New press release from AMG has confirmed that Shatterpoint is getting put on the same back burner, we are not killing this game, honestly guv, as both X Wing and Armada in order for them to focus more heavily on Legion, including new factions.
They should have just focused on Legion from the beginning. Or at the very least it should have been the same scale so there was cross compatibility for the models.
I don't even remember which game this one is/was anymore but I'm not surprised. I anxiously await the next minis game that is slightly bigger with a new hat to be announced at Gencon 2026 thereby meeting the minimal threshold to make it legally and commercially distinct from the multitude of other games that came before it.
I will just keep buying to get everything, focusing on main lines and giving the others some work when needed is probably for the best.
Legion does have a lot of purchase power since you need more kits, why shatterpoint is cheep to start in comparison. We have more players for it, but when a single legion player can buy more kits than like half the shatterpoint campaign we got I always think it’s difficult.
Also the terrain is so good, I’m always surprised it doesn’t come up that often.
insaniak wrote: Shatterpoint was the one with the bigger minis, wasn't it? I doubt there'll be too many people upset.
Statistically, yes... But my point was that every game for a while/a couple in a row fit that bill. The FFG board game started at 25mm ish tyen there was the mass battle one then the skirmish one(s?). Honestly, I didn't keep track. I still have my old WOTC prepaints that I used for my old Saga campaign so I'm not upset but rather just sarcastic.
Yeah, I wasn't addressing that at you, just Shatterpoint was only vaguely on my rader due to being the 'wrong' size.
I also have a large collection of WotC minis, which is why I was sad when Imperial Assault went away, as those were the right size to be compatible so handy for fleshing out some gaps in the WotC range.
likely clearing out everything they had contracted for,
that way stores/distributors wouldn't have time to drop support leaving the last few kits released with little or no buyers as i seem to remember happening when they killed x-wing
(on a more positive note having fewer games to support is a good thing for Atomic Mass since they were never given the increase in staff they would have needed to handle them and I don't think Asmodee seems to have the budget and/or slots with their manufacturers to produce more minis a year eaven if they did given the irregular nature of their current releases)
I decided to stop purchasing stuff for this game a year and half ago. Mostly because I had a gut feeling that the game wouldn't last. I also didn't like the gameplay, despite initially being excited for it.
They'll probably trickle a few releases over the next year or two before shutting it down entirely.
When Shatterpoint started and they killed X-Wing and Armada I saw many folks saying Shatterpoint might kill Legion. Guess it’s the other way around. Shatterpoint didn't appeal to me at all, as it was mainly competitive focused with little regard to the theme, which I found quite strange in a licensed game.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: When Shatterpoint started and they killed X-Wing and Armada I saw many folks saying Shatterpoint might kill Legion. Guess it’s the other way around. Shatterpoint didn't appeal to me at all, as it was mainly competitive focused with little regard to the theme, which I found quite strange in a licensed game.
It's kind of a shame as I feel like the format (small number of heroes/villains + henchmen duking it out) really fits Star Wars.
Fantasy Flight made their share of missteps but it seems like the only time I hear about AMG is when they're closing down more games.
A few places locally to me had Shatterpoint stuff on sale which is never a good sign.
A shame as I liked the concept of a smaller model count SW game. I didn't ever get to try it, although a lot of the reviews of the gameplay were not overly praising.
Tamereth wrote: They should have just focused on Legion from the beginning. Or at the very least it should have been the same scale so there was cross compatibility for the models.
New factions? Maybe we will get the Gungans
That wasn't really an option at the time. Shatterpoint was essentially finished and going into production at the point that Asmodee decided to take Legion, X-Wing & Armada from FFG and hand it over to AMG (whether they wanted them or not). It was designed at the same scale as Marvel Crisis Protocol because that's the scale AMG worked with, cross compatibility with Legion wasn't ever likely to have been considered as they were made by different studios.
As it is, it seems like Legion just has a bigger audience and presumably sells much better, ergo that's where the attention ends up. I enjoy Shatterpoint for what it is and the models are beautiful but it just never seemed to catch fire.
Gungans are pretty much a given at this point, they've done interviews with some very strong hints.
I’ll never forgive them for canning Aramada before they properly explored the Clone Wars era.
X-Wing less so, as being the older game it was already delving into the old EU for new ships. But Armada felt like it looked at its natural home, only for AMG to lob a Molotov through the door,
Tamereth wrote: They should have just focused on Legion from the beginning. Or at the very least it should have been the same scale so there was cross compatibility for the models.
New factions? Maybe we will get the Gungans
That wasn't really an option at the time. Shatterpoint was essentially finished and going into production at the point that Asmodee decided to take Legion, X-Wing & Armada from FFG and hand it over to AMG (whether they wanted them or not). It was designed at the same scale as Marvel Crisis Protocol because that's the scale AMG worked with, cross compatibility with Legion wasn't ever likely to have been considered as they were made by different studios.
As it is, it seems like Legion just has a bigger audience and presumably sells much better, ergo that's where the attention ends up. I enjoy Shatterpoint for what it is and the models are beautiful but it just never seemed to catch fire.
Gungans are pretty much a given at this point, they've done interviews with some very strong hints.
This is always sad, since it always seems they do want to just make great games. And playing MCP we are getting some really weird stuff now that I never would have expected and digging further into the fun little obscure stuff.
And shatter point got some miniatures for things that I would have never expected as well, it’s really cool for display miniature as well for games.
Even beginning with legion before they take over, it seemed like there wasn’t any want to put in stuff that would get people really interested until AMG take over. So it’s kinda weird reading dakka here for me.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’ll never forgive them for canning Aramada before they properly explored the Clone Wars era.
X-Wing less so, as being the older game it was already delving into the old EU for new ships. But Armada felt like it looked at its natural home, only for AMG to lob a Molotov through the door,
Seeing how the 2nd hand market is still not cooling down on Armada prices and 3d prints are showing up everywhere it's hard to understand how the game apparently sold badly.
Someone needs to create a a viable sustainable long therm business miniatures/wargame model that does not rely solely on the constant churn of new minis.
NAVARRO wrote: Someone needs to create a a viable sustainable long therm business miniatures/wargame model that does not rely solely on the constant churn of new minis.
I think it's probably safe for a good while yet. People still play MCP even if it's not seeing the highs of the Covid years. The Marvel well isn't quite as poisoned as the Star Wars one yet either.
Shatterpoint was controversial from the off. The Legion players didn't want it for obvious reasons, the bigger scale wasn't appealing to the GW crowd, it was too much of a hobby project for most board gamers. All bad mojo combined seemingly made a lot of even the people who would have bought into it stop and go "hm I'm going to wait and see how it shakes out..." which only hurt the sales further.
MCP's main issue right now seems to be stock, but as far as controversies go... well, you could have much worse ones. Not frontloading the game with all the A-Listers and instead having a mix of the A/B/C/D-listers throughot probably points to a plan for some longevity too.
I'd think given the challenges of trying to reinvigorate Legion and keep it alive, it certainly makes sense for them not to be wasting time and money on a game that never took off. As I overheard one of the guys working at my FLGS say last year, nobody ever seems to touch their Star Wars shelves and nobody they talk to is excited about Star Wars. The hype cycle has already come and gone and been milked pretty well by previous game releases.
Shatterpoint always felt like a weird game to me. Legion already exists for people who want their SW infantry game fix. Shatterpoint's selling point as a more character-focussed system was fine in principle, but I remember reading the rules for it, wading through pages and pages of arcane, convoluted combat resolution stuff and just going "nope".
It was expensive, run by a company that doesn't have a great history of keeping games going (themselves owned by a company with the same reputation) and really didn't have that instant playability that made games like X-Wing and Imperial Assault, for example, so easy to get into.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’ll never forgive them for canning Aramada before they properly explored the Clone Wars era.
X-Wing less so, as being the older game it was already delving into the old EU for new ships. But Armada felt like it looked at its natural home, only for AMG to lob a Molotov through the door,
Seeing how the 2nd hand market is still not cooling down on Armada prices and 3d prints are showing up everywhere it's hard to understand how the game apparently sold badly.
Supply issues meant stores and communities had a hard time building or keeping groups. Demand was there, but stock wasn't.
Shatterpoint has a really wide range available already, and if they're going to keep reprinting it for a while, then it's getting much better treatment than Armada did (killed it overnight with noticeably unfinished GAR and CIS rosters and zero reprints). Launching it with only one mission to play probably wasn't smart, in hindsight.
Starwars deserves a lot better then this cycle of start new game, new scale, kill it and start again.I learned my lesson with the amazing Xwing... Theres no long therm planning here. Just milk it as fast as possible then paint the cow in another colour and do it again.
Dont really see it as a viable investment for me, at this point just collect some random kits to paint and ignore the rest.
To think with that IP they could have a market leader of a game and minis. Missed chance.
Kinda feels like that’s always been Star Wars’ fate when it comes to gaming. A lack of thought beyond “if we license it, they will buy”.
X-Wing 1st Edition had its flaws (turrets too good, too steep a learning curve without a patient tutor), but was a terrific game. And I always appreciated the models all being of the same scale.
OK, playing chase the card would’ve sucked if A) your gaming group was strict on no card, no upgrade and/or B) Your collecting preference/budget didn’t extend to One Of Everything. And it was pretty scummy to offer a fix for drastically underperforming ships, but only if you Bought This Really Big Thing/Bought This Boxed Set.
Overall, said flaws aside? It was a largely affordable game, and when against an opponent of similar skill, bloody good fun.
I sold up before 2nd Ed, so can’t fairly comment further. But I understand it put some backs up with upgrade kits. Also, I wasn’t personally as invested in the Old EU ships as others. K-Wing in particular looks really bad, and not at all Star Wars.
But it had a pretty substantial player base, and was priced such that those who enjoy Star Wars, and appreciate reasonably priced and well detailed ship replicas were buying too.
NAVARRO wrote: Starwars deserves a lot better then this cycle of start new game, new scale, kill it and start again.
But its two incomplete sides in the fiction. hat means game wise you run out of new stuff to sell quickly. So unless it is more of a historicals style (if have my army and I will try different rulesets) the money isn't there long term for a big company.
NAVARRO wrote: Starwars deserves a lot better then this cycle of start new game, new scale, kill it and start again.I learned my lesson with the amazing Xwing... Theres no long therm planning here. Just milk it as fast as possible then paint the cow in another colour and do it again.
Dont really see it as a viable investment for me, at this point just collect some random kits to paint and ignore the rest.
To think with that IP they could have a market leader of a game and minis. Missed chance.
Legion is 8 years old at this point and the scale has remained the same throughout, despite moving between studios. Cards have obviously been invalidated in the 2.0 launch but I don't think 7 or so years is unreasonable as an edition cycle. Some of those models from launch are still available (albeit all the soft-plastics will get phased out for harder alternatives but that's generally considered a big upgrade).
It obviously came at the expense of Imperial Assault but that was a very different game and market, with different expectations of the miniature quality.
Shatterpoint didn't replace Legion (and seemingly wasn't ever intended to) and the nature of its design meant that consistent scale between the two wasn't ever going to be an option (blame Asmodee if you wanted it to be).
Which is precisely why I’m surprised Legions is continuing.
The disparity between Imperial and Rebel when it comes to starships is barely there. Ground forces? Much less so, as Rebels were less about standing battles. I hesitate to call them commandos, but it was more that hit and fade guerrilla style attacks. Death by a thousand cuts, rather than everyone in the middle for a big old punch up.
Even on Hoth, the only real land battle we see on screen? The Rebels are only fighting a holding action. Doing what they can to buy time for the evacuation rather than any real hope of seeing off The Empire entirely.
Shatterpoint is really fun. Definitely my personal preference over Legion and sad to see it go. That said, it's a game you need VERY little to enjoy. I felt like I had a very full collection with only a few purchases, which is probably part of the problem with it.
Just to do the Star Wars game opinion round up:
X-Wing 2.0 paid for the excesses of 1.0. Shame as if it had transitioned to a faction focused model and slipped in prequel stuff sooner it might have worked. It did predate the prequel reappraisal crowd a bit though.
Imperial Assault was a board game with a tacked on vs mode that was terrible. The board game largely ran its course ending in you attacking the Emperor on Coruscant. It was also just horribly exploitative. It's a good game but I have no love for the product.
Armada really suffered from being 2 factions with the Empire being WAY WAY cooler at this scale. It never felt like it really took off, even if it was easily one FFG's best. Definitely would have worked better with the Prequel era factions in place.
Funny enough, that's also an issue initially with Legion, which was really bolstered by its Clone Wars starter. I do get why people like this one and I should probably give it another try. Ultimately I found it kind of gamey and didn't implement characters well, which really made Rebels feel kind of forced. I'll probably look into the changes but I'll probably just continue to play Shatterpoint for a Star Wars fix and let something like Warmachine or Gundam take its place instead.
The disparity between Imperial and Rebel when it comes to starships is barely there. Ground forces? Much less so, as Rebels were less about standing battles. I hesitate to call them commandos, but it was more that hit and fade guerrilla style attacks. Death by a thousand cuts, rather than everyone in the middle for a big old punch up.
Even on Hoth, the only real land battle we see on screen? The Rebels are only fighting a holding action. Doing what they can to buy time for the evacuation rather than any real hope of seeing off The Empire entirely.
It's reflected in their playstyles in Legion at least (though I'd argue that Endor also counts, ridiculous as it is and those fuzzy little buggers are in Legion as a Rebel sub-faction). Scarif works well as a Legion appropriate scenario. Bunch of stuff from associated media like the comics/novels.
Not to mention that there's the whole other side of the coin with the Clone Wars era armies, which are much more obvious examples of set-piece battles.
Billicus wrote: Legion has always seemed more like a board game adaptation of the Star Wars Battlefront video games than any attempt at adapting the films.
There's definitely a lot of inspiration there with a lot of the weapons pulled directly.
Any licensed product has a natural endpoint. If you don't directly own the IP your stuck making things that already exist in the universe, once you run out you're done.
Shatterpoint is weird in that I get they wanted a game that played like MCP but for Star Wars...but they already had Legion.
Shame. Shatterpoint locally had a bit more traction. Although the 'new' Legion has some interest it's mostly similar to the first run and so is a mature game on arrival.
But all games have a live so there we are - but there are still a bunch of characters that we haven't seen.
LunarSol wrote: Imperial Assault was a board game with a tacked on vs mode that was terrible. The board game largely ran its course ending in you attacking the Emperor on Coruscant. It was also just horribly exploitative. It's a good game but I have no love for the product.
1, I'll disagree that the vs mode was terrible
2, Can't really say it was complete, to my mind, when we never got Yoda or Ewoks in the game
3, How was it horribly exploitative?
LunarSol wrote: Imperial Assault was a board game with a tacked on vs mode that was terrible. The board game largely ran its course ending in you attacking the Emperor on Coruscant. It was also just horribly exploitative. It's a good game but I have no love for the product.
1, I'll disagree that the vs mode was terrible
2, Can't really say it was complete, to my mind, when we never got Yoda or Ewoks in the game
3, How was it horribly exploitative?
I was mostly in it for the board game element, where half the characters were represented by tokens unless you bought wildly overpriced expansion packs.
Usually I'd say it's always a shame to lose a game. But looking at the wide variety of characters I'm not even sure they're ending the game as such, versus just running out of new things to add and thereby completing it.
I blame the sequel trilogy characters. The moment those were announced it was clear they didn't have good choices anymore. And what else is left to add? Jar Jar? Random cantina alien that showed up in a movie for two seconds but got eleventeen EU novels to flesh him out?
If AMG keeps up the rule support and restocks existing kits, I'd say Shatterpoint isn't in a terrible place. Restocks really seem like their core issue. I haven't seen Deadpool in stock since before Deadpool and Wolverine released. Nor Hulk. If they can't even satisfy demand for popular characters or ones that tie in with new Marvel movies, it's probably for the best if they don't keep going the way they have been.
Looks like this is to head off the announcement of a new MCP based co-op board game thing. Seems kind of cool. The ultimate encounters in MCP are neat design space. The internet is of course very angry.
I guess that explains the Shatterpoint proportions on some of the more recent Legion plastics.
Particularly the saber thickness and posing of some recent and upcoming expansion stuff seems more fitting to Shatterpoint.
My thought is they rescaled some in-progress sculpts when they got a heads-up on this, rather than lose the design time & cost.
Oh FFS!
You can't claim you don't have staff to support multiple game lines, then split off into new game lines!
Any resources used to design, sculpt, and playtest could have been used to expand the Shatterpoint line, as well as the MCP lines.
I am guessing they are seeing the end of the road for MCP coming and have already pivoted the resources.
Delaying announcing the death of MCP to prevent stock rotting on the shelves, especially after the recent Starter affiliation boxes like X-Men & Spider-foes.
This is way more of an expansion of MCP's Ultimate Encounter designs, just sold in a way that stops them from getting in trouble with the higher ups for wasting time by having an actual product behind it. This is definitely not replacing MCP in any real way unless its somehow the next Zombicide.
Armada really suffered from being 2 factions with the Empire being WAY WAY cooler at this scale. It never felt like it really took off, even if it was easily one FFG's best. Definitely would have worked better with the Prequel era factions in place.
Was the combat balanced well between the fighter/bombers and the capital ships? I only observed a very short demo so didn't have any real experience with it sadly. I was hoping that it might have been a dynamic similar to in 40k when playing an elite army like Marines vs a horde force like IG or orks in that both were viable and down to playstyle preferences. I had imagined that the Empire would typically get only a single capital ship like an ISD typically but hordes of TIEs vs rebel fleets with multiple smaller ships but more elite but numerically inferior fighters instead (with variations on that theme coming out with subsequent releases).
Armada really suffered from being 2 factions with the Empire being WAY WAY cooler at this scale. It never felt like it really took off, even if it was easily one FFG's best. Definitely would have worked better with the Prequel era factions in place.
Was the combat balanced well between the fighter/bombers and the capital ships? I only observed a very short demo so didn't have any real experience with it sadly. I was hoping that it might have been a dynamic similar to in 40k when playing an elite army like Marines vs a horde force like IG or orks in that both were viable and down to playstyle preferences. I had imagined that the Empire would typically get only a single capital ship like an ISD typically but hordes of TIEs vs rebel fleets with multiple smaller ships but more elite but numerically inferior fighters instead (with variations on that theme coming out with subsequent releases).
I'm honestly not sure. It's not a meta I really followed though I kind of remember it struggled with the fighter/ship balance. I agree with your take but I don't feel like that's the way the game went. A lot of games though kind of ended up being Empire vs Empire that I saw. I think partially because even if a rebel swarm worked, the fighters were extremely unimpressive and unpainted sculpts. Personally I always preferred Epic X-Wing (even over regular X-Wing) but FFG never supported it particularly well.
Yeah, the faction match in any particular game is always up for grab and Imperials fighting each other whether pre or post Endor has long been part of the canon. Since I never played, I can't speak though as to how much fun it actually was within the constraints of the game mechanics obviously.
I liked Epic X-Wing even before it was a thing as I'd run my own homebrew games of something similar at the FLGS but the mechanics got slow and clunky at that model count. It could go tolerably fast if you limited the upgrades for each ship though.
Spoiler:
Some of my favorite memories from gencon back in the day were playing in mega-scale Star Wars games run by a fan group with 6ft Star Destroyers and squadrons of Micro-Machine fighters on microphone stands (this was in the mid to late 1990s long before FFG's Star Wars license). I had hoped this game would have emulated that feel at a more realistic scale and price point but I was souring on FFG's treatment of the license at the time with X-wing's new edition as well as things I was hearing about this game (and price point).
I think it's probably safe for a good while yet. People still play MCP even if it's not seeing the highs of the Covid years. The Marvel well isn't quite as poisoned as the Star Wars one yet either.
Shatterpoint was controversial from the off. The Legion players didn't want it for obvious reasons, the bigger scale wasn't appealing to the GW crowd, it was too much of a hobby project for most board gamers. All bad mojo combined seemingly made a lot of even the people who would have bought into it stop and go "hm I'm going to wait and see how it shakes out..." which only hurt the sales further.
MCP's main issue right now seems to be stock, but as far as controversies go... well, you could have much worse ones. Not frontloading the game with all the A-Listers and instead having a mix of the A/B/C/D-listers throughot probably points to a plan for some longevity too.
kinda. i played very intensively for a long time. and the game has alot of problems that are just no addressed.
and the community around us DIED, now that isnt unsual, alot of communities die. but what i found is, near me, the community is the same. if i went t a tournament 50 miles away in either direction, it was same people just traveling
That got boring.
The game isnt dying yet, but condensing into a core of very dedicated players.
I think it's probably safe for a good while yet. People still play MCP even if it's not seeing the highs of the Covid years. The Marvel well isn't quite as poisoned as the Star Wars one yet either.
Shatterpoint was controversial from the off. The Legion players didn't want it for obvious reasons, the bigger scale wasn't appealing to the GW crowd, it was too much of a hobby project for most board gamers. All bad mojo combined seemingly made a lot of even the people who would have bought into it stop and go "hm I'm going to wait and see how it shakes out..." which only hurt the sales further.
MCP's main issue right now seems to be stock, but as far as controversies go... well, you could have much worse ones. Not frontloading the game with all the A-Listers and instead having a mix of the A/B/C/D-listers throughot probably points to a plan for some longevity too.
kinda. i played very intensively for a long time. and the game has alot of problems that are just no addressed.
and the community around us DIED, now that isnt unsual, alot of communities die. but what i found is, near me, the community is the same. if i went t a tournament 50 miles away in either direction, it was same people just traveling
That got boring.
The game isnt dying yet, but condensing into a core of very dedicated players.
I would say that sounds like a lot of games, that are niche and kept alive through dedicated players. Mordheim is just that. The game is doomed when fans destroy it. If you have the minis you can pull it out and teach new players, and it’s what’s kept the game alive and better than ever.
When Xwing and armada went away it was barely talked about, armada wasn’t really it I think. And Xwing was barely even getting views on YouTube which is fairly dire. Much less views than painting videos for shatterpoint get, and even significantly less than battle reports seem to, bit MCP does much better it looks like. So it seems there is interest there for shatterpoint at least.
NAVARRO wrote: Someone needs to create a a viable sustainable long therm business miniatures/wargame model that does not rely solely on the constant churn of new minis.
So... the collapse of capitalism?
No actually, unironically, I think that's just about what it'd take. There's a reason tech companies dig their fingers into planned obsolescence as much as they can possibly get away with. See Kill Team delving into Magic the Gathering-style rotating formats to prevent you from just sitting on the same models for too long.
If you guys could convince your government to give quality miniature games public funding so that they could pivot more towards stability, I'd be all for it. But it's so unlikely that even just writing out that sentence feels like a meme!
I'm a big believer in a game isn't dead if people are playing it. I do think though that these sorts of games with lots of special dice and counters and cards are a lot harder to "keep alive" for longer periods. But in the era of 3D printing, really any game can be kept going with dedicated fans. Having support from a company is nice but it's not needed.
But I think what a lot of people of course mean is "fewer people in my local area will play it, so playing it will require much more effort on my part" which is of course totally fair.
Da Boss wrote: I'm a big believer in a game isn't dead if people are playing it. I do think though that these sorts of games with lots of special dice and counters and cards are a lot harder to "keep alive" for longer periods. But in the era of 3D printing, really any game can be kept going with dedicated fans. Having support from a company is nice but it's not needed.
But I think what a lot of people of course mean is "fewer people in my local area will play it, so playing it will require much more effort on my part" which is of course totally fair.
These games usually have a dice conversion of some type, so that’s more a theoretical thing that pops up on places like dakka.
I actually think the modern gaming culture is the worst thing for these games, it really creates a problem getting started and getting healthy community’s.
We even see it with games like Mordheim, where I post for weeks(sometimes a month with table work in progress shots.) that we doing a campaign, and people do the whole I just don’t know if I want to buy miniatures for it. Then 5 months into a campaign they suddenly feel ready to commit after being there watching most weekends feeling left out.
Which is actually I think leads into the capitalism issues above.
Star Wars shattererpoint has expensive miniatures, but is a cheap game to play. But people focus on the per miniature price to a extreame. Which means these games are left in a weird place for making money. They ether create ways to milk players to buy more, or they struggle after the first wave, or hopefully can create multiple waves.
MCP I think ironically got a lot of traction with boardgame groups wanting the game, that where not part of the wargaming hobby in these more modern times.
NAVARRO wrote: Someone needs to create a a viable sustainable long therm business miniatures/wargame model that does not rely solely on the constant churn of new minis.
So... the collapse of capitalism?
That would certainly help.
More realistically, though, the alternatives to miniature churn are -
- player churn (constantly recruiting enough new players that buy new armies to get started),
- a subscription service (providing some sort of ongoing benefit so that existing players keep playing to play the game)
- paid organised play (which requires enormous infrastructure to be widespread enough to be actually profitable)
There's no realistic way to keep a miniatures game going long term without people continually paying for it.
Stuff like this, and Star Wars mini games in general as someone alluded to earlier, really makes me look at GW’s stewardship of the license for Middle Earth/LotR gaming IP in a whole different light. Going on near 25 years this year, I believe.
Now likely the studio is split between star wars and Marvel but dropping a game from support and immediately starting a new one is an interesting choice
nels1031 wrote: Stuff like this, and Star Wars mini games in general as someone alluded to earlier, really makes me look at GW’s stewardship of the license for Middle Earth/LotR gaming IP in a whole different light. Going on near 25 years this year, I believe.
GW have killed several games off in that time, it’s probably just that lord of the rings is quite profitable at times. And GW can really afford the downtimes. It’s also a mass battle game at its heart so new players do drop money into it to get established.
People shouldn't get taken in too much by all that Asmodee PR speak. All this talk about needing staff to do this, and assigning staff to do that, it's easy to forget after hearing that for long enough that it's all nonsense and spin.
Successful business operations always have sufficient staff because successful business operations fund their own staffing requirements. If the McDonalds down the street starts getting twice the demand for hamburgers on the late shift, they don't turn people away every night because they don't have enough staff, they use the extra money the doubled demand makes them to give more shifts and then pocket the rest as profit.
If Shatterpoint made sufficient revenue it would be worth having all the staff required to keep it going. But the reality is, it's not a staffing issue it's that the game doesn't make enough money to spend money making it. It's never really a staffing issue. MCP gets more new products because they project it will earn more from new products than other products and will recoup the costs of initial investment.
Putting out multiple product lines for the same IP when the principal reason anyone engages with any of those product lines is BECAUSE OF the IP doesn't make a lot of sense if those products clash, like Legion and Shatterpoint do. They're reaching into each other's pocket. Shatterpoint is not returning on investment and it only hurts their other Star Wars miniatures game, which is at least doing better relatively.
They just never say obvious stuff like, "We're discontinuing this game because it doesn't make enough MONEY." But that's all it ever is.
Geifer wrote: Usually I'd say it's always a shame to lose a game. But looking at the wide variety of characters I'm not even sure they're ending the game as such, versus just running out of new things to add and thereby completing it.
I blame the sequel trilogy characters. The moment those were announced it was clear they didn't have good choices anymore. And what else is left to add? Jar Jar? Random cantina alien that showed up in a movie for two seconds but got eleventeen EU novels to flesh him out?
If AMG keeps up the rule support and restocks existing kits, I'd say Shatterpoint isn't in a terrible place. Restocks really seem like their core issue. I haven't seen Deadpool in stock since before Deadpool and Wolverine released. Nor Hulk. If they can't even satisfy demand for popular characters or ones that tie in with new Marvel movies, it's probably for the best if they don't keep going the way they have been.
It's absolutely not due to a lack of character options to add to the game; we haven't even seen any version of Yoda or Palpatine. Older Kenobi. Jabba's crew. Tuskans. Gungans. Geonoshans. Royal Guard. Anything from Andor. Pykes. Anything from Solo. Just scratching the surface there.
Well, next time I'll order somewhere where they sell Legion, I'll probably get anything I've had an eye on just before that too is dropped by AMG. Which, following this announcement, is not something I expect to happen very soon, but simultaneously feels like it could happen quite suddenly if they decide to chase something else. When Shatterpoint was released, people thought it would herald the end of Legion; this is an interesting turn of events in that sense. No idea how popular Shatterpoint ever was, but I'm not surprised they won't keep supporting both. Wonder if they'd launch a smaller skirmish variant for Legion at some point instead now.
Armada really suffered from being 2 factions with the Empire being WAY WAY cooler at this scale. It never felt like it really took off, even if it was easily one FFG's best. Definitely would have worked better with the Prequel era factions in place.
Was the combat balanced well between the fighter/bombers and the capital ships? I only observed a very short demo so didn't have any real experience with it sadly. I was hoping that it might have been a dynamic similar to in 40k when playing an elite army like Marines vs a horde force like IG or orks in that both were viable and down to playstyle preferences. I had imagined that the Empire would typically get only a single capital ship like an ISD typically but hordes of TIEs vs rebel fleets with multiple smaller ships but more elite but numerically inferior fighters instead (with variations on that theme coming out with subsequent releases).
It is still played at my club. I was all excited - until I saw that the ship scale wasn't consistent which for some reason just killed it for me. The Rebels cap ships also seemed ridiculosity up gunned (stuff like corvettes shooting star destroyers). I get they wanted to be able to have two sides have a stand up battle, but the background and fluff didn't seem to support it.
Armada's brilliant. Those big Imperial ships do dominate in straight fights but the Rebels got their own answers to them fairly quickly in the form of the various marks of Mon Calamari cruiser and later the Starhawk which is a beast. Besides which the asymmetric engagements work great because of the mechanics of shooting first then moving, allowing skilled players to keep little ships out of the worst danger or just generally keep away from big slow moving death hulks and pick on weaker targets / play the objective. It's well worth playing and there's lots of independent support now for ships, cards etc on etsy and the like.
Was the combat balanced well between the fighter/bombers and the capital ships? I only observed a very short demo so didn't have any real experience with it sadly. I was hoping that it might have been a dynamic similar to in 40k when playing an elite army like Marines vs a horde force like IG or orks in that both were viable and down to playstyle preferences. I had imagined that the Empire would typically get only a single capital ship like an ISD typically but hordes of TIEs vs rebel fleets with multiple smaller ships but more elite but numerically inferior fighters instead (with variations on that theme coming out with subsequent releases).
It is still played at my club. I was all excited - until I saw that the ship scale wasn't consistent which for some reason just killed it for me. The Rebels cap ships also seemed ridiculosity up gunned (stuff like corvettes shooting star destroyers). I get they wanted to be able to have two sides have a stand up battle, but the background and fluff didn't seem to support it.
Thanks. Could you explain the (lack of) scale consistency a bit more? Is the issue that they weren't 1:1 with each other? Or that the scales were wildly inconsistent with smaller ships being actually bigger than some others on occasion? I'd be ok without exact scale consistency as long as the scales were relatively consistent (i.e. a Corellian corvette is noticeably smaller than a Nebulon frigate which is noticeably smaller than an A and so on). I understand that things need to be adapted for a different medium as long as the feel remains the same.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Wonder if they'd launch a smaller skirmish variant for Legion at some point instead now.
There's been a skirmish level variant for Legion around for years (Spec Ops). It's just print and play and is very much a side project but it gets updated and new teams added every now and again. Very much Legion's answer to Kill Team. This year we're also getting Legion's version of Apocalypse level games at the other end of the spectrum.
Billicus wrote: Armada's brilliant. Those big Imperial ships do dominate in straight fights but the Rebels got their own answers to them fairly quickly in the form of the various marks of Mon Calamari cruiser and later the Starhawk which is a beast. Besides which the asymmetric engagements work great because of the mechanics of shooting first then moving, allowing skilled players to keep little ships out of the worst danger or just generally keep away from big slow moving death hulks and pick on weaker targets / play the objective. It's well worth playing and there's lots of independent support now for ships, cards etc on etsy and the like.
True. I'm still active in the old Fasa Star Trek starship combat game and that's been out of print since the late 80s. The advent of 3d printing has been a godsend to that fandom.
Was the combat balanced well between the fighter/bombers and the capital ships? I only observed a very short demo so didn't have any real experience with it sadly. I was hoping that it might have been a dynamic similar to in 40k when playing an elite army like Marines vs a horde force like IG or orks in that both were viable and down to playstyle preferences. I had imagined that the Empire would typically get only a single capital ship like an ISD typically but hordes of TIEs vs rebel fleets with multiple smaller ships but more elite but numerically inferior fighters instead (with variations on that theme coming out with subsequent releases).
It is still played at my club. I was all excited - until I saw that the ship scale wasn't consistent which for some reason just killed it for me. The Rebels cap ships also seemed ridiculosity up gunned (stuff like corvettes shooting star destroyers). I get they wanted to be able to have two sides have a stand up battle, but the background and fluff didn't seem to support it.
For me as someone with a passing knowledge of Star Wars (basically only episodes I-VI and a couple of PC games) the scale is at least good enough or how I'd expect it. Also if a Corvette becomes dangerous for an imperial Star Destroyer it's due to a lot of combos and good piloting and because it has three additional corvettes that hurt the Star Destroyer already .
You don't want to face a Front arc of an imperial ship with a rebel ship, and with rebels you usually try to outflank or use your superior fighter squadrons. And that’s basically how I expect it. (Of course you can have a Match with the Home 1 against a couple of Armitens cruisers which turns that around...)
Thanks. Could you explain the (lack of) scale consistency a bit more? Is the issue that they weren't 1:1 with each other? Or that the scales were wildly inconsistent with smaller ships being actually bigger than some others on occasion? I'd be ok without exact scale consistency as long as the scales were relatively consistent (i.e. a Corellian corvette is noticeably smaller than a Nebulon frigate which is noticeably smaller than an A and so on). I understand that things need to be adapted for a different medium as long as the feel remains the same.
Armada has always had a sliding scale. The bigger the ship, the more shrunk down it is. Basically required due to the size of Star Destroyers, but its definitely not a game that is "to scale".
As an aside, I don't think Epic X-Wing is too bad of a time sink as long as each side takes a huge ship. I also really like it as a 2v2 game since setting the dials is all simultaneous.
Armada has always had a sliding scale. The bigger the ship, the more shrunk down it is. Basically required due to the size of Star Destroyers, but its definitely not a game that is "to scale".
Just from a quick web search, I found this image and hopefully its from the actual game as it was also on the fan wiki for the system. I'm ok with this sliding scale. Like I said, I understand that some things need to be adjusted for a new medium and what works on screen or in a video game isn't automatically feasible or even necessarily preferable on the physical tabletop. Ymmv.
Yeah, none of it would practically work if things were to scale. SW ships have always been unfathomably large. That was kind of the whole hook from the beginning of ANH after all and showcasing new feats of scale was a driving force moving forward. I'm sure a lot of that was a result of the ships being physical models and modelers loving the ability to showcase relative size with their craft.
Now likely the studio is split between star wars and Marvel but dropping a game from support and immediately starting a new one is an interesting choice
The comments were absolutey shredding them for the BS.
Depends on who's got the license. As Nels said above, GW has had Middle-Earth for going on 30 years now. Technically it's the second longest continuously in production game they've ever made.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Depends on who's got the license. As Nels said above, GW has had Middle-Earth for going on 30 years now. Technically it's the second longest continuously in production game they've ever made.
Honestly, It is kinda of shocking it's still in production. I know there was a point after the Hobbit movies where everyone thought it was soon to be killed....but nope! Still around. Frankly I do think it's a testament to how good the game is overall.
Also, might want to pick up some one the Shatterpoint terrain.
It sounds on par with X-Wing. No new product after Kylo and friends. Probably a couple balance passes to keep people playing until it cools off. It's done, but they'll reheat the leftovers.
And honestly, I'm kind of fine with that. I'm not sure I've played a game where I hit a "I don't want new product" wall as fast as SP, somewhat to the game's credit. I didn't need more X-Wing stuff either and in the case of both games, I should really do a better job of playing them more often.
LunarSol wrote: It sounds on par with X-Wing. No new product after Kylo and friends. Probably a couple balance passes to keep people playing until it cools off. It's done, but they'll reheat the leftovers.
Let the past game die. Kill it if you have to. That’s the only way to become the customer you were meant to be.
Geifer wrote: Usually I'd say it's always a shame to lose a game. But looking at the wide variety of characters I'm not even sure they're ending the game as such, versus just running out of new things to add and thereby completing it.
I blame the sequel trilogy characters. The moment those were announced it was clear they didn't have good choices anymore. And what else is left to add? Jar Jar? Random cantina alien that showed up in a movie for two seconds but got eleventeen EU novels to flesh him out?
If AMG keeps up the rule support and restocks existing kits, I'd say Shatterpoint isn't in a terrible place. Restocks really seem like their core issue. I haven't seen Deadpool in stock since before Deadpool and Wolverine released. Nor Hulk. If they can't even satisfy demand for popular characters or ones that tie in with new Marvel movies, it's probably for the best if they don't keep going the way they have been.
It's absolutely not due to a lack of character options to add to the game; we haven't even seen any version of Yoda or Palpatine. Older Kenobi. Jabba's crew. Tuskans. Gungans. Geonoshans. Royal Guard. Anything from Andor. Pykes. Anything from Solo. Just scratching the surface there.
All those prequel era Jedi probably mind tricked me into thinking we already got all that's worth getting.
Reading AMG's statement, I may not be the only weak-minded fool so afflicted.
They had to take Palpatine out of Legion so I didn't expect him here. I was hoping to see Yoda with some Wookies and even without Palpatine its super weird not to have the Royal Guard as models in the game.
I had to block that channel. They have some super insightful, but the overall channel sustains itself on rage bait. Super interesting stuff, but its not constructive and if you follow it for a while it turns into an exercise in "what's wrong with everything".
LunarSol wrote: I had to block that channel. They have some super insightful, but the overall channel sustains itself on rage bait. Super interesting stuff, but its not constructive and if you follow it for a while it turns into an exercise in "what's wrong with everything".
I noticed they often don’t know much about games that seem outside there interests, which can be worrying for a game store. I think they just jump on news quickly to get it out there. But it hasn’t been useful at all for any actual news.
LunarSol wrote: I had to block that channel. They have some super insightful, but the overall channel sustains itself on rage bait. Super interesting stuff, but its not constructive and if you follow it for a while it turns into an exercise in "what's wrong with everything".
No idea as the all seeing Al-Gor-Y'thm served up the video after my earlier image search. They seemed salty (for good reason IMO given their perspective the Nth time around) but not to the point of rage bait. Admittedly, I didn't subscribe or even watch any more vidoes. This one popped up next and I'm listening to it now to catch up on the details.
Yeah, that's why I said something. They popped up on my feed and I found their insight genuinely interesting but the algorithm kept feeding me their stuff and its just all the same sky is falling engagement farming. I quickly found it turned into another "why you shouldn't enjoy things" glut in my feed and decided I just needed to block it.
LunarSol wrote: Yeah, that's why I said something. They popped up on my feed and I found their insight genuinely interesting but the algorithm kept feeding me their stuff and its just all the same sky is falling engagement farming. I quickly found it turned into another "why you shouldn't enjoy things" glut in my feed and decided I just needed to block it.
A year ago they got bad. And they are REALLY smug about it. and they LOVE to insult games they dont play.
I cant remember what video, but they said you shouldnt let pople play dead games or games you dont carry in the store because they are wasting space.
So basically they're like half of gamers and not pretending to be anything more? As a subniche community,we've been a catty bunch since the old bbs days.
Well I just cannot imagine the frustrating process of these short lived war-games that retailers have to endure... This is not like a card game you can dump on the table after you buy them. You have to buy, assemble, paint etc and that takes time... but life time is not something these games have so what is the point? How can a retailer invest in this, another time, and "convince" clients its different now?
NAVARRO wrote: Well I just cannot imagine the frustrating process of these short lived war-games that retailers have to endure... This is not like a card game you can dump on the table after you buy them. You have to buy, assemble, paint etc and that takes time... but life time is not something these games have so what is the point? How can a retailer invest in this, another time, and "convince" clients its different now?
The short answer is: They can't.
The longer answer is that it works both ways. In most cases, games are only short lived because they don't sustain the sales to keep them going. That's partly from stores being unwilling to justify the investment and shelf space, and partly from gamers being unwilling to venture outside the box for fear that the game won't last.
And so the lion's share of the market remains with GW, as the 'safe' choice.
LunarSol wrote: I had to block that channel. They have some super insightful, but the overall channel sustains itself on rage bait. Super interesting stuff, but its not constructive and if you follow it for a while it turns into an exercise in "what's wrong with everything".
I blocked them as well, any store that runs a Patreon makes me automatically wary of any business insights they have. However my main complaint with them from the few videos of theirs that I have watched, is that they were full of false or misleading information put out as facts when it came to discussion around any game that wasn't 40k and the obvious low effort rage bait.
If their entire "schtick" is that they are hobby professionals giving information from the business owner's point of view, and want to get paid Patreon money to do it, I feel like they have an obligation to do the smallest amount of research into what they discuss so that they aren't misleading people or spreading false information.
The idea of games lasting "forever" hasn't really been a thing in ages. When there was no real competition it was one thing, but now every product has a shelf life with even GW needing to replace stuff with modern resculpts as competing studios attempt to surpass them.
I play a lot of these games and honestly, keeping up with them takes up far less time and money than a single 40k army. Trying them out and spending time on the ones I really like has been super entertaining. Maybe MCP will die next year. Doesn't change the fact that it's been my most played game of the last 6+ years of gaming. I've played substantially more games of Shatterpoint than Legion and invested far less. I was looking at what it would take to modernize my Rebels and its about half of what I have in Shatterpoint stuff just for a single force.
Retail hasn't been able to just leave product on the shelf and hope someone buys it someday since online shopping became a thing. You have to put new things on the shelf, drop the stuff that doesn't sell and discount it to fund new product. Trying to sell people on the "forever" can really only work with 40k, and even then its something of a fantasy that people get burned on in about 3 years at most these days.
NAVARRO wrote: Well I just cannot imagine the frustrating process of these short lived war-games that retailers have to endure... This is not like a card game you can dump on the table after you buy them. You have to buy, assemble, paint etc and that takes time... but life time is not something these games have so what is the point? How can a retailer invest in this, another time, and "convince" clients its different now?
The short answer is: They can't.
The longer answer is that it works both ways. In most cases, games are only short lived because they don't sustain the sales to keep them going. That's partly from stores being unwilling to justify the investment and shelf space, and partly from gamers being unwilling to venture outside the box for fear that the game won't last.
And so the lion's share of the market remains with GW, as the 'safe' choice.
this is actually a thing I notice in Aus, half the games these content creators really like are dead or didn’t even start here for so many reasons. Sometimes it’s stores, sometimes they can’t even get enough for demand and it fizzle out. This is sort of big enough to be big news in the wider hobby, but small enough to be a difficult product to produce.
I also think so many stores really use players as advertising, and running games. I guess I’m also lucky our local store is happy when we playing anything and he will join in if he can.
LunarSol wrote: I had to block that channel. They have some super insightful, but the overall channel sustains itself on rage bait. Super interesting stuff, but its not constructive and if you follow it for a while it turns into an exercise in "what's wrong with everything".
The rage/click bait titles started as a joke (as well as mentioning Trench Crusade out of context just because it helped the algorithm). Relatively tongue in cheek and I used to watch regularly because there's some good insight from the LFGS side of the industry. They got very tiresome though and it did just seem to evolve into crapping on everything and making a lot of wider judgements (not without reason of course) just based on what was happening with their local scene (e.g. Legion was apparently 'dead' not that long ago, a discussion that came off the back of the announcement of a pretty huge range refresh). They're friends with Ash at GMG and the regular discussions over there felt much more constructive when he had them on.
Back closer to the topic though; it does make even more sense that they started packing some of the Shatterpoint terrain in with Legion stuff. The scale is close enough on the buildings that it makes no real difference and a lot of folks were using SP kits anyway.
A Star Wars game Legions Imperialis style would be just amazing (infantry + small vehicles + big vehicles + aircraft all together), but we will never see such a thing.
LunarSol wrote: I had to block that channel. They have some super insightful, but the overall channel sustains itself on rage bait. Super interesting stuff, but its not constructive and if you follow it for a while it turns into an exercise in "what's wrong with everything".
They honestly seem like they'd be happier working for GW again. Every non-GW video they come across as deeply resentful for having to stock non-40k products and offended that other companies have the audacity for trying to make their own wargames.
Their earlier videos had some interesting insights, but it feels like the well has mostly been drained on that front and it's just reacting to the latest faux-drama.
Seeing them do the usual Warhammer influencer thing of declaring TOW as dead on arrival and slowly shifting to "we've always loved Fantasy! AoS bad amirite?" has been funny if predictable.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I cant remember what video, but they said you shouldnt let pople play dead games or games you dont carry in the store because they are wasting space.
I completely agree. Shops are at constant risk of going under. Unless you have a business model that can actually pay for people playing games, and wargames need a lot of space and storage, they are to support your current product offering.
The best online source of game shop insight is I think Gary Ray on facebook (and sometimes blog), who wrote Friendly Local Game Store: A Five-Year Path to a Middle-Class Income.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Wonder if they'd launch a smaller skirmish variant for Legion at some point instead now.
There's been a skirmish level variant for Legion around for years (Spec Ops). It's just print and play and is very much a side project but it gets updated and new teams added every now and again. Very much Legion's answer to Kill Team. This year we're also getting Legion's version of Apocalypse level games at the other end of the spectrum.
Ah, that makes sense; wasn't aware of it (clearly) but will look into it as it sounds like an interesting variant — cheers!
NAVARRO wrote: Well I just cannot imagine the frustrating process of these short lived war-games that retailers have to endure... This is not like a card game you can dump on the table after you buy them. You have to buy, assemble, paint etc and that takes time... but life time is not something these games have so what is the point? How can a retailer invest in this, another time, and "convince" clients its different now?
And Star Wars has plenty of games that attract boardgamers who don't want to paint. FFG released Star Wars: Unlimited in 2024. (SW prepainted miniatures ended in 2010.)
As for Marvel, HeroClix is still around. (Sold to NECA even though I'm seeing it also on the WizKids website?)
CoolStuffInc has a massive sale on HC : https://www.coolstuffinc.com/page/3665
NAVARRO wrote: Well I just cannot imagine the frustrating process of these short lived war-games that retailers have to endure... This is not like a card game you can dump on the table after you buy them. You have to buy, assemble, paint etc and that takes time... but life time is not something these games have so what is the point? How can a retailer invest in this, another time, and "convince" clients its different now?
The short answer is: They can't.
The longer answer is that it works both ways. In most cases, games are only short lived because they don't sustain the sales to keep them going. That's partly from stores being unwilling to justify the investment and shelf space, and partly from gamers being unwilling to venture outside the box for fear that the game won't last.
And so the lion's share of the market remains with GW, as the 'safe' choice.
And of course, GW (and any other company who'd manage to reach their size) absolutely look upon MTG and other such card games with covetous eyes. Once you have a captive audience, why not milk them some more by rotating out their models for a couple years? Looking at you, Kill Team.
Meanwhile smaller games, as you noted, fight for their lives every moment just to keep their heads above water.
The first come first serve advantage feels pretty real. Same reason why nothing seems able to shake Discord, I suppose, no matter how many controversies it goes through.
NAVARRO wrote: Well I just cannot imagine the frustrating process of these short lived war-games that retailers have to endure... This is not like a card game you can dump on the table after you buy them. You have to buy, assemble, paint etc and that takes time... but life time is not something these games have so what is the point? How can a retailer invest in this, another time, and "convince" clients its different now?
The short answer is: They can't.
The longer answer is that it works both ways. In most cases, games are only short lived because they don't sustain the sales to keep them going. That's partly from stores being unwilling to justify the investment and shelf space, and partly from gamers being unwilling to venture outside the box for fear that the game won't last.
And so the lion's share of the market remains with GW, as the 'safe' choice.
And of course, GW (and any other company who'd manage to reach their size) absolutely look upon MTG and other such card games with covetous eyes. Once you have a captive audience, why not milk them some more by rotating out their models for a couple years? Looking at you, Kill Team.
Meanwhile smaller games, as you noted, fight for their lives every moment just to keep their heads above water.
The first come first serve advantage feels pretty real. Same reason why nothing seems able to shake Discord, I suppose, no matter how many controversies it goes through.
people greatly underestimate how good it is to be able to go in discord of a store and be guaranteed a game of 40k.
SU-152 wrote:A Star Wars game Legions Imperialis style would be just amazing (infantry + small vehicles + big vehicles + aircraft all together), but we will never see such a thing.
especially if it was made at the same rough scale as X-wing, letting you port over the minis from that to use as the aircraft side. imagine being able to land a U-wing to drop off a squad of rebel infantry onto a flank, while an X-wing zooms overhead providing cover fire.
LunarSol wrote: The idea of games lasting "forever" hasn't really been a thing in ages. When there was no real competition it was one thing, but now every product has a shelf life with even GW needing to replace stuff with modern resculpts as competing studios attempt to surpass them.
We could even expand this to differences between editions. 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition 40K were radically different games. 4th, 5th and 6th built upon 3rd. 8th onwards is again a very different game. Same branding, quite different incarnations.
Same for Necromunda really. Not gonna split hairs over whether the current version has had detectable editions. But between the original and the modern? The campaign systems are pretty different and so are a different experience.
WHFB and ToW don’t play the same. My preferred hammerblow and break you in one just…doesn’t really work in the same way. So despite the underlying “how to move stuff, how to kill stuff” rules remain pretty stable? How you actually play the game isn’t the same.
3rd Ed Heresy is again a pretty different game to 1st and 2nd. Much of the underlying isn’t radically different. But with Tactical Statuses changing what a good weapon looks like, and tanks moving beyond “one Lascannon, one kill” toughness? Again, how you successfully play the game is pretty different.
The big advantage for GW games is, whilst not universal? If you’ve a collection of models that was an army 25 years ago? You can most likely still use them today.
LunarSol wrote: The idea of games lasting "forever" hasn't really been a thing in ages. When there was no real competition it was one thing, but now every product has a shelf life with even GW needing to replace stuff with modern resculpts as competing studios attempt to surpass them.
We could even expand this to differences between editions. 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition 40K were radically different games. 4th, 5th and 6th built upon 3rd. 8th onwards is again a very different game. Same branding, quite different incarnations.
Same for Necromunda really. Not gonna split hairs over whether the current version has had detectable editions. But between the original and the modern? The campaign systems are pretty different and so are a different experience.
WHFB and ToW don’t play the same. My preferred hammerblow and break you in one just…doesn’t really work in the same way. So despite the underlying “how to move stuff, how to kill stuff” rules remain pretty stable? How you actually play the game isn’t the same.
3rd Ed Heresy is again a pretty different game to 1st and 2nd. Much of the underlying isn’t radically different. But with Tactical Statuses changing what a good weapon looks like, and tanks moving beyond “one Lascannon, one kill” toughness? Again, how you successfully play the game is pretty different.
The big advantage for GW games is, whilst not universal? If you’ve a collection of models that was an army 25 years ago? You can most likely still use them today.
Killteam has killed a bunch of teams, I don’t think I have any teams now left other than my eldar which was more luck since I didn’t get for kill team, and tau but for the same reason.
GW is its own special silly thing.
SU-152 wrote:A Star Wars game Legions Imperialis style would be just amazing (infantry + small vehicles + big vehicles + aircraft all together), but we will never see such a thing.
especially if it was made at the same rough scale as X-wing, letting you port over the minis from that to use as the aircraft side. imagine being able to land a U-wing to drop off a squad of rebel infantry onto a flank, while an X-wing zooms overhead providing cover fire.
I much prefer to imagine Imperial air defenses preventing such a scenario, thanks.
But you just know the models would land a little outside X-Wing scale, and more annoyingly come with differently sized bases that have a specific rules function as well.
Would that scale really have much reach though? The big moments in SW would be 'character' (skirmish 28mm) scale and space battles. The ground war section in Empire was cool, but very assymetrical and far less of a focus than space battles or character actions.
SU-152 wrote:A Star Wars game Legions Imperialis style would be just amazing (infantry + small vehicles + big vehicles + aircraft all together), but we will never see such a thing.
especially if it was made at the same rough scale as X-wing, letting you port over the minis from that to use as the aircraft side. imagine being able to land a U-wing to drop off a squad of rebel infantry onto a flank, while an X-wing zooms overhead providing cover fire.
I much prefer to imagine Imperial air defenses preventing such a scenario, thanks.
But you just know the models would land a little outside X-Wing scale, and more annoyingly come with differently sized bases that have a specific rules function as well.
I had hoped that X-Wing would expand to include a Rogue Squadron N64 style mode that included AT-ATs and Snow Speeders and other ground vehicles.
Daba wrote: Would that scale really have much reach though? The big moments in SW would be 'character' (skirmish 28mm) scale and space battles. The ground war section in Empire was cool, but very assymetrical and far less of a focus than space battles or character actions.
Yes and it is as limitation of the setting that a lot of the games come up against. Its TV soap opera stuff in terms of scale. Now make a wargame...
Someone mentioned something in the thread about how games being expected to last forever being a relatively new thing. Id say it is partly due to price of models, but also how games are consumed.
I think there is a disconnect between older gamers here(Like Gen X and Boomers) and younger gens because something i noticed is it is drastically different from how we play games or look at them. quite a bit of older gamers have their gaming group, they play in garages or sheds, and with one another.
alot of younger players play in shop. we consider gaming a more "Go out and meet people" kinda activity. Going to tournaments and conventions and meeting people. meeting new people who play things differently from us.
And if a game dies......we cant do that anymore. Conquest around me died and im having two armies Im still painting for the hope it grows again. yeah i have my friends, but they have their lists and built them so there is nothing new.
Isn't this good news? Remember, the original plan was to squat Legion. The lead dev hates it. But it outsold Shatterpoint by so much they just couldn't spin that to shareholders in any sane way.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I cant remember what video, but they said you shouldnt let pople play dead games or games you dont carry in the store because they are wasting space.
Yeah, their position as people who feed their families by running a game store is that you are weird if you think owning any random wargaming miniatures makes you entitled to use the premises and terrain of any game store anywhere in the world, for free, forever. And they challenge you to name any other field in which this is true. The audacity of those guys.
lord_blackfang wrote: Isn't this good news? Remember, the original plan was to squat Legion. The lead dev hates it. But it outsold Shatterpoint by so much they just couldn't spin that to shareholders in any sane way.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I cant remember what video, but they said you shouldnt let pople play dead games or games you dont carry in the store because they are wasting space.
Yeah, their position as people who feed their families by running a game store is that you are weird if you think owning any random wargaming miniatures makes you entitled to use the premises and terrain of any game store anywhere in the world, for free, forever. And they challenge you to name any other field in which this is true. The audacity of those guys.
1: there was never a plan to tank legion, idk wjere people got thst idea.
2: game stores exist as oke of tge few third spaces left., a place to go, hang out with friends and play games. And they are more important, especially in the US, to have due to not many people owning a home.
So yes, I do think people should be allowed to be in a space, tgst they are not actively harming, without the expectation of spending or making money for a store.
And before you say "well they are loosing table space" no....no they are not, for a vast majority of time most tables in game stores are not used, and if there is an event, even games in tge store are pushed to the side.
hotsauceman1 wrote: 2: game stores exist as oke of tge few third spaces left., a place to go, hang out with friends and play games. And they are more important, especially in the US, to have due to not many people owning a home.
So yes, I do think people should be allowed to be in a space, tgst they are not actively harming, without the expectation of spending or making money for a store.
And before you say "well they are loosing table space" no....no they are not, for a vast majority of time most tables in game stores are not used, and if there is an event, even games in tge store are pushed to the side.
I suppose there's two possible reactions to that sort of video. I realized I was being inconsiderate to the very real financial needs of the proprietor... you doubled down on your entitlement, to the point you're so livid you can't type
hotsauceman1 wrote: 2: game stores exist as oke of tge few third spaces left., a place to go, hang out with friends and play games. And they are more important, especially in the US, to have due to not many people owning a home.
So yes, I do think people should be allowed to be in a space, tgst they are not actively harming, without the expectation of spending or making money for a store.
And before you say "well they are loosing table space" no....no they are not, for a vast majority of time most tables in game stores are not used, and if there is an event, even games in tge store are pushed to the side.
I suppose there's two possible reactions to that sort of video. I realized I was being inconsiderate to the very real financial needs of the proprietor... you doubled down on your entitlement, to the point you're so livid you can't type
Im sure me playing trench crusade with my buddies having a fun time is such a financial burden, how will they recover.
Also good job insulting someone then come up with a counter argument
hotsauceman1 wrote: Someone mentioned something in the thread about how games being expected to last forever being a relatively new thing. Id say it is partly due to price of models, but also how games are consumed.
I think there is a disconnect between older gamers here(Like Gen X and Boomers) and younger gens because something i noticed is it is drastically different from how we play games or look at them. quite a bit of older gamers have their gaming group, they play in garages or sheds, and with one another.
alot of younger players play in shop. we consider gaming a more "Go out and meet people" kinda activity. Going to tournaments and conventions and meeting people. meeting new people who play things differently from us.
And if a game dies......we cant do that anymore. Conquest around me died and im having two armies Im still painting for the hope it grows again. yeah i have my friends, but they have their lists and built them so there is nothing new.
It really depends on the kind of community you build. The mono game tournament style works, but its appeal has its limits and they can die out during lulls in the game's popularity or just as people's lives change. Locally we've built a community built on miniature gaming as a genre than any particular game. Most people have at least 2-3 games they play and when someone is interested in a new game there's a pretty good chance there will be half a dozen people willing to try it so most people can come in with whatever they're excited about and be part of the crowd. It's easily been the largest minis community I've ever been a part of and the ability to bounce around and play the new hotness or old stuff or whatever people are excited about.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Someone mentioned something in the thread about how games being expected to last forever being a relatively new thing. Id say it is partly due to price of models, but also how games are consumed.
I think there is a disconnect between older gamers here(Like Gen X and Boomers) and younger gens because something i noticed is it is drastically different from how we play games or look at them. quite a bit of older gamers have their gaming group, they play in garages or sheds, and with one another.
alot of younger players play in shop. we consider gaming a more "Go out and meet people" kinda activity. Going to tournaments and conventions and meeting people. meeting new people who play things differently from us.
And if a game dies......we cant do that anymore. Conquest around me died and im having two armies Im still painting for the hope it grows again. yeah i have my friends, but they have their lists and built them so there is nothing new.
It really depends on the kind of community you build. The mono game tournament style works, but its appeal has its limits and they can die out during lulls in the game's popularity or just as people's lives change. Locally we've built a community built on miniature gaming as a genre than any particular game. Most people have at least 2-3 games they play and when someone is interested in a new game there's a pretty good chance there will be half a dozen people willing to try it so most people can come in with whatever they're excited about and be part of the crowd. It's easily been the largest minis community I've ever been a part of and the ability to bounce around and play the new hotness or old stuff or whatever people are excited about.
Im curious, wjat kinda games? Are they more small models easy entry types of games or are people playing like, horus heresy or old world.
hotsauceman1 wrote: 2: game stores exist as oke of tge few third spaces left., a place to go, hang out with friends and play games. And they are more important, especially in the US, to have due to not many people owning a home.
So yes, I do think people should be allowed to be in a space, tgst they are not actively harming, without the expectation of spending or making money for a store.
And before you say "well they are loosing table space" no....no they are not, for a vast majority of time most tables in game stores are not used, and if there is an event, even games in tge store are pushed to the side.
I suppose there's two possible reactions to that sort of video. I realized I was being inconsiderate to the very real financial needs of the proprietor... you doubled down on your entitlement, to the point you're so livid you can't type
Really I think it’s just about respecting the space. The same can be said about someone that buys all there 40K online then goes into a store to play. It’s fine until they start telling other how to get the miniatures cheaper without regards to why prices may differ.
When a new store open up here, there was a big thing just getting players in enough for drink and snacks sales. Since most people are not buying a box of miniatures each day. But magic players may buy cards if they drop by.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Someone mentioned something in the thread about how games being expected to last forever being a relatively new thing. Id say it is partly due to price of models, but also how games are consumed.
I think there is a disconnect between older gamers here(Like Gen X and Boomers) and younger gens because something i noticed is it is drastically different from how we play games or look at them. quite a bit of older gamers have their gaming group, they play in garages or sheds, and with one another.
alot of younger players play in shop. we consider gaming a more "Go out and meet people" kinda activity. Going to tournaments and conventions and meeting people. meeting new people who play things differently from us.
And if a game dies......we cant do that anymore. Conquest around me died and im having two armies Im still painting for the hope it grows again. yeah i have my friends, but they have their lists and built them so there is nothing new.
It really depends on the kind of community you build. The mono game tournament style works, but its appeal has its limits and they can die out during lulls in the game's popularity or just as people's lives change. Locally we've built a community built on miniature gaming as a genre than any particular game. Most people have at least 2-3 games they play and when someone is interested in a new game there's a pretty good chance there will be half a dozen people willing to try it so most people can come in with whatever they're excited about and be part of the crowd. It's easily been the largest minis community I've ever been a part of and the ability to bounce around and play the new hotness or old stuff or whatever people are excited about.
Im curious, wjat kinda games? Are they more small models easy entry types of games or are people playing like, horus heresy or old world.
A little bit of everything. The GW stuff all sees a bit of play, though 40k is the biggest by far with AoS being about as niche as Necromunda and smaller than Blood Bowl. Conquest is probably the other large scale game and a crowd that plays historicals and there's a lot of skirmish stuff like MCP, Shatterpoint, Malifaux, Warmachine, Infinity, Judgement etc. I do think its a LOT easier to spin up skirmish stuff and they're where a lot of the crossover happens being a lot of 2nd, 3rd+ games in people's collections.
hotsauceman1 wrote: 2: game stores exist as oke of tge few third spaces left., a place to go, hang out with friends and play games. And they are more important, especially in the US, to have due to not many people owning a home.
So yes, I do think people should be allowed to be in a space, tgst they are not actively harming, without the expectation of spending or making money for a store.
And before you say "well they are loosing table space" no....no they are not, for a vast majority of time most tables in game stores are not used, and if there is an event, even games in tge store are pushed to the side.
Ultimately, the game store is exactly that - a store. The purpose of having gaming space is to encourage people to get into the games that they sell. Having people play other games that they don't sell doesn't do that... it results in people making use of the game space (that costs the store money) and then those players spending their money elsewhere. It can potentially be useful for growing a gaming community, some of whom will then spend money in the store... or it can just wind up costing the store a bunch of money to maintain a space for no worthwhile return.
The fact that you don't have room at home to play doesn't automatically make a store public space to use as you wish.
I don't know if there is any crossover between SW wargames and SW merchandise as a whole, but the latter doesn't seem to be doing too well.
You can skip most of this video to 17:05 to see where most SW product ends up.
I'll admit I didn't watch the whole video because it was really annoying, but it seems to be conflating 'Star Wars Merchandise is in discount stores' with 'Star Wars Merchandise isn't selling any more!'... which is a stretch. It means that this specific merchandise isn't selling, but we have no way of knowing whether the 'Looks Like a Statue Obi Wan' figure at Ollies isn't selling because nobody is buying Star Wars merch anymore, or if it's because they produced 12 trillion of them and everyone who wanted one has one by now.
But given that Disney is apparently making around a billion dollars a year in merchandise sales, I'm betting on the latter, myself.
Overproduction is definitely a problem as it means that Disney's sales forecasters are using an inaccurate metric, it winds up costing them money and, as is happening here, creating the impression that the brand is unpopular. But it's a very different problem to 'nobody wants their merch anymore'...
Pokémon is similar to Star Wars, you can trip over cheap Pokemon stuff all the time. But can’t deny it isn’t selling.
And they refresh the range often for new things rather than keep it in stock for long times.
Disney is similar in how they use most of there merchandise IP.
Another thought about the store situation is something like battletech, our store, several are struggling to stock it due to world events. It sells well enough, but stock is low. So a new player is often left scrambling to find the mechs in a store without having to import or 3d print.
Honestly I think 3d printing is more scary for a store, as a miniature range can be stocked in a specialty way. But 3d printing is like the Wild West at this point.
I was even given shatterpoint proxy models all 3d printed a few weeks ago. He has an ork army that 80% 3d prints as well.
Also, over the last 10 years I have noticed the games stocked in a lot of game stores are really shrinking. Back before then I was able to go to a bunch of stores for a bunch of items. But now I’m not even finding D&D IotR boxes in stock. Which is a consistent seller still, but only specialty stores carry anything that not released in the last 4months.
Apple fox wrote: Pokémon is similar to Star Wars, you can trip over cheap Pokemon stuff all the time. But can’t deny it isn’t selling.
And they refresh the range often for new things rather than keep it in stock for long times.
Disney is similar in how they use most of there merchandise IP.
Another thought about the store situation is something like battletech, our store, several are struggling to stock it due to world events. It sells well enough, but stock is low. So a new player is often left scrambling to find the mechs in a store without having to import or 3d print.
Honestly I think 3d printing is more scary for a store, as a miniature range can be stocked in a specialty way. But 3d printing is like the Wild West at this point.
I was even given shatterpoint proxy models all 3d printed a few weeks ago. He has an ork army that 80% 3d prints as well.
Also, over the last 10 years I have noticed the games stocked in a lot of game stores are really shrinking. Back before then I was able to go to a bunch of stores for a bunch of items. But now I’m not even finding D&D IotR boxes in stock. Which is a consistent seller still, but only specialty stores carry anything that not released in the last 4months.
i have noticed many stores really shrinking what they carry otGW, and maybe a few others, you might find the gem carrying things like infinity or conquest, but the offerings are meager and stuff you may have already.
The same can be said about someone that buys all there 40K online then goes into a store to play.
I was told I wasn't welcome in a Warhammer store with minis I'd purchased from Element Games. I just stopped going to that store completely and spent my hobby budget at 3rd party retailers.
Daba wrote: Would that scale really have much reach though? The big moments in SW would be 'character' (skirmish 28mm) scale and space battles. The ground war section in Empire was cool, but very assymetrical and far less of a focus than space battles or character actions.
I don't know.
For me the big epic of Star Wars is the big battles of the clone wars and the age of the republic.
2: game stores exist as oke of tge few third spaces left., a place to go, hang out with friends and play games. And they are more important, especially in the US, to have due to not many people owning a home.
So yes, I do think people should be allowed to be in a space, tgst they are not actively harming, without the expectation of spending or making money for a store.
Fine. What about losing money. A shop is paying for staff, electricity, AC, wear and tear on furniture, presumably scenery and the like. If people coming to play aren't buying from them, and aren't paying for the overhead plus required profit margin (normally single figures) they will be gone soon. A board/card game shop opened near a friend recently thinking to let people come and play and on the back of that they will be able to sell them stuff. 3 months in they have started charging people £10 to sit and play because they were going down.
try setting up a club. Find a church hall or community building or library willing to let you store terrain and use the area. See their running costs and what you will need to pay them so they don't lose money.
Clubs require membership fees to pay for hall hire and often storage.
GW stores have never charged, but then few if any now offer open gaming tables.
FLGS are very much a use it or lose it. Granted, there will be situations where your preferred game just isn’t stocked. And so, no problem with them charging for table time.
Compare all those costs to buying, building and painting your home table and scenery, and it typically works out favourably.
Many GW stores are barely break-even in the UK, though I think the company strategy has shifted towards trying harder to make them profitable. GW has always seen them as partially about advertising rather than purely about retail. It works. There's a reason so many people know about GW, especially in the UK, even when they haven't ever seen a game or mini. If you live anywhere near a major city you'll have seen a GW store. That's why I was really confused when they rebranded them all to Warhammer stores. Seemed like a step backwards to me.
I'll admit I didn't watch the whole video because it was really annoying, but it seems to be conflating 'Star Wars Merchandise is in discount stores' with 'Star Wars Merchandise isn't selling any more!'... which is a stretch. It means that this specific merchandise isn't selling, but we have no way of knowing whether the 'Looks Like a Statue Obi Wan' figure at Ollies isn't selling because nobody is buying Star Wars merch anymore, or if it's because they produced 12 trillion of them and everyone who wanted one has one by now.
But given that Disney is apparently making around a billion dollars a year in merchandise sales, I'm betting on the latter, myself.
I will point out that this video's premise is not a Disney problem, it's a Hasbro problem. Hasbro needs to fill out waves for the line and will often pick very weird variants to reuse molds as cost cutting measures. This is not a Disney decision and is part of why Hasbro's constantly declining sales revenue toy division is so dependent on funding from the much more successful WotC side of things.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: GW stores have never charged, but then few if any now offer open gaming tables.
This is not true. Back when GW had Battle Bunkers in the US, they did charge for table usage(in fact, the only place I've ever encountered in the US that did charge across the hundreds of stores I've played at).
2: game stores exist as oke of tge few third spaces left., a place to go, hang out with friends and play games. And they are more important, especially in the US, to have due to not many people owning a home.
So yes, I do think people should be allowed to be in a space, tgst they are not actively harming, without the expectation of spending or making money for a store.
Fine. What about losing money. A shop is paying for staff, electricity, AC, wear and tear on furniture, presumably scenery and the like. If people coming to play aren't buying from them, and aren't paying for the overhead plus required profit margin (normally single figures) they will be gone soon. A board/card game shop opened near a friend recently thinking to let people come and play and on the back of that they will be able to sell them stuff. 3 months in they have started charging people £10 to sit and play because they were going down.
try setting up a club. Find a church hall or community building or library willing to let you store terrain and use the area. See their running costs and what you will need to pay them so they don't lose money.
I mean, we do have some, but it's more that if you don't know the person that owns/runs those places, the fees are way higher than a group is willing to pay(if they even say yes) and they won't let you store stuff there.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Jealous, I cant get people to so much as Blanche at another game
I've bought a lot of little minis sets for games other people were interested in to foster a more open attitude. About a decade ago I started a policy of "if its 5-10 minis lets play" and made myself an available opponent for whatever people were interested in. Now there's a focus game each week but people mostly play whatever they want. It's really grown way beyond my expectations. It really helps that the local 40k community leader is great and really brought the game to a new level of popularity. There's never been a sense of poaching players between game systems. It's all about growing a miniatures community and not a specific game.
Slipspace wrote: Many GW stores are barely break-even in the UK, though I think the company strategy has shifted towards trying harder to make them profitable. GW has always seen them as partially about advertising rather than purely about retail. It works. There's a reason so many people know about GW, especially in the UK, even when they haven't ever seen a game or mini. If you live anywhere near a major city you'll have seen a GW store. That's why I was really confused when they rebranded them all to Warhammer stores. Seemed like a step backwards to me.
I am still baffled as to how not have people playing the games in the shops is a good move. Having people display your games and models for free was I thought a cunning sales tactic.
2: game stores exist as oke of tge few third spaces left., a place to go, hang out with friends and play games. And they are more important, especially in the US, to have due to not many people owning a home.
So yes, I do think people should be allowed to be in a space, tgst they are not actively harming, without the expectation of spending or making money for a store.
Fine. What about losing money. A shop is paying for staff, electricity, AC, wear and tear on furniture, presumably scenery and the like. If people coming to play aren't buying from them, and aren't paying for the overhead plus required profit margin (normally single figures) they will be gone soon. A board/card game shop opened near a friend recently thinking to let people come and play and on the back of that they will be able to sell them stuff. 3 months in they have started charging people £10 to sit and play because they were going down.
try setting up a club. Find a church hall or community building or library willing to let you store terrain and use the area. See their running costs and what you will need to pay them so they don't lose money.
I think most game stores fall apart the moment either side takes the stance that they are owed something. There's no surefire answer to running one successfully because you need to create a symbiosis. If the store isn't catering to its audience or the customers are supporting the store, it's just not going to work. Depending on what space in your area costs, it's possible that it's simply not going to work. Sometimes there just isn't a demand to be met.
There are definitely players that take advantage of a store but a store that treats players like weeds is killing any potential for growth. Like, sure. If your tables are full of paying customers then you simply don't have space for minis games and that's fine, but if you've got available space, it's not costing you anything to let people use it. Your breadwinners will fall out of favor eventually. Magic was hot, Board games were hot. DnD was hot. If you're not open to new people coming in to play, you're not adapting to the market.
I can't stress how much work it takes to run a successful store and how often people just don't want to do it. Yeah, distributors are a pain to work with, but that's literally what the job is all about. Far too many stores stock their shelves and just wait for customers to clear them. You have to have a finger on the pulse. You have to have sales to clear back stock to fund new product to refresh your shelves. You have to know what kind of demand is in your area and not wildly overstock. Ideally you order what you sell. You need to know your customers and what they play and provide for them.
If people are playing a game you don't sell; keep an eye on it. Honestly most games really only need you to stock starter boxes not the whole line. You're giving that group an opportunity to bring in new players to buy the game off the shelf and if you can get in new releases for them for the factions they play, great. Let the internet fill in the gaps. Far far too many stores overstock and resent players for not buying things they didn't want or need.
Like I said though, this only works if its a two way street. It's not even that players need to feel obligated to buy things. Players need to help build out a terrain collection and promote the game nights and be available to teach new players and run classes. All this stuff takes work but provides value to the store. Granted, players also need to be willing to buy paints, models, flock and the rest while they're there. It's a two way street, which is why they're so prone to failure.
2: game stores exist as oke of tge few third spaces left., a place to go, hang out with friends and play games. And they are more important, especially in the US, to have due to not many people owning a home.
So yes, I do think people should be allowed to be in a space, tgst they are not actively harming, without the expectation of spending or making money for a store.
Fine. What about losing money. A shop is paying for staff, electricity, AC, wear and tear on furniture, presumably scenery and the like. If people coming to play aren't buying from them, and aren't paying for the overhead plus required profit margin (normally single figures) they will be gone soon. A board/card game shop opened near a friend recently thinking to let people come and play and on the back of that they will be able to sell them stuff. 3 months in they have started charging people £10 to sit and play because they were going down.
try setting up a club. Find a church hall or community building or library willing to let you store terrain and use the area. See their running costs and what you will need to pay them so they don't lose money.
I think most game stores fall apart the moment either side takes the stance that they are owed something. There's no surefire answer to running one successfully because you need to create a symbiosis. If the store isn't catering to its audience or the customers are supporting the store, it's just not going to work. Depending on what space in your area costs, it's possible that it's simply not going to work. Sometimes there just isn't a demand to be met.
There are definitely players that take advantage of a store but a store that treats players like weeds is killing any potential for growth. Like, sure. If your tables are full of paying customers then you simply don't have space for minis games and that's fine, but if you've got available space, it's not costing you anything to let people use it. Your breadwinners will fall out of favor eventually. Magic was hot, Board games were hot. DnD was hot. If you're not open to new people coming in to play, you're not adapting to the market.
I can't stress how much work it takes to run a successful store and how often people just don't want to do it. Yeah, distributors are a pain to work with, but that's literally what the job is all about. Far too many stores stock their shelves and just wait for customers to clear them. You have to have a finger on the pulse. You have to have sales to clear back stock to fund new product to refresh your shelves. You have to know what kind of demand is in your area and not wildly overstock. Ideally you order what you sell. You need to know your customers and what they play and provide for them.
If people are playing a game you don't sell; keep an eye on it. Honestly most games really only need you to stock starter boxes not the whole line. You're giving that group an opportunity to bring in new players to buy the game off the shelf and if you can get in new releases for them for the factions they play, great. Let the internet fill in the gaps. Far far too many stores overstock and resent players for not buying things they didn't want or need.
Like I said though, this only works if its a two way street. It's not even that players need to feel obligated to buy things. Players need to help build out a terrain collection and promote the game nights and be available to teach new players and run classes. All this stuff takes work but provides value to the store. Granted, players also need to be willing to buy paints, models, flock and the rest while they're there. It's a two way street, which is why they're so prone to failure.
Im honestly surprised people took what i said as saying stores should just let people do whatever and play whatever whenever in a store. but you are right. My store doesnt carry trench crusade. like obviously. but quite often on mondays it is 40k night for a league. now its march and was a slow month for the league so we had open tables. Why not let my buddies play trench crusade there for fun? the tables are open ,they buy pots of paints and snacks and such.
and guess what the trench crusade people are also 40kers.
Im honestly surprised people took what i said as saying stores should just let people do whatever and play whatever whenever in a store. but you are right. My store doesnt carry trench crusade. like obviously. but quite often on mondays it is 40k night for a league. now its march and was a slow month for the league so we had open tables. Why not let my buddies play trench crusade there for fun? the tables are open ,they buy pots of paints and snacks and such.
and guess what the trench crusade people are also 40kers.
I've heard owners complain about minis games in their empty shops and "why shouldn't they just hold another card night with more players that all buy packs" which I used to see as a valid argument but now I'm asking "well, why aren't you then?".
Im honestly surprised people took what i said as saying stores should just let people do whatever and play whatever whenever in a store. but you are right. My store doesnt carry trench crusade. like obviously. but quite often on mondays it is 40k night for a league. now its march and was a slow month for the league so we had open tables. Why not let my buddies play trench crusade there for fun? the tables are open ,they buy pots of paints and snacks and such.
and guess what the trench crusade people are also 40kers.
I've heard owners complain about minis games in their empty shops and "why shouldn't they just hold another card night with more players that all buy packs" which I used to see as a valid argument but now I'm asking "well, why aren't you then?".
i have heard my local store, say that people that come to hang out with their friends are stealing his AC.
im sorry, but i work past league start, should i not be allowed to come in and be with people i enjoy? sorry my existing is a burdon.
Slipspace wrote: Many GW stores are barely break-even in the UK, though I think the company strategy has shifted towards trying harder to make them profitable. GW has always seen them as partially about advertising rather than purely about retail. It works. There's a reason so many people know about GW, especially in the UK, even when they haven't ever seen a game or mini. If you live anywhere near a major city you'll have seen a GW store. That's why I was really confused when they rebranded them all to Warhammer stores. Seemed like a step backwards to me.
I am still baffled as to how not have people playing the games in the shops is a good move. Having people display your games and models for free was I thought a cunning sales tactic.
The flip side of GW having a presence on most high streets/city centres, is that they can't - or won't - pay the rent for a large shop in those locations because it's expensive. So you can't really have gaming space in any real sense. Most have just a single table, maybe two, for intro games and it's usually about 4'x4' at the absolute most. The staff do intro games and are usually really good at it. There's also usually space for painting, which helps advertise the models.
Painting space is often a highly overlooked feature of a shop. The local 40k group promotes painting at the shop way more than any group I've seen and it brings in a lot of people that end up restocking supplies while they're there.
LunarSol wrote: My family has no problem with me inviting people over to game, but that's largely because they've been heavily vetted long before they meet them.
I mean, since my locals are all pre-organize the game before going to play style, in general I don't really play people I wouldn't be willing to invite over.
LunarSol wrote: My family has no problem with me inviting people over to game, but that's largely because they've been heavily vetted long before they meet them.
I mean, since my locals are all pre-organize the game before going to play style, in general I don't really play people I wouldn't be willing to invite over.
The main challenge there is finding new players to bring into the group.
I will point out that this video's premise is not a Disney problem, it's a Hasbro problem. Hasbro needs to fill out waves for the line and will often pick very weird variants to reuse molds as cost cutting measures. This is not a Disney decision and is part of why Hasbro's constantly declining sales revenue toy division is so dependent on funding from the much more successful WotC side of things.
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Also, action figures have been declining since the 90s. As parents shifted increasingly to raising kids by plonking them in front of a screen and video games leapt forward in quality and availability, fewer kids wanted action figures and the focus for a lot of ranges turned to adult collectors, trading on nostalgia. And by now, a lot of those adult collectors are getting to an age where they aren't buying as much ( or are dead) and the next generations who didn't grow up with an interest in action figures as kids don't have that same nostalgia for them as adults.
Combine that with said figures often bring really expensive instead of the pocket money purchase they once were, and it's not too surprising if sales in that particular category are poor.
I will point out that this video's premise is not a Disney problem, it's a Hasbro problem. Hasbro needs to fill out waves for the line and will often pick very weird variants to reuse molds as cost cutting measures. This is not a Disney decision and is part of why Hasbro's constantly declining sales revenue toy division is so dependent on funding from the much more successful WotC side of things.
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Also, action figures have been declining since the 90s. As parents shifted increasingly to raising kids by plonking them in front of a screen and video games leapt forward in quality and availability, fewer kids wanted action figures and the focus for a lot of ranges turned to adult collectors, trading on nostalgia. And by now, a lot of those adult collectors are getting to an age where they aren't buying as much ( or are dead) and the next generations who didn't grow up with an interest in action figures as kids don't have that same nostalgia for them as adults.
Combine that with said figures often bring really expensive instead of the pocket money purchase they once were, and it's not too surprising if sales in that particular category are poor.
Figures also have a much bigger competition now, with anime becoming more mainstream there is a huge figure industry suddenly in the market that is very different. But these companies are also selling way more in various markets as well. So it’s Changing but probably healthy considering.
We see a lot more high end figures go through now than the lower cheeper stuff.
This also with dolls, we been seeing high end dolls selling more, but the lower end market selling less as space is a problem.
LunarSol wrote: My family has no problem with me inviting people over to game, but that's largely because they've been heavily vetted long before they meet them.
I mean, since my locals are all pre-organize the game before going to play style, in general I don't really play people I wouldn't be willing to invite over.
The main challenge there is finding new players to bring into the group.
Not a challenge at all, we find them at the shops. We arrange games to be played at the shops over said shops Discord channels etc.
We vet them at the shops & elsewhere (the pub next door, local events, etc) over time. This is not a quick process & it's not discussed with the person in question.
If I, the circle who do have invites, & family ALL agree? Then they can be extended invites. 1 vote against = no invite. That's how you get invited to my house.
And the final test is do the dogs like you?
LunarSol wrote: My family has no problem with me inviting people over to game, but that's largely because they've been heavily vetted long before they meet them.
I mean, since my locals are all pre-organize the game before going to play style, in general I don't really play people I wouldn't be willing to invite over.
The main challenge there is finding new players to bring into the group.
Not a challenge at all, we find them at the shops. We arrange games to be played at the shops over said shops Discord channels etc.
We vet them at the shops & elsewhere (the pub next door, local events, etc) over time. This is not a quick process & it's not discussed with the person in question.
If I, the circle who do have invites, & family ALL agree? Then they can be extended invites. 1 vote against = no invite. That's how you get invited to my house.
And the final test is do the dogs like you?
I have never met a dog that didn’t love me… I have been squished by dog hugs several times now meeting new dogs. Honestly it’s possible it’s a curse by some trickster god at this point.
Slipspace wrote: Many GW stores are barely break-even in the UK, though I think the company strategy has shifted towards trying harder to make them profitable. GW has always seen them as partially about advertising rather than purely about retail. It works. There's a reason so many people know about GW, especially in the UK, even when they haven't ever seen a game or mini. If you live anywhere near a major city you'll have seen a GW store. That's why I was really confused when they rebranded them all to Warhammer stores. Seemed like a step backwards to me.
I am still baffled as to how not have people playing the games in the shops is a good move. Having people display your games and models for free was I thought a cunning sales tactic.
It can definitely be a benefit. And I think people miss that in this whole discussion.
But it can also be a detriment, if the only people in the shop are sat at a table in the middle playing a game, it can put people off as they think they might be disturbing it. Or maybe the players aren't actually a great advert for the game for any number of reasons (like, there's a reason you don't set up complex Eurogames for demos in a board game shop as a group of people being really quiet and staring at the board does not do much to sell a game, even if the components look nice.)
i find that, more often then not, people, especially if they have family, dont want to have people over to game
Yeah, you don't want those creepy weirdos around your family or touching your stuff.
Seriously though, there are people I am 100% fine with playing games with at the shop who will NEVER get an invite to my home.
Not a huge leap of logic from that to seeing why a game store might not see it as beneficial to have those people in the store for 3 hours playing then.
I will point out that this video's premise is not a Disney problem, it's a Hasbro problem. Hasbro needs to fill out waves for the line and will often pick very weird variants to reuse molds as cost cutting measures. This is not a Disney decision and is part of why Hasbro's constantly declining sales revenue toy division is so dependent on funding from the much more successful WotC side of things. .
Also, action figures have been declining since the 90s. As parents shifted increasingly to raising kids by plonking them in front of a screen and video games leapt forward in quality and availability, fewer kids wanted action figures and the focus for a lot of ranges turned to adult collectors, trading on nostalgia. And by now, a lot of those adult collectors are getting to an age where they aren't buying as much ( or are dead) and the next generations who didn't grow up with an interest in action figures as kids don't have that same nostalgia for them as adults.
Combine that with said figures often bring really expensive instead of the pocket money purchase they once were, and it's not too surprising if sales in that particular category are poor.
There's a reason why both internal brochures for department heads and investors as well as marketing have started showing and appealing to grown collectors almost as much as children, yeah.
That said, there is still a market for kids there, hence why there's a growing market presence of stuff like FNaF toys, Skibidi Toilet, and YouTuber merch. My son can't get enough of the FNaF figures.
LunarSol wrote: My family has no problem with me inviting people over to game, but that's largely because they've been heavily vetted long before they meet them.
Which of course requires some gaming in neutral ground before that decision can be made... Yeah.
Didn't read the whole thread, but I'm not surprised. Absolutely par-for-the-course for FFG/Asmodee/Atomic.
Shatterpoint could have been a great crossover with Legion as a way to make really dramatic and thematic character and unit variants useable in both Shatterpoint and in Legion, but now it's just another game that won't get played or supported as much.
I will point out that this video's premise is not a Disney problem, it's a Hasbro problem. Hasbro needs to fill out waves for the line and will often pick very weird variants to reuse molds as cost cutting measures. This is not a Disney decision and is part of why Hasbro's constantly declining sales revenue toy division is so dependent on funding from the much more successful WotC side of things.
.
Also, action figures have been declining since the 90s. As parents shifted increasingly to raising kids by plonking them in front of a screen and video games leapt forward in quality and availability, fewer kids wanted action figures and the focus for a lot of ranges turned to adult collectors, trading on nostalgia. And by now, a lot of those adult collectors are getting to an age where they aren't buying as much ( or are dead) and the next generations who didn't grow up with an interest in action figures as kids don't have that same nostalgia for them as adults.
Combine that with said figures often bring really expensive instead of the pocket money purchase they once were, and it's not too surprising if sales in that particular category are poor.
I bought ALOT of 3.75" Star Wars figures over the years, but I slowed 2 years ago when they hit $16 officially tapped out of retail this year when MSRP hit $18-24 each. I still hunt them down at discount places like Ross and there's a couple really good used/vintage toy stores here in Chicago where I can dip in to the rich history of the last couple decades of figures at a lower cost, but collecting them at MSRP seems silly now.
LunarSol wrote: My family has no problem with me inviting people over to game, but that's largely because they've been heavily vetted long before they meet them.
Which of course requires some gaming in neutral ground before that decision can be made... Yeah.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've got well over a decade of hosting gaming in my home (as organizer of a wargaming group/club) almost exclusively and I've never had any truly negative experiences. I don't wargame at shops and haven't done any extensive vetting beyond getting the persons name and contact info. Only a few semi-weirdos visit, but they just don't get invited back and nearly always make the decision on their own not to return.
Contributing factors may be that...
- We're a group, so any newcomer is outnumbered by folks with a mature disposition.
- We game in the basement so there's no family contact.
- We're a casual group, playing less-common games so beardy power/comp gamers aren't interested.
- We only allow painted models, so there's a certain expectation of decorum.
- We're a pretty stable group, so there isn't much need to advertise for new members. Those who are interested tend to find us on their own or via the forums/discord of a game we play. We have a few visitors each year and on average probably add add one regularly attending member per year.
... but my home has become the location for all my gaming (except cons and other friends homes) and it's worked out just fine.
I live in a small apartment and my kids and wife use all the space, it'd feel very selfish to use space for a long wargame, and anyway the two and a half year old would be all over it and stuff would get broken.
If we ever move house, I doubt it'll be big enough to dedicate space to my hobby like that - maybe a shed in the garden, or space in the basement if we have one, but I doubt permanently set up! Space is just too valuable and expensive.
So I mostly play in my work, a school. They don't mind us popping in after hours to play in my classroom as long as we tidy everything up. It means carting my scenery and so on to and fro when we game but that's why I carefully designed everything to be modular and easy to store, so it will all easily fit in the boot of my car.
The only time I've ever tried to get a game in a GW shop it was pretty much the worst wargaming experience of my life, I was really disheartened by how unpleasant the fella that volunteered to play me was, his half assembled and unpainted daemon army was honestly an embarrassment to the hobby and the game was extremely unfun. I never went back to play or buy anything at that shop again, so having a bunch of fellas hanging around waiting for a game truly can be a detriment if they're not nice people.
Da Boss wrote: I live in a small apartment and my kids and wife use all the space, it'd feel very selfish to use space for a long wargame, and anyway the two and a half year old would be all over it and stuff would get broken.
If we ever move house, I doubt it'll be big enough to dedicate space to my hobby like that - maybe a shed in the garden, or space in the basement if we have one, but I doubt permanently set up! Space is just too valuable and expensive.
So I mostly play in my work, a school. They don't mind us popping in after hours to play in my classroom as long as we tidy everything up. It means carting my scenery and so on to and fro when we game but that's why I carefully designed everything to be modular and easy to store, so it will all easily fit in the boot of my car.
The only time I've ever tried to get a game in a GW shop it was pretty much the worst wargaming experience of my life, I was really disheartened by how unpleasant the fella that volunteered to play me was, his half assembled and unpainted daemon army was honestly an embarrassment to the hobby and the game was extremely unfun. I never went back to play or buy anything at that shop again, so having a bunch of fellas hanging around waiting for a game truly can be a detriment if they're not nice people.
That's an excellent way to do it, espeicially in an area where space may be smaller and/or more expensive. I'd suggest that what you are doing has more in common with gaming in an american's basement than it does with a game store in terms of your control over (and responsibiltiy for) the space.
I'm lucky enough to have a basement that can fit an 8x4, 6x4 and 4x4 simultaneously, but it's also the family's puzzle, play, toy, craft space, so I can't monopolize the space in between game nights.
I have no problem inviting other players to my house. Old friends are particularly welcome but my wife is also used to hearing "no, you don't know the guy, he's new, I met him online. Can we have a game or two of Kill Team on Sunday". Obviously sometimes it needs extra arrangements with her, but as we play in a separate room of the flat, we hardly get into each other's way (bathroom being an exception maybe).
Those "random" opponents aren't that random too. If I invite them that's probably because we caught a good vibe talking online or playing each other at some tournament and I roughly know that I can expect sporting behaviour and a good game. I know anyone I play against is here for a quality experience - painted armies, knowing the rules, all that stuff.
It would be a shame if I had to play in public spaces exclusively, as shops are probably the worst place to have a game I know (crowd, noise, limited space, expectation to buy, often crappy tables/terrain not to mention totally random opponents - these are out of the equation). To be fair I'd rather arrange a game on the outside (like setting up a board on a table in a park). Clubs or gaming cafes are better, but nothing beats the comfort of my own home.
I mean, most decent-sized family homes have some sort of dining table, do people not just play on that? Yeah you've got to be done by dinnertime but that shouldn't really be an issue.
(Or if you're loaded you can get one of those fancy gaming tables where the game space is recessed and you can leave it set up, and put the leaves back on top of the table for dinner)
deano2099 wrote: I mean, most decent-sized family homes have some sort of dining table, do people not just play on that? Yeah you've got to be done by dinnertime but that shouldn't really be an issue.
(Or if you're loaded you can get one of those fancy gaming tables where the game space is recessed and you can leave it set up, and put the leaves back on top of the table for dinner)
We could use the dining room table. And we do for board games & small scale skirmish games. But the living room is much larger & has better lighting.
So when I host large scale games like 40k/AoS/etc we set up a portable table, mats, etc in the living room.
deano2099 wrote: I mean, most decent-sized family homes have some sort of dining table, do people not just play on that? Yeah you've got to be done by dinnertime but that shouldn't really be an issue.
(Or if you're loaded you can get one of those fancy gaming tables where the game space is recessed and you can leave it set up, and put the leaves back on top of the table for dinner)
We could use the dining room table. And we do for board games & small scale skirmish games. But the living room is much larger & has better lighting.
So when I host large scale games like 40k/AoS/etc we set up a portable table, mats, etc in the living room.
Also helps that the living room has the TV for streaming ambience music and with the way my home is set up, is both more kitchen(relative to the dining area) and outdoor drink fridge adjacent for easy refreshment obtaining.
I do wonder exactly what the licensing agreement says.
Because ideally, if AMG/Asmodee lost the license, I’d love for whoever picked it up next could just return it to market.
I understand you can’t copyright game rules as such. And it may require investing in new sculpts and moulds depending on who actually owns them, and of course where they actually are these days,
But I think the game itself still has sufficient pedigree and dare I say nostalgia to be profitable should another company get the chance to pick up where it left off.
I do wonder exactly what the licensing agreement says.
Because ideally, if AMG/Asmodee lost the license, I’d love for whoever picked it up next could just return it to market.
I understand you can’t copyright game rules as such. And it may require investing in new sculpts and moulds depending on who actually owns them, and of course where they actually are these days,
But I think the game itself still has sufficient pedigree and dare I say nostalgia to be profitable should another company get the chance to pick up where it left off.
Wizkids back in the day bought a license of the X-Wing rules to make Star Trek Attack Wing (and still producing it). So to me it seems the rules are separate from the SW license. So, SW is probably the bigger problem with AMG still selling SW games and obviously holding that license.
I do wonder exactly what the licensing agreement says.
Because ideally, if AMG/Asmodee lost the license, I’d love for whoever picked it up next could just return it to market.
I understand you can’t copyright game rules as such. And it may require investing in new sculpts and moulds depending on who actually owns them, and of course where they actually are these days,
But I think the game itself still has sufficient pedigree and dare I say nostalgia to be profitable should another company get the chance to pick up where it left off.
Anyone bring it back would likely need the Star Wars license, as well as anything produced by AMG, Asmodee and FFG possibly. But when it died, the game was really dead. Why not a great way to know exactly where it sits, shatterpoint is getting hundreds more views on YouTube than what X-wing was(it’s not even close). Even at the end, discussion videos didn’t seem to get much interest.
So someone picking it up would be fighting up hill to bring it back. As well as would people be buying the ships again, to support a game coming back.
It could be the game was just dead before AMG got it, and it was stuck needing investment but not getting the money to get that support ether.
Pedigree and nostalgia isn’t all you need sadly.
But I think if they were to bring it back, having fleet books would be the only way to do it. The cards system was great, but i remember so much complaining constantly about the cards. Constant, everywhere and in like every discussion on the game it come up. So maybe if they supported something similar to there main games where rules are easy to access and free I could see it coming back.
X-Wing was not doing great when AMG got it, but their actions weren't exactly helpful in changing those fortunes. Not sure about Shatterpoint's online presence as I don't play it, but we did just have a 140-person X-Wing tournament in the UK a couple of weeks ago so it's not a dead game by any stretch.
The rules for X-Wing were licensed by FFG/Asmodee from the Wings of Glory ruleset, then simplified. That actually makes it a bit more likely we'd see a revival of the game if the licesne went elsewhere since the core mechanics aren't owned by Asmodee, though I suspect many of the more Star Wars additions (Force, tractor beams, etc) would be a stumbling block in that scenario.
Which is why I’d love to know the details of the underlying license.
Certainly if the moulds don’t belong to Disney (who own the central property) then should the license go elsewhere? Said moulds would become virtually worthless.
I'm actually fine with games dying. Your miniatures are forever, but at some point it's not sustainable to keep gak on the shelves on the off chance someone new will join up, when most potential customers already own everything, and new additions make the game worse, not better.
X-wing had a great run, let it be. I'd love for the flight path system to return somewhere else, how about a Wing Commander license?
Could also be that the Star Wars licence is quite pricey, so it’s in a weird spot for games. I would be curious if marvel licence is similar or not.
Cool to hear that x-wing can still get numbers like that also, here it was basically me and a handful of players on occasions. Never got to go to any event of noticeable size.
lord_blackfang wrote: I'm actually fine with games dying. Your miniatures are forever, but at some point it's not sustainable to keep gak on the shelves on the off chance someone new will join up, when most potential customers already own everything, and new additions make the game worse, not better.
X-wing had a great run, let it be. I'd love for the flight path system to return somewhere else, how about a Wing Commander license?
Guess I’m just bummed it was killed off so unceremoniously.
And hey, it had probably the best pre-assembled, pre-painted detailed miniatures I’ve ever encountered. Yes, even better than Armada, where my first contact was at a pretty grotty weekend Con in a caravan park, and it was being demoed with what I can only describe as Factory Second models.
What a hateful video. I should have turned it off as soon as the commenter started talking about "diversity characters". I grew up in what most would call a diverse family, and my own family is even more so, so to me people talking about an international franchise (set in universe of aliens and droids) as having a problem with "diversity characters" immediately raises alarms. To me a world with Latins and Asians is just... my world.
But I carried on. As the narrator blah blahs about never seeing Star Wars stuff on sale before.
Oh my dear sweet summer child.
I remember $1 Star Wars action figure bins around 1985 or 86 after Return of the Jedi was gone and the franchise was joining Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon in the trash heap of history. Had I known those Power of the Force figures with collector coins could be paying for girls' college. Of course had I know I'd have put those dollars into Apple stock, so there we are.
I remember deep discounts around 1999 and 2000 after the Special Editions went their way, and then after Phantom Menace failed to set the world on fire. Still have my 2' Blockade Runner and 2' Star Destroyer from those days. Didn't get the $10 AT-ATs but they tempted me.
More recently I remember wandering Toys R Us and seeing shelves and shelves of unsellable Rogue One toys, 3' Storm Troopers and 3' versions of whatever that reprogrammed droid's name was. Who wanted that? Who had room for that? And Rogue One is the 'good' Disney film.
He blah blahs about people wanting original trilogy toys, which showing video of unsold Return of the Jedi toys, which IIRC is an original trilogy film. Heck my last Star Wars buy is sitting on my desk, it's a diecast Star Destroyer, I got for half price on clearance.
He presents himself as an expert because he buys toys, haunts a local discount store (and is apparently blacklisted for filming it) and read a post somewhere about 50,000 unsold action figures.
He obviously never worked in retail, manufacturing or licensing.
I have.
When a film, TV show, cartoon goes out of rotation the toy/book/comic line drops like a stone. You're trying to sell Valentines chocolates on Feb 15, to sell Christmas decorations on Dec 26. They get discounted, all of them, fast. Check out any discount store and you'll find plenty of stuff from whatever was a hit 2 or 3 years ago. Heck Hanley's and Toys R Us in Egypt and India still had My Little Pony the Movie (2017) stuff on the shelves until recently, obviously overstock from the UK and US they shipped overseas.
This is normal.
Manufacturers overproduce and stores overorder because the unit cost and shipping cost is less than a quarter of the retail price. If they sell like half of what they order they're fine, 100% sell through in toys is a rare chimera, Cabbage Patch Kids madness level stuff. And yeah, sometimes that means stuff sits on shelves until you give up and throw it out. Or ship it to Egypt.
There are serious issues with Disney Star Wars as we can see from how they have scaled back.
But to claim expertise based on nothing and blame 'diversity'?
It doesn't help sales that the 3.5" line is now $20USD a figure due to inflation, double what they were like 10-15 years ago. They went from "I can impulse buy one of those random characters that never got a figure before while I shop for essentials" to "This is serious consideration purchase money".
Action figures made for kids, when I was young, it was the most popular toy for us to play with, computers and video games were having their first steps so we played a lot with those action figures.
I dont know today the appetite youngsters have for these kind of toys when all is digital for the most part. But collectors and such seem to have exploded, much like Pokemon card thing.
What Im saying is this just a collector market now? and if so does anyone really care about the popularity of licenses between waves of movies/marketing?
NAVARRO wrote: What Im saying is this just a collector market now? and if so does anyone really care about the popularity of licenses between waves of movies/marketing?
Seems a non problem to me.
It is not just a collector thing. Kids do still buy toys, but in general it's stuff like the Jurassic World stuff(because Dinosaurs), super heroes, and properties tied to media the kids enjoy like Mr. Beast, Skibidi Toilet, Five Nights at Freddy's, Disney Princesses, et al. The stuff we grew up with for the most part is bought(or not) by collecting adults.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: As a Star Wars Collector? The main problem with the Sequel Trilogy toys is they were a step backward in quality,
Five points of articulation. One or two accessories with no in-built holsters.
Compare to what came immediately before with loads of articulation, removable helmets, holsters and so on.
The value just wasn’t there for many collectors.
That was a different line specifically made for kids, there were Legacy/Black Series Sequel figures on release that had all of that.
That's true, but the Prequel figures the better articulation and accessories as the standard action line, so it was a step backwards.
Then the lines were split for the Sequels and you had the toy 5POA line and the more expensive highly poseable Black series. Still, the toy 5POA line had good sculpting and the same proportions/size as the more expensive lines so they were compatible visually and on the shelf.
Eventually the "Vintage series" (for those not following, the "Vintage" series were actually well detailed, modern style. "Retro" figures were in the style of the 70's/80's) took over almost everything 3.75" and it seemed like a good comprimise had been reached with $15 highly poseable figures with good accessories. For me $15 was still barely an impulse buy and hence I have alot of them.
Then Hasbro got greedy and bumped that up a couple times over a couple years until we got to $20 figures, and $25 for figures with a few more accessories. They have recently introduced another 5 POA line at a low price point, but the size, proportion and style are different.
Figures that are compatible with what I have are now no longer an impulse buy in regular retail outlets. I'll keep looking at Ross and other outlets, but I'm out at MSRP.
This may be part of the problem. Too many lines, too many scales, I may like Rei or that guy or whasshisname but will I buy him in 3 different lines and 3 different scales?
The last time I legit cared about Star Wars toys (other than "this is both cool and cheap and I need some dopamine now") Regan was in office but at the time and even the likes of Ree Yees sold.
But now there's a 1001 ways to enjoy Star Wars including just calling it up on my phone RIGHT NOW so do I really need a Ree Yees in my pocket?
So I think the idea that wasshisface the major character from that thing with the rocket ships doesn't sell is because he is "diverse" just does not work.
Star Wars in particular has become such a focal point for a really awful section of the internet. Honestly they're largely responsible for it not being fun to be a Star Wars fan anymore. I've blocked most Star Wars content these days. It's much easier to enjoy the new shows and games without the algorithm pandering hate.
LunarSol wrote: Star Wars in particular has become such a focal point for a really awful section of the internet. Honestly they're largely responsible for it not being fun to be a Star Wars fan anymore. I've blocked most Star Wars content these days. It's much easier to enjoy the new shows and games without the algorithm pandering hate.
I really like Eckhart's Ladder and Corey's Datapad; you should check them out.
LunarSol wrote: Star Wars in particular has become such a focal point for a really awful section of the internet. Honestly they're largely responsible for it not being fun to be a Star Wars fan anymore. I've blocked most Star Wars content these days. It's much easier to enjoy the new shows and games without the algorithm pandering hate.
I really like Eckhart's Ladder and Corey's Datapad; you should check them out.
It’s hard on YouTube with star wars, it’s even hard talking about it at the shop when you quickly find out half the people haven’t even watched anything star wars in years but have watched a bunch of YouTube about it.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Thank you, that video really hit me the wrong way
Got about 30 seconds into the video and had massive Déjà vu. He’s been making the same variation of that video for at least 8 years. On one hand, I respect this YouTubers commitment to the bit, on the other hand, find something you enjoy and make videos on that stuff. Probably wouldn’t generate the kind of clicks that doomtubing Disney does though.
With that said, Star Wars does suck more often than not, lately.
Edit: Even one of the recommended channels above is pretty down on Star Wars, judging by some of Echardts ladder video titles, lol
To bring things closer to the topic, just like I don't 3 different Ree Yees action figures in 3 scales with 3 different levels of articulation and detail...
I also do not need 2 Star Wars mini games in different scales. I want to kit bash with compatible models, I want my terrain to look right, and moving from 28mm to 40mm doesn't really add anything.
GW's 54mm Inquisitor game was basically dead on arrival where I was, except for painting. Even if the rules had been, y'know, good, no one was interested in making new terrain or trying to source 54mm lasguns. Yeah I had one buddy make a 54mm Chimera and full IG squad once the conversion packs were out, but that wasn't to play.
So when GW next did a skirmish/warband game they were sure to do it in 28mm.
Lego Star Wars seems to sell really well, maybe it's just that simple, compatible toys across the line. Who can also team up with Spider Man and Harry Potter to fight Lex Luther and save the Lego Friends pet shop.
I get the impression that it's a requirement that the Expand Universe is off limits. Only characters that have brought back in a slightly different way make an appearance. Disney is morally opposed to giving any money to Timothy Zhan and Alan Dean Foster after all. It's another reason way X-Wing ground to a halt: no reprints of the YT-2400 or the TIE Phantom for you!
lord_blackfang wrote: Yea X-wing had plenty of stuff from the old EU books and the clone wars cartoons even. Including the entire Scum faction.
Clone Wars isn't exactly EU though (or even close to it); the final season was made by (or under) Disney and the showrunner is now the creative head of the whole studio so I doubt it's remotely taboo. Huge chunks of the CIS & GAR models (as well as a lot of Scum as you say) in Legion and Shatterpoint are based on CW content. Unless you mean the Micro-Series of course...
All that stuff predates the Disney acquisition though. I'm not really down on the change, but I'm aware it's INCREDIBLY unlikely to see my beloved HWK show up again any time soon.
It’s possible there’s been a second license issued. We really don’t know. But I’m not sure anyone would pay for a license which allowed the property owner to just unilaterally alter what is and isn’t covered?
There was some sort of restriction from Disney/LF at some point over the EU stuff for licensed products. I think that's why we never got TIE Avengers in X-Wing, for example.
It's been gradually eroded as more and more EU stuff appears in more recent Disney shows. I think it's more that they don't want a "new" thing from their shows overshadowed by an appearance in a random miniatures game or video game before they get a chance to do it themselves.
LunarSol wrote: All that stuff predates the Disney acquisition though. I'm not really down on the change, but I'm aware it's INCREDIBLY unlikely to see my beloved HWK show up again any time soon.
It is technically within current canon (they show up on the Marvel Star Wars comics which are valid, if of inconsistent quality).
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Slipspace wrote: There was some sort of restriction from Disney/LF at some point over the EU stuff for licensed products. I think that's why we never got TIE Avengers in X-Wing, for example.
It's been gradually eroded as more and more EU stuff appears in more recent Disney shows. I think it's more that they don't want a "new" thing from their shows overshadowed by an appearance in a random miniatures game or video game before they get a chance to do it themselves.
Funnily enough there are units in Legion that have been made explicitly as original things (on paper) by AMG with LFL approval. The Riot Control Squad, whilst heavily influenced by the riot army troopers from Andor (and the stun-baton wielding scout troopers from Jedi Fallen Order which pre-date them and is its own example of licenced products being allowed some creativity) are, strictly speaking, original creations for the miniature game. There's a unit of Rebel troops coming later in the year which are similar in approach. Fleeting examples but they do happen.
lord_blackfang wrote: Yea X-wing had plenty of stuff from the old EU books and the clone wars cartoons even. Including the entire Scum faction.
Clone Wars isn't exactly EU though (or even close to it); the final season was made by (or under) Disney and the showrunner is now the creative head of the whole studio so I doubt it's remotely taboo. Huge chunks of the CIS & GAR models (as well as a lot of Scum as you say) in Legion and Shatterpoint are based on CW content. Unless you mean the Micro-Series of course...
E wing, K wing, Z-95, YT-2400, TIE defender/advanced/phantom/punisher, Hwk 290, and Star Viper just going off of my memory of both the old EU as well as X-Wing releases but there were probably more. I was very happy they expanded so deep into the EU lore for additional ships once the trilogy ones had models. My only regretis that they never made a TIE Predator.
lord_blackfang wrote: Yea X-wing had plenty of stuff from the old EU books and the clone wars cartoons even. Including the entire Scum faction.
Clone Wars isn't exactly EU though (or even close to it); the final season was made by (or under) Disney and the showrunner is now the creative head of the whole studio so I doubt it's remotely taboo. Huge chunks of the CIS & GAR models (as well as a lot of Scum as you say) in Legion and Shatterpoint are based on CW content. Unless you mean the Micro-Series of course...
E wing, K wing, Z-95, YT-2400, TIE defender/advanced/phantom/punisher, Hwk 290, and Star Viper just going off of my memory of both the old EU as well as X-Wing releases but there were probably more. I was very happy they expanded so deep into the EU lore for additional ships once the trilogy ones had models. My only regretis that they never made a TIE Predator.
I haven't checked specifically, but I think that entire list of originally EU (aka non-canon "Legends")ships have all been made "Canon" via appearances in some sort of Start Wars media post 2014. I think allot of folks don't realize that almost anything (though not quite everything) published post 2014 is Canon and tons of the best stuff from the EU/Legends has been reintroduced that way.
I haven't checked specifically, but I think that entire list of originally EU (aka non-canon "Legends")ships have all been made "Canon" via appearances in some sort of Start Wars media post 2014. I think allot of folks don't realize that almost anything (though not quite everything) published post 2014 is Canon and tons of the best stuff from the EU/Legends has been reintroduced that way.
Quite possible. I haven't really followed Disney Star Wars as closely as I'd have expected but I do recall seeing an E-wing I think land on a highway in front of a speeder during an Ashokha show trailer. That said.. I'd be more interested in how many were still only EU whether before or after the culling by Disney when they appeared in the game.
Expanded Universe spaceships are different to EU characters, though. A vessel can fit in with whatever Disney's story is now, since all it does is fly around and shoot things. If you tried to add, say, Mara Jade to a skirmish game though, you'd have people asking questions.
Shakalooloo wrote: Expanded Universe spaceships are different to EU characters, though. A vessel can fit in with whatever Disney's story is now, since all it does is fly around and shoot things. If you tried to add, say, Mara Jade to a skirmish game though, you'd have people asking questions.
I have questions... . One of three different ones they released for that skirmish game though admittedly that's was before.the Disney Dark Times.
Shakalooloo wrote: Expanded Universe spaceships are different to EU characters, though. A vessel can fit in with whatever Disney's story is now, since all it does is fly around and shoot things. If you tried to add, say, Mara Jade to a skirmish game though, you'd have people asking questions.
That’s a good point there. Hardware and settings are one thing, characters potentially another. But then again, in terms of broader license holders I’m fairly sure Hasbro has continued to produce the odd Old EU figure?
LunarSol wrote: All that stuff predates the Disney acquisition though. I'm not really down on the change, but I'm aware it's INCREDIBLY unlikely to see my beloved HWK show up again any time soon.
It is technically within current canon (they show up on the Marvel Star Wars comics which are valid, if of inconsistent quality).
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Slipspace wrote: There was some sort of restriction from Disney/LF at some point over the EU stuff for licensed products. I think that's why we never got TIE Avengers in X-Wing, for example.
It's been gradually eroded as more and more EU stuff appears in more recent Disney shows. I think it's more that they don't want a "new" thing from their shows overshadowed by an appearance in a random miniatures game or video game before they get a chance to do it themselves.
Funnily enough there are units in Legion that have been made explicitly as original things (on paper) by AMG with LFL approval. The Riot Control Squad, whilst heavily influenced by the riot army troopers from Andor (and the stun-baton wielding scout troopers from Jedi Fallen Order which pre-date them and is its own example of licenced products being allowed some creativity) are, strictly speaking, original creations for the miniature game. There's a unit of Rebel troops coming later in the year which are similar in approach. Fleeting examples but they do happen.
The Shore Trooper Mortar unit for Legion, and Imperial Raider for X-Wing were also original creations that FFG made with LFL's blessing.
LunarSol wrote: All that stuff predates the Disney acquisition though. I'm not really down on the change, but I'm aware it's INCREDIBLY unlikely to see my beloved HWK show up again any time soon.
It is technically within current canon (they show up on the Marvel Star Wars comics which are valid, if of inconsistent quality).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote: There was some sort of restriction from Disney/LF at some point over the EU stuff for licensed products. I think that's why we never got TIE Avengers in X-Wing, for example.
It's been gradually eroded as more and more EU stuff appears in more recent Disney shows. I think it's more that they don't want a "new" thing from their shows overshadowed by an appearance in a random miniatures game or video game before they get a chance to do it themselves.
Funnily enough there are units in Legion that have been made explicitly as original things (on paper) by AMG with LFL approval. The Riot Control Squad, whilst heavily influenced by the riot army troopers from Andor (and the stun-baton wielding scout troopers from Jedi Fallen Order which pre-date them and is its own example of licenced products being allowed some creativity) are, strictly speaking, original creations for the miniature game. There's a unit of Rebel troops coming later in the year which are similar in approach. Fleeting examples but they do happen.
The Shore Trooper Mortar unit for Legion, and Imperial Raider for X-Wing were also original creations that FFG made with LFL's blessing.
quite a bit in legion, the swamp speeders extra weapons, the riot trooper where a pretty original creation
Shakalooloo wrote: Expanded Universe spaceships are different to EU characters, though. A vessel can fit in with whatever Disney's story is now, since all it does is fly around and shoot things. If you tried to add, say, Mara Jade to a skirmish game though, you'd have people asking questions.
That’s a good point there. Hardware and settings are one thing, characters potentially another. But then again, in terms of broader license holders I’m fairly sure Hasbro has continued to produce the odd Old EU figure?
They still regularly reprint EU books and comics too. I suspect the issue is more having them mix with their own stuff.
There's still a fair bit of ground to cover in Shatterpoint though. If all of this years releases were just filling the gaps in the current timeline then ending it after that would make some sort of sense. But they've only just started doing sequel trilogy characters.
LunarSol wrote: Star Wars in particular has become such a focal point for a really awful section of the internet. Honestly they're largely responsible for it not being fun to be a Star Wars fan anymore. I've blocked most Star Wars content these days. It's much easier to enjoy the new shows and games without the algorithm pandering hate.
I really like Eckhart's Ladder and Corey's Datapad; you should check them out.
I haven't checked specifically, but I think that entire list of originally EU (aka non-canon "Legends")ships have all been made "Canon" via appearances in some sort of Start Wars media post 2014. I think allot of folks don't realize that almost anything (though not quite everything) published post 2014 is Canon and tons of the best stuff from the EU/Legends has been reintroduced that way.
Quite possible. I haven't really followed Disney Star Wars as closely as I'd have expected but I do recall seeing an E-wing I think land on a highway in front of a speeder during an Ashokha show trailer. That said.. I'd be more interested in how many were still only EU whether before or after the culling by Disney when they appeared in the game.
My suspicion would be that they were all Cannon before they were included in the game. I could be wrong. FFG was not completely limited by cannon. After all, Imperial Assault had characters unique to it.
As long as you know when a given ship was introduced to X-Wing, you can find out for yourself what it's status was when introduced into the game. Just go to "Wookiepedia". At the top of the article it will show if a given vehicle has Cannon and/or Legends appearances and at the bottom of each Cannon or Legends section there will be references of it's appearances.
WoTC's Star Wars Miniatures game ran from 2004-2010. Uses lots of what is now "Legends" but it predates that designation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Miniatures I do still want a Mara Jade miniature.
My suspicion would be that they were all Cannon before they were included in the game. I could be wrong. FFG was not completely limited by cannon. After all, Imperial Assault had characters unique to it.
Just using my E-wing example, it came out in 2014 for X-wing as part of wave 4 and it's first canon appearance is listed as a comic in 2018. Obviously, it's actual first (EU) appearance was back in the 1990s.
WoTC's Star Wars Miniatures game ran from 2004-2010. Uses lots of what is now "Legends" but it predates that designation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Miniatures I do still want a Mara Jade miniature.
The old WOTC game has 3-4 (depending on if you count the reissue as a fourth) but they weren't great. I have zero doubt that there are very nice 3d printed sculpts available cheaper and better looking than the old prepaints.
My suspicion would be that they were all Cannon before they were included in the game. I could be wrong. FFG was not completely limited by cannon. After all, Imperial Assault had characters unique to it.
Basically, there's an approval process for EVERYTHING created. It doesn't matter if the X-Wing is obviously cannon, Disney has to approve the lengths of the S-Foils and direction the of the wiring on everything produced. FFG had just gotten to a point where they felt comfortable with the process to try things that weren't taken from existing sources and built up enough trust to get them approved.
Basically, there's an approval process for EVERYTHING created. It doesn't matter if the X-Wing is obviously cannon, Disney has to approve the lengths of the S-Foils and direction the of the wiring on everything produced. FFG had just gotten to a point where they felt comfortable with the process to try things that weren't taken from existing sources and built up enough trust to get them approved.
Agreed and also, after a couple of waves, they were also quite literally running out of ships from the OT and weren't ready to move onto the prequels just yet. There were basically only a half dozen ships suitable for fighter combat scale for each major side in the Galactic civil war onscreen from the OT.
My suspicion would be that they were all Cannon before they were included in the game. I could be wrong. FFG was not completely limited by cannon. After all, Imperial Assault had characters unique to it.
Basically, there's an approval process for EVERYTHING created. It doesn't matter if the X-Wing is obviously cannon, Disney has to approve the lengths of the S-Foils and direction the of the wiring on everything produced. FFG had just gotten to a point where they felt comfortable with the process to try things that weren't taken from existing sources and built up enough trust to get them approved.
Its what happened with Sidious and legion, they didnt know how to fit him into second edition and didnt think the apporval process he was worth it.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Maybe Shatterpoint could have gone into Legends. Lot of cool stuff there.
My biggest regret about Shatterpoint ceasing production is that we didn't get anything from the KOTOR games. I know it's highly unlikely we would have, given the licence....but still.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Maybe Shatterpoint could have gone into Legends. Lot of cool stuff there.
My biggest regret about Shatterpoint ceasing production is that we didn't get anything from the KOTOR games. I know it's highly unlikely we would have given the licence....but still.
My suspicion would be that they were all Cannon before they were included in the game. I could be wrong. FFG was not completely limited by cannon. After all, Imperial Assault had characters unique to it.
Just using my E-wing example, it came out in 2014 for X-wing as part of wave 4 and it's first canon appearance is listed as a comic in 2018. Obviously, it's actual first (EU) appearance was back in the 1990s.
That makes sense. I didn't realize that X-Wing predated the 2014 division between Cannon-and-not. When X-Wing was started in 2012, everything was "canon" by default. Anything released from 2012-2014 was likely proposed and approved before the 2014 division. I have no idea what canon-and-not ships were released after 2014, but it makes sense that a game that already included non-cannon ships would continue to do so.
My suspicion would be that they were all Cannon before they were included in the game. I could be wrong. FFG was not completely limited by cannon. After all, Imperial Assault had characters unique to it.
Basically, there's an approval process for EVERYTHING created. It doesn't matter if the X-Wing is obviously cannon, Disney has to approve the lengths of the S-Foils and direction the of the wiring on everything produced. FFG had just gotten to a point where they felt comfortable with the process to try things that weren't taken from existing sources and built up enough trust to get them approved.
Its what happened with Sidious and legion, they didnt know how to fit him into second edition and didnt think the apporval process he was worth it.
From what I'd gathered (from the little they'd discuss it), it was LFL who didn't want them to put Palpatine in the second edition for.... reasons(?) as opposed to an AMG decision but we'll probably never really know. At least they've given his special ability to Tarkin.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Maybe Shatterpoint could have gone into Legends. Lot of cool stuff there.
My biggest regret about Shatterpoint ceasing production is that we didn't get anything from the KOTOR games. I know it's highly unlikely we would have, given the licence....but still.
There was an outside chance given the remake is apparently still on track (so Saber promise at every opportunity...) and Revan and co. have at least appeared in mobile games and the like under Disney's watch.
Star Wars used to be a very popular science fiction series however in recent years many fans complain it has become too politically correct or "woke". Lately they prefer less political series such as Space 1999, Buck Rogers and Star Trek.
That's what I get for wasting my time reading 25 year novels based on 40 year old adventures.
And then writing about it.
Looney Tunes was pivotal in teaching generations of children around the world to always take the left turn at Albuquerque. Perhaps if FFG and now AMG had spent their valuable Saturday mornings watching educational shows like that and/or the Ewoks cartoon then Shatterpoint coulda been something... it coulda been a contender!
Tabletop_Magpie wrote: UK Folks, we're seeing some crazy discounts on Shatterpoint stuff now. I just bought the Ground Cover Terrain Pack for £15 from... sportsdirect.
The core set is almost half price from Dark Sphere I think?!
Yeah, and lots of squad packs half price (25 quid) at Megalopolis.
And I'm a bit sad we probably won't get an Aphra + Droids box. Though I do still have the droids minis from Imperial Assault.
.
As a subniche community,we've been a catty bunch since the old bbs days.
