I think we need some people to go over there and educate them. I'm really surprised to see that level of devotion at B&C, but then again it is a Space Marine focused site, so undying loyalty to the Imperium is not unexpected
What's with the mod threatening to lock the post if Kirby gets brought up again? Is this the only site where we're allowed to discuss the guy who's been running the show for GW for 20 years?
Business and Data Analyst for a major UK bank here. I have serious concerns about GWs future and would not support extending credit to them unless a new business plan is presented. They are showing strong signs of being in a financial death spiral and so far have not presented any evidence that they're aware of this or of a plan to combat it.
The strong sides to GW are:
- The brand
- Plastics technology (compared to the rest of wargaming)
- Legacy customer base
- UK high street dominance
I've been strongly of the opinion that GW have been operating in the Lord of the Rings bubble MK2, only this time it's the 40k bubble and it's burst. Last time they were able to use the rest of their product portfolio as leverage while restructuring their business plan, but now they have no other products. The Hobbit is dead according to the financial reports, and if Warhammer Fantasy has now dropped out of the top 5 wargames then it certainly doesn't have the ability to save GW.
GW have been running their business with extremely high prices and extremely low value compared to their competitors. The main reason that the bubble last this long is because of the social dominance of their primary product. That has now gone.
What's with the mod threatening to lock the post if Kirby gets brought up again? Is this the only site where we're allowed to discuss the guy who's been running the show for GW for 20 years?
Probably not, but holding up other forums as paragons of happy-happy joy-joy isn't a great argument unless you're intimately familiar with the moderation and know for a fact that dissenting voices haven't simply been erased.
I haven't been to B&C for probably 2 years, actually this thread is quite mild apart from the ridiculously contrived pricing examples by coffeegrunt and the economist switching to acturial which is definitely a good thing for economics.
The Warhammer Forum hasn't kicked off this time round, which is good as I don't have to read any tosh by Chris Applesford, but this time round we have WhispersofBlood
BoLS spread everything over so many clickbait blog posts I'm not going to go there right now, but any forum posts by Mr Mystery are bound to be.....irrelevant.
What's with the mod threatening to lock the post if Kirby gets brought up again? Is this the only site where we're allowed to discuss the guy who's been running the show for GW for 20 years?
Probably. Mods on B&C and Warseer seem very afraid that GW is going to come and shut them down if they say anything bad about them, and enforce almost asinine strict "Stay on target" discussion of topics, threatening to warn/ban/lock if something goes off topic even slightly or starts to bring up issues with GW people by name. Other than the GW General forums on Warseer, the place seems to be a GW Propaganda mill, not quite as bad as BOLS though.They also seem to have a very strict "Don't ever question, do as we say because we said so" kind of jackboot mentality; I recall once I asked how something was considered offtopic when it was related, and the answer was "Because <mod> said it was off topic". Not good enough reason for me.
Can we at least agree this forum has a little bit of a 40k bias? Also, this is a thread about GW, who's biggest seller is 40k. Finally, many people are posting about the issues with 40k contributing to these 'problems'. I assume they're in the wrong place too? Thanks for adding value to the thread.
They had a Kirby topic, one of the BL authors (A D-B) and another board member got into it, but they clearly had a history.
It also looks like some more stuff was posted and deleted in that topic from the way it ended and a comment in the annual report topic, so I probably wouldn't hold it against B&C in this instance.
It's not so much the rah-rahing that's going on, but the horribly inaccurate and sometimes plainly fictitious numbers being bandied about that is truly disturbing.
Can we at least agree this forum has a little bit of a 40k bias? Also, this is a thread about GW, who's biggest seller is 40k. Finally, many people are posting about the issues with 40k contributing to these 'problems'. I assume they're in the wrong place too? Thanks for adding value to the thread.
Off Topic - 691652
What's your point again?
EDIT
Actually, it's 15259 in Off Topic, you said posts but quoted threads. Nevertheless, it means that random nonsense is probably one of the top two or three sections in the site, doesn't make it less a wargaming site.
EDIT 2
But there are in fact, more posts in Off Topic than 40K Discussion, just in fewer threads.
Can we at least agree this forum has a little bit of a 40k bias? Also, this is a thread about GW, who's biggest seller is 40k. Finally, many people are posting about the issues with 40k contributing to these 'problems'. I assume they're in the wrong place too? Thanks for adding value to the thread.
Off Topic - 691652
What's your point again?
In fairness though, if you ignored all the posts that include a Dakka meme, there's only like 5 posts on that board
Yes but if you remove people arguing about rule for X, mis-spelt phone texts about "I'm gonna buy x wololol" and wish-listing, you probably need to move that decimal point a couple of places to the left.
I've noticed a number of forums get turned into shelters of timid little mice by GW's fansite-smashing antics, and several that have now the equivalent of brown-shirt wearing moderators policing the content of the forum users with an iron fist. Fortunately, Dakka has remained a pretty relaxed place to discuss things in a relaxed manner (for the most part.. except when the personal digs start creeping in..). Which, I think is just as well, as I don't think any amount of snivelling and subservience will matter a damn if GW's legal teams decide a hit is in order to justify their fees for a while longer.
Can we at least agree this forum has a little bit of a 40k bias? Also, this is a thread about GW, who's biggest seller is 40k. Finally, many people are posting about the issues with 40k contributing to these 'problems'. I assume they're in the wrong place too? Thanks for adding value to the thread.
Off Topic - 691652
What's your point again?
I was counting threads, you counted messages. Threads in Off-Topic - 15,259. Anyway, I think this is going a little 'Off-Topic'. Maybe +1 to the thread count? Still not sure you're quite up to 40k General.
Regarding the BnC thread, it's not even "all is fine and unicorns and rainbows and cupcakes". At best the opinion is 50/50. It's just that the arguments of one side is, to put it frankly, mildly idiotic.
"They're been there for years, they'll be here for years to come."
Well, I'm not arrogant enough to say for certain that GW will indeed go under. But don't be arrogant to assume that they will: the numbers are pretty fething bad. Rome stood for years and years as an empire and where is Rome now? Longetivity might indicate staying power, but that doesn't mean your company is invulnerable to stupid decisions.
Yeah, that report doesn't look very good when you take the raw numbers at face value.
Uh, isn't that kind of the point?
"They're releasing all these nice stuff like 7th ed. and Space Marines, so they must be doing good!"
And they lost profit despite those releases, so... does that mean they're doing good?
I'm all for a good discussion but at least make an efort to make your arguments, I dunno, sane?
Mmm... one reason for the loss of profits is the horrible management of the company's IP in the digital realm. They should be improving royalties, not decreasing them by 75%. It's 2014, it's not really acceptable to see shrinking profits in this area. It's essentially free money, and it's not going to be improved through iPad apps.
"One of the big reasons why Games Workshop has been ferocious about its IP is its arrangements with third party computer game developers, like the now-defunct THQ. Back in 2009, royalty payments on that IP made up nearly half the company's profits. Things have changed significantly since then; in fiscal year 2013 royalty payments dropped £3.5 million, going down to only £1 million, and while there was some improvement in fiscal year 2014, it was only up £0.4 million."
I predict Kirby's replacement will have experience with merchandizing and digital publishing.
Sillycybin wrote: Does anyone think this would be a good time to become involved in GW as a job? Would someone who understands the hobby side of things turn the company around?
I think a good CEO can sell anything, and it doesn't matter if you're into the HHHobby or not at all. What they need is a CEO who doesn't openly scoff at the idea of doing market research, advertising, or sales.
heartserenade wrote: Regarding the BnC thread, it's not even "all is fine and unicorns and rainbows and cupcakes". At best the opinion is 50/50. It's just that the arguments of one side is, to put it frankly, mildly idiotic.
"They're been there for years, they'll be here for years to come."
Well, I'm not arrogant enough to say for certain that GW will indeed go under. But don't be arrogant to assume that they will: the numbers are pretty fething bad. Rome stood for years and years as an empire and where is Rome now? Longetivity might indicate staying power, but that doesn't mean your company is invulnerable to stupid decisions.
Yeah, that report doesn't look very good when you take the raw numbers at face value.
Uh, isn't that kind of the point?
"They're releasing all these nice stuff like 7th ed. and Space Marines, so they must be doing good!"
And they lost profit despite those releases, so... does that mean they're doing good?
I'm all for a good discussion but at least make an efort to make your arguments, I dunno, sane?
Which is why that site is shrinking in popularity.
Now the the Crux of the matter.
The corporation will continue to shrink until the last bastion of strength is Britain. And that is where it will stagnate. They will continue to do business with those indies that will continue to buy a product to them. But the opportunity for GW to be something big died in 2006 and the beginning of reduction of quality services began. GW will not suddenly collapse but just wither away into a nationalistic and singular company brand of a game.
Their Brand could be considered TOXIC. No Multinational corporation wants to deal with plastic man dolls with this much negativity.
Next regardless on what Kirby says about resigning he WILL be involved with said corporation, so there will be no change in thought processes in management. His preamble states all that needs to be stated about his mindset.
Finally all of you White Knights out there. Your precious little game at one time could have been mainstream. Could have taught the values of working with your hands and creating beautiful items without be cast typed as one of those trolls that live in the basement that has no life.
But the greed of your god emperor Kirby has made this impossible now. You missed your chance to have wargaming become mainstream like D&D did in the 80's. The actual value of your game is in your own mind as the people are dumping their models on Ebay. They are tired of yours and the company's BS.
Business is business and I've been in business longer than many of you white knights been born. There is nothing wrong in making money. What is wrong is the shafting your customer base and how it is being done. And to many.... enough is enough within this hobby.
The years of financial mumbo jumbo will continue. GW will SHRINK back to Britain as it's last strong point. And Kirby will continue to milk to company dry.
Now I know nothing about finances whatsoever beyond business studies GCSE and a passing interest in economics, but as a "hobbyist" if I were financially invested in GW, I would not be concerned about the drop in profits - this is explained in the cost of redundancies and the website, which are one-offs.
What would bother me is the drop in revenue. Sure it picked up a bit in the second half, but it's still down on last year by a noticable amount. I would be asking only two questions. 1.Why is this? Yes the internet can speculate all it likes, but only GW management know the real figures. 2. How do we improve it? It seems strange to me, as someone with know experience in business management whatsoever, that you could have such a drop in revenue without any plan of how to increase it. Even if it's a cursory acknowledgement or some token gesture, just something to try to pull the punters in.
Personally if I were CEO, I'd probably be pretty conservative. I would hire a proper HR team to do their job properly (typical internet stuff, have a facebook page that shares peoples' paintings, c&p some old white dwarf onto the website as free content, much more communication between the rule devs and the fanbase, etc etc). I wouldn't drop prices, because imo that would act the same way as deflation does in the real economy and choke the demand as consumers wait for prices to fall further. Instead I would make prices rise gradually below inflation for a while.
I'd also streamline GW stores, chop the unprofitable ones and divert their funding into the more popular high-volume gw stores. Letting little timmies run around is fine, so long as their are other staffers available to cater to customer types - people who come in knowing exactly what they want to buy, come in, buy it and leave; other customers who might be browsing for something to buy but not nessesarily right at that moment, people who might need hobbying advice, etc etc. If you're going to spend money on personell, spend it efficiently.
Also as a hobbyist I would have the rules guys branch out into alternating rulesets for 40k - large scale, skirmish, tankhammer. I'd also have a dedicated Specialist Games section, lots of new limited edition box sets.
I kinda agree. Unless there's an incredibly massive shift, VERY quickly indeed, GW is not even going to have half a look in into making Wargaming more accessible / more mainstream now.
If anything, it's going to be - and is - Star Trek Attack Wing and X-Wing now. Even my local comic shop has started stocking them, not to mention the occasions when Waterstones (the last major high street book shop chain) has it in stock.
I wouldn't call someone insane for putting good odds on Mars Attacks being a breakout - in Europe at least. There has supposedly been crazy distributor purchases for that there.
For months I've been predicting that this report would be good, and see a big turn-around in sales compared to the half-year statement. But no no, continue to put words into my mouth.
tyrannosaurus wrote: Or maybe we just have a 'toxic' community who seek to inflate any negativity?
Or maybe we don't have our heads in the clouds drinking the GW cool-aid. And you're the one who entered the thread calling this discussion a "circle jerk", so maybe look carefully at the glass house you're in before you start throwing rocks.
Daedleh wrote: Business and Data Analyst for a major UK bank here.
No you're not. You're just a hater participating in circle jerk inside a toxic community! If you don't like GW, then stop playing 40K. How can you criticise a business for wanting to make money?
There. Now I've summed up the (so-called) "counter-arguments" to everything you've said, we can get back on track.
For months I've been predicting that this report would be good, and see a big turn-around in sales compared to the half-year statement. But no no, continue to put words into my mouth.
Confirmed, we thought that 7th + SMs + IG + IK etc would have been enough to lift the sinking ship up a little longer. We were wrong - it was worse than we thought. SMs *did* sell really well judging by all the painting and army threads that popped up on dakka, not to mention over a grand spent on them by me but even SMs weren't enough to do much other than reduce the losses - sales across the board must have been horrible, which is why they rushed the 7th ed release to get whatever they could into the last report. It must have been horrible before that.
Finally all of you White Knights out there. Your precious little game at one time could have been mainstream. Could have taught the values of working with your hands and creating beautiful items without be cast typed as one of those trolls that live in the basement that has no life.
I still remember fondly the days when GW was trying to do this. I can still quote the ad for heroquest that was played during saturday morning cartoons, strange thing was, so could most of the kids from my school who had no interest in the game.
It was a missed opportunity to keep it going.
"fire of wrath"
"i'll use my broadsword"
More than 20 years on I still remember this, that's good marketing. How no marketing is better I will never know. Luxury branding is one thing, not advertising a luxury brand is another thing entirely. It's slowed. How are people supposed to know your goods are luxury items if you don't tell people they are?
Finally all of you White Knights out there. Your precious little game at one time could have been mainstream. Could have taught the values of working with your hands and creating beautiful items without be cast typed as one of those trolls that live in the basement that has no life.
I still remember fondly the days when GW was trying to do this. I can still quote the ad for heroquest that was played during saturday morning cartoons, strange thing was, so could most of the kids from my school who had no interest in the game. It was a missed opportunity to keep it going. "fire of wrath" "i'll use my broadsword"
More than 20 years on I still remember this, that's good marketing. How no marketing is better I will never know. Luxury branding is one thing, not advertising a luxury brand is another thing entirely. It's slowed. How are people supposed to know your goods are luxury items if you don't tell people they are?
This. We need adverts of a teen in a dark suit with a Rolex, surrounded by bikini models, rolling dice, possibly on a table in the back of a massive stretch limo. Then it fades to black and the words "Because I play Space Marines" fades in, followed by the GW logo.
Or at least that is what GW might think would be a good advert...
I'd say you are right on the money there malus.
Over here we seem to have an explosion or car company ads that present product as luxury, strangely the adds seem to have 3 boxes to tick and that's all that's needed.
1. A model or 3
2. the product
3. music
Finally all of you White Knights out there. Your precious little game at one time could have been mainstream. Could have taught the values of working with your hands and creating beautiful items without be cast typed as one of those trolls that live in the basement that has no life.
I still remember fondly the days when GW was trying to do this. I can still quote the ad for heroquest that was played during saturday morning cartoons, strange thing was, so could most of the kids from my school who had no interest in the game.
It was a missed opportunity to keep it going.
"fire of wrath"
"i'll use my broadsword"
More than 20 years on I still remember this, that's good marketing. How no marketing is better I will never know. Luxury branding is one thing, not advertising a luxury brand is another thing entirely. It's slowed. How are people supposed to know your goods are luxury items if you don't tell people they are?
Well, GW and Milton Bradley together....
My girlfriend's first fantasy game was Heroquest - she and her mother used to play it together. (And we all played it on Thanksgiving - I still own two boxes.)
Sillycybin wrote: Does anyone think this would be a good time to become involved in GW as a job? Would someone who understands the hobby side of things turn the company around?
Normally you don't board a sinking ship (even do it may take 2 years to sink)
Which is why that site is shrinking in popularity.
...
Finally all of you White Knights out there. Your precious little game at one time could have been mainstream. Could have taught the values of working with your hands and creating beautiful items without be cast typed as one of those trolls that live in the basement that has no life.
But the greed of your god emperor Kirby has made this impossible now. You missed your chance to have wargaming become mainstream like D&D did in the 80's.
So true. I remember that as late as the middle 00s, around these parts GW started to be fething everywhere. Many magazine stands carried White Dwarf, the Warhammer comics were at every train station book vendor, every regular book store had some Black Library novels, a lot of toy stores had a rack of GW boxes, and when you said you played Warhammer, your chances were good you'd get something else than a blank stare.
Naturally, all of this was undesirable and is gone now.
And the local GW store moved from a large store (that was expandable for events) in Vienna's oldest compartment store to a janitor's closet on the high street that you can barely see when walking by.
Yeah, everything's fine, no need to make a fuzz over the numbers.
Which is why that site is shrinking in popularity.
...
Finally all of you White Knights out there. Your precious little game at one time could have been mainstream. Could have taught the values of working with your hands and creating beautiful items without be cast typed as one of those trolls that live in the basement that has no life.
But the greed of your god emperor Kirby has made this impossible now. You missed your chance to have wargaming become mainstream like D&D did in the 80's.
So true. I remember that as late as the middle 00s, around these parts GW started to be fething everywhere. Many magazine stands carried White Dwarf, the Warhammer comics were at every train station book vendor, every regular book store had some Black Library novels, a lot of toy stores had a rack of GW boxes, and when you said you played Warhammer, your chances were good you'd get something else than a blank stare.
Naturally, all of this was undesirable and is gone now.
It's been a deliberate branding decision by the company. The company has attempted to rebrand itself into a premium direction in response to the increase in competitors over the past 5-10 years (...and yes, the company is most likely very aware of the competition, despite publicly claiming that they "don't have any" - premium brands often make such claims in an attempt to further their own "unique, high quality" image of standing out from everyone else).
This coincides with their increase in prices, far more selective availability of product (you don't find them all over the place in bookstores or magazine stands anymore), limited edition product being pumped out, etc. These are all hallmark premium branding strategies. They even say it themselves: "We consciously and deliberately pursue a niche market model [...] We know that, for a niche like ours, people who are interested in collecting fantasy miniatures will choose the best quality and be prepared to pay what they are worth. [...] We make the best fantasy miniatures in the world"
Whether any of this has been executed correctly (or if it was even a smart strategy for GW to begin with) is a good question. I have a feeling this may have caused damage to the hobby in general.
The problem is that plastic toys are not premium brands however they try to spin it, most premium brands have a(n implied) status to it.
So if i wear ray-bans, Rolex's, expensive clothing, it may give of a status in the normal community. But in the gaming community GW has not that status
they think themselves of.
Yeah they could at least start doing characters in a real resin or back in metal rather than put more and more in plastic if they want to be taken seriously in the quality department.
Baragash wrote: ... but any forum posts by Mr Mystery are bound to be.....irrelevant.
That kinda goes without saying, but I am interested to know how he might try and defend this. I mean, how does one spin a report like this and make it sound good (outside of Kirky double-speak and playing the victim).
Jehan-reznor wrote: The problem is that plastic toys are not premium brands however they try to spin it, most premium brands have a(n implied) status to it.
So if i wear ray-bans, Rolex's, expensive clothing, it may give of a status in the normal community. But in the gaming community GW has not that status
they think themselves of.
I get what you mean, but in practice a premium brand doesn't necessarily refer to a product or service that adds social status. It's really just marketing lingo for a brand that adds more perceived value for a proportionately higher consumer cost. In pretty much every product and service field you can and do have competing "value flanking" and "premium" brands. Even in things like ice cream, or diapers. It's really just a differentiation strategy in marketing, but it's more heavily emphasized in brands that actually deliver increased social status as part of the value offering.
The issue with GW is not that it has attempted to become a premium brand. The issue is that GW executed it horribly. Too many price hikes, too fast. Cutting communication with consumers. Turning GW stores from real hobby centres to one-man sales points. Etc, etc.
I would not be surprised if most of GW's disgruntled ex-consumers would not have a problem with high product prices (within reason; I'm not talking about a £500 tactical squad) if the value was there: constant engagement with the community, balanced and playtested rules, WD mag with great content, a website with hobby articles & batreps that made you excited about the games, Gamesdays that worthy of their name, etc. Prices become a problem to the consumer when they don't feel like they are getting adequate value from the product (and also when they can simply no longer afford them). When you look at it from that perspective, GW isn't actually a premium brand at all; it's an expensive mediocre brand.
As someone who happily spends $100 on single 56 or 75mm metal and resin models just cos they are pretty I still have a problem with that. I'm happy to spend more if I see the value there, and being a good (or even just not gakky) company is part of that, but GW do need to step up the quality of their sculpts and get a 'premium' material to reach the point of being a 'premium' brand.
The issue with GW is not that it has attempted to become a premium brand. The issue is that GW executed it horribly. Too many price hikes, too fast. Cutting communication with consumers. Turning GW stores from real hobby centres to one-man sales points. Etc, etc.
.
The biggest problem with establishing themselves as a premium brand is that the products are not good enough.
the do not make 'the best miniatures in the world' , and never have. In the '90's Confrontation eclipsed them as a range, now Corvus Belli produce models of consitantly higher quality, and I would suggest, having seen them now, that the Malifaux plastics are technically better use of the material than GWs production are capable of, even if the aesthetics of those are not nevessarily to my taste.
Perrys produce better line infantry at cheaper prices, McVey produce better quality, in sculpt and material, character models than GW do, I can buy a full limited edition resin character for £13 from McVey, or a plastic space marine for £18.
And then we come to the other part of the equation, rules. GWs rules are the worst Ive ever come across when it comes to actually playing a game. I've used homebrew concoctions from some guy at a club that offered a better and easier to follow gaming process and required less 'discussion' about what something means between players. And yet the rules are the most expensive in the entire industry.
Being a premium brand is not just putting the price up, you need a tangible lead over everything else, GW are just putting the prices up whilst there products slip further behind the leaders of the industry for quality.
Kilkrazy wrote: It could have been worse. They pulled it back a bit in the second half, with 7th edition and so on.
Though like you I thought it was going to be better than it turned out.
Considering the sheer volume of releases in the last FY - about the only way it could have been worse is for GW to burn to the ground...though at least there, they are insured (Kirby told us as much...).
Seriously, they released a new edition of their flagship game...released a new edition of their flagship army (and 5 or 6 other Codices)...released dozens of supplements...new kits...and did some stuff with WFB and the Hobbit (though to be perfectly honest with those...I really don't know what). After all of that, the best they could do is manage not to go into debt.
Based off the sales data that was leaked from the CHS case, GW's sales are front loaded at roughly 50% of the total sales for the lifespan of the product. Most people who will ever buy it - but it within a month of its release (exceptions of course for exceptionally long lived core figures of course). GW knew this which is why they were releasing new products at a break neck speed. If they want to have anything like this year next year, they will need to continue to do those releases at that rate. To improve, they will need to increase the speed (though I do believe a big issue is they have tapped out most their consumers).
Of course, they could change their modus operandi to grow their customer base again...but there isn't any indication of that happening (either in actions...or in the management statements from the FY report). You also wouldn't see a quick return on that change, as they have managed to burn a lot of bridges over the past few years.
Sure, it is possible that their new webstore will pay for itself (unlikely - as since their first annual reports direct sales have gone from 9% to 13% with 4 different webstore designs). The cuts in manufacturing from the US might save them significantly (I would guess large portions of any savings will be eaten by increased shipping costs...not to mention labor rates in the UK versus Memphis - Memphis is cheap for labor). The shutting down of regional HQs will save a bit, but they will also need to spend more on oversight for their far flung operations and by their own estimations it will only save £2 million per year - not nearly enough to make up what they are down (and that is their own estimations...which based on what I have seen of estimates of cost savings - will likely not reflect reality). They might manage to have a blockbuster release in their licensed products - though from what I have seen of those...nothing really says DoW to me (the THQ royalties used to amount to 20-40% of their profits).
Just had a Facebook argument with someone that said GW is "too big to fail" and that bacause they are showing profit, there is no sign of them going down that road. I was about to fire back, then found out he works for GW. No point in arguing, he has his head in the sand. Also, I don't remember who said it but someone said that GW is tough because it survived the Regan years: sorry guy, economically the Regan years rocked.
The issue with GW is not that it has attempted to become a premium brand. The issue is that GW executed it horribly. Too many price hikes, too fast. Cutting communication with consumers. Turning GW stores from real hobby centres to one-man sales points. Etc, etc.
.
The biggest problem with establishing themselves as a premium brand is that the products are not good enough.
the do not make 'the best miniatures in the world' , and never have. In the '90's Confrontation eclipsed them as a range, now Corvus Belli produce models of consitantly higher quality, and I would suggest, having seen them now, that the Malifaux plastics are technically better use of the material than GWs production are capable of, even if the aesthetics of those are not nevessarily to my taste.
Perrys produce better line infantry at cheaper prices, McVey produce better quality, in sculpt and material, character models than GW do, I can buy a full limited edition resin character for £13 from McVey, or a plastic space marine for £18.
And then we come to the other part of the equation, rules. GWs rules are the worst Ive ever come across when it comes to actually playing a game. I've used homebrew concoctions from some guy at a club that offered a better and easier to follow gaming process and required less 'discussion' about what something means between players. And yet the rules are the most expensive in the entire industry.
Being a premium brand is not just putting the price up, you need a tangible lead over everything else, GW are just putting the prices up whilst there products slip further behind the leaders of the industry for quality.
I agree with everything. They just don't deliver enough for the prices they charge and it's finally starting to bite them in the ass now.
The issue with GW is not that it has attempted to become a premium brand. The issue is that GW executed it horribly. Too many price hikes, too fast. Cutting communication with consumers. Turning GW stores from real hobby centres to one-man sales points. Etc, etc.
.
The biggest problem with establishing themselves as a premium brand is that the products are not good enough.
the do not make 'the best miniatures in the world' , and never have. In the '90's Confrontation eclipsed them as a range, now Corvus Belli produce models of consitantly higher quality, and I would suggest, having seen them now, that the Malifaux plastics are technically better use of the material than GWs production are capable of, even if the aesthetics of those are not nevessarily to my taste.
Perrys produce better line infantry at cheaper prices, McVey produce better quality, in sculpt and material, character models than GW do, I can buy a full limited edition resin character for £13 from McVey, or a plastic space marine for £18.
And then we come to the other part of the equation, rules. GWs rules are the worst Ive ever come across when it comes to actually playing a game. I've used homebrew concoctions from some guy at a club that offered a better and easier to follow gaming process and required less 'discussion' about what something means between players. And yet the rules are the most expensive in the entire industry.
Being a premium brand is not just putting the price up, you need a tangible lead over everything else, GW are just putting the prices up whilst there products slip further behind the leaders of the industry for quality.
I agree with everything. They just don't deliver enough for the prices they charge and it's finally starting to bite them in the ass now.
That's been the case for the past 10/15 years though. What changed in the past twelve months, when prices afaik barely rose at all?
Even if the price stays the same, the value can decreases if the quality of the product goes down. Poor(er) rules, less balance (Taudar was fun!) and the DLC flood all decrease the value of every product in the game for many people. Decreased value works similarly to a price increase in peoples purchasing decisions so yeah... less sales is the result.
GW seem to be confusing themselves with Forge World. It's Forge World that makes the premium models not GW. How can you call plastic production models "premium"? If that's the case people had better hang on to their "premium" Airfix and Tamiya models
Increased release pace is certainly a good thing, but they still need to seriously expand their customer base. Even if the product was perfect (which it exactly isn't), there still is a limit how much money the existing customers can spend, no matter how much GW releases. Their absolute refusal to market their product is bizarre. If you already aren't a GW customer, how you're even going to learn their games exist? Randomly walking into a GW store may work in UK, but not in the rest of the world they're much scarcer. A gateway boxed game (in style of Hero Quest or Space Crusade) sold in big chain stores, attending industry events such as Gen Con, and trying to maintain some online presence outside their own website arel all things that would surely yield results with relatively little cost.
Even their idea of premium is delusional. They claim premium/luxury products, but it's a cheap material (plastic) that's mass produced and mass fielded.
Basically the opposite of premium and luxury. As many people have said in the past, the only thing luxury is the price tag. Warmahordes is technically more luxury than GW since a lot of their figures are a better quality (i.e. metal), tend to cost more for the same amount (see: Iron Fang Pikemen @ $85 for 10) and you tend to not run duplicates. Compare that to 40k where you tend to run mostly the same type of units with slight variation (e.g. 10 Marines w/Flamer + Missile Launcher here, 10 Marines w/Meltagun + Heavy Bolter there).
Compel wrote: GW do have Eternal Crusade and Warhammer Total War coming out in a year or three.
Could they be pinning their base growing hopes on thst , maybe?
I doubt either of those will be enough to make up for anything. Remember their biggest seller (7th edition) only helped to balance things out so they didn't go into debt, it didn't increase revenue nor sales. As cool as Warhammer Total War might be, I doubt it'll be anywhere near the magnitude of a new edition of their flagship game.
For months I've been predicting that this report would be good, and see a big turn-around in sales compared to the half-year statement. But no no, continue to put words into my mouth.
tyrannosaurus wrote: Or maybe we just have a 'toxic' community who seek to inflate any negativity?
Or maybe we don't have our heads in the clouds drinking the GW cool-aid. And you're the one who entered the thread calling this discussion a "circle jerk", so maybe look carefully at the glass house you're in before you start throwing rocks.
Daedleh wrote: Business and Data Analyst for a major UK bank here.
No you're not. You're just a hater participating in circle jerk inside a toxic community! If you don't like GW, then stop playing 40K. How can you criticise a business for wanting to make money?
There. Now I've summed up the (so-called) "counter-arguments" to everything you've said, we can get back on track.
In my defence, I mentioned your name because it was one of the few that sprung to mind. It was wayshuba's name that I meant to use. I didn't have time to think it out properly because I had something on the cooker, golden eagles were attacking me, a running bath was in danger of overflowing...anybody buying this?
It could have been worse. Before I edited the post, I misspelt your name H M B C
Anyway, back on topic.
Some of the solutions to GW's woes that have been discussed, don't sound as though they would turn the ship around. Didn't they have to shut down their FB page, forums etc because they were getting to much abuse/legal problems?
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Wolfstan wrote: GW seem to be confusing themselves with Forge World. It's Forge World that makes the premium models not GW. How can you call plastic production models "premium"? If that's the case people had better hang on to their "premium" Airfix and Tamiya models
You dare disrespect Airfix?
I'm willing to bet Airfix will probably outlive GW. Any takers?
GW shut down their FB page, IIRC, because they had people insulting them over the Spots the Space Marine debacle (and rightly so). And I assume the typical prices are too high, balance your game type of complaints as well. But mostly because they were exposed for trying to bully a smalltime author writing a book for charity.
I think the core things that people are missing are:
- There is more legitimate competition now for miniature games that in previous years. Warmahordes, X-wing, Attack Wing and many other games now give people options for playing miniature games.
- The barrier to entry is extremely steep. More so when compared to the competition.
- GW has a contentiousness relationship with most of their independent retailers. This means retailers are unlikely to push GW product over other products unless they are devoted fans.
- Rules are pathetic, meaning people may drop the game or not even pick it up if it's confusing for them to play without hand holding.
The issue with GW is not that it has attempted to become a premium brand. The issue is that GW executed it horribly. Too many price hikes, too fast. Cutting communication with consumers. Turning GW stores from real hobby centres to one-man sales points. Etc, etc.
.
The biggest problem with establishing themselves as a premium brand is that the products are not good enough.
the do not make 'the best miniatures in the world' , and never have. In the '90's Confrontation eclipsed them as a range, now Corvus Belli produce models of consitantly higher quality, and I would suggest, having seen them now, that the Malifaux plastics are technically better use of the material than GWs production are capable of, even if the aesthetics of those are not nevessarily to my taste.
Perrys produce better line infantry at cheaper prices, McVey produce better quality, in sculpt and material, character models than GW do, I can buy a full limited edition resin character for £13 from McVey, or a plastic space marine for £18.
And then we come to the other part of the equation, rules. GWs rules are the worst Ive ever come across when it comes to actually playing a game. I've used homebrew concoctions from some guy at a club that offered a better and easier to follow gaming process and required less 'discussion' about what something means between players. And yet the rules are the most expensive in the entire industry.
Being a premium brand is not just putting the price up, you need a tangible lead over everything else, GW are just putting the prices up whilst there products slip further behind the leaders of the industry for quality.
I agree with everything. They just don't deliver enough for the prices they charge and it's finally starting to bite them in the ass now.
That's been the case for the past 10/15 years though. What changed in the past twelve months, when prices afaik barely rose at all?
The rules prices were jacked up. In the past 12 months, they went from putting out a single $50 codex in a wave to putting out a $50 codex, an additional $50 sub-codex, and other additional data slates and DLC they're also charging for. 12 months before that (roughly), they went from charging $33 for a codex to $50 for a codex. Also in that timeframe, they've also charged $75 for a rulebook at was made obsolete and replaced by a not-so-different $85 rulebook, and blatantly broke up the content in a way that they could have sold just the rules at to all their existing players for a lower price, but instead they flipped their customers the bird and attempted to force them to re-buy fluff content they knew damn well wouldn't sell on its own.
It's pretty obvious to most consumers what they're doing. If the content in the rules and codices was fantastic, fun, and well written, a lot of people probably still wouldn't bat an eye. The issue is that, from a gaming perspective, the content is lousy. Codices aren't balanced internally or with each other. The rules are unclear, a fact that's even more blindingly obvious if you branch out from GW and try a different game. And the game takes forever to play and yet doesn't really feel like it comes down to much more that what army list you took and what dice rolls you made; rarely does it feel like your tactical decisions have a solid impact on the game.
So, to answer your question, I contend that the attempted cash grab of hundreds of dollars from every player for lousy rules is what's escalated over the past 12-24 months and consequently what's escalated their decline in player base and sales.
The issue with GW is not that it has attempted to become a premium brand. The issue is that GW executed it horribly. Too many price hikes, too fast. Cutting communication with consumers. Turning GW stores from real hobby centres to one-man sales points. Etc, etc.
.
The biggest problem with establishing themselves as a premium brand is that the products are not good enough.
the do not make 'the best miniatures in the world' , and never have. In the '90's Confrontation eclipsed them as a range, now Corvus Belli produce models of consitantly higher quality, and I would suggest, having seen them now, that the Malifaux plastics are technically better use of the material than GWs production are capable of, even if the aesthetics of those are not nevessarily to my taste.
Perrys produce better line infantry at cheaper prices, McVey produce better quality, in sculpt and material, character models than GW do, I can buy a full limited edition resin character for £13 from McVey, or a plastic space marine for £18.
And then we come to the other part of the equation, rules. GWs rules are the worst Ive ever come across when it comes to actually playing a game. I've used homebrew concoctions from some guy at a club that offered a better and easier to follow gaming process and required less 'discussion' about what something means between players. And yet the rules are the most expensive in the entire industry.
Being a premium brand is not just putting the price up, you need a tangible lead over everything else, GW are just putting the prices up whilst there products slip further behind the leaders of the industry for quality.
I agree with everything. They just don't deliver enough for the prices they charge and it's finally starting to bite them in the ass now.
That's been the case for the past 10/15 years though. What changed in the past twelve months, when prices afaik barely rose at all?
Prices have risen quite dramatically in the last year or so, but it's less obvious because it's no longer the old June price rise where already existing units get a price bump. Now it's big kits at unprecedented price levels, like the Wraithknight and Imperial Knight, as well as other new, smaller, units with very high prices, such as SM Librarians, Flash Gitz and Mek Gunz. In addition, 6th introduced a 50% price increase on codexes with hardbacks.
Without even taking the prices of new units into account, the pricing structure makes the barrier to entry very high. If you're looking to get into 40k, you'll need the rules book (£50), a codex (£30), a battleforce (£70), and a hobby starter kit (£45), and you've reached almost £200 and you can just about scrape together a 300 point force for some introductory games to learn the ropes. This isn't super good for recruiting new customers. Especially when combined with two other factors:
1. GW shops are located 'off the beaten track.' That's a quote from the report, btw. How are new potential customers supposed to find out about GW products? It's not like they advertise.
2. Competitors are starting to get organized. Warmachine is growing, and has reached the point where they have a presence in most independent retailers across the globe. So, if you're introduced to GW at your local comic book shop, you'll also be introduced to Warmachine, and will be able to compare value between the two. You'll be able to see the Warmachine guys pushing a couple hundred bucks around the table, and the 40k guys pushing closer to a thousand. The latter is pretty daunting for someone who's just seen some cool models that might make for a good hobby.
Up until about five years ago or so, GW was very dominant in most of the places where you would get introduced to the hobby. Other games were usually fringe. Now, it's often an even choice, or sometimes GW might even be the weird fringe game where oddballs with more money than sense sometimes occupy a corner in the gaming area.
In addition to all this, GW's pricing strategy is also problematic with their own customers. Not only because people moan about it being too expensive, but mostly because they have very few products available in shops that are good for impulse buys. Back in the day, I'd rarely leave my local shop without a new blister pack. What now? I'm obviously not picking up a Stompa on a whim every couple of weeks, and not glue either, despite how quick those blasted things dry up. So, my impulse purchases have pretty much dried up. And they haven't been replaced by more spending on planned purchases either.
Now, obviously, this is just anecdotal to me, and and isn't proof of GW's inevitable downfall. But it shows that their business and pricing strategies are not driving up sales. After all, there is a reason why other businesses have sales, have potential impulse buys taking up shelf space, try to retain old customers and recruit new, and why they base their prices on their direct competition.
KommissarKarl wrote:I agree with everything. They just don't deliver enough for the prices they charge and it's finally starting to bite them in the ass now.
That's been the case for the past 10/15 years though. What changed in the past twelve months, when prices afaik barely rose at all?
GW have stopped doing yearly price rises and moved to simply raising the prices of new models as they come out, just loom at the ork release and compare it to say, tau or dark angels from last year.
Yonan wrote:Even if the price stays the same, the value can decreases if the quality of the product goes down. Poor(er) rules, less balance (Taudar was fun!) and the DLC flood all decrease the value of every product in the game for many people. Decreased value works similarly to a price increase in peoples purchasing decisions so yeah... less sales is the result.
I think an even bigger factor in the vale of GW products decreasing is the emergence of so many other games and companies. $50 for a rulebook is fine and dandy if you entered the hobby 5 years ago when they where $40, but when you then see another game only charging $20 or offering the rules for free then all of a sudden the value of the first book utterly disappears.
Yonan wrote: Even if the price stays the same, the value can decreases if the quality of the product goes down. Poor(er) rules, less balance (Taudar was fun!) and the DLC flood all decrease the value of every product in the game for many people. Decreased value works similarly to a price increase in peoples purchasing decisions so yeah... less sales is the result.
Even more so, that DLC creates "hidden" price increases. Prior to dataslates - if you wanted all your armies options, you bought the Codex and maybe downloaded a few PDF rules from the website. Since they started the DLC, you buy the Codex (which prices have climbed a good bit on) and have to get 3 or 4 dataslates as well. Many of those represent things which were a core option in prior codices.
Thud wrote: Back in the day, I'd rarely leave my local shop without a new blister pack. What now? I'm obviously not picking up a Stompa on a whim every couple of weeks, and not glue either, despite how quick those blasted things dry up. So, my impulse purchases have pretty much dried up. And they haven't been replaced by more spending on planned purchases either.
Now, obviously, this is just anecdotal to me, and and isn't proof of GW's inevitable downfall. But it shows that their business and pricing strategies are not driving up sales. After all, there is a reason why other businesses have sales, have potential impulse buys taking up shelf space, try to retain old customers and recruit new, and why they base their prices on their direct competition.
That's another thing too they really need to work on. I feel weird walking out of my FLGS without buying something even if I'm just dropping in there on the way home from work. Cool dice, X wing blisters and TCG boosters are all great for that, a $32 (AUD) finecast blister is just laughable.
Crimson wrote: Increased release pace is certainly a good thing,
Or not so much.
I think GW has really hit the wall with their customer base. 15 years ago, a lot of players would buy all the Codices and pretty much one of everything for their chosen armies. Today, a player might buy the rules a couple of the supplements for their army and only the options that make sense. They are still spending the same amount - just that they are getting much less out of it. As opposed to selling 50,000 copies of Codex Daemons or whatever - they are selling 10,000 copies to the players who play that army.
This leads to many of the die hard supporters dropping out. Many serious tournament players drop out, because they can't afford to keep up with all the rules for the other armies (Know thy Enemy). Many collectors can't afford all the options for their army and they get disillusioned or just realize that they don't actually need one of everything so they drop back to only getting what they will game with.
Both end up leading to drops in sales overall, without even necessarily loosing customers. Even worse though is that when that collector or competitive gamer stops buying one of everything from GW, it frees up hobby money. Sure, they could invest it in an IRA or other sensible choice - but more often then not, they still spend it on gaming...just instead of buying only from GW, they might be two kits from GW and spend the rest on FFG, PP, Infinity or some other game system.
heartserenade wrote: When you have complaints from your customers, you don't run away from them. You answer them.
No you don't. You run screaming away from your fans in the opposite direction and secretly hope that Facebook goes away tomorrow like that Internet fad and that Pokemon thing no one remembers these days.
Even more so, that DLC creates "hidden" price increases. Prior to dataslates - if you wanted all your armies options, you bought the Codex and maybe downloaded a few PDF rules from the website. Since they started the DLC, you buy the Codex (which prices have climbed a good bit on) and have to get 3 or 4 dataslates as well. Many of those represent things which were a core option in prior codices.
Apart from that's not true. The "Day one DLC" has been completely overblown. There has only been 12 dataslates (And only one in the last 4 months), non for the last two codex's, and only two of which are new units, Cypher and Be'lakor. The rest are formations, which have never been in codex's, or even existed outside apoc games, and many people are refusing to even use them. The only thing recently has been the Ork Looted wagon, which the designers said in WD that, basically, they cut from the codex then realized to late it was a mistake as it would upset allot of people, which is something that has been done for many years as part of chapter approved.
That's another thing too they really need to work on. I feel weird walking out of my FLGS without buying something even if I'm just dropping in there on the way home from work. Cool dice, X wing blisters and TCG boosters are all great for that, a $32 (AUD) finecast blister is just laughable.
The impulse buy is a really big thing. I'm going to a convention on Saturday with no fixed plans to buy anything other than MDF bases and a couple of minis, but I'm sure with impulse purchases I'll come out £200 lighter and with a bag of stuff to put into the bare metal box.
More specifically; the last few times I've been in a GW store I've had a flick through the IG Infantrymans handbook, and been tempted to buy it until I remember it costs £17.99, so keep putting it back. If it was £7.99 I'd have bought it ages ago, even though that's still expensive for what is a mini-book. In Impulse buying Warlords Dick Winters mini from their webstore, I had a look at what else I could buy to get the free shipping, and on impulse ended off getting a couple of paints (£2.20 each), some metal bicycle infantry (£6 for 3) and a resin ammo trailer for £12. Now GW has paints and I quite like them, but I've got most of the paints I need for now, and there's really very little in my impulse purchasing bracket (under about £10-15). Long gone are the days of just buying a box of Ork Warriors because they were cool. The only other thing I spotted was the goblin fanatics plastic box for £9.50, but I've passed for now as they won't fit in with my Malifaux gremlins and I don't need any more goblins to paint; at £6 I'd have bought them without even thinking.
Yonan wrote: Even if the price stays the same, the value can decreases if the quality of the product goes down. Poor(er) rules, less balance (Taudar was fun!) and the DLC flood all decrease the value of every product in the game for many people. Decreased value works similarly to a price increase in peoples purchasing decisions so yeah... less sales is the result.
Even more so, that DLC creates "hidden" price increases. Prior to dataslates - if you wanted all your armies options, you bought the Codex and maybe downloaded a few PDF rules from the website. Since they started the DLC, you buy the Codex (which prices have climbed a good bit on) and have to get 3 or 4 dataslates as well. Many of those represent things which were a core option in prior codices.
Yep exactly. Not only is it more expensive, it's fething annoying. Codex + supplmenent(s) + dataslates + White dwarf only rules when it was all released at the same time and could easily have been in one book. Feth that.
Even more so, that DLC creates "hidden" price increases. Prior to dataslates - if you wanted all your armies options, you bought the Codex and maybe downloaded a few PDF rules from the website. Since they started the DLC, you buy the Codex (which prices have climbed a good bit on) and have to get 3 or 4 dataslates as well. Many of those represent things which were a core option in prior codices.
Apart from that's not true. The "Day one DLC" has been completely overblown. There has only been 12 dataslates (And only one in the last 4 months), non for the last two codex's, and only two of which are new units, Cypher and Be'lakor. The rest are formations, which have never been in codex's, or even existed outside apoc games, and many people are refusing to even use them. The only thing recently has been the Ork Looted wagon, which the designers said in WD that, basically, they cut from the codex then realized to late it was a mistake as it would upset allot of people, which is something that has been done for many years as part of chapter approved.
Bollocks. If it was a mistake and they wanted their players to have it they could have released it free online rather than sold piecemeal - coincidentally something that exactly lines up with their business strategy, whereas "giving the players what they want" does not. They've literally said "we don't ask what they want, they buy what we make."
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: In my defence, I mentioned your name because it was one of the few that sprung to mind. It was wayshuba's name that I meant to use. I didn't have time to think it out properly because I had something on the cooker, golden eagles were attacking me, a running bath was in danger of overflowing...anybody buying this?
Fair enough. I considered myself in the "et al" part of that. However, if you look, you will see both here and on WarSeer, where I also commonly post, I have not ever discussed the demise of GW before this year after the last period financials came out. As someone who has looked for troubled companies for the greater portion of my career, the half year financials stood out as a company in a lot of trouble. It has nothing to do with my feelings about the game or their contempt for their customers. It was strictly looking at it from a business perspective.
As far a predicting the demise of GW from strictly that same business standpoint, as I have contended all along, GW is in very serious trouble. Anyone who wants to deny that is simply sticking their head in the sand as to the realities.
With that said, I will end with an appropriate quote:
"Facts do not cease to exist because the are ignored" - Aldous Huxley, author of Brave New World
Baragash wrote: ... but any forum posts by Mr Mystery are bound to be.....irrelevant.
That kinda goes without saying, but I am interested to know how he might try and defend this. I mean, how does one spin a report like this and make it sound good (outside of Kirky double-speak and playing the victim).
You don't have to spin it, you just have to chose to believe it...
Baragash wrote: ... but any forum posts by Mr Mystery are bound to be.....irrelevant.
That kinda goes without saying, but I am interested to know how he might try and defend this. I mean, how does one spin a report like this and make it sound good (outside of Kirky double-speak and playing the victim).
TBH after he diverted the conversation into something about add-on sales and TVs with the "customer is not always right" I lost interest. Anyone who doesn't understand the difference between a customer (or a small number of customers) as an individual (who could well be talking complete gak) and the aggregate customer (that is, the total demand/potential demand for your products - and who is always right) probably isn't going to justify the time you give up to read it.
EDIT: someone actually explained it on p9 of that topic.
Kirby obviously doesn't even know his own business as stating that GW is a model company, not a rules company is stupid. You need a reason to buy figures, or buy figures at the amount that GW needs to keep running. Just because they look good is enough.
Rules give people a reason to buy more models, to change armies to have multiple armies. If GW is truly just a "model" company then they should either stop producing rules and just make nice models that can be used with any generic system or produce a solid set of rules that can last 5 - 10 years as they are. The mechanics stay the same, but you introduce new stuff via the codexes.
One thing I've been wondering is why GW let itself become the WH40K 28mm miniatures company.
I get that the LoTR expansion was a flash in the pan, yet it gave GW a massive secondary revenue source. Even if the LoTR revenue was not sustainable (which I doubt), wouldn't that experience indicate that GW could make a regular business of selling movie and video game tie-in miniature games? Ideally self contained and limited runs around the Movie / its Sequels. One can note that the original LoTR miniatures, in their not-heroic poses, didn't fit into the Warhammer game. GW could distinguish between the two games, even though their both fantasy.
If the market for WH40K is saturated, which is a possibility, then it would make sense to open secondary markets.
For example, the fan base for Star Citizen would buy Star Citizen branded toilet paper. Why couldn't GW go to Start Citizen and offer to make a 'Carrier Battles in Space (tm)' miniatures game in the Star Citizen universe? That game will fit nicely between BFG and X-Wing, more detailed than BFG but larger scale than X-Wing. It would tie into a successfully funded game and could be sold in self-contained boxes at a wide range of retailers.
Or look at movies, GW should have been bidding for the Alien vs Predator or Starship Troopers IP and selling those as 30mm Skirmish or 15mm Big Battle games. (Vary the scale to avoid conflict with WH40K) GW could point to its large scale and global distribution network as a competitive advantage over smaller and newer companies.
Granted, all of the above requires that GW release good rules and competitively priced miniatures, a distinctly unlikely possibility.
Other question, cross posted from the "GW Going Under" thread: why doesn't GW try to make its core unit boxes the most common in the miniature gaming universe? Release the IG and a wide range of flavor add-ons so that someone could tune his IG to fit any other gaming system. GW has the scale to out design, out produce, and under sell everybody else in the market. Why can't they do that?
I personally think that Wh40K is not oversaturated, as one could only determine that after seeing a broad marketing campaign with a well designed game. In its current state, WH40K is likely alienating a large number of active miniature gaming customers and ignoring an even larger number of non-miniature gaming customers.
However, GW has steadfastly refused to deal with alienating customers or marketing the game more widely with lower entry costs.
With respect to other IPs, I'm starting to think its too late. GW choose to focus down on a single game inside a single IP, so to reverse that course would require an equal, or greater, level of management overhaul as making WH40K competitive with newer games. A new WH40K army will be too expensive and too late, expensive because of the wide range of units required, too late because GW is not demonstrating the development and design qualities to sell a new race. The new race would work only if GW changed enough practices and in that case the changing practices would be more important than the new race.
It isn't a surprise that the two new 'armies', Knights and new-Stormtroopers, have highly limited ranges. (Less than 5 new units between the two?) GW may not be able to spend the money to develop a whole new race in the first place.
I don't see Blood Bowl or Space Hulk as a replacement to WH40K miniature's game. Rather, I see them as part of an essential broad range of miniature games. They wouldn't replace WH40K, they would diversify GW's sales away from purely 28mm mass skirmish games. GW should have those games, even if they won't in aggregate make as much as Wh40K.
As for IPs, Warhammer has been around forever, GW would need radically different IPs which would let them reach a hitherto untouched audience.
A few quick notes after reading the entire thread:
1 - The core problems with GW are ultimately now time and management.
Time, in that the best time to begin fixing most of the issues they had was with the 7th edition release of 40k, and instead of fixing them, they doubled down on what was wrong. This has shortened their runway to survive (I think moderately, others think more dramatically).
Management, in that the beliefs of their management are both strongly held and strongly incorrect. Without replacing the management (Kirby included), GW cannot be cured. At best, an untimely demise can be delayed.
2 - All of GW's problems are fixable.
I've written about this at length on a certain other forum which I will reference later, but the sad/tragic/comic/all-too-common punchline to the GW story is that they appear to be a football (in the European sense) club dead set on scoring own goals. There will be nobody to blame at the end other than themselves, though they will inevitably go down blaming everyone else, as the ignorant always do.
3 - 40k is not over-saturated, the products are limited in scope (due to lack of vision, not lack of possibility) and overpriced.
If they fixed the core issues with rules / game size / pricing, they would grow (like everyone else in this space). We are in a geek renaissance. Comics have all but gone mainstream. Video gaming is ubiquitous. GW should be able to grow.
4 - On the topic of other forums, and the community view of GW, I think the real issue is just lack of understanding.
Obviously, that's easy for me to say - I'm a finance professional (I work on Wall Street, I run a trading desk, I have an MBA, etc.), but the level of discourse around GW's financials is, on average, low on information.
I find that most of the supporters of GW, from an economic standpoint (which is very different than just liking 40k), don't understand how a business works and have no experience with it. You get statements of a quality equivalent to "they are profitable, how could things be wrong?" without realizing that many firms have flipped from profit to dead quickly. You get things like not understanding how to compute falling unit sales, so people think higher revenue = more customers (that's not true if revenue went up 5% and prices were up 25%).
I've sparred with people on Warseer in particular and have very sharp elbows at times, and I will say I feel I've always been treated fairly by the mods there (and, in reality, some of the most virulent trolls have probably been banned as a direct result of their attempts to flame me, though the mods there are too decent to admit that). So if the tone of the discourse about the company is off base in places, it's probably due to lack of information and individuals who are clueless more than anything else.
BoLS in particular has a very low bar of competence, B&C is so narrowly hobby focused they don't really want threads about the economics there (and thus I don't have a view on the average knowledge of posters, as I suspect a lot of the more informed parties just don't post there on this topic at all), but Warseer has been fine. Master Minis has had a very good series on the economics of GW as well. So it's out there, but you have to dig to find informed parties. Or read all the annual reports yourself. I have them going back to 1997 if anyone really enjoys being super bored.
MWHistorian wrote: That raises a good question, is 40k now over saturated? Can they milk this cow any longer?
If not, do you think they'll find another cow?
They could try to resurrect fantasy, but it would need a lot of work, more work than they seem willing or able to do lately.
They could resurrect their smaller games like Blood Bowl and Space Hulk, but those have games that have come in and taken their spot already.
All I can see is either a new faction for 40k. (And they have more than they can handle already) or an entirely new game.
I think it's important to remember that we have just climbed out of [or are still climbing out of] the worst global recession since the Great Depression. It makes sense that GW restrict their business to their core products during this time and avoided risky new releases. Risk aversion, coupled with Dreadfleet, probably put paid to any new box sets and risky new directions during this time. I also think tying themselves in to the LOTR/Hobbit franchise for so long was a mistake, but then again I never understood the appeal. I like 40k because I can paint and model them any way I want.. Gandalf will only ever look like Gandalf, and we all know how LOTR ended.
Having said that I think now is a great time for new box sets to be released, both re-boxing of older games and entry level new ones. I would be all over a re-release of Epic or Bloodbowl, and a high level of sales is virtually guaranteed from nostalgic 30 somethings like me. I am also baffled by the lack of simple entry level games like HeroQuest/Space Crusade. Those helped get me into the game, and also opened up the Warhammer world to a more mainstream audience. They can also be placed in mainstream shops such as WH Smiths and bookshops. They do have computer games in development I believe, but these take time to get to the point of release.
What I found surprising after reading the report is the volume of sales that come from their shops [around 40% iirc, by far the largest source of sales]. The GW shops near me are virtual ghost towns - the manager of the nearest one is away on holiday for a week so the shop has closed for a week. Rather than get rid of shops, I think they should focus instead on making them inviting places to visit, with lots of different sample games going on, in-store discounts, campaigns, gaming nights etc. At the moment there is absolutely no reason for me to go into a GW shop despite one being a 5 minute walk away.
The problem is that something like Blood Bowl or Space Hulk appeal to a different clientele that like smallish, almost boardgame type of games (see also Warhammer Quest). Which is fine, except to GW who think it detracts from the real product.
A true miniatures company would be like most historical companies - produce figures, probably not rules or if they do then something fairly generic to let your players fine tune it, for free or very cheap, like a slim paperback or something. They would also create miniatures in different scales for collectors or whatnot. GW had this too (Inquisitor) and again got rid of it because it was detracting from 40k.
Imagine if GW had 54mm plastic Space Marines, say five to a box, and put out some skirmish type of rules for let's say the Heresy era (because more Space Marines) for a few bucks to buy softcover or free PDF download. Collectors might pick up some because hey 54mm Space Marines can have a lot of detail. Gamers might buy a couple of boxes for some cool narrative skirmishes.
GW seems to think that those skirmish games are silly and lame because people could buy less of them to play (the horror!), and even if they were 28mm you'd have people who would choose to play the skirmish game instead of 40k (egads!). Large scale games like Epic are worse because they'd have to be cheaper (gasp!) and people would play that for large battles, not buy hundreds of 40k figures at high prices (zwounds!).
EDIT: Glad to see Reinholt here explaining things as he always does
Here are a few ideas that have been rolling around in my head that maybe could help GW. If they can survive the storm. (in full disclaimer I dropped out of GW gaming 3 years ago and have not bought anything GW since).
1. Bring out the specialist games, bring em all (minus Dreadfleet) roaring back. Make it a huge worldwide event. Lots of coverage, make it something special for the independant stores out there. (and use it to buy good will with the independent stores, like a big ole apology).
2. Use the capital that is raised from the specialist games to go into development mode and work on a new core game. Hire TECHNICAL WRITERS to create the rules books along side your studio so that you have a comprehensive rules book at does not chase it's own tail. Also have a selectively open Beta. The way PP did this when they went from MKI to MKII (and they way Weird Games did too) should be used as the text book on how to get great rules and customer buy in all at the same time.
2a. I say a new core game for a few reasons. I just can't see a scenario where people don't flip out over revamping 40k again so soon after a new core rules release, even if they are complete gak (and I have not read or played them so I don't know if the rules suck or not). Also people are so invested (money and emotionally) That asking them at this time to change it all up seems foolish and a waste of dwindling resources.
.
3. Hire a social media director that knows what the heck they are doing. Recruit someone out of DC or London (or pick a capital) that deals with political scandal. Someone that has a lot of experience in smoothing ruffled feathers. Give them the budget they need and let them do their thing.
4. It's time to get roving bands of game promoters out in the trenches. Dust off the Outrider (or what ever you want to call them now) program and get people into FLGS and demo games, run tournaments and generally be out there showing the flag.
5. Slowly (like over several years slowly) start shutting down the retail stores. They are an albatross around GW's neck, and the capital it takes to run it is reckless. All that money could be used to develop new games. Let the FLGS out there be your brick and mortar stores. They can pay for the electricity and the lease. GW needs to make the games, pump out the plastic crack, and work on the next big thing.
GW needs to diversify their offerings rather than tripling down on 40K.
Imagine if, instead of doing The Hobbit, they had done Game of Thrones? However, I do not expect GW to license other properties anytime soon, as they want total control and ownership.
tyrannosaurus wrote: What I found surprising after reading the report is the volume of sales that come from their shops [around 40% iirc, by far the largest source of sales]. The GW shops near me are virtual ghost towns - the manager of the nearest one is away on holiday for a week so the shop has closed for a week. Rather than get rid of shops, I think they should focus instead on making them inviting places to visit, with lots of different sample games going on, in-store discounts, campaigns, gaming nights etc. At the moment there is absolutely no reason for me to go into a GW shop despite one being 5 minutes away.
This is interesting to me as well. There used to be a large GW store in Charlotte, NC many years ago; I had just moved up to the state and was lucky enough to discover it.
The store definitely had a massively different vibe than the ones I visit now. The terrain was scratchbuilt with a lot of interesting details put into it, the staff was friendly and not overly pushy...heck, I remember them giving my brother and I some of the swamp tiles they had made that had been slightly damaged and were going to end up being scrapped.
The place had a bit of a crowd typically; people playing 40k or fantasy or LOTR. And the customer range was interesting. I actually remember one of the Carolina Panthers players coming in- he had a Warriors of Chaos army from back in the day. The guys in the store joked that they had gotten someone to put "Death to the False Emperor" on one of the scroll-by's at the Panthers stadium one time during a game or practice (can't remember which).
It was just an exciting place and felt like a community rather than an Apple boutique store where you're made to feel special for the privilege of buying the product...
MWHistorian wrote: That raises a good question, is 40k now over saturated? Can they milk this cow any longer?
40k is absolutely saturated. I believe GW has already hit the wall on this one. And I mean saturated in two different ways at once:
First, I believe they've basically saturated the market for 40k miniatures (at their current price point). This is the more obvious sense. They aren't bringing in enough new players, and they're actually driving away old players. The apparent decline in volume (based on their declining revenue) supports this.
Second, and more subtly, I think they've "saturated" 40k as a game system, and I think they really reached that point sometime in 5th edition to be honest. With specialist games cut, and LOTR and Fantasy failing, they clearly focused on 40k as their cash cow. This was the start of the focus on ramming new content into codexes that didn't need it, in order to sell new models to players who already had complete armies. Not every codex was like this, obviously (Necrons and Dark Eldar were fertile ground for new ideas, Blood Angels and Space Wolves were not - thus the former got much needed makeovers while the latter got poorly conceived Blood- and Wolf- Everything). This was just the start, saturation on an army level. But it didn't stop there, it couldn't stop there. So as 6th edition rolled around, rather than working on perfecting the ruleset, more bloat was added, Flyers and Fortifications in particular. Two things the game could certainly do without, but the company must keep growing, so therefore their only remaining successful game must keep growing.
This trend has continued into 7th. Codex releases invariably include ugly or stupid or otherwise poorly thought out units that the army did not need, and 7th edition was rushed out the door to fix zero issues with 6th, while adding Lords of War and making sure you have no restrictions on what nonsense you can put in an army.
GW has been putting all their eggs in the 40k basket for a long time now. Since they need to keep producing new products, that basket has become increasingly crowded and unwieldy. Rather than take the philosophy that they are a game company, and they should seek to produce high quality games (plural!) with complete ranges of miniatures, GW decided to be a "Warhammer 40k Toy Company". Where everything is secondary to the goal of, each month, making *something, anything* new out of plastic and selling it, with little concern over how this affects their game ecosystem, or even whether their costumers will want it.
Ultimately I believe the strategic decision to cut the specialist games and double-down on 40k and Fantasy was a potentially fatal one. Not only did they cede all those various niche game markets to competitors (seriously, look at how many new and popular competing games there are, and for almost every one I believe you'll find an analagous Specialist game that's older and with the right support could have smothered said competitor in its cradle). They also left themselves with little room to grow in terms of new products without adding bloat to their main games, nowhere within their ecosystem for their customers to turn when they temporarily "burn out" on said main games, and no cheap introductory games to snag new players. This has all led directly to the saturation of 40k both in terms of market share (again, at this price point), and in terms of the amount of new releases one could possibly add.
Edited to add: In my view, Games Workshop should have been focused all along on "perfecting" 40k and Fantasy. By the 7th or 8th edition of a game, you should be zeroed in on a tight, balanced, well-written ruleset that really needs no future changes. Similarly for each army's codex - there comes a point when you have fleshed out the relevant ideas for an army, achieved good internal and external balance, and gotten all the models up to a good standard in plastic. This is the point where you should stop. Don't add new things to this army unless you actually have a good idea, and the army actually needs it. If you have factions within your game universe that are not covered, now would be a good time to make a new army for one of those factions. Done with that? Now you have your "ultimate" edition of the rules and very solid codexes for your armies. Only update things from here on out as needed (replacing dated models, publishing new editions to include fixes and errata, etc).
"But how will we make money if we can't sell a new edition of the rules with random untested changes, and new codexes with dinosaur robots no one wanted?" The answer is you don't do that. You publish expansions, campaign material, supplemental codices, etc to keep people energized, you organize tournaments and local or global campaigns, and most importantly, you *make new games*. They might never be as profitable as your main lines, but they keep players within your ecosystem, keep them from burning out, and stifle competition. Just as importantly, they give you room to expand that doesn't involve mutating your golden goose until it turns into a chaos spawn.
tyrannosaurus wrote: I think it's important to remember that we have just climbed out of [or are still climbing out of] the worst global recession since the Great Depression. It makes sense that GW restrict their business to their core products during this time and avoided risky new releases. Risk aversion, coupled with Dreadfleet, probably put paid to any new box sets and risky new directions during this time. I also think tying themselves in to the LOTR/Hobbit franchise for so long was a mistake, but then again I never understood the appeal. I like 40k because I can paint and model them any way I want.. Gandalf will only ever look like Gandalf, and we all know how LOTR ended.
No.
The global demand spike never really impacted GW in a severe way; the rest of the gaming space (tabletop and board games) has been growing significantly over the past five years. The recession is a primary limiter for housing, certain forms of economic growth related to finance and capital expenditure heavy businesses, and in idiosyncratic parts of the world. It is not a generic excuse for a company like GW (and, if it's such a big problem, why are their competitors growing rapidly?).
If anything, GW has benefitted dramatically from this, as the massive currency re-valuations were a huge boon to the GW bottom line in 2009, and this effect has continued going forward.
GW's issues have nothing to do with the global economy, or they would be felt across the space. Everyone else is growing; GW is not. The issue is not a widespread economic one.
Now don't say that. Facts do nothing but stain our bright white armour. Let's talk about the GFC some more, 'cause that only happened 6 years ago and is totally the reason why GW's 13/14 report is bad (except it's not bad - everything is fine!).
GW is basically screwed no matter what they do, I think. They can't just slash prices across the board, but they can't just keep raising them either.
While longterm the best strategy would be to do a complete rewrite of 40k's rules, going back to its roots as a platoon-level game with additional rules to scale down to skirmish a la Infinity (more detail?) or up to large battles (more streamlined), they'd likely face a huge amount of backlash for it; I was too young to care but does anyone from the 2nd -> 3rd transition remember if it happened then?
Same as above goes for WHFB, but might actually be a reality as there was a rumor of them going to a LOTR style game for WHFB when the license is up; while again that would be a good option it has the potential to destroy them completely as it would piss off entire swathes of customers if everything they had was suddenly invalidated with a new edition, although given the decline of WHFB it'd be better to testbed it here than with 40k.
Specialist Games seems like the most risk-free option, but they'd have to get it through their heads that any profit is good profit, it's not garbage if it's not your big game. If someone would rather buy 20 figures for Necromunda or Inquisitor or Mordheim rather than 200 for 40k, then so be it. They're likely to buy different factions anyways. Also, given their past record though how many people would believe that SGs would stick around?
That's why I think they're screwed. Every option they could do has an equal chance of killing them as saving them. It's like a tumor that will guaranteed kill you in 5 years, or you can get an operation done in 1 year that has a 50% chance of killing you.
Also agree 100% with CalgarsPimpHand. 40k and WHFB should have been streamlined and balanced by now, and the supplements should have been things like FW has done - Vraks, Damocles, etc. Hell what they should have done is make Citadel the bulk, cheap plastic option to bulk out armies with generic guys, and FW be for special characters, and the big kits that are the every so often for a cool battle type of deal.
The reason GW has pigeonholed itself into a one-trick pony of only really going after 40k is a combination of risk-aversion and lack of market research:
1. They know 40k sells.
2. They know Dreadfleet didn't sell.
3. They have no idea why #1 and #2 happen.
Ironically, most companies diversify their offering to avoid risk; i.e. if the bottom fell out of 40k tomorrow, ideally they would still have revenue from WHFB, LoTR, and side games to fall back on.
However, since they don't do market research and don't care to find out what people want to buy, they effectively back themselves into a corner of either taking a HUGE risk on a product like Dreadfleet because they don't know what the reception will be, or taking essentially no risk in just cranking out another 40k boxed set.
Given those parameters, guess what decision every corporation is going to make every time?
slowthar wrote: The reason GW has pigeonholed itself into a one-trick pony of only really going after 40k is a combination of risk-aversion and lack of market research:
1. They know 40k sells.
2. They know Dreadfleet didn't sell.
3. They have no idea why #1 and #2 happen.
I think they have plenty of flexibility on 40k-related games.
After all, you could introduce a 40k skirmish game that uses the bones of the current rules, but modernizes it (IGOUGO for starters), without invalidating 40k. Just make it a scale slightly larger than kill team (call it a 500pt ish game). Put the rules out for free, put the army books out for free (or maybe put unit cards out for free and put them in boxes); you have now added a product that will drive sales and new purchases of models, and dramatically lowered your cost of entry. It's a trivial step.
If that achieves wide acceptance, you port the rules to the next 40k, and they will be well received.
Similarly, 40k's setting still has more room to explore all kinds of things. You can alter without invalidating previous works until you are sure it works. Iteration, measured advancement, and fast following (steal the best ideas of other games) are all legitimate tactics running a business of this sort.
There is no reason GW can't make things work; they just won't.
Reinholt wrote: There is no reason GW can't make things work; they just won't.[/color]
Pretty sure there's been a substantial brain drain hasn't there? All the skilled people have been replaced by those that can say "yes!" emphatically enough. They may very well be completely unable to release a good system now.
Reinholt wrote: There is no reason GW can't make things work; they just won't.[/color]
Pretty sure there's been a substantial brain drain hasn't there? All the skilled people have been replaced by those that can say "yes!" emphatically enough. They may very well be completely unable to release a good system now.
I have the sinking feeling that's the case; the people there can't write good rules (maybe Kelly since he was around in the old days, maybe he picked something up from Rick and Alessio) or just think that things need to be more convoluted because they're from the old school (Jervis).
I'd try to do everything in my power to get Alessio back writing rules, whether it was as a contractor/consultant or an FTE.
Designing a strategy game is not rocket science; you can find designers. Hell, you could broadly copy the ideas of other good games and just playtest them. If GW lacks the internal talent to do this, the solution is fire the terrible employees and hire better ones.
Again, it's not that they cannot do things, it's that they refuse to do them. A healthy management team could turn GW around quickly by displaying merely an average level of competence.
Reinholt wrote: There is no reason GW can't make things work; they just won't.[/color]
Pretty sure there's been a substantial brain drain hasn't there? All the skilled people have been replaced by those that can say "yes!" emphatically enough. They may very well be completely unable to release a good system now.
This is similar to why I think those saying Kirby stepping down will be a change for the better are being way too optimistic. The idea of hiring a board member on the basis of "attitude, not experience" is telling - I fear the whole culture within the boardroom is too Kirbyesque to be able to change in time.
Reinholt wrote: Designing a strategy game is not rocket science; you can find designers. Hell, you could broadly copy the ideas of other good games and just playtest them. If GW lacks the internal talent to do this, the solution is fire the terrible employees and hire better ones.
Again, it's not that they cannot do things, it's that they refuse to do them. A healthy management team could turn GW around quickly by displaying merely an average level of competence.
The issue as I see it is not can they change the course of the ship with new talent. It's can they afford the ride? Their cash reserves vs operating expense, to me looks like they can't afford to keep losing sales while spending money to revamp.
Hence my suggestion of releasing specialist games (and not at overinflated stupid GW pricing) and using that revenue stream to allow them to stay afloat while making the course correction.
It must be possible to create a new game in a spin-off setting like Necromunda did. Maybe a single-based movement fantasy game based 2000 years on from the Fantasy world of Sigmar, give them some better technology, merge the races a bit and introduce some new ones. Less focus on magic and more on science, and tap into the steampunk thing.
That'd get them something that fits in with their existing IP but can't really be used across games, and can still use heroic 28mm minis.
WayneTheGame wrote: Specialist Games seems like the most risk-free option, but they'd have to get it through their heads that any profit is good profit, it's not garbage if it's not your big game.
Basically this.
If I was in charge, I would split 40k into two and a half games (I won't pretend to know how Fantasy should be handled). Game 1 would be "40k proper", rewinding 40k as we know it back to a 3rd edition level of complexity, with a focus on large-ish, streamlined, balanced battles. Move the flyers and superheavies back to Game 1.5, an Apocalypse type expansion, where I believe they worked just fine (and hell's sake, fix the flyer rules so futuristic jets aren't dog-fighting over a postage stamp size patch of earth). And Game 2 should be a true skirmish game for 20 or so models and a vehicle or two, or less. Let this absorb some of the little details that need to be cut to reduce the rules bloat in 40k proper.
As a bonus, now you have an updated skirmish game engine. Use this as the core for a new Necromunda, new Gorkamorka, new Inquisitor RPG-ish skirmish game, etc, the same way the 2nd edition rules were the core engine for NM and GM in the past.
Bring back a fleet game and a 6mm or 10mm game. Work on campaign expansions that help players bridge between the various systems. Encourage them to build complete collections in all your specialist games so they can run a sector-wide fleet campaign (BFG) that results in a planetary invasion (6mm) that has an important battle (40k proper) that culminates in an Inquisitor and his Deathwatch retinue battling a Genestealer cult to kill the Magus beneath a hive city (40k skirmish). The Specialist games always held this promise. GW should have explicitly provided material and support for these games to make it easy enough for any gaming group.
For the record, I don't think it's too late to start making these changes. But I do think the company is too risk-averse. And when I say 40k is saturated, I obviously mean "40k the game" and not 40k the setting. They could explore a million different directions in different games. Instead they will mutate 40k even harder, until it turns into a pile of disorganized limbs.
WayneTheGame wrote: Specialist Games seems like the most risk-free option, but they'd have to get it through their heads that any profit is good profit, it's not garbage if it's not your big game.
Basically this.
If I was in charge, I would split 40k into two and a half games (I won't pretend to know how Fantasy should be handled). Game 1 would be "40k proper", rewinding 40k as we know it back to a 3rd edition level of complexity, with a focus on large-ish, streamlined, balanced battles. Move the flyers and superheavies back to Game 1.5, an Apocalypse type expansion, where I believe they worked just fine (and hell's sake, fix the flyer rules so futuristic jets aren't dog-fighting over a postage stamp size patch of earth). And Game 2 should be a true skirmish game for 20 or so models and a vehicle or two, or less. Let this absorb some of the little details that need to be cut to reduce the rules bloat in 40k proper.
As a bonus, now you have an updated skirmish game engine. Use this as the core for a new Necromunda, new Gorkamorka, new Inquisitor RPG-ish skirmish game, etc, the same way the 2nd edition rules were the core engine for NM and GM in the past.
Bring back a fleet game and a 6mm or 10mm game. Work on campaign expansions that help players bridge between the various systems. Encourage them to build complete collections in all your specialist games so they can run a sector-wide fleet campaign (BFG) that results in a planetary invasion (6mm) that has an important battle (40k proper) that culminates in an Inquisitor and his Deathwatch retinue battling a Genestealer cult to kill the Magus beneath a hive city (40k skirmish). The Specialist games always held this promise. GW should have explicitly provided material and support for these games to make it easy enough for any gaming group.
For the record, I don't think it's too late to start making these changes. But I do think the company is too risk-averse. Instead they will mutate 40k even harder, until it turns into a pile of disorganized limbs.
So basically the way it was handled in 4th edition with Apocalypse?
Which was far more well implemented in 4th edition than it currently is.
Fliers and giant walkers break the game and make it an unnecessary game race. Where everyone needs to get the best vechiles. As it completely invalidates all the troops. As troops currently are instana killed by vechiles and fliers. How many people have fliers in their lists? Almost all of them?
Herzlos wrote: It must be possible to create a new game in a spin-off setting like Necromunda did. Maybe a single-based movement fantasy game based 2000 years on from the Fantasy world of Sigmar, give them some better technology, merge the races a bit and introduce some new ones. Less focus on magic and more on science, and tap into the steampunk thing.
That'd get them something that fits in with their existing IP but can't really be used across games, and can still use heroic 28mm minis.
So basically the way it was handled in 4th edition with Apocalypse?
Yes, absolutely. Apocalypse was a good way to let people play giant battles with giant toys. it was still around in 6th, even. But it didn't sell enough giant toys, so now the line is completely blurred.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Now don't say that. Facts do nothing but stain our bright white armour. Let's talk about the GFC some more, 'cause that only happened 6 years ago and is totally the reason why GW's 13/14 report is bad (except it's not bad - everything is fine!).
I assume this was a snipe at me - If you read my post I said it was a reason why GW might have focussed on its core games rather than risky new product releases. At no point have I suggested that the financials aren't negative, although imoGW is far away from collapse and has some very easy to implement solutions available to boost sales. I am however disappointed at how many gloaters there are [you brand anyone who doesn't join in the GW bashing a 'white knight', so I'll make generalisations too] trumpeting how wonderful it is that GW posted some negative financials. It's almost as though they have a personal reason to want GW to fail, despite spending their time posting on a website with an overwhelming 40k bias. The same 5 or 6 people always try to tear down any positive threads, inflate any negativity, and gang up on anyone who dares to disagree or have a more positive outlook. I ignore most of it because it boils down to 'hating' GW, because, GW.
Back OT - I think the role of GW shops in the US is different to the UK. In the UK [I would assume] most gamers play in a club, or round each other's houses. GW shops are more a place to buy models, unless you are too young to be in a club. Therefore the move to 1 man shops with the associated lack of gaming space wouldn't have such a negative impact. In the US most people [again I assume] need shops as a place to game, as clubs are far less prevalent. 1 man shops and reduced gaming is going to have a much larger negative impact, which could help to explain the poor sales in North America.
I remember when BFG and Inq came out, the idea of playing a campaign at all levels of an invasion was the best idea ever. A planetary battle leading to a large scale assault which led to a major offensive in a particular area which led to a strike force.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Now don't say that. Facts do nothing but stain our bright white armour. Let's talk about the GFC some more, 'cause that only happened 6 years ago and is totally the reason why GW's 13/14 report is bad (except it's not bad - everything is fine!).
I assume this was a snipe at me - If you read my post I said it was a reason why GW might have focussed on its core games rather than risky new product releases. At no point have I suggested that the financials aren't negative, although imoGW is far away from collapse and has some very easy to implement solutions available to boost sales. I am however disappointed at how many gloaters there are [you brand anyone who doesn't join in the GW bashing a 'white knight', so I'll make generalisations too] trumpeting how wonderful it is that GW posted some negative financials. It's almost as though they have a personal reason to want GW to fail, despite spending their time posting on a website with an overwhelming 40k bias. The same 5 or 6 people always try to tear down any positive threads, inflate any negativity, and gang up on anyone who dares to disagree or have a more positive outlook. I ignore most of it because it boils down to 'hating' GW, because, GW.
Back OT - I think the role of GW shops in the US is different to the UK. In the UK [I would assume] most gamers play in a club, or round each other's houses. GW shops are more a place to buy models, unless you are too young to be in a club. Therefore the move to 1 man shops with the associated lack of gaming space wouldn't have such a negative impact. In the US most people [again I assume] need shops as a place to game, as clubs are far less prevalent. 1 man shops and reduced gaming is going to have a much larger negative impact, which could help to explain the poor sales in North America.
Do I need to re-post the number of threads shut down by GW apologists for rudeness and bullying as opposed to GW-critics? I'll give ya a hint, it's like 5-0.
WayneTheGame wrote: I remember when BFG and Inq came out, the idea of playing a campaign at all levels of an invasion was the best idea ever. A planetary battle leading to a large scale assault which led to a major offensive in a particular area which led to a strike force.
Such a shame that they didn't embrace it.
I still do that for campagins. Who ever wins the space war gets bonuses, like 500 bonus points to spend on their list and they can go over.
If you lose a hero, that hero is out for the entire campagin.
They need to learn from their previous experiences.
Why should Kirby change anything about GW? The company will survive a couple more years even if they actually start losing money they have cash reserves. He's 64, a couple more years giving himself dividends and it'll me time to sell up whatever is left. He's a multimillionaire. I don't see anything that suggests he's interested in the long term health of the company. By at least one account he doesn't even like science fiction.
David Pringle recalls, 'I think there was some pulling two ways between Bryan Ansell (who was all for the books) and Tom Kirby (who tended to be against them — I remember him telling me that he hated fantasy and that his favourite writer was Jane Austen).'
Yeah. And you deserve it. Ever. Single. Word of it.
And do you know why?
'Cause this report makes me mad. Very mad. And the reason for that is quite simple: For months - nay, years now - we've had the back and forth with the wilfully blind pro-GW crowd, the "Rah rah death to GW" people, and everything in between. I was prepared for the smug satisfaction of an "I told you so" from a select group of people should the report show GW's growth, and even I thought this report would show the growth that things like Marines, Knights and a new edition of 40K might bring. But guess what? It didn't.
The report is BAD. Things are going south for GW and no amount of blind white-knighting nonsense is going to change that. It's right there in fething black and white:
How much more needs to be said? You can make all the excuses in the world, but we know the reasons why. We see them every single day with this company. Stop trying to pretend like it's something else other than the people in the company mismanaging it.
Given that Reinholt understands what is going on and given that there is so much chatter going on about it I do wonder why the account handlers of these big investors haven't started asking questions. I understand that the interweb allows millions of opinions and theories, but there is no smoke without fire. You'd of thought some account handler somewhere might start wondering if there is something amiss and have a closer look!?
Wolfstan wrote: Given that Reinholt understands what is going on and given that there is so much chatter going on about it I do wonder why the account handlers of these big investors haven't started asking questions. I understand that the interweb allows millions of opinions and theories, but there is no smoke without fire. You'd of thought some account handler somewhere might start wondering if there is something amiss and have a closer look!?
You're misunderstanding the motivations of these large investors.
As my old Economics teacher was fond of saying, the trend of the stock market is always up. You just have to hang in long enough and, even with cliff edges and recessions, ultimately you should make a return, the only variable is how much. If the company in question pays a regular dividend then that's ultimately all you're looking for.
Most of the low level investors have already bailed in January, and the majority of those left are looking at making investments in terms of years and decades, not a quick buck in the course of a few months.
Alternatively, some may consider GW a ripe target for a takeover, which would likely cause a steep increase in share price, and be gambling on that happening, after all, if they've held stock for more than a year or two already, the current price still shows a good ROI, so why not?
While longterm the best strategy would be to do a complete rewrite of 40k's rules, going back to its roots as a platoon-level game with additional rules to scale down to skirmish a la Infinity (more detail?) or up to large battles (more streamlined), they'd likely face a huge amount of backlash for it; I was too young to care but does anyone from the 2nd -> 3rd transition remember if it happened then?
I just remember that 3rd edition sucked so bad that out group completely stopped playing 40K despite having multiple complete painted armies...
Also agree 100% with CalgarsPimpHand. 40k and WHFB should have been streamlined and balanced by now, and the supplements should have been things like FW has done - Vraks, Damocles, etc.
They have been working on 40K rules for 27 years and WHFB for 31 years and still can't write a tight, coherent rule set. Better than a quarter of a century of trying and they still can't pull it off. The length of time involved makes it a management problem. The toss up is whether management just doesn't care or is totally incompetent.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Why should Kirby change anything about GW? The company will survive a couple more years even if they actually start losing money they have cash reserves. He's 64, a couple more years giving himself dividends and it'll me time to sell up whatever is left.
The thing about having large cash reserves, a weak share price and not having a controlling stake in the company is that it makes you an attractive target for a takeover. If Kirby wants the exit to be on his terms then he has every incentive to change things.
Wolfstan wrote:Given that Reinholt understands what is going on and given that there is so much chatter going on about it I do wonder why the account handlers of these big investors haven't started asking questions. I understand that the interweb allows millions of opinions and theories, but there is no smoke without fire. You'd of thought some account handler somewhere might start wondering if there is something amiss and have a closer look!?
Because from an institutional investor point of view, GW really isn't important at all.
Wolfstan wrote: Given that Reinholt understands what is going on and given that there is so much chatter going on about it I do wonder why the account handlers of these big investors haven't started asking questions. I understand that the interweb allows millions of opinions and theories, but there is no smoke without fire. You'd of thought some account handler somewhere might start wondering if there is something amiss and have a closer look!?
Most investors don't care.
Keep in mind GW is tiny; unless a fund is very small, it probably represents basis points (a basis point is .01%) of exposure for most investment firms, or is held in individual accounts by either current employees or non-professional investors.
Part of why GW has gotten away with being managed so incompetently for so long is actually precisely what you have just noticed: there is no adult supervision because nobody cares. If I'm running a $1bn investment fund, and I own 5% of GW, that's still only roughly $15-$20mm worth of exposure.
It's the kind of thing you assign the intern or the first year analyst to as a learning experience.
Wolfstan wrote: Given that Reinholt understands what is going on and given that there is so much chatter going on about it I do wonder why the account handlers of these big investors haven't started asking questions. I understand that the interweb allows millions of opinions and theories, but there is no smoke without fire. You'd of thought some account handler somewhere might start wondering if there is something amiss and have a closer look!?
You're misunderstanding the motivations of these large investors.
As my old Economics teacher was fond of saying, the trend of the stock market is always up. You just have to hang in long enough and, even with cliff edges and recessions, ultimately you should make a return, the only variable is how much. If the company in question pays a regular dividend then that's ultimately all you're looking for.
Most of the low level investors have already bailed in January, and the majority of those left are looking at making investments in terms of years and decades, not a quick buck in the course of a few months.
Alternatively, some may consider GW a ripe target for a takeover, which would likely cause a steep increase in share price, and be gambling on that happening, after all, if they've held stock for more than a year or two already, the current price still shows a good ROI, so why not?
No I'm not. I know they are in it for the long haul, which is why I'm wondering why alarm bells aren't ringing. A lot of people, and that includes people who seem to know about this stuff are indicating that GW is on a downward slope. So if your investment plan is 5/10/15/20 years wouldn't you want to be sure that it's going to be worth something in the future?
I know people have mentioned take overs, but there is no guarantee of that happening. Is it feasible that an asset stripper could take an interest? If so is that good for an investor or bad?
Part of the problem of suggesting that GW might be able to turn things around by diversifying their product line (making a 3rd core game, bringing back Specialist Games, etc...) is that they've fully wedded themselves to the one-man GW store/webstore/marginalize FLGS sales path.
Those GW stores aren't large enough to carry GW's full line *right now* much less an expanded line. Without having stock "in store" it's hard to get new players to buy. I've talked with several GW managers and had them directly state (fully acknowledging that this is anecdotal, off the record, and info that's several years old) that they have a hard time getting people to start a new army because they can't even stock all the core/troops choices in their stores.
Web sales just aren't, yet (and possibly ever) ready to pick up the slack for getting people into inherently physical, social, hobbies like face-to-face miniatures gaming.
And with GW looking to marginalize the FLGS (to maximize GW's margin on sales), where are people going to get "hooked" on any of these new GW offerings (much less their current games!)? "Out of the way" one-man stores without full stock and no room to game? Online? FLGS' with little incentive to push your games?
It just amazes me that Mr. Kirby is claiming to play "the long game" when there is not a single item in his preamble about actually *growing*. it's all about cutting costs and (mischaracterized) future threats.
Out of the way stores with limited stock and hours, antagonistic relations with distributors and FLGS', high prices, ham-fisted attempts to bully alleged IP infringers, utter disengagement with social media.
Where, out of all of that, is "growth" supposed to come from?
Reinholt wrote: Designing a strategy game is not rocket science; you can find designers. Hell, you could broadly copy the ideas of other good games and just playtest them. If GW lacks the internal talent to do this, the solution is fire the terrible employees and hire better ones.
Again, it's not that they cannot do things, it's that they refuse to do them. A healthy management team could turn GW around quickly by displaying merely an average level of competence.
It isn't even that they do not have the staff. The lad, James, from Mantic games that went to the Studio a few months ago was heavily involved in the creation of Dreadball, I doubt he is alone here, and I think the way the rules are is simply because they are entirely dictated by the financial impetus to 'sell more'. It is the only reason I could see for the unbound in 7th, it is a way of shoehorning in a directive to allow everyone to buy everything.
NoggintheNog wrote: It is the only reason I could see for the unbound in 7th, it is a way of shoehorning in a directive to allow everyone to buy everything.
Nah brah! It's to help forge a better narrative!
In other words I agree with you completely. Allowing everyone to summon Daemons is in the same boat.
While longterm the best strategy would be to do a complete rewrite of 40k's rules, going back to its roots as a platoon-level game with additional rules to scale down to skirmish a la Infinity (more detail?) or up to large battles (more streamlined), they'd likely face a huge amount of backlash for it; I was too young to care but does anyone from the 2nd -> 3rd transition remember if it happened then?
I just remember that 3rd edition sucked so bad that out group completely stopped playing 40K despite having multiple complete painted armies...
Also agree 100% with CalgarsPimpHand. 40k and WHFB should have been streamlined and balanced by now, and the supplements should have been things like FW has done - Vraks, Damocles, etc.
They have been working on 40K rules for 27 years and WHFB for 31 years and still can't write a tight, coherent rule set. Better than a quarter of a century of trying and they still can't pull it off. The length of time involved makes it a management problem. The toss up is whether management just doesn't care or is totally incompetent.
T
It's funny you say that about the 2nd to 3rd transition, because really that's where the game should have been forked into two separate games. A more modern evolution of 2nd intended for skirmishes, and then proper 40k (3rd), which was actually a very good and necessary change to streamline the game. Hell, everything after 3rd has essentially been "3rd edition with extra stuff tacked on", so the bones of 3rd must have been pretty good - having started in 2nd as well, I know it was the contrast with 2nd that upset my group, not any issue with 3rd itself.
They should have let guys like Andy Chambers and Alessio Cavatore continue to evolve those games in the proper directions and refine them. Instead, they drove them out of the company. Like you said, I don't think management was ever really interested in improving 40k. Just making it different enough to sell again as a new edition.
While longterm the best strategy would be to do a complete rewrite of 40k's rules, going back to its roots as a platoon-level game with additional rules to scale down to skirmish a la Infinity (more detail?) or up to large battles (more streamlined), they'd likely face a huge amount of backlash for it; I was too young to care but does anyone from the 2nd -> 3rd transition remember if it happened then?
I just remember that 3rd edition sucked so bad that out group completely stopped playing 40K despite having multiple complete painted armies...
Also agree 100% with CalgarsPimpHand. 40k and WHFB should have been streamlined and balanced by now, and the supplements should have been things like FW has done - Vraks, Damocles, etc.
They have been working on 40K rules for 27 years and WHFB for 31 years and still can't write a tight, coherent rule set. Better than a quarter of a century of trying and they still can't pull it off. The length of time involved makes it a management problem. The toss up is whether management just doesn't care or is totally incompetent.
T
It's funny you say that about the 2nd to 3rd transition, because really that's where the game should have been forked into two separate games. A more modern evolution of 2nd intended for skirmishes, and then proper 40k (3rd), which was actually a very good and necessary change to streamline the game. Hell, everything after 3rd has essentially been "3rd edition with extra stuff tacked on", so the bones of 3rd must have been pretty good - having started in 2nd as well, I know it was the contrast with 2nd that upset my group, not any issue with 3rd itself.
They should have let guys like Andy Chambers and Alessio Cavatore continue to evolve those games in the proper directions and refine them. Instead, they drove them out of the company. Like you said, I don't think management was ever really interested in improving 40k. Just making it different enough to sell again as a new edition.
If you remember, the changes from 2d to 3d edition came at the expense of all of that "Growth" that came in that year before the evolution of the game to the point of company level.
Other examples include-
Expanse from the couple of games, and the D and D material, as well as the specialist games leading the evolution charge for new material.
Forgeworld, Black Library, and the other expansion companies.
Games Day/ Warhammer World and the corporate growth.
Rogue Trader Events ( Hunt for the Fallen being one of my first ones.)
Taking the company Public, and installing the Corporate structure that used and abused their talent/ stores like a bunch of fascists.
AND... the great revolt of the original games designers who then took their talent elsewhere, to leave Jervis and his kid to do the heavy work of lead game designer/ resident old guy.
In the hindsight, the change from 2d to 3d was a train wreck that was jammed to us. I for one didn't want it, but at that point I had several other games from GW to keep me occupied that I really didn't think much of the forewarned implications from some more seasoned and established players. ( I was warned at the time, and it honestly didn't dawn on me that it was going south in inches and yards, and the negative was coming gradually in terms of quality to the game itself.)
Even in the arena of the codexs at the time, they all were- Dry and impersonal as army books and reads. If anything has stayed the same, it is that the books took too long to come out, and they were only used as stopgaps between editions.
It feels exactly the same as it does now, but the cut is too deep at this point. People are honestly losing faith in Kirby and son's corporation gakfest.
Even if he were to leave, the damage is already done, and the market already has moved on.
Again this assumption that there is a consensus that 7th is broken and unplayable [often from people who, by their own admission, haven't played it]. I've got a game tomorrow, and it took 30 seconds to organise. "1850 points, Battle Forged, Maelstrom missions?" "Okay". Simple as that. Unbound isn't for everyone, which is why it's optional. PUGs aren't dead unless you insist on imposing your house rules [e.g. no Lords of War, no Malefic powers, only a certain amount of detatchments etc. etc.]. House rules are a bad idea for PUGs, and always have been.
The BAO, which just finished, used 7th, and allowed Lords of War [albeit a restricted choice] based upon a poll that suggested this is what the attendees wanted. LoW armies were few and did poorly, evidence that they haven't broken the game. Yeah they imposed restrictions so it's not a true reflection of 7th, but restrictions are always imposed by tournaments.
If 40k isn't going in the direction that you would like, fair enough, but to suggest these financials are down to an unplayable ruleset is misleading. An unpopular ruleset [for whatever reason], or a ruleset that came in too soon after the previous, maybe [although, personally, I think it's the best one yet].
Baragash wrote: ... but any forum posts by Mr Mystery are bound to be.....irrelevant.
That kinda goes without saying, but I am interested to know how he might try and defend this. I mean, how does one spin a report like this and make it sound good (outside of Kirky double-speak and playing the victim).
TBH after he diverted the conversation into something about add-on sales and TVs with the "customer is not always right" I lost interest. Anyone who doesn't understand the difference between a customer (or a small number of customers) as an individual (who could well be talking complete gak) and the aggregate customer (that is, the total demand/potential demand for your products - and who is always right) probably isn't going to justify the time you give up to read it.
EDIT: someone actually explained it on p9 of that topic.
Believe Mr Mystery used to post on here at one time, think he is (or was) a GW manager?
I think you generally have to have a disconnect from reality to last in that kind of job for more than 6 months these days, and most go after their BS meter has filled and they have put a few month's wages straight into the till. It was bad enough years ago, can't see it being any better now.
The BAO, which just finished, used 7th, and allowed Lords of War [albeit a restricted choice] based upon a poll that suggested this is what the attendees wanted. LoW armies were few and did poorly, evidence that they haven't broken the game. Yeah they imposed restrictions so it's not a true reflection of 7th, but restrictions are always imposed by tournaments.
So, in essence, what you're saying is they removed the units that break the game, and what was left didn't break the game?
Who'da thunk it?
That's pretty much what I wanted GW to do in the first place, except modifying rather than excluding the most OP units, but they couldn't be arsed.
Unless I missed something in the rules, Unbound is NOT optional ("Both players need not use the same option" is the wording in my copy of the rules) other than the standard that you can refuse to play anyone for any reason.
Anyways, the rules are only one of the issues, pricing being the (much larger) other. Many of us could deal with the convoluted rules if it didn't come with a several hundred dollar price tag as well. The rules could be written better, but I wouldn't say they are "unplayable" as long as you aren't playing TFG who would abuse them.
Still, there's been a significant decrease of sales. There has to be a reason for that. Pricing is likely the biggest one, but I'm sure the depth of the rules and umpteen supplements and dataslates aren't helping.
Not been seem in some while, at least not to post.
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WayneTheGame wrote: Unless I missed something in the rules, Unbound is NOT optional ("Both players need not use the same option" is the wording in my copy of the rules) other than the standard that you can refuse to play anyone for any reason.
Anyways, the rules are only one of the issues, pricing being the (much larger) other. Many of us could deal with the convoluted rules if it didn't come with a several hundred dollar price tag as well. The rules could be written better, but I wouldn't say they are "unplayable" as long as you aren't playing TFG who would abuse them.
Still, there's been a significant decrease of sales. There has to be a reason for that. Pricing is likely the biggest one, but I'm sure the depth of the rules and umpteen supplements and dataslates aren't helping.
While I think we're normally singing from the same sheet Wayne, I think value is the issue, not price. Which I'll concede is partially a semantic argument, but I have no problem paying £30 for a box of minis, it's when there's only 5 minis in that box, or I need two or three boxes to make the unit viable in game that I have an issue.
I think entry price into the hobby is to high. Rulebooks & codexes are simply to high. I know quite a few people who have all the books since they switched to hardbacks but that haven't bought a book since 1-2 hardbacks in. Where as all of those people were buying all books in 3rd-5th. The release schedule didn't help but the cost is what killed that particular purchase.
That said locally 7th has revitalized 40k and store owners are saying they're sales have gone up dramatically since the drop and we're seeing far more attendees at events and discussion in our facebook group.
Hopefully GW can right the ship or it's not as bad as predicted. It would suck to have to learn to play Warmachine
tyrannosaurus wrote: Again this assumption that there is a consensus that 7th is broken and unplayable [often from people who, by their own admission, haven't played it]. I've got a game tomorrow, and it took 30 seconds to organise. "1850 points, Battle Forged, Maelstrom missions?" "Okay". Simple as that. Unbound isn't for everyone, which is why it's optional. PUGs aren't dead unless you insist on imposing your house rules [e.g. no Lords of War, no Malefic powers, only a certain amount of detatchments etc. etc.]. House rules are a bad idea for PUGs, and always have been.
Says imposing house rules is bad. Restricts game to Battle Forged house rule.
The big issue with 7th is the community dispersion it is creating. Everyone has their own way to play it, and major adjustments are something many seem to want to make (though all of them a bit different) to be willing to play.
When one of the strength's of your product was the ubiquity of it and the ability to easily find pick-up games, this is a real issue. You are taking your strength and putting it to the torch.
My view is that 7th will be shown to be a commercial failure, which will lead to further falling sales and an erosion of GW's market position and profitability. That's not a comment on 7th as a game, but rather 7th as a product: bad.
Reinholt wrote: The big issue with 7th is the community dispersion it is creating. Everyone has their own way to play it, and major adjustments are something many seem to want to make (though all of them a bit different) to be willing to play.
You had some of this before (Pro/Anti FW, pro/anti special characters even), but not to this degree. Not by a long shot.
The pro/anti battleforge/unbound and the pro/anti Lords of War are more decisive than the pro/anti FW ever was. IMHO.
I don't know that I agree. At least with the conclusion. While I do see a bit of dispersion in the way people want to play 7th I haven't seen it affecting getting a game in or dividing the community much at all.
Now online that's a different story. Online you'd think that no one could agree on how to play 7th and no games are ever gonna happen. But on a local level I feel like it's the same as it's been since 3rd edition.
I feel like the next report will be the truly telling one. But I'm not an expert by any stretch.
tyrannosaurus wrote: Again this assumption that there is a consensus that 7th is broken and unplayable [often from people who, by their own admission, haven't played it]. I've got a game tomorrow, and it took 30 seconds to organise. "1850 points, Battle Forged, Maelstrom missions?" "Okay". Simple as that. Unbound isn't for everyone, which is why it's optional. PUGs aren't dead unless you insist on imposing your house rules [e.g. no Lords of War, no Malefic powers, only a certain amount of detatchments etc. etc.]. House rules are a bad idea for PUGs, and always have been.
The BAO, which just finished, used 7th, and allowed Lords of War [albeit a restricted choice] based upon a poll that suggested this is what the attendees wanted. LoW armies were few and did poorly, evidence that they haven't broken the game. Yeah they imposed restrictions so it's not a true reflection of 7th, but restrictions are always imposed by tournaments.
If 40k isn't going in the direction that you would like, fair enough, but to suggest these financials are down to an unplayable ruleset is misleading. An unpopular ruleset [for whatever reason], or a ruleset that came in too soon after the previous, maybe [although, personally, I think it's the best one yet].
I'm actually of the opinion that 7th is superior to 6th. Sure, it has issues, but so has pretty much every edition, and many of those stem from Codex releases. RAW, 7th IS broken and unplayable, if only for the issues around Psykers and the use of the phrase "Psyker unit" but making the (admittedly rather broad) assumption that two players agree on the RAI in that, and one or two other areas, the heart of the game itself is probably closer to balanced than 6th was. Not perfect, but one good FAQ away from being a lot closer.
I don't know that I agree. At least with the conclusion. While I do see a bit of dispersion in the way people want to play 7th I haven't seen it affecting getting a game in or dividing the community much at all.
Now online that's a different story. Online you'd think that no one could agree on how to play 7th and no games are ever gonna happen. But on a local level I feel like it's the same as it's been since 3rd edition.
I feel like the next report will be the truly telling one. But I'm not an expert by any stretch.
Reinholt wrote: The big issue with 7th is the community dispersion it is creating. Everyone has their own way to play it, and major adjustments are something many seem to want to make (though all of them a bit different) to be willing to play.
When one of the strength's of your product was the ubiquity of it and the ability to easily find pick-up games, this is a real issue. You are taking your strength and putting it to the torch.
My view is that 7th will be shown to be a commercial failure, which will lead to further falling sales and an erosion of GW's market position and profitability. That's not a comment on 7th as a game, but rather 7th as a product: bad.
In my community - large US city - 7th hasn't fractured the community at all. Everyone kind of just transitioned from 6th right into 7th. I have yet to see an unbound game outside of a few youngsters that just field the models they own. We have 2 very active FLGS, and a bustling GW with three tables that are in use 5 days a week, often with a wait.
While I do believe GW has made countless bad decisions, is being mismanaged, snd only has a few years leftsd it currently exists - I dont agree that 7th ed. has splintered the playerbase. At least not where I live and play.
tyrannosaurus wrote: Again this assumption that there is a consensus that 7th is broken and unplayable [often from people who, by their own admission, haven't played it]. I've got a game tomorrow, and it took 30 seconds to organise. "1850 points, Battle Forged, Maelstrom missions?" "Okay". Simple as that. Unbound isn't for everyone, which is why it's optional. PUGs aren't dead unless you insist on imposing your house rules [e.g. no Lords of War, no Malefic powers, only a certain amount of detatchments etc. etc.]. House rules are a bad idea for PUGs, and always have been.
The BAO, which just finished, used 7th, and allowed Lords of War [albeit a restricted choice] based upon a poll that suggested this is what the attendees wanted. LoW armies were few and did poorly, evidence that they haven't broken the game. Yeah they imposed restrictions so it's not a true reflection of 7th, but restrictions are always imposed by tournaments.
If 40k isn't going in the direction that you would like, fair enough, but to suggest these financials are down to an unplayable ruleset is misleading. An unpopular ruleset [for whatever reason], or a ruleset that came in too soon after the previous, maybe [although, personally, I think it's the best one yet].
The guys at Frontline Gaming did a ton of home work to make the BAO come off without a hitch. They also did not use rules right out of the box, written by GW. I mean look at the list of rules for the tournament (http://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/bay-area-open-2014/bao-tournament-format/). You can have this, you can't have that, many, many house rules to make the game "fair" for all players. On the flip side, look at the Warmahordes rules (http://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/bay-area-open-2014/bao-2014-warmahordes-schedule/), theye are following the rules provided by Privateer Press for tournaments with no alterations. Having to house rule everything points to how poor 7th is and why a portion of the player base hates it.
I actually think GWcould get away with a new edition of 40K in the near-ish future, but only if they handled the process with a finesse and transparency that the existing management is likely completely incapable of.
It would need to be different enough to actually merit a new edition to begin with, a genuine attempt to modernise and refine the rules(for my part, I'd suggest moving to a D10 for increased granularity, but then focusing heavily on your basic "roll equal or under" characteristic tests to streamline play, I'd also unify the armour and wounds/HP mechanics across all levels of play from infantry to superheavies, by giving all units an armour value which could exceed 10 and then giving weapons an AP which would reduce the armour value of an enemy by that amount, the final number being the test they have to roll against, and for wounds/HP keep the existing system for infantry models, but for vehicles/MCs replace glancing/penetrating mechanics with a simple reduce to zero wounds/HP then any further hits are catastrophic, roll on a table).
Any such move would likely gain them as much venom from people who are change-averse(for whatever reason valid or pedantic) as it would praise from those who want change, so the process would need to be open and inclusive; dev diaries on the website explaining their thinking, genuine solicitations of feedback and a forum in which to express them, limited public playtesting of the rules well before release so they can actually make changes based on the results. If they genuinely couldn't afford to keep the company going through such a process, Kickstart it for feck's sake; shove a poster in every GW store offering a chance to shape the future of 40K or whatever marketing BS will work, pointing people to the KS, get a proper community rep who's only job is to do the rounds on forums, podcasts and social media promoting the KS and the game/company in general. Look at what CGI are doing with Star Citizen; they make mistakes, they experience delays, and not everyone is happy all of the time(or at all, there're always misanthropes), but they've banked nearly $50million to support one of the most ambitious games ever made and the money keeps coming in, because they're capable of making backers feel like they're engaged in a participative process.
Reinholt wrote: The big issue with 7th is the community dispersion it is creating. Everyone has their own way to play it, and major adjustments are something many seem to want to make (though all of them a bit different) to be willing to play.
When one of the strength's of your product was the ubiquity of it and the ability to easily find pick-up games, this is a real issue. You are taking your strength and putting it to the torch.
My view is that 7th will be shown to be a commercial failure, which will lead to further falling sales and an erosion of GW's market position and profitability. That's not a comment on 7th as a game, but rather 7th as a product: bad.
In my community - large US city - 7th hasn't fractured the community at all. Everyone kind of just transitioned from 6th right into 7th. I have yet to see an unbound game outside of a few youngsters that just field the models they own. We have 2 very active FLGS, and a bustling GW with three tables that are in use 5 days a week, often with a wait.
While I do believe GW has made countless bad decisions, is being mismanaged, snd only has a few years leftsd it currently exists - I dont agree that 7th ed. has splintered the playerbase. At least not where I live and play.
You can't use your one store as a basis for the entire GW player base. There are just as many if not more stores that saw a dramatic decrease of GW games in the past two years.
I've been around since RT and I've NEVER seen it this dismal.
I don't know that I agree. At least with the conclusion. While I do see a bit of dispersion in the way people want to play 7th I haven't seen it affecting getting a game in or dividing the community much at all.
Now online that's a different story. Online you'd think that no one could agree on how to play 7th and no games are ever gonna happen. But on a local level I feel like it's the same as it's been since 3rd edition.
I feel like the next report will be the truly telling one. But I'm not an expert by any stretch.
Now, where have I heard that before?
It will always continue to be true, that's why, right up until the point where GW ceases to trade or becomes privately owned again (and therefore is no longer obliged to make it's financials public.)
The fact is, GWcan continue to play this game for some while longer, ie release new, shiny, big ticket stuff in order to limp from report to report. They've already done the easy thing this year with a new edition, but the one thing everyone unanimously praises, the depth of the IP, means they can continue to mine their history for the next Imperial Knights.
I've had, from a source I trust, an implication that there's some really exciting stuff in the pipeline, but he's an ex-staffer, so I filter anything he tells me through that fact, but if sound decisions were made and action was taken when the interim report showed the problem, it would surely be the coming year where the fruits of those decisions would be ready?
Nobody is more skeptical that GW have either the awareness, desire or talent to fix their predicament, but of they were to take action, it would take a reasonable lead in time for those actions to show.
EDIT
Interestingly, autocorrect inserted "Priestley owned" instead of "privately owned."
Reinholt wrote: The big issue with 7th is the community dispersion it is creating. Everyone has their own way to play it, and major adjustments are something many seem to want to make (though all of them a bit different) to be willing to play.
When one of the strength's of your product was the ubiquity of it and the ability to easily find pick-up games, this is a real issue. You are taking your strength and putting it to the torch.
My view is that 7th will be shown to be a commercial failure, which will lead to further falling sales and an erosion of GW's market position and profitability. That's not a comment on 7th as a game, but rather 7th as a product: bad.
In my community - large US city - 7th hasn't fractured the community at all. Everyone kind of just transitioned from 6th right into 7th. I have yet to see an unbound game outside of a few youngsters that just field the models they own. We have 2 very active FLGS, and a bustling GW with three tables that are in use 5 days a week, often with a wait.
While I do believe GW has made countless bad decisions, is being mismanaged, snd only has a few years leftsd it currently exists - I dont agree that 7th ed. has splintered the playerbase. At least not where I live and play.
Your FLGS encompasses the entire international player base?!?!
Really dude? My reply begins with "In my community" and ends with "At least not where I live and play".
I don't even..
Hulksmash wrote: I feel like the next report will be the truly telling one. But I'm not an expert by any stretch.
Thing is though... this last report was a new edition of their flagship game, plus a big kit with nostalgic value (Knight), plus during this year was the 6th edition Space Marine codex, which is the bestselling codex for the bestselling army. And they still had a drop.
What could they do for the next report that could match? 9th edition Fantasy? Necrons? Dark Eldar? Bretonnia?
And then add in that switching their remaining stores to single employee stores could cause another 10 million in lost sales because of reduction of opening hours to save salaries and to get smaller foot prints and save rent.
This has been a year of the biggest splash releases of their best selling stuff and still the revenue drops. And given that everything gets released at a slightly higher price means their actual volume is down even more than their revenue.
Shrinking customer base that's buying less. Shrinking retail presence. Shrinking sales in all channels but FW & BL. Shrinking market share.
4 million spent on a new website that generated... no change in sales.
We don't need to wait six months for the next report to be the telling one. This one was. I was positive about their ability to make the single employee store plan work through hard sales and I was wrong. This report showed it.
I would be interested in the market research around the following series of questions. I think they would go along way in giving GW some direction.
1) If GW were to stop publishing rules, would you continue to purchase GW models?
2) If GW were to cease operations, would you continue to play thier games with your playgroup?
3) If yes, then which of GW's games would you continue to play?
4) Which edition of the rules of the above games would your playgroup use?
That would give them an edition to use as a target for a reset button. While model production is good, I think they would find that it isn't the driving force behind sales, and somehow the cart has to be put back behind the horse.
If the product you offer is solid and desireable, then one man stores be damned, people will find time to track down your out of the way store and come in.
If the rules are solid, then you can stretch the price point before people start to complain.
I think it will be telling if the board tells Kirby "no". If that happens I have hope that the ship can be pumped dry and set back on course.
Orock wrote: It might sound crazy, but improving the profitability could pave the way for a reduction in prices.
This made me chuckle.
While I have no doubt that the writer has some business experience, it is evident that he/she is a bit jaded, just as I would be, and allowing excuses to be too easily accepted. It's a real shame the other players in the table top gaming space are not publicly traded so we could see a comparison.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shotgun wrote: I would be interested in the market research around the following series of questions. I think they would go along way in giving GW some direction.
1) If GW were to stop publishing rules, would you continue to purchase GW models?
2) If GW were to cease operations, would you continue to play thier games with your playgroup?
3) If yes, then which of GW's games would you continue to play?
4) Which edition of the rules of the above games would your playgroup use?
That would give them an edition to use as a target for a reset button. While model production is good, I think they would find that it isn't the driving force behind sales, and somehow the cart has to be put back behind the horse.
If the product you offer is solid and desireable, then one man stores be damned, people will find time to track down your out of the way store and come in.
If the rules are solid, then you can stretch the price point before people start to complain.
I think it will be telling if the board tells Kirby "no". If that happens I have hope that the ship can be pumped dry and set back on course.
To quote GW:
We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche.” (page 3, bottom half of the page in financial report)
We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche.” (page 3, bottom half of the page in financial report)
I still don't get how someone (as in a shareholder) reading that line wasn't like "Are you barmy? Those things are even MORE important in a niche"
Frontline is talking their book, but in fairness, that's what they should be doing to protect their own business. I can't fault them for trying to put a positive spin on that article.
In a way, it is also completely correct: if GW takes the correct actions on the back of the cost cutting (better rules, better community relations, lower cost of entry, using scale advantages to achieve pricing advantages to eliminate competition, market research, etc.) then it's one-hundred percent correct this will have been positive.
However, that's a giant IF, and part of why I think a place like frontline might hold the view expressed in that article (erroneously, in my view) is that they probably compare GW to themselves (being another company in the gaming space), and thus assume more competence than GW deserves.
It's true that GW could use this as a springboard to massive growth and profitability; the article is correct about that. Sadly, I think my prediction that they will instead do a bunch of things they shouldn't and continue with the stuff that doesn't work is more likely.
MWHistorian wrote: That raises a good question, is 40k now over saturated? Can they milk this cow any longer?
If not, do you think they'll find another cow?
A quick way would be look more at licences.
I have enough unpainted minis right now to last the rest of my life. And there's enough BL books that I can always find something I want to read when looking for a light SF/fantasy book.
But I'd still pay for some cool 40k t-shirts, action figures and other swag.
That's something I really don't understand why GW does not go into.
MWHistorian wrote: That raises a good question, is 40k now over saturated? Can they milk this cow any longer? If not, do you think they'll find another cow?
A quick way would be look more at licences.
I have enough unpainted minis right now to last the rest of my life. And there's enough BL books that I can always find something I want to read when looking for a light SF/fantasy book.
But I'd still pay for some cool 40k t-shirts, action figures and other swag.
That's something I really don't understand why GW does not go into.
Unofrotunately when they have branched out into things like that they've demonstrated the same bizarre approach (e.g the occasional Black Library T-shirts) - very expensive, not promoted outside the usual channels like WD and limited edition.
There's also a danger that someone wearing a 40K shirt might veer dangerously close to counting as marketing - surely not!
Orock wrote: It might sound crazy, but improving the profitability could pave the way for a reduction in prices.
This made me chuckle.
While I have no doubt that the writer has some business experience, it is evident that he/she is a bit jaded, just as I would be, and allowing excuses to be too easily accepted. It's a real shame the other players in the table top gaming space are not publicly traded so we could see a comparison.
No it not, it really is not. If anything GW has proved going public is the worse thing to happen to a table top minituare game company player base.
Noir wrote: No it not, it really is not. If anything GW has proved going public is the worse thing to happen to a table top minituare game company player base.
I meant purely for data access, not for the multitude of other reasons why shouldn't be public.
Wow, that Frontline post was bad. I don't think you could credibly write what was written if you'd kept up with the reports since the two loss making years, where GW has been predicting a return to growth because they got their house in order already in almost every report.
Orock wrote: It might sound crazy, but improving the profitability could pave the way for a reduction in prices.
This made me chuckle.
While I have no doubt that the writer has some business experience, it is evident that he/she is a bit jaded, just as I would be, and allowing excuses to be too easily accepted. It's a real shame the other players in the table top gaming space are not publicly traded so we could see a comparison.
I guess that depends on what you hope to find out versus what you can infer given what we know about current economic conditions and the observed behaviour of those companies.
Reinholt wrote: There is no reason GW can't make things work; they just won't.[/color]
Pretty sure there's been a substantial brain drain hasn't there? All the skilled people have been replaced by those that can say "yes!" emphatically enough. They may very well be completely unable to release a good system now.
I have the sinking feeling that's the case; the people there can't write good rules (maybe Kelly since he was around in the old days, maybe he picked something up from Rick and Alessio) or just think that things need to be more convoluted because they're from the old school (Jervis).
I'd try to do everything in my power to get Alessio back writing rules, whether it was as a contractor/consultant or an FTE.
Well, when you pride yourself on hiring for "attitude" and not skill and your underlying belief is that knowing what the market demands is irrelevant, all you will hire is people that will either agree with you or acquiesce.
I still can't get over the "we do not ask the market what it wants" claim.
Noir wrote: No it not, it really is not. If anything GW has proved going public is the worse thing to happen to a table top minituare game company player base.
Being public is not the issue. Being poorly managed is the issue. I've seen this equally between public and private firms.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Now don't say that. Facts do nothing but stain our bright white armour. Let's talk about the GFC some more, 'cause that only happened 6 years ago and is totally the reason why GW's 13/14 report is bad (except it's not bad - everything is fine!).
I assume this was a snipe at me - If you read my post I said it was a reason why GW might have focussed on its core games rather than risky new product releases. At no point have I suggested that the financials aren't negative, although imoGW is far away from collapse and has some very easy to implement solutions available to boost sales. I am however disappointed at how many gloaters there are [you brand anyone who doesn't join in the GW bashing a 'white knight', so I'll make generalisations too] trumpeting how wonderful it is that GW posted some negative financials. It's almost as though they have a personal reason to want GW to fail, despite spending their time posting on a website with an overwhelming 40k bias. The same 5 or 6 people always try to tear down any positive threads, inflate any negativity, and gang up on anyone who dares to disagree or have a more positive outlook. I ignore most of it because it boils down to 'hating' GW, because, GW.
Back OT - I think the role of GW shops in the US is different to the UK. In the UK [I would assume] most gamers play in a club, or round each other's houses. GW shops are more a place to buy models, unless you are too young to be in a club. Therefore the move to 1 man shops with the associated lack of gaming space wouldn't have such a negative impact. In the US most people [again I assume] need shops as a place to game, as clubs are far less prevalent. 1 man shops and reduced gaming is going to have a much larger negative impact, which could help to explain the poor sales in North America.
to address the "gloating" as you called it.
. A company is making a product that you had enjoyed and has the sole license to produce begins to (to you) diminish the product. The company has stated directly that they do not do market research. The company says that they do not even ask what the market wants! The only metric left that would alert those running the company that changes need to be made is the financial reporting. Poor performance, that's it and that's all. So, those that are "gloating" are expressing their hope that these dire reports may affect the change that so desperately desire.
Now, the truly terrible thing about not doing market research and investigating what a market will bear is that the only way that you have of knowing a product will win or lose is to spend and wait for results. Following that bit, the truly terrible thing is that even after a win/loss you still don't do market research and you have no idea why it won/lost.
. A company is making a product that you had enjoyed and has the sole license to produce begins to (to you) diminish the product. The company has stated directly that they do not do market research. The company says that they do not even ask what the market wants! The only metric left that would alert those running the company that changes need to be made is the financial reporting. Poor performance, that's it and that's all. So, those that are "gloating" are expressing their hope that these dire reports may affect the change that so desperately desire.
Now, the truly terrible thing about not doing market research and investigating what a market will bear is that the only way that you have of knowing a product will win or lose is to spend and wait for results. Following that bit, the truly terrible thing is that even after a win/loss you still don't do market research and you have no idea why it won/lost.
Which is exactly what GW is facing. Without research or anything in place to find out what the market actually wants, all they are left with is "Sales are down". They have no idea why sales are down, or what can be done to fix it. They're basically coming up with an idea in isolation, putting it out there and seeing if it gets any bites. If it does, they figure they can do more of the same but if it doesn't, they have no idea why and waste more time trying another idea that may or may not fail.
Hulksmash wrote: I feel like the next report will be the truly telling one. But I'm not an expert by any stretch.
Thing is though... this last report was a new edition of their flagship game, plus a big kit with nostalgic value (Knight), plus during this year was the 6th edition Space Marine codex, which is the bestselling codex for the bestselling army. And they still had a drop.
What could they do for the next report that could match? 9th edition Fantasy? Necrons? Dark Eldar? Bretonnia?
Plus Christmas. Don't forget that huge dump of cash into the coffers.
. A company is making a product that you had enjoyed and has the sole license to produce begins to (to you) diminish the product. The company has stated directly that they do not do market research. The company says that they do not even ask what the market wants! The only metric left that would alert those running the company that changes need to be made is the financial reporting. Poor performance, that's it and that's all. So, those that are "gloating" are expressing their hope that these dire reports may affect the change that so desperately desire.
Now, the truly terrible thing about not doing market research and investigating what a market will bear is that the only way that you have of knowing a product will win or lose is to spend and wait for results. Following that bit, the truly terrible thing is that even after a win/loss you still don't do market research and you have no idea why it won/lost.
Which is exactly what GW is facing. Without research or anything in place to find out what the market actually wants, all they are left with is "Sales are down". They have no idea why sales are down, or what can be done to fix it. They're basically coming up with an idea in isolation, putting it out there and seeing if it gets any bites. If it does, they figure they can do more of the same but if it doesn't, they have no idea why and waste more time trying another idea that may or may not fail.
It's truly mind-boggling.
Even if it does work, they won't necessarily understand why it worked, so won't be able to capitalise on whatever aspect was successful.
That sounded like an attempt to calm passengers on the Titanic.
I've known those guys over at Frontline for years. In person, face to face, played against most of them, have them in my cell phone. They truly have an upbeat attitude that permeates into just about everything that they do.
They especially have to keep that upbeat attitude in the face of these disappointing yearly results of a company from which they derive a large portion of their income.
While I don't agree with that assessment, I do understand that this is a genuine opinion.
Idolator wrote: Plus Christmas. Don't forget that huge dump of cash into the coffers.
I don't know what your childhood was like, but Christmas is actually every year (so a Christmas season would have been included in the current report as well).
On a more serious note; I assume you mean the next half-year report. The first half of GW's business year only goes through November (June through November plus December through May for the whole fiscal year). So, the upcoming half-year will be measured against the one that, albeit disappointing, included the Space Marine release, so it could end up looking rather bleak.
Idolator wrote: Plus Christmas. Don't forget that huge dump of cash into the coffers.
I don't know what your childhood was like, but Christmas is actually every year (so a Christmas season would have been included in the current report as well).
On a more serious note; I assume you mean the next half-year report. The first half of GW's business year only goes through November (June through November plus December through May for the whole fiscal year). So, the upcoming half-year will be measured against the one that, albeit disappointing, included the Space Marine release, so it could end up looking rather bleak.
It's to reference the second half of the years performance. That includes Christmas and a ton of releases (including the basic rules for their biggest selling line) and still only managed to have 2.5 million better sales than the first half of the year. Not enough to overcome the first halls dismal reporting.
GW doesn't ever break down the annual reporting into it's constituent parts so some math had to be done. A 2.5 million increase in sales after factoring in Christmas (the biggest selling season of the year), new product releases, and a new edition of the core rules of their biggest seller only generating that small of an increase is not good at all.
Idolator wrote: A 2.5 million increase in sales after factoring in Christmas (the biggest selling season of the year), ...
I'm fairly sure GW have said in their financials previously that Christmas isn't actually a huge sales boost for them. Which, given the nature of their release cycle and the fact that they don't do sales, would make sense.
Yodhrin wrote: I actually think GWcould get away with a new edition of 40K in the near-ish future, but only if they handled the process with a finesse and transparency that the existing management is likely completely incapable of.
....
I also think they could manage it because there are so many people who haven't bought 7th who have nothing to lose by a swift transition to 8th. But the 8th edition would have to fix the problems, which I have no confidence of.
Someone else has to follow up because I'm on my phone, but masterminis is reporting that the Games Day manager, Brian Aderson, is leaving the company tomorrow after over a decade of service, to paraphrase. I'm told his own Facebook confirmed this.
As the ship takes on water, even the bilge rats be packing their dirty bags?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Someone else has to follow up because I'm on my phone, but masterminis is reporting that the Games Day manager, Brian Aderson, is leaving the company tomorrow after over a decade of service, to paraphrase. I'm told his own Facebook confirmed this.
As the ship takes on water, even the bilge rats be packing their dirty bags?
CalgarsPimpHand talks a lot of sense in his posts. It is like we are channelling the same goddess of wargaming business. I too believe 40K is saturated, people have stopped buying and that is what caused the sales drop.
Prices are too high. Doubling the price of codexes is what helped cause this last year's sudden collapse. People didn't buy 6th edition codexes because they doubled in price. People who don't buy codexes don't buy models either. Then they don't buy the next edition of the rules, then they leave the game.
The rules bloat is also a problem. For every player who thinks Flyers or LoW are the best thing ever, there is another one who thinks they are worst thing ever. This didn't matter than those extra things were in optional supplements (Apocalypse and so on) but now they have been crammed into the core rules, pissing off half the player base.
So, in the spirit of positivity and hope, here is my Five Point Plan to Fix Games Workshop
1. Reconnect with your customers. Right now you have got half your old fans actively working to undermine you because they are so angry with the direction you have taken the company and the game(s).
2. Reconnect with your retailers. You might make less from one kit sold through an independent, but if you can sell two kits through the independent you make more. Also you can't fill the world with official GW shops. It is too big.
3. Make proper use of your shops. Get some new games to sell. Bring in the best licensed 3rd party games such as the Fantasy Flight role-playing and card games.
Get more staff to run demo games and modelling skills classes. You don't have any other way to recruit new players because you pissed off the veterans, you don't go to shows, you don't sponsor clubs and tournaments any more, and you don't sell White Dwarf in newsagents.
4. Make some boxed games. Some of them should be complete-in-one-box type (like Space Hulk.) Others could be extendable, like a renewed Battle Fleet Gothic with fleet expansion packs. You should make some new games though, not just recycle old ideas. You need to show people who go into your shops that they don't have to just spend £500 on being able to play only one game.
5. Prices need to at least be held for a while to allow people to price back in. Maybe do some bundles to provide value without obvious price cuts.
Also, the rules and codexes really need to be available in cheaper editions. People who don't buy the rulebooks won't buy the models.
Idolator wrote: Plus Christmas. Don't forget that huge dump of cash into the coffers.
I don't know what your childhood was like, but Christmas is actually every year (so a Christmas season would have been included in the current report as well).
On a more serious note; I assume you mean the next half-year report. The first half of GW's business year only goes through November (June through November plus December through May for the whole fiscal year). So, the upcoming half-year will be measured against the one that, albeit disappointing, included the Space Marine release, so it could end up looking rather bleak.
It's to reference the second half of the years performance. That includes Christmas and a ton of releases (including the basic rules for their biggest selling line) and still only managed to have 2.5 million better sales than the first half of the year. Not enough to overcome the first halls dismal reporting.
GW doesn't ever break down the annual reporting into it's constituent parts so some math had to be done. A 2.5 million increase in sales after factoring in Christmas (the biggest selling season of the year), new product releases, and a new edition of the core rules of their biggest seller only generating that small of an increase is not good at all.
Ah, I misunderstood your post then. I thought you were adding to WayneTheGame's musings over what could be potential money-makers in the near future.
Idolator wrote: A 2.5 million increase in sales after factoring in Christmas (the biggest selling season of the year), ...
I'm fairly sure GW have said in their financials previously that Christmas isn't actually a huge sales boost for them. Which, given the nature of their release cycle and the fact that they don't do sales, would make sense.
Though given the fact that Christmas is a huge sale boost to everything that isn't basic commodities it also would not make sense.
I take with a large pinch of salt anything GW say in their preambles since so much of it is excuses for why their figures are crap.
Kilkrazy wrote: CalgarsPimpHand talks a lot of sense in his posts. It is like we are channelling the same goddess of wargaming business. I too believe 40K is saturated, people have stopped buying and that is what caused the sales drop.
Prices are too high. Doubling the price of codexes is what helped cause this last year's sudden collapse. People didn't buy 6th edition codexes because they doubled in price. People who don't buy codexes don't buy models either. Then they don't buy the next edition of the rules, then they leave the game.
The rules bloat is also a problem. For every player who thinks Flyers or LoW are the best thing ever, there is another one who thinks they are worst thing ever. This didn't matter than those extra things were in optional supplements (Apocalypse and so on) but now they have been crammed into the core rules, pissing off half the player base.
So, in the spirit of positivity and hope, here is my Five Point Plan to Fix Games Workshop
1. Reconnect with your customers. Right now you have got half your old fans actively working to undermine you because they are so angry with the direction you have taken the company and the game(s).
2. Reconnect with your retailers. You might make less from one kit sold through an independent, but if you can sell two kits through the independent you make more. Also you can't fill the world with official GW shops. It is too big.
3. Make proper use of your shops. Get some new games to sell. Bring in the best licensed 3rd party games such as the Fantasy Flight role-playing and card games.
Get more staff to run demo games and modelling skills classes. You don't have any other way to recruit new players because you pissed off the veterans, you don't go to shows, you don't sponsor clubs and tournaments any more, and you don't sell White Dwarf in newsagents.
4. Make some boxed games. Some of them should be complete-in-one-box type (like Space Hulk.) Others could be extendable, like a renewed Battle Fleet Gothic with fleet expansion packs. You should make some new games though, not just recycle old ideas. You need to show people who go into your shops that they don't have to just spend £500 on being able to play only one game.
5. Prices need to at least be held for a while to allow people to price back in. Maybe do some bundles to provide value without obvious price cuts.
Also, the rules and codexes really need to be available in cheaper editions. People who don't buy the rulebooks won't buy the models.
This. Very much this.
If GW did these things they could easily pull out of their death spiral before its too late.
Instead they've decided to go even more juvenile and just keep doing more of the same thing and then talk about growth potential in their financial reports like maybe it will happen by accident or something.
Murderfang. Now with murderclaws! (you have to say it in an overly dramatic voice)
I'm sure that's just the product to turn things around for them. I'm sure murderfang will sell out repeatedly and save GW.
Johnny: "But I play Orks."
Staffer: "Unbound! Murderfang works with orks. They like killing. He likes killing. It's a natural fit!"
Johnny: "And then maybe I can summon some daemons!"
Staffer: "That's right! They'll work great with the frost rays shooting all over the place from the Stormfangs! Smart move kid!"
Johnny: "Ring me up! I'll buy it all!"
Hey Kirby, be sure to let us know how this all works out for you. I'm sure it'll all be fine. What could go wrong?
Idolator wrote: A 2.5 million increase in sales after factoring in Christmas (the biggest selling season of the year), ...
I'm fairly sure GW have said in their financials previously that Christmas isn't actually a huge sales boost for them. Which, given the nature of their release cycle and the fact that they don't do sales, would make sense.
They may have said that, but they have also said that they have had a good year....if you don't count sales and profit. I don't believe that statement at all. Factor in the vagueness of it and it becomes meaningless any way.
If the Christmas season, for which they create wish lists and actually do perform a bit of marketing on their site, were to only generate a 5% increase to sales in a reporting period. That amount would be £3 million.
Compare that to the actual increase in sales of £2.5 million and you can see the problem. Combine that with the Knight, Tempestus, IG and new book release in the same reporting period and you really start to see something.
Honestly, with the way that their statements are written, they would claim that Christmas didn't affect their sales if all they made was Santa suits.
Idolator wrote: A 2.5 million increase in sales after factoring in Christmas (the biggest selling season of the year), ...
I'm fairly sure GW have said in their financials previously that Christmas isn't actually a huge sales boost for them. Which, given the nature of their release cycle and the fact that they don't do sales, would make sense.
Though given the fact that Christmas is a huge sale boost to everything that isn't basic commodities it also would not make sense.
I take with a large pinch of salt anything GW say in their preambles since so much of it is excuses for why their figures are crap.
Dunno if they adjust their release schedule to reduce seasonal effect or what, but indeed it seems that Christmas is not that big a deal for GW. For example in 2009-10, first half-year revenue was £62.5 million, second half £64 million. Pretty much same appears to be true for almost every year. They have mentioned in the reports that they do have some sort of stock/capital buildup for Christmas.
frozenwastes wrote: Instead they've decided to go even more juvenile and just keep doing more of the same thing and then talk about growth potential in their financial reports like maybe it will happen by accident or something.
Murderfang. Now with murderclaws! (you have to say it in an overly dramatic voice)
I'm sure that's just the product to turn things around for them. I'm sure murderfang will sell out repeatedly and save GW.
Johnny: "But I play Orks."
Staffer: "Unbound! Murderfang works with orks. They like killing. He likes killing. It's a natural fit!"
Johnny: "And then maybe I can summon some daemons!"
Staffer: "That's right! They'll work great with the frost rays shooting all over the place from the Stormfangs! Smart move kid!"
Johnny: "Ring me up! I'll buy it all!"
Hey Kirby, be sure to let us know how this all works out for you. I'm sure it'll all be fine. What could go wrong?
Idolator wrote: A 2.5 million increase in sales after factoring in Christmas (the biggest selling season of the year), ...
I'm fairly sure GW have said in their financials previously that Christmas isn't actually a huge sales boost for them. Which, given the nature of their release cycle and the fact that they don't do sales, would make sense.
Though given the fact that Christmas is a huge sale boost to everything that isn't basic commodities it also would not make sense.
I take with a large pinch of salt anything GW say in their preambles since so much of it is excuses for why their figures are crap.
Dunno if they adjust their release schedule to reduce seasonal effect or what, but indeed it seems that Christmas is not that big a deal for GW. For example in 2009-10, first half-year revenue was £62.5 million, second half £64 million. Pretty much same appears to be true for almost every year. They have mentioned in the reports that they do have some sort of stock/capital buildup for Christmas.
That was actually a good indicator year. As I don't think that there was a "big" release that year. Meaning that Christmas could conceivably be responsible for the 1.5 million increase. Alas GW, in their financial reporting, is as vague and stingy with the numbers as the law allows (maybe even more so).
Edit: if GW were traded on the NYSE, we would be able to know a lot more about the company. Quarterly reports, reports on any litigation, etc. etc.
What an excellent article Orthon! All the confused talk of dividends here that I was too lazy to point out is the first bullet on the page.
GW really should have paid a low dividend and reinvested in itself. It's typical of stalwarts like utilities or tobacco pay out dividends because they do not feel the re-investment will equal growth. In GW's case, it seems a bit more indicative of an inability to turn that money into growth.
Thokt wrote: GW really should have paid a low dividend and reinvested in itself. It's typical of stalwarts like utilities or tobacco pay out dividends because they do not feel the re-investment will equal growth. In GW's case, it seems a bit more indicative of an inability to turn that money into growth.
Here at GW we don't need focus groups or market research or even marketing. We operate in a niche market where our customers treat our product as wonderful and jewel-like. They can't help but buy our wonderful citadel miniatures. We also don't need to reinvest in the company because it's already a finely tuned cash machine with growth potential. What's going to go wrong? 3d printers? Surely you jest. They can only ever make a miniatuere per day and if they get better, we'll just sell Citadel Printers. Our success is assured because we hire for attitude and never skill. Because Steve Jobs.
Here's the thing. We are all now talking about how these numbers are really bad. If you think this is bad, just wait until we get a load of the next period half year results.
GW pulled out all the stops in the last year and still declined. They managed to tick down the losses in the last period by 3% (from 11% to 8%) but that does not show the true effect of 7th edition yet - that will be in the next period reporting. In other words, there are a lot of customers who left BECAUSE of 7th edition (for many various reasons) and this will be felt soon over the next period.
GW also shows no sign of letting up on the price increases. I have never seen a single company in my life (that being only a short 50 years), continue to ratchet up pricing this fast. It speaks volumes to this one thing: GW knows they are in very serious trouble, but they don't know why they are. They have managed to cover up the customer losses for the last decade with the price increases, so why not do that even harder than ever before.
The most telling number in the whole financials, however, even more than the dismal revenues and massive plummet in profits was the cost of sales numbers. Considering the large drop in revenues, the Cost of Sales was relatively flat. This means that it most likely represents fixed costs in getting their product to market. That being said, if you do the math, a 15% drop in sales will put GW into negative territory. The only way to avoid that, is to begin cutting sales costs and with that further revenue erosion will happen. This cycle is then a rinse and repeat and thus the term "death spiral".
At this point, I honestly believe GW cannot fix things. Seventh edition was the last point they could have done it and it didn't happen. Their independent channel relations are shattered, they charge a premium price for a sub-market product, and they are completely ignorant of the real issues they face. As it is, even bringing in a new a great CEO and letting him/her have free reign to fix things would have a hard time doing so with the amount of time left before the collapse takes them.
I know to many I am very pessimistic on GW. However, I have seen this tune played one too many times in quite a few businesses to not know what I am looking at here. While many think this period is bad, I'm willing to say that you all haven't seen anything yet. GW pulled out all the stops and couldn't even get to flat line in the last period. Now, the revenue losses will accelerate very fast from here and in 12-18 months time, we will all be saying how rosy this report looked in comparison.
Idolator wrote: A 2.5 million increase in sales after factoring in Christmas (the biggest selling season of the year), ...
I'm fairly sure GW have said in their financials previously that Christmas isn't actually a huge sales boost for them. Which, given the nature of their release cycle and the fact that they don't do sales, would make sense.
They may have said that, but they have also said that they have had a good year....if you don't count sales and profit. I don't believe that statement at all. Factor in the vagueness of it and it becomes meaningless any way.
If the Christmas season, for which they create wish lists and actually do perform a bit of marketing on their site, were to only generate a 5% increase to sales in a reporting period. That amount would be £3 million.
Compare that to the actual increase in sales of £2.5 million and you can see the problem. Combine that with the Knight, Tempestus, IG and new book release in the same reporting period and you really start to see something.
Honestly, with the way that their statements are written, they would claim that Christmas didn't affect their sales if all they made was Santa suits.
At this point, any year in which GW hasn't yet collapsed is a good year.
Deathspiral! The new Dark Eldar character. He can fight alongside Murderfang thanks to unbound!
Joking aside, the cost of sales number is by far the most troubling bit of information in the report. You have way less product being made and shipped but the core costs of making it don't go down.
The trade sales dropping by 9% or so is also more troubling than it sounds at first because that's at trade discount. So as far as product volume goes, it represents a bit less than twice that in terms of final MSRP worth of product that is not selling.
What this means is that just the sales drop in trade sales alone represents about a 6.5% drop in GW's total worldwide customer volume. And then once you add in the reduction in units sold because of average higher prices on new releases, it gets even scarier. If there is anything to the network effect idea, this is seriously bad. Especially in places like North America that rely heavily on trade sales.
Originally I had made the case that the right combination of location and store staff who use the hard sales approach could sell what GW needs to sell. I missed one very, very obvious thing though. Closing sales with traditional hard sales techniques is a skill. Uh-oh!
GW also shows no sign of letting up on the price increases. I have never seen a single company in my life (that being only a short 50 years), continue to ratchet up pricing this fast. It speaks volumes to this one thing: GW knows they are in very serious trouble, but they don't know why they are. They have managed to cover up the customer losses for the last decade with the price increases, so why not do that even harder than ever before.
Ummm...GW hasn't done annual price increases for two years now. Sure, their new releases seem to get gradually more expensive, but that seems to be how some other notable miniatures companies handle things as well (Privateer Press, most notably). In fact, GW has began to accompany their releases with box deals with moderate discounts, instead of those stupid one-click bundles with no discount.
And yes, I've seen worse price increases. Just got to discontinue certain service from Finnish postal service, whichs price had been hiked up 200% in four years. I moved it to another provider, from where I get it free...
Unfortunately, maybe revenue decline convinces GW that skipping the price increases was a big mistake. In fact, the cause-effect is astonishingly clear...as soon as they discontinued annual price hikes, their revenues went flat or declined.
Hopefully GW can right the ship or it's not as bad as predicted. It would suck to have to learn to play Warmachine
Truer words have never been spoken .
Hey, I made the switch and I love it. I actually feel like all the models I have are relevant to the game, and so are my tactics. That's part of GW's problem: other companies are putting out great products now, and so they're going to have an even harder time winning those customers back. Even if you don't like Warmachine, there's probably something else out there you can find that you very well might like better.
GW also shows no sign of letting up on the price increases. I have never seen a single company in my life (that being only a short 50 years), continue to ratchet up pricing this fast. It speaks volumes to this one thing: GW knows they are in very serious trouble, but they don't know why they are. They have managed to cover up the customer losses for the last decade with the price increases, so why not do that even harder than ever before.
Ummm...GW hasn't done annual price increases for two years now. Sure, their new releases seem to get gradually more expensive, but that seems to be how some other notable miniatures companies handle things as well (Privateer Press, most notably). In fact, GW has began to accompany their releases with box deals with moderate discounts, instead of those stupid one-click bundles with no discount.
And yes, I've seen worse price increases. Just got to discontinue certain service from Finnish postal service, whichs price had been hiked up 200% in four years. I moved it to another provider, from where I get it free...
Unfortunately, maybe revenue decline convinces GW that skipping the price increases was a big mistake. In fact, the cause-effect is astonishingly clear...as soon as they discontinued annual price hikes, their revenues went flat or declined.
Have you not noticed that the price of the core rules jumped $10 (which makes it a $35 increase in about 2 years time from 5th), codices are being split into multiple ones and sold for the same price, and DLC that could've been part of books that have just been released is instead being posted at nearly the same time to fleece buyers for even more money?
GW also shows no sign of letting up on the price increases. I have never seen a single company in my life (that being only a short 50 years), continue to ratchet up pricing this fast. It speaks volumes to this one thing: GW knows they are in very serious trouble, but they don't know why they are. They have managed to cover up the customer losses for the last decade with the price increases, so why not do that even harder than ever before.
Ummm...GW hasn't done annual price increases for two years now. Sure, their new releases seem to get gradually more expensive, but that seems to be how some other notable miniatures companies handle things as well (Privateer Press, most notably). In fact, GW has began to accompany their releases with box deals with moderate discounts, instead of those stupid one-click bundles with no discount.
And yes, I've seen worse price increases. Just got to discontinue certain service from Finnish postal service, whichs price had been hiked up 200% in four years. I moved it to another provider, from where I get it free...
Unfortunately, maybe revenue decline convinces GW that skipping the price increases was a big mistake. In fact, the cause-effect is astonishingly clear...as soon as they discontinued annual price hikes, their revenues went flat or declined.
It should only take one half-wit at GW to realize it is declining sales volume and market share that are pushing GW's profits down. The fact they don't get this is why they're hurting.
Higher prices were driven by margin growth at the expense of volume, because GW was working on the premise of selling the most exclusive, in demand products, in the hobby and toy market. 2 years ago it was at the point where it's price increases lead to decreased sales volume but was able to atleast maintain flat profits. It's obviously hit a tipping point, where prices are met with diminishing returns. If GW is satisfied with its level of profitability it should freeze prices to where they were 2 years ago. If it wants to be more profitable it then has to look at market growth or volume growth to drive that.
The simplest to pursue is market growth, unfortunately they're approaching that by diversifying their market presence in this case allowing the licensing for books and video games. Ideally they'd grow their hobby portion of the market by finding ways to get gamers of other games to reconsider GW games or non-gamers to consider at all.
That has the secondary effect of increasing sales volume but without forcing GW to do something it'd never do, lower prices. If it only wanted to increase volume price drops or volume discounts are the only direct way but diminish "branding," some GW uses to sell its stocks to shareholders.
GW also shows no sign of letting up on the price increases. I have never seen a single company in my life (that being only a short 50 years), continue to ratchet up pricing this fast. It speaks volumes to this one thing: GW knows they are in very serious trouble, but they don't know why they are. They have managed to cover up the customer losses for the last decade with the price increases, so why not do that even harder than ever before.
Ummm...GW hasn't done annual price increases for two years now. Sure, their new releases seem to get gradually more expensive, but that seems to be how some other notable miniatures companies handle things as well (Privateer Press, most notably). In fact, GW has began to accompany their releases with box deals with moderate discounts, instead of those stupid one-click bundles with no discount.
And yes, I've seen worse price increases. Just got to discontinue certain service from Finnish postal service, whichs price had been hiked up 200% in four years. I moved it to another provider, from where I get it free...
Unfortunately, maybe revenue decline convinces GW that skipping the price increases was a big mistake. In fact, the cause-effect is astonishingly clear...as soon as they discontinued annual price hikes, their revenues went flat or declined.
Considering they are mainly selling to a declining veteran customer base, they have in fact been consistently increasing prices on newer releases.
Scions were a 70% price increase over the previous Kaskrin boxed set.
New SW flying dumpster is $81. Space Marine Storm Talon is $45.50. Equivalent sized models only one has a 44% price increase.
White Dwarf monthly to weekly was also a 100% price increase.
I could go on but I won't. Instead of the annual 8%-10% across the board, you are now getting 40%-100% price increases on new stuff. Which hits the existing customers harder?
And it should be pointed out that PP have priced some people out too- I used to be a pretty contented customer of Privateer Press, but issues with the materials and the price have stopped me buying any new stuff in two years.
Da Boss wrote: And it should be pointed out that PP have priced some people out too- I used to be a pretty contented customer of Privateer Press, but issues with the materials and the price have stopped me buying any new stuff in two years.
While true, the difference for me is that buying a box of PP models feels like a better investment. For instance, I have zero problem buying a Winter Guard unit for $50, plus Officer & Standard (~$15). I would (and have!) balked at buying a squad of anything from GW, because I know that I need more than one to actually use it; I'm not just buying one Tactical Squad, I need two, or three, plus transports, so I'm looking at $80+ a unit and need 2-3 units. On the flipside, that box of WGI is a big chunk of my force, not a fraction.
That's just me though. I have no problem buying anything from PP, but won't buy anything from GW because the value feels a lot less.
Da Boss wrote: And it should be pointed out that PP have priced some people out too- I used to be a pretty contented customer of Privateer Press, but issues with the materials and the price have stopped me buying any new stuff in two years.
Yeah, that's a good point, a lot of people have pointed out that PP's models are just as expensive as GW's, which they essentially are. Also consider that by all accounts, PP and Warmahordes continue to grow. I would contend GW would not have to actually lower prices if they put more effort into what they're actually producing; i.e. balanced codices, tight rules, and great sculpts. That's why, IMO, it's more of an argument for better value than better prices.
Partially agreed. With PP, I just don't like the big metal miniatures very much. I transported them in foam to germany, and they still ended up in pieces (chipped pieces) when they got there, despite all being pinned, greenstuffed and super glued. At such a steep price and such difficult assembly (I hate assembly), I am deeply unimpressed at the lack of durability of the miniatures. So if they were hard plastic or decent resin, I wouldn't mind, but metal is not a good material for models as bulky as Mulg the Ancient. Their plastic is not very good either though, with difficult to remove mold lines, and sometimes shallow detail or slippage.
The game is actually awesome, and I really enjoy playing it. It's sort of the opposite to GW- their miniatures are often a joy to put together and stay together really well because they are mostly hard plastic, but their rules are just god awful. On balance, I think PP is a better company, but I am not motivated to rebuild my stuff or buy any new stuff since that minor catastrophe.
Both price their miniatures so high that they need to add a LOT of value for me to consider purchasing them, as the miniatures themselves don't justify the price. PP can probably get away with that because they're not paying a large legal team, a giant store network and shareholders.
But as people say, you need fewer PP for an army and the rules are better, which is why PP are still growing, no doubt. I'm just happier in historicals and less pricey producers for Fantasy.
Da Boss wrote: And it should be pointed out that PP have priced some people out too- I used to be a pretty contented customer of Privateer Press, but issues with the materials and the price have stopped me buying any new stuff in two years.
Yeah, that's a good point, a lot of people have pointed out that PP's models are just as expensive as GW's, which they essentially are. Also consider that by all accounts, PP and Warmahordes continue to grow. I would content GW would not have to actually lower prices if they put more effort into what they're actually producing; i.e. balanced codices, tight rules, and great sculpts. That's why, IMO, it's more of an argument for better value than better prices.
Not to derail this that much further. The difference as Wayne pointed out is that a $50 box is a one time purchase and thats really all you will ever need from that unit. The other BIG thing is PP has stated time and again that NO UNIT WILL EVER BE TAKEN OUT OF THE GAME. Meaning that the box of WGI was usable 10 years ago (during MK1) and will be usable in the future. Not on the whim of a new codex to get people to buy the new kits.....
PP has also lowered the price of every model/unit they have retooled from White Metal to Plastics, passing the material savings onto the customer.
GW I think has forgotten a lot from its early days.
Question for Wayshuba. If GW were able to secure financing to restructure their business model would it make a difference? Or in your opinion is it too little to late regardless of what the do?
Even if you don't like Warmachine, there's probably something else out there you can find that you very well might like better.
This. I don't think most GW fans realise just how bogglingly diverse the wargaming hobby is; you just have to look around a bit. And they're not all (or have to be) prepackaged 'one click bundles' consisting of a great, thick, full-colour rulebook, a unique (or rehashed) background, and an accompanying range of specifically designed unique characters and races. Not to mention branded measuring tapes, hobby equipment, paints, dice etc. etc. Even in that case rules, minis and background are pretty easy to seperate, and you can keep two out of three if one doesn't suit you. (Rather than, e.g., take the bizarre stance of "I'm not buying any more GW minis so I have to sell the thousands of pounds' worth I already own".)
While true, the difference for me is that buying a box of PP models feels like a better investment. For instance, I have zero problem buying a Winter Guard unit for $50, plus Officer & Standard (~$15). I would (and have!) balked at buying a squad of anything from GW, because I know that I need more than one to actually use it; I'm not just buying one Tactical Squad, I need two, or three, plus transports, so I'm looking at $80+ a unit and need 2-3 units. On the flipside, that box of WGI is a big chunk of my force, not a fraction.
That's just me though. I have no problem buying anything from PP, but won't buy anything from GW because the value feels a lot less.
And this is exactly why GW needs a good smaller scale skirmish game. Or two.
Unfortunately I don't think this report is very telling of how bad they will end up, so the directors may not get the hint..
It's pretty obvious that the CEO believes his own preamble, and the important thing to take away from it (other than when he wrote it he was at least unprofessionally emotional at best, drunk at worst) is that they believe that the reduction of costs has been mitigated by expenditures of "one off costs"..
In other words, to their minds they've spent money to save money therefore should not only see more profit, but KIRBY honestly believes that sales will increase as early as next year (but gives no reason for it). To those who are unaware of the customer relations issue then all the numbers are lining up for extra dividends.
Here's my 2c, the largest shareholders are most likely the directors themselves, this bodes badly as the payment of dividends during 2012/13 means they built they're parachutes rather than the company.. Meaning that revenue slowed and costs had to be save to continue profit.. I thought the saying "if you don't grow you slow" was evident to all large businesses but it's clear the directors believe this is an private club and not a business with competition.
GOOD NEWS EVERYONE!!
"Risks and uncertainties
...
The bigger risk is the same one I repeat each year, and that is management. So long as we have great people we will be fine. Problems will arise if the board allows egos and private agendas to rule."
I don't need to put my 2c in for this one.. It's clear this is a direct "calm the hell down, I'm the captain" to the directors..
Whilst we won't ever know the details clearly Kirby doesn't have things completely under control.
You can't hand pick your successor in a public company, it's voted by the directors.. Not sure where you heard that?
Will he have the biggest say? Yes
Does he hold away over many of the directors votes? Probably
Will the CEO come front the directors ranks? Most likely,
if they didn't give a clear indication of the experience and education/contacts required for the job, then there's more than a chance this is all just legally required smoke.
But as I stated before kirby has given a direct and public warning for the management to work as a team.. And not "pursue private agendas", so anything can happen in the AGM when the votes are tallied.
xxvaderxx wrote: I find it funny that the is both resigning because of the screw up and hand picking his successor.
But that isn't the case at all. He's only stepping down from the CEO position, because he can't legally be both CEO and chairman at the same time for very long. As far as he and the board are concerned, he's done nothing wrong.
While true, the difference for me is that buying a box of PP models feels like a better investment. For instance, I have zero problem buying a Winter Guard unit for $50, plus Officer & Standard (~$15). I would (and have!) balked at buying a squad of anything from GW, because I know that I need more than one to actually use it; I'm not just buying one Tactical Squad, I need two, or three, plus transports, so I'm looking at $80+ a unit and need 2-3 units. On the flipside, that box of WGI is a big chunk of my force, not a fraction.
That's just me though. I have no problem buying anything from PP, but won't buy anything from GW because the value feels a lot less.
And this is exactly why GW needs a good smaller scale skirmish game. Or two.
You could say they already have one. 40kimo already works fine at 500-750 points. It's at normal point levels that it becomes a clunky mess.
I know what you're saying though - GW need a game specifically catered to smaller skirmish games. But they also need a game catered to large-scale games, as well as apocolyptic games (those two should be kept seperate). They should also be expanding into other game systems entirely but that's another point entirely.
Holy crap had a read through again, I can't belie I missed this "jewel-like" little gem.
"We have no intention to acquire other companies, nor dispose of any of those we own."
** um... The decision to cease production of, and yet threaten litigation to any who attempt to resume the use of specialist games such as Space hulk, blood bowl, and very soon LotR/Hobbit can be directly defined as "disposing"***
"We return all our surplus cash to our owners and try to do so in ever increasing amounts. As a consequence it is probable the share price will rise. But we have no control over that. You do."
***This is either the biggest tugfest of spin-doctoring or further confirms my theory that the only shareholders of note are staff/director members***
While true, the difference for me is that buying a box of PP models feels like a better investment. For instance, I have zero problem buying a Winter Guard unit for $50, plus Officer & Standard (~$15). I would (and have!) balked at buying a squad of anything from GW, because I know that I need more than one to actually use it; I'm not just buying one Tactical Squad, I need two, or three, plus transports, so I'm looking at $80+ a unit and need 2-3 units. On the flipside, that box of WGI is a big chunk of my force, not a fraction.
That's just me though. I have no problem buying anything from PP, but won't buy anything from GW because the value feels a lot less.
And this is exactly why GW needs a good smaller scale skirmish game. Or two.
You could say they already have one. 40kimo already works fine at 500-750 points. It's at normal point levels that it becomes a clunky mess.
I know what you're saying though - GW need a game specifically catered to smaller skirmish games. But they also need a game catered to large-scale games, as well as apocolyptic games (those two should be kept seperate). They should also be expanding into other game systems entirely but that's another point entirely.
My store plays at 1999+1. The cost of a Space Marine army for 2000 points is ridiculous.
(I have no idea how many points this is, but you get the point.)
Centurians - $78
Land Raider - $74
Stalker - $65
Thunder Fire Cannon - $56
Dreadnaught - $46
Tac squad - $40
Tac squad - $40
Rhino - $37
Rhino - $37
Space Marine Captain - $30
7th edition rules - $85
SM Codex - $58
darefsky wrote: Question for Wayshuba. If GW were able to secure financing to restructure their business model would it make a difference? Or in your opinion is it too little to late regardless of what the do?
That would be one part of the equation. But unless the business model, management, and culture changes, it is simply going to be throwing good money after bad.
For example, when Steve Jobs first came back to Apple, he soon realized they were six months from death's doorstep. He quickly focused on getting financing in the form of a $150m investment from Microsoft. The rest, as they say, is history.
GW has some very serious structural issues. Outside investment (which they could raise by selling more stock into the market), would prolong the agony, but it won't fix a terribly run business.
Aye but my point is that you can play around with a starter set and a couple of boxes and you'll have a blast. It's at the 1750+ point range that the game grinds to a halt and becomes a chore to play imo.
If I were head of rules development, I would start from scratch. Release Warhammer 40k - 1st Edition, as a medium-sized ruleset, in current point values the 1250-2000 point range. Then I'd release a skirmish ruleset for small batlles, and an epic ruleset for titans, super heavies etc.
On a personal point of discussion, I went to the local shops today and saw a few of the not price hikes. Instead of a shrinking wall of product being taken up by alternatives, there is an increasing wall of product unsold. It hasn't changed by much as the rest of the industry is pushing it out of the way.
DEADZONE is pretty good looking in person, if you got in on that KS, your getting quite a haul of gear in there. I saw some of the stuff in the flesh. Some of the guys are crap, but overall, Mantic has a really good product there.
21.00 for 1 multipart plastic hero miniature in plastic sealed container, you can see what its supposed to be on one side, then see the parts of the shrinking hero's on the other. Figure is shrinking in scale.
45.00 for a three figure set. This case a couple of shootier looking ork artillery with 5 grots in there. The other example was a couple of Ork mega armor guys.
51.00 for a vehicle. 1 was the new RG 33/ 40k version. The other was a truck with a couple of boyz with it. (truck mob) Third was a FIST team with Chimera.
75.00 for a Landraider, Ork baby Stompa, or Demony skully-thing. ( Smaller then the transformer, bigger then a Dread.)
130.00 for the transformer/ night/ elder G.I.Joe walker. (Titan of sorts.)
200.00 was larger sets such as the IG trench line/ cannon, and Necron flying castle.
THEN there was the "Battleboard." I'll just go on and say that that will be sitting around for awhile. I didn't even think they made prices like that.
While I was there, two different people walked over to the wall, took one look at a box or two and just put it back without a word.
While that is happening, The FFG wall is growing, and that new rebel ship from the 1st Star Wars movie is as impressive as hell. Its friggin Huge....
There are several other games that are taking on more wall space, as well as quite a few more Clickies that are seriously taking on some of GW's ways and means. ( Boxed games, Scenario packs, Taking on the current Superhero craze, and the quickly upcoming Guardians stuff, JLA, and Avengers/ X men cross over stuff.
There is also a couple of new larger sized kits, as well as some larger game boxes such as the JLA Vs Legion of Doom thing going on...
GW's Fantasy line here is pretty much dead. A few older kits, smaller numbers of the newer stuff... that stuff is getting pushed over under the 40K side, which is pushing into it's old space.
On the RPG front, FFG is looking pretty darned good. I still think Only War is their best yet. Star Wars is ok, but some of that is a little disheartening, and I'm not seeing them lasting very long. AND D and D is back, with a whole new line of stuff...
I am within a cross hair of buying not only an OS Redbox, but the Advanced as well. ALONG with a couple of old school D and D books, that today I almost peed myself over. Used and used well, but available.
THEN there is the resurgence of Battletech. That is looking pretty darned sweet as well, and I just want to go on record and say that my little brother needs his hindquarters kicked in for what he did to my old set of the stuff. It was a pretty substantial collection that went to wherever.
Inquisitor Bob wrote: "We have no intention to acquire other companies, nor dispose of any of those we own."
** um... The decision to cease production of, and yet threaten litigation to any who attempt to resume the use of specialist games such as Space hulk, blood bowl, and very soon LotR/Hobbit can be directly defined as "disposing"***
That quote says that they're not intending to dispose of any subsidiary companies, not games.
"We return all our surplus cash to our owners and try to do so in ever increasing amounts. As a consequence it is probable the share price will rise. But we have no control over that. You do."
***This is either the biggest tugfest of spin-doctoring or further confirms my theory that the only shareholders of note are staff/director members***
You don't need to theorise. The major stockholders are a matter of public record. They're mostly professsional investment companies.
I stand corrected, in that case his rant was directed to.... Who?
Automatically Appended Next Post: My point is I don't understand his meaning when he says "we don't have control over the success of this company.. You do.."
How can shareholder firms control the dividends of GW exactly?
darefsky wrote: Question for Wayshuba. If GW were able to secure financing to restructure their business model would it make a difference? Or in your opinion is it too little to late regardless of what the do?
That would be one part of the equation. But unless the business model, management, and culture changes, it is simply going to be throwing good money after bad.
For example, when Steve Jobs first came back to Apple, he soon realized they were six months from death's doorstep. He quickly focused on getting financing in the form of a $150m investment from Microsoft. The rest, as they say, is history.
GW has some very serious structural issues. Outside investment (which they could raise by selling more stock into the market), would prolong the agony, but it won't fix a terribly run business.
I'm of the opinion that Apple are about to go the same way they did in the 80s/90s due to once again going down the exclusive/non compatible route they went before. It just seems to be a similar situation, marketing can only take you so far.
darefsky wrote: Question for Wayshuba. If GW were able to secure financing to restructure their business model would it make a difference? Or in your opinion is it too little to late regardless of what the do?
That would be one part of the equation. But unless the business model, management, and culture changes, it is simply going to be throwing good money after bad.
For example, when Steve Jobs first came back to Apple, he soon realized they were six months from death's doorstep. He quickly focused on getting financing in the form of a $150m investment from Microsoft. The rest, as they say, is history.
GW has some very serious structural issues. Outside investment (which they could raise by selling more stock into the market), would prolong the agony, but it won't fix a terribly run business.
I'm of the opinion that Apple are about to go the same way they did in the 80s/90s due to once again going down the exclusive/non compatible route they went before. It just seems to be a similar situation, marketing can only take you so far.
I dont know about that. Apple has made giant inroads into the computer world, where they were once under 5% of total users they are closer to 20% now. People are making software for them and apps aplenty. Also add in the crazy amount of money that iTunes brings in and Apple is sitting pretty.
Now to tie this into the GW thread..... Apple has diversified dramatically from the days of the Macintosh. GW is in a world of hurt with essentially having only 1 product (40k)
IMHOGW needs to do a few things and do them fast.
1. Complete overhaul of their board
2. Release as many of the specialist games as they can (as a way to generate revenue) so that they can......
3. Survive long enough to create new core games....while
4. Revamping the flag ship that is 40k. Have an open beta like PP did for MKII (there was a "test" online you could apply for to see if you actually knew what the heck you were talking about when it came to helping them).
5. Make nice with the independants, like really nice.
6. Get someone who has a proven track record with scandle / image consulting to run your new and aggresive social media campaine.
Da Boss wrote: And it should be pointed out that PP have priced some people out too- I used to be a pretty contented customer of Privateer Press, but issues with the materials and the price have stopped me buying any new stuff in two years.
Yeah, that's a good point, a lot of people have pointed out that PP's models are just as expensive as GW's, which they essentially are. Also consider that by all accounts, PP and Warmahordes continue to grow. I would content GW would not have to actually lower prices if they put more effort into what they're actually producing; i.e. balanced codices, tight rules, and great sculpts. That's why, IMO, it's more of an argument for better value than better prices.
Not to derail this that much further. The difference as Wayne pointed out is that a $50 box is a one time purchase and thats really all you will ever need from that unit. The other BIG thing is PP has stated time and again that NO UNIT WILL EVER BE TAKEN OUT OF THE GAME. Meaning that the box of WGI was usable 10 years ago (during MK1) and will be usable in the future. Not on the whim of a new codex to get people to buy the new kits.....
PP has also lowered the price of every model/unit they have retooled from White Metal to Plastics, passing the material savings onto the customer.
GW I think has forgotten a lot from its early days.
Question for Wayshuba. If GW were able to secure financing to restructure their business model would it make a difference? Or in your opinion is it too little to late regardless of what the do?
You guys are also leaving out the elephant in the room: PP has shown time and time again that unlike GW they actually put a lot of time and effort into the rules and balance of their game, and in fact seem to have an opposite view of GW's "beer and pretzels" mentality (the infamous "Page 5"). I have seen that convince many people to switch over to warmahordes despite the similar pricing with GW...
How much of the money in sales that GW has lost have been given to Kickstarter projects instead?
If I look at my gaming monies... the amount that I spent on GW material six years ago is virtually identical to the amount that I have spent on Kickstarter and other crowdfunding sites. (Overall spending is up - I am just looking at the KS vs. GW here.)
Part of this is 'bang for my buck', and part is to support new material.
So... I have spent hundreds on Reaper Bones, More Reaper Bones, Mantic Kings of War, Stonehaven Dwarfs, Gnomes, Elves, and foldable terrain, Zombicide, Necromancer Games Pathfinder adventures, Raging Heroes Toughest Girls in the Galaxy, and HeroQuest.
And all of this is money that didn't go to GW.
Mind you, in my case I had the money because I had already stopped buying GW, but.....
The sad thing is that warmahordes is more beer and pretzels than 40k because it doesn't involve as much rules searching or guessing what the rule means.
Da Boss wrote: And it should be pointed out that PP have priced some people out too- I used to be a pretty contented customer of Privateer Press, but issues with the materials and the price have stopped me buying any new stuff in two years.
Yeah, that's a good point, a lot of people have pointed out that PP's models are just as expensive as GW's, which they essentially are. Also consider that by all accounts, PP and Warmahordes continue to grow. I would content GW would not have to actually lower prices if they put more effort into what they're actually producing; i.e. balanced codices, tight rules, and great sculpts. That's why, IMO, it's more of an argument for better value than better prices.
Not to derail this that much further. The difference as Wayne pointed out is that a $50 box is a one time purchase and thats really all you will ever need from that unit. The other BIG thing is PP has stated time and again that NO UNIT WILL EVER BE TAKEN OUT OF THE GAME. Meaning that the box of WGI was usable 10 years ago (during MK1) and will be usable in the future. Not on the whim of a new codex to get people to buy the new kits.....
PP has also lowered the price of every model/unit they have retooled from White Metal to Plastics, passing the material savings onto the customer.
GW I think has forgotten a lot from its early days.
Question for Wayshuba. If GW were able to secure financing to restructure their business model would it make a difference? Or in your opinion is it too little to late regardless of what the do?
You guys are also leaving out the elephant in the room: PP has shown time and time again that unlike GW they actually put a lot of time and effort into the rules and balance of their game, and in fact seem to have an opposite view of GW's "beer and pretzels" mentality (the infamous "Page 5"). I have seen that convince many people to switch over to warmahordes despite the similar pricing with GW...
I didn't bring it up because I honestly didn't think to. PP has extremely tight rules, and you can tell that they have a few technical writers on staff. They do things like play test for something like 2 years before releasing to the public. They also embrace the customers for feedback on products including their tournament rules. Hacksaw is a Press Ganger out of TN that is instrumental in creating the scenarios for their Steam Roller packets every year and they use their Press Gangers to test them out (by having tournaments and events prior to the release of the new SR for the year). They get direct feedback and adjust accordingly and surprisingly quickly.
I think the other strength they have is they use the same wording and the words mean the same thing across their rules. This is huge....when melee means melee and attack means attack its very easy to play the game RAW because that is all there is.
agnosto wrote: The sad thing is that warmahordes is more beer and pretzels than 40k because it doesn't involve as much rules searching or guessing what the rule means.
Agreed, I'm a "beer and pretzel" player, even though I think it's a terrible descriptor.
And I've started to hate 40k.. Building an army is good fun.. Sitting down to interpretation rules (formally known as gaming) is not, as such I long ago turned to bloodbowl as my only GW game till the time they sort there gak out.. Unfortunately they've given us no choice but to vote with our wallets.
On a personal point of discussion, I went to the local shops today and saw a few of the not price hikes. Instead of a shrinking wall of product being taken up by alternatives, there is an increasing wall of product unsold. It hasn't changed by much as the rest of the industry is pushing it out of the way.
DEADZONE is pretty good looking in person, if you got in on that KS, your getting quite a haul of gear in there. I saw some of the stuff in the flesh. Some of the guys are crap, but overall, Mantic has a really good product there.
21.00 for 1 multipart plastic hero miniature in plastic sealed container, you can see what its supposed to be on one side, then see the parts of the shrinking hero's on the other. Figure is shrinking in scale.
45.00 for a three figure set. This case a couple of shootier looking ork artillery with 5 grots in there. The other example was a couple of Ork mega armor guys.
51.00 for a vehicle. 1 was the new RG 33/ 40k version. The other was a truck with a couple of boyz with it. (truck mob) Third was a FIST team with Chimera.
75.00 for a Landraider, Ork baby Stompa, or Demony skully-thing. ( Smaller then the transformer, bigger then a Dread.)
130.00 for the transformer/ night/ elder G.I.Joe walker. (Titan of sorts.)
200.00 was larger sets such as the IG trench line/ cannon, and Necron flying castle.
THEN there was the "Battleboard." I'll just go on and say that that will be sitting around for awhile. I didn't even think they made prices like that.
While I was there, two different people walked over to the wall, took one look at a box or two and just put it back without a word.
While that is happening, The FFG wall is growing, and that new rebel ship from the 1st Star Wars movie is as impressive as hell. Its friggin Huge....
There are several other games that are taking on more wall space, as well as quite a few more Clickies that are seriously taking on some of GW's ways and means. ( Boxed games, Scenario packs, Taking on the current Superhero craze, and the quickly upcoming Guardians stuff, JLA, and Avengers/ X men cross over stuff.
There is also a couple of new larger sized kits, as well as some larger game boxes such as the JLA Vs Legion of Doom thing going on...
GW's Fantasy line here is pretty much dead. A few older kits, smaller numbers of the newer stuff... that stuff is getting pushed over under the 40K side, which is pushing into it's old space.
On the RPG front, FFG is looking pretty darned good. I still think Only War is their best yet. Star Wars is ok, but some of that is a little disheartening, and I'm not seeing them lasting very long. AND D and D is back, with a whole new line of stuff...
I am within a cross hair of buying not only an OS Redbox, but the Advanced as well. ALONG with a couple of old school D and D books, that today I almost peed myself over. Used and used well, but available.
THEN there is the resurgence of Battletech. That is looking pretty darned sweet as well, and I just want to go on record and say that my little brother needs his hindquarters kicked in for what he did to my old set of the stuff. It was a pretty substantial collection that went to wherever.
How much of the money in sales that GW has lost have been given to Kickstarter projects instead?
If I look at my gaming monies... the amount that I spent on GW material six years ago is virtually identical to the amount that I have spent on Kickstarter and other crowdfunding sites. (Overall spending is up - I am just looking at the KS vs. GW here.)
Part of this is 'bang for my buck', and part is to support new material.
So... I have spent hundreds on Reaper Bones, More Reaper Bones, Mantic Kings of War, Stonehaven Dwarfs, Gnomes, Elves, and foldable terrain, Zombicide, Necromancer Games Pathfinder adventures, Raging Heroes Toughest Girls in the Galaxy, and HeroQuest.
And all of this is money that didn't go to GW.
Mind you, in my case I had the money because I had already stopped buying GW, but.....
The Auld Grump
I've been working full time for a bit over a year now. In that time I've spent ten times as much on the hobby than any previous years (I'm actually a little worried that no one else is worried about how much I'm spending) but GW are getting less than they used to when I was just throwing birthday and Christmas money at them 5 years ago.
agnosto wrote: The sad thing is that warmahordes is more beer and pretzels than 40k because it doesn't involve as much rules searching or guessing what the rule means.
Agreed, I'm a "beer and pretzel" player, even though I think it's a terrible descriptor.
And I've started to hate 40k.. Building an army is good fun.. Sitting down to interpretation rules (formally known as gaming) is not, as such I long ago turned to bloodbowl as my only GW game till the time they sort there gak out.. Unfortunately they've given us no choice but to vote with our wallets.
That's where I'm at as well. I enjoy putting models together and even painting to a lesser extent but played a couple of games of 7th and wanted to pull my hair out during each psychic phase. Each turn lasted so long that I just lost interest. Other games that I play more aptly meet the "beer and pretzels" moniker (WarmaHordes, Mantic's offerings, board games).
Azreal13 wrote: Quoting massive blocks of text for one, short, sentence, is bad forum etiquette, god (aka Legoburner) invented spoiler tags for a reason.
Thanks I'll keep that in mind.
Unfortunately my device doesn't like most functions of the interwebs so some things don't work as they should.
I always liked inquisitor, never understood why it was 54mm, if they used just 28mm and a necromunda like xp and campaign system, it could have been the perfect game to lure in new customers that used miniatures from their 40k/Warhammer lines.
But nooo, sales are down just sale more of the same!
agnosto wrote: The sad thing is that warmahordes is more beer and pretzels than 40k because it doesn't involve as much rules searching or guessing what the rule means.
Agreed, I'm a "beer and pretzel" player, even though I think it's a terrible descriptor.
And I've started to hate 40k.. Building an army is good fun.. Sitting down to interpretation rules (formally known as gaming) is not, as such I long ago turned to bloodbowl as my only GW game till the time they sort there gak out.. Unfortunately they've given us no choice but to vote with our wallets.
That's where I'm at as well. I enjoy putting models together and even painting to a lesser extent but played a couple of games of 7th and wanted to pull my hair out during each psychic phase. Each turn lasted so long that I just lost interest. Other games that I play more aptly meet the "beer and pretzels" moniker (WarmaHordes, Mantic's offerings, board games).
Adding complexity does not make the game better.
Adding extraneous and frivolous additions to models does not make the hobby better.
Adding on additional price hikes only speaks of entrenchment.
GW is a game hobby company that finds itself fighting inevitability. Once a company reaches a certain level of growth that halts, it usually retrenches. GW has been in that mode for quite some time.
agnosto wrote: The sad thing is that warmahordes is more beer and pretzels than 40k because it doesn't involve as much rules searching or guessing what the rule means.
Agreed, I'm a "beer and pretzel" player, even though I think it's a terrible descriptor.
And I've started to hate 40k.. Building an army is good fun.. Sitting down to interpretation rules (formally known as gaming) is not, as such I long ago turned to bloodbowl as my only GW game till the time they sort there gak out.. Unfortunately they've given us no choice but to vote with our wallets.
That's where I'm at as well. I enjoy putting models together and even painting to a lesser extent but played a couple of games of 7th and wanted to pull my hair out during each psychic phase. Each turn lasted so long that I just lost interest. Other games that I play more aptly meet the "beer and pretzels" moniker (WarmaHordes, Mantic's offerings, board games).
Adding complexity does not make the game better.
Adding extraneous and frivolous additions to models does not make the hobby better.
Adding on additional price hikes only speaks of entrenchment.
GW is a game hobby company that finds itself fighting inevitability. Once a company reaches a certain level of growth that halts, it usually retrenches. GW has been in that mode for quite some time.
Adding Depth to a game system works.
I mean their systems were quite good and exemplary until around 2009 or so. (after 5th edition)
Much, much too complicated. I love 40k and couldn't care less about Star Wars, and yet these days I play X-wing, because I can have a good time in 30 minutes.
I'll take as much complexity in a game as can be shoe-horned into it.
40K is complicated.
Spoiler:
Anyway. I think gw needs to learn from game designers.....
Also Video Games are basically board games on a computer.
Think about it.
Great video! Extra Credits does some great stuff. Yes, depth is great, no complexity is not. As they say, you want the most depth with the least complexity - Dreadball, Deadzone, X-Wing, DZC for example (in my experience, others like warmahordes too that I know less about) all do this so much better than 40k and not only makes them great games, it makes them better "beer and pretzels" games if you like to use that term because of the greater depth to complexity ratio. The Paradox games they mention in the video I have hundreds of hours logged in, I'm no stranger to complexity, but it has to come with a related amount of depth to justify it and 40k just doesn't. Also yeah I'm a fan of using video games for reference points, especially SC2 for balance comparisons ; p
WarOne wrote: You can have a complex game without it being complicated, but they've taken inane additions to a whole 'nother level.
For Space Wolves, aren't they adding a bypasses eternal warrior rule? 1. High power weapons insta kill heroes thanks to the "double str insta kills" rule they added. 2. Heroes get eternal warrior rule to counter high power weapons additional rule. 3. High power weapons get a new rule to bypass the hero rule, allowing them to once again insta kill heroes. /facepalm
That was probably to replace jaws which they took away from us for no good reason other than because it made SW more than a mediocre army.
I do agree about the game being too complex now with rules that counteract each other and sometimes the way they're worded makes it difficult to figure out which rule wins. However, I do like the psychic phase. My only change would be not letting units summoned via psychic powers to turn around and summon other units. Also limiting psychic dice would help as I might as well not even have psychic powers if the opposing player has 20+ dispel dice and I can only cast 2-3 powers a turn.
Modifiers are bad because the 8 year olds that are the target audience are bad at math.
Solution. An AP system that makes no sense. A cover system that makes no sense. A wound allocation system that makes no sense.
1st edition was difficult at times because the rules were put together poorly, but they made sense, and for the most part they were intuitive. Later editions tried to streamline the game by making it more abstract, but it makes the game counter intuitive and thus overly complex....for simplicities sake.(?)
Now its too the point where they are trying to get you to play epic with full scale miniatures, the rules as they exist are just too abstract and counter intuitive.
That's where I'm at as well. I enjoy putting models together and even painting to a lesser extent but played a couple of games of 7th and wanted to pull my hair out during each psychic phase. Each turn lasted so long that I just lost interest.
In my experience, Psychic phase actually saves time compared to old system, at least for armies which have lots of psychers. It was hella-annoying in the old system to try to remember which psychic power went off in which phase, and some armies had just insane amount of them (Daemons, most notably).
Backfire wrote: In my experience, Psychic phase actually saves time compared to old system, at least for armies which have lots of psychers. It was hella-annoying in the old system to try to remember which psychic power went off in which phase, and some armies had just insane amount of them (Daemons, most notably).
Yeah, the new system certainly saves time, by having psychic rules that just stop functioning the moment a psyker joins another unit...
Don't daemons have the longest psychic phase now due to all the record keeping with every model being a psyker, rolling for powers etc. with new ones being summoned frequantly?
Yonan wrote: Don't daemons have the longest psychic phase now due to all the record keeping with every model being a psyker, rolling for powers etc. with new ones being summoned frequantly?
Right.
The psychic phase can become rather lengthy. I can see no time saving here.
I'm no accountant or finance major, so this is an actual question: could Kirby be driving GW into the ground on purpose? Developing an environment of "yes-men", funneling money to his wife, shoring up his position before scooting out on a golden parachute just before collapse? The tone he takes on in his addresses seem to indicate that nothing is wrong, that everything is going as planned. With the numbers showing what they are, perhaps they are going as planned, for his personal gain?
He owns 7% of the company and driving it into the ground is worth far, far less to him than he could get if he simply announced his retirement and started selling his stock. Or got the board to agree to buy-back his stock rather than paying a dividend.
frozenwastes wrote: He owns 7% of the company and driving it into the ground is worth far, far less to him than he could get if he simply announced his retirement and started selling his stock. Or got the board to agree to buy-back his stock rather than paying a dividend.
Guess I was thinking that if he was working GW into a position where it could be reasonably bought out, he might stand to make out well from that. But an under-performing company is probably less attractive than their IP. Just let them collapse and loot their corpse, so to speak.
Anyone can still buy old LOTR miniatures from GW (they're still cheaper than Hobbit minis, or most WHFB minis) and play the game. They just don't want to. The game went derelict long before Hobbit and it's prices (which may not have been entirely GW's fault anyway) so it can't be pinned on that.
In fact, LOTR seems to perfectly conform to wishes people often make from GW mainline games:
-reasonably priced
-no silly cartoony models
-no constant power creep
-fresh ruleset with no legacy junk
Yet it no longer sells. I don't know anyone who has an army or plays the game. What gives?
For one thing, they doubled the price of basic units - first by halving the number of models in a box, and dropping the price by about 25%. Then by later raising the price by 25%. They also did similar shenigans with metal characters before finecast. Going from foot & mounted versions of characters, to splitting them for much, much more. You get the idea - all the usual pricing shenanigans.
frozenwastes wrote: He owns 7% of the company and driving it into the ground is worth far, far less to him than he could get if he simply announced his retirement and started selling his stock. Or got the board to agree to buy-back his stock rather than paying a dividend.
Guess I was thinking that if he was working GW into a position where it could be reasonably bought out, he might stand to make out well from that. But an under-performing company is probably less attractive than their IP. Just let them collapse and loot their corpse, so to speak.
Why.... why yes he is!!! And hearing about his wife allegedly being part of the IT department man.... to me it's like this.... "Sweet jeezbus honey our cash cow looks mighty peeked.... Let's have some steak yeaaaahaaaa!!!!. We have our golden ticket already when we bought most of our stock at outrageous bargains as part of my service package several years ago!!! wooooweeewooo we are so stinking rich and guess what???? We are going be even richer.
Yonan wrote: Don't daemons have the longest psychic phase now due to all the record keeping with every model being a psyker, rolling for powers etc. with new ones being summoned frequantly?
Yes, but previously, they did all the same stuff, it was just sprinkled around the player turn and you had to remember what to do in which phase and which units had already casted stuff. Now, at least it's all in the same phase. Much more convenient IMO. I very much hated 6th edition Psychic powers. It was incredibly laborous as soon as you had multiple Psykers.
In fact I strongly dislike how preminent Psychic powers have become in the game. It used to be that Psykers had relatively limited powers and even powerful Psykers usually could not cast more than one power per turn. During 5th edition Space magic began to run rampant in power creep (starting with Psyker Battle squad and Space wolf codex) and it was downhill from there.
Anyone can still buy old LOTR miniatures from GW (they're still cheaper than Hobbit minis, or most WHFB minis) and play the game. They just don't want to. The game went derelict long before Hobbit and it's prices (which may not have been entirely GW's fault anyway) so it can't be pinned on that.
In fact, LOTR seems to perfectly conform to wishes people often make from GW mainline games:
-reasonably priced
-no silly cartoony models
-no constant power creep
-fresh ruleset with no legacy junk
Yet it no longer sells. I don't know anyone who has an army or plays the game. What gives?
For one thing, they doubled the price of basic units - first by halving the number of models in a box, and dropping the price by about 25%. Then by later raising the price by 25%. They also did similar shenigans with metal characters before finecast. Going from foot & mounted versions of characters, to splitting them for much, much more. You get the idea - all the usual pricing shenanigans.
Yeah, but that was only after the game was already in terminal decline. In fact even today LOTR is much cheaper to play than WHFB.
On the agenda for the next annual meeting is a request to the board for the option to buy back 4 million shares or so of stock. I'm not saying it'll be Kirby's stock. Or that they'll even exercise this right. But they are asking their general share holders to vote for them to be able to do it if they want.
So it's possible when Kirby decides to sell, the board will buy his shares directly rather than have 7% of the shares go onto the exchange and tank the share price.
If you want to get into tinfoil hat conspiracy land, it's also possible that the new CEO position will be filled by someone with the right attitude to assure Kirby gets out with as much in his pockets as possible. Someone they can hire for being a good fit with the buyback plan who will vote Kirby's way on the matter. But that's crazy conspiracy talk.
frozenwastes wrote: On the agenda for the next annual meeting is a request to the board for the option to buy back 4 million shares or so of stock.
Really? That is very curious. Usually stock buyback is limited to companies who have loads of cash and don't know what to do with it (like Apple), so they buy back stock to drive stock price up. Doesn't feel like GW is in a position for such excess.
Backfire wrote: Yeah, but that was only after the game was already in terminal decline. In fact even today LOTR is much cheaper to play than WHFB.
That's what happens when you take a system where it is written in a way that encourages units of 50+, then all units are released in expensive boxes of 10, then the points cost are dropped so people need to buy 4-5 of said units. Then compare it to a skirmish game.
slowthar wrote: [
Have you not noticed that the price of the core rules jumped $10 (which makes it a $35 increase in about 2 years time from 5th), codices are being split into multiple ones and sold for the same price, and DLC that could've been part of books that have just been released is instead being posted at nearly the same time to fleece buyers for even more money?
Rulebook price jumped, but at least the new 3-book format is much more convenient than the old, huge, tome. Codices are not really being split: you can still play Iyanden or Iron Hands with basic Eldar or Space Marine codex, just like in the past. Supplements are just (quite overpriced) additions to the main codex.
Inquisitor Bob wrote: "We have no intention to acquire other companies, nor dispose of any of those we own."
** um... The decision to cease production of, and yet threaten litigation to any who attempt to resume the use of specialist games such as Space hulk, blood bowl, and very soon LotR/Hobbit can be directly defined as "disposing"***
That quote says that they're not intending to dispose of any subsidiary companies, not games.
I would hope not, because the only 2 subsidiaries they have (Black Library and Forge World) are the only parts of the company actually doing well. Them not wishing to acquire other companies is unfortunate though, there's plenty of skill they could inherit, admittedly a lot of it from ex-GW staff in the first place.
Considering they are mainly selling to a declining veteran customer base, they have in fact been consistently increasing prices on newer releases.
Scions were a 70% price increase over the previous Kaskrin boxed set.
True, OTOH the new kit has weapons and other options which you would have to buy as separate models previously. Also, not everything increased: new plastic Ogryns are much cheaper than the old ones.
Yup the Ogryns dropped by 30% going from metal -> plastic, even though they are now in packs of 3. As I don't have the new book I don't know what the squad sizes were, but I used to run 5 of them, so I'd have to have bought a spare one.
I wonder how much the transition saved GW? ignoring design costs (since the old metals will have already been paid off), a plastic sprue much cost under 10% of a metal mini to produce?
Edit: I'd love a mini rulebook, but until I can get it on it's own for a reasonable price, I'm not going to bother.
Wolfstan wrote: Slightly OT, but in the spirit of what has been mentioned. Corvis Bell have announced a, what appears to be, a intro box set for Infinity.
Hows that for an intro game?
And that is a great example of why it price per model is not the be all- end all for wargames. £66 with discount for 15 models (one being a pre order special) isnt cheap, however, those 14 models make up two, 200 point forces (with a few options) in a game where the tournament standard is 300 points. For an extra £30 per force you can have two , tournament ready forces for a total outlay of around £120. All rules are free, no extra expense.
If I buy Dark Vengeance, it costs me an extra £60 just for the rules to play the included models in a game of 40K, and that is before the several hundred pounds needed to expand them to sizable forces.
That is the cost differential right there, not the per model price comparisons.
Kilkrazy wrote: Lots of people, myself included, welcome a smaller, more convenient rulebook without the unnecessary baggage of the fluff and artwork.
To get it though we are expected to pay a lot more than before, and essentially throw away two books that are useless to us. So we haven't bought it.
There is part of GW's problem.
There was "Gamers edition" rulebook in 6th edition, which was (slightly) cheaper than the core rulebook. I expect that eventually, GW will release one for 7th edition as well. Just not yet - if they release it now, it will eat sales of big rulebook. and also potentially starter sets, since the small rulebook is big motivation for many people to buy those. Gotta squeeze everything out.
Herzlos wrote: Yup the Ogryns dropped by 30% going from metal -> plastic, even though they are now in packs of 3. As I don't have the new book I don't know what the squad sizes were, but I used to run 5 of them, so I'd have to have bought a spare one.
I wonder how much the transition saved GW? ignoring design costs (since the old metals will have already been paid off), a plastic sprue much cost under 10% of a metal mini to produce?
Edit: I'd love a mini rulebook, but until I can get it on it's own for a reasonable price, I'm not going to bother.
The set up cost for plastic is a lot more than for metal. It is the run on costs that are reduced. Consequently injection plastic works for large numbers of production.
Part of GW's problem now is that with sales volume dropping, their fixed cost base for their factory is in danger of becoming a liability.
Kilkrazy wrote: Lots of people, myself included, welcome a smaller, more convenient rulebook without the unnecessary baggage of the fluff and artwork.
To get it though we are expected to pay a lot more than before, and essentially throw away two books that are useless to us. So we haven't bought it.
There is part of GW's problem.
There was "Gamers edition" rulebook in 6th edition, which was (slightly) cheaper than the core rulebook. I expect that eventually, GW will release one for 7th edition as well. Just not yet - if they release it now, it will eat sales of big rulebook. and also potentially starter sets, since the small rulebook is big motivation for many people to buy those. Gotta squeeze everything out.
The "Gamer's Edition" was £30, compared to £30 for the complete 5th edition or £45 for the complete 6th edition.
Personally I thought that was a bit of a gouge. However by the time it was released I already had a softback out of Dark Vengeance so I did not need it. I don't know if I would have paid £30 for it if it had been available from day 1 of 6th edition. I feel that £20 would be a fairer price.
I believe it is a serious mistake to make the rules so expensive. Inevitably it reduces the number of people who will pick up the game, and this must have a knock-on effect to the Codex and model kit sales.
If GW is so focused on the churn rate and always needing to get new customers, a mini rulebook is the obvious way to go. Or in fact a free rule booklet, that has a very basic set of rules. Kinda like the quick play with X Wing.
It would mean little Johnny has models and he can game with them. If little Johnny or Janie stick with it it they can upgrade to a nice big fluff filled rulebook.
The set up cost for plastic is a lot more than for metal. It is the run on costs that are reduced. Consequently injection plastic works for large numbers of production.
Part of GW's problem now is that with sales volume dropping, their fixed cost base for their factory is in danger of becoming a liability.
Definitely, but the cost of the injection mould is rapidly reducing; what used to cost £100k to do would now be under £10k, it's still a lot of money if they aren't expecting the volume though.
The "Gamer's Edition" was £30, compared to £30 for the complete 5th edition or £45 for the complete 6th edition.
Personally I thought that was a bit of a gouge. However by the time it was released I already had a softback out of Dark Vengeance so I did not need it. I don't know if I would have paid £30 for it if it had been available from day 1 of 6th edition. I feel that £20 would be a fairer price.
I believe it is a serious mistake to make the rules so expensive. Inevitably it reduces the number of people who will pick up the game, and this must have a knock-on effect to the Codex and model kit sales.
I was in the same boat; by the time the Gamers Edition came out I already had the DV book which I found preferable being a softcover. I don't think I'd have paid £30 for the hardback either, since the softback was floating about on eBay for half of that, but if it was available somewhere close to launch, I'd have happily paid £15-20 for it.
Kilkrazy wrote: Lots of people, myself included, welcome a smaller, more convenient rulebook without the unnecessary baggage of the fluff and artwork.
To get it though we are expected to pay a lot more than before, and essentially throw away two books that are useless to us. So we haven't bought it.
There is part of GW's problem.
There was "Gamers edition" rulebook in 6th edition, which was (slightly) cheaper than the core rulebook. I expect that eventually, GW will release one for 7th edition as well. Just not yet - if they release it now, it will eat sales of big rulebook. and also potentially starter sets, since the small rulebook is big motivation for many people to buy those. Gotta squeeze everything out.
The "Gamer's Edition" was £30, compared to £30 for the complete 5th edition or £45 for the complete 6th edition.
Personally I thought that was a bit of a gouge. However by the time it was released I already had a softback out of Dark Vengeance so I did not need it. I don't know if I would have paid £30 for it if it had been available from day 1 of 6th edition. I feel that £20 would be a fairer price.
I believe it is a serious mistake to make the rules so expensive. Inevitably it reduces the number of people who will pick up the game, and this must have a knock-on effect to the Codex and model kit sales.
This is all too true.
If you've ever bought a 40K rulebook, you already know all the main fluff, which is never going to change to any meaningful extent (just to take the most recent example, in the recent threads on the "Enter the Citadel" event I think it was Phil Kelly who was quoted as saying that the story will never progress). Meanwhile, as for a third book containing photos of miniatures...they put pictures like that in all their books at the drop of a hat. On the one hand, being able to take the rules separately looks convenient, but that means two thirds of my purchase is going to be spending a lot of time on a shelf.
Fortunately, the paperback rulebooks should be easier to find now. But if I bought the rules as sold by GW I'd end up with two huge books which are neither use nor ornament to me. The thought that this edition might have the same lifespan of 6th makes me even more wary of buying.
To touch on the cost of plastic moulds. It certainly is a lot cheaper now to make a mould than it used to be, however there is the whole infrastructure of designers, CAD technicians, a factory, moulding machinery and so on, that have to be maintained whether you press any kits or not.
Sigvatr wrote: The entire fluff part of any publication is entirely worthless because of the internet and online wikis containing all information you will ever need.
And I didn't even think of this. But again, it's very true, especially for this setting .
Sigvatr wrote: The entire fluff part of any publication is entirely worthless because of the internet and online wikis containing all information you will ever need.
And the 1/3 of a book taken up with pictures of models is worthless because there are more, better, free model pictures in the dakka gallery.
Though, I can't fault GW from promoting visuality of its games, which has always been their strong point. You have to remember the "wow!" factor new players have when they handle big, pretty book. A sterile rulebook and bunch of pictures in the internet just ain't the same.
Bigger issue than the core rulebook is IMO cost of the codices. A new player can still get a good deal with rulebook & minis from starter set, or campaign sets like Storm claw, if more come (and why would there not?). However, the cost of the codices is just too intimidating nowadays, and it's hurting both veterans and new players alike. And the supplements, whilst not necessary, are even more insanely priced, given their meagre functional content.
Maybe GW could do "Start a new army!" promotional days, where you buy a Battleforce or some other bundle, and get a Codex for free. Or put functional mini-codices in Battle forces (or Strike forces or whatever they are called now). Just something to make the starting look less indimidating. Once you hook them up, it's easier to get them pay €40 for five miniatures to complete their Elite slot...
In the good old days GW did boxed sets like this. Then there was the Battleforce sets in 00's. At one time they did make the effort, obviously the bean counters stopped this.
Backfire wrote: Though, I can't fault GW from promoting visuality of its games, which has always been their strong point. You have to remember the "wow!" factor new players have when they handle big, pretty book. A sterile rulebook and bunch of pictures in the internet just ain't the same.
Bigger issue than the core rulebook is IMO cost of the codices. A new player can still get a good deal with rulebook & minis from starter set, or campaign sets like Storm claw, if more come (and why would there not?). However, the cost of the codices is just too intimidating nowadays, and it's hurting both veterans and new players alike. And the supplements, whilst not necessary, are even more insanely priced, given their meagre functional content.
Maybe GW could do "Start a new army!" promotional days, where you buy a Battleforce or some other bundle, and get a Codex for free. Or put functional mini-codices in Battle forces (or Strike forces or whatever they are called now). Just something to make the starting look less indimidating. Once you hook them up, it's easier to get them pay €40 for five miniatures to complete their Elite slot...
That is true. That is why there should be two versions -- the big full colour version (expensive) and the rules only version (cheap) for veterans who just need updated rules.
Both the core rules and codexes, and any supplementary books (Apocalypse) should be presented like this.
I'll take as much complexity in a game as can be shoe-horned into it.
40K is complicated.
Spoiler:
Anyway. I think gw needs to learn from game designers.....
Also Video Games are basically board games on a computer.
Think about it.
I think you guys (and the guy in the vid) are saying the same thing, just with different definitions of complexity.
I've heard and agreed with the 'complexity vs. complication' argument myself, with regards to Epic: Armageddon vs. 40K, via Ben Skinner of Troublemaker Games. E:A is a relatively simple game, with shorter statlines, few if any tables to look up (IIRC there's one for barrages), a couple of pages of universal special rules that satisfy most armies or list choices; but the simple rules provide a lot of complexity (what Asherian is quite rightly calling depth) in how your formations interact, manoeuvre, and set up for assaults. (Jervis' intro in the book goes into it a bit more; I wonder if it can still be read in the NetEA download) 40K is a complicated (or if you prefer, complex) game, chock full of tables, granular options, and special rules for individual unit types and characters; but once you get past the strategic listbuilding part, there's not much intuitive tactical depth or complexity to it. Sure you can apply some, but the game largely plays itself, running your painstakingly picked choices along move-shoot-assault rails. With plenty of stops every minute or so to check and resolve a special rule.
And then there's the train of thought (heard from the same guy) that it's purposely designed to be like that, to appeal to the young-to-mid teen target demographic. All them tables must seem terribly grown up, and the special rules really badass, and memorising both in order to win kinda fulfilling - at that info-absorbing life stage, and like studying Top Trumps stats, I guess... Not to mention less taxing than abstract tactical reasoning on the actual tabletop, RE: the pace of play bit in the vid.
On the flipside, Jervis has mentioned that E:A was intended for the more experienced (i.e. older) gamer, and all that implies about both games. So if you've been playing 40K for a couple of editions and the 7th ed psychic phase is making you tear your hair out, I'd say that, yeah, it's probably gotten worse (Unbound? Whut?), and the 'change is bad' thing might be in play, but also you've possibly just grown beyond the game.
7th is a really solid edition of the game, but still, like 5th (the last solid edition), it only really works between around 1500 and 2500 points, at a stretch. And you have to either bring in official rulings for balance about how many detachments/formations/etc. are allowed, or you have to use soft scores or similar.
It *needs* a half-decent skirmish game too, for those smaller games.
I do agree with other posters that GW's biggest problem right now is likely to be people not buying codices. The price jump is too huge, without a significant jump in value. Hardcover is nice but not worth twice as much as softcover. And when the default is "you need to buy two codices and a couple of dataslates and some new cards and tokens to get the most out of your army... and the same for any allied armies..." Whut? Most of us buy GW stuff because we want to model, paint, and/or play games with the minis. Anyone who only does painting or modelling doesn't need codices anyway (but will probably pick them up, if reasonably priced, for the fluff and the pics of painted minis). Anyone who wants to play, is *actively put off* at the thought of having to spend over £100 on rulebooks to stay vaguely competitive.
Well, I think that GW doesn't really understand the cost issue (rulebook + codex make 99 €) since they do no market research which would include interviewing customers (players). They obviously think that all is well here. The revenue eventually says the opposite but one may deduce that the lower revenue has other reasons such as the restructuring process.
What is positive is that they have tighened the codex re-release which is another issues they touched. But then they provide codex supplements which increase the costs even more if you want to be up-to-date.
The player basis is shrinking and players buy less now. Two serious issues they are eventually not really aware of.
Basically Games Workshop are trying to do too much in one rule set. It is falling apart under the strain, and the expense and complexity are turning players away.
The game should be divided into several sections that players can mix and match to get the level of game they want.
1. A detailed low figure count skirmish like 1st/2nd edition/ Necromunda. This will cater for lots of detail and a "Herohammer" style of play.
2. A "mass skirmish" game like 3rd/4th/5th edition 40K. This needs to be simpler than 6th/7th edition which have got too many special rules and complications (Psychic Phase, etc)
3. Optional supplements like Apocalypse, PlanetStrike and Cities of Death that introduce advanced rules for special types of battles or super large battles. The Psychic Phase could be put in here, also things like Command and Control tactics, and optional variant turn sequences, that add interest but aren't to everyone's taste.
4. There should also be a starter ruleset that introduces new players to core concepts that carry forward into both the skirmish and the mass skirmish rules.
Secondly, GW need to accept that you cannot sustain a £100 Million business indefinitely by making modest changes to one game (40K.) It is ridiculous to expect players to pay £100s every couple of years to buy revised rules when they never really get better, just different. Therefore;
1. "Fix" 40K. Get the rules and armies reasonably balanced by a combination of play testing, computer testing and beta testing by end users. We don't expect perfection, but we do expect not to see the kind of howling schoolboy errors that get put into every book at the moment.
2. Once "fixed", stop making new editions. Instead, make supplements, campaign packs, and new factions. These will allow the introduction of new models without messing up the core game.
3. I would also bring back Epic or something similar as a genuine mass battle game, and as I have said in an earlier post, I think GW need to be making some other games.
tyrannosaurus wrote: I'm all over that Infinity starter pack - now just need to convince my mates to play...
I reckon I could sell it to non-TT gaming mates as "Oh hey, remember Mass Effect? This is that - a squad based cover shooter but with little dudes! PEW PEW"
Ian Sturrock wrote: 7th is a really solid edition of the game, but still, like 5th (the last solid edition), it only really works between around 1500 and 2500 points, at a stretch. And you have to either bring in official rulings for balance about how many detachments/formations/etc. are allowed, or you have to use soft scores or similar.
It *needs* a half-decent skirmish game too, for those smaller games.
I do agree with other posters that GW's biggest problem right now is likely to be people not buying codices. The price jump is too huge, without a significant jump in value. Hardcover is nice but not worth twice as much as softcover. And when the default is "you need to buy two codices and a couple of dataslates and some new cards and tokens to get the most out of your army... and the same for any allied armies..." Whut? Most of us buy GW stuff because we want to model, paint, and/or play games with the minis. Anyone who only does painting or modelling doesn't need codices anyway (but will probably pick them up, if reasonably priced, for the fluff and the pics of painted minis). Anyone who wants to play, is *actively put off* at the thought of having to spend over £100 on rulebooks to stay vaguely competitive.
The codex problem becomes worse now because at that price point you can get the core rules for many game systems, or even the X-Wing starter set. It makes it a very bad comparison.
1. A detailed low figure count skirmish like 1st/2nd edition/ Necromunda. This will cater for lots of detail and a "Herohammer" style of play.
They could simply release a "Kill Team" book with high detail for things like levelling up, and rules to use the existing 40K factions, thus having 100% compatibility with current models. If they stuck to small boards, emphasis on terrain and structures, and strict points costs and list-building rules games could easily be prevented from ballooning beyond skirmish level (i.e. no Riptides showing up). I think, though I'm not sure, that this is what the fan-made "In the Emperor's Name" is all about.
A smaller game would be appealing to old-timers and also act as a good "gateway game" while being able to support regular supplements if necessary.
Ian Sturrock wrote: 7th is a really solid edition of the game, but still, like 5th (the last solid edition), it only really works between around 1500 and 2500 points, at a stretch. And you have to either bring in official rulings for balance about how many detachments/formations/etc. are allowed, or you have to use soft scores or similar.
It *needs* a half-decent skirmish game too, for those smaller games.
I do agree with other posters that GW's biggest problem right now is likely to be people not buying codices. The price jump is too huge, without a significant jump in value. Hardcover is nice but not worth twice as much as softcover. And when the default is "you need to buy two codices and a couple of dataslates and some new cards and tokens to get the most out of your army... and the same for any allied armies..." Whut? Most of us buy GW stuff because we want to model, paint, and/or play games with the minis. Anyone who only does painting or modelling doesn't need codices anyway (but will probably pick them up, if reasonably priced, for the fluff and the pics of painted minis). Anyone who wants to play, is *actively put off* at the thought of having to spend over £100 on rulebooks to stay vaguely competitive.
The codex problem becomes worse now because at that price point you can get the core rules for many game systems, or even the X-Wing starter set. It makes it a very bad comparison.
Quite. For half what the Tyranid codex cost me I just bought Malifaux 2nd edition. Throw in a cheap Arsenal deck and I got my 'codex' too. For 2/3 of the price I could buy the core rules for Infinity if I really wanted the hardback rulebook (I do).
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?"
Anyway, back OT
Star Wars could have saved GW. I'm looking at that X-wing game and thinking, why didn't GW do that?
Sure, they might have lost a bit cash for the license rights, but with their technical expertise, established brand name, and high street presence, it could have been the start of a beautiful collaboration.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: "Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?"
Anyway, back OT
Star Wars could have saved GW. I'm looking at that X-wing game and thinking, why didn't GW do that?
Sure, they might have lost a bit cash for the license rights, but with their technical expertise, established brand name, and high street presence, it could have been the start of a beautiful collaboration.
Bloody hell man!
'The Emperor'
'Storm Troopers'
'Galactic'
'Empire'
'Space'
'Wars'
'Plasma'
'Lasers'
'Ships'
'Imperial Fleet'.........
A space ship game?
No, just no, wayyy to close to GW's original and not inspired by anything ever universe.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: "Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?"
Anyway, back OT
Star Wars could have saved GW. I'm looking at that X-wing game and thinking, why didn't GW do that?
Sure, they might have lost a bit cash for the license rights, but with their technical expertise, established brand name, and high street presence, it could have been the start of a beautiful collaboration.
GW has demonstrated with the Hobbit that they no longer have the knowledge necessary to turn such a partnership profitable.
More that a few suggested bringing back box games like Necromunda, BFG, Mordheim, etc. I'm thinking there may be more going on that just having the will to bring back discontinued games. What if the molds are worn or need re-tooling? What if the molds have been damaged or destroyed since they discontinued the games? What if their move away from metal soured the relationship with suppliers and they can no longer get the amounts they need at a reasonable price or in the quantities required?
If they are going to bring games back from the dead, how about WH Historicals? Try to capitalize on the growing historical base and print more books. I'm sure it wouldn't cost too much to clean them up a bit and do a few print runs. The historical line won’t save the company, but it should generate some income.
2112 wrote: A few random thoughts to add to the conversation:
More that a few suggested bringing back box games like Necromunda, BFG, Mordheim, etc. I'm thinking there may be more going on that just having the will to bring back discontinued games. What if the molds are worn or need re-tooling? What if the molds have been damaged or destroyed since they discontinued the games? What if their move away from metal soured the relationship with suppliers and they can no longer get the amounts they need at a reasonable price or in the quantities required?
If they are going to bring games back from the dead, how about WH Historicals? Try to capitalize on the growing historical base and print more books. I'm sure it wouldn't cost too much to clean them up a bit and do a few print runs. The historical line won’t save the company, but it should generate
some income.
I would suggest spiritual successors to both Mordheim and Necromunda. Use existing Fantasy/40k kits. Utilize them as gateways to the larger games.
They won't touch the historical ranges; they don't have any mini's to sell. From what I can remember the Warhammer historicals only kept going so long because it was someones pet project.
They probably would have to re-do moulds and get new boxes printed for the legacy games, but if they've still got the masters it's a fairly trivial task - dozens of small companies get new moulds made all the time. They could even outsource. Same with the metal casting.
I also think there'd be a reasonable market for a Citadel Collectors Series - re-release a short run of a few classic mini's every month on cast to order basis. Target the stuff that's expensive on eBay just now. They'd quite easily make back the cost of making a new mould and the short production run. They already own the rights and the masters, so there's almost no outlay or risk.
Reviving a couple of the specialist games could be done fairly quickly as the rules already exist. New boxed sets with completely new components like Space Hulk 3 might do pretty well, and they can stick within their own fluff background.
The historical games are an interesting idea. In one way one boggles that GW did not take advantage of the anniversary the First World War to promote their Warhammer: Great War rules. I presume they are only interested in games that people cannot play with alternative models. Once again they have been overtaken by many rivals in this area and it might simply alert HHHobbyists to the existence of alternatives.
Of course there are now many (usually cheaper) alternative models for various mainstream 40K armies, and also Fantasy, and perhaps that is part of GW's problem.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: "Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?"
Anyway, back OT
Star Wars could have saved GW. I'm looking at that X-wing game and thinking, why didn't GW do that?
Sure, they might have lost a bit cash for the license rights, but with their technical expertise, established brand name, and high street presence, it could have been the start of a beautiful collaboration.
Gw's rules for the last decade or so, Dreadfleet especially, would suggest that even with the license, the likelihood of them producing X-wing was precisely nil.
They would have produced what they know, small finecast minis that need painting, and a ruleset based heavily on randomness. X-Wing isnt great because its star wars - Attack Fighter and its often awful models using the same rules is also popular- it is great because it is a quick to play, incredibly fun game that doesnt require much time investment.
It is very telling that whilst that game is taking the tabletop world by storm, GW released a new version of their game that takes even longer to play. That 'no market research' things is working out well.
Star Wars could have saved GW. I'm looking at that X-wing game and thinking, why didn't GW do that?
Sure, they might have lost a bit cash for the license rights, but with their technical expertise, established brand name, and high street presence, it could have been the start of a beautiful collaboration.
'Cos all of the money they could've made off X-Wing might've been money that they didn't make off 40K, and that would be baaad!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Herzlos wrote:They won't touch the historical ranges; they don't have any mini's to sell. From what I can remember the Warhammer historicals only kept going so long because it was someones pet project.
Yarp. And when Rick left, and brought his superior mass-battle system to be published and released by the Fat Bloke et al, that was the final nail in the coffin.
Kilkrazy wrote:
The historical games are an interesting idea. In one way one boggles that GW did not take advantage of the anniversary the First World War to promote their Warhammer: Great War rules.
'Cos Warhammer Historicals died a death years ago (see above)?
Of course there are now many (usually cheaper) alternative models for various mainstream 40K armies, and also Fantasy, and perhaps that is part of GW's problem.
I would disagree and here's an example. Anybody can make and sell cola, but do you think Coca Cola worry that other people make cola? Doubtful.
X-wing or a similar star wars game could have saved GW (or at least boosted profits) and here's two reasons why:
1) Like I said earlier, GW would have been more than capable of producing a pre-painted, quick to play starter game. Even losing a small percentage to royalty payments would have still made it possible.
2) Do I's law of retail number 1 if you've selling something, make sure the customer can see what else you have for sale. Any person walking into a GW store to buy x-wing would have noticed (unless they were blind) all the other stuff on sale. Do not estimate the power of impulse buying, and staff giving customers a friendly nudge. Oh, you like x-wing, why not try this other very similar GW game. Supermarkets do it all the time. They put bacon next to eggs.
Point being, it doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to sell stuff. I know this, and I'm not even in retail.
Warhammer Historicals would be ridiculous for them to release, for several reasons:
1) There are alternative games already entrenched in that market, so what benefit would one have by choosing Warhammer Historicals? IIRC wasn't its main selling point at the time being a 28mm historical game when most were 15mm?
2) #1 notwithstanding, either they would want to produce their own miniatures for it, which would likely be overpriced and probably not bought, or deal with competition (e.g. Victrix, Perry, Warlord, others)
3) If they made it something that could be used with other lines, then it already exists as Hail Caesar (also PIke & Shotte and Black Powder) and there would be no compelling reason to buy Warhammer Historicals over the others.
The most they could hope for I think would be something like Kill Team + Inquisitor; a game that uses a small amount of 28mm 40k figures in skirmish games with a rules set that encourages narrative campaign games, and customization. Release a generic version, then release a Gorkamorka supplement (to help sell those shiny new Orks), then re-re-release a Space Hulk supplement w/terrain (cheap terrain, because nobody is going to buy that Zone Mortalis gak for hundreds). They now have something to compete with Infinity and Deadzone for not a lot of extra investment, only with one major selling point Infinity/Deadzone doesn't have: The 40k setting and background. They can then expand this with campaign packs (see how Deadzone has done theirs) at a reasonable price, let's say $25 for the booklet. Make it multi-player friendly too for team games.
That's all they can reasonably do, as anything else either will require too much (completely new molds or redoing old figures in plastic) or would have competition already entrenched.
I find the suggestions of skirmish games using the currently available miniatures, like kill team, to be giving too much of a concession to GW to make it easy for them to make a smaller game. It's just lazy. It's a great suggestion having smaller skirmish games, but just doing 40k with fewer figures is rather dull and easy for GW. I'd be very disappointed in an official release of kill team was made. It's just like 40k but you only need one box of marines.
I'd much rather have an individual stand alone game that focused on something different. Necromunda is great, and it specifically is not about using small numbers of space marines so that you feel you are playing mini-40k, it's a game and world entirely of it's own that happens to fit into the 40k background and tells us a lot about civilian life in the empire. Gorkamorka was less successful but also a lot of fun, Mordheim is also very creditable. Just recycling the current figures ranges into a small game adds nothing significant to what GW already offers. It's also very timid, lacking real imagination and isn't a bold move to do something new and attractive. One of the problems with GW seems to be a lack of diversity, if you don't want 40k there's very little on offer. Big 40k or mini-40k is not product diversity. GW seemed to be at their most successful when they were an actual workshop of games during the 90s making Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Mordhiem and others. That's when they rapidly spread across the UK, when their shops were interesting and their magazine was a great read. Now they focus on a single product in a niche hobby and everything revolves around aggressively pushing that product through their stores and magazine, instead of actually being interesting and appealing. Their magazine is a tedious picture book. Their shops have increasingly limited product and don't have interesting things to look at because all the tables are gone and they're manned by one person.
An inquisition type game would be a great move, hell there's already a community for Inquisimunda/Inq28 that has to make all their own material. Theres geat potential for miniatures and conversion, different warbands of inquisition of various stripes, cultists, fanatics, mutants, xenos, all on a spectrum of good-evil. It would allow some great source material and different eye catching models. It would be diverse from 40k in the main, as it encourages access to the bigger game without sharing miniature ranges.
But there could be other things they could do, but it has to be exciting and eye catching. To prove GW have wasted so many opportunities by scrapping their specialist games, fantasy football, spaceship games, fantasy naval games, gang warfare games, are all being done successfully by other companies. They've abandoned all those so a rerelease probably won't cut it. Time to be creative, if they've still got it in them after letting many of the older studio members go.
I would suggest spiritual successors to both Mordheim and Necromunda. Use existing Fantasy/40k kits. Utilize them as gateways to the larger games.
This is a great idea. Have a few smaller skirmish games set in the Warhammer/Warhammer 40k world where you might need to purchase 1 small box of Wood Elves (like, 10 men) and 1 small box of Skaven and maybe a character each, then have a campaign for those two sets to play through. Have rules for other aggressors so your friends could pick up a box of Ogres or Orcs and you could substitute out storylines. Then they could then scale up the campaign (a la HeroQuest and Kellar's Keep, etc.) and have you purchase a box of cavalry or poison wind globadiers, etc., etc. Eventually, you'd find yourself finished with this reasonably affordable campaign and you might try your hand at painting the miniatures. Before you know it, you are interested in doing larger scale battles and so you take a look at the Codex for one of your sets. Now you've "bought in" to Warhammer without even realizing it and having fun doing it, all the while learning game mechanics and forming a fledgling gaming circle.
Of course there are now many (usually cheaper) alternative models for various mainstream 40K armies, and also Fantasy, and perhaps that is part of GW's problem.
I would disagree and here's an example. Anybody can make and sell cola, but do you think Coca Cola worry that other people make cola? Doubtful.
Really bad example - because Coke has in the past done exactly that, and shot themselves in the foot by doing so - look up New Coke/Coke II...
'Pepsi is catching up to us! Let's make Coke taste more like Pepsi!'
Turned out that the folks that liked Coke didn't want it to taste like Pepsi.....
Coke also spends a lot of money on market research....
Howard A Treesong wrote: I find the suggestions of skirmish games using the currently available miniatures, like kill team, to be giving too much of a concession to GW to make it easy for them to make a smaller game. It's just lazy. It's a great suggestion having smaller skirmish games, but just doing 40k with fewer figures is rather dull and easy for GW. I'd be very disappointed in an official release of kill team was made. It's just like 40k but you only need one box of marines.
That's what 6th edition Kill Team was
Really though, they can't afford right now to spin up custom figures, they have to put something fairly quick out there. Hence my suggestions they should focus on writing something similar to Kill Team but less lazy; not just 40k with fewer figures but closer to Inquisitor. Something that can stand alone, but use 28mm figures from 40k.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I find the suggestions of skirmish games using the currently available miniatures, like kill team, to be giving too much of a concession to GW to make it easy for them to make a smaller game. It's just lazy. It's a great suggestion having smaller skirmish games, but just doing 40k with fewer figures is rather dull and easy for GW. I'd be very disappointed in an official release of kill team was made. It's just like 40k but you only need one box of marines.
I'd much rather have an individual stand alone game that focused on something different. Necromunda is great, and it specifically is not about using small numbers of space marines so that you feel you are playing mini-40k, it's a game and world entirely of it's own that happens to fit into the 40k background and tells us a lot about civilian life in the empire. Gorkamorka was less successful but also a lot of fun, Mordheim is also very creditable. Just recycling the current figures ranges into a small game adds nothing significant to what GW already offers. It's also very timid, lacking real imagination and isn't a bold move to do something new and attractive. One of the problems with GW seems to be a lack of diversity, if you don't want 40k there's very little on offer. Big 40k or mini-40k is not product diversity. GW seemed to be at their most successful when they were an actual workshop of games during the 90s making Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Mordhiem and others. That's when they rapidly spread across the UK, when their shops were interesting and their magazine was a great read. Now they focus on a single product in a niche hobby and everything revolves around aggressively pushing that product through their stores and magazine, instead of actually being interesting and appealing. Their magazine is a tedious picture book. Their shops have increasingly limited product and don't have interesting things to look at because all the tables are gone and they're manned by one person.
An inquisition type game would be a great move, hell there's already a community for Inquisimunda/Inq28 that has to make all their own material. Theres geat potential for miniatures and conversion, different warbands of inquisition of various stripes, cultists, fanatics, mutants, xenos, all on a spectrum of good-evil. It would allow some great source material and different eye catching models. It would be diverse from 40k in the main, as it encourages access to the bigger game without sharing miniature ranges.
I agree, the skirmish game shouldn't just be scaled down 40K or FB, and should have its own model range. However, it should be in the same scale and there should be some overlap. I'm sure at least half of the people who bought Space Hulk, bought it to use the models in 40K. Some sort of Inquisimunda would be the best candidate (Hell, it could literally be Inquisitors in Necromunda!) Inquisitors and their warbands, various chaos cults, gangs and mercenaries.
1) Like I said earlier, GW would have been more than capable of producing a pre-painted, quick to play starter game.
Nothing of their output for the last quarter of a century suggests they would come up with that idea, so why are you certain they could?
I'm not suggesting they couldnt manufactur such a game, I'm telling you they would never, ever design such a game.
X Wing exists because FFG too the basic game play of the WW1 fighter plane game they already had and added Star Wars and some finesse to the presentation.
GW would have produced Dreadfleet in space - not because they are silly or not good designers, but because that is the only thing GW management would approve.
If you put Necromunda (including the various expansion rules from the Journal/Gang War/Fanatic), Inquisitor, Kill Team and research into what people like about current non-GW skirmish games into a pot and stirred carefully you could pretty easily come out with something excellent. Arbites, Inquisitorial Retinues, Genestealer Cults, Hive Gangs, Chaos Cults, personal warriors of noble houses/politicians/the church/rogue traders, various human/pirate Xenos etc etc set in a more wild area of space (edge of the Maelstrom for example) would give plenty of depth.
If they released a small scale skirmish game with solid rules (or even a rehash of Necromunda rules) that featured Genestealer Cults as a faction I would be very severely tempted. And I'd probably end up collecting other factions, too, since that's what I inevitably do in any miniatures game.
With all due respect to my fellow dakka members, the idea that a skirmish game is going to save GW, is pretty ridiculous.
Necromunda/Mordheim etc as good as they are, didn't exactly set the world on fire when GW took them seriously. They're too niche, too small scale to make any decent boost to profits.
Other people have articulated the solutions to GW's woes far better than me.
What's needed is community engagement, feedback and surveys, turning up to independent events, better relations with local independents, sponsorship, reasonable prices etc etc
There's nothing wrong with GW wanting to make an 'elite' range of niche models. In this day and age of video games and 3D printing, it would be a viable, long term prospect. The fanbase is there, and if treated properly, the fanbase had shown itself in the past to be remarkably loyal.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: With all due respect to my fellow dakka members, the idea that a skirmish game is going to save GW, is pretty ridiculous.
Necromunda/Mordheim etc as good as they are, didn't exactly set the world on fire when GW took them seriously. They're too niche, too small scale to make any decent boost to profits.
Other people have articulated the solutions to GW's woes far better than me.
What's needed is community engagement, feedback and surveys, turning up to independent events, better relations with local independents, sponsorship, reasonable prices etc etc
There's nothing wrong with GW wanting to make an 'elite' range of niche models. In this day and age of video games and 3D printing, it would be a viable, long term prospect. The fanbase is there, and if treated properly, the fanbase had shown itself in the past to be remarkably loyal.
Your right, all of the things that you said are pretty pivotal if GW wants to ensure its longevity and a return to growth.
But they also need a gateway game because their main products are too expensive to get into, and a diversity of games that encourage their fanbase to remain "in house" for all of their gaming needs because when people get tired of 40k / WHFB they have nothing else to play in the GW inventory.
A skirmish game (or series of games) that was set in the same universe but at the same time was diverse from their two main products, enough to provide veterans with a sort of palate clenser when they became tired of 40k / WHFB, would serve all of those purposes.
Skirmish games are exactly the area where their competitors have thrived; GW should challenge them on this field. Furthermore, a boxed skirmish game sold in big chain stores is the best possible way to get new customers.
Crimson wrote: Skirmish games are exactly the area where their competitors have thrived; GW should challenge them on this field. Furthermore, a boxed skirmish game sold in big chain stores is the best possible way to get new customers.
Could GW even do it competently though? They seem to be creatively bankrupt.
Crimson wrote: Skirmish games are exactly the area where their competitors have thrived; GW should challenge them on this field. Furthermore, a boxed skirmish game sold in big chain stores is the best possible way to get new customers.
Indeed, they could also sell the startersets or battle boxes in big chain stores.
If GW announced a skirmish game using 40k models, I'd buy a couple boxes of Cadians and the FW Renegade Militia conversion kits today.
They better take their current situation seriously. Bad news spreads like wildfire, and in the few short days since that report has come out - I'm already seeing detrimental effects in the community. People don't want to spend money on a game with an uncertain future. Attracting new customers is going to be even more difficult now. I don't see this ending well for GW.
Games Workshop just needs to realize that charging for rules, or at least what they charge for rules, is done for. The other games I play all have rules either in the kit, free, or available for cheap. $50 for a game book? Is it the hardcover main rulebook? No? Go jog on.
For $60, I can own all the rules for Warmachine and Hordes for life. Any new updates? Free. Any new units? Free. They have to make the rules to sell the models (unless it's an LE), so why lock them behind a massive pay wall? What's considered a formation and worth $5-$15 from GW is a tier list in warmachine and it's a free, additional fluffy way to play your models. Infinity has this with Sectorials, too.
GW has to step up their own game, and also meet or beat feature parity with their growing competition. Otherwise, I wouldn't consider a skirmish game from GW or 40k ever again.
Baragash wrote: If you put Necromunda (including the various expansion rules from the Journal/Gang War/Fanatic), Inquisitor, Kill Team and research into what people like about current non-GW skirmish games into a pot and stirred carefully you could pretty easily come out with something excellent. Arbites, Inquisitorial Retinues, Genestealer Cults, Hive Gangs, Chaos Cults, personal warriors of noble houses/politicians/the church/rogue traders, various human/pirate Xenos etc etc set in a more wild area of space (edge of the Maelstrom for example) would give plenty of depth.
This. Throw in a few cherubs, box it up and call it 'Rogue Trader'. Make it really simple so even non-gamers can get their heads round it [e.g. 'hit & miss' dice] and so that it is stocked in book shops and newsagents. Advertise on TV!!!! Release expansion packs. Include a flyer inside about 40k. Do a similar thing but set in WHFB world. Release 'Advanced' versions, stealing ideas from Infinity and WM&H. Watch sales fly in.
Even the most jaded former GW customers tend to agree that the setting is awesome, and there's so much more to milk from it.
I half expect GW to abandon Fantasy at some point. In fact I would not be surprised at all should Fantasy head the way of the dodo.
There is hardly anything GW can protect or offer as watertight and wanted IP/Brand within that system.
Hope I am wrong as 3rd ed Fantasy was the first rules book I brought but. with fantasy as one of the most generic tropes out there a litigious and money grabbing GW probably sees slim value in it's second game system.
