If you want the 'discount' retailers get to sell the product at or below MSRP... then you play by the terms of getting that discount. If you don't want to agree to the terms, you may purchase the product at 'retail' and then re-sell it however you want as you are bound by no contract.
If I go to 'COSTCO' and buy sodas and candybars, there is no agreement for me in regards to how I sell it. There is for COSTCO who has an agreement.
If I wanted the discount, I could contact a food distributor to 'stock' me but then I have to play by their rules and follow them.
This is not new and how the industry works. While GW may have funky rules which make it harder to sell their product... it is their product. If you don't like it, then you can buy it retail like everyone else and sell it however you wish with whatever mark up you need to stay profitable... or not sell it. Stores get into feuds about those terms all the time and then switch to a competing product. Coke/Pepsi have some crazy terms to get served those products down to what your employees can drink on their own time and sending spies to places to ask for coke knowing they serve pepsi to see if you clearly state 'we serve pepsi products'.
There is madness across all of the industries, most people are not tuned in to it like we are with Wargaming minis.
Forgive me if no one has mentioned this before, but this has been like this for years in the UK, trade account customers cannot sell bitz from the boxes they buy, suprising that it hasnt always been like this in the US or are people just picking up on this fact now?
As far as the paranoia goes, could be...I trust no one. However, I know of a couple people who frequent these message boards who send off an email once a month or more often which amounts to not much more than tattling. There is also a retailer who frequents Warseer who has made it his mission to report any violations of trade terms (or percieved violation). Would be nice if I were wrong, but generally that isnt human nature, especially in the environment that exists online.
You know Sean, previously I would have thought that was paranoia--until I read the CH lawsuit depositions.
On one hand, GW is probably putting out the most conversion friendly kits in its existence as a company. I can't honestly think of another miniatures company right now that is more open to potential conversion both within their IP and their plastic kits. It's easy for modelers to get an idea, buy some major kits, bits out his inspiration with other kits and build something interesting.
TBD wrote: It could be a very risky mistake by them considering the US is the place where other mini games seem to be on the rise much more than elsewhere in the world. If anything they could be playing right into the hands of Privateer Press etc.
Australia is a place where other mini games are on the rise quite a lot (or were on the rise and are now large). When I started collecting it was mostly 40k and Fantasy everywhere you went, these days I can get a game of other systems as easily if not easier than GW games and FLGSGW shelves are shrinking and other games are getting bigger. Doesn't stop GW being anti-consumer and pushing more people away in Oz and thinking it's fine. I understand GW want their consumers to think they're the only game in town... though I think they're stupid enough to actually believe it themselves.
MarkyMark wrote: Forgive me if no one has mentioned this before, but this has been like this for years in the UK, trade account customers cannot sell bitz from the boxes they buy, suprising that it hasnt always been like this in the US or are people just picking up on this fact now?
How can they prove that the stuff in consignment is from the store breaking open boxes though. It doesn't make since to me. Or can they just cancel accounts based on assumption?
MarkyMark wrote: Forgive me if no one has mentioned this before, but this has been like this for years in the UK, trade account customers cannot sell bitz from the boxes they buy, suprising that it hasnt always been like this in the US or are people just picking up on this fact now?
I don't really understand the "problem" GW is trying to solve by doing this.
If a bitz store is currently supplied directly from GW, it's pretty easy to get around it. Just establish a new LLC under a different name. Company 1 continues to buy from GW and sells to the new LLC with zero markup; it's just doing a pass through. LLC does business as a bitz store. Neither company would be breaking an agreement. Done right, GW would never know who the bitz store was getting their product from nor the "real" owners. Setting up an LLC is extremely cheap. So the only additional cost is a bit of accounting time; which isn't a deal breaker.
If the bitz store is not currently supplied by GW, then this changes nothing.
Either way, what possible benefit is there to GW to even try and stop bitz sales? They keep shouting how this is a Hobby after all.
So, I buy a box of DE Warriors and I want to make a unit of trueborn with blasters. There aren't enough blasters so I have four choices. 1. I can by 4 more boxes of warriors (stupid); 2. I can buy a few blasters online (not cheap, but certainly better than #1); 3. I can buy something that looks like blasters from another store; or 4. I can break out some modeling stuff, create a mold from the one I have and make my own.
Hell would freeze over before I did #1. If they want to stop #2 then I, and a lot of other modelers like me, will either do #3 or #4. Given that GW no longer supports any tournaments then #3 is viable whereas #4 just means I need to take a saturday afternoon and learn how to cast things.
clively wrote: If a bitz store is currently supplied directly from GW, it's pretty easy to get around it. Just establish a new LLC under a different name. Company 1 continues to buy from GW and sells to the new LLC with zero markup; it's just doing a pass through. LLC does business as a bitz store. Neither company would be breaking an agreement. Done right, GW would never know who the bitz store was getting their product from nor the "real" owners. Setting up an LLC is extremely cheap. So the only additional cost is a bit of accounting time; which isn't a deal breaker.
Also against their policys, trade account customers can only sell to user end customers, not for resale. Plus if they are found out and it wouldnt be that hard to do so, they will lose their GW trade account status, which could be the majority of their business.
That was the reason my FLGS said they wont do bitz sales, even though he has thousands of bitz left and that is how I know that this policy has been in force in the uk for some time
clively wrote: I don't really understand the "problem" GW is trying to solve by doing this.
If a bitz store is currently supplied directly from GW, it's pretty easy to get around it. Just establish a new LLC under a different name. Company 1 continues to buy from GW and sells to the new LLC with zero markup; it's just doing a pass through. LLC does business as a bitz store. Neither company would be breaking an agreement. Done right, GW would never know who the bitz store was getting their product from nor the "real" owners. Setting up an LLC is extremely cheap. So the only additional cost is a bit of accounting time; which isn't a deal breaker.
If the bitz store is not currently supplied by GW, then this changes nothing.
In one of the first pages of the agreement is a clause that specifically prohibits sale of GW product to non-consumers. You could not resell to an alternate corporate entity without violating the trade agreement.
Not saying that GW really has any way of finding you out, but if they did found out, you would, indeed, lose your trade account with GW.
clively wrote: If a bitz store is currently supplied directly from GW, it's pretty easy to get around it. Just establish a new LLC under a different name. Company 1 continues to buy from GW and sells to the new LLC with zero markup; it's just doing a pass through. LLC does business as a bitz store. Neither company would be breaking an agreement. Done right, GW would never know who the bitz store was getting their product from nor the "real" owners. Setting up an LLC is extremely cheap. So the only additional cost is a bit of accounting time; which isn't a deal breaker.
Also against their policys, trade account customers can only sell to user end customers, not for resale. Plus if they are found out and it wouldnt be that hard to do so, they will lose their GW trade account status, which could be the majority of their business.
That was the reason my FLGS said they wont do bitz sales, even though he has thousands of bitz left and that is how I know that this policy has been in force in the uk for some time
Ahh, didn't know that there was an exclusion here. Sneaky.. I therefore withdraw my statements as anything but an obviously uneducated opinion. Still don't understand why they would even bother though.
Not saying that GW really has any way of finding you out, but if they did found out, you would, indeed, lose your trade account with GW.
And some people have issues with knowingly commiting fraud, which setting up a dummy company and selling to yourself to circumvent a trade agreement you entered into would be. There is a difference between some dude off the street randomly buying 1000$ of product a week and you knowingly buying 1000$ of product a week to turn around and sell to your own company or your spouses' company.
The risk simply is too high to do for many owners. And if GW suspects, they can terminate the agreement even if you legally made your LLC. As long as they are not cutting you off for being a protected class and the contract has such 'termination clauses', there probably is nothing you can do about it.
Customers basically sit back and say 'yeah store owners, commit fraud and risk your livelihood so I can get cheap bitz please, they will never know.' That is never a good recipe for someone who runs a business.
(I am not saying GW's policy is good/bad, just saying it is not reasonable or realistic for businesses to actively circumvent or commit fraud when it comes to commercial trade agreements or contracts. The reward for the risk simply isn't there especially if GW is a substantial part off your revenue stream. If you can't survive for 6th months without selling GW product, then the risk is way too much to even consider doing. For customers to ask or even demand shops do such steps to circumvent agreements is entitled arrogance as there is zero risk for the consumer. If one person gets nailed, the customer just moves to the next retailer. If a retailer wishes to circumvent the policy with these ideas, then it should be his choice to risk it and then he has only himself to blame should he get caught and invalidate his trade agreement and lose his ability to make income.)
Soooo.. the leg I'm missing for one of the bloodletters i just bought (the box set was missing a leg when i opened it) requires me to buy a whole new box of Bloodletters?.... No, GW.... just... No.
Bellzo wrote: Soooo.. the leg I'm missing for one of the bloodletters i just bought (the box set was missing a leg when i opened it) requires me to buy a whole new box of Bloodletters?.... No, GW.... just... No.
No, you call GW Customer Service and they replace it. Of all GW's problems, Customer Service is not one of them.
Bellzo wrote: Soooo.. the leg I'm missing for one of the bloodletters i just bought (the box set was missing a leg when i opened it) requires me to buy a whole new box of Bloodletters?.... No, GW.... just... No.
Actually GW is pretty decent about getting you the pieces that are missing from a box
Bellzo wrote: Soooo.. the leg I'm missing for one of the bloodletters i just bought (the box set was missing a leg when i opened it) requires me to buy a whole new box of Bloodletters?.... No, GW.... just... No.
No, Bellzo. It requires you to call or email GW's customer service.
Bellzo wrote: Soooo.. the leg I'm missing for one of the bloodletters i just bought (the box set was missing a leg when i opened it) requires me to buy a whole new box of Bloodletters?.... No, GW.... just... No.
Bring the box back.... their agreements don't invalidate your statutory rights.
In the EU the kit is not sold as advertised, that entitles you to a refund, a replacement or a repair. So they must do the first two.
Anyone who has ever dealt with OEM computer components or wholesalers knows that this kind of thing has no real power. It's hilariously easy to launder the product in a way that GW cannot trace and sell bits on ebay anyway.
This seems a dumb move from GW if true. They know players like to convert. There is no use in restricting the profits of people who mean more people buy GW models to convert.
This would be just a plain stupid move.
Unless GW thinks that people are going to buy full kits just to have that one conversion piece. Not likely.
If they can't get them from bit stores people will just cast there own. Or people will continue to use bits store except that bit store that makes not a lot of money as a friendly GW re-seller will be making even less money as a disgruntled GW re-seller.
So this really can only be seen as a move against bit sellers but will likely have a negative effect on a whole as people will know not to buy GW kits because getting that one extra conversion part will be that bit harder (no pun intended).
Unless GW thinks that people are going to buy full kits just to have that one conversion piece. Not likely.
Actually thats exactly what they expect, I worked for them when the Bitz program ended and we were clearly told via email from up high to suggest buying the box you need, even if for one part.
Well I guess this greenlights Chinese recasters to go into overdrive. People may have to put up with longer lead times on shipping but we will still be able to get the bits they want for conversions, they just won't have been produced by GW.
Unless GW thinks that people are going to buy full kits just to have that one conversion piece. Not likely.
Actually thats exactly what they expect, I worked for them when the Bitz program ended and we were clearly told via email from up high to suggest buying the box you need, even if for one part.
Actually I was being flippant, i'm pretty sure that is what GW expects and hopes for. This is probably why they are attacking the bits re-seller. Still my point stands this is unlikely to work, all it will do is restrict the profits of bits re-sellers and mean fewer kits are soled as bits for conversion are harder to come by or are more expensive as a result.
Why do people keep saying Bitz will go away when that is clearly not the case? There are plenty of bitz dealers who are not tradepartners and never have been.
There may be less dealers and/or prices will go up but they won't go away... And nothing justifies recasting... If you don't want to pay for a product then 'go without'. There will be legal bitz sellers still and even more legal 3rd party makers. There is no need to resort to illegal recasting.
nkelsch wrote: Why do people keep saying Bitz will go away when that is clearly not the case? There are plenty of bitz dealers who are not tradepartners and never have been.
There may be less dealers and/or prices will go up but they won't go away... And nothing justifies recasting... If you don't want to pay for a product then 'go without'. There will be legal bitz sellers still and even more legal 3rd party makers. There is no need to resort to illegal recasting.
I don't want to have to resort to illegal recasting either but I don't want to see GW attacking the little guy either especially when he is actually making good reason for people to continue to buy GW products, in this case i'd actually be in favor of GW welcoming bits sellers to become GW partners and gain the benefits many retailers get, anything to allow more open trade that promotes the product into the hands of more gamers IMO.
Without the sellers GW is just cutting into itself here.
Not saying GW isn't hurting themselves, but running to chinese recasters in the name of 'supporting the little guy' who is hurt by this policy doesn't mesh for me. I think there are consumers who don't care about businesses competing fairly in the market and just want cheap or free products regardless who it hurts.
There will still be legal bitz dealers and 3rd party companies even with this policy. The market will adjust having to cut and sell bitz off of a higher retail base price. With the increase in bitz prices, there may be more market for 3rd parties making more conversion bitz and not just top sellers like weapons. The market adapts when everyone plays by the rules. Running to recasters isn't the solution and helps no one.
I don't thinking anyone is running to recasters to support the little guy, anyone that thinks that would be a fool. However history shows whenever you clamp down on the legal trade for a product it opens the door unscrupulous types to try and take advantage. If bit sellers have to purchase kits at a higher cost be it smaller discount or retail which they pass onto the consumer , then the profit opportunity increases for recasters and makes it more attractive for them to chance their arm in the market place. Only a person of the most restricted mental stature would believe that this will not happen. Legal channels of operation at a reasonable price actually starves the market for recasters. It is both good for the consumer as they get the product they want at a reasonable price and its good for the retailer as there is no market vacuum for the unscrupulous to exploit.
Plus, I don't see how Chinese recasters would "fill" the void. The cost per bit are relatively low and the only recasters out there focus on high end items like knockoffs of Forge World and other boutique miniature lines.
Having just recently bought some bits for a project, I don't think it will be too hard to hide a bitz shop. The stores I follow only have 1 or 2 boxes worth of bits sets normally. Horde O' Bits is the only one I saw that usually had more and their more recent listings are fairly low.
There will still be legal bitz dealers and 3rd party companies even with this policy. The market will adjust having to cut and sell bitz off of a higher retail base price. With the increase in bitz prices, there may be more market for 3rd parties making more conversion bitz and not just top sellers like weapons. The market adapts when everyone plays by the rules. Running to recasters isn't the solution and helps no one.
There will be no 'legal' bits dealers...except maybe in Australia, as I dont think I have found trade terms for them yet.
By legal, I mean contractually legal retailers. The current terms for North America and Europe restrict the sale of products from a retailer to another business or from a distributor to a company who parts the kits out. While it wouldnt be a crime, it would be a violation of the contract, and as with most things...ignorance is not an excuse, so just because they didn't know the customer was a bits dealer, it wont nescessarily insulate them against the penalty in the contract.
You still will have individuals who might sell off leftovers from kits that they bought...but most of those will have been picked over for the good stuff, and getting a whole armies worth of bits will be difficult.
Of course, you could be advocating people use grey market goods from people who continue to do business...but that puts the various suppliers at risk to loose their trade contract with GW which could well hurt their livelihood. In any case, all bits purchased after June 15th of this year will be shady at best, or flaunting the contract itself at worst. Considering contracts are what seperate us from anarchy...I would be more concerned about violating contracts as opposed to a Chinese guy...who may not even be breaking any laws in his own country.
The chinese guy isn't breaking any laws in his own country. In China IP is ignored.
You are breaking laws when you import his goods though, it's the reason you don't have cheap knockoff tv's flooding western markets, the copyright law is clear that importing them is a crime.
For personal use is a bit dodgy but iirc it is a crime but one with a low rate of prosecution.
To be fair, I'm not expecting much to change-I feel bad for anyone affected by this, but I just ordered bitz on eBay: no issue. Yeah, I think it's a dick move by GW that will make them look bad, but I don't see anyone who sells bitz actually being terribly affected by it. I could be seriously wrong: bad things MIGHT happen. Then again, it could be impossible to enforce, and everyone will ignore it. GW looks like a bunch of dicks, hurt themselves, and in a week nobody will care. That's actually what I'm expecting to see.
There will still be legal bitz dealers and 3rd party companies even with this policy. The market will adjust having to cut and sell bitz off of a higher retail base price. With the increase in bitz prices, there may be more market for 3rd parties making more conversion bitz and not just top sellers like weapons. The market adapts when everyone plays by the rules. Running to recasters isn't the solution and helps no one.
There will be no 'legal' bits dealers...except maybe in Australia, as I dont think I have found trade terms for them yet.
By legal, I mean contractually legal retailers. The current terms for North America and Europe restrict the sale of products from a retailer to another business or from a distributor to a company who parts the kits out. While it wouldnt be a crime, it would be a violation of the contract, and as with most things...ignorance is not an excuse, so just because they didn't know the customer was a bits dealer, it wont nescessarily insulate them against the penalty in the contract.
You still will have individuals who might sell off leftovers from kits that they bought...but most of those will have been picked over for the good stuff, and getting a whole armies worth of bits will be difficult.
Of course, you could be advocating people use grey market goods from people who continue to do business...but that puts the various suppliers at risk to loose their trade contract with GW which could well hurt their livelihood. In any case, all bits purchased after June 15th of this year will be shady at best, or flaunting the contract itself at worst. Considering contracts are what seperate us from anarchy...I would be more concerned about violating contracts as opposed to a Chinese guy...who may not even be breaking any laws in his own country.
So by your logic I will be a shady illegal distributor of bits....time for me to go pay off the local cops to tip me on a bust . Look plain and simple I am ignoring this from GW, come June 16th Battleroadhobbies.com will still be selling bits. Come june 16 2014 I will still be selling bits...do you get where I am heading with this. The way I view it is I provide a service for which the community wants and has a need and I am not going to snuff my customers because GW doesn't like that I am making money. The said thing is they actually make more money because of bits sellers. Ask the other vendors as shows I am at and they will tell you I jump there sales because people buy the bits from me then run over and buy more boxes to use the bits on. I think this is overall silly but it seems more Sean you are an advocate for GW and that's fine, and if someone wants to go tell on me that's fine too as I am adding more 3rd market companies to my store as well, and none of what we sell is recast.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: Well I guess this greenlights Chinese recasters to go into overdrive. People may have to put up with longer lead times on shipping but we will still be able to get the bits they want for conversions, they just won't have been produced by GW.
This is pretty much what I expect will happen if GW pushes much harder. Many recasters already branched out into plastic bits on top of the FW items they were already doing, and those bits are insanely low priced.
More parts in resin in the future I guess, because no GW, I will not spend $33 just to get 5 GK backpacks.
nkelsch wrote: Not saying GW isn't hurting themselves, but running to chinese recasters in the name of 'supporting the little guy' who is hurt by this policy doesn't mesh for me. I think there are consumers who don't care about businesses competing fairly in the market and just want cheap or free products regardless who it hurts.
I beg to differ, I think buyers do care more than ever how ethical the company behind the products acts and treats it's respective stakeholders and consumers, if anyone should realise this it should be GW. With all the legal business about attacking authors over the use of Space Marine, all the customer complaints and everything said here on dakka I would expect GW to realise this more than most but if this policy is true then it appears they have learned nothing. Maybe legal action against GW is the only way possibly to get them to see this or maybe they will never learn IDK???
All this shows is that people care and are willing to take action to defend themselves from GW. But what is doubly stupid about this is that the sellers ain't even hurting GW like I said they are most probably helping GW sales.
Simply non of those things needed to happen. Yeah companies do gak but did any of those things need to happen. Really? No the board members should have been the ones shot not the American union leaders.
I didn't know a lot of those things. I'll be thinking twice before using their services again as should you.
nkelsch wrote: Not saying GW isn't hurting themselves, but running to chinese recasters in the name of 'supporting the little guy' who is hurt by this policy doesn't mesh for me. I think there are consumers who don't care about businesses competing fairly in the market and just want cheap or free products regardless who it hurts.
I beg to differ, I think buyers do care more than ever how ethical the company behind the products acts and treats it's respective stakeholders and consumers, if anyone should realise this it should be GW. With all the legal business about attacking authors over the use of Space Marine, all the customer complaints and everything said here on dakka I would expect GW to realise this more than most but if this policy is true then it appears they have learned nothing. Maybe legal action against GW is the only way possibly to get them to see this or maybe they will never learn IDK???
All this shows is that people care and are willing to take action to defend themselves from GW. But what is doubly stupid about this is that the sellers ain't even hurting GW like I said they are most probably helping GW sales.
I'd rather give random Chinese recasters my money than a company who constantly strong arms small companies into folding even when they have no legal leg to stand on.
At this point the recasters are starting to look like Robin Hood. I'd rather help some poor guy in a resin shop make ends meet than give GW beans to count towards the next price hike. And if that means GW goes under and someone buys the IP, then good, because I"m sure about 7 billion other people could do a better job with that company.
(both the chemicals used to make it, and the risk from the dust when it's set)
and Chinese industrys lack of health/safety especially in 'fringe' occupations by buying from a recaster you may risk the health of 'poor' chinese workers
ceorron wrote: You make a poor argument, liturgies of blood.
Simply non of those things needed to happen. Yeah companies do gak but did any of those things need to happen. Really? No the board members should have been the ones shot not the American union leaders.
I didn't know a lot of those things. I'll be thinking twice before using their services again as should you.
If you want ethical products you have to pay a lot more and be very restrictive in who you buy from. If you want to play GW games make peace with their evil or just don't engage with them.
If you don't use a service or product because you're morally outraged by the company who provide it you'll be using very little.
The world is not black and white.
While you're right that GW won't be using children's bones to make the new tau range, I agree that chinese casting might not be up to the health and safety standards of the west.
There will still be legal bitz dealers and 3rd party companies even with this policy. The market will adjust having to cut and sell bitz off of a higher retail base price. With the increase in bitz prices, there may be more market for 3rd parties making more conversion bitz and not just top sellers like weapons. The market adapts when everyone plays by the rules. Running to recasters isn't the solution and helps no one.
There will be no 'legal' bits dealers...except maybe in Australia, as I dont think I have found trade terms for them yet.
By legal, I mean contractually legal retailers. The current terms for North America and Europe restrict the sale of products from a retailer to another business or from a distributor to a company who parts the kits out. While it wouldnt be a crime, it would be a violation of the contract, and as with most things...ignorance is not an excuse, so just because they didn't know the customer was a bits dealer, it wont nescessarily insulate them against the penalty in the contract.
You still will have individuals who might sell off leftovers from kits that they bought...but most of those will have been picked over for the good stuff, and getting a whole armies worth of bits will be difficult.
Of course, you could be advocating people use grey market goods from people who continue to do business...but that puts the various suppliers at risk to loose their trade contract with GW which could well hurt their livelihood. In any case, all bits purchased after June 15th of this year will be shady at best, or flaunting the contract itself at worst. Considering contracts are what seperate us from anarchy...I would be more concerned about violating contracts as opposed to a Chinese guy...who may not even be breaking any laws in his own country.
So by your logic I will be a shady illegal distributor of bits....time for me to go pay off the local cops to tip me on a bust . Look plain and simple I am ignoring this from GW, come June 16th Battleroadhobbies.com will still be selling bits. Come june 16 2014 I will still be selling bits...do you get where I am heading with this. The way I view it is I provide a service for which the community wants and has a need and I am not going to snuff my customers because GW doesn't like that I am making money. The said thing is they actually make more money because of bits sellers. Ask the other vendors as shows I am at and they will tell you I jump there sales because people buy the bits from me then run over and buy more boxes to use the bits on. I think this is overall silly but it seems more Sean you are an advocate for GW and that's fine, and if someone wants to go tell on me that's fine too as I am adding more 3rd market companies to my store as well, and none of what we sell is recast.
By any logic you would be a shady distributor of bits following the implementation of the new trade terms. Not criminally illegal, but in violation of the terms of the contract. It is quite clearly called out - any company who you (as a business) buy from in order to replenish your stocks is violating their trade terms...whether it is through a retailer, a distributor or some manner of middle men (which would be akin to plastic laundering I guess...but that actually does become somewhat of a crime due to the conspiracy to defraud aspect). While I think the terms are stupid, they are the trade terms and it puts your suppliers at risk of loosing their ability to stock and sell GW products.
Now, I am far from a GW advocate. Quite the contrary to be honest. I care little for their current art direction, their management, their price policies, their IP policies - or for that matter much else that they do. However, the notion that people like nkelsch seem to be pushing that nothing will change...and further seeming to miss the greater ramifications of these new terms is ridiculous. As the terms are written - there will be no more bits businesses...as businesses will have no way to restock without violating the contract. You might have certain things pop up on eBay from individuals who buy a kit for bits and then attempt to sell off the remainder - but that is far and removed from what exists now.
Do I actually think that will happen to that extent? No, I am sure you will still have individuals and companies like yourself who are able to remain stocked up through any number of methods. It becomes a grey market though, something which isn't as reliable as it once was...and not completely on the up and up.
What I do think should happen though is for people like yourself, Neal at the Warstore, whoever might be the talking head from Alliance and all the other distributors, retailers and other outlets to get together and push back. Write an open letter through trade publications like Game Trade and ICv2 to GW stating that you will refuse to do business with GW if they continue to implement these terms. Anything else though will just be a slow and purposeful path towards GW rolling out the 700-800 retail stores which they claim to want to open in the US and using the new terms to shut off the supply of goods to independent retailers as they go.
Again, might be a little bit of paranoia...but someone once said something along the lines of "First they came for the bits dealers, and I did not speak out because I was not a bits dealer..."
Why buy from a GW store, if you have a local store who sells GW products at a discount. The Warstore offers a discount to instore customers as well as those who buy over the phone. Same with other stores like Miniature Market and for that matter the vast majority of stores I have been to either have flat discounts or some form of loyalty program which allows for a discount.
Since most GW stores also have limited in store gaming potential (and more and more that is the trend for new stores as well) they will not have the draw of gaming either...
So, if they want to move into an area which has a thriving 40K/WFB community...they need to stifle their competition if they would like to actually be successful there. These new terms provide grounds for them to stop trade with the existing company under the guise of violating one of the clauses and allows them to avoid being sued under any number of fair trading laws.
ceorron wrote: You make a poor argument, liturgies of blood.
Simply non of those things needed to happen. Yeah companies do gak but did any of those things need to happen. Really? No the board members should have been the ones shot not the American union leaders.
I didn't know a lot of those things. I'll be thinking twice before using their services again as should you.
If you want ethical products you have to pay a lot more and be very restrictive in who you buy from. If you want to play GW games make peace with their evil or just don't engage with them. If you don't use a service or product because you're morally outraged by the company who provide it you'll be using very little.
The world is not black and white.
Sean while you're right that GW won't be using children's bones to make the new tau range, I agree that chinese casting might not be up to the health and safety standards of the west.
I never said the world was black or white, ethics are all about grey areas. More that I have an appreciation of the different shades and more than I'd (and others) would like to see GW has been appearing all the blacker recently.
But you have a skewed view, simply because somethings arn't black and white isn't an excuse and doesn't mean there isn't a line. What GW should do is at least make sure that it stay the right side of that line. There seems to be willful disregard of this, that is a worrying concern and just as worrying is that GW seems to be letting indicators pass apparently unnoticed.
You know we do lock people up you realise, the world is not a free for all, do anything you like affair.
Should a person be jailed if they commit a murder if there was possible motive, surely that isn't black or white either?
Right.....GW hates independents despite their entire retail setup being designed around the idea of recruiting new hobbyists and shuffling em on down the road to independents to play games/pick up product.
Surely there is NO other reasonable explanation as to why GW doesn't want their kits parted out by their independent retailers to be sold for more than the kits suggested retail price. Surely there are no bits sellers out consistently labeling product as 'damaged in shipping' just to bitz out the kit and get a free replacement from GW while selling off the kit piecemeal. That's OBVIOUSLY impossible as every independent retailer in the world are morally upstanding ethical individuals who would never think of ripping off their suppliers and customers right?
Orktavius wrote: Right.....GW hates independents despite their entire retail setup being designed around the idea of recruiting new hobbyists and shuffling em on down the road to independents to play games/pick up product.
They don’t want customers buying from the LGS. They want customers buying from them. From their perspective LGS’ are necessary but not wanted; something they have to deal with because in a land as huge as the US there’s no other way to get sufficient market penetration with their own stores alone.
You simply cannot be ignorant of the multiple stories of successful LGS’ and how they’re treated both before and after a GW store opens up nearby?
Orktavius wrote: Right.....GW hates independents despite their entire retail setup being designed around the idea of recruiting new hobbyists and shuffling em on down the road to independents to play games/pick up product.
Surely there is NO other reasonable explanation as to why GW doesn't want their kits parted out by their independent retailers to be sold for more than the kits suggested retail price. Surely there are no bits sellers out consistently labeling product as 'damaged in shipping' just to bitz out the kit and get a free replacement from GW while selling off the kit piecemeal. That's OBVIOUSLY impossible as every independent retailer in the world are morally upstanding ethical individuals who would never think of ripping off their suppliers and customers right?
Oh wait....
Ya when it's damaged you have to ship the whole thing back as a retailer but good shot on that one. Also they want more people to buy from them as HBMC said because they make more profit in doing so.
Rented Tritium wrote:Yeah, going to recasters sends the wrong message. It tells GW that you weren't a customer worth catering to anyway. Now, if chapterhouse et al want to make convenient heads and legs for scifi miniatures, I will be first in line to buy them.
On this point, while well intentioned , I think you are not 100% correct. The point with GW is that they really do not understand or care about their customers. They run a business and even with the Finecrap Fiasco and the economic turbulence - they make enough money to satisfy someone somewhere to keep their practices going.
The company does not handle criticism that well. People have told them (and thousands have whined about multitudes of issues) - getting rid of their Bits Department was not well received by the Customer base. So many years later they have still not re-established it. Probably will not until major issues in management. Point here is without some sort of metrics - in house counts to justify the Bits Department. "Sir we made 100K units of currency and 14% came from the bits department - this justifies keeping it open." Or "we have lost 20% of our customers - possible to recasters in the last year. Partial data - eBay monitoring etc. and some conjecture."
Please keep in mind my sampling/stats are totally examples - without something that indicates proof of sales going to recasters - GW does not care them much less the customers they are losing. My Second Masters Thesis dealt with Transnational Criminal Threats to the U.S. national interests and showed loss/damage/theft/proof of trillions of dollars in multiple areas of society and business (including INTL IP) the results showed apathy on the parts of businessmen and governments to address the issues unless their personal views/lives were directly impacted by criminals.
Because criminals (recasters) do not operate within countries that enforce laws, much less INTL IP laws, it is difficult to address the issues. By going to recasters - it send them the right message - keep doing this and you will make money, because there is a void in the free market system that you fill.
BTW - Like your Avatar.
liturgies of blood wrote:The chinese guy isn't breaking any laws in his own country. In China IP is ignored. You are breaking laws when you import his goods though, it's the reason you don't have cheap knockoff tv's flooding western markets, the copyright law is clear that importing them is a crime. For personal use is a bit dodgy but iirc it is a crime but one with a low rate of prosecution.
While Russia, China and other countries do not enforce (selectively enforce) or do not have INTL IP laws, or laws allow for minor modifications of products made there to encourage criminal activity. Depending on the country - counterfeits goods sold and mailed violate multiple countries laws - false paperwork/statements,etc. for both parties. Yes enforcement is very low - often because it is too much of a hassle to enforce.
China will not extradite its civilians to other countries even when there is overwhelming evidence of a crime. It is seen as a loss of sovereignty to do so. Instead they confiscate the goods, money and sometime toss the criminal into prison - where a better education and life are offered. Russia asks for proof beyond reasonable - and then will still refuse to extradite on grounds of - just because the citizen is Russian. Personal use is the hardest to prove and the hardest to deter. The easiest was to deter the crime is to make the items more readily available, thus cheaper than the cost to manufacture in the first place.
It is sad but some of the Russian and Chinese parts are better than the Forgeworld kits are. My Mother and Father-in-law (not Americans - live in the far east) have bought me GW/FW stuff made in China on thier trips there thinking thats where its made and its way cheaper than what I pay for it.
There are a few re-casters in France and Germany that are pretty good. I bought some bits from the sellers on Ebay - and they turned out to be fake - bright yellow/dark black non-FW Resin. Items were different from the pictures. Ebay does not care, its hard to prosecute a case with the USPS - if the second party is in Europe. Reason after reason....it drives honest people insane. I've never bought from a recaster more than once - that once being unaware/lied to by the seller. I've often cringed at the thought of getting the pieces I want from China - but I just can't do it. No matter how cheap - crime should be avoided whenever possible.
Hell I'd recast my own if I could do it for less time, money, resources to make the squads/units I want. Buy one real one, make the ones I want/need, but I'd be stuck with molds and other crap I don't need and I don't want to be a criminal so I won't do it.
What we need is a change in management for GW - but that's beyond the fans' control.
Why buy from a GW store, if you have a local store who sells GW products at a discount. The Warstore offers a discount to instore customers as well as those who buy over the phone. Same with other stores like Miniature Market and for that matter the vast majority of stores I have been to either have flat discounts or some form of loyalty program which allows for a discount.
Since most GW stores also have limited in store gaming potential (and more and more that is the trend for new stores as well) they will not have the draw of gaming either...
So, if they want to move into an area which has a thriving 40K/WFB community...they need to stifle their competition if they would like to actually be successful there. These new terms provide grounds for them to stop trade with the existing company under the guise of violating one of the clauses and allows them to avoid being sued under any number of fair trading laws.
Firstly I'd like to see you win a case on fair trade on this restriction but I don't think you would have a chance. They are not forming a monopoly as it's just like Apple, if they were selling anything other than their own goods exclusively you'd have a shot.
Secondly I don't think GW are worried about competition in the same way you put it.
My local GW caters to a different audience than the local pro-gaming groups who hang out in the FLGS and has a much better community vibe going in it. GW puts a lot of effort into customer service that I've never really seen in any other gaming store plus they do police their members behaviour and make it far friendlier than some other stores.
GW is far better at getting new players in young, they run family days, events for young painters etc, hell they even do birthday parties. I doubt they will be scared off by other stores.
They are not franchises and as such they can take a hit in some stores until they get established.
There was a 2nd GW in my city that was in the worst possible location for them and it kept going for 15 years as an unprofitable enterprise. GW can wait out other games stores.
If they don't have the same space as the guys running weekend tournaments they won't care as they don't do tournaments.
But you have a skewed view, simply because somethings arn't black and white isn't an excuse and doesn't mean there isn't a line. What GW should do is at least make sure that it stay the right side of that line. There seems to be willful disregard of this, that is my most worrying concern and just as worrying is that GW seems to be letting indicators pass apparently unnoticed.
You know we do lock people up you realise, the world is not a free for all, do anything you like affair.
Should a person be jailed if they commit a murder if there was possible motive, surely that isn't black or white either?
Murder? I'm talking about the scale of evil in corporate practices, this is NOTHING on what others do. GW have gotten more profitable as they get more business orientated, if you want to change this buy some stock and change the CEO. *Hint* he's the guy with the single largest stake.
Murder? I'm talking about the scale of evil in corporate practices, this is NOTHING on what others do. GW have gotten more profitable as they get more business orientated, if you want to change this buy some stock and change the CEO. *Hint* he's the guy with the single largest stake.
As for scales of evil. In the UK companies are considered by UK law to come under the same rules as people as well as a set of rules that also govern their practice but with my and your argument this is rather insignificant fact.
I have no doubt GW has got more profitable as it has got more business oriented, is this is good decision, i'm not going to repeat myself.
At this rate I won't need to change the CEO, the bad decisions of management there wont be a company left to buy the shares of. Yes GW needs new management, when it is going to get this IDK. Maybe Kirby could do with a more moral management adviser, someone altogether more attuned to the moral compass of the masses. Maybe then GW wont make so many PR blunders and can act in a way that is all the more tactful.
So your answer to get the guys that haven't changed their stance despite internet complaints and withholding business is to complain on the internet and withhold business?
The only way to change them is by the usual methods to change management in a company, buy shares and boot him out.
Sitting back and waiting until they flop to change won't work.
Yeah they are a company, so what? Is what they are doing illegal or is it just them being over enthusiastic in protecting themselves?
liturgies of blood wrote: Firstly I'd like to see you win a case on fair trade on this restriction but I don't think you would have a chance. They are not forming a monopoly as it's just like Apple, if they were selling anything other than their own goods exclusively you'd have a shot.
You are aware that fair dealing laws generally have little to do with monopolies...for that matter, most monopoly laws have little to do with actual, honest to goodness monopolies. Just ask Microsoft, they were knocked around for a few hundred million dollars because they had too much of the market share (but no where near a monopoly).
If you read the contract with a close eye for the proper words, you will see terms like "unilateral". That is a key word in most fair dealing statutes which are in place - so GW has it in their minds eye already that they may see suits brought on various fair dealing laws already. Winning them is actually pretty easy though, you would be surprised how many hundreds of those cases are filed each year and how many of them just pay off the plaintiff. Bigger ones, like those brought by governments/regulators are less common - but even there, if the suit is brought...they generally win it.
In this case, if GW were to simply stop trading with someone without cause...then they would loose the case. That is pretty well cut and dry. The unilateral action and a clause to give cause allows them to skirt that issue even if their ulterior motive is in fact to move their own store into town.
liturgies of blood wrote: Secondly I don't think GW are worried about competition in the same way you put it.
GW is terrified of competition. That is what is the heart of the no online stores (other than their own) clause. That is the heart of the no trading across boarders clause. That is the heart of the Australia embargo. They are terrified of competition, because they generally loose when they actually face competition.
liturgies of blood wrote: My local GW caters to a different audience than the local pro-gaming groups who hang out in the FLGS and has a much better community vibe going in it. GW puts a lot of effort into customer service that I've never really seen in any other gaming store plus they do police their members behaviour and make it far friendlier than some other stores.
Enjoy it while it lasts. Most GW stores are going to one man shows and removing game tables except for the purpose of running demo games to sell starter sets. GW is cutting their retail to the bone in an attempt to deal with competition from stores and if you are one of the few stores that still have gaming, it is likely not to last.
liturgies of blood wrote: There was a 2nd GW in my city that was in the worst possible location for them and it kept going for 15 years as an unprofitable enterprise. GW can wait out other games stores.
If they don't have the same space as the guys running weekend tournaments they won't care as they don't do tournaments.
They actually don't have the cash reserves that you might thing they do. Most of the locations get cut by the time their lease is up - which generally gives them a couple years tops. You can flip through the old White Dwarf magazines and watch the stores close just as fast as they open and get shuffled into back corners of side street strip malls all the time. Ireland is likely a lot like the UK in that they really do not have any significant competition from anyone...so keep that in mind as you opine as to the vastness of the rest of the world vis a vis GW retail policies.
Everyone uses clauses to limit parallel trade, I was talking about competition on the ground. I'll have to look into the lifetime of some of the GW stores.
There will still be legal bitz dealers and 3rd party companies even with this policy. The market will adjust having to cut and sell bitz off of a higher retail base price. With the increase in bitz prices, there may be more market for 3rd parties making more conversion bitz and not just top sellers like weapons. The market adapts when everyone plays by the rules. Running to recasters isn't the solution and helps no one.
There will be no 'legal' bits dealers...except maybe in Australia, as I dont think I have found trade terms for them yet.
By legal, I mean contractually legal retailers.
This is where we disagree.
I can walk into GW today, buy 5 dakkajets, take them home, cut them up and sell the pieces on eBay. When I buy something retail, it becomes my property and I can do what I wish with it. And I am a legal dealer be it a side-hobby, small home business or large scale. The issue is larger scale I go, the harder it may be to make it profitable.
On the flip side, Let's say I can no longer get the bitz I want. I can go to GW as a hobbyist and buy a full kit, take the few bitz I want and sell the rest on ebay potentially recouping my costs. Again, I would be a legal bitz dealer.
People who buy stuff retail are simply not under any trade agreement what so ever. I can see why someone would want to have a trade account because they can save a ton of money, but it doesn't mean bitz become illegal... simply trade partners and people who buy through distributors who exchange their rights for a discount of retail.
I didn't say nothing will change, but I don't think we will see everything go 100% away with ebay takedown notices and such. I can see bitz becoming more expensive, I can see kits which were a waste of effort for 3rd parties to make due to how plentiful the GW plastic bitz were suddenly be cost effective to make. I feel like the market will find the profitable path post-policy implementation.
As for retailers who intend to defraud their trade account agreement, that is on them to risk and potentially corner the market, or have their business cut off. That is on them to choose to do or not. I as a customer would never ask them to risk their livelihood for me. I also will not consider them a saint or doing charity work as if they were bringing free food to the hungry... it is a business and they are doing it for money.
I can walk into GW today, buy 5 dakkajets, take them home, cut them up and sell the pieces on eBay. When I buy something retail, it becomes my property and I can do what I wish with it. And I am a legal dealer be it a side-hobby, small home business or large scale. The issue is larger scale I go, the harder it may be to make it profitable.
You may disagree - but that does not change the terms of the contract. The person that sells you the kits to cut up and sell on eBay can not sell you the kits based on the terms of the agreement. Whether they sell them to you at full retail or at a discount. While you haven't entered into the agreement with GW...all sources that you might use have. If they do not know that you are in fact a bits dealer, and somehow GW finds out that they are the source of your bits...then they are potentially subject to having their trade account cancelled as by the vary nature of what you are doing...you are not an individual rather a business.
It is called out quite clearly in the contract - so...the end result is the same, no "legal" bit dealers after the date that the terms go into effect. None, there is no way that it can happen without violating the terms of the agreement. The individual bit dealers may not violate the term, but no one can sell to them without violating the terms.
I can walk into GW today, buy 5 dakkajets, take them home, cut them up and sell the pieces on eBay. When I buy something retail, it becomes my property and I can do what I wish with it. And I am a legal dealer be it a side-hobby, small home business or large scale. The issue is larger scale I go, the harder it may be to make it profitable.
You may disagree - but that does not change the terms of the contract. The person that sells you the kits to cut up and sell on eBay can not sell you the kits based on the terms of the agreement. Whether they sell them to you at full retail or at a discount. While you haven't entered into the agreement with GW...all sources that you might use have. If they do not know that you are in fact a bits dealer, and somehow GW finds out that they are the source of your bits...then they are potentially subject to having their trade account cancelled as by the vary nature of what you are doing...you are not an individual rather a business.
It is called out quite clearly in the contract - so...the end result is the same, no "legal" bit dealers after the date that the terms go into effect. None, there is no way that it can happen without violating the terms of the agreement. The individual bit dealers may not violate the term, but no one can sell to them without violating the terms.
I can buy directly from GW retail, and do whatever I want with the parts. Like I said... there is no such thing as a contract for a retail customer. I can re-sell my property in any form for whatever reason I choose. So there are legal bitz vendors. Bitz are not illegal... Just people using their trade discount to gain access to discounted models to cut up to bitz are.
Are you saying GW will refuse to sell me models at retail price if I walk into their store and hand them retail cash or that it is illegal for me to buy those models, cut them up and ebay the parts? Making blanket statements that all bitz on eBay will somehow be 'illegal' simply isn't true. People can always re-sell their personal property.
Sean_OBrien wrote: There will be no 'legal' bits dealers...except maybe in Australia, as I dont think I have found trade terms for them yet..
As I mentioned earlier, the rules about selling out of packaging have been in the Oz terms of trade since at least the 90s. Fairly sure the clause about only selling to customers was also in there back then.
I was the first plastic bits seller online. In Australia. With no trade account.
Putting the US on the same footing as the rest of the world will have minimal impact on the bits trade.
Anything else though will just be a slow and purposeful path towards GW rolling out the 700-800 retail stores which they claim to want to open in the US and using the new terms to shut off the supply of goods to independent retailers as they go.
I would be really interested in your source for this statement. I dont believe GW wants to open hundreds of new stores in the US. I seriously doubt they have the resources to open more than a few per year. Their stores cannot compete with local game stores that sell a diversity of products.
This may have been a grand pipe dream of GW at one time but their crummy little mall stores do not generate enough revenue and I believe they have closed quite a few of them.
JWhex wrote: I would be really interested in your source for this statement. I dont believe GW wants to open hundreds of new stores in the US. I seriously doubt they have the resources to open more than a few per year. Their stores cannot compete with local game stores that sell a diversity of products.
This may have been a grand pipe dream of GW at one time but their crummy little mall stores do not generate enough revenue and I believe they have closed quite a few of them.
It's from the GW Financial Statement a couple of years back, IIRC.
I can walk into GW today, buy 5 dakkajets, take them home, cut them up and sell the pieces on eBay. When I buy something retail, it becomes my property and I can do what I wish with it. And I am a legal dealer be it a side-hobby, small home business or large scale. The issue is larger scale I go, the harder it may be to make it profitable.
You may disagree - but that does not change the terms of the contract. The person that sells you the kits to cut up and sell on eBay can not sell you the kits based on the terms of the agreement. Whether they sell them to you at full retail or at a discount. While you haven't entered into the agreement with GW...all sources that you might use have. If they do not know that you are in fact a bits dealer, and somehow GW finds out that they are the source of your bits...then they are potentially subject to having their trade account cancelled as by the vary nature of what you are doing...you are not an individual rather a business.
It is called out quite clearly in the contract - so...the end result is the same, no "legal" bit dealers after the date that the terms go into effect. None, there is no way that it can happen without violating the terms of the agreement. The individual bit dealers may not violate the term, but no one can sell to them without violating the terms.
I can buy directly from GW retail, and do whatever I want with the parts. Like I said... there is no such thing as a contract for a retail customer. I can re-sell my property in any form for whatever reason I choose. So there are legal bitz vendors. Bitz are not illegal... Just people using their trade discount to gain access to discounted models to cut up to bitz are.
Are you saying GW will refuse to sell me models at retail price if I walk into their store and hand them retail cash or that it is illegal for me to buy those models, cut them up and ebay the parts? Making blanket statements that all bitz on eBay will somehow be 'illegal' simply isn't true. People can always re-sell their personal property.
Retailers are permitted to resell GAMES WORKSHOP products to Consumers only. Retailers are prohibited from reselling GAMES WORKSHOP products to other Retailers, distributors or any other non-Consumer customers.
An independent retailer is forbidden from selling to you if your intent is to resell the product as you would not be a consumer - but another business.
Sean_OBrien wrote: There will be no 'legal' bits dealers...except maybe in Australia, as I dont think I have found trade terms for them yet..
As I mentioned earlier, the rules about selling out of packaging have been in the Oz terms of trade since at least the 90s. Fairly sure the clause about only selling to customers was also in there back then.
I was the first plastic bits seller online. In Australia. With no trade account.
Putting the US on the same footing as the rest of the world will have minimal impact on the bits trade.
Yes and no. Like I said, I assume that many of the terms are part of their grander scheme to roll out 700-800 retail stores in North America. That is a lot of stores and would require them to be in direct competition with existing game stores, something which they do not handle well.
I do not think that the bits market will dry up over night - but it does change the nature of things. Because it is impossible for bits dealers to obtain stock without violating the terms of the trade agreement - it makes anyone they do purchase from a potential target. Personally - I wouldn't feel comfortable placing them in that sort of bind especially since the vast majority of their suppliers are aware of what existing bits dealers are doing (so claiming ignorance would be difficult). You will see many of them cease though, The Warstore's Battlewagon Bits for example will be gone. I am sure there are plenty of others as well who are either tied to a retail outlet or use a distributor to source their product.
Anything else though will just be a slow and purposeful path towards GW rolling out the 700-800 retail stores which they claim to want to open in the US and using the new terms to shut off the supply of goods to independent retailers as they go.
I would be really interested in your source for this statement. I dont believe GW wants to open hundreds of new stores in the US. I seriously doubt they have the resources to open more than a few per year. Their stores cannot compete with local game stores that sell a diversity of products.
This may have been a grand pipe dream of GW at one time but their crummy little mall stores do not generate enough revenue and I believe they have closed quite a few of them.
Actually it was a news article where Kirby was interviewed...probably the last 4 months or so. I will need to poke around to find the exact source though...unless someone else has it handy.
“North America is going very well,” said Mr Kirby. “We’re looking at 700-800 stores in the US in the extreme long term and we’ve got 80 at the moment with plans to open 1-20 stores per year.”
Sean_OBrien wrote: I do not think that the bits market will dry up over night - but it does change the nature of things. Because it is impossible for bits dealers to obtain stock without violating the terms of the trade agreement - it makes anyone they do purchase from a potential target.
Unless they're buying directly from GW, as I was for at least haf of my stock.
it would be interesting if GW tried to enact an end user license agreement where you may not transfer their product to another person. some software licenses are like that (at least some enterprise software, unsure of consumer software)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or in the case of ordering from GW web site, having a Terms and Conditions which you must agree to that outline that you may not resell the component parts of their kits.
judgedoug wrote: Or in the case of ordering from GW web site, having a Terms and Conditions which you must agree to that outline that you may not resell the component parts of their kits.
I really, really hope GW does not read these forums, because you know they will take that idea and run with it.
Anyway, GW can refuse to sell their product to anyone they wish for any reason they wish (within certain limits). I won't be surprised if GW has a database of names that are blackballed from purchasing from them (either GW stores or GW website).
Sean_OBrien wrote: I do not think that the bits market will dry up over night - but it does change the nature of things. Because it is impossible for bits dealers to obtain stock without violating the terms of the trade agreement - it makes anyone they do purchase from a potential target.
Unless they're buying directly from GW, as I was for at least haf of my stock.
Not as profitable, but doable.
But never the less this will effect the market. And it will raise the prices on Ebay and other places to a point that only the hardcore is going to convert using GW bits. The revenue streaming process continues.
Consumers are capable of reselling thier personal property.
And GW's website has no such terms... and GW stores have no such terms. I can buy from GW directly paying retail and I have breached no terms.
And the bitz seller is breaking no rules, has no contracts with GW and therefor is legal. Now retailers may not want to risk selling to them but that is a different issue. This really targets people using their MSRP discount to get cheap models, break them open and then sell the individual parts.
GW website terms of service:
4 Ownership of Products
4.1 You will become the owner of the Products when they have been delivered to you.
4.2 Once Products have been delivered to you they will be held at your risk and we will not be liable for their use, loss or destruction.
Looks like they become my property without strings attached and no obligation as soon as I buy them retail from their webstore. I have no contract and am not bound to any limits with what I do with the item once bought and delivered.
Unless, as stated previously, you sign a EULA everytime you make a purchase. I think it would be impossible to make that stick in a court, but I certainly don't have "spots" money or visibility to defend it.
nkelsch wrote: Consumers are capable of reselling thier personal property.
And GW's website has no such terms... and GW stores have no such terms. I can buy from GW directly paying retail and I have breached no terms.
And the bitz seller is breaking no rules, has no contracts with GW and therefor is legal. Now retailers may not want to risk selling to them but that is a different issue. This really targets people using their MSRP discount to get cheap models, break them open and then sell the individual parts.
GW website terms of service: 4 Ownership of Products 4.1 You will become the owner of the Products when they have been delivered to you. 4.2 Once Products have been delivered to you they will be held at your risk and we will not be liable for their use, loss or destruction.
Looks like they become my property without strings attached and no obligation as soon as I buy them retail from their webstore. I have no contract and am not bound to any limits with what I do with the item once bought and delivered.
So what is to stop Neal from making personal purchases from his store with his "employee" discount, then selling all of the bits on ebay as just Neal and not as some form of corporate entity?
As you say, he's not a retailer if he's selling as an individual. He's paying out of personal pocket, not company money.
And banning online sales does not help B&M stores, as many of those stores had online sales as part of their income. Nor will banning bits.
If I didn't already have a decent paying job, I might bother with buying everything at my regular 30% off and do bits on ebay myself. Alas, it's a lot of work for meh pay unless you can do the volume that HoB does.
And again, if HoB and others have to buy at 30% off instead of 40%, they'll just increase bits prices 10% to compensate, which is by and large not that much, and the world will continue.
I do find it funny that you keep saying "buy retail" when really no one in the US should be paying retail for anything other than perhaps finecast and other direct only items.
Also, there is no way that bits selling eats into GW sales. No one is buying a $50 box of termies just for 5 hammers and shields.
Aerethan wrote: So what is to stop Neal from making personal purchases from his store with his "employee" discount, then selling all of the bits on ebay as just Neal and not as some form of corporate entity?
Aside from the mess it would make of his taxes and business records, you mean?
Also, there is no way that bits selling eats into GW sales. No one is buying a $50 box of termies just for 5 hammers and shields.
But in my eyes this is not about what is or is not eating into GW sales. It is about the control of all current and potential revenue sources.
Bits are a revenue source. This is all about control. This action could have been done anytime since the end of 07 when they closed down the bits department. Why now? Because they need the money, by any means possible. It not only a war against their own customer base, it is war against the cottage industry.
Aerethan wrote: So what is to stop Neal from making personal purchases from his store with his "employee" discount, then selling all of the bits on ebay as just Neal and not as some form of corporate entity?
Aside from the mess it would make of his taxes and business records, you mean?
I didn't say he wouldn't have to work for it, but assuming he was willing to go thru it all...
Devils advocate.
It doesn't have to be Neal himself, any business could be selling GW for whatever markup they want really. I'm not aware of any trade terms that say LGS' have to charge msrp for GW products. There are a few brands out there (SKB cases being one, Apple being another) that specify to their retailers that they cannot discount those products beyond $X, which is usually 0. I'm not aware of GW having such terms, nor would I imagine any company accept them.
Aerethan wrote: I didn't say he wouldn't have to work for it, but assuming he was willing to go thru it all...
It's not a matter of 'working' for it. Unless you mean on the chain gang, when he goes to prison for tax fraud on account of running half of his business outside the actual business...
I don'thow big the market on re-casters is, but i think that this is more a boon for those small companies that make non-GW parts.
If getting parts from GW is difficult there are enough other paths to take using "non-space marine" arms, heads, legs etcetera
nkelsch wrote: Consumers are capable of reselling thier personal property.
And GW's website has no such terms... and GW stores have no such terms. I can buy from GW directly paying retail and I have breached no terms.
And the bitz seller is breaking no rules, has no contracts with GW and therefor is legal. Now retailers may not want to risk selling to them but that is a different issue. This really targets people using their MSRP discount to get cheap models, break them open and then sell the individual parts.
GW website terms of service:
4 Ownership of Products
4.1 You will become the owner of the Products when they have been delivered to you.
4.2 Once Products have been delivered to you they will be held at your risk and we will not be liable for their use, loss or destruction.
Looks like they become my property without strings attached and no obligation as soon as I buy them retail from their webstore. I have no contract and am not bound to any limits with what I do with the item once bought and delivered.
So what is to stop Neal from making personal purchases from his store with his "employee" discount, then selling all of the bits on ebay as just Neal and not as some form of corporate entity?
As you say, he's not a retailer if he's selling as an individual. He's paying out of personal pocket, not company money.
And banning online sales does not help B&M stores, as many of those stores had online sales as part of their income. Nor will banning bits.
If I didn't already have a decent paying job, I might bother with buying everything at my regular 30% off and do bits on ebay myself. Alas, it's a lot of work for meh pay unless you can do the volume that HoB does.
And again, if HoB and others have to buy at 30% off instead of 40%, they'll just increase bits prices 10% to compensate, which is by and large not that much, and the world will continue.
I do find it funny that you keep saying "buy retail" when really no one in the US should be paying retail for anything other than perhaps finecast and other direct only items.
Also, there is no way that bits selling eats into GW sales. No one is buying a $50 box of termies just for 5 hammers and shields.
you mean whats to stop him from doing it when/if GW find out that his company is supplying the models to him and he then resells them....
Companies cannot sell the models to someone who is going to on sell it or lose their trade account..
AntomanElven wrote: GW can't actually legally enforce this, the only thing they can do is decide to stop selling to the FLGS, which would be a stupid move for GW
AntomanElven wrote: GW can't actually legally enforce this, the only thing they can do is decide to stop selling to the FLGS, which would be a stupid move for GW
How is them not selling to the store GW not acting on their trade agreement?
ausYenLoWang wrote: Companies cannot sell the models to someone who is going to on sell it or lose their trade account..
Which is not possible really, otherwise every store will lose its trade account. People resell their products all the time for no other reason than they just don't want it anymore, which means the store that sold them the product is in violation - even GW stores.
It's a bs addition to their terms and conditions to scare away the bigger discount resellers, but it's not something that can be properly moderated at all.
AntomanElven wrote: GW can't actually legally enforce this, the only thing they can do is decide to stop selling to the FLGS, which would be a stupid move for GW
Stop selling to a couple of retailers who are known to on sell to bits retailers and all of a sudden other retailers would become much more wary of knowingly selling to bits vendors.
Of course I think it's a stupid move either way. I thought it was a stupid move when GW closed down their own bits selling, they lost a lot of my business when they did that.
The real use of the clause is if they find out that a store is supplying or running an ebay store that they can close that store's supply down and drive the bitz store out of business.
It's not for billy who needed a combi-melta and sold the rest of his sternguard kit off. It's for the big sellers.
liturgies of blood wrote: The real use of the clause is if they find out that a store is supplying or running an ebay store that they can close that store's supply down and drive the bitz store out of business.
It's not for billy who needed a combi-melta and sold the rest of his sternguard kit off. It's for the big sellers.
Yes, and little billy isn't a retailer, so it's fine to sell to little billy who then on sells to other people. But selling from a trade account to an actual retailer, that becomes where things get interesting. When someone comes and orders $2000 worth of miniatures every month from a retailer using a trade account, that retailer might think twice about supplying it if there's a chance they could lose their trade account by doing so.
Sure they can lean on a retailer if they sell me models at retail which I turn around and bit them out... But what will GW do if I buy them from GWs website or retail store?
nkelsch wrote: Sure they can lean on a retailer if they sell me models at retail which I turn around and bit them out... But what will GW do if I buy them from GWs website or retail store?
Does a paradox tear apart time and space?
Of course not, you're just paying 25-30% more (or even more if you previously had a deal with a retailer)
It remains to be seen if GW themselves will stop selling to people who order absurdly large amounts directly from them. Perhaps they will, perhaps they won't.
AntomanElven wrote: GW can't actually legally enforce this, the only thing they can do is decide to stop selling to the FLGS, which would be a stupid move for GW
Stop selling to a couple of retailers who are known to on sell to bits retailers and all of a sudden other retailers would become much more wary of knowingly selling to bits vendors.
Of course I think it's a stupid move either way. I thought it was a stupid move when GW closed down their own bits selling, they lost a lot of my business when they did that.
Assuming the stores go through a distributor instead of GW direct, then that's a stupid move as well. The most they could do is pull the distributors trade account, which would result in way too many lost sales for them to consider even trying it.
-Loki- wrote: Assuming the stores go through a distributor instead of GW direct, then that's a stupid move as well. The most they could do is pull the distributors trade account, which would result in way too many lost sales for them to consider even trying it.
I'm not convinced GW understand the concept of lost sales.
-Loki- wrote: Assuming the stores go through a distributor instead of GW direct, then that's a stupid move as well. The most they could do is pull the distributors trade account, which would result in way too many lost sales for them to consider even trying it.
I'm not convinced GW understand the concept of lost sales.
Or perhaps they understand the concept of everyone simply buying from them at full retail in order to reap maximum profits.
I don't understand what this achieves. GW don't offer a bits service in any form. Do they think that people needing five copies of one part will go out and buy five boxes of miniatures simply to fish out that single part? That won't happen.
GW won't supply bits themselves and try to shut down other retailers doing so, but then complain about third party manufacturers and recasters, which are the obvious consequence if them strangling off sources to get actual GW parts.
judgedoug wrote: Or in the case of ordering from GW web site, having a Terms and Conditions which you must agree to that outline that you may not resell the component parts of their kits.
I really, really hope GW does not read these forums, because you know they will take that idea and run with it.
Anyway, GW can refuse to sell their product to anyone they wish for any reason they wish (within certain limits). I won't be surprised if GW has a database of names that are blackballed from purchasing from them (either GW stores or GW website).
They could do so, but they still had no legal backup. Anyone can write a ToS if he wants to, but you are still bound to the country's laws.
Can we have a clear Yes / No on GW completely shutting down non-GW retailers?
@nkelsch the first thing that GW would probably do if they found individuals selling large volumes of bits on eBay (even if bought retail via a GW store) would be to get the local tax authorities to look into wether you had been correctly declaring income/sales tax where appropriate. Nothing worse than having the taxman breaking out his fine tooth comb.This is probably the most punitive action they could take, also would be very simple to get your details and a photo to place in GW stores to refuse you service. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Kroothawk wrote: Is Alliance Games distributing GW products now illegal?
No. The no B2B clause is for retailers. Neal may no longer be able to supply GW goods to retailers though, as I am not sure if the wholesale channel he has set up is a proper distributor, or just takes advantage of wholesale discounts.
I am really confused, especially now with the other threa closed...is this still about bitz only? The other thread mentioned sth. about GW completely shutting down selling to resellers.
nkelsch wrote: Sure they can lean on a retailer if they sell me models at retail which I turn around and bit them out... But what will GW do if I buy them from GWs website or retail store?
Does a paradox tear apart time and space?
Of course not, you're just paying 25-30% more (or even more if you previously had a deal with a retailer)
It remains to be seen if GW themselves will stop selling to people who order absurdly large amounts directly from them. Perhaps they will, perhaps they won't.
Likely they will...
The reasoning is that if you order 5 boxes of something like Devastators each month, it makes them $175. However, if you are parting those out it costs them $1255 from the people who buy one multi-melta gun or other weapon instead of a full box from them.
Now, a frequent refrain is that that is crazy...no way would anyone buy a full box for one weapon, but if you look at their calculous, they need less than 20% of the bits customers to buy the whole box to make up the difference in the loss to the high volume 'bits dealer customer'. Each box will have its own number, but I would not be surprised at all if they blacklisted retail customers who purchased more than a certain amount of an item through their retail arm as well.
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Sigvatr wrote: I am really confused, especially now with the other threa closed...is this still about bitz only? The other thread mentioned sth. about GW completely shutting down selling to resellers.
Bits is a primary concern...but not the only one. The new terms prohibit online sales in North America. Retailers can not sell online, and distributors can not supply retailers who sell online. This is new for Canada AFAIK, and will shut off the supply for a few US dealers who operated cart based stores but were supplied through distributors.
Retailers can also not part out kits. That is the bits ban.
Retailers can also not sell to other businesses. This impacts some bits dealers, as well as a few painting services who use their high volume purchasing position to buy goods at a higher discount and sell them as part of their package. Technically, it would also prevent said paibting services from buying a pot of paint from the local store as well.
ausYenLoWang wrote: Companies cannot sell the models to someone who is going to on sell it or lose their trade account..
Which is not possible really, otherwise every store will lose its trade account. People resell their products all the time for no other reason than they just don't want it anymore, which means the store that sold them the product is in violation - even GW stores.
It's a bs addition to their terms and conditions to scare away the bigger discount resellers, but it's not something that can be properly moderated at all.
It isnt for someone who sells off stuff they dont need/want anymore...so that is taking it abit too far, though it does provide grounds for cancelling an account that is problematic for them. I would imagine they might even have a hit list of retailers who they hope slip up.
Remember, we have seen already from the CHS case that GW will go to certain lengths to gather the evidence they want, even posing as a regular consumer. In particular, there they purchased one of the Tau walkers to gather evidence under the guise of being a regular customer. Dont be surprised to hear of stores being cut off after they use the various geographic filters and email communications pretending to be a customer asking about 'which stores offer good deals, since I am new to this area'. Between casual messages and a few purchasesvthat get them return addresses (or finecast with batch codes) they can identify retail suppliers without much head scratching.
The more obvious justification will be starter set splitting.
If you currently want the rules you have 3 choices: buy the BRB, the box set, or the rules from the box set. If you eliminate the option for people to buy the rules from the box set for $20, they are forced to buy the BRB ($75?) or the box set ($100?).
Of course the reality is that people will either just not bother, or get the box set rules from an end customer on ebay who just wanted the figures.
Well, I only bought the small rule books so far, from ebay, because neither starter set could satisfy me. If they want to somehow stop users from selling their stuff, I'll just .pdf my way through.
Herzlos wrote: The more obvious justification will be starter set splitting.
If you currently want the rules you have 3 choices: buy the BRB, the box set, or the rules from the box set. If you eliminate the option for people to buy the rules from the box set for $20, they are forced to buy the BRB ($75?) or the box set ($100?).
Of course the reality is that people will either just not bother, or get the box set rules from an end customer on ebay who just wanted the figures.
So GW actually allows and promotes starter box splitting in-store. They had events for the first few weeks when 6th came out where you could buy a box and they would match you up with someone who wanted the other half.
So two people could buy their own copy and then trade the half they didn't want, or you could sell the half you didn't want to someone else who would 'pay' you via store credit.
And they still do Bitz Bazaars in GWs as long as instead of cash, you buy stuff in store credit.
I am still not worried at my ability to get the bitz that I want.
Kroothawk wrote: Is Alliance Games distributing GW products now illegal?
Not at all. They are a distributor for GW, and now have to abide by the terms of sale here. If GW finds that a retailer is selling bitz and getting profuct from Alliance, they will ask Alliance to not sell GW product to that store. Other manufacturers already have terms of sale that block distributors from selling to stores that violate them. This is nothing new as far as as distributors are concerned.
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Sigvatr wrote: I am really confused, especially now with the other threa closed...is this still about bitz only? The other thread mentioned sth. about GW completely shutting down selling to resellers.
The part about not selling to retailers is total BS.
Aerethan wrote: I didn't say he wouldn't have to work for it, but assuming he was willing to go thru it all...
It's not a matter of 'working' for it. Unless you mean on the chain gang, when he goes to prison for tax fraud on account of running half of his business outside the actual business...
(RTRP here.) Wouldn't be tax fraud. A person can have as many businesses as they want. What matters is that it is reported correctly and everything is reported. Would require filing multiple schedule C's assuming that he is doing each as a sole proprietorship. Could be done as partnerships/corporations also, which require their own tax forms.
The resources necessary to police the system to stop distributors from selling to "customers" who are actually laundering the product to ebay shops is prohibitive.
This is the sort of thing that will be enforced once or twice a year in a high profile manner. Your local shop probably has nothing to worry about.
Anyone know if this affects the UK as well? Judging by the latest post from Waylands facebook page, I suspect there may be some nasty surprises in for UKGW retail partners as well.
Hi everyone, as you are aware, we have since our opening in 2008 made millions of pounds for some manufacturers of wargame products. We spend a huge amount of effort to always focus on improving our services and technology. We are reasonably lucky being based in the UK as it offers lots of protection for businesses that operate in a market where a single entity appears to be dominant.
It is however impossible to ignore certain recent events and so we would like to offer out our hand to any entities out there that would like to co-operate with us on representing retailers interests to suppliers.
It would assist us greatly if all of you can share this as many places as possible and any retailers that would like to talk with us can contact us via any of the multitude of contact methods we have on our sites.
There are laws in the US to protect consumers on the resale of products they have purchased. Games Workshop does not license miniatures to people – you don’t have to sign a contract to purchase them. So, you own the plastic pieces once bought and you can do with them what you see fit. There are no laws that protect the seller when it comes to your own property. For example – if I wanted to purchase a whole stores worth of space marines, and burn all or part of the contents for my own amusement, Games Workshop has no actionable recourse because it’s not their property anymore. They may be able to not sell their products to stores they know sell bits, but they can’t stop people from selling bits in the US. Those terms are not actionable.
Someone mentioned phone hacking as being illegal in the US: they can do this because the Operating System installed on the phone is licensed. You don't own any part of that intelectual property, so it's illegal to change the way it operates. The actual phone itself? You can alter it however you wish as long as you don't change the way the software operates.
Sining wrote: Anyone know if this affects the UK as well? Judging by the latest post from Waylands facebook page, I suspect there may be some nasty surprises in for UKGW retail partners as well.
Hi everyone, as you are aware, we have since our opening in 2008 made millions of pounds for some manufacturers of wargame products. We spend a huge amount of effort to always focus on improving our services and technology. We are reasonably lucky being based in the UK as it offers lots of protection for businesses that operate in a market where a single entity appears to be dominant.
It is however impossible to ignore certain recent events and so we would like to offer out our hand to any entities out there that would like to co-operate with us on representing retailers interests to suppliers.
It would assist us greatly if all of you can share this as many places as possible and any retailers that would like to talk with us can contact us via any of the multitude of contact methods we have on our sites.
Not that we are aware of. But we thought it was time there was some representation for retailers.
BitWraith wrote: There are laws in the US to protect consumers on the resale of products they have purchased. Games Workshop does not license miniatures to people – you don’t have to sign a contract to purchase them. So, you own the plastic pieces once bought and you can do with them what you see fit. There are no laws that protect the seller when it comes to your own property. For example – if I wanted to purchase a whole stores worth of space marines, and burn all or part of the contents for my own amusement, Games Workshop has no actionable recourse because it’s not their property anymore. They may be able to not sell their products to stores they know sell bits, but they can’t stop people from selling bits in the US. Those terms are not actionable.
Please read the thread. The terms only say that they can take away your sales contract. Meaning they will stop filling your direct orders. There is nothing in the US that stops them from terminating an ordering contract.
Not actually relevant. They are not claiming that you can't sell it, just that they will stop doing business with you if you do.
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BitWraith wrote: I mentioned that in my post. There's several people that seem to think GW can halt all bits sales.
Instead of getting hyperbolic and using phrases like "not actionable" which are patently incorrect here, you should have stuck to the point you wanted to make and kept it clean and simple.
Meh fine, another reason not buy GW stuff or a full kit for those extra bits you want for conversions and instead go to a 3rd party seller or just move onto a different game.
Not actually relevant. They are not claiming that you can't sell it, just that they will stop doing business with you if you do.
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BitWraith wrote: I mentioned that in my post. There's several people that seem to think GW can halt all bits sales.
Instead of getting hyperbolic and using phrases like "not actionable" which are patently incorrect here, you should have stuck to the point you wanted to make and kept it clean and simple.
It's not incorrect based off the point I was trying to make: which is Games Workshop can't take legal action against a consumer for resale of all or part of their product. I have already conceded that that can take action against contracted resellers in my original post.
Herzlos wrote: The more obvious justification will be starter set splitting.
If you currently want the rules you have 3 choices: buy the BRB, the box set, or the rules from the box set. If you eliminate the option for people to buy the rules from the box set for $20, they are forced to buy the BRB ($75?) or the box set ($100?).
Of course the reality is that people will either just not bother, or get the box set rules from an end customer on ebay who just wanted the figures.
So GW actually allows and promotes starter box splitting in-store. They had events for the first few weeks when 6th came out where you could buy a box and they would match you up with someone who wanted the other half.
So two people could buy their own copy and then trade the half they didn't want, or you could sell the half you didn't want to someone else who would 'pay' you via store credit.
And they still do Bitz Bazaars in GWs as long as instead of cash, you buy stuff in store credit.
I am still not worried at my ability to get the bitz that I want.
That's not the same thing though; GW wasn't allowing you to buy partial starter sets, they were just suggesting you traded stuff out with other folk in store that day, or tried to make pairs. GW's role was purely in making it a more organised post-sale trade effort. Everyone bought a box set and there were no lost sales.
The issue they were trying to avoid was LG's splitting open the starter set and selling things separately so people could choose to only buy the rules and/or their faction. Meaning people were only buying partial box sets with the rest of the set as a lost sale (whether they'd have bought it or not).
via Soosas from the Faeit 212 inbox
Miniwargaming just posted that there is a new GW document that will prevent the online sale of their products starting June 15th. I already knew this was the direction GW was going but I still find it extremely disapointing. Thought the community should know.
Sining wrote: Anyone know if this affects the UK as well? Judging by the latest post from Waylands facebook page, I suspect there may be some nasty surprises in for UKGW retail partners as well.
Hi everyone, as you are aware, we have since our opening in 2008 made millions of pounds for some manufacturers of wargame products. We spend a huge amount of effort to always focus on improving our services and technology. We are reasonably lucky being based in the UK as it offers lots of protection for businesses that operate in a market where a single entity appears to be dominant.
It is however impossible to ignore certain recent events and so we would like to offer out our hand to any entities out there that would like to co-operate with us on representing retailers interests to suppliers.
It would assist us greatly if all of you can share this as many places as possible and any retailers that would like to talk with us can contact us via any of the multitude of contact methods we have on our sites.
as I said before the bitz sales is already in force in the UK not sure if GWUK will change their T&C's
Ok, now I'm confused, does this new agreement really prevent ALL online sales in the GW or does it only prohibit online sales when there isn't a corresponding physical presence from the same seller?
1. Online Sales Reserved To Games Workshop:
For the reasons set forth below, GAMES WORKSHOP believes that its best interests are
served by reserving online retail sales of its products in North America to GAMES WORKSHOP’S
own corporate website. GAMES WORKSHOP does not permit the online retail sale of its products by
Retailers located in the United States or Canada. By way of illustration, but not limitation, North
American Retailers are not permitted to sell GAMES WORKSHOP products on any website, webportal, third-party web-portal or other Internet-based platform of any kind. This prohibition
includes any form of online shopping cart that would enable a Consumer to order or purchase
GAMES WORKSHOP products on-line.
This is directly from the Dropbox document. It restates the same policy that has been in force in the US from 2003. Sorry friends to the north, but you are now grouped in this. Phone and snail mail orders are OK, but direct shopping carts are now a no-no.
EDIT-You can advertise GW products on websites, but can't sell them that way.
PhantomViper wrote: Ok, now I'm confused, does this new agreement really prevent ALL online sales in the GW or does it only prohibit online sales when there isn't a corresponding physical presence from the same seller?
Neither. It's more of a price fixing maneuver. Retailers who buy direct from GW cannot sell online and cannot knowingly sell to someone who will sell online.
This ensures that online sales are being done by retailers far enough down the chain that they can't undercut the GW store. It's not that they don't want online sales, it's that they want to fix the prices.
PhantomViper wrote: Ok, now I'm confused, does this new agreement really prevent ALL online sales in the GW or does it only prohibit online sales when there isn't a corresponding physical presence from the same seller?
In the US, (This is a US retailer terms of sale document), they are restricting the online sale of their products. Been that way since 2003. For a long time, this was though to not include bitz. GW obviously now wants to stop bitz sales, online or not.
They are now also restricting the sale of their product, online or not, to only be sold in original packaging.
Retailers who violate this will be blocked from buying GW from a distributor, or from GW directly.
PhantomViper wrote: Ok, now I'm confused, does this new agreement really prevent ALL online sales in the GW or does it only prohibit online sales when there isn't a corresponding physical presence from the same seller?
Neither. It's more of a price fixing maneuver. Retailers who buy direct from GW cannot sell online and cannot knowingly sell to someone who will sell online.
This ensures that online sales are being done by retailers far enough down the chain that they can't undercut the GW store. It's not that they don't want online sales, it's that they want to fix the prices.
Thank you all for the clarifications.
How come this is allowed in the US? Shouldn't this breach half a dozen anti-monopoly laws or something like that?
PhantomViper wrote: Ok, now I'm confused, does this new agreement really prevent ALL online sales in the GW or does it only prohibit online sales when there isn't a corresponding physical presence from the same seller?
Neither. It's more of a price fixing maneuver. Retailers who buy direct from GW cannot sell online and cannot knowingly sell to someone who will sell online.
This ensures that online sales are being done by retailers far enough down the chain that they can't undercut the GW store. It's not that they don't want online sales, it's that they want to fix the prices.
That's not exactly what it says. It says a retailer can't sell to another retailer, only customers. Now if I buy a DV set and want to split it and sell half online I can, and retailers can sell to me. If I'm buying the same DV set and parting it and selling all of it as my business, retailers shouldn't be selling to me.
Essentially it's a toothless measure by GWs because it is unenforceable on it's face. Once someone buys one if its kits a person can dice them up an sell them for a $1million if they really wanted to.
So long as they arn't making copies (which may come up in future years with 3D printers) there's not much GW can do.
GW doesn't understand how the law works, though. It's why they tried to claim the term "Space Marine" exclusively belonged to them and it ended up being a disaster for them.
Essentially it's a toothless measure by GWs because it is unenforceable on it's face. Once someone buys one if its kits a person can dice them up an sell them for a $1million if they really wanted to.
So long as they arn't making copies (which may come up in future years with 3D printers) there's not much GW can do.
GW can stop selling to the retailler. I'd say there's quite a lot that GW can do to enforce its own policies.
Essentially it's a toothless measure by GWs because it is unenforceable on it's face. Once someone buys one if its kits a person can dice them up an sell them for a $1million if they really wanted to.
So long as they arn't making copies (which may come up in future years with 3D printers) there's not much GW can do.
GW can stop selling to the retailler. I'd say there's quite a lot that GW can do to enforce its own policies.
But the issue in question is "prohibiting the sale of bits." Bits retailers may not be able to buy at MSRP rates but they can still buy normally and then dice them up later with no consequence (outside of likley higher bits prices of course).
via the Faeit 212 inbox
GW to reenter the bits market?
So GW are advertising for a component parts warehouse manager, plus the ban on bits selling suggest GW may be planning to roll out the bits department again.
On a side note it seems this GW v chapterhouse legal suite has made GW up their game and production schedule, as they are also advertising for rules writers for both mainstream and forge world...
We had heard the rest, but a 'component parts warehouse manager'? That's new.
Essentially it's a toothless measure by GWs because it is unenforceable on it's face. Once someone buys one if its kits a person can dice them up an sell them for a $1million if they really wanted to.
So long as they arn't making copies (which may come up in future years with 3D printers) there's not much GW can do.
For the 10th time, GW never said they could stop you from selling a product. They said they can stop doing business with you if you do. If you are a shop and you are selling online, GW can stop giving you your nice direct sale shop discount. You're free to resell a product, they are free to stop doing business with you.
Contract being the operative word. You have to agree to their terms in writing for retail distribution. If you're a retail store and you want to buy their products at full retail prices and break them up (without signing anything), there's really nothing they can do to stop you. If you sign a distribution contract with them and do it, they'll cut you off.
Refusal to do business with a customer can be a hazy thing in America. There are several instances where it's not allowed (color of skin, religion, etc), and some instances where it is (sale of goods will damage business, what GW is postulating).
For the last couple years the only GW purchases I made have been from people who take battleforces or squad boxes and break them up. They still make the minority of my miniature gaming purchases, but if this policy either makes those sellers close up shop or raise prices, I'm probably just going to decrease my GW purchases even further, perhaps to zero. Actually let's be honest it's probably there already.
But I can't be the only one who is spending money on GW bitz, even to a small degree. It's enough of a issue that GW is trying to stop it. I highly doubt that those who like buying individual parts off of eBay are suddenly going to switch their purchases to full squad boxes.
Yea GW is saying "were not giving you the 45% discount if we find you too be opening box's and selling bits if you bought that box directly through us"
You can still sell bits you just have to go through someone else to get the bits.
I think GW is going to be restarting selling bits. The online sale thing has been around forever.
The age restriction thing is just a legal Cover your ass thing. Certain state do not allow sale of certain items to minor. Spray paint to childern under 18 in rhode island is an example. They basically telling the brick and morter stores that they need to followl there own state/city laws.
This is just an updated version of there 2003 law, just closing a door people used to get around the rule. Some will find the open window and life will go on. Lets all stop with the chicken little stuff now, "the sky is not falling"
What's next, pretre? Posting leaked WD pics of the upcoming Tau release
pretre wrote:From Faeit212:
via the Faeit 212 inbox
GW to reenter the bits market?
So GW are advertising for a component parts warehouse manager, plus the ban on bits selling suggest GW may be planning to roll out the bits department again.
We had heard the rest, but a 'component parts warehouse manager'? That's new.
Absolutionis wrote: Is nobody talking about GW not selling to online retailers anymore? Was that completely missed?
You mean other than the several times it was posted in the thread? Nah, we aren't talking about it.
I was fairly certain that nothing about it changed (i.e. no websites with carts, etc..), or did I miss something as well
It appears to extend the 'No Webstore' language to Canada. It still says you can't sell anything online. Nothing about advertising or listing and then call in for ordering (the old workaround) that I saw.
Refusal to do business with a customer can be a hazy thing in America. There are several instances where it's not allowed (color of skin, religion, etc), and some instances where it is (sale of goods will damage business, what GW is postulating).
No, there are several ways it's not allowed and in literally all other ways it is.
You can refuse to do business with anyone at any time for any reason as long as it's not on a very short list of not allowed reasons. You don't even need a reason. You just have to not have a bad reason. There's not really anything to it. If GW wants to just refuse to deal with every 3rd person who asks, that is completely 100% legal.
Orktavius wrote: Right.....GW hates independents despite their entire retail setup being designed around the idea of recruiting new hobbyists and shuffling em on down the road to independents to play games/pick up product.
They don’t want customers buying from the LGS. They want customers buying from them. From their perspective LGS’ are necessary but not wanted; something they have to deal with because in a land as huge as the US there’s no other way to get sufficient market penetration with their own stores alone.
You simply cannot be ignorant of the multiple stories of successful LGS’ and how they’re treated both before and after a GW store opens up nearby?
One of the small advantages of living in St. Louis. There are well over a dozen FLGS' here. GW stores wither on the vine here due to the INTENSE competition with the Fantasy Store (6 locations last I heard), Fantasy Games (more than one location), Game Nite, Miniature Market, Ogre Games, Wargamer's Cave, Star Clipper (at least two locations), and who knows how many others in the area.
People here generally buy where they play. And GW stores never have enough playing space to make it worthwhile - on top of generally being infested with mallrats (as opposed to gamers who are merely young).
Valkyrie wrote: So how are they going to enforce this insane new policy?
Retailers get special pricing. If they are found to violate these policies, they get less special pricing.
Realistically, this won't impact bitz places that buy via distributors, but I've heard it's harder to get limited-supply stuff if you order through a distributor as opposed to GW direct.
Of course, somecompanies are happy to place the most requested weapons and such up for individual order... (There's probably other companies I'm leaving out...)
Balance wrote: Of course, somecompanies are happy to place the most requested weapons and such up for individual order... (There's probably other companies I'm leaving out...)
GW is hiring a Bits Warehouse manager apparently, so you may be able to add a link to GW to that list...
Balance wrote: Of course, somecompanies are happy to place the most requested weapons and such up for individual order... (There's probably other companies I'm leaving out...)
GW is hiring a Bits Warehouse manager apparently, so you may be able to add a link to GW to that list...
If this is a rumour you can add yourself to that list of yours (if your not already on it).
Refusal to do business with a customer can be a hazy thing in America. There are several instances where it's not allowed (color of skin, religion, etc), and some instances where it is (sale of goods will damage business, what GW is postulating).
No, there are several ways it's not allowed and in literally all other ways it is.
You can refuse to do business with anyone at any time for any reason as long as it's not on a very short list of not allowed reasons. You don't even need a reason. You just have to not have a bad reason. There's not really anything to it. If GW wants to just refuse to deal with every 3rd person who asks, that is completely 100% legal.
It's not even remotely hazy.
The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."
In cases in which the patron is not a member of a federally protected class, the question generally turns on whether the business's refusal of service was arbitrary, or whether the business had a specific interest in refusing service. For example, in a recent case, a California court decided that a motorcycle club had no discrimination claim against a sports bar that had denied members admission to the bar because they refused to remove their "colors," or patches, which signified club membership. The court held that the refusal of service was not based on the club members' unconventional dress, but was to protect a legitimate business interest in preventing fights between rival club members.
On the other hand, a California court decided that a restaurant owner could not refuse to seat a gay couple in a semi-private booth where the restaurant policy was to only seat two people of opposite sexes in such booths. There was no legitimate business reason for the refusal of service, and so the discrimination was arbitrary and unlawful.
Of course it's freakin hazy, otherwise there wouldn't be mounds of court cases out there for rights to refuse service. It becomes hazy with GW because they're competing with their own retailers. They could end up in court if they push things too far. Why are you sniping at me anyway?
Balance wrote: Of course, somecompanies are happy to place the most requested weapons and such up for individual order... (There's probably other companies I'm leaving out...)
GW is hiring a Bits Warehouse manager apparently, so you may be able to add a link to GW to that list...
If this is a rumour you can add yourself to that list of yours (if your not already on it).
It is a rumor and I did not generate it. It was sent to Faeit212.
Refusal to do business with a customer can be a hazy thing in America. There are several instances where it's not allowed (color of skin, religion, etc), and some instances where it is (sale of goods will damage business, what GW is postulating).
No, there are several ways it's not allowed and in literally all other ways it is.
You can refuse to do business with anyone at any time for any reason as long as it's not on a very short list of not allowed reasons. You don't even need a reason. You just have to not have a bad reason. There's not really anything to it. If GW wants to just refuse to deal with every 3rd person who asks, that is completely 100% legal.
It's not even remotely hazy.
It's just like a bouncer at a nightclub. He can tell you "not tonight" or say that "they are full", claim it's a private members night but he cannot give a reason that can fall into any discriminatory categories. GW can just say that they believed them to breach their trade agreements or that they weren't making enough money from the store to justify selling to them.
@Bitwraith what happened to the right to refuse a customer?
It still exists. It is just restricted by equality law. So long as GW isn't refusing to sell to a store because they are [insert minority here], then they are fine. Hell they can just refuse to renew the contract next year.
Jehan-reznor wrote: I don'thow big the market on re-casters is, but i think that this is more a boon for those small companies that make non-GW parts.
If getting parts from GW is difficult there are enough other paths to take using "non-space marine" arms, heads, legs etcetera
Yep.
It's not like GW is running any tournaments anymore. Certainly no one OTHER than GW cares if you use non-GW parts when you play GW games.
Refusal to do business with a customer can be a hazy thing in America. There are several instances where it's not allowed (color of skin, religion, etc), and some instances where it is (sale of goods will damage business, what GW is postulating).
No, there are several ways it's not allowed and in literally all other ways it is.
You can refuse to do business with anyone at any time for any reason as long as it's not on a very short list of not allowed reasons. You don't even need a reason. You just have to not have a bad reason. There's not really anything to it. If GW wants to just refuse to deal with every 3rd person who asks, that is completely 100% legal.
It's not even remotely hazy.
The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."
In cases in which the patron is not a member of a federally protected class, the question generally turns on whether the business's refusal of service was arbitrary, or whether the business had a specific interest in refusing service. For example, in a recent case, a California court decided that a motorcycle club had no discrimination claim against a sports bar that had denied members admission to the bar because they refused to remove their "colors," or patches, which signified club membership. The court held that the refusal of service was not based on the club members' unconventional dress, but was to protect a legitimate business interest in preventing fights between rival club members.
On the other hand, a California court decided that a restaurant owner could not refuse to seat a gay couple in a semi-private booth where the restaurant policy was to only seat two people of opposite sexes in such booths. There was no legitimate business reason for the refusal of service, and so the discrimination was arbitrary and unlawful.
Of course it's freakin hazy, otherwise there wouldn't be mounds of court cases out there for rights to refuse service. It becomes hazy with GW because they're competing with their own retailers. They could end up in court if they push things too far. Why are you sniping at me anyway?
I'd have to agree with the "not hazy" veiw. A company does not have to do business with everyone. There are many companies I have applied to, and not gotten a wholesale account, and my stores have been around 25 years. Some companies only want to sell their products through certain markets, grant sales areas, non-compete clauses, and stipulate how/when/where you can sell their product. Either agree, or don't sell it.
GW isn't the first to do this. Many other game companies have terms of sales. And more and more these extend outwards from the Distribution chain. It is going to be much harder for someone to buy from a distributor now, if not abiding by GW's rules.
Well, it's like the BitzBarn guy said on another forum - unless they can tell where he got his bits they can't do squat to him. It's not like they serial number each piece.
BitWraith wrote: Well, it's like the BitzBarn guy said on another forum - unless they can tell where he got his bits they can't do squat to him. It's not like they serial number each piece.
Only true if he's not buying direct from them. And we've covered repeatedly that GW can't do anything to people not buying from them directly.
GW is hiring a Bits Warehouse manager apparently, so you may be able to add a link to GW to that list...
If this is true, it's amazing.
I can't help but wonder when we'll see the release of GW brand lubricant, as it seems that it's increasingly necessary in order to continue to bend over and sell or play their games.
via the Faeit 212 inbox
GW to reenter the bits market?
So GW are advertising for a component parts warehouse manager, plus the ban on bits selling suggest GW may be planning to roll out the bits department again.
We had heard the rest, but a 'component parts warehouse manager'? That's new.
Am I the only one who keeps reading it as competent warehouse manager?
BitWraith wrote: Well, it's like the BitzBarn guy said on another forum - unless they can tell where he got his bits they can't do squat to him. It's not like they serial number each piece.
Exactly, no one would rat out there source and GW cant do bugger all other then show up and ask for sales transactions, which runs into several problems like 1) spending money to send someone to the store 2) missing employees that get sent to stores
GW is hiring a Bits Warehouse manager apparently, so you may be able to add a link to GW to that list...
If this is true, it's amazing.
I can't help but wonder when we'll see the release of GW brand lubricant, as it seems that it's increasingly necessary in order to continue to bend over and sell or play their games.
Heck, I'd love to be able to buy a whole sprue of weapons from GW. I've bought a good bit of bits from third parties and they're not exactly cheap. Cheaper than buying a whole box of minis, but not what I'd consider inexpensive.
They could even make the whole sprue, cut it up themselves and undercut the bitz sellers. There's no reason for them to even resort to price fixing like this.
This policy shift is price fixing. They don't intend to stop online sales or bitz sales, they intend to make them more expensive by forcing them further down the supply chain.
This is being done specifically to reduce competition with their upcoming return of bitz sales.
Rented Tritium wrote: They could even make the whole sprue, cut it up themselves and undercut the bitz sellers. There's no reason for them to even resort to price fixing like this.
Unless you buy 50 bucks worth, they're going to charge you 10 bucks to ship for something they could easily mail with just a stamp.
It's a bit of a leap from 'hiring a new warehouse manager' to 'starting to sell bits again'... They store the various components for their models in a warehouse prior to boxing them up and shipping them out. That warehouse would be the 'component parts warehouse'...
I agree with insaniak on this. It might be a stretch to say selling sprues (bare rhino sprue, tactical squad upgrade sprue, etc), but that's highly doubtful.
stupidest thing GW ever did was stop selling bits...
All it did was force all us converters to spend money elsewhere,
ok maybe not supidest, but an epic fail boat in a sea of faliure to be sure
GW will never be able to ban bitz sellers, just like ford cant stop no name autobody shops from selling their car parts.
unless GW stops selling models entirely, or starts up selling bits again, it will always make peopel money to buy the sprues and then bit them out. as long as there is money to be made, then it will be made
While a lot of people are pretty upset about GW prohibiting the sales of Bitz by enforcing that their products should be sold in the original packaging what really makes me worried is that its new trade terms prohibit USA and CANADA based retailers from selling online and selling for costumers based outside their countries.
Mind you I live in Brazil and buying online is the only viable option I have to get my models as we have no distributor or independent stockist down here. So with this new trade policies I have no way of purchasing miniatures other than through Ebay and GW online store itself.
The new trade policy is also pretty incisive in its definition of a "retailer" ( This new and improved Policy supersedes and replaces the old 2003 Policy and applies to all “Retailers” (defined in the new Policy to include both directly-supplied Trade Accounts and indirectly supplied retailers who purchase GAMES WORKSHOP products from Authorized Distributors) operating in the United States and Canada) so, unless the bits shops are purchasing their models at full prices in the end of the distribution chain they're bound to rethink their businesses.
While a lot of people are pretty upset about GW prohibiting the sales of Bitz by enforcing that their products should be sold in the original packaging what really makes me worried is that its new trade terms prohibit USA and CANADA based retailers from selling online and selling for costumers based outside their countries.
As has been said multiple times this isn't new for the USA.
You can still buy from a US dealer, you just can't have a web cart to check out. Just like the past 10 years.
Well I have recently purchased from US based stores using web carts.
I know The Warstore had a different system in which you emailed them to get a quote and put in an order but even that avenue is now closed to me as, from June 15th onwards, any US and Canada based stores are effectivelly forbidden to sell abroad.
While a lot of people are pretty upset about GW prohibiting the sales of Bitz by enforcing that their products should be sold in the original packaging what really makes me worried is that its new trade terms prohibit USA and CANADA based retailers from selling online and selling for costumers based outside their countries.
As has been said multiple times this isn't new for the USA.
You can still buy from a US dealer, you just can't have a web cart to check out. Just like the past 10 years.
The cross borders thing is new. Since he lives in Brazil - he will have to purchase direct from GW as there are no in country dealers available and the EU/UK shops are prohibited from selling outside of the EU/UK.
Previously a lot of people in Asia, South America and Africa had been purchasing from US or Canadian stores because they got a pretty good discount and reasonable shipping rates (sometimes free shipping). Now, they will have to buy from GW US or GWUK or god help them GW AU.
It does a well and good job of stifling all competition in the various emerging markets where you often have expats living or people who are getting to the point where they have the disposable income to get into something like wargaming.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BitWraith wrote: Well, it's like the BitzBarn guy said on another forum - unless they can tell where he got his bits they can't do squat to him. It's not like they serial number each piece.
They never could really do anything to the bits dealer...though they can go after the person who is selling them the bits. They wouldn't even need direct evidence - it isn't a legal case, they could just say we are sorry Neal...but we heard that you were selling to the BitzBarn so we are going to cut off your trade account with us.
Legal standards of evidence do not apply. If you read the contract, it uses the key word "unilateral". This word is used to skirt various vertical distribution and pricing statutes as it implies that the same rules will apply to all retail outlets and is not targeting anyone dealer due to race, gender, creed or location.
There still does remain a fair amount of haziness regarding several issues in the US, but most small shops have neither the time nor the money to file a complaint with the FTC or go through civil courts to have the contract adjucated. GW is well aware of this and will use the new contract as a hammer when they feel the need to.
So lets say BitzBarn is buying his kits from "X-Brand" store. If X-Brand store is selling BitzBarn full kits at whatever price it is that he sells them at, how can Games Workshop terminate a contract based off what the buyer is doing with them? GW minis aren't regulated substances like drugs where you have to "cut off the supplier". X-Brand could probably care less what happens to the minis he's selling, and he isn't culpable for what the buyer does with them afterward.
Forget any legal whatevers, this would be bad business.
I still sell out of country in fact 65% of my business is international. Honestly a bunch of us have said we won't stop selling so i think some of you are just worrying over nothing.
pretre wrote: As has been said before, GW can cut off supply to anyone at any time for any reason that isn't protected by law.
I guess what I'm getting at is trying to wrap my head around how stupid this all is. They're selling plastic toy crap (I love them folks, but lets face it, this is what they sell). They're behaving like there's a black market conspiracy and GW minis are a controllable substance. And the reason it sets me off is because this and some other things are pointing to the loss of rights for the buyer in this country that I see starting to creep in. Apple is almost as bad, and I don't hear about them going after Best Buy because Best Buy is selling phones to a company that unlocks them and sells them.
Empchild wrote: I still sell out of country in fact 65% of my business is international. Honestly a bunch of us have said we won't stop selling so i think some of you are just worrying over nothing.
I do know a lot of USA web stores could no longer offer GW products directly on their webbsites for a while now, so what most did was simply having you call or write them telling you what you wanted and business would proceed as normal.
According to the new trade terms no online business can be conducted by retailers. Not even the "get a quote from us by email" method.
From their document:
1. Online Sales Reserved To Games Workshop:
For the reasons set forth below, GAMES WORKSHOP believes that its best interests are served by reserving online retail sales of its products in North America to GAMES WORKSHOP’S own corporate website. GAMES WORKSHOP does not permit the online retail sale of its products by Retailers located in the United States or Canada. By way of illustration, but not limitation, North American Retailers are not permitted to sell GAMES WORKSHOP products on any website, web-portal, third-party web-portal or other Internet-based platform of any kind. This prohibition includes any form of online shopping cart that would enable a Consumer to order or purchase GAMES WORKSHOP products on-line.
I may be reading too much into it and I do hope there's a way I can continue shopping from the US but things look pretty grim to me right now.
Gereth wrote: I may be reading too much into it and I do hope there's a way I can continue shopping from the US but things look pretty grim to me right now.
Nothing in there prohibits you emailing in an order from a catalog that you download from them/get emailed to you.
All that needs to happen now is for Mantic to get a foothold in the US and I think what GW has done may of helped them! Yeah I know the miniatures are not to everyones taste but they are constantly improving and the rulesets for KoW and Dreadball (not played warpath yet) imo are really really good and also has the added benefit of being able to use for both systems (KoW for WHFB and Warpath for 40k and vice versa).
I do know a lot of USA web stores could no longer offer GW products directly on their webbsites for a while now, so what most did was simply having you call or write them telling you what you wanted and business would proceed as normal.
According to the new trade terms no online business can be conducted by retailers. Not even the "get a quote from us by email" method.
From their document:
1. Online Sales Reserved To Games Workshop:
For the reasons set forth below, GAMES WORKSHOP believes that its best interests are served by reserving online retail sales of its products in North America to GAMES WORKSHOP’S own corporate website. GAMES WORKSHOP does not permit the online retail sale of its products by Retailers located in the United States or Canada. By way of illustration, but not limitation, North American Retailers are not permitted to sell GAMES WORKSHOP products on any website, web-portal, third-party web-portal or other Internet-based platform of any kind. This prohibition includes any form of online shopping cart that would enable a Consumer to order or purchase GAMES WORKSHOP products on-line.
I may be reading too much into it and I do hope there's a way I can continue shopping from the US but things look pretty grim to me right now.
One could argue that the phrasing doesn't disallow sales by stores to people outside of North America.
C. POLICY REGARDING DOMESTIC SALES ONLY
North American Retailers are only authorized to resell GAMES WORKSHOP products domestically in their respective countries of origin. Accordingly, United States Retailers are prohibited from exporting GAMES WORKSHOP products for purposes resale to Consumers located outside of the United States. Similarly, Canadian Retailers are prohibited from exporting GAMES WORKSHOP products for purposes resale to Consumers located outside of Canada. Foreign sales of GAMES WORKSHOP products by Retailers can be disruptive to GAMES WORKSHOP’S vertical distribution networks in other countries.
That pretty much spells the end of the 40K hobby for me.
overtyrant wrote: All that needs to happen now is for Mantic to get a foothold in the US and I think what GW has done may of helped them! Yeah I know the miniatures are not to everyones taste but they are constantly improving and the rulesets for KoW and Dreadball (not played warpath yet) imo are really really good and also has the added benefit of being able to use for both systems (KoW for WHFB and Warpath for 40k and vice versa).
The other thing Mantic's would need is miniatures that someone wanted to buy. As terrible as GW's customer service and pricing are, I still don't imagine Mantic's is cutting into their consumer base.
C. POLICY REGARDING DOMESTIC SALES ONLY
North American Retailers are only authorized to resell GAMES WORKSHOP products domestically in their respective countries of origin. Accordingly, United States Retailers are prohibited from exporting GAMES WORKSHOP products for purposes resale to Consumers located outside of the United States. Similarly, Canadian Retailers are prohibited from exporting GAMES WORKSHOP products for purposes resale to Consumers located outside of Canada. Foreign sales of GAMES WORKSHOP products by Retailers can be disruptive to GAMES WORKSHOP’S vertical distribution networks in other countries.
That pretty much spells the end of the 40K hobby for me.
No your fine honestly you can still call and email it just means no webcarts but several of us are just not listening.
Thats bs, maybe GW should lose their historical exchange rate system then, the canadian dollar has been on par with the US for nearly 10 years now and for some reason Im still paying 20% more.
Someone could easily make a ton of money being a middle man shipping to Canada from the US, even though there is already plenty of services like that in Niagra falls.
overtyrant wrote: All that needs to happen now is for Mantic to get a foothold in the US and I think what GW has done may of helped them! Yeah I know the miniatures are not to everyones taste but they are constantly improving and the rulesets for KoW and Dreadball (not played warpath yet) imo are really really good and also has the added benefit of being able to use for both systems (KoW for WHFB and Warpath for 40k and vice versa).
The other thing Mantic's would need is miniatures that someone wanted to buy. As terrible as GW's customer service and pricing are, I still don't imagine Mantic's is cutting into their consumer base.
Well there is plenty of minitures there for people to want and buy. imo Mantics Orcs, undead and elves (controversial I know) and there rulesets are far superior to GW (as well as there price lol). And the stuff that's coming from the KoWKS are fantastic! If you haven't played any of there games you should check out there rules (free pdf last time I checked) and give it a go.I do play WHFB and 40k still but am slowly moving over to Mantica.
Empchild wrote: I still sell out of country in fact 65% of my business is international. Honestly a bunch of us have said we won't stop selling so i think some of you are just worrying over nothing.
I'm not worried YOU are going to stop selling bits, I'm worried other people (whether it be GW direct or a 3rd party retailer) will stop selling you the kits that you can use to then distribute the bits.
Empchild wrote: I still sell out of country in fact 65% of my business is international. Honestly a bunch of us have said we won't stop selling so i think some of you are just worrying over nothing.
I'm not worried YOU are going to stop selling bits, I'm worried other people (whether it be GW direct or a 3rd party retailer) will stop selling you the kits that you can use to then distribute the bits.
I have already spoken with my distributors and have back up plans in place for my company. I have no idea about other ones as only a few of us actually talk to each other in civilized fashion. There are a few well known bits vendors who act like children a lot.
C. POLICY REGARDING DOMESTIC SALES ONLY
North American Retailers are only authorized to resell GAMES WORKSHOP products domestically in their respective countries of origin. Accordingly, United States Retailers are prohibited from exporting GAMES WORKSHOP products for purposes resale to Consumers located outside of the United States. Similarly, Canadian Retailers are prohibited from exporting GAMES WORKSHOP products for purposes resale to Consumers located outside of Canada. Foreign sales of GAMES WORKSHOP products by Retailers can be disruptive to GAMES WORKSHOP’S vertical distribution networks in other countries.
That pretty much spells the end of the 40K hobby for me.
Gareth if your buying as an end user you arent affected, as its limiting sales outside the US for "resale".
Gareth if your buying as an end user you arent affected, as its limiting sales outside the US for "resale".
Nope, there are two separate statements there. They are stating that American accounts are only to sell domestically (ie: inside the US), and that they can not export to a customer who is reselling.
The second statement isn't the entirety of the rule... it's just making it painfully obvious that exporting is now verboten, whether it's to a customer or to another store.
In the end it will boil down to supply and demand. If there is a demand for bitz, people will find a way to provide them even though the cost may be higher than now. Alternatively the small companies manufacturing accessories for40k will actually benefit from this due to increased demand and less supply of GW bitz.
This is just the latest battle in GW's quixotic war against the internet. If it was not for the fact that it will hurt businesses like the Warstore it would be very amusing.
Let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that GW was successful in completely stopping people from breaking up their kits and selling the bitz. Can anyone conceive an end result other than GW selling less product? Can anyone come up with an example of a toy manufacturer that actually wanted to lower its sales?
Gareth if your buying as an end user you arent affected, as its limiting sales outside the US for "resale".
Nope, there are two separate statements there. They are stating that American accounts are only to sell domestically (ie: inside the US), and that they can not export to a customer who is reselling.
The second statement isn't the entirety of the rule... it's just making it painfully obvious that exporting is now verboten, whether it's to a customer or to another store.
Thanks mate missed that bit..... farrrrk. and aus gets screwed harder
Automatically Appended Next Post: Something that just occurred to me, how will this affect commission painting companies or individuals? or more precisely those that are supplying them...
Basically someone took international text books and resold them in America and the publisher sued. I think a similar argument could be made in the case here but Games Workshop could still terminate their trade account. GW can refuse to sell to anyone but they can't go after a second part for reselling goods to another market after the original seller sold the item to the reseller of the item.
IT basically boils down to a scare tactic for trade account holders. Still if they resell to a third party (aka a secondary business) and sell the bits then the same exact business model can be preserved - except that another intermediate business would need to be created for the reselling of the bits.
Could a company create a second company, owned wholly by the same people as a seperate legal entity, that it then gives the purchased GW product to for "free" and that secondary company then sells the bits.
Grey Templar wrote: Not if it was a completely different company, which by law are seperate entities.
But if your buying under your trade accound and giving to your other company that then on sells it, your company 1 will lose its trade account.
The limit on the trade account is that you can sell to consumers only, not other companies. It keeps you from becoming a distributor. Distributors like Alliance and Southern Hobby Supply (are they even still around?) have a whole other agreement with GW, and they aren't running FLGS.
This keeps the FLGS in line and keeps them out of a secondary cash stream by adding value to those bits.
This is all very upsetting, as its only perceivable goal is to hurt FLGSs. With the increasingly hostile changes to trade terms, it only makes sense if GW is trying to eventually eliminate all independent stockists. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see GW do away with all trade accounts in the next few years. Do any of the store owners on here have plans in place to deal with such a development?
Gareth if your buying as an end user you arent affected, as its limiting sales outside the US for "resale".
Nope, there are two separate statements there. They are stating that American accounts are only to sell domestically (ie: inside the US), and that they can not export to a customer who is reselling.
The second statement isn't the entirety of the rule... it's just making it painfully obvious that exporting is now verboten, whether it's to a customer or to another store.
If I can no longer buy GW products at international prices in Oz, I will cease to buy GW products. I can afford them, but I refuse to pay those outlandish prices, I also dislike supporting a company that has a philosophy is "fleece existing customers until they leave and when they do, fleece the remaining customers more to make up for it". I don't buy the "they're a company not a charity" BS, there was a time when business 101 was make your customer happy and I think GW are going to pay heavily in the long term for ignoring that.
Ravenous D wrote: Thats bs, maybe GW should lose their historical exchange rate system then, the canadian dollar has been on par with the US for nearly 10 years now and for some reason Im still paying 20% more.
As was said when the UK/EA embargo came in, if GW just normalised their prices (like Lego and a lot of other companies do), then this really wouldn't be a problem.
rogueeyes wrote: There isn't much that GW can do to prevent resale of goods. There was just a Supreme Court case today in the US about a similar matter:
Basically someone took international text books and resold them in America and the publisher sued. I think a similar argument could be made in the case here but Games Workshop could still terminate their trade account. GW can refuse to sell to anyone but they can't go after a second part for reselling goods to another market after the original seller sold the item to the reseller of the item.
IT basically boils down to a scare tactic for trade account holders. Still if they resell to a third party (aka a secondary business) and sell the bits then the same exact business model can be preserved - except that another intermediate business would need to be created for the reselling of the bits.
Poor analogy, that was one guy buying retail and selling on. That case was to stop him parallel importing which is allowed but companies can stipulate clauses JUST LIKE THIS ONE in their trade agreements to try and limit it.
BitWraith wrote: GW minis aren't regulated substances like drugs where you have to "cut off the supplier"...
...They're selling plastic toy crap (I love them folks, but lets face it, this is what they sell). They're behaving like there's a black market conspiracy and GW minis are a controllable substance.
When the consumer behaves like a drug addict, the manufacturer will behave like a drug pusher.
Can anybody name a single other company or industry that could behave the same way that GW does and still retain the majority of its market?
Big Oil? Tobacco? South American drug cartels?
azreal13 wrote:
One could argue that the phrasing doesn't disallow sales by stores to people outside of North America.
Yes, but the only ones who have to disagree with that to spoil your logic are GW. And they do disagree.
Guildsman wrote: This is all very upsetting, as its only perceivable goal is to hurt FLGSs. With the increasingly hostile changes to trade terms, it only makes sense if GW is trying to eventually eliminate all independent stockists. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see GW do away with all trade accounts in the next few years. Do any of the store owners on here have plans in place to deal with such a development?
Its litterally to force people to buy from GW or GW online without a discount. I can hazard a guess and say that GWs next contract will be "no discounts or sales"
Ravenous D wrote: Thats bs, maybe GW should lose their historical exchange rate system then, the canadian dollar has been on par with the US for nearly 10 years now and for some reason Im still paying 20% more.
As was said when the UK/EA embargo came in, if GW just normalised their prices (like Lego and a lot of other companies do), then this really wouldn't be a problem.
No kidding GW sure is putting up alot of barriers for themselves, next they should put punji pits and bear traps in front of their stores.
Guildsman wrote: This is all very upsetting, as its only perceivable goal is to hurt FLGSs. With the increasingly hostile changes to trade terms, it only makes sense if GW is trying to eventually eliminate all independent stockists. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see GW do away with all trade accounts in the next few years. Do any of the store owners on here have plans in place to deal with such a development?
Its litterally to force people to buy from GW or GW online without a discount. I can hazard a guess and say that GWs next contract will be "no discounts or sales"
i think they will lose customers in droves if they do this
Why will they lose customer in droves? Why does everything have to be 20% off for you to buy it. Thanks, we get the newsflash that hobbies are expensive.
In some places, like the US, it is actually required that sales not be permanent, hence the reason why Sears has a rotation on appliance sales and deals.
As I have said before, discounts are not an obligation of a seller to provide. Sometimes, they are a privilege we as the customers earn.
Well considering how badly they are screwing everyone now and the fact they actually made money last year is just going to encourage more bad choices.
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SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Why will they lose customer in droves? Why does everything have to be 20% off for you to buy it. Thanks, we get the newsflash that hobbies are expensive.
In some places, like the US, it is actually required that sales not be permanent, hence the reason why Sears has a rotation on appliance sales and deals.
As I have said before, discounts are not an obligation of a seller to provide. Sometimes, they are a privilege we as the customers earn.
They are not screwing everyone. Nothing they sell is mandatory for life. This is a hobby. Ferraris are expensive too, but my letters have gone unanswered when I asked them to make their products more affordable.
Because a lot of people think the hobby is already expensive and paying closer to or less than the perceived value encourages people to buy? lol
Why does everything have to be 20% off for you to buy it.
Who ever said it does? It just encourages it. I know I've bought more at GW sales than I've bought at any other times (back when they had sales).
No need to go on a rant about how customers feel entitled to sales, it's simply a case of customers feeling less screwed if they can get things at a discount and closer to or less than what they feel the value of the product might be.
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SoloFalcon1138 wrote: They are not screwing everyone. Nothing they sell is mandatory for life. This is a hobby. Ferraris are expensive too, but my letters have gone unanswered when I asked them to make their products more affordable.
Yes, they are screwing people by changing policies (GW, not Ferrari, I don't want to get in to pointless analogies). If I decided to walk away from GW now I'd have 2 unfinished armies and to flog them would cost me several hundred dollars and many hours I've put in to them.
That's why we say "screwing their customers". Ravenous D was exaggerated a bit with "screwing everyone", as they can't screw people who aren't already invested. It can even just be an emotional investment, which is why we often say game/movie developers are screwing their customers/fans by releasing terrible sequels and such (you feel very screwed if you actually paid money to play/see the sequel, but as a customer/fan you can still feel screwed even if you didn't).
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Selling direct to comission painting companies looks to be forbidden, as thye will then re-sell the models
But to get round it all they'll need to do is get the end user to buy the kits to provide to the painting service
(but it will impact on them buying/painting before they have a customer)
I think value-added services make the painted mini de facto another product.
Yes - defacto another product, but it is a violation of the business to business clause.
Like I said already, it would also be a violation if they came in to buy a bottle of paint as well...since technically the only ones who can sell GW products to another business are approved distributors or GW themselves.
One thing people have to keep in mind when they consider what they think GW might not do (shut down a distributor or major retailer) is their past history. When they put the Australia Embargo in place, they saw an increase in sales in Australia of 6% and no drop in sales in the UK (where most the sales were coming from prior to the embargo). They saw nearly a 10% jump in North America though - no doubt aided by a lot of those customers shifting purchases from the UK suppliers to US and Canadian suppliers. This new set of restrictions they probably assume will get Australia out of the red and not negatively impact North America.
Between their annual price hikes and activities like these, they are managing to keep the numbers looking positive even though it would be hard to see any real growth in the GW base or real units sold.
Guildsman wrote: This is all very upsetting, as its only perceivable goal is to hurt FLGSs. With the increasingly hostile changes to trade terms, it only makes sense if GW is trying to eventually eliminate all independent stockists. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see GW do away with all trade accounts in the next few years. Do any of the store owners on here have plans in place to deal with such a development?
Its litterally to force people to buy from GW or GW online without a discount. I can hazard a guess and say that GWs next contract will be "no discounts or sales"
That's just the thing - it makes me think it is their naivete that may be driving these sorts of decisions. Instead of looking inward at the issues with the company, they keep driving a wedge between them and their customers/resellers trying to figure out the formula as to why they are seeing declining sales.
"It must be the bits sales. Let's see what we can do about shutting down the second-hand bits market. Now that that is out of the way, the next thing on the agenda is the annual price increase coming this summer. . ."
puma713 wrote: "It must be the bits sales. Let's see what we can do about shutting down the second-hand bits market. Now that that is out of the way, the next thing on the agenda is the annual price increase coming this summer. . ."
I think they either 1. Truly believe people are so invested that they won't leave GW AND they can still get new customers even while old customers spread bad advertising about their products, or 2. They are so interested in short term success they don't care about long term repercussions. It may be true that in the short term customers will keep purchasing to finish of whatever projects/armies they have going despite GW's policies, but in the long term instead of starting new armies people are going to leave with a bad taste in their mouth.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Why will they lose customer in droves? Why does everything have to be 20% off for you to buy it. Thanks, we get the newsflash that hobbies are expensive.
In some places, like the US, it is actually required that sales not be permanent, hence the reason why Sears has a rotation on appliance sales and deals.
As I have said before, discounts are not an obligation of a seller to provide. Sometimes, they are a privilege we as the customers earn.
For canadians your 20% is way way off.
In canada, if you buy it from the right US discounter it's closer to a 45-50% discount.
45-50% discount is about what this crap is worth to be honest.
It's a box of unfinished plastic. It's almost like youre not even getting anything for your money.
GW wants us to pay insane prices so you can go home and do tons of fiddly often times annoying labour. Awesome
Guildsman wrote: This is all very upsetting, as its only perceivable goal is to hurt FLGSs. With the increasingly hostile changes to trade terms, it only makes sense if GW is trying to eventually eliminate all independent stockists. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see GW do away with all trade accounts in the next few years. Do any of the store owners on here have plans in place to deal with such a development?
Its litterally to force people to buy from GW or GW online without a discount. I can hazard a guess and say that GWs next contract will be "no discounts or sales"
GW's already done this.
The local FLGS used to have a buy 2 get 1 free deal on any wargaming product. Then GW said no more of that. Now its down to just a 10% discount.
Guildsman wrote: This is all very upsetting, as its only perceivable goal is to hurt FLGSs. With the increasingly hostile changes to trade terms, it only makes sense if GW is trying to eventually eliminate all independent stockists. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see GW do away with all trade accounts in the next few years. Do any of the store owners on here have plans in place to deal with such a development?
Its litterally to force people to buy from GW or GW online without a discount. I can hazard a guess and say that GWs next contract will be "no discounts or sales"
GW's already done this.
The local FLGS used to have a buy 2 get 1 free deal on any wargaming product. Then GW said no more of that. Now its down to just a 10% discount.
If they do it once in a while, like one weekend a month, or an email coupon to customers, GW can't do much/anything about it. I get a 25% off coupon in my email all the time-I work around that coupon, drop $150-200 at a time, and the store doesn't care that I always buy at discount, because I buy so much. I buy far more at discount than I would at full price (which wouldn't be much, if anything).
Looks like this policy wil be a further boon to the recasters abroad. I don't condone recasting; but your scofflaw gamer will only look at price point. Hell, Finecast looks like recasts anyway.
Could this all be a bit of a Knee Jerk reaction to the sales of Dark Vengeance v's The new Chaos and Dark angels Minis?
I mean who would build a Deathwing or Ravenwing army just from the £30+ box sets and who would buy one of the box sets for extra bits and a command squad and build the rest of the army from Dark Vengeance models with a few conversions along the way?
Same with the Chaos Minis. Who buys the 5 cultists for £6 as apposed to buying 10 on ebay for 7-8 quid?
Even the chosen, which in my opinion make for good single character models I knock em out all day long at £2 each. Or how much is the new plastic character from GW £12?
I am thinking this is more the case than any bits sellers. Even more so if they are due to release a new High Elves book as most folk will look to ebay for anything from the starter set again.
Also I am assuming here that the UK/EU have different trade laws to the US since we don't seem to have the no website rule over here that i know of?
Also I am assuming here that the UK/EU have different trade laws to the US since we don't seem to have the no website rule over here that i know of?
In many ways, I think it is easier for a producer in the EU to make their rules stick straight through the contract. Not sure about GW, but I remember hearing that DZC (Hawk Wargames) had a clause that prohibited retailers from offering more than 10% discount, must use the official copy, etc.. If you can add a clause like that, the whole round-about-approach of GW in the US becomes moot.
Also I am assuming here that the UK/EU have different trade laws to the US since we don't seem to have the no website rule over here that i know of?
In many ways, I think it is easier for a producer in the EU to make their rules stick straight through the contract. Not sure about GW, but I remember hearing that DZC (Hawk Wargames) had a clause that prohibited retailers from offering more than 10% discount, must use the official copy, etc.. If you can add a clause like that, the whole round-about-approach of GW in the US becomes moot.
Price Fixing is a Criminal act in most countries, including the EU.
I'll be a little surprised if GW gets back into the *bits* business. I just can't imagine them paying people to clip sprues, setting warehouse space aside, and taking on all the customer service aspects. Selling whole sprues is something I'd be more willing to believe, but of course that would be a major miscalculation for GW because that isn't what people are interested in, especially given how GW organizes its sprues these days.
Doomsdave wrote: Looks like this policy wil be a further boon to the recasters abroad. I don't condone recasting; but your scofflaw gamer will only look at price point. Hell, Finecast looks like recasts anyway.
I disagree. Some recasts are damn fine. Finecast, not so much.
At the end of the day, GW makes the call on who and how much you can sell thier products for.. but I agree, this "no online sales idea" might just be the opening volley that cuts out the LFGS. They are not supporting tourneys really anymore, have exclusive books that the retailer can't have and I am sure they are dealing with games stores going out of business left and right.. so they may be thinking long term... everything going to direct sales online.
Cutting out bitz resellers and worrying about recasters? A $200 million dollar company with a 20+ million profit in 2012? I don't think so...
No, this is a set up for a whole new way to business. They see the stores are dying, the economy is suffering and they want to pull an Amazon.
From the GW June investors report.. From the Chairman:
Looking closely at the trend lines reveals interesting strategic information. The gradient of the US growth changed dramatically when we switched from using distributors to going direct to retailers;
And when the LFGS Retail stores start closing? I'll bet we get a, "We had no choice but to go direct with the consumers. The retail shops failed us.."
The bitz stuff, the recasting police, the lack of support for the stores, controlling the stores discounts.. these are just the opening volleys.
Don't get me wrong, I love the GW stuff, I love the fluff and I grew up with it.. but at the end of the day, change is coming.
Most independent FLGS I've run across in the US don't seem to rely on GW products near as much as they did 10 years ago. I'd go so far as to assert that even though the FLGS doesn't want to loose the sales, they'll survive without it.
I don't think GW needs to wait to change to a directly only model. However, they will need to plan that well. Something they have never done regarding retail operations. Not that it won't stop them from trying. If the correct answer is shut down all their own stores in the USA and distribute to the USA FLGS, GW is sure to do the exact opposite. Then wonder why it didn't work. If they mess that up then they'll no longer be able to subsidize their UK retail operation with overseas revenue at least at the same level they do now from the US operations. That will bring GW down like a house of cards much faster than the worst GW hater could imagine.
What I'm getting at is the FLGS can live without GW. But does anyone really know if GW can survive in the US without the FLGS?
Never heard of these guys or this site, but his analysis is very much grounded in reasonable criticism based upon business specifics and not rage-filled hyperbole.
I find that I agree with his analysis that GW has the right to this and that GW thinks it will increase their profits... and I think his exceptions on why it won't work are also reasonable. Boils down to until it happens and the numbers crunch, we won't know the impact.
I very much agree with his commentary of 'full retail' and deep discounts. But he is right in regards to people without FLGS where it is not always mutually exclusive.
It is worth 26 minutes of your life to watch it. Better than reading this thread
He's right about the retail stores. I live in a small town and have zero local options for Games Workshop anything. I have to drive 2.5 hours to find anything.
Balance wrote: Of course, somecompanies are happy to place the most requested weapons and such up for individual order... (There's probably other companies I'm leaving out...)
GW is hiring a Bits Warehouse manager apparently, so you may be able to add a link to GW to that list...
When they're live.
...And actually, GW has for a while, they've just done the rather underwhelming 'bits packs' that were a step down from the era when nearly every cast piece or plastic sprue could be ordered individually if you wanted to pay.
nkelsch wrote: Never heard of these guys or this site, but his analysis is very much grounded in reasonable criticism based upon business specifics and not rage-filled hyperbole.
I find that I agree with his analysis that GW has the right to this and that GW thinks it will increase their profits... and I think his exceptions on why it won't work are also reasonable. Boils down to until it happens and the numbers crunch, we won't know the impact.
I very much agree with his commentary of 'full retail' and deep discounts. But he is right in regards to people without FLGS where it is not always mutually exclusive.
It is worth 26 minutes of your life to watch it. Better than reading this thread
Completely agree. It's a well-reasoned and properly explained position.
Balance wrote: ...And actually, GW has for a while, they've just done the rather underwhelming 'bits packs' that were a step down from the era when nearly every cast piece or plastic sprue could be ordered individually if you wanted to pay.
Oh, I remember those days. I remember them with so much fondness.
Much of the cool bits of my SOB army were bought through GW's bit service. (Swooping Hawk wings for Seraphim, redemptionists, etc.)
poda_t wrote: I'm at work. Can anyone do me the favor of running down what matt talks about?
Basically goes through the document already discussed: internet sales, exporting, Bitz.
The only new thing is that 'direct sales' is being limited to 500$ per month for trade partners, and apparently a lot of NEW RELEASES are being 'direct sales' only right out of the gate like Hobbit heroes and Chaos heroes. And his trade Rep's response was "We don't want stores stocking direct sales items."
Which his response was, "I'm not stocking them, I have 2500 to 5000$ of requests from customers for direct orders a month." to which he has not gotten a response.
So you get a situation where customers are being funneled to a FLGS, want to give the FLGS money to buy an item GW just released and the FLGS can't sell it to them as they cannot order more than 500$
(this is all 'new' and on the heels of the DftS issue)
poda_t wrote: I'm at work. Can anyone do me the favor of running down what matt talks about?
Really a run down of the trade agreement, and how the "reasons" given by GW in the agreement fall short of reasoned thought. Each of the reasons have been more or less covered here already, but it is a clear effect of the new terms and how it will impact things moving forward.
I really don't think GW thought this one through very thoroughly. First, it doesn't support it's customer base, because it only allows direct sales through its own website, which is a direct contradiction of supporting B&M stores since customers will want to support their own local B&M store, but, can't for obvious reasons. Bits services are probably going to drop and maybe increase in expense even though GW's not losing a penny off of the bits trade since they abandoned their own bits service a decade ago, and people are not willing to buy an entire box just to get one flashy part, and end up with 50% useless plastic/resin kits. With another price increase on the horizon for bad decisions and the prosecution of an ill advised and botched law suit, it's likely that people will be unwilling to continue spending on GW. If that's the case, there's a high chance that these people will be quitting and trying to earn a buck back, and sell off their second-hand armies... That in turn again cuts into GW's profits. As I see it, trying to kill the second hand market only fuels it further.....
I am guessing that GW did think about things already, and have come to a differrent conclusion.
In particular, if half of MWG customers go to GWs store, then GW ends up being at about a wash on the numbers at the end of the year, even if the other half quit GW entirely. It is even more beneficial if the customer is from Australia or other country outside the US or Canada due to higher prices they will be pushed into (or VAT collected unnescessarily so it equates to a 20% bonus).
Bits need an even lower turnover rate to end up with the same sales figures in terms of value.
It's a really good point about the website. Six years ago, when I started wargaming, I remember going through the macragge.games-workshop.com, skullpass.games-workshop.com (I think) and moria.games-workshop.com sites. They provided a basic overview of the game, and it helped me get started. Since they removed them, Miniwargaming has helped me get a feel for Warmachine and Fantasy. It's pretty damn shortsighted.
Even the various things like Black Gobbo that were run from within the constrants of the core website. One month of Black Gobbo articles had more than a years worth of the current sites format.
No company is ever been arrogant or "confident" enough to pull stunts like this over and over again... and still survive.
Except for all the companies that do... There are plenty of companies with ridiculously protective agreements for their product that are successful. How's Apple doing nowadays, I forget... Does that make it the right thing to do? Hell no, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't work.
As has been said, multiple times, in this thread: This makes no difference for bits sellers, as they don't buy from GW directly, makes little difference to anyone in the US (since the online thing was in effect since 2003) and only really changes things for folks in Canada (who now follow the same rules as the US). (Even the export business really doesn't change because that only restricts export for resale and not export to consumers.) It is a silly move on GW's part but that is more because it is essentially toothless and no big change to business as usual. Even the MWG guy says that them closing really has more to do with their business than GW.
As has been said, multiple times, in this thread: This makes no difference for bits sellers, as they don't buy from GW directly, makes little difference to anyone in the US (since the online thing was in effect since 2003) and only really changes things for folks in Canada (who now follow the same rules as the US).
Well, whether it affects bits sellers or not will depend on their intent and how far they're willing to take it. If they just intended to harm larger stores selling cheap bits, it'll probably do that. If they intend to stop most bits sales altogether, that's possible but it depends on how far they're willing to take it. Not much will change on that front if nobody feels threatened. They'd have to be willing to cut off a few of their biggest distributors and stores to make an example of them, if they plan to stifle most of the bits market.
pretre wrote: [(Even the export business really doesn't change because that only restricts export for resale and not export to consumers.)
Except that doesn't seem to be the case. The first line of the paragraph about domestic sales is "North American Retailers are only authorized to resell GAMES WORKSHOP products domestically in their respective countries of origin."
I think that pretty clearly means you can't export.
No company is ever been arrogant or "confident" enough to pull stunts like this over and over again... and still survive.
Except for all the companies that do... There are plenty of companies with ridiculously protective agreements for their product that are successful. How's Apple doing nowadays, I forget... Does that make it the right thing to do? Hell no, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't work.
Apple actually began its boom when they stopped their protective agreements and allowed big box stores to carry their products and online retailers to begin discounting. From Walmart to Amazon - the reason for their growth has nothing to do with protective trade agreements.
More to the point though, things like GW products depend on a growing user base not a shrinking one. It doesn't make a difference if you are the only person in your town who owns an Apple - you don't need another iThing to use it. GW products depend on a broad user base in order to maintain and grow the business. Tactics like what GW have been implementing have been causing their user base to shrink, all the while other game systems have been growing in terms of units sold and popularity of the systems.
Lets see what audacious excuse GW and the fans can pull our from their arse this time.
As has been said, multiple times, in this thread: This makes no difference for bits sellers, as they don't buy from GW directly, makes little difference to anyone in the US (since the online thing was in effect since 2003) and only really changes things for folks in Canada (who now follow the same rules as the US). (Even the export business really doesn't change because that only restricts export for resale and not export to consumers.) It is a silly move on GW's part but that is more because it is essentially toothless and no big change to business as usual. Even the MWG guy says that them closing really has more to do with their business than GW.
Except that it does stop export to consumers:
C. POLICY REGARDING DOMESTIC SALES ONLY North American Retailers are only authorized to resell GAMES WORKSHOP products domestically in their respective countries of origin. Accordingly, United States Retailers are prohibited from exporting GAMES WORKSHOP products for purposes resale to Consumers located outside of the United States. Similarly, Canadian Retailers are prohibited from exporting GAMES WORKSHOP products for purposes resale to Consumers located outside of Canada. Foreign sales of GAMES WORKSHOP products by Retailers can be disruptive to GAMES WORKSHOP’S vertical distribution networks in other countries.
Pretty clear. So, the poster who lived in Brazil can now only order through GW. A gamer who lives in South Africa can only order from GW. Australians are stuck paying the ludicrous prices that exist through GW Australia.
It also matters to bits sellers, as retailers can no longer sell to them based on the terms of the new contract and distributors can not sell to anyone who parts out products. While there will no doubt be some who continue to buy under the table - it is a definite change, and at the very least it will impact several of the larger dealers who actually have wholesale accounts with GW or a distributor.
What MWG actually says it isn't only because of GW, but it has a lot to do with GW. In fact what he actually says is that "It is not completely Games Workshop's fault. We've analyzed our numbers and over the past few years of doing this business and unfortunately the margins have just been too small and the investment has been too high, whereas other parts of our business like the MiniWar Gaming Vault have grown significantly and they require some of our attention as well and some of our investment. But the store has been eating up a lot of that investment. But we weren't going to shut down the store until Games Workshop updated their trade agreement which would probably effectively cut off 70-80% of our Games Workshop sales, which would make the store not just barely profitable but actually become in the negative".
Now, I think he was trying to be gracious in saying it wasn't just GW's new terms that caused them to decide to close the doors - but the reasoning which was given after he said "not completely" GW's fault pretty well demonstrates that...it was completely GW's new trade terms.
The teeth as always is the threat to cut off your supply of GW products. If a person has to think if they should risk selling to a customer who has been regular and loyal for a long time versus potentially having a major supplier stop supplying them with products - they would not be at fault for deciding to cease doing business with them. It doesn't matter if they are selling to them at full retail price or not, the terms forbid a store from selling to another business. If they do, and GW were to catch wind of it - GW can cancel their contract. That could push a lot of stores that depend on GW products over the edge and force them to shut down entirely. If they depend on their game business as their livelihood - there are some definite teeth to the contract.
Sean_OBrien wrote: Apple actually began its boom when they stopped their protective agreements and allowed big box stores to carry their products and online retailers to begin discounting. From Walmart to Amazon - the reason for their growth has nothing to do with protective trade agreements.
And yet they were successful (and are still successful) with protective agreements. I wasn't just talking about big box store agreements. Although I'm sure you'll find there are quite a few caveats to all of those.
More to the point though, things like GW products depend on a growing user base not a shrinking one.
I agree
Tactics like what GW have been implementing have been causing their user base to shrink,
Unsupported statement. Where is the data that GW user bases have been shrinking?
Except that it does stop export to consumers:
C. POLICY REGARDING DOMESTIC SALES ONLY North American Retailers are only authorized to resell GAMES WORKSHOP products domestically in their respective countries of origin. Accordingly, United States Retailers are prohibited from exporting GAMES WORKSHOP products for purposes resale to Consumers located outside of the United States. Similarly, Canadian Retailers are prohibited from exporting GAMES WORKSHOP products for purposes resale to Consumers located outside of Canada. Foreign sales of GAMES WORKSHOP products by Retailers can be disruptive to GAMES WORKSHOP’S vertical distribution networks in other countries.
I underlined the part I'm talking about. As long as the person in the other country is not reselling, you're golden.
The teeth as always is the threat to cut off your supply of GW products.
Except the people, as we said, who run bits stores, don't buy directly from GW for the most part. Those that do will fall out, those that don't don't care. See EmpChild's posts on the subject.
pretre wrote: I underlined the part I'm talking about. As long as the person in the other country is not reselling, you're golden.
The sentence immediately before that one says that sellers can only sell domestically.
The part about the customer reselling is redundant, since if you can't sell to anyone outside the US or Canada anyway, it makes no difference whether or not they are intending to sell the product onwards.
C. POLICY REGARDING DOMESTIC SALES ONLY North American Retailers are only authorized to resell GAMES WORKSHOP products domestically in their respective countries of origin. Accordingly, United States Retailers are prohibited from exporting GAMES WORKSHOP products for purposes resale to Consumers located outside of the United States. Similarly, Canadian Retailers are prohibited from exporting GAMES WORKSHOP products for purposes resale to Consumers located outside of Canada. Foreign sales of GAMES WORKSHOP products by Retailers can be disruptive to GAMES WORKSHOP’S vertical distribution networks in other countries.
I underlined the part I'm talking about. As long as the person in the other country is not reselling, you're golden.
The teeth as always is the threat to cut off your supply of GW products.
Except the people, as we said, who run bits stores, don't buy directly from GW for the most part. Those that do will fall out, those that don't don't care. See EmpChild's posts on the subject.
The first sale is GW to anyone (distributor, retailer...). They then resell the product in a retail environment. A consumer is not a business - they are the end user. If they meant resale to business - they would have used that terminology like they did here:
Retailers are permitted to resell GAMES WORKSHOP products to Consumers only. Retailers are prohibited from reselling GAMES WORKSHOP products to other Retailers, distributors or any other non-Consumer customers.
I have seen his posts, but to be honest - the mud hasn't hit the fan and it is easy for Bob the GW supplier to say...sure, we will continue to supply you right now. When the terms go into effect and he has to consider loosing his supplier, he may end up changing his position. Even if some continue, I would imagine half will probably loose their suppliers and that dramatic drop in supply will cause a corresponding increase in price (or just create a vacuum where people are waiting to get choice bits even longer than now).
Sorry, as a layman - and I've looked through the last few pages and read the Sean/Insaniak/pretre discussion - what is the result of Games-Workshops new policy, and how is it looking to effect the hope/availability?
If anyone could summarise, as I'm still confused, that would be great.
- No Internet Sales for Canada
- No sales by retailers to people outside the country the retailer is in.
- No sales of GW kits outside of the packaging (I.e. No Bits)
There isn't much more rest left - other than the hope that bits suppliers will continue to be able to get a supply of goods following the implementation of the new terms.
That is all it is is a hope. Right now, based on the terms as they are written - they will not continue to get their products (based on the B2B clause of the contract). Companies like Battlewagon Bits (The Warstore), Spikey Bits (FTW Games) and others are done - no questions on that...they have trade accounts with GW. The others will be relying on a supply who puts their livelihood at risk by selling them their product, something which I can't imagine will not impact the market at all. Considering that those are 2 of the top three listed companies for "gamesworkshop bits" (and other versions like warhammer bits, 40k bits...) I would say that that will be a significant impact even if no other companies are impacted.
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Just Dave wrote: Sorry, as a layman - and I've looked through the last few pages and read the Sean/Insaniak/pretre discussion - what is the result of Games-Workshops new policy, and how is it looking to effect the hope/availability?
If anyone could summarise, as I'm still confused, that would be great.
If you are in the UK (as it would seem) and use primarily UK/EU sources - no change as these terms are for North American retailers only.
pretre wrote: - No Internet Sales for Canada
- No sales by retailers to people outside the country the retailer is in.
- No sales of GW kits outside of the packaging (I.e. No Bits)
Wow. Thanks for the summary, pretre, much appreciated. Sounds pretty nasty for non-GW stores.
Happygrunt wrote: I heard Wayland games is going to try and create a "Union" to try and negotiate with GW.
Honestly, that dosen't seem like a terrible idea, although I don't think it will work.
Provided that they had enough clout behind them, and the will to follow through with things - it would. If the half dozen or so big companies who make up the majority of the current distance selling were to stop ordering GW products for a month, it would get their attention. Actions like that though can hurt the retailer, but anything short of that would likely be ignored by GW's management.
Happygrunt wrote: I heard Wayland games is going to try and create a "Union" to try and negotiate with GW.
Honestly, that dosen't seem like a terrible idea, although I don't think it will work.
Provided that they had enough clout behind them, and the will to follow through with things - it would. If the half dozen or so big companies who make up the majority of the current distance selling were to stop ordering GW products for a month, it would get their attention. Actions like that though can hurt the retailer, but anything short of that would likely be ignored by GW's management.
So who would join Wayland? The likes of Frontline gaming and The War Store?
Happygrunt wrote: I heard Wayland games is going to try and create a "Union" to try and negotiate with GW.
Honestly, that dosen't seem like a terrible idea, although I don't think it will work.
Provided that they had enough clout behind them, and the will to follow through with things - it would. If the half dozen or so big companies who make up the majority of the current distance selling were to stop ordering GW products for a month, it would get their attention. Actions like that though can hurt the retailer, but anything short of that would likely be ignored by GW's management.
So who would join Wayland? The likes of Frontline gaming and The War Store?
Wayland is the big one in Europe as I understand it. The War Store (and their attached distributor), Miniature Market, FRP (and their attached distributor), maybe a larger representative from Australia (The Combat Company I think is good sized). I would have said MiniWar Gaming as well for Canada - though, well - they have already decided to stop buying GW products. I know there are several other stores which deal online and do a substantial amount of business in GW products (or have a dog in the fight in terms of their bits business) - but that would probably account for 10-15% of the sales in North America and whatever impact it might be in Australia and the UK/EU (less connected to their markets - but fairly confident based on what I know about the US market).
Honestly though, any company who feels they can afford to drop GW products would help the cause. It would need to be somewhat coordinated, and it would help if there wasn't a specific warning to GW. I wouldn't even approach them to negotiate terms until it had gone a couple weeks without an order and the management started to get rattled about boxes piling up in the warehouses (perhaps just prior to the close of the FY as that would cause the stock holdovers to need to be reported in their annual report - which would cause share holders to look at what might be odd a bit more than they would normally).
Hi my names 5 Deadly I’ve been GW free since 2004.
I know it’s a hard habit to Kick. I would find myself at a local hobby shop… standing in front of the Game Workshop rack… trying hard not to give in, not to buckle under the weight of buying that new plastic kit…
“I’ve got enough models” I’d tell myself “so many unpainted models” so I switch to Bits buys… short quick purchases… it’d give me my fix… started out simple a Sword here, a Head there, “I’ll just make some INQ28” I’d tell myself, helping to relieve the guilt. Hiding my purchases from my family in shame.
But since Games Workshops complete ban of bits sale I’ve truly kicked the habit. I’m free… No more late night warstore surfing for that ultimate conversion… hoping necrons would get an opening in the bits department…
I’m free from the tyranny of King George III, I mean Games Workshop….
I know other companies don’t have the level of depth or awesome backstories. But if we can get one of these companies to survive and thrive for more than a decade they might.
My Names 5 Deadly I’m GW free and every day is a gift now, that why they call it “the present”…
Listen man, I say this as a friend. The first couple of times he did his thing and showed up into a thread and dropped a big stinky turd on it, it was his fault. But all those subsequent times that you read his "postings" instead of ignoring him kind were yours
There's no rule against dropping childlike strawmen into a thread over and over again and unceasingly providing nearly 100% noise to 0% signal. The only remedy is pretending there is no such person, which I heartily recommend
Ouze wrote: There's no rule against dropping childlike strawmen into a thread over and over again and unceasingly providing nearly 100% noise to 0% signal. The only remedy is pretending there is no such person, which I heartily recommend
Yes but he does it with such gusto and such wild oblivious abandon. It’s so much fun!
"This case, Kirtsaeng v. Wiley, specifically concerned the re-sale of textbooks in the U.S. The first sale doctrine, described in section 109 of the U.S. Copyright Act, gives people the right to resell, lend, or give away the works that they’ve bought, even if those works contain copyrighted elements. Textbook publisher Wiley claimed that this doctrine only applies to goods that are manufactured in the U.S., and that the defendant, Supap Kirtsaeng, was infringing its copyright by purchasing books at a reduced rate in his native Thailand and selling them below list price in the States."
"we hold that the 'first sale' doctrine applies to copies of a copyrighted work lawfully made abroad." - Opinion of the US Supreme Court
First sale doctrine doesn't apply here, like, at all.
You're free to buy a kit for full retail from GWS and do whatever you like with it. We're talking about a change in the US terms of trade, just as it says in the topic - GWS is free to put further restrictions upon who they sell to at a discount under a trade account, and the retailer is free not to enter into a contract with them.
"This case, Kirtsaeng v. Wiley, specifically concerned the re-sale of textbooks in the U.S. The first sale doctrine, described in section 109 of the U.S. Copyright Act, gives people the right to resell, lend, or give away the works that they’ve bought, even if those works contain copyrighted elements. Textbook publisher Wiley claimed that this doctrine only applies to goods that are manufactured in the U.S., and that the defendant, Supap Kirtsaeng, was infringing its copyright by purchasing books at a reduced rate in his native Thailand and selling them below list price in the States."
"we hold that the 'first sale' doctrine applies to copies of a copyrighted work lawfully made abroad." - Opinion of the US Supreme Court
It has nothing to do with this though. If you buy a GW kit you can resell it and break it apart and resell it to your heart's content. If, however, you bought that kit from a GW trade account, GW now has written in to their terms that they can stop selling to you if you do. If you are a retailer yourself but bought the kit from someone who has a trade account rather than from a GW trade account, the person you are buying from can have their account canceled. If you bought from GW directly, GW can, if they want, refuse you service if you decide to buy 20 boxes of X each month if they believe you are using it to sell bits (or for any other reason).
It has nothing to do with copyright or first sale doctrine. Once you've bought something you can do whatever the hell you want with it, the problem is that depending on where and how you bought the thing, GW may stop doing business with you or your supplier if you do resell it and they are within their rights to stop doing business with you just as you are within your rights to resell it.
I read this thread from start to finish. Many of the comments that have been made are being made with incomplete knowledge of the new GW trade policies. The distribution side of things has not been mentioned. There are 3 independent distributors of GW product in the US. The distribution documents state that independent distributors will not be able to sell to those retailers and others that GW says are breaking the trade policies. This includes the selling of bits, and maintaining an online shopping cart. GW is saying that they will enforce those provisions by not allowing the independent distributors to sell to those retailers, bits sellers and others that do not follow the GW trade policies. If the independent distributors get caught selling to those that violate the GW trade terms, then they will loose their distribution contracts.
Here is the link to those documents:
Southernbabe wrote: GW is saying that they will enforce those provisions by not allowing the independent distributors to sell to those retailers, bits sellers and others that do not follow the GW trade policies. If the independent distributors get caught selling to those that violate the GW trade terms, then they will loose their distribution contracts.
If GW thinks they can bully distributors - distributors they need for an area and population the size of the US - then they really don't know what they're getting themselves into.
@Empchild -- no. I found it in a search and thought it appropriate to this discussion. I have lurked on the Dakka Dakka forums for a long time without joining.
Southernbabe wrote: GW is saying that they will enforce those provisions by not allowing the independent distributors to sell to those retailers, bits sellers and others that do not follow the GW trade policies. If the independent distributors get caught selling to those that violate the GW trade terms, then they will loose their distribution contracts.
If GW thinks they can bully distributors - distributors they need for an area and population the size of the US - then they really don't know what they're getting themselves into.
That depends on if the distributors are in a position of power and can play hard ball. If GW is a big part of any of their businesses then they may not risk it, they may find that a large chunk 10-20% of their sales would disappear if they don't sign on rather than the 1-2% that would go from the bitsellers and suspected bit sellers.
If you're going to have to fire 50 guys from your company to attempt to make some random gamers happy, I'd rather 50 guys don't end up unemployed.
To be pretty blunt, none of these changes should come as a suprise to any good business man. The bitz policy is in force in the UK at least (not sure on Europe), the international sales ban is in force in UKEU already and the no shopping cart is in force in the USA for the past ten years. Mini wargaming, to use as a example should have expected and planned for the shopping cart ban to come into force and the retailers in US should have planned for the international sales ban, there is preceedent already there for the changes in the T&C's.
Southernbabe wrote: GW is saying that they will enforce those provisions by not allowing the independent distributors to sell to those retailers, bits sellers and others that do not follow the GW trade policies. If the independent distributors get caught selling to those that violate the GW trade terms, then they will loose their distribution contracts.
If GW thinks they can bully distributors - distributors they need for an area and population the size of the US - then they really don't know what they're getting themselves into.
That depends on if the distributors are in a position of power and can play hard ball. If GW is a big part of any of their businesses then they may not risk it, they may find that a large chunk 10-20% of their sales would disappear if they don't sign on rather than the 1-2% that would go from the bitsellers and suspected bit sellers.
If you're going to have to fire 50 guys from your company to attempt to make some random gamers happy, I'd rather 50 guys don't end up unemployed.
I agree with that, a lot of companies cannot afford to lose a large sales revenue, and seeing as GW is one of the biggest hobby manufacturers this may well be the case.
In regards to the comment before about Wayland Games wanting to create a 'union', it seems more to me like a publicity stunt rather then anything meaningful, after the malestrom debacle there isnt many UK suppliers, IMO, (who are also their competitors) who would want to 'partner' with Waylands, as for international stores 'partnering' with them I cant see the point as the UK entity is totally different to the US entity in terms of everything really.
MarkyMark wrote: To be pretty blunt, none of these changes should come as a suprise to any good business man. The bitz policy is in force in the UK at least (not sure on Europe), the international sales ban is in force in UKEU already and the no shopping cart is in force in the USA for the past ten years. Mini wargaming, to use as a example should have expected and planned for the shopping cart ban to come into force and the retailers in US should have planned for the international sales ban, there is preceedent already there for the changes in the T&C's.
the loss of the cart isnt the major problem, thats been worked around for 10 years now and can easily be done. its the no shipping outside your countries borders, that tends to make a hash of it. add to that the sad and pathetic reasoning that in reality is a total joke. Add to that, as he says the condescending way that 'GW online store is the only really safe and secure way to do online sales.' i mean WHAT? dont trust amazon, etc those guys are shady as come to us at GW? i mean come on haha
I therefore withdraw my statements as anything but an obviously uneducated opinion. Still don't understand why they would even bother though.
. Look plain and simple I am ignoring this from 
Completely agree. It's a well-reasoned and properly explained position.
