It just seems like an odd choice to put a Space Marine faction under Armies of the Imperium, instead of Space Marines. It's as if, in trying to emphasize how So Very Special And Not Like Other Marines they are, GW put them in the same category as the Imperium's less elite armies.

Custeds have less in common with space marines than sisters of battle.

Because they are not Space Marines.

As stated, canonically, Custodes are very much NOT Space Marines. They don't have the same organs, they are created from a totally different process, and their training is entirely different altogether. They are about as similar to a Space Marine as a Dark Eldar is to a Craftworld Eldar - similar in many ways, but remarkably different.

 Yarium wrote:
As stated, canonically, Custodes are very much NOT Space Marines. They don't have the same organs, they are created from a totally different process, and their training is entirely different altogether. They are about as similar to a Space Marine as a Dark Eldar is to a Craftworld Eldar - similar in many ways, but remarkably different.

Very bad analogy, as there are examples of Dark Eldar becoming Craftworld eldar. One of the Striking Scorpions in Gav's Path of the Eldar trilogy, for example.

Custards and Space Marines aren't the same, but honestly the fact that the former are simply 'more better' terminators in their current incarnation makes it possible this isn't just sarcasm.

Voss wrote:
Custards and Space Marines aren't the same

lol, is that an autocorrect thing, or a meme like Rowboat Girlyman?

.

I'd wager most people consider them some form of marines - I mean they wear the same kind of armour; have the same unit breakdown; have the exact same transports (it's just painted in goooooold) etc...

Casual glances would class them as marines even if lore wise they are very different. Much like many would visually count Sisters of Battle as the "female marines" even though, again, in lore they are very different.




Ps remember GW is a UK firm so chances are another reason they don't count as true space-marines is because Custodes are more Dutch (I mean who but a Dutchman would coat everything in gooooooold)

 Overread wrote:
Casual glances would class them as marines even if lore wise they are very different. Much like many would visually count Sisters of Battle as the "female marines" even though, again, in lore they are very different.

Sisters aren't bio-engineered, though. That's really what makes a Space Marine, and why I'm still not convinced the Custodes are all that different. Not the power armor and boltguns, but the bio-engineering.

And now this is turning into a fluff/background discussion...

This is all easily researchable on the lexicanum...

Space Marines are created using gene seed from their respective primarch and implanting them with a multitude of different organs that enhance them and make them hulking super soldiers.

Custodes are hand crafted using gene alchemy and archeotech that alters them on a molecular level. They are rebuilt from the ground up to create something that is far more sophisticated than a space marine, hence the low number of custodes compared to marines. The custodes were also the first enhanced humans created by the emperor before and during the unification wars.
Marines are the more efficient soldiers, custodes are better singular warriors.

They are quite different and were originally intended for very different purposes. The marines being an unstoppable crusade force and the custodes being bodyguards and companions for the emperor. The custodes were meant to guide and protect humanity once the emperor had completed his webway project, which obviously went south pretty badly.

But mostly Custodes stood outside His door. Shirtless. In leather pants.

One last bit of eye candy for the psykers being marched in to have their souls munched.

If the lore and fluff weren't so horribly bungled by the writers, there would still be a VERY GOOD DIFFERENCE. Custodians never leave Terra, they only do one thing and that is take care of the Emperor. Astartes leave and go off and crusade. Astartes build chapters and fortresses, and play hunt the xeno. Custodes dust the golden Mantlepiece, and clean up after the golden palace. Custodes are also to Astartes as Astartes are to basic Conscripts. As in Astartes are untrained violent babies in comparison.

Also it is cannon that Custodes write books, and poetry, and songs. Name the last great poem written by a Space Wolf.

 Overread wrote:
I'd wager most people consider them some form of marines - I mean they wear the same kind of armour; have the same unit breakdown; have the exact same transports (it's just painted in goooooold) etc...

Well they have landraiders and their own brand of contemptors, but not all that much else in common.
Then again they don't have all that much of anything if you don't include the forgeworld line.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Also it is cannon that Custodes write books, and poetry, and songs. Name the last great poem written by a Space Wolf.

Bad example, since it's also canon that Space Wolves write sagas about their great heroes which are recited at their feasts, often with extemporaneous embellishment. Their character traits were literally known as sagas for at least a couple of editions (e.g. Saga of the Bear, Saga of the Hunter).

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If the lore and fluff weren't so horribly bungled by the writers, there would still be a VERY GOOD DIFFERENCE. Custodians never leave Terra, they only do one thing and that is take care of the Emperor. Astartes leave and go off and crusade. Astartes build chapters and fortresses, and play hunt the xeno. Custodes dust the golden Mantlepiece, and clean up after the golden palace. Custodes are also to Astartes as Astartes are to basic Conscripts. As in Astartes are untrained violent babies in comparison.

Also it is cannon that Custodes write books, and poetry, and songs. Name the last great poem written by a Space Wolf.

I can't name fictional pieces of fiction in the fiction of a war game, but I'm actually sure that some space wolves do in fact write eddas and sagas. With or without cannons.

But the even more 'more better' than space marines is part of what makes them so ridiculous and pointless.

I personally equate Wulfen battle Sagas to Klingon Poetry. A lot more of the Slam and a lot less of the Poetry part. Anyone want to try and re-enact a Wulfen singing?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I personally equate Wulfen battle Sagas to Klingon Poetry. A lot more of the Slam and a lot less of the Poetry part. Anyone want to try and re-enact a Wulfen singing?

Why wulfen, particularly?
And Klingons having a deep and complex culture has been run into the ground at this point, so I'm not even sure why you'd use that as a comparison.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I personally equate Wulfen battle Sagas to Klingon Poetry. A lot more of the Slam and a lot less of the Poetry part. Anyone want to try and re-enact a Wulfen singing?

I'd compare the Space Wolf sagas to epics like Beowulf or the Iliad, where Custodes might do something more like Shakespeare's sonnets.

Voss wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I personally equate Wulfen battle Sagas to Klingon Poetry. A lot more of the Slam and a lot less of the Poetry part. Anyone want to try and re-enact a Wulfen singing?

Why wulfen, particularly?
And Klingons having a deep and complex culture has been run into the ground at this point, so I'm not even sure why you'd use that as a comparison.

It’s almost certainly closer to Anglo-Saxon chronicling - an oral recitation of one’s deeds which, in time, evolved into Bards, the newsmen of their day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfaEGU45lKA

Aelyn wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I personally equate Wulfen battle Sagas to Klingon Poetry. A lot more of the Slam and a lot less of the Poetry part. Anyone want to try and re-enact a Wulfen singing?

I'd compare the Space Wolf sagas to epics like Beowulf or the Iliad, where Custodes might do something more like Shakespeare's sonnets.

I'm trying to picture Custodes writing cheesy and vulgar little snippets about getting into a woman's underthings.
Its amusing, but difficult.

 Overread wrote:
I'd wager most people consider them some form of marines - I mean they wear the same kind of armour; have the same unit breakdown; have the exact same transports (it's just painted in goooooold) etc...

Casual glances would class them as marines even if lore wise they are very different. Much like many would visually count Sisters of Battle as the "female marines" even though, again, in lore they are very different.




Ps remember GW is a UK firm so chances are another reason they don't count as true space-marines is because Custodes are more Dutch (I mean who but a Dutchman would coat everything in gooooooold)

Shmoke and a pancake?
No?
Flapjack and a Cigarette?
No?
Cigar and a waffle?
No?
Then there is no pleasing you.

Custodes share two vehicles with space marines (Both shoehorned to custodes that are rarely used) with a couple special rules, and one weapon (Hurricane bolters in jetbikes, because the rest are the leman russ weapons and the contemptor weapons)

Their weapons are different. Their rules are different. Their statlines are different. They are dudes in power armor, but they are more different from space marines than even sisters of battle (specially before 2wound marines) or chaos space marines, both in fluff and in the table.

Normal Custodes play more like a bullgryn heavy catachan army than any kind of SM list (A core of extremely strong infantry supported by high powered artillery with vehicles)

-Guardsman- wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Casual glances would class them as marines even if lore wise they are very different. Much like many would visually count Sisters of Battle as the "female marines" even though, again, in lore they are very different.

Sisters aren't bio-engineered, though. That's really what makes a Space Marine, and why I'm still not convinced the Custodes are all that different. Not the power armor and boltguns, but the bio-engineering.

And now this is turning into a fluff/background discussion...

The difference between a marine and a custode is more like the difference between an AK-47 and an M16. A space marine has a more rugged construction but more or less the end product is the same except the custode is a little more a precision instrument. Realistically there is no reason why a custode would be much better than the difference between an m16 and an ak-47 but in the 40k universe a custode is a lot better than a space marine.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I personally equate Wulfen battle Sagas to Klingon Poetry. A lot more of the Slam and a lot less of the Poetry part. Anyone want to try and re-enact a Wulfen singing?

How about Space Wolf Haiku?

My axe stands ready
This day I shall feast with wolves
That bone tasted bad

Brief explanation of the difference: The Custodes were the Emperor's first super-soldier project; they're big and scary, but also incredibly resource-intensive to produce. The process is purely gene-editing rather than the bio-augmentation/cybernetic hybrid of the Space Marines, has to be individually tailored to the subject, and takes much longer.

One of the Emperor's challenges working through his unification of humanity was figuring out how to mass-produce super-soldiers like the Custodians since there was no way he'd be able to make enough Custodians to manage the Great Crusade or defend a galaxy-spanning Imperium. The first version were called the Thunder Warriors; they were unstable, difficult to control, and ended up getting purged as one of the first tasks of the fledgeling Astartes Legions. The Astartes and the Primarch Project appeared successful initially, but proved too vulnerable to the manipulations of Chaos. The Grey Knights and the Primaris are both further refinements of the process that attempt to plug holes in the initial process through more stable/tightly-controlled gene-seed, and in the case of the GK personality wiping.

One other major difference stressed by the Heresy works is that the Custodians are individual warriors trained and optimized for lone action, while the Astartes are built and trained from the ground up as soldiers who coordinate with each other and act together as a unit; you'll note that no version of the game gives the Custodes any kind of protection against morale checks other than high Ld and small squad size.

All thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs.

All Space Marines are genetically engineered superhumans, but not all genetically engineered superhumans are Space Marines.

Marines are augmented humans created using a repeatable process.

Each custodes is hand made and unique

-Guardsman- wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Casual glances would class them as marines even if lore wise they are very different. Much like many would visually count Sisters of Battle as the "female marines" even though, again, in lore they are very different.

Sisters aren't bio-engineered, though. That's really what makes a Space Marine, and why I'm still not convinced the Custodes are all that different. Not the power armor and boltguns, but the bio-engineering.

And now this is turning into a fluff/background discussion...

Well, GW has told you they aren't the same thing. They've done this in both the rules and the fluff.
Why isn't that enough to satisfy you that they aren't the same thing?

 MinscS2 wrote:
All thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs.

Except thumbs aren't fingers. Both are digits, but fingers and thumbs are classed separately from one another.

What you MEANT to say is "All fingers are digits, but not all digits are fingers".

 Galas wrote:
Custodes share two vehicles with space marines (Both shoehorned to custodes that are rarely used) with a couple special rules, and one weapon (Hurricane bolters in jetbikes, because the rest are the leman russ weapons and the contemptor weapons)

Their weapons are different. Their rules are different. Their statlines are different. They are dudes in power armor, but they are more different from space marines than even sisters of battle (specially before 2wound marines) or chaos space marines, both in fluff and in the table.

Normal Custodes play more like a bullgryn heavy catachan army than any kind of SM list (A core of extremely strong infantry supported by high powered artillery with vehicles)

I don't normally chime in, but I think my perspective can be useful here.

As a new 40k player, I can say quite confidently that I consider the Custodes to just be "advanced Space Marines." Obviously they have different lore and weapons and such, but from everything I personally know about them, they're just the Super Marines™ with their Super Tanks™ and Super Dreads™ and Super Bolters.™ In fact, they are so Super™ that they are also Super Hard to Make,™ which means they're all somewhere in the region of 4000 points apiece. I assume most other new players think the same way.

Voss wrote:
I'm trying to picture Custodes writing cheesy and vulgar little snippets about getting into a woman's underthings.
Its amusing, but difficult.

Why would Custodes contemplate a concept hypothetical?
T'would be the very model of a sonnet most heretical!

I think Flipsiders has hit the nail on the head here. They are different, sure, but you need to know sufficient lore in order to know that. The less of that lore you've been exposed to? The more they're going to just look like Super-de-Dooper-humans as opposed to just Superdooperhumans.

 Super Ready wrote:

Voss wrote:
I'm trying to picture Custodes writing cheesy and vulgar little snippets about getting into a woman's underthings.
Its amusing, but difficult.

Why would Custodes contemplate a concept hypothetical?
T'would be the very model of a sonnet most heretical!

I think Flipsiders has hit the nail on the head here. They are different, sure, but you need to know sufficient lore in order to know that. The less of that lore you've been exposed to? The more they're going to just look like Super-de-Dooper-humans as opposed to just Superdooperhumans.

Modern Major General reference, I swooned. THEN A DBZA reference, and I slapped my keyboard so hard my cat fell off the desk.

You sir are the Custodian of all that is awesome tonight.

:Removes hat:

10 Internet points to you for recognising both! ...minus 1 for not mentioning Mordin Solus in Mass Effect 2.

Custodes aren't Marines. That's why they're not included. It's pretty cut and dry.

I mean, in the fluff the Custodes don't trust Marines. They exist separately from Marines, and they don't consider themselves part of that organisation at all. Neither does the Imperium at large.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
All thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs.

Except thumbs aren't fingers. Both are digits, but fingers and thumbs are classed separately from one another.

What you MEANT to say is "All fingers are digits, but not all digits are fingers".

You must be superfun at parties...

Translationsissues aside (in my language, the thumb is very much considered a finger), here's what I found when doing a quick search;

English dictionaries describe finger as meaning either one of the five digits including the thumb, or one of the four excluding the thumb

-Guardsman- wrote:

I'm still not convinced the Custodes are all that different.

You don't have to be convinced of it. You're simply wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The difference between a marine and a custode is more like the difference between an AK-47 and an M16. A space marine has a more rugged construction but more or less the end product is the same except the custode is a little more a precision instrument. Realistically there is no reason why a custode would be much better than the difference between an m16 and an ak-47 but in the 40k universe a custode is a lot better than a space marine.

What the feth are you even talking about, lol?

Sure, and sisters are now slaanesh because they are female.

That’s about as large as the list of similarities between marines and custodes.

2 copy and paste vehicles and the odd imperial weapon or 2 is the only common factor between them.
Everything else about them is entirely different.

I mean, this is kind of a consequence of gravis and elite marines eating the custodes’ niche on the tabletop. Used to be an army that was full of captains, but now it’s an army full of less flexible chonky marines. Full of captains is pretty unique. Full of chonky marines is not

For me the difference is in the "story plot". God Emperor tries to unite humanity, and fight the Techno Barbarians. Creates Super warriors, named Custodes, but too much is required, needs a slightly less good but mass-producible army. Creates Thunder warriors. They are slightly less powerful then custodes, and win him the galaxy, but they are also insane and incapable of long life. So he goes back and creates the Astartes/Primarchs, which are as near to perfect as he can manage for a mass produced army. They cannot beat thunder warriors, so the Custodes have to do it. The Custodes Slaughter the entire race of Thunder Warriors, in a relatively short period of time. So basically, in order of power:

Emperor>Custodes>Primarchs>Thunder Warriors>Astartes.

Astartes are the bottom tier of the Gene bred warriors of the Emperor. Custodes are just below the Emperor. That is the difference.

stratigo wrote:
I mean, this is kind of a consequence of gravis and elite marines eating the custodes’ niche on the tabletop. Used to be an army that was full of captains, but now it’s an army full of less flexible chonky marines. Full of captains is pretty unique. Full of chonky marines is not

Custodes niche is 'not on the tabletop'
'better terminators' was something terminators needed, not a new subfaction.

'Full of captains' is simply dreadful for game balance.

Voss wrote:

stratigo wrote:
I mean, this is kind of a consequence of gravis and elite marines eating the custodes’ niche on the tabletop. Used to be an army that was full of captains, but now it’s an army full of less flexible chonky marines. Full of captains is pretty unique. Full of chonky marines is not

Custodes niche is 'not on the tabletop'
'better terminators' was something terminators needed, not a new subfaction.

'Full of captains' is simply dreadful for game balance.

Yes because Custodes are super unbalanced LOL

Voss wrote:

Aelyn wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I personally equate Wulfen battle Sagas to Klingon Poetry. A lot more of the Slam and a lot less of the Poetry part. Anyone want to try and re-enact a Wulfen singing?

I'd compare the Space Wolf sagas to epics like Beowulf or the Iliad, where Custodes might do something more like Shakespeare's sonnets.

I'm trying to picture Custodes writing cheesy and vulgar little snippets about getting into a woman's underthings.
Its amusing, but difficult.

And from.a personal standpoint, well.worth the effort. Fnyarr, and indeed, fnyarr.

To the uninitiated they're both big dudes in chunky armour, not hard to see where confusion can arise.
Same with Sisters I'm guessing, a novice would be more likely to assume they're female marines than a female Imperial Guard regiment.
Power armour has a specific look, Marines greatest foe is Marines with spikes after all.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
For me the difference is in the "story plot". God Emperor tries to unite humanity, and fight the Techno Barbarians. Creates Super warriors, named Custodes, but too much is required, needs a slightly less good but mass-producible army. Creates Thunder warriors. They are slightly less powerful then custodes, and win him the galaxy, but they are also insane and incapable of long life. So he goes back and creates the Astartes/Primarchs, which are as near to perfect as he can manage for a mass produced army. They cannot beat thunder warriors, so the Custodes have to do it. The Custodes Slaughter the entire race of Thunder Warriors, in a relatively short period of time. So basically, in order of power:

Emperor>Custodes>Primarchs>Thunder Warriors>Astartes.

Astartes are the bottom tier of the Gene bred warriors of the Emperor. Custodes are just below the Emperor. That is the difference.

A Primarch can rip a Custodian limb from limb.

And has. Angron literally tore the Emperor's bodyguards to pieces with his bare hands when he was spirited away from Nuceria, until Malcador knocked him out.

Yeah only the best Custodes can goe toe to toe with a Primarch and at best don't die instantly. The High General of the Heresy was nearly capable of defeating some primarchs , I don't remember his name, but even then it was much more probably for him to lose.

Now, we all know Primarch power are highly inconsistent and in some novels you have 10 Space Wolves "scorting" a Primarch under Malcador orders so if they go roge basically kill him, like with Sanguinius.

Of course any Custode is much better than most primarchs at basically being emotionally and mentally stable.

 kingheff wrote:
To the uninitiated they're both big dudes in chunky armour, not hard to see where confusion can arise.

actuaslly it kiiiinda is





COMPLETELY differant aestetics. there's very little that would tie these guys in eneugh to think they're somehow the same type of thing beyond "guys in armor"

Picking the plainest Marine models you can find doesn't help when Space Marines like these exist...

 Ghaz wrote:
Picking the plainest Marine models you can find doesn't help when Space Marines like these exist...

Spoiler:

Or Sanguinary Guard...

the point still stands that there really aren't that many aestetics shared among them. notably the helmets are very very differant

The different aesthetics are largely just cosmetic, though. The chestplates and shoulder pads combine to make something that is very recognisably power armour, in the same curved-plate style as Marine armour. To the untrained eye, they're just Marines in pointy hats... which isn't enough to make them something distinctly different, given how many different styles of hats Marines have.

Aesthetically, let's face it, the Custodes are about as different from ordinary Marines as Grey Knights are. And while anyone versed in lore knows that Grey Knights are not exactly ordinary Space Marines... they are still Space Marines. So that's another point of reference that could easily confuse newcomers.

 Super Ready wrote:
Aesthetically, let's face it, the Custodes are about as different from ordinary Marines as Grey Knights are.

They're not. They're more-so.

BrianDavion wrote:
the point still stands that there really aren't that many aestetics shared among them. notably the helmets are very very differant

To you the difference is obvious but to the new player they don't have the point of reference to make that call. As has been stated, look at Sanguinary guard. They have a colour scheme that is very similar to Custodes, arguably make Custodes look restrained by comparison and different shaped helmets from normal marines, they share as many similarities/differences to an intercessor as a custodian guard but, fundamentally they all look like big guys in power armour. Power armour has a distinctive silhouette.

 kingheff wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the point still stands that there really aren't that many aestetics shared among them. notably the helmets are very very differant

To you the difference is obvious but to the new player they don't have the point of reference to make that call. As has been stated, look at Sanguinary guard. They have a colour scheme that is very similar to Custodes, arguably make Custodes look restrained by comparison and different shaped helmets from normal marines, they share as many similarities/differences to an intercessor as a custodian guard but, fundamentally they all look like big guys in power armour. Power armour has a distinctive silhouette.

except that it's no more similer then

it's segmented armor plates, a back pack. THEY'RE THE SAME THING!

BrianDavion I'm sorry. I was one of the first in this post to say that they are not the same specially rules wise but for a newy player buff dudes in power armor are totally nearly the same.

Honestly even long term fans are going to see space marines when they see custodes.

They have the same body proportions; the same armour general shape and construction; the same weapon types (bolter); the same overall unit divisions; the same transport vehicles.

Sure their "Dreadnought" looks very different, but they still have one. Sure their armour is more ornate (and gold); but they are still basically a space marine in shape and form.



Eldar guardians are very different; they've a more lithe build; their weapons are different; their overall structure and style is different. Their shoulderpads are not twice the size of their heads etc....


Plus Custodes are listed under the Imperium so you know they are Imperial, not Chaos nor Xenos. They are Imperial guys in big thick armour just like a space marine - they are a variation of a space marine to most. Sure lore wise they are different; but at a quick visual glance they are marines.

Angron ripping apart a Custodian has to be the dumbest thing ever. Angron was a walking talking lore break. Want proof? "IM SO ANGRY I CAN LIFE A TITAN" If Angron was maximally angry, what are three things he coulnd't do?

Yes.

Also, literally any main focus of a book is indistinguishable from a god in certain situations. A single Iron Snake moving faster than a pack of Dark Eldar can see? Angron Lifting a Titan? Ciaphas Cain defeating a Word Bearer Captain in a sword fight? Same guy defeating an Ork Warboss in a sword fight? Eisenhorn taking down a WARLORD TITAN with a Daemon? It's called Plot Armor. And the GK are the kings of it. Angron "ripping" apart a Custodian fits right in with that.

 Overread wrote:
Honestly even long term fans are going to see space marines when they see custodes.

They have the same body proportions; the same armour general shape and construction; the same weapon types (bolter); the same overall unit divisions; the same transport vehicles.

ok, shut up, and take a space marine mini and a custodes mini and go show it to your elderly mother, or your neighbor across the street. point at the boltgun and the guardian spear. ask them "is this the same weapon"? youonly know they're the same weapon since you play 40k and are told it's the same weapon.

that applies to well.. an aweful lot of things, you know these guys are supposed to be related so you look for the handful of similer things that yes is aligned. but I garentee you, your mother/neighbor or whatother person who doesn't know jack all about 40k you choose, won't know.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Emperor>Custodes>Primarchs>Thunder Warriors>Astartes.

Custodes above Primarchs.
Classic Fezzik LOL.
Reminds me of when you told everyone about how the Custodes were killing Sisters of Battle during the Reign of Blood. Still don't want to either give a source for that, or recognize you were wrong?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Angron ripping apart a Custodian has to be the dumbest thing ever. Angron was a walking talking lore break. Want proof? "IM SO ANGRY I CAN LIFE A TITAN" If Angron was maximally angry, what are three things he coulnd't do?

Yes.

Also, literally any main focus of a book is indistinguishable from a god in certain situations. A single Iron Snake moving faster than a pack of Dark Eldar can see? Angron Lifting a Titan? Ciaphas Cain defeating a Word Bearer Captain in a sword fight? Same guy defeating an Ork Warboss in a sword fight? Eisenhorn taking down a WARLORD TITAN with a Daemon? It's called Plot Armor. And the GK are the kings of it. Angron "ripping" apart a Custodian fits right in with that.

No, Custodians are weaker than Primarchs, period. The gap between a Space Marine and a Custodian is smaller than the gap between a Custodian and a Primarch. Even Alpharius, the smallest and physically weakest Primarch, is much more powerful than any Custodian.

Don't like Black Library? I'm pretty sure that on average Valdor loses to every Primarch in the entire game in a challenge, even Lorgar. Against Horus, Fulgrim, Angron, Leman Russ, or one of the better duelists on the tabletop? He's crushed pretty much effortlessly.

And that's literally the best Custodian in the Heresy era, maybe ever.

Why not go check out how well a Custodians' statline matches up to Guilliman's, lol?

Tbh, I legit thought custodes were just fancy marines at the start of 8th. ( I’d been out of the hobby since 4th) Kinda like grey knights in many ways actually. a grey knight termie is closer to a custode in looks than a tactical marine.

BrianDavion wrote:

ok, shut up, and take a space marine mini and a custodes mini and go show it to your elderly mother, or your neighbor across the street. point at the boltgun and the guardian spear. ask them "is this the same weapon"? youonly know they're the same weapon since you play 40k and are told it's the same weapon.

that applies to well.. an aweful lot of things, you know these guys are supposed to be related so you look for the handful of similer things that yes is aligned. but I garentee you, your mother/neighbor or whatother person who doesn't know jack all about 40k you choose, won't know.

Dude, chill out. This is getting oddly personal even here, considering we're talking a subject that is strictly subjective, not objective.
People are allowed to have different opinions to you - and judging by most of the thread, I'd say you're in the minority here.

BrianDavion wrote:
ok, shut up, and take a space marine mini and a custodes mini and go show it to your elderly mother, or your neighbor across the street. point at the boltgun and the guardian spear. ask them "is this the same weapon"? youonly know they're the same weapon since you play 40k and are told it's the same weapon.

that applies to well.. an aweful lot of things, you know these guys are supposed to be related so you look for the handful of similer things that yes is aligned. but I garentee you, your mother/neighbor or whatother person who doesn't know jack all about 40k you choose, won't know.

Just to check, you do realise that you're arguing that people who don't know their background will recognise that Custodes and Marines are clearly different things in a thread started by someone who doesn't know their background and assumed they were Marines, right?

 insaniak wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
ok, shut up, and take a space marine mini and a custodes mini and go show it to your elderly mother, or your neighbor across the street. point at the boltgun and the guardian spear. ask them "is this the same weapon"? youonly know they're the same weapon since you play 40k and are told it's the same weapon.

that applies to well.. an aweful lot of things, you know these guys are supposed to be related so you look for the handful of similer things that yes is aligned. but I garentee you, your mother/neighbor or whatother person who doesn't know jack all about 40k you choose, won't know.

Just to check, you do realise that you're arguing that people who don't know their background will recognise that Custodes and Marines are clearly different things in a thread started by someone who looked doesn't know their background and assumed they were Marines, right?

the guy's been writing 40k fan fiction since at least 2016 (his first post here) he does know 40k

my point is that if you took someone who knew NOTHING, and had no preconceptions at all (hence my suggestion of a mother, a neighbor etc) they'd not think they where related

What are you...?
No. They're terminators, they look like more of the same.

Given that the SM weapons section is now a full _five and a half_ pages, I'd fully expect people already somewhat familiar with 40k to go and check and make sure that 'power spear' (or other more absurd variants of '<something> spear' or 'spear of <something>') isn't on the bloody list.

BrianDavion wrote:

 kingheff wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the point still stands that there really aren't that many aestetics shared among them. notably the helmets are very very differant

To you the difference is obvious but to the new player they don't have the point of reference to make that call. As has been stated, look at Sanguinary guard. They have a colour scheme that is very similar to Custodes, arguably make Custodes look restrained by comparison and different shaped helmets from normal marines, they share as many similarities/differences to an intercessor as a custodian guard but, fundamentally they all look like big guys in power armour. Power armour has a distinctive silhouette.

except that it's no more similer then

it's segmented armor plates, a back pack. THEY'RE THE SAME THING!

I could not tell you how much I disagree with this assessment. I could talk quite a lot about this, but suffice to say, the basic visual design of these three units is intended to suggest to anyone, regardless of game familiarity, that the SM and Custodes are connected but the Aeldari are not. The Custodes armor looks like the SM armor with a bunch of fancy stuff tacked on, which suggests that they're elite or otherwise important, but the two armors obviously came from the same basic design philosophy of "take armor that works well and stick extra stuff on it." Both armors are also clearly built for toughness rather than speed. In fact, GW plays off that last part whenever they go down the whole "SMs scare people because something that big shouldn't be able to go fast" route.

Meanwhile, the Guardian armor is clearly built for something else entirely. They're sleek and skinny and covered in thin curves (especially the guns) and generally look like the exact opposite of the chunky Mark VII armor. Maybe if the helmets and guns were different, you could convince someone new to 40k that guardians were SM scouts or infiltrator troops or something, but I think even then it would be a hard sell. Seriously, I don't know how you could even argue that the same society which developed the bolter developed the shuriken catapult, based on design philosophy alone. It's so skinny!

BrianDavion wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Honestly even long term fans are going to see space marines when they see custodes.

They have the same body proportions; the same armour general shape and construction; the same weapon types (bolter); the same overall unit divisions; the same transport vehicles.

ok, shut up, and take a space marine mini and a custodes mini and go show it to your elderly mother, or your neighbor across the street. point at the boltgun and the guardian spear. ask them "is this the same weapon"? youonly know they're the same weapon since you play 40k and are told it's the same weapon.

You seem desperate to win. Yes there are differences, but if you put them side by side they are so very similar.
Heck the Contemptor is the old dreadnought design for regular marines from Titan Legions - the GW studio plastic one even has the rather flat and somewhat dull pose and leg/hip design. The FW one looks far more dynamic even though its technically a different class.

I know the fluff well, but I have to agree that the distinction is mostly academic. Both are enhanced super-human warriors in power armour. That the method of enhancement is somewhat different is pretty insignificant distinction, and I can easily see why people who are not huge fans of these factions would mentally lump them together.

Oh, come on. The clear visual difference is that no space marine in the modern range has a helmet plume.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Angron ripping apart a Custodian has to be the dumbest thing ever. Angron was a walking talking lore break. Want proof? "IM SO ANGRY I CAN LIFE A TITAN" If Angron was maximally angry, what are three things he coulnd't do?

Yes.

Also, literally any main focus of a book is indistinguishable from a god in certain situations. A single Iron Snake moving faster than a pack of Dark Eldar can see? Angron Lifting a Titan? Ciaphas Cain defeating a Word Bearer Captain in a sword fight? Same guy defeating an Ork Warboss in a sword fight? Eisenhorn taking down a WARLORD TITAN with a Daemon? It's called Plot Armor. And the GK are the kings of it. Angron "ripping" apart a Custodian fits right in with that.

No, Custodians are weaker than Primarchs, period. The gap between a Space Marine and a Custodian is smaller than the gap between a Custodian and a Primarch. Even Alpharius, the smallest and physically weakest Primarch, is much more powerful than any Custodian.

Don't like Black Library? I'm pretty sure that on average Valdor loses to every Primarch in the entire game in a challenge, even Lorgar. Against Horus, Fulgrim, Angron, Leman Russ, or one of the better duelists on the tabletop? He's crushed pretty much effortlessly.

And that's literally the best Custodian in the Heresy era, maybe ever.

Why not go check out how well a Custodians' statline matches up to Guilliman's, lol?

To be fair, a lot of people aren’t very thrilled about the Horus heresy taking what we were told were 10,000 year old myths then playing them as serious.

I can’t argue that a modern lore primarch is anything other than “to a custodes what a custodes is to a marine, plus all 19 of them are named characters to boot”, but before Horus Rising came out I would have assumed the only reasonable assumption was they were either standard marines or various generals the emperor found around the galaxy and gave Roman-style political adoptions and custom gene mods.

How is this thread still going? OP asked a question and got an answer from at least 5 people. And now people are arguing about semantics again for 2 pages?

Primarchs are way stronger than custodians.
Custodians are stronger than astartes and all of the aforementioned differ quite a bit in how they are made.
/thread

Tiberias wrote:
How is this thread still going? OP asked a question and got an answer from at least 5 people. And now people are arguing about semantics again for 2 pages?

Primarchs are way stronger than custodians.
Custodians are stronger than astartes and all of the aforementioned differ quite a bit in how they are made.
/thread

I would imagine that it would be because this is a discussion forum, some people are still interested in some manner of ongoing discussion, and we aren’t wasting your air or anything so you’re complaining about nothing?

Tiberias wrote:
How is this thread still going? OP asked a question and got an answer from at least 5 people. And now people are arguing about semantics again for 2 pages?

So, I take it you're new to Dakka? (Or the internet in general, really)

changemod wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
How is this thread still going? OP asked a question and got an answer from at least 5 people. And now people are arguing about semantics again for 2 pages?

Primarchs are way stronger than custodians.
Custodians are stronger than astartes and all of the aforementioned differ quite a bit in how they are made.
/thread

I would imagine that it would be because this is a discussion forum, some people are still interested in some manner of ongoing discussion, and we aren’t wasting your air or anything so you’re complaining about nothing?

Classic dakka....god, I hope no new player/member ever wanders into the general discussion forum.

The matter has been resolved two pages ago, and what happened after wasn't a fruitful discussion, but people trying to prove each other wrong. If you are seriously interested to discuss topics that weren't in OPs question like you claim, nothing is stopping you from creating your own thread to seriously discuss whatever you want.

changemod wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Angron ripping apart a Custodian has to be the dumbest thing ever. Angron was a walking talking lore break. Want proof? "IM SO ANGRY I CAN LIFE A TITAN" If Angron was maximally angry, what are three things he coulnd't do?

Yes.

Also, literally any main focus of a book is indistinguishable from a god in certain situations. A single Iron Snake moving faster than a pack of Dark Eldar can see? Angron Lifting a Titan? Ciaphas Cain defeating a Word Bearer Captain in a sword fight? Same guy defeating an Ork Warboss in a sword fight? Eisenhorn taking down a WARLORD TITAN with a Daemon? It's called Plot Armor. And the GK are the kings of it. Angron "ripping" apart a Custodian fits right in with that.

No, Custodians are weaker than Primarchs, period. The gap between a Space Marine and a Custodian is smaller than the gap between a Custodian and a Primarch. Even Alpharius, the smallest and physically weakest Primarch, is much more powerful than any Custodian.

Don't like Black Library? I'm pretty sure that on average Valdor loses to every Primarch in the entire game in a challenge, even Lorgar. Against Horus, Fulgrim, Angron, Leman Russ, or one of the better duelists on the tabletop? He's crushed pretty much effortlessly.

And that's literally the best Custodian in the Heresy era, maybe ever.

Why not go check out how well a Custodians' statline matches up to Guilliman's, lol?

To be fair, a lot of people aren’t very thrilled about the Horus heresy taking what we were told were 10,000 year old myths then playing them as serious.

I can’t argue that a modern lore primarch is anything other than “to a custodes what a custodes is to a marine, plus all 19 of them are named characters to boot”, but before Horus Rising came out I would have assumed the only reasonable assumption was they were either standard marines or various generals the emperor found around the galaxy and gave Roman-style political adoptions and custom gene mods.

The Primarchs were actually detailed quite a bit in the Index Astartes series circa 2000 where WD went through every legion in order and filled out much of the detail on the finding of the primarch, what they did in the heresy and how they developed afterwards. It’s pretty much the backbone on which the whole HH series was hung when they started writing it over half a decade later.

In any case, even in IA the primarchs were portrayed as significantly larger and more powerful than mere space marines.

Going even further back, Realms of Chaos (late 80s) also covered the HH, including the Siege of Terra and the original depiction of the Emperor vs Horus and again the primarchs are very much depicted as being significantly more powerful than marines (here there is the fight between Sanguinius and a bloodthirster for example).

Lord Zarkov wrote:


The Primarchs were actually detailed quite a bit in the Index Astartes series circa 2000 where WD went through every legion in order and filled out much of the detail on the finding of the primarch, what they did in the heresy and how they developed afterwards. It’s pretty much the backbone on which the whole HH series was hung when they started writing it over half a decade later.

In any case, even in IA the primarchs were portrayed as significantly larger and more powerful than mere space marines.

Going even further back, Realms of Chaos (late 80s) also covered the HH, including the Siege of Terra and the original depiction of the Emperor vs Horus and again the primarchs are very much depicted as being significantly more powerful than marines (here there is the fight between Sanguinius and a bloodthirster for example).

Yes, and many of us understood those to be a distorted legends told ten millennia after the actual events instead of accurate depictions of real historical events. It's like in the legend Gilgamesh is eighteen feet tall and fights god-monsters, but most of us probably do not believe that historical Gilgamesh was like that if he existed at all.

 Crimson wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:


The Primarchs were actually detailed quite a bit in the Index Astartes series circa 2000 where WD went through every legion in order and filled out much of the detail on the finding of the primarch, what they did in the heresy and how they developed afterwards. It’s pretty much the backbone on which the whole HH series was hung when they started writing it over half a decade later.

In any case, even in IA the primarchs were portrayed as significantly larger and more powerful than mere space marines.

Going even further back, Realms of Chaos (late 80s) also covered the HH, including the Siege of Terra and the original depiction of the Emperor vs Horus and again the primarchs are very much depicted as being significantly more powerful than marines (here there is the fight between Sanguinius and a bloodthirster for example).

Yes, and many of us understood those to be a distorted legends told ten millennia after the actual events instead of accurate depictions of real historical events. It's like in the legend Gilgamesh is eighteen feet tall and fights god-monsters, but most of us probably do not believe that historical Gilgamesh was like that if he existed at all.

While IA was written from a historian’s perspective with large parts of it deliberately fragmented or unclear, other bits were at quite high fidelity. tbh I think people would be kidding themselves if they thought the depictions of the primarchs were that off base. Especially after the Cursed Founding one which had depictions of Fabius Bile trying to clone primarchs where they they significantly larger than space marine size.

RoC however was written from an omniscient perspective rather than a historical one (other than Emperor v Horus which was from the Emperor’s personal perspective) so even that doesn’t apply.

In either case though, even assuming some exaggeration, ‘before Horus Rising came out... ...the only reasonable assumption is that they were either standard marines or various generals the Emperor found around the galaxy’ as stated in the post I quoted is clearly incorrect!

In the original Rogue Trader maybe, but that wasn’t even true by 1990, let along 2006!

changemod wrote:

To be fair, a lot of people aren’t very thrilled about the Horus heresy taking what we were told were 10,000 year old myths then playing them as serious.

I can’t argue that a modern lore primarch is anything other than “to a custodes what a custodes is to a marine, plus all 19 of them are named characters to boot”, but before Horus Rising came out I would have assumed the only reasonable assumption was they were either standard marines or various generals the emperor found around the galaxy and gave Roman-style political adoptions and custom gene mods.

How the only reasonable assumptions could have been ones that had literally no basis at all in fluff that was modern in like 1990 at latest is quite something, isn't it?

No, people are just butthurt that their headcanon concerning the Primarchs was not true and frankly has never been true.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

changemod wrote:

To be fair, a lot of people aren’t very thrilled about the Horus heresy taking what we were told were 10,000 year old myths then playing them as serious.

I can’t argue that a modern lore primarch is anything other than “to a custodes what a custodes is to a marine, plus all 19 of them are named characters to boot”, but before Horus Rising came out I would have assumed the only reasonable assumption was they were either standard marines or various generals the emperor found around the galaxy and gave Roman-style political adoptions and custom gene mods.

How the only reasonable assumptions could have been ones that had literally no basis at all in fluff that was modern in like 1990 at latest is quite something, isn't it?

No, people are just butthurt that their headcanon concerning the Primarchs was not true and frankly has never been true.

With the exception of Bobby G, we really don't have much to go off of for primarch abilities, and even he's a singularly exempt sample. His table stats have zero bearing on fluff arguments. Because then every named character in the game would be T8 with 20 wounds and a 1++. When it comes to literal Primarch fluff, all we have is retold tales from extremely suspect sources. The ones who are currently alive (known) are either Daemon princes, or Cawl tinkered lore that is a total retcon.

This thread is a troll right XD... Why are people so obsessed with making every army the "same thing"

If we wana play a game where we have 5 datasheets

1. light infantry,
2. heavy infantry,
3. light tank
4. heavy tank
5. transport

and just "painting and imagining the fluff"

Then maybe you dont understand that people enjoy playing unique and different armies on the table as much as they like painting them and building them different...

i do admit , if we turned the entire game into 5 datasheets it would be far more balanced.
but a little boring compared to armies,,, you know,,, playing different.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If the lore and fluff weren't so horribly bungled by the writers, there would still be a VERY GOOD DIFFERENCE. Custodians never leave Terra, they only do one thing and that is take care of the Emperor. Astartes leave and go off and crusade. Astartes build chapters and fortresses, and play hunt the xeno. Custodes dust the golden Mantlepiece, and clean up after the golden palace. Custodes are also to Astartes as Astartes are to basic Conscripts. As in Astartes are untrained violent babies in comparison.

Also it is cannon that Custodes write books, and poetry, and songs. Name the last great poem written by a Space Wolf.

This is FALSE mostly. They left Terra in secret all the time to do missions and to steal/kidnap Xenos and Daemons and CSM and bring them back to have new recruits and old Custodes to practice on/learn from. They also carried out missions in secret. When Pappa Smurf became Head-Honcho the CustardMen used this opportunity to sway him into allowing them as a FULL FIGHTING FORCE into the galaxy once more and being one of the main reasons why they stayed behind he once more allowed them and they went ZOOM and delivered Primari Geneseed to the chapters and went to go fight. As they are singular unit of 10k they out number any 1 chapter of Space Marines as a fighting force and they don't "Answer" to Guillerman. They only listen to the Emperor as they are his to command.

"Name the last great poem written by a Space Wolf ?"

I get what you are saying and I agree. However, bad example, because spacewolves are one of the few chapters/legions that actually DO write poetry, stories and songs... (they don't actually write it though, its all word of mouth).

 Type40 wrote:
This thread is a troll right XD... Why are people so obsessed with making every army the "same thing"

If we wana play a game where we have 5 datasheets

1. light infantry,
2. heavy infantry,
3. light tank
4. heavy tank
5. transport

and just "painting and imagining the fluff"

Then maybe you dont understand that people enjoy playing unique and different armies on the table as much as they like painting them and building them different...

i do admit , if we turned the entire game into 5 datasheets it would be far more balanced.
but a little boring compared to armies,,, you know,,, playing different.

.... I couldn't exalt this eneugh.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


With the exception of Bobby G, we really don't have much to go off of for primarch abilities, and even he's a singularly exempt sample. His table stats have zero bearing on fluff arguments. Because then every named character in the game would be T8 with 20 wounds and a 1++. When it comes to literal Primarch fluff, all we have is retold tales from extremely suspect sources. The ones who are currently alive (known) are either Daemon princes, or Cawl tinkered lore that is a total retcon.

Are you aware that there is an entire game line set when all the Primarchs were walking around where as of now I think all of them have stat lines?

And that all of them are more formidable than any Custode, even Constantin Valdor who also has a stat line, who is arguably the greatest Custode ever?

Ah yes, the old "I don't like the Primarch fluff so I'm going to pretend none of it is real" argument lol. I could easily use the same reasoning against Custodes, who are canonically recorded as never having lost a battle regardless of how the battle actually went.

No, we have plenty of Primarch fluff at this point, both from the old Index Astartes articles, to the Horus Heresy series proper, to the FW HH game line.

In all of them the fluff places the Primarchs as the mightiest superhumans the Emperor ever created, far more powerful than even the Custodes.

Provide a single source that claims Custodes are individually superior to Primarchs.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:


The Primarchs were actually detailed quite a bit in the Index Astartes series circa 2000 where WD went through every legion in order and filled out much of the detail on the finding of the primarch, what they did in the heresy and how they developed afterwards. It’s pretty much the backbone on which the whole HH series was hung when they started writing it over half a decade later.

In any case, even in IA the primarchs were portrayed as significantly larger and more powerful than mere space marines.

Going even further back, Realms of Chaos (late 80s) also covered the HH, including the Siege of Terra and the original depiction of the Emperor vs Horus and again the primarchs are very much depicted as being significantly more powerful than marines (here there is the fight between Sanguinius and a bloodthirster for example).

Yes, and many of us understood those to be a distorted legends told ten millennia after the actual events instead of accurate depictions of real historical events. It's like in the legend Gilgamesh is eighteen feet tall and fights god-monsters, but most of us probably do not believe that historical Gilgamesh was like that if he existed at all.

While IA was written from a historian’s perspective with large parts of it deliberately fragmented or unclear, other bits were at quite high fidelity. tbh I think people would be kidding themselves if they thought the depictions of the primarchs were that off base. Especially after the Cursed Founding one which had depictions of Fabius Bile trying to clone primarchs where they they significantly larger than space marine size.

RoC however was written from an omniscient perspective rather than a historical one (other than Emperor v Horus which was from the Emperor’s personal perspective) so even that doesn’t apply.

In either case though, even assuming some exaggeration, ‘before Horus Rising came out... ...the only reasonable assumption is that they were either standard marines or various generals the Emperor found around the galaxy’ as stated in the post I quoted is clearly incorrect!

In the original Rogue Trader maybe, but that wasn’t even true by 1990, let along 2006!

Don't try to arguee with people that believes their head-canon is the actual canon and then complains when the canon is not what they want.

 Type40 wrote:
This thread is a troll right XD... Why are people so obsessed with making every army the "same thing"

If we wana play a game where we have 5 datasheets

1. light infantry,
2. heavy infantry,
3. light tank
4. heavy tank
5. transport

and just "painting and imagining the fluff"

Then maybe you dont understand that people enjoy playing unique and different armies on the table as much as they like painting them and building them different...

i do admit , if we turned the entire game into 5 datasheets it would be far more balanced.
but a little boring compared to armies,,, you know,,, playing different.

Did you post this in the wrong thread? Because I'm missing the connection to anything that's being discussed here.

 insaniak wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
This thread is a troll right XD... Why are people so obsessed with making every army the "same thing"

If we wana play a game where we have 5 datasheets

1. light infantry,
2. heavy infantry,
3. light tank
4. heavy tank
5. transport

and just "painting and imagining the fluff"

Then maybe you dont understand that people enjoy playing unique and different armies on the table as much as they like painting them and building them different...

i do admit , if we turned the entire game into 5 datasheets it would be far more balanced.
but a little boring compared to armies,,, you know,,, playing different.

Did you post this in the wrong thread? Because I'm missing the connection to anything that's being discussed here.

Throughout the the thread people have mentioned amalgamating custodies into SM ... I propose an extreme example of this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes I also realize this is most likely fluff confusion and not that sentiment about the game,,, I hope.

 Type40 wrote:

Throughout the the thread people have mentioned amalgamating custodies into SM ...

Er... no, they haven't.

The discussion here was about people thinking that Custodes are a type of Space Marine, and how distinct the two actually are. Nobody in this thread suggested that their rules should be amalgamated.

Ah, I misinterpreted the thread... Sorry... But my point stands rules way as well as lore wise. Let's stop bundling each faction together, lore and rules. I think it's turning the games and stories vanilla.... If custodes are just another set of marines then why isn't everything just marines XD. The answer is because the lore and game would be boring if the factions weren't unique in so many different ways. Everyone is attracted to 40k for different asthetics, atmospheres and levels of superhumaness XD.

 Type40 wrote:
Ah, I misinterpreted the thread... Sorry... But my point stands rules way as well as lore wise. Let's stop bundling each faction together, lore and rules. I think it's turning the games and stories vanilla.... If custodes are just another set of marines then why isn't everything just marines XD. The answer is because the lore and game would be boring if the factions weren't unique in so many different ways. Everyone is attracted to 40k for different asthetics, atmospheres and levels of superhumaness XD.

Fear not. The Star Gods welcome all to their multi-armed embrace. From the lowest scum in the deepest pit of the darkest Hive World to the rising star of the Emperors Angels. All are welcome to join the cult and gain the many blessings of the Star Gods. To prepare the world and tame it; to call for the Star Gods from the darkness of space to light the way. Abandon your fallen dead Emperor; let his angels fall to the earth and become one with the Cult.


Coming next year - Adepticus Genestelericus - the new legion of the Cult of the Genestealers.

To me the mistake GW made was making the Custodes models more marine like, specifically in the lower leg/foot area. In the old art from the visions of heresy art book there is no question at all that Custodes are something different and special; but for whatever reason GW wanted that bell bottom jeans and combat boot silhouette that marines have to be extended to the Custodes.

Tiberias wrote:

changemod wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
How is this thread still going? OP asked a question and got an answer from at least 5 people. And now people are arguing about semantics again for 2 pages?

Primarchs are way stronger than custodians.
Custodians are stronger than astartes and all of the aforementioned differ quite a bit in how they are made.
/thread

I would imagine that it would be because this is a discussion forum, some people are still interested in some manner of ongoing discussion, and we aren’t wasting your air or anything so you’re complaining about nothing?

Classic dakka....god, I hope no new player/member ever wanders into the general discussion forum.

The matter has been resolved two pages ago, and what happened after wasn't a fruitful discussion, but people trying to prove each other wrong. If you are seriously interested to discuss topics that weren't in OPs question like you claim, nothing is stopping you from creating your own thread to seriously discuss whatever you want.

Yes, I’m sure the new members wandering into the general discussion forum will be positively shocked and scandaled to see... An ongoing discussion?????

I asked my 10 year old cousin if they look similar and he said no. I even did the same with Sanguine Guard, since they are gold, and he said no since they were more similar the Marines.

Obviously only one sample but if a bloody 10 year old can figure it out an adult should be able to.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


With the exception of Bobby G, we really don't have much to go off of for primarch abilities, and even he's a singularly exempt sample. His table stats have zero bearing on fluff arguments. Because then every named character in the game would be T8 with 20 wounds and a 1++. When it comes to literal Primarch fluff, all we have is retold tales from extremely suspect sources. The ones who are currently alive (known) are either Daemon princes, or Cawl tinkered lore that is a total retcon.

Are you aware that there is an entire game line set when all the Primarchs were walking around where as of now I think all of them have stat lines?

And that all of them are more formidable than any Custode, even Constantin Valdor who also has a stat line, who is arguably the greatest Custode ever?

Ah yes, the old "I don't like the Primarch fluff so I'm going to pretend none of it is real" argument lol. I could easily use the same reasoning against Custodes, who are canonically recorded as never having lost a battle regardless of how the battle actually went.

No, we have plenty of Primarch fluff at this point, both from the old Index Astartes articles, to the Horus Heresy series proper, to the FW HH game line.

In all of them the fluff places the Primarchs as the mightiest superhumans the Emperor ever created, far more powerful than even the Custodes.

Provide a single source that claims Custodes are individually superior to Primarchs.

This did make me chuckle.
The initial post makes it sound like a fable and glazed over an entirely system that pivots around primarchs as playable characters.
Also (fluff wise) there is countless amounts on every single primarch.

Just a point on valdor though.
On the table he can actually hold his own in combat with the weaker ones.
A wounded primarch would be wise to keep its distance with him.


As a point to the main note of table vs fluff, just sign out of dakka at this point.
The reason fluff is ignored for the most part when making profiles for the game is for balance.
Vulkan could literally never be killed while in turn, wipe out an entire army on his own.
How do you go about making that balanced?
There’s a reason profiles are limited and cut away from the fluff and it’s a good thing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I asked my 10 year old cousin if they look similar and he said no. I even did the same with Sanguine Guard, since they are gold, and he said no since they were more similar the Marines.

Obviously only one sample but if a bloody 10 year old can figure it out an adult should be able to.

thank you slayer, nice to be well proven right. as I said to someone with NO knowledge of the setting, they're not going to think they look that much alike. yes there are certain design elements in common, but many of those elements are simply elements common in most types of plate armor.