LunarSol wrote: Teaser is lacking a hook beyond liking the characters involved, but it doesn't look particularly bad, just no real idea what its about.
I mean, the hook looks like the charaters people like have been sent on a fake mission to 1) kill each other and 2) kill the survivors and take them off the board. It's sort of flat out stated in the dialog. Someone is trying to kill them. They are going to find out who and kill them back.
Maybe there is some major leading character they want to appear in it but want it to be a big reveal surprise. So they aren't in the trailers and aren't even in the title even if their name is going to be plastered all over it once a certain point is reached.
I mean, modern Thunderbolts literally started as "criminals being let out to do jobs for the government with shock collars to disable them if they don't follow orders" so.... yes.
I mean, modern Thunderbolts literally started as "criminals being let out to do jobs for the government with shock collars to disable them if they don't follow orders" so.... yes.
I mean, modern Thunderbolts literally started as "criminals being let out to do jobs for the government with shock collars to disable them if they don't follow orders" so.... yes.
Fair enough - I had never heard of them so
They were originally a team of super villains pretending to be heroes. They later got rebooted during the Civil War era as a pretty overt lift of the Suicide Squad. They're not a very consistent concept really. Lots of different takes on the team, but usually some collection of morally grey characters.
I mean, modern Thunderbolts literally started as "criminals being let out to do jobs for the government with shock collars to disable them if they don't follow orders" so.... yes.
Fair enough - I had never heard of them so
They were originally a team of super villains pretending to be heroes. They later got rebooted during the Civil War era as a pretty overt lift of the Suicide Squad. They're not a very consistent concept really. Lots of different takes on the team, but usually some collection of morally grey characters.
But it really doesn't look bad. I seem to recall Winter Soldier being decent for like 80% of its run time, so if they can match that, it's going to be a small step for Mankind, but a great step for Disney.
Looks decent enough. As mediocre as Black Widow was, David Harbour and Florence Pugh were both pretty good in it, so more of them is a good start. Definitely looks more like a "filler" style movie than one dealing with whatever the next Marvel phase is supposed to be about now (I assume Doom).
Trailers really need to get over the slowed-down version of old pop song thing they've been doing for a while, though. It's starting to get annoying.
I don't understand the concept of "filler movies" with the MCU.
How many movies in Marvels phase 1-3 (23 total movies) dealt with the infinity saga?
Like... we could say something along the lines of
Phase 1 had:
Captain America had the cosmic Cube. Not that it was revealed to be the space stone yet.
Avengers had Loki as an agent of Thanos.
Phase 2:
Thor: The Dark World had the reality stone, though it wasn't revealed to be as such until the post credits.
GotG had the power stone and is about Thanos's hunt for the stones.
Age of Ultron had the Mind Stone. Isn't about the Mind Stone.
Phase 3:
Dr Strange reveals the Time Stone, isn't about the time stone.
Captain Marvel has the space stone, isn't really about the infinity saga.
Infinity War and End Game.
9 out of 23 movies over 13 years. 5 of those 9 just had cameos of artifacts that mattered to the over all plot or the artifacts were central to an entirely different plot with no individual direct plot points towards the broader story. 2 of them were the actual story the whole thing was building towards.
The big secret to the MCU has always been that the movies aren't really connected in their actual runtime. Almost all the continuity was handled in the post credit scenes. The only things you generally needed to see was either prior films in the same franchise or the tentpole Avengers films.
Civil War is probably the exception to this, which kind of turns Cap's films into a required viewing, probably more than anything stone related. Truthfully, part of why Infinity War works so well is just a result of it being where Thanos gets all the stones. Most of the setup, is about setting up the characters, so we can see how they react to a Thanos level threat.
I thought it said Thunderbirds, so imagine my disappointment.
This season's trailer format is trash also but at least we're out of that season where every trailer opened on a desert with just single notes on a piano playing?
If it were Bob, Agent of Hydra, why would he be in a film set in the Earth-616 universe instead of Deadpool's Earth-10005 universe? Besides, The Sentry (aka Robert "Bob" Reynolds) being in the film wasn't exactly a secret.
If it were Bob, Agent of Hydra, why would he be in a film set in the Earth-616 universe instead of Deadpool's Earth-10005 universe? Besides, The Sentry (aka Robert "Bob" Reynolds) being in the film wasn't exactly a secret.
I’ve paid attention to like no news from this movie other than I think one posting showing off members of the team from I don’t remember how long ago. Also I’m not sure I even know who Sentry Bob. I just saw a normal looking guy in the trailer call himself Bob and thought “Bob Bob? The Bob? Weird if that’s Bob in This movie and not Deadpool.”
If it were Bob, Agent of Hydra, why would he be in a film set in the Earth-616 universe instead of Deadpool's Earth-10005 universe? Besides, The Sentry (aka Robert "Bob" Reynolds) being in the film wasn't exactly a secret.
I’ve paid attention to like no news from this movie other than I think one posting showing off members of the team from I don’t remember how long ago. Also I’m not sure I even know who Sentry Bob. I just saw a normal looking guy in the trailer call himself Bob and thought “Bob Bob? The Bob? Weird if that’s Bob in This movie and not Deadpool.”
The Sentry was originally going to be played by Steven Yeun until the SAG-AFTRA strike caused scheduling problems. The character's background has him (and the whole world) 'forgetting' he was the Sentry and using his real name Bob (the diminutive of his first name 'Robert') Reynolds. He was created in 2000 and seems to have been used regularly by Marvel since then.
The movie looks fun. That's all I require. Leaning into the likability of Pugh and Harbour is a good call. I think Bucky and evil cap will fit well as foils to them thematicallly. Overall pretty excited for it. Doesn't seem to take itself to seriously.
Hulksmash wrote: The movie looks fun. That's all I require. Leaning into the likability of Pugh and Harbour is a good call. I think Bucky and evil cap will fit well as foils to them thematicallly. Overall pretty excited for it. Doesn't seem to take itself to seriously.
Yup, this looks fun, and it helps that we've already had setups for almost all of the characters involved, so they can just get on with the movie.
Also, poster is here for those who care about such things. Sadly spoilt by overly digitally-processed execution, but a cool twist on the usual 'pile of faces' movie poster concept, given the characters involved.
Seeing The Falcon and the Winter Soldier looks like it's going to be very beneficial to this movie, much like Wandavision was almost a prerequisite for Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness. I've seen both shows, but it's kind of unfortunate that those who don't want to pay for Disney+ just won't have that added context, which (at least for the aforementioned Dr. Strange movie) very much helped with setting up at least one of the main characters and their motivations.
ZergSmasher wrote: Seeing The Falcon and the Winter Soldier looks like it's going to be very beneficial to this movie, much like Wandavision was almost a prerequisite for Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness. I've seen both shows, but it's kind of unfortunate that those who don't want to pay for Disney+ just won't have that added context, which (at least for the aforementioned Dr. Strange movie) very much helped with setting up at least one of the main characters and their motivations.
Mostly the kids though even that is pretty heavily explained in film and in a lot of ways the heel turn is a more natural extension of Endgame than WandaVision.
The original script for MoM is funny. A lot of people are mad we didn't get it because Wanda is handled a bit better in it..... but everything else is handled so much worse.
Who said anything about "big"? I'm not sure what your point is. We're talking about people who don't consume every bit of MCU, which is actually a lot, and how they won't be familiar with many of the characters that have been introduced in other products.
The appeal of this movie is a bunch of flawed characters dressed up to look like characters from more successful movies.
Might be too self-referential / meta for me to appreciate as anything other than the deeply ironic lack of self-awareness on the part of the producers. Might hate watch it.
Ahtman wrote: Who said anything about "big"? I'm not sure what your point is. We're talking about people who don't consume every bit of MCU, which is actually a lot, and how they won't be familiar with many of the characters that have been introduced in other products.
I meant its probably the biggest thing he's been in. Even then, I had kind of forgotten myself.
Ahtman wrote: Who said anything about "big"? I'm not sure what your point is. We're talking about people who don't consume every bit of MCU, which is actually a lot, and how they won't be familiar with many of the characters that have been introduced in other products.
I don't think there's anything that can be done about that if you want a team-up movie. It's not that many more sources than the first Avengers movie. Black Widow and Falcon and Winter Soldier cover most of the characters. Bucky has a bit of a longer history, so Falcon and Winter Soldier benefits from additional viewing as well. Throw in the second Ant-Man and you have a solid understanding of the major characters.
Civil War threw a lot more into the mix, even if you give it the benefit of not counting the big names everyone knew by the time.
Ahtman wrote: Who said anything about "big"? I'm not sure what your point is. We're talking about people who don't consume every bit of MCU, which is actually a lot, and how they won't be familiar with many of the characters that have been introduced in other products.
I don't think there's anything that can be done about that if you want a team-up movie. It's not that many more sources than the first Avengers movie. Black Widow and Falcon and Winter Soldier cover most of the characters. Bucky has a bit of a longer history, so Falcon and Winter Soldier benefits from additional viewing as well. Throw in the second Ant-Man and you have a solid understanding of the major characters.
Civil War threw a lot more into the mix, even if you give it the benefit of not counting the big names everyone knew by the time.
I am not saying that they shouldn't have made the movie or that it will be terrible because it is geared a bit more toward fans, just that some viewers are going to go in less knowledgeable than others.
Luckily they have an ace writing team that'll no doubt make the characters approachable to both new and knowledgeable audiences.
Silliness aside, I don't disagree with you about the benefit of watching other stuff to get a better experience out of this one. I just don't think you can get around that. A cinematic universe or series of movies or multi-season show is always going to rely on an established foundation and won't rehash too much, not the least because at some point it'll grow so large that rehashes are no longer practical.
Disney + had these things they were releaseing called Legends. They were like... 5-8 minute little things that caught you up on who a character was just before the new thing came out.
Unfortunately they appear to have stopped doing that. (No new episodes of Legends for Agatha All Along). But I imagine they were/are very useful for people who don't remember all the details of all the movies/shows like I do.
I'd feel better if I had a sense of what the plot is, but there's a lot of nice stuntwork in the trailers and a lot of these guys have been super fun in prior films. I'll almost certainly see it, but I have no expectation of quality currently.
LunarSol wrote: I'd feel better if I had a sense of what the plot is, ...
Based on the trailer, the plot is essentially - Valentina wants to assemble her own Avengers under more direct government (or at least, her)control, brings in a group of whacky individuals conveniently introduced in other MCU titles, sends them on a mission and hijinks ensue.
Which is pretty standard stuff for this sort of movie, but works if the cast is right... and the cast for this looks like a hell of a lot of fun. So I'm here for it.
LunarSol wrote: I'd feel better if I had a sense of what the plot is, ...
Based on the trailer, the plot is essentially - Valentina wants to assemble her own Avengers under more direct government (or at least, her)control, brings in a group of whacky individuals conveniently introduced in other MCU titles, sends them on a mission and hijinks ensue.
Which is pretty standard stuff for this sort of movie, but works if the cast is right... and the cast for this looks like a hell of a lot of fun. So I'm here for it.
Thats not the impression I get. The impression I get is that she has a bunch of agents she has been making use of separately but they are becoming a problem and she has managed to get a hold of an asset that has made them obsolete. Send the problem children on a mission to take each other out and have the new asset clean up the rest.
They realize they are being played, team up to get her back for trying to kill them all.
Thats not the impression I get. The impression I get is that she has a bunch of agents she has been making use of separately but they are becoming a problem and she has managed to get a hold of an asset that has made them obsolete. Send the problem children on a mission to take each other out and have the new asset clean up the rest.
They realize they are being played, team up to get her back for trying to kill them all.
In that case I hope they are able to kill at least half off.
That reluctance is kind of understandable though. One of the various issues the MCU had in recent times is that the big names people followed for a decade have had their run. And with it the movies (and shows) lose draw. Between substantial technical issues and the meandering multiverse metaplot (is there even a metaplot?) that has yet to get people invested, I don't think that's something they can really afford right.
To me it looks like they might finally have a winner on their hand with this team up. Would be pretty ironic if they decided to start bumping off characters with this movie.
The Multiverse approach probably creates loads of sub-meta-plots. The thing its its scattershot through so many different series that you likely can't spot it unless you keep up with everything until they do the "everyone teams up to take it on" production where it all pulls together.
Geifer wrote: That reluctance is kind of understandable though. One of the various issues the MCU had in recent times is that the big names people followed for a decade have had their run. And with it the movies (and shows) lose draw. Between substantial technical issues and the meandering multiverse metaplot (is there even a metaplot?) that has yet to get people invested, I don't think that's something they can really afford right.
To me it looks like they might finally have a winner on their hand with this team up. Would be pretty ironic if they decided to start bumping off characters with this movie.
In the 2010s Marvel Comics did a version of "Crisis on Infinite Earths" called "Secret Wars" no relation to the 80s toy tie in. In it the Marvel multiverse was destroyed until the 616 Earth and Ultimate Earth were the last two standing.
It had a neat gimmick, universes would collide and destroy each other, but you could save yours by destroying the other universe. Creating agonizing choices for the Avengers.
Point being, Marvel announced there's a Secret Wars film coming, so it seems the meta plot is set up the multiverse then KA-BOOM! it.
Of course in the comics it's already back, but that's another story.
Hmm, yeah. I suppose that might work if they pitted this and the X-Men universe against each other. Well, at least if they had done anything with the latter. We'd need characters we're invested in for that kind of conflict to really work, Every instance of multiversal nonsense so far has been pretty shrugworthy. Who's coming out on top? The characters we know or their multiversal counterparts who've only been introduced in this movie? Yeah.
Overread wrote: The Multiverse approach probably creates loads of sub-meta-plots. The thing its its scattershot through so many different series that you likely can't spot it unless you keep up with everything until they do the "everyone teams up to take it on" production where it all pulls together.
I kept up with everything and I don't know where we're headed.
Secret Wars is barely a multiverse story. It's remarkably standalone and doesn't require a lot of set up to work. What it does need and we've been lacking, is establishing characters for it to focus on, which they've really just struggled with. A big part of that is the loss of Boseman, Sony getting weird with Spidey but they haven't found their core stars the way they were able to with the first Avengers film.
I do think the RDJ reveal was probably in the cards from the beginning. It's not what I want, but he absolutely fits the role Doom plays in the story and has the right emotional baggage attached to make it work. It's just a shame things fell so far off the rails they had to play that card so far in advance its not going to have quite the right impact.
I want Red Guardian to go crouching dumbgak, hidden dragon. That's all I want, Disney. You hear? I want the old fat guy to beat the absolute stuffing out of some mooks in a hallway.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Marvel films, like Marvel comics, have gotten way too timid about killing characters which robs things of stakes.
To be fair, that's not a problem exclusive to Marvel...
I'd love to see a reboot of both Marvel and DC's comics universes that starts over from the beginning and has characters aging, dying, and being replaced on a sensible timeline, instead of just freezing them in their 40's while entire new generations of characters grow up around them. Sadly, I think they've both painted themselves into a corner by hanging onto the original characters for so long.
RaptorusRex wrote: I want Red Guardian to go crouching dumbgak, hidden dragon. That's all I want, Disney. You hear? I want the old fat guy to beat the absolute stuffing out of some mooks in a hallway.
I'd be reasonably comfortable in thinking each character is likely to get at least one combat moment where they get to shine - we've even seen one of Bucky's in the trailer.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Marvel films, like Marvel comics, have gotten way too timid about killing characters which robs things of stakes.
To be fair, that's not a problem exclusive to Marvel...
I'd love to see a reboot of both Marvel and DC's comics universes that starts over from the beginning and has characters aging, dying, and being replaced on a sensible timeline, instead of just freezing them in their 40's while entire new generations of characters grow up around them. Sadly, I think they've both painted themselves into a corner by hanging onto the original characters for so long.
Even if they age and die, they've rebooted most of them so many times now. Even in the films there's, what, 4 or 5 different Spidermen continuities (not counting the Spiderverse film which has countless spiders)
Even if they age and die, they've rebooted most of them so many times now. Even in the films there's, what, 4 or 5 different Spidermen continuities (not counting the Spiderverse film which has countless spiders)
Spiderman ran afoul of Sony contractually having to keep making movies or lose the license. At least with the latest incarnation they finally realised that they don't actually have to start yet another reboot with a variation of the origin story...
Marvel got clever with that one as well with the Norton Hulk movie, by condensing the origin story into the opening credits instead of doing it all again so soon after the previous Hulk movie.
To be fair they tried torch passing repeatedly, but people throw a pitch fit and demand Their version of the character back. They juggle it as much as they can to try and keep as many people invested as they can.
And that's fair... but it's also a side effect of keeping those characters around for so long that fans can't accept anyone else in the role.
Marvel actually acknowledged a similar issue with the original X-men comics... the idea was originally for the X-men to be a rotating cast, so that they could use it as a platform to play with new ideas, rather than being locked into a specific team. But then the starter team proved to be popular, and they would up keeping them around for long enough that people got upset when they were swapped out for other characters, so they had to keep them around.
Bruce Wayne getting too old for this gak and passing the mantle on to Dick, or Barbara, or some other newcomer would have been a fantastic direction for the Batcomics 40 years ago... but Bruce has been Batman for so long now, and they've teased his removal and then pulled away the football so many times now that they're pretty much stuck with an eternally 40-something year old Bruce Wayne being Batman forever.
And the fear of permanently killing off characters across the board with both companies makes any character death meaningless, because from the moment someone dies you're just waiting to see how they bring them back.
That's a little different, though. In the comics, villains aren't killed because it would leave the writers having to come up with even more new baddies than they already have to. When you have to pump out a story a month for the next 30 years, you need a rogue's gallery you can return to.
That's not as much of an issue for a movie series. If you're only going to get half a dozen movies out of a superhero before they age out of the role, it's going to be far more interesting to keep introducing new villains instead of, say, wasting a second movie on Black Manta...
Thing is, I would agree except they killed Red Skull in Cap's first movie, Zola the next, etc. Thus, we have a situation where a suitless Zemo is the only really major C.A villain running around at current and Sidewinder of all characters is a headliner.
I think part of the issue is that they keep going for big ultimate films. Arch nemesis; world/universe ending storylines and so forth.
The big showstoppers is all that hollywood is focused on right now for the most part.
Honestly whilst I feel Batman has latched onto Joker WAY too much; I do have to also hold up Batman as an example of where they have often dipped into lesser threats, esp in the older films. You don't have to end the world to have a solid adventure story with lots of action and such.
Of course if in the first and second films you've had your hero already save all the universe then yeah you've set yourself up for a problem that you escalated so fast that you've nothing left save a reboot/alternate timeline/whatever the heck the multiverse does
Overread wrote: I think part of the issue is that they keep going for big ultimate films. Arch nemesis; world/universe ending storylines and so forth.
The big showstoppers is all that hollywood is focused on right now for the most part.
Honestly whilst I feel Batman has latched onto Joker WAY too much; I do have to also hold up Batman as an example of where they have often dipped into lesser threats, esp in the older films. You don't have to end the world to have a solid adventure story with lots of action and such.
Of course if in the first and second films you've had your hero already save all the universe then yeah you've set yourself up for a problem that you escalated so fast that you've nothing left save a reboot/alternate timeline/whatever the heck the multiverse does
This is true, too. I just want a Captain America that has two-bit philosophical dialogues as he fights, ala the "FEEL MY GRIP ZEMO" page.
Killing off villains was less of a concern back when the likelihood of having enough movies where reusing would matter was even a fleeting concern.
As for comics, the issue is really that there's no right retirement age for comic heroes and having your protagonists efforts end in death isn't particularly endearing for their successors. Never giving up is most of the appeal, so its hard to tell a story where they do and their fans absolutely do not want to believe they're getting old either.
It's also just really hard to give successors a compelling origin story tied to their hero identity when they inherited it. Explaining another character's origin to explain the next gets wildly complicated and hard to see to new readers.
Nightwing is probably the ultimate example of the issue. No matter how fitting he is to wear the cowl, he's just not Bruce and he loses so much of what makes him iconic in trying to be Batman. He's got ties to different characters and while it would be awesome to see that evolve together, its really, really hard to pull off alone, let alone with multiple writers with competing favorites.
So.... after all that rambling.... yeah, I'd like to see heroes change and grow more, but I also get why we cling to our favorites. I'm not sure there's a solid answer.
The movies definitely suffer from the constant escalation of threat. Each one building to bigger and bigger consequences for failure, and never going back down to local stuff afterwards.
Jadenim wrote: I’m intrigued that they’ve still got the asterisk on the title, even this close to release? What the hell are they going to change it to?!
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Unless it’s an in-joke, because they don’t want to call themselves Thunderbolts?)
All I hope for the movie is that they find a way to give us a REAL taskmaster and Ghost since both are just the movie teams finding a cool character a cool name and powers and just make an entirely different character, and if there's a sequel please add Black ant (marvel will make him a man, they don't want to bring up women rapists) and make him Taskmaster's best bud, and that they make this movie worth it's title and hook
BagMan wrote: All I hope for the movie is that they find a way to give us a REAL taskmaster and Ghost since both are just the movie teams finding a cool character a cool name and powers and just make an entirely different character
Considering we already know the actresses are playing the same characters and are using the the same costumes as the previous films that they were introduced in I'm not sure where your hope is coming from.
Taskmaster at least has potential to be a character now that she's not a lobotomized robot. Ghost also has potential to be.... something. Obviously not the same as their comic counterparts, but they have a lot of room to be more than they were.
With Red Guardian, Winter Soldier and Yelena being the big stars for the picture though, I suspect they'll not get a lot of time for development. At least this film is probably one of the last of the D+ messes to work itself out. Perhaps one more with Young Avengers?
BagMan wrote: All I hope for the movie is that they find a way to give us a REAL taskmaster and Ghost since both are just the movie teams finding a cool character a cool name and powers and just make an entirely different character
Considering we already know the actresses are playing the same characters and are using the the same costumes as the previous films that they were introduced in I'm not sure where your hope is coming from.
The sheer amount of copium I inhaled while watching every scream movie. Anything that can happen apparently will happen. Lets hope black any comes into the movies soon so we can have the Taskmaster and black ant duo on screen.
Still don't know how their team is supposed to handle someone like Sentry when the upper tier of their group is pretty much basic super-soldier strength and a bit of phasing shenanigans with Ghost. I know there's gonna be some macguffin to them beating the Void, but I'm pretty sure at this point it'll be some psychological "You're better than this" from Yelena or someone else when they get eaten by the Void to somehow neutralize his powers, which would be another really lame way of beating him given they basically did that extremely poorly with Red Hulk and Sam in Brave New World.
So the movie summary of the Thunderbolts got leaked and uhhhhh yeah, it's about what I expected. If anyone is like me and just wants a synopsis, I've put the link of the movie spoilers down below:
I think one of the funniest things (in a bad way) is how much they've made the Black Widow movie even more irrelevant from how so Ava kills Antonia, Yelena's only real connection with anyone, and Yelena is just "whatever" about it? It makes Nats arc in BW of realising her past has come back to hunt her and her getting a second chance to not kill Antonia but save her instead completely pointless now. Guess they gave up on making Taskmaster work which I guess is fine given how barebones they were already as a villain and away from the mainstream comics version.
I guess their squad is the New Avengers now, but I assume not for long since they're probably going to be merked by Doctor Doom when he gets introduced. That or Sam successfully sues them somehow?
Grimskul wrote: Still don't know how their team is supposed to handle someone like Sentry when the upper tier of their group is pretty much basic super-soldier strength and a bit of phasing shenanigans with Ghost. I know there's gonna be some macguffin to them beating the Void, but I'm pretty sure at this point it'll be some psychological "You're better than this" from Yelena or someone else when they get eaten by the Void to somehow neutralize his powers, which would be another really lame way of beating him given they basically did that extremely poorly with Red Hulk and Sam in Brave New World.
I mean, yeah..... that was pretty obviously going to be the resolution even by just seeing the trailer.
When the comic book protagonist is outmatched by the villain, the resolution is pretty much always going to be either 'find a macguffin' or 'talk them down'... Not really sure what else anyone would have been expecting, to be honest.
insaniak wrote: When the comic book protagonist is outmatched by the villain, the resolution is pretty much always going to be either 'find a macguffin' or 'talk them down'... Not really sure what else anyone would have been expecting, to be honest.
You forgot the 80s classic - a training montage! Guaranteed to level-up the hero to beat the villain!
Ask the hotel for a theater recommendation. Theater culture varies wildly, even in the same city. Near my house there’s a theater that is popular with rowdy kids going full Chicken Jockey, while the place down the street always has respectful, quiet audiences.
Ask the hotel for a theater recommendation. Theater culture varies wildly, even in the same city. Near my house there’s a theater that is popular with rowdy kids going full Chicken Jockey, while the place down the street always has respectful, quiet audiences.
And US Movie Theater butter is unlike any substance you can find anywhere in the world... mainly to laws that frown upon crimes against humanity.
Our theater for the olds changed their popcorn sauce from the neon goo to real butter, and my mom complains about it every time she goes to the movies.
I remember working at a movie theater as a teen. We were told to ask if they wanted "Buttery Topping" because we could get sued because it is not butter.
I very much enjoyed it. It’s not quite perfect (I feel we should be more familiar with Valentina, beyond a few post-credits-creeping). But the plot is good, and it explored a complex and sensitive theme in a competent, sympathetic but most importantly entertaining and engaging way.
Our cast has excellent chemistry which oozes off the screen at all times. And for me, the fight scenes are well choreographed, and well shot.
I appreciated that when the group did try to fight Sentry it went as well as you imagine it would. I thought the way they "talked down" Bob from being Void was fine and handled well. They had set the foundations for such a thing so it didn't feel out of left field. The ending with Valentina felt way to rushed and I'm not sure I buy Bucky just letting her get off without repercussions.
Of course we also now confirmation that the Fantastic Four are from another dimension. I kind of hope they are coming to our universe because they can't stop Galactus and the big boy finally got his nom noms.
Of course we also now confirmation that the Fantastic Four are from another dimension.
We've had that for a year+.
Disney told us that along time ago.
Guess I haven't been keeping up on every bit of errata D+ releases. Just within the last few weeks I saw people discussing online about this and they didn't seem to know it was already confirmed so it seems like it hasn't been disseminated all that widely. Of course I've also had to explain who the FF are recently, so it may be that what fans know and what general audiences know are different.
Yeah, this was one of the better and more fun ones I've seen from marvel in a while. The last two have been above average for the entire run let alone this phase.
bbb wrote: I'm irritated that they did Thunderbolts without Zemo only to swerve at the end.
Spoiler:
I thought they might reveal de Fontaine as being Madame HYDRA, especially when Void is peaking into her past, as the MCU version of the reveal that it was actually Zemo in the original story. They wouldn't actually call her Madame HYDRA but there would have been something connecting her to the organization.
I thought they might reveal de Fontaine as being Madame HYDRA, especially when Void is peaking into her past, as the MCU version of the reveal that it was actually Zemo in the original story. They wouldn't actually call her Madame HYDRA but there would have been something connecting her to the organization.
Well don't they basically reveal that...
Spoiler:
Valentina Allegra de Fontaine is in fact another Red Room operative?
A Russian asset? In US intelligence! Marvel movies are just crazy!
On an unrelated note here is a photo of Tulsi Gabbard.
I also, enjoyed this one. The New Avengers: We don't Like Each Other, But We Hate Our Boss Even More. The bickering kept the scenes rolling along, although it's hard reconciling current day Red Guardian with the competent undercover agent at the start of []iBlack Widow[/i], but I guess 20+ years in a Siberian prison with nothing to do but drink prion made vodka and brood on how your country let you down can do that to you.
Spoiler:
So, Taskmaster. She's on the posters, she's a sympathetic character, and she has a cool schtick. Whatever you may think of the backstory difference with the comic book character, she got a rough deal here. Why put her in the movie at all? I mean, they incinerated the room just to make sure. Was it just to prove that these are a bunch of killers? We'd already established that with the opening setup. To prove that 'Ghost' is a badass, because after they break out she's a 5th wheel, despite being the only one with an actual 'super' power? Maybe Olga didn't what to be in the marvel movies anymore.
They must have something special planned for Bob/Sentry/Void. The 'things are so bad we need bob to suit up despite the risk' denouement will get tiresome fast. Are he and Galactus going to kill each other is a movie or two's time?
I thought the flashback was supposed to show that Valentina Allegra de Fontaine was Russian and connected to the Red Room. Turns out they were speaking Italian and it was just there to show why she's so cynical. And apparently I cannot tell the difference between Russian and Italian
So no Russian intelligence assets in the MCU government. That would just be too crazy.
On an unrelated note, here is a picture of Tulsi Gabbard.
I also, enjoyed this one. The New Avengers: We don't Like Each Other, But We Hate Our Boss Even More. The bickering kept the scenes rolling along, although it's hard reconciling current day Red Guardian with the competent undercover agent at the start of []iBlack Widow[/i], but I guess 20+ years in a Siberian prison with nothing to do but drink prion made vodka and brood on how your country let you down can do that to you.
Spoiler:
So, Taskmaster. She's on the posters, she's a sympathetic character, and she has a cool schtick. Whatever you may think of the backstory difference with the comic book character, she got a rough deal here. Why put her in the movie at all? I mean, they incinerated the room just to make sure. Was it just to prove that these are a bunch of killers? We'd already established that with the opening setup. To prove that 'Ghost' is a badass, because after they break out she's a 5th wheel, despite being the only one with an actual 'super' power? Maybe Olga didn't what to be in the marvel movies anymore.
They must have something special planned for Bob/Sentry/Void. The 'things are so bad we need bob to suit up despite the risk' denouement will get tiresome fast. Are he and Galactus going to kill each other is a movie or two's time?
Spoiler:
Knowing what happens to her makes the posters hilarious because it’s always just the same picture of her in her mask in the background. I wonder if they’re killing her off so they can do a “proper” Taskmaster.
Captain America - Sam Wilson
Falcon - I can't remember his name
Black Panther 2 - I can't remember her name, Shuri? Was that it?
War Machine
Ant Man - because why not
Captain America - Sam Wilson Falcon - I can't remember his name Black Panther 2 - I can't remember her name, Shuri? Was that it? War Machine Ant Man - because why not
Anyone else still around?
She Hulk Moon Knight (probably not, but maybe). White Vision
Plus we have Young Avengers/Champions Hawkeye (Kate) Ms Marvel Wiccan (Billy) Speed (Tommy) Stature (Cassie Lang) Patriot (Bradley's grandson) Iron Lad (Young Kang? Yet to be cast? Won't be cast?) Viv Vision (I think she will appear in vision quest)
AduroT wrote: I don’t think we’ll get a Sam’s Avengers. The President who was authorizing that didn’t stick around. And now they’ve got this team.
We HAVE Sam's Avengers.
We just don't know any details about them yet other than :
A) Sam
B) Sam's trademarked the name/logo
C) a year+ after these "New Avengers" have been on the job? The public doesn't hold them in much regard vs Sam's team.
We learn this at the end of this movie & in the credits scenes.
And you can be sure we'll learn more about Sam's team.
I'm getting ready to take my son to see it tomorrow, so to get ready we binge-watched Falcon and The Winter Soldier so we could fully understand what's up.
My thoughts on F&WS are kinda mixed. Was Walker/CA2/US Agent really supposed to be a bad guy? Unlike the main characters he was actually under orders from multiple governments, had legal jurisdiction, DIDN'T break a super-terrorist out of jail, tried to talk-down The Dora Milaje before everyone went fight-mode, and on MULTIPLE occasions was the one to extend an olive branch before having it slapped out of his hand. He's also the only one punished at the end, despite Sam and Bucky literally committing several international crimes. While I don't condone the killing he did, it was a multiple murderer hyped up on Super Soldier serum who made it clear he wouldn't willingly surrender. Also, Steve Rogers killed A LOT of non-super people as CA and no one seemed to give a gak.
The point was that being a government stooge following orders to the letter isn't what Captain America is.
The whole appointment was to try and buy the US government credibility by giving the public Captain America back.
By picking a soldier they failed the first hurdle for what made Cap who he was. Walker is a villain but not of his own making.
Also there's a significant difference between Cap killing actual full on Nazis and Walker violently smashing a dudes face apart in broad daylight after he was incapacitated.
Gert wrote: The point was that being a government stooge following orders to the letter isn't what Captain America is.
The whole appointment was to try and buy the US government credibility by giving the public Captain America back.
By picking a soldier they failed the first hurdle for what made Cap who he was. Walker is a villain but not of his own making.
Also there's a significant difference between Cap killing actual full on Nazis and Walker violently smashing a dudes face apart in broad daylight after he was incapacitated.
And what about Hydra guys later on? Plus, I'm going to somewhat understand (although not condone) killing that guy when Walker just watched his best friend get killed in front of him. That's PTSD inducing right there. If only there was someone on that show that was experienced in dealing with soldier with combat stress related disorders..... Oh, Sam, that's right. As for Walker not being "the right guy". Well, as they weren't giving him superhuman serum, it was either a soldier or nothing. Now, I'm not saying Walker was "the good guy" in any of it, but objectively the main characters were arguably worse.
You can tell F&WS went through a terrible production that had to constantly rewrite and change what the plot was going to be by how inconsistent it is in most regards. IIRC originally the villians were supposed to release a contagion but once an actual pandemic hit irl they rushed to try and salvage it but you can still tell it isn't what it was planned to be.
The biggest problem with Walker beheading the guy with the Cap's shield is that he did it incredibly publicly. We the audience have seen what happened leading up to it but in world all people saw was Captain America brutally murder someone in the town square. There was no way he was going to be allowed to pretend that didn't happen or that it was going to cause an international incident. I think for the most part they have done a good job with Walker because while he can be an arrogant jerk you also get glimpses of why they choose him as well; he can be the good guy but he also gets in his own way. It is the difference between someone who shows up and leads (Steve) and someone who shows up and tells everyone they are in charge (John).
I agree Sam makes some really bad choices in the series, some baffling tbh.
If you think Walker got a bit of a character assassination you'll love that in the original story for the Thunderbolts movie he was supposed to be the villain.
Gert wrote: The point was that being a government stooge following orders to the letter isn't what Captain America is.
The whole appointment was to try and buy the US government credibility by giving the public Captain America back.
By picking a soldier they failed the first hurdle for what made Cap who he was. Walker is a villain but not of his own making.
Also there's a significant difference between Cap killing actual full on Nazis and Walker violently smashing a dudes face apart in broad daylight after he was incapacitated.
And what about Hydra guys later on? Plus, I'm going to somewhat understand (although not condone) killing that guy when Walker just watched his best friend get killed in front of him.
A thing Steve would not do. There is even a really famous fight between Steve and Kang when Kang goes on a sort of suicide via cop rampage.
Spoiler:
Maybe it's unfair to hold John to Steve level standards. Maybe it's unfair to hold ANYONE to those standards. But Cap doesn't just kill indiscriminately and he doesn't do it to a surrendering opponent. Even when that opponent is a monster.
That's PTSD inducing right there. If only there was someone on that show that was experienced in dealing with soldier with combat stress related disorders..... Oh, Sam, that's right. As for Walker not being "the right guy". Well, as they weren't giving him superhuman serum, it was either a soldier or nothing. Now, I'm not saying Walker was "the good guy" in any of it, but objectively the main characters were arguably worse.
Sam and Bucky were nowhere near as bad as Walker. Walker was brash, impatient, and escalated every situation he walked into into unnecessary violence. He was a liability in every scene he showed up in.
cuda1179 wrote: Well, as they weren't giving him superhuman serum, it was either a soldier or nothing.
That's the point. Captain America needed to be chosen by someone who truly believed in what the shield stood for, not government bureaucrats looking for points in the polls.
Sam made the mistake in not taking on the mantle because he believed he wasn't worthy. That is the point of Sam's character arc in FWS.
It seems Thunderbolts has started a conversation about John Walker as I've seen something similar to what is being discussed here pop up in other places.
Not really a spoiler but kind of from the movie
Spoiler:
Ghost says to Walker "Didn't you kill an innocent man?"
An important point that we as the Viewer see more than the characters.
As far as the rest of the world is concerned, Walker brutally murdered a refugee in full view of the public.
Of course its pure dumb luck that somehow that turned into a point about the US government abandoning Veterans.
FWS was so close to having some actual legit messages and points but it has the biggest stamp of "executive meddling" that blandifies it and waters it down to "Pls do better guys :(".
Maybe it's unfair to hold John to Steve level standards. Maybe it's unfair to hold ANYONE to those standards. But Cap doesn't just kill indiscriminately and he doesn't do it to a surrendering opponent. Even when that opponent is a monster.
Sam and Bucky were nowhere near as bad as Walker. Walker was brash, impatient, and escalated every situation he walked into into unnecessary violence. He was a liability in every scene he showed up in.
Except for The Dora Milaje scene I mentioned earlier, where Walker was the ONLY one trying to play nice. I will agree that the "Steve Standard" is a pretty high standard to meet. It's a standard that even other members of the Avengers aren't held to. Bucky was a ruthless assassin, but being mind controlled, so we give him a pass. Black Widow was ALSO an international assassin, but she was pressured into doing it, so we give her a pass. Tony Stark left an unarmed, helpless man to be lynched to death by an angry mob, but it's okay and we cheered for that. Scarlett Witch and Silverbolt were BOTH working for an evil, murderous robot that killed A LOT of innocent people.
Maybe it's unfair to hold John to Steve level standards. Maybe it's unfair to hold ANYONE to those standards. But Cap doesn't just kill indiscriminately and he doesn't do it to a surrendering opponent. Even when that opponent is a monster.
Sam and Bucky were nowhere near as bad as Walker. Walker was brash, impatient, and escalated every situation he walked into into unnecessary violence. He was a liability in every scene he showed up in.
Except for The Dora Milaje scene I mentioned earlier, where Walker was the ONLY one trying to play nice. I will agree that the "Steve Standard" is a pretty high standard to meet. It's a standard that even other members of the Avengers aren't held to. Bucky was a ruthless assassin, but being mind controlled, so we give him a pass. Black Widow was ALSO an international assassin, but she was pressured into doing it, so we give her a pass. Tony Stark left an unarmed, helpless man to be lynched to death by an angry mob, but it's okay and we cheered for that. Scarlett Witch and Silverbolt were BOTH working for an evil, murderous robot that killed A LOT of innocent people.
Walker wasn't the only one trying to play nice with the Dora. Walker was inserting himself into a situation he didn't understand with people he didn't know and expected them to respect him for the title "Captain America". Bucky and Sam were having the conversation with the Dora knowing who they were, what they were capable of, and how things were likely to play out. John just struts up, "Hey there. I am Captain America. Good to meet you! Ladies, ladies ladies... why don't we all just calm down?"
He thought they were less then they were and he was disrespectful because that's who John is. He has too much pride and thinks others are less than himself until he got beat up and put in his place. And that wound to his pride drives his actions for the rest of the show.
As Cap would put it, it's about how you act knowing what you know. The twins didn't know what Ultron was planning. When they did they turned on him. In the end they did whats right. Natasha was a red room assassin. And she defected and worked to be something better. Every day with the Avengers was a step towards redemption. Steve is all about that gak. Hawkeye is the same. Bruce is the same.
Tony tries to do whats right. His heart is in the right place. But he never thinks of the consequences. And that why Steve disagrees with him and ultimately fights him. Not tries to kill him. He didn't attempt to kill Tony for trying to kill Bucky. An innocent man not at all responsible for Tony's parents deaths. He Tried to talk him down, then slow him down, then disable his ability to cause harm.
Let's circle back to Walker. A man with a bunch of wounded pride who just took a super soldier serum to try to patch the hole thinking it would get him the respect he thinks he deserves. Struts into a negotiation situation making demands and causing a fight when there didn't need to be one. See's his partner get killed because he entered that situation half cocked and caused the violence. Then goes on a rampage and runs down someone who did NOT kill his friend. John stands over him while he is surrendering and executes him with the symbol of Captain America.
In this situation, John was the aggressor. From beginning of the fight to the end of the fight. Lamar's death is HIS fault.
Tell me, when was Hulk the instigator? When Tony left that guy to the mob, did Tony walk into a peaceful situation and start a fight, then put an innocent man in the hands of aggressors?
Thor went off half cocked to Jotenheim and nearly started a war. He was stripped of his power and exiled for it. He had to do work and make sacrifices to repair the damage done.
What has John done to repair the damage done? Or he is still full of undeserved pride? Look how he looked down on every other person in the room at the beginning of Thunderbolts. He is still the ass hole that got his friend killed.
Maybe it's unfair to hold John to Steve level standards. Maybe it's unfair to hold ANYONE to those standards. But Cap doesn't just kill indiscriminately and he doesn't do it to a surrendering opponent. Even when that opponent is a monster.
Sam and Bucky were nowhere near as bad as Walker. Walker was brash, impatient, and escalated every situation he walked into into unnecessary violence. He was a liability in every scene he showed up in.
Except for The Dora Milaje scene I mentioned earlier, where Walker was the ONLY one trying to play nice. I will agree that the "Steve Standard" is a pretty high standard to meet. It's a standard that even other members of the Avengers aren't held to. Bucky was a ruthless assassin, but being mind controlled, so we give him a pass. Black Widow was ALSO an international assassin, but she was pressured into doing it, so we give her a pass. Tony Stark left an unarmed, helpless man to be lynched to death by an angry mob, but it's okay and we cheered for that. Scarlett Witch and Silverbolt were BOTH working for an evil, murderous robot that killed A LOT of innocent people.
Walker wasn't the only one trying to play nice with the Dora. Walker was inserting himself into a situation he didn't understand with people he didn't know and expected them to respect him for the title "Captain America". Bucky and Sam were having the conversation with the Dora knowing who they were, what they were capable of, and how things were likely to play out. John just struts up, "Hey there. I am Captain America. Good to meet you! Ladies, ladies ladies... why don't we all just calm down?"
He thought they were less then they were and he was disrespectful because that's who John is. He has too much pride and thinks others are less than himself until he got beat up and put in his place. And that wound to his pride drives his actions for the rest of the show.
As Cap would put it, it's about how you act knowing what you know. The twins didn't know what Ultron was planning. When they did they turned on him. In the end they did whats right. Natasha was a red room assassin. And she defected and worked to be something better. Every day with the Avengers was a step towards redemption. Steve is all about that gak. Hawkeye is the same. Bruce is the same.
Tony tries to do whats right. His heart is in the right place. But he never thinks of the consequences. And that why Steve disagrees with him and ultimately fights him. Not tries to kill him. He didn't attempt to kill Tony for trying to kill Bucky. An innocent man not at all responsible for Tony's parents deaths. He Tried to talk him down, then slow him down, then disable his ability to cause harm.
Let's circle back to Walker. A man with a bunch of wounded pride who just took a super soldier serum to try to patch the hole thinking it would get him the respect he thinks he deserves. Struts into a negotiation situation making demands and causing a fight when there didn't need to be one. See's his partner get killed because he entered that situation half cocked and caused the violence. Then goes on a rampage and runs down someone who did NOT kill his friend. John stands over him while he is surrendering and executes him with the symbol of Captain America.
In this situation, John was the aggressor. From beginning of the fight to the end of the fight. Lamar's death is HIS fault.
Tell me, when was Hulk the instigator? When Tony left that guy to the mob, did Tony walk into a peaceful situation and start a fight, then put an innocent man in the hands of aggressors?
Thor went off half cocked to Jotenheim and nearly started a war. He was stripped of his power and exiled for it. He had to do work and make sacrifices to repair the damage done.
What has John done to repair the damage done? Or he is still full of undeserved pride? Look how he looked down on every other person in the room at the beginning of Thunderbolts. He is still the ass hole that got his friend killed.
Well, at the end of F&WS he had the option to either take out the bad guys, or save innocent people, and he chose to save people. I feel like he wants to be a hero, but doesn't quite get it. As for the super hero serum, he didn't exactly immediately take it either. He debated about it, and his friend did throw a number of arguments his way in support of taking it.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: He’s not beyond redemption. That’s kind of the point of his character.
We see some of it in The New Avengers, but there’s a road to go yet.
Oh, yeah, definitely a ways to go. A lot of what he does seems to be "bad things, but for the right reasons". Of course he falls a little flat when compared to true anti-heroes like the Punisher, with whom we nod with approval when he beats a "banned topic" video peddler to death with a baseball bat. Of course the argument to be had there is that the Punisher is specifically NOT trying to be a hero, he's just doing things he thinks need to be done, and actually hates his own fan-boys. Walker, much like Red Guardian, wants to be admired. I mean, I can't really say I blame him there, most of us do.
Overall he gives me the vibe of a minor-league ball player that was pulled up to the Major Leagues before he was ready. It's not that he's bad, just not ready, and the public will call him out for it anyway. I have a feeling Spiderman would have been the same way (minus the killing) had Tony Stark not kept a VERY close eye on him and on a tight leash at the beginning.
He’s also walking in the shadow of Steve Rogers. More than any hero, Captain America didn’t actually exist. It wasn’t a person Steve created. It was just Steve.
His sense of right and wrong and of justice? His desire to defeat but not necessarily kill bullies? All Steve.
The American People of the MCU think they want a new Captain America. But they really want a new Steve Rogers.
Of course, there’s the political commentary subtext about US Agent and Cap reflecting two different American Ideals, but this is Dakka, so I’ll just mention it and move on.
I agree that Walker isn't an outright villain. I agree he WANTS to be a hero, though he doesn't really understand what that means yet. And I agree he has a way to go to get there. He does WANT to save people. But he is still arrogant and brash and his pride still gets in his way.
Nothing says how far Walker still has to go like the way he treated the rest of the would be Thunderbolts when they first met. His every word was about how much better than them he was the entire time.
He isn't a villain. And he can/wants to do good. But he is nowhere near the moral compass or example Steve is/was. Sam is doing a much better job living up to that.
He isn't a villain. And he can/wants to do good. But he is nowhere near the moral compass or example Steve is/was. Sam is doing a much better job living up to that.
I think Sam is trying to be the moral compass, but falling nearly as flat on it as Walker is at being a hero. Sam's infamous "do better" speach to the politicians was just cringe. Yeah Sam? Do better? Have any suggestions there buddy? Easy to say, hard to do. Even the Lady politician pointed out it's a hard job and they are doing what they can with what they have.
Sam is Captain Falcon America. It’s not his job to improve politics and the country. That’s the literal job of Politicians. His job is to defend the country as best he can.
By simply saying “Do Better”, he speaks for who knows how many regular Americans that are struggling, regardless of the political affiliation. It’s not enough for Politicians to just chest beat or wring their hands over how bad things are. They’ve the power and the responsibility to literally Do Better, for as many Americans as possible.
We watched it last week and also really enjoyed it. Some points that made it a good movie in my opinion:
- for a superhero movie surprisingly tame on the special effects side.
Spoiler:
New York gets dark... some building bits fall down... a couple of explosions which are on the smaller side given the average of superhero movies. The big baddie mostly just a normal dude in either gold or blackj
which I found rather refreshing
- taking time for some random bull**** talking, especially from red guardian. At times it was endearingly absurd and got some Guardians of the Galaxy 1 vibes in there
- overall interesting concept for an antagonist.
One thing I missed a bit was:
Spoiler:
Red Guardian really showing his strength. Bucky had his "I'm a cool, highly trained assassin" scene, Walker went toe to toe with Yelena and Taskmaster and showed of his strength, but Red Guardian "just" lifted some boulders. For a Supersoldier that was intended to fight Steve Rogers Cap I would expect a bit more... heavy hitting
And: Taskmaster was wasted a bit fast. I liked that character, even if I only knew her from Black widow
That "Do better" speech is what I was getting at in my own post.
Everyone knows that what the writers wanted Sam to actually say but it got watered down because "be compassionate to refugees" when certain people were in certain positions of power would have got Disney on the wrong side of those certain people.
That's why it was cringey, because everyone knew what it was supposed to be but it wasn't.
More low-key than some but I felt that fitted their punch-and-shoot skill set.
Didn’t feel overly long.
Loved David Harbour as RG. He got to be embarrassing dad and flawed father trying to figure things out. I liked that when the civvies were in danger he was the first to go to their aid - to me it showed that despite being the comic relief he’s instinct is to protect people.
Only criticism would be the slightly dodgy leaping and twisting in the last fight. Looked very artificial.
In Thunderbolts it was said all the other test subjects died other than Bob but someone opined that Bob did in fact die after being given the serum, and much like when they used the "kill switch" on him, he got better. Much like in the comics Sentry can't actually be killed.
