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Post by: niceguyteddy
New GW terms for trade accounts prohibits sales of items not in their original packaging as well as a few other shenanigans. Thoughts for bits sellers?
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
That's insane. We are unable to convert anymore if this goes through... unless we only use 3rd party bits or *gasp* buy a kit for a whole shoulder pad?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't want to sound panicky. My previous comment was meant with a skeptical tone.
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Post by: Sidstyler
So does this mean your FLGS can't sell used models anymore, as they obviously aren't in their original packaging? Is this more of GW trying (in vain) to kill the secondhand market?
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Post by: Valkyrie
So how are they going to enforce this insane new policy?
53375
Post by: hotsauceman1
And, can we have a link to it please?
5946
Post by: Miguelsan
Sorry but without a source I cannot believe this asinine policy.
M.
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Post by: overkongen
Different countries might have different rules, but surely once you buy something you own it and can resell it however you like.
53375
Post by: hotsauceman1
overkongen wrote:Different countries might have different rules, but surely once you buy something you own it and can resell it however you like.
It depends, In america you cant modify your phone to do what you want it to.
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Post by: AlexHolker
 Sidstyler wrote:So does this mean your FLGS can't sell used models anymore, as they obviously aren't in their original packaging?
I don't believe so. Since the used models were obtained from a source other than the GW trade account, the terms of the trade account presumably do not apply.
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Post by: nkelsch
Bits sellers on eBay don't have trade accounts, they get a kit and break it up. They can still do that. They can't prevent that from happening.
This only applies to retailers who order product from GW. Most bits people I tend to deal with are not retail stores with trade accounts. Getting a kit at 20% off and bitting it out is more than enough way to make a decent profit.
Not sure if this is a real problem or not. It won't stop bits sales.
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Post by: Sir Samuel Buca
I'm sure in Britain there's a law that if you purchase a physical object you can sell it on. I'll try and look it up, but since it's a British company, I can't see them doing it.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
overkongen wrote:Different countries might have different rules, but surely once you buy something you own it and can resell it however you like.
The issue wouldn't be for consumers reselling stuff, rather retailers who have a trade account with GW. For example, The War Store sells a lot of loose bits. GW can put terms in place like they already have banning EU stores from selling to Australia, US stores selling directly online or any stores from offering certain discount levels. If they want to sell GW products, they have to abide by the rules GW puts in place (provided those rules dont violate other trade laws).
I would expect to see the impact and official word on something like this fairly soon as it would impact a lot of stores. It isnt out of character for GW though, so I am inclined to believe it.
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Post by: Kingsley
This seems like a bad move for GW, unless it's linked to the lost and lamented GW Bitz service making a comeback. Restricting the supply of GW bitz will just drive people to the third parties such as Chapterhouse, Kromlech, and Anvil Industries.
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Post by: Kanluwen
 Kingsley wrote:This seems like a bad move for GW, unless it's linked to the lost and lamented GW Bitz service making a comeback. Restricting the supply of GW bitz will just drive people to the third parties such as Chapterhouse, Kromlech, and Anvil Industries.
I somehow doubt that, considering that this move will only affect the "more expensive" bits providers like Battlewagon Bits.
Places where you already pay more than you would from a bits seller on eBay selling the same item.
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
Again, I want a source for this.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
nkelsch wrote:Bits sellers on eBay don't have trade accounts, they get a kit and break it up. They can still do that. They can't prevent that from happening.
As far as I know most bitz sites do that. This is really a non-issue.
3933
Post by: Kingsley
 Kanluwen wrote: Kingsley wrote:This seems like a bad move for GW, unless it's linked to the lost and lamented GW Bitz service making a comeback. Restricting the supply of GW bitz will just drive people to the third parties such as Chapterhouse, Kromlech, and Anvil Industries.
I somehow doubt that, considering that this move will only affect the "more expensive" bits providers like Battlewagon Bits.
Places where you already pay more than you would from a bits seller on eBay selling the same item.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I've bought bitz both from eBay folks and from Battlewagon Bits/The War Store and I've found Battlewagon to be generally superior in reliability, availability, shipping costs, and selection. The fact that you can purchase bitz along with other GW orders is just the icing on the cake there.
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Post by: xraytango
Agreed, I too would like verification on this. Without provenance this seems a bit of a troll.
I will say though it fits with the myopic view of success that GW seems to have these days. It's almost as though someone at Nottingham is making bets on how many players they can alienate and how low they can drive sales figures. Need rules for that new flyer? Psyche we ain't got 'em! Want an e.book version, sorry you have to have an i-device, what you mean you don't have one?
Etc. Etc. Etc. Ad nauseum.
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Post by: Grot 6
+1 on the source as well.
If it is true, feth them and do it anyway. 
20774
Post by: pretre
 H.B.M.C. wrote:nkelsch wrote:Bits sellers on eBay don't have trade accounts, they get a kit and break it up. They can still do that. They can't prevent that from happening.
As far as I know most bitz sites do that. This is really a non-issue.
Mark this day down! I agree with H.B.M.C.
60720
Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I suspect this is to knock out the large scale sellers with trade accounts who unbox whole new kits at so they can sell them online with trolleys or to Australia new kit prices
rather than the 'low' volume sales of ebay bits sellers of game stores who break the occasional box (which they can still do, writing them off as damaged stock)
46
Post by: alarmingrick
Kanluwen wrote: Kingsley wrote:This seems like a bad move for GW, unless it's linked to the lost and lamented GW Bitz service making a comeback. Restricting the supply of GW bitz will just drive people to the third parties such as Chapterhouse, Kromlech, and Anvil Industries.
I somehow doubt that, considering that this move will only affect the "more expensive" bits providers like The War Store.
Places where you already pay more than you would from a bits seller on eBay selling the same item.
Fixed that for you. I've found TWS has a MUCH higher mark up the BB ever thought of!
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Post by: insaniak
This was in the Oz terms of trade back in the '90s. No idea if it still is, but I would be surprised if it's not, and am equally surprised that it wasn't already in the US terms.
When I started selling bits on eBay it wasn't an issue, since I wasn't buying through a GW trade account anyway.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
 alarmingrick wrote: Kanluwen wrote: Kingsley wrote:This seems like a bad move for GW, unless it's linked to the lost and lamented GW Bitz service making a comeback. Restricting the supply of GW bitz will just drive people to the third parties such as Chapterhouse, Kromlech, and Anvil Industries.
I somehow doubt that, considering that this move will only affect the "more expensive" bits providers like The War Store.
Places where you already pay more than you would from a bits seller on eBay selling the same item.
Fixed that for you. I've found TWS has a MUCH higher mark up the BB ever thought of!
True enough.
At the very least, there's a somewhat logical reason as to why. TWS/BB consistently have things in stock with very little times where the "popular bits" are out of stock for lengthy amounts of time.
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Post by: haroon
 pretre wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:nkelsch wrote:Bits sellers on eBay don't have trade accounts, they get a kit and break it up. They can still do that. They can't prevent that from happening.
As far as I know most bitz sites do that. This is really a non-issue.
Mark this day down! I agree with H.B.M.C.
Those bit sellers have trade accounts with gw, they need it to buy at the 45% discount from gw so then can then sell the bits.
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Post by: Empchild
As someone who's business is bitz all i have to say is eh. I don't buy direct from them i have other distributors. I have no plans on stopping and it's also not illegal. GW can make whatever terms they like and if you buy direct from them then you have to follow it but i don't and I'm one of the larger bits sellers in the U.S.A. i did hear about this yesterday though and i laughed.
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Post by: redcapscorner
I'm a retailer with a trade account, but all I can say is that I've known all week that tonight is the night we're supposed to find about the "new changes to GW's trade account policies" which will be "aimed at supporting brick & mortar stores at the expense of online vendors." My rep emailed earlier today to say the details of that announcement would still be emailed to us later tonight, but he still hasn't sent us the details. It's hard for me to imagine this being false given its timing. I'm hoping that it only applies to cracking boxes for bits, though, and that the mere fact that I sell bits isn't going to be held against me if it's reported to GW. A policy that outright forbids selling bits will ONLY negatively affect brick and mortar stores.
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Post by: insaniak
haroon wrote:Those bit sellers have trade accounts with gw, they need it to buy at the 45% discount from gw so then can then sell the bits.
Not necessarily.
The key is that kits with parts in high demand wind up with the sum of the bits sales adding up to more than the normal retail cost of the kit, which works because people would rather pay more per part for just the bits they want, rather than buying a whole kit.
So if your prices are worked out correctly, and you choose what you sell and how much you buy at a time, you can make a profit buying at retail (or preferably retail with a discount, although I just bought a lot of my stuff straight from GW UK back before Maelstrom started up, thanks to the exchange rate making that a good deal).
A trade account would obviously be better... but seeing as I'm an Australian and was only selling online, and was only selling components and conversions, that was never an option.
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Post by: Kalamadea
bigger issue isn't whether it's legal (when has that EVER stopped GW from sending a C&D?) but whether they're big enough to make eBay simply pull those listings just because they say they want the listings pulled. Spoiler alert: they already do that.
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Post by: decker_cky
overkongen wrote:Different countries might have different rules, but surely once you buy something you own it and can resell it however you like.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote:I'm sure in Britain there's a law that if you purchase a physical object you can sell it on. I'll try and look it up, but since it's a British company, I can't see them doing it.
You can sell stuff on whatever terms you want (as long as it doesn't violate constitutional rights on discrimination or something like that). Those terms wouldn't apply to a third party who later purchased them down the line. I suppose the terms could include a clause that any resale had to have the same terms. Would be completely unenforceable though, as GW could only claim against the seller, and wouldn't have a claim against the third party ( GW would have to go after the seller for violating terms if the seller didn't go after the third party).
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Post by: xraytango
It will also negatively affect GWs bottom line.
Do not be mislead, when GW talk about supporting B&M stores they don't mean the FLGS that has built up their trade and sold product for 30 years despite the internet. GW mean THEIR B&M stores. English socialism and its doublespeak at its finest.
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Post by: insaniak
 Kalamadea wrote:bigger issue isn't whether it's legal (when has that EVER stopped GW from sending a C&D?) but whether they're big enough to make eBay simply pull those listings just because they say they want the listings pulled. Spoiler alert: they already do that.
They can get ebay to pull listings where there are copyright infringements involved. They can't just stop all on-selling of their product. There has to be a valid reason for pulling the auction.
And no, trade accounts having a clause forbidding selling of bits isn't that reason, since (a)they would have to prove that the seller on eBay purchased those bits through their trade account and (b)eBay is not responsible for enforcing GW's terms of trade with their trade accounts.
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Post by: Kingsley
You know, there's a lot of negativity around GW, but I think this might be the first time that I've ever heard them referred to as socialist.
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Post by: MrMoustaffa
I think this is aimed at retail outlets. for example, I went to one store that will remain unnamed that was selling the Dark Vengeance box broken up into its individual parts (hellbrute, cultists, etc.) He was buying the boxes straight from GW than selling the models off piecemeal.
I bet without a doubt thats what Gw is trying to clamp down on.
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Post by: niceguyteddy
I understand people questioning the source as I dont often post news or rumors but I assure you my fellow retailers will soon confirm what I have told you here. I wish I had a link for you but this was emailed to me.
I think this will affect all of us with higher bit prices.
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Post by: Empchild
Kalamadea wrote:bigger issue isn't whether it's legal (when has that EVER stopped GW from sending a C&D?) but whether they're big enough to make eBay simply pull those listings just because they say they want the listings pulled. Spoiler alert: they already do that.
Most major bits sellers have moved away from ebay as theirs not enough profit in it. I was.doing close to 6000 auctions a month and after ebay,paypal, shipping you only make about 17%. Then you have to pay employees bills etc. If anyone wants to know how the bits infustry works feel free to pm. It took me just over two years to get the jist of it but if you have patients the business is good. The difference is a box may sell in a few weeks but as bits it could take 8 months.
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Post by: insaniak
 MrMoustaffa wrote:I think this is aimed at retail outlets. for example, I went to one store that will remain unnamed that was selling the Dark Vengeance box broken up into its individual parts (hellbrute, cultists, etc.) He was buying the boxes straight from GW than selling the models off piecemeal.
I bet without a doubt thats what Gw is trying to clamp down on.
Sure... which is ridiculous, since it doesn't affect anyone without a trade account.
So it actually does the exact opposite of protecting B&M stores, since all it actually does is remove their ability to compete with the bits sellers who don't have a trade account. It won't stop the bits trade... it will just remove those sales from B&M stores.
One more example of GW's complete inability to understand the internet.
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Post by: xraytango
Kingsley wrote:You know, there's a lot of negativity around GW, but I think this might be the first time that I've ever heard them referred to as socialist.
WE have the greatest models in the world, WE have all the things you need, WE are your mother and your father.
I was showing how the culture over there has influenced the corporate mentality of GW.
Either that or I read too much Orwell as a kid and see red where there isn't any 
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Post by: WarOne
 insaniak wrote:
One more example of GW's complete inability to understand the internet.
I wouldn't say inability to understand internet is their fatal flaw, but GW's concept tof how they can control the flow of their product. It's apparent in how they have stated they want to aggressively push their NA store model by hundreds of locations, control trade accounts and slowly suffocate them, and lastly restrict the internet businesses from conducting their business revolving around GW products that it looks like the endgame for GW is to sell their product strictly by themselves and themselves alone. Perhaps a few LFGS will be graced by GW products, but by and large it appears GW wants every customer to revolve around them rather than independent retailers.
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Post by: Kalamadea
Nothing in the law forces GW to sell to you as a trade account, quite the opposite as you have to agree to their Terms and Conditions, a legal contract, before they will open an account. Those terms have many limitations already in place, stuff like no standing discounts over 20%, no selling online using GW's pictures, order minimums every week etc. If you don't like their terms, you have to go through a 3rd party distributor like Alliance or ACD which cuts into your profit margins.
Stores that only carry a small amount of GW or stores that are sick of GWs crap are better off with distribution, but a lot of FLGS need the extra margin, it's slim enough already. But if you want that extra discount and the other perks like prize support, free product displays, free mail order shipping, then you have to follow GWs rules or they cut you off.
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Post by: jimbolina25
nkelsch wrote:Bits sellers on eBay don't have trade accounts, they get a kit and break it up. They can still do that. They can't prevent that from happening.
.
I'm proof that your reply is incorrect 
Also, I sell GW boxes, but most of my sales are from the bit collection I have collected over the years. Will GW be comming and checking whether the item I have is one i bought via trade or one I bought via retail?
Oh well, there more profit margin to be made selling FW bits bought retail then GW bits bought trade anyways. looks like FW sales are going up.
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Post by: nkelsch
insaniak wrote:haroon wrote:Those bit sellers have trade accounts with gw, they need it to buy at the 45% discount from gw so then can then sell the bits.
Not necessarily.
The key is that kits with parts in high demand wind up with the sum of the bits sales adding up to more than the normal retail cost of the kit, which works because people would rather pay more per part for just the bits they want, rather than buying a whole kit.
As someone who has been watching the 'bitz market' for a specific model for 6+months now, I can tell you this is true. I have been buying Ork Bikes when they reached a 'low' price for specific bitz or whole models.
Ork Warbike Mob:
Retail GW US$: 41.25
20$ off: 33.00$
So let's see how bitz sellers break up this particular kit. These prices are LOW and many of these bitz go for way more than this. You can find these prices right now on eBay.
Bike Mantel: 1$ x4
Grot: 2$
Biker legs: 2$ x3
Dakkagun: 3$ x3
Handlebars: 1$ x3
Torso: 2$ x4
CCW arms: 1$
Ork head: 1$ x3
PK: 3.50$
Big Choppa: 3.50$
Exhaust: 1$ x3
Handle Arms: 1$ x5
Bike Frame: 8$ x3
Wheelguard: 1$ x3
Bosspole: 1$
Grand Total if EVERY bit sells: 73$ total
As you can see, specific bitz sell better than others. PK/ BC are wanted, the grot is wanted, the Bike itself is wanted. Guns and Legs are wanted. And these are "Buy It Now" Prices. Often rarer bitz can be bid up when they do the 99cent auction format. Bitz sellers are shrewed and know the 'market'. Often bitz start out low, and get more expensive or vice versa if people don't buy.
EVEN IF they only sold those core bitz, they are still getting more than retail and still clearing a nice profit if they bought from an internet discounter at 20%.
Does this impact people who were using trade accounts to get 45% off and then bidding it for close to 100% GAIN to GW MSRP? maybe. But GW also doesn't expect retailers to be opening products and bitting them out... or possibly they have seen fraud based upon that where boxes are opened and returned missing parts.
I don't think this will kill bitz and is not intended to. I think it may inconvenience some retailers, but as a person who buys bitz, they are still going to be available to me.
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Post by: xraytango
insaniak wrote: MrMoustaffa wrote:I think this is aimed at retail outlets. for example, I went to one store that will remain unnamed that was selling the Dark Vengeance box broken up into its individual parts (hellbrute, cultists, etc.) He was buying the boxes straight from GW than selling the models off piecemeal.
I bet without a doubt thats what Gw is trying to clamp down on.
Sure... which is ridiculous, since it doesn't affect anyone without a trade account.
So it actually does the exact opposite of protecting B&M stores, since all it actually does is remove their ability to compete with the bits sellers who don't have a trade account. It won't stop the bits trade... it will just remove those sales from B&M stores.
One more example of GW's complete inability to understand the internet.
Maybe they do understand the internet, they just want to fight it as opposed to oil and hone it as you would a fine and well-used tool.
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Post by: nkelsch
 jimbolina25 wrote:nkelsch wrote:Bits sellers on eBay don't have trade accounts, they get a kit and break it up. They can still do that. They can't prevent that from happening.
.
I'm proof that your reply is incorrect
Well then, no more trade account for you. No way to get a kit at 45% off and then sell it for 200% value. I am not going to cry for your lost profits.
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Post by: Le Grognard
Wow, I guess the email came out. The excrement is really going to collide with the mechanical air-circulator:
"Their move today makes it 'against the rules' to sell their product to anyone under 14, sell bits or prepainted product and even advertise a particular product is in our stores online, and quite possibly made it against the rules to post pictures of people playing with their products in our stores."
Just wow.
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Post by: Dr. What
 hotsauceman1 wrote:overkongen wrote:Different countries might have different rules, but surely once you buy something you own it and can resell it however you like.
It depends, In america you cant modify your phone to do what you want it to.
This isn't true. It's legal to do things such as jailbreaking, but a company has the right to refuse any service regarding the "hacked" product.
I'm taking a lot of salt with this thread. Part of me wants to believe it's a troll.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
It's basically irrelevant. GW cannot get auctions pulled from it, so what happens is the shop "sells" the product to a trusted partner who "does not work for the shop" and that person puts the bits on ebay "on their own" and brings the money back to "buy more models".
There's no way for GW to connect that without a private investigator, plus the only penalty they can ACTUALLY give someone is the revocation of their trade contract.
If I'm reading it right, though, it does mean that local stores can't sell painted models or used stuff anymore. I've seen a ton of shops with a case of used models. And EVEN THEN, if the contract is written just right, the store might still be able to sell on consignment or something.
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Post by: Adam LongWalker
 WarOne wrote: insaniak wrote:
One more example of GW's complete inability to understand the internet.
I wouldn't say inability to understand internet is their fatal flaw, but GW's concept tof how they can control the flow of their product. It's apparent in how they have stated they want to aggressively push their NA store model by hundreds of locations, control trade accounts and slowly suffocate them, and lastly restrict the internet businesses from conducting their business revolving around GW products that it looks like the endgame for GW is to sell their product strictly by themselves and themselves alone. Perhaps a few LFGS will be graced by GW products, but by and large it appears GW wants every customer to revolve around them rather than independent retailers.
As I have been saying for months. It is all about their revenue streaming process. The end game that you have posted is to me correct. Complete and total control of their product via the British Business model that they have been trying to do in other countries.
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Post by: insaniak
nkelsch wrote:Well then, no more trade account for you. No way to get a kit at 45% off and then sell it for 200% value. I am not going to cry for your lost profits.
Not all of that '200%' (which it most certainly isn't on most kits) is pure profit. Selling bits is time-consuming, tedious work... which, along with the mathematial wizardry required to actually make it profitable is, I suspect, the main reason that most bits sellers seem to come and go within a few months... They see the mark-up and think it's an easy way of making a buck without realising just how crappy a job it is.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
Has anyone here ever made money in an MMO or kingdom of loathing through arbitrage or crafting? That's basically what bits selling is like. Tedious and difficult.
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Post by: Kalamadea
nkelsch wrote: jimbolina25 wrote:nkelsch wrote:Bits sellers on eBay don't have trade accounts, they get a kit and break it up. They can still do that. They can't prevent that from happening.
.
I'm proof that your reply is incorrect
Well then, no more trade account for you. No way to get a kit at 45% off and then sell it for 200% value. I am not going to cry for your lost profits.
Really? I am. They're providing a much needed service that GW flat out refuses to do. There's a CLEAR demand for what they do. It makes GW money. It makes them money. It saves us, the end user, money. It's a win for everybody. Or it was.
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Post by: nkelsch
insaniak wrote:nkelsch wrote:Well then, no more trade account for you. No way to get a kit at 45% off and then sell it for 200% value. I am not going to cry for your lost profits.
Not all of that '200%' (which it most certainly isn't on most kits) is pure profit. Selling bits is time-consuming, tedious work... which, along with the mathematial wizardry required to actually make it profitable is, I suspect, the main reason that most bits sellers seem to come and go within a few months... They see the mark-up and think it's an easy way of making a buck without realising just how crappy a job it is.
Oh, I know it is a crappy job and a lot of work... You have to make the decision of how valuable or worthless your 'time' is. It is a way to turn time into money and if you are particular good at it, you can do some good stuff. I know a guy who buys second-hand lots and ebays them. It is his full-time work while he goes to school and he does well enough to beat a hourly wage job with his time.
If that profit is paying your hourly wage, then it is keeping you in cash at the expense of your time. If you can't do it well enough to justify your time, or your time is better used elsewhere, then don't sell bitz.
And bitz service is not a charity and I am not going to treat them as such. And if people can't do the work with the 20% discounters price, then all that will happen is bitz prices will go up to compensate.
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Post by: jimbolina25
nkelsch wrote: jimbolina25 wrote:nkelsch wrote:Bits sellers on eBay don't have trade accounts, they get a kit and break it up. They can still do that. They can't prevent that from happening.
.
I'm proof that your reply is incorrect
Well then, no more trade account for you. No way to get a kit at 45% off and then sell it for 200% value. I am not going to cry for your lost profits.
And right there you've proven not only your lack of knowledge on online retailers trade costs, but also the bits business on the whole.
7942
Post by: nkelsch
jimbolina25 wrote:nkelsch wrote: jimbolina25 wrote:nkelsch wrote:Bits sellers on eBay don't have trade accounts, they get a kit and break it up. They can still do that. They can't prevent that from happening.
.
I'm proof that your reply is incorrect
Well then, no more trade account for you. No way to get a kit at 45% off and then sell it for 200% value. I am not going to cry for your lost profits.
And right there you've proven not only your lack of knowledge on online retailers trade costs, but also the bits business on the whole.
Then enlighten us anonymous faceless bitz seller who is impacted by this... I know multiple bitz sellers who do just fine getting kits for 20-30% off as well as second-hand sprues which are half-used, cutting them up and selling them for bitz on ebay. So some people can do it just fine.
If there is a business model there, it will continue. Smart business people will figure it out and the market will adjust if there is value.
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Post by: WarOne
 Adam LongWalker wrote: WarOne wrote: insaniak wrote:
One more example of GW's complete inability to understand the internet.
I wouldn't say inability to understand internet is their fatal flaw, but GW's concept tof how they can control the flow of their product. It's apparent in how they have stated they want to aggressively push their NA store model by hundreds of locations, control trade accounts and slowly suffocate them, and lastly restrict the internet businesses from conducting their business revolving around GW products that it looks like the endgame for GW is to sell their product strictly by themselves and themselves alone. Perhaps a few LFGS will be graced by GW products, but by and large it appears GW wants every customer to revolve around them rather than independent retailers.
As I have been saying for months. It is all about their revenue streaming process. The end game that you have posted is to me correct. Complete and total control of their product via the British Business model that they have been trying to do in other countries.
And yet the worst of this if this is their true endgame that it destroys what the hobby is for many people. Many LFGS will probably be indifferent to GW enthusiasts coming to their store playing GW when they themselves do not profit. And GW has been reducing their table space for more selling room, demos, or simply downgrading relevant gaming space in pursuit of more money.
Streamlining may make more money for GW, but at the end of the day, they ruin the fun aspects of the hobby for everyone.
20956
Post by: Empchild
nkelsch wrote: insaniak wrote:haroon wrote:Those bit sellers have trade accounts with gw, they need it to buy at the 45% discount from gw so then can then sell the bits.
As someone who has been watching the 'bitz market' for a specific model for 6+months now, I can tell you this is true. I have been buying Ork Bikes when they reached a 'low' price for specific bitz or whole models.
Ork Warbike Mob:
Retail GW US$: 41.25
20$ off: 33.00$
So let's see how bitz sellers break up this particular kit. These prices are LOW and many of these bitz go for way more than this. You can find these prices right now on eBay.
Bike Mantel: 1$ x4
Grot: 2$
Biker legs: 2$ x3
Dakkagun: 3$ x3
Handlebars: 1$ x3
Torso: 2$ x4
CCW arms: 1$
Ork head: 1$ x3
PK: 3.50$
Big Choppa: 3.50$
Exhaust: 1$ x3
Handle Arms: 1$ x5
Bike Frame: 8$ x3
Wheelguard: 1$ x3
Bosspole: 1$
You need to find a new shop as I sell that whole box at $28.50... just saying. Proof====>
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Post by: xraytango
So here's the rub. GW sells its products to a FLGS for a wholesale price (undoubtedly taking a middle-mans/distributor portion in this equation) and the FLGS marks it's price to what it needs to have in order to turn a profit, either by volume or by MSRP.
So then if FLGS breaks down a kit in to it's constituent parts and sells all or most of those off, they still have to order stock from GW to replace that stock to sell again. Mind you that GW gets their cut on the distribution side of things, still. How on earth does that hurt GW? GW gets it's money, as well as increased movement of product and the FLGS gets to profit, stay in business and sell more GW product. The cycle continues...
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Post by: AllSeeingSkink
xraytango wrote: Kingsley wrote:You know, there's a lot of negativity around GW, but I think this might be the first time that I've ever heard them referred to as socialist.
WE have the greatest models in the world, WE have all the things you need, WE are your mother and your father.
I was showing how the culture over there has influenced the corporate mentality of GW.
Either that or I read too much Orwell as a kid and see red where there isn't any
lolwut? I may not have a good idea of what socialism is but I'm pretty sure this all fits nice and snugly in to capitalism far more than socialism.
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Post by: Aerethan
The quick answer to this is to set up bits sellers as a separate company. For Warstore it's pretty simple in that they already buy at wholesale, and they could just set up a new ebay account and continue on.
Rules like this never pan out, as there is no way to police it realistically.
Also, this doesn't affect anyone who wholesales from a non GW distributor.
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Post by: insaniak
xraytango wrote:So then if FLGS breaks down a kit in to it's constituent parts and sells all or most of those off, they still have to order stock from GW to replace that stock to sell again. Mind you that GW gets their cut on the distribution side of things, still. How on earth does that hurt GW? .
The thinking is that it allows the sale of that one box to a bunch of different people. It that wasn't an option, all of those people would have to have bought a whole box each... so better sales.
It ignores the fact that if the store isn't selling those bits, someone else is. So the store just loses sales if they aren't selling bits.
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Post by: WarOne
 Empchild wrote:
You need to find a new shop as I sell that whole box at $28.50... just saying. Proof====>
Also, Emp offers a membership program to drop prices further and give you better rates on FREE SHIPPING- so bulk buying becomes even better!
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Post by: Empchild
WarOne wrote: Empchild wrote:
You need to find a new shop as I sell that whole box at $28.50... just saying. Proof====>
Also, Emp offers a membership program to drop prices further and give you better rates on FREE SHIPPING- so bulk buying becomes even better!
Just posted a bitz sale too as honestly I find this all kinda funny...and I used to work for GW too!
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Post by: WarOne
Empchild wrote: WarOne wrote: Empchild wrote:
You need to find a new shop as I sell that whole box at $28.50... just saying. Proof====>
Also, Emp offers a membership program to drop prices further and give you better rates on FREE SHIPPING- so bulk buying becomes even better!
Just posted a bitz sale too as honestly I find this all kinda funny...and I used to work for GW too!
Really, your mini-rule book prices are some of the best around as well for DV.
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Post by: Empchild
WarOne wrote: Empchild wrote: WarOne wrote: Empchild wrote:
You need to find a new shop as I sell that whole box at $28.50... just saying. Proof====>
Also, Emp offers a membership program to drop prices further and give you better rates on FREE SHIPPING- so bulk buying becomes even better!
Just posted a bitz sale too as honestly I find this all kinda funny...and I used to work for GW too!
Really, your mini-rule book prices are some of the best around as well for DV.
I know, probably why I can never keep the things in stock. Bits rule and yes it is a lot of work doing them especially how I do them because all are bagged labeled and hung up. It adds some cost but makes for a better work environment. I did have one employee a couple years back quit after a month because he couldn't keep up cutting 9 battleforces a day. This mind you was when I did ebay. It's a lot of work but honestly you have to have a love for it because if you don't then you won't survive.
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Post by: Old Man Ultramarine
As a co-owner of store with OP, I have glanced at this paperwork and confirm post as factual. Ask your FLGS owner..
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Post by: WarOne
Empchild wrote: WarOne wrote: Empchild wrote: WarOne wrote: Empchild wrote:
You need to find a new shop as I sell that whole box at $28.50... just saying. Proof====>
Also, Emp offers a membership program to drop prices further and give you better rates on FREE SHIPPING- so bulk buying becomes even better!
Just posted a bitz sale too as honestly I find this all kinda funny...and I used to work for GW too!
Really, your mini-rule book prices are some of the best around as well for DV.
I know, probably why I can never keep the things in stock. Bits rule and yes it is a lot of work doing them especially how I do them because all are bagged labeled and hung up. It adds some cost but makes for a better work environment. I did have one employee a couple years back quit after a month because he couldn't keep up cutting 9 battleforces a day. This mind you was when I did ebay. It's a lot of work but honestly you have to have a love for it because if you don't then you won't survive.
So is it possible to do a quick breakdown of how much it costs to do all this with your current business model in place?
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Post by: Le Grognard
 Old Man Ultramarine wrote:As a co-owner of store with OP, I have glanced at this paperwork and confirm post as factual. Ask your FLGS owner..
And all the other shenanigans like not being able to sell to anyone under 14?
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Post by: AegisGrimm
So the big question is whether or not this will affect buying my bitz from The Warstore. They may be somewhat expensive, but I use them for many small projects, and this will put a huge damper in my side of the hobby- modelling and converting.
I seriously think GW's business method is becoming a process of going up to a person, asking them if they play any GW games, and if they say "yes, I really like your games", punching them in the mouth and walking away saying, "good".
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Post by: xraytango
I wonder if that has more to do with hobby supplies like, knives, glue, snips than with selling the models.
That is no sales to under 14 y.o.'s
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Post by: Empchild
I'll PM you so as to keep the thread on topic.
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Post by: decker_cky
Le Grognard wrote:Wow, I guess the email came out. The excrement is really going to collide with the mechanical air-circulator:
"Their move today makes it 'against the rules' to sell their product to anyone under 14, sell bits or prepainted product and even advertise a particular product is in our stores online, and quite possibly made it against the rules to post pictures of people playing with their products in our stores."
Just wow.
The underlined part is absolutely against EU laws (won't protect rest of world retailers though). The rest is strange. The pictures one in particular seems like it will just promote alternative products.
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Post by: mechanicalhorizon
Can someone post the actual terms, e-mail or newsletter with this info listed?
Until I see the actual wording then I'm taking this with a huge grain of salt.
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Post by: Empchild
mechanicalhorizon wrote:Can someone post the actual terms, e-mail or newsletter with this info listed?
Until I see the actual wording then I'm taking this with a huge grain of salt.
The problem is generally you can't as their is legal terms you sign and they post disclaimers. It sucks but I used to have to deal with it...
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Post by: mechanicalhorizon
Empchild wrote:mechanicalhorizon wrote:Can someone post the actual terms, e-mail or newsletter with this info listed?
Until I see the actual wording then I'm taking this with a huge grain of salt.
The problem is generally you can't as their is legal terms you sign and they post disclaimers. It sucks but I used to have to deal with it...
I see no reason someone who has them can't scan it or cut&paste the text so we can see it for ourselves.
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Post by: insaniak
Which doesn't affect the US, which is where this is happening. And the bit about pics has been in place for years. It's goes along with the US prohibition on webcarts.
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Post by: Empchild
mechanicalhorizon wrote: Empchild wrote:mechanicalhorizon wrote:Can someone post the actual terms, e-mail or newsletter with this info listed?
Until I see the actual wording then I'm taking this with a huge grain of salt.
The problem is generally you can't as their is legal terms you sign and they post disclaimers. It sucks but I used to have to deal with it...
I see no reason someone who has them can't scan it or cut&paste the text so we can see it for ourselves.
Non-disclosure, generally means if you show this you get sued. This may not be the case but it used to be fairly standard with GW so it wouldn't surprise me.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
mechanicalhorizon wrote: Empchild wrote:mechanicalhorizon wrote:Can someone post the actual terms, e-mail or newsletter with this info listed?
Until I see the actual wording then I'm taking this with a huge grain of salt.
The problem is generally you can't as their is legal terms you sign and they post disclaimers. It sucks but I used to have to deal with it...
I see no reason someone who has them can't scan it or cut&paste the text so we can see it for ourselves.
Because the risk to have their account canceled isnt worth satisfying a persons curiosity. People tend to talk, and there are white knights who would gladly turn over names of people to GW for whatever brownie points it might score them.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
niceguyteddy wrote:New GW terms for trade accounts prohibits sales of items not in their original packaging as well as a few other shenanigans. Thoughts for bits sellers?
No effect on them if they don't deal directly with GW. Any seller getting their GW stock through third party distributors will be unaffected by this just as they are unaffected by the web store shopping cart ban.
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Post by: AllSeeingSkink
 Sean_OBrien wrote:mechanicalhorizon wrote: Empchild wrote:mechanicalhorizon wrote:Can someone post the actual terms, e-mail or newsletter with this info listed?
Until I see the actual wording then I'm taking this with a huge grain of salt.
The problem is generally you can't as their is legal terms you sign and they post disclaimers. It sucks but I used to have to deal with it...
I see no reason someone who has them can't scan it or cut&paste the text so we can see it for ourselves.
Because the risk to have their account canceled isnt worth satisfying a persons curiosity. People tend to talk, and there are white knights who would gladly turn over names of people to GW for whatever brownie points it might score them.
Honestly I'm surprised some of these haven't come out though. I'm surprised no one has given it to someone they trust to post it so they can stay anonymous or simply posted it on an anonymous account. Of course I wouldn't expect a store owner to post it on their site or on their forum account of which people know they are the owners of a particular store.
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Post by: krazynadechukr
received the GW newsletter through the post, part of it states"We would like to draw particular attention to stockists that re-sell our products via distribution channels that fail to meet our quality standards. As our terms state, we will not be able to supply any stockist that uses these distribution methods (i.e. located in non perminent premises or utilising internet auction sites) to re-sell Games Workshop products. "at the bottom it says"Until next month, have a great and hopefully sunny June"
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Sean_OBrien wrote:mechanicalhorizon wrote: Empchild wrote:mechanicalhorizon wrote:Can someone post the actual terms, e-mail or newsletter with this info listed?
Until I see the actual wording then I'm taking this with a huge grain of salt.
The problem is generally you can't as their is legal terms you sign and they post disclaimers. It sucks but I used to have to deal with it...
I see no reason someone who has them can't scan it or cut&paste the text so we can see it for ourselves.
Because the risk to have their account canceled isnt worth satisfying a persons curiosity. People tend to talk, and there are white knights who would gladly turn over names of people to GW for whatever brownie points it might score them.
Honestly I'm surprised some of these haven't come out though. I'm surprised no one has given it to someone they trust to post it so they can stay anonymous or simply posted it on an anonymous account. Of course I wouldn't expect a store owner to post it on their site or on their forum account of which people know they are the owners of a particular store.
No doubt it will happen soon enough, but from the sounds of things, these terms just came out today. If nothing else we will see confirmation by a store like The War Store removing their bits section as they order direct (and in fact are a distributor as well).
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Post by: Happygrunt
I am shocked. This is ridiculous. Stores will have to card people to buy GW products now?
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Post by: Miguelsan
krazynadechukr wrote:received the GW newsletter through the post, part of it states"We would like to draw particular attention to stockists that re-sell our products via distribution channels that fail to meet our quality standards. As our terms state, we will not be able to supply any stockist that uses these distribution methods (i.e. located in non perminent premises or utilising internet auction sites) to re-sell Games Workshop products. "at the bottom it says"Until next month, have a great and hopefully sunny June"
Like the underlined part so instead of: we will refuse or we will not GW just can't. Evil market forces don't allow poor GW to sell stuff I'm gonna cry so hard.
Back on topic let me see if I got this. I already have a (pirated) pdf of the 6th ed rules to see how they work until next month I go and visit my friendly but not local store and get the parts I want from the DV box, the booklet and the cultists, but GW in their infinite wisdom will close his trade account if he dares to sell the DV box in bits and pieces. So what's going to happen is that I will buy those things online or even worse for GW I won't buy them at all and print the pdf because I'm not going to pay the mark up they generously impose on those of us that live in Japan.
Keep up the good work GW and next year everybody around here will be playing Warzone, game that I'm buying because they are not calling me dumb.
M.
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Post by: WarOne
Sooo...how will GW find out about these contractual breaches? Pose as hobbyists, buy the product from bitz stores, and then remove their stockist status out of spite once they match addresses?
I highly doubt actual bit collectors would do this, so the burden of proof would be on GW to prove.
Of course, that is treading a dangerous line regardless.
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Post by: Empchild
WarOne wrote:Sooo...how will GW find out about these contractual breaches? Pose as hobbyists, buy the product from bitz stores, and then remove their stockist status out of spite once they match addresses?
I highly doubt actual bit collectors would do this, so the burden of proof would be on GW to prove.
Of course, that is treading a dangerous line regardless.
It sounds like they are going to attempt to go after distributors which i don't see happening. Under privacy agreements all stores and information cannot be given out. Really it's a scare tactic and all they are doing is killing their own business. Bits sites such as mine exist because of a need in the market. GW shouldnt have stopped selling bits simple as that.
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Post by: WarOne
Empchild wrote: WarOne wrote:Sooo...how will GW find out about these contractual breaches? Pose as hobbyists, buy the product from bitz stores, and then remove their stockist status out of spite once they match addresses? I highly doubt actual bit collectors would do this, so the burden of proof would be on GW to prove. Of course, that is treading a dangerous line regardless.
GW shouldnt have stopped selling bits simple as that.
They do still have certain bits (metal meltaguns and the like for example) but the buy in cost for most of those items are staggering. So no wonder they want to try and curb the bitz market; their website becomes the sole proprietor of limited bit kits (their dreams).
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Post by: niceguyteddy
Honestly I'm surprised some of these haven't come out though. I'm surprised no one has given it to someone they trust to post it so they can stay anonymous or simply posted it on an anonymous account. Of course I wouldn't expect a store owner to post it on their site or on their forum account of which people know they are the owners of a particular store.
Trust no one.
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Post by: TheContortionist
where is the source for this? This is not possible unless the want to stop making models all together.
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Post by: creeping-deth87
So... I just wanna make sure I have this straight. Retailers with trade accounts can no longer sell stuff out of its original packaging (so no more bits), and have to card anyone who looks younger than 14? The second part sounds especially weird to me since kids seem to be GW's bread and butter nowadays.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Wow, a real new low for GW.
Anybody got popcorn cause this is going to be good.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
 creeping-deth87 wrote:So... I just wanna make sure I have this straight. Retailers with trade accounts can no longer sell stuff out of its original packaging (so no more bits), and have to card anyone who looks younger than 14? The second part sounds especially weird to me since kids seem to be GW's bread and butter nowadays.
14 is a common age forna few different regulations regarding things like chemicals in products and a need to have certain warning labels. Most likely, their newvpaint line (or something like that) doesnt meet a safety standard for children 13 and younger...so to avoid a big warning label or an expensive reformulation less that a year later...simply tell retailers that they cant sell to people under 14. It is a CYA by GW and removes liability from them to the retailer.
Since many under the age of 16 in the US have no ID card that they carry...it will be nearly impossible to enforce.
Also, keep in mind that manufacturers can and do place restrictions on who distributors can sell to as well. I know for years PP and Flames of War could only be sold to companies who had a physical store even if you went through a third party distributor (harder to enforce...but I would expect some version of this to trickle out through distributors as well).
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Wait, They cant sell their product to someone younger then 14? Why?
I hope this doesnt affect my local LGS, they sell bits i need.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Don't worry, there is no way they can enforce it.
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Post by: SkaerKrow
I should think that GW has profited from the Bits industry, as those Bits all come from kits that were purchased from GW. If they really think that they're going to sell someone that only wants a couple of Space Marine arms an entire kit...well, that's an adorable little fantasy that they've cooked up.
I wish that 40k was produced by a more likable company, because as much as I enjoy the game and the hobby, I'm really disenchanted by the Montgomery Burns style business practices that they insist on following.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Meh, maybe they wil go under and have the 40k and Fantasy IP bought by someone else that does a better job.
Although I don't like the thought, its more likely that the whole thing would get ripped apart and distributed by several companies.
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Post by: Harriticus
GW;s war against its veteran consumers continues. Bafflingly stupid policy.
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Post by: Amaya
What I've gathered from this thread is that Games Workshop has gone from being a spud to full potato and honestly wants everyone to hate them. I must say, they are launching a convincing campaign.
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Post by: Surtur
Will people please just stop supporting and/or buying GW stuff, please? I would like to have a larger other game pool to play games with.
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Post by: jonolikespie
 SkaerKrow wrote:I should think that GW has profited from the Bits industry, as those Bits all come from kits that were purchased from GW. If they really think that they're going to sell someone that only wants a couple of Space Marine arms an entire kit...well, that's an adorable little fantasy that they've cooked up.
I wish that 40k was produced by a more likable company, because as much as I enjoy the game and the hobby, I'm really disenchanted by the Montgomery Burns style business practices that they insist on following.
Sadly that is exactly what they think, upper management seems to be convinced the smelly nerds will buy anything they put there name on. And, more importantly, they see FLGS, bitz sellers and companies like chapterhouse as taking their business away because if we couldn't by shoulders elsewhere we'd pay the extra $40 to buy them from GW.
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Post by: Sarigar
insaniak wrote: MrMoustaffa wrote:I think this is aimed at retail outlets. for example, I went to one store that will remain unnamed that was selling the Dark Vengeance box broken up into its individual parts (hellbrute, cultists, etc.) He was buying the boxes straight from GW than selling the models off piecemeal.
I bet without a doubt thats what Gw is trying to clamp down on.
Sure... which is ridiculous, since it doesn't affect anyone without a trade account.
So it actually does the exact opposite of protecting B&M stores, since all it actually does is remove their ability to compete with the bits sellers who don't have a trade account. It won't stop the bits trade... it will just remove those sales from B&M stores.
One more example of GW's complete inability to understand the internet.
This was the question I had and you answered it. Trade account holders. Bits sales will go on. Thanks for the input.
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Post by: Mywik
Im quite sure you cant do such stuff in germany. Retailers will laugh at them.
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Post by: Kroothawk
 Harriticus wrote:GW;s war against its veteran consumers continues. Bafflingly stupid policy.
GW's war on conversions will only lead to pushing companies like Chapterhouse, Puppet's War, Kromlech, Maxmini, Secret Weapons etc. Good job, GW
Le Grognard wrote:"Their move today makes it 'against the rules' to sell their product to anyone under 14, sell bits or prepainted product and even advertise a particular product is in our stores online, and quite possibly made it against the rules to post pictures of people playing with their products in our stores."
So selling toy soldiers to children is illegal now? Also hinting at the fact that you sell GW products? All this in addition to GW's hunting down veteran gamers by every means possible?
redcapscorner wrote:I'm a retailer with a trade account, but all I can say is that I've known all week that tonight is the night we're supposed to find about the "new changes to GW's trade account policies" which will be "aimed at supporting brick & mortar stores at the expense of online vendors."
So GW will stop selling official rulebooks like "Death from the Skies" as mail order only, in addition to all other mail order only things like Basilisk tanks and character models? 
This is a big C&D to everyone trying to sell GW products. Why, just why does GW hate customers so much? 
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Post by: rich1231
Mywik wrote:Im quite sure you cant do such stuff in germany. Retailers will laugh at them.
Its been in GW's European trade terms for years already.
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Post by: Mywik
rich1231 wrote:Mywik wrote:Im quite sure you cant do such stuff in germany. Retailers will laugh at them.
Its been in GW's European trade terms for years already.
All shops here sell bits. They will continue to do so.
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Post by: Pacific
You want to be a bit careful, the Chapterhouse case showed that GW has many little servants and sycophants hiding in forums - little grovelling helpers who are all too eager to please their masters by submitting information about people who are breaking GW's rules 
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Post by: marv335
I'm sure this happened years ago, in the UK at least.
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Post by: Sidstyler
I find this the most hilarious of the new changes. Most of the business decisions they've been making here lately have been for the purpose of trying to fleece as much money from gullible children as possible, who they think will be impressed enough by their staff members making pew pew noises during demo games that they'll make mommy and daddy buy them $1000 armies that they will then discard a few short months later when they realize painting and modeling is hard and they go back to their Xbox, and they've been deliberately trying to chase vets off in an attempt to accomplish that goal.
Now the company that's in the business of "selling toy soldiers to children", apparently can't sell toy soldiers to children. lol
Although I wonder, does this only apply to paints, glue, tools etc., or all GW products? Granted it's silly to try so hard to sell the hobby to children when they can't legally buy the necessary tools to partake in it anyway, but still.
 Pacific wrote:You want to be a bit careful, the Chapterhouse case showed that GW has many little servants and sycophants hiding in forums - little grovelling helpers who are all too eager to please their masters by submitting information about people who are breaking GW's rules
What the hell do people get out of this, anyway? I know GW used to offer free models to people who would tip them off to recasters, do they do anything similar for these rats or are they just that brainwashed that they do it for free?
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Post by: Kroothawk
Sidstyler wrote: Pacific wrote:You want to be a bit careful, the Chapterhouse case showed that GW has many little servants and sycophants hiding in forums - little grovelling helpers who are all too eager to please their masters by submitting information about people who are breaking GW's rules
What the hell do people get out of this, anyway?
Stockhom syndrome
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Post by: Miguelsan
Soon we will be forbidden to play GW games anywhere without our GW Empty Skull Card (TM) a must for the serious HHHHobist for only 100$ a month*
M.
*Basic fee for 100pts games extra charges will apply for additional pts**
**Japan and Oceania must add a 500% extra fee because you are so far away.
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Pacific wrote:You want to be a bit careful, the Chapterhouse case showed that GW has many little servants and sycophants hiding in forums - little grovelling helpers who are all too eager to please their masters by submitting information about people who are breaking GW's rules
Despite GW ordering them not to come onto forums, many will be store employees, fully topped up with righteous zeal, programming from the little red book and love for the company, well, until they get fired in the next wave of 'commissar summary executions' or 'exterminatus' or whatever creepy fictional crossover term they are applying to their repulsive corporate practices this week...
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
SkaerKrow wrote:
I wish that 40k was produced by a more likable company, because as much as I enjoy the game and the hobby, I'm really disenchanted by the Montgomery Burns style business practices that they insist on following.
FFG is pretty friendly. ALthough I've not played any of their 40k RPGs I buy them all the time just to read, the book are well written, creative and fun.
AND FFG tells you months in advance what's coming down the pike.
They're getting a lot more of my hobby dollar than GW.
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Post by: WarOne
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Despite GW ordering them not to come onto forums, many will be store employees, fully topped up with righteous zeal, programming from the little red book and love for the company, well, until they get fired in the next wave of 'commissar summary executions' or 'exterminatus' or whatever creepy fictional crossover term they are applying to their repulsive corporate practices this week...
I like to think former GW employess become honorary squats...
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
It's worth stepping back and taking a look at this and all the other business practices, the overseas sales, the C&Ds, all of it over the past few years.
It's all about GW trying to force the market or the fanbase or the independent stores or the 3rd party manufacturers to something they're comfortable with instead of adapting and shaping up to take on the new challenges and profit from them. Any company worth it's salt would be looking to step up to accommodate it's customers (ok, we know bits sell, we no longer want to split our own boxes, which bits are selling and lets make some sprues for them, see if they shift' or 'let's sell individual sprues before boxing, give the customer the option to just direct order a specific sprue of plastics instead of the whole kit'. 3rd party manufacturers you say? Sculpting well are they? Here's our licensing agreement, as long as you just make optional parts and not whole models, you may use our IP at 'this rate', or, you know, ignore them and actually make the best toy soldiers in the world and make the bits we ask you for.
GW, instead of trying to adapt to the realities, seeks to force reality to conform to it's wishes, to what is most convenient to it. It has become the corporate equivalent of King Canute, sitting on the beach and ordering the tide not to rise... or taking the ocean to court for it's audacity... 
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Post by: WarOne
MeanGreenStompa wrote:
GW, instead of trying to adapt to the realities, seeks to force reality to conform to it's wishes, to what is most convenient to it. It has become the corporate equivalent of King Canute, sitting on the beach and ordering the tide not to rise... or taking the ocean to court for it's audacity...
Or having a splinter of a Tyranid fleet devour all the squat homeworlds....
GW is entrenching their trademarks and copyrights, making sure that their IPs are protected and hedging out I guess what they consider competition.
That is what makes me laugh; they see the second hand market and third parties as competition- people who would not survive without GW products (in a vacuum mind you ignoring other game systems) and thus people they should see as PARTNERS rather than enemies.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:GW, instead of trying to adapt to the realities, seeks to force reality to conform to it's wishes, to what is most convenient to it. It has become the corporate equivalent of King Canute, sitting on the beach and ordering the tide not to rise... or taking the ocean to court for it's audacity...
All the while claiming they have a copyright on waves.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
 Kroothawk wrote: Sidstyler wrote: Pacific wrote:You want to be a bit careful, the Chapterhouse case showed that GW has many little servants and sycophants hiding in forums - little grovelling helpers who are all too eager to please their masters by submitting information about people who are breaking GW's rules
What the hell do people get out of this, anyway?
Stockhom syndrome
Nice
I'd wager that USPS tripling international shipping costs will have much more of an impact on the bitz market than this new GW policy, though.
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Post by: logg_frogg
I'm assuming they are doing this to try and stop the eBay retailers that sell product as *new without box* to get around GW's cross border trade regulations.
I would definitly like to see the source for these changes as well.
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Post by: pretre
I want to start a 'GW prohibits Heroin Use in store employees' thread to see what happens.
This has been a non issue since page one. Lol
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Post by: Grundz
1. order under current name
2. sell bitz under different name/website/address
problem solved
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Post by: Warboss Gubbinz
Here is a link to the PDF on Google Docs:
https://doc-14-cc-docs.googleusercontent.com/docs/securesc/f2u2j42j0ioq2j9uqecikflho41lbo7a/u777h85jbii7h41q7h5p3stigjue225k/1363442400000/04079268591086403494/09650871989658418762/0B2zne5ewd4fBemhzRE5KM3BlUGs?e=download&nonce=qgcm8g4v98mfe&user=09650871989658418762&hash=85kurtcv2g1d904ep0gkaeqb9dlv5uoj
Here's the section, some mod may want to put this on the first page.
For the reasons set forth below, Retailers are not permitted to remove GAMES WORKSHOP
product from its original packaging or otherwise break such products into components prior to
resale. In recent years, GAMES W ORKSHOP has observed a practice among some Retailers in
which GAMES W ORKSHOP products are removed from their original packaging for the purpose of
reselling separately individual, unmarked components. This practice is now prohibited for the
following business reasons:
Protection of Brand Image: GAMES W ORKSHOP’s original packaging, which
bears GAMES W ORKSHOP’S trademarks and copyrighted imagery, is specifically
designed to be consistent with GAMES W ORKSHOP’s established brand image.
The resale of GAMES W ORKSHOP products (or components thereof) in unmarked
or generic packaging is inconsistent with that brand image and can serve to
devalue the product.
Protection of GAMES WORKSHOP’S Intellectual Property: Through its use of
GAMES W ORKSHOP’s trademarks and copyrighted imagery, the original packaging
provides clear and reliable identification of the product as a genuine GAMES
W ORKSHOP product. The sale of GAMES W ORKSHOP products (or components
thereof) in unmarked or generic packaging, if left unchecked, can be injurious to
GAMES W ORKSHOP’s intellectual property rights.
Avoidance of Confusion: The resale of GAMES W ORKSHOP products (or
components thereof) in unmarked or generic packaging also can lead to
confusion as to whether the product being sold is a genuine GAMES W ORKSHOP
product or a generic imitation. Such confusion is detrimental to the GAMES
W ORKSHOP brand and the intellectual property rights that protect it.
Ensuring Proper Labeling: GAMES W ORKSHOP’s packaging and labeling is
specifically designed to inform the Consumer as to the contents, quality and
safety of the product he or she is purchasing. When GAMES W ORKSHOP products
(or components thereof) are sold separately in unmarked or generic packaging,
the Consumer does not receive this valuable labeling information at the point of
sale. Preservation of the original packaging and labeling prior to resale,
therefore, ensures that the Consumer is receiving accurate and reliable product
information.
Uniformity in Product Configurations: GAMES W ORKSHOP products are
packaged and sold in certain configurations designed to appeal to the Consumer
and maximize the marketability of the products. Such configurations are an
integral part of GAMES WORKSHOP’S marketing strategies that drive consumer
expectations. The resale of components in unmarked or generic packaging
undermines those strategies and the ability of GAMES W ORKSHOP to offer a
uniform line of products to the marketplace.
FINAL 15 MARCH 2013
To the extent GAMES WORKSHOP, in its sole discretion, should manufacture, package and
label individual product components, GAMES W ORKSHOP may make available such individual
components for resale only as originally packaged and labeled by GAMES W ORKSHOP. For the
reasons explained above, Retailers are prohibited from removing any individually packaged and
labeled GAMES W ORKSHOP components from their original packaging for the purpose of reselling
such individual components to Consumers.
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Post by: thundering
Now just to clarify;
Can a store buy used armies from a customer, then resell them, since that doesn't constitute removing components from original packaging?
Even though it does constitute reselling items to consumers without original packages.
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Post by: Commander Cain
See I read that google doc as all good stuff. Devaluing the product? Brilliant. Removing expensive labeling? Even better!
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Post by: hotsauceman1
They still wont pass the savings onto you.
Sometimes i wish i didnt go onto the Rumors.
It really makes me hate GW sometimes.
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Post by: J'santai Khan
I think the whole thing stinks! Living in an area where the nearest retailer is over an hour away, it is much more convenient for me to buy on-line, save 20% or so over the GW price and do it all from the comfort of my home. As an avid GW gamer since 1987, who owns more than 8000 minis from GW alone, I hope this back fires on them in every nasty way possible.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
How will they have proof they got them from OOTB??
Who cares if they cant sell to someone under 14? thats good IMO
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
pretre wrote:I want to start a ' GW prohibits Heroin Use in store employees' thread to see what happens.
This has been a non issue since page one. Lol
It's an issue to most indy retailers I've known as they've been opening and splitting the boxed set games since there have been boxed set games, that is now verboten under these new rules.
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Post by: TheContortionist
It's this kind of crap that makes me glad i'm selling out of the hobby.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
remember plent of other retailers are prevented from splitting 'box sets' they have bought
especially in the food retail ares
eg multipacks of crisps or chocolate, or soft drinks
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Post by: hotsauceman1
What if this does mean they are brining back the Bitz service.
Hotsauceman1 said naively.
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Post by: BlackRaven1987!!
As long as Ebay continues to sell bits and used armies I will be happy. From what I read it doesnt effect EBay so all good.
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Post by: Miguelsan
@Orlando: Usually because the packs they sell have a lower cost per unit than the same product sold as a single item, exactly the same than in GW.... errrr not
M.
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Post by: davou
hotsauceman1 wrote:overkongen wrote:Different countries might have different rules, but surely once you buy something you own it and can resell it however you like.
It depends, In america you cant modify your phone to do what you want it to.
incorrect, you cant modify your service providers phone. If you bought the phone, then its yours. If however you paid 85 cents for your phone then you have to abide by the terms put forth by the people who agree'd to eat a 400 dollar loss on that phone.
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Post by: Grimstonefire
GW could have contacted ebay years ago and instructed them not to allow anyone to sell any bits. Period.
I imagine they didn't is because ebay would laugh in their faces...
All bitz people have to do is legally seperate their businesses and supply from one to the other for breaking up. Job done. I can't imagine the bitz provider is legally obliged to give GW any details of their trading address, owner or supplier unless they are sued.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:remember plent of other retailers are prevented from splitting 'box sets' they have bought
especially in the food retail ares
eg multipacks of crisps or chocolate, or soft drinks
The vast majority of goods you can. Most soft drinks can be split and sold as single cans or bottles. Many things like crisps and chocolates are available in single serving sizes from vending machines or gas stations. They frown on opening up a big bag of chips and selling those by the handful, but even there...you can find delis that do as much with anything from chips to pickles to drinks from large containers.
Food manufacturers do what they do for compliance issues (marking nutritional data for example). Beyond that, they dont care.
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Post by: Balisong
Um.... Isn't GW already back in the Bitz business?
I mean, at least 1/3 of the FW Horus Heresy releases have been weapons packs, shoulder pads, command squad and vehicle upgrades...
Looks like Bitz to me...
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Post by: Pacific
@Balisong - 4-5 years ago (or was it more?) GW had an awesome bits service. You could literally buy any single component from any one of their miniatures, so of course anything that is around these days is going to pale in significance compared to that - even overpriced packs of FW bolters and the like.
They want you to think they are the Hobby. Actions like the one described in this thread makes you think their upper management must genuinely believe it as well; only a company that genuinely existed within a monopoly situation would be so customer unfriendly and seemingly constantly declaring war on the independent shops that sell their products.
But, nothing could be further from the truth. There is a whole world of other wargames out there, many of which have pretty good discussion here on Dakka and their own section: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369662.page Another good way of finding a new game is by looking on a big wargaming store website, and just spending half an hour clicking on random stuff!
Thanks in part to the internet, there is a wide range of high quality wargames, many of which offer something different, that are growing and more popular now than ever (with apparently a 20% growth in the industry last year).
hotsauceman1 wrote:They still wont pass the savings onto you.
Sometimes i wish i didnt go onto the Rumors.
It really makes me hate GW sometimes.
I still play the occasional game of 40k, but I'm not really into it that much at the moment. If I was, you're right, I wouldn't want to visit some of the forums and read about this kind of stuff. Simply because I'm principled, and don't find it easy to want to be part of, or give money to, a company that is run by a bunch of arseholes.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Well, TBH if i followed all my principles, i would would even be on the internet. I would have to be hunting wild bears with a knife and bow to feed myself.
You have to give up some princibles to live.
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Post by: Pacific
haha yes you are right mate, although in this situation it's easy - there is only one company that goes on in this way in the industry, you can take your pick from any one of the others that are generally far more conscientious.
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Post by: Davor
Why are people complaining about GW prices? If you have to complain about GW prices (which I do as well, guilty as charged) then you are not part of GW demographic for sales.
Why are we not complaining about the prices of Ferraris and other high priced cars? Because most of us don't make the money to get them, so we don't complain about it.
GW is not for the common gamer. It's a luxury item just like Ferraris and other high performance cars or any other luxury expensive items. They are not made for us. Just like GW is not made for us either.
So to keep complaining about prices and going else where, GW doesn't care, because their sales were never intended for us in the first place. If we buy it's just a bonus. If we don't buy, it's no loss to GW in the first place, because they don't expect a sale from us anyways.
So while it sucks that GW is preventing Bitz sales, that is what we should be complaining about, not their overpriced minis and how expensive they are to get.
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Post by: Lockark
Pacific wrote:
They want you to think they are the Hobby. Actions like the one described in this thread makes you think their upper management must genuinely believe it as well; only a company that genuinely existed within a monopoly situation would be so customer unfriendly and seemingly constantly declaring war on the independent shops that sell their products.
Games workshop is a Oligopoly in a very niche market, and does own the majority of the market share for this industry.
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Post by: Davor
 Lockark wrote: Pacific wrote:
They want you to think they are the Hobby. Actions like the one described in this thread makes you think their upper management must genuinely believe it as well; only a company that genuinely existed within a monopoly situation would be so customer unfriendly and seemingly constantly declaring war on the independent shops that sell their products.
Games workshop is a Oligopoly in a very niche market, and does own the majority of the market share for this industry.
That is true. If GW ceased to exist today, I am sure, while the other market share will see a small increase, the "Hobby" will be dead because all the GW players just want GW and nothing else. The Hobby is only big as it is, is because of GW.
Only reason why a lot of FLGS exsist, is because of Magic the Gathering. GW sales are second after that. (At least over here). So if there is no Magic, GW is not strong enough for these FLGS to open. So if GW can't even keep a FLGS open how is the other market share going to do it?
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Post by: CIsaac
 Grimstonefire wrote:GW could have contacted ebay years ago and instructed them not to allow anyone to sell any bits. Period.
I imagine they didn't is because ebay would laugh in their faces...
All bitz people have to do is legally seperate their businesses and supply from one to the other for breaking up. Job done. I can't imagine the bitz provider is legally obliged to give GW any details of their trading address, owner or supplier unless they are sued.
This is covered in the retailer policy, too. Basically retailers are prohibited from selling to anyone who is not a consumer. Selling to other retailers, services, companies,etc is verboten.
Now, it'd be easy to get around this as they couldn't force you to open your books, but if they caught wind, they could shut you down and point at existing policy.
Under section 1, general requirements:
Retailers are permitted to resell GAMES W ORKSHOP products to Consumers only.
Retailers are prohibited from reselling GAMES W ORKSHOP products to other Retailers,
distributors or any other non-Consumer customers.
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Post by: Le Grognard
WarOne wrote: MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Despite GW ordering them not to come onto forums, many will be store employees, fully topped up with righteous zeal, programming from the little red book and love for the company, well, until they get fired in the next wave of 'commissar summary executions' or 'exterminatus' or whatever creepy fictional crossover term they are applying to their repulsive corporate practices this week...
I like to think former GW employess become honorary squats...
Heh. I still have that vaunted 'little red book' and give it a read from time to time and giggle.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Davor wrote: Lockark wrote: Pacific wrote:
They want you to think they are the Hobby. Actions like the one described in this thread makes you think their upper management must genuinely believe it as well; only a company that genuinely existed within a monopoly situation would be so customer unfriendly and seemingly constantly declaring war on the independent shops that sell their products.
Games workshop is a Oligopoly in a very niche market, and does own the majority of the market share for this industry.
That is true. If GW ceased to exist today, I am sure, while the other market share will see a small increase, the "Hobby" will be dead because all the GW players just want GW and nothing else. The Hobby is only big as it is, is because of GW.
Only reason why a lot of FLGS exsist, is because of Magic the Gathering. GW sales are second after that. (At least over here). So if there is no Magic, GW is not strong enough for these FLGS to open. So if GW can't even keep a FLGS open how is the other market share going to do it?
Lots of shops in the US have dropped or nearly dropped GW products from their inventory. Of the 4 in the area around where I live, only 2 carry any GW products and one of those has so little GW stock on hand, I could quite easily carry it all out without a need for a cart. The one that carries a bit more actually only has the minimum stock levels to maintain their GW trade account...otherwise they too would have cut back. Other companies games and products get the lion's share of the space, whether it is a mix of smaller games like those from Wyrd or the full PP line or even a full wall dedicated to Reaper figures.
If GW were to disappear, I don't think it would be nearly as bad as some people seem to think it would be.
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Post by: Ravenous D
MrMoustaffa wrote:I think this is aimed at retail outlets. for example, I went to one store that will remain unnamed that was selling the Dark Vengeance box broken up into its individual parts (hellbrute, cultists, etc.) He was buying the boxes straight from GW than selling the models off piecemeal.
I bet without a doubt thats what Gw is trying to clamp down on.
My guess is its GW fighting its greatest weakness, the second hand market. They've been doing it for years, ever since they claimed that having a shopping cart for their products online in the US some how violated their IP to the embargo is Australia. We're now looking at a second embargo on Australia (US stores being banned from shipping to OZ) and an attack on bitz, second hand, and after market.
Clearly all our money is going to their lawyers, jeez.
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Post by: Davor
Sean_OBrien wrote:Davor wrote: Lockark wrote: Pacific wrote:
They want you to think they are the Hobby. Actions like the one described in this thread makes you think their upper management must genuinely believe it as well; only a company that genuinely existed within a monopoly situation would be so customer unfriendly and seemingly constantly declaring war on the independent shops that sell their products.
Games workshop is a Oligopoly in a very niche market, and does own the majority of the market share for this industry.
That is true. If GW ceased to exist today, I am sure, while the other market share will see a small increase, the "Hobby" will be dead because all the GW players just want GW and nothing else. The Hobby is only big as it is, is because of GW.
Only reason why a lot of FLGS exsist, is because of Magic the Gathering. GW sales are second after that. (At least over here). So if there is no Magic, GW is not strong enough for these FLGS to open. So if GW can't even keep a FLGS open how is the other market share going to do it?
Lots of shops in the US have dropped or nearly dropped GW products from their inventory. Of the 4 in the area around where I live, only 2 carry any GW products and one of those has so little GW stock on hand, I could quite easily carry it all out without a need for a cart. The one that carries a bit more actually only has the minimum stock levels to maintain their GW trade account...otherwise they too would have cut back. Other companies games and products get the lion's share of the space, whether it is a mix of smaller games like those from Wyrd or the full PP line or even a full wall dedicated to Reaper figures.
If GW were to disappear, I don't think it would be nearly as bad as some people seem to think it would be.
That's good to know. I guess it's my area then. My city has nobody selling minis, I have to drive 1/2 min, to buy them now.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
And yet I still feel compelled to buy their models.
I think their mold relase has an addictive oderless smell on it.
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Post by: Gordash
Wotc allows their retailers to break apart the product and sell singles. Sports card retailers have been breaking apart product for years and selling singles. The argument that other retailers don't allow their product to be broken up and sold is silly.
This is nothing more than a cash grab and an attempt to control the secondary market. Usual gw silliness, nothing to see here. The smart will still find ways to sell melta guns for $10 a pop.
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Post by: jonolikespie
Davor wrote:Why are people complaining about GW prices? If you have to complain about GW prices (which I do as well, guilty as charged) then you are not part of GW demographic for sales.
Why are we not complaining about the prices of Ferraris and other high priced cars? Because most of us don't make the money to get them, so we don't complain about it.
GW is not for the common gamer. It's a luxury item just like Ferraris and other high performance cars or any other luxury expensive items. They are not made for us. Just like GW is not made for us either.
So to keep complaining about prices and going else where, GW doesn't care, because their sales were never intended for us in the first place. If we buy it's just a bonus. If we don't buy, it's no loss to GW in the first place, because they don't expect a sale from us anyways.
So while it sucks that GW is preventing Bitz sales, that is what we should be complaining about, not their overpriced minis and how expensive they are to get.
No.
Everything there is wrong, even GW admit they are trying to sell toys to kids.
The hobby itself is a bit of a luxury, it's a hobby after all, something you spend your spare time and extra income on but GW like to pretend they ARE the hobby. They want the 12 years olds to wander in, pick up a starter set, a codex and a battleforce before they've even played a game.
You can't compare GW to a Ferrari when they are trying to be the first and only stop in the hobby, in reality they are a used Ford dealership that likes to think they are selling Ferraris.
Davor wrote: Lockark wrote: Pacific wrote:
They want you to think they are the Hobby. Actions like the one described in this thread makes you think their upper management must genuinely believe it as well; only a company that genuinely existed within a monopoly situation would be so customer unfriendly and seemingly constantly declaring war on the independent shops that sell their products.
Games workshop is a Oligopoly in a very niche market, and does own the majority of the market share for this industry.
That is true. If GW ceased to exist today, I am sure, while the other market share will see a small increase, the "Hobby" will be dead because all the GW players just want GW and nothing else. The Hobby is only big as it is, is because of GW.
Only reason why a lot of FLGS exsist, is because of Magic the Gathering. GW sales are second after that. (At least over here). So if there is no Magic, GW is not strong enough for these FLGS to open. So if GW can't even keep a FLGS open how is the other market share going to do it?
I think FLGS will suffer, but as you say it's Magic that seems to keep most of them afloat. Warmahordes and the sudden interest in non- GW games would hopefully be enough to keep most of them in business.
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Post by: Bikeninja
There are ways of configuring things to be bought and sold in the used market. No one, not even GW can keep you from buying and selling things "used". I think they want to give more money to China. They could care less about GW's new little policy. Bits will be fine. It will just take a month or so for them to ship....from China.
I have not bought from the Resin dealers because it is just wrong. However, they are looking better and better everyday.
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Post by: 1000_Sons
Grimstonefire wrote:GW could have contacted ebay years ago and instructed them not to allow anyone to sell any bits. Period.
I imagine they didn't is because ebay would laugh in their faces...
All bitz people have to do is legally seperate their businesses and supply from one to the other for breaking up. Job done. I can't imagine the bitz provider is legally obliged to give GW any details of their trading address, owner or supplier unless they are sued.
Funny you should mention that, they did apparently but eBay told them to go #%^& themselves.
I do not see how this is enforceable. Sure, they could shut down Spikeybits but what about the hundreds of other small stores that are ran out basements that don't source from GW direct? They can't even enforce their embargo on eBay and shipping to Australia. There are lots of store that ship GW anywhere in the world on eBay. Try as they might to restrict bits sales of whatever, whenever there is a demand for something markets will always find a way to supply it.
If only they pursued Forgeworld recasters with the same vim and vigor that they focus on indy retailers that carry their products...
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Post by: Sidstyler
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Pacific wrote:You want to be a bit careful, the Chapterhouse case showed that GW has many little servants and sycophants hiding in forums - little grovelling helpers who are all too eager to please their masters by submitting information about people who are breaking GW's rules
Despite GW ordering them not to come onto forums, many will be store employees, fully topped up with righteous zeal, programming from the little red book and love for the company, well, until they get fired in the next wave of 'commissar summary executions' or 'exterminatus' or whatever creepy fictional crossover term they are applying to their repulsive corporate practices this week...
I liked how they constantly referred to the people doing maintenance and work on the site as servitors. Aren't servitors essentially lobotomized robot zombies? Doesn't seem like the most respectable thing to refer to the people working for you.
Then again I bet it's several magnitudes better than the names they have for the people who actually buy gak from them.
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Post by: d3m01iti0n
What the feth GW?!??!?!?!?!
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Y'know this is hurting them, Alot less conversions for people to see.
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Post by: Empchild
But it's helping me , ok I couldn't resist on that one sorry.
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Post by: AegisGrimm
*Endters room and takes a chair*
"Hello, my name is Christopher, and I have been buying GW products for more than 15 years, but apparently the company I used to be loyal to hates me more every year."
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Post by: hotsauceman1
If only we had enough money to buy all of GW stocks.
Maybe Kickstarter it.
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Post by: Tannhauser42
After reading that posted policy, describing how this is all meant to protect their IP, their brand, and to make sure customers know they're buying a genuine GW product, I can definitely see that this is a result of GW's failures with the CHS lawsuit.
The sad part is, this is exactly the opposite of what GW should have done. As already mentioned, this is just one more instance of GW refusing to adapt to changes in the market.
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Post by: logg_frogg
thundering wrote:Now just to clarify;
Can a store buy used armies from a customer, then resell them, since that doesn't constitute removing components from original packaging?
Even though it does constitute reselling items to consumers without original packages.
They can't touch second hand sales. they don't have a leg to stand on becuase you aren't buying it from them.
Who they are going after are the people who buy the product from them, open it then sell it as *like new with no box* at huge discounts.
This got around 2 of GW's other rules. 1: Don't sell brand new sealed product on eBay at a huge discount. 2: Don't ship outside your area of distribution just because you can undercut other's prices.
I fully realise that GW's prices put them above the average person's budget and that many consider them a *luxury hobby*
As a kid, I never found the game *cost prohibitive* to play and I had very little money.
I now make a very very healthy professional salary and have to question weather or not I want to pay $80 for the same land raider that was $50 2 years ago and I paid far less for when the model came out in 96'
When someone like me who has a huge disposable income has to start questioning buying their products THEY have issues.
trying to detroy the bitz market is dumb. trying to control crossborder sales I completely understand.
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Post by: Nagashek
Sidstyler wrote: MeanGreenStompa wrote: Pacific wrote:You want to be a bit careful, the Chapterhouse case showed that GW has many little servants and sycophants hiding in forums - little grovelling helpers who are all too eager to please their masters by submitting information about people who are breaking GW's rules
Despite GW ordering them not to come onto forums, many will be store employees, fully topped up with righteous zeal, programming from the little red book and love for the company, well, until they get fired in the next wave of 'commissar summary executions' or 'exterminatus' or whatever creepy fictional crossover term they are applying to their repulsive corporate practices this week...
I liked how they constantly referred to the people doing maintenance and work on the site as servitors. Aren't servitors essentially lobotomized robot zombies? Doesn't seem like the most respectable thing to refer to the people working for you.
Then again I bet it's several magnitudes better than the names they have for the people who actually buy gak from them.
True enough, though Privateer calls their studio painters "Brush Thralls" and the members of the community who organize events and introduce new players to the game as "Pressgangers." The names are mildly cutesy and not too bothersome to me. GW does plenty to be offended by, this isn't really one of them.
Really still wish GW had a similar outreach program for their customers. They could do it how Privateer does, with only one "Chaplain" per geographical area, who needs to own at least two armies of 500pts or more, fully painted and the attendant paperwork for them. You have to be associated with a brick and mortar store within your assigned radius, and are in charge of running regular events (tournies, campaigns, league nights or the like.) You also have to buy the new versions of the rules as they come out to stay "certified." In exchange, the "Chaplains" get discounts on ordering the new codecies and books direct from GW, have access to Preorders before other people, and get discounts on items purchased direct from GW, especially those items that are new for the armies they have told GW are the "trainer" armies they own or any starter sets, terrain, Realm of Battle boards, tokens, and so on.
Obviously they can't give them any real info or playtest rules, since that is not the way GW does its business (as opposed to PP giving out copies of its new edition rules to pressgangers for playtest) but there's still plenty that can be done that wouldn't cost GW a dime. Oh well.
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Post by: Empchild
Nags they used to have that, they were called Outriders and they were paid in product to run events.
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Post by: Savageconvoy
I find it a bit ironic that every time GW tries to protect their image they make themselves look worse.
What I don't understand is their bizarre train of thought on the issue. They don't want people removing the box because it then people won't know what it is or where it came from? When in court they tried to show how iconic their models were?!
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Post by: MajorStoffer
 Savageconvoy wrote:I find it a bit ironic that every time GW tries to protect their image they make themselves look worse.
What I don't understand is their bizarre train of thought on the issue. They don't want people removing the box because it then people won't know what it is or where it came from? When in court they tried to show how iconic their models were?!
But the court decided against that motion, for the most part. If I recall correctly, the court recognized the iconic nature of GW's Space Marine design, namely the large, curved shoulder pads, but threw out the rest, saying that generic sci-fi guns, armour, torsos and the like in 28mm scale doesn't count as copyright infringmenet.
Basically, GW was told, no, you don't own everything sci-fi in 28mm, and that probably coloured this decision. of course, it is entirely the wrong decision. GW has the resources and skill to completely out-compete all the third-party bits producers. They can produce higher quality bits, in plastic or resin, in high quantity and, theoretically, charge less for them and still make a profit, and most gamers would love to buy actual GW plasma guns, melta guns, armour modifications and tank upgrades from GW, but GW doesn't want to offer that service. They want people to buy entire kits or "upgrade sprues," with lots of useless gear and charge an absolute premium for them.
I mean, I'd love to buy some track guards for all my Leman Russ tanks, but am I going to buy the $15 upgrade sprue with an extra lower hull, upper turret, battle cannon, hunter killer, heavy stubber, tank commander, and so on for that particular bit? Not bloody likely. However, if GW offered just that bit for, say $5. GW seems to be willing to admit there is some bit demand, with the finecast plasma/melta gun sets you can buy, 5 for $12, which is slightly cheaper than most bits sellers offer, but they don't seem willing to fully embrace the fact that their customers like to personalize their armies.
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Post by: shingouki
In the UK once you buy something it's yours,you can do what you like with it.I assume as long as you are not selling the model as if you made it then there is no problem.Also when selling bits etc they are just gonna have GTF.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Slightly cheaper? meltaguns cost 5-6$ a piece from bit sellers.
2$ from GW.
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Post by: solkan
 shingouki wrote:In the UK once you buy something it's yours,you can do what you like with it.I assume as long as you are not selling the model as if you made it then there is no problem.Also when selling bits etc they are just gonna have GTF.
That's missing the point. If a retailer does something that GW doesn't like, and GW finds out about it, the next time that retailer goes to order GW stock, they get told, "No wholesale price for you. We'll sell you that merchandise for retail, or go elsewhere."
In other words, "Do it are way or you won't make any profit selling this."
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Davor wrote:Why are people complaining about GW prices? If you have to complain about GW prices (which I do as well, guilty as charged) then you are not part of GW demographic for sales.
Why are we not complaining about the prices of Ferraris and other high priced cars? Because most of us don't make the money to get them, so we don't complain about it.
GW pretends, its target customer is 14-15 year old millionaires. There must be a flaw in that marketing strategy.
Ferrari's customer base is adult millionaires, much more realistic.
Davor wrote:GW is not for the common gamer. It's a luxury item just like Ferraris and other high performance cars or any other luxury expensive items. They are not made for us. Just like GW is not made for us either.
Pretending that toy soldiers are luxury items and a niche product is just a sorry excuse why it is okay for GW marketing to lose customers every year.
1000_Sons wrote: Grimstonefire wrote:GW could have contacted ebay years ago and instructed them not to allow anyone to sell any bits. Period.
Funny you should mention that, they did apparently but eBay told them to go #%^& themselves.
"Our products sell less and less each year. Suggestions?"
"Lower prices so our customers can afford them."
"You're fired. Next?"
"Claim, second market is illegal."
"We tried, but the Chapterhouse case is not going well."
"Claim that second hand market is illegal."
"Nice. Send out new terms of trade."
BTW can't access the google document. Can someone post the part about "selling to children below 14 years is illegal"?
Edit: Found it.
BTW it's for North America only.
30305
Post by: Laughing Man
 Nagashek wrote: True enough, though Privateer calls their studio painters "Brush Thralls" and the members of the community who organize events and introduce new players to the game as "Pressgangers." The names are mildly cutesy and not too bothersome to me. GW does plenty to be offended by, this isn't really one of them.
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Post by: jah-joshua
when i painted for PP (before the Mcveys left) we were called Rivetheads, actually...
Pacific wrote: @Balisong - 4-5 years ago (or was it more?) GW had an awesome bits service. You could literally buy any single component from any one of their miniatures, so of course anything that is around these days is going to pale in significance compared to that - even overpriced packs of FW bolters and the like.
the only thing wrong with your logic here is that GW has never broken down plastic kits...
they have always sold a sprue at minimum, which is a hard choice to make for one part...
the only single bits one could order were all metal, and cast as single bits anyway...
guess which choice they made???
the reasoning they gave when they stopped bits orders was that it cost too much to have the trolls running around packing parts all day...
they certainly had tons of bits orders, back in the day, and a lot of staff that had to be paid to pack them...
this new streamlining may suck, but it is understandable from a business perspective...
the problem is, to save a little cash they piss of the majority of their loyal veteran customers...
now they have bits packs, and whole sprues...
with all the metal going to finecast, and being on a sprue, there goes that change for a return to loose metal bits...
sad days, when a company that used to feel like a friend goes corporate, and drops the customer relationships for shareholder's profits...
that's the way it is though...
the abusive relationship analogy gets more apt every year with GW...
makes me happy to be a painter, and not a gamer...
i can pick and choose, and don't have the same kind of emotional investment as the guys with 1000's of points worth of armies...
bummer for you guys:(...
cheers
jah
37505
Post by: Nagashek
Thanks for the corrections re: PP's painters' titles.
36718
Post by: Lovepug13
The more you tighten your grip lord vader, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.
Idiots......
66205
Post by: Rotgut
Sorry if I missed it, just skimmed but is there a source on this yet?
12021
Post by: miniwargaming
I haven't read all 6 pages of the replies, so I apologize if someone already posted this.
You can see all the new trade documents here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wn5gq2srlbvxs6l/mhXkq4nVgZ
These are the documents GW sent to me as a retailer, uploaded to my Dropbox, so they are legit.
50832
Post by: Sigvatr
Es ist Zeit für Reich....tum!
GW truly lives up to its terrible reputation.
20956
Post by: Empchild
Maybe i missed it but i saw no statements trying to constrict distributors.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Empchild wrote:Maybe i missed it but i saw no statements trying to constrict distributors.
Since when have silly things like "facts" gotten in the way of knee-jerk reactions, Emp?
20956
Post by: Empchild
Kanluwen wrote: Empchild wrote:Maybe i missed it but i saw no statements trying to constrict distributors.
Since when have silly things like "facts" gotten in the way of knee-jerk reactions, Emp?
I know but that being said all of this is for nothing then which makes it funnier.
60791
Post by: Sean_OBrien
Empchild wrote: Kanluwen wrote: Empchild wrote:Maybe i missed it but i saw no statements trying to constrict distributors.
Since when have silly things like "facts" gotten in the way of knee-jerk reactions, Emp?
I know but that being said all of this is for nothing then which makes it funnier.
Distributors would likely get their own letters...as the terms that they have different terms and obligations...that said, if you read the terminology carefully, then you will notice that they specify all retailers, and then retailers who have a trade account with GW. The only way that those new terms would get to the retailers who do not have a trade account would be to go through the various distributors. It is therefore reasonable to assume that new terms will also be going out to those distributors to set the new terms in place with retailers who work with the distributors.
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Post by: Ravenous D
9 times out of 10 GW is the distributor because you get less of a discount through an indirect source. Lion Rampart used to do that for retailers that hated working with GW. Sure you could go through them, but then you make a webstore with bits, GW finds out how you get them and the distributor gets cut off.
60791
Post by: Sean_OBrien
 Ravenous D wrote:9 times out of 10 GW is the distributor because you get less of a discount through an indirect source. Lion Rampart used to do that for retailers that hated working with GW.
A lot actually used distributors. You could skirt stock levels and other issues...
Reading the document again though, page 3 is the kicker. If you use a distributor and do not meet therms, GW can cancel the account for the distributor...so, thermyou go. Even people who use distributors are covered.
20956
Post by: Empchild
Ravenous D wrote:9 times out of 10 GW is the distributor because you get less of a discount through an indirect source. Lion Rampart used to do that for retailers that hated working with GW. Sure you could go through them, but then you make a webstore with bits, GW finds out how you get them and the distributor gets cut off.
You give them entirely too much credit as they are not the all seeing Oz.
30022
Post by: sithkhan
Who's been to Memphis, and chuckled when they read this part?
• GAMES W ORKSHOP products should never be sold in a location physically unsafe
for Consumers to visit or shop. GAMES W ORKSHOP accepts no liability in
association with Retailer store locations.
5859
Post by: Ravenous D
Empchild wrote: Ravenous D wrote:9 times out of 10 GW is the distributor because you get less of a discount through an indirect source. Lion Rampart used to do that for retailers that hated working with GW. Sure you could go through them, but then you make a webstore with bits, GW finds out how you get them and the distributor gets cut off.
You give them entirely too much credit as they are not the all seeing Oz.
They went after a nobody author because it had "space marine" in the title and a little company that was making add on parts. Dont put anything past the all seeing eye.
4183
Post by: Davor
Wasn't something said about not putting the minis in packaging, so people will not misunderstand where they came from?
So how come I saw at a LGS and a GW store, some of those white boxes with nothing on them except a small sticker to say what they are? This is GW white box packaging so is this illegal now? lol
30305
Post by: Laughing Man
Caught this on BoLS:
Section III, para. A;
"North American Retailers are not permitted to sell GAMES WORKSHOP products on any website, web-portal, third-party web-portal or other Internet-based platform of any kind."
So apparently it bans all online sales in North America as well?
20956
Post by: Empchild
 Laughing Man wrote:Caught this on BoLS:
Section III, para. A;
"North American Retailers are not permitted to sell GAMES WORKSHOP products on any website, web-portal, third-party web-portal or other Internet-based platform of any kind."
So apparently it bans all online sales in North America as well?
Its been like that since 2003.
@ravenous and they lost that suit.
5946
Post by: Miguelsan
Sean_OBrien wrote: Ravenous D wrote:9 times out of 10 GW is the distributor because you get less of a discount through an indirect source. Lion Rampart used to do that for retailers that hated working with GW.
A lot actually used distributors. You could skirt stock levels and other issues...
Reading the document again though, page 3 is the kicker. If you use a distributor and do not meet therms, GW can cancel the account for the distributor...so, thermyou go. Even people who use distributors are covered.
Was wondering about that. But will they be able to policy it? A distributor might end selling at Mr John Doe at 20% discount that sells GW bits online as TakethisGW on ebay, that might be hard and expensive to track down. On the other hand even if they get everybody to comply at worst we will see an increase on bit prices as sellers adjust the prices to full retail and customer migrate to more expensive higher quality 3rd party bits because bits are not going away no matter how hard GW wishes it.
M.
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Post by: MadCowCrazy
Well, it's now confirmed. MWG put this up: Click me Drop Box link with all the GW trade term pdfs This doesn't matter much, wont affect the big bits selling sites nor the ebayers. EU seems to have always had this restriction but that doesn't stop anything. If anything this will just lead to more money for the conversion bits making companies...
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Post by: xraytango
Poor 'ol GW, they have a real case of skitzophrenia because they can't decide whether they are a manufacturer, distributor, or retailer. These highly unreasonable policies only help their retail chain.
4183
Post by: Davor
So does this mean that a brick and mortar store can't sell online anymore?
Well I can't feel sorry for them. I mean I come to the store, want to buy and they charge me full GW price. I say where is the discount, they say I have to buy online.
I don't like to buy online. So they lost my in store purchase. I could never understand why a store while having an online store, not sell for less when buying in person.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
Ravenous D wrote: Empchild wrote: Ravenous D wrote:9 times out of 10 GW is the distributor because you get less of a discount through an indirect source. Lion Rampart used to do that for retailers that hated working with GW. Sure you could go through them, but then you make a webstore with bits, GW finds out how you get them and the distributor gets cut off.
You give them entirely too much credit as they are not the all seeing Oz.
They went after a nobody author because it had "space marine" in the title and a little company that was making add on parts. Dont put anything past the all seeing eye.
To be fair, they probably picked these smaller parties on purpose so they would have a higher chance of winning. If you want to sue an author so you can win the rights to be the only one who can use the words "space marine", who would you sue? The noname small time guy who nobody would probably care about, or a very accomplished author who will summon a legion of fans to stand by him?
And besides, it's not exactly hard to find 3rd party companies making "not 40k" bits. They probably have a running list of companies like victoria lamb, max mini, kromlech, chapterhouse, etc. and are just waiting for when they think they can shut them down.
443
Post by: skyth
 MadCowCrazy wrote:This doesn't matter much, wont affect the big bits selling sites nor the ebayers. EU seems to have always had this restriction but that doesn't stop anything.
If anything this will just lead to more money for the conversion bits making companies...
Technically, selling to people who break down the kits is prohibited. They are only allowed to sell to consumers, not to re-sellers.
Now, how this will be enforced is beyond me...But hey...
24228
Post by: xraytango
I sort of doubt they would go after Victoria, she's one of their own. She used to feature regularly in WD and IIRC she was on staff for awhile.
Besides, she may make similar figures, but it is all in what you call them, and she doesn't use GW name on her descriptors.
This will really hurt Battlewagon Bits, I hope they can find a way to stick it to GW.
Does this mean fewer sales for GW in the long run? My money says yes.
59176
Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Some of them do. My FLGS has a points card that, if your smart about it, saves you 20% in total. But they only offer 10% on the price tag, so any mystery shopper or regional sales people would only see minimal price adjustments.
20956
Post by: Empchild
Guys they will only hurt bits sites that buy direct from GW. Most of us don't buy.from gw as they haven't allowed stuff like this since 2003. Theirs no sticking it to GW as theirs no need. My philosophy is this they can't touch me as i don't buy from them and their is nothing they can do about it. Hence why i threw a sale to show how concerned about it i am as a bits seller.
60791
Post by: Sean_OBrien
It is more than that. As the document says, they can yank the account of anyone who sells to you (or someone like you). No doubt, they will have a hard time proving who is the supplier for a given bits company...but there is no shortage of white knights who will be willing to rat out a distributor or retailer who is supplying a bits seller.
If they get one or two of those and follow through with cancelling their trade accounts, then it will have a chilling effect on the remaining distributors as they pull back out of fear of loosing their own accounts.
Even if you are buying at full retail from a company, it is verbotten for them to sell to you if they know youbare in fact a bitz dealer, and it puts their trade account at risk. In theory, it would even if your supply wasnt fully aware that you were a bitz dealer.
They dont need to be all seeing in order to force the change. They just need one or two people who find out either directly or indirectly and report it back to them (see the CHS case for a few names of known white knights).
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
I can't even muster the strength to get angry about this gak any more. It just boggles my mind - leaving my absolutely dumbstruck - as to why a company would intentionally go out of the way to continuously put up barrier after barrier to selling their products.
I mean... who benefits from this, really?
They're just so clueless...
9883
Post by: Cyporiean
Every other gaming company
28238
Post by: Warboss Gubbinz
H.B.M.C. wrote:I can't even muster the strength to get angry about this gak any more. It just boggles my mind - leaving my absolutely dumbstruck - as to why a company would intentionally go out of the way to continuously put up barrier after barrier to selling their products.
I mean... who benefits from this, really?
They're just so clueless...
We both know what happened. Someone from finance got it in their heads on how much money they lose from selling full kits instead of a reseller profiting from single pieces. They made a model, added some graphs, pushed it up to Kirby and bamm, out comes the memo. What they didn't take into account was that they have to sell those kits to begin with. Ork legs don't make themselves.
68672
Post by: ausYenLoWang
this part of page 8 gave me a chuckle as an aussie
"POLICY REGARDING DOMESTIC SALES ONLY"
apparently its disruptive of their price gouging of aussies if americans sell to us....
24228
Post by: xraytango
Empchild wrote:Guys they will only hurt bits sites that buy direct from GW. Most of us don't buy.from gw as they haven't allowed stuff like this since 2003. Theirs no sticking it to GW as theirs no need. My philosophy is this they can't touch me as i don't buy from them and their is nothing they can do about it. Hence why i threw a sale to show how concerned about it i am as a bits seller.
here's what the issue is:
If I owned a B&M store and operated a website I could take phone or text orders for GW products from a remote customer. Now if I were to get product from GW at their distribution price (as I would for my shop) and decide to open the package and sell the kits or bits online in a shopping cart then under the 2003 agreement I would be safe as it was "used" product. Furthermore if I were to start a separate bits service subsidized by my main store then that would have been legal under the 2003 agreement as well. This changes all of that.
Now successful bits sellers that are attached to a store, or are a subsidiary thereof are banned by this new agreement. No longer can they buy the kit at cost, sell it to the other side of the business for a dollar and provide a useful service while profiting. This is crazy and why GW does not know what it wants to be. If it were soley a manufacturer with direct distribution then this would not be that much of an issue, but they have a retail (failing) arm that is a millstone around their neck and will do anything to maintain it. All while raising prices, alienating customers, and losing sales.
They will be selling fewer kits as many bits that are popular are only one or two per set, this will impact them as fewer sellers (see above for 'sellers') will be buying the kits to replenish their supply because of being banned from providing this service.. Remember GW makes most of it's money on the distribution side.
20956
Post by: Empchild
I understand the GW philosophy but am not going to shut down because i do what they wont.
54729
Post by: AegisGrimm
I feel a sudden urge to make a bitz order from the Warstore........
24228
Post by: xraytango
Well, that's fine, we know that you don't have a trade account so this won't affect you, but it will affect others and their ability do continue their thus far legal and profitable businesses while simultaneously providing a much needed service to customers.
54729
Post by: AegisGrimm
Believe me, I'm on our side, not GW's. That's my main location to get bitz from, and I would hardly like to see them be affected, too.
24228
Post by: xraytango
Just ordered bits from Warstore, help Neal out as much as we can guys!
I have a strong feeling that this new move by GW is directly aimed at him.
54729
Post by: AegisGrimm
There are plenty of bitz sellers as large (or larger) than Battlewagon Bitz. I seriously think it's just that GW hates loyal customers in some way, or at least it's become more and more like that since the early 2000's.
They obviously have to see that all the bitz out there still made them money in the first place. It's their own fault for dropping their own Bitz service. I seriously spent more money and made more orders with GW directly back then, just for bitz alone, than I have done with secondhand bitz dealers nowadays.
I think I actually made more individual purchases from GW online just for bitz than I made from trips to the two LGS' in my area combined.
20956
Post by: Empchild
 AegisGrimm wrote:There are plenty of bitz sellers as large (or larger) than Battlewagon Bitz. I seriously think it's just that GW hates loyal customers in some way, or at least it's become more and more like that since the early 2000's.
They obviously have to see that all the bitz out there still made them money in the first pthelace. It's their own fault for dropping their own Bitz service. I seriously spent more money and made more orders with GW directly back then, just for bitz alone, than I have done with secondhand bitz dealers nowadays.
True in overall he's in the middle level of bits as he makes way more off normal gw call in sales. He's a great guy and i have a good relationship with them. Atm Hoard'o'bits is the largest bits seller so if they were actually target someone it would be them.
71201
Post by: JWhex
I can understand the business decision GW made when they discontinued their bits service. Now with most models plastic it would be even harder for GW to run a bitz service.
The various independent companies are providing a service that GW really could not possibly engage in due to scale issues. The bitz purveyors are making sales that GW otherwise would not have. I just do not see anything positive for GW in their new policy. It is inexplicable.
29833
Post by: The Dwarf Wolf
Coming from GW... I dont need a source, sound like something they would do...
Now, about the real effects of it...
I will only coment this: when GW started the embargo thing, and i found i could not buy GW stuff from wayland games, i found another online store, a bit seller who sell complete kits out of original package, who aparently dont get their products from GW.
I think this will be so usefull for GW as a price increase, except for the extra money and incresaed selling "pre rise"...
70406
Post by: Alabaster.clown
H.B.M.C. wrote:I can't even muster the strength to get angry about this gak any more. It just boggles my mind - leaving my absolutely dumbstruck - as to why a company would intentionally go out of the way to continuously put up barrier after barrier to selling their products.
I mean... who benefits from this, really?
They're just so clueless...
It boggles my mind why people keep complaining about a stupid company making stupid moves to put up barriers to selling their stupid products, and yet still keep buying them.
They're just so clueless?
If nobody bought any GW products for 6 or so months, the company would go belly up, and the money saved could be pooled and then used to buy all the rights from the liquidators and make up a real company to set the game right, and maybe even employ Kirby as an office bitch at minimum wage.
Furby! I told you I wanted a latte! *SMACK*
34242
Post by: -Loki-
Alabaster.clown wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:I can't even muster the strength to get angry about this gak any more. It just boggles my mind - leaving my absolutely dumbstruck - as to why a company would intentionally go out of the way to continuously put up barrier after barrier to selling their products.
I mean... who benefits from this, really?
They're just so clueless...
It boggles my mind why people keep complaining about a stupid company making stupid moves to put up barriers to selling their stupid products, and yet still keep buying them.
If you actually read the boards much, you'd probably find the people complaining aren't buying anymore. Most want to because they like 40k, but don't because they dislike GW.
29833
Post by: The Dwarf Wolf
 -Loki- wrote:Alabaster.clown wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:I can't even muster the strength to get angry about this gak any more. It just boggles my mind - leaving my absolutely dumbstruck - as to why a company would intentionally go out of the way to continuously put up barrier after barrier to selling their products.
I mean... who benefits from this, really?
They're just so clueless...
It boggles my mind why people keep complaining about a stupid company making stupid moves to put up barriers to selling their stupid products, and yet still keep buying them.
If you actually read the boards much, you'd probably find the people complaining aren't buying anymore. Most want to because they like 40k, but don't because they dislike GW.
Hello, my name is The Dwarf Wolf, and im an clean fo 6 months now...
37755
Post by: Harriticus
The Dwarf Wolf wrote: -Loki- wrote:Alabaster.clown wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:I can't even muster the strength to get angry about this gak any more. It just boggles my mind - leaving my absolutely dumbstruck - as to why a company would intentionally go out of the way to continuously put up barrier after barrier to selling their products.
I mean... who benefits from this, really?
They're just so clueless...
It boggles my mind why people keep complaining about a stupid company making stupid moves to put up barriers to selling their stupid products, and yet still keep buying them.
If you actually read the boards much, you'd probably find the people complaining aren't buying anymore. Most want to because they like 40k, but don't because they dislike GW.
Hello, my name is The Dwarf Wolf, and im an clean fo 6 months now...
Pretty much. I love the 40k universe and buy either BL or ebay/ FLGS. Haven't bought from GW directly in long time.
19754
Post by: puma713
The more you tighten your grip, GW, the more wargamers will slip through your fingers.
99
Post by: insaniak
Davor wrote:So does this mean that a brick and mortar store can't sell online anymore?.
Again, that's been the case in the US for a decade.
60791
Post by: Sean_OBrien
insaniak wrote:Davor wrote:So does this mean that a brick and mortar store can't sell online anymore?.
Again, that's been the case in the US for a decade.
Yes, but they seem to be extending it some. Not only are these terms for the US but Canada as well, and I can think of a half dozen online stores off the top of my head which do actually sell NIB products through webstores (not counting eBay and Amazon) that are based in one of those two countries. Since they have included the language holding distributors responsible as well...those companies who went through a distributor like Alliance may well have their stores shut down.
The other thing of course will remain to be seen, but whether or not they will crack down on stores that skirt the issue by taking online orders through email. They dont specifically call it out, but the wording is strong enough to make me think that they might end up trying to stop those sales as well (though I seem to recall a regulation that would stop them from preventing telephone orders...though I would need to double check that).
3828
Post by: General Hobbs
Just to confirm....in the US...no more sales to lil Timmies under 14?????
68672
Post by: ausYenLoWang
3828
Post by: General Hobbs
Ah, so lil Timmy can still pollute a gamestore with his foul little presence....just have someone else buy for him.
5859
Post by: Ravenous D
xraytango wrote:Just ordered bits from Warstore, help Neal out as much as we can guys!
I have a strong feeling that this new move by GW is directly aimed at him.
So was the shopping cart thing a few years back, apparently the warstore was pulling in more business then GW online and they had to crush it by claiming using their pictures and product codes violated their IP
1464
Post by: Breotan
Local GW stores in Washington state sell to kids under 14 years old all the time. Why are they allowed to when LFGs are not?
5018
Post by: Souleater
 puma713 wrote:The more you tighten your grip, GW, the more wargamers will sliip through your fingers.
Please may I sig this?
68672
Post by: ausYenLoWang
 Breotan wrote:Local GW stores in Washington state sell to kids under 14 years old all the time. Why are they allowed to when LFGs are not?
part of the new laws in the US i think, its probably only covering Glue, Paint and pointy bits.. not models... nothing in the agreements that got linked singled any particular items out though it just said in relation to state laws or something...
3462
Post by: vic
xraytango wrote:I sort of doubt they would go after Victoria, she's one of their own. She used to feature regularly in WD and IIRC she was on staff for awhile.
Besides, she may make similar figures, but it is all in what you call them, and she doesn't use GW name on her descriptors.
This will really hurt Battlewagon Bits, I hope they can find a way to stick it to GW.
Does this mean fewer sales for GW in the long run? My money says yes.
Can I just clarify, I have never, ever worked for GW. All my minis that have been published in their books and magazines were my own miniatures which I painted for fun. I was never paid for any of it, nor expected to be.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
"The Waaagh on sales has begun! Fight the revenue!"
vic wrote:Can I just clarify, I have never, ever worked for GW.
You should be glad: GW is only looking for mindless drones copypasting old CAD designs without asking, not inspired sculptors like you.
25220
Post by: WarOne
Since I am all for anarchy this month, I totally approve this sentiment.
I wonder how stores will truly react to this; ignoring it or finding other methods of moving product that still remains profitable for them.
66205
Post by: Rotgut
So basically they don't want people making a profit off of their 'used' products.
This seems to be a lot like when video game companies complain about pre owned sales, the second sell nets them nothing.
It seems though that a lot of bit sellers will be unaffected by this, but I can easily see the prices of bits going up.
30108
Post by: Generalstoner
I am just going to leave my assessment at this. I sold all but one of my armies and have no desire to build another one since the costs are simply astronomical. I make excellent money at my job and have played GW games since the early 90's and their Soviet Union style of leadership has simply put me off.
As a result I have switched to other gaming systems like privateer press, malifaux etc. and have turned back to historical gaming as well. I feel there many like myself and that eventually we will find GW figures in bargain bins around the world.
54729
Post by: AegisGrimm
My problem is that while I hate the company (or at least the current version that's been around for about the last ten years), I love their IP so friggin' much that I just can't seem to kick it. Part of it was that it was my introductory to the hobby, way back in 2nd edition, when their relationship with the customers was simply awesome.
My only saving grace is that I have so many models and so many armies from all the years I have been in the hobby, their latest sales model doesn't affect me. Not that it doesn't make me sad for newbies, because they are in a situation that I could easily be in if i was born later.
41245
Post by: tarnish
I still buy, but loosely and i honestly cant see the major issue with this. It cant be enforced. Its impossible.
However their products have increased in quality and i enjoy the game more then ever. Quite happy with the state of things, i wouldn´t want to change a thing.
62863
Post by: ExNoctemNacimur
Ravenous D wrote:xraytango wrote:Just ordered bits from Warstore, help Neal out as much as we can guys!
I have a strong feeling that this new move by GW is directly aimed at him.
So was the shopping cart thing a few years back, apparently the warstore was pulling in more business then GW online and they had to crush it by claiming using their pictures and product codes violated their IP
That's legal?
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Post by: Harriticus
The not selling to kids under 14 is a bit perplexing. That is GW's target demographic right there with all the gak they've been pulling which has been driving away veteran/older gamers.
Contradictions are a notorious part of GW business "strategy" though so not that surprising.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Rotgut wrote:So basically they don't want people making a profit off of their 'used' products.
This seems to be a lot like when video game companies complain about pre owned sales, the second sell nets them nothing.
It seems though that a lot of bit sellers will be unaffected by this, but I can easily see the prices of bits going up.
Not exactly. This would be more equivalent to if shops like GameStop were taking games out of package and then selling the "Activation Codes" by themselves.
Harriticus wrote:The not selling to kids under 14 is a bit perplexing. That is GW's target demographic right there with all the gak they've been pulling which has been driving away veteran/older gamers.
Contradictions are a notorious part of GW business "strategy" though so not that surprising.
As has been mentioned, this likely deals with glues and spray primers.
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Post by: Empchild
Harriticus wrote:The not selling to kids under 14 is a bit perplexing. That is GW's target demographic right there with all the gak they've been pulling which has been driving away veteran/older gamers.
Contradictions are a notorious part of GW business "strategy" though so not that surprising.
Ya it actually doesn't say 14 years if you read it, it says it's up to the local stores and to follow the box which states "Not recommended for children under 12".
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Post by: Grobrotz
So what could happen when you are in a US GW Store and see a under 14 years old buy glue or paint or something from the prohibited goods? Could you call the cops and get the employee arrested for endangering children?
And if so, imagine it would be done in each GW shop in the US....
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Harriticus wrote:The not selling to kids under 14 is a bit perplexing. That is GW's target demographic right there with all the gak they've been pulling which has been driving away veteran/older gamers.
Contradictions are a notorious part of GW business "strategy" though so not that surprising.
That was ovr hyped in typical internet style,
It's just refering to some stuff like kinves/glue (which shops could not legally sell to 14 and under anyway)
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Post by: Kanluwen
 Grobrotz wrote:So what could happen when you are in a US GW Store and see a under 14 years old buy glue or paint or something from the prohibited goods? Could you call the cops and get the employee arrested for endangering children?
It would likely be "specific" kinds of glue (notably: cyanoacrylate) and spray paints. Not just paint pots, etc.
You could inform the police and they'll investigate, but most likely it would just be a minor fine.
And if so, imagine it would be done in each GW shop in the US....
Nothing really since there tends to be a parent present with most 14 year olds in shops due to the whole spread out nature of shops, etc.
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Post by: notprop
Grobrotz wrote:So what could happen when you are in a US GW Store and see a under 14 years old buy glue or paint or something from the prohibited goods? Could you call the cops and get the employee arrested for endangering children?
And if so, imagine it would be done in each GW shop in the US....
Nothing.
This is pure and simply backing down the "not for 14 and under" warning from thier packaging contractually to the retailer. So if little Timmy Timkins yes found off his rocker with a bottle of GW thick super glue in his hand, GW have done their best (legal minimum?) to ensure such things don't happen.
As for the bits thing, soft drink cans from multipacks have been sold here with "not to be sold separately" around the rim for a good couple of decades here. Not sure this makes GW the Great Satan again, perhaps just a sheep.
In realistic terms there is nothing here that anyone with an ounce of sense would waste five minutes on. I see this every day when drawing up contracts, some lawyer at head office has been justifying his/he time drafting legal bollox that will never be used, possibly they are introducing something from their last job.
So a storm in a tea cup again it would seem.
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Post by: Grobrotz
@ notprop: I did not ment this too seriously, but after reading about 5 years old being arrested for making pew pew noises while aiming their fingers as pistols at other children or being arrested for sexuall harresment for bathing naked in a pool no one can really know
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Post by: BlackRaven1987!!
I wonder what this means for Hoard'O Bits?
Hope they dont go away I buy bits from them all the time.
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Post by: ExNoctemNacimur
Fear the worst.
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Post by: notprop
The worst this will mean is that bits get slightly more expensive. People will still want them so the bits store will purchase from discount retail if they cant get what they want from an existing distributor. But when most charge anything from £1-10 for a single component in a £30 box buying full retail wouldnt be hugely onerous if the number if bits stores reduced.
Since GW put a heavy onus on having a B&M location in all likelihood the online Bits stores will already be getting their supply from a distributor who will naturally be under a supply contract that allows sale to non-consumers.
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Post by: Pacific
Yes you are right perhaps, but when all those things are added up they make a pretty disgusting tasting brew..
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Post by: skyth
Kanluwen wrote:Rotgut wrote:So basically they don't want people making a profit off of their 'used' products.
This seems to be a lot like when video game companies complain about pre owned sales, the second sell nets them nothing.
It seems though that a lot of bit sellers will be unaffected by this, but I can easily see the prices of bits going up.
Not exactly. This would be more equivalent to if shops like GameStop were taking games out of package and then selling the "Activation Codes" by themselves.
That is not a valid comparison. The game is useless without the activation code. One sprue of bits is not useless without another sprue of bits. Especially when they are sold as being bits, not as full kits.
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Post by: Ravenous D
 ExNoctemNacimur wrote: Ravenous D wrote:xraytango wrote:Just ordered bits from Warstore, help Neal out as much as we can guys!
I have a strong feeling that this new move by GW is directly aimed at him.
So was the shopping cart thing a few years back, apparently the warstore was pulling in more business then GW online and they had to crush it by claiming using their pictures and product codes violated their IP
That's legal?
In the US yeah, they couldnt touch Canada or UK because of the laws but GW went above and beyond to make sure no US online store could use their images or product codes. I dont know the current state but last I checked Warstore was still beating out GW online even without the shopping cart feature.
Come to think of it, that was really what kicked off GWs war on its customers, I cant think of anything before that where they were going out of their way to screw with people.
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Post by: Aerethan
Ravenous D wrote: ExNoctemNacimur wrote: Ravenous D wrote:xraytango wrote:Just ordered bits from Warstore, help Neal out as much as we can guys!
I have a strong feeling that this new move by GW is directly aimed at him.
So was the shopping cart thing a few years back, apparently the warstore was pulling in more business then GW online and they had to crush it by claiming using their pictures and product codes violated their IP
That's legal?
In the US yeah, they couldnt touch Canada or UK because of the laws but GW went above and beyond to make sure no US online store could use their images or product codes. I dont know the current state but last I checked Warstore was still beating out GW online even without the shopping cart feature.
Come to think of it, that was really what kicked off GWs war on its customers, I cant think of anything before that where they were going out of their way to screw with people.
To be more accurate, retailers were banned from using the GW stock photos that are shown on the GW site. A regular pic of the box itself would be completely separate and GW would have no ground to stand on there.
Moreover, bits sellers already charge =< the full retail of a box parted out. So if they are buying from trade accounts they could get shut down, but there is nothing about the system that prevents a bits store from buying as a regular consumer on paper.
Example:
Joe X runs www.omgwtfbitslulz.com out of his garage. He currently orders from a wholesaler under that DBA and gets the wholesale price of 35-40% off.
The wholesaler tells www.omgwtfbitslulz.com that they can no longer sell to him under the new GW terms.
So now instead of buying as the company, Joe X makes an order from ANY of the discount retailers for 25-30% off and moves on with his day. His margin may be less, but depending on how he's doing it and his prices he should be able to continue just fine. Perhaps his entire catalog of bits increases the 5-10% in price to make up the margin. At the end of the day he keeps on like nothing really happened. Instead of ordering as a business, he orders as an individual.
Companies keep customer info private, and GW has no legal grounds to request them unless something ILLEGAL were happening and a court said to release said records. Breaking GW trade terms is far from illegal.
This will impact the world just like the 2003 terms did, i.e. minimally. Smart individuals will work around it and continue on, just like they did with web stores and ebay.
GW can demand all they want, but their ability to enforce any of these terms is laughable.
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Post by: Empchild
The problem is some of you think bits dealers make tons of cash we don't. A lot of a box won't actually sell so you are stuck with lots of overstock. Also it can take a box upwards of a year to sell enough of it to buy a new one. So if i were to buy at msrp i would make almost no cash. I would make more by not selling stuff out of box but you do it because you love it. Bits is not a way to get rich or even get buy well but it is a way to provide a service others won't and if your like me it's one way to create your own product.
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Post by: skyth
Also, GW can close down any store that sells to you if you sell bits...Even if you buy at or above MSRP.
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Post by: notprop
GW can not close down a store.
They can cease a supply contract but that does not prevent said store approaching an independent distributor.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
 notprop wrote:GW can not close down a store.
They can cease a supply contract but that does not prevent said store approaching an independent distributor.
The new terms also target distributors and retailers who sell to bits dealers...
As far as GW having no grounds to obtain sales records...they actually do. Unlike the government, there is no need for a court order, and distributor/retail privacy policies normally have a clause that allows them to share information with trade partners. I would not be surprised if GW didnt already have a clause in their distributor contract which specifically called for that under the grounds of collecting market data.
How much effort they want to put into actual enforcement remains to be seen...but I see there as being much more significant of a move than the previous web cart policy.
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Post by: insaniak
Empchild wrote:The problem is some of you think bits dealers make tons of cash we don't. A lot of a box won't actually sell so you are stuck with lots of overstock. Also it can take a box upwards of a year to sell enough of it to buy a new one. So if i were to buy at msrp i would make almost no cash. I would make more by not selling stuff out of box but you do it because you love it. Bits is not a way to get rich or even get buy well but it is a way to provide a service others won't and if your like me it's one way to create your own product.
Funnily enough, ths is a problem that is largely the result of the success of the bits market in general.
Back when I started out on eBay, before anyone else had thought of selling plastic bits, prices were set entirely by the buyers and even buying my stock at discounted Oz retail profit was good.
When others started getting in on the act, while still confined to eBay, prices remained pretty good.
Then when people like Battlewagon Bits started getting in on the act and setting up actual websites selling bits, prices overall came down. Which was fine for those with trade accounts (and for customers, obviously), not so good for the others. So it will be interesting to see what, if any, impact this has on bits prices.
I'm betting on 'minimal' since people will find ways around it.
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Post by: Empchild
Oh i already have back up plans as any busy should it will just be added hassle.
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Post by: AllSeeingSkink
 Aerethan wrote:GW can demand all they want, but their ability to enforce any of these terms is laughable.
Can't they simply enforce it by not selling to a retailer who they suspect of on selling to bits sellers? I thought the right to refuse service was a pretty world wide one with only a few exceptions.
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Post by: liturgies of blood
Iirc, as a trader, you enter into an agreement with GW that has lots of restrictions.
One of these is secrecy on the upcoming releases.
They have a warning and suspension of new releases and then they stop selling to you.
It is a common trade agreement that you do not sell individual parts of products to customers. If Coke find out you're splitting the multi-packs of coke cans they stop selling or stop selling multi-packs to you.
It is done by LOTS of companies to protect their margins.
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Post by: judgedoug
 liturgies of blood wrote:Iirc, as a trader, you enter into an agreement with GW that has lots of restrictions.
It is a common trade agreement that you do not sell individual parts of products to customers. If Coke find out you're splitting the multi-packs of coke cans they stop selling or stop selling multi-packs to you.
It is done by LOTS of companies to protect their margins.
So vending machines and corner stores that sell individual cans violate Coke's trade agreement? What is this nonsense? Do you have knowledge of this trade agreement between Coke and every Coke retailer?
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Post by: Griever
What a joke this company has become. It's like they enjoy finding new ways to piss off their customers.
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Post by: liturgies of blood
 judgedoug wrote: liturgies of blood wrote:Iirc, as a trader, you enter into an agreement with GW that has lots of restrictions.
It is a common trade agreement that you do not sell individual parts of products to customers. If Coke find out you're splitting the multi-packs of coke cans they stop selling or stop selling multi-packs to you.
It is done by LOTS of companies to protect their margins.
So vending machines and corner stores that sell individual cans violate Coke's trade agreement? What is this nonsense? Do you have knowledge of this trade agreement between Coke and every Coke retailer?
No, you misread me.
You know the 6 pack of coke cans? They say not to be sold individually with a yellow label on them.
Coke or the suppliers to franchise chains will revoke selling to you if you do that.
Don't call it nonsense when you didn't even read what I said.
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Post by: fullheadofhair
so I am confused. GW terms of trade says you can only use a website to say you have GW inventory in your B&M store. So does this stop the whole emailing thing - like the warstore says, email your order etc
Can a company restrict a whole distribution stream like internet sales to only their website? is that actually legal - what above restraint of trade and stifling competition rules.
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Post by: TBD
If GW stops selling to every distributor and retailer they suspect is selling to someone who sells bits they will lose a lot of sales. I can't imagine strict enforcement of this would be a good business decision by them once the dust settled in the end.
And does this require distributors to know exactly what retailers do with the product after they sell it to them. It just sounds so incredibly rediculous. It's as if GW corporate found Kim Jong Il's guide on how to run a country and is applying it to their business dealings. This is just the latest chapter.
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Post by: liturgies of blood
They only need to catch a few. If you hear that they did act on some guys in the next city over, you might not want to risk that large revenue stream that your store has for a smaller one in bitz.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 fullheadofhair wrote:so I am confused. GW terms of trade says you can only use a website to say you have GW inventory in your B&M store. So does this stop the whole emailing thing - like the warstore says, email your order etc
Can a company restrict a whole distribution stream like internet sales to only their website? is that actually legal - what above restraint of trade and stifling competition rules.
It;s their product.
I can sell you a car and it's yours to do with as you want. If you want to buy another car every week and we make a contract that says 1 car a week but don't sell it to bill, if you sell to bill I am perfectly entitled to not sell to you.
It's the same with every company that is international, they don't want parallel sales going on. Within the EU you cannot restrict that as a company but they can restrict you from selling outside the EU and to other territories.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
If somebody's ordering $1000 of dollars of kits every month a distributor can be pretty sure it's a reseller even if it's going to a civilian address rather than 'bobs game store'
so they'd presumably need to ask the buyer to sign an agreement not to split the boxes to sell as bits to cover their ass with GW.
It's not clear whether they'd need to check to see whether the buyer complied......
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Post by: Empchild
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:If somebody's ordering $1000 of dollars of kits every month a distributor can be pretty sure it's a reseller even if it's going to a civilian address rather than 'bobs game store'
so they'd presumably need to ask the buyer to sign an agreement not to split the boxes to sell as bits to cover their ass with GW.q
It's not clear whether they'd need to check to see whether the buyer complied......
I know several a bunch of stores who order way more then that and they are not bitsing.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
liturgies of blood wrote:I can sell you a car and it's yours to do with as you want. If you want to buy another car every week and we make a contract that says 1 car a week but don't sell it to bill, if you sell to bill I am perfectly entitled to not sell to you.
And what if I sell it to someone who sells it to Bill? What if the only reason I sold it to this other person was so they could sell it to Bill, but you don't know that?
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
That's what I meant, if a distributor knows it's a store they're selling to, they can cover themselves and require no bitzing (even if they don't actually ever check)
I was trying to respond to they 'how would they know if they were supplying a bitzer' breaking an order down into smaller chunks is still going to be noticible (unless the orders are very small, and that's would be a major pain)
I'd imagine most distributors will go with 'don't ask, and PLEASE don't tell us' as a policy
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Post by: insaniak
judgedoug wrote:
So vending machines and corner stores that sell individual cans violate Coke's trade agreement? What is this nonsense? Do you have knowledge of this trade agreement between Coke and every Coke retailer?
Cans produced for individual sale are fine. Product made specifically to go into multi-packs though is often lacking certain legally required information, like nutritional panels, as this information is on the carton instead of printing it on each item. Breaking these up and selling them can therefore be a legal issue as well as contractual one.
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Post by: liturgies of blood
H.B.M.C. wrote: liturgies of blood wrote:I can sell you a car and it's yours to do with as you want. If you want to buy another car every week and we make a contract that says 1 car a week but don't sell it to bill, if you sell to bill I am perfectly entitled to not sell to you.
And what if I sell it to someone who sells it to Bill? What if the only reason I sold it to this other person was so they could sell it to Bill, but you don't know that?
Well that's hard to prove. If they suspect it strong enough they can just stop supplying to you.
This is not a new thing.
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Post by: judgedoug
liturgies of blood wrote:No, you misread me.
You know the 6 pack of coke cans? They say not to be sold individually with a yellow label on them.
Coke or the suppliers to franchise chains will revoke selling to you if you do that.
Don't call it nonsense when you didn't even read what I said.
They say "not labeled for individual resale", because they don't have a label on them. As Sean O Brien succintly put it earlier:
"The vast majority of goods you can. Most soft drinks can be split and sold as single cans or bottles. Many things like crisps and chocolates are available in single serving sizes from vending machines or gas stations. They frown on opening up a big bag of chips and selling those by the handful, but even there...you can find delis that do as much with anything from chips to pickles to drinks from large containers. "
Have you never eaten at a deli and gotten a pickle that they got from a jar?
How many game stores have snacks and drinks that come from 24-packs that are "not labeled for individual retail sale"?
I hope all the White Knights who blindly support this policy also turn in their local game stores to The Coca Cola Company.
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Post by: liturgies of blood
I don't support the policy, I just know where it comes from.
You don't usually have an agreement with how you sell pickles from your deli supplier but you do have merchandisers come into your store to ensure that products are being sold right in retail. Maybe in the US it's different but over here it's like that. Some products come with conditions if you want to sell them, others don't. It depends on who you buy from and what quantity you buy them in. Just because pickles doesn't have it doesn't mean that GW, big name brands, cars, electronics, drugs and a world of other companies that want to kill resale markets or parallel trade don't have clauses in their merchant agreements that limit how they sell the products.
Games stores are not grocery stores so they don't have the same agreements they buy from a wholesalers.
Similarly the guy that buys 200 tactile marine boxes from his local GW isn't subject to the same rules as my FLGS when they buy stock in from GW.
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Post by: AllSeeingSkink
judgedoug wrote: liturgies of blood wrote:No, you misread me.
You know the 6 pack of coke cans? They say not to be sold individually with a yellow label on them.
Coke or the suppliers to franchise chains will revoke selling to you if you do that.
Don't call it nonsense when you didn't even read what I said.
They say "not labeled for individual resale", because they don't have a label on them. As Sean O Brien succintly put it earlier:
"The vast majority of goods you can. Most soft drinks can be split and sold as single cans or bottles. Many things like crisps and chocolates are available in single serving sizes from vending machines or gas stations. They frown on opening up a big bag of chips and selling those by the handful, but even there...you can find delis that do as much with anything from chips to pickles to drinks from large containers. "
Have you never eaten at a deli and gotten a pickle that they got from a jar?
How many game stores have snacks and drinks that come from 24-packs that are "not labeled for individual retail sale"?
I hope all the White Knights who blindly support this policy also turn in their local game stores to The Coca Cola Company.
A quick googling tells me that many items labeled with "not for resale/individual sale" have identical packaging except for that note, so they DO have all the necessary labeling. The logical conclusion then is that it's because of agreements between the retailer and the distributor.
You have to make the distinction of "who is selling?". If I go to a shop and buy a 24 pack of something I have no agreement with the shop to not resell it and there's no law saying I can't resell it (as long as it's not a prohibited item). If you buy something from a distributor directly and have an agreement "I won't resell these individually", it still might not be illegal, but you risk the supplier cutting you off. I'm GUESSING this is the case with larger supermarkets and such.
It's not a universal "you can't resell things individually", hence the vending machines, chips/pickles from restaurants or going to your local gaming club and buying a single soda that they bought as a 24 pack. The question is whether the people who actually bulk purchased it from the Coca Cola Company have such an agreement.
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Post by: mikhaila
 Miguelsan wrote:Sorry but without a source I cannot believe this asinine policy.
M.
Will confirm. This is US/Canada policy. I just got done re-reading the new US terms of sale.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Is it true there was a non-disclosure agreement involed? I know they do it for their managers but didnt think they'd try and force retailers.
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Post by: mikhaila
fullheadofhair wrote:so I am confused. GW terms of trade says you can only use a website to say you have GW inventory in your B&M store. So does this stop the whole emailing thing - like the warstore says, email your order etc
Can a company restrict a whole distribution stream like internet sales to only their website? is that actually legal - what above restraint of trade and stifling competition rules.
Can't believe i'm saying this but....You have to approach it as RAW.
GW resticts the use of a shopping cart, or other similar method to buy their merchandise on the internet. They allow you to advertise that you sell the product.
Calling the store and placing an order is not buying on the internet.
Neal is probably ok, but will not be able to sell bits any longer.
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Post by: jonolikespie
You know if GW had tried this years ago it might have had the intended effect but at this point if they did restrict bitz sales of their own models wont it just help 3rd party manufacturers?
If I can no longer by that 1 meltagun I need I'm not going to buy GWs box of 5 finecast(?) ones, I'm going to go to Anvil Industry's or something and get one of theirs.
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Post by: silent25
Sean_OBrien wrote:It is more than that. As the document says, they can yank the account of anyone who sells to you (or someone like you). No doubt, they will have a hard time proving who is the supplier for a given bits company...but there is no shortage of white knights who will be willing to rat out a distributor or retailer who is supplying a bits seller.
If they get one or two of those and follow through with cancelling their trade accounts, then it will have a chilling effect on the remaining distributors as they pull back out of fear of loosing their own accounts.
Even if you are buying at full retail from a company, it is verbotten for them to sell to you if they know youbare in fact a bitz dealer, and it puts their trade account at risk. In theory, it would even if your supply wasnt fully aware that you were a bitz dealer.
They dont need to be all seeing in order to force the change. They just need one or two people who find out either directly or indirectly and report it back to them (see the CHS case for a few names of known white knights).
I see that running into some problems. Some of the larger distributors like Alliance in the US may push back. Having to double check every store that orders GW product is an expenditure of resources they likely don't have. It wouldn't surprise me if this is being review by their lawyers right now. Several hours of lawyer time is cheaper than having to hire a dedicated employee to review and double check all sales.
I also think you are being a bit too paranoid with so called "white knights". When CHS still posted with new releases, they were very confrontational and dismissive of those that accursed them ripping off GW. They had a "what'cha going to about it?" attitude. Talking with people in the industry, they were all surprised it took that long for GW to start messing with CHS.
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Post by: -Loki-
 jonolikespie wrote:You know if GW had tried this years ago it might have had the intended effect but at this point if they did restrict bitz sales of their own models wont it just help 3rd party manufacturers?
If I can no longer by that 1 meltagun I need I'm not going to buy GWs box of 5 finecast(?) ones, I'm going to go to Anvil Industry's or something and get one of theirs.
Absolutely. And with moving bunkers to closets and discouraging gaming at GW stores, as well as no longer hosting official tournaments, there's absolutely no reason anymore to avoid 3rd party companies. Unless their stuff looks terrible, of course.
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Post by: Miguelsan
I was already at the non-GW figures with GW bits for my armies. Now it will be non-GW everything and after checking how much bits cost at the local shops I think I'll be saving a lot of money.
M.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
I fully expect distributors will push as much as they feel they can, and even larger retailers like The Warstore will as well...
However, I am skeptical as to whether or not GW actually will care. I am guessing that they assume all sales that were stopped by this new policy through independent dealers will go to them, or at least a large enough portion to make up any losses.
If a distributor is shut down, that is an extra 5-10% which goes to them as retailers have to purchase their goods from GW so they dont have to give Alliance their discount. If a webstore is shut down, that is an extra 40-45% which goes to them as they dont need to give the retailer a discount.
I can only imagine their calculation on bits. As opposed to a person buying $10 worth of bits for a project...they instead need to buy one or two complete boxes from GW. Figuring in the various discounts which are in play, that loss of one box to the bit dealer (maybe $20 into GW's pocket) they wouldn't have to get too many people to convert over to buying whole boxes as opposed to the hassles of finding things on the grey markets in order to make up those lost sales.
As far as the paranoia goes, could be...I trust no one. However, I know of a couple people who frequent these message boards who send off an email once a month or more often which amounts to not much more than tattling. There is also a retailer who frequents Warseer who has made it his mission to report any violations of trade terms (or percieved violation). Would be nice if I were wrong, but generally that isnt human nature, especially in the environment that exists online.
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Post by: Kiryu Mk 3
they're going to be hard pressed to enforce this one. look at how many sellers there are that sell bits alone. Its really just a pain. I was looking back through one of the old WD issues and that was when they promoted mixing different model kits with their own. Third party bits from some that I've seen are actually better then some of the stuff that GW puts out on their own. Its just stupid for them to do this.
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Post by: cadbren
It certainly seems odd behaviour. Bitz sellers, like 3rd party add on sellers promote the hobby.
They make it easier for people to get the cool looking army they're after. Having satisfied that urge to be creative, such people are likely to buy more related product from GW itself including its hobby supplies.
It's easier to justify more expensive items when you've got bargains and specific bitz under your belt.
This is a similar issue to file sharing and so called "illegal downloading". What seems to happen is that such sharing actually stimulates interest in certain titles, especially if they are part of a series and sales go up. On the other side rental stores lose out. That's for video content of course.
Of course advertising, free or otherwise, seems a foreign concept with GW.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
cadbren wrote:This is a similar issue to file sharing and so called "illegal downloading". What seems to happen is that such sharing actually stimulates interest in certain titles, especially if they are part of a series and sales go up. On the other side rental stores lose out. That's for video content of course.
I get the point you're making, but it's very different to file sharing. That is illegal, whereas selling bitz is decidedly not.
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Post by: jonolikespie
H.B.M.C. wrote:cadbren wrote:This is a similar issue to file sharing and so called "illegal downloading". What seems to happen is that such sharing actually stimulates interest in certain titles, especially if they are part of a series and sales go up. On the other side rental stores lose out. That's for video content of course.
I get the point you're making, but it's very different to file sharing. That is illegal, whereas selling bitz is decidedly not.
Also people are still paying, at no point are people getting their hands on GW products for free.
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Post by: Harriticus
There are certainly childishly stupid GW rules that I've known my FLGS to ignore. He will tell regulars when the latest releases are expected even while they're still in the "secrecy" stage, he doesn't pretend specialist games don't exist, and I imagine he'll ignore this.
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Post by: notprop
I imagine most will.
If they eo attempt to enforce any of these things GW will concentrate on on the distributors and leave the distributors to manage the retailers.
I don't imagine Alloance et al will be too keen on loosing GW supply for the sake of bits sellers. If the distributors don't comply it's not like gw do not already have distribution hubs set up. There is a director at gw somewhere rubbing his hands at what he perceives as a win-win situation.
Their imediate lose of local retailers will be replaced by the new raft of GW stores that are starting to pop up I would imagine.
Could this be GWs Death Star coming over the Yavin horizon?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I think it's probably the other way around - GW wouldn't want to lose Alliance. The US, you folks in the UK might recall, is a pretty darn big place. It's like Australia, only people live across the entirety of it ('cept a really hot bit in the south west). The methods of distribution that GW uses in the UK simply don't function in the US (as much as GW wishes they would), and so the LGS method is the only way to get saturation as if they set up enough GW stores to do it they'd go out of business from the overhead costs.
Distribution partners are key in such a broad environment, so I can't imagine GW would be willing to throw away Alliance as a distributor over a few stores selling bits.
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Post by: jonolikespie
H.B.M.C. wrote:I think it's probably the other way around - GW wouldn't want to lose Alliance. The US, you folks in the UK might recall, is a pretty darn big place. It's like Australia, only people live across the entirety of it ('cept a really hot bit in the south west). The methods of distribution that GW uses in the UK simply don't function in the US (as much as GW wishes they would), and so the LGS method is the only way to get saturation as if they set up enough GW stores to do it they'd go out of business from the overhead costs.
Distribution partners are key in such a broad environment, so I can't imagine GW would be willing to throw away Alliance as a distributor over a few stores selling bits.
That all makes perfect sense but GW doesn't see it. In the last financial report (at least I think it was that) Kirby stated he wants 7 or 8 HUNDRED stores to open up in the US in the next few years. Whether or not it works they are trying to impose the UK model on the US, which means crapping all over the FLGSs and replacing them with GW ones.
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Post by: doktor_g
If Alliance is as big as you guys make it out to be, surely THEY (not GW) have the larger say in the setting of the terms. It's like the Wal-Mart model. "If you want us to distribute your little toys, we do business with whom we please."
Also has a boycott ever been tried?
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Post by: insaniak
It's been suggested pretty much every time GW have done... Well, anything, ever.
Let us know how it goes.
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Post by: doktor_g
Lol. I've not bought anything for months and my paint que is shrinking nicely thank you very much.
DrG
But the Tau Codex may change all that.... Damn you evil seductress!!!
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
The only thing I bought this year is a Codex... and even I feel kinda stupid for doing that.
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Post by: cadbren
jonolikespie wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:cadbren wrote:This is a similar issue to file sharing and so called "illegal downloading". What seems to happen is that such sharing actually stimulates interest in certain titles, especially if they are part of a series and sales go up. On the other side rental stores lose out. That's for video content of course.
I get the point you're making, but it's very different to file sharing. That is illegal, whereas selling bitz is decidedly not.
Also people are still paying, at no point are people getting their hands on GW products for free.
Which makes GWs stance on this even harder to understand. If unauthorised copying with no revenue return can stimulate growth, then how much better is it that someone is stimulating growth AND returning revenue to you.
It seems like pettiness to me. GW simply doesn't want someone making money using their product, even if that person is improving their brand.
I just don't get this corporate model they're going with. GW is essentially a toy company that makes unsophisticated toys and also sells materials to assemble and decorate them with. This is not a high end luxury product; it is kitset toys. The target audience don't give a rat's about branding, it's the product itself they're interested in and the environment in which it takes place.
The idea that bits on their own would confuse the end user or harm the brand is ridiculous. The bits market are those people already well acquainted with the product. If people new to the market saw these bits they'd ignore them not knowing what they were. Hardly a recipe for brand degradation; this micromanaging however is.
Just plain weird. Automatically Appended Next Post: As for buying stuff, the last lot of stuff I bought was from Warstore, though no bits. Great service too.
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Post by: jonolikespie
I've spent $996 on hobby stuff since the start of the year (I decided to keep track of it this year and immediately regretted it).
Of that about $140 was GW stuff.
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Post by: Vulcan
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Aerethan wrote:GW can demand all they want, but their ability to enforce any of these terms is laughable.
Can't they simply enforce it by not selling to a retailer who they suspect of on selling to bits sellers? I thought the right to refuse service was a pretty world wide one with only a few exceptions.
Sure, they can, but that doesn't make it a good idea. What's to stop the bitz dealer from moving on to another retailer? At some point, GW would have to stop refusing to sell or go bankrupt from destroying their distribution network.
EDIT: Even if they do manange to get their ban to work, it won't net them the benefit they expect. I've used GS to make molds of small individual pieces I needed a lot of for personal use. It's not hard at all. I'm certainly NOT going to be buying whole kits for that ONE part I need more of...
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
H.B.M.C. wrote:I think it's probably the other way around - GW wouldn't want to lose Alliance. The US, you folks in the UK might recall, is a pretty darn big place. It's like Australia, only people live across the entirety of it ('cept a really hot bit in the south west). The methods of distribution that GW uses in the UK simply don't function in the US (as much as GW wishes they would), and so the LGS method is the only way to get saturation as if they set up enough GW stores to do it they'd go out of business from the overhead costs.
Distribution partners are key in such a broad environment, so I can't imagine GW would be willing to throw away Alliance as a distributor over a few stores selling bits.
I agree with your reasoning...I just haven't seen any evidence that makes me think GW is capable of such thoughts.
Like I said, it is just as likely that they assume any store who would have been supplied by a distributor would instead become supplied directly by GW at a larger percentage of the profit. It is the same reasoning that they applied when the initial embargo was put in place with online carts...and the next embargo put in place against Australia...and now these new terms.
They assume that people NEED to buy their product, and will do so from them if they cut off other routes by which people can obtain them. Whether it is a customer who doesnt have easy access to a local game store who they think will be forced into buying from their online store or a game store who they can now leverage the trade terms on (minimum stock levels, in store display rules)...I truely believe that they think the loss of any trade partner will end up benefitting them in the end.
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Post by: tgf
Alliance sells GW at 60% MSRP to our store. If you buy direct from GW you get it at 45% MSRP. Alliance is making 15% so I don't think they are complaining. The nice thing about buying through alliance is it allows us to continue doing bits and selling online. The downside, margins are smaller.
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Post by: TBD
It could be a very risky mistake by them considering the US is the place where other mini games seem to be on the rise much more than elsewhere in the world. If anything they could be playing right into the hands of Privateer Press etc.
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Post by: notprop
H.B.M.C. wrote:I think it's probably the other way around - GW wouldn't want to lose Alliance. The US, you folks in the UK might recall, is a pretty darn big place. It's like Australia, only people live across the entirety of it ('cept a really hot bit in the south west). The methods of distribution that GW uses in the UK simply don't function in the US (as much as GW wishes they would), and so the LGS method is the only way to get saturation as if they set up enough GW stores to do it they'd go out of business from the overhead costs.
Distribution partners are key in such a broad environment, so I can't imagine GW would be willing to throw away Alliance as a distributor over a few stores selling bits.
While I appreciate the condesention, you have missed the point.
In the long term GW are seeking to expand massively in the US, their inhouse distribution infrastructure will need to be in place before this can happen, so where they supply to Flgs or GW shouldnt make a great deal of differance. Whether this works remains to be seen.
If Alliance ceased to be supplied would more FLGs directly order from the great satan to maintain supply, you would think so if they have demand there already.
Realistically I don't think that it would happen; Alliance want the product to sell, GW want the market presence and the money. They will pinch their noses and take a bite of whatever is served up. GW have options, Distributors don't.
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Post by: skyth
You know, technically, selling kits to TO's that are going to use them as prizes is against the TOS.
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Post by: Theophony
 TBD wrote:It could be a very risky mistake by them considering the US is the place where other mini games seem to be on the rise much more than elsewhere in the world. If anything they could be playing right into the hands of Privateer Press etc.
As a long time GW fan who has been turned away over the last couple years, I can safely tell you it's not to privateer press that I'll run. PP has been around for a while and even though they have stolen a lot of gamers from GW, from what I see most play both, but are doing less GW buying.
For me it's the look and story of the models. I don't like the look of the PP figures, just not my style. They are really nice and a solid theme, just not what I am looking for, your opinions may vary.
This anti bits sales really just make me lean more towards games that supply all the bits I'll need. Mark at dreamforge games packs his spruces so tight that you'll never run out of options. And at half the price of GW, that's where I am going. I used to buy bits from GW for years when they had the mail order trolls. They would make you deals to sell off parts like crazy. This was good for GW, I can see casting costs go up, but if they were smart they could easily recut molds to produce a sprue of mark IV helmets and sell them cheaper than bit sites. Melts guns, put 100 on a sprue, sell them a $1.00 each online and be done.
Why is there competition an bad feelings from fans? Why do the bits sellers and other third party guys exist?
Because GW is lazy, and think that they are the only option in town. Get over yourselves GW, lets get back to basics. No more super sized models to increase margin. Just get all the models for your rules out when you put out rules. Make the game affordable. And get back to customer service.
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