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I have no strong feelings about the Ragnar story, but I would argue that Ghaz being killed and coming back is entertaining. It certainly sounds Orky enough.

"Didn't you die?"

"Yes. But then I got better!"


Maybe Ragnar should have been crippled instead. Make him a unit similar the Adepta Sororitas' Triumph of Saint Katherine or the old dwarf unit that had their leader carted around the field. Or even better, Bjorn finally dies and Ragnar is interred in his place. Tragic, moves the plot and give the Bjorn unit new rules.

Eh, Calgar's already playing the "crippled war leader" part post Vigilus.

I'm a bit disappointed that Ragnar was able to decapitate Ghaz. I'd have liked for Ghaz to have grown in stature since we last saw him, as orks apparently do as they live longer and win more battles. I'd have liked him to have been re-introduced as a Lord of War on par with the ork beasts of the Crusade and post-heresy era.

That's not to knock Ragnar, but i'd prefer it if a Space Marine (any Space Marine) even one as skilled and accomplished as the very best of them, not to be able to compete one to one against some threats. There should be some monsters out there that are not able to be poked in the eye by a space marine, or to have their heart carved upon which i think similarly reduced the threat posed by the monsters humanity is fighting.

Now I haven't actually read the story of Ragnar v Ghaz (it isn't actually out yet is it?), but if it portrays Ragnar as out-thinking Ghaz and using his army to isolate him and soften him up before delivering the decapitating blow, I'd be perfectly ok with that, so I'll reserve judgement for now.

As for Ragnar almost being killed and being Primarised... I think that's only to be expected at the moment, but it isn't particularly original. Maybe I'd prefer if he had heroically volunteered for the procedure to set an example, but I don't know.

I like the Primaris models and don't really have any issues with the lore of Primaris Marines, even if it does feel a bit shoe-horned in, but the Primarisification of existing heroes is particularly tedious. I don't mind them getting Primarised so much as the in-universe explanations are getting very repetitive.

Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:For a long time you needed your opponents permission to use special characters, so even though they were taking part in in-universe plotlines, they weren't on every table the way they are now.

They've been this way for over ten years now, at least. May have been for a long time before you needed permission, but that's not been the case for a similarly long time.

When it happened is rather beside the point.

When there's comments that start making out like this is all a new development, and how 'everything new is bad', I think it rather *is* important, if only just to stop the spread of misinformation.

Unique characters have been easily accessible in game, and popping out and about in the setting at important events for well over 10 years. That's not a "new" thing. Making comments like "for a long time..." trivialises the equally long time we've had with easily accessible heroes.

The point is that the treatment of said characters has changed in emphasis. Not even about whether or not characters performed heroic acts, but how much the storytelling focuses on the acts of those individuals.

Similarly, I don't think that's been a massive change either, over those 10+ years. Sure, the characters are bigger (Primarchs), but they're still fundamentally doing the same things. Not every battlefield was dominated by Abaddon and Calgar in previous editions, and the same can be said now.

Aash wrote:I like the Primaris models and don't really have any issues with the lore of Primaris Marines, even if it does feel a bit shoe-horned in, but the Primarisification of existing heroes is particularly tedious. I don't mind them getting Primarised so much as the in-universe explanations are getting very repetitive.

Yeah, I must say I agree with this.
It seems that every Primaris-upgraded character we get was a result of some catastrophic injury that forced them into needing to cross the Rubicon. Sure, maybe it's not the majority (something like 50/50), but it feels tedious, as you say.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists and Captain Tycho of the Blood Angels are also special characters who've died.

Let us not forget the more recent sacrifice of Colour Sergeant Kell.

 Kcalehc wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Does it just feel like the PA stories are being rushed to allow GW to release new hero model for each army. And for every SM chapter he’s at deaths door and had to cross the rubicon primaris

What they need to do, to make it have any real meaning, is have at least one character attempt to become Primaris, and die on the table permanently. Saying "oh its a 60% chance of success" is meaningless if important characters have 100% of success.

I think the best candidate for this is the chapter master of the Lamentors. Someone of familiar enough esteem, yet also obscure enough to be disposable... plus is Lamentors, failing horribly is their thing.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists and Captain Tycho of the Blood Angels are also special characters who've died.

Let us not forget the more recent sacrifice of Colour Sergeant Kell.

In fairness though Imperial Guard and Space Marines are very differant in terms of their feel. IG are the faceless mooks in the grinder. thats what their feel is and thats what their fans like. I mean to be honest I suspect few guard players care about guard characters too much. meanwhile marines are... almost super heros, larger then life etc. and thus, GW belives Marine players care more about marine characters. (weather they do or not is up for debate).

I think what gets me the most, is that none of these deeds are special.

They're literally just ever Tuesday for them or anyone of their standing.

Do marine captains not kill Ork warbosses on the regular? Do warbosses not also kill captains?

Do commissars not normally rally troops against impossible odds to hold the line? Do they not also fight enemy leaders and kill or be killed by them

Do chaos lords not go on their own galactic rampages for their own goals?

The only thing special about these characters is that their deeds are expounded in purple prose.

The fact is there probably have been more commissars named olanius who have rallied more troops in more warzones than yarrick ever did...

No one expects that because captain Jeff of the space Chads also killed an Ork warboss he somehow matters to the continuing story of 40k.

Killing warbosses is what he was HIRED to do.


The only thing they've got going for them is that they keep tying named characters into each other. It's special because it was gazghkull, or it's special because it was drazhar.

But naming your kills doesn't change the fact that they are still just the thing your rank always faces anyway.

Honestly I don't understand why many people want their factions characters to be one dimensional superheroes that never lose. All of the Eighth Legion's primary characters, including their primarch, are either dead or M.I.A. and I feel that makes them more interesting. It adds to their characterization as bitter veterans of a lost cause, continuing to fight just because that's all they know.

Makes me love the murderous fethers all the more.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Eh, Calgar's already playing the "crippled war leader" part post Vigilus.

Calgar should have died.
And I tell you that being and Ultramarines fan who owns a Calgar model !

Gadzilla666 wrote:
It's new, from the upcoming Saga of the Beast. My question is how the hell did Ragnar behead Ghaz if his neck was broken and how the feth did Ghaz break Ragnar's neck if he'd been beheaded? One or the other had to happen first.

An idea I had for my ork warlord was for him to have "defeated" a Deathwatch sergeant who's kill team had boarded his ship. Basically the warlord charged the sergeant, who beheaded the warlord but was unable to get out of the way of the crushing bulk of the mega-armored body and was smooshed to death against a bulkhead. The dok stitched the warlord's head back on and so he was the winner.

That's probably not how the fight between Ragnar and Ghazzy will go down. At least I hope it's not.

(I'm not going to use that particular bit of fan fluff about my warlord anymore, as I don't want to be seen as copying the Gaz story. I'm glad I didn't put the effort into modeling him up with a detachable head.)

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
I’m expecting more character deaths in the future, once the Index/Legacy rules stick. A good way to kill off characters.

I don't. I just expect some characters to be culled from codexes. It happened for years. Sergeant McSo-and-So and Eldar McPointy just didn't turn up the next time around. No explanation or death given or provided.

Really I just want to see Master Belial and Grand Marshall Helbrecht react to the fact that a furry with a chainsword stole their kill. In all seriousness they should have just had Ghazghull thrash Ragnar but do so at the cost of the greater battle like the Night of the Wolf between the World Eaters and Space Wolves. Cutting of Ghaz’s head was unnecessary. Also rather shocking that the wolves didn’t keep the head since they’re only a handful is skulls away from being Khorne worshippers anyways.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Really I just want to see Master Belial and Grand Marshall Helbrecht react to the fact that a furry with a chainsword stole their kill. In all seriousness they should have just had Ghazghull thrash Ragnar but do so at the cost of the greater battle like the Night of the Wolf between the World Eaters and Space Wolves. Cutting of Ghaz’s head was unnecessary. Also rather shocking that the wolves didn’t keep the head since they’re only a handful is skulls away from being Khorne worshippers anyways.

Ghaz winning a personal fight at the loss of the war would be UTTERLY out of character for him, he's a canny Son of a gun

Offscreen.Its classi GW styled pathethic fluff. Its like they couldnt just have Ragnar lose, so they had to make him actually kill Ghazzy first (Ragnar didnt fully die) to not upset SM/SW fans. It heavily undermines how threatening Ghazgkhul is that he actually lost to Ragnar. Pathetic.

Ragnar should be in Dreadnought.. it will made him badass and keep him alive with his broken body.
I agreed with space wolf would take Ghazghkull head home, to frame it. Why can’t they done that?!

Edit: if GW keeping everyone alive, then they all are old as Dante....

Hellebore wrote:
The main difference in 40k now is the narrative focus.

It used to be the inexorable March of time, sweeping everyone along with it. Wars fought, heroes died and time marched on.

Special characters were players on the stage like everyone else. It's not like a chapter master is immortal, they die and are replaced all the time. Skip 1000 years into the future and no special characters alive now and be around.

The current story is now character centric. The narrative is driven around the characters and their actions.

They are now the prime drivers of actions in the setting.

Now they sweep the galaxy along with them, rather than the other way around.

This was the last vestige of verisimilitude the setting had. It reflected real life where the world just happened and we just live in it. It's one of the reasons imo 40k has had such great appeal, this intangible feeling of authenticity, not in the sense of chainsaw swords and space Orks, but in the sense of the powerlessness of existing in a world that doesn't care about you and will continue 0n without you.

Now 40k is firmly on the comic book narrative train and it has become far less than it was.


I remember a time when people were arguing the affect of trying to stick ctan into all parts of the story. Now they're trying to jam every character into every event across the galaxy.

You are 100 percent right. I didnt even notice either, but before 8th edition I didnt really care about any of the characters.

Like yean, Creed was Awesome and Azrael was a badass, but to me they didnt actually matter. They were just characters.

Now characters are like celebreties. Even after 112 years most the same people are still around and jumpung back and forth across the Great Rift as if it doesnt exist. And it really doesnt feel like it exists either. The galaxy feels so tiny now. Not just cause of the more character centric narrative, but because of how insignificant anything is when it doesnt involve our special characters

123ply wrote:Its like they couldnt just have Ragnar lose, so they had to make him actually kill Ghazzy first (Ragnar didnt fully die) to not upset SM/SW fans. It heavily undermines how threatening Ghazgkhul is that he actually lost to Ragnar. Pathetic.

Could this not also apply the other way around?
"It's not like they couldn't just have Ghaz lose, so they had to make him actually kill Ragnar first (Ghaz didn't fully die) not to upset Ork fans. It heavily undermines how threatening Ragnar is that he could actually lose to Ghaz. Pathetic."

Ghaz isn't the Beast yet. He's a large Ork Warboss/Warlord, and a terrifyingly cunning one, but you know what's probably bigger and meaner? A Swarmlord. An Avatar of Khaine. A Great Daemon, or Daemon Primarch. Oh, these are all things that Space Marine heroes can/have killed. I agree that Space Marines (especially Wolves) need taking down a peg, but acting like this also wasn't favouritism for the Orks too misses the mark. Both Ragnar AND Ghaz had plot armour here, and they were both held to the expectation that they couldn't "just lose".

If Yarrick killed Ghaz, and didn't die in the effort, would that have made more sense? I don't think so.

Obviously the leader of an entire xenos faction being killed by a less important character from a Space Marine subfaction is completely fair and normal.
Xenos are second class NPC factions compared to space marines. Our job is to die and make them look cool. We all know this, some of us just don't accept it.

 Da Boss wrote:
Obviously the leader of an entire xenos faction being killed by a less important character from a Space Marine subfaction is completely fair and normal.

Less important is relative. To a Space Wolves player, Ragnar's pretty damn important.
Also, Ghaz isn't the "leader of an entire xenos faction" any more so than Calgar is the leader of all Space Marines. He's the leader of the largest Waaagh!, and is widely considered the most influential Ork in the current age of 40k, but he doesn't lead the entire race. That's what he's trying to do, but hasn't got there yet.

Not that I'm either an SW fan or Ork fan, but for what it's worth, I prefer Orks more.

Indeed. Your technical argument has entirely defeated me.

the writers should just have a spin wheel, a coin and a dice set up in the office, and work everything out by throwing it all to chance. that would solve all these problems.

the Great rift should have been used to enhance the grim darkness of the galaxy for humans. I.e the empire is cut in half and now the forces of chaos can pour out into the galaxy. And for this they should have improved and updated chaos army lists. For the imperium they could have introduced all of the primarchs as this is what the lore has always said would happen. And then if they wanted to sell more SM models I think we’d have all been happy if they’d made a new range of models that are as nice looking as the new primaris.

As it is RG comes back and cawl comes out of nowhere with is never ending batch of super duper soldiers and says “don’t worry guys I got this”. So where a the peril it feeeeeeeeeels like humanity is on the front foot in the galaxy now and the threat is less.

And now Ghaz is suffering as a character because he has to be part of a half arsed story to enable GW to sell a space wolves primaris character.

When Fabius gets released I bet you that he will have gone through some story in which he is trying to get primaris glands and he ends up fighting a character from, well white scars are probably next, and he kills that guy and that guys crosses the rubicon and something happened to Fabius that buffed him. And we will have to go through this for IH, IF and so on

While I agree that Ghaz isn't the leader of the entire Faction, he IS the most important and most powerful Ork in the 40k universe. So I can understand when folks say "this makes Orkz seem like a minor annoyance at best" when the strongest and most influential Ork we got gets taken out in this way. It'd kind of be like if G-Man was defeated by Grotsnik; you'd wonder why this character who is supposed to be the "top dog" got beaten by someone who takes orders from even bigger threats.

That said, I imagine the fight would go something along these lines:

1) Ragnar and Ghaz find each other on the field of combat.
2) Ragnar promptly proceeds to get his behind handed to him, losing his arm in the process.
3) As Ghaz gloats over his victory (as he is wont to do), the nearly dead Ragnar throws a "hail mary" and manages to lop Ghaz's head off.
4) The giant Ork topples onto Ragnar, breaking his neck.
5) Ragnar's fellow Marines, seeing their fallen Captain, make a retreat and drag him with them.
6) The Grots find Ghaz's head and Grotsnik kindly reattaches it.
7) Ragnar crosses the Rubicon and we have arrived at the "present".

This would allow Ghaz (and the Orkz) to remain a "threat", while still playing to the Space Marine fluff of "winning even when the odds are stacked against you".

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
the writers should just have a spin wheel, a coin and a dice set up in the office, and work everything out by throwing it all to chance. that would solve all these problems.

They must be have GW version Storycubes. Heh

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

123ply wrote:Its like they couldnt just have Ragnar lose, so they had to make him actually kill Ghazzy first (Ragnar didnt fully die) to not upset SM/SW fans. It heavily undermines how threatening Ghazgkhul is that he actually lost to Ragnar. Pathetic.

Could this not also apply the other way around?
"It's not like they couldn't just have Ghaz lose, so they had to make him actually kill Ragnar first (Ghaz didn't fully die) not to upset Ork fans. It heavily undermines how threatening Ragnar is that he could actually lose to Ghaz. Pathetic."

Ghaz isn't the Beast yet. He's a large Ork Warboss/Warlord, and a terrifyingly cunning one, but you know what's probably bigger and meaner? A Swarmlord. An Avatar of Khaine. A Great Daemon, or Daemon Primarch. Oh, these are all things that Space Marine heroes can/have killed. I agree that Space Marines (especially Wolves) need taking down a peg, but acting like this also wasn't favouritism for the Orks too misses the mark. Both Ragnar AND Ghaz had plot armour here, and they were both held to the expectation that they couldn't "just lose".

If Yarrick killed Ghaz, and didn't die in the effort, would that have made more sense? I don't think so.

That's interesting. . . in a pretty recent thread you seem to be arguing the opposite:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
. . . Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.

So like, which is it? Ghaz being nearly The Beast, and the grand architect of Armageddon, an event you recently argued was as important as The Great Rift? . . . or . . . Ghaz the "big Warboss" who just gets beheaded by a named Space Marine captain?

Heroic Space Marines can beat Orks, that's just the way it's always been.
People are underselling the pedigree of Ragnar's character.

Yeah, Orks job is to be killed by space marines, like all aliens. They are a third class faction, NPCs, like I keep saying.

Why do we pretend otherwise? This game is about Space Marines killing everyone else. It is a power fantasy game for Marine fans. The rest of us are only here to facillitate them.

 LunarSol wrote:
Primaris models are the best!
Primaris lore is the worst!

Well said!

They should have just done an upsize like they did between 2nd and 3rd.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Primaris models are the best!
Primaris lore is the worst!

Well said!

They should have just done an upsize like they did between 2nd and 3rd.

Agreed.

Well, the Intercessors look nice anyways.