to the setting in general and what he represents.
If you got rid of Ragnar, how much of an impact would he have on the setting as a whole? Get rid of Ghaz and you have a much larger implication. The Orkz loose more than just a Captain who is easily replaced. Thats where I see the issue, Ghaz has more meat to him in the literal sense of the games overall storyline, he can only really go up from this point on until he is game ended. Ragnar kind of peters out once he becomes the Chapter Master. Ghaz has the galaxy at his finger tips, a mission to bring about the Ork gods, and to see the galaxy in unending Waaagh! What does Ragnar want? What would he do to the setting? He isnt the Regent of either side of the Imperium like Dante and Azrael (if im right for that part?). He isnt governing some super important world like Calgar, or has a seat on the High Lords of Terra.
If he wasnt included into this next PA, I would literally have no idea what Ragnar is doing or what his big aspirations are outside of the Chapter. He could disappear and would have no outer consequences to the story point. I dont mean that to offend any Wolves/Ragnar fans, im just being honest. There are many characters in the setting that dont really do much and dont get much lime light.
Overall I do agree with you Insectum! But I find the whole argument a bit silly they are two characters that shouldnt really have been connected in the first place, they may have had some history in a batrep in 2nd ed but I would of carried on (and possibly finish) existing conflicts involving Ghaz.
Nice post, and I think you touch on a point that I like a lot when it comes to Ragnar not meaning very much in the grand scheme of things. Space Marine Chapters are institutions that live longer than the individuals involved with them. Space Marine leaders come and go, but the Chapter stays. Whereas an Ork Waaagh is built around an individual Ork. That's why Ghaz the individual has such weight.
I largely agree that these vs. arguments are silly, and they almost always wind up with people being upset about the outcome of the duel. This is why I prefer the strategic move-countermove narratives depicting greater battle sequences and not these scenes depicting "what would happen if <blank> vs. <blank> meet in a fight. The notion that they shouldn't have even met in the first place rings true.
flandarz wrote:It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.
Kinda? Ghaz just needs to beat the Ork stupid enough to challenge him, but he doesn't need to duel them all - if he can threaten them, or promise enough fights/loot/teef, he can get them in line as well. Krumpin 'eads is only really needed to assert physical dominance, and Ghaz is smarter than to need that all the time.
Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?
Considering that Makari is widely considered to be supernaturally lucky (and that's his whole thing), him blustering through a duel with a hero of the Space Marines would be utterly hilarious, and I'd have no issue with it.
An Actual Englishman wrote:What a load of rubbish. Calgar beat Swarmlord because Swarmlord is just as useless a villain as Ghaz now is. They both exist only to show how badass the Marine of the moment is.
Truly, a great mystery.
So, when the xenos win, it's totally valid and important, but when a Space Marine wins, it's just there to make the Marines look good?
I'm not saying that that's not the case sometimes, but it's not ALL the time.
Dante is the TOP BLOOD ANGEL. It doesn't make him Sanguinius.
No, it doesn't. But it makes him roughly as important to BA players because he is as good as it gets.
But I'm talking actual rank, across the entire timeline of 40k here. Not just M41.
That's implying that Ragnar isn't also a character with a similarly long and storied past, a character who's killed Greater Daemons and suchlike.
No, it implies exactly what I said. Ragnar is not, without question, the TOP SPACEWOLF. He is therefore not on the same level as Ghaz.
So what about Calgar then? He's not even strictly they "top Ultramarine". Does that mean that he's now below Ghaz, even though other Chapter Masters, who have long been equal to him, are now above him, purely because of Guilliman? Does that mean that Guilliman is equal to someone like Azrael or Grimnar?
Nazdreg getting a mutual ""kill"" on Calgar? I'm fine with that. Ooops, is that the sound of your argument falling apart?
Don't pretend you know what my beliefs are, yeah?
My fault for not properly explaining my point (although I thought it was obvious, if you read the rest of my post and took it in context).
Would you be happy with Nazdreg getting a mutual "kill" on GUILLIMAN? Didn't think so.
Yup, keep shifting the goalposts, mate.
I'm talking EQUIVALENT characters, or characters to one degree of equivalence. Nazdreg is a high ranking Warboss (so, equivalent to someone like Sicarius, or Ragnar, or Sammael) - Calgar is a Ghaz equivalent. Guilliman is a Primarch, and far outclasses them.
But good try with the goalposts.
And we've seen Ragnar beat characters on the Greater Daemon scale too. It's not like Ragnar doesn't also have his heroics behind him.
Ghaz is MORE than a Greater Daemon. He's the faction leader.
No, he's not. He's the most influential Ork, but doesn't lead every Ork. He doesn't even lead half of them! Therefore, he's not the Faction Leader, in the same way that Creed or Yarrick aren't Faction Leaders.
All I'm saying is that I'm looking at this from what we've been presented, not from what we both (yes, both - I'd have liked Ghaz to be a Prime-Ork by now, but that's not what we got) wanted.
No, the fact that you have written pages of text defending why Ghaz should be beheaded by Ragnar shows what you wanted pretty obviously.
I'm not defending Ghaz being beheaded. I'm simply pointing out the very hyperbolic arguments being made against it.
Would I have written this duel the same way, had I been working at GW? Absolutely not. Is it as bad as some people are saying? Well, without context, we don't know, but I don't think it is.
And you're claiming objectivity, the self-confessed biased Ork player?
No? Literally. As I referred to myself as "biased" I think it's pretty obvious that I am not objective. But that doesn't make you objective. Not by a long shot.
So, why should I be paying attention?
It really isn't. Ghaz isn't on Guilliman tier. As you say above - "leaps of logic don't help this discussion".
It absolutely is. Ghaz is equal to Guilliman as far as Orks are concerned. Your claim otherwise only shows your ignorance and complete lack of understanding of the point I have repeatedly made.
No, he's not. He's a Calgar/Grimnar/Dante/Azrael equal. A Guilliman equal would be a Prime-Ork - and while I'd *like for Ghaz to be at that stage, he is not*.
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
Oooh, yes, go on, tar us all! I'm just pointing out facts here: if your biases don't allow that, that's not on me.
No it doesn't, because they are Marine fanboys who want to see their pet faction boss everything else.
I've already said I'm more a fan of Orks than I am Wolves. Doesn't change facts that this isn't fluff-breaking.
As I also made clear (which you attempted to snare me with), I'd be more than happy for the same to happen to my own preferred factions and heroes, because it would make sense. It's got nothing to do with "only marine can win!" and any argument claiming that is just projecting.
deffrekka wrote:And whilst I personally dont want Ghaz to have insanely unlikely duel outcomes (like Ragnars), it would be nice to get a greater understanding of the Beast. I see Ghaz as more of a Gorgutz on a larger scale. He knows how to fight, where to fight and when not to fight. He isnt dumb, he isnt some rage driven Warboss like Grukk. He simply gets stuff done. And thats what I like about Ghaz, he is a THREAT. Not to random X character that fights him, but to the warzones he appears in. He molds the Orkz into something else; smarter, more driven, better technology, crazy tactics, "disciplined" restraint.
Yup - that's why he's special. Not because he krumps the 'ardest, but because he's the smartest, the most tactically gifted, and knows how to get the Orks united. And while he's not quite there yet, he easily has the potential for Prime-Ork-dom.
Ragnar "dying" and coming back means nothing. Its not a mortal wound if you survive it.
Also agreed, it's lazy stakes, but by the same token, Ghaz "dying" and then coming straight back also means nothing, right?
I think most of us agree that these Commanders should actually command and not go 'balls to the wall, let's have a duel!'
Ragnar, is more the 'lead from the front' kinda guy though, from what I gather. Ghaz perhaps less so but Orks gonna Orks I guess and apparently Ragnar managed to somehow sneak through Ghaz's armada, multiple occupied worlds full of Orks and any other senses the Orks possess.
Also agreed, it's lazy stakes, but by the same token, Ghaz "dying" and then coming straight back also means nothing, right?
Isn't that most of psychic awakening? It literally means nothing at all? Nothing has at all happened that was consequential or meaningful for anyone involved?
Like I get people are angry on both sides, but lets be honest has PA been at all interesting in any real regards? Its just resteps and nothing big happening at all. The most consequential thing to happen was the Great Work. No major characters have died, no major regions have been lost, none have been taken, no new heroes for us to root for.
ITs been kind of like someone pushed out all this lore at the last minute. There is nothing in this that really pushes 40k or transforms it in anyway real manner. You could skip PA and you wouldn't even know the difference.
Honestly the best lore GW does is when it is not these major character are involved in the slightest but background characters. 40k is a setting and GW refuses to introduce new characters that drive consequential events in these campaign books. So far we have had no real developments and if we continue to have all these big characters thrown it turns into a saturday night cartoon cause we can't kill anyone off.
There will continue to be non-consequential events if we continue this trend of pitting big players against one another.
deffrekka wrote:I actually love Ragnar, I just dont see the connection personally to Ghaz.
Now, that I do agree with, though I don't really have any love for Ragnar. There isn't the same legacy between them - if there had been, I'd be more for it, I'm still not sure why they didn't go with Helbrecht. Hell, even Tu'Shan would have been more interesting (the only Chapter Master to be present for both the 2nd and 3rd Wars, and the Salamanders and Orks make a nice contrast - both industrial, both green, both like things like fire and big krumpy melee weapons, but one is savage and cruel, where the other is humanitarian and more disciplined.
The importance of the duel doesnt really have any solidity to it. Why break a neck and loose a head when you both just get flex taped back to peak fighting form (and better might I add). I could get behind Ragnar tracking down Ghazzie and them closing the noose on him, with aid of some Steel Legion Ork Hunters and a strike force of similar veterans from Ghaz's wars. But I wouldnt have had to duel to begin with.
Yeah, largely agreed. A duel wasn't needed - Ghaz, to me, isn't a duellist. He's a very tough, very powerful Ork, but his strength comes from his tactics. A clash of armies would have been so much better.
And again, a mutual loss isn't really a fun dynamic, for either party.
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Asherian Command wrote: ITs been kind of like someone pushed out all this lore at the last minute. There is nothing in this that really pushes 40k or transforms it in anyway real manner. You could skip PA and you wouldn't even know the difference.
Yeah, in all fairness, PA hasn't done a great deal. Vigilus was really good, IMO, gave us a really nice view of how the campaign played out and how to recreate that. Even something like the Death Guard invasion of Tau space never really happened, which is a bit of a shame - that would have been interesting.
I think the main winner from these PA things has been the small little short stories WarCom produce. Some of them are pretty nice, IMO. The actual books? Eh, swing and a miss for me.
Which sucks they really hyped PA as world changing for 40k, and really nothing has happened? I mean these events happened but what does that do for the whole galaxy? These are basically those little blip dots in the codex that are mentioned for a sentence and then immedately forgotten cause they weren't very interesting to begin with.
This is basically having icing on a cake, but there is no filling, no sponge at all in that cake. Its just a gak ton of icing. There is no depth, there is nothing to really talk about that could be discussed in any real manner.
But GW won't learn from this they will continue to print more PAs which are jsut addenums to the rules of other codexes with more abandon, with boring lore, instead of releasing a single campaign pack ala Vigilius.
Though I would argue Vigilius was not as interesting at the end, it was kind of a flop at the end, they really hyped the black legion and they ran away like cartoon characters.
Yeah Sgt_Smudge, it does mean literally nothing and thats the silliness behind it all! To me its more of the representation over the physical fight. Who is Ragnar, Who is Ghaz. Why are they fighting. Whats at stake. What do they represent and how does the affect the universe around them. Thats what I care about and obviously we have all had this story out of context, WHC has gave us a mere snippet, but its not a very convincing set up. Pit Ghaz against I dunno Sarpedon, but make it BELIEVABLE and give us a sense of IMPORTANCE. We will find out more when the book is out but its not the best narrative GW has given us throughout the PA series like Asherian Command mentioned before.
I remember when watching the trailer, the feeling I got was, meh? I had such a greater spark with Ghaz's reveal trailer (showing Makari) than the PA6 trailer. There was no connection between the Wolves and Ghaz's Great Waaagh! No snippets in either codex, or prior books. Like some of the PA books make sense like Greater Good and Faith and Fury (Phoenix Rising and Ritual of the Damned not so much...), they have some lore grounded. This one seems forced for the sake of the name of the PA. Saga of the Beast, well there is only 1 Beast, so Ghaz it is. But hey ho haha! We still get new models and rules so cant complain too much
Asherian Command wrote:Though I would argue Vigilius was not as interesting at the end, it was kind of a flop at the end, they really hyped the black legion and they ran away like cartoon characters.
Yeah, Vigilus was definitely at it's best in the first book. I'd argue Abaddon shouldn't have come in, and the BBEG should have been Haarkon Worldclaimer all along. Hype him up as a new Chaos character, and all that - and while we're at it, let's not have Calgar, but someone else? I didn't *mind* Calgar, but I do want a bit of other Chapters too. How about the Silver Templars taking command of the defence?
deffrekka wrote:I remember when watching the trailer, the feeling I got was, meh? I had such a greater spark with Ghaz's reveal trailer (showing Makari) than the PA6 trailer. There was no connection between the Wolves and Ghaz's Great Waaagh! No snippets in either codex, or prior books. Like some of the PA books mike sense like Greater Good and Faith and Fury (Phoenix Rising and Ritual of the Damned not so much...), they have some lore grounded. This one seems forced for the sake of the name of the PA. Saga of the Beast, well there is only 1 Beast, so Ghaz it is. But hey ho haha! We still get new models and rules so cant complain too much
Yeah, I'm really happy for new Ghaz model, looks gorgeous in my opinion, but I can't say I'm amazed by the narrative on this. It's not the duel that bothers me, so much as "why Ragnar? Why not any other character or faction?".
As I said, Black Templars or Salamanders would be perfect Astartes stand ins, or just go for good old Armageddon Steel Legion.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why do you keep comparing the TOP ORK to a number 2 of other factions? This is disingenuous. Ghaz IS our Guilliman. He is above Calgar and Grimnar because they are not the top player in their respective factions. Dante is the top Blood Angel, so he is of equal standing, IMO (unless Sanguinius returns).
Why do you consider Dante the top Blood Angel but Grimnar not the top Space Wolf? There is no confirmation that Leman Russ is alive, in fact there are various bits of lore where Russ himself specifically states he is dying before he goes off with his Wolf Guard never to be seen again.
Not all faction leaders are of equal standing when it comes to martial prowess. If you think about it in base terms when considering characters currently alive in the setting then yes; Ghaz is the most important Ork just as Gulliman is the most important Ultramarine. However Ghaz is NOT comparable to a Primarch in terms of martial prowess, not even close. He is comparable to a Chapter Master on that scale, this is why Ragnar can feasibly go toe to toe with Ghaz and why them dueling to a double death is plausible.
Who do you think are the faction leaders for the Chaos Daemons? It's the Greater Daemons.
An Actual Englishman wrote: You don't seem to understand your own claims. You ARE underrating him in thinking that this Ragnar bs is normal. As has been said now countless times, Ghaz is THE TOP ORK, there is no Ork greater.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Your points are utterly irrelevant. Ghaz is THE TOP ORK. As has been stated, like tens of times now, the TOP ORK should not get beheaded to the third (?) Space Wolf. It cheapens him as a character.
Lets be clear. Ragnar Blackmane IS THE TOP SPACE WOLF. However in contrast to other armies it is not in terms of Rank, but in terms of Relevance. He is the one most Space Wolf stories are written about, he is the one who's Great Company is represented on all the box art and sculpts. He is the Main Character/Protagonist of the Space Wolves who has been represented in the setting since Grimnar was no more than a blurb, a picture and a stat-line. Ragnar has been doing Chapter Master level feats since he was a Blood Claw (effectively a Space Marine Scout in Rank). If there is another Space Marine character who has managed to perform the feats as a Scout that Ragnar has as a Blood Claw i have yet to read about it. He is the current Chapter Champion of the Space Wolves; renowned for his combat ability and his incredible reflexes beyond that of other Space Marines. Hell he was the only Space Marine to ever have a Dodge saving throw. His skill and importance is being severely underestimated here.
Given this it is not that far fetched that he has managed to stand up to Ghaz and pull off a double death. It is not like Ragnar drawing with Gulliman like you keep trying to suggest.
Asherian Command wrote:Though I would argue Vigilius was not as interesting at the end, it was kind of a flop at the end, they really hyped the black legion and they ran away like cartoon characters.
Yeah, Vigilus was definitely at it's best in the first book. I'd argue Abaddon shouldn't have come in, and the BBEG should have been Haarkon Worldclaimer all along. Hype him up as a new Chaos character, and all that - and while we're at it, let's not have Calgar, but someone else? I didn't *mind* Calgar, but I do want a bit of other Chapters too. How about the Silver Templars taking command of the defence?
deffrekka wrote:I remember when watching the trailer, the feeling I got was, meh? I had such a greater spark with Ghaz's reveal trailer (showing Makari) than the PA6 trailer. There was no connection between the Wolves and Ghaz's Great Waaagh! No snippets in either codex, or prior books. Like some of the PA books mike sense like Greater Good and Faith and Fury (Phoenix Rising and Ritual of the Damned not so much...), they have some lore grounded. This one seems forced for the sake of the name of the PA. Saga of the Beast, well there is only 1 Beast, so Ghaz it is. But hey ho haha! We still get new models and rules so cant complain too much
Yeah, I'm really happy for new Ghaz model, looks gorgeous in my opinion, but I can't say I'm amazed by the narrative on this. It's not the duel that bothers me, so much as "why Ragnar? Why not any other character or faction?".
As I said, Black Templars or Salamanders would be perfect Astartes stand ins, or just go for good old Armageddon Steel Legion.
I whole heartedly agree. Salamanders are actually fairly under-represented in 40k, which is actually kind of sad.
As regards to the whole comparison with Primarchs and Greater Daemons, I think this needs to stop haha! One, Primarchs are in a wholeeeeeeeeeee different ball park of their own. The gap between goal posts is vastly different and if im brutally honest, I dont even see Prime-Orkz even being in the same ranking tier. Primarchs are literal demi-gods created by a near godly being. Its not even a fair comparison hahaha the intellect, innate powers, inspiration and skill surpasses any mortal being. Even amongst the Primarchs some are hugely better than others *cough* Lorgar *cough* pile of trash *cough* but then he fills a different role than his brothers, that of an a orator and a demagogue.
The leaders of the Krork (not the old ones but the actual Orkz themselves), now thats where I would draw the comparison. Ghaz isnt a Guilliman, but where you can compare the two is the seat of power they hold and whilst Roboute's is vastly larger, Ghaz is pretty unmatched in that regards compared to other races out there. Greater Daemons, this is another kettle of fish again. And ones where they are poorly written about, They are unworldly, with knowledge that surpasses any mortal. They are corruption incarnate and a single one on a planet can cause mass carnage and change, with cult uprisings, the planet physically changing and driving people insane. But in the stories, just like the Avatar's of Khaine, they are things for people to beat up on. In reality they are immensely powerful, commanding innumerable legions of lesser daemons, harnessing powers inseen by mortal pyskers. They may not have the plot point and narrative importance of Ghaz, but they are in another tier by themselves and really Ghaz is in his own, He has no comparison, unless your another Ork at his power and stature, you cant compare him to a Human, a Eldar or a Necron. Orkz simply dont follow the same ranking. You can compare a Captain to a Chaos Lord, and Archon to a Autarch but and Ork is an Ork. Figuratively you can make a comparison in the sense of place in the lore, the power they hold, so on and so forth. But everything else, not really.
A Prime-Ork does more than just fight, he shapes those Orkz around him in his image. Thats what Waaagh!s do, they reflect the leader. So thats where I would draw the line, Ghaz is Ghaz. I wouldnt make a comparison against Chapter Masters or Primaechs. They do and act differently than him.
DivineVisitor wrote: Why do you consider Dante the top Blood Angel but Grimnar not the top Space Wolf? There is no confirmation that Leman Russ is alive, in fact there are various bits of lore where Russ himself specifically states he is dying before he goes off with his Wolf Guard never to be seen again.
Because 40k lore has become so awful, so cheesy and Saturday morning cartoon that even characters that have "died" come back to life. If Sanguinius' death wasn't so ingrained in the lore itself I wouldn't be surprised if he returned, one day. In fact I could see Dante turning into him or something equally banal.
As long as the Primarch has not died (and in some cases, even if they have *cough*Vulkan*cough*), they are presumed alive and now that Guilliman (not to mention Morty/Magnus) has returned to the tabletop (and the lore) the floodgates are open, so to speak. Russ could come back and as far as we know is alive. The same is not true of Sanguinius, who is slightly more 'dead'.
Not all faction leaders are of equal standing when it comes to martial prowess. If you think about it in base terms when considering characters currently alive in the setting then yes; Ghaz is the most important Ork just as Gulliman is the most important Ultramarine. However Ghaz is NOT comparable to a Primarch in terms of martial prowess, not even close. He is comparable to a Chapter Master on that scale, this is why Ragnar can feasibly go toe to toe with Ghaz and why them dueling to a double death is plausible.
Right so Primarch Vulkan could not take the M32 Beast in a straight up fight. He knew this. Ghaz has been repeatedly referenced as the Beast by GW. This PA is literally called "Saga of the Beast". What makes you think that Ghaz is not capable of going toe-to-toe with a Primarch in terms of martial prowess?
I agree that Ghaz would never kill a (none-perpetual) Primarch, because, well, plot armour. But that is not the same as lacking martial prowess.
Who do you think are the faction leaders for the Chaos Daemons? It's the Greater Daemons.
The named Greater Daemons, perhaps?
But your point is a brilliant one because it actually emphasises exactly what I've been saying and why I'm unhappy about this turn of events. Greater Daemons, named and otherwise, serve only as punching bags for the Imperium characters to flex their metaphysical muscles. Has Skarbrand, the most murderous and angry daemon going, who literally tried to kill the god of murder, actually killed a named character? Ever? Genuine question. Don't you think that's fething stupid and awful writing? How about that Khorne Bloodletter, Skulltaker, is it? Isn't it supposed to be one of the best duellists in the setting that is dispatched by Khorne to collect skulls of the worthy? How many named characters has it killed? Name one.
Poor Ghaz is getting turned into a Skarbrand type character here. He's even immune to beheading!
Lets be clear. Ragnar Blackmane IS THE TOP SPACE WOLF. However in contrast to other armies it is not in terms of Rank, but in terms of Relevance. He is the one most Space Wolf stories are written about, he is the one who's Great Company is represented on all the box art and sculpts. He is the Main Character/Protagonist of the Space Wolves who has been represented in the setting since Grimnar was no more than a blurb, a picture and a stat-line. Ragnar has been doing Chapter Master level feats since he was a Blood Claw (effectively a Space Marine Scout in Rank). If there is another Space Marine character who has managed to perform the feats as a Scout that Ragnar has as a Blood Claw i have yet to read about it. He is renowned for his combat ability and his incredible reflexes beyond that of other Space Marines. Hell he was the only Space Marine to ever have a Dodge saving throw. His skill and importance is being severely underestimated here.
Is he as important as Russ? If the answer to that question is "no" then he isn't the TOP SPACE WOLF in terms of relevance, Russ is right? If you believe otherwise then fair enough but I'm not sure I agree (would be interested to discuss further mind).
Given this it is not that far fetched that he has managed to stand up to Ghaz and pull off a double death.
Absolutely, if he truly is the most relevant Space Wolf including all other Wolves then I will concede the point. My understanding is that Russ is by far the most relevant, what with the whole end-times thing and the fact that he's the Primarch?
I still find it weird when people try to pretend like all these Space Marine Chapters aren't all part of a larger whole. Let's say Ragnar is the most important Wolf. Even if we exclude Guilliman, he's still less important than an easy dozen of other Imperial characters. But Ghaz isn't just the most important Goff. He's the most important Ork. Period.
Nothing really to do with the OP on this one. Just lamenting the state of things.
flandarz wrote: I still find it weird when people try to pretend like all these Space Marine Chapters aren't all part of a larger whole. Let's say Ragnar is the most important Wolf. Even if we exclude Guilliman, he's still less important than an easy dozen of other Imperial characters. But Ghaz isn't just the most important Goff. He's the most important Ork. Period.
Nothing really to do with the OP on this one. Just lamenting the state of things.
Well we'll see about this. Ghaz may yet be tied to Goffs. Though as far as the lore is concerned he is indeed the most important Ork regardless of Clan I suppose.
With regards to the different Marine Chapters, I guess the players of the different chapters see theirs as the most important/best/coolest etc and to be fair I get that. You're going to find it hard to convince a Space Wolf player that Russ is anything but the most important character in the setting excluding the Emperor himself. Players love their Faction, as I love mine, so I can't criticise a SW or BA or whatever player expecting their 'Top Boi' to be on par with 'Top Bois' from other Factions.
flandarz wrote: I still find it weird when people try to pretend like all these Space Marine Chapters aren't all part of a larger whole. Let's say Ragnar is the most important Wolf. Even if we exclude Guilliman, he's still less important than an easy dozen of other Imperial characters. But Ghaz isn't just the most important Goff. He's the most important Ork. Period.
Nothing really to do with the OP on this one. Just lamenting the state of things.
As filled out as the lore is there is still huge vast areas of unexplored blank canvass that GW have to reveal or expand from. The Imperium as a whole has stacks and stacks of books from BL, codexes and games from their perspective. You have lore out of the wazzoo and to a lesser degree so does Chaos Space Marines. Xenos on the otherhand, not so much..... Eldar is the least affected by this as theyve had Phil Kelly love for editions on end, and a good series of novels. Nercons and Orkz are criminally under-represented. We know of Ghaz and some other big players but what of other larger Orkz? Ghaz wouldnt be the only one, take the Grand Warlord. He has literally no fluff. No mention other than a space of territory on the star map. His name would suggest he's a big Ork, or a Freeboota who has a massive ego. Or he's an older more ancient Ork. His Waaagh! is going nowhere and maybe hes had his fill of war. I use to always Imagine the Grand Warlord was some ancient gnarled Ork, bigger than the rest (before the beast arising series brought about the notion of Prime-Orkz) who simply got bored of fighting and ran an empire. The other Ork bosses would respect that and knew not to rile up the Old Skumgrond.
Now imagine if Ghaz had a rival, an Ork of similar pedigree, probably not all about the whole prophet origins but still suitable influential and threatening to the setting. All of sudden that adds some more character and validity to the claim that the Orkz are as dangerous as the lore tries make them out to be. It wouldnt cheapen Ghaz, rivalry between Orkz is a common thing. But we dont get that, we dont get a lot of anything really, special characters (we lost quite a few), model updates (we got buggies but thats not what the Ork range needed refreshing really), books and good rules. So we get lost in the sea of powerful Space Marine tropes and masses of characters all are special in someway or another. The Orkz as numerous as they are surprising have little to them, we have some characters in the fluff but none are really expanded on except with Orky feats such as sucking planets into space hulk sized shokk attack guns, looting whole planets, Orkz coming from different dimensions with extra dimensional tech (if anyone remembers that from the 4th and 5th ed Rule book) and a warboss going through the Warp just before he left and kills himself for a second shoota he loves.
We get quick short fluff sections but nothing in the range and depth as the Imperials. Marines can flaunt their flashy characters and what crazy feats they can do, but what can we do? Most of our characters are just plot devices for theirs. Red Waaagh! was going fine for the Orkz and was actually good, until they brought out Hour of the Wolf that killed it for me. They expanded on Mogrok's side of the Waaagh! and have him killed off at the end.
Fun fact for everyone, Mogrok got his head cut off and attached to a Goff Nobs body in the end of Hour of the Wolf. Its not just Ghaz.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Because 40k lore has become so awful, so cheesy and Saturday morning cartoon that even characters that have "died" come back to life. If Sanguinius' death wasn't so ingrained in the lore itself I wouldn't be surprised if he returned, one day. In fact I could see Dante turning into him or something equally banal.
As long as the Primarch has not died (and in some cases, even if they have *cough*Vulkan*cough*), they are presumed alive and now that Guilliman (not to mention Morty/Magnus) has returned to the tabletop (and the lore) the floodgates are open, so to speak. Russ could come back and as far as we know is alive. The same is not true of Sanguinius, who is slightly more 'dead'.
I agree with a lot of this, i personally still like the lore but you are right it is more of a 'PG' rating than the Heresy era. For all intents and purposes though all the loyalist Primarchs other than Gulliman are 'dead'. They are not in the current setting. Will they return? Anything is possible. With regards to the Chaos Primarchs however they have always been kicking about/getting banished/plotting like Pinky and the Brain.
Would hate to see Sanguinius return. I think it would diminish his sacrifice against Horus and the whole knowing he was going to die but doing it anyway aspect of things. If they were to bring him back i would bet The Sanguinor would be involved somehow.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Right so Primarch Vulkan could not take the M32 Beast in a straight up fight. He knew this. Ghaz has been repeatedly referenced as the Beast by GW. This PA is literally called "Saga of the Beast". What makes you think that Ghaz is not capable of going toe-to-toe with a Primarch in terms of martial prowess?
I agree that Ghaz would never kill a (none-perpetual) Primarch, because, well, plot armour. But that is not the same as lacking martial prowess.
Was The Beast not also rumored to be over 10 meters tall and capable of dual wielding battle cannons normally sported on Leman Russ Battle Tanks? How tall is Ghaz (pre-decap)? And is this also not a more recent development?
Ghaz could as easily be being refereed to as The Beast simply because he is the closest thing to the Beast there currently is; but that doesn't mean they are on the same scale. And in what way are they being compared? In terms of managing to draw clans together or in terms of personal size and martial prowess? Both? Neither? In some other way? It is possible to be compared in one sense but not the other. Calgar has been compared to Gulliman before, doesn't mean he's on a Primarch's scale, Space Wolves used to have a character called Ranulf who was touted as being stronger than Leman Russ; didn't mean it was true. As a football reference, younger players are getting compared to and being touted as; 'The Next Messi/Ronaldo' all the time. Doesn't mean any of them will ever be as good as they are. Ghaz doesn't have any feats to suggest he is capable of going toe-to-toe with a Primarch. Some hype calling him a Beast without much backing it up isn't going to change that in my eyes.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The named Greater Daemons, perhaps?
But your point is a brilliant one because it actually emphasises exactly what I've been saying and why I'm unhappy about this turn of events. Greater Daemons, named and otherwise, serve only as punching bags for the Imperium characters to flex their metaphysical muscles. Has Skarbrand, the most murderous and angry daemon going, who literally tried to kill the god of murder, actually killed a named character? Ever? Genuine question. Don't you think that's fething stupid and awful writing? How about that Khorne Bloodletter, Skulltaker, is it? Isn't it supposed to be one of the best duellists in the setting that is dispatched by Khorne to collect skulls of the worthy? How many named characters has it killed? Name one.
Poor Ghaz is getting turned into a Skarbrand type character here. He's even immune to beheading!
All of them in terms of combat prowess, the named ones in terms of rank and relevance.
And the way they treat Skarbrand and the other godly beings i agree is stupid. But Ragnar double deathing Ghaz is not the same as the likes of Calgar besting an Avatar of Khaine. The Avatar of Khaine, Greater Daemons and C'Tan are all godly beings of immense power who Primarchs (who thereselves are godly beings) have struggled with. They rightly should be out of the league of mere mortals (including Ghaz). The only edition their combat prowess was represented correctly was 2nd where Chapter Masters had a less than negligible chance of defeating one in combat. An Avatar or Bloodthirster could have been pitted against a squad of Ghazghul's and would have still won.
I still hate that the setting went from these godly beings like Angron and his Bloodthirster bodyguard needing the entire first company of Grey Knights to bring down (all of which died in the process) to Draigo soloing Mortarion and his entourage. Plot induced stupidity.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Is he as important as Russ? If the answer to that question is "no" then he isn't the TOP SPACE WOLF in terms of relevance, Russ is right? If you believe otherwise then fair enough but I'm not sure I agree (would be interested to discuss further mind).
In the current setting Ragnar is more important than Russ. Russ is a mere folktale and piece of history who's Saga is discussed over a campfire when Bjorn the Fell Handed is awoken from his centuries long slumbers, spoken of in the same breath as The Emperor of Man. They revere him as their gene father just as the Blood Angels revere Sanguinius or the Imperial Fists revere Rogal Dorn. But he is not more important to the current setting than the characters who are out there fighting the good fight, of which Ragnar is the Main Protagonist.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Absolutely, if he truly is the most relevant Space Wolf including all other Wolves then I will concede the point. My understanding is that Russ is by far the most relevant, what with the whole end-times thing and the fact that he's the Primarch?
In 30k Russ is the Top Space Wolf in terms of Rank and Relevance. In 40k it is Logan in terms of Rank and Ragnar in terms of Relevance in the sense that he is the Space Wolf Main Character and Chapter Champion. Just like Ghaz is the Ork Main Character and Ork 'Champion'.
flandarz wrote: It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.
Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?
Makari has always been a sidekick, Ragnar is "the original space wolf hero character"
as Divinevision notes, Ragnar and Ghaz are much the same in that they;re the original "special character" for that army.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Struggling to see why Ghaz "the Beast" and avatar of Gork and Mork is somehow ungodly while Primarch's are?
Because Ghaz is not himself divine. An Avatar of Khaine is literally a shard of the Khaine, the Eldar God of War and Murder. A Bloodthirster is literally a manifistation of Khorne. The Primarchs were literally bred from The God Emperor himself and share his genetics.
Ghaz is an Ork. A very powerful and influential Ork, and blessed by Gork and Mork in the same sense Abbadon is blessed by Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Nurgle. But he is not himself godly and never will be.
flandarz wrote: It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.
Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?
Makari has always been a sidekick, Ragnar is "the original space wolf hero character"
as Divinevision notes, Ragnar and Ghaz are much the same in that they;re the original "special character" for that army.
Ragnar was originally Russ. The model was literally a sculpt of Russ at one point. The fact that the Ragnar model and Ghaz model were both the OG special character is not much of a similarity between the two.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Struggling to see why Ghaz "the Beast" and avatar of Gork and Mork is somehow ungodly while Primarch's are?
Because Ghaz is not himself divine. An Avatar of Khaine is literally a shard of the Khaine, the Eldar God of War and Murder. A Bloodthirster is literally part of Khorne's essense. The Primarchs were literally bred from The God Emperor himself and share his genetics.
Ghaz is an Ork. A very powerful and influential Ork, and blessed by Gork and Mork in the same sense Abbadon is blessed by Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Nurgle. But he is not himself godly and never will be.
The Emperor isn't a literal God. That's what the Ecclesiarchy calls him (against his own will) because they're lunatic fanatics. Don't believe the hype. Therefore the Primarchs are not godly either.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The Emperor isn't a literal God. That's what the Ecclesiarchy calls him (against his own will) because they're lunatic fanatics. Don't believe the hype.
He might not have been a god before, but now? Through whatever means, he functionally *is* a deity, like it or not. I think Guilliman, one of the most staunch believers in the Emperor's non-godliness, ended up coming to a conclusion along the lines of "if it looks like a god, quacks like a god, am I sure it's not a god?"
Therefore the Primarchs are not godly either.
They're literally made with Warp stuff. They might not be gods, but they're certainly paracausal beings.
flandarz wrote: It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.
Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?
Makari has always been a sidekick, Ragnar is "the original space wolf hero character"
as Divinevision notes, Ragnar and Ghaz are much the same in that they;re the original "special character" for that army.
Ragnar was originally Russ. The model was literally a sculpt of Russ at one point. The fact that the Ragnar model and Ghaz model were both the OG special character is not much of a similarity between the two.
I would need a source for this as i don't believe it is the case. Ragnar's model was made at the same time as Ulrik and Njal for 2nd edition 40k in 1992 and has 'WOLF LORD' written on his tab (just as Ulrik has WOLF CHAPLAIN and Njal has RUNE PRIEST on theirs). Not 'GREAT WOLF' or 'LEMAN RUSS' (which was written on the Leman Russ Rogue Trader era model) as you would expect if he was ment to be Russ himself.
Regardless i don't see the relevance, the model at it's release was Ragnar and he has always been the Space Wolf Main Character for 40k, the exception to that being Russ in 30k/Rogue Trader.
The Emperor isn't a literal God. That's what the Ecclesiarchy calls him (against his own will) because they're lunatic fanatics. Don't believe the hype. Therefore the Primarchs are not godly either.
Avatars of Gods are perhaps different.
Debatable but regardless call him what you will, The Emperor was powerful enough that the Chaos Gods were frightened of his power and part of that power was passed onto the Primarchs.
flandarz wrote: It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.
Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?
Makari has always been a sidekick,
Nope. Makari was a stand-alone character in a short fiction piece in the first ork book, Waargh the Orks in 1990, a year before Andy Chambers makes a joke warboss to lead his Goff sample army for 'Ere We Go.
Makari doesn't show up as Ghaz's standard bearer until the first ork codex in 1994, and is summarily cut for the third edition codex.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Struggling to see why Ghaz "the Beast" and avatar of Gork and Mork is somehow ungodly while Primarch's are?
Because Ghaz is not himself divine. An Avatar of Khaine is literally a shard of the Khaine, the Eldar God of War and Murder. A Bloodthirster is literally a manifistation of Khorne. The Primarchs were literally bred from The God Emperor himself and share his genetics.
Ghaz is an Ork. A very powerful and influential Ork, and blessed by Gork and Mork in the same sense Abbadon is blessed by Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Nurgle. But he is not himself godly and never will be.
The Primarchs were also quite kill-able (aside from mr. perpetual), and rather than being banished to the Warp or Craftworld only to be resurrected like an Avatar or re-summoned like a Greater Daemon. . . most of them are dead.
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Sgt_Smudge wrote: Yeah, largely agreed. A duel wasn't needed - Ghaz, to me, isn't a duellist. He's a very tough, very powerful Ork, but his strength comes from his tactics. A clash of armies would have been so much better.
BrianDavion wrote: The nature of the emperor's divinity or not was something GW's purposefully played coy about.
No they haven't AFAIK. We even know where the Emperor came from now (wasn't he made of a merger/fusion of 10 or so mages?). The 'divine' thing is propaganda and always has been as far as I'm aware. It worries me if people don't get this anymore, because 40k has then become exactly what it was parodying.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: They're literally made with Warp stuff. They might not be gods, but they're certainly paracausal beings.
And Orks aren't?
Edit - I don't think we're going to reach a conclusion here gents. Marine players gonna defend a marine Captain beheading the greatest Ork to exist in the current setting, ironically claiming that 40k shouldn't/doesn't have Saturday morning cartoon level lore while defending the very thing that makes the lore like a Saturday morning cartoon. Truly a conundrum. I don't think we're going to get anywhere here. The argument is becoming circular and repetitive. 'B b b but the God Emperor and his sons!' is a pretty weak argument to pitch against someone who doesn't play Marines and finds much of their recent lore cringeworthy.
BrianDavion wrote: The nature of the emperor's divinity or not was something GW's purposefully played coy about.
No they haven't AFAIK. We even know where the Emperor came from now (wasn't he made of a merger/fusion of 10 or so mages?). The 'divine' thing is propaganda and always has been as far as I'm aware. It worries me if people don't get this anymore, because 40k has then become exactly what it was parodying.
.
we know the Emperor WASN'T a god, but there's some debate as to weather or not he has effectively ascended as a god of order or not. we, for example see people (like sisters of battle) seemingly channeling his power through their faith. is it the emperor? some strange cruel trick of chaos, is seperate warp entity that is formed from the worship of the emperor but is a distinct entity unto itself etc? GW's not exactly come forward and said what the answer is and likely never will
BrianDavion wrote: The nature of the emperor's divinity or not was something GW's purposefully played coy about.
No they haven't AFAIK. We even know where the Emperor came from now (wasn't he made of a merger/fusion of 10 or so mages?). The 'divine' thing is propaganda and always has been as far as I'm aware. It worries me if people don't get this anymore, because 40k has then become exactly what it was parodying.
.
we know the Emperor WASN'T a god, but there's some debate as to weather or not he has effectively ascended as a god of order or not. we, for example see people (like sisters of battle) seemingly channeling his power through their faith. is it the emperor? some strange cruel trick of chaos, is seperate warp entity that is formed from the worship of the emperor but is a distinct entity unto itself etc? GW's not exactly come forward and said what the answer is and likely never will
Well he certainly wasn't a god when he made the Primarchs which is the entire point of this getting raised here because the claim is that 'Primarchs are demigods because the Emperor imbued them with some of his magical god power when he made them'.
BrianDavion wrote: The nature of the emperor's divinity or not was something GW's purposefully played coy about.
No they haven't AFAIK. We even know where the Emperor came from now (wasn't he made of a merger/fusion of 10 or so mages?). The 'divine' thing is propaganda and always has been as far as I'm aware. It worries me if people don't get this anymore, because 40k has then become exactly what it was parodying.
.
we know the Emperor WASN'T a god, but there's some debate as to weather or not he has effectively ascended as a god of order or not. we, for example see people (like sisters of battle) seemingly channeling his power through their faith. is it the emperor? some strange cruel trick of chaos, is seperate warp entity that is formed from the worship of the emperor but is a distinct entity unto itself etc? GW's not exactly come forward and said what the answer is and likely never will
Well he certainly wasn't a god when he made the Primarchs which is the entire point of this getting raised here because the claim is that 'Primarchs are demigods because the Emperor imbued them with some of his magical god power when he made them'.
actually it's strongly implied that to make them they where infused with the power of the warp and that they're BASICLY quasi demon princes.
BrianDavion wrote: The nature of the emperor's divinity or not was something GW's purposefully played coy about.
No they haven't AFAIK. We even know where the Emperor came from now (wasn't he made of a merger/fusion of 10 or so mages?). The 'divine' thing is propaganda and always has been as far as I'm aware. It worries me if people don't get this anymore, because 40k has then become exactly what it was parodying.
.
we know the Emperor WASN'T a god, but there's some debate as to weather or not he has effectively ascended as a god of order or not. we, for example see people (like sisters of battle) seemingly channeling his power through their faith. is it the emperor? some strange cruel trick of chaos, is seperate warp entity that is formed from the worship of the emperor but is a distinct entity unto itself etc? GW's not exactly come forward and said what the answer is and likely never will
Well he certainly wasn't a god when he made the Primarchs which is the entire point of this getting raised here because the claim is that 'Primarchs are demigods because the Emperor imbued them with some of his magical god power when he made them'.
actually it's strongly implied that to make them they where infused with the power of the warp and that they're BASICLY quasi demon princes.
BrianDavion wrote: The nature of the emperor's divinity or not was something GW's purposefully played coy about.
No they haven't AFAIK. We even know where the Emperor came from now (wasn't he made of a merger/fusion of 10 or so mages?). The 'divine' thing is propaganda and always has been as far as I'm aware. It worries me if people don't get this anymore, because 40k has then become exactly what it was parodying.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: They're literally made with Warp stuff. They might not be gods, but they're certainly paracausal beings.
And Orks aren't?
Edit - I don't think we're going to reach a conclusion here gents. Marine players gonna defend a marine Captain beheading the greatest Ork to exist in the current setting, ironically claiming that 40k shouldn't/doesn't have Saturday morning cartoon level lore while defending the very thing that makes the lore like a Saturday morning cartoon. Truly a conundrum. I don't think we're going to get anywhere here. The argument is becoming circular and repetitive. 'B b b but the God Emperor and his sons!' is a pretty weak argument to pitch against someone who doesn't play Marines and finds much of their recent lore cringeworthy.
Agreed, likewise some people are going vehemently declare that ghaz shouldn't lose a fight to someone who isn't a "faction leading character", regardless of their melee prowess nor pedigree in the fluff. Likewise a line of "but they called him the beast!!!" isn't magically enough to make him go around stomping everyone sub primarch level into the dust.
For what it's worth, I'd have been happy with both or either being permanently killed. It would have been nice for them to face once, ragnar get whooped, go back and get his upgrade then round 2 lop of ghazzy's head and die in the process. I'd kinda like it if ghaz then became a futurama-esque head in a jar, leading the ork race from some mech body.
I think it would be good to make a list of Space Marine characters who could beat Ghaz.
Dante - he is 1100 years old! And a total badass.
Mephiston - He is space marine dracula! And conquered the red thirst!
Sanguinor - The avatar of Sanguinious!
Bjorn the Fell Handed - Been alive since the Great Crusade! Actually met the Big E
Logan Grimnir - He is the chapter master of the Wolves, so if Ragnar can do it...
Ragnar Blackmane - as shown here
Marneus Calgar - the dude punched out an Avatar, of course he can take Ghaz. Plus he has been souped up with primaris juice!
Guilliman - Obviously, a Primarch is the most dangerous thing in the setting
Cypher - he has been alive since the Heresy!
Kaldor Draigo - I mean if the guy can slay multiple Greater Daemons, Ghaz should be no problem.
Someone like Helbrecht could probably not beat him in a duel but would definitely win a space batttle against him.
Then of course you have the leader of the Custodes, obviously could take him down too.
After that, I guess most other Chapter Masters and captains would get killed by Ghaz. Pedro Kantor, Lysander, Shrike and so on. Not really tough enough to take Ghaz on alone, they would likely need a small squad of veterans to do it.
And of course Chaos Marines wise, well, most of their heroes could kill Ghaz
Abbadon - Obviously, he has a daemon sword and the talon of Horus!
Kharn - Yeah, he is the chosen of the God of War
Mortarian and Magnus - Daemon Primarch anyone?
Lucius the Eternal - would probably lose, despite being an awesome duelist, but then Ghaz would turn into him.
So like you can see that most Space Marines can kill Ghaz. It is therefore logical that lesser warlords can be killed by lesser chapter masters. Ergo, Orks are not really a threat. If the Imperium of Man did not have so much busy work on, it could wipe out the Orks for sure.
Da Boss wrote: I think it would be good to make a list of Space Marine characters who could beat Ghaz.
Spoiler:
Dante - he is 1100 years old! And a total badass.
Mephiston - He is space marine dracula! And conquered the red thirst!
Sanguinor - The avatar of Sanguinious!
Bjorn the Fell Handed - Been alive since the Great Crusade! Actually met the Big E
Logan Grimnir - He is the chapter master of the Wolves, so if Ragnar can do it...
Ragnar Blackmane - as shown here
Marneus Calgar - the dude punched out an Avatar, of course he can take Ghaz. Plus he has been souped up with primaris juice!
Guilliman - Obviously, a Primarch is the most dangerous thing in the setting
Cypher - he has been alive since the Heresy!
Kaldor Draigo - I mean if the guy can slay multiple Greater Daemons, Ghaz should be no problem.
Someone like Helbrecht could probably not beat him in a duel but would definitely win a space batttle against him.
Then of course you have the leader of the Custodes, obviously could take him down too.
After that, I guess most other Chapter Masters and captains would get killed by Ghaz. Pedro Kantor, Lysander, Shrike and so on. Not really tough enough to take Ghaz on alone, they would likely need a small squad of veterans to do it.
And of course Chaos Marines wise, well, most of their heroes could kill Ghaz
Abbadon - Obviously, he has a daemon sword and the talon of Horus!
Kharn - Yeah, he is the chosen of the God of War
Mortarian and Magnus - Daemon Primarch anyone?
Lucius the Eternal - would probably lose, despite being an awesome duelist, but then Ghaz would turn into him.
So like you can see that most Space Marines can kill Ghaz. It is therefore logical that lesser warlords can be killed by lesser chapter masters. Ergo, Orks are not really a threat. If the Imperium of Man did not have so much busy work on, it could wipe out the Orks for sure.
Boss, you aren't thinking big enough buddy. One of the (many) arguments here is that Ghaz' cannot stand in the same arena as the Primarchs, you silly dum dum, because they have a spark of the Emperor's divinity within them.
Now unless I'm mistaken, every single Custodes also has some of the Emperor's 'spark' within them . So they'd all obviously flatten him.
Now (again correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm no marine expert) but doesn't every Marine have a part of their Primarch within their very genes? Now if the Primarchs all have this 'spark of divinity' and the Marines all have part of their Primarch's genetic material within them, then obviously it stands to reason that, actually, every single Marine in the 40k setting can, and should, beat Ghaz'.
something interesting I just read that Mad Doc Grotsnik posted in another thread is that in a Xenos Biology (an old, rare BL art book) put forward the theory that Ghaz is simply an inevitable Oddboy Leader Class.
Which would be quite interesting if so! Orkz have a Oddboy for anything and everything so it would make sense to have an Oddboy leader gene when Orkz hit a certain critical mass. So not just a "Prime-Ork" but one that was coded into the DNA of the Orkz to push them further into a more organised race with greater technology and societal means to conqueror the galaxy. Like when the Beast sent the Ork ambassador to Terra to discuss terms for surrender and the Snakebite Agri World where they farmed Humans as cattle but the Humans accepted it as it was either that or dying anyway.
That way we dont have to make comparisons to Primarchs and Greater Daemons. Ghaz in his own unique field. And just for clarification sake, Ghaz is the self entitled Prophet of Gork and Mork, he isnt an Avatar. For all we know he is actually extremely psychic or just lucky. Or he could very well be the Prophet. We simply have to take his word for it and anyone who disagrees with him gets headbutted.
I would leave the Prime-Ork / Primarch comparisons at the door, they arent the same beast (pun not intended). Also im pretty sure its stated in one of the 30k books that the Primarchs are Demi-Gods of war. That could be figuratively or literally, but they are all still in a different weight category than any other MORTAL creature in the Galaxy.
What Guilliman represents is what you SHOULD compare Ghaz too, not what Roboute CAN do. Maybe on tabletop Ghaz will hulk smash Girlyman into the shadow realm but the tabletop doesnt accurately represent the lore.
Also stop with comparing him to Chapter Masters A Space Marine is solely a tool to be used by the Imperium, you may have the odd Chapter Master/Supreme Grand Master governing one half of the Galaxy but that isnt the norm for ALL Space Marines. All those prementioned characters have stacks upon stacks of lore, books, codex entries to flesh them up. Ghaz doesnt. Its a null point. Mephiston may very well be the Lord of Death, but Ghaz hasnt had the same scope of background done on him. We know his rough achievements and goals, not his 1 to 1 combat prowess. For all we know Ghaz has done an Angron and flipped a Warhound Titan by the foot. Or he could of throttle an Old Man Russ to death on some forgotten backwater planet years ago but know one would know as Orkz wouldnt even care or know who Russ was or tell everyone in the known galaxy about it.
Its quite pointless comparing the feats of Space Marines, the poster children of the setting, to a Xenos faction leader. Space Marines from as lowly as scout like Naaman to I dunno the 3rd company Captain of the Ironhands, will always have more lore dedicated to them via BL than Orkz ever will get. Its never going to be a fair comparison as Ghaz sadly just isnt as explored as these protagonist characters. We have what, 30 or so pages at BEST detailing Ghaz from Yoof to Warlord, where these Space Marines have in excess of around 200+ from a series of novels.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Yeah, largely agreed. A duel wasn't needed - Ghaz, to me, isn't a duellist. He's a very tough, very powerful Ork, but his strength comes from his tactics. A clash of armies would have been so much better.
After all this time defending the duel, eh?
I wasn't defending the narrative necessity of it, no. I was defending the idea that the most popular and oldest Space Wolf character could fight the most popular and oldest Ork character to a mutual kill. Should it have been Ragnar? Should Ghaz be a Prime-Ork by now? In my opinion, no and yes respectively, but that's the hand we were dealt.
An Actual Englishman wrote:We even know where the Emperor came from now (wasn't he made of a merger/fusion of 10 or so mages?).
No, we don't. That's one of the many theories, but we do not have a concrete, or even semi-concrete source of the Emperor's power. Some things suggest he's just a super powerful psyker. Others say he's a DaoT weapon gone rogue. Others say Malcador is actually the true power. For all we know, he very well could have started as a god (though I'm not fond of that myself).
What is pretty much known is that, even if he was or wasn't divine to start with, his influences and power since being interred on the Throne are functionally divine, even if he may not be a true god.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: They're literally made with Warp stuff. They might not be gods, but they're certainly paracausal beings.
And Orks aren't?
Nowhere to the same degree.
An Ork produces a gestalt field with minor belief-based paracausal powers. Sanguinius can fly, despite him knowing it should be impossible for him to do. Every Primarch exudes an aura which compels most nearby beings to kneel or submit to them. Many others boast supernatural effects (Dorn can produce an anti-Warp aura, Sanguinius can fly, Corax can Wraithslip and can literally turn himself into flocks of ravens, Angron used to be able to absorb the pain of others).
I'm not saying they're gods, but they do have godly powers.
Marine players gonna defend a marine Captain beheading the greatest Ork to exist in the current setting
The greatest Ork to exist is the Beast of Beasts, not Ghaz.
Check your bias.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Well he certainly wasn't a god when he made the Primarchs which is the entire point of this getting raised here because the claim is that 'Primarchs are demigods because the Emperor imbued them with some of his magical god power when he made them'.
Is anyone claiming that? The Primarchs are demigodly because they're literally infused with that sweet sweet warp juice - not the Emperor's power.
For what it's worth, I also class Greater Daemons and suchlike as demigods, just for consistency.
Insectum7 wrote:Which are still not the same as a Greater Daemon. Also, Primarchs are very not immortal.
Well, barring Vulkan.
Besides, Daemon Princes aren't *truly* immortal - they can die True Deaths. I think the trade-off is that Primarchs have similar powers to (most) Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons and can maintain a physical form, but can be killed easier, whereas Daemons can just manifest in the Warp after death, but struggle to maintain corporeal form.
Hence, Primarchs are pretty similar to Greater Daemons, but not identical. Regardless, I think, given the paracausal abilities of Primarchs and their warpy origin, I'm happy calling them demigods, even if the Emperor wasn't.
Besides, can we definitely say that Ghaz isn't suffused with the power of Gork and Mork?
I thought it was pretty much confirmed he was suffused with their power? Not that it makes him invulnerable.
Dudeface wrote:Agreed, likewise some people are going vehemently declare that ghaz shouldn't lose a fight to someone who isn't a "faction leading character", regardless of their melee prowess nor pedigree in the fluff. Likewise a line of "but they called him the beast!!!" isn't magically enough to make him go around stomping everyone sub primarch level into the dust.
Well, not wrong - if people are going to swing around the Bias Sword, they should know it cuts both ways.
Important thing is to look at the facts we're given (which we don't even have all of them yet).
I'd kinda like it if ghaz then became a futurama-esque head in a jar, leading the ork race from some mech body.
Perhaps not Ghaz, but I'd honestly love a Ork character who's a head in a jar, carried by a Gretchin. Maybe Nazdreg accidentally blew himself up? Have a nigh unkillable character (I don't know, give him some kind of "sneaky" rule due to his size) who sucks in combat (he is a head in a jar) but give out tons of buffing abilities to the army (Nazdreg being stupid filthy rich and 'diktatin'' how to make beefier guns).
Da Boss wrote:I think it would be good to make a list of Space Marine characters who could beat Ghaz.
Spoiler:
Dante - he is 1100 years old! And a total badass.
Mephiston - He is space marine dracula! And conquered the red thirst!
Sanguinor - The avatar of Sanguinious!
Bjorn the Fell Handed - Been alive since the Great Crusade! Actually met the Big E
Logan Grimnir - He is the chapter master of the Wolves, so if Ragnar can do it...
Ragnar Blackmane - as shown here
Marneus Calgar - the dude punched out an Avatar, of course he can take Ghaz. Plus he has been souped up with primaris juice!
Guilliman - Obviously, a Primarch is the most dangerous thing in the setting
Cypher - he has been alive since the Heresy!
Kaldor Draigo - I mean if the guy can slay multiple Greater Daemons, Ghaz should be no problem.
Someone like Helbrecht could probably not beat him in a duel but would definitely win a space batttle against him.
Then of course you have the leader of the Custodes, obviously could take him down too.
After that, I guess most other Chapter Masters and captains would get killed by Ghaz. Pedro Kantor, Lysander, Shrike and so on. Not really tough enough to take Ghaz on alone, they would likely need a small squad of veterans to do it.
And of course Chaos Marines wise, well, most of their heroes could kill Ghaz
Abbadon - Obviously, he has a daemon sword and the talon of Horus!
Kharn - Yeah, he is the chosen of the God of War
Mortarian and Magnus - Daemon Primarch anyone?
Lucius the Eternal - would probably lose, despite being an awesome duelist, but then Ghaz would turn into him.
So like you can see that most Space Marines can kill Ghaz. It is therefore logical that lesser warlords can be killed by lesser chapter masters. Ergo, Orks are not really a threat. If the Imperium of Man did not have so much busy work on, it could wipe out the Orks for sure.
Yeah, I'd say they can all beat Ghaz. But, I'd also say that Ghaz could beat all of them in return - if Ragnar can beat Ghaz, someone a "tier" higher than himself, Ghaz should be able to defeat a Primarch, to a mutual kill, like what Ragnar did to him. That doesn't mean Ghaz is equal to a Primarch, but it does mean he's capable, with a great deal of luck and underdoggedness, to inflict a mutual kill.
The sword swings both ways - I'm happy for Ghaz to have made mutual kills on other Space Marine heroes. It doesn't mean that Ragnar shouldn't be capable too.
But hey, let's keep assuming that Space Marine players hate their guys to lose.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Boss, you aren't thinking big enough buddy. One of the (many) arguments here is that Ghaz' cannot stand in the same arena as the Primarchs, you silly dum dum, because they have a spark of the Emperor's divinity within them.
Did anyone say that? I remember points that Ghaz *wasn't* on the Primarch's tier, but not that he couldn't hurt them. And I certainly don't support the Primarchs having the Emperor's divinity - they have a spark of the Warp's divinity.
Now unless I'm mistaken, every single Custodes also has some of the Emperor's 'spark' within them . So they'd all obviously flatten him.
Do they?
Now (again correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm no marine expert) but doesn't every Marine have a part of their Primarch within their very genes? Now if the Primarchs all have this 'spark of divinity' and the Marines all have part of their Primarch's genetic material within them, then obviously it stands to reason that, actually, every single Marine in the 40k setting can, and should, beat Ghaz'.
Not quite, but I'm glad you preface with not pretending to be a Marine expert.
The geneseed isn't actually infused with Warp power, so the actual "demigodly" part of the Primarch isn't passed down. Furthermore, while the geneseed is passed down from the Primarch to the Marine, it's nowhere near as potent down the centuries.
Basically, while the geneseed does give power, it's nowhere near the same "spark of divinity" that the Primarchs possessed. Instead, it's has more religious and spiritual significance.
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deffrekka wrote: Ghaz in his own unique field. And just for clarification sake, Ghaz is the self entitled Prophet of Gork and Mork, he isnt an Avatar. For all we know he is actually extremely psychic or just lucky. Or he could very well be the Prophet. We simply have to take his word for it and anyone who disagrees with him gets headbutted.
I would leave the Prime-Ork / Primarch comparisons at the door, they arent the same beast (pun not intended). Also im pretty sure its stated in one of the 30k books that the Primarchs are Demi-Gods of war. That could be figuratively or literally, but they are all still in a different weight category than any other MORTAL creature in the Galaxy.
Yeah, can't say I argue with this.
Ghaz isn't the Beast, but he's not a basic Warboss either. I'd say he is capable of going toe-to-toe with a Primarch, but he'd be disadvantaged.
Well, yeah. That is what I am saying. For some reason it seems to make people annoyed, but it is literally just what they themselves say - Space Marines are the main, protagonist, first class faction, and Xenos factions are just NPC foils to them, second class and lucky if they get an update.
It is weird. Sometimes, people make the argument that Xenos is not second class, but then those same people make arguments that show that Xenos IS second class. Just be consistent and accept the game and it's "lore" for what it is. A Space Marine party of wish fulfillment and power fantasy.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: They're literally made with Warp stuff. They might not be gods, but they're certainly paracausal beings.
And Orks aren't?
Nowhere to the same degree.
An Ork produces a gestalt field with minor belief-based paracausal powers. Sanguinius can fly, despite him knowing it should be impossible for him to do. Every Primarch exudes an aura which compels most nearby beings to kneel or submit to them. Many others boast supernatural effects (Dorn can produce an anti-Warp aura, Sanguinius can fly, Corax can Wraithslip and can literally turn himself into flocks of ravens, Angron used to be able to absorb the pain of others).
I'm not saying they're gods, but they do have godly powers.
Those "godly" powers are all actually just "warp" powers. Also what's this rubbish about Primarchs exuding an aura that compels "most nearby beings to kneel or submit to them"? Where the hell is that from?
Marine players gonna defend a marine Captain beheading the greatest Ork to exist in the current setting
The greatest Ork to exist is the Beast of Beasts, not Ghaz.
Check your bias.
Highlighted the point you missed. Check your reading.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Well he certainly wasn't a god when he made the Primarchs which is the entire point of this getting raised here because the claim is that 'Primarchs are demigods because the Emperor imbued them with some of his magical god power when he made them'.
Is anyone claiming that? The Primarchs are demigodly because they're literally infused with that sweet sweet warp juice - not the Emperor's power.
For what it's worth, I also class Greater Daemons and suchlike as demigods, just for consistency.
Your opinion is worth less and less as this discussion continues, as far as I'm concerned. I'm baffled by your repeated hypocrisy and random leaps of non-logic. Orks were created by a race of fething 'Old ones', just like the Eldar. They are so touched by the warp that they can control reality itself. Yey you claim that, for some reason known only to yourself, that they "aren't the same as the Primarchs who are infused with "sweet sweet warp juice". What do you think WAAAAAGGGHHH!! energy is (that is present in EVERY ORK, I might add) you grot?
Hence, Primarchs are pretty similar to Greater Daemons, but not identical. Regardless, I think, given the paracausal abilities of Primarchs and their warpy origin, I'm happy calling them demigods, even if the Emperor wasn't.
You can call them what you like. It doesn't make your opinion correct or even sensible.
Besides, can we definitely say that Ghaz isn't suffused with the power of Gork and Mork?
I thought it was pretty much confirmed he was suffused with their power? Not that it makes him invulnerable.
But how is this any different to a Primarch being "suffused with that sweet sweet warp juice"?! Again, what do you think the "power of Gork and Mork" is?
Yeah, I'd say they can all beat Ghaz. But, I'd also say that Ghaz could beat all of them in return - if Ragnar can beat Ghaz, someone a "tier" higher than himself, Ghaz should be able to defeat a Primarch, to a mutual kill, like what Ragnar did to him. That doesn't mean Ghaz is equal to a Primarch, but it does mean he's capable, with a great deal of luck and underdoggedness, to inflict a mutual kill.
I don't believe you'd be happy with this at all, actually. You simply know that there's no risk of this happening because GW love their Primarchs too much. IF you genuinely would be happy for Ghaz to mutually kill Guilliman, fair enough.
But hey, let's keep assuming that Space Marine players hate their guys to lose.
You are kinda proving they do in your defence of this very piece of lore....
An Actual Englishman wrote:Boss, you aren't thinking big enough buddy. One of the (many) arguments here is that Ghaz' cannot stand in the same arena as the Primarchs, you silly dum dum, because they have a spark of the Emperor's divinity within them.
Did anyone say that? I remember points that Ghaz *wasn't* on the Primarch's tier, but not that he couldn't hurt them. And I certainly don't support the Primarchs having the Emperor's divinity - they have a spark of the Warp's divinity.
It's the same thing. You've literally just replaced "Emperor's" with "Warp".
Now unless I'm mistaken, every single Custodes also has some of the Emperor's 'spark' within them . So they'd all obviously flatten him.
Do they?
Yes. Read "Aegis of the Emperor" rule.
The geneseed isn't actually infused with Warp power, so the actual "demigodly" part of the Primarch isn't passed down. Furthermore, while the geneseed is passed down from the Primarch to the Marine, it's nowhere near as potent down the centuries.
Basically, while the geneseed does give power, it's nowhere near the same "spark of divinity" that the Primarchs possessed. Instead, it's has more religious and spiritual significance.
Of course. Silly me. :eyeroll:
Ghaz isn't the Beast, but he's not a basic Warboss either. I'd say he is capable of going toe-to-toe with a Primarch, but he'd be disadvantaged.
Honestly? If this is true then fair enough, I can't argue with that. If you'd take the lore swings both way then I can see why this particular circumstance with Ghaz and Ragnar makes sense to you.
BTW looking at the two stat lines, just FYI, both Ghaz and Ragnar are capable of one shotting each other, although Ghaz would have to flub some armor save rolls to be taken out reliably. Ragnar could kill him, but if you put them both on table with their current stats (not their "new and improved" stats I mean their pre-upgrade current codex stats_ I'd be BETTING on Ghaz, but wou;dn't be utterly flabber ghasted if Ragnar won.
Yeah, I'm not denying that. I'm saying that innate Warp powers (not psychic powers) are demi-godly though.
Obviously, that's my interpretation and semantics, but they're equally as valid as any other interpretation.
Also what's this rubbish about Primarchs exuding an aura that compels "most nearby beings to kneel or submit to them"? Where the hell is that from?
Most HH books - when mortals, and even Space Marines, come near to a Primarch, they nearly all experience 'transhuman dread', and feel overcome with emotion at the sheer presence of a Primarch.
Highlighted the point you missed. Check your reading.
My bad. All the same, "greatest Ork in the current setting" doesn't necessarily change his rating compared to other factions. Calgar is no longer the "greatest Ultramarines in the current setting", but his power level hasn't changed.
To put it another way, imagine if I placed Calgar and Ghaz at the No.1 spot in both their respective factions, and said they were comparable in strength/fighting (which I don't think is a too far fetched claim). Now, Guilliman comes along, and demotes Calgar to No.2 spot. Is Ghaz now equal to Guilliman in power, and is Calgar now weaker? No, he's just been eclipsed by someone more powerful than himself, but he's still the same. Therefore, the Ork No.1 is equivalent to the Ultramarine No.2 - purely because Guilliman is much stronger than Calgar.
What's my point? Power rating and stuff doesn't always have to be directly equivalent. The most powerful X might not be the equal to the most powerful Y (and yes, Space Marines lose out here too - the most powerful Chapter Master isn't equivalent to the most powerful Custodian, or Greater Daemon).
Your opinion is worth less and less as this discussion continues, as far as I'm concerned.
Likewise - glad we can agree on something!
Orks were created by a race of fething 'Old ones', just like the Eldar.
Weren't humans too? And, just because they were created by the Old Ones, it doesn't make them inherently "more" paracausal.
They are so touched by the warp that they can control reality itself.
To a pretty minor degree though - it's not like they can just sprout wings and fly.
I'm not denying their paracausality, but I am saying it's nowhere near as influential as a Primarch's.
Yey you claim that, for some reason known only to yourself, that they "aren't the same as the Primarchs who are infused with "sweet sweet warp juice". What do you think WAAAAAGGGHHH!! energy is (that is present in EVERY ORK, I might add) you grot?
Less sweet sweet Warp juice, that has a much less pronounced effect.
Waaagh! energy is latent psychic energy, not "my body is literally made up of warp material".
You can call them what you like. It doesn't make your opinion correct or even sensible.
Perhaps: but it's just as valid as your own opinions on the matter. It's not like there's an objective definition, is there?
I don't believe you'd be happy with this at all, actually.
I mean, if you want to go ahead and put me under a lie detector, or read my thoughts, go ahead, but other than that, you're just projecting there, bud. Just to be clear, you'd also be fine if I started commenting on all your comments and saying "well AKSHUALLY you REALLY believe THIS, because *I* know your brain better than even YOU".
Obviously not. It's just projecting nonsense.
You simply know that there's no risk of this happening because GW love their Primarchs too much.
Oh, that;s very true. But, as we've seen with Ghaz, they weren't content to kill him properly either. I'd say it's more likely GW don't want to properly kill any of their characters.
IF you genuinely would be happy for Ghaz to mutually kill Guilliman, fair enough.
Fair enough indeed.
But hey, let's keep assuming that Space Marine players hate their guys to lose.
You are kinda proving they do in your defence of this very piece of lore....
You know I only support this because Ragnar also loses, right? If Ragnar had just won outright, I'd be calling it out as well.
And I certainly don't support the Primarchs having the Emperor's divinity - they have a spark of the Warp's divinity.
It's the same thing. You've literally just replaced "Emperor's" with "Warp".
Yeah? There's a difference between the two. What's wrong with that?
Now unless I'm mistaken, every single Custodes also has some of the Emperor's 'spark' within them . So they'd all obviously flatten him.
Do they?
Yes. Read "Aegis of the Emperor" rule.
Eh, I take that to mean that they're just incredibly well protected through biological/alchemical enhancements. But, if not - doesn't that prove your argument that the Emperor IS divine?
I don't think he was divine (at least, not until after the Heresy), but the excerpt you post there implies he is. So, what's your take on the matter?
The geneseed isn't actually infused with Warp power, so the actual "demigodly" part of the Primarch isn't passed down. Furthermore, while the geneseed is passed down from the Primarch to the Marine, it's nowhere near as potent down the centuries.
Basically, while the geneseed does give power, it's nowhere near the same "spark of divinity" that the Primarchs possessed. Instead, it's has more religious and spiritual significance.
Of course. Silly me. :eyeroll:
You asked for clarification. I provided it.
Ghaz isn't the Beast, but he's not a basic Warboss either. I'd say he is capable of going toe-to-toe with a Primarch, but he'd be disadvantaged.
Honestly? If this is true then fair enough, I can't argue with that. If you'd take the lore swings both way then I can see why this particular circumstance with Ghaz and Ragnar makes sense to you.
Yes, honestly, and yes, it does put my position of Ghaz and Ragnar into context. It would be incredibly hypocritical of me to say otherwise. Glad we got somewhere.
What actually defines a God in 40k? An alpha level pysker on some backwater planet on the fringe of Imperium space could be a God to the population of that planet. And if we look at D&D deities, they arent immortal either. So to the greater population of the 40k setting they are seen as demi-gods. The Chaos gods themselves were little more than warp echoes really to begin with.... Ghaz may one day reach "Prime-Ork" level, but he still isnt on the same power scale as any Primarch.
I love Ghaz, but id rather not have him as a cheap knock of some long dead Ork. I dont care if he is a Prime-Ork, he doesnt need to act or do what the original Beast did. You have to remember, Ghaz's dubbing of the Beast was given to him during Armageddon and 99.9999999% of the Imperium and Ork race wouldnt have any idea who the Beast actually was or if he existed. The only correlation the two have is sharing a title, everything else pretty much ends there. Remember Ghaz had his title waaaaaaaay before the Beast Arises series was even a thing. Its just a fitting name, nothing else. I dont link Ghaz with the Beast of m.32, and I dont think GW were trying to imply that he is a Prime-Ork neither. He is on his way to being one, but he isnt one yet.
And Im not saying Ghaz couldnt mop the floor with Guilliman, but its not a likely thing to happen. Unless some serious plot armour was involved, I cant see it happening.
And also, Ghaz doesnt strike me as the type of Ork to go for the head of the snake. He wants strong opponents, he wants unending war. He doesnt go out of his way to make duels, hes the kind of Ork that sets a match on flame and throws it on the gasoline, then walks off and sets another place ablaze.
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Da Boss wrote: This whole "Prime-Ork" thing is really cringey to me. Obvious primarch pun.
And there have always been huge, powerful Ork warlords. Giving one of them special stauts because he was in a series of novels is...meh.
Yeah I find it cringey too, whenever I watch Valrak I have to grit my teeth haha!!!
The word "Prime-ork" is absolutely cringey because it is an Imperial designation of an Orkish phenomenon. Indeed it is supposed to mirror "Primarch" because that's what humanity (in the story) approximated their power to.
An Ork probably wouldn't have a specific word for the Beast, excluding "Boss" and "Beast". My preferred designation is "Beast" Ork. It sounds more Orky.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The word "Prime-ork" is absolutely cringey because it is an Imperial designation of an Orkish phenomenon. Indeed it is supposed to mirror "Primarch" because that's what humanity (in the story) approximated their power to.
An Ork probably wouldn't have a specific word for the Beast, excluding "Boss" and "Beast". My preferred designation is "Beast" Ork. It sounds more Orky.
Most Ork tech is cringeworthy, brutalised versions of pre-existing tech. I think it makes sense that they’d occasionally pick up a name to butcher to go with it, happens in most languages. It’s also possible “Prime-Ork” is a human term that the Orks just kind of picked up on and adopted as a title because they dug the fear and awe their victims said it with.
Lucius the Eternal - would probably lose, despite being an awesome duelist, but then Ghaz would turn into him.
Now that poses a question! Would he? Would slaanesh' power be able to overcome ork emotions?
Furthermore, this could be asked of the other xenos if they happened to kill lucius.. Eldar probably would be affected.. Tau? No idea, don't care enough to know any of their lore.. Orks and tyranids though? Maybe a question for a thread of its own.
Lucius the Eternal - would probably lose, despite being an awesome duelist, but then Ghaz would turn into him.
Now that poses a question! Would he? Would slaanesh' power be able to overcome ork emotions?
Furthermore, this could be asked of the other xenos if they happened to kill lucius.. Eldar probably would be affected.. Tau? No idea, don't care enough to know any of their lore.. Orks and tyranids though? Maybe a question for a thread of its own.
I don't think Ghaz would get much enjoyment out of killing a soft, purple, kinky 'umie, myself. He doesn't know that Lucius is some storied legend and he doesn't care.
He's probably one of the few 40k characters that could perma-kill him, TBF.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The word "Prime-ork" is absolutely cringey because it is an Imperial designation of an Orkish phenomenon. Indeed it is supposed to mirror "Primarch" because that's what humanity (in the story) approximated their power to.
An Ork probably wouldn't have a specific word for the Beast, excluding "Boss" and "Beast". My preferred designation is "Beast" Ork. It sounds more Orky.
Most Ork tech is cringeworthy, brutalised versions of pre-existing tech. I think it makes sense that they’d occasionally pick up a name to butcher to go with it, happens in most languages. It’s also possible “Prime-Ork” is a human term that the Orks just kind of picked up on and adopted as a title because they dug the fear and awe their victims said it with.
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"
I thought the trick was if the opponent felt "pride" in killing Lucius? Thinking about it the other outcome is the classic "Ghaz beats him but doesn't kill him because he loves the scrap", which will also stop Lucius spawning.
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"
I thought the trick was if the opponent felt "pride" in killing Lucius? Thinking about it the other outcome is the classic "Ghaz beats him but doesn't kill him because he loves the scrap", which will also stop Lucius spawning.
the exact wording, (per codex chaos 8 II) is "whomever kills him and suffers even a moment of sastifaction" Ghaz (or anyone else who doesn't know they just beat a legend) might not feel partiuclarly proud but you'd useally feel a small degree of sastifaction at a kill.
BrianDavion wrote: BTW looking at the two stat lines, just FYI, both Ghaz and Ragnar are capable of one shotting each other, although Ghaz would have to flub some armor save rolls to be taken out reliably. Ragnar could kill him, but if you put them both on table with their current stats (not their "new and improved" stats I mean their pre-upgrade current codex stats_ I'd be BETTING on Ghaz, but wou;dn't be utterly flabber ghasted if Ragnar won.
this isn't "a guardsman beating Abaddon"
Clearly Ragnar killed him and then the ork player used ‘Orkz iz never beat’ strat to make the defeated Ghaz do a round of attacks which killed Ragnar in reply. The result of the duel was so entertaining it got written in to the lore.
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"
I thought the trick was if the opponent felt "pride" in killing Lucius? Thinking about it the other outcome is the classic "Ghaz beats him but doesn't kill him because he loves the scrap", which will also stop Lucius spawning.
the exact wording, (per codex chaos 8 II) is "whomever kills him and suffers even a moment of sastifaction" Ghaz (or anyone else who doesn't know they just beat a legend) might not feel partiuclarly proud but you'd useally feel a small degree of sastifaction at a kill.
Dno man, for Orks killing is as natural as breathing. They are truly neutral. Do you feel satisfaction at taking a breath?
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"
I thought the trick was if the opponent felt "pride" in killing Lucius? Thinking about it the other outcome is the classic "Ghaz beats him but doesn't kill him because he loves the scrap", which will also stop Lucius spawning.
the exact wording, (per codex chaos 8 II) is "whomever kills him and suffers even a moment of sastifaction" Ghaz (or anyone else who doesn't know they just beat a legend) might not feel partiuclarly proud but you'd useally feel a small degree of sastifaction at a kill.
Dno man, for Orks killing is as natural as breathing. They are truly neutral. Do you feel satisfaction at taking a breath?
except Orks enjoy fighting. That's kinda a big part of their identity. win, lose it's all good fun to the Orks. or did the latest codex retcon that?
Considering that slaanesh will just bring him back anyways it hardly matters. As long as Ghaz doesn’t destroy Lucius’s soul, Slaanesh can just find another meat bag for Lucius to possess,. The warp doesn’t have to follow its own rules because they’re all made up anyway.
On the plus side, Ghaz’s new rules make it almost impossible for him to lose a straight up duel to anyone except maybe a demon primarch. So rule wise, almost any character except maybe Magnus is screwed unless they have support.
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"
Not all killing is done for fun, if he just wants you to shut up he will krump you. Or if you happen to be in his way and he bats you to the side. Ghaz always has had that thing of "Ive got more important stuff to deal with" than duking down combatants for the fun of it. Thats what the boys are for. Ghaz doesnt mukk about.
BrianDavion wrote: BTW looking at the two stat lines, just FYI, both Ghaz and Ragnar are capable of one shotting each other, although Ghaz would have to flub some armor save rolls to be taken out reliably. Ragnar could kill him, but if you put them both on table with their current stats (not their "new and improved" stats I mean their pre-upgrade current codex stats_ I'd be BETTING on Ghaz, but wou;dn't be utterly flabber ghasted if Ragnar won.
this isn't "a guardsman beating Abaddon"
Clearly Ragnar killed him and then the ork player used ‘Orkz iz never beat’ strat to make the defeated Ghaz do a round of attacks which killed Ragnar in reply. The result of the duel was so entertaining it got written in to the lore.
Except Ragnar only ever did 4 wounds in the fight phase, so Ghaz smushed him good and proper if we go off Ghaz's leaked profile that is
GW wrote:We've never seen rules for the Orks of the Great Crusade era. What we do know of them, is that there were some that were probably of comparable size to this big guy, and they were almost a match for Primarchs and the Emperor himself.
At the Time of the Great Crusade, we know that the Imperium had over a dozen Primarchs, and 18 Fresh Legions, more titans than ever and it was still the greatest achievement of the GC when they did overthrow the Orks of Ullanor.
GW wrote:We've never seen rules for the Orks of the Great Crusade era. What we do know of them, is that there were some that were probably of comparable size to this big guy, and they were almost a match for Primarchs and the Emperor himself.
At the Time of the Great Crusade, we know that the Imperium had over a dozen Primarchs, and 18 Fresh Legions, more titans than ever and it was still the greatest achievement of the GC when they did overthrow the Orks of Ullanor.
Might be relevant to this discussion.
Depends - what's the source on that? A Facebook post, for example, would be less reliable than something in a Codex or rulebook.
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"
Not all killing is done for fun, if he just wants you to shut up he will krump you. Or if you happen to be in his way and he bats you to the side. Ghaz always has had that thing of "Ive got more important stuff to deal with" than duking down combatants for the fun of it. Thats what the boys are for. Ghaz doesnt mukk about.
BrianDavion wrote: BTW looking at the two stat lines, just FYI, both Ghaz and Ragnar are capable of one shotting each other, although Ghaz would have to flub some armor save rolls to be taken out reliably. Ragnar could kill him, but if you put them both on table with their current stats (not their "new and improved" stats I mean their pre-upgrade current codex stats_ I'd be BETTING on Ghaz, but wou;dn't be utterly flabber ghasted if Ragnar won.
this isn't "a guardsman beating Abaddon"
Clearly Ragnar killed him and then the ork player used ‘Orkz iz never beat’ strat to make the defeated Ghaz do a round of attacks which killed Ragnar in reply. The result of the duel was so entertaining it got written in to the lore.
Except Ragnar only ever did 4 wounds in the fight phase, so Ghaz smushed him good and proper if we go off Ghaz's leaked profile that is
except that this fight was before Ragnar and Ghaz where rebuilt at got their new rules. so we're using the old rules for them both.
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"
Not all killing is done for fun, if he just wants you to shut up he will krump you. Or if you happen to be in his way and he bats you to the side. Ghaz always has had that thing of "Ive got more important stuff to deal with" than duking down combatants for the fun of it. Thats what the boys are for. Ghaz doesnt mukk about.
BrianDavion wrote: BTW looking at the two stat lines, just FYI, both Ghaz and Ragnar are capable of one shotting each other, although Ghaz would have to flub some armor save rolls to be taken out reliably. Ragnar could kill him, but if you put them both on table with their current stats (not their "new and improved" stats I mean their pre-upgrade current codex stats_ I'd be BETTING on Ghaz, but wou;dn't be utterly flabber ghasted if Ragnar won.
this isn't "a guardsman beating Abaddon"
Clearly Ragnar killed him and then the ork player used ‘Orkz iz never beat’ strat to make the defeated Ghaz do a round of attacks which killed Ragnar in reply. The result of the duel was so entertaining it got written in to the lore.
Except Ragnar only ever did 4 wounds in the fight phase, so Ghaz smushed him good and proper if we go off Ghaz's leaked profile that is
except that this fight was before Ragnar and Ghaz where rebuilt at got their new rules. so we're using the old rules for them both.
how do you know Ghaz wasnt this big all along? after all the codex is set after PA. PA is filling in the fluff before Dark Iimperium takes off. Just like how Space Marines always magically had Centurion Warsuits, Stalker and Hunter tanks, Stormtalons, etc. It is just rewriting the lore. Grotsnik only reattached his head, he didnt give him some extra strong Dok's juice too as far as we are aware or built him new armour, a gun and a klaw. At this current time, as of when PA is out, Ghaz's profile represents him. Orkz dont get bigger when they loose a fight, Warbosses have been known to visibly shrink when they loose another fight with a fellow Warboss (if they arent outright slain). Uggrim in Evil Sunz Rising was told to shrink as to not draw attention to himself from the other Mek Bosses. Ghaz's old model and rules have no affect on his new model and his and Ragnar's duel. All we know is Ragnar got upgraded, Ghaz just got his head sewn back on, which isnt an uncommon thing in Ork society. Hell there was even a Warboss in older editions named Jar 'Ead who was literally a head in a Jar that was plugged into mega armour. Mogrok also lost his head in Hour of the Wolf and it was sewn back onto a Goff Nob's body.
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"
Not all killing is done for fun, if he just wants you to shut up he will krump you. Or if you happen to be in his way and he bats you to the side. Ghaz always has had that thing of "Ive got more important stuff to deal with" than duking down combatants for the fun of it. Thats what the boys are for. Ghaz doesnt mukk about.
BrianDavion wrote: BTW looking at the two stat lines, just FYI, both Ghaz and Ragnar are capable of one shotting each other, although Ghaz would have to flub some armor save rolls to be taken out reliably. Ragnar could kill him, but if you put them both on table with their current stats (not their "new and improved" stats I mean their pre-upgrade current codex stats_ I'd be BETTING on Ghaz, but wou;dn't be utterly flabber ghasted if Ragnar won.
this isn't "a guardsman beating Abaddon"
Clearly Ragnar killed him and then the ork player used ‘Orkz iz never beat’ strat to make the defeated Ghaz do a round of attacks which killed Ragnar in reply. The result of the duel was so entertaining it got written in to the lore.
Except Ragnar only ever did 4 wounds in the fight phase, so Ghaz smushed him good and proper if we go off Ghaz's leaked profile that is
Makes sense as Space Wolves wouldn't be smart enough to knock him down to four wounds before charging in.
Makes sense as Space Wolves wouldn't be smart enough to knock him down to four wounds before charging in.
Well if they want to make it the story of Space Wolves shooting every anti-tank weapons available at Ghaz for half an afternoon and then sending Ragnar for the finishing blow they very well can, but then the heroic nearly impossible feat of the Space Wolf captain looks pretty damn weaker (this is actually how I will rationalise this idiocy). After looking at Ghaz's leaked stats, I doubt Ragnar would do well in a shooting contest against him. It's basically one dude with a tiny pistol against a giant dude with four cannons sticked together. At some point, quantity is a quality.
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"
Not all killing is done for fun, if he just wants you to shut up he will krump you. Or if you happen to be in his way and he bats you to the side. Ghaz always has had that thing of "Ive got more important stuff to deal with" than duking down combatants for the fun of it. Thats what the boys are for. Ghaz doesnt mukk about.
BrianDavion wrote: BTW looking at the two stat lines, just FYI, both Ghaz and Ragnar are capable of one shotting each other, although Ghaz would have to flub some armor save rolls to be taken out reliably. Ragnar could kill him, but if you put them both on table with their current stats (not their "new and improved" stats I mean their pre-upgrade current codex stats_ I'd be BETTING on Ghaz, but wou;dn't be utterly flabber ghasted if Ragnar won.
this isn't "a guardsman beating Abaddon"
Clearly Ragnar killed him and then the ork player used ‘Orkz iz never beat’ strat to make the defeated Ghaz do a round of attacks which killed Ragnar in reply. The result of the duel was so entertaining it got written in to the lore.
Except Ragnar only ever did 4 wounds in the fight phase, so Ghaz smushed him good and proper if we go off Ghaz's leaked profile that is
except that this fight was before Ragnar and Ghaz where rebuilt at got their new rules. so we're using the old rules for them both.
how do you know Ghaz wasnt this big all along? after all the codex is set after PA. PA is filling in the fluff before Dark Iimperium takes off. Just like how Space Marines always magically had Centurion Warsuits, Stalker and Hunter tanks, Stormtalons, etc. It is just rewriting the lore. Grotsnik only reattached his head, he didnt give him some extra strong Dok's juice too as far as we are aware or built him new armour, a gun and a klaw. At this current time, as of when PA is out, Ghaz's profile represents him. Orkz dont get bigger when they loose a fight, Warbosses have been known to visibly shrink when they loose another fight with a fellow Warboss (if they arent outright slain). Uggrim in Evil Sunz Rising was told to shrink as to not draw attention to himself from the other Mek Bosses. Ghaz's old model and rules have no affect on his new model and his and Ragnar's duel. All we know is Ragnar got upgraded, Ghaz just got his head sewn back on, which isnt an uncommon thing in Ork society. Hell there was even a Warboss in older editions named Jar 'Ead who was literally a head in a Jar that was plugged into mega armour. Mogrok also lost his head in Hour of the Wolf and it was sewn back onto a Goff Nob's body.
proably because ragnar in the codex wasn't a primaris marine, ghaz's old stats stats thus represent him "before his rebuild"
Makes sense as Space Wolves wouldn't be smart enough to knock him down to four wounds before charging in.
Well if they want to make it the story of Space Wolves shooting every anti-tank weapons available at Ghaz for half an afternoon and then sending Ragnar for the finishing blow they very well can, but then the heroic nearly impossible feat of the Space Wolf captain looks pretty damn weaker (this is actually how I will rationalise this idiocy). After looking at Ghaz's leaked stats, I doubt Ragnar would do well in a shooting contest against him. It's basically one dude with a tiny pistol against a giant dude with four cannons sticked together. At some point, quantity is a quality.
Which is why fair fights are for idiots. As every good Nostroman knows.
honestly looking at the forces involved, etc I suspect that Ragnar'll be the canonical loser here. no way will ragnar and ten infiltrators beat Ghaz with 8 or so Nobs backing him up, that's just blatently lopsided.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I'd rather have characters being killed off than ones that can't die, with only minor filler fodder characters dying. its not like you cant still have and use their miniatures. LOTRSBG manages it fine.
thats also why I like the heresy.. people are actually able to die. makes a much more interesting story.
You say this, but there's a reason everyone gets so obsessed about whatever new updates there are. Outside of Horus Heresy players, I've never met anyone interested in playing a narrative that wasn't set in the absolute most recent time period because, "You already know how it ends." You kill a character off, and sales of their model tank, sales of their books tank, and many fans who were invested in that character are likely to give up on 40k entirely. Because if there's one thing I've learned in introducing dozens and dozens of people to 40k, there are A LOT of one faction/one character fans, who are interested in one part of 40k and one part only.
I understand where your coming from, and that used to work with how 40k lore used to be because the game was set in a stagnant time period. Now though gw wants to move the narrative along, and by doing so they make it so that they need characters to die. They can't have it both ways, either let the narrative be stagnant and allow all the Heroes to stay around, or start killing it off to make it feel like the universe is moving.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I'd rather have characters being killed off than ones that can't die, with only minor filler fodder characters dying. its not like you cant still have and use their miniatures. LOTRSBG manages it fine.
thats also why I like the heresy.. people are actually able to die. makes a much more interesting story.
You say this, but there's a reason everyone gets so obsessed about whatever new updates there are. Outside of Horus Heresy players, I've never met anyone interested in playing a narrative that wasn't set in the absolute most recent time period because, "You already know how it ends." You kill a character off, and sales of their model tank, sales of their books tank, and many fans who were invested in that character are likely to give up on 40k entirely. Because if there's one thing I've learned in introducing dozens and dozens of people to 40k, there are A LOT of one faction/one character fans, who are interested in one part of 40k and one part only.
I understand where your coming from, and that used to work with how 40k lore used to be because the game was set in a stagnant time period. Now though gw wants to move the narrative along, and by doing so they make it so that they need characters to die. They can't have it both ways, either let the narrative be stagnant and allow all the Heroes to stay around, or start killing it off to make it feel like the universe is moving.
there are plenty of other options to create a feel of a flowing narrative without killing characters. killing off characters to "create the feel of a story" is lazy writing. it also has limited returns. GRRM has a beginning middle and end to his story, GW wants to keep 40k alive as long as it can, I'm not saying character deaths shouldn't happen (and they have, colour sergant Kell is dead) but if they happened at the rate some people seem to think it should happen we'd blow through all our major chars in a 5 year time span. if character death is common it becomes well.. kind of a joke
Almost as if 40k has been hamfisted into an ongoing narrative from a relatively static setting...
Who'd thought it would feth up everything around it? /s
except it hasn't. you act like GW's trying to tell a single massive story, so far evidance shows.. they're not. they've moved the timeline ahead a bit and are giving us more battle zones.
Incidently I do think Ghaz managed to kill Svangir and Ulfir given we don't see primaris ragnar beside a pair of wolves.
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno AAE, Ghaz like all Orks sees fighting as fun doesn't he? and thus surely enjoys "fightin' 'n winnin"
I thought the trick was if the opponent felt "pride" in killing Lucius? Thinking about it the other outcome is the classic "Ghaz beats him but doesn't kill him because he loves the scrap", which will also stop Lucius spawning.
the exact wording, (per codex chaos 8 II) is "whomever kills him and suffers even a moment of sastifaction" Ghaz (or anyone else who doesn't know they just beat a legend) might not feel partiuclarly proud but you'd useally feel a small degree of sastifaction at a kill.
Dno man, for Orks killing is as natural as breathing. They are truly neutral. Do you feel satisfaction at taking a breath?
except Orks enjoy fighting. That's kinda a big part of their identity. win, lose it's all good fun to the Orks. or did the latest codex retcon that?
No they didn't, you're absolutely right. The thing is, enjoying fighting for the sake of fighting's sake is not the same as feeling satisfaction for killing a particularly kinky Purple Mariner.
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BrianDavion wrote: I'm not saying character deaths shouldn't happen (and they have, colour sergant Kell is dead)
BrianDavion wrote: I'm not saying character deaths shouldn't happen (and they have, colour sergant Kell is dead)
Who?
Creed's Makari
I agree, not exactly a terriably big character but let's face it, if GW kills people off it's not going to be characters like Ghazakul or Ragnar, it's going to be obscure characters no one really cares about, that GW's not worried about losing sales on (so old resin model)
I think the issue is that they keep tossing these characters they don't want to kill at each other then having to come up with reasons WHY one or the other (or both) aren't dead. I'm fine with characters who don't die, but it kills the narrative when they clash.
flandarz wrote: I think the issue is that they keep tossing these characters they don't want to kill at each other then having to come up with reasons WHY one or the other (or both) aren't dead. I'm fine with characters who don't die, but it kills the narrative when they clash.
Don't entirely disagree, I mean Yarrick vs Ghaz was proably a better way of doing it, focus on "characters as commanders" rather then "characters as duelists"
BrianDavion wrote: Don't entirely disagree, I mean Yarrick vs Ghaz was proably a better way of doing it, focus on "characters as commanders" rather then "characters as duelists"
Is Yarrick even alive in the current timeline or did he die offscreen like so many other Imperial guard heroes?
BrianDavion wrote: Don't entirely disagree, I mean Yarrick vs Ghaz was proably a better way of doing it, focus on "characters as commanders" rather then "characters as duelists"
Is Yarrick even alive in the current timeline or did he die offscreen like so many other Imperial guard heroes?
I doubt any of them are killed off screen. GW was more clever with the post Gathering storm era then a lot of people give them credit for,.with the opening of the rift, every world was impacted differantly by the timey whimy effects of the warp. this allows GW to effectively have their cake and eat it too, it allows them to have one world that has "known only war for the last thousand generations, since the great rift opened" and to also say "yeah the whole great rift thing happened a week ago for Yarrick, god that was a gak week"
BrianDavion wrote: Don't entirely disagree, I mean Yarrick vs Ghaz was proably a better way of doing it, focus on "characters as commanders" rather then "characters as duelists"
Is Yarrick even alive in the current timeline or did he die offscreen like so many other Imperial guard heroes?
I doubt any of them are killed off screen. GW was more clever with the post Gathering storm era then a lot of people give them credit for,.with the opening of the rift, every world was impacted differantly by the timey whimy effects of the warp. this allows GW to effectively have their cake and eat it too, it allows them to have one world that has "known only war for the last thousand generations, since the great rift opened" and to also say "yeah the whole great rift thing happened a week ago for Yarrick, god that was a gak week"
'Clever' is questionable here. GW made a simple excuse to explain how human heroes can still be alive in the setting. It's really, really contrived in my opinion.
BrianDavion wrote: Don't entirely disagree, I mean Yarrick vs Ghaz was proably a better way of doing it, focus on "characters as commanders" rather then "characters as duelists"
Is Yarrick even alive in the current timeline or did he die offscreen like so many other Imperial guard heroes?
I doubt any of them are killed off screen. GW was more clever with the post Gathering storm era then a lot of people give them credit for,.with the opening of the rift, every world was impacted differantly by the timey whimy effects of the warp. this allows GW to effectively have their cake and eat it too, it allows them to have one world that has "known only war for the last thousand generations, since the great rift opened" and to also say "yeah the whole great rift thing happened a week ago for Yarrick, god that was a gak week"
'Clever' is questionable here. GW made a simple excuse to explain how human heroes can still be alive in the setting. It's really, really contrived in my opinion.
except the warp having well.. time warping effects is well documented. really this is just more GW formally admitted "yeah we don't have any sort of unified timeline" in fairness this has been obvious for YEAAARS given the number of events they've been jamming into M.41 999
well guess that addresses the complaints that this was an out of no where rivlary
Yeah and they probably kept quiet about it because that's the kind of guys Ghaz and Ragnar are, not ones to go around boasting and bragging. The strong silent types.
well guess that addresses the complaints that this was an out of no where rivlary
Imperial heroes outnumber the xenos ones, so some opposing characters have to be shared for rivalries. One of those turned into a major event/campaign book, so thats what people recall. I don't know much about Ragnar, but Yarrick is more or less defined by Ghazghull through Armageddon 2 and 3. Ragnar presumably less so.
It probably all started with personal studio armies anyways.
well guess that addresses the complaints that this was an out of no where rivlary
Imperial heroes outnumber the xenos ones, so some opposing characters have to be shared for rivalries. One of those turned into a major event/campaign book, so thats what people recall. I don't know much about Ragnar, but Yarrick is more or less defined by Ghazghull through Armageddon 2 and 3. Ragnar presumably less so.
It probably all started with personal studio armies anyways.
yeah, Ragnar's been around for awhile but never really was a featured character in a campaig which really is a pity.
Given the 1993 story specifically has Ragnar saying he will take Ghazghul's head I've no doubt it is the basis for the Saga of the Beast outcome. Can't be a concidence.
pm713 wrote: You think GW are that aware of past writing?
You don't think it's possible they drew inspiration from this short story?
Ghaz having his head cut off by the only character to my knowledge who has said he would take Ghaz's head?
I would like to think that writers do carry out at least a little bit of research on characters prior to writing about them. And given there are not many stories involving Ghaz and Ragnar together this wouldn't have been that hard to come across. I found it easily enough after all.
pm713 wrote: You think GW are that aware of past writing?
You don't think it's possible they drew inspiration from this short story?
Ghaz having his head cut off by the only character to my knowledge who has said he would take Ghaz's head?
I would like to think that writers do carry out at least a little bit of research on characters prior to writing about them. And given there are not many stories involving Ghaz and Ragnar together this wouldn't have been that hard to come across. I found it easily enough after all.
It's not impossible just feels unlikely to me.
Decapitation is a pretty common way of trying to ensure someones dead and I don't really credit GW with putting effort into things. They certainly don't seem to feel much pride in their work seeing what they do with their license.
They have shown they do this in the past at least.
Ie the name c'tan comes from an.outbox flavour quote about the quiescent perils of the c'tan, which was later used to describe the callidus c'tan phase sword and then later added to the necrons.
So I would at least entertain the possibility that it happened.
).
