Does the lore really even matter? With the recent dip in lore quality and the more recent lore additions, I'm honestly left asking what's the point anymore? It's like the deeper I dive into the novels, games, pre-history of 40k, and sourcebooks that my appreciation for the setting drops. I know that this is primarily a setting designed around selling miniatures and at the end of the day, that's GW's top priority. However, that just led me to question as to why so many people are even invested in such an expensive hobby or more so what's the point?
If not the lore, is it just pure aesthetics? Are the models really the only reason anyone is here? Buyer's stockholm syndrome, lol? The so called "wonderful community"? The awful rules? I was never here for any of that.
I've got a good understanding of most of the factions, I've read close to 25 Black Library books, read every one of the FW Imperial Armour, read all of the Horus Heresy Black Books, and have caught myself up on most of the new lore like the Indomitus Crusade. The only thing I like anymore are the Leagues of Votann and Orks. That's simply because they have little to no lore on them and GW hasn't had the chance to feth them up. Everything, I used to enjoy has been changed to a point where I either no longer like it or I actively hate it. Like, I used to sympathize with the Night Lords and actually thought their terroristic actions were completely justified. Now, I think they're a bunch of whiny man-children, who just like being edgy for the sake of being edgy.
Tyranids? Blatant xenomorph rip-offs that lose 24/7. Tau? Slowly turning into the Imperium 2.0. Space Marines? Plot armor thicker than steel and portrayed as whiny teens rather than professional inhuman soldiers. Chaos? Bigger joke than the Empire from Star Wars. Necrons? Please don't remind me of the worst faction/lore update in the game's history. Eldar? Ynnead, really living up to that "god of the dead" title cuz he's just as dead in the lore, also Ynnari.
I dunno it's a mid-life wargaming crisis or what? It just sucks I can't enjoy the lore anymore the way I used to without finding something blatantly wrong about it and writing it off as gak. How did you stop hating the lore, if you ever have? Or is it time to look for greener pastures?
The make it your own aspect is what keeps me attracted.
I think I appreciate the lore from more of a bird's eye view. I'm mostly distracted by the writing styles of the authors and their microscopes which I just can't get over. Though I've only a sampling under my belt compared so be your own judge.
The good thing about the lore is you can pretty much pick what interests you and ignore the rest.
I just ignore the modern stuff. Phil Kelly is a hack and his Tau novels are grimderp trash but I don't have to consider them canon, I can stick with the original lore for the faction. The Horus Heresy novels completely miss the point of the Heresy lore but who cares about the primarch soap opera, I can pretend none of it exists and that entire era is still mythology and half truths. Etc.
Adeptekon wrote: The make it your own aspect is what keeps me attracted.
I think I appreciate the lore from more of a bird's eye view. I'm mostly distracted by the writing styles of the authors and their microscopes which I just can't get over. Though I've only a sampling under my belt compared so be your own judge.
The good thing about the lore is you can pretty much pick what interests you and ignore the rest.
I really wish I could ignore it. However, if I so much as glance at a faction I dislike, it immediately brings out all of the negative qualities I equate to bad writing. I have been enjoying making lore a lot more, but I (I wrote a French WW1 Guard Regiment and had a lot of fun. They essentially had the most number of battlefield executions, incompetent commanders, basilisks, and primarily fought Blood Axe Orks) can't get over the feeling my writing is bad or gak, so I'll usually end up scrapping entire army ideas out of a genuine fear of criticism from others. Also, I'm immensely depressed right now, so it ain't helping my writing or self-esteem.
I have a tendency to let things get to me and bad lore is one of them.
You might start by actually reading it. Your claim “tyranids are just xenomorphs” strongly suggests you’ve not read any Tyranid background.
I’d also recommend reading the Votann Codex, because their background is quite incredible. It does a solid job of calling back to their original incarnation, their brief time in the wilderness where they may or may not have been Demiurg, into their current form, whilst being neatly slotted into pre-Imperial history of mankind, with some pretty interesting propositions about those now barely documented days. Super short version? They’re essentially a slave race, engineered to enjoy what they do, and without the capacity to care that they only love what they do because it’s a means of control devised by a now long gone corporations or civilisation.
Primaries are also surprisingly interesting when you read into Cawl’s background. No disagreement his introduction was somewhat botched, but he’s developed nicely. Super short version is it really illustrates how the now monickered First Born really were a rush job. A desperate salvaging of the Primarchs post-abduction. And a reminder that The Emperor was nothing if not a relentless tinkerer. Cawl himself invented nothing. Rather he was able to pick up where the original Astartes left off when they got to a “Good Enough” stage. Using the original project’s notes (which he may or may not have been involved in directly) he completed certain odds and ends, bringing the resulting Primaris Marines arguably closer to what The Emperor originally intended the Primarch’s sons to be.
Engage openly and honestly in lore discussion here on Dakka. No I don’t mean “and simply agree with everything I am say”. I ask only that you take it all onboard.
And a general rule of thumb for life? Don’t focus on anything you don’t enjoy. It gets you nowhere and serves no purpose. I mean, I can moan for Britain when it comes to stuff I don’t like (reality tv, sports, celeb culture, Rick and Morty, The Orville, the media blackout on Rock and Metal music). I just….don’t. I don’t watch it. I don’t discuss it. I do my best to ignore it, instead seeking out things I do enjoy. Nor do I especially care what the next person thinks about stuff I enjoy, as long as they’re not being disingenuous or outright lying. But even then that’s less to do with “how dare they say mean things about thing I like”, and more I have a strong dislike for lies and liars.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You might start by actually reading it. Your claim “tyranids are just xenomorphs” strongly suggests you’ve not read any Tyranid background.
I’d also recommend reading the Votann Codex, because their background is quite incredible. It does a solid job of calling back to their original incarnation, their brief time in the wilderness where they may or may not have been Demiurg, into their current form, whilst being neatly slotted into pre-Imperial history of mankind, with some pretty interesting propositions about those now barely documented days. Super short version? They’re essentially a slave race, engineered to enjoy what they do, and without the capacity to care that they only love what they do because it’s a means of control devised by a now long gone corporations or civilisation.
Primaries are also surprisingly interesting when you read into Cawl’s background. No disagreement his introduction was somewhat botched, but he’s developed nicely. Super short version is it really illustrates how the now monickered First Born really were a rush job. A desperate salvaging of the Primarchs post-abduction. And a reminder that The Emperor was nothing if not a relentless tinkerer. Cawl himself invented nothing. Rather he was able to pick up where the original Astartes left off when they got to a “Good Enough” stage. Using the original project’s notes (which he may or may not have been involved in directly) he completed certain odds and ends, bringing the resulting Primaris Marines arguably closer to what The Emperor originally intended the Primarch’s sons to be.
Engage openly and honestly in lore discussion here on Dakka. No I don’t mean “and simply agree with everything I am say”. I ask only that you take it all onboard.
And a general rule of thumb for life? Don’t focus on anything you don’t enjoy. It gets you nowhere and serves no purpose. I mean, I can moan for Britain when it comes to stuff I don’t like (reality tv, sports, celeb culture, Rick and Morty, The Orville, the media blackout on Rock and Metal music). I just….don’t. I don’t watch it. I don’t discuss it. I do my best to ignore it, instead seeking out things I do enjoy. Nor do I especially care what the next person thinks about stuff I enjoy, as long as they’re not being disingenuous or outright lying. But even then that’s less to do with “how dare they say mean things about thing I like”, and more I have a strong dislike for lies and liars.
The Tyranids quote was hyperbole. Of course there is more too them, however, they suffer from the exact same problems that xenomorphs do. It's an enemy for good guys to shoot at in droves rather than an unstoppable tide out of Lovecraft's wildest dreams. That's a awfully hostile way to reply, but I expected this type of pushback. They're still uncomfortably similar either way: both have a hive mind, fethed up life cycles, are highly adaptable to any environment, and have different types of biological lifeforms made for specific purposes (Xenos got Praetorians, Runners, Crushers, and Royal Facehuggers).
I'm a quarter of the way into Votann codex. I already said I liked them.
Primaris were poorly implemented, simple as that. If it's poorly implemented in the first place, I'm not going to be very invested to begin with and will have to force myself to read it. I'll try reading some of Cawl's stuff, but will most likely dislike it. I never really touched Ad-Mech in general (Outside of the Black Books) because there aesthetic was off to what I think they should look like and I was never really interested in them too begin with (Mechanicum was like one of the first few novels I skipped in the Heresy). Sounds, like massive damage control to me. I'll give it a try though.
It's kind of hard to not focus on something when it's on your mind most of time. I love 40k, but god do I fething hate it as well. Like, I said above I have a hard, hard time ignoring lore blunders and usually too much bad writing will ruin something for me entirely. Again, I like Votann and Orks, but really wish I could enjoy (Night Lords, Tyranids, Tau, and The Imperium in general again) the old stuff I liked again.
Like any fan of any long-running media (Star Wars, Star Trek, comics...) you complain loudly about how it was better back when you liked it and disregard anything that came later.
Again I don’t think you’ve read any Tyranid background. Not to mention you don’t seem aware of the timeline for Nids and Xenomorphs.
Prior to Alien 3? We saw a total of four Xenomorph creatures. Egg. Facehugger. Alien. Alien Queen.
Tyranids were a bioengineered race from the get go. Their initial formalised army list and background arrived, to the best of my knowledge, in White Dwarf 145, January 1992. That same issue (which I happen to have on hand) also includes Genestealer Hybrids. Indeed Hybrids arrived in the lore no later than 1990, in the Genestealer expansion for Space Hulk.
Xenomorphs wouldn’t get “the host informs the bug” until Alien 3 released in May 1992. And it wouldn’t get anything akin to Hybrids until the Colonial Marines comic in 1994.
So the only commonality between Nids and Xenomorphs? They’re space bug things with a hive mind who have exoskeletons. Space Ants, if you will. But really? That’s about it. Indeed Tyranids have a far greater background, and their own means of interstellar travel.
To claim stuff introduced to the Alien franchise after Tyranids were properly codified in the run up to 2nd Ed has been stolen from Aliens is up there with “40K just ripped off StarCraft”.
Are xenomorphs a hive-mind? I never got that impression. I mean, yes they serve the queen but in an insect sort of way, not like actually psychic/telepathically connected.
Tyranids are, at least in my experience, pretty unique. Yes they're drawn from the Bugs from Starship Troopers, but they evolved into the idea of an entire predatory ecosystem-as-organism which feels pretty unique.
Stories written with/about them are often bad because many of the BL authors are bad. So I don't read much BL.
Part of growing up is realizing that expanded universe lore in every franchise is almost always bad and has always been mostly bad. Although much of the whining about certain aspects of 40k lore is just whining that the lore wasn't what the fan expected it to be and they are angry their headcanon has been disproven.
Anyway, consider I don't know, reading a real book or something? I have read like one 40k book in the past year and I am completely at peace with that.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Again I don’t think you’ve read any Tyranid background. Not to mention you don’t seem aware of the timeline for Nids and Xenomorphs.
Prior to Alien 3? We saw a total of four Xenomorph creatures. Egg. Facehugger. Alien. Alien Queen.
Tyranids were a bioengineered race from the get go. Their initial formalised army list and background arrived, to the best of my knowledge, in White Dwarf 145, January 1992. That same issue (which I happen to have on hand) also includes Genestealer Hybrids. Indeed Hybrids arrived in the lore no later than 1990, in the Genestealer expansion for Space Hulk.
Xenomorphs wouldn’t get “the host informs the bug” until Alien 3 released in May 1992. And it wouldn’t get anything akin to Hybrids until the Colonial Marines comic in 1994.
So the only commonality between Nids and Xenomorphs? They’re space bug things with a hive mind who have exoskeletons. Space Ants, if you will. But really? That’s about it. Indeed Tyranids have a far greater background, and their own means of interstellar travel.
To claim stuff introduced to the Alien franchise after Tyranids were properly codified in the run up to 2nd Ed has been stolen from Aliens is up there with “40K just ripped off StarCraft”.
I wonder what this strange book on my desk called, "Codex: Tyranids" is about? Has this ominous line on the spine of it that says "The Great Beast is come. The Devourer of Worlds.". Also, has this weird quote by some old fart named Czevak on
the back of it.
That's still four creatures. Your also not separating warriors from drones (the xeno in the 1979 film is not the same as the xenos in the 1986 film). Also, leaving out that they are both species that are highly adaptable to any given environment. The xenomorph has also been shown to be highly adaptive of it's surroundings ("WHAT DO YOU MEAN THEY CUT THE POWER! HOW COULD THEY CUT THE POWER MAN! THERE ANIMALS!" - William Hudson, Aliens (1986)) before the dates you listed. I mean they went down to the atmospheric processor because it was a warm and dry environment to set up there nest, killed over 150 colonists with like 10-12 initially getting infected, cut the fething power, and had enough smarts to back off when Ripley threatened their young.
The intent was always there and was only fully fleshed out by Alien 3. So, yes the basic idea for a Genestealer and the Tyranids has it's roots in the Alien franchise. They both even have a similiar aesthetic design with dorsal ridges, domed heads, secondary mouths, and a Giger-esque style to their exoskeletons.
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Insectum7 wrote: Are xenomorphs a hive-mind? I never got that impression. I mean, yes they serve the queen but in an insect sort of way, not like actually psychic/telepathically connected.
Tyranids are, at least in my experience, pretty unique. Yes they're drawn from the Bugs from Starship Troopers, but they evolved into the idea of an entire predatory ecosystem-as-organism which feels pretty unique.
Stories written with/about them are often bad because many of the BL authors are bad. So I don't read much BL.
God, I love me some xenomorphs. They're definitely not psychic or telepathic. However, they're all hyper-intelligent (enough to know that power runs through power lines thus generating light and that cutting it, disables it) and certainly a hive-mind in the sense that the only thing they're collectively focused on is procreating as much as possible/keeping the queen's chamber safe..
I can see the similarities with the Bugs from Starship Troopers, but Genestealers are where I start to question the author's creative liberties a little bit. The whole Genestealer's Kiss just sounds like the reproductive cycle of a facehugger, but slightly rehashed.
Also, yeah I agree. BL is trash for the most part.
If I hate something I either strive to understand why I hate it and thus why it might annoy me and then see if that is factual or not.
The other option is to ignore it if its only one part of something I enjoy and to instead focus on the parts I do enjoy. The lore might not be for you right now and you might prefer the older lore. Great go read it; there's mountains of it enough to keep you engaged for utterly ages. Or perhaps put the lore to one side and focus on other areas of the game and hobby.
And if not then perhaps step out from 40K entirely into something else.
One thing I've noticed over the years is that people have interests and focuses that shift over time and when this happens within a hobby the mind/person can often fight it hard. They strive to remain within the thing that once brought them joy; even though it is no longer doing so and could even be bringing them anger and frustration with what they perceive as failings. Trying to fight that is hard when its a hobby and it can make something so un-fun that you end up having a massive breakdown in the future and never return.
Sometimes the best thing is to step back and try other things; get a fresh take. Perhaps a different game; a different lore; a different hobby entirely. Sometimes just stepping away for a short while recharges your interest.
Insectum7 wrote: Are xenomorphs a hive-mind? I never got that impression. I mean, yes they serve the queen but in an insect sort of way, not like actually psychic/telepathically connected.
Tyranids are, at least in my experience, pretty unique. Yes they're drawn from the Bugs from Starship Troopers, but they evolved into the idea of an entire predatory ecosystem-as-organism which feels pretty unique.
Stories written with/about them are often bad because many of the BL authors are bad. So I don't read much BL.
Xenomorph lore depends where you take it from. The original 4 films, and honestly most of the newer ones, don't actually tell us much about them. We basically deal with either loan individuals or very small very new broods; with most of the interaction being basic sneaking, hunting, killing on both sides.
If you dip into the original comics they flesh out the Xenomorphs a lot lot more. To the point where yes they do exhibit psy capacity as well as many other traits.
As for Tyranids, they are like a lot of 40K. A grab-bag of multiple alien influences of the day mixed up and thrown out and adapted over time.
Heck they inspired the Zerg of Starcraft who then inspired the Tyranids right back - just look at those Hydralisks from Starcraft and the concept of a Ravener, esp some of the original head designs and such.
You can certainly see some of the influences, heck the original Hormagaunts were a Xenomorph with lance-arms; meanwhile Genestealers copy out a lot of the concepts of infection and hosts. However they take a different path in that genestealers don't become their host; their hosts become genestealers (to a greater degree over time as the cult matures).
So yeah you can see elements of Xenomorphs, Bugs from Starship Troopers, Zerg and dozens of other films and books and stuff.
Insectum7 wrote: ^The Genestealer and xenomorph are absolutely related, sure. The greater Tyranid superorganism though, seemingly much less so.
Edit: The whole genestealer life cycle thing is, imo, waaaay creepier and more subversive.
Eh, different strokes for different folks. I find xenomorphs scarier because they play off more primal fears: a lifeform far more intelligent than you, fear or violation, the dark, and the unknown.
I can't take Genestealer Cults seriously when I see they're heads. I'm like, "did that insane priest just glue a purple sea shell to his forehead? OH gak HE'S GOT AN AUTOGUN!". I am glad that Tyranids are getting a model update though, they needed it badly. Termagants actually look terrifying now.
Adeptekon wrote:The make it your own aspect is what keeps me attracted.
I think I appreciate the lore from more of a bird's eye view. I'm mostly distracted by the writing styles of the authors and their microscopes which I just can't get over. Though I've only a sampling under my belt compared so be your own judge.
The good thing about the lore is you can pretty much pick what interests you and ignore the rest.
AnomanderRake wrote:Like any fan of any long-running media (Star Wars, Star Trek, comics...) you complain loudly about how it was better back when you liked it and disregard anything that came later.
I think these quotes address it pretty well. 40k is inspired by a ton of different things and strikes a bunch of different tones at different times. The lore has so many little nooks and crannies on top of the main elements that you'll probably find something you dislike eventually.
The trick, I think, is to accept that not every single piece of the lore is going to be your cup of tea and just give your permission to have fun with the parts you do like.
Batman has been around a long time. A lot of people like goofy Adam West Batman. A lot of people like hyper-edgy Frank Miller Batman. Some people like might both, but the existence of Frank Miller Batman doesn't have to ruin all of Batman for the Adam West fans and vice versa.
It also helps, I think, to not get caught up in the setting/factions on a macro level. Give yourself permission to zoom in on the little corner of the galaxy you like even if you have to make that corner up yourself. If you liked the Night Lords until you read a novel with some angsty edge lords that drove you nuts, make up your own warband whose personalities are more to your taste. Don't like loyalist marines being wrapped in plot armor? Play a dying chapter that seems to be more grounded and bereft of the plot armor found in other corners of the galaxy. Don't like tau slowly sliding into a repeat of the imperium's fate? Focus on the exploits of a chunk of the empire that's trying avoid doing just that, and let your games on the tabletop be an attempt to keep that effort alive.
Abanshee wrote:
Insectum7 wrote: ^The Genestealer and xenomorph are absolutely related, sure. The greater Tyranid superorganism though, seemingly much less so.
Edit: The whole genestealer life cycle thing is, imo, waaaay creepier and more subversive.
Eh, different strokes for different folks. I find xenomorphs scarier because they play off more primal fears: a lifeform far more intelligent than you, fear or violation, the dark, and the unknown.
I can't take Genestealer Cults seriously when I see they're heads. I'm like, "did that insane priest just glue a purple sea shell to his forehead? OH gak HE'S GOT AN AUTOGUN!". I am glad that Tyranids are getting a model update though, they needed it badly. Termagants actually look terrifying now.
I get the Star Trek foreheads not working for you. Personally, I have to dig up all the illustrations with bizarre-looking 40k humans to suspend my disbelief and accept that these guys were able to "blend in" with the larger populace. But you have to admit that all those elements you say you like are present:
Smarter than you = weird alien cunning/unnerving and genuinely alien intellect of the patriarch.
Fear of violation = the genestealer's kiss; reasonably comparable to face huggers.
The dark = ... the dark. I mean, genestealers are sneaky. They crawl around in air vents and pop out of shadows. This is absolutely as true for genestealers as it is for xenomorphs.
The unknown = see above about the patriarch. Like, in addition to (eventually) being linked to the hive mind's weirdness, this guy sits on a pile of organic... stuff that is essentially magical (see the GSC relics) and can straight up manifest psychic familiars into existence.
Plus, you have that whole... creepy small town cult that will sacrifice you to the corn god vibes mixed with some Innsmouth fish-man energy.
Insectum7 wrote: ^The Genestealer and xenomorph are absolutely related, sure. The greater Tyranid superorganism though, seemingly much less so.
Edit: The whole genestealer life cycle thing is, imo, waaaay creepier and more subversive.
Eh, different strokes for different folks. I find xenomorphs scarier because they play off more primal fears: a lifeform far more intelligent than you, fear or violation, the dark, and the unknown.
I can't take Genestealer Cults seriously when I see they're heads. I'm like, "did that insane priest just glue a purple sea shell to his forehead? OH gak HE'S GOT AN AUTOGUN!". I am glad that Tyranids are getting a model update though, they needed it badly. Termagants actually look terrifying now.
Oh don't get me wrong. I love the xenomorph. I bought the HR Giger Alien design book back in high school in the early 90's. I could have recited Aliens to you. I had the sourcebook to the RPG, a smattering of comics, plus a number of the Halcyon model kits. Oh, and a couple miniatures too. I still have some of the eggs in lead, I think.
Tyranids for me have grown into a very separate thing, and feel very different even though they have similar roots. The integrated bio-weapons, the explicit hive mind, the creation of new species by intent, the star spanning galactic threat and the one-organism-with-many-forms thing.
Maybe the comics align the two more together, I wouldn't be surprised if there were cross pollination there. I'm might be more of a purist there though, I'm more inclined to go with the movies as the primary sources of canon.
Edit: Also Tyranids get a big pass from me just because they're both not humanoid and on a different biometric scale. Every faction being both humanoid and similarly sized is honestly pretty dumb from a science fiction perspective. OG Tyranid Warriors absolutely towered over everybody else, which was refreshing.
Speaking of Xenomorphs, I personally like how the most recent Alien movies switch the lore up (that the Xenomorphs are actually a living weapon created by a madman). So no, I'm not seeing how they are like Tyranids or Genestealers anymore..
As for the other lore stuff you're fed up with, don't know what to tell you.. I stopped reading BL books by the time I was around twenty, as it felt like it was mostly just dross and didn't really offer anything more to the setting than the rulebooks themselves. To this day, I haven't really bothered to deep dive into the lore, as I'd probably just feel annoyed by it. IMHO, the less I know about the universe of the 41st Millennium, the bigger and more filled with possibility it seems to me..
TL;DR - yeh, I'm only in it for the miniatures these days
As far as 40k s concerned, the lore I mean, I skip what I don"t like. As I proudly repeat: I live in the past, never updated my headcannon to newer lore. Good thing is it's fine, no lore police has been breaking into my house and the world hasn't crumble yet because of it. Everything is fine.
I retain the idea of 40k prior to gathering storm etc, that it is a sandbox to go wild with. Not as storyline. This is not true, as officially the story advances. But I don't give a gak and pretend it is not. And we keep making our slowed stories in said sandbox and have tons of fun doing so.
Secondly, why be in the hobby, I mean waraming at large? There are so many reasons. I like tinkering to get terrain. I like painting. I like having that excuse to gather with friends and have a beer, a laugh, around thronwing dices and imagining stories of our own. Making up rules. Delving into historical concerns in historical wargames... And many more.
I can't tell you how to not hate the lore besides this, making your head canon.
If you can't because you value officially licensed things, get another game, setting, or hobby you enjoy. We can all agree day to day life has got enough things to ruin your day already, don't let your relief/fun ruin it as well!
Your right. The recent lore has been more bad than good. Especially primaris wich is basically embarising bad.
Come on you mean to tell me the imperium of man would allow a tech heritic like cawl to get away with making thousands of new big space marines? What was the assassinorum doing alowing somthing like this? Somthing like this would be impossible to get away with it's just bad writing. Also the imperium wouldn't even allow primaris.
They would kill them all it's a religous state. You can't improve on the work of God in a religous state. The inquisition would have found out and killed them. The high lords would have at least made a solid attempt at killing guilliman.
This is supposed to be a dark gritty setting and it's not even as dark as modern life anymore. Embarrassing really.
Now having said that their are still some interesting lore bits around. Belisarius cawl is a cool in the book. The great works, just fun to read about. I liked the lords of silence (a death guard book.
The setting no longer makes sense in an in univers way. Judging by what you have said I would step away for 5-10years. If your still alive and have any intrest by then check back in.
Does the lore really even matter? With the recent dip in lore quality and the more recent lore additions, I'm honestly left asking what's the point anymore? It's like the deeper I dive into the novels, games, pre-history of 40k, and sourcebooks that my appreciation for the setting drops. I know that this is primarily a setting designed around selling miniatures and at the end of the day, that's GW's top priority. However, that just led me to question as to why so many people are even invested in such an expensive hobby or more so what's the point?
Everything prior to the gathering storm is the lore, everything afterword is fanfic by people who do not understand the universe. they inherited it but do not understand the setting and just listen to the marketing department. It is why our group have gone back to playing hybrid 5th edition with a heavy dose of 3rd and 4th edition codexes written by the people who created the setting. they pretty much all left (Andy is free lance, Phil runs warlord games etc..)
there are only 3 or 4 5th ed codexes we like and only 2 or 3 in 7th because the factions didn't exist prior to that. but hey they are all cross compatible with 5th. most players go back to 3rd and 4th ed to get the full immersion into the setting. no chaos player worth his spikes will touch anything other than the 3.5 chaos codex outside of importing a few things into it from say the 4th ed demon codex. same with black templar. there is only the 4th ed codex.
I honestly do not give a feth anymore about what GW does with the game. i have more than enough minis to play oldhammer and GW will never mess with it again.
Gw lore is a mixed bag. Some is good, some is stupid. I advice to not take it too seriously. I lean more on head canon and my own imagination to fill in gaps, and I disregard parts that lessens the setting.
Like for example a marine chapter being a 1000 dudes, yeah, it does not matter how awesome they are, they wont be relevant in the galactic scheme, or they wont be practical in games. Maybe 1 000 000 dudes per chapter makes more sense in a galactic conflict, and at least a couple of chapters per system.
Like for example a marine chapter being a 1000 dudes, yeah, it does not matter how awesome they are, they wont be relevant in the galactic scheme
Thats the point. Although it is also a major contention I have with how 40k lore is written currently because Space Marines were never intended to be Astartes: Galaxy Police. They're SUPPOSED to be semi-mythical figures viewed as LITERAL angels of the Emperor by a huge, huge majority of the Imperium. They operate in small squads and make surgical strikes in most conflicts. If they need to deploy as an entire army then the threat is star system threateningly serious and they'll probably cause just as much damage as the threat to the locals but as long as the threat is dead they don't care about things like infrastructure or homes. But the way GW writes it's lore they're like bouncers at a night club and will show up for a punch up in a supermarket car park. Basically the lore should be that every conflict in the Imperium is pretty much resolved by the Guard like 99% of the time and Space Marines will only turn up is things are going VERY badly. How it's ACTUALLY written is that Space Marines seem to be on their way to every minor scuffle before it's even started, save the day from the inept and pointless Guard and jet off into the sunset and everyone lives happily ever after.
Adeptekon wrote: The make it your own aspect is what keeps me attracted.
I'm puzzled that you says it keeps you attracted, given that GW has basically removed the whole 'your dudes' aspect entirely, such that there's no real difference between special characters (who can't be customised because they represent particular individuals) and generic characters (who also can' be customised because GW can't be arsed giving them options anymore).
vipoid wrote: I'm puzzled that you says it keeps you attracted, given that GW has basically removed the whole 'your dudes' aspect entirely, such that there's no real difference between special characters (who can't be customised because they represent particular individuals) and generic characters (who also can' be customised because GW can't be arsed giving them options anymore).
Special characters are just stats, you can call them whatever you like.
Like for example a marine chapter being a 1000 dudes, yeah, it does not matter how awesome they are, they wont be relevant in the galactic scheme
Thats the point. Although it is also a major contention I have with how 40k lore is written currently because Space Marines were never intended to be Astartes: Galaxy Police. They're SUPPOSED to be semi-mythical figures viewed as LITERAL angels of the Emperor by a huge, huge majority of the Imperium. They operate in small squads and make surgical strikes in most conflicts. If they need to deploy as an entire army then the threat is star system threateningly serious and they'll probably cause just as much damage as the threat to the locals but as long as the threat is dead they don't care about things like infrastructure or homes. But the way GW writes it's lore they're like bouncers at a night club and will show up for a punch up in a supermarket car park. Basically the lore should be that every conflict in the Imperium is pretty much resolved by the Guard like 99% of the time and Space Marines will only turn up is things are going VERY badly. How it's ACTUALLY written is that Space Marines seem to be on their way to every minor scuffle before it's even started, save the day from the inept and pointless Guard and jet off into the sunset and everyone lives happily ever after.
This is definitely missing from a lot of modern 40k lore. Such things, were far more prevalent in Imperial Armour with conflicts like the Orphean War, Taros Campaign, and Siege of Vraks. Most of these conflicts were being fought by the Imperial Guard with Space Marine chapters usually showing up in the latter stages of the conflict. Unless, were talking about Badab War, but that was a Space Marines royal rumble. The first Space Marine game also shows this excellently with Captain Titus' chapter
coming in to reinforce the Cadians whom have been fighting on the surface longer than the marines have and then later the Blood Ravens join in on the fun as the Chaos Marines finally start popping up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: @OP: Regarding your problems with 8th Legion lore: Which books on the 8th Legion have you seen reading? And by which particular author?
I know this might piss you off and probably any other fellow brothers of the Legion around, but please don't flay me just yet. Hear me out. Aaron-Dembski Bowden. I think he's a great dude, but after reading some of his stuff in the Heresy era I have grown to dislike his writing. I've read all of the Night Lords Trilogy (ADB at his best), Savage Weapons (I hate this one for how pointless it is), Prince of Crows (I hate this one, it's pure edge), The Abyssal Edge (I liked it for background's sake), The Long Night (I AM JUDGEMENT! TIER). I also really, really dislike the Primarch Novel for one reason: Curze killing the suicidal girl. I'm extremely mentally ill myself and it kind of came off as the author trying to make Curze as evil as possible. I adore their Horus Heresy Black Book though.
Adeptekon wrote:The make it your own aspect is what keeps me attracted.
I think I appreciate the lore from more of a bird's eye view. I'm mostly distracted by the writing styles of the authors and their microscopes which I just can't get over. Though I've only a sampling under my belt compared so be your own judge.
The good thing about the lore is you can pretty much pick what interests you and ignore the rest.
AnomanderRake wrote:Like any fan of any long-running media (Star Wars, Star Trek, comics...) you complain loudly about how it was better back when you liked it and disregard anything that came later.
I think these quotes address it pretty well. 40k is inspired by a ton of different things and strikes a bunch of different tones at different times. The lore has so many little nooks and crannies on top of the main elements that you'll probably find something you dislike eventually.
The trick, I think, is to accept that not every single piece of the lore is going to be your cup of tea and just give your permission to have fun with the parts you do like.
Batman has been around a long time. A lot of people like goofy Adam West Batman. A lot of people like hyper-edgy Frank Miller Batman. Some people like might both, but the existence of Frank Miller Batman doesn't have to ruin all of Batman for the Adam West fans and vice versa.
It also helps, I think, to not get caught up in the setting/factions on a macro level. Give yourself permission to zoom in on the little corner of the galaxy you like even if you have to make that corner up yourself. If you liked the Night Lords until you read a novel with some angsty edge lords that drove you nuts, make up your own warband whose personalities are more to your taste. Don't like loyalist marines being wrapped in plot armor? Play a dying chapter that seems to be more grounded and bereft of the plot armor found in other corners of the galaxy. Don't like tau slowly sliding into a repeat of the imperium's fate? Focus on the exploits of a chunk of the empire that's trying avoid doing just that, and let your games on the tabletop be an attempt to keep that effort alive.
Abanshee wrote:
Insectum7 wrote: ^The Genestealer and xenomorph are absolutely related, sure. The greater Tyranid superorganism though, seemingly much less so.
Edit: The whole genestealer life cycle thing is, imo, waaaay creepier and more subversive.
Eh, different strokes for different folks. I find xenomorphs scarier because they play off more primal fears: a lifeform far more intelligent than you, fear or violation, the dark, and the unknown.
I can't take Genestealer Cults seriously when I see they're heads. I'm like, "did that insane priest just glue a purple sea shell to his forehead? OH gak HE'S GOT AN AUTOGUN!". I am glad that Tyranids are getting a model update though, they needed it badly. Termagants actually look terrifying now.
I get the Star Trek foreheads not working for you. Personally, I have to dig up all the illustrations with bizarre-looking 40k humans to suspend my disbelief and accept that these guys were able to "blend in" with the larger populace. But you have to admit that all those elements you say you like are present:
Smarter than you = weird alien cunning/unnerving and genuinely alien intellect of the patriarch.
Fear of violation = the genestealer's kiss; reasonably comparable to face huggers.
The dark = ... the dark. I mean, genestealers are sneaky. They crawl around in air vents and pop out of shadows. This is absolutely as true for genestealers as it is for xenomorphs.
The unknown = see above about the patriarch. Like, in addition to (eventually) being linked to the hive mind's weirdness, this guy sits on a pile of organic... stuff that is essentially magical (see the GSC relics) and can straight up manifest psychic familiars into existence.
Plus, you have that whole... creepy small town cult that will sacrifice you to the corn god vibes mixed with some Innsmouth fish-man energy.
Oh, theres nothing wrong with the Cults per say. It's just there a bit less sexually disgusting than the xenomorphs are and also less animalistic in nature. Xenomorphs are also much smarter (Hudson is actually a pretty clever character in the series for coming up with how they exactly operate when he's theorizing what the hive is like. Also, his line about them cutting the power is pure nightmare fuel because it implies they know far more than they appear to about basically everything).
Also, they are literal soulless legions of children born from forced insemination that only have one goal: to spread as much of their ilk as possible. However, yeah they share a gak ton of similiarities, I wont lie. Cults are the psychic Innsmouth cult that usurp entire worlds for their "star gods" and the Xenomorphs are hyper-intelligent parasitic organisms that are born through rape. The whole concept of a xenomorph is just a little more revolting due to their negative sexual elements to me.
Insectum7 wrote: ^The Genestealer and xenomorph are absolutely related, sure. The greater Tyranid superorganism though, seemingly much less so.
Edit: The whole genestealer life cycle thing is, imo, waaaay creepier and more subversive.
Eh, different strokes for different folks. I find xenomorphs scarier because they play off more primal fears: a lifeform far more intelligent than you, fear or violation, the dark, and the unknown.
I can't take Genestealer Cults seriously when I see they're heads. I'm like, "did that insane priest just glue a purple sea shell to his forehead? OH gak HE'S GOT AN AUTOGUN!". I am glad that Tyranids are getting a model update though, they needed it badly. Termagants actually look terrifying now.
Oh don't get me wrong. I love the xenomorph. I bought the HR Giger Alien design book back in high school in the early 90's. I could have recited Aliens to you. I had the sourcebook to the RPG, a smattering of comics, plus a number of the Halcyon model kits. Oh, and a couple miniatures too. I still have some of the eggs in lead, I think.
Tyranids for me have grown into a very separate thing, and feel very different even though they have similar roots. The integrated bio-weapons, the explicit hive mind, the creation of new species by intent, the star spanning galactic threat and the one-organism-with-many-forms thing.
Maybe the comics align the two more together, I wouldn't be surprised if there were cross pollination there. I'm might be more of a purist there though, I'm more inclined to go with the movies as the primary sources of canon.
Edit: Also Tyranids get a big pass from me just because they're both not humanoid and on a different biometric scale. Every faction being both humanoid and similarly sized is honestly pretty dumb from a science fiction perspective. OG Tyranid Warriors absolutely towered over everybody else, which was refreshing.
They overlap a little now (I believe I read somewhere that Queens have like crazy high IQ scores), but yeah I agree they're two separate things at this point.
I do agree though that Tyranids are like the only non-humanoid faction thus it makes them much more aesthetically unique to all the others.
Adeptekon wrote: The make it your own aspect is what keeps me attracted.
I'm puzzled that you says it keeps you attracted, given that GW has basically removed the whole 'your dudes' aspect entirely, such that there's no real difference between special characters (who can't be customised because they represent particular individuals) and generic characters (who also can' be customised because GW can't be arsed giving them options anymore).
This killed a lot of the hobbying aspect for me, but a lot of armies still have variety in their kits. So, I guess it's not utterly unbearable, but it's annoying having to get multiple kits/bits for conversions/customization's sake.
vipoid wrote: I'm puzzled that you says it keeps you attracted, given that GW has basically removed the whole 'your dudes' aspect entirely, such that there's no real difference between special characters (who can't be customised because they represent particular individuals) and generic characters (who also can' be customised because GW can't be arsed giving them options anymore).
Special characters are just stats, you can call them whatever you like.
What I think he's trying to articulate is that their isn't much option to customize your units or characters like there was with older kits in previous editions. You have a lot of mono-pose models now and your options are very limited, as to what sort of sub-factions that you can portray on the tabletop.
Adeptekon wrote:The make it your own aspect is what keeps me attracted.
I think I appreciate the lore from more of a bird's eye view. I'm mostly distracted by the writing styles of the authors and their microscopes which I just can't get over. Though I've only a sampling under my belt compared so be your own judge.
The good thing about the lore is you can pretty much pick what interests you and ignore the rest.
AnomanderRake wrote:Like any fan of any long-running media (Star Wars, Star Trek, comics...) you complain loudly about how it was better back when you liked it and disregard anything that came later.
I think these quotes address it pretty well. 40k is inspired by a ton of different things and strikes a bunch of different tones at different times. The lore has so many little nooks and crannies on top of the main elements that you'll probably find something you dislike eventually.
The trick, I think, is to accept that not every single piece of the lore is going to be your cup of tea and just give your permission to have fun with the parts you do like.
Batman has been around a long time. A lot of people like goofy Adam West Batman. A lot of people like hyper-edgy Frank Miller Batman. Some people like might both, but the existence of Frank Miller Batman doesn't have to ruin all of Batman for the Adam West fans and vice versa.
It also helps, I think, to not get caught up in the setting/factions on a macro level. Give yourself permission to zoom in on the little corner of the galaxy you like even if you have to make that corner up yourself. If you liked the Night Lords until you read a novel with some angsty edge lords that drove you nuts, make up your own warband whose personalities are more to your taste. Don't like loyalist marines being wrapped in plot armor? Play a dying chapter that seems to be more grounded and bereft of the plot armor found in other corners of the galaxy. Don't like tau slowly sliding into a repeat of the imperium's fate? Focus on the exploits of a chunk of the empire that's trying avoid doing just that, and let your games on the tabletop be an attempt to keep that effort alive.
Abanshee wrote:
Insectum7 wrote: ^The Genestealer and xenomorph are absolutely related, sure. The greater Tyranid superorganism though, seemingly much less so.
Edit: The whole genestealer life cycle thing is, imo, waaaay creepier and more subversive.
Eh, different strokes for different folks. I find xenomorphs scarier because they play off more primal fears: a lifeform far more intelligent than you, fear or violation, the dark, and the unknown.
I can't take Genestealer Cults seriously when I see they're heads. I'm like, "did that insane priest just glue a purple sea shell to his forehead? OH gak HE'S GOT AN AUTOGUN!". I am glad that Tyranids are getting a model update though, they needed it badly. Termagants actually look terrifying now.
I get the Star Trek foreheads not working for you. Personally, I have to dig up all the illustrations with bizarre-looking 40k humans to suspend my disbelief and accept that these guys were able to "blend in" with the larger populace. But you have to admit that all those elements you say you like are present:
Smarter than you = weird alien cunning/unnerving and genuinely alien intellect of the patriarch.
Fear of violation = the genestealer's kiss; reasonably comparable to face huggers.
The dark = ... the dark. I mean, genestealers are sneaky. They crawl around in air vents and pop out of shadows. This is absolutely as true for genestealers as it is for xenomorphs.
The unknown = see above about the patriarch. Like, in addition to (eventually) being linked to the hive mind's weirdness, this guy sits on a pile of organic... stuff that is essentially magical (see the GSC relics) and can straight up manifest psychic familiars into existence.
Plus, you have that whole... creepy small town cult that will sacrifice you to the corn god vibes mixed with some Innsmouth fish-man energy.
Oh, theres nothing wrong with the Cults per say. It's just there a bit less sexually disgusting than the xenomorphs are and also less animalistic in nature. Xenomorphs are also much smarter (Hudson is actually a pretty clever character in the series for coming up with how they exactly operate when he's theorizing what the hive is like. Also, his line about them cutting the power is pure nightmare fuel because it implies they know far more than they appear to about basically everything).
Also, they are literal soulless legions of children born from forced insemination that only have one goal: to spread as much of their ilk as possible. However, yeah they share a gak ton of similiarities, I wont lie. Cults are the psychic Innsmouth cult that usurp entire worlds for their "star gods" and the Xenomorphs are hyper-intelligent parasitic organisms that are born through rape. The whole concept of a xenomorph is just a little more revolting due to their negative sexual elements to me.
I'd argue genestealer cults are smarter considering that they form organised groups within human society from the very bottom all the way to the top. They basically infiltrate a world and keep expanding and taking over as much as they can with the intention that they will eventually rise up to control the whole world, system and as much as they can spread too before they are either destroyed or consumed. They can operate machines, build machines, hatch plots, rule vast swathes of territory. Genstealer Cults are very smart and would out-smart a Xenomorph force.
In general Xenos are pretty smart predators and do work things out; but they don't tend to be seen operating machinery outside of very basic concepts. They are also often seen as "OMG this thing is smart" more in the way raptors were in Jurassic Park. It's an "animal/beast" that humans greatly underestimate because its not human. So when it does basic predatory hunting or such they are shocked. It's part of the mythos that can lose some luster when you step back and realise that people really shouldn't be shocked that an alien from space that lived on a starship can avoid fire; hunt; predate on people and not just kill itself mindlessly (and yet that's just what they almost did against the auto-cannon in Alien 2).
Adeptekon wrote:The make it your own aspect is what keeps me attracted.
I think I appreciate the lore from more of a bird's eye view. I'm mostly distracted by the writing styles of the authors and their microscopes which I just can't get over. Though I've only a sampling under my belt compared so be your own judge.
The good thing about the lore is you can pretty much pick what interests you and ignore the rest.
AnomanderRake wrote:Like any fan of any long-running media (Star Wars, Star Trek, comics...) you complain loudly about how it was better back when you liked it and disregard anything that came later.
I think these quotes address it pretty well. 40k is inspired by a ton of different things and strikes a bunch of different tones at different times. The lore has so many little nooks and crannies on top of the main elements that you'll probably find something you dislike eventually.
The trick, I think, is to accept that not every single piece of the lore is going to be your cup of tea and just give your permission to have fun with the parts you do like.
Batman has been around a long time. A lot of people like goofy Adam West Batman. A lot of people like hyper-edgy Frank Miller Batman. Some people like might both, but the existence of Frank Miller Batman doesn't have to ruin all of Batman for the Adam West fans and vice versa.
It also helps, I think, to not get caught up in the setting/factions on a macro level. Give yourself permission to zoom in on the little corner of the galaxy you like even if you have to make that corner up yourself. If you liked the Night Lords until you read a novel with some angsty edge lords that drove you nuts, make up your own warband whose personalities are more to your taste. Don't like loyalist marines being wrapped in plot armor? Play a dying chapter that seems to be more grounded and bereft of the plot armor found in other corners of the galaxy. Don't like tau slowly sliding into a repeat of the imperium's fate? Focus on the exploits of a chunk of the empire that's trying avoid doing just that, and let your games on the tabletop be an attempt to keep that effort alive.
Abanshee wrote:
Insectum7 wrote: ^The Genestealer and xenomorph are absolutely related, sure. The greater Tyranid superorganism though, seemingly much less so.
Edit: The whole genestealer life cycle thing is, imo, waaaay creepier and more subversive.
Eh, different strokes for different folks. I find xenomorphs scarier because they play off more primal fears: a lifeform far more intelligent than you, fear or violation, the dark, and the unknown.
I can't take Genestealer Cults seriously when I see they're heads. I'm like, "did that insane priest just glue a purple sea shell to his forehead? OH gak HE'S GOT AN AUTOGUN!". I am glad that Tyranids are getting a model update though, they needed it badly. Termagants actually look terrifying now.
I get the Star Trek foreheads not working for you. Personally, I have to dig up all the illustrations with bizarre-looking 40k humans to suspend my disbelief and accept that these guys were able to "blend in" with the larger populace. But you have to admit that all those elements you say you like are present:
Smarter than you = weird alien cunning/unnerving and genuinely alien intellect of the patriarch.
Fear of violation = the genestealer's kiss; reasonably comparable to face huggers.
The dark = ... the dark. I mean, genestealers are sneaky. They crawl around in air vents and pop out of shadows. This is absolutely as true for genestealers as it is for xenomorphs.
The unknown = see above about the patriarch. Like, in addition to (eventually) being linked to the hive mind's weirdness, this guy sits on a pile of organic... stuff that is essentially magical (see the GSC relics) and can straight up manifest psychic familiars into existence.
Plus, you have that whole... creepy small town cult that will sacrifice you to the corn god vibes mixed with some Innsmouth fish-man energy.
Oh, theres nothing wrong with the Cults per say. It's just there a bit less sexually disgusting than the xenomorphs are and also less animalistic in nature. Xenomorphs are also much smarter (Hudson is actually a pretty clever character in the series for coming up with how they exactly operate when he's theorizing what the hive is like. Also, his line about them cutting the power is pure nightmare fuel because it implies they know far more than they appear to about basically everything).
Also, they are literal soulless legions of children born from forced insemination that only have one goal: to spread as much of their ilk as possible. However, yeah they share a gak ton of similiarities, I wont lie. Cults are the psychic Innsmouth cult that usurp entire worlds for their "star gods" and the Xenomorphs are hyper-intelligent parasitic organisms that are born through rape. The whole concept of a xenomorph is just a little more revolting due to their negative sexual elements to me.
I'd argue genestealer cults are smarter considering that they form organised groups within human society from the very bottom all the way to the top. They basically infiltrate a world and keep expanding and taking over as much as they can with the intention that they will eventually rise up to control the whole world, system and as much as they can spread too before they are either destroyed or consumed. They can operate machines, build machines, hatch plots, rule vast swathes of territory. Genstealer Cults are very smart and would out-smart a Xenomorph force.
In general Xenos are pretty smart predators and do work things out; but they don't tend to be seen operating machinery outside of very basic concepts. They are also often seen as "OMG this thing is smart" more in the way raptors were in Jurassic Park. It's an "animal/beast" that humans greatly underestimate because its not human. So when it does basic predatory hunting or such they are shocked. It's part of the mythos that can lose some luster when you step back and realise that people really shouldn't be shocked that an alien from space that lived on a starship can avoid fire; hunt; predate on people and not just kill itself mindlessly (and yet that's just what they almost did against the auto-cannon in Alien 2).
I would still argue a hard wager for xenomorphs. The velociraptor is a clever girl for sure, but not on the level a xenomorph is. Also, there basic ability to adapt to various climates, they're scary ass intelligence even concerning technology, there natural ability to assimilate any species amongst its ranks through forced impregnation, an advanced understanding of basic guerilla warfare/horde tactics, bio-mechanical camouflage, acidic blood, and sheer tenacity is something that would give any Imperial Hive World a run for it's money.
However, I will admit with psykers being on the playing field and the ability for Cults to naturally assimilate into a society (whereas a xenomorph unnaturally assimilates one) makes them a far more potent threat. I'd be curious what would happen if an Abberant, Patriarch, or Magus got facehugged. Xenomorph Cults?
For me, the build your own lore aspect is critical. We tend to reference events when we build a campaign- at the very least, thinking about the where and the when and then thinking about how that may be referenced.
I think the Rift is interesting and has a lot of story potential; I liked the discovery of a new Blackstone Fortress.
I've found that playing through a Crusade Arc might give folks the "your dudes" feel. I wasn't sure how much I liked Primaris until I saw the Torchbearer rules. That's where raw Greyshield Primaris fight their way across the galaxy under the accompaniment of the mechanicus and custodes until they find the Chapter they were meant to reinforce, then bonding and imprinting with that chapter until finally becoming battle brothers.
Playing through that arc takes the story of Primaris out of the macro-scale and the big picture objections to Cawl and the 10,000 years of R&D or whatever, and refocuses things at a microscale, where the conflict between untested and unfamiliar reinforcements and grizzled veterans can be played out on the table.
The Ynarri plotline is similar- I think that playing several small Aeldari forces in a campaign is far more interesting than playing a fixed Eldar army, because the factions can have those interactions. A small band of Ynarri allying with other Aeldari armies, eventually recruiting units from those allies to their cause.
That makes a much more interesting story than "Resurrecting an Eldar Death God to take out Slaanesh", just as "Brothers, we have travelled the Galaxy to find you- test us to prove that we are worthy!" is a better story than some lonely Mechanicus outsider sitting in his mom's basement for 10,000 years to craft an army of Fratboys in Power Armour so the Sisters will finally think he's cool.
Abanshee wrote:
I would still argue a hard wager for xenomorphs. The velociraptor is a clever girl for sure, but not on the level a xenomorph is. Also, there basic ability to adapt to various climates, they're scary ass intelligence even concerning technology, there natural ability to assimilate any species amongst its ranks through forced impregnation, an advanced understanding of basic guerilla warfare/horde tactics, bio-mechanical camouflage, acidic blood, and sheer tenacity is something that would give any Imperial Hive World a run for it's money.
You're welcome to prefer xenomorphs, but for the record, I'm pretty sure that genestealers have access to most/all of those things at some point in the game's history. Or at least patriarchs do.
* Climate adaptation? 'Stealers are pretty heat/cold-resistant to begin with (as noted in some of the novels when it talks about them hiding in various parts of a minimal life support ship), but 'nids in general are also great at adapting to various types of environments.
* 'Stealers are probably a bit more selective in whom they can "assimilate," but the main deterrant we know of in 40k seems to be cultural. Ex: Orks being able to tell when someone is acting unorky, eldar having warp spiders, etc. Barring factors to specifically prevent 'stealer infestations from taking hold, it seems like they can kiss pretty much any species, and there's plenty of pregnancy-related body horror with the subsequent generations.
* Hard to pin down exactly how well a genestealer grasps tactics, but they're frequently called out for being more clever than various humanoid POV characters expected. Bare minimum, they're clever enough to hide in a wide variety of environments, keep their presence a secret as their cult grows, and generally understand on some level that growing a cult will allow them to disable defensive structures on the planet and that these efforts can be assisted by amassing purestrains and releasing them at key times. So I'd argue that they're at least in a similar ballpark. Plus, they seem to be able to "learn" by listening to pushback from their cultists.
* Camouflage is more of a lictor thing, but I'm fairly certain this has been an option at some point in the history of the game, if only for ymgarls or army-wide buffs or something. Actually, lictors probably cover some of the xenomorph ground that 'stealers don't.
* Acid blood was definitely an upgrade (and stratagem?) at various points in the game for patriarchs if not for normal stealers.
* Tenacity? I mean. The stealers' default strategy involves multiple human lifetimes of prep, and they can be compelled to throw themselves fearless into the fray if near synapse.
Again, xenomorphs are cool, and you're welcome to prefer them. Just be sure to give 'stealers their due!
However, I will admit with psykers being on the playing field and the ability for Cults to naturally assimilate into a society (whereas a xenomorph unnaturally assimilates one) makes them a far more potent threat. I'd be curious what would happen if an Abberant, Patriarch, or Magus got facehugged. Xenomorph Cults?
Well, if they're in the vicinity of any other 'stealers or 'stealer cultists, they'd probably sense that something was trying to infect their population and kill the hugged creature ASAP. Assuming that doesn't happen? Limited scenario: you basically just end up with a xenomorph with some tyranid brand biomorphs, and maybe the xenomorph ends up being responsive to synaptic control and gets absorbed by the hivemind. Extreme outcome: the xenomorph gains tryanid-brand potential for hive fleet creation, xenomorph-style hive fleet comes into existence, then probably either gets wiped out because it can't produce smaller, more specialized organisms to fill niches, or else they essentially just become normal 'nids because mass-producing 'gaunts is more efficient than spamming xenomorphs. (Otherwise, tyranids would basically spam xenomorphs themselves.)
stroller wrote:
Necrons? Please don't remind me of the worst faction/lore update in the game's history.
I didn't read the new lore. I understand from here that many people prefer it, but I don't.
I still play old school Necron style because that's what pleases me.
Wait. You're welcome to prefer the old lore, but... Are you saying that you hate the lore that you haven't read and that you also know you prefer to play in the old style/with old lore despite intentionally not knowing the new lore?
PenitentJake wrote:
I've found that playing through a Crusade Arc might give folks the "your dudes" feel. I wasn't sure how much I liked Primaris until I saw the Torchbearer rules. That's where raw Greyshield Primaris fight their way across the galaxy under the accompaniment of the mechanicus and custodes until they find the Chapter they were meant to reinforce, then bonding and imprinting with that chapter until finally becoming battle brothers.
Haven't looked at the 10th edition Crusade rules yet, but this was definitely true for me in 9th edition. Coming up with a story for your army and deciding what the outcome of games mean for that story makes the hobby way more fun for me. In fact, this actively helps combat the "drunken commander"/"why are we even here?" feeling that can come with the newer missions.
Of course, part of the fun of that in 9th was using things like wargear options and subfaction bonuses to help make the forces on your crusade roster feel unique. Something that 10th, so far, actively makes more difficult.
Abanshee wrote: Does the lore really even matter? With the recent dip in lore quality and the more recent lore additions, I'm honestly left asking what's the point anymore? It's like the deeper I dive into the novels, games, pre-history of 40k, and sourcebooks that my appreciation for the setting drops. I know that this is primarily a setting designed around selling miniatures and at the end of the day, that's GW's top priority. However, that just led me to question as to why so many people are even invested in such an expensive hobby or more so what's the point?
If not the lore, is it just pure aesthetics? Are the models really the only reason anyone is here? Buyer's stockholm syndrome, lol? The so called "wonderful community"? The awful rules? I was never here for any of that.
It's pretty simple: I'm a miniatures gamer. I love being able to play with toys (er, I meant to say models....) while claiming it's a hobby. And I like a lot of the minis GWs made for this game over the years. Especially tanks & giant robots (dreadnoughts, knights, titans....). And most of the rules editions have been adequate enough that I can enjoy playing with those tanks, giant robots, etc.
I also love the creativity that this hobby entails/allows. Sometimes running a stock mini straight out of the blister/sprue is fine. Other times you find yourself converting a 15mm infantryman.... And then there's the joy of creating terrain.
The "wonderful community" - that's the people I actually play miniatures games with in real life. Some play 40k, some WHFB, some Sigmar, some Bolt action, some various Historicals, spaceships, Battletech, superheroes, etc etc etc. Some (like me!) play multiple genres/scales/sytems/editions....
I can't imagine being in this hobby without the love of models & actually playing games.
Abanshee wrote: I dunno it's a mid-life wargaming crisis or what? It just sucks I can't enjoy the lore anymore the way I used to without finding something blatantly wrong about it and writing it off as gak. How did you stop hating the lore, if you ever have? Or is it time to look for greener pastures?
For games based on fiction? Generally all I need to know to enjoy the game is an overall idea of the lore. This is especially true for 40k. So all I do is read wichever Codex applies to the army I'm playing when I first build that army. After that I'll skim over new bits in later editions to keep that general idea (oh look, the Guard added a new leader dude on bionic horse - read his bit.. If an actual NEW force enters the game? For ex: Votaan? THAT I'll read cover to cover.
But other than that? I don't worry about it. What happened in the 37th book of the HH novel line etc is simply not important to me. And it doesn't change the fun I have come game time.
Gadzilla666 wrote: @OP: Regarding your problems with 8th Legion lore: Which books on the 8th Legion have you seen reading? And by which particular author?
I know this might piss you off and probably any other fellow brothers of the Legion around, but please don't flay me just yet. Hear me out. Aaron-Dembski Bowden. I think he's a great dude, but after reading some of his stuff in the Heresy era I have grown to dislike his writing. I've read all of the Night Lords Trilogy (ADB at his best), Savage Weapons (I hate this one for how pointless it is), Prince of Crows (I hate this one, it's pure edge), The Abyssal Edge (I liked it for background's sake), The Long Night (I AM JUDGEMENT! TIER). I also really, really dislike the Primarch Novel for one reason: Curze killing the suicidal girl. I'm extremely mentally ill myself and it kind of came off as the author trying to make Curze as evil as possible. I adore their Horus Heresy Black Book though.
No anger here. You're quite welcome to your opinions. I do, however, find it interesting that you enjoy ADB's 40k 8th Legion work, but dislike his 30k work. Is it possible that you just dislike the character of Sevatar, since he is central to all of those stories? I could definitely see how someone could see his "snarkiness" as "edgy for edgies sake" (though I can't think of anything "whiny" about him).
Fully agreed on the Curze novel, and everything else that Haley has done to the 8th whenever given the chance. It's obvious that he neither understands, nor likes, the Legion, and goes out of his way to make them look as bad as possible every chance that he gets. If you haven't read any of his other work regarding the 8th, I'd advise you to avoid it, as it just features more of the stuff that you profess to dislike.
For games based on fiction? Generally all I need to know to enjoy the game is an overall idea of the lore. This is especially true for 40k.
This is probably the key thing for me too. I think the lore has been getting steadily worse over the years and that's mainly because GW has delved too deeply into it and removed a lot of the mystery. The Horus Heresy is the prime example of this. Previously we knew very little. There was some info on the Primarchs and their homeworlds, a bit of info about their part in the Heresy in some cases and some broad strokes about a small number of key moments like the Istvaan massacre and that was it. Adding excruciating levels of detail to that over the course of what feels like 500 novels removes the mystery and a lot of the ability to imprint your own ideas and theories onto the lore.
So for the OP, I'd say you need to stop reading the lore. Read enough to get an overview of what each faction is like - how they operate, their culture, etc. Then use that as a jumping off point for your own ideas. That's especially the case if you genuinely "hate" the lore as this thread says. If you do, why keep reading it?
Slipspace wrote: Adding excruciating levels of detail to that over the course of what feels like 500 novels removes the mystery and a lot of the ability to imprint your own ideas and theories onto the lore.
They don't if you just completely ignore them and don't count them as canon!
"Wait. You're welcome to prefer the old lore, but... Are you saying that you hate the lore that you haven't read and that you also know you prefer to play in the old style/with old lore despite intentionally not knowing the new lore?"
Perhaps I need to try to be more precise. I like the idea of the faceless uncaring mechanical horde. The early rules and lore reflected this (in my opinion).
Necrons got updated (in principle not a bad thing) and I started reading the new lore. I didn't like the story (particularly Necrons having character) so I stopped reading the necron lore. *MY* Necron army doesn't have those characters, and I enjoy playing them. So far, noone has said they're boring to play against (someone will, one day) but most people so far have enjoyed playing against a ton (weight) of classic necron metal figures (rule of cool). Hope that makes more sense.
stroller wrote:
Necrons? Please don't remind me of the worst faction/lore update in the game's history.
I didn't read the new lore. I understand from here that many people prefer it, but I don't.
I still play old school Necron style because that's what pleases me.
Wait. You're welcome to prefer the old lore, but... Are you saying that you hate the lore that you haven't read and that you also know you prefer to play in the old style/with old lore despite intentionally not knowing the new lore?
In fairness, it is possible to get a reasonable grasp to background without having to read/consume it directly. (And he's not wrong for the most part!)
I haven't read the book where it turns out that Calgar actually stole some other dude's identity, and that the Ultramarines left a crashed chaos ship on one of their worlds for decades because reasons, but I still know that it's stupid and I hate it...
I haven't read the book where it turns out that Calgar actually stole some other dude's identity, and that the Ultramarines left a crashed chaos ship on one of their worlds for decades because reasons, but I still know that it's stupid and I hate it...
I haven't read the book where it turns out that Calgar actually stole some other dude's identity, and that the Ultramarines left a crashed chaos ship on one of their worlds for decades because reasons, but I still know that it's stupid and I hate it...
Wtf is that a thing? Maybe I don't want to know.
It's Marvel's Marneus Calgar comic. (Yes, Marneus Calgar is not actually Marnus Calgar, he's Tacitan, a serf of house Calgar.)
I find a good way to avoid being agitated by something is to avoid it. If modern w40k lore makes you activly hate it, then just don't read modern lore from GW. A simple solution to uch problems, that works very well for me.
You know I tend to avoid reading the blurb on the back of most books because I find that when you take most fantasy or sci-fi stories and boil them down to a few lines or one line they all sound utterly daft. Heck even real world stories can sound daft/impossible/stupid when you do the same thing.
Many times a snippet of info isn't enough, you have to dive into the whole story to appreciate what is going on around the moment. To see if it really is a huge moment people are talking about; or if its very situational. Heck many times there are unique things in books that aren't "general" lore for a faction; they are just thinks that happen outside of the very generalist concept of lore each faction is built upon.
I haven't read the book where it turns out that Calgar actually stole some other dude's identity, and that the Ultramarines left a crashed chaos ship on one of their worlds for decades because reasons, but I still know that it's stupid and I hate it...
Wtf is that a thing? Maybe I don't want to know.
It's Marvel's Marneus Calgar comic. (Yes, Marneus Calgar is not actually Marnus Calgar, he's Tacitan, a serf of house Calgar.)
Did they give necrons their ftl back after the whole dolmen gate nonsense? How about tau? Them losing ftl was one of the most nonsense changes I ever read.
Sometimes I feel like a heretic for enjoying every Tau novel Phil Kelly has written. I think I own them all. Am I trash? Is it because I also love anime and GW weebafied the Tau to lure me in?
I do agree that the ethereals are all extremely poorly written characters, very one-sided with no relatable motives, and complex villains is what makes good fiction.
The oldest Tau codex I have is 7th, I think, since it has the stormsurge. Can someone recommend me an older codex (or novel, if one exists) so that I can gain a more cultured understanding of Tau lore? Or should I make it my goal to collect every Tau codex since 3rd...
Mr. OP, I can hardly relate to your predicament since I am no more mentally ill than the average human and generally have more positive than negative feelings on hobbies. This is art, playcraft, hobby, etc. It is not so important in the grand scheme of things to dwell on and make yourself miserable over.
I do have strong negative feelings about the culture war and divide in America, and seeing the ground level state of it in the news and especially on Twitter or YouTube can really make me mad or upset, so I recognize that and avoid it.
I would understand being upset or hateful if the history of 40k was being physically purged, like a campaign to burn every last book from the planet, but that is not happening. They are only adding to the lore, not replacing or removing it. We collectors are archivers of the sacred texts and they live on through us.
The Star Wars trilogies are similar, each one being worse in most ways than the previous. I lament that the potential of the fiction was squandered but I do not agonize. I idolize the ancient and admonish the new. Same with The Matrix actually.
The point is this is a fiction crafted for a game. Please play the game with your friends in a way you all enjoy, or write your own fanfiction to rival the heresy that is "nuGW."
kingpbjames wrote: Sometimes I feel like a heretic for enjoying every Tau novel Phil Kelly has written. I think I own them all. Am I trash? Is it because I also love anime and GW weebafied the Tau to lure me in?
I do agree that the ethereals are all extremely poorly written characters, very one-sided with no relatable motives, and complex villains is what makes good fiction.
The oldest Tau codex I have is 7th, I think, since it has the stormsurge. Can someone recommend me an older codex (or novel, if one exists) so that I can gain a more cultured understanding of Tau lore? Or should I make it my goal to collect every Tau codex since 3rd...
Mr. OP, I can hardly relate to your predicament since I am no more mentally ill than the average human and generally have more positive than negative feelings on hobbies. This is art, playcraft, hobby, etc. It is not so important in the grand scheme of things to dwell on and make yourself miserable over.
I do have strong negative feelings about the culture war and divide in America, and seeing the ground level state of it in the news and especially on Twitter or YouTube can really make me mad or upset, so I recognize that and avoid it.
I would understand being upset or hateful if the history of 40k was being physically purged, like a campaign to burn every last book from the planet, but that is not happening. They are only adding to the lore, not replacing or removing it. We collectors are archivers of the sacred texts and they live on through us.
The Star Wars trilogies are similar, each one being worse in most ways than the previous. I lament that the potential of the fiction was squandered but I do not agonize. I idolize the ancient and admonish the new. Same with The Matrix actually.
The point is this is a fiction crafted for a game. Please play the game with your friends in a way you all enjoy, or write your own fanfiction to rival the heresy that is "nuGW."
Yes sir, you are of course an horrid heretic and I'm reporting you to my local inquisitor!
Otherwise you've nailed it! We must know split what is important and what is not, what is fun and what is serious matter, what needs dedication and involvement come hell and high water and what doesn't.
OP, a hobby, whatever it is, is not worthy of such pain and disappointment.
Move on. Broaden you wargaming experiences. You'll see wargaming is so much more than just GW after all!
Do not fall afoul of the vicious circle of ranting, until it ends up being rant for the sake of rant!
Tomb-blades as top-of-the-line aero-space fighters bugs me more.
(also, puzzled by the SW reference, since we're introduced to x-wing fighters as FTL capable in the OT)
The Last Jedi shows us that ramming into enemy ships at hyperspeed is a viable (and highly effective) tactic - which absolutely destroys every prior space battle in the franchise where it isn't used - the battle of Yavin could have been over in seconds! Rise of Skywalker tries to handwave it away as only being a one in a million occurrence, but that creates huge narrative problems for Last Jedi (lol Holdo's plan was a one in a million shot at suicide), and we see it happen again in Rise of Skywalker anyway!
Why aren't the Necrons trivialising every naval engagement by ramming their enemies with expendable fighters? Or using them as planetary bombardment?
Tomb-blades as top-of-the-line aero-space fighters bugs me more.
(also, puzzled by the SW reference, since we're introduced to x-wing fighters as FTL capable in the OT)
The Last Jedi shows us that ramming into enemy ships at hyperspeed is a viable (and highly effective) tactic - which absolutely destroys every prior space battle in the franchise where it isn't used - the battle of Yavin could have been over in seconds! Rise of Skywalker tries to handwave it away as only being a one in a million occurrence, but that creates huge narrative problems for Last Jedi (lol Holdo's plan was a one in a million shot at suicide), and we see it happen again in Rise of Skywalker anyway!
Why aren't the Necrons trivialising every naval engagement by ramming their enemies with expendable fighters? Or using them as planetary bombardment?
From a 40k stance, who cares what SW does?
And why would you want one franchises bad writing to apply to another (wich often has its own bad writing)?
Tomb-blades as top-of-the-line aero-space fighters bugs me more.
(also, puzzled by the SW reference, since we're introduced to x-wing fighters as FTL capable in the OT)
The Last Jedi shows us that ramming into enemy ships at hyperspeed is a viable (and highly effective) tactic - which absolutely destroys every prior space battle in the franchise where it isn't used - the battle of Yavin could have been over in seconds! Rise of Skywalker tries to handwave it away as only being a one in a million occurrence, but that creates huge narrative problems for Last Jedi (lol Holdo's plan was a one in a million shot at suicide), and we see it happen again in Rise of Skywalker anyway!
Why aren't the Necrons trivialising every naval engagement by ramming their enemies with expendable fighters? Or using them as planetary bombardment?
From a 40k stance, who cares what SW does?
And why would you want one franchises bad writing to apply to another (wich often has its own bad writing)?
Because Rian Johnson made a middling-at-best, terrible-at-worst movie. Since that is attached to one of the biggest names in Hollywood IP, we have to hear about it from now 'til the end of time from aggrieved nerds. Even in a context where it doesn't matter at all, they will bring it up.
Tomb-blades as top-of-the-line aero-space fighters bugs me more.
(also, puzzled by the SW reference, since we're introduced to x-wing fighters as FTL capable in the OT)
The Last Jedi shows us that ramming into enemy ships at hyperspeed is a viable (and highly effective) tactic - which absolutely destroys every prior space battle in the franchise where it isn't used - the battle of Yavin could have been over in seconds! Rise of Skywalker tries to handwave it away as only being a one in a million occurrence, but that creates huge narrative problems for Last Jedi (lol Holdo's plan was a one in a million shot at suicide), and we see it happen again in Rise of Skywalker anyway!
Why aren't the Necrons trivialising every naval engagement by ramming their enemies with expendable fighters? Or using them as planetary bombardment?
From a 40k stance, who cares what SW does?
And why would you want one franchises bad writing to apply to another (wich often has its own bad writing)?
Because Rian Johnson made a middling-at-best, terrible-at-worst movie. Since that is attached to one of the biggest names in Hollywood IP, we have to hear about it from now 'til the end of time from aggrieved nerds. Even in a context where it doesn't matter at all, they will bring it up.
Thread title is about lore. Post is about poor handling of in-lore FTL capability, and compares it to another example of poor handling of in-lore FTL capability. Is asked to explain. Explains.
Seems pretty straight forward. If "aggrieved nerds" bother you maybe don't hang out in a thread about "hating the lore"? Lol, just sayin.
Sorry, but I adore this piece of lore. I want to imagine SMs wandering around with empty Grav Guns tied to strings like they're balloons. Or, better still, a SM running out of ammo and being carried up into the stratosphere because he refuses to let go.
'Brother, no! It's a lost cause!'
'The Grav-Gun is my sacred responsibility, brother. Carry on the fight without meeeeeeeeeeee.'
Sorry, but I adore this piece of lore. I want to imagine SMs wandering around with empty Grav Guns tied to strings like they're balloons. Or, better still, a SM running out of ammo and being carried up into the stratosphere because he refuses to let go.
'Brother, no! It's a lost cause!'
'The Grav-Gun is my sacred responsibility, brother. Carry on the fight without meeeeeeeeeeee.'
Gadzilla666 wrote: @OP: Regarding your problems with 8th Legion lore: Which books on the 8th Legion have you seen reading? And by which particular author?
I know this might piss you off and probably any other fellow brothers of the Legion around, but please don't flay me just yet. Hear me out. Aaron-Dembski Bowden. I think he's a great dude, but after reading some of his stuff in the Heresy era I have grown to dislike his writing. I've read all of the Night Lords Trilogy (ADB at his best), Savage Weapons (I hate this one for how pointless it is), Prince of Crows (I hate this one, it's pure edge), The Abyssal Edge (I liked it for background's sake), The Long Night (I AM JUDGEMENT! TIER). I also really, really dislike the Primarch Novel for one reason: Curze killing the suicidal girl. I'm extremely mentally ill myself and it kind of came off as the author trying to make Curze as evil as possible. I adore their Horus Heresy Black Book though.
No anger here. You're quite welcome to your opinions. I do, however, find it interesting that you enjoy ADB's 40k 8th Legion work, but dislike his 30k work. Is it possible that you just dislike the character of Sevatar, since he is central to all of those stories? I could definitely see how someone could see his "snarkiness" as "edgy for edgies sake" (though I can't think of anything "whiny" about him).
Fully agreed on the Curze novel, and everything else that Haley has done to the 8th whenever given the chance. It's obvious that he neither understands, nor likes, the Legion, and goes out of his way to make them look as bad as possible every chance that he gets. If you haven't read any of his other work regarding the 8th, I'd advise you to avoid it, as it just features more of the stuff that you profess to dislike.
Sevatar is extremely charming and genuinely tragic (you see many instances where he doesn't fit in among his own legion or any group really, it's why I loved The Long Night). He can get a little too "theatrical" for my tastes at times. I still think ADB is probably the only man next to Chris Wraight who can properly write a space marine. He still makes them feel inhuman even his really whiny guys like, Iskander, has loads of inhumanity to his character (the fact his shuttle is literally his sister and his two Rubricae are like the only remaining part of his past life).
Maybe, I'm just being a little to hard on Aaron? He's genuinely the only guy who even slightly interested me with Primaris Marines (Emperor's Spears is a novel I really need to get around to reading, lol), so that's gotta count for something.
Anywho, after reading a lot of the posts about how they handle the lore problems. Yeah I think I need to take a step back, figure out what I actually enjoy now, and just stick to it. If that means experimenting with the nu-gak, so be it. I've got a few hours worth of videos on the new lore like Leutin's series on the Octarius War, a basic primer on the Adeptus Mechanicus (I'm familiar with them from 30k, but not really 40k cuz aesthetic), the Lion's Return, Vashtorr, and some Ynnari/Ynnead stuff. I'll see where this takes me. Maybe start writing my own lore, while staying true to the general canon.
I think it just hurts seeing something you love change so drastically and with a genuine lack of care.
I advise a more general approach to lore. Enjoy the theme of the army not specifics and minutiae.
For example I like how orks are madmaxian brutal fungi that thrive on constant fighting. I don't care which specific warboss fought which specific IG general on which world in which year and what they exactly did then - such details are bound to become inconsistent over the scope of how huge the lore has become.
Specific, personalised stories and minutiae of the faction's operations will emerge from your games.
Cyel wrote: I advise a more general approach to lore. Enjoy the theme of the army not specifics and minutiae.
For example I like how orks are madmaxian brutal fungi that strive on constant fighting. I don't care which specific warboss fought which specific IG general on which world in which year and what they exactly did then - such details are bound to become inconsistent over the scope of how huge the lore has become.
Specific, personalised stories and minutiae of the faction's operations will emerge from your games.
This. I'm only reading bits and pieces here and there - when I want to know more about a character, or a subject. I don't dive deep. For me, the lore is very important, but only as a setting, a background where I paint and play with my minis.
solution: take the bits of the Lore you like, ignore the rest and make up stuff to fill in the gaps
e.g. my Marines, the 37th Tiosen Rifles, are simply the 37th regiment of a much larger military (a Primaries regiment was raised as the 38th as required)
they follow much of the earlier fluff that they are basically better trained, much better equipped and cybernetic/bionetic enhancements applied over the basic humans who make up the 221st Infanty and 158th Infantry they fight alongside as required
not that they can fight alongside so easily these days, but then they couldn't in 5th when the regiment started either
Did they give necrons their ftl back after the whole dolmen gate nonsense? How about tau? Them losing ftl was one of the most nonsense changes I ever read.
Yeah Forge World gave Necrons their FTL back a bit after GW took it away From what I gather, that's carried across into other things too because GW realised it was a dumb descision.
Tau never lost their FTL, it's just that it was always worse than the other races (since it didn't peirce the warp, just skim the edge of it and realsapce). Part of the lore of the 4th Sphere was that Tau started using experimental warp-peircing FTL reverse engineered from Imperial Warp Drives... but it all went wrong when the Ethereals ignored the advice of the Earth Caste and activated them en-mase all at once in the same system, tearing reality asunder and resulting in the program getting scrapped
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Tau never lost their FTL, it's just that it was always worse than the other races (since it didn't peirce the warp, just skim the edge of it and realsapce). Part of the lore of the 4th Sphere was that Tau started using experimental warp-peircing FTL reverse engineered from Imperial Warp Drives... but it all went wrong when the Ethereals ignored the advice of the Earth Caste and activated them en-mase all at once in the same system, tearing reality asunder and resulting in the program getting scrapped
There was definitely a period where GW wrote out FTL for Tau, and made them a sublight race. It caused a lot of calling GW idiots at the time.
Why are you reading 40k novels explicitly aimed at children?
Why shouldn't I?
Why don't you think that children deserve good writing?
'There is nothing worth reading at 5 that isn't equally worth reading at 55.'
I might have that quotation slightly wrong, but Roald Dahl knew what he was talking about.
My opinion is that the good writers have mostly gone now, or were loaded with SoT content. Average writers have filled the void. The quality of fiction has always been inconsistent (going all the way back to the old Boxtree days) but the overall quality has definitely dropped.After the final SoT book, I doubt I'll read any new publications. I hope that I am proved wrong (Black Legion 3...).
Like how would a faction without FTL even work in 40K? They would be completely irrelevant as it would take them centuries or even millennia to get anywhere.
Crimson wrote: Like how would a faction without FTL even work in 40K? They would be completely irrelevant as it would take them centuries or even millennia to get anywhere.
They used stasis chambers, because that helps the nonsense apparenlty. T'au codex 8th edition:
In order to reach those more distant systems earmarked as desirable by advanced scouts, the vast armadas of T'au spacecraft had been outfitted with the latest Earth caste modifications. The ships' propulsion systems were upgraded so that when magnified by impulse reactors, the engines could obtain faster speeds, propelling ships forwards at hitherto unthinkable velocities. To further lessen the burden on those space-faring craft with the longest journeys, the Earth caste had outfitted transport vessels with large stasis chambers, allowing Hunter Cadres or whole commands to shift to far distant battle zones months or years away without actually aging a day in the process.
Well that really is pants-on-head stupid
Seems like they removed the Tau's old FTL just to immediately give it back to them... then give a lore reason to immediately take it away again.
Crimson wrote: Like how would a faction without FTL even work in 40K? They would be completely irrelevant as it would take them centuries or even millennia to get anywhere.
They used stasis chambers, because that helps the nonsense apparenlty. T'au codex 8th edition:
In order to reach those more distant systems earmarked as desirable by advanced scouts, the vast armadas of T'au spacecraft had been outfitted with the latest Earth caste modifications. The ships' propulsion systems were upgraded so that when magnified by impulse reactors, the engines could obtain faster speeds, propelling ships forwards at hitherto unthinkable velocities. To further lessen the burden on those space-faring craft with the longest journeys, the Earth caste had outfitted transport vessels with large stasis chambers, allowing Hunter Cadres or whole commands to shift to far distant battle zones months or years away without actually aging a day in the process.
Well, they haven't aged a day? It's like time stopped entirely!.... right?!
Did they give necrons their ftl back after the whole dolmen gate nonsense? How about tau? Them losing ftl was one of the most nonsense changes I ever read.
Yeah Forge World gave Necrons their FTL back a bit after GW took it away From what I gather, that's carried across into other things too because GW realised it was a dumb descision.
The 5th edition codex never actually removed Necron realspace FTL - it just didn't mention it, while adding dolmen gates as a 'fast' travel option.
The Word Bearers omnibus was re-published shortly after the 5th edition codex, and that contained explicit realspace FTL travel.
Even with realspace FTL though, deployment of fleets can still be slow (the ship in Dark Creed takes several months to arrive at it's destination, for example) relative to teleportation or webway travel.
Lord Damocles wrote: The 5th edition codex never actually removed Necron realspace FTL - it just didn't mention it, while adding dolmen gates as a 'fast' travel option.
Necron 5th edition codex:
As a race bereft of psykers, the Necrons are incapable of warp travel, and without access to the webway, they would be forced to rely once more on slow-voyaging stasis-ships, all but ending their ambition to re-establish their empire of old.
Lord Damocles wrote: The 5th edition codex never actually removed Necron realspace FTL - it just didn't mention it, while adding dolmen gates as a 'fast' travel option.
Necron 5th edition codex:
As a race bereft of psykers, the Necrons are incapable of warp travel, and without access to the webway, they would be forced to rely once more on slow-voyaging stasis-ships, all but ending their ambition to re-establish their empire of old.
Lord Damocles wrote: Even with realspace FTL though, deployment of fleets can still be slow (the ship in Dark Creed takes several months to arrive at it's destination, for example) relative to teleportation or webway travel.
Space big. Big distance still take big time realspace FTL. Realspace FTL slow compared to webway, teleportation (which only works if you already have something at the destination anyway).
Even warp travel takes long spans of time. Months in space is not uncommon. It also comes with the potential risk that you can get messed around and arrive before you left or appear generations later or just get lost entirely.
One reason we don't perhaps see it as often is because the months/years spent travelling are still short spans of time in a setting where most major heroes have extended lifespans.
Crimson wrote: Like how would a faction without FTL even work in 40K? They would be completely irrelevant as it would take them centuries or even millennia to get anywhere.
They used stasis chambers, because that helps the nonsense apparenlty. T'au codex 8th edition:
In order to reach those more distant systems earmarked as desirable by advanced scouts, the vast armadas of T'au spacecraft had been outfitted with the latest Earth caste modifications. The ships' propulsion systems were upgraded so that when magnified by impulse reactors, the engines could obtain faster speeds, propelling ships forwards at hitherto unthinkable velocities. To further lessen the burden on those space-faring craft with the longest journeys, the Earth caste had outfitted transport vessels with large stasis chambers, allowing Hunter Cadres or whole commands to shift to far distant battle zones months or years away without actually aging a day in the process.
Well, they haven't aged a day? It's like time stopped entirely!.... right?!
Sorta!
Old tau lore had them using not-quite-warp travel to get around slower than imperial ships but fast enough to eventually expand a bit. This is why a big chunk of their lore involves the Damocles Gulf; a stretch of space that wouldn't be a big deal for imperials but is a significant voyage for the tau. Basically, warp travel in 40k is literally magic. Tau travel using a combination of slower magic and basically magic wormhole portal gates. So it's kind of hard to say tau are "too slow to be relevant" or what have you because you have to make assertions about how fast their magic travel is.
And yeah, tau stasis seems to either completely or nearly completely arrest aging. Plus you've got farsight's magic sword that apparently de-ages him when he stabs people?
Overread wrote: Even warp travel takes long spans of time. Months in space is not uncommon. It also comes with the potential risk that you can get messed around and arrive before you left or appear generations later or just get lost entirely.
One reason we don't perhaps see it as often is because the months/years spent travelling are still short spans of time in a setting where most major heroes have extended lifespans.
The creation of iconic heroes that do not has always been one of the tricky issues with moving the timeline forward.
Overread wrote: Even warp travel takes long spans of time. Months in space is not uncommon. It also comes with the potential risk that you can get messed around and arrive before you left or appear generations later or just get lost entirely.
One reason we don't perhaps see it as often is because the months/years spent travelling are still short spans of time in a setting where most major heroes have extended lifespans.
The Milky Way Galaxy is approximately 80,000 light years across. FTL travel at 1000 times the speed of light (not quite Warp 8 in Star Trek) would take 80 years to cross the Galaxy.
This is why the Imperium put up with the risks of Warp Travel. It is the only way to maintain a Galaxy-spanning empire. It is also why the Tau are regulated to a corner of the Galaxy where there FTL travel makes an empire possible.
Lord Damocles wrote: The 5th edition codex never actually removed Necron realspace FTL - it just didn't mention it, while adding dolmen gates as a 'fast' travel option.
Necron 5th edition codex:
As a race bereft of psykers, the Necrons are incapable of warp travel, and without access to the webway, they would be forced to rely once more on slow-voyaging stasis-ships, all but ending their ambition to re-establish their empire of old.
Lord Damocles wrote: Even with realspace FTL though, deployment of fleets can still be slow (the ship in Dark Creed takes several months to arrive at it's destination, for example) relative to teleportation or webway travel.
Space big. Big distance still take big time realspace FTL. Realspace FTL slow compared to webway, teleportation (which only works if you already have something at the destination anyway).
However there's a vague bit in the 3rd ed book about Necron ships that could "cross the galaxy in the galaxy in the blink of an eye" . . . (Probably not exact quote, no codex atm). I seem to recall some other tidbits in the BFG Necron lore, but it's been a while since I looked.
The impression I always had was not just FTL, but fast.
The caveat for the 3rd ed quote being that was at the height of their power, and it's possible that capability has degraded. But whatever the BFG stuff is, it was "current". I'd dig for it, but am away from my resources.
Abanshee wrote: Does the lore really even matter? With the recent dip in lore quality and the more recent lore additions, I'm honestly left asking what's the point anymore? It's like the deeper I dive into the novels, games, pre-history of 40k, and sourcebooks that my appreciation for the setting drops. I know that this is primarily a setting designed around selling miniatures and at the end of the day, that's GW's top priority. However, that just led me to question as to why so many people are even invested in such an expensive hobby or more so what's the point?
Same as with every other fictional setting: headcanon. Ignore the stuff you dislike, you will not receive a badge for staying trve to canon. I mostly ignore NuCrons, but I really liked that new Szeras sculpt so I just bought it as a modelling project and future display piece. I tried to get into The Infinite and the Divine, but I just couldn't make it work in my slice of 40k, so I refunded the audiobook.
Earlier this year, my old Death Guard bug bit me and I bought a box of plague marines to salvage convert them into properly scaled and less mutated versions. I also got around to listening to a couple of novels from the past Indomitus era because of the DG's involvement, and they were fine. Not amazing, but fine to catch up on some of the more recent developments. Mortarion I just cannot stand as he is portrayed in the novels, but the miniature is one of the best GW ever produced, so I'll likely get it at some point.
Lastly, I was very hesitant on the new Leviathan stuff, so I got the novel on Audible and some choice miniatures from the big set off eBay. The best way to avoid bad feelings about 40k is to not overcommit. Pace yourself and your purchases, engage only with whatever makes you happy and ignore the rest. Cur your losses, both in terms of time and money. Don't like a novel? Refund/resell it. A kit hasn't turned out to be as fun to build as you had imagined? Sell it online at a decent discount. I've had this approach for several years now and I've never been happier about my hobby.
Lord Damocles wrote: The 5th edition codex never actually removed Necron realspace FTL - it just didn't mention it, while adding dolmen gates as a 'fast' travel option.
Necron 5th edition codex:
As a race bereft of psykers, the Necrons are incapable of warp travel, and without access to the webway, they would be forced to rely once more on slow-voyaging stasis-ships, all but ending their ambition to re-establish their empire of old.
Lord Damocles wrote: Even with realspace FTL though, deployment of fleets can still be slow (the ship in Dark Creed takes several months to arrive at it's destination, for example) relative to teleportation or webway travel.
Space big. Big distance still take big time realspace FTL. Realspace FTL slow compared to webway, teleportation (which only works if you already have something at the destination anyway).
However there's a vague bit in the 3rd ed book about Necron ships that could "cross the galaxy in the galaxy in the blink of an eye" . . . (Probably not exact quote, no codex atm). I seem to recall some other tidbits in the BFG Necron lore, but it's been a while since I looked.
The impression I always had was not just FTL, but fast.
The caveat for the 3rd ed quote being that was at the height of their power, and it's possible that capability has degraded. But whatever the BFG stuff is, it was "current". I'd dig for it, but am away from my resources.
Sidenote: You remembered right, that's the exact quote. There's another bit later that mentions Necron ships have never been seen translating to or from the Warp, but also appearing well inside max sensor range without warning (though they have been seen to decelerate upon arrival). I'd assume BFG would have more, but I don't have those rulebooks to hand so I couldn't say.
We never knew exactly what the 3rd edition codex was referring to - phase teleportation? That's near instantaneous, but requires infrastructure at the destination, so can't be used to go somewhere new.
Direct C'tan intervention?
Simple hyperbole? If Necrons could actually relocate across the galaxy almost instantly, their naval engagements should always involve loads of ships appearing to help out, yet we never saw that happen.
Even in the 5th edition book, Necrons (and by extension their ships) retained the ability to phase out and teleport, so they still could cross huge distances almost instantly - it's just not a particularly useful method of travel unless you're going 'home'.
The Battlefleet Gothic Magazine battle report 'The Orphan World' described a Necron fleet 'decelerating from hyperspeed' periodically in order to use their scanners. If their realspace FTL was just them blinking from point to point, they wouldn't really be decelerating in any meaningful way.
The various times that their hyperspeed' has been described, we also don't see them just instantly appearing at their destination, further suggesting that the 'blink of an eye' quote is either hyperbolic or referring to some other method of travel.
Abanshee wrote: Does the lore really even matter? With the recent dip in lore quality and the more recent lore additions, I'm honestly left asking what's the point anymore? It's like the deeper I dive into the novels, games, pre-history of 40k, and sourcebooks that my appreciation for the setting drops. I know that this is primarily a setting designed around selling miniatures and at the end of the day, that's GW's top priority. However, that just led me to question as to why so many people are even invested in such an expensive hobby or more so what's the point?
Same as with every other fictional setting: headcanon. Ignore the stuff you dislike, you will not receive a badge for staying trve to canon. I mostly ignore NuCrons, but I really liked that new Szeras sculpt so I just bought it as a modelling project and future display piece. I tried to get into The Infinite and the Divine, but I just couldn't make it work in my slice of 40k, so I refunded the audiobook.
Earlier this year, my old Death Guard bug bit me and I bought a box of plague marines to salvage convert them into properly scaled and less mutated versions. I also got around to listening to a couple of novels from the past Indomitus era because of the DG's involvement, and they were fine. Not amazing, but fine to catch up on some of the more recent developments. Mortarion I just cannot stand as he is portrayed in the novels, but the miniature is one of the best GW ever produced, so I'll likely get it at some point.
Lastly, I was very hesitant on the new Leviathan stuff, so I got the novel on Audible and some choice miniatures from the big set off eBay. The best way to avoid bad feelings about 40k is to not overcommit. Pace yourself and your purchases, engage only with whatever makes you happy and ignore the rest. Cur your losses, both in terms of time and money. Don't like a novel? Refund/resell it. A kit hasn't turned out to be as fun to build as you had imagined? Sell it online at a decent discount. I've had this approach for several years now and I've never been happier about my hobby.
The Infinite and the Divine was garbage. I read like half of it before I went into a longer sleep than the Necrons themselves did. I really don't know why people say its up there with books like Scars, Eisenhorn, or Gaunt's Ghosts. Same goes for any
books by Mike Brooks. I love how his attempt at making the Alpha Legion interesting/understandable was too make them even more confusing. Easily the new Matt Ward of GW, but at least Ward could write cool things from time to time.
Also, nobody knows how to portray a major depressive with a penchant towards fatalism. Mentally ill characters are some of the hardest characters to depict in fiction and Mortarion was most certainly that. Even Konrad suffers from just being seen
as "another crazy man killing people". It's a gross over-simplification of actual problems that people deal with on the daily. Unremembered Empire and his Primarch novel are great examples of a gakky depiction of Konrad. Unfortunately, in the DG's
case they've just been as badly neglected as the Iron Hands in lore, so they don't have a lot of great depictions to choose from.
Judging by recent responses, this seems to have evolved into a thread of general complaints now. Adding my due, I must admit I've always hated Necrons, found their inclusion into the setting to be badly written, found their rework ca. 2012 even more baffling and in general I've come to conclusion they are by far the worst race in the setting from my perspective.
There is not enough hate for the Necrons in this fandom.
I've had The Infinite and the Divine on my shelf for ages, but I haven't got round to reading it yet.
People say that it's the best 40k book in years, but having read a LOT of Necron material, and all of Trazyn's previous appearances, I'm expecting to be disappointed by Necrons who are essentially wacky tomb kings in spaaace, basically indistinguishable from human characters, and Trazyn being an idiot who gets his museum trashed for the umpteenth time...
Abanshee wrote: Does the lore really even matter? With the recent dip in lore quality and the more recent lore additions, I'm honestly left asking what's the point anymore? It's like the deeper I dive into the novels, games, pre-history of 40k, and sourcebooks that my appreciation for the setting drops.
I dunno it's a mid-life wargaming crisis or what? It just sucks I can't enjoy the lore anymore the way I used to without finding something blatantly wrong about it and writing it off as gak. How did you stop hating the lore, if you ever have? Or is it time to look for greener pastures?
One of my favourite writers - Matthew reilly (and others, probably...) -once said it's not the lore that changes, it's you. You get older. I went through the same thing 10 years ago when I felt 'the old lore is better, nu-lore is rubbish' and re-read some of the 'better' old 2nd Ed stuff I loved as a teenager. I was quickly disabused. Older lore was just as cheesy. :p whst changed was I was no longer the target demographic.
The lore has always been this cheesy/dreadful/weirdly engaging since day 1. And its always been targeted at younger folk. Its just you were also younger then too and had a completely different perspective on what you liked and what was 'cool'. If young-you could jump forward in timeto now and read the things old-you is all miserable about now, young-you would probably disagree and think its all pretty cool. Old-you going back would realise pretty quick what you're remembering as awesome and better is just rose-tinted nostalgia.
As to how to deal with it - I first took a step back (being too close for too long isn't healthy) and took a break and did different things (gym, running etc). In the meantime i realised i was too invested in this 'fishbowl' and just kind of changed perspective, stopped scrutinising the lore so hard and being determined to be miserable/find fault about it, and just embraced the light-hearted over-the-top cheese and utter silliness of it. It saved my hobby.
Abanshee wrote: . Also, I'm immensely depressed right now, so it ain't helping my writing or self-esteem.
I have a tendency to let things get to me and bad lore is one of them.
I think this is a much bigger issue and a bigger impediment to your mental well being/enjoying life than the lore being awful. I hope you're speaking to someone.
Necrons are a good example for what I said about not digging too much into the lore. Early they were just this menacing outline of an incomprehensible lovecraftian cosmic horror (just with living metal instead of tentacles) and they were cool.
Then someone decided to explain as much as possible about them, their chatacter and motivations and all the mystery went POOF! and it turned out Necrons are just dudes like you and me, but robots. Arrrgh!
Just stay with the outlines and you'll be ok. No need to delve into what writers have to produce out of their asses to get their monthly paychecks.
I've had The Infinite and the Divine on my shelf for ages, but I haven't got round to reading it yet.
People say that it's the best 40k book in years, but having read a LOT of Necron material, and all of Trazyn's previous appearances, I'm expecting to be disappointed by Necrons who are essentially wacky tomb kings in spaaace, basically indistinguishable from human characters, and Trazyn being an idiot who gets his museum trashed for the umpteenth time...
You're...not wrong, sadly. Complaining that something is "Marvel-ified" is overdone to the point of meaninglessness (and far too often comes with a healthy side helping of "ulterior motive"), but in this case it feels somewhat justified - it really felt like Doctor Reverso and Klepto-Man having their yearly "team up to fight The Biggester Evil" episode.
(Also, and this is probably a me thing, I really liked the title up until I realized that it's literally just the names of the main characters.)
Lord Damocles wrote: We never knew exactly what the 3rd edition codex was referring to - phase teleportation? That's near instantaneous, but requires infrastructure at the destination, so can't be used to go somewhere new.
Direct C'tan intervention?
Simple hyperbole? If Necrons could actually relocate across the galaxy almost instantly, their naval engagements should always involve loads of ships appearing to help out, yet we never saw that happen.
Even in the 5th edition book, Necrons (and by extension their ships) retained the ability to phase out and teleport, so they still could cross huge distances almost instantly - it's just not a particularly useful method of travel unless you're going 'home'.
The Battlefleet Gothic Magazine battle report 'The Orphan World' described a Necron fleet 'decelerating from hyperspeed' periodically in order to use their scanners. If their realspace FTL was just them blinking from point to point, they wouldn't really be decelerating in any meaningful way.
The various times that their hyperspeed' has been described, we also don't see them just instantly appearing at their destination, further suggesting that the 'blink of an eye' quote is either hyperbolic or referring to some other method of travel.
^All fair. I tend to chalk it up to some mix of the above. I still got the sense that they could non-teleport their way around way faster than "galaxy crossing in months" though. As for why fleets aren't just constantly popping in out of nowhere, there's room for it to be a power-resource related thing.
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SgtBANZAI wrote: Judging by recent responses, this seems to have evolved into a thread of general complaints now. Adding my due, I must admit I've always hated Necrons, found their inclusion into the setting to be badly written, found their rework ca. 2012 even more baffling and in general I've come to conclusion they are by far the worst race in the setting from my perspective.
There is not enough hate for the Necrons in this fandom.
I did not like them when they first showed up in the lore in the way that they did. I totally get the dislike for them. I only originally bought the army because I had the opportunity to get a bunch of stuff on store credit, and I had just been watching the Terminator movies. I sort of bought them as a joke. But the more I read into their 3rd ed book, the more I liked them, and now that's honestly one of my favorite codexes ever now. I loved how that army was designed and played, and I think now that the Oldcron lore is some of the best.
For GW to release "Pariah Nexus" or whatever that expansion was called, but not bring back Pariahs as a unit, is just salt in the wound.
Generally speaking, the trick to stop hating the lore is to remember that it isn't real. By that, I mean remembering the process that created it is mostly retroactive and not based on how reality works.
Generally speaking, the lore is about making cool things happen. The lore you love was built the same way. The rules behind the world were created later by people who need that kind of consistent logic, but it wasn't in the original author's mind and how "real" it is for subsequent authors is very hit or miss.
This is pretty inevitable with any long form storytelling that doesn't have a central author. On the plus side, it means sometimes you get incredible new ideas the original wouldn't have thought of and on the negative it means you get regular bouts of hack jobs.
Generally speaking, rule one for enjoying anything of the sort, whether its movies or novels or games or comic books, is to follow the talent and not the IP. If you love a specific work, you're probably not going to get the same love out of someone else's version of it. You are very likely to love that author's take on something entirely different though.
Canon isn't real. A bad story that no one references doesn't have any bearing on a good story later told. Power levels are nonsense. They have no bearing on the outcome of future battles because those battles will do whatever makes them most interesting. Never let new stories ruin what makes the old ones great and never let bad rules get in the way of a good story.
LunarSol wrote: Power levels are nonsense. They have no bearing on the outcome of future battles because those battles will do whatever makes them most interesting.
I did not like them when they first showed up in the lore in the way that they did.
I have no way to prove this, but I've come to suspicion that introducing Necrons (and especially re-introducing their new designs in 2012) probably had unintended consequences of GW eventually deciding they can make up as much over-the-top, galaxy-destroying, reality- and gravity-defying technology as they want, constantly trying to one up their own inventions with each edition change and new background info, and no one will really object to any of that. Of course, Warhammer was never "scientific", it's space fantasy about giant power-armoured knights riding wolves and fighting 50 meters tall robots, but the sheer scale of "press the button, remove reality" powercreep has gone absolutely out of control, I THINK (don't quote me on exact date) roughly when GW decided to redesign the Necrons and also shed some light on technological level of DAOT humanity and old Eldar empire. Since then it's an unending parade of "But wait, there's something even more cool than that!". It becomes tiring for me personally.
There was a short story published in the late 90s about the Eldar trying to dissuade humans from digging up old weapon systems of their destroyed empire on a remote, now-uninhabited planet. In the end the Eldar are forced to activate the weapon themselves just in case it won't get into the bad hands. They make a big deal out of how absolutely, insanely destructive it is and how it's totally worth it to wage war on humans with heavy casualties to stop them from digging it up, and by description it's just a fancier version of Exterminatus that destroys the planet's biosphere and turns it into smoldering rock. Now compare this "unimaginable weapon of old that is so important we've been keeping guard on it for millenia" with this thing from 5th edition Necron codex:
The Celestial Orrery is a device located at the heart of the Necron Crownworld of Thanatos and is considered one of the galaxy's greatest treasures. It was crafted by the artisans of the Oruscar Dynasty long before the War in Heaven and is beyond any price in artistic value alone. This machine consists of a web of holograms and Necrodermis with the various tiny, floating, glowing lights representing a star in the galaxy. Each of these are recorded in an intricate matrix record that contains the locations of every star in the cosmos. An act that snuffs out any of these lights leads to its physical counterpart undergoing a supernova millennia before its time that destroys all the nearby worlds that circle it. Despite this great power, the Royal Court of Thanatos see themselves as gardeners of creation who dispassionately use the Orrery in a precise but sparing manner. They believe in only pruning the galaxy to prevent it from becoming overgrown and wild.
These guys can quite literally push a button and kill everybody in the setting, they just choose not to.
Lord Damocles wrote: As an OG 2nd edition Necron enjoyer, people referencing them like they just showed up in 3rd edition makes me feel sad :(
Haha, fair.
They were like Custodes introduction in 2nd though. So few units, but each one was top tier. I think the issue is that awareness of the Necrons was not very high in those days. I think awareness was much higher after some initial battles against mass ressurecting Warriors in 3rd, seeing how many rules the Monolith avoided, and seeing that the Nightbringer could carve a Bloodthirster in half with relative ease. And I definitely remember at least a decade of ire from Eldar players who were offended at Necron lore.
Do you remember when GW did that super metal Necron offer in late 2nd/early 3rd? I recall almost buying that at the time.
Trickstick wrote: I remember getting a free necron on the cover of white dwarf, I think the issue with the Sanctuary 101 batrep. Were necrons around before that?
I don't think so. There was the old Chaos Android, but the concept of Necrons didn't exist to my knowledge.
This thread is interesting, as the usual suspects for topics like these are Cawl, Primaris, Tau, that thing that made the Tyranids come to the Milky way and something something Horus Heresy was cool when we didn't know anything about it but names.
Instead it's mostly about Necrons for a change
waefre_1 wrote: (Also, and this is probably a me thing, I really liked the title up until I realized that it's literally just the names of the main characters.)
Oh no. I've only just realised that. :(
More seriously, I liked the Infinite and the Divine. It reminds me of some of the more high concept yet 'pulpy' sci-fi novels out there.
Take an interesting concept, add good point of view characters and see how wild the setting gets.
Think "A Mote in God's Eye", "Ringworld", "The Way", even "The Long Earth".
While it's no Eisenhorn, it definitely feels like a book with good ideas in it if you are willing to ignore the weaker points in the story.
However *I* have no emotional attachment to the Oldcrons, so the wacky hijinks of Doctor Reverso and Klepto-Man weren't a turn-off for me.
I've had The Infinite and the Divine on my shelf for ages, but I haven't got round to reading it yet.
People say that it's the best 40k book in years, but having read a LOT of Necron material, and all of Trazyn's previous appearances, I'm expecting to be disappointed by Necrons who are essentially wacky tomb kings in spaaace, basically indistinguishable from human characters, and Trazyn being an idiot who gets his museum trashed for the umpteenth time...
The Infinite and the Divine is 99% a Spy vs Spy cartoon with whacky necrons. If you don't love that concept, you're probably not going to enjoy the book. And yeah, their motivations and personalities are pretty human-like. I'm not sure any xenos in 40k with the capacity for speech has ever actually been all that "alien" in terms of personality.
To those who prefer the faceless horde of mysterious old school 'crons, I feel like you can absolutely still lean into that even with the modern fluff. You just frame your army's lore, battle reports, etc. from the enemy perspective and lean into non-verbal units like warriors and canopteks. From the point of view of the imperial colonists they're disintegrating, these are still mysterious, unspeaking aliens made of metal with eerily inhuman proportions and strange weapons. It's just that there's room for personality, internecine conflicts, etc. for those who want that sort of thing.
I will say that “The Infinite and the Divine” was more enjoyable as an audiobook. The reader does an amazing job capturing the petulance of two very irrational near immortals. It’s a fun book and for the most part not that deep. I’d argue though that there isn’t a deep 40k book. These are for pure entertainment.
Personally I prefer a little bit of character to the necrons. It’s far more fun for me to see eccentric litches that came back just a bit off. Plus you can always make your tomb world in line with the old lore. There’s plenty of worlds running basically just on programming. It just gives other options beyond undead silver tide.
Cyel wrote: Necrons are a good example for what I said about not digging too much into the lore. Early they were just this menacing outline of an incomprehensible lovecraftian cosmic horror (just with living metal instead of tentacles) and they were cool.
Then someone decided to explain as much as possible about them, their chatacter and motivations and all the mystery went POOF! and it turned out Necrons are just dudes like you and me, but robots. Arrrgh!
Just stay with the outlines and you'll be ok. No need to delve into what writers have to produce out of their asses to get their monthly paychecks.
No, they're a good example of how being a wargame necessitates you give your armies more opportunity for flair and individual personality.
Because it was the fans themselves who clamored for this change. The third edition Necrons were one of the most derided major factions of the game, for their uniformity, blandness, and perceived fluff overpoweredness.. You probably don't remember it, but I was on this site and others when the fifth edition codex came out. And the reaction was largely positive, people were happy they could not characterize their Necrons the way they wanted. And I remember this because I was a diehard butthurt oldcrons defender at the time who hated Ward's fluff. I hated the gutting of the C'tan, hated the more outwardly expressive and at times comical personalities of the Necrons.
But as I've grown older I've realized something. Not that I now prefer the newer lore, oh no. It's that at that time unlike the vast majority of the fanbase my primary interaction with the setting wasn't with the tabletop itself, it was in the stories (both codex and BL), and more importantly the tabletop games. I was okay with the Necrons having a much narrower range of emotions and characterization than all of the armies at the time sans Tyranids (and no I did not and still don't particularly understand why Tyranids escaped this criticism other than maybe being grandfathered in compared to the Necrons). I didn't view them as a vehicle for me to explore a narrative on the battlefield (and indeed, even now I still don't find forging a narrative through the actual wargame especially compelling and much prefer the pen and paper games) and thought they were perfectly compelling as a chillingly logical and dead alternative death to the one you find from the horrifyingly alive and emotive Chaos.
To put it simply, they were fine for me but for someone who might want to play the army and make them yourdudez? The old fluff didn't give you much to work with. It sucks for me but I kind of get where people were coming from then. My point is basically that it seems a little weird to blame it on the writers when it was really the fans themselves who were clamoring for it and the newcrons are considerably more popular than the oldcrons ever were. Oh well.
Presumably because you're an adult who could make better use of your time than devoting it to reading a children's 40k novel, a combination of two things that are disproportionately bad and not worth reading, making it double as likely that you'll hit a dud.
Why don't you think that children deserve good writing?
So let's get one thing out of the way: what you are complaining about is pedantic nerd gak. There is not a child alive that gives a single gak that a child was able to pilot a Tau battlesuit despite it being logically highly improbable. They read that and say "Hell yeah I have the power of God!" because it's just goofy childish wish fulfillment. Just like how no child complains about Billy Batson being an effective and competent hero despite being a child as Shazam, or about four literal children becoming kings and queens of Narnia at the end of the first book. Or Ender becoming the savior of humanity by destroying the Formics in Ender's Game. None of these stories depict a "realistic" level of competence for the child characters but the child to young teen audience don't care and think it's awesome.
So no, you can not hold a work explicitly aimed for literal children whose brains are not fully developed yet to the exact same standards as one written for adults. Which isn't to say you can't criticize a children's work. If one of the Warhammer Adventures books has a morale at the end that extols the virtues of xenophobia that might be worth complaining about because it sends a bad message to children. From what I understand there in fact is a WA book that does have this morale incidentally, and though certanly "lore accurate" for the setting it is by no means "good writing" considering the audience and really just indicates to me that children's 40k novels were a bad idea from the start.
But nerd gak like "oh well that's ILLOGICAL considering the ESTABLISHED LORE"? No, not an interesting critique of this literal children's work, just like all the bad faith criticisms of Disney's Beauty and the Beast weren't interesting then. Get over it.
I disagree, new Blood Angel high-fiving, relatable, dudes-with-quirks Necrons are a huge step back from incomprehensible lovecraftian cosmic horror in my opinion. But I also find Call of Cthulhu or Dark Souls more compelling than D&D or Fortnight so of course preferences may vary.
Void__Dragon wrote: d the newcrons are considerably more popular than the oldcrons ever were. Oh well.
Nothing to do with the expanded model line or anything? 40k had plenty of room for Your Dudes outside of necrons, the cool cosmic horror faction didn't have to die for that.
Not that pre-5th ed. Necrons actually were devoid of personalities - we had many examples of Necrons talking, Lords persuing their own agendas, and numerous different colour schemes...
That whole rant reminds me of some quote like "Childeren's literature is too often used as a sanctuary for bad writers."
Like the ol' "Those who can't, teach." Similarly "Those who can't write, write YA fiction."
Just because something is aimed at a less sophisticated audience, doesn't mean it's shielded from critique. Besides, this is a nerd forum. Therefore it's the appropriate place for "pedantic nerd gak."
. . .
As for Necrons, meh Newcrons suck. At the very least Oldcrons could have retained support while "personality options" (blech) were added in. Make a distinction between forces that were controlled by independent Necron Lords and free from the C'tan, and old-school forces that were still loyal to/controlled by the C'tan. You get even more options for "your dudes" that way.
Presumably because you're an adult who could make better use of your time than devoting it to reading a children's 40k novel, a combination of two things that are disproportionately bad and not worth reading, making it double as likely that you'll hit a dud
Cool. I'll spend my time doing as I please, thank you.
You could be out there finding a cure for cancer, but instead you're complaining about people engaging in 'pedantic nerd s**t' instead, so..?
So let's get one thing out of the way: what you are complaining about is pedantic nerd gak.
Cool. Don't care. Irrelevant.
Void__Dragon wrote: There is not a child alive that gives a single gak that a child was able to pilot a Tau battlesuit despite it being logically highly improbable.
Cool. Don't care. There's no reason a childrens' book shouldn't ALSO be able to be consistent with the universe which it's set in.
Void__Dragon wrote: Which isn't to say you can't criticize a children's work. If one of the Warhammer Adventures books has a morale at the end that extols the virtues of xenophobia that might be worth complaining about because it sends a bad message to children. From what I understand there in fact is a WA book that does have this morale incidentally, and though certanly "lore accurate" for the setting it is by no means "good writing" considering the audience and really just indicates to me that children's 40k novels were a bad idea from the start.
I assume that you're referring to Talen in Secrets of the Tau (a plot point which goes nowhere, by the way).
It is 'good writing' in so far as it is logically consistent for the character(s). Within the last couple of weeks, Talen has had his home planet blown up by Necrons, presumably resulting in the deaths of his entire family; he's had a genestealer try to hypnotise/kill him; an ambul tried to turn him into paste; a kroot just came within a hairs breadth of murdering him; and the only 'friendly' alien that they've encountered has almost gotten him and his friends killed multiple times through inaction. He should be xenophobic as all hell.
Besides which, in the more detailed critique from the post(s) I linked to earlier, I point out multiple other non-lore problems with the Adventures books - illustrations not matching the text, events being described which didn't actually happen, the moral messaging around stealing being... problematic, etc.
It is possible to complain about one thing without also having to complain about every other possible thing at the same time.
If one of the Adventures books does extol the virtues of xenophobia though, you can't complain about it can you though. Because they're books for children - they're not for you.
And you're a Chad, not some sort of turbo-nerd who would stoop so low as to complain about a children's book...
Void__Dragon wrote: d the newcrons are considerably more popular than the oldcrons ever were. Oh well.
Nothing to do with the expanded model line or anything? 40k had plenty of room for Your Dudes outside of necrons, the cool cosmic horror faction didn't have to die for that.
I would believe the commercially driven argument for this.
I, as a necron player, actually sort of prefer the necrons in their newer iteration without accepting it wholesale, as said above, picking what I like, and leaving what I don't, kind of merging both.
However, overall, I'm leaning toward newer necrons because them being more developped allows me to flesh out stories easier I think.
But I'm still somewhat on the fence, because the necrons as eldritch, enigmatic cosmic horrors that don't seem to reason nor explain themselves is great also because it, like the tyranids, makes them another truly alien race. But stories are not as varied from that starting point I believe. That's only an opinion.
In my personnal head canon for my necrons, while some politics and planning happen, and with more stratas of their society showcased, they do not communicate with others if not to force them into their bidding or threaten them with death if they don't leave an area, without explaination. Somewhat as Dawn of War used to portray them in Dark Crusade. And their Goal IS to wipe anyone else out. Middle of the road.
The beauty of it all is still that it is not real, so you do whatever pleases you, and nothing stops you from collecting a necron army revolving around 3rd edition (or 2nd for that matter) units and sticking to 3rd edition lore. Who cares after all.
Cyel wrote:I disagree, new Blood Angel high-fiving, relatable, dudes-with-quirks Necrons are a huge step back from incomprehensible lovecraftian cosmic horror in my opinion. But I also find Call of Cthulhu or Dark Souls more compelling than D&D or Fortnight so of course preferences may vary.
I do find that whole story weird, though not necessarily for the reasons you'd think. Not sure if you've actually read the relevant short story. It's not so much that the BA and necrons sat down around the war table and coordinated plans together. It was more that they agreed to stop fighting each other until the necrons were dealt with so that there would still be a planet to fight over. And of course, both factions were fully planning to betray the other.
That much seems fine. Necrons not being able to automatically delete a hive fleet is fair enough, and opting to let a bunch of humans die instead of wasting finite necron resources seems like a decent plan if it's doable. The weird part is the bit where the Silent King opts to break probably the biggest taboo associated with his status and talk, and he talks to a non-cron. I guess... maybe he thinks so little of humans that it doesn't count as breaking his silence because humans don't count as people? The equivalent of talking to himself in an empty room?
Insectum7 wrote:
As for Necrons, meh Newcrons suck. At the very least Oldcrons could have retained support while "personality options" (blech) were added in. Make a distinction between forces that were controlled by independent Necron Lords and free from the C'tan, and old-school forces that were still loyal to/controlled by the C'tan. You get even more options for "your dudes" that way.
Can't you still do that in your army's fluff though? Like, you can still include a C'tan, fluff him as being in charge, and then field nothing but classic 'crons if you want, right? Seems easy enough to say that a Deceiver shard got loose and is enjoying tormenting/using the tomb world he overpowered.
Part of it, I think, is just choosing to limit the audience perspective. Like, Cthulhu 'crons may have been mysterious, but there was presumably always an in-universe reason for their actions even if it wasn't made clear and canon to the audience. I get that the mystery is spooky and adds atmosphere, but you functionally end up with the same thing if you just opt to limit your own units' personalities. (Possibly because of the aforementioned C'tan thing.)
Wyldhunt wrote: The weird part is the bit where the Silent King opts to break probably the biggest taboo associated with his status and talk, and he talks to a non-cron.
I dunno, for my money the Silent King wearing a mask of Sanguinius' face while meeting Dante was probably weirder...
Just a point but the mindless Necrons operating on automatic do still exist. They were never written out of the lore. Indeed the bulk of their forces are mindless, or better put they are lacking of will. It's really only the very upper elite of their forces that have a "mind" to them.
So you can get Tomb worlds here the leading ranks don't awaken - disaster destroys their tombs or they fail to awaken etc...
There's also the Canoptek which are fully automatic machines.
Also the whole unknowable unstoppable eldritch horror from space (with tentacles) is kind of already done by Tyranids. Sure they are living not mechanical, but they were doing what the old crons were doing before the old crons were a concept.
So I rather welcome the divide and the evolution of the Necron forces and lore. I also think that it does give you more scope for writing your own stories with your own Necrons. Are they a tomb world that's damaged and essentially a mindless force marching to the beat of war from an eternity ago; are they led by a smart leader who knows what's going on and wants to rebuild his empire of old and wipe the slate clean from all these upstart young races; is the leader slightly nuts and envisioning things of old;etc... There's a lot of scope there for which way you want to go and all of them are valid.
Overread wrote: Just a point but the mindless Necrons operating on automatic do still exist. They were never written out of the lore. Indeed the bulk of their forces are mindless, or better put they are lacking of will. It's really only the very upper elite of their forces that have a "mind" to them.
So you can get Tomb worlds here the leading ranks don't awaken - disaster destroys their tombs or they fail to awaken etc...
There's also the Canoptek which are fully automatic machines.
Also the whole unknowable unstoppable eldritch horror from space (with tentacles) is kind of already done by Tyranids. Sure they are living not mechanical, but they were doing what the old crons were doing before the old crons were a concept.
So I rather welcome the divide and the evolution of the Necron forces and lore. I also think that it does give you more scope for writing your own stories with your own Necrons. Are they a tomb world that's damaged and essentially a mindless force marching to the beat of war from an eternity ago; are they led by a smart leader who knows what's going on and wants to rebuild his empire of old and wipe the slate clean from all these upstart young races; is the leader slightly nuts and envisioning things of old;etc... There's a lot of scope there for which way you want to go and all of them are valid.
I am amazed at how much better you explained what I tried to and probably miserably failed to exalted for the cause of the blasphemous nu-crons fans
I like the "new" Necrons (normal for me because I joined the hobby 2018, well after the change).
They are a great outlook on what can go wrong in the pursuit of immortality.
Nobles (the rich) keeping most of their intellect and gaining additionally capabilities, while the masses lose everything but the most basic functionalities is such a bleak outlook. Adding in the constant risk of tiny errors escalating in the perpetual reconstruction of the Necron body, each "death" carrying the risk of being the final one. It's a dark outlook where we as humans living right now could go wrong in the future, and 40k for me is full of such warnings. It's definitely more interesting to me then "robots with no known goal that can't be ever beaten".
I count lore (FLUFF) different to the stories. The lore/fluff is the 'what they are' and these are descriptions of what the units are, their place in their faction and the factions place in the overall universe; their culture, what makes them who they are from the background; what event shaped these space marines to be what they are like now? how do the aspect warriors ritualise before battle? what's the reason for why this guard regiment is uniformed in such way and why they prefer certain tactics? What is this character's role and position in their faction and the world at large?
That was the interesting part of the background. Stories (at least post 3rd edition) and novels tended to fall flat for me.
Insectum7 wrote: And I definitely remember at least a decade of ire from Eldar players who were offended at Necron lore.
Two decades now and counting!
Though funnily enough, I kind of like the new Necrons.
Also the whole unknowable unstoppable eldritch horror from space (with tentacles) is kind of already done by Tyranids. Sure they are living not mechanical, but they were doing what the old crons were doing before the old crons were a concept.
Hmm, I absolutely don't see Tyranids like that. They are animals, a natural disaster, a river of instinct driven fire ants or locust but on a galactic scale. Something very different from ancient gods that fed on stars and make you mad if you even try to comprehend them.
Brickfix wrote: It's definitely more interesting to me then "robots with no known goal that can't be ever beaten".
If your author can't write them with a known goal in mind then they do not actually have a goal and any mystique that you get out of them is empty mystery box garbage that will ultimately disappoint.
For a long time, the 40k fluff was centered around the concept that in a super fast galaxy, whatever you do doesn't matter one whit.
That's terrific and terrible- it allows players to create their own force with their own personal lore and have it all fit somewhere within the setting. They made sure to leave holes for you to fill in.
But the issue with that is still the "nothing you do matters" meaning that by definition your games are always for low stakes and none of the characters you make up can actually accomplish anything because the universe is too big and individuals are too small.
But when they write fiction, they feel a need to make space marines into the most absurd action heroes and the setting seems to revolve around them.
- It also seems like they spend a lot of time building up threats that never actually win any conflicts. When they introduced Tyranids, it seemed like this inevitable force eating its way from world to world- but they've nearly lost every major conflict with the Imperium.
Brickfix wrote: It's definitely more interesting to me then "robots with no known goal that can't be ever beaten".
If your author can't write them with a known goal in mind then they do not actually have a goal and any mystique that you get out of them is empty mystery box garbage that will ultimately disappoint.
Sure. If I would write a story about "mindless automations without known goal" I would of course know the goal, just not disclose it to the reader, for the mystery. Any halfway competent writer would have the same idea, as it is not very hard to either get that idea on your own or get it from someone else.
But it is off course difficult to write a story from the Necron perspective if they are all mindless automatons controlled by star gods. I liked the recent Necron novels because their characters seemed deep and complex enough to entertain me. And that's really all I need from these novels, a little bit of escapism and inspiration for my own homebrew ideas.
Brickfix wrote: It's definitely more interesting to me then "robots with no known goal that can't be ever beaten".
If your author can't write them with a known goal in mind then they do not actually have a goal and any mystique that you get out of them is empty mystery box garbage that will ultimately disappoint.
Sure. If I would write a story about "mindless automations without known goal" I would of course know the goal, just not disclose it to the reader, for the mystery. Any halfway competent writer would have the same idea, as it is not very hard to either get that idea on your own or get it from someone else.
But it is off course difficult to write a story from the Necron perspective if they are all mindless automatons controlled by star gods. I liked the recent Necron novels because their characters seemed deep and complex enough to entertain me. And that's really all I need from these novels, a little bit of escapism and inspiration for my own homebrew ideas.
That can definitely be done by a single writer in control of the entire narrative. It just doesn't work when you have a bunch of different writers working on it. Granted, I don't think anyone had a plan in mind for what the Necrons were after when they were created. Unknown goals were very much a placeholder.
Also the whole unknowable unstoppable eldritch horror from space (with tentacles) is kind of already done by Tyranids. Sure they are living not mechanical, but they were doing what the old crons were doing before the old crons were a concept.
Hmm, I absolutely don't see Tyranids like that. They are animals, a natural disaster, a river of instinct driven fire ants or locust but on a galactic scale. Something very different from ancient gods that fed on stars and make you mad if you even try to comprehend them.
And there in you've made the first mistake - thinking of them as simple animals
The Tyranids are far more than simple bestial instinct. what they actually want, what their driver and interest are is totally unknown. Domination, conquest, food, flight, whatever it is that drives them is unknown. All we know is what they do - which is feed and even that isn't mindless feeding like ravenous locusts. They plot, scheme; their feeding is tactical, driven by an unknown, unfathomably will of the Hive Mind. Heck even we as players don't even know how things like the Hive Mind truly work.
We've more understanding of the C'tan and Necrons even in the old lore than we do of the machinations and wills of the Hive Mind and Tyranids.
Tyranids are the true horror from space. The true unknown, unstoppable, unflinching terror. Where one dies a billion more rise to replace; where any weakness is bred out; where any new challenge is surmounted by a fearsome intelligence that directs from the shadows
- The way that you "stop hating the lore" is the same as with Marvel or DC comics.
No matter who your favorite comic hero is, they've had a bad writer at some point, or a bad run or some horrendous retcon that completely destroys the character, or even just a writer that simply has a different idea about a character..
Well, just ignore the bits you hate.
(For example- that time Cyclops abandoned his wife and child to go hang out with his ex-girlfriend who had returned from the dead and didn't even call and check up on his actual family or tell his dead ex about his married life- and years later they made his abandoned wife into a super villain clone in order to justify his nonsense, but it doesn't really justify it because Cyclops didn't know any of that stuff that they hadn't written yet. Yep, wouldn't be awful to ignore that bit of official continuity when reading about Cyclops in later stories)
I personally take issue with the scale creep of primarchs. Back in the day, marines weren't crazy huge monsters and primarchs could pass as unaltered humans except to the point that the Emperor recognized them all based on their heroic accomplishments.
Making them all into ten foot tall behemoths looks good on the table, but it makes one's head scratch at the thought of Night Haunter having a secret identity or Alpharius being indistinguishable from his legionnaires.
Automatically Appended Next Post: - By the way, I think it is quite clear that GW writers intentionally leave holes in the lore to be used later on. A lot of their ideas definitely aren't "this was the plan from the start" so much as a sort of emergent creation.
I think that the lore about the Necrons might have started emerging with the Eye of Terror- specifically the battle for the Black Library which was primarily between Thousand Sons and Eldar, but necrons could participate.
GW commented on how necrons overwhelmingly were protecting the library (ie- necron players fought against chaos a lot)
Comic books - or at least DC/Marvel superheroes - I feel are in a league of their own because they get repeated and adjusted so often its almost insane. Some of the big names are retold so many times over that you really can pick whatever flavour you want and there's probably a Batman out there that fits.
Heck its one reason I avoid DC/Marvel because I'm the kind of person that likes to know the whole story and those comics just present such a VAST amount of material that it would cost a fortune to catch up (not to mention be super super messy working out what order to read it all in)
odinsgrandson wrote: But when they write fiction, they feel a need to make space marines into the most absurd action heroes and the setting seems to revolve around them.
- It also seems like they spend a lot of time building up threats that never actually win any conflicts. When they introduced Tyranids, it seemed like this inevitable force eating its way from world to world- but they've nearly lost every major conflict with the Imperium.
Yep. If you have a main space marine chapter you know they're at worst going to earn a draw and they're usually going to have a heroic victory against whatever NPC faction they're fighting. No stakes, no development of the setting, only bolter porn for 14 year old boys to fantasize about. GW needs to tone down the marine focus and let them lose sometimes. Let the entire Ultramarines chapter be wiped out by a GSC uprising. Let the Black Templars have to choose between humbling themselves and begging for help from a guard regiment and their psyker support or fighting a last stand that permanently ends the chapter's existence in the setting. Have the Salamanders tell Daddy Ultrasmurf exactly where he can shove his primaris abominations, execute Cawl for tech heresy, and drag the Imperium into civil war. Have most books not include even a single marine.
But alas bolter porn sells and you can have any random hack author put out a whole Black Library series in a month or two for minimum budget and GW doesn't have enough ambition to challenge the easy status quo.
Cyel wrote: I disagree, new Blood Angel high-fiving, relatable, dudes-with-quirks Necrons are a huge step back from incomprehensible lovecraftian cosmic horror in my opinion. But I also find Call of Cthulhu or Dark Souls more compelling than D&D or Fortnight so of course preferences may vary.
You disagree with what? It's not my opinion that newcrons were immediately more popular than oldcrons ever were it's a fact. I vastly preferred the oldcrons as well but that doesn't change the fact they were one of the least liked armies, particularly from a fluff standpoint.
Void__Dragon wrote: d the newcrons are considerably more popular than the oldcrons ever were. Oh well.
Nothing to do with the expanded model line or anything? 40k had plenty of room for Your Dudes outside of necrons, the cool cosmic horror faction didn't have to die for that.
But they did. And most players prefer it that way I'm sad to say.
ThePaintingOwl wrote: Yep. If you have a main space marine chapter you know they're at worst going to earn a draw and they're usually going to have a heroic victory against whatever NPC faction they're fighting. No stakes, no development of the setting, only bolter porn for 14 year old boys to fantasize about. GW needs to tone down the marine focus and let them lose sometimes. Let the entire Ultramarines chapter be wiped out by a GSC uprising. Let the Black Templars have to choose between humbling themselves and begging for help from a guard regiment and their psyker support or fighting a last stand that permanently ends the chapter's existence in the setting. Have the Salamanders tell Daddy Ultrasmurf exactly where he can shove his primaris abominations, execute Cawl for tech heresy, and drag the Imperium into civil war. Have most books not include even a single marine.
But alas bolter porn sells and you can have any random hack author put out a whole Black Library series in a month or two for minimum budget and GW doesn't have enough ambition to challenge the easy status quo.
Good gravy the amount of angst and edge in this post is insane. I agree with the wider point that 40k needs to be less Astartes-centric but damn dude take it down a notch.
Let the entire Ultramarines chapter be wiped out by a GSC uprising. Let the Black Templars have to choose between humbling themselves and begging for help from a guard regiment and their psyker support or fighting a last stand that permanently ends the chapter's existence in the setting. Have the Salamanders tell Daddy Ultrasmurf exactly where he can shove his primaris abominations, execute Cawl for tech heresy, and drag the Imperium into civil war.
Why stop there, let's just kill every single Space Marine in the setting while you're at it.
ThePaintingOwl wrote: Yep. If you have a main space marine chapter you know they're at worst going to earn a draw and they're usually going to have a heroic victory against whatever NPC faction they're fighting. No stakes, no development of the setting, only bolter porn for 14 year old boys to fantasize about. GW needs to tone down the marine focus and let them lose sometimes. Let the entire Ultramarines chapter be wiped out by a GSC uprising. Let the Black Templars have to choose between humbling themselves and begging for help from a guard regiment and their psyker support or fighting a last stand that permanently ends the chapter's existence in the setting. Have the Salamanders tell Daddy Ultrasmurf exactly where he can shove his primaris abominations, execute Cawl for tech heresy, and drag the Imperium into civil war. Have most books not include even a single marine.
But alas bolter porn sells and you can have any random hack author put out a whole Black Library series in a month or two for minimum budget and GW doesn't have enough ambition to challenge the easy status quo.
Good gravy the amount of angst and edge in this post is insane. I agree with the wider point that 40k needs to be less Astartes-centric but damn dude take it down a notch.
Nah sergeantbob is not going to do that.
And neither is gw going to burn money doing what he suggests. Shows bob has zero business sense.
(also if you are faithfull to fluff ultramarines are practically impossible to kill off without killing off imperium which is game over. Apart from Guillimann(warp powered creature needing basically warp to kill off) allowing recreation if needed imperium has enough ultramarine geneseed they can recreate ultramarienes over several times)
Tyranids DID eat their way to the Ultramarine homeworld and tore a huge chunk of them up. Granted the marines survived, but they paid a heavy price for it!
Overread wrote: Tyranids DID eat their way to the Ultramarine homeworld and tore a huge chunk of them up. Granted the marines survived, but they paid a heavy price for it!
And Battlefleet Bakka saved the day, but barely anyone even remembers them...
Gert wrote: Good gravy the amount of angst and edge in this post is insane. I agree with the wider point that 40k needs to be less Astartes-centric but damn dude take it down a notch.
GW destroying marine factions: "oh god edge stop it".
GW destroying NPC factions: "excellent way to advance the plot".
Nothing I suggested there is any worse than what GW has done to non-marine factions, if you object to it that strongly you should question your marine bias.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SgtBANZAI wrote: Why stop there, let's just kill every single Space Marine in the setting while you're at it.
I love how "marines should suffer losses like every other faction" is treated as equivalent to GW killing off all marines in the setting. Do marine fans genuinely not read any non-marine fluff and see examples of non-marine factions losing or are they so used to winning that anything less than total victory is an attack on their beloved faction?
The main difference is Tyranids have 1 model set - Tyranids. Same for every other faction. So if one subfaction dies out or takes critical losses, the faction remains identical on the tabletop.
Marines are different. Their subfactions have unique models and subgroups of their own. If you destroy all Ultramarines then that's actually a dedicated set of models GW produces and sells and markets and a selection of specific players who are cut out.
Marines are the only army this applies too - Imperial Guard are a "bit" similar but since there's really only one core force (cadian) and then one unit box or so per sub-group as flavour, its not quite the same. You destroy all Catatchans and the IG player only loses 1 box of models. Still a loss and not one I'd want them to have, but its vastly different to wiping out a key marine subgroup.
GW destroying marine factions: "oh god edge stop it".
GW destroying NPC factions: "excellent way to advance the plot".
What "NPC" factions or subfactions has GW actually destroyed? Totally destroyed? Like you propose to completely destroy the most famous Space Marine chapter?
SgtBANZAI wrote: What "NPC" factions or subfactions has GW actually destroyed? Totally destroyed? Like you propose to completely destroy the most famous Space Marine chapters?
Hive Fleet Behemoth: totally wiped out.
Cadia: homeworld destroyed, all but a few off-planet survivors killed.
The marine favoritism is obvious given that the destruction of Cadia is a very recent piece of lore, not some barely-remembered thing from 2nd edition.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overread wrote: Marines are different. Their subfactions have unique models and subgroups of their own. If you destroy all Ultramarines then that's actually a dedicated set of models GW produces and sells and markets and a selection of specific players who are cut out.
This is exactly the problem though. Every marine chapter gets to be treated as its own separate faction, while NPC factions have all their regiments/hive fleets/etc be treated as interchangeable color schemes. Ultramarines vs. Salamanders shouldn't be any different from Cadians vs. Catachans.
But aside from that there's no reason models from dead factions can't be kept in production for use in "historical" games set before the destruction of the faction, or to represent isolated survivors who were not present for the final battle. It's fine for Cadian models to represent the last dying remnants of the faction after Cadia was destroyed, why can't Ultramarines players deal with the same treatment?
The thing is lore tends to advance along one rough timeline. If you destroy a faction in lore then why should that faction ever get any new models? They won't do anything to advance with the story so they are off to one side.
This means its very likely the firm won't tell new stories; won't advance hteir plot; won't give them new models or updated sculpts.
Gamers don't like playing armies that get nothing new because armies with nothing new are often armies that slowly get left out. They don't get the same balance/rules passes; they don't get production perks; they don't get the lime light or attention and they often drift to the side for ages or are just flat out removed from the game.
In the end the lore always serves the product
If you want stories where whole factions and races and such die off - read regular books.
Cadia: homeworld destroyed, all but a few off-planet survivors killed.
The marine favoritism is obvious given that the destruction of Cadia is a very recent piece of lore, not some barely-remembered thing from 2nd edition.
Behemoth is very explicitly not gone because the Imperium has never been able to wipe it out. The main tendril into Macragge was destroyed along with others but the whole fleet was never eradicated, hence why Behemoth got sub-faction rules when they were introduced. Weird that for a Hive Fleet that supposedly got wiped out.
Cadia is a sector not just a planet and there are millions if not billions of Cadian Guardsmen running around the wider galaxy. They also got an ongoing book series specifically centered around a survivor of the destruction of their home planet and got a bunch of new models as well. Again, very hard to see how Cadian's specifically have been thrown under the bus. Catachans or any other Regiment that previously got models? Absolutely but Cadians? Not a chance.
It brings me many chuckles when people claim the background is terrible now and then just don't know what they're on about.
Overread wrote: If you want stories where whole factions and races and such die off - read regular books.
Except in 40k factions do die off, as long as they're only NPC factions and not marine chapters (other than expendable minor chapters that die in the book they were created for).
A faction is still destroyed to advance the plot even if GW throws in a token "there were a few survivors who weren't at the final battle" so you can continue to use your existing army.
The main body of the fleet was destroyed, but it was not totally wiped out, as multiple fragments survived, often even bearing the same colours. Behemoth remnants broke free out of Anphelion project, for example.
ThePaintingOwl wrote: Cadia: homeworld destroyed, all but a few off-planet survivors killed.
Define "a few". There were multiple Cadian regiments throughout the galaxy at the time of its destruction. We also know it is possible for the regiments to claim the planets they've liberated as special reward for their services; if said planet was previously uninhabited, majority of its population will be Cadian descendents. After Cadia's destruction, some of its original population founded another colony:
Imperial forces escaping Cadia's destruction would later arrive in the Agripinaa System, however, and they fought the invaders. Among them was the Cadian General Isaia Bendikt and, after the System was cleansed, he declared Chaeros was to be renamed as New Cadia.
ThePaintingOwl wrote: A faction is still destroyed to advance the plot even if GW throws in a token "there were a few survivors who weren't at the final battle" so you can continue to use your existing army.
SgtBANZAI wrote: Define "a few". There were multiple Cadian regiments throughout the galaxy at the time of its destruction. We also know it is possible for the regiments to claim the planets they've liberated as special reward for their services; if said planet was previously uninhabited, majority of its population will be Cadian descendents. After Cadia's destruction, some of its original population founded another colony:
So, exactly like the Ultramarines being destroyed but their successor chapters carrying on the traditions of their parent chapter.
SgtBANZAI wrote: Define "a few". There were multiple Cadian regiments throughout the galaxy at the time of its destruction. We also know it is possible for the regiments to claim the planets they've liberated as special reward for their services; if said planet was previously uninhabited, majority of its population will be Cadian descendents. After Cadia's destruction, some of its original population founded another colony:
So, exactly like the Ultramarines being destroyed but their successor chapters carrying on the traditions of their parent chapter.
Since Ultras act more like a Legion than a Chapter, do you mean 1,000 Marines (including Calgar, Chronos, various other UM named characters) being killed?
Because your post made it seem more like "The entire Ultramar sector goes kaput, with Ultramarines and most all their successors gone too."
JNAProductions wrote: Since Ultras act more like a Legion than a Chapter, do you mean 1,000 Marines (including Calgar, Chronos, various other UM named characters) being killed?
Because your post made it seem more like "The entire Ultramar sector goes kaput, with Ultramarines and most all their successors gone too."
I mean the Ultramarines specifically, with the rest of the sector suffering losses like the Fall of Cadia. But I don't particularly care which chapters die or for which reason, feel free to have the Iron Hands wiped out by the GSC uprising with only successor chapters remaining. It's not about killing off the Ultramarines specifically (though they need to lose their near-monopoly on being the face of the IP), it's about ending the absurd and boring as hell situation where any time a "real" chapter appears in a story they're almost guaranteed to win and only non-marine factions will ever suffer meaningful losses.
Though now that you mention it, the Imperium deciding to stop tolerating the Ultramarines acting like a 30k-era legion in defiance of Imperial law would make an excellent plot point, far better than the GSC uprising. An Imperial fleet descends upon the realms of Ultramar, the Ultramarines are declared to be traitors, and the chapter homeworld is destroyed by guard and navy forces with virtually all of the chapter (and some expendable minor successors) dying in the final stand. Forces from the successor chapters and secondary worlds arrive to drive off the initial fleet and force a stalemate, perhaps with some of the successors begging the Imperium for mercy and accepting penance crusades to clear the shame of their treason.
JNAProductions wrote: Since Ultras act more like a Legion than a Chapter, do you mean 1,000 Marines (including Calgar, Chronos, various other UM named characters) being killed?
Because your post made it seem more like "The entire Ultramar sector goes kaput, with Ultramarines and most all their successors gone too."
I mean the Ultramarines specifically, with the rest of the sector suffering losses like the Fall of Cadia. But I don't particularly care which chapters die or for which reason, feel free to have the Iron Hands wiped out by the GSC uprising with only successor chapters remaining. It's not about killing off the Ultramarines specifically (though they need to lose their near-monopoly on being the face of the IP), it's about ending the absurd and boring as hell situation where any time a "real" chapter appears in a story they're almost guaranteed to win and only non-marine factions will ever suffer meaningful losses.
Though now that you mention it, the Imperium deciding to stop tolerating the Ultramarines acting like a 30k-era legion in defiance of Imperial law would make an excellent plot point, far better than the GSC uprising. An Imperial fleet descends upon the realms of Ultramar, the Ultramarines are declared to be traitors, and the chapter homeworld is destroyed by guard and navy forces with virtually all of the chapter (and some expendable minor successors) dying in the final stand. Forces from the successor chapters and secondary worlds arrive to drive off the initial fleet and force a stalemate, perhaps with some of the successors begging the Imperium for mercy and accepting penance crusades to clear the shame of their treason.
I'm no fan of the Ultras, but your hate-boner is something else. Two points:
A.) The Ultras and Primogenitor Chapters have no unitary command structure, unlike the Dark Angels.
B.) Comparing successor chapters to Cadian regiments is hilariously ignorant.
Dang the amount of ultramarines hate made me check what year it was. Matt Ward is gone you don’t have to hate a faction to be one of the cool kids anymore. The massive amount of hatred for the literal poster emblem for the game aside, GW has destroyed a first founding chapter. The fists explicitly all died. The Blood Angels got close. Even if it were to to occur, the Imperium would simply force successors to donate marines to revive the destroyed first founding chapter. A totalitarian empire like the Imperium would never accept the loss of prestige from a founding element getting destroyed like that. The destruction would accomplish nothing beyond dating your own grudges. Especially for a chapter that probably is one of the most well documented. I always do find it amusing when people suggest a faction or group gets removed. Funnily enough it’s never one they use.
Overread wrote: Tyranids DID eat their way to the Ultramarine homeworld and tore a huge chunk of them up. Granted the marines survived, but they paid a heavy price for it!
And had marines died imperium would have recreated it. Or you think imperium would choose not to?
And that was before primarch came out. Now even if marines die and somehow all collected tithe is destroyea they still can bring ultramarines back...
But hey fine. Ultramarines removed provided gw removes all factions sergeant bob plays fair is fair after all. So if bob wants others lose faction better be willing to be left without own faction.
Plus side nobody would have to play vs bob as he doesn't have legal army anymore.
Overread wrote: Tyranids DID eat their way to the Ultramarine homeworld and tore a huge chunk of them up. Granted the marines survived, but they paid a heavy price for it!
And had marines died imperium would have recreated it. Or you think imperium would choose not to?
And that was before primarch came out. Now even if marines die and somehow all collected tithe is destroyea they still can bring ultramarines back...
But hey fine. Ultramarines removed provided gw removes all factions sergeant bob plays fair is fair after all. So if bob wants others lose faction better be willing to be left without own faction.
Plus side nobody would have to play vs bob as he doesn't have legal army anymore.
Obligatory observation that Marine Chapters being 1000 strong makes them a complete joke/non-entity in 40k given the relative scale of everything else.
"Eldar are a dying race."
"The Ultramarines/Blood Angels/literally everyone would functionally cease to exist in a seriously contested skirmish, never mind a proper war".
I just tend to ignore a lot of the lore these days. For example Primaris origins are daft so I ignore.
All these Primarchs coming back and battling 1vs1 without anyone actually dying is one of my pet hates though and that trend seemed to start in the Horus Heresy novels where they started padding the series out about 1/3rd in to it.
RaptorusRex wrote: B.) Comparing successor chapters to Cadian regiments is hilariously ignorant.
No, it's accurate. It's only because of marine favoritism that a successor chapter is treated as more valid or unique than a successor regiment.
Not really. A successor chapter such as the Mortifactors, Doom Eagles, or Emperor's Spears would seem very alien culture-wise to an Ultramarine from Macragge.
This guy is a son of Guilliman, but he is decidely not an Ultramarine. He comes from a feral planet where the inhabitants regard his kind as the ghosts of abducted children. He refers to his Battle-brothers by their tribal exonyms. He likely has engaged in blood rites of some form or another.
Cadian regiments, on the other hand, are Cadian regiments. Their children might not all be exiled to the isolated islands of the Caducaces sea because of that body of water no longer existing. But they live a highly militarized lifestyle, where one is able to shoot from the time they hold a gun.
I just make up my own head canon for the bits I don’t like.
For example, Vect annoys the heck out of me, not least for having somehow survived so long in Commorragh. So in my head it’s a Dread Pirate Roberts kind of deal.
quite recently. Recently in real time, not in the fluff though. But it happens that Marines bite the dust. As someone who is not familiar with Blood Angels lore that much I get the impression they've been brought to near extinction repeatedly during those tyranid attacks. Fenris also looks pretty bad since Magnus attacked.
In the grand scheme of things Marines aren't doing that great. However, that picture gets a little blurry when they still appear everywhere and in every conflict in the galaxy. Especially the First Founding chapters appear in almost every campaign book, which makes you sometimes wonder: Hey, Ultramarine, don’t you have to defend against Mortarion attacking Ultramar, right now? What are you doing here?
Best thing to do with the lore you don’t like is ignore the bits you don’t like. You can do this in universe easily enough too, set your fluff in a region of the galaxy that isn’t in the know, it’s a big enough place and ignorance is a policy enforced violently. Easy to have your game set current day but have no idea about primarchs or primaris if you don’t like them.
For me it’s the heresy gargbage since they made those novels. Could’ve ruined a lot. But I just don’t read them. Easy.
Abanshee wrote: Does the lore really even matter? With the recent dip in lore quality and the more recent lore additions, I'm honestly left asking what's the point anymore? It's like the deeper I dive into the novels, games, pre-history of 40k, and sourcebooks that my appreciation for the setting drops. I know that this is primarily a setting designed around selling miniatures and at the end of the day, that's GW's top priority. However, that just led me to question as to why so many people are even invested in such an expensive hobby or more so what's the point?
If not the lore, is it just pure aesthetics? Are the models really the only reason anyone is here? Buyer's stockholm syndrome, lol? The so called "wonderful community"? The awful rules? I was never here for any of that.
I've got a good understanding of most of the factions, I've read close to 25 Black Library books, read every one of the FW Imperial Armour, read all of the Horus Heresy Black Books, and have caught myself up on most of the new lore like the Indomitus Crusade. The only thing I like anymore are the Leagues of Votann and Orks. That's simply because they have little to no lore on them and GW hasn't had the chance to feth them up. Everything, I used to enjoy has been changed to a point where I either no longer like it or I actively hate it. Like, I used to sympathize with the Night Lords and actually thought their terroristic actions were completely justified. Now, I think they're a bunch of whiny man-children, who just like being edgy for the sake of being edgy.
Tyranids? Blatant xenomorph rip-offs that lose 24/7. Tau? Slowly turning into the Imperium 2.0. Space Marines? Plot armor thicker than steel and portrayed as whiny teens rather than professional inhuman soldiers. Chaos? Bigger joke than the Empire from Star Wars. Necrons? Please don't remind me of the worst faction/lore update in the game's history. Eldar? Ynnead, really living up to that "god of the dead" title cuz he's just as dead in the lore, also Ynnari.
I dunno it's a mid-life wargaming crisis or what? It just sucks I can't enjoy the lore anymore the way I used to without finding something blatantly wrong about it and writing it off as gak. How did you stop hating the lore, if you ever have? Or is it time to look for greener pastures?
I have disliked the lore for decades.
Playing fascists of various flavors as your army/heroes doesn't work unless the company and it's setting is blatant satire. 40k used to be satire, but since going grim dark in the late 90's, the "awesome" space marines people love to read about are just unironic stand ins for Socialism as heroes ( fascism and communism ). Socialism is trash in real life, and should be in a fantasy setting.
Which is why I only play White Scars or Tyranids. White Scars is as anti-authoritarian as you can get if you decide to play as space marines ( but white scars are still philosophically dead fascists ) which is why I enjoy playing the only race in the game that is just a perceptual animal - Tyranids. No morality issues there. Tyranids are just stupid animals guided by some magical animal consciousness to survive.
I enjoy stories like Judge Dredd, where the takes on Socialism are satire and the "heroes" aren't sold to you as heroic in anyway.
I also enjoy compartmentalized stories of "regular" people trying to survive in the 40k setting, which typically amounts to enjoying stories that only spotlight regular imperial guardsmen and their day to day adventures. Anything above a grunt who doesn't understand the politics he is forced to live under isn't enjoyable to me in the slightest.
Tbh it's much more nationalism (specieism) and authoritarian than socialism (which is far from trash, unless you don't actually understand what it means and think in categories like "LGBT wants to send people to gulags by suggesting paternity leaves" )
And if you have authoritarian govs, it hardly matters if they claim to be left or right, they work the same way - install oppressive tools to protect the ruling class from the increasingly dissatisfied people. That's your wh40k.
Abanshee wrote: Does the lore really even matter? With the recent dip in lore quality and the more recent lore additions, I'm honestly left asking what's the point anymore? It's like the deeper I dive into the novels, games, pre-history of 40k, and sourcebooks that my appreciation for the setting drops. I know that this is primarily a setting designed around selling miniatures and at the end of the day, that's GW's top priority. However, that just led me to question as to why so many people are even invested in such an expensive hobby or more so what's the point?
If not the lore, is it just pure aesthetics? Are the models really the only reason anyone is here? Buyer's stockholm syndrome, lol? The so called "wonderful community"? The awful rules? I was never here for any of that.
I've got a good understanding of most of the factions, I've read close to 25 Black Library books, read every one of the FW Imperial Armour, read all of the Horus Heresy Black Books, and have caught myself up on most of the new lore like the Indomitus Crusade. The only thing I like anymore are the Leagues of Votann and Orks. That's simply because they have little to no lore on them and GW hasn't had the chance to feth them up. Everything, I used to enjoy has been changed to a point where I either no longer like it or I actively hate it. Like, I used to sympathize with the Night Lords and actually thought their terroristic actions were completely justified. Now, I think they're a bunch of whiny man-children, who just like being edgy for the sake of being edgy.
Tyranids? Blatant xenomorph rip-offs that lose 24/7. Tau? Slowly turning into the Imperium 2.0. Space Marines? Plot armor thicker than steel and portrayed as whiny teens rather than professional inhuman soldiers. Chaos? Bigger joke than the Empire from Star Wars. Necrons? Please don't remind me of the worst faction/lore update in the game's history. Eldar? Ynnead, really living up to that "god of the dead" title cuz he's just as dead in the lore, also Ynnari.
I dunno it's a mid-life wargaming crisis or what? It just sucks I can't enjoy the lore anymore the way I used to without finding something blatantly wrong about it and writing it off as gak. How did you stop hating the lore, if you ever have? Or is it time to look for greener pastures?
I have disliked the lore for decades.
Playing fascists of various flavors as your army/heroes doesn't work unless the company and it's setting is blatant satire. 40k used to be satire, but since going grim dark in the late 90's, the "awesome" space marines people love to read about are just unironic stand ins for Socialism as heroes ( fascism and communism ). Socialism is trash in real life, and should be in a fantasy setting.
Which is why I only play White Scars or Tyranids. White Scars is as anti-authoritarian as you can get if you decide to play as space marines ( but white scars are still philosophically dead fascists ) which is why I enjoy playing the only race in the game that is just a perceptual animal - Tyranids. No morality issues there. Tyranids are just stupid animals guided by some magical animal consciousness to survive.
I enjoy stories like Judge Dredd, where the takes on Socialism are satire and the "heroes" aren't sold to you as heroic in anyway.
I also enjoy compartmentalized stories of "regular" people trying to survive in the 40k setting, which typically amounts to enjoying stories that only spotlight regular imperial guardsmen and their day to day adventures. Anything above a grunt who doesn't understand the politics he is forced to live under isn't enjoyable to me in the slightest.
Not sure of your regime classification but I get the point.
I, for one, don't care if it carries any sort of political satire or message. Better it didn't. Way better educated authors, philosophers, theologists, writers are working on it. Plastic toy soldiers and dice rolling in the basement is not the place for it.
I'd rather keep my enjoyment of a blatantly over the top unibers seperate from those other serious matters. I'd go so far as to say, the less politics in it the better.
What's more, in my eyes the satire in itself is absolutely still valid. Yes, it is a fact that the universe has got a more polished cover, at first sight, it could totally look like nothing more than space knights battling any silly cool and creepy alien. But when you delve a bit more into it, obviously, you must acknowledge their is more than catches the eye, at least it has been for a long time until girlyman returned. People more better versed may confirm or not.
The Imperium is still a total nightmare. The fact the tyranical, corrupted, brain-dead Imperium is the only way for mankind to try and weather the storm is just the perfect emphasize of how gakky, nonsensical and hopeless this setting is, because in any other brighter setting. Such horrible regime would probably have been cast down long ago. But 40k is absurd, over the top, and silly in the extreme.
As far as I know, it is still valid that space marines are brainwashed into the fearless warriors they are. If anything, you could say the heroics of space marines are actually if not sometimes faked, at least ironic.
I guess we could carry on longer on this topic, but long story short, if you are willing to look at it this way, the universe has two layers of understanding, one of which still delivers the satire. I don't believe it to be truly political in are days and age though, and mostly there to delight in the absurdness of it all.
This is, of course, a personnal opinion. You may disagree.
A lot of the satire is lost because the world it was a satire of no longer exists. It was very much a satire of 19070/80s Britain, not something relevant to todays audience and certainly not something understood. While socialism may not be everyone’s politics, the people behind early GW were certainly socialists. No secret there.
The building blocks of the satire ares till there, the ironic state of the imperium as state that is destroying its self through its ignorance and self purging is still there. The maintenance of the status quo at all costs is still key to its existence and its biggest threat.
So I agree that there is the polished corporate façade but dig even a little bit and the dystopia is still there.
I dislike the application of real life political themes to the setting because it takes away from the satire and intention, it’s all to easy to say marines are nazis, but it’s kind of missing the point.
And nowadays with extreme groups jumping on existing things it opens the games up to hijacking by these groups for their cause. All because of a misinterpretation by a few people. It’s better to have nuance and ambiguity in the setting and protagonists.
There's a lot of dissonance between books like Sons od Medusa and, say, Uriel Ventris novels. Definitely some authors kind of miss or omit the satire/negativity of the Imperium's background.
Even if most of the books about space marines show them as noble knights protecting the weak citizens, the life of the ordinary human in M41 is still absolutely awful. It shows that the hero can be an noble and courageous as possible, it still doesn't change anything for the average human because the system is oppressive. And nothing can change it.
It may not be directly written in any novel, but it's still there. 40k for me is a (exaggerated) warning where humanity can go wrong, and I believe it conveys that message pretty well. All while allowing some power fantasy about generic super soldiers, immortal robots and technology mixed with magic. And it's still a sales vehicle in the end, so some stuff has to be taken with some (or a lot of) salt.
Most books are still aimed at the wide end of the hobby trumpet, it’s GWs way and always will be.
But I have read a few marine books where there are still flashes of marine dickness. Like rynns world, and hellsreach. There are times where the marines are real arrogant knobs.
Andykp wrote: Most books are still aimed at the wide end of the hobby trumpet, it’s GWs way and always will be.
But I have read a few marine books where there are still flashes of marine dickness. Like rynns world, and hellsreach. There are times where the marines are real arrogant knobs.
We could say in essence that the "satire" is still there obviously, but it is not advertised, couldn't we? Sums it up fairly I think.
Andykp wrote: Most books are still aimed at the wide end of the hobby trumpet, it’s GWs way and always will be.
But I have read a few marine books where there are still flashes of marine dickness. Like rynns world, and hellsreach. There are times where the marines are real arrogant knobs.
We could say in essence that the "satire" is still there obviously, but it is not advertised, couldn't we? Sums it up fairly I think.
Deadnight wrote:Like the best things, its not in your face. It's there, waiting and ready to be discovered with a little digging.
I agree with both posts above. The more blatant power fantasy is "in your face", but there are a lot of hidden gems that really do it for me.
But if learned not to mind inconsistencies. As an engineer I couldn't watch most action movies with sci-fi elements if I cared to much ^^
True that, inconsistencies are all over the place, exacerbated in the case of 40k because it is not the project of one, rather the piling of over 2 decades of lore added by innumerable different authors through several channels (codices, video games, books...).
But hey, and that links us back to the topic at hand, you just need to admit it and pretend to be fooled! Or re-imagine whatever bothers you.
When people say "old fluff wss better as it showed how bad the Imperium was", which exact books are people thinking of?
I'd really like to have some examples. Not because I doubt the claim but because I'd like to read these books Usually I find 40K fluff just not that deep. It's more about action, less about thinking.
Andykp wrote: Most books are still aimed at the wide end of the hobby trumpet, it’s GWs way and always will be.
But I have read a few marine books where there are still flashes of marine dickness. Like rynns world, and hellsreach. There are times where the marines are real arrogant knobs.
We could say in essence that the "satire" is still there obviously, but it is not advertised, couldn't we? Sums it up fairly I think.
Deadnight wrote:Like the best things, its not in your face. It's there, waiting and ready to be discovered with a little digging.
I agree with both posts above. The more blatant power fantasy is "in your face", but there are a lot of hidden gems that really do it for me.
But if learned not to mind inconsistencies. As an engineer I couldn't watch most action movies with sci-fi elements if I cared to much ^^
I have semi 'given up' on the lore. Not that I've given up on reading up on it and liking parts that concern my armies (Orks and Chaos), but as far as hoping things will change or accepting certain things I don't like in the story? Yeah, pretty much.
Now, I'm biased because I play Xenos and heretics, but there's some things in the fluff that bug me. Mostly with the Imperium, in fact the only Imperium factions I like are the Astra Militarium and the Adeptus Soroitas. The narrative is all over the place, and the whole idea of Custodes to me being super duper duper not space marines doesn't fit well with me.
That, and my factions normally get the short end of the stick as far as fluff.
.Orks? They're going after Angron and other than that are doing nothing.
.Necrons? What are they even doing atm?
.CSM? They're on a treasure hunt with Abby and Vashtorr..riveting story.
I get GW wants to not make the story go too far ahead so everyone can have a codex and lore, but sometimes they either try to keep the status quo or they push their narrative and you get Primaris.
I found the Eisenhorn novels (when read by Toby of course) to be the first time in ages I've actually found the 40k setting interesting. Yes 40k is all schlocky, mostly nonsensical has power levels depending on whatever the author/marketing department wants it to be... but compared to anything else I've read I found Eisenhorn just used the setting to great effect by using the setting to explore a myriad of interesting-yet-generic sci fi stuff without getting too slavish towards the "actual fluff"
Other than that I occasionally talk to someone who is into 40k and they start harping on about Space Marine characters and what will happen with X Y Z and my brain just wants to bail out and run away. Call me jaded but it's all just whatever serves that particular author/business decision.
Jaredthefox92 wrote: I have semi 'given up' on the lore. Not that I've given up on reading up on it and liking parts that concern my armies (Orks and Chaos), but as far as hoping things will change or accepting certain things I don't like in the story? Yeah, pretty much.
Now, I'm biased because I play Xenos and heretics, but there's some things in the fluff that bug me. Mostly with the Imperium, in fact the only Imperium factions I like are the Astra Militarium and the Adeptus Soroitas. The narrative is all over the place, and the whole idea of Custodes to me being super duper duper not space marines doesn't fit well with me.
That, and my factions normally get the short end of the stick as far as fluff.
.Orks? They're going after Angron and other than that are doing nothing.
.Necrons? What are they even doing atm?
.CSM? They're on a treasure hunt with Abby and Vashtorr..riveting story.
I get GW wants to not make the story go too far ahead so everyone can have a codex and lore, but sometimes they either try to keep the status quo or they push their narrative and you get Primaris.
Agreed. We need more Xenos on Xenos or Xenos on chaos action. Don't get me wrong I play two imperial armies, but still, stories without the Imperium are a real charm. And, on a sidenote, that'd let 2 none imperial factions get models for once, maybe... But I doubt that'll happen anytile soon.
Still a huge shame, as I said I loved hearing the narration of Valedor, I mean, a story with Eldars teaming up against nids. It is pretty straightforward but so pleasing!
I mean, part of the lore as a sandbox, which is my take on it, is to provide you inspiration to get your own stories rolling, and hopefully for GW grab a few plastic toys along the way. Any story can give you great ideas or starting points!
What do we want? Xenos fluff!
When do we want it? Now!!
But xenos and non imperials get models all the time. Necron got a new model line, tyranids, eldar get new models every edition, Votan came out and new primaris orks got models too, as well as GSC. If more xeno armies were to get models, then all the IG, Ad Mecha and SoB would have to lose their release windows.
Karol wrote: But xenos and non imperials get models all the time. Necron got a new model line, tyranids, eldar get new models every edition, Votan came out and new primaris orks got models too, as well as GSC. If more xeno armies were to get models, then all the IG, Ad Mecha and SoB would have to lose their release windows.
No, they should get more windows allocated from codex primaris leutnant, that is the difference.
Karol in that hot and spicy alternate reality as usual where there's gak like Primaris Orks.
I gotta get me some of what he smokes at some point, he was gonna hook me up but we had a whole miscommunication, and the stuff got left in the white house of all places...
Honestly because BL had a mandate to make lore about Imperials for a long time there's a woeful lack of Xenos focused lore. Tyranids its somewhat understandable as they don't have a "voice", but every other Xenos force has very few books.
Karol wrote: But xenos and non imperials get models all the time. Necron got a new model line, tyranids, eldar get new models every edition, Votan came out and new primaris orks got models too, as well as GSC. If more xeno armies were to get models, then all the IG, Ad Mecha and SoB would have to lose their release windows.
No, they should get more windows allocated from codex primaris leutnant, that is the difference.
Xeno races generaly get more models then marines. How many IF, IH or CF dedicated marines do we get per edition? In 8th and 9th, it was considered lucky to get 2 characters. On top of that xeno and non imperial races are finished in one or two waves, making it possible for someone to have an army ready under 4-5 years. While with marines, the players are waiting for bikers and jump pack characters for the 3ed edition now. Same with corresponding units for those to join too. And those are general units, not faction specific marine units. Also I am not sure how would you want to get more windows. An edition has a pre set lenght and the number of releases is known more or less in advance.
Karol in that hot and spicy alternate reality as usual where there's gak like Primaris Orks.
how are the big orks called. If I call them big, no one will know which I am talking about. But primaris orks everyone knows which ones I am talking about. Got a new character, new unit, two versions of a mega hog, new trike leader, buggies and a new box of boys followed by commandos and character for them. Meanwhile A RG or WS player got maybe a character for his army? My dudes got 1 character model in 2 edition, got no new model in 8th. Meanwhile something like eldar got banshees, their big character, the pirates and characters with off shot games. CF didn't even get a character, they litteraly got nothing just a bad set of rules.
Xeno races generaly get more models then marines. How many IF, IH or CF dedicated marines do we get per edition?
So Eldar getting plastic updates to 30 year old models means that somehow IF/IH/CF doesnt count as having gotten those kits? :
Termis
Primaris Lt #200
Termi librarian (that you can also use in your GK)
Biologis
Termi captain
Sternguard
Ballistus
Infernus
Desolation
Brutalis
Gravis captain
Primaris ancient
Primaris company champ
Heavy intercessors
10 names characters
Primaris Chaplain
Assault intercessors
Bladeguard vets
Erads
Techmarine
ATV
Firestrike
Bunker
Gladiator (x3)
Storm speeder (x3)
Bladeguard LT/Captain/Ancient
Judiciar
Chaplain
Outriders
vs Eldars getting :
Autarch on foot (update of an existing kit)
Rangers (update of an existing kit)
Shroud runners (actually new)
guardians x2(update)
Maugan ra (update)
dark reapers (update)
warlocks( updates)
Shining spears(update)
avatar (update)
corsairs (new)
(oh and lets disregard that BT getting unique stuff is a thing too)
You really gotta stop with your stupid anti-eldar mind. You keep acting selfish and crying about your GK not getting new models but then turn around and basically spit on people that play other armies than you that also want model releases.
Is eldar OP right now? Yes. Doesn't change the fact that they havnt got a meaningful model expansion since rogue trader
Meanwhile A RG or WS player got maybe a character for his army? My dudes got 1 character model in 2 edition, got no new model in 8th. Meanwhile something like eldar got banshees, their big character, the pirates and characters with off shot games. CF didn't even get a character, they litteraly got nothing just a bad set of rules.
FFS
RG and WS are SPACE MARINES
Litterally every single SM release is playable in those armies.
Whens the last time Iyanden/Mephrit/Rusted Cog/Viorla/Black Heart/Leviathan/etc got a subfaction specific model?
And yeah, it sucks that GK aren't more supported models by GW and they totally should get more than one names character every two edition.
Banshees were released in 8th ed, and was simply a model update from gakky finecast ones. Their big character, you mean the Avatar? The midget that was smaller than a space marine before? Yeah, another model update. "Pirates" (Corsairs) were new, but clearly just an add-on from Killteam.
CF ARENT AN ARMY, theyre a <removed - please do not circumvent the language filter like that again> SUBFACTION.
Oh and you know what, i've seen plenty of people get the Leviathan marines and make modernised GK out of them, the Termis are pretty easy to convert, so are the characters (and you could even do the ballistus -> dreadnought conversion too)
By Karols metric there were zero models for Orks in 8th, there were only 8 kits for Evil Sunz. In 9th there were about 8 for Snakebites and 3 for Orks.
Andykp wrote: What do models releases have to do with the lore?
I guess GW will usually try to put them in some context, like in the whole imperial armour series and it's stories (well, Taros was not the best if you ask me, sad the imperials were too idle and the desert/guerrilla aspect of tallarns wasn't properly staged but i digress). So new fig are likely to call for more lore. I don't say they necessarily do. I say there may be a good chance that both go together.
I'd also imagine the other way round is possible, something appearing in the lore and thus getting models, but aside from characters, no exemple comes to mind so this is just a hypothesis.
Andykp wrote: What do models releases have to do with the lore?
I guess GW will usually try to put them in some context, like in the whole imperial armour series and it's stories (well, Taros was not the best if you ask me, sad the imperials were too idle and the desert/guerrilla aspect of tallarns wasn't properly staged but i digress). So new fig are likely to call for more lore. I don't say they necessarily do. I say there may be a good chance that both go together.
I'd also imagine the other way round is possible, something appearing in the lore and thus getting models, but aside from characters, no exemple comes to mind so this is just a hypothesis.
Oh I get that, I meant that the discussion was about the lore and how to deal with what you don’t like and became moaning that marines got too many releases.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: By Karols metric there were zero models for Orks in 8th, there were only 8 kits for Evil Sunz. In 9th there were about 8 for Snakebites and 3 for Orks.
Did snake bites have separate books for them edition after edition the way DA, SW or BA had? They didn't. This makes them a subfaction in an ork codex. Marines may, through GW greed, have to buy 2 books to run one army, but those chapters were and still are separate factions. Again, even if you exclude marines from this comperation. Orks, necron, DE, eldar, Votan etc got tens of models. Meanwhile something like my dudes got 1 special character in 2 editions. BA got a special character and an Lt. SW got a special character, IF and RG got a special character. Only DA got multiple characters and BT are the only marine faction that got a partial faction model reset. But even if those were to be counted it is still fewer models, then those release for xeno and non imperial factions.
Banshees were released in 8th ed, and was simply a model update from gakky finecast ones. Their big character, you mean the Avatar? The midget that was smaller than a space marine before? Yeah, another model update. "Pirates" (Corsairs) were new, but clearly just an add-on from Killteam.
The last model update for my dudes was in 5th ed. Since then eldar got. Multiple characters, new tanks, Wright Knights, new walkers, jetbikers, special characters, new aspect warrior models, the avatar, terrain, pirates etc Every edition they get new models. And those often come with updated powerful rules. Marines have to wait for the end of an edition and their 2.0 books to have fun playing their army, and even then it is often a thing for only a small part of the marine factions. CF got nothing CF in 8th and 9th. I don't think they were given anything in prior editions to that either. And with the game being shaped in the way that the same units are best played as one faction, who cares if there is unit X release and technicaly your faction could use it, when it is not an optimal way to play. Then that unit may as well not exist. And unlike armies like eldar marines can't just slam 400pts of ineffcient units, because they neither get powerful enough rules or low enough points costs to do that. On top of that even for armies like ultramarines or their clones , and assuming they want to use primaris, the unit options exists, but are so bad that no one wants to run them.
Take the leviathan box. The dread is bad, the flamer dudes are attrocious, the termintors are okey as are the sternguard, but it is better to take desolators, the librarian and terminator captin have no units to be run in the meta right now and the cpt has a horrible weapon load out, the phobos Lt costs like an assasin, but is a worse version of him or her.
This leaves box with the gravis apothecary, which is okeyish considering gravis are okeyish. The prior starter set was very similar. Full of models that never got used. Who used sentry guns, bunkers or the blade guard ancient in 9th ed?
Sgt. Cortez wrote: By Karols metric there were zero models for Orks in 8th, there were only 8 kits for Evil Sunz. In 9th there were about 8 for Snakebites and 3 for Orks.
Did snake bites have separate books for them edition after edition the way DA, SW or BA had? They didn't. This makes them a subfaction in an ork codex. Marines may, through GW greed, have to buy 2 books to run one army, but those chapters were and still are separate factions. Again, even if you exclude marines from this comperation. Orks, necron, DE, eldar, Votan etc got tens of models. Meanwhile something like my dudes got 1 special character in 2 editions. BA got a special character and an Lt. SW got a special character, IF and RG got a special character. Only DA got multiple characters and BT are the only marine faction that got a partial faction model reset. But even if those were to be counted it is still fewer models, then those release for xeno and non imperial factions.
Banshees were released in 8th ed, and was simply a model update from gakky finecast ones. Their big character, you mean the Avatar? The midget that was smaller than a space marine before? Yeah, another model update. "Pirates" (Corsairs) were new, but clearly just an add-on from Killteam.
The last model update for my dudes was in 5th ed. Since then eldar got. Multiple characters, new tanks, Wright Knights, new walkers, jetbikers, special characters, new aspect warrior models, the avatar, terrain, pirates etc Every edition they get new models. And those often come with updated powerful rules. Marines have to wait for the end of an edition and their 2.0 books to have fun playing their army, and even then it is often a thing for only a small part of the marine factions. CF got nothing CF in 8th and 9th. I don't think they were given anything in prior editions to that either. And with the game being shaped in the way that the same units are best played as one faction, who cares if there is unit X release and technicaly your faction could use it, when it is not an optimal way to play. Then that unit may as well not exist. And unlike armies like eldar marines can't just slam 400pts of ineffcient units, because they neither get powerful enough rules or low enough points costs to do that. On top of that even for armies like ultramarines or their clones , and assuming they want to use primaris, the unit options exists, but are so bad that no one wants to run them.
Take the leviathan box. The dread is bad, the flamer dudes are attrocious, the termintors are okey as are the sternguard, but it is better to take desolators, the librarian and terminator captin have no units to be run in the meta right now and the cpt has a horrible weapon load out, the phobos Lt costs like an assasin, but is a worse version of him or her.
This leaves box with the gravis apothecary, which is okeyish considering gravis are okeyish. The prior starter set was very similar. Full of models that never got used. Who used sentry guns, bunkers or the blade guard ancient in 9th ed?
In your first post you mentioned WS, CF and Ravenguard, which are pretty much comparable to other factions' subfactions.
DA, SW and Blood Angels are a little different, though since 7th already nearly every SM release was usable by them as well.
Grey Knights are their own thing and always were, historically they have stronger ties to Sisters and Agents of the Imperium than to other Space Marines concerning Codizes. When people talk SM they practically don’t mean Grey Knights.
So yes, Grey Knights don’t profit from the Space Marine favouritism GW has. Same way Death Guard didn't get anything out of the CSM releases in 9th. I don’t know why you hate eldar so much and defend SM, when your faction is in a similar position modelwize like Dark Eldar and GW didn't even throw you a bone with a GK Upgrade kit for any of the endless Primaris.
Also, it doesn't work when you treat SM as at least 6 factions(SM, SW, DA,BA, BT, GK) but throw factions that share no units at all (Orks, Necrons, Eldar,Tyranids) together as one "xeno faction".
For what it's worth Karol, there is a part of me that's hopeful for new GK Termies this ed... I just think if GW wants to push Termies, they need to lean in and do it right.
I'm also hoping for an Agents dex with model support. I don't know how you feel about the fluff of GK as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, but I tend to see Inquisition models as releases for the armies of their Chambers Militant.
Brickfix wrote: Even if most of the books about space marines show them as noble knights protecting the weak citizens, the life of the ordinary human in M41 is still absolutely awful. It shows that the hero can be an noble and courageous as possible, it still doesn't change anything for the average human because the system is oppressive. And nothing can change it.
It may not be directly written in any novel, but it's still there. 40k for me is a (exaggerated) warning where humanity can go wrong, and I believe it conveys that message pretty well. All while allowing some power fantasy about generic super soldiers, immortal robots and technology mixed with magic. And it's still a sales vehicle in the end, so some stuff has to be taken with some (or a lot of) salt.
Well, see for me it's both. It's a fictional setting with some slight satirical undertones that have been gradually scraped away over time. I can't say that I don't enjoy, like, or even admire some of the characters in the Imperium (The Emperor of Man is probably my favorite character in the setting due to how morally complex he is and just alien the authors portray him (I don't like it when they make him stupid though and insinuate he wanted the Heresy to happen or something). I don't think every planet within the Imperium is bad for a citizen to live on, but like 75-90% of the planets are either: absolute gak, barely skirting by on scraps, or are roleplaying there favorite dystopian regime. With all that said, I don't think they're the good
guys, they're clearly not.
However, the authors tendency to depict not just Space Marines, but all of the Imperial Military as "just, righteous, assailed on all sides, and even morally correct in their actions" is a little too much for me too comfortably call it a genuine satire.
Too me it's a business. Just like every other franchise, whatever sub-text or message they were trying to push was lost amongst the development of GW into the more corporate entity that it is nowadays. You start to see the tonal shift around the 3rd edition of 40k with darker art, stories, more grimderp/less grimdark, and an overall more "realistic" aesthetic to the setting as as whole. It allowed a lot of people to take the somewhat absurd elements of the setting, more seriously and interpret them from a more creativity-based lense and less of a dour, political thrashing POV.
No, but he massively outscales the other standard Grey Knight units. Nobody wants squats in their space marine army. In fact, scale is such a massive issue that the most recent factions (3rd edition and onward) are the only ones who're scaled in a correct manner and the majority of factions are incorrectly proportioned to how they're supposed to be lorewise.
Look at the standard Rhino and tell me with a straight face 12 of the new MK6 marines could fit inside of it. The Deimos-pattern Rhino is a little better because battle-brothers can hang off it's sides, but still it's very small.
Give Karol a break. He has every right to be salty given Grey Knights position as the Drukhari of the Imperium when it comes to rules and models. That is to say, no Imperial Faction has seen less models (ooh, model update of a useless special character) nor more of a reduction in units and wargear options (5 nemesis force weapons now share 1 profile) on the remaining units since Grey Knights in their glory days.
alextroy wrote: Give Karol a break. He has every right to be salty given Grey Knights position as the Drukhari of the Imperium when it comes to rules and models. That is to say, no Imperial Faction has seen less models (ooh, model update of a useless special character) nor more of a reduction in units and wargear options (5 nemesis force weapons now share 1 profile) on the remaining units since Grey Knights in their glory days.
no, i won't give him a break, his discourse is egoistical and uninformed (and oh so repeated in every thread, no matter the topic).
alextroy wrote: Give Karol a break. He has every right to be salty given Grey Knights position as the Drukhari of the Imperium when it comes to rules and models. That is to say, no Imperial Faction has seen less models (ooh, model update of a useless special character) nor more of a reduction in units and wargear options (5 nemesis force weapons now share 1 profile) on the remaining units since Grey Knights in their glory days.
no, i won't give him a break, his discourse is egoistical and uninformed (and oh so repeated in every thread, no matter the topic).
Yeah, Karol has made their huge biases known and NOBODY should give them any quarter.
They were sold a gakky army in 8th by someone in their hellscape of a meta(taking full advantage) and play against (anecdotally) full on donkey-cave players. They chose to double down on that mindset and began projecting it onto EVERY.SINGLE.THREAD, even after being informed that not everywhere is his level of Dante's Inferno.
@OP, as far as the righteous Impérium is concerned, keep in minds that the lore is told via an in universe character voice of sorts.
This implies that at first glance, the universe is no more satirical or absurd. Only over the top
But, it also implies, one you understand the GW trick "everything is canon, everything is not canon, this is all in universe chronicles", that you can read the Imperium as the absurd pile of lie and horror it is.
Your right in your statement though, I'm just pointing how your statement perfectly meets what we've determined earlier in the thread before it became a fistfight with Karol.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: When people say "old fluff wss better as it showed how bad the Imperium was", which exact books are people thinking of?
I'd really like to have some examples. Not because I doubt the claim but because I'd like to read these books Usually I find 40K fluff just not that deep. It's more about action, less about thinking.
I'm on my phone so I can't give precise details, but here are some books and concepts you might be interested in
Firstly the Eisenhorn and Ravenor books are good. The heroes aren't heroic, and you get a ground level view of the Imperium. And they are definitely more 'thinky' than other books. Similarly some of the early books in the Horus Heresy show how the Imperium is not the good guys. I'm particularly thinking of tr Imperium's interactions with smaller human factions, like the Interex or the Diaspora (sp?). You may have to Google to find the books- wikis are your friend. Similarly there is a mechanicum series which involves characters from the age of technology. Priests of Mars trilogy. Haven't read it, but I know those characters are not fond of modern humanity. At all.
The Warhammer horror series is also fairly low level, so may be good. But I haven't read them either.
That doesn't look well with the rest of the miniature range. This is a problem with every power-armored army (save MAYBE Sisters and Primaris). Everything's out of scale with one another and makes your army look really goofy on the tabletop. The
transport capacity on vehicles has also been raised, so now a tiny little metal box will spit out a horde of power armor and you're left wondering how the laws of physics haven't been broken yet. Trust me GW knows this, they just don't wanna shell out
the dosh for new molds and also want to profit off of their existing range already. Otherwise, why would they make MK6 and Terminators bigger in the last 2-4 years?
It's sad when your only decent model ranges are a handful of Imperial factions (Knights, AdMech, and Guard), Daemons (really pushing it though with the ancient 4th edition sculpts), Dark Eldar (suffers from the same problems that the Daemons do), Necrons, and Tyranids/Genestealer Cults. I'd buy a gak ton of armies and models, if GW would get there scale situation under control.
The transport capacity on vehicles has also been raised, so now a tiny little metal box will spit out a horde of power armor and you're left wondering how the laws of physics haven't been broken yet.
Just to be clear, this was absolutely still the case prior to the recent capacity increase. Fitting 11 models inside a rhino is only mildly more silly than fitting 10 inside, and no one was ever pretending you could fit 10 guardians inside a wave serpent. The tanks have been understood to be on a slightly smaller scale than the infantry for a long time.
Heck on the boards most of the "buildings" we move around are woefully tiny. Meanwhile in the space of 3 or 4 buildings (that are tiny garden sheds) we have super-long range artillery trading shots and close combat units charging each other.
40K was never "truescale" and has never tried to be. Indeed a lot of games are the same. Actual true-scale is often on the rarer side
I so much wish they'd release the good old Regiments in plastic: Valhalla, mordia, tallarn... And Steel legion!
Though can we all agree the most hyped release of all times were the sisters of battle after years and years of false release rumors every December or so? When they came out I loved it. Still didn't get around to actually buy some though but that's on schedule
I can't agree more. I went from an all metal Sisters Army to a larger all plastic, except Celestine, army since they were released. A result worth waiting for.
I just don't think about it. A couple people I know have tried to tell me about the lore and every time my eyes just glaze over.
I think orks and gobbos are dorky and cute and fun to paint, so I like their models. But the lore is/was clearly written by a bunch of geeky guys all writing for the rule of cool in a tone to best appeal to high school boys.
There's no depth, intrigue, or long term thought going into any of it. It's just a bunch of dudes sitting around going "and then my favorite did something even cooler!" one after another. And so it shows.
So instead I paint up my minis and imagine the world that they inhabit and do my very best to ignore the lore.
I've tried to play for about 6-8 years now, but between my depression, work, and generally lacking with people to play I have just held off and held off. I'm probably gonna finally make the jump into 10th with Black Templars. They have the best excuse for Primaris by and large, so that's why I chose them (Crusade-based force is gonna need a lot of recruits constantly pouring in). However, alternatively I can say they are a crusade that got cut off by the Great Rift and haven't received any Primaris recruits/reinforcements.
I think I'll try to build a small platoon or Demi-Company of them. Not sure yet, but I know that I wanna keep armor to a minimum (Vehicles look like there gonna be a pain to paint and make look well).
After that, I might look into some Heresy-era Fists or something to go with them. (I like the idea of Heresy-era forces existing in the modern setting. Like, Nassir Amit being the first Flesh Tearer or Zephon being the first Charnel Guard.)
I've tried to play for about 6-8 years now, but between my depression, work, and generally lacking with people to play I have just held off and held off. I'm probably gonna finally make the jump into 10th with Black Templars. They have the best excuse for Primaris by and large, so that's why I chose them (Crusade-based force is gonna need a lot of recruits constantly pouring in). However, alternatively I can say they are a crusade that got cut off by the Great Rift and haven't received any Primaris recruits/reinforcements.
I think I'll try to build a small platoon or Demi-Company of them. Not sure yet, but I know that I wanna keep armor to a minimum (Vehicles look like there gonna be a pain to paint and make look well).
After that, I might look into some Heresy-era Fists or something to go with them. (I like the idea of Heresy-era forces existing in the modern setting. Like, Nassir Amit being the first Flesh Tearer or Zephon being the first Charnel Guard.)
Oh, I was talking to makeitorky because I looked at his gallery images
But I was intend on asking you as well so glad you answered in advance! Finding players is really the hard part of the job. I don't know where you live but in french villages it's kinda hard, luckily my buddies are still hanging around there. There's a reason why my part of the country is part of what is known as "the empty diagonal".
I play onepagerules GFF and AoFS at home and with a couple of friends. I've wanted to get into more group gaming but the price of rules and really the general culture at game stores and groups I've had to deal with as a woman has really turned me away. This isn't just 40k/AOS, it's turned me away from even DnD meetups.
I've tried to play for about 6-8 years now, but between my depression, work, and generally lacking with people to play I have just held off and held off. I'm probably gonna finally make the jump into 10th with Black Templars. They have the best excuse for Primaris by and large, so that's why I chose them (Crusade-based force is gonna need a lot of recruits constantly pouring in). However, alternatively I can say they are a crusade that got cut off by the Great Rift and haven't received any Primaris recruits/reinforcements.
I think I'll try to build a small platoon or Demi-Company of them. Not sure yet, but I know that I wanna keep armor to a minimum (Vehicles look like there gonna be a pain to paint and make look well).
After that, I might look into some Heresy-era Fists or something to go with them. (I like the idea of Heresy-era forces existing in the modern setting. Like, Nassir Amit being the first Flesh Tearer or Zephon being the first Charnel Guard.)
I've tried to play for about 6-8 years now, but between my depression, work, and generally lacking with people to play I have just held off and held off. I'm probably gonna finally make the jump into 10th with Black Templars. They have the best excuse for Primaris by and large, so that's why I chose them (Crusade-based force is gonna need a lot of recruits constantly pouring in). However, alternatively I can say they are a crusade that got cut off by the Great Rift and haven't received any Primaris recruits/reinforcements.
I think I'll try to build a small platoon or Demi-Company of them. Not sure yet, but I know that I wanna keep armor to a minimum (Vehicles look like there gonna be a pain to paint and make look well).
After that, I might look into some Heresy-era Fists or something to go with them. (I like the idea of Heresy-era forces existing in the modern setting. Like, Nassir Amit being the first Flesh Tearer or Zephon being the first Charnel Guard.)
Why play Space Marines though?
Because they're models are cooler than everyone else's. Also, I love the Black Templars aesthetic, characters (Grimaldus especially), chapter culture, and battlefield tactics. Plus, it also helps the Emperor is my favorite character.
It was either them, Blood Angels, or White Scars, tbh.
Because they're models are cooler than everyone else's. Also, I love the Black Templars aesthetic, characters (Grimaldus especially), chapter culture, and battlefield tactics. Plus, it also helps the Emperor is my favorite character.
It was either them, Blood Angels, or White Scars, tbh.
Ah, fair enough. If you vibe with Astartes, that's cool and I hope you have fun. The Sororitas aesthetic is fairly close to that too and they have a sane number of units.
Overread wrote: Heck on the boards most of the "buildings" we move around are woefully tiny. Meanwhile in the space of 3 or 4 buildings (that are tiny garden sheds) we have super-long range artillery trading shots and close combat units charging each other.
40K was never "truescale" and has never tried to be. Indeed a lot of games are the same. Actual true-scale is often on the rarer side
Completely agree. Truescale in gaming breaks down rapidly after a setting includes gunpowder and combustion engines, but 40k and epic for that matter have never much been bothered by it. 28mm gaming struggles with it on general. I have plenty of things I criticize 40k over but I’ll give them a pass there. Like, I do wish they’d pick a scale…
I play onepagerules GFF and AoFS at home and with a couple of friends. I've wanted to get into more group gaming but the price of rules and really the general culture at game stores and groups I've had to deal with as a woman has really turned me away. This isn't just 40k/AOS, it's turned me away from even DnD meetups.
The minis are really great though.
I don't know about those onepagerules. Have you got a link for that?
What's more, I'm not a woman myself but I pretty much understand what you mean, that kind of environment is what we call "une garçonnière", which would more or less translate "boy's den". With all the good and bad things it implies!
I'm an associal bastard so I don't even try to play in store because I can't seem to get out to play and prefer staying with my usual group of nerds.
I play onepagerules GFF and AoFS at home and with a couple of friends. I've wanted to get into more group gaming but the price of rules and really the general culture at game stores and groups I've had to deal with as a woman has really turned me away. This isn't just 40k/AOS, it's turned me away from even DnD meetups.
The minis are really great though.
I don't know about those onepagerules. Have you got a link for that?
What's more, I'm not a woman myself but I pretty much understand what you mean, that kind of environment is what we call "une garçonnière", which would more or less translate "boy's den". With all the good and bad things it implies!
I'm an associal bastard so I don't even try to play in store because I can't seem to get out to play and prefer staying with my usual group of nerds.
Sure do! https://www.onepagerules.com/ I hope you enjoy them if you give them a shot, and feel free to let me know what you think.
Yep! The english version here is "boy's club" and it really holds true with the good and bad things. I've been moving around a lot for work most my life so don't have a friend network to play with where I live, but I am working on that.
I play onepagerules GFF and AoFS at home and with a couple of friends. I've wanted to get into more group gaming but the price of rules and really the general culture at game stores and groups I've had to deal with as a woman has really turned me away. This isn't just 40k/AOS, it's turned me away from even DnD meetups.
The minis are really great though.
I don't know about those onepagerules. Have you got a link for that?
What's more, I'm not a woman myself but I pretty much understand what you mean, that kind of environment is what we call "une garçonnière", which would more or less translate "boy's den". With all the good and bad things it implies!
I'm an associal bastard so I don't even try to play in store because I can't seem to get out to play and prefer staying with my usual group of nerds.
no
Ah, yeah I should totally let donkey-caves walk all over me. Great advice!
Right, and I've met some absolutely trash-tier BT players, but I try not to take that out on random people I don't know.
If people were nicer that wouldn't be a problem, but they aren't. Most people are actually fairly awful once you truly consider them, top to bottom. I've tried being nice to them, but I don't know what it is about my area, but everyone and their dog plays
Guard, Chaos, and Marines. There aren't that many marine players around here and the chaos guys are there own little group like the guard guys. They are actually nice though. Even rando guard players are dicks or generally just cold people to be around. Removed.
Late to the discussion, but I keep from hating the lore by approaching it the way I've always approached all wargaming.
"Take what you want and leave the rest."
Most 40k fluff I generally like but I'm not a fan of the Primaris lore, so I don't think about it . Same with Leagues of Votaan. If a novel or particular batch of fluff is poorly written or seems incongruent with the RT-4thEd vibe that I prefer, I ignore it completely.
And it's the same with models and even rules. I abandoned 40k rules at least 5 editions ago and nearly all GW I buy is used, but my armies still see the table regularly via Grimdark Future. I've scooped up last edition codices cheaply to provide plenty of fluff and inspiration for our games.
Rules, fluff, and miniatures should serve the game experience you want, regardless of what any company says/sells/produces/writes.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Not online, you're from switzerland? Do you speak french? I know this has NOTHING to do with the topic though
Speaking?
I mean i can ask where the gare is , ask for a restaurant and hotel, be somewhat polite but let's just say my marks were..... Very bad and a long time ago.
My interest in the lore started and ended with 1st edition. I liked reading Cloud Runner's Last Stand in the 1990 Deathwing set for Space Hulk. I haven't payed attention to any lore subsequent to that. I just like playing 40K. People keep trying to get me to use special characters/Epic Heroes in my armies, and I keep saying no. I get that Abaddon is some really important Chaos chap of some sort, I have no idea why he would be in my little warband.
