Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

Just an example of a cool model being made for the guarantee-sell faction and then needing a rules and minor lore avenue for release. Money money money. *rubs thumb and middle and pointer fingers together* That’s cash, baby!

Besides that, I enjoy the model (could use a cowl, otherwise I can make piece with the head). I can enjoy a non-vehicle/mode-of-transport addition to the Reclusiam. A Chaplain in training that must prove himself by silently leading by example, swinging and fighting in time with the beat of the litany.

 Apple Peel wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

Just an example of a cool model being made for the guarantee-sell faction and then needing a rules and minor lore avenue for release. Money money money. *rubs thumb and middle and pointer fingers together* That’s cash, baby!

Besides that, I enjoy the model (could use a cowl, otherwise I can make piece with the head). I can enjoy a non-vehicle/mode-of-transport addition to the Reclusiam. A Chaplain in training that must prove himself by silently leading by example, swinging and fighting in time with the beat of the litany.

I think that is kind of the issue with stuff like this, Space marines got a lot of new minis to sell with some More coming. But releaseing a single model for a lot of factions would be really awesome, and both promote new investment and reinvestment into the factions themselves.
Why not probably making as much money in the short term, it keeps players in the game itself and shows that they are not forgotten without having to invest into a lot of kits all at once for GW.

Don't get me wrong, I've accepted that because most people play Space Marines GW is always going to shower far more attention on them than any other faction. It is what it is.

The bigger issue is that doing that leads to things like the judiciar: Space Marines getting given something extremely powerful that used to be a unique feature of a very few other factions, simply because they needed something to tack on to a new model, and they'd already given Space Marines most of the other special rules already.

There is no balance justification for Space Marines getting ASL. It's simply about needing a powerful rule to slap onto a new model. And that's really bad for the game.

I’ve been out of the game a bit, why the heck would you want to always strike last?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I’ve been out of the game a bit, why the heck would you want to always strike last?

He imposes it not suffers from it.

Games Workshop has never designed a faction or model with an idea of function over form. I guarantee you that when the judiciar was handed over to the rules team, the discussion on what rules he should get began and ended with "well what rules do space marines not already have?". And that was it. They have might have done a bare minimum of playtesting to make sure it didn't absolutely break the bank, but otherwise they just slapped some rules on the model and send it to the printers. This has always been the GW way.

 Eldarain wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I’ve been out of the game a bit, why the heck would you want to always strike last?

He imposes it not suffers from it.

Ah, glad to see I’m not that rules slowed. Lol

Thanks, Eldarain!

it's definatly a case of a cool model developed first.. that said from a design POV there's a few things at play here. First of all the Judicator fills a lore role of expanding the reclusium a little bit, which is kinda nice to have, as for the rules, GW's been trying to develop a "cool duelist" character for ages, the Judicator is just their latest kick at the can.

If that's what GW was trying to do, the judiciar is even worse, because its value is 100% in its ability to sit with a combat unit and make them unable to be charged. He's junk as a duelist, and his rules have nothing to do with being a duelist. You would never, ever want him to duel stuff individually, that would be a criminal waste of his rules.

I mean, they weren't even content to limit the ASL to things it's actually in combat with. You get to just point and slow from a cool 6" away.

I’m thinking they don’t understand how you can reliably get a character within 6” of a target enemy unit without haveing the character in with the unit in combat.

B.c they didn't have a fight first or fight last ability on a general unit and SM needs EVERY ABILITY on a general unit. B.c F everyone else and uniqueness.

40k has nothing unique anymore between armies, if you have it well SM gets it too.

They didnt, it's a horrid model and stupid execution.

If you want people to get excited about a box include all new models and/or make it cheap. Do both and you will sell out, do neither and sales will be poor. The economy of scale dictates higher profits with mass-production instead of producing 5 different boxes with the fifth the sales. Imagine GW adding a Whirlwind and a Terminator Captain to an Eradicator/whatever box, instant loss of profit.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

From Some directions, yes, from most directions No.

They've tried to do Lieutenants a few times. If a Lieutenant is a Captain in Training, a Judiciar is a Chaplain in Training. So it works well with further developing the path of advancement/fluff/IP etc. LT is to Captain as Epistolary is to Librarian as Judiciar is to Chaplain (or Master of Sanctity etc they've had multiple attempts at two levels of Chaplain) - and I'm not that impressed with the rules. They're nice and all but - strictly on the rules - I think I prefer the Litanies over the Tempormortis, and the Cap and Lt bubbles over both. Especially the new Bladeguard equipped versions. Give up what 6 inches of range on the cap, gain a few AND another shot on the LT, now both have a 2+/4++ if I read the FAQ correctly. Even Old Marines don't have a Terminator Lieutenant and these two are basically Terminator Primaris Captain/LT without the Gravis/Terminator Transportation issue.

Edit to Add: I think the marketing part wasn't as much about the Judiciar so much as it was about the Assault Intercessors. Assault has lagged way behind shooting in the Primaris line, the options they've tried have all fallen flat, so give this box a shiny new toy to make the Assault Intercessors look like the Assault Squad we've been waiting for/wanting. But it's not going to happen this time either. Without the jump pack mobility, people are still going to be disappointed. They would have been better off retrofitting Reivers who take chutes and ladder hooks to count as Jump Packs - either shoot the hook at the ground and Newton's law propels you up, or you shoot the high overhead gantry/tree limb, and the chute glides you down etc.

I think SM needed the Judiciar more than Eradicators or Outriders. I don't see many SM lists with dedicated CC units while there was already a ton of shooty units, even fast ones, before the new buggies and melta guys.

Last but not least the Judiciar is the only primaris model ever made that I actually like, so I can't consider him as something that wasn't needed

SM haven't needed anything for years.

I dislike the model and the rules. Feels to me that it does not belong to Space Marines and too "gamey" in design for lack of a better word.

I would like a Primaris Company Champion (on bike) without any additional rules much more. And I don't even need the model for it. Just allow it as an option and call one of the many Lieutenants a Company Champion model.

 Blackie wrote:
I think SM needed the Judiciar more than Eradicators or Outriders. I don't see many SM lists with dedicated CC units while there was already a ton of shooty units, even fast ones, before the new buggies and melta guys.

Last but not least the Judiciar is the only primaris model ever made that I actually like, so I can't consider him as something that wasn't needed

They needed the Outriders especially if old marines are going away. Assault Marines got boned by the changes to Pistol+CCW, Charging, etc. in 8th. It was a while ago, but I did the math on Assault Marines (and thus OldMarine bikers) in CC vs shooty Intercessors and they lost 3 days later - Vanguard with power weapons of course would spank Intercessors. Even the Assault Intercessors were less necessary than the Outriders. We already had Reivers, with the same or better mobility, while the Outriders have very similar to Jump movement stats. That's where the Primaris line is lagging behind. They don't/didn't have an independently (not requiring a transport) fast moving CC unit. The benefit to the Judiciar isn't really the tempormortis, its the sword that works out just shy of a power fist. Especially if they're capped at 3, I agree they didn't need the Eradicators. Eliminators with Lasfusil, or MM Speeders/Attack Bikes, or less so the new ATV thing already had that niche.

It's marine. Gw needs it to get lots of profits.　so answer to op questioe: profit

It looks cool?

 Insectum7 wrote:
SM haven't needed anything for years.

What he said.


At this point, I don't know why GW even keeps up the pretence of faction identity. There exist Space Marine heroes, Chaos villains, and Xeno NPCs. That is all.

 vipoid wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
SM haven't needed anything for years.

What he said.


At this point, I don't know why GW even keeps up the pretence of faction identity. There exist Space Marine heroes, Chaos villains, and Xeno NPCs. That is all.

Youre right, they should just release a "xenos npc" book for single player and lump all xenos models together by base size with 1 profile.


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BrianDavion wrote:
it's definatly a case of a cool model developed first.. that said from a design POV there's a few things at play here. First of all the Judicator fills a lore role of expanding the reclusium a little bit, which is kinda nice to have, as for the rules, GW's been trying to develop a "cool duelist" character for ages, the Judicator is just their latest kick at the can.

This seems most likely.

Tbf i don't know why everyone keeps harping on him beeing cool...
The Face Mask Looks Bad and the sword is just weaksauce compared to the rl inspired Versions.

Agreed its a model first situation most likely.

Someone in the studio did some cool concept art, and a lead went "Nice! We should make that!". Then the rules team came up with something to fit the model.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Tbf i don't know why everyone keeps harping on him beeing cool...
The Face Mask Looks Bad and the sword is just weaksauce compared to the rl inspired Versions.

The concept is cool. The facemask is dumb. Of course I hate any model I can't put in a full helmet. Slap a skull mask or a reiver face instead and it might not be so bad. The Sword isn't bad, I like the recessed writing, doing that on purity seals and banners/etc would be awesome. He should probably be an HQ not an Elite. The one Phobos one Gravis rimmed shoulderpad is freaking weird. More fluff is required, I assume the hourglass is the Tempormortis Device, so a story with one of these guys activating the device by letting it drop from arm's length having the spike hit then penetrate the ground or get driven into the bottom of the device as an activator switch while the Judiciar puts the second hand on the giant Relic blade to start swinging would have helped too. Without that kind of investment, I'm really just making jokes about if the Grey Knights and Monty Python had babies....

The only part of him I don't like is the skull-mask. But if you fix that part he looks great.

This guy's conversion makes him look pretty much perfect imo.

https://i.redd.it/z8b81p4pz5d51.jpg

Looking at the hourglass, I understand why they tried to give him some sort of slow-mo special rule- but I feel like a more elegant rule would have been a charge penalty. "Enemies 6'' or further away that are declaring a charge suffer a -3 penalty (to a minimum distance of 1'') to their charge result" would have given a concrete bonus without being overbearing.

I shall continue to field my company champion, thanks.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The only part of him I don't like is the skull-mask. But if you fix that part he looks great.



https://i.redd.it/z8b81p4pz5d51.jpg

I forgot about the Chaplain. They keep making new Cassius models (800 year old Ultramarine Chaplain whose face is falling off the steel skull underneath) without actually pulling the trigger to make him Primaris.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The only part of him I don't like is the skull-mask. But if you fix that part he looks great.

This guy's conversion makes him look pretty much perfect imo.

https://i.redd.it/z8b81p4pz5d51.jpg

Looking at the hourglass, I understand why they tried to give him some sort of slow-mo special rule- but I feel like a more elegant rule would have been a charge penalty. "Enemies 6'' or further away that are declaring a charge suffer a -3 penalty (to a minimum distance of 1'') to their charge result" would have given a concrete bonus without being overbearing.

I think the hourglass is bad as well, it’s held on a chain and seems too magic artefact for marines that are not psychic. At least with the head swap it’s a better looking model. And I have seen a few with a not derp sword as well that just improves the model as a whole.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine

Let's be blunt here... this IS absolutely a whine. It's just a valid one that no-one's going to disagree with you on.

I don't see the point to it. As others have said, the rules don't really fit the Marines theme to me, and everything about the model - the armour/robe-off combo, the odd helmet, the sword - whether you like the model or not, it doesn't fit with anything in the rest of the range.
It also wasn't even necessary in the Indomitus box - it already had a bad-ass looking Captain, Chaplain and Ancient. I still want that Chaplain even though it's not a "new" unit, and the box also has entirely new units outside the characters, so it's not like the "must have new stuff" argument applies here.

I actually ended up not getting the box because I actively didn't want that Judiciar (or the Bladeguard vets) - were it just the Necron half, I'd have sold that off, but selling off that much just makes it an easier prospect for me to wait until the other units are available separately.

Apple fox wrote:
I think the hourglass is bad as well, it’s held on a chain and seems too magic artefact for marines that are not psychic. At least with the head swap it’s a better looking model. And I have seen a few with a not derp sword as well that just improves the model as a whole.

I might be missing something here, but what's derp about the sword?

The square "tip".

It's intentionally evocative of executioner's swords.

Yeah, the sword looking like a very heavy, and tipless blade is actually pretty accurate for an executioner's sword.

Huh.

Obviously makes sense to use an executioners blade in the M41 in the thick of melee with impossible alien beings and power armour.

Clearly an excellent artistic choice by GW. Very inkeeping with the rest of the Imperiums weapons.

If it's the power field doing the damage, then it doesn't matter what the blade looks like.

What "makes sense" in this context is ultimately personal preference.

 Dysartes wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
I think the hourglass is bad as well, it’s held on a chain and seems too magic artefact for marines that are not psychic. At least with the head swap it’s a better looking model. And I have seen a few with a not derp sword as well that just improves the model as a whole.

I might be missing something here, but what's derp about the sword?

Honestly I think it just looks bad, and being that the model is ceremonial. And a lot of flat blades come from ceremonial combat and specific martial arts it looks with the rest of the peace mis designed.
The blade itself could be used in combat, but one handed and with a unwieldy weapon it all comes off as a whole very meh. When they would be far more effective with a normal length blade, as well as a point in combat being effective for a number of reasons. Probably leads to a lot of deaths.

 harlokin wrote:
If it's the power field doing the damage, then it doesn't matter what the blade looks like.

What "makes sense" in this context is ultimately personal preference.

Sure. Totally doesn't matter.

Not like the Power Axe and the Power Sword, and the Power Maul don't have different rules to strongly suggest the shape of the weapon matters extensively or anything.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
If it's the power field doing the damage, then it doesn't matter what the blade looks like.

What "makes sense" in this context is ultimately personal preference.

Sure. Totally doesn't matter.

Not like the Power Axe and the Power Sword, and the Power Maul don't have different rules to strongly suggest the shape of the weapon matters extensively or anything.

If that's the case where is the point on the Power Axe that would make it less effective? Not having a point on a sword has some advantages in real life, and maybe has some here too.

 harlokin wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
If it's the power field doing the damage, then it doesn't matter what the blade looks like.

What "makes sense" in this context is ultimately personal preference.

Sure. Totally doesn't matter.

Not like the Power Axe and the Power Sword, and the Power Maul don't have different rules to strongly suggest the shape of the weapon matters extensively or anything.

If that's the case where is the point on the Power Axe that would make it less effective? Not having a point on a sword has some advantages in real life, and maybe has some here too.

That you would probably need to ask GW, but for the lack of a point on a sword is mostly lost once you make it too big. As they do sharpen the ends of flat blades as well. But there is a reason that they are considered unusual and often ceremonial.

 Super Ready wrote:

I don't see the point to it. As others have said, the rules don't really fit the Marines theme to me, and everything about the model - the armour/robe-off combo, the odd helmet, the sword - whether you like the model or not, it doesn't fit with anything in the rest of the range.

Yeah this is a core issue with the model.

Even if you justify it as being an expansion on the Chaplain side of Marines, it looks absolutely nothing like Chaplains.

The idea of the Hourglass too is just... really bizarre as well. I'm not against an Imperial unit carrying around something like that, but with that sort of power it has to be some incredibly advanced DAoT relic or some advanced Xenotech artifact that has been re-purposed. Which is fine.... but what, does EVERY single Marine chapter have one or possible more of these things in their possession? This is the sort of thing I'd imagine Grey Knights having access too, or maybe an Inquisitor and their retinue, not thousands of different Space Marine chapters.

I also don't understand how it fits in with the overall idea/theme of the character either. I guess there's a Executioner time-is-running-out-for-you type deal going on but that's a little spurious.

 Blackie wrote:
I think SM needed the Judiciar more than Eradicators or Outriders. I don't see many SM lists with dedicated CC units while there was already a ton of shooty units, even fast ones, before the new buggies and melta guys.

Last but not least the Judiciar is the only primaris model ever made that I actually like, so I can't consider him as something that wasn't needed

When given the choice between shooting and melee, in 40k shooting is pretty much always better. Marine armies are not lacking CC units because they don't have them, but because their shooting units are so much better. (And after Marine 2.0 and shock assault even a basic marine is as good as many CC expert units).

And the Judiciar doesn't change that. Bladeguard vets, who are also hilariously undercosted, do much more for adding CC units to marines. Not because they are so good, which they are, but because your getting a 2+/4++ 3w model for 35 points, that happens to have a good CC weapon by accident.

Space Marines have lost any kind of flavor, the whole faction feels like a bunch of stronger than usual models put together so the fanboys can build whatever army they want consistant of armored dudes.
I understand that an "easy to play" army has to exist in a game like this, but even in the case it should have strenghts and weaknesses, but the later ones are so diluted nowadays that it makes no sense.
The Judiciar is just another nail in the coffin that is game balance. How long is going to take so we can see a Salamander Captain riding some kind of xenos Dragon or a completely transformed Wulfen monstrosity in Terminator armor? They seem to don't care for anything that is not sales.
I hope that this madness stops with the new release of the SM codex and all the PA and Supplement nonsense comes to an end so we can have a "normal" edition.

I mean they both sound like fab model ideas, Denegaar! Would not be against.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I mean they both sound like fab model ideas, Denegaar! Would not be against.

Looking at how they make stuff lately, it sure will happen! Even a filthy Xenos player like me would buy a Terminator Werewolf with a backpack and enhanced claws. They could put a melta rifle mounted in its back for extra cheese.

It is a nice model to make captins, librarians, chaplains and champions of different kinds.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:Huh.

Obviously makes sense to use an executioners blade in the M41 in the thick of melee with impossible alien beings and power armour.

Clearly an excellent artistic choice by GW. Very inkeeping with the rest of the Imperiums weapons.

If this is sarcastic, can I also mention how it obviously makes sense that the Imperium puts so much emphasis on melee weaponry and bayonet charges against impossible alien beings and ultra-thick power armour?

If we're going to look down on "this weapon is clearly ceremonial and would be useless in combat!", surely the same extends to literally every melee weapon wielded, because why use melee when you have such excellent technology as meltaguns and plasma?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
If it's the power field doing the damage, then it doesn't matter what the blade looks like.

What "makes sense" in this context is ultimately personal preference.

Sure. Totally doesn't matter.

Not like the Power Axe and the Power Sword, and the Power Maul don't have different rules to strongly suggest the shape of the weapon matters extensively or anything.

In prior editions, they didn't. Hell, we have sword looking weapons (like this Executioner blade!) that have better stats than axes and mauls - if it's all in the shape, why are those swords better?

Which is why I don't use the rules to justify fluff.

I don't care about the shape of the weapon, I care about the fact that Space Marines got dolled out an extremely powerful trick that used to be basically restricted to relics and stratagems for a very small selections of factions - without the need for a relic slot or CP usage - for no discernible reason besides "we made the model, now we gotta give it some sick rules."

They did not NEED it, they just wanted to give marines a new "hero" and this is one of the few useful special rules they didn't have. Who knows, maybe after this round of primaris we get primaris flyers.

They will replace the entire firstborn line with primaris and won't stop the focus on SMs until they have done so.

In the meantime, armies like custodes are awfully unfinished, and others have a good range of miniatures but no rules to help them (eldar?). Though, to be fair, they are pretty ancient.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
If it's the power field doing the damage, then it doesn't matter what the blade looks like.

What "makes sense" in this context is ultimately personal preference.

Sure. Totally doesn't matter.

Not like the Power Axe and the Power Sword, and the Power Maul don't have different rules to strongly suggest the shape of the weapon matters extensively or anything.

Executionner swords were basically sword shaped axes historically.

Why the Judiciar model? Because he is cool. You can nitpick lots of details, but in the end, he just looks cool.

Why is he chaplain in training instead of a primaris company champion? You got me.

Why does he have have a device that allows him cause an enemy unit to ASL? Because he's holding a friggin' hourglass and an executioner's sword. What else is the darn thing going to do that makes any sense at all? It slows down the enemy so that he can give out some of the Emperor's justice. See how it all comes together in one package?

 Oaka wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

I might be missing something here, but what's derp about the sword?

Spoiler:

inscription on the blade: Wan Ich Das Schwert thue Auffheben - So Wünsche Ich Dem Sünder Das Ewige Leben "When this sword I do lift - I wish the sinner the eternal life as gift."

Both are examples of executioner swords circa Europe.


This has already been discussed fairly in depth. Yeah, it's a weird design for a combat unit...but the Judiciar isn't just a combat position. And most executioners don't get an hourglass that can stop time within a locality.

Yeah, the background explaining where the time-manipulating hourglasses came from should be interesting.

I wonder if this means the Chapter Serfs can't boil eggs any more...

a_typical_hero wrote:
I dislike the model and the rules. Feels to me that it does not belong to Space Marines and too "gamey" in design for lack of a better word.

I would like a Primaris Company Champion (on bike) without any additional rules much more. And I don't even need the model for it. Just allow it as an option and call one of the many Lieutenants a Company Champion model.

This. They should have just made it a primaris champ or lt, maybe with a different wargear piece. (Though I do like the model). (Writing as a marine player) marines are already so spoiled for elite and hq characters/specialists, they really didn't need another design for those slots.

 Dysartes wrote:
Yeah, the background explaining where the time-manipulating hourglasses came from should be interesting.

I wonder if this means the Chapter Serfs can't boil eggs any more...

Don't the imperial inquisition and squats use temporal equipment and weapons? Looks like the tech heretic Cawl started cloning equipment he had no right to clone.

Y'all are bonkers. A model with zero mobility himself is going to be thrown via transport or Strat with all his other supported units charging. Know what that means?

You were already fighting first to begin with. No prolonged combat happens anymore. It's a pretty meh ability overall.

Oh and the model is rad. Anyone making complaints is hypocritical if they aren't doing the same to any of the Chaplain models.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Y'all are bonkers. A model with zero mobility himself is going to be thrown via transport or Strat with all his other supported units charging. Know what that means?

You were already fighting first to begin with. No prolonged combat happens anymore. It's a pretty meh ability overall.

Oh and the model is rad. Anyone making complaints is hypocritical if they aren't doing the same to any of the Chaplain models.

The point about charging is fair, but I really REALLY like Chaplain models, and I hate the Judiciar model.
The facehelmet thing isn't exactly close, and the robe being half-off is silly. I don't see any reason for having one pauldron - but then I don't like the pauldron-less look of Incursors and the like anyway. The hourglass I can give or take, but I understand other players' gripes with it.

Basically every gripe I (and others) have with the model is not reflected with Chaplains. You've just picked up on the fact they both come in black, which isn't the issue.

Karol wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Yeah, the background explaining where the time-manipulating hourglasses came from should be interesting.

I wonder if this means the Chapter Serfs can't boil eggs any more...

Don't the imperial inquisition and squats use temporal equipment and weapons? Looks like the tech heretic Cawl started cloning equipment he had no right to clone.

...not as a general rule, no.

There's a limited amount of stasis weaponry kicking about - I think Lukas the Trickster has a stasis bomb wired to go off if he is killed, for example - but they're neither common, nor selective. If this was a "normal" stasis weapon, everyone would be striking last, not just the enemy.

I think a primaris champion rules would had been more fitting. Even the model, just remove the hourglass and give it a shield

I converted mine with the Bladeguard Ancient helm, looks so badass. I like the model because he is like a Chaplain, but different. Its always good to have more choices no matter what army you play, the ability is decent. Like others have pointed out he will be charging out of a transport so only time its useful is if a strong character charges him and the squad he is with.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Y'all are bonkers. A model with zero mobility himself is going to be thrown via transport or Strat with all his other supported units charging. Know what that means?

You were already fighting first to begin with. No prolonged combat happens anymore. It's a pretty meh ability overall.

Oh and the model is rad. Anyone making complaints is hypocritical if they aren't doing the same to any of the Chaplain models.

Chaplain looks great, Judicar looks dumb. Judicar looks too try-hard.

CSM got the master of executions, so GW figured that the SM needed one as well, and that it needed to be better.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
CSM got the master of executions, so GW figured that the SM needed one as well, and that it needed to be better.

oof. That one hurts.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
CSM got the master of executions, so GW figured that the SM needed one as well, and that it needed to be better.

oof. That one hurts.

I mean, he isn't wrong, but csm atleast got the tools to somewhat Make the moe work...
Somewhat beeing a really wonky description..

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
CSM got the master of executions, so GW figured that the SM needed one as well, and that it needed to be better.

I prefer the Chaos one actually, more attacks. STR 8, re rolls against characters, and 6" heroic intervention vs characters.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Y'all are bonkers. A model with zero mobility himself is going to be thrown via transport or Strat with all his other supported units charging. Know what that means?

You were already fighting first to begin with. No prolonged combat happens anymore. It's a pretty meh ability overall.

Oh and the model is rad. Anyone making complaints is hypocritical if they aren't doing the same to any of the Chaplain models.

Chaplain looks great, Judicar looks dumb. Judicar looks too try-hard.

How is this:

ANYMORE try hard than this:

I got a spoiler for you: it's not. Everyone already knows you have a hateboner for Primaris and can't look at them for a proper evaluation of the model.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
I converted mine with the Bladeguard Ancient helm, looks so badass. I like the model because he is like a Chaplain, but different. Its always good to have more choices no matter what army you play, the ability is decent. Like others have pointed out he will be charging out of a transport so only time its useful is if a strong character charges him and the squad he is with.

More options is generally good.

But do Space Marines have a need for that? Especially compared to, say, Dark Eldar?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
I converted mine with the Bladeguard Ancient helm, looks so badass. I like the model because he is like a Chaplain, but different. Its always good to have more choices no matter what army you play, the ability is decent. Like others have pointed out he will be charging out of a transport so only time its useful is if a strong character charges him and the squad he is with.

More options is generally good.

But do Space Marines have a need for that? Especially compared to, say, Dark Eldar?

Yes, but the reason for it is unique to GW. GW has to sell kits to make money to keep the lights on, and the only way to do that is to keep doing what they are doing. The nice thing is, they are refreshing kits from Dark Eldar and other races, we just have to wait and see if we can get NEW kits for Dark Eldar and other armies for 9th edition after more Primaris releases. Hopefully that is the case and we get more options.

Apple fox wrote:
Honestly I think it just looks bad, and being that the model is ceremonial. And a lot of flat blades come from ceremonial combat and specific martial arts it looks with the rest of the peace mis designed.
The blade itself could be used in combat, but one handed and with a unwieldy weapon it all comes off as a whole very meh. When they would be far more effective with a normal length blade, as well as a point in combat being effective for a number of reasons. Probably leads to a lot of deaths.

It always amuses me how completely arbitrary people are with these types of complaints. Imagine complaining about muh realism and practicality in a setting where it's standard practice to show up to a firefight with chainsaws and guns that have a reputation for exploding and vaporizing half a fireteam.

Complaining about the practicality of using that Blade one handed is asinine in a universe where, not only do Power Fists exist, Power Fists are regularly outfitted with a Chainsaw.

Breton wrote:


They needed the Outriders especially if old marines are going away. Assault Marines got boned by the changes to Pistol+CCW, Charging, etc. in 8th.

Well, SM didn't need any of the primaris either to be honest. And nothing is going away anytime soon.

I like all the space marine players being all like,

'Well it's good to have more choice. I wanted more chaplin like characters for my force, adds real variety.'


Have you even _Seen_ the amount of choice in your codex?

Great, choice is nice. Maybe some other factions would like some choices too?

Karol wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Yeah, the background explaining where the time-manipulating hourglasses came from should be interesting.

I wonder if this means the Chapter Serfs can't boil eggs any more...

Don't the imperial inquisition and squats use temporal equipment and weapons? Looks like the tech heretic Cawl started cloning equipment he had no right to clone.

Guilliman spent something like 10,000 years in a stasis field, and the Dark Angels drop literarily literal stasis bombs.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
Honestly I think it just looks bad, and being that the model is ceremonial. And a lot of flat blades come from ceremonial combat and specific martial arts it looks with the rest of the peace mis designed.
The blade itself could be used in combat, but one handed and with a unwieldy weapon it all comes off as a whole very meh. When they would be far more effective with a normal length blade, as well as a point in combat being effective for a number of reasons. Probably leads to a lot of deaths.

It always amuses me how completely arbitrary people are with these types of complaints. Imagine complaining about muh realism and practicality in a setting where it's standard practice to show up to a firefight with chainsaws and guns that have a reputation for exploding and vaporizing half a fireteam.

I don’t particularly like all those elements as presented ether, and I like settings to have grounding within there own narrative. It shouldn’t be hard for people to understand that, but it seems so at times.
As GW moves away from parody and a grimdark look at themes, into a desire for a more serious setting they are going to have to accept people looking at the setting this way.

So, the Judicar carrying a semi-impractical melee weapon (even though it existed in our real life world, in some capacity) should be right at home in a narrative full of people carrying massively impractical melee weapons.

If we're talking about "grounding within their own narrative", that is.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, the Judicar carrying a semi-impractical melee weapon (even though it existed in our real life world, in some capacity) should be right at home in a narrative full of people carrying massively impractical melee weapons.

If we're talking about "grounding within their own narrative", that is.

You realise that is the reason I said I think it just looks bad, and I gave reasons why I thought it did on top of just looking bad.

But, with space marines it’s a constant of mah fantasy until something comes up and suddenly it’s all realism and justification.

I'll never get people who complain about things not being "realistic" or "practical" in 40k. there aren't many examples of practical items in the entire Imperium

Why they needed him? Cool sword.

Why his rules weren't based on, say, the Executioner from CSM and are instead the way way better rules that they are?

You know why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple fox wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, the Judicar carrying a semi-impractical melee weapon (even though it existed in our real life world, in some capacity) should be right at home in a narrative full of people carrying massively impractical melee weapons.

If we're talking about "grounding within their own narrative", that is.

You realise that is the reason I said I think it just looks bad, and I gave reasons why I thought it did on top of just looking bad.

But, with space marines it’s a constant of mah fantasy until something comes up and suddenly it’s all realism and justification.

I mean I'm on the marine players side here but I know their opinions on """"""""""""""""""realism""""""""""""""""" when it comes to...other stuff. Other stuff like organ transplants in the year M41 having to obey imaginary rules that organ transplants don't have to obey today in M3.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
I converted mine with the Bladeguard Ancient helm, looks so badass. I like the model because he is like a Chaplain, but different. Its always good to have more choices no matter what army you play, the ability is decent. Like others have pointed out he will be charging out of a transport so only time its useful is if a strong character charges him and the squad he is with.

More options is generally good.

But do Space Marines have a need for that? Especially compared to, say, Dark Eldar?

Yes, but the reason for it is unique to GW. GW has to sell kits to make money to keep the lights on, and the only way to do that is to keep doing what they are doing.

Where does this logic come from?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Y'all are bonkers. A model with zero mobility himself is going to be thrown via transport or Strat with all his other supported units charging. Know what that means?

You were already fighting first to begin with. No prolonged combat happens anymore. It's a pretty meh ability overall.

Oh and the model is rad. Anyone making complaints is hypocritical if they aren't doing the same to any of the Chaplain models.

Chaplain looks great, Judicar looks dumb. Judicar looks too try-hard.

How is this:

Spoiler:

ANYMORE try hard than this:

Spoiler:

I got a spoiler for you: it's not. Everyone already knows you have a hateboner for Primaris and can't look at them for a proper evaluation of the model.

Well for one the Chaplain doesn't look like a 16 y/o Camgirl trying too hard with the off-the-shoulder look.

I don't know the lore behind the Justicar, I just dislike the model. The sword specifically. The point beats the edge, yet he's got an executioner's sword not a fighting sword. The off the shoulder coat is also a little idiotic.

the_scotsman wrote:
Why they needed him? Cool sword.

Why his rules weren't based on, say, the Executioner from CSM and are instead the way way better rules that they are?

You know why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple fox wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, the Judicar carrying a semi-impractical melee weapon (even though it existed in our real life world, in some capacity) should be right at home in a narrative full of people carrying massively impractical melee weapons.

If we're talking about "grounding within their own narrative", that is.

You realise that is the reason I said I think it just looks bad, and I gave reasons why I thought it did on top of just looking bad.

But, with space marines it’s a constant of mah fantasy until something comes up and suddenly it’s all realism and justification.

I mean I'm on the marine players side here but I know their opinions on """"""""""""""""""realism""""""""""""""""" when it comes to...other stuff. Other stuff like organ transplants in the year M41 having to obey imaginary rules that organ transplants don't have to obey today in M3.

Need a thumbs Up emote, my English is not the best but I think you understand me here. I think it’s just not a very good looking model, and a lot of that is based in the way some of it’s design is done.
Considering how many conversions I have seen, and how positive the changes are with just simple head and weapon swaps I don’t think I am really that different.

Kayback wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Y'all are bonkers. A model with zero mobility himself is going to be thrown via transport or Strat with all his other supported units charging. Know what that means?

You were already fighting first to begin with. No prolonged combat happens anymore. It's a pretty meh ability overall.

Oh and the model is rad. Anyone making complaints is hypocritical if they aren't doing the same to any of the Chaplain models.

Chaplain looks great, Judicar looks dumb. Judicar looks too try-hard.

How is this:

Spoiler:

ANYMORE try hard than this:

Spoiler:

I got a spoiler for you: it's not. Everyone already knows you have a hateboner for Primaris and can't look at them for a proper evaluation of the model.

Well for one the Chaplain doesn't look like a 16 y/o Camgirl trying too hard with the off-the-shoulder look.

I don't know the lore behind the Justicar, I just dislike the model. The sword specifically. The point beats the edge, yet he's got an executioner's sword not a fighting sword. The off the shoulder coat is also a little idiotic.

If cam girls were wearing a bunch of armor you'd have a point. However, robes to begin with are already stupid on Power Armor yet nobody complains about that. Also you seem to forget that executioner's Sword vs "fighting sword" is a silly complaint in the universe where chainsaws are magically used without getting clogged or Genestealer Cults are regularly using Power Pickaxes to fight or Crowe's "fighting sword" does not even have a single point of AP but Chainswords now do.

At which point choosing to suspend disbelief for one but not the other is pretty darn silly. The model is fine, maybe even great. However the absolutely irrational hatred of Primaris seeks to take over. If it were a Manlet Marine you'd be all over it, guaranteed.

Apple fox wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Why they needed him? Cool sword.

Why his rules weren't based on, say, the Executioner from CSM and are instead the way way better rules that they are?

You know why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple fox wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, the Judicar carrying a semi-impractical melee weapon (even though it existed in our real life world, in some capacity) should be right at home in a narrative full of people carrying massively impractical melee weapons.

If we're talking about "grounding within their own narrative", that is.

You realise that is the reason I said I think it just looks bad, and I gave reasons why I thought it did on top of just looking bad.

But, with space marines it’s a constant of mah fantasy until something comes up and suddenly it’s all realism and justification.

I mean I'm on the marine players side here but I know their opinions on """"""""""""""""""realism""""""""""""""""" when it comes to...other stuff. Other stuff like organ transplants in the year M41 having to obey imaginary rules that organ transplants don't have to obey today in M3.

Need a thumbs Up emote, my English is not the best but I think you understand me here. I think it’s just not a very good looking model, and a lot of that is based in the way some of it’s design is done.
Considering how many conversions I have seen, and how positive the changes are with just simple head and weapon swaps I don’t think I am really that different.

it's fine. It's got some things I just have to laugh at: An Hourglass, an item you use by turning it end-over-end, being suspended by the top with a chain....what does he do when the sand falls to the bottom, just, awkwardly kind of try to yo-yo it up into his one free hand so he can hold it the other way round? Also, the fact he's wearing a Skull Mask isn't immediately obvious because of the bandanna so it just looks like he's got voldemort face...

but like, come on. A realism complaint about his huge fething sword? In Warhammer goddamn forty thousand?

Absolutely, its a pretty silly complaint.

Like, fair enough if you just don't like the aesthetics. Each to their own, its a valid opinion even if I don't agree.

But if you seriously have an issue with it on the grounds of its practicality as a weapon!? Yeah, there are so many much bigger fish to fry in this setting.

Overall I think they knocked this model out of the park, its awesome.

Apple fox wrote:You realise that is the reason I said I think it just looks bad, and I gave reasons why I thought it did on top of just looking bad.

It's totally fine to think it looks bad just aesthetically, but then you starting going all in with "but that's ceremonial and wouldn't be effective in combat", which doesn't make sense considering all the chainswords and other impractical weapons in display.

But, with space marines it’s a constant of mah fantasy until something comes up and suddenly it’s all realism and justification.

Nah, we're just saying that swords like that *did* exist, which makes your appeals to "it's impractical" a little odd.
Obviously, using that sword in combat *is* impractical - but so is using a chainsword. And, if someone disliked a chainsword on aesthetics, they're welcome to - but if they started saying about how it's totally impractical, then I'd simply remind them that it's fantasy.

the_scotsman wrote:I mean I'm on the marine players side here but I know their opinions on """"""""""""""""""realism""""""""""""""""" when it comes to...other stuff. Other stuff like organ transplants in the year M41 having to obey imaginary rules that organ transplants don't have to obey today in M3.

Yeah, especially when a lot of those "opinions" on organ and biological """""realism"""" are used as a way to marginalise people in the hobby.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, yeah, I have some aesthetic issues with the model. Really not keen on the head personally, but I have tonnes of spare heads for just this purpose, so if/when I pick up my own, I'll be just replacing the head.

But the sword, off the shoulder robes, and mismatched pauldrons? I like them.

Slayer-Fan123 791563 10914312 wrote:
If cam girls were wearing a bunch of armor you'd have a point. However, robes to begin with are already stupid on Power Armor yet nobody complains about that.

Italian men at arms or knights wore surcoat or jupon, over their full plate harnass. Same with german knights, and a large number of french knights. The only ones that didn't were men at arms and knights from british isles, which was considered uncultural and barbaric by everyone.

Karol wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 791563 10914312 wrote:
If cam girls were wearing a bunch of armor you'd have a point. However, robes to begin with are already stupid on Power Armor yet nobody complains about that.

Italian men at arms or knights wore surcoat or jupon, over their full plate harnass. Same with german knights, and a large number of french knights. The only ones that didn't were men at arms and knights from british isles, which was considered uncultural and barbaric by everyone.

And yet it's still stupid

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Y'all are bonkers. A model with zero mobility himself is going to be thrown via transport or Strat with all his other supported units charging. Know what that means?

You were already fighting first to begin with. No prolonged combat happens anymore. It's a pretty meh ability overall.

Oh and the model is rad. Anyone making complaints is hypocritical if they aren't doing the same to any of the Chaplain models.

Chaplain looks great, Judicar looks dumb. Judicar looks too try-hard.

How is this:

Spoiler:

ANYMORE try hard than this:

Spoiler:

I got a spoiler for you: it's not. Everyone already knows you have a hateboner for Primaris and can't look at them for a proper evaluation of the model.

Never said I liked that Chaplain model. I was comparing to the Chaplain that came in the set the Judicar came in. So there

It was considered something both fashionable and important to knight/justing tournament culture.

And it was especialy worn by those few and rare women who actualy doned armour, and made their trade in the martial profession. As it made them even less recognisable as not men.

Woring an unadorned armour, was popular on the isles, but everyone one considered that to be barbaric and not something a cultural man would do.

Saying it is stupid, is like saying that maces and warhammers are stupid as weapons in an armoured warriors setting.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How is this:

Spoiler:

ANYMORE try hard than this:

Spoiler:

I got a spoiler for you: it's not. Everyone already knows you have a hateboner for Primaris and can't look at them for a proper evaluation of the model.

Chaplain's got a skull mask and eagle-staff as a symbol of his station, and the rest is the usual gothic accoutrements of 40K.

The Judiciar has a skull mask, a bandana over said skull mask (?), a leather cloak over power armor (?), leather gloves over power armor (???), specifically an executioner's sword, and a big ol' hourglass in case I couldn't piece together the symbolism.

The Chaplain feels to me like the classic religious gaudiness of Marines with very specific marks of office to set him apart.

The Judiciar feels like a committee wrote up a list of things that look edgy/dark/brooding and a list of things that scream 'executioner', and then put them all on the same model. The gloves-over-armor thing is silly enough on its own, let alone in the context of the whole model.

I actually like some of the Primaris designs but the Judiciar is definitely one of the worst IMO.

Just compare Primaris Social Distancing Chaplain to Salamanders Chaplain Xavier, from back in the day. Chaplain Xavier is carrying Vulkan's Sigil, a venerated relic of the chapter. Sure, it looks like a hammer, but he doesn't actually hammer anyone with it. Even though it's shaped like a hammer. No, it's a holy icon that has boosts the morale of nearby Salamanders. If he needs to whack some enemies, he's got his crozius for that. Wouldn't want to break Vulkan's Sigil, a venerated relic of the chapter.

Now take Social Distancing Chaplain. He is also carrying what looks like a relic. But this one is shaped like an hourglass. So obviously it literally stops time with space magic. Because nowadays every single little bit and bob needs to be interpreted literally.

 catbarf wrote:
leather gloves over power armor (???)
[...]
The gloves-over-armor thing is silly enough on its own

Sisters of Battle envy lol.

 catbarf wrote:


The Chaplain feels to me like the classic religious gaudiness of Marines with very specific marks of office to set him apart.

To me a chaplain is like Bishop Otto of Bamberg. A religious leader who also liked to put on an armour, mount a horse and start whaloping people on the head with his war mace. He also had a skull faced enclosed helmet, or at least he worse one at the battle of Pyrzyce as chronicals say, with which he struck fear in the pagan Pomeranians. A warrior,noble man, bishop, chancelor to emperor Henry the 4th and also a saint of catholic church.

The judicar on the other hand is more like knightly orders chaplains, who were both warriors and responsible for keeping the convenant laws in some orders. Like for example in the Knights of st Andrew.

 catbarf wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How is this:

Spoiler:

ANYMORE try hard than this:

Spoiler:

I got a spoiler for you: it's not. Everyone already knows you have a hateboner for Primaris and can't look at them for a proper evaluation of the model.

Chaplain's got a skull mask and eagle-staff as a symbol of his station, and the rest is the usual gothic accoutrements of 40K.

The Judiciar has a skull mask, a bandana over said skull mask (?), a leather cloak over power armor (?), leather gloves over power armor (???), specifically an executioner's sword, and a big ol' hourglass in case I couldn't piece together the symbolism.

The Chaplain feels to me like the classic religious gaudiness of Marines with very specific marks of office to set him apart.

The Judiciar feels like a committee wrote up a list of things that look edgy/dark/brooding and a list of things that scream 'executioner', and then put them all on the same model. The gloves-over-armor thing is silly enough on its own, let alone in the context of the whole model.

I actually like some of the Primaris designs but the Judiciar is definitely one of the worst IMO.

The gloves over armour is really common for both sisters and chaos. I'm sure over the years some loyalist marines have had them as well.

You would wear gloves over metal armour, at least in historical settings. If you were operating in cold or rainy weather, to get better grip on a pole ax or other pole weapon.

I know the gloves-over-armor thing has cropped up before- never been a fan, personally- but wearing what looks like a bandana over the skull mask is borderline farcical. What's next, Incursors with balaclavas over their helmets?

Karol wrote:
You would wear gloves over metal armour, at least in historical settings. If you were operating in cold or rainy weather, to get better grip on a
pole ax or other pole weapon.

Or like.

I don't know.

Maybe a big sword.

Because every marine army needed armor of russ. Duh!

I agree it is silly. I do include one in my army though to escort my 2 units of BG to the target. I wouldn't worry to much - if a marine army is choosing melee elements over shooting ones they are helping you win.

 catbarf wrote:
I know the gloves-over-armor thing has cropped up before- never been a fan, personally- but wearing what looks like a bandana over the skull mask is borderline farcical. What's next, Incursors with balaclavas over their helmets?

Seems less silly than ANYONE wearing a hyperadvanced super duper space armor suit and NOT a helmet for said suit.

Karol wrote:
You would wear gloves over metal armour, at least in historical settings. If you were operating in cold or rainy weather, to get better grip on a pole ax or other pole weapon.

Gauntlets for plate armor were most commonly leather gloves with articulated, riveted plates attached to the exterior surfaces; you need a gripping surface regardless of the weather. I've never heard of nor seen forearm-length gloves worn over plate gauntlets. I would like to see a source on that.

Edit: Mail isn't different, either. The two most common designs of mail gauntlet are either a mail glove with leather sewn into the inward surfaces, or a leather glove with mail sewn into the outward surfaces. This is basic battlefield equipment we're talking about; you don't omit design features as basic as 'being able to grip your weapon'.

And man, if the grip surfaces on Marine armor are so bad that wearing animal hide over top provides a substantial improvement in handling, it makes you wonder how all the non-gloved Marines were getting along with bolters, swords, and heavy weapons in the first place.

 catbarf wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How is this:

Spoiler:

ANYMORE try hard than this:

Spoiler:

I got a spoiler for you: it's not. Everyone already knows you have a hateboner for Primaris and can't look at them for a proper evaluation of the model.

Chaplain's got a skull mask and eagle-staff as a symbol of his station, and the rest is the usual gothic accoutrements of 40K.

The Judiciar has a skull mask, a bandana over said skull mask (?), a leather cloak over power armor (?), leather gloves over power armor (???), specifically an executioner's sword, and a big ol' hourglass in case I couldn't piece together the symbolism.

The Chaplain feels to me like the classic religious gaudiness of Marines with very specific marks of office to set him apart.

The Judiciar feels like a committee wrote up a list of things that look edgy/dark/brooding and a list of things that scream 'executioner', and then put them all on the same model. The gloves-over-armor thing is silly enough on its own, let alone in the context of the whole model.

I actually like some of the Primaris designs but the Judiciar is definitely one of the worst IMO.

Judicar is fething ugly. Agreed.

If this incredibly advanced power armour cannot protect against the cold or stop the wearer from gripping weapons properly, then the Imperium's technological backwardness is more pronounced than I thought.

I dunno how the Space Wolves managed all these years without gloves. :^)

 Bosskelot wrote:
If this incredibly advanced power armour cannot protect against the cold or stop the wearer from gripping weapons properly, then the Imperium's technological backwardness is more pronounced than I thought.

I dunno how the Space Wolves managed all these years without gloves. :^)

It is not about the cold. It is about stuff sliping from your hands. Take a hoe, wet your hands and try swining it for 15min, which is the avarge time of a melee engagment, bad things will happen. And on the battle field you are in a formation, you really don't want your hand to slip and wack a friend on the head with a pole ax. Now I know that XIIIth century is not the same as the 40th milenium, but I take this as licencia poetica. Just like sanguinior doesn't really need wings on his jump pack to fly. He does need them, because he is suppose to be an Angel. A chaplain or Judicar is a scifi medival knight, and there for gloves on power armour are okey. From what I understand about what SW are based on, they would not wear gloves. Sailors don't wear gloves, because you REALLY don't want to have leather impregnated with salt from sea water on your hands for hours. It would be like having sand paper on your hands. They should have more leather masks and nasal protection on their helmets, if they were suppose to be space vikinings.

Karol wrote:
Now I know that XIIIth century is not the same as the 40th milenium, but I take this as licencia poetica. (...) A chaplain or Judicar is a scifi medival knight, and there for gloves on power armour are okey.

Here's a 13th century knight.

Here's another.

Here's a 14th century counterpart.

Notice how all three have leather insets on the inner surfaces of their gloves, despite the different designs. Forearm-length leather gloves over armor is not a typical part of medieval knightly armor. I don't think it has a historical basis.

the_scotsman wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Why they needed him? Cool sword.

Why his rules weren't based on, say, the Executioner from CSM and are instead the way way better rules that they are?

You know why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple fox wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, the Judicar carrying a semi-impractical melee weapon (even though it existed in our real life world, in some capacity) should be right at home in a narrative full of people carrying massively impractical melee weapons.

If we're talking about "grounding within their own narrative", that is.

You realise that is the reason I said I think it just looks bad, and I gave reasons why I thought it did on top of just looking bad.

But, with space marines it’s a constant of mah fantasy until something comes up and suddenly it’s all realism and justification.

I mean I'm on the marine players side here but I know their opinions on """"""""""""""""""realism""""""""""""""""" when it comes to...other stuff. Other stuff like organ transplants in the year M41 having to obey imaginary rules that organ transplants don't have to obey today in M3.

Need a thumbs Up emote, my English is not the best but I think you understand me here. I think it’s just not a very good looking model, and a lot of that is based in the way some of it’s design is done.
Considering how many conversions I have seen, and how positive the changes are with just simple head and weapon swaps I don’t think I am really that different.

it's fine. It's got some things I just have to laugh at: An Hourglass, an item you use by turning it end-over-end, being suspended by the top with a chain....what does he do when the sand falls to the bottom, just, awkwardly kind of try to yo-yo it up into his one free hand so he can hold it the other way round? Also, the fact he's wearing a Skull Mask isn't immediately obvious because of the bandanna so it just looks like he's got voldemort face...

but like, come on. A realism complaint about his huge fething sword? In Warhammer goddamn forty thousand?

I happen to prefer when they take a more grounded and realistic Aproach to how space marines and other creatures move in universe. Even in a crazy setting you can have that as part of your consistency. Even with demons and monsters.

It’s the exact same complaint as with the hourglass , the way it functions and to the design of the model to yo yo it up, is a realism complaint.

A guillotine was also used for executions. Should one of those be considered a viable weapon now?

There is a large difference between realistic and believable. Is it realistic to use a chainsaw in combat? Not really but it's believable in universe with the correct technobabble. What's essentially a slightly sharpened plank sword? No. Even given the strength enhancing of a suit of power Armour an executioner's sword is not designed for fighting. It's literally giving yourself a disadvantage for what reason?

The model would be 100% improved with a pointy sword.

The Chaplains Crozius, besides being a symbol of office is a play on the Cleric's avoidance of bladed weapons which takes its reference from the (incorrect) interpretation of Bishop Ordo of Bayeux.

Sure the technobabble for the Justicar may allow the Flux-Capacitor to let him "execute" the opponents? Sure ok.

I still dislike the aesthetics of the model. Like said elsewhere the simple fact so many modifications improve it vastly shows it isn't just "Primaris Hate".

 catbarf wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How is this:

Spoiler:

ANYMORE try hard than this:

Spoiler:

I got a spoiler for you: it's not. Everyone already knows you have a hateboner for Primaris and can't look at them for a proper evaluation of the model.

Chaplain's got a skull mask and eagle-staff as a symbol of his station, and the rest is the usual gothic accoutrements of 40K.

The Judiciar has a skull mask, a bandana over said skull mask (?), a leather cloak over power armor (?), leather gloves over power armor (???), specifically an executioner's sword, and a big ol' hourglass in case I couldn't piece together the symbolism.

The Chaplain feels to me like the classic religious gaudiness of Marines with very specific marks of office to set him apart.

The Judiciar feels like a committee wrote up a list of things that look edgy/dark/brooding and a list of things that scream 'executioner', and then put them all on the same model. The gloves-over-armor thing is silly enough on its own, let alone in the context of the whole model.

I actually like some of the Primaris designs but the Judiciar is definitely one of the worst IMO.

I mean, which of those things aren't part of an Executioner? That IS the motif. Also the hourglass is really no different than any other model holding trinkets in the game. This priest dude is a REALLY recent example, who really won'tbe preaching when he's whacking people:

And of course there's several older examples of models holding stuff that you might be concerned about regarding interfering with their combat ability:

At which point were any of these complained about, especially the chalice the Sanguine Priest holds, unless we all assume they fight one handed at all times LOL
Oh and sisters look like they basically fight with gloves that are just the same color as the armor:

So at least complain about all those things to be consistent.

Theres nothing conceptually wrong with a space marine having a cloack and leather gloves over his armour and with a big ass sword.

I mean, thats the definition of this dude, the probably best librarian (With bonus points for ninja) model ever made:




I built my judicar with a hood head of the deathwing knights and without the hourglass and it becomes substantially better. It is not a ugly model, but the head is horrible and the hour glass isn't much better. But the rest is absolutely fine.

I mean:

 Galas wrote:
I built my judicar with a hood head of the deathwing knights and without the hourglass and it becomes substantially better. It is not a ugly model, but the head is horrible and the hour glass isn't much better. But the rest is absolutely fine.

I mean:

Spoiler:

Frankly, that's not a Judiciar - that's a Primaris Emperor's Champion.

 Galas wrote:
Theres nothing conceptually wrong with a space marine having a cloack and leather gloves over his armour and with a big ass sword.

I mean, thats the definition of this dude, the probably best librarian (With bonus points for ninja) model ever made:

Spoiler:

That's possibly my least favorite Librarian.

I think is my favourite librarian because is the less-librarian librarian they have made.

I really dislike librarians.

To the OP my reply is simple - they needed the Judicar as all Space Marine players up to that point didn’t have one. Come time to complete your army, that will likely be a £25 box with just a tiny piece of plastic in it. Business wise, it’s golden especially when edition 9.5 comes around and they buff him to become an auto-include in order to boost sales.

Sumilidon wrote:
To the OP my reply is simple - they needed the Judicar as all Space Marine players up to that point didn’t have one. Come time to complete your army, that will likely be a £25 box with just a tiny piece of plastic in it. Business wise, it’s golden especially when edition 9.5 comes around and they buff him to become an auto-include in order to boost sales.

"They" being GW, I assume. It's a valid answer - but doesn't really mean the Marines needed one as a faction, of course.

Galas, nice work on that Champion ...just couldn't squeeze another pauldron on there though, huh...?

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

You've committed the sin of assuming that GW designs models based on rules and needs. They don't. They design cool looking minis and then figure out fluff for it based on the miniature design, and then figure out the rules for the mini from there. Thats why, for the most part, new model releases are often useless or unhelpful and rarely what a faction actually needs.

chaos0xomega wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

You've committed the sin of assuming that GW designs models based on rules and needs. They don't. They design cool looking minis and then figure out fluff for it based on the miniature design, and then figure out the rules for the mini from there. Thats why, for the most part, new model releases are often useless or unhelpful and rarely what a faction actually needs.

While I don't have the source to hand, so I appreciate if you don't believe me, but the above poster is correct. GW have offically stated it in the past.

The model design team just design stuff in a vacum, they pay literally zero attention to the 'Game', they're just off in their bubble doing things, and when they've designed a thing, it goes to the rules team who then assign it some rules based on the design and drop it in the game.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I built my judicar with a hood head of the deathwing knights and without the hourglass and it becomes substantially better. It is not a ugly model, but the head is horrible and the hour glass isn't much better. But the rest is absolutely fine.

I mean:

Spoiler:

Frankly, that's not a Judiciar - that's a Primaris Emperor's Champion.

Yeah id buy this...
And I dont even play marines

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

While I don't have the source to hand, so I appreciate if you don't believe me, but the above poster is correct. GW have offically stated it in the past.

The model design team just design stuff in a vacum, they pay literally zero attention to the 'Game', they're just off in their bubble doing things, and when they've designed a thing, it goes to the rules team who then assign it some rules based on the design and drop it in the game.

You could always just go and watch the interview with Jes Goodwin about the AdMech reinforcements. Goodwin, who designed the Primaris range, definitely does do this...but there's relatively recently others who have been trying to make sure that there's a reason for things now. The new AdMech flyer for example had all of its weapons in the back until someone suggested that was strange for playing purposes.

A note that gets made is that the 'role' for something is starting to play more into the designs that the studio is working on. However sometimes something is just considered 'cool' and that outweighs a need for an item.

I don't think it's just Jes, to be fair, or even a small part of the company. It's right there in their mission statement, which mentions that they're a miniatures company and makes no mention of being a games company. That trend is clear if you look through all of their annual reports over the years, miniatures are mentioned again and again, and rule editions aren't even given a nod.

Heck, take this example from the 2015 report which calls out the complete side-step of Fantasy to Age of Sigmar:
"In July 2015, we relaunched Warhammer Fantasy to broad acclaim ‘Warhammer: Age of Sigmar’. We are so proud of this new range of
miniatures that we have commissioned an additional statue at our HQ to complement our Space Marine"
...wuh?! Ok there were a lot of new miniatures, but surely Age of Sigmar is the new game?!

(I'm aware that annual reports are typically full of a lot of flowery buzzword language, creative accounting and hidden numbers - so I'm aware the nature of that specific quote is to be taken with a massive pinch of salt, "broad acclaim" huh? But it's just too perfect an example of the miniatures-centric language.)

Just another example of someone designing a model first and asking monkeys to add rules after.

It makes a successful business, but not a successful game.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Just another example of someone designing a model first and asking monkeys to add rules after.

It makes a successful business, but not a successful game.

Indeed

I mean you could just use him as a Champion or even a Captain if you wanted. Models aren't always stuck with the rules they're designed with.

Just add a helmet, a shoulder pad on his right shoulder and make some adjustments to the left arm if you want and bam, he's a Primaris Emperor's champion.

Lots of GW models need a bit of fixing. You just need to see what it could be.

For example:

Those Khorne Skulltakers/wrathmongers are actually decent models when you cut all the garbage mutations off of them and add shoulder pads and proper helmets.

The Heldrake and Maulerfiend are bad on their own. But kit bash them together into one Dragon and they look awesome.

 catbarf wrote:

Notice how all three have leather insets on the inner surfaces of their gloves, despite the different designs. Forearm-length leather gloves over armor is not a typical part of medieval knightly armor. I don't think it has a historical basis.

yes, those are western euro knight, fighting in western europe or in the middle east. If you had a look at the art or archeological finds for Fratres militiae Christi de Livonia, or even the art in Museums in Malborg for Teutonic knights, you will find out out that knights not only wore gloves there, but also furs and what ever could isolate them from harsh winters. And this is not even considering stuff like eastern common wealth or various Rus duke doms knights who would not were plated gloves at all. Mostly because it made using bows on horseback practicaly impossible.

I guess this is actually a pretty good illustration of why space marines "needed" the judiciar - someone makes a thread about what a bad thing it is from a rules design point of view, 75% of the posts are arguing about whether it's a cool looking model or not. GW could probably just quote this thread and drop a mic as to why they do things the way they do.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I guess this is actually a pretty good illustration of why space marines "needed" the judiciar - someone makes a thread about what a bad thing it is from a rules design point of view, 75% of the posts are arguing about whether it's a cool looking model or not. GW could probably just quote this thread and drop a mic as to why they do things the way they do.

pretty much, I find people forget that aestetics are relative, you might like something I hate and vice versa.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I guess this is actually a pretty good illustration of why space marines "needed" the judiciar - someone makes a thread about what a bad thing it is from a rules design point of view, 75% of the posts are arguing about whether it's a cool looking model or not. GW could probably just quote this thread and drop a mic as to why they do things the way they do.

As you try to not point out in your OP, the point of this thread is a hollow whine and ultimately GW did make him and he does exist so whether he is needed or not is pointless. All that is left is subjective opinion on how the model looks.

"Let's make him weird so people argue about his sword instead of the fact that we gave SMs yet another unnecessary tool".

Sold!

It's very simple, GW bases their sales model around these 3 facts that the customers use:

1. Can't go wrong with Space Marines! No matter what model I pick up today, it will eventually find a way to be #1 someday. If the new model is for lets say... a Mordian Iron Guard special character, 90% of the playerbase will go: it's a Guard unit, I don't have Guard, the next 9% will go: I'd like it but I don't collect Mordians, and the last 1% will actually buy it.

2. Everyone else has Space Marines of some sort, I can't be left out! I'll just grab one to ensure that I am keeping up with the times...

3. Non-Space Marine armies are rare individually - oh sure there's lots of Guard players, collectively, but how many Tempestus or Mordian or Tallarn players go to a typical LGS? How many Space Marine players go to the same LGS? Sometimes these additional armies are discontinued - like the Guard regiments...

Me? I just buy all the 3rd Edition Inquisitorial Stormtroopers I can lay my grubby mitts on...

 Slayer6 wrote:
...

Me? I just buy all the 3rd Edition Inquisitorial Stormtroopers I can lay my grubby mitts on...

Are those the dudes with tons of grenades on their back?

Kayback wrote:

 Slayer6 wrote:
...

Me? I just buy all the 3rd Edition Inquisitorial Stormtroopers I can lay my grubby mitts on...

Are those the dudes with tons of grenades on their back?

These:

chaos0xomega wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

You've committed the sin of assuming that GW designs models based on rules and needs. They don't. They design cool looking minis and then figure out fluff for it based on the miniature design, and then figure out the rules for the mini from there. Thats why, for the most part, new model releases are often useless or unhelpful and rarely what a faction actually needs.

...except that also, every new model is given tournament-tier rules on purpose to break the game and drive sales.

Do I have that right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slayer6 wrote:
It's very simple, GW bases their sales model around these 3 facts that the customers use:

1. Can't go wrong with Space Marines! No matter what model I pick up today, it will eventually find a way to be #1 someday. If the new model is for lets say... a Mordian Iron Guard special character, 90% of the playerbase will go: it's a Guard unit, I don't have Guard, the next 9% will go: I'd like it but I don't collect Mordians, and the last 1% will actually buy it.

Say remember that time Games Workshop announced they'd be selling people blind boxes at a 50% discount, completely transparently in an attempt to clear out stock from the warehouse that didn't sell as well as they'd hoped and it was like 90% Space Marines, 50% the primaris space marines special characters they came out with 14 of during the supplements?

the_scotsman wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

You've committed the sin of assuming that GW designs models based on rules and needs. They don't. They design cool looking minis and then figure out fluff for it based on the miniature design, and then figure out the rules for the mini from there. Thats why, for the most part, new model releases are often useless or unhelpful and rarely what a faction actually needs.

...except that also, every new model is given tournament-tier rules on purpose to break the game and drive sales.

Do I have that right?

yeah I know I just roll over the tourny scene with my Reivers!

BrianDavion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

You've committed the sin of assuming that GW designs models based on rules and needs. They don't. They design cool looking minis and then figure out fluff for it based on the miniature design, and then figure out the rules for the mini from there. Thats why, for the most part, new model releases are often useless or unhelpful and rarely what a faction actually needs.

...except that also, every new model is given tournament-tier rules on purpose to break the game and drive sales.

Do I have that right?

yeah I know I just roll over the tourny scene with my Reivers!

They're not from the new release however, those bladeguard ancients on the other hand. Definite auto 100 points.

Dudeface wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

You've committed the sin of assuming that GW designs models based on rules and needs. They don't. They design cool looking minis and then figure out fluff for it based on the miniature design, and then figure out the rules for the mini from there. Thats why, for the most part, new model releases are often useless or unhelpful and rarely what a faction actually needs.

...except that also, every new model is given tournament-tier rules on purpose to break the game and drive sales.

Do I have that right?

yeah I know I just roll over the tourny scene with my Reivers!

They're not from the new release however, those bladeguard ancients on the other hand. Definite auto 100 points.

Mhm, mhm, and those new necron models that were fully 50% of the starter set, those were....um....we'll just ignore those, I guess.

GW really wanted to sell those pyrovores back in the day, just look at those awesome rules they got.

Or Primaris when they first came out.
Or any number of units that GW has released over the decades that were bad when they came out...

Does it occasionally happen? possibly.
But most of the time GW is just incompetent.

 Ordana wrote:
GW really wanted to sell those pyrovores back in the day, just look at those awesome rules they got.

Or Primaris when they first came out.
Or any number of units that GW has released over the decades that were bad when they came out...

Does it occasionally happen? possibly.
But most of the time GW is just incompetent.

It really is about 50/50 odds

Karol wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Notice how all three have leather insets on the inner surfaces of their gloves, despite the different designs. Forearm-length leather gloves over armor is not a typical part of medieval knightly armor. I don't think it has a historical basis.

yes, those are western euro knight, fighting in western europe or in the middle east. If you had a look at the art or archeological finds for Fratres militiae Christi de Livonia, or even the art in Museums in Malborg for Teutonic knights, you will find out out that knights not only wore gloves there, but also furs and what ever could isolate them from harsh winters. And this is not even considering stuff like eastern common wealth or various Rus duke doms knights who would not were plated gloves at all. Mostly because it made using bows on horseback practicaly impossible.

Two of those images I posted were Teutonic knights. I can't find any visual reference for the Livonian Brothers of the Sword having any such equipment. Post a pic.

Karol wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Notice how all three have leather insets on the inner surfaces of their gloves, despite the different designs. Forearm-length leather gloves over armor is not a typical part of medieval knightly armor. I don't think it has a historical basis.

yes, those are western euro knight, fighting in western europe or in the middle east. If you had a look at the art or archeological finds for Fratres militiae Christi de Livonia, or even the art in Museums in Malborg for Teutonic knights, you will find out out that knights not only wore gloves there, but also furs and what ever could isolate them from harsh winters. And this is not even considering stuff like eastern common wealth or various Rus duke doms knights who would not were plated gloves at all. Mostly because it made using bows on horseback practicaly impossible.

Just to be clear (since this is the context of the discussion), are you saying that wearing plated gloves would make firing a bow from horseback impossible, yet wearing leather gloves over plated gloves would work just fine?

yukishiro1 wrote:
I guess this is actually a pretty good illustration of why space marines "needed" the judiciar - someone makes a thread about what a bad thing it is from a rules design point of view, 75% of the posts are arguing about whether it's a cool looking model or not. GW could probably just quote this thread and drop a mic as to why they do things the way they do.

It really isn't bad from a rules design point of view. In fact, you won't using the ability in 90% of your games. Think on it:
1. The dude requires you to use a Transport or Strat just to move him anywhere. AKA he's not speedy.
2. Therefore he's around the same speed as anything else that will be charging that turn. That means you're other dudes are already going to fight first.
3. Prolonged combats are not a thing. Nobody cares about silly "oh my squad will stay in combat because I'm pretending they're honorable!!!1!" garbage.
That means you don't actually use his ability for the most part! So if anything, he could use a buff on his ability.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I guess this is actually a pretty good illustration of why space marines "needed" the judiciar - someone makes a thread about what a bad thing it is from a rules design point of view, 75% of the posts are arguing about whether it's a cool looking model or not. GW could probably just quote this thread and drop a mic as to why they do things the way they do.

It really isn't bad from a rules design point of view. In fact, you won't using the ability in 90% of your games. Think on it:
1. The dude requires you to use a Transport or Strat just to move him anywhere. AKA he's not speedy.
2. Therefore he's around the same speed as anything else that will be charging that turn. That means you're other dudes are already going to fight first.
3. Prolonged combats are not a thing. Nobody cares about silly "oh my squad will stay in combat because I'm pretending they're honorable!!!1!" garbage.
That means you don't actually use his ability for the most part! So if anything, he could use a buff on his ability.

Why would you need a prolonged combat to use a guy whose ability is "you fight last"?

The Judicar is for the exact thing the plague marine guy is for: You put him near your shooty stationary gunline unit of 10 intercessors, your ork opponent "da jumps" his 30-block of boyz at you, charges, and the Judicar goes "Boop, my buddies here now get to punch you 32 times plus my Heroic Intervention attacks before you get to do anything, lololol we are models that outshoot fire warriors but also do this."

He's basically just a "no melee alpha strikerino" model. Which isn't super useful in this "only marines, only shooting" meta but if it were a different meta with a lot of melee alpha strike, he'd be bonkers good.

He's just not FOR what he's supposed to be for, i.e. going out and dueling enemy characters. He's just yet another piece to go with the new default Space Marine playstyle: "Tau, but dumber, and less interactive."

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I guess this is actually a pretty good illustration of why space marines "needed" the judiciar - someone makes a thread about what a bad thing it is from a rules design point of view, 75% of the posts are arguing about whether it's a cool looking model or not. GW could probably just quote this thread and drop a mic as to why they do things the way they do.

It really isn't bad from a rules design point of view. In fact, you won't using the ability in 90% of your games. Think on it:
1. The dude requires you to use a Transport or Strat just to move him anywhere. AKA he's not speedy.
2. Therefore he's around the same speed as anything else that will be charging that turn. That means you're other dudes are already going to fight first.
3. Prolonged combats are not a thing. Nobody cares about silly "oh my squad will stay in combat because I'm pretending they're honorable!!!1!" garbage.
That means you don't actually use his ability for the most part! So if anything, he could use a buff on his ability.

As the_scotsman succinctly pointed out, it's an 'I win' button for Marine gunlines against melee alpha strikers. You can't out-shoot them when they have some of the best shooting for the points, you can't out-attrition them when they have high durability for the cost, and now you can't out-melee them because they hit you first. It's just frustrating to play against because there is no counterplay, and it doesn't match what the Judiciar is supposed to be doing in the lore.

You know what would be fluffy and fitting? Giving him bonuses to singling out enemy characters, maybe reimplementing the old challenge rule where if the target refuses to fight him, they have to sit out in combat. Make him the guy that aggressively goes forward to challenge the enemy leaders and duel them one-on-one.

Instead he's a defensive buffer for gunlines who sits back and swings his comically oversized sand timer to make the enemy fight slow.

Please correct me, but I thought charging models always strike first and in case you have the situation were you both have a "you strike first / you strike last" modifier, the player who's turn it is get to pick the first unit to fight with? (Alternating afterwards)

a_typical_hero wrote:
and in case you have the situation were you both have a "you strike first / you strike last" modifier, the player who's turn it is get to pick the first unit to fight with? (Alternating afterwards)

It reversed in 9th Ed, which is what made these abilities actually useful. After chargers are resolved, if it's my turn, you pick the first unit to fight- so since chargers lose their charging first-strike bonus, you get to pick whatever got charged and actually fight first.

 catbarf wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
and in case you have the situation were you both have a "you strike first / you strike last" modifier, the player who's turn it is get to pick the first unit to fight with? (Alternating afterwards)

It reversed in 9th Ed, which is what made these abilities actually useful. After chargers are resolved, if it's my turn, you pick the first unit to fight- so since chargers lose their charging first-strike bonus, you get to pick whatever got charged and actually fight first.

I take it you're referring to Rare Rules, page 361? I'm not sure whether it affects charging, specifically. The wording goes, "If a unit is under the effects of both a rule that always lets it fight first in the Fight phase, and a rule that says it cannot be selected to fight until after all other units have done so, it instead fights as if neither rule is affecting it". (Emphasis mine.)
If you include charging in that, then you'd be correct, the opponent chooses which unit to fight with first so one unit gets to go before the chargers, but that's still not the same as fighting last if we're talking a multiple unit combat (and given the Judiciar is a character, it's quite likely).

However, I can see the argument that charging isn't a rule that always allows you to fight first. Partly because the word "always" isn't in the charging rules, and partly because that wording in Rare Rules doesn't specifically call out charging, whereas the paragraphs above it do.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Please correct me, but I thought charging models always strike first and in case you have the situation were you both have a "you strike first / you strike last" modifier, the player who's turn it is get to pick the first unit to fight with? (Alternating afterwards)

"You strike last" abilities mean LAST. after EVERYONE else has fought, including models that did not charge this turn. They don't just get shunted to "Tier 2" they go to the very back of the line.

"I strike first even if I didnt charge" abiltiies are less useful overall, because if it's your opponent's turn, he still gets to select the first unit and he can just select the unit that's going to be punching the one with the "i strike first' ability.

It's really only helpful if, like with Emperors Children and Slaanesh daemons, your WHOLE ARMY gets the "I strike first" ability.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I guess this is actually a pretty good illustration of why space marines "needed" the judiciar - someone makes a thread about what a bad thing it is from a rules design point of view, 75% of the posts are arguing about whether it's a cool looking model or not. GW could probably just quote this thread and drop a mic as to why they do things the way they do.

It really isn't bad from a rules design point of view. In fact, you won't using the ability in 90% of your games. Think on it:
1. The dude requires you to use a Transport or Strat just to move him anywhere. AKA he's not speedy.
2. Therefore he's around the same speed as anything else that will be charging that turn. That means you're other dudes are already going to fight first.
3. Prolonged combats are not a thing. Nobody cares about silly "oh my squad will stay in combat because I'm pretending they're honorable!!!1!" garbage.
That means you don't actually use his ability for the most part! So if anything, he could use a buff on his ability.

Uh you put him with your dudes on an objective and make those dudes unable to be charged because you hit before your enemy does. If you're using him offensively you're using him totally wrong. He perfectly complements the fact that even shooty space marine units can melee pretty well as well. Good luck charging aggressors if they hit you first, even intercessors are not something a lot of NPC factions want to charge if they're going to hit you first.

It's an incredibly powerful ability that can just totally shut down some lists, as any Drukhari or Space Wolf player knows.

The fact that a lot of Space Marine players don't appreciate how powerful a targeted 6" ASL is kinda says it all about how spoiled SM players are with powerful rules already.

Actually it says more about how much you overvalue melee in a game where you can literally just walk away from it.

the_scotsman wrote:
"I strike first even if I didnt charge" abiltiies are less useful overall, because if it's your opponent's turn, he still gets to select the first unit and he can just select the unit that's going to be punching the one with the "i strike first' ability.

That isn't how it works - the "fight first" ability still overrides the opponent getting to choose a normal-timing unit first. Check out bottom-right of page 361, Rare Rules.

This sounds like there's at least one thing which needs an FAQ (how charging interacts with this Rare Rules section), and possibly more than one - would that be a fair summary?

Absolutely. For once, I'm not even sure where I fall on the topic for HIWPI.

the_scotsman wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Note: this is absolutely not intended to be a whine - the camel's back was already broken, it's not like another thunder hammer blow really changes much - it's an observation on GW's design philosophy.

It's got to just be "we need another space marine character to put in this box," doesn't it? There's no possible balance justification, is there? Of all the factions in the game to give always fights last to, space marines were surely the faction that needed it least, as well as being the faction that already have more options than everybody else, especially when it comes to characters in the elite slot. The faction already had a virtually unused champion unit in the same slot already. If for whatever reason they really felt like Space Marines needed ASL, wouldn't it have been much more logical to put it on the champion as a relic option instead? Or the apoc or ancient if it had to be primaris...

Seems like such a clear example of the way GW is a model company first and a game company second, and of the general "Space Marine syndrome" whereby marines, sooner or later, get just about every trick every other faction can do, often for cheaper and better (in this case, without needing to use a relic slot and CP). Ironically, lots of people probably won't even take it, whereas it'd be an auto-take in almost any other faction, simply because Space Marines are already so spoiled with other options.

If anyone wonders why people get annoyed by the way GW handles space marines, this model is surely the perfect example of the issue: GW gives space marines powerful new rules simply as an excuse to release a new space marine kit.

You've committed the sin of assuming that GW designs models based on rules and needs. They don't. They design cool looking minis and then figure out fluff for it based on the miniature design, and then figure out the rules for the mini from there. Thats why, for the most part, new model releases are often useless or unhelpful and rarely what a faction actually needs.

...except that also, every new model is given tournament-tier rules on purpose to break the game and drive sales.

Do I have that right?

Thats a meme that people on the internet like to claim, but its not matched by reality (or, indeed, even by the realities of the way the rules team works, according to the rules team and members of the design studio themselves.

Same like the old "kit pricing is based on points cost" meme. Simply not true.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually it says more about how much you overvalue melee in a game where you can literally just walk away from it.

You can't walk away if you're dead, and you don't need to walk away if they're dead.

Charging is how you get onto objectives with someone already on them, and take that objective from them. It's still a key part of the game.

That said, if you don't think ASL is a powerful ability because you think melee is irrelevant I have no interest in trying to change your mind. ASL is a massively powerful ability in competitive 40k, whether you recognize it or not.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually it says more about how much you overvalue melee in a game where you can literally just walk away from it.

He values melee in a game where it is usually the only way an army has to flip an objective, which is to say it's the only way to deprive your opponent the objective in their following command phase while claiming that objective for yourself if you can hold it for their turn.

The judiciar's presence on an objective makes this more difficult.

You might want to learn how the game works before you post about it buddy.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually it says more about how much you overvalue melee in a game where you can literally just walk away from it.

He values melee in a game where it is usually the only way an army has to flip an objective, which is to say it's the only way to deprive your opponent the objective in their following command phase while claiming that objective for yourself if you can hold it for their turn.

The judiciar's presence on an objective makes this more difficult.

You might want to learn how the game works before you post about it buddy.

ok so I must be missing something here....... why can't you shoot a unit off an objective?

Of course you can, but that doesn't get you onto that objective. And you have to shoot the unit completely off, whereas if you charge it you just need to end up with more models than they have (unless they have ob-sec and you don't).

The ASL thing is incredibly strong because it makes it vastly more difficult to charge space marines off an objective. Even intercessors will smack a lot of NPC faction melee units (think GSC except abberrants, orks except meganobz, lots of eldar stuff) hard enough that they won't be able to smack back enough to win the objective.

It's absolutely game-changing against certain units, as anyone who plays SW or Drukhari knows.

BrianDavion wrote:
ok so I must be missing something here....... why can't you shoot a unit off an objective?

Shooting:
-You shoot the enemy off the objective.
-There is nobody on the objective.
-In the other player's turn they are free to move onto the objective, and then you will need to shoot them off again.
-If on any turn you fail to shoot everything off the objective, they score a point.
-You will only be able to score the objective if you can kill enough that there's nobody left to move onto it in one turn, and then you move onto it in the next turn, and then you'll score the following turn. If you're still there.

Melee:
-You charge the enemy on the objective and wipe them out.
-You now hold the objective.
-In the other player's turn they must now either shoot or melee you off the objective.
-If they fail to do that, you score a point.
-If the objective is contested or you control it, you can continue to reinforce with more troops.

Melee is the best tool in 9th for regaining the initiative if the enemy takes an objective. If you don't have any melee, it's very difficult to make a comeback if your opponent holds more objectives.

The Judiciar allows gunline troops to do an awful lot of damage before the enemy has a chance to fight- even Intercessors are a significant threat. The bigger problem is that it hard-counters fast glass hammer melee troops, which are normally decently effective against Marine gunlines. So you can't shoot the enemy off the objective and take it in the same turn, you can't charge with anything fragile because they'll die before they can swing, you can't get melee bruisers in before they get focus-fired by high-AP shooting. There's no real thought or tactics required, and it's extremely frustrating to play against.

It's a pretty textbook example of poor game design. It's not like space marines really had weaknesses to begin with, but to then give them what was previously an extremely rare, powerful ability that closes down the closest thing to a weakness the faction had is really pretty mind-boggling from a design point of view.

yukishiro1 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually it says more about how much you overvalue melee in a game where you can literally just walk away from it.

You can't walk away if you're dead, and you don't need to walk away if they're dead.

Charging is how you get onto objectives with someone already on them, and take that objective from them. It's still a key part of the game.

That said, if you don't think ASL is a powerful ability because you think melee is irrelevant I have no interest in trying to change your mind. ASL is a massively powerful ability in competitive 40k, whether you recognize it or not.

It really isn't. Hell, let's take your example of regular Ork Boyz using Da Jump to attack some Intercessors. Assuming a full squad, completely unharmed, gets charged (and probably won't use Overwatch), and the Orks don't get a bonus for said charge to strike first, that's still only 9 Orks dead. That's it. Even Possessed Bomb laughs at your example, as they only have 1.5 guys die!

Which melee bomb is afraid of this? Which competitive list is afraid of this?


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BrianDavion wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually it says more about how much you overvalue melee in a game where you can literally just walk away from it.

He values melee in a game where it is usually the only way an army has to flip an objective, which is to say it's the only way to deprive your opponent the objective in their following command phase while claiming that objective for yourself if you can hold it for their turn.

The judiciar's presence on an objective makes this more difficult.

You might want to learn how the game works before you post about it buddy.

ok so I must be missing something here....... why can't you shoot a unit off an objective?

Exactly. With all the movement shenanigans in the game, there's literally no reason that you can't just shoot and take the objective later.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's a pretty textbook example of poor game design. It's not like space marines really had weaknesses to begin with, but to then give them what was previously an extremely rare, powerful ability that closes down the closest thing to a weakness the faction had is really pretty mind-boggling from a design point of view.

Why can't they have the rare ability? It's still only present on that 1 character and still only has situational use to tag something charging that you have good odds of killing enough that it isn't a problem later.

What is the Judiciar taking away that's such an issue? It's only really going to show huge swings/perks when large intact units are charged by a singular fragile low head count melee unit that relies purely on killing you first. It's not like it's an unknown to your opponent, they know he's there and plan for it accordingly.

Dudeface wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's a pretty textbook example of poor game design. It's not like space marines really had weaknesses to begin with, but to then give them what was previously an extremely rare, powerful ability that closes down the closest thing to a weakness the faction had is really pretty mind-boggling from a design point of view.

Why can't they have the rare ability? It's still only present on that 1 character and still only has situational use to tag something charging that you have good odds of killing enough that it isn't a problem later.

What is the Judiciar taking away that's such an issue? It's only really going to show huge swings/perks when large intact units are charged by a singular fragile low head count melee unit that relies purely on killing you first. It's not like it's an unknown to your opponent, they know he's there and plan for it accordingly.

Nearly every unit that wants to kill space marines now relies on killing them before they kill you, thanks to how Shock Assault functions. Even units that, supposedly, pay for durability.

Take the example that GW's Warcom article seems to think GSC players should be using to kill space marines: Aberrants.

Aberrants have T4, W2, 5+sv, and 5+FNP and a rule that reduces all incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Evidently considering that they can carry identical melee weaponry to assault terminators and have the same offensive statline, Games Workshop apparently regards that FNP/-1D ability as 5 points less valuable than a Terminator's 2+/3++ and Shock Assault. Their body costs 22pts versus a glass cannon Acolyte costing 8pts, so they put a large fraction of their value into defense.

An acolyte squad equipped to kill MEQ (5-man, all picks) costs 160 points. If you charge it into a squad of 8 Intercessors (160pts) you stand to kill 3.8 intercessors with them (round up to 4 for convenience) - 80pts.

If those intercessors either interrupt you, or have the judicar nearby, even assuming the judicar doesn't get to attack you, those 8 intercessors kill 2 aberrants, 64pts of your stuff.

That's a unit that has nearly as much of its power budget in defenses as a TH/SS terminator, and being able to strike first makes equal points of a unit with a 30" range gun nearly as effective as it in melee combat.

It's a really REALLY good ability considering how much melee opponents currently need to thread the needle to deal with SM.

the_scotsman wrote:


If those intercessors either interrupt you, or have the judicar nearby, even assuming the judicar doesn't get to attack you, those 8 intercessors kill 2 aberrants, 64pts of your stuff.

That's a unit that has nearly as much of its power budget in defenses as a TH/SS terminator, and being able to strike first makes equal points of a unit with a 30" range gun nearly as effective as it in melee combat.

It's a really REALLY good ability considering how much melee opponents currently need to thread the needle to deal with SM.

I'm still listening to the arguments and haven't made up my mind yet, but you just compared 160 points of Aberrants to 160 points of Intercessors and some portion of the 80+ some odd points of Judiciar.

Breton wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


If those intercessors either interrupt you, or have the judicar nearby, even assuming the judicar doesn't get to attack you, those 8 intercessors kill 2 aberrants, 64pts of your stuff.

That's a unit that has nearly as much of its power budget in defenses as a TH/SS terminator, and being able to strike first makes equal points of a unit with a 30" range gun nearly as effective as it in melee combat.

It's a really REALLY good ability considering how much melee opponents currently need to thread the needle to deal with SM.

I'm still listening to the arguments and haven't made up my mind yet, but you just compared 160 points of Aberrants to 160 points of Intercessors and some portion of the 80+ some odd points of Judiciar.

Well, if you want I can count it as 2CP to interrupt, and we can talk about the choice between either a 65pt Clamavus or a 3CP Perfect Ambush stratagem to get the Aberrants in tere in the first place.

....Or would you prefer I account for the aberrants just charging in a vacuum, and we talk about the two other identical aberrant squads that didn't make the 28% charge chance?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. With all the movement shenanigans in the game, there's literally no reason that you can't just shoot and take the objective later.

So you want to wait a full turn before moving on the objective and claiming it for yourself? While giving your opponent a chance to re-capture the objective by simply moving onto it?
Or did you mean using stuff like "Fire and Fade" to get on the objective after gunning them down?

If its option B please tell me how i should do this if i play a non eldar army because in my eyes charging in is the only way to achieve this

the_scotsman wrote:


Well, if you want I can count it as 2CP to interrupt, and we can talk about the choice between either a 65pt Clamavus or a 3CP Perfect Ambush stratagem to get the Aberrants in tere in the first place.

....Or would you prefer I account for the aberrants just charging in a vacuum, and we talk about the two other identical aberrant squads that didn't make the 28% charge chance?

Whatever context applies. 160 vs 160 and some unknown portion of 80-90 is context. What happens to 160 vs 80 of Intercessors and the Judiciar fighting?

Breton wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Well, if you want I can count it as 2CP to interrupt, and we can talk about the choice between either a 65pt Clamavus or a 3CP Perfect Ambush stratagem to get the Aberrants in tere in the first place.

....Or would you prefer I account for the aberrants just charging in a vacuum, and we talk about the two other identical aberrant squads that didn't make the 28% charge chance?

Whatever context applies. 160 vs 160 and some unknown portion of 80-90 is context. What happens to 160 vs 80 of Intercessors and the Judiciar fighting?

Then they kill 3/5 of the aberrants instead of 2/5. 96pts. The two remaining aberrants cannot kill the judicar, so 160pts of them is not a viable answer to 80pts of judicar.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. With all the movement shenanigans in the game, there's literally no reason that you can't just shoot and take the objective later.

So you want to wait a full turn before moving on the objective and claiming it for yourself? While giving your opponent a chance to re-capture the objective by simply moving onto it?
Or did you mean using stuff like "Fire and Fade" to get on the objective after gunning them down?

If its option B please tell me how i should do this if i play a non eldar army because in my eyes charging in is the only way to achieve this

Shooting is super deadly and has only gotten deadlier with each new edition. Being able to kill more than a quarter of the opponent's army just with shooting means you're able to take the objective the next turn whilst your opponent lost some of their fighting capability. No risk for extreme reward. You really think that the -1 to hit abilities were complained about because people valued melee?
Compare that to melee where you have to jump through all these hoops and then, if you didn't kill the dudes, they just hop away and then you're closer to more death.

Re: 'what's afraid of this', I think Genestealers are a good example.

At 15ppm they're nearly as expensive as Intercessors, but die to a stiff breeze. Hitting first and hitting hard is their saving grace.

If a 20-strong blob (300pts) attacks a unit of 10 Intercessors, they average 17.78 wounds. They have around 50/50 odds of wiping the entire unit before it has a chance to strike back.

If those Intercessors have a Judiciar, they hit first, inflicting 6.67 wounds, killing a third of the Genestealers. The remainder strike back for 11.85 wounds, or killing just over half the Intercessor squad. The Judiciar contributes another two kills. The Genestealers are now just over half their starting strength, while the Intercessors are just below half.

In the Marine turn, if they can fall back just out of melee range, then the Genestealers are dead meat and will have failed to recoup even half of their cost.

In just that one turn, the Judiciar more than pays for itself.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. With all the movement shenanigans in the game, there's literally no reason that you can't just shoot and take the objective later.

So you want to wait a full turn before moving on the objective and claiming it for yourself? While giving your opponent a chance to re-capture the objective by simply moving onto it?
Or did you mean using stuff like "Fire and Fade" to get on the objective after gunning them down?

If its option B please tell me how i should do this if i play a non eldar army because in my eyes charging in is the only way to achieve this

Shooting is super deadly and has only gotten deadlier with each new edition. Being able to kill more than a quarter of the opponent's army just with shooting means you're able to take the objective the next turn whilst your opponent lost some of their fighting capability. No risk for extreme reward. You really think that the -1 to hit abilities were complained about because people valued melee?
Compare that to melee where you have to jump through all these hoops and then, if you didn't kill the dudes, they just hop away and then you're closer to more death.

its not about being able to shoot them off the objective. its about delaying your scoring ability by 2 turns for primaries. And from my experience with 9th so far, its a lot less killy than 8th.
I know its becoming almost a meme but tables really do benefit from more terrain.

And stop claiming that people don't value melee. Everyone i play has big melee part in their army, especially since 9th came out

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Shooting is super deadly and has only gotten deadlier with each new edition. Being able to kill more than a quarter of the opponent's army just with shooting means you're able to take the objective the next turn whilst your opponent lost some of their fighting capability. No risk for extreme reward.

Just curious, have you played much 9th?

Shooting the enemy off an objective on, say, turn 2 means you're scoring turn 4 at the very earliest. I've had games where I grabbed an objective early, then repeatedly got shot off, moved some new troops on, those got shot off, and so on. If they fail to shoot all my units off the objective, I score a point. If they succeed, they still don't get anything. It's one of the most common ways I've seen to get tabled and still win.

Melee has gone from an extreme underdog in 8th to being tactically, if not mechanically, potent in 9th. The increased focus on midboard objectives also means the amount of ground melee armies need to cover is significantly reduced. Furthermore, there are plenty of things in the game (Intercessors, for one) that are capable of moving close to an objective, shooting whatever's on it, and then charging to finish the job, both shooting and using melee (and thereby taking the objective) in one turn.

I have yet to see a shooting castle army with no melee capability win a game of 9th. It's an important phase now.

 catbarf wrote:
Re: 'what's afraid of this', I think Genestealers are a good example.

At 15ppm they're nearly as expensive as Intercessors, but die to a stiff breeze. Hitting first and hitting hard is their saving grace.

If a 20-strong blob (300pts) attacks a unit of 10 Intercessors, they average 17.78 wounds. They have around 50/50 odds of wiping the entire unit before it has a chance to strike back.

If those Intercessors have a Judiciar, they hit first, inflicting 6.67 wounds, killing a third of the Genestealers. The remainder strike back for 11.85 wounds, or killing just over half the Intercessor squad. The Judiciar contributes another two kills. The Genestealers are now just over half their starting strength, while the Intercessors are just below half.

In the Marine turn, if they can fall back just out of melee range, then the Genestealers are dead meat and will have failed to recoup even half of their cost.

In just that one turn, the Judiciar more than pays for itself.

This is the problem, if he was stood there you simply wouldn't make that charge, or at least not just that charge. It's a target saturation issue and it's something that we can't really assess in a thread like this because no mathammer approximation factors in multiple charges.

If your Judiciar has a choice of stopping the 20 stealers on the intercessors or the carnifex charging the dread etc. it makes it a more complicated situation with no right answer. The point of the thread is to argue "Marines shouldn't have that choice" but as Scotsman points out they do in the form of a 2cp strat anyway, the judiciar just give out a location based free strat in essence.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Shooting is super deadly and has only gotten deadlier with each new edition. Being able to kill more than a quarter of the opponent's army just with shooting means you're able to take the objective the next turn whilst your opponent lost some of their fighting capability. No risk for extreme reward. You really think that the -1 to hit abilities were complained about because people valued melee?
Compare that to melee where you have to jump through all these hoops and then, if you didn't kill the dudes, they just hop away and then you're closer to more death.

I don't know that shooting got deadlier so much as melee got well and truly blunted. Removing all the bonus attacks etc from melee was a radical change I think GW is still trying to figure to correct for. They gave the melee specific units +1A on their basic melee weapon, but I think they're still behind and catching up. You lost +1A for charging, +1 A for two weapons, and you lost Initiative which was a boost for CCW troops, that's a LOT of lost attacks plus a slight edge. Angels of Death/Shock Attack was aimed square at that major whoopsie. So now Space Marines get +1A when charging or when charged, and +1A for a chainsword etc... and they're right back where they were, maybe a little ahead. But many of the other factions are still boned.

No, it doesn't do that at all. It doesn't remotely do that. You can't interrupt until your opponent has had the chance to fight once. That you would say it is anywhere similar just shows how much you don't understand the utility of the ability.

As for why Space Marines shouldn't have got it - because they have pretty much everything else already. An army with zero weaknesses is terrible design. The only weakness space marines had prior to the judiciar is being charged by stuff that could kill them before they could fight back. The judiciar plugs that one tiny crack in the Space Marine arsenal.

 catbarf wrote:
Re: 'what's afraid of this', I think Genestealers are a good example.

At 15ppm they're nearly as expensive as Intercessors, but die to a stiff breeze. Hitting first and hitting hard is their saving grace.

If a 20-strong blob (300pts) attacks a unit of 10 Intercessors, they average 17.78 wounds. They have around 50/50 odds of wiping the entire unit before it has a chance to strike back.

If those Intercessors have a Judiciar, they hit first, inflicting 6.67 wounds, killing a third of the Genestealers. The remainder strike back for 11.85 wounds, or killing just over half the Intercessor squad. The Judiciar contributes another two kills. The Genestealers are now just over half their starting strength, while the Intercessors are just below half.

In the Marine turn, if they can fall back just out of melee range, then the Genestealers are dead meat and will have failed to recoup even half of their cost.

In just that one turn, the Judiciar more than pays for itself.

And now we get to the crux of 9th regarding large squads: did you consider splitting that squad in half?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Re: 'what's afraid of this', I think Genestealers are a good example.

At 15ppm they're nearly as expensive as Intercessors, but die to a stiff breeze. Hitting first and hitting hard is their saving grace.

If a 20-strong blob (300pts) attacks a unit of 10 Intercessors, they average 17.78 wounds. They have around 50/50 odds of wiping the entire unit before it has a chance to strike back.

If those Intercessors have a Judiciar, they hit first, inflicting 6.67 wounds, killing a third of the Genestealers. The remainder strike back for 11.85 wounds, or killing just over half the Intercessor squad. The Judiciar contributes another two kills. The Genestealers are now just over half their starting strength, while the Intercessors are just below half.

In the Marine turn, if they can fall back just out of melee range, then the Genestealers are dead meat and will have failed to recoup even half of their cost.

In just that one turn, the Judiciar more than pays for itself.

And now we get to the crux of 9th regarding large squads: did you consider splitting that squad in half?

And making it so they can literally never make their points back because they don't get their +1A rule?

How is this a ninth thing, I don't get it....

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Re: 'what's afraid of this', I think Genestealers are a good example.

At 15ppm they're nearly as expensive as Intercessors, but die to a stiff breeze. Hitting first and hitting hard is their saving grace.

If a 20-strong blob (300pts) attacks a unit of 10 Intercessors, they average 17.78 wounds. They have around 50/50 odds of wiping the entire unit before it has a chance to strike back.

If those Intercessors have a Judiciar, they hit first, inflicting 6.67 wounds, killing a third of the Genestealers. The remainder strike back for 11.85 wounds, or killing just over half the Intercessor squad. The Judiciar contributes another two kills. The Genestealers are now just over half their starting strength, while the Intercessors are just below half.

In the Marine turn, if they can fall back just out of melee range, then the Genestealers are dead meat and will have failed to recoup even half of their cost.

In just that one turn, the Judiciar more than pays for itself.

And now we get to the crux of 9th regarding large squads: did you consider splitting that squad in half?

And making it so they can literally never make their points back because they don't get their +1A rule?

How is this a ninth thing, I don't get it....

9th is all about MSU. Putting all your eggs in one basket with Genestealers (which are already pretty meh to begin with) is bad. If Marines didn't fear them to begin with, why does a Judiciar change that?

Plus even if you don't get that extra attack, two squads of ten would enable more targets being hit. In your scenario, if it were just two separate squads, you still neuter the Marine squad considerably with ten having made a charge.

On the original topic;

I sat down to paint my Judiciar last night...and I decided to flip through his rules. I was left just baffled. Why does this exist? Why not just do a chapter/company champion if you wanted a cool sword guy in the box set? If you wanted the stike last effect in the marine army why not put it on a relic for ancients, librarians and chaplains?

I really hope the codex does literally anything with this unit, whether it be folding it into a weapon option for Chaplains, or just making it somewhat interesting...i dunno. It's super 1 dimensional though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Plus even if you don't get that extra attack, two squads of ten would enable more targets being hit. In your scenario, if it were just two separate squads, you still neuter the Marine squad considerably with ten having made a charge.

10 is small compared to 20, but it's not the 9th Ed Blast rule forces the Rhino Rush MSU Meta small I think you're referring to. If you're ducking blast, why not 4x5?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Why does this exist? Why not just do a chapter/company champion if you wanted a cool sword guy in the box set?

I was going to guess they already did. I was going to guess the Victrix Guard were going viral in the condensed codex, you know everyone gets sword brethren (Assault Intercessors), so Victrix goes to everyone but then I looked at the boxed set again. 3 Bladeguard including Sergeant, Bladeguard ancient. I think there's a Bladeguard Champion to round out the Command Squad. I'm pretty curious myself why it wasn't in the box.

As for the model I want to know why it was IN the box.. the Bladeguard Ancient. I mean I realize I just suggested this is a command squad as they currently exist with a 3 person squad - and seperate entries for and Elite slot IC Ancient + Elite slot IC Champion... but why did we need ANOTHER Primaris Ancient to go with ANOTHER Primaris Captain, and ANOTHER Primaris Lieutenant? If this is the new paradigm I think by 2025 we're going to have 15 different Primaris Captains, 12 different Primaris Lieutenants, 6 different Primaris Ancients, 8 slightly different Something Intercessors, and 42 different 3 man FA/HS squads.

yukishiro1 wrote:
No, it doesn't do that at all. It doesn't remotely do that. You can't interrupt until your opponent has had the chance to fight once. That you would say it is anywhere similar just shows how much you don't understand the utility of the ability.

As for why Space Marines shouldn't have got it - because they have pretty much everything else already. An army with zero weaknesses is terrible design. The only weakness space marines had prior to the judiciar is being charged by stuff that could kill them before they could fight back. The judiciar plugs that one tiny crack in the Space Marine arsenal.

I understand the utility plenty well, if you're charged by multiple units and you need to whack one before it attacks, both let you do that on a basic level. They are similar on a basic conceptual level, they are different on a practical level.

The judiciar is better than the strat, but dont act like it was impossible for marines to strike before a charging unit without one.

Is it weird that I really dislike this model as a Space Marine but LOVE it for an Inquisitor?

Breton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Plus even if you don't get that extra attack, two squads of ten would enable more targets being hit. In your scenario, if it were just two separate squads, you still neuter the Marine squad considerably with ten having made a charge.

10 is small compared to 20, but it's not the 9th Ed Blast rule forces the Rhino Rush MSU Meta small I think you're referring to. If you're ducking blast, why not 4x5?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Why does this exist? Why not just do a chapter/company champion if you wanted a cool sword guy in the box set?

I was going to guess they already did. I was going to guess the Victrix Guard were going viral in the condensed codex, you know everyone gets sword brethren (Assault Intercessors), so Victrix goes to everyone but then I looked at the boxed set again. 3 Bladeguard including Sergeant, Bladeguard ancient. I think there's a Bladeguard Champion to round out the Command Squad. I'm pretty curious myself why it wasn't in the box.

As for the model I want to know why it was IN the box.. the Bladeguard Ancient. I mean I realize I just suggested this is a command squad as they currently exist with a 3 person squad - and seperate entries for and Elite slot IC Ancient + Elite slot IC Champion... but why did we need ANOTHER Primaris Ancient to go with ANOTHER Primaris Captain, and ANOTHER Primaris Lieutenant? If this is the new paradigm I think by 2025 we're going to have 15 different Primaris Captains, 12 different Primaris Lieutenants, 6 different Primaris Ancients, 8 slightly different Something Intercessors, and 42 different 3 man FA/HS squads.

I'd probably go for just 4×5 myself but just for the sake of argument I split them directly in half.

Dudeface wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
No, it doesn't do that at all. It doesn't remotely do that. You can't interrupt until your opponent has had the chance to fight once. That you would say it is anywhere similar just shows how much you don't understand the utility of the ability.

As for why Space Marines shouldn't have got it - because they have pretty much everything else already. An army with zero weaknesses is terrible design. The only weakness space marines had prior to the judiciar is being charged by stuff that could kill them before they could fight back. The judiciar plugs that one tiny crack in the Space Marine arsenal.

I understand the utility plenty well, if you're charged by multiple units and you need to whack one before it attacks, both let you do that on a basic level. They are similar on a basic conceptual level, they are different on a practical level.

The judiciar is better than the strat, but dont act like it was impossible for marines to strike before a charging unit without one.

It literally was impossible before. I don't know why you're even arguing this. Being able to strike before a second charging unit of your opponent's choice is vastly different than being able to strike ahead of the unit you want to strike ahead of.

If the best defense for why SM should have got this is "well every faction can interrupt and this isn't all that different" that pretty much says it all re: what a bad idea the judiciar was.

yukishiro1 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
No, it doesn't do that at all. It doesn't remotely do that. You can't interrupt until your opponent has had the chance to fight once. That you would say it is anywhere similar just shows how much you don't understand the utility of the ability.

As for why Space Marines shouldn't have got it - because they have pretty much everything else already. An army with zero weaknesses is terrible design. The only weakness space marines had prior to the judiciar is being charged by stuff that could kill them before they could fight back. The judiciar plugs that one tiny crack in the Space Marine arsenal.

I understand the utility plenty well, if you're charged by multiple units and you need to whack one before it attacks, both let you do that on a basic level. They are similar on a basic conceptual level, they are different on a practical level.

The judiciar is better than the strat, but dont act like it was impossible for marines to strike before a charging unit without one.

It literally was impossible before. I don't know why you're even arguing this. Being able to strike before a second charging unit of your opponent's choice is vastly different than being able to strike ahead of the unit you want to strike ahead of.

If the best defense for why SM should have got this is "well every faction can interrupt and this isn't all that different" that pretty much says it all re: what a bad idea the judiciar was.

Your next challenge, see how many top 3 placing lists have one in, see if 3 x judiciar is breaking the game.