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She hulk and daredevil

The_Real_Chris wrote:
She hulk and daredevil

Has anyone made the move from TV to film?

The A.G.E.N.T.S. of S.H.I.E.L.D. made it 7 years and haven't even been mentioned.

Ms Marvel has, as has Not New Cap. I sure there’s others but that’s just off the top of my head.

Ant Man - because why not

That describes Paul Rudd's Ant Man in general.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So who do we think is on...

Spoiler:

Sam Wilson's Newer Avengers?

I've got:

Captain America - Sam Wilson
Falcon - I can't remember his name
Black Panther 2 - I can't remember her name, Shuri? Was that it?
War Machine
Ant Man - because why not

Anyone else still around?

She Hulk
Moon Knight (probably not, but maybe).
White Vision

Plus we have Young Avengers/Champions
Hawkeye (Kate)
Ms Marvel
Wiccan (Billy)
Speed (Tommy)
Stature (Cassie Lang)
Patriot (Bradley's grandson)
Iron Lad (Young Kang? Yet to be cast? Won't be cast?)
Viv Vision (I think she will appear in vision quest)

I don’t think we’ll get a Sam’s Avengers. The President who was authorizing that didn’t stick around. And now they’ve got this team.

 AduroT wrote:
I don’t think we’ll get a Sam’s Avengers. The President who was authorizing that didn’t stick around. And now they’ve got this team.

We HAVE Sam's Avengers.
We just don't know any details about them yet other than :
A) Sam
B) Sam's trademarked the name/logo
C) a year+ after these "New Avengers" have been on the job? The public doesn't hold them in much regard vs Sam's team.
We learn this at the end of this movie & in the credits scenes.
And you can be sure we'll learn more about Sam's team.

Missed opportunity to call them Sam's Club instead of a variant name of The Avengers.

I'm getting ready to take my son to see it tomorrow, so to get ready we binge-watched Falcon and The Winter Soldier so we could fully understand what's up.


My thoughts on F&WS are kinda mixed. Was Walker/CA2/US Agent really supposed to be a bad guy? Unlike the main characters he was actually under orders from multiple governments, had legal jurisdiction, DIDN'T break a super-terrorist out of jail, tried to talk-down The Dora Milaje before everyone went fight-mode, and on MULTIPLE occasions was the one to extend an olive branch before having it slapped out of his hand. He's also the only one punished at the end, despite Sam and Bucky literally committing several international crimes. While I don't condone the killing he did, it was a multiple murderer hyped up on Super Soldier serum who made it clear he wouldn't willingly surrender. Also, Steve Rogers killed A LOT of non-super people as CA and no one seemed to give a gak.

The point was that being a government stooge following orders to the letter isn't what Captain America is.
The whole appointment was to try and buy the US government credibility by giving the public Captain America back.
By picking a soldier they failed the first hurdle for what made Cap who he was. Walker is a villain but not of his own making.
Also there's a significant difference between Cap killing actual full on Nazis and Walker violently smashing a dudes face apart in broad daylight after he was incapacitated.

 Gert wrote:
The point was that being a government stooge following orders to the letter isn't what Captain America is.
The whole appointment was to try and buy the US government credibility by giving the public Captain America back.
By picking a soldier they failed the first hurdle for what made Cap who he was. Walker is a villain but not of his own making.
Also there's a significant difference between Cap killing actual full on Nazis and Walker violently smashing a dudes face apart in broad daylight after he was incapacitated.

And what about Hydra guys later on? Plus, I'm going to somewhat understand (although not condone) killing that guy when Walker just watched his best friend get killed in front of him. That's PTSD inducing right there. If only there was someone on that show that was experienced in dealing with soldier with combat stress related disorders..... Oh, Sam, that's right. As for Walker not being "the right guy". Well, as they weren't giving him superhuman serum, it was either a soldier or nothing. Now, I'm not saying Walker was "the good guy" in any of it, but objectively the main characters were arguably worse.

You can tell F&WS went through a terrible production that had to constantly rewrite and change what the plot was going to be by how inconsistent it is in most regards. IIRC originally the villians were supposed to release a contagion but once an actual pandemic hit irl they rushed to try and salvage it but you can still tell it isn't what it was planned to be.

The biggest problem with Walker beheading the guy with the Cap's shield is that he did it incredibly publicly. We the audience have seen what happened leading up to it but in world all people saw was Captain America brutally murder someone in the town square. There was no way he was going to be allowed to pretend that didn't happen or that it was going to cause an international incident. I think for the most part they have done a good job with Walker because while he can be an arrogant jerk you also get glimpses of why they choose him as well; he can be the good guy but he also gets in his own way. It is the difference between someone who shows up and leads (Steve) and someone who shows up and tells everyone they are in charge (John).

I agree Sam makes some really bad choices in the series, some baffling tbh.

If you think Walker got a bit of a character assassination you'll love that in the original story for the Thunderbolts movie he was supposed to be the villain.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
The point was that being a government stooge following orders to the letter isn't what Captain America is.
The whole appointment was to try and buy the US government credibility by giving the public Captain America back.
By picking a soldier they failed the first hurdle for what made Cap who he was. Walker is a villain but not of his own making.
Also there's a significant difference between Cap killing actual full on Nazis and Walker violently smashing a dudes face apart in broad daylight after he was incapacitated.

And what about Hydra guys later on? Plus, I'm going to somewhat understand (although not condone) killing that guy when Walker just watched his best friend get killed in front of him.

A thing Steve would not do. There is even a really famous fight between Steve and Kang when Kang goes on a sort of suicide via cop rampage.



Maybe it's unfair to hold John to Steve level standards. Maybe it's unfair to hold ANYONE to those standards. But Cap doesn't just kill indiscriminately and he doesn't do it to a surrendering opponent. Even when that opponent is a monster.

That's PTSD inducing right there. If only there was someone on that show that was experienced in dealing with soldier with combat stress related disorders..... Oh, Sam, that's right. As for Walker not being "the right guy". Well, as they weren't giving him superhuman serum, it was either a soldier or nothing. Now, I'm not saying Walker was "the good guy" in any of it, but objectively the main characters were arguably worse.

Sam and Bucky were nowhere near as bad as Walker. Walker was brash, impatient, and escalated every situation he walked into into unnecessary violence. He was a liability in every scene he showed up in.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Well, as they weren't giving him superhuman serum, it was either a soldier or nothing.

That's the point. Captain America needed to be chosen by someone who truly believed in what the shield stood for, not government bureaucrats looking for points in the polls.

Sam made the mistake in not taking on the mantle because he believed he wasn't worthy. That is the point of Sam's character arc in FWS.

Also keep in mind the Serum only magnifies what’s already there.

If you gave it to an abject moral coward? You wouldn’t get Sir Arsekick. You’d get an even more snivelling wretch.

Walker is what might’ve happened had the meathead from The First Avenger been selected.

It seems Thunderbolts has started a conversation about John Walker as I've seen something similar to what is being discussed here pop up in other places.

Not really a spoiler but kind of from the movie

An important point that we as the Viewer see more than the characters.

As far as the rest of the world is concerned, Walker brutally murdered a refugee in full view of the public.

Of course its pure dumb luck that somehow that turned into a point about the US government abandoning Veterans.

FWS was so close to having some actual legit messages and points but it has the biggest stamp of "executive meddling" that blandifies it and waters it down to "Pls do better guys :(".

 Lance845 wrote:


Maybe it's unfair to hold John to Steve level standards. Maybe it's unfair to hold ANYONE to those standards. But Cap doesn't just kill indiscriminately and he doesn't do it to a surrendering opponent. Even when that opponent is a monster.



Sam and Bucky were nowhere near as bad as Walker. Walker was brash, impatient, and escalated every situation he walked into into unnecessary violence. He was a liability in every scene he showed up in.

Except for The Dora Milaje scene I mentioned earlier, where Walker was the ONLY one trying to play nice. I will agree that the "Steve Standard" is a pretty high standard to meet. It's a standard that even other members of the Avengers aren't held to. Bucky was a ruthless assassin, but being mind controlled, so we give him a pass. Black Widow was ALSO an international assassin, but she was pressured into doing it, so we give her a pass. Tony Stark left an unarmed, helpless man to be lynched to death by an angry mob, but it's okay and we cheered for that. Scarlett Witch and Silverbolt were BOTH working for an evil, murderous robot that killed A LOT of innocent people.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Tony Stark left an unarmed, helpless man to be lynched to death by an angry mob, but it's okay and we cheered for that.

Yeah, an unarmed and helpless thug who was about to kill a tonne of people. That's hardly a stain on Tony's character.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


Maybe it's unfair to hold John to Steve level standards. Maybe it's unfair to hold ANYONE to those standards. But Cap doesn't just kill indiscriminately and he doesn't do it to a surrendering opponent. Even when that opponent is a monster.



Sam and Bucky were nowhere near as bad as Walker. Walker was brash, impatient, and escalated every situation he walked into into unnecessary violence. He was a liability in every scene he showed up in.

Except for The Dora Milaje scene I mentioned earlier, where Walker was the ONLY one trying to play nice. I will agree that the "Steve Standard" is a pretty high standard to meet. It's a standard that even other members of the Avengers aren't held to. Bucky was a ruthless assassin, but being mind controlled, so we give him a pass. Black Widow was ALSO an international assassin, but she was pressured into doing it, so we give her a pass. Tony Stark left an unarmed, helpless man to be lynched to death by an angry mob, but it's okay and we cheered for that. Scarlett Witch and Silverbolt were BOTH working for an evil, murderous robot that killed A LOT of innocent people.

Walker wasn't the only one trying to play nice with the Dora. Walker was inserting himself into a situation he didn't understand with people he didn't know and expected them to respect him for the title "Captain America". Bucky and Sam were having the conversation with the Dora knowing who they were, what they were capable of, and how things were likely to play out. John just struts up, "Hey there. I am Captain America. Good to meet you! Ladies, ladies ladies... why don't we all just calm down?"

He thought they were less then they were and he was disrespectful because that's who John is. He has too much pride and thinks others are less than himself until he got beat up and put in his place. And that wound to his pride drives his actions for the rest of the show.


As Cap would put it, it's about how you act knowing what you know. The twins didn't know what Ultron was planning. When they did they turned on him. In the end they did whats right. Natasha was a red room assassin. And she defected and worked to be something better. Every day with the Avengers was a step towards redemption. Steve is all about that gak. Hawkeye is the same. Bruce is the same.

Tony tries to do whats right. His heart is in the right place. But he never thinks of the consequences. And that why Steve disagrees with him and ultimately fights him. Not tries to kill him. He didn't attempt to kill Tony for trying to kill Bucky. An innocent man not at all responsible for Tony's parents deaths. He Tried to talk him down, then slow him down, then disable his ability to cause harm.

Let's circle back to Walker. A man with a bunch of wounded pride who just took a super soldier serum to try to patch the hole thinking it would get him the respect he thinks he deserves. Struts into a negotiation situation making demands and causing a fight when there didn't need to be one. See's his partner get killed because he entered that situation half cocked and caused the violence. Then goes on a rampage and runs down someone who did NOT kill his friend. John stands over him while he is surrendering and executes him with the symbol of Captain America.

In this situation, John was the aggressor. From beginning of the fight to the end of the fight. Lamar's death is HIS fault.

Tell me, when was Hulk the instigator? When Tony left that guy to the mob, did Tony walk into a peaceful situation and start a fight, then put an innocent man in the hands of aggressors?

Thor went off half cocked to Jotenheim and nearly started a war. He was stripped of his power and exiled for it. He had to do work and make sacrifices to repair the damage done.

What has John done to repair the damage done? Or he is still full of undeserved pride? Look how he looked down on every other person in the room at the beginning of Thunderbolts. He is still the ass hole that got his friend killed.

 Lance845 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


Maybe it's unfair to hold John to Steve level standards. Maybe it's unfair to hold ANYONE to those standards. But Cap doesn't just kill indiscriminately and he doesn't do it to a surrendering opponent. Even when that opponent is a monster.



Sam and Bucky were nowhere near as bad as Walker. Walker was brash, impatient, and escalated every situation he walked into into unnecessary violence. He was a liability in every scene he showed up in.

Except for The Dora Milaje scene I mentioned earlier, where Walker was the ONLY one trying to play nice. I will agree that the "Steve Standard" is a pretty high standard to meet. It's a standard that even other members of the Avengers aren't held to. Bucky was a ruthless assassin, but being mind controlled, so we give him a pass. Black Widow was ALSO an international assassin, but she was pressured into doing it, so we give her a pass. Tony Stark left an unarmed, helpless man to be lynched to death by an angry mob, but it's okay and we cheered for that. Scarlett Witch and Silverbolt were BOTH working for an evil, murderous robot that killed A LOT of innocent people.

Walker wasn't the only one trying to play nice with the Dora. Walker was inserting himself into a situation he didn't understand with people he didn't know and expected them to respect him for the title "Captain America". Bucky and Sam were having the conversation with the Dora knowing who they were, what they were capable of, and how things were likely to play out. John just struts up, "Hey there. I am Captain America. Good to meet you! Ladies, ladies ladies... why don't we all just calm down?"

He thought they were less then they were and he was disrespectful because that's who John is. He has too much pride and thinks others are less than himself until he got beat up and put in his place. And that wound to his pride drives his actions for the rest of the show.


As Cap would put it, it's about how you act knowing what you know. The twins didn't know what Ultron was planning. When they did they turned on him. In the end they did whats right. Natasha was a red room assassin. And she defected and worked to be something better. Every day with the Avengers was a step towards redemption. Steve is all about that gak. Hawkeye is the same. Bruce is the same.

Tony tries to do whats right. His heart is in the right place. But he never thinks of the consequences. And that why Steve disagrees with him and ultimately fights him. Not tries to kill him. He didn't attempt to kill Tony for trying to kill Bucky. An innocent man not at all responsible for Tony's parents deaths. He Tried to talk him down, then slow him down, then disable his ability to cause harm.

Let's circle back to Walker. A man with a bunch of wounded pride who just took a super soldier serum to try to patch the hole thinking it would get him the respect he thinks he deserves. Struts into a negotiation situation making demands and causing a fight when there didn't need to be one. See's his partner get killed because he entered that situation half cocked and caused the violence. Then goes on a rampage and runs down someone who did NOT kill his friend. John stands over him while he is surrendering and executes him with the symbol of Captain America.

In this situation, John was the aggressor. From beginning of the fight to the end of the fight. Lamar's death is HIS fault.

Tell me, when was Hulk the instigator? When Tony left that guy to the mob, did Tony walk into a peaceful situation and start a fight, then put an innocent man in the hands of aggressors?

Thor went off half cocked to Jotenheim and nearly started a war. He was stripped of his power and exiled for it. He had to do work and make sacrifices to repair the damage done.

What has John done to repair the damage done? Or he is still full of undeserved pride? Look how he looked down on every other person in the room at the beginning of Thunderbolts. He is still the ass hole that got his friend killed.

Well, at the end of F&WS he had the option to either take out the bad guys, or save innocent people, and he chose to save people. I feel like he wants to be a hero, but doesn't quite get it. As for the super hero serum, he didn't exactly immediately take it either. He debated about it, and his friend did throw a number of arguments his way in support of taking it.

Don't forget they did not want John Walker to be a villain, they wanted him available to have a redemption arc.

Like say, in Thunderbolts.

He’s not beyond redemption. That’s kind of the point of his character.

We see some of it in The New Avengers, but there’s a road to go yet.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
He’s not beyond redemption. That’s kind of the point of his character.

We see some of it in The New Avengers, but there’s a road to go yet.

Oh, yeah, definitely a ways to go. A lot of what he does seems to be "bad things, but for the right reasons". Of course he falls a little flat when compared to true anti-heroes like the Punisher, with whom we nod with approval when he beats a "banned topic" video peddler to death with a baseball bat. Of course the argument to be had there is that the Punisher is specifically NOT trying to be a hero, he's just doing things he thinks need to be done, and actually hates his own fan-boys. Walker, much like Red Guardian, wants to be admired. I mean, I can't really say I blame him there, most of us do.

Overall he gives me the vibe of a minor-league ball player that was pulled up to the Major Leagues before he was ready. It's not that he's bad, just not ready, and the public will call him out for it anyway. I have a feeling Spiderman would have been the same way (minus the killing) had Tony Stark not kept a VERY close eye on him and on a tight leash at the beginning.

He’s also walking in the shadow of Steve Rogers. More than any hero, Captain America didn’t actually exist. It wasn’t a person Steve created. It was just Steve.

His sense of right and wrong and of justice? His desire to defeat but not necessarily kill bullies? All Steve.

The American People of the MCU think they want a new Captain America. But they really want a new Steve Rogers.

Of course, there’s the political commentary subtext about US Agent and Cap reflecting two different American Ideals, but this is Dakka, so I’ll just mention it and move on.

I agree that Walker isn't an outright villain. I agree he WANTS to be a hero, though he doesn't really understand what that means yet. And I agree he has a way to go to get there. He does WANT to save people. But he is still arrogant and brash and his pride still gets in his way.

Nothing says how far Walker still has to go like the way he treated the rest of the would be Thunderbolts when they first met. His every word was about how much better than them he was the entire time.

He isn't a villain. And he can/wants to do good. But he is nowhere near the moral compass or example Steve is/was. Sam is doing a much better job living up to that.

Steve is good.
Walker is lawful.

Their stories are largely about how they fluctuate through the other half of that graph.

 Lance845 wrote:


He isn't a villain. And he can/wants to do good. But he is nowhere near the moral compass or example Steve is/was. Sam is doing a much better job living up to that.

I think Sam is trying to be the moral compass, but falling nearly as flat on it as Walker is at being a hero. Sam's infamous "do better" speach to the politicians was just cringe. Yeah Sam? Do better? Have any suggestions there buddy? Easy to say, hard to do. Even the Lady politician pointed out it's a hard job and they are doing what they can with what they have.

I don’t think that was cringe at all.

Sam is Captain Falcon America. It’s not his job to improve politics and the country. That’s the literal job of Politicians. His job is to defend the country as best he can.

By simply saying “Do Better”, he speaks for who knows how many regular Americans that are struggling, regardless of the political affiliation. It’s not enough for Politicians to just chest beat or wring their hands over how bad things are. They’ve the power and the responsibility to literally Do Better, for as many Americans as possible.

We watched it last week and also really enjoyed it. Some points that made it a good movie in my opinion:

- for a superhero movie surprisingly tame on the special effects side.

which I found rather refreshing
- taking time for some random bull**** talking, especially from red guardian. At times it was endearingly absurd and got some Guardians of the Galaxy 1 vibes in there
- overall interesting concept for an antagonist.

One thing I missed a bit was: