I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they don't have access to Warhammer Wiki to read about all the lore in the universe, meaning they might encounter threats they do not understand. I also won't be talking Orks or Drukhari because these factions are intentionally dumb and it's justified that they make stupid decisions.

Still, a lot of people supposedly with hundreds of years of training and experience are acting like they just graduate from a military academy and are eager to prove themselves through recklessly endangering themselves and others.

The Aeldari is the primest example. Despite being portrayed as a tiny race, they still do stupid gak such as needlessly throwing their soldiers into pitched battle instead of luring the enemy into ambushes. Gav Thorpe can't write Aeldari at all - he makes them all into Space Marines but strips away all the comical heroism, cool battle cries, and power armor. They are also incapable of achieving anything except through other races. There was a plot where Eldrad killed Abaddon, retconned. Iyanden used to send troops to Ichar 4 to fight the Tyranids, retconned. Yvraine adds a bit to the faction but is currently being ignored. All in all, GW just goes too hard with bashing the Aeldari that it is getting really annoying. If you have to put them in a bad situation, just have them outnumbered 100 to 1 where they can't win no matter how smart they are.

The Adeptus Mechanicus is another. Very inconsistent between being hungry for acquiring alien tech no matter the cost and wanting to destroy anything that didn't have a recognized Machine Spirit. If GW were to be consistent, the Adeptus Mechanicus should be rolling out models based on Tau battlesuits by now. At least some radical faction will learn to reverse-engineer Tau technologies which are quite simplistic (not related to the Warp) compared to other races. In one incident in the Codex, it is even explicitly said that the Adeptus Mechanicus overrun a Tau world and steal many cargoes of their technologies. Another common trope for the Adeptus Mechanicus is triggering a doom they should have seen coming from a mile away, such as teleporting a nuke to another planet, trying to ransack a Necron tomb without proper preparation and firepower, or breeding Tyranids in labs.

With Necrons and Chaos Space Marines, I do like how it is explained why they are sometimes too stupid. The Necrons are bogged down by dynastic struggles (which also plagued their empire before the War in Haven), so a lot of the time, either political bickering or promotion based on loyalty rather than merit leads to military disaster. And Chaos is Chaos.

Why are people in this universe so dumb?

because it drives the story, and the writers dont know better.

I'll expand the latter part first, since i don't mean it as a insult. the reason why multi century veterans act "like they just graduate from a military academy and are eager to prove themselves through recklessly endangering themselves and others" is because the Black library writers, by and large, are NOT highly skilled combat veterans. They are civillians who are professional writers, who are good at writing books, not squad tactics.


The tech level disparity doesn't help. We dont have 8 foot tall superhumans running around in bulletproof power armour and shooting 20mm fully automatic grenade launchers in the real world, and we have no idea what sort of "realistic" tactics that sort of techology would promote, any more than a medieval knight could postulate on the best use of attack helicopters. 40K combat doesnt work like real world combat, and trying to write it like it does can often highlight the absurdity of the setting in a negative manner.



Intended audience is another factor. While theirs a lot of adult fans of 40k, GW is still courting and aiming a lot of its efforts at the teenager market, which both encourages "badass" behaviour over shrewd tactical analysis, and requires that a lot of lore be pitched at a level young adults enjoy most.


Additionally, theirs the narrative need. the writers need the story to be compelling, which often mandates that the protagonists struggle because that highlights their heroism when they succeed. their fore, they often need to be placed in positions of disadvantage, which leads to them making stupid decisions.

Well, the first thing you should realize is that what we see portrayed in the stories is not necessarily indicative of the entire setting at all times. The Eldar are not always fighting battles where they are desperate enough to throw their soldiers lives away. But we see that happen a disproportionate amount of the time for drama purposes. The last bit is just bad writing of course. But remember that their is a sort of "preservation bias" in what stories we read. We don't read about the hundreds of years of peace that the inhabitants of a craftworld enjoyed till a bunch of them tragically died in a botched mission, we just hear about the latter.


The Ad Mech is consistent. They are hungry for alien tech to study it. Not necessarily to reverse engineer it, just understand it. Find a weakness perhaps.

The reason they're not mass producing battlesuit copies is because they're inferior to Imperial technology. They're just larger and bulkier power armor. But equipping billions of Guardsmen with power armor and plasma guns is too expensive, which is why the Imperium doesn't use their best tech to equip their line troops. The Tau have the advantage of being small and thus being able to give everybody top tier stuff. At the scale of the Imperium they too would be forced to downgrade their troops gear.

Regarding Necron tomb worlds and Tyranids. You are looking at this from the perspective of an outside observer. You forget that the people in the setting do not have all the information. They have next to none of the information. Even within the Mechanicus, not everybody is sharing information with everybody. For most, they won't know what a Necron is. But they do know they've found some cool and shockingly intact xeno ruins on this planet that are chock full of interesting technology so lets go poking around! Not everybody knows how the Tyranids work. But I've got some sample creatures. They appear animalistic and not much of a threat, we'll breed them for experimentation!

And even if one Ad Mech guy in one place knows these things, that does nothing for an Ad Mech guy on the other side of the galaxy.

Because it's a dystopia, and because most factions are totalitarian theocracies ruled by raving lunatics and tyrants that would make Hitler look like a saint. Everything being full of stupidity and needless suffering and atrocities beyond imagination is the entire point of the setting. And you see inconsistencies because the characters are inconsistent. Half the admech want to loot battlesuit technology and use it for their own gain (and only their own gain), the other half believe without the slightest question that battlesuit technology is the most abhorrent of evils and no sacrifice is too large to destroy it and prevent it from polluting the sacred STC technology. And both sides would rather destroy the entire Imperium, causing the total extinction of humanity and unimaginable suffering and death for trillions, than allow the other to win or for a rival forge world to gain that technology instead.

Asking for people in 40k to be sensible and pragmatic is completely missing the setting and rapidly starts to get into dangerous ethical territory, where 40k is no longer a cautionary tale against the evils of fascism and religion and you are tempted to believe that maybe the Imperium is right, that maybe all the atrocities are in fact necessary and productive and good for humanity.

bibotot wrote:

Still, a lot of people supposedly with hundreds of years of training and experience are acting like they just graduate from a military academy and are eager to prove themselves through recklessly endangering themselves and others.

Well, the real answer is, "Because writing is hard and there is only war." But more internally consistent answers depend on the specific faction. To paint with broad strokes:
* Any faction from the imperium is likely to have a bunch of gloryhounds, zealots, or arrogant idiots mixed throughout their command structures. Even (especially?) space marines. Basically, the imperium has a habit of rewarding people for embracing ignorant, stupid behavior in the name of loyalty or faith or whatever, plus a lot of out-of-touch rich guys in positions of power.
* Chaos, as you mentioned, is chaos. Half of them are literally insane.
* Xenos vary quite a bit, but orks are orks, 'crons and eldar are prideful/xenophobic, and tyranids are tyranids. Tau usually behave at least somewhat rationally.

The Aeldari is the primest example. Despite being portrayed as a tiny race, they still do stupid gak such as needlessly throwing their soldiers into pitched battle instead of luring the enemy into ambushes.

Eh? That doesn't match most of the lore I recall. I feel like you have a specific example of this in mind? Generally, craftworlders will steer as clear of direct and large-scale conflict as possible. When they do show up en masse or for a head-to-head fight, it's because their seers feel like their destiny is in a pickle and taking the hard-mode fight is least bad choice. They'll pretty much always opt for the least risky course of action, but sometimes you don't have time to kite and guerilla ambush the enemy piece by piece before they make their way to the chaos temple and doom a sector by waking up a shoggoth.

They are also incapable of achieving anything except through other races.

That's... You know how you were just complaining about the eldar picking too many head-on fights? This is them not doing that. Why lose half your forces in a battle of attrition when you can send a single squad and a warlock to nudge some space marines into fighting the Waaagh for you?

There was a plot where Eldrad killed Abaddon, retconned. Iyanden used to send troops to Ichar 4 to fight the Tyranids, retconned. Yvraine adds a bit to the faction but is currently being ignored. All in all, GW just goes too hard with bashing the Aeldari that it is getting really annoying. If you have to put them in a bad situation, just have them outnumbered 100 to 1 where they can't win no matter how smart they are.

The Eldrad retcon is a thing, but like, no one really liked him being dead anyway. Eldar performed well in that campaign, and then our fluff reward was to "lose" one of our main characters. So when they rolled back the clock to do the 13th crusade again, it's understandable that they didn't do the meh thing a second time. Especially with all the other nonsense going on in that plot. I don't recall ever hearing about Ichar 4, and a quick google search doesn't mention anything about Iyanden in that fight, so I don't feel like we're losing too many cool points by retconning whatever that was. I love Yvraine, but having her dudes die in droves is literally part of her strategy, so I find it odd that you like her but don't like eldar taking on pitched battles.

But sure. Generally, GW goes out of their way to diablo ex machina eldar just because lol grimdark, or else we tend to get used as the punching bag for imperials. This is mostly just a side-effect of imperials (especially marines) being the poster boy factions.

The Adeptus Mechanicus is another. Very inconsistent between being hungry for acquiring alien tech no matter the cost and wanting to destroy anything that didn't have a recognized Machine Spirit. If GW were to be consistent, the Adeptus Mechanicus should be rolling out models based on Tau battlesuits by now. At least some radical faction will learn to reverse-engineer Tau technologies which are quite simplistic (not related to the Warp) compared to other races. In one incident in the Codex, it is even explicitly said that the Adeptus Mechanicus overrun a Tau world and steal many cargoes of their technologies. Another common trope for the Adeptus Mechanicus is triggering a doom they should have seen coming from a mile away, such as teleporting a nuke to another planet, trying to ransack a Necron tomb without proper preparation and firepower, or breeding Tyranids in labs.

The mechanicus is a faction full of ambitious, traitorous, zealot nerd politicians. Making dumb gambles for the sake of personal ambition is one of the major parts of the identity. They don't have tau tech because being superstitious and anti-progress are some of their biggest ironic flaws. And when someone *does* decide to take a gamble and try to use xenos to their advantage, that's exactly how you end up with the ticked off necrons and Jurassic Park tyranids you've just mentioned.

In other words, yes the IT priests are a dumb, self-defeating organization. That's kind of the point/satire.

With Necrons and Chaos Space Marines, I do like how it is explained why they are sometimes too stupid. The Necrons are bogged down by dynastic struggles (which also plagued their empire before the War in Haven), so a lot of the time, either political bickering or promotion based on loyalty rather than merit leads to military disaster. And Chaos is Chaos.

'Crons have internal conflicts, sure. A lot of them are straight up irrational in one way or another due to damage caused by the long sleep/faulty ressurections. And even if you ignore both of those considerations, they're also hyper-xenophobic, prideful rich kids. Not a great recipe for good decisions.

tldr; the game/setting demands that everyone be fighting everyone all the time. Each faction is intentionally given its own set of (usually irrational) reasons to engage in boots-on-the-ground combat so that you have a reason to fight each other.

Out of universe it could simply have to do with bad writing or careless handling of most races that are not space marines. But I'm not a big BL reader and we'll consider xerxes explainations as just spot on.

Otherwise:

Eldar: don't forget Eldar are also arrogant pricks, which is a shortcoming that'll get you in more than one tricky situation no matter how experienced you are. The erldar doingt dumb thing is sometimes entirely related to "ha, these mon keigh are so stupid i'll do it in no time". What's more, their thinking not being that of a human in theories, you're not necesseraly supposed to understand what they are doing. Now, yes, poor space elfs are often just molested by the writers i guess. But by and large I'm pretty sure their not that dumb in the lore and this only happens occasionaly.

Ad-mech: the admech wants to gahter and privatise all knowledge, not that they actually want to do anything with it, which is more of a magos per magos question. Xeno tech is heretical, so no, they won't do tau battlesuits if they can't assemble one through combining several STCs, because remember, up until cawl's gross raping of the lore (sorry personal opinion here), the admech only created knew tech by reconstructing or combining in new fancy ways previously existing tech, due to their beliefs in the machine god prohibiting any breaktrhoughs.

Necrons: you can add that necrons are affected by sorts of deseases and often madness due to their stasis tombs failing them. This could totally explain some characters' actions.

The only one that don't seem to do silly things as of now are the tau but maybe they did in lore which I didn't cath up, well, except for stepping on the Imperiums toes which if it survives long enough is inevitably supposed to bite them back in the butt, however this is logical due to them not knowing and hypothetical considering in what gak the imperium is sitting at that time.

Hope I made it helps a bit.

Edit: that took me so long too bend english into something correct that 2 long replies already showed up while I wrote. Gosh

To be fair, I kind of can't let eldar play the "alien mindset" card to justify their behavior any more. Sure, they have alien cultures with dense histories that they take very seriously, but there are plenty of books and short stories from the eldar point of view. We've had enough peeks into their thoughts to see that their motives and thought processes are extremely human. The whole extreme emotion thing basically just boils down to them acting like teens with poor impulse control.

So when what's his face decides to Leroy Jenkins the tyranids in the novel Valedor, it does come across as a bit silly. Like, my dude. You can't bemoan the slow death of your species and get all your dudes killed because you couldn't be bothered to wait for the rest of your team to group up. That's behavior for self-centered corsairs that are just living for the lulz; not for autarchs who are responsible for the future of an entire craftworld.

One thing to keep in mind is the vastness of the setting in space let alone time. Whilst one of the mantras of the setting is that, broadly speaking, most races have been in a stagnant state for around 10K years; the reality is that within each faction you will get some degree of variation of behaviour and attitude.

Because these behaviours can play out over whole systems this can mean that a large number of individuals behave differently within a faction than the "codex standard behaviour is described as".

You try on Earth describing how an English person behaves and holes general values and such and you can kind of get an approximation for the country as a whole - kind of. However the moment you start selecting individual regions, cities and people and social groups you'll find vast amounts of variety even up to behaviours that are counter to the "general national image."

You extrapolate that to whole systems of worlds and vast spaceships - many of which have many many many times the population of Earth today and you have a mindbogglingly vast population to variety to deal with.

'Everyone is either insane or needs to be an idiot for the plot/themes' is a horrible justification of bad writing.

I absolutely loathe the fact that Necrons or Chaos acting like complete fools all the time is just handwaved away with 'they're crazy and arrogant tho'.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
'Everyone is either insane or needs to be an idiot for the plot/themes' is a horrible justification of bad writing.

No, it's literally the point of the setting. A fascist theocracy is an inefficient and stupid way of running things and 40k is a demonstration of what happens when you take that to the scale of an entire galaxy. Just as real fascists blundered from suicidal declaration of war to idiotic "wonder weapons" to giving out pointy sticks to fight against tanks and machine guns the various factions in 40k are dragged down into failure by their own abhorrent beliefs. Remember that 40k has its origins in satire of Thatcher-era UK politics and its characterization of the Imperium is very deliberate.

Don’t forget that the background is something like a justification for the tabletop game. From a "reasonable" point of view most conflicts in 40K should/ could be solved by space ships and aircraft. However, the game is about super soldiers firing their weapons of mass destruction at point blank range and hitting each other with hammers. You need a background that explains why they're doing it that way so you end up with very "heroic" characters out of a Hollywood Action movie.

On Eldar?

Even their foresight is not perfect. They kind of do a Dr Strange, and try to nudge things to the most beneficial outcome. Yet sometimes, that’s inevitably going to mean the Least Detrimental outcome.

Sure, we may see hundreds if not thousands of Eldar lost in a battle or campaign. But, if the result of that campaign preserves tens or hundreds of thousands down the line, or even an entire Craftworld? It’s the price to pay.

Even when that is the calculus? There’s still never s guarantee it’ll go the desired way. It’s simply the Best Chance Of Getting The Necessary Outcome.

There’s also the wider question of Just How Many Eldar Are There. I tried a thread on that subject a while back, and it was pretty fun. Due to lack of solid info on pre-fall numbers no consensus was reached. But if they numbered in the trillions then (not that wild an estimate) then even just 1% surviving in Craftworlds and who knows what percentage safely tucked away in what would become Commoragh? You’re still talking billions of individuals, because big numbers are big.

Orks are far from stupid either. They’re just incredibly straight forward. They need battle to thrive. And their entire species is into that. As shown in that infamous quote? Winning or Losing doesn’t come into it, as long as the Orks have their fun.

Dark Eldar are pirates. They prefer pretty one sided raids, but the Galaxy being the Galaxy, that’s again never a guaranteed outcome. Then they can either cut their losses and run, or show off their prowess and overcome the odds for later bragging rights.

Adeptus Mechanicus just aren’t monolithic. Some (most?) abhor the use of Xenos Tech and will have nothing to do with it. Some might want to study it for the sake of gaining further knowledge, even if they’ve no intention of putting that knowledge to any use. Others yet consider it all the bounty of the Omnissiah, there to be understood and made eventual use of.

If anything, the curious motivations of Eldar, Orks, Ad Mech et al adds to the alien nature of 40K. Thought processes and world views which baffle and confuse modern humans. The fact we don’t understand them or even misunderstand is the whole point. And not shoddy writing.

The Ad Mech for instance aren’t just a technology cult. They’re a technology worshipping cult. They don’t really do innovation, because thanks to the now near mythical STC? The Ad Mech consider everything knowable known - you just need to find the previous answer.

There’s a great quote along similar lines. I think it’s from Ricky Gervais of all people. The gist is that if all copies of a given religious text were lost, that religious text could never be re-written in exactly the same way. But if we lost all our scientific knowledge? We’d still get back to the same answers via the same methods. It would just take time.

Ad Mech are an odd perversion of that claim. They wield truly astounding tech and toys, but just don’t really understand them for the most part. They lack the inquisitiveness of modern science, where we seek to not just achieve an aim, but understand why and how a given thing works. And from there, maybe even use that knowledge of a novel, otherwise unrelated process. And so it all atrophies.

Considering people now are dumb as rocks why should people 40000 years in the future be any different.

Cuz BL writers cant write for gak

 Gert wrote:
Considering people now are dumb as rocks why should people 40000 years in the future be any different.

However true it may be, this sentence threw me on the floor rolling with laughter.

I don't know whether the alien psyche theme is actually purposedly used in any BL book, I don't read any or almost so I can't judge but sometimes reading the comments of other mainly here on dakka for exemple it seems most of them are just horribly baly written but it's incredibly cooler to give room to that theory. After all, as a fictional setting, 40k needs you to be naive on purpose if you are to enjoy it, as is the case of any fictional story or universe.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
'Everyone is either insane or needs to be an idiot for the plot/themes' is a horrible justification of bad writing.

No, it's literally the point of the setting. A fascist theocracy is an inefficient and stupid way of running things and 40k is a demonstration of what happens when you take that to the scale of an entire galaxy. Just as real fascists blundered from suicidal declaration of war to idiotic "wonder weapons" to giving out pointy sticks to fight against tanks and machine guns the various factions in 40k are dragged down into failure by their own abhorrent beliefs. Remember that 40k has its origins in satire of Thatcher-era UK politics and its characterization of the Imperium is very deliberate.

I'm not sure that satirising Thatcherism should lead to the Chaos plan in Titanicus ('hey guys lets hold half of our titans back for no reason despite needing to overwhelm the defending Imperial forces quickly - which we totally could do if we used all of our dudes'), or literally any of the room temperature IQ actions that the Marine and Necron commanders take in The World Engine ('lets just not defend anything. That sounds like the winning move!'), for examples...

 Lord Damocles wrote:
which we totally could do if we used all of our dudes

You mean "if we demonstrated weakness by using more troops than necessary, in the process leaving no reserve to defend against a rival who sees that weakness as an opportunity to seize power". Winning on the battlefield is just a means to an end for Chaos forces, internal power struggles occupy the majority of their time and attention.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
'Everyone is either insane or needs to be an idiot for the plot/themes' is a horrible justification of bad writing.

I absolutely loathe the fact that Necrons or Chaos acting like complete fools all the time is just handwaved away with 'they're crazy and arrogant tho'.

I do too enjoy a massive over-simplification of mental illness, being mentally ill myself.

It's gotten too the point where I genuinely believe Chaos is nothing more than just "stupidity" made manifest. Like, the opposite of how Orks work (So, incredibly stupid to the point that they succeed) and are simply the settings' "paper tiger".

Looks, really scary, but would get absolutely bodied by one of Roboute's shiny nu-marines. Hell, I'm fairly sure Chaos is a joke faction now with the amount of memes, losses, and sheer stupid that infests the faction to it's very core. There like Cobra
or Skeletor-tier now.

Tell me you’ve only read 4chan summary without telling me you’ve only read 4chan summary.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tell me you’ve only read 4chan summary without telling me you’ve only read 4chan summary.

An extension is that even if you do read the full book after such a summary; is that you can end up interpreting the work the same way because you went into it pre-loaded with a viewpoint. It's often why I try to avoid too many reviews before engaging with media. The kind of review I like is more of a technical approach to say that its good quality at what it does or is bad at what it does etc... I then want to engage with the story and weigh that up on my own. Heck I don't even try to read blurbs too much on books because almost all of them make most books sound silly/trite/simplified/daft/impossible

 Lord Damocles wrote:

I'm not sure that satirising Thatcherism should lead to the Chaos plan in Titanicus ('hey guys lets hold half of our titans back for no reason despite needing to overwhelm the defending Imperial forces quickly - which we totally could do if we used all of our dudes'), or literally any of the room temperature IQ actions that the Marine and Necron commanders take in The World Engine ('lets just not defend anything. That sounds like the winning move!'), for examples...

The problem is that the Imperium is written as inefficient, corrupt, stupid, etc decently often, but then writers try to shoehorn the idea of them being a heroic protagonist who outsmarts the enemy in too often. Non-Imperium factions should regularly be making the Imperium look like the dunces they are; you just need to look at Kelly's writing of the Tau to see how everyone gets dumbed down when the Imperium's involved so that nobody makes them look too bad.

 Grey Templar wrote:

The reason they're not mass producing battlesuit copies is because they're inferior to Imperial technology. They're just larger and bulkier power armor. But equipping billions of Guardsmen with power armor and plasma guns is too expensive, which is why the Imperium doesn't use their best tech to equip their line troops. The Tau have the advantage of being small and thus being able to give everybody top tier stuff. At the scale of the Imperium they too would be forced to downgrade their troops gear.

No, the reason the Admech don't supply everyone with power armor is twofold:
1.) The Admech are selfish pricks who provide the Imperium with as little as they can get away with.
2.) You don't give hive world gangers conscripted into the Imperial Guard enough power for them to become a problem. This is why Space Marines are hypno-programmed to within an inch of their lives, and Sisters of Battle are indoctrinated from birth.

The reason the Tau can equip their soldiers better is because they're a highly trained professional army. Fire Warriors are trained from birth to be soldiers. The Imperium often scoops up millions from hive worlds, trains them en route to battle and throw them into the crucible of war as soon as possible. So you give them the cheap and effective Lasgun, which is low maintenance and easy as hell to use.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
a medieval knight could postulate on the best use of attack helicopters.

"I see! You assail the foe from the air as a knight on a mighty steed and shear them in twain with the spell blades atop!"

"Nope. Doesn't work that way."

"... I am a knight syr, not a sorcerer."

 John Prins wrote:


No, the reason the Admech don't supply everyone with power armor is twofold:
1.) The Admech are selfish pricks who provide the Imperium with as little as they can get away with.
2.) You don't give hive world gangers conscripted into the Imperial Guard enough power for them to become a problem. This is why Space Marines are hypno-programmed to within an inch of their lives, and Sisters of Battle are indoctrinated from birth.

The reason the Tau can equip their soldiers better is because they're a highly trained professional army. Fire Warriors are trained from birth to be soldiers. The Imperium often scoops up millions from hive worlds, trains them en route to battle and throw them into the crucible of war as soon as possible. So you give them the cheap and effective Lasgun, which is low maintenance and easy as hell to use.

It's also because the Imperium is absolutely terrible at logistics. Lasguns are a logisticians wet dream. Pulse weaponry, which requires you to isolate and purify high-energy ionized gas as ammunition, is much trickier.

If the Tau were the size of the Imperium they'd still have better logistics than the Imperium and still be using better tech.

 Abanshee wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
'Everyone is either insane or needs to be an idiot for the plot/themes' is a horrible justification of bad writing.

I absolutely loathe the fact that Necrons or Chaos acting like complete fools all the time is just handwaved away with 'they're crazy and arrogant tho'.

I do too enjoy a massive over-simplification of mental illness, being mentally ill myself.

It's gotten too the point where I genuinely believe Chaos is nothing more than just "stupidity" made manifest. Like, the opposite of how Orks work (So, incredibly stupid to the point that they succeed) and are simply the settings' "paper tiger".

Looks, really scary, but would get absolutely bodied by one of Roboute's shiny nu-marines. Hell, I'm fairly sure Chaos is a joke faction now with the amount of memes, losses, and sheer stupid that infests the faction to it's very core. There like Cobra
or Skeletor-tier now.

In a way, this is kinda true.

The Chaos Gods themselves are to blame. They don't have an end goal. They don't want to win, they want the status quo to be maintained. Their followers want to win, but not the Chaos Gods. They've already won in a sense. A galaxy of chaos and suffering and constant strife. So its now all about milking it for all its worth.

There is almost certainly a lot of deliberate sabotage of Chaos forces by their own patrons. They'll give power to a champion for a while, but eventually they'll get bored of him winning so they'll let him die eventually in a spectacular fashion and pick another dude. They'll never let their champions bring down the Imperium, they'll let them rampage but if they do too well they'll let them lose when the time comes.

To use the Skeletor or Cobra analogy. its like if those guys had some entity backing them, a patron who gives them stuff so they can do their bidding. But this entity doesn't want them to win. He wants the show to keep going forever. He wants Skeletor to constantly be fighting He-man forever. He wants Cobra to constantly be fighting GI Joe, forever. All so he can watch the shenanigans.

The Chaos followers themselves are fully serious about the part. They aren't trying to be cartoon villains. But they are the playthings of their gods, and the gods want their followers to be cartoon villains. Abaddon is fully aware of this tragedy, which is why he hates the gods and is trying to succeed in-spite of their meddlings.

 Abanshee wrote:
Hell, I'm fairly sure Chaos is a joke faction now with the amount of memes, losses, and sheer stupid that infests the faction to it's very core. There like Cobra or Skeletor-tier now.

Chaos has to be fairly successful most of the time, just to get thwarted when they diabolical scheme is coming to fruition.
Otherwise, what is Exterminatus for?

As Grey Templar points out, the Chaos gods basically want to maintain the status quo, and the chances of someone disrupting the status quo any time soon are relatively low.

You don't get a lot of stories about Nurgle bemoaning a great loss because the Chaos gods are fat and happy and that "great loss" is basically the equivalent of Nurgle's assistant being a couple of minutes late with his lunch. Basically, the chaos gods don't have to try very hard because they aren't in a position to lose much power in a hurry. With the possible exception of Slaanesh who is probably getting a little nervous about this new Ynnead guy.

Chaos marines tend to be handled with varying degrees of seriousness/intelligence. The warp-touched ones tend to become obsessed with something thematic or spooky (skull collecting, spreading disease, etc.) and tend to be prone to bad decision making as a result. Some are just so old and tired and disheartened that they kind of give up on making decent decisions and just fall into a routine of raiding and violence. The ones that are still sane and ambitious enough to make a go of things tend to be portrayed as pretty reasonable overall (I'm thinking of several characters from various AL novels), although they still have to deal with the bickering of their allies, a lack of stable supply lines, and striking the balance between having ambition and setting reasonable goals. (Rather than deciding to bull rush Terra or whatever.)

A lot of it is dogma/culture.just because a 'better' way of doing something might exist doesn't mean people in positions of power will do it.

Look at some of the Japanese tactics during ww2. Banzai charges into pre-sighted artillery grounds and machine gun nests was a thing until the very last days of the war. Similarly, defensive counter methods were seen as anthithecal to the spirit of bushido oftentimes so their ships were incredibly vulnerable to allied submarines.

I'm.sure you can find hundreds examples across history. Even being 'nice' sometimes all that's available is the most basic/simple plans because of the quality of your troops/training/communications. If you have a few thousand conscripts with 2 months training en-route to the theatre of war, no commander will expect them to be capable of complex manoeuvres or subtle strategies involving coordinated/combined arms. Regarding the latter, remember as well politics and personality plays a role. Generals samsonov and rennenkampf hated each other and their rivalry and refusal to work together led in large part to the Russian loss at the battle of tannenberg at the start of ww1. Again, thousands of similar stories Will exist.

Now, eldar? OK they have hundreds of years of life. Is that constantly learning and evolving or simply repeating old dogmas? Whole point of 'the path' is you double down on a single-minded approach. They are hammers. All problrms look like nails. If anything eldar would be incredibly stuck in their ways, their sheer arrogant assumption of their own superioroty would be a massive mental block towards even conceiving their tactics are less than perfect or that their opponents are capable.

Ad.mech are dogmatic as anything as well as paranoid. They want to hoard the technology but they don't want to disseminate it, they want to control it. Everything they do is self-interested, first and foremost.

Another thing to consider, esp with the Imperium, is how dogma and smallg-cog is engrained heavily into society.

For the vast majority of citizens life is about doing small things as part of a big machine. Workers or administrators might have very specific very limited roles. They do a tiny part of the greater whole which means not only that they might not even understand the greater whole, but also that any innovation is heavily discouraged because they only control one small part and any change would have knock-on effects further up

When your whole working life is filling in form 1004.4B you can't change 1004.4B because it will thus not be approved by the next person along. etc....


This level of thinking and approach is engrained into the Imperium


It's not stupidity its simply a mindset and attitude toward being one tiny cog in the machine where thinking outside the box is discouraged from a young age

The thing about Chaos is that it is weakness made power.

Chaos preys on weaknesses to corrupt, and that means most Chaos characters are full of weaknesses as those don't disappear just because they gained daemonhood.

IIRC Horus complained that the Primarchs that followed him into rebellion were a bunch of nutcases vs the far more competent Primarchs that remained loyal. The best current example being Mortarion's obsession with personally defeating Guilliman led to a portion of the Garden being burned down and Granddaddy Nurgle being very pissed at him.

In terms of toppling the Imperium? You need to consider just how utterly vast it is. You could crush a sector, and still face overwhelming retribution. Unless you can take Terra out of the equation, which remember even Horus failed to do at the zenith of Chaos’ potential.

And since then? The Imperium has essentially been on a permanent war footing, it’s entire industry turned to its own preservation.

This is where Cults do so much damage, like, disproportionate damage. Not just during uprisings, but during constant purges and rooting them out.

Yet The Imperium can sustain far greater losses than Chaos simply because of its sheer, staggering size.

 Tyran wrote:
The thing about Chaos is that it is weakness made power.

Chaos preys on weaknesses to corrupt, and that means most Chaos characters are full of weaknesses as those don't disappear just because they gained daemonhood.

IIRC Horus complained that the Primarchs that followed him into rebellion were a bunch of nutcases vs the far more competent Primarchs that remained loyal. The best current example being Mortarion's obsession with personally defeating Guilliman led to a portion of the Garden being burned down and Granddaddy Nurgle being very pissed at him.

Not a general rule because otherwise that'd mean all those who stay loyal are likely to be the better people and clearly the imperium is rife with incompetence and stupidity.

But, tbh, I never thought about it that way although that makes sense.

I skimmed through posts so I hope and don't repeat something but the Chaos Gods, I believe, have one goal: to grow and grow and grow. But as all of them try to grow and eat each other they constantly face off and shoot one another in the back both in the warp and in the material universe, so they can't thrive up to that ultimate goal. After all, the self destructivness of Chaos indeed has got a God. Malal is to good a thing to be forgotten.

We can also look to AoS to see how Chaos is kind of inherently self-defeating.

United front when the war was on. But as soon as the scales tipped in favour of Chaos and Azyr was shut off? Every God For Itself.

Granted they utterly trashed the Mortal Realms, but Chaos and Chaos alone prevented its own ultimate, final victory. Because there can be only one winner, and they will absolutely scrap it out as soon as the enemy looks half way defeated.

I i am not wrong, it is stated in 40k lore that the chaos united only twice: once to scatter the emperor's progeny and then to corrupt horus after realising it didn't faired as expected.

Then Abaddon is kind of supported by all four gods but they still exchange blows with one another anyway now that Emp is down anyway.

This is as much of a question as it is a remark to the topic, I'm not sure.

It’s definitely a rare event that all four will pursue a common goal without tripping each other up.

There may be other instances, but none immediately spring to mind.

It isn't just the Gods. Chaos warlords, both mortal and Daemonic, despise, undermine and constantly betray each other. The Path to Glory is too narrow to be walked side by side.

 Overread wrote:
It's not stupidity its simply a mindset and attitude toward being one tiny cog in the machine where thinking outside the box is discouraged from a young age

Nah, it's definitely stupidity.


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 Tyran wrote:
The thing about Chaos is that it is weakness made power.

Chaos preys on weaknesses to corrupt, and that means most Chaos characters are full of weaknesses as those don't disappear just because they gained daemonhood.

IIRC Horus complained that the Primarchs that followed him into rebellion were a bunch of nutcases vs the far more competent Primarchs that remained loyal. The best current example being Mortarion's obsession with personally defeating Guilliman led to a portion of the Garden being burned down and Granddaddy Nurgle being very pissed at him.

That's more just because of the excessive protagonization/lionization of the loyalist side over time. The post-5e fluff that wanted to portray Chaos followers as LOSERS who didn't stay loyal to the (totally justified) fascist, genocidal, ignorant, corrupt Imperium has too much of this.

We're literally exterminating ourselves right now with full knowledge that we're doing it. Ain't seen nothing going on in 40k that's dumber than real life.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
We're literally exterminating ourselves right now with full knowledge that we're doing it. Ain't seen nothing going on in 40k that's dumber than real life.

In 40k, there's nobody going "Wait hold on a second, this is a bad idea."

I'll take a step to the side and give a tongue in cheek answer. Please misunderstand it right:

The widespread dumbness is a realistic historical reference, dialled up.

History inspire us with its geniuses, inventors, conquerors, heroes and saints. It electrify us with its excellence, its inventions, its art, its great deeds, adventures, selflessness and its groundbreaking discoveries.

But more to the point, history studied closely also informs us with its lapping oceans of mediocrity, stupidity and dysfunctionality.

Dumbness might be dumb, but it is not unrealistic.

Cheers

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:We can also look to AoS to see how Chaos is kind of inherently self-defeating.

United front when the war was on. But as soon as the scales tipped in favour of Chaos and Azyr was shut off? Every God For Itself.

Granted they utterly trashed the Mortal Realms, but Chaos and Chaos alone prevented its own ultimate, final victory. Because there can be only one winner, and they will absolutely scrap it out as soon as the enemy looks half way defeated.

Chaos in AoS can operate slightly differently though. Chaos in 40K is looking at the whole Galaxy in one go. It's the entire table of play.
In AoS even though the Mortal Realms are vast they are but one port in the sea. Old World wasn't the only life giving world, the Mortal Realms are vast but also not the only life and magic infused realm. They are simply one of many. This means Chaos CAN win - as it did in the Old World.
Yes it will still be self-defeating, but with enough drive behind it, there is potential for Chaos to win on that battlefield and to destroy the Mortal Realms; realm by realm if need be.

That's one big difference in the settings, there's no "wait we really do have to stop winning" element.

Hecaton wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
We're literally exterminating ourselves right now with full knowledge that we're doing it. Ain't seen nothing going on in 40k that's dumber than real life.

In 40k, there's nobody going "Wait hold on a second, this is a bad idea."

Sometimes there is, but they are classed as mad, insane, heretical and often either ignored or killed

Authoritarian regimes tend to:

A.) Pit different elements of the state against each other.
B.) Discourage independent thought and initiative.

At least with the Imperium, that explains it.

Pitting different elements against one another in the imperium in my mind justifies to some extent overreads thesis of the "cog syndrome" in humanity.

The imperium divides, pitting it's military branches against one another, it's administrative branches against one another, it's political factions against one another, and then those corps still against one another.

I can imagine it to have 2 consequences leading to dumb actions on behalf of ts characters. First, they never get the full picture even, not only because the universe is vast but because someone somewhere is actively trying to restrict him from, or he hasn't been taught what he needed.

Or, he knows, is competent but he faces active resistance from other branches actively trying to make him fail (I'm thinking of Vraks and the fuss between IG and Iquisition), so hiss clever plans are dialed down due to it's own side stabbing him in the back.

In the end, he looks like an idiot anyway!

But as was already stated above that applies to chaos rivalries, necron dynastic wars, eldar intrigues and philosophy about their future, ork brawls for the sake of it...

Only the Tau are notably consistent as a society, which might be why they act less stupidly. Does'nt mean they're not donkey-caves. But their unity of purpose is above that of any other faction of the setting saved the nids.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
Hell, I'm fairly sure Chaos is a joke faction now with the amount of memes, losses, and sheer stupid that infests the faction to it's very core. There like Cobra or Skeletor-tier now.

Chaos has to be fairly successful most of the time, just to get thwarted when they diabolical scheme is coming to fruition.
Otherwise, what is Exterminatus for?

Fair point. Exterminatus > Chaos as a faction.


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 Grey Templar wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
'Everyone is either insane or needs to be an idiot for the plot/themes' is a horrible justification of bad writing.

I absolutely loathe the fact that Necrons or Chaos acting like complete fools all the time is just handwaved away with 'they're crazy and arrogant tho'.

I do too enjoy a massive over-simplification of mental illness, being mentally ill myself.

It's gotten too the point where I genuinely believe Chaos is nothing more than just "stupidity" made manifest. Like, the opposite of how Orks work (So, incredibly stupid to the point that they succeed) and are simply the settings' "paper tiger".

Looks, really scary, but would get absolutely bodied by one of Roboute's shiny nu-marines. Hell, I'm fairly sure Chaos is a joke faction now with the amount of memes, losses, and sheer stupid that infests the faction to it's very core. There like Cobra
or Skeletor-tier now.

In a way, this is kinda true.

The Chaos Gods themselves are to blame. They don't have an end goal. They don't want to win, they want the status quo to be maintained. Their followers want to win, but not the Chaos Gods. They've already won in a sense. A galaxy of chaos and suffering and constant strife. So its now all about milking it for all its worth.

There is almost certainly a lot of deliberate sabotage of Chaos forces by their own patrons. They'll give power to a champion for a while, but eventually they'll get bored of him winning so they'll let him die eventually in a spectacular fashion and pick another dude. They'll never let their champions bring down the Imperium, they'll let them rampage but if they do too well they'll let them lose when the time comes.

To use the Skeletor or Cobra analogy. its like if those guys had some entity backing them, a patron who gives them stuff so they can do their bidding. But this entity doesn't want them to win. He wants the show to keep going forever. He wants Skeletor to constantly be fighting He-man forever. He wants Cobra to constantly be fighting GI Joe, forever. All so he can watch the shenanigans.

The Chaos followers themselves are fully serious about the part. They aren't trying to be cartoon villains. But they are the playthings of their gods, and the gods want their followers to be cartoon villains. Abaddon is fully aware of this tragedy, which is why he hates the gods and is trying to succeed in-spite of their meddlings.

Yeah, I can't argue against that. I mean by the time of the Siege, the Iron Warriors were practically hard-carrying the traitors to the point that Perturabo rage-quit and left the Traitor Legion's official Discord channel, lol.

It's just frustrating watching interesting villians (I fething loved Abaddon in ADB's BL books and genuinely felt for his cause) be very static with their development and not really accomplish much, but I guess that's the point. They're damned.

I do wonder how the Renegade God would play into all of this, Malal. He's inherently self-destructive, yet seeks to destroy everything else entirely. I do like that out of all the gods he sort of has a goal: Total and utter annihilation of everything, him
included.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tell me you’ve only read 4chan summary without telling me you’ve only read 4chan summary.

Tell me you make assumptions by literally telling me.

 Abanshee wrote:


Yeah, I can't argue against that. I mean by the time of the Siege, the Iron Warriors were practically hard-carrying the traitors to the point that Perturabo rage-quit and left the Traitor Legion's official Discord channel, lol.

It's just frustrating watching interesting villians (I fething loved Abaddon in ADB's BL books and genuinely felt for his cause) be very static with their development and not really accomplish much, but I guess that's the point. They're damned.

Eh, followers of Chaos aren't really any more damned than followers of the Emperor. It's one soul-eating nigh-omnicidal god for another.

The lionization of the Imperium, which is supposed to be corrupt, inefficient, ignorant, etc, has bad knockoff effects for the rest of the setting.

Hecaton wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:


Yeah, I can't argue against that. I mean by the time of the Siege, the Iron Warriors were practically hard-carrying the traitors to the point that Perturabo rage-quit and left the Traitor Legion's official Discord channel, lol.

It's just frustrating watching interesting villians (I fething loved Abaddon in ADB's BL books and genuinely felt for his cause) be very static with their development and not really accomplish much, but I guess that's the point. They're damned.

Eh, followers of Chaos aren't really any more damned than followers of the Emperor. It's one soul-eating nigh-omnicidal god for another.

The lionization of the Imperium, which is supposed to be corrupt, inefficient, ignorant, etc, has bad knockoff effects for the rest of the setting.

Sure, I guess you could look at it that way, but I see the Emperor as better than the Chaos Gods. He isn't solely dedicated to leeching off of humanity and his god status is fairly complicated. He doesn't see himself as a god, displays the abilities of divine beings, however, most of his origins start with him as a man (or a collective of humans, if you go with the psyker suicide myth). Plus, he actually wants to progress humanity, he just went about it in utterly uncaring ways.

I can see why Games Workshop glorified the Imperium over other factions or outright ignored the satire in favor of pushing the development of the setting forward. It makes them more money since the Imperium is by far the most played out of any of the factions. Also, they get the opportunity to create interesting character/plot developments within the setting by setting the satire to the side for a moment. Has it been set to the side for far too long? I guess so, but like every faction has glaring
issues with their characterization.

Tyranids? Intended to be the giant middle finger to the galaxy and ends up getting stomped on by the Marines, most of the time.

Necrons? Were changed to have more "character" ended up getting like 3 or so books on their characters alone. Also, could be argued that they're literally space tomb kings now.

Chaos? Fights amongst itself to the point it becomes a running joke and can never conceivably achieve anything of note. Thereby, accidentally creating a joke faction.

Eldar? How long has it been stated that "they're a dying race, soon to be cast to the wind" and then show up at battles with the full-strength of a Craftworld, with like two wraith units.

Tau? Can't decide if they morally questionable or just the Imperium, "but not like the other girls".

 Abanshee wrote:


Sure, I guess you could look at it that way, but I see the Emperor as better than the Chaos Gods. He isn't solely dedicated to leeching off of humanity and his god status is fairly complicated. He doesn't see himself as a god, displays the abilities of divine beings, however, most of his origins start with him as a man (or a collective of humans, if you go with the psyker suicide myth). Plus, he actually wants to progress humanity, he just went about it in utterly uncaring ways.

He says his motivations are good, but so does Chaos. And he was a sadistically cruel imitation of a father to his sons and a genocidal maniac before he got shoved on the throne. He hypocritically accepted being worshiped as a god by the AdMech but took great pleasure in pitting Guilliman against Lorgar over the topic, like a child with a couple of insects in a jar trying to get them to fight.

His version of a perfect humanity was like the Custodes, slaves to his will. His motivations were anything but pure, in my estimation, and I think the text supports that. He was all for wholesale genocide of innocent mutants, who are not a threat, when he was ambulatory, and he set the tone for his followers to do the same for ten thousand years.

 Abanshee wrote:


I can see why Games Workshop glorified the Imperium over other factions or outright ignored the satire in favor of pushing the development of the setting forward. It makes them more money since the Imperium is by far the most played out of any of the factions. Also, they get the opportunity to create interesting character/plot developments within the setting by setting the satire to the side for a moment. Has it been set to the side for far too long? I guess so, but like every faction has glaring
issues with their characterization.

I can see why, but it doesn't reflect well on GE to make the baby-murdering turbofascists the heroes of the setting. There's plenty of room for plot development that involves all the factions, as well. It's an open question as to whether or not other choices would have made GW more money, especially when they won't open up production facilities in the US despite the financial sense it would make to do so.

When has Chaos ever said their motivations are good? They are very openly about slavery, rape, baby murdery, spreading disease, standard murdery and dragging reality into the warp.

The IoM is genocidal, fascists and all that, but Chaos characters are former Imperials that found standard genocide boring and standard fascism lukewarm and decided to find something worse.

 Tyran wrote:
When has Chaos ever said their motivations are good? They are very openly about slavery, rape, baby murdery, spreading disease, standard murdery and dragging reality into the warp.

The IoM is genocidal, fascists and all that, but Chaos characters are former Imperials that found standard genocide boring and standard fascism lukewarm and decided to find something worse.

Seems just about as bad from where I'm standing.

Hecaton wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
When has Chaos ever said their motivations are good? They are very openly about slavery, rape, baby murdery, spreading disease, standard murdery and dragging reality into the warp.

The IoM is genocidal, fascists and all that, but Chaos characters are former Imperials that found standard genocide boring and standard fascism lukewarm and decided to find something worse.

Seems just about as bad from where I'm standing.

I'd totally report you to the authorities if you uttered this. Hypothetically of course if we both lived there. Your line of thinking could turn me into a disgusting nurgle creature hahaha

Hecaton wrote:

Seems just about as bad from where I'm standing.

You could even say Chaos gets bonus points for being honest about it.

But still that is beside the point.

To answer the OP's question: because the target audience is about twelve, and it takes more work to make something make sense to someone who isn't a twelve-year-old boy than it does to make a twelve-year-old boy go "woah awesome!" (see: Eragon.)

Swastakowey wrote:


I'd totally report you to the authorities if you uttered this. Hypothetically of course if we both lived there. Your line of thinking could turn me into a disgusting nurgle creature hahaha

Huh? One of the things in the setting is that Chaos isn't actually a cognitohazard.

 Tyran wrote:
When has Chaos ever said their motivations are good? They are very openly about slavery, rape, baby murdery, spreading disease, standard murdery and dragging reality into the warp.

The IoM is genocidal, fascists and all that, but Chaos characters are former Imperials that found standard genocide boring and standard fascism lukewarm and decided to find something worse.

Those that argue for Chaos within the universe generally take these stances:

1. Chaos is the honest true nature of reality that the Emperor tried to conceal from humanity.

This basically is arguing that the Chaos gods are "honest" to their own natures, and that this therefore makes the atrocities committed in their name more justifiable as compared to those done in the Emperor's names, since those were done in the name of a lie.

2. Chaos is freedom

It is the kind of will to power freedom in that those that are strong enough or lucky enough to achieve more or grasp power are free to gain the power and climb ever higher. It is a callous kind of freedom though as it does not care what happens to those that are mediocre and that lack such talent (i.e. the vast bulk of humanity). The critique applied to the Imperium is that it oppresses all and stifles those with the intelligence, strength, and talent to do better from achieving their potential. Chaos has no such systemic oppression and is the law of the jungle. If you think you deserve better, you need to seize power and make others respect/fear you. If you try and fail, clearly you were too weak and deserve to be killed, tortured, or otherwise mistreated.

Of course, every Chaos Champion believes they are among those that deserve to be on top, and they have some reason to think so since they have already been given gifts from the Chaos gods. However for the slave toiling away at building temples and monuments for the Word Bearers, and doomed to likely be a sacrifice once the project is done, a life as a boring scribe in the Imperium might not be so bad by comparison.

Hecaton wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:


I'd totally report you to the authorities if you uttered this. Hypothetically of course if we both lived there. Your line of thinking could turn me into a disgusting nurgle creature hahaha

Huh? One of the things in the setting is that Chaos isn't actually a cognitohazard.

Actually it is.

A naive person who doesn't know anything about chaos is safer than someone who does know about it(and also doesn't know proper mental safety protocols). A person who knows too much might start thinking about that sort of thing, and thoughts can draw the attention of daemons.

This is why collecting psykers and heretical tomes is important, as is suppressing information regarding anything about the nature of the warp and its residents beyond "There are bad things there!". Even if a loyal citizen knew that daemons existed and was on-board with them being evil, if you didn't train them to guard their mind after knowing such information they might begin to have stray thoughts. They might try to rationalize what they know or have seen, and that could doom whole planets.

Of course it is debatable if less damage might be done by admitting its existance but also religiously ingraining the proper mental conditioning into the population. In some ways, the Ecclesiarchy kinda does as its religious litanies can protect you from the warp even if you are naive to its true nature but being more open about the protections might be a better idea. Either way could be viewed as the correct choice.

 Tyran wrote:
When has Chaos ever said their motivations are good?

Since before GW decided to play it straight with heroic space marines. The Chaos gods embodied both virtues and vices, and even people who thought they were doing good could easily be serving Chaos. See here for some discussion of the concept: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/673274.page

 Grey Templar wrote:


Actually it is.

*snip*

Nah, you're confusing the in-universe propaganda for what's actually given as third-party omniscient information. The Grey Knights, especially, believe (or at least say that they believe) that the mere knowledge of Chaos is a risk, but given their penchant for massacring civilians and their willingness to backstab other parts of the Imperium to maintain their status and institutional power, it's clear that they gain a concrete benefit from claiming as they do. If you read the Chaos Daemons 9e codex you'll notice the shift in tone - Chaos is this, Chaos is that, and then when it gets to what you're describing it's all "The Grey Knights and others believe...", clearly avoiding making a statement supporting it objectively.

This fits in with the theme during the HH of the Emperor's hubris in keeping information from the Primarchs leading to the problem itself. If you value ignorance as a virtue, at least for those serving you (which the Emperor did, and many in the Imperium clearly do, then you will make sacrifices to enable that ideology. It's not a matter of expedience or protection - it's a matter of ego-tripping and selfishness on the part of those who claim that Chaos is a cognitohazard.

The Emperor trained his most psychically capable Primarch in all things of the warp and said "Don't make deals with denizens of the warp". What does Magnus do? He makes a deal with a denizen of the warp.

Can you imagine why this guy didn't trust anyone with more information about Chaos than he thinks they are capable of handling? The one guy he thought could handle the truth fell for the very thing he told him to look out for.

Two core guidepost in 40K: Power Corrupts and Knowledge Corrupts.

There is a giant warp rift splitting the galaxy in half and pretty much every world was exposed to Chaos in some way by it.

If knowledge of Chaos alone corrupted then the IoM would have already fallen because by this point everyone knows Chaos.

 Tyran wrote:
There is a giant warp rift splitting the galaxy in half and pretty much every world was exposed to Chaos in some way by it.

If knowledge of Chaos alone corrupted then the IoM would have already fallen because by this point everyone knows Chaos.

that's what I thought about in the first place when I heard about that piece of new lore, one that make me ponder, "they just flung the universe's logic out of the window". In the pre greatrift lore I still play in the corrupting influence of knowlegde above is valid. In my view at the beginning this is a huge factor and a big contributor in making the setting miserable, so to an extent participating in giving it its atmosphere.


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On our topic though you could say people are just too slowed or uninformed to come to the conclusion that this is chaos by themselves but still more influencial figures should I guess.

It should be noted that "Chaos" as a concept isn't always well defined for the average lay person in the setting. They might know "Chaos" is a thing but not really know that its what the local preacher is actually telling them about in weekly Sermons.

Chaos has always had this ability to present itself as something other than what it really is. Many have fallen to Chaos thinking that they are doing good for another force of the Imperium or that they are helping etc...

Heck even Inquisitors, who know a LOT about Chaos, often end up falling to its temptations.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:


that's what I thought about in the first place when I heard about that piece of new lore, one that make me ponder, "they just flung the universe's logic out of the window". In the pre greatrift lore I still play in the corrupting influence of knowlegde above is valid. In my view at the beginning this is a huge factor and a big contributor in making the setting miserable, so to an extent participating in giving it its atmosphere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On our topic though you could say people are just too slowed or uninformed to come to the conclusion that this is chaos by themselves but still more influencial figures should I guess.

You misunderstood the lore then. Chaos is not inherently corrupting via knowledge, but people in the setting thought it did, or found it convenient to enforce that idea for self-serving reasons.


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 Overread wrote:
It should be noted that "Chaos" as a concept isn't always well defined for the average lay person in the setting. They might know "Chaos" is a thing but not really know that its what the local preacher is actually telling them about in weekly Sermons.

Chaos has always had this ability to present itself as something other than what it really is. Many have fallen to Chaos thinking that they are doing good for another force of the Imperium or that they are helping etc...

Heck even Inquisitors, who know a LOT about Chaos, often end up falling to its temptations.

The Inquisition also tends to self-select for psychopaths with no morals, it's no surprise a lot of them go off the deep end.


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 alextroy wrote:
The Emperor trained his most psychically capable Primarch in all things of the warp and said "Don't make deals with denizens of the warp". What does Magnus do? He makes a deal with a denizen of the warp.

Can you imagine why this guy didn't trust anyone with more information about Chaos than he thinks they are capable of handling? The one guy he thought could handle the truth fell for the very thing he told him to look out for.

Two core guidepost in 40K: Power Corrupts and Knowledge Corrupts.

You say "power corrupts" but you assume the Emperor was uniquely able to avoid that corrupting influence.

In any case, he kept a *lot* of secrets from Magnus, and the Emperor's jealous hoarding of knowledge ended up biting him in the ass with the heresy.

Hecaton wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:


that's what I thought about in the first place when I heard about that piece of new lore, one that make me ponder, "they just flung the universe's logic out of the window". In the pre greatrift lore I still play in the corrupting influence of knowlegde above is valid. In my view at the beginning this is a huge factor and a big contributor in making the setting miserable, so to an extent participating in giving it its atmosphere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On our topic though you could say people are just too slowed or uninformed to come to the conclusion that this is chaos by themselves but still more influencial figures should I guess.

You misunderstood the lore then. Chaos is not inherently corrupting via knowledge, but people in the setting thought it did, or found it convenient to enforce that idea for self-serving reasons.




You say "power corrupts" but you assume the Emperor was uniquely able to avoid that corrupting influence.

In any case, he kept a *lot* of secrets from Magnus, and the Emperor's jealous hoarding of knowledge ended up biting him in the ass with the heresy.

I could totally have overread this bit that corruption via knowledge is not true, but can you show me where it is stated?

As for the emperor he is not really your average being either so we can grant him that as a viable plot point. I'm not too harsh on that matter.

Given what the Emperor made and his edicts...

Yeah, Emperor is NOT a good person.

Yeah the emperor is not a good person. But could we say he is dumb though?

Stumbled on a reddit (if think it was reddit) saying yes, because of the lorgar and angron cases.

But that'd be a shame if the closest the universe has to a central character was plain dumb.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Yeah the emperor is not a good person. But could we say he is dumb though?

Stumbled on a reddit (if think it was reddit) saying yes, because of the lorgar and angron cases.

But that'd be a shame if the closest the universe has to a central character was plain dumb.

Sometimes malice looks like stupidity from the outside.


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 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:


I could totally have overread this bit that corruption via knowledge is not true, but can you show me where it is stated?

As for the emperor he is not really your average being either so we can grant him that as a viable plot point. I'm not too harsh on that matter.

9e Chaos demons codex, which only states that Grey Knights believe that knowledge of demons is corrupting, not that it actually is.

I mean it depends. The Emperor's decisions should always be contextualised with a few things.

Firstly, his grand scheme was upset by the machinations of those opposed to him both human and non-human in origin. When the Primarchs were scattered he couldn't just sit on Terra and make new ones, he needed to act and recover his assets.
Angron was one of the last additions to the Primarch ranks and the Emperor didn't have the time to deal with conquering (i.e. razing) Nuceria, a civilised world with a martial background. The Emperor needed strong worlds that would be useful to the Crusade, not a devasted planet razed by an angry Primarch. Throw in the fact that Angron was already "damaged goods" and the Emperor just couldn't be bothered with all the fuss. Stick Angron with his Legion and just let him get on with it.

Secondly, the Emperor may be beyond normal human levels of power and abilities but he is still human and as such makes human choices. He's not perfect, and that makes him a more believable character than if he were.
With regard to Lorgar, in the Emperor's experience, people did what he told them. Why would he believe that one of his own sons would ultimately turn against him? He also had twenty other sons to worry about, most of which had their own issues *cough*Curze*cough* and the entire Imperium to run/rule. Mistakes were made but in the context of the Emperor being someone who doesn't get disobeyed and having other more important things to worry about, it makes sense.

okay I so that has to do with me not caring for 9th lore that much then so I overlooked this detail and run on outdated lore. That's fair, I acknowledge it.

One thing that's important to note with the lore is that there's a lot of micro macro variation going on.

The Emperor doesn't care for the individual within his Empire. The individual is a means to an end. His goal is a better life and existence for the entirety of humanity. He's basically playing the long-game at the expense of the here and now and those living under his rule on his way toward his goal.



This attitude filters down into the higher ranks below him and defines a lot of the Imperium's behaviour. Be it working toward a goal or maintaining the status quo.

However this doesn't mean that there is zero care for humans in the setting. Consider the Exterminatus campaign to try and starve a hive fleet. The Imperium CAN and DID do it. However it wasn't without political fallout and eventual branding of the original creator of the plan as heretical.


The Imperium doesn't care about you, but that doesn't mean there are not those within the system who do care. The sheer vastness of the setting however can dilute that down a lot.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
okay I so that has to do with me not caring for 9th lore that much then so I overlooked this detail and run on outdated lore. That's fair, I acknowledge it.

That's Heresy background that's been around for a good while longer than 9th chief. It's fine to admit you don't know stuff but it ain't new by any stretch.

Hecaton wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The Emperor trained his most psychically capable Primarch in all things of the warp and said "Don't make deals with denizens of the warp". What does Magnus do? He makes a deal with a denizen of the warp.

Can you imagine why this guy didn't trust anyone with more information about Chaos than he thinks they are capable of handling? The one guy he thought could handle the truth fell for the very thing he told him to look out for.

Two core guidepost in 40K: Power Corrupts and Knowledge Corrupts.

You say "power corrupts" but you assume the Emperor was uniquely able to avoid that corrupting influence.

In any case, he kept a *lot* of secrets from Magnus, and the Emperor's jealous hoarding of knowledge ended up biting him in the ass with the heresy.

Not at all. The Emperor presumedly started off as a benevolent being who wanted to help humanity. From time to time, we see him interacting with people in such a manner.

But this guy has a plan. It is a good plan. It is the Plan to Save Humanity from the Evils of the Warp. And he will do anything necessary to accomplish this plan. He scoured the Galaxy and the Warp for knowledge. Made deals to attempt to steal power from the most powerful warp entities to create his 20 perfect generals to lead up his plan. He had it all in control, until he didn't. He wasn't as smart or tricky as he thought he was. His perfect plan seriously setback by a giant warp rift that scattered his perfect generals across the Galaxy.

So he pivots. No perfect generals. He has to try and execute his plan with for less perfect and capable Astartes. He has to rush, because the clock is ticking and he is already behind schedule. So he starts to use his blunt instrument instead of his perfect tools. And it progresses until he finds his perfect tools one by one. Each of them less perfect than they were supposed to be. Some are nearly completely broken. But he puts them to work on this plan regardless.

And things do not go smoothly. He lost two of his tools. He had to put down a massive Ork adversary. Head had to discipline his children into being the generals they were supposed to be, unknowingly breaking them in the process. But he KNOWS what he needs to do. He as the POWER to do it. So he rushes on at breakneck speed into disaster.

Nah. This guy isn't immune to the corruption of Knowledge and Power. He has far too much of both and yet is blinded by his own vision as to what is going on around him.

The issue with Lorgar and Angron is that the Emperor still gave them armies. It should have been obvious that both of them were going to betray him eventually. The same goes for the rest of the Traitor Primarchs (with the exception of Horus and Fulgrim) as none of them were particularly stable individuals.

The Emperor should have known that Chaos was going to mess with his plans, yet it seems that he pretty much had no countermeasures.

This aren't the actions of someone that was good at ruling or even planning.

 Tyran wrote:
The issue with Lorgar and Angron is that the Emperor still gave them armies. It should have been obvious that both of them were going to betray him eventually. The same goes for the rest of the Traitor Primarchs (with the exception of Horus and Fulgrim) as none of them were particularly stable individuals.

Angron, yes but there were 19 Legions that could put him down plus the Custodes and the Emperor himself. Angron was a weapon the Emperor needed to complete his vision and a weapon can be discarded at any time.
As for Lorgar, where were the signs that he was a traitor? He actively destroyed the Colchisian Chaos faith before the Emperor arrived and by all means was an exceptionally loyal son, if one that didn't quite understand the whole no religion business. Lorgar fell because the Emperor made a mistake late into the Crusade when his big plans had already been messed with. When the Emperor ordered Monarchia razed he was already thinking about hanging up the sword and moving into his bachelor pad in the Webway. Lorgar doing religion was another headache that needed to be dealt with in a manner the Emperor knew best. Shock and Awe. Didn't end up well but the Emperor was not ineffable.

The Emperor should have known that Chaos was going to mess with his plans, yet it seems that he pretty much had no countermeasures.

Out of curiosity, given that the Emperor believed more knowledge of Chaos would lead to people falling to Chaos, what exactly do you mean by countermeasures? Suicide Squad style bombs in the necks of every Primarch?

I fail to see in which way the Emperor needed Angron as Angron decapitated, decimated and eventually lobotomized the War Hounds-turned-World Eaters.

Angron was nothing more than a murderer, and a particularly imbecile one at that. He was nothing but counterproductive even before the Heresy.

As for countermeasures, maybe something like the Grey Knights. Or he could have inserted his near uncorruptible Custodes into the leadership of the Legions.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
okay I so that has to do with me not caring for 9th lore that much then so I overlooked this detail and run on outdated lore. That's fair, I acknowledge it.

It's not outdated lore; it was never true and was always a misinterpretation of what was going on.

 Tyran wrote:
I fail to see in which way the Emperor needed Angron as Angron decapitated, decimated and eventually lobotomized the War Hounds-turned-World Eaters.

Angron was nothing more than a murderer, and a particularly imbecile one at that. He was nothing but counterproductive even before the Heresy.

Angron and the World Eaters were the weapons the Emperor needed them to be. A blunt force trauma used to absolutely butcher a strong enemy and send a message at the same time. The galaxy had a lot of dangerous things out there like the Rangda and Orks that wouldn't have understood the concept of rational force or acceptable losses and the Emperor needed forces that were the same.
Angron was damaged goods when he was picked up on Nuceria and the Emperor didn't have the time or even the means to fix the damage done. So he made do with the mess he was left with. A broken sword is better than no sword, and the Emperor needed all the swords. Angron and his Legion could be counted on to do one thing, kill. And that is what the Emperor needed above all.
The sad reality of it all is that of all his sons, the Emperor was the most truthful with Angron about both the Emperor's own nature as a tyrant and the role of the Primarchs as a whole. There was no culture or learning to be done, just a gun in Angron's hand and an enemy to point him at.

As for countermeasures, maybe something like the Grey Knights. Or he could have inserted his near uncorruptible Custodes into the leadership of the Legions.

You mean the Grey Knights, the ones he was making in secret on Titan throughout the Heresy when he realised Horus had been corrupted?
Or as already mentioned, the Emperor believed (incorrectly but not the point) that by starving Chaos of worship he could beat it. In the 200 years of the Crusade, there weren't any Daemonic incursions or Legions turning to Chaos (maybe depending on what theories you believe about Primarchs II and XI) so by the Emperor's metric the job was a good 'un. How was he to know that Kor Phaeron, Erebus, and Typhon were all super secret Chaos worshipers? The Emperor needed to have his mind on the bigger picture, the salvation of humanity by removing its reliance on Warp travel by building the Imperial Webway.

 Tyran wrote:
The issue with Lorgar and Angron is that the Emperor still gave them armies. It should have been obvious that both of them were going to betray him eventually. The same goes for the rest of the Traitor Primarchs (with the exception of Horus and Fulgrim) as none of them were particularly stable individuals.

The Emperor should have known that Chaos was going to mess with his plans, yet it seems that he pretty much had no countermeasures.

This aren't the actions of someone that was good at ruling or even planning.

Lorgar was a mistake. The Emperor thought he taught him not to worship gods. Instead, he taught him that I am not a god for you to worship. He didn't see the possibility that Lorgar would go looking for another god. Despite that, he installed a group of Custodes inside of the Word Bearers to ensure the followed his directives. The problem is they were not as good as detecting what Lorgar was up to as they needed to be.

Angron and his legion were a tool. A compromised tool, but a useful one still. There was no danger from that quarter without outside influence. It was the fall of Lorgar and Horus that made Angron dangerous. Your battle hound is not dangerous to you unless the handler turns on you first.

As for countermeasures, the Space Wolves existed for just such problems. They dealt with at least one of the two missing legions. The problem is they can handle only one legion at a time. He did not anticipate half the legions going rogue in an organized rebellion.

 Tyran wrote:
When has Chaos ever said their motivations are good? They are very openly about slavery, rape, baby murdery, spreading disease, standard murdery and dragging reality into the warp.

The IoM is genocidal, fascists and all that, but Chaos characters are former Imperials that found standard genocide boring and standard fascism lukewarm and decided to find something worse.

Blood Gorgons are pretty nice and Blood Pact are also highly organized for traitor guard (though I don't imagine they're to nice being devoted to the Blood God and all that). I've also heard that the Lords of Silence are like one, big "Nurglite" family.

The Red Corsairs are also pretty based and probably wouldn't be opposed to people joining their warband, as long as they swore fealty to Huron. Night Lords also make use of other members from other chapters within the Imperium, so not everyone of the warbands are gonna kill ya on sight. Just most of them will. Hell, Night Lords get overly protective of their slaves and get pissed when anyone mistreats their property.

The Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, and Black Legion are the ones who huff copium and say that they're actually "the good guys" while kicking a puppy. Everyone else is aware that they are damned (for the most part). It's really those three that try and bend the rules out of a sense of self-righteousness.

 Abanshee wrote:
The Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, and Black Legion are the ones who huff copium and say that they're actually "the good guys" while kicking a puppy. Everyone else is aware that they are damned (for the most part). It's really those three that try and bend the rules out of a sense of self-righteousness.

How are they "damned"? That concept is only meaningful in a context where there is an objectively correct divine being. And 40k doesn't have that.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Given what the Emperor made and his edicts...

Yeah, Emperor is NOT a good person.

Eh, I mean he's a flawed person. Yes. However, I don't really see him one way or the other. I just see him as a guy, who became a god and a workaholic that neglected spending time with his sons, which bit him in the ass at the end of the day. People are quick to judge the Emperor on his actions and I can see why. He's the primary deity-figure in the setting and most of the problems in the modern setting are either directly or indirectly caused by him. It's a little more nuanced than, "he's evil".

However, consider this. By the time of the heresy, his sons are all grown up, capable of making decisions for themselves, and are slowly wrapping up the Great Crusade. Unfortunately, you got a couple (Konrad) of (Lorgar) problems (Angron). Horus, is starting to buckle under the weight of the task you've given him, but you're so damn close to finishing your science project that'll supposedly help us, so no time to spare. Now do this eighteen more times and you get the heresy. He was a neglectful father that genuinely (Horus) loved (Sanguinius) some (Dorn) of his sons, but fell on his face due to outright ignoring most of them. He played favorites way too much, made his sons doubt him, and now he has too watch forever as his one dream is slowly torn asunder by his own people.

That's why I like the Emperor. I can totally get the feeling of being strapped to a chair, helpless to do anything, and watching everything you love burn, slowly.


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Hecaton wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
The Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, and Black Legion are the ones who huff copium and say that they're actually "the good guys" while kicking a puppy. Everyone else is aware that they are damned (for the most part). It's really those three that try and bend the rules out of a sense of self-righteousness.

How are they "damned"? That concept is only meaningful in a context where there is an objectively correct divine being. And 40k doesn't have that.

Damned as in they're all slowly dying out (sure they can replace losses, but the legion culture will also degrade over time into a shadow of it's former self), there only solace in life is war/death, and they can never turn back on any of their actions. So, yes they're damned to an eternity of torture and carnage by the Emperor's decree. Basically, if your living in a demonic hole in reality, things probably aren't all that spiffy for your living situation. Chaos is a death sentence, literally, metaphorically, and figuratively speaking.

The Eye of Terror is fighting wars against itself and the Emperor's forces almost 24/7 for no reason other than "for the dark gods, my man".

You could also say that they're damned since they're all literal shadows of the great legions they used to be or even worse in the World Eaters/Thousand Sons case.

 Abanshee wrote:
and now he has too watch forever as his one dream is slowly torn asunder by his own people.

Yeah, that "dream" of exterminating all non-human life in the galaxy along with any human civilizations that refuse to submit to his rule. The Emperor is just as much of a bad guy as any other faction's leaders.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
and now he has too watch forever as his one dream is slowly torn asunder by his own people.

Yeah, that "dream" of exterminating all non-human life in the galaxy along with any human civilizations that refuse to submit to his rule. The Emperor is just as much of a bad guy as any other faction's leaders.

Yeah, that one. Particularly the one where planets don't get WAAAGH'd on a daily basis by uncle-mushroom man and his jolly gang of green men. Or annihilated by Eldar for "being in the way or because they'd potentially be a problem later". Or they get turned into puppets by Enslavers. Or where they don't get infested by Hrud. Or get enslaved by the Rangda or whatever else they have in store for you. The one not constantly rife with civil wars and planetary uprisings thinking they can do better than a galaxy-spanning empire.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Emperor wanted to work with the Eldar, but in general treacherous nature doesn't leave way for much negotiation. I mean are you going to negotiate with the guy who just blew up one of your world's because, "he saw in some dream that this world would be a threat later" or powerfist him in the face. I'm choosing powerfist. The Eldar need to stop being arrogant dickheads if they want to open up any room for negotiation first.

So, in short. Yeah, he murders aliens, especially the ones that are downright evil and just wanna cause suffering to his Imperium. I mean Peter fething Turbo prematurely-aged just from fighting the Rangda and he's a primarch.

You free to see him as the bad guy. He does a lot evil gak, like neglecting his kids and banning psykers within his empire. However, it's because of purpose or reason. Doesn't justify it for sure, but it is sure as hell a lot more credible than "Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne". The emperor is a utilitarian on steroids. If you no longer serve a purpose or get in his way, the obvious answer to him is, "oh just remove the problem". It's his whole, MO.

It's just how he goes about doing that is utterly inhumane, but at the end of the day; he's also a human to a degree. You can't simply paint any one man as just "evil", just like every Eldar isn't evil for their shenanigans. They all have incredibly evil actions that you can understand them undertaking within the bounds of the setting.

 Abanshee wrote:
Yeah, that one. Particularly the one where planets don't get WAAAGH'd on a daily basis by uncle-mushroom man and his jolly gang of green men. Or annihilated by Eldar for "being in the way or because they'd potentially be a problem later". Or they get turned into puppets by Enslavers. Or where they don't get infested by Hrud. Or get enslaved by the Rangda or whatever else they have in store for you. The one not constantly rife with civil wars and planetary uprisings thinking they can do better than a galaxy-spanning empire.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Emperor wanted to work with the Eldar, but in general treacherous nature doesn't leave way for much negotiation. I mean are you going to negotiate with the guy who just blew up one of your world's because, "he saw in some dream that this world would be a threat later" or powerfist him in the face. I'm choosing powerfist. The Eldar need to stop being arrogant dickheads if they want to open up any room for negotiation first.

So, in short. Yeah, he murders aliens, especially the ones that are downright evil and just wanna cause suffering to his Imperium. I mean Peter fething Turbo prematurely-aged just from fighting the Rangda and he's a primarch.

The problem is that he makes no determination between aliens that are intrinsically harmful (orks etc) and those that aren't. The CWE's penchant for working against the Imperium at times has a lot to do with the Imperium's willingness to genocide innocent xenos, Eldar included. The present-day Imperium is gleefully ignorant of the distinction as well, following his example. Portraying the emperor as justified in his genocidal ambitions is very questionable; your "pretty sure" amounts to "I want the emperor to be justified so I'm making up a situation that justifies him" and doesn't have a basis in the source material.

 Abanshee wrote:
You free to see him as the bad guy. He does a lot evil gak, like neglecting his kids and banning psykers within his empire. However, it's because of purpose or reason. Doesn't justify it for sure, but it is sure as hell a lot more credible than "Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne". The emperor is a utilitarian on steroids. If you no longer serve a purpose or get in his way, the obvious answer to him is, "oh just remove the problem". It's his whole, MO.

The Emperor is not a utilitarian; his treatment of Angron, for example, caused his endeavors great problems, but he was compelled to act like a dick... because he's a dick. There isn't a core purpose or reason behind what he does that has a benign motive. It's just a matter of the tendency for people, especially people with certain personality traits, to ascribe benevolent motives to people with power, even in fiction.

 Abanshee wrote:
It's just how he goes about doing that is utterly inhumane, but at the end of the day; he's also a human to a degree. You can't simply paint any one man as just "evil", just like every Eldar isn't evil for their shenanigans. They all have incredibly evil actions that you can understand them undertaking within the bounds of the setting.

Hold up, in this same post you justified the genocide of the Eldar. And now you're claiming that you can't treat all Eldar as "evil"? What are you getting at?

Hecaton wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
Yeah, that one. Particularly the one where planets don't get WAAAGH'd on a daily basis by uncle-mushroom man and his jolly gang of green men. Or annihilated by Eldar for "being in the way or because they'd potentially be a problem later". Or they get turned into puppets by Enslavers. Or where they don't get infested by Hrud. Or get enslaved by the Rangda or whatever else they have in store for you. The one not constantly rife with civil wars and planetary uprisings thinking they can do better than a galaxy-spanning empire.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Emperor wanted to work with the Eldar, but in general treacherous nature doesn't leave way for much negotiation. I mean are you going to negotiate with the guy who just blew up one of your world's because, "he saw in some dream that this world would be a threat later" or powerfist him in the face. I'm choosing powerfist. The Eldar need to stop being arrogant dickheads if they want to open up any room for negotiation first.

So, in short. Yeah, he murders aliens, especially the ones that are downright evil and just wanna cause suffering to his Imperium. I mean Peter fething Turbo prematurely-aged just from fighting the Rangda and he's a primarch.

The problem is that he makes no determination between aliens that are intrinsically harmful (orks etc) and those that aren't. The CWE's penchant for working against the Imperium at times has a lot to do with the Imperium's willingness to genocide innocent xenos, Eldar included. The present-day Imperium is gleefully ignorant of the distinction as well, following his example. Portraying the emperor as justified in his genocidal ambitions is very questionable; your "pretty sure" amounts to "I want the emperor to be justified so I'm making up a situation that justifies him" and doesn't have a basis in the source material.

 Abanshee wrote:
You free to see him as the bad guy. He does a lot evil gak, like neglecting his kids and banning psykers within his empire. However, it's because of purpose or reason. Doesn't justify it for sure, but it is sure as hell a lot more credible than "Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne". The emperor is a utilitarian on steroids. If you no longer serve a purpose or get in his way, the obvious answer to him is, "oh just remove the problem". It's his whole, MO.

The Emperor is not a utilitarian; his treatment of Angron, for example, caused his endeavors great problems, but he was compelled to act like a dick... because he's a dick. There isn't a core purpose or reason behind what he does that has a benign motive. It's just a matter of the tendency for people, especially people with certain personality traits, to ascribe benevolent motives to people with power, even in fiction.

 Abanshee wrote:
It's just how he goes about doing that is utterly inhumane, but at the end of the day; he's also a human to a degree. You can't simply paint any one man as just "evil", just like every Eldar isn't evil for their shenanigans. They all have incredibly evil actions that you can understand them undertaking within the bounds of the setting.

Hold up, in this same post you justified the genocide of the Eldar. And now you're claiming that you can't treat all Eldar as "evil"? What are you getting at?

Bro, that's because almost every alien species is hostile to humans. So, of course there isn't a set distinction when they're killing you all the time, I'd be surprised if he had the time even make one. Also, I really don't care if you find a view I have on a fictional character "questionable". Within the reasoning of the fictional universe it makes plenty of sense to me, when did this become a conversation about our personal morality? My "pretty sure" comes from the fact we don't have a lot of events that happen between the Imperium and CWE during 30k and that modern day humanity (M41) has worked with Eldar already. It's an educated guess.

As, for Angron. I mean what the hell are you supposed to do with that? Other than lock him away or kill him for good. Angron was on borrowed time from the time he left Nuceria anyways (Butcher's nails slowly killing him). I don't think he was trying to go out of his way to be a dick, he just simply didn't even consider Angron in his greater plan. The Emperor didn't do that out of malevolence, he simply doesn't consider things like that. He's very, very single-minded in his goals. Even when it will
shoot him in the foot later.

I'm saying that everything has nuance essentially, you can't simply ascribe a person as evil just on action alone, you have to take into account intent, circumstances, and the history surrounding everyone in this setting. These characters within the bounds of their universe are completely justified in I'd say half of what they do. The rest is bs reasoning, atrocities, and wars fed by lies. To simply label any one thing as good or evil in this setting shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how it works itself. I completely understand why humanity would annihilate the Eldar, especially when they attack you for almost no reason at all (or what a human would attribute as no reason). It's an unfortunate downside of attacking humanity, your entire race is getting the sword (That includes Dark Eldar, Harlequins, and Exodites too). You can understand the reasoning behind an action, but also not agree with it.

 Abanshee wrote:


Bro, that's because almost every alien species is hostile to humans.

You have the cause and effect wrong. Almost every alien species is hostile to humans because the humans are fething nuts. You can go read the material on the Tau if you want to see how a new player on the scene learns very quickly that the Imperium is senselessly genocidal and untrustworthy.

 Abanshee wrote:
Also, I really don't care if you find a view I have on a fictional character "questionable". Within the reasoning of the fictional universe it makes plenty of sense to me, when did this become a conversation about our personal morality?

When you started putting your own moral reasoning front and center. Weird how the Tau can exist just fine without genociding members of other species just for existing.

 Abanshee wrote:
My "pretty sure" comes from the fact we don't have a lot of events that happen between the Imperium and CWE during 30k and that modern day humanity (M41) has worked with Eldar already. It's an educated guess.

Nah, we know even the *Necrons* thought he was an donkey-cave - and they're jerks. Assuming stuff that happened off camera to make him look better is weird.

 Abanshee wrote:

As, for Angron. I mean what the hell are you supposed to do with that? Other than lock him away or kill him for good. Angron was on borrowed time from the time he left Nuceria anyways (Butcher's nails slowly killing him). I don't think he was trying to go out of his way to be a dick, he just simply didn't even consider Angron in his greater plan. The Emperor didn't do that out of malevolence, he simply doesn't consider things like that. He's very, very single-minded in his goals. Even when it will
shoot him in the foot later.

Nah, I'm talking about the part where he didn't let Angron die with his companions, didn't help him defeat the slavers on Nuceria, and instead allied himself with the depraved slave-holding government of the planet. He was cruel and immoral the whole time and expected the veneration due a father for his actions; that's just egomania by any metric. Saying that "he simply doesn't consider things like that," as you do, is just admitting that the Emperor has gak morals.

 Abanshee wrote:
I'm saying that everything has nuance essentially, you can't simply ascribe a person as evil just on action alone, you have to take into account intent, circumstances, and the history surrounding everyone in this setting. These characters within the bounds of their universe are completely justified in I'd say half of what they do. The rest is bs reasoning, atrocities, and wars fed by lies. To simply label any one thing as good or evil in this setting shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how it works itself. I completely understand why humanity would annihilate the Eldar, especially when they attack you for almost no reason at all (or what a human would attribute as no reason). It's an unfortunate downside of attacking humanity, your entire race is getting the sword (That includes Dark Eldar, Harlequins, and Exodites too). You can understand the reasoning behind an action, but also not agree with it.

That doesn't work, because by the same logic everyone else is morally justified in annihilating humanity. Two groups being morally justified in annihilating each other is not exactly a cogent moral stance.

And no, there's nothing wrong with casting moral judgment on characters or elements within the setting.

 Abanshee wrote:
You free to see him as the bad guy.

Because he is. This is a core point of the setting. Seriously, your apologism for the genocidal hyper-fascist theocracy is getting kind of disturbing.

However thinking about it knowledge of chaos still must probably does corrupt in a logical and normal fashion because if you hear about something that may make you king of your world and are a peasant chances are you'll take it, plus the corrupting influence of tainted object through magic/possession. The knowledge itself does not corrupt outirght but the magic of the object you use to gain said knowledge can.

So I'll mitigate my view a bit as knowledge is then stated not to have outright corrupting abilities by itself, but still, almost mechanically, chaos corruption will probably corrupt anyway.

In which case, suppressing knowledge of chaos makes sense. But it is an ideology driven suboptimal way of of doing it with horrific results in the end.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
However thinking about it knowledge of chaos still must probably does corrupt in a logical and normal fashion because if you hear about something that may make you king of your world and are a peasant chances are you'll take it, plus the corrupting influence of tainted object through magic/possession. The knowledge itself does not corrupt outirght but the magic of the object you use to gain said knowledge can.

So I'll mitigate my view a bit as knowledge is then stated not to have outright corrupting abilities by itself, but still, almost mechanically, chaos corruption will probably corrupt anyway.

In which case, suppressing knowledge of chaos makes sense. But it is an ideology driven suboptimal way of of doing it with horrific results in the end.

No, the smart way to deal with it is to tell everyone about Chaos, show them the consequences of interacting with the warp without proper precautions, and warn them about the dangers. That seems to work; the shamanic traditions of Fenris and Chogoris, as well as the traditions of the Exodites, seem to function well enough.

"Tainted objects" are a whole different sort of thing. I think the issue is the emperor didn't want to have to explain how Chaos feeds off of negative emotions, because then he'd be stuck having to justify all the genocide and tyranny when it just makes Chaos stronger, and he seemed to treat genocide and tyranny as categorical imperatives.

It ay be smarter but as we stated the imperium is paralysed with fear and wrong belief, so as far as the setting goes, which is what we discuss, their behavior is not the best choice but it fits its context.

Knowing how bad the warp is is no defense in and of itself, inquisitors who fall know many things and still can fall. Don't forget chaos entities are smart and subtle and can even corrupt strong willed humans by luring them while they don't even realise it. So saying telling every one is the solution is not so obvious.

People would want to know more. They'd want to see if the claims are right. If they aren't stronger than those who failed and master this force. That's a leap of logic we can make for human characters assuming they are quite still like us. It could totally go wrong.

Don't get me wrong, alternate or further scenarios to think about the lore is absolutly fine, but as it is a fictional setting we can't know for sure, only make leaps of logic from what is written at the moment.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
You free to see him as the bad guy.

Because he is. This is a core point of the setting. Seriously, your apologism for the genocidal hyper-fascist theocracy is getting kind of disturbing.

Apologism? You mean my like of the character is disturbing? Am I on trial, Inquisitor?

 Abanshee wrote:
Apologism? You mean my like of the character is disturbing? Am I on trial, Inquisitor?

Apologism, as in defending the Imperium's genocides because "those Eldar children might grow up to be enemies someday".

Hecaton wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:


Bro, that's because almost every alien species is hostile to humans.

You have the cause and effect wrong. Almost every alien species is hostile to humans because the humans are fething nuts. You can go read the material on the Tau if you want to see how a new player on the scene learns very quickly that the Imperium is senselessly genocidal and untrustworthy.

Take a drink every time someone assumes you haven't read something. I'd be suffering from liver failure, lol!


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 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
Apologism? You mean my like of the character is disturbing? Am I on trial, Inquisitor?

Apologism, as in defending the Imperium's genocides because "those Eldar children might grow up to be enemies someday".

Bro, you just let me know you didn't even read what I typed.


Whatever, it's been a really productive discussion, but this conversation is going absolutely nowhere.


So, you have a nice rest of the night, pal!

 Abanshee wrote:
Bro, you just let me know you didn't even read what I typed.

I completely understand why humanity would annihilate the Eldar
-You

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
Bro, you just let me know you didn't even read what I typed.

I completely understand why humanity would annihilate the Eldar
-You

I would too. The Eldar are the reason slaneesh exists. Imagine trying to be friends with the Eldar and then some Farseer has a cryptic vision that causes them to kill an entire planet of yours to stop some unprovable event from happening to them at some point in the future. They dont bother to tell you because they "know better" and see you as lesser (despite your empire utterly mogging theirs) or even if they do tell you, how do you allow that? Why should an extremely self serving race like this be left alone? Even if morally it doesnt sit well, strategically it seems the right move. Slaughter all of them until they aren't a problem anymore. Another issue is that, partially due to their own stupidity, they are going extinct and care very much about avoiding that fate. Which is fine, but if they perceive or "predict" that you might get in the way of that, or your future bloodline, they could turn into a big problem.

It's just not a friendship worth having. People who think they can see the future and correct it in their favour as if it's the present will just get you in all sorts of trouble. To put this into a real life goofy hypothetical, imagine if the state of New Zealand killed via espionage James cameron because some psychic (or whoever) saw a future where a movie of his influenced a radical terrorist group 700 years from now. What should the USA do? Then it just keeps happening. Surely at some point you gotta put us down haha. Or try...

Swastakowey wrote:
What should the USA do?

I'm pretty sure the answer would not be "kill everyone in New Zealand, including small children just to be sure."

Removed - please don't derail the topic.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
What should the USA do?

I'm pretty sure the answer would not be "kill everyone in New Zealand, including small children just to be sure."

Just some of them im sure, which is somehow ok.

Plus then you got all the other wack jobs accosting you like orks, nids, necrons etc etc and maybe you'd start being a bit less high and mighty about the limit of your killing in retaliation.

I'm not gonna slip into this paricular point of the discussion because I couldn't read what abanshee wrote so I don't know but hm well. Just amazed at how far it all got wrong.

Swastakowey wrote:
Just some of them im sure, which is somehow ok.

Plus then you got all the other wack jobs accosting you like orks, nids, necrons etc etc and maybe you'd start being a bit less high and mighty about the limit of your killing in retaliation.

Are we seriously going to go with "genocide is justified as long as you feel sufficiently attacked"?

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Just some of them im sure, which is somehow ok.

Plus then you got all the other wack jobs accosting you like orks, nids, necrons etc etc and maybe you'd start being a bit less high and mighty about the limit of your killing in retaliation.

Are we seriously going to go with "genocide is justified as long as you feel sufficiently attacked"?

Is there a point where it's justified for you? Lets say hypothetically your acceptable collateral damage is done and they still refuse. Do you collateral them until they stop or are gone? Remember leaving them alone without them stopping means the retaliation for future crimes continue...

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
What should the USA do?

I'm pretty sure the answer would not be "kill everyone in New Zealand, including small children just to be sure."

Correct.


However as a species we are basically responsible right now, this very day, for a level of non-human species extinction that, as far as we know, is basically only rivalled by historical events such as the extinction of the dinosaurs.
Both by deliberate action and accidental. We even do it to species that we are utilizing as a resource; where we directly benefit from the species being around we are more than capable of driving it to extinction for short term gains.

Eldar are fully external to humanity and the Imperium is at its core utterly cowardly and fearful. This is based upon historic events where things like AI and Xenos have risen up and threatened the entirety of the Imperium. The Imperium's reaction when something threatens it is to obliterate it entirely. They don't worry about retaining or utilization, they only focus on the simple "kill them all" message and approach. Even though when you zoom in you will have Inquisitors working with Xenos; you will have AI appearing here and there in some form in machinery; you will have Rogue Traders establishing trade with Xenos; even planetary Governors will trade in Xenotech and the like. The Imperial stance and message is not perfectly carried across the Imperium, its enforcement varies a lot and many in the Imperium clearly DON'T want to genocide the Eldar or other Xenos.

Heck the Emperor only lives thanks to the hand of the Xenos.



The Imperium could change, but its like an oil-tanker. It's sheer vastness and momentum means its insanely slow to change. This isn't helped by the fact that many of its ruling classes extend their lives though various means which ensures that their viewpoint and policies remains strong for generation after generation - influences and raises them which reinforces certain viewpoints to an insane degree.

Swastakowey wrote:
Is there a point where it's justified for you? Lets say hypothetically your acceptable collateral damage is done and they still refuse. Do you collateral them until they stop or are gone? Remember leaving them alone without them stopping means the retaliation for future crimes continue...

Here's an idea: you destroy the military targets and remove their ability to fight wars, you don't kill innocent children just because "they might be enemies someday".

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Yeah yeah hyperbole and all that but still seems to me like knowingly tossing that after testing it and seeing the results was quite close. But yeah, minimum 150 000 to 250 000 not counting the consequences of irradiation is okay.

The conventional bombing of Tokyo killed more civilians than either nuclear attack, and, once again: we don't do that anymore. I'm not sure why you think pointing out past atrocities somehow justifies anything here. The civilized world has decided that the bombing strategy of WWII is not morally acceptable and bringing it up has no purpose other than trying to deflect the conversation into a debate on how evil the US is.

Is that topic really becoming a full dumpster fire where people fight over what's a good way to massively annihilate people? I'm out.

So you drop your absurd argument about "WHAT ABOUT US NUKES" and then run when you get called on how absurd it is?

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Is there a point where it's justified for you? Lets say hypothetically your acceptable collateral damage is done and they still refuse. Do you collateral them until they stop or are gone? Remember leaving them alone without them stopping means the retaliation for future crimes continue...

Here's an idea: you destroy the military targets and remove their ability to fight wars, you don't kill innocent children just because "they might be enemies someday".

I'd argue your opinion would prove incredibly unpopular and unwise given the tendencies of most aliens and entities in this universe. It would also be a huge drain on resources and time which could be better used to fight on all the other fronts. I'd go as far to say that this approach to aliens in 40k would be a losing one. Of course im sure you make an exception to your morals for orks or demons but id extend it to eldar personally. At least id be fighting a war of existence until my existence is secured, if that means the eldar are no more, then all their weirdness like creating chaos gods or fething with you for future crimes are now gone. Arguably my sense of justice, which is killing them before they can kill me is simply the exact thing they do, the imperium is just better at doing it full scale than they are. Which is their fault entirely.

 Abanshee wrote:
Justifies real world atrocities, yet finds it disturbing when you like funny golden space wizard man that shoots elves and stabs orks. Hmmm....

I didn't justify anything. I clearly referred to the indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets in WWII as "horror". Please do not be dishonest.


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Swastakowey wrote:
I'd argue your opinion would prove incredibly unpopular and unwise given the tendencies of most aliens and entities in this universe. It would also be a huge drain on resources and time which could be better used to fight on all the other fronts. I'd go as far to say that this approach to aliens in 40k would be a losing one. Of course im sure you make an exception to your morals for orks or demons but id extend it to eldar personally. At least id be fighting a war of existence until my existence is secured, if that means the eldar are no more, then all their weirdness like creating chaos gods or fething with you for future crimes are now gone. Arguably my sense of justice, which is killing them before they can kill me is simply the exact thing they do, the imperium is just better at doing it full scale than they are. Which is their fault entirely.

So now we're back to justifying mass murder of innocent children because they might someday grow up to be a threat.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
Justifies real world atrocities, yet finds it disturbing when you like funny golden space wizard man that shoots elves and stabs orks. Hmmm....

I didn't justify anything. I clearly referred to the indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets in WWII as "horror". Please do not be dishonest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:
I'd argue your opinion would prove incredibly unpopular and unwise given the tendencies of most aliens and entities in this universe. It would also be a huge drain on resources and time which could be better used to fight on all the other fronts. I'd go as far to say that this approach to aliens in 40k would be a losing one. Of course im sure you make an exception to your morals for orks or demons but id extend it to eldar personally. At least id be fighting a war of existence until my existence is secured, if that means the eldar are no more, then all their weirdness like creating chaos gods or fething with you for future crimes are now gone. Arguably my sense of justice, which is killing them before they can kill me is simply the exact thing they do, the imperium is just better at doing it full scale than they are. Which is their fault entirely.

So now we're back to justifying mass murder of innocent children because they might someday grow up to be a threat.

Is that not what the Eldar do to the Imperium all the time? Tell me again why its wise to not remove them? Or will you simply reeducate them somehow? That probably wont stop their hallucinations which they take seriously enough to kill your kids and planets either.

Swastakowey wrote:
Is that not what the Eldar do to the Imperium all the time? Tell me again why its wise to not remove them? Or will you simply reeducate them somehow? That probably wont stop their hallucinations which they take seriously enough to kill your kids and planets either.

And guess what: Eldar are evil. Nobody AFAIK is disputing this fact, and "the other side is bad too" does not excuse genocide.

Quote me saying that it justifies any atrocity.

Second, 80 000-130 000 estimated deaths for Tokyo < circa 150 000 lowest estimate. Wiki-ed it.

Third of all, you're missing my point, which was to show this conversation about killing not killing is makes no sense and that it is not a question of how many, it is a question that you kill the innocent in the first place.This debate makes no sense and is not the point, which is to discuss the lore.

Fourth, quote where I said "let's discuss US foreign politics at large"? Quote.

You rethoric literally leans towards it's alright to kill unless genocide. You may have poorly expressed yourself, in which case you may acknowledge it and reformulate your point, instead of getting aggressive.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Is that not what the Eldar do to the Imperium all the time? Tell me again why its wise to not remove them? Or will you simply reeducate them somehow? That probably wont stop their hallucinations which they take seriously enough to kill your kids and planets either.

And guess what: Eldar are evil. Nobody AFAIK is disputing this fact, and "the other side is bad too" does not excuse genocide.

Ah... yeah it can? What about orks for example? Where do you stop with these creatures? Do you just allow a never ending war so as to not fully eliminate these creatures? Are you willing to send off your own sons, your neighbours sons etc etc to fight and die in this never ending "just enough" war against these creatures because genocide is just a bit too much for you? Unless you have some workable real solution, your idea is frankly just stupidity.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
You rethoric literally leans towards it's alright to kill unless genocide.

I said no such thing. You've just made up some weird tangent about US history and built a straw man to attack. Do not do this.


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Swastakowey wrote:
Ah... yeah it can? What about orks for example? Where do you stop with these creatures? Do you just allow a never ending war so as to not fully eliminate these creatures? Are you willing to send off your own sons, your neighbours sons etc etc to fight and die in this never ending "just enough" war against these creatures because genocide is just a bit too much for you? Unless you have some workable real solution, your idea is frankly just stupidity.

Now where have I heard this argument made before?

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
You rethoric literally leans towards it's alright to kill unless genocide.

I said no such thing. You've just made up some weird tangent about US history and built a straw man to attack. Do not do this.

You actually have said just that over the course of this discussion. When pressed as to what level of killing is ok (even in 40k) you pretty much say "not genocide".


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 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
You rethoric literally leans towards it's alright to kill unless genocide.

I said no such thing. You've just made up some weird tangent about US history and built a straw man to attack. Do not do this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:
Ah... yeah it can? What about orks for example? Where do you stop with these creatures? Do you just allow a never ending war so as to not fully eliminate these creatures? Are you willing to send off your own sons, your neighbours sons etc etc to fight and die in this never ending "just enough" war against these creatures because genocide is just a bit too much for you? Unless you have some workable real solution, your idea is frankly just stupidity.

Now where have I heard this argument made before?

Whats your solution? Just criticize the people dealing with literal demons and orks etc while they struggle to find a solution on your behalf? Tell me why it isn't ok to genocide the Eldar, Orcs or Necrons...

Swastakowey wrote:
You actually have said just that over the course of this discussion. When pressed as to what level of killing is ok (even in 40k) you pretty much say "not genocide".

I said no such thing. Stop lying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:
Whats your solution? Just criticize the people dealing with literal demons and orks etc while they struggle to find a solution on your behalf? Tell me why it isn't ok to genocide the Eldar, Orcs or Necrons...

Because genocide is bad. FFS why is this so complicated?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seriously, this thread is why GW has to make official statements saying "everyone in this setting is evil stop defending them".

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
You actually have said just that over the course of this discussion. When pressed as to what level of killing is ok (even in 40k) you pretty much say "not genocide".

I said no such thing. Stop lying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:
Whats your solution? Just criticize the people dealing with literal demons and orks etc while they struggle to find a solution on your behalf? Tell me why it isn't ok to genocide the Eldar, Orcs or Necrons...

Because genocide is bad. FFS why is this so complicated?

Because it actually is complicated? Again if it's so simple, please oh wise moralist, tell me your solution to the orc problem? Third time asking...

Swastakowey wrote:
Because it actually is complicated? Again if it's so simple, please oh wise moralist, tell me your solution to the orc problem? Third time asking...

Destroy military targets and remove their ability to fight wars, as I have already said. Stop making up excuses for why genocide is justified.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Is there a point where it's justified for you? Lets say hypothetically your acceptable collateral damage is done and they still refuse. Do you collateral them until they stop or are gone? Remember leaving them alone without them stopping means the retaliation for future crimes continue...

Here's an idea: you destroy the military targets and remove their ability to fight wars, you don't kill innocent children just because "they might be enemies someday".

Now, apply that logic to a psychic race of beings that literally calls you monkeys and would gladly see a billion of your kind die if it meant saving just one of their own. Also, a race that attacks you on the regular due to...prophecy...or divination, lol.

Yeah, probably not going to want to let a single one of those guys survive. Especially, when they've actively broken diplomacy with you before and helped birth a demonic god/goddess of sensation, excess, and debauchery into existence.

I mean what do you do with a species like say, the Dark Eldar? Do you just let them all live? Pray to Big E, they won't go back to murdering, torturing, and raping every being in existence to stave off Slaanesh? No, because the Dark Eldar and their entire society actively benefits from the suffering of others and without that, they die. There are only two options of the table other than: hope that they change or annihilate them because they never will.

LEANS. That's not my native langage ok but I'm pretty sure in this context it means "gives the impression of, tends to a certain direction".

So my point still stands that the way you defended yourself is LEANING towards expressing such ideas as some killing is alright. If it is not what you meant, you may simply stop being rude and say "yeah, that's not what I meant", reformulate so we better understand you and it'll all be fine.

I could have taken many other exemples than US nuclear bombing if that bugs you that much for some reason.

 Abanshee wrote:
Yeah, probably not going to want to let a single one of those guys survive.

And here we are, back to "kill innocent children because they might grow up to be enemies someday."

 Abanshee wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Is there a point where it's justified for you? Lets say hypothetically your acceptable collateral damage is done and they still refuse. Do you collateral them until they stop or are gone? Remember leaving them alone without them stopping means the retaliation for future crimes continue...

Here's an idea: you destroy the military targets and remove their ability to fight wars, you don't kill innocent children just because "they might be enemies someday".

Now, apply that logic to a psychic race of beings that literally calls you monkeys and would gladly see a billion of your kind die if it meant saving just one of their own. Also, a race that attacks you on the regular due to...prophecy...or divination, lol.

Yeah, probably not going to want to let a single one of those guys survive. Especially, when they've actively broken diplomacy with you before and helped birth a demonic god/goddess of sensation, excess, and debauchery into existence.

I mean what do you do with a species like say, the Dark Eldar? Do you just let them all live? Pray to Big E, they won't go back to murdering, torturing, and raping every being in existence to stave off Slaanesh? No, because the Dark Eldar and their entire society actively benefits from the suffering of others and without that, they die. There are only two options of the table other than: hope that they change or annihilate them because they never will.

I already asked him these "simple questions" which are beneath him to answer apparently, because he has discovered something many philosophers have failed to see. That genocide is bad and it's that simple haha. Who cares what the problem is? Just kill until it might look like you'll genocide them and stop. What happens next? Who knows, we didnt genocide so we dont have to worry. Maybe after the loss of 147 generations of men will he consider maybe just eliminating them might be for the better.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
If it is not what you meant, you may simply stop being rude and say "yeah, that's not what I meant", reformulate so we better understand you and it'll all be fine.

Or you can read what I actually said and stop making assumptions and/or straw man arguments.

I could have taken many other exemples than US nuclear bombing if that bugs you that much for some reason.

And they would all be equally irrelevant. Past atrocities do not justify future ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:
I already asked him these "simple questions" which are beneath him to answer apparently, because he has discovered something many philosophers have failed to see. That genocide is bad and it's that simple haha. Who cares what the problem is? Just kill until it might look like you'll genocide them and stop. What happens next? Who knows, we didnt genocide so we dont have to worry. Maybe after the loss of 147 generations of men will he consider maybe just eliminating them might be for the better.

Ah yes, the compelling philosophical argument that mass murder of innocents is fine as long as the alternative is inconvenient. Where have I heard that one before?

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
If it is not what you meant, you may simply stop being rude and say "yeah, that's not what I meant", reformulate so we better understand you and it'll all be fine.

Or you can read what I actually said and stop making assumptions and/or straw man arguments.

I could have taken many other exemples than US nuclear bombing if that bugs you that much for some reason.

And they would all be equally irrelevant. Past atrocities do not justify future ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:
I already asked him these "simple questions" which are beneath him to answer apparently, because he has discovered something many philosophers have failed to see. That genocide is bad and it's that simple haha. Who cares what the problem is? Just kill until it might look like you'll genocide them and stop. What happens next? Who knows, we didnt genocide so we dont have to worry. Maybe after the loss of 147 generations of men will he consider maybe just eliminating them might be for the better.

Ah yes, the compelling philosophical argument that mass murder of innocents is fine as long as the alternative is inconvenient.

I hope you're the first to line up and serve in the meatgrinder to fight the eternally crusading aliens of 40k. Afterall, dying as your father did, and your son will and every one after for all of eternity is a small price to pay to not be called a genocidal person hahaha. Good luck selling that mindset to people with a real threat in front of them... like Orks.

Please use your wisdom, and explain to me how a dark eldar or an orc is "innocent"?

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
LEANS. That's not my native langage ok but I'm pretty sure in this context it means "gives the impression of, tends to a certain direction".

So my point still stands that the way you defended yourself is LEANING towards expressing such ideas as some killing is alright. If it is not what you meant, you may simply stop being rude and say "yeah, that's not what I meant", reformulate so we better understand you and it'll all be fine.

I could have taken many other exemples than US nuclear bombing if that bugs you that much for some reason.

Bingo, my point exactly.

Swastakowey wrote:
Please use your wisdom, and explain to me how a dark eldar or an orc is "innocent"?

"Children aren't innocent because I think they'll grow up to be an enemy" is not an acceptable justification for genocide.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Please use your wisdom, and explain to me how a dark eldar or an orc is "innocent"?

"Children aren't innocent because I think they'll grow up to be an enemy" is not an acceptable justification for genocide.

So your solution to orks fungus growing in your basement, is wait for them to grow up and destroy your house and family before dealing with it?

I'll try one more method to reaching your impenetrable opinions. Can you think of any scenario, real or fictional, in which your no genocide rule may not apply? If your answer is no, then we have both made our point and can move on. If you answer yes (the right answer) then we can all breath a sigh of relief as you have come to your senses.

Swastakowey wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
If it is not what you meant, you may simply stop being rude and say "yeah, that's not what I meant", reformulate so we better understand you and it'll all be fine.

Or you can read what I actually said and stop making assumptions and/or straw man arguments.

I could have taken many other exemples than US nuclear bombing if that bugs you that much for some reason.

And they would all be equally irrelevant. Past atrocities do not justify future ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:
I already asked him these "simple questions" which are beneath him to answer apparently, because he has discovered something many philosophers have failed to see. That genocide is bad and it's that simple haha. Who cares what the problem is? Just kill until it might look like you'll genocide them and stop. What happens next? Who knows, we didnt genocide so we dont have to worry. Maybe after the loss of 147 generations of men will he consider maybe just eliminating them might be for the better.

Ah yes, the compelling philosophical argument that mass murder of innocents is fine as long as the alternative is inconvenient.

I hope you're the first to line up and serve in the meatgrinder to fight the eternally crusading aliens of 40k. Afterall, dying as your father did, and your son will and every one after for all of eternity is a small price to pay to not be called a genocidal person hahaha. Good luck selling that mindset to people with a real threat in front of them... like Orks.

Please use your wisdom, and explain to me how a dark eldar or an orc is "innocent"?

Because, they're sentient and have feelings to ya know?

Like, what your insides look like or how much pressure it'd take to crush your bones? Or how loud a human can audibly scream or how much humans does it take to fill an entire pitcher full of their blood? For refreshments of course, we wouldn't want the poor little Archon and his Kabal to be thirsty would we?

Yes those very, very interesting "feelings" that they all collectively share and exhibit.

 Abanshee wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
If it is not what you meant, you may simply stop being rude and say "yeah, that's not what I meant", reformulate so we better understand you and it'll all be fine.

Or you can read what I actually said and stop making assumptions and/or straw man arguments.

I could have taken many other exemples than US nuclear bombing if that bugs you that much for some reason.

And they would all be equally irrelevant. Past atrocities do not justify future ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:
I already asked him these "simple questions" which are beneath him to answer apparently, because he has discovered something many philosophers have failed to see. That genocide is bad and it's that simple haha. Who cares what the problem is? Just kill until it might look like you'll genocide them and stop. What happens next? Who knows, we didnt genocide so we dont have to worry. Maybe after the loss of 147 generations of men will he consider maybe just eliminating them might be for the better.

Ah yes, the compelling philosophical argument that mass murder of innocents is fine as long as the alternative is inconvenient.

I hope you're the first to line up and serve in the meatgrinder to fight the eternally crusading aliens of 40k. Afterall, dying as your father did, and your son will and every one after for all of eternity is a small price to pay to not be called a genocidal person hahaha. Good luck selling that mindset to people with a real threat in front of them... like Orks.

Please use your wisdom, and explain to me how a dark eldar or an orc is "innocent"?

Because, they're sentient and have feelings to ya know?

Like, what your insides look like or how much pressure it'd take to crush your bones? Or how loud a human can audibly scream or how much humans does it take to fill an entire pitcher full of their blood? For refreshments of course, we wouldn't want the poor little Archon and his Kabal to be thirsty would we?

Yes those very, very interesting "feelings" that they all collectively share and exhibit.

I agree!

Oh but you forget fellow intellectual, that should one of these sentient creatures mature, it is of course ok to eradicate them. My son perished in exacting our moral justice as any good man would do against these adults! Thank the emperor he didn't accidentally hit an adolescent ork in the process! Foul things adult orcs are... how do such things coem from such angels?

Swastakowey wrote:
So your solution to orks fungus growing in your basement, is wait for them to grow up and destroy your house and family before dealing with it?

Destroying a non-sentient fungus is not genocide just like mowing your lawn isn't genocide. We're talking about killing sentient beings here.

I'll try one more method to reaching your impenetrable opinions. Can you think of any scenario, real or fictional, in which your no genocide rule may not apply? If your answer is no, then we have both made our point and can move on. If you answer yes (the right answer) then we can all breath a sigh of relief as you have come to your senses.

I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with figuring out situations where genocide could be justified, but that's exactly the reason why GW had to put out an official statement reminding everyone that every single faction in 40k is unimaginably evil and the Imperium is no exception.

The answer is no, genocide is not acceptable, and I'm appalled that you are willing to publicly state that genocide must be acceptable in some cases and you hope that I "come to my senses" and agree with you on endorsing it. This whole conversation is reminding me of the creepy people who obsess over trying to find a way to kill someone in "self defense", gleefully hoping someone will break into their house so they can have a chance to shoot someone.

Destroying a non-sentient fungus is not genocide just like mowing your lawn isn't genocide. We're talking about killing sentient beings here.

Yeah, it is. Killing Ork spores is certainly genocide since your actively denying their ability to reproduce therefore reducing the population. Also, they're very sentient, but still barbaric brutes. I ain't arguing against it though, bring out the promethium in mass!

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
So your solution to orks fungus growing in your basement, is wait for them to grow up and destroy your house and family before dealing with it?

Destroying a non-sentient fungus is not genocide just like mowing your lawn isn't genocide. We're talking about killing sentient beings here.

I'll try one more method to reaching your impenetrable opinions. Can you think of any scenario, real or fictional, in which your no genocide rule may not apply? If your answer is no, then we have both made our point and can move on. If you answer yes (the right answer) then we can all breath a sigh of relief as you have come to your senses.

I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with figuring out situations where genocide could be justified, but that's exactly the reason why GW had to put out an official statement reminding everyone that every single faction in 40k is unimaginably evil and the Imperium is no exception.

The answer is no, genocide is not acceptable, and I'm appalled that you are willing to publicly state that genocide must be acceptable in some cases and you hope that I "come to my senses" and agree with you on endorsing it.

Thankfully GW, the money hungry corporation without a soul has no bearing on what is right or wrong. Nor would I ever use a company as evidence for my moral compass because... well imagine...

But yes, when you have a strong moral implication you should probably explore it. For example we all think lying or killing is not ok HOWEVER when put under scrutiny such a broad statement becomes impossible to hold true. Therefore we start drawing exceptions and identifying grey zones. If you cant do that, then why have that opinion? If your opinion can't hold up to scrutiny, as is the case with orks and genocide (a fictional hypothetical remember, so you can free your emotions from it somewhat) then it might be time to reflect on the validity of it. Remember, wiping every Dark Eldar out of existence doesn't mean you now have justified the systematic removal of every American on earth. Just like deciding its ok to bomb a military compound which might have mothers visiting that day doesn't justify killing mothers until they are no more. It can be a lot more complicated than broad statements of no value.

Also the forced abortion of every person in a group is indeed genocide. Im sure you know this though as a resident genocide expert.

Removed.

Swastakowey wrote:
Therefore we start drawing exceptions and identifying grey zones.

No we don't. There is no "grey zone" for questions like this, only bloodthirsty desire to come up with rationalizations for why genocide is ok. You're the creepy guy leaving his garage open, desperately hoping that someone will walk in so he can have the chance to shoot someone in "self defense".

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Because it actually is complicated? Again if it's so simple, please oh wise moralist, tell me your solution to the orc problem? Third time asking...

Destroy military targets and remove their ability to fight wars, as I have already said. Stop making up excuses for why genocide is justified.

But orks are born for war.
Their entire culture and reason to exist is battle. They are a bio-engineered weapon.

They only have military targets; they only have the ability to fight wars. Removing all military targets and removing their ability to fight wars requires destruction of the entire ork race. Or you shift from genocidal crimes to genetic ones as you alter their DNA to remove their warlike requirement from life.

What the actual is wrong with you people? Quit making Thermian arguments in defense of genocide.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:
Therefore we start drawing exceptions and identifying grey zones.

No we don't. There is no "grey zone" for questions like this, only bloodthirsty desire to come up with rationalizations for why genocide is ok. You're the creepy guy leaving his garage open, desperately hoping that someone will walk in so he can have the chance to shoot someone in "self defense".

No, im not. But you are the guy in these wild hypotheticals crying at the loss of Orks in the galaxy. A totally misplaced emotion which is seemingly blind to the untold suffering they cause to real innocent people. But look, if you can't explore things because you're scared of being perceived a certain way, why say anything at all?

Im tempted to explore the garage logic but it really is off topic. I think the genocide thing is more relevant and funny, especially in the context of literal orks hahaha. It would make a great comedy skit.


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 RaptorusRex wrote:
What the actual is wrong with you people? Quit making Thermian arguments in defense of genocide.

Quit having fun and discussing hypotheticals!

 Overread wrote:
But orks are born for war.
Their entire culture and reason to exist is battle. They are a bio-engineered weapon.

That's an inherent contradiction. Culture requires sentience and agency, if orks can be nothing other than a weapon then they are non-sentient automatons acting on purely animal instinct and the concept of genocide does not apply.


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 RaptorusRex wrote:
What the actual is wrong with you people? Quit making Thermian arguments in defense of genocide.

Unfortunately there are some people who admire the Imperium and enjoy it being a thinly-veiled symbol of the genocides they want to commit in the real world.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:


Unfortunately there are some people who admire the Imperium and enjoy it being a thinly-veiled symbol of the genocides they want to commit in the real world.

This is a very creepy way to view the world and discussions. Borderline paranoid. Remember you just dehumanized orks and ruled that it isnt genocide against them because they are seemingly incapable of anything but (insert thing I dont like here). Now where has that logic been used before? Or is genocide only ok when you can try your best to not call it genocide.

Remember orks have language, customs, currency, hierarchy, society, technology, songs, trends, heroes etc etc etc. Id personally call it genocide... but unlike you I wouldnt be lying.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
What the actual is wrong with you people? Quit making Thermian arguments in defense of genocide.

Fictional genocide of a fictitious species. Oh, the horror! We have fallen as a community, millions must be reeducated.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:


Past atrocities do not justify future ones.

Nor fictionnal ones for that matter, but you said it clear this time, so I've no more to criticise about.

However if I may advise you, maybe make another thread in another section of the forum on sentience because that is a topic in and of itself that occupyed philosophers and theologists for a long time and still does. Along the lines "how do you qualify sentience in a fantasy universe?". Could be worth a chat.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

However if I may advise you, maybe make another thread in another section of the forum on sentience because that is a topic in and of itself that occupyed philosophers and theologists for a long time and still does. Along the lines "how do you qualify sentience in a fantasy universe?". Could be worth a chat.

I agree, it could be interesting.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Overread wrote:
But orks are born for war.
Their entire culture and reason to exist is battle. They are a bio-engineered weapon.

That's an inherent contradiction. Culture requires sentience and agency, if orks can be nothing other than a weapon then they are non-sentient automatons acting on purely animal instinct and the concept of genocide does not apply.

Not really. They are a bioengineered weapon.

They are still alive, still have hopes, dreams, aspirations, cultural elements and way more. It's just all focused on being the biggest and bestest ork with a drive toward war because an ork is most happy when they are in a good scrap/fight/whaargh.

They are indeed alive and cultured; they are just wired up for WAR and combat. Even without enemies they fight heavily within themselves.

Again to stop Orks you have to either destroy them all or edit them at a genetic level to remove their warlike elements. Otherwise they will constantly keep trying to unite and start wars. If anything keeping an ork in a state of peace without battle, combat or aggression and such could actually be considered torture and abuse.

The difficulty in this kind of thread is assigning agency to fictional characters. The Emperor’s decisions are not made in any in-universe manner, rational or irrational. They have been made by a series of different authors over 30 years or so.

 Flinty wrote:
The difficulty in this kind of thread is assigning agency to fictional characters. The Emperor’s decisions are not made in any in-universe manner, rational or irrational. They have been made by a series of different authors over 30 years or so.

This gets even muddier when there are stories which are in-universe lies presented as truth; articles that have other characters guessing/surmising the actions of others; writers who grab the wrong end of a stick etc....

On top of that is the fact that many fans only engage with lore in bits not as a whole. So some have read more than others; some are running purely on what's in the codex and rulebook which is often the most boiled down summary of a factions lore. Meanwhile others have poured over every single book and short story and throw away comment in White Dwarf; then you've those who have engaged with lore in generational blocks. Perhaps reading a lot of old or newer lore and not engaging much with the rest.

Exalted those 2 past posts, really true both of them and they encompass most of the lore discussions of not all.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Exalted those 2 past posts, really true both of them and they encompass most of the lore discussions of not all.

Same, I honestly couldn't of put any better myself, than what both Flinty and Overread said.

Hecaton wrote:
You have the cause and effect wrong. Almost every alien species is hostile to humans because the humans are fething nuts. You can go read the material on the Tau if you want to see how a new player on the scene learns very quickly that the Imperium is senselessly genocidal and untrustworthy.

This is 40k, not star trek. Almost every alien species is hostile, full stop. That's part of what makes 40k, well, 40k.

Even if humans weren't around, the likes of the rangdan, slaugh, hrud, orks and any other number of alien races would be off doing horrible things to each other as a matter of course anyway. Humans are just one more source of food.

As to the tau - I mean, from the imperials point of view, since their failure to exterminate the primal tau and since they have since rose to prominence, how many millions of the imperiums soldiers and hundreds of worlds/ billions of their citizens have been lost to wars against them in the Eastern fringe? From the imperial point of view the current situation with them would justify their outlook that had the extermination been done right, they would be in a better place now.

ThePaintingOwl wrote:[)

That's an inherent contradiction. Culture requires sentience and agency, if orks can be nothing other than a weapon then they are non-sentient automatons acting on purely animal instinct and the concept of genocide does not apply.

Orks have kultur. Orks have sentience (orks know they are orks) and agency.

They have a sophisticated civilization, religion (gork and mork), music (goffic rock is a thing), art (of war), a social hierarchy, agriculture, animal/squig-husbandry, technology and industry, economies/trade (teef), logistics (how else do Boyz get to da fight?) specialists (weirdboyz), various subcultures (kult of speed) and about a thousand subcultures devoted to using squigs.everything might be geared to war and conquest ultimately, but their civilization is in many regards, kind of perfect. They even have an oppressed class - grots.

The point is that the Tau have managed to integrate several different species and civilizations, including humans, into their empire.

Every xenos is hostile to the IoM because the IoM is hostile to every xenos.

Except the T’au remain First Among Equals, with a rigorously imposed caste system amongst their own ranks, where you can only gain power and influence with the blessings of the Ethereal Caste - who remain above everyone else Because.

That’s just not a wholesome society, at all. Scrape away the veneer of positivity, and you end up with the leader Caste of a specific race exploiting everyone else they can to expand their own sphere of influence, sharing varying sizes of crumbs down their pyramid scheme of the Greater Good. Not to mention the suggestions that some races within their Empire have been tricked/controlled into being there, such as the Vespid Communion Helms.

Saying yes please and thank you whilst taking control is still taking control. Especially as none of their vassals appear to have any say whatsoever in the running of the Empire.

Oh the Tau have their own issues and would be blatantly the villains in any other setting.

But the bar we are trying to clear here is no getting into genocidal wars with each and every neighbor like the IoM does, and the Tau do clear that absurdly low bar.

Until your planet rejects The Greater Good. Then you’re absolutely fair game.

 Abanshee wrote:


Take a drink every time someone assumes you haven't read something. I'd be suffering from liver failure, lol!

Didn't answer my question. I guess you really *don't* know.


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 Abanshee wrote:

Justifies real world atrocities, yet finds it disturbing when you like funny golden space wizard man that shoots elves and stabs orks. Hmmm....

The United States was not genocidal towards the Japanese just for existing. That's the difference. The fact that you can't see that, or won't, is very telling.


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Swastakowey wrote:

Is that not what the Eldar do to the Imperium all the time? Tell me again why its wise to not remove them? Or will you simply reeducate them somehow? That probably wont stop their hallucinations which they take seriously enough to kill your kids and planets either.

Lol they're not hallucinations, they're actually reasonable accurate. And they do what they do to protect themselves - unlike the Imperium, which will hurt itself as long as it gets to keep genociding the innocent.

 Tyran wrote:
The point is that the Tau have managed to integrate several different species and civilizations, including humans, into their empire.

Every xenos is hostile to the IoM because the IoM is hostile to every xenos.

And my point was plenty xenos are just as bad and were they in ascendancy in the galaxy (arguably orks already are in ascendancy) you'd see no difference in the reality on the ground.

Tau have integrated some xenos and some humans. Others they exterminate on sight eg orks.

Humans too are often not regarded as valuable - wasn't there that short story a while back where the tau turned on their human allies for being too superstitious?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Until your planet rejects The Greater Good. Then you’re absolutely fair game.

Sure. Still makes them better, morally, than the Imperium.

Deadnight wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
The point is that the Tau have managed to integrate several different species and civilizations, including humans, into their empire.

Every xenos is hostile to the IoM because the IoM is hostile to every xenos.

And my point was plenty xenos are just as bad and were they in ascendancy in the galaxy (arguably orks already are in ascendancy) you'd see no difference in the reality on the ground.

Tau have integrated some xenos and some humans. Others they exterminate on sight eg orks.

Humans too are often not regarded as valuable - wasn't there that short story a while back where the tau turned on their human allies for being too superstitious?

Every faction is monstrous, yes.
Some are moreso than others.

Don’t forget the Eldar will happily cause, or carefully fail to prevent, the deaths of billions of other species to spare even a single Eldar life.

They’re not a benevolent species at all.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Don’t forget the Eldar will happily cause, or carefully fail to prevent, the deaths of billions of other species to spare even a single Eldar life.

They’re not a benevolent species at all.

That's an exaggeration; there's a lot of variance within the Eldar. Let's not forget, as well, that the Imperium would gladly sacrifice human lives to kill aliens. That's a higher level of evil.

But it remains true.

Eldar don’t see any other species as an equal. Right now? The Imperium is a useful lumbering beast they can coax into sorting out other threats, whilst being comparatively easy to dodge.

Deadnight wrote:
This is 40k, not star trek. Almost every alien species is hostile, full stop. That's part of what makes 40k, well, 40k.

Even if humans weren't around, the likes of the rangdan, slaugh, hrud, orks and any other number of alien races would be off doing horrible things to each other as a matter of course anyway. Humans are just one more source of food.

As to the tau - I mean, from the imperials point of view, since their failure to exterminate the primal tau and since they have since rose to prominence, how many millions of the imperiums soldiers and hundreds of worlds/ billions of their citizens have been lost to wars against them in the Eastern fringe? From the imperial point of view the current situation with them would justify their outlook that had the extermination been done right, they would be in a better place now.

And there were other races that were entirely peaceful or could have just existed if the Imperium wasn't hell-bent on its manifest destiny. Hell, the Imperium couldn't even have human empires existing not under its thumb and it brutally conquered those who fought against it.
The foe the Imperium most often fought during the Crusade was its own kind and they had to be human "enough" or they got wiped out as well. The Imperial Fists found a world that was willing to join the Imperium peacefully and openly but because they were just a little bit too mutated, they were destroyed. These were people that had survived the Long Night and welcomed the Imperium with open arms, but instead of helping them, the Emperor sentenced them to death by his laws and rules.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But it remains true.

No it doesn't. You're just making stuff up to avoid confronting the fact that the Imperium is morally bankrupt compared to CWE, Tau, etc.

Where did I say that? Or even imply that?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where did I say that? Or even imply that?

Duh, everyone knows that criticism of One Thing means unequivocal support of the Other Thing.

Discussions seem a little heated over whether or not each faction in 40k are terrible.

Orks and Tyranids are arguably the closest to “innocent” as 40K gets.

For Orks? Their entire species accepts Might Makes Right. Their pecking order just is. Whilst no Grot will ever ascend to Warboss, Nob etc, there’s nothing else in their society actively preventing them going about their wretched little lives. Orks don’t forbid Grots from commerce or even property ownership. Nor are they particularly forced to hang around The Boyz.

To Orks, violence is all consuming. It’s what they do. It likely doesn’t occur to them that other species don’t enjoy it so much, because the majority of their interactions with other species involve some kind of fight - even if by Orks standards it’s not a terribly satisfying scrap.

Scant comfort if your world is be assaulted of course. But their actions aren’t borne out of malice or even evil. It’s literally just their nature, and one they’re compelled to follow.

I don't particularly agree.

Orks still partake in nasty acts. Torture, slavery and so on. Grots are mistreated, because they're small and orks can mistreat them.

Tyranids it's a little harder to pinpoint where I feel their malice is. Somewhere around whatever is directing the Hive Mind. Norn Queens or whatever are aware of the powers of fear and discord on sentient minds. It's why they created the Parasite of Mortrex, Lictors, The Swarmlord, Old One Eye, etc. OOE isn't a perfectly efficient creature, but it's well known in the Imperium. It knows how to use fear and terror.

Are they as horrible as Chaos, the Imperium, or any flavor of Eldar? No. But they would still sooner see the universe be only made up of themselves, just the same as the rest.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where did I say that? Or even imply that?

You're throwing counterpoints at people who say that the Tau and CWE, while rough, aren't as genocidal or evil as the Imperium. If you didn't have a problem with that statement you'd just agree and move on.

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where did I say that? Or even imply that?

You're throwing counterpoints at people who say that the Tau and CWE, while rough, aren't as genocidal or evil as the Imperium. If you didn't have a problem with that statement you'd just agree and move on.

Everyone is terrible. But you don't align to my specific interpretation of the scale at which everyone is awful, so I shall browbeat you until you agree with me.

Hecaton wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:

Is that not what the Eldar do to the Imperium all the time? Tell me again why its wise to not remove them? Or will you simply reeducate them somehow? That probably wont stop their hallucinations which they take seriously enough to kill your kids and planets either.

Lol they're not hallucinations, they're actually reasonable accurate. And they do what they do to protect themselves - unlike the Imperium, which will hurt itself as long as it gets to keep genociding the innocent.

If your subjects are being killed for crimes their future selves, or children might commit, unprovably, because some priesthood claim to see the future, then no that's not really allowed in my empire or outside of it. They would, and should be eliminated, at least until the hallucination induced murder stops but they're low iq Eldar, it won't stop. So no harm in assisting in their decline.

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where did I say that? Or even imply that?

You're throwing counterpoints at people who say that the Tau and CWE, while rough, aren't as genocidal or evil as the Imperium. If you didn't have a problem with that statement you'd just agree and move on.

No I’m not. I’m throwing a poor light on Tau and CWE, and have said nuffink about The Imperium? Like. At all. I’ve neither justified nor attempted to decry The Imperium’s approach to anything?


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Swastakowey wrote:

Hecaton wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:

Is that not what the Eldar do to the Imperium all the time? Tell me again why its wise to not remove them? Or will you simply reeducate them somehow? That probably wont stop their hallucinations which they take seriously enough to kill your kids and planets either.

Lol they're not hallucinations, they're actually reasonable accurate. And they do what they do to protect themselves - unlike the Imperium, which will hurt itself as long as it gets to keep genociding the innocent.

If your subjects are being killed for crimes their future selves, or children might commit, unprovably, because some priesthood claim to see the future, then no that's not really allowed in my empire or outside of it. They would, and should be eliminated, at least until the hallucination induced murder stops but they're low iq Eldar, it won't stop. So no harm in assisting in their decline.

Eldar Precognition isn’t hallucination. Nor can they ever truly guarantee an outcome. What they can do is Dr Strange it, to see how different actions in the now might shift the threads of fate in the future, and go for the best, or “least bad” action. Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread (at least I think it was this one) it’s far from a precise science. Indeed, at the planning stage you have a council of seers to agree on a course of action collectively. This is why they may commit to seemingly one-sided battle where they get flattened. Because it’s been scryed (scried?) that the 100 lost today, will spare 10,000 tomorrow. One reason for such an action might be to nudge an Imperial World on to a war footing, just in time for an Orky Hulk and it’s fleets to tip out of the Warp spoiling for a fight. Already being on a war footing, The Imperium is quicker to respond and does more damage, maybe even the difference of taking the Space Hulk entirely off the galactic board.

It’s not that far off a Farmer having his herd put down and burned to prevent a coming disease spreading, knowing that the loss today ensures a productive farming future, because whichever manky disease is no longer able to easily spread.

Would also like to point out that the Imperium started killing Aeldari long before shenanigans like that were ever discovered.

It's interesting that all the justification for state enforced genocide comes from purely the M41 perspective when the Imperium was doing it in M30.

Oh I’m not defending any party here. Except maybe Orks and Nids who I still don’t consider to be evil by their own standards. Humans and Eldar could choose to share the Galaxy and its resources. As could Tau and Necrons.

But Orks and Nids? Yeah not at all. Yes both absolutely cause untold suffering, but It’s Nothing Personal. I mean, when it comes to Orks? If you as a Weedy ‘Umie killed an Ork in HTH? His mates would give you a drubbing not in vengeance or grief, but to prove they’re ‘Arder than you, and even then they’re doing that on instinct more than anything.

Heck, if you killed the Nob? The Boy that kills you likely becomes the Next Nob, by dint of killing the thing that killed the boss.

Orks have no choice but to fight, because it’s so deeply ingrained into them that they need it to thrive and survive.

 Thadin wrote:
I don't particularly agree.

Orks still partake in nasty acts. Torture, slavery and so on. Grots are mistreated, because they're small and orks can mistreat them.

Tyranids it's a little harder to pinpoint where I feel their malice is. Somewhere around whatever is directing the Hive Mind. Norn Queens or whatever are aware of the powers of fear and discord on sentient minds. It's why they created the Parasite of Mortrex, Lictors, The Swarmlord, Old One Eye, etc. OOE isn't a perfectly efficient creature, but it's well known in the Imperium. It knows how to use fear and terror.

Are they as horrible as Chaos, the Imperium, or any flavor of Eldar? No. But they would still sooner see the universe be only made up of themselves, just the same as the rest.

I'd put a difference on the ork perpetrating of nasty acts, to the extent that in my view they don't have reason to do it, they just do. I don't know if i'm clear on my thought, but they aren't malicious or perverse per say. Being a simple tool of war with a violent culture engrained into them for war, they don't theorise or think much about the consequences of their acts, about good and bad anyway. They live the life they were made for.

Not that it makes them good at all, but I tend to consider them with that tiny detail. Bad, excessively violent and nasty, but not malicious. WHich makes a niche of them amonsgt most other species and I like that view because it is ironic that the worst barbarians of the galaxy might in fact not be the worst pals at heart.

As the Eldar view snippet background thing suggests? Orks are successful because of their kultur.

Ulthan The Perverse wrote:The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude

It’s straightforward. They’re unified behind it. They’re just out to have a good time, and they seemingly genuinely can’t comprehend it’s not an equally good time for everyone else involved.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And we also need to consider the League’s of Votann.

Sure, for the most part they’ll give the inhabitants of any planet they want to strip mine the choice and opportunity to evacuate. But if you can’t or won’t? Tough, because just like the KLF told Tammy Wynette? Better not stop them ‘cause they’re coming through.

Swastakowey wrote:

If your subjects are being killed for crimes their future selves, or children might commit, unprovably, because some priesthood claim to see the future, then no that's not really allowed in my empire or outside of it. They would, and should be eliminated, at least until the hallucination induced murder stops but they're low iq Eldar, it won't stop. So no harm in assisting in their decline.

So you're against Eldrad trying to kill Abaddon immediately prior to the 13th Black Crusade?


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
No I’m not. I’m throwing a poor light on Tau and CWE, and have said nuffink about The Imperium? Like. At all. I’ve neither justified nor attempted to decry The Imperium’s approach to anything?

You should do a better job of understanding the context, then. When someone's saying "The Imperium sucks compared to the Tau and CWE!" and you say "The Tau and CWE are terrible!" without saying anything about the Imperium you're implying that you think the initial comparison is wrong. Do you?

Weird insistence on putting words in my mouth.

Everyone is awful in their own ways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Except the Orks.

Considering how long Doc's been on this train I think he's got a some understanding of the lore and you can't "blame him for having been infected by unholy lore of youtube"

I don’t think he’s accusing me of that. I think this is just a failure to communicate.

Easily done after a few pages of hot takes, forgetting who said what and when.

No, don't worry, he was accusing me of that, but the reply in essence he made was pretty much the same, that's why I said that Doc!

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where did I say that? Or even imply that?

You're throwing counterpoints at people who say that the Tau and CWE, while rough, aren't as genocidal or evil as the Imperium. If you didn't have a problem with that statement you'd just agree and move on.

Because, it's a terrible argument. Two wrongs don't make a right. Tau and CWE are arguably worse. Tau give you no other choice than to serve the Greater Good or die, while using your species as a indentured fighting force. Wow, so progressive and caring.

CWE just don't even view us on the same level. They see us as monkeys and would gladly kill us if it meant serving their twisted ambitions. They betray us on a whim constantly and have actively helped birth a rape god into existence. Certainly, s progressive and caring outlook on the universe. Dark Eldar aren't even comparable to the Imperium, there just mindless psychopaths who're addicted to inflicting pain, rape, and torture at every turn they can.

CWE and Tau are just as evil as the Imperium, if not more. Wrong sci-fi universe to be pulling this sort of card, pal.

Also, you're upset that people disagree with you and have differing opinions/won't just automatically agree with you like a total NPC? Uh, what?

 Abanshee wrote:
CWE and Tau are just as evil as the Imperium, if not more.

Lolwut. Being forced to serve the Tau (which, by all lore accounts, is like having to take an Amazon warehouse job and is far better than life in an Imperial hive city) is just as bad as being exterminated by the Imperium? Seriously?

Hecaton wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:


Take a drink every time someone assumes you haven't read something. I'd be suffering from liver failure, lol!

Didn't answer my question. I guess you really *don't* know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abanshee wrote:

Justifies real world atrocities, yet finds it disturbing when you like funny golden space wizard man that shoots elves and stabs orks. Hmmm....

The United States was not genocidal towards the Japanese just for existing. That's the difference. The fact that you can't see that, or won't, is very telling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:

Is that not what the Eldar do to the Imperium all the time? Tell me again why its wise to not remove them? Or will you simply reeducate them somehow? That probably wont stop their hallucinations which they take seriously enough to kill your kids and planets either.

Lol they're not hallucinations, they're actually reasonable accurate. And they do what they do to protect themselves - unlike the Imperium, which will hurt itself as long as it gets to keep genociding the innocent.

Nah, if you're gonna assume straight out the gate that I'm an idiot then what's the point of even wasting the time to type? You've gone in circles and this discussion has become stale as feth. Also, the US certainly acted in a genocidal manner towards the Japanese. They put their own citizens in fething camps dude. I love how you'll defend space elves all day, but justify incinerating a gak ton of Japanese civilians. Yet, you get mad when one of us call for the death of all Orks, lol.

Let me put this as nicely as I can muster. You seem more interested in being morally right within the laws of a fictional universe and scoring "gotcha points" than actually discussing anything, considering how far the conversation has devolved from the original topic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
CWE and Tau are just as evil as the Imperium, if not more.

Lolwut. Being forced to serve the Tau (which, by all lore accounts, is like having to take an Amazon warehouse job and is far better than life in an Imperial hive city) is just as bad as being exterminated by the Imperium? Seriously?

I'd rather take a bolt round than work for someone against my will.

 Abanshee wrote:
CWE and Tau are just as evil as the Imperium, if not more. Wrong sci-fi universe to be pulling this sort of card, pal.

On the grand scale? You're wrong.

Craftworlders are condescending a-holes with a massive superiority complex that can and will sacrifice the lives of any other race to prevent Asuryani deaths but they also don't go around atomising peaceful civilisations because they look funny as a basic policy. As many times as they manipulate other races (usually humanity cos they're pretty useful like that) into dealing with a threat, they also stop threats before they become threats to more than just the Aeldari. And while their manipulations will lead to death and destruction, in the grand mathematical equation that is Aeldari foresight, it sometimes works out ok-ish. Still objectively bad though.

And the T'au. Life for humans is better under the T'au as an auxiliary race than it is as the supposed "destined rulers of the galaxy" in the Imperium. That wouldn't last if the T'au Empire got larger than its little pocket on the Eastern Fringe and as time has moved on for the T'au, the ruling powers of the empire have come face to face with the real issues that spreading the T'au'va is facing. The Imperium is too vast to be conquered or even converted and the other major players aren't going for it. The T'au will likely end up like the Imperium if they push themselves too far. They still likely wouldn't turn to state-enforced genocide but the Emire would either have to become brutally authoritarian or simply collapse into smaller sized factions. The T'au are still bad because of the Castes, the not-quite citizen class of non-T'au and the expansionist goals alongside assimilation into their culture and creed but still not anywhere near as bad as the Imperium.

 Abanshee wrote:
I'd rather take a bolt round than work for someone against my will.

Two things:
1 - That makes you sound like a weirdo.
2 - Do you think people work in Imperial factories, mines, and record offices out of choice? Generational slavery and indentured servitude is a common punishment in the Imperium and those punishments come for the stupidest of things. Drop a parchment? Beatings from your overseer. Late for shift? Beatings and no rations. Disagree with the ruling class/current Cult in charge? Burned alive if you're lucky, slavery, conscription into a Penal Battalion, or getting turned into a Servitor if not. Even if a human can't be part of one of the T'au Castes they still have far more freedom of choice than they ever would in the Imperium at all levels of society.

 Abanshee wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where did I say that? Or even imply that?

You're throwing counterpoints at people who say that the Tau and CWE, while rough, aren't as genocidal or evil as the Imperium. If you didn't have a problem with that statement you'd just agree and move on.

Because, it's a terrible argument. Two wrongs don't make a right. Tau and CWE are arguably worse. Tau give you no other choice than to serve the Greater Good or die, while using your species as a indentured fighting force. Wow, so progressive and caring.

CWE just don't even view us on the same level. They see us as monkeys and would gladly kill us if it meant serving their twisted ambitions. They betray us on a whim constantly and have actively helped birth a rape god into existence. Certainly, s progressive and caring outlook on the universe. Dark Eldar aren't even comparable to the Imperium, there just mindless psychopaths who're addicted to inflicting pain, rape, and torture at every turn they can.

CWE and Tau are just as evil as the Imperium, if not more. Wrong sci-fi universe to be pulling this sort of card, pal.

Also, you're upset that people disagree with you and have differing opinions/won't just automatically agree with you like a total NPC? Uh, what?

Eldar see us as worse than monkeys. ‘Mon Keigh’ is obviously an IRL pun, but in universe means something close to ‘pests who need to be exterminated’.

They don’t really see any other race as people, and would happily exterminate all of them that get in their way if they could.


But every race in 40k is terrible, and everyone is quite happy to wipe all the others out. That is the conceit of the setting.

Precisely zero playable factions are justified in what they do.

Orks are. Spesh if you accept the strong hint they’re a devolved/corrupted warrior species created by the Old Ones.

Then it’s literally no different to a gun. Its purpose is its purpose. Doesn’t make them benevolent, but firmly stops them being malevolent. Just a natural hazard of the Galaxy, no more “evil” than hard vacuum, a supernova or what have you.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Weird insistence on putting words in my mouth.

Everyone is awful in their own ways.

Avoiding the question makes it look like you're upset at what the answer would be. Do you think the Imperium is morally worse than the Tau or not?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Orks are. Spesh if you accept the strong hint they’re a devolved/corrupted warrior species created by the Old Ones.

Then it’s literally no different to a gun. Its purpose is its purpose. Doesn’t make them benevolent, but firmly stops them being malevolent. Just a natural hazard of the Galaxy, no more “evil” than hard vacuum, a supernova or what have you.

I'd disagree in that Orks choose to be cruel to their captives. Indifference is bad, active cruelty is worse.

They can't control the urge to fight but they find it funny to feed things to squigs or to put a human in a cage and use it for target "practice".

 Abanshee wrote:
Because, it's a terrible argument. Two wrongs don't make a right. Tau and CWE are arguably worse. Tau give you no other choice than to serve the Greater Good or die, while using your species as a indentured fighting force. Wow, so progressive and caring.

No, it's a great argument. Some things are less evil than others. The Tau are functionally a totalitarian oligarchy; it's still a morally better system than the Imperium has. The Tau give you that choice, they also don't force people to fight. The Imperium just kills aliens it finds - which is much worse. Civilian humans in Tau space are treated better than in the Imperium, the lore is consistent on this.

 Abanshee wrote:
CWE just don't even view us on the same level. They see us as monkeys and would gladly kill us if it meant serving their twisted ambitions. They betray us on a whim constantly and have actively helped birth a rape god into existence. Certainly, s progressive and caring outlook on the universe. Dark Eldar aren't even comparable to the Imperium, there just mindless psychopaths who're addicted to inflicting pain, rape, and torture at every turn they can.

The Dark Eldar are about as bad as the Imperium. The Imperium thrives off of torture, genocide, murder, and corruption - and they don't even get anything tangible out of it like the DE do! I'd suggest reading Redemption Corps if you want a taste of how the Sororitas are torture-happy psychopaths, just with lower tech and less creativity than the Drukhari.

And the DE are meaningless to the core discussion, which is that CWE are *not* as bad as you are claiming - they are made up of the Eldar who *left* rather than be involved in Slaanesh's birth. Interesting that you think they're still culpable for that - like collective guilt. But only one way.

 Abanshee wrote:
CWE and Tau are just as evil as the Imperium, if not more. Wrong sci-fi universe to be pulling this sort of card, pal.

No. You haven't provided any evidence of that other than stating you *wish* they were. Which says more about you than the setting.

 Abanshee wrote:

Also, you're upset that people disagree with you and have differing opinions/won't just automatically agree with you like a total NPC? Uh, what?

When their disagreement is explicitly based on ignoring the setting material in favor of what they already wanted, yeah.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Orks are. Spesh if you accept the strong hint they’re a devolved/corrupted warrior species created by the Old Ones.

Then it’s literally no different to a gun. Its purpose is its purpose. Doesn’t make them benevolent, but firmly stops them being malevolent. Just a natural hazard of the Galaxy, no more “evil” than hard vacuum, a supernova or what have you.

They’re arguably unique in not being malevolent*, as they don’t get that what’s a good time for them is not a good time for everyone else, but they’re still not justified either

And they’re still pretty supremacist, given they penchant for purging things which they don’t consider to be sufficiently ’orky’.

Yeah they were created as a weapon, but they’re a pretty horrific one when you think about it.


*(though certain daemons have a similar mentality)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Orks are. Spesh if you accept the strong hint they’re a devolved/corrupted warrior species created by the Old Ones.

Then it’s literally no different to a gun. Its purpose is its purpose. Doesn’t make them benevolent, but firmly stops them being malevolent. Just a natural hazard of the Galaxy, no more “evil” than hard vacuum, a supernova or what have you.

I mean they are literally as evil as a nuclear bomb is. It's just these nukes are british, are utterly barbaric, and quite literally wanna rip off your arms, because it'd be funny. Their the only faction that is downright honest about their intentions save the
Dark Eldar and Tyranids. So, I second the belief, Orks are the only morally correct race. Gork and Mork demand it.

 Abanshee wrote:
I'd rather take a bolt round than work for someone against my will.

No you wouldn't.

 Abanshee wrote:


Nah, if you're gonna assume straight out the gate that I'm an idiot then what's the point of even wasting the time to type?

I didn't assume you were an idiot, I'm in the process of finding out that you're wrong about a lot of this stuff.

 Abanshee wrote:
You've gone in circles and this discussion has become stale as feth. Also, the US certainly acted in a genocidal manner towards the Japanese. They put their own citizens in fething camps dude. I love how you'll defend space elves all day, but justify incinerating a gak ton of Japanese civilians. Yet, you get mad when one of us call for the death of all Orks, lol.

The US treated the Japanese far better than the Japanese treated the Filipinos or Chinese. There are degrees here.

 Abanshee wrote:
Let me put this as nicely as I can muster. You seem more interested in being morally right within the laws of a fictional universe and scoring "gotcha points" than actually discussing anything, considering how far the conversation has devolved from the original topic.

You seem to be unwilling to consider an outcome where you are factually wrong to be acceptable. Just admit that your perception of the source material was wrong and then we can move on. We've discussed it plenty, and you've repeatedly been shown to be incorrect or misinformed.

 Abanshee wrote:

I'd rather take a bolt round than work for someone against my will.

Irrelevant to the point, which is that the Imperium treats humans far worse than the Tau do.

Is there any info on whether orks are capable of going against their nature at all? Could they, in theory, evolve on a societal and philosophical level or are they effectively biologically incapable to do so?

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Eldar see us as worse than monkeys. ‘Mon Keigh’ is obviously an IRL pun, but in universe means something close to ‘pests who need to be exterminated’.

They don’t really see any other race as people, and would happily exterminate all of them that get in their way if they could.

This is incorrect. There are groups who do (Frozen Stars etc) but they're explicitly an anomaly and many of the other Aeldari groups don't get along with them and think they're psychos.

Hecaton wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
Because, it's a terrible argument. Two wrongs don't make a right. Tau and CWE are arguably worse. Tau give you no other choice than to serve the Greater Good or die, while using your species as a indentured fighting force. Wow, so progressive and caring.

No, it's a great argument. Some things are less evil than others. The Tau are functionally a totalitarian oligarchy; it's still a morally better system than the Imperium has. The Tau give you that choice, they also don't force people to fight. The Imperium just kills aliens it finds - which is much worse. Civilian humans in Tau space are treated better than in the Imperium, the lore is consistent on this.

 Abanshee wrote:
CWE just don't even view us on the same level. They see us as monkeys and would gladly kill us if it meant serving their twisted ambitions. They betray us on a whim constantly and have actively helped birth a rape god into existence. Certainly, s progressive and caring outlook on the universe. Dark Eldar aren't even comparable to the Imperium, there just mindless psychopaths who're addicted to inflicting pain, rape, and torture at every turn they can.

The Dark Eldar are about as bad as the Imperium. The Imperium thrives off of torture, genocide, murder, and corruption - and they don't even get anything tangible out of it like the DE do! I'd suggest reading Redemption Corps if you want a taste of how the Sororitas are torture-happy psychopaths, just with lower tech and less creativity than the Drukhari.

And the DE are meaningless to the core discussion, which is that CWE are *not* as bad as you are claiming - they are made up of the Eldar who *left* rather than be involved in Slaanesh's birth. Interesting that you think they're still culpable for that - like collective guilt. But only one way.

 Abanshee wrote:
CWE and Tau are just as evil as the Imperium, if not more. Wrong sci-fi universe to be pulling this sort of card, pal.

No. You haven't provided any evidence of that other than stating you *wish* they were. Which says more about you than the setting.

 Abanshee wrote:

Also, you're upset that people disagree with you and have differing opinions/won't just automatically agree with you like a total NPC? Uh, what?

When their disagreement is explicitly based on ignoring the setting material in favor of what they already wanted, yeah.

I never wished anything, I simply stated "I thought that the Emperor worked with the Eldar" somewhere in text (just couldn't remember where). Also, the Dark Eldar are still worse than the Imperium they could become like their craftworld brothers, but just refuse to because they actively benefit from a society of suffering. Just because your doing it for a reason, doesn't mean your methods are humane at all. Anyways, this has been going on for a while now, so I'm going to politely end it here.

You're one hundred percent free to believe that the poor xenos did nothing wrong, but at the end of the day they're just as evil as everyone else. Just like I'm free to believe the Emperor did nothing wrong, LOL!

 BertBert wrote:
Is there any info on whether orks are capable of going against their nature at all? Could they, in theory, evolve on a societal and philosophical level or are they effectively biologically incapable to do so?

Tricky one. There’s no “primary source” I can think of. The closest is the original Xenology Book, which in an inherently uncertain canon is super uncertain canon? It’s noted Orks kept in isolation wither and die. They need Boyz around them. And the more Boyz, the fightier they become.

It’s widely speculated that they’re an ancient species. Certainly they were spread far and wide across the Galaxy before man got out his cradle. Which is strongly suggestive they either can’t, or have zero interest in, changing their ways.

 BertBert wrote:
Is there any info on whether orks are capable of going against their nature at all? Could they, in theory, evolve on a societal and philosophical level or are they effectively biologically incapable to do so?

They evolved in the early M30s which lead to the War of the Beast. The lower tiers were mostly the same but the higher up the chain the more intelligent the Orks got. They even sent "negotiators" to Terra when they demonstrated their power by teleporting an Attack Moon over the cradle of mankind and offered the Imperium submission under their Ork overlords as slaves.

 Abanshee wrote:


I never wished anything, I simply stated "I thought that the Emperor worked with the Eldar" somewhere in text (just couldn't remember where).

You pulled it out of thin air as a justification for why the Emperor wasn't a genocidal maniac; that's where the "wish" comes in.

 Abanshee wrote:

Also, the Dark Eldar are still worse than the Imperium they could become like their craftworld brothers, but just refuse to because they actively benefit from a society of suffering.

Irrelevant to the CWE. Also irrelevant for the Tau; I noticed you abandoned that line of conversation because it was starting to disprove what you were claiming.

 Abanshee wrote:
Just because your doing it for a reason, doesn't mean your methods are humane at all. Anyways, this has been going on for a while now, so I'm going to politely end it here.

You have not been polite at all.

 Abanshee wrote:
You're one hundred percent free to believe that the poor xenos did nothing wrong, but at the end of the day they're just as evil as everyone else. Just like I'm free to believe the Emperor did nothing wrong, LOL!

The difference is only one of us is right, and it's me. The Tau are rough but the Imperium is worse.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Orks are. Spesh if you accept the strong hint they’re a devolved/corrupted warrior species created by the Old Ones.

Then it’s literally no different to a gun. Its purpose is its purpose. Doesn’t make them benevolent, but firmly stops them being malevolent. Just a natural hazard of the Galaxy, no more “evil” than hard vacuum, a supernova or what have you.

They’re arguably unique in not being malevolent*, as they don’t get that what’s a good time for them is not a good time for everyone else, but they’re still not justified either

And they’re still pretty supremacist, given they penchant for purging things which they don’t consider to be sufficiently ’orky’.

Yeah they were created as a weapon, but they’re a pretty horrific one when you think about it.


*(though certain daemons have a similar mentality)

Thing is? They take slaves and work them beyond the point of endurance again not from malevolence, but because even a Weedy Grot is more resilient than a human. That to me strongly suggests it just doesn’t occur to them that slightly less demanding treatment might gain better results. They may only starve such a captive populace because they know starving humans will fight each other. And every Ork knows the more you fight, the stronger you get. So there’s a typically demented (by our standards alone) logic that the Orks may in fact be trying to get stronger slaves, but can’t comprehend, or care, that it’s never going to work.

 Abanshee wrote:
You're one hundred percent free to believe that the poor xenos did nothing wrong, but at the end of the day they're just as evil as everyone else. Just like I'm free to believe the Emperor did nothing wrong, LOL!

Nobody here has said that xenos did nothing wrong, stop making straw man arguments. Being less evil than the Imperium is not the same as not being evil and if you can't see the difference between the Tau and the Imperium you seriously need to ask some questions about your own morality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:
You have not been polite at all.

Which should surprise nobody, given this is someone who brags about "pissing off dakkadakka moderators and being a general nuisance" and posted a whole wall of text insulting all guard players because a TFG in their group played guard one time. How they haven't been banned yet for their repeated and blatant rule violations is baffling.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
Which should surprise nobody, given this is someone who brags about "pissing off dakkadakka moderators and being a general nuisance" and posted a whole wall of text insulting all guard players because a TFG in their group played guard one time. How they haven't been banned yet for their repeated and blatant rule violations is baffling.

Or even given a "time out" like has happened to me.

I know on the 40klore subreddit the head mod was banning people who said similar things about the Imperium, anybody showing proof of the infanticide, etc. But was being very sneaky about it, because they didn't want the smoke of being seen to take sides. But sometimes you get a situation like that.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
You're one hundred percent free to believe that the poor xenos did nothing wrong, but at the end of the day they're just as evil as everyone else. Just like I'm free to believe the Emperor did nothing wrong, LOL!

Nobody here has said that xenos did nothing wrong, stop making straw man arguments. Being less evil than the Imperium is not the same as not being evil and if you can't see the difference between the Tau and the Imperium you seriously need to ask some questions about your own morality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:
You have not been polite at all.

Which should surprise nobody, given this is someone who brags about "pissing off dakkadakka moderators and being a general nuisance" and posted a whole wall of text insulting all guard players because a TFG in their group played guard one time. How they haven't been banned yet for their repeated and blatant rule violations is baffling.

Don't forget "proudly since 2015". I love being evil to the mods, they enjoy punishing me. Mutual benefit, my man.

Hecaton wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Eldar see us as worse than monkeys. ‘Mon Keigh’ is obviously an IRL pun, but in universe means something close to ‘pests who need to be exterminated’.

They don’t really see any other race as people, and would happily exterminate all of them that get in their way if they could.

This is incorrect. There are groups who do (Frozen Stars etc) but they're explicitly an anomaly and many of the other Aeldari groups don't get along with them and think they're psychos.

It’s literally what the term means in universe. It’s defined in Eldar codicies amongst other places.

There’s plenty of monologues from individual Eldar from mainstream Craftworlds about wanting to wipe out various other species about the place as well.

Yes, most Eldar don’t go around actively trying to genocide everyone, but that has very little to do with any moral concerns (only other Eldar are people) and far more to do with the fact that it is objectively stupid for them to try since they’re by no means powerful enough to do it these days and if they attract too much attention or annoy the likes of the Imperium too much then they may well bite off more than they can chew (and the Imperium has destroyed Craftworlds before which did just that).

So yeah, obviously most Eldar don’t get on with the nutters who actually do try and exterminate everyone, but it’s because they’re dangerously stupid rather than because of any disagreement with other races being killed per se.

Doesn’t mean they don’t want to and wouldn’t if it were actually practicable and cost effective to do so (which it obviously is not).

Also, why set about provoking the Imperium when it’s such a useful, easily tricked bulwark against all the other nasties out there?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, why set about provoking the Imperium when it’s such a useful, easily tricked bulwark against all the other nasties out there?

Mainly because the Imperium feeds Chaos something crazy due to their ignorance, tyranny, etc and thus getting rid of it somehow would make things easier for everyone else. The Imperium isn't a bulwark against anything, it just makes everyone's lives worse (whether you're inside it or outside).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

It’s literally what the term means in universe. It’s defined in Eldar codicies amongst other places.

Wrong. It's based on a term for a cannibalistic and tyrannical species the Eldar encountered long ago. And given the Imperium's use of corpse starch, well... if the shoe fits...

Lord Zarkov wrote:
There’s plenty of monologues from individual Eldar from mainstream Craftworlds about wanting to wipe out various other species about the place as well.

There's more about them wishing the humans just weren't so damn short-sighted.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
Yes, most Eldar don’t go around actively trying to genocide everyone, but that has very little to do with any moral concerns (only other Eldar are people) and far more to do with the fact that it is objectively stupid for them to try since they’re by no means powerful enough to do it these days and if they attract too much attention or annoy the likes of the Imperium too much then they may well bite off more than they can chew (and the Imperium has destroyed Craftworlds before which did just that).

The Imperium doesn't have what it takes to destroy most Eldar craftworlds. And yes, it does have to do with moral concerns; the Eldar are not genocidal like the Imperium is, full stop. The Imperium is not all-powerful; it is woefully inefficient and corrupt. It has a lot more on its plate right now if the Eldar wanted to attack, but the Eldar aren't really into doing that for no reason.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
So yeah, obviously most Eldar don’t get on with the nutters who actually do try and exterminate everyone, but it’s because they’re dangerously stupid rather than because of any disagreement with other races being killed per se.

You haven't proven that, and in fact the opposite is true.

I disagree.

If the Imperium fell? That’s likely doom for the Craftworlders, as they’ve nothing like the numbers to fend off Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and a surge in open chaos worship as formerly Imperial worlds devolve into utter anarchy.

The Imperium is by no means something anyone would want to prop up if there was literally any other choice - but for the Eldar? I’d argue that’s exactly the case they’re dealing with. The Imperium is a threat to them. Of course it is. And there’s no doubt the Imperium would wipe out the Eldar without batting an eyelid if it could. But right now? It can’t spare the man power to go hunting down the Craftworlds, or Commoragh.

So you keep out the way as best you can. You nudge the strands of fate to aid their efforts in striking chaos, and take a more active role when necessary. But for now? The useful bulwark it remains.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Also, why set about provoking the Imperium when it’s such a useful, easily tricked bulwark against all the other nasties out there?

Indeed!

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, why set about provoking the Imperium when it’s such a useful, easily tricked bulwark against all the other nasties out there?

Mainly because the Imperium feeds Chaos something crazy due to their ignorance, tyranny, etc and thus getting rid of it somehow would make things easier for everyone else. The Imperium isn't a bulwark against anything, it just makes everyone's lives worse (whether you're inside it or outside).

From an Eldar perspective, they’re a lot easier to manipulate diplomatically than a lot of other enemies, are handy meat shields, and they quite objectively keep the orks in check. Though I’m sure the Eldar have equally ferocious theoretical debates about whether Imperium or Orks are the least worst (not that they actually have the ability to choose either).

Tbh having both Imperium and Orks existing and fighting each other down is probably where the Eldar want things…

On manipulating Orks vs Imperium?

Kind of the difference between cats and dogs. You can get a cat to do what you want. But it’s much easier with our idiot, fluffy, waggy tailed furry friends!

Hecaton wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

It’s literally what the term means in universe. It’s defined in Eldar codicies amongst other places.

Wrong. It's based on a term for a cannibalistic and tyrannical species the Eldar encountered long ago. And given the Imperium's use of corpse starch, well... if the shoe fits...

Lord Zarkov wrote:
There’s plenty of monologues from individual Eldar from mainstream Craftworlds about wanting to wipe out various other species about the place as well.

There's more about them wishing the humans just weren't so damn short-sighted.

It’s quite explicitly both those things. It’s based on a term for a race they did in fact wipe out in the past, and it’s got explicit overtones of ‘needing to be exterminated’. The sources are very clear on these.

And no, they’re not just about wishing humans weren’t short sighted (and not just humans). There’s some pretty explicit passages about them wishing they could wipe out humans and other races they see as pests. They were especially prevalent in 3rd Ed (when GW was worried people were seeing Eldar as ‘good guys’) but still occur more recently as well.

Hecaton wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:
Yes, most Eldar don’t go around actively trying to genocide everyone, but that has very little to do with any moral concerns (only other Eldar are people) and far more to do with the fact that it is objectively stupid for them to try since they’re by no means powerful enough to do it these days and if they attract too much attention or annoy the likes of the Imperium too much then they may well bite off more than they can chew (and the Imperium has destroyed Craftworlds before which did just that).

The Imperium doesn't have what it takes to destroy most Eldar craftworlds. And yes, it does have to do with moral concerns; the Eldar are not genocidal like the Imperium is, full stop. The Imperium is not all-powerful; it is woefully inefficient and corrupt. It has a lot more on its plate right now if the Eldar wanted to attack, but the Eldar aren't really into doing that for no reason.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
So yeah, obviously most Eldar don’t get on with the nutters who actually do try and exterminate everyone, but it’s because they’re dangerously stupid rather than because of any disagreement with other races being killed per se.

You haven't proven that, and in fact the opposite is true.

MDG has it right. It’s a risk balance case. On all sides.

The Imperium is not going to make a particular effort to go hunting down all the Craftworlds because it’s not worth it. The Imperium has frankly bigger fish to fry and the Eldar are much more likely to help it out than most of its other enemies. And if it did really try and destroy the Eldar it’d take substantial, potentially terminal, losses from its other enemies. So it doesn’t try.

But where the Eldar have been too much of a problem compared to other threats the Imperium has and does focus more attention on crushing them. They have destroyed weaker Craftworlds and wiped out particularly problematic Corsair havens and they have caused significant damage to some major Craftworlds.

Similarly the Eldar do not have anywhere near the firepower needed to destroy the Imperium and would be crushed if they tried (though they might succeed in a mutual kill by causing it to be overrun by other enemies, though that’s not a good outcome for the Eldar). Some Eldar factions did try and help the Imperium to destroy itself during the Heresy, but that did not go brilliantly well. They can play also the Imperium off against their other enemies and even team up sometimes against greater threats, which is of some use.

All in all the ALARP position of the Eldar and the Imperium vis a vis the other is essentially the status quo, as much as both would wish the other didn’t exist.

 Gert wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Orks are. Spesh if you accept the strong hint they’re a devolved/corrupted warrior species created by the Old Ones.

Then it’s literally no different to a gun. Its purpose is its purpose. Doesn’t make them benevolent, but firmly stops them being malevolent. Just a natural hazard of the Galaxy, no more “evil” than hard vacuum, a supernova or what have you.

I'd disagree in that Orks choose to be cruel to their captives. Indifference is bad, active cruelty is worse.

They can't control the urge to fight but they find it funny to feed things to squigs or to put a human in a cage and use it for target "practice".

Sorry dude, missed this post.

That’s a fair point, but again in their society? Harsh treatment makes you dead or makes you stronger. So they’re used to quite different outcomes from say, regular bearings, pit fights etc. I mean, when you can just go and get your arm stapled back on (or indeed, any Ork arm) if things get a bit too rough, it’s going to give you a very different world view to taking the arms off other, less robust species.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I disagree.

If the Imperium fell? That’s likely doom for the Craftworlders, as they’ve nothing like the numbers to fend off Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and a surge in open chaos worship as formerly Imperial worlds devolve into utter anarchy.

Nah. The Imperium is not a net benefit to the CWE. There'd be a new set of problems, sure, but overall not having the Imperium wanting to kill you would help. Also, there's probably be a lot *less* Chaos worship as you wouldn't have the Imperium driving people towards it.

It smacks too much of "Everyone else should be *grateful* the Imperium is around, and owes them a debt." Which isn't true lol.



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Lord Zarkov wrote:


It’s quite explicitly both those things. It’s based on a term for a race they did in fact wipe out in the past, and it’s got explicit overtones of ‘needing to be exterminated’. The sources are very clear on these.

I'm sure you've got a citation on that, rather than just wishful thinking? The 3e Eldar codex was the source I used.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

And no, they’re not just about wishing humans weren’t short sighted (and not just humans). There’s some pretty explicit passages about them wishing they could wipe out humans and other races they see as pests. They were especially prevalent in 3rd Ed (when GW was worried people were seeing Eldar as ‘good guys’) but still occur more recently as well.

For specific Eldar, sure. Not for CWE as a whole. I'm guessing you're imagining things to try to find ways to justify the Imperium's psychotic genocidal mannerisms.

Lord Zarkov wrote:


MDG has it right. It’s a risk balance case. On all sides.

Nope. The Imperium is not rational; it makes bad decisions constantly because they worship ignorance. The Imperium *has* made efforts to go hunting down Craftworlds, some successful, some unsuccessful.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
But where the Eldar have been too much of a problem compared to other threats the Imperium has and does focus more attention on crushing them. They have destroyed weaker Craftworlds and wiped out particularly problematic Corsair havens and they have caused significant damage to some major Craftworlds.

They've also genocided Exodites who weren't hurting anyone just because they could. The Imperium is a mad dog, not a rational actor.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
Some Eldar factions did try and help the Imperium to destroy itself during the Heresy, but that did not go brilliantly well.

Let's clarify that that's after the Imperium showed them a genocidal amount of danger. And they know the emperor's a murderous prick and he's running that show.

Regardless, though, the Imperium is not the same thing as humanity - the Eldar don't want to exterminate humanity, they just want the Imperium to go away and stop trying to murder them, but are dealing with the reality of the situation.

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I disagree.

If the Imperium fell? That’s likely doom for the Craftworlders, as they’ve nothing like the numbers to fend off Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and a surge in open chaos worship as formerly Imperial worlds devolve into utter anarchy.

Nah. The Imperium is not a net benefit to the CWE. There'd be a new set of problems, sure, but overall not having the Imperium wanting to kill you would help. Also, there's probably be a lot *less* Chaos worship as you wouldn't have the Imperium driving people towards it.

It smacks too much of "Everyone else should be *grateful* the Imperium is around, and owes them a debt." Which isn't true lol.

If the Imperium collapsed I don't think many worlds would become utopias. Indeed many worlds likely rely heavily on food and resources being moved within the Imperium. Take away the assurance of it all being one entity and fragment it into individual sectors which have zero fear of a group of Marines/Inquisition or other Imperial body appearing from the Warp and you could easily find that many systems become far more war torn or have to toil like crazy under the yoke of labour to afford extortionate and unregulated trade deals.

With no black ships taking psychers to the Emperor nor Inquisition you could easily find that whilst there'd be a period of calm; there'd quickly be an ever growing rise of warp incidents. Just with zero centralised coordinated response. Don't forget many people, even up to governors don't really know much about the Warp. So many of them could easily fall prey to it without even a hint of what it might mean.


This isn't to say that the Imperium is a Paragon of Virtue or anything; but the sheer size and logistical setup of it (even broken and faltering as it is) is still a vast power that lets it project its influence outside of itself and protect itself.


Take all that away and other Xenos would rise up fast and you'd have just as much if not more war. With a big downside that you'd lose one of the biggest forces fighting against other major forces. Craftworlders would likely have ot hide even more because they lack the numbers. They might have to rely on manipulating a much wider range of species to protect themselves instead of one Imperium and humans.



The Imperium is a huge danger, but the fact that the Eldar haven't sought to destroy it and have indeed helped to maintain even the Emperor, suggests that they realise that right now, in the here and now of the setting, its better to have the danger of the united Imperium than a fragmented human race warring with itself and everyone and offering zero buffer to the likes of Ork Waarghs or the insane threat of the Tyranids; let alone a Chaos Crusade





Who know though; if the Imperium fell perhaps it would be the kick that caused it to shed a lot of useless administrative and religious barriers. Falling could cause systems to push hard for technological superiority and suddenly they'd have an explosion of technological gain and you end up with a new Crusade of sorts. One where the new Imperium has a single military force united under one banner; where they push new tech; where they use everything they have at their best. Suddenly you could have an even more dangerous group of humans who are projecting their influence and not in-fighting nor crippling themselves with religious elements or strange devotions or even just things like a fear of xenotech.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sorry dude, missed this post.

That’s a fair point, but again in their society? Harsh treatment makes you dead or makes you stronger. So they’re used to quite different outcomes from say, regular bearings, pit fights etc. I mean, when you can just go and get your arm stapled back on (or indeed, any Ork arm) if things get a bit too rough, it’s going to give you a very different world view to taking the arms off other, less robust species.

In Ork society, sure but Ork society only applies to Orks. They know humans are fragile beings compared to themselves but they don't care, in fact, they find it hilarious and a source of entertainment in the same way people torture ants.
They also very much practice racial superiority in their culture even if it is as simple as "Orks is best cos Orks is best". A Space Marine might be a good scrap but in the end, it's not an Ork and is therefore inferior.

Yes and no.

They do know regular ‘umies are weedy, but Beaky Boyz put up a better fight. But they’re all still fair game to the Boyz.

My argument here is they just don’t comprehend that other species aren’t as easily patched up as Orks.

Consider. Whilst by no means guaranteed, a given Boy can have all their limbs, then their head chopped off, and have at least some chance of being put back together, no worse for wear. In fact, arguably better for the wear.

Humans can probably survive a single limb being removed. The more violent that removal the lower the chance of said survival due to shock and blood loss and that. But lop our bonce off? And that’s it. We’ve maybe a handful of minutes thinking “oh, arses, that’s me dead then” before we pass.

Orks lack that perspective. All they know, all they care about, is Ork Kultur. So for them, the havoc and suffering they wreak on other species just doesn’t register.

I'd argue they very much do understand how fragile humans are. Orks aren't stupid (well they are but not that stupid) and they do understand that other species are different from them.
Orks have an immense story culture that prepares Boyz for what they might fight even if all the stories end with "But Orks are better so we'll win anyway". They know the Aeldari are tricksy wizard types and that humans are weedy but gutsy and dangerous in numbers. It's almost like a form of genetic memory.

Orks don't care about other cultures but they do care how the enemy fights and what to look out for.

I think orks are more than capable of cruel actions, just look at how they treat gitz let alone how they treat other races. An ork 100% can be mean, cruel, spiteful, nasty and all. Even whilst still being part of Ork Culture they can still be both nicer and nastier than standard.

Part of that is certainly understanding how fragile other races are and how one can be cruel to them. Orks might not care, so within their own morality its likely not an issue. However by our judgement of morality it is an issue.

Orks could choose to be more like klingons - honour, nobility and such whilst still embracing their warlike social elements to their fullest.

However Orks aren't. Even when they are being nice its often with ulterior motives. Eg Bale-Eye - Yarrik - was only saved because the Ork in charge of the Waaargh could see how valuable Yarrik was alive as an opponent. Any smart warboss realises that maintaining control over vast numbers of orks means giving them good fights and that means having good opponents to create those fights. Otherwise your boyz will get bored and at best drift away and at worst fight each other and you and suddenly your whole waargh falls apart

I think it’s more nuanced.

Due to Oddboyz and their impact, most Orks likely have little to no idea about biology. They know enough that if you’ve lost a leg, you can grab it and hop over to a Doc, or just hop over to a Doc and get a (hopefully sweet) bionik replacement.

There’s a simplicity to the standard Boy’s life and outlook, fully reinforced by their wider society, which prevents them think “hey, maybe there’s an actual difference between us and them”, instead focussing them purely on “well, if you can’t survive someone cutting your head off for a laugh, you’re just not ‘ard enough”.

Hence I strongly argue Orks are not actively malevolent as we might consider it. Because their entire society is utterly alien to our minds.

That for me is where 40K really gets its narrative licks in. Creating truly alien mindsets for us to try and wrap our idiot heads around.


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Also? On the galactic scale when it comes to a game of “Find The Bunghole”, you need to look at it in the altogether.

Because nobody is truly innocent. At all. Even the Tau have taken worlds by force of arms, causing directly or indirectly death and/or suffering to untold innocent individuals.

But if we zoom into individual lives? Is a member of a PDF picking up their Lasgun to defend home and hearth guilty of the wider crimes The Imperium has committed? Even if the attackers they’re hoping to help repulse are fully justified in their own actions?

Then consider every species is heavily subject to its own form of propaganda. Except Nids. And maybe Orks. Orks only kinda.

Gosh, it’s almost as if the wider picture is surprisingly nuanced!

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I disagree.

If the Imperium fell? That’s likely doom for the Craftworlders, as they’ve nothing like the numbers to fend off Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and a surge in open chaos worship as formerly Imperial worlds devolve into utter anarchy.

Nah. The Imperium is not a net benefit to the CWE. There'd be a new set of problems, sure, but overall not having the Imperium wanting to kill you would help. Also, there's probably be a lot *less* Chaos worship as you wouldn't have the Imperium driving people towards it.

It smacks too much of "Everyone else should be *grateful* the Imperium is around, and owes them a debt." Which isn't true lol.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Zarkov wrote:


It’s quite explicitly both those things. It’s based on a term for a race they did in fact wipe out in the past, and it’s got explicit overtones of ‘needing to be exterminated’. The sources are very clear on these.

I'm sure you've got a citation on that, rather than just wishful thinking? The 3e Eldar codex was the source I used.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

And no, they’re not just about wishing humans weren’t short sighted (and not just humans). There’s some pretty explicit passages about them wishing they could wipe out humans and other races they see as pests. They were especially prevalent in 3rd Ed (when GW was worried people were seeing Eldar as ‘good guys’) but still occur more recently as well.

For specific Eldar, sure. Not for CWE as a whole. I'm guessing you're imagining things to try to find ways to justify the Imperium's psychotic genocidal mannerisms.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
Some Eldar factions did try and help the Imperium to destroy itself during the Heresy, but that did not go brilliantly well.

Let's clarify that that's after the Imperium showed them a genocidal amount of danger. And they know the emperor's a murderous prick and he's running that show.

Regardless, though, the Imperium is not the same thing as humanity - the Eldar don't want to exterminate humanity, they just want the Imperium to go away and stop trying to murder them, but are dealing with the reality of the situation.

Let’s take some quotes from 3rd Ed Codex Eldar shall we since you cited it?

“3rd Ed Codex Eldar” wrote:It can be surmised that the word mon-keigh refers to any non-Eldar species the Eldar seem inferior, in need of extermination.

Emphasis mine.

“3rd Ed Codex Eldar” wrote:Once more you upstart mon-keigh (subject spits) shall kneel before our power! This time we shall not be so lenient! We will exterminate you, every world, every vessel, every one of you! Eldrad has seen the stars stained red with your blood, and it pleases him!
You think us weak, but we will be your doom, children of Earth

Emphasis mine again.

“3rd Ed Codex Eldar” wrote:”There can be no peace while alien feet still tread on Ath-Ethon!” Response to the surrender of the Fourth Imperial Garrison, Rigal IV

The designer’s notes when that book came out were also pretty explicit that ‘yes, the Eldar are also the bad guys’ with a bit of a chastisement for people who think they’re not.

The Imperium is abhorrent and unjustifiable. ‘Most brutal regime imaginable’ and all... But ‘less awful than the Imperium’ is such an incredibly low bar to clear that there’s plenty of space for genocidally abhorrent regimes above it.

Frankly ’they oppose the Imperium so they must be justified’ is just as false and dangerous as ‘the Imperium is necessary’, and equally misses the joke of the setting…

Hecaton wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:


MDG has it right. It’s a risk balance case. On all sides.

Nope. The Imperium is not rational; it makes bad decisions constantly because they worship ignorance. The Imperium *has* made efforts to go hunting down Craftworlds, some successful, some unsuccessful.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
But where the Eldar have been too much of a problem compared to other threats the Imperium has and does focus more attention on crushing them. They have destroyed weaker Craftworlds and wiped out particularly problematic Corsair havens and they have caused significant damage to some major Craftworlds.

They've also genocided Exodites who weren't hurting anyone just because they could. The Imperium is a mad dog, not a rational actor.

I’ve cut this bit out of sequence to address it separately.

‘The Imperium’ is not one monolothic decision making body. Certainly not since the Heresy, and realistically not since the start of the Great Crusade when fleets went off not under the Emperor’s personal oversight.

That’s actually part of its problem. It’s made up of a multitude of people, making greedy, selfish decisions with minimal coordination with others. And people of course indoctrinated into on of many variants of a truly awful ideology.

But the individual people who manage to thrive in such a brutal environment are generally not stupid (sometimes yes, but not generally). Awful, callous and ignorant yes, but not stupid.

So they’re generally going to make decisions that they think will work out to their benefit (note, *not* necessarily (or at all) to *the Imperium’s* benefit). It’s overall leaders can at best set a direction of travel. Not poking the nearby bear that generally keeps to itself but would love to maul you if it could is a good way of minimising risk to yourself. Though if it’s rabid and attacking you anyway you’re absolutely going to try to kill it if you can. And slaughtering some seemingly abandoned cubs so you can move into their cave and start mining it seems positively beneficial.

Similarly local leaders and commanders are generally going to avoid taking on Craftworld unless really annoyed by it because it’s a really risky thing to do. But they will happily slaughter exodites to settle or asset strip their planet if they’re not obviously protected since it’s seemingly easy for great personal benefit.

There’s no greater plan, just personal selfishness and (abhorrent) politics.

Lord Zarkov wrote:


Let’s take some quotes from 3rd Ed Codex Eldar shall we since you cited it?

“3rd Ed Codex Eldar” wrote:It can be surmised that the word mon-keigh refers to any non-Eldar species the Eldar seem inferior, in need of extermination.

Emphasis mine.

In-universe quote from a human report on the Eldar; that's their opinion. It's not objective truth.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

“3rd Ed Codex Eldar” wrote:Once more you upstart mon-keigh (subject spits) shall kneel before our power! This time we shall not be so lenient! We will exterminate you, every world, every vessel, every one of you! Eldrad has seen the stars stained red with your blood, and it pleases him!
You think us weak, but we will be your doom, children of Earth

Emphasis mine again.

Right, because a captive Eldar who's being tortured is going to have such good things to say about the humans... XD

Lord Zarkov wrote:

“3rd Ed Codex Eldar” wrote:”There can be no peace while alien feet still tread on Ath-Ethon!” Response to the surrender of the Fourth Imperial Garrison, Rigal IV

They're telling them to get the feth off their planet. Which is not exactly a sign of what you think it is.

Lord Zarkov wrote:


The designer’s notes when that book came out were also pretty explicit that ‘yes, the Eldar are also the bad guys’ with a bit of a chastisement for people who think they’re not.

Citation on that? You're 0/3 for what you've been claiming so far.

Lord Zarkov wrote:


The Imperium is abhorrent and unjustifiable. ‘Most brutal regime imaginable’ and all... But ‘less awful than the Imperium’ is such an incredibly low bar to clear that there’s plenty of space for genocidally abhorrent regimes above it.

Frankly ’they oppose the Imperium so they must be justified’ is just as false and dangerous as ‘the Imperium is necessary’, and equally misses the joke of the setting…

Never said anything like that, just said they weren't as horrible as the Imperium. Frankly, if you're a random human on an unaligned world, the Tau and CWE are more benign towards you than the Imperium is.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
I’ve cut this bit out of sequence to address it separately.

‘The Imperium’ is not one monolothic decision making body. Certainly not since the Heresy, and realistically not since the start of the Great Crusade when fleets went off not under the Emperor’s personal oversight.

That’s actually part of its problem. It’s made up of a multitude of people, making greedy, selfish decisions with minimal coordination with others. And people of course indoctrinated into on of many variants of a truly awful ideology.

But the individual people who manage to thrive in such a brutal environment are generally not stupid (sometimes yes, but not generally). Awful, callous and ignorant yes, but not stupid.

No, they're often stupid. Read about Goge Vandire.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Similarly local leaders and commanders are generally going to avoid taking on Craftworld unless really annoyed by it because it’s a really risky thing to do. But they will happily slaughter exodites to settle or asset strip their planet if they’re not obviously protected since it’s seemingly easy for great personal benefit.

No, oftentimes they'll attack Eldar because they think the Emperor is talking to them or whatever. Not rational actors.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
There’s no greater plan, just personal selfishness and (abhorrent) politics.

The corruption and dysfunction isn't a bug, it's an inevitable feature of a society as debased as the Imperium.