sooo your saying that i cant email and order in or call it in? pay with CC over the "phone" this will become the grey area id say. just like MM have on their website "we stock it but cant advertise any of it email for info" there will become a work around.

Also i know i asked this before but contract painting services, and the like.... for them it will be a get customer to order items and ship locally, but at the same time previous comment of for an international person that just plain becomes a pain in the cheeks due to needing workarounds of "no internet sales"

Well if I am reading this right and I can no longer buy from The Warstore for all my bitz then I am pretty much going to have to stop buying their product all together. With no Canadian retailers left (that I know of) and no stores in the province all I am left with is the GW online store with its stupid inflated prices. Hope this new practice works out well for them, I'm off to buy some more Dreamforge troopers...

You are reading it right, your options as a Canadian are find a local store or buy from GW online. You have until June to buy your last things from online people.

 Commander Cain wrote:
Well if I am reading this right and I can no longer buy from The Warstore for all my bitz then I am pretty much going to have to stop buying their product all together. With no Canadian retailers left (that I know of) and no stores in the province all I am left with is the GW online store with its stupid inflated prices. Hope this new practice works out well for them, I'm off to buy some more Dreamforge troopers...

That’s the ticket Brother!

Dreamforge has one hellavea' opening into the plastic market... if Mark had the resources he'd keep us all in fantastic plastic models for years to come.

people talk alot about boycotts but still buy the stuff… just stop buying it. Move your funds to another company. When the shareholders see that stock plummet it’ll shake up the company.
I for one have just moved past the stocky, blocky, over price space marine driven machine.

I wonder at the LGS i buy stuff in Japan, i hope they sent these rules out only in English so i am save.

You're safe anyway. This is US only at this point.

 insaniak wrote:
You're safe anyway. This is US only at this point.

For now. As stated before. The Revenue streaming process will continue. Do not think you are safe in Japan or any other country.

Because sooner or later you are going to get screwed and it will come a time to decide for you to leave GW products or not. The corporation does not care about their current customer base. They got enough Sheeple to keep them afloat for the near future.

In all honesty many companies try to or do in fact outright prohibit trade partners from changing the packaging on their product. For instance you don't see your local grocery store opening bags of Oreo's, throwing 1 or 2 them in a non-descript plastic baggy then selling them to you for 50 cents a bag do you? Having read the trade agreement thanks to miniwargaming.com the whole section regarding bitz sales makes total sense from a company standpoint. GW's posistioning itself as a seller of a PREMIUM product at a PREMIUM price and while some folks will disagree aesthetically GW's mini's are factually the highest quality plastic and resin mini's around when you disregard aesthetic preferences (that you think the pumbagor looks dumb is immaterial in otherwords)

For example look at this bitz search on ebay canada

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311.R3&_nkw=warhammer+bitz&_sacat=0&_from=R40

where in ANY of those pictures is GW's corporate logo, packaging or any of the other brand recognition they've spent millions on being displayed? NOWHERE, and it's not like it's any different on bit seller websites like the war store
http://www.thewarstore.com/product32719.html

You don't have to agree with it, frankly you can be annoyed by it as a convertor but as a business decision this is a solid, responsible move for them that will in the long run WILL increase sales as despite the fact that many people won't buy the full kit in order to get certain bits there will be plenty of people that do. More importantly though it prevents GW's kits from being presented in what is quite literally a cheap and unappealing fashion. Again, I will lament not being able to buy the bits I want that I can't trade/bum/beg for but it's not a "OMG GW IS EVIL AND TRYING TO DESTROY THEMSELVES" decision, it is a smart, business orientated one that will likely be beneficial in the long run.

Orktavius wrote:
where in ANY of those pictures is GW's corporate logo, packaging or any of the other brand recognition they've spent millions on being displayed? NOWHERE, and it's not like it's any different on bit seller websites like the war store
http://www.thewarstore.com/product32719.html

That's because GW treats it as copyright infringement ...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orktavius wrote:
... it is a smart, business orientated one that will likely be beneficial in the long run.

Yep, fewer stores is a better result for everyone...

Orktavius wrote:
In all honesty many companies try to or do in fact outright prohibit trade partners from changing the packaging on their product. For instance you don't see your local grocery store opening bags of Oreo's, throwing 1 or 2 them in a non-descript plastic baggy then selling them to you for 50 cents a bag do you? Having read the trade agreement thanks to miniwargaming.com the whole section regarding bitz sales makes total sense from a company standpoint. GW's posistioning itself as a seller of a PREMIUM product at a PREMIUM price and while some folks will disagree aesthetically GW's mini's are factually the highest quality plastic and resin mini's around when you disregard aesthetic preferences (that you think the pumbagor looks dumb is immaterial in otherwords)

For example look at this bitz search on ebay canada

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311.R3&_nkw=warhammer+bitz&_sacat=0&_from=R40

where in ANY of those pictures is GW's corporate logo, packaging or any of the other brand recognition they've spent millions on being displayed? NOWHERE, and it's not like it's any different on bit seller websites like the war store
http://www.thewarstore.com/product32719.html

You don't have to agree with it, frankly you can be annoyed by it as a convertor but as a business decision this is a solid, responsible move for them that will in the long run WILL increase sales as despite the fact that many people won't buy the full kit in order to get certain bits there will be plenty of people that do. More importantly though it prevents GW's kits from being presented in what is quite literally a cheap and unappealing fashion. Again, I will lament not being able to buy the bits I want that I can't trade/bum/beg for but it's not a "OMG GW IS EVIL AND TRYING TO DESTROY THEMSELVES" decision, it is a smart, business orientated one that will likely be beneficial in the long run.

just no. how is it you can mark yourself as a MODELING and MODEL company that WANTS people to do conversions and make things up for yourself but expect someone to spend $50 to get a thunder hammer or power klaw? its not a case of going gosh darn it, if GW creates a void in bits like its trying to it has 2 options 1) fill the void itself and make considerable amounts in the process or 2) watch recasters etc etc etc (cough look at the CH saga) and see what will happen when its some faceless guy they cant target on ebay....

and lets also be honest here, if your shopping for bitz its because you already ahve the kits with all the GW markings so you KNOW what your looking for as a small addon. little timmy wont be looking at bitz going OMG who made those, bitz really is those that have the major parts and need a weapon or a head or something because you already HAVE the rest...

Do you honestly think that if someone wants to kit out a Razorback with a TL assault cannon, that they are going to shell out $80 for a(nother?) Land Raider kit?

Nope, won't happen. They'll either find another way to represent that option, or go to a secondary source.

I'm still waiting on the MM option for Razorbacks to come out, oh GW doesn't have one? Prithee where may I findeth one? Make one from extra bits? But, good sir I have not the bits for that. A third-party supplier? But, they have not the same appearance as the official parts, what deviltry is this?

So If I want the MM from a Devastator kit for that project, where do I go to find it?

xraytango wrote:
Do you honestly think that if someone wants to kit out a Razorback with a TL assault cannon, that they are going to shell out $80 for a(nother?) Land Raider kit?

Nope, won't happen. They'll either find another way to represent that option, or go to a secondary source.

I'm still waiting on the MM option for Razorbacks to come out, oh GW doesn't have one? Prithee where may I findeth one? Make one from extra bits? But, good sir I have not the bits for that. A third-party supplier? But, they have not the same appearance as the official parts, what deviltry is this?

So If I want the MM from a Devastator kit for that project, where do I go to find it?

with this logic good sir you but TWO devestator kits to get your multimeltas

really, you can tell from internet photo's if they are GW bits and no knock offs? having GW product opened up and sold in clear plastic baggies by retailers devalues the brand and the perception of quality. Packaging matters people, it's why companies spend millions on how to display their products.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1710026a

If you want thunder hammers you can buy the bitz pack from GW and it will come to you in proper packaging with GW logo's/branding and all that jazz on it. Currently Privateer press parts out their entire line exactly like GW used to but I'm more than willing to bet they will soon realize exactly what GW did and that it is expensive as hell to send someone running around the warehouse looking for 30 different bits for a bits order and will discontinue that practice like GW did and stick only to popular bits like weapons and icons and the like.

god ok lets not specific to to a thunder hammer... lets pick a certain head with a certain expression or whatever....

Orktavius wrote:
In all honesty many companies try to or do in fact outright prohibit trade partners from changing the packaging on their product. For instance you don't see your local grocery store opening bags of Oreo's, throwing 1 or 2 them in a non-descript plastic baggy then selling them to you for 50 cents a bag do you? Having read the trade agreement thanks to miniwargaming.com the whole section regarding bitz sales makes total sense from a company standpoint. GW's posistioning itself as a seller of a PREMIUM product at a PREMIUM price and while some folks will disagree aesthetically GW's mini's are factually the highest quality plastic and resin mini's around when you disregard aesthetic preferences (that you think the pumbagor looks dumb is immaterial in otherwords)

For example look at this bitz search on ebay canada

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311.R3&_nkw=warhammer+bitz&_sacat=0&_from=R40

where in ANY of those pictures is GW's corporate logo, packaging or any of the other brand recognition they've spent millions on being displayed? NOWHERE, and it's not like it's any different on bit seller websites like the war store
http://www.thewarstore.com/product32719.html

You don't have to agree with it, frankly you can be annoyed by it as a convertor but as a business decision this is a solid, responsible move for them that will in the long run WILL increase sales as despite the fact that many people won't buy the full kit in order to get certain bits there will be plenty of people that do. More importantly though it prevents GW's kits from being presented in what is quite literally a cheap and unappealing fashion. Again, I will lament not being able to buy the bits I want that I can't trade/bum/beg for but it's not a "OMG GW IS EVIL AND TRYING TO DESTROY THEMSELVES" decision, it is a smart, business orientated one that will likely be beneficial in the long run.

No I don't have to agree, I respectfully disagree.

1. GW advertise their models as being customisable, yet they stopped selling components years ago and are now stopping others for selling them.

2. GW have "cracked down" on people using their logo, if it devalues their product that people are selling them without their logo, they have only themselves to blame.

3. If you are buying a Space Marine multimelta, chances are it's because you bought a Space Marine Devastator squad. The idea that the bit devalues the product when the product has already been purchased is, IMO, a bit silly.

4. IMO, the changes in the trade agreement will decrease long term customers because they are pissing off customers and pissed off customers are less likely to be return customers and more likely to dirty your name on forums like this (GW's business practices have done wonders for other companies, I probably never would have known about a lot of other miniature manufacturers if it weren't for the rampant hate their business practices have instilled in much of their consumer base).

5. It's not far fetched to assume GW are shooting for short term gains over long term gains and/or are exaggerating their long term potential with these business practices. The world is full of failed companies. Yes, we are mostly armchair commenters, but that doesn't mean GW are right.

6. IMO, the best business practice is always going to be to make your customers happy as possible and encourage return business. It is fortuitous for GW that their games are such that once you invest in an army, you tend to want to see it through, so that is a good source of getting customers to return. But, IMO, it's only going to go so far when you massively piss off large portion of your customer base. Look at the LFGS's, I don't know about you, but compared to when I started the GW shelf is much smaller in my handful of LFGS's than it ever used to be and it's far easier to run in to someone who will push you away from GW products and toward other products. IMO, GW aren't at in a position where they can self sustain and I think they are going to pay for pissing off both customers AND retailers of their products. ie. Not good business practice.

Orktavius wrote:
really, you can tell from internet photo's if they are GW bits and no knock offs?

No, but I usually can once they're in hand. Which is soon enough, generally.

having GW product opened up and sold in clear plastic baggies by retailers devalues the brand and the perception of quality.

Sorry, but that's nonsense. I don't think something is better quality because it's in a box with a logo on it. I think it's quality because it's good.

You know what devalues the brand and hurts the perception of quality? Switching to a cheaper material that isn't actually suited to your chosen casting method, jacking up prices for models made from that cheaper material, not initiating decent quality control, and then sticking your fingers in your ears when people start to complain and screaming 'No! They're the best quality miniatures in the world! Look at the details!!!!1!!!!ONE!'

Packaging matters where people are easily swayed between brands. For customers of a specific game, not so much.

 insaniak wrote:
You're safe anyway. This is US only at this point.

Like Australia - a lot of Japanese customers and retailers actually source products from the US. I know one for certain who purchases from a distributor based in California and in doing so they are able to save a substantial amount over the existing GW distributor for the Japanese market. I wouldn't be surprised to here a lot of other smaller markets do similar actions...otherwise it wouldn't have made too much sense for GW to bother putting it in the contracts.

__________________________


For any Canadian businesses who might be interested in pursuing the issue, it looks as though there might be grounds to challenge the contract under the Competition Act, in particular Section 77's Market Restriction clause.

“market restriction” means any practice whereby a supplier of a product, as a condition of supplying the product to a customer, requires that customer to supply any product only in a defined market, or exacts a penalty of any kind from the customer if he supplies any product outside a defined market;

Prior case history has defined the internet as a distinct market, as well as the obvious cross border restriction.

Market restriction

(3) Where, on application by the Commissioner or a person granted leave under section 103.1, the Tribunal finds that market restriction, because it is engaged in by a major supplier of a product or because it is widespread in relation to a product, is likely to substantially lessen competition in relation to the product, the Tribunal may make an order directed to all or any of the suppliers against whom an order is sought prohibiting them from continuing to engage in market restriction and containing any other requirement that, in its opinion, is necessary to restore or stimulate competition in relation to the product.

The nature of the trade agreement quite clearly is to eliminate competition both on the internet as well as in overseas markets like Australia. The Competition Act fairly clearly prohibits these actions by dominant suppliers of a given product class (which GW would be as the market dominance level that they set out was 35%). As I understand it, there are minimal costs related to filing a complaint - and the commission handles it as a neutral party, so there shouldn't be any litigation costs either.

Bad move GW, not that you care at all...

But i care, and you have lost another 300 bucks per year...

I hope you have enought new clients coming in to make it for the next 10 years (and hell, i would have increased that ammount in 10 years).

 insaniak wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
really, you can tell from internet photo's if they are GW bits and no knock offs?

No, but I usually can once they're in hand. Which is soon enough, generally.

having GW product opened up and sold in clear plastic baggies by retailers devalues the brand and the perception of quality.

Sorry, but that's nonsense. I don't think something is better quality because it's in a box with a logo on it. I think it's quality because it's good.

You know what devalues the brand and hurts the perception of quality? Switching to a cheaper material that isn't actually suited to your chosen casting method, not initiating decent quality control, and then sticking your fingers in your ears when people start to complain and screaming 'No! They're the best quality miniatures in the world! Look at the details!!!!1!!!!ONE!'

Packaging matters where people are easily swayed between brands. For customers of a specific game, not so much.

And a bit more on the finecast thing, I read a report by mark wells that says the cost increase is actually from the "extremely high level of quality control"(his words).

 Ravenous D wrote:
And a bit more on the finecast thing, I read a report by mark wells that says the cost increase is actually from the "extremely high level of quality control"(his words).

hey dont knock finecast, my brother corbulo has a sweet SWORD sadly its toothless.......

but i digress....

Orktavius wrote:
really, you can tell from internet photo's if they are GW bits and no knock offs? having GW product opened up and sold in clear plastic baggies by retailers devalues the brand and the perception of quality. Packaging matters people, it's why companies spend millions on how to display their products.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1710026a

If you want thunder hammers you can buy the bitz pack from GW and it will come to you in proper packaging with GW logo's/branding and all that jazz on it. Currently Privateer press parts out their entire line exactly like GW used to but I'm more than willing to bet they will soon realize exactly what GW did and that it is expensive as hell to send someone running around the warehouse looking for 30 different bits for a bits order and will discontinue that practice like GW did and stick only to popular bits like weapons and icons and the like.

Why would they? Like any product, if it is expensive as hell to produce...you price that expensive as hell aspect into the retail cost. There is really little reason to ever stop offering metal bits for sale, as they can be produced on demand in short order and the costs are easy to calculate and add into the final price. If customers want a bit, they evaluate that desire versus the price. If the price is too high - then they don't buy it.

Reaper has their entire back catalog of bits from well over 3000 different items available to order one part at a time if you want - and they have no intention of stopping that service.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

5. It's not far fetched to assume GW are shooting for short term gains over long term gains and/or are exaggerating their long term potential with these business practices. The world is full of failed companies. Yes, we are mostly armchair commenters, but that doesn't mean GW are right.

This has been something I suspect GW has been doing for some time now; they have shareholders to which they are beholden to and quite frankly, probably gives two fewer gaks about what the product is so long as their investment pans out.

If GW were to tumble dramatically in public trading and lose significant revenue despite the new spat of releases, I would venture to guess shares would change hands and in the extreme situation, GW fold and creditors get what they can from the company as the IP is sold off to other companies (most likely Hasbro or Disney).

Not sure it was here but someone mentioned about a case selling Books, an immigrant from Thailand.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/garyshapiro/2013/03/20/supreme-court-gives-american-consumers-victory-over-copyright-owners-in-kirtsaeng-vs-john-wiley-sons/

This is an important case in the US

 WarOne wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

5. It's not far fetched to assume GW are shooting for short term gains over long term gains and/or are exaggerating their long term potential with these business practices. The world is full of failed companies. Yes, we are mostly armchair commenters, but that doesn't mean GW are right.

This has been something I suspect GW has been doing for some time now; they have shareholders to which they are beholden to and quite frankly, probably gives two fewer gaks about what the product is so long as their investment pans out.

If GW were to tumble dramatically in public trading and lose significant revenue despite the new spat of releases, I would venture to guess shares would change hands and in the extreme situation, GW fold and creditors get what they can from the company as the IP is sold off to other companies (most likely Hasbro or Disney).

Quite likely it is also one of the reasons you have seen a flurry of licenses issued for games in the past month or three. Get some numbers in to prop up their FY numbers in light of disappointing Hobbit sales figures. Add those into a few dozen retailers making big orders in order to squirrel away products before the embargo goes into effect and you will probably see flat numbers year over year (or a slight increase...) which of course will be heralded as further evidence of the health of GW.

If that's their idea of quality control then someone needs to be fired because their sleeping on the job.

Yes, it's been mentioned. It's not really relevant.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
Not sure it was here but someone mentioned about a case selling Books, an immigrant from Thailand.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/garyshapiro/2013/03/20/supreme-court-gives-american-consumers-victory-over-copyright-owners-in-kirtsaeng-vs-john-wiley-sons/

This is an important case in the US

I think that is the 3rd or 4th time that case was referenced...

The issues relating to that case are different from this case. In particular, the immigrant was purchasing the product from outside the US and importing it into the US in order to sell here. The publishers tried to stop him from selling the products which he purchased legally (and were published legally) in Thailand. The courts ruled that once he purchased goods as a consumer, he could sell them in the US without a problem.

The issues we are seeing here are distributor-retailer relationships which are governed under different aspects of the law. A good comparison would be if someone were to go ahead and purchase a bunch of GW products in the UK from Wayland, file for VAT reimbursement, carry them back to the US (or ship them back) and then use those goods to resell here. The cost savings between the Wayland discount and VAT reimbursement would actually give you around a 40% discount of UK prices (which is far below US retail). GW could not stop you from doing that.

However, in the US - most the terms of the contract are legal on the face of them. I think retailers based in Wisconsin might have some recourse under the Wisconsin Fair Dealership Law, but I plan on reading the case law relating to that tomorrow while at the hospital to find out for certain.

I am pretty sure the Canadians have an out if anyone wanted to push the issue under their Competition Act that I cited above.

Orktavius wrote:
really, you can tell from internet photo's if they are GW bits and no knock offs? having GW product opened up and sold in clear plastic baggies by retailers devalues the brand and the perception of quality. Packaging matters people, it's why companies spend millions on how to display their products.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1710026a

If you want thunder hammers you can buy the bitz pack from GW and it will come to you in proper packaging with GW logo's/branding and all that jazz on it. Currently Privateer press parts out their entire line exactly like GW used to but I'm more than willing to bet they will soon realize exactly what GW did and that it is expensive as hell to send someone running around the warehouse looking for 30 different bits for a bits order and will discontinue that practice like GW did and stick only to popular bits like weapons and icons and the like.

If GW cared so much about its logo, packaging and branding why would they prohibit retailers from using them in advertisements and webstores?

Besides which, everyone playing 40K who needs 40K bits knows what they're looking for and doesn't need them to come in labeled packaging to remind them what it was they bought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

The issues we are seeing here are distributor-retailer relationships which are governed under different aspects of the law. A good comparison would be if someone were to go ahead and purchase a bunch of GW products in the UK from Wayland, file for VAT reimbursement, carry them back to the US (or ship them back) and then use those goods to resell here. The cost savings between the Wayland discount and VAT reimbursement would actually give you around a 40% discount of UK prices (which is far below US retail). GW could not stop you from doing that.

Unfortunately the British government has done a good job of stopping you from doing that. There's virtually no service at the airports and an overall lack of information on how to get a VAT refund on leaving the country. Just having receipts isn't enough: you need the store you bought from to fill in a bunch of information and it all needs to be filed just so in order to get back what you shouldn't have paid in the first place.

Travelers leaving the EU through Amsterdam are luckier as they can go through a third party who makes it his business to get that tax back - at a cost of course. Again, there are rules: you need to have spent more than a certain amount at a retailer (I think it's £100), you're supposed to have the product in your carry-on baggage for inspection, and most importantly from my point of view, you need to show an invoice which shows clearly both the VAT paid in-country AND shows your billing address as being overseas. Wayland doesn't allow you to set up a billing address that's different to your shipping address, and so I'm not sure how the hell to get round this problem (though I sure as hell plan on trying next month).

Orktavius wrote:
really, you can tell from internet photo's if they are GW bits and no knock offs? having GW product opened up and sold in clear plastic baggies by retailers devalues the brand and the perception of quality. Packaging matters people, it's why companies spend millions on how to display their products.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1710026a

If you want thunder hammers you can buy the bitz pack from GW and it will come to you in proper packaging with GW logo's/branding and all that jazz on it. Currently Privateer press parts out their entire line exactly like GW used to but I'm more than willing to bet they will soon realize exactly what GW did and that it is expensive as hell to send someone running around the warehouse looking for 30 different bits for a bits order and will discontinue that practice like GW did and stick only to popular bits like weapons and icons and the like.

You realize, of course, that if you order those thunderhammers, they come in a plain clam pack with a plain white cardboard insert with the 40k, Warhammer, GW and Citadel logos on it.

Because quality packaging matters, and you totally knew that before launching your tirade.

Serisouly, those bits come in the GW equivalent of a FineBaggie.

angryboy2k wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

The issues we are seeing here are distributor-retailer relationships which are governed under different aspects of the law. A good comparison would be if someone were to go ahead and purchase a bunch of GW products in the UK from Wayland, file for VAT reimbursement, carry them back to the US (or ship them back) and then use those goods to resell here. The cost savings between the Wayland discount and VAT reimbursement would actually give you around a 40% discount of UK prices (which is far below US retail). GW could not stop you from doing that.

Unfortunately the British government has done a good job of stopping you from doing that. There's virtually no service at the airports and an overall lack of information on how to get a VAT refund on leaving the country. Just having receipts isn't enough: you need the store you bought from to fill in a bunch of information and it all needs to be filed just so in order to get back what you shouldn't have paid in the first place.

Travelers leaving the EU through Amsterdam are luckier as they can go through a third party who makes it his business to get that tax back - at a cost of course. Again, there are rules: you need to have spent more than a certain amount at a retailer (I think it's £100), you're supposed to have the product in your carry-on baggage for inspection, and most importantly from my point of view, you need to show an invoice which shows clearly both the VAT paid in-country AND shows your billing address as being overseas. Wayland doesn't allow you to set up a billing address that's different to your shipping address, and so I'm not sure how the hell to get round this problem (though I sure as hell plan on trying next month).

It isn't that bad, I actually file VAT refund paperwork every time I come back from Europe (every year or two - my wife has family in Scotland and I have some friends who live down near London). The first time through involves a bit of hassle, but as long as the items are not consumables - you can get your 20% back without much difficulty.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/sectors/consumers/overseas-visitors.htm
____________________________

For any other legal eagles who are up to digging through the statutes, it would appear that the phrasing of the GW contract creates a defacto franchise relationship under Missouri, Nebraska, New Jersey, and Wisconsin laws and potentially a franchise relationship under California, Connecticut, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Virginia, and Washington provided the retailer purchases in store displays and signage and utilizes GW recommended plannograms. Franchises have much greater protections, and the given statutes may allow for various clauses to be invalidated - in particular GW reserving the right to online sales to themselves as that puts them in direct competition with the franchisee. Of course, I still haven't had a chance to fully dig into things - but those are the needles I have found so far.

 -Loki- wrote:
Because quality packaging matters, and you totally knew that before launching your tirade.

Serisouly, those bits come in the GW equivalent of a FineBaggie.

And there's the thing... Packing might matter to mum or dad buying minis in store without any idea what they are buying (in which case brand recognition still isn't going to count for a whole hell of a lot)... But anyone buying bits isn't going to be swayed by whether or not the multimelta they're looking at on ebay has a GW logo displayed or not. If you know enough to go looking for multimeltas, you know that GW makes them. Coming in GW packaging or not is not going to affect your perception of the quality of that multimelta.

 -Loki- wrote:
You realize, of course, that if you order those thunderhammers, they come in a plain clam pack with a plain white cardboard insert with the 40k, Warhammer, GW and Citadel logos on it.

And apparently the LotR corporation logo - all of which add up to trademark dilution on their own part which is a firm example of how little they really care about packaging and their image.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

It isn't that bad, I actually file VAT refund paperwork every time I come back from Europe (every year or two - my wife has family in Scotland and I have some friends who live down near London). The first time through involves a bit of hassle, but as long as the items are not consumables - you can get your 20% back without much difficulty.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/sectors/consumers/overseas-visitors.htm
____________________________

I've done it once (quite a few years ago) and found it easy, but now that I always leave from Manchester Airport it's become nearly impossible. There's no customs officers at Manchester Airport - just a telephone and an instruction to post your claim and receipts back - which IIRC you needed to have had stamped at the point of purchase. I felt like the setup was done deliberately to make it hard for customers to claim money back unless the retailer you bought from was already participating in the tax-free shopping scheme.

Anyway, I'm gonna give it a try in a few weeks' time so I'll see how I get on.

Orktavius wrote:
really, you can tell from internet photo's if they are GW bits and no knock offs? having GW product opened up and sold in clear plastic baggies by retailers devalues the brand and the perception of quality. Packaging matters people, it's why companies spend millions on how to display their products.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1710026a

If you want thunder hammers you can buy the bitz pack from GW and it will come to you in proper packaging with GW logo's/branding and all that jazz on it. Currently Privateer press parts out their entire line exactly like GW used to but I'm more than willing to bet they will soon realize exactly what GW did and that it is expensive as hell to send someone running around the warehouse looking for 30 different bits for a bits order and will discontinue that practice like GW did and stick only to popular bits like weapons and icons and the like.

What, are you Games Workshop's poster child? I fail to see how their decisions in the last three years and mainly those in the last year can sustain the company more than a few years. If current trends continue, prices will rise again, more people will FINALLY stop buying GW products and put their money where their mouth is, and GW will begin to fail.

What part of their new trade agreement improves on anything? Concerns over user privacy? I call BS on that garbage. Their site is no more secure than Dicebucket or Hoard o' Bits, and actually both are probably more secure because they use paypal, which is incredibly secure.

As for packaging... come on. Seriously? Do you seriously think that people who buy GW products do not know what a GW product looks like? I bought a dozen Tesla Carbine for my converted Immortals. I suppose because they didn't come slathered in the Games Workshop logo I can't really be sure that they actually are Games Workshop products.

It's basically going to start to force players to other retailers from let's say malifax / priveteer press or the less reputable ones from like Russia or China who straight up copy things is how I see this.

Also, if you just introduce people to the game and give them no one to play with as the stores with tables are apparently closing, where are people supposed to play at?

Most kids can afford some mini's, fewer can afford a gaming board and even fewer have a place where many people can stand around to play.

It's especially bad in Japan here as finding a place to play is probably the hardest part. Not everyone has a big enough house and if there's no central place, you really aren't ever gonna find others with the same interest. We've got some kids that want to play but we'll never play at their houses cause it's cramped like heck or their parents just don't want a bunch of strangers cluttering up the place for like 7-8 HOURS at a time. It's not like we go over for tea and discussions that last an hr; 2 games take an entire afternoon. People got places to go and parents want their privacy.

I'm the adult in the house so I can totally do w/e I want and thank goodness my wife lets me but I know 2-3 guys whose wives hate having so many people over especially people with huge boxes of stuff. The cleaning will take forever! (my wife already HAS to clean the house for 3-4 hrs before she lets anyone over eventhough I've told her none of the guys that come to play care at all what the house looks like)

I love the bit in the full release that says that they are protecting the investment made by bricks & mortar company's in the gaming community. Is this the same community that now gets to go to a one man run cupboard, that has no space to allow you to play games or sit and paint? Or the LGS that is deciding not to stock their stuff due to all the stupid restrictions placed on them?

 Wolfstan wrote:
I love the bit in the full release that says that they are protecting the investment made by bricks & mortar company's in the gaming community. Is this the same community that now gets to go to a one man run cupboard, that has no space to allow you to play games or sit and paint? Or the LGS that is deciding not to stock their stuff due to all the stupid restrictions placed on them?

I think you misunderstand the model.

The one man GW store are there to generate new customers and create brand presence.

As customers get intergrated into the hobby they are exposed to more common knowledge of discounts, independent stores with playing space and of clubs. All of these things allow the customer to develop at his own pace and add to the existing community, leaving GW to concentrate on new customers.

If GW do not support the FLGs then they will not support the product. Generally speaking online stores have gutted High/Main Street locations of the majority of specialist shops; I mean have you tried to by a decent book or album recently, I don't mind paying a premium to get it convieniently but its pretty difficult outside of a big city here. The overriding desire for massively discounted product is just as true in wargaming but this would ultimately neuter new player generation as it stands at the moment, or at least one very important strand of it from GWs perspective.

The arguement that GW is trying to prevent independent games stores always makes me laugh as if this was a goal it would be so easy to achieve it would have happens a decade ago.

Ok I see what you are getting at, but aren't a lot of FLGS not happy with GW at the moment due to all their restrictions and therefore are cutting back on their stock. Based on what I've read before on this site.

 notprop wrote:

 Wolfstan wrote:
I love the bit in the full release that says that they are protecting the investment made by bricks & mortar company's in the gaming community. Is this the same community that now gets to go to a one man run cupboard, that has no space to allow you to play games or sit and paint? Or the LGS that is deciding not to stock their stuff due to all the stupid restrictions placed on them?

I think you misunderstand the model.

The one man GW store are there to generate new customers and create brand presence.

As customers get intergrated into the hobby they are exposed to more common knowledge of discounts, independent stores with playing space and of clubs. All of these things allow the customer to develop at his own pace and add to the existing community, leaving GW to concentrate on new customers.

If GW do not support the FLGs then they will not support the product. Generally speaking online stores have gutted High/Main Street locations of the majority of specialist shops; I mean have you tried to by a decent book or album recently, I don't mind paying a premium to get it convieniently but its pretty difficult outside of a big city here. The overriding desire for massively discounted product is just as true in wargaming but this would ultimately neuter new player generation as it stands at the moment, or at least one very important strand of it from GWs perspective.

The arguement that GW is trying to prevent independent games stores always makes me laugh as if this was a goal it would be so easy to achieve it would have happens a decade ago.

Sorry notprop, I disagree. The Internet vs B&M argument has been found false elsewhere. Stores exist to serve customers. If customers want something then generally that service will exist. It is not the fault of Internet stores that many B&M store owners are not successful. Its just a convenient excuse.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
You know, there's a lot of negativity around GW, but I think this might be the first time that I've ever heard them referred to as socialist.

Since when would that be a bad thing...?

It's just the general confusion with American's definition of socialism I think.

If companies take all the liberties the unbridled US system gives them and play hardball for profits, its socialism.

If they get thumbed by EU-regulation and forced to compete fairly and provide customers with choice, it's also socialism.

Begs the question of what is NOT socialism?

The oxymoron of a "socialist company" non-withstanding.

 notprop wrote:

If GW do not support the FLGs then they will not support the product.

And the best way to support the FLGS is to keep them in the dark about new releases, limit their access to key parts of your product range, restrict how they can sell your product, and forbid them from competing with online discounters...

rich1231 wrote:

 notprop wrote:

 Wolfstan wrote:
I love the bit in the full release that says that they are protecting the investment made by bricks & mortar company's in the gaming community. Is this the same community that now gets to go to a one man run cupboard, that has no space to allow you to play games or sit and paint? Or the LGS that is deciding not to stock their stuff due to all the stupid restrictions placed on them?

I think you misunderstand the model.

The one man GW store are there to generate new customers and create brand presence.

As customers get intergrated into the hobby they are exposed to more common knowledge of discounts, independent stores with playing space and of clubs. All of these things allow the customer to develop at his own pace and add to the existing community, leaving GW to concentrate on new customers.

If GW do not support the FLGs then they will not support the product. Generally speaking online stores have gutted High/Main Street locations of the majority of specialist shops; I mean have you tried to by a decent book or album recently, I don't mind paying a premium to get it convieniently but its pretty difficult outside of a big city here. The overriding desire for massively discounted product is just as true in wargaming but this would ultimately neuter new player generation as it stands at the moment, or at least one very important strand of it from GWs perspective.

The arguement that GW is trying to prevent independent games stores always makes me laugh as if this was a goal it would be so easy to achieve it would have happens a decade ago.

Sorry notprop, I disagree. The Internet vs B&M argument has been found false elsewhere. Stores exist to serve customers. If customers want something then generally that service will exist. It is not the fault of Internet stores that many B&M store owners are not successful. Its just a convenient excuse.

I disagree, of course the internet versus B&M have affected massively the B&M stores, how else would you explain the 68billion spent online in 2011, did consumers get this money from no where?, of course not. And yes stores exsist to serve, but so do internet stores. I really dont understand what you are getting at?

Also, isnt your bricks and mortar store severely lacking in GW items and can pick up off the shelves?, was talking to a local chap last night and he said he will not go back there unless there is a marked improvement even though he is very local to you, one of the reasons cited was he could never collect items from you as hardly anything in store?.

MarkyMark wrote:

I disagree, of course the internet versus B&M have affected massively the B&M stores, how else would you explain the 68billion spent online in 2011, did consumers get this money from no where?, of course not. And yes stores exsist to serve, but so do internet stores. I really dont understand what you are getting at?

How many of the bigger online stores serving the gaming community at the moment also have a physical store location?

In the UK?, every online store will have a bricks and mortar store as per the t&c's of GW uk

So where is the problem with online stores?

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
You know, there's a lot of negativity around GW, but I think this might be the first time that I've ever heard them referred to as socialist.

Since when would that be a bad thing...?

It's just the general confusion with American's definition of socialism I think.

If companies take all the liberties the unbridled US system gives them and play hardball for profits, its socialism.

If they get thumbed by EU-regulation and forced to compete fairly and provide customers with choice, it's also socialism.

Begs the question of what is NOT socialism?

The oxymoron of a "socialist company" non-withstanding.

When it is complete and total ANARCHY.

That or a purely capitalistic system with no government oversight nor backing.

Ok, but how many of those stores would have a bricks and mortar shop given the choice?, very few I would say. Plus if you read back up the subject wasnt purely gaming stores/websites

The subject of this thread is gaming stores.

And the simple fact is that around the world, most of the more successful online stores are tied to physical shops. This idea that online only businesses are killing it for everyone else is nonsense... The big competition isn't the online only guy. It's another store.

Whether that store is in another suburb or another country only makes a difference if the supplier is in the habit of artificially inflating prices in certain areas.

MarkyMark wrote:

rich1231 wrote:

 notprop wrote:

 Wolfstan wrote:
I love the bit in the full release that says that they are protecting the investment made by bricks & mortar company's in the gaming community. Is this the same community that now gets to go to a one man run cupboard, that has no space to allow you to play games or sit and paint? Or the LGS that is deciding not to stock their stuff due to all the stupid restrictions placed on them?

I think you misunderstand the model.

The one man GW store are there to generate new customers and create brand presence.

As customers get intergrated into the hobby they are exposed to more common knowledge of discounts, independent stores with playing space and of clubs. All of these things allow the customer to develop at his own pace and add to the existing community, leaving GW to concentrate on new customers.

If GW do not support the FLGs then they will not support the product. Generally speaking online stores have gutted High/Main Street locations of the majority of specialist shops; I mean have you tried to by a decent book or album recently, I don't mind paying a premium to get it convieniently but its pretty difficult outside of a big city here. The overriding desire for massively discounted product is just as true in wargaming but this would ultimately neuter new player generation as it stands at the moment, or at least one very important strand of it from GWs perspective.

The arguement that GW is trying to prevent independent games stores always makes me laugh as if this was a goal it would be so easy to achieve it would have happens a decade ago.

Sorry notprop, I disagree. The Internet vs B&M argument has been found false elsewhere. Stores exist to serve customers. If customers want something then generally that service will exist. It is not the fault of Internet stores that many B&M store owners are not successful. Its just a convenient excuse.

I disagree, of course the internet versus B&M have affected massively the B&M stores, how else would you explain the 68billion spent online in 2011, did consumers get this money from no where?, of course not. And yes stores exsist to serve, but so do internet stores. I really dont understand what you are getting at?

Also, isnt your bricks and mortar store severely lacking in GW items and can pick up off the shelves?, was talking to a local chap last night and he said he will not go back there unless there is a marked improvement even though he is very local to you, one of the reasons cited was he could never collect items from you as hardly anything in store?.

I'd suggest that some customers wanted to buy online in many cases. Good B&M stores can still Flourish. The stores are there because customers want them. No other reason.

Regarding the TTN store I am not sure what you are alluding to. We have more stock in the store than any other store in the UK and purchases are also available from the warehouse via the sales staff. Not really the topic of this thread though.

Just to add, can you imagine who the winner is if all B&M game stores point at only Internet store woes?

MarkyMark wrote:
Ok, but how many of those stores would have a bricks and mortar shop given the choice?, very few I would say. Plus if you read back up the subject wasnt purely gaming stores/websites

I would say only some would have the ability to be a good LFGS while being an online store. For example, the Warstore IS A FRICKIN' BARN. In the middle of nowhere. They have a team of teenagers and young adults (and a few people of latino descent as well) helping do the work, but they do not have the capacity to host anyone since the wargame clients on the East End of Long Island are nearly nonexistent; most of the funky bunch on the East End are farmers, rednecks, and rich people.

Case in point:

rich1231 wrote:
I'd suggest that some customers wanted to buy online in many cases. Good B&M stores can still Flourish. The stores are there because customers want them. No other reason.

Regarding the TTN store I am not sure what you are alluding to. We have more stock in the store than any other store in the UK and purchases are also available from the warehouse via the sales staff. Not really the topic of this thread though.

Just to add, can you imagine who the winner is if all B&M game stores point at only Internet store woes?

I was more concentrating on your comment about unsuccesful business owners,

Also about stock, just had a quick look at the new daemons on your website, it seems the only 2 models from the whole range in stock is one slaanesh and nurgle I think herald, everything else is out f stock. I am pretty sure my friend was talking about 40k items and warhammer FB rather then any other gaming systems. Just comparing your succesful b&m store to your comments made.

We don't tend to keep GW product in store, we make far more margin on other products and like to concentrate on those ranges. That would have been explained to your "Friend" as well. Its doing great thanks btw, turning a profit and paying for extensive building works etc.

O think you guys went wayyyy off track but i do love Warones comparison with the warstore.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
You're safe anyway. This is US only at this point.

Like Australia - a lot of Japanese customers and retailers actually source products from the US. I know one for certain who purchases from a distributor based in California and in doing so they are able to save a substantial amount over the existing GW distributor for the Japanese market. I wouldn't be surprised to here a lot of other smaller markets do similar actions...otherwise it wouldn't have made too much sense for GW to bother putting it in the contracts.

__________________________


For any Canadian businesses who might be interested in pursuing the issue, it looks as though there might be grounds to challenge the contract under the Competition Act, in particular Section 77's Market Restriction clause.

“market restriction” means any practice whereby a supplier of a product, as a condition of supplying the product to a customer, requires that customer to supply any product only in a defined market, or exacts a penalty of any kind from the customer if he supplies any product outside a defined market;

Prior case history has defined the internet as a distinct market, as well as the obvious cross border restriction.

Market restriction

(3) Where, on application by the Commissioner or a person granted leave under section 103.1, the Tribunal finds that market restriction, because it is engaged in by a major supplier of a product or because it is widespread in relation to a product, is likely to substantially lessen competition in relation to the product, the Tribunal may make an order directed to all or any of the suppliers against whom an order is sought prohibiting them from continuing to engage in market restriction and containing any other requirement that, in its opinion, is necessary to restore or stimulate competition in relation to the product.

The nature of the trade agreement quite clearly is to eliminate competition both on the internet as well as in overseas markets like Australia. The Competition Act fairly clearly prohibits these actions by dominant suppliers of a given product class (which GW would be as the market dominance level that they set out was 35%). As I understand it, there are minimal costs related to filing a complaint - and the commission handles it as a neutral party, so there shouldn't be any litigation costs either.

Looking into the Act and complaints process this morning. No cost to file a complaint, which is great. No harm in a bunch of us filing either

http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/frm-eng/GHÉT-7TDNA5

I have no problem with GW making business decisions to improve their profits, but only so long as those decisions are in fact legal.

This has effected the miniwargaming store:
http://breacher18.com/heretics/

 notprop wrote:

 Wolfstan wrote:
I love the bit in the full release that says that they are protecting the investment made by bricks & mortar company's in the gaming community. Is this the same community that now gets to go to a one man run cupboard, that has no space to allow you to play games or sit and paint? Or the LGS that is deciding not to stock their stuff due to all the stupid restrictions placed on them?

I think you misunderstand the model.

The one man GW store are there to generate new customers and create brand presence.

As customers get intergrated into the hobby they are exposed to more common knowledge of discounts, independent stores with playing space and of clubs. All of these things allow the customer to develop at his own pace and add to the existing community, leaving GW to concentrate on new customers.

If GW do not support the FLGs then they will not support the product. Generally speaking online stores have gutted High/Main Street locations of the majority of specialist shops; I mean have you tried to by a decent book or album recently, I don't mind paying a premium to get it convieniently but its pretty difficult outside of a big city here. The overriding desire for massively discounted product is just as true in wargaming but this would ultimately neuter new player generation as it stands at the moment, or at least one very important strand of it from GWs perspective.

The arguement that GW is trying to prevent independent games stores always makes me laugh as if this was a goal it would be so easy to achieve it would have happens a decade ago.

You really misunderstand GWs stance versus the independenant game stores and how they want to operate going forward.

Open upna one man store as a factory for turning out new gamers. Bilk them for for their large initial purchases, rulebooks, paint sets, starter boxes, battallions... Push them off on a local store or club after a few months when their spending slows down, repeat.

They would eliminate the independant stores entirely if they could. They cant in places like the US though where they do not have the capital to roll out their factory stores across the country...not now, especially not 10 years ago.

The whole one man store thing which works in "conjunction" with local stores is a myth. If you talk to store owners, most gamers spend more in their first 3-6 months then they do in the next 3 years. Once GW has used them up and they start to become savvy to other products and prcies...GW wants to get rid of them

breacher18 wrote:
This has effected the miniwargaming store:
http://breacher18.com/heretics/

Bit late to the party here matey....

The most beautiful thing is when you have driven 2 hours and pull up to that barn. You walk inside and its like being in nerd heaven.

 WarOne wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Ok, but how many of those stores would have a bricks and mortar shop given the choice?, very few I would say. Plus if you read back up the subject wasnt purely gaming stores/websites

I would say only some would have the ability to be a good LFGS while being an online store. For example, the Warstore IS A FRICKIN' BARN. In the middle of nowhere. They have a team of teenagers and young adults (and a few people of latino descent as well) helping do the work, but they do not have the capacity to host anyone since the wargame clients on the East End of Long Island are nearly nonexistent; most of the funky bunch on the East End are farmers, rednecks, and rich people.

Case in point:

Or if you're WarOne, it's like a 20 minute drive...

I'll have to ask my FLGS how he goes about getting his product.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 notprop wrote:

 Wolfstan wrote:
I love the bit in the full release that says that they are protecting the investment made by bricks & mortar company's in the gaming community. Is this the same community that now gets to go to a one man run cupboard, that has no space to allow you to play games or sit and paint? Or the LGS that is deciding not to stock their stuff due to all the stupid restrictions placed on them?

I think you misunderstand the model.

The one man GW store are there to generate new customers and create brand presence.

As customers get intergrated into the hobby they are exposed to more common knowledge of discounts, independent stores with playing space and of clubs. All of these things allow the customer to develop at his own pace and add to the existing community, leaving GW to concentrate on new customers.

If GW do not support the FLGs then they will not support the product. Generally speaking online stores have gutted High/Main Street locations of the majority of specialist shops; I mean have you tried to by a decent book or album recently, I don't mind paying a premium to get it convieniently but its pretty difficult outside of a big city here. The overriding desire for massively discounted product is just as true in wargaming but this would ultimately neuter new player generation as it stands at the moment, or at least one very important strand of it from GWs perspective.

The arguement that GW is trying to prevent independent games stores always makes me laugh as if this was a goal it would be so easy to achieve it would have happens a decade ago.

You really misunderstand GWs stance versus the independenant game stores and how they want to operate going forward.

Open upna one man store as a factory for turning out new gamers. Bilk them for for their large initial purchases, rulebooks, paint sets, starter boxes, battallions... Push them off on a local store or club after a few months when their spending slows down, repeat.

They would eliminate the independant stores entirely if they could. They cant in places like the US though where they do not have the capital to roll out their factory stores across the country...not now, especially not 10 years ago.

The whole one man store thing which works in "conjunction" with local stores is a myth. If you talk to store owners, most gamers spend more in their first 3-6 months then they do in the next 3 years. Once GW has used them up and they start to become savvy to other products and prcies...GW wants to get rid of them

I don't agree.

True taking the initial spend is attractive but why turn you back on repeat business after that? It make no sense and is contrary to all commonly held goals of running a company. Repeat business even if smaller than the existing rush drives turnover and GW is all about turnover and not profit as commonly assumed.

Now we at both conjecturing on this but I would suggest the UK would hold up as a example of what it is possible where GW pushes its model as much as possible. Here there is a GW in most large towns and above and yet independent store exist aplenty as do the most of the biggest independent retailers. If GW don't establish a monopoly of the market here under favourable circumstances then why would they suddenly decide North America is the place to give it a spin?

As I said many pages ago this is a storm in a tea cup. If you believe in really free trade then it is an artificial attempt to allow FLGs to compete on a more even playing field; if you believe in having a FLGs running successfully then this may well be a good thing.

I think if my FLGS could only order 500 per month of special order stuff he would be at a loss. Almost everything i want now is special order. I have all the core units i will every need but my special characters are direct order stuff. Times that by 10 and he reaches his limit.

The thing that gets me the most is that i cannot go into my local store and get most of the things for my army because of special ordering and stuff like that. He can't even stock it. I understand if GW is low on inventory , or if they are switching materials and need to coordinate stuff. If i owned a FLGS and my meta was say very Space Marine and Eldar you bet I would want ever model there for impulse sales and such.

Maybe get some 2 part silicone and 2 part resin and start making our own bitz will be the way forward?

 notprop wrote:


I don't agree.

True taking the initial spend is attractive but why turn you back on repeat business after that? It make no sense and is contrary to all commonly held goals of running a company. Repeat business even if smaller than the existing rush drives turnover and GW is all about turnover and not profit as commonly assumed.

Now we at both conjecturing on this but I would suggest the UK would hold up as a example of what it is possible where GW pushes its model as much as possible. Here there is a GW in most large towns and above and yet independent store exist aplenty as do the most of the biggest independent retailers. If GW don't establish a monopoly of the market here under favourable circumstances then why would they suddenly decide North America is the place to give it a spin?

As I said many pages ago this is a storm in a tea cup. If you believe in really free trade then it is an artificial attempt to allow FLGs to compete on a more even playing field; if you believe in having a FLGs running successfully then this may well be a good thing.

Population Density. It can be really thin here in the States. People here like to live very spread out. There might not be enough players in an area to support even two games stores that are 20 miles apart. Stick a GW store right between them, and you have issues.

 Grimtuff wrote:

breacher18 wrote:
This has effected the miniwargaming store:
http://breacher18.com/heretics/

Bit late to the party here matey....

And didn't MiniWargaming state that the GW decision wasn't the biggest contributor to this decision, anyway? Something about how their business in creating hobby videos is doing better, with a greater profit margin, than retail sales and they'd rather focus on things that are bringing in the most money...

GW is making the same mistake that the video game industry has been making for awhile. Instead of providing a higher volume of quality content, they're focusing on restricting their content to as few sellers possible, assuming that resells are somehow hurting their profit margin in a significant way. The companies that are actually bringing in money, in video games, are the ones that learned from the music industry.

The music industry freaked out about piracy sued the pants off everyone, then said "crap, we didn't realize this was going to make us look like the bad guy," (behind closed doors, obviously), and started focusing on making what they're selling affordable, scale-able (with discounts provided to people who are willing to spend more), and easily accessible. And you know what happened? In spite of rampant piracy, 2012 sold more than 2011, and 2013 will probably follow the same trend.

What am I trying to get at here? Either GW will get with the times before they go under, or they'll go under. That said, wouldn't it be nice to be able to buy a single sprue of minies for X cost and get a discount for buying 10.

Matney X wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

breacher18 wrote:
This has effected the miniwargaming store:
http://breacher18.com/heretics/

Bit late to the party here matey....

And didn't MiniWargaming state that the GW decision wasn't the biggest contributor to this decision, anyway?

They wanted to make it clear that it wasn't the ONLY factor in the decision which is a signficantly different point. After making that statement, they then went on for the rest of the remaining 95% of the video talking exclusively about the GW trade terms details/fallacies and how it affected them.

 warboss wrote:

Matney X wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

breacher18 wrote:
This has effected the miniwargaming store:
http://breacher18.com/heretics/

Bit late to the party here matey....

And didn't MiniWargaming state that the GW decision wasn't the biggest contributor to this decision, anyway?

They wanted to make it clear that it wasn't the ONLY factor in the decision which is a signficantly different point. After making that statement, they then went on for the rest of the remaining 95% of the video talking exclusively about the GW trade terms details/fallacies and how it affected them.

Yep it wasnt the only reason BUT, well they werent going to close it till this happened, so it was definetly the final straw, in fact id call it a bale of straw.... that and they just released their own new table top game as well... i think he said it wasnt the only thing but a very large contributing factor......

Orktavius wrote:
GW's posistioning itself as a seller of a PREMIUM product at a PREMIUM price and while some folks will disagree aesthetically GW's mini's are factually the highest quality plastic and resin mini's around

HAHAHAHAHA thank you for the fantastic laugh this morning. Sig'ed

steve2112 wrote:
I think if my FLGS could only order 500 per month of special order stuff he would be at a loss. Almost everything i want now is special order. I have all the core units i will every need but my special characters are direct order stuff. Times that by 10 and he reaches his limit.

The thing that gets me the most is that i cannot go into my local store and get most of the things for my army because of special ordering and stuff like that. He can't even stock it. I understand if GW is low on inventory , or if they are switching materials and need to coordinate stuff. If i owned a FLGS and my meta was say very Space Marine and Eldar you bet I would want ever model there for impulse sales and such.

This is the core point I feel everyone is missing. The same non-customer outrage brigade is flaring up anger again, but the main issue is not that GW is drinking the tears of Internet dealers, Exporters and Bitz sellers. It is that they claim to want to drive sales to FLGS to support them and now like steve2112 said... GW makes new releases WE want, and we cannot go to our FLGS and buy them or even patiently order them. I have no problem waiting a month for a release if the place where I play with that gaming system can get the business. That is the only thing I would hope GW reconsiders... but I suspect GW feels if the exporters and Internet discounters dry up, then they will find FLGS who were doing those sales won't have the need for 500$+ of direct sales. This is the issue which needs changing. I am not worried about Bitz sellers losing profit margin or exporters, only FLGS inability to sell product in person.

If I'm not mistaken, and I totally could be, aren't a number of these new policies against the US Anti-trust laws? Like the must sell product boxed as is, and the trade limit of $500 on certain products for retailers, and the inability to sell to people outside of the country? I mean these seem like violations of the predatory business practices and refusal to deal laws.

 TheMind wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, and I totally could be, aren't a number of these new policies against the US Anti-trust laws? Like the must sell product boxed as is, and the trade limit of $500 on certain products for retailers, and the inability to sell to people outside of the country? I mean these seem like violations of the predatory business practices and refusal to deal laws.

I don't believe they do simply because (if I remember correctly), Anti-trust laws are to protect corporations from becoming too large. If GW and Company X both made Space Marines for Company Y's Warhammer 40k, then they might be violating Anti-trust laws.

But with all that said, I'm not a lawyer and don't know law

 TheMind wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, and I totally could be, aren't a number of these new policies against the US Anti-trust laws? Like the must sell product boxed as is, and the trade limit of $500 on certain products for retailers, and the inability to sell to people outside of the country? I mean these seem like violations of the predatory business practices and refusal to deal laws.

You have only the rights that you demand and win in a court of law. GW has a proven track record of threatening to or actually starting litigation on shaky legal ground. Distributors are likley an order of magnitude larger than any one average store and yet GW is at least an order of magnitude larger than them so can easily outspend anyone on the other side of the trade agreement. Unless someone wants to spend the tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of their life in litigating the trade agreement as opposed to either signing it or stopping selling GW products, it makes no difference what the law does or does not say (and I claim no expert or amateur knowledge on that subject). The federal government has bigger fish to fry (or ignore even) than a toy soldier maker with so many viable competitors.

nkelsch wrote:

steve2112 wrote:
I think if my FLGS could only order 500 per month of special order stuff he would be at a loss. Almost everything i want now is special order. I have all the core units i will every need but my special characters are direct order stuff. Times that by 10 and he reaches his limit.

The thing that gets me the most is that i cannot go into my local store and get most of the things for my army because of special ordering and stuff like that. He can't even stock it. I understand if GW is low on inventory , or if they are switching materials and need to coordinate stuff. If i owned a FLGS and my meta was say very Space Marine and Eldar you bet I would want ever model there for impulse sales and such.

This is the core point I feel everyone is missing. The same non-customer outrage brigade is flaring up anger again, but the main issue is not that GW is drinking the tears of Internet dealers, Exporters and Bitz sellers. It is that they claim to want to drive sales to FLGS to support them and now like steve2112 said... GW makes new releases WE want, and we cannot go to our FLGS and buy them or even patiently order them. I have no problem waiting a month for a release if the place where I play with that gaming system can get the business. That is the only thing I would hope GW reconsiders... but I suspect GW feels if the exporters and Internet discounters dry up, then they will find FLGS who were doing those sales won't have the need for 500$+ of direct sales. This is the issue which needs changing. I am not worried about Bitz sellers losing profit margin or exporters, only FLGS inability to sell product in person.

That's not a core point everyone is missing, it's just GW dropped several bombs at once and it's hard to track the outrage on specific points, lol.

Personally I'm unhappy on all accounts.

1. GW restricting direct sales and cutting off their 3rd party retailer profit.

2. GW wanting to stop bits sales, cutting off the profits of bits sellers and also making their product less appealing to me because I can no longer build armies the way I wanted (assuming they are successful, but even if they aren't I'm not happy for their attempt at doing so).

3. No internet sales and no exporting pisses me off because instead of trying to adapt to technology and a global market to the benefit of consumers, they are fighting against it. They don't have to be completely dynamic with the exchange rate on a day to day basis, of course not, but they've chosen to go the other extreme of completely ignoring exchange rate to the detriment of retailers and consumers and now instead of trying to fix it they're trying to make the international market disappear.

I am typically a man who doesn't overly care about the business practices of a company as long as they produce a product I want for a price I want, GW are pushing my limit at the moment and #3 on that list will push me over the edge if it actually comes to pass that the international market dies and #1 will push me over the edge if I start seeing my FLGS dying and/or no longer carrying GW products.

I was just telling a friend that the other day.

GW has been doing so many sketchy things lately that its hard to keep track of them all. In the last two years we've gotten a huge amount of bad moves on GWs part

-Australian embargo
-Finecast quality
-Finecast material cost (1/10 that of metal but +15% price?)
-The annual price rises
-One man demo stores
-Death from the skies retailer snub
-Destroying online sales
-Cutting off international sales

Im sure there is much more then that but it really seems like they're throwing at us all at once, especially since we have a price rise coming up shortly....

All of those things are bad, but on the other hand, we have gotten a lot of good things in the last year as well (How many army books in a row now?).

It is like they have some sort of crazy manic disorder or do everything according to some giant Wheel of Fortune.

 pretre wrote:
All of those things are bad, but on the other hand, we have gotten a lot of good things in the last year as well (How many army books in a row now?).

It is like they have some sort of crazy manic disorder or do everything according to some giant Wheel of Fortune.

Maybe they believe in a negatively balanced universe where for every good thing they do they have to kick people in the balls twice to balance it out.

Yeah but we should expect good things, and making books is normal. They have a release schedule like they did back in 3rd. At the rate they are going they will have all 15 armies updated by 7th.

Point is you dont get rewarded for doing what is expected of you, you get rewarded when you go above and beyond, and in equal measure you will be shamed when you are not performing properly.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 pretre wrote:
All of those things are bad, but on the other hand, we have gotten a lot of good things in the last year as well (How many army books in a row now?).

It is like they have some sort of crazy manic disorder or do everything according to some giant Wheel of Fortune.

Maybe they believe in a negatively balanced universe where for every good thing they do they have to kick people in the balls twice to balance it out.

You know... That isn't such a crazy idea.

"Okay, we're going to release a new Chaos book... But in order to do that, we're going to need to hike prices..."

Also, was Finecast still in the last year? Seems longer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Yeah but we should expect good things, and making books is normal. They have a release schedule like they did back in 3rd. At the rate they are going they will have all 15 armies updated by 7th.

Even third edition didn't release a book a month.

3rd was once every 3 months for dexs with random stuff inbetween, its pretty close, the only difference is the books are double in price, despite being nicer and fleshed out, the content is basically the same.

And fine cast was 2011, alot has gone down in 2 years.

 Ravenous D wrote:
3rd was once every 3 months for dexs with random stuff inbetween, its pretty close, the only difference is the books are double in price, despite being nicer and fleshed out, the content is basically the same.

And fine cast was 2011, alot has gone down in 2 years.

Oh, you did say 2 years. My bad.

The codexes are significantly more than 'fleshed out' from the third edition ones. Compare 3rd Ed Space Marines to 5th Ed Space Marines. HUGE difference. Heck, DA was just a pamphlet compared to the full hardcover dex.

My point is that they are putting out one a month right now, with new model ranges. That's pretty exceptional. They've never done that before.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 pretre wrote:
All of those things are bad, but on the other hand, we have gotten a lot of good things in the last year as well (How many army books in a row now?).

It is like they have some sort of crazy manic disorder or do everything according to some giant Wheel of Fortune.

Maybe they believe in a negatively balanced universe where for every good thing they do they have to kick people in the balls twice to balance it out.

This made me laugh out loud. Great post.

Its good and bad.

Its good because we get lots of new stuff frequently

Its bad because if you're like me you buy ever codex to "know thy enemy" and it makes it more difficult to keep up with all the wacky stuff. As well as a painter I find it annoying as hell when I put in hundreds of hours into an army that is only playable (and more importantly sellable) for a few months.

 pretre wrote:
All of those things are bad, but on the other hand, we have gotten a lot of good things in the last year as well (How many army books in a row now?).

Really? That GW have managed to keep up with their release schedule is your entire summation of good things that have come out of Nottingham last year?!

PhantomViper wrote:
Really? That GW have managed to keep up with their release schedule is your entire summation of good things that have come out of Nottingham last year?!

That's pretty disingenuous. They haven't 'kept up with their release schedule' in the last year; they have shattered it. Take an honest look at the number of army books released in the last year (and models to go with them) and then find another time when we have received anything like this much attention for one or more systems. The closest is the launch of third edition and those books/launches had far fewer models/pages in them than we are getting now.


edit: I mean, last 6 months even:
Tau
Daemons (2 Books)
DA
WoC
CSM
Starter Set

 pretre wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Really? That GW have managed to keep up with their release schedule is your entire summation of good things that have come out of Nottingham last year?!

That's pretty disingenuous. They haven't 'kept up with their release schedule' in the last year; they have shattered it. Take an honest look at the number of army books released in the last year (and models to go with them) and then find another time when we have received anything like this much attention for one or more systems. The closest is the launch of third edition and those books/launches had far fewer models/pages in them than we are getting now.

I think it might be tough to know precisely what their release schedule is, since they don't seem to publish any sort of schedule? I've been hearing rumors of Tau being released since October. The rumors said anywhere between Feb 2013 and September 2013. I'm not disagreeing with you by the way. I just think GW isn't very generous with information about its plans. I guess I'm spoiled by knowing 3 years ago that a new Hobbit movie was coming out, but not knowing what GW is doing 30 days from now.

On topic… guys… stop buying GW… Boycott the Tau, don’t buy for 2 months… stocks drop.

Funny thing is Dakka can turn a simple kickstarter into a Multi-Million dollar project with very little effort… but it can’t make an industry change like boycott or something… for having power in one direction it lacks in another.

Ahh, yes. Boycotts have worked spectacularly before. In general, people are willing to boycott until their army is updated. Then they start buying again. Not to mention we are a small segment of GW's overall base.

GW is treating the BUSINESS in a way i dont like,

but wont really affect me much since I buy from GW or online if Im feeling cheap.

I dont see online bitz sales going anywhere, and TBH any FLGS i go in that actually has 40k has poor selection anyway,

YMMV

Id say I am a bit annoyed at the international price differences, when my $ was worth 15% less then the americain dollar I paid 15% more for minis,

when my $ was worth MORE then the americain dollar, I still paid 15% more for minis...

but thats with every product ever, again unless im using ebay.


all this business stuff pales compared to the awesomeness that is this new release shceduale...

keep the codexes and faq updates happening this fast and I am a happy camper

 5deadly wrote:

On topic… guys… stop buying GW… Boycott the Tau, don’t buy for 2 months… stocks drop.

Why? I'm getting practically a codex a month, I have FW HH books and models, 6th Edition is much better than 5th edition for my gaming group, and I really enjoy the Chaos Space Marines and Daemons Codex.

Why should I do anything? I'm HAPPY with my hobby.

 kronk wrote:

 5deadly wrote:

On topic… guys… stop buying GW… Boycott the Tau, don’t buy for 2 months… stocks drop.

Why? I'm getting practically a codex a month, I have FW HH books and models, 6th Edition is much better than 5th edition for my gaming group, and I really enjoy the Chaos Space Marines and Daemons Codex.

Why should I do anything? I'm HAPPY with my hobby.

I think this is the part that a lot of people don't get. There are quite a few people out there (more than likely the majority of GW's base) who are seeing this as a golden age for new books, models, etc. Even with price hikes, etc so on, folks with plenty of disposable income don't care.

easysauce wrote:
GW is treating the BUSINESS in a way i dont like,

but wont really affect me much since I buy from GW or online if Im feeling cheap.

And where do you buy your GW online? From games-workshop.com?

 Alfndrate wrote:

easysauce wrote:
GW is treating the BUSINESS in a way i dont like,

but wont really affect me much since I buy from GW or online if Im feeling cheap.

And where do you buy your GW online? From games-workshop.com?

Yup, I don't think he thought that one through...

 pretre wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
3rd was once every 3 months for dexs with random stuff inbetween, its pretty close, the only difference is the books are double in price, despite being nicer and fleshed out, the content is basically the same.

And fine cast was 2011, alot has gone down in 2 years.

Oh, you did say 2 years. My bad.

The codexes are significantly more than 'fleshed out' from the third edition ones. Compare 3rd Ed Space Marines to 5th Ed Space Marines. HUGE difference. Heck, DA was just a pamphlet compared to the full hardcover dex.

My point is that they are putting out one a month right now, with new model ranges. That's pretty exceptional. They've never done that before.

Last push before the plunge?

If you want to change GW put some money into a kickstarter to BUY GW.
Call it the GW fan trust or whatever.
Any attempts at a united front to a boycott with fail and gw won't notice.


To Petre and Kronk, I agree that this is so much better than it used to be, good codices, good models. high quality kits and crazy quick release dates. I'm impressed with how much they have done in the 9 months of 6th edition.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
If you want to change GW put some money into a kickstarter to BUY GW.
Call it the GW fan trust or whatever.
Any attempts at a united front to a boycott with fail and gw won't notice.

And any attempts at a "GW fan trust" are going to be as pathetically disjointed as the current corporate management.

I cannot think of more than maybe ten people from this forum I would feel comfortable with having any kind of managerial position at a major corporation. I certainly would not want to see a corporation being run by a "collective" that cannot even make up their mind on whether or not a certain rule works as it is written or if there is some kind of "intention" for the rule.

You know people have been throwing around praise for the release schedule for the last page or so I'm just going to pass on a thought my friend shared with me the other day.
If this were a new, permanent release schedule GW would be going on and on and on about how great their new system is. Instead they haven't really remarked upon it (outside of your semi-friendly neighborhood redshirt).
All these releases are usually ready months in advance and just waiting for their release date, so it's not inconceivable the DA, (both) Daemons, WoC and Tau were all just sitting around up until the start of the year.
So why are they all being rushed out now? Well there was that Hobbit thing GW sunk a lot of money into and seemed to be expecting great things from, how'd that turn out again?


His view (which makes more sense the more I think about it) was that GW are just rushing releases that were planned for the next 6 months in order to make up for the Hobbit flopping, the push to direct all internet sales directly through GW would also support the theory they are desperately trying to cover their losses before the next financial report is due.

 jonolikespie wrote:
You know people have been throwing around praise for the release schedule for the last page or so I'm just going to pass on a thought my friend shared with me the other day.
If this were a new, permanent release schedule GW would be going on and on and on about how great their new system is. Instead they haven't really remarked upon it (outside of your semi-friendly neighborhood redshirt).
All these releases are usually ready months in advance and just waiting for their release date, so it's not inconceivable the DA, (both) Daemons, WoC and Tau were all just sitting around up until the start of the year.
So why are they all being rushed out now? Well there was that Hobbit thing GW sunk a lot of money into and seemed to be expecting great things from, how'd that turn out again?


His view (which makes more sense the more I think about it) was that GW are just rushing releases that were planned for the next 6 months in order to make up for the Hobbit flopping, the push to direct all internet sales directly through GW would also support the theory they are desperately trying to cover their losses before the next financial report is due.

Makes sense.

The death of many online retailers, while damaging to GW, is going to be more damaging to the smaller miniature companies that are GWs competition. GW may take a small hit but in return could cause some of their competition, albeit small in comparison to GW itself, to fold.

Just a conspiracy theory I have.

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2013/03/gws-new-terms-to-sellers-really-attack.html

 pretre wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 5deadly wrote:

On topic… guys… stop buying GW… Boycott the Tau, don’t buy for 2 months… stocks drop.

Why? I'm getting practically a codex a month, I have FW HH books and models, 6th Edition is much better than 5th edition for my gaming group, and I really enjoy the Chaos Space Marines and Daemons Codex.

Why should I do anything? I'm HAPPY with my hobby.

I think this is the part that a lot of people don't get. There are quite a few people out there (more than likely the majority of GW's base) who are seeing this as a golden age for new books, models, etc. Even with price hikes, etc so on, folks with plenty of disposable income don't care.

For me a "Golden Age" is supposed to be more about quality than quantity.

The new rulebooks are just as badly balanced as ever, maybe even more so since GW as decided to drop any pretence that they make rules with any other purpose than to push the newest models in detriment of everything else.

The non-rules part of the codices are even worse, with all the newest fiction reading like badly written pieces of fanfic!

And the models have become worse and worse with each release! Baring some small exceptions, the newest crop of GW sculpts are just over-busy, soulless pieces of crap filled with needless "detail", that look like they have been pulled out of a toys are us shelf. Its like they are a parody of themselves...

If this makes me happy in a way because the state of the GW games is translated by the increasing number of players that are ditching them for games that I actually play currently, a small part of me cries every time I look at my Dark Elves and Imperial Guard armies, the ones that originally brought me into the hobby and the sole survivors of the 6+ armies that I had a few short years ago...

 jonolikespie wrote:
You know people have been throwing around praise for the release schedule for the last page or so I'm just going to pass on a thought my friend shared with me the other day.
If this were a new, permanent release schedule GW would be going on and on and on about how great their new system is. Instead they haven't really remarked upon it (outside of your semi-friendly neighborhood redshirt).
All these releases are usually ready months in advance and just waiting for their release date, so it's not inconceivable the DA, (both) Daemons, WoC and Tau were all just sitting around up until the start of the year.
So why are they all being rushed out now? Well there was that Hobbit thing GW sunk a lot of money into and seemed to be expecting great things from, how'd that turn out again?


His view (which makes more sense the more I think about it) was that GW are just rushing releases that were planned for the next 6 months in order to make up for the Hobbit flopping, the push to direct all internet sales directly through GW would also support the theory they are desperately trying to cover their losses before the next financial report is due.

I was considering pretty much the same thing. Except that I've heard that 6th edition and a couple armies including Tau and Eldar have been ready since early last year. With the rumor that Kirby jumps ship in a year it would make sense that they held back releases, just to get a huge number of releases this year and try to make profits as high possible before he sells his stock.

Or it could be just the logical conclusion of "Hey, we have a bunch of stuff in the warehouse we could be selling. Why not make money now?

 OverwatchCNC wrote:


The death of many online retailers, while damaging to GW, is going to be more damaging to the smaller miniature companies that are GWs competition. GW may take a small hit but in return could cause some of their competition, albeit small in comparison to GW itself, to fold.

Just a conspiracy theory I have.

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2013/03/gws-new-terms-to-sellers-really-attack.html

Hell, if that is their goal and it really does play out that way, then they are shrewd business people. If you can do something to rock the market and drive competing products out of business to rebuild the aftermath in your own image... then why not?

It is an interesting idea, especially if they have multiple armies and mini lines to launch... Starve the market for a little bit, get everyone hurting then release Products consumers are dying for and they will instantly abandon their personal boycotts and throw money hand over fist for the new toys.

nkelsch wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:


The death of many online retailers, while damaging to GW, is going to be more damaging to the smaller miniature companies that are GWs competition. GW may take a small hit but in return could cause some of their competition, albeit small in comparison to GW itself, to fold.

Just a conspiracy theory I have.

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2013/03/gws-new-terms-to-sellers-really-attack.html

Hell, if that is their goal and it really does play out that way, then they are shrewd business people. If you can do something to rock the market and drive competing products out of business to rebuild the aftermath in your own image... then why not?

It is an interesting idea, especially if they have multiple armies and mini lines to launch... Starve the market for a little bit, get everyone hurting then release Products consumers are dying for and they will instantly abandon their personal boycotts and throw money hand over fist for the new toys.

Our opinions are aligning more lately. Not sure how I feel about that...

-Removed-

 Bildsturmer wrote:
Support your local 3rd party producers and bootleggers.

Advocating illegal activities doesn't help anyone, regardless of what GW does.

 pretre wrote:

 Bildsturmer wrote:
Support your local 3rd party producers and bootleggers.

Advocating illegal activities doesn't help anyone, regardless of what GW does.

As expensive as FW and Puppets War are, I really don't like it that the Russians and Chinese are recasting their stuff. Smaller shops just don't have the profit margin to have their stuff ripped off like that - even Forge World which isn't really that small of an operation any more.

Now if they were to recast GW plastic/finecast stuff, then I'd have nothing to say. I don't feel it is any more valid for them to do it to GW than FW/PW, mind you, just that I don't feel a burning need to ride on my high horse while waving the GW corporate banner.

PhantomViper wrote:


For me a "Golden Age" is supposed to be more about quality than quantity.

The new rulebooks are just as badly balanced as ever, maybe even more so since GW as decided to drop any pretence that they make rules with any other purpose than to push the newest models in detriment of everything else.

The non-rules part of the codices are even worse, with all the newest fiction reading like badly written pieces of fanfic!

And the models have become worse and worse with each release! Baring some small exceptions, the newest crop of GW sculpts are just over-busy, soulless pieces of crap filled with needless "detail", that look like they have been pulled out of a toys are us shelf. Its like they are a parody of themselves...

None of what you said is remotely true, but great points otherwise.

 jonolikespie wrote:
You know people have been throwing around praise for the release schedule for the last page or so I'm just going to pass on a thought my friend shared with me the other day.
If this were a new, permanent release schedule GW would be going on and on and on about how great their new system is. Instead they haven't really remarked upon it (outside of your semi-friendly neighborhood redshirt).
All these releases are usually ready months in advance and just waiting for their release date, so it's not inconceivable the DA, (both) Daemons, WoC and Tau were all just sitting around up until the start of the year.
So why are they all being rushed out now? Well there was that Hobbit thing GW sunk a lot of money into and seemed to be expecting great things from, how'd that turn out again?


His view (which makes more sense the more I think about it) was that GW are just rushing releases that were planned for the next 6 months in order to make up for the Hobbit flopping, the push to direct all internet sales directly through GW would also support the theory they are desperately trying to cover their losses before the next financial report is due.

Quite right and inline with other information as well (the flurry of video games licenses).

For those who think it is great, have you considered what is next then? GW keeps their sales figures normalized through the release of Codices and Armybooks. Should they maintain the same rate of production (every month or two) they will run out of books to update long before they are ready to move to 7th Edition 40K on their historical release cycle. They will then need to throw a wrench into things in order to continuing driving sales...granted at that time I would assume the current management will have punched out and it will be someone else's problem (as noted by more and more frequent references to retirement obligations for core staff members in financial reports).

For a company like GW to be pushing releases this hard generally is indicative of troubled waters in the background - and given their first half year numbers in relation to how much new there was under that 6 month period...I would imagine that they are feeling the pinch of their own pricing policies that is running them out of their core demographic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:


The death of many online retailers, while damaging to GW, is going to be more damaging to the smaller miniature companies that are GWs competition. GW may take a small hit but in return could cause some of their competition, albeit small in comparison to GW itself, to fold.

Just a conspiracy theory I have.

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2013/03/gws-new-terms-to-sellers-really-attack.html

Hell, if that is their goal and it really does play out that way, then they are shrewd business people. If you can do something to rock the market and drive competing products out of business to rebuild the aftermath in your own image... then why not?

It is an interesting idea, especially if they have multiple armies and mini lines to launch... Starve the market for a little bit, get everyone hurting then release Products consumers are dying for and they will instantly abandon their personal boycotts and throw money hand over fist for the new toys.

Because that is actually criminally illegal in most countries (including the US, Canada, UK and Germany). CEOs have actually gone to jail for those sorts of business tactics - not to mention huge fines and restitution which is paid out to affected parties.

Anti-trust laws are not just in place to prevent monopolies. Most of the time they are applied to unfair market practices by dominant suppliers. The current terms could be legal as they are written - but depending on how certain things are actually implemented, it can invalidate the contract (at which point a mediator can force new terms on GW that they have to supply companies under) or it can become criminal activity (conspiracies and all the rest).

Honestly though, GW is too fat in order to attempt anything like that. Upwards of 95% of their costs are tied directly to things like personal and facilities. Manufacturing is a tiny fraction of it. If they were to try to actually starve a market, it would starve them faster as they do not have the capital on hand (keep paying out the dividends and no rainy day fund) in order to survive a dry spell. If they drop, their stock price plummets and it risks collapsing the company under its own weight.

 pretre wrote:
That's pretty disingenuous. They haven't 'kept up with their release schedule' in the last year; they have shattered it. Take an honest look at the number of army books released in the last year (and models to go with them) and then find another time when we have received anything like this much attention for one or more systems. The closest is the launch of third edition and those books/launches had far fewer models/pages in them than we are getting now.

Then compare that release schedule to the previous year... It's easy to churn out releases when you sit on them and let them pile up for a year. Whether they can keep it up remains to be seen.

And the errata required for the DA book suggests that they can't.... not and keep any acceptable quality standard.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
For those who think it is great, have you considered what is next then? GW keeps their sales figures normalized through the release of Codices and Armybooks. Should they maintain the same rate of production (every month or two) they will run out of books to update long before they are ready to move to 7th Edition 40K on their historical release cycle. They will then need to throw a wrench into things in order to continuing driving sales...granted at that time I would assume the current management will have punched out and it will be someone else's problem (as noted by more and more frequent references to retirement obligations for core staff members in financial reports).

Let's postulate a future release schedule to see how things would work out:

Tau - April 2013
Dwarves - May 2013
Allies (40k)- June 2013
WE - July 2013
Eldar - August 2013
Brets - Sept 2013
BT - Oct 2013
HElves - Nov 2013
Orks - Dec 2013
DElves - Jan 2014
SOB - Feb 2014
Liz - March 2014
SM - April 2014
Skaven - May 2014
IG - June 2014
9th edition Fantasy - July 2014
SW - August 2014
Beastmen - Sept 2014
Tyranids - Oct 2014
O&G - Nov 2014
BA - Dec 2014
TK - Jan 2015
DE - Feb 2015
OK - Mar 2015
GK - Apr 2015
VC - May 2015
Necrons - June 2015
Empire - July 2015
(All 5th edition 40k updated with 1 year to spare, since 7th edition 40k is released in 2016)

So assuming a one a month schedule, they could go to the middle of 2015 before finishing 40k to have all books updated to 6th. That would still leave a number of 8th edition Fantasy books to update and assumes no skipped months or other products. I think it is very doable but concede that they would run out of books this way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
Then compare that release schedule to the previous year... It's easy to churn out releases when you sit on them and let them pile up for a year. Whether they can keep it up remains to be seen.

Agreed. I don't really think they could keep it up for any great length of time. I think a more realistic assumption is one book per system every 3-4 months with each book getting a 'welcome to the new edition' update when the new edition comes out.

And the errata required for the DA book suggests that they can't.... not and keep any acceptable quality standard.

They've always had a ton of errata/issues with books, I didn't think DA was any different.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

easysauce wrote:
GW is treating the BUSINESS in a way i dont like,

but wont really affect me much since I buy from GW or online if Im feeling cheap.

And where do you buy your GW online? From games-workshop.com?

Yup, I don't think he thought that one through...

ebay wont be affected by the new rules at all, thats the cheapest place I find for mini's

other online non gw sources save me 10-20% off box price, and then charge 10-20% shipping...

so its about the same price as i get from gw online when gw does free shipping.

worst case scenario I have to pay 30$ for something that used to cost 25$, or even 20$...

so what?

I used to be able to buy a hambuger, fries, and a coke for under 4$... now its almost 10$.... everything goes up in price

ive just gotten used to it over 14 years of 40k


also the whole "GW will run out off books thing"


really?

its a BAD thing to have all the codexs up to date for once in the hobby?

sounds like paradise to me.

easysauce wrote:

ebay wont be affected by the new rules at all, thats the cheapest place I find for mini's

That's not what we're talking about in this thread, and even a cursory glance would show you that.

other online non gw sources save me 10-20% off box price, and then charge 10-20% shipping...

so its about the same price as i get from gw online when gw does free shipping.

What online non-gw sources? Please be specific.

nkelsch wrote:

steve2112 wrote:
I think if my FLGS could only order 500 per month of special order stuff he would be at a loss. Almost everything i want now is special order. I have all the core units i will every need but my special characters are direct order stuff. Times that by 10 and he reaches his limit.

The thing that gets me the most is that i cannot go into my local store and get most of the things for my army because of special ordering and stuff like that. He can't even stock it. I understand if GW is low on inventory , or if they are switching materials and need to coordinate stuff. If i owned a FLGS and my meta was say very Space Marine and Eldar you bet I would want ever model there for impulse sales and such.

This is the core point I feel everyone is missing. The same non-customer outrage brigade is flaring up anger again, but the main issue is not that GW is drinking the tears of Internet dealers, Exporters and Bitz sellers. It is that they claim to want to drive sales to FLGS to support them and now like steve2112 said... GW makes new releases WE want, and we cannot go to our FLGS and buy them or even patiently order them. I have no problem waiting a month for a release if the place where I play with that gaming system can get the business. That is the only thing I would hope GW reconsiders... but I suspect GW feels if the exporters and Internet discounters dry up, then they will find FLGS who were doing those sales won't have the need for 500$+ of direct sales. This is the issue which needs changing. I am not worried about Bitz sellers losing profit margin or exporters, only FLGS inability to sell product in person.

You should also consider that it has a greater impact than just that. I first started playing 40K with some friends of my brother who were stationed at KI Sawyer in Michigan. The nearest town was almost an hour drive away - and it only had a comic book store. The nearest game store was actually almost a 2 1/2 hour drive. There are actually a lot of locations like that in the US, and a lot of the people in those locations enjoy hobbies like miniature gaming. A lack of online retailers spells the death to them.

Or, consider again military members in locations like Guam, Diego Garcia or the Azores. I know when I went through bases there, there were no game stores at all. The export embargo would cut them off.

Just because something doesn't impact you doesn't mean it isn't of importance or even consideration. If the practices stifle your local store (limiting the new releases, limiting direct sales volumes, preventing online sales), you may end up seeing your own local store turn off the lights for the last time as well.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
You know people have been throwing around praise for the release schedule for the last page or so I'm just going to pass on a thought my friend shared with me the other day.
If this were a new, permanent release schedule GW would be going on and on and on about how great their new system is. Instead they haven't really remarked upon it (outside of your semi-friendly neighborhood redshirt).
All these releases are usually ready months in advance and just waiting for their release date, so it's not inconceivable the DA, (both) Daemons, WoC and Tau were all just sitting around up until the start of the year.
So why are they all being rushed out now? Well there was that Hobbit thing GW sunk a lot of money into and seemed to be expecting great things from, how'd that turn out again?


His view (which makes more sense the more I think about it) was that GW are just rushing releases that were planned for the next 6 months in order to make up for the Hobbit flopping, the push to direct all internet sales directly through GW would also support the theory they are desperately trying to cover their losses before the next financial report is due.

Quite right and inline with other information as well (the flurry of video games licenses).

For those who think it is great, have you considered what is next then? GW keeps their sales figures normalized through the release of Codices and Armybooks. Should they maintain the same rate of production (every month or two) they will run out of books to update long before they are ready to move to 7th Edition 40K on their historical release cycle. They will then need to throw a wrench into things in order to continuing driving sales...granted at that time I would assume the current management will have punched out and it will be someone else's problem (as noted by more and more frequent references to retirement obligations for core staff members in financial reports).

For a company like GW to be pushing releases this hard generally is indicative of troubled waters in the background - and given their first half year numbers in relation to how much new there was under that 6 month period...I would imagine that they are feeling the pinch of their own pricing policies that is running them out of their core demographic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:


The death of many online retailers, while damaging to GW, is going to be more damaging to the smaller miniature companies that are GWs competition. GW may take a small hit but in return could cause some of their competition, albeit small in comparison to GW itself, to fold.

Just a conspiracy theory I have.

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2013/03/gws-new-terms-to-sellers-really-attack.html

Hell, if that is their goal and it really does play out that way, then they are shrewd business people. If you can do something to rock the market and drive competing products out of business to rebuild the aftermath in your own image... then why not?

It is an interesting idea, especially if they have multiple armies and mini lines to launch... Starve the market for a little bit, get everyone hurting then release Products consumers are dying for and they will instantly abandon their personal boycotts and throw money hand over fist for the new toys.

Because that is actually criminally illegal in most countries (including the US, Canada, UK and Germany). CEOs have actually gone to jail for those sorts of business tactics - not to mention huge fines and restitution which is paid out to affected parties.

Anti-trust laws are not just in place to prevent monopolies. Most of the time they are applied to unfair market practices by dominant suppliers. The current terms could be legal as they are written - but depending on how certain things are actually implemented, it can invalidate the contract (at which point a mediator can force new terms on GW that they have to supply companies under) or it can become criminal activity (conspiracies and all the rest).

Honestly though, GW is too fat in order to attempt anything like that. Upwards of 95% of their costs are tied directly to things like personal and facilities. Manufacturing is a tiny fraction of it. If they were to try to actually starve a market, it would starve them faster as they do not have the capital on hand (keep paying out the dividends and no rainy day fund) in order to survive a dry spell. If they drop, their stock price plummets and it risks collapsing the company under its own weight.

Because CEOs are so in danger of going to jail, we should really ask the CEOs of Mortgage Companies and Big Banks in the US responsible for the economic collapse of 2008 how their time in jail is going. Oh wait.

 Alfndrate wrote:

easysauce wrote:

ebay wont be affected by the new rules at all, thats the cheapest place I find for mini's

That's not what we're talking about in this thread, and even a cursory glance would show you that.

other online non gw sources save me 10-20% off box price, and then charge 10-20% shipping...

so its about the same price as i get from gw online when gw does free shipping.

What online non-gw sources? Please be specific.

Well, actually eBay would be cut off for new products. If you are talking about second hand and used armies - then no...eBay will no doubt continue to be a steady stream as people quit GW.

Not sure on the shipping blah stuff... The majority of sources I have seen have free shipping at the same threshold GW do (so you get the free shipping plus a discount). Others use flat rates that would put a 10% discount on something like a Land Raider into the cost savings category...but they don't offer a 10% discount, they offer a 20-25% discount (so again...still better deal).

-Removed-

 Bildsturmer wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Bildsturmer wrote:
Support your local 3rd party producers and bootleggers.

Advocating illegal activities doesn't help anyone, regardless of what GW does.

If I own a model which I legally purchased, should I not be able to do what I wish with it?

In most western countries recasting, even for personal use, is illegal.

It's also not the topic of this thread. There have been plenty of discussions on this in the past, if you're interested in the whys and wherefores of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suggesting that recasting will spread as a result of this decision is one thing. Actively encouraging it is quite another.

Dakka does not, and can not, endorse copyright infringement.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Because CEOs are so in danger of going to jail, we should really ask the CEOs of Mortgage Companies and Big Banks in the US responsible for the economic collapse of 2008 how their time in jail is going. Oh wait.

Don't be disingenuous. Corporations are like hardcore tournament players - they follow the rules exactly as written (and not the intent), playing WAAC, exploiting every loophole. Of course all these laws are written by your friendly neighborhood corrupt congressmen who puts in those loopholes for every campaign contribution that corporation makes to them.

 judgedoug wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Because CEOs are so in danger of going to jail, we should really ask the CEOs of Mortgage Companies and Big Banks in the US responsible for the economic collapse of 2008 how their time in jail is going. Oh wait.

Don't be disingenuous. Corporations are like hardcore tournament players - they follow the rules exactly as written (and not the intent), playing WAAC, exploiting every loophole. Of course all these laws are written by your friendly neighborhood corrupt congressmen who puts in those loopholes for every campaign contribution that corporation makes to them.

Wow. That's a two-fer.

Try to keep the jabs at WAAC out of the thread, you'll just be mixing your metaphors and pissing off multiple groups of folks.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Not sure on the shipping blah stuff... The majority of sources I have seen have free shipping at the same threshold GW do (so you get the free shipping plus a discount). Others use flat rates that would put a 10% discount on something like a Land Raider into the cost savings category...but they don't offer a 10% discount, they offer a 20-25% discount (so again...still better deal).

For instance, Miniature Market with 25% off GW and free shipping over $99.

Should have been more specific on the free shipping thing,

GW ships free to their stores on all orders,

they ship free to you on orders above 100$ i think,

so when I order less then 100$ at a time, which is the majority, i save the shipping still.

that being said,

I understand some people are not in the position to saunter over to the local GW...

but a box going from 35$ to 38$ or 40$ isnt the end of the world... at least for those of us who are used to the price of EVERYTHING going up over time

if you are used to prices doing down on everything...

please tell me how I can join you in your consumer paradise

as for Ebay , it wont be affected,

there is no difference between a "new" mini in plastic in box, and a "used" mini in plastic in box,

GW wont be able to destroy the ebay "new-used goods" market at all,


Im not saying its not unpleasant to have to pay 20$ tommorow when you paid 15$ today,

Im just saying thats how everything goes, its not some GW centric evil,

if it makes you feel better, The average cost of a gallon of regular gas in the year of 1999 was $1.17. A dozen eggs at that time would run someone $1.08. A gallon of milk averaged out at $3.32.

easysauce wrote:
Should have been more specific on the free shipping thing,

GW ships free to their stores on all orders,

they ship free to you on orders above 100$ i think,

so when I order less then 100$ at a time, which is the majority, i save the shipping still.

that being said,

I understand some people are not in the position to saunter over to the local GW...

but a box going from 35$ to 38$ or 40$ isnt the end of the world... at least for those of us who are used to the price of EVERYTHING going up over time

if you are used to prices doing down on everything...

please tell me how I can join you in your consumer paradise

as for Ebay , it wont be affected,

there is no difference between a "new" mini in plastic in box, and a "used" mini in plastic in box,

GW wont be able to destroy the ebay "new-used goods" market at all,


Im not saying its not unpleasant to have to pay 20$ tommorow when you paid 15$ today,

Im just saying thats how everything goes, its not some GW centric evil,

if it makes you feel better, The average cost of a gallon of regular gas in the year of 1999 was $1.17. A dozen eggs at that time would run someone $1.08. A gallon of milk averaged out at $3.32.

You still haven't told us what online store you're buying from, and GW's free shipping is 50 USD or more.

dude, read carfully, ebay is the only online source I buy from aside from gw.com,

its cheaper then the 3rd party stores, even on "new-used in box" minis.

name the site that sells storm ravens for 75$ with free shipping then?

cause the ones I find are 85$ on 3rd party stores, but 50-65 $ on ebay NIB...

having to spend 100+ dollars just to save 15% isnt saving anything if I only wanted to spend 30$ in the first place,

yes some people will have to pay more,

yes it sucks to pay more,

yes thats just the way things work, not just for 40k

in my 14 years of 40k gaming I have seen gas/food/rent ect increase more then I have seen 40k minis increase

I guess its all based on expectations, I fully expect prices to go up, every year, for everything

some people expect them to go down or never change.

easysauce wrote:
dude, read carfully, ebay is the only online source I buy from aside from gw.com, its cheaper then the 3rd party stores, even on "new-used in box" minis. Name the site that sells storm ravens for 75$ with free shipping then? Cause the ones I find are 85$ on 3rd party stores, but 50-65 $ on ebay NIB... having to spend 100+ dollars just to save 15% isnt saving anything if I only wanted to spend 30$ in the first place, yes some people will have to pay more, yes it sucks to pay more, yes thats just the way things work, not just for 40k. In my 14 years of 40k gaming I have seen gas/food/rent ect increase more then I have seen 40k minis increase, I guess its all based on expectations, I fully expect prices to go up, every year, for everything, some people expect them to go down or never change.

Okay, now that we have it in a readable format. eBay is a beast of a different nature, you're not affected by GW's policies because eBay isn't a retailer with a trade account, it's an auction website that gives people a place and a way to sell their. The entire conversation has been talking about how this affects online retailers! Granted, the US has been living with this policy for 10 years, the real rub is the fact that retailers can no longer sell outside of their country.

$61.88 + shipping from MM

 Alfndrate wrote:

easysauce wrote:
dude, read carfully, ebay is the only online source I buy from aside from gw.com, its cheaper then the 3rd party stores, even on "new-used in box" minis. Name the site that sells storm ravens for 75$ with free shipping then? Cause the ones I find are 85$ on 3rd party stores, but 50-65 $ on ebay NIB... having to spend 100+ dollars just to save 15% isnt saving anything if I only wanted to spend 30$ in the first place, yes some people will have to pay more, yes it sucks to pay more, yes thats just the way things work, not just for 40k. In my 14 years of 40k gaming I have seen gas/food/rent ect increase more then I have seen 40k minis increase, I guess its all based on expectations, I fully expect prices to go up, every year, for everything, some people expect them to go down or never change.

Okay, now that we have it in a readable format. eBay is a beast of a different nature, you're not affected by GW's policies because eBay isn't a retailer with a trade account, it's an auction website that gives people a place and a way to sell their. The entire conversation has been talking about how this affects online retailers! Granted, the US has been living with this policy for 10 years, the real rub is the fact that retailers can no longer sell outside of their country.

If you have an ebay store with regular sales, that contract is going to consider you a "retailer/reseller" just the same as someone with their own site.

 Rented Tritium wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

easysauce wrote:
dude, read carfully, ebay is the only online source I buy from aside from gw.com, its cheaper then the 3rd party stores, even on "new-used in box" minis. Name the site that sells storm ravens for 75$ with free shipping then? Cause the ones I find are 85$ on 3rd party stores, but 50-65 $ on ebay NIB... having to spend 100+ dollars just to save 15% isnt saving anything if I only wanted to spend 30$ in the first place, yes some people will have to pay more, yes it sucks to pay more, yes thats just the way things work, not just for 40k. In my 14 years of 40k gaming I have seen gas/food/rent ect increase more then I have seen 40k minis increase, I guess its all based on expectations, I fully expect prices to go up, every year, for everything, some people expect them to go down or never change.

Okay, now that we have it in a readable format. eBay is a beast of a different nature, you're not affected by GW's policies because eBay isn't a retailer with a trade account, it's an auction website that gives people a place and a way to sell their. The entire conversation has been talking about how this affects online retailers! Granted, the US has been living with this policy for 10 years, the real rub is the fact that retailers can no longer sell outside of their country.

If you have an ebay store with regular sales, that contract is going to consider you a "retailer/reseller" just the same as someone with their own site.

Then easysauce would be affected

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Rented Tritium wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

easysauce wrote:
dude, read carfully, ebay is the only online source I buy from aside from gw.com, its cheaper then the 3rd party stores, even on "new-used in box" minis. Name the site that sells storm ravens for 75$ with free shipping then? Cause the ones I find are 85$ on 3rd party stores, but 50-65 $ on ebay NIB... having to spend 100+ dollars just to save 15% isnt saving anything if I only wanted to spend 30$ in the first place, yes some people will have to pay more, yes it sucks to pay more, yes thats just the way things work, not just for 40k. In my 14 years of 40k gaming I have seen gas/food/rent ect increase more then I have seen 40k minis increase, I guess its all based on expectations, I fully expect prices to go up, every year, for everything, some people expect them to go down or never change.

Okay, now that we have it in a readable format. eBay is a beast of a different nature, you're not affected by GW's policies because eBay isn't a retailer with a trade account, it's an auction website that gives people a place and a way to sell their. The entire conversation has been talking about how this affects online retailers! Granted, the US has been living with this policy for 10 years, the real rub is the fact that retailers can no longer sell outside of their country.

If you have an ebay store with regular sales, that contract is going to consider you a "retailer/reseller" just the same as someone with their own site.

Then easysauce would be affected

Any store with a contract who is caught selling to someone with a regular ebay presence probably is in violation. An ebay seller who is only buying from other ebay sellers, though, is more or less untouchable.

That said, it's going to be pretty hard to tie them with whoever is supplying them.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
$61.88 + shipping from MM

right so 100$ or so after shipping and customs

80-90$ if i lived in the states

Im not saying there wont be a difference, at least to those dependant on 3rd party stores...

i am saying the difference isnt the be all end all some are making it out to be,

if 10-20$ more per model kit makes or breaks your bank account... you have more important things then 40k to worry about

Ebay will be 100% unaffected, GW cant ban people selling 40k on ebay, all they can do is not give non-brick + mortar stores the direct discount on minis,


I think people are grossly over estimating the power of GW and making a big deal over something that is at worst a small price hike, if they choose to continue to use 3rd party stores over ebay.

easysauce wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
$61.88 + shipping from MM

right so 100$ or so after shipping and customs

80-90$ if i lived in the states

Im not saying there wont be a difference, at least to those dependant on 3rd party stores...

i am saying the difference isnt the be all end all some are making it out to be,

if 10-20$ more per model kit makes or breaks your bank account... you have more important things then 40k to worry about

Ebay will be 100% unaffected, GW cant ban people selling 40k on ebay, all they can do is not give non-brick + mortar stores the direct discount on minis,


I think people are grossly over estimating the power of GW and making a big deal over something that is at worst a small price hike, if they choose to continue to use 3rd party stores over ebay.

Eh, shipping from them is usually $5-10. My experience has been it's usually the ebay sellers that are gouging on shipping. I did miss that you were in Canada, so yeah it'll be pricier than that for you.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

I was considering pretty much the same thing. Except that I've heard that 6th edition and a couple armies including Tau and Eldar have been ready since early last year. With the rumor that Kirby jumps ship in a year it would make sense that they held back releases, just to get a huge number of releases this year and try to make profits as high possible before he sells his stock.

Or it could be just the logical conclusion of "Hey, we have a bunch of stuff in the warehouse we could be selling. Why not make money now?

Wait what? When did the Kirby retiring rumor come from?

Though he did say it would be 80 to 90 dollars if he lived in the states, if he lived in the states he could get the stormraven from the Warstore for 66 dollars plus 6.95 shipping. 10 dollars less than retail and it'll get to you in 3 to 5 days.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Though he did say it would be 80 to 90 dollars if he lived in the states, if he lived in the states he could get the stormraven from the Warstore for 66 dollars plus 6.95 shipping. 10 dollars less than retail and it'll get to you in 3 to 5 days.

Yeah, that was kind of my point

Ya im curious what online.store charges you that.much. Hell i only charge $5 and generally lose on shipping and I'm around the standard.

I think my last order from miniature market had like 7.50 shipping or so for a single pathfinder book.

For all the talk about Monopolies and unfair trade practices you have to remember something. The monopoly must be over a large part of the market that it effects. In this case even though GW is a big fish in a little pond it still doesn't control the "toy soldier" market (in fact I bet it doesn't even control a majority of it). There is no law that restricts how you sell your items to the general public (barring health and safety issues). If you want to restrict your market or the number of people that buy from you then that is your perogative. The only monopoly that GW has is over its own products. Those of us in the 40K/FB group don't really amount to much in the real world.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For all the talk about Monopolies and unfair trade practices you have to remember something. The monopoly must be over a large part of the market that it effects. In this case even though GW is a big fish in a little pond it still doesn't control the "toy soldier" market (in fact I bet it doesn't even control a majority of it). There is no law that restricts how you sell your items to the general public (barring health and safety issues). If you want to restrict your market or the number of people that buy from you then that is your perogative. The only monopoly that GW has is over its own products. Those of us in the 40K/FB group don't really amount to much in the real world.

You can make a clear distinction between model soldiers and Table Top Wargaming miniatures. Which GW most certaintly does control a large portion of the market for.

I'd even go to say there's a break between Historical and Fantasy/Sci-fi wargaming.


Of course GW isn't making the market difficult for its competitors to operate in. If anything they are making it easier by alienating its customer base and driving them to other companies.

Much like IP law, anti-trust seems to be grossly misunderstood.

Most countries evaluate trade terms under two different principles. The first is a manufacturer or suppliers share of a given market. The threshold for getting regulatory attention is not that high...no where near what people seem to believe. US laws generally refer to it in vague terms like market dominance. Canada for example has actually called out 35% though they have exceptions for dominant suppliers as well who are below that number. GW would meet the requirement to fall under most broad anti-trust laws, however it is more about what they do while they are the dominant supplier...not how big they are. The size only is a factor in figuring out if the regulatory body will involve themselves. For example, real luxury items like Rolex are outside the scope of most regulations because they have a tiny fraction of the watch market.

The second, and more important is how a suppliers trade practices impact an individual retailer. With MWG for example, 70% of their business came from GW. That places them in a overwhelmingly powerful position over the individual retailer, and allows them to force their decisions on that retailer. Again, specific numbers are not generally mentioned, but they do use many of the same broad terms...so again, GW would fall under most of the laws for many individual retailers. With those laws, regulators like the Competition Commission or the FTC (there is one in the UK as well...though the name slips my mind) will step in if terms or actions violate fair trade principles.

If I were a retailer, I would be making an enquiry with my regulators. Get some use out of the taxes and all that. Filing a lawsuit might be outside the scope of a given companies resource, but a regulator who is looking for a feather in their hat would probably be happy to lean on a supplier who is overreaching.

No regulator is going to give a rat's behind over this issue. If a store places itself in a position where one brand name item is its life's blood then it is incombent on the retailer to get himself out of that situation. If that item is the only item of its kind then the regulator may take a look at it and the overall impact on the public interest but again we're talking about toy soldiers and that doesn't effect a lot of people.

People have the ability to sue whoever they want for whatever reason they want but in this instance I'd lay my money on a store being laughed right out of court over this issue.

Regulators get involved with children's lemonade stands and home made quilts...they really have nothing which is too small for them.

As I have mentioned though, the new terms are a clear violation for Canadian retailers. US tends to be less black and white, though they do seem to violate a half dozen state laws.

 Alfndrate wrote:

easysauce wrote:

ebay wont be affected by the new rules at all, thats the cheapest place I find for mini's

That's not what we're talking about in this thread, and even a cursory glance would show you that.

other online non gw sources save me 10-20% off box price, and then charge 10-20% shipping...

so its about the same price as i get from gw online when gw does free shipping.

What online non-gw sources? Please be specific.

now that there cant be one? does ebay come under internet sales? can that even be enforced?

Yes, in so much as any company who is currently selling on eBay will be pretty easy to track down (dummy orders like GW did in the CHS case). People who are having items sold to them by a retailer and then selling them on eBay as an individual would be a bit more difficult - but a batch coding system would be pretty easy to implement and make tracking the entire path of the product a no brainer as well...

More likely though, they will rely on the loose lips philosophy and wait for people to turn other people in.

Lol, I still like how his 1 online source was eBay, and his other online source was... eBay... >_<

OH well, onwards to June 15th!

nkelsch wrote:
The same non-customer outrage brigade is flaring up anger again, but the main issue is not that GW is drinking the tears of Internet dealers, Exporters and Bitz seller

I think this might be the most lol bit of unintended humor I've ever read, and certainly this week at least. The only people that are unhappy with these changes are outside agitators. What a glorious use of the sword and shield - raise the Finecast banner high, brother, and continue to repel these infidels!

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
[Anti-trust laws are not just in place to prevent monopolies. Most of the time they are applied to unfair market practices by dominant suppliers.

All of those laws would really require a finding that Games Workshop has a monopoly on the miniature wargaming hobby, something they clearly do not have. There aren't going to be any Microsoft vs the Justice Department type events here.

 Ouze wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Anti-trust laws are not just in place to prevent monopolies. Most of the time they are applied to unfair market practices by dominant suppliers.

All of those laws would really require a finding that Games Workshop has a monopoly on the miniature wargaming hobby, something they clearly do not have. There aren't going to be any Microsoft vs the Justice Department type events here.

That's just not true.
ID explain, but Sean has done a good job of doing so and he's got the letters after his name to know what he's talking about (iirc).

 Ouze wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
[Anti-trust laws are not just in place to prevent monopolies. Most of the time they are applied to unfair market practices by dominant suppliers.

All of those laws would really require a finding that Games Workshop has a monopoly on the miniature wargaming hobby, something they clearly do not have. There aren't going to be any Microsoft vs the Justice Department type events here.

No. They don't.

Most anti-trust cases have nothing to do with monopolies anymore - those days are long since past. However, there are a lot of cases which come up that relate to predatory practices by major suppliers in any number of markets. Again, I point to Canada and their competition act where it is a clear violation by restricting the ability of a retailer to sell in other markets (of which online is one market that they are restricted from and overseas customers would be another market).

In the US, things are a bit more foggy. The language which sets up what vertical distribution structures are allowed and what are not allowed is somewhat foggy - but most is laid out in the Sherman Anti-trust Act. Recent cases have upheld the right of a company to set things like MSRP and limit deep discounting - but those are not all legal. FTC guidelines in the US generally prohibit a manufacturer from setting up a company store in direct competition with existing retail stores. That will end up being the primary action that will begin to see GW move from their guidelines being enforced legally versus illegal activity. Tie-in sales would likely be another thing that GW could run afoul with.

http://ftc.gov/bc/antitrust/supply_chain.shtm

None of the different clauses require a monopoly as most people seem to commonly understand the term. A company like GW would also be an easy target for a regulator who is looking to make a name for himself.

Here's a handy chart that will clear up any misunderstandings as to your right to sell your GW items::

If you signed a contract with GW then you are legally restriced in what you can do.

If you buy some GW miniatures from any source and do not sign any contracts, knock yourself out.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Anti-trust laws are not just in place to prevent monopolies. Most of the time they are applied to unfair market practices by dominant suppliers.

All of those laws would really require a finding that Games Workshop has a monopoly on the miniature wargaming hobby, something they clearly do not have. There aren't going to be any Microsoft vs the Justice Department type events here.

That's just not true.
ID explain, but Sean has done a good job of doing so and he's got the letters after his name to know what he's talking about (iirc).

No, but my wife does. And I have spent more than a little time dealing with the issues with my own attorneys to make sure I didn't run afoul of the law in our own business. I use MSE after my name when I want to do such things - though normally I don't use anything.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
FTC guidelines in the US generally prohibit a manufacturer from setting up a company store in direct competition with existing retail stores. That will end up being the primary action that will begin to see GW move from their guidelines being enforced legally versus illegal activity. Tie-in sales would likely be another thing that GW could run afoul with..

I'm not familiar with this, specifically the retail store elements I quoted. I've read through the link you dropped, and not seeing what you're saying (so I'm probably just missing it), but that aside for a moment. Doesn't there have to be some official finding that GWS has some sort of dominant relationship before anything like this could be actioned?

The overwhelming majority of ebay GW discounters are actually online stores that sell on ebay as a second storefront. FRPGames, MiniatureMarket, Discount Hobby, Dicehead, etc etc will all be affected by the new trade terms and I can guarantee you they will stop selling on ebay as well.

 BitWraith wrote:
Here's a handy chart that will clear up any misunderstandings as to your right to sell your GW items::

If you signed a contract with GW then you are legally restriced in what you can do.

If you buy some GW miniatures from any source and do not sign any contracts, knock yourself out.

What he said and sean until i see an esq in your name all legal statements are invalid.

I don't know about the rest of you, but both if my LGSs that sell warhammer are happy about the changes.

I have trouble believing that none of the rest of them out there are.

 Ouze wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
FTC guidelines in the US generally prohibit a manufacturer from setting up a company store in direct competition with existing retail stores. That will end up being the primary action that will begin to see GW move from their guidelines being enforced legally versus illegal activity. Tie-in sales would likely be another thing that GW could run afoul with..

I'm not familiar with this, specifically the retail store elements I quoted. I've read through the link you dropped, and not seeing what you're saying (so I'm probably just missing it), but that aside for a moment. Doesn't there have to be some official finding that GWS has some sort of dominant relationship before anything like this could be actioned?

GW actually claims the dominant relationship. You also have different sources like the IcV2 polls that can be used to demonstrate dominance to get the regulators moving. Once they are underway though - all they would do is call up a distributor like Alliance and ask for records of sales to establish the market dominance.

There are also case by case examples. If a supplier makes up a large percentage of a given retailers business, and the retailer meets certain other requirements (one example was using manufacturer provided signs and displays) it creates a defacto franchise relationship. That franchise relationship ensures that a manufacturer can not place a company store in competition with the retailer as common rights of the franchisee are exclusivity to territories. That is one of the reasons that GW placed the clause in the contract that says "You are not a franchise" or something like that. The problem though is that that clause is unenforceable in jurisdictions which grant defacto franchise relationships (sort of like the sign on the dump truck that says they are not responsible for damage caused by debris that falls off the truck...of course they are, you can not override existing laws with a contract).

Regarding the specific FTC guidelines, it is all buried in the case law and opinions. I would have to dig them back out of my tablet as I don't have the PDF files handy right now. If you give the Sherman Anti-trust Act a read though, most of it is fairly straight forward as to which clauses can be used and very few of them actually require a monopoly.

Well, that certainly explains that "franchisee" statement, which did stick out as odd.

 Empchild wrote:

 BitWraith wrote:
Here's a handy chart that will clear up any misunderstandings as to your right to sell your GW items::

If you signed a contract with GW then you are legally restriced in what you can do.

If you buy some GW miniatures from any source and do not sign any contracts, knock yourself out.

What he said and sean until i see an esq in your name all legal statements are invalid.

Ummm...huh?

I have never claimed to be an attorney, and I never give legal advice per se. I do give legal sources and research that I am aware of that others could use to pursue options. That can hardly be considered invalid. A licensed attorney would never give advice online - other than to seek the advice of a licensed attorney, as there are a variety of malpractice issues that they can run afoul of. They might provide commentary, which isn't much different than what I am doing - the only difference is that they might have a clearer memory of which cases impact certain aspects.

In regards to the person you have quoted...that is exactly what I have been saying. The supply chain will be limited with the way the contract is written. They can no longer sell to businesses (whether bits dealers, painters or eBay retailers). However, if you buy product from one of them, you are not bound by that contract...though you do put their business at risk as if GW identifies your source of goods - they can shut off their trade account.

There is no reason to take what I say for anything other than what it is - generally pointing to a source where you can follow up with your own research (like the Competition Act in Canada) and if you feel it might apply contact the appropriate people (either attorneys or the regulators like the FTC or Competition Commission in Canada).

In regards to the person you have quoted...that is exactly what I have been saying. The supply chain will be limited with the way the contract is written. They can no longer sell to businesses (whether bits dealers, painters or eBay retailers). However, if you buy product from one of them, you are not bound by that contract...though you do put their business at risk as if GW identifies your source of goods - they can shut off their trade account.

Seems like the burden would fall on GW to prove some sort of intent. I doubt that 99% of retailers keep track of the goings-on of their customers, and I really don't think anyone is going to institute background checks on GW miniatures. I don;t think GW has a gestapo like underground police force - but if they do I'm sure they could improve their margins substantially by getting rid of the department. That was sarcasm BTW.

It seems like it would be difficult to prove in any court, contract or no, that a retailer is responsible for the actions of their customers. If that were the case, then gun sellers would be in court all the time for murders committed with their weapons.

 Ouze wrote:
Well, that certainly explains that "franchisee" statement, which did stick out as odd.

Just a quick link to one of the better summary articles which covers some of the issues I had mentioned in regards to the retail stores (far from the only one - but an easy read):

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-324311849741271/unrestricted/!thesisd.pdf

It deals primarily with Iowa's franchise law, though it also bounces back and forth with Federal laws and those of other states. Page 16 gives a brief regarding the encroachment law. The importance of this is that Iowa is a state that grants defacto franchise status between suppliers and retailers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BitWraith wrote:

In regards to the person you have quoted...that is exactly what I have been saying. The supply chain will be limited with the way the contract is written. They can no longer sell to businesses (whether bits dealers, painters or eBay retailers). However, if you buy product from one of them, you are not bound by that contract...though you do put their business at risk as if GW identifies your source of goods - they can shut off their trade account.

Seems like the burden would fall on GW to prove some sort of intent. I doubt that 99% of retailers keep track of the goings-on of their customers, and I really don't think anyone is going to institute background checks on GW miniatures. I don;t think GW has a gestapo like underground police force - but if they do I'm sure they could improve their margins substantially by getting rid of the department. That was sarcasm BTW.

It seems like it would be difficult to prove in any court, contract or no, that a retailer is responsible for the actions of their customers. If that were the case, then gun sellers would be in court all the time for murders committed with their weapons.

I don't think they would be able to track down all of them - but I am sure they will find some...

The issue though is that GW can just stop supplying them, they don't need to prove anything. The retailer would need to take them to court under one of the anti-trust statutes that I have been pointing towards or file a complaint with the FTC under an abusive business practices claim...

The issue though is that GW can just stop supplying them, they don't need to prove anything. The retailer would need to take them to court under one of the anti-trust statutes that I have been pointing towards or file a complaint with the FTC under an abusive business practices claim...

And of course no small game store can afford to take GW to court - and the circle of life is now complete!

 BitWraith wrote:

The issue though is that GW can just stop supplying them, they don't need to prove anything. The retailer would need to take them to court under one of the anti-trust statutes that I have been pointing towards or file a complaint with the FTC under an abusive business practices claim...

And of course no small game store can afford to take GW to court - and the circle of life is now complete!

Correct...which leads to my conspiracy theory that the secondary reason for these contract clauses is to allow GW to stifle LGS which are problematic for them. Whether it is a LGS which is preventing one of their stores to be profitable, or one which they have another issue with...though that is just crazy talk...

BTW, Ouze - another good read in general is this one:

http://www.pli.edu/product_files/EN00000000104805/88318.pdf

In particular take note of what is used to prove market dominance and also the dual distribution issue (where a supplier also is a retailer and would be competing against other retailers). Pay careful not to terminology as they often switch from customer to distributor and can be talking about the same thing...a retailer. I am trying to track down the case law behind the geographic restriction issue (5.30) which seems to imply that a supplier can not cancel a distribution contract if a geographic market restriction is violated, but can only fine them equal to the loss to see how that might be calculated...it may end up being a choice for retailers who want to still run the blockade around Australia and elsewhere.

There is also a good chance that GW might be found to have made decisions relating to the contract as a result of pressures (like other B&M stores complaining about internet sales...and possibly with relation to the dual-distribution issue, their own retail arm). That could end up invalidating the entire internet ban...though no doubt, that is probably part of the reason that they listed the "reasons" they listed in the contract itself.

OK, this is a lot of reading, so I'll need a bit.

 judgedoug wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Because CEOs are so in danger of going to jail, we should really ask the CEOs of Mortgage Companies and Big Banks in the US responsible for the economic collapse of 2008 how their time in jail is going. Oh wait.

Don't be disingenuous. Corporations are like hardcore tournament players - they follow the rules exactly as written (and not the intent), playing WAAC, exploiting every loophole. Of course all these laws are written by your friendly neighborhood corrupt congressmen who puts in those loopholes for every campaign contribution that corporation makes to them.

No, they don't.

Hundreds of millions to billions of dollars have been paid out in settlements. Numerous prosecutors and regulators have said outright that criminal actions were committed by numerous financial firms. In fact, there was a Japanese company, IIRC, that revealed in a civil suit internal memos at Morgan Stanley where they were revealing how they defrauded their investors.

And BTW, basically every large bank has been implicated thus far - Wachovia, Bank of America, JP Morgan, UBS, and HSBC have all paid out of court settlements numbering hundreds of millions of dollars. In effect, that's the purpose of the settlements - the US government is trying to innoculate the major US and international firms against potential criminal liability, or at least limit their liability to an absolute minimum. This is why virtually none of these companies have been forced into an admission of guilt following the settlements.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/financial-crisis-lawsuit-suggests-bad-behavior-at-morgan-stanley/

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/ubs-settlement-minimizes-impact-of-guilty-plea/

"As DealBook reported, the guilty plea by the UBS subsidiary is the first time an arm of major financial institution has been convicted of a crime since Drexel Burnham was more than 20 years ago. Although that distinguishes this case from most others, the Justice Department and UBS also structured the settlement to keep the potential fallout from the plea to a minimum."
"In the rate-manipulation settlement, the parent company received a separate nonprosecution agreement, which will be in effect for two years, after which the criminal investigation will be closed without any charges being filed."

etc.

So in effect,

They both break the law and evade criminal prosecution and simultaneously write the laws, although it is really unrealistic to expect that the US government or the DoJ would start writing the laws or especially breaking the laws to suit an obscure British manufacturer of miniature game tokens. Regarding the CEOs, the entire purpose of a corporation is to shield the investors and the employees from liability in the event of some catastrophic financial breakdown, so yes, the CEOs of GW are probably inclined towards the payday mentality of corporate leadership.

So, Warstore hasnt changed its online policy yet. When does this all go into effect?

June 15th

Apparently this is also outlawing Ebay ( if you buy from a trade account) also bones anyone supplying ebay sellers.

And by outlawing i mean they wont allow supply of product (via trade acc pricing) to someone for it....

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

xraytango wrote:
Just ordered bits from Warstore, help Neal out as much as we can guys!

I have a strong feeling that this new move by GW is directly aimed at him.

So was the shopping cart thing a few years back, apparently the warstore was pulling in more business then GW online and they had to crush it by claiming using their pictures and product codes violated their IP

That's legal?

No, it's not. Unless GW wants to mark all their images as copyrighted. In addition, as long as a site gives proper recognition to the copyright holder and is not reselling the image itself, it is all still legal.

However, it is against GW rules. So while you could get away with using their images given the above, they can also refuse to sell to you as a result of using their images. That is legal.

And therein lies the conundrum. Sure you could legally use their images. But they can then legally refuse to sell to you.

Just another case of GW wishing it was 1995 all over again.

You don't actually have to mark an image as copyright for copyright to apply to it. The marking is just an extra, visible reminder.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:


Actually it was a news article where Kirby was interviewed...probably the last 4 months or so. I will need to poke around to find the exact source though...unless someone else has it handy.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/18a3b430-6188-11e2-82cd-00144feab49a.html

“North America is going very well,” said Mr Kirby. “We’re looking at 700-800 stores in the US in the extreme long term and we’ve got 80 at the moment with plans to open 1-20 stores per year.”

Sorry, had to laugh at this. Kirby's plan is basically saying it will take from 35 to 100 years to fully realize in the US at opening a rate of 1-20 stores a year. I can even see the complete bullocks in this statement for the corporate doublespeak it is. Kirby is going to retire in the next 3-5 years. All he cares about at this point is pumping up the stock price for his retirement.

His only problem is, the dang internet. You see, because of the internet investors have become a lot smarter too. For example, yes we can see that they have become more profitable. However, we can also see this has come at the expense of critical cost-cutting in key business areas while non-critical areas (management) have doubled in the same time frame. We can see overall adjusted revenue decline in the last ten years. We can see a massive reduction in offerings in exchange for a few because the core functions of the business can no longer support the revenue generating areas of the business. In short, we can see today's GW for what it is - an executive management short-term pump and dump before retirement. Just like GW completely misunderstands their customers today, they also completely misunderstand investors. As an investor, I NEVER take what I read in their financials at face value - we are well aware that it is gloss-over junk made to make a company look good. We do our homework - and the homework on GW is making it look like an investment to stay clear of (or at least short) because their long-term growth prospects look dismal. Although GWs stock price has climbed well in the last twelve year, it is still off from the 2005 peak and is valley trending downwards now as is standard for their history since 1995. It started showing signs of resistance since August of last year and forward looking trends do not look like it is going to be broken.

Lastly, I'd like to correct a fallacy that inevitably always comes up in threads like this (as it already has) and this is not directed at anyone in particular. Stockholders (investors) do NOT ONLY care about profit. Take a look at Apple's stock performance since last September for a key indicator of this. The problem is, most senior management focuses on profit and the P/E ratio as a measure of investment attractiveness, whereas many investors focus on adjusted revenue growth, investment (growth) in core business disciplines and meeting or exceeding standard industry net income margins. I, personally, have direct investment in 34 companies and many investors in my own company. First and foremost, we always look at revenue growth versus inflation-adjusted performance. That is a key indicator of business direction and in the last 10-years GW has failed miserably here (they have declined over the last ten years by 28% in inflation adjusted revenue). So, if a company fails at revenue growth, is it because of market forces? Well the success of PP, Battlefront, and the shear number of high-quality products and companies coming in the market seem to indicate otherwise. So next we look at PPU (price per unit). One example - Land Raider was $50 in 2001, should be $65 in inflation adjusted today but is $75 so 15% above inflation. So it is not because pricing has decreased. Okay then, how is profit better then if revenue has fallen? So we look at costs. GW has managed to cut costs all right - of core business functions. In the same period, non-core (i.e., the money sinks) have almost doubled. In other words, GW financials of the last ten years alone give a picture of a company being run for the enrichment of senior management, not as a business (these are the ones that Warren Buffett warns to stay well away from). GW currently gives the picture of a company to stay away from for investment (or, at best, to short) even though there have been profit improvements. My point here is, investors/stockholders do not ONLY care about profit at the expense of all other key, and sane, business practices. Investors are customers of companies too. Unfortunately, far too many companies are run as if investors only care about profit (ah, who are we kidding, they are run solely for the purpose of making senior management wealthy, investors are just something they have to deal with to get there) when that is usually far from the case.

Someone claimed that brick and mortar stores will soon no longer sell be allowed to sell ANY GW products on-line, is this true?

This is all a direct result of the Chapterhouse lawsuit.
Also the fact they do not show anything early anymore is because of that too.They do not want to say something is coming out early then the 3rd party put out bits ahead of time(think thunderwolves)
This info came from Bothans,just saying

 BrookM wrote:
Someone claimed that brick and mortar stores will soon no longer sell be allowed to sell ANY GW products on-line, is this true?

Only in the US, where it's been the case for a decade now, as has been covered several times already in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eisenhorn wrote:

Also the fact they do not show anything early anymore is because of that too.They do not want to say something is coming out early then the 3rd party put out bits ahead of time(think thunderwolves)

Except the issue with Thunderwolves was that they were added to a codex, and then GW refused to give any indication as to just when a model would be released for them... And when enough time had gone by to make it obvious that they weren't a priority, other people started releasing their own versions. Fewer of these would have sold if people had known when GW versions were coming out. Or even if GW versions were coming out. Which ultimately means that the lack of news about the release cost GW sales.

So Thunderwolves are not an example of why the secrecy policy is in place. They're an example of why it's a stupid policy.

Who are GW investors really? I've seen the names of the organizations with foreign locations attached for contact, some these are people that do not have easy public information access.

Wayshuba wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

xraytango wrote:
Just ordered bits from Warstore, help Neal out as much as we can guys!

I have a strong feeling that this new move by GW is directly aimed at him.

So was the shopping cart thing a few years back, apparently the warstore was pulling in more business then GW online and they had to crush it by claiming using their pictures and product codes violated their IP

That's legal?

No, it's not. Unless GW wants to mark all their images as copyrighted. In addition, as long as a site gives proper recognition to the copyright holder and is not reselling the image itself, it is all still legal.

However, it is against GW rules. So while you could get away with using their images given the above, they can also refuse to sell to you as a result of using their images. That is legal.

And therein lies the conundrum. Sure you could legally use their images. But they can then legally refuse to sell to you.

Just another case of GW wishing it was 1995 all over again.

I'm not really sure about US law, but in the EU, wouldn't that be branded as anti-competitive practices?

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
Apparently this is also outlawing Ebay ( if you buy from a trade account) also bones anyone supplying ebay sellers.

And by outlawing i mean they wont allow supply of product (via trade acc pricing) to someone for it....

The ebay thing is not new. Been that way for years. Ebay is a shopping cart, no onliine shopping carts allowed.

In many ways, this is a restating of the rules they have in place, and a confirmation that a retail account buys product for retail sales, not for distribution to some other channel.

 Eisenhorn wrote:
This is all a direct result of the Chapterhouse lawsuit.
Also the fact they do not show anything early anymore is because of that too.They do not want to say something is coming out early then the 3rd party put out bits ahead of time(think thunderwolves)
This info came from Bothans,just saying

The issues relating to Thunderwolves (and others like them) have nothing to do with some sort of secrecy in the release schedule. GW had long had a habit of putting entries in rulebooks but not releasing models for them (sometimes never releasing a model for them). Third party manufacturers decided to fill the void that GW created and would not fill (still no official Jetbike Seers for the Eldar 6 years after their Codex was released).

The reason they went to secret release schedules was an issue with lagging sales as people would wait for a release that they wanted more than the one that just came out. Wells stated that as their goal clearly.

The attack on the bits sales and other loopholes is against competition for their own web store sales - not due to CHS. Their direct sales channel is down 3% as a portion of their sales by channel (direct, GW Stores, Independents) and no doubt, they see bits sales as one of the reasons as that allowed retailers to skirt the on-line ban under the 2003 terms. Since each percentage that they loose from their direct store equates to about $1.2 million in lost revenue (difference between selling the same product through their own store at full retail versus selling at the discounted price to an independent store) - they have gotten to the point in their cost cutting where they have to look at outside factors they can squash.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

Wayshuba wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

xraytango wrote:
Just ordered bits from Warstore, help Neal out as much as we can guys!

I have a strong feeling that this new move by GW is directly aimed at him.

So was the shopping cart thing a few years back, apparently the warstore was pulling in more business then GW online and they had to crush it by claiming using their pictures and product codes violated their IP

That's legal?

No, it's not. Unless GW wants to mark all their images as copyrighted. In addition, as long as a site gives proper recognition to the copyright holder and is not reselling the image itself, it is all still legal.

However, it is against GW rules. So while you could get away with using their images given the above, they can also refuse to sell to you as a result of using their images. That is legal.

And therein lies the conundrum. Sure you could legally use their images. But they can then legally refuse to sell to you.

Just another case of GW wishing it was 1995 all over again.

I'm not really sure about US law, but in the EU, wouldn't that be branded as anti-competitive practices?

In the EU it is anti-competitive. That is one of the reasons why EU/UK webstores can continue to operate (though they still suffer from the geographic restrictions).

US law isn't as clearly laid out though, and although it could be deemed anti-competitive...someone would need to challenge GW first in order to receive a ruling on the issue.

 WarOne wrote:
Who are GW investors really? I've seen the names of the organizations with foreign locations attached for contact, some these are people that do not have easy public information access.

4 investment funds and Kirby control the majority of shares. You are not going to have an easy time to contact any of them.

I can easily see a point in the near-ish (within 3-5 years) future where local shops elect to stop carrying GW product entirely just to get out of having to deal with their asinine business practices. As much as people may think that 40k and WHFB are the only legitimate big games in town, they're not. Kickstarter is driving up the variety in this hobby, and the internet makes it a lot easier for regional sensations to start picking up steam.

I'm not saying that GW is writing their own epitaph these days, but at the same time, I feel like they're shopping for a tombstone.

They are the only legitimate big games when it comes to fantasy and sci-fi wargaming, but probably not for long. WarmaHordes seems to be coming up fast, and there are other games, like Malifaux and Dust, that have the potential -- if nothing else than for the sexiness of their models.

The problem is that we, as gamers, and the FLGS are in a bind -- do we keep on giving our money to a company that is pretty constantly disappointing or offending us, because we're already invested so much, or do we cut our losses and move on?

Wrong thread. Ignore.

Matney X wrote:
They are the only legitimate big games when it comes to fantasy and sci-fi wargaming, but probably not for long. WarmaHordes seems to be coming up fast, and there are other games, like Malifaux and Dust, that have the potential -- if nothing else than for the sexiness of their models.

The problem is that we, as gamers, and the FLGS are in a bind -- do we keep on giving our money to a company that is pretty constantly disappointing or offending us, because we're already invested so much, or do we cut our losses and move on?

Warmachine (not warmahordes, just warmachine) is already bigger than warhammer fantasy. GW are still the biggest but we have already past the point of other companies becoming legitimately big.

As for the bind, the best thing to do at the moment is finish your current army, buying nothing direct, then stop buying GW. You can still play for a while until the next edition hits but that's still a couple of years for fantasy and 4 for 40k, by then you'll have a very clear idea of if you want to bother or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If the digital version was available in something other than iOS then maybe it'd be worthwhile, but until that happens the print edition would always be better IMO.

You sure you got the right thread there mate?

Too many windows open...

With the new rules against selling items without their original packing I am curious if people think it hurt one of the ways my flgs sells used models.

Basically the owner will sell your stuff on ebay, take a cut and you get the rest in store credit. This is a good service for people that dont have the time to deal with ebay or just do not want to. Because he has sold thousands of items and has such a high rating it is a good way to unload stuff without any hassle.

Anyway I am wondering if he will run afoul of GW's new policy because he sells a ton of used GW products this way.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Warmachine (not warmahordes, just warmachine) is already bigger than warhammer fantasy.

[citation needed].

Personally I think it's a shame, Fantasy is really an enjoyable game (at least until GW buggered it up last edition, I haven't played a lot since then). I don't want GW to die, I just want them to not be arses.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Warmachine (not warmahordes, just warmachine) is already bigger than warhammer fantasy.

[citation needed].

Personally I think it's a shame, Fantasy is really an enjoyable game (at least until GW buggered it up last edition, I haven't played a lot since then). I don't want GW to die, I just want them to not be arses.

In the US, through Independent Retailers.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24225.html

I had heard that Clix had actually topped 40K as well - but they are non-competing categories, and many of the sales their go to collectors of the given release or general collectors. There is also a rumor that goes around from time to time among store owners that the combined PP games beat 40K as well.

WFB in the US has never really been that strong of a seller. For whatever reason - it just doesn't have legs here.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Warmachine (not warmahordes, just warmachine) is already bigger than warhammer fantasy.

[citation needed].

Personally I think it's a shame, Fantasy is really an enjoyable game (at least until GW buggered it up last edition, I haven't played a lot since then). I don't want GW to die, I just want them to not be arses.

In the US, through Independent Retailers.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24225.html

I had heard that Clix had actually topped 40K as well - but they are non-competing categories, and many of the sales their go to collectors of the given release or general collectors. There is also a rumor that goes around from time to time among store owners that the combined PP games beat 40K as well.

WFB in the US has never really been that strong of a seller. For whatever reason - it just doesn't have legs here.

Oh thank god I've seen that link before but I could never have found it myself.

But yea, Fantasy is (sadly) not that big down here either. It was but apparently 8th drove a lot of people away, tourney's that used to get 100-120 people have stopped running or been forced to scale back because they started getting 20-30 people.

JWhex wrote:With the new rules against selling items without their original packing I am curious if people think it hurt one of the ways my flgs sells used models.

Basically the owner will sell your stuff on ebay, take a cut and you get the rest in store credit. This is a good service for people that dont have the time to deal with ebay or just do not want to. Because he has sold thousands of items and has such a high rating it is a good way to unload stuff without any hassle.

Anyway I am wondering if he will run afoul of GW's new policy because he sells a ton of used GW products this way.

Likely, yes. I suspect GW takes the same attitude towards the secondhand mini market the way video game manufacturers take toward used game stores: overt hostility.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Warmachine (not warmahordes, just warmachine) is already bigger than warhammer fantasy.

[citation needed].

Personally I think it's a shame, Fantasy is really an enjoyable game (at least until GW buggered it up last edition, I haven't played a lot since then). I don't want GW to die, I just want them to not be arses.

In the US, through Independent Retailers.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24225.html

I had heard that Clix had actually topped 40K as well - but they are non-competing categories, and many of the sales their go to collectors of the given release or general collectors. There is also a rumor that goes around from time to time among store owners that the combined PP games beat 40K as well.

WFB in the US has never really been that strong of a seller. For whatever reason - it just doesn't have legs here.

I've always wondered about that stat....especially as often as it comes up on here. icv2 does release that, but I am not sure how accurate it is. Others use to do the same thing in the heyday of Warzone. (Industry Magazines Listing Warzone as #3 or #2 (also beating fantasy)) Unfortunately none of the "numbers" included the sales of GW trade or retail because they would never give that info out (at least in breakdown.) They used the distributor numbers, and since GW distributed most of its product itself, a lot of info was missing back then. If icv2 is getting #s from GW, then fine, but they would have to state it specifically instead of just "The charts are based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers."

Let's just say I was not surprised to find out that the real GW numbers were factors above the reported amounts in various "source magazines or reports" back then. When I went to work for GW I found out just how little Alliance did with fantasy and 40k. GW sold more paint than that a year. New Wave (one if not the first big internet discounter that eventually morphed into CMON) almost did/ or did do as much as the distributors a lot of the time. Maybe all of that has changed a lot (it was a long time ago - I'm old ) but from what I hear it hasn't changed THAT much.

Maybe that stat includes direct info from GW (though that would be a WILD departure from their normal reluctance and definitely a shift from when I worked there), but until you know it does it may not be giving the whole picture. If I'm wrong then fine, but you know what they say about statistics, right? Its even more true if you only have part of the numbers.....

Unfortunately a lot of the pricing issues we have may also be directly related to GW's fight against discounters as well

my prediction is they are moving towards cutting out everyone. If you want stuff you will need to buy it direct from them only at full price.

theyve already done this with forgeworld.

Edited by Mannahnin

Grinding an axe much?

Again with the off-topic ban?

I don't know, I mean. He had a point, even if it was a poor one, and off the topic of an off topic thread, in the off topic section of the forums.

Still, should have let the video there.

@kb305. Think that may be correct, eventually. Could be about the worse idea I ever heard. If they do it, then someone there has completely lost sight of what doorways bring you. However, they may feel like its the only way to control pricing and perceived value. This and pricing seem to be directly aimed at basically the same thing.

If they have to bring out the big stick a few times a year fine, but they may bring it to a point where they just pull it all and deal with no one....

So does this mean GW is being pro brick and mortar shops? if my choice is to buy from my FLGS or online directly from GW because I can't get a 30% discount then I will buy from my FLGS. It wasn't worth buying from my FLGs shop until this goes into effect. If I can't buy my GW stuff from someone at a substantial discount online then I'm just going to support my local shop.

boyd wrote:
So does this mean GW is being pro brick and mortar shops?

It means they're being pro their own B&M stores and their own website.

 azazel the cat wrote:

JWhex wrote:With the new rules against selling items without their original packing I am curious if people think it hurt one of the ways my flgs sells used models.

Basically the owner will sell your stuff on ebay, take a cut and you get the rest in store credit. This is a good service for people that dont have the time to deal with ebay or just do not want to. Because he has sold thousands of items and has such a high rating it is a good way to unload stuff without any hassle.

Anyway I am wondering if he will run afoul of GW's new policy because he sells a ton of used GW products this way.

Likely, yes. I suspect GW takes the same attitude towards the secondhand mini market the way video game manufacturers take toward used game stores: overt hostility.

The FLGS I play at does a, couple times a year "bitz bazaar". And they were concerned about whether this would violate the policy. Their rep told them no it would not. That's in MA, so I don't know if it's different elsewhere so take with a grain of salt. Also I don't know if that's even the same thing, or if you even believe what I say haha.

Chancetragedy wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

JWhex wrote:With the new rules against selling items without their original packing I am curious if people think it hurt one of the ways my flgs sells used models.

Basically the owner will sell your stuff on ebay, take a cut and you get the rest in store credit. This is a good service for people that dont have the time to deal with ebay or just do not want to. Because he has sold thousands of items and has such a high rating it is a good way to unload stuff without any hassle.

Anyway I am wondering if he will run afoul of GW's new policy because he sells a ton of used GW products this way.

Likely, yes. I suspect GW takes the same attitude towards the secondhand mini market the way video game manufacturers take toward used game stores: overt hostility.

The FLGS I play at does a, couple times a year "bitz bazaar". And they were concerned about whether this would violate the policy. Their rep told them no it would not. That's in MA, so I don't know if it's different elsewhere so take with a grain of salt. Also I don't know if that's even the same thing, or if you even believe what I say haha.

I think reps aren't the most trustworthy people, all the way back with the flyers compendium (so you know, a month ago or whatever, hey maybe GW are pulling all this so that all their dumb policies are so close together no one has time to really focus on any one of them) the reps were saying FLGS can get their hands on them. If the store is selling anything out of it's original packaging they would be in violation of this.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

boyd wrote:
So does this mean GW is being pro brick and mortar shops?

It means they're being pro their own B&M stores and their own website.

Yeah, GW would absolutely love it if you bought everything online from them directly. It's almost all profit because they have a much lower overhead. Hell I bet they would prefer you bought online from them instead of going to their own B&M stores.

They're perfectly fine with online sales, just as long as they get all the money from them. Everyone else is "free-loading".

 Sidstyler wrote:
Hell I bet they would prefer you bought online from them instead of going to their own B&M stores

I'm happy to do that, just as soon as they reinstitute realistic shipping costs on the UK website.

It's pro brick and mortar.....as in independents without a webstore. Everything GW's been doing has been to protect the 'perceived' quality of GW products as well as independent retailers of the non-webstore variety.

Like pretty much EVERY other company in the world GW only wants it's product sold in it's packaging when new, the packaging they spent a good deal of time and money on to look appealing. Most companies would take a dim view of trade partners opening their product up, parting it out in cheap looking plastic baggies and then selling it piecemeal.

EDIT: It's flat rate shipping that's free over a certain dollar amount, that's on whoever their delivery deal is with.

Orktavius wrote:
It's pro brick and mortar.....as in independents without a webstore.

Yup, limiting how much of the range they can sell, and removing their ability to compete with online bits Sellers is clearly in the retailer's best interests. Somehow.

EDIT: It's flat rate shipping that's free over a certain dollar amount, that's on whoever their delivery deal is with.

Not on international purchases.

boyd wrote:
So does this mean GW is being pro brick and mortar shops? if my choice is to buy from my FLGS or online directly from GW because I can't get a 30% discount then I will buy from my FLGS. It wasn't worth buying from my FLGs shop until this goes into effect. If I can't buy my GW stuff from someone at a substantial discount online then I'm just going to support my local shop.

I'd say that basically yes (note a few retailers are actually pretty happy with some of this - I know my FLGS is) I do think that is what GW is trying to do (whether it works or not). If GW could legally just tell all retailers in US - no discounts, and limited sales, then I know they would have done so when I worked there. We even looked into it, and could not. I think Battlefront does the 10% thing in EU, so it must be legal there?

Right now especially they need B&M stores. They also want to maintain a value to their product. And no I am not trying to start a true price debate, or say what the value is - I just think that is GW's Perception. They want the doorways, but if the retailers online that discount have really gotten that big then I can see them doing all sorts of things to change it. I think a lot of the new pricing in US has a lot to do with it for the last few years. Note at 20-25% off a lot of things are close to the retail price that they were at a few years ago. They had a similar problem in England a long time ago and just changed the discount they gave to stores. Basically if their retail customers won't take the money - GW would. GW could also have problems in US because they are supposed to give same terms to everyone. They could not stop selling to a lot of the stores due to discounting without also not selling to stores like Showcase.

Yes, GW loves money, and would love to sell online to you, but for any long term concept they need doorways for people to discover it. In UK, clubs and groups do this, in the US it tends to be FLGSs. The discounters are not representing their local game market, they are selling nationally (or even internationally) and when stores start closing because all of their players go to the discounters then GW loses the doorways. They are hurting other retailers, and lots of non-discounting game stores have lost sales or slowly let their stock dwindle because they could not compete with the discount. Remember lots of game stores are doing well if they have a true profit between 7-10% and a whole lot of stores would be thrilled with that amount!

Market pressures have changed a lot of things (proliferation of games due to costs, the havoc the discounters have caused to the FLGS network, and more) but GW's true advantage is that you can go almost everywhere and get a game in. Lots of small market games or companies don't have that. At my FLGS you can basically play 40k, WFB, Warmahordes, Magic, or board games. Even with all of the new mini games out there, except for an occasional demo or tryout you don't see the others played too much. Even a lot of the board games are played for a while, but then lare left as they play the new "hot one". X-wing is an example. It can be a great game for you, and they sold a bunch at the release. but there have only been a few games since in the store, and those guys are all back to playing in the WFB or 40k tournies.

Also, I would like to say that there is just a lot of what goes on at GW now that bothers me. I'd like them to do well so I can have people to play. I definitely don't like some of the things they do though.

@Insaniak - yes Direct only ticks me off because I like to support my friends store. It is one of the BIG things I think they do wrong. but limiting it so a store could service its local area only would be no problem to me. I also predict if we ever hear of a store being shut down from trade it will be due to bits online in some way (ebay or a site). I bet they won't try to squash "bits nights" or swaps from stores. Unless/Until they start stocking it as bits or advertising I bet you won't hear anything about it. Of course if it is online, I bet they go after it.

Orktavius wrote:
It's pro brick and mortar.....as in independents without a webstore. Everything GW's been doing has been to protect the 'perceived' quality of GW products as well as independent retailers of the non-webstore variety.

They really aren't, that is their excuse but the guys up top refer to their products as toys. They are using it as an excuse to try and choke off online stores. After that they will try and shut down FLGSs and replace them with their own. They have already done this in the UK and plan to open 800 more stores in the US, so this is not speculation. They see those trade sales to FLGSs made at only 55% of RRP and think 'hey, they are freeloading off us, we would be making twice as much if those people bought direct from us'. (And yes freeloading is a word they have used to describe online stores in the past despite the fact GW no longer support the community any more with their 1 man stores and lack of tourney support.)

As for other companies not letting people sell parts of a their products, no they don't but car companies don't sure anyone trying to make replacement parts.

Orktavius 514316 5427335 null wrote:Most companies would take a dim view of trade partners opening their product up, parting it out in cheap looking plastic baggies and then selling it piecemeal.

I've been trying to think of other companies where this would even be an issue. Other than Lego, the only others that I can think of where there would be enough call for retailers to consider doing this are for things like confectionery (where its most definitely not unusual for companies to buy in bulk and sell in unlabelled packaging) and drinks ( where the individual units are specifically designed for that purpose).

Plus what does an expensive plastic baggie look like?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Plus what does an expensive plastic baggie look like?

Like this.

Seriously, $0.49ea? wtf Staples.

Orktavius wrote:
It's pro brick and mortar.....as in independents without a webstore. Everything GW's been doing has been to protect the 'perceived' quality of GW products as well as independent retailers of the non-webstore variety.

Like pretty much EVERY other company in the world GW only wants it's product sold in it's packaging when new, the packaging they spent a good deal of time and money on to look appealing. Most companies would take a dim view of trade partners opening their product up, parting it out in cheap looking plastic baggies and then selling it piecemeal.

EDIT: It's flat rate shipping that's free over a certain dollar amount, that's on whoever their delivery deal is with.

Except that GW policies inhibit the support for stores, since the vast majority of their garbage is going into direct only, limiting, I believe, stores to $500.00 a month for direct only products. Given that it's a tiny drop in the pond for all of the things that are in there demanded by customers, B&M stores can't even sell to their own customers, because they are bound by the terms of the agreement to not be able to supply the items in question. This is hurting independents for two reasons. First, people are turning to GW instead, which is bullgak, because the FLGS provides gaming space, to which the players now don't pay rent for, and second, if there is no GW there, then it's just turning the customer out of any purchase. The store experience is the most compulsive and most rewarding with the interpersonal exchange. It does take some patience to wait for the things you ordered online.... And now with MWG shut down, and a flashy new train station, visits to sentry box will be more frequent.

As to the packaging... I find that a weak argument, specifically because of the targetted market. Bits dealers are not aiming at the new people entering the hobby or starting 40k, they are looking for the entrenched people who need those extra bits to finish a conversion, or get the entire kit magnetized. It's implicit that if I am looking for bits, that I'm already familiar with the brand. Why is it I can call up any manufacturer and ask for a replacement part for x. It's like badger or iawata getting up on your ass for asking about a replacement part, and them insisting that you cough up another $200 for another airbrush, instead of replacing just the part. The point? If I am already familiar with the brand and looking for specific bits only, then I already know what I'm looking for, and don't need the packaging.

Really, this bits dealing thing is only shooting themselves in the foot. Tird pary bits don't look the same as GW stuff, they're more expensive, but if all I really need are 3 pairs of legs..... I'll cough up the $10-$15 for the overpriced 3rd party bits, rather than cough up $50-$60 and end up with more plastic than I know what to do with or where to store.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Plus what does an expensive plastic baggie look like?

Like this.

Seriously, $0.49ea? wtf Staples.

Lol Emily if you need a good bag vendor pm me. I get them by the thousand for under $4.

 Empchild wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Plus what does an expensive plastic baggie look like?

Like this.

Seriously, $0.49ea? wtf Staples.

Lol Emily if you need a good bag vendor pm me. I get them by the thousand for under $4.

I don't buy from Staples, but I'll definitely listen about a cheaper source

 poda_t wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
It's pro brick and mortar.....as in independents without a webstore. Everything GW's been doing has been to protect the 'perceived' quality of GW products as well as independent retailers of the non-webstore variety.

Like pretty much EVERY other company in the world GW only wants it's product sold in it's packaging when new, the packaging they spent a good deal of time and money on to look appealing. Most companies would take a dim view of trade partners opening their product up, parting it out in cheap looking plastic baggies and then selling it piecemeal.

EDIT: It's flat rate shipping that's free over a certain dollar amount, that's on whoever their delivery deal is with.

Except that GW policies inhibit the support for stores, since the vast majority of their garbage is going into direct only, limiting, I believe, stores to $500.00 a month for direct only products. Given that it's a tiny drop in the pond for all of the things that are in there demanded by customers, B&M stores can't even sell to their own customers, because they are bound by the terms of the agreement to not be able to supply the items in question. This is hurting independents for two reasons. First, people are turning to GW instead, which is bullgak, because the FLGS provides gaming space, to which the players now don't pay rent for, and second, if there is no GW there, then it's just turning the customer out of any purchase. The store experience is the most compulsive and most rewarding with the interpersonal exchange. It does take some patience to wait for the things you ordered online.... And now with MWG shut down, and a flashy new train station, visits to sentry box will be more frequent.

As to the packaging... I find that a weak argument, specifically because of the targetted market. Bits dealers are not aiming at the new people entering the hobby or starting 40k, they are looking for the entrenched people who need those extra bits to finish a conversion, or get the entire kit magnetized. It's implicit that if I am looking for bits, that I'm already familiar with the brand. Why is it I can call up any manufacturer and ask for a replacement part for x. It's like badger or iawata getting up on your ass for asking about a replacement part, and them insisting that you cough up another $200 for another airbrush, instead of replacing just the part. The point? If I am already familiar with the brand and looking for specific bits only, then I already know what I'm looking for, and don't need the packaging.

Really, this bits dealing thing is only shooting themselves in the foot. Tird pary bits don't look the same as GW stuff, they're more expensive, but if all I really need are 3 pairs of legs..... I'll cough up the $10-$15 for the overpriced 3rd party bits, rather than cough up $50-$60 and end up with more plastic than I know what to do with or where to store.

The direct only argument for the most part is total BS...it's a damn smokescreen that people like to throw about as if all those products are hot selling merchandise that the hobby community wants a non-stop stock of at every store. Nearly EVERYTHING on the direct order list is old metal models, single characters or slow selling stock. My local GW has splash releases from the beastmen launch that are still hanging around despite being direct order now. Hell my local GW store doesn't even do $500 a month worth of that stuff. Will that cause problems for some retailers who are doing more? Unfortunately their may be a few but I seriously doubt that anyone other than the online discounters are seriously moving around any real amount of the direct only product. The reason that product is direct only is to limit how much wasted space GW's warehouse has to spend holding onto product that sells slowly. Many of you might not know or understand it but product that sits on a shelf without selling eventually winds up costing a retailer money in the opportunity cost of not putting product that sells faster on those same shelves. It's part of the reason you see clothing stores have massive clearance sales, not just because the clothes aren't right for the season, but because keeping them on the racks instead of bringing in new clothes will cost them thousands of dollars in the end.

I know death from the skies is about to be brought up so I'll deal with that now....that book is almost entirely a reprint of WD articles and the crusade of fire campaign book. The only changes are a line on the flyboss rules, the point cost of the storm talon and the storm raven being added to C:SM and black templar books. Meaning the whole book will be useless relatively soon when those books are redone. Do I think they should have sent some to independent retailers? Sure, but they don't even carry it in their own B&M stores which says a lot about how much of it they think they will sell in the end.

In regards to bits being a targeted market, I won't disagree with that, but since just about every online retailer that sells bits ALSO sells full kits and has them displayed on their website in the same place they display the full kit it becomes a problem. If I showed one hundred people a box of Tactical marines and a plastic baggy with the same sprues in it and asked them which they would pay more for the majority would choose the boxed models for no other reason than it looks far more professional. Just taking it out of the packaging alone devalues the product and makes it appear to be no better than a dollar store bag of green army men to people who aren't in the hobby or have just entered it. Basically, bitz sellers run counter to GW's marketing strategy of a premium product for a premium price. It's not the e-bay bitz sellers that are a problem it's stores like the warstore or mini wargaming that GW has issue with as they basically put the cheap bits in a bag right next to the regular GW kits which ruins the perception.

Orktavius wrote:
The direct only argument for the most part is total BS...it's a damn smokescreen that people like to throw about as if all those products are hot selling merchandise that the hobby community wants a non-stop stock of at every store. Nearly EVERYTHING on the direct order list is old metal models, single characters or slow selling stock.

Yeah, it's not like anyone building an army needs character models...

No one needs those conversion kits either. I mean, they sell Thousand Sons in plastic, right? Or all those specialist games. No one plays Blood Bowl anymore, right?

Oh, wait....

Orktavius wrote:
The direct only argument for the most part is total BS...it's a damn smokescreen that people like to throw about as if all those products are hot selling merchandise that the hobby community wants a non-stop stock of at every store. Nearly EVERYTHING on the direct order list is old metal models, single characters or slow selling stock.

Yeah, its almost like we didn't have a FLGS owner come out just last week saying that he sold thousands of dollars of direct only and that that measure hurt his business and his ability to supply his customers in a really big way...

PhantomViper wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
The direct only argument for the most part is total BS...it's a damn smokescreen that people like to throw about as if all those products are hot selling merchandise that the hobby community wants a non-stop stock of at every store. Nearly EVERYTHING on the direct order list is old metal models, single characters or slow selling stock.

Yeah, its almost like we didn't have a FLGS owner come out just last week saying that he sold thousands of dollars of direct only and that that measure hurt his business and his ability to supply his customers in a really big way...

yeah its only $5000 a month of lost sales... means nothing really..... .... ..... Or it was the straw that broke his stores back....

$5000 a month is more like a log than a Straw I would think.
This reminds me of when (iirc) Maelstrom said they were being limited to ordering 3 of any Finecast model per order, meaning that a single 'Nids player trying to buy a squad of Hiveguard would take up his week's order of that model.... gg, gw.

Not to mention what if your store is in a high population area. Now we have to fight each month to see who gets to order what we want. I ordered 3 kannons and it cost 100$. It's not like these items are cheep so that 500 dollars will get used up fast. Just because your flgs doesn't do that kind of business doesn't mean that others don't. You really should think before posting BS like that.

Wayshuba wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

xraytango wrote:
Just ordered bits from Warstore, help Neal out as much as we can guys!

I have a strong feeling that this new move by GW is directly aimed at him.

So was the shopping cart thing a few years back, apparently the warstore was pulling in more business then GW online and they had to crush it by claiming using their pictures and product codes violated their IP

That's legal?

No, it's not. Unless GW wants to mark all their images as copyrighted. In addition, as long as a site gives proper recognition to the copyright holder and is not reselling the image itself, it is all still legal.

However, it is against GW rules. So while you could get away with using their images given the above, they can also refuse to sell to you as a result of using their images. That is legal.

And therein lies the conundrum. Sure you could legally use their images. But they can then legally refuse to sell to you.

Just another case of GW wishing it was 1995 all over again.

I actually deal with copyright a lot in my profession (marketing graphic designer).

Their copyright applies to the Lore, story, and conceptual images of the models, and any photographs GW takes of said models. Their copyright does not extend to any photographs YOU take of their models - that copyright belongs to you as the photographer.

IGNORING THE TRADE AGREEMENT FOR A SEC - Everyone has to understand your rights as a consumer. GW isn't licensing their products to you. You own the physical object once you purchase it, and have the right do with it as you will. You do not own the CONCEPT of anything Warhammer / GW related to the mini you bought. This means you can destroy, sell, take out of circulation, photograph, you name it to the physical mini you bought.You cannot copy that mini, rebuild it, sell the copies etc because that infringes on their copyright.

Going back to ebay - nothing GW stomps their foot about can touch ebay - good luck to them on that. If an individual seller on ebay has a Trade Agreement? Depending on the contracted agreement, they can be found in breach and shut down from their contract. ebay doesn't have any part in that as the marketplace. If you use GW images for your ebay listing - then they can demand you remove the pics, but not shut down your sale. If you use your own photographs of minis - they can't touch you on that.