the_scotsman wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

I think next year we will see Eldar get a nice range revamp with Striking Scorpions and Warp Spiders in plastic (mentioned in PA), plus Phoenix Lords for both. They could really go to town and release all the aspects remaining in plastic. That would be a BIG release.

I mean...

...Would it?

Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Striking Scorpions, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Karandras, Maugan Ra, Fuegan, Asurmen, New Warp Spider Lord. So, 11 kits, 5 of which are single character clampacks, if they were to do them all at once.

Let's compare to...

Gravis Captain, Bladeguard Ancient, Judicar, Assault Intercessors, Eradicators, Heavy Intercessors, Bladeguard Veterans, Outriders, Storm Speeder, Gladiator, Hammerfall Turret, Primaris Techmarine, Spacemario Kart. 13 kits, 4 of which are character clampacks, not counting the additional sprue molds that gw had to invest in to make monopose bladeguard, monopose Assault Ints, and monopose Eradicators.

It still remains wild to me that this game seemingly unique among 'ensemble/multifaction games' of all kinds there's just a bizarre assumption that one faction should both get and deserve 5x as many releases as any other given faction. It's like if in every MTG set 1/2 the cards were specifically Blue cards, and they'd been doing that for years and eveyrone just shrugged and went "Well of course 1/2 the cards are Blue, 1/3 of the playerbase plays Blue, they're by far the most popular!"

Slightly disingenuous argument comparing a starter set launch and faction (who get a sleep of etb kits in addition to a normal release) to a mid edition faction refresh.

Never the less, no faction deserves more or less than any other and GW will just do what they do. It's either accept that and be happy with what kits a release brings, move on or live in perpetual disgruntlement.

Dear GW,

Could we please have the rest of our codex?


Kindest Regards

Dark Eldar players

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

I think next year we will see Eldar get a nice range revamp with Striking Scorpions and Warp Spiders in plastic (mentioned in PA), plus Phoenix Lords for both. They could really go to town and release all the aspects remaining in plastic. That would be a BIG release.

I mean...

...Would it?

Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Striking Scorpions, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Karandras, Maugan Ra, Fuegan, Asurmen, New Warp Spider Lord. So, 11 kits, 5 of which are single character clampacks, if they were to do them all at once.

Let's compare to...

Gravis Captain, Bladeguard Ancient, Judicar, Assault Intercessors, Eradicators, Heavy Intercessors, Bladeguard Veterans, Outriders, Storm Speeder, Gladiator, Hammerfall Turret, Primaris Techmarine, Spacemario Kart. 13 kits, 4 of which are character clampacks, not counting the additional sprue molds that gw had to invest in to make monopose bladeguard, monopose Assault Ints, and monopose Eradicators.

It still remains wild to me that this game seemingly unique among 'ensemble/multifaction games' of all kinds there's just a bizarre assumption that one faction should both get and deserve 5x as many releases as any other given faction. It's like if in every MTG set 1/2 the cards were specifically Blue cards, and they'd been doing that for years and eveyrone just shrugged and went "Well of course 1/2 the cards are Blue, 1/3 of the playerbase plays Blue, they're by far the most popular!"

Slightly disingenuous argument comparing a starter set launch and faction (who get a sleep of etb kits in addition to a normal release) to a mid edition faction refresh.

Never the less, no faction deserves more or less than any other and GW will just do what they do. It's either accept that and be happy with what kits a release brings, move on or live in perpetual disgruntlement.

I'm not sure what a "sleep" is, I assume you meant like, a lot or something. I'm only counting each of the kits once, and just mentioning that in terms of financial investment, the ETB Bladeguard and Multipart Bladeguard are only 1 unit but they cost GW twice as much investment (or if you'd rather think of it this way: The investment into the multipart bladeguard is not justified by the fact the ETB bladeguard were in the starter box/released with the launch of the edition as that was a separate sprue mold unlike for example Necron Warriors who I believe had their full sprue in the starter)

But if you want to talk about a mid edition faction refresh idk we could talk about the shadowspear marine releases+codex 2.0 character releases which were a mid-edition faction refresh. Spoiler alert that was a way bigger release.

If you have some other way to let a company know that you're unhappy wtih the service they're providing within a capitalist economic system than withdrawing financial support from those products they put out that you don't like, letting them know you don't like them on social media, and requesting an alternative product that you would like and buy, let me know.

The idea that I and others frustrated with the constant stream of marine diarrhea are 'living in perpetual disgruntlement' is pretty funny, though. I don't even spend the majority of time I spend THINKING ABOUT 40K being annoyed at marines. Actually I spent all my painting/hobbying time of the last week painting up marine bits and magnetizing my deathwatch models.

the_scotsman wrote:

I mean...

...Would it?

Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Striking Scorpions, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Karandras, Maugan Ra, Fuegan, Asurmen, New Warp Spider Lord. So, 11 kits, 5 of which are single character clampacks, if they were to do them all at once.

Let's compare to...

Gravis Captain, Bladeguard Ancient, Judicar, Assault Intercessors, Eradicators, Heavy Intercessors, Bladeguard Veterans, Outriders, Storm Speeder, Gladiator, Hammerfall Turret, Primaris Techmarine, Spacemario Kart. 13 kits, 4 of which are character clampacks, not counting the additional sprue molds that gw had to invest in to make monopose bladeguard, monopose Assault Ints, and monopose Eradicators.

Out of all those monoposes you mentioned, only Assault Intercessors and Outriders(and by comparison, the Necron Warriors and Skorpekh Destroyers+Plasmacyte) got their own sprues. The Captain, Overlord, Lieutenant, and Royal Wardens all have their own frames as well.
The Eradicators, Bladeguard, Bladeguard Ancient, Judicar, and Chaplain were all on one shared sprue. Same with the Necron Plasmancer, Cryptothralls, Skorpekh Lord, and Ressurector.

There's no guarantee of the Judicar getting a clamshell release, just like the Relictor for Stormcast still hasn't gotten one.

All that said:
There was a rumor going around that there's a "big release" coming for Aeldari in 2021. What that entails and if it's still on track or was even real in the first place? Who knows. There has been some talk about GW being happy with how the little 'army in a box' setups for Lumineth and Sisters have done, and I could see them using a similar method to at least make teaser samplers for Aeldari and other factions that players have felt are 'abandoned'.

Personal hope for Aeldari?
-Some dual kit Aspect Warriors. Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers have always, IMO, felt like they have enough shared parts that it could be done reasonably. Same with Warp Spiders and Scorpions.
-Rangers
-Shining Spears
-Updated Dire Avengers that dual kit with Swooping Hawks.

Exarchs/Phoenix Lords...I just don't know how to do it without it being some gigantic thing. I think that wouldn't be a terrible place to have them as part of their respective Temple boxes but that's about as much as I've got.

I'm hoping that next year will bring a big shift to the way the Guard army is setup. I harp on this all the time and I'll continue to do so until I finally just give up on Guard altogether...but without a seismic shift in the way the Guard units are organized or until modeling starts to mean something again, it's a catastrophically mismatched book.

I don't have to say Skitarii HQ as it looks like we're getting one.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I think 2021 NEEDS to bring out a range revamp for Eldar, it's been a joke for a while.

After that doesn't happen, probably see Guard get some new toys, add some superfluous units for Sisters or whatever is easiest.

The eldar range really needs at the very least the finecast curbed...

would also be nice to see a nod torwards corsairs and exodites but that would be just preference at this point..

guard needs it's core infantry updated but in a decent manner, (hopefully with a more common sense pricing point aswell).

GSC need more then anything new a dex.

The worst thing about the absence of Exodites is how little work it would be for GW to add them. If they could just dump the Daemons from AoS into 40k with almost no modification then doing the same thing with the AoS high elves seems like a no-brainer.

And yes, Eldar ... forgive me, "Aeldari" need a range-wide update more than anyone else.

 vipoid wrote:
Dear GW,

Could we please have the rest of our codex?


Kindest Regards

Dark Eldar players

Dear Dark Eldar (Drukhari TM) Players

Don't worry, your new codex is on the way, and rest assured our new intern has spent several hours working on it.

Here is a sneak peek:

KABAL OF THE FLAYED SKULL
- Re-roll hit rolls of 1 in close combat. This does not apply to Artefacts of Cruelty.

It still remains wild to me that this game seemingly unique among 'ensemble/multifaction games' of all kinds there's just a bizarre assumption that one faction should both get and deserve 5x as many releases as any other given faction. It's like if in every MTG set 1/2 the cards were specifically Blue cards, and they'd been doing that for years and eveyrone just shrugged and went "Well of course 1/2 the cards are Blue, 1/3 of the playerbase plays Blue, they're by far the most popular!"

There are a lot more marine players then eldar players. You think that a sports school is going to invest the same money in to something like gymnastics and football. And more then half the people play w40k version of blue. In fact from what people working for GW been saying about the marine sells, they out sell whole other game systems GW has.

Or to use an MtG example daddy Hasbro doesn't care as much about people playing legacy, comparing to those that buy all the vault sets .

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The BA index was thin because they're fairly codex adherent. And even with that in mind, they're quite far ahead of Chapters like Raven Guard who actually have their own supplements right now...that just have a single character.

yeah the index gave us what we needed. blood angels simply don't have much to distingish them from codex marines. they have Death company units, their own characters and libby dreads.. and... thats about it yeah?

They had half the strats of the other index, which had half the strats of a supplement. They ended up with 25% of what other Codex Compliants get in their supplement. They didn't even get some sort of place holder generics that have assorted versions in multiple supplements.

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

I think next year we will see Eldar get a nice range revamp with Striking Scorpions and Warp Spiders in plastic (mentioned in PA), plus Phoenix Lords for both. They could really go to town and release all the aspects remaining in plastic. That would be a BIG release.

I mean...

...Would it?

Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Striking Scorpions, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Karandras, Maugan Ra, Fuegan, Asurmen, New Warp Spider Lord. So, 11 kits, 5 of which are single character clampacks, if they were to do them all at once.

Let's compare to...

Gravis Captain, Bladeguard Ancient, Judicar, Assault Intercessors, Eradicators, Heavy Intercessors, Bladeguard Veterans, Outriders, Storm Speeder, Gladiator, Hammerfall Turret, Primaris Techmarine, Spacemario Kart. 13 kits, 4 of which are character clampacks, not counting the additional sprue molds that gw had to invest in to make monopose bladeguard, monopose Assault Ints, and monopose Eradicators.

It still remains wild to me that this game seemingly unique among 'ensemble/multifaction games' of all kinds there's just a bizarre assumption that one faction should both get and deserve 5x as many releases as any other given faction. It's like if in every MTG set 1/2 the cards were specifically Blue cards, and they'd been doing that for years and eveyrone just shrugged and went "Well of course 1/2 the cards are Blue, 1/3 of the playerbase plays Blue, they're by far the most popular!"

Slightly disingenuous argument comparing a starter set launch and faction (who get a sleep of etb kits in addition to a normal release) to a mid edition faction refresh.

Never the less, no faction deserves more or less than any other and GW will just do what they do. It's either accept that and be happy with what kits a release brings, move on or live in perpetual disgruntlement.

I'm not sure what a "sleep" is, I assume you meant like, a lot or something. I'm only counting each of the kits once, and just mentioning that in terms of financial investment, the ETB Bladeguard and Multipart Bladeguard are only 1 unit but they cost GW twice as much investment (or if you'd rather think of it this way: The investment into the multipart bladeguard is not justified by the fact the ETB bladeguard were in the starter box/released with the launch of the edition as that was a separate sprue mold unlike for example Necron Warriors who I believe had their full sprue in the starter)

But if you want to talk about a mid edition faction refresh idk we could talk about the shadowspear marine releases+codex 2.0 character releases which were a mid-edition faction refresh. Spoiler alert that was a way bigger release.

If you have some other way to let a company know that you're unhappy wtih the service they're providing within a capitalist economic system than withdrawing financial support from those products they put out that you don't like, letting them know you don't like them on social media, and requesting an alternative product that you would like and buy, let me know.

The idea that I and others frustrated with the constant stream of marine diarrhea are 'living in perpetual disgruntlement' is pretty funny, though. I don't even spend the majority of time I spend THINKING ABOUT 40K being annoyed at marines. Actually I spent all my painting/hobbying time of the last week painting up marine bits and magnetizing my deathwatch models.

Sorry the phone autocorrected "slew" to sleep. But yes, the atv, turret, chaplain on bike and outriders are etb or new player incentive kits which are part of a new edition starter support. Same for the heavy lokhust, skorpekhs and doomstalker.

Marines 2.0 release wave:
Captain
Lieutenant
Librarian
Eliminators
Invictor
Infiltrators
Impulsor
A start collecting box

Thats 3 clampacks and 4 kits with a start collecting box. Less than the proposed eldar list above unless I missed any. I've skipped the special characters as they were tied to the supplements not the codex.

The Newman wrote:

The worst thing about the absence of Exodites is how little work it would be for GW to add them. If they could just dump the Daemons from AoS into 40k with almost no modification then doing the same thing with the AoS high elves seems like a no-brainer.

Daemons have always been a big part of 40k though. They can manifest virtually everywhere.
Exodites are limited specifically to Exodite Worlds.

It's a similar issue as exists for adding Planetary Defense Forces or Arbites, not being a 'Big Name' force but instead something that is best represented by a unit at most in the main factions.

And yes, Eldar ... forgive me, "Aeldari" need a range-wide update more than anyone else.

Orks and Guard would like a word.

Aeldari definitely need help, but there's no "more than anyone else".

What are you talking about?

Orks don't need no upgrade, we've got everything but characters, let dem panzees get their stuff.

 Jidmah wrote:
What are you talking about?

Orks don't need no upgrade, we've got everything but characters, let dem panzees get their stuff.

Kommandos, Tankbustas, Ard Boyz?
Deffkoptas?

Either way the point is that there are a few more factions than just Aeldari which could use some real significant releases and attention. Prior to the recut Fire Warriors and new Crisis Suits, I would have said Tau too.

Didn't eldar get like 1-2 characters and a banshee unit in 8th ed ? There are a few armies that got no units in 8th updates. Or just got a primaris Lt as a character.

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

I mean...

...Would it?

Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Striking Scorpions, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Karandras, Maugan Ra, Fuegan, Asurmen, New Warp Spider Lord. So, 11 kits, 5 of which are single character clampacks, if they were to do them all at once.

Let's compare to...

Gravis Captain, Bladeguard Ancient, Judicar, Assault Intercessors, Eradicators, Heavy Intercessors, Bladeguard Veterans, Outriders, Storm Speeder, Gladiator, Hammerfall Turret, Primaris Techmarine, Spacemario Kart. 13 kits, 4 of which are character clampacks, not counting the additional sprue molds that gw had to invest in to make monopose bladeguard, monopose Assault Ints, and monopose Eradicators.

Out of all those monoposes you mentioned, only Assault Intercessors and Outriders(and by comparison, the Necron Warriors and Skorpekh Destroyers+Plasmacyte) got their own sprues. The Captain, Overlord, Lieutenant, and Royal Wardens all have their own frames as well.
The Eradicators, Bladeguard, Bladeguard Ancient, Judicar, and Chaplain were all on one shared sprue. Same with the Necron Plasmancer, Cryptothralls, Skorpekh Lord, and Ressurector.

There's no guarantee of the Judicar getting a clamshell release, just like the Relictor for Stormcast still hasn't gotten one.

All that said:
There was a rumor going around that there's a "big release" coming for Aeldari in 2021. What that entails and if it's still on track or was even real in the first place? Who knows. There has been some talk about GW being happy with how the little 'army in a box' setups for Lumineth and Sisters have done, and I could see them using a similar method to at least make teaser samplers for Aeldari and other factions that players have felt are 'abandoned'.

Personal hope for Aeldari?
-Some dual kit Aspect Warriors. Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers have always, IMO, felt like they have enough shared parts that it could be done reasonably. Same with Warp Spiders and Scorpions.
-Rangers
-Shining Spears
-Updated Dire Avengers that dual kit with Swooping Hawks.

Exarchs/Phoenix Lords...I just don't know how to do it without it being some gigantic thing. I think that wouldn't be a terrible place to have them as part of their respective Temple boxes but that's about as much as I've got.

I'm hoping that next year will bring a big shift to the way the Guard army is setup. I harp on this all the time and I'll continue to do so until I finally just give up on Guard altogether...but without a seismic shift in the way the Guard units are organized or until modeling starts to mean something again, it's a catastrophically mismatched book.

I don't have to say Skitarii HQ as it looks like we're getting one.

I really don't think dual kits would do aspect warriors justice, the only thing they have in common is that they're aspect warriors and eldar, so they share the same bodies and then what? They're all unique in terms of weapons, runes, armour, helmets and other trinkets, a dual kit wouldn't actually be any good in preserving their flavour.

Regarding whether some armies need it more or not, Eldar do more than Orks and Guard. 15 year old plus sculpts that are still in finecast need it more.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Newman wrote:

The worst thing about the absence of Exodites is how little work it would be for GW to add them. If they could just dump the Daemons from AoS into 40k with almost no modification then doing the same thing with the AoS high elves seems like a no-brainer.

Daemons have always been a big part of 40k though. They can manifest virtually everywhere.
Exodites are limited specifically to Exodite Worlds.

It's a similar issue as exists for adding Planetary Defense Forces or Arbites, not being a 'Big Name' force but instead something that is best represented by a unit at most in the main factions.

And yes, Eldar ... forgive me, "Aeldari" need a range-wide update more than anyone else.

Orks and Guard would like a word.

Aeldari definitely need help, but there's no "more than anyone else".

Orks and Guard don't have 75% of their army still in finecast.
They can wait.

The Newman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I think 2021 NEEDS to bring out a range revamp for Eldar, it's been a joke for a while.

After that doesn't happen, probably see Guard get some new toys, add some superfluous units for Sisters or whatever is easiest.

The eldar range really needs at the very least the finecast curbed...

would also be nice to see a nod torwards corsairs and exodites but that would be just preference at this point..

guard needs it's core infantry updated but in a decent manner, (hopefully with a more common sense pricing point aswell).

GSC need more then anything new a dex.

The worst thing about the absence of Exodites is how little work it would be for GW to add them. If they could just dump the Daemons from AoS into 40k with almost no modification then doing the same thing with the AoS high elves seems like a no-brainer.

And yes, Eldar ... forgive me, "Aeldari" need a range-wide update more than anyone else.

Honestly i'd like corsairs before exodites, simply because it would lend itself also better as a tie in body and bridge to ynnari and is a far more customizable force....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dan2026 wrote:


Orks and Guard don't have 75% of their army still in finecast.
They can wait.

By that metric there are factions out there even more pressing.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The BA index was thin because they're fairly codex adherent. And even with that in mind, they're quite far ahead of Chapters like Raven Guard who actually have their own supplements right now...that just have a single character.

Exactly - don't let GW ruin them they way they have with Wolves and Dark Angels - they at least seem to have stopped sticking "blood" in front everything that began in 5th Ed (IIRC). We don't need new flanderised crap for the Blood Angels.

If we have to have more Chapter specific units beyond the next wave of main line Marine units then lets do one based on established lore for other Chapters or have rules for HH era FW units.

We know we are getting lower lvl HQs for some factions which seems good.

Not Online!!! wrote:


By that metric there are factions out there even more pressing.

Which ones?
I'm not being a dick, I can't think of any other army that still has the majority of its models that old.
A good portion of the Eldar army hasn't even reached plastic yet.
That's puts it back probably pre 2000.

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

I think next year we will see Eldar get a nice range revamp with Striking Scorpions and Warp Spiders in plastic (mentioned in PA), plus Phoenix Lords for both. They could really go to town and release all the aspects remaining in plastic. That would be a BIG release.

I mean...

...Would it?

Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Striking Scorpions, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Karandras, Maugan Ra, Fuegan, Asurmen, New Warp Spider Lord. So, 11 kits, 5 of which are single character clampacks, if they were to do them all at once.

Let's compare to...

Gravis Captain, Bladeguard Ancient, Judicar, Assault Intercessors, Eradicators, Heavy Intercessors, Bladeguard Veterans, Outriders, Storm Speeder, Gladiator, Hammerfall Turret, Primaris Techmarine, Spacemario Kart. 13 kits, 4 of which are character clampacks, not counting the additional sprue molds that gw had to invest in to make monopose bladeguard, monopose Assault Ints, and monopose Eradicators.

It still remains wild to me that this game seemingly unique among 'ensemble/multifaction games' of all kinds there's just a bizarre assumption that one faction should both get and deserve 5x as many releases as any other given faction. It's like if in every MTG set 1/2 the cards were specifically Blue cards, and they'd been doing that for years and eveyrone just shrugged and went "Well of course 1/2 the cards are Blue, 1/3 of the playerbase plays Blue, they're by far the most popular!"

Slightly disingenuous argument comparing a starter set launch and faction (who get a sleep of etb kits in addition to a normal release) to a mid edition faction refresh.

Never the less, no faction deserves more or less than any other and GW will just do what they do. It's either accept that and be happy with what kits a release brings, move on or live in perpetual disgruntlement.

I'm not sure what a "sleep" is, I assume you meant like, a lot or something. I'm only counting each of the kits once, and just mentioning that in terms of financial investment, the ETB Bladeguard and Multipart Bladeguard are only 1 unit but they cost GW twice as much investment (or if you'd rather think of it this way: The investment into the multipart bladeguard is not justified by the fact the ETB bladeguard were in the starter box/released with the launch of the edition as that was a separate sprue mold unlike for example Necron Warriors who I believe had their full sprue in the starter)

But if you want to talk about a mid edition faction refresh idk we could talk about the shadowspear marine releases+codex 2.0 character releases which were a mid-edition faction refresh. Spoiler alert that was a way bigger release.

If you have some other way to let a company know that you're unhappy wtih the service they're providing within a capitalist economic system than withdrawing financial support from those products they put out that you don't like, letting them know you don't like them on social media, and requesting an alternative product that you would like and buy, let me know.

The idea that I and others frustrated with the constant stream of marine diarrhea are 'living in perpetual disgruntlement' is pretty funny, though. I don't even spend the majority of time I spend THINKING ABOUT 40K being annoyed at marines. Actually I spent all my painting/hobbying time of the last week painting up marine bits and magnetizing my deathwatch models.

Sorry the phone autocorrected "slew" to sleep. But yes, the atv, turret, chaplain on bike and outriders are etb or new player incentive kits which are part of a new edition starter support. Same for the heavy lokhust, skorpekhs and doomstalker.

Marines 2.0 release wave:
Captain
Lieutenant
Librarian
Eliminators
Invictor
Infiltrators
Impulsor
A start collecting box

Thats 3 clampacks and 4 kits with a start collecting box. Less than the proposed eldar list above unless I missed any. I've skipped the special characters as they were tied to the supplements not the codex.

Can you explain to me how the Hammerfall Bunker, a kit with a price point of 60USD that includes 1 optional bits swap, is an "ETB new player incentive kit" and Howling Banshees, a kit with a price point of 55USD that includes 1 optional bits swap, is somehow not an "ETB new player incentive kit"? it does not appear to be snap fit.

There is exactly one (1) optional swap you can perform with the new howling banshee kit. You can choose to change out the arms and head of one of the models in the kit to choose whether or not to make an exarch (say, if you wanted to make a full squad of 10 instead of a min squad of 5). I'm also confused how the Invader ATV is somehow this new category of thing that doesn't count as a kit because it only has 1 optional bits swap. Would the Achilles Ridgerunner or any of the new Ork buggies then not count as "real" kit releases? Was the entire release hailed as the Biggest Most Exciting Xenos Release Ever And No Xenos Player Can Ever Complain Again not a real model release because it was entirely monopose and had very minimal optional bits?

We've seen how GW does plastic aspects. 1 sprue, monopose, only optional bits in the kit are optional exarchs. That makes them the exact. same. financial investment of ANY of the new ETB marine kits. GW doesn't save money on the models having little plastic pegs for sticking their arms into their torsos.

 dan2026 wrote:




Which ones?
I'm not being a dick, I can't think of any other army that still has the majority of its models that old.
A good portion of the Eldar army hasn't even reached plastic yet.
That's puts it back probably pre 2000.

lost and the damned / r&h and elysians aswell as corsair that all got put behind the shed.

But yeah the eldar line up with all the finecrap and sprues elder then alot of the new players is certainly by that metric really damn close to deserving a new line up..
That said, the potatoe face guard does probably get bonus for that because i mean potatoface guard is potatoe.

My ranking for armies that needed a big redo were:

Sisters
Craftworld Eldar
Orks
Guard
Dark Eldar

Necrons would of been way low honestly.
But now they are done and Sisters are done.
Eldar are this huge sore spot, that just gets bigger as time goes on.

Jain Zar and the plastic banshees were a tiny patch on a very big issue.

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

I think next year we will see Eldar get a nice range revamp with Striking Scorpions and Warp Spiders in plastic (mentioned in PA), plus Phoenix Lords for both. They could really go to town and release all the aspects remaining in plastic. That would be a BIG release.

I mean...

...Would it?

Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Striking Scorpions, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Karandras, Maugan Ra, Fuegan, Asurmen, New Warp Spider Lord. So, 11 kits, 5 of which are single character clampacks, if they were to do them all at once.

Let's compare to...

Gravis Captain, Bladeguard Ancient, Judicar, Assault Intercessors, Eradicators, Heavy Intercessors, Bladeguard Veterans, Outriders, Storm Speeder, Gladiator, Hammerfall Turret, Primaris Techmarine, Spacemario Kart. 13 kits, 4 of which are character clampacks, not counting the additional sprue molds that gw had to invest in to make monopose bladeguard, monopose Assault Ints, and monopose Eradicators.

It still remains wild to me that this game seemingly unique among 'ensemble/multifaction games' of all kinds there's just a bizarre assumption that one faction should both get and deserve 5x as many releases as any other given faction. It's like if in every MTG set 1/2 the cards were specifically Blue cards, and they'd been doing that for years and eveyrone just shrugged and went "Well of course 1/2 the cards are Blue, 1/3 of the playerbase plays Blue, they're by far the most popular!"

Slightly disingenuous argument comparing a starter set launch and faction (who get a sleep of etb kits in addition to a normal release) to a mid edition faction refresh.

Never the less, no faction deserves more or less than any other and GW will just do what they do. It's either accept that and be happy with what kits a release brings, move on or live in perpetual disgruntlement.

I'm not sure what a "sleep" is, I assume you meant like, a lot or something. I'm only counting each of the kits once, and just mentioning that in terms of financial investment, the ETB Bladeguard and Multipart Bladeguard are only 1 unit but they cost GW twice as much investment (or if you'd rather think of it this way: The investment into the multipart bladeguard is not justified by the fact the ETB bladeguard were in the starter box/released with the launch of the edition as that was a separate sprue mold unlike for example Necron Warriors who I believe had their full sprue in the starter)

But if you want to talk about a mid edition faction refresh idk we could talk about the shadowspear marine releases+codex 2.0 character releases which were a mid-edition faction refresh. Spoiler alert that was a way bigger release.

If you have some other way to let a company know that you're unhappy wtih the service they're providing within a capitalist economic system than withdrawing financial support from those products they put out that you don't like, letting them know you don't like them on social media, and requesting an alternative product that you would like and buy, let me know.

The idea that I and others frustrated with the constant stream of marine diarrhea are 'living in perpetual disgruntlement' is pretty funny, though. I don't even spend the majority of time I spend THINKING ABOUT 40K being annoyed at marines. Actually I spent all my painting/hobbying time of the last week painting up marine bits and magnetizing my deathwatch models.

Sorry the phone autocorrected "slew" to sleep. But yes, the atv, turret, chaplain on bike and outriders are etb or new player incentive kits which are part of a new edition starter support. Same for the heavy lokhust, skorpekhs and doomstalker.

Marines 2.0 release wave:
Captain
Lieutenant
Librarian
Eliminators
Invictor
Infiltrators
Impulsor
A start collecting box

Thats 3 clampacks and 4 kits with a start collecting box. Less than the proposed eldar list above unless I missed any. I've skipped the special characters as they were tied to the supplements not the codex.

Can you explain to me how the Hammerfall Bunker, a kit with a price point of 60USD that includes 1 optional bits swap, is an "ETB new player incentive kit" and Howling Banshees, a kit with a price point of 55USD that includes 1 optional bits swap, is somehow not an "ETB new player incentive kit"? it does not appear to be snap fit.

There is exactly one (1) optional swap you can perform with the new howling banshee kit. You can choose to change out the arms and head of one of the models in the kit to choose whether or not to make an exarch (say, if you wanted to make a full squad of 10 instead of a min squad of 5). I'm also confused how the Invader ATV is somehow this new category of thing that doesn't count as a kit because it only has 1 optional bits swap. Would the Achilles Ridgerunner or any of the new Ork buggies then not count as "real" kit releases? Was the entire release hailed as the Biggest Most Exciting Xenos Release Ever And No Xenos Player Can Ever Complain Again not a real model release because it was entirely monopose and had very minimal optional bits?

We've seen how GW does plastic aspects. 1 sprue, monopose, only optional bits in the kit are optional exarchs. That makes them the exact. same. financial investment of ANY of the new ETB marine kits. GW doesn't save money on the models having little plastic pegs for sticking their arms into their torsos.

I didn't say the drop bunker, I said turret as in servo turret which is push fit.

You're being intentionally obtuse with most of the above, there is a clear and obvious easy to build range that the ATV is part of and the others aren't.

The ETB ranges accompany the starter set factions as a gateway mechanism. But I'm confident you know this and twisting it into a "look how hard done to the xenos are" point when it doesn't need to be.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Kommandos, Tankbustas, Ard Boyz?

That's just boyz with bagpacks, boyz with rokkits and the last one is both not a unit AND actually found on the boyz sprue currently in production.

Deffkoptas?

They are neither great nor needed (Thanks, bring it down!), the one sold by GW actually isn't finecast but metal, and the secondary market is still saturated with the ones from AOBR.

Either way the point is that there are a few more factions than just Aeldari which could use some real significant releases and attention. Prior to the recut Fire Warriors and new Crisis Suits, I would have said Tau too.

Yes and my point is that orks aren't one of them. Any ork player would be fine with a couple of proper characters, anything else would just be redundant. Orks are one of the few factions which regularly gets releases - 5th had lootas/burnas, kanz and dreads, 6th had planes, 7th had nauts, flash gits, SSAG mek, pain boy, MANz, wazbomm and mek guns, 8th had six buggies, Thrakka+Makari, the mek workshop and da red gobbo.

We don't need more models, we need proppa rules for the ones we have.

Model wise, it's definitely eldar first.

If only we could search on GW's website for what they consider to be these kits:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/searchResults?Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+%3C%3D+1603095900000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1603095900000]&Ntt=easy+to+build&_dynSessConf=7129100433690789982&_dyncharset=UTF-8&view=all

If only they appended "Easy to build" on them as well, like with the myphitic blight hauler.

The new Lokhust Heavy is definitely not push fit, either, FWIW.

in fact, it's really weird, if you look at the breakdown of factions that have them in 40k it looks like...

-Plague marines and blight crawler
-the super old ones from like 4th ed like the cadians and guardians

and then...

redemptor dreadnought, reivers, intercessors, ATV, Turret, aggressors....

the_scotsman wrote:
If only we could search on GW's website for what they consider to be these kits:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/searchResults?Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+%3C%3D+1603095900000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1603095900000]&Ntt=easy+to+build&_dynSessConf=7129100433690789982&_dyncharset=UTF-8&view=all

If only they appended "Easy to build" on them as well, like with the myphitic blight hauler.

Very true, they clearly need to update that field or consider scrapping the name given the banner includes kits that are now oop.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:




Which ones?
I'm not being a dick, I can't think of any other army that still has the majority of its models that old.
A good portion of the Eldar army hasn't even reached plastic yet.
That's puts it back probably pre 2000.

lost and the damned / r&h and elysians aswell as corsair that all got put behind the shed.

But yeah the eldar line up with all the finecrap and sprues elder then alot of the new players is certainly by that metric really damn close to deserving a new line up..
That said, the potatoe face guard does probably get bonus for that because i mean potatoface guard is potatoe.

Hate to say it, but those were Forgeworld releases and don't exactly share the same room as the GW armies. Trying to update them is a job for Forgeworld unfortunately, and they're hot on specialist games now.


Regarding the mentions of Exodites and Corsairs elsewhere, let them stay in the fluff, or OOP, GW doesn't need to dilute the Aeldari range with more half baked factions like Ynnari.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:




Which ones?
I'm not being a dick, I can't think of any other army that still has the majority of its models that old.
A good portion of the Eldar army hasn't even reached plastic yet.
That's puts it back probably pre 2000.

lost and the damned / r&h and elysians aswell as corsair that all got put behind the shed.

But yeah the eldar line up with all the finecrap and sprues elder then alot of the new players is certainly by that metric really damn close to deserving a new line up..
That said, the potatoe face guard does probably get bonus for that because i mean potatoface guard is potatoe.

Hate to say it, but those were Forgeworld releases and don't exactly share the same room as the GW armies. Trying to update them is a job for Forgeworld unfortunately, and they're hot on specialist games now.


Regarding the mentions of Exodites and Corsairs elsewhere, let them stay in the fluff, or OOP, GW doesn't need to dilute the Aeldari range with more half baked factions like Ynnari.

That would be fair if the GW rulesteam wasn't responsible all through 8th for the rules of these which btw not even legends exist for them as of yet.
And it also would be fair f.e. if ynnari were better thought out then corsairs, which they most certainly weren't so if any halfbaked faction should bite the bullet then most certainly it would be the ynnari if we regard quality as the sole perpetrator of that.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

I really don't think dual kits would do aspect warriors justice, the only thing they have in common is that they're aspect warriors and eldar, so they share the same bodies and then what? They're all unique in terms of weapons, runes, armour, helmets and other trinkets, a dual kit wouldn't actually be any good in preserving their flavour.

Some of the 'flavour' for them comes from posing and general accoutrements.
Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons lend themselves to a heavier armor build with a bit more 'static' posing tied to their weapons. They aren't doing flips and stuff.
Warp Spiders and Striking Scorpions have a similar build for their armor, coupled with a similar 'stalking' aesthetic for their background.
Dire Avengers need a refresh, if only to bump the kit size up or maybe to add a few new Exarch options. Coupling them with Swooping Hawks allows for an interesting bit not unlike we're seeing with the Orlock Wreckers going up this weekend, as the bodies have two separate sets of legs for the 'flying' or 'ground' bodies.

The helmets, runes, and weapons are things that would be the big necessity for identity. And if you've built some of the dual kits lately, they're 100% doable.

Regarding whether some armies need it more or not, Eldar do more than Orks and Guard. 15 year old plus sculpts that are still in finecast need it more.

Nobody's denying that the Finecast/resin/whatever you wanna call it these days needs to go. But there's kits in plastic that are just as old if not older. The Basilisk, for example, literally cannot be built without them having added the Vehicle Accessories sprue since the Chimera frame with the Heavy Bolter is not included.

A new Avatar of Khaine, of Greater Daemon scale and with rules to match, would be interesting. Slightly blinged out Striking Scorpions that are instantly forgettable on the table would not.

 Jack Flask wrote:

The DG and TS 'dexs have almost nothing in common with the main CSM dex. It's not like SM where DA, BA, and SW where, despite their fans constant insistence, the vast majority of the units were shared and even the variant entries were just a couple of additional wargear options or an extra special rule.

It'd honestly be more nonsensical for DG and TS to become CSM supplements as they are.

speaking of spicy takes.

You really think that DG and TS have less differences then SW to normal Marines.
There are 20+ datasheets with specific exceptions for the wolves in the marine codex. There are 5 units SW can not use. There about 30 index unique data sheets for SW.
The exceptions for SW are confusing and convoluted. Some exceptions changing unit size, some wargear options, some just keywords. Some units have functional equivilants in the index, some units interacting with some logical synergies where others do not ... and the supplement will bring even more exceptions and confusion. we can see that already by how the keywords have been set up. This was nothing but a cash grab to sell players two books and it makes playing some of these sub factions (especially SW) way way way more confusing then just releasing their own unique datasheets instead of these marine datasheets that will have tons of exceptions... can you imagine how it is going to look after the supplements add wolf gaurd squade leader options to each unit, its going to be a hot mess to figure out...

but hey... i guess you got plague marines ,,, oh right,,, grey hunters XD ,,,, ooohhhh you got unique vehicles.... ya SW got a few of those...... unique elite slots , yup wulfen .... fast attack,,, yup thunderwolves.... so SW have unique sculpts, unique varients, unique unit composition (a vetran in each squad is not the same as a unit sgt for those of you who think its the same thing, the units ALSO have unit sgts) , unique unit sizes, unique abilities and unique upgrades.... Deathgaurd and TS are no where near as unique to CSM as SW is to SM ... but hey, i guess they all use bolt guns right.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

I really don't think dual kits would do aspect warriors justice, the only thing they have in common is that they're aspect warriors and eldar, so they share the same bodies and then what? They're all unique in terms of weapons, runes, armour, helmets and other trinkets, a dual kit wouldn't actually be any good in preserving their flavour.

Some of the 'flavour' for them comes from posing and general accoutrements.
Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons lend themselves to a heavier armor build with a bit more 'static' posing tied to their weapons. They aren't doing flips and stuff.
Warp Spiders and Striking Scorpions have a similar build for their armor, coupled with a similar 'stalking' aesthetic for their background.
Dire Avengers need a refresh, if only to bump the kit size up or maybe to add a few new Exarch options. Coupling them with Swooping Hawks allows for an interesting bit not unlike we're seeing with the Orlock Wreckers going up this weekend, as the bodies have two separate sets of legs for the 'flying' or 'ground' bodies.

The helmets, runes, and weapons are things that would be the big necessity for identity. And if you've built some of the dual kits lately, they're 100% doable.

Regarding whether some armies need it more or not, Eldar do more than Orks and Guard. 15 year old plus sculpts that are still in finecast need it more.

Nobody's denying that the Finecast/resin/whatever you wanna call it these days needs to go. But there's kits in plastic that are just as old if not older. The Basilisk, for example, literally cannot be built without them having added the Vehicle Accessories sprue since the Chimera frame with the Heavy Bolter is not included.

Sure, if you want to just gloss over the fact they have their own armour types and are armoured in different places. They're not space marines so don't lend themselves well to a dual kit. The only kit that is viable as a dual kit would be Shining Spears, akin to the warlock/farseer jetbike kit, which is a literal head swap.

If you want to talk about plastics, Vypers get their stock options in the box with no option for an underslung shuriken cannon or heavy weapons. The Falcon is 24 years old with a tooling that is ageing and it doesn't have access to an underslung shuriken cannon or the vehicle upgrade bits. The only complete grav tank kit is the Fire Prism/Night Spinner combo, which has options for star engines, vectored engines and spirit stones as well as an underslung cannon. So it's not just our finecast stuff that needs an update.

Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

I think 2021 could be a real milestone for GW as long as they give SM the new supplements and then leave it at that. they need to give the rest of the armies the same love and attention this year that’s SM have had for a while and the Necrons got with indomitus.

If we get another year of 80% SM then it will suck and they have missed an opportunity

 dan2026 wrote:
Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

Hard to wound and survive hits that would incapacitate a human = T4

Dudeface wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

Hard to wound and survive hits that would incapacitate a human = T4

We both know in game terms that means nothing.
T4 does nothing to protect Orks.

 dan2026 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

Hard to wound and survive hits that would incapacitate a human = T4

We both know in game terms that means nothing.
T4 does nothing to protect Orks.

Maybe but the fluff doesn't immediately support 2w, then you also need to raise points which drops bodies, which drops attacks making them less deadly. It's not a simple puzzle.

Dudeface wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

Hard to wound and survive hits that would incapacitate a human = T4

Hard to wound and survive hits that would incapacitate a human = T4
Power Armor rather than Carapace Armor = Sv3+ instead of Sv4+

And then...W2???

Seems the game dun changed.

Personally though, I don't want w2 orks. The way I'd split out the various types of toughness/survivability in the game would be:

1) Armor Saves, 1-2 wounds: Armies whose toughness is Hard, but Brittle. Marines, Sisters, Necrons. Should have inbulit vulnerability to fixed-damage antielite weaponry with lots of AP, and should have low toughness.

2) High toughness, wound ignore mechanics, morale ignore mechanics: Armies who are big and brutish and just shrug off solid hits, like Orks and Nids and Nurgle. This is why I'd like to see T5 orks personally if orks are going to have a durability bump.

3) high wounds, low sv, low toughness: Armies whose durability is quantity over quality. Guard, GSC, swarm units in general. I'd rather see swarms ignore multidamage weaponry entirely (maximum 1 damage taken per wound) and always suffer max Blast.

4) Invuln saves and - to hit and wound mechanics: Fast, magical or tricky armies like drukhari harlequins eldar and daemons.

Personally I like the way 9th seems to be headed with the different approaches to durability. My biggest adjustments would be:

-Adjust the to-hit to-wound cap to allow for -1/+1 from modifiers to the FIRING model, and -1/+1 from modifiers to the TARGET model. Abilities on the target model's datasheet or stratagems used by the target model are modifiers to the target, firing Heavy while moving, advancing and shooting assault, shooting over dense cover and the odd Debuff psychic power are modifiers to the firing model. Allow for a cumulative -2, and that way playing as an army that relies on -1 doesn't just magically grant your opponent the ability to advance and fire all their assault weapons without penalty.

-Change up vehicles to better reflect the different ways infantry are durable. Nid and Nurgle and Ork vehicles and monsters should have higher toughness, higher wounds, lower Sv and it should be more common for marine and Tau and CWE monsters and vehicles to have 2+ save rather than 3+ save.

Personally I think 2 wounds make more sense for Orks than T5.
Perhaps it would be unbalanced, I don’t know.
But if Boys go to T5, Nobz would probably have to be T6 and that feels too high.
But Boys with 2 wounds and Nobz with 3, feels more reasonable.

I'm hopeful for EC finally getting their time in the sun. Years of hints aside, the impending Slaanesh mortals in AoS & Direchasm have me thinking that 2021 might finally be my year.

At the very least, give me some damn Noise Marines...

Other than that I'll put my foot on the Eldar bandwagon. Wouldn't be surprised to see them arriving at around the same time as EC. Absolutely no idea how they could handle the release though because Eldar need an absurd number of kits.

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

Hard to wound and survive hits that would incapacitate a human = T4

Hard to wound and survive hits that would incapacitate a human = T4
Power Armor rather than Carapace Armor = Sv3+ instead of Sv4+

And then...W2???

Seems the game dun changed.

Personally though, I don't want w2 orks. The way I'd split out the various types of toughness/survivability in the game would be:

1) Armor Saves, 1-2 wounds: Armies whose toughness is Hard, but Brittle. Marines, Sisters, Necrons. Should have inbulit vulnerability to fixed-damage antielite weaponry with lots of AP, and should have low toughness.

2) High toughness, wound ignore mechanics, morale ignore mechanics: Armies who are big and brutish and just shrug off solid hits, like Orks and Nids and Nurgle. This is why I'd like to see T5 orks personally if orks are going to have a durability bump.

3) high wounds, low sv, low toughness: Armies whose durability is quantity over quality. Guard, GSC, swarm units in general. I'd rather see swarms ignore multidamage weaponry entirely (maximum 1 damage taken per wound) and always suffer max Blast.

4) Invuln saves and - to hit and wound mechanics: Fast, magical or tricky armies like drukhari harlequins eldar and daemons.

Personally I like the way 9th seems to be headed with the different approaches to durability. My biggest adjustments would be:

-Adjust the to-hit to-wound cap to allow for -1/+1 from modifiers to the FIRING model, and -1/+1 from modifiers to the TARGET model. Abilities on the target model's datasheet or stratagems used by the target model are modifiers to the target, firing Heavy while moving, advancing and shooting assault, shooting over dense cover and the odd Debuff psychic power are modifiers to the firing model. Allow for a cumulative -2, and that way playing as an army that relies on -1 doesn't just magically grant your opponent the ability to advance and fire all their assault weapons without penalty.

-Change up vehicles to better reflect the different ways infantry are durable. Nid and Nurgle and Ork vehicles and monsters should have higher toughness, higher wounds, lower Sv and it should be more common for marine and Tau and CWE monsters and vehicles to have 2+ save rather than 3+ save.

Lots of good suggestions, regards the point at hand initially marines need more grievous wounds to die than a standard ork boy? A Boy can lose an arm and bleed out, a marine won't for example, hence 2 wounds. If you go down that rabbit hole you have to start asking why a captain can magically survive more damage than any other marine. What about a commisar means he can eat multiple bolter rounds suddenly etc.

I mean, do they? You can literally take an ork's head, slap it back on their neck and stitch it together and he survives. That's what they just did to ghazghkull.

It sure doesn't SEEM like physiologically an astartes is hardier. And honestly, it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense for orks to have blood period, their insides ought to be spongy fungal tissue.

The main reasoning I don't think T4 W2 is a good model for orks is because it introduces a weakness to D2 weaponry that I don't think makes any sense, and I also don't want to give up the orks' identity as having a significant numerical advantage over their opponents. A w2 ork boy would probably be a ~10pt model, compared to like a 13pt necron warrior it just doesn't seem like the armies would be distinct enough.

Nobs are currently W2 boyz, they wouldn't have to be T6. They could retain the same stat differential as now.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Honestly i'd like corsairs before exodites, simply because it would lend itself also better as a tie in body and bridge to ynnari and is a far more customizable force....

Exodites were hinted at in the PA books to becoming more active, or at least the younger Exodites that seem to have been inspired by the Ynnari. So it could easily be written that the Exodites start venturing forth into the Webway instead of just acting as defenders of their own worlds.

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, do they? You can literally take an ork's head, slap it back on their neck and stitch it together and he survives. That's what they just did to ghazghkull.

It sure doesn't SEEM like physiologically an astartes is hardier. And honestly, it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense for orks to have blood period, their insides ought to be spongy fungal tissue.

The main reasoning I don't think T4 W2 is a good model for orks is because it introduces a weakness to D2 weaponry that I don't think makes any sense, and I also don't want to give up the orks' identity as having a significant numerical advantage over their opponents. A w2 ork boy would probably be a ~10pt model, compared to like a 13pt necron warrior it just doesn't seem like the armies would be distinct enough.

Nobs are currently W2 boyz, they wouldn't have to be T6. They could retain the same stat differential as now.

I can see the argument for giving orks 2 wounds but as you say I think it takes away form their identity a little too much and it's even further devaluing guardsmen back into being worth essentially nothing.

There are a lot more marine players then eldar players. You think that a sports school is going to invest the same money in to something like gymnastics and football. And more then half the people play w40k version of blue. In fact from what people working for GW been saying about the marine sells, they out sell whole other game systems GW has.

The problem with this is that it eventually becomes a self full-filling prophecy. Marines do sell more, and will likely always sell more, so marines get more. I don't think anyone has an issue with that. The problem starts to happen when marines get an unprecedented string of releases that happens steadily over the course of a few YEARS when armies like Eldar and DE get ... well ... pretty much nothing.

A new player walks into a LGS in 2020 and wants to start an army. He starts looking at Dark Eldar. What's he likely to hear? "Well, they haven't really been updated in years now. The game just kicked off 9th ed and their last major update was in 5th. Since then, they've only lost units with each codex release, and the current codex is a borderline incoherent mess ..."

Not only is all of that true, it's not even hyperbolic. So do you think that player is likely to pick them up? How different would it be if that player heard "Oh yeah, they got a major revamp in 5th and have had a nice little addition in each edition change since. Not quite as many as marines, but their characters are all fleshed out and cool, and the codex really shows off the different aspects of their army very well."


As for 2021 -

I'd be surprised if they did WE and EC. GW as a whole doesn't really know what to do with Slaanesh and probably wishes it could go away somehow and the people in the studio currently don't seem to look at WE as anything other than "Raaaaargh! KILLLLLLLLL" style berzerkers. They are still stuck in that "Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain" mode of thinking when it comes to CSM so I wouldn't hold out too much hope until the studio gets someone who can be a better advocate for Chaos than the current crop of designers.

I don't play Eldar, but I echo everyone else when I say it's about time for plastic aspect warriors. Would also like to see them fix Drukhari and make them a actual functioning army again.

Disinvestment cycles

lower poplation through lack of support --> even lower sales and population, aka cut costs in order to maintain earnings --> even lower support even less sales etc...

SoB are probably a premiere exemple.
GW failing to recognize that pattern is one half, the other half is, the ammount of investment to create a new marine unit will probably be massively cheaper simply through Digitalised files and placement on sprues for body parts alone then to make a whole new unit for say aspects which probably all still hail pre digital modeling.

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, do they? You can literally take an ork's head, slap it back on their neck and stitch it together and he survives. That's what they just did to ghazghkull.

It sure doesn't SEEM like physiologically an astartes is hardier. And honestly, it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense for orks to have blood period, their insides ought to be spongy fungal tissue.

The main reasoning I don't think T4 W2 is a good model for orks is because it introduces a weakness to D2 weaponry that I don't think makes any sense, and I also don't want to give up the orks' identity as having a significant numerical advantage over their opponents. A w2 ork boy would probably be a ~10pt model, compared to like a 13pt necron warrior it just doesn't seem like the armies would be distinct enough.

Nobs are currently W2 boyz, they wouldn't have to be T6. They could retain the same stat differential as now.

I can see the argument for giving orks 2 wounds but as you say I think it takes away form their identity a little too much and it's even further devaluing guardsmen back into being worth essentially nothing.

Don’t Orks have a strategy or something that allows you to bring a load of slain units back to life?

GW painted them selves into a corner. On the one hand they’ve made Orks out the be like these mega hulking fang toothed monsters that’s can tear your arms out your sockets but then they have also made out that they are a shambling group of moronic brutes who’s only real advantage is their numbers.

I think the coming back to life thing suits them but as SM have gone to 2 wounds Orks need something else. Either an extra wound or the ability for troop units to regenerate fallen soldiers every round as they self heal. Even if the unit is wiped out. Either that or they need a points drop so you can get even more on the table.

I also think 1 model in a ork troop Init should be able to evolve into a Nob if a HQ unit within 10 inches is killed, or something like that.

mrFickle wrote:
Don’t Orks have a strategy or something that allows you to bring a load of slain units back to life?

No. We have "Unstoppable Green tide" for 3CP -

Use this Stratagem at the end of your Movement phase. Select a unit of Boyz from your army that has less than half its starting number of models and remove it from the battlefield. You can then set it up again wholly within 6" of the edge of the battlefield and more than 9" from any enemy models, at its full starting strength. You cannot select a unit for this Stratagem that has been merged via the Mob Up Stratagem. You can only use this Stratagem once per battle.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:



I really don't think dual kits would do aspect warriors justice, the only thing they have in common is that they're aspect warriors and eldar, so they share the same bodies and then what? They're all unique in terms of weapons, runes, armour, helmets and other trinkets, a dual kit wouldn't actually be any good in preserving their flavour.

Regarding whether some armies need it more or not, Eldar do more than Orks and Guard. 15 year old plus sculpts that are still in finecast need it more.

Depends on how they do it, if you get partial legs/torsos that then get a different shin (think shin plates of full kit Aggressors) and chestplates etc. They can reduce the kit, while still making them fairly unique.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
I'm hopeful for EC finally getting their time in the sun. Years of hints aside, the impending Slaanesh mortals in AoS & Direchasm have me thinking that 2021 might finally be my year.

At the very least, give me some damn Noise Marines...

A plastic Noise Marine kit - plus the return of Doomrider! - is something that's definitely needed, even if an EC book isn't immediately forthcoming.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Other than that I'll put my foot on the Eldar bandwagon. Wouldn't be surprised to see them arriving at around the same time as EC. Absolutely no idea how they could handle the release though because Eldar need an absurd number of kits.

I suspect the sort of Eldar revamp that people think is needed is probably one that needs to be split over a couple of waves. Even just replacing the existing Finecast would be a big release, let alone adding new units.

I'm not sure whether I'd go for an Aspect wave and an "other Finecast" wave, or do part of each in each, admittedly. Either way, I'd have a plastic Shining Spears upgrade sprue near the top of the list, given how simple that should be (either with options for an Exarch on the sprue, or a clampack Exarch release.)

mrFickle wrote:

Don’t Orks have a strategy or something that allows you to bring a load of slain units back to life?

No, as usual you're thinking of Space Marines.

 vipoid wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Don’t Orks have a strategy or something that allows you to bring a load of slain units back to life?

No, as usual you're thinking of Space Marines.

As usual you're confusing space marines with necrons.

Apothecaries can revive 1 model.

 vipoid wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Don’t Orks have a strategy or something that allows you to bring a load of slain units back to life?

No, as usual you're thinking of Space Marines.

Yeah, marines are well known for their use of "Unstoppable green tide" /s

A plastic Noise Marine kit - plus the return of Doomrider! - is something that's definitely needed, even if an EC book isn't immediately forthcoming.

Ha! They've hinted that Doomrider is currently one of the exhibits in Trazyn's collection. Would be hilarious to see a story where he breaks out of his vault and just runs amok through the gallery! Plus, silly as Doomrider's concept is, they could probably do a pretty bad a@@ model of him with the current technology!

And yeah - I know I said I didn't think we'd see a EC book, but plastic Noise Marines would be good.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
I'm hopeful for EC finally getting their time in the sun. Years of hints aside, the impending Slaanesh mortals in AoS & Direchasm have me thinking that 2021 might finally be my year.

At the very least, give me some damn Noise Marines...

A plastic Noise Marine kit - plus the return of Doomrider! - is something that's definitely needed, even if an EC book isn't immediately forthcoming.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Other than that I'll put my foot on the Eldar bandwagon. Wouldn't be surprised to see them arriving at around the same time as EC. Absolutely no idea how they could handle the release though because Eldar need an absurd number of kits.

I suspect the sort of Eldar revamp that people think is needed is probably one that needs to be split over a couple of waves. Even just replacing the existing Finecast would be a big release, let alone adding new units.

I'm not sure whether I'd go for an Aspect wave and an "other Finecast" wave, or do part of each in each, admittedly. Either way, I'd have a plastic Shining Spears upgrade sprue near the top of the list, given how simple that should be (either with options for an Exarch on the sprue, or a clampack Exarch release.)

Again, only an unmanageably big release if you don't think about the fact that marines got 3 release waves that size or bigger since the launch of 8th.

surely "1/3 of the number of kits that the most up-to-date faction got over the course of 1 edition" after eldar havent had a major release since early 7th ed isn't so much to ask.

Tycho wrote:

A plastic Noise Marine kit - plus the return of Doomrider! - is something that's definitely needed, even if an EC book isn't immediately forthcoming.

Ha! They've hinted that Doomrider is currently one of the exhibits in Trazyn's collection. Would be hilarious to see a story where he breaks out of his vault and just runs amok through the gallery! Plus, silly as Doomrider's concept is, they could probably do a pretty bad a@@ model of him with the current technology!

And yeah - I know I said I didn't think we'd see a EC book, but plastic Noise Marines would be good.

Doomrider was "killed" & his still-living head taken by Kor'sarro Khan back to Chogoris in a 2014 Audio Drama - not that any past fiction would stop him coming back if GW decide to give him a new model. With the quality of all the recent CSM sculpts, a new Doomrider could be incredible

Dudeface wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Don’t Orks have a strategy or something that allows you to bring a load of slain units back to life?

No, as usual you're thinking of Space Marines.

As usual you're confusing space marines with necrons.

Apothecaries can revive 1 model.

1 model with fewer restrictions than any comparable Necrons unit. Go figure.

People say Eldar need an absurd number of new kits.

But Necrons have just got 18 new models/kits by my rough maths, including new characters, squads, vehicles etc .

Now an Eldar redo including new basic Guardians, all the Aspects and all the Phoenix Lords and a new Avatar comes out at 17 kits by my quick count.
Also assuming no dual kits etc.

Now thats under the number of new stuff Necrons just got!
It hardly seems unreasonable now.
Especially when Eldar need this redo way more than the Necrons did.

Tycho wrote:

A plastic Noise Marine kit - plus the return of Doomrider! - is something that's definitely needed, even if an EC book isn't immediately forthcoming.

Ha! They've hinted that Doomrider is currently one of the exhibits in Trazyn's collection. Would be hilarious to see a story where he breaks out of his vault and just runs amok through the gallery! Plus, silly as Doomrider's concept is, they could probably do a pretty bad a@@ model of him with the current technology!

And yeah - I know I said I didn't think we'd see a EC book, but plastic Noise Marines would be good.

Who is doom rider, is there a link?

An EC army would be easy to develop I’d have thought, lots of noise weapons.

The thing about Trazyns vault is that every thing is in there, even a clone of fulgrim which was mentioned in one of the recent necron adverts. I mean you could use that vault as an excuse to produce any unit.

There is a krork, thunder warriors, I bet there are ancient ones in there.

 dan2026 wrote:
Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

Maybe. Personally, I would welcome smaller, more powerful units for more points but it would definitely change the entire feel of the army. 2W marines "feel" right when you play with or against them, I doubt that orks would feel right.
That said, most infantry units orks have don't work because they cost, fight and shoot as much as marines, but have the durability of guardsmen, so 2 wounds might be the solution to that.

 vipoid wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Don’t Orks have a strategy or something that allows you to bring a load of slain units back to life?

No, as usual you're thinking of Space Marines.

As usual you're confusing space marines with necrons.

Apothecaries can revive 1 model.

1 model with fewer restrictions than any comparable Necrons unit. Go figure.

What are the comparable Necron units, and how do they operate with more restrictions?

Doomrider was "killed" & his still-living head taken by Kor'sarro Khan back to Chogoris in a 2014 Audio Drama - not that any past fiction would stop him coming back if GW decide to give him a new model. With the quality of all the recent CSM sculpts, a new Doomrider could be incredible

Interesting. I did not know that. The current 'Cron dex, in Trazyn's fluff section mentions an exhibit he calls "Doomrider's Folly" ...

Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

No imo. I can see giving nobz and Warbosses, etc an additional wound or two, but not the boys. The fluff says Orks are capable of living through horrendous damage and surviving, but if you read anything involving Orks - the boys die very easily. The basic frontline boy is the smallest/weakest for of Ork (until you go a level down to grots etc), and seems to be put down fairly easily by most basic weapons. I always read this as - if you get a painboy out to the field soon enough post-battle, he can probably save some boys that, were they human, would already be very dead, but that it's really the nobz and up that can take that kind of hit and actually remain combat effective.

 Dysartes wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Don’t Orks have a strategy or something that allows you to bring a load of slain units back to life?

No, as usual you're thinking of Space Marines.

As usual you're confusing space marines with necrons.

Apothecaries can revive 1 model.

1 model with fewer restrictions than any comparable Necrons unit. Go figure.

What are the comparable Necron units, and how do they operate with more restrictions?

I'll surmise this whole topic for you - Destroyers need a unit upgrade on a technomancer to be assured a revive but an apothecary can spend CP to revive an 8 wound ATV.

In short they're different resources and circumstances and I'd expect the ATV thing to be FAQ'd, so nothing to write home about. Marines 1-2 models revived a turn to theoretically most of a necron army, but one must marine bash where one can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

Doomrider was "killed" & his still-living head taken by Kor'sarro Khan back to Chogoris in a 2014 Audio Drama - not that any past fiction would stop him coming back if GW decide to give him a new model. With the quality of all the recent CSM sculpts, a new Doomrider could be incredible

Interesting. I did not know that. The current 'Cron dex, in Trazyn's fluff section mentions an exhibit he calls "Doomrider's Folly" ...

Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

No imo. I can see giving nobz and Warbosses, etc an additional wound or two, but not the boys. The fluff says Orks are capable of living through horrendous damage and surviving, but if you read anything involving Orks - the boys die very easily. The basic frontline boy is the smallest/weakest for of Ork (until you go a level down to grots etc), and seems to be put down fairly easily by most basic weapons. I always read this as - if you get a painboy out to the field soon enough post-battle, he can probably save some boys that, were they human, would already be very dead, but that it's really the nobz and up that can take that kind of hit and actually remain combat effective.

This is where I see the ork boyz, tougher yes, easy to patch up probably, but they're often noted to be killed by lasgun shots and mowed down by bolter fire whereas a marine takes a bolter round and keeps chugging a lot of the time.

Apothecary: 90pts+1CP
5A on the charge with an astartes chainsword
M6 T4 W4 Sv3+
Heals 2 models for 3 wounds, not CORE-limited
6" aura of non-CORE limited 6+FNP
Returns 1 model from any INFANTRY or BIKER unit within 3" each turn.

Technomancer with Cloak: 80pts
M10 T4 W4 Sv4+
A1 with an AP-2 melee weapon
Assault 3 S5 AP-2 D1 18" range shooting weapon
Returns 1 model from any CORE unit within 6" each turn, or D3 warriors
Heals 1 model within 3" for D3 wounds.

Honestly, other than the Necron CORE system sucking absolute donkey ass, the cryptek and Chief apothecary seem relatively comparable.

6+FNP on the apothecary is nice, sure, and if you happen to be within range of 2 units each with a wounded model you can heal twice, but the cryptek has a ranged attack which I'd say he's more likely to be able to actually safely use, he moves 4" faster with FLY, and the apothecary costs 10pts more and 1CP unless you figure you're going to resurrect so rarely you think you'll only use it once.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly, I think the whole revival thing for the apothecary is a side show. I'd just run him totally naked for the FNP. You only need to save like 4 wounds on average with the FNP to make his points back, and then you can spend 1cp to revive a biker or terminator and maybe heal a wound or two...

just on the fact that the Apoth has a more broadly useful passive defensive ability i think makes him a bit better than the cryptek.

Okay, so totally on the Eldar train.

If KT is used as a vehicle for Eldar, Scorpions will be the beneficiaries; they are they only KT Aspect not already in plastic.

A Vs. box with EC/ CWE would be totally appropriate, would kill 2 birds with one stone AND would stack with the KT Scorpions.

Ynarri could be solved by releasing BOTH Corsair and Exodite models. Rlease them with a Ynarri dex or supplement, but follow it with a WD dex for mono Exoditess and Mono Corsairs.

Declaring 2021 the year of the Aeldari, and upgrading EVERYTHING would be a dream- Imagine a couple new Harlies to make them feel like a real army (it would only take 1 or two new kits, especially if they had dual build capacity), all resin redone in plastic for ALL Aeldari, the afore mentioned Corsair + Exodite solution to the Ynarri problem PLUS the return of Blood Brides/ Trueborn and all the DE characters we've lost.

In this scenario, the VS box would have to be CWE vs DE to make it feasible.

BTW, Doomrider fans, have you seen the Wargames Exclusive Doomrider knock off? It's one of WGE's famous NSFW sculpts, so it isn't going to be up everyone's alley, but damn!

https://wargameexclusive.com/shop/chaos/chaos-lust-rider/

As for being locked into cartoon mode on Slaanesh, I think the Infernal Enrapturess is one of the edgiest models I've ever seen. I'm not sure whether it was a conscious choice or not, but there were some very high profile BDSM photos floating around the internet prior to the release of that model that explored the human harp body piercing trope. Obviously GW can't acknowledge the influence of said photos upon the design, but when I first saw the model, those photos came immediately to mind.

the_scotsman wrote:
Apothecary: 90pts+1CP
5A on the charge with an astartes chainsword
M6 T4 W4 Sv3+
Heals 2 models for 3 wounds, not CORE-limited
6" aura of non-CORE limited 6+FNP
Returns 1 model from any INFANTRY or BIKER unit within 3" each turn.

Technomancer with Cloak: 80pts
M10 T4 W4 Sv4+
A1 with an AP-2 melee weapon
Assault 3 S5 AP-2 D1 18" range shooting weapon
Returns 1 model from any CORE unit within 6" each turn, or D3 warriors
Heals 1 model within 3" for D3 wounds.

Honestly, other than the Necron CORE system sucking absolute donkey ass, the cryptek and Chief apothecary seem relatively comparable.

I take it we're ignoring the fact that Apothecaries have a Stratagem to resurrect units, whilst Crypteks that want to bring back anything other than the minute selection of Core necron units have to pay for an artefact, which even then only be used once per game.

But I tell you what, let's ignore that (along with the ability of the Apothecary to revive a sodding vehicle) and just say for the sake of argument that the Apothecary and Technomancer are exactly equal in their ability to revive dead units.

Care to tell me why Space Marines should be at least as good at Necrons at reviving dead units?

 vipoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Apothecary: 90pts+1CP
5A on the charge with an astartes chainsword
M6 T4 W4 Sv3+
Heals 2 models for 3 wounds, not CORE-limited
6" aura of non-CORE limited 6+FNP
Returns 1 model from any INFANTRY or BIKER unit within 3" each turn.

Technomancer with Cloak: 80pts
M10 T4 W4 Sv4+
A1 with an AP-2 melee weapon
Assault 3 S5 AP-2 D1 18" range shooting weapon
Returns 1 model from any CORE unit within 6" each turn, or D3 warriors
Heals 1 model within 3" for D3 wounds.

Honestly, other than the Necron CORE system sucking absolute donkey ass, the cryptek and Chief apothecary seem relatively comparable.

I take it we're ignoring the fact that Apothecaries have a Stratagem to resurrect units, whilst Crypteks that want to bring back anything other than the minute selection of Core necron units have to pay for an artefact, which even then only be used once per game.

But I tell you what, let's ignore that (along with the ability of the Apothecary to revive a sodding vehicle) and just say for the sake of argument that the Apothecary and Technomancer are exactly equal in their ability to revive dead units.

Care to tell me why Space Marines should be at least as good at Necrons at reviving dead units?

Because the necron units all revive themselves on their own? An apothecary can spend 1cp to revive one model a turn, the cryptek can revive models for free and their units revive multiple models on their own.

Have an army fire at marines then at necrons for 3 turns, tell me how many models could have been brought back from the dead for both.

 vipoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Apothecary: 90pts+1CP
5A on the charge with an astartes chainsword
M6 T4 W4 Sv3+
Heals 2 models for 3 wounds, not CORE-limited
6" aura of non-CORE limited 6+FNP
Returns 1 model from any INFANTRY or BIKER unit within 3" each turn.

Technomancer with Cloak: 80pts
M10 T4 W4 Sv4+
A1 with an AP-2 melee weapon
Assault 3 S5 AP-2 D1 18" range shooting weapon
Returns 1 model from any CORE unit within 6" each turn, or D3 warriors
Heals 1 model within 3" for D3 wounds.

Honestly, other than the Necron CORE system sucking absolute donkey ass, the cryptek and Chief apothecary seem relatively comparable.

I take it we're ignoring the fact that Apothecaries have a Stratagem to resurrect units, whilst Crypteks that want to bring back anything other than the minute selection of Core necron units have to pay for an artefact, which even then only be used once per game.

But I tell you what, let's ignore that (along with the ability of the Apothecary to revive a sodding vehicle) and just say for the sake of argument that the Apothecary and Technomancer are exactly equal in their ability to revive dead units.

Care to tell me why Space Marines should be at least as good at Necrons at reviving dead units?

no, because you're just getting emotionally angry and asking a leading question.

Necrons resurrect themselves as a passive ability. Most of their HQs can take a 30-point item that allows them to attempt to resurrect all currently dead models in a given unit. Their dedicated transport resurrects models. Spyders resurrect scarabs. They can use a stratagem to resurrect their dead characters. And then you've got this slotless HQ that resurrects and repairs models.

The space marine chief apothecary is indeed freer to choose targets in its particular version of the targeted single model resurrect ability. If you put on your hyper-blinders and compare JUST THAT ONE ABILITY to JUST THAT OTHER ABILITY and ignore everything else...then yeah. Sure. Fine. The apothecary's ability can bring back more expensive biker models like, in theory, assuming it doesn't get 2-week FAQ'ed, the new spacemario kart.

I think it is fair to point out that the ability is a stratagem, so unless you're willing to pay CP and 15pts up front, it costs a CP every time. And regardless, it is limited to one use per turn, wheras theoretically you could have multiple cryptek/ghost ark resurrections in a turn. You can take as many crypteks/ghost arks as you want, and you can also use Repair Barge and Rites of Reanimation on the same warrior squad to bring back 2d3 if you want. The cryptek can also use a 1cp stratagem to use the ability twice if he wants.

There are pros and cons for both models. Both are models that need to be 3" away to do their stuff, and the cryptek being 10" move with fly vs 6" move with no fly makes a difference there. The cryptek's heal can also target vehicle models, which the apothecary cannot do. The apothecary also can't have a +1 to hit aura.

As a repair/support unit, I think the apothecary, regular with no upgrade, is better than the cryptek with the 5 point cloak overall. That's almost entirely on the fact that he has a passive means of making his points back in the FNP, which always works regardless of whether you keep a unit alive for him to resurrect to or a model alive for him to heal. I think we've all played enough Iron Hands at this point to know that a 6++ FNP makes W2 marines a lot more obnoxious to target with flat 2 damage weaponry.

But the statement "space marines are at least as good as necrons at reviving dead units" is fething asinine. A space marine army, any space marine army, can revive AT MAXIMUM ONE SINGLE MODEL per turn.ONE. you could be playing a five billion point game and you'd get to resurrect 1 model. Necrons have resurrection coming out of every goddamn orifice.

Ah yes, I forgot, Marines getting the once-defining qualities of other armies and being able to do it better is just fine. Because Mhureens.

 vipoid wrote:
Ah yes, I forgot, Marines getting the once-defining qualities of other armies and being able to do it better is just fine. Because Mhureens.

Except... they didn't.

Savage Orks have 2 wounds in age of sigmar and they still feel hordy enough.

 Galas wrote:
Savage Orks have 2 wounds in age of sigmar and they still feel hordy enough.

Orks being 2 wounds but with crap armour just feels right to me.
Do I think it will actually happen? No probably not.
But it would be cool.

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, do they? You can literally take an ork's head, slap it back on their neck and stitch it together and he survives. That's what they just did to ghazghkull.

It sure doesn't SEEM like physiologically an astartes is hardier. And honestly, it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense for orks to have blood period, their insides ought to be spongy fungal tissue.

The main reasoning I don't think T4 W2 is a good model for orks is because it introduces a weakness to D2 weaponry that I don't think makes any sense, and I also don't want to give up the orks' identity as having a significant numerical advantage over their opponents. A w2 ork boy would probably be a ~10pt model, compared to like a 13pt necron warrior it just doesn't seem like the armies would be distinct enough.

Nobs are currently W2 boyz, they wouldn't have to be T6. They could retain the same stat differential as now.

the "they can survive losing a head" argument I always thought was an odd one, given that casualty =/ killed in the game.

I agree COMPLETELY though that 2w ork boyz would be a problem from an army identiy POV though. it's why I've long argued that I'd rather see Nobz as troops then see Ork Boyz given a second wound

Who is doom rider, is there a link?

@mrFickle - I don't have a link handy but Doomrider was a Demon Prince in the 3rd ed CSM book. Think "Marvel Comics Ghost Rider" but with more ... drugs ...

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/b/b9/Doomrider.jpg

 dan2026 wrote:
Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

I'd rather Orkz go to T5 honestly, 2W hordes seem silly to me. T5 makes them significantly more durable vs most damage but still go down to a single wound getting through their 6+ save armor. Conversely I wouldn't mind them getting rid of 6+ armor entirely and switching it to 6+ FNP which a dok can buff to 5+ by being near him, than snakebites could get this to a 4+ with their Klan trait, this provides some fluff and actually makes snakebites....good. (Weird right?)

The reason I don't want 2 wounds besides the fact that it would be a bit silly in a horde, is because honestly it wouldn't increase their toughness all that much, especially when I can almost guarantee GW won't price them correctly. Marines got a 2nd wound for 3pts, I will bet you they price ork boyz 2nd wound at 3pts or more, which would make them 11-14pts per model, and thereby kill any chance of them being a "horde". It already feels wrong that a 30 mob of boyz is 240pts, 7th edition they were meh at best and they were 180pts.

 Jidmah wrote:

Maybe. Personally, I would welcome smaller, more powerful units for more points but it would definitely change the entire feel of the army. 2W marines "feel" right when you play with or against them, I doubt that orks would feel right.
That said, most infantry units orks have don't work because they cost, fight and shoot as much as marines, but have the durability of guardsmen, so 2 wounds might be the solution to that.

Exactly....except the shoot part. A Tac Marine is now 5ish times more durable than an Ork boy. Takes 12 bolter HITS to kill 1 Tac Marine where as it takes 2.3 to kill a Boy, Shooting wise, those Tac Marines have 6' more distance and shoot AS much as a shoota boy, except the shoota hits on 5s where as the tac hits on 3s. I think upping Shoota's to 3 shots each would be a step in the right direction. As far as fighting, -1AP to choppas fixes a lot of those issues.

Tycho wrote:

No imo. I can see giving nobz and Warbosses, etc an additional wound or two, but not the boys. The fluff says Orks are capable of living through horrendous damage and surviving, but if you read anything involving Orks - the boys die very easily. The basic frontline boy is the smallest/weakest for of Ork (until you go a level down to grots etc), and seems to be put down fairly easily by most basic weapons. I always read this as - if you get a painboy out to the field soon enough post-battle, he can probably save some boys that, were they human, would already be very dead, but that it's really the nobz and up that can take that kind of hit and actually remain combat effective.

Ghaz was an Ork boy when he got blasted in the head by a bolter. He lived LOL. He was carried off the field of battle and back to the Ork camp where he was fixed by Mad Dok which made him into the Beast that he is today. Fluff wise there are dozens of stories where an ork loses a Limb and is only mildly inconvenienced by it, there's stories where an ork is cut in half and keeps fighting, there are other stories where an ork gets his head blown off and the body keeps fighting until put down. So I don't know what fluff you are reading but it completely contradicts the stories I have read.

the_scotsman wrote:
Apothecary: 90pts+1CP
5A on the charge with an astartes chainsword
M6 T4 W4 Sv3+
Heals 2 models for 3 wounds, not CORE-limited
6" aura of non-CORE limited 6+FNP
Returns 1 model from any INFANTRY or BIKER unit within 3" each turn.

Technomancer with Cloak: 80pts
M10 T4 W4 Sv4+
A1 with an AP-2 melee weapon
Assault 3 S5 AP-2 D1 18" range shooting weapon
Returns 1 model from any CORE unit within 6" each turn, or D3 warriors
Heals 1 model within 3" for D3 wounds.

Honestly, other than the Necron CORE system sucking absolute donkey ass, the cryptek and Chief apothecary seem relatively comparable.

6+FNP on the apothecary is nice, sure, and if you happen to be within range of 2 units each with a wounded model you can heal twice, but the cryptek has a ranged attack which I'd say he's more likely to be able to actually safely use, he moves 4" faster with FLY, and the apothecary costs 10pts more and 1CP unless you figure you're going to resurrect so rarely you think you'll only use it once.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly, I think the whole revival thing for the apothecary is a side show. I'd just run him totally naked for the FNP. You only need to save like 4 wounds on average with the FNP to make his points back, and then you can spend 1cp to revive a biker or terminator and maybe heal a wound or two...

just on the fact that the Apoth has a more broadly useful passive defensive ability i think makes him a bit better than the cryptek.

Just wanted to take a moment and compare this to an Ork Painboy.

M5 T4 W4 Sv6+
4 Attacks with a Powerklaw
No ranged weapon
Heals wounded infantry/warbikes units within 3' of himself on a 6+ and can heal up to D3 wounds on a roll of 2+. If you roll a 1 he actually inflicts a mortal wound on the intended target. All for 65pts

So slowest by far, least durable by far, healing is on par with them somewhat and has a PK which is nice but you never want to use it because hes a buffing character not a CC beat stick.

To earn its points back that Apothecary has to save 5 bog standard SM's that is it. To make its points back the Painboy needs to save 8-9 Ork boyz. Given its pathetically weak armor save and slow movement teamed with a useless weapon in the form of a PK I think a Painboy should be closer to 40pts not 65.

SemperMortis wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

I'd rather Orkz go to T5 honestly, 2W hordes seem silly to me. T5 makes them significantly more durable vs most damage but still go down to a single wound getting through their 6+ save armor. Conversely I wouldn't mind them getting rid of 6+ armor entirely and switching it to 6+ FNP which a dok can buff to 5+ by being near him, than snakebites could get this to a 4+ with their Klan trait, this provides some fluff and actually makes snakebites....good. (Weird right?)

The reason I don't want 2 wounds besides the fact that it would be a bit silly in a horde, is because honestly it wouldn't increase their toughness all that much, especially when I can almost guarantee GW won't price them correctly. Marines got a 2nd wound for 3pts, I will bet you they price ork boyz 2nd wound at 3pts or more, which would make them 11-14pts per model, and thereby kill any chance of them being a "horde". It already feels wrong that a 30 mob of boyz is 240pts, 7th edition they were meh at best and they were 180pts.

 Jidmah wrote:

Maybe. Personally, I would welcome smaller, more powerful units for more points but it would definitely change the entire feel of the army. 2W marines "feel" right when you play with or against them, I doubt that orks would feel right.
That said, most infantry units orks have don't work because they cost, fight and shoot as much as marines, but have the durability of guardsmen, so 2 wounds might be the solution to that.

Exactly....except the shoot part. A Tac Marine is now 5ish times more durable than an Ork boy. Takes 12 bolter HITS to kill 1 Tac Marine where as it takes 2.3 to kill a Boy, Shooting wise, those Tac Marines have 6' more distance and shoot AS much as a shoota boy, except the shoota hits on 5s where as the tac hits on 3s. I think upping Shoota's to 3 shots each would be a step in the right direction. As far as fighting, -1AP to choppas fixes a lot of those issues.

Tycho wrote:

No imo. I can see giving nobz and Warbosses, etc an additional wound or two, but not the boys. The fluff says Orks are capable of living through horrendous damage and surviving, but if you read anything involving Orks - the boys die very easily. The basic frontline boy is the smallest/weakest for of Ork (until you go a level down to grots etc), and seems to be put down fairly easily by most basic weapons. I always read this as - if you get a painboy out to the field soon enough post-battle, he can probably save some boys that, were they human, would already be very dead, but that it's really the nobz and up that can take that kind of hit and actually remain combat effective.

Ghaz was an Ork boy when he got blasted in the head by a bolter. He lived LOL. He was carried off the field of battle and back to the Ork camp where he was fixed by Mad Dok which made him into the Beast that he is today. Fluff wise there are dozens of stories where an ork loses a Limb and is only mildly inconvenienced by it, there's stories where an ork is cut in half and keeps fighting, there are other stories where an ork gets his head blown off and the body keeps fighting until put down. So I don't know what fluff you are reading but it completely contradicts the stories I have read.

the_scotsman wrote:
Apothecary: 90pts+1CP
5A on the charge with an astartes chainsword
M6 T4 W4 Sv3+
Heals 2 models for 3 wounds, not CORE-limited
6" aura of non-CORE limited 6+FNP
Returns 1 model from any INFANTRY or BIKER unit within 3" each turn.

Technomancer with Cloak: 80pts
M10 T4 W4 Sv4+
A1 with an AP-2 melee weapon
Assault 3 S5 AP-2 D1 18" range shooting weapon
Returns 1 model from any CORE unit within 6" each turn, or D3 warriors
Heals 1 model within 3" for D3 wounds.

Honestly, other than the Necron CORE system sucking absolute donkey ass, the cryptek and Chief apothecary seem relatively comparable.

6+FNP on the apothecary is nice, sure, and if you happen to be within range of 2 units each with a wounded model you can heal twice, but the cryptek has a ranged attack which I'd say he's more likely to be able to actually safely use, he moves 4" faster with FLY, and the apothecary costs 10pts more and 1CP unless you figure you're going to resurrect so rarely you think you'll only use it once.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly, I think the whole revival thing for the apothecary is a side show. I'd just run him totally naked for the FNP. You only need to save like 4 wounds on average with the FNP to make his points back, and then you can spend 1cp to revive a biker or terminator and maybe heal a wound or two...

just on the fact that the Apoth has a more broadly useful passive defensive ability i think makes him a bit better than the cryptek.

Just wanted to take a moment and compare this to an Ork Painboy.

M5 T4 W4 Sv6+
4 Attacks with a Powerklaw
No ranged weapon
Heals wounded infantry/warbikes units within 3' of himself on a 6+ and can heal up to D3 wounds on a roll of 2+. If you roll a 1 he actually inflicts a mortal wound on the intended target. All for 65pts

So slowest by far, least durable by far, healing is on par with them somewhat and has a PK which is nice but you never want to use it because hes a buffing character not a CC beat stick.

To earn its points back that Apothecary has to save 5 bog standard SM's that is it. To make its points back the Painboy needs to save 8-9 Ork boyz. Given its pathetically weak armor save and slow movement teamed with a useless weapon in the form of a PK I think a Painboy should be closer to 40pts not 65.

The debate over technomancers vs apothecaries was the ability to raise dead models, so I don't think the painboy can compete in this weight bracket sadly.

Ghaz was an Ork boy when he got blasted in the head by a bolter. He lived LOL. He was carried off the field of battle and back to the Ork camp where he was fixed by Mad Dok which made him into the Beast that he is today. Fluff wise there are dozens of stories where an ork loses a Limb and is only mildly inconvenienced by it, there's stories where an ork is cut in half and keeps fighting, there are other stories where an ork gets his head blown off and the body keeps fighting until put down. So I don't know what fluff you are reading but it completely contradicts the stories I have read.

Right - exactly. The Ghaz story proves what I'm saying. Ghaz lived but could NOT continue the fight. He had to be carried off. That's the whole point. An Ork can live through horrendous damage, but that damage DOES render them combat ineffective in the moment. And that's what counts for the rules of the game. Yeah, an ork can theoretically survive having its head removed - but it cannot continue to fight when that happens. I've never read a story where an Ork literally has its head removed and keeps fighting. lol Maybe a last spasm, but not actually fighting. How would that even happen?

And there are numerous stories of wave after wave of Ork boys being put down by massed las-rifle fire. One of the weakest guns in the whole game. In one of the more recent books (Blood of Iax I think it is), Guardsman hold a massive Waaaagh at bay for an extended period of time with nothing but las-rifles and the support of a Chaplain, and a squad or two of Primaris. The basic boys absolutely die in droves. Easily. A single Repulsor actually kills hundreds of boys before it's eventually captured. Yes, the basic boy can LIVE having received unbelievably traumatic damage ... but more often that not, he cannot fight with that damage.

T5 on a basic boy is probably the most I would do tbh. They actually aren't that tough in actual practice. They just aren't. The most realistic thing might be to give them an advantage in survivability and battle scars in the Crusade system. Because that's where a basic boy's toughness really comes into play - living through the damage that stopped him fighting. That said, Nobz and Warbosses probably do need to be tougher. More wounds or a FnP maybe ...

Tycho wrote:

Ghaz was an Ork boy when he got blasted in the head by a bolter. He lived LOL. He was carried off the field of battle and back to the Ork camp where he was fixed by Mad Dok which made him into the Beast that he is today. Fluff wise there are dozens of stories where an ork loses a Limb and is only mildly inconvenienced by it, there's stories where an ork is cut in half and keeps fighting, there are other stories where an ork gets his head blown off and the body keeps fighting until put down. So I don't know what fluff you are reading but it completely contradicts the stories I have read.

Right - exactly. The Ghaz story proves what I'm saying. Ghaz lived but could NOT continue the fight. He had to be carried off. That's the whole point. An Ork can live through horrendous damage, but that damage DOES render them combat ineffective in the moment. And that's what counts for the rules of the game. Yeah, an ork can theoretically survive having its head removed - but it cannot continue to fight when that happens. I've never read a story where an Ork literally has its head removed and keeps fighting. lol Maybe a last spasm, but not actually fighting. How would that even happen?

And there are numerous stories of wave after wave of Ork boys being put down by massed las-rifle fire. One of the weakest guns in the whole game. In one of the more recent books (Blood of Iax I think it is), Guardsman hold a massive Waaaagh at bay for an extended period of time with nothing but las-rifles and the support of a Chaplain, and a squad or two of Primaris. The basic boys absolutely die in droves. Easily. A single Repulsor actually kills hundreds of boys before it's eventually captured. Yes, the basic boy can LIVE having received unbelievably traumatic damage ... but more often that not, he cannot fight with that damage.

T5 on a basic boy is probably the most I would do tbh. They actually aren't that tough in actual practice. They just aren't. The most realistic thing might be to give them an advantage in survivability and battle scars in the Crusade system. Because that's where a basic boy's toughness really comes into play - living through the damage that stopped him fighting. That said, Nobz and Warbosses probably do need to be tougher. More wounds or a FnP maybe ...

I suggest you go read more fluff than lol. In the Commissar Cain series, he constantly mentions how ridiculously tough Orkz are. And I believe in one of his books he mentions how they chopped the head off an ork and it was still swinging at him until he knocked it down.

But lets take it back from the worst possible dmg, IE headshots removing heads etc and realize that most wounds would be body shots and losing a limb, and orkz are in the fluff constantly taking shots like this and shrugging it off as if its nothing.

As far as the other half of the fluff goes, where 10 Marines and a pineapple manage to kill half a billion orkz? Well, you can't have the heroes of the game dying to NPCs can we? Reasonably sure we've had a nice long debate on Space Marines being OP as all hell in the fluff. A single Tac Marine took on an entire Dark Eldar Raiding party in "Brothers of the Snake" book by Dan Abnett.

Regardless of how tough Orks are in the fluff, tracking wounds on a blob of 30 3W minis is impractical.

I suggest you go read more fluff than lol. In the Commissar Cain series, he constantly mentions how ridiculously tough Orkz are. And I believe in one of his books he mentions how they chopped the head off an ork and it was still swinging at him until he knocked it down.

Read 'em. Yes it "kept swinging" but it wasn't actually combat effective was it? No. And in those same books - what often brings down masses of boyz? Las-rifles ... the worst gun in the game.

But lets take it back from the worst possible dmg, IE headshots removing heads etc and realize that most wounds would be body shots and losing a limb, and orkz are in the fluff constantly taking shots like this and shrugging it off as if its nothing.

Sometimes yes, and sometimes no, but if you have to go that far into the weeds to justify it, it's probably not something that should be reflected in the rules. Although again, I will say Bosses and Nobz are probably too weak atm.

As far as the other half of the fluff goes, where 10 Marines and a pineapple manage to kill half a billion orkz? Well, you can't have the heroes of the game dying to NPCs can we? Reasonably sure we've had a nice long debate on Space Marines being OP as all hell in the fluff. A single Tac Marine took on an entire Dark Eldar Raiding party in "Brothers of the Snake" book by Dan Abnett.

Yes, and yet, the fluff is consistent with Orks. Masses of boyz are tough if they get in close because they hit hard and have many attacks but those same masses are brought down by the score using ... pretty much ANY ranged weapon ...

SemperMortis wrote:

Tycho wrote:

Ghaz was an Ork boy when he got blasted in the head by a bolter. He lived LOL. He was carried off the field of battle and back to the Ork camp where he was fixed by Mad Dok which made him into the Beast that he is today. Fluff wise there are dozens of stories where an ork loses a Limb and is only mildly inconvenienced by it, there's stories where an ork is cut in half and keeps fighting, there are other stories where an ork gets his head blown off and the body keeps fighting until put down. So I don't know what fluff you are reading but it completely contradicts the stories I have read.

Right - exactly. The Ghaz story proves what I'm saying. Ghaz lived but could NOT continue the fight. He had to be carried off. That's the whole point. An Ork can live through horrendous damage, but that damage DOES render them combat ineffective in the moment. And that's what counts for the rules of the game. Yeah, an ork can theoretically survive having its head removed - but it cannot continue to fight when that happens. I've never read a story where an Ork literally has its head removed and keeps fighting. lol Maybe a last spasm, but not actually fighting. How would that even happen?

And there are numerous stories of wave after wave of Ork boys being put down by massed las-rifle fire. One of the weakest guns in the whole game. In one of the more recent books (Blood of Iax I think it is), Guardsman hold a massive Waaaagh at bay for an extended period of time with nothing but las-rifles and the support of a Chaplain, and a squad or two of Primaris. The basic boys absolutely die in droves. Easily. A single Repulsor actually kills hundreds of boys before it's eventually captured. Yes, the basic boy can LIVE having received unbelievably traumatic damage ... but more often that not, he cannot fight with that damage.

T5 on a basic boy is probably the most I would do tbh. They actually aren't that tough in actual practice. They just aren't. The most realistic thing might be to give them an advantage in survivability and battle scars in the Crusade system. Because that's where a basic boy's toughness really comes into play - living through the damage that stopped him fighting. That said, Nobz and Warbosses probably do need to be tougher. More wounds or a FnP maybe ...

I suggest you go read more fluff than lol. In the Commissar Cain series, he constantly mentions how ridiculously tough Orkz are. And I believe in one of his books he mentions how they chopped the head off an ork and it was still swinging at him until he knocked it down.

But lets take it back from the worst possible dmg, IE headshots removing heads etc and realize that most wounds would be body shots and losing a limb, and orkz are in the fluff constantly taking shots like this and shrugging it off as if its nothing.

As far as the other half of the fluff goes, where 10 Marines and a pineapple manage to kill half a billion orkz? Well, you can't have the heroes of the game dying to NPCs can we? Reasonably sure we've had a nice long debate on Space Marines being OP as all hell in the fluff. A single Tac Marine took on an entire Dark Eldar Raiding party in "Brothers of the Snake" book by Dan Abnett.

This the same commisar cain who defeats ork encampments with civilians and military dregs armed with lasguns from memory on one of his first missions? Been a while since I read it but pretty sure they took down a load of orks and stole some vehicles armed with nothing but small arms and surprise.

Blastaar wrote:
Regardless of how tough Orks are in the fluff, tracking wounds on a blob of 30 3W minis is impractical.

Not really? It would never be more than one dice.

The whole point would be lowering model count by doubling the wounds though, so orks would max out 15 oder maybe 20 instead of 30.

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

SemperMortis wrote:

Tycho wrote:

Ghaz was an Ork boy when he got blasted in the head by a bolter. He lived LOL. He was carried off the field of battle and back to the Ork camp where he was fixed by Mad Dok which made him into the Beast that he is today. Fluff wise there are dozens of stories where an ork loses a Limb and is only mildly inconvenienced by it, there's stories where an ork is cut in half and keeps fighting, there are other stories where an ork gets his head blown off and the body keeps fighting until put down. So I don't know what fluff you are reading but it completely contradicts the stories I have read.

Right - exactly. The Ghaz story proves what I'm saying. Ghaz lived but could NOT continue the fight. He had to be carried off. That's the whole point. An Ork can live through horrendous damage, but that damage DOES render them combat ineffective in the moment. And that's what counts for the rules of the game. Yeah, an ork can theoretically survive having its head removed - but it cannot continue to fight when that happens. I've never read a story where an Ork literally has its head removed and keeps fighting. lol Maybe a last spasm, but not actually fighting. How would that even happen?

And there are numerous stories of wave after wave of Ork boys being put down by massed las-rifle fire. One of the weakest guns in the whole game. In one of the more recent books (Blood of Iax I think it is), Guardsman hold a massive Waaaagh at bay for an extended period of time with nothing but las-rifles and the support of a Chaplain, and a squad or two of Primaris. The basic boys absolutely die in droves. Easily. A single Repulsor actually kills hundreds of boys before it's eventually captured. Yes, the basic boy can LIVE having received unbelievably traumatic damage ... but more often that not, he cannot fight with that damage.

T5 on a basic boy is probably the most I would do tbh. They actually aren't that tough in actual practice. They just aren't. The most realistic thing might be to give them an advantage in survivability and battle scars in the Crusade system. Because that's where a basic boy's toughness really comes into play - living through the damage that stopped him fighting. That said, Nobz and Warbosses probably do need to be tougher. More wounds or a FnP maybe ...

I suggest you go read more fluff than lol. In the Commissar Cain series, he constantly mentions how ridiculously tough Orkz are. And I believe in one of his books he mentions how they chopped the head off an ork and it was still swinging at him until he knocked it down.

But lets take it back from the worst possible dmg, IE headshots removing heads etc and realize that most wounds would be body shots and losing a limb, and orkz are in the fluff constantly taking shots like this and shrugging it off as if its nothing.

As far as the other half of the fluff goes, where 10 Marines and a pineapple manage to kill half a billion orkz? Well, you can't have the heroes of the game dying to NPCs can we? Reasonably sure we've had a nice long debate on Space Marines being OP as all hell in the fluff. A single Tac Marine took on an entire Dark Eldar Raiding party in "Brothers of the Snake" book by Dan Abnett.

This the same commisar cain who defeats ork encampments with civilians and military dregs armed with lasguns from memory on one of his first missions? Been a while since I read it but pretty sure they took down a load of orks and stole some vehicles armed with nothing but small arms and surprise.

And exploding fuel depots, dams and other desperate environmental shenanigans. The 'military dregs' also link up with other elements really fast, and get hold of a well-supplied ammo dump early on, with a Russ, multiple chimeras and missile launchers (actually they have one of the latter for the first attack)

But there are loads of instances in the Cain books where orks were shot or even dismembered but get back up and keep attacking.

Voss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

SemperMortis wrote:

Tycho wrote:

Ghaz was an Ork boy when he got blasted in the head by a bolter. He lived LOL. He was carried off the field of battle and back to the Ork camp where he was fixed by Mad Dok which made him into the Beast that he is today. Fluff wise there are dozens of stories where an ork loses a Limb and is only mildly inconvenienced by it, there's stories where an ork is cut in half and keeps fighting, there are other stories where an ork gets his head blown off and the body keeps fighting until put down. So I don't know what fluff you are reading but it completely contradicts the stories I have read.

Right - exactly. The Ghaz story proves what I'm saying. Ghaz lived but could NOT continue the fight. He had to be carried off. That's the whole point. An Ork can live through horrendous damage, but that damage DOES render them combat ineffective in the moment. And that's what counts for the rules of the game. Yeah, an ork can theoretically survive having its head removed - but it cannot continue to fight when that happens. I've never read a story where an Ork literally has its head removed and keeps fighting. lol Maybe a last spasm, but not actually fighting. How would that even happen?

And there are numerous stories of wave after wave of Ork boys being put down by massed las-rifle fire. One of the weakest guns in the whole game. In one of the more recent books (Blood of Iax I think it is), Guardsman hold a massive Waaaagh at bay for an extended period of time with nothing but las-rifles and the support of a Chaplain, and a squad or two of Primaris. The basic boys absolutely die in droves. Easily. A single Repulsor actually kills hundreds of boys before it's eventually captured. Yes, the basic boy can LIVE having received unbelievably traumatic damage ... but more often that not, he cannot fight with that damage.

T5 on a basic boy is probably the most I would do tbh. They actually aren't that tough in actual practice. They just aren't. The most realistic thing might be to give them an advantage in survivability and battle scars in the Crusade system. Because that's where a basic boy's toughness really comes into play - living through the damage that stopped him fighting. That said, Nobz and Warbosses probably do need to be tougher. More wounds or a FnP maybe ...

I suggest you go read more fluff than lol. In the Commissar Cain series, he constantly mentions how ridiculously tough Orkz are. And I believe in one of his books he mentions how they chopped the head off an ork and it was still swinging at him until he knocked it down.

But lets take it back from the worst possible dmg, IE headshots removing heads etc and realize that most wounds would be body shots and losing a limb, and orkz are in the fluff constantly taking shots like this and shrugging it off as if its nothing.

As far as the other half of the fluff goes, where 10 Marines and a pineapple manage to kill half a billion orkz? Well, you can't have the heroes of the game dying to NPCs can we? Reasonably sure we've had a nice long debate on Space Marines being OP as all hell in the fluff. A single Tac Marine took on an entire Dark Eldar Raiding party in "Brothers of the Snake" book by Dan Abnett.

This the same commisar cain who defeats ork encampments with civilians and military dregs armed with lasguns from memory on one of his first missions? Been a while since I read it but pretty sure they took down a load of orks and stole some vehicles armed with nothing but small arms and surprise.

And exploding fuel depots, dams and other desperate environmental shenanigans. The 'military dregs' also link up with other elements really fast, and get hold of a well-supplied ammo dump early on, with a Russ, multiple chimeras and missile launchers (actually they have one of the latter for the first attack)

But there are loads of instances in the Cain books where orks were shot or even dismembered but get back up and keep attacking.

Interesting point this train of thought led me to, I'm sure earlier tau codex entries used to say that kroot were a match for orks in a fight more or less, how would that factor into the 2w orks? 2w kroot?

If anything Orks should have some FNP saves. Something like a 6+ FNP for Boyz equivalents and maybe a 5+ FNP for Nob equivalents. Wound bloat is already got excessive in 8th/9th.

I think we all know what we will get in 2021 but yet we hope..

Dudeface wrote:

Interesting point this train of thought led me to, I'm sure earlier tau codex entries used to say that kroot were a match for orks in a fight more or less, how would that factor into the 2w orks? 2w kroot?

Honestly don't care, because that's never actually been true.
Toughness isn't their hallmark regardless.

 Vankraken wrote:
If anything Orks should have some FNP saves. Something like a 6+ FNP for Boyz equivalents and maybe a 5+ FNP for Nob equivalents. Wound bloat is already got excessive in 8th/9th.

No thank you. The amount of extra dice rolling would slow the game down even more than moving the big blobs does.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
If anything Orks should have some FNP saves. Something like a 6+ FNP for Boyz equivalents and maybe a 5+ FNP for Nob equivalents. Wound bloat is already got excessive in 8th/9th.

No thank you. The amount of extra dice rolling would slow the game down even more than moving the big blobs does.

As if Dakka x 3 wasn't bad enough and couldn't be shortcut by BS 4 + ....
Grumbles in ancient ork

My prediction is that SM will continue to rule the 40k universe.
GW will manage to bring out all 40k codices in 2021 eventually including a new faction.

Not Online!!! wrote:
As if Dakka x 3 wasn't bad enough and couldn't be shortcut by BS 4 + ....
Grumbles in ancient ork

Nooo! Shooting once and hitting twice is one of the best parts of playing orks

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
As if Dakka x 3 wasn't bad enough and couldn't be shortcut by BS 4 + ....
Grumbles in ancient ork

Nooo! Shooting once and hitting twice is one of the best parts of playing orks

Shhh, the oldz talkin, ok jokes aside, for some weapons it's just moronic, it would slightly increase ork shooting peformance, slightly i believe about 5 % so it would be a buff overall and alot less swingy randumb... Much less time consuming aswell.

Swingy randumb has been part of the ork identity since ever. The only difference is that this once it has been done properly.

As long as it's not combined with the bad moons trait, dakka³ doesn't take up that much game time anyways and orks have no real access to re-rolls otherwise.

Ork boyz at 2w and 9-10ppm feel fine to me. They would still die to a breeze but ey they would be a little meaty. And it would be much more faster than adding things like FNP (seriously people are you suggesting FNP of 4+ for horde units?)

But personally for Boyz I believe they should be split like in dawn of war between Choppa Boyz and Shottah Boyz with some special rules based in how many you take to make viable both having small squads of 10 shota/choppa boyz and big hordes of them.

Something like for Shota boyz if you have 20+ they have Dakkadakka activated in 5+ and maybe even make shottas 3 shot weapons and if you have a squad that starts the game at 10 you can give them a +1 to hit if they fire inside a trukk? Or something like that. I'm no ork expert.

Perhaps the issue isn't whether orks should be 2 wounds or not compared to marines, but maybe the wounds system needs exploding out a little further generally.

5 wound terminators, 3 wound marines, nobz elite crons, 2 wound orks, sisters, aspects, basic cron infantry, 1 wound daemonettes, guardsmen, eldar guardians etc.

I'd argue that is exactly what they are doing right now.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd argue that is exactly what they are doing right now.

Should've done that in a bit broader scale imo, especially for regular vehicles where not much happened...

Dudeface wrote:
Perhaps the issue isn't whether orks should be 2 wounds or not compared to marines, but maybe the wounds system needs exploding out a little further generally.

5 wound terminators, 3 wound marines, nobz elite crons, 2 wound orks, sisters, aspects, basic cron infantry, 1 wound daemonettes, guardsmen, eldar guardians etc.

We know this isn't happening. If "the durable faction" did not get extra wounds, this is just yet another in a long line of cakes marines get to have and eat too.

I did see a (totally unsubstantiated) rumor that the Eldar army-wide rework bonus was going to be "-1 to hit if the model moved this turn, +1BS if the model didn't move" which I really REALLY hope they don't do, because army-wide -1 to hit would feel like absolute garbage to play with currently. It basically hands your opponents army-wide move and shoot heavy, army-wide advance and shoot assault, army-wide ignore dense cover, etc.

"my eldar is faster, he moves 7"

"oh well, all my orks move 5+D6 now, so, guess not."

Army wide -1 to hit doesn't work as a mechanic within 9th. Even playing vs a single flyer inevitably feels dumb at some point because anything that wants to target the flyer just suddenly starts sprinting around and repositioning freely because whatever, you're gonna be at -1 anyway might as well.

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Perhaps the issue isn't whether orks should be 2 wounds or not compared to marines, but maybe the wounds system needs exploding out a little further generally.

5 wound terminators, 3 wound marines, nobz elite crons, 2 wound orks, sisters, aspects, basic cron infantry, 1 wound daemonettes, guardsmen, eldar guardians etc.

We know this isn't happening. If "the durable faction" did not get extra wounds, this is just yet another in a long line of cakes marines get to have and eat too.

I did see a (totally unsubstantiated) rumor that the Eldar army-wide rework bonus was going to be "-1 to hit if the model moved this turn, +1BS if the model didn't move" which I really REALLY hope they don't do, because army-wide -1 to hit would feel like absolute garbage to play with currently. It basically hands your opponents army-wide move and shoot heavy, army-wide advance and shoot assault, army-wide ignore dense cover, etc.

"my eldar is faster, he moves 7"

"oh well, all my orks move 5+D6 now, so, guess not."

Army wide -1 to hit doesn't work as a mechanic within 9th. Even playing vs a single flyer inevitably feels dumb at some point because anything that wants to target the flyer just suddenly starts sprinting around and repositioning freely because whatever, you're gonna be at -1 anyway might as well.

We know it isn't, I was wondering if it should, whether GW didn't go far enough.

That's honestly hard to tell with just two codices having gotten their makeover. I'm curious to see what they will do with eldar, nids and custodes, because.

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Perhaps the issue isn't whether orks should be 2 wounds or not compared to marines, but maybe the wounds system needs exploding out a little further generally.

5 wound terminators, 3 wound marines, nobz elite crons, 2 wound orks, sisters, aspects, basic cron infantry, 1 wound daemonettes, guardsmen, eldar guardians etc.

We know this isn't happening. If "the durable faction" did not get extra wounds, this is just yet another in a long line of cakes marines get to have and eat too.

I did see a (totally unsubstantiated) rumor that the Eldar army-wide rework bonus was going to be "-1 to hit if the model moved this turn, +1BS if the model didn't move" which I really REALLY hope they don't do, because army-wide -1 to hit would feel like absolute garbage to play with currently. It basically hands your opponents army-wide move and shoot heavy, army-wide advance and shoot assault, army-wide ignore dense cover, etc.

"my eldar is faster, he moves 7"

"oh well, all my orks move 5+D6 now, so, guess not."

Army wide -1 to hit doesn't work as a mechanic within 9th. Even playing vs a single flyer inevitably feels dumb at some point because anything that wants to target the flyer just suddenly starts sprinting around and repositioning freely because whatever, you're gonna be at -1 anyway might as well.

We know it isn't, I was wondering if it should, whether GW didn't go far enough.

Yeah. I think it's pretty clear at this point that the profile of defenses within the game need to be expanded in order to force an opponent to bring a wider array of weaponry to deal with threats.

W2 marines across the board is a good idea. Conceptually, -1 to hit across the board eldar could be a good idea, I just don't think it works with the current cap system implementation. Having a faction be durable because it has a lot of high-AV W2 bodies and a faction be durable because it doesn't care about how many wounds you deal at once the models just get up and a faction be durable because it has a lot of low-AV W1 cheap bodies and a faction be durable because it has a lot of -1 to hit and yadda yadda yadda is fantastic. Any given faction SHOULD make a particular type of weapon greatly less useful because it creates a natural incentive to build less deadly TAC lists rather than spamming nothing but the same weapons.

Right now, in the meta we're in, people are spamming basically nothing but D2 weaponry because those defensive upgrades are being handed out piecemeal. Maybe orks with the ghazzy list is strong enough to punish that, hopefully, I don't know. Maybe Necrons with a warrior swarm+Ctan could. It'd be nice to see the meta organically punishing the massive quantity of W2 armies trying to tailor to kill W2 targets.

Galas wrote:But personally for Boyz I believe they should be split like in dawn of war between Choppa Boyz and Shottah Boyz with some special rules based in how many you take to make viable both having small squads of 10 shota/choppa boyz and big hordes of them.

Dawn of War was limited by its build paradigm so had to be split. Units would be built one way and you would have to upgrade each and every individual one. A pain in the arse (at best) for a unit of 30, and that doesn't even include that you'd have to do again with the reinforcements.

This isn't as necessary with Tabletop. Now if they were separated by Special Rules, that MAY be why they would need to be separated.

Yeah, thats I'm saying, giving them basically two special rules, one for squads of 10 and other for squads of 20+ to give them a place in two sizes (Different for choppa and shotta boyz) . Maybe not even special rules (because they are normal troops) but different number of special weapons options, etc... and allow trukk boyz, horde boyz, etc... all to have a place.

but only if we get 'ard boys update and armor back aswell.

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, thats I'm saying, giving them basically two special rules, one for squads of 10 and other for squads of 20+ to give them a place in two sizes (Different for choppa and shotta boyz) . Maybe not even special rules (because they are normal troops) but different number of special weapons options, etc... and allow trukk boyz, horde boyz, etc... all to have a place.

When I attempted my homebrew of 7th, I made rules for Orks where you got bonuses depending on the squad size, and a near max squad would get a decent ability to use on a LD roll. It wasn't perfect but it was something. Then for Tyranids they got various abilities depending which Synapse creature was near them.

Then for Tyranids they got various abilities depending which Synapse creature was near them.

That's a good fix for synapse. I always thought it should be something that comes with a reward, rather than the zero sum game that currently exists.

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, thats I'm saying, giving them basically two special rules, one for squads of 10 and other for squads of 20+ to give them a place in two sizes (Different for choppa and shotta boyz) . Maybe not even special rules (because they are normal troops) but different number of special weapons options, etc... and allow trukk boyz, horde boyz, etc... all to have a place.

Which brings to mind the complaints about Special Rules bloat.

Not saying it as my complaint, just that others would, because internet.

The issue is not really with the special rules though, but the fact that GW couldn't write decent USR, instead wrote quasi USR special rules and mucked up there aswell (hence the higher ammount of FAQ text) and the ammount some factions have compared to others.

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Perhaps the issue isn't whether orks should be 2 wounds or not compared to marines, but maybe the wounds system needs exploding out a little further generally.

5 wound terminators, 3 wound marines, nobz elite crons, 2 wound orks, sisters, aspects, basic cron infantry, 1 wound daemonettes, guardsmen, eldar guardians etc.

We know this isn't happening. If "the durable faction" did not get extra wounds, this is just yet another in a long line of cakes marines get to have and eat too.

I did see a (totally unsubstantiated) rumor that the Eldar army-wide rework bonus was going to be "-1 to hit if the model moved this turn, +1BS if the model didn't move" which I really REALLY hope they don't do, because army-wide -1 to hit would feel like absolute garbage to play with currently. It basically hands your opponents army-wide move and shoot heavy, army-wide advance and shoot assault, army-wide ignore dense cover, etc.

"my eldar is faster, he moves 7"

"oh well, all my orks move 5+D6 now, so, guess not."

Army wide -1 to hit doesn't work as a mechanic within 9th. Even playing vs a single flyer inevitably feels dumb at some point because anything that wants to target the flyer just suddenly starts sprinting around and repositioning freely because whatever, you're gonna be at -1 anyway might as well.

if they do that I hope they explictly make it an exception to the "max -1 penalty" (so long as they provide limiters so eldar aircraft can't once again be at -3 to hit)

Eldar do, IMHO need SOME sort of "speed is armor" special rule.

Or, we would make AA more available and actually decent against the intended target?

And no another flyer alone doesn't count as decent AA.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Or, we would make AA more available and actually decent against the intended target?

And no another flyer alone doesn't count as decent AA.

back in 6th and 7th AA was almost essential, (as I'm sure you remember) problem was if you took it and a flier didn't show up, you wasted points and FOC slots. and if you didn't take AA and an aircraft showed up..

of course, oddly this could be addressed in 9th easily eneugh with a strat. Let's use Guard as an example, since everyone is familer with the guards tanks. you could have a strat called "ground targeting auspex" that allows you to turn the Hydra into a anti-ground unit. you could likewise have a start that allows say... a lemen RUss exterminator (thats the one with the autocanons) to function an an anti-air unit

IMO the problem is there are too few variants of defensive mechanisms. Dodging, force fields, space magic and godly protection are all displayed by invulnerable saves. I think there needs to be some changes to that.

-1 to hit is just a terrible mechanic to spread around because of the way it interacts with low BS values. As armies are designed in a way that most units share the same BS, there is no way to plan or play around this.

Agile units (which includes most eldar) should be getting dodge saves, to portrait the chance of completely dodging a shot. Essentially this would be the same as invulnerable saves.

Force fields like iron halo, KFF or ion shields have never made sense to me as something that has a random chance to work or not. Instead these should always work and catch the first X damage taken per turn, which obviously should be a different value for a knight's ion shield than for a KFF.

I maintain that adding an Evasion stat is the way to go here, with BS compared to Evasion for shooting, while WS would then be compared to WS for close combat - moving to fixed to-hit scores is a move I dislike, as we're entered a paradigm where a Conscript finds it as easy to hit a Grot as a Bloodthirster in melee, while the Bloodthirster finds it no more of a challenge to strike one of his brethren than he does a Guardsman or even a building.

Adding such a stat gives you a lever to pull to illustrate an agility-based defense, without including additional dodge/invul saves.

When it comes to hard-to-kill units, you can then illustrate such difficulty off four different stats before such saves come into play:
- Hard to hit (with shooting) in the first place? High Evasion
- Hard to cause injury to? High Toughness
- Hard to cause a serious injury to (with basic weapons)? High Wounds
- Defends itself via armour? Armour saves as appropriate.

The defensive profile of any unit can then be described by looking at a set of these values. A Banshee is likely to have higher E than a Guardian, but both will be beaten by a Harlequin - but all three will be higher than a Guardsman, for example.

Evasion in such a manner would punish low BS armies overly though dysartes.
And to hit allready shows the skill involved with the -1 against air targets beeing a better representation of the more difficult to target nature of a flyer....

one can of course disagree with that representation but adding in an additional checks seems overly punishing for some factions and in many ways worse through the added checks implemented than a flat modifier.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Evasion in such a manner would punish low BS armies overly though dysartes.
And to hit allready shows the skill involved with the -1 against air targets beeing a better representation of the more difficult to target nature of a flyer....

Depends on how you benchmark it, and how you implement it. Off the top of my head, I'd imagine Harlequins, Lelith Hesper-thingy, and maybe Imperial Assassins (at least the Callidus) as being the top end of the curve, with the Hammerfall Bunker (and other pieces of immobile scenery) at the bottom of the curve.

I'd say we could look at the current S vs T table as a starting point, but I suspect it hits 6+ to hit too early. I've not tried crunching numbers on this, as you can tell.

Not to mention that, putting it bluntly, a low BS faction should have problems hitting things when shooting. That's kinda the point of having a low BS...

Not Online!!! wrote:
one can of course disagree with that representation but adding in an additional checks seems overly punishing for some factions and in many ways worse through the added checks implemented than a flat modifier.

I wasn't talking an additional check, btw - BS vs. Evasion would replace the current fixed BS+ nonsense, in the same way WS vs. WS would again replace the WS+ nonsense.

I just hope Eldar are finally going to get that big model range revamp they have needed for like two decades.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Don’t Orks have a strategy or something that allows you to bring a load of slain units back to life?

No, as usual you're thinking of Space Marines.

Yeah, marines are well known for their use of "Unstoppable green tide" /s

I've always suspected the Salamanders were a little less than honest....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

Maybe. Personally, I would welcome smaller, more powerful units for more points but it would definitely change the entire feel of the army. 2W marines "feel" right when you play with or against them, I doubt that orks would feel right.
That said, most infantry units orks have don't work because they cost, fight and shoot as much as marines, but have the durability of guardsmen, so 2 wounds might be the solution to that.

Personally I think the basic guardsman should be S3 T3 2W, and a lasgun should be S3 AP0 and D2D (as in 1-3=1 Damage, 4--6= 2 damage) damage, and the rest of the armies should get based out from there on stat lines. I'd like to see (almost) all the basic troops get 2+ wounds(going up for troops that already have more than 1), Almost all the basic weapons get the 50/50 1D/2D treatment (or going up if they already do better etc based on that guard/lasgun baseline). That should add roughly 33% more durability to troops/infantry, some more "clutch" moments to the games you can laugh about afterwards with your mates/buddies depending on which side of the pond you're on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Evasion in such a manner would punish low BS armies overly though dysartes.
And to hit allready shows the skill involved with the -1 against air targets beeing a better representation of the more difficult to target nature of a flyer....

one can of course disagree with that representation but adding in an additional checks seems overly punishing for some factions and in many ways worse through the added checks implemented than a flat modifier.

What would happen is like the old WS chart.

If you are an Assault Marine you have WS4, you want to punch your Chapter Master in the mouth. He is WS6. 4 vs 6 you need a 5+ to punch him.

In THEORY, and ASSUMING I have this evasion stat correct -

You are an Ork Boy. You have BS 3. You want to shoot a Guardsman. They have Evasion 3. Everything they have is 3, so Evasion would be too. You hit the Guardsman on a 4+. You are an Ork Boy, you want to shoot a Tactical Space Marine, they are Evasion 4. You hit on 5's. To only hit on 6's a Boy would have to shoot at some super Harlequin with an Evasion of 7+

It's not a bad idea, but it is more involved than being suggested. It doesn't hurt the low BS armies. It hurts the "high" BS armies with only the one attack vector - i.e. Tau (I mean I get Tau aren't BS4/5/whatever anymore but they still put the high value on BS). And it hurts lower model count lower shots per round armies like Custodes. Custodes are balanced to hit X% of the time. Take away a significant % of that on a lower number of attempts, and they're going to lose more.

The flaw with the WS chart was removing Multiple Combatants. If you charged a Bloodthirster with 30 grots (and we'll assume all 30 make it in range just to explain the mechanic) The first Grot might have WS3, and 1 attack. The second Grot has WS4 and 2 attacks. The third is WS5/3A, fourth WS6/4A, and so on until the 30th is WS 32 with 30A. Giving Evasion a similar mechanic will offset high Evasion vs high RoF, but if its on a per-model basis or worse per shot, it's going to take all day just to shoot one turn. I suppose the idea there then would be to do it per unit, or let the volume from each unit determine the penalty/bonus if any. Or both.

I've been saying for a while (on other forums) that the Eldar are almost embarrassing in some ways. It's more or less the same army with the same models and the same fluff as in 1998. Meanwhile the Imperium has gained Knights, Sisters, Admech and multiple SM chapters, as well as a primarch. Not bad for an archaic, crumbling civilisation that's surrounded, embattled and corrupted on every level...

I would like to see a total revamp of Eldar. More emphasis on them being extremely specialised, extremely hard-hitting and extremely fragile. No more point cuts to make up for crap rules.

Unfortunately Space Marines have become so wildly exaggerated in the fluff that they have become Marvel's Avengers, and the xenos races have become nameless bad guys who don't even get name tags. I cannot see GW making anything more powerful than them, which means the Eldar will probably always be inferior model for model. EDIT: And with CPs now dominating the game, there is no motivation for GW to revisit the rules. Just give them new stratagems to make up for outdated, boring, inferior rules.

Outnumbered and inferior. It 's not looking good for the Craftworlders.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Evasion in such a manner would punish low BS armies overly though dysartes.
And to hit allready shows the skill involved with the -1 against air targets beeing a better representation of the more difficult to target nature of a flyer....

one can of course disagree with that representation but adding in an additional checks seems overly punishing for some factions and in many ways worse through the added checks implemented than a flat modifier.

evasion dispropotionally impacting armies that are inaccurate with their shooting?

Say it ain't so?

Next you'll tell me that armies relying on invulnerable saves for defense are unfair against armies that use a lot of the AP stat.

So lets make some 2021 predictions beyond dexes- the weird off the wall stuff that no one is talking about since Codex refreshes are the most impactful things to think about.

We are going to kick Nurgle's ass in 2021 with a vaccine; that will allow Tournies to return. I expect this means fewer video previews and more convention previews; I also suspect a tournament format that caters to Crusade play; it will be very, very different from the current tourney format- like imagine the 3 month Flashpoint Pariah campaign played in its entirety over a weekend. Invite a team of BL authors and have them write a novel based entirely on the results of the Tourney. For any of you who are pen and paper RPG convention players, think D&D/ RPGA Living City style tournies. I think World of Darkness also had persistent world RPG tournament events.

Speaking of Flashpoint: it eliminates the need for campaign books like Vigilus or PA. Mission pack after mission pack and all of them awesome.

We will finally get to see some of the WH TV shows that have been previewed, and there might be associated tie-in model releases.

Increasing amounts of gender parity in units for some armies (Guard, Aeldari, etc).

Every full Codex faction that doesn't already have bespoke scenery gets some (plastic spore chimnies please). Supreme Commanders for full Codex armies that don't have them. More fliers and LOW for factions that lack them, though this won't be appropriate for all full codex factions yet.

They might finish ALL dexes in 2021, but maybe they'll need a bit of time out of 22 to do it.

Rerelease KT (Confirmed); maybe some small action on the Apocalypse front, and maybe a new 40k Warhammer Quest game to fill the BSF void.

Combat Patrol Boxes continue to replace start collecting boxes (Confirmed). More terrain options. Maybe a new faction, but I suspect that's early 22.

Ongoing APP improvements; by the end of 2021, it might almost be good? Perhaps Crusade tracking functionality?

I think the next CSM army to be released will end up being one of the slightly lesser known factions:
Iron Warriors, with a Perturabo mini
Night Lords with a retcon which has Konrad Curze alive
Red Corsairs with Huron in command.

I think the World Eaters would be used as the big bad for their own edition, such as 10E, the same for Word Bearers and their own Daemon Primarch.

the_scotsman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Evasion in such a manner would punish low BS armies overly though dysartes.
And to hit allready shows the skill involved with the -1 against air targets beeing a better representation of the more difficult to target nature of a flyer....

one can of course disagree with that representation but adding in an additional checks seems overly punishing for some factions and in many ways worse through the added checks implemented than a flat modifier.

evasion dispropotionally impacting armies that are inaccurate with their shooting?

Say it ain't so?

Next you'll tell me that armies relying on invulnerable saves for defense are unfair against armies that use a lot of the AP stat.

HA, how about you play a BS5+ army that doesn't AUTO hit on a 6+ with the 8th ruleset and not turn rather averse to such suggestions?

Things I expect to see in 2021:

1: I expect the codex release stuff for Marines won't be finished until early 2021 when the dark angels supplement comes out. so I kinda expect the first model release of 2021 to be marines.
2: I expect CSMs will get their codex reasonably fast, as I can't see GW leaving them in "one wound limbo" for that long.I doubt they'll get any new kits.
3: I DON'T expect a massive line revamp in 2021. I think they'll space it out a bit.
4: I do expect at least one xenos army to get a sizeable release. although I kinda suspect this will be new stuff.
5: I expect Imperial Aeronautica to introduce a thunderhawk Mini, and GW to do a playful "finally a plastic thunderhawk" campaign.
6: I expect the continuing covid situation to have production issues continue to plague GW

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Evasion in such a manner would punish low BS armies overly though dysartes.
And to hit allready shows the skill involved with the -1 against air targets beeing a better representation of the more difficult to target nature of a flyer....

one can of course disagree with that representation but adding in an additional checks seems overly punishing for some factions and in many ways worse through the added checks implemented than a flat modifier.

evasion dispropotionally impacting armies that are inaccurate with their shooting?

Say it ain't so?

Next you'll tell me that armies relying on invulnerable saves for defense are unfair against armies that use a lot of the AP stat.

HA, how about you play a BS5+ army that doesn't AUTO hit on a 6+ with the 8th ruleset and not turn rather averse to such suggestions?

An Evasion stat, implemented properly, will mean you hit some targets easier than you do now, some with the same difficulty and, yes, some with more difficulty.

This would be true for models of all current BS values. It also fits with the verisimilitude of the setting - are you really going to try to tell me a Conscript (or an Eliminator) is going to find it as difficult to shoot a Hammerfall Bunker as it is an advancing Ork Boy, as it is a Crimson Hunter Exarch travelling at full speed?

BrianDavion wrote:
Things I expect to see in 2021:

1: I expect the codex release stuff for Marines won't be finished until early 2021 when the dark angels supplement comes out. so I kinda expect the first model release of 2021 to be marines.
2: I expect CSMs will get their codex reasonably fast, as I can't see GW leaving them in "one wound limbo" for that long.I doubt they'll get any new kits.
3: I DON'T expect a massive line revamp in 2021. I think they'll space it out a bit.
4: I do expect at least one xenos army to get a sizeable release. although I kinda suspect this will be new stuff.
5: I expect Imperial Aeronautica to introduce a thunderhawk Mini, and GW to do a playful "finally a plastic thunderhawk" campaign.
6: I expect the continuing covid situation to have production issues continue to plague GW

As this is actually on topic I, suspect your probably correct.

I also suspect 2021 will end with atleast 1 probably 2-3 factions still on 8th edition codex's.
Hopefully GW finally release a CA that's based on something other than rounding errors as a balance pass.

 Dysartes wrote:
An Evasion stat, implemented properly, will mean you hit some targets easier than you do now, some with the same difficulty and, yes, some with more difficulty.

This would be true for models of all current BS values. It also fits with the verisimilitude of the setting - are you really going to try to tell me a Conscript (or an Eliminator) is going to find it as difficult to shoot a Hammerfall Bunker as it is an advancing Ork Boy, as it is a Crimson Hunter Exarch travelling at full speed?

Sure, but in reality we know that GW will just drop a common evasion stat on every race, with eldar on top, marines right behind them and necrons and orks will not be able to evade at all because "hurr durr slow and lumbering".

Essentially, this is the same reason why initiative was such a failure, and I really don't trust GW to implement evasion well enough so that codices that aren't some designer's pet army won't be stuck with a a bullseye painted on their backs for years.

And yes, I realize that "GW sucks at writing rules" isn't constructive.

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Things I expect to see in 2021:

1: I expect the codex release stuff for Marines won't be finished until early 2021 when the dark angels supplement comes out. so I kinda expect the first model release of 2021 to be marines.
2: I expect CSMs will get their codex reasonably fast, as I can't see GW leaving them in "one wound limbo" for that long.I doubt they'll get any new kits.
3: I DON'T expect a massive line revamp in 2021. I think they'll space it out a bit.
4: I do expect at least one xenos army to get a sizeable release. although I kinda suspect this will be new stuff.
5: I expect Imperial Aeronautica to introduce a thunderhawk Mini, and GW to do a playful "finally a plastic thunderhawk" campaign.
6: I expect the continuing covid situation to have production issues continue to plague GW

As this is actually on topic I, suspect your probably correct.

I also suspect 2021 will end with atleast 1 probably 2-3 factions still on 8th edition codex's.
Hopefully GW finally release a CA that's based on something other than rounding errors as a balance pass.

Let it be known, I actually agree for the most part with Brian for a change.

 Jidmah wrote:


And yes, I realize that "GW sucks at writing rules" isn't constructive.

Immutable facts of life rarely are.