DEC 1 Death Guard
DEC 2 Dark Angels
DEC 3 Tyranids
DEC 4 Thousand Sons
DEC 5 Adeptus Mechanicus
DEC 6 Necrons
DEC 7 Deathwatch
DEC 8 Adeptus Custodes
DEC 8 Officio Assassinorum
DEC 9 Chaos Knights
DEC 9 Imperial Knights
DEC 10 Grey Knights
DEC 11 Space Marines
DEC 12 Chaos Space Marines (Bile)
DEC 13 Eldar
DEC 13 Dark Eldar
DEC 14 Orks
DEC 15 Imperial Guard
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 17 Leagues of Votann
DEC 18 Genestealer Cults
DEC 19 Sisters of Battle
DEC 20 Blood Angels
DEC 21 Tau
DEC 22 Black Templar
DEC 23 World Eaters
DEC 24 Space Wolves
DEC 25 Fulgrim Revealed
these detachments seem interesting so far. not sure how consequential they'll be, but more options for rules won't be a bad thing. maybe custodes get a good detachment out of this
So far the detachments seem to be geared toward fun theme lists, no super competitive ones. I like that. Add some different ways to play for those of us who are not seeking to win Grand Tournaments, only having fun games.
JNAProductions wrote: I’m looking forward to the Daemons detachment.
I don’t Deep Strike my daemons, so the current detachment is basically just the Endless Gift for me.
Don't you play mono Nurgle? Why do you not deepstrike them?
And you will be happy to know that demons are getting 4 detachments, so you'll have a Nurgle themed one to enjoy
JNAProductions wrote: I’m looking forward to the Daemons detachment.
I don’t Deep Strike my daemons, so the current detachment is basically just the Endless Gift for me.
Don't you play mono Nurgle? Why do you not deepstrike them?
And you will be happy to know that demons are getting 4 detachments, so you'll have a Nurgle themed one to enjoy
I did not know we were getting four for Grotmas. That’s neat!
And I win more than I lose just stomping up the table. It works well for me.
skeleton wrote: Custodes dont need those, they are a pain in the ass to fight agains.
Eh, I guess that depends upon what type of force you build.
Me? I like very shooty forces. So I simply aim to stay out of melee contact, focus fire on a squad or two at a time, & shoot the poo out of them.
After a turn or two of this the Custode player generally lacks the ability to outscore me.
VladimirHerzog wrote: And you will be happy to know that demons are getting 4 detachments, so you'll have a Nurgle themed one to enjoy
When was this mentioned - I don't think I've read that on WHC, though I may have missed something.
We can't be that far off the first double detachment day, assuming they're being spread through December and not crammed into the days immediately before Christmas.
And I can't figure out what they could give to Custodes...
All non infantry units taken as part of this detachment gain +3" movment. All mounted models weapons gain assault, All walker units gain +1AP if they haven't moved or charged in that turn.
And now that I posted it, GW is unable to put it in to print.
VladimirHerzog wrote: And you will be happy to know that demons are getting 4 detachments, so you'll have a Nurgle themed one to enjoy
When was this mentioned - I don't think I've read that on WHC, though I may have missed something.
We can't be that far off the first double detachment day, assuming they're being spread through December and not crammed into the days immediately before Christmas.
it was mentioned in the World championship stream, when they first announced they were doing the grotmas advent. (Same stream as the new eldar/krieg reveals)
Necron tomorrow. Looks like they are keeping the "Chaos, Loyalist, Xenos" pattern going. Want to place bets on what Saturday will bring? I'm betting Astra Militarum
Not a good sign for deathwatch that theyre dropping it on a saturday. In the marketing world, dropping big news or a release about something highly anticipated on a saturday (or late on friday afternoon in the US) is an indicator that negative blowback is expected and the staff doesnt want to take the abuse.
chaos0xomega wrote: Not a good sign for deathwatch that theyre dropping it on a saturday. In the marketing world, dropping big news or a release about something highly anticipated on a saturday (or late on friday afternoon in the US) is an indicator that negative blowback is expected and the staff doesnt want to take the abuse.
cuda1179 wrote: So how lazy is Deathwatch going to be? Un-Legending the lost units?
My hopes are high, but my expectations are low. It wouldn't take much effort at all to make a really compelling Deathwatch index, you could probably make at least 8 cool kill team data sheets just out of existing models (2 of each primaris armour, vet squad, terminators), and if you wanted some of the spicey unique wargear thrown in just make a lazy promise to make an upgrade frame for it later.
Crons looking strong - like a vehicle spam focused version of awakened dynasty.
At the risk of being sour without giving it a chance first, I don't think I like this one. It's basically just, "kill more betterer" with destroyers and vehicles vs units on objectives. I like the reactive move stratagem, but most of the mobility falls into the usual 8th-10th stratagem problem of only being able to express that mobility on one unit per turn. And the 'cron discord group I'm a part of seems to think this is going to be the new flatly most powerful 'cron detachment. Which, if true, I've got to deduct points for power creep.
I like the idea of a "cron fleet" swooping around the battlefield to methodically take out the enemy, but this detachment seems like it's basically one interesting mobility rule (the strat) and then a bunch of kill-more-betterer buffs. The Assault weapon rule isn't really needed by vehicles and basically just adds d6" to the threat range of tomb blades and destroyers for no downside.
I feel like a more interesting execution of this concept might be to emphasize the mobility more and the kill buffs less.
* Swap the detachment rule out for move-shoot-move, possibly with a -1 to-hit if that's too strong on its own.
* Have a strat that basically grants better plunging fire so that you're physically putting your models on tall terrain to draw attention to the fact that they're flying units attacking from above.
* Instead of auras of kill-better, make it an aura of auto-advance 6 and Assault guns; that way, more units are more likely to benefit from those rules, and it feels like your lord is personally leading a fast-moving wing of hovering threats. Which while visually cool is also probably less likely to run into castled-up aura buff scaling issues as you're not increasing the damage out put of your units so much as you're just giving more units a chance to do damage in the first place.
cuda1179 wrote: So how lazy is Deathwatch going to be? Un-Legending the lost units?
It's going to be some photocopied pages from the 9th Edition Codex, covered in post it notes and black marks.
Wow - it's even worse than that.
The ONLY Firstborn units that are available are Deathwatch Veterans and Kill Team Cassius - and KT Cassius ONLY in a non-tournament setting since they're still Legends. And since all the other Firstborn kill teams units are Agents of the Imperium, they can't even be included in non-tournament settings.
First few pages of rules - it's a reprint isn't it
Datasheets - oh cool there's new stuff and it seems pretty neat, improved weapon stats, better unit composition, a new unit, no more of the long vigil weapon nonsense!
Last page - fixed 10 man squads
I can deal with fixed 10-man squads. I usually did that anyway.
I'm actually quite miffed that they didn't include any transports other than the Corvus Blackstar.
They could have at least thrown the Rhino and Land Raider in there.
Overall though, way better than the Agents codex, and the removal of "Long Vigil weapons" makes me happy. The only thing other thing that makes me sad is no more 4-frag cannon squads. I used to live by those in 7th and 8th, with 4x4 squads of them.
cuda1179 wrote: I can deal with fixed 10-man squads. I usually did that anyway.
I'm actually quite miffed that they didn't include any transports other than the Corvus Blackstar.
They could have at least thrown the Rhino and Land Raider in there.
Overall though, way better than the Agents codex, and the removal of "Long Vigil weapons" makes me happy. The only thing other thing that makes me sad is no more 4-frag cannon squads. I used to live by those in 7th and 8th, with 4x4 squads of them.
Can’t they take everything that’s in the main SM book that’s not explicitly called out as not allowed?
cuda1179 wrote: I can deal with fixed 10-man squads. I usually did that anyway.
I'm actually quite miffed that they didn't include any transports other than the Corvus Blackstar.
They could have at least thrown the Rhino and Land Raider in there.
Overall though, way better than the Agents codex, and the removal of "Long Vigil weapons" makes me happy. The only thing other thing that makes me sad is no more 4-frag cannon squads. I used to live by those in 7th and 8th, with 4x4 squads of them.
Can’t they take everything that’s in the main SM book that’s not explicitly called out as not allowed?
Im sorry, but this Deathwatch detachment is damn good.
Did you see all the basic weapon increases? Is that going to happen to all marines?
S5 bolt weapons with an increase in AP by 1.
Indomitor kill team is actually bananas.
Terminator squad is 180pts but can take 3 cyclones.
My guess is this is a precursor to the marine bonus we are expecting.
The 10 man squads are expensive, but bring a lot of goodness. Hard part is lack of access to cheaper scoring units. No scouts so need to rely on small squads to score.
I'd be inclined to say those stat changes will not be rolled out to other Marine factions. They explicitly name them as Deathwatch variants in the weapon profiles
bullyboy wrote: Im sorry, but this Deathwatch detachment is damn good.
Did you see all the basic weapon increases? Is that going to happen to all marines?
S5 bolt weapons with an increase in AP by 1.
Indomitor kill team is actually bananas.
Terminator squad is 180pts but can take 3 cyclones.
My guess is this is a precursor to the marine bonus we are expecting.
The 10 man squads are expensive, but bring a lot of goodness. Hard part is lack of access to cheaper scoring units. No scouts so need to rely on small squads to score.
Yeah I tend to agree - it is really quite good. The problem is though, I don't think anyone anywhere will bother playing either the spectrus or fortis killteams at fixed 10 man unit sizes, but as 5 man units they would be great (even though they would lock themselves out of a lot of upgrades, they would have enough utility to be useful at scoring).
The good: - I LOVE the mixed squads, and that's a great return. - Terminators having more special weapon options (and access to things like plasma cannons) is a nice touch. - The site-to-site teleport strat is very fun looking. - I'm more than happy with the way units are split up (ie, by armour configuration). - No issue with how the basic Kill Team is split up when it comes to weapons (though I'd like if the xenophase blade and combi weapon could be given to any squad member, and that the stalker bolter could also be taken alongside a power weapon or shield).
The mixed: - I'd have liked if Suppressors could be taken in the Talonstrike team. - I'd have liked if Bladeguard Veterans could be taken in the Fortis team.
The bad: - Fixed ten model squads *sucks*. When I saw they could be taken in as little as 3 person squads, I was very pleased. Then I saw that you're not really even meant to take them in squads of 5. Not very good at all. I'd have preferred if it started at 5 (so, you *could* take them with a generic single box, or you could split your models out and still have small teams), with an optional 10. Definitely something I'd be houseruling. - The profile of the bolters in the kill team squad sadden me greatly, and is a general trend of my feelings towards Deathwatch bolt weapons in general. While I'm normally lenient on things like "special limited ammo" being a stratagem situation, for Deathwatch, I think it's entirely wrong. Not to mention just making not a lot of sense: plasma incinerators can benefit from hellfire shells? Huh?? I'm not massively a fan of some bolt weapons going up to S5 and +1AP, and would instead prefer what I suggest below: - I would have rather seen the Deathwatch detachment rule not be mission tactics, and be Special Issue Ammo instead, and have the (amended and modified) Mission Tactics be the stratagems instead. Something like the detachment rule be:
Whenever a Kill Team unit is selected to shoot, they may choose which Special Issue Ammunition to use. This applies until every model in the unit has resolved its attacks. - Hellfire Rounds: BOLT weapons in this unit have Anti-Infantry 2+ and Anti-Monster 5+. - Krakenfire Rounds: BOLT weapons in this unit improve their Armour Penetration by 1, and improve their range characteristic by 6". - Dragonfire Rounds: BOLT weapons in this unit gain the Assault and Ignores Cover abilities. - (optional) Metal Storm Rounds: BOLT weapons in this unit gain Sustained Hits 1 (or a improved by 1, if it already had Sustained Hits), and reduce the Armour Penetration by 1.
A BOLT weapon is any weapon which has bolt in the name, ie. bolt rifle, heavy bolt rifle, assault bolter, boltstorm gauntlets, bolt sniper rifle, etc. This does not include the heavy flamer profile of the infernus heavy bolter, but does include the Vigil Spear.
The controversial: - I think that a Deathwatch army should only be composed of these units, PLUS a few exceptions. - Having things like Librarians, Apothecaries, Techmarines and such is fine and good. - Deathwatch vehicles should be limited to the Corvus, Dreadnoughts/Invictor Warsuit, Rhino/Razorback, Land Raiders, Repulsors/Impulsors, and Drop Pods. The more typical Space Marine battle tanks (Predator/Vindicator/Whirlwind, etc) shouldn't be available. - Deathwatch shouldn't have access to generic squads (ie, Intercessors, Hellblasters, Infiltrators, etc.). If you want squads, you need to take Kill Teams, because that's the whole thing about Deathwatch: which is why I'd want Suppressors to be attached to Talonstrike teams, and Bladeguard Veterans attached to Fortis teams.
I recognise that might be a controversial take, but honestly, that fits "Deathwatch" better in my head than just taking normal squads with black armour and a silver arm. You play Deathwatch, you play with Kill Teams (again, with the caveat that Kill Teams can be taken in 3s or 5s, instead of only 10s.)
Oh well, it's been obvious that they're a dead army walking for years now anyway.
Yeah, I have a unit of 10 plasmagunners. I guess I can proxy them as Hellblasters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just looking at the numbers on the Fortis Kill team. A unit of 4 Intercessors, 4 Hellblasters, and 2 Desolators would be 236 points, if taken from their respective units. A Fortis team is only 200. Yes, you don't get the option of a plasma pistol on on of the Hellblasters, but that's really all you miss out on. Bonus: st 5 on Intercessors' guns. When you throw in the grenade launchers on the Intercessors that's a unit that has A LOT of dakka and can be annoying for infantry and light vehicles alike. With a power fist on the sergeant they aren't totally helpless in combat either.
Yeah, I’m planning a fortis kill team with 4 hellblasters , 2 desolation marines and Intercessors in a repulsor. Think it will be a decent mobile fire base unit. May even consider a drop pod for them.
A regular vet kill team led by watchmaster in rhino.
Deepstriling Indomitor team
Infiltrators for home base, and then Reivers and a couple ATVs in reserve for scoring
Support coming from lancer and redemptor
The Vindicare's Ehancement is super fun:
Micromelta Rounds [45 pts] – The Vindicare’s Exitus Rifle gains ANTI-MONSTER 4+ and ANTI-VEHICLE 4+.
There are some cool strategems too:
Orbital Oversight (Strategic Ploy, 1 CP) – Used in your opponent’s shooting phase just after they’ve selected targets, make an Agents of the Imperium Infantry unit untargetable outside of 18”, or if they have the Lone Operative ability they cannot be targeted outside of 6”.
But
While these guys could be used in smaller games (all 4 assassin is come to 585 points), I think this is more of "fun" detachment.
StudentOfEtherium wrote: Custodes detachment is neat, but i don't have enough dreadnoughts to make good use of it. certainly appreciate it existing, at least
Now I have to figure out if I can wiggle this into Crusade.
This is a very silly list indeed, but the thought of six dreadnoughts rushing your enemy while two Caladius tanks lay down withering fire at anything that dares to show itself is quite scary. The two telemons form the core, with one having 8 attacks at 13/2/4 in melee and the other one having a 5+ Feel No Pain, which stacks nicely with the 2+/4++ -1 damage defensive profile. Toss in the -1 to wound stratagem in a pinch and that behemoth isn’t going anywhere.
If you wanted to go full meme on this, you could fit 3 Achillus, 3 Galatus, 3 Telemons, and 2 regular Venerable dreadnoughts in the list with both Adamantine Talisman and Augury Uplink. Drunken dreadnoughts ride again!
A more reasonable take on this could be a couple warden bricks as they remain very good in this detachment with 4-5 additional dreadnoughts and some scoring.
Nightlord1987 wrote: This detachment seem pretty fun to run even without the Killteams. There's plenty of units that love free lethal or sustained per turn.
Only the Kill Teams get Mission Tactics for free. The bit up above the individual tactics options says that they only apply to units with the Mission Tactics ability that is next to Oath on the datasheets in the index. You can pay a CP for it, but most of the time you probably want to keep Sustained on two kill teams anyway. Literally no one is going to play this correctly.
Overall the Deathwatch index is far better than I expected and legitimately pretty exciting. The Kill Team reworks are all a lot smarter than what we had at the start of 10th and work quite well with the detachment. The big drawback is definitely the lack of cheap units that can run objectives. Reivers may actually see play for this which is mildly horrifying. There's a lot of fun and powerful synergies here and I'm excited to give it a try.
In terms of the detachment, its mostly the same, but limited the ammo to KTs mostly fixes the early issues with it without making it useless on bolters. Two uses for free a turn will keep them in rotation. Adaptive Tactics and Sight to Sight are both nuts though and absolutely definite the army. The enhancements are all worth taking except Ossius but hard to budget.
The KT updates are mostly solid. The new Fortis has a poor ability but is at least no longer a confused nightmare of nonfunctional loadouts. I'm not sure its good with no real melee presence and a mix of profile roles, but its cheap and efficient and might be worth it on that alone. Teminators are the best Terminators and probably a sign that generic terminators are getting a price cut. Indomintor is really strong. Strong ability, crazy bolter profiles and combines extremely well with SIA. Talonstrike has similar things going for it and the two will likely define the list. Phobos is probably the dud and easily the one that would have shined as a 5 man.
Overall, extremely happy with this. Will I remain happy post dataslate? Probably not? Still, its way way more effort than I expected.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Are you going to build a Deathwatch force using this update?
I'm definitely going to test out a list or 3. Deathwatch has been my primary faction since they released in 7th and I've got a pretty huge collection of them ready to go.
I really like the Chaos Knight detachment. I always thought that Chaos Knights should be able to use cultists as cultists usually appear around Knights. It is cool that they can use all of the damned units, as well. As the Chaos Knight detachment rule is garbage, I think this is worth a try. Losing some of the strats hurts, but I think worth it for the [Sustained] hits for sacrificing some cultists.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Are you going to build a list around the grotmas changes?
Some of them, sure.
so far they fall pretty evenly into 3 categories for me - Yes/Maybe/No.
YES *Necrons - why not? I already own every Necron unit to make whatever combo I want anyways....
*Custodes - this one won't be super useful to me, but I just like the idea of making my lone Telemon not only a character, but the Warlord
*Imp. Agents - ahh, fun with Assasins. *Deathguard
MAYBE *Death Watch
*Imperial Knights - I rarely field my Knights as there own force here in 40k. But this adds options, so it'll be considered.
*Chaos Knights - as above, except I have even less dedicated CKs to work with
NO *AdMech - I don't have an AdMech army atm & I'm not spending time/$ on it just because of this detachment.
*T-Sons - as above. Except with the AM I at least find them interesting & so will eventually build something for them one of these years.
But Thousand Sons just don't do anything for me. The only way I ever see having this force is if I inherit one or come across a beautifully painted one crazy dirt dirt cheap.
*Tyranids - only because all of my Tyranids are currently in deep storage & I don't feel motivated to dig them out
*Dark Angels - no, because my army is pure 3rd Co. I don't have any DW/RW stuff in the force.
But Thousand Sons just don't do anything for me. The only way I ever see having this force is if I inherit one or come across a beautifully painted one crazy dirt dirt cheap.
Not too loud, the Tzeentch fangirls are always watching.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Are you going to build a list around the grotmas changes?
Death Guard: No - I am comically anti-Nurgle.
Dark Angels: Maybe? I own enough models to give it a whirl, though many of them aren't built yet.
Tyranids: Probably not - It's wholly reliant upon Warriors, and I don't have nearly enough to make it worthwhile.
Thousand Sons: I'll give it a whirl - it doesn't require anything different from the existing detachment.
AdMech: No - I'm not going start AdMech. Though I'll consider Dark Mech if they make it to 40k.
Necrons: I'll give it a whirl.
Deathwatch: No.
Custodes: I am so tempted to try March of the Dreadnoughts, but it would be SO expensive!
Agents: Abso-fething-lutely!
Imperial Knights: No - see AdMech.
Chaos Knights: I already have all the cultists I need, so I'm gonna try it.
To answer my own question... since I am rejoining this Cult, and starting fresh...
I could build the Golden Kool-Aid Man Adeptus Custodes army. It might be cheaper than a regular army... I still have to do the math.
I love the idea of AdMech mixed in with Knights as this is what my HH30k army is leaning into... but it feels odd that Enginseers are not apart of the list.
I honestly don't know enough about the other armies to make any kind of informed decison.
Waiting for Orks- Hope it won't be last one, but given nature of Grotmas- maybe. That said, hope detachment is all Grot list and bringing back tanks, but doubtful as the Dread Mob can be a Grot army in a pinch.
Deathwatch would be the only Marines faction I ever build, as I've liked the lore and Aesthetics since I bought the Inquisitor book and HUGE 52mm Artemis model when they first came out. (Ack! My bones!!) Plus it's a good way to have more modelling options, as I could have one marine from every chapter I like and/ or make up some. It'd be nice to have only one shelf devoted to an army, not the Orky horde swarm that is 3!
TheChrispyOne wrote: Waiting for Orks- Hope it won't be last one, but given nature of Grotmas- maybe. That said, hope detachment is all Grot list and bringing back tanks, but doubtful as the Dread Mob can be a Grot army in a pinch.
Deathwatch would be the only Marines faction I ever build, as I've liked the lore and Aesthetics since I bought the Inquisitor book and HUGE 52mm Artemis model when they first came out. (Ack! My bones!!) Plus it's a good way to have more modelling options, as I could have one marine from every chapter I like and/ or make up some. It'd be nice to have only one shelf devoted to an army, not the Orky horde swarm that is 3!
Since GW is so flakey with them, I've started to make mine an omni-chapter. Just finished Calgar in black with a silver arm and I'm currently working on Helbrecht and Sword Brethren with the same. I'd planned to do some Deathwingwatch but alas, did not manage to snap a Battleforce.
But Thousand Sons just don't do anything for me. The only way I ever see having this force is if I inherit one or come across a beautifully painted one crazy dirt dirt cheap.
Not too loud, the Tzeentch fangirls are always watching.
Well then every now & then they'll spot me running a squad of 10 ancient 1KSon marines from 2e(?) when I put generic CSM on the table.
I'm still not inspired enough to make a full force of them.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Are you going to build a list around the grotmas changes?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Grey Knights tomorrow!
I'll definitely give Necrons a whirl, I don't have enough vehicles to spam to make it overpowered though so will probably end up with a weaker list compared to sticking with my usual Awakened Dynasty.
If I can figure out a solution for new scale Terminator shoulder pads (and Gravis too, only 2 pads per frame and fixed 10 man squads!), I'll eventually get around to finishing off enough Deathwatch in time for 11th edition.
Waiting impatiently on World Eaters.
Funny how Necrons stole the Grey Knights deep strike schtick with hypercypt and now Grey Knights stole back from them with their version of Canoptek Court.
Hmm.
That detachment looks slightly more usefull than my current one.
I think I'll give it a try the next time the GK take the field.
Opinion from GK players elsewhere seems to be that it's not terrible but also not as good as the index. The index has Armor of Contempt and that Mists strat that lets you scoop a unit up to avoid being shot at. This one gives you a little more offense, but you give up some defense and mobility for it.
Hmm.
That detachment looks slightly more usefull than my current one.
I think I'll give it a try the next time the GK take the field.
Opinion from GK players elsewhere seems to be that it's not terrible but also not as good as the index. The index has Armor of Contempt and that Mists strat that lets you scoop a unit up to avoid being shot at. This one gives you a little more offense, but you give up some defense and mobility for it.
But, crucially, the new one encourages infantry over baby carriers.
Looks like a Librarian focused detachment, which seems really niche given it's basically just a few models worth in the army but the buffs don't look bad surprisingly, just not sure if it's worth losing Gladius buffs given that it forces you to concentrate on 2-3 key unit pieces that can actually bring Librarians to the table (who are also pretty squishy).
i'm not even much of a space marines fan, but librarians are the most exciting unit from the army, so i'm definitely a fan of this detachment, even if only in theoretical terms
This is the kind of thing I was expecting from the Grotmas detachments, fun fluffy detachments that you can use in fun games that focus on some niche units or builds, not meta destroying power detachments (which it looks like Necron will be).
I really would LOVE to see a detachment for CSM that does something just like this for psykers. Also CSM have more access to psykers (with the ability to add a psyker to Legionaries just in the squad) so I think it would have more impact, but would still be a cool and fluffy detachment. Also this is just a better detachment than the TS got. : (
BTW, re-looked at the detachment and it doesn't say you can't reuse a discipline, so that is cool, you can just stay in telepathy if you like.
The librarian one is really neat! Lots of flavor. Nothing seems over the top, but it also seems useful enough to actually play it without feeling like you're nerfing yourself.
I'd still probably prefer we just bring back powers as optional wargear (probably with a points cost), but this is a pretty cool bandaid.
Would love for Thousand Sons to get something similar.
But Armigers got a 10 point reduction and an Allied Vindicare Assassin dropped to 100 points, so I'm happy.
At a tournament I was at this past weekend, a group of us were discussing how powerful Miracle dice were, as well as the Bringers of Flame - which was my Round 3 game. This feels timely.
The allied Vindicare is 125 - it had been 150.
And... ::slow clap:: ...for increasing the points on a unit they don't even sell models for. Peak GW.
And... ::slow clap:: ...for increasing the points on a unit they don't even sell models for. Peak GW.
To paraphrase Jack Skelington..."What unit is this?"
The Grotesques. GW's only ever made one model for them: they were ugly and Finecast, so nobody bought them. They're no longer on sale, and they're right at the top of the list of things that need a new kit with their codex.
Hellebore wrote: the space marine deatchment is giving me hope for the craftworld seer detachment giving more psychic shenanigans.
And hey, look. an instance where the psychic keyword actually has a positive effect. I know some people here will be happy to see that change.
I would have been very happy...
Had it been a universal change, and not something that only applies to marines, who already have 7 detachments, plus the detachments are in their supplement (for those that have them).
Hellebore wrote: the space marine deatchment is giving me hope for the craftworld seer detachment giving more psychic shenanigans.
And hey, look. an instance where the psychic keyword actually has a positive effect. I know some people here will be happy to see that change.
I would have been very happy...
Had it been a universal change, and not something that only applies to marines, who already have 7 detachments, plus the detachments are in their supplement, for those that have them.
Why does Psyker get complaints about being a Keyword that only gives penalties, but Monster doesn't?
Hellebore wrote: the space marine deatchment is giving me hope for the craftworld seer detachment giving more psychic shenanigans.
And hey, look. an instance where the psychic keyword actually has a positive effect. I know some people here will be happy to see that change.
I would have been very happy...
Had it been a universal change, and not something that only applies to marines, who already have 7 detachments, plus the detachments are in their supplement, for those that have them.
Why does Psyker get complaints about being a Keyword that only gives penalties, but Monster doesn't?
To clarify- my comment wasn't about the Psyker keyword- when I quoted Hellebore, I should have cut out everything but the "I know some people here will be happy."
I don't care one way or the other about whether the effects of a keyword are positive or negative; what I would have been happy about (had it applied universally) was the fact that players can now choose from a list of effects that feel like actual powers rather than just a fixed extra weapon profile or invulnerable save. But you know, the nice things have to go to the faction that already has 2-3 times as many options as everyone else.
I suppose I would be able to use it with Deathwatch... But only the Deathwatch detachment actually makes Deathwatch feel like Deathwatch, since all SIA rules are covered by detachment rules rather than datacards.
Hellebore wrote: the space marine deatchment is giving me hope for the craftworld seer detachment giving more psychic shenanigans.
And hey, look. an instance where the psychic keyword actually has a positive effect. I know some people here will be happy to see that change.
I would have been very happy...
Had it been a universal change, and not something that only applies to marines, who already have 7 detachments, plus the detachments are in their supplement, for those that have them.
Why does Psyker get complaints about being a Keyword that only gives penalties, but Monster doesn't?
To clarify- my comment wasn't about the Psyker keyword- when I quoted Hellebore, I should have cut out everything but the "I know some people here will be happy."
I don't care one way or the other about whether the effects of a keyword are positive or negative; what I would have been happy about (had it applied universally) was the fact that players can now choose from a list of effects that feel like actual powers rather than just a fixed extra weapon profile or invulnerable save. But you know, the nice things have to go to the faction that already has 2-3 times as many options as everyone else.
I suppose I would be able to use it with Deathwatch... But only the Deathwatch detachment actually makes Deathwatch feel like Deathwatch, since all SIA rules are covered by detachment rules rather than datacards.
I agree with that, though I'd not limit it to Psyker units. If that's what you meant by "applied universally" then yeah, 100% on board.
Probably legacy from most of the game's history where a psyker was a thing that did things, rather than a keyword that denotes when an anti weapon kills you easier.
With the psychic powers being special rules or weapons, a psyker isn't really anything now. I understand why mechanically, but I can see how it just makes psykers look boring.
Also agree on the universal application, but my original post was hoping that the seer council got similar given they don't seem to be interested in universal.
Hellebore wrote: Probably legacy from most of the game's history where a psyker was a thing that did things, rather than a keyword that denotes when an anti weapon kills you easier.
With the psychic powers being special rules or weapons, a psyker isn't really anything now. I understand why mechanically, but I can see how it just makes psykers look boring.
Also agree on the universal application, but my original post was hoping that the seer council got similar given they don't seem to be interested in universal.
Which is why Psychic abilities/weapons should be notably better than non-Psychic counterparts, or cheaper, or something.
Look at Assault Intercessors. Their Power Weapon? 4 attacks at S5 AP-2 D1.
Strike Squad's Nemesis Force Weapons? One less attack, but S6AP-2 D2. And it's on every member of the squad, not just the Sergeant (which is probably why there's one less attack).
Hellebore wrote: Probably legacy from most of the game's history where a psyker was a thing that did things, rather than a keyword that denotes when an anti weapon kills you easier.
With the psychic powers being special rules or weapons, a psyker isn't really anything now. I understand why mechanically, but I can see how it just makes psykers look boring.
Also agree on the universal application, but my original post was hoping that the seer council got similar given they don't seem to be interested in universal.
Which is why Psychic abilities/weapons should be notably better than non-Psychic counterparts, or cheaper, or something.
Look at Assault Intercessors. Their Power Weapon? 4 attacks at S5 AP-2 D1.
Strike Squad's Nemesis Force Weapons? One less attack, but S6AP-2 D2. And it's on every member of the squad, not just the Sergeant (which is probably why there's one less attack).
This is one of the things that irks me when people claim there's nothing making a psyker special this edition. The special thing is that they get to *do the thing* in the first place. Most marines aren't shooting lightning or manipulating time or putting up force fields. Librarians are.
I don't feel like psykers are less cool because I don't have to roll 2d6 and ask my opponent to please deny the power before I shoot lightning or bend time this edition.
What would the Dakka community think if the Thousand Sons detachment had one small but useful sentence added to their detachment rule?
"Prosperine Kopeshes and Tzaangor Blades count as [Psychic] attacks in this detachment."
Would that work for you? It gives the detachment an obvious identity (not CoM-lite), allows for a few cool uses for underused units (Scarabs and Tzaangor), but doesn't really overpower them because the detachment rule is still pretty bad.
Would a unit of S6/S7 Termies or Tzaangor help too much, or not enough? Reroll 1's or +1 to-wound in melee isn't that big on either, but it's a nice chipper boost. It's not saying "don't take Magnus", but after you take 1-2 units of either Scarabs or Chickens, you'd be hard pressed into having the points too. And less cabal points and shooting psychic for the effort.
(And honestly, even at peak performance, they're like 300+pt Powerfist side-grades on Termies, or 1 200+pt medium melee unit with good OC)
We already do a bit of melee, but this does other melee, and other OC. Yeah, there's Mutas, but they don't do psychic.
Would that one sentence addition change it into an ok'ish detachment? Just a different way that you can play your army, with not-very-used troops (that aren't bad, they're just not good at anything for the points, even with the MFM update). So, a potential second style of play might be handy, rather than CoM "now only three-quarters as good" edition.
It's like they didn't know we didn't have that many psychic attacks (just heaps of rules that make it feel like we did). But if we could have a few more in this detachment (melee, but we don't have that other than Magnus or DPs usually), would that work for you?
It just "feels" a lot better, with that sentence. And adds a tonne of build options, that you never would have taken before. Almost like it's TSons "could try and do melee/ OC" edition, which is a good thing I think.
It'd honestly still be weaker than an optimized competitive CoM list, or a whacky skew CoM list, but it'd add so many builds options on what's starting to feel like a small and stale list (dusty, perhaps?).
But I think it'd add enough options and play styles that it would be a "detachment with a reason to exist", and be more in the 85-95% range compared to CoM, while doing some match-ups far better.
Rather than "just the same, but worse", it really could fill several niches that we can't currently do, while not taking away from other potential detachments if we ever get a codex (daemon engines, cultists extreme, fast attack/ light tanks, daemons++, etc).
It sort of fills the spot of "elite, but not Magnus", and "birdy-bois" with one stone. So we can get awesome stuff on all the other stuff, instead of a 3/4s same-list.
((You can happily take 1-2 Termie units, and get something out of them. Or 2-5 Birdies. And/or characters supporting them. As well as foot DPs, or (possibly) winged DPs. Alongside all our other "actually good stuff", and maybe have a unit of deepstriking Rubrics too. Again, have fun finding the points or cabals for it to all work together. But that's a lot of things you'd never normally take, doing stuff they never normally do. A couple of 10 birdies to come in from strategic? Great, 2x 20 OC, to turn detachment on. Great big chonky stack of Termies w/character? Hard to kill, can charge.
Melee strats? Yep, they're mostly all there....
Just a very different detachment from CoM with that one sentence added.))
(((Still don't know why our Daemon Princes don't have Deepstrike. It's like a weirdly specific nerf, considering literally every other faction's does. You'd think Tzeentch ones would definitely have it)))
Anyway, that's my head-canon of a community-fixup-patch for Hexwarp Thrallband v1.1 "the un-f*ening".
Which is why Psychic abilities/weapons should be notably better than non-Psychic counterparts, or cheaper, or something.
Look at Assault Intercessors. Their Power Weapon? 4 attacks at S5 AP-2 D1.
Strike Squad's Nemesis Force Weapons? One less attack, but S6AP-2 D2. And it's on every member of the squad, not just the Sergeant (which is probably why there's one less attack).
This is one of the things that irks me when people claim there's nothing making a psyker special this edition. The special thing is that they get to *do the thing* in the first place. Most marines aren't shooting lightning or manipulating time or putting up force fields. Librarians are.
I don't feel like psykers are less cool because I don't have to roll 2d6 and ask my opponent to please deny the power before I shoot lightning or bend time this edition.
When it comes to psychic powers as weapon profiles, yes, I can see the advantage of being a psychic by looking at the strength of the weapon profile. And I think (correct me if I'm wrong) psychic shooting attacks are always in addition to regular shooting, but most melee attacks. So yes, there's an advantage.
The problem comes with the other ways psychic powers are represented. If all lieutenant level characters have a 5+ invulnerable save and all commanders have a 4+, does attaching the word psychic to that save make it feel in any way different from or in addition to what would normally be a part of the character profile via another source?
Still, I haven't combed extensively through all the data cards to see how prevalent invulnerable saves are... So maybe there are enough characters without them that they do feel special. But datacard abilities are the real problem, because every unit in the game has one, and every Leader in the game has two whether those units are psychic or not. So when a Librarian with the Leader keyword has two abilities, nothing is special about either of those abilities because they are psychic. If the character were not psychic, the only difference would be that GW would have to figure out different fluff for whatever rule would be there in its place. Now certainly, if the Librarian has one Leader power (not psychic) one personal power (not psychic) AND an additional power (psychic), then yes, that character IS actually getting something special, or at least something in addition to a character of equivalent points could be expected to have.
But I think the biggest thing that prevents psychic powers from feeling special is the lack of choice. Yes, a psychic weapon profile will be stronger than other weapon profiles, and it can sometimes be used in addition to other weapon profiles... But it still is just another weapon profile... Which is a thing that every unit has. An actual psychic attack power would be something that was not a weapon profile. It would be something in addition to a weapon profile, which was possessed only by other psykers. And it wouldn't be assigned by default to all models of the same type; it would be selected from a list of other powers which were neither weapon profiles nor datacard abilities, but in addition to them. This would mean that if you had two Librarians of the same type in your army, they could serve different tactical roles because their powers would be chosen rather than assigned.
I did also make our one combo-box/ combat patrol not "absolutely-f'ing-terrible" with it. Like, you could buy 1 Termie Sorc, or one Shaman, or 10 Rubrics, and think "this is a good start to collecting Thousand Sons". There's a detachment that supports those purchasing decisions.
It's an absolute bloody embarrassment otherwise.
(Note: I did not buy a TSons combat patrol, nor would I buy one for someone else for Grotmas, unless it gets made "not sh*te".)
PenitentJake wrote: So when a Librarian with the Leader keyword has two abilities, nothing is special about either of those abilities because they are psychic. If the character were not psychic, the only difference would be that GW would have to figure out different fluff for whatever rule would be there in its place.
See, that's the thing. Something being psychic in nature doesn't really matter 99% of the time. Nor should it. If someone has a forcefield, it doesn't generally matter whether said forcefield is coming from a gadget on their backpack or from some mind magic. If someone is hurling a lightning bolt at you and it behaves like lightning, it doesn't matter whether the bolt came from a gun or the warp. If someone is disappearing from one location and reappearing elsewhere, it doesn't matter whether they just activated the teleport homer/jump pack or if they sank into the shadows and emerged from the darkness across the table.
The end result is generally the same (setting aside anti-psychic fields for a moment). Adding extra mechanics to make them "feel special" just kind of strikes me as overcomplicating the rules for basically no reason. Having an X% chance of your psychic "gun" not working isn't fluffy for most psykers in the game, doesn't lead to interesting choices, and doesn't make the psychic "gun" feel special. At least not to me.
Now certainly, if the Librarian has one Leader power (not psychic) one personal power (not psychic) AND an additional power (psychic), then yes, that character IS actually getting something special, or at least something in addition to a character of equivalent points could be expected to have.
See. This is bizarre to me. A librarian shooting lightning and bending time doesn't feel psychic enough, but if he can shout orders or give a squad a scout move or whatever in addition to that, suddenly his psychic powers are acceptable.
But I think the biggest thing that prevents psychic powers from feeling special is the lack of choice.
I find it interesting that whenever the topic of powers not "feeling special" comes up, people almost always come back to this. I feel like the way psychic powers work is fine and what people actually miss is the ability to customize their character's power selections. Which. Totally get it. Fully agree. But can someone tell me why people always seem to conflate the psychic system with power/wargear customization? Those are two very different things. (Not trying to pick on you here, Jake. Just perplexed by how often this seems to be the case.)
Yes, a psychic weapon profile will be stronger than other weapon profiles, and it can sometimes be used in addition to other weapon profiles... But it still is just another weapon profile... Which is a thing that every unit has. An actual psychic attack power would be something that was not a weapon profile. It would be something in addition to a weapon profile, which was possessed only by other psykers.
I mean, this historically hasn't necessarily been the case. Look at the powers from 7th edition. When you're telekinetically hurtling rocks at people, it has a statline that makes you think someone is flinging rocks around. When someone is conjuring a jet of flames, the profile looks an awful lot like a flamer. When a rune priest shoots a lightning bolt, its stats look an awful lot like some necron tesla guns.
Sure, sometimes you have Eldritch Storms spinning vehicles around or Jaws of the World Wolf doing weird initiative tests. But sometimes you're just a pink horror tossing a shooting attack at the enemy. I'm not any less impressed by a librarian shooting melta beams around and protecting himself with a kineshield just because you can get similar rules from a meltagun and iron halo.
And it wouldn't be assigned by default to all models of the same type; it would be selected from a list of other powers which were neither weapon profiles nor datacard abilities, but in addition to them. This would mean that if you had two Librarians of the same type in your army, they could serve different tactical roles because their powers would be chosen rather than assigned.
Right. Customization. Which we agree would be nice, but the fact that two librarians know how to do the same things doesn't make those things any less psychic in nature. We don't need psychic tests and deny the witch roles and extra phases of the turn that make timing awkward because this movement power should really have just happened in the movement phase and this melee power could really just be handled in the fight phase and so forth.
sambojin wrote: What would the Dakka community think if the Thousand Sons detachment had one small but useful sentence added to their detachment rule?
"Prosperine Kopeshes and Tzaangor Blades count as [Psychic] attacks in this detachment."
Would that work for you? It gives the detachment an obvious identity (not CoM-lite), allows for a few cool uses for underused units (Scarabs and Tzaangor), but doesn't really overpower them because the detachment rule is still pretty bad.
Would a unit of S6/S7 Termies or Tzaangor help too much, or not enough? Reroll 1's or +1 to-wound in melee isn't that big on either, but it's a nice chipper boost. It's not saying "don't take Magnus", but after you take 1-2 units of either Scarabs or Chickens, you'd be hard pressed into having the points too. And less cabal points and shooting psychic for the effort.
(And honestly, even at peak performance, they're like 300+pt Powerfist side-grades on Termies, or 1 200+pt medium melee unit with good OC)
We already do a bit of melee, but this does other melee, and other OC. Yeah, there's Mutas, but they don't do psychic.
Would that one sentence addition change it into an ok'ish detachment? Just a different way that you can play your army, with not-very-used troops (that aren't bad, they're just not good at anything for the points, even with the MFM update). So, a potential second style of play might be handy, rather than CoM "now only three-quarters as good" edition.
It's like they didn't know we didn't have that many psychic attacks (just heaps of rules that make it feel like we did). But if we could have a few more in this detachment (melee, but we don't have that other than Magnus or DPs usually), would that work for you?
It just "feels" a lot better, with that sentence. And adds a tonne of build options, that you never would have taken before. Almost like it's TSons "could try and do melee/ OC" edition, which is a good thing I think.
Thousand Sons aren't - and aren't intended to be - a close combat army. Khopeshes are pretty good against anything that is smaller than a Terminator/Gravis model, and Magnus can pretty much ruin anyone's day. Where the Sons excel is in close-range firefights, and I'm not sure there's anything that can really be done to make them a combat army. That just not What They Do.
The disappointment with this new detachment is that it really doesn't offer up anything different than what we already have, or put the focus on different units.
I don't miss the psychic phase one bit, but I would like the abilities on psychic characters to be a little more reality warping. Da'Jump feels like a suitable tampering with the Warp. Giving your unit an invul save just feels like any other leadership ability.
Inside this spoiler tag is my response to Wyldhunt's response to my. disatisfaction with 10th ed psychic rules; that disatisfaction was mentioned in this thread because the new marine librarian detachment fixes some of my biggest problems with 10th's psychic rules, but by doing so only for Marines, it actually makes 10th's psychic system (or lack there of) fell even worse, because now it's an inadequate system that only applies to second-class armies. I hid it in a spoiler because it is hell of a long response, and the argument is a tangent from the main discussion.
I hope some people still read it... But then sometimes I feel like people ignore my posts even when I don't hide them, so whatever.
PenitentJake wrote: So when a Librarian with the Leader keyword has two abilities, nothing is special about either of those abilities because they are psychic. If the character were not psychic, the only difference would be that GW would have to figure out different fluff for whatever rule would be there in its place.
See, that's the thing. Something being psychic in nature doesn't really matter 99% of the time. Nor should it.
Respectfully, you are wrong. When one use a weapon, they pull a trigger, and if they aimed properly, someone dies. Somebody with a different gun still pulls the trigger, and if they aimed properly someone dies. When someone uses a psychic power, they take the substance of another dimension, the stuff of daemons and nightmares into themselves, and if they can control it, they can shape into one of several possible effects, one of which MIGHT be shooting lightning across the field. The first two examples are things that any human, from a guardsmen penal trooper to a chaptermaster can do, but the third is a thing that only one in a million can do, and those one in a million are hunted and exterminated when they can't be controlled, because if their power goes wrong, it can destroy worlds or summon horrors into existence.
Given the similarity of examples A & B, using similar mechanics to represent those actions makes sense. But the third example, being so profoundly different from the first two, should not be resolved using the same mechanics. It should FEEL different because it IS different. If you treat it the same way as a gun, it just feels like a gun. But it isn't. The lowliest Grot or Ogryn can use a gun. There is nothing special about them. Hell, they exist in our modern world that's how boring they are. Why would you want a potentially cataclysmic event, a supernatural force shaped by the will of a one-in-a-million creature to be treated and resolved in the same manner as something that you or I good do in the real world after taking a a trip to the local sports store with zero training?
THAT is the thing doesn't make sense here.
I think part of our difference of opinion here is that you are coming at the psychic rules as if you're designing a game from scratch, and your goal is to make it as easy to play and efficient as possible to reduce mental load.
I am looking at the 40 years of game that came before 10th and trying to figure out how to make something that is a byproduct of one of the most unique, thematic and disturbing elements of the game feel as significant as it is in the fictional world of the game, and I believe that if a player has insufficient personal capacity to deal with that mental load, they should simply play another game, since catering to that lowest common denominator would make the game so simple that it is boring to people who DO have that personal cognitive capacity and are only interested in hobbies that provide opportunities for them to use it.
If that sounds elitist, sue me. If I wanted to play checkers, I'd just play checkers, not try to make 40k into checkers.
If someone has a forcefield, it doesn't generally matter whether said forcefield is coming from a gadget on their backpack or from some mind magic.
It does though. Because using the forcefield is something a child could do. Press the button, forcefield on. Press again, forcefield off. You do not need to be a librarian to use a forcefield. You don't even need to be a soldier. And if something goes wrong with the forcefield? What's the worst that can happen? Whereas if something goes wrong with a psychic power, it could lead to the death of a planet. Do we sacrifice thousands of people with forcefields every day to maintain the Astronomicon? Are forcefields a theme of the game? In D&D, class features are different than skills in many ways- you have to hit an experience threshold to qualify, they are unique to a class so they are exclusive, where even the lowliest NPC has access to skills. The reason you don't hear anyone say "Oh, just replace class features with extra skill points" is that D&D players know that would be boring as feth.
In previous versions of the game, psychic powers weren't just about end results though. Missions sometimes required psychic actions, so they could be game hooks; psychic powers were chosen, so they helped define a character; they could be augmented in different ways as the character gained experience, so that even two identical powers might not operate the same way when used by two different Legendary Characters who chose to study different facets of the same power as they grew;
the inclusion of a psyker in an army has the narrative potential to affect the composition of the other army or the campaign- look at the psychic apocalypse rules from 3rd ed Witch Hunters or the Crusade rules for Grey Knight daemonic adversaries; look at the Agendas that deal with thwarting psychic powers in various ways.
There is a whole ecosystem of Lore-based, in universe interactions around psychic powers, and you can't represent that ecosystem of interactions properly when the mechanics used for a psychic power are the same as the mechanics for a gun.
Adding extra mechanics to make them "feel special" just kind of strikes me as overcomplicating the rules for basically no reason.
No, it's because in the Lore, they ARE special- that's why they have to feel that way. There aren't entire organizations designed specifically to hunt people who use guns or forcefields or hide in shadows. There ARE organizations that exist purely to hunt, exterminate, capture and control psykers. Why? Because psychic powers ARE special. Psykers ARE special. THAT'S why they need to feel that way.
Having an X% chance of your psychic "gun" not working isn't fluffy for most psykers in the game, doesn't lead to interesting choices, and doesn't make the psychic "gun" feel special. At least not to me.
No, perhaps not. But having an x% chance of your psychic gun working is only ONE of the interactions within the ecosystem of possibilities available when psykers are properly supported. In previous editions, you might take a psyker not because you liked their psychic gun, but because they could (in addition to using that psychic gun) talk to the dead, allowing them to retrieve intel from an enemy that they killed in close combat as part of a Crusade Agenda. And deciding to do that and collect XP rather than stand on the objective to get VP IS an interesting choice. And with those XP, you might want to choose between making your Psychic gun stronger, or getting an extra power which isn't a psychic gun, but maybe a movement boost. Or maybe you don't take an additional power, or make your gun stronger... Maybe you make it harder for other psychics to nullify your gun. Again, pretty interesting choice, right?
Now certainly, if the Librarian has one Leader power (not psychic) one personal power (not psychic) AND an additional power (psychic), then yes, that character IS actually getting something special, or at least something in addition to a character of equivalent points could be expected to have.
See. This is bizarre to me. A librarian shooting lightning and bending time doesn't feel psychic enough, but if he can shout orders or give a squad a scout move or whatever in addition to that, suddenly his psychic powers are acceptable.
Because, again, psykers in the lore are characters who can do weird things with warp energy IN ADDITION to being able to use guns (like every other person can) or forcefields (like any other person can) or hide in shadows (like any other person can).
But I think the biggest thing that prevents psychic powers from feeling special is the lack of choice.
I find it interesting that whenever the topic of powers not "feeling special" comes up, people almost always come back to this. I feel like the way psychic powers work is fine and what people actually miss is the ability to customize their character's power selections. Which. Totally get it. Fully agree. But can someone tell me why people always seem to conflate the psychic system with power/wargear customization? Those are two very different things. (Not trying to pick on you here, Jake. Just perplexed by how often this seems to be the case.)
Well, ask yourself how you add that customization (with which you agree) back into the game without a psychic system of some sort. Again, people managed to convince me that we didn't need a psychic phase if the rules were well written enough. But how do you do this? Lets say we want six possible psychic powers (GW always liked six, because a could be randomized using the ubiquitous die type if players wanted to roll for powers rather than choose). So let's say two of those powers are attacks, one is a leader datacard ability, two are persoanl buffs and one is a debuff.
Using current mechanics, how do you pick them? Where on the datasheet do you write the choices? Because two have to go with the other weapon profiles since that's how they're represented... but then on the back of the card, you'd have to write that you could only take one of those attacks, and only if you didn't take any of the four powers that aren't listed with the weapon profiles. The other four options all have to be listed in the unit rules section of the datacard, but you'd also have to indicate that they only one of them can be used, and only if neither of the weapon profile powers are used.
Or, would having a table of psychic rules SEPARATE from the datacard be an easier way to reinsert the customization (which you 100% agree with) back into the game?
Especially given that having the separate table of rules ALSO facilitates organizing thematically related powers into "disciplines" so that psykers could not only choose powers from a table, but choose which table to choose from. And that becomes important when we pull Crusade back into the mix, because choosing an extra power from a discipline that you already know is a different Battle Honour than choosing a power from a new Discipline... One which actually communicates elements of a psyker's personality: the guy who knows three powers from one discipline is a specialist, where another who knows a single power from each of three disciplines is a generalist. The former studies from the same region or group of people, while the later probably has to travel or have a larger network of teachers.
Good mechanics don't just resolve things on the battlefield- they express and create narrative. This is why they sometimes need to be more complex than the bare minimum required to resolve an action on the table in the moment.
Yes, a psychic weapon profile will be stronger than other weapon profiles, and it can sometimes be used in addition to other weapon profiles... But it still is just another weapon profile... Which is a thing that every unit has. An actual psychic attack power would be something that was not a weapon profile. It would be something in addition to a weapon profile, which was possessed only by other psykers.
I mean, this historically hasn't necessarily been the case. Look at the powers from 7th edition. When you're telekinetically hurtling rocks at people, it has a statline that makes you think someone is flinging rocks around.
I skipped 7th, so I don't know if it was one of the editions with a psychic phase or not, but either way, that power in 7th a) might have caused perils, b) could be dispelled by other psychics, c) could be used in addition to a conventional weapon d) could ONLY be performed by a psyker, e) could be a trigger for reactive strats or actions that are not triggered by conventional attacks, g) may have failed (and yes, like you, I don't think this option is all that interesting... But it does differentiate psychic stone throwing from gunslinging) and h) was chosen from a list of other possible powers which may have included buffs and debuffs in addition to attacks, leading to interesting and meaningful choices that include an opportunity cost.
Sure, sometimes you have Eldritch Storms spinning vehicles around or Jaws of the World Wolf doing weird initiative tests.
Unless it's 10th, because the rules in 10th aren't complex enough to allow either of those things to occur, which is the whole point of the discussion.
I'm not any less impressed by a librarian shooting melta beams around and protecting himself with a kineshield just because you can get similar rules from a meltagun and iron halo.
Well the fact that you don't see the fluff/lore difference between something achieved by a piece of technology and something achieved through sheer force of human will is your mental failing, not mine, and the fact that you will settle for expressing the two in the same way despite these profound differences demonstrates your laziness, not mine.
And there's no logical in-universe reason why the Librarian using those powers shouldn't ALSO be able to use the equipment in addition to the powers, but in the current system it tends to be either/or. You're a captain? Great. You get an Inferno pistol and a halo. You're a Librarian? Great. You get a meltaray and a kineshield. Woo hoo- now you're both functionally identical, despite the fact that you're different in the lore and represented by different models- nothing special about either one of you.
But at least Wyldhunt doesn't have to learn or remember any extra rules, which is great, because that's the only metric by which a game's mechanics should be judged- how few and simple they are. Who cares how reflective they are of the phenomenon they are attempting to simulate? Who cares whether or not the reflect themes of the fictional universe they represent?
And it wouldn't be assigned by default to all models of the same type; it would be selected from a list of other powers which were neither weapon profiles nor datacard abilities, but in addition to them. This would mean that if you had two Librarians of the same type in your army, they could serve different tactical roles because their powers would be chosen rather than assigned.
Right. Customization. Which we agree would be nice, but the fact that two librarians know how to do the same things doesn't make those things any less psychic in nature.
Perhaps not, but it does make the unit less interesting because it can only function in one assigned way, which is just as negative (if not more) than feeling less psychic.
What does make it feel less psychic is the lack of the other seven characteristics I mentioned above. Other than redundancy, what's the point of a chapter having multiple psykers when they all do the same thing anyway? You seem to like "easy to use" and "convenient" so much that you are willing to accept the "boring" part. I'd rather have to commit ten pages of text to memory and have an interesting army and game, than being able to play with minimal effort at the cost of my units all feeling identical and the game not feeling like it reflects the phenomena that it's mechanics are supposed to evoke. I am willing to exert effort in order to achieve fulfilling entertainment.
We don't need psychic tests and deny the witch roles and extra phases of the turn that make timing awkward because this movement power should really have just happened in the movement phase and this melee power could really just be handled in the fight phase and so forth.
As I said before, I can live without the dedicated phase if the rules are written well enough. But Deny the Witch? Look, SoS, SoB and Cullexus assassins exist: Deny the Witch is a part of their identity. Without Deny the Witch, why do we need them. If a psychic attack is just another gun, why is there an Ordo Hereticus?
And while I can live without the dedicated phase, it's existence was another way to differentiate effects which were psychically created and those which were not. A Harlequin runs faster than a Marine so one move 6" and one moves 8". Now if the marine has a power that gives them an extra 2" move, and that is executed during the movement phase, it can be reacted to by other models in the same way they react to movement, and kinda just feels like that marine is a better runner than other marines. They are functionally identical to the Harlequin, rather than feeling like a marine with a psychic power.
But if it happens in the psychic phase, then it can't be reacted to in the same way as movement, and specialized units who have particular reactions that are only triggered be psychic activity now have a better cue- both the psychic and the denier feel like they are doing something that other units can't do. It makes "Running Faster" into something that feels supernatural because it's represented on the table in a way that isn't the same as what basically amounts to an advance move, which every other unit in the game can already do.
Now before I wrap this up dude, I want to apologize for the places in this post where my passion for the subject got the best of me, and my tone shifted far enough that some of what I wrote might have sounded like a personal attack. If you and I were having this discussion face to face, you'd hear the tone of my voice and know that I wasn't trying to start a fight... I agree with 90% or more of what you post in these forums, and I think you're always pretty damned respectful when you post. Your opinions on the current state of psychic rules actually shock me precisely because our points of view on so many other elements of the game do line up well. A better, bigger man might have edited out the parts that crossed a line, but I've already put wAY too much time into this post to do that, so I hope you'll accept an apology after the fact. Cheers!
DEC 1 Death Guard
DEC 2 Dark Angels
DEC 3 Tyranids
DEC 4 Thousand Sons
DEC 5 Adeptus Mechanicus
DEC 6 Necrons
DEC 7 Deathwatch
DEC 8 Adeptus Custodes
DEC 8 Officio Assassinorum
DEC 9 Chaos Knights
DEC 9 Imperial Knights
DEC 10 Grey Knights
DEC 11 Space Marines
DEC 12 Chaos Space Marines (Bile)
DEC 13 Dork Eldar
DEC 13 Eldar
DEC 14 Orks
DEC 15 Imperial Guard
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
On the bile detachment, I think this detachment is really cool and fluffy. I don't think it will ultimately be better competitively than the normally taken ones, but that is kinda what I want out of a grotmas detachment. What I would do is take nothing but infantry (havocs and oblits for fire support), pick the 2" move, start everything on the board and rush the enemy, especially with that advance and charge for terminators or possessed.
I am a little sad we did not get a psychic detachment similar to the SM one, but this is cool and brings back an old detachment from the past.
For the TS, no I don't think adding psychic fixes that detachment in any way. It is just a horrible rule. If it were something like re-roll 1's to wound for all units, then re-roll 1's to hit if also in the zone of control, and if in zone of control +1 to wound for psychic attacks that would be worth using. I also don't think this would be all that powerful as it doesn't really help the best unit (rubrics who already re-roll wounds and use flamers) but would help make other units relevant. And other than Magnus or Rubrics, the TS don't really have that scary of fire power to over exploit this. Or they could have done something similar to the SM detachment, and pick a buff for "cults" that are active on psychic units. Overall for how nice all the the Grotmas detachments have been, most are not over powered and pretty fluffy focusing on a particular build, the TS one is just utter trash and reinforces my opinion that no one on the design team likes or play TS.
Respectfully, you are wrong. When one use a weapon, they pull a trigger, and if they aimed properly, someone dies. Somebody with a different gun still pulls the trigger, and if they aimed properly someone dies. When someone uses a psychic power, they take the substance of another dimension, the stuff of daemons and nightmares into themselves, and if they can control it, they can shape into one of several possible effects, one of which MIGHT be shooting lightning across the field. The first two examples are things that any human, from a guardsmen penal trooper to a chaptermaster can do, but the third is a thing that only one in a million can do, and those one in a million are hunted and exterminated when they can't be controlled, because if their power goes wrong, it can destroy worlds or summon horrors into existence.
Given the similarity of examples A & B, using similar mechanics to represent those actions makes sense. But the third example, being so profoundly different from the first two, should not be resolved using the same mechanics. It should FEEL different because it IS different. If you treat it the same way as a gun, it just feels like a gun. But it isn't. The lowliest Grot or Ogryn can use a gun. There is nothing special about them. Hell, they exist in our modern world that's how boring they are. Why would you want a potentially cataclysmic event, a supernatural force shaped by the will of a one-in-a-million creature to be treated and resolved in the same manner as something that you or I good do in the real world after taking a a trip to the local sports store with zero training?
A lot of your post boils down to the sentiment here that special powers have cool fluff, so therefore they need to have more complicated game mechanics to make them feel sufficiently dramatic. I'm going to try to address that here rather than quoting each place in your post that brings up a similar sentiment.
Basically, I think you're overly impressed by this one particular bit of fluff and letting that cloud your judgement on game mechanics. Archaeotech and martian tech is pretty cool-sounding if I spend two paragraphs talking about the pinnacle of human achievement and the heights of the golden age of technology and so forth. A tyranid bioweapon is pretty impressive if I spend two pages writing purple prose about how an organism large enough to encircle the galaxy has bent its will to perfecting weaponry designed to lay waste to whatever foe it faces, etc. etc. But a conversion beamer and a deathspitter both work perfectly well as guns. The former is even a great example of how you can give a gun a bit of extra flavor without needing a whole subsystem to represent how special it is.
At the end of the day, a librarian shooting fire from his fingertips is basically just a flamethrower 99% of the time. And we already have rules for flamethrowers.
I acknowledge that there can be merit in making an effect "stand out" using a subsystem, not because it improves the gameplay directly but because it can add to the player experience. In the same way that well-designed graphics in a video game can make that game more immersive. However, the way that past editions did this struck me as more unfluffy than fluffy much of the time. While some random unsanctioned human psyker might be at risk of perils'ing hard enough to kill himself and take the local hab block with him, that's just not a thing you generally see librarians and farseers and chaos sorcerers doing. If you're trying to recreate a battle from a BL novel, Ahriman suddenly exploding and killing his nearby allies would feel really out of character. Similarly, I struggle to think of novels where a librarian is suddenly unable to shoot lightning from his hands because another psyker is denying the witch. Denying the witch just isn't a thing psykers are regularly doing to eachother in the lore. Nor are librarians regularly failing to shoot lightning in general (i.e. failed psychic tests).
Failed psychic tests, deny the witch, and perils just didn't really represent the lore very well. I'd be open to a system that *does* represent the lore better, but for now I'd rather be rid of unfluffy mechanics that make it clunkier to resolve effects.
If that sounds elitist, sue me. If I wanted to play checkers, I'd just play checkers, not try to make 40k into checkers.
You don't sound elitist. You just kinda come off as a dick in this post. But I'll refrain from taking further jabs as I respond to the rest of your post.
In previous versions of the game, psychic powers weren't just about end results though. Missions sometimes required psychic actions, so they could be game hooks;
You can easily design missions for 10th that require psykers to perform actions. We just don't have that in matched play because it's not a good one-size-fits-all mechanic. See: the Ritual from 9th edition. This isn't a problem with how psychic powers work in 10th. It's a desire to add specific secondaries or missions to your games.
psychic powers were chosen, so they helped define a character;
We've already agreed that character customization was nice and that we'd both like to see it come back. But choosing your psyker's powers is a different topic from how those powers work.
they could be augmented in different ways as the character gained experience, so that even two identical powers might not operate the same way when used by two different Legendary Characters who chose to study different facets of the same power as they grew;
Not familiar with how this was handled before, but I know that weapon powers can be modified through weapon upgrades in modern Crusade.
the inclusion of a psyker in an army has the narrative potential to affect the composition of the other army or the campaign- look at the psychic apocalypse rules from 3rd ed Witch Hunters or the Crusade rules for Grey Knight daemonic adversaries; look at the Agendas that deal with thwarting psychic powers in various ways.
I can't comment on 3rd edition much as I never played it. Are you making the case that psychic powers today should work the way they did in 3rd edition Apoc? Because if so, that's a more specific conversation that I can't really engage in.
What agendas involved thwarting psychic powers? Was it just an agenda you succeed at for denying the witch? That sounds about as interesting as the agendas that gave you xp for casting powers. Not my cup of tea, personally.
There is a whole ecosystem of Lore-based, in universe interactions around psychic powers, and you can't represent that ecosystem of interactions properly when the mechanics used for a psychic power are the same as the mechanics for a gun.
Why? Because the inclusion of anti-psychic fields complicates your argument to the point where it no longer holds water?
Because the things that meaningfully interact with psychic effects like that are few and far between. We're mostly talking about:
* 1 type of assassin
* Sisters of Silence
* Depending on the edition, sisters of battle.
Now you can make a case for wanting those units to have more potent anti-psychic rules than they currently do, but we probably don't need a universal subsystem that impacts every army with a psyker just to support the gimmick of a 1.5 factions and an assassin. Just like we don't need a universal subsystem for admech doing computer stuff.
No, perhaps not. But having an x% chance of your psychic gun working *snip* Again, pretty interesting choice, right?
I think this is all addressed above. We agree that customization is good. There's nothing stopping 10th edition from having psyker-related actions, agendas, or objectives.
Well, ask yourself how you add that customization (with which you agree) back into the game without a psychic system of some sort.
Just make powers a wargear option. Preferably the same way it worked in 3rd-5th where you just pay points for whichever powers you take, but you could also just make it a free swap between one of several options at the start of the game if wargear points are off the table. So at the start of the game, my farseer can choose one of the following: Guide, Doom, Eldritch Storm, etc. You could complicate it from there with strats if you wanted, but that's getting more detailed than necessary for this discussion.
Where on the datasheet do you write the choices?...
Or, would having a table of psychic rules SEPARATE from the datacard be an easier way to reinsert the customization (which you 100% agree with) back into the game?
I'd probably just have a page with the psychic powers spelled out and listed. Just like they used to be. I don't think it's a ridiculous ask for people to bookmark one page of a physical codex, and anyone using an app has the details of the power one button tap away. I feel like you're trying to make this sound like a big hurdle, but it should be pretty easy. We've made it work reasonably well before, and we can be even better at it now that a lot of people are playing using apps, recently played using psychic power cards, etc.
Disciplines are neat but also potentially put designers into boxes. You can tell that most disciplines in 7th-9th had like, 3 or 4 really strong ideas for powers, and then usually had a couple space fillers mixed in. And some disciplines like Runes of Fate were covering everything from seeing the future to having mind duels to conjuring lightning. At which point, the discipline wasn't really a theme so much as just a place to store all the stuff farseers are supposed to be able to do. All of which is to say I could take or leave disciplines.
I skipped 7th, so I don't know if it was one of the editions with a psychic phase or not, but either way, that power in 7th a) might have caused perils, b) could be dispelled by other psychics, c) could be used in addition to a conventional weapon d) could ONLY be performed by a psyker, e) could be a trigger for reactive strats or actions that are not triggered by conventional attacks, g) may have failed (and yes, like you, I don't think this option is all that interesting... But it does differentiate psychic stone throwing from gunslinging) and h) was chosen from a list of other possible powers which may have included buffs and debuffs in addition to attacks, leading to interesting and meaningful choices that include an opportunity cost.
I think I've addressed this all above, but I'll hit each of these here because it seems like a good place to summarize some points.
A. and B.) I find those to be kind of unfluffy. Outside of wyrd boyz and maybe unsanctioned human psykers, psykers aren't generally exploding from perils, and random astropath Bob shutting down Ahriman or Eldrads' powers seems actively unfluffy.
C.) Still can be. My farseer shoots shuriken weapons while flinging her eldritch storm around in the same phase, and then she stabs stuff with a witchblade later that turn.
D.) Psychic powers can still only be used by psykers. I think you're going back to the magical flamers being different from normal flamers thing, but that hasn't been true from 3rd-7th. See: any power with a template or torrent rule. 8th and 9th were the anomalies here, insisting on making all powers do mortal wounds. Were you opposed to the Avenger power in 5th edition when it was just a gun with a psychic test?
E.) Still can be. See: any rule that triggers off of the Psychic keyword. I think you're trying to get at things like Culexus assassins turning off mobility buffs. In which case, see above about me being fine with writing rules to do that.
F.) Seems to have been lost in the warp.
G.) So we agree it was uninteresting. It was a feelsbad mechanic that was also unfluffy. So it actively made the game experience worse, but was different for the sake of being different.
H.) Again, we're talking about customization now; not how powers work. I'm all for being able to customize powers on a unit.
And while I can live without the dedicated phase, it's existence was another way to differentiate effects which were psychically created and those which were not. A Harlequin runs faster than a Marine so one move 6" and one moves 8". Now if the marine has a power that gives them an extra 2" move, and that is executed during the movement phase, it can be reacted to by other models in the same way they react to movement, and kinda just feels like that marine is a better runner than other marines.
A marine using magic to run faster than other marines is, in fact, just a marine that is a better runner than other marines. The end result is that he's covering more ground when he runs. We don't need to add a subsystem to reflect that.
They are functionally identical to the Harlequin, rather than feeling like a marine with a psychic power.
I feel like there might be one or two differences between a harlequin and a marine aside from their Movement stats.
But if it happens in the psychic phase, then it can't be reacted to in the same way as movement, and specialized units who have particular reactions that are only triggered be psychic activity now have a better cue- both the psychic and the denier feel like they are doing something that other units can't do. It makes "Running Faster" into something that feels supernatural because it's represented on the table in a way that isn't the same as what basically amounts to an advance move, which every other unit in the game can already do.
I know I said I wasn't going to call this out every time you do it, but I did want to highlight that this is an excellent example of much of your argument boiling down to, "Make it more complicated than necessary just so it feels special."
Now before I wrap this up dude, I want to apologize for the places in this post where my passion for the subject got the best of me, and my tone shifted far enough that some of what I wrote might have sounded like a personal attack.
I mean, it straight up was a personal attack. The Edit button exists, and you can review posts before submitting them. You chose to leave the personal insults in there. Even if you were getting heated in the moment, you opted to leave those more emotional bits in there for me to read.
I agree with 90% or more of what you post in these forums, and I think you're always pretty damned respectful when you post.
I genuinely appreciate that.
A better, bigger man might have edited out the parts that crossed a line, but I've already put wAY too much time into this post to do that, so I hope you'll accept an apology after the fact. Cheers!
I won't lose any sleep over it, but I do encourage you to think twice before posting comments like that in the future. That sort of thing can really ruin a person's day if you catch them at the wrong time, you know?
PenitentJake wrote: Inside this spoiler tag is my response to Wyldhunt's response to my. disatisfaction with 10th ed psychic rules; that disatisfaction was mentioned in this thread because the new marine librarian detachment fixes some of my biggest problems with 10th's psychic rules, but by doing so only for Marines, it actually makes 10th's psychic system (or lack there of) fell even worse, because now it's an inadequate system that only applies to second-class armies. I hid it in a spoiler because it is hell of a long response, and the argument is a tangent from the main discussion.
I hope some people still read it... But then sometimes I feel like people ignore my posts even when I don't hide them, so whatever.
PenitentJake wrote: So when a Librarian with the Leader keyword has two abilities, nothing is special about either of those abilities because they are psychic. If the character were not psychic, the only difference would be that GW would have to figure out different fluff for whatever rule would be there in its place.
See, that's the thing. Something being psychic in nature doesn't really matter 99% of the time. Nor should it.
Respectfully, you are wrong. When one use a weapon, they pull a trigger, and if they aimed properly, someone dies. Somebody with a different gun still pulls the trigger, and if they aimed properly someone dies. When someone uses a psychic power, they take the substance of another dimension, the stuff of daemons and nightmares into themselves, and if they can control it, they can shape into one of several possible effects, one of which MIGHT be shooting lightning across the field. The first two examples are things that any human, from a guardsmen penal trooper to a chaptermaster can do, but the third is a thing that only one in a million can do, and those one in a million are hunted and exterminated when they can't be controlled, because if their power goes wrong, it can destroy worlds or summon horrors into existence.
Given the similarity of examples A & B, using similar mechanics to represent those actions makes sense. But the third example, being so profoundly different from the first two, should not be resolved using the same mechanics. It should FEEL different because it IS different. If you treat it the same way as a gun, it just feels like a gun. But it isn't. The lowliest Grot or Ogryn can use a gun. There is nothing special about them. Hell, they exist in our modern world that's how boring they are. Why would you want a potentially cataclysmic event, a supernatural force shaped by the will of a one-in-a-million creature to be treated and resolved in the same manner as something that you or I good do in the real world after taking a a trip to the local sports store with zero training?
THAT is the thing doesn't make sense here.
I think part of our difference of opinion here is that you are coming at the psychic rules as if you're designing a game from scratch, and your goal is to make it as easy to play and efficient as possible to reduce mental load.
I am looking at the 40 years of game that came before 10th and trying to figure out how to make something that is a byproduct of one of the most unique, thematic and disturbing elements of the game feel as significant as it is in the fictional world of the game, and I believe that if a player has insufficient personal capacity to deal with that mental load, they should simply play another game, since catering to that lowest common denominator would make the game so simple that it is boring to people who DO have that personal cognitive capacity and are only interested in hobbies that provide opportunities for them to use it.
If that sounds elitist, sue me. If I wanted to play checkers, I'd just play checkers, not try to make 40k into checkers.
If someone has a forcefield, it doesn't generally matter whether said forcefield is coming from a gadget on their backpack or from some mind magic.
It does though. Because using the forcefield is something a child could do. Press the button, forcefield on. Press again, forcefield off. You do not need to be a librarian to use a forcefield. You don't even need to be a soldier. And if something goes wrong with the forcefield? What's the worst that can happen? Whereas if something goes wrong with a psychic power, it could lead to the death of a planet. Do we sacrifice thousands of people with forcefields every day to maintain the Astronomicon? Are forcefields a theme of the game? In D&D, class features are different than skills in many ways- you have to hit an experience threshold to qualify, they are unique to a class so they are exclusive, where even the lowliest NPC has access to skills. The reason you don't hear anyone say "Oh, just replace class features with extra skill points" is that D&D players know that would be boring as feth.
In previous versions of the game, psychic powers weren't just about end results though. Missions sometimes required psychic actions, so they could be game hooks; psychic powers were chosen, so they helped define a character; they could be augmented in different ways as the character gained experience, so that even two identical powers might not operate the same way when used by two different Legendary Characters who chose to study different facets of the same power as they grew;
the inclusion of a psyker in an army has the narrative potential to affect the composition of the other army or the campaign- look at the psychic apocalypse rules from 3rd ed Witch Hunters or the Crusade rules for Grey Knight daemonic adversaries; look at the Agendas that deal with thwarting psychic powers in various ways.
There is a whole ecosystem of Lore-based, in universe interactions around psychic powers, and you can't represent that ecosystem of interactions properly when the mechanics used for a psychic power are the same as the mechanics for a gun.
Adding extra mechanics to make them "feel special" just kind of strikes me as overcomplicating the rules for basically no reason.
No, it's because in the Lore, they ARE special- that's why they have to feel that way. There aren't entire organizations designed specifically to hunt people who use guns or forcefields or hide in shadows. There ARE organizations that exist purely to hunt, exterminate, capture and control psykers. Why? Because psychic powers ARE special. Psykers ARE special. THAT'S why they need to feel that way.
Having an X% chance of your psychic "gun" not working isn't fluffy for most psykers in the game, doesn't lead to interesting choices, and doesn't make the psychic "gun" feel special. At least not to me.
No, perhaps not. But having an x% chance of your psychic gun working is only ONE of the interactions within the ecosystem of possibilities available when psykers are properly supported. In previous editions, you might take a psyker not because you liked their psychic gun, but because they could (in addition to using that psychic gun) talk to the dead, allowing them to retrieve intel from an enemy that they killed in close combat as part of a Crusade Agenda. And deciding to do that and collect XP rather than stand on the objective to get VP IS an interesting choice. And with those XP, you might want to choose between making your Psychic gun stronger, or getting an extra power which isn't a psychic gun, but maybe a movement boost. Or maybe you don't take an additional power, or make your gun stronger... Maybe you make it harder for other psychics to nullify your gun. Again, pretty interesting choice, right?
Now certainly, if the Librarian has one Leader power (not psychic) one personal power (not psychic) AND an additional power (psychic), then yes, that character IS actually getting something special, or at least something in addition to a character of equivalent points could be expected to have.
See. This is bizarre to me. A librarian shooting lightning and bending time doesn't feel psychic enough, but if he can shout orders or give a squad a scout move or whatever in addition to that, suddenly his psychic powers are acceptable.
Because, again, psykers in the lore are characters who can do weird things with warp energy IN ADDITION to being able to use guns (like every other person can) or forcefields (like any other person can) or hide in shadows (like any other person can).
But I think the biggest thing that prevents psychic powers from feeling special is the lack of choice.
I find it interesting that whenever the topic of powers not "feeling special" comes up, people almost always come back to this. I feel like the way psychic powers work is fine and what people actually miss is the ability to customize their character's power selections. Which. Totally get it. Fully agree. But can someone tell me why people always seem to conflate the psychic system with power/wargear customization? Those are two very different things. (Not trying to pick on you here, Jake. Just perplexed by how often this seems to be the case.)
Well, ask yourself how you add that customization (with which you agree) back into the game without a psychic system of some sort. Again, people managed to convince me that we didn't need a psychic phase if the rules were well written enough. But how do you do this? Lets say we want six possible psychic powers (GW always liked six, because a could be randomized using the ubiquitous die type if players wanted to roll for powers rather than choose). So let's say two of those powers are attacks, one is a leader datacard ability, two are persoanl buffs and one is a debuff.
Using current mechanics, how do you pick them? Where on the datasheet do you write the choices? Because two have to go with the other weapon profiles since that's how they're represented... but then on the back of the card, you'd have to write that you could only take one of those attacks, and only if you didn't take any of the four powers that aren't listed with the weapon profiles. The other four options all have to be listed in the unit rules section of the datacard, but you'd also have to indicate that they only one of them can be used, and only if neither of the weapon profile powers are used.
Or, would having a table of psychic rules SEPARATE from the datacard be an easier way to reinsert the customization (which you 100% agree with) back into the game?
Especially given that having the separate table of rules ALSO facilitates organizing thematically related powers into "disciplines" so that psykers could not only choose powers from a table, but choose which table to choose from. And that becomes important when we pull Crusade back into the mix, because choosing an extra power from a discipline that you already know is a different Battle Honour than choosing a power from a new Discipline... One which actually communicates elements of a psyker's personality: the guy who knows three powers from one discipline is a specialist, where another who knows a single power from each of three disciplines is a generalist. The former studies from the same region or group of people, while the later probably has to travel or have a larger network of teachers.
Good mechanics don't just resolve things on the battlefield- they express and create narrative. This is why they sometimes need to be more complex than the bare minimum required to resolve an action on the table in the moment.
Yes, a psychic weapon profile will be stronger than other weapon profiles, and it can sometimes be used in addition to other weapon profiles... But it still is just another weapon profile... Which is a thing that every unit has. An actual psychic attack power would be something that was not a weapon profile. It would be something in addition to a weapon profile, which was possessed only by other psykers.
I mean, this historically hasn't necessarily been the case. Look at the powers from 7th edition. When you're telekinetically hurtling rocks at people, it has a statline that makes you think someone is flinging rocks around.
I skipped 7th, so I don't know if it was one of the editions with a psychic phase or not, but either way, that power in 7th a) might have caused perils, b) could be dispelled by other psychics, c) could be used in addition to a conventional weapon d) could ONLY be performed by a psyker, e) could be a trigger for reactive strats or actions that are not triggered by conventional attacks, g) may have failed (and yes, like you, I don't think this option is all that interesting... But it does differentiate psychic stone throwing from gunslinging) and h) was chosen from a list of other possible powers which may have included buffs and debuffs in addition to attacks, leading to interesting and meaningful choices that include an opportunity cost.
Sure, sometimes you have Eldritch Storms spinning vehicles around or Jaws of the World Wolf doing weird initiative tests.
Unless it's 10th, because the rules in 10th aren't complex enough to allow either of those things to occur, which is the whole point of the discussion.
I'm not any less impressed by a librarian shooting melta beams around and protecting himself with a kineshield just because you can get similar rules from a meltagun and iron halo.
Well the fact that you don't see the fluff/lore difference between something achieved by a piece of technology and something achieved through sheer force of human will is your mental failing, not mine, and the fact that you will settle for expressing the two in the same way despite these profound differences demonstrates your laziness, not mine.
And there's no logical in-universe reason why the Librarian using those powers shouldn't ALSO be able to use the equipment in addition to the powers, but in the current system it tends to be either/or. You're a captain? Great. You get an Inferno pistol and a halo. You're a Librarian? Great. You get a meltaray and a kineshield. Woo hoo- now you're both functionally identical, despite the fact that you're different in the lore and represented by different models- nothing special about either one of you.
But at least Wyldhunt doesn't have to learn or remember any extra rules, which is great, because that's the only metric by which a game's mechanics should be judged- how few and simple they are. Who cares how reflective they are of the phenomenon they are attempting to simulate? Who cares whether or not the reflect themes of the fictional universe they represent?
And it wouldn't be assigned by default to all models of the same type; it would be selected from a list of other powers which were neither weapon profiles nor datacard abilities, but in addition to them. This would mean that if you had two Librarians of the same type in your army, they could serve different tactical roles because their powers would be chosen rather than assigned.
Right. Customization. Which we agree would be nice, but the fact that two librarians know how to do the same things doesn't make those things any less psychic in nature.
Perhaps not, but it does make the unit less interesting because it can only function in one assigned way, which is just as negative (if not more) than feeling less psychic.
What does make it feel less psychic is the lack of the other seven characteristics I mentioned above. Other than redundancy, what's the point of a chapter having multiple psykers when they all do the same thing anyway? You seem to like "easy to use" and "convenient" so much that you are willing to accept the "boring" part. I'd rather have to commit ten pages of text to memory and have an interesting army and game, than being able to play with minimal effort at the cost of my units all feeling identical and the game not feeling like it reflects the phenomena that it's mechanics are supposed to evoke. I am willing to exert effort in order to achieve fulfilling entertainment.
We don't need psychic tests and deny the witch roles and extra phases of the turn that make timing awkward because this movement power should really have just happened in the movement phase and this melee power could really just be handled in the fight phase and so forth.
As I said before, I can live without the dedicated phase if the rules are written well enough. But Deny the Witch? Look, SoS, SoB and Cullexus assassins exist: Deny the Witch is a part of their identity. Without Deny the Witch, why do we need them. If a psychic attack is just another gun, why is there an Ordo Hereticus?
And while I can live without the dedicated phase, it's existence was another way to differentiate effects which were psychically created and those which were not. A Harlequin runs faster than a Marine so one move 6" and one moves 8". Now if the marine has a power that gives them an extra 2" move, and that is executed during the movement phase, it can be reacted to by other models in the same way they react to movement, and kinda just feels like that marine is a better runner than other marines. They are functionally identical to the Harlequin, rather than feeling like a marine with a psychic power.
But if it happens in the psychic phase, then it can't be reacted to in the same way as movement, and specialized units who have particular reactions that are only triggered be psychic activity now have a better cue- both the psychic and the denier feel like they are doing something that other units can't do. It makes "Running Faster" into something that feels supernatural because it's represented on the table in a way that isn't the same as what basically amounts to an advance move, which every other unit in the game can already do.
Now before I wrap this up dude, I want to apologize for the places in this post where my passion for the subject got the best of me, and my tone shifted far enough that some of what I wrote might have sounded like a personal attack. If you and I were having this discussion face to face, you'd hear the tone of my voice and know that I wasn't trying to start a fight... I agree with 90% or more of what you post in these forums, and I think you're always pretty damned respectful when you post. Your opinions on the current state of psychic rules actually shock me precisely because our points of view on so many other elements of the game do line up well. A better, bigger man might have edited out the parts that crossed a line, but I've already put wAY too much time into this post to do that, so I hope you'll accept an apology after the fact. Cheers!
So much of this is just wilful misrepresentation or a failure of imagination. It's pretty disingenuous to portray the many weird and wild non-psychic parts of 40k as mundane while going out of your way to emphasise those exact same qualities in psykers. Yes, psykers are certainly a different manner of beast to other things in 40k, but then so are Harelquins, or the extra-galactic horror that is the Tyranid Hive Mind, or the barely understood technologies the Ad Mech utilise. Fundamentally, if an effect causes damage at range there's no reason it can't just be given a weapon profile, whether it's a psychic power, a weapon that fires dark light or a horrifying symbiote weapon launching living ammunition across the battlefield. The source isn't that important at the scale 40k operates, or at least it doesn't have to be. One important point here regarding psyker characters in particular, is that most characters in 40k have fairly lacklustre shooting attacks. You might get a plasma pistol if you're lucky, but that's usually about it. In that context, the fact many psykers get a pretty decent shooting attack on top of those regular weapons most other characters get does make them stand out as a breed apart. Additionally, many of these psychic weapons get various special rules like Devastating Wounds or Sustained Hits to further differentiate them from more run-of-the-mill ranged weapons. That's a direct representation of the power of psykers in the context of a 40k game. I don't see why it matters if it's done as a shooting attack in the shooting phase or as a functionally identical attack in a different phase.
Then there's the fact you call the passive psychic effects mundane. Suddenly, these effects are not granted the flamboyant prose and descriptions you reserve for previous editions' psychic powers, presumably because that would kind of defeat your point, despite it being no less true in 10th than it was in previous editions. To just take a single faction, we have Space Marine Librarians who literally manipulate time itself to enhance their unit's combat abilities, or use invisibility to shroud them from sight - an effect that was also present in previous editions that you seem so fond of. Apparently if there's not a whole separate system of pointless dice rolling for it, that's not interesting enough though. If you want specific psychic actions as part of mission design you can do that. The Psyker keyword exists for this very purpose. Nothing's stopping you.
Which brings me on to my main problem with previous psychic systems in 40k. Mechanically, they were pretty much universally terrible. We've had LD tests, where 90% of psykers were Ld10. The power level system of success/failure rolls, that basically meant armies that generated more dice were just guaranteed to get of the power they wanted and you could never deny anything, or the mortal wound spam of 8th. None of these were actually interactive, despite the veneer GW tried to apply to them.
A lot of your post boils down to the sentiment here that special powers have cool fluff, so therefore they need to have more complicated game mechanics to make them feel sufficiently dramatic.
Sort of? I suppose you could reduce it to that?
It's more that I think mechanics should, in some way, represent the phenomenon they are meant to express. So for example, you look at a psychic power that confers a ranged attack, has more in common with a mundane weapon than it does with a different psychic power which confers an invulnerable save, or provides an aura. Despite the difference in effect, I believe that these three powers have more in common with each other than each of them does with other similar non-psychic effect. Because for me, what defines a power as psychic is it's "psychicness" not the specific effect that psychicness produces.
That may sound overly philosophical or whatever, but the warp is a theme that permeates the game, and psychic abilities are a part of that theme. I want psychic powers to feel different from weapon profiles because the Imperium could not exist without psychic navigation and communication. Sure, a ranged attack is a ranged attack effect wise, but one of those ranged attacks is empowered by the some phenomenon that allows humans to travel faster than light, or is literally the stuff of daemons, and its psychic nature means that it has more in common with other psychic phenomenon than it does with other ranged attacks, even if a particualr psychic effect IS a ranged attack.
Basically, I think you're overly impressed by this one particular bit of fluff and letting that cloud your judgement on game mechanics.
Oh, I'm down right obsessed with psychic phenomenon as a foundational theme of 40k; I think you're not obsessed enough with it. Warp travel can't happen without it. It had a huge impact on how and why the Heresy played out, entire factions exist because of it and it's thematically foundational to the game in a way that archeotech, or martian tech, or tryranid bio-tech aren't.
At the end of the day, a librarian shooting fire from his fingertips is basically just a flamethrower 99% of the time.
Is explained in more words above: No, at any time of day, 100% of the time, psychically shooting fire from your fingertips has more in common with putting up a psychic forcefield, or psychically conferring a stealth aura the does with shooting a flamethrower, because the latter is not a psychic effect, while the other three are. The effect is but one element of a psychic power- certainly the element that has the greatest impact upon the game, which is why many people do believe it makes sense to treat a ranged psychic attack like a mundane ranged attack, a psychic invulnerable save like one generated by tech and any other power like a datacard ability instead of finding a way to treat all of those things like psychic powers. And I'm not in any way suggesting it has to be complicated, nor am I suggesting that it should be done as it has been in any previous version. It just has to feel like all of those widely varied psychic powers are actually psychic powers rather than feeling like two are weapon profiles, one is a save and the rest are datacard abilities. One of your suggestions, which will get to below, gets us 80% of the way there.
I acknowledge that there can be merit in making an effect "stand out" using a subsystem, not because it improves the gameplay directly but because it can add to the player experience. In the same way that well-designed graphics in a video game can make that game more immersive.
Well there it is right there: that's really all I'm trying to say, and I personally don't believe the current system isn't great because I don't think it does that. So if you can acknowledge that, heck that's great.
However, the way that past editions did this struck me as more unfluffy than fluffy much of the time. While some random unsanctioned human psyker might be at risk of perils'ing hard enough to kill himself and take the local hab block with him, that's just not a thing you generally see librarians and farseers and chaos sorcerers doing.
Past editions certainly weren't perfect either and never claimed otherwise. And perils of the warp as per the mechanics of 9th ed (double sixes) isn't something that generally happens. The mechanics ensure that it's the type of thing that happens only 2.78% of the time. But you see, by having a game where the Perils effect exists creates the design space for a psychic debuff that makes enemies more likely to be affected by perils, or a way for the Psyker to risk more in the casting for a greater effect- perils on double anything rather than just 6's.
If you're trying to recreate a battle from a BL novel,
I'm not. And in fact, I think the idea that this is what rules should do is a bit of a problem, because I think most Black Library writers get it wrong; I think their stories should be more in line with the game, not that the game should be like the stories. Black Library is not 40k; it's the novelization of 40k. It's BASED on a true story... But it is NOT the true story. I don't even consider BL to be fluff.
Ahriman suddenly exploding and killing his nearby allies would feel really out of character.
Well Ahriman isn't just a run of the mill psyker, but don't you think that it makes more sense to give guys like him and Eldrad and Mephiston or whoever immunity, rather than ditching the whole Perils and Deny system with the un-intended consequence that Joe-bob the Rogue psyker who discovered his power 3 days ago can also never suffer Perils or be Denied?
Similarly, I struggle to think of novels where a librarian is suddenly unable to shoot lightning from his hands because another psyker is denying the witch.
Yeah, but see I think that's a flaw in the novel. I think Black Library authors should play more often than they do to remind themselves that these things DO happen in game, and should at least occasionally happen in books. We'll get into why right after this quote:
Denying the witch just isn't a thing psykers are regularly doing to each other in the lore. Nor are librarians regularly failing to shoot lightning in general (i.e. failed psychic tests).
Do you think that if Joe-Bob the Rogue psyker how discovered his powers three days ago casts lightning on Ahriman that it's unfluffy for Ahriman to deny that? Because if you do, in order to make it happen, you need Deny the Witch or something like it. Again, the system exists to provide the design space for effects to occur when they should and to not occur when the shouldn't. A well designed system would make named Psykers, Crusade Psykers of Legendary rank, Chief Librarians and equivalents never suffer Perils and would not allow their powers to be denied by psykers of lesser rank; regular Librarians or Warlocks and Crusaders of Battle Hardened Rank should occasionally risk Perils... Say about 2.78% of the time. Joe-Bob the Rogue Pysker, mortal cultists and green or Blooded Crusaders should suffer perils more often and should expect Librarian level psykers to have a shot at Denying and named Psykers to be immune to them.
That's far more fluffy than "Nobody Perils and Nobody gets Denied" which is what we have.
Failed psychic tests, deny the witch, and perils just didn't really represent the lore very well. I'd be open to a system that *does* represent the lore better, but for now I'd rather be rid of unfluffy mechanics that make it clunkier to resolve effects.
So yes, agreed on failed psychic tests- get rid of them. And no, implementations of Perils and Deny may have felt unfluffy, the lore concept of both Perils and Deny are fundamental principles of psychic ability- especially Perils. They are important enough that a flawed system is better than now system. If perils isn't possible, why does the Hereticus exist?
You don't sound elitist. You just kinda come off as a dick in this post. But I'll refrain from taking further jabs as I respond to the rest of your post.
You can easily design missions for 10th that require psykers to perform actions. We just don't have that in matched play because it's not a good one-size-fits-all mechanic. See: the Ritual from 9th edition. This isn't a problem with how psychic powers work in 10th. It's a desire to add specific secondaries or missions to your games.
True, but again the more robust the psychic system is, the more design space we have to make those missions interesting. Like maybe in a certain zone of the board (ie. proximity to one of the objectives) Perils are more likely to occur for non Chaos psykers to represent the fact that the objective is a powerful chaos relic. Or maybe if you pick up the objective, you can more effectively Deny the Witch. Those mission interactions are easy in a game system where the mechanics for Perils and Deny exist, but in a system where the don't exist, the mission has to contain all the rules.
But choosing your psyker's powers is a different topic from how those powers work.
Mostly. But as soon as you offer a suite of choices to each faction. you might need more design space than "Well, unless it's a weapon profile, a save or a datacard ability, we can't do it."
Not familiar with how this was handled before, but I know that weapon powers can be modified through weapon upgrades in modern Crusade.
Weapon upgrades modify a specific weapon's stats. Psychic Mastery, due to the diversity of psychic power effects can't really do that, so instead it manipulates the system that governs the use of powers- you know an extra power, you can use an extra power per turn, that sorta thing. This made it feel very different from weapons upgrades, so it was really cool when a Psyker might take some weapon upgrades and some Psychic mastery upgrades.
I can't comment on 3rd edition much as I never played it. Are you making the case that psychic powers today should work the way they did in 3rd edition Apoc? Because if so, that's a more specific conversation that I can't really engage in.
Psychic Apocalypse was a rule that allowed an army fighting Witch Hunters to include a free Psyker so that the witch hunters had a witch to hunt. There were powers it could be given, and statlines, and FW even made a model based on the artwork for the unit. There was also a mission, and it was particularly suitable for a game against someone using the Psychic Apocalypse unit, but they could be used in regular missions as well.
What agendas involved thwarting psychic powers? Was it just an agenda you succeed at for denying the witch? That sounds about as interesting as the agendas that gave you xp for casting powers. Not my cup of tea, personally.
Sadly, some of them were that simple. But again, having a system opens design space. Perform this action on an objective that you control. Thereafter, units within range of this objective receive +1 to Deny rolls is a cool example of a fluffy Agenda that could only exist in a system that includes Deny rules. It's been a while since I looked at my 9th ed books, but next time I do, I'll keep my eyes open.
There is a whole ecosystem of Lore-based, in universe interactions around psychic powers, and you can't represent that ecosystem of interactions properly when the mechanics used for a psychic power are the same as the mechanics for a gun.
Why? Because the inclusion of anti-psychic fields complicates your argument to the point where it no longer holds water?
Because the things that meaningfully interact with psychic effects like that are few and far between. We're mostly talking about:
* 1 type of assassin
* Sisters of Silence
* Depending on the edition, sisters of battle.
Part of the problem here is that when you said "anti-psychic field" you were taking only about Blanks, and I lumped Deny in with it, since it is an anti-psychic ability even if it's not a field. The rules for Blanks in previous editions integrated with the psychic rules. The rules for Blanks in 10th are not as good because there are no dedicated core psychic rules for them to integrate with.
And if we DO include Deny? That opens up fourth category of folks affected: all psykers. That takes the number of factions with the potential to interact with these rules to all but 3 I think? Drukhari (though not true if the Drukhari army in question includes Voidscarred Corairs, or if those Drukhari are part of a Ynarri army), Tau and Necrons. Custodes and Admech only interact with Deny if they bring some IA.
Now you can make a case for wanting those units to have more potent anti-psychic rules than they currently do, but we probably don't need a universal subsystem that impacts every army with a psyker just to support the gimmick of a 1.5 factions and an assassin. Just like we don't need a universal subsystem for admech doing computer stuff.
Again, the rules for blanks didn't have a system of their own; they were interactions with the rules that governed the use of psychic powers. Blanks, much like Psychic Missions, Psychic battle honours, psychic Theatre of War rules ALL require a psychic system to interact with in order to provide universal ways to modify abilities that have radically different battlefield effects.
The stronger those core psychic rules, the more interesting the rules for Blanks, Missions, and Battle honours can be.
I think this is all addressed above. We agree that customization is good. There's nothing stopping 10th edition from having psyker-related actions, agendas, or objectives.
There's nothing stopping them from exiting, but the lack of a dedicated system governing psychic abilities does prevent such rules from being as interesting as they could be, because every time one of those rules wants to interact with a psychic power, it has to either work with a weapon profile, a save or a datacard ability rather than interacting with a psychic power. Agendas, actions, missions and objectives are better with a psychic system that provides design space for them.
Just make powers a wargear option. Preferably the same way it worked in 3rd-5th where you just pay points for whichever powers you take, but you could also just make it a free swap between one of several options at the start of the game if wargear points are off the table. So at the start of the game, my farseer can choose one of the following: Guide, Doom, Eldritch Storm, etc.
Remember I said you were going to propose an idea that solves 80% of my issues? This is it.
Because guess what? If you do this, a psychic power is no longer an assigned weapon profile, invulnerable save or datacard ability. It's a psychic power chosen from among other psychic powers, which provides an opportunity cost. Now personally, I still want a way for Perils to happen and a way for Deny to happen- acknowledging again that the system should be designed so that strong psykers are less likely to experience this than weak once to maintain lore sensibilities... but even without these two add-on personal preferences, the system that you propose here is LIGHT YEARS ahead of what we have now. Which again is why I am surprised that you appear to advocate for the status quo, rather than advocate for your own superior idea.
You could complicate it from there with strats if you wanted, but that's getting more detailed than necessary for this discussion.
Fair. I've already provided examples above to illustrate that having a dedicated system creates design space.
And you know what? I think that's as far as I need to go. I hope the tone here sounded more like a genuine nerd-to-nerd discussion about different approaches to psychic powers rather than a personal attack. It has become clear that you're not as big a fan of the status quo as I perceived you to be- it's acceptable to you, but you aren't proclaiming it to be the best possible solution either. And you know, as much as I hate it, and will continue complaining about it, I'm also not going to let it stop me from playing some games, so on some level I guess it's acceptable to me too.
Is it fair to say that your position is that the psychic rules of 10th could be improved, while mine is that they should be improved?
A lot of your post boils down to the sentiment here that special powers have cool fluff, so therefore they need to have more complicated game mechanics to make them feel sufficiently dramatic.
Sort of? I suppose you could reduce it to that?
It's more that I think mechanics should, in some way, represent the phenomenon they are meant to express. So for example, you look at a psychic power that confers a ranged attack, has more in common with a mundane weapon than it does with a different psychic power which confers an invulnerable save, or provides an aura. Despite the difference in effect, I believe that these three powers have more in common with each other than each of them does with other similar non-psychic effect. Because for me, what defines a power as psychic is it's "psychicness" not the specific effect that psychicness produces.
That may sound overly philosophical or whatever, but the warp is a theme that permeates the game, and psychic abilities are a part of that theme. I want psychic powers to feel different from weapon profiles because the Imperium could not exist without psychic navigation and communication. Sure, a ranged attack is a ranged attack effect wise, but one of those ranged attacks is empowered by the some phenomenon that allows humans to travel faster than light, or is literally the stuff of daemons, and its psychic nature means that it has more in common with other psychic phenomenon than it does with other ranged attacks, even if a particualr psychic effect IS a ranged attack.
Basically, I think you're overly impressed by this one particular bit of fluff and letting that cloud your judgement on game mechanics.
Oh, I'm down right obsessed with psychic phenomenon as a foundational theme of 40k; I think you're not obsessed enough with it. Warp travel can't happen without it. It had a huge impact on how and why the Heresy played out, entire factions exist because of it and it's thematically foundational to the game in a way that archeotech, or martian tech, or tryranid bio-tech aren't.
At the end of the day, a librarian shooting fire from his fingertips is basically just a flamethrower 99% of the time.
Is explained in more words above: No, at any time of day, 100% of the time, psychically shooting fire from your fingertips has more in common with putting up a psychic forcefield, or psychically conferring a stealth aura the does with shooting a flamethrower, because the latter is not a psychic effect, while the other three are. The effect is but one element of a psychic power- certainly the element that has the greatest impact upon the game, which is why many people do believe it makes sense to treat a ranged psychic attack like a mundane ranged attack, a psychic invulnerable save like one generated by tech and any other power like a datacard ability instead of finding a way to treat all of those things like psychic powers. And I'm not in any way suggesting it has to be complicated, nor am I suggesting that it should be done as it has been in any previous version. It just has to feel like all of those widely varied psychic powers are actually psychic powers rather than feeling like two are weapon profiles, one is a save and the rest are datacard abilities. One of your suggestions, which will get to below, gets us 80% of the way there.
I acknowledge that there can be merit in making an effect "stand out" using a subsystem, not because it improves the gameplay directly but because it can add to the player experience. In the same way that well-designed graphics in a video game can make that game more immersive.
Well there it is right there: that's really all I'm trying to say, and I personally don't believe the current system isn't great because I don't think it does that. So if you can acknowledge that, heck that's great.
However, the way that past editions did this struck me as more unfluffy than fluffy much of the time. While some random unsanctioned human psyker might be at risk of perils'ing hard enough to kill himself and take the local hab block with him, that's just not a thing you generally see librarians and farseers and chaos sorcerers doing.
Past editions certainly weren't perfect either and never claimed otherwise. And perils of the warp as per the mechanics of 9th ed (double sixes) isn't something that generally happens. The mechanics ensure that it's the type of thing that happens only 2.78% of the time. But you see, by having a game where the Perils effect exists creates the design space for a psychic debuff that makes enemies more likely to be affected by perils, or a way for the Psyker to risk more in the casting for a greater effect- perils on double anything rather than just 6's.
If you're trying to recreate a battle from a BL novel,
I'm not. And in fact, I think the idea that this is what rules should do is a bit of a problem, because I think most Black Library writers get it wrong; I think their stories should be more in line with the game, not that the game should be like the stories. Black Library is not 40k; it's the novelization of 40k. It's BASED on a true story... But it is NOT the true story. I don't even consider BL to be fluff.
Ahriman suddenly exploding and killing his nearby allies would feel really out of character.
Well Ahriman isn't just a run of the mill psyker, but don't you think that it makes more sense to give guys like him and Eldrad and Mephiston or whoever immunity, rather than ditching the whole Perils and Deny system with the un-intended consequence that Joe-bob the Rogue psyker who discovered his power 3 days ago can also never suffer Perils or be Denied?
Similarly, I struggle to think of novels where a librarian is suddenly unable to shoot lightning from his hands because another psyker is denying the witch.
Yeah, but see I think that's a flaw in the novel. I think Black Library authors should play more often than they do to remind themselves that these things DO happen in game, and should at least occasionally happen in books. We'll get into why right after this quote:
Denying the witch just isn't a thing psykers are regularly doing to each other in the lore. Nor are librarians regularly failing to shoot lightning in general (i.e. failed psychic tests).
Do you think that if Joe-Bob the Rogue psyker how discovered his powers three days ago casts lightning on Ahriman that it's unfluffy for Ahriman to deny that? Because if you do, in order to make it happen, you need Deny the Witch or something like it. Again, the system exists to provide the design space for effects to occur when they should and to not occur when the shouldn't. A well designed system would make named Psykers, Crusade Psykers of Legendary rank, Chief Librarians and equivalents never suffer Perils and would not allow their powers to be denied by psykers of lesser rank; regular Librarians or Warlocks and Crusaders of Battle Hardened Rank should occasionally risk Perils... Say about 2.78% of the time. Joe-Bob the Rogue Pysker, mortal cultists and green or Blooded Crusaders should suffer perils more often and should expect Librarian level psykers to have a shot at Denying and named Psykers to be immune to them.
That's far more fluffy than "Nobody Perils and Nobody gets Denied" which is what we have.
Failed psychic tests, deny the witch, and perils just didn't really represent the lore very well. I'd be open to a system that *does* represent the lore better, but for now I'd rather be rid of unfluffy mechanics that make it clunkier to resolve effects.
So yes, agreed on failed psychic tests- get rid of them. And no, implementations of Perils and Deny may have felt unfluffy, the lore concept of both Perils and Deny are fundamental principles of psychic ability- especially Perils. They are important enough that a flawed system is better than now system. If perils isn't possible, why does the Hereticus exist?
You don't sound elitist. You just kinda come off as a dick in this post. But I'll refrain from taking further jabs as I respond to the rest of your post.
You can easily design missions for 10th that require psykers to perform actions. We just don't have that in matched play because it's not a good one-size-fits-all mechanic. See: the Ritual from 9th edition. This isn't a problem with how psychic powers work in 10th. It's a desire to add specific secondaries or missions to your games.
True, but again the more robust the psychic system is, the more design space we have to make those missions interesting. Like maybe in a certain zone of the board (ie. proximity to one of the objectives) Perils are more likely to occur for non Chaos psykers to represent the fact that the objective is a powerful chaos relic. Or maybe if you pick up the objective, you can more effectively Deny the Witch. Those mission interactions are easy in a game system where the mechanics for Perils and Deny exist, but in a system where the don't exist, the mission has to contain all the rules.
But choosing your psyker's powers is a different topic from how those powers work.
Mostly. But as soon as you offer a suite of choices to each faction. you might need more design space than "Well, unless it's a weapon profile, a save or a datacard ability, we can't do it."
Not familiar with how this was handled before, but I know that weapon powers can be modified through weapon upgrades in modern Crusade.
Weapon upgrades modify a specific weapon's stats. Psychic Mastery, due to the diversity of psychic power effects can't really do that, so instead it manipulates the system that governs the use of powers- you know an extra power, you can use an extra power per turn, that sorta thing. This made it feel very different from weapons upgrades, so it was really cool when a Psyker might take some weapon upgrades and some Psychic mastery upgrades.
I can't comment on 3rd edition much as I never played it. Are you making the case that psychic powers today should work the way they did in 3rd edition Apoc? Because if so, that's a more specific conversation that I can't really engage in.
Psychic Apocalypse was a rule that allowed an army fighting Witch Hunters to include a free Psyker so that the witch hunters had a witch to hunt. There were powers it could be given, and statlines, and FW even made a model based on the artwork for the unit. There was also a mission, and it was particularly suitable for a game against someone using the Psychic Apocalypse unit, but they could be used in regular missions as well.
What agendas involved thwarting psychic powers? Was it just an agenda you succeed at for denying the witch? That sounds about as interesting as the agendas that gave you xp for casting powers. Not my cup of tea, personally.
Sadly, some of them were that simple. But again, having a system opens design space. Perform this action on an objective that you control. Thereafter, units within range of this objective receive +1 to Deny rolls is a cool example of a fluffy Agenda that could only exist in a system that includes Deny rules. It's been a while since I looked at my 9th ed books, but next time I do, I'll keep my eyes open.
Because the things that meaningfully interact with psychic effects like that are few and far between. We're mostly talking about:
* 1 type of assassin
* Sisters of Silence
* Depending on the edition, sisters of battle.
Part of the problem here is that when you said "anti-psychic field" you were taking only about Blanks, and I lumped Deny in with it, since it is an anti-psychic ability even if it's not a field. The rules for Blanks in previous editions integrated with the psychic rules. The rules for Blanks in 10th are not as good because there are no dedicated core psychic rules for them to integrate with.
And if we DO include Deny? That opens up fourth category of folks affected: all psykers. That takes the number of factions with the potential to interact with these rules to all but 3 I think? Drukhari (though not true if the Drukhari army in question includes Voidscarred Corairs, or if those Drukhari are part of a Ynarri army), Tau and Necrons. Custodes and Admech only interact with Deny if they bring some IA.
Now you can make a case for wanting those units to have more potent anti-psychic rules than they currently do, but we probably don't need a universal subsystem that impacts every army with a psyker just to support the gimmick of a 1.5 factions and an assassin. Just like we don't need a universal subsystem for admech doing computer stuff.
Again, the rules for blanks didn't have a system of their own; they were interactions with the rules that governed the use of psychic powers. Blanks, much like Psychic Missions, Psychic battle honours, psychic Theatre of War rules ALL require a psychic system to interact with in order to provide universal ways to modify abilities that have radically different battlefield effects.
The stronger those core psychic rules, the more interesting the rules for Blanks, Missions, and Battle honours can be.
I think this is all addressed above. We agree that customization is good. There's nothing stopping 10th edition from having psyker-related actions, agendas, or objectives.
There's nothing stopping them from exiting, but the lack of a dedicated system governing psychic abilities does prevent such rules from being as interesting as they could be, because every time one of those rules wants to interact with a psychic power, it has to either work with a weapon profile, a save or a datacard ability rather than interacting with a psychic power. Agendas, actions, missions and objectives are better with a psychic system that provides design space for them.
Just make powers a wargear option. Preferably the same way it worked in 3rd-5th where you just pay points for whichever powers you take, but you could also just make it a free swap between one of several options at the start of the game if wargear points are off the table. So at the start of the game, my farseer can choose one of the following: Guide, Doom, Eldritch Storm, etc.
Remember I said you were going to propose an idea that solves 80% of my issues? This is it.
Because guess what? If you do this, a psychic power is no longer an assigned weapon profile, invulnerable save or datacard ability. It's a psychic power chosen from among other psychic powers, which provides an opportunity cost. Now personally, I still want a way for Perils to happen and a way for Deny to happen- acknowledging again that the system should be designed so that strong psykers are less likely to experience this than weak once to maintain lore sensibilities... but even without these two add-on personal preferences, the system that you propose here is LIGHT YEARS ahead of what we have now. Which again is why I am surprised that you appear to advocate for the status quo, rather than advocate for your own superior idea.
You could complicate it from there with strats if you wanted, but that's getting more detailed than necessary for this discussion.
Fair. I've already provided examples above to illustrate that having a dedicated system creates design space.
And you know what? I think that's as far as I need to go. I hope the tone here sounded more like a genuine nerd-to-nerd discussion about different approaches to psychic powers rather than a personal attack. It has become clear that you're not as big a fan of the status quo as I perceived you to be- it's acceptable to you, but you aren't proclaiming it to be the best possible solution either. And you know, as much as I hate it, and will continue complaining about it, I'm also not going to let it stop me from playing some games, so on some level I guess it's acceptable to me too.
Is it fair to say that your position is that the psychic rules of 10th could be improved, while mine is that they should be improved?
It's more that I think mechanics should, in some way, represent the phenomenon they are meant to express. So for example, you look at a psychic power that confers a ranged attack, has more in common with a mundane weapon than it does with a different psychic power which confers an invulnerable save, or provides an aura. Despite the difference in effect, I believe that these three powers have more in common with each other than each of them does with other similar non-psychic effect. Because for me, what defines a power as psychic is it's "psychicness" not the specific effect that psychicness produces.
And to me, an ability being psychic in nature is cool flavor text that should ideally interact with the small number of anti-psychic effects on the tabletop, but I'm more interested in the psychic effect feeling like whatever that effect is. So 8th/9th edition witchfire powers were often frustratingly restrictive in how they worked because the designers insisted on having them do mortal wounds. But like, if I'm fielding a Salamanders librarian and I just want him to shoot an avenger/fire blast at the enemy, that should probably just behave like a fire blast i.e. flamer.
I've been playing since 5th edition. Prior to 8th, psychic powers essentially being guns was pretty normal. And the most frustrating part about that arrangement was that sometimes the super powerful psyker randomly failed to shoot lightning for seemingly no reason. (Failed psychic tests.)
That may sound overly philosophical or whatever, but the warp is a theme that permeates the game, and psychic abilities are a part of that theme. I want psychic powers to feel different from weapon profiles because the Imperium could not exist without psychic navigation and communication. Sure, a ranged attack is a ranged attack effect wise, but one of those ranged attacks is empowered by the some phenomenon that allows humans to travel faster than light, or is literally the stuff of daemons, and its psychic nature means that it has more in common with other psychic phenomenon than it does with other ranged attacks, even if a particualr psychic effect IS a ranged attack.
Think about how crazy the science behind necron guns or even admech guns is. You could argue that archaeotech and the strangeness of xenos are both equally big parts of the setting, but I don't want to see Science Tests and Deny the Scientist rolls introduced to make them feel special.
Oh, I'm down right obsessed with psychic phenomenon as a foundational theme of 40k; I think you're not obsessed enough with it. Warp travel can't happen without it. It had a huge impact on how and why the Heresy played out, entire factions exist because of it and it's thematically foundational to the game in a way that archeotech, or martian tech, or tryranid bio-tech aren't.
I simply disagree. Warp travel also can't happen without admech tech. The imperium wouldn't have tanks or bolters without the admech. And I'd say that the anti-progress anachronistic tech of the setting is just as much a part of its themes and aesthetics as warp tech. but again, we don't generally need Science tests for chainswords and bolters to be satisfying. Respectfully, it really feels like you're letting the exotic, shiny nature of psychic effects steer you down a weird road.
If you're trying to recreate a battle from a BL novel,
I'm not. And in fact, I think the idea that this is what rules should do is a bit of a problem, because I think most Black Library writers get it wrong; I think their stories should be more in line with the game, not that the game should be like the stories. Black Library is not 40k; it's the novelization of 40k. It's BASED on a true story... But it is NOT the true story. I don't even consider BL to be fluff.
That's a pretty wild take. To clarify, you're saying that the "real lore" of 40k is that a plasma gun will kill its wielder 1 in 6 times it's overcharged and that marines are regularly losing half a company in every battle because that's what happens on the tabletop? Not trying to put words in your mouth here, but I just can't get behind that at all. Every discussion of lore vs rules I've seen ends up with everyone agreeing that lore != rules, but I've never seen someone argue that lore != lore.
Well Ahriman isn't just a run of the mill psyker, but don't you think that it makes more sense to give guys like him and Eldrad and Mephiston or whoever immunity, rather than ditching the whole Perils and Deny system with the un-intended consequence that Joe-bob the Rogue psyker who discovered his power 3 days ago can also never suffer Perils or be Denied?
I think that the vast majority of psykers that can be found on the tabletop are competent at wielding their warpcraft and unlikely to explode or have their powers shut down the way perils and deny the witch have traditionally represented. Sorcerers, librarians, 'nids, maguses, etc. probably shouldn't be perils'ing or getting denied. Thus, it makes more sense to have a special rule for the couple of units that *should* be that dangerous with their powers. (Wyrd boys and...?)
So similarly to psychic blanks, the scenarios that call for special interactions are in the vast minority, so it makes sense to me to have those exceptions work to fit with the design of psychic powers rather than the other way around. It's like when we discuss Morale in the Proposed Rules section and someone points out that getting scared and running away really only makes sense for like, three factions and a couple specific units in the game. Thus why people have pitched making morale a special rule for those factions/units rather than a universal subsystem.
Do you think that if Joe-Bob the Rogue psyker how discovered his powers three days ago casts lightning on Ahriman that it's unfluffy for Ahriman to deny that?
That is kind of unfluffy, yeah. Or at least, not something that seems to happen often enough to need a special rule to reflect it. Psyker duels in 40k don't generally seem to be about two guys staring at eachother while nothing happens. It's about one guy throwing a lightning bolt while the other guy puts up a forcefield to stop it and counters by trying to mind crush his opponent. In other words, it's not about stopping powers from happening; it's about powers happening and each of them having to deal with that.
Failed psychic tests, deny the witch, and perils just didn't really represent the lore very well. I'd be open to a system that *does* represent the lore better, but for now I'd rather be rid of unfluffy mechanics that make it clunkier to resolve effects.
So yes, agreed on failed psychic tests- get rid of them. And no, implementations of Perils and Deny may have felt unfluffy, the lore concept of both Perils and Deny are fundamental principles of psychic ability- especially Perils. They are important enough that a flawed system is better than now system. If perils isn't possible, why does the Hereticus exist?
Basically, because perils happen off the tabletop. And usually to expendable, minor characters.
True, but again the more robust the psychic system is, the more design space we have to make those missions interesting. Like maybe in a certain zone of the board (ie. proximity to one of the objectives) Perils are more likely to occur for non Chaos psykers to represent the fact that the objective is a powerful chaos relic. Or maybe if you pick up the objective, you can more effectively Deny the Witch. Those mission interactions are easy in a game system where the mechanics for Perils and Deny exist, but in a system where the don't exist, the mission has to contain all the rules.
Some merit to this. The vast variety of psychic effects in the game makes it hard to write one-size-fits-all rules to interact with any/all psychic powers. Then again, core rules that have tried to do that sort of thing in the past have been kind of hit or miss. Remember the 9th edition secondary that just gave your opponent full points when he killed your librarian? And I'm not sure anyone ever loved the rules for the noctilith crown.
Not familiar with how this was handled before, but I know that weapon powers can be modified through weapon upgrades in modern Crusade.
Weapon upgrades modify a specific weapon's stats. Psychic Mastery, due to the diversity of psychic power effects can't really do that, so instead it manipulates the system that governs the use of powers- you know an extra power, you can use an extra power per turn, that sorta thing. This made it feel very different from weapons upgrades, so it was really cool when a Psyker might take some weapon upgrades and some Psychic mastery upgrades.
That sounds like it could be modeled with the current Crusade rules by having some crusade relics (or whatever they're called) represent psychic powers. Give a character the relic. It now has the following psychic ability: (insert some rules here.)
Psychic Apocalypse was a rule that allowed an army fighting Witch Hunters to include a free Psyker so that the witch hunters had a witch to hunt. There were powers it could be given, and statlines, and FW even made a model based on the artwork for the unit. There was also a mission, and it was particularly suitable for a game against someone using the Psychic Apocalypse unit, but they could be used in regular missions as well.
That sounds super fluffy but also terrible for pickup games. So it sounds like the sort of thing that would be better handled by a special mission's rules rather than some universal rules.
Part of the problem here is that when you said "anti-psychic field" you were taking only about Blanks, and I lumped Deny in with it, since it is an anti-psychic ability even if it's not a field. The rules for Blanks in previous editions integrated with the psychic rules. The rules for Blanks in 10th are not as good because there are no dedicated core psychic rules for them to integrate with.
And if we DO include Deny? That opens up fourth category of folks affected: all psykers. That takes the number of factions with the potential to interact with these rules to all but 3 I think? Drukhari (though not true if the Drukhari army in question includes Voidscarred Corairs, or if those Drukhari are part of a Ynarri army), Tau and Necrons. Custodes and Admech only interact with Deny if they bring some IA.
As mentioned above, I don't think deny has ever been a particularly fluffy mechanic. So I'm still kind of back on not needing a universal subsystem to accomodate a handful of exceptions.
Again, the rules for blanks didn't have a system of their own; they were interactions with the rules that governed the use of psychic powers. Blanks, much like Psychic Missions, Psychic battle honours, psychic Theatre of War rules ALL require a psychic system to interact with in order to provide universal ways to modify abilities that have radically different battlefield effects.
I mean, the culexus has always been a little wonky and kind of illustrates why I don't agree with this. Even in editions with psychic tests, etc., the culexus basically didn't interact with a wide variety of effects that were warp-based in nature and that he probably should have interacted with. He didn't particularly interfere with daemons shooting fire from their eyes or having invulnerable saves due to their esoteric nature. Depending on the edition, he didn't generally prevent a psyker from moving his squad around faster. I'm pretty sure his 8th and 9th incarnations only really interacted with psychic powers that targeted him specifically (or rather, prevented him from being targeted). Basically, there are just way too many effects that are supernatural in 40k but that would be cumbersome to roll psychic tests for every time they come up. So the culexus just ended up not interacting with a bunch of psychic effects despite there being a universal subsystem in place for him to interact with.
So again, I'm all for seeing revised culexus rules to try and let him interact with more psychic effects, but a return to the old system wouldn't really accomplish that.
And generally, I'm open to someone taking another crack at a psychic system (to support some of the concepts you've mentioned here, or for whatever other purpose.) However, I don't think going back to one of the previous systems is inherently better than what we have now. Except in the context of the lack of customizable characters. Which stinks but I'd argue is basically a different discussion.
Is it fair to say that your position is that the psychic rules of 10th could be improved, while mine is that they should be improved?
More or less. I think we're arguing different points. I'm definitely not trying to take the stance that the current system is ideal. If I were to try and summarize the points I'm trying to make:
A.) The current system works pretty well in the sense that powers work pretty smoothly and feel like the things they're representing. Shooting fire from your wizard staff feels like shooting fire from a flamer, and that's intuitive.
B.) Tied to point A, I don't think of previous systems as being "better" because I don't miss most of the elements that we gave up. Deny was frustrating and unfluffy. Failed psychic tests were frustrating and unfluffy.
C.) When people say they miss the psychic phase or what have you, I find that they almost always switch to saying that they just miss being able to choose powers. To my mind, customizable wargear (powers) and things like psychic tests, deny, a psychic phase, etc. are completely different topics. It's like saying you miss 5th edition style morale, and then when pressed, you say what you actually miss is being able to Go to Ground. They're only tenuously connected to eachother, and I find that conflation interesting/weird.
I do appreciate the more civil format of this post. Thank you.
said this in the N&R thread, but this new drukhari detachment is the sort of thing that makes me want to start an army. it sounds really fun and thematic to play
You get back one of the options which you had in 5th edition before it was removed!
Not familiar with the Dark Eldar, what option is this?
Automatically Appended Next Post: ORKSTomorrow!
He might be under the impression that you can't take harlies with drukhari in 10th already?
New drukhari/harlie detachment looks fun and fluffy!
New craftworld detachment seems kind of pointless? Definitely weaker than the index detachment. The existence of the wayleaper autarch makes two of the enhancements redundant. The +1 to-hit enhancement is just less good than detachment rerolls from the index. And an extra d6" of movement is only rarely going to matter. I'm also not sure which of our infantry units particularly care about this. Dragons would rather be in falcons (and would rather have detachment rerolls). Wraithguard in a deepstriking serpent kind of makes sense, but the lack of rerolls is one step back, and you generally want wraith bricks rather than small squads so that they live long enough for a spiritseer to bring some of them back. Aside from that, it seems like this detachment just lets you cram a bunch of guardians into no man's land so they can die in droves. Which isn't particularly fluffy or interesting.
It will probably make more sense after the codex drops. Maybe battle focus only works on units with assault weapons or something.
Much like the Imperial Knight detachment, I'm guessing these Grotmas detachments are balanced for the future codex, not the current index.
Speaking of Imperial Knights, I ripped this off the internet... is this a viable army?
Creating a 2,000-point Warhammer 40,000 army list that combines Imperial Knights with Adeptus Mechanicus allies under the Questor Forgepact detachment offers a balanced and thematic force.
Imperial Knights (1,515 points):
Knight Crusader (465 points)
Enhancement: Knight of the Opus Machina (20 points)
Benefit: Re-roll Hit rolls of 1 for ranged attacks when within 6″ of a friendly Adeptus Mechanicus unit.
Knight Castellan (510 points)
2 Armiger Helverins (260 points)
2 Armiger Warglaives (280 points)
Adeptus Mechanicus Allies (465 points):
Tech-Priest Dominus (70 points)
Skitarii Marshal (35 points)
2 Units of Skitarii Rangers (170 points)
2 Units of Skitarii Vanguard (190 points)
Army Composition and Strategy:
Knight Crusader: Acts as a versatile fire support platform, engaging various targets with its diverse weaponry. The Knight of the Opus Machina enhancement ensures improved accuracy when near Adeptus Mechanicus units.
Knight Castellan: Provides heavy firepower capable of dealing with high-value enemy units, including vehicles and monsters.
Armiger Helverins: Offer long-range support, ideal for targeting infantry and light vehicles.
Armiger Warglaives: Serve as mobile units capable of engaging both armored and infantry targets effectively.
Tech-Priest Dominus: Supports nearby Knights with repair abilities and enhances the effectiveness of Skitarii units through leadership and buffs.
Skitarii Units: Provide board control, objective securing, and additional firepower. Their presence enables Knights to benefit from the Sacristan Pledge, enhancing durability.
You get back one of the options which you had in 5th edition before it was removed!
Not familiar with the Dark Eldar, what option is this?
Automatically Appended Next Post: ORKSTomorrow!
He might be under the impression that you can't take harlies with drukhari in 10th already?
New drukhari/harlie detachment looks fun and fluffy!
New craftworld detachment seems kind of pointless? Definitely weaker than the index detachment. The existence of the wayleaper autarch makes two of the enhancements redundant. The +1 to-hit enhancement is just less good than detachment rerolls from the index. And an extra d6" of movement is only rarely going to matter. I'm also not sure which of our infantry units particularly care about this. Dragons would rather be in falcons (and would rather have detachment rerolls). Wraithguard in a deepstriking serpent kind of makes sense, but the lack of rerolls is one step back, and you generally want wraith bricks rather than small squads so that they live long enough for a spiritseer to bring some of them back. Aside from that, it seems like this detachment just lets you cram a bunch of guardians into no man's land so they can die in droves. Which isn't particularly fluffy or interesting.
It will probably make more sense after the codex drops. Maybe battle focus only works on units with assault weapons or something.
These are done with codex comparability in mind. Which suggests what you’ve pointed out may not hold true once the Codex is on shelves.
Looking at it it seems you are going to end up with a crazy fast list, moving all over the place, with a handful of tricks. Nothing really broken looking though. I generally play a mech heavy list, so might give it a shot. If I get my Eldar to the table again in 10th...
xeen wrote: Orks issuing orders seems really fun. My buddy has a ork army painted and converted to look like us infantry from WW2. He is going to love this.
After seeming some of these fun detachments I want a do over for thousand sons
Sounds like a cool army... and perfect for this detachment.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
These are done with codex comparability in mind. Which suggests what you’ve pointed out may not hold true once the Codex is on shelves.
Oh absolutely. It's just frustrating because, for now, this detachment doesn't really have a point. It's kind of an IOU for a detachment that will become usable in two months. Right now, it doesn't really unlock any unique playstyles or encourage the use of unpopular units. It just does the same stuff the index detachment does but worse. Right now, if you want to field a bunch of tanks, you're better off sticking to the detachment that gives rerolls to your low number of shots and stratagems that help your passengers get safely back inside your transports.
Nevelon wrote:Looking at it it seems you are going to end up with a crazy fast list, moving all over the place, with a handful of tricks. Nothing really broken looking though. I generally play a mech heavy list, so might give it a shot. If I get my Eldar to the table again in 10th...
Maybe. Hopefully. I'm dubious. Letting eldar vehicles move an extra d6" isn't super useful. It's pretty rare that you're 6" or less away from reaching an objective, and it's almost never the difference in whether or not you can shoot at a target. Our shortest-ranged heavy weapon is 24", and the serpent itself moves 14(?)".
And unless a bunch of our units get some major overhauls, we don't really want to get *closer* to the enemy if we're not charging them. Our shooty units (including all of our vehicles) mostly want to keep their distance to reduce return fire because GW made our tanks less durable than human ones this edition. Our melee units don't really benefit from this detachment because all the tricks that let them get closer faster prevent them from charging afterwards. (Looking at the disembark after advancing and the 6" deepstrike strats.)
So there's some concern that this detachment might end up being a bad choice even for vehicle lists if there's any other detachment that just like, ups their durability or offense at all. And that's after we get rid of the clearly stronger index detachment.
I like the theory that Battle Focus (which is replacing fate dice as our new army rule) will tie into the Assault keyword. In which case, this becomes the detachment you use when you want to play peekaboo with tanks poking their noses out from behind ruins before scooting back out of sight. Which could be neat.
EDIT: Ork detachment looks neat! Seems fun and fluffy. If I were buying orks right now, I'd be tempted to build towards this detachment. It seems to do a good job of finding a use for a wide variety of units. Which is great given how easy it would be to just make this the all-kommandos-all-the-time detachment.
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xeen wrote: Orks issuing orders seems really fun. My buddy has a ork army painted and converted to look like us infantry from WW2. He is going to love this.
After seeming some of these fun detachments I want a do over for thousand sons
I'd love for Thousand Sons to get something like the librarian detachment. It's kind of doing flexible, fluffy magic better than our whole Cabal Point system.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Maybe the Eldar list is for getting further away from speedy close combat armies like Angron and the World Eaters... or just outpacing Custodes.
See, that would work if we were on massive tables with lots of room to maneuver. But I already have the option of starting the game in reserves or with my units pressed up against the edge of my deployment zone. Angron isn't catching my tanks because I'm too slow. He's catching my tanks because I'm boxed in. And an extra d6" of movement doesn't really change that.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
These are done with codex comparability in mind. Which suggests what you’ve pointed out may not hold true once the Codex is on shelves.
Oh absolutely. It's just frustrating because, for now, this detachment doesn't really have a point. It's kind of an IOU for a detachment that will become usable in two months. Right now, it doesn't really unlock any unique playstyles or encourage the use of unpopular units. It just does the same stuff the index detachment does but worse. Right now, if you want to field a bunch of tanks, you're better off sticking to the detachment that gives rerolls to your low number of shots and stratagems that help your passengers get safely back inside your transports.
Nevelon wrote:Looking at it it seems you are going to end up with a crazy fast list, moving all over the place, with a handful of tricks. Nothing really broken looking though. I generally play a mech heavy list, so might give it a shot. If I get my Eldar to the table again in 10th...
Maybe. Hopefully. I'm dubious. Letting eldar vehicles move an extra d6" isn't super useful. It's pretty rare that you're 6" or less away from reaching an objective, and it's almost never the difference in whether or not you can shoot at a target. Our shortest-ranged heavy weapon is 24", and the serpent itself moves 14(?)".
And unless a bunch of our units get some major overhauls, we don't really want to get *closer* to the enemy if we're not charging them. Our shooty units (including all of our vehicles) mostly want to keep their distance to reduce return fire because GW made our tanks less durable than human ones this edition. Our melee units don't really benefit from this detachment because all the tricks that let them get closer faster prevent them from charging afterwards. (Looking at the disembark after advancing and the 6" deepstrike strats.)
So there's some concern that this detachment might end up being a bad choice even for vehicle lists if there's any other detachment that just like, ups their durability or offense at all. And that's after we get rid of the clearly stronger index detachment.
I like the theory that Battle Focus (which is replacing fate dice as our new army rule) will tie into the Assault keyword. In which case, this becomes the detachment you use when you want to play peekaboo with tanks poking their noses out from behind ruins before scooting back out of sight. Which could be neat.
I generally agree. Assault is a nice perk, but we are already pretty zippy and mobile firepower is not generally an issue. I could not think of any units we would want to be within 6” but not charging. My first thought was Fire Dragons, but 12” guns would be just out of melta range. I had stuck in my mind that cloudstrike would at least allow us to disembark after moving, but I guess that’s all of 10th. The re-rolls are nice, but that’s not unique.
My experience (which is largely in prior editions) is that we want to keep the range open as long as we can, and troops mostly get one shot before evaporating after disembarking. On larger tables that was more of a big deal. Not sure if the extra speed from this detachment will help, but the fall back and shoot and -charge range strats might.
It certainly looks fun and playable. I’ll be very interested to see how it meshes with the new codex once that drops.
new IG detachment is... probably alright, but lacks some of the unique energy that these other detachments have had. its form of conditional battleline isn't even unique, since that also was in the index (but this makes me wonder if they left it out of the codex for this)
Something I've been pondering. Deathwatch don't technically have Inceptors, Eradicators, or Aggressors in their kill teams. They are just "Heavy Intercessors" with (insert wargear). I'm almost tempted to convert all they guys from Heavy Intercessors with WYSIWYG wargear. It would mean having Inceptors on their feet and NOT on those silly flight stands. It's technically not even cheating in a modeling for advantage sense.
If they are indeed making these detachments future-proof, then I'll bet none of them interact with Shadow of Chaos.
I have no idea what that is...
The fine forumites will have to tell me if the Daemons' detachments are any good today.
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cuda1179 wrote: Something I've been pondering. Deathwatch don't technically have Inceptors, Eradicators, or Aggressors in their kill teams. They are just "Heavy Intercessors" with (insert wargear). I'm almost tempted to convert all they guys from Heavy Intercessors with WYSIWYG wargear. It would mean having Inceptors on their feet and NOT on those silly flight stands. It's technically not even cheating in a modeling for advantage sense.
Is that allowed? In a GW tournament sense? For regular games, I could see the issue of having units that can FLY on non flying bases.... but don't Jump Packs have FLY and they are on non flying bases.... hmmmm. I don't have a problem with that, but I could see an evil rules lawyer having some issue.
cuda1179 wrote: Something I've been pondering. Deathwatch don't technically have Inceptors, Eradicators, or Aggressors in their kill teams. They are just "Heavy Intercessors" with (insert wargear). I'm almost tempted to convert all they guys from Heavy Intercessors with WYSIWYG wargear. It would mean having Inceptors on their feet and NOT on those silly flight stands. It's technically not even cheating in a modeling for advantage sense.
Depends on how much height change you end up with, and how much it changes things. If your walls are high enough to hide a flight stand Interceptor its pretty much a difference without a distinction. If the walls hide the landed Interceptor but not the flying one, it starts providing an advantage.
Is that allowed? In a GW tournament sense? For regular games, I could see the issue of having units that can FLY on non flying bases.... but don't Jump Packs have FLY and they are on non flying bases.... hmmmm. I don't have a problem with that, but I could see an evil rules lawyer having some issue.
Its no different than any other conversion - so its up to the Tournament organizer usually - and a ton of the Tournament people will have likely already "converted" their Inceptors with 3D Printed smoke stands instead of the clear plastic flight stand. And you've got six plastic tokens. If 4-5 are on the flight stand, and 1-2 are on foot in between "bounding hops" you can always swap this mini for that mini to get LOS.
cuda1179 wrote: Something I've been pondering. Deathwatch don't technically have Inceptors, Eradicators, or Aggressors in their kill teams. They are just "Heavy Intercessors" with (insert wargear). I'm almost tempted to convert all they guys from Heavy Intercessors with WYSIWYG wargear. It would mean having Inceptors on their feet and NOT on those silly flight stands. It's technically not even cheating in a modeling for advantage sense.
Depends on how much height change you end up with, and how much it changes things. If your walls are high enough to hide a flight stand Interceptor its pretty much a difference without a distinction. If the walls hide the landed Interceptor but not the flying one, it starts providing an advantage.
Is that allowed? In a GW tournament sense? For regular games, I could see the issue of having units that can FLY on non flying bases.... but don't Jump Packs have FLY and they are on non flying bases.... hmmmm. I don't have a problem with that, but I could see an evil rules lawyer having some issue.
Its no different than any other conversion - so its up to the Tournament organizer usually - and a ton of the Tournament people will have likely already "converted" their Inceptors with 3D Printed smoke stands instead of the clear plastic flight stand. And you've got six plastic tokens. If 4-5 are on the flight stand, and 1-2 are on foot in between "bounding hops" you can always swap this mini for that mini to get LOS.
Remember, NOT Inceptor, Heavy Intercessor with jump pack. There is no model of this, and the only Heavy Intercessor model is grounded.
Remember, NOT Inceptor, Heavy Intercessor with jump pack. There is no model of this, and the only Heavy Intercessor model is grounded.
Yeah, I've pointed out that you can play this game with pocket change in the past. But if you want to get into the "Heavy Intercessor with Jump Pack" Semantics, the rulebook says you have to play with Citadel Models, and as you just pointed out there isn't a Citadel Model for Heavy Intercessor with Jump Pack, so you'd have to wait for them to release some.
shame that it's just more battleshock stuff, which are pretty much never relevant.
Nurgle seems like the biggest loser in these new detachments.
Khorne has obvious power
Slaanesh is strong and fluffy
Tzeentch i'm gonna need to play a few times to get a feel for but i'm seeing very nice stuff in there
I like the tzeentch one a lot. The mechanic is qurirky but could be really good with boosting the strats. And all the strats and enhancements seem useable to great. Tzeentch is my fav and all my daemons except 1 unit are tzeentch so I will try this out. Not sure when as haven’t been able to play much but I am more interested in using this than the index detachment
xeen wrote: I like the tzeentch one a lot. The mechanic is qurirky but could be really good with boosting the strats. And all the strats and enhancements seem useable to great. Tzeentch is my fav and all my daemons except 1 unit are tzeentch so I will try this out. Not sure when as haven’t been able to play much but I am more interested in using this than the index detachment
The tzeentch one is very interesting, at first read it seemed pretty middling but the more i look into it and see the various interactions in it, the more excited i am to try it out.
I think it genuinely might be my favorite detachment so far in grotmas, with the Drukhari x Harlequins coming in close in second
BorderCountess wrote: The Tzeentch detachment is awesomely hilarious and I can't wait to give it a whirl! I think my top 5 so far are:
1) Tzeentchian Hilarity
2) Drukhari vs. Harlequins
3) Chaos Knights with Cultists Imperial Knights with AdMech
4) Blood Ravens Tome Keepers
5) March of the Dreadnoughts (Custodes)
JNAProductions wrote: Looking further at the Nurgle Detachment, I'm not exactly thrilled about the Detachment rule.
But the Enhancements are pretty tasty. I'll take it.
I'm not familar with how they play, what are they good at?
JNAProductions wrote: Looking further at the Nurgle Detachment, I'm not exactly thrilled about the Detachment rule.
But the Enhancements are pretty tasty. I'll take it.
I'm not familar with how they play, what are they good at?
One is just another defensive buff. Lone Operative (but at 18") for all Nurgle units within 6"-nifty for avoiding long-range firepower.
But the other one gives a bonus point of AP to all Nurgle attacks within 6"-that could be a game changer.
Oh Yeah, I'm going to have to remember unit coherency - now that I'm using infantry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Huh, I just realized something....
There is no Honored bonus for the Grotmas Knight Detachment.
Fo you think that mechanic will disappear with the upcoming IK codex (or become a specific detachment thing) and that this detachment doesn't interact with it because it was written to be compatible with the new codex?
There’s nothing more Grotmassy than stockings hanging over an open fire, so take a leaf out of the great big Leagues of Votann book and get the home fires burning with the Hearthband.
When the Eye of the Ancestors has been fixed on some site or resource deemed vital to a Hold, the Kindred may form a Hearthband to ensure its swift conquest. Typically led by one of the most courageous and cunning Kâhls, such forces are painstakingly forged to complete the precise mission for which they are assembled.
Einhyr elites lead the charge, exo‐armoured forms advancing like the Ancestors returned to life, contemptuous of the enemy’s pitiful attempts to cut them down. Hand‐picked Hearthkyn support this advance, no mere citizen soldiers but the finest warriors of the kinhost assembled for this one crucial mission. Driving inexorably into the teeth of the foe, the Hearthband does not stop until their task is complete and the battle is won.
The Hearthband represents the finest weapons and warriors of the kindred, and there is no foe that they will not face down. Methodical Annihilation exemplifies the discipline of the Leagues of Votann, allowing for reliable point-blank elimination. You can re-roll Hit rolls of 1 against the closest target, while units led by their greatest champions also get an extra point of Armour Penetration.
To emphasise the importance of a Heathband’s mission, they are granted Enhancements such as the Quake Multigenerator, rare wargear that destabilises enemies and reduces the effectiveness of any counter-attack. Particular attention has been given to their melee weapons, and Superior Craftsmanship grants +1 Damage against a Monster or Vehicle.
ZergSmasher wrote: That Votann detachment is kinda sad compared to their index one. Not competitive at all, but I suppose it could be fun for more casual games.
I've never read any Votann stuff outside of their lore... how's it play vs the Grotmas stuff?
ZergSmasher wrote: That Votann detachment is kinda sad compared to their index one. Not competitive at all, but I suppose it could be fun for more casual games.
It's definitely boring compared to some of the fun detachments like Orks had, but I'm not so sure it's weak. A unit of Hearthguard can have:
*Permanent armour of contempt (always on for 1 unit only - enhancement)
*Hit on rerollable 2's on all attacks (always on if a judgement token is in use)
*Extra AP (always on except for the grenade launcher)
*Double rate of fire on plasma guns when needed (1 unit per shooting phase - strat)
*Damage 3 fists when needed (1 unit per fight phase - strat)
*Close range deepstrike to get a mass of volkanites into rapid fire range if needed (up to 44 shots with rapid fire strat)
Lots of Heathguard with Champions/Khals, and lots of Hearthkyn/Thunderkyn supporting would be fine.
ZergSmasher wrote: That Votann detachment is kinda sad compared to their index one. Not competitive at all, but I suppose it could be fun for more casual games.
I'm not very tuned into LoV, but I got the impression that it's probably fine as a niche change of pace for those who have the right models. Similar to the 'nid warrior detachment in that way. Not likely to be seen at a tournament, but it does look like it probably offers a new playstyle for those who want to lean into it.
If there’s one faction that knows how to count down to an event, it’s the Genestealer Cults. For today’s Grotmas Calendar Detachment, it’s the long-awaited Final Day.
Every Genestealer Cultist longs to witness the arrival of the Star Children, and then ascend to join them in blessed oneness. This will be a transcendent experience, a sublime reward for their devotion, or so they believe. The reality is altogether more hideous: as the Tyranids approach, the utterly alien Hive Mind assimilates the more nuanced Broodmind of the Cult.
Many of the faithful die from psionic shock, while others are freed from Tyranid mind control only to go mad with horror as the truth is revealed. The rest become short‐lived puppets for the first waves of Tyranid vanguard organisms descending on their world. Exerting its will to make them fight harder and move faster, the Hive Mind swiftly burns out those who survive, harvesting each flicker of bioenergy to reinvigorate its more valuable Tyranid organisms.
Now, that doesn’t sound like good news for the Genestealer Cults, we’ll grant you – nor very Grotmassy at all! You might feel better about the whole affair, however, when you discover how the Psionic Parasitism Detachment rule works. Yes, you may include Tyranid Vanguard units in their army, and your cultists earn +1 to Hit when selecting targets within 6” of these organisms. The Tyranids can also get +1 to Hit – and heal a few lost Wounds – for the low, low price of some Cultist biomatter… perhaps with a dollop of cranberry sauce.
The definitely justified devotion of the cultists towards these Star Gods is represented by Enhancements such as Inhuman Integration, which grants a Cults unit’s weapons Sustained Hits 1, and by Stratagems such as Avenge the Star Children. When a Tyranids Character is slain, Genestealer Cults get +1 to Hit and to Wound against whoever dared raise a hand to their long-awaited saviour.
oh! hell yeah. this rules. i've wanted to play nids and GSC together all edition, and this is a great way of enabling that. seems strong for bringing some monsters along as bruisers to fill rolls that GSC normally struggles with
StudentOfEtherium wrote: oh! hell yeah. this rules. i've wanted to play nids and GSC together all edition, and this is a great way of enabling that. seems strong for bringing some monsters along as bruisers to fill rolls that GSC normally struggles with
Sounds like you're a lot happier. I know the last couple months have been kinda crummy with what they've done to Genestealer Cults.
So glad they gave us that GSC detachment. Can't wait to see the new GSC Crusade content in WD this month- I'm wondering if it's going to line up with the "Arrival of the Star Children" stuff- that's something that isn't well represented by the Crusade content in the dex, so it would make sense.
Looking forward to sisters too. I think it's going to be a vehicle heavy detachment.
I don't play either of those armies, but that detachment rocks! So fluffy and the tag line about what happens when the Nids arrive is so great. I would love to play against this
xeen wrote: I don't play either of those armies, but that detachment rocks! So fluffy and the tag line about what happens when the Nids arrive is so great. I would love to play against this
I think this one maybe beat out the Thousand Sons one for "worst grotmas detachment" The detachment rule is you need to spend precious miracle dice to "improve" three units? And then limited to only a few units that are actually getting anything of "value" and raising the OC of what my understanding is a subpar unit in 10th. Some one really phoned this one in.
Dysartes wrote: Don't forget the Space Wolves, BorderCountess - I don't see them on the list yet.
Whenever I'm listing chapters I always forget them for some reason. I think its probably because I think of them as way more of their own thing than even DA or BA.
Would have been really good if they hadn't just nerfed the quantity of Miracle Dice you generate.
Exactly. Given the nerf they gave miracle dice in the recent updates, this detachment is just rubbing salt in the wound.
I tend to agree. I think I'll try it at some point anyway, but I'll be combining with the rules for Hymns that we got in the Orktober WD (505?) as well as regular Crusade rules, some of which may offset the nerf and possibly augment the detachment. This detachment is similar to Battle Hymns in function, so stacking might be a) over the top and b) too MD intensive. Battle Hymns are more complex, nuance and well developed... But they only work in Crusade. I think both are decent ways to get rid of low MD rolls; other detachments contain other ways of doing that, but it's nice to be able to do it without burning a strat.
I'm trying to think of narrative triggers for the use of this detachment. It provides extra bonusses to Sacressants and Paragons, so a related question might be about narrative triggers for the inclussion of those units. Sacressants being primarily bodyguards, an army full of characters impotant enough to merrit a bodyguard. The rationale for Paragons might be terrain based? Perahaps narrow passages or gaps for tanks force the army to use something with a smaller footprint for their heavy support?
In terms of the Righteousness schtick, I think in a game with multiple Agendas, you could pick one of those to be Righteous, and then use the Righteousness powers to support the units pursuing that objective. Giving a Saint Potentia a Saccressant bodyguard and keeping her unit Righteous might be another cool Narrative trick.
As a Sisters player I think this detachment, as bad as it may seem at first glance, actually has some play just due to some of the stratagems that simply are not present in the rest of the codex detachments. Being able to pile in and consolidate 6" and being able to fall back and shoot or fall back and shoot and charge if you spent an MD on a unit are both pretty strong. Paragon Warsuits can definitely get hefty buffs in this detachment and I think some Sacresants and BSS builds that can flood the board with bodies might see a little play. This is obviously not going to outperform Hallowed Martyrs now that Bringers is pretty much dead and Army of Faith is subpar at best despite being able to give MD through enhancements and Strats, but I think certain specific builds could be pretty potent and keep Sisters as at least a mid tier faction until the next Dataslate.
Speaking of that I am almost positive that when the next Balance Patch for the game hits in the Spring, Sisters will have dropped to a point (44-45% winrate at best) where GW can at least remove one or two layers of these nerfs. Even just removing the nerf to gaining Miracle Dice when units get destroyed each phase I think would make the faction relatively fine without giving any NPE's (though as of the last few months I am still not certain why an army with barely above a 50% winrate was so much in the crosshairs of GW). I would love to see Bringers at least go back to 12" range for the strength buff while the Stratagem cost changes stay since it still nerfs the detachment, but I doubt that will be happening. Regardless of what exactly happens, I think some level of "more Miracle Dice" will be given back to the faction in the next dataslate and as soon as that happens I could see Champions of Faith seeing a fair amount of play, maybe almost as much as Hallowed Martyrs at least casually since Army of Faith usually requires spending 2 MD per unit each phase to get the most out of the detachment rule while this really just requires one big turn of discarding 3 MD and saving up for that big turn of Righteous. Other than that turn it will probably be okay to only discard one or two MD max just to buff a Paragon unit or a Sacresant unit (maybe a BSS or even other unit if it really makes sense to in order to get that +1 movement).
This is definitely mediocre at best right now, but I think it still has play and many Sisters players at my FLGS are considering it more of a low C tier detachment which I think makes some sense. I will be playtesting a little with it but personally it fits the balanced shooty and fighty vibe that I love to play with my Sisters collection and yet also has that level of Faith that has always made the army so cool to me since the end of 4th edition, so in terms of theme I love it and I really think the Sisters community CAN make it work even if it doesn't top tables much. Even Art of War does see some value in it if only for the solid stratagems that either require more setup if one is playing Army of Faith OR that simply do not exist like the Fall Back and Shoot strat, since the Penitent Host one isn't universal since its only for Penitent units.
The Dark Angels might have monopolised all the obvious Grotmas gags about angels three weeks ago, but the Blood Angels have arrived to bring death to the enemies of the Imperium – enter the Angelic Inheritors.
The Blood Angels have inherited much from their Primarch. Their grace, nobility and psychic prowess all trace back to Sanguinius, as does the spiritual curse that has afflicted them since his death. More esoteric, perhaps, but no less a gift of their gene‐sire, is their propensity to blaze brightest during the darkest moments of despair. Just as Sanguinius himself is said to have brought hope to the hopeless at the point of his gilded spear, so too do the Blood Angels rise in the face of adversity as though in fulfilment of some ancient prophecy. At such times, the angelic and monstrous natures ever at war within Sanguinius’ gene‐sons find an equilibrium. Icy calm in their ferocity, furious in their clarity, the warrior angels of Baal strike with unerring and unstoppable wrath to snatch victory from the bloodied jaws of defeat.
The Legacy of the Angel manifests itself in the form of three abilities. Blood Angels will choose two of these at the start of the battle, and all of their Character units will benefit. They might choose the power to Fall Back, Shoot, and Charge in the same turn, or re-roll Hit rolls and Wound rolls of 1, or re-roll Advance and Charge rolls. The Troubling Visions Enhancement even lets a Character unit benefit from all three Legacy abilities for the equivalent of one battle round, while continuing the theme of the cursed blessings that the Blood Angels have inherited from Sanguinius.
The Detachment supports an aggressive playstyle, with Stratagems like Unto the Burning Skies, which sends Blood Angels Jump Pack units back to Strategic Reserves at the end of your opponent’s Fight phase, ready to descend like avenging angels all over again. The Sanguinor can even do this within Engagement range of enemy units, making him a terrifying foe to face.
I'm mildly salty about the new BA detachment. Mostly because it kind of seems like a +1 version of a lot of other detachments.
Picking two of the detachment optional abilities where something like the invasion fleet only gets one. Their to-hit/wound rerolls just require a character be attached whereas even the very spicy starshatter detachment at least required your target be on an objective.
I doubt it's going to break the game or anything, but it does make me wonder if designers thought marine players were avoiding characters or something. I'm not sure I've faced a marine infantry squad all edition that didn't have a character attached, so it feels like kind of a non-tax.
Lathe Biosas wrote: I wonder what the Tau will get? Auxiliaries where it's just kroot and vespid?
Any ideas?
The article that says Tau are next says "Detachment for players who like their big shiny toys", so I'd guess it's tanks and other big stuff. Which is something I'm looking forward to (the Hammerhead's my favorite unit in all of 40k), but I'm pretty salty that they've given out a bunch of allies detachments and it doesn't look like Tau are getting one. Somehow, Dark Eldar and Tyranids* are getting more allies options in 10th than the faction that knows what a peace treaty is.
*GSC technically, but 'nids are one half and that counts.
the t'au detachment, while not a soup detachment, is still nice. making the t'au play nice together is fun, and seems like a flavorful way to demonstrate their unity. idk how good it is, but it doesn't seem awful
All are welcome at the T’au Empire table of success this Grotmas – just remember that you’ll be expected to share. Exemplify the spirit of giving with the Auxiliary Cadre.
The T’au’va emphasises cooperation, integrating alien auxiliaries into Fire Caste operations wherever they are of greatest value. This typically sees units of Kroot, Vespid, and other aliens fighting as specialists alongside predominantly T’au formations or deployed in dedicated warbands, such as the Kroot Hunting Packs.
In the case of Auxiliary Cadres, however, the doctrine of unity is realised on a grand scale. These forces comprise a majority of alien auxiliaries, fighting alongside limited numbers of T’au specialists and heavy combat assets and provided with overall T’au strategic command. Such integrated cadres provide versatile response forces to plug gaps in Fire Caste lines of battle, blunt enemy aggression in dense terrain, and selflessly act as lures in grand Kauyon ambushes to spare valuable T’au lives.
The Auxiliary Cadre boasts an Integrated Command Structure – the Detachment rule – which grants non-Auxiliary T’au Empire units extra Armour Penetration when they target an enemy unit within 9” of their Auxiliaries. In return for placing themselves in harm’s way, the Auxiliaries themselves cannot be targeted by units more than 18” away, as long as they remain within 6” of a non-Auxiliary unit.
This theme of courageous allies working together in the face of the foe continues with the Enhancements and Stratagems. The Admired Leader Enhancement allows a non-Auxiliary character to increase the Leadership and Objective Secured characteristics of a Kroot or Vespid unit, instilling discipline to rival any Fire Caste unit. The Guided Fire Stratagem meanwhile grants a significant increase to the Strength of the ranged weapons of a non-Auxiliary unit if there is a Kroot or Vespid unit within 9”.
I just wish James Workshop would put in more of the Auxiliary- namely the giant owlbear psykers... Also, put the rumor that Demiurge are just Votann Kin to rest!
I actually love the tau auxiliary detachment! It's perfect for the theme I've been going for, and imo more interesting than most of the other detachments they have at the moment.
We're almost finished with our holiday list, only the Templar, World Eaters, and Space Wolves remain.
The question is, which of these were presents, and which were lumps of coal in your stockings?
DEC 1 Death Guard
DEC 2 Dark Angels
DEC 3 Tyranids
DEC 4 Thousand Sons
DEC 5 Adeptus Mechanicus
DEC 6 Necrons
DEC 7 Deathwatch
DEC 8 Adeptus Custodes
DEC 8 Officio Assassinorum
DEC 9 Chaos Knights
DEC 9 Imperial Knights
DEC 10 Grey Knights
DEC 11 Space Marines
DEC 12 Chaos Space Marines (Bile)
DEC 13 Eldar
DEC 13 Dark Eldar
DEC 14 Orks
DEC 15 Imperial Guard
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 17 Leagues of Votann
DEC 18 Genestealer Cults
DEC 19 Sisters of Battle
DEC 20 Blood Angels
DEC 21 Tau
DEC 22 Black Templar
DEC 23 World Eaters
DEC 24 Heroes of Prospero (Space Wolves)
Deathwatch was a win because having anything that allows them to be fielded as a force again is a bonus; I was never adverse to doing this using the Legends units, but I know that a lot of people don't roll with Legends. Plus, they did update the teams in interesting ways- the jump team is kinda cool.
I really like the GSC and the Tau Auxiliary.
I like the Sisters too, but their Crusade content from WD 505 is similar to the detachment, and cooler because you don't have to play a detachment to get the option.
I think I like the Dark Eldar one, but I'd like the bet mechanic to apply with rival drukhari factions- like if a Wych Cult and a Kabal team up for a Realspace Raid, I would want them to be able to bet- it's a nice little narrative hook.
But it's interesting, because Harlequins were the one flavour of Eldar I hadn't felt a need to collect, but now it might be fun to buy a Kill Team; that's two 40kMSU, so maybe pack 5 into a Starweaver with a Troupe Master, 5 into another with a Shadow Seer for 40k.
That's all I've read so far. I still need to look into Ksons, GK, Guard, Daemons of Slaanesh and CSM- I have small collections for all of those.
The Black Templars are the carol singers no-one wants to knock on their door this Grotmas. But you’re going to struggle to get out of the way of such a Wrathful Procession.
The Black Templars excel at shock assaults with heavy infantry. These talents prove especially effective when armoured support is limited, or terrain is too dense to deploy heavier assets. Whether taking an enemy facility corridor by corridor, storming into the breach during a siege, or digging heretics out of thick jungle, the Black Templars are the right answer.
Before such engagements, their leaders fire their fanaticism with hate‐fuelled oratory and vox‐amplified prayer. As one, the Black Templars begin their advance, banners to the fore, a holy procession swiftly gathering pace from stride to lope to thunderous headlong charge that caves in the enemy lines like a ceramite‐clad fist.
The Wrathful Procession is bolstered by Zealous Litanies: a trio of wrathful prayers to choose from each battle round. Whether the situation calls for haste, hatred or contempt, this Detachment has you covered with buffs to Move, Strength and Invulnerable Saves.
This is a Detachment that wants to get across the battlefield and get stuck in, and the Enhancements and Stratagems support this. Nothing says fervour like Fights First, and that’s exactly what the Sacred Rage Enhancement grants its bearer’s unit, once per battle. Meanwhile, the Relentless Momentum Stratagem allows Black Templars in fighting units to attack from up to 3” away – perfect for allowing those large Crusader squads to deliver 100% of their hatred to their foes.
Lathe Biosas wrote: We're almost finished with our holiday list, only the Templar, World Eaters, and Space Wolves remain.
The question is, which of these were presents, and which were lumps of coal in your stockings?
DEC 1 Death Guard
DEC 2 Dark Angels
DEC 3 Tyranids
DEC 4 Thousand Sons
DEC 5 Adeptus Mechanicus
DEC 6 Necrons
DEC 7 Deathwatch
DEC 8 Adeptus Custodes
DEC 8 Officio Assassinorum
DEC 9 Chaos Knights
DEC 9 Imperial Knights
DEC 10 Grey Knights
DEC 11 Space Marines
DEC 12 Chaos Space Marines (Bile)
DEC 13 Eldar
DEC 13 Dark Eldar
DEC 14 Orks
DEC 15 Imperial Guard
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 17 Leagues of Votann
DEC 18 Genestealer Cults
DEC 19 Sisters of Battle
DEC 20 Blood Angels
DEC 21 Tau
DEC 22 Black Templar
DEC 23 World Eaters
DEC 24 Heroes of Prospero (Space Wolves)
The Tau one is probably the one that I'm most excited for. It seems fluffy, powerful enough to not punish me for using it, and it opens up a more combined arms/species approach to tau (whereas the kroot detachment was more about leaning heavily into kroot with just a little tau shooting for support and no real reason to include vespid.) The dark eldar one is also one I'm excited to try, with its bonuses giving us a reason to field some units we may have otherwise passed on and providing some substantial bonuses to units that don't necessarily want to ride in transports. So again, fluffy and opens up a new playstyle. And finally, the librarian detachment was just dripping with fluff, seemed like it would be flexible and interesting to actually pilot, and all without seeming OP.
For me, the lumps of coal were the the necron one and the craftworld one. The former just seems kind of power creepy while also not doing a very good job of telling the story its fluff claims it's trying to tell. The latter will probably be fine once the codex drops, but for now it's just worse than the index detachment at pretty much everything. It's even a significantly worse choice for lists that are fielding lots of vehicles, which is what it claims it wants to represent.
Most of the other detachments were just kind of meh or impractical to get the most out of. Many of them were just generic kill-more-betterer detachments (here's looking at you, Black Templars) or seemed like they were trying to do the same thing an existing detachment already does (Thousand Sons). Some like the tyranid warrior one had some neat ideas but require hundreds of dollars of warriors to really shine.
Overall, it felt like the designers had a few interesting ideas they were really passionate about putting out there, and then they had to go back and make some mostly safe, mostly boring detachments for the other factions.
Presents:
DEC 3 Tyranids - I like this one. I've already got a fair amount of Warriors from previous cycles of playing Tyranids. So, if I dig them out I'm all set.
DEC 6 Necrons - I like Necrons. More options are always welcome. especially one that fit nicely with what I do anyways. DEC 7 Deathwatch - Not sure I'll ever make full/proper use of this one, but more options....
DEC 8 Adeptus Custodes - As the core of my own Custodes is jetbikes & I like dreadnoughts? This is great.
DEC 8 Officio Assassinorum - See comments about DW above.
DEC 9 Chaos Knights - Oh I'll absolutely put this to use. DEC 9 Imperial Knights - Not as good as the one above IMO, but I'll still get value out of this one.
DEC 10 Grey Knights - slightly better for my own force & my playstyle I'm thinking
DEC 18 Genestealer Cults - Ooh, more ways to soup a list together. I don't currently have a GSC force, but if I did.... DEC 23 World Eaters - I can work with this.
Coal:
DEC 4 Thousand Sons - TS simply don't interest me & this detachment doesn't change that.
DEC 11 Space Marines - not my style
DEC 13 Dark Eldar - Well, Harlies simply don't fit in my force. I've no intention of adding any either, so completely useless to me.
DEC 21 Tau - Kroot & Vespids = meh.
Neither/undecided:
DEC 1 Death Guard
DEC 2 Dark Angels
DEC 5 Adeptus Mechanicus
DEC 12 Chaos Space Marines (Bile)
DEC 13 Eldar
DEC 14 Orks
DEC 15 Imperial Guard
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 17 Leagues of Votann
DEC 19 Sisters of Battle
DEC 20 Blood Angels
DEC 22 Black Templar
Lathe Biosas wrote: We're almost finished with our holiday list, only the Templar, World Eaters, and Space Wolves remain.
The question is, which of these were presents, and which were lumps of coal in your stockings?
Exactly What I Wanted for Grotmas:
DEC 9 Chaos Knights
DEC 11 Blood Ravens
DEC 13 Dark Eldar
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons - Tzeentch
Presents:
DEC 1 Death Guard
DEC 2 Dark Angels
DEC 6 Necrons
DEC 8 Adeptus Custodes
DEC 8 Officio Assassinorum
DEC 9 Imperial Knights
DEC 10 Grey Knights
DEC 12 Chaos Space Marines (Bile)
DEC 14 Orks
DEC 18 Genestealer Cults
DEC 20 Blood Angels
DEC 21 Tau
DEC 22 Black Templar
Neutral:
DEC 5 Adeptus Mechanicus
DEC 7 Deathwatch
DEC 15 Imperial Guard
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons - Khorne
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons - Slaanesh
DEC 17 Leagues of Votann
DEC 19 Sisters of Battle - This would be a present two weeks ago...
Coal:
DEC 3 Tyranids - Too focused on a single unit.
DEC 4 Thousand Sons - Not a fan of 'zone of control' rules, and doesn't really distinguish itself from the existing detachment.
DEC 13 Eldar - The focus on vehicles is certainly a choice...
"I hope you kept the receipt":
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons - Nurgle
DEC 23 World Eaters - They're the most boring faction in the game, in my opinion.
DEC 24 Butchers of Prospero (Space Wolves)
The World Eaters have earned Khorne’s favour, which is the only gift they need this Christmas, and you can join in the festive argument with the Vessels of Wrath Detachment.
When the power of the Warp waxes and Khorne’s worshippers pour into battle, the bloody butchery reaches new heights. Upon this carmine altar of war, Khorne’s champions compete mercilessly to win his favour and feel his forge‐hot touch upon their souls.
Every savage stride along the Path to Glory sees them hack down more luckless foes. Blood runs in rivers and smears barricades with arterial sprays as the champions of Khorne strike off heads and carve open bodies, seeking the worthy kill that will – for but the most fleeting of moments – catch the eye of Khorne. Amidst such wanton carnage, even the lowliest devotee of the Blood God can begin their rise to power, their comrades looking on with naked hunger as aspiration becomes a violent reality.
With the Wrath of Khorne Detachment rule, your World Eater champions become Vessels of Wrath and are gifted another Blessing of Khorne each battle round. They confer this Blessing to their unit, allowing for these chosen to bring carnage to their enemies.
The Archslaughterer Enchantment grants a World Eaters Character improved Armour Penetration as he puts his rage into each swing, and when they are a Vessel of Wrath they also boost their weapon’s Damage by 1. Looking to prove their prowess at all times, these World Eaters may use the Stratagem Overshadowed by None, which gives them re-rolls to Wound when targeting a Monster or Vehicle; no foe, whatever its size, will overshadow Khorne's favoured.
------
Join us in a few months for World Easter, our next seasonal Warhammer crossover…
Uhhh has anyone heard of World Easter before?
In the meantime, we’ve saved the goodest boys for last: the Space Wolves!
Makes me wonder if the Space Wolves are getting something really nice tomorrow.
Lord Damocles wrote: Oh good. The World Eaters' detachment makes the one dimensional melee dudes better at melee. Daring today, aren't we.
There's not much you can do with that army...
As much fun as a shooty WE force would be, I can't see any other types of Detachments for these guys.
The only faction in all of Warhmmer that's more boring than the World Eaters is Age of Sigmar's Blades of Khorne. At least the World Eaters have access to tanks and Daemon Engines.
The question is, which of these were presents, and which were lumps of coal in your stockings?
I'm not going to play these armies but I think they either have awesome special rules, or they are extremely fluffy
DEC 5 Adeptus Mechanicus
DEC 7 Deathwatch
DEC 8 Officio Assassinorum
DEC 9 Chaos Knights
DEC 11 Space Marines Blood Ravens
DEC 12 Chaos Space Marines (Bile)
DEC 13 Dark Eldar
DEC 14 Orks
DEC 18 Genestealer Cults
DEC 21 Tau
The forces I can see myself spending time and money on are:
DEC 8 Adeptus Custodes
DEC 9 Imperial Knights
I don't know enough about these to have a string opinion either way, because I either know zero about how the army plays or the detachment just didn't pop out to me.
DEC 1 Death Guard
DEC 2 Dark Angels
DEC 3 Tyranids
DEC 4 Thousand Sons
DEC 6 Necrons
DEC 10 Grey Knights
DEC 13 Eldar
DEC 15 Imperial Guard
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 16 Chaos Daemons
DEC 17 Leagues of Votann
DEC 19 Sisters of Battle
DEC 20 Blood Angels
And then there are the blocks of boredom that seem unfun to play... or just more of the same that the army normally does anyways.
DEC 22 Black Templar
DEC 23 World Eaters
We'll have to wait until tomorrow to find out if BorderCountess's nemesis: the Heroes of Prospero aka Space Wolves have been worth the wait.
Lord Damocles wrote: Oh good. The World Eaters' detachment makes the one dimensional melee dudes better at melee. Daring today, aren't we.
There's not much you can do with that army...
As much fun as a shooty WE force would be, I can't see any other types of Detachments for these guys.
Vehicle heavy, daemon engine heavy, greater integration of daemons, allowed to take a selection of units from Chaos Marines (remember Khorne Daemonkin. Remember what they took from you!)
This Grotmas, if you’re searching for the devoted helpers of a large, bearded man in a flying sleigh, look no further than today’s Grotmas Calendar Detachment: the Champions of Fenris.
The Champions of Fenris let rip with blood‐chilling howls as they storm into battle. They are the hand‐picked warriors of Great Wolf Logan Grimnar, the exemplars of all that it means to be a Space Wolf, and every last one fights to prove themselves worthy of such accolades. Even should they do battle without their lord, still they strive as though he was watching and judging their every effort. They commit one saga‐worthy deed after another, hunting down the mightiest prey. On worlds across the galaxy, no matter how terrible the foe or deadly the battlefield, the Champions of Fenris fight endlessly in defence of the Allfather’s realm.
These are the greatest heroes of the Space Wolves, and the Detachment rule – The Great Wolf Watches – reinforces this by granting a version of Heroic Intervention to all Infantry and Walker units. At the end of the opponent’s Charge phase, any of these units within 3” of an enemy unit can declare a Charge, targeting those enemy units. Space Wolves Terminators also gain a point of Objective Secured, letting them do double duty as objective-clearers and objective-takers.
The Wolves’ Wisdom Enhancement makes the Detachment rule even stronger for one unit, letting them declare a Charge against units within 6”, instead of within 3”. The mere presence of this unit on the battlefield will force the enemies of the Space Wolves to change their plans to account for the extraordinary warriors in their midst.
The Champions of Fenris are often outnumbered on the battlefield, but they have a wealth of experience to ensure that they are never outmatched. For example, the Preytaker’s Eye Stratagem grants an Infantry unit Lethal Hits or Sustained Hits 1, so a Space Wolves player can always tilt the scales in their favour, no matter the foe they’re facing.
Sadly Grotmas is over, but Christmas is tomorrow and GW has a gift for us.
We regret to inform you that there’s no Grotmas Detachment coming tomorrow. On the other hand, it is Christmas – and we have another gift for anyone who visits Warhammer Community tomorrow…
Overall for the armies I play I have the following thoughts:
Like:
Tzeentch Daemons- This is probably my fav for what I play. It is really fluffy and crazy and feels like a Tzeentch thing. I wasn't planning on playing my daemons for a while, but I think I will try to give this one a go sooner rather than later.
CSM - I like this one, and I think if you build around it there is potential for it to be good. I think it is fun and gets the fluff right.
Chaos Knights- I also like this detachment, the idea of a bunch of rabble fighting along side the knights seems fun. Also it is probably better than the crap detachment rule in the index, and allows you to bring scoring chaff if you want to be competitive.
Dislike:
Eldar - Yea this one seems just so vanilla, and is a downgrade from the index (although basically everything is a down grade from that as it is to powerful and probably getting gutted).
Thousand Sons - This one is just bad, has no flavor, is basically just a worse version of the index. I really think this one would have been good if it was all attacks re-roll 1's to hit and wound if in Control area and psyker attacks also get a +1 to wound in the control area. This would support units that the index doesn't, namely all non-psykers, and give the bonus for the psyker attacks as the focus on them. Total miss with the way it is now.
Armies I don't play but the new detachment makes me kind of interested:
Tau- I never really cared for the gundum style models, but I always loved the alien aux. This detachment just seems really neat. If only they had like two more alien units outside of Kroot, or could bring some guard infantry that would be cool.
Dark Eldar - again I like the allies detachments, as it give a fresh way to play. This seems like a cool concept.
Space Marines - I love this one. It is really fluffy, and I love psykers so this is right up my ally. I am seriously thinking of building a small SM army just to use this. I really hope some point in the future CSM gets the equivalent of this, that would rule.
Orks - Ork guard seems awesome, my buddy is planning on using this our next game, so I can't wait to face it.
Overall I think this was mostly a win. It was nice to get some new detachments, and this is the kind of think I hope they do after the codex release is over, put out random new detachments for armies, as I think that is one of the strengths of the detachment system in tenth that they can do this without have to overhaul the entire codex.
My thoughts on the detachments for the armies I play:
Dark Angels: Lion's Blade Task Force: Seems fun if not terribly competitive, but it did get better with the dataslate making both Outriders and Ravenwing Black Knights better. I'll have to give it a try.
Space Marines: Librarius Conclave: Probably not competitive, but could be fun for more casual games. If nothing else, it would be fun to have an excuse to put 6+ Librarians on the table at once!
Imperial Knights: Questor Forgepact: I don't own any AdMech currently, but I do have files to 3d print some Roman-themed AdMech. Personally I think the Noble Lance detachment from the index is still just better though.
Astra Militarum: Bridgehead Strike: I do have a fair amount of 3d printed Scions, so maybe this would give me an excuse to paint them and/or print some more of them. The detachment seems fun but probably nowhere near as good as the Combined Regiment.
Tyranids: Warrior Bioform Onslaught: This detachment has potential, but I personally don't own enough Warriors to make full use of it. Maybe I should get some more? I dunno, I might just stick with Invasion Fleet or Vanguard.
Votann: Hearthband: This detachment is just sad. It would be much better if there were better ways of getting judgment tokens on stuff. I'll skip this one, and perhaps fill out my Votann once they get a new book and hopefully a new wave of models.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Overall, do you consider these detachments to be more flavor, or more competitive... or a even mix of both?
I think the only one that everyone agrees is obviously better or equal to the existing detachments is the Necron one. I think there are a few if you build around them that have potential (like the CSM one), but mostly all of these are out competed by the index/codex detachments for competitive play, and most of these are just fun and flavor for particular builds, with a handful of total duds which are not fun, flavorful, or competitive (see, Thousand Sons).
However I think this is a good thing, as more ways to play not focused on the competitive meta.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Overall, do you consider these detachments to be more flavor, or more competitive... or a even mix of both?
I think most of these are about adding fun and flavor, and mostly they succeeded (see: Thousand Sons as a counter-point). Making a Librarian-focused detachment for Marines, adding new ways to ally, the Bile-themed CSM detachment... and especially what they did with Daemons. They added more FUN to the game, which I think it needed. I'm okay with releasing a month's worth of content that isn't focused on the hyper-competitive meta, for once.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Overall, do you consider these detachments to be more flavor, or more competitive... or a even mix of both?
I think most of these are about adding fun and flavor, and mostly they succeeded (see: Thousand Sons as a counter-point). Making a Librarian-focused detachment for Marines, adding new ways to ally, the Bile-themed CSM detachment... and especially what they did with Daemons. They added more FUN to the game, which I think it needed. I'm okay with releasing a month's worth of content that isn't focused on the hyper-competitive meta, for once.
They should do this more often.
Hear, hear. And I'm agreeing with this as someone who plays in tournaments fairly regularly. Sometimes it's fun to put the less competitive stuff on the table and just roll some dice while making pew pew noises.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Overall, do you consider these detachments to be more flavor, or more competitive... or a even mix of both?
I think most of these are about adding fun and flavor, and mostly they succeeded (see: Thousand Sons as a counter-point). Making a Librarian-focused detachment for Marines, adding new ways to ally, the Bile-themed CSM detachment... and especially what they did with Daemons. They added more FUN to the game, which I think it needed. I'm okay with releasing a month's worth of content that isn't focused on the hyper-competitive meta, for once.
They should do this more often.
Hear, hear. And I'm agreeing with this as someone who plays in tournaments fairly regularly. Sometimes it's fun to put the less competitive stuff on the table and just roll some dice while making pew pew noises.
Yeah. Fun/fluffy-but-suboptimal is what I was hoping for from these. I think most of them probably hit that mark. My disappointment is reserved for the places where they failed to produce something flavorful or at least fun. So like, the craftworld one let me down (for now) because it doesn't really provide me with a new playstyle. It just provides me with a worse version of the index playstyle. The only tricks it really opened up were deepstriking wave serpents and disembarking (but not charging) after vehicles move. And neither of those tricks really do much to change up playstyles because we have a very limited number of units that actually want/need to disembark but not charge. And one of those units is fire dragons who would rather be in a falcon for the rerolls meaning they don't benefit from the deepstriking serpent trick.
Similarly, the Thousand Sons one just doesn't really tell me a story or open up a dramatically different playstyle. It's kind of just a generic kill-more detachment with some slight differences from the index detachment. If Thousand Sons had gotten the librarian detachment instead, I'd be thrilled.
Detachments like the tyranid warrior one have some cool ideas (I like how it potentially helps warrior spam survive long enough to be viable and how it emphasizes the synergy between them and gants), but those ideas largely boil down to kill-more benefits. Which means it's undermined somewhat by other detachments that also provide lethality buffs. If they'd leaned a little bit more into the aspects that make the detachment unique, I think they'd have landed in an even better place. But as-is, the 'nid one is still nice to have for those who happen to have a pile of warrior laying around.
Tyranids* are getting more allies options in 10th than the faction that knows what a peace treaty is. 