I agree that foul blightspawn has become an auto include for me, (of course with the vicious death pathogen).
Being able to pop the strategum for 1 cp to let him have a 18" range on his flamer is pretty crazy, and 4-5 S:8 AP-3 D:2 auto hitting attacks is no joke. Not to mention the extreme utility of his relic and aura. Absolute gas.
I'm also loathe to acknowledge "auto-takes", but agree with everyone that Tallyman is definitely one, and Foul Blightspawn probably is. The later is such a mind-**** deterant that it doesn't even need to do anything to start effecting your opponent's play. Tallyman, meanwhile just provides shocking value for points. All those CP, plus elevates some units to being surprisingly killy as a bonus.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I'm also loathe to acknowledge "auto-takes", but agree with everyone that Tallyman is definitely one, and Foul Blightspawn probably is.
It might be a good idea to take two Tallymen in a foetid virion, one to go forward and act as a buff while the other can stay back and simply be used to farm CP.
spawn couters itself some armies out there, who charge 10 termies with tallyman+spawn? and to win in this game you need melee. Now with DA termies around is critical attack first (just an example)
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I'm also loathe to acknowledge "auto-takes", but agree with everyone that Tallyman is definitely one, and Foul Blightspawn probably is.
It might be a good idea to take two Tallymen in a foetid virion, one to go forward and act as a buff while the other can stay back and simply be used to farm CP.
No need. This weekend the wife ran a single Tallyman as a buddy to a Relic Contemptor and he contributed a TON offensively from essentially the backfield.
Can the “Champion of Disease” stratagem be used to give a Deathshroud champion or Blightlord champion a Plague Company relic that they are a part of? BattleScribe doesn’t allow me to select Infected Remains with the strat for my Champion in a Harbingers detachment. I don’t think it’s some power move or anything but I can figure out why it doesn’t seem legal.
Thanks!
Champion of Disease is limited to Reaper of Glorious Entropy, Plague Skull of Glothila, Plague Bringer and the Supurating Plate. It does not work for relics in general.
I’m on the fence about the whole Harbingers aura, and the infected remains relic in general. I love the idea of dropping it on the center objective or even an opponents backfield objective to make the end game units in those locations -1t and disincentivize being near that objective. The best way to drop that would be on a deep striking terminator model, and that leaves now a LoC, LoV or sorcerer in terminator armor.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a bonus nerf, the model dropping the remains has to be alive for the relic to work later in the game. Might be garbage but man it seems good, probably needs to be dropped off by a flying prince, but again, you’re already gonna have the objective and the opponent won’t really ever be near it anyways.
It's also worth noting that some missions like scorched earth or overrun don't have a center objective.
I've tried to use the relic twice to no effect. The idea is great, but it's just to difficult to set it up. In future, I'd rather just have the same model throw the grenade relic at something.
The grenade relic is great to take on a champion rather than a character. Where you use it in the movement phase you can often break out of combat with it, especially if followed up with a smite.
Plague skull of Glothila: Once per battle, at the end of movement phase, we can use this relic to lob this grenade at an opponent unit 6 inches away. Roll seven D6, for each 4 or 5, that unit suffers 1 mortal wound, for each 6 that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds.
It can be taken on a champion. Pretty nifty grenade.
It's so awesome due to being able to throw it whilst in combat or at a unit that's in combat or at a character that wouldn't be targettable. I think it must average about 5 MWs so pretty great for character sniping...
blackmage wrote: two psykers are enough for me too, still not sold on MBH honestly 420pts are really too much. For me blightspawn with relic and tallyman are auto take
Can someone enlighten me on why +1 to hit for a Core unit is so good? I understand about the chance for CPs, and that might be enough, but I don't seem to have nearly as much trouble getting my DG to hit as I do getting them to stick any damage.
My preferred Virion model is the Plague Surgeon, because he helps with the durability of my already-durable PMs. I usually run a Foul Blightspawn (because duh), a Biologus Putrifier, and a Surgeon.
blackmage wrote: two psykers are enough for me too, still not sold on MBH honestly 420pts are really too much. For me blightspawn with relic and tallyman are auto take
Can someone enlighten me on why +1 to hit for a Core unit is so good? I understand about the chance for CPs, and that might be enough, but I don't seem to have nearly as much trouble getting my DG to hit as I do getting them to stick any damage.
My preferred Virion model is the Plague Surgeon, because he helps with the durability of my already-durable PMs. I usually run a Foul Blightspawn (because duh), a Biologus Putrifier, and a Surgeon.
Tell me why I'm wrong!
What makes the marine apothecaries so good isnt necessarily the 6++, but being able to revive models from the dead. They are easily able to recoup the point investment usually.
The plague surgeon just provides the 6++, and as it turns out for the point investment *usually* its better to just bring a few extra marines.
For example, for his price you can get 3 plague marines. 6 wounds. So, for the plague surgeon to recoup his value back, the squad he is protecting would need to take around 36 wounds (36/6=6). 36 wounds might just be too much for the squad to survive anyways. My math isnt perfect, and doesnt account for everything, but I think it conveys the idea. Now, if you castle really hard, take multiple blocks of terminators near him, with fugaris helm and maybe the droning so you can pop a strategum to make his aura range like 12", then thats a different story. But just with plague marines, plague surgeon has been meh for me, both in paper and on the battlefield.
Honestly same kinda goes for the Biologus Putrifier, just comparing him to 3 marines doesn't really incentive me to take him. And while as discussed earlier, Assasinate can be a trap pick against DG, you still want to be cautious bringing 3+ foetid virion models, as every character is a potential 3 points. Tallyman does something unique in its CP farming that has value outside of survivability/damage compared to 3 marines, and same with Foul Blightspawn with its abilities and weapon.
That is my take on them at least.
I agree with ninjafiredragon that the plague surgeon feels very lackluster compared to his Space Marine counterpart. The Space Marine counterpart is in my mind nuts with all the healing and reviving.
I do want to test out Biologus Putrifer with Blightlords though. If anyone has a lot of experience with him any info would be appreciated.
+1 to hit is huge with large blobs of termies/pm or things like culverin contemptors, hiting on 2's rerolling 1's is big. Get average 5Cp each game is good too you can spend Cp's and you know that they will be refunded. Some DG lists are CP hungry, tallyman is an auto take for me. Think about 5-6 Ds termy using manreaper cleave without -1 to hit..just a simple example, 10pm hitting on 2's rerolling 1's with a billion of attacks, remember lot of armies have/will have access to -1 to hit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldarsif wrote: I agree with ninjafiredragon that the plague surgeon feels very lackluster compared to his Space Marine counterpart. The Space Marine counterpart is in my mind nuts with all the healing and reviving.
I do want to test out Biologus Putrifer with Blightlords though. If anyone has a lot of experience with him any info would be appreciated.
10bl with an archcontaminator biologus, they reset almost anything they touch, same witjh 5-6 deathshrouds, he is still quite good if you play large bunch of Pm, 18 autohits rerolling to wound auto hits dishing out mortals at 6... something to think about.
Yeh just to reiterate ninjafiredragon's comments regarding the plague surgeon. To work out his value you need to think about what you are likely able to keep within his aura. Take the number of wounds and divide by 5.
So if you are planning to have him babysit 10 Blightlords for an entire game, 30/5 = 6 wounds. So he's giving you the durability of 2 BLs which is 80pts. Bare in mind he doesn't have the damage output the two BLs can provide that's just his break even.
In reality he probably needs to have 3 decent sized units of terminators within his aura for a few turns to prove his worth. And that's not a simple task.
Obviously the healing is a bonus but I've found anecdotally that I very often have no wounded models for him to heal. The lack of revival ability really kills him for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The BioP is great with deathshroud. I run mine with arch contaminator.
The other night I charged into a unit of 6 dark angels bladeguard witha -1 damage stratagem/spell? on them. He obviously knew about deathshrouds high strength high ap 2D attacks and had the perfect buffs to presume I'd just bounce off them. (Transhuman, invuln, -1D).
The sweep attack combined with arch contaminator and the BioP is just horrific for turning up 6s on wounds. I can't quite remember how exactly it went down but I honestly think I killed at least four or five just from mortal wounds and he didn't even bother throwing all the saves for the regular wounds that got through.
The BioP is great with deathshroud. I run mine with arch contaminator.
How big of a block of Deathshrouds? Currently aiming to have 2 x 3 squads of them as their output has always been good.
2x3 is fine, or i tried 5 with champion of disease upgrade ,relic reper and chimes of contagion, expensive but they destroy anything they touch
biologus with archcontaminator make them true killers.
I've been running them as a unit of 6. I know that's unpopular due to blast/coherency but it hasn't been an issue for me so far and gives a bit of redundancy to losing a couple before they get stuck in.
It doesn't always make a difference, but you really don't want to have 6 terminators if there is a rift cannon or a bunch of guard artillery on the other side.
Rift cannon is nasty admittedly, but most of the time if you're facing guard artillery they are running them as catachans or have gunnery experts so the minimum 3 isn't kicking in an awful lot. For me I've found I'd rather have the extra redundancy, after the first kill the blast bonus is gone anyway. It's not like taking 6 as opposed to 5 is resulting in the difference that the entire squad is wiped out.
blackmage wrote: 5 makes not difference they hit hard as trucks anyway...so why get more vulnerable to blast weapon just for one extra model?
As i said, attrition basically. There's a small chance that having 6 may result in them being vulnerable to more damage but it's only until the first one dies. Lets take the rift cannon as an example of something that is really nasty. Against a unit of 5 it has a 10/9 chance of killing a Deathshroud against a unit of 6 that rises to 15/9 so the odds are you're still gonna only lose one, admittedly you might lose two and then you're left with 4 in the squad anyway and wasted 50pts. After that first casualty it's moot.
In reality most of the time you're not coming up against a rift cannon and blast makes no difference to whether or not you lose the first model, it's more like a unit of Plasma Inceptors might get an extra wound through or something. I'd rather start with 6 and as I inevitably take casualties they are still doing damage in turn 4 or 5 and the relic wielding champion is that little bit safer.
If blast weapons start punishing me for taking 6 i might change my mind but so far it hasn't been an issue...
Speaking of blast, I ran a test game of my DG vs Chaos Knights, a list running a Castellan tyrant, double thermal knight and lots of armigers. My DG list wasn’t even really competitive and it was largely due to being “blasted,” eating max volcano Lance, max thermal cannons and max plasma vs my Blightlords block and my large pox walker bricks really ruined my day. Additionally, even three PBCs didn’t offer nearly enough ranged firepower to take down a big knight and if I didn’t focus on the melee armigers, I would have been over whelmed by them. I had it set up with a good amount of obscuring terrain, but it just wasn’t enough. I was able to counter charge with mower drones, demon prince and deep striking death shroud, but they were smoked as soon as they took down an armiger.
Some take aways: the old idea that your list needs to be able to down a large knight a turn is probably still relevant. Next, staying power is important but apparently doesn’t stand up to insane knight shooting. Lastly, “blast” is a thing and it really really hurt me that game.
blackmage wrote: 5 makes not difference they hit hard as trucks anyway...so why get more vulnerable to blast weapon just for one extra model?
Also, if you really want to take 6 Deathshrouds it does feel like it is better to take two squads of 3. That way you can offer threat in different zones and the sergeant provides you with that extra attack as well.
Currently building a list(4 Termies and 10 poxwalkers to paint) that has 2x3 Deathshrouds and 2x5 Terminators with one flail each. Then just 80 poxwalkers along with Typhus. I just feel like DS and BL termies are so expensive that if you build a large squad of them you are limiting your threat range and objective capture potential.
Brymm wrote: Speaking of blast, I ran a test game of my DG vs Chaos Knights, a list running a Castellan tyrant, double thermal knight and lots of armigers. My DG list wasn’t even really competitive and it was largely due to being “blasted,” eating max volcano Lance, max thermal cannons and max plasma vs my Blightlords block and my large pox walker bricks really ruined my day. Additionally, even three PBCs didn’t offer nearly enough ranged firepower to take down a big knight and if I didn’t focus on the melee armigers, I would have been over whelmed by them. I had it set up with a good amount of obscuring terrain, but it just wasn’t enough. I was able to counter charge with mower drones, demon prince and deep striking death shroud, but they were smoked as soon as they took down an armiger.
Some take aways: the old idea that your list needs to be able to down a large knight a turn is probably still relevant. Next, staying power is important but apparently doesn’t stand up to insane knight shooting. Lastly, “blast” is a thing and it really really hurt me that game.
Everyone will be factoring requiring the ability to kill a knight because of stuff like Mortarion as well. Knights seem to be a sort of natural counter to us because our shooting isn't that great, especially against T8, and big knights can't be locked up in combat. Luckily knight lists aren't quite that common these days.
So I’ve come around to thinking plagueburst crawlers as our vegetable unit. Nobody is excited to be using them, but we have to because they fill a niche that we are weak in. Here’s hoping that GW will learn that core as it’s currently implemented is a bad idea.
Knights aren’t really a problem. Tons of our CC can handle theme pretty easily. Especially when start throwing in mortal wounds from things like the poxwalker combo.
My question is are people thinking that a 10 man blightlord squad is the way to go over 2 5 man? At first I thought the answer is a for sure yes due to buff stacking, but MSU is usually best in 9th and we actually like the CP on other places as well. Tallyman 2+ is a big incentive to take the 10 man though.
Buff stacking sure incentivizes a 10 man brick, even with blast weapons being out there. It really only suffers to knight level weapons and if that’s the case, I would suggest deep striking them. Against all other threats, a large unit functions like the Death Stars of old, can be given -1 to hit, 6+ fnp, can be selected for tallyman, can benefit from turning their guns into plague weapons or +1 to wound and are really almost unkillable in the center of the battlefield.
The only reason I’ve toyed with 2 five mans was to meet my requirements to get 3 squads of pox walkers.
Knights aren’t really a problem. Tons of our CC can handle theme pretty easily. Especially when start throwing in mortal wounds from things like the poxwalker combo.
Hmm, I don't know. A knight exploding in our midst (because we killed them in melee) would do a heck of a lot of MW on our army and MW is something our army doesn't like. There are strategems on exploding in both knight codex I think.
I ran a chaos Knights list last night. Full disclosure it was first time playing pure chaos Knights but I do think my list was reasonably well tuned and I don't think I made any terrible mistakes.
They were just utterly outclassed by a pretty uncompetitive space wolves army. The most effective thing they did all game was when my Knight Tyrant exploded.
I don't think Knights are anything to worry about, they're not durable enough, they don't have enough damage output and they suck at the mission.
No inv saves in melee and no real way to dictate fight order (there's a fight first trait but that is trumped by fight last abilities) or counter things like the FBS or loyalists mind worm just means they can't really compete in the objective grabbing meta game.
I think you bring up great points, but the things your bring up, Death Guard doesn’t do. We aren’t a fast moving melee hammer army, which I agree really rips up knights. DG is Morty plus stuff or a big brick of terminators with smaller groups of melee terminators trying to make 9” charges out of reserve. We try to rely on resilience to make sure we win the objective game, and win the war of attrition backed by hard hitting counter charges, all the while the heart of our army is immune to hard hitting charge threats due to FBS and his super relic. Knights just shoot with impunity because our ranged firepower can’t scratch a knight. If we try mortal wound shenanigans, we still gotta get close.
The space wolves example is exactly why knights aren’t good versus the field.
no because they are unable to take/keep objectives...i saw an IK player play against a Dg piloted by a very good player (pull some win in old ITC) and IK had nothing on table end game, and lost. Again remember you cant stay away from DG and try to shoot it out of table you need to close up and move on objectives.
I've been toying with the idea of a 3 daemon prince list. Extremely heavy on CP, as you have to fork out 4cp at minimum for the privilege (3× patrol detachments, warlord in one) but you can give each one a warlord trait and relic with the stratagems (4 additional CP, by my count).
Load them up with supporting plate, warp insect hive, and maybe the plague skull of glothila. Combine with the three resilience WTs, and you have a very tough and deadly trio who can't be shot at while screened.
Been brought up here before but it might be a tough sell to try to play hero hammer with our book. This might seem crazy, but the princes just aren’t Killy enough or cheap enough to be thrown in as a missile and trade with something. If you’re using them to clear off an objective of say 5 Primaris marines, the prince is likely to die in counter assault or counter shooting after. Making that trade probably isn’t the best 185 you can spend, since he’ll give up bring it down or assassination points.
My two cents!
Played vs. my wife's Emperor's Children today, and their Prince makes the DG Prince look adorable by comparison. If our Codex is any indication the age of top-tier Princes is likely ending across the board for Chaos.
DP is still useful if you want a relic holder who is relatively fast. For example, if you need someone to keep pace with a trio of MBH. Or some chaos spawn, or some FBD.
DP is also the only way you can fit two heroes who give rerolls to 1 into one batallion. So, a Lord and a DP. Unless you replace the DP with Mortarion of course. But not everyone has a Mortarion.
With the last FAQ the DP is ok, but only because you can't have another lord. Instead of forking out CP for another detachment, I'd just add another unit of 3 deathshroud.
Brymm wrote: I think you bring up great points, but the things your bring up, Death Guard doesn’t do. We aren’t a fast moving melee hammer army, which I agree really rips up knights. DG is Morty plus stuff or a big brick of terminators with smaller groups of melee terminators trying to make 9” charges out of reserve. We try to rely on resilience to make sure we win the objective game, and win the war of attrition backed by hard hitting counter charges, all the while the heart of our army is immune to hard hitting charge threats due to FBS and his super relic. Knights just shoot with impunity because our ranged firepower can’t scratch a knight. If we try mortal wound shenanigans, we still gotta get close.
The space wolves example is exactly why knights aren’t good versus the field.
Knights are good against us.
I disagree tbh. Knights just don't hurt us significantly and as blackmage says, they can't just stay away and shoot, they have to start sitting on objectives to win the game. The 4++ on our terminators just shuts down their shooting which is so paltry when you actually look at it properly.
140pts for a wardog which basically has a swingy D3 multimelta with the old melta damage rule? It has about a 1/5 chance of killing a DG terminator with it's Thermal Spear. 1/3 chance with the autocannons but then they are completely unable to mix it up in the objective slog.
A Knight Despoiler firing a twin Avenger Gatling will be lucky to kill 2 Terminators, it's other main gun options fair worse.
For an army of giant superheavys that are supposed to pump out horrific amounts of firepower they're just not remotely killy enough anymore
I’m ready to let this die but avenger Gatling cannons are the absolute worst weapon against DG, and probably won’t be fielded any longer as long as DG is a main army out there.
Double thermal knights rolling Endless Torment. Volcano Lances. The thermal spear in endless torment is scary, getting charged when not in Stench Vat range by chain glaives is bad news. Even autocannon shooting is significant if you are going PMs instead of terminators, and aren’t a joke against terminators either. Again, your mileage may vary but of all of the armies that I worry about, Knights is the one.
We handle Space Marines if we can handle the eradicators / attack bikes. We handle hordes. We handle eldar especially if you still use plague spitters and bolters. I even think we’re hearty enough to handle Ad Mech shooting. Unless the meta really moves out of D2 guns or relying on counter assault to take objectives, we’re gonna be in a good spot.
If I hadn’t got completely blown away in that game, I might have a different opinion, but I just could work through what my list was going to do to win that game. And I admit I’m not the greatest list builder or player, but what do we have to “kill a knight a turn?” We don’t. And how long do we live vs a Castellen firing for 5 turns? If the plan just to score primary/secondary points and be tabled? What secondaries are we taking? Titan Hunter which we won’t score? Or just score one? Are we relying on a 9 inch charge out of deep strike with death shroud? While we stand while we hide our units to try to score 10?
Try to play it out, get some big circles for the knights you don’t own, pull up battle scribe, and try to figure out how you play around knights.
And I don’t even think knights are good! Most armies “kill a knight a turn” with super efficient shooting with anti tank weapons. Eradicators, harlequins even double shooting hive guard and exocrenes can take down knights from a distance. We just don’t have the choices. We could overpay for haulers? Which I don’t think is that bad of an idea?
I don't want to argue with you, more reassure you. As i said, it was my first time playing chaos knights but i'd read a lot of guidance on what people were having most success with so I'm pretty confident my list wasn't turd. From what I can tell, it doesn't seem to me like many people are running 3+ knights anymore. I ran a tyrant and a despoiler with 6 wardogs, 2 volkite moirax and 4 thermal spears. I didn't take Endless Torment. Maybe that was a mistake but I took Harrying Packs and Abominable Constitution to try to stay mobile and play the mission. I might post in the Chaos Knights thread and see what advice people can give there.
Fact is though, we have plenty in our army to take on Wardogs and the fact is that's probably all you need to. I conceded turn 3 the other night with my Despoiler and one of the Moirax on full wounds and everything else dead. There was no way back on a hold 2/hold 3 mission with 2 models left and i really hadn't hurt his army enough.
Bare in mind i wasn't playing against DG and my list was TAC so the avenger gatling cannons are a competitive pick against most armies. This was probably the most effective thing in the army against Space Wolves, along with the Volkite.
I believe if you come up against a Knight Despoiler you'll probably be facing the avengers as in a Wardog heavy meta antitank is already largely taken care of. So you can to some extent ignore the despoiler and just take the hits, get your buffs up, get in cover and sit on the objectives
I see your point about the big melta weapons being scary, but the reality is they just don't have enough shots. Volcano Lance is only D6 shots. Yes it can reroll number of shots if you take Endless Torment but even a good roll is probably only killing one terminator.
We can stand up and fight Wardogs all day long. The Chaincleaver will probably kill a Deathshroud on the charge, the remaining 4 will likely kill it in return. Any kind of character support makes it not even a contest there. If we get to hit first with a Fleshmower it will probably bracket it. If the Wardog hits first it'll only take 2 wounds off the drone.
As for taking down the bigger Knights, we have loads of avenues for MWs - smites, the MW grenade, BioP, Volkite Contemptor MWs. A pair of Entropy cannon PBCs should land an Entropy per turn and a couple of Mortars for around 8w per turn. 6 Deathshroud can probably wreck one in one go with BioP and Arch Contaminator.
I am 100% confident that my current regular DG list would wipe the floor with the Chaos Knights list i ran the other night. Maybe in the hands of a better knight player they could make it work but I really don't think they would run away with it.
That is reassuring. I think I really need to just plan for it. As of right now, DG plays the primary so well and usually has such good secondary options that I feel leaning into planning for knights will help me in general. Thanks for the lengthy post!
Is a dreadnought list viable? I'm thinking 3 helbrutes, 3 contemptors. Or just 3 contemptors (their volkite culverins are so good its crazy), so I can still run terminators to get poxwalkers.
One idea 2 detachments
LOC runs a vanguard with
3 helbrutes (plasma cannon+fist)
3 Contemptors (volkites)
2 PBC MP has the patrol
2 x cultist
1 x poxwalker
tally & bight
min deathshrouds
1 PBC
Run it the same as any old list
While We Stand
Spread the Plague
Grind the down (probably)
This might be better in a purge list, but wanted to try deathguard first.
The Contemptor's value drops off heavily after the first. We've been testing them in several permutations, and one with Tallyman is excellent while each additional one is merely fine. If someone does bring anti-tank fire, they're just magnets for it.
Eldenfirefly wrote: A unit of MBH are not bad if you take Poxmonger plague company.
Tried that and it still didn’t work. MHB are just too fragile for their points and frankly they no longer hit hard enough either. They really took 3 nerfs with the book. Obviously going up 40 points is the biggest, as that hurts both their durability and damage output. But even beyond that the changes to DR is straight up horrible as well. People using melta against MHB is just so much worse than them using it against terminators. Finally poxmongers is just a bad plague company now, which at this point is just insult to injury.
Regarding morty it turns out warptime is still the key in making him competitive. I guess the more things change the more things stay the same. Thinking about running him with a heretic astartes patrol using Ahriman and some plague marines, but you could also use world bearers instead like the Original list.
I haven't tried MBH yet as I don't think they look good on paper but Don Hooson seems to swear by them. The -1 shots strat will certainly help their survivabilty.
We don't have an awful lot of anti-tank firepower in the army so I don't think they're a completely terrible option. Multi-Meltas are the big thing right now and MBH are our best means of taking them.
At 20pts more than a Helbrute with Missile Launcher and MM you lose core but gain 4" move, a 5++, the bile spurt and better melee. They are also -1 to hit in melee which keeps them a little safer when getting in close. I appreciate Helbrutes aren't exactly top drawer either.
For a similar loadout contemptor you pay 180pts +1CP. You get an extra missile and much better melee but less durability
It is, but is Core worth 40pts, a CP, no -1 to hit in melee and no access to the -1 shots strat on a unit of them? I'm not sure it is.
Regardless I think if you're taking a Contemptor you are better off with the volkite which makes it a very different unit with a very different purpose. If you think you need more anti-tank then take an MBH or two.
I think it's also worth taking into account, considering the margin of differences, you're comparing a model you can buy for £12 to a model that will cost you more like £70...
I think it's also worth taking into account, considering the margin of differences, you're comparing a model you can buy for £12 to a model that will cost you more like £70...
That is a very good point when considering FW. I used to love it once upon a time but I just can't justify the prices. I know I hamstring myself by excluding FW but in this day and age when we can see what plastic can do, I just don't want to deal with those prices... and resin.
I had originally planned on taking a plaugesurgon and tallyman in the list but left them at home so dropped them for the bloat Drone.
Having said that the list did phenomenal. Deathshroud/term sorc/lord of contagion deep struck for linebreaker (chrs ended up sitting back in the enemy deployment zone all game getting me vp as he didn't have anything to go deal with them once they were left alone), used the 5 man with blight launcher to pop strat to give blight haulers reroll 1's to hit (Sickly Corrosion) once and it didn't do anything because that was the time I rolled well lol (oh well, killed 3 bikes though), and pox walkers with mutant strain is the Bane of custodies! I ended up doing 12 mortal wounds (and losing q4 of my own guys) over the course of 2 fight phases vs custodies with it (the dead walk again is so good!).
I loved the mbh, those little plauge puppies were by far my mvp of the game. They killed 3 custodies with spears, 2 custodies bikers, traijan volaris, a terminator banner bearer, and held the middle objective by themselves while only losing 1. That strat to lower the number of shots against them is quite good! I definitely think they have a purpose in dg lists, they give some serious firepower and mobility to an army that desperately needs some fire support.
Sounds good. Custodes aren't great at the moment, we do what they do better, but they can still cause problems.
I haven't felt i needed the firepower from the MBHs, but then I seem to predominantly be coming up against elite infantry dominant armies (space marines basically).
If the meta shifts towards more vehicles then we might find they are essential.
Abaddon303 wrote: Sounds good. Custodes aren't great at the moment, we do what they do better, but they can still cause problems.
I haven't felt i needed the firepower from the MBHs, but then I seem to predominantly be coming up against elite infantry dominant armies (space marines basically).
If the meta shifts towards more vehicles then we might find they are essential.
Also, and this is a point I don't see enough people making, MBHs are ADORABLE. Cute little plague roombas, zooming around blowing up stuff.
It is, but is Core worth 40pts, a CP, no -1 to hit in melee and no access to the -1 shots strat on a unit of them? I'm not sure it is
no cost 150pts with twin volkites not much sense give missiles, and there is no way a hellbrute/MBH compete with it...i think some players, like in every edition, try relentelessy to make playable, models that are not, unless you play narrative or not competitive, in that case obviously you are right
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Azuza001 wrote: I played a game yesterday, dg vs custodies, and this was my list.
I had originally planned on taking a plaugesurgon and tallyman in the list but left them at home so dropped them for the bloat Drone.
Having said that the list did phenomenal. Deathshroud/term sorc/lord of contagion deep struck for linebreaker (chrs ended up sitting back in the enemy deployment zone all game getting me vp as he didn't have anything to go deal with them once they were left alone), used the 5 man with blight launcher to pop strat to give blight haulers reroll 1's to hit (Sickly Corrosion) once and it didn't do anything because that was the time I rolled well lol (oh well, killed 3 bikes though), and pox walkers with mutant strain is the Bane of custodies! I ended up doing 12 mortal wounds (and losing q4 of my own guys) over the course of 2 fight phases vs custodies with it (the dead walk again is so good!).
I loved the mbh, those little plauge puppies were by far my mvp of the game. They killed 3 custodies with spears, 2 custodies bikers, traijan volaris, a terminator banner bearer, and held the middle objective by themselves while only losing 1. That strat to lower the number of shots against them is quite good! I definitely think they have a purpose in dg lists, they give some serious firepower and mobility to an army that desperately needs some fire support.
I mean, we were discussing multimelta and anti-tank. I think it's established that volkite is the better option and I stated as much but that has a different role.
I think it's cute that a lot of players on Dakka like to talk like they're the only authority on what is competitive.
Don Hooson is currently running four MBHs in his list and sees them as one of the best things in the codex. I'm not sure I agree with him but to say they are unplayable is completely disingenuous.
If you have a plan for them, they appear to fill their role probably better than anything else in the codex...
Abaddon303 wrote: I mean, we were discussing multimelta and anti-tank. I think it's established that volkite is the better option and I stated as much but that has a different role.
I think it's cute that a lot of players on Dakka like to talk like they're the only authority on what is competitive.
Don Hooson is currently running four MBHs in his list and sees them as one of the best things in the codex. I'm not sure I agree with him but to say they are unplayable is completely disingenuous.
If you have a plan for them, they appear to fill their role probably better than anything else in the codex...
Exactly! This is tactics, not “this is the best unit, period.” Evaluating units in a vacuum has its merits but obviously doesn’t give the whole picture.
Speaking of the whole picture, if you had to make a list to reliably “Deploy Scramblers,” “While We Stand” and “Line Breaker,” what would the list look like? Which is the most helpful Plague Company? Is there a better set of secondaries that can reliably score points better regardless of what your opponent is doing? I’m worried that taking scramblers AND line breaker might incentivize the opponent screening their backfield all game but then again, they aren’t scoring their primary playing that game.
Abaddon303 wrote: I mean, we were discussing multimelta and anti-tank. I think it's established that volkite is the better option and I stated as much but that has a different role.
I think it's cute that a lot of players on Dakka like to talk like they're the only authority on what is competitive.
Don Hooson is currently running four MBHs in his list and sees them as one of the best things in the codex. I'm not sure I agree with him but to say they are unplayable is completely disingenuous.
If you have a plan for them, they appear to fill their role probably better than anything else in the codex...
Exactly! This is tactics, not “this is the best unit, period.” Evaluating units in a vacuum has its merits but obviously doesn’t give the whole picture.
Speaking of the whole picture, if you had to make a list to reliably “Deploy Scramblers,” “While We Stand” and “Line Breaker,” what would the list look like? Which is the most helpful Plague Company? Is there a better set of secondaries that can reliably score points better regardless of what your opponent is doing? I’m worried that taking scramblers AND line breaker might incentivize the opponent screening their backfield all game but then again, they aren’t scoring their primary playing that game.
While taking secondaries that are somewhat uninteractive (is that a word?) with your opponent is really strong, I'm not sure we are the best army to take advantage of things like deploy scramblers or linebreaker.
I tend to avoid any secondaries that involve actions. We are a pretty elite army that can't really afford to have a unit do nothing while carrying out an action. We also don't have mobile infantry and our units with built in deepstrike are expensive. Deploy scramblers is great if you have a cheap unit you can drop into your opponents DZ. I guess you could pay the CP to reserve small units of cultists?
WWSWF is great on a couple of big units of terminators
Well then with that information, which secondaries are best to take if you’re looking to play that “I don’t care what my opponent is doing, I’m scoring all these points” and which army would correspond to that?
I hear that about scramblers, I want my death shroud to flame something and maybe make a 9inch charge. Is line breaker good though? Turn 2 deep striking a 5 man blightlord squad with a character could threaten max points on that secondary while still shooting and threatening your opponents objective, with a strong counter charge element in the character.
I come back to spread the sickness instead of scramblers. Poxwalkers covering the objectives in your deployment zone and just outside of it seems like a 9point slam dunk and possibly more.
Spread the sickness is okay. The issue is the 4 GT missions that have 5 or less objectives means you're probably only getting 6 points.
I haven't tried taking linebreaker and just dropping a lump of terminators in, that could work. I tend to want to bung up the centre with my terminators but I guess if you're confident of taking your opponents home objective that could work.
The DG codex is great and I think we have a very powerful army but we do seem to lack nailed on secondary options.
broxus wrote: Yea secondaries are not good for DG. Very hard to make them work many times due to lack of speed and so many elite troops.
I am really enjoying the Blightlords right now. In a 10-man unit their melee and shooting phases are deadly with the right strategems.
I do think it depends sometimes on the terrain and list we are facing. Sometimes, in hindsight. I think I should seriously consider deep striking my deathshroud as a tactical option instead of only marching them up the board, and take secondaries accordingly that reflect that. Some army lists protect their back objectives with such squishy troops that they literally can't do anything against something so resilient as a 3 man unit of deathshroud dropping into the back lines.
And while its true they might be able to screen, not all armies can screen that well. Some throw so many units into the midfield that its still hard for them to do a 180 and run back into their own deployment zone.
Also, if you are running a big unit of 10 blightlords, while we stand we fight is worth considering. a big 10 man blightlord unit is hard to kill. And if he reduces that unit down to 2 or 3 models, you can always hide them from shooting to preserve that 5 points of while we stand. This applies to PBC too. So, if your WWSWF is 2 PBC and a big blightlord unit, you can use them until they are severely depleted and then hide them the rest of the game. PBCs can shoot out of line of sight so they are great even if hidden behind obscuring terrain. All 3 are extremely though.
Forcing the opponent to spend a lot of resources attacking these 3 units, and then last minute running them to hide behind some obscuring piece of terrain when they are depleted sounds pretty evil. hehe. Because I know some players might choose to ignore something like a PBC, or a 10 man blightlord unit. So, making these 3 your WWSWF secondary forces your player to make hard decisions. Does he give you that 15 points without even trying, or does he spend a Ton of resources firing at them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW, this is more dependent on what are the army lists you face in your own local meta. But I was thinking a chaos knight shooty Tyrant with those volcano cannon actually makes for a pretty good mix with a DG list. DG wants to stick to just the midfield and our own deplyment zone. a volcano lance tyrant is so long range it can easily stay in our own deployment zone. And just one such Tyrant will provide all the long range shooting we need.
A lot of armies are relying on melta and multi melta for shooting these days. DG has the resilience and bodies (pox walkers) to be able to form a slowly expanding buffer zone outwards from our deployment field while keeping those pesky meltas and multi meltas far away from our backline where that volcano lance tyrant is. 5 rounds of a Tyrant firing every round is going to hurt big time. lol. It just seems like DG and chaos knights have a lot to contribute to each other. Match made in hell?
Brymm wrote: I come back to spread the sickness instead of scramblers. Poxwalkers covering the objectives in your deployment zone and just outside of it seems like a 9point slam dunk and possibly more.
For me it's spread the sickness all the way now. I'd rather have 20 pox walkers sitting on a rear objecives than plague marines which never have anything in 24" range. I often have a virion character perform spread the sickness, because I rarely care whether they take mortal wounds or not. The surgeon can even heal himself when he does.
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Eldenfirefly wrote: Also, if you are running a big unit of 10 blightlords, while we stand we fight is worth considering. a big 10 man blightlord unit is hard to kill. And if he reduces that unit down to 2 or 3 models, you can always hide them from shooting to preserve that 5 points of while we stand. This applies to PBC too. So, if your WWSWF is 2 PBC and a big blightlord unit, you can use them until they are severely depleted and then hide them the rest of the game. PBCs can shoot out of line of sight so they are great even if hidden behind obscuring terrain. All 3 are extremely though.
Forcing the opponent to spend a lot of resources attacking these 3 units, and then last minute running them to hide behind some obscuring piece of terrain when they are depleted sounds pretty evil. hehe. Because I know some players might choose to ignore something like a PBC, or a 10 man blightlord unit. So, making these 3 your WWSWF secondary forces your player to make hard decisions. Does he give you that 15 points without even trying, or does he spend a Ton of resources firing at them.
In my games so far, PBC weren't good units for WWSWF at all, if an opponent wants one dead he rarely has any trouble one-rounding them. Essentially they are just slightly more durable LRBT now.
Wwswf seems like a good one for us if you build the list around it. I took that secondary and was planning on getting 10vp from it, got the full 15 when the srg of the 10 man plauge squad survived t5 with 1w left. 420 pts for a single squad is nuts but mbh are not going down easy, especially if you keep the cp in the back pocket for reduce shots by 1.
Linebreaker/engage on all fronts comes down to your opponents army, again with a speedy and durable squad like mbh you should be able to get into 3 table quarters by t2, and a deep stike element like 5 deathshroud can do that as well. I don't think my sorcerer was needed how I ran it, a deamon prince with the mbh's would have been a better option but at 1500 I was slightly limited. But a lord of contagion with them thats 2 units for linebreaker if your opponents army allows it, or 2 for engage. Also 250pts on the deathshroud gives you another unit for wwswf that can hide for a turn or 2 until they are garunteed safe.
For the 3rd secondary I think it comes down to what's going on. You could try and tech towards spread the sickness but honestly that doesn't interest me that much. I would pick it over raise the banners though. Mental interrogation is interesting but the dp is really the only unit I could see being free once in a while to do it and he has better stuff to be doing.
Domination is also a valid option, as well as grind them down. But all of these depend on your opponent and the mission which is fine, I like being able to get flexible with it.
Do I think dg are an army that could convince of getting the golden 100pt perfect game reliably? No way. But if I get more than 7 pts per secondary in a game and max out primary I think they are doing just fine.
Brymm wrote: I come back to spread the sickness instead of scramblers. Poxwalkers covering the objectives in your deployment zone and just outside of it seems like a 9point slam dunk and possibly more.
For me it's spread the sickness all the way now. I'd rather have 20 pox walkers sitting on a rear objecives than plague marines which never have anything in 24" range.
I often have a virion character perform spread the sickness, because I rarely care whether they take mortal wounds or not. The surgeon can even heal himself when he does.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote: Also, if you are running a big unit of 10 blightlords, while we stand we fight is worth considering. a big 10 man blightlord unit is hard to kill. And if he reduces that unit down to 2 or 3 models, you can always hide them from shooting to preserve that 5 points of while we stand. This applies to PBC too. So, if your WWSWF is 2 PBC and a big blightlord unit, you can use them until they are severely depleted and then hide them the rest of the game. PBCs can shoot out of line of sight so they are great even if hidden behind obscuring terrain. All 3 are extremely though.
Forcing the opponent to spend a lot of resources attacking these 3 units, and then last minute running them to hide behind some obscuring piece of terrain when they are depleted sounds pretty evil. hehe. Because I know some players might choose to ignore something like a PBC, or a 10 man blightlord unit. So, making these 3 your WWSWF secondary forces your player to make hard decisions. Does he give you that 15 points without even trying, or does he spend a Ton of resources firing at them.
In my games so far, PBC weren't good units for WWSWF at all, if an opponent wants one dead he rarely has any trouble one-rounding them. Essentially they are just slightly more durable LRBT now.
If opponent shooting is so deadly, then keep them behind obscuring. I would like to know what kind of out of line of sight ranged weapon he is using that can one round a PBC who is behind obscuring. Just shoot the entropy cannons at extreme angles cross table at enemy units at the midboard, or not at all. The 5 VP is worth more than sacrificing your PBC just to get 2 entropy cannon shots off that might not even hit. You can still do damage with your mortar. Again, this is assuming your opponent shooting is so deadly. In the meta of multi meltas now, I think its possible to keep out of range and use your forward advancing DG units to screen them out. The targets you want to shoot won't be ideal, but who cares. those WWSWF vp are more important!
If he wants to advance his attack bikes all the way till they are like within 6 inches of your deployment zone just to try and pop of some extreme angle multimelta shots at your well hidden behind obscuring PBC, then those attack bikes will be dead next turn as well. Eradicators can be screened out from your PBCs (and they need line of sight anyway).
Don't play fair with PBCs. Its not about bringing all of your firepower to bear. Its about how can you win a shootout over 5 rounds by playing cagey. Lets say you are facing 3 squads of Eradicators. Hide behind obscuring and keep lobing 3d6 shots of mortar shells at them for 5 turns. You wont kill them on round 1, but how many will be left by round 5? If he gets impatient and pop his squads out to hit other targets, thats when you can pop out after that and concentrate all firepower on him in his exposed position now.
If you are facing a imperial guard gunline. Then again hide behind obscuring from his tank commanders while moving the rest of your army forward. Guardsmen cannot stand up against DG terminators and PM. Shoot at his basilisks with your mortars. 3 basilisks vs 3 PBC. I would say the PBCs should come out ahead even if its purely mortars against basilisk artillery shots. 3d6 mortar shots per turn should have a good chance of killing or at least severely damaging 1 Basilisk per round. Wait until he gets impatient or desperate and exposes his tank commander. Thats when you can concentrate your entropy cannon fire on the tank commander to try and kill it.
Its the same for anything deadly. Hide from it, until it exposes itself. Then concentrate fire on it and kill/maim it. If you go first, don't get aggressive. Continue to hide and shoot your mortars if the deadly shooty hasn't poked its head out. Play the long game.
Eldenfirefly wrote: If opponent shooting is so deadly, then keep them behind obscuring. I would like to know what kind of out of line of sight ranged weapon he is using that can one round a PBC who is behind obscuring. Just shoot the entropy cannons at extreme angles cross table at enemy units at the midboard, or not at all. The 5 VP is worth more than sacrificing your PBC just to get 2 entropy cannon shots off that might not even hit. You can still do damage with your mortar. Again, this is assuming your opponent shooting is so deadly. In the meta of multi meltas now, I think its possible to keep out of range and use your forward advancing DG units to screen them out. The targets you want to shoot won't be ideal, but who cares. those WWSWF vp are more important!
Things that tend to kill my PBCs are usually either highly mobile like planes, fast vehicles with FLY or bikes which can line up shots even if I hid, or fast melee units. I have found that WWSWF works much better with terminator squads or a large plague marine squad as my most expensive units, as there is no "cheat" to kill them quickly, while PBC, daemon princes or Mortarion can tend to reward 0 VP. In addition, this allows me to freely use entropy cannons and the rothail volley gun to reduce my opponent's ability to respond to my terminators.
If he wants to advance his attack bikes all the way till they are like within 6 inches of your deployment zone just to try and pop of some extreme angle multimelta shots at your well hidden behind obscuring PBC, then those attack bikes will be dead next turn as well. Eradicators can be screened out from your PBCs (and they need line of sight anyway).
Don't play fair with PBCs. Its not about bringing all of your firepower to bear. Its about how can you win a shootout over 5 rounds by playing cagey. Lets say you are facing 3 squads of Eradicators. Hide behind obscuring and keep lobing 3d6 shots of mortar shells at them for 5 turns. You wont kill them on round 1, but how many will be left by round 5? If he gets impatient and pop his squads out to hit other targets, thats when you can pop out after that and concentrate all firepower on him in his exposed position now.
More than half of my games aren't against vanilla marines, and if they are, I'm not particularly worried about beating them. I rarely face three squads of eradicators since such a lists pretty much an auto-lose if they face an ork, necron or slanesh horde, all regular participants in our games.
Its the same for anything deadly. Hide from it, until it exposes itself. Then concentrate fire on it and kill/maim it. If you go first, don't get aggressive. Continue to hide and shoot your mortars if the deadly shooty hasn't poked its head out. Play the long game.
True, but our boards don't allow for more than one or two units of the size of a PBC to hide from everything all game. We have found such "no LoS anywhere" boards skew the game too much in favor of elite melee units, while more balanced boards eliminate many of the balance issues people have when facing marines. I think this is the main reason why we have different views on this.
I'm not sure I can agree on hiding PBCs. The mortar alone is just not effective enough for a 175pt model regardless of whether it nets 5VP. Rolling average dice you won't kill a single eradicator per turn.
If i take WWSWF it's normally on two big units of terminators and a PBC and i figure i'll probably lose one of those. 10pts is fine for a secondary. Hiding the PBC means focus isn't taken off my terminators.
If my oponent wants to deny me 5VP and goes after my PBC, it probably means my two terminators are getting an easier time. If they are not getting whittled away right from the start then I'm probably going to win the game on primary anyway.
Agreed on terrain, we play on a board with usually 4 huge 10x10 tall buildings in each quarter with a smaller obscuring piece in the middle, along with patches of area terrain and hills. Even with multiple big chunky things to hide behind, I can only hide 2 PBCs for really one or two turns before something gets an angle, but then it’s usually not enough to one shot one.
I’ve comically tried to hide most of my army turn 1 against an admech list behind two of those two big LOS blockers, and while i stopped the disintegrators from killing me turn 1, I was so hamstrung by being out of position, I got whalloped on primaries.
i guess DG need to splash some heretic astartes in their lists, a WB sorcerer and you are not that slow again, access to death hex kill some list itself.
I wouldn't necessarily say we are completely hamstrung by our speed. Our infantry is slow, but with mediocre or no firepower i never feel like I'm missing out on much by advancing a lot of my army first turn. And then we have drones, MBH, GBD all are crazy quick compared to a dreadnought etc. The core of our resilient infantry is no slower than loyalist terminators or gravis etc.
I honestly don't think there is a situation where souping in CSM is worthwhile. Not just because you lose contagions but also the CP tax. CSM are not in a great place either so outside of a sorcerer there's not much else I'd want to bring along.
That might change when they get their new codex but I've pretty much given up on CSM for now as they are just utterly outclassed right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually CSM terminators are decent value at the moment but DG terms are just better
csm is used only for WB sorcerer, have you idea how much death hex/warptime impact? I gladly lost -1T contagion and DG secondaries to have utility spells like that. Last but no least the chaos familiar stratagem...
Throw Morty against things like bladeguards or custodes with otìr without Inv save...is a game changer.
blackmage wrote: WB is better because of stratagem, if you fail a critical power you can let it goes off, anyway Ts are fine too.
The strategem is the big reason to take the sorcerer I agree, that + being 35 points cheapner, and jetpack. However, you also are losing an extra cast, the extra range on spells (good for warptime and deathhex) and most importantly
+ 1 to deny and 2 extra denies. Good when handling stuff like dark angle, tyranid, and mirror matchup powers. Also you will have to spend 1 CP to get the WB relic for your guy and while the stratagem is amazing, it will cost you CP as well. It still might be worth it to play the WB sorcerer over Ahriman, but I don’t think it’s a clear cut answer.
blackmage wrote: csm is used only for WB sorcerer, have you idea how much death hex/warptime impact? I gladly lost -1T contagion and DG secondaries to have utility spells like that. Last but no least the chaos familiar stratagem...
Throw Morty against things like bladeguards or custodes with otìr without Inv save...is a game changer.
Yea the biggest issue is getting around the transhuman. Morty struggles to kill anything with that. On average (if they have an invulnerable) Mortarian only kills 1-2 a turn.
blackmage wrote: WB is better because of stratagem, if you fail a critical power you can let it goes off, anyway Ts are fine too.
The strategem is the big reason to take the sorcerer I agree, that + being 35 points cheapner, and jetpack. However, you also are losing an extra cast, the extra range on spells (good for warptime and deathhex) and most importantly
+ 1 to deny and 2 extra denies. Good when handling stuff like dark angle, tyranid, and mirror matchup powers. Also you will have to spend 1 CP to get the WB relic for your guy and while the stratagem is amazing, it will cost you CP as well. It still might be worth it to play the WB sorcerer over Ahriman, but I don’t think it’s a clear cut answer.
is not like that list play... you dont need anytime warptime/deahex on sorcerer, if you have Morty you use chaos familiar if needed, you dont need the relic really. Arhiman is great but if he fails, he fails period and happen more often than you can ever believe, you have 3 deny with Mortarion+couple more with malignant and WB sorcerer, is usually enough. Anway both are good choices, without morty anyway warptime a block or blightlords/deatshouds/FBD, prescience on a PBC, still can be game changing, death hex on a large block of DA termies can change outcome of a game anyway.
tried list with and without heretic astartes psy powers and anytime i feel i prefer spend 2 extra CP for HA detachement.
Stoni42 wrote: Ok, for all you guys who played games yet: what are your most used stratagems (besides the pre-game ones)?
For me it's Haze of Corruption, Mutant Strain and Disgusting Force. There are quite a few which I use should the occasion arise, but these three I use multiple times every game.
having now a PBC that hit on 2+ (prescience) disgusting force is more appealing, pity that usually i roll 1 or 2 for number of hits, when i use the stratagem
And for some surprise damage with my BL stolen bolters-
Eternal Hatred (+1 to wound)
Virulent Rounds (plague weapons)
Virmed Whispers (+1 to hit)
Use those 3 strategems after you get a bloat drone near a unit the inexorable contagion, have your tallyman/lord nearby with his exploding 6s aura and within 12” arch-contaminator. Needless to say you can bring down a leviathan in one turn, but it costs 4-6 CP.
32 shots, Hitting on 2, rerolling 1s, exploding 6s, wounding everything on a 4+ (Or better), rerolling all failed wounds, at -1 AP kills pretty much everything.
It’s nice telling someone they have to make 30-35 saves on a unity’s bolter shots.
blackmage wrote: having now a PBC that hit on 2+ (prescience) disgusting force is more appealing, pity that usually i roll 1 or 2 for number of hits, when i use the stratagem
It's just 1 CP so I just use it by default whenever I'm shooting 3W models or vehicles/monsters. It doesn't always pay off, but it makes a huge difference when it does.
I’ve found that a lot of deathguard stratagems to be situationally powerful. Fortunately, most games will have several instances where many are good. Unfortunately, this means that you will have to know a good chunk of our 28 (+ plague company specific and soup) stratagems. When starting I’d focus on learning how to use flash outbreak, enteral hatred, the 2 terminator specific ones, and the poxwalker specific stratagems. These will be your generally useful ones that you will use most games.
Also I have to agree with black mage that in a competitive sense running a world bearers psyker makes more sense then Ahriman. Having that extra consistency is very helpful.
Wow, I am enjoying Deathguard. Played against an Imperium player running White Scars + IG. We both had fun. But wow, DG are resilient! There wasn't enough terrain in our deployment zone to hide the entire army. I did the best I could. Was getting hit by vengence of Cadia strategem every turn. But despite that, it was an epic bloodbath for both sides.
By end of turn 3, I had lost two 3 man spawns units, two of my 3 man deathshrouds, and a 10 man poxwalker unit (all mostly killed by shooting). But he had lost 3 characters, 2 outrider units, 2 assault intercessor units, an assault centurion unit, and all of his IG infantry. He was down to his 2 Manticores, 2 Tank commanders and 2 IG characters. It was brutal. We talked it through cos we were out of time, but we agreed he would have lost. He had too few assets left and there were six objectives on the board, of which I was in a position to sit on as many as four. It was still extremely fun though. Have to give MVP to the Pox walkers though. People always under estimated what a mere T4 unit can do. But then they fail to kill the whole unit, and its fearless, and you then bring back a whole bunch in your command phase with that strategem and that wastes all the effort they did to bring down the numbers of pox walkers. That mutated strain strategem is also extremely good on a big 20 man pox walker unit.
Also, a ten man blightlord unit can pump out a surprisingly good amount of damage from just bolter and reaper autocannon shooting alone if supported by a Tallyman and a Lord. And they are so hard to shift.
Also, coming into melee range of a DG army is just rough. Contagion gift of nurgle will bring your toughness down by 1, and then you get mortal wounds being thrown at you by curse of the leper and other sources. And then you fight last, and finally DG terminators, Chaos Spawn, and heck even out pox walkers can do the work in close combat. I think my opponent's strategy was to throw the white scars forward to buy time for his IG shooting to do its work. But the white Scars component of his army just got killed so quickly once they got into melee range.
Speaking of useful stratagems, has anyone found any success with the orbital bombardment one? I've tried it twice so far and found it pretty underwhelming for 3CP. I also have a question regarding the Tallyman. I know his old ability was not capped by the "gain 1CP per batlle round" rule but is the new ability capped by it or not? The way I read it it's not but that also seems stupidly powerful especially if I were to include 2 tallyman in bigger games. Edit: Good to hear you are also having fun with the new book Eldenfirefly, sounds like it was an interesting game. Must have been rough I imagine because Vengeance for Cadia is absolutely busted as a strat. I personally can't wait to see it go away once IG get their new codex.
Right, you CAN, but that only matters if you fail to roll a 7+ In your own command phase, you get a second chance in theirs. The average command point refund for Tallyman is around 4 per game at basically a 75% per battle round.
Tallymans rule of generating a command point per command phase doesn’t overrule the big rule book limit of one per battle round. He’s busted because you get two tries instead of one.
Exactly. no different to something like UM's 'Adept of the Codex' where you can have multiple attempts at a 5+ per turn but only get to regain one CP per round.
blackmage wrote: WB is better because of stratagem, if you fail a critical power you can let it goes off, anyway Ts are fine too.
The strategem is the big reason to take the sorcerer I agree, that + being 35 points cheapner, and jetpack. However, you also are losing an extra cast, the extra range on spells (good for warptime and deathhex) and most importantly
+ 1 to deny and 2 extra denies. Good when handling stuff like dark angle, tyranid, and mirror matchup powers. Also you will have to spend 1 CP to get the WB relic for your guy and while the stratagem is amazing, it will cost you CP as well. It still might be worth it to play the WB sorcerer over Ahriman, but I don’t think it’s a clear cut answer.
is not like that list play... you dont need anytime warptime/deahex on sorcerer, if you have Morty you use chaos familiar if needed, you dont need the relic really. Arhiman is great but if he fails, he fails period and happen more often than you can ever believe, you have 3 deny with Mortarion+couple more with malignant and WB sorcerer, is usually enough. Anway both are good choices, without morty anyway warptime a block or blightlords/deatshouds/FBD, prescience on a PBC, still can be game changing, death hex on a large block of DA termies can change outcome of a game anyway.
tried list with and without heretic astartes psy powers and anytime i feel i prefer spend 2 extra CP for HA detachement.
Rules question...
Is it really kosher to use the CSM stratagem Chaos Familiar on Morty? And to unlock that is to have a CSM detachment??
I thought all stratagems was locked into detachments only...
Jidmah wrote: Only chaos daemons are. CSM stratagems can be used on any model with the correct keywords.
I wouldn't spend too much money on CSM models right now though, it's pretty much guaranteed that this synergy will go away.
Thanks.
My current list is CSM detachment, Demon detachment and Morty. I knew demon stratagems was locked out, hence why I brought in a CSMDP just to have access to DeathHex and warptime. Deathhex solves many of Morty's issues against high inv units.
Looking back at my previous games, Morty being able to use chaos familiar would've been really effective.
Also, I think you're right that by the next codex, CSM's stratagems would be locked out, ala the Demon ones.
So looking at the new Typhus army list im thinking it could be interesting. No vehicles but new relics,powers and strategems depending on how good these turn out to be it could be a good swap. Being able to deep strike marines,possessed and chatacters into close range for free is isane. The strat that they show is rediculously good 2cp to be able to fire into combat could do some serious damage the poxwalkers tarpit an enemy that they cant harm but can tie up and then you just shoot into the combat to kill the enemy. You can even avoid the downside by just using flamer type guns.
Lungrot the power is so powerful it will pretty much shut down a units ability to charge for a turn, if the other powers are this good then it could be worth losing vehicles just for them.
That relic wtf a simple chaos lord would be making 5 s12 attacks a turn this is going to chew through anything.
darthryan wrote: So looking at the new Typhus army list im thinking it could be interesting. No vehicles but new relics,powers and strategems depending on how good these turn out to be it could be a good swap. Being able to deep strike marines,possessed and chatacters into close range for free is isane. The strat that they show is rediculously good 2cp to be able to fire into combat could do some serious damage the poxwalkers tarpit an enemy that they cant harm but can tie up and then you just shoot into the combat to kill the enemy. You can even avoid the downside by just using flamer type guns.
Lungrot the power is so powerful it will pretty much shut down a units ability to charge for a turn, if the other powers are this good then it could be worth losing vehicles just for them.
That relic wtf a simple chaos lord would be making 5 s12 attacks a turn this is going to chew through anything.
darthryan wrote: So looking at the new Typhus army list im thinking it could be interesting. No vehicles but new relics,powers and strategems depending on how good these turn out to be it could be a good swap. Being able to deep strike marines,possessed and chatacters into close range for free is isane. The strat that they show is rediculously good 2cp to be able to fire into combat could do some serious damage the poxwalkers tarpit an enemy that they cant harm but can tie up and then you just shoot into the combat to kill the enemy. You can even avoid the downside by just using flamer type guns.
Lungrot the power is so powerful it will pretty much shut down a units ability to charge for a turn, if the other powers are this good then it could be worth losing vehicles just for them.
That relic wtf a simple chaos lord would be making 5 s12 attacks a turn this is going to chew through anything.
What does "anything" mean? Does it include Death Guard stuff? On average it cannot kill 1 single DG terminator in a turn.
darthryan wrote: So looking at the new Typhus army list im thinking it could be interesting. No vehicles but new relics,powers and strategems depending on how good these turn out to be it could be a good swap. Being able to deep strike marines,possessed and chatacters into close range for free is isane. The strat that they show is rediculously good 2cp to be able to fire into combat could do some serious damage the poxwalkers tarpit an enemy that they cant harm but can tie up and then you just shoot into the combat to kill the enemy. You can even avoid the downside by just using flamer type guns.
Lungrot the power is so powerful it will pretty much shut down a units ability to charge for a turn, if the other powers are this good then it could be worth losing vehicles just for them.
That relic wtf a simple chaos lord would be making 5 s12 attacks a turn this is going to chew through anything.
It isn't quite exactly deep striking in marines, possessed and characters into close range for free... Firstly, to place them into strategic reserve, you have to pay CP for that. So, it isn't free like terminators going into deep strike. The more stuff you place into strategic reserve, the more CP you have to pay. Also, you still set up over 9 inches away. And even with rerolls, making a 9 inch charge is iffy most of the time.
Honestly, if its just for this "outbreak Assault" ability, not sure its worth losing all vehicles. Because DG can already deep strike in terminators at over 9 inches. And I think terminators are usually better to be deep struck in as compared to PM. Have to see all of the relics and strategems though.
the only real deal i see is, give more mobility to an army that usually is quite slow, drop 2x10 PM or 10BL at 9" mean you can drop them around the table, over obj , turn1,you are at rapid fire range anytime you need, is not just about charge.
Anyway not sure if really worth, until i see the whole picture.
Blightlord Terminators can already deep strike. Not that you generally want them to. The benefit is purely for Foetid Virions, Plaguecasters, Daemon Princes, Possessed, and Plague Marines.
Well if we get rules that make running a purely infantry army worth it I'd be very happy. But the strats, relics and psychic powers have to very good before I'd consider giving up our vehicles. We rely on those for long ranged support I don't see deepstriking PM solve our issues at tackling enemy armour at range.
MinMax wrote: Blightlord Terminators can already deep strike. Not that you generally want them to. The benefit is purely for Foetid Virions, Plaguecasters, Daemon Princes, Possessed, and Plague Marines.
And Mortarion, cheekily.
termy can DS start from 2nd turn only, not at 1st, is a big difference, not counting you can DS things like a spawn or a biologus with them for example.
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Castozor wrote: Well if we get rules that make running a purely infantry army worth it I'd be very happy. But the strats, relics and psychic powers have to very good before I'd consider giving up our vehicles. We rely on those for long ranged support I don't see deepstriking PM solve our issues at tackling enemy armour at range.
you would be surprised how much damage 10 plagues/BL can do, if properly supported, to veichles (+1 to hit exploding 6's, +1 to wound and virulent rounds with archcontaminator), try and see.
I doubt this will be disregarding the turn one restriction on deepstrike so it's doing nothing for terminators. I prefer starting stuff on the board in 9th so i can't see me using any of this.
preview rules are very underwhelming tbh, shooting into zombie melee is cool but at -1 and misses killing your own guys i'll pass for 2cp.
Fist seems decent, you'll be wounding on 2s most the time and rerolling 1s and no -1 to hit. Not sure there's anything i'd want to be taking with a fist though, I'd put it on a PM champ but i doubt that'll be allowed.
Abaddon303 wrote: I doubt this will be disregarding the turn one restriction on deepstrike so it's doing nothing for terminators. I prefer starting stuff on the board in 9th so i can't see me using any of this.
preview rules are very underwhelming tbh, shooting into zombie melee is cool but at -1 and misses killing your own guys i'll pass for 2cp.
Fist seems decent, you'll be wounding on 2s most the time and rerolling 1s and no -1 to hit. Not sure there's anything i'd want to be taking with a fist though, I'd put it on a PM champ but i doubt that'll be allowed.
You are probably right that it won't be allowed turn 1, BUT there is a precedent for it. SMs can drop pod in turn 1. When you take into account the amount of restrictions I don't think allowing it turn 1 is actually that big a deal.
Edit: Ignore me. Strategic reserves is always turn 2 onwards so no reason to think this will be any different.
MinMax wrote: Blightlord Terminators can already deep strike. Not that you generally want them to. The benefit is purely for Foetid Virions, Plaguecasters, Daemon Princes, Possessed, and Plague Marines.
And Mortarion, cheekily.
termy can DS start from 2nd turn only, not at 1st, is a big difference, not counting you can DS things like a spawn or a biologus with them for example.
You can't arrive from turn one using Strategic Reserves. So, not relevant. Chaos Spawn are not Bubonic Astartes.
under outbreak assault description nothing is said you cant turn1, you dont follow what core rule book says...so lets see the full rules then we can see if worth or not.
Of course i was talking about blightspawn
Drop Pods use the following wording:
"This transport can be set up in the Reinforcements step of your first, second or third Movement phase, regardless of any mission rules."
Outbreak Assault does not. You cannot use Outbreak Assault to set models up during the first battle round.
It says one of your movement phases not any movement phase after the first. It also says instead of using the rules in the core rule book so it sounds to me like you can set up turn one
I don’t think you’ll find an opponent that will let you set up your guys turn 1 using that rule. The drop pod example is extremely relevant as it specifically allows it. This rule as written, doesn’t. It even refers to the strategic reserve rule.
That said, getting to deep strike in an elite non-terminator model in with your Deathshroud is awesome!
darthryan wrote: It says one of your movement phases not any movement phase after the first. It also says instead of using the rules in the core rule book so it sounds to me like you can set up turn one
Teleport Strike uses the same wording, so even by that (incorrect) logic our Terminators would still gain no benefit.
MinMax wrote: Drop Pods use the following wording:
"This transport can be set up in the Reinforcements step of your first, second or third Movement phase, regardless of any mission rules."
Outbreak Assault does not. You cannot use Outbreak Assault to set models up during the first battle round.
I wont spend a cent about that anyway we will see
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Jidmah wrote: Except the rule saying that you cannot deploy any strategic reserves is not in the core rulebook, but in the mission pack.
Anyone else a little disappointed the -1 Damage rule is seemingly being spread to everyone in some capacity? All space marine dreads and the new admech rules mean that there are now at least 2 other armies that can have the majority of their list at -1 damage. Even necrons and sisters have -1 damage abilities, and Im sure more will come with new codexs.
It makes the DG rule feel a little less death guard-ey to me, when everyone else can get it to.
And sheesh look at the power difference between the admech detachment and the DG. Again, we will have to wait to see full picture but yea pretty underwhelming currently.
Although deepstriking mortarion and a CSM wordbearers sorcerer with warptime means an unpreventable turn 2 charge right? Pretty much anywhere into the opponents army? Thats pretty juicy.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Anyone else a little disappointed the -1 Damage rule is seemingly being spread to everyone in some capacity? All space marine dreads and the new admech rules mean that there are now at least 2 other armies that can have the majority of their list at -1 damage. Even necrons and sisters have -1 damage abilities, and Im sure more will come with new codexs.
Although deepstriking mortarion and a CSM wordbearers sorcerer with warptime means an unpreventable turn 2 charge right? Pretty much anywhere into the opponents army? Thats pretty juicy.
I'm more annoyed at our complete lack of extra defensive options bar 2 Stratagems for our army. Seem silly we have nothing to boost the durability of our normal units.
Also I don't think you can combo a CSM sorcerer with a Deepstriking Morty since the Renown stuff requires your entire army to be DG.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Anyone else a little disappointed the -1 Damage rule is seemingly being spread to everyone in some capacity? All space marine dreads and the new admech rules mean that there are now at least 2 other armies that can have the majority of their list at -1 damage. Even necrons and sisters have -1 damage abilities, and Im sure more will come with new codexs.
GW needs to find a way to make things durable with the overpowered shooting that we see nowadays. This looks like the way to do it. Plus DG, have T5 infantry, and contagions and their own vehicles that makes them unique, so -1 dmg isn't truly needed to make them unique.
I think dreadnaughts needed the -1 damage. Without that, they are just too squishy. I still find Deathguard extremely fluffy.
The great thing I am enjoying about deathguard right now, is that it really plays like a proper fluffy deathguard army the way I imagined it to be.
My DG army is a slow army moving up the board, with PBC booming their dreaded mortars from the back. I have pox walkers spreading disease, and the steel core of terminators marching up ready to stomp over anyone who dares to get into melee. All my units have this contagion that weakens my opponent and it gets more powerful (the range) as the battle continues. The nearer you get to my army, the more damage gets dealt out to you, as mortal wounds, psychic, and flamers all start to find their range. And few units can handle being stuck in melee with deathguard for long. Even my units die, they can blow up horribly and take you with me.
And despite being slow and not that shooty, the other strengths of DG allow me to have a good game. I now doubt if I can be tabled if I played with half a brain and no matter what, I will give my opponent a challenging game. And my army will do that while remaining totally fluffy to how deathguard should be.
So, on the whole, Pretty happy with DG.
BTW, I rate chaos spawn pretty highly. They are fast, so with an advance roll, they are usually able to either get onto, or threaten objectives very quickly. And because they are the closest to the midboard objectives usually, they will usually attract a lot of incoming fire. They are tanky (T6, DR, 4W each) enough to absorb a lot of that firepower, and yet, they are cheap so that even if I lose them, I got a lot more of my army to play with. A unit of 3 spawn are only 69 points. I can get 2 units of 3 chaos spawn for the price of 1 bloat drone, and they are more than twice as many wounds to shoot through. The only thing I need to use is CP to make them T6 and DR, and that's fine because I consider it CP well spent.
Some players say they are "easy" kills, but they don't realise that by the time they have pumped enough firepower into a unit of spawn to kill it, they likely won't have enough firepower left to shoot much of anything else.
Looking for advice against Space wolves. I'm constantly getting thrashed by them and it feels like they have superior speed to quickly grab objectives, enough shooting to hang back and more than enough melee punch to contest objectives against DG in close quarters.
I've found the following elements to be most troublesome:
Central objective dreadnoughts with melee character support. One shield dreadnought and company veterans protect Bjorn and bunch of melee characters in the middle. Playing with Look out sir,bodyguard and los blocking terrain it's pretty easy to render all anti tank shooting against them ineffective. It's completely suicide to charge them with 6" heroic intervention, murderous hurricane and fight last ability from the Judiciar.
Flanks rolled with bikers, jump pack wolfguard and thunderwolves supported with troop choices for screen clearing. No amount of screening will protect against the speed and anti infantry fire from them. I feel like I don't have enough units to block the flanks. Everyone is carrying storm shields and fists so even a Defiler is wiped out in single attack with all the exploding dice and extra attacks and auto-wounds from the stratagems and chapter tactics. If I commit terminators or plague marines to one flank the fast units can easily switch sides while I'm stuck there all game. And every unit is needed in the middle to even stand a chance contesting the central objective.
We play 2000 point games and I usually run mixture of these units:
Lord of contagion+Plaguecaster or Daemon prince
Putrifier with ArchCo
Blightspawn with Vats
Tallyman with Tollkeeper
Helbrute x2
5 Blightlords
3 Deathshroud
10 Plague marines
20 Poxwalkers
10 Poxwalkers
Greater blight drone
1x3 spawn
Defiler
I don't have Plagueburst crawlers which I understand would serve me well in this match up but I hope there's more to it. Any advice?
if that is what you have there is not much room to improvement, you need gloaming bloat to turn off rerolls and eventually the drowing, but that work better with Mortarion around. Another good unit are deathshrouds, i play usully 9-12 of them with gloaming bloat LoC and blightspawn with vats i have too a biologus. Last match i had i played 4+4+3 of them +biologus LoC and blightspawn, against DA and they did tons of damage.Another option is soup with world bearer patrol for a sorcerer with death hex and warptime.Anyway SW suffer mortarion+lot of termies.
For reference this is last list i played.
Hmmm, it just happens I had a 2000 points game against space wolves recently. I won, but he admitted it wasn't the best space wolves list he had in mind because some models weren't ready yet. So, I can only share how that battle went. It was a great and fun game!!!
He had 3 troops with a stormshield termi in each squad to tank everything. He had 2 units of wolves, a 4 man thunderwolf calvary, Dreadnaught Murderfang, a buffed up Captain (Arjack I think), a buffed up leutanant and wolf priest (was it named?) as characters. He also had a Land Raider !! (with wulfen in it), and a long fangs unit also with a stormshield termi in it. So, almost everything had like 0+ armour save in cover or at least 1+ armor save, I was like wow...
My list was: Mortarion's Chosen (because of the relic flamer Vomitryx).
HQ: Lord of Contagion warlord with revoltingly rresilient, Malignant plague castor.
Troops: 20 pox walkers, 10 pox walkers, 5 plague marines (basic).
Fast Attack: 2 units of 3 chaos spawn (grandfathered).
Elites: 2x3 Death Shroud, 10 Blightlords (2 reaper autocannons, 2 flails) and the champion has plague skull of Glothila, Tallyman with Tollkeeper, Foul Blightspawn with relic Vomitryx and plaguechosen arch contaminator.
Heavy Support: 3 PBC with entropy cannons.
We played mission Priority Target. which had 5 objectives. Since we had 5, I took the secondaries Domination, Spread the Sickness and mission specific Priority Targets.
I got to go first. Before that, a bit about the terrain. There was a fairly large piece of ruin in the middle of the board that was obscuring. forests on either side, and some ruins in each deployment zone. That center big ruin basically meant that we couldn't shoot directly across at each other from our respective deployment zones but the sides zones were fair game.
I set up my 3 PBCs behind obscuring ruins far back. with 10 pox walkers on my priority objective. and put 1 deathshroud unit into deep strike. Big blightlord block in cover in the middle, supported by all my characters plus 1 deathshroud unit. Left flank near left objective had 20 pox walkers, my right flank was where I was throwing my faster stuff. I put 2 units of spawn, 1 PM unit to go after his side objective. He set up mostly in or behind ruins as well. Thunderwolf cavlery positioned to go up one flank after my objective with 20 pox walkers, with a unit of wolves. The other flank had nothing at first. (shock!) Everything else was in the middle of his deployment zone.
So I got to go first in the roll off. I shuffled the 3 PBCs, kept them obscured by the big center ruin. Moved up cautiously with my middle block of terminators (taking to stay out of charge range). Nobody was near the center objective. I moved up my 2 units of spawn and PM, keeping them either in cover, or behind forest.
Bolter shots from my PM squad killed one squad of wolves (wow those are very fragile). The PBC mortars took pot shots at his troops with one disgusting force mortar into his long fangs which had some units near it. With all the 0+ or 1+ armor, the mortars didn't do much. I didn't scratch the longfangs at all. Everything else was obscured.
His turn 1, He threw all of his shooting (from his LR and Long Fang squad) into the chaos spawn. Killed one unit, reduced another to 2 spawn. He had 3 characters in deep strike. He didn't advance into the center as well, probably cautious of my huge termi block. He climbed his long fangs onto the second floor of the back ruins, but they were obscured by the center ruins the whole game, and so could only shoot at the flanks. He drove his LR towards the flank with my spawn and PM, keeping it behind the center ruins too. He moved up his thunderwolf.
My turn 2, I spread out, making sure my 20 poxwalkers prevent him from deep strking into my left flank at the back, my PBCs stayed at the back, while the termi block moved up normally, still staying away from the middle objective. Right flank pivoted sideways, positioning to move at the center objective while also keeping everything on the right flank zoned out from deep strikes. Shooting took out his second wolf unit on the left flank. The forest made shooting rough with -1 for my PBCs, but I took out most of his Thunderwolf Calvary, except 1 model. Blightlords chipped at his troop unit in ruins reducing one unit down to 2 man.
His turn 2, He moved his LR to my right flank. He focused all LR firing at the remaining spawn unit, killing it. His longfangs shot at my poxwalkers, killing 7. His lone thunderwolf advanced and charged into that unit but wiffed killing only 1. So, I stayed on my objective, wrapped him and got 10 pox walkers into engagement range, used the mutant strain strategy, and killed that lone calvary with mortal wounds. There was now nothing on that flank's objective except for my poxwalkers. His wulfen exited his LR and charged into my PM squad wiping them out. He placed his 2 man squad on the right flank objective. He deep struck his 3 characters into his own lines because he was screened out.
My turn 3, Used the dead walk again and grew back 5 or 6 pox walkers. He was rather discouraged by that... Shooting was mixed. He popped smoke on his LR. I rolled badly and all my 3 PBC shooting only took a 2 wounds off his LR. Vomitryx took out 4 wulfen, and incidental shooting took out the rest of that squad. I deep struck the deathshroud near to right flank objective, rolled a 9 and charged into his 2 man squad on the objective. He heroic intervened another full strength squad troop with termi sergeant onto the deathshroud. My deathshroud took out the 2 man unit, and another 3 from his other troop squad. I advanced all of my middle termi block and characters up so that I was fairly near the center now, within the ruins.
His turn 3, LR continued shooting and took a PBC down to 6 wounds. His long fangs had nothing except my poxwalkers to shoot at rest of the game, but they just couldnt do enough. They would be ineffective for the rest of the game. He charged two characters into my deathshroud unit and killed it. We were both still not on the middle objective.
My turn 4: I made my move. Moved my big termi block onto the center objective and dared him to charge me. Shooting took his LR down to 2 wounds.
His turn 4: He made his big move. LR killed one PBC. Rest of his shooting killed one blightlord model. He charged his dreadnaught Murderfang and his beefed up captain Arjack into my center deathshroud unit. Moved his librarian and his last troop unit up the left flank toward my poxwalkers. (It took them 4 turns to get into position there). In combat, my deathshroud unit performed admirably and only lost 2 men. The Deathshroud champion chipped some wounds from the dreadnaught Murderfang.
My turn 5: The blightlords spread out over the center towards the left. Lone Deathshroud retreated out of combat onto the center objective. Shooting killed the LR on 2 wounds left, reduced the full strength troop unit on the left flank to 2 man and killed Murderfang. Perhaps the highlight was my blightlord champion throwing the plague skull of Golitha at the space wolf captain and inflicting 9 mortal wounds killing him! ( I rolled well). I didn't have to kill them in close combat at all. So, lacking anyone else to charge, my blightlords bloc made a 9 inch charge into the 2 man troop on the left and the librarian and killed them.
His turn 5: He didn't have much left. One long Fang squad still perched on 2nd floor. a leutenant and remnants of a troop squad on the right flank objective and that was it. So, they didn't accomplish anything except incidental shooting and sitting on objectives.
We tallied up the points, I won with 91 points to his 45. I got 12 VP on domination, 9 on spread the sickness and 15 on priority targets and maxed out 45 vp on primary.
My thoughts. We were both wary of each other's melee ability. He said he mathed out that he had the ability to one shot Mortarion with his army. Except I didn't bring Mortarion! lol. So, we kind of kept out of each other's way and focused on the battle at the flanks with our middle blocks both circling each other around the big center ruin.
He lost the left flank when he under estimated how good 20 pox walkers were and losing his thunderwolf calvery. He then threw his wulfen into my right flank forces and lost that unit as well. When the big center battle battle finally happened as I took the center objective, he didn't have enough to take on 13 terminators supported by 4 characters and lost the center battle.
Every unit did its role well. Even the spawn that died early, because they forced him to shift forces around and absorbed a lot of shooting. The PBCs shooting was erratic, but over 5 turns, it evened out. And playing cat and mouse meant that I only lost one, while he lost his LR and his long fangs didn't have any good targets for most of the game. Terminators tank all the damage and keep up the pressure. Poxwalkers hold objectives and help screen against deep strikes. That relic Vomitryx is worth taking Mortarion's Chosen for me. 7 shots from a relic flamer is amazing. With my contagion lowering even a LR to T7, and me rerolling wounds because of arch contaminator, that relic flamer put 6 wounds into a LR in one round. So is that plague skull (one shot Arjack). I actually didn't end up doing that much close combat melee, surprisingly, despite both of our armies being good at melee.
I don't know if my one game is enough to share about how to handle space wolves. But my strategy which worked in that game was to keep out of or stay at near max charge range, and whittle down his units. Even if he tried charging in, he would likely only get one or two units into combat, which would then get ganged up on and obliterated by my whole army. My middle block was big enough in frontage to move to assist either side of the flanks if necessary while still firing and doing decent damage on the move. I only moved into the center aggressively when I had whittled him down enough. I basically played sacrifice with my cheap units for his strong units. I used cheap poxwalkers, chaos spawn and PM to tempt him to use up his shooting and throw in some of his faster hard hitting units like wulfen and thunderwolf calvary who then got killed by the rest of my army. Hope this helps!
I honestly don't know how to advise about not using PBCs. Because my list uses three. lol They are great not because of the firepower they can do in one turn, but more because they survive for most of the 5 turns and the shooting over 5 turns then adds up and their randomness evens out. I am happy to sacrifice one round of shooting with their direct guns if it will force my opponent's heavy support out of hiding or position.
Has anyone here tried to new Charadon stuff? The material preview on the GW site looked good, and there seems to be a fair bit of stuff put in the book, but I don't want to buy a whole book for four pages of mostly meh.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Has anyone here tried to new Charadon stuff? The material preview on the GW site looked good, and there seems to be a fair bit of stuff put in the book, but I don't want to buy a whole book for four pages of mostly meh.
It has literally been leaked hours ago. Even if someone started playing right after the first leak, they would just have barely finished packing up.
In my opinion the whole thing is mostly fluff only. If you really want to field a huge poxwalker horde lead by Typhus, you should get this book, as it's probably the only chance of making it viable. The stratagems buffing poxwakers are rather good, the psychic discipline is decent for daemon princes, relics are good as well. However, nothing really solves the issue of losing any and all weapons that can handle vehicles.
It's also worth noting that any attempt at soup, even as little as another plague company patrol or bringing Mortarion, will lock you out of everything in that book, in including stratagems, relics and psychic powers. Your entire army must be vehicle-free Harbingers for it to work, and if you bring Typhus, he must be your warlord.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On second read, I guess you might be asking for the leak itself. There is a well-readable video of it here:
Losing vehicles is kinda of big even if its a thematic list based on Typhus. Vehicles are literally our only source of antitank. Unless we plan to go up close and punch vehicles to death. It feels like its a stand there are die list. Just flood the objectives with stuff and stand on them until our army gets wiped out, and see if we can win just by that alone.
I mean I kind of picture DG just standing there being the immovable object trying to be shoved off by an irresistible force.
Is the Typhus Poxwalker army tournament strong? Doubtful. Does it sound fun and thematic? To me it does.
The gaming group at my LGS are mostly noobs with very little in the way of a tournament mindset so I try not to bring net lists that are known to crush opponents who are tournament minded. I don't want to crush somebody 100-30 just because I have the tools to do so.
I have the models for the Typhus DS Poxwalker horde and next time I get to the LGS I'll try it out. Will it do horribly? Probably. Will I have fun playing it? Most definitely.
I play my Sorirtas for fun most time. I have 27 Repentia, 30 Zephyrim and 3x5 MM Rets but sometimes I like to take Celestians and Dominions just to handicap myself so I don't feel like I'm beating up a 5yo on the playground.
I haven't been paying massive attention to this release and I don't really have any spare time at the minute for the reviews and whatnot. Can someone please just let me know, these rules, are they for matched play as well? Don't know if I can face another DG book so quickly after the recent codex.
is for matched too...just a terminus est strike force with some limitations about what you can take a new psy discipline and some specific stratagems, hardly it will be played in competitive i believe.
So I was looking at Terminus Est Strike force rules. There is some potential there... possibly. I might try it just to test how it goes.
But based on having to pay 1 more CP than normal to put stuff into strategic reserve. The most ideal is probably three 5 man PM squads for 3 CP. You can kit out three such squads for deep striking in. Like maybe give each squad a plague blecher, and have the Champion wield a power fist. The turn they come down, they will mow down any chaff. Then, charge hopefully into melee. I don't think you need the plague cleaver really. Just tagging vehicles is usually bad enough to shut them down. One power fist is probably more than enough to slowly punch out a vehicle over time.
Three squads of PM are all objective secured and cost slightly over 300 points. So, in exchange for taking no vehicles, we get to deepstrike three PM squads from strategic reserve. Its a fair trade. I think if we take enough pox walkers and other stuff (terminators) to tank the first one or two turns. The PM squads and the rest of the army should clear out any chaff on the field leaving just the heavy support or vehicles. And those alone will not usually win missions or objectives. Especially if you have 3 pox walker squads plus those 3 PM squads hogging up all the objectives.
If you run into an army that has a lot of chaff that can spread out all over the board, then just start with everything on the table. The army is literally 2000 points of infantry plus its disgustingly resilient. It should outlast most armies that are trying to spread out across the board all over the place.
Another benefit of taking Terminus Est Strike force is you will likely bring Typhus, and no PBC. So, Taking the secondary While We Stand, We Fight secondary seem like almost a no brainer. (Not to mention spread the sickness). If you have Typhus, a big block of 10 terminators, and one Daemon Prince. Now you have a big block which is super hard to kill, and usually last to end of the game, plus two beefy characters that if you are smart about, are unlikely to die either.
Picking secondaries is much easier for Terminaus Est Strike Force than for other more typical DG armies. Just my 2 cents.
(Also, being able to deep strike in 5 man PM squads makes The Blightening Strategem extremely deadly). The turn they come down, use overwhelming generosity to extend plague weapon range by 6 inches. Now your 18 autohit blight grenade shots are 12 inches range. So, you will absolutely obliterate some stuff on the turn you deep strike in from three possible places, and if they fail to kill 15 PM within one turn, you get to do The Blightening the next turn again (because the PM squads are now at the ideal range for this strategem now). And you can do this strategem in combat too. So, if you make your 9 inch charge into melee. You definitely should remember to use this strategem next turn to autohit 18 grenade hits in engagement range!
The army is ideal against armies which are not able to screen effectively. Or can only screen by tying itself into big knots. Basically, they have to worry so much about positioning against 300+ points of PM squads that they let the rest of your army take over the table and win the objectives, in which case, your 15 deep striking PM have won you the game as well.
If your opponent castles up, he will lose. If he advances forward, but ends up leaving spaces behind in his zone for your 5 man squads to deep strike in, he will be in trouble too.
Grenades only auto-hit against targets in engagement range, otherwise they are regular pistols.
Outside of that, it feels like you are jumping through a ton of hoops have a lot of if's and when's without tackling the elephant in the room: How are you going to handle hard targets? I don't see what a Terminus Est Strike force will do against a bunch of tank commanders and artillery, knights, necrons bringing the silent king or other death guard. An ork buggy list might even give you trouble, as well as marine dread lists or other lists still relying on big models.
I think your plan is sound against the top dogs of the tournament meta, but will fall apart against gatekeeper armies which aren't winning tournaments but are popular anyways and regularly played.
Copying and pasting my thoughts on the army of Renow that I posted elsewhere. Warning: it’s a bit of a read.
I think people by in large are underrating this. I’ll go over the fair criticism this army of Renow gets but then discuss why I think it could see play.
For me the problem with this “formation” comes in 2 parts. The first is that it will lock you into a vehiclea-less poxwalker spam build. I’m thinking you are going to want at least 80 poxwalkers in a this army and I see 100 as being slightly better. Easy to fit all this in as the rest of list is many terminators, with less possessed/ Plague marines (min squads of these).
The second part of my big problem with the formation is that the terminator/poxwalker build has little long range threat. That is a tough pill to swallow when playing this game and will be the biggest hindrance in having this list work.
So why do I think Terminus Est might still end being good competitively anyway? Mainly because movement 7 poxwalkers that pile-in 6 are extremely strong, especially in harbingers. I had these guys take on Telemon dreadnoughts and win for context, as it’s not hard to do 12+ MW with their re-roll hits mortal wounds on 6+ combo. They can also use the 7 dice +3 revive strat to get closer even faster (revive guys in front of unit) , making it awkward for your opponent to not whipe out the unit. Doubly awkward with the formation since you can tide of traitors back a unit to full. Honesty much like the old cultist spam list, you could use all your CP on poxwalkers and not be too unhappy (this list will play very similarly to that one).
Finally the psychic powers and relics add some utility. As said in the video, remove -2 AP from an enemy units and the 6+ charge powers are standouts. But I actually like the 3 mortal wound if you beat your opponents toughness power on DP more than the re-roll hits with plague weapons. With Tallyman and/or Vermin Whispers it’s easy to get guys to hit on a 2+ and then use a lords re-roll bubble to re-roll all (1s) to hits.
A DP on the other hand can be T 7 with a WLT, meaning he can be effectively T8 with his contagion. That beats a lot of characters in a battle, and nobody wants to take 3 MW (or more with luck).
So what else can you give the DP besides the T7 Warlord trait? How about a Relic which let’s him turn a failed save into a passed one. This is extremely good as it can effectively give your DP 2+ wounds back if he gets hit by something scary. Disallowing re-roll to wounds is also a great buff, at that stuff is extremely common (and got even more common with the release of Dark Eldar). These 2 relics and warlord traits make a great tank DP.
Finally the +6 to casts is a nice extra relic, as it give some range to our powers we don’t normally have on our powers.
So overall will it be good enough? Personally I believe it’s meta dependent at the moment. Armies that can dish-out a lot of Medium AP, high rate of fire weapons at range could be a problem (although faster poxwalkers might help with that.) I certainly think melee focused armies might struggle, as this army still gets a foulblightspawn and has plenty of chaff to absorb the initial hit, while presenting loads of dangerous assault elements itself. That said if the build is not good it’s unlikely the force will ever be good, unless changes to it happen.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here’s a list I wrote using the new rules. (Note the DP and the plague caster have the relics I discussed.
Quick question regarding the Charadon detachment: Do we have any insight as to whether it was playtested along with the codices coming up to the release of 9th? Or are GW just cutting off the head of the chicken, and seeing where it stops running?
I will give it some testing if I can and see how it goes. I think its a bit wasted if we don't take advantage of the deep strike PM squads. Its one of the perks of the Terminus Est force after all. I think the pox walkers are great, but the army doesn't fall apart just because you lose your poxwalkers. Because in most lists, even if you run 3 squads, they won't even be 20% of your list in total points.
Even if you ran into an opponent who is so traumatized by poxwalkers he throws every single gun he has towards obliterating them, that means he literally spent all his shooting killing models which are only 5 points each. And if he even fails to kill that last few which you hide behind obscuring cover, you bring the entire squad back again. Overly focusing all the energy on this 250 to 300 points of poxwalkers means he is going to lose to the rest of the 1700 points of your army he ignored.
Regarding vehicles. My view is that if its purely shooting vehicles. Those do not win you the game in 9th edition if they are all you have. I played a game with an IG+white scars player. He had two tank commanders and two fully loaded manticores, using vengence of Cadia each turn. But after I killed everything else in his army, we talked through it and agreed he couldn't win after that. Because these vehicles can literally only stand there and shoot. Even if by some amazing dice rolls, he manages the impossible task of shooting my whole army off the board, it would be too late by then. (Probably need to be turn 5), plus by then, he would have zero assets to take back objectives and win VP.
Besides, in my post above, I think the army has a good chance of shooting off most or all of the chaff after the PMs deep strike in. After that, just get into melee on the vehicles and tag them while staying on objectives. If we can win with a few vehicles shooting for 5 turns, we can definitely win with a few vehicles shooting effectively for only 2 or 3 turns while being tagged and forced to shoot into combat for the remaining turns.
The thing is, DG are very lethal in close combat. Every single one of our units, from our terminators to even our pox walkers will give someone a bad time if you get into close combat with us. Even if you are a vehicle, you do not want to get into melee range with us unless you are some kind of combat dreadnaught. Blightlords and deathshroud are litereally wounding T7 vehicles on 4s even without any strategems and poxwalkers don't care because they just rely on pumping out mortal wounds anyway. And its not as if the Terminus strike force list is a pure melee army either. PMs, terminators, blightspawn can all shoot, and our psychic bullets are not to be scoffed at either. If you ignore 10 blightlords, 6 deathshrouds and 15 PM firing their guns at you.... you are going to be in a bad place.
Long post about my experience getting second at a local tournament and about the new Terminus assault force.
Spoiler:
Took a list this past weekend to my first tourney since covid, and ended up placing second. Here was my list (No terminators because I don’t own any and they have been unavailable to get since the codex dropped for me).
Mortarion, CSM Word bearers sorcerer (warptime, prescience), LoC, Daemon Prince w/ferric blight, three 5 man vanilla Plague marine squads, three 20 man Poxwalker squads, Fleshmower drone, 3 Spawn, one plague burst crawler.
Game plan was to ram Morty down opponent’s throat with warptime while 60 poxwalkers and 30 plague marine wounds swarm objectives. Rest was there to do damage, be a distraction, or help with secondaries.
Game 1 I faced a Dark Angels list with 3 DA Termy squads guarding 3 talon masters, Azrael, Ezekiel, apothecary, bladeguard ancient.
His game plan was to push each squad towards an objective and not die, while talon masters dumped shots out. His whole army was untargetable except for the terminators. For his big squad with all the support characters, he was right, and I couldn’t touch em.
But, I pushed one flank super hard with morty, DP, poxies, and marines, and thanks to death hex was able to clear the squad out fairly easily. Made it to his back objective (his deathball with HQs had pushed to mid table, leaving his back obj undefended except for one of the termy squads), and was able to clear him off it one turn before he maxed points from the dark angel secondary. Because of this, his only board presence was on one objective, and I managed to win off primaries. Close game score wise, as he scored secondary’s better than me. Death Hex was easy MVP for this game. Shout out Blackmage and the others who recently talked about Chaos familiar on this forum, because without that I wouldn’t have even known it was possible. Morty with Death hex is just mean haha.
Game 2 I faced custodes and it was a one sided slaughter. You thought Morty with Deathhex was good vs Dark angel terminators, well it was even better against Custodes. He charged 2 big bike squads into morty, who took only like 6 wounds, and then just eviscerated them one by one. He had nothing to deal with poxies, and I just ran over him in points. My favorite part of the game was a slapping contest between my DP and his Shield captain on bike. They were in like 4 rounds of combat together without managing to kill each other. Finally he fell back to go after my plague burst crawler (which he managed to do even less damage to). Turns out DR vs custodies d3 damage weapons is really strong.
Game 3 I went up against a novak Silent king necron list with 60 warriors and double chronomancer. This list was easily the nastiest I had faced in weeks. I did not go first (didn’t go first all tournament), and turn one he Veil of darknesses a 20 man blob of warriors straight into my front lines, move blocking me and letting his other 40 warriors push the midfield. With all his shooting, he did a whopping 10 wounds to mortarion, and decided to charge in with the warriors, bringing morty down to 6 wounds. I swung back, and even morty hitting on 2s, wounding on 2s rerolling ones had trouble killing these warriors. Turns out a 5++ and reanimation make a dirty dirty tarpit. Basically game was over there, I tried to push midfield with poxwalkers and just got bullied by warriors. I could not get past the silver wall. His turn 2 he fell back with the warriors, blasted morty down to 2 wounds, and killed him in combat. His one mistake was leaving a single lord guarding his back objective, and with disgusting force I shot my BPC at him thinking I could take him down, but of course he rolled a 4+ off a strat to reanimate him when he died. I didn’t score bad on points, but on a 5 objective game, him having the middle 3rd objective was too much of an advantage on primary. If I had gone first and could have beaten him to the punch to make it on that objective, it could have been a different story. Oh well, with the high scoring game that that still was, + my other 2 victories I managed to land in second still.
In terms of my units performance, I am entirely convinced that plague marines do NOT cut it. Extremely underwhelming all event long, poxwalkers just seemed better. More point for point durable it felt, did more damage in combat thanks to the MW strategum, and were more of a board prescence. My opponent largely ignored the plague marines, and did not take much damage for doing so, and when my opponent wanted them dead, the died. Mower drone was alright as a distraction unit, DP was ok, Mortarion was busted matchup 2 and great game 1, but felt like a liability game 3. PBC was amazing, pox walkers were great, and CSM sorcerer was MVP. Soup, soup away brethren, death hex is so good.
I largely left the event just wishing I had some terminator presence. If my list replaced plague marines with death shrouds (which wouldn’t be difficult), I think my list would have been significantly stronger.
If you are trying to compete at the highest level in tournaments (not saying I am there yet) it is my belief that plague marines are not the choice. If you are playing for fun or whatever, then go for it. But they are just so mediocre.
Ok now onto the Terminus Ex Assualt force.
Spoiler:
I am on the side that thinks there is potential. While it is very niche, and of course as stated there are some serious drawbacks, there are some major upsides.
A) Poxwalkers and terminators are incredible, and this force incentivizes their use.
B) The new psychic powers are very useful.
C) The deepstrike is interesting and ok
D) The strategums look VERY good.
As stated by someone else above, I too think a 100+ poxwalkers list could be a meta winner. I brought 60 in my event and not a single game did they all get killed. Im thinking of how scary they could be moving 3” more, while piling in more and with the potential to come back. And deepstrike?? Yes please.
Sure, this list struggles to kill armor. But does it really need too? You just play primary and take over the objectives. This list does what DG already do well, and does it better. At the expense of killing less. I do not think this is unbeatable, or that it is absolutely incredible, but it does look strong (as long as you don’t take plague marines ). And there are lots of little tricks and combos you can do.
Just imagine the look on your admech opponents face when you tell them their 100+ shots coming out of their robots are all at 0 AP, and your terminators are saving on 2+. Or a blood angels face when their big blob of sanguinary guard cant charge past 6”. Just two examples but both of those seem incredible.
So, while it is not strictly upside, and is kind of niche, I would say don’t write it off yet. Give it a test and report back to us here. I know I will be!
blackmage wrote: i still didn't see the whole set of rules, do someone have them? ty
Auspex tactics on YouTube has the rules laid out in a good manner. Just look up his terminus Est video.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote: I will give it some testing if I can and see how it goes. I think its a bit wasted if we don't take advantage of the deep strike PM squads. Its one of the perks of the Terminus Est force after all. I think the pox walkers are great, but the army doesn't fall apart just because you lose your poxwalkers. Because in most lists, even if you run 3 squads, they won't even be 20% of your list in total points.
Even if you ran into an opponent who is so traumatized by poxwalkers he throws every single gun he has towards obliterating them, that means he literally spent all his shooting killing models which are only 5 points each. And if he even fails to kill that last few which you hide behind obscuring cover, you bring the entire squad back again. Overly focusing all the energy on this 250 to 300 points of poxwalkers means he is going to lose to the rest of the 1700 points of your army he ignored.
Regarding vehicles. My view is that if its purely shooting vehicles. Those do not win you the game in 9th edition if they are all you have. I played a game with an IG+white scars player. He had two tank commanders and two fully loaded manticores, using vengence of Cadia each turn. But after I killed everything else in his army, we talked through it and agreed he couldn't win after that. Because these vehicles can literally only stand there and shoot. Even if by some amazing dice rolls, he manages the impossible task of shooting my whole army off the board, it would be too late by then. (Probably need to be turn 5), plus by then, he would have zero assets to take back objectives and win VP.
Besides, in my post above, I think the army has a good chance of shooting off most or all of the chaff after the PMs deep strike in. After that, just get into melee on the vehicles and tag them while staying on objectives. If we can win with a few vehicles shooting for 5 turns, we can definitely win with a few vehicles shooting effectively for only 2 or 3 turns while being tagged and forced to shoot into combat for the remaining turns.
The thing is, DG are very lethal in close combat. Every single one of our units, from our terminators to even our pox walkers will give someone a bad time if you get into close combat with us. Even if you are a vehicle, you do not want to get into melee range with us unless you are some kind of combat dreadnaught. Blightlords and deathshroud are litereally wounding T7 vehicles on 4s even without any strategems and poxwalkers don't care because they just rely on pumping out mortal wounds anyway. And its not as if the Terminus strike force list is a pure melee army either. PMs, terminators, blightspawn can all shoot, and our psychic bullets are not to be scoffed at either. If you ignore 10 blightlords, 6 deathshrouds and 15 PM firing their guns at you.... you are going to be in a bad place.
To be honest the Deep striking ability excites me the least about this formation. It just cost too much CP for me to deepstrike more than 1 unit (if that), especially when I could be spending that CP to make my poxwalkers faster, kill harder, or come back from the dead.
Also the problem is no of our infantry does enough shooting to pressure your opponents firepower. While we can survive plenty of heavy firepower, our army is more durable when where can whittle opposing firepower. There is a big difference between 2 Tank commanders shooting us for 4 turns vs 3 as an example.
True, but I would caution over reliance on our pox walkers. They are great but, they can be killed. In the end, they are T4 with a 6+ FNP. Dedicated infantry killers will kill them. Like I said before, even if we take as many as 80, its just 400 points, which is barely 20% of our army. If our opponent cannot handle, and is in turn beaten by 20% of our army, then his list and game play likely wasn't all that good.
Deep striking PM are a threat that can't be ignored. Especially because they are obsec. And deep striking reduces their vulnerability to shooting to just the turn they come down (or maybe not even that if they make the 9 inch charge).
I haven't test out the Terminus Est list yet, but I am keen to give it a go. It actually seems to make picking secondaries easier. It doubles down on board control and getting VP in lieu of giving up vehicle killing ability. I think we might be under estimating this type of list. A skewed list might beat it.. maybe. But it should do well against far far more typical lists out there.
One more benefit I thought of, in giving up PBCs is that our army has zero melee vulnerabilities. With vehicles, you have to watch out for some deep strike or being tagged by a flying or super fast unit that charges into your PBC. With the Terminus Est list, the whole army is capable of fighting in close combat. So, there is no longer any such vulnerability there.
Not saying Terminus Est lists is better than our codex lists. Just that they are slightly different and may be just as powerful in their own way.
(I guess when it comes down to it, I also want a reason to field more plague marines, Its kind of sad that plague marines just don't really cut it right now when I try and use them. Terminators are better and pox walkers are much cheaper. So, if even deep striking PMs don't cut it, then our signature PM will have very little representation in my lists sadly).
Eldenfirefly wrote: True, but I would caution over reliance on our pox walkers. They are great but, they can be killed. In the end, they are T4 with a 6+ FNP. Dedicated infantry killers will kill them. Like I said before, even if we take as many as 80, its just 400 points, which is barely 20% of our army. If our opponent cannot handle, and is in turn beaten by 20% of our army, then his list and game play likely wasn't all that good.
Deep striking PM are a threat that can't be ignored. Especially because they are obsec. And deep striking reduces their vulnerability to shooting to just the turn they come down (or maybe not even that if they make the 9 inch charge).
I haven't test out the Terminus Est list yet, but I am keen to give it a go. It actually seems to make picking secondaries easier. It doubles down on board control and getting VP in lieu of giving up vehicle killing ability. I think we might be under estimating this type of list. A skewed list might beat it.. maybe. But it should do well against far far more typical lists out there.
One more benefit I thought of, in giving up PBCs is that our army has zero melee vulnerabilities. With vehicles, you have to watch out for some deep strike or being tagged by a flying or super fast unit that charges into your PBC. With the Terminus Est list, the whole army is capable of fighting in close combat. So, there is no longer any such vulnerability there.
Not saying Terminus Est lists is better than our codex lists. Just that they are slightly different and may be just as powerful in their own way.
(I guess when it comes down to it, I also want a reason to field more plague marines, Its kind of sad that plague marines just don't really cut it right now when I try and use them. Terminators are better and pox walkers are much cheaper. So, if even deep striking PMs don't cut it, then our signature PM will have very little representation in my lists sadly).
I think we agree on the viability on the assault force as whole. Just because I’m calling it’s lack of long range firepower a weakness doesn’t mean I don’t think it can’t be competitive. Time will tell on this one.
Where we differ is how we see the role of PM in this build. I see this army maybe running 1 squad as a deepstrike nuisance unit. In essence a unit that comes in at a hole in your OP army and steals an objective and/or preforms actions. You seem to have this idea of bringing 3 squads down as some kind hammer of wrath style Teleport strike, which frankly doesn’t make much sense to me. For my money PM are exactly a non-threat that can absolutely be ignored, unless you paid points to make them killy in which case you are better off using terminators anyway. That’s the fundamental problem of PM vs Poxwalkers. Both are durable for their point cost but poxwalkers need CP to be killy whereas PM need more points investment to be killy. That’s a problem because spending more points on unit decreases their durability.
You can either believe me on this or do what ninjafiredragon and bring them to event only to change your mind after it’s over. (IMO I think there’s a good chance he wins his last game if he made the changes he decided on by dropping the PM for 2 deathshroud units). That said I think he did well against the competition he faced.
Tabletop titans just had a game using a Terminus Est list. Adrian took too many pox walkers and it ended up putting him at a disadvantage because Brian then took the Thin their ranks secondary and easily maxed out on that.
But those deep striking plague marines were good! A min 5 man squad with a flail is surprisingly effective in many situations. I think a Terminus Est list with enough terminators, 50 to 60 pox walkers and 3 min PM squads will be pretty a pretty lean and mean list.
Since losing Blades of Putrefaction, I've become much less enamored with the Contagion discipline. I think the Fester discipline has some real potential - and being able to use both if you have multiple psykers is excellent.
Anyone tried a Rotten Constitution Daemon Prince with Accelerated Entropy? It's swingy, but you can take a serious bite out of almost anything.
MinMax wrote: Since losing Blades of Putrefaction, I've become much less enamored with the Contagion discipline. I think the Fester discipline has some real potential - and being able to use both if you have multiple psykers is excellent.
Anyone tried a Rotten Constitution Daemon Prince with Accelerated Entropy? It's swingy, but you can take a serious bite out of almost anything.
I loved Blades but with our new -1T I find most of my units are deadly enough as is in Melee. Miasma will always be amazing and the rest of the Contagion spells are decent. My main issue with the new Fester discipline is that while it has some good spells, all but one are warp charge 7 which is pretty steep for a faction with no way but one to get better results on the cast and even then only for one Psyker. That's before we start factoring in the loss of our vehicle pool for it too.
Virules wrote: They definitely made the Fester discipline too high in terms of WC value. No idea what GW was thinking there.
I agree. A major downside to taking the Fester descipline. I hope its optional to take it rather than mandatory. I bet they got sucked into the whole 7 is Nurgle's number fluff again.
MinMax wrote: It's optional, you may choose to generate from the Fester discipline or the Contagion discipline.
Thank goodness! I just got the book. Yup, its optional. That's a relief.
BTW, I just had a great game with DG. It was a DG vs DG matchup. We were both a bit cagey at first and didn't want to go all in charging at each other. But ultimately, all the terminators clashed and it was a bloodbath!!! My army had 6 deathshroud and 10 blightlords. His army had 4 deathshroud and 15 blightlords! By the end of the game, I had only 3 blightlords left and he had 5 Ieft I think. lol. Who said DG couldn't deal damage? Both of us still had our 3 PBCs though. Those are just so hard to kill we didn't bother and mostly just directed all fire onto the rest of the army. I lost by just 1 VP because of a tactical error. I ain't even mad! Such close games are the best to play !
Automatically Appended Next Post: I faced a space wolf LR in another battle previously, and it got me seriously thinking about Land Raiders. The thing is, you can put deathshrouds into a LR, plus 1 or 2 characters, and that would be a well protected, super mean punch. Even 9 PM with a biologus in a LR is deadly when they come out of that LR.
And a LR is not easy to kill. Its different from a super heavy in that it can be hidden behind obscuring. So, if you are facing shooting that is so deadly (like maybe admech), it can hide behind obscuring terrain. You still give a +3 inch movement to your stuff piling out of the LR.
Also, now that smoke screen is a strategem, you can shoot plus activate smoke screen every turn if you want. And the LR has a fair amount of guns on it. The space wolf LR I faced died in the end, but that was on turn 5. It was doing smoke screen and firing all guns every turn, it delivered wolfen into battle. That model did a ton of work. And I couldn't help thinking it would be cool for DG too.
And it might be better in today's melta environment too. Mainly because we don't need a LR to move so aggressively forward. We just need it to protect and give 3 more inches movement to a deathshroud or a PM squad. So, a LR can stay out of multimelta range if it wants to. That plus making use of obscuring terrain, and smoke screen... I think a LR would actually do a lot of work for a DG army.
I think land raiders might be a little more interesting if they had other weapon options besides Lascannons. They're just so underwhelming on a vehicle that needs to move in close to drop off it's cargo.
The Achilles is a little more interesting with its 2x twin multimelta and an invulnerable save. That would probably wipe a unit of 4 or 5 eradicators and go a long way to helping it survive. The trouble is the Achilles only has a transport capacity of 6.
And that sums up all the LRs. They don't do anything really well. Not a great tank, not a great transport, not particularly durable, not particularly quick...
I also think land raiders are secretly good, just pointed too high. I’ve posted before that most units can “be good” if priced right, and the Land Raider is like the poster boy of this theory. If they came with DR, 295 would even still seem too steep. Perhaps if they could take entropy cannons and blight launchers instead of HBs and Lascannons, or if their smoke screen also put up your warlord’s contagion, or if they could regen wounds or really anything else that would make them more Death Guardy AND better, I could stomach that price tag.
how guys can ever belive for a second that a tank cost almost 300pts, no inv.save no way to mitigate damage and just armed with 2 lascannons can be barely good in a meta where top lists can delete an IK and half in 1 single turn... without take into account how much expensive DG already is.
Christ you're insufferable, nobody is claiming they're competitive, but they could be made to work in fun games. Sometimes people just want to hammer out the best way to run their favourite units.
They are undoubtedly sub-optimal, but in a tuned list, with the landraider being the only real fat in the list I'm sure it can be made to work...
Yeah, I wish they were cheaper in points. Guess it would be in more casual kind of lists. :( In the end, the LR would be cut for other stuff if we wanted to make the list leaner.
While I agree blackmage can be a bit overly harsh when it comes to unit criticism (by blurring the line between unit and people cristism, but hey I’m guilty of this to as are many others) I have say he’s mostly right about the landraider. Sure you can make a list that works playing it, but I’d expect that one descion to lower such a lists win percentage by 4-8%. If landraiders could re-rolls or any buffs that didn’t include stratagems I’d like them more, but at the moment their a mediocre shooting platform, an expensive transport, and fragile for their points. You can never not love their look/fluff, but atm I’d never consider running them in a competitive list.
Abaddon303 wrote: Christ you're insufferable, nobody is claiming they're competitive, but they could be made to work in fun games. Sometimes people just want to hammer out the best way to run their favourite units.
They are undoubtedly sub-optimal, but in a tuned list, with the landraider being the only real fat in the list I'm sure it can be made to work...
ok then....a few eradicators/melta bikes are enough to wreak a LR, im not talking or super optimized tournament lists, a normal list too can use them and take out 300pts of model+eventually models that can die in explosion. 300pts for a walking coffin is too much no matter the level of play, in "friendly" games rhino are a better choice.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Tabletop titans just had a game using a Terminus Est list. Adrian took too many pox walkers and it ended up putting him at a disadvantage because Brian then took the Thin their ranks secondary and easily maxed out on that.
But those deep striking plague marines were good! A min 5 man squad with a flail is surprisingly effective in many situations. I think a Terminus Est list with enough terminators, 50 to 60 pox walkers and 3 min PM squads will be pretty a pretty lean and mean list.
Word of warning, tabletop titans should not be considered a competitive 40k resource. Their goal has been clearly been to cram out as much content as quickly as possible with as many armies as possible. They still work their day jobs, and have been focusing on video quality and viewer engagement.
Why I bring this all up is all this requires that something else is given up, and to me that something is actual gameplay. None of their armies have been top tier competitive for a while (or at all competitive). Some of this is intentional, but I think their lists are worse than even they think they are.
The bigger problem they have is rules mistakes. From constant codex errors (since they play so many armies) to just general mistakes, there hasn’t been case I’ve seen recently where chat hasn’t had to correct the guys at least 5-10 times a game, and sometimes it’s more like 15-20 (if are looking at any errors they make.
Case in point the BR you are referencing has the objectives 3 inches closer to Brian’s Deployment zone than Adrians. That allowed Brian to take objectives in a way that prevented Adrain from even contesting without killing Brian’s custodes first. This one error probably increased Brian’s win percentage by 20-30% as it gave him an easy way to win the primary, which would have been Adrian’s win condition. I’d also say that Adrain’s list would still be better if he dropped the PM for terminators, but I think he wanted to show off deep-striking PMs.
This is a long way to say I don’t evaluate this BR as being at all relevant at gauging the strengths and weaknesses of the terminus Est strike force.
Abaddon303 wrote: Christ you're insufferable, nobody is claiming they're competitive, but they could be made to work in fun games. Sometimes people just want to hammer out the best way to run their favourite units.
They are undoubtedly sub-optimal, but in a tuned list, with the landraider being the only real fat in the list I'm sure it can be made to work...
ok then....a few eradicators/melta bikes are enough to wreak a LR, im not talking or super optimized tournament lists, a normal list too can use them and take out 300pts of model+eventually models that can die in explosion. 300pts for a walking coffin is too much no matter the level of play, in "friendly" games rhino are a better choice.
As I said, nobody is claiming they are competitive it's just tiresome that whenever anybody mentions a non A-tier unit you throw scoff and scorn at them like they're some kind of idiot. People are here to just shoot the breeze about units in the army, the competitive units in the codex have already been well established so otherwise what more is there to discuss?
Fact is, our terminators have inbuilt deepstrike and possessed take up too much space so transports are largely not worth it in our army along with the smaller board. If you did have something you really needed to transport tho, T8, 2+ save and smokescreen does make the land raider considerably tougher than a rhino.
In fact it'll take about 5 melta shots at half range to wreck a rhino and more like 15 to kill a land raider so that 300% price tag gives you about 300% durability. I appreciate it gets a bit wonky when it's eradicators as they are best into a single big target.
Yeah, I was throwing out the LR for discussion. I know its probably not the most competitive, but sometimes, you might not want to bring the most cut throat list out there to a game. And in some matchups, a LR might not be that bad. Like for example, in a DG mirror matchup. DG don't have easy ways to kill a LR. I know, because I played against one, and even with 3 PBCs, I could only kill a LR at the last turn. That -1 to hit smokescreen is really effective against PBCs.
Same about Tabletop titans, I think they are good enough. They sometimes suffer because they have almost every army, and they are willing to try all the newest armies too. But 9th edition is getting pretty complicated. Each new codex has a lot of new rules in it. Given their battle reports are live and not pre-recorded. I think they already do fine. And both are great players. They will let some perfect play slide every now and then because its not a tourney match, but they have probably played far more 40k games than most of us have during this Covid time. So, I would still say they have far more experience than the majority of us out here because of the sheer number of 40k games they have played against each other.
I also think they do showcase very well what various armies bring to the table. At the end of the day, its a dice roll game too. But certain strategies and units showcase their effectiveness and power despite all the dice rolling. Like if I am facing a Drkuri army now, I am going to give those fragile dark elves a ton of respect because wow are they deadly in close combat!!!
Look as far as entertainment goes TTT (Titans) are a great resource. Realistically, I think the only thing we disagree on with here is taking them as any sort of higher 40k authority. Playing too many armies and only having themselves as regular opponents hurts their competitively. As an example, they where the chief proponents that Ad-mech where an S tier army when 9th first came out. Everyone picked up on this because they where 9th Ed playtesters, so you kept seeing “Ad-mech are likely the best army atm” etc, etc parroted all over the place. A few COVID tournaments happen and.... Ad mech don’t win anything, and the builds that are good have little to do with what TTT said was good.
Similar things occurred with blood angles and now I fear Drukhari. If I ever bought models solely on what I think is good I’d never trust TTT in my decision making. Just because guys play a lot of games does not mean they are more knowledgeable about the game than everyone else. Trust what stats say, not what content creators say.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Yeah, I was throwing out the LR for discussion. I know its probably not the most competitive, but sometimes, you might not want to bring the most cut throat list out there to a game. And in some matchups, a LR might not be that bad. Like for example, in a DG mirror matchup. DG don't have easy ways to kill a LR. I know, because I played against one, and even with 3 PBCs, I could only kill a LR at the last turn. That -1 to hit smokescreen is really effective against PBCs.
I was barely able to make a LR work for me with war of the spider where I could give it 5++/5+++. I haven't tried one yet with the new codex, but I doubt that -1 to hit is enough to keep it alive against all the d3+3 and melta weapons out there.
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Eldenfirefly wrote: I also think they do showcase very well what various armies bring to the table. At the end of the day, its a dice roll game too. But certain strategies and units showcase their effectiveness and power despite all the dice rolling. Like if I am facing a Drkuri army now, I am going to give those fragile dark elves a ton of respect because wow are they deadly in close combat!!!
I played against them yesterday and holy crap do they do damage now. Luckily, they still die exactly as fast as they did before, but there is a real threat of them completely wiping out a DG army even if you go heavy on terminators. I feel like I definitely need a plan to pop their transports ASAP, a boat full of trueborn can easily clear out all your poxwalkers and you do not want that shredder build master succubus to connect with your terminators - she can take out an entire squad of 5 on her own.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Yeah, I was throwing out the LR for discussion. I know its probably not the most competitive, but sometimes, you might not want to bring the most cut throat list out there to a game. And in some matchups, a LR might not be that bad. Like for example, in a DG mirror matchup. DG don't have easy ways to kill a LR. I know, because I played against one, and even with 3 PBCs, I could only kill a LR at the last turn. That -1 to hit smokescreen is really effective against PBCs.
I was barely able to make a LR work for me with war of the spider where I could give it 5++/5+++. I haven't tried one yet with the new codex, but I doubt that -1 to hit is enough to keep it alive against all the d3+3 and melta weapons out there.
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Eldenfirefly wrote: I also think they do showcase very well what various armies bring to the table. At the end of the day, its a dice roll game too. But certain strategies and units showcase their effectiveness and power despite all the dice rolling. Like if I am facing a Drkuri army now, I am going to give those fragile dark elves a ton of respect because wow are they deadly in close combat!!!
I played against them yesterday and holy crap do they do damage now. Luckily, they still die exactly as fast as they did before, but there is a real threat of them completely wiping out a DG army even if you go heavy on terminators. I feel like I definitely need a plan to pop their transports ASAP, a boat full of trueborn can easily clear out all your poxwalkers and you do not want that shredder build master succubus to connect with your terminators - she can take out an entire squad of 5 on her own.
In that game, there was a big piece of obscuring ruins terrain in the middle of the board. So, his LR was on one side of that terrain. As my PBCs were spread out, only 2 could get line of sight. (And on turn 1 and 2, none could). He popped smoke, so that means those two were shooting a total of 4 shots at 4+ to hit. And I didnt have the LR in contagion range, so 4s to wound. 4 to hit, 4 to wound, I totally wiffed on turn 3, and only managed to wound once with the 4 shots on turn 4. Hence why it only died on turn 5.
I am sure there are bad matchups for the LR. But in some matchups, a LR could be interesting. Just saying.
Statistically though, if only 2 PBCs were shooting their entropy cannons at a LR with smoke screen. Getting only 1 wound through is statistically average. And if you can only do D3+3 damage every turn. You could take 4 turns to inflict the 16 wounds required to kill that LR if you rolled bad for the damage roll. And that's assuming the LR failed all its armor saves of 6. And even if you threw in the mortars, its 4s to hit, 4s to wound, and then 4s to save... You would be lucky to get even a single mortar shell through all that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way, another topic. Have anyone of you faced the new Drukhari yet? I have no idea how to fight them. Their fragile T3 is a trap, because they can hide in transports until they are ready to charge out. And they are extremely cheap and so they trade units really well. And as a poster above said, they are so deadly in combat even our terminators will face problems. (High volume of attacks, which is our bane). So, how should we fight Drukhari as DG ? Jidmah, can share more about your match? How do you think we should fight Drukhari ?
Well, I totally bombed that match by making three grave playing errors and only won because my opponent failed two 5" charges in the same turn, so I'd rather not give a full battle report I also was playtesting poxmongers which didn't go so well. Theirstratagem is actually quite nice against drukhari, but the furnace isn't that great anymore and not having a good contagion sucks.
Outside of that, some things did work well: Drukhari suck at defending their backfield objectives, so I deep struck my deathshroud who destroyed a ravager, took an objective and denied a table quarter for their codex objective (2VP for every quarter the opponent isn't fully in). I had a trio of MBH which he had no good answer for but PBC probably would have been much better. Curse of the leper was gold for clearing out infantry, as are flamers. I used overwatch whenever possible. As for melee threats, wyches and blood brides aren't that dangerous for DG, incubi are bad but not impossible to kill (I got 7 with just poxwalkers), but the characters are absolutely insane. My opponent had Drazhar, a master succubus with 10 attacks that does 2 MW on each roll of 6 and a master archon with the djinn blade. The last two are insane glass cannons that you can just murder after they have eaten a unit, but darzhar now sports a 2+/4++ and hits like a knight. I have no clue what to do about him. Shot and charged him with plague marines, he killed them in a single turn. Tried to tarpit him with pox walkers afterwards, he went through 13 of them before they could fight. As for shooting, massed dark lances are nasty with their d3+3 damage, and trueborn kabalites are just insane - they hit on 2+ and ignore modifiers, they essentially deleted whatever they wanted without getting out of their boat. Eventually they had to get out to hold an objective, but then were completely wiped out by Typhus who drowned them in mortal wounds and cut down the remaining 5.
So essentially, I still killed most things by charging them, drukhari can't take punch at all. They key to defeating them seems to be taking out their combat monsters at minimal losses and popping transports early.
8th was all about killing their transports as a first priority. That seems to be still the case then? Is most of their anti-tank coming from their vehicles?
Right now, against a good player, I think we would be at a slight disadvantage against Drukhari. Because their beatstick characters hide amongst their army until its time to come out and play. And that makes it difficult to get to them. Their darklances are the same as our Entropy cannons (3+d3) but they can pack more of them than our 6 with 3 PBCs.
I agree though, the crucial thing seems to be to pop their transports. But if we try and do it by melee we sacrifice our melee units to pop it. And we are not exactly known for having alot of anti tank.
As far as drukhari are concerned, I see 2 main issues when facing them. First are raiders as we aren’t very good at popping open transports and raiders do work protecting their units from our overwatch (more on that later). Second is how dangerous their characters are. These are what’s going to kill our stuff.
Otherwise I’m not too worried about the new dex. In fact I think our matchup with them improved with their new book. Reason for this dark Eldar used to be a mobile shooting army using tough transports and wracks to hold objectives. Now they are hard hitting glass cannon assault army. We prefer facing assault armies much more than than gunline transport armies, as our units are extremely hard to kill in a round of melee.
To that end I think our mainstay units are quite effective at dealing with dark Eldar, while our more niche units got worse. Deathshroud our amazing as their flamers in overwatch are quite effective at dealing with their hammer units, and the champion by himself is still a major threat to a lot of their units. Morty is also excellent as gloaming bloat does a lot to neutralize a lot of these units CC output (and dark Eldar traditionally struggle to deal with big models. PBC are still a must to pop open transports. Mower drones are also still good since they have mobility to charge before being charged.
On the other hand PMs have problems against them due to dying quickly to things like witches and characters. I also think blightlords are a tad weak against them as well since their overwatch is worse than deathshroud and 1 guy living from them is far less of a problem for the drukhari player. Any vehicle with no inv is just asking for trouble, since drukhari have a bunch of ways to get through armor.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Tabletop titans just had a game using a Terminus Est list. Adrian took too many pox walkers and it ended up putting him at a disadvantage because Brian then took the Thin their ranks secondary and easily maxed out on that.
But those deep striking plague marines were good! A min 5 man squad with a flail is surprisingly effective in many situations. I think a Terminus Est list with enough terminators, 50 to 60 pox walkers and 3 min PM squads will be pretty a pretty lean and mean list.
Word of warning, tabletop titans should not be considered a competitive 40k resource. Their goal has been clearly been to cram out as much content as quickly as possible with as many armies as possible. They still work their day jobs, and have been focusing on video quality and viewer engagement.
Why I bring this all up is all this requires that something else is given up, and to me that something is actual gameplay. None of their armies have been top tier competitive for a while (or at all competitive). Some of this is intentional, but I think their lists are worse than even they think they are.
The bigger problem they have is rules mistakes. From constant codex errors (since they play so many armies) to just general mistakes, there hasn’t been case I’ve seen recently where chat hasn’t had to correct the guys at least 5-10 times a game, and sometimes it’s more like 15-20 (if are looking at any errors they make.
Case in point the BR you are referencing has the objectives 3 inches closer to Brian’s Deployment zone than Adrians. That allowed Brian to take objectives in a way that prevented Adrain from even contesting without killing Brian’s custodes first. This one error probably increased Brian’s win percentage by 20-30% as it gave him an easy way to win the primary, which would have been Adrian’s win condition. I’d also say that Adrain’s list would still be better if he dropped the PM for terminators, but I think he wanted to show off deep-striking PMs.
This is a long way to say I don’t evaluate this BR as being at all relevant at gauging the strengths and weaknesses of the terminus Est strike force.
I don't think anyone watches them for "competitive WAAC lists"; I sure as hell don't. They have won tournaments in the past and/or got to top tables. I don't think they are any more wrong about what's top tier than anybody else right now.
Their messing up the rules can be kind of annoying but at least chat corrects them and they do listen to chat.
I personally don't see lots of "competitive" 40k batrep channels out. Perhaps maybe because of the world wide lock down all people can do is theorycraft. I mean, 99% of the information coming from the Tactics forum on Dakka is theory crafting. Well, maybe 80% but sure as gak there are far fewer people actually playing 40k outside of TTS than there was pre-Covid. And TTS is, IMO, even less of a metric than actual tabletop gaming but I digress.
Tabletop Titans is probably my favorite 40k batrep channel to watch on YT. Vanguard Tactics and Tabletop Tactics aren't cranking out what I call power lists either.
I love the fact they are investing heavily in their channel. New 4k streaming, new studio, better lighting. Sure they still have some sound issues but that's going to happen when you drop that kind of cash on new equipment and have to learn it.
Adrian especially shows enthusiasm for new armies. Some channels are painful to watch because the players either speak in monotones or the camera work just plain sucks. If I want tactics advice I come here; if I want to get my 40k game fix I watch batreps on youtube. I'm not worried about watching the sickest lists. Back in 8th edition any batrep involving Tau bored the gak out of me because only one Tau list worked and it was obvious what the outcome was going to be as soon as I saw the list. At least now with armies not fully optimized yet (I don't even think there is a "one list to rule them all" for Necrons yet) and new armies recently (DW and Drukhari) at least the batreps are fresh and fun to watch.
Well, they can charge their transports into combat to negate our overwatch. Don't forget that. And in the end, you can only use the overwatch strategem on one unit, if there are multiple charges you can't overwatch all of them. And given their speed, there will likely be multiple charges happening.
I think its good to have a balance. Say we managed to pop a transport. Blightlords have the dakka to take out what is in the transport at range while the flamers on deathshroud will likely be too far away.
This will be last reply about BR channels, as I don’t want to continue to derail this thread. By in large I don’t think you should trust any channel fully, as all have biases and problems. My personal favorite is Art of war, since they have multiple players on their and all of the them have had multiple tournament successes (2 different people have won LVO, and all have won multiple majors). They have an issue of locking a lot of their content behind a paywall, and their production quality is much worse than TTT, but as far as competitiveness goes, I give them the edge. Like I said I still don’t trust their viewpoint fully and think they have a white scar bias do you John Lennon doing well with them in their local meta.
I do watch Art of War as well too. They are good. Basically for me, its about watching relevant battle reports. Tabletop titans happened to feature a Terminus Est list battle report, so I watched it to see how such a list played on the tabletop.
the best "competitive factory" is play your own tournaments, you learn more playing 1 single tournament than watch 10 wh40 channels, sadly now tournaments are pretty rare
I agree, personal experience is by and far the most important.
TTT do have great quality, but they are absolutely not using top lists. I agree too many people put more weight than is deserved onto their games (in respect to the competitive meta).
After their Terminus Ex bat rep, I heard lots of people online and at my local shop say its not that good, and listed this batrep as an example.
Which is not fair, because A) The lists were not built to be as strong as possible B) Rules were played wrong C) God his psychic phase was unnaturally bad. Like he might as well not even had a psychic phase it was so useless. Such sad rolls. D)He literally just got the book, was super clear he was not comfortable with the rules/strategies.
Eitherway I wont dismiss Terminus Ex until I have a chance to try it out myself.
Terminus Est will be strong but the restrictions are so heavy-handed that you need a very specific model collection to make the very specific lists that will work well with it.
The dudes at Vanguard Tactics claimed to have played around 30 games in the past week with the new Drukhari and every game they learn something new.
I don't think anyone will ever claim Terminus Est top tier and while channels like TTT aren't pumping out WAAC lists with every battle report I think they would honestly lose viewership if every battle report was on the level of a cutthroat tournament.
They, and others (I've recently started watching Glasshammer's YT channel), provide me with 2.5-3 hours of tabletop content. I've never built armies around what's the best list and I never will. I watch batreps for entertainment, not education. I'll get all the education I need when in-person events begin again and I can play an actual game.
I have everything required to play a Terminus Est list (well, everything but the Book of Rust supplement) and I'll be for sure playing a TE force at least once, just for laughs. I don't expect to win with it but if I have fun that IMO is most important.
Playing a friendly game vs drukhari tomorrow, he wants to test the new codex and knows my army inside out whereas I really don't know what to expect. It means I don't feel too guilty tailoring my list. They're seems to be a lot of layers that I won't properly get my head around until I see it in action.
I'm thinking apart from the usual suspects of DS terms, pox, volkite Contemptor and Tallyman:
FBS with vats? I usually run him anyway but he is best when receiving charges and drukhari seem to like being on the front foot.
HBL Drone and GBD? I figure the mobility and S6/7 weaponry will help taking out transports at range and more being overwhelmed on board control.
Possessed? I haven't used them yet this edition tbh. Lots of 1D attacks to tear through puny elfs. Reasonably durable although I guess the T5 is moot with poison.
Couple of PBCs? Obviously to hit transports and to attract all those dark lances away from my Terminators.
If I can fit them in I might take some BLTs too, combi bolters seem useful against T3 squishies maybe a Reaper Autocannon?
Should I leave the plague marines at home since they are probably gonna die a little too easy...?
i would play 2x PBC and a volkite contemptor, you need to handle their transport, they are fragile when outside transports, perhaps 6-7 blighlords and 2x3 or 3x3 deathshouds full flamers, no PM play poxwalkers.
Had a close game with Drukhari today. Lost by 12 points (85 to 73). It was my first game against the new 9th ed codex Drukhari and wow, what a blood bath it was. The thing I love about DG is that its so hard to wipe out DG, so there is always something to play for, right up to turn 5.
He went first and flew up the board. I kind of wiffed in my shooting on turn 1, I took out 3 transports, but left 1 transports on 1 wound! And it took all of my shooting, so I didn't have any shooting left to go into the troops that got out of the transports. He did a really smart play. his transport was so fast it managed to charge a unit of my pox walkers in my deployment zone to prevent them from spreading the sickness. But he failed to kill that unit of 20, and I managed to rez back 7 pox walkers onto a midpoint objective. So, it prevented him from getting that.
Turn 2 was just epic. he move advanced almost everything forward and made multiple charges at me. He wiped my 20 pox walkers, a unit of 3 deathshroud, a blightspawn, and killed 3 chaos spawn. The thing is because I kind of stuck in one big blob, it wasn't easy for his whole army to get to me.
So my turn 2, I struck back with my whole army and took out Drazhar, a Succubus, a wyches unit, 10 reavers, a couple of Hellions. and a unit of Incubi,
Turn 3, He kept piling on the pressure. Killed my Malignant plaguecastor, my Contempter dreadnaught, a plague marine squad. My turn, I killed a wrack squad, two incubi units, an archon, the rest of his Hellion squad. We were just throwing punches at each other in a huge slugfest!
We then kind of talked through turn 4 and 5 because of time constraints. But there wasn't much left seriously. By turn 5 end, he would have maybe one vehicle left (assuming 2 turns of 2 PBC shooting kills one), and one incubi squad and one wrack squad, and one master succubus left on the left side of the board, and far away from my units on the right side which would be 2 PBCs, a large block of 9 Blightlords, Typhus, Tallyman, and one unit of pox walkers.
Because from turn 1, his army surged forward and covered like 4 out of 6 objectives, and he kept the pressure on. He maxed out on Primaries ) (while I could only get 35). We were quite close on secondaries (30 to 28). I might have done much better if I had picked assassinate rather than engage on all fronts (only scored 4 for that). Got 15 for grind them down and 9 VP on spread the sickness.
Anyway, it was an absolute blood bath and a super fun game and I loved it. Lost the game because of some of my own mistakes to a good Drukhari player. So I ain't even mad.
I really like DG. Plays like the fluff described in the books and like I said before. Because we are so hard to kill, there is always a game all the way up to turn 5.
I took Mortarion's Chosen sons because of the relic flamer. It was deadly, and he made sure to take out my Foul Blightspawn on turn 2 when his massed charges hit. The chaos spawn continued to do their job of absorbing fire and tanking hits. I had a unit of deathshroud, the 5 chaos spawn, with my foul blightspawn right behind them to give fight last. My 10 Blightlords were right behind them. Turns out Drukhari can give fight first, or make me fight last too ? So it all cancels out and reverts back to charger anyway. The first massed charge led by Drazhar and friends took out almost my entire front screen. Though 2 of the chaos spawn survived. The deathshroud were gone along with the blightspawn. I think the spawn only survived because he was focusing on killing off the deathshroud and blightspawn.
But because he couldn't reach my blightlord termi bloc and Typhus (screened out). I was able to throw back a huge counterpunch. I am not sure if Inexorable would have made a difference in this matchup. Because most of the time, he was on his invul saves, and his armor saves weren't great anyway. Anything my blightlord unit shot at died because of his paper thin armor and my high number of super accurate shots. Whatever I targeted and charged died, and similarly for him, whatever he charged into mostly died too. So we were really trading punches lol. Except he has quite a lot of units because many of his units are quite cheap.
The Volkite Contemptor was very good against Drukhari. First turn it did 7 wounds to a Raider. which really should have died except it rolled tons of saves like a boss. 2nd turn it killed 7 reaver jet bikes. He killed it on his turn 3, and he said in hindsight, given how deadly it is, he should have priororitised and killed it on turn 2. (He had enough dark lances to do it). Obscuring cover can only hide a dreadnaght for so long. Once it pokes it head out to kill something, it is in turn targettable as well. So, the Contemptor suffers from the problem of being a glass cannon. It dies easily. A good player knows how scary it is, and will make sure to kill it.
i would prefer revolting stench vats anyway and viscous death pathgen on blightspawn, you get str8 and average 4 hits, for the rest the list is similar of some i played, just i prefer different plague companies and usually i get a batallion (or vanguard) and a patrol so i have 2 different plague company (inexorable/mortaion anvil in most cases), vs drukari -1 ap might be not a deal but i try to test lists versatile enough to face different lists. The contemptor is not made to be durable but might hit like a truck, is survive just 2 turns can deliver decent damage and cant be ignored in any way, save some heavy fire from ds/bl that let you play the mission, i tried a list with 2 contemptors so killed one the other keep wreak havocs.
Howdy folks! I am considering undoing a mistake and replacing my Death Guard that I sold years ago. I want another crack at fun modelling and painting opportunities, but I'm curious how they will hold up on the table.
I'm thinking about running a Morty-less, pure Marine list. Big DS, max BL, and triple max PM squads. Loads of nasty bodies shuffling across the table. Tons of bodies giving me lots to paint - thinking Putrid Choir, which would be Mortarion's Anvil.
Any thoughts on this? I'm at that early build stage and haven't had a chance to play the new edition because of the pandemic. So help is greatly appreciated!
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Howdy folks! I am considering undoing a mistake and replacing my Death Guard that I sold years ago. I want another crack at fun modelling and painting opportunities, but I'm curious how they will hold up on the table.
I'm thinking about running a Morty-less, pure Marine list. Big DS, max BL, and triple max PM squads. Loads of nasty bodies shuffling across the table. Tons of bodies giving me lots to paint - thinking Putrid Choir, which would be Mortarion's Anvil.
Any thoughts on this? I'm at that early build stage and haven't had a chance to play the new edition because of the pandemic. So help is greatly appreciated!
Yeh PMs aren't particularly exciting at the moment, I certainly wouldn't go heavy on them, maybe a couple of MSUs but I'd be more inclined to fill your troop slots with poxwalkers.
You can absolutely run DG as infantry heavy right now but I would lean into terminators a lot more than PMs. Both types of terminators are great but the deathshroud are just monsters and so much fun to play. You can build a strong core of terminators that just overrun the centre of the board with the right character support (FBS, BioP, even the surgeon if you feel you can keep enough within his influence to really get the most out of him)
The recent Charadon special rules are meant to boost an infantry DG army but I'm not sure how great a bonus it gives you (I haven't tried it yet) and I feel you give up on too much good stuff otherwise
Yeah, if its just PM alone, they are not so good. But run them with enough terminators and they should be fine. Plus lets not forget about using cloud of flies on a big block of PM. So, you deploy such that the PM are an obvious "soft" target. And then you use cloud of flies for 2 CP, and the opponent now has to shoot your terminators and other stuff while he was probably positioned to shoot your PMs instead. It could totally mess up a shooting phase.
From the sounds of it, it sounds like he would like a terminus est list because he didn't mention any vehicles and he wants lots of terminators and PM.
Run one big block of PM with cloud of flies, start with tons of termi on the board. Then put the rest of the PM in deep strike along with maybe a 20 man pox walker squad. Swarm the board with bodies. Its probably won't win tournaments, but still very strong in 9th ed which is all about objectives.
Wow Drukari .., I just saw an art of war battle report. The Drukhari ran a list with only 1700+ points and still won a mean ultramarines list of 2000 points. (Both good players too).
I’ve played enough practice games to think the morty warptime list is the best competitive build option for this army. We don’t struggle to deal damage once we get close, we struggle to get close. Warptime solves this problem, and you even get deathhex as an added option.
I kinda of knew this before, but now I can confidently say this is correct.
Hmmm, I dunno. I think more competitive lists are moving towards being able to inflict a fair amount of mortal wounds. And some just run tons of melta or the quivalent. Like a sisters of battle list with tons of melta, or I saw tabletop tactics featuring a Drukhari list with 15 dark lances.
Mortarion will crash into their lines with wraptime, kill one thing. and then high chance die to the massed melta or dark lance fire. Even if he doesn't die. Most of the sisters and drulhari stuff are so cheap even if he kills one unit, it won't do much to them. And then turn 2, the massed fire will definitely kill him.
Admech with their god of mars can inflict tons of mortal wounds, and deadly shooting too. They can probably kill Mortarion in 1 turn or 2.
Some armies are auto lose against a Mortarion list. They just don't have the tools to handle him. The armies that can kill him efficiently though, will be at an advantage against him because he simply can't hide. And I am pretty sure tournaments will see sisters of battle, admech and Drukhari lists. So, I see Mortarion lists as a skewed list. You will autowin against some lists, and you will start at a hefty disadvantage against other lists.
I’d recommend playing with the list before deciding if it’s good or not. Morty having warptime is actually the biggest durability buff he can get, since you are able to position him in ways which makes him harder to attack against, but where he can still be a threat. Also the nature of the warptime list is such that having morty be an expensive distraction carnifex is a lot less problematic, as you have more threats which are pressuring your opponent immediately.
Case in point I played sisters recently. In that game I was able to position morty in such a way that only 1 of my opponents retributer squads was able to shoot him, but I could still charge that unit with a warptime. Because of this Morty was a terror this game, being able to absorb a ton of of firepower while also killing 700-800 points. In games without warptime it’s very likely I would forced to play extremely cagey with morty and/or just expect him to die in a single turn. Even when comparing this list against others that don’t use morty at all, I felt like my chances of winning against my buddies sisters army improved dramatically when I was running this list (I won my last game ).
Also in regards to that Tabletop tactics video, just like I don’t think the titans video does a good job showing how competitive a terminous est list is, I don’t think this game does a good job showing how dark lances preform against us. A) Spider had a statically unusual amount of good luck vs bone. And B) Bone was running 3x defilers, and their made out of tissue paper. Mathhammer says an obsidian rose dark lance shot from a raider averages .66666 wounds on morty (ravangers have it worse since you can only re-roll 1 wound roll for ever 3 dark lances). This doesn’t even include a Potential -1 from miasma. Dark lances don’t scare us competitively, mortal wounds and CC is what’s scary.
So TLDR, I think there’s a night and day difference between using morty in a warptime list vs not using him in a warptime list.
I think using Warptime Morty should push you towards Tj Lannigan land of Chaos Soup/Daemons. If you’re already giving up the -1t aura for not being pure Deathguard, I’m not sure there’s really a reason to select a lot of our units in a list that is trying to invest heavily in a threat like Mortarion. Things like forward deploying nurglings, immortal lord of changes, big beast of nurgle units, all of these units are amazing and would be taken in pure DG lists if it was possible.
For possible changes I’d say the 5 man blightlords are the closet unit I’d consider dropping. Either I’d keep the list as is, drop the blightlords for another 3 man deathshroud team and 10 poxwalkers, or drop the bightlords and the plaguecaster for 3 deathshroud a lord of virulence and some random upgrades. Leaning Towards what I have since. I own all the models for my current list and feel the 3rd deathshroud unit is a tad redundant (although I think DS are much better blightlords overall). I also don’t like having a second mower drone, as I’ve found the second to very unnecessary besides getting max on engage easier. Drones are fragile for their points so you need to pick their spot carefully,
Also you could spend more CP on relics and warlord traits. The only problem I have with this that this army is actually CP hungry due to the all the situational Strategems as well as the auto-pass, can’t be denied and chaos familiar stratagems from CSM (you use this on your malignant. plaguecaster) stratagem. Thankfully our good friend tallyman helps a lot with this issue, but CP is important here.
The other thing to note is this this type of list isn’t easy to master. You need to know a lot of situational stratagems and what spots they’re effective in. It takes a lot of time to memorize and learn all this, so I’d recommend lots of practice.
Brymm wrote: I think using Warptime Morty should push you towards Tj Lannigan land of Chaos Soup/Daemons. If you’re already giving up the -1t aura for not being pure Deathguard, I’m not sure there’s really a reason to select a lot of our units in a list that is trying to invest heavily in a threat like Mortarion. Things like forward deploying nurglings, immortal lord of changes, big beast of nurgle units, all of these units are amazing and would be taken in pure DG lists if it was possible.
I agree with this. If we go soup Mortarion, then why not add in a Lord of Change, demons, and possibly a Magnus as well. The playstyle suits Mortarion so much more than the DG army which is usually left in the dust while Mortarion is mixing it up up close.
Brymm wrote: I think using Warptime Morty should push you towards Tj Lannigan land of Chaos Soup/Daemons. If you’re already giving up the -1t aura for not being pure Deathguard, I’m not sure there’s really a reason to select a lot of our units in a list that is trying to invest heavily in a threat like Mortarion. Things like forward deploying nurglings, immortal lord of changes, big beast of nurgle units, all of these units are amazing and would be taken in pure DG lists if it was possible.
Yeah been having fun with with a list like that.
Spoiler:
--Command
Morty
--TS Outrider
Ahriman
Exalted Sorcer
2x Contemptor with volkrite
3x 3-man Spawns
--Demon Patrol
Exalted LoC Fluxmaster
2x 3-man nurgling
9x flamers
Against Dark Angels and Sisters with spammed multi-meltas, I usually lose either Morty or the ELoC but they usually can't handle both at the same time.
The Contemptors is ending up being a huge distraction carnifex as most opponents try to spend a turn to take them out. However, I just need a turn to get a warptimed Morty and/or ELoC in their back line. On turn 2, deepstriking flamers with fluxmaster causes all kinds of problems.
Access to Death Hex really makes this list sing.
However, the MVP in many of my games? The ELoC's Infernal Gateway power. Folks just don't really comprehend how effective that power is, especially against armies trying to bunch up together to maximize the various auras.
Brymm wrote: I think using Warptime Morty should push you towards Tj Lannigan land of Chaos Soup/Daemons. If you’re already giving up the -1t aura for not being pure Deathguard, I’m not sure there’s really a reason to select a lot of our units in a list that is trying to invest heavily in a threat like Mortarion. Things like forward deploying nurglings, immortal lord of changes, big beast of nurgle units, all of these units are amazing and would be taken in pure DG lists if it was possible.
I agree with this. If we go soup Mortarion, then why not add in a Lord of Change, demons, and possibly a Magnus as well. The playstyle suits Mortarion so much more than the DG army which is usually left in the dust while Mortarion is mixing it up up close.
You certainly could make an argument that a TJ Lanigan style of build is the better option, but that debate comes down to a lot more than “Losing contagions means going all in on soup is better.” As an heads up, the style of list I’m using actually beat Lanigan in the tournament it debut in, although luck was a factor.
You have to understand that outside of the blightlords, this list is pretty optimized. You mention the rest of the DG list not being able to to catch up with morty, but the reality is warptime allows precisely that. I’ve actually ended up warptiming my drone a fair bit turn 1 and even have used it on my deathshroud as well. In fact the whole point of this build is you are countering DG natural slowness. It’s important to note that a lot DGs power comes from the natural strength of our units, not just the -1 T aura.
Lanigans list hits harder, but I fear with the advent of DE and sisters, Ithings like magnus and big bird are less effective.
Finally I’d rather play a more DG themed army than a monster mash soup list. Sure both lists are technically soup, but at least every unit in my army has a mark of nurgle.
rest of list DONT need to keep up with morty, no matter if morty die in couple of turns, when you get hit into your lines turn1 you have to deal with it, you cant engage units that are scoring points on obj you cant move around , you have to focus on Morty right straight into your deployment zone, you need to play with/against that list and you understand. Dont forget that just death hex, kills some army lists itself. I cant tell anything about new DE, maybe you right and Morty will be not playable anymore, time will tell.
@salt donkey, I think that list looks real solid. Only change I'd make is the same one blackmage has been recommended to everyone running deathshrounds... upgrade one sergeant to have relic of glorious entropy. It basically upgrades your sergeant to be a LoC. For 1 Cp.
In fact both are
Ws 2+, S4 , T5, A5, 2+/4++, only difference is LoC has double wounds, and sergeant has a worse weapon. BUT, give him the relic reaper, and that problem goes away, and he becomes an absolute monster.
I know our lists are CP hungry, but I think this is a CP well spent.
a death hex on a WB sorcerer+tome, or if you prefer extra range on a termy TS sorcerer with familiar and +1 to cast, you cast it average at 9+/10+ with 18" range, dont forget if you have an heretica astartes detachement you unlock stratagems and you get chaos familiar, so you can use it on Mortarion too and try cast death hex with him too, so you cover the full table with your powers.
@salt donkey, I think that list looks real solid. Only change I'd make is the same one blackmage has been recommended to everyone running deathshrounds... upgrade one sergeant to have relic of glorious entropy. It basically upgrades your sergeant to be a LoC. For 1 Cp.
In fact both are
Ws 2+, S4 , T5, A5, 2+/4++, only difference is LoC has double wounds, and sergeant has a worse weapon. BUT, give him the relic reaper, and that problem goes away, and he becomes an absolute monster.
I know our lists are CP hungry, but I think this is a CP well spent.
Was sorta considering the reaper but after playtesting is decided against it. Thing is losing the sweep attacks profile is actually a serious loss, especially against this list’s harder matchups (DE, sisters, quins). The mortal wounds it brings it close, but the tiebreaker for me is the 1 CP cost. If I’m spending a CP I’d rather use it for a straight upgrade like a durability warlord trait. If your meta is full of things like dark angles and the mirror, go for it. Otherwise I’d pass.
Regarding the warlord trait 'harbinger of death' that Typhus gets in addition for being Warlord of a terminus est force -
Does he get the +1 attack for being within 3 inches of just any enemy models, or would they have to be eligible models for the aura (I.e. ld7 or less?). I just find the wording a bit odd and wanted to check what other people's readings were.
If it's just any enemy model, they might as well have just written that the warlord gets +1 attack, as to use his attacks in the first place he'd need to be within 3 inches anyway. Bringing typhus' attacks up to 7 would make him a really good package, in my opinion. Good psychic, resilience, buffing, and a beatstick.
A warlord with Harbinger of Death gets an additional Attack while it is within 3" of any enemy unit - note that, as an Aura, it can be disabled by numerous abilities, and doesn't function while performing an action.
Excellent, thanks for pointing that out. Especially if I have a mirror match against Mortarion! It's still a nice boost i think, having 7 thunderhammer-esque attacks and the occasional clutch ability to turn off obsec and actions.
Also noteworthy, even if a ld7 unit has a ld8 sergeant, the unit still suffers the penalties due to the way it's worded (you only need one model to be ld7 and it punishes the rest of the squad) Which is nice. Not saying it's competitive, but it's good flavour IMO.
Hey all. I am lucky enough that the two stores near me are beginning to run events again, meaning I have a tournament almost every other week between the stores! Now, they aren't incredibly large, with showings between 8-14 people, but the players are solid and format legit. Still, not really sure how much people on this forum care to hear about my results at these events, so I will have the tournament discussion under the spoiler. If you don't wanna read, you don't have to !
Spoiler:
That said, I ended up taking the first place win this past weekend with my deathguard! List once again constrained by models, but thank the maker at least this time I had one set of deathshrouds.
Mortarion
Chaos Sorceror, Warp Time, Prescience (-2 cp for detachment)
Mortarions Anvil Battalion (-3 cp for warlord, extra relic, and deathshrouds reaper)
Typhus
DP with Wings, Warp Insect Hive, and Gloaming Bloat contagion
20 pox
20 pox
13 pox
5 plague marines (bare)
5 plague marines (bare)
3 death shrouds, -1 CP for reaper of glorious entropy
Tallyman
Foul Blightspawn, viscous death, stench vats
2 spawn
2 spawn
Plagueburst crawler
WWSWF going to Morty, DP, and Plagueburst. I plan to take this secondary almost every game, as each one of these targets is a ginormous pain in the ass to kill. Plan to play very passive and defensive with prince, using Flash outbreak to give his contagion to other more aggressive threats, and to only engage himself against threats he knows he can handle.
Round 1: Vs Ultra Marines, w/ Gulliman, tiggy, 2 redemptors, eradicators, 15 infiltrators, and 2 dev squads loaded in a drop pod.
Lots of obscuring terrain meant I could largely keep my infantry alive, although had to play very passive with them. He pushed the left side of the table with Gully and dreads, but mortarion just went to the right side of the table and killed everything, and then went to his backline to kill his support, before finally coming back around for the dreadnoughts. He decided to go for the "ignore morty and kill everything else" strategy, except because of terrain he could not draw the lines of fire to kill everything else like he wanted. He ended up just huddled on his one left side objective while I had control of the rest of the board. Deathshrouds locked his back objective down for me, strategic reserved marines locked the right side objective, and everything else held my back objective. I ended up maxing WWSWF, getting 12 points on engage, and doing well on the mission secondary also after taking his back objective, to end the game with 80 points to his 20. I actually play this guy decently often and this was easily the most one sided game we've had. Best part of the game was a 20 man squad of poxies charging his dropped devastor squads, popping the strat and doing 7 mortal wounds, + enough normal damage to almost wipe both squads. yumm. Overall terrain made a big difference this game.
Round 2: Vs Necrons. Chronomancer, 60 Warriors, 20 immortals, some destroyers, 20+ scarabs, some other supporting elements. Rocking Obsec/double obsec on everything and 6" pregame move dynasty. Only thing missing was silent king My turn one and morty warptimed across the board to kill 20 warriors in one swing. Was pretty epic for me, less so for him. Turns out 21 attacks, hitting on 2s rerolling, wounding on 2s rerolling, ap-3 is kinda good. Then things got even better when Morty passed no joke 8/9 of the first feel no pains he had to take from the warriors and immortals firing back. butttt then he failed like everything else, and by the end of his turn 2 mortarion was dead :( At that point it became a deadly attrition war over the middle objectives, as his warriors blasted my poxies off and positioned themselves there. I would throw more poxies/plague marines/spawm/characthers at them but even when the one warrior squad died, over came the obsec scarabs to take it away from me :( Ended up being pretty close by the end of it, but once again WWSWF being king netted me 15 points and let me squeeze out a win, 72-66 I believe. Really liked Typhus/Deathshroud bomb this game, as they present a real threat that need real resources to be dealt with, resources that are thinly spread after dealing with mortarion and still trying to keep me off other objectives.
Round 3: Vs Admech. This list was based off richard Siegler's Admech I believe, and had 2 large horse squads, and 3 massive bricks of breachers to push objectives, with deepstriking 15 man squad electro priests and 4 robots to put out the damage. Also, 2 planes to act as big utility pieces through slowing movement, doing mortal wounds, and turning off auras. I decided to put 1 five man marine squad, along with 1 spawn squad in strategic reserve.
Well, this was the first time I didn't go first this event, and I hurt because of it. We took the exact same secondaries actually, since it was a 5 objective mission we both took domination and the mission secondary hoping to get on the objectives early and stay there. Well, he went first, and along with killing 40 poxwalkers, my spawn, and my chaos sorceror (horses OP), he also took the center objective. So when his turn two came around, along with killing EVERYTHING else in LoS that wasn't mortarion (leaving only tallyman, Prince, and PBC on my back obj) and before I had my second turn he scored 15 for primary, 6 for domination and 6 for the mission secondary, as they all revolved around holding the middle Obj. On my turn 2 I scored 5 for primary and none for those secondaries. Oh boy, I was starting on quite the back foot.
The good news is while everything but mortarion died, mortarion was AWESOME. My turn one (and his turn two) mortarion chewed through 2 of the 5 man bricks of breachers (due to death hex and bad FNP rolls by him), then on my turn 2 Mortarion flew over the heads of the last breacher squad and went flying into his robot squad (demolishing them in one turn of combat), before coming back for his last breachers and everything else in the final turns. Also, turn 2, my Deathshrouds/Typhus came in and assualted his back objective (thank god the deathshrouds made the charge), clearing the small vanguard squad holding it and giving me an angle to come back in the game. Essentially, turns 3-4, his priests held down one side objective, his horses, characters, and what was left of the breachers held the middle, while my DP and PBC held down my back objective, and death shrouds held down his back objective. The last side objective was contested from my reserves and his miscellaneous threats. While his early lead was monstrous, his strategy of "ignore morty and kill everything else", while working better than it did for the ultra player, still allowed morty to go absolutely ham with death hex and wipe a serious unit every turn, allowing my reinforcements to sweep up the rest.
In reality, we only ended up getting to turn 3 because of time, but then talked through and scored turn 4. He actually ended up winning in score, albiet it being a close game, I think I ended up mid 50s and him lower 60s. A bit unfortunate, as the last few turns are much more valuable for my army than the first few, and he told me if we kept going I would have for sure taken it. He is a methodical player, which causes him to take a bit longer than average at some points. Makes sense, as our turn "4" game was the latest turn he had gotten to all event . He also said next time we would play on chess clocks so I would get my full time. I didn't mind though, I had a good time playing all event and wasn't too invested by the end.
And to my surprise, the TO announced that I won since I had scored the most overall points throughout the event. This was his first event running, and although everything else was up to snuff, this decision definitely raised a few eyebrows. The admech player was really cool about it though, and said I deserved to win anyways. Neither of us are super WAAC, clearly lol.
Largest notes were:
Mortarion* is still awesome.
Deamon Prince for sure fills a different roll than I originally thought he would. First, in my playtesting with him I would throw him at the opponent expecting his damage/toughness to make him a good bruiser unit....but this really just isn't the case. His damage is good, and his survivability is ok, but my meta is too lethal and resilient for the DP to actually make a big splash on the table. My solution? Change tactics, and use the DP as a counter charge/defensive support unit. Every game I ensure his surviving to be paramount to dealing damage, and strive to score 5 VP from WWSWF. Second, I can slingshot his contagion (I love gloaming bloat so much) up the field on other, more expendable, units through flash outbreak. Finally, his bit of psychic support helped out as a piece of utility. Want to really kill something close? Give the DP deathhex. Want to make the DP go really fast and threaten the midfield even from the back objective? Give him warptime. Throughout the tournament the DP gave me 15 points off WWSWF, killed some necron gak, and in the final game he killed an admech flier (one of my only way to do so), and on the final turn warp timed himself into the opponents horses to clear them off another objective, giving a large swing in points to me. I am still not sold that the DP is really incredible, but he did feel very strong using him the way I just described, and I am glad I fit him in my list. Liked him better than a plaguecastor, thats for sure.
Tallyman was better than Foulblightspawn in this event. It actually wasn't even close. The blightspawn felt very awkward in my list, as I actually did not have many good units for him to stick with and provide assistance with the charge debuff. Most of the time he just chilled with poxwalkers. Then again, I didn't really face any large combat/aggressive armies. I have yet to run blightspawn vs blood angels, and thats the dream. In the end, I would say only bring blightspawn if you have large combat units you are walking up the board that can really use his assistance.
Tallyman, on the other hand, was great even without anyone to give his BS buff to. CP are useful man, especially in this list starting at 7, sometimes 6 CP.
*with death hex. Without deathhex/warptime, I am not sold on mortarion competitively. Ignoring invuls and moving twice are what really sell him as OP in my book. And very much worth losing the -1 T contagion.
Just picked up a Lord of Virulence simply because the shops are open again and I wanted to spend some money in GW on my lunch break. His rules seem pretty flat but was just wondering if anyone's had any luck with him. My initial thoughts are dropping him in with some Deathshroud.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Hey all. I am lucky enough that the two stores near me are beginning to run events again, meaning I have a tournament almost every other week between the stores! Now, they aren't incredibly large, with showings between 8-14 people, but the players are solid and format legit. Still, not really sure how much people on this forum care to hear about my results at these events, so I will have the tournament discussion under the spoiler. If you don't wanna read, you don't have to !
Spoiler:
That said, I ended up taking the first place win this past weekend with my deathguard! List once again constrained by models, but thank the maker at least this time I had one set of deathshrouds.
Mortarion
Chaos Sorceror, Warp Time, Prescience (-2 cp for detachment)
Mortarions Anvil Battalion (-3 cp for warlord, extra relic, and deathshrouds reaper)
Typhus
DP with Wings, Warp Insect Hive, and Gloaming Bloat contagion
20 pox
20 pox
13 pox
5 plague marines (bare)
5 plague marines (bare)
3 death shrouds, -1 CP for reaper of glorious entropy
Tallyman
Foul Blightspawn, viscous death, stench vats
2 spawn
2 spawn
Plagueburst crawler
WWSWF going to Morty, DP, and Plagueburst. I plan to take this secondary almost every game, as each one of these targets is a ginormous pain in the ass to kill. Plan to play very passive and defensive with prince, using Flash outbreak to give his contagion to other more aggressive threats, and to only engage himself against threats he knows he can handle.
Round 1: Vs Ultra Marines, w/ Gulliman, tiggy, 2 redemptors, eradicators, 15 infiltrators, and 2 dev squads loaded in a drop pod.
Lots of obscuring terrain meant I could largely keep my infantry alive, although had to play very passive with them. He pushed the left side of the table with Gully and dreads, but mortarion just went to the right side of the table and killed everything, and then went to his backline to kill his support, before finally coming back around for the dreadnoughts. He decided to go for the "ignore morty and kill everything else" strategy, except because of terrain he could not draw the lines of fire to kill everything else like he wanted. He ended up just huddled on his one left side objective while I had control of the rest of the board. Deathshrouds locked his back objective down for me, strategic reserved marines locked the right side objective, and everything else held my back objective. I ended up maxing WWSWF, getting 12 points on engage, and doing well on the mission secondary also after taking his back objective, to end the game with 80 points to his 20. I actually play this guy decently often and this was easily the most one sided game we've had. Best part of the game was a 20 man squad of poxies charging his dropped devastor squads, popping the strat and doing 7 mortal wounds, + enough normal damage to almost wipe both squads. yumm. Overall terrain made a big difference this game.
Round 2: Vs Necrons. Chronomancer, 60 Warriors, 20 immortals, some destroyers, 20+ scarabs, some other supporting elements. Rocking Obsec/double obsec on everything and 6" pregame move dynasty. Only thing missing was silent king My turn one and morty warptimed across the board to kill 20 warriors in one swing. Was pretty epic for me, less so for him. Turns out 21 attacks, hitting on 2s rerolling, wounding on 2s rerolling, ap-3 is kinda good. Then things got even better when Morty passed no joke 8/9 of the first feel no pains he had to take from the warriors and immortals firing back. butttt then he failed like everything else, and by the end of his turn 2 mortarion was dead :( At that point it became a deadly attrition war over the middle objectives, as his warriors blasted my poxies off and positioned themselves there. I would throw more poxies/plague marines/spawm/characthers at them but even when the one warrior squad died, over came the obsec scarabs to take it away from me :( Ended up being pretty close by the end of it, but once again WWSWF being king netted me 15 points and let me squeeze out a win, 72-66 I believe. Really liked Typhus/Deathshroud bomb this game, as they present a real threat that need real resources to be dealt with, resources that are thinly spread after dealing with mortarion and still trying to keep me off other objectives.
Round 3: Vs Admech. This list was based off richard Siegler's Admech I believe, and had 2 large horse squads, and 3 massive bricks of breachers to push objectives, with deepstriking 15 man squad electro priests and 4 robots to put out the damage. Also, 2 planes to act as big utility pieces through slowing movement, doing mortal wounds, and turning off auras. I decided to put 1 five man marine squad, along with 1 spawn squad in strategic reserve.
Well, this was the first time I didn't go first this event, and I hurt because of it. We took the exact same secondaries actually, since it was a 5 objective mission we both took domination and the mission secondary hoping to get on the objectives early and stay there. Well, he went first, and along with killing 40 poxwalkers, my spawn, and my chaos sorceror (horses OP), he also took the center objective. So when his turn two came around, along with killing EVERYTHING else in LoS that wasn't mortarion (leaving only tallyman, Prince, and PBC on my back obj) and before I had my second turn he scored 15 for primary, 6 for domination and 6 for the mission secondary, as they all revolved around holding the middle Obj. On my turn 2 I scored 5 for primary and none for those secondaries. Oh boy, I was starting on quite the back foot.
The good news is while everything but mortarion died, mortarion was AWESOME. My turn one (and his turn two) mortarion chewed through 2 of the 5 man bricks of breachers (due to death hex and bad FNP rolls by him), then on my turn 2 Mortarion flew over the heads of the last breacher squad and went flying into his robot squad (demolishing them in one turn of combat), before coming back for his last breachers and everything else in the final turns. Also, turn 2, my Deathshrouds/Typhus came in and assualted his back objective (thank god the deathshrouds made the charge), clearing the small vanguard squad holding it and giving me an angle to come back in the game. Essentially, turns 3-4, his priests held down one side objective, his horses, characters, and what was left of the breachers held the middle, while my DP and PBC held down my back objective, and death shrouds held down his back objective. The last side objective was contested from my reserves and his miscellaneous threats. While his early lead was monstrous, his strategy of "ignore morty and kill everything else", while working better than it did for the ultra player, still allowed morty to go absolutely ham with death hex and wipe a serious unit every turn, allowing my reinforcements to sweep up the rest.
In reality, we only ended up getting to turn 3 because of time, but then talked through and scored turn 4. He actually ended up winning in score, albiet it being a close game, I think I ended up mid 50s and him lower 60s. A bit unfortunate, as the last few turns are much more valuable for my army than the first few, and he told me if we kept going I would have for sure taken it. He is a methodical player, which causes him to take a bit longer than average at some points. Makes sense, as our turn "4" game was the latest turn he had gotten to all event . He also said next time we would play on chess clocks so I would get my full time. I didn't mind though, I had a good time playing all event and wasn't too invested by the end.
And to my surprise, the TO announced that I won since I had scored the most overall points throughout the event. This was his first event running, and although everything else was up to snuff, this decision definitely raised a few eyebrows. The admech player was really cool about it though, and said I deserved to win anyways. Neither of us are super WAAC, clearly lol.
Largest notes were:
Mortarion* is still awesome.
Deamon Prince for sure fills a different roll than I originally thought he would. First, in my playtesting with him I would throw him at the opponent expecting his damage/toughness to make him a good bruiser unit....but this really just isn't the case. His damage is good, and his survivability is ok, but my meta is too lethal and resilient for the DP to actually make a big splash on the table. My solution? Change tactics, and use the DP as a counter charge/defensive support unit. Every game I ensure his surviving to be paramount to dealing damage, and strive to score 5 VP from WWSWF. Second, I can slingshot his contagion (I love gloaming bloat so much) up the field on other, more expendable, units through flash outbreak. Finally, his bit of psychic support helped out as a piece of utility. Want to really kill something close? Give the DP deathhex. Want to make the DP go really fast and threaten the midfield even from the back objective? Give him warptime. Throughout the tournament the DP gave me 15 points off WWSWF, killed some necron gak, and in the final game he killed an admech flier (one of my only way to do so), and on the final turn warp timed himself into the opponents horses to clear them off another objective, giving a large swing in points to me. I am still not sold that the DP is really incredible, but he did feel very strong using him the way I just described, and I am glad I fit him in my list. Liked him better than a plaguecastor, thats for sure.
Tallyman was better than Foulblightspawn in this event. It actually wasn't even close. The blightspawn felt very awkward in my list, as I actually did not have many good units for him to stick with and provide assistance with the charge debuff. Most of the time he just chilled with poxwalkers. Then again, I didn't really face any large combat/aggressive armies. I have yet to run blightspawn vs blood angels, and thats the dream. In the end, I would say only bring blightspawn if you have large combat units you are walking up the board that can really use his assistance.
Tallyman, on the other hand, was great even without anyone to give his BS buff to. CP are useful man, especially in this list starting at 7, sometimes 6 CP.
*with death hex. Without deathhex/warptime, I am not sold on mortarion competitively. Ignoring invuls and moving twice are what really sell him as OP in my book. And very much worth losing the -1 T contagion.
How did you get Death Hex in your list? You don't have access to Chaos Space Marines stratagems. Also, am I misunderstanding your scoring of secondaries - you said Mortarion died, but that you scored 15 off While We Stand We Fight.
So what’s your experience/curious gut feeling about the Decimator with our modern codex? I just went through my unused model box and found extra parts to possibly make one out of a Blight-hauler core. I haven’t really seen much talk about it anywhere and am rather curious if I could combine it’s soul-burners with my Contemptor for some nasty ranged mortal wound mayhem.
It’s rather expensive and very vulnerable to meltas, but on the other hand has ridicilous damage potential to crack open some of the toughest units out there. I’m especially curious about it’s potential in mirror matches against Deathshrouds. It can also regenerate, which is always a plus.
It has other options also, but I dont see them bringing anything to the table we wouldn’t already have.
Anyway, if you have any ideas about how it could be used properly please share. I know Decimator’s not optimal, but if you were gifted one how and with what units would you use it?
i have only little experience with volkite contemptor, anyway...i would keep it as cheap as possible so 160pts with twin butcher, main problem is...he is not core so receive 0 from auras and/or abilities, volkite contemptor have a similar role but is core, shoot more and better and longer range.
you can play the decimator but it dont bring anything big on table, soulburner have only 24" and that's a big limit, it will shot at some low value stuff then it's deleted.
MinMax wrote: How did you get Death Hex in your list? You don't have access to Chaos Space Marines stratagems. Also, am I misunderstanding your scoring of secondaries - you said Mortarion died, but that you scored 15 off While We Stand We Fight.
Yea..... Well still learning evidently. Also was just typing the report up from memory, but yea I definitely did not score a full WWSWF in the necron game. Honestly I usually play with expecting Mortarion to die, but still an almost guaranteed 10 WWSWF points still makes for a great secondary. Ill say I know when we were playing the game we were both very careful with scoring, so I know I didnt bamboozle a win out of that if you were concerned.
Thought the only stipulation to gain access to stratagems was to have a detachment of the faction in your army. Auxillary support being a detachment, CSM being the faction, I thought that was all I needed. Why does Auxillery not let you use stratagems but patrol does?(sorry at work, dont have book). As mentioned above, I easily could have traded out the 13 poxies for 10 cultists and would have made practically no difference in any of my games, but still doesn't feel good I messed it up! Oops, still learning. Also on that note, since Im taking the CSM patrol, is there anything else worth considering to ally in with that? I briefly looked over the different entries in battle scribe but nothing really jumped out at me.
Does anyone here use terminator sorcerers in their army? I know that they can't deal out free mortal wounds like plaguecasters, but their ability to teleport I think would make them valuable for deepstriking in with a unit of terminators.
Why would you rarely deepstrike them? I don't see how it would be practical to march them up the board. Also, the sorcerer would be protected either by Look Out Sir by the terminators or the bodyguard ability of the deathshroud.
deathshroud take the center of the board, doing actions, its not so common you DS them, you can have look out sir but you drop close to enemy lines and is not that difficult catch a character, its not just firepower.
I like terminator sorcerer personally, the extra wound helps with perils, the better save helps him stay alive of you get caught out with your positioning or left behind by chargers.
Plus terminators look far cooler than plague casters...
So, Terminus Est could be played like a mortal wounds spam list. Any thoughts on this?
The new Fester Descipline has 2 pretty powerful mortal wound psychics. And the Contagion discipline has plague wind and Curse of the Leper. And we also have the trusty smite too. 3 castors (including Typhus ) could throw out a fair amount of mortal wounds, and this doesn't even include the other sources of mortal wounds which DG can throw out too. (pox walkers, strategems, relics and etc).
The Terminus Est list might do mortal wounds better than the plague company Wretched can. So its not just that its extremely hard to shoot a Terminus Est list off the board (because pox walkers are very cheap and efficient while Terminators are super tough). But its whether you can hang with a Terminus Est list and reduce it down sufficiently before the tons of mortal wounds decimate your army accordingly as well. Because characters are usually the last to die in a list. Especially in DG where we have so many units protecting them plus deathshroud with the body guard rule. So, once we get into mid range, its just not going to be easy to shut down all the mortal wounds that might be thrown your way.
Also, besides this consideration. There is one antitank gun that Terminus Est armies can have access to even without vehicles. The almighty melta gun. Blightlord terminators and plague marines and certain characters can all take melta or combi melta guns. We don't need to go for melta spam. But just a couple of melta guns, added to the mortal wounds the list can potentially throw out should be able to take care of the traditional targets for anti tank.
you dont need ranged anti tank if you want play terminus est army, poxwalkers, characters and ds can deal with veichles if needed, if they dont come to you, they lose with a list that play 100 poxes, moving average 10" and pile in 6" you are faster than you can ever believe, terminus est play the mission.
Quick question for everyone in general regarding Power Fists.
Do you guys typically use them on your plague marine champs? I'm trying to shave down 20 points and my two champs with their power fists are looking like the only choice for my current list.
Without going into my list and alternatives for shaving points I just wanted to hear from some of you fellas if you were even using them in most of your games?
Darkmatter wrote: Quick question for everyone in general regarding Power Fists.
Do you guys typically use them on your plague marine champs?...
Typically, no. I normally run a champ with a plasma gun and plague knife, or a bolter and plague sword if I want some melee. I try to avoid getting my Plague Marines into a dust-up with something they struggle to hurt and find a handful of power fist attacks rarely makes a difference unless I'm closing in on some tanks (and I have other units to do the damage in that case).
Darkmatter wrote: Quick question for everyone in general regarding Power Fists.
Do you guys typically use them on your plague marine champs? I'm trying to shave down 20 points and my two champs with their power fists are looking like the only choice for my current list.
Without going into my list and alternatives for shaving points I just wanted to hear from some of you fellas if you were even using them in most of your games?
I never even once had a situation where I wished a champion had a fist when he didn't have one. Unless I need to sink some point, I don't buy them.
The flail is a better 10 points spent than a power fist. Its far more likely they are fighting other infantry, calvary or beasts near the mid board objectives. Its rare that a squad of PM gets deep into opponent deployment zone where his tanks and armor are.
With so much melta being used in the game, not a lot of lists use vehicles aggressively on the midboard.
I've got my first tournament since Covid began, and find myself second guessing every thought. Can I get some thoughts on this list? My other option is to go Chaos Soup with a lot of Emperor's Children, but I just sort of feel like playing as close to true DG as possible.
Edit: So it already requires changes, as Aux Detachment won't get me Chaos Strats, making it harder to get Death-Hex where I need it, or guarantee the Word-Bearer spell goes off. Hmmm
On paper, the list looks fine. I think you need practise using such a list though. Mortarion is a big points commitment though. So, you need to know how to use him well. I think you need to practise your list against different opponents.
no need to ditch, use chaos familiar stratagem if you need death hex, overall preiscence is useful in any match, death hex sometimes is not needed, play a WB patrol not auxiliary, so you have access to heretic astartes stratagems.
I've my first game in what seems like an eternity and a day on Sunday. Cannot wait to finally try out the new codex. Just have a couple of questions for those lucky enough to have been playing through these times of Nurgle's trials and tribulations.
Any advice against Dark Eldar? I'm aware they're currently top dogs and my opponent, knowing him, will bring the biggest zeitgeist list going. I'm expecting a powered up Sucubus, etc.
I really want to keep my list mono to fully try out the codex. That said, I also really wanna try Morty, it being my first time since the codex that I've played. Now I'm aware I'm hamstringing myself by not souping in CSM but I just want to see how it goes. Has anyone any advice on playing Morty in a mono build?
lare2 wrote: I've my first game in what seems like an eternity and a day on Sunday. Cannot wait to finally try out the new codex. Just have a couple of questions for those lucky enough to have been playing through these times of Nurgle's trials and tribulations.
Any advice against Dark Eldar? I'm aware they're currently top dogs and my opponent, knowing him, will bring the biggest zeitgeist list going. I'm expecting a powered up Sucubus, etc.
I really want to keep my list mono to fully try out the codex. That said, I also really wanna try Morty, it being my first time since the codex that I've played. Now I'm aware I'm hamstringing myself by not souping in CSM but I just want to see how it goes. Has anyone any advice on playing Morty in a mono build?
Cheers in advance.
Drukhari are a tough matchup for any faction right now. They are just too cheap. They trade up too easily. Keep your forces close together. Hope he gets over confident and charges everything in. Then you can counter charge back.
I was actually thinking of playing conservatively the first couple turns until they commit, hiding and hugging the backline whilst pinging away with PBC mortar (x3). Aware they're very fast but all I read basically says that doing so will allow them to play their own game, with secondaries and primaries.
Yeh fighting drukhari is really all about blunting their alpha damage and then mopping up what's left. You need ranged anti-tank to split open the boats but killing what's inside you can do with bolters and plague knives. Your mid strength shooting is not super useful.
Deathshroud flamers will help with overwatch but be aware they have so much movement a good player will try to set up charges from out of line of site.
You will to some extent need to start off cautious and delay their charges so drones will help you get out in turn 3 onwards and start getting points back. Spitter drones will really clear up in later turns but HBLs will contribute from turn one against the boats.
You'll want the FBS to try to negate their charges but be aware they also have a few methods to make you fight last
Thanks for the pointers. I'll be running 2 FBD but I only have spitters. FBS will be coming along as well. Gonna hide him in a block of 20 pox as I'll be aiming to try out Spread the Sickness. Again, I've heard pros and cons to this but I really want to try it out for myself. They'll be in a Harbingers detachment and I like the idea of Wrathful Dead + Mutant Strain. Plus, I think having Morty and 3 PBC on the field will keep focus off the pox for a fair few turns. I'm opting for BLT over DST - I just don't get the love for the latter. I'd prefer to run both but I've only the points for one or t'other, and I just think the ability to still cause mayhem from range pips it for me.
Eldenfirefly wrote:The flail is a better 10 points spent than a power fist. Its far more likely they are fighting other infantry, calvary or beasts near the mid board objectives. Its rare that a squad of PM gets deep into opponent deployment zone where his tanks and armor are.
With so much melta being used in the game, not a lot of lists use vehicles aggressively on the midboard.
Jidmah wrote:
I never even once had a situation where I wished a champion had a fist when he didn't have one. Unless I need to sink some point, I don't buy them.
Fhanados wrote:
Typically, no. I normally run a champ with a plasma gun and plague knife, or a bolter and plague sword if I want some melee. I try to avoid getting my Plague Marines into a dust-up with something they struggle to hurt and find a handful of power fist attacks rarely makes a difference unless I'm closing in on some tanks (and I have other units to do the damage in that case).
Right on thanks for the advice. I think I just like the aesthetic of powerfists and being a 5th ed baby I kind of have a predisposition for them. But I realize that Plague Marines are simply too slow and more geared towards survivability and holding objectives than damage output and pressuring the backfield. I'm at the point where I'm already stripping down my plague marine squads of upgrades so they're basically bolter squads already.
I wonder what people think of Mortarion now that some time has passed? Still seems to me he skews battles. There will be matchups where he dominates, and other matchups where you feel like he is a 500 point liability...
Eldenfirefly wrote: I wonder what people think of Mortarion now that some time has passed? Still seems to me he skews battles. There will be matchups where he dominates, and other matchups where you feel like he is a 500 point liability...
What armies should one watch out for when field Morty and 6 bodyguards? Forgive me I'm such a newb when it comes to the tabletop these days.
Playing and testing recently really does affirm to be that Morty goes from zero to hero with the presence of allied Warp-Time and Death-Hex. I would go so far as to say competitively I would never take him without either...
1. The aforementioned Death Hex/Warptime ally
2. Possibly some allied Nurgle Daemons for Fleshy Abundance, as his wounds are disproportionately value-rich.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Playing and testing recently really does affirm to be that Morty goes from zero to hero with the presence of allied Warp-Time and Death-Hex. I would go so far as to say competitively I would never take him without either...
1. The aforementioned Death Hex/Warptime ally
2. Possibly some allied Nurgle Daemons for Fleshy Abundance, as his wounds are disproportionately value-rich.
I am really struggling with mortarion. Without the old blades and dttfe he is this amazingly resilient thing that is super killy against light infantry and tanks but he stops dead into transhuman. Most armies can kill him by turn 3 if not comfortably in turn 2 and even with warptime against decent opponents hes not getting in until turn 2. he needs 4 turns of swinging silence to be good. Everygame with him feels like he tanks the shots for 2 turns and relies on the rest of my army scoring enough to handle the swing when their army turns to target me when he dies.
How are you running warptime? I can't get my head around its 3" range. whatever casts it has to be moving with him in the movement phase and ends up ahead of the army and lookout sir doesn't trigger if morty is the only thing up ahead.
How are you running warptime? I can't get my head around its 3" range. whatever casts it has to be moving with him in the movement phase and ends up ahead of the army and lookout sir doesn't trigger if morty is the only thing up ahead.
or you use TS psycher in a patrol or you have access with heretic astartes, to chaos familiar stratagem so Morty can cast itself warptime.
For those lists that are topping competitive tournaments - what are our standard secondaries to get high scoring? Is WWSWF considered a must? If so, in a sans Morty list are 3PBC respectable? Or are they just a liability against top end lists?
Have people found success with poxwalkers and the Spread the Sickness secondary instead of Deploy Scramblers?
I'm putting a list together to play against my buddy who tends to run the latest Flavor of the month bleeding edge net list. I wouldn't be surprised to see him walk in with John Lennon's Drukhari list from Dallas GT for example (or similar). I was thinking of something along the lines of:
Not sure if the 3x PBC are good WWSWF targets? I have infantry for secondaries so I was thinking Spread the Sickness and the last secondary based on the list I'm against. Is this respectable or am I walking into a meta mistake (e.g. poison weapons / liquifier guns slaughtering my deathshroud etc.)
Also the hellblade is more 'theoretical' I feel like with all the LOS blocking terrain the odds of using it for a first turn contagion bomb is low... considering swapping for a foetid bloatdrone and moving one of the Chaos spawn to a 2x (so fast attack would be: 2x Chaos Spawn, 1x Chaos Spawn, Foetid Bloatdrone).
Drukhari are a bad matchup for DG. (I am not sure if there even is a good matchup against Drukhari. All I can say is good luck if your friend does rock up with a Drukhari list. Just play the mission as much as you can and hope that he is inexperienced in playing Drukhari such that even with its advantages, he loses to you in points.
Still going to be uphillmatch though. Just hope he didn't bring much mortal wounds stuff. Hope that his dark lances and his attacks bounce against your deathshroud and you get to counter attack. Hope that he focuses on all of your PBCs so that the rest of your army can play the mission. Hope your contemptors get good targets and eliminate enough big threats before he learns to target them and kill them quickly.
Keep your core army mostly together. You need the support and have enough assets to counter attack. If you spread yourself out too much, he will use his superior speed to focus on smaller parts and eliminate them in turn.
Hope he doesn't have a void bomber that deals tons of mortal wounds with its bomb. (or hope you get first turn and kill it first).
Hope that despite staying together, so he is probably up in points in turn 1 and 2, you can counter attack back and then start to chase up in VP in later turns.
Lots of hopes lol. But then again, they are at the top tier of armies right now. So if you win against a Drukhari list, you would have achieved something to be proud of, while even if he wins, meh... nothing he can be particularly proud of since Drukahri are top dog right now.
I guess I'm a bit lost on secondaries - if I run my list and the mission secondary isn't great - what should i be aiming for?WWSWF, domination and spread the sickness on maps with 5 objs? Swap domination for engage on 6 obj maps?
MortarionsFriend wrote: Also the hellblade is more 'theoretical' I feel like with all the LOS blocking terrain the odds of using it for a first turn contagion bomb is low...
You can't use the Hellblade to spread Contagions anyway, ever since the FAQ dropped.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Drukhari are a bad matchup for DG. (I am not sure if there even is a good matchup against Drukhari. All I can say is good luck if your friend does rock up with a Drukhari list. Just play the mission as much as you can and hope that he is inexperienced in playing Drukhari such that even with its advantages, he loses to you in points.
Still going to be uphillmatch though. Just hope he didn't bring much mortal wounds stuff. Hope that his dark lances and his attacks bounce against your deathshroud and you get to counter attack. Hope that he focuses on all of your PBCs so that the rest of your army can play the mission. Hope your contemptors get good targets and eliminate enough big threats before he learns to target them and kill them quickly.
Keep your core army mostly together. You need the support and have enough assets to counter attack. If you spread yourself out too much, he will use his superior speed to focus on smaller parts and eliminate them in turn.
Hope he doesn't have a void bomber that deals tons of mortal wounds with its bomb. (or hope you get first turn and kill it first).
Hope that despite staying together, so he is probably up in points in turn 1 and 2, you can counter attack back and then start to chase up in VP in later turns.
Lots of hopes lol. But then again, they are at the top tier of armies right now. So if you win against a Drukhari list, you would have achieved something to be proud of, while even if he wins, meh... nothing he can be particularly proud of since Drukahri are top dog right now.
So I agree that we have a sub 50% winrate against drukhari and therefore have to be considered as having a bad matchup against. But as you say, that’s more due to drukhari being OP than their strengths matching well against our weaknesses. In fact I’d actually say we do better against them than most,
Morty is a big help against them. Shutting down re-rolls and being T8 + his other natural defenses make him hard to be killed. Maybe less so against what your opponent is running since he appears to be going for a more mortal wound approach, but dark Eldar are not thousand sons when it comes to mortal wounds output. At this point me and blackmage have gone ad nauseam on the merits of warptime morty lists, so it’s up to you whether or not you think those lists are good enough.
Darkmatter wrote: SO if the deathshroud BG can't go with Morty anymore, how are they typically used?
Turn 2 pull them out and harass the enemies backfield or something?
Are they kind of just really close combat killy objective deniers now?
I have 6 currently and they're original purpose was to be Morty's fanclub but now I'm not sure how I plan to use them besides the above mentions.
They’re used as a hard hitting assault unit, like much more durable repetitia. Good that you have 6, as most competitive DG lists run 2, 3 man units (get the second flamer on the champion if you can).
Finally don’t DS them until you get comfortable using them. Most of the time they want to be fighting for the center of the board, and the 9 inch DS charge range is something you can’t trust at all. There are times you’ll want to DS them, but it’s usually wrong to unless you are getting value from the flamers.
I love my deathshrouds. Extremely deadly in close combat, and tanky as well because they are DG terminators. I almost always start them on the board. Blightlords shooting is never as conclusive as compared to a charge by Deathshroud. My latest game was with a Harlequins frozen stars list with 15 jetbikes all with haywire. But in order to try to get a bead on my PBCs, he put them in charge range of my deathshrouds. He killed one PBC, in exchange, on turn 2,I did some shooting, and then my deathshrouds charged in, and by the end of turn 2, He had 4 jetbikes left. (3 squads of 1, 1 and 2). By the end of the game, he had zero jetbikes left, and I still had 2 PBCs.
In that game, 4 Deathshroud held up an entire flank for 2 turns against a solitaire, a trope master, a unit of Harlequin troops and 5 jetbikes.(With some help from shooting of course). And by the time the 4 death shroud died, the other harlequin flank, which was attacked by a unit of 3 Deathshroud, plus some assist from some shooting, my Lord of Contagion and a plague marine squad, and 20 pox walkers got crushed. Even the flank where the 4 deathshroud had died, was left was just 2 Harlequins heroes who did not dare to venture away from obscuring because they had no more units left to give them protection.
And while my 10 man Blightlord squad sat firmly in the center objective and ensured I got domination and direct assault all 5 turns, it was the 7 deathshrouds that was key to killing the harlequin bike force and crushing its army.
With each game I played, my Deathshroud have racked up an ever increasing number of kills. In another prior game with Astra Millitarium, they mowed through dozens of infantry, combined with my 10 man blightlord squad to kill a 9 man Bullgyrn squad in close combat in one turn, killed a Tank Commander Lemon Russ and a Manticore. (They basically smashed one entire flank and pressed on right into the heart of opponent's deployment zone and wrecked his tanks as well).
In 9th edition, you usually start within 6 to 12 inches of the midboard objective. Deathshroud can be mixing it up with enemy units by turn 2 easily if they moved advanced up on turn 1.
BTW, my feedback on Inexorable warlord trait (the one that gives -1AP). It seems to rarely come up. Not sure whether its because I forget about it, or because I tend to place my Lord of Contagion warlord alongside my 10 man blightlord block. It just never seems to be that relevant. Anything within 12 inches of my LOC would be within charge range of my 10 blightlords, in which case I won't shoot them, I would charge and kill them. Anything that is worth shooting from range by my blightlords will be out of 12 inches, in which case the warlord trait doesn't matter. Flash Outbreak is 2CP. And I never use it. I just can't really justify using 2CP just to make my combi bolters -1 AP. Same for my plague guantlets. (Anything within 12 inches of my Deathshroud is probably getting charged and killed in close combat anyway). PBCs and the Foul Blightspawn flamer don't need the additional AP.
Did you guys see the new Admech vs Deathguard battle report on Art of War ? Nick took a good DG list, but wow, it got totally obliterated. So how do we handle the new 9th ed Admech Codex? Seems like anything that pokes their head out into the open from behind obscuring terrain will get obliterated by shooting.
I mean, Ironstriders were always powerful, even in their 8th ed codex. But now, wow, look at the damage their 20 man ranger squads put out ! It obliterated a whole squad of deathshroud in one shooting phase and not even all 20 rangers were firing !
He went first, used Shroud Psalm and Bulwark to give his whole army +2 to save. Moved just a little to get in better shooting positions though I was mostly still hidden. Damaged both crawlers and killed a few pox and marines.
My turn I moved out, killed 3 breachers with all the shooting I had. Breachers dont get the +1 to armour but they do get Shroud - putting them on 1+ save! Charged his infiltrators with pox, he put fight last on them and wiped then using Wrath of Mars. Charged The bots with a lucky 10" Deathshroud charge - used the Cleave attacks getting 7 through - 14 damage, pretty respectable - but the bots have gone up to 7 wounds each so it only killed 1!
Turn 2 he pops Benediction Canticle (reroll 1 hit, 1 wound and 1 damage per unit) and Protector Doctrine (+1 BS for whole army) he takes the -1 ws away from the lance dragoons.
He then shoots at 2+ with his whole army killing the bloat drne, the hauler, finishes off both crawlers, kills the 20 remaining pox walkers, 5 more PM, the daemon prince (was protected by the PM and hauler). He then charges the lances into the Deathshroud who he also puts fight last on so them and bots hit first - killing them.
So at start of my turn 2 I have Blightspawn, Putrifier, Plague caster, 4 Blightlords and the unit of 5PM that are outflanked. He has lost 1 Bot, 3 breachers and 2 or 3 little skittari dudes.
Did not bother to play any further!
To say the Ad mech book is better than what has come before is a gross understatement - this book is truly rediculous! What the hell happens if he brings a crazy build?
My deployment was not perfect but it was not awful either. We tried to analyse what I could of done differently but we could not come up with any scenario where DG win this matchup.
Have not seen the video mentioned above from AoW but will have a look!
Yeah, it really looks rough. Using canticles and strategem, Admech can get 2+ armor saves. It really makes them very hard to bring down with shooting. But they themselves are so shooty they can kill DG before we get into melee because we are slow.
I can't believe 9th edition barely made it six months before coming apart at the seams. The back-to-back-to-back of Dark Angels, Drukhari, and Ad-Mech mean that those first few books are now screwed until the circle of life comes around again.
Necron seemed decent at launch, and Death Guard was given a healthy, strong, book... and now I am back to my two favorite armies being functionally dead weight at tournaments vs. power-gamers.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I can't believe 9th edition barely made it six months before coming apart at the seams. The back-to-back-to-back of Dark Angels, Drukhari, and Ad-Mech mean that those first few books are now screwed until the circle of life comes around again.
Necron seemed decent at launch, and Death Guard was given a healthy, strong, book... and now I am back to my two favorite armies being functionally dead weight at tournaments vs. power-gamers.
Well, to be fair, Drukhari are op right now. It will probably get toned down later. Not everyone plays Drukhari or Admech too. I actually managed to face pretty competitive lists of all sorts in the past two months because of a league I participated in. If the terrain is decent, DG is great against many factions. Definitely will get in a good game. Only certain matchups like Admech and Drukhari right now are just really challenging. On Admech, I am really struggling right now to figure out what to do to handle them. Like a squad of 20 rangers can literally use wrath of mars to shoot a Deathshroud squad off the table. And this is their core infantry unit. So erm yeah, thats why I asked on this thread too. I got no idea how to handle that kind of firepower coming from core troops like that. And just like Drukhari, their T3 toughness is an illusion. They can use canticles, strategem to get 2+ armor. Imagine trying to kill twenty 8 point models with a 2+ save...
Automatically Appended Next Post: At another note, because I can't keep on thinking how to use our existing tools to fight armies like Drukhari and Admech. I think we have to acknowledge that the firepower that can be brought to bear on an exposed objective is just too high for us to be able to push a block of 4 or 5 terminators onto a midboard and be able to bully it.
Increasingly, the comnbined shooting and melee firepower of armies like Drukhari and Admech is such that we need to seriously consider cheap sacrificial pieces of our own that we can comfortably throw onto an objective and say "sure, use your awesome firepower to kill it, but then at least maybe in the process, you will now expose yourself to my counter punch".
Ordinarily, I would say a unit of 10 poxwalkers would be great for this. Except that they move 4 inches. There is no way we can easily move a unit of 10 sacificial poxwalkers onto a midboard objective easily unless we get lucky on our advance rolls.
So, I looked elsewhere in our codex and focused on our fast attack choices (because they are the fastest). And Chaos Spawn seem to be a good choice.
They have base move 7, and you would definitely advance them because they have zero shooting. They are also resilient enough such that you can't just fire a few shots at them and call it a day. You need to actually dedicate resources to kill them. Be it in melee or shooting. And best of all, they are cheap. A unit of 3 costs just 69 points. Cheaper than a squad of 5 plague marines.
Now, I chose them over our other fast attack choices, because of their cheapness. Stuff like bloat drones are simply far too expensive to be seen as sacificial unts. Throwing 130 to 135 points in a bloat drone onto a midboard objective on turn 1 just to sacrifice it for me to counter punch is just too expensive if I can use 69 points or less to do the same thing (which we can if we take 2 spawn instead of 3).
Lets take Drukahari. Turn 1, they love to stay in their transports. So, turn 1, if I advance a unit of chaos spawn onto a midboard objective. What are you going to do as a Drukhari player. If you put your raider onto the same point, I have 3 models to your one, so I still take that objective. Are you going to pile 4 raiders onto that objective? Are you going to unload a squad of your infantry turn 1 to charge me? Are you going to devote enough shooting to clear me off that point? (Shooting that then will not go into my PBC or terminators).
Basically, you either watch me take that point and maybe end up with my primaries than you, or you do stuff like shoot me off, charge me with your troops, or stack more non obsec units onto that point, which are all things that I want. Because all those things allow me to counter attack better precisely because they expose the Drukhari units that I want to hit, and in this case, we made them do it with a cheap unit rather than one of our valuable terminator units.
I think we may be forced to do the same with Admech. Shooting from a block of 20 rangers is far too lethal. And there is also all the rest of admech's units, from what has always been a super shooty faction. Whatever that pokes it head out and gets exposed risks being outight shot off the board.
But if we feed spawn units piecemeal turn by turn... well it won't win us the game, but at least it keeps us on parity. Lets say I put chaos spawn onto a midboard objective. So, now as an Admech player, you don't want to risk putting your rangers too close, you instead shoot that spawn unit off that objective. But that means neither of us now holds that objective. Next turn, I again advance a second spawn unit onto that point. Are you going to do the same thing and just shoot it off the board again? Whatever the case, it is far cheaper for me to sacrifice one spawn unit a turn on that objective as opposed to pushing a terminator unit onto that point and then see it get blown off the board on the Admech player's turn. I would far rather sacrifice 2 chaos spawn units on an objective
for 2 turns rather than sacrifice 2 terminator units per turn on an objective.
This isn't a whole list. Its just me bringing up this point of sacrificial units for discussion. I think that as more 9th codexes come out. The power creep will continue, so every faction will get more and more lethal. So, even Deathguard will need to consider sacrificial units we can use for contesting a point to allow the rest of our army to conserve its strength for the counter punch or better position for the all in (which won't be on turn 1).
ArcaneHorror wrote: Has anyone here made use of Mortarion's phosphex bombs in a game? They strike me as being a pretty solid horde killer.
Never gave it much thought, as you rarely have many targets in range and you can't throw bombs in combat. For the 1-2 targets you do have in range, deciding between bombs or the lantern is usually obvious, you just pick which one is better.
If you are planning to charge a large unit of boyz, daemons or pox walkers, bombs are great so you don't lose too many wounds to them. Against wyches, guardsmen or other units of 10, I'd rather take the latern and shoot at a nearby hard target because it's not like they are going to survive the charge.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Has anyone here made use of Mortarion's phosphex bombs in a game? They strike me as being a pretty solid horde killer.
Never gave it much thought, as you rarely have many targets in range and you can't throw bombs in combat. For the 1-2 targets you do have in range, deciding between bombs or the lantern is usually obvious, you just pick which one is better.
If you are planning to charge a large unit of boyz, daemons or pox walkers, bombs are great so you don't lose too many wounds to them. Against wyches, guardsmen or other units of 10, I'd rather take the latern and shoot at a nearby hard target because it's not like they are going to survive the charge.
Additionally, you can use the lantern to snipe characters too, so long as your first target is a valid target and that the character is lined up correctly and is in range.
I've actually used that to kill the annoying ancient apothecary in my games.
Ad-Mech has far too much shooting to make it work. They'll pop 2x Rhinos and 2x 10-Man Plague Marine squads a turn easily and from a distance. There are only so many turns where you can feed them stuff at that rate.
If people haven't seen that new Codex in action yet, I suggest checking it out. However deadly you think they are... they're far worse. The output from 160pts of their basic troops alone is unbelievable with a couple buffs and a single CP spent.
Yeah, however bad you think it is, its worse. You really can't walk terminators boldly into the center thinking they can tank it all. Even with Miasma of pestilence on a block of Terminators, they will still get blown off the board. The shooting from 20 rangers combined with strategems is just over the top good. And this is before we even consider shooting from stuff like Ironstriders. Against Admech, we have to stay behind obscuring against their most dangerous ranged weapons until we can hit them hard enough to whittle some of it down, or tie some of it in combat. They are quite capable of killing eight to ten terminators a round if we present that kind of targets to them. And no DG list can afford to lose that many terminators each round.
BTW, this is confirmed on Warhammer community. Laidraiders are going down by 20 points. Don't know if DG would use them when our PBCs are so good. But it might be worth a look.
Hey guys, for anyone interested, I made this video recently on my Chaos tactica channel:
"Interested in learning how to win with (and play against) Death Guard in competitive play? Check out Episode 10 of Warp Surge Radio, which provides a detailed look at playing Death Guard in the current meta including list analysis and match-by-match breakdowns of my recent 5-0 run at the Salty Alliance Major. I also talk about my other lists and top table matches from winning several RTTs already this season to rack up a 19 wins to 1 loss record in open-style ITC events to date. If you enjoy the content, please consider sharing and hitting the Subscribe button!"
Episode 10 Segments (Embedded in video)
0:00 Intro & Death Guard Codex/Meta Overview
12:15 Salty Alliance Major with Harbingers List Analysis
33:10 Salty Alliance Major Round 1 List & Game Analysis - Blood Angels
44:25 Salty Alliance Major Round 2 List & Game Analysis - Orks
51:23 Salty Alliance Major Round 3 List & Game Analysis - Chaos
59:50 Salty Alliance Major Round 4 List & Game Analysis - Custodes
1:09:30 Salty Alliance Major Round 5 List & Game Analysis - Orks
1:20:00 Example 1 of RTT-winning List & RTT Final Matches Analysis
1:31:40 Example 2 of RTT-winning List & RTT Final Matches Analysis
1:37:40 Concluding Thoughts on Death Guard in the Meta & Audience Q&A
So after getting completely creamed by the new Ad Mech last week and talking through how even if I played differently I would still have lost I flipantly said 'I am not sure I can win this match up with an extra 1000 points'.
Well, my opponent likes that challenge! This will enable him to try and use all his tools without (hopefully!) tableing me in 2 rounds.
I am not a power gamer but do know how to play, have attended quite a few large tourneys and we do play competitively.
We are gonna play a proper serious game with the only concessions being we picked the mission - Vital intelligence and we will be giving Ad Mech first turn so we can really see what they can do. This will affect deployment etc but it is 3000 v 2000 remember!
So Sunday night my 3000 points of DG will take on 2000 Very confident Ad Mech!
My list:
Morty - Gloaming
Daemon Prince Wings - Hulking Insect Hive
Lord of Contagion
Plaguecaster
Got my first post pandemic tourney this Saturday. My FLGS does both a 2k and 1k event but just went for the 1k option as I'm incredibly rusty. Gonna try something new with the Wretched. Never ran them yet. List below. Will let you all know how I get on.
Spoiler:
Death Guard
Total: 52 PL, 5CP, 995pts
Patrol Detachment, Incursion
Plague Company: The Wretched
HQ Death Guard Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour [6 PL, 105pts]: Lightning Claw x2
Malignant Plaguecaster [5 PL, -1CP, 95pts]: Spells - Miasma of Pestilence, Putrescent Vitality, Curse of the Leper, Strategem - Sevenfold Blessings [-1CP], Relic - The Daemon's Favour, Warlord Trait: Eater Plague
lare2 wrote: Got my first post pandemic tourney this Saturday. My FLGS does both a 2k and 1k event but just went for the 1k option as I'm incredibly rusty. Gonna try something new with the Wretched. Never ran them yet. List below. Will let you all know how I get on.
Spoiler:
Death Guard
Total: 52 PL, 5CP, 995pts
Patrol Detachment, Incursion
Plague Company: The Wretched
HQ Death Guard Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour [6 PL, 105pts]: Lightning Claw x2
Malignant Plaguecaster [5 PL, -1CP, 95pts]: Spells - Miasma of Pestilence, Putrescent Vitality, Curse of the Leper, Strategem - Sevenfold Blessings [-1CP], Relic - The Daemon's Favour, Warlord Trait: Eater Plague
Jidmah wrote: Boom! Warptime is dead for DG units. Dark Hereticus only affects targets from a <LEGION>.
Yup, but it was kind of to be expected. On the plus side, Typhus has been clarified to now be able to be taken in any plague company. You don't need to have to be Harbringers to take Typhus.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brymm wrote: New errata from the big rule book says that difficult ground modifies the movement characteristic. It seems our legion trait isn’t useless anymore!
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: The new rules as to what being "Stationary" confers is big for DG. Infantry essentially have universal fall-back-and-shoot, etc...
I thought that as first too. Then I took out my DG codex and read it properly. Under our "Inexorable Advance" rules, it states that "this unit counts as having Remained Stationary if it did not fall back or advance".
So, nope. DG infantry did not get fall back and shoot or advance and shoot. lol
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: The new rules as to what being "Stationary" confers is big for DG. Infantry essentially have universal fall-back-and-shoot, etc...
I thought that as first too. Then I took out my DG codex and read it properly. Under our "Inexorable Advance" rules, it states that "this unit counts as having Remained Stationary if it did not fall back or advance".
So, nope. DG infantry did not get fall back and shoot or advance and shoot. lol
Damn. Good catch. For a minute I dared think we got a genuine new play-style. :-p
Jidmah wrote: Boom! Warptime is dead for DG units. Dark Hereticus only affects targets from a <LEGION>.
I will not mourn it, I'm happy to see soup in all its forms go the way of the dodo. Sad times for CSM players though, multi legion lists was all that was keeping them competitive.
Well gang it is fun while it lasted . Looks like we are back to being a low-mid tier army with warptime being nerfed and ad-mech existing. You can probably win plenty in a meta with no ad-mech/ tons of unoptimizable lists, but I can’t see DG doing better than 4-2 at any serious tournament without cheating.
Oh well I’m still ok playing this army at a more casual level, and can hope legion of shadow/ the Tson codex will make Chaos as a whole viable.
Now that Dreadclaws got a bit better Drop pod assault rules, do you think there's any benefit in taking one and deep striking Virion characters to support deep striking terminators? Terminus Est list has this deep strike option at pretty steep CP cost but now you could do it with any Plague company. Deep strike in general not being as useful as before but are there any scenarios where you see yourself using Dreadclaw?
Salt donkey wrote: Well gang it is fun while it lasted . Looks like we are back to being a low-mid tier army with warptime being nerfed and ad-mech existing. You can probably win plenty in a meta with no ad-mech/ tons of unoptimizable lists, but I can’t see DG doing better than 4-2 at any serious tournament without cheating.
Oh well I’m still ok playing this army at a more casual level, and can hope legion of shadow/ the Tson codex will make Chaos as a whole viable.
There was already pure DG lists winning tournaments (even 6-0) without Morty or warptime, so that's hardly the end of the world. Although it does make me annoyed thinking back to all the "Morty is so OP!" comments we saw a few months ago that he'll now be shelved for most people again.
I still think DG can be a top/high mid tier army but will need to see how we now do against the FAQ'ed Dark Eldar and the new Ad Mech, who are clearly going to be top tier. At least the new FAQ shows that any Ad-Mech stuff that is too broken will be brought in line in 4 weeks time. But the trend of new codexs does point to DG being pushed down to a mid tier codex as time goes on. It's not all doom and gloom right now, but our future isn't bright...
This just in, we can field heretic astartes Lord of War for just 1 CP in an Aux Detachment as long as we have a heretic Astartes warlord. Our DG warlords have heretic astartes keyword.
So, yes, we can field LOWs like Lord of Skulls for just 1 CP now! Its always good to have more options like these. lol Previously, 3CP was steep. But at 1 CP ... well, its very interesting.
Eldenfirefly wrote: This just in, we can field heretic astartes Lord of War for just 1 CP in an Aux Detachment as long as we have a heretic Astartes warlord. Our DG warlords have heretic astartes keyword.
So, yes, we can field LOWs like Lord of Skulls for just 1 CP now! Its always good to have more options like these. lol Previously, 3CP was steep. But at 1 CP ... well, its very interesting.
Salt donkey wrote: Well gang it is fun while it lasted . Looks like we are back to being a low-mid tier army with warptime being nerfed and ad-mech existing. You can probably win plenty in a meta with no ad-mech/ tons of unoptimizable lists, but I can’t see DG doing better than 4-2 at any serious tournament without cheating.
Oh well I’m still ok playing this army at a more casual level, and can hope legion of shadow/ the Tson codex will make Chaos as a whole viable.
There was already pure DG lists winning tournaments (even 6-0) without Morty or warptime, so that's hardly the end of the world. Although it does make me annoyed thinking back to all the "Morty is so OP!" comments we saw a few months ago that he'll now be shelved for most people again.
I still think DG can be a top/high mid tier army but will need to see how we now do against the FAQ'ed Dark Eldar and the new Ad Mech, who are clearly going to be top tier. At least the new FAQ shows that any Ad-Mech stuff that is too broken will be brought in line in 4 weeks time. But the trend of new codexs does point to DG being pushed down to a mid tier codex as time goes on. It's not all doom and gloom right now, but our future isn't bright...
Pure DG was going 6-0 in smaller tournaments before people had a chance to adjust for us. Since drukhari came out that hasn’t been the case at all for pure builds. Obviously drukhari being nerfed helps with that, but that + is completely negated by how strong ad mech is.
One of the reason I was so high on warptime is because DG struggle most with gunline armies. Doesn’t matter how durable we are if our opponents can safety shoot us off the table using “glass cannon” range units (we sure as heck ain’t out shooting them).
This wasn’t so much of a problem back when gunline armies weren’t that powerful (so anyone who wanted to beat us had to skew in ways which hurt them in other matchups). Now that ad mech have 20 man Skitarii blender Squads and super efficient chicken walkers, this is no longer the case. I truly don’t see a way how we win against this now that warptime is off the table, and there’s still a chance that drukahri still counter us.
That isn’t to say we aren’t strong in a lot of matchups, but you can’t win a tournament when you can’t win against a meta army.
