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Yes, he isn't weaker. I'd say he's on par with characters like Calgar and such.
I would also be fine with Ragnar being able to take out characters on par with Calgar. There's no kind of special treatment here.
Heck, Warbosses in general aren't weaker, just looking at their stats.
I'm not really sure how far I'd rate stats, given how subject to change they can be, but I see your point. However, by that same "stat" logic, Ragnar is capable of killing Ghaz - hell, even a mutual kill is possible via stratagems!
Normally I'm all on board with "size doesn't equate to importance", but we're talking about Orks. It's actually their biology. Size is literally an expression of importance/authority/Gork-Morkiness. Particularly in the Goff clan, the authority goes to the Ork who smashes the hardest, and I'm pretty sure more authority just makes an Ork smash even harder.
Yes, and Ghaz *is* the biggest around at the moment. He's still not Prime-Ork level yet, and I'd say he's at Calgar level, physically, politically, far more important though.
My claim isn't at all using history as a form of authority. I'm simply making an observation that there is a difference in the way the stories are handled, then vs. now.
Again, "then and now" - my idea of "then" is hardly any different to "now" - it's not like the current stuff is a newfangled thing that's only just cropped up since 8th, this has been a thing for several editions now.
I'm not disputing it *was* different, but I'm saying that it's been a pretty long time since it last was like that.
So when did you start 40K?
End of 4th, start of 5th, but started reading and collecting before I played, and had a 3rd Edition SM Codex hand-me-down before I picked up the proper one. In my experience, the fluff isn't all too different from when it was when I started, and that's what, over a dozen years ago?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
An Actual Englishman wrote: For me, as an Ork player, there is no logical justification for the double KO. That said context is a thing. If Ghaz is gloating over a *presumed dead* Ragnar and Ragnar manages a last desperate strike to behead Ghaz before keeling over, well, that's something I can get behind.
Exactly: context. I'm pretty sure that, like with a lot of GW's current story beats, the brief sounds a lot worse than the actual events, and the event you describe (Ghaz standing over a presumed dead Ragnar) is most likely what's going to happen, cliche as it is.
But, we'll wait and see.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 18:51:28
I doubt Ragnar is even in the top 50 for "best combatants" in the Imperium (cuz, ya know, Custodes exist). Meanwhile, Ghaz is the most powerful (current) member of a race that was literally designed for combat. I don't have an issue with Space Marines mowing down Boyz by the planetload. I don't even have an issue with Captains or Masters slapping around the odd Warboss from time to time. But it's frustrating to know that the best the Ork race has to offer was matched by one of a Space Marine Captain (even one as storied as Ragnar), who is lower on the totem pole than at least hundreds of other individuals in the Imperium. It creates a question where you have to ask "if Ragnar can take Ghaz to a draw, and the Imperium considers Ghaz to be a threat, why don't they just take like... half of the Wolves and just eliminate him?" It makes you wonder why the Imperium even considers Orkz to be any more than pests.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: yeah. If GW pulls out a "Ghaz whupped his butt and Ragnar snuck in a slash during the typical Ork gloating period" I can get behind this. I just don't expect it to happen, because GW has always shown itself to favor Marines in the fluff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 18:56:15
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
No, it's a notable drop. Ragnar is no more the fighter than Belial. Ghaz handily beat Belial.
Under potentially much difference circumstances - and you act like Ghaz also didn't beat Ragnar far more than he did Belial. Ragnar seems he'd only survive through the Rubicon - Belial got better (speaking of, why am I not hearing complaints about 'he should have diiiiiied' about that?)
Plus, are we saying that Calgar shouldn't have lost to the Swarmlord, because he killed an Avatar of Khaine, by that same logic?
1. Calgar ultimately beat Swarmlord.
2. Leaps of logic don't help this discussion.
You don't seem to understand your own claims. You ARE underrating him in thinking that this Ragnar bs is normal. As has been said now countless times, Ghaz is THE TOP ORK, there is no Ork greater.
*the top Ork at the present. He's not the Beast, he's not a Prime-Ork, he's not even the Warboss at Ullanor. He's certainly the top Ork of his day, but that doesn't mean he's immortal or invulnerable.
Your points are utterly irrelevant. Ghaz is THE TOP ORK. As has been stated, like tens of times now, the TOP ORK should not get beheaded to the third (?) Space Wolf. It cheapens him as a character.
You like Ultramarines by the looks. Imagine the number 2 or 3 Ork (Wazzdakka or Nazdreg, probably) fighting with him to a draw. Would you be happy with that? No. Of course you wouldn't.
Ragnar isn't even the top Space Wolf. They aren't (nor should they be) equals.
As I said, I compare Ghaz to Calgar, to Dante, to Grimnar, and suchlike. And if Ragnar got a mutual kill on Calgar, I'd be fine with that, because the power levels aren't exactly leagues apart. I'm okay with slight underdogs - especially when it results in a mutual kill. If Ragnar had one and didn't essentially die, I'd be all for saying this was improper. But that didn't happen.
Why do you keep comparing the TOP ORK to a number 2 of other factions? This is disingenuous. Ghaz IS our Guilliman. He is above Calgar and Grimnar because they are not the top player in their respective factions. Dante is the top Blood Angel, so he is of equal standing, IMO (unless Sanguinius returns).
Why am I even discussing this with you?
Beats me, feel free to walk away.
Your picture and your dakka title of "Venerable Ultramarine Dreadnought" makes it pretty clear where your loyalty lies. It's no wonder you think this is normal.
Ah yes, because, famously, you can gather all you possibly need to know about someone from the random banner and profile picture they have. Here's a novel idea, perhaps deal with the content of my argument instead?
Your argument has no real point. You keep claiming "I'm OK with this" and that's about as far as it goes. Good for you. I'm not surprised because you clearly have a preference for Marines. You also keep acting as if I should have known this all along, as if GW haven't been painting Ghaz as more than Ragnar (by continually referring to him as the Beast, the only Primeork we know of to date) and as if Ghaz hasn't consistently beaten characters on Ragnar's level multiple times even before he was given this nomenclature.
I might be an Ultramarine player predominantly, but I'd rather have Orks than Space Wolves. But hey, I guess I'm deluded as to my own beliefs because some rando says so.
You have proven your bias with your own claims. I don't believe you know much about Ghaz's lore, or about what he represents for the faction, by your statements throughout this thread. So in that respect, you are absolutely deluded.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
No, it's a notable drop. Ragnar is no more the fighter than Belial. Ghaz handily beat Belial.
Who is to say Ragnar couldn't also defeat Belial? Ragnar has some pretty decent feats under his belt as well as (historically at least) having reflexes beyond that of other Space Marines.
Hell, I'd be fine with Ragnar beating Calgar - and that's coming from an Ultramarine player who really isn't fond on the Wolves.
Damn, that's coming "from an Ultramarine player who really isn't fond of the Wolves"? Well I guess that proves everything! Such objectivity! I am undone! I don't think. Would you have Ragnar draw with Guilliman? Because that's exactly what this is.
Could the same bias not also be said of yourself and your own Avatar?
Shhhhhh, self-awareness isn't something Orks are known for.
Ah the ad hominems. And you were doing so well! Kinda. Not really.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I'd rather have characters being killed off than ones that can't die, with only minor filler fodder characters dying. its not like you cant still have and use their miniatures. LOTRSBG manages it fine.
thats also why I like the heresy.. people are actually able to die. makes a much more interesting story.
In addition, if they killed off characters we would also get to see all kinds of new interesting characters and miniatures. I'd rather see new miniatures for my armies than have 5 different sculpts of the same characters.
flandarz wrote: I doubt Ragnar is even in the top 50 for "best combatants" in the Imperium (cuz, ya know, Custodes exist). Meanwhile, Ghaz is the most powerful (current) member of a race that was literally designed for combat. I don't have an issue with Space Marines mowing down Boyz by the planetload. I don't even have an issue with Captains or Masters slapping around the odd Warboss from time to time. But it's frustrating to know that the best the Ork race has to offer was matched by one of a Space Marine Captain (even one as storied as Ragnar), who is lower on the totem pole than at least hundreds of other individuals in the Imperium. It creates a question where you have to ask "if Ragnar can take Ghaz to a draw, and the Imperium considers Ghaz to be a threat, why don't they just take like... half of the Wolves and just eliminate him?" It makes you wonder why the Imperium even considers Orkz to be any more than pests.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: yeah. If GW pulls out a "Ghaz whupped his butt and Ragnar snuck in a slash during the typical Ork gloating period" I can get behind this. I just don't expect it to happen, because GW has always shown itself to favor Marines in the fluff.
The Orks suffer heavily from the problem that all 40k villains suffer from. GW wants to show that Imperial character X is a total badass. The best way of showing this is by having him beat up one of the big, scary powerful villains. But there are so many Imperial characters that the villains end up losing much more than they ever win, which makes us wonder why the villain is even considered a credible threat. Chaos also suffers from it really bad. A lot of daemons and CSM characters only show up in the fluff to get beaten by whoever the hero of the story happens to be. There just aren't enough novels and such that feature Ghazghkull or other Orks as protagonists and show them beating up Space Marines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 19:27:39
I'll try to illustrate the difference of "then and now" with some notable lore from the time.
1st Edition/ Rogue trader: 40K Compilation, Eldar vs. Slaaneshi forces. Two incarnations of gods meet in the field. The Avatar kills the Keeper of Secrets. Unnamed hero vs. unnamed hero, one emerges victorius. And entire page of that story is dedicated to a mournful aftermath. Eldar crying for lost ones, pitying their human cultist enemies who are dead, etc.
2nd Edition: IcharIV, Marneus commands a fleet in defense of Ultramar. There's no Swarmlord in the lore at all. Marneus spends his time as a commander. . . well . . . commanding. A named character in the codex, Invictus, himself dies in the battle against countless hordes defending the fortress of Macragge.
2nd Edition: 2nd Armageddon War. Yarrick beheads a Warboss after losing his arm. (named in the story but it's not like a model you can play). Yarrick becomes an inspiration to his troops and goes on to lead the defence of Hades Hive. They lose Hades Hive, but Ghazgull and Yarrick never meet, because they're spending their time commanding forces over a huge war zone. Blood Angels show up and Ghaz has to withdraw.
3rd Edition: 3rd Armageddon War. Huge forces on either side. to my knowledge no major named character ever directly fights any other named character. Commanders are commanding. Lots of description is given to strategy, tactics, moves and counter moves on the world/system scale.
5th edition: Calgar punches out an Avatar. I'm sorta ok with some facts about the duel itself since the Avatar spent some time before that killing Terminators, and Terminators hit pretty hard. Fresh Calgar meets an Avatar that's already taken Powerfists/Thunderhammers and some heavy weapons fire. Calgar barely emerges victorious. How did these two wind up meeting in the middle of the fight? It's a poor set up, imo. But, named character performes heroic deed against unnamed character. Sloppy story, but the duel outcome is reasonable.
8th Edition: Ragnar Blackmane and Ghazghull somehow meet and have a duel. They both die but they both don't die!
There seems to be a template for now (and from what I can tell, much of the Horus Heresy novels), where these major characters meet, but they can't kill each other because they're named characters, and then they go on their merry way.
I think the old way works waaay better. Commanders don't meet each other for a duel, the battle is a test of resources and strategy. One side can definitively lose because one side doesn't have named characters or the named characters are forced to withdraw, etc. These commander duels where characters don't die is stupidity. Like what does the post-battle look like ? Does everybody just stop and medivac all of a sudden? The scenarios become less and less grounded/believable, etc. Things are feeling a lot more contrived.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/13 19:30:29
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
No, it's a notable drop. Ragnar is no more the fighter than Belial. Ghaz handily beat Belial.
Under potentially much difference circumstances - and you act like Ghaz also didn't beat Ragnar far more than he did Belial. Ragnar seems he'd only survive through the Rubicon - Belial got better (speaking of, why am I not hearing complaints about 'he should have diiiiiied' about that?)
But Belial survived without Primaris aid. Ragnar wouldn't have. It's not like Ghaz just lost his head and Ragnar didn't so much as take a scratch. They both "died".
Plus, are we saying that Calgar shouldn't have lost to the Swarmlord, because he killed an Avatar of Khaine, by that same logic?
1. Calgar ultimately beat Swarmlord.
Wait, but that implies that fighters don't always perform exactly the same in every battle?? Perhaps, no, surely not - but what if Ragnar had a particularly good day, and Ghaz had a particularly bad one? But lo, of course not, fighters can ONLY do the same thing over and over! But how would that explain Calgar losing to, and then BEATING, the Swarmlord.
Truly, a great mystery.
2. Leaps of logic don't help this discussion.
You're right. Perhaps we should both stop.
Your points are utterly irrelevant. Ghaz is THE TOP ORK.
Dante is the TOP BLOOD ANGEL. It doesn't make him Sanguinius.
As has been stated, like tens of times now, the TOP ORK should not get beheaded to the third (?) Space Wolf. It cheapens him as a character.
That's implying that Ragnar isn't also a character with a similarly long and storied past, a character who's killed Greater Daemons and suchlike.
You like Ultramarines by the looks. Imagine the number 2 or 3 Ork (Wazzdakka or Nazdreg, probably) fighting with him to a draw. Would you be happy with that? No. Of course you wouldn't.
Nazdreg getting a mutual ""kill"" on Calgar? I'm fine with that. Ooops, is that the sound of your argument falling apart?
Don't pretend you know what my beliefs are, yeah?
Your argument has no real point. You keep claiming "I'm OK with this" and that's about as far as it goes. Good for you. I'm not surprised because you clearly have a preference for Marines.
'You're not OK with this. Good for you. I'm not surprised because you clearly have a preference for Orks.' So - you're agreeing that your own argument must also have no real point, by your own logic?
You also keep acting as if I should have known this all along, as if GW haven't been painting Ghaz as more than Ragnar (by continually referring to him as the Beast, the only Primeork we know of to date) and as if Ghaz hasn't consistently beaten characters on Ragnar's level multiple times even before he was given this nomenclature.
And we've seen Ragnar beat characters on the Greater Daemon scale too. It's not like Ragnar doesn't also have his heroics behind him.
All I'm saying is that I'm looking at this from what we've been presented, not from what we both (yes, both - I'd have liked Ghaz to be a Prime-Ork by now, but that's not what we got) wanted.
I might be an Ultramarine player predominantly, but I'd rather have Orks than Space Wolves. But hey, I guess I'm deluded as to my own beliefs because some rando says so.
You have proven your bias with your own claims. I don't believe you know much about Ghaz's lore, or about what he represents for the faction, by your statements throughout this thread. So in that respect, you are absolutely deluded.
Ah yes, I forgot you were the arbitrator on biases - I should totally trust what the self-admittedly biased person says!
Hell, I'd be fine with Ragnar beating Calgar - and that's coming from an Ultramarine player who really isn't fond on the Wolves.
Damn, that's coming "from an Ultramarine player who really isn't fond of the Wolves"? Well I guess that proves everything! Such objectivity! I am undone!
And you're claiming objectivity, the self-confessed biased Ork player?
I don't think.
Well, your words, not mine.
Would you have Ragnar draw with Guilliman? Because that's exactly what this is.
It really isn't. Ghaz isn't on Guilliman tier. As you say above - "leaps of logic don't help this discussion".
Could the same bias not also be said of yourself and your own Avatar?
Shhhhhh, self-awareness isn't something Orks are known for.
Ah the ad hominems.
Sorry, I thought it was okay to make generalisations based on one's avatar? Reap what you sow, I suppose.
And you were doing so well! Kinda. Not really.
Hark who's talking.
We finished?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 19:34:30
Again, can someone show me where ghaz is an amazing duelist and managed anything other than a fight with Belial? So far his gods had to yank him into the warp to prevent an ass whooping from Grimaldus, he fled from the Blood Angels rather than fight the good fight and that's about it so far?
Insectum7 wrote: I'll try to illustrate the difference of "then and now" with some notable lore from the time.
Spoiler:
1st Edition/ Rogue trader: 40K Compilation, Eldar vs. Slaaneshi forces. Two incarnations of gods meet in the field. The Avatar kills the Keeper of Secrets. Unnamed hero vs. unnamed hero, one emerges victorius. And entire page of that story is dedicated to a mournful aftermath. Eldar crying for lost ones, pitying their human cultist enemies who are dead, etc.
2nd Edition: IcharIV, Marneus commands a fleet in defense of Ultramar. There's no Swarmlord in the lore at all. Marneus spends his time as a commander. . . well . . . commanding. A named character in the codex, Invictus, himself dies in the battle against countless hordes defending the fortress of Macragge.
2nd Edition: 2nd Armageddon War. Yarrick beheads a Warboss after losing his arm. (named in the story but it's not like a model you can play). Yarrick becomes an inspiration to his troops and goes on to lead the defence of Hades Hive. They lose Hades Hive, but Ghazgull and Yarrick never meet, because they're spending their time commanding forces over a huge war zone. Blood Angels show up and Ghaz has to withdraw.
3rd Edition: 3rd Armageddon War. Huge forces on either side. to my knowledge no major named character ever directly fights any other named character. Commanders are commanding. Lots of description is given to strategy, tactics, moves and counter moves on the world/system scale.
5th edition: Calgar punches out an Avatar. I'm sorta ok with some facts about the duel itself since the Avatar spent some time before that killing Terminators, and Terminators hit pretty hard. Fresh Calgar meets an Avatar that's already taken Powerfists/Thunderhammers and some heavy weapons fire. Calgar barely emerges victorious. How did these two wind up meeting in the middle of the fight? It's a poor set up, imo. But, named character performes heroic deed against unnamed character. Sloppy story, but the duel outcome is reasonable.
8th Edition: Ragnar Blackmane and Ghazghull somehow meet and have a duel. They both die but they both don't die!
There seems to be a template for now (and from what I can tell, much of the Horus Heresy novels), where these major characters meet, but they can't kill each other because they're named characters, and then they go on their merry way.
Heresy definitely has the standard issues that any prequel had - ie, you see someone like Abaddon, and know that they can't die. I also think they definitely do have some cop-outs (Loken should have stayed dead IMO, and his plot arc, wherever it goes, should have been given to Qruze and Aximand, if the story goes where I think it does). However, that's not to say that prequels can't have surprises (Imperium Secundus, I think is completely new, Alpharius actually dying over Pluto, and, not a HH one, but the Imperial Fists Chapter actually being wiped out! By Orks!).
I think the old way works waaay better. Commanders don't meet each other for a duel, the battle is a test of resources and strategy.
So, Vigilus? Calgar's most notable contributions to Vigilus is his leadership and marshalling the Imperial forces present to actually work together effectively. Calgar only really engages Abaddon in order to draw him out, having wounded his pride, and potentially decapitate traitor leadership. There's actually quite a fair bit of logistical and quarantine warfare involved in Vigilus.
Again, even older battles, like the Battle of Macragge, have things like Cold Steel Ridge, which ended up as a character battle (though it may not have been named as the Swarmlord, Calgar still got beaten up in a duel). All I'm saying is that there's a mix of heroic personal combats and large scale wars on from both pre-4th and post-4th, and that it's not as simple as "the new stuff is bad". I mean, where do you draw the line of "then" and "now" - where do 4th and 5th fall in that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote: Again, can someone show me where ghaz is an amazing duelist and managed anything other than a fight with Belial? So far his gods had to yank him into the warp to prevent an ass whooping from Grimaldus, he fled from the Blood Angels rather than fight the good fight and that's about it so far?
Happy to be illuminated.
Ooh, forgot about that! Although the Helbrecht (not Grimaldus) was in orbit, but one could still argue that him just getting to escape via Deus-Ex like that is just as "bad writing" as Ragnar beating him, no?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 19:55:54
Even assuming Ghaz has lost far more duels than he has won (which, if you want to include every unnamed Warboss to challenge him, he probably hasn't), do you not consider it to be an issue that the top combatants of every other Faction lose duels far more often than the middle-ranked members of the Imperium? Does it not seem as though the "threats" of the universe are little more than plot devices on which to hang accolades of the Marines' victories? And this doesn't bother you in the slightest?
Also: yeah. If GW pulls out a "Ghaz whupped his butt and Ragnar snuck in a slash during the typical Ork gloating period" I can get behind this. I just don't expect it to happen, because GW has always shown itself to favor Marines in the fluff.
I actually want the near opposite. Ragnar makes a near suicidal charge, jumps in the air and aims for the head knowing is got like one shot to kill Ghaz in single combat else he would get recked. He succeed in passing throuh the guard of Ghaz and chops his head off. Then, while Ragnar is triumphant and Ghaz's horde starts to retreat in panic at the apparent death of their leader, the hedless corpse of Ghaz grabs Ragnar and smash him around Hulk style because headless orks can do that. The Doc then picks up Ghaz head to stitch it back where it belong while an apothecary does the same with the half dead Ragnar. Now Space Wolves fans can brag that one of their boy defeated Ghaz in single combat and the Ork fans can brag that a headless ork can beat the crap out of one of the best Space Marine champion out there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 20:36:43
flandarz wrote: Even assuming Ghaz has lost far more duels than he has won (which, if you want to include every unnamed Warboss to challenge him, he probably hasn't), do you not consider it to be an issue that the top combatants of every other Faction lose duels far more often than the middle-ranked members of the Imperium? Does it not seem as though the "threats" of the universe are little more than plot devices on which to hang accolades of the Marines' victories? And this doesn't bother you in the slightest?
In short no, because Ghaz will not single handedly end the imperium via fist fights. He's a threat because he has armies in the untold billions, all who are hard to exterminate, superior to standard humans and dedicated to destruction. Just because he can mutually batter a legendary hero to death and survive having his head chopped off, doesn't mean he's useless or that orks are not a threat.
Ghaz is known for his ability to unite the ork race and shows an uncanny tactical foresight and strategic genius. Neither of those require him to be able to beat Ragnar in a fight.
flandarz wrote: Even assuming Ghaz has lost far more duels than he has won (which, if you want to include every unnamed Warboss to challenge him, he probably hasn't), do you not consider it to be an issue that the top combatants of every other Faction lose duels far more often than the middle-ranked members of the Imperium? Does it not seem as though the "threats" of the universe are little more than plot devices on which to hang accolades of the Marines' victories? And this doesn't bother you in the slightest?
In short no, because Ghaz will not single handedly end the imperium via fist fights. He's a threat because he has armies in the untold billions, all who are hard to exterminate, superior to standard humans and dedicated to destruction. Just because he can mutually batter a legendary hero to death and survive having his head chopped off, doesn't mean he's useless or that orks are not a threat.
Ghaz is known for his ability to unite the ork race and shows an uncanny tactical foresight and strategic genius. Neither of those require him to be able to beat Ragnar in a fight.
Exactly. He's a threat because he's *smart*.
I'd actually have thought that it would be a breath of fresh air to have a leader of a stereotypically "blunt" faction to have a more strategically minded leader. I'd actually really like for Ghaz to have some really good aura and buff rules, and probably give out CP too.
I think the old way works waaay better. Commanders don't meet each other for a duel, the battle is a test of resources and strategy.
So, Vigilus? Calgar's most notable contributions to Vigilus is his leadership and marshalling the Imperial forces present to actually work together effectively. Calgar only really engages Abaddon in order to draw him out, having wounded his pride, and potentially decapitate traitor leadership. There's actually quite a fair bit of logistical and quarantine warfare involved in Vigilus.
Again, even older battles, like the Battle of Macragge, have things like Cold Steel Ridge, which ended up as a character battle (though it may not have been named as the Swarmlord, Calgar still got beaten up in a duel). All I'm saying is that there's a mix of heroic personal combats and large scale wars on from both pre-4th and post-4th, and that it's not as simple as "the new stuff is bad". I mean, where do you draw the line of "then" and "now" - where do 4th and 5th fall in that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote: Again, can someone show me where ghaz is an amazing duelist and managed anything other than a fight with Belial? So far his gods had to yank him into the warp to prevent an ass whooping from Grimaldus, he fled from the Blood Angels rather than fight the good fight and that's about it so far?
Happy to be illuminated.
Ooh, forgot about that! Although the Helbrecht (not Grimaldus) was in orbit, but one could still argue that him just getting to escape via Deus-Ex like that is just as "bad writing" as Ragnar beating him, no?
I'm not saying that poor writing didn't exist in old 40K. But I AM saying that the frequency of these contrived-feeling named character vs. named character duels are A: dumb, and B: has increased over time.
flandarz wrote: Even assuming Ghaz has lost far more duels than he has won (which, if you want to include every unnamed Warboss to challenge him, he probably hasn't), do you not consider it to be an issue that the top combatants of every other Faction lose duels far more often than the middle-ranked members of the Imperium? Does it not seem as though the "threats" of the universe are little more than plot devices on which to hang accolades of the Marines' victories? And this doesn't bother you in the slightest?
In short no, because Ghaz will not single handedly end the imperium via fist fights. He's a threat because he has armies in the untold billions, all who are hard to exterminate, superior to standard humans and dedicated to destruction. Just because he can mutually batter a legendary hero to death and survive having his head chopped off, doesn't mean he's useless or that orks are not a threat.
Ghaz is known for his ability to unite the ork race and shows an uncanny tactical foresight and strategic genius. Neither of those require him to be able to beat Ragnar in a fight.
I agree with all that, but then why tell a story about a the duel at all if it's going to come off as a contrivance? What's the purpose of the duel?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 21:01:00
It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.
Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?
I like that Orks are cannonically not a threat now. It just proves that the Imperium are the bad guys. After all, all the evil fascist stuff they do is justified by the apparently unstoppable threats they face. But Space Marines can just punch out any warboss, kill the Swarmlord, destroy the Avatar of Khaine, killed Daemon Primarchs and Greater Daemons...so really, there is no justification for the brutality and evil of the Imperium. It is just a genocidal theocracy because it LIKES it.
Kinda gives a moral imperative for the downtrodden Xenos resistance to destroy them, I reckon.
Also, what I have learned is that people will somehow not accept that this is the way the setting is written while they simultaneously make arguments that this is exactly how the setting is written and should work.
It is glorious. I am so deeply amused.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But Belial survived without Primaris aid. Ragnar wouldn't have. It's not like Ghaz just lost his head and Ragnar didn't so much as take a scratch. They both "died".
So? I'd rather non-Primaris Ragnar had the same fate, lost and didn't behead Ghaz. Clearly.
Wait, but that implies that fighters don't always perform exactly the same in every battle?? Perhaps, no, surely not - but what if Ragnar had a particularly good day, and Ghaz had a particularly bad one? But lo, of course not, fighters can ONLY do the same thing over and over! But how would that explain Calgar losing to, and then BEATING, the Swarmlord.
What a load of rubbish. Calgar beat Swarmlord because Swarmlord is just as useless a villain as Ghaz now is. They both exist only to show how badass the Marine of the moment is.
Truly, a great mystery.
Dante is the TOP BLOOD ANGEL. It doesn't make him Sanguinius.
No, it doesn't. But it makes him roughly as important to BA players because he is as good as it gets.
That's implying that Ragnar isn't also a character with a similarly long and storied past, a character who's killed Greater Daemons and suchlike.
No, it implies exactly what I said. Ragnar is not, without question, the TOP SPACEWOLF. He is therefore not on the same level as Ghaz.
Nazdreg getting a mutual ""kill"" on Calgar? I'm fine with that. Ooops, is that the sound of your argument falling apart?
Don't pretend you know what my beliefs are, yeah?
My fault for not properly explaining my point (although I thought it was obvious, if you read the rest of my post and took it in context).
Would you be happy with Nazdreg getting a mutual "kill" on GUILLIMAN? Didn't think so.
And we've seen Ragnar beat characters on the Greater Daemon scale too. It's not like Ragnar doesn't also have his heroics behind him.
Ghaz is MORE than a Greater Daemon. He's the faction leader.
All I'm saying is that I'm looking at this from what we've been presented, not from what we both (yes, both - I'd have liked Ghaz to be a Prime-Ork by now, but that's not what we got) wanted.
No, the fact that you have written pages of text defending why Ghaz should be beheaded by Ragnar shows what you wanted pretty obviously.
And you're claiming objectivity, the self-confessed biased Ork player?
No? Literally. As I referred to myself as "biased" I think it's pretty obvious that I am not objective. But that doesn't make you objective. Not by a long shot.
It really isn't. Ghaz isn't on Guilliman tier. As you say above - "leaps of logic don't help this discussion".
It absolutely is. Ghaz is equal to Guilliman as far as Orks are concerned. Your claim otherwise only shows your ignorance and complete lack of understanding of the point I have repeatedly made.
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
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Dudeface wrote: Again, can someone show me where ghaz is an amazing duelist and managed anything other than a fight with Belial? So far his gods had to yank him into the warp to prevent an ass whooping from Grimaldus, he fled from the Blood Angels rather than fight the good fight and that's about it so far?
Happy to be illuminated.
Ghaz was yanked into the warp to stop him getting blown to smithereens by Grimaldus' ship. Grimaldus was not about to engage Ghaz directly. "Other than handily beating one of the top Dark Angels duellists, can anyone show me why Ghaz is an amazing duellist?" Do we need to? Is Belial, for some reason known only to yourself, not enough?
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flandarz wrote: Even assuming Ghaz has lost far more duels than he has won (which, if you want to include every unnamed Warboss to challenge him, he probably hasn't), do you not consider it to be an issue that the top combatants of every other Faction lose duels far more often than the middle-ranked members of the Imperium? Does it not seem as though the "threats" of the universe are little more than plot devices on which to hang accolades of the Marines' victories? And this doesn't bother you in the slightest?
No it doesn't, because they are Marine fanboys who want to see their pet faction boss everything else.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/13 21:44:15
flandarz wrote: Even assuming Ghaz has lost far more duels than he has won (which, if you want to include every unnamed Warboss to challenge him, he probably hasn't), do you not consider it to be an issue that the top combatants of every other Faction lose duels far more often than the middle-ranked members of the Imperium? Does it not seem as though the "threats" of the universe are little more than plot devices on which to hang accolades of the Marines' victories? And this doesn't bother you in the slightest?
In short no, because Ghaz will not single handedly end the imperium via fist fights. He's a threat because he has armies in the untold billions, all who are hard to exterminate, superior to standard humans and dedicated to destruction. Just because he can mutually batter a legendary hero to death and survive having his head chopped off, doesn't mean he's useless or that orks are not a threat.
Ghaz is known for his ability to unite the ork race and shows an uncanny tactical foresight and strategic genius. Neither of those require him to be able to beat Ragnar in a fight.
....And this shows your lack of knowledge of Ork lore. Orks follow the strongest. If Ghaz isn't the strongest, Orks won't follow him. If he is beaten/beheaded by Ragnar, he is clearly not the strongest so Orks will not follow him. So he can't unite all the Orks and he is no real threat to the Imperium.
"Hard to exterminate"? On prior pages people have discussed how trivially easy it is for any faction to destroy Orks en masse. Captains beating literally thousands of Orks. We even had a short story that highlighted this here; https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/17/psychic-awakening-the-stand-of-the-sabre/ REAL tough to exterminate those Orks....
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
Hey man, don't throw us all in the same boat.
I mean, technically you aren't, but still.
You're not all "muH GirlYMaN is besstest!!!!11one" fanboys. Some though. Crikey.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.
Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?
Stop using facts and logic!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/13 21:54:22
The only problem I have with the whole thing is how under-represented Ghaz is really in 40k. He hasnt got a series of novels dedicated solely about him from his perspective, we dont really get to know any duels hes been in except Belial and a few named Warbosses and a Tyrgon. He hasnt really had any further in-depth background done about him outside of the Codex and the 7th ed Supplement book.
So whilst Ragnar has had all these Mary-Sue acts of throwing spears through Magnus' eye, surviving battles against Daemonic Primarchs and slaying Greater Daemons to flesh out his character and see the scope of his feats and abilities, you dont really see that with Ghaz.
And whilst I personally dont want Ghaz to have insanely unlikely duel outcomes (like Ragnars), it would be nice to get a greater understanding of the Beast. I see Ghaz as more of a Gorgutz on a larger scale. He knows how to fight, where to fight and when not to fight. He isnt dumb, he isnt some rage driven Warboss like Grukk. He simply gets stuff done. And thats what I like about Ghaz, he is a THREAT. Not to random X character that fights him, but to the warzones he appears in. He molds the Orkz into something else; smarter, more driven, better technology, crazy tactics, "disciplined" restraint.
He unites the various Klans and put all the best Warlords and Oddboys under one banner working together (like Nazdreg sharing his teleporta tech). So Ghaz is a huge deal and I may be biased but I dont want Ragnar (who really is just a Captain) beating the crap out of Ghaz. It cheapens him not because of the raw power that Ghaz should have but more of the physical thing Ghaz represents. He is the TOP ORK. He is the defacto leader whether the boys like it or not. He has a vision that he is actually completing.
He isnt a Prime-Ork but what he is to the race is pretty damn close. I wouldnt even put him in the same boat as Chapter Masters, but I wouldnt lump him with Primarchs. No one is in their tier other than Primarchs. Any Space Marine Captain will do crazy feats when the plot needs it, so Ragnar to me is literally that, nothing special. I play Marines myself and its one of the things I hate about them, I want some tragedy and lose thats meaningful. Loosing a company of Marines isnt that big when they seemingly act fine afterwards or somehow recruit more via Primaris, but loosing a big player like Ragnar? Cato? Khosorro? That is GRIM DARK, Heroes die. Ragnar "dying" and coming back means nothing. Its not a mortal wound if you survive it.
If Ragnar died but actually achieved something, say killing Orkimedies or another of Ghaz's big council members. That would of been better than this duel that ended up doing nothing. All it did was cheapen Ghaz to be some weedy runt who gets chopped up by a extra special Space Marine.
The sense of scale dies down. If it were Logan, id be a bit more warm to the idea, but Ragnar not so much. Its like M'shen killing Konrad, but instead of letting her do it, they actually fought and killed each other, Yeah they are both crazy good but one represents more than the other in the grand scheme of things and one is definitely in a different league than the other.
We are stuck with the stupid duel now so its nothing we can do about it, ill largely ignore it haha! Im going to shave off the stitches and liquid greenstuff the neck so Ghaz never actually had his head decapitated. Thats my opinion on the matter and I know others have strong opinions in the opposite camp, I just think its all silly.
Really it should of never happened, it shouldnt have even be Ragnar, I wanted the story of Helbrecht and Yarrick to continue.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/13 22:29:08
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
flandarz wrote: Even assuming Ghaz has lost far more duels than he has won (which, if you want to include every unnamed Warboss to challenge him, he probably hasn't), do you not consider it to be an issue that the top combatants of every other Faction lose duels far more often than the middle-ranked members of the Imperium? Does it not seem as though the "threats" of the universe are little more than plot devices on which to hang accolades of the Marines' victories? And this doesn't bother you in the slightest?
In short no, because Ghaz will not single handedly end the imperium via fist fights. He's a threat because he has armies in the untold billions, all who are hard to exterminate, superior to standard humans and dedicated to destruction. Just because he can mutually batter a legendary hero to death and survive having his head chopped off, doesn't mean he's useless or that orks are not a threat.
Ghaz is known for his ability to unite the ork race and shows an uncanny tactical foresight and strategic genius. Neither of those require him to be able to beat Ragnar in a fight.
....And this shows your lack of knowledge of Ork lore. Orks follow the strongest. If Ghaz isn't the strongest, Orks won't follow him. If he is beaten/beheaded by Ragnar, he is clearly not the strongest so Orks will not follow him. So he can't unite all the Orks and he is no real threat to the Imperium.
"Hard to exterminate"? On prior pages people have discussed how trivially easy it is for any faction to destroy Orks en masse. Captains beating literally thousands of Orks. We even had a short story that highlighted this here; https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/17/psychic-awakening-the-stand-of-the-sabre/ REAL tough to exterminate those Orks....
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
Hey man, don't throw us all in the same boat.
I mean, technically you aren't, but still.
You're not all "muH GirlYMaN is besstest!!!!11one" fanboys. Some though. Crikey.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.
Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?
Stop using facts and logic!
You misunderstand the use of the word exterminate. It's nigh impossible to stop orks from repopulating due to the spores they spread even in death. But sure, orks follow the biggest ork, which ghaz still is, providing he still beats other warbosses.
If Makari fights him to a draw that's fine, he's the luckiest grot in the galaxy.
I'm just fed up of the "omg he can't be beaten because ghaz is da ork leadurrrrr" fanboyism, many faction leaders are frankly crap or weak fighters.
They sent a renknown hero on a nigh impossible mission to kill him because he was a massive threat, which he survived after losing his head, but of course don't let that get in the way of complaining about how GW has blatant hard on for marines and targets orks to make them feel inferior.
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
Hey man, don't throw us all in the same boat.
I mean, technically you aren't, but still.
I play both Marines and Orkz, but for the whole Ghaz thing im leaning more towards the Ork side of things. Ive played Dark Angels before Orkz with them being my first army 15 years ago, but Orkz have been my more passionate race for about 13 years. With Skitarii a close second (I play Admech way more than both Dark Angels and Orkz combined).
The only thing im finding unreasonable is that Ragnar has a huger representation than Ghaz in the forms of BL novels. So people can claim (and rightly so) that Ragnar is not just a standard Wolf Lord/Captain/Company Master but Ghaz hasnt had the same amount of indepth lore. We dont know his feats, how he fights, as there isnt much to go on thats focused solely on him. We have Codex lore and the 7th ed Supplement, but neither goes into a more focused scope than just the engagements he was in and what tactics he employed. Ragnar may very well be in the Top 50 combatants for the Imperium but we havent got the same data on Ghaz's dueling history other than Belial (Who is one of the greatests swordsmen in the Imperium), some random Warbosses in his rise to power and thats about it. So I think its very unfair as Ghaz is literally in the dark in terms of dueling history, where as thematically, Ragnar is in the Shadow of Ghazghkull in regards to importance to the setting in general and what he represents.
If you got rid of Ragnar, how much of an impact would he have on the setting as a whole? Get rid of Ghaz and you have a much larger implication. The Orkz loose more than just a Captain who is easily replaced. Thats where I see the issue, Ghaz has more meat to him in the literal sense of the games overall storyline, he can only really go up from this point on until he is game ended. Ragnar kind of peters out once he becomes the Chapter Master. Ghaz has the galaxy at his finger tips, a mission to bring about the Ork gods, and to see the galaxy in unending Waaagh! What does Ragnar want? What would he do to the setting? He isnt the Regent of either side of the Imperium like Dante and Azrael (if im right for that part?). He isnt governing some super important world like Calgar, or has a seat on the High Lords of Terra.
If he wasnt included into this next PA, I would literally have no idea what Ragnar is doing or what his big aspirations are outside of the Chapter. He could disappear and would have no outer consequences to the story point. I dont mean that to offend any Wolves/Ragnar fans, im just being honest. There are many characters in the setting that dont really do much and dont get much lime light.
Overall I do agree with you Insectum! But I find the whole argument a bit silly they are two characters that shouldnt really have been connected in the first place, they may have had some history in a batrep in 2nd ed but I would of carried on (and possibly finish) existing conflicts involving Ghaz.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/13 22:33:42
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
Hey man, don't throw us all in the same boat.
I mean, technically you aren't, but still.
I play both Marines and Orkz, but for the whole Ghaz thing im leaning more towards the Ork side of things. Ive played Dark Angels before Orkz with them being my first army 15 years ago, but Orkz have been my more passionate race for about 13 years. With Skitarii a close second (I play Admech way more than both Dark Angels and Orkz combined).
The only thing im finding unreasonable is that Ragnar has a huger representation than Ghaz in the forms of BL novels. So people can claim (and rightly so) that Ragnar is not just a standard Wolf Lord/Captain/Company Master but Ghaz has had the same amount of indepth lore. We dont know his feats, how he fights, as there isnt much to go on thats focused solely on him. We have Codex lore and the 7th ed Supplement, but neither goes into a more focused scope than just the engagements he was in and what tactics he employed. Ragnar may very well be in the Top 50 combatants for the Imperium but we havent got the same data on Ghaz's dueling history other than Belial (Who is one of the greatests swordsmen in the Imperium), some random Warbosses in his rise to power and thats about it. So I think its very unfair as Ghaz is literally in the dark in terms of dueling history, where as thematically, Ragnar is in the Shadow of Ghazghkull in regards to importance to the setting in general and what he represents.
If you got rid of Ragnar, how much of an impact would he have on the setting as a whole? Get rid of Ghaz and you have a much larger implication. The Orkz loose more than just a Captain who is easily replaced. Thats where is see the issue, Ghaz has more meat to him in the literal sense of the games overall storyline, he can only really go up from this point on until he is game ended. Ragnar kind of peters out once he becomes the Chapter Master. Ghaz has the galaxy at his finger tips, a mission to bring about the Ork gods, and to see the galaxy in unending Waaagh! What does Ragnar want? What would he do to the setting? He isnt the Regent of either side of the Imperium like Dante and Azrael (if im right for that part?). He isnt governing some super important world like Calgar, or has a seat on the High Lords of Terra.
If he wasnt included into this next PA, I would literally have no idea what Ragnar is doing or what his big aspirations are outside of the Chapter. He could disappear and would have no outer consequences to the story point. I dont mean that to offend any Wolves/Ragnar fans, im just being honest. There are many characters in the setting that dont really do much and dont get much lime light.
Overall I do agree with you Insectum! But I find the whole argument a bit silly they are two characters that shouldnt really have been connected in the first place, they may have had some history in a batrep in 2nd ed but I would of carried on (and possibly finish) existing conflicts involving Ghaz.
A very fair and reasonable post detailing things in a passive and informative manner, thank you.
I agree that ragnar is in an odd spot fluff wise, it wouldn't be hard for them to macguffin up another big warboss though perhaps.
The fact is that ghaz lives, is bigger than ever and possibly the only 40k character surviving a decapitation, the fact he isn't immortal however doesn't undermine the threat he represents imo.
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
Hey man, don't throw us all in the same boat.
I mean, technically you aren't, but still.
I play both Marines and Orkz, but for the whole Ghaz thing im leaning more towards the Ork side of things. Ive played Dark Angels before Orkz with them being my first army 15 years ago, but Orkz have been my more passionate race for about 13 years. With Skitarii a close second (I play Admech way more than both Dark Angels and Orkz combined).
The only thing im finding unreasonable is that Ragnar has a huger representation than Ghaz in the forms of BL novels. So people can claim (and rightly so) that Ragnar is not just a standard Wolf Lord/Captain/Company Master but Ghaz has had the same amount of indepth lore. We dont know his feats, how he fights, as there isnt much to go on thats focused solely on him. We have Codex lore and the 7th ed Supplement, but neither goes into a more focused scope than just the engagements he was in and what tactics he employed. Ragnar may very well be in the Top 50 combatants for the Imperium but we havent got the same data on Ghaz's dueling history other than Belial (Who is one of the greatests swordsmen in the Imperium), some random Warbosses in his rise to power and thats about it. So I think its very unfair as Ghaz is literally in the dark in terms of dueling history, where as thematically, Ragnar is in the Shadow of Ghazghkull in regards to importance to the setting in general and what he represents.
If you got rid of Ragnar, how much of an impact would he have on the setting as a whole? Get rid of Ghaz and you have a much larger implication. The Orkz loose more than just a Captain who is easily replaced. Thats where is see the issue, Ghaz has more meat to him in the literal sense of the games overall storyline, he can only really go up from this point on until he is game ended. Ragnar kind of peters out once he becomes the Chapter Master. Ghaz has the galaxy at his finger tips, a mission to bring about the Ork gods, and to see the galaxy in unending Waaagh! What does Ragnar want? What would he do to the setting? He isnt the Regent of either side of the Imperium like Dante and Azrael (if im right for that part?). He isnt governing some super important world like Calgar, or has a seat on the High Lords of Terra.
If he wasnt included into this next PA, I would literally have no idea what Ragnar is doing or what his big aspirations are outside of the Chapter. He could disappear and would have no outer consequences to the story point. I dont mean that to offend any Wolves/Ragnar fans, im just being honest. There are many characters in the setting that dont really do much and dont get much lime light.
Overall I do agree with you Insectum! But I find the whole argument a bit silly they are two characters that shouldnt really have been connected in the first place, they may have had some history in a batrep in 2nd ed but I would of carried on (and possibly finish) existing conflicts involving Ghaz.
A very fair and reasonable post detailing things in a passive and informative manner, thank you.
I agree that ragnar is in an odd spot fluff wise, it wouldn't be hard for them to macguffin up another big warboss though perhaps.
The fact is that ghaz lives, is bigger than ever and possibly the only 40k character surviving a decapitation, the fact he isn't immortal however doesn't undermine the threat he represents imo.
Oh yeah I agree, I actually wouldnt care if Ghaz died, or if he did get his head chopped off and reattached. Its more the why and not the how. I actually love Ragnar, I just dont see the connection personally to Ghaz. If Helbrecht did this Id be like hell fething yea!!!!! But the way both sides didnt really loose anything? The importance of the duel doesnt really have any solidity to it. Why break a neck and loose a head when you both just get flex taped back to peak fighting form (and better might I add). I could get behind Ragnar tracking down Ghazzie and them closing the noose on him, with aid of some Steel Legion Ork Hunters and a strike force of similar veterans from Ghaz's wars. But I wouldnt have had to duel to begin with.
The thing we these duels are, they always spark conflict in the community, one side thinks theyre boy is better. I kind of agree with the post earlier (I think it was Insectum) where the characters commanded the forces and if they did fight someone, it was a nameless face. Comic style fights dont tend to end well, both sides feel like they are under-represented or given a bad showing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 22:45:11
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
I'm just fed up of the "omg he can't be beaten because ghaz is da ork leadurrrrr" fanboyism, many faction leaders are frankly crap or weak fighters.
That's nothing like what this is or what anyone is saying though? I'd love it for Ghaz to lose, or indeed elect to run away, when faced with a suitable threat. Choosing to run would show his intelligence, which is part of what makes him scary. 'But AAE, what's a suitable threat brooo?' I hear you cry. Good question. A character on the same level within their respective faction. Guilliman'. Dante. Farsight. Eldrad. Vect. Swarmlord. There's a few examples. Some of these may 'beat' Ghaz' using guile rather than brawn. But they are the correct 'tier' of character. They are the top character within their respective faction.
Ghaz getting his head cut off by Ragnar does not seem like it'll lead to an interesting story that is well written and emphasises the most terrifying elements of Ghaz' as a character.
They sent a renknown hero on a nigh impossible mission to kill him because he was a massive threat, which he survived after losing his head, but of course don't let that get in the way of complaining about how GW has blatant hard on for marines and targets orks to make them feel inferior.
A mission isn't 'nigh impossible' if it's achieved is it? As renown as Ragnar is, he is not on Ghaz's level. This is a quantifiable fact. For SW alone Russ is above him, as is Grimnar. No Ork is above Ghaz'. It doesn't seem that Ghaz' is 'a massive threat' when he gets decapitated by Ragnar either. Quite the opposite.
Talking from a meta perspective we all knew neither would die. I gotta be honest I'm surprised Ghaz' didn't just pummell Ragnar and leave him for dead at least off screen. His pride is his biggest real weakness. Further GW didn't need Ghaz' to be beheaded to justify his larger model. It's utterly unnecessary. All this has achieved is cheapen Ghaz's standing on the galactic stage. If a SM Captain (of great renown no less! Seriously I think you'd struggle to find a SM Captain that isn't 'of great renown') can behead him, he's not really a threat, is he? He can't really stand in the same arena as Primarchs, which is bizarre because his new model looks like it was made to allow him that gravitas. It's all very confused.
I don't think anyone has argued that Ghaz should be undefeatable, or that no one should be able to fight him to a draw. We just feel like a pre-Primaris Ragnar doing so makes Ghaz seem far less formidable. He's the current epitome of what an Ork should be. Big. Strong. Kunnin'. Etc. He should be the best fighter the Orkz can churn out. And he was fought to a draw, not by the best example of humanity. Nor the second best. Nor even the fiftieth best. Ragnar is a formidable foe, for sure, but he's one of a thousand equally formidable foes within the Space Marines. Of which there are hundreds of MORE formidable fighters. So, where does that leave Ghaz and the Orkz when the best they can bring to bear draws against the hundreth best the Imperium can throw out? It should make you wonder why the Imperium doesn't just gather a handful of the badasses, backs them up with a Chapter or two, and just nips Thraka's threat in the bud before he can become an actual problem.
deffrekka wrote: The only problem I have with the whole thing is how under-represented Ghaz is really in 40k. He hasnt got a series of novels dedicated solely about him from his perspective, we dont really get to know any duels hes been in except Belial and a few named Warbosses and a Tyrgon. He hasnt really had any further in-depth background done about him outside of the Codex and the 7th ed Supplement book.
So whilst Ragnar has had all these Mary-Sue acts of throwing spears through Magnus' eye, surviving battles against Daemonic Primarchs and slaying Greater Daemons to flesh out his character and see the scope of his feats and abilities, you dont really see that with Ghaz.
And whilst I personally dont want Ghaz to have insanely unlikely duel outcomes (like Ragnars), it would be nice to get a greater understanding of the Beast. I see Ghaz as more of a Gorgutz on a larger scale. He knows how to fight, where to fight and when not to fight. He isnt dumb, he isnt some rage driven Warboss like Grukk. He simply gets stuff done. And thats what I like about Ghaz, he is a THREAT. Not to random X character that fights him, but to the warzones he appears in. He molds the Orkz into something else; smarter, more driven, better technology, crazy tactics, "disciplined" restraint.
He unites the various Klans and put all the best Warlords and Oddboys under one banner working together (like Nazdreg sharing his teleporta tech). So Ghaz is a huge deal and I may be biased but I dont want Ragnar (who really is just a Captain) beating the crap out of Ghaz. It cheapens him not because of the raw power that Ghaz should have but more of the physical thing Ghaz represents. He is the TOP ORK. He is the defacto leader whether the boys like it or not. He has a vision that he is actually completing.
He isnt a Prime-Ork but what he is to the race is pretty damn close. I wouldnt even put him in the same boat as Chapter Masters, but I wouldnt lump him with Primarchs. No one is in their tier other than Primarchs. Any Space Marine Captain will do crazy feats when the plot needs it, so Ragnar to me is literally that, nothing special. I play Marines myself and its one of the things I hate about them, I want some tragedy and lose thats meaningful. Loosing a company of Marines isnt that big when they seemingly act fine afterwards or somehow recruit more via Primaris, but loosing a big player like Ragnar? Cato? Khosorro? That is GRIM DARK, Heroes die. Ragnar "dying" and coming back means nothing. Its not a mortal wound if you survive it.
If Ragnar died but actually achieved something, say killing Orkimedies or another of Ghaz's big council members. That would of been better than this duel that ended up doing nothing. All it did was cheapen Ghaz to be some weedy runt who gets chopped up by a extra special Space Marine.
The sense of scale dies down. If it were Logan, id be a bit more warm to the idea, but Ragnar not so much. Its like M'shen killing Konrad, but instead of letting her do it, they actually fought and killed each other, Yeah they are both crazy good but one represents more than the other in the grand scheme of things and one is definitely in a different league than the other.
We are stuck with the stupid duel now so its nothing we can do about it, ill largely ignore it haha! Im going to shave off the stitches and liquid greenstuff the neck so Ghaz never actually had his head decapitated. Thats my opinion on the matter and I know others have strong opinions in the opposite camp, I just think its all silly.
Really it should of never happened, it shouldnt have even be Ragnar, I wanted the story of Helbrecht and Yarrick to continue.
Most of Psychic Awakening has been this boring non-consequential mess of story telling. I've never been more bored by Status Quo keeping than the stuff we've seen in psychic awakening.
First was Phoenix Rising's lazy eldar writing where it ended with their complete defeat. Then we have Ghaz getting beheaded by Ragnar which is a bit insulting to Ork Players. Some random ass space marine captain defeated one of the most powerful living ork warlords in the entirety of 40k. He gets defeated like a cartoon villain thrown around like a headless volleyball and planted into a new body. Which devalues his character and his presence as a villain. If someone is that easy to defeat then whats the point of fearing them? Its why I think this a perfect example of Worfing. Ghaz was Worfed, to prove how powerful Ragnar was. I wrote a similar thread on r/40klore about the Farseer Condrorum and how GW always likes to use Avatars of Khaine as a measuring stick for how powerful a space marine or chaos character is.
Here we have Ragnar who by all purposes is a well known character, defeats one of the most powerful orks in 40k. Which is just kind of boring? So he won? Okay? But what does that mean for ragnar? He is not that important of a space marine, he isn't a chapter master, he is only a captain. And he really didn't succeed cause Ghaz just came back from the dead, and more powerful than before. Yet somehow we are told this is an important development? Why? Cause they want to sell more models. I hope they take this entire psychic awakening and retcon the hell out of it. Cause it has been the most bland and boring lore we've had in the entirety of 40k 8th edition.
Its pretty boring and bland writing tbh, and even if they try to justify it, it is still stupid and boring. Just for once, why can't the space marines fail? Why is it that a childrens book had the space marines lose hopeless to an Alien threat but mainline 40k space marines are near invincible in the lore?
I agree with what has been said in this thread, but its just a symptom of forcing down rules into books and thinking you need lore to accompany them. These reek of being forced out quickly to meet quotas, so the writing were was going to be terrible. Great for rules, and balancing but man, I find it really hard to care about 40k lore anymore, especially if this is all we get.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 22:54:14
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
Hey man, don't throw us all in the same boat.
I mean, technically you aren't, but still.
I play both Marines and Orkz, but for the whole Ghaz thing im leaning more towards the Ork side of things. Ive played Dark Angels before Orkz with them being my first army 15 years ago, but Orkz have been my more passionate race for about 13 years. With Skitarii a close second (I play Admech way more than both Dark Angels and Orkz combined).
The only thing im finding unreasonable is that Ragnar has a huger representation than Ghaz in the forms of BL novels. So people can claim (and rightly so) that Ragnar is not just a standard Wolf Lord/Captain/Company Master but Ghaz hasnt had the same amount of indepth lore. We dont know his feats, how he fights, as there isnt much to go on thats focused solely on him. We have Codex lore and the 7th ed Supplement, but neither goes into a more focused scope than just the engagements he was in and what tactics he employed. Ragnar may very well be in the Top 50 combatants for the Imperium but we havent got the same data on Ghaz's dueling history other than Belial (Who is one of the greatests swordsmen in the Imperium), some random Warbosses in his rise to power and thats about it. So I think its very unfair as Ghaz is literally in the dark in terms of dueling history, where as thematically, Ragnar is in the Shadow of Ghazghkull in regards to importance to the setting in general and what he represents.
If you got rid of Ragnar, how much of an impact would he have on the setting as a whole? Get rid of Ghaz and you have a much larger implication. The Orkz loose more than just a Captain who is easily replaced. Thats where I see the issue, Ghaz has more meat to him in the literal sense of the games overall storyline, he can only really go up from this point on until he is game ended. Ragnar kind of peters out once he becomes the Chapter Master. Ghaz has the galaxy at his finger tips, a mission to bring about the Ork gods, and to see the galaxy in unending Waaagh! What does Ragnar want? What would he do to the setting? He isnt the Regent of either side of the Imperium like Dante and Azrael (if im right for that part?). He isnt governing some super important world like Calgar, or has a seat on the High Lords of Terra.
If he wasnt included into this next PA, I would literally have no idea what Ragnar is doing or what his big aspirations are outside of the Chapter. He could disappear and would have no outer consequences to the story point. I dont mean that to offend any Wolves/Ragnar fans, im just being honest. There are many characters in the setting that dont really do much and dont get much lime light.
Overall I do agree with you Insectum! But I find the whole argument a bit silly they are two characters that shouldnt really have been connected in the first place, they may have had some history in a batrep in 2nd ed but I would of carried on (and possibly finish) existing conflicts involving Ghaz.
Nice post, and I think you touch on a point that I like a lot when it comes to Ragnar not meaning very much in the grand scheme of things. Space Marine Chapters are institutions that live longer than the individuals involved with them. Space Marine leaders come and go, but the Chapter stays. Whereas an Ork Waaagh is built around an individual Ork. That's why Ghaz the individual has such weight.
I largely agree that these vs. arguments are silly, and they almost always wind up with people being upset about the outcome of the duel. This is why I prefer the strategic move-countermove narratives depicting greater battle sequences and not these scenes depicting "what would happen if <blank> vs. <blank> meet in a fight. The notion that they shouldn't have even met in the first place rings true.
flandarz wrote:It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.
Kinda? Ghaz just needs to beat the Ork stupid enough to challenge him, but he doesn't need to duel them all - if he can threaten them, or promise enough fights/loot/teef, he can get them in line as well. Krumpin 'eads is only really needed to assert physical dominance, and Ghaz is smarter than to need that all the time.
Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?
Considering that Makari is widely considered to be supernaturally lucky (and that's his whole thing), him blustering through a duel with a hero of the Space Marines would be utterly hilarious, and I'd have no issue with it.
An Actual Englishman wrote:What a load of rubbish. Calgar beat Swarmlord because Swarmlord is just as useless a villain as Ghaz now is. They both exist only to show how badass the Marine of the moment is.
Truly, a great mystery.
So, when the xenos win, it's totally valid and important, but when a Space Marine wins, it's just there to make the Marines look good?
I'm not saying that that's not the case sometimes, but it's not ALL the time.
Dante is the TOP BLOOD ANGEL. It doesn't make him Sanguinius.
No, it doesn't. But it makes him roughly as important to BA players because he is as good as it gets.
But I'm talking actual rank, across the entire timeline of 40k here. Not just M41.
That's implying that Ragnar isn't also a character with a similarly long and storied past, a character who's killed Greater Daemons and suchlike.
No, it implies exactly what I said. Ragnar is not, without question, the TOP SPACEWOLF. He is therefore not on the same level as Ghaz.
So what about Calgar then? He's not even strictly they "top Ultramarine". Does that mean that he's now below Ghaz, even though other Chapter Masters, who have long been equal to him, are now above him, purely because of Guilliman? Does that mean that Guilliman is equal to someone like Azrael or Grimnar?
Nazdreg getting a mutual ""kill"" on Calgar? I'm fine with that. Ooops, is that the sound of your argument falling apart?
Don't pretend you know what my beliefs are, yeah?
My fault for not properly explaining my point (although I thought it was obvious, if you read the rest of my post and took it in context).
Would you be happy with Nazdreg getting a mutual "kill" on GUILLIMAN? Didn't think so.
Yup, keep shifting the goalposts, mate.
I'm talking EQUIVALENT characters, or characters to one degree of equivalence. Nazdreg is a high ranking Warboss (so, equivalent to someone like Sicarius, or Ragnar, or Sammael) - Calgar is a Ghaz equivalent. Guilliman is a Primarch, and far outclasses them.
But good try with the goalposts.
And we've seen Ragnar beat characters on the Greater Daemon scale too. It's not like Ragnar doesn't also have his heroics behind him.
Ghaz is MORE than a Greater Daemon. He's the faction leader.
No, he's not. He's the most influential Ork, but doesn't lead every Ork. He doesn't even lead half of them! Therefore, he's not the Faction Leader, in the same way that Creed or Yarrick aren't Faction Leaders.
All I'm saying is that I'm looking at this from what we've been presented, not from what we both (yes, both - I'd have liked Ghaz to be a Prime-Ork by now, but that's not what we got) wanted.
No, the fact that you have written pages of text defending why Ghaz should be beheaded by Ragnar shows what you wanted pretty obviously.
I'm not defending Ghaz being beheaded. I'm simply pointing out the very hyperbolic arguments being made against it.
Would I have written this duel the same way, had I been working at GW? Absolutely not. Is it as bad as some people are saying? Well, without context, we don't know, but I don't think it is.
And you're claiming objectivity, the self-confessed biased Ork player?
No? Literally. As I referred to myself as "biased" I think it's pretty obvious that I am not objective. But that doesn't make you objective. Not by a long shot.
So, why should I be paying attention?
It really isn't. Ghaz isn't on Guilliman tier. As you say above - "leaps of logic don't help this discussion".
It absolutely is. Ghaz is equal to Guilliman as far as Orks are concerned. Your claim otherwise only shows your ignorance and complete lack of understanding of the point I have repeatedly made.
No, he's not. He's a Calgar/Grimnar/Dante/Azrael equal. A Guilliman equal would be a Prime-Ork - and while I'd *like for Ghaz to be at that stage, he is not*.
You are beyond reason, which isn't unusual for Marine players, unfortunately.
Oooh, yes, go on, tar us all! I'm just pointing out facts here: if your biases don't allow that, that's not on me.
No it doesn't, because they are Marine fanboys who want to see their pet faction boss everything else.
I've already said I'm more a fan of Orks than I am Wolves. Doesn't change facts that this isn't fluff-breaking.
As I also made clear (which you attempted to snare me with), I'd be more than happy for the same to happen to my own preferred factions and heroes, because it would make sense. It's got nothing to do with "only marine can win!" and any argument claiming that is just projecting.
deffrekka wrote:And whilst I personally dont want Ghaz to have insanely unlikely duel outcomes (like Ragnars), it would be nice to get a greater understanding of the Beast. I see Ghaz as more of a Gorgutz on a larger scale. He knows how to fight, where to fight and when not to fight. He isnt dumb, he isnt some rage driven Warboss like Grukk. He simply gets stuff done. And thats what I like about Ghaz, he is a THREAT. Not to random X character that fights him, but to the warzones he appears in. He molds the Orkz into something else; smarter, more driven, better technology, crazy tactics, "disciplined" restraint.
Yup - that's why he's special. Not because he krumps the 'ardest, but because he's the smartest, the most tactically gifted, and knows how to get the Orks united. And while he's not quite there yet, he easily has the potential for Prime-Ork-dom.
Ragnar "dying" and coming back means nothing. Its not a mortal wound if you survive it.
Also agreed, it's lazy stakes, but by the same token, Ghaz "dying" and then coming straight back also means nothing, right?
I think most of us agree that these Commanders should actually command and not go 'balls to the wall, let's have a duel!'
Ragnar, is more the 'lead from the front' kinda guy though, from what I gather. Ghaz perhaps less so but Orks gonna Orks I guess and apparently Ragnar managed to somehow sneak through Ghaz's armada, multiple occupied worlds full of Orks and any other senses the Orks possess.
Also agreed, it's lazy stakes, but by the same token, Ghaz "dying" and then coming straight back also means nothing, right?
Isn't that most of psychic awakening? It literally means nothing at all? Nothing has at all happened that was consequential or meaningful for anyone involved?
Like I get people are angry on both sides, but lets be honest has PA been at all interesting in any real regards? Its just resteps and nothing big happening at all. The most consequential thing to happen was the Great Work. No major characters have died, no major regions have been lost, none have been taken, no new heroes for us to root for.
ITs been kind of like someone pushed out all this lore at the last minute. There is nothing in this that really pushes 40k or transforms it in anyway real manner. You could skip PA and you wouldn't even know the difference.
Honestly the best lore GW does is when it is not these major character are involved in the slightest but background characters. 40k is a setting and GW refuses to introduce new characters that drive consequential events in these campaign books. So far we have had no real developments and if we continue to have all these big characters thrown it turns into a saturday night cartoon cause we can't kill anyone off.
There will continue to be non-consequential events if we continue this trend of pitting big players against one another.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 23:00:42
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
