mikhaila wrote:


If the intention it just to stop shops direct-ordering on behalf of shops that they can't, it'd be caught under the "no reselling" part of the conditions i.e. sales are to end users only, not other customers. So I don't buy that line of reasoning.

The other thing is that even though this rule is in place but "probably" won't be used, it makes things difficult for shops that order in well over that limit regularly, as their business relies on GW letting them away with an obvious breach of policy. Whilst GW may not care, they may use it as an excuse to hurt a store they feel is doing too well or when they feel strategic advantage (like they are opening up a GW store in town). It means there's always the risk that that revenue stream will be taken off them at any notice, so even taking pre-orders becomes risky as you might suddenly be unable to get the stock.[

Catching a store re-selling direct product is always going to be difficult. Having the filtre of 500.00 a month helps that. Its the same reason I have a sign saying "We reserve the right to limit sales on certain products". People look at it and get confused. But there are times when having one customer scoop up all your stock on one item is bad for business. The sign is there for when we need it, so is the rule of 500.00 from GW.

As to a 'breach of policy', it isn't. The policy is GW's. It can be amended or changed at anytime. Any store dealing with GW easily knows where they stand. You have a sales rep to talk to you, and have a relationship with them. Its part of doing business. You know whether or not you can exceed that limit.

And frankly, there are probably less than half a dozen stores in the US that are going to exceed that 500.00 limit on a regular basis. This limit affects online sales mostly, not brick and mortar sales.

Besides Miniwargaming, who has anyone heard actually complain about this rule and claim that it cost them business? Large brick and mortar stores that can sell more than 500.00 in direct orders aren't affected. Their sales rep knows their sales numbers, and knows the store. The orders get placed. I haven't ever worried about selling too many GW models.

Larger stores are also generally higher level stockists. The terms of the stockist program give benefits that non stockists don't get. (Old news, been that way for decades in one form or another.) One aspect of that is yours sales rep having a lot of leeway in how much of a limited product you get. I was quite happy selling over a hundred copies of Space Hulk.

This is really a non-issue. The main problem for miniwargaming is that they are now affected by the North American trade policies, which didn't affect them when it was "US trade policies".

so if the policy is old hat, i have to ask the question, what would you do if GW opened a store nearby and your friendly rep went, sorry 500$ limit enforced, none of this none of that, all those rules that we werent enforcing well now that your close and direct competition, well now we will? because as much as they dont HAVE to do it, the moment head office want to they will.... and i imagine it would squeeze pretty tight, because GW hates competition...

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:


If the intention it just to stop shops direct-ordering on behalf of shops that they can't, it'd be caught under the "no reselling" part of the conditions i.e. sales are to end users only, not other customers. So I don't buy that line of reasoning.

The other thing is that even though this rule is in place but "probably" won't be used, it makes things difficult for shops that order in well over that limit regularly, as their business relies on GW letting them away with an obvious breach of policy. Whilst GW may not care, they may use it as an excuse to hurt a store they feel is doing too well or when they feel strategic advantage (like they are opening up a GW store in town). It means there's always the risk that that revenue stream will be taken off them at any notice, so even taking pre-orders becomes risky as you might suddenly be unable to get the stock.[

Catching a store re-selling direct product is always going to be difficult. Having the filtre of 500.00 a month helps that. Its the same reason I have a sign saying "We reserve the right to limit sales on certain products". People look at it and get confused. But there are times when having one customer scoop up all your stock on one item is bad for business. The sign is there for when we need it, so is the rule of 500.00 from GW.

As to a 'breach of policy', it isn't. The policy is GW's. It can be amended or changed at anytime. Any store dealing with GW easily knows where they stand. You have a sales rep to talk to you, and have a relationship with them. Its part of doing business. You know whether or not you can exceed that limit.

And frankly, there are probably less than half a dozen stores in the US that are going to exceed that 500.00 limit on a regular basis. This limit affects online sales mostly, not brick and mortar sales.

Besides Miniwargaming, who has anyone heard actually complain about this rule and claim that it cost them business? Large brick and mortar stores that can sell more than 500.00 in direct orders aren't affected. Their sales rep knows their sales numbers, and knows the store. The orders get placed. I haven't ever worried about selling too many GW models.

Larger stores are also generally higher level stockists. The terms of the stockist program give benefits that non stockists don't get. (Old news, been that way for decades in one form or another.) One aspect of that is yours sales rep having a lot of leeway in how much of a limited product you get. I was quite happy selling over a hundred copies of Space Hulk.

This is really a non-issue. The main problem for miniwargaming is that they are now affected by the North American trade policies, which didn't affect them when it was "US trade policies".

so if the policy is old hat, i have to ask the question, what would you do if GW opened a store nearby and your friendly rep went, sorry 500$ limit enforced, none of this none of that, all those rules that we werent enforcing well now that your close and direct competition, well now we will? because as much as they dont HAVE to do it, the moment head office want to they will.... and i imagine it would squeeze pretty tight, because GW hates competition...

Well, I've had GW stores near me for about 2 decades, so not really worried. They open and close and move them in the Philly metro, and yet my stores are still around after 25 years. I've visited them often, worked with them a bit, bought one of the locations they closed, and hired some of their ex managers and employees.

And not too worried about it.
1) They make more money off my stores than they do off of their own stores.
2) I have far better GW stores than GW does. 12 tables vs 2. More painted miniatures on display, more events, weekly painting classes, etc. I've studied their stores for years and worked with them. The answer to a GW store opening across the street is to kick their ass at their own business model, let them train up a nice crowd of new players, and then let the players decide where they want to spend their money. I carry far more cool stuff than a GW store can, since I don't have their restrictions. I can also introduce all those new players they create to other games.
3) Trade Sales is not Retail. They are separate parts of the company. My sales rep doesn't have any connection to GW retail and is more worried about what I order than what they sell.
4) GW is motivated by money. A GW store will not be profitable if it opens up near me.

Your right, GW does hate competition. I'm not competition, I sell their stuff and make them money, and promote their games the way they do in their own stores. Scratch that, make it, 'in their own bunkers'.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And just so we are all on the same page, that 500.00 is at wholesale, not retail. So roughly 800.00 in special orders per month.

I'm just speculating but ...

It seems to me that GW is really looking to cut out the retailer completely. Once they have opened up 800 new stores in the US - which Kirby has claimed is his plan - what would stop them from just cancelling trade accounts all together? Or even amending the trade agreement to something like a franchise?

I wonder if GW is imposing the ban in relation to the CH lawsuit. They may want to show that selling bits, even from their own kits, is costing them business.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
I'm just speculating but ...

It seems to me that GW is really looking to cut out the retailer completely. Once they have opened up 800 new stores in the US - which Kirby has claimed is his plan - what would stop them from just cancelling trade accounts all together? Or even amending the trade agreement to something like a franchise?

That would go tits up faster then a goldfish in bleach.

Especially with all the stores converting to have no game space what so ever. Forcing people out of stores and telling them to find their own means just adds another barrier between customers and GWs ivory tower.

Yet GW has shown that barriers between customers and the ivory tower is not currently a concern. Direct only sales is a prime example as it is forcing the customer to figure out what supplier they have to go to obtain a given model.

I can see GW starting by pushing more and more to direct only so it gets to the point where the FLGS decides its not worth the bother to stock GW. IF the FLGS goes out of business due to not carrying GW, well GW can say they didn't drive them out, it was the store's decision.

Just to point out the obvious:

1) 800 stores is a silly number. That's 40 a year for 20 years. They barely expand at 1/10th of that rate.

2) Its something to say to make the stock look desirable. "We will conquer the US market".

3) Brits have sucked at taking over the US market. Failed in 1776 and 1812. Mildly successful with the Beatles.

4) GW have tried to "expand into the US market" 3 times before. They expand for a few years, then contract and change the plan.

5) US Trade sales is very Profitable for GW. GW loves money. Stores take a large investment and aren't always profitable. I'm sure you can all follow the logic from there.

 mikhaila wrote:
3) Brits have sucked at taking over the US market. Failed in 1776 and 1812. Mildly successful with the Beatles.

Harry Potter, Simon Cowell, the World Wide Web

 mikhaila wrote:
3) Brits have sucked at taking over the US market. Failed in 1776 and 1812.

Really? You going to get your gun and start taking pot shots at the local GW store to ensure they don't take your country over?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
3) Brits have sucked at taking over the US market. Failed in 1776 and 1812.

Really? You going to get your gun and start taking pot shots at the local GW store to ensure they don't take your country over?

liturgies, if you are serious, click the spoiler. Otherwise, nevermind.


Of all the folks on here with experience with trade sales, I would trust mikhaila on this the most. GW is not about to try to eliminate all FLGS from the US anytime soon.

 Flashman wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
3) Brits have sucked at taking over the US market. Failed in 1776 and 1812. Mildly successful with the Beatles.

Harry Potter, Simon Cowell, the World Wide Web

linsey dawn mckenzie

Jokes? Oh yeah, I get jokes!

 mikhaila wrote:
As to a 'breach of policy', it isn't. The policy is GW's. It can be amended or changed at anytime. Any store dealing with GW easily knows where they stand. You have a sales rep to talk to you, and have a relationship with them. Its part of doing business. You know whether or not you can exceed that limit.

Just like you know whether or not there's a new book coming out, and whether or not you're going to be able to order it...?

 mikhaila wrote:
Just to point out the obvious:

3) Brits have sucked at taking over the US market. Failed in 1776 and 1812. Mildly successful with the Beatles.

Just reminds me of another British company that is dealing with a major market failure right now:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-fresh-easy-woes-20130321,0,197757.story

Tesco lost $2 Billion US on their attempt to enter the US market with the Fresh and Easy chain. I actually shopped at the stores and like some of the stuff, but were a bit too out of the way for me.

 insaniak wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
As to a 'breach of policy', it isn't. The policy is GW's. It can be amended or changed at anytime. Any store dealing with GW easily knows where they stand. You have a sales rep to talk to you, and have a relationship with them. Its part of doing business. You know whether or not you can exceed that limit.

Just like you know whether or not there's a new book coming out, and whether or not you're going to be able to order it...?

Oooh, too soon.

 mikhaila wrote:

And frankly, there are probably less than half a dozen stores in the US that are going to exceed that 500.00 limit on a regular basis. This limit affects online sales mostly, not brick and mortar sales.

I'm not sure if I believe that given the discussions I've had with the owner of my FLGS and what I believe are considered direct only items. He's told me in the past that he did close to that amount on metal models that are what I believe would now be considered direct only ("did", he doesn't carry much GW stuff anymore other than traded goods) and he is far from a large store.

 mikhaila wrote:
Just to point out the obvious:

3) Brits have sucked at taking over the US market. Failed in 1776 and 1812. Mildly successful with the Beatles.

Just to be clear in 1812 the U.S tried to take over our market first and we kicked you out haha.

 Veriamp wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
Just to point out the obvious:

3) Brits have sucked at taking over the US market. Failed in 1776 and 1812. Mildly successful with the Beatles.

Just to be clear in 1812 the U.S tried to take over our market first and we kicked you out haha.

And sent burna boyz to the whitehouse. Damn thing hasn't worked right since.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
As to a 'breach of policy', it isn't. The policy is GW's. It can be amended or changed at anytime. Any store dealing with GW easily knows where they stand. You have a sales rep to talk to you, and have a relationship with them. Its part of doing business. You know whether or not you can exceed that limit.

Just like you know whether or not there's a new book coming out, and whether or not you're going to be able to order it...?

Who needs GW for that. Got Dakka.

 mikhaila wrote:

 Veriamp wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
Just to point out the obvious:

3) Brits have sucked at taking over the US market. Failed in 1776 and 1812. Mildly successful with the Beatles.

Just to be clear in 1812 the U.S tried to take over our market first and we kicked you out haha.

And sent burna boyz to the whitehouse. Damn thing hasn't worked right since.

and to be double clear, the only reason the british did that is because they were lazy, and really didn't want to prosecute a fight, so they just went and burnt down the whitehouse because it was the closest thing they could get at, not because it was actually worth anything beyond a warning to the rest of the coast.... it wasn't a strategic fight, just an incredibly lazy one.

speaking of lazy: I recently watched MWG's video again, and it's clear that matt was having a hard time reigning himself under control, and he had a valid point about GW trying to sweep all bad PR under the rug. I'm waiting with rapt attention for the price rise when the fireworks go off again and the looneys come out to set fire to their red shirts....

 poda_t wrote:

speaking of lazy: I recently watched MWG's video again, and it's clear that matt was having a hard time reigning himself under control, and he had a valid point about GW trying to sweep all bad PR under the rug. I'm waiting with rapt attention for the price rise when the fireworks go off again and the looneys come out to set fire to their red shirts....

Is that in this thread, or should I be looking elsewhere?

 poda_t wrote:


speaking of lazy: I recently watched MWG's video again, and it's clear that matt was having a hard time reigning himself under control, and he had a valid point about GW trying to sweep all bad PR under the rug. I'm waiting with rapt attention for the price rise when the fireworks go off again and the looneys come out to set fire to their red shirts....

I noticed that too, he nearly lets a f-bomb and a R-tard out a few times.

Really what Im enjoying/loathing is the white knights and GW employees reasoning. Its as if GW really cannot possibly do any wrong. I kind of want to meet one in person and see the dead soulless gaze they have.

Silly question that may have been answered previously, forgive me for not wanting to read 30 pages. Wouldn't such a clause violate the right of first sale? At least in the US. Supposedly it means that once you purchase something you can do with it as you like baring a violation of copyright or something. I believe the Supreme Court just settled a case on this relating to text books. Obviously, not directly analogous.

Simple answer: Not really.
Long Answer: 30 page thread.

Middle Answer: They aren't really the same thing.

Sarge wrote:
Silly question that may have been answered previously, forgive me for not wanting to read 30 pages. Wouldn't such a clause violate the right of first sale? At least in the US. Supposedly it means that once you purchase something you can do with it as you like baring a violation of copyright or something. I believe the Supreme Court just settled a case on this relating to text books. Obviously, not directly analogous.

It's been discussed in this thread already, and no it wouldn't because you as the consumer are not affected by this

Orktavius wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
The direct only argument for the most part is total BS...it's a damn smokescreen that people like to throw about as if all those products are hot selling merchandise that the hobby community wants a non-stop stock of at every store. Nearly EVERYTHING on the direct order list is old metal models, single characters or slow selling stock.

Yeah, its almost like we didn't have a FLGS owner come out just last week saying that he sold thousands of dollars of direct only and that that measure hurt his business and his ability to supply his customers in a really big way...

Yup...that WEBSTORE called MINIWARGAMING.COM sure did sell $5000 worth of it OVER THE INTERNET. Thank you for proving my point as that is $5000 that could have gone to many different LOCAL independents and is the very reason why GW is changing their trade agreement. This isn't going after E-bay resellers, once you own your model you can do what you want with it and with it's bits. Who they are going after are companies like miniwargaming or the warstore or other online retailers

The warstore IS a physical store (and miniature market for that matter). They have several locations. Unlike your typical poorly run local gaming store full, they changed with the times, have an online presence, and offer a discount to compete. Any game store should have an online branch to get more than foot traffic through whatever strip center they're in.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

Orktavius wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
The direct only argument for the most part is total BS...it's a damn smokescreen that people like to throw about as if all those products are hot selling merchandise that the hobby community wants a non-stop stock of at every store. Nearly EVERYTHING on the direct order list is old metal models, single characters or slow selling stock.

Yeah, its almost like we didn't have a FLGS owner come out just last week saying that he sold thousands of dollars of direct only and that that measure hurt his business and his ability to supply his customers in a really big way...

Yup...that WEBSTORE called MINIWARGAMING.COM sure did sell $5000 worth of it OVER THE INTERNET. Thank you for proving my point as that is $5000 that could have gone to many different LOCAL independents and is the very reason why GW is changing their trade agreement. This isn't going after E-bay resellers, once you own your model you can do what you want with it and with it's bits. Who they are going after are companies like miniwargaming or the warstore or other online retailers

The warstore IS a physical store (and miniature market for that matter). They have several locations. Unlike your typical poorly run local gaming store full, they changed with the times, have an online presence, and offer a discount to compete. Any game store should have an online branch to get more than foot traffic through whatever strip center they're in.

actually, I always forget to bring this up. Sentry box, while it doesn't have a webstore, puts their entire product catalogue on the web (unfriendly text format) and anyone from anywhere can call, hand over their credit card info, and wait for a box from them in the mail. I wonder how no selling out of country will impact them since they didn't have a fancy webstore like MWG or warstore, but I'm positive they did orders across the continent.

GW has very little way of actually controlling it. They would need proof of sales.

Then there is middle man shippers. Its actually pretty cool. You place orders with their address, and once they have it its shipped to you. It doesnt even cost that much. And considering the difference in buying an army here and buying an army from the warstore is the difference of $250 dollars, its well worth the little you pay extra.

 Ravenous D wrote:
GW has very little way of actually controlling it. They would need proof of sales.

Then there is middle man shippers. Its actually pretty cool. You place orders with their address, and once they have it its shipped to you. It doesnt even cost that much. And considering the difference in buying an army here and buying an army from the warstore is the difference of $250 dollars, its well worth the little you pay extra.

Actually all that they would need was to pass as a bogus buyer from out of country, and as the CHS case as shown they are not above such tactics.

Well thats the thing, the second it gets sent to the middle man shipper the store selling the goods is completely fine. They open the shipping box reseal it and then ship it again. Short of GW writing in "no selling to addresses known for shipping across borders." into the next trade agreement, even then, how the shiz are they supposed to know? Thats the entire point of the service.

That's not true. If GW suspects that the store with the trade agreement is shipping to a reseller (ie the middle man) they can pull the trade agreement even if no one at the store knows about it.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Well thats the thing, the second it gets sent to the middle man shipper the store selling the goods is completely fine. They open the shipping box reseal it and then ship it again. Short of GW writing in "no selling to addresses known for shipping across borders." into the next trade agreement, even then, how the shiz are they supposed to know? Thats the entire point of the service.

Batch number on the box and see who it was dispatched to, one mystery shopper is all it takes to track a re-seller down.
Bitz would be a lot harder.

rigeld2 wrote:
That's not true. If GW suspects that the store with the trade agreement is shipping to a reseller (ie the middle man) they can pull the trade agreement even if no one at the store knows about it.

Yea, I was wondering what all this "proof" talk was about. GW doesn't need proof of anything to pull a trade account.

You guys are missing the important part.

The seller has no idea the goods he is sending is going to this shipping service. I can do it through GWUS is I wanted to ffs, what are they going to do? Shut themselves down?

GW cannot refuse to sell to a random address. Its no different then getting a friend is the US to buy something and send it to me.

 Ravenous D wrote:
You guys are missing the important part.

The seller has no idea the goods he is sending is going to this shipping service. I can do it through GWUS is I wanted to ffs, what are they going to do? Shut themselves down?

The seller doesn't have to know. GW can test if they feel like it but if they simply suspect it they can pull the agreement, no proof required.

And if you're buying straight from GW they don't care - you're not "saving" money.

GW cannot refuse to sell to a random address. Its no different then getting a friend is the US to buy something and send it to me.

They absolutely can refuse.

 Ravenous D wrote:
You guys are missing the important part.

The seller has no idea the goods he is sending is going to this shipping service. I can do it through GWUS is I wanted to ffs, what are they going to do? Shut themselves down?

GW cannot refuse to sell to a random address. Its no different then getting a friend is the US to buy something and send it to me.

1. From what I understand, the seller doesn't need to know to have their trade account shut down.

2. Yes, you could do it through GW, but you will have to live with worse prices and...

3. Even buying direct from GW they CAN refuse to sell to a random address. I'm sure they won't refuse to sell to "Bob Brown, New Jersey", but they might refuse to sell to "Big Bob's House of Miniatures, New Jersey" or they might refuse to sell to "Bob Brown, New Jersey" if Mr. Brown has bought 10 sets of Devastators in the past month and suspect him of being a reseller and/or exporter.

 Ravenous D wrote:
You guys are missing the important part.

The seller has no idea the goods he is sending is going to this shipping service. I can do it through GWUS is I wanted to ffs, what are they going to do? Shut themselves down?

GW cannot refuse to sell to a random address. Its no different then getting a friend is the US to buy something and send it to me.

It's vey different. Very. Your friend actually makes a purchase, then receives reimbursement from you, then sends you the package. As GW saw it, your American friend was the end user, and GW won't care about a few times this happens. Now if he decides to make. Business of it, GW won't be selling to him anymore....

And you don't seem to be familiar with contract law. All purchases/sales fall under contract law, which is the implicit agreement that you want to exchange currency for goods, with a number of other cavets included on the deal. GW is NOT a federal institution, and hence is NOT required to provide you with services, and can hence choose to not enter into a contract witht you. If GW has reason to suspect your violation of their policies, or simply don't like the way your face looks, they can choose not to sell To you, and have mall security remove you from their store...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


3. Even buying direct from GW they CAN refuse to sell to a random address. I'm sure they won't refuse to sell to "Bob Brown, New Jersey", but they might refuse to sell to "Big Bob's House of Miniatures, New Jersey" or they might refuse to sell to "Bob Brown, New Jersey" if Mr. Brown has bought 10 sets of Devastators in the past month and suspect him of being a reseller and/or exporter.

Yet ore reason to think that GW is going to put painters under stress, and maybe put a few of them under.

rigeld2 wrote:

And if you're buying straight from GW they don't care - you're not "saving" money.

.

Incorrect,

Canadian prices are 20 to 50% higher then the US ones. Aussies can use this same service to save a huge amount of money, instead of paying $65 for 1 pot of paint as it currently is (seriously look it up) they can use the shipper service to get it from GWUS for less and ship it to australia for much much cheaper.

For example, I tallied up a space marine army and it would cost me $650 + tax here, I could get it from the Warstore for $400, using the shipping service I avoid GWs border guards and I just saved $200+ dollars.

 Ravenous D wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

And if you're buying straight from GW they don't care - you're not "saving" money.

.

Incorrect,

Canadian prices are 20 to 50% higher then the US ones. Aussies can use this same service to save a huge amount of money, instead of paying $65 for 1 pot of paint as it currently is (seriously look it up) they can use the shipper service to get it from GWUS for less and ship it to australia for much much cheaper.

For example, I tallied up a space marine army and it would cost me $650 + tax here, I could get it from the Warstore for $400, using the shipping service I avoid GWs border guards and I just saved $200+ dollars.

Yes, and the shipper service is the one who's going to be in GW's crosshairs. They don't even have to chase down every single exporter, just shut down a few and all of a sudden it will become much harder to find exporters and resellers.

How are they going to touch the exporter? What they do is perfectly legal, they can order from any store in the US and ship to anywhere in the world. GW cant legally do anything against them unless plastic models sudden became narcotics or firearms...

They don't need to touch them,

all the need to do (and they will do it) is to stop selling them product at trade discount, or potentially at all

 Ravenous D wrote:
How are they going to touch the exporter? What they do is perfectly legal, they can order from any store in the US and ship to anywhere in the world. GW cant legally do anything against them unless plastic models sudden became narcotics or firearms...

If there's an exporter and GW suspects them, they can choose not to sell to them.
There's no legal issue here - they are not legally required to sell to any individual.

 Ravenous D wrote:
How are they going to touch the exporter? What they do is perfectly legal, they can order from any store in the US and ship to anywhere in the world. GW cant legally do anything against them unless plastic models sudden became narcotics or firearms...

It's not illegal but it's not protected. In the EU parallel trade is legally protected by a few treaties not between US/Canada.
GW can refuse to sell to stockists who allow for parallel trade, EVERY drug company does the same. Notice the efforts put in to stop drugs crossing the canadian boarder by pfizer etc.
The reason they can do it without any issues is that they put it into their contracts and nothing is illegal about that.

 Ravenous D wrote:
How are they going to touch the exporter? What they do is perfectly legal, they can order from any store in the US and ship to anywhere in the world. GW cant legally do anything against them unless plastic models sudden became narcotics or firearms...

They can legally do what they like with the product once they have it, but GW reserve the right to stop supplying them and stop supplying the stores that supply them. Now, I don't expect GW to chase every single exporter and reseller, but all they need to do is catch one or two and stop their supply source and place them on a blacklist and all of a sudden those exporters are going to have a much harder time getting the stock to export.

That's why I said if 'Bob" buys some boxed sets then nothing is going to happen, he can export the couple of boxed sets he bought no worries. But if Bob has a business and is buying under the business' name, GW can refuse sale and could even blacklist him to make other retailers less likely to sell to Bob because they don't want to lose their trade account thanks to Bob. Even if Bob doesn't have an organised business name that he buys under, if he's buying extremely large amounts at a time, he may find himself black listed. Now Bob COULD spread those purchases out across multiple stores and such and I think that'd work fine, but given GW doesn't allow 3rd party online sales either, it's a lot more leg work for Bob to get his stock.

The way I see it, GW aren't trying to completely eliminate exporters and resellers, that's almost impossible, and they aren't trying to take legal action against exporters and resellers, they really have no grounds for legal action. What they, IMO, are trying to do is make it far less convenient for people to export and sell bits and even compete with GW direct. So that when Mr. Australian wants to import a boxed set from the US, he has to spend far longer digging around to find someone who will sell to him and it will probably cost him more in the process (since it's less convenient for the exporters they'll probably raise prices) thus making it less viable to import models from cheaper markets. Likewise making it harder and more expensive to get bits. Likewise making it harder for your average 3rd party company to compete with GW direct.

 Flashman wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
3) Brits have sucked at taking over the US market. Failed in 1776 and 1812. Mildly successful with the Beatles.

Harry Potter, Simon Cowell, the World Wide Web

Those are cultural, but there are also big industries too. British Petroleum, BAE Systems (Ship Building and Aerospace),

http://www.babc.org/

@Mikhaila - agreed with almost every point exactly. And I know GW Trade knew most of that when I worked there...

Quite honestly everyone is worked up over the bits sales. If GW is not selling to you at Trade Discount (IE the bits seller buys either direct or from a store), I doubt they really care too much. Sure they'll say that they want everyone to buy a new box for bits, but they KNOW that won't happen. People used to trade parts. GW did not care and has even promoted that in their own stores. May not be thrilled with people making money off of it, but as long as trade terms are not being used it is SMALL potatoes to GW.

The stores that are selling out at a discount and then shipping you everything but the box (to save on shipping) bother them a lot more. Especially the ones just on ebay. The internet discounters (especially in GW's mind) hurt the Independent stores. GW trade is far more effective at making them money than GW US retail. They need good and healthy stores for that to happen, and the discounters make their job harder. Which leads to less money.

I'm willing to bet you might find a few of the "boxless" shippers or discounters closed by these policies (or having the policies enforced against them). But I doubt they'll close down too many "bits" sellers anytime soon. Unless they can connect one with an internet discounter...and expect that account to get pulled.

The might go after one if their sales price for all of the bits was less than retail......but when would that happen? They also wont go after a B&M store that sells bits/does a bits bazaar/or has a special...buy the new box and you trade the army you don't want with another gamer. Because it is a B&M store working with its LOCAL community. As Mikhaila said- he has never been given a problem over the $500. amount. I know my local store has gone over that amount before (not every month, but at least 3 times in the last year when I bought fantasy or 40k armies for myself - and that was going over on JUST MY ORDER). His sales rep did ask if he was stocking them or ordering them. But I still got my figs

The current pricing model reflects part of their attempts to correct some things. I think it mostly failed. But they are going after discounters and the "boxless shippers" a lot more than the 2nd hand bits dealers. The pricing failed (because I think it was a flawed plan), so now they have moved on to this. But except for expanding US existing terms to North America, this is actually a very small change overall - a lot of this has been in place for a long time.

Empchild still plans on selling bits. I'm sure he will. So no big change on that front for gamers.

 Tethyr13 wrote:
The internet discounters (especially in GW's mind) hurt the Independent stores.

Except, again, most of the bigger internet discounters are also B&M stores. So this idea that stores can't compete with 'internet only' stores is patently false. Stores just choose not to, and then complain that they are losing sales.

If I open a gaming store and decide to only open on tuesdays, is it reasonable for me to complain that I am losing sales to those stores that are open all week? Should GW move to forbid stores from being open on any other day to keep things 'fair' for me?

This is no different. If you refuse to accept that this is 2013 and the internet is a thing, that's your choice. Other people who have chosen to move with the times should not be penalised for your decision to not compete on today's changing retail playing field.

 insaniak wrote:

 Tethyr13 wrote:
The internet discounters (especially in GW's mind) hurt the Independent stores.

Except, again, most of the bigger internet discounters are also B&M stores. So this idea that stores can't compete with 'internet only' stores is patently false. Stores just choose not to, and then complain that they are losing sales.

If I open a gaming store and decide to only open on tuesdays, is it reasonable for me to complain that I am losing sales to those stores that are open all week? Should GW move to forbid stores from being open on any other day to keep things 'fair' for me?

This is no different. If you refuse to accept that this is 2013 and the internet is a thing, that's your choice. Other people who have chosen to move with the times should not be penalised for your decision to not compete on today's changing retail playing field.

This is an attitude that ignores the reality of owning a retail store in 2013. The 40 to 50% margin that game manufacturers build into their MSRPs is what retailers need in order to maintain inventory levels and pay their overhead. Sure, we'd sell a few more of everything if we marked it all down, but we'd need to sell a LOT more to make up the lost income. We can only skirt that 40 to 50% margin on guaranteed sales, or else we're spending our limited dollars poorly. Internet retailers can mark their prices down because their potential customer base is exponentially bigger than a local store's (meaning they CAN sell a lot more by lowering their prices, as opposed to stores) and often they aren't paying for expensive commercial real estate so their overhead's a lot lower than a store's. If we can sell 10 of a product at full price or 12 of a product at 20% off, we'd be stupid to sell at a 20% discount. We'd have to sell 18 to make the same amount of money as just selling 10 at full price. When your products are niche and your customer base occupies a limited geographical area, there's just not much chance of selling those extra 8 units, even at the discounted price.

redcapscorner wrote:
This is an attitude that ignores the reality of owning a retail store in 2013.

No, this is an attitude based on, as I said, the fact that the larger internet discounters generally also have physical stores.

redcapscorner wrote:
When your products are niche and your customer base occupies a limited geographical area, there's just not much chance of selling those extra 8 units, even at the discounted price.

Indeed. If only there were some way you could reach a wider customer base...

You're right, but you're talking about a game of diminishing returns. Selling on the internet does not offer infinite opportunity. The more stores sell on the internet, the less impact selling on the internet will have on a store's ability to lower their prices or sell more product.

The end result of your plan is no more physical stores. This is definitely bad for gaming, as stores do most of the legwork of connecting gamers with one another and providing play space.

This is exactly what has happened in most other geeky niche markets, like record stores and comic stores. The physical stores that are surviving are the ones that are offering more for the money in ways other than just flat discounts. Game stores have held out longer because their business model so often includes extra value in the form of play space.

In short, discounting at a store level requires the extra customers provided by online sales, but the more stores pursue that option the closer game stores come to extinction. I don't agree with much GW does, but as a retailer (even as a retailer who IS beginning to branch into online sales), I'm pleasantly surprised that GW is taking active steps to preserve the existence of the brick & mortar store. The internet is a cold and soulless place.

Insaniak - you are correct because they have to have a store to get the product due to gw's terms (in US for sure). But they are affecting more than their LOCAL area. The only way to compete is to repeat what they are doing.....but the internet mainly stores basically try to survive on everyone else's veteran gamers. Losing those sales hurts the other stores that focus mainly on the gaming. To compete you have to become one of them. But how much of their sales happen at their stores, and how much online? Would they do more than half the business at the B&M and the rest online? I doubt that. So being "Also" a B&M store doesn't mean you are good at bringing the hobby to people. I might like Neal at the Warstore (and I do), but I find it very hard to play at his store from Michigan....

Opening hours and discount are different things, but it is not about being fair at all.....I'm just trying to let you know the thinking that existed at one time in GW Trade Sales. Different sales members felt this more strongly. One of the head guys at that time works for Battlefront who seem to have a no discount over 10% rule. Wonder if his experience at GW US is why that is in place? (Gee, I know this one!)

GW would love to make all continuous discounting go away. It won't happen, but those doorways are one reason. Their perception of their products value is the other.

And I have no problem accepting anything. I make a nice living in computers and the internet. But there is a lot more than "Other people who have chosen to move with the times should not be penalised for your decision to not compete on today's changing retail playing field." at stake in GW's mind. I even disagree with a lot of things the "New" GW do. Please don't confuse me as a white knight on everything GW does.

But as far as policies that would exist if they could (or at least when I worked there) - discounters would be gone. They are trying to limit them in UK. They are placing limits on them here. And overall I think they are just trying to make it harder for those business that chose that method to do business.

Regardless of cost (an noone should think GW wouldn't think that part of it), GW would be much happier dealing with stores like Mikhaila's then all of the internet discounters. Their PERCEPTION would be that the hobby and their relations with the retailers would be better at that point.

I think they tried to modify some of this with price, and it failed. In fact it drove more business to these sites, made more of them, and made discounting even more prevalent. Think about all of the discounting that Ford and GM and Chrysler were doing on their cars before they collapsed and were bailed out. Sure some people got some nice cheap cars. But did it help GM? Chrysler? Even some of the more secure foreign manufacturers started giving away too much. More than just profits were affected. (Look at all of the recalls)

You can think I'm refusing or not. It doesn't matter. There is a bigger "Meta"game going on here, and I was trying to give insight into GW's view as it was when I worked there. Lots of things that look good at one time can lead to radical shifts or disappearance of a market. Almost all of those started with a "Better" way to do things. If this is a brave new bold future....fine. If it hurts the hobby long term, then is it good?

Also @redcapscorner - diminishing returns is right. For a LOCAL store to discount heavily is basically having an extended going out of business sale. If it has gone on a long time....that store is gone unless the owners family is using it as a tax write off (and I do know 1 store that does this!). Sure on the internet I can sell more by discounting. But GW has to focus on the stores that aren't selling all of those items that sell online. Because those are the doorways that they need.

redcapscorner wrote:
The end result of your plan is no more physical stores. This is definitely bad for gaming, as stores do most of the legwork of connecting gamers with one another and providing play space.

In the US currently, sure, because up to now that's the culture that has grown there. That's not the only way for it to work, though.

In Oz, where stores are much more spread out, that networking is done by the gamers themselves, through gaming clubs and tournaments. The vast majority of stores that have sold GW stuff in Oz have never had gaming space at all... in many cases they were craft or toy stores who had nobody on staff who knew anything about gaming at all. The number of independant stockists has (based on a quick perusal of White Dwarf in a newsagents a few months back) at least halved over the last 10 years, and yet the gaming scene is stronger now than it has ever been. Physical stores are not an essential part of this process.

This is exactly what has happened in most other geeky niche markets, like record stores and comic stores. The physical stores that are surviving are the ones that are offering more for the money in ways other than just flat discounts. Game stores have held out longer because their business model so often includes extra value in the form of play space.

And there is no reason that has to change. It just means that stores have to be smarter about how they run, and where they make their money.

GW's 'bury your head in the sand and pretend the internet doesn't exist... except for our own webstore, of course' approach is short sighted and just delays the inevitable. It's not helpful to independants... it just removes their ability to compete in the online market, and pulls those sales that independant webstores could have made back to GW themselves.

The internet is not going away. The smart business is the one who figures out how to use it to their advantage, not the one who tries to pretend that it's still the '90s.

 Ravenous D wrote:
How are they going to touch the exporter? What they do is perfectly legal, they can order from any store in the US and ship to anywhere in the world. GW cant legally do anything against them unless plastic models sudden became narcotics or firearms...

you are being wilfully and intentionally ignorant by this point.....

GW CAN STOP SELLING TO THE SELLER AND REFUSE TO SELL TO ANYONE WHO SELLS TO THAT INTERNATIONAL SELLER. did all caps help you understand that? GW can cancel their agreement with a retailer at any time. They don't have to go after anyone, they can simply stop selling to them, or selling to their supplier, or suppliers supplier.... or whoever is the first point of sale that GW supplies to and loses control of their product. The TTWG market is still not yet large enough for an established store to go without selling GW's toys.

so, legally speaking, GW can stop selling to offending retailers, and any retailers who fail to control their own sale of GW product. It's the retailers who can't do a damn thing legally if GW pulls the plug.

I have no doubts at all that countries on other continents do things differently. I'm a UK citizen who lives in the US, so I've seen first-hand the big differences between gaming scenes even between those two countries. But, this is a thread about GW's new North American trade policy. Has GW announced any changes to their Australian trade policy that prevent Australians from selling on the internet? I have no reason to believe you're wrong about Australia being less reliant on game stores for community-building (and it certainly makes sense given how spread out Australia is), but the US is very reliant on game stores and, like I said, game stores will cease to exist if they continue to become more and more reliant on the internet for business. This isn't to say they should ignore the internet. You're right; that would be stupid. But in the US (and presumably Canada, though I don't know for sure) where this policy is going into effect, restrictions on online sales are very, very healthy for gaming.

In the US stores are not essential either. They are nice for some people, but people who play in stores in the US...or 'clubs' for that matter are the minority.

Most people dont get started gaming by walking in off the streetat random and buy a box full of miniatures. Friends, family, friends of friends...those are who introduce people to gaming. In the past 30+ years of gaming I gamed in a store for one period that lasted about 3 months...that was when I was living in the dorms and our regular gaming location was undergoing a remodel (into a dedicated game room no less).

Remember, there are well over 4 million gamers in the US...you wont see the majority of them gaming in stores.

I respectfully believe you're wrong about that, at least in the US. I understand that many people don't game in stores. I don't deny that at all, but I believe you're dead wrong that it's the majority in this country (for miniatures games, anyway). The math is clearer when you break people down into "casual gamer" vs. "hardcore gamer" categories. I believe a majority of casual gamers likely don't game in-store at all (though that majority is much smaller when it comes to miniatures than with most other gaming), but hardcore gamers absolutely depend on stores in the US.

 insaniak wrote:
In the US currently, sure, because up to now that's the culture that has grown there. That's not the only way for it to work, though. .

Just a small point: The discussion is about the rules GW is putting down for US/NA stores to follow. Not the rest of the world. So the gaming culture and nature of US stores is very relevant.

While there are different ways to do it, that doesn't mean US gaming can or will evolve that way.

And yes, several large internet retailers have stores. And those stores are pretty much only there to get them trade account status.

The business model for an interernet retailer is far different from the average store. Cheap warehouse vs. locationlocationlocation.

Its not possible for many stores to change their business model. Telling people 'change or die' really comes across to me as just "Go away and Die, I want to see gaming evolve the way I want it to be"

My store may evolve, or it might stay the same. But I really don't see any reason to try and evolve my business to fit someone elses idea. What works in your country may not work in the US, or even just in my location.

 mikhaila wrote:
Just a small point: The discussion is about the rules GW is putting down for US/NA stores to follow. Not the rest of the world. So the gaming culture and nature of US stores is very relevant.

Absolutely. But my point was simply that just because it works that way in the US currently, that doesn't mean that it has to work that way.

Telling people 'change or die' really comes across to me as just "Go away and Die, I want to see gaming evolve the way I want it to be"

Not at all how it was meant. But the simple fact is that the nature of retail is changing. This isn't something new... Retail has always changed to suit the times, and the changing demands of customers. That's just the nature of the beast.

I certainly don't want to see businesses fail. But yes, I am going to expect businesses to try to fulfill my needs, and those that do will be the ones who get my custom. Again, that's the nature of the beast.

redcapscorner wrote:
I respectfully believe you're wrong about that, at least in the US. I understand that many people don't game in stores. I don't deny that at all, but I believe you're dead wrong that it's the majority in this country (for miniatures games, anyway). The math is clearer when you break people down into "casual gamer" vs. "hardcore gamer" categories. I believe a majority of casual gamers likely don't game in-store at all (though that majority is much smaller when it comes to miniatures than with most other gaming), but hardcore gamers absolutely depend on stores in the US.

The 12-15 people I game with (all tabletop wargames from 40k to historicals) don't play in stores, never have. I've played maybe three or four times in a store (GW or FLGS) in 15+ years of gaming. There are way more people playing in basements or homes in the US than stores. And I'm more than a casual gamer - I attended GWs GTs every year for 10 or so years, have multiple armies in several different eras, have forces for all the GW specialist games, etc.

And if this does actually result in a decrease or removal of online discounts, it doesn't mean I'm buying from an LGS, I'm not buying period. I'll fully switch over to historicals even though I love the GW background. At that point, its more value for my money to spend it on non-GW product. The only thing that makes GW prices remotely palatable is online discounts.

And as a basement/home gamer, I have no 'pay where you play' to fuss about.

redcapscorner wrote:
I respectfully believe you're wrong about that, at least in the US. I understand that many people don't game in stores. I don't deny that at all, but I believe you're dead wrong that it's the majority in this country (for miniatures games, anyway). The math is clearer when you break people down into "casual gamer" vs. "hardcore gamer" categories. I believe a majority of casual gamers likely don't game in-store at all (though that majority is much smaller when it comes to miniatures than with most other gaming), but hardcore gamers absolutely depend on stores in the US.

Hardcore anything is a fraction of a fraction of the population...while they are vocal, they do not generally represent a large portion of the population...and being 'hardcore' would be more able to find their own venues and gaming partners then a casual gamer.

There is no reason to believe the percentage is wrong, and given that large of a number for the population and how small the populations at game nights in stores, tournaments and other 'hardcore' events...the evidence would seem to indicate that hardcore in store gamers are the minority.

The math is very clear, and I would bet that the majority of any LGS customers do not actually game there.

redcapscorner wrote:
I have no doubts at all that countries on other continents do things differently. I'm a UK citizen who lives in the US, so I've seen first-hand the big differences between gaming scenes even between those two countries. But, this is a thread about GW's new North American trade policy. Has GW announced any changes to their Australian trade policy that prevent Australians from selling on the internet? I have no reason to believe you're wrong about Australia being less reliant on game stores for community-building (and it certainly makes sense given how spread out Australia is), but the US is very reliant on game stores and, like I said, game stores will cease to exist if they continue to become more and more reliant on the internet for business. This isn't to say they should ignore the internet. You're right; that would be stupid. But in the US (and presumably Canada, though I don't know for sure) where this policy is going into effect, restrictions on online sales are very, very healthy for gaming.

though id quickly comment on this. who in their right mind anywhere in the world wants to pay Aussie prices for GW products? sell em on the net? no sir i will buy the occasional item from TCC but i wont be buying a few thousand points here....

redcapscorner wrote:
I respectfully believe you're wrong about that, at least in the US. I understand that many people don't game in stores. I don't deny that at all, but I believe you're dead wrong that it's the majority in this country (for miniatures games, anyway). The math is clearer when you break people down into "casual gamer" vs. "hardcore gamer" categories. I believe a majority of casual gamers likely don't game in-store at all (though that majority is much smaller when it comes to miniatures than with most other gaming), but hardcore gamers absolutely depend on stores in the US.

i know there's a response or two to this already, but I have a quick and easy way of tearing this argument to shreds.

Beer.

There's gaming, and then there's gaming with beer. Gaming with beer is preferential to, and superior to, just gaming. Gaming with beer cannot be in a store, however awesome that store is. It's like going to a baseball game, and everything they served was non-alcoholic. The sport would be dead in 5 minutes.

 poda_t wrote:

redcapscorner wrote:
I respectfully believe you're wrong about that, at least in the US. I understand that many people don't game in stores. I don't deny that at all, but I believe you're dead wrong that it's the majority in this country (for miniatures games, anyway). The math is clearer when you break people down into "casual gamer" vs. "hardcore gamer" categories. I believe a majority of casual gamers likely don't game in-store at all (though that majority is much smaller when it comes to miniatures than with most other gaming), but hardcore gamers absolutely depend on stores in the US.

i know there's a response or two to this already, but I have a quick and easy way of tearing this argument to shreds.

Beer.

There's gaming, and then there's gaming with beer. Gaming with beer is preferential to, and superior to, just gaming. Gaming with beer cannot be in a store, however awesome that store is. It's like going to a baseball game, and everything they served was non-alcoholic. The sport would be dead in 5 minutes.

Depends on the store.

I keep my store open until 2am most friday nights. Most guys show up betweeen 6 and 7, and we have to behave until 9. After that, its brewtime. Between tabletop wargames and FNM we usually have 50 people. We drink lots of beer. (Well, i do. Really helps when my army is getting rolled up in turn 3. ). Sometimes i make chili and pulled pork to go with the beer and dice rolling.

 mikhaila wrote:
I keep my store open until 2am most friday nights. Most guys show up betweeen 6 and 7, and we have to behave until 9. After that, its brewtime. Between tabletop wargames and FNM we usually have 50 people. We drink lots of beer. (Well, i do. Really helps when my army is getting rolled up in turn 3. ). Sometimes i make chili and pulled pork to go with the beer and dice rolling.

So... ignore my previous comments. Might be time to consider moving to the US.

 insaniak wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
Just a small point: The discussion is about the rules GW is putting down for US/NA stores to follow. Not the rest of the world. So the gaming culture and nature of US stores is very relevant.

Absolutely. But my point was simply that just because it works that way in the US currently, that doesn't mean that it has to work that way.

Telling people 'change or die' really comes across to me as just "Go away and Die, I want to see gaming evolve the way I want it to be"

Not at all how it was meant. But the simple fact is that the nature of retail is changing. This isn't something new... Retail has always changed to suit the times, and the changing demands of customers. That's just the nature of the beast.

I certainly don't want to see businesses fail. But yes, I am going to expect businesses to try to fulfill my needs, and those that do will be the ones who get my custom. Again, that's the nature of the beast.

The problem is hearing people say the same often used phrases, over and over until you they get really annoying. People may not mean anything when they use them, but they do have meaning to the people directly affected by the situations. I've probably heard the whole "retail has to change/evolve or die" arguement 100 times here on daka. But most people don't know a thing about the realities of running your own business. They just spout the words. Thats why it gets annoying after awhile.
Its easy to throw the words out, and you all just want to score some points in an ongoing debate.

To some of us, the situation is a bit more real. We aren't arguing theoreticals.

Many of you get upset when your codex changes. It doesn't make you feel better if some tells you "The game changed, deal with it, paint a new army or lose all your games".

Imagine from the perspective of a a game store owner, where the store is literally your life. Literally. Its 70 hours a week and how you support a family. Any threat to it is taken seriously.

The evolve or die crap isn't really a threat, just annoying as hell.

All businesses change. One of the changes in the US was instore gaming. We evolved to fulfill customer needs, and created some new needs. I had no tables when I opened. Had 4 tables 12 years ago. Saw what you could do with a bigger area, went to 12 tables now, and thinging of getting bigger. We run 50 person events, and i want to do 100. We carry 3x the stock we used to, to fulfill 3x the needs of our customers.

None of this happens with a 20-30% discount attatched to it. Discounting on the internet is a totally different model. It may fulfill some needs of some customers, but not the needs of others.

There are many ways that gaming communities evolve. Some have a focus around clubs, some around stores. Different countries have different dynamics.

I didn't really mean to get up on a soap box. But at times my buttons get pushed and you guys get a sermon. Not really aimed at anything in particular.

 mikhaila wrote:
Depends on the store.

I keep my store open until 2am most friday nights. Most guys show up betweeen 6 and 7, and we have to behave until 9. After that, its brewtime. Between tabletop wargames and FNM we usually have 50 people. We drink lots of beer. (Well, i do. Really helps when my army is getting rolled up in turn 3. ). Sometimes i make chili and pulled pork to go with the beer and dice rolling.

And where are you at again?
I need to know ... for reasons.
I'm totally not going to try and convince my wife to move there since we both work from home and our geographic location just doesn't matter...

Unless you get snow. Then I'm not sure it's worth it. :-)

 mikhaila wrote:
I didn't really mean to get up on a soap box. But at times my buttons get pushed and you guys get a sermon. Not really aimed at anything in particular.

It's all good. Your input as as a store owner to discussions like this one has been great... It's always good to see the other side of the coin. I certainly didn't mean to offend.

 poda_t wrote:
There's gaming, and then there's gaming with beer. Gaming with beer is preferential to, and superior to, just gaming. Gaming with beer cannot be in a store, however awesome that store is. It's like going to a baseball game, and everything they served was non-alcoholic. The sport would be dead in 5 minutes.

Or to frame that another way, "Baseball! The sport that nobody would want to watch sober!"

I just don't understand the allure of alcohol.

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 Flashman wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
3) Brits have sucked at taking over the US market. Failed in 1776 and 1812. Mildly successful with the Beatles.

Harry Potter, Simon Cowell, the World Wide Web

Those are cultural, but there are also big industries too. British Petroleum, BAE Systems (Ship Building and Aerospace),

http://www.babc.org/

LOL @ BAE Systems, that is a corporation that really is as evil as the worst hater thinks GW is.

All my bits I have are swaps or trades

This put MWG to the point of closing. Im pissed.

 mikhaila wrote:

 poda_t wrote:

redcapscorner wrote:
I respectfully believe you're wrong about that, at least in the US. I understand that many people don't game in stores. I don't deny that at all, but I believe you're dead wrong that it's the majority in this country (for miniatures games, anyway). The math is clearer when you break people down into "casual gamer" vs. "hardcore gamer" categories. I believe a majority of casual gamers likely don't game in-store at all (though that majority is much smaller when it comes to miniatures than with most other gaming), but hardcore gamers absolutely depend on stores in the US.

i know there's a response or two to this already, but I have a quick and easy way of tearing this argument to shreds.

Beer.

There's gaming, and then there's gaming with beer. Gaming with beer is preferential to, and superior to, just gaming. Gaming with beer cannot be in a store, however awesome that store is. It's like going to a baseball game, and everything they served was non-alcoholic. The sport would be dead in 5 minutes.

Depends on the store.

I keep my store open until 2am most friday nights. Most guys show up betweeen 6 and 7, and we have to behave until 9. After that, its brewtime. Between tabletop wargames and FNM we usually have 50 people. We drink lots of beer. (Well, i do. Really helps when my army is getting rolled up in turn 3. ). Sometimes i make chili and pulled pork to go with the beer and dice rolling.

holy crap you wouldnt happen to be in california would you?

It's obviously a moot argument as there's no way to know for sure what percentage of gamers in the US value and count on stores, but my perspective as the owner of a store is no less valid than "me and my fifteen friends are hardcore gamers who never go to stores" guy's or "beer makes gaming better" guy's. We're all coloured by our vantage points. Sure, if you and your friends don't go to stores, it's going to seem like no one does, and if beer's as important to you as gaming, it's going to be hard to believe the same is not true of everybody. I own a store, so I guess all I can say for sure is that most of our customers DO game in-store. We get plenty who don't, but most do, and that's even more true of miniatures gaming than of any other sort. Obviously a store isn't an unbiased place to gather statistics about whether or not people value stores, so I'll leave the issue be. I hope you can see that just because you and your fifteen friends don't utilize the services of a good store doesn't mean that a huge number of Americans don't value and count on stores.

And Mikhalia's store is in Pennsylvania, just a few miles from mine. His store's every bit as awesome as it sounds. Philadelphia-area game stores set the bar pretty high.

rigeld2 wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
Depends on the store.

I keep my store open until 2am most friday nights. Most guys show up betweeen 6 and 7, and we have to behave until 9. After that, its brewtime. Between tabletop wargames and FNM we usually have 50 people. We drink lots of beer. (Well, i do. Really helps when my army is getting rolled up in turn 3. ). Sometimes i make chili and pulled pork to go with the beer and dice rolling.

And where are you at again?
I need to know ... for reasons.
I'm totally not going to try and convince my wife to move there since we both work from home and our geographic location just doesn't matter...

Unless you get snow. Then I'm not sure it's worth it. :-)

Media PA, in the western Philadelphia suburbs.

Our snowfall is pathetic. My girls and I rush out to build snowmen, knowing the chance of it lasting a couple of days is minimal. I grew up in the Sierra Nevada, that had real snow.

The most I can get from this thread is that I should step up my orders for bitz that I have been pondering over from The Warstore before that becomes impossible. For instance there are several nice sprues of figures from the starter sets that along with the accompanying solo figure in each starter would make very nice ready-made warbands for small skirmish games like In the Emperor's Name (Ork sprue + warboss from AoBR along with the Chaos marines + Chaos lord from DV) and will cost about 20 bucks. I can get that from various places on Ebay, but I would rather have the ease of buying them from a store I am already purchasing other material.

Add in a smattering of Eldar, Ork and Space Marine bitz to fill out my existing armies and GW can kiss my white behind if they don't want my business anymore. I'm not buying a whole box of Guardians when I just need the weapons platform and a selection of heavy weapons for it, for instance. Or an entire tank kit if I want to equip my old Falcons with something other than a Scatter Laser, when that wasn't an option when they first came out.

It's truly saddening for a guy like me, for which the hobby has been about the modelling and converting foremost.

I might have to swing by some time, I'm living about an hour and 25 mins north from Media, PA. I grew up and lived in Australia, so this past winter I've seen more snow than I had previously seen in my entire life

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I might have to swing by some time, I'm living about an hour and 25 mins north from Media, PA. I grew up and lived in Australia, so this past winter I've seen more snow than I had previously seen in my entire life

I've got friends that come down from Hazelton and Allentowne most weekends to do a day or two of gaming. They definitely get a bit more snow than we do down here. A bit higher elevation i think as you go north.

 mikhaila wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I might have to swing by some time, I'm living about an hour and 25 mins north from Media, PA. I grew up and lived in Australia, so this past winter I've seen more snow than I had previously seen in my entire life

I've got friends that come down from Hazelton and Allentowne most weekends to do a day or two of gaming. They definitely get a bit more snow than we do down here. A bit higher elevation i think as you go north.

depends how far north you go. For the first time in a decade i think, we managed to actually have a white christmas. (and that, only because we celebrate ours on the eve of the 24th....)

Ahahahahahah...

Even GW wouldn't be stupid enough to try this. And they've done some pretty stupid things before. I find it hard to believe that even the idiots at the head of the company would be that moronic.

And even if they would, I find it hard to believe that the poor rank-and-file of GW would bother trying to put it in to place. I don't think that the poor bloke behind the counter at your FLGW is going to have a reaction to this very far off of "feth it".

 Squigsquasher wrote:
Ahahahahahah...

Even GW wouldn't be stupid enough to try this. And they've done some pretty stupid things before. I find it hard to believe that even the idiots at the head of the company would be that moronic.

And even if they would, I find it hard to believe that the poor rank-and-file of GW would bother trying to put it in to place. I don't think that the poor bloke behind the counter at your FLGW is going to have a reaction to this very far off of "feth it".

So, you identify idiotic behavior on the part of GW, and then make a remark saying that they aren't so stupid as to make another stupid decision........ since when has precedent been a case against forecasting repeated instances behaviour? Let me tell you, my dog doesn't run to the closet cowering in fear of her life when i pull the biscuits out, and she doesn't start drooling when i start brandishing objects and raising my voice...

You didn't fall for this April fool's joke, right?

 poda_t wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
Ahahahahahah...

Even GW wouldn't be stupid enough to try this. And they've done some pretty stupid things before. I find it hard to believe that even the idiots at the head of the company would be that moronic.

And even if they would, I find it hard to believe that the poor rank-and-file of GW would bother trying to put it in to place. I don't think that the poor bloke behind the counter at your FLGW is going to have a reaction to this very far off of "feth it".

So, you identify idiotic behavior on the part of GW, and then make a remark saying that they aren't so stupid as to make another stupid decision........ since when has precedent been a case against forecasting repeated instances behaviour? Let me tell you, my dog doesn't run to the closet cowering in fear of her life when i pull the biscuits out, and she doesn't start drooling when i start brandishing objects and raising my voice...

Erm...

My puny mind is struggling to understand what you're talking about...

 Squigsquasher wrote:

 poda_t wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
Ahahahahahah...

Even GW wouldn't be stupid enough to try this. And they've done some pretty stupid things before. I find it hard to believe that even the idiots at the head of the company would be that moronic.

And even if they would, I find it hard to believe that the poor rank-and-file of GW would bother trying to put it in to place. I don't think that the poor bloke behind the counter at your FLGW is going to have a reaction to this very far off of "feth it".

So, you identify idiotic behavior on the part of GW, and then make a remark saying that they aren't so stupid as to make another stupid decision........ since when has precedent been a case against forecasting repeated instances behaviour? Let me tell you, my dog doesn't run to the closet cowering in fear of her life when i pull the biscuits out, and she doesn't start drooling when i start brandishing objects and raising my voice...

Erm...

My puny mind is struggling to understand what you're talking about...

you were saying GW isn't stupid enough to try it.... that they have done other stupid things, but that they can't be stupid enough to try this. I argued that that's a silly position to take, since their previous stupidity is a good indicator that they are capable of perpetrating many and more stupid acts, including this trade policy.

 poda_t wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:

 poda_t wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
Ahahahahahah...

Even GW wouldn't be stupid enough to try this. And they've done some pretty stupid things before. I find it hard to believe that even the idiots at the head of the company would be that moronic.

And even if they would, I find it hard to believe that the poor rank-and-file of GW would bother trying to put it in to place. I don't think that the poor bloke behind the counter at your FLGW is going to have a reaction to this very far off of "feth it".

So, you identify idiotic behavior on the part of GW, and then make a remark saying that they aren't so stupid as to make another stupid decision........ since when has precedent been a case against forecasting repeated instances behaviour? Let me tell you, my dog doesn't run to the closet cowering in fear of her life when i pull the biscuits out, and she doesn't start drooling when i start brandishing objects and raising my voice...

Erm...

My puny mind is struggling to understand what you're talking about...

you were saying GW isn't stupid enough to try it.... that they have done other stupid things, but that they can't be stupid enough to try this. I argued that that's a silly position to take, since their previous stupidity is a good indicator that they are capable of perpetrating many and more stupid acts, including this trade policy.

Ah, that makes more sense. Please forgive my thickness.

The question is, who is actually behind this idiocy? The shareholders? Kirby (The chairman, not the cute pink omnivorous marshmallow blob thingy)? Some random marketing douchebag?

Mostly kirby, he owns 51% of the shares, is both CEO and chairman of the board (which shouldnt happen as they are meant to control each other) and managed to give himself a 20% pay increase last year. He gets a pay out of 1.4 million every time they pay dividends.

He is going to bail out in a golden parachute once his shares hit a certain point, as he is very close to retiring. Whether or not the company keeps going in the same direciton post kirby is anyones guess.

Someone shoot him, get Rick Priestly in charge. If we can get rid of Kirby before he drives our beloved Games Workshop utterly into the ground, then there may be hope.

I fear the days of "convenient paint applicator sachets" may soon be upon us.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
Someone shoot him, get Rick Priestly in charge. If we can get rid of Kirby before he drives our beloved Games Workshop utterly into the ground, then there may be hope.

I fear the days of "convenient paint applicator sachets" may soon be upon us.

GoA, that is all. Not totally Ricks fault but maybe he's not the best choice to head a design department at the moment.

And Rick hasnt worked for the company for a few years now (see sig)

I know that, which is a damn shame.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Mostly kirby, he owns 51% of the shares, is both CEO and chairman of the board (which shouldnt happen as they are meant to control each other) and managed to give himself a 20% pay increase last year. He gets a pay out of 1.4 million every time they pay dividends.

He is going to bail out in a golden parachute once his shares hit a certain point, as he is very close to retiring. Whether or not the company keeps going in the same direciton post kirby is anyones guess.

Are you sure, I thought he only owned about 8% of the shares but was part of a group that controlled 51%????

 Ravenous D wrote:
Mostly kirby, he owns 51% of the shares, is both CEO and chairman of the board (which shouldnt happen as they are meant to control each other) and managed to give himself a 20% pay increase last year. He gets a pay out of 1.4 million every time they pay dividends.

He is going to bail out in a golden parachute once his shares hit a certain point, as he is very close to retiring. Whether or not the company keeps going in the same direciton post kirby is anyones guess.

Not sure if serious....

He owns slightly less of the company and makes slightly less in dividend payments.
http://investor.games-workshop.com/shareholder-statistics/

As for blind faith in Rick Priestly, he was in charge of the original the Warhammer MMO. The one by Climax , not Mythic. At least Rick claims to have been in charge of the project when he was interviewed on D6 Generation.

Does anyone else see the hilarity in their business model? "We are a manufacturer, not a retailer."

 mikhaila wrote:


Its not possible for many stores to change their business model. Telling people 'change or die' really comes across to me as just "Go away and Die, I want to see gaming evolve the way I want it to be"

My store may evolve, or it might stay the same. But I really don't see any reason to try and evolve my business to fit someone elses idea. What works in your country may not work in the US, or even just in my location.

No different however, on how GW is trying to mold its customer base to its practices. From internet cart to cancellation of bits from GW to cancellation of bits services to cancellation of ordering in otehr countries.

Just as you dont want to hear it, some of us as customers dont want to hear it on the other end. GW pretty much as said through its actions "do it our way or go away and die"

silent25 wrote:

As for blind faith in Rick Priestly, he was in charge of the original the Warhammer MMO. The one by Climax , not Mythic. At least Rick claims to have been in charge of the project when he was interviewed on D6 Generation.

He was.

And remember that Climax went under after GW had sunk a lot of money into the development of Warhammer Online.

 Kanluwen wrote:

silent25 wrote:

As for blind faith in Rick Priestly, he was in charge of the original the Warhammer MMO. The one by Climax , not Mythic. At least Rick claims to have been in charge of the project when he was interviewed on D6 Generation.

He was.

And remember that Climax went under after GW had sunk a lot of money into the development of Warhammer Online.

And that was my point. Should have made that clear the Climax one never saw the light of day.

Thanks

 Kanluwen wrote:

silent25 wrote:

As for blind faith in Rick Priestly, he was in charge of the original the Warhammer MMO. The one by Climax , not Mythic. At least Rick claims to have been in charge of the project when he was interviewed on D6 Generation.

He was.

And remember that Climax went under after GW had sunk a lot of money into the development of Warhammer Online.

Climax Racing studio (one of 2 studios that formed Climax at the time) was bought by Disney in 2004 and became Black Rock Studios. Climax's remaining studio continued to fund the project for a short while after GW pulled out. The problem that they had was not finding a publisher to get the game online during that time period. The game company is still in existence but really a shadow of its former self.

Matney X wrote:
Does anyone else see the hilarity in their business model? "We are a manufacturer, not a retailer."

GW justifications for their actions remind me of North Korean propaganda by this point.

 Harriticus wrote:

Matney X wrote:
Does anyone else see the hilarity in their business model? "We are a manufacturer, not a retailer."

GW justifications for their actions remind me of North Korean propaganda by this point.

That.. is surprisingly accurate

Over in the "GW are removing all open gaming from stores" thread the original post on facebook was:

The most important of these changes is that we will be bringing to a close our open gaming. This is great news as it inevitably means that you local store will be hosting fantastic new activites and events designed to give you a whole host of new hobby challenges and our trained staff will be on hand to support you and make sure that you get the most out of this awesome new programme.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:

Matney X wrote:
Does anyone else see the hilarity in their business model? "We are a manufacturer, not a retailer."

GW justifications for their actions remind me of North Korean propaganda by this point.

That.. is surprisingly accurate

Over in the "GW are removing all open gaming from stores" thread the original post on facebook was:

The most important of these changes is that we will be bringing to a close our open gaming. This is great news as it inevitably means that you local store will be hosting fantastic new activites and events designed to give you a whole host of new hobby challenges and our trained staff will be on hand to support you and make sure that you get the most out of this awesome new programme.

Trust them to bring it as a 'great new opportunity!'.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Golden shark tanks and islands dont buy themselves you know.

 Che-Vito wrote:
Does anyone else find it absurd that Tom Kirby's 6.7% share of GAW, is worth: ~$209,358,070?
How much more does he need to 'retire gracefully' as so many have put it?

UK shares are in pence, not pounds so it's 'only' $20,935,807

(still lots of money though)

< Taken by the void dragon. >

And even then it's not liquid. Depending on what he's used to, $20m isn't enough to retire on.