I get that they don't do demographic research, have no focus groups and do not ask the market what it wants.
BUT...wouldn't there own financial results tell them that what they're doing isn't really working?
I wouldn't be surprised if the never put the two together. Sure, they can see sales declining, but maybe they think the reason is not enough GW stores, or those pesky online retailers selling things at a discount, or eBay or any number of things other than their own strategy. People aren't buying enough! Make the game bigger! Nonsense like that.
"Its all Chapter House Studios' fault, stealing revenue that rightly belongs to us."
-Tom Kirby.
"It's all Chapterhouse Studios' fault, stealing our hogs."
They can release new codexes as fast as they want, I still won't be buying them until they offer a softcover option.
Or at least shrink wrap the codices and give me a digital key for the digital version within. I could justify the cost a little more if I got both a hardback version for my own library and a digital version that I can take to games. But having to pay for one or the other?
Vet players will generally only buy the new stuff. .
This is not actually true.
A lot of vets build multiple armies, and even those who stick to the one army will generally need to buy additional stuff as new codexes rearrange their army.
Up until very recently, my usual pattern was to see/plan a playstyle I wanted to try out, figure out the codex that fit it best, and go buy the whole mess.
I used to be similar. One of the things I loved about 40K was the planning. I used to love list-building and comparing it to the lists that I was seeing in the meta. Sometimes I would drift over to other armies and decide they fit my ideas for the time, so I might build that army instead.
With an accelerated release schedule, that seems less and less feasible. The list-building is less fun because the meta is ever-changing. By the time I would've bought the new models, played some games with the new list and made adjustments, the next codex would've already hit, forcing me to do it again.
DrRansom wrote: Not in the absolute sense, but more of "a market existed"...
...for a Star Wars game.
BFG is not a Star Wars game.
It is however a 'Capitol Ships' game.
So while it does not align on one axis it does align on another, equally important, axis.
The Auld Grump
*EDIT* Murderfang had another victim today - a Space Wolves player, with twenty years of playing the army, decided enough was enough when he read about Murderfang, and looked at Logan Claus and his sleigh....
TheAuldGrump wrote: *EDIT* Murderfang had another victim today - a Space Wolves player, with twenty years of playing the army, decided enough was enough when he read about Murderfang, and looked at Logan Claus and his sleigh....
I don't blame him in the slightest. I don't play SW and the Wolfy McWolfersson bollocks was already a turnoff - this latest ridiculous junk is turning me off the entire setting tbh. GW stepped way too far over the line with those things, far enough to seriously damage the setting for me. I could handle the bathtub dropship for the ww2 troop ship aesthetic, but there is no redeeming ... what you said. I don't even want to type it ; /
TheAuldGrump wrote: *EDIT* Murderfang had another victim today - a Space Wolves player, with twenty years of playing the army, decided enough was enough when he read about Murderfang, and looked at Logan Claus and his sleigh....
I don't blame him in the slightest. I don't play SW and the Wolfy McWolfersson bollocks was already a turnoff - this latest ridiculous junk is turning me off the entire setting tbh. GW stepped way too far over the line with those things, far enough to seriously damage the setting for me. I could handle the bathtub dropship for the ww2 troop ship aesthetic, but there is no redeeming ... what you said. I don't even want to type it ; /
It forces a dilemma on us SW players. Buy the codex and vindicate all this crap or eternally be blamed for something worse when numbers don't add up.....
2017...The Murder Wolves approach.......
Seriously though, GW and its aversion to market research is really fething stupid.
So while it does not align on one axis it does align on another, equally important, axis.
Except it doesn't, entirely... because a certain number of sales of the Star Wars game are going to be coming from the fact that it is Star Wars, rather than specifically because it is a capital ship-oriented game.
When decipher lost the Star Wars license they attempted to continue using the Star Wars CCG rules with their own product, Wars TCG. It didn't catch on. Similarly a generic fantasy game with the LotR rules wouldn't have flown off the shelves like LotR did.
Murderfang and Logan Clause have made me decide to start an eldar army after exclusively playing SW since 3rd and getting around 5k points of wolves. I will probably keep my wolves but I'm definitely not buying anything else for them. I'm not really worried about those 2 models ruining the setting as I'll never see them on the table or use them myself. It has made me decide to most likely purchase my eldar stuff anywhere but from GW when I have bought exclusively from them in the past.
TheAuldGrump wrote: *EDIT* Murderfang had another victim today - a Space Wolves player, with twenty years of playing the army, decided enough was enough when he read about Murderfang, and looked at Logan Claus and his sleigh....
RE: Star Wars Armada and BFG interest.
When Specialist Games started to disappear, Spartan Games seemed to reverse a decision that their game, Firestorm Armada, was to follow Uncharted Seas into 'direct sales only, no further releases' territory. Since then, they've introduced a new, revitalised version of the game in a big starter box. I think that indicates that a market for ship games suddenly appeared, as if by magic...
I was definitely looking for a capital ship game, but I didn't like the ship designs of Armada. I wanted to get into BFG but I was at college and by the time I was ready, it was gone. A Star Wars big ship game? I'm there!
Toofast wrote: Murderfang and Logan Clause have made me decide to start an eldar army after exclusively playing SW since 3rd and getting around 5k points of wolves. I will probably keep my wolves but I'm definitely not buying anything else for them. I'm not really worried about those 2 models ruining the setting as I'll never see them on the table or use them myself. It has made me decide to most likely purchase my eldar stuff anywhere but from GW when I have bought exclusively from them in the past.
So, what you're essentially saying is that due to Games Workshop making bad commercial decisions, you've decided to punish them by giving them more money?
Not to pick on you specifically, because this isn't a unique situation, but this is very typical of the behaviour that has kept GW's treading water for so long.
I appreciate what you say about not buying direct, it is the same technique I use myself if I really feel that GW make the best thing I want in order to represent whatever unit it is I'm building and I can't find a third party or second hand version in reasonable time, but starting a whole new army is still going to require fairly substantial buy in, and unless you've the patience to do it entirely third party/second hand, that is still putting reasonably substantial cash in GW's coffers.
This report explicitly states GW do not listen to us, nor do they care that they don't. Therefore, your wallet is the only thing you can use to communicate your displeasure.
MWHistorian wrote: I was definitely looking for a capital ship game, but I didn't like the ship designs of Armada. I wanted to get into BFG but I was at college and by the time I was ready, it was gone.
I get that they don't do demographic research, have no focus groups and do not ask the market what it wants.
BUT...wouldn't there own financial results tell them that what they're doing isn't really working?
I wouldn't be surprised if the never put the two together. Sure, they can see sales declining, but maybe they think the reason is not enough GW stores, or those pesky online retailers selling things at a discount, or eBay or any number of things other than their own strategy. People aren't buying enough! Make the game bigger! Nonsense like that.
"Its all Chapter House Studios' fault, stealing revenue that rightly belongs to us."
-Tom Kirby.
Should that change, or we meet intransigent small infringers, we have copyright, trademark and passing off law to protect our imagery and we have never been shy of using legal redress if needed. Our legal department deals with dozens of cases each year with satisfactory results. The scale upon which we do business is the biggest defence against this threat. The cases we deal with (and there are dozens each year) are nearly all single individuals or small businesses who ‘cease and desist’ as soon as they get the letter. Those who don’t should be stopped more because we need to ensure everyone knows we are serious about defending our IP rather than because of the immediate threat of damage to our profits.
Tom Kirby - 2012-2013 Annual Report
For emphasis of comparison, here is what he wrote this year:
We have, this last year, spent an indecent amount of your money trying to stop someone stealing our ideas and images. It is a very difficult thing to do when it is done through a legal system designed to prevent people stealing hogs from one another. Our experience has probably been typical of most – far too much money spent on far too little gain. The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit, lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?
Oh, and by the way, Kirby wrote the 2012-2013 preamble AFTER the GW v CHS verdict. Note that nothing about the state of that verdict or the case has changed between that preamble and the current one. So, why the change in tune?
liquidjoshi wrote: So... even Kirby doesn't know exactly what he's saying? Did they lobotomise him halfway through the report?
More likely I'm not reading into it correctly I presume.
No, you're reading it correctly.
This presents as one of two likely scenarios.
They needed as many plausible reasons as possible to explain away the drop in profits as a temporary blip,rather than a trend, and so switched the direction of the spin and hoped it would pass casual inspection.
They've had their arses handed to them in the behind closed doors negotiations that have been happening since shortly after the trial concluded, and that isn't public yet.
I actually think that GW's idea of charging crapton for their models has actually had some positive effects for their product sales that aren't showing, and here's why; there will 100% always be a very large amount of people who will buy their stuff so long as it is made. Why? Because we've (I am one of them) have spent a RIDICULOUS amount of money on it. For me to start to play another board game now is an incredibly stupid idea because
a) like most gamers I know I only have time for one game, and that game is going to be the one that I have put the money into
b) I've put this much money into them that I will take the dicking around because if I quit the hobby I have wasted thousands on their stuff, never to use it again.
I'm a casual gamer that hasn't got all that much time to try out new games and has enough fun playing 40k and a tiny bit of fantasy to be relatively content. I've spent quite a bit on GW products over the years and I don't want to suddenly make all that redundant while I'm still enjoying myself.
I honestly think that people put too much emphasis on these people that do jump ship compared to those who stick around. For every person that has stopped the game due to what they feel is unfair pricing there are many more who stick around because they aren't unhappy enough to change and the pricing has caused them to commit to the game for the long haul.
Dude, you're a living, breathing example of the sunken cost fallacy.
If you want to keep playing 40K, that's fine, but don't be under the illusion that you couldn't, at least now while there is still a relatively healthy secondary market, liquidate your GW's stuff and reinvest in a new system, or simply stop buying stuff for Warhammer and start some thing new.
You simply haven't reached the point (and may never) where your dissatisfaction with the product or producer has overhauled your inertia.
I think GW might be (assuming a level of awareness of their customers that they simply may not have in light of this report) gambling on the fact that there's enough people out there with a high enough threshold that they can reach a point of parity, where they can churn out any old rubbish but will not lose custom because of it.
@thetallestgiraffe
No, there is no positive effect.
Sales are going down. price increases and efficiency savings are already starting to show the cracks.
If you see a value from what you are paying then good on you. GW's reports are starting to tell us that a lot more people than you realize are just not prepared to tolerate being unhappy anymore.
Toofast wrote: Murderfang and Logan Clause have made me decide to start an eldar army after exclusively playing SW since 3rd and getting around 5k points of wolves. I will probably keep my wolves but I'm definitely not buying anything else for them. I'm not really worried about those 2 models ruining the setting as I'll never see them on the table or use them myself. It has made me decide to most likely purchase my eldar stuff anywhere but from GW when I have bought exclusively from them in the past.
So, what you're essentially saying is that due to Games Workshop making bad commercial decisions, you've decided to punish them by giving them more money?
Not to pick on you specifically, because this isn't a unique situation, but this is very typical of the behaviour that has kept GW's treading water for so long.
I appreciate what you say about not buying direct, it is the same technique I use myself if I really feel that GW make the best thing I want in order to represent whatever unit it is I'm building and I can't find a third party or second hand version in reasonable time, but starting a whole new army is still going to require fairly substantial buy in, and unless you've the patience to do it entirely third party/second hand, that is still putting reasonably substantial cash in GW's coffers.
This report explicitly states GW do not listen to us, nor do they care that they don't. Therefore, your wallet is the only thing you can use to communicate your displeasure.
This. When you protest a decision made by GW by purchasing more GW product, you're simply reinforcing their decisions. They don't know (or care!) that you aren't buying Wolves. What they see is a small sales spike after the Wolves release. Whether you're in the group that is buying Wolves or in the group that is buying another army, they don't care. Either way, they got your money and have no intention of changing their creative direction. After all, it is win-win for them: either you're buying the codex you love, or you're buying another codex because they screwed up the one you love.
Azreal13 wrote: Dude, you're a living, breathing example of the sunken cost fallacy.
If you want to keep playing 40K, that's fine, but don't be under the illusion that you couldn't, at least now while there is still a relatively healthy secondary market, liquidate your GW's stuff and reinvest in a new system, or simply stop buying stuff for Warhammer and start some thing new.
You simply haven't reached the point (and may never) where your dissatisfaction with the product or producer has overhauled your inertia.
I think GW might be (assuming a level of awareness of their customers that they simply may not have in light of this report) gambling on the fact that there's enough people out there with a high enough threshold that they can reach a point of parity, where they can churn out any old rubbish but will not lose custom because of it.
I'm not saying that people aren't going to jump ship, I'm saying that I don't think that GW will have a bottom to fall out under it because of people like me. Apathy is the wrong word... I would more say it's that I don't get involved with all this economic stuff in the hobby. What I know is that I show up to my local GW, play games and socialise. I don't really care about the price TOO much, sure I my gruble but I deal and TBH I don't feel passionately enough to try and change and I have 7 or 8 mates who feel the same. I can't think that my friends are an isolated case, as we very naturally got into this mindset and I can't see out way of thinking being all that revolutionary.
Reading over my previous post I misspoke and I apologise, what I meant was GW has been at the level above what people like me alone would keep it at with this mentality, meaning that people such as yourselves that feel more passionately about wargaming have been happy to put money up until now. But I do think that the money they charge for the hobby has solidified this particular customer, such as myself at a certain level. Sure, even we have our boundaries and I will admit I have been quite happier and maybe was a bit more active, but this high pricing has meant that I have spent enough money on this to not want it to change.
This of course is what I have viewed from my very grassroots level wargaming; I don't have the big, overarching view of things, but it's what I've observed from my own standpoint and I just thought it would be a good to voice it, as most people aren't really looking at this from your average gamer's point of view IMO. But hey, this is a discussion post so make of this what you will.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah, I know it is a bit depressing being close part of the sunken costs fallacy, but I wouldn't say I'm totally there yet. This is kind of like going to the movies to see the last harry potter they crammed in; it was alright, I may have wanted to see something else instead, but I'd seen part 1 and I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy it
Azreal13 wrote: Dude, you're a living, breathing example of the sunken cost fallacy.
If you want to keep playing 40K, that's fine, but don't be under the illusion that you couldn't, at least now while there is still a relatively healthy secondary market, liquidate your GW's stuff and reinvest in a new system, or simply stop buying stuff for Warhammer and start some thing new.
You simply haven't reached the point (and may never) where your dissatisfaction with the product or producer has overhauled your inertia.
I think GW might be (assuming a level of awareness of their customers that they simply may not have in light of this report) gambling on the fact that there's enough people out there with a high enough threshold that they can reach a point of parity, where they can churn out any old rubbish but will not lose custom because of it.
I'm not saying that people aren't going to jump ship, I'm saying that I don't think that GW will have a bottom to fall out under it because of people like me. Apathy is the wrong word... I would more say it's that I don't get involved with all this economic stuff in the hobby. What I know is that I show up to my local GW, play games and socialise. I don't really care about the price TOO much, sure I my gruble but I deal and TBH I don't feel passionately enough to try and change and I have 7 or 8 mates who feel the same. I can't think that my friends are an isolated case, as we very naturally got into this mindset and I can't see out way of thinking being all that revolutionary.
Reading over my previous post I misspoke and I apologise, what I meant was GW has been at the level above what people like me alone would keep it at with this mentality, meaning that people such as yourselves that feel more passionately about wargaming have been happy to put money up until now. But I do think that the money they charge for the hobby has solidified this particular customer, such as myself at a certain level. Sure, even we have our boundaries and I will admit I have been quite happier and maybe was a bit more active, but this high pricing has meant that I have spent enough money on this to not want it to change.
This of course is what I have viewed from my very grassroots level wargaming; I don't have the big, overarching view of things, but it's what I've observed from my own standpoint and I just thought it would be a good to voice it, as most people aren't really looking at this from your average gamer's point of view IMO. But hey, this is a discussion post so make of this what you will.
)
I'm essentially getting two elements from what you're posting firstly, is this..
Seriously, GW are possibly on a knife edge right now - they're revenue has dropped significantly in spite of a continuing phased, rolling price increase (the new SW dreadnought kit is almost identical to the BA Furioso kit, but is >20% more expensive only 3 years later) and their profits are suffering even more, with less than robust reasons (although not totally implausible) why.
If their revenue drops much further, their income will drop below their expenditure, and then they will disappear very, very quickly indeed.
Secondly, your profile shows you've only been playing for a few years.
liquidjoshi wrote: So... even Kirby doesn't know exactly what he's saying? Did they lobotomise him halfway through the report?
More likely I'm not reading into it correctly I presume.
You are reading into it correctly! He did say: "Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?"
Your eyes do not deceive you! The above is probably one of the funniest things I have ever read on dakka. I don't need an excuse to quote it!
I'm essentially getting two elements from what you're posting firstly, is this..
Seriously, GW are possibly on a knife edge right now - they're revenue has dropped significantly in spite of a continuing phased, rolling price increase (the new SW dreadnought kit is almost identical to the BA Furioso kit, but is >20% more expensive only 3 years later) and their profits are suffering even more, with less than robust reasons (although not totally implausible) why.
If their revenue drops much further, their income will drop below their expenditure, and then they will disappear very, very quickly indeed.
Secondly, your profile shows you've only been playing for a few years.
Give it time.
Haha, as I say, I will admit to know little of their inner ecenomic workings. I have been playing for five years straight, which is a drop in the bucket compared to the hardcore players sure, but I have been very commited to the hobby in this time and I while it would be ignorant of me to assume that people such as me will keep the company running the way it is at the moment, I just think that there's enough of us to keep interest so that at the very least if the current GW collapses we will be able to get behind it getting bought out but another company who will re work warhammer to make it profitable and give us what we want.
Just don't mix people like me up with what is happening in the wide world of warhammer, as to be honest we have very little concerns about it so long as we don't have our world shaken up too much. I actually noticed 0 problems with GW until I found this topic on Dakka, and I have been to 7 different GWs in four different countries over the past month and it's all business as usual there ( I was on holiday and hoping that they looked really weird; although the french codecies were a bit odd I was quite disappointed).
Don't dismiss us, we'll do our best to make sure our beloved addictions aren't lost
We have, this last year, spent an indecent amount of your money trying to stop someone stealing our ideas and images.
This sentence shows how out of touch Kirby is with the real world. No one can copyright or trademark ideas, nor can one copyright a sculpture based on an illustration unless one has actually made the sculpture. GW vs Chapterhouse verdict got this wrong which is one of the reasons that two of the top IP law firms in the world are helping Chapterhouse in their appeal of the verdict and doing it pro bono (for free).
liquidjoshi wrote: So... even Kirby doesn't know exactly what he's saying? Did they lobotomise him halfway through the report?
More likely I'm not reading into it correctly I presume.
No, you're reading it correctly.
This presents as one of two likely scenarios.
They needed as many plausible reasons as possible to explain away the drop in profits as a temporary blip,rather than a trend, and so switched the direction of the spin and hoped it would pass casual inspection.
They've had their arses handed to them in the behind closed doors negotiations that have been happening since shortly after the trial concluded, and that isn't public yet.
You're missing a third (and in my opinion most likely) possibility: Kirby and co. got chewed out for the expenditures when folks started looking at the financials more closely and wondered what the huge expense was for. Such an inquiry would naturally lead down a GW v CHS rabbit hole and could easily result in finger pointing and blame throwing.
Unlike many expenditures, the money GW put into the GW v CHS case would be very conspicuous in the context of the legal department's normal budget, and it can be easily tied to an objective failure.
You spent more than a million dollars, the defendant is still in business, and you haven't actually seen any of the 25K judgement because the lawsuit is being appealed by another major law firm? You exposed the company to millions in ongoing liability, put the intellectual property at risk, devalued the brand, accomplished nothing, and are still putting money into this?!? Which of you idiots decided to piss away my money on this nonsense?
Personally, what sticks out most to me is the phrase "indecent amount of your money." If investors hadn't already said that, I seriously doubt Kirby would voluntarily come so close to admitting breach of fiduciary duty.
thetallestgiraffe wrote:I actually think that GW's idea of charging crapton for their models has actually had some positive effects for their product sales that aren't showing, and here's why; there will 100% always be a very large amount of people who will buy their stuff so long as it is made. Why? Because we've (I am one of them) have spent a RIDICULOUS amount of money on it. For me to start to play another board game now is an incredibly stupid idea because
a) like most gamers I know I only have time for one game, and that game is going to be the one that I have put the money into
b) I've put this much money into them that I will take the dicking around because if I quit the hobby I have wasted thousands on their stuff, never to use it again.
While I think Azreal's going a bit hard on you, I have to agree with this:
Azreal13 wrote:Dude, you're a living, breathing example of the sunken cost fallacy.
I've seen the 'I've spent too much to stop spending' thing far too often on places like Warseer, and too often it seems like the only reason some of these people stick with GW and 40K, like an abused spouse. If you hadn't said (and to be frank, despite that you said) your only gaming venue was a GW store, I'd say what I always say: you can keep your minis and roll in the fluff. New minis and new fluff don't invalidate that. If at some time you get fed up because of screwy turns in minis and fluff (flying viking bathtub, anyone?), ricocheting meta, or grindingly childish rules*, that still doesn't invalidate your old minis and the old fluff. You can keep all that and simply try out (cheaper, better) sci-fi rules that you can slot 'em into.
It just might mean having to look for local gaming clubs rather than GW stores. (Seven of which aren't statistically significant, especially in the face of financial reports, sorry.)
And the time spent doing that will be more than recompensed by the time saved not having to look up convoluted rules rather than pushing toy soldiers around. (Seriously, if time is a concern, 40K and FB aren't your friends. They take up ridiculous amounts of time compared to proper mass-battle games, let alone other, properly-sized skirmish games)
*I also agree with this:
Azreal13 wrote:Secondly, your profile shows you've only been playing for a few years.
thetallestgiraffe wrote: I actually think that GW's idea of charging crapton for their models has actually had some positive effects for their product sales that aren't showing, and here's why; there will 100% always be a very large amount of people who will buy their stuff so long as it is made. Why? Because we've (I am one of them) have spent a RIDICULOUS amount of money on it. For me to start to play another board game now is an incredibly stupid idea because
a) like most gamers I know I only have time for one game, and that game is going to be the one that I have put the money into
b) I've put this much money into them that I will take the dicking around because if I quit the hobby I have wasted thousands on their stuff, never to use it again.
I'm a casual gamer that hasn't got all that much time to try out new games and has enough fun playing 40k and a tiny bit of fantasy to be relatively content. I've spent quite a bit on GW products over the years and I don't want to suddenly make all that redundant while I'm still enjoying myself.
I honestly think that people put too much emphasis on these people that do jump ship compared to those who stick around. For every person that has stopped the game due to what they feel is unfair pricing there are many more who stick around because they aren't unhappy enough to change and the pricing has caused them to commit to the game for the long haul.
Do you realise you can get an entire massive involving well-made game like Twilight Imperium III for less than the price of a single Imperial Night Titan without the codex you need to use it?
Vermis wrote: While I think Azreal's going a bit hard on you, I have to agree with this:
Azreal13 wrote:Dude, you're a living, breathing example of the sunken cost fallacy.
I've seen the 'I've spent too much to stop spending' thing far too often on places like Warseer, and too often it seems like the only reason some of these people stick with GW and 40K, like an abused spouse. If you hadn't said (and to be frank, despite that you said) your only gaming venue was a GW store, I'd say what I always say: you can keep your minis and roll in the fluff. New minis and new fluff don't invalidate that. If at some time you get fed up because of screwy turns in minis and fluff (flying viking bathtub, anyone?), ricocheting meta, or grindingly childish rules*, that still doesn't invalidate your old minis and the old fluff. You can keep all that and simply try out (cheaper, better) sci-fi rules that you can slot 'em into.
I know I used to have this "purist" concept in my head- that I wanted to stick adamantly to 40k because I was trying to maintain a certain scale/aesthetic/concept that really prevented me from getting into to other games. And that worked well for some games I generally couldn't build interest in (still not the biggest fan of WMH aesthetic so that stopped me from getting into it too much).
But once I saw the value in other games, I thought to myself "why didn't I do this sooner?" Games like Infinity, Dystopian Wars, and All Quiet on the Martian Front caught my interest in terms of their style and I realized I had been shoehorning myself into one game, one company that I know only values the money in my pocket.
Exactly. When I got back into 40k, the FIRST thing I experienced when I went to ALL 3 FLGS(we have no GW) was that not only employees, but also fellow gamers were actively trying to turn us 40k'ers on to warmachine, hordes, infinity, etc etc.
It is such an easy sale when you look objectively at the pros and cons of any game vs. 40k.
the only thing that keeps me in 40k is the emotional attachment to how much time and money ive spent already.
But that will only last so long, and it certainly doesn't make me feel intelligent when buying 200 dollars worth of JUST codexes in the last 2 years.
This report explicitly states GW do not listen to us, nor do they care that they don't. Therefore, your wallet is the only thing you can use to communicate your displeasure.
I agree!
However, the latest financials kind of tell us they don't listen to that result either!
So while it does not align on one axis it does align on another, equally important, axis.
Except it doesn't, entirely... because a certain number of sales of the Star Wars game are going to be coming from the fact that it is Star Wars, rather than specifically because it is a capital ship-oriented game.
Which is why I said that it aligned on one axis - and, yes, I do think that a broad release Capitol Ships game is in the same category as a Capitol Ships game, in much the same way that I feel that Deadzone is in the same category as Necromunda.
There are folks that want a Capitol Ships fleet battles game, whether Star Wars or Battlefleet Gothic (or Babylon 5 for that matter...).
I guess that the question is whether the Star Wars axis is more important than the Capitol Ships axis. Star Wars has a broader appeal - but I also think that GW has been losing a great deal of the breadth to its own appeal. That getting rid of Specialist Games have narrowed their appeal.
And I do not know if they can regain that appeal at this point. Or, worse, if GW would release a ham handed BFG in the style of Dreadfleet. (That, right there, is what I fear would happen.)
I guess I should've expected my intentions to be misrepresented and clarified a little more. I will build my eldar army via ebay and buying from local players. No GW or FLGS. I fail to see how GW gets a sales spike from me buying models on ebay.
That minor detail does change everything. But overall, the point is you're still participating in the hobby. I'm not saying you shouldn't, but the thing is changing armies doesn't punish GW. Changing game systems does. What YOU do is a drop in the bucket. What the general gamers do is more important. I think what people are trying to get at is that people are beginning to move to other games, not other armies.
Toofast wrote: I guess I should've expected my intentions to be misrepresented and clarified a little more. I will build my eldar army via ebay and buying from local players. No GW or FLGS. I fail to see how GW gets a sales spike from me buying models on ebay.
More misunderstood than misrepresented, I think.
Though goodness knows that GW would love to close down eBay sales, if they could.
The only sales spike that GW might get from you buying from eBay is from folks wanting to play against you buying new - and since it is likely that you would stage whisper to buy from eBay instead....
Me... I am done with GW, I think.
I still play Mordheim and Necromunda - but use miniatures that are either old or were purchased from other companies.
And that is the current extent of my GW gaming.
I spend more than ever, but none of it goes to GW.
There's lot of reasons for me to stay with 40k. I have a GW 1/4 mile from my house with 30~ active players and we get more every week. We have 3 realm of battle tables with lots of nicely painted scenery. All my friends play 40k and maybe a little fantasy but haven't gotten into other games. I have 5k points worth and all the necessary books. I don't have time/energy/desire to spend more money on another system and learn all new rules/strategies, try to make all new friends or convince people who have no problem playing 40k to switch games, and play in the dark, cramped FLGS on felt tables with no scenery. That doesn't mean I like the company, but I still enjoy the game and see zero reasons to switch and tons of reasons not to. I guess the mass migration to other games just hasn't hit my area. I've been hanging out at GW a lot this week testing different lists and seen 5 people start new 40k armies with $200-300 initial purchases. I don't know anyone in our group trying to sell their army and get out, just a few guys maybe looking to trade one army for another like me.
Well its like anything else man. Cities that have a hockey team in them have a lot more people that like hockey in them. Cities that don't, don't. We don't have a GW store and the way GW does business with not only customers but retailers leads me to believe that unless they can get their stores to acheive miraculous growth, they are going to create an intense demand for competitor's products as time goes on.
It does seem like this report has had a lot less support from pro-GW folks than even the next most recent one. The midyear report seemed to have a lot more folks defending GW's/Kirby's decisions.
The consensus seems to be that while 40K is still the biggest game, and that while it may still be growing that it is now growing much slower?
Or even shrinking?
That Kirby's preamble was... odd? (Odd enough that a goodly number of folks thought that it was a hoax or joke.)
And that nobody seems to have any idea if GW even can be turned back around at this point?
That the one-man stores are doing a great deal of harm to GW's visibility? (The only reason for having GW stores is to increase visibility - one man stores with limited hours, in low visibility areas... kind of defeats that purpose.)
That pricing has reached the point where sales are dropping, so that even all of this cost cutting has merely kept them even, with flat revenue?
Does that seem to sum things up?
This is really not a good position for GW to be in.
Perhaps it may help at this point to summarise reactions to the report.
The Optimistic View GW suffered a drop in revenue but they are still making profits. They have money in the bank, no debt, and have cut their cost base even further. Sales drop last year was a temporary blip. New management is going to sort it out. The stage is set for a roaring return to ever increasing profits next year.
The Neutral View GW suffered a serious drop in revenue, however they still are in profit and have money in the bank. If they can get their sales back up, everything will be fine. There are various ideas for how to do that and it just needs a management who can bring them on. Kirby standing down in favour of new blood may achieve this.
The Pessimistic View GW suffered a serious drop in revenue, i.e. a loss of customers. They don't appear to have a realistic view of why, or how to turn it around, because they don't do any market research. While the company is in profit now, their fixed cost base is high and Cost of Sales is climbing. Another bad year probably will see them into loss making territory. Once that happens they will be in big trouble because there is nothing left to cut.
It still may be possible to turn things around starting now, as there is money in the bank, but this cannot happen while Kirby's and/or Kronies are in charge, and it seems unlikely they will be replaced any time soon as the proposed new CEO won't start for over six months and will be picked by the current krony krew.
The big deal to me is that there's no more fat to trim. As soon as they can't pay a lease because of a bad month (or something) things are going to snowball.
rigeld2 wrote: The big deal to me is that there's no more fat to trim. As soon as they can't pay a lease because of a bad month (or something) things are going to snowball.
There's still a tiny bit more to cut, I'm sure. Just think of the savings if they cut out Kirby & Kompany.
Anyway, there is still a lot GW could do to turn things around, without having to delve too deeply into their cash reserves. Whether or not GW is smart enough to figure any of those things out without any market research, we'll know soon enough. Just look, FFG just announced Star Wars: Armada, a capital ship scaled game. It's too bad GW doesn't have anything like that in their catalog...
The problem with the optimistic view, is that GW plc were in a similar position in 2007.
They had a drop in revenue and profits.And Tom Kirby Admitted the GW management had '..grown fat and lazy on the back of easy success..'
So rather than just increase retail prices, and cut costs to compensate for falling sales volumes.
Tom Kirby decided to hire a new C.E.O. to do something radically different...
Mark Wells pioneered the 'new formula' of cutting costs and raising retail prices, to compensate for falling sales volumes.
Because finding out what customers want with effective marketing, is calling the authority of Tom Kirby in to question.
So will not take place while he is GW plc Chairman.
Tom Kirby believes he has a 'unique insight' into the 'niche market in which GW operates.'
(Well it is easier for Tom Kirby to follow as GW plc s 'niche market' is shrinking year on year. )
GW used to sell minatures and games to a wide selection of people.
Then they focused more on core games.(WHFB, 40k, LoTR.)
Then they focused more on collectors of minatures in this reduced set of games.
Then they focused more on younger collectors in the smaller sub set of collectors of minatures for mainly just one game (40k.).
While Tom Kirby is Chairman at GW plc, I can not see the management making the necessary changes to current business practice to turn things around.
I really hope he retires completely sooner rather than later, to give GW a fighting chance of turning things around.
Does anybody else think The Krony Krew makes a great name for a Ork warband?
If this was the galactic senate I would be making a vote of no confidence for the current management.
I love 40K but I have come to dislike GW a lot. I always thought that if GW took a hit in their chin they might start to turn things around for the better. However, I now feel that there is very little hope for GW as long as the current management is in place. For me the only hope would be to commit exterminatus on the entire upper management and bring in new blood with completely different ideas and values.
I just don't think this is going to happen. Even with Kirby stepping down as CEO I think the new CEO will certainly be one of the Krony Krew and will have little positive impact. I would love to be wrong and see GW return to the glory days but I feel the sun is fading on this Empire.
rigeld2 wrote: The big deal to me is that there's no more fat to trim. As soon as they can't pay a lease because of a bad month (or something) things are going to snowball.
There's still a tiny bit more to cut, I'm sure. Just think of the savings if they cut out Kirby & Kompany.
I'd love to see that.
"So we can't cut in the design studio, because they actually generate income. We still need to produce the actual miniatures, and they need to be distributed in order to generate income, so we can't cut there. The stores, while one-man and in less attractive locations, generate income and much needed advertisement, so we can't cut anymore there.
Where can we cut costs?....tut tut tut"
*Looks at Kirby and board-members*
"Tell me again. How is it you actually generate any kind of income for the company?"
rigeld2 wrote: The big deal to me is that there's no more fat to trim. As soon as they can't pay a lease because of a bad month (or something) things are going to snowball.
There's still a tiny bit more to cut, I'm sure. Just think of the savings if they cut out Kirby & Kompany.
I'd love to see that.
"So we can't cut in the design studio, because they actually generate income. We still need to produce the actual miniatures, and they need to be distributed in order to generate income, so we can't cut there. The stores, while one-man and in less attractive locations, generate income and much needed advertisement, so we can't cut anymore there.
Where can we cut costs?....tut tut tut"
*Looks at Kirby and board-members*
"Tell me again. How is it you actually generate any kind of income for the company?"
Kirby was paid I think £517,000 last year, plus £45,000 pension fund contribution. He also got the dividends on his 8% + shareholding in the company. To be fair every shareholder got a divi regardless of employment status, though to be fair in another way, the fact that the chairman and CEO of the company have a big role in deciding on dividends there could be said to be a conflict of interest. OTOH it is up to the shareholders voting at the AGM to approve the annual compensation plan for executives, though again since Kirby is a significant shareholder again there might be said to be a conflict of interest.
rigeld2 wrote: The big deal to me is that there's no more fat to trim. As soon as they can't pay a lease because of a bad month (or something) things are going to snowball.
There's still a tiny bit more to cut, I'm sure. Just think of the savings if they cut out Kirby & Kompany.
I'd love to see that.
"So we can't cut in the design studio, because they actually generate income. We still need to produce the actual miniatures, and they need to be distributed in order to generate income, so we can't cut there. The stores, while one-man and in less attractive locations, generate income and much needed advertisement, so we can't cut anymore there.
Where can we cut costs?....tut tut tut"
*Looks at Kirby and board-members*
"Tell me again. How is it you actually generate any kind of income for the company?"
To be honest,
I can't help but think that complaints on dakka is hardly turning the company around..
GW/KIRBY don't do market research.. That way they don't had to show their investors that research.. (Which IMHO would be bad... Very bad)...
So why are Dakkanuaghts not getting together and... I don't know.. If not a market research document then a petition to all the major investing companies.. (Without nerd rage or preamble)
There are enough members that someone would now how to present a professional dossier... And it would at least have a chance to do so much more than nerd rage over first world problems..
Inquisitor Bob wrote: To be honest,
I can't help but think that complaints on dakka is hardly turning the company around..
GW/KIRBY don't do market research.. That way they don't had to show their investors that research.. (Which IMHO would be bad... Very bad)...
So why are Dakkanuaghts not getting together and... I don't know.. If not a market research document then a petition to all the major investing companies.. (Without nerd rage or preamble)
There are enough members that someone would now how to present a professional dossier... And it would at least have a chance to do so much more than nerd rage over first world problems..
Because the investors don't care if we're happy or not, they don't care if GW are refining their plastic from cute orphans, all they care about is a dividend, and, in the main, they have received it.
The only practical option on the table is to withhold as much cash as possible from GW at every opportunity, buying third party, second hand, buying from independents so GW only receive wholesale value, cumulatively it will all count. If enough people are dissatisfied enough to do this, then their income will fall, they will be unable to pay a dividend and then everyone in a position to affect change will have to act.
Inquisitor Bob wrote: To be honest,
I can't help but think that complaints on dakka is hardly turning the company around..
GW/KIRBY don't do market research.. That way they don't had to show their investors that research.. (Which IMHO would be bad... Very bad)...
So why are Dakkanuaghts not getting together and... I don't know.. If not a market research document then a petition to all the major investing companies.. (Without nerd rage or preamble)
There are enough members that someone would now how to present a professional dossier... And it would at least have a chance to do so much more than nerd rage over first world problems..
Because the investors don't care if we're happy or not, they don't care if GW are refining their plastic from cute orphans, all they care about is a dividend, and, in the main, they have received it.
The only practical option on the table is to withhold as much cash as possible from GW at every opportunity, buying third party, second hand, buying from independents so GW only receive wholesale value, cumulatively it will all count. If enough people are dissatisfied enough to do this, then their income will fall, they will be unable to pay a dividend and then everyone in a position to affect change will have to act.
Yeah, exactly what Azrael said. While you can always say the typical "companies exist to make money" blah-blah-blah argument, there is a considerable difference in the GW of older years versus the GW today. And that difference is that the current GW does not value their customers. At all. In any way. In fact, they probably think we are simply big kids who mindlessly buy models they themselves see little merit in.
It keeps going back to the TSR thing, over and over. They seem to think that having consideration for customer perceptions if a foolish idea to be derided. They compare themselves to Apple, except Apple actually *does* try to make a product their customers want. They've done tons of research they have a hug marketing campaign.
Kirby must have been watching Futurama at one point and say Fry saying "Shut up and take my money!" and, with a tear in his eye, thought "if only all of our customers were like that!"
That's not a great strategy.. And would probably take 10 years to fruition..
My point is investors aren't stupid... They know where their dividends come from, and who pays for that profit.. And they know it's not Kirby.. And when a large percentage publicly boycott due to policy then it in their interest if not their JOBS to a least investigate further..
They leave Kirby alone to do his job because... As far as they know.. He IS the industry expert he says he is.. And they have no idea just how out of touch with the industry and his customers he is... But they're professional enough to know how much an out of touch company will cost them unmanaged..
As has been pointed out, GW is small potatoes, someone characterised them as the sort of company you'd give to the Junior or Intern to manage at the investor's end.
The investors simply don't care enough to get involved.
If you managed to convince one or more that there was a problem, they wouldn't very likely get involved, they'd more than likely just sell their stake, which, if handled incorrectly, could devalue the stock price, but that's just a made up number anyway, it makes very little difference to the running of the company, the income from customers buying stuff is immensely more vital.
It would hurt Kirby personally though.,,,
EDIT
If everyone stopped buying GW's product, it won't take ten years, I guarantee you'd start to see action in ten weeks.
Though, given that there is no reaction and sales are already falling... the reaction of investors might just be to divest themselves of the stock, until some folks buy it - just to sell at the dead cat bounce.
GW is small enough potatoes that they might not bother to revive it.
Yeah, he can gauge how good a lawyer or game designer someone is by how firm their handshake is and how much their eyes twinkle. THAT is people skills, people.
Inquisitor Bob wrote: And it would at least have a chance to do so much more than nerd rage over first world problems..
What, like that there you just posted?
I don't think there's much anybody can do at this point. Write a letter? Get people to stop - or merely reduce - spending? Sounds too much like the weekly call to boycott or petition that used to go on at Warseer. At the very outset it'll be like trying to herd cats, and if you even manage that no-one important will likely care. (Especially, as TheAuldGrump says, sales are already going down the pan)
I'm content to sit and watch, whatever happens. I don't really want GW to collapse before turning sane, but I did whatever amount of grieving is due to a toy shop, long ago.
Inquisitor Bob wrote: That's not a great strategy.. And would probably take 10 years to fruition..
Errr...its pretty much the best strategy. And really the only one guaranteed to work. It'd also take a lot less than 10 years.
If you stop buying, and I stop buying, and Azrael stops buying, etc, ad nauseum, eventually enough people stop to make an impact. Clearly we've all reached a certain point, seeing as sales have continued to drop, and revenue decreased in spite of increased prices. Sounds like a lot of people have left GW in recent times.
Unless you have a better strategy, I'm all ears. Corporations speak money. I'm speaking their language by not saying a thing.
He can be shown the door and get a golden parachute or the company and investors just wait for his retirement where he still gets compensated through share buyback, dividends, pension or whatever else he is due. Plus a non exec role.
Like others have said GW is too small for most investment funds to bother taking too much trouble over. I have seen funds do company take overs for hundreds of millions - see the business falter - and not bat an eyelid.
Money talks and in a world where the mention of trillions is now commonplace - a trifle - the success or failure of a small toy soldier company is way beyond notice.
Azreal13 wrote: Because the investors don't care if we're happy or not, they don't care if GW are refining their plastic from cute orphans, all they care about is a dividend, and, in the main, they have received it.
Contrary to popular belief, most investors do not jump for joy just because dividends are paid. Most want the value of their investment to increase. Dividends do not necessarily do that and, considering the stock value lost this year, do little to offset that loss. In addition, most industrial shareholders (like GW's vast majority), do not like dividends because they create UBIT (unrelated business income tax) for the fund.
Inquisitor Bob wrote: They leave Kirby alone to do his job because... As far as they know.. He IS the industry expert he says he is.. And they have no idea just how out of touch with the industry and his customers he is... But they're professional enough to know how much an out of touch company will cost them unmanaged..
They leave Kirby alone because they don't care. If he tanks the value of the company, investors can just sell from his and buy stock in a company not so mismanaged. I agree that probably most fund investors do not understand their market but a lot of their retail ones do. Additionally, the funds may not understand the market and up until this report Kirby might have had them snowed. But any investor realizes complete incompetence when they read a general statement, from any company, of "we don't do market research because we know better than the market" when the revenues a tanking and you open up a report by commenting about how bad your numbers are.
Investors are not that stupid and it has little to do with knowing the market and everything to do with simple business common sense.
Azreal13 wrote: Because the investors don't care if we're happy or not, they don't care if GW are refining their plastic from cute orphans, all they care about is a dividend, and, in the main, they have received it.
Contrary to popular belief, most investors do not jump for joy just because dividends are paid. Most want the value of their investment to increase. Dividends do not necessarily do that and, considering the stock value lost this year, do little to offset that loss. In addition, most industrial shareholders (like GW's vast majority), do not like dividends because they create UBIT (unrelated business income tax) for the fund.
I'm aware, it was more a case of simplifying the point for the sake of brevity.
thetallestgiraffe wrote: I actually think that GW's idea of charging crapton for their models has actually had some positive effects for their product sales that aren't showing, and here's why; there will 100% always be a very large amount of people who will buy their stuff so long as it is made. Why? Because we've (I am one of them) have spent a RIDICULOUS amount of money on it. For me to start to play another board game now is an incredibly stupid idea because
a) like most gamers I know I only have time for one game, and that game is going to be the one that I have put the money into
b) I've put this much money into them that I will take the dicking around because if I quit the hobby I have wasted thousands on their stuff, never to use it again.
c) People don't know other systems than WHFB/40k and assume all wargames just work like that.
Fact is... they don't.
There are many, many games that have streamlined rules. You know, rules where you can play with a beginner using the actual rules and not some half-assed toned down version. DBA's combat rules span over... 5 pages! And yet, it's a hugely popular historical ruleset, not something that's only played by 8 year old kids (they usually play 40k). Streamlined doesn't mean dumbed down.
Or maybe Go and Chess are the dumbest games ever created by the human mind.
There are many, many games that don't require a huge monetary investment. Then again, DBA. Three armies, and enough spare unit to build a forth one cost me... less than £50 (ship. incl.). Wanna start X-Wing? Just buy two starter packs, one Y-Wing, one TIE Advanced (because, hey... it's Vader's ship!) and you're done. Cost me less than 100€.
A naval wargame perhaps? Just ordered a 1200+pts french fleet for Trafalgar. 20£. Yup, that's a twenty. Including shipping, of course.
And there are many, many games that don't require you to invest lots of time. DBA again! Most games last less than one hour. X-Wing again! No painting, you just unpack all the stuff and you're good to go. Trafalgar again! My french fleet is made of seven whips, and while I may spend some time to do some rigging, it's by no means necessary, especially in the 1:2400 scale.
And maybe these three things are GW's current problem.
thetallestgiraffe wrote: I actually think that GW's idea of charging crapton for their models has actually had some positive effects for their product sales that aren't showing, and here's why; there will 100% always be a very large amount of people who will buy their stuff so long as it is made. Why? Because we've (I am one of them) have spent a RIDICULOUS amount of money on it. For me to start to play another board game now is an incredibly stupid idea because
a) like most gamers I know I only have time for one game, and that game is going to be the one that I have put the money into
b) I've put this much money into them that I will take the dicking around because if I quit the hobby I have wasted thousands on their stuff, never to use it again.
This is what is referred to as the "Sunk Cost Fallacy."
In a nutshell, the money you've put into GW in the past is gone. You're not going to get it back. No matter how long you stick with the game, that money is gone. The money you've spent in the past is not going to make the product any better of an investment, and this emotional attachment you have to money you've spent in the past is preventing you from making better, more well informed decisions with your money going forward. Continuing on with GW might very well be the best financial bet for your future, but merely sticking with it because of the money you've spent in the past is a self-limiting rationale.
It's the same reason that sports teams stick with high-priced stars long after they stop being productive on the team. How often do you hear a statement, "They can't bench Player X; he's got a $XX Million contract!" It ignores the fact that the money is already spent and has no bearing on what the best decision for the future might be.
The Misconception: You make rational decisions based on the future value of objects, investments and experiences.
The Truth: Your decisions are tainted by the emotional investments you accumulate, and the more you invest in something the harder it becomes to abandon it.
I learned about Sunk Cost fallacy in Economics 101-102. Kind of one of the contributing factors against the idea that humans are rational agents we can rely on to steer economies
Would this pitfall in economic thinking explain GW's current apparent/predicted doubling-down of their (allegedly) failing business strategy?
sciencemile wrote: I learned about Sunk Cost fallacy in Economics 101-102. Kind of one of the contributing factors against the idea that humans are rational agents we can rely on to steer economies
Would this pitfall in economic thinking explain GW's current apparent/predicted doubling-down of their (allegedly) failing business strategy?
I'd argue that no, it isn't. In their minds, nothing is wrong. You have to acknowledge a problem on some level to start into the Sunk Cost Fallacy.
Ward is out and isn't that the same time period that James from Mantic went to GW.
Can James turn things around for GW with better rules writing and better codecii? Is this change in the air for GW and a more prosperous company in the future?
If the share price continues to fall, it likely means one or more of the institutional investors is slowly selling out. To my knowledge, they generally divest slowly so as not to cause a panic because they own so many shares.
thetallestgiraffe wrote: I honestly think that people put too much emphasis on these people that do jump ship compared to those who stick around. For every person that has stopped the game due to what they feel is unfair pricing there are many more who stick around because they aren't unhappy enough to change and the pricing has caused them to commit to the game for the long haul.
As a fellow Australian, I don't know how someone can be knowledgeable of the greater hobby and not feel abused when seeing the prices Games Workshop feel they need to charge for their products, especially seeing the effort they've gone through trying to stop us (in particular, Australians and New Zealanders). They're even, right now, trying to put through the limitations they did in the US to stop stockists selling their product online if they don't have a brick and mortar store. There's an investigatory statement on the ACCC's website right now.
Another point - if you've sunk thousands of dollars into 40k, what more do you have to buy? I sunk just over a grand into my Tyranids at full retail, which has gotten me well over 2000pts and a bio-titan. There's not much that you're going to miss out on trying a new game. Your 40k stuff doesn't immediately melt into a puddle of plastic and aerated resin.
Personally, I recently decided to give Malifaux a try. It cost me about $120, which got me the rulebook, a crew (Lilith) and an additional box (Nephilim) which puts me at the maximum point level. Even if I was still actively buying stuff for my Tyranids, that would be what, one less Harpy? To have a complete list and the rules for another game to try?
I personally don't feel the need to 'commit for the long haul' to a company that is actively trying to rob me while removing content to later rob me by asking me to buy it separately, when there's plenty of companies out there who want my money and are willing to give me value for it.
Nor does the value of the stock necessarily indicate the health of the company.
In this case... I believe the stock to be over valued, but that has more to do with the stock market than what the survival of the company looks like.
I sometimes wonder if a good deal of the initial stock for GW was bought by gamers, folks that wanted a slice of GW to call their own... Only for that first wave to sell of the stock, bit by bit, as life happens, as life so often does.
College, marriage, a child, a child going to college....
thetallestgiraffe wrote: I honestly think that people put too much emphasis on these people that do jump ship compared to those who stick around. For every person that has stopped the game due to what they feel is unfair pricing there are many more who stick around because they aren't unhappy enough to change and the pricing has caused them to commit to the game for the long haul.
As a fellow Australian, I don't know how someone can be knowledgeable of the greater hobby and not feel abused when seeing the prices Games Workshop feel they need to charge for their products, especially seeing the effort they've gone through trying to stop us (in particular, Australians and New Zealanders). They're even, right now, trying to put through the limitations they did in the US to stop stockists selling their product online if they don't have a brick and mortar store. There's an investigatory statement on the ACCC's website right now.
Another point - if you've sunk thousands of dollars into 40k, what more do you have to buy? ...
... ...
Since GW frequently change the main rulebook and the individual codexes, you need to buy new rules and codexes for any army you own, or you fall out of step with everyone else. Since new rules and codexes also introduce powerful new units like Flyers and Lords of War, you also need to buy new model kits or your army becomes weaker as time goes on as other people's armies get upgraded. Not to mention units being written out of the rules -- I have two Mycetic Spore pods, for instance -- which reduce the army you already own.
The way around this is not to stick with an older edition like 5th or some agreed mash-up of editions. (4th edition Tau codex is rubbish, for example, so you would need to use some stuff from 6th.) This can work as long as your local playing group agrees.
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TheAuldGrump wrote: Nor does the value of the stock necessarily indicate the health of the company.
In this case... I believe the stock to be over valued, but that has more to do with the stock market than what the survival of the company looks like.
I sometimes wonder if a good deal of the initial stock for GW was bought by gamers, folks that wanted a slice of GW to call their own... Only for that first wave to sell of the stock, bit by bit, as life happens, as life so often does.
College, marriage, a child, a child going to college....
The Auld Grump
Yes, that could easily be true.
Over 40% of the shares are held by people whose holdings are under 3%.
thetallestgiraffe wrote: I honestly think that people put too much emphasis on these people that do jump ship compared to those who stick around. For every person that has stopped the game due to what they feel is unfair pricing there are many more who stick around because they aren't unhappy enough to change and the pricing has caused them to commit to the game for the long haul.
As a fellow Australian, I don't know how someone can be knowledgeable of the greater hobby and not feel abused when seeing the prices Games Workshop feel they need to charge for their products, especially seeing the effort they've gone through trying to stop us (in particular, Australians and New Zealanders). They're even, right now, trying to put through the limitations they did in the US to stop stockists selling their product online if they don't have a brick and mortar store. There's an investigatory statement on the ACCC's website right now.
Another point - if you've sunk thousands of dollars into 40k, what more do you have to buy? ...
... ...
Since GW frequently change the main rulebook and the individual codexes, you need to buy new rules and codexes for any army you own, or you fall out of step with everyone else. Since new rules and codexes also introduce powerful new units like Flyers and Lords of War, you also need to buy new model kits or your army becomes weaker as time goes on as other people's armies get upgraded. Not to mention units being written out of the rules -- I have two Mycetic Spore pods, for instance -- which reduce the army you already own.
Well yeah, but at the point of having sunk 'thousands' of dollars into the game, you're probably coasting on what you have. New editions would mean a new book, new codex, some new kits if you want them. You're not spending thousands of dollars again on an edition change. Depending on your competitiveness, there's even less to buy since you could mostly be looking at new kits.
Upgrading to 7th edition means paying £50 for the rules and £60 for the already obsolete 6th edition codexes for Tau and Tyranids.
My armies will still be uncompetitive in the sense of being at an automatic disadvantage in casual play against any player who owns the new types of units -- flyers, LoW, and so on -- that were added into the game in 6th edition. Realistically I would be looking at another £150-ish to buy a Riptide, a Flyrant and a couple of AA units, so the total bill for the new edition is going to be £250 to £300. That is something like $500 AUD. I don't actually like Flyers and so on.
If you are saying this is not the same as buying a complete new army, obviously you are right, but it is still a lot of money, especially when I look at what I could buy for say X-Wing or many other games. I could for instance buy Twilight Imperium III, and Rune Wars, and Super Dungeon Explore and have change for some expansion sets.
If I don't want to spend all that money, my 40K armies are still perfectly useable with the 4th and 5th edition rules, which I still own as do many people, or I can make an agreement with a potential opponent to play using 6th edition, which I own, but not to use any of the 6th and 7th edition units.
A stock chart over the course of a month doesn't necessarily mean anything. Look at July 21st, the stock was lower than it is currently.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Nor does the value of the stock necessarily indicate the health of the company.
In this case... I believe the stock to be over valued, but that has more to do with the stock market than what the survival of the company looks like.
I sometimes wonder if a good deal of the initial stock for GW was bought by gamers, folks that wanted a slice of GW to call their own... Only for that first wave to sell of the stock, bit by bit, as life happens, as life so often does.
College, marriage, a child, a child going to college....
The Auld Grump
I think it shows anticipation of the end of year report, and peoples reaction to it.
I also think people re reading it are possibly wondering about their investment.
Taken from GW share chat
c4darkmane
reading this i feel they have their head in the sand, further more they dont appear to acknowledge the competition, yes they are the only people who make their branded items, however a portion of their community is made up of people who like strategy tabletop games and will jump ship if another producer has a better game. with that in mind both Privateer Press and Fantasy Flight have been gaining market share. then we have people who will play the game but by models either from the 2nd hand market or go to companies who make similar looking models and in some cases better quality or more unique looking figures.
Kickstarter has funded a large amount of miniatures games over the last year and while they may not last, they buzz created by these launches could be drawing attention away from Games Workshop. One company Mantic have been quiet successfully using kickstarter for their miniature games, acting almost as a pre-order system which could minimise losses by gauging the appeal of the product before they go into full production.
Hi Fagen39, while i agree with everything else youve posted, in defence of GamesWorkshop they do produce e-books both for their novels and rules of the game for a variety of operating systems, however they seem quiet expensive.
Oldgasbag yes in the store they have cut back on their IP to only 3 ranges of which Lord of the Rings seems to be slowly falling away in popularity. however they licences out to fantasyflight the rights to produce roleplay books and boardgames.
Kilkrazy wrote: Their income from licences amounts to a small percentage of their total turnover. GW lives and dies by the two core games of 40K and Fantasy.
Which, by all accounts, seems to have become just the one game, 40k, which may also be on the way out...
Kilkrazy wrote: Their income from licences amounts to a small percentage of their total turnover. GW lives and dies by the two core games of 40K and Fantasy.
Which, by all accounts, seems to have become just the one game, 40k, which may also be on the way out...
Fantasy seems being unplayable due to bad ruleset and partly being much more expensive than 40k.
The ruleset is not actually too bad in 8th edition. It's not great but it's okay. The main problem is the huge numbers of expensive troops required to make an army. Fantasy armies are even more expensive than 40K armies.
If I don't want to spend all that money, my 40K armies are still perfectly useable with the 4th and 5th edition rules, which I still own as do many people, or I can make an agreement with a potential opponent to play using 6th edition, which I own, but not to use any of the 6th and 7th edition units.
Up to a point. If you've got a group that like that idea, then you're set. But as time passes, you'll find fewer and fewer people who play those older editions, or who can even make an army without the newer units. I know several people who cannot get a 1500 point list together if you tell them not to use things like riptides and wraithknights.
Da Boss wrote: The ruleset is not actually too bad in 8th edition. It's not great but it's okay. The main problem is the huge numbers of expensive troops required to make an army. Fantasy armies are even more expensive than 40K armies.
Seconded.
Fantasy desperately needs a new rule set.
But it seems that GW puts all its eggs into 40k now. A stupid decision.
Their issue is that they forgot all about Fantasy.
If they could fall back and make the fantasy line products compatible with each other, they would give people a reason to buy it. Instead, the RPG went in one direction, the tabletop went in another, and the whole line suffers from the misdirection and urge to sell expensive power rangers.
Combine that with the LOTR shenanigans, and its little wonder that GW claims now, after all these years that they sell toys and shell out the IP for others to do better with.
I'm not sure a new rules set would fix fantasy. People want a big units fantasy battles game, but they just don't want to pay those prices. They could bring it back to 20 man blocks as standard I guess.
If I don't want to spend all that money, my 40K armies are still perfectly useable with the 4th and 5th edition rules, which I still own as do many people, or I can make an agreement with a potential opponent to play using 6th edition, which I own, but not to use any of the 6th and 7th edition units.
Up to a point. If you've got a group that like that idea, then you're set. But as time passes, you'll find fewer and fewer people who play those older editions, or who can even make an army without the newer units. I know several people who cannot get a 1500 point list together if you tell them not to use things like riptides and wraithknights.
I think the way forwards may be to skip two or three editions and return to 40K in a couple of years if GW is still around.
Da Boss wrote: I'm not sure a new rules set would fix fantasy. People want a big units fantasy battles game, but they just don't want to pay those prices. They could bring it back to 20 man blocks as standard I guess.
I'm expecting a brand new 3 volume slipcase edition of fantasy rushed before christmas. Bring in unbound so people can make OP mix and match armies - sorry, "forge a narrative". Change a couple of phases slightly to force existing players to buy it at £50+ a ruleset. Oh yeah and put emphasis on massive new kits with the most expensive plastic:cash spent ratio. Voila; WHFB 9. :-(
Da Boss wrote: I'm not sure a new rules set would fix fantasy. People want a big units fantasy battles game, but they just don't want to pay those prices. They could bring it back to 20 man blocks as standard I guess.
I'm expecting a brand new 3 volume slipcase edition of fantasy rushed before christmas. Bring in unbound so people can make OP mix and match armies - sorry, "forge a narrative". Change a couple of phases slightly to force existing players to buy it at £50+ a ruleset. Oh yeah and put emphasis on massive new kits with the most expensive plastic:cash spent ratio. Voila; WHFB 9. :-(
Well, the upcoming Grey Knights codex shows no current plans to adjust for the worsening financials of GW, though whether future releases will be radically different is another issue.
But with Grey Knights, we see all of the typical behaviors- increased price by ~60% for a hardback cover, removal of units that are then ported into dataslates, and barely anything in terms of actual changes to the rules in the codex. And some might say "well, if it's not broke why fix it?" to which I would reply "great, now why are we having to buy a nearly identical book??"
Even with new models I don't see much appeal for these sorts of books. Seriously, what argument can people make other than it's more "current?" I don't want a subscription-based game...at least, not with the frequency level and lack of quality change that the new rulebooks/codices have been running at.
I can really only see die-hard, buy-it-no-mater-what-because-it's-GW fans interested excited about this. Some will drop out, and the majority of the customer base will begrudgingly go along with it. Is that what GW wants? It's customers begrudgingly buying their updates?
Accolade wrote: Is that what GW wants? It's customers begrudgingly buying their updates?
Current management doesn't care how you feel - they just assume you will buy whatever they sell. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who do buy whatever they sell and on top of that have seemingly convinced themselves that it is GREAT. If you read the news threads just regarding the GK example, you can find an unhealthy number of people who are not only satisfied with paying more for less - but seem to think it is a good thing.
Yep the clear sidegrade and regurgitation turned me off within one purchase cycle and "murderfang and the sleigh" were the final nails in the coffin. I started tail of fifth, bought into sixth - BRB + 2 dexes (CSM+SM) and I'm already not buying any more. I don't regret my entry to 40k because I'm really enjoying assembling and painting my armies and will no doubt use them with another system at some stage but if GW wants to stop me buying their stuff, that's their loss. There's plenty more fish in the sea now that I'm into tabletop. Mantic and FFG get the lions share of my monies int he future I imagine, with some DZC for good measure. And there's always China for anything like primarchs ; p
Don't dare speak of such "negative prospects" to folks willing to purchase what was once in one now in three books for triple the price. That would be just dreadful.
I actually might buy a Sled just for lulz because it's that stupid, but if that's the market you want to cater to, more power to yah. I can't see how a rehash and points tweak of the same codex is going to win anyone over, more so with the splitting of rules and forcing purchase of Apple devices (I have one, for the record) for Codex Inquisition (or is it in ebook form now?). Either way, some folks don't want that, so they aren't going to be pleased that they are suddenly and surprisingly losing access to units they based their army on and now only behind a paywall and in a manner they don't like.
I could see getting a sled (preferably second hand form someone who realized "wtf was I thinking?!") and then trolling the hell out of it/gw/sw's. I still "get" every codex, but I still feel cheated because it's barely worth the effort anymore as in many ways they're objectively worse than the previous codices.
The business model of DLC is, depending on implementation good, accepted or downright disgusting on PC. Given the extra barriers to it on tabletop rules I think the best possible is "acceptable" but GW does it even worse than I've seen from the bad implementations on PC, and more like the bad microtransactions from mobile games that thankfully I have no experience with.
I no longer even go out of my way to research the new releases. I get enough out of the release threads and leaks to make a sensible thought of "No."
It's true, I might secretly hold out hope that "this one, this will be the release that makes me come back!" Blood Angels could do it. I doubt it, at this point, if this is the trend. My last actual army is pretty much unplayable, if the rumors are true, without at least a $50 model purchase (more Paladins) not including the new dex.
Well, for decades, the only time a new codex is genuinely a marvellous and welcome production is when it is either a brand new faction (Tau in 2001) or a complete revision/rerelease of a long neglected existing faction (Dark Eldar in 2010 after a 10+ year gap).
Everything else is an upgrade containing some tweaks, a few new units and accompanying new rules.
Kilkrazy wrote: Well, for decades, the only time a new codex is genuinely a marvellous and welcome production is when it is either a brand new faction (Tau in 2001) or a complete revision/rerelease of a long neglected existing faction (Dark Eldar in 2010 after a 10+ year gap).
Everything else is an upgrade containing some tweaks, a few new units and accompanying new rules.
Spoken like someone who doesn't play CSM/BT/SoB (Or: "everything else" isn't quite true )
I think he means that they were a downgrade rather than an upgrade, or maybe a sidegrade. CSM is certainly highly flawed at both a rule and fluff level though I didn't play the one before it whereas the 'necron dex is despite some poor internal balancing good on both fronts and as I understand it a huge upgrade ruleswise over the previous one and a huge retcon of the previous fluff. That's worth a new 'dex. The CSM was not (imo).
Baragash wrote: CSM got gutted, Sisters got "disappeared" and BT got rolled into SM.
All I'm saying is that sometimes Codex releases are A Bad Thing* too
*Depending on your view point. I'd also add axing Chapter Approved to that list.
You are clearly not the discerning collector of the best models in the world that Kirby - and therefore GW - wants/needs/has.
Every time I think about the "objects of jewel-like wonder" I can't help but imagine TK all Gollum-like in the Lenton basement with a Finecast Calgar on his palm whispering "my precioussssssssssssss...."
So are we thinking that the release of this Grey Knight codex demonstrates GW in its death throes? Not a single new kit for no good reason. They could have given us a bike unit or something.
It's strange as I imagine Grey Knights were one of the more popular armies of the last few years.
Medium of Death wrote: So are we thinking that the release of this Grey Knight codex demonstrates GW in its death throes? Not a single new kit for no good reason. They could have given us a bike unit or something.
It's strange as I imagine Grey Knights were one of the more popular armies of the last few years.
I wouldn't say death throes as such but it seems clear (at least to me anyway) from the recent ramping up of the release schedule combined with the drop in new kits that GW are looking for the quickest return as possible. It is far, far easier for them to throw together some artwork, fluff and rules into a 'new' book and get it printed than it is to design, tool and produce a new plastic kit, not to mention the large investment costs in doing so. Obviously, GW are at the stage now where they need to start making positive figures and I guess they figure the best way to push up sales in the short term is to churn out new books so people have to buy them. However, one thing I think it is indicative of, is just how short term GW are thinking right now. This recent bad report has really affected their outlook I think. They are thinking about how to drive up sales in the immediate now rather than worrying about the long term future. I can't help but think it will be damaging in the long run for them though.
I don't think that death throes is a huge exaggeration. They must be starting to hit diminishing returns on the new accelerated rules release schedule, given that it seems like each new book has less effort put into it than the last.
Can't see how Grey Knights will help. They aren't really a true SM army, they are more an add on for when fighting Chaos, or that's how I remember them being when they bought the 1st Codex out. Nice models, but all geared up for smacking Daemons down, either by HH weapons or weapons with short / standard ranges. Can't see that much of a rush for them.
Medium of Death wrote: So are we thinking that the release of this Grey Knight codex demonstrates GW in its death throes? Not a single new kit for no good reason. They could have given us a bike unit or something.
It's strange as I imagine Grey Knights were one of the more popular armies of the last few years.
Grey Knights suddenly became very popular when their previous codex was released because it was very strong and a whole load of new models came out at the same time.
It is a bit odd that GW would bother to release a new codex without models if they see themselves as a model selling company. However I think part of their strategy is to make a lot of money from the books too.
Every time I think about the "objects of jewel-like wonder" I can't help but imagine TK all Gollum-like in the Lenton basement with a Finecast Calgar on his palm whispering "my precioussssssssssssss...."
Definitely has potential to be a fun photochop: Gollum with Kirby's head holding a GW figure...
As far as Codex churning goes...I'm probably going to just ignore it and stick with 6th Ed.
Haven't played 40K in years though still paint & convert on occasion in anticipation of maybe getting back into the game one day.
I have the 6th Ed Space Marine Codex, but have not yet bothered to get the 6th Ed rulebook. I hate the new changes I've been hearing about with 7th Ed, so will probably just get a cheap 6th Ed rulebook off ebay and use that when I play at my club, with 6th Ed being the last edition of 40K I will ever play.
My club is full of veterans of older editions who probably don't care for keeping up to date with GW's garbage so I doubt refusing to upgrade to 7th Ed will affect me very much.
Medium of Death wrote: So are we thinking that the release of this Grey Knight codex demonstrates GW in its death throes? Not a single new kit for no good reason. They could have given us a bike unit or something.
It's strange as I imagine Grey Knights were one of the more popular armies of the last few years.
Grey Knights suddenly became very popular when their previous codex was released because it was very strong and a whole load of new models came out at the same time.
It is a bit odd that GW would bother to release a new codex without models if they see themselves as a model selling company. However I think part of their strategy is to make a lot of money from the books too.
I can understand they do not want to spend money on expensive "assets" like new molds for models and printed works are easy enough to churn out.
If I was in their mindset <shudder> I would produce an add-on sprue(s) much like the BT kit so that the old models would be bought plus the "upgrade" with the latest hotness in it specified by the new codex.
Say we release the new Grey Knight Codex.
It shows some new kit... the "daemon reaper scythe"(tm) which does incredible "D" weapon damage...
There are only two in the upgrade box and must be fielded in a team of at least 6.
It is so heavy it must be wielded by a terminator (moar money!).
But wait, there is more! The Purifiers can channel their flames through the "holy flame focus"(tm) which allows them to use their power at range and on overwatch.
The number of hits are determined by the number of focus added to the group (3 hits per model), you guessed it: only 1 per upgrade pack.
Anyway, I can only channel so much silliness.
Adding well thought out extra fancy bits with some base decorations and maybe some vehicle upgrade pieces may give some bang for the buck and sell some more old models as well.
Wait, I had a much worse thought, use the existing model sprues, drop in the one fancy extra sprue and sell as a complete kit so the ONLY way you can get it is with this "premium" package.
You can always spin-off the sprue as a separate piece later.
Anyway, they kinda do this sort of thing anyway like the multi-kit wonder of the Baneblade.
You guys are overthinking it. They're releasing a new Grey Knights codex because the last one made them a lot of money, so they assume the next one will make them a lot of money.
They have literally no other notion of what to do next, other than, "well this worked before, so it should work again!"
THAT, or maybe somebody actually got on the Internet, read about all the Ward rage, and now they're systematically undoing all the stuff he did after letting him go. However, I seriously doubt that's the case, as it would not match their self-confessed strategy of ignoring market demands.
intresting even though kirby claims his objects of wonder, in an australian court they make the claim that they not that special and they are interchangable with this little lot:
HeroClix, Warmachine, Hordes, Flames of War, Ticket to Ride, Carcassone, Dominion, Battlecry, Diplomacy, Risk, model trains, model scenery, radio controlled vehicles, Dungeons & Dragons, Magic: The Gathering, Star Wars: The Old Republic, World of Warcraft, StarCraft, The Elder Scrolls (series) and Fallout (series).
GW is trying to ban online sales down there.
here is a link to the article explaining what they are up to
http://tencopper.com/article/2014/08/games-workshop-secretly-moves-to-cut-off-australian-online-retailers/
Isn't it about time Oz stores told GW to shove it? If all the Indies stopped selling GW products and concentrated on another systems wouldn't that send GW the middle finger and introduce gamers to another system?
Wolfstan wrote: Isn't it about time Oz stores told GW to shove it? If all the Indies stopped selling GW products and concentrated on another systems wouldn't that send GW the middle finger and introduce gamers to another system?
By and large, that's already happening. While all regions did poorly this past year, the numbers from Australia are particularly dismal.
What's the best course of action when people aren't buying? Make sure your product is sold at less places and a higher price of course! Is it just me or is GW doubling down on all the strategies that put them in this position in the first place?
Toofast wrote: What's the best course of action when people aren't buying? Make sure your product is sold at less places and a higher price of course! Is it just me or is GW doubling down on all the strategies that put them in this position in the first place?
Remember, without any kind of market research, they have no idea what put them in that position.
At the main FLGS in my area though, 40k is still swinging, people seem okay with it and oblivious to GW's problems. They have a RTT coming up, people are excited for the new releases, people are buying things, etc. Boggles the mind; I feel like I'm in a time warp.
wildphilldude wrote: intresting even though kirby claims his objects of wonder, in an australian court they make the claim that they not that special and they are interchangable with this little lot:
HeroClix, Warmachine, Hordes, Flames of War, Ticket to Ride, Carcassone, Dominion, Battlecry, Diplomacy, Risk, model trains, model scenery, radio controlled vehicles, Dungeons & Dragons, Magic: The Gathering, Star Wars: The Old Republic, World of Warcraft, StarCraft, The Elder Scrolls (series) and Fallout (series).
GW is trying to ban online sales down there.
here is a link to the article explaining what they are up to
http://tencopper.com/article/2014/08/games-workshop-secretly-moves-to-cut-off-australian-online-retailers/
I almost didn't read that article because I already knew this was happening but wow. The people being effected by this didn't have a lot to say but even their silence says a lot.
Honestly if this goes through (and with any luck it won't, I know I plan to email Kirbys ramble to the address in that article and point out GW doesn't do market research so when they say WoW is competition they have no way of knowing that) then I think it'll be one of the last nails in GW AUs coffin. Other game systems already seem to have passed 40k by a fair margin in popularity in the online stores that carry more than just GW products, I doubt they will be effected, and people will not flock back to GW direct to get their plastic crack fix like GW seems to think.
Toofast wrote: What's the best course of action when people aren't buying? Make sure your product is sold at less places and a higher price of course! Is it just me or is GW doubling down on all the strategies that put them in this position in the first place?
Remember, without any kind of market research, they have no idea what put them in that position.
At the main FLGS in my area though, 40k is still swinging, people seem okay with it and oblivious to GW's problems. They have a RTT coming up, people are excited for the new releases, people are buying things, etc. Boggles the mind; I feel like I'm in a time warp.
My area is the same way. Positive reaction to the SW releases and codex, constantly growing player base, everyone buying the majority of their stuff at the local GW. However, after reading the last 2 financial reports, we are in the vast minority. A few cities experiencing growth aren't going to make up for all of Australia switching to another system when GW kills their only way to get things for less than organs cost on the black market.
Medium of Death wrote: So are we thinking that the release of this Grey Knight codex demonstrates GW in its death throes? Not a single new kit for no good reason. They could have given us a bike unit or something.
It's strange as I imagine Grey Knights were one of the more popular armies of the last few years.
Not quite. This would have been started several months back, long before Kirby tried to smooth-talk his way out of the reality of GW's current situation.
Wolfstan wrote: Isn't it about time Oz stores told GW to shove it? If all the Indies stopped selling GW products and concentrated on another systems wouldn't that send GW the middle finger and introduce gamers to another system?
There's no point not stocking it, as there's people who still want to buy it. Denying yourself a sale out of spite doesn't make sense as a business.
But I've noticed a supreme lack of promotion of their products. Different stores promote different games to different extents because they have unique customer bases, but aside from a few posted hanging up, not much is done these days to promote GW's products.
Wolfstan wrote: Isn't it about time Oz stores told GW to shove it? If all the Indies stopped selling GW products and concentrated on another systems wouldn't that send GW the middle finger and introduce gamers to another system?
There's no point not stocking it, as there's people who still want to buy it. Denying yourself a sale out of spite doesn't make sense as a business.
But I've noticed a supreme lack of promotion of their products. Different stores promote different games to different extents because they have unique customer bases, but aside from a few posted hanging up, not much is done these days to promote GW's products.
Uhm... there is an excellent reason not to stock it - money is tied up in the product.
It is much better to invest in stock that you are more likely to sell than in stock that will only gather dust.
And GW insists on a $4,000 stock list here in the States - it is likely similar in Oz.
$4,000 is a lot to have tied up in stock that is unlikely to sell through.
Wolfstan wrote: Isn't it about time Oz stores told GW to shove it? If all the Indies stopped selling GW products and concentrated on another systems wouldn't that send GW the middle finger and introduce gamers to another system?
There's no point not stocking it, as there's people who still want to buy it. Denying yourself a sale out of spite doesn't make sense as a business.
But I've noticed a supreme lack of promotion of their products. Different stores promote different games to different extents because they have unique customer bases, but aside from a few posted hanging up, not much is done these days to promote GW's products.
Uhm... there is an excellent reason not to stock it - money is tied up in the product.
It is much better to invest in stock that you are more likely to sell than in stock that will only gather dust.
It does sell, that's why it's stocked. Not stocking it is denying themselves a customer who will go elsewhere. It's just not as promoted anymore. If someone wants to buy it, great, it's money. But effort in trying to get new customers goes to other systems, in my experience.
Wolfstan wrote: Isn't it about time Oz stores told GW to shove it? If all the Indies stopped selling GW products and concentrated on another systems wouldn't that send GW the middle finger and introduce gamers to another system?
There's no point not stocking it, as there's people who still want to buy it. Denying yourself a sale out of spite doesn't make sense as a business.
But I've noticed a supreme lack of promotion of their products. Different stores promote different games to different extents because they have unique customer bases, but aside from a few posted hanging up, not much is done these days to promote GW's products.
Uhm... there is an excellent reason not to stock it - money is tied up in the product.
It is much better to invest in stock that you are more likely to sell than in stock that will only gather dust.
It does sell, that's why it's stocked. Not stocking it is denying themselves a customer who will go elsewhere. It's just not as promoted anymore. If someone wants to buy it, great, it's money. But effort in trying to get new customers goes to other systems, in my experience.
The question is 'Does it sell $4,000 worth in the same amount of time as $4,000 used to buy other product' - and remember, we are talking Oz here...
*Shakes Magic 8 Ball*
SIGNS POINT TO NO
If $4,000 invested in Dystopian Wars sells at 7 times the rate of WH40K then you are better off buying Dystopian Wars product with that $4,000.
Even if you may sell the occasional box o' marines it is a less effective investment.
And the only way that GW will get that message is if people stop buying their overpriced crap!
The Auld Grump - who has indeed stopped buying their overpriced crap.
*EDIT* And, yes, stores do count as people in this instance... and given the price gouging and underhanded tactics being used by GW? Stores in Oz have more reasons not to carry GW than to carry them.
I was a bit rushed when I typed up my post so a little bit more to add.
What is the situation with GW stores in Oz, are they down sizing them like in the UK? If so that's an area of leverage as well. If they aren't able to run more than one table then the Indies are taking up the slack. So my thought is this, and I know it could be a naive thought, but if the Indies got together and the majority agreed to wind down their stock and agreed on promoting another system, would this work?
I know a lot of "GW" gamer's stick with the hobby because they have invested in it or that they are scared of not getting games, but if there is a guarantee of big support for another similar system would that help?
Wolfstan wrote: What is the situation with GW stores in Oz...
You ever see a film called "The Never Ending Story"? Well in that film there was a force called the "Nothing". That's pretty much the state of GW stores in Oz. The store is there, and then it just isn't.
GW have a cheek talking about the 'store experience' when they are cutting back to one man stores than only have a table for demo games. There is no experience to be had. The 'experience' consists of a cramped shop with one person aggressively trying to push product.
GW see independents as an evil to tolerate as they don't have blanket coverage with physical stores, they don't want to supply to independent stores at all. Which is funny, because most independents see GW as an evil to tolerate in order to run a game store. I don't know any independent who enjoys working with GW, they are only stocked because they are very popular. If they stop being popular traders can't wait to drop them.
Wolfstan wrote: What is the situation with GW stores in Oz...
You ever see a film called "The Never Ending Story"? Well in that film there was a force called the "Nothing". That's pretty much the state of GW stores in Oz. The store is there, and then it just isn't.
"These look like big, strong hands. . .don't they?" rumbled the Australian gaming community sadly.
Funny the talk of FLGS and the GW relationship.
I have a "tale of two stores".
In my town the store rage-quit and told GW to stuff-it after pushing a lot of product on them a year later they still could not sell.
Played games with payment / purchasing terms, short shipments, reviewing his store to ensure terms are being met, he literally threw them out of his store when they started telling him what he "should" be doing.
Now he is laughing because GW is trying to weasel their way back in, they are giving him lots of free stuff and purchasing terms are less severe.
He has decided to string them along and see how far it goes and if they give him any lip, slam the door on them again.
He spends the time to hold all kinds of gaming nights, coordinates players on his web page to meet and play, Friday night MTG brings in some 40-50 people at least.
So GW seems to have a love-hate relationship at least with this guy (like many others I suspect).
The other store in the area.
Near two universities and a College.
They have an online store presence and are like a warehouse.
Tabletop games make up about 1/8th their space which is still bigger than some stores, so they have a fair bit of diversity.
For some reason, they consistently cost substantially less than anyone else (as much as 30%!!) on GW stuff.
They even got strange deals where the Imperial Knights came in generic GW boxes than the new fancy cardboard ones but was substantially less.
I witnessed a discussion they had with a GW rep who was telling them what product they "could not have" on a new codex launch.
The store owner pointed to the tabletop area and said "If you cannot fill the space I have allocated to your product, I will find someone who can, end of discussion.".
He got what he wanted.
No GW stores in the area, no other hobby shop for some 20km at least, this guy has scary fast stock turns so can pretty much dictate what he wants.
Even the X-wing shortages were little issue, they always seemed to have something on-hand.
GW cannot compete with either of these FLGS for bodies coming into the door and probably drives them insane with all the other competing product they have on the shelf.
I think they are beginning to understand just how easily their product could be removed from their shelves and the store would barely notice a change in revenue (especially since GW product cannot be listed on the on-line store).
This is only a local specific couple of cases but we are not all that unique here, GW in it's desire to cut out the middle man does not seem to recognize that others can sell their product better than they can. As we all like pointing out (since it seems so insane) GW does not do any market research so they would have no idea what FLGS do for them.
When GW makes it harder and more expensive for independent shops to stock GW games, then obviously there comes a point where the owner will throw up his hands and stop carrying GW, and fill the shelf space with something that is easier to deal with.
Clearly GW think this will force players to buy the stuff from GW directly instead, thus increasing profits. However it is likely also to reduce sales by diminishing the amount of user exposure to GW products.
Once again my mind is led to conclude that GW strategy is for users to continue to buy GW stuff because GW.
Talizvar wrote: In my town the store rage-quit and told GW to stuff-it after pushing a lot of product on them a year later they still could not sell.
Played games with payment / purchasing terms, short shipments, reviewing his store to ensure terms are being met, he literally threw them out of his store when they started telling him what he "should" be doing.
Now he is laughing because GW is trying to weasel their way back in, they are giving him lots of free stuff and purchasing terms are less severe.
He has decided to string them along and see how far it goes and if they give him any lip, slam the door on them again.
He spends the time to hold all kinds of gaming nights, coordinates players on his web page to meet and play, Friday night MTG brings in some 40-50 people at least.
So GW seems to have a love-hate relationship at least with this guy (like many others I suspect).
We had the same thing happen at the FLGS where I play MtG. GW wanted back in after years of being out and basically gave the store a not insignificant amount of product for free. The store tried to order a couple of things for me, which turned out to be GW only. Several months later, after moving virtually no product, the store put the stuff on sale and got rid of it all because they needed shelf space for X-wing and Star Trek table top games.
I think I have been exposed to GW product for so long I forget some fundamental issues with GW's method of marketing.
How the heck do they get new customers / players involved in their product?
How will the average human being even be exposed to them never mind be inspired to buy?
1) FLGS seem to be the logical physical gateway for introduction since they are the go to for casual recreation purchases.
We know where that is headed. They have the single man stores out of the way for less expensive property, foot traffic is basically out then.
2) Google: searched "games" they have it in their name right? Hit the 20th page and gave up, GW not found.
2a) Searched "miniatures" saw RAFM quickly enough, gave up at 20th page... still no GW.
2b) Searched "Space Marine" immediate hit! no wonder they litigate like crazy on that name even if it was not their original idea for a name.
2c) Searched "Toy Soldiers" let us say that is a rather crowded label.
2d) Searched "Wargames", gave up at 20th page.. no GW (really??).
2e) Searched "Tabletop Wargames", gotta get lucky on this... gave up on 10 pages... should have been there... What the frag??
So the main go-to for casual interest inquiry of Google will not get me a direct link to the Games Workshop web site... something REALLY wrong here.
GW is completely stealth on the internet, you would not have any idea they exist at all if not for the existence of fan sites, hobby sites or FLGS.
When they completely pull from all FLGS and hold no events, what mystical thinking makes them think new customers will find them??
GW recruit through their own hobby centres, through independent shops, and through clubs and associations of veterans.
These are the three key marketing channels they have spent the past few years downgrading, gaking on, and pissing off.
There is also social online media, which GW have addressed by closing their forums, their FaceBook pages, and by turning their web site from a resource centre into a shop.
Kilkrazy wrote: GW recruit through their own hobby centres, through independent shops, and through clubs and associations of veterans.
These are the three key marketing channels they have spent the past few years downgrading, gaking on, and pissing off.
There is also social online media, which GW have addressed by closing their forums, their FaceBook pages, and by turning their web site from a resource centre into a shop.
Your are stating their past / present behavior pretty much as I outlined.
What is shocking to me is what is left?
Veterans, social media, even a simple Google search all add up to "no dice".
When they conclude their plan, unless a customer knows who they are they will cease to exist. Then, shortly after, they will cease to exist for real if the existing fan-base is not enough to support them (and the VERY occasional foot traffic into a GW store).
Talizvar wrote: (and the VERY occasional foot traffic into a GW store).
Sad thing is, they think that by eliminating all other outlets to their games, they are going to increase this, which simply isn't true. You're going to have the same amount of traffic in your stores, but now you're not going to have the revenue from the channels you shut down. I simply don't understand their logic. They're trying to effectively corral people into their stores and this might work if it were 1980, but it's not. Competition is out there and it is feeding off of their bad decisions.
Kilkrazy wrote: GW recruit through their own hobby centres, through independent shops, and through clubs and associations of veterans.
These are the three key marketing channels they have spent the past few years downgrading, gaking on, and pissing off.
There is also social online media, which GW have addressed by closing their forums, their FaceBook pages, and by turning their web site from a resource centre into a shop.
Your are stating their past / present behavior pretty much as I outlined.
What is shocking to me is what is left?
Veterans, social media, even a simple Google search all add up to "no dice".
When they conclude their plan, unless a customer knows who they are they will cease to exist. Then, shortly after, they will cease to exist for real if the existing fan-base is not enough to support them (and the VERY occasional foot traffic into a GW store).
Yes, I agree. I don't think GW has a marketing strategy. I cannot see any evidence of it. Everything they do seems to be the opposite of what I think is needed. Maybe I am just stupid.
Kilkrazy wrote: GW recruit through their own hobby centres, through independent shops, and through clubs and associations of veterans.
These are the three key marketing channels they have spent the past few years downgrading, gaking on, and pissing off.
There is also social online media, which GW have addressed by closing their forums, their FaceBook pages, and by turning their web site from a resource centre into a shop.
Your are stating their past / present behavior pretty much as I outlined.
What is shocking to me is what is left?
Veterans, social media, even a simple Google search all add up to "no dice".
When they conclude their plan, unless a customer knows who they are they will cease to exist. Then, shortly after, they will cease to exist for real if the existing fan-base is not enough to support them (and the VERY occasional foot traffic into a GW store).
To be fair, GW has a much more dominating high street presence in the UK. But your points are very well taken. GW cannot survive on UK business alone with its current level of expenditures, and I have not heard a single thing about the one man store model being more advantageous for recruitment, other than possibly being able to afford more brick and mortar stores, but that is a fiction since the data show that GW has closed just about as many stores as it has opened.
Kilkrazy wrote: In the UK the cost of having a shop is a lot more than the cost of having a staff member in it.
I disagree, it is more than possible to have a functional retail space with all bills paid for solidly under £1000 a month (I've let one unit which cost me near £600) but there's a whole load of variables at work to make a generalised statement either way.
A busy store would grab attention, not a busy store that already has 4 people in it and looks cramped. How on earth does a kid drag their folks in with them when there is no room to breath. A least in the old bigger stores there was some space for people to move around in. The new stores to me are kinda like pick up pods. Go in, get want you want and get out.
Wolfstan wrote: A busy store would grab attention, not a busy store that already has 4 people in it and looks cramped. How on earth does a kid drag their folks in with them when there is no room to breath. A least in the old bigger stores there was some space for people to move around in. The new stores to me are kinda like pick up pods. Go in, get want you want and get out.
Not only that, but the attitude of the staff varies from store to store. Some stores have a very aggressive salesman for a manager, which completely turns me off. If I visit a local GW and that is what I get, I'm hesitant to return - I'll just go to my FLGS or online*.
Kilkrazy wrote: In the UK the cost of having a shop is a lot more than the cost of having a staff member in it.
I disagree, it is more than possible to have a functional retail space with all bills paid for solidly under £1000 a month (I've let one unit which cost me near £600) but there's a whole load of variables at work to make a generalised statement either way.
It depends on the location, size of shop and so on, plus there is the cost of the inventory. When I looked in Richmond, Surrey, for my wife, the going price of a lease was £3,000 to £5,000 for a medium size unit in a side street. This was about 2006. IDK how costs have gone up and down since then. GW used to have a medium size unit in Richmond, next to the railway station -- i.e. a high footfall location -- and closed it about 2007.
Kilkrazy wrote: In the UK the cost of having a shop is a lot more than the cost of having a staff member in it.
I disagree, it is more than possible to have a functional retail space with all bills paid for solidly under £1000 a month (I've let one unit which cost me near £600) but there's a whole load of variables at work to make a generalised statement either way.
It depends on the location, size of shop and so on, plus there is the cost of the inventory. When I looked in Richmond, Surrey, for my wife, the going price of a lease was £3,000 to £5,000 for a medium size unit in a side street. This was about 2006. IDK how costs have gone up and down since then. GW used to have a medium size unit in Richmond, next to the railway station -- i.e. a high footfall location -- and closed it about 2007.
Exactly, that's what I meant with too many variables, rent, rates etc will vary with location, both in terms of where in a town and where in the country you're looking. You then factor in whether you're basing the comparison on a "fair" wage or simply a legal one and it gets murky.
FWIW, most GW locations in my county that I've seen would be very much at the bottom end in terms of rent and rates based on their location IMO (the local one is in a row with charity shops, a laundrette and a hairdresser, not exactly business that are known for moving into prestige high street locations) but I'm sure they have other stores in more prominent locations elsewhere (at least until the lease is up for renewal and they can move so,wwhere else to cut costs!)
The approach to stores shows how out of touch GW really is. A store everywhere might work in the UK, but never in North America. They're pissing off the people who would otherwise be advocating their game.
WayneTheGame wrote: The approach to stores shows how out of touch GW really is. A store everywhere might work in the UK, but never in North America. They're pissing off the people who would otherwise be advocating their game.
I can actually somewhat forgive this, as other, much larger companies have made similar mistakes in international markets.
One example I've heard from an old GM exec is how Toyota USA was pushing for years to get into the pickup truck market, however HQ in Japan always refused because they observed it to be an extremely small market, which was true.... in Japan. The story goes that one day they got the Japanese executives to come to a Dallas Cowboys game and had them look out at the parking lot from one of the upper suites to see virtually 100,000 pickup trucks. Their minds changed very quickly.
What doesn't make sense to me is the utter lack of an online presence. This isn't the 1990s anymore. If you don't engage your community, you have no influence whatsoever on your online image, and that's a huge business risk.
But this won't be the first time a company with a lot of promise has been run into the ground by a bunch of old fogeys in upper management. We have this company called Kodak here in Rochester....
Saying all of this, I've just had a look at the P&M showcase section. At the time of writing, on the front page all but 9 items are something to do with GW. The rest are a mix of painting studios and a few for historical and other games. That's out of 40 items on the page, so less than 25%.*
The reason that GW has been able to afford to be so extraordinarily gakky, is because they have had such a massive (perhaps humongous is a better word) market share advantage for sci-fi/fantasy games. They can afford to raise prices through the roof, launch legal actions, cut games and miniatures from their lines, close down social networking, because of this advantage. 'Other games' are gathering pace, but I think for the most part they are Nurglings nibbling away at the toes of Pappa Nurgle, sat farting and counting the wads of cash on his filthy and stinking throne.
* Acknowledging that Dakka was initially created for Warhammer/40k. I have no doubt that this would be somewhat different picture on different websites.
Pacific wrote: Saying all of this, I've just had a look at the P&M showcase section. At the time of writing, on the front page all but 9 items are something to do with GW. The rest are a mix of painting studios and a few for historical and other games. That's out of 40 items on the page, so less than 25%.*
The reason that GW has been able to afford to be so extraordinarily gakky, is because they have had such a massive (perhaps humongous is a better word) market share advantage for sci-fi/fantasy games. They can afford to raise prices through the roof, launch legal actions, cut games and miniatures from their lines, close down social networking, because of this advantage. 'Other games' are gathering pace, but I think for the most part they are Nurglings nibbling away at the toes of Pappa Nurgle, sat farting and counting the wads of cash on his filthy and stinking throne.
* Acknowledging that Dakka was initially created for Warhammer/40k. I have no doubt that this would be somewhat different picture on different websites.
Of course. The question is, how long can they continue those types of practices without repercussion? From the looks of the past few financial reports, it looks like they have crossed that line. More importantly, it looks like they have no idea that line exists, which seems to spell certain doom for them.
slowthar wrote: One example I've heard from an old GM exec is how Toyota USA was pushing for years to get into the pickup truck market, however HQ in Japan always refused because they observed it to be an extremely small market, which was true.... in Japan. The story goes that one day they got the Japanese executives to come to a Dallas Cowboys game and had them look out at the parking lot from one of the upper suites to see virtually 100,000 pickup trucks. Their minds changed very quickly.
What would be the Games Workshop equivalent of this? What could you possibly show them that would get anyone to understand what you, and others here, mean.
slowthar wrote: One example I've heard from an old GM exec is how Toyota USA was pushing for years to get into the pickup truck market, however HQ in Japan always refused because they observed it to be an extremely small market, which was true.... in Japan. The story goes that one day they got the Japanese executives to come to a Dallas Cowboys game and had them look out at the parking lot from one of the upper suites to see virtually 100,000 pickup trucks. Their minds changed very quickly.
What would be the Games Workshop equivalent of this? What could you possibly show them that would get anyone to understand what you, and others here, mean.
I think the GW equivalent would probably be tying tournaments (or leagues) to sales. Show them that organized events drive sales, and that supporting those events with a tight ruleset, prize support, an experienced staffer (i.e. a second employee at the store) and a few extra tables means a solidified, positive-minded community that becomes a fairly self-sustaining stream of sales. Show them that there's a community out there dying to have their support and interaction, and that just minimal investment in those things would produce wonderful results.
My local toyworld/hobby place stopped stocking warhammer, I used to by my lord of the rinds and 40k stuff from there, unfortunately they stopped moving stock, just too expensive
It was actually a great idea what they had going on, it was a massive toystore and then up the back they had a massive hobby section, and a substantial part dedicated to warhammer. id be at the counter looking at what to buy, they used to let me go behind there and look through the blisters which was cool.
anyway kids would run up from the front to the back and see all the cool warhammer, it was awesome however by the time their parents came around and saw the prices. there was no way little timmy or sarah would be getting anything from there, just to damned expensive. which is a shame that part used to thrive.
GW have lost there minds with pricing in oz, whilst yes it is true that we have a higher minimum wage and earn more money, the reality is alot of people dont earn a whole lot of money, not where i live anyway.
I rarely buy something new most of my stuff is second hand scrounged on ebay or something, plus ive bought one codex in like 3 years and i dont have the 7th edition rulebook either. any codex's for me will be second hand. I simply cannot justify ( and i dont think many other aussies can either) paying $83 for a book, thats like a days wage
Wolfstan wrote: What is the situation with GW stores in Oz...
You ever see a film called "The Never Ending Story"? Well in that film there was a force called the "Nothing". That's pretty much the state of GW stores in Oz. The store is there, and then it just isn't.
I prefer to think of it more like Artax drowning the swamp of sadness.
Only Atrayu the GW regional manager for Australia and Artax is his job.
I'm not the best at reading these things, but is it possible to see in general if Black Library is making money independant from the whole?
That is , example "Black Library making revenue in excess of its expenses, Forgeworld making revenue in excess of expenses, Games Workshop not making revenue in excess of expenses."
What I mean to say is, it is said that Games Workshop can no longer cut anything or they can't cut anything without it being counterproductive.
But if there's a scenario where BL is profitable but the rest isn't, even if it cuts revenue drastically you could cut expenses dramatically by liquidating the entire 40k/FB line, the shops, etc and just licensing it out to another game company (perhaps keeping FW if it's profitable and they want to keep make premium pieces/rekit bits for sale).
They aren't likely to do this, because it would entail them having the ability to recognize that they are losing market yet not having the ability to make competitive changes by themselves. But they've something similar to it before when they partnered with Milton Bradley, and they let other people make the video/computer games rather than just opening their own studio for that so it's not completely unprecedented.
But aside from that are there any problems with this if say, GW did this and just let someone else like Mantic Games take the responsibility and overhead of making 40k/FB profitable while they just collect the licensing fees? Yeah, much reduced revenue, but much reduced expense as well.
Wolfstan wrote: What is the situation with GW stores in Oz...
You ever see a film called "The Never Ending Story"? Well in that film there was a force called the "Nothing". That's pretty much the state of GW stores in Oz. The store is there, and then it just isn't.
I prefer to think of it more like Artax drowning the swamp of sadness.
Only Atrayu the GW regional manager for Australia and Artax is his job.
The GW stores in Aus behave a lot more like the UK than the US, despite Australia being similar in size to the US. This is because Australia actually has moderate population density, when you only consider the populated areas. That might sound a bit silly/biased, but consider that 64% of Australia's population lives in 5 cities.
Australia has 40 GW stores for a population of ~25M; compared to 87 stores for North America's population of ~350M.
The GW report shows that 57% of GW's sales in Australia were through GW stores - though that obviously doesn't count Australian orders from overseas, it still is nearly equal to the UK's GW store contribution, both of which are significantly larger than NA or Europe.
Australia, on a sales-per-population basis is four times Europe and more than double NA, but stil 50% short of the UK.
However, Australia is the worst out of GW's markets comparing percentage of revenue as profit.
Anecdotally - there are 4 GW stores in my city of 2M people. One is in one of the highest traffic retail areas in the CBD, though not really in a prime location. Another is also in a very busy shopping centre. The final two are a bit weird - a few hundred meters away from the shopping centres, only kind of in the retail area but obviously in cheap locations. AFAIK the CBD store is 2-man, everything else is 1-man. The staff are relatively friendly but there isn't really a gaming scene at all in them any more. It used to be that people would meet at the store for games and there were 'veterans nights' but those don't happen anymore: there is now one 4x4 showcasing WHFB and the Hobbit, and one 4x4 showcasing 40k.
Inquisitor Bob wrote: To be honest,
I can't help but think that complaints on dakka is hardly turning the company around..
GW/KIRBY don't do market research.. That way they don't had to show their investors that research.. (Which IMHO would be bad... Very bad)...
So why are Dakkanuaghts not getting together and... I don't know.. If not a market research document then a petition to all the major investing companies.. (Without nerd rage or preamble)
There are enough members that someone would now how to present a professional dossier... And it would at least have a chance to do so much more than nerd rage over first world problems..
Because the investors don't care if we're happy or not, they don't care if GW are refining their plastic from cute orphans, all they care about is a dividend, and, in the main, they have received it.
The only practical option on the table is to withhold as much cash as possible from GW at every opportunity, buying third party, second hand, buying from independents so GW only receive wholesale value, cumulatively it will all count. If enough people are dissatisfied enough to do this, then their income will fall, they will be unable to pay a dividend and then everyone in a position to affect change will have to act.
I've spent about $400 in the last year or so on Warhammer 40k through Ebay and local ads only (2k points worth of DA, 1k of SM, and another 500 on CSM) - and the only time GW gets a dime from me are when I need to buy new paint pots (which are themselves a rip-off considering the amount of paint and the shoddiness of the plastic caps).
slowthar wrote: One example I've heard from an old GM exec is how Toyota USA was pushing for years to get into the pickup truck market, however HQ in Japan always refused because they observed it to be an extremely small market, which was true.... in Japan. The story goes that one day they got the Japanese executives to come to a Dallas Cowboys game and had them look out at the parking lot from one of the upper suites to see virtually 100,000 pickup trucks. Their minds changed very quickly.
What would be the Games Workshop equivalent of this? What could you possibly show them that would get anyone to understand what you, and others here, mean.
That's easy, IMO: Realize that 13 year old kids are not the only people that play their product., hell maybe not even the majority Maybe that's true in the UK (I've long heard that over there 40k is seen as a game for rich kids unlike here in the states where it is seen as a game for college aged adult nerds, someone from the UK please verify!), but here in the states in my two years of going to the LA Battlebunker almost every weekend with my friends before it became a one-man store, I saw a grand total of THREE customers that fit GW's "13 year old kid with rich parents" demographic. Literally EVERY other customer I saw was an 18 year old+ adult who bought products with their own money.
If GW can be forced to see that their main customers here in the US are NOT 13 year old tweens that actually think names like "Murderfang" are cool, then maybe, MAYBE GW can change their attitudes regarding their customers...
sciencemile wrote: I'm not the best at reading these things, but is it possible to see in general if Black Library is making money independant from the whole?
That is , example "Black Library making revenue in excess of its expenses, Forgeworld making revenue in excess of expenses, Games Workshop not making revenue in excess of expenses."
What I mean to say is, it is said that Games Workshop can no longer cut anything or they can't cut anything without it being counterproductive.
... ... ...
Games Workshop's management accounting team certainly know the details about the Black Library division. We cannot find out from published figures, as the report lists Black Library, Forge World, digital sales and licencing revenue in "Other". This category contributed about 11% of revenues in 2013-2014.
This makes it clear that the core games are the driving power of the company. Black Library is a minor spin-off that is nice to have but could not survive by itself if the core games vanished.
It seems unlikely that GW would hand over 40K and Fantasy to be designed and manufactured under licence by other companies. Their strategy is to be vertically integrated, meaning they design, manufacture, distribute and retail everything as much as possible through their own hands. This gives them substantial fixed costs, so the success of the strategy depends on producing stuff that enough people want to buy. This is where things are going wrong for them at the moment.
Vertical integration is a strategy that GW fell into accidentally rather than picked deliberately. GW used to be a pure distributor, then added retailing, developed a retail chain, a publishing business and a model manufacturing business, then their own games. Then over the years they have cut back and got rid of everything 3rd party, and reduced the range of their own games to just two. It would not have been possible to set up a huge retail chain on the back of 40K /Fantasy, and it would not have been possible to popularise 40K/Fantasy without the existing retail chain.
It has been suggested that GW should maximise the utility of their retail chain by diversifying the product line up to include 3rd party titles such as the Fantasy Flight games licensed from GW, and more games than just 40K/Fantasy.
slowthar wrote: One example I've heard from an old GM exec is how Toyota USA was pushing for years to get into the pickup truck market, however HQ in Japan always refused because they observed it to be an extremely small market, which was true.... in Japan. The story goes that one day they got the Japanese executives to come to a Dallas Cowboys game and had them look out at the parking lot from one of the upper suites to see virtually 100,000 pickup trucks. Their minds changed very quickly.
What would be the Games Workshop equivalent of this? What could you possibly show them that would get anyone to understand what you, and others here, mean.
That's easy, IMO: Realize that 13 year old kids are not the only people that play their product., hell maybe not even the majority Maybe that's true in the UK (I've long heard that over there 40k is seen as a game for rich kids unlike here in the states where it is seen as a game for college aged adult nerds, someone from the UK please verify!), but here in the states in my two years of going to the LA Battlebunker almost every weekend with my friends before it became a one-man store, I saw a grand total of THREE customers that fit GW's "13 year old kid with rich parents" demographic. Literally EVERY other customer I saw was an 18 year old+ adult who bought products with their own money.
If GW can be forced to see that their main customers here in the US are NOT 13 year old tweens that actually think names like "Murderfang" are cool, then maybe, MAYBE GW can change their attitudes regarding their customers...
To add to that, they could, furthermore, see how popular smaller-scale games are in these stores. Last time I went (admittedly several months ago) to my FLGS of choice, small scale skirmish games like Infinity and Malifaux were quite popular, and many of theplayers had no interest in larger scale games like 40K and WHFB, or did, in fact, play 40K and/or WHFB,but wanted something a little different to dabble in. One of the FLGS in my hometown has a regularly schedule Dropzone Commander night which I've heard is rather popular.
If GW did some market research, they'd see these kinds of games are popular, and maybe they could offer a small-scaleskirmish game which might appeal to some of those people who decided to pick up Infinity or Malifaux instead, or a utterly massive, apocalyptic scale game that would've competed with Dropzone Commander.
Instead, they've decided that offering anything other than 40K or WHFB means you'll buy that other game they make instead of 40K/WHFB. Furthermore, they think that if they don't offer that Infinity or Dropzone Commander style game, you'll buy 40K or WHFB instead. They honestly believe that if I want to play Necromunda, and buy Necromunda, that obviously means I'm not buying 40K, and furthermore, if I want to play Necromunda, but they don't offer Necromunda, I'll just go "Oh well!" and buy 40K instead and won't say "Well, then, I'll go find a game from a different company that's similar to Necromunda!"
slowthar wrote: One example I've heard from an old GM exec is how Toyota USA was pushing for years to get into the pickup truck market, however HQ in Japan always refused because they observed it to be an extremely small market, which was true.... in Japan. The story goes that one day they got the Japanese executives to come to a Dallas Cowboys game and had them look out at the parking lot from one of the upper suites to see virtually 100,000 pickup trucks. Their minds changed very quickly.
What would be the Games Workshop equivalent of this? What could you possibly show them that would get anyone to understand what you, and others here, mean.
Attend a big tournament convention. Get the people who make decisions, the rules designers, to go to NOVA and see just how many people are showing up to play their game.
Better yet, go to a different convention, for example a MTG tournament. A quick google search shows that the biggest MTG tournament held was 4500 people! Show GW 4500 magic players paying to play at a competitive event and tempt them that they could be part of that market.
I think they used to get it. The old games days attracted a fair crowd, and the awarding of the Slayer Sword was pretty epic. I think they just didn't see the idea that the very existence and awesomeness of the event spurred sales in other areas, and instead tried to evaluate the game as a single-day profit-making event. What rubbish! Think of the hundreds of models which they sold only because the buyers were entering the Golden Daemon. Surely they should be factored in to the profitability of the event in a real analysis. What about all the armies for the display tables? The armies for 'Ard Boyz?
For the life of me I can't remember where I saw this but someone said that any event held in a GW store has to directly make money.
That kinda blew my mind because in this hobby that is the very definition of putting the cart before the horse.
You host events to get people excited about the hobby and to get them in your store. After that taking their money requires no effort. Getting money out of someone who's apathetic is going to be a challenge.
sciencemile wrote: I'm not the best at reading these things, but is it possible to see in general if Black Library is making money independant from the whole?
That is , example "Black Library making revenue in excess of its expenses, Forgeworld making revenue in excess of expenses, Games Workshop not making revenue in excess of expenses."
No, for a couple of reasons:
Black Library and Forgeworld sales are largely based on existing fans. Black Library is fiction that is on top of the setting, rather than the setting coming from the fiction, and that the sales show a spike on release and tail off show that it is fans who already know about it; in effect, the product has no legs beyond it.
Not only that, but these fans are the most 'hard core' - as the playerbase bleeds away, these are the last as someone who drops £100s on a titan is less inclined to be put off of costs of figures. The stuff they produce is a luxury and even more niche than GW main, but as their target audience is the most dedicated and loyal they will shrink the slowest.
These two would not be capable of continuing separately from GW main since without the supported setting, Forgeworld models are above average (but not top of class) quality pricy resin generic spacemen/soldier.
Talizvar wrote: I think I have been exposed to GW product for so long I forget some fundamental issues with GW's method of marketing.
How the heck do they get new customers / players involved in their product?
How will the average human being even be exposed to them never mind be inspired to buy?
GW gets new players by good old-fashioned word-of-mouth. Every player in my gaming group has been 'recruited' this way: an old player demoes the game for a newbie, who gets excited, buys and builds up his own army, demoes it again to some other new guy who gets excited etc. It's like a virus. Of course, prerequisite for this (quite effective) way of marketing is that there are existing players who are excited about the product. An army gathering dust abandoned in the closet does not attract anyone else to play the game.
People are too hung up with the ideas of "GW doesn't do advertising" or "GW doesn't do market research". I've never understood where GW is supposed to be advertising. Gaming magazines? That's a dying media. TV? Hugely expensive, and again, dying form of advertising. Internet? People who google "miniatures" or "games" are not looking for wargames. They're looking for some antique or collectible miniatures, or games for computers, tablets or phones. People who google "war games" most often already know that GW exists. Best form of advertising for a tabletop game, or RPG, or card game, is getting to see and experience it in first hand. That's how I got introduced to D&D, MtG and Warhammer. And this is why GW has its own stores, it is essentially form of advertising - although very expensive form of advertising, but that's what works the best.
As for market research, obviously Kirby was very prideful in his comment, equating GW to some successful artists or bands who sell millions of records doing their own thing, not caring about MTV, Top 40 charts or mainstream radio stations - in contrast to made-up, heavily marketed corporate products a'la Britney Spears or Justin Bieber. It is quite silly to equate a company, which so clearly is bent up on making money and has gradually become more distant, impersonal and corporate-like, to an 'artist', but that's how they want themselves to be seen. That they "don't do market research" means that they don't hire some marketing firm to perform polls like this:
Spoiler:
PLEASE FILL OUT THIS FORM Age:____ Sex:____
Question 1: In which kind of situations you would like to see Marneus Calgar in: a. Massacring wave after wave of aliens and heretics b. Exciting adventures in cyberspace c. Political plotting and intrigue in Galactic Senate d. Dealing with everyday problems like school, drugs, dating etc.
Question 2: Rate at scale of 1 to 5, which adjective you think describes Games Workshop best as a company (1= not at all, 5= completely accurate) a. Dynamic b. Trendy c. Modern d. Accessible
...which I really can't blame them for.
"No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.
Kilkrazy wrote: In the UK the cost of having a shop is a lot more than the cost of having a staff member in it.
I disagree, it is more than possible to have a functional retail space with all bills paid for solidly under £1000 a month (I've let one unit which cost me near £600) but there's a whole load of variables at work to make a generalised statement either way.
It depends on the location, size of shop and so on, plus there is the cost of the inventory. When I looked in Richmond, Surrey, for my wife, the going price of a lease was £3,000 to £5,000 for a medium size unit in a side street. This was about 2006. IDK how costs have gone up and down since then. GW used to have a medium size unit in Richmond, next to the railway station -- i.e. a high footfall location -- and closed it about 2007.
Exactly, that's what I meant with too many variables, rent, rates etc will vary with location, both in terms of where in a town and where in the country you're looking. You then factor in whether you're basing the comparison on a "fair" wage or simply a legal one and it gets murky.
FWIW, most GW locations in my county that I've seen would be very much at the bottom end in terms of rent and rates based on their location IMO (the local one is in a row with charity shops, a laundrette and a hairdresser, not exactly business that are known for moving into prestige high street locations) but I'm sure they have other stores in more prominent locations elsewhere (at least until the lease is up for renewal and they can move so,wwhere else to cut costs!)
GW selects generally just off high street locations and the rents are not "Cheap". Or used to. That policy changing over time leads to a mixed footprint of stores and not an absolute archetype of store for all of us in the UK to identify with.
Backfire wrote: People are too hung up with the ideas of "GW doesn't do advertising" or "GW doesn't do market research". I've never understood where GW is supposed to be advertising. Gaming magazines? That's a dying media. TV? Hugely expensive, and again, dying form of advertising. Internet? People who google "miniatures" or "games" are not looking for wargames. They're looking for some antique or collectible miniatures, or games for computers, tablets or phones. People who google "war games" most often already know that GW exists.
Best form of advertising for a tabletop game, or RPG, or card game, is getting to see and experience it in first hand. That's how I got introduced to D&D, MtG and Warhammer. And this is why GW has its own stores, it is essentially form of advertising - although very expensive form of advertising, but that's what works the best
There's plenty of options other than word of mouth and experiencing it first hand, some of which should be fairly effective.
Websites and magazines (they still sell) for the following genres: War gaming, computer gaming, modelling, crafts, magazines aimed at the target customers (teenage/young adults). Facebook. Billboards in towns with GW stores. It's probably also worth advertising in places that forgotten gamers will see (those folk that probably played Warhammer as a teenager and would get back into it if they were reminded it existed). They should also be trying to capitalize on the Space Marine Games and The Hobbit movies - flyers, freebie mini's, posters at cinemas showing the films, for instance.
GW spent years building up the following that it used to have and I you can say that it didn't need any real advertising. World of mouth worked as they were the only player about and had no rivals. It was the only place you could get a Sci Fi or Fantasy game. Most gaming clubs were Historical or RPG's and they looked down on this new upstart world. When I played the original Epic & 2nd edition 40k, the only other shop in my area, Bournemouth, was a comic shop and it's stock was very limited.
Times have changed and things have moved on. There are gaming clubs that you can go to to get a game. Indies now stock the systems of rivals and run tables for them. GW's brutal and money grabbing response will not help them.
There's plenty of options other than word of mouth and experiencing it first hand, some of which should be fairly effective.
Websites and magazines (they still sell) for the following genres: War gaming, computer gaming, modelling, crafts, magazines aimed at the target customers (teenage/young adults). Facebook. Billboards in towns with GW stores. It's probably also worth advertising in places that forgotten gamers will see (those folk that probably played Warhammer as a teenager and would get back into it if they were reminded it existed). They should also be trying to capitalize on the Space Marine Games and The Hobbit movies - flyers, freebie mini's, posters at cinemas showing the films, for instance.
I think the two most effective means of conveying their product to people are video games and selling the magazines where people can see them. It gives them much greater exposure than word of mouth does and it also generates profit FOR GW.
I don't know why they've stopped selling white dwarf in my local news agents; seems like a dumb move to make.
They do make good video games though, me discovering them and then that some of my mates played the game got me into it.
They did have advertising though; admittedly not done by GW themselves, but Hasbro or De Agnosti (?). They also had promenade in lots of places so it was very easy for non-gamers to find GW by chance.
White Dwarf is a good point; it used to be available everywhere as well, so kids could get exposed to it without having to go looking.
There's plenty of options other than word of mouth and experiencing it first hand, some of which should be fairly effective.
Websites and magazines (they still sell) for the following genres: War gaming, computer gaming, modelling, crafts, magazines aimed at the target customers (teenage/young adults). Facebook. Billboards in towns with GW stores. It's probably also worth advertising in places that forgotten gamers will see (those folk that probably played Warhammer as a teenager and would get back into it if they were reminded it existed). They should also be trying to capitalize on the Space Marine Games and The Hobbit movies - flyers, freebie mini's, posters at cinemas showing the films, for instance.
I think the two most effective means of conveying their product to people are video games and selling the magazines where people can see them. It gives them much greater exposure than word of mouth does and it also generates profit FOR GW.
I don't know why they've stopped selling white dwarf in my local news agents; seems like a dumb move to make.
They do make good video games though, me discovering them and then that some of my mates played the game got me into it.
They stopped selling White Dwarf because their dreadful and declining editorial policies caused sales to fall so low that many newsagents stopped wanting to stock it.
I agree with Backfire that word of mouth and demonstration are the two best methods for selling the games to new people. That is why it is worrying that GW have been cutting back on word of mouth and demonstration for several years. I believe this, combined with very high prices, especially of the rules and codexes, has caused their current problem.
As for GW listening to the current players, there are some signs that they are trying to respond although perhaps in a rather limited way. For instance the slipcase rulebook for 7th edition would have been exactly what a lot of people wanted if GW had sold the rules volume separately for a much lower price as an alternative to the full three volume set. GW got halfway to where people want them to be, and maybe in the fullness of time they will get all the way. This gives me hope that things will get turned around.
These two would not be capable of continuing separately from GW main since without the supported setting, Forgeworld models are above average (but not top of class) quality pricy resin generic spacemen/soldier.
This makes it clear that the core games are the driving power of the company. Black Library is a minor spin-off that is nice to have but could not survive by itself if the core games vanished.
I will definitely grant that without the Warhammer 40k game, Warhammer 40k books and Forgeworld models would not be able to sustain themselves.
But GW needn't be the producer/supporter of the setting in order for it to be supported/exist. Chapterhouse Studios is able to make money despite not producing the main game, because the main game is being produced/supported, that GW is the one supporting/producing the game is largely irrelevant (well, except for the lawsuits of course, that's all GW). Licensing out the game to be supported by somebody else would certainly not entail the Core Games vanishing. It would mean that that all the costs of owning/running the factories and distribution would be delegated to someone else, in return for royalties from the license (which while being of a lesser revenue than they have now, would be a substantially larger source of licensing revenue than has previously been acquired.)
Vertical integration is a strategy that GW fell into accidentally rather than picked deliberately. GW used to be a pure distributor, then added retailing, developed a retail chain, a publishing business and a model manufacturing business, then their own games. Then over the years they have cut back and got rid of everything 3rd party, and reduced the range of their own games to just two. It would not have been possible to set up a huge retail chain on the back of 40K /Fantasy, and it would not have been possible to popularise 40K/Fantasy without the existing retail chain.
Yet I do not think this is true of the present environment, that the existing retail chain is necessary. The way it is described how they've got into this situation it is like how the laryngeal nerve of a giraffe ended up taking a 15-foot detour from where it started to where it needs to be. But unlike the deficiencies of biological designs, we can get rid of what isn't working rather than working with what we have:
It has been suggested that GW should maximise the utility of their retail chain by diversifying the product line up to include 3rd party titles such as the Fantasy Flight games licensed from GW, and more games than just 40K/Fantasy.
Case in point. It would be far more effective to simply sell the stores. Having a GW store with non-GW product in it would be just the same as having an FLGS with GW product in it. Only in the latter case GW would not have to pay the rent or wages. Vertical Integration for GW is like a burst appendix right now, and everybody else in the market was smart enough to get theirs removed before it happened.
At this point even if they insist on having a physical presence, with their current attitude to running their existing stores with 1-man shops and hard selling they'd be better off renting mall kiosks like the cell-phone companies do.
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Tho aside from this I imagine that the revenue is much lower from BL/FW than GW, and definitely accept this as a reason why they don't make separate sections.
A lot of the background actually has generated by freelance writers, e.g. Dan Abnett, elaborating on the original foundations from the 1980s, as far as the BL books go. The codex stuff is all written in house AFAIK.
The vertical integration strategy appears to me to be an accidental historical development rather than a cunning plan. To the extent that it is designed to serve higher management's purposes, I feel it is based on their obvious paranoia and control freakery rather than any developed business planning.
Backfire wrote: People are too hung up with the ideas of "GW doesn't do advertising" or "GW doesn't do market research". I've never understood where GW is supposed to be advertising. Gaming magazines? That's a dying media. TV? Hugely expensive, and again, dying form of advertising. Internet? People who google "miniatures" or "games" are not looking for wargames. They're looking for some antique or collectible miniatures, or games for computers, tablets or phones. People who google "war games" most often already know that GW exists.
Best form of advertising for a tabletop game, or RPG, or card game, is getting to see and experience it in first hand. That's how I got introduced to D&D, MtG and Warhammer. And this is why GW has its own stores, it is essentially form of advertising - although very expensive form of advertising, but that's what works the best
There's plenty of options other than word of mouth and experiencing it first hand, some of which should be fairly effective.
Websites and magazines (they still sell) for the following genres: War gaming, computer gaming, modelling, crafts, magazines aimed at the target customers (teenage/young adults). Facebook. Billboards in towns with GW stores. It's probably also worth advertising in places that forgotten gamers will see (those folk that probably played Warhammer as a teenager and would get back into it if they were reminded it existed). They should also be trying to capitalize on the Space Marine Games and The Hobbit movies - flyers, freebie mini's, posters at cinemas showing the films, for instance.
Remember when GW actively engaged the FLGS including their system of "Outriders" who traveled to various stores to promote events, conduct demo games, run tournaments and painting sessions, all designed to promote 40K and WHFB?
That's advertising. It's honestly probably the best advertising that GW ever did in the USA, and is probably the main reason that GW got as successful as it was in the late 1990's and early 2000's.
Talizvar wrote: I think I have been exposed to GW product for so long I forget some fundamental issues with GW's method of marketing.
How the heck do they get new customers / players involved in their product?
How will the average human being even be exposed to them never mind be inspired to buy?
GW gets new players by good old-fashioned word-of-mouth. Every player in my gaming group has been 'recruited' this way: an old player demoes the game for a newbie, who gets excited, buys and builds up his own army, demoes it again to some other new guy who gets excited etc. It's like a virus. Of course, prerequisite for this (quite effective) way of marketing is that there are existing players who are excited about the product. An army gathering dust abandoned in the closet does not attract anyone else to play the game.
People are too hung up with the ideas of "GW doesn't do advertising" or "GW doesn't do market research". I've never understood where GW is supposed to be advertising. Gaming magazines? That's a dying media. TV? Hugely expensive, and again, dying form of advertising. Internet? People who google "miniatures" or "games" are not looking for wargames. They're looking for some antique or collectible miniatures, or games for computers, tablets or phones. People who google "war games" most often already know that GW exists.
The LOTR bubble wants a word with you. Why was LOTR wildly popular? Because GW advertised the product line.
And when LEGO was going bankrupt a major part of how the company got turned around was doing market research for the first time since forever. I don't do 'market' research, per se, but I am a professional small group researcher. With the right methodology, putting a dozen people in a room and asking them what they think is incredibly valuable, especially when compared to, you know, assuming things.
Problem is GW then used Indies as test sites. If they were doing the business then GW would think about opening their own store. They should of just stuck to supporting Indies and give them good incentives to keep promoting their stuff. GW could of gone as far as providing inhouse staff to handle the GW sales.
A lot of the background actually has generated by freelance writers, e.g. Dan Abnett, elaborating on the original foundations from the 1980s, as far as the BL books go. The codex stuff is all written in house AFAIK.
The vertical integration strategy appears to me to be an accidental historical development rather than a cunning plan. To the extent that it is designed to serve higher management's purposes, I feel it is based on their obvious paranoia and control freakery rather than any developed business planning.
It's worth mentioning that marketing is not the same as advertising. Marketing includes just about anything to manipulate your company or product image, including engaging in social media and running tournaments.
I agree that advertising is probably a waste of money and would even come off as pretty silly. However, doing a bit of market research and other forms of marketing could provide great avenues of growth for GW that they currently have no idea exist.
Backfire wrote: "No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.
I really think they are. What "changes in recent years" can you verify are because of customer feedback? I'm aware of literally zero.
Backfire wrote: "No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.
I really think they are. What "changes in recent years" can you verify are because of customer feedback? I'm aware of literally zero.
Yeah, let's draw a line here between "market research" and "unsolicited feedback."
If I had an issue with someone personally, but hadn't spoken to them one on one, they might be aware I was angry at them via other people, friends of friends etc..
If I stood outside their house every day and shouted at them through the closed doors and windows, they might garner an even clearer picture of why I was unhappy with them, they may even glean enough to make some changes in an effort to placate me, but due to the limited and one way nature of the communication, may misunderstand what my issue is. They may even misunderstand to the point where they make matters worse.
It would only be once the person and I sat down face-to-face and had a proper interaction would there be any real hope of any positive resolution.
Kilkrazy wrote: I agree with Backfire that word of mouth and demonstration are the two best methods for selling the games to new people. That is why it is worrying that GW have been cutting back on word of mouth and demonstration for several years. I believe this, combined with very high prices, especially of the rules and codexes, has caused their current problem.
As for GW listening to the current players, there are some signs that they are trying to respond although perhaps in a rather limited way. For instance the slipcase rulebook for 7th edition would have been exactly what a lot of people wanted if GW had sold the rules volume separately for a much lower price as an alternative to the full three volume set. GW got halfway to where people want them to be, and maybe in the fullness of time they will get all the way. This gives me hope that things will get turned around.
Thirded.
I'm all for seeing companies spend large sums of cash on advertising, since that's my industry. But I don't think a traditional advertising makes much sense for GW. Its products are for such a niche market that any advertising spend on their part will inevitably be very inefficient. I do think there are many possibilities for them with social media, etc.
Again, IMO their trouble started (in the U.S. at least) when they lost their ground game and their dominance at the local FLGS. And with the GW stores going to 1 employee, they can't possibly be running as many demos as they used to.
I miss the big GTs, but IMO what GW misses (even if they don't know it) is their RTT system. By supporting those little store events, they got people playing the game in stores, building enthusiasm for the products, and (importantly) showing it off to potential new customers. This may again be a U.S.-centric viewpoint, but I think it's relevant since the U.S. is a hugely important market in which they've been struggling).
Backfire wrote: "No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.
I really think they are. What "changes in recent years" can you verify are because of customer feedback? I'm aware of literally zero.
Yeah, let's draw a line here between "market research" and "unsolicited feedback."
If I had an issue with someone personally, but hadn't spoken to them one on one, they might be aware I was angry at them via other people, friends of friends etc..
If I stood outside their house every day and shouted at them through the closed doors and windows, they might garner an even clearer picture of why I was unhappy with them, they may even glean enough to make some changes in an effort to placate me, but due to the limited and one way nature of the communication, may misunderstand what my issue is. They may even misunderstand to the point where they make matters worse.
It would only be once the person and I sat down face-to-face and had a proper interaction would there be any real hope of any positive resolution.
This. They may think they have their fingers on the pulse of gamers everywhere but their attitude and actions show that to be incorrect.
People's favorite hobby is going in and buying GW products? No mention of the assembly/painting/playing with - just purchasing.
The decreasing sales numbers show that GW has no idea what is actually going on right now.
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gorgon wrote: I'm all for seeing companies spend large sums of cash on advertising, since that's my industry. But I don't think a traditional advertising makes much sense for GW. Its products are for such a niche market that any advertising spend on their part will inevitably be very inefficient. I do think there are many possibilities for them with social media, etc.
Not just "free" stuff like social media, but advertising for licensees. Licensing out apps, pc games, etc. and then you do advertising for them. Include references to what the thing is based on and you'll pull people in.
No one's saying run a commercial during the superbowl for 40k and/or fantasy... but to completely ignore any form of advertising is lunacy.
Talizvar wrote: I think I have been exposed to GW product for so long I forget some fundamental issues with GW's method of marketing.
How the heck do they get new customers / players involved in their product?
How will the average human being even be exposed to them never mind be inspired to buy?
GW gets new players by good old-fashioned word-of-mouth. Every player in my gaming group has been 'recruited' this way: an old player demoes the game for a newbie, who gets excited, buys and builds up his own army, demoes it again to some other new guy who gets excited etc. It's like a virus. Of course, prerequisite for this (quite effective) way of marketing is that there are existing players who are excited about the product. An army gathering dust abandoned in the closet does not attract anyone else to play the game.
People are too hung up with the ideas of "GW doesn't do advertising" or "GW doesn't do market research". I've never understood where GW is supposed to be advertising. Gaming magazines? That's a dying media. TV? Hugely expensive, and again, dying form of advertising. Internet? People who google "miniatures" or "games" are not looking for wargames. They're looking for some antique or collectible miniatures, or games for computers, tablets or phones. People who google "war games" most often already know that GW exists.
Best form of advertising for a tabletop game, or RPG, or card game, is getting to see and experience it in first hand. That's how I got introduced to D&D, MtG and Warhammer. And this is why GW has its own stores, it is essentially form of advertising - although very expensive form of advertising, but that's what works the best.
But there's another problem. With word of mouth you need that word to be positive. Now you have people like me, a 20+ year veteran, actively working against the company via word of mouth. So now, their only means of advertising is turning negative.
GW needs to leverage the FLGS. They need something like the old Outriders program (like PP has with its Press Gangers). Use the FLGS as your recruiting grounds. Bring back local tournament support. Support the big tournaments / Cons. Send the FLGS demo kits. Give them the marketing media like posters, cut outs (like MTG). Cool GW swag like plastic bags for when folks buy their other plastic crack at your store.
All of the above is second to fixing the inherent problem with rules, trade terms, value for money etc.
A second thought on the Con thing. GenCon is going on right now. Besides the Forgeworld store why doesnt GW have a huge area like PP does? Thats just friggen silly IMHO.
Whether this is because GW don't want their users exposed to alternatives, or because they think they stand separate to and above the rest of the tabletop game industry, I don't know. A bit of both, perhaps.
It is ironic as Games Day started off as a broad-based tabletop games show that included a lot of different stuff.
But there's another problem. With word of mouth you need that word to be positive. Now you have people like me, a 20+ year veteran, actively working against the company via word of mouth. So now, their only means of advertising is turning negative.
darefsky wrote: GW needs to leverage the FLGS. They need something like the old Outriders program (like PP has with its Press Gangers). Use the FLGS as your recruiting grounds. Bring back local tournament support. Support the big tournaments / Cons. Send the FLGS demo kits. Give them the marketing media like posters, cut outs (like MTG). Cool GW swag like plastic bags for when folks buy their other plastic crack at your store.
All of the above is second to fixing the inherent problem with rules, trade terms, value for money etc.
A second thought on the Con thing. GenCon is going on right now. Besides the Forgeworld store why doesnt GW have a huge area like PP does? Thats just friggen silly IMHO.
If GW adopted this approach, they'd be booming. The strength of their IP is the only thing keeping them afloat. Any other TT game wouldve disappeared under management like GW's. They are sitting on a gold mine, but using it as a toilet.
darefsky wrote: GW needs to leverage the FLGS. They need something like the old Outriders program (like PP has with its Press Gangers). Use the FLGS as your recruiting grounds. Bring back local tournament support. Support the big tournaments / Cons. Send the FLGS demo kits. Give them the marketing media like posters, cut outs (like MTG). Cool GW swag like plastic bags for when folks buy their other plastic crack at your store.
All of the above is second to fixing the inherent problem with rules, trade terms, value for money etc.
A second thought on the Con thing. GenCon is going on right now. Besides the Forgeworld store why doesnt GW have a huge area like PP does? Thats just friggen silly IMHO.
It is pretty ludicrous that GW doesn't have a meaningful presence at the largest (and arguably oldest) gaming convention in North America.
darefsky wrote: GW needs to leverage the FLGS. They need something like the old Outriders program (like PP has with its Press Gangers). Use the FLGS as your recruiting grounds. Bring back local tournament support. Support the big tournaments / Cons. Send the FLGS demo kits. Give them the marketing media like posters, cut outs (like MTG). Cool GW swag like plastic bags for when folks buy their other plastic crack at your store.
All of the above is second to fixing the inherent problem with rules, trade terms, value for money etc.
A second thought on the Con thing. GenCon is going on right now. Besides the Forgeworld store why doesnt GW have a huge area like PP does? Thats just friggen silly IMHO.
It is pretty ludicrous that GW doesn't have a meaningful presence at the largest (and arguably oldest) gaming convention in North America.
Daba wrote:Or the UK, or Germany.
Think about this for comparison. PP has a LIFE SIZE Man-o-War and they usually have a life size light Warjack. They have a huge open gaming hall, are running tournaments just about non-stop, plus fun "specialty" tournaments. a demo area for their games (from WarMachine to all of the board games they make) and a store that has lines reported over an hour long wait, info sessions with the game designers etc......Oh and future releases are on display....And they are all over the twitter and facebook (and apparently Pinterest, but I refuse on princinple to check that out). posting pics with customers, cosplayers and other awesome stuff.
As large as GW is, they should be dwarfing the other miniatures games folks. They should be second only to Wizards of the coast (or darn close to it).
Backfire wrote: an old player demoes the game for a newbie, who gets excited, buys and builds up his own army
You forgot to mention the time between "get's excited" and "buys" wherein the consumer does some cost analysis and sees if the startup costs are manageable.
Backfire wrote: People are too hung up with the ideas of "GW doesn't do advertising" or "GW doesn't do market research".
"No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.
I disagree. That comment is one of the most outlandish things a CEO could say to his investors, I would imagine (outside of his preamble opening). If he were doing market research of any kind, I would hazard a guess that he wouldn't have boasted that they didn't.
"Hey, our sales are tanking."
"What does the market want to buy?"
"They buy what we tell them to buy."
"Right."
I mean, I still get a laugh out of "We don't ask the market what it wants."
Backfire wrote: People are too hung up with the ideas of "GW doesn't do advertising" or "GW doesn't do market research".
"No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.
I disagree. That comment is one of the most outlandish things a CEO could say to his investors, I would imagine (outside of his preamble opening). If he were doing market research of any kind, I would hazard a guess that he wouldn't have boasted that they didn't.
"Hey, our sales are tanking."
"What does the market want to buy?"
"They buy what we tell them to buy."
"Right."
I mean, I still get a laugh out of "We don't ask the market what it wants."
I agree with this sentiment to a good degree, but here is my thought on it. I know there are the redshirts who truly want to help promote the hobby, but seems to be that they are getting shafted by corporate. Perhaps this suggests a disconnect from corporate and those working in retail and that?
We know that GW are having serious trouble staffing their shops, so bad that it was cited as an important reason for their sales decline. This is despite GW hiring for attitude rather than skills and experience.
This indicates some serious divide between what corporate want, or think is possible, and what the people who are supposed to work on the front line actually can or are prepared to do.
darefsky wrote: GW needs to leverage the FLGS. They need something like the old Outriders program (like PP has with its Press Gangers). Use the FLGS as your recruiting grounds. Bring back local tournament support. Support the big tournaments / Cons. Send the FLGS demo kits. Give them the marketing media like posters, cut outs (like MTG). Cool GW swag like plastic bags for when folks buy their other plastic crack at your store.
All of the above is second to fixing the inherent problem with rules, trade terms, value for money etc.
A second thought on the Con thing. GenCon is going on right now. Besides the Forgeworld store why doesnt GW have a huge area like PP does? Thats just friggen silly IMHO.
It is pretty ludicrous that GW doesn't have a meaningful presence at the largest (and arguably oldest) gaming convention in North America.
Daba wrote:Or the UK, or Germany.
Think about this for comparison. PP has a LIFE SIZE Man-o-War and they usually have a life size light Warjack. They have a huge open gaming hall, are running tournaments just about non-stop, plus fun "specialty" tournaments. a demo area for their games (from WarMachine to all of the board games they make) and a store that has lines reported over an hour long wait, info sessions with the game designers etc......Oh and future releases are on display....And they are all over the twitter and facebook (and apparently Pinterest, but I refuse on princinple to check that out). posting pics with customers, cosplayers and other awesome stuff.
As large as GW is, they should be dwarfing the other miniatures games folks. They should be second only to Wizards of the coast (or darn close to it).
Turns out they actually did have a lifesize marine:
Backfire wrote: "No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.
As others have said, unsolicited feedback is worth less than structured market research. Most people only write to a company to complain about something, it's not a sample group from which you can understand anything beyond individual concerns.
The funny thing about saying that GW does get feedback is that they have done their best to cut down on channels through which to give feedback. Their forums were already highly regulated against discussing any topic on their business practices and prices. You can bet if they were still around now they would have prevented people discussing their issues with Finecast. The White Dwarf section was the only one where staff appeared to ask for suggestions saying that changes would take at least three months due to the gap between writing and publishing. Seems fair enough and some people seem optimistic. Well thought out and detailed feedback was given and then clearly ignored, not even given a reply of any sort like 'thanks for your contribution', no changes occurred in White Dwarf, total silence. People got upset because they'd been clearly ignored, quite rudely given the request for suggestions, and didn't even get the decency of a reply saying why certain suggested changes couldn't be made. So GW closed the White Dwarf sections because it was over run with complaints. Then a few months or a year later, GW closed the whole forum down. The whole thing seemed too much effort for them.
Then in more recent years they started using twitter and facebook. But then they decided they owned Space Marines and tried to take down the Spots the Space Marine book. Customer resentment seemed to reach a point where the GW decided that they weren't going to publicly face up to the way they were bulldozing their way around the hobby and again, they just shut it all down. No public response was ever given to the Spots the Space Marine thing even when it made the BBC News and other mainstream papers, it goes unacknowledged just like the issues people had with Finecast. Which they just tried to ride through by claiming they make the best miniatures in the world.
Backfire wrote: "No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.
I really think they are. What "changes in recent years" can you verify are because of customer feedback? I'm aware of literally zero.
I've mentioned them before, but here goes again:
-quicker update schedule for Codices
-abandoning annual price hikes
-improved and more comprehensive FAQs
And when LEGO was going bankrupt a major part of how the company got turned around was doing market research for the first time since forever. I don't do 'market' research, per se, but I am a professional small group researcher. With the right methodology, putting a dozen people in a room and asking them what they think is incredibly valuable, especially when compared to, you know, assuming things.
What turned Lego around was licenses. In the past they didn't do it, they had their own, quite generic but innovative ranges, Lego Space, Lego City, Lego Castle etc. What changed was that instead of selling 'building blocks' they began to sell 'Action Figures' for known franchises (Star Wars most notably). It was like playing with action figures, only action figure happened to be Lego.
Now, had they asked me, I would have told them that the old ranges were much superior to boring, uninnovative and overpriced licensed ranges. I much rather have an '80s Lego Star Cruiser, than 2000's Darth Maul Fighter ® and let my imagination fill the blanks. It's actually quite depressing that this strategy is successful, but it is, their profits are astonishing.
Oh, and also they cut their workforce big time, and moved their manufacturing from Denmark to Third World.
-quicker update schedule for Codices
-abandoning annual price hikes
Neither are those to do with responding to customers requests. Prices go up frequently, they just do it through new releases and re-releases so that it isn't as obvious. The quicker release schedule is purely a cash grab, as are all the mini codexes and supplements which fragment what should be a single release. The quality of rules is all over the place. These are not examples of GW listening to and responding to customers positively.
Backfire wrote: "No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.
I really think they are. What "changes in recent years" can you verify are because of customer feedback? I'm aware of literally zero.
I've mentioned them before, but here goes again:
-quicker update schedule for Codices
-abandoning annual price hikes
-improved and more comprehensive FAQs
Out of curiosity, what evidence (any at all) do you have that these changes were made as a result of listening to things that their customers stated they wanted.
Arguably, the increased release schedule could be more to do with needing to make more money since sales turnover has been dropping for several years. The annual price hike has been replaced with price increases associated with each individual release. And, WHFB would like a word with you about this supposed "improved and more comprehensive FAQs."
The LOTR bubble wants a word with you. Why was LOTR wildly popular? Because GW advertised the product line.
And where is the LOTR now?
The fact that GW fethed up its handling of the LOTR license does not mean that advertising the products did not vastly improve sales.
You could also say, "And where is GW's revenue now?" GW stopped advertising the LOTR product line, stopped supporting it as well, started to betray the source material, and saw the bubble burst. The fact that the movies stopped being released was only one part of the equation. And if you look at Box Office Mojo, The Hobbit movies have thus far been about on par with the LOTR trilogy. And yet GW's Hobbit products have withered on the vine. Why? Is it just because the Desolation of Smaug only grossed 258 million as opposed to 313 million? Or perhaps is it also because unlike with the LOTR bubble GW did no advertising, did not have the products available outside of its normal sales channels, and did not offer the products at a reasonable price?
You can't just say, "the LOTR bubble burst" and insinuate that GW had no control over what created that bubble in the first place. Many of the things that have made GW's Hobbit products such a massive failure are the same things that have arguably been causing GW's sales to decline at an ever increasing pace. In this way, the failure of The Hobbit is a microcosm of what has been causing GW to slide into its current death spiral.
When I met my wife, who is in no way a wargamer, she had several boxes of LOTR miniatures. Crazy, right! What in the Hell possessed her to buy those LOTR related products as opposed to any number of the bewildering array of LOTR memorabilia around. Instead of a replica of Nenya she had GW's Battle at Weathertop box set. She had purchased these because GW had put them where she could easily access them and encouraged her to buy them via marketing campaigns to which she was exposed.
Getting those boxes of products into her hands was far, far, far more than the first step towards earning a new customer/player. But GW dropped the ball. They got that product into her hands, but never turned her into a regular customer. And she didn't blink at GW's Hobbit products. In fact, most tellingly, she had no idea they existed until I told her about them.
Arguably, the increased release schedule could be more to do with needing to make more money since sales turnover has been dropping for several years. The annual price hike has been replaced with price increases associated with each individual release. And, WHFB would like a word with you about this supposed "improved and more comprehensive FAQs."
Arguably? While there's always a set of intertwining concerns behind every business decision, it's hard to imagine this is not the primary motivating factor.
Lawyers, accountants, sales guys, and a former tax man. These are not people who think about how to play games, these are people who think about how to structure revenue streams to maximize profit.
From what I understand, supplements are the brain child of Elaine O’Donnell. Tell me what makes you think this person does anything but scour the company's offerings to dissect products to their core and extract new revenue from what's left over.
Arguably, the increased release schedule could be more to do with needing to make more money since sales turnover has been dropping for several years. The annual price hike has been replaced with price increases associated with each individual release. And, WHFB would like a word with you about this supposed "improved and more comprehensive FAQs."
Arguably? While there's always a set of intertwining concerns behind every business decision, it's hard to imagine this is not the primary motivating factor.
Lawyers, accountants, sales guys, and a former tax man. These are not people who think about how to play games, these are people who think about how to structure revenue streams to maximize profit.
From what I understand, supplements are the brain child of Elaine O’Donnell. Tell me what makes you think this person does anything but scour the company's offerings to dissect products to their core and extract new revenue from what's left over.
I used "arguably" because I didn't want to make an assertion I couldn't prove, no matter how likely that assertion might be to be true. I didn't want to make the same mistake Backfire made by asserting the increased release schedule was the result of listening to their customer base, despite the fact that he knows that there is absolutely no way he can prove that assertion at any level.
Regarding the Hobbit vs. LotR - other licensed Middle Earth related products are doing well enough. Both games and toys. The movies are popular (though not quite as impressive) as the first go around - and various toys and games are moving pretty well (I haven't pressed for figures, but most I have asked say "about the same").
Regarding GW in general - with GenCon here...a lot of other companies are doing their presentations. FFG is still saying they are getting 25% or more annual growth.
That's easy, IMO: Realize that 13 year old kids are not the only people that play their product., hell maybe not even the majority Maybe that's true in the UK (I've long heard that over there 40k is seen as a game for rich kids unlike here in the states where it is seen as a game for college aged adult nerds, someone from the UK please verify!), but here in the states in my two years of going to the LA Battlebunker almost every weekend with my friends before it became a one-man store, I saw a grand total of THREE customers that fit GW's "13 year old kid with rich parents" demographic. Literally EVERY other customer I saw was an 18 year old+ adult who bought products with their own money.
If GW can be forced to see that their main customers here in the US are NOT 13 year old tweens that actually think names like "Murderfang" are cool, then maybe, MAYBE GW can change their attitudes regarding their customers...
In the UK from my experience, it is rare to see anyone under about 15 being interested in wargaming, and the ones that are often have been introduced to it by an older sibling or a parent.
For the most part, those I have spoken to detest the dumbing down of the IP, and would rather it was more designed for a higher age-range.
It is often a point of annoyance that GW's site, names and minis are designed for over-hypes 12 year olds, the background is designed for not much older than that, and the universe is intended for young adults. It never makes it's mind up, and ends up being stupid as hell. Much like the rules.
That's easy, IMO: Realize that 13 year old kids are not the only people that play their product., hell maybe not even the majority Maybe that's true in the UK (I've long heard that over there 40k is seen as a game for rich kids unlike here in the states where it is seen as a game for college aged adult nerds, someone from the UK please verify!), but here in the states in my two years of going to the LA Battlebunker almost every weekend with my friends before it became a one-man store, I saw a grand total of THREE customers that fit GW's "13 year old kid with rich parents" demographic. Literally EVERY other customer I saw was an 18 year old+ adult who bought products with their own money.
If GW can be forced to see that their main customers here in the US are NOT 13 year old tweens that actually think names like "Murderfang" are cool, then maybe, MAYBE GW can change their attitudes regarding their customers...
In the UK from my experience, it is rare to see anyone under about 15 being interested in wargaming, and the ones that are often have been introduced to it by an older sibling or a parent.
For the most part, those I have spoken to detest the dumbing down of the IP, and would rather it was more designed for a higher age-range.
It is often a point of annoyance that GW's site, names and minis are designed for over-hypes 12 year olds, the background is designed for not much older than that, and the universe is intended for young adults. It never makes it's mind up, and ends up being stupid as hell. Much like the rules.
Agreed. What finally took the veil off my eyes about GW was when they started cheapening the fluff. For me, no matter how crappy the rules (and I knew they were) I still loved the IP enough to play through the games. But when they started throwing the fluff out the windows and making everything dumbed down, I had enough. They had cheapened the game I loved. That SW flying chariot is the Jar Jar Binks of the 40k world.
That's easy, IMO: Realize that 13 year old kids are not the only people that play their product., hell maybe not even the majority Maybe that's true in the UK (I've long heard that over there 40k is seen as a game for rich kids unlike here in the states where it is seen as a game for college aged adult nerds, someone from the UK please verify!), but here in the states in my two years of going to the LA Battlebunker almost every weekend with my friends before it became a one-man store, I saw a grand total of THREE customers that fit GW's "13 year old kid with rich parents" demographic. Literally EVERY other customer I saw was an 18 year old+ adult who bought products with their own money.
If GW can be forced to see that their main customers here in the US are NOT 13 year old tweens that actually think names like "Murderfang" are cool, then maybe, MAYBE GW can change their attitudes regarding their customers...
In the UK from my experience, it is rare to see anyone under about 15 being interested in wargaming, and the ones that are often have been introduced to it by an older sibling or a parent.
For the most part, those I have spoken to detest the dumbing down of the IP, and would rather it was more designed for a higher age-range.
It is often a point of annoyance that GW's site, names and minis are designed for over-hypes 12 year olds, the background is designed for not much older than that, and the universe is intended for young adults. It never makes it's mind up, and ends up being stupid as hell. Much like the rules.
Agreed. What finally took the veil off my eyes about GW was when they started cheapening the fluff. For me, no matter how crappy the rules (and I knew they were) I still loved the IP enough to play through the games. But when they started throwing the fluff out the windows and making everything dumbed down, I had enough. They had cheapened the game I loved. That SW flying chariot is the Jar Jar Binks of the 40k world.
You mean that the totes awesomesauce that is Murderfang, from Omnicide, who murders things with Murderclaws while suffering from Murderlust, doesn't make you want to play?
That's easy, IMO: Realize that 13 year old kids are not the only people that play their product., hell maybe not even the majority Maybe that's true in the UK (I've long heard that over there 40k is seen as a game for rich kids unlike here in the states where it is seen as a game for college aged adult nerds, someone from the UK please verify!), but here in the states in my two years of going to the LA Battlebunker almost every weekend with my friends before it became a one-man store, I saw a grand total of THREE customers that fit GW's "13 year old kid with rich parents" demographic. Literally EVERY other customer I saw was an 18 year old+ adult who bought products with their own money.
If GW can be forced to see that their main customers here in the US are NOT 13 year old tweens that actually think names like "Murderfang" are cool, then maybe, MAYBE GW can change their attitudes regarding their customers...
In the UK from my experience, it is rare to see anyone under about 15 being interested in wargaming, and the ones that are often have been introduced to it by an older sibling or a parent.
For the most part, those I have spoken to detest the dumbing down of the IP, and would rather it was more designed for a higher age-range.
It is often a point of annoyance that GW's site, names and minis are designed for over-hypes 12 year olds, the background is designed for not much older than that, and the universe is intended for young adults. It never makes it's mind up, and ends up being stupid as hell. Much like the rules.
Agreed. What finally took the veil off my eyes about GW was when they started cheapening the fluff. For me, no matter how crappy the rules (and I knew they were) I still loved the IP enough to play through the games. But when they started throwing the fluff out the windows and making everything dumbed down, I had enough. They had cheapened the game I loved. That SW flying chariot is the Jar Jar Binks of the 40k world.
You mean that the totes awesomesauce that is Murderfang, from Omnicide, who murders things with Murderclaws while suffering from Murderlust, doesn't make you want to play?
Dunno man, 8 year old me would find the fluff pretty cool.
Until I look at the model. Why does it have an ugly head stuck outside a robot body?! It's not only impractical (I'm fine with the rule of cool), but that's definitely waaaay uncool.
Sean_OBrien wrote: Regarding the Hobbit vs. LotR - other licensed Middle Earth related products are doing well enough. Both games and toys. The movies are popular (though not quite as impressive) as the first go around - and various toys and games are moving pretty well (I haven't pressed for figures, but most I have asked say "about the same").
Regarding GW in general - with GenCon here...a lot of other companies are doing their presentations. FFG is still saying they are getting 25% or more annual growth.
Whatever GW are doing - they are doing it wrong.
Regarding GenCon. Here is another piece of anecdotal evidence of GW losing ground to competition:
Corvus Belli came with 5,000 copies of Infinity Operation: Icestorm. They sold out all 5,000 in the first two days. The SE miniature they brought, sold out in the very first hour of GenCon.
I'd be willing to bet their are other companies (FFG, Wyrd, et. al.) that are doing just as well.
GW is losing ground and the market very quickly at this point.
Sean_OBrien wrote: Regarding the Hobbit vs. LotR - other licensed Middle Earth related products are doing well enough. Both games and toys. The movies are popular (though not quite as impressive) as the first go around - and various toys and games are moving pretty well (I haven't pressed for figures, but most I have asked say "about the same").
Regarding GW in general - with GenCon here...a lot of other companies are doing their presentations. FFG is still saying they are getting 25% or more annual growth.
Whatever GW are doing - they are doing it wrong.
Regarding GenCon. Here is another piece of anecdotal evidence of GW losing ground to competition:
Corvus Belli came with 5,000 copies of Infinity Operation: Icestorm. They sold out all 5,000 in the first two days. The SE miniature they brought, sold out in the very first hour of GenCon.
I'd be willing to bet their are other companies (FFG, Wyrd, et. al.) that are doing just as well.
GW us losing ground, and the market, very quickly at this point.
They didn't have 5000 copies with them. 5000 copies is the entire first print run of Icestorm, which includes the copies being sold through stores. If they sold all 5000 at Gencon, they'd have lots and lots of very angry and disappointed fans no longer getting the copy they'd paid money for through other stores.
They did, however, likely have several hundred copies at Gencon, which sold out.
I know Wyrd got 3 weeks of my hobby money from Gencon (that Whiskey Golem is wonderful).
Okay, so I was off about the number of copies, but the point of selling out early still remains.
Another interesting point about GenCon. Back in the 80s/90s it was primarily an RPG experience with some other gaming thrown in (primarily MTG once it became popular). Now it it huge with tabletop and board games, as well as RPG, and GW has NO presence there whatsoever.
While I haven't kept up with all of it, what is there is an interesting peek at the near future. Infinity with Icestorm and in process of 3rd edition to make the game more mainstream. FFG with The Witcher, Star Wars Armada and now Imperial Assault (hmmm, 28mm Star Wars miniatures starting to dip their toes in that market).
I haven't keep up with Mantic and Wyrd other than Mantic tweeting a pic that by Day 3 their shelves are all almost empty.
I just don't see how GW can continue to sit back and pretend their is no competition. Between Salute in the UK and GenCon, two of the biggest gaming conventions, they have had NO exposure to thousands of gamers.
Wayshuba wrote: Okay, so I was off about the number of copies, but the point of selling out early still remains.
Another interesting point about GenCon. Back in the 80s/90s it was primarily an RPG experience with some other gaming thrown in (primarily MTG once it became popular). Now it it huge with tabletop and board games, as well as RPG, and GW has NO presence there whatsoever.
While I haven't kept up with all of it, what is there is an interesting peek at the near future. Infinity with Icestorm and in process of 3rd edition to make the game more mainstream. FFG with The Witcher, Star Wars Armada and now Imperial Assault (hmmm, 28mm Star Wars miniatures starting to dip their toes in that market).
I haven't keep up with Mantic and Wyrd other than Mantic tweeting a pic that by Day 3 their shelves are all almost empty.
I just don't see how GW can continue to sit back and pretend their is no competition. Between Salute in the UK and GenCon, two of the biggest gaming conventions, they have had NO exposure to thousands of gamers.
In all fairness Forgeworld has a sales booth at GenCon (or used to anyway). But nothing like what PP, FFG have out there.
Until I look at the model. Why does it have an ugly head stuck outside a robot body?! It's not only impractical (I'm fine with the rule of cool), but that's definitely waaaay uncool.
8 year old me would have found it cool. But, the 10/11 year old me that first got into GW did so precisely because it didn't appear childish. Actually, WD 126 (the famous Eldar issue) was the first copy I picked up from a local newsagent. The miniatures, artwork and stories inside had a cool 'adult' edge to it, which separated it from the other toys that you are moving away from at that age.
I think an element of this is getting older (moving away from it as it is moving away from me) but I think a good number of the new releases are far more toy-like, and the company in general seems far more sanitised and much less edgy - I guess part of that is the change to a bigger and more professional company (no room for boobs or racial skin tones!) but a side consequence of that is that I think it actually then appeals less to the target age group that GW are going for.
Until I look at the model. Why does it have an ugly head stuck outside a robot body?! It's not only impractical (I'm fine with the rule of cool), but that's definitely waaaay uncool.
Does anyone know if the head is interchangeable? I'm with you - I think it looks ridiculous, but leaving it off or swapping it with another would be passable.
Kilkrazy wrote: Even with 49,000 visitors at GenCon I think they would have been very lucky to sell 5,000 units.
500 copies sold I can easily imagine. Presumably part of the convention is visiting trade stands like any big show.
Oddly enough, Forgeworld aside, GW not having a presence at Gencon resulted in 0 copies of their expansion being sold.
Because selling nothing is better than recognizing that you have competition.
I actually hope that GW carry on as they have been for a few more years. It will just give these other, smaller companies more of a chance to reach a critical mass in terms of players, grow larger, and ultimately result in much of a pluralistic industry (at least as far as sci-fi/fantasy is concerned) in the years to come.
If one is to take a wider and more utilitarian view of this kind of thing..
Backfire wrote: -quicker update schedule for Codices
-abandoning annual price hikes
-improved and more comprehensive FAQs
Do you want to know why so many at Dakka are quick to throw out titles like "White Knight", "Apologist", "Tireless Defender" and so on? It's because of disingenuous posts like this one above Backfire.
1. The quicker updates are to increase short-term profits. Their entire release schedule is about that now.
2 (and easily the most egregious and wilfully ignorant of the above). They now increase prices with each release, rather than in a block. You'd have to be blind not to see that by now.
3. Based on what? When a new FAQ comes out I tend to look for people like Yakface to break them down, and he's often left posting little emORKticons like "" at whatever new nonsense GW has managed to come out with. The latest batches of FAQ's created different rules depending on what medium you owned the book, with FAQ's and digital editions contradicting one another. GW don't try all that hard when it comes to errata. If they did they'd be more frequent about it, and they'd certainly be more accurate.
Sean_OBrien wrote: Regarding the Hobbit vs. LotR - other licensed Middle Earth related products are doing well enough. Both games and toys. The movies are popular (though not quite as impressive) as the first go around - and various toys and games are moving pretty well (I haven't pressed for figures, but most I have asked say "about the same").
Regarding GW in general - with GenCon here...a lot of other companies are doing their presentations. FFG is still saying they are getting 25% or more annual growth.
Whatever GW are doing - they are doing it wrong.
Regarding GenCon. Here is another piece of anecdotal evidence of GW losing ground to competition:
Corvus Belli came with 5,000 copies of Infinity Operation: Icestorm. They sold out all 5,000 in the first two days. The SE miniature they brought, sold out in the very first hour of GenCon.
I'd be willing to bet their are other companies (FFG, Wyrd, et. al.) that are doing just as well.
GW us losing ground, and the market, very quickly at this point.
They didn't have 5000 copies with them. 5000 copies is the entire first print run of Icestorm, which includes the copies being sold through stores. If they sold all 5000 at Gencon, they'd have lots and lots of very angry and disappointed fans no longer getting the copy they'd paid money for through other stores.
They did, however, likely have several hundred copies at Gencon, which sold out.
I know Wyrd got 3 weeks of my hobby money from Gencon (that Whiskey Golem is wonderful).
Used to be common for publishers to bring around 1000 copies of a new release. While the bulk goes to regular sales, retailers and distributors would also watch reception and buy/order as well. The internet has no doubt lessened that, but you still normally have people buying for their whole group. 49K attendants are likely purchasing for 200K gamers.
That said...they had 750 copies at GenCon. All sold, very fast.
darefsky wrote: In all fairness Forgeworld has a sales booth at GenCon (or used to anyway).
That's because Forge World remain the only subsection of that company run by adults. It used to be them and Black Library, but BL succumbed to Horus Heresy-itis, and started doing limited edition books and not telling anyone about new releases until a week before and expensive hardbacks that no one asked for. Now FW remains the one group doing what they can to promote their product by going to various conventions across the world whilst fighting their own Horus Heresy-itis infection (it's already claimed their book-writing arm, but it hasn't spread to their brain yet).
darefsky wrote: In all fairness Forgeworld has a sales booth at GenCon (or used to anyway).
That's because Forge World remain the only subsection of that company run by adults. It used to be them and Black Library, but BL succumbed to Horus Heresy-itis, and started doing limited edition books and not telling anyone about new releases until a week before and expensive hardbacks that no one asked for. Now FW remains the one group doing what they can to promote their product by going to various conventions across the world whilst fighting their own Horus Heresy-itis infection (it's already claimed their book-writing arm, but it hasn't spread to their brain yet).
I know people love the Horus Heresy but I could care less about it. I hope they eventually get back to making products for usual game play instead of creating their own alternative game.
darefsky wrote: In all fairness Forgeworld has a sales booth at GenCon (or used to anyway).
That's because Forge World remain the only subsection of that company run by adults. It used to be them and Black Library, but BL succumbed to Horus Heresy-itis, and started doing limited edition books and not telling anyone about new releases until a week before and expensive hardbacks that no one asked for. Now FW remains the one group doing what they can to promote their product by going to various conventions across the world whilst fighting their own Horus Heresy-itis infection (it's already claimed their book-writing arm, but it hasn't spread to their brain yet).
Agreed. I still shake my head at the hard cover over $20 books. I mean come on GW...... Stupid pricing is stupid.... I can get a Jim Butcher or Larry Correia book for $8-10 on amazon and they are much better writers imho.
Did someone actually say that GW is handling FAQs better now? Farthest from the truth. I don't forget that 7E FAQs were days late and full of typos and copy + paste errors. When your errata needs errata, crap's bad.
TheKbob wrote: Did someone actually say that GW is handling FAQs better now? Farthest from the truth. I don't forget that 7E FAQs were days late and full of typos and copy + paste errors. When your errata needs errata, crap's bad.
I still find it ludicrous that every addition change / new codex drop needs a FAQ. Its poor planing and poor rules writing.
Through in data slates that co-release with a codex and it makes my brain melt that people still pay for this junk.
Until I look at the model. Why does it have an ugly head stuck outside a robot body?! It's not only impractical (I'm fine with the rule of cool), but that's definitely waaaay uncool.
Does anyone know if the head is interchangeable? I'm with you - I think it looks ridiculous, but leaving it off or swapping it with another would be passable.
Now about that name and fluff. . .
If I had enough money I would totally put a Razorgor head on the Murdernaught and mount him in a double-wide Wolf Chariot pulled by four wolves.
Until I look at the model. Why does it have an ugly head stuck outside a robot body?! It's not only impractical (I'm fine with the rule of cool), but that's definitely waaaay uncool.
Does anyone know if the head is interchangeable? I'm with you - I think it looks ridiculous, but leaving it off or swapping it with another would be passable.
Now about that name and fluff. . .
If I had enough money I would totally put a Razorgor head on the Murdernaught and mount him in a double-wide Wolf Chariot pulled by four wolves.
Until I look at the model. Why does it have an ugly head stuck outside a robot body?! It's not only impractical (I'm fine with the rule of cool), but that's definitely waaaay uncool.
Does anyone know if the head is interchangeable? I'm with you - I think it looks ridiculous, but leaving it off or swapping it with another would be passable.
Now about that name and fluff. . .
If I had enough money I would totally put a Razorgor head on the Murdernaught and mount him in a double-wide Wolf Chariot pulled by four wolves.
It is rather a lot to spend for a joke though.
I'm sure you could probably get some kind of Dakka collection going for that
TheKbob wrote: Did someone actually say that GW is handling FAQs better now? Farthest from the truth. I don't forget that 7E FAQs were days late and full of typos and copy + paste errors. When your errata needs errata, crap's bad.
And removed errata on 6th ed books (see also: Helldrake), confusing the issue on whether errata still applies
TheKbob wrote: Did someone actually say that GW is handling FAQs better now? Farthest from the truth. I don't forget that 7E FAQs were days late and full of typos and copy + paste errors. When your errata needs errata, crap's bad.
And removed errata on 6th ed books (see also: Helldrake), confusing the issue on whether errata still applies
You'll know the answer when you buy your next version; less content, more price, all errata! Best Value!
Pacific wrote: [8 year old me would have found it cool. But, the 10/11 year old me that first got into GW did so precisely because it didn't appear childish. Actually, WD 126 (the famous Eldar issue) was the first copy I picked up from a local newsagent. The miniatures, artwork and stories inside had a cool 'adult' edge to it, which separated it from the other toys that you are moving away from at that age.
I think an element of this is getting older (moving away from it as it is moving away from me) but I think a good number of the new releases are far more toy-like, and the company in general seems far more sanitised and much less edgy - I guess part of that is the change to a bigger and more professional company (no room for boobs or racial skin tones!) but a side consequence of that is that I think it actually then appeals less to the target age group that GW are going for.
That's one of the things about GW. Regarding the full version of that quote by C S Lewis:
“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
I've heard 'putting away the fear of childishness' as a defence for tabletop wargaming, which I'd agree with, and even applied to GW games I think it has a point; but I have a feeling most 10-12 year-olds got into 40Kbecause of that fear of childishness, or at least 'the desire to be very grown up'.
While there's a lot to like about GW's back-catalogue of fluff and minis, 40K has always been a bit goofy and OTT, and has become much more so (or less obviously tongue-in-cheek for the older gamer) in recent years. Though I'd guess that to a kid, at any point in GW's history, all the grimdarkness and ultraviolence must look dead badass, grown-up, and 'admirable'. Even the rules, with grown-up tables and fings, and centred around listbuilding and memorise-to-win, seem aimed at children coming off daytime cartoons, bland boardgames, and/or disorganised action figure/cops 'n' robbers games. After that I'd say it takes puberty, and occasionally a few extra years' worth of rehashes, for the novelty to wear thin.* Or to hold little appeal for a new, mature gamer.
Though for people who stick to it like a limpet for 20+ years... that's a whole 'nuther session on the couch.
*I call it the 'prequel syndrome'. Sure, Jar-Jar Binks and Mannequin Skywalker can't easily be called 'good' updates, but part of the problem has to be that we've gotten old since 1983. Or even 1980. We're not in the target market anymore.
I got into wargaming because I was into military science.
I hate to tell you this, but in no way does playing with toy soldiers count as 'very grown up'.
(The priest that introduced me to wargames also introduced me to RPGs - which he described as 'let's pretend, with rules'. He was also a huge fan of C. S. Lewis*, and used that quote extensively.)
Theres not wanting to be childish, and then theres not liking that something has grown so silly and over the top and just generally crap that its jumped the shark.
For me, 40K in recent years has become the latter. If I was ever worried about being childish, I would never have gotten into miniature wargaming in the first place.
(first Lord of the Rings, then Warhammer40K, and now I'm looking at starting Historical games)
For years my parents denigrated my hobby, calling it a waste of money and childish yet I stuck with it for the last 11 years. Its only in the last 3 years that I began to get really serious about painting and improving my skill that they became impressed and began to consider my hobby favourably.
Oh, I won't argue there - but the idea of miniatures being 'very grown up' is just silly.
Heck... take a look at Little Wars, which assumed that the wargamers were young, though the people that Wells played against were not children.
But the argument that GW has grown 'Very Childish' is true enough - the Space Wolves... are going to be tainted forever by what they did for this codex....
Backfire wrote: -quicker update schedule for Codices
-abandoning annual price hikes
-improved and more comprehensive FAQs
Do you want to know why so many at Dakka are quick to throw out titles like "White Knight", "Apologist", "Tireless Defender" and so on? It's because of disingenuous posts like this one above Backfire.
1. The quicker updates are to increase short-term profits. Their entire release schedule is about that now.
2 (and easily the most egregious and wilfully ignorant of the above). They now increase prices with each release, rather than in a block. You'd have to be blind not to see that by now.
3. Based on what? When a new FAQ comes out I tend to look for people like Yakface to break them down, and he's often left posting little emORKticons like "" at whatever new nonsense GW has managed to come out with. The latest batches of FAQ's created different rules depending on what medium you owned the book, with FAQ's and digital editions contradicting one another. GW don't try all that hard when it comes to errata. If they did they'd be more frequent about it, and they'd certainly be more accurate.
I'm no GW apologist, but I think it is disingenuine to automatically dismiss all possible reasons for GW's behaviour just because it also makes them a profit.
People have been asking for years for a faster release schedule, for online codices, for online updates. Now GW has given players all of these things. It might be that doing so increases short term profits... but at the same time, it does acquiesce to player demands. Which of those was the primary concern of GW is an exercise left to the reader, but I prefer to use Hanlon's Razor when making judgements like that.
People wanted online updates. Now we have online updates, and people are complaining that the books are out of sync and bashing GW for that. Well, what did you expect to happen?
People wanted faster release schedule. Now we have a 40k codex every month - and people are complaining that its too quick. I think there is a legitimate complaint here - there are just so many different rules coming out so fast that people really can't keep up. I think people were really asking for a codex every 2-3 months rather than waiting 10 years for a codex update for some people. But I think the far bigger problem is the balance between codexes and rules: if we could rely on things being balanced, a new codex every month wouldn't be a terrible thing, but it's really hard to play if next week there might be an army full of D-weapons or super-heavies around the corner.
You do have a valid point about the FAQ's. I did have a little bit of hope for them a while back - but they have actively regressed from that point. Look at the Tau FAQ. One (quite necessary for balance) errata about missile drones. There was a question/answer regarding suits with 2 of the same weapon, but it has disappeared. One change to a scenario in the Farsight supplement that no-one cares about. But nothing about the single most frequently asked question: can battlesuits suits fire 2 weapons on overwatch? Blargh. GWFAQ's are absolutely terrible.
Backfire wrote: -quicker update schedule for Codices
-abandoning annual price hikes
-improved and more comprehensive FAQs
Do you want to know why so many at Dakka are quick to throw out titles like "White Knight", "Apologist", "Tireless Defender" and so on? It's because of disingenuous posts like this one above Backfire.
1. The quicker updates are to increase short-term profits. Their entire release schedule is about that now.
2 (and easily the most egregious and wilfully ignorant of the above). They now increase prices with each release, rather than in a block. You'd have to be blind not to see that by now.
3. Based on what? When a new FAQ comes out I tend to look for people like Yakface to break them down, and he's often left posting little emORKticons like "" at whatever new nonsense GW has managed to come out with. The latest batches of FAQ's created different rules depending on what medium you owned the book, with FAQ's and digital editions contradicting one another. GW don't try all that hard when it comes to errata. If they did they'd be more frequent about it, and they'd certainly be more accurate.
I'm no GW apologist, but I think it is disingenuine to automatically dismiss all possible reasons for GW's behaviour just because it also makes them a profit.
People have been asking for years for a faster release schedule, for online codices, for online updates. Now GW has given players all of these things. It might be that doing so increases short term profits... but at the same time, it does acquiesce to player demands. Which of those was the primary concern of GW is an exercise left to the reader, but I prefer to use Hanlon's Razor when making judgements like that.
People wanted online updates. Now we have online updates, and people are complaining that the books are out of sync and bashing GW for that. Well, what did you expect to happen?
People wanted faster release schedule. Now we have a 40k codex every month - and people are complaining that its too quick. I think there is a legitimate complaint here - there are just so many different rules coming out so fast that people really can't keep up. I think people were really asking for a codex every 2-3 months rather than waiting 10 years for a codex update for some people. But I think the far bigger problem is the balance between codexes and rules: if we could rely on things being balanced, a new codex every month wouldn't be a terrible thing, but it's really hard to play if next week there might be an army full of D-weapons or super-heavies around the corner.
The problem with that is it assumes they do something that Kirby has said they specifically do not do - seek or ask for feedback of any kind. They just make their product and release it, and if it aligns with what the community wants, it's pretty much a coincidence.
If they released digital books, it's because they decided to internally, not because community outcry reached them. If they sped up the pace of releases, it's because they decided to internally, not because community outcry reached them.
Trasvi wrote: I'm no GW apologist, but I think it is disingenuine to automatically dismiss all possible reasons for GW's behaviour just because it also makes them a profit.
When GW has been acting purely with a short term profit motive, to ascribe something that is perfectly explained by that to something else that they have shown no evidence for is silly. By GWs own admission they do no research so they don't know what we want so they *can't* give us something that we want because we want it, if they give us something we want it's purely accidental at this point. They just give us what they want to make - they've said this.
Trasvi wrote: I'm no GW apologist, but I think it is disingenuine to automatically dismiss all possible reasons for GW's behaviour just because it also makes them a profit.
When GW has been acting purely with a short term profit motive, to ascribe something that is perfectly explained by that to something else that they have shown no evidence for is silly. By GWs own admission they do no research so they don't know what we want so they *can't* give us something that we want because we want it, if they give us something we want it's purely accidental at this point. They just give us what they want to make - they've said this.
Theres a lot of difference between the statement "We don't do market research" and "We have absolutely no idea at all what our customers want, and if they do talk to us we stick our fingers in our ears and sing 'lalala' until the pesky customer goes away".
I don't dispute that GW's main motivator is short term profit... but a really simple way to get short term profit is to give your customers what they want.
Trasvi wrote: I'm no GW apologist, but I think it is disingenuine to automatically dismiss all possible reasons for GW's behaviour just because it also makes them a profit.
When GW has been acting purely with a short term profit motive, to ascribe something that is perfectly explained by that to something else that they have shown no evidence for is silly. By GWs own admission they do no research so they don't know what we want so they *can't* give us something that we want because we want it, if they give us something we want it's purely accidental at this point. They just give us what they want to make - they've said this.
Theres a lot of difference between the statement "We don't do market research" and "We have absolutely no idea at all what our customers want, and if they do talk to us we stick our fingers in our ears and sing 'lalala' until the pesky customer goes away".
I don't dispute that GW's main motivator is short term profit... but a really simple way to get short term profit is to give your customers what they want.
How about the statement "We don't ask them what they want, they buy what we make"?
TheAuldGrump wrote: Oh, I won't argue there - but the idea of miniatures being 'very grown up' is just silly.
Heck... take a look at Little Wars, which assumed that the wargamers were young, though the people that Wells played against were not children.
But the argument that GW has grown 'Very Childish' is true enough - the Space Wolves... are going to be tainted forever by what they did for this codex....
The Auld Grump
meh, space wolves have always been dumb and they went fulltard ever since thunderwolf cavalry.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Oh, I won't argue there - but the idea of miniatures being 'very grown up' is just silly.
Heck... take a look at Little Wars, which assumed that the wargamers were young, though the people that Wells played against were not children.
But the argument that GW has grown 'Very Childish' is true enough - the Space Wolves... are going to be tainted forever by what they did for this codex....
The Auld Grump
Little Wars is a set of rules for adults to play with toy soldiers. Kriegsspiel is a military simulation that was used for training Prussian army staff officers.
All modern wargames sit somewhere on a spectrum between the two extremes.
The Wolf Chariot is a silly thing, but it does not affect the quality of rules and the level of the prices.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Oh, I won't argue there - but the idea of miniatures being 'very grown up' is just silly.
Heck... take a look at Little Wars, which assumed that the wargamers were young, though the people that Wells played against were not children.
But the argument that GW has grown 'Very Childish' is true enough - the Space Wolves... are going to be tainted forever by what they did for this codex....
The Auld Grump
Little Wars is a set of rules for adults to play with toy soldiers. Kriegsspiel is a military simulation that was used for training Prussian army staff officers.
All modern wargames sit somewhere on a spectrum between the two extremes.
The Wolf Chariot is a silly thing, but it does not affect the quality of rules and the level of the prices.
Except as yet another example of writing rules in order to sell an overpriced... thing.... (Thing is a much kinder word than what went through my head.)
I had the old metal Master of the Ravenwing - which even Jervis Johnson admitted made no sense, given that he was a close combat character, in a vehicle that could not enter close combat....
So, yes - the Wolf Chariot does affect the quality of the rules, and the level of the prices - both at the same time. Or, more accurately, is a symptom of those problems.
And it is still better than Murderclaw.... (Here comes Murderclaw, here comes Murderclaw, right down Murderclaw lane....)
It is an example or symptom of bad rules and design rather than the cause of the rest of the game breaking down.
If we are honest with ourselves, GW has never been a bastion of excellent rules writing. It produced rules that were mostly tolerable until a few years ago given the other attractions of the games.
It is mainly pricing that has tanked their sales recently. Also the realisation that things will never get any better, only more expensive.
Regarding the new Logan Grimnar on his wolf drawn chariot of derpiness. Is that the only way he can be fielded now or can he still be played on foot, in Terminator Armour like the classic model? Logan himself looks really cool - if I played Space Wolves, I'd stick him on a large piece of slate to give him some verticality (so he looks like he's atop a rocky outcrop spurring his men onwards to charge) and attach him to a squad of Wolf Guard Terminators.
At least with got the stuff that forgeworld churns out, their imperil armour and heresy books is what 40k should be like. it's a shame really whats happening to honestly an absolutely awesome product and universe
Backfire wrote: "No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.
I really think they are. What "changes in recent years" can you verify are because of customer feedback? I'm aware of literally zero.
I've mentioned them before, but here goes again:
-quicker update schedule for Codices
-abandoning annual price hikes
-improved and more comprehensive FAQs
You can verify they've done these because of customer feedback? And really..
-Customer feedback (that I saw) wanted oldest codexes redone first... why are GK already being redone?
-instead they're just hiking the price of "new" boxes. Significantly in many cases. Much stealthier method.
-This is a joke, right? They're not improved, and they're actually less comprehensive. Questions that were answered in the 6th edition versions are now up in the air again because they didn't copy/paste them over and their "awesome" rules writing didn't cover the issue.
So i played the Conquest, the GW equivalent to High Command, yesterday at the FLGS... and... i really enjoyed it.
Although it definitely screams "we are jsut aping PP, and hoping for spillover from their ideas/success" it was genuinely enjoyable.
My biggest complaint is that the game has 6 factions but is only has rules for 2 player games. This seems extra daft when the gameshop owner and I came up with a multiplayer version that worked with the existing framework (and better than high command, arguably) in the 5-10 mins we were chatting between our 1st and 2nd game.
Kiwidru wrote: So i played the Conquest, the GW equivalent to High Command, yesterday at the FLGS... and... i really enjoyed it.
Although it definitely screams "we are jsut aping PP, and hoping for spillover from their ideas/success" it was genuinely enjoyable.
My biggest complaint is that the game has 6 factions but is only has rules for 2 player games. This seems extra daft when the gameshop owner and I came up with a multiplayer version that worked with the existing framework (and better than high command, arguably) in the 5-10 mins we were chatting between our 1st and 2nd game.
Just to let you know, Fantasy Flight Games worked on 40k Conquest, not GW.
He's also written a few books for Privateer as well. I've only read the Makeda novella so far, but it was excellent.
Check out his "Hard Magic" series. They're excellent! I'm also the illustrator, so I may be biased. And yes,his Warmachine collection is enormous.
To tie that in with the topic. Larry wanted to get into miniatures so he looked around at his options. This was during the Spots the Space Marine thing and when he looked at GW he said "feth that company" and went to Warmachine. He was active on the forums and when PP saw that the New York Times best selling author played Warmachine, they asked him if he would maybe write something for them. Larry jumped at the chance because he's a huge fan.
So, some lessons: 1. Acting like incompetent bullies drives away potential customers and/or talent.
2. Taking an active part in an on-line community keeps you in touch with your players and you may find useful info and/or people.
TheAuldGrump: I'm not entirely sure if I'm being argued against, so I'll reiterate: I agree that it's all playing with toy soldiers. That's how I usually explain it to curious people. But I'd argue that the murderbloodskullwolf themes and reams of complicated and overpowered rules of GW's core two, might seem more mature - a more 'grown-up' type of toy and playing - to preteen boys who've only had relatively sanitised cartoon action figures, trading cards, and other such games and media at that point.
I'd guess it also contributed to Airfix's decline as a kid's introduction to wargaming. For a post-baby-boomer for whom even WWII doesn't register, raised on a visual diet of sci-fi from He-Man to TMNT to Ben 10, and a bit of fantasy, do you think they're more likely to be wowed by flashy minis of vicious, armoured space commandos, anarchic punk orks, gribbly space bugs etc, or some slightly chewed-looking napoleonics in the same taking-a-step pose? I knew which ones I preferred, even in my late teens, and that the 'dangerous'-looking covers of White Dwarf in the newsagents caught my eye long before I knew Games Workshop was a thing.
(Not to say earlier and some current GW minis don't look a bit chewed, but I think a great many historical minis still do, despite my interest in that side of gaming)
'Course there's the thing about kids getting all that from computer games these days, without having to build and paint minis and look up the rules, and how that factors into the decline of GW. That's a whole other matter that I'm even less qualified to comment on. Though if it is a significant distraction, it could ironically make tabletop wargaming even more of a 'grown up's' pursuit, and make GW's chasing little Timmy's parents via little Timmy even more daft and blinkered.
I think it's still possible to get kids interested in wargaming in this age of video games. I discovered the hobby long after I knew about/played video games. For me, tabletop games have the entertainment value of strategy games, with an added benefit of personal artistry and tangible results.
I would think that some of the appeal of "traditional" wargaming (i.e. historical) even to kids today would be for the history lesson. Yes it's cool to do all cool sci-fi fantasy stuff like in movies, but some kids would be interested in say Ancient Rome, or the Civil War or Napoleonics or WW2 and there's appeal in a wargame that lets you play that as well. Fun, creativity and learning all in one.
Something I've been wondering about today:
What can GW do for next year's annual report? They've already released a new 40K edition, and they're on a rapid release cycle for new codices and models for 40K. Once they've burned through all 40K has to offer them, what do they do next? They could give WFB the same treatment, but WFB is not as successful as 40K.
Vermis wrote: TheAuldGrump: I'm not entirely sure if I'm being argued against, so I'll reiterate: I agree that it's all playing with toy soldiers. That's how I usually explain it to curious people. But I'd argue that the murderbloodskullwolf themes and reams of complicated and overpowered rules of GW's core two, might seem more mature - a more 'grown-up' type of toy and playing - to preteen boys who've only had relatively sanitised cartoon action figures, trading cards, and other such games and media at that point.
I'd guess it also contributed to Airfix's decline as a kid's introduction to wargaming. For a post-baby-boomer for whom even WWII doesn't register, raised on a visual diet of sci-fi from He-Man to TMNT to Ben 10, and a bit of fantasy, do you think they're more likely to be wowed by flashy minis of vicious, armoured space commandos, anarchic punk orks, gribbly space bugs etc, or some slightly chewed-looking napoleonics in the same taking-a-step pose? I knew which ones I preferred, even in my late teens, and that the 'dangerous'-looking covers of White Dwarf in the newsagents caught my eye long before I knew Games Workshop was a thing.
(Not to say earlier and some current GW minis don't look a bit chewed, but I think a great many historical minis still do, despite my interest in that side of gaming)
'Course there's the thing about kids getting all that from computer games these days, without having to build and paint minis and look up the rules, and how that factors into the decline of GW. That's a whole other matter that I'm even less qualified to comment on. Though if it is a significant distraction, it could ironically make tabletop wargaming even more of a 'grown up's' pursuit, and make GW's chasing little Timmy's parents via little Timmy even more daft and blinkered.
I think that I was taking your statement as about wargaming in general - and when I entered into wargaming I was assuming that I was entering into a hobby for an extended childhood. (I also knew a number of model railroaders, back then... there was no shame in continuing to play with toys in my associates.)
That said... I have a hard time swallowing the idea that GW's IP, in its current incarnation, can in any way be viewed as more mature.
Heck, Rogue Trader was aimed square at the market for 2000AD comics.
But then, I am old enough to remember when Rogue Trader was new and shiny, and the beaky marines were available in large numbers - in regular bookstores. (I bought mine in Booksmith.)
My own evolution was Napoleonics --> Avalon Hill boardgames --> D&D/Chainmail --> Warhammer -->Battlesystem -->WH40K --> Necromunda --> Mordheim --> Kings of War. But, much of that evolution is cumulative in nature. I still played Warhammer after getting Battlesystem, and I still play Necromunda, Mordheim, and D&D. My Warhammer playing began with 1st edition, skipped 2nd, and I still play 3rd now and again. Warhammer 1st edition was actually a pretty simple game.
I originally got Chainmail so I could play a 30 Years War game. (Not a great system for that, I'm afraid... but it was the only one that I knew of that had a write up for Gustavus Adolphus. (Gustav II Adolf was a hero to my early teen self. For a bit of irony, the person that introduced me to the historic Gustav II Adolf was a Catholic priest... with Lutheran sympathies. It came up because of the book Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen, which was one of the books in a summer reading program.)
So, I was likely atypical, even at the time. (Lots of folks have stories about their religion being against RPGs - I was introduced to D&D by a Catholic priest, in the basement of the Unitarian church in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. There were twelve players in that first game, and by the third game I was the DM.)
An illusion of maturity never entered into it.
The first minis that I ever painted were Minifig Prussians... sold in lots of thirty to a plastic bag hung from a peg.
The Auld Grump - when I first read the magazine that would become The Dragon it was titled The Strategic Review....
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Guildsman wrote: I think it's still possible to get kids interested in wargaming in this age of video games. I discovered the hobby long after I knew about/played video games. For me, tabletop games have the entertainment value of strategy games, with an added benefit of personal artistry and tangible results.
This is where Mordheim and Necromunda could really shine - I have lost track of how many people I have introduced to fantasy wargaming with Mordheim. (I used to run it at a summer program....)
Tannhauser42 wrote: Something I've been wondering about today:
What can GW do for next year's annual report? They've already released a new 40K edition, and they're on a rapid release cycle for new codices and models for 40K. Once they've burned through all 40K has to offer them, what do they do next? They could give WFB the same treatment, but WFB is not as successful as 40K.
I honestly have no idea. WHFB won't bring in as much money as 40K, period. The popularity isn't there, for a variety of reasons (pricing being a major one). The upcoming Nagash supplement is interesting, but not even close to enough to help things along. After that, what? Update every WHFB army book? Start updating 40K codices again?
This is part of why I think the collapse will happen a lot faster than anyone expects. This year was bad, and GW managed to pull out several major releases. Now that they've emptied the chambers...
Tannhauser42 wrote: Something I've been wondering about today:
What can GW do for next year's annual report? They've already released a new 40K edition, and they're on a rapid release cycle for new codices and models for 40K. Once they've burned through all 40K has to offer them, what do they do next? They could give WFB the same treatment, but WFB is not as successful as 40K.
I honestly have no idea. WHFB won't bring in as much money as 40K, period. The popularity isn't there, for a variety of reasons (pricing being a major one). The upcoming Nagash supplement is interesting, but not even close to enough to help things along. After that, what? Update every WHFB army book? Start updating 40K codices again?
This is part of why I think the collapse will happen a lot faster than anyone expects. This year was bad, and GW managed to pull out several major releases. Now that they've emptied the chambers...
Not doing any market research, but maybe because the Horus Heresy is doing well they will be coming out with apocalypse 30K? ( i am sure they will come out with the other 6 wolves for Logan's sled
Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet and Cupid )
Tannhauser42 wrote: Something I've been wondering about today:
What can GW do for next year's annual report? They've already released a new 40K edition, and they're on a rapid release cycle for new codices and models for 40K. Once they've burned through all 40K has to offer them, what do they do next? They could give WFB the same treatment, but WFB is not as successful as 40K.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Something I've been wondering about today:
What can GW do for next year's annual report? They've already released a new 40K edition, and they're on a rapid release cycle for new codices and models for 40K. Once they've burned through all 40K has to offer them, what do they do next? They could give WFB the same treatment, but WFB is not as successful as 40K.
8th edition 40K.
But what about when the half year reports still suck? 9th edition? 10th edition?
Ok that joke is getting pretty old but yes, there really isn't much left GW can pump out to make a quick buck now. 7th ed Apoc? 7th ed Space Marines? I doubt anyone wants them so soon.
Notice Corvus Belli's growth particularly in the last four years - when GW made the decision to become WHFB/WH40k only.
It is this which is going to kill them. Lots of smaller competitors each eating up a portion of their market share. GW struggles and declines while their competitors (which they do not recognize) grow like gangbusters.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Something I've been wondering about today:
What can GW do for next year's annual report? They've already released a new 40K edition, and they're on a rapid release cycle for new codices and models for 40K. Once they've burned through all 40K has to offer them, what do they do next? They could give WFB the same treatment, but WFB is not as successful as 40K.
8th edition 40K.
But what about when the half year reports still suck? 9th edition? 10th edition?
Ok that joke is getting pretty old but yes, there really isn't much left GW can pump out to make a quick buck now. 7th ed Apoc? 7th ed Space Marines? I doubt anyone wants them so soon.
Supplements will, if anything, reduce popularity as they increase the complexity of their product and the costs of starting up for any new players.
If they want to save they could easily re-release mordhiem and Inquisitor. They'd only need to do rules production and a boxed set, not even any new models barring maybe a handful for launch. That would net them the cut of the small scale skirmish pie that they've basically been losing and leaving wide open for other manufacturers to fill.
Heck Bloodbowl would be another insanely popular line to re-release .
GW has a lot of passed success and many new manufacturers are just re-releasing what GW used to do.
What they need to do is find out why so many people have stopped buying things, and change those factors. My guess is that price has a lot to do with it.
The rapid price increases in the past five or so years did not lead to a rapid increase of sales. This showed that people were scaling back their purchases, or just dropping out.
The leap of codexes from £15 to £30 and the rules from £30 to £45 then £50 stopped a lot of people from buying them. Those same people then had no reason to buy new models for their armies, and that meant they stopped playing against people who did buy new books and units.
Result: worst drop in sales for 10 years.
These no-longer GW players see that for the price of a single unit, like the Knight Titan and its rulebook, they could buy an entire new game from some other company.
Issuing more expensive kits and rulebooks is not going to bring back those lost customers. Nor will a new game if it costs too much.
I am somewhat more optimistic about GW's prospects than Wayshuba. GW are still profitable and have money in the bank. They need to reverse the trend of sales falling, and they have money to do it with. If their next interim report does not show an improvement, though, I will join the pessimist camp.
If anything GW might actually benefit from dropping out of the stock market. At present they are still a healthy, profit making company and are not on the rocks - but the stock market perspective blights them because they are not making the huge gains that people in stock want to see.
A part of their loss also isn't just them but the market expanding - in the past they were pretty much the only solid optoin; other games were very localised and fringe and didn't always last that long or build up a huge playerbase. Then Privateer Press came along and that was ok, it was only one big competition. Now we've got KS taking huge chunks of money from individuals - we've got multiple companies not only lasting but thriving in the market. The pie has been cut into more segments so GW is going to see a loss unless they can make the pie significantly bigger (Lord of the Rings did that for a while but it was a short term bubble that burst rather than one that turned into a bit of the core pie)
It would also mean that they could re-focus - its clear that the upper levels of GW are focused too much upon the shareholders and not enough upon their customer base. They are fixated upon appeasing those shareholders more so than their own customers and that trickles right down the through the company to the ground level and how they interact (or currently fail to interact) with their customer base.
The problem there is that they would need to buy back their stock, which costs money.
Remember - Kirby & the Kronies are not in this busines because they love games (or even know much at all about those games) but because they want to make money.
As a result, they really have no idea why sales are tanking...
Though I seem to recall that a stock buy back is on the schedule for this year. (But... if the folks like Kirby are the ones selling back their shares... it may be just for a quick profit.)
Herzlos wrote: What supplements will be able to turn things round?
I really think at this stage they either need a new race or a new game, rather than just a re-hash.
Squats?
I was thinking Lizardmen or Slann, or even Saruthi.
Overread wrote: If anything GW might actually benefit from dropping out of the stock market. At present they are still a healthy, profit making company and are not on the rocks - but the stock market perspective blights them because they are not making the huge gains that people in stock want to see.
The problem isn't the fact it's publicly traded per se. The problem is that the upper management has no idea what it's doing; taking it away from the stock market won't change that. It just means that Kirby would stop getting ~£800k/year in dividends, which he'd no doubt make up for in profits.
Yes, GW's problem isn't that they're a publicly traded company, it's that they're managed by people who aren't qualified to manage a publicly traded company.
The key surprise about the report was that Kirby in his preamble tried so hard to gloss over the presence of a massive elephant in the room -- the awful sales performance -- and said absolutely nothing about how he was going to address it.
That does not look like a CEO who is responsive to the concerns of his shareholders.
Aye but he's stepping down as head isn't he - and considering his performance I'd be surprised if he gets voted to stay on (unless he's really managed to structure the upper levels so completely that they are all in his back pocket)
He is staying as Chairman if and when they find a replacement CEO; he will have great influence over that selection process of course.
The new CEO won't come on board until 2015. It then takes him or her some months to get up to speed with things and develop some plans for change, which the rest of the board need to support.
One of the complaints against the GW board is how long they have all been serving together. The danger of this is that it tends to lead to groupthink. We don't know how unhappy they are with things ATM.
Anyway, even if Kirby hires an independently minded person, they may not be able to do anything effective. If they can get something done, it may be too late. If GW have another year as bad as the last one they will be heading into actual loss-making territory.
Ultimately GW took the originally idea of a group of mates gaming around a table and turned it into a cash cow. From a brutal profit making POV it makes sense, but from a gaming POV it's just harsh & cold.
The above is probably one of the funniest things I have ever read on dakka. I don't need an excuse to quote it! 
(Seriously, if time is a concern, 
