If you are having a rough time being slayed by random high rolls then do what we do...cover the board in hoards of undead! No one will have time to fight each other as you will be too busy being eaten by zombies!!
However, we never over the course of the last 4-player game for example, saw a single model get taken down by attritional damage. It was either meaningless pokes, or full 10+ point hits and kills.
I really suspect you are not determining damage properly.
The cheapest Thug has an armor value of 10. Not only would you have to fail the opposed toll to get hit, but that modified roll would have to be 20 or higher to take him out in a single hit. You subtract the armor values from the modified attack roll. Most soldiers in the game are rocking a whole +2 to that roll, and armor values of 10+. Which would mean that the cheapest human soldier is injured on a 11-17, and taken out on a 18-20 .
That's the first thing I noticed. I don't think Killionaire was actually playing the rules, or his dice are incredibly weighted. It's very difficult to kill any model in one roll, as adamsouza demonstrated. In fact, the reason why having an armor value of greater than 10 or wounds greater than 10 makes a model much, much better because even on a devastating hit the slightly higher armor or slightly higher wounds will make a model only be injured instead of killed. Getting just a few points more in armor and wounds will make models be able to survive even two very damaging wounds.
Frostgrave Day was a lot of fun. Could have done with an official rules pack (preferably in advance), but it was friendly and good-natured, which meant most people didn't mind too much if they were occasionally playing by different rules.
Telekinesis seemed to be the spell of choice across many tables... I did very well with my tried-and-tested Elementalist combo (Elemental Hammer/Elemental Bolt/Wall/Telekinesis/Fleet Feet/Leap/Heal/Absorb Knowledge). The idea is that Ele Hammer is put on your crossbowmen if you don't have anything else to do (+7 damage makes for lots of one-shot kills), but generally you just Telekinese a couple of central treasures towards you, and run up to grab the now 4 available treasures with 7" move people. Next use Leap to get away and/or Wall to obstruct pursuit. Hard to beat... perhaps to the point of imbalance? Dunno.
TheWaspinator wrote: Do you need to know Raise Zombie already to use a Book of Bones to make skeletons?
Yes.
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The idea is that Ele Hammer is put on your crossbowmen if you don't have anything else to do (+7 damage makes for lots of one-shot kills),
ELEMENTAL HAMMER Elementalist / 10 / Line of Sight This spell is cast upon a weapon. The next time this weapon
causes at least 1 point of damage, it inflicts an additional 5
points of damage.
overtyrant wrote: I'm sure it was FAQ'd that Elemental Hammer only works on Mele attacks.
Just checked, the FAQ has an entry for Elemental Hammer, and it does not mention it being limited to melee weapons.
It's not a tactic I have encountered yet. Could be a reason to finally buy a Grimoire for my Wzard
Were you able to use the coupon code? I tried furiously several times to get it to work to no avail (yes, it was before the deadline). I very much wanted to order several boxes of soldiers and cultists for Christmas.
Oh and it was only 10% off, I may have been misled by the 2015 reference in the coupon.
Yeah, I emailed them about it. He wrote back a couple of minutes ago and said that Frostgrave items were not eligible for the 10% discount, since they were already "on sale" so you must have gotten lucky. Not sure I'll pull the trigger anymore.
If anyone in the US is interested in trading or selling some of the cultist heads from their Frostgrave cultists set, send me a PM. I have no use for the entire kit but would love to get a few of those heads.
Not to intentionally Piggyback on Vermonter, ... but kinda doing so anyhow..
I ALSO am not interested in the whole kit.. but AM interested in the pointy hood cultist heads.. would like to get all 6 of them.. or as many single sculpts as possible
Got my nickstarter stuff in today from Brigade.
The book is an awesome campaign, the bonus stuff was really nice, and the Cultist figures are wonderfully done.
I can't wait to put them together and paint them.
Totally looking forward to the next campaign Nickstarter in July.
Into the Breeding Pits is the next major supplement, and there are Gnolls featured on the cover, so I'm rooting for multipart plastic Gnolls, becuase, why not ?
Next actual supplement will be Sellsword, with rules for nonspellcaster captains that level up and you can choose thier gear and abilities, due out in January in digital format, and 2017 in a printed compendium format.
For those who might be interested, the new e-book mini-supplement, Frostgrave: Sellsword is now available. It includes rules for 'captains' a new soldier who gains experience and has a few other special tricks.
Second, if anyone has Frostgrave's ear, I just wanted to give a bit of feedback that has kept me from truly considering it - whenever people are discussing their new releases or they're showing them off, I seem to only see box art like this. Every other company on this forum shows greens, or resins, or sprue shots, or at least renders...!
Even when I look at their site, for some reason, I can never find pictures of actual models, only box art. Do you guys really buy these things based off the art, or are there model pics I can see somewhere - of past releases at minimum, but ideally of new releases like this?
Sorry if it's obvious but making that easier to find would really help boost sales with folks who are on the edge of being interested, I think!
(but having looked at various places selling the kits it does seem odd that they aren't showing sprue shots or renders, although they're not the only company that is frustrating in this regard, try looking for spue shots of Wyrd stuff)
Second that RiTides. And it's not just frostgrave.
I'll never get why it's such a chore for miniature manufacturers so show decent pictures of their sprues or unpainted components.
Every potential customer want to see those and they are almost never available. You have to go search peoples blogs or reviews on facebook to see pics.
That's one thing I have to give GW credit for. They seem to have understood that people like to see pics of their sprues and it only took them a decade or so to start putting those up on their homepage, so maybe there's hope to see such pictures for frostgrave kits somewhere around 2020.
It's one of the unwritten rules of mini manufacturing I guess. Like the rule that you should never show comparasion pictures so people can see how they scale against other manufacturers models,
(but having looked at various places selling the kits it does seem odd that they aren't showing sprue shots or renders, although they're not the only company that is frustrating in this regard, try looking for spue shots of Wyrd stuff)
As an outsider, I find this is particularly true of Frostgrave, though. I've asked a number of fans of theirs, and no one can easily find pics of the models!
For Wyrd, if I google any of their models I instantly find a render of it. Not as good as a sprue pic, but definitely enough for me to decide whether I should buy it.
With Frostgrave, I feel I just have no idea of the quality of their sculpts / models, because they're never willing to show them to me! And even their supporters can't easily point to a render or really anything to show what the models look like. Maybe a 3rd party blog has pics...?
They really need to fix this, it's a huge barrier to entry... hopefully someone can pass that along . I'm definitely interested in their stuff!!
I checked back through the Northstar photos on facebook and that was were I'd seen them (show above), plus plenty of built examples so they aren't afraid to show them (and I'm sure the Gnolls will show up there as they're done)
but as you say frustrating that they don't shown them in the store..... And poor show by the other stores that sell the stuff for just grabbing a stock photo to use in their own store rather than taking some pics themselves when they realise it is just box art
Plastic gnolls are definitely a cool thing. Such an iconic bad guy race that there always seems to be a lack of sculpts for.
My only hope is that they're slightly taller than the human models they've made so far. Heck, I'll probably pick up a box just to have a few. I've always liked them too.
Really excited about this. Based on the last two plastic sets, I'm expecting great things. Its also cool that the next fantasy opfor is not the usual goblins or orcs. I don't think I've seen gnolls outside of an RPG before.
RiTides wrote: Second, if anyone has Frostgrave's ear, I just wanted to give a bit of feedback that has kept me from truly considering it - whenever people are discussing their new releases or they're showing them off, I seem to only see box art like this. Every other company on this forum shows greens, or resins, or sprue shots, or at least renders...!
Huh. I remember seeing plenty of sprue pics and assembled minis prior to the release of the original soldiers and cultists boxes. I guess you need to follow their Facebook page to get them soonest, but they did get posted here, IIRC, too.
I was just complaining about there not being any hard plastic gnoll kits out there at the FLGS. I wish this was out sooner than July, but I so want this.
This news totally made my day. Between this and hearing that White Dragon may indeed be making their Talos power armors in 28mm, yeah, Alpharius is totally right.
Alpharius wrote: Will Gnolls end up being 'evil henchmen' for 'evil' characters then?
Has then been a book and/or announcement that details their use in Frostgrave that I've missed?
From what I understand in frost grave you would use them as men-at-arms, thiefs, ect. Yours are just gnolls instead of humans.
The plastic cultists are just alternative models for the same units the Men-At-Arms box are used to build. The cultists aren't rule wise any different. They even said this is what you do if you want to play elves, dwarfs, ect. They would not make rules specificity for other races for balance reasons.
Frost Grave is all about encouraging people to model and theme their warbands how ever you want.
I have to admit frostgrave is a contuinal temptation for me. So far I have bought the rules but resigned myself to only use models I already own for the time begin. After a few more releases however that may change.
The gnolls can be used as opposition or to create a warband. A bestial wizard will also accompany them but that info will be released later based on another forum.
Very excited about this, they're a D&D/ classic fantasy staple and an excellent choice of kit to make.
Hopefully they keep doing interesting kits like this, some kobolds would be fantastic.
!!!! I'm very excited about this. Reaper Bones Gnolls are pretty good but multipart plastics makes running D&D with miniatures easier.
People running Mordheim can use them as counts as Beastmen to boot!
I'm hoping they do D&D style lizardmen that aren't all decked out in meso-American type jewelry and.. Troglodytes! I know I'm wishlisting but I've been trying to get someone to make cheap trogs forever!
Sahuagin/Fish people would be cool too.
Ok, I'm sold on Frostgrave. Hopefully a healthy portion of my existing fantasy stuff is applicable.
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Barzam wrote: This news totally made my day. Between this and hearing that White Dragon may indeed be making their Talos power armors in 28mm, yeah, Alpharius is totally right.
WHAAAAAAA???? For a minute I thought the Talos was the Proteus and was about to lose it.. that's still really cool though!
I checked back through the Northstar photos on facebook and that was were I'd seen them (show above), plus plenty of built examples so they aren't afraid to show them (and I'm sure the Gnolls will show up there as they're done)
but as you say frustrating that they don't shown them in the store..... And poor show by the other stores that sell the stuff for just grabbing a stock photo to use in their own store rather than taking some pics themselves when they realise it is just box art
Those cultist are nice, they could be used in another system as cultist or as redemptionists
highlord tamburlaine wrote: But aren't there a lot of other Arabian warriors already on the market? Didn't Gripping Beast and Wargames Factory make some?
I wouldn't mind a bit more fantastical Arabians though...
Or some non- Meso American lizards...
WGF Persians (which are out of production) are the only plastics I know of.
I only double checked this since the local store here has a box for 25 dollars and was curious about this myself. 40 dual kit guys for 25? I may have to hit them up on that just for the hell of it and conversion possibilities...
I only double checked this since the local store here has a box for 25 dollars and was curious about this myself. 40 dual kit guys for 25? I may have to hit them up on that just for the hell of it and conversion possibilities...
I did not know about those, thanks.
(Dang it! Where were you when I needed conscripts for my Tallarn? WHERE WERE YOU?)
So, I was curious.. any chance the Frostgrave soldiers would work well with Wulfen heads? I know SM scaled heads sometimes are too large for regular human-sized folks but Spellcrow just previewed some wulfen heads that would make for some cool D&D Hobgoblins on the right bodies.. which.. the FG Soldiers.. could be..
highlord tamburlaine wrote: But aren't there a lot of other Arabian warriors already on the market? Didn't Gripping Beast and Wargames Factory make some?
I wouldn't mind a bit more fantastical Arabians though...
Or some non- Meso American lizards...
Some Modern (Lizard-y) Kobolds would be great. Serpent men or Lizard Folk would also be nice. Just more generic fantesy kit on them, then the super specific meso american stuff that GW's stuff has.
Lockark for small reptilian Kobolds like DDO think about maybe 15mm lizardmen (regular lizardmen in 15mm).
They'll be about half the height of a human adventurer and look like a lizard. Usually dirt cheap too.
It's exciting to see a company releasing gnolls in multi-part hard plastic, I don't think that has ever been done before. If I wasn't up to my eyeballs in unpainted minis I would snatch some up when they release, and some of those thugs and cultists as well, since they are all very nice looking.
I put my vote in for generic plastic lizardmen and troglodytes. I have a ton of bones and GW already but some nice generic fantasy ones would still get my money.
Ian Sturrock wrote: FG minis so far are pretty much spot on for being "heroic" scale i.e. same as 40K humans.
Is the nub on the bottom of the heads largish like Space Marines (if you're familiar) or a bit smaller like IG??
I'm trying to figure out if these would look out of place.
I've been looking for hobgoblins for D&D and I think the Frostgrave kit plus these could do it but I don't want them to look like super deformed chibis..
Frostgrave plastics scale with historical manufacturers like fireforge, grippingbeast, and Perry. They will look like chibis with space marine heads. You may try wargames factory orc heads.
Gallahad wrote: Frostgrave plastics scale with historical manufacturers like fireforge, grippingbeast, and Perry. They will look like chibis with space marine heads. You may try wargames factory orc heads.
Thanks.. hmm.. I will have to explore my options a bit then. I use GW style Orcs for orcs so WGF Orcs would look different enough to provide that look. Plus it gives me an excuse to buy some Frostgrave stuff for experimentation
Gallahad -- do you think? I used Statuesque's Heroic Female Heads on mine, and I also use them on terminators and stuff... I will try to get some pics (just moved house, though, and most of my minis are packed).
Ian Sturrock wrote: Gallahad -- do you think? I used Statuesque's Heroic Female Heads on mine, and I also use them on terminators and stuff... I will try to get some pics (just moved house, though, and most of my minis are packed).
The Statuesque Heroic heads are scaled to humans, most of the Marine heads are larger still, and additionally will look larger than a female head due to the structure of the face.
Yeah, fair point. I am pretty sure I had a look at using some spare Space Wolf heads on FG minis though. The only thing that put me off was the presence of the SM helmet stuff on the backs of the necks of pretty much all the SW heads. I don't think the scale was noticeably off.
MLaw wrote: Lockark for small reptilian Kobolds like DDO think about maybe 15mm lizardmen (regular lizardmen in 15mm).
They'll be about half the height of a human adventurer and look like a lizard. Usually dirt cheap too.
But then it comes back to the fact everyone dose their lizard men running around with stone swords and/or meso-american bling on them. lol Plus I like how alot of modren art gives them big eyes for seeing in the dark. It makes them suddenly alot cuter. lol
Now thinking about it, I just want the Super Dugeon Explorer Kobolds. XD (Thow with less chibi proportions, more scrawny.)
Ian Sturrock wrote: Gallahad -- do you think? I used Statuesque's Heroic Female Heads on mine, and I also use them on terminators and stuff... I will try to get some pics (just moved house, though, and most of my minis are packed).
The Statuesque Heroic heads are scaled to humans, most of the Marine heads are larger still, and additionally will look larger than a female head due to the structure of the face.
I am a bit of a stickler on scale, so your results may vary depending on how much exaggeration you can take. The actual heads on the Frostgrave sprue are pretty close in size to Perry heads if that helps at all.
Tamereth wrote: I never knew I needed plastic Gnolls until I saw this news. I don't play frostgrave but a box of 20 will make a unit for my KoW nature army.
It's a good move releasing something so under represented. Hopefully they do more similar kits. Maybe Centaurs next? (he says in hope)
Tamereth wrote: I never knew I needed plastic Gnolls until I saw this news. I don't play frostgrave but a box of 20 will make a unit for my KoW nature army.
It's a good move releasing something so under represented. Hopefully they do more similar kits. Maybe Centaurs next? (he says in hope)
*twitch* please centaurs.
Wargames Factory Plastics made that super easy when if was possible to order their plastic horse sprue on it's own, and then kitbash with their amazons and/or other historical ranges. The celts were poular for that conversion i recall. Sadly with the WGF and Warlord Games partner ship I don't think you can do that anymore.
In all honesty I don't even know were you go to buy their awsome skeletons,Vikings, and samurai any more. they're not on the warlord website.
=/
edit: found the orcs buried dead on that website....
Tamereth wrote: I never knew I needed plastic Gnolls until I saw this news. I don't play frostgrave but a box of 20 will make a unit for my KoW nature army.
It's a good move releasing something so under represented. Hopefully they do more similar kits. Maybe Centaurs next? (he says in hope)
*twitch* please centaurs.
Wargames Factory Plastics made that super easy when if was possible to order their plastic horse sprue on it's own, and then kitbash with their amazons and/or other historical ranges. The celts were poular for that conversion i recall. Sadly with the WGF and Warlord Games partner ship I don't think you can do that anymore.
In all honesty I don't even know were you go to buy their awsome skeletons,Vikings, and samurai any more. they're not on the warlord website.
=/
edit: found the orcs buried dead on that website....
Even when I look at their site, for some reason, I can never find pictures of actual models, only box art. Do you guys really buy these things based off the art, or are there model pics I can see somewhere - of past releases at minimum, but ideally of new releases like this?
I wait until the sprue and assembled model shots are posted here and elsewhere. I don't need to have them in hand day 1.
I'm sure I'll be down for a box or two of these guys. Still need to get the cultists.
Probably worth cross posting this from the Statuesque Miniatures thead
I know a lot of people have been doing some great conversions using the Heroic Scale Female Heads and Frostgrave plastic Soldiers, but I thought I'd see how the Pulp Scale heads look with the plastic Cultists.
Tips for using the Pulp Scale Female Heads with Frostgrave Cultists:
1- Get a wee ball of putty (2mm approx) and flatten it into the neck socket on the figure so you have a circle of putty about 0.5mm in depth.
2- Nick a section in the front of the putty circle to create a collar.
3- Push your Pulp Scale Female Head into the putty collar, positioned as far back as possible.
4- Tidy up the collar a bit making sure some of the neck still shows (just so they don't look too swaddled in fabric).
That's it. Works rather nicely if I may say so myself. Obviously, you do have to take some care when positioning the heads, but putting them as far back as possible means the back is straightened compared to the standard male figures.
so thanks to their bulky clothing the statuesque pulp size heads create some pretty cool female cultists
It would be a big surprise if the gnolls hadn't integral bases, much as I personally loathe the practice and view it as a anachronistic remnant from a bygone era.
At least the ones on the cultist/henchmen are fairly thin and in plastic, so easy to file down further so it's not a big deal.
by the looks of those bases wouldn't it be easier to take some plastic card and cut other pieces to mount to a base and make it more flagstone looking? Similar to the dungeon saga bases?
I am genuinely excited for this. I love the whole Frostgrave style and ethos. Gnolls - that was so left field (most companies gravitate towards undead or orks or something stereotypical). Woohooo keep up the good work!
Gnolls I need gnolls, I have been searching for gnolls. It's like this game has been made for me :9 if the gnolls are as good as the soldiers and cultists this will make me happy.
D: kind of wish I didn't know it was coming so I didn't have to wait so long now.
Theophony wrote: by the looks of those bases wouldn't it be easier to take some plastic card and cut other pieces to mount to a base and make it more flagstone looking? Similar to the dungeon saga bases?
Yeah that's what I've been doing - putting them on the thin Renedra style bases so that there is room to add a little greenstuff and carve some flagstones into it and the combined base height is no different to a standard sculpted base.
Does the sculptor actually get to see the concept art or is it a guessing game? Seriously disappointed. Another miss from the looks so far. Not that I expected anything else, I suppose. But I'd hoped... My bad.
Gallahad wrote:Personally, that looks more like a plastic Gnope.
That build is fugly.
I'm hoping it's just an unflattering selection from the available components. You could certainly assemble an equally bad looking figure from the other kits they've released but also extremely good figures.. So I agree with the wait for more pictures sentiment. It would be awesome to see the sprues.
Taarnak wrote: Does the sculptor actually get to see the concept art or is it a guessing game? Seriously disappointed. Another miss from the looks so far. Not that I expected anything else, I suppose. But I'd hoped... My bad.
I was extremely excited about the announcement of plastic Gnolls for Frostgrave, but I admit this rendering doesn't do much for me and is a bit disappointing after how great the Soldiers and Cultists turned out.
The hands on this figure look like they used some arms from the Soldier or Cultist kit, they are much too human looking. The overall anatomy of the figure also missed the much more dynamic, hunched over poses of the box art. I really hope this is just a first attempt and not an example of the finished product.
ShaneTB wrote: He looks like the one third from left with the mask/hood on.
In that they both happen to be wearing something that looks like a mask or hood, yes.
Will hold opinion until I see a barefaced one.
I thought more people should've held opinion 'til pics of the actual minis showed up, but horses for courses.
Eh, I was excited about the idea of multipart Gnolls. I will be excited by any (almost any) company that announces they're doing multipart fantasy races that aren't really out there. Not showing excitement at announcements like this keeps other potential manufacturers from knowing we're interested.
I know for a fact I've expressed interest in things on Dakka and the company whose page I was in went a different direction only to have another company send me a PM saying they saw my post and even asking for specifics about what I was looking for, to which the also offered a bundle. I don't want to mis-quote who was involved but the topic was vehicle mounted minigun turrets.
Gitkikka wrote: Plastic gnolls? At last a source of Khornegor.
Gnolls as Khornegor?
Don't make me laugh....
The Auld Grump - preparing for plastic gnolls and Legacy of Fire, no laughing matter.
You play with your army mens the way you want to, and I'll play with my army mens the way I want to.
That wasn't meant as an insult - I am picturing Khornegors laughing like hyenas - if you have ever heard them up close, that laugh is really freakin' scary - and hyenas can bite through a three inch lead pipe.
They do not steal food from lions - lions steal food from them.
I will be using hyena laughs for the Legacy of Fire Adventure Path - that was more of a suggestion than anything else.
The Auld Grump - and the female hyena is both larger and worse natured - and has more testosterone than the males....
*EDIT* In short, I liked the idea of hyena men as Khornegors, I think hyena men work just fine in that role.
Wehrkind wrote: Female hyenas also have penises. Just sayin', creepiest mammals ever.
That's actually the clitoris. I'm not sure if that's the case for all varieties, or just the spotted Hyenas though. They're also matriarchal and have an intelligence level that surpasses most primates. Hyenas are rather interesting animals.
Gitkikka wrote: Plastic gnolls? At last a source of Khornegor.
Gnolls as Khornegor?
Don't make me laugh....
The Auld Grump - preparing for plastic gnolls and Legacy of Fire, no laughing matter.
You play with your army mens the way you want to, and I'll play with my army mens the way I want to.
That wasn't meant as an insult - I am picturing Khornegors laughing like hyenas - if you have ever heard them up close, that laugh is really freakin' scary - and hyenas can bite through a three inch lead pipe.
They do not steal food from lions - lions steal food from them.
I will be using hyena laughs for the Legacy of Fire Adventure Path - that was more of a suggestion than anything else.
The Auld Grump - and the female hyena is both larger and worse natured - and has more testosterone than the males....
*EDIT* In short, I liked the idea of hyena men as Khornegors, I think hyena men work just fine in that role.
Oh, not a problem! I'm just excited that my old dog-headed Citadel beastmen will finally have proper playmates.
Also, this thread went to a weird place with the lesson in hyena anatomy
I'm glad it's opposite day... I'm so sick of space marines, that the plastics from Warhammer Fantasy Regiments back in 1987 are better than every space marine sculpt that I see.
Wehrkind wrote: Female hyenas also have penises. Just sayin', creepiest mammals ever.
That's actually the clitoris. I'm not sure if that's the case for all varieties, or just the spotted Hyenas though. They're also matriarchal and have an intelligence level that surpasses most primates. Hyenas are rather interesting animals.
That is true, though since they have the same bone to make it do its thing, pee through it, and use it to mount each other (perhaps only when young) it is functionally nearly identical. For my purposes at least
They are interesting creatures indeed! But man... if someone set out to design an animal that would be repellent to humans with the only stipulation that it had to be a mammal with the normal mammal details, it would be hard to imagine a more successful design. Maybe naked mole rats. I mean, sure regular rats are considered unpleasant, but just about every aspect of hyenas seems intended to displease humans.
Much like the frostgrave gnolls seem to be, but not in a good way. Really not impressed with that model... I am not certain I think it is even better than the 90's era Ral Partha gnolls.
Ehhh... Better than that archer version, but still falls well short, IMHO, of what the box art promises... Pity, but we'll see if they can continue to improve the look.
As it stands, I'm not seeing those models on my "I want to buy some" list...
Still don't mind, as I want plastic animal people.
Yea, they had a few different versions. Most were more upright than we might expect now, but the heads were pretty nice. I had the Gnoll army box:
It had a number of multipart, mix and match metal infantry and then a Flind shaman with flindbar and a gnoll chieftain. One of these days I am going to strip off my "I am 13 and learning to paint before the internet!" paint jobs and do them up nicely. Along with my "Bilidum and the Ogre Mauraders of Spiderhaunt" army box, among others.
None of these are mine, but here's what they looked like;
Note they are also 25mm scale, so they are not much taller than regular infantry these days.
On the positive side, the new Frostgrave Gnoll post doesn't look like a Skaven by another name.
On the negative side, the pose / arms look wooden. There's no sense of naturalistic animation, tension, waiting to pounce, preparing to strike, etc. I think this is what the cover art conveys well that the models have really been lacking so far.
For better posing, see the Otherworld image above, which has it in spades. Yes, it's a monopose figure, which is an advantage. But good multi-part kits allow for figures that look like they're doing something purposeful, even if that's just waiting for the right moment to attack.
They will make great filler for my mixed beast here army in KOW. I just picked up a bunch of clearance Almemy figures for $1 each, which will fill up some units. If I add in my GW beastmen and these gnolls then the army will look very diverse, even if multiples of same poses are in a unit.
Alkemy minis just FYI, they seem to be back in business, but 3-4 owner now.
On the negative side, the pose / arms look wooden. There's no sense of naturalistic animation, tension, waiting to pounce, preparing to strike, etc. I think this is what the cover art conveys well that the models have really been lacking so far.
That's true of the cultists and...other kit (?) as well IMO. Maybe just less obviously an issue because they're human.
Looks solid, wondering if we'll see any not Grill heads on the sprues for an alternate look?
I recognize that, it's why I said I get the appeal. While I've not been in since the 70s or whatever but I did start in the late 80s with the basic box D&D and by my teenage years I was calculating THAC0. I just prefer more flourish than they tend to use. I grew up with the AD&D Monster Manual. In fact it was a huge inspiration in my interest in art growing up.
Which is why the Frostgrave designs are so much more appealing to me (trying to steer it back.. honestly ).. I think a lot of people's reservations for the kit will be assuaged when some veteran builders/painters get hands on with the kit. The poses looking too rigid might just be lack of skill with posing miniatures. I've seen 40k Orks that are assembled and look utterly rigid and I've seen them assembled where they look like they are living breathing heathens of the battlefield. Same for power armor.
At this point there would have to be something really really off about the sprue pictures to turn me off from the gnolls.
When I run D&D games I always make a point the the largest and strongest Gnolls are Actully the woman leading the smaller men, like Real life hyenas. I always felt that gave them a interest flavour that separated them from stuff like orcs and Hobogoblins when it came to player interactions beyond the normal combat stuff.
I hope the Reaper Gnoll Champs will be larger then frost grave's plastics, that way it's abit easier to represent this in miniature form.
Lockark wrote: When I run D&D games I always make a point the the largest and strongest Gnolls are Actully the woman leading the smaller men, like Real life hyenas. I always felt that gave them a interest flavour that separated them from stuff like orcs and Hobogoblins when it came to player interactions beyond the normal combat stuff.
I hope the Reaper Gnoll Champs will be larger then frost grave's plastics, that way it's abit easier to represent this in miniature form.
The D&D Temple of Elemental Evil board game gnolls are even bigger than the Reaper ones.
Lockark wrote: When I run D&D games I always make a point the the largest and strongest Gnolls are Actully the woman leading the smaller men, like Real life hyenas. I always felt that gave them a interest flavour that separated them from stuff like orcs and Hobogoblins when it came to player interactions beyond the normal combat stuff.
I hope the Reaper Gnoll Champs will be larger then frost grave's plastics, that way it's abit easier to represent this in miniature form.
The D&D Temple of Elemental Evil board game gnolls are even bigger than the Reaper ones.
Thanks for the tip! I will look into that. The mini's from thows board games and range alot in sculpting qualitiy so will need to see if I can find some good images of the gnolls from that game.
edit:
It looks like they are human legged gnolls, not digigrade gnolls. would be to much of a pet-peev for me to use them with these new plastics who are digigrade. That's to bad, because size wise they are prety beefy mini's, and the detail looks prety decent.
Lockark wrote: When I run D&D games I always make a point the the largest and strongest Gnolls are Actully the woman leading the smaller men, like Real life hyenas. I always felt that gave them a interest flavour that separated them from stuff like orcs and Hobogoblins when it came to player interactions beyond the normal combat stuff.
I hope the Reaper Gnoll Champs will be larger then frost grave's plastics, that way it's abit easier to represent this in miniature form.
The D&D Temple of Elemental Evil board game gnolls are even bigger than the Reaper ones.
Thanks for the tip! I will look into that. The mini's from thows board games and range alot in sculpting qualitiy so will need to see if I can find some good images of the gnolls from that game.
edit:
It looks like they are human legged gnolls, not digigrade gnolls. would be to much of a pet-peev for me to use them with these new plastics who are digigrade. That's to bad, because size wise they are prety beefy mini's, and the detail looks prety decent.
I didn't even notice until you pointed it out... In all honesty, ToEE is the only one of the modern D&D boardgames I've had spotty luck on model quality with. Some of the sculpts on the others are a bit doofy but the casts are typically crisp. ToEE has some extremely soft details and bendy plastic though.
I'm dying to see these sprues already.. lol the anticipation is killer
Azazelx wrote: It's a lovely sculpt with a lovely paintjob, but it's clearly a human actor in a rubber mask, gloves and booties. Like Star Trek Aliens.
I disliked the Mickey Mouse ears at first but after looking at some pictures of hyenas.. I don't think they're that far off. In hand I expect they won't look as pronounced.
The teeth thing is for sure a turnoff on the open mouth but I think in person .. again.. maybe not as severe as it seems, especially if you remember we tend to view them from above..so the undercuts and whatnot won't really be seen until you are at eye level and probably really close at that.
I don't like how unfurry (new word!) the arms are but I have a CRAPLOAD of leftover beastmen arms that are furry... so I guess that works out.. and it's not like nobody is making Wulfen arms at the moment either :/
Can anyone who has existing plastics comment about whether or not there's an abundance of accessories and other bits on the sprues? I loved the old Mordheim stuff (I know a lot of it was actually WHFB stuff) with all the cool books and torches and lanterns and stuff. Hoping it's a similar story.
Can anyone who has existing plastics comment about whether or not there's an abundance of accessories and other bits on the sprues? I loved the old Mordheim stuff (I know a lot of it was actually WHFB stuff) with all the cool books and torches and lanterns and stuff. Hoping it's a similar story.
Frostgrave sprues are loaded with stuff, just as much as the old mordheim sprues, they are awesome.
Spoiler:
Just noticed that the gnolls are wearing dog-tags.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Ten gnoll celebrities who look unrecognizably hideous without their makeup! Number 8 will surprise you.
Have an exalt! I about snarfed my coffee.
I am really kind of down on the gnoll sculpts. I really want them to have the hunched, heavy shoulders and necks of a hyena. That has always been one of the hallmarks of a good gnoll/werewolf sculpt for me, the neck that looks like it supports a powerful jaw for crushing and tearing. Compare to the reaper gnoll recently out:
Or this gorilla for that matter:
Both look like their heads are used for serious business, as opposed to just a box to hold their brains and eyes with a little largely useless jaw attached.
I could almost forgive the cartoony and soft features of the sculpt if the necks were more sturdy, but as is it looks like a guy in a mask, and not a very good mask.
Plus I think the snout is too flat and broad... but that might just be a taste thing.
Wehrkind: that gorilla is truly impressive and why sculpts that over exaggerate musculature and can't get basic anatomy right bother me. Most humans should look pretty slender at this scale and big slabs of muscle would indicate something pretty strong/nasty to face.
Anyhow, the mouth and nose are too broad and give it a more simian look that doesn't combine well with the exaggerated teeth, large ears, and crude fur.
Nonetheless, it still seems perfectly serviceable and is instantly recognizable as a gnoll. I do like that they aren't overly muscled like the Reaper and GW beastmen.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Ten gnoll celebrities who look unrecognizably hideous without their makeup! Number 8 will surprise you.
Have an exalt! I about snarfed my coffee.
I am really kind of down on the gnoll sculpts. I really want them to have the hunched, heavy shoulders and necks of a hyena. That has always been one of the hallmarks of a good gnoll/werewolf sculpt for me, the neck that looks like it supports a powerful jaw for crushing and tearing. Compare to the reaper gnoll recently out:
Or this gorilla for that matter:
Both look like their heads are used for serious business, as opposed to just a box to hold their brains and eyes with a little largely useless jaw attached.
I could almost forgive the cartoony and soft features of the sculpt if the necks were more sturdy, but as is it looks like a guy in a mask, and not a very good mask.
Plus I think the snout is too flat and broad... but that might just be a taste thing.
I was going to say.. hey.. you could always order some gnoll heads from the boneyard but it looks like Reaper shut that down..
plastictrees wrote: I'm wondering if they limited themselves by trying to maintain some arm/body compatibility with the cultist/adventurer kit?
The only compatibility would have to be arms.. the sprue shown above has the torso and legs as single pieces for existing kits.. I think it has to do more with the art direction for Frostgrave. They hit a lot of good notes on very common things but they're very middle of the road on style. This precludes them from having pronounced shoulders, long slender snouts, huge tufts of fur, etc. While otherworld is a little too human for my taste I think these are a bit on the not classic gnoll side... but.. not overly human either. I like them and I have a campaign that is based on the Menachturum Desert from Eberron/DDO so loads of Gnolls are what I need. I do understand why a lot of others feel the way they do. I'm not using them for an army of anything so much as some RP pieces so on these I am not as bothered by details as I would be on something like.. say.. a command squad for a tabletop army.
Terribad still. Paint polished the turd a little, but it still stinks.
Seriously, if you are gonna spend all that money to get the metal molds cut, why skimp on the sculptor? I'll never understand. I'll never waste money on this company either though, so...
The excuse given elsewhere is that these are three ups and of course they look not as good all blown up on our screens.
To which I submitted something like this:
3 up sculpts blown way up on my screen that are damn near identical to the final pieces. The finish is a bit rough, and does get smoothed out on the final product, true.
The finish on the Gnolls has never been the issue though. The sculpt proficiency and level of detail has. The first preview almost managed a canine mouth, but the second and third have gone full on "can't be arsed, here's some pointy teeth, good enough" goblin mouthed. They both seem to have hooves rather than paws. Both seem to be wearing torn up t-shirts and kilts, or perhaps long tunics, despite none of that being featured on the excellent box art (maybe the first one on the left, but I can't find a good enough picture to tell). The forearms on the second one appear to be as long as his thigh. Lastly for me the poses are straight up laughable. I realize that being multi part limits that last a bit, but come on...
Examples of miles better sculpts in a far inferior material:
I know I'm wasting my breath here. The wargame customer crowd has a long tradition of accepting whatever companies will put out. Which is why we can't have nice things, but that is a digression for another time.
TL: DR -If you like them, great, but don't act like they don't have issues and couldn't be better. I think they suck.
Those are actually three-ups for the plastic gnolls? Ugh. This went from a must buy (likely several boxes - I love the concept of gnolls) to total pass. Shame.
Cruentus wrote: Those are actually three-ups for the plastic gnolls? Ugh. This went from a must buy (likely several boxes - I love the concept of gnolls) to total pass. Shame.
He's assuming those are 3ups. Why would they paint a 3up? I don't think I've ever seen a company do that..
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Yeah, but these aren't Red Box Games gnolls, and Tre Manor certainly isn't sculpting them, so you gotta cut Northstar a *little* slack.
No, no we don't. They exist in the world with Reaper, Otherworld, and Gale Force 9's Gnolls. They are competing for the same market and dollars.
I'll cut them even less slack having read some of the tantrums thrown by the owner when he didn't get a sufficiently adoring response to his products.
Cruentus wrote: Those are actually three-ups for the plastic gnolls? Ugh. This went from a must buy (likely several boxes - I love the concept of gnolls) to total pass. Shame.
He's assuming those are 3ups. Why would they paint a 3up? I don't think I've ever seen a company do that..
No, I'm not assuming anything. The owner stated they were 3ups.
They look on par with the other frost grave plastics in all honesty. I feel like I'm crazy for not expecting these to look as good as Metal or Resin Sculpts. Like, their are some pretty potato looking faces in these releases let's be honest. Also everything they have done up to this point has been in wired GW heroic proportions.
I feel like that awsome art work got people's hopes up alot higher then what frost grave is actually able to deliver.
Lockark wrote: They look on par with the other frost grave plastics in all honesty. I feel like I'm crazy for not expecting these to look as good as Metal or Resin Sculpts. Like, their are some pretty potato looking faces in these releases let's be honest. Also everything they have done up to this point has been in wired GW heroic proportions.
I feel like that awsome art work got people's hopes up alot higher then what frost grave is actually able to deliver.
Their Soldiers and Cultists are bad to mediocre too. And they fell woefully short of their box art also. So the Gnolls missing the mark isn't surprising, really.
They had a great opportunity with the Gnolls that they didn't have with the others. The closest thing to these in the market are GW Beastmen. I can't think of anything else out there.
I rather agree. I sort of like the soldiers in an old school, sort of cartoony way. The cultists though... those are some bad faces. Stupid swords, too, but seriously, what is that guy on the left's mouth doing?
Not sure where everyone is seeing cartoony for the soldiers....they look on par with offerings from Gripping Beast and Fireforge. And when painted in less-gaudy colors, I think they turn out ok.
A few of the cultist heads are a bit exaggerated, though, and I've refrained from using them for mine. But the rest of the kit is actually pretty nice, and the details are improved from the soldier kit.
I'll postpone my judgement on the gnolls until I have plastic in hand. Often times, painted 3-ups have a tendency to misrepresent the plastic model at actual size.
@-iPaint-:
Put the Frost Grave Plastics next to perry brother's Historicals. They look Cartoony just as much as GW's stuff will look cartoony.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Making me feel bad for liking the gnolls so far, and the minis they have made already. Except that one cultist that has Klingon ridges...
Don't worry. I like the gnolls so far also. I'm still looking foreword to buying a few boxes.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Yeah I like the GW and Frostgrave it feels more 'heroic' in a D&D vein.
The historical are...okay. Very thin though...those Napoleonic soldiers need a sandwich. (I have no idea if they are actually French. Just playing)
Yah, my point is that frostgrave have some stylistic/heroic scale things going on. Kar posted some nice properly proportioned historicals, so figured it was only fair to point out that nothing in the frostgrave range is in that "style". Everything is more "heroic scale" as you put it.
So I can understand why some people may not like them. But personally i'm loving them so far, and frostgrave stuff has always looked good next to my GW stuff and I feel these will too. I know I'm going to order a couple of these boxes when they come out.
Cruentus wrote: Those are actually three-ups for the plastic gnolls? Ugh. This went from a must buy (likely several boxes - I love the concept of gnolls) to total pass. Shame.
He's assuming those are 3ups. Why would they paint a 3up? I don't think I've ever seen a company do that..
I actually really like the Frostgrave soldiers kit, I think it works very well and the proportions don't look weird at all to me even though they are heavily heroic. They are well done. The Cultists have some badly sculpted parts though and these gnolls... yeah, the box art had my hyped but the sculpts look nothing like it.
By thin you actually mean 'to scale'. I have had no issues with mine in terms of fragility, in fact I am planning on buying another 150-200 of them....
Perry's plastics are excellent and significantly cheaper per model than most 28mm plastic kits.
There are few Frostgrave miniatures that I actually like, basically this one:
I like the soldiers box a lot. I don't think they have to be cartoony -- the only one that seems so is the guy with the tache. Don't use that head if you don't like taches!
Here's some of mine, WIP paintjobs, bad camera, etc., alongside (far left) two Hasslefree minis (my Wizard & Apprentice). Note that the 4 in the middle are made with Statuesque Heroic Scale heads, with only the 2 on the far left having FG soldier box heads.
Yes I know I need to get around to painting the faces. Painting faces is hard! Can't we just give them all Space Marine helmets.
I found the Cultists box really good too. There was one of the poses that had slightly weird, leaping clown kind of legs. The rest was great though.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Do you have a link to that? I'm curious.
Nostromodamus wrote:
Seconded.
Azazelx wrote:
Link?
Here is a link to his LAF posts. If you dig through you'll find lots of condescending and bitchy posts. Some of the worst stuff from the initial release I couldn't find, so they may have been cleaned up a bit.
Some of you folks here know that I'm not prone to hyperbole, so take my words as you will.
Edit: It appears that you need to be signed in to view that link. It is a good board to be a member of, especially if your interests extend beyond GW games.
adamsouza wrote: I like the Gnolls, and the fact they aren't roided out and 8ft tall.
When the D&D plastics and Reaper beefed them up, it looked cool, but it doens't match their stats in D&D.
Like someone else already suggested, these will be fine for rank and file, and make the Reaper/D&D ones stand out as commanders.
Let's also remember they are being made for Frostgrave, where I doubt their statline would require them to be huge and beefy.
My dislike of them has nothing to do with their amount of muscle, but rather their posture and general humanoid appearance. The artwork has them looking much more feral, hunched over like hyenas. The models just look like guys with hyena heads and dog legs.
Haha, you shouldn't compare Perry historicals to GW anything - Perry figures will always make GW figures look like the turdpiles they are.
Probably best not to compare _anyone's_ sculpting of humans to the Perry brothers, actually. Perry sculpts will always look better, because they are better.
Now back to the gnolls. Otherworld Gnolls are certainly better than the Frostgrave gnolls. Not so sure about the Reaper guys - they look way too World of Warcraft/Pathfinder/DragonBall MEGA POWER SHOULDER PAD aesthetic which I absolutely loathe.
But, Frostgrave gnolls will be like a buck fifty apiece. Which means I can own one Otherworld gnoll champion or ten Frostgrave plastic gnolls.
Now, I don't know about you guys, but since I spend much of my hobby time actually playing games, my models are over three feet away from me at any given point, and not blown up to a foot tall on a computer screen. This is how I can justify using Warhammer models when playing games, despite how laughably bad and poorly sculpted most of the entire Warhammer range is. The gnolls will fit right in (and, whew, already look an order of magnitude better than, say, the 7th edition Empire plastics.)
judgedoug wrote: Haha, you shouldn't compare Perry historicals to GW anything - Perry figures will always make GW figures look like the turdpiles they are.
Probably best not to compare _anyone's_ sculpting of humans to the Perry brothers, actually. Perry sculpts will always look better, because they are better.
You do realise that the Perry Brothers are responsible for a huge part of the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit range, don't you?
judgedoug wrote: Haha, you shouldn't compare Perry historicals to GW anything - Perry figures will always make GW figures look like the turdpiles they are.
Probably best not to compare _anyone's_ sculpting of humans to the Perry brothers, actually. Perry sculpts will always look better, because they are better.
Now back to the gnolls. Otherworld Gnolls are certainly better than the Frostgrave gnolls. Not so sure about the Reaper guys - they look way too World of Warcraft/Pathfinder/DragonBall MEGA POWER SHOULDER PAD aesthetic which I absolutely loathe.
But, Frostgrave gnolls will be like a buck fifty apiece. Which means I can own one Otherworld gnoll champion or ten Frostgrave plastic gnolls.
Now, I don't know about you guys, but since I spend much of my hobby time actually playing games, my models are over three feet away from me at any given point, and not blown up to a foot tall on a computer screen. This is how I can justify using Warhammer models when playing games, despite how laughably bad and poorly sculpted most of the entire Warhammer range is. The gnolls will fit right in (and, whew, already look an order of magnitude better than, say, the 7th edition Empire plastics.)
Just cause you don't like the design GW and Reaper have doesn't make them turdpiles. I don't care for the historical shown, they are fine if you are making an 8th grade diorama for history on the battle of Waterloo. But they aren't models I'd want to use for a game. Proportion might be 'right' in scale but as I mentioned before they look downright anorexic. Too thin and weak to be 'heroes'. GW and these figures actually look like they can scrap, and aesthetically for a 'fantasy' wargame are gorgeous and much better.
Also be nice to Reaper, I was able to make my Gnoll Paladin with one:
judgedoug wrote: Haha, you shouldn't compare Perry historicals to GW anything - Perry figures will always make GW figures look like the turdpiles they are.
Probably best not to compare _anyone's_ sculpting of humans to the Perry brothers, actually. Perry sculpts will always look better, because they are better.
You do realise that the Perry Brothers are responsible for a huge part of the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit range, don't you?
Yeah, my favorite range GW has ever done (and still actively collecting models for). You guys know I meant Warhammer and 40k.
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KingmanHighborn wrote: Just cause you don't like the design GW and Reaper have doesn't make them turdpiles. I don't care for the historical shown, they are fine if you are making an 8th grade diorama for history on the battle of Waterloo. But they aren't models I'd want to use for a game. Proportion might be 'right' in scale but as I mentioned before they look downright anorexic. Too thin and weak to be 'heroes'. GW and these figures actually look like they can scrap, and aesthetically for a 'fantasy' wargame are gorgeous and much better.
Ah, you caught my sarcasm at all these posters writing their subjective opinion as objective fact!
OMG I can't even imagine playing ACW or AWI or Naps or WSS with GW Melonhead McHamfist models.
Also, disagree with fantasy needing to look like a terrible Saturday Morning cartoon. As Shadow Captain Edithae pointed out, GW's best sculpts - by the Perry bros - are their LotR/Hobbit range, which are all fantasy, with far better design sensibilities than, for instance, 7th ed Empire soldiers who can't afford shoes.
Yeah, my favorite range GW has ever done (and still actively collecting models for). You guys know I meant Warhammer and 40k.
No I didn't. You said "anything GW", not "Warhammer". Say what you mean in future. The typical Warhammer player and collector is fairly ignorant of the SBG, so it was a reasonable assumption that someone who does not play and collect it would not know who sculpted the range.
And yes, I too think the LOTR/Hobbit range (at least those sculpted by the Perry brothers) are by far GW's best sculpts (in technical terms - aesthetic taste is subjective). I'm using them for my Dungeons and Dragons 5e campaign, along with Hasslefree Miniatures.
-iPaint- wrote: Not sure where everyone is seeing cartoony for the soldiers....they look on par with offerings from Gripping Beast and Fireforge. And when painted in less-gaudy colors, I think they turn out ok.
Spoiler:
A few of the cultist heads are a bit exaggerated, though, and I've refrained from using them for mine. But the rest of the kit is actually pretty nice, and the details are improved from the soldier kit.
I'll postpone my judgement on the gnolls until I have plastic in hand. Often times, painted 3-ups have a tendency to misrepresent the plastic model at actual size.
~iPaint
By "cartoony" I didn't really mean "bad", I just meant stylized instead of properly scaled. Stylized can be fine, and like I said, I like the soldier kit pretty well for what it is. I don't generally like heroic scale stuff, and I think GW went WAY over the top with it as one example, but PP is often guilty of similar things. I think the Frostgrave soldiers are stylized pretty well, and give off an old school vibe I like.
Would I like them better if they were scaled properly? There's a good chance of that, but I don't dislike them as is. The cultist heads and definitely the gnolls pushed the stylization a bit too far and in the wrong direction I think. Stylization works when it conveys the ideas behind a character, but you can go too far, such as the "I use compact cars as shoulder pads!" look in many PP models, or "I ALWAYS skip leg day!" in Mantic and PP stuff. Obviously GW commits many sins of that sort as well.
To look at it another way, compare the Frostgrave model's hyena bits to the hyenas from the Lion King:
Heavily stylized, but you know they are hyenas instantly. All the characteristics that trigger "hyena" in our brains are there. When looking at the Frostgrave gnolls, honestly if they showed the model without saying what it was "gnoll" might not be my first guess. The digitigrade legs help, but that face could be simian or any other combination of animal and man done poorly. Or a goblin.
Just cause you don't like the design GW and Reaper have doesn't make them turdpiles. I don't care for the historical shown, they are fine if you are making an 8th grade diorama for history on the battle of Waterloo. But they aren't models I'd want to use for a game. Proportion might be 'right' in scale but as I mentioned before they look downright anorexic. Too thin and weak to be 'heroes'. GW and these figures actually look like they can scrap, and aesthetically for a 'fantasy' wargame are gorgeous and much better.
Yeah, because models that look like actual humans who actually fought and died is for 8th grade dioramas. Thin people can't be heroes- they all have to look like roided bald men with hands and feet the size of their head!
Audie Murphy would have a word on what a real hero looks like. Heck, even the big heroes don't have hamfists and balls of muscle on muscle- look at John Keller.
Sorry, but while you may have accepted GW's ridiculous proportions (and some of their models are nice), but when you dump on reality, it just comes across poorly. Saying, "Certain manufacturers have adopted their own proportions and I like/prefer/etc." is one thing. Saying proportional models don't look good for wargaming is quite another.... Strikes me of saying Haggar the Horrible cartoons better capture the spirit of battle than actual Norse battles.
Wow, this discussion went hostile fast.
People... instead of getting so venomous about plastic hyena men and whose the bestest sculptor for ever for reals.. take a step back and realize.. we're arguing about Gnolls. If they are that important in your life, then you've probably already got some. If you hate these that much, you probably have something else going on that needs your energy more than this discussion. This is for gaming. Fun. So lower the blood pressure.. don't start your weekend with internet badass syndrome.. and maybe build some minis or play some games?!?
Personally.. I'm cool with these. I don't think they're the best thing ever. They don't need to be. Here's a secret about the market. Everyone isn't making Space Marine knockoffs because nobody made them. They're making them because EVERYONE BUYS THEM. So if you want someone to do better gnolls.. proving that they are unpopular by not buying the kit is not the way to go. However, if these sell like hotcakes (see zombies, skeletons, woman warriors, barbarians, dragons, orcs, etc) then other companies with better sculptors will say.. Hey.. if those mediocre Gnolls sold by the dozen, maybe my better sculpts will sell even moar bettar!!!one!111!!
Seriously.. if you like them, even a little.. pick them up. If you get them and they suck, turn them into something else or sell them on ebay. If you can't be bothered either way then why throw so much hatred on the thread?
But yes, I agree. I wish/hope they will be better than what I am seeing so far, but a mediocre to bad gnoll box does not wreck any plans I had one way or the other.
Now, if they were satyrs/fauns and centaurs that turned out badly, I would be gnashing my teeth. I would like to recreate Titan Quest on the table top.
I like 'em... and love the Frostgrave kits for their purpose... but I also really love the game, and want to support it, and see it thrive.
That said, I play GW Ogres, so I am told my taste is horrible. :-p What can I say, some games fit a true-scale aesthetic, and some games I play I don't mind ridiculous proportions.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Maybe a bit of pinning and greenstuff could extend the neck and give them a more hunched appearance.
Well, any figure can be rebuilt into something better if you have the time, materials and inclination. Gnolls simply aren't that important to me, and I'd wager that this isn't a terribly uncommon perspective.
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KingmanHighborn wrote: Making me feel bad for liking the gnolls so far, and the minis they have made already. Except that one cultist that has Klingon ridges...
Nah, go for your life, mate. I'm not telling anyone else that they're not allowed to like 'em. Just discussing how I'm personally disappointed and won't be buying them (and I wanted to).
My dislike of them has nothing to do with their amount of muscle, but rather their posture and general humanoid appearance. The artwork has them looking much more feral, hunched over like hyenas. The models just look like guys with hyena heads and dog legs.
Probably best not to compare _anyone's_ sculpting of humans to the Perry brothers, actually. Perry sculpts will always look better, because they are better.
catachan_jungle_fighters.jpg
empire_state_troops.gif
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MLaw wrote: Wow, this discussion went hostile fast.
People... instead of getting so venomous about plastic hyena men and whose the bestest sculptor for ever for reals.. take a step back and realize.. we're arguing about Gnolls.
Total agreement with this bit.
However, if these sell like hotcakes (see zombies, skeletons, woman warriors, barbarians, dragons, orcs, etc) then other companies with better sculptors will say.. Hey.. if those mediocre Gnolls sold by the dozen, maybe my better sculpts will sell even moar bettar!!!one!111!!
Seriously.. if you like them, even a little.. pick them up. If you get them and they suck, turn them into something else or sell them on ebay. If you can't be bothered either way then why throw so much hatred on the thread?
But not this bit. Northstar isn't a charity helping to look after sick kittens or cure cancer or anything. And there's nothing wrong with saying that you were looking forward to them and are disappointed with the final product and no longer intend to purchase. Well, as long as it's not done in a manner to pick a fight, anyway. And probably no need to go on for 14 pages repeating that one thing, either.
Considering the quality of all their work in recent years (and their earlier stuff) I wonder what happened there, unless it was something to do with Michael Perry's missing hand...
Azazelx - The bit about buying the kits. I think you're reading too much into what I'm saying. Like I stated before.. I need some gnolls for roleplaying and they don't have to be amazing sculpts.
That said.. if I were to refrain from buying models because they don't look like the best sculpts I've ever seen, I wouldn't own very many models. Everyone's needs and wants are going to be different but this thread took a pretty combative tone towards people who were expressing that they were happy with what we're being shown.
MLaw, I naturally have low blood pressure and a slow heart rate. Internet rage is my cardio.
On that note, I must admit I'm disappointed with what we've seen so far. The sculpts look so...half assed. If anything, they aren't even as good as the Warriors or cultists, and I quietly dropped the idea of buying any of those. Depending on how the sprues look and how reasonable (for me) the prices are, I might end up buying even more the manor gnolls and reposing them. The bones prices seem pretty close to Frostgrave PPM, but the quality is immensely higher.
These are, like, the Epirian Contractors of the gnolls.
Considering the quality of all their work in recent years (and their earlier stuff) I wonder what happened there, unless it was something to do with Michael Perry's missing hand...
Weren't they having a falling out with GW about that time? Maybe I'm mistaken but I could've sworn I read that they had parted ways a while shortly after the period those were done..
Considering the quality of all their work in recent years (and their earlier stuff) I wonder what happened there, unless it was something to do with Michael Perry's missing hand...
Weren't they having a falling out with GW about that time? Maybe I'm mistaken but I could've sworn I read that they had parted ways a while shortly after the period those were done..
This is the first I've ever heard of a falling out...
Rather, the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit range was coming to its natural conclusion, and their own business Perry Miniatures was growing fast. Rather than agree to be transferred to work on the Warhammer ranges, they chose to leave GW and focus on their own business.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: MLaw, I naturally have low blood pressure and a slow heart rate. Internet rage is my cardio.
On that note, I must admit I'm disappointed with what we've seen so far. The sculpts look so...half assed. If anything, they aren't even as good as the Warriors or cultists, and I quietly dropped the idea of buying any of those. Depending on how the sprues look and how reasonable (for me) the prices are, I might end up buying even more the manor gnolls and reposing them. The bones prices seem pretty close to Frostgrave PPM, but the quality is immensely higher.
These are, like, the Epirian Contractors of the gnolls.
The smaller stature of the Frostgrave ones serves my purposes. I'm going to have adventurers wander into a Gnoll village. The Manor Gnolls are far more militant looking and will mostly be their warriors while these FG kit gnolls will be casters and villagers defending themselves.
Another note (not really towards Bob).. I don't know how well many of the people complaining paint.. but unless it's at least high tabletop quality, it's utterly silly to get bent out of shape about a model you're going to coat with thick paint with garish shading. (law of averages says most people will paint these like crap in other words..)
However, if these sell like hotcakes (see zombies, skeletons, woman warriors, barbarians, dragons, orcs, etc) then other companies with better sculptors will say.. Hey.. if those mediocre Gnolls sold by the dozen, maybe my better sculpts will sell even moar bettar!!!one!111!!
Seriously.. if you like them, even a little.. pick them up. If you get them and they suck, turn them into something else or sell them on ebay. If you can't be bothered either way then why throw so much hatred on the thread?
But not this bit. Northstar isn't a charity helping to look after sick kittens or cure cancer or anything. And there's nothing wrong with saying that you were looking forward to them and are disappointed with the final product and no longer intend to purchase. Well, as long as it's not done in a manner to pick a fight, anyway. And probably no need to go on for 14 pages repeating that one thing, either.
Any company that bothers to do even a modicum of market research (i.e. not GW) will know that there is a demand for plastic Gnoll kits but take notice of the vocal criticism of the Frost Grave kit and take steps to address those criticisms.
However, if these sell like hotcakes (see zombies, skeletons, woman warriors, barbarians, dragons, orcs, etc) then other companies with better sculptors will say.. Hey.. if those mediocre Gnolls sold by the dozen, maybe my better sculpts will sell even moar bettar!!!one!111!!
Seriously.. if you like them, even a little.. pick them up. If you get them and they suck, turn them into something else or sell them on ebay. If you can't be bothered either way then why throw so much hatred on the thread?
But not this bit. Northstar isn't a charity helping to look after sick kittens or cure cancer or anything. And there's nothing wrong with saying that you were looking forward to them and are disappointed with the final product and no longer intend to purchase. Well, as long as it's not done in a manner to pick a fight, anyway. And probably no need to go on for 14 pages repeating that one thing, either.
Any company that bothers to do even a modicum of market research (i.e. not GW) will know that there is a demand for plastic Gnoll kits but take notice of the vocal criticism of the Frost Grave kit and take steps to address those criticisms.
That's a fair point.. but if they had never released these, this discussion wouldn't have happened. Plastic gnolls would be relegated to Bones where they're lost in the sea of other Bones models OR limited to badly sculpted and overpriced wizkids Gnolls that nobody buys. I think Otherworld and Grenadier might be the only other Gnoll makers out there (that can't be right). Neither of those are exactly stirring up multi page discussions.
MLaw wrote: Azazelx - The bit about buying the kits. I think you're reading too much into what I'm saying. Like I stated before.. I need some gnolls for roleplaying and they don't have to be amazing sculpts.
That said.. if I were to refrain from buying models because they don't look like the best sculpts I've ever seen, I wouldn't own very many models. Everyone's needs and wants are going to be different but this thread took a pretty combative tone towards people who were expressing that they were happy with what we're being shown.
I understood what you were getting at, but felt it was a little hyperbolic and replied in kind - though not angrily. I can't see (m)any more plastic gnoll kits on the horizon anyway - regardless of how well these might sell. Essentially because they're not a Warhammer race, and mass army battles drive kit sales. A box here and there to a FG player or D&D GM doesn't mean much compared to however many boxes of goblins or dwarfs a warhammer or even KoW player will buy.
However, if these sell like hotcakes (see zombies, skeletons, woman warriors, barbarians, dragons, orcs, etc) then other companies with better sculptors will say.. Hey.. if those mediocre Gnolls sold by the dozen, maybe my better sculpts will sell even moar bettar!!!one!111!!
Seriously.. if you like them, even a little.. pick them up. If you get them and they suck, turn them into something else or sell them on ebay. If you can't be bothered either way then why throw so much hatred on the thread?
But not this bit. Northstar isn't a charity helping to look after sick kittens or cure cancer or anything. And there's nothing wrong with saying that you were looking forward to them and are disappointed with the final product and no longer intend to purchase. Well, as long as it's not done in a manner to pick a fight, anyway. And probably no need to go on for 14 pages repeating that one thing, either.
Any company that bothers to do even a modicum of market research (i.e. not GW) will know that there is a demand for plastic Gnoll kits but take notice of the vocal criticism of the Frost Grave kit and take steps to address those criticisms.
That's a fair point.. but if they had never released these, this discussion wouldn't have happened. Plastic gnolls would be relegated to Bones where they're lost in the sea of other Bones models OR limited to badly sculpted and overpriced wizkids Gnolls that nobody buys. I think Otherworld and Grenadier might be the only other Gnoll makers out there (that can't be right). Neither of those are exactly stirring up multi page discussions.
Oh I agree. I'd rather have a mediocre plastic Gnoll kit than NO plastic Gnoll kit. And, although I do agree with the sentiment that they fall far short of the fantastic artwork, I still like them and they fit in with the aesthetic of the other Frost Grave plastics. I will probably get one box to use in the D&D campaign I'm running (4th session tomorrow night) if I ever need Gnolls. A plastic kit is great because its good value for money (about £20-£25 for 20?) and I can customize them. One box of 20 Gnolls is more than enough, even for very large D&D encounters.
Considering the quality of all their work in recent years (and their earlier stuff) I wonder what happened there, unless it was something to do with Michael Perry's missing hand...
Weren't they having a falling out with GW about that time? Maybe I'm mistaken but I could've sworn I read that they had parted ways a while shortly after the period those were done..
When Michael lost the hand? They were on good terms for many, many years after that as far as I could tell. Their parting may well have been entirely amicable with the Perrys clearly wanting to concentrate on their own business making the historical models that are their passion, rather than an acrimonious one. The Empire State troops also came many, many years after the plastic Catachans.
Another note (not really towards Bob).. I don't know how well many of the people complaining paint.. but unless it's at least high tabletop quality, it's utterly silly to get bent out of shape about a model you're going to coat with thick paint with garish shading. (law of averages says most people will paint these like crap in other words..)
Needlessly insulting and offensive to so many people. You may as well suggest that people just play with green army men or blobs of putty if they're not at least this ------------- good a painter as defined by you.
rosafari wrote: Some people like the look of these models and some people don't, I guess they just can't be gnoll things to gnoll men.
I can't let a great post like this go by and not be commented on!
EXALTED!
(Plus, Giant Robo!)
Also a really good time to remind everyone to not make it personal, etc. etc.
I am in a somewhat different camp - the one that thinks that the models do not look as good as the box art, but will probably be 'good enough for mooks'.
I will use them for cannon fodder gnolls in Pathfinder, use the Reaper gnolls for characters, and look at the Otherworld gnoll, and wonder what is wrong with his legs.... (I like digigrade gnolls.)
Sometimes... 'good enough' is good enough.
The Auld Grump - though I would have loved it had the models looked as good as the box art.
MLaw wrote: Azazelx - The bit about buying the kits. I think you're reading too much into what I'm saying. Like I stated before.. I need some gnolls for roleplaying and they don't have to be amazing sculpts.
That said.. if I were to refrain from buying models because they don't look like the best sculpts I've ever seen, I wouldn't own very many models. Everyone's needs and wants are going to be different but this thread took a pretty combative tone towards people who were expressing that they were happy with what we're being shown.
I understood what you were getting at, but felt it was a little hyperbolic and replied in kind - though not angrily. I can't see (m)any more plastic gnoll kits on the horizon anyway - regardless of how well these might sell. Essentially because they're not a Warhammer race, and mass army battles drive kit sales. A box here and there to a FG player or D&D GM doesn't mean much compared to however many boxes of goblins or dwarfs a warhammer or even KoW player will buy.
Yeah, but you've got companies like Shieldwolf, Mierce, Titanforge, Hasslefree, and I'm sure others that DO make fantasy kits.. and they have people frequenting these boards. If they are in the spotlight it might also help companies like CMoN decide that maybe Gnolls need to be the badguy in an an expansion for a game like B-Sieged or whatever. It's not like I think tomorrow there's going to be all gnolls all the time. I just think if the discussion turns too sour it might give others the wrong impression. I think now is actually a prime time though for a race like Gnolls to make their big break. WHFB is on the ropes. KoW is seemingly open to expansion and experimentation, Kickstarter is bringing us tons of new games. So an anthromorphic (typically popular) animal race has a chance to shine.
Like I said before.. I think these are serviceable and have no illusions that they're not jaw dropping sculpts. I just think the like and dislike is being incorrectly polarized and categorized as absolute love or hate. If I'm being honest, yeah.. they're in fair 'meh territory. But again.. 'meh is fine for what I need. I'd kill for some 'meh troglodytes (dnd style) in a kit like this.
EDIT: If the painter remark is offensive remember that somebody spent hours sculpting these gnolls. Nobody seems to have a problem offending them..
Weren't they having a falling out with GW about that time? Maybe I'm mistaken but I could've sworn I read that they had parted ways a while shortly after the period those were done..
They didn't part ways with GW till just a few years ago, when they finished the last of their sculpts for The Hobbit trilogy. Michael lost his arm in 1996, two decades ago.
Parting ways with GW had nothing to do with falling with GW after Michael lost his arm, and everything to do with wanting to focus on their own business after they wrapped up their work for The Hobbit.
Any company that bothers to do even a modicum of market research (i.e. not GW) will know that there is a demand for plastic Gnoll kits but take notice of the vocal criticism of the Frost Grave kit and take steps to address those criticisms.
Is the demand especially for Gnolls, though - or just well-made plastics of any under-represented D&D mass-monster type?
Any company that bothers to do even a modicum of market research (i.e. not GW) will know that there is a demand for plastic Gnoll kits but take notice of the vocal criticism of the Frost Grave kit and take steps to address those criticisms.
Is the demand especially for Gnolls, though - or just well-made plastics of any under-represented D&D mass-monster type?
Yeah, but you've got companies like Shieldwolf, Mierce, Titanforge, Hasslefree, and I'm sure others that DO make fantasy kits.. and they have people frequenting these boards. If they are in the spotlight it might also help companies like CMoN decide that maybe Gnolls need to be the badguy in an an expansion for a game like B-Sieged or whatever. It's not like I think tomorrow there's going to be all gnolls all the time. I just think if the discussion turns too sour it might give others the wrong impression. I think now is actually a prime time though for a race like Gnolls to make their big break. WHFB is on the ropes. KoW is seemingly open to expansion and experimentation, Kickstarter is bringing us tons of new games. So an anthromorphic (typically popular) animal race has a chance to shine.
I think a bunch of mobs in a game like B-Seiged is the most likely scenario for more gnolls, rather than a boxed set of plastics from Shieldwolf, et al. I imagine that small companies like that would be less likely to produce something that someone else (aside from GW) has already done. Mierce being more of an exception than most since their resin and metal kickstarter-oriented business model is quite different.
EDIT: If the painter remark is offensive remember that somebody spent hours sculpting these gnolls. Nobody seems to have a problem offending them..
A false equivalence. Very much so, in fact.
The sculptor/producers have put out an average-at-best model kit for purchase/consumption by the general public. That's pretty much the definition of something subject for public debate and discussion which includes criticism.
Telling hobbyists - the end consumers - that the quality of their hobby-painting (which is not for sale) isn't good enough for them to have an opinion on the sculpts of something that's a consumer product is very much a dick move. Weren't you asking people to be nice and less needlessly aggressive a few posts ago? That one is pretty far on the nasty side of passive-aggressive.
Any company that bothers to do even a modicum of market research (i.e. not GW) will know that there is a demand for plastic Gnoll kits but take notice of the vocal criticism of the Frost Grave kit and take steps to address those criticisms.
Is the demand especially for Gnolls, though - or just well-made plastics of any under-represented D&D mass-monster type?
In all honesty.. both! Gnolls, non-meso Lizardmen, Troglodytes, Kobolds, Evil Dwarves, Fish People.. the list goes on but I think GW is indirectly responsible for why we haven't seen more of these. It's nobody's fault or anything but their mass fantasy game was pretty much it for so long and the notion of rank and file fantasy creatures outside of a mass combat game is still honestly a relatively new concept.
Any company that bothers to do even a modicum of market research (i.e. not GW) will know that there is a demand for plastic Gnoll kits but take notice of the vocal criticism of the Frost Grave kit and take steps to address those criticisms.
Is the demand especially for Gnolls, though - or just well-made plastics of any under-represented D&D mass-monster type?
Same difference.
/headscratch. You'd hope that companies would know without needing to do any market research or being told that better sculpts will receive more positive feedback and better sales. Then again, Mantic shows us otherwise...
Honestly, I was kinda laughing a bit about the painter thing it was meant as a joke and I was actually thinking of myself when I typed it. Being self-deprecating in the same thread I'm trying to maintain credibility seemed counterproductive when I typed it.. but I see now that my logic was flawed :(
In all honesty.. both! Gnolls, non-meso Lizardmen, Troglodytes, Kobolds, Evil Dwarves, Fish People.. the list goes on but I think GW is indirectly responsible for why we haven't seen more of these. It's nobody's fault or anything but their mass fantasy game was pretty much it for so long and the notion of rank and file fantasy creatures outside of a mass combat game is still honestly a relatively new concept.
I broadly agree with you, but think the emphasis should be looked at the other way. I think GW is why we see so many GW-style orcs and goblins and ratmen and so forth (along with ex-GW sculptors doing the sculpting) but I think the reason we've seen the R&F skew almost entirely towards WHFB races is because people want to sell their figures to the biggest (Warhammer) crowd and so they chose to make "Mountain Orcs" rather than kobolds until now. Of course, achievable HIPS tooling for fantasy model makers is also a pretty new occurrence, so hopefully we'll see more of this going forward - and hopefully with better quality sculpts. There are lots of quality sculptors out there, after all.
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MLaw wrote: Honestly, I was kinda laughing a bit about the painter thing it was meant as a joke and I was actually thinking of myself when I typed it. Being self-deprecating in the same thread I'm trying to maintain credibility seemed counterproductive when I typed it.. but I see now that my logic was flawed :(
Fair enough - there's no tone in the written word unless you make it quite explicit though - so it seemed quite a nasty and uncalled for snipe in general when I read it rather than a self-depreciating joke.
Azazelx -
Yeah, that's kinda my point.. it's really hard to know what to expect right now. We can suppose this company or that company will or won't do that but it really is a new age. Hell, I could bang out a gnoll in zbrush and next week it's a model. I don't know anything about making that into a retail ready kit but it shows that just like that.. bam.. we have whatever. I know that's not plastic tooling for a multipart kit but it also isn't that far off either in the grand scheme.
On the tone.. yeah.. I added it after the fact and didn't use emoticons and all that.. seriously though, it's funny when you think about it.. We get worked up about little non-important BS details.. then it goes up on CMoN (people still do that right?) and it looks like it's been dunked and drybrushed. To me that's like going to a Chinese restaurant and getting upset about your fried rice having salt or something.. then smothering it in soy sauce.. I dunno.. I try to find things to laugh about in everything..
Well, the tooling is a pretty big hurdle. Look at the drama and angst that both Shieldwolf and Tre' Manor (Red Box) are going through trying to produce plastics. Fantasy plastics seem to be a bit of a harder niche when compared to historicals these days - the Perrys and Warlord are both going gangbusters right now.
On the tone.. well I didn't take it personally personally, because I consider myself to be quite a decent painter, but I interact with a lot of other hobbyists on that very side of the hobby between the P&M and Wordpress blogs, and to a person they're good guys and girls who do their best and do care about the sculpts they work on - so without the joking tone being obvious it felt like you were gaking on them for no real reason.
-iPaint- wrote: Not sure where everyone is seeing cartoony for the soldiers....they look on par with offerings from Gripping Beast and Fireforge. And when painted in less-gaudy colors, I think they turn out ok.
Spoiler:
A few of the cultist heads are a bit exaggerated, though, and I've refrained from using them for mine. But the rest of the kit is actually pretty nice, and the details are improved from the soldier kit.
I'll postpone my judgement on the gnolls until I have plastic in hand. Often times, painted 3-ups have a tendency to misrepresent the plastic model at actual size.
~iPaint
To look at it another way, compare the Frostgrave model's hyena bits to the hyenas from the Lion King:
Heavily stylized, but you know they are hyenas instantly. All the characteristics that trigger "hyena" in our brains are there. When looking at the Frostgrave gnolls, honestly if they showed the model without saying what it was "gnoll" might not be my first guess. The digitigrade legs help, but that face could be simian or any other combination of animal and man done poorly. Or a goblin.
This is a great post. There is nothing hyena like about them. Honestly, they look more like goblinoid mice men. I got boxes of both the soldiers and cultists, and I regret buying the soldiers.
I hate to call out the sculptor, but honestly what I really want is a plastic kit from a small shop not done by Bob Naismith. The sculpts don't even look like he looked at any reference images of hyenas at all. The ears are so clearly the wrong shape it is painful. Little details like that make a big difference on how a model reads visually. I have bought a ton of fireforge, shieldwolf, mantic, and frostgrave plastics, and I am just ready to give somebody else a shot at making sculpts that don't fulfill my expectations.
I will say that the frostgrave cultists are some of Bob's finest work, and really a great kit. I also like most of the fireforge stuff, and the shieldwolf orcs, etc. But I wonder what they could have looked like if the manufacturers had ponied up and paid for somebody with some more classical sculpture training. There is a lot of talent out there.
Actually.. I think he looked at reference for hyenas.. maybe people shouldn't look at Disney hyenas before passing down judgement?
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Automatically Appended Next Post: Also.. all the people saying they needed longer slender snouts.. maybe you're thinking of dogs or wolves or something.. which.. hyenas are not..
MLaw wrote: Actually.. I think he looked at reference for hyenas.. maybe people shouldn't look at Disney hyenas before passing down judgement?
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Automatically Appended Next Post: Also.. all the people saying they needed longer slender snouts.. maybe you're thinking of dogs or wolves or something.. which.. hyenas are not..
Start with just the ears, do the ones on the sculpts shown look anything like the images you just posted? Honestly? If your answer is yes we literally perceive geometry different.
That is OK, to each their own etc. But to my eyes, those images are just painful reminders of what might have been.
Between Frostgrave, Otherworld, and reaper gnolls, I would actually say Frost grave comes the closest to proper ear shape. lol I find the frost grave gnolls have more hyena looking faces, witch is probably why i like them so much.
Edit:Off topic but.... I just noticed. Reaper Makes actual Hyena minatures, and they look nothing like actual hyenas lol The faces are just... wrong.... They match reaper's gnolls, but when brought back to hyena it made me realize how divergent the reaper stuff is from the animals that inspired the monsters.
MLaw wrote:Actually.. I think he looked at reference for hyenas.. maybe people shouldn't look at Disney hyenas before passing down judgement?
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Automatically Appended Next Post: Also.. all the people saying they needed longer slender snouts.. maybe you're thinking of dogs or wolves or something.. which.. hyenas are not..
I'll quote what I said elsewhere, about the first previewed pic:
I think the hands of the plastic mini are a just a wee bit stiff-looking; I think it could've used claws on it's feet instead of hooves; and I wish people didn't assume 'digitigrade' meant 'walking along with legs folded up'. But all that's small potatoes. I could accept all that. The main problem in my opinion, the thing that reminds me of those old, bad skaven, is the head. That whole, big, round, peg-toothed muppet mouth. What I mean is, it's apparently snarling so hard that it's showing it's gums all the way round, but all of the round muzzle, and lips, look too even and as flat as Bangladesh. It's some kind of uncanny valley effect that really does remind me of fake teeth and things stuck in a sock puppet's unexpressive mouth. I imagine it's based on photos like this, but even there you can see how the lips, muzzle, and even the nose are pulled right up and wrinkled, and the corners of the mouth pulled away from the tooth rows. (And also subtly pulled upwards) And I have to focus on that bit because I'm not sure what's going on with the rest of the head.
Gallahad wrote:I hate to call out the sculptor, but honestly what I really want is a plastic kit from a small shop not done by Bob Naismith.
I'm glad you said it first. Some gamers and shop owners alike regard a few oldschool sculptors as the be-all end-all of mini sculpting, no questions asked. Best I can think is that they're competent, and have extensive back-catalogues, and that's about it. I agree that the first couple of Frostgrave kits are pretty nice, but I've thought Bob wasn't averse to a bit of phoning-in since the first 6mm releases for Dark Realm Miniatures.
adamsouza wrote:Compared to these bad boys, the Frostgrave ones look magnificent
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That might not be saying much...
scarletsquig wrote:It is refreshing to see digitigrade legs done properly, the otherworld sculpt is an example of them done badly.
Well, yes, the Otherworld gnoll has bad examples of digitigrade legs - because they're plantigrade.
And like I said, I don't think the Frostgrave legs are good examples of digitigrade legs either, because they have the same flaw as so many digitigrade fantasy minis, and double the leg over at the knee. The point of digitigrade legs is to lengthen the leg and the stride. Point me out some photos of digitigrade animals trotting along with their heels up to their backsides and their knees almost scraping the ground.
Wehrkind wrote:To look at it another way, compare the Frostgrave model's hyena bits to the hyenas from the Lion King:
Heavily stylized, but you know they are hyenas instantly. All the characteristics that trigger "hyena" in our brains are there. When looking at the Frostgrave gnolls, honestly if they showed the model without saying what it was "gnoll" might not be my first guess. The digitigrade legs help, but that face could be simian or any other combination of animal and man done poorly. Or a goblin.
Yup. The Disney studios have a history of researching the heck out of the species that featured in their animated films, bringing live reference in from the thirties up 'til said lion film, at the least. Whatever thoughts or feelings pop into your head with the word 'Disney', their animators earned their chops. And knew 'em.
It's a bit different for starving mini sculptors working out of a room in their house rather than in a huge, wealthy corporation (believe me, I know) but it's not completely impossible, especially with the grand inventions of Google Images and streaming video, as MLaw has shown us. It just takes a little care and attention to detail. And maybe a book or two on the subject.
TheAuldGrump wrote:I am in a somewhat different camp - the one that thinks that the models do not look as good as the box art, but will probably be 'good enough for mooks'.
Sometimes... 'good enough' is good enough.
Aye. Twenty gnolls for twenty pounds is good enough. But I'm already wondering if someone might pull a Chapterhouse and produce alternate heads.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:They didn't part ways with GW till just a few years ago, when they finished the last of their sculpts for The Hobbit trilogy. Michael lost his arm in 1996, two decades ago.
And he can still sculpt like a maniac. I hate that guy.
(I found myself standing next to him at a game table at Salute, a couple of years ago. I had a private, starstruck fanboy moment...)
MLaw wrote: Actually.. I think he looked at reference for hyenas.. maybe people shouldn't look at Disney hyenas before passing down judgement?
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Automatically Appended Next Post: Also.. all the people saying they needed longer slender snouts.. maybe you're thinking of dogs or wolves or something.. which.. hyenas are not..
You might be misreading my post. The Disney hyenas were an example of how stylization can be done correctly, not as an example of what a wild hyena actually looks like. The problem with the FG gnoll snouts is that they are rounded like a gorilla/chimp, not longer and rectangular like a hyena. Compare these two skulls:
Now it is a little hard to see on the bottom pic, but the top pic makes roughly an equilateral triangle from the end of the snout to the outside of the eye sockets, and the bottom doesn't. The top skulls also have the eyes outside the line of the snout, while the bottom photo has the eyes nearly touching in the middle. The top of course is a picture of two hyena skulls, the bottom a gorilla. I think the gnolls shown in the sculpt have heads shaped more like the gorilla skull, while those in the art work look a look more like the top picture.
As to other pictures of hyenas, I think this one sums up most of what people associate with them:
Note the slope from hind legs to shoulder, going up, then the downward slop from shoulders to back of the head. To me, that says hyena, as it is a rather strange shape, and one that doesn't show up in any of the animals humans usually hang out with other than some of the more exotic cattle. (Turns out bears also have that shape, just you can't see it due to the hair.) Note also the fairly narrow muzzle instead of the broad, heavily lipped face of a gorilla (or the FG gnolls). Also, that funny little mohawk of hair down the spine. Now, I am not trying to claim that my perception of 'hyenaness' is the end all be all, but I think it is fair to say that people define things as 'hyena' due to a few specific characteristics (and importantly not looking like dogs, cats or humans) and the Frost Grave models miss a lot of those characteristics while the artwork shown for the set do not.
This articulate thread on hyena proportions and aesthetics, capped by Wehrkind's sublimely reasoned post above, is a prime example of why I love this forum.
Any company that bothers to do even a modicum of market research (i.e. not GW) will know that there is a demand for plastic Gnoll kits but take notice of the vocal criticism of the Frost Grave kit and take steps to address those criticisms.
I'm honestly guessing that Frostgrave chose Gnolls over Orc or Goblins and such, to be different, and sell a model that there isn't any competition for. In 30+ years of gaming I haven't seen a multipart plastic Gnoll kit, from anyone. They are essentially creating a demand for them by writing rules that encourage their use in sizable numbers.
Outside of that, I'm not sure where you are seeing a "demand" for them. Sure that are probably a lot of us that will by them because there has never been a way to grab cheap Gnolls before, but there isn's a tabletop game where there has been a need for many Gnolls before.
Anyone can critisize, and designs by committee, when that committee is made up of random denizens of the net, never make everyone happy.
They chose an art direction and went with it. If you don't like it, that doesn't mean they were wrong, it just means you don't like it.
Despite the vocal minority that dislike it, I'd be willing to wager they still Nickstarter it, without changes, and it will sell well.
adamsouza wrote: Anyone can critisize, and designs by committee, when that committee is made up of random denizens of the net, never make everyone happy.
Design by committee, is one thing. Being satisfied with creaky design or execution (from about twenty years ago), and ignoring the resulting dissatisfaction as 'internet noise' is another. You might not be able to please all of the people all of the time, but it's daft to assume that means you shouldn't try to please anybody.
it will sell well.
It could've sold even better. A lot of people got themselves all excited by the box art, then said 'erm, no thanks' when the actual sculpts rolled around. You call them the vocal minority. Do you have much proof of that? Are they that unrepresentative of gamers? Or do you pull a GW and say 'the Frostgrave gnoll market is people who buy Frostgrave miniatures'?
Edithae's right. This topic's inspired a lot of interest in gnoll minis, and not all of it regarding Frostgrave gnolls. But rather than a 'committee' pulling in all different directions to create something awful*, I see two fairly distinct camps: the people who are satisfied with the models, and the people who think they haven't reached their potential, and pretty much agree on a small set of straightforward improvements. The one thing I disagree with, the really frustrating thing, is that I think this is going to be the only plastic gnoll kit for a long time. Especially if only Frostgrave is driving demand for large numbers of gnolls.
* I've seen this used to justify GW's rules-writing abilities, in that 'the community' couldn't possibly do it right, let alone do any better. After the living rule books of the specialist games and now 9th Age, it looks like it holds less and less water.
Anyone can critisize, and designs by committee, when that committee is made up of random denizens of the net, never make everyone happy.
They chose an art direction and went with it. If you don't like it, that doesn't mean they were wrong, it just means you don't like it.
Despite the vocal minority that dislike it, I'd be willing to wager they still Nickstarter it, without changes, and it will sell well.
I'm sure they'll still sell a decent amount. Many people will always buy whatever the models are to have the "correct" models regardless of quality or better options. We've seen that with so many different GW models through the years - even long after GW stopped running games and hosting tournaments, when the "official only" sticker had long peeled off. Northstar made a smart choice to go with gnolls, since they're relatively rare in miniature form and no plastic multipart HIPS kit exists - so people won't just use their citadel goblins or bones goblins or whatever - and they can also sell them to D&D players.
I know people like to crap on Bob Naismith, but he's turned out some really good stuff in recent years as well. (Mantic's Ghouls/Zombies for example) - so he's not a crap sculptor - just uneven. Is it possible that Northstar has the same kind of issue that Mantic have - in terms of a lack of strong art direction and/or the willingness to tell sculptors to fix it or do it again? Either that or being awesomestruck by things made for you.
Now I'm not actually here to piss on anyone's parade, and I intend to bow out of the thread by and large so I don't become "that guy" here to those who are happy with the models as shown - but I do have a couple of (final?) questions:
Do you think the people who are happy with the models as shown would have been at least just as happy if the models were a close match to the box art that we have been shown? - and would you have been at least just as happy?
One more question - I was thinking about what kinds of box set Northstar could follow these up with, and thought of kobolds. Now I'm not especially familiar with D&D, but I've noticed that "kobolds" seem to come in two distinct forms - reptilian ones and mammalian ones with "dog snouts". What's up with that?
Man, I loved those early 2nd Ed AD&D kobolds (second from the left). I have a mess of the Ral Partha sculpts based on that, and they are still one of my favorite little swarmy things. The later versions look good, but almost too cute and charming. I dunno, I think I just imprinted on that one particular type of kobold and can't get used to the others I think I still have the 3 ring binder Monster Manual around here somewhere, I ought to make some copies and let my daughter color in some monsters.
So are they all officially retconned into draconic now, or are there two (related? unrelated?) "races" of kobolds?
My D&D Boardgame ones are clearly the ones from the far right, but my Bones ones are.. I dunno. 1 and 3 from that same picture? Also 2 looks like a Moria Goblin.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I think before the D&D 1st illustration gygax and co had described them as like smaller, weedier goblins so they even had yet another look,
I don't think there has ever been an explanation why they changed or any acknowledgement that they've been deliberately changed
Various Series' of Star Trek did try to explain/retcon that. I've forgotten exactly what it was, but I think that Worf, etc are the "natural" state of Klingon-ness, while a virus changed their foreheads during the TOS-era.
There was a DS9 episode where they went back in time and when asked about Klingon appearance Worf says that they don't like to talk about it with outsiders. I think they should have left it there, honestly.
Then there was a thing in Enterprise where it turns out it was due to a virus created in an attempt to make Khan-esque super soldiers.
Yanno.. this gnoll discussion started off with "Gnolls awesome" then a couple of very vocal people decided none of us were allowed to be excited about this anymore and it's kinda gone to crap since that point.
As to what fantasy kits to see from them next? Does it matter? We'll be told that whatever it is, it's rubbish so even if we like it we shouldn't buy it because it's not a really good Tre Manor sculpt. *sigh*
Multipart Kobolds might be a bit on the tedious side. I'd personally just stick with the Bones Kobolds and hope Northstar does D&Dish Lizardmen or Sahuagin types.
plastictrees wrote: So...people had differing opinions in a News and Rumours thread?
No one's telling anyone what to do, don't be such a drama queen.
No but the conversation switched from commenting on the models to commenting on other people's opinions on the models. If I like them, I'd like to be able to say so without 3 people telling me how my opinion is wrong.
I was quite excited about the Gnoll announcement, but those models... eh. I'll buy them, becasue OF COURSE I WILL BUY PLASTIC GNOLLS DUH, but I am disappointed at the missed opportunity. Still, we will see what the final models look like.
Cruentus wrote: Those are actually three-ups for the plastic gnolls? Ugh. This went from a must buy (likely several boxes - I love the concept of gnolls) to total pass. Shame.
He's assuming those are 3ups. Why would they paint a 3up? I don't think I've ever seen a company do that..
Mantic has done that in the past, and I'm sure others companies have too. They paint a 3-up resin for photography marketing etc to have pics before the molds are done (which can take a lot of time)
Seriously, if you are gonna spend all that money to get the metal molds cut, why skimp on the sculptor? I'll never understand. I'll never waste money on this company either though, so...
yes, many companies do that unfortunatly... The thing is some people have higher or lower expectations than others but people running companies use their own judgement for the level of quality they want for their line.
If they don't have a sharp artistic eye and are not too picky they come with an average or underaverage line of minis.
Not particulary speaking about northstar here or even plastic manufacturers, it's true for small metal/resin companies too (but it's more annoying for larger companies with the cost associated with plastic casting).
Another reason it that the production beeing very expensive companies try to cut cost anywhere they can, and the main cut they can do is sculpting unfortunatly (even though it's not a good idea). But for someone who don't see much difference in sculpting quality it's a quick decision to take.
With higher standards they would certainly sell more and recover the extra sculpting investment, but I guess it's a good thing for smaller companies that the market is not flooded with great, affordable plastic minis
Regarding Bob Naithsmith, I think he is a skilled and experienced sculptor, and he certainly know how to build a multipart plastic kit, which not all sculptors can do and represent a massive task. It's not a surprise so many companies use him for their plastic kits.
I don't really know him, but from what I get, he seems to enjoy doing things fast, without too much care (and consistant with old school 80-90's quality) and has fun this way. I'm sure he could do better more consistently if he was spending more time, but why would he if the company is happy with the result and doesn't want to pay more for better quality? I won't blame the sculptor here if that's what the company expect from him.
if people like the minis good for them, if you don't like don't buy
I understand people beeing upset at the missed opportunity (the kit isn't horrible, but it could be better), especialy for a plastic kit, as now it would be more difficult for another company to come with a better kit with this one in the market
adamsouza wrote: Honestly, I would be less happy with them if they were in the croutched over, running poses show on the box cover.
Doggy style Kobolds were a D&D 1E and earlier thing. Where everyone had this image for reference.
The Reptilian, dragon, heritage was reinforced in later editions, and their appearance in the art evolved.
I´m honestly surprised no one has done decent modern/draconic kobold minis, they seem to be quiet popular from what I can see.
Not just in plastic. Draconic kobolds in general. From what I can tell a lot of the kobolds minis today are by companies who made them back in the dog face Era? After their look was updated to be more draconic in 3rd no one really bothered to make new minis.
Most draconic kobolds minis are pathfinder and d&d prepaints. Witch the style and even size can range a lot not just from series to series but even kobolds from the same set
Probably best not to compare _anyone's_ sculpting of humans to the Perry brothers, actually. Perry sculpts will always look better, because they are better.
catachan_jungle_fighters.jpg
empire_state_troops.gif
hey now, Catachan were their first plastic kit... everyone gets one flub. Plus I'm sure everyone would have loved to have them go rogue and defy Mike McVey and sculpt truescale Dutch and Dillon, but they were probably liking their paychecks at the time and The Red Era was in full swing.
Empire state troops, really? The sword/board & halberd plastic kit is 10000 times better than the 7th edition computer sculpted guys with no shoes. They're great for WHFB and any Italian Ren historicals.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Didn't the Perrys sculpt the Terminator Genisis minis? Those were pretty bad. One even had a Catachan face.
I suspect the Perrys have trouble sculpting anyone from a civilization that uses toilet paper.
They sculped the first run metal figs - Kyle Reese and the series 800 model 101 (Schwarzenegger) and Sarah Connor. Bob Naismith sculpted the plastics.
plastictrees wrote: So...people had differing opinions in a News and Rumours thread?
No one's telling anyone what to do, don't be such a drama queen.
No but the conversation switched from commenting on the models to commenting on other people's opinions on the models. If I like them, I'd like to be able to say so without 3 people telling me how my opinion is wrong.
Yeah, the conversation was "gnolls are awesome". Then someone had to ruin it by posting photos of the actual plastic gnolls. That's why we can't have nice conversations any more: Mantic-level miniature design incompetence kills everything.
plastictrees wrote: So...people had differing opinions in a News and Rumours thread?
No one's telling anyone what to do, don't be such a drama queen.
No but the conversation switched from commenting on the models to commenting on other people's opinions on the models. If I like them, I'd like to be able to say so without 3 people telling me how my opinion is wrong.
Yeah, the conversation was "gnolls are awesome". Then someone had to ruin it by posting photos of the actual plastic gnolls. That's why we can't have nice conversations any more: Mantic-level miniature design incompetence kills everything.
Yeah, but see, I have a crapload of Reaper Bones (including gnolls) so those sculpts aren't a deal breaker for me.... AS long as they are priced at or below Bones KS level pricing.. IF they are priced like a GW multipart (which I doubt) then they're a hard PASS.
Aren't they $35 for 20? That's WHFB infantry pricing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If they were $20 for 20, I'd be much more forgiving towards the sculpts and even buy a box to see what I could do with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If they were $20 for 20, I'd be much more forgiving towards the sculpts and even buy a box to see what I could do with them.
Hmm.. lemme look.
Brigade (Northstar's US distributor) lists Frostgrave soldiers $31 for 20 ($1.55 each)
GW lists a box of Free Company at $35 for 20
However, GW lists a box of 10 Gors for $24.75, A box of15 Saurus Guard for $55, 10 Ironbreakers for $50, 20 Stormvermin for $49.50, 10 White Lions for $41.25, 10 Greatswords for $41.25, 20 Saurus Warriors for $38, 10 Bloodletters are $29
(I listed all of that out because I haven't priced them in a year if I had to guess).
For actual regular humans that you can get from many places.. GW is really close in price to Frostgrave and other historicals. The further from that they get, the higher the price seems to get. I think Lizardman Saurus and Gors are probably the closest to Gnolls since they're not human but also not really small like goblins or skaven or whatever. Bloodletters are pretty close too. The prices on those are all over the place from roughly $60 for 20 down to $38 for 20. Putting the lowest there at $1.90 per model.
Reaper DOES make Gnolls. Theirs are mostly $3 a pop with one at $2.49. They aren't multipart and most of the ones I own need work to straighten out the weapons.
Their metal ones range $4.99 to $17 each.
Ral Partha Gnolls through Ironwind Metals are $30 for 12.
Otherworld Gnolls are 11 pound for 2.
So. I don't know that saying a box of GW fantasy infantry is $35 is very accurate as they seem to price based on newness of a kit and how good it is in the game.. plus how much of a niche they have on that unit. Reaper Bones is the next cheapest option and those ARE gnolls.
To compare that's $1.55 each for the Frostgrave Gnolls. GW approx $1.90+, Reaper $2.99+ (one at 2.49)
Yes, you can get various deals off on all of this.. however, any time I post about Miniature Market etc, I hear that those places aren't available here or there so I went for MSRP.
Empire state troops, really? The sword/board & halberd plastic kit is 10000 times better than the 7th edition computer sculpted guys with no shoes.
Those are the guys I'm talking about/meaning. I might have gotten the kit name wrong, since I've never bought a lot of Empire - especially post-3rd ed.
MLaw wrote: Question.. Do the Nickstarters usually offer the upcoming boxed sets at a discount?
You will pay the retail price for the box during the Nickstarter if you just want to preorder the box and nothing else. Different levels will give you different levels of freebies... At the highest level, you'll get a few metal minis for free and a few resin bits and pieces. Nickstarter is just a fun play on words for pre-order - the product is ready to go and production may even already be paid for. It's just a small reward for jumping in early and ordering direct from NorthStar.
Just one point after reading the last few pages, but NorthStar are a major distributer of toy soldiers in the uk. If I was going to launch a model range, Nick Eyres would be one of the first person I'd talk to. He knows what sells and what doesn't. He also knows who he is selling to and I doubt Dakka Dakka is representative of who he sells to or markets to. Perhaps he is a bit old school but i wouldn't dismiss guys with his experience in the model industry just because you dislike a sculpt.
How soon will we get to see the gnoll sprues. Also, how do you pronounce gnoll? I thought "knoll" or "nole" but the earlier pun in this thread assumes "nawl" or "nall".
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok fine... it is pronounced nole, like mole with one less bump. from an old English writer who spelled it gnole, nolle, nole apparently interchangeably.
This one is out in November, so a bit of time to wait, however, there are two other ebooks and Into the Breeding Pits coming out before then, so plenty Frostgrave to keep you entertained.
I'm guessing the plastics are Barbarians, by the cover art.
This one is out in November, so a bit of time to wait, however, there are two other ebooks and Into the Breeding Pits coming out before then, so plenty Frostgrave to keep you entertained.
I'm guessing the plastics are Barbarians, by the cover art.
I know the soldiers aren't exactly "that" individual but wouldn't barbarians be a bit of a gamble since they exist as plastic historic models?
They could be Conan type barbarians. More tribal styled could be pretty cool, too. I'd rather see another non-human set though. Lizardmen, for instance. Particularly if they aren't Mesoamerican lizards.
Earlier I mentioned the D&D boardgame gnolls from Temple of Elemental Evil.. and someone said they had regular person legs. I actually just check the ones I own and they have the same dog legs as the Tre Manor Reaper ones I also own.. so.. something to consider..
and their store pics, but this is really helpful - thanks again!
I need gnolls, I have been searching for gnolls. It's like this game has been made for me :9 if the gnolls are as good as the soldiers and cultists this will make me happy.
