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 poda_t wrote:


i believe the hope here though is that the companies that do get off the ground via kickstarter do end up in stores. Many that run their KS right, will have special expensive packages that only stores can support, which provide multiple copies of the game system for the store.. so in that sense, it cuts two ways.

And as part of my personal spending habits, post my own KS hangover... I am now tuned in to this type of FLGS support in backer levels so hopefully if I do support a Kickstarter, I don't feel the need to load up all at once and possibly even get my product via a store-based pledge.

But I feel the number of KS actively moving to support FLGS and not undercut them is few and far between... Mainly because many simply don't need or don't want distribution, or don't have an attached game system which needs to be promoted to drive sales.

I do feel like 2012's kickstarter hangover in the end, harmed FLGS badly. While many KS seem to be failing now and people are getting worn out with many vendors and seeing what timelines and product deliveries are possible and which are not, we may see a more moderated KS system int he future, but I still don't see a lot of KS people moving to drive their sales via FLGS. If GW is gonna recoup raw profit of 35+% by direct sales, so will all these smaller KS companies, and they damn well know it.

Orktavius wrote:
Yup...that WEBSTORE called MINIWARGAMING.COM sure did sell $5000 worth of it OVER THE INTERNET.

That 'webstore' is a brick and mortar store that also sells online...

Who they are going after are companies like miniwargaming or the warstore or other online retailers that bits out their stock (lowering the perceived value of GW's product) and webstores in general as they severely damage the business of GW's brick and mortar only trade accounts.

Again with this 'lowering the perceived value by not using pretty packaging' claim. When you buy any of the very limited range of bits that they still offer, or any of the direct-only minis directly from GW, do you know how they come?

The perceived value thing is a made-up non-issue.

...the most popular characters aren't direct only ,

Yeah, nobody actually plays Deathwing armies...

Same with conversion kits, how many of those do you really need...and more importantly than that, how many do you think get sold on a monthly basis? Do you REALLY believe the turnover is enough that GW should spend thousands of dollars storing enough extra conversion kits for it to be stocked by brick and mortar stores? The answer is a resounding bloody no it's not worth it, the sales don't justify the expense of stocking enough just like it doesn't justify the expense of stocking that much of pretty much anything on the direct order list.

Wait, wasn't the sale of parts so huge that it's driving all of the FLGSs that don't sell online out of business a minute ago?

As for bloodbowl and specialist games.....REALLY? You really want to use those as an example? Every one of those specialist games was overall only marginally more successful than dreadfleet, people play them for a time then go back to 40k or fantasy. Find one Brick and mortar retailer that consistently sells bloodbowl starters month after month that's not a web seller. I'm willing to bet you won't find one.

Starters? I have no idea. But I do know that at least down here Bloodbowl has a thriving tournament scene, and more and more companies are producing fantasy football miniatures to make up for the non-support from GW.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:

Maybe gaming clubs + online sales is the future of our hobby?

While I don't arbitrarily wish for anyone to go out of business... if this is how the market happens, it may be how things happen. A company can wrangle direct sales and then appeal to sponsoring Indy events like larger gaming conventions and clubs without needing to pay a % out for retail product selling. They can get people playing the game, word of mouth advertising and pools of players via an online community and event/club sponsorship.

It does feel very much that some companies seem to be taking this stance which in the end could cut the FLGS out of the loop, especially with the Kickstarter model and online distribution.

Not saying right or wrong, but it does seem not every mini retailer seems driven to drive all sales and gameplay via FLGSs.

Orktavius wrote:
Obviously trying to point out that GW is trying to protect it's brick and mortar trade partners who don't have a webstore or don't discount is pointless here.

Given that it's patently false given the actual evidence at hand, yes, pretty much.

And to be perfectly honest, if some stores choose, in this day and age, to not sell online, why the hell should everyone else be expected to similarly limit themselves? If I open a game store and decide that I only want to be open on tuesdays, should my suppliers institute that as a rule for all of their other trade accounts as well on the grounds that I won't be able to compete with stores that choose to be open longer?

The whole concept of restricting how and to whom a store can sell is ridiculous.

nkelsch wrote:

 AgeOfEgos wrote:

Maybe gaming clubs + online sales is the future of our hobby?

While I don't arbitrarily wish for anyone to go out of business... if this is how the market happens, it may be how things happen. A company can wrangle direct sales and then appeal to sponsoring Indy events like larger gaming conventions and clubs without needing to pay a % out for retail product selling. They can get people playing the game, word of mouth advertising and pools of players via an online community and event/club sponsorship.

It does feel very much that some companies seem to be taking this stance which in the end could cut the FLGS out of the loop, especially with the Kickstarter model and online distribution.

Not saying right or wrong, but it does seem not every mini retailer seems driven to drive all sales and gameplay via FLGSs.

Keep in mind that that isn't entirely the mini retailer (I assume you mean manufacturer). A brick and mortar game store has a limited amount of space that it can use to stock products for sale. Most would be hard pressed to carry the core line of the top 5 games - let alone the thousand or so which come after that. Historical gamers have long since been pushed out of the local game stores (with a few exceptions) in favor of high dollar products with higher margins. The retailer is motivated to make the most money possible with the least expenditure, which also causes traditional miniature games to be pushed to back corners in favor of CCGs and CMGs.

All of those factors lead to a situation where a start up game company should feel no obligation to drive sales to a LGS if they feel that they can make a legitimate go of things using other distribution methods. Lower overheads, broader markets and longer business hours (i.e. - never closing) can allow online superstores to sell hundreds of niche game lines. Those factors allow manufacturers to field terms which are better suited for them (they can get away with a 30% discount as opposed to a 40 or 45% discount) and allow a large firm to handle sales and distribution for them. Take a look through an online store like FRP games or Noble Knight at the stock which they offer and consider how much of that you might be able to fit into your local store even if they did away with all their game tables and had only retail space?

I have tried to keep up with all the posts but failed so this may have been covered. Another thought had occurred to me about the new policy. As some have been selling product without the box at a deep discount the bits business may be and unfortunate casualty in the attempt to close a “shopping cart” loophole.

niceguyteddy wrote:
I have tried to keep up with all the posts but failed so this may have been covered. Another thought had occurred to me about the new policy. As some have been selling product without the box at a deep discount the bits business may be and unfortunate casualty in the attempt to close a “shopping cart” loophole.

and it's openeing a new dangerous loophole, with the legal case in the US on shaky legs, if CHS wins..... what the hell is GW going to do to stop the market that booms afterward? I pointed this out once, but it bears repeating, if the 3rd party custom parts from anvil industries, scibor or CHS become cheaper (even though they're not the same "high" quality hideous gak that's comprised of skulled skulls so we can enjoy your skulls while we enjoy our skulls), then how is GW helping itself? I don't see GW stopping anything, just spurring the market further and spawning more second hand and third party manufacturers. I mean, how long until FW is cheaper than GW?

 BitWraith wrote:
AIG didn't go out of business either.

So ... who's going to bail out GW?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BitWraith wrote:
AIG didn't go out of business either.

So ... who's going to bail out GW?

The non-GW gaming stores they're screwing over.

niceguyteddy wrote:
New GW terms for trade accounts prohibits sales of items not in their original packaging as well as a few other shenanigans. Thoughts for bits sellers?

Actually, this would also mean that commision painters could be out of business. You certainly wouldn't be able to sell painted armies online if you had signed this agreement.

It only affects commission painters if they are buying their minis direct from GW US on a trade account.

Orktavius wrote:
Obviously trying to point out that GW is trying to protect it's brick and mortar trade partners who don't have a webstore or don't discount is pointless here.

I'm sorry that we are incapable of suspending our perception of reality to see how limiting direct sales to $500 (or around 20 models) is beneficial to the FLGS I'm not even talking about MWG and it's claimed $5k of sales. I know my local FLGS used to sell more than $500 of metal/resin models in a month and he was only small. $500 is bugger all.

If GW ran the company the way you people wanted them to they would be out of business within 5 years.

You mean if they ran their company like they did during their largest growth? Erm, ok. Most of us here aren't arguing that GW need to do something exceptional and new or something that is poor business, just stop treating FLGS and customers like crap like they did back in the good old days when they were on the rise to being the dominant wargaming company.

I'm going back to looking at pretty models and have fun, enjoy wallowing if your circle-jerk of collective uninformed hate.

Good for you, though I'd describe it more as reasonably well informed hate, and we shall all continue to enjoy wargames and despise the actions of GW without your "insight".

I'm going back to looking at pretty models and have fun, enjoy wallowing if your circle-jerk of collective uninformed hate.

And the White Knight of the Week award goes to... Orktavious!

The title of the OP needs to be changed. The more concerned topic the interent has touched on is

"GW is limiting its direct sales products for FLGS (except GW stores) to $500/month"

and

"GW is banning website in North America to sell GW products (except for GW website)"

Both of these policies IS unfair trade practice. I know GW owns the creation/production/distribution of its products but to do so after FLGS spends time and effort to build up your customer base and then hang them out like that is bad business.

I recall dakkadakka was once a FLAG but closed down due to GW's 'its their products so they can do whatever they want' business policy too.

wufai wrote:
I recall dakkadakka was once a FLGS

True.

but closed down due to GW's 'its their products so they can do whatever they want' business policy too.

Citation needed.

 pretre wrote:


Citation needed.

Oh... can I plug my citiation to the D6 Generation's paid podcast series The Lost Chapters Book37? I can't vouch for their accuracy but it is a good listen no the less for those who are really interested in the topic.

wufai wrote:

 pretre wrote:


Citation needed.

Oh... can I plug my citiation to the D6 Generation's paid podcast series The Lost Chapters Book37? I can't vouch for their accuracy but it is a good listen no the less for those who are really interested in the topic.

So you're saying in that podcast, someone reliable (I'm assuming Russ) says that the reason DakkaDakka (the brick and mortar version in Manchester) closed down was GW's business policy? I was always under the assumption (correct or incorrect) that it had a lot more to do with rent vs income, but hey... (And that's a pay episode, so I will concede the point since I can't listen to it.)

 pretre wrote:

wufai wrote:

 pretre wrote:


Citation needed.

Oh... can I plug my citiation to the D6 Generation's paid podcast series The Lost Chapters Book37? I can't vouch for their accuracy but it is a good listen no the less for those who are really interested in the topic.

So you're saying in that podcast, someone reliable (I'm assuming Russ) says that the reason DakkaDakka (the brick and mortar version in Manchester) closed down was GW's business policy? I was always under the assumption (correct or incorrect) that it had a lot more to do with rent vs income, but hey... (And that's a pay episode, so I will concede the point since I can't listen to it.)

Whoa you might be right. I'm going to retract my statment that the DakkaDakka (store) didn't close down solely because of GW, but bad business practices was definely applied by GW.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
If you want to change GW put some money into a kickstarter to BUY GW.
Call it the GW fan trust or whatever.
Any attempts at a united front to a boycott with fail and gw won't notice.

And any attempts at a "GW fan trust" are going to be as pathetically disjointed as the current corporate management.

I cannot think of more than maybe ten people from this forum I would feel comfortable with having any kind of managerial position at a major corporation. I certainly would not want to see a corporation being run by a "collective" that cannot even make up their mind on whether or not a certain rule works as it is written or if there is some kind of "intention" for the rule.

Damn near fell out of my chair, reading this.

 pretre wrote:
So you're saying in that podcast, someone reliable (I'm assuming Russ) says that the reason DakkaDakka (the brick and mortar version in Manchester) closed down was GW's business policy?

From memory, Russ sold the store some time before it closed down.

I stand by that. Unless something changes in the ownership nothing will change.

 insaniak wrote:
It only affects commission painters if they are buying their minis direct from GW US on a trade account.

Or any Trade Account that provides them for resale. Like if they buy from the FLGS, paint and then sell the mini.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:
It may be anecdotal--but every LGS (4 in my area) plus the online stores I frequently use (Discount Games Inc. and The Warstore) have all had issues getting proper stock levels from Privateer. A cursory search on The Warstore right now displays this;

http://www.thewarstore.com/PrivateerPressOrderDelays.html

This has been an ongoing issue with PP for some time. Partly, I'm sure due to demand increasing as gamers move away from Fantasy and other tabletop games. Partly, I would theory, is due to poor planning.

Cant find a reference to that link at all on the Warstore site itself, at least where I would see it ordering PP products, you sure that's not from a couple of years ago ?

 AgeOfEgos wrote:
Maybe gaming clubs + online sales is the future of our hobby?

As someone who moves every few years, I hope not, its hard enough now getting new groups.

 BitWraith wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BitWraith wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
Right..... MWG was doing $2k-$5k worth of direct order stuff from their brick and mortar store, not the online store they ran...gotcha.

Obviously trying to point out that GW is trying to protect it's brick and mortar trade partners who don't have a webstore or don't discount is pointless here. If GW ran the company the way you people wanted them to they would be out of business within 5 years.

I'm going back to looking at pretty models and have fun, enjoy wallowing if your circle-jerk of collective uninformed hate.

I read that GW did 20 Mil last year. Doesn't sound like going out of business is imminent.

AIG went from a $3.1b profit at the end of 2007 to a $99bn loss in 2008.
Have fun with your assumption.

AIG didn't go out of business either.

If you take a look at AIG's financial statements you'll notice that of their $99B loss, they have unrealized losses on swaps of $28B, another $23B in derivative losses, some impairment of $51B, and depreciation and amortization of approx $15B. Financial derivatives can make you a lot of money or you can lose your shirt. AIG has a very different risk tolerance than what GW has. I didn't see that GW has entered into any interest rate swaps, derivative contracts, and I can't figure out what GW would impair other than their own fixed assets or possibly their core games in which they capitalize labor and other expenses. If they had the same level of risk tolerance as AIG, there wouldn't have been a 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th edition for anyone to complain about. If you are hedging your risks right, you trade volatility for a fixed price. While you may spend more or less than the market, you're able to plan and set your expenses based upon fixed rates rather than hope and pray that materials costs don't sky rocket.

http://www.aig.com/Chartis/internet/US/en/2008annualreport_tcm3171-440902.pdf

Check out page 203 of their financial statements and you'll see what I'm referencing when it comes to AIG's facts and figures.

 insaniak wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So you're saying in that podcast, someone reliable (I'm assuming Russ) says that the reason DakkaDakka (the brick and mortar version in Manchester) closed down was GW's business policy?

From memory, Russ sold the store some time before it closed down.

Right and he sold because he wanted more family time, iirc. Which is why his story doesn't sound right.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:
It may be anecdotal--but every LGS (4 in my area) plus the online stores I frequently use (Discount Games Inc. and The Warstore) have all had issues getting proper stock levels from Privateer. A cursory search on The Warstore right now displays this;

http://www.thewarstore.com/PrivateerPressOrderDelays.html

This has been an ongoing issue with PP for some time. Partly, I'm sure due to demand increasing as gamers move away from Fantasy and other tabletop games. Partly, I would theory, is due to poor planning.

I'm sorry, but that link is from December 2010...

At least from as far back as mid-2011 there haven't been any reports of anyone experiencing any difficulty getting a hold of PP miniatures, AFAIK.

would commision painters be affected? iv been thinking, they ar ethe end user and selling second hand products, but in that case they CANT hold a trade account anyway, but you can bet your $$ they have already got a way around this

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
would commision painters be affected? iv been thinking, they ar ethe end user and selling second hand products, but in that case they CANT hold a trade account anyway, but you can bet your $$ they have already got a way around this

If they pull any crap with a commission painting company or individual, the painter can simply state 'please note, you are paying for the materials, time and artistic skills of the work, the miniature it's self is gifted'.

Legally tight.

PhantomViper wrote:

 AgeOfEgos wrote:
It may be anecdotal--but every LGS (4 in my area) plus the online stores I frequently use (Discount Games Inc. and The Warstore) have all had issues getting proper stock levels from Privateer. A cursory search on The Warstore right now displays this;

http://www.thewarstore.com/PrivateerPressOrderDelays.html

This has been an ongoing issue with PP for some time. Partly, I'm sure due to demand increasing as gamers move away from Fantasy and other tabletop games. Partly, I would theory, is due to poor planning.

I'm sorry, but that link is from December 2010...

At least from as far back as mid-2011 there haven't been any reports of anyone experiencing any difficulty getting a hold of PP miniatures, AFAIK.

There is ALWAYS a lot of out of stocks from Privateer. Sometimes just a couple of dozen, more often a good percentage of the line. I try to stock all privateer models, and we re-order once a week, and can track our out of stocks. Every distributor has restock problems from them.

Its a good game and good line of figures. Yes, we can all get ahold of pp figures. NO, you can't ever get all of them. Many figures go out of stock for months.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
would commision painters be affected? iv been thinking, they ar ethe end user and selling second hand products, but in that case they CANT hold a trade account anyway, but you can bet your $$ they have already got a way around this

Pretty sure GW is not worried about commission painters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Old Man Ultramarine wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
If you want to change GW put some money into a kickstarter to BUY GW.
Call it the GW fan trust or whatever.
Any attempts at a united front to a boycott with fail and gw won't notice.

And any attempts at a "GW fan trust" are going to be as pathetically disjointed as the current corporate management.

I cannot think of more than maybe ten people from this forum I would feel comfortable with having any kind of managerial position at a major corporation. I certainly would not want to see a corporation being run by a "collective" that cannot even make up their mind on whether or not a certain rule works as it is written or if there is some kind of "intention" for the rule.

Damn near fell out of my chair, reading this.

Yes, this one made me laugh.

 mikhaila wrote:

There is ALWAYS a lot of out of stocks from Privateer. Sometimes just a couple of dozen, more often a good percentage of the line. I try to stock all privateer models, and we re-order once a week, and can track our out of stocks. Every distributor has restock problems from them.

Its a good game and good line of figures. Yes, we can all get ahold of pp figures. NO, you can't ever get all of them. Many figures go out of stock for months.

I stand corrected then, thanks for your insight as always.

I find it odd that none of the shops over here have said anything about those problems nor have any of the players that I know of. And believe me back in 2010-2011, people WERE complaining loud and frequently about it.

And since we have your attention, could you perhaps confirm or deny Matt's claims that direct only orders from GW are capped at 500$?