I like spread the sickness. I think the nerf to bring it down and abhor the witch have reduced the expectation of what is a good score for each secondary. I think hoping to get 15VP for each of your secondaries is wishful thinking now.
The good thing about Spread the sickness is with a couple of cheap poxwalkers units you can pretty much guarantee a minimum of 6VP without reducing the effectiveness of any of your army. The poxwalkers are only there to stand on the objective and not die. So almost passively you can score 6VP in turn one and two. You're not neutralising an important unit by doing an action.
When your big units of PMs or terminators are depleted in later rounds, you're not so reticent to do an action with them and pick up a further 3 or even 6VP.
9VP from a secondary isn't too bad, especially when you get them from doing what you'd be doing anyway.
Deploy scramblers only nets you 10. Raise banners can only be done by squishy cultists or expensive PM units and to get decent points it needs to be done early when you most need your damage dealers dealing damage. Plus of course your banners can be taken off you...
I think the issue with spread the sickness is the "uncontested" part. There is a mission specific secondary which works very similar, and it's extremely easy for a mobile opponent to deny you to get it for anything but your home objectives.
I am starting to think that despite it being painful to lose contagions, mixing in a nurgle daemon patrol might give DG a lot more of the early board presence it is lacking.
3 nurgling units can not only put 3 scout units up the board even before battle starts, more importantly, it will prevent your opponent from move blocking you. DG wants to get onto the midboard objectives and fight on it. But given that most of our best troops are land based without the fly keyword, it is extremely easy to move block DG.
3 nurgling units up the board will go a long way towards preventing that move blocking from happening. I would much prefer to play a pure DG army, but outside of Mortarion and bloat drones, we don't have anything else that flies. Being move blocked at our starting deployment is going to hurt DG alot. Because not only does your opponent get even more turns to shoot at you, but you are not scoring even primary objectives while being move blocked.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am starting to think that despite it being painful to lose contagions, mixing in a nurgle daemon patrol might give DG a lot more of the early board presence it is lacking.
They don't lose all contagions, do they? I read it that they only lose Nurgle's Gift but they should still get Plague Company contagions.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If they're in a pure DG detachment, of course.
General plan here is to abuse flash contagion. While the unit in question won’t get both contagions, having the flexibility to pick certain units to get certain buffs is very nice. It’s a bummer that I can’t get the extra -1 AP on the blightlords, but at the very least I can use them and the DP to shut down Re-rolls and potentially nasty overwatch’s. Finally it’s quite nice that using flash contagion will buff both the DP’s and LoC contagion range.
To change this list I am thinking of dropping a deathshroud in order, to give wings to the DP, upgrade the the LoC to have a grenade + a manreaper, and change the plagueburst crawler with flamers to have cannons instead. I normally am a proponent of boys over toys, but all these changes have synergies with my list.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am starting to think that despite it being painful to lose contagions, mixing in a nurgle daemon patrol might give DG a lot more of the early board presence it is lacking.
They don't lose all contagions, do they? I read it that they only lose Nurgle's Gift but they should still get Plague Company contagions.
Plague Company contagions only spread from the model which has the trait, plus one more if you use the stratagem.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am starting to think that despite it being painful to lose contagions, mixing in a nurgle daemon patrol might give DG a lot more of the early board presence it is lacking.
3 nurgling units can not only put 3 scout units up the board even before battle starts, more importantly, it will prevent your opponent from move blocking you. DG wants to get onto the midboard objectives and fight on it. But given that most of our best troops are land based without the fly keyword, it is extremely easy to move block DG.
3 nurgling units up the board will go a long way towards preventing that move blocking from happening. I would much prefer to play a pure DG army, but outside of Mortarion and bloat drones, we don't have anything else that flies. Being move blocked at our starting deployment is going to hurt DG alot. Because not only does your opponent get even more turns to shoot at you, but you are not scoring even primary objectives while being move blocked.
Have been toying with that idea as well.
But in that case I would go for a nurgle Detachment with 1-3 x Nurglings + Warptime Jetpack Sorcerer + maybe a poxbringer if you want to.
That extra movement could be of great use for Mortarion and PM / BL.
Or go for Ahriman on disk instead in an detachment without Nurglings to get 3 easy psychic powers.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am starting to think that despite it being painful to lose contagions, mixing in a nurgle daemon patrol might give DG a lot more of the early board presence it is lacking.
They don't lose all contagions, do they? I read it that they only lose Nurgle's Gift but they should still get Plague Company contagions.
Plague Company contagions only spread from the model which has the trait, plus one more if you use the stratagem.
I think he is referring to the fact it will extend the range both their contagions abilities and only one model gains the additional <plague company> contagion.
Yeah, I was mainly referring to losing the -1 toughness contagion. In any case. I don't think people want to get up that close to DG units in the first place. So, losing the -1 Toughness contagion in order to soup in nurglings ... I think on an overall basis, we gain more from the tactical flexibility than we lose from being more lethal in close quarters.
I often felt that CSM was playing with one hand tied behind its back because we didn't have aeroplanes, we didn't have artillery that can shoot out of line of sight, we didn't have scouts, and we didn't have snipers. Or we needed to jump through hoops to somehow get these. I wouldn't complain if CSM units were more powerful to make up for this, but that's obviously not the case.
But DG has PBC as artillery, and Nurgle daemons has nurglings scouts. So, at least this elevates somewhat the disadvantages CSM used to have. Even though it means we have to soup together DG and nurgle, but at least I can now get artillery and scouts which CSM previously didn't have. Not having units with supersonic or snipers isn't quite as bad.
On a separate note, has anyone considered either 5 possessed in a Rhino or 5 plague marines with special melee weapons like flail in a Rhino. The Rhino can move advance quickly up the board. And the two units I mentioned are actually pretty scary in close combat. They will destroy most chaff and still put a hole into tougher units too. If the Rhino is on an objective, destroy the Rhino and out pops the infantry onto the objective. So thats still 10 wounds at T5 with DR you have to chew through. We don't need to have mass rhinos, but maybe one or two like that might give us some added tactical flexibility.
We have a 50% chance of going first, and going first means VP for primary objectives are counted top of turn 2. This means we literally need to get onto the primary midboard objectives on Turn 1. If we are relying on our infantry to do it, we could be just one bad advance roll away from not being able to get onto the midboard primary objective turn 1. (And this doesn't even factor in if we get move blocked).
Heavy Support: 2
Plagueburst Crawler 175pts
Entropy Cannons
Plagueburst Crawler 175pts
Entropy Cannons
LoC deepstrikes in with Deathshrouds. Tallyman and Plague Surgeon buff a unit of Plague Marines. Poxwalkers screen Plagueburst Crawlers. Drones and Blighthauler engage forward enemy units. I'm not completely sold on the solo Blighthauler. Might be worth dropping it and something else to get a 3rd Crawler or a 3rd Bloat Drone with Mower. Since I'm running so many vehicles I'm wondering about using a winged daemon prince and switching to the Inexorable or possibly Poxmomgers for vehicle buffing.
As far as the “bringing Nurglings is worth breaking mono-deathguard” discussion goes, I have to say I’m torn. Certainly gaining the center of the board quickly is extremely valuable, but a -1 T aura might worth giving this up. The thing is, I do believe that this effect will be very relevant in a lot of matchups. Since we have no great obsec, being able to killing opposing units in 1 turn becomes a lot more important. Contagions go a long way to making this happen, so I don’t love the idea of giving it up, even for nurglings.
Also as just posted a list like this, I have to bring up that we do get some synergy for taking 2 deathguard detachments. I don’t think most deathguard soup lists (that aren’t just morty) are going to want to bring more than 2 detachments, so mono-deathguard still grant flexibility bonuses that good soup lists won’t have.
l0k1 wrote: Hey guys, I'm going to be playing a 2k game Sunday(most likely against blood angels)
If you're probably going to be playing against Blood Angels, bring a Foul Blightspawn with Revolting Stench-Vats. It's insanely brutal against them - completely negates all of their bonuses.
l0k1 wrote: Hey guys, I'm going to be playing a 2k game Sunday(most likely against blood angels)
If you're probably going to be playing against Blood Angels, bring a Foul Blightspawn with Revolting Stench-Vats. It's insanely brutal against them - completely negates all of their bonuses.
Agreed. In a ferryman detachment you can drop a CP each turn to extend that aura out to 12". That's neutralising their +1 to wound and all those extra attacks for black rage, hateful assault etc across 24" of your lines. Be aware they will get their bonuses if you charge them though so in some cases you might actually be better off taking the charge from them then hitting them back.
l0k1 wrote: Hey guys, I'm going to be playing a 2k game Sunday(most likely against blood angels)
If you're probably going to be playing against Blood Angels, bring a Foul Blightspawn with Revolting Stench-Vats. It's insanely brutal against them - completely negates all of their bonuses.
Agreed. In a ferryman detachment you can drop a CP each turn to extend that aura out to 12". That's neutralising their +1 to wound and all those extra attacks for black rage, hateful assault etc across 24" of your lines. Be aware they will get their bonuses if you charge them though so in some cases you might actually be better off taking the charge from them then hitting them back.
Hmmm strong points. Perhaps I'll drop the Blighthauler for the Blightspawn with Stench Vats and throw the extra points into adding more bodies to one of the units of Plague Marines.
I'm starting a small DG force since I got a really good deal, and wanted to know what peoples opinions are. I'm leaning toward the LoC, but I would like to hear more experienced DG players on these.
Everytime I build a list now the LoC inevitably gets chosen. It's weird. For me he's went from nothing to pretty much my first choice for a lord and has even superceded a Prince.
Personally, I see the LoV as just a new weapons option to replace the reaper with dual plague spitters that has a silly stratagem to blow up harlequin troupes.
With so many characters (tallyman, plague surgeon, blightspawn, HQs) I feel it's almost necessary to burn 2-4 CP in a 2k game for gifts of decay and extra warlord traits. At first I was skeptical blowing 1/3 of my CP before the game begins, but I play Alpha Legion and use 3 CP for Forward Operatives every game plus with Tallyman's ability activating on both players command phases I don't think CP will be a problem. Thoughts?
If you've got a tallyman, I reckon you are all good. If not, I'm often skeptical about the value of these traits. Especially on slow moving models. Unless they are Veil of Darkness level of game changing.
Umbros wrote: If you've got a tallyman, I reckon you are all good. If not, I'm often skeptical about the value of these traits. Especially on slow moving models. Unless they are Veil of Darkness level of game changing.
Well I was thinking 2 CP for relics + 1 free one gives Plague Surgeon, Tallyman, and Blightspawn their specific relics. As for warlord traits, giving Arch Contaminator to a LoC, a Contagion trait to one of the other characters(maybe Plaguecaster for the strat that buff range and give the contagion to another model), and another trait to one of the characters for fun.
The Internet certainly seems fond of the LoC - but I'd like to understand why. Is it synergy with say flash outbreak? I guess its a source of 3 damage attacks that you can't easily get elsewhere. It just seems to me the LoV at least has the double heavy flamer to (hopefully) do some work without being at the mercy of long charge rolls.
I think Daemon Princes are in this odd place because wings make them expensive but the idea of not taking them feels very alien. I'd be interested to see if people experiment without the wings as its another source of 3 damage - and 6 attacks hitting on 2s should be more consistent than 5 attacks hitting on 3s (even if plague weapon rerolls to wound can mitigate this.) Throw in a psychic power and it seems a reasonable choice.
Basic plan is the tallyman hangs back in a bubble with the Contemptor and rapier for the subject hits on 6s on high rate of fire weaponry. Will probably keep the entropy PBC back as well, especially if there's two home objectives.
The two FBDs run off on their own to cause carnage.
Poxies hopefully fly under the radar long enough to spread contagion on at least three objectives.
DP, Caster, Blightspawn, PMs, Termis and the spitter PBC apply forward pressure in the centre of the board and hopefully stand up to a space wolf charge and then counter. I can extend our the blightspawn aura to hopefully neuter a lot of the charge impact of things like thunderwolf cavalry and then smash them back.
Spawn go wherever they are needed really.
I'm hoping i I have enough presence in the army to hold 2/3 objectives all game. I feel a little thin on the ground but I've got some big toys in the army. Is it maybe too many? Should I be gearing up for more bodies to resist the space wolf assault?
Tyel wrote: The Internet certainly seems fond of the LoC - but I'd like to understand why. Is it synergy with say flash outbreak? I guess its a source of 3 damage attacks that you can't easily get elsewhere. It just seems to me the LoV at least has the double heavy flamer to (hopefully) do some work without being at the mercy of long charge rolls.
Well, the manreaper allows you to massacre stuff like harlequins, orks or daemons, while the plague reaper has been upgraded into a better thunderhammer that wounds pretty much every vehicles in the game on 3s and gravis or bikes ons 2s with re-rolls, with no less than 5 attacks. Either way you have a powerful counter-charge unit that can seriously mess up anything that wants to fight with whatever unit he is buffing.
I think Daemon Princes are in this odd place because wings make them expensive but the idea of not taking them feels very alien. I'd be interested to see if people experiment without the wings as its another source of 3 damage - and 6 attacks hitting on 2s should be more consistent than 5 attacks hitting on 3s (even if plague weapon rerolls to wound can mitigate this.) Throw in a psychic power and it seems a reasonable choice.
Honestly, having a 4++ in combat is more valuable than than the psychic power since blades is gone. If you want more attacks, you can just drop the explosive outbreak pathogen on the LoC.
Mortal wounds list?
After reading up on the leaks for Dark Angels, durability seems like it’s going to be something most lists plan for. Additionally, they have basically Transhuman army wide. A -1 toughness aura and adding to wound and rerolling are all basically moot against transhuman.
That got me thinking, mortals bypass both transhuman and the 4+ jink from Ravenwing.
What’s a good list composition to maximize mortals?
I’ve been trying to make Typhus/poxwalkers work with a Wretched detachment to get as much pestilential fallout as possible but am having a tough time getting the correct warlord traits and auras where I need them.
Any ideas?
So how do you guys rank the new Plague companies? My order of ranking is below:
1) The Inexorable because-1 AP is good in almost every situation in both melee and shooting phases (increase to offense)
2) Mortarian’s Anvil because the aura of no rerolls is really powerful against some units a d combos. It some instances it can really improve your survival (increease to defense)
3) The Ferrymen on paper halving enemy movement is huge. It is very powerful when it works, but will happen less often. However, the droning strategem is very powerful allowing 12” auras (increase in utility)
All the others are meh depending on if you want more offense, defense, or utility you will likely choose the above plague companies. There is some interesting options with Mortarian’s Chosen Sons strategem, but I don’t think it makes up for the above losses.
Mortarion's Anvil is strongest in my opinion. That aura of no rerolls is super good. And the strategem to heroically intervene 3 inches with any unit is amazing too.
How do you rank the foetid virion? They have really seen a massive improvement across the board and I wish I could have them all in my lists. So I have decided to rank them below:
1) The Tallyman. No matter what you play style is the Tallyman’s seven fold chant is useful and likely will give you 4-5 extra CP a game and helps off the CP cost of being forced to buy multiple detachments to run more than one “Lord”. The +1 to hit is just the cherry on top. An auto include he is just that good. (Utility)
2) The Foul Blightspawn. Against other melee armies this model can absolutely crush their game plan. When he takes the stench-vats his ability to take away all charge bonuses against armies like blood angles, white scars, etc is crippling. His plague sprayer just adds insult to injury. (Defensive)
3) Plague Surgeon the ability to give units a 6+++ can really start to add up. Additionally, the ability to heal models such as the LoC can really make your HQs more durable. What really makes him interesting is using Fulgrim’s Helm and The Droning Strategem. If you run him it makes sense to always give him the Arch-Contaminator or Living Plague Warlord traits. (Defensive)
4) Biologus Putrifier. His ability to make 6s to wound on a single unit can really wrack up some serious damage on unit such as Deathshroud sweeping attacks. Additionally, blight racks when paired with the grenade strategem can do some significant damage. Overall, he can really boost damage output on a unit, but his small radius of “6 is why I don’t put him higher. He is good, but at times struggles to make the cut above the 1-3 choices. (Offense)
5) Noxious Blightbringer. Movement is always an issue with DG infantry. Gaining +1 movement can add up during a game. Regrettably his movement aura only gives +1 regardless if you normal move or run. His other auras to impact enemy morale and combat attrition tests really won’t come up as often as you would like with all the armies that ignore modifiers. If you wanted to build around this it could be very good against some opponents. (Utility)
Tyel wrote: The Internet certainly seems fond of the LoC - but I'd like to understand why. Is it synergy with say flash outbreak? I guess its a source of 3 damage attacks that you can't easily get elsewhere. It just seems to me the LoV at least has the double heavy flamer to (hopefully) do some work without being at the mercy of long charge rolls.
I think Daemon Princes are in this odd place because wings make them expensive but the idea of not taking them feels very alien. I'd be interested to see if people experiment without the wings as its another source of 3 damage - and 6 attacks hitting on 2s should be more consistent than 5 attacks hitting on 3s (even if plague weapon rerolls to wound can mitigate this.) Throw in a psychic power and it seems a reasonable choice.
simple his ability work only on CORE with PLAGUE weapons so basically work only on deathshrouds, no real reasons to add him, beside his wepon+patogen and mortarion choosed sons company.
Tyel wrote: The Internet certainly seems fond of the LoC - but I'd like to understand why. Is it synergy with say flash outbreak? I guess its a source of 3 damage attacks that you can't easily get elsewhere. It just seems to me the LoV at least has the double heavy flamer to (hopefully) do some work without being at the mercy of long charge rolls.
Well, the manreaper allows you to massacre stuff like harlequins, orks or daemons, while the plague reaper has been upgraded into a better thunderhammer that wounds pretty much every vehicles in the game on 3s and gravis or bikes ons 2s with re-rolls, with no less than 5 attacks. Either way you have a powerful counter-charge unit that can seriously mess up anything that wants to fight with whatever unit he is buffing.
I think Daemon Princes are in this odd place because wings make them expensive but the idea of not taking them feels very alien. I'd be interested to see if people experiment without the wings as its another source of 3 damage - and 6 attacks hitting on 2s should be more consistent than 5 attacks hitting on 3s (even if plague weapon rerolls to wound can mitigate this.) Throw in a psychic power and it seems a reasonable choice.
Honestly, having a 4++ in combat is more valuable than than the psychic power since blades is gone. If you want more attacks, you can just drop the explosive outbreak pathogen on the LoC.
agree in my tests i always found LOC better
Automatically Appended Next Post:
5) Noxious Blightbringer. Movement is always an issue with DG infantry. Gaining +1 movement can add up during a game. Regrettably his movement aura only gives +1 regardless if you normal move or run. His other auras to impact enemy morale and combat attrition tests really won’t come up as often as you would like with all the armies that ignore modifiers. If you wanted to build around this it could be very good against some opponents. (Utility)
remember anyway his relic...2+ and unit at 6" cant fall back. Is not so useless.
How are people equipping their plague Marines now since you can't double up on weapons until you're at 10? Cheap or going for a mix of firepower?
Blight Launcher drones seem pretty darn good choices while Plague Spewers seem to be pretty bad. Fleshmower seems good as well.
Are people taking multiple detachments now to include more than one Lord? Speaking of, how is the Lord of Virulence? I have one on backorder because it's a cool model but how are people using him?
Wayniac wrote: How are people equipping their plague Marines now since you can't double up on weapons until you're at 10? Cheap or going for a mix of firepower?
Blight Launcher drones seem pretty darn good choices while Plague Spewers seem to be pretty bad. Fleshmower seems good as well.
Are people taking multiple detachments now to include more than one Lord? Speaking of, how is the Lord of Virulence? I have one on backorder because it's a cool model but how are people using him?
I prefer Plas/plas/launcher, 3 special weapons in 5 men unit is still a good ratio.
A full-equipped 10 men squad is somehow...overcosted. More expensive than 6 BLords, but dont have the same threat level as 6 Blords.
Wayniac wrote: How are people equipping their plague Marines now since you can't double up on weapons until you're at 10? Cheap or going for a mix of firepower?
Blight Launcher drones seem pretty darn good choices while Plague Spewers seem to be pretty bad. Fleshmower seems good as well.
Are people taking multiple detachments now to include more than one Lord? Speaking of, how is the Lord of Virulence? I have one on backorder because it's a cool model but how are people using him?
I prefer Plas/plas/launcher, 3 special weapons in 5 men unit is still a good ratio.
A full-equipped 10 men squad is somehow...overcosted. More expensive than 6 BLords, but dont have the same threat level as 6 Blords.
I was thinking of Plas/Plas/Launcher myself. I read somewhere, I forget where, of taking a squad or two with one melta, one launcher, one flail, one cleaver and plas (on champ) and putting them in a Dreadclaw. It sounded odd but the person saying it worked like really hyped it up, saying how they were undefeated in local games with two squads there and a few extras. The weapon mix seemed really odd though.
Brymm wrote: Mortal wounds list?
After reading up on the leaks for Dark Angels, durability seems like it’s going to be something most lists plan for. Additionally, they have basically Transhuman army wide. A -1 toughness aura and adding to wound and rerolling are all basically moot against transhuman.
That got me thinking, mortals bypass both transhuman and the 4+ jink from Ravenwing.
What’s a good list composition to maximize mortals?
I’ve been trying to make Typhus/poxwalkers work with a Wretched detachment to get as much pestilential fallout as possible but am having a tough time getting the correct warlord traits and auras where I need them.
Any ideas?
Don't know about having Typhus but my wretched army shall have quite a bit of MW output with a plague caster with the Wretched relic, mutant strain on Poxwalkers, a few FW dreads with Volkite (Contemptors still have Core so can actually benefit from alot of the rules and stragems like Haze of Corruption)
I tried out the vulkite Contemptor with the tallyman/tollkeeper last night. It was decent but it got me thinking how much that was down to the tallyman? First turn I put his tally ability on the Contemptor but after that I tended to put it on my Blightlords since it helps them in both shooting and melee. The Contemptor still enjoyed double hits on 6s for the majority of the game but i started to wonder how affective that really was.
To be honest I'm really not that sure about some of the foetid virions so I'm interested to hear people's thoughts. The issue is they are largely just pure buffing characters that don't offer a lot themselves and I'm started to wonder if spending their equivalent costs on more models isn't better value.
TALLYMAN
With the relic he is throwing out what amounts to a 16% shooting output boost to core units in 6" and a further 16% shooting and melee on one unit. In practical terms, unless building a list to really maximise it, that's probably hitting a couple of units of PMs and a unit of BL Terminators.
The 16% boost is equivalent to an extra model in a 6 man unit. So a tallyman is providing the damage output of 2PMs and a BL Termi which would cost 82pts and provide extra bodies, more durability and melee threat. Is that worth 70pts and a relic?
PLAGUE SURGEON
He provides what amounts to a 20% boost in wounds. Again using two units of PMs and unit of BLs, that's a 75pt model giving the equivalent wounds of 82pts but with no damage output. He does heal D3 so he does have a little more value but I'm thinking I'd rather have the extra models?
FOUL BLIGHTSPAWN
He has a nice gun and is probably the hardest to evaluate. Both his built in ability and his relic aura are very strong. I'm gonna need to practice more with him to maximise his abilities but I'm finding the 3" fight last ability very difficult to actually pull off. The same ability on a SM judiciar is on a bit of a melee beast who wants to be in combat and has the 4++ durability to survive.
The blightspawn isn't easy to navigate into within 3" of a melee target without getting tagged himself and dying pretty rapidly due to zero melee output and no invulnerable save. I'd be interested in hearing people's advice on using this guy affectively because I feel like he should be awesome but I'm struggling.
FOUL BLIGHTSPAWN
He has a nice gun and is probably the hardest to evaluate. Both his built in ability and his relic aura are very strong. I'm gonna need to practice more with him to maximise his abilities but I'm finding the 3" fight last ability very difficult to actually pull off. The same ability on a SM judiciar is on a bit of a melee beast who wants to be in combat and has the 4++ durability to survive.
The blightspawn isn't easy to navigate into within 3" of a melee target without getting tagged himself and dying pretty rapidly due to zero melee output and no invulnerable save. I'd be interested in hearing people's advice on using this guy affectively because I feel like he should be awesome but I'm struggling.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/31 11:18:57
FOUL BLIGHTSPAWN
He has a nice gun and is probably the hardest to evaluate. Both his built in ability and his relic aura are very strong. I'm gonna need to practice more with him to maximise his abilities but I'm finding the 3" fight last ability very difficult to actually pull off. The same ability on a SM judiciar is on a bit of a melee beast who wants to be in combat and has the 4++ durability to survive.
The blightspawn isn't easy to navigate into within 3" of a melee target without getting tagged himself and dying pretty rapidly due to zero melee output and no invulnerable save. I'd be interested in hearing people's advice on using this guy affectively because I feel like he should be awesome but I'm struggling.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/31 11:18:57
use the relic revolting stench vats
The relic aura doesn't help you if you charge, it's only useful when being charged and then it's on your opponents terms.
I played a space wolves list the other night with a wolf lord and the armour of Russ and he was able to completely dictate the terms of the fight phase despite an inferior ability just because of the mobility and durability of the wolf lord plus the fact he can actually contribute to the fight himself.
Abaddon303 wrote: TALLYMAN
With the relic he is throwing out what amounts to a 16% shooting output boost to core units in 6" and a further 16% shooting and melee on one unit. In practical terms, unless building a list to really maximise it, that's probably hitting a couple of units of PMs and a unit of BL Terminators.
The 16% boost is equivalent to an extra model in a 6 man unit. So a tallyman is providing the damage output of 2PMs and a BL Termi which would cost 82pts and provide extra bodies, more durability and melee threat. Is that worth 70pts and a relic?
I've certainly swung from "the Tallyman relic is an autotake" to "you never effect enough to be worthwhile."
But I think you are missing the fact the Tallyman is hopefully giving you CP throughout the game. Quite what say 3 CP is worth can be debated - but at a stretch you could argue that pays for itself even before you factor in any buffs.
But yeah - both he and the Plague Surgeon I think really shine if you are marching blobs of BL/PM up the table - so they can apply their buffs to at least 500 or so worth of points. If you are taking 3 units of Deathshrouds that you intend to DS in, and that's essentially your only Core, then its unclear these guys are worth it. Or are certainly not auto-takes in any case. (Although as said, the Tallyman may be worthwhile just to hide on some objectives and generate you CP.)
With the Blightspawn it does seem like you take Stench Vats or don't bother. Again I think you can use them nestled right behind a unit of Terminators - but 3" can be danced around.
Abaddon303 wrote: I tried out the vulkite Contemptor with the tallyman/tollkeeper last night. It was decent but it got me thinking how much that was down to the tallyman? First turn I put his tally ability on the Contemptor but after that I tended to put it on my Blightlords since it helps them in both shooting and melee. The Contemptor still enjoyed double hits on 6s for the majority of the game but i started to wonder how affective that really was.
To be honest I'm really not that sure about some of the foetid virions so I'm interested to hear people's thoughts. The issue is they are largely just pure buffing characters that don't offer a lot themselves and I'm started to wonder if spending their equivalent costs on more models isn't better value.
TALLYMAN
With the relic he is throwing out what amounts to a 16% shooting output boost to core units in 6" and a further 16% shooting and melee on one unit. In practical terms, unless building a list to really maximise it, that's probably hitting a couple of units of PMs and a unit of BL Terminators.
The 16% boost is equivalent to an extra model in a 6 man unit. So a tallyman is providing the damage output of 2PMs and a BL Termi which would cost 82pts and provide extra bodies, more durability and melee threat. Is that worth 70pts and a relic?
PLAGUE SURGEON
He provides what amounts to a 20% boost in wounds. Again using two units of PMs and unit of BLs, that's a 75pt model giving the equivalent wounds of 82pts but with no damage output. He does heal D3 so he does have a little more value but I'm thinking I'd rather have the extra models?
FOUL BLIGHTSPAWN
He has a nice gun and is probably the hardest to evaluate. Both his built in ability and his relic aura are very strong. I'm gonna need to practice more with him to maximise his abilities but I'm finding the 3" fight last ability very difficult to actually pull off. The same ability on a SM judiciar is on a bit of a melee beast who wants to be in combat and has the 4++ durability to survive.
The blightspawn isn't easy to navigate into within 3" of a melee target without getting tagged himself and dying pretty rapidly due to zero melee output and no invulnerable save. I'd be interested in hearing people's advice on using this guy affectively because I feel like he should be awesome but I'm struggling.
Tallyman has about 83% chance to generate 1CP per game round. Place him carefully and you would easily receive 3-4 CP.
If tallyman "don't worth his cost", then NO unit in this codex could worth its cost.
Exactly I could care less about that about the Tallyman’s ability to buff shooting. DG suck at shooting overall. I take it for the 4-5 free CP. it is honestly an auto include for me. The buff to shooting and combat is just a cherry on top.
The plague surgeon is only worth it if you take large blocks of terminators in my opinion. If you take Mortarian he likely shouldn’t be in your list.
The foul blightspawn with his relic is SO SO powerful against some melee armies it is hard not to take. If you face a gunline isn’t going to give much to your list.
I can't argue with the value of the CP generation of the Tallyman. Perhaps I should have taken that more into account in my summary. I was more analysing the value of the relic, however I suppose if you consider the Tallyman is an autotake based on his CPgen, then the relic really has almost zero opportunity cost.
I definitely think the Tallyman is my favourite of the lot.
I am going to persevere with the Blightspawn for now as I think I just need to get better at driving him
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: How does Tallyman have an 83% chance? Isn't it a 7+ on 2d6? That's 50%.
It's done at the start of "the Command phase", so you get to try in both your phase & your opponent's AFAIK, because each round has 2 turns, and each turn has a command phase
Until they FAQ it to "start of your own command phase".
Would be fantastic if it was actually intentional, but I'll still take him if they FAQ it as it's still 2-3 CP if you keep him alive 5 turns.
In 40K they value CP at 20pts each. Right now the Tallyman is very strong.
I struggle to decide if the surgeon is worth it honestly. Sometime I would rather just have the extra points for more models. I mean if you run 10 Blightlords I’ve nets you 5 extra wounds. Plus he can heal. So let’s just say in all it gains you 9 extra wounds (maybe). If you add in his cost together and give him the helm (as above valued at 20pts) he costs 95pts or the same cost as a plague caster. He seems to only be worth it if you run LOTs of infantry, can use the droning to extend his aura out to 12”, and you gain some resiliency but will lost offensive damage as if you had more models on the table.
So I am torn. So far my 2 auto includes are the Tallyman (unless he is nerfed) and blightspawn which have massive impacts to the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What I am really curious to see someone do the math is comparing 20 PM with 4 flails (450pts) to 10 Blightlords with 2 flails (420pts). I know the PMs will have more damage output especially if using the trench fighters strategem. Also close of flies for a unit is much more efficient and the ability to be in multiple locations at once.
I’m curious if the PM are both more resilient and more damage output and if so how much.
20 PMs all in one unit and 10BLs all in one unit? I could not justify either at that size. But in that vacuum, i do think if PMs struck first and were able to infiltrate with plague bolters and trench fighters they would wreck face.
Don't forget one additional benefit for a squad of 10 PM vs terminators. You can throw cloud of flies for 2CP onto a squad of 10 PM and it likely can't be shot at as long as you have other stuff nearer to the opponent units on the board. (nurglings, FBD, poxwalkers, etc). But the same strategem costs 4CP to put on Terminators are that is just too steep.
You could put put 2 blight launchers and 3 plasma guns on a squad of 10 PM. Hide it behind obscuring turn 1, turn 2, walk out, and unload with all guns, then slap on 2CP, make it untargetable, then turn 3, talk forward, fire all guns again and then charge into melee.
Making something flat out untargettable sounds better to me than being a solid brick but that means you still have to weather the shooting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ineedvc2500 wrote: 20 PMs all in one unit and 10BLs all in one unit? I could not justify either at that size. But in that vacuum, i do think if PMs struck first and were able to infiltrate with plague bolters and trench fighters they would wreck face.
What I am really curious to see someone do the math is comparing 20 PM with 4 flails (450pts) to 10 Blightlords with 2 flails (420pts). I know the PMs will have more damage output especially if using the trench fighters strategem. Also close of flies for a unit is much more efficient and the ability to be in multiple locations at once.
I’m curious if the PM are both more resilient and more damage output and if so how much.
Not easy to succinctly compare them because different weapon profiles have different efficiencies for killing either but here's how many shots it would take to kill them with some common anti elite weapons:
10 BLs v 20 PMs
PMs 540 Bolters
240 H.Bolters
144 Grav
45 H.Plasma Incinerators
45 Meltas in melta range
BLs 810 Bolters
270 H.Bolters
180 Grav
45 H.Plasma Incinerators
45 Meltas in melta range
Kind of what i suspected that the BLs are generally more robust. Will see about trying to compare damage output tomorrow maybe.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: How does Tallyman have an 83% chance? Isn't it a 7+ on 2d6? That's 50%.
It's done at the start of "the Command phase", so you get to try in both your phase & your opponent's AFAIK, because each round has 2 turns, and each turn has a command phase
Got it. That seems so unintentional my brain clearly ignored it. That would be FAAAAAAAAR too good.
there is really nothing that Pm do better than Bl and for troops you have far cheaper and effective choice...poxwalkers. Maybe just play a cheap squad to get some backfield obj, protected by cloud if needed.
About blightspwan....pure gunlines WONT work in 9th, opponent must come to you if want try to win, he is a strong option, the relic+viscous death for me.
A basic squad of PM actually has a fair amount of melee ability because of plague knives and strategems like trench fighters. Add just 10 points for a flail of corruption or a power fist or a great cleaver and you have something that only dedicated melee units can beat.
PM is a 5-10 men unit, no longer 5-20. So when you give buffs(psychic, strat) to a full PM unit, 200+pts of your army is boosted. When the buffs given to BL unit, 400+pts could be boosted.
Even with the changes with restrictions I'll still be running squads of seven what's a better choice of plague weapon Plague Spewer or Blight launcher? 7 man squad with plasmagun, icon and champ with powerfist and plasmagun though I could always swap out the fist for a flail. Thinking short ranged but still able to deal damage in close combat so wonder if a spewer or blight launcher would be best. Army is mostly long ranged walkers like helbrutes and defilers supporting infantry
plagueknight wrote: Even with the changes with restrictions I'll still be running squads of seven what's a better choice of plague weapon Plague Spewer or Blight launcher? 7 man squad with plasmagun, icon and champ with powerfist and plasmagun though I could always swap out the fist for a flail. Thinking short ranged but still able to deal damage in close combat so wonder if a spewer or blight launcher would be best. Army is mostly long ranged walkers like helbrutes and defilers supporting infantry
Blight Launchers over Plague Spewers for PMs, without a doubt.
Tracking that you can’t take PM in squads of 20. I was referring to getting 2 squads of 10. Sorry I should have been more clear.
Basically you get 2 PM for 1 BL. I think if you try to keep things cheap with bolters and flails the PM do more damage, but the BL are more resilient per point.
Speaking of which what the top damage character you all can come up with? Sadly I think I the deathshroud champion with a Reaper of Glorious Entropy relic and virulent fever pathogen. If you are lucky enough to have putrifier around you can do 3 mortal wounds on a wound roll of 6 which is nasty.
Sadly due to almost every buff being core normal characters such as LoC lag behind champions in terms of damage.
I just had a game last night and went and tried out a lot of the less talked about stuff in the new codex.
A tollkeeper tallyman last night who was buffing a block of 3x plasma 2x blight launcher marines to great effect. He occasionally repositioned to get a second PM squad with a single blightlauncher as well as one of the two MM helbrutes I had running around. Getting extra hits out of blight launchers and multi-meltas really made a huge difference to the game, and on top of that he managed to refund a whooping 5 CP.
Plasma was kind of disappointing though, I really don't want to kill plague marines with overcharging and without 18" rapid fire they aren't worth 10 points. They might be better vs armies with many 2W models though.
Helbrutes in general did quite well, though I should have put a bolter or flamer on the fist to get more benefit from auras. They no longer stick out like a sore thumb that is easy to kill and using haze of corruption on a helbrute fist just massacres anything trying to hold an objective. Being Death Guard CORE really makes them great.
Putting the Reaper of Glorious Entropy on the Death Shroud Champion was so powerful it almost felt like cheating, especially if you use my new favorite stratagem haze of corruption. My opponent agreed and threw four hundred points of melee death star with character support at the deathshroud to kill them. Turns out they eventually die when you hit them with dozens of high AP attacks.
Both the noxious blightbringer and the surgeon had issues keeping up with their respective terminator squads. While the blightbringer was essential to the deathshroud getting into combat, he ended up without protection and got splatted by a reaper.
PBC do a lot more damage now, but it really feels like they fold like any other tank now. Rothail volley gun is decent.
The PBC stratagem wasn't great. Once the PBC completely missed so I spent 2 CP for nothing and once it did 3 damage to a vehicle and a single mortal wound on a nearby unit. Probably not worth it unless you are shooting at 6+ model units with multiple wounds.
LoV was ok-ish. I used him as deep-striking one-man army, and his pathogen-enhanced flamer cleared two objectives and he got some work done on the charge. His AP aura was worthless, despite multiple units nearby being able to trigger it.
I feel like he could be a decent second HQ if he wasn't a Lord of the Death Guard, but as it is, he is not worth giving up re-rolls elsewhere.
I wasn't that amazed by Ferric Blight as other posters were. It really feels useless unless you spend 2 CP for flash outbreak.
Ferric Miasma though? That stratagem actually made the difference between losing and winning. My opponent only barely managed to connect to a unit of blightlords due to it, denying parts of his unit to join combat, preventing him from consolidating onto the objective and allowing the remaining two blightlords (flail and champion) to fight back and survive until the end of the game for while we stand, we fight. Total gain: 10 VP. 1 CP makes it cheap enough to just toss at the enemy whenever they attempt 6"+ charges.
I think PM squads are under-rated becase everyone loves DG terminators so much. I agree deathshrouds are great, but PM can do more damage per points than Blightlords and they are obsec. You can have a brick of Blightlords stand on a midboard and it probably won't die the whole game. But if your opponent throws something durable to keep it busy and has a separate squad of obsec locked in combat or just standing on the objective as well, then those blightlords lose out because they are not obsec.
This is less of an issue with deathshrouds because its unlikely stuff can hang around fighting deathshrouds for long. They are simply that scary in combat.
But PM can threaten at range. Deathshrouds are 12 inches range mostly. Its a big difference. I think ideally, we want some of both ranged and melee threats.
Jidmah wrote: I just had a game last night and went and tried out a lot of the less talked about stuff in the new codex.
A tollkeeper tallyman last night who was buffing a block of 3x plasma 2x blight launcher marines to great effect. He occasionally repositioned to get a second PM squad with a single blightlauncher as well as one of the two MM helbrutes I had running around. Getting extra hits out of blight launchers and multi-meltas really made a huge difference to the game, and on top of that he managed to refund a whooping 5 CP.
Plasma was kind of disappointing though, I really don't want to kill plague marines with overcharging and without 18" rapid fire they aren't worth 10 points. They might be better vs armies with many 2W models though.
Helbrutes in general did quite well, though I should have put a bolter or flamer on the fist to get more benefit from auras. They no longer stick out like a sore thumb that is easy to kill and using haze of corruption on a helbrute fist just massacres anything trying to hold an objective. Being Death Guard CORE really makes them great.
Putting the Reaper of Glorious Entropy on the Death Shroud Champion was so powerful it almost felt like cheating, especially if you use my new favorite stratagem haze of corruption. My opponent agreed and threw four hundred points of melee death star with character support at the deathshroud to kill them. Turns out they eventually die when you hit them with dozens of high AP attacks.
Both the noxious blightbringer and the surgeon had issues keeping up with their respective terminator squads. While the blightbringer was essential to the deathshroud getting into combat, he ended up without protection and got splatted by a reaper.
PBC do a lot more damage now, but it really feels like they fold like any other tank now. Rothail volley gun is decent.
The PBC stratagem wasn't great. Once the PBC completely missed so I spent 2 CP for nothing and once it did 3 damage to a vehicle and a single mortal wound on a nearby unit. Probably not worth it unless you are shooting at 6+ model units with multiple wounds.
LoV was ok-ish. I used him as deep-striking one-man army, and his pathogen-enhanced flamer cleared two objectives and he got some work done on the charge. His AP aura was worthless, despite multiple units nearby being able to trigger it.
I feel like he could be a decent second HQ if he wasn't a Lord of the Death Guard, but as it is, he is not worth giving up re-rolls elsewhere.
I wasn't that amazed by Ferric Blight as other posters were. It really feels useless unless you spend 2 CP for flash outbreak.
Ferric Miasma though? That stratagem actually made the difference between losing and winning. My opponent only barely managed to connect to a unit of blightlords due to it, denying parts of his unit to join combat, preventing him from consolidating onto the objective and allowing the remaining two blightlords (flail and champion) to fight back and survive until the end of the game for while we stand, we fight. Total gain: 10 VP. 1 CP makes it cheap enough to just toss at the enemy whenever they attempt 6"+ charges.
I feel that PBCs are less durable now, but do more damage, so the trick is use their indirect fire in round 1 and keep out of line of sight. When the opponent has revealed his long range heavy support, then the PBCs can come out and use their entropy cannons to good effect. Once enough of the opponent's long range has been reduced then the PBCs can stand in the open and engage in a shooting war of attrition in which they are likely to win.
If your opponent refuses to expose his heavy support before your PBCs do, then that's fine too, because you can just keep on playing this game of chess where you stay out of line of sight as well and keep on pounding targets with your mortars. The key thing is, you don't have to kill the heavy support. As long as they don't dare to expose themselves, its pretty much the same thing. So we need to be more cagey with our PBCs in round 1 or 2 until they can come out and play openly after that. And thanks for sharing!!!
A souped DG list may be more effective for PBC shooting. Demon and CSM daemon princes can still give aura of reroll 1s to PBCs. Oh wait, they can't. Sorry.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I feel that PBCs are less durable now, but do more damage, so the trick is use their indirect fire in round 1 and keep out of line of sight. When the opponent has revealed his long range heavy support, then the PBCs can come out and use their entropy cannons to good effect. Once enough of the opponent's long range has been reduced then the PBCs can stand in the open and engage in a shooting war of attrition in which they are likely to win.
If your opponent refuses to expose his heavy support before your PBCs do, then that's fine too, because you can just keep on playing this game of chess where you stay out of line of sight as well and keep on pounding targets with your mortars. The key thing is, you don't have to kill the heavy support. As long as they don't dare to expose themselves, its pretty much the same thing. So we need to be more cagey with our PBCs in round 1 or 2 until they can come out and play openly after that. And thanks for sharing!!!
True, I have to rethink how to run them, I was still caught in the mindset of having a BS 4+ tank that doesn't die, but has to shoot every turn to actually kill something.
had a game on TTS against a blood angel scorched heart mission
Some considerations: still not sold on Pm, good and decent durable unit but nothing a skilled opponent cant delete when decide to do, maybe better have a single unit of 10 BL (better for straragems and tallyman ability), perhaps better switch the 9pm for 20 more poxes and 2 more Ds termies.
About PBC, they are anyway a good choice but they aren't core so thye dont have access to re rolls and area abilities, still a unit to consider anyway. Im planning to play couple of defilers.
Just wondering do Greater Blight drones get access to Disgusting Resilence and Contagions, still waiting for my FW book to arrive and it'll probably be a while since I live in New Zealand so want to know as I have a couple of the FW models
Here are deathguards competitive book units full stop. This being made where I played mini tournament against the best players in my area.
-Most HQ’s aside from regular lords and sorcerers depending on how you kit them out and what you do.
-both types of terminators
-blightspawn and tallyman. Maybe surgeons (Not sure here)
Poxwalkers
-mower drones
-chaos spawn (I think?)
Everythqing else could be ok at local levels or as a niche one of 1 (maybe) but won’t see play in top level lists.
Let’s go over problems of other units being talked about. First all go over units most everyone knows are bad.
Hellbrutes- they are expensive and have no inv. -1D doesn’t help you against all the AP in this meta.
Blighthaulers- does anyone think 140 points is justified here? GW probably didn’t like a $25 model being spammed, and wanted to make sure that didn’t happen.
Drones without mower- too little damage output.
Noxious blightbringer- his points cost mainly just gets +1 M. Not terrible but overpriced. His relic is also probably only worth the CP you spend on it, since your opponent will know he has it at the beginning of the game.
Biologus putrefier- no op mortal wounds combos killed him.
Cultists- Did they really need to take away these guys obsec?
-CSM stuff- just fragile in our army. A rhino dies faster than like 1 blightlord.
Now here’s me talking about units people like in this thread
Plague marines- I get why people want these to be good enough but they’re just not. The problem with blightlord comparison is 2 fold. The first is you can get much more effectiveness using single target buffs on a 10 man blightlord squad than a 10 man plague marine unit, Tallyman +1 to hit and enteral hatred do a lot more here than they do for plague marines. The second is that plague marine efficiency decreases quicker than blightlords in game. For example, in most cases the same number of shooting and melee attacks will wipe out a plague marine unit vs killling only around 4-5 blightlords if we are being generous to the plague marines). That’s a problem because now the plague marines aren’t dishing out more damage point for point than the blightlords, since more PM died and we have lost special weapons on them while the blightlords ones are still safe. That leaves PM as being only good as obsec holders, but walkers do a better job than them in this area.
-Plagurburst crawlers, the flamer version of them is just too much weaker than their 8th counterparts to worth it. Getting +3 range on their flamer and 3+ BS just doesn’t outshine getting a worse version of DR (for tanks at least) and a having S6 non buffable damage on the flamers. The entropy cannon version looked good for a moment, but no native re-rolls on any of their shots makes 3+ hitting only slightly better than 4+re-rolling one’s. 175 is just much for something that only gets 2 of these good shots and a bad motor (d6 shots is still bad (I too have used Disgusting impact and a CP re-roll for it to miss everything). Let’s not even talk about the slugger.
Managed to find a photo of it on FB doesn't it have Nurgles gift though which is the -1T?????????
it has not
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Salt donkey wrote: Here are deathguards competitive book units full stop. This being made where I played mini tournament against the best players in my area.
-Most HQ’s aside from regular lords and sorcerers depending on how you kit them out and what you do.
-both types of terminators
-blightspawn and tallyman. Maybe surgeons (Not sure here)
Poxwalkers
-mower drones
-chaos spawn (I think?)
Everythqing else could be ok at local levels or as a niche one of 1 (maybe) but won’t see play in top level lists.
Let’s go over problems of other units being talked about. First all go over units most everyone knows are bad.
Hellbrutes- they are expensive and have no inv. -1D doesn’t help you against all the AP in this meta.
Blighthaulers- does anyone think 140 points is justified here? GW probably didn’t like a $25 model being spammed, and wanted to make sure that didn’t happen.
Drones without mower- too little damage output.
Noxious blightbringer- his points cost mainly just gets +1 M. Not terrible but overpriced. His relic is also probably only worth the CP you spend on it, since your opponent will know he has it at the beginning of the game.
Biologus putrefier- no op mortal wounds combos killed him.
Cultists- Did they really need to take away these guys obsec?
-CSM stuff- just fragile in our army. A rhino dies faster than like 1 blightlord.
Now here’s me talking about units people like in this thread
Plague marines- I get why people want these to be good enough but they’re just not. The problem with blightlord comparison is 2 fold. The first is you can get much more effectiveness using single target buffs on a 10 man blightlord squad than a 10 man plague marine unit, Tallyman +1 to hit and enteral hatred do a lot more here than they do for plague marines. The second is that plague marine efficiency decreases quicker than blightlords in game. For example, in most cases the same number of shooting and melee attacks will wipe out a plague marine unit vs killling only around 4-5 blightlords if we are being generous to the plague marines). That’s a problem because now the plague marines aren’t dishing out more damage point for point than the blightlords, since more PM died and we have lost special weapons on them while the blightlords ones are still safe. That leaves PM as being only good as obsec holders, but walkers do a better job than them in this area.
-Plagurburst crawlers, the flamer version of them is just too much weaker than their 8th counterparts to worth it. Getting +3 range on their flamer and 3+ BS just doesn’t outshine getting a worse version of DR (for tanks at least) and a having S6 non buffable damage on the flamers. The entropy cannon version looked good for a moment, but no native re-rolls on any of their shots makes 3+ hitting only slightly better than 4+re-rolling one’s. 175 is just much for something that only gets 2 of these good shots and a bad motor (d6 shots is still bad (I too have used Disgusting impact and a CP re-roll for it to miss everything). Let’s not even talk about the slugger.
-
100% agree but this, like you said, become clear when you start play really competitive, in any other soft/medium game enviroment you cant figure that out.This is why i always said ad will always say...play against competent players using competitve lists, if you really want have a taste of how a codex is, all the rest if just fun, and for fun anything work fine.
I think lot want some unit work just cause they spent time and money on them and refuse to admit they are bad, that is understandable at all.
Yes chaos spawn are exceptionally good for their points. They can put out some crazy damage, move fast, and are surprisingly resilient. I recommend units of 3 which can clear any objective of units that cost twice or three time as their points.
The only area I disagree with you is I think anyone running a competitive list must have 2 PBC to give a long range threat. If you don’t you are going to really struggle in some matchups. The new entropy cannons are very good with -4AP and D3+3 damage each. Not to mention the mortar and stratagem. I can shoot opponents off of objectives even if they are not visible.
On a side note has anyone looked at the damage output of 5x Deathshroud with a biologus putrifier nearby (especially if he has arch-contaminator)? It is absurdly good damage if you scythe attack. I run mine as inexorable and this combo will kill 8 dark angels knights on one round of combat. Really nothing can stand up to it.
Yes chaos spawn are exceptionally good for their points. They can put out some crazy damage, move fast, and are surprisingly resilient. I recommend units of 3 which can clear any objective of units that cost twice or three time as their points.
The only area I disagree with you is I think anyone running a competitive list must have 2 PBC to give a long range threat. If you don’t you are going to really struggle in some matchups. The new entropy cannons are very good with -4AP and D3+3 damage each. Not to mention the mortar and stratagem. I can shoot opponents off of objectives even if they are not visible.
On a side note has anyone looked at the damage output of 5x Deathshroud with a biologus putrifier nearby (especially if he has arch-contaminator)? It is absurdly good damage if you scythe attack. I run mine as inexorable and this combo will kill 8 dark angels knights on one round of combat. Really nothing can stand up to it.
I do like how cheap spawn are for their damage out put. Ran 3 Of them in my last list and wasn’t disappointed by them (but I wasn’t over the moon about them either)
I used to like PBC as much as you, but my opinion changed when I played 3 competitive list. They where certainly good in matchups where my opponents scary stuff didn’t have invs, but too many times I’d get 1 hit with the entropy cannon, 1 wound with the cannon, and then my opponent would make a 4++ or 5++. Or I’d hit twice fail to wound once, and only do 4 damage. Or I’d miss twice. Or I’d hit once, and fail to wound. That meant that too many times my 175 was doing like maybe 2-3 wounds with its mortar and slugger, and that’s it. You’re better off taking FW dreadnoughts due to CORE or souping in your fire support then running these.
Yes chaos spawn are exceptionally good for their points. They can put out some crazy damage, move fast, and are surprisingly resilient. I recommend units of 3 which can clear any objective of units that cost twice or three time as their points.
The only area I disagree with you is I think anyone running a competitive list must have 2 PBC to give a long range threat. If you don’t you are going to really struggle in some matchups. The new entropy cannons are very good with -4AP and D3+3 damage each. Not to mention the mortar and stratagem. I can shoot opponents off of objectives even if they are not visible.
On a side note has anyone looked at the damage output of 5x Deathshroud with a biologus putrifier nearby (especially if he has arch-contaminator)? It is absurdly good damage if you scythe attack. I run mine as inexorable and this combo will kill 8 dark angels knights on one round of combat. Really nothing can stand up to it.
I do like how cheap spawn are for their damage out put. Ran 3 Of them in my last list and wasn’t disappointed by them (but I wasn’t over the moon about them either)
I used to like PBC as much as you, but my opinion changed when I played 3 competitive list. They where certainly good in matchups where my opponents scary stuff didn’t have invs, but too many times I’d get 1 hit with the entropy cannon, 1 wound with the cannon, and then my opponent would make a 4++ or 5++. Or I’d hit twice fail to wound once, and only do 4 damage. Or I’d miss twice. Or I’d hit once, and fail to wound. That meant that too many times my 175 was doing like maybe 2-3 wounds with its mortar and slugger, and that’s it. You’re better off taking FW dreadnoughts due to CORE or souping in your fire support then running these.
Out of curiosity did you use the stratagem to make them more Nurgly or run them normally?
Greater blight drone does have Nurgle's gift but not contagions which is weird but I think doesn't make any real practical difference.
Inclined to agree with the above, especially on the PBCs. I've played four games since the new codex taking two in each list and they just haven't performed. Even when rolling well for the mortar it's still too swingy and not terribly durable.
Poxwalkers are fantastic, the MW strat is awesome despite the fact that twice now I've had some miserable luck with it rolling 20 something dice and getting zero 6s and like seven 1s! Two big units means you can push them both up through the objectives, charge with one and drop the MW strat while spreading sickness with the other.
Deathshroud are incredible and putting the relic manreaper on the champ is like taking a wrecking ball LOC with ablative wounds! Devestating.
Clearly the mower drone is awesome but I've still gotten mileage out of the HBL. It can reach out and touch pretty much anywhere on the board to soften up obsec and can stay out of trouble most of the game so your opponent is focused on trying to bring down other stuff in your army. If you keep it alive it will happily chew through at least 2 squads of primaris throughout the game. A real pain for your opponent if you are taking them off his home objective and forcing him to go backwards.
Salt donkey wrote: Here are deathguards competitive book units full stop. This being made where I played mini tournament against the best players in my area.
-Most HQ’s aside from regular lords and sorcerers depending on how you kit them out and what you do.
-both types of terminators
-blightspawn and tallyman. Maybe surgeons (Not sure here)
Poxwalkers
-mower drones
-chaos spawn (I think?)
Everythqing else could be ok at local levels or as a niche one of 1 (maybe) but won’t see play in top level lists.
Let’s go over problems of other units being talked about. First all go over units most everyone knows are bad.
Hellbrutes- they are expensive and have no inv. -1D doesn’t help you against all the AP in this meta.
Blighthaulers- does anyone think 140 points is justified here? GW probably didn’t like a $25 model being spammed, and wanted to make sure that didn’t happen.
Drones without mower- too little damage output.
Noxious blightbringer- his points cost mainly just gets +1 M. Not terrible but overpriced. His relic is also probably only worth the CP you spend on it, since your opponent will know he has it at the beginning of the game.
Biologus putrefier- no op mortal wounds combos killed him.
Cultists- Did they really need to take away these guys obsec?
-CSM stuff- just fragile in our army. A rhino dies faster than like 1 blightlord.
Now here’s me talking about units people like in this thread
Plague marines- I get why people want these to be good enough but they’re just not. The problem with blightlord comparison is 2 fold. The first is you can get much more effectiveness using single target buffs on a 10 man blightlord squad than a 10 man plague marine unit, Tallyman +1 to hit and enteral hatred do a lot more here than they do for plague marines. The second is that plague marine efficiency decreases quicker than blightlords in game. For example, in most cases the same number of shooting and melee attacks will wipe out a plague marine unit vs killling only around 4-5 blightlords if we are being generous to the plague marines). That’s a problem because now the plague marines aren’t dishing out more damage point for point than the blightlords, since more PM died and we have lost special weapons on them while the blightlords ones are still safe. That leaves PM as being only good as obsec holders, but walkers do a better job than them in this area.
-Plagurburst crawlers, the flamer version of them is just too much weaker than their 8th counterparts to worth it. Getting +3 range on their flamer and 3+ BS just doesn’t outshine getting a worse version of DR (for tanks at least) and a having S6 non buffable damage on the flamers. The entropy cannon version looked good for a moment, but no native re-rolls on any of their shots makes 3+ hitting only slightly better than 4+re-rolling one’s. 175 is just much for something that only gets 2 of these good shots and a bad motor (d6 shots is still bad (I too have used Disgusting impact and a CP re-roll for it to miss everything). Let’s not even talk about the slugger.
Morty has been discussed heavily here, so that’s why I didn’t bring him up. To summarize he is great in certain matchups, but bad if your opponent has a game plan to handle him, and against armies deathguard naturally struggle with (sisters of battle, dark eldar, TSon soup, any army that shoots very well). That makes him the perfect example of a noob stomper unit, something that is the bane for casual play, but bad competitively.
Just run a bit of maths.
PBC Mortar will generally kill 1 or 2 primaris a turn. Even a roll of 6 shots you're probably looking at not exceeding 2 killed.
HBL Drone will consistently kill 2 primaris a turn, going to 3 when contagions kick in.
Obviously the PBC doesn't need line of sight, but the Drone with a 10" movement and fly can generally get sight of most things on the board if required.
You're paying 35pts for the two entropy cannons and the Heavy Slugger, T8 and 3 wounds. The PBC does degrade though while the Drone is more mobile and harder to tag in combat as can sit on a ruin etc and can actually contribute a little in melee.
I think my preference is with the Drone just for consistency and the ability to contribute in other areas of the game (board control, objective grabbing etc) but in fairness to GW i don't think there's quite such huge swings of viability in the codex and as was said above, i think it's only when you really need to push a list as hard as you possibly can, that these sorts of choices become important.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The other unit I think we have available filling a similar role to the PBC is the twin volkite contemptor.
With the missiles it costs the same as the PBC and with no buffs it consistently kills 2-3 Primaris plus causes a further 2-3 MWs.
The output gets even better with buffs from tallyman or rerolls from a lord etc and when contagions kick in to bring marine toughness down to 3.
The missiles aren't as good as the entropy cannons and it's only T7 but like the Drone it doesn't degrade.
Can also half the shooting output by swapping a chainfist in then the contemptor can contribute some pretty horrific melee too. Has been a really great unit in the two games I've run him in.
Abaddon303 wrote: Clearly the mower drone is awesome but I've still gotten mileage out of the HBL. It can reach out and touch pretty much anywhere on the board to soften up obsec and can stay out of trouble most of the game so your opponent is focused on trying to bring down other stuff in your army. If you keep it alive it will happily chew through at least 2 squads of primaris throughout the game. A real pain for your opponent if you are taking them off his home objective and forcing him to go backwards.
I think the thing holding the HBL drone back is a lack of obvious synergy. I don't think its bad but its unlikely to ever be great. If you get to fight more than twice the mower is obviously superior even if the HBL is throwing out shots all game.
I've got an idea of a list with say two patrols,
2 Plaguecasters,
46 Poxwalkers,
3*3 Death Shroud
1 Tallyman
1*5 Spawn
3 HBL Drones
3 Entropy PBCs.
But really I think you'd immediately swap the HBL for Mowers to boost the assault potential. And possibly drop one or the spawn to fit everything in a battalion for more CP. And swap a Plaguecaster for a LoC while shaving some points somewhere such as the Poxwalkers. And 3 PBC might be too many - although I think it makes them more reliable than only having one.
Anyway... very quickly you are turning this into what seems to be "the standard DG list without Mortarion".
I think a bigger lump of DS is better than 3x3, also protects the relic on the champion a little better.
Also while I just spent a while bigging up the HBL drone, I definitely wouldn't take three. If you want three drones take 2 mowers and one HBL
Have played a couple of games on TTS now and am agreeing with most of what has been posted here so far.
I like the PBC's more reliable damage but they seem to die alot easier than before. I have only used the Entrophy version and those cannons are alot more reliable than the mortar now.
Plague marines have been a little disappointing so far, getting them into combat or onto objectives has been challenging.
Or leaving a big squad back on an objective feels wasteful when they are so expensive.
Dont think the Surgeon is worth it with plague marines, just does not add enough.
Have failed to get either the Blightening or the mortal wound effect from Bioligus Putrifier to work yet. Another great on paper but hard to actually use!
Foul Blighspawn with Stench Vats and the reroll virus is still an auto include.
Morty kinda feels like a crutch to the Codex for me. As said above he will club those unprepared for him and leave people thinking DG are an incredible army.
I try to play in 2 or 3 competitive events each year and I am a little concerned that DG are not going to cut it. Still more lists to try, have not gone Termy heavy yet but with no ways to help deepstrike charges that approach is leaving alot to luck!
The final and possibly biggest problem I see is with secondaries, they all suck for DG! Last night I played against an all Ravenwing army and there was not 1 single secondary I wanted to take. This puts us at a real disadvantage before the game even begins.
Just to warn you - the all Ravenwing army killed Morty with ease in the first turn!
I definitely plan to stick with Plague Marines. I am sick of seeing "chaos space marine" armies with barely any actual marines. I do love me some terminators though so those are definitely on my list of must take units. in fact that reminds me I need to get another box of blight Lord terminators...
I think my main plan is going to be using the plague Marine squads in small chunks and taking advantage of additional firepower. So for example five man squads with a blight launcher and two plasma guns (one on the champion). Although I really want to try a combined arms squad in a dread claw, especially if you give them support like a biologous putrifier. I actually think the foul blightspawn can work with this because his weapons synergize pretty well with the squad's weapons.
So working on my new competitive list. It takes much of what I have read here from others and incorporates it.
Death Guard - Strikeforce - Grand Tournament ( 6CP - 1999PT - 1PT )
Death Guard Battalion Detachment ( 3CP - 1959PT )
SUB-FACTION: Inexorable
HQ WARLORD: Lord of Contagion (125) Manreaper, Orb of desiccation
TRAITS: Ferric Blight
RELICS: Reaper of Glorious Entropy
Malignant Plaguecaster (95)
PSYCHIC POWERS: Gift of Plagues, Miasma of Pestilence
if i can give you a suggestion...take off 3 deathshrouds and add some extra blightlords, they work fine in big unit, enhanced by tallyman,keep the 2x3 Ds and add a full squad of BL. You might also try use a patrol for 2x3 deathshrouds+your malignant, with mortarion choosen sons company, so you have 2D flamers, 2 wounds make a big difference in actual meta.
Can someone remind me why chaos contemptors are garbage compared to SM? Vaguely recall everyone heralding the post 9th FW Dreads as just better in SM flavor - similar to the apples to apples between Chaos Knights and SM Knights for most of 8th (SM knights just had more relics, better households, etc. - again 'in general').
I was thinking of running 3x twin volkite contemptors with the tallyman relic - the exploding 6's look interesting on a core unit - and he can buff the Contemptor up to 2+ from 3+ - finally if shooting with a PBC first you can get reroll's to wound rolls of 1 which is nice when looking for the mortals on 6's. Finally, as inexorable - it makes up for the 0 AP slightly - and even if 1-3 saves are failed per volley the damage might add up(?). The dreads naturally benefit from the 1 dmg reduction... the reason to put them in the deathguard is really the tallyman and the ability to add reroll wounds of 1 alongside the inexorable AP.
Current list spec something like:
Inexorable battalion:
Lord of Contagion (Ferric blight)
Malignant
10 pox
10 pox
10 cultists
3x deathshrouds
3x deathshrouds
Contemptor with vulkite
contemptor with vulkite
contemptor with vulkite
Tallyman (Tollkeeper)
Drone with Fleshmower
Drone with Fleshmower
PBC PBC PBC
Toying with bringing a 3rd drone to help get the contagion on opponent - as the drone is the most likely source early to mid game - with the deathshrouds hopefully enabling later... Not sure 3 PBC are really necessary - i could drop to 2 - bring a prince and another drone for the cost which i am leaning towards - giving the prince a spewer still allows WWSWF with the 2 PBC and prince which looks favorable...
blackmage wrote: if i can give you a suggestion...take off 3 deathshrouds and add some extra blightlords, they work fine in big unit, enhanced by tallyman,keep the 2x3 Ds and add a full squad of BL. You might also try use a patrol for 2x3 deathshrouds+your malignant, with mortarion choosen sons company, so you have 2D flamers, 2 wounds make a big difference in actual meta.
I have tried 10x Blightlords and 2x squads of three Deathshroud in previous lists and wasn’t impressed. I have just found the only thing Blightlords are good at is not dying because their damage is terrible. I would rather just take Mortarian. Their bad damage per point is the reason I decided to go with a unit of five BL and DS each. The DS are just soooo much better and it allows me to threaten multiple locations simultaneously. I will run the units of x BL and DS up the table, flanked by the spawns/ Fleshmowers, and deepstrike in my 2 units of 3 DS to disrupt their back lines. Then the poxwalkers secure and contaminate objectives while the PBC pound units from a distance.
I really want to find a way to add a biologus putrfier and some PMs for some grenade shenanigans and giving units 6+ MWs. It is just hard to find stuff to cut for him and the PMs. I would also like to add more units of spawn. They are very solid choice for so few points!!
In regards to the Mortarian’s Sons, giving a single unit 2D STR 3 flamers doesn’t really excite me. I would rather the AP-1 for their flamers and scythe attacks.
I’ll let you know how this list turns out, but it has a solid punch, speed, and disruptive capabilities.
Think about a 10 man unit of blightlords with 2-3 3 man deathshroud teams is the way the go. You need buffs to make blightlords work, but with them I’ve found them to be effective enough. Being able to clear chaff off of far away objectives is always nice, and you’d rather have things shooting at blightlord than anything else (every list wants units that absorb fire well).
Deathshroud, meanwhile, want to only be shot after they’ve charged something. To that end you always want to be hiding the deathshroud behind terrain. Having limited smaller units helps with that, so that’s what I tend to prefer not having more than 3 in a unit.
Hi
During the autumn I run a spawn heavy list at 1k points as Death Guard (I otherwise used them in a Nurgle CSM) and they were rather successful due to the 5++ (THE DAEMON’S TOLL) and old 5+++ Disgustingly
Resilient (from strategem). I have just briefly looked through the codex and it looks like they can still be rather good.
They lose 1 attack the first round in CC from that HATEFUL ASSAULT is no more, but 2d3 is .5 more than 1d6 in average, so not that bad.
The new CONTAGIONS OF NURGLE sounds great for a CC unit!
They got a own stratagem, that also sound good and give some back of the lost resilience.
They are not CORE that deny may of the buffs like the re-roll 1 from Lords or DP.
Are there any other synergy or stratagem that I missed and are particular good for them?
Thanks for reply
BR
Nora wrote: Hi
During the autumn I run a spawn heavy list at 1k points as Death Guard (I otherwise used them in a Nurgle CSM) and they were rather successful due to the 5++ (THE DAEMON’S TOLL) and old 5+++ Disgustingly
Resilient (from strategem). I have just briefly looked through the codex and it looks like they can still be rather good.
They lose 1 attack the first round in CC from that HATEFUL ASSAULT is no more, but 2d3 is .5 more than 1d6 in average, so not that bad.
The new CONTAGIONS OF NURGLE sounds great for a CC unit!
They got a own stratagem, that also sound good and give some back of the lost resilience.
They are not CORE that deny may of the buffs like the re-roll 1 from Lords or DP.
Are there any other synergy or stratagem that I missed and are particular good for them?
Thanks for reply
BR
It is spring 2021 now. The new codex strongly recommend to play 1 unit of spawns(if any), preferably with 3 models. 1 or 2 could also be good for performing actions or holding objectives.
But bring big units and giving them heavy-lifting job? That just don't works. Spawns is such kind of units: if you don't care about their performance, they would easily earn their value back. If you CARE about their performance, they will fail you.
broxus wrote: So working on my new competitive list. It takes much of what I have read here from others and incorporates it.
Death Guard - Strikeforce - Grand Tournament ( 6CP - 1999PT - 1PT )
Death Guard Battalion Detachment ( 3CP - 1959PT )
SUB-FACTION: Inexorable
HQ WARLORD: Lord of Contagion (125) Manreaper, Orb of desiccation
TRAITS: Ferric Blight
RELICS: Reaper of Glorious Entropy
Malignant Plaguecaster (95)
PSYCHIC POWERS: Gift of Plagues, Miasma of Pestilence
I've managed to get only one game with the new codex so far. I'm interested if anyone has experience with the following combinations and how did they perform:
1. Lord of Contagion with Gloaming Bloat. The Contagion is pretty powerful but my single game was against IG and I only used Flash outbreak on Great blight drone to prevent artillery and tanks from rerolling. The Lord of Contagion was hanging around some footslogging terminators in the mid-field but didn't see combat.
2. Plague surgeon with Living plague and Fugaris helm. I didn't use this but the helm sounds great on a Surgeon in the front line with either kind of terminators to strip auras from enemy melee units. But I'm not sure if it's actually necessary if I just use Gloaming Bloat to prevent rerolls. Are both of them together overkill?
3. Blightspawn with revolting stench-vats and On droning wings. I suppose many have used this but I'm wondering if the default range is enough or should I play Ferrymen instead of M's Anvil just for this stratagem. It sounds extremely powerful defensive tool against Space wolves which I usually play against.
2. Plague surgeon with Living plague and Fugaris helm. I didn't use this but the helm sounds great on a Surgeon in the front line with either kind of terminators to strip auras from enemy melee units. But I'm not sure if it's actually necessary if I just use Gloaming Bloat to prevent rerolls. Are both of them together overkill?
I played a list with both, gloaming bloat and living plague, having 2 drones and 5 spawn i can flash outbreak what i need more.
2. Plague surgeon with Living plague and Fugaris helm. I didn't use this but the helm sounds great on a Surgeon in the front line with either kind of terminators to strip auras from enemy melee units. But I'm not sure if it's actually necessary if I just use Gloaming Bloat to prevent rerolls. Are both of them together overkill?
I played a list with both, gloaming bloat and living plague, having 2 drones and 5 spawn i can flash outbreak what i need more.
Living plague is an aura ability. It can't be used with Flash outbreak.
lare2 wrote: Huh, only just realised we can't run sorcerers anymore. That sucks.
Why, and how? Due to lack of DR and T4, "basic" sorcerer was already a subpar choice in 8th. In 9th it just annexed by the "plaguecaster" category. You can still use your model(maybe swap a sword to a stick, for tournament requirements) if you like.
ok. I ended up facing a deathguard list. lol mirror match which I lost, so I ain't even mad. Anyway, my observations.
1. Blightlords and deathshroud are better than PM. But I will still continue to experiment with some, because the blightening strategem is awesome with PM. Suddenly a squad of 5 basic PM can throw out 18 autohit shots from just 3 models. Its amazing. Even unsupported by the Biologus, its amazing. But with the Biologus, it becomes even better of course. This is the thing, if you don't bring any PM, and only being poxwalkers and terminators, then you can't use Blightening strat because terminators have no grenades anymore.
2, Seems like 3 PBC is all the ranged anti-tank we will need. Hard to kill, can hide, but if opponent leaves them alive, they can be a constant threat to vehicles are other stuff alike. But to take out 3, you need to devote a massive amount of shooting. Unlikely you can even take out 2 in one turn, especially if they start hidden correctly. But their damage is very RNG. Because of the d6 on mortar and because it all depends on whether their entropy cannons score or not.
3. Poxwalkers are great.
4. Chaos spawn are pretty tanky with that stratgem. my 3 T6 spawn got charged by a squad of 5 blightlords, and one actually survived! I was kinda shocked.
5. FBD got taken out by 2 shots from entropy cannons. It didn't do anything.
6. Hellbrutes are ok, But have to bring weapons with more shots to benefit from tallyman. Because it feels bad when I roll 1 on number of shots for the plasma cannon. Feels like they would be best with twin heavy bolters because you get 6 shots. but then again... see next point.
7. Don't bring too many 2D weapons, against a mirror match of DG, all the 2D becomes 1D lol.
lare2 wrote: Huh, only just realised we can't run sorcerers anymore. That sucks.
Why, and how? Due to lack of DR and T4, "basic" sorcerer was already a subpar choice in 8th. In 9th it just annexed by the "plaguecaster" category. You can still use your model(maybe swap a sword to a stick, for tournament requirements) if you like.
Mainly because I'd kitbashed a Nurgle sorcerer that I was really quite proud of... hey ho. Perhaps he'll return one day. Also, although he wasn't much cheaper than a MP, it came in handy having a sorcerer for some lists when you needed something cheaper.
Is investing in a Land Raider worth it? I was thinking of getting one for possessed transportation purposes, but since it's pretty expensive both points and money-wise, how well does it fit into a DG army overall?
ArcaneHorror wrote: Is investing in a Land Raider worth it? I was thinking of getting one for possessed transportation purposes, but since it's pretty expensive both points and money-wise, how well does it fit into a DG army overall?
One of the most typical "white elephant unit" in 8th. In 9th the situation just got much worse. Do you know how many eradicators and attack bikes kits are sold to Imperium players everyday?
Well, between inexorable advance, better heavy bolters, smoke screen and new terrain rules it isn't an an auto-lose unit if you really want to bring one, but it's definitely not a very competitive option. For any unit it could drive into combat, you could also just add 300 points worth of models to that unit and still have it fight in turn 2.
No one mentioned possessed ? I just realised that they move 7 inches, same as spawn. But the blightbringer buffs possessed because its Core and infantry while spawn cannot be buffed by the Blightbringer.
+1 move and +1 advance means possessed are moving 9+d6 on a move advance. And since they got zero shooting, doing a move advance is a no brainer. I kept on thinking about PM squads with flails and stuff and then I realised a 5 man possessed squad's melee output would put a 5 man PM squad's melee output to shame. And possessed are by default plague weapons in melee.
I don't think there's anything wrong with possessed - its just unclear you'd take them over alternatives - even if they can get buffs in a way say Spawn can't. I think the issue is their 1 damage means there is a range of targets they don't deal with very well.
By contrast while say spawn are more vulnerable to 2 damage weapons you kind of feel if they are taking these shots its not the end of the world. While their damage output is significantly more variable, it should tend to be quite a bit higher - and with two damage they can put a dent in most things.
With that said, I wonder if there is a potential build out there with say a load of Deathshroud/Spawn/Possessed+buff characters and some rear-area Poxwalkers. With all those units going forward it could be quite nasty to deal with even with essentially no shooting. But in terms of competitive play I think secondaries remain the issue.
Two questions, interested in hearing what success people are having with secondaries. Nothing is really coming through as an obvious pick which is making it harder for me to commit to building a list around them. I've generally been going with spread the sickness and either engage our dominate depending on the number of objectives.
There seems to be loads of MWs mechanics in the new codex, I started a list of all of them and was gonna try to build an army that really doubled down on just throwing out a ton of them. Was wondering if anybody has investigated that themselves to save me a little work!
Yeah I have done the same! My main list is a Wretched list using Typhus and two plague casters, that’s a ton of mortals just from the plague casters and typhus’s warlord trait. Then you also run 60 pox walkers and use their strat for mortals, flash outbreak the MW contagion from typhus on bloat drones up front, auto explode them for more mortals. Take a bell boy with an extra WL trait for the mortal wound aura and have him take the helm. The list tries to not die and score passive secondaries.
Brymm wrote: Yeah I have done the same! My main list is a Wretched list using Typhus and two plague casters, that’s a ton of mortals just from the plague casters and typhus’s warlord trait. Then you also run 60 pox walkers and use their strat for mortals, flash outbreak the MW contagion from typhus on bloat drones up front, auto explode them for more mortals. Take a bell boy with an extra WL trait for the mortal wound aura and have him take the helm. The list tries to not die and score passive secondaries.
Nice. Cheap characters seem good for the MW fart strat and exploding death strat.
How are you using typhus' warlord trait in a wretched detachment? Or are you running two detachments?
If Typhus is your warlord, he has to take Shamblerot no matter what type of detachment he is in. Then, since he’s in a Wretched detachment, you can use the Plague Chosen strat to take another warlord trait on a plague caster, in that case, the Wretched contagion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh no! I went back and reread it! He can’t be in a Wretched detachment with his warlord trait.
Back to the drawing board! I was confusing his ability with Mortarion!
Brymm wrote: If Typhus is your warlord, he has to take Shamblerot no matter what type of detachment he is in. Then, since he’s in a Wretched detachment, you can use the Plague Chosen strat to take another warlord trait on a plague caster, in that case, the Wretched contagion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh no! I went back and reread it! He can’t be in a Wretched detachment with his warlord trait.
Back to the drawing board! I was confusing his ability with Mortarion!
I thought he can actually. You can totally bring Typhus in a wretched detachment, its only that if you make him the warlord, then he must take the shamblerot warlord trait. (which is fine in a MW list). You can still get the wretched warlord trait by taking plague chosen on one of your malignant plague castor.
Ok I've played against the new DA. Holy moly it's absolutely brutal.
I don't want to rant, but there is some serious disparity in how GW writes Chaos codexes vs Loyalists codexes.
N0tThatGuy wrote: Ok I've played against the new DA. Holy moly it's absolutely brutal.
I don't want to rant, but there is some serious disparity in how GW writes Chaos codexes vs Loyalists codexes.
?? All of the new 9th edition codexes have been powerful so far. Necrons, Space Marines, DG, the various SM supplements, have all been powerful. Have you seen the latest Dark Angel's codex? Their terminator unit is actually even more tanky (permanent transhuman...) than a blightlord or deathshroud unit, plus it can be obsec as well. I saw a battle report where a big DA terminator block got charged by literally 7 or 8 blood angel units (and BA are the masters of melee). That DA terminator block took some losses but actually survived.... wow! That was amazing.
GW seems to be intent on raising the power level of every single 9th ed codex it releases based on the movie "incredibles" logic of "If everyone is super, then No one will be..."
N0tThatGuy wrote: Ok I've played against the new DA. Holy moly it's absolutely brutal.
I don't want to rant, but there is some serious disparity in how GW writes Chaos codexes vs Loyalists codexes.
I think DA are a bit of an outlier and will probably see some changes once regular tournaments start happening. We shall see.
It's a shame because the other Space Marine books actually restored a lot of my confidence in the rule writers because of how 'restrained while still being good' they were. DA have a bit of Iron Hands supplement 'do everything well' going on.
Okay on the Typhus thing, he can be in any detachment without breaking the detachment rules, but it says you can only take his Warlord trait and take him as your warlord if he is in a Harbingers detachment. So you can use him to get Shamblerot in a non harbingers detachment, which is what I wanted to do. He still might be great in a Wretched detachment though as he is a lord who is a psyker and a super tanky bad ass Lord of Contagion.
Brymm wrote: Okay on the Typhus thing, he can be in any detachment without breaking the detachment rules, but it says you can only take his Warlord trait and take him as your warlord if he is in a Harbingers detachment. So you can use him to get Shamblerot in a non harbingers detachment, which is what I wanted to do. He still might be great in a Wretched detachment though as he is a lord who is a psyker and a super tanky bad ass Lord of Contagion.
I've been using him in an inexorable detachment and he's been fine with no warlord trait. He still chucks out a decent amount of mortals with his destroyer hive a smite and a curse of the leper. I've actually been finding I reign his psychic in a lot so as not to make charges longer!
He's 40pts more than a LOC but you're getting the MWs, 2 psychic spells an extra attack and basically a relic manreaper. I reckon he's worth the extra points...
So just a warning to everyone if you are using the warhammer app to build you points for death guard the points are potentially wrong in the calculation. I have found my lists are anywhere from 50-60 points wrong. I have been playing one lists for seven games only to realize it was nearly 70pts short. The great part is it feels like I just had points cuts!!
On the subject of possessed, I played a game with my Bud a week ago and he played deathguard vs my iron hands. Amazing game, he beat me pretty solidly.
He had a squad of 10 possessed and honestly they are what helped him win the game. They ended up charging turn 2 into 5 intercessors, wiping them. Then he hit 5 infiltrators t3 and dropped them to srg with 1 wound left (I transhumaned and he rolled horribly to hit). Finished that guy off in my turn, grabbed my objective on that flank, and I had nothing that could shift them at that point as I was dealing with mortarion in the center.
After the game we talked and agreed they are what won him the game. High number of attacks, resistance to a lot of dmg, high speed (for nurgle), and I didn't have an answer to them. It helped me make my iron hands better (added a thunder fire cannon in to slow problems like that down, which in my last game vs custodies actually won me the game) but also showed me that possessed deserve respect. I can see a speed force as an option, possessed, drones, haulers, mortarion, deamon princes with some pox walkers / 5 man troops for back line holding and terms deep striking where needed. Definitely a viable option.
Yeah, the thing about possessed is that they are fast in comparision to other DG units. They are movement 7, and can be buffed by the blightbringer. They are also core and use all plague weapons. Even without strategems, their base damage is high because of the high AP and the high number of hits. Throw in buffs and strategems you can potentially give them, and they can really smash stuff up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: On the subject of possessed, I played a game with my Bud a week ago and he played deathguard vs my iron hands. Amazing game, he beat me pretty solidly.
He had a squad of 10 possessed and honestly they are what helped him win the game. They ended up charging turn 2 into 5 intercessors, wiping them. Then he hit 5 infiltrators t3 and dropped them to srg with 1 wound left (I transhumaned and he rolled horribly to hit). Finished that guy off in my turn, grabbed my objective on that flank, and I had nothing that could shift them at that point as I was dealing with mortarion in the center.
After the game we talked and agreed they are what won him the game. High number of attacks, resistance to a lot of dmg, high speed (for nurgle), and I didn't have an answer to them. It helped me make my iron hands better (added a thunder fire cannon in to slow problems like that down, which in my last game vs custodies actually won me the game) but also showed me that possessed deserve respect. I can see a speed force as an option, possessed, drones, haulers, mortarion, deamon princes with some pox walkers / 5 man troops for back line holding and terms deep striking where needed. Definitely a viable option.
Hmm, I thought death guard can't be slowed. Thunderfire cannons or tanglefoot grenades do nothing to death guard possessed. They still move their maximum movement.
Thanks for the advice on the Land Raider. I think that I'll hold off on getting it for now.
After looking over the different plague companies, it looks like the one that fits the best for me is Mortarion's Anvil. My plan is to have Plague Marines and maybe poxwalkers hold down objectives while possessed, Deathshroud, and a Lord of Contagion go on the offensive, backed up by noxious blightbringers and blightspawns. Both the Relaptic Assault stratagem and Warp Insect Hive relic strike me as really good for my needs. What are some examples of effective ways to run the 3rd company in an army?
BTW, one additional consideration for Possessed. With stuff like transhuman, and DA terminators, 4++ saves, disgustingly resilient and their counterparts, weight of attacks might be better than a few high damage attacks. a squad of 5 possessed has 20 attacks at -2AP with 1 damage. Even if its 2 damage, against DR or DA terminators with their version of DR, it will make no difference because reduced to 1 damage. So possessed are fine without the 2 damage because they rely on weight on attacks.
So the 5 possessed has 20 attacks, with -2AP which immediately brings them down to their 4++ invul save. I think a squad of possessed charging into a squad of DA terminators may do more damage than say a PM unit with flails, or even a squad of blightlords. Especially when you factor in transhuman, which makes it all 4+ to wound anyway.
20 attacks, buff with Tallyman with +1 to hit, with arch contaminator giving rerolls to wound. And then buff it with a Biologus Putrifier to give mortal wounds on 6s. I think 20 attacks with exploding 6s and reroll all wounds should results in around 15 wounds of which 2 to 3 are mortals. He fails half of these, that's 7. So, 3 terminators dead from a squad of 5 possessed. Thats not bad right?
Eldenfirefly wrote: BTW, one additional consideration for Possessed. With stuff like transhuman, and DA terminators, 4++ saves, disgustingly resilient and their counterparts, weight of attacks might be better than a few high damage attacks. a squad of 5 possessed has 20 attacks at -2AP with 1 damage. Even if its 2 damage, against DR or DA terminators with their version of DR, it will make no difference because reduced to 1 damage. So possessed are fine without the 2 damage because they rely on weight on attacks.
So the 5 possessed has 20 attacks, with -2AP which immediately brings them down to their 4++ invul save. I think a squad of possessed charging into a squad of DA terminators may do more damage than say a PM unit with flails, or even a squad of blightlords. Especially when you factor in transhuman, which makes it all 4+ to wound anyway.
20 attacks, buff with Tallyman with +1 to hit, with arch contaminator giving rerolls to wound. And then buff it with a Biologus Putrifier to give mortal wounds on 6s. I think 20 attacks with exploding 6s and reroll all wounds should results in around 15 wounds of which 2 to 3 are mortals. He fails half of these, that's 7. So, 3 terminators dead from a squad of 5 possessed. Thats not bad right?
Terminator with shield has "1+" save. AP-2 makes it 3+, not 4+.
Eldenfirefly wrote: BTW, one additional consideration for Possessed. With stuff like transhuman, and DA terminators, 4++ saves, disgustingly resilient and their counterparts, weight of attacks might be better than a few high damage attacks. a squad of 5 possessed has 20 attacks at -2AP with 1 damage. Even if its 2 damage, against DR or DA terminators with their version of DR, it will make no difference because reduced to 1 damage. So possessed are fine without the 2 damage because they rely on weight on attacks.
So the 5 possessed has 20 attacks, with -2AP which immediately brings them down to their 4++ invul save. I think a squad of possessed charging into a squad of DA terminators may do more damage than say a PM unit with flails, or even a squad of blightlords. Especially when you factor in transhuman, which makes it all 4+ to wound anyway.
20 attacks, buff with Tallyman with +1 to hit, with arch contaminator giving rerolls to wound. And then buff it with a Biologus Putrifier to give mortal wounds on 6s. I think 20 attacks with exploding 6s and reroll all wounds should results in around 15 wounds of which 2 to 3 are mortals. He fails half of these, that's 7. So, 3 terminators dead from a squad of 5 possessed. Thats not bad right?
Terminator with shield has "1+" save. AP-2 makes it 3+, not 4+.
Well, statistically, large number of attacks would still work better than a few high AP, big damage attacks. Anyway, you can take Ferric blight. Inexorable is a good plague company. That will add 1 more AP to all within the Ferric blight contagion range.
So I ran a game against an ultramarine player earlier this week with a list very similar to what Blackmage posted above, basically with a daemon prince instead.
The game hurt me deeply.
He just ignored mortarion for the first two turns and focused everything on killing my troops. All my poxies and my possesed squad were just straight up dead before I got anywhere close to combat. Redemptor dreadnoughts just seem better than any tool we have access to.
So wasnt morty able to just go ham then since he was ignored? Yea, charged a full 10 man hellblaster squad, which promptly got transhumaned, and Morty killed a full 2 marines. That was depressing. Especially considering he just fell back with them and shot morty, then charged with Gulliman. Morty actually survived with 1 wound, and killed girlyman on the swing back, but guess who revived with 6 wounds left.
By the end of the game, he had still at least half his army left, and my only models were 3 chaos spawn hiding on an objective. The score was almost close, if he didnt max out 2 of his secondaries through killing my crap.
Overall feels that death guard are pretty survivable, but their damage output (at least against marines) is still pretty pitiful. But I guess why compare anything to marines in 8th lol.
I think 9th Ed DG needs to be able to shoot back. Being tanky and killy in melee isn't enough. There are some very shooty armies out there. We are never going to be the shootiest army but we at least need to be able to reduce some of our opponent's most deadly shooting so that we can then take the mid field more safely. This is why I believe that 3 PBCs are better than 1 Morty.
If being tanky and killy in melee was enough to win the game, why don't we see lists with 30 storm shield terminators?
Morty isn't that killy on his own. I think he is good also because he is a primach that can fly at least 12 inches up the board and then project a massive 9 inch radius contagion bubble. plus he has that aura that turns off auras. He also has psychic. Curse of the Leper plus Smite can do a lot of damage to the elite space marine squads. Is he good enough? I don't know. He is a very skewed unit, almost like how knights were when they were first introduced. If your opponent is shooty enough or has the tools to handle Morty, then having Morty is a liability because he cost nearly 500 points and he couldn't do enough. If your opponent can't handle Morty, then Morty would make your victory assured.
ninjafiredragon wrote: So I ran a game against an ultramarine player earlier this week with a list very similar to what Blackmage posted above, basically with a daemon prince instead.
The game hurt me deeply.
He just ignored mortarion for the first two turns and focused everything on killing my troops. All my poxies and my possesed squad were just straight up dead before I got anywhere close to combat. Redemptor dreadnoughts just seem better than any tool we have access to.
So wasnt morty able to just go ham then since he was ignored? Yea, charged a full 10 man hellblaster squad, which promptly got transhumaned, and Morty killed a full 2 marines. That was depressing. Especially considering he just fell back with them and shot morty, then charged with Gulliman. Morty actually survived with 1 wound, and killed girlyman on the swing back, but guess who revived with 6 wounds left.
By the end of the game, he had still at least half his army left, and my only models were 3 chaos spawn hiding on an objective. The score was almost close, if he didnt max out 2 of his secondaries through killing my crap.
Overall feels that death guard are pretty survivable, but their damage output (at least against marines) is still pretty pitiful. But I guess why compare anything to marines in 8th lol.
im happy to hear that ppls start to figure that Mortarion is NOT so overpowered and not a must include, anyway he needs to be played a bit different than in 8th, now he is most a force multiplier, used in/with support of other units, with cloud of flies and decent terrain shouldn't be so easy remove 10 posessed 2 drones and 3-5 spawns, and still have mortarion hitting on weak enemy sides (10 primaris in any case, are out of reach for him now), or deny the center of table. Anyway im quite sure that DG will NOT make the cut in 9th, playable, mid competitive but nothing that can shake the meta, imho.
This is why I believe that 3 PBCs are better than 1 Morty
Agree, same for me 2-3 pbc are needed, the list im actually play dont have Mortarion but 2 pbc+16 termies instead (10 blight and 2x3 ds)
Interesting that someone can have such different experiences in game. I just played ultramarines and the game felt un-losable, Bottom of the 3 my opponent conceded after G-man and his 3 redemptors where dead and I was up 35 points. I wasn’t running morty and my OP did make some mistakes like running too many intercessors and allowed me to dictate where fights happened, but I felt like I had a large cushion to win that game. Makes me think morty might be a liability in that matchup.
Here’s my current list for mono. Still soup is better until big bird gets nerfed, but I’m expecting that to happen soon. Plan here is to get mortal wounds out the wazoo and out muscle melee armies. Just have to hope no shooting army gives me too much trouble. Might also want cut some
Upgrades as well.
^like that list a lot. I might try a variation on that myself but I'll prob drop a PBC for something as they're not doing much for me recently.
Couple of things, the lord of contagion and Tallyman only buff <plague company>. It isn't a problem going the other way as Typhus buffs Death Guard so can happily be in a separate plague company and the Blightspawn is only affecting enemy units but it might be worth moving your deathshroud into the vanguard so you don't have to remember that they can't be buffed by your LOC or tally. Unless I'm missing something that made you choose to do it this way?
Second thing was, what secondaries are you running with this list? While we stand?
In my experience I usually have the buff model following one or two dedicated units around, so I rarely run into the issue of a different plague companies being eligible for the buff.
While we stand really works well if you run lots of terminators, I usually get 10VP out of it if I'm a bit careful with not throwing them at units which blend them.
PBC's are auto-takes for me (generally two) largely because SM Eradicators are so stupidly dangerous, and every Marine player owns and runs them, functionally 100% of the time.
Being able to take out a crutch early helps win the psychological game, and has a value all its own.
I've just found whenever I drop the strat on a PBC I then roll a 1 for number of shots. I miss or fail to wound with at least one of the entropy cannons without fail too so they just seem to be incredibly swingy.
I appreciate that's anecdotally bad fortune, but even if you roll the big 6 for number of shots you'll statistically only kill a single eradicator without the strat. That's a hell of a lot of points to deal with a single unit, I know they are really nasty but still.
If they're starting on the board I think I'd rather take my chances, wait until they emerge, probably lose something like a drone and then hit them with a Contemptor which should wipe the unit in one go.
Anyone tried souping in CSM yet?
1 cheap Lord & 1 Sorcerer or 1 Prince instead with prescience might be a way to improve the dakka of three PBC a little bit.
Popping the PBC strat + hitting on 2s rerolling ones with one of them each turn sounds decent.
At least until CSM get their codex.
Abaddon303 wrote: I've just found whenever I drop the strat on a PBC I then roll a 1 for number of shots. I miss or fail to wound with at least one of the entropy cannons without fail too so they just seem to be incredibly swingy.
I appreciate that's anecdotally bad fortune, but even if you roll the big 6 for number of shots you'll statistically only kill a single eradicator without the strat. That's a hell of a lot of points to deal with a single unit, I know they are really nasty but still.
If they're starting on the board I think I'd rather take my chances, wait until they emerge, probably lose something like a drone and then hit them with a Contemptor which should wipe the unit in one go.
I feel that the role of PBCs isn't to demolish your opponent's army. DG are not a leaf blower sort of army. The PBCs are there to engage your opponent's artillery in a shooting duel for the whole game and keep them busy. It doesn't matter how many PBCs survive till turn 5, as long as they kept your opponent's heavy support busy the whole game so that they don't shoot the rest of your army. The PBC guns are definitely swingy. But if they are there firing the whole game, it evens out.
The entropy cannons are the ones that do the big damage when they hit and get through. The mortar is more of a terror weapon. It targets the fragile units hiding behind obscuring terrain thinking they are safe and reminds them that they are not safe. This makes the PBC a big target, which it is happy to be because it is a tanky boy.
So like for example, a squad of bikes and attack bikes hiding behind obscuring terrain. Your PBCs rain mortar on them and they lose one or two bikes. The damage won't demolish a whole unit, but its the psycological attack. Suddenly, he feels that he has to do something with his bikes, or take out your PBCs, because if he just stays there, they will just keep on being whittled down by your mortars. So he risks moving them out to take a pot shot at your PBC, and then that exposes the bikes to get shot at directly by the entropy cannons or other guns.
Consider this. If you had no PBCs keeping their heavy support busy in an artillery duel, then their heavy support will target the next most tanky unit in your army. And that's likely to be your terminators, or maybe your FBD if you are running those. I rather they shoot their heavy guns at my PBCs the whole game in the end. Because its the terminators and my other units that will take the mid field objectives to help me win the game. The PBCs are literally expendable (unless they are chosen as the secondary "while we stand we fight".
Salt donkey wrote:Interesting that someone can have such different experiences in game. I just played ultramarines and the game felt un-losable, Bottom of the 3 my opponent conceded after G-man and his 3 redemptors where dead and I was up 35 points. I wasn’t running morty and my OP did make some mistakes like running too many intercessors and allowed me to dictate where fights happened, but I felt like I had a large cushion to win that game. Makes me think morty might be a liability in that matchup.
Let me give some context. This was the 3rd game against this marine player, and while I won the first 2 games, it was mostly off his target priority being bad/just not knowing how to play against death guard. By this game, he realized that targeting morty was a bait and it was more important to kill the rest of my stuff. Which he easily did. Im curious as to what you used to kill his redemptors? Morty was the only thing of mine that was able to kill one. Even a daemon prince failed to kill one, as it turns out having disgusting resilient on a dread makes it hard to kill lol. Did your burst crawlers do the damage?
It feels like if the opponent doesn't know how to engage death guard, we can win off objectives, but if they play right and target fire our troops, then there isn't much we can do. Terminators still are not super killy, despite their insane resilience. (Talking basically strictly about facing marines still). Fleshmower drones are good, but onlt against their intended target, t4 (->3) troops.
I do still think mortarion is strong, regardless if he is auto include or not. And if your facing marines, giving morty the No overwatch/no rerolls aura is CRAZY good. Worth it just to see my marine opponent go red in the cheeks when he realized he couldnt reroll literally every dice like he normally does haha.
On the contrary, I think droning is not very good against marines. By the time I was in range, he already had moved towards the mid of the table, and halfing that move did almost nothing to change his game plan.
Grotrebel wrote:Anyone tried souping in CSM yet?
In my list I ran a Chaos marine sorceror to give warptime to morty.... unfortunately he failed his powers and then got shot as his meat shields got removed.
Abaddon303 wrote: I've just found whenever I drop the strat on a PBC I then roll a 1 for number of shots. I miss or fail to wound with at least one of the entropy cannons without fail too so they just seem to be incredibly swingy.
I appreciate that's anecdotally bad fortune, but even if you roll the big 6 for number of shots you'll statistically only kill a single eradicator without the strat. That's a hell of a lot of points to deal with a single unit, I know they are really nasty but still.
If they're starting on the board I think I'd rather take my chances, wait until they emerge, probably lose something like a drone and then hit them with a Contemptor which should wipe the unit in one go.
I feel that the role of PBCs isn't to demolish your opponent's army. DG are not a leaf blower sort of army. The PBCs are there to engage your opponent's artillery in a shooting duel for the whole game and keep them busy. It doesn't matter how many PBCs survive till turn 5, as long as they kept your opponent's heavy support busy the whole game so that they don't shoot the rest of your army. The PBC guns are definitely swingy. But if they are there firing the whole game, it evens out.
The entropy cannons are the ones that do the big damage when they hit and get through. The mortar is more of a terror weapon. It targets the fragile units hiding behind obscuring terrain thinking they are safe and reminds them that they are not safe. This makes the PBC a big target, which it is happy to be because it is a tanky boy.
So like for example, a squad of bikes and attack bikes hiding behind obscuring terrain. Your PBCs rain mortar on them and they lose one or two bikes. The damage won't demolish a whole unit, but its the psycological attack. Suddenly, he feels that he has to do something with his bikes, or take out your PBCs, because if he just stays there, they will just keep on being whittled down by your mortars. So he risks moving them out to take a pot shot at your PBC, and then that exposes the bikes to get shot at directly by the entropy cannons or other guns.
Consider this. If you had no PBCs keeping their heavy support busy in an artillery duel, then their heavy support will target the next most tanky unit in your army. And that's likely to be your terminators, or maybe your FBD if you are running those. I rather they shoot their heavy guns at my PBCs the whole game in the end. Because its the terminators and my other units that will take the mid field objectives to help me win the game. The PBCs are literally expendable (unless they are chosen as the secondary "while we stand we fight".
Hmm, interesting. mortarion may actually be advantageous in a DG vs DG match, because DG is usually not Shooty enough to threaten Mortarion.
I mean, I don't mean to be a dick but the idea of some kind of artillery duel is laughable. If your opponent wants it dead it will die pretty quickly. It's definitely not going to draw your opponents artillery for five turns. I'm actually struggling to think what sort of artillery people are taking these days, most anti tank boils down to a multi melta in the face these days. If you are trading long shots these days, a single demolisher tank commander will likely take it out in one go, a unit of Lascannon havocs with Abaddon stood next to them will probably cripple it if they're sensible with damage rerolls.
The ignore LOS is nice, but as you say, it's good for picking up soft targets that are hiding, so S8 -2 2D just seems overkill compared to something like a whirlwind doing twice as many shots for 2/3 the price. And I don't rate whirlwinds either.
I just feel that 175pts is a hell of a lot of points for something that very often doesn't put a single wound on your opponents army. For the same price you can have a Contemptor putting out around 4 MWs at 45" plus a couple of missiles hitting on 2s.
This link was a match between Richard Sieglar playing ad mech vs Nick Nanavati playing the new Death Guard. Both of them are competitive warhammer 40k players who have attended many tournaments.
So Nick had 2 PBCs and 1 contemptor dreadnaught facing off against 3 Skorpius distintegrators (ferrumite cannon) and 5 ironstriders (all cognis lascannons).
That's 500 points of deathguard heavy shootng vs 840 points of dedicated tank busting.
By the end of the game, Nick had 1 Contemptor and 1 PBC still alive facing 2 Skorpius disintegrators still alive. The point I am trying to make is that Nick's 2 PBCs and 1 Contemptor worth 500 points kept 840 points of admech busy till the end of the game. And admech is one of the most shootiest army out there.
If this was in a void, it would be over by turn 2. But there is obscuring terrain around. (If you are playing with zero obscuring terrain, you are not playing what a proper matched play terrain would be like).
So play cat and mouse for the whole game with your opponent's heavy shooting. That was my point. Just look at the video for some reference.
Hmm, interesting. mortarion may actually be advantageous in a DG vs DG match, because DG is usually not Shooty enough to threaten Mortarion
.
hardly morty does much against a DG, he cant remove the bunch of troops (poxes and/or Pm) or termies, he get into never ending melee. Still ppls believe that mortarion can be neutered only by firepower....10 Bl with spawn and biologus are unchargeable my mortarion, just an example.
Marine lists will change to fit new DG, unsure if PBC are really mandatory, usually i run anyway 2 of them.
Ah ok. I was just wondering because the top 2 DG lists both ran Mortarion and they didn't lose except against other DG lists. So I wondered if Mortarion made the difference in a mirror matchup.
Abaddon303 wrote: ^like that list a lot. I might try a variation on that myself but I'll prob drop a PBC for something as they're not doing much for me recently.
Couple of things, the lord of contagion and Tallyman only buff <plague company>. It isn't a problem going the other way as Typhus buffs Death Guard so can happily be in a separate plague company and the Blightspawn is only affecting enemy units but it might be worth moving your deathshroud into the vanguard so you don't have to remember that they can't be buffed by your LOC or tally. Unless I'm missing something that made you choose to do it this way?
Second thing was, what secondaries are you running with this list? While we stand?
Indeed I am running while we stand, one of the DG specific ones depending on mission, and often times banners since characters can raise.
Domination and engage on all fronts are also options.
Also if no one answered you yet, the deathshroud have to be in the harbingers detachment in order to let me take the poxwalkers there. At least according to BattleScribe, I haven’t double checked the book yet.
Also what are you using instead of the PBC. I agree they are lackluster, but DgG need efficient long range options and the Mortar has small upside being able indirect fire gun.
This link was a match between Richard Sieglar playing ad mech vs Nick Nanavati playing the new Death Guard. Both of them are competitive warhammer 40k players who have attended many tournaments.
So Nick had 2 PBCs and 1 contemptor dreadnaught facing off against 3 Skorpius distintegrators (ferrumite cannon) and 5 ironstriders (all cognis lascannons).
That's 500 points of deathguard heavy shootng vs 840 points of dedicated tank busting.
By the end of the game, Nick had 1 Contemptor and 1 PBC still alive facing 2 Skorpius disintegrators still alive. The point I am trying to make is that Nick's 2 PBCs and 1 Contemptor worth 500 points kept 840 points of admech busy till the end of the game. And admech is one of the most shootiest army out there.
If this was in a void, it would be over by turn 2. But there is obscuring terrain around. (If you are playing with zero obscuring terrain, you are not playing what a proper matched play terrain would be like).
So play cat and mouse for the whole game with your opponent's heavy shooting. That was my point. Just look at the video for some reference.
I haven't watched the video but I'll try to tomorrow. I would say tho the disintegrators are not great against DG.
I reckon if a disintegrator fired at a PBC for 5 turns it would just about wreck it. Granted that's a decent bit of firepower that the PBC has drawn. But if the PBC wasn't there and instead the disintegrator was free to fire into your Blightlords for instance, it would just about kill 3 terminators throughout the course of the game. That's not accounting for the termis potentially getting cover or miasma etc.
So I guess the question I'm asking of the PBC, is why draw fire away from your termis, isn't it better value to just take more and let your opponent shoot them...
Not having access to FW Datasheets at the moment, what makes Contemptors, tempting? Do they gain any of the Plague Company benefits, despite having FW's brand of not-quite update rules?
ArcaneHorror wrote: What's the best way to get possessed up the field without a transport? There is the use of cover, but I can't count on that.
Soup with a Gnarlmaw and WB or TS Warptimer, you’ll usually get a deep charge T1
lost -1T is a thing to ponder, soup stuff is not always a big deal.
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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Not having access to FW Datasheets at the moment, what makes Contemptors, tempting? Do they gain any of the Plague Company benefits, despite having FW's brand of not-quite update rules?
they get, as said above, the buffs, and they are quite "cheap" maybe ponder play 2 of them instead PBC, not being core is a big limit.
Contemptor with volkite puts out really reliable damage due to rate of fire and MW output. Doesn't really care about toughness, armour, invulnerable saves etc. Buffed by a Tallyman will basically put at least 5w on anything you point it at every turn at 45" and it's reasonably tanky considering it has the range to stay out of the worst of trouble
Multimelta and chainfist is also a nice loadout. Obviously anything carrying a multimelta at the moment is decent, it moves 8" so can get in close reasonably easy and the chainfist does flat 4 damage. With the missiles it's 180pts and ends up with a very similar output to a redemptor dread which obviously currently are flavour of the month.
The redemptor has 13w while the Contemptor has 9 so doesn't degrade and has a 5+ inv. To be honest if I was playing loyalists I'd take the redemptor but I think they're pretty comparable.
Abaddon303 wrote: Contemptor with volkite puts out really reliable damage due to rate of fire and MW output. Doesn't really care about toughness, armour, invulnerable saves etc. Buffed by a Tallyman will basically put at least 5w on anything you point it at every turn at 45" and it's reasonably tanky considering it has the range to stay out of the worst of trouble
Multimelta and chainfist is also a nice loadout. Obviously anything carrying a multimelta at the moment is decent, it moves 8" so can get in close reasonably easy and the chainfist does flat 4 damage. With the missiles it's 180pts and ends up with a very similar output to a redemptor dread which obviously currently are flavour of the month.
The redemptor has 13w while the Contemptor has 9 so doesn't degrade and has a 5+ inv. To be honest if I was playing loyalists I'd take the redemptor but I think they're pretty comparable.
Never a fan of melee dreads(hellbrutes). They are rather vulnerable to melta, and dont't really provide anything which DG lacks.
If Despoiled ground secondary is picked, you would like to keep one BUBONIC astartes unit stay in your own deployment zone. This role is perfect for a shooty contemptor.
Abaddon303 wrote: Contemptor with volkite puts out really reliable damage due to rate of fire and MW output. Doesn't really care about toughness, armour, invulnerable saves etc. Buffed by a Tallyman will basically put at least 5w on anything you point it at every turn at 45" and it's reasonably tanky considering it has the range to stay out of the worst of trouble
Multimelta and chainfist is also a nice loadout. Obviously anything carrying a multimelta at the moment is decent, it moves 8" so can get in close reasonably easy and the chainfist does flat 4 damage. With the missiles it's 180pts and ends up with a very similar output to a redemptor dread which obviously currently are flavour of the month.
The redemptor has 13w while the Contemptor has 9 so doesn't degrade and has a 5+ inv. To be honest if I was playing loyalists I'd take the redemptor but I think they're pretty comparable.
Never a fan of melee dreads(hellbrutes). They are rather vulnerable to melta, and dont't really provide anything which DG lacks.
If Despoiled ground secondary is picked, you would like to keep one BUBONIC astartes unit stay in your own deployment zone. This role is perfect for a shooty contemptor.
I mean it's more mixed than just melee and provides some serious anti-tank which DG arent exactly swimming in. If you compare it to a MBH it has the exact same defensive profile so no more vulnerable. The difference between the two is for 40pts more, the Contemptor kicks out far superior melee and an extra missile, plus it can get core buffs
Abaddon303 wrote: Contemptor with volkite puts out really reliable damage due to rate of fire and MW output. Doesn't really care about toughness, armour, invulnerable saves etc. Buffed by a Tallyman will basically put at least 5w on anything you point it at every turn at 45" and it's reasonably tanky considering it has the range to stay out of the worst of trouble
Multimelta and chainfist is also a nice loadout. Obviously anything carrying a multimelta at the moment is decent, it moves 8" so can get in close reasonably easy and the chainfist does flat 4 damage. With the missiles it's 180pts and ends up with a very similar output to a redemptor dread which obviously currently are flavour of the month.
The redemptor has 13w while the Contemptor has 9 so doesn't degrade and has a 5+ inv. To be honest if I was playing loyalists I'd take the redemptor but I think they're pretty comparable.
Never a fan of melee dreads(hellbrutes). They are rather vulnerable to melta, and dont't really provide anything which DG lacks.
If Despoiled ground secondary is picked, you would like to keep one BUBONIC astartes unit stay in your own deployment zone. This role is perfect for a shooty contemptor.
I mean it's more mixed than just melee and provides some serious anti-tank which DG arent exactly swimming in. If you compare it to a MBH it has the exact same defensive profile so no more vulnerable. The difference between the two is for 40pts more, the Contemptor kicks out far superior melee and an extra missile, plus it can get core buffs
If any player still want to bring MBH to a tournament, he would always active the "Belching fumes" strategem when needed. That would reduce 50% the output of a multi-melta. The difference between the two could be up to 100%.
Hmm, this is true. You actually inspired me to revisit that strat, it's actually pretty strong. When I first read it, I thought you used it reactively against a single attack.
So all multi meltas and twin Lascannons etc get half shots? How does that affect eradicators double shooting? It says reduce the number of attacks with that weapon by one...
Abaddon303 wrote: Hmm, this is true. You actually inspired me to revisit that strat, it's actually pretty strong. When I first read it, I thought you used it reactively against a single attack.
So all multi meltas and twin Lascannons etc get half shots? How does that affect eradicators double shooting? It says reduce the number of attacks with that weapon by one...
Unfortunately, it don't work against eradicators. Eradicators' ability is "shoot twice with heavy 1(assault1) weapon".
Contemptors in the new Forgeworld book can take two 45" twin volkite culverins which gives you 16 shots at S6 0AP 2D but every unmodified wound of 6 is a MW.
Sheer weight of fire means you are likely to get at least 2/4 regular damage through a save plus an average of 3 MWs. Not bad consistently killing a couple of Custodes etc at 45"
Contemptors in the new Forgeworld book can take two 45" twin volkite culverins which gives you 16 shots at S6 0AP 2D but every unmodified wound of 6 is a MW.
Sheer weight of fire means you are likely to get at least 2/4 regular damage through a save plus an average of 3 MWs. Not bad consistently killing a couple of Custodes etc at 45"
Edit: Yikes... I didn't even notice that FW issued a new book. A lot of stuff I once loved is going back on the shelf... Sorry my extremely expensive Deredeo and Leviathan. :-p
So I played a 2k game against my buddy's blood angels yesterday. We had to call it at the end of turn 3 since the shop was closing. I won 37-27 but if we had continued I was poised to start gaining tons of primary points and max Spread the Sickness.
My dice were either fire or 1s, but most of the bad rolls were negligible. The worst rolls I had were my turn 2 charges and the Tallyman's CP ability. I failed charge rolls for 4 different units, a 5th unit made the charge with the command reroll on turn 2. A few I could understand since the Deathshrouds just came out of deepstrike, but Morty and the Bloat Drone only needed like 5 kr 6 inches. Poxwalkers did a surprising amount of work. Mutant Strain with just a unit of 10 poxwalkers netted 2 dead lightning claw terminators, I took 2 mortals but it balanced out since those 2 came back. Deathshrouds blended everything they touched as did Mortarion. A plagueburst crawler got charged by a 10 man death company squad with a couple of power fists and survived 2 round of combat thanks to the new disgustingly resilient. Tallyman got me 1 CP out of the whole game. Since I held my 2 units of Deathshrouds, 1 unit of Blightlords, and Lord of Virulence in deepstrike the Tallyman and Mortarion's abilities to buff core units was completely unused for 2 turns. I almost want to run a 10 plague marine squad just to justify the Tallyman a bit.
tallyman work great with a big bunch of BL, no need to deepstrike them if you have some deathshrouds, a full 10 man marine squad with bolters+blighlauncher is ok with tallyman. BA is one of armies that actually suffer DG, they have to close up to you so they get hit by all your debuffing and if you have a vats blightspawn is super hard for them successfully charge something.
Impression about PBC? im not so sure they are needed so much.
blackmage wrote: tallyman work great with a big bunch of BL, no need to deepstrike them if you have some deathshrouds, a full 10 man marine squad with bolters+blighlauncher is ok with tallyman. BA is one of armies that actually suffer DG, they have to close up to you so they get hit by all your debuffing and if you have a vats blightspawn is super hard for them successfully charge something.
Impression about PBC? im not so sure they are needed so much.
I deep struck the Blightlords with the Lord of Virulence to try and max Despoiled Ground, which I did. If I didn't run Mortarion I probably would've run a 10 man Blightlord Terminator unit. I didn't run the Blightspawn, because I forgot him. PBCs did harass a few units with the mortar cannon and soften them up for other units to charge them. One of the PBC tied up a scary unit of Death Company with the help of a squad of Poxwalkers. I lost the Crawler, but keeping that unit tied up saved my backfield. I think the PBCs aren't TERRIBLY scary with the d6 mortar shots, but not needing line of sight does force people to deal with them or lose their backfield objective campers. I think 2 are good, 3 might be over doing it unless you want a really shooting list.
I'd also like to point out that with Spread the Sickness, your opponent can't decontaminate the objectives you've already hit which is pretty nice. Not amazing, but worth noting.
Anyone had any luck with running a flamer heavy list and Mortarions son's?
Im thinking 10 Marines with 2 Spewers and 2 Belchers. Put them in a Rhino and pop the 2dmg stratagem when firing. Overwhelming generosity is there if you need some extra range, and Eternal Hatred aswell for that sweet +1 to wound.
4d6 auto hits with dmg2.
Alternatively, deepstrike 6 Deathshrouds with an additional gauntlet on the champ. 7d6 hits with dmg 2.
I'm inclined to think the flamers take too much set up for not huge gains. You're tied into a not great plague company that I'm not sure is outweighed by the value of autohits when you can easily get a 2+ to hit and exploding 6s on a unit of marines.
You're averaging 3.5 hits but the spewers and belcher hits aren't particularly high quality and have short range when your bolters/b launchers/plasma can be doing work from further out.
Granted you can extend the range and give 2 damage but that's more CP being spent when you don't know how well you'll roll for hits and still need to get wounds through with only 0/-1ap. You're not gonna be getting masses of 2D wounds through on anything that matters.
I'd also say DG don't really have an issue causing damage at short range, even PMs set up for shooting are still nasty in melee so if you're under 12" away from something you can hurt with flamers you can almost certainly hurt it in melee and you're just gonna make your charge roll higher.
I guess overwatch and the FBS would make the unit really nasty to charge but relies on your opponent being a little silly choosing to charge such a unit.
I dunno, maybe they can work but I think I'd rather spend the 30pts for the flamers on something else tbh..
Brymm wrote: Which stratagem? The 2D one does work on the Lord of Virulence. It only doesn’t hit the big ones, the plague spitters from Drones and Crawlers.
Not true. Read it again:
Until the end of the phase, plague belchers, plaguespurt gauntlets and plague spewers...
The Lord of Virulence is armed with a twin plague spewer, rather than two separate plague spewers, so it does not apply to him.
Brymm wrote: Which stratagem? The 2D one does work on the Lord of Virulence. It only doesn’t hit the big ones, the plague spitters from Drones and Crawlers.
Not true. Read it again:
Until the end of the phase, plague belchers, plaguespurt gauntlets and plague spewers...
The Lord of Virulence is armed with a twin plague spewer, rather than two separate plague spewers, so it does not apply to him.
Yeah quite possibly, although they might just be trying to avoid the existence of a 2D6 S6 AP-2 D2 flamer. I emailed 40kFAQ about it myself a week or so ago & would encourage others to do the same. At the moment though, RAW, it clearly doesn't apply to the LoV
Abaddon303 wrote: I'm inclined to think the flamers take too much set up for not huge gains. You're tied into a not great plague company that I'm not sure is outweighed by the value of autohits when you can easily get a 2+ to hit and exploding 6s on a unit of marines.
You're averaging 3.5 hits but the spewers and belcher hits aren't particularly high quality and have short range when your bolters/b launchers/plasma can be doing work from further out.
Granted you can extend the range and give 2 damage but that's more CP being spent when you don't know how well you'll roll for hits and still need to get wounds through with only 0/-1ap. You're not gonna be getting masses of 2D wounds through on anything that matters.
I'd also say DG don't really have an issue causing damage at short range, even PMs set up for shooting are still nasty in melee so if you're under 12" away from something you can hurt with flamers you can almost certainly hurt it in melee and you're just gonna make your charge roll higher.
I guess overwatch and the FBS would make the unit really nasty to charge but relies on your opponent being a little silly choosing to charge such a unit.
I dunno, maybe they can work but I think I'd rather spend the 30pts for the flamers on something else tbh..
Thank you very much for this reply. Lots of valid points.
So Dark Angels codex looks very strong. Erm, Any suggestions how DG can handle deathwing terminators and bladeguard with obsec, DR. andpermanent transhuman ?
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tokugawa wrote: Which hull gun do you prefer on PBC, slugger or volley gun?
Slugger, but that's because I tend to run mine with entropy cannons so they tend to be further away, so I like the range 36 of the sluggers.
By the way, I got a question on deathshrouds. Do you guys tend to run them up the board or deep strike them in ? So far I ran mine up the board. But actually, small units of 3 only cost 150 points and are a huge threat to the backfield if we are able to deep strike them in strategic locations. It would need to be in a list that is able to clear out the chaff that might bubble up, but the tactical options are interesting. Plus it opens up some secondaries we can take.
They are almost literally the only thing we would consider deep striking in because blightlords shooting from range is good enough such that we might as well start Blightlords on the board turn 1. The only other thing we might deep strike in are a LOC or LOV.
Eldenfirefly wrote: So Dark Angels codex looks very strong. Erm, Any suggestions how DG can handle deathwing terminators and bladeguard with obsec, DR. andpermanent transhuman ?
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tokugawa wrote: Which hull gun do you prefer on PBC, slugger or volley gun?
Slugger, but that's because I tend to run mine with entropy cannons so they tend to be further away, so I like the range 36 of the sluggers.
By the way, I got a question on deathshrouds. Do you guys tend to run them up the board or deep strike them in ? So far I ran mine up the board. But actually, small units of 3 only cost 150 points and are a huge threat to the backfield if we are able to deep strike them in strategic locations. It would need to be in a list that is able to clear out the chaff that might bubble up, but the tactical options are interesting. Plus it opens up some secondaries we can take.
They are almost literally the only thing we would consider deep striking in because blightlords shooting from range is good enough such that we might as well start Blightlords on the board turn 1. The only other thing we might deep strike in are a LOC or LOV.
Tarpit them with poxwalkers and focus on missions?
If the DA players just want his Terminator unit "not to die", then they won't die.
A full strength Deathwing unit with shields(1+/4++)could also have Pennant(-1 dmg, just their own Disgusting resilence), Apothecary(6+++FNP, heal up to 6 wounds per turn, revive 1 model per turn),and models in 2nd rank(not in engagement range) cannot attack them in melee, and blahblahblah... This "deathstar" may cost 600+ pts. 600pts of anything you could find in DG codex, in any combination, can't kill this blob in one turn.Not matter what they are, BLord, Deathshrould, Morty...can't kill this deathstar. But they have a very high possiblity to kill your 600pts in the next turn.
But this deathstar is not "auto-win button", it cost huge resources, if the DA player want to keep the HQs nearby, maybe 800-900pts would move together surrounding 1 unit. This unit is slow, and don't have much shooting. It would easily occupy an objective, but a smart opponet may stop them to do more works.
Eldenfirefly wrote: So Dark Angels codex looks very strong. Erm, Any suggestions how DG can handle deathwing terminators and bladeguard with obsec, DR. andpermanent transhuman ?
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tokugawa wrote: Which hull gun do you prefer on PBC, slugger or volley gun?
Slugger, but that's because I tend to run mine with entropy cannons so they tend to be further away, so I like the range 36 of the sluggers.
By the way, I got a question on deathshrouds. Do you guys tend to run them up the board or deep strike them in ? So far I ran mine up the board. But actually, small units of 3 only cost 150 points and are a huge threat to the backfield if we are able to deep strike them in strategic locations. It would need to be in a list that is able to clear out the chaff that might bubble up, but the tactical options are interesting. Plus it opens up some secondaries we can take.
They are almost literally the only thing we would consider deep striking in because blightlords shooting from range is good enough such that we might as well start Blightlords on the board turn 1. The only other thing we might deep strike in are a LOC or LOV.
As far as dark angles are concerned, mortal wounds are you’re best friend. Pyskers, plague skull, ally Tzeentch stuff ect are all great options. Also remember all the stratagems that can do mortal wounds if you can. We have a lot of those! Big one to remember is the poxwalker specific mortal wound trick. With harbingers it is quite possible for 100 points of poxwalkers to kill 3-4 terminators. Just remember dark angles have a strat to make it so only one rank of the unit can attack.
Mortals. It takes a lot of paying attention but we have ways to dish out mortals in the command phase, your opponents movement phase, your movement phase, the psychic phase, combat, the shooting phase, when your vehicles die, when your characters die, when your characters have a relic, when your poxwalkers attack,... there is in my opinion too many to keep track of, as I have been working on a mortal wounds list using the Wretched with Typhus/plague casters and poxwalkers with your normal DG support of terminators and PBCs.
Side note, if you can reliably get the target you want dead in contagion range of Eater Plague, sending in 40 bolter shots with rerolls to hit causes an awful lot of auto wounds that can at least force saves, which bypasses the permanent transhuman bull crap (and the most busted thing about that book). But then again they are terminators, so unless you’re playing with Morty to give them AP-1 also, you’re not even killing a dude on average, even with 12 auto wounds, he’s still saving 10 on a 2+...
Do you think 5 melee marines + Biologus is too small a squad for Terrax assault? I'd hate to sink too much points inside as I'm afraid the drill is too easy to DS block, and 5-man units are just as good for the grenade strat as 10-man units, although they become rather useless after losing 6 wounds. Also the drill packs enough potential punch to be considered a goodish purchase by itself, even though it seems unlikely to survive past it's arrival round.
AarresaariAarre wrote: Do you think 5 melee marines + Biologus is too small a squad for Terrax assault? I'd hate to sink too much points inside as I'm afraid the drill is too easy to DS block, and 5-man units are just as good for the grenade strat as 10-man units, although they become rather useless after losing 6 wounds. Also the drill packs enough potential punch to be considered a goodish purchase by itself, even though it seems unlikely to survive past it's arrival round.
I agree with you, if you are mainly using it for the grenade strat, you don't need that many. Alternatively, you might want to consider now though if the points might be better going into a fuller PM squad. A biologus is 65 points. Thats at least 3 PM. Or you could get 2 more PM in your squad plus better weapons like flails, great clearver, or double melta guns. A 7 or more man PM squad that charges out and wrecks face, then consolidates into something else is a lot scarier than a 5 man PM with biologus that melts one unit with grenades and then gets shot the next turn.
I won't say DP is a weak unit. But to make him hard-hitting, you need to invest on combat relics and traits(surppating plate, hulking physique, rotten constitution, etc. ), instead of ultility ones. However, the DG ultility relics and traits are too good to abandon...
I just found in my early games of 9th, where characters are a little harder to protect and there's so much melta flying around, that something like a DP with wings, that's always been great for leaping out from behind a screen and obliterating things, was increasingly hard to keep alive.
HQs are at a premium, lords/DPs even more so with the new codex, so using them as cruise missiles isn't as effective a strategy, and i was finding i was using relics and warlord traits just to make the DP more survivable.
Add the slight nerf to suppurating plate and the prohibitive cost of wings and I just felt that it was a lot of extra points and CP being spent to get something that was still not as tanky as a regular LOC. The DP might hit a little harder and might be quicker but with the massive improvement in our core infantry that wasn't necessarily something i needed anymore. Being a force multiplier and advancing up with big blobs of identical speed terminators seems much more effective.
The 2+/4++ base save for the LOC is vastly superior defensively. He's also infantry, so if he looks like he'll be left exposed after combat you can sometimes be fortunate with pile in and consolidation to maybe get a cover bonus for him to protect against being lit up by small arms fire plus he's easier to hide.
From an offensive point of view, the infantry keyword means he can charge through walls, he also gets Inexorable Advance so he can ignore terrain. If we are agreed the DP's wings are too expensive that means he's getting hit with terrain modifiers and has to go around buildings. As infantry and a terminator you can, if you need to, buff the LOC with +1 to hit and +1 to wound strats and cast putrescent vitality on him.
All in all, I'm at a point where I'm just not even considering DPs anymore they just seem like such a vastly inferior choice. The more important question for me is whether I go with a regular LOC or Typhus.
Typhus is an extra 40pts and unfortunately you lose the ability to take a relic or WLT. He does, however, have a mastercrafted manreaper and an extra attack which I think is worth a relic. His destroyer hive kicking out mortal wounds, the situational boost to Poxwalkers and the fact he can buff any plaguecompany could be considered a rather mediocre equivalent to a WLT. Of course, you can still put the relic and WLT you would have put on a regular LOC on another character so it's really all upside.
Finally for the extra 40pts you are getting a 2 cast/1 deny psyker rolled in which i think is a bargain, a single sorcerer doesn't feel like enough generally so it's great to have that level of psychic coverage from two HQs.
Yeah, I am leaning towards Typhus as well these days. DG can dish out a surprising amount of mortal wounds damage during the psychic as well as other phases.
Was so good against the Nightbringer the other night. I failed to get Miasma off and had to just body his charge into a unit of 5 Deathshroud, only the champion survived on a single wound (couldn't use the Surgeon's FNP so I guess he must have rolled a three for damage) so he fell back to be healed.
Typhus could have done his MWs in command phase (i was unfortunately just out of range for this and my opponent didn't consolidate quite far enough), my sorcerer used the skull relic in the movement phase. I whiffed in the psychic and only took a wound off but it was still reasonably trivial to finish him in the shoot and fight phase.
The ability to fairly easily take wounds in 5 different phases meant there was enough redundancy for it to be a very simple task in the end and i could have forced the issue if i had needed to (reroll a smite etc). I still lost 4 Deathshroud however but i thought that wasn't too awful a sacrifice...
I think people are sleeping on how much damage 6 Deathshroud do with a biologus Putrifier using the arch contaminator warlord trait does in an inexorable detachment.
50 attacks, hitting on 2s, wounding on 4s, rerolling all failed 2s, every 6 to wound does a mortal wound at -2 AP is sick. It will kill around 8 of those Dark Angel terminators with their fancy 1+ save and transhuman. That is before their flamers!
A unit of 10 Blightlords kills 7 in combat before their bolters. Just make sure you are taking the right support characters for the job.
I don't think you want to run a squad of 6 because of blast.
5 is finde.
Also if they deepstrike it's hard to get Support characters there.
Deepstriking 3 x 3 or going for 3+5 will see a lot of lists and they are great on their own as well.
IMO the only support character deathshroud need is the foul blightspawn with relic, because if another melee deathstar gets the jump on them, you are losing a lot of points.
Jidmah wrote: IMO the only support character deathshroud need is the foul blightspawn with relic, because if another melee deathstar gets the jump on them, you are losing a lot of points.
In most instances yes, but if you are facing the Dark Angels terminator blob you need the 12 extra mortal wounds. The foul blight spawn is also critical.
I just wanted to give the example of how 365pts of DG can own 600+ pts of Dark Angels with the right build.
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Grotrebel wrote: I don't think you want to run a squad of 6 because of blast.
5 is finde.
Also if they deepstrike it's hard to get Support characters there.
Deepstriking 3 x 3 or going for 3+5 will see a lot of lists and they are great on their own as well.
Jidmah wrote: IMO the only support character deathshroud need is the foul blightspawn with relic, because if another melee deathstar gets the jump on them, you are losing a lot of points.
In most instances yes, but if you are facing the Dark Angels terminator blob you need the 12 extra mortal wounds. The foul blight spawn is also critical.
I just wanted to give the example of how 365pts of DG can own 600+ pts of Dark Angels with the right build.
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Grotrebel wrote: I don't think you want to run a squad of 6 because of blast.
5 is finde.
Also if they deepstrike it's hard to get Support characters there.
Deepstriking 3 x 3 or going for 3+5 will see a lot of lists and they are great on their own as well.
One problem I am having is that, after a while, you start stacking too many of those support characters. They are great but they won't win you the game by themselves because they are support characters. You still need enough points in actual units that can do stuff. Each of the support characters are average 70 points or more. Take too many, and that is an entire Blightlords unit or 3 PM squads you could have taken instead.
blackmage wrote: Biologus+tallyman+spawn more or less 220pts, a toll i gladly pay, consider what they bring on the table.
In my last game against Space wolves I used the following:
-Tallyman with Tollkeeper
-Plague Surgeon with Living plague
-Blightspawn with Revolting Stench-vats
Tallyman was hanging around a squad of 10 plague marines with ranged weapons and las/mis-Helbrute. He contributed to the ranged damage all game and generated a few CP's. Absolutely an auto-include unit.
Plague Surgeon escorted Deathshroud and B-lords. His Living plague did absolutely nothing all game despite the fact that the game revolved around the massive close combat over central objective. I failed all Feel no pain rolls and managed to heal one B-lord of damage all game. Still gotta experiment more with this guy.
Blightspawn provides rather generous aura but most of the time I managed to somehow screw up his movement around the terminator units and he didn't play as pivotal role as I thought he would. His flamer with increased range proved to be his most useful impact as it was in the old codex. Needs more experimenting.
My plan for the next game is try Biologis with Arch-contaminator supporting Deathshroud. But I don't know if the Arch-contaminator is necessary since Deathshroud already wound almost everything with scything on a 3+ and cleaving on a 2+ rerolling 1's.
I actually find Arch-Contaminator still relevant just because of the amount of times you run into transhuman. I haven't come up against DA yet but it will be invaluable there too. 4+ with full rerolls is pretty much the same as 3+ rerolling 1s
Abaddon303 wrote: I actually find Arch-Contaminator still relevant just because of the amount of times you run into transhuman. I haven't come up against DA yet but it will be invaluable there too. 4+ with full rerolls is pretty much the same as 3+ rerolling 1s
Ah yes, somehow I managed to forget Transhuman physiology even as I'm on the receiving end of that stick every game.Great tip, thanks.
Some thoughts: In regards to taking more support characters, be careful about giving up too many points for the assassinate secondary.
Each one of those support characters can be 3VP to the opponent, and if your bringing morty + a battalion with 2 hqs + a couple of support characters and all of a sudden your list has 5+ characters, enabling your opponent to get close to, if not max out a secondary.
As for deamon prince vs LoC discussion, Im not sure if we should write off the DP yet.
35 point difference between the two for
+3" move, a better combat profile, +1 toughness, +2 wounds, +1 attack (2 if you include claw attack), and gets a psychic power.
I think those differences are pretty notable and a good deal for only 35 points.
Now the debate between typhus and a DP might be a little more of a debate, but I still don't think one is just strictly better.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Some thoughts: In regards to taking more support characters, be careful about giving up too many points for the assassinate secondary. Each one of those support characters can be 3VP to the opponent, and if your bringing morty + a battalion with 2 hqs + a couple of support characters and all of a sudden your list has 5+ characters, enabling your opponent to get close to, if not max out a secondary.
Not really though? If anything, assassinate is a trap choice against DG since at least two of those support characters are running with blocks of terminators and none of the lords are easy to kill. Anything near deathshroud can't be killed at all, not even by snipers. In games where you lose 5 characters you are probably getting tabled anyways, also causing you to fail while we stand and despoiled ground. At that point losing some more VP hardly matters. My most common casualty is usually my plague caster blowing himself up and one other support character which got sniped in some melee brawl situation.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Some thoughts: In regards to taking more support characters, be careful about giving up too many points for the assassinate secondary.
Each one of those support characters can be 3VP to the opponent, and if your bringing morty + a battalion with 2 hqs + a couple of support characters and all of a sudden your list has 5+ characters, enabling your opponent to get close to, if not max out a secondary.
As for deamon prince vs LoC discussion, Im not sure if we should write off the DP yet.
35 point difference between the two for
+3" move, a better combat profile, +1 toughness, +2 wounds, +1 attack (2 if you include claw attack), and gets a psychic power.
I think those differences are pretty notable and a good deal for only 35 points.
Now the debate between typhus and a DP might be a little more of a debate, but I still don't think one is just strictly better.
loc is more durable, 2+/4++, +3" contagion range... honestly i prefer a LoC
I was asking myself: what is your basic tactical approach for certain GT missions?
I can think of ways how to handle the 5-Marker-Missions (32-Sweep&Clear, 33-PrioTarget, 23-Scouring) ... and also 11-Retrieval Mission & 31-Overrun. Here one can concentrate the own army somehow on the battlefield.
But how do you guys approach the 6-Marker-Missions with Dawn-Of-War Deployment (21-Surround&Destroy, 12-Scorched Earth) where the battlefield is basically devided into two flanks with 3 markers each but the marker in the deployment zone quite far away from each other.
And what abot the 4-Marker-Mission (22-Battlelines)?
How do you deploy your armies (basically, of course also dependent on opponents army)?
What secondaries do you take?
Well I took a break from this forum and the hobby for a while due to IRL circumstances, but yesterday I finally got to play my first game with the new rules. It was less than ideal because my Codex still hasn't arrived yet and we had to look up rules online all the time and I kinda half-assed my army building. But I have to say, the book doesn't look half bad so far. Still not happy with the weird PM wargear restrictions and the loss of proper DR, but we look solid.
But yeah as outlined by others, secondaries still seem iffy to me. There don't seem to be any stand outs to me, and the book specific ones seem mediocre to me. Does anyone else have advice for them? And how are people taking their PM these days? I took mine in 10 man squads and they seemed fine but my local meta is kinda casual, and I'm still not sure how to equip them properly under the new rules.
It will take a lot more experimenting with secondaries. But grind them down seems to be a good one. Our units are hardy, so we should be able to kill off more units compared to the opponent killing our units each turn.
Domination for the 5 obj missions. Because we should be contesting and holding 3 obj out of 5 obj on the board. (If we are not, we are playing DG wrong).
Spread the sickness we need to kinda run some poxwalkers to get the efficiency out of it. But 9 points is decent and we only need to contaminate 3 obj for that.
The thing about secondaries, if we can get 8 to 10 on each secondary, thats great already. We shouldnt be aiming to get 15 on each secondary. Thats kind of aiming too high.
If we can get 10 on all three secondary, thats 30 points. And then 45 on primary, plus 10 for painting. Thats 85 points. If we still lose a game after scoring 85 points, I don't think I will feel too bad about that. lol
Sometimes it depends on matchup. If we have a big block of terminators we intend to move up the center that we know the opponent is not going to approach we can also maybe try for something like data intercept.
Need to play more games to experiment with various secondaries.
While I agree there are no definitive covers i think there are some secondaries we can definitely lean into. I have a few reasonably set options such as the above mentioned domination on any of the five objective missions.
I always tend to choose between WWSWF or Grind depending on the opponents list.
I generally avoid action based secondaries if I can, except spread the sickness on a 6 objective mission if I think I've got a solid chance of picking up 9pts. I don't take cultists and early game I want my stuff that can shoot to get shots off and my melee stuff to advance, apart from poxwalkers most of my units are too expensive to waste a turn doing actions.
So I'll take mission specific if it doesn't involve an action except maybe the scouring since you can pick up a bunch of points in one turn late game
Finally depending on opponents list, I'll take Titan hunters or assassinate if they look like they're giving up easy points.
blackmage wrote: there are NOT preset secondaries, depend by list, opponent and mission.
Would you mind going in detail on which objectives should be picked under which circumstances?
what i can say is...
-spread the sickness (if you have poxwalkers) is a must take in most cases, almost always it get you 9 points
-if you relay on big blocks of termies or Pm, while we stand we fight also grant decent amount of points
-despoiled ground is better than engage on all fronts for Dg, not alwys you can regularly score it early game, despolied ground consider how much durable DG is grant you point end game.
Those are 3 secondaries that are not much dependent from opponent/mission, as i said is difficult take as "the best" set of secondaries, there are too many variables, in my few games i always took spread the sickness and despoiled ground, the 3rd all depend by what im playing and against who.
I have found Despoiled ground to be completely useless.
I have even tabled my opponent and still scored 0 with it! The restrictions are just to restrictive, I doubt I will ever try this again.
Spread the sickness is a feel bad for me taking the mortals, and if you are playing to win you have to take the mortals.
Just for clarity you can only select 1 secondary from the DG list, cant take Spread the Sickness and Despoiled ground together!
I think the poor secondaries are going to be a huge problem when competitions start back up mainstream. Most armies have at least 1 or more auto picks and at the minute DG have none!
I have only taken spread the sickness once and scored 9pts with no effort. My poxwalkers typically just screen and take up space, and this first game that I took it, they did that AND scored me 9pts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And 12pts wasn’t out of the question either, it just made more sense for my one of my units to hang back and score more on the primary one turn. It’s main issue is that only one unit in your army and spread the sickness each turn. If that restriction didn’t exist, it would be an automatic take every game IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And can you point me to where it says we can only take one Death Guard secondary?
I am still on the fence with spread the sickness, I think a reasonable amount of points can be generated, it just feels bad to take D3 mortals!
Why are we taking mortals to throw up over an objective? No one else takes mortals to perform actions. Everyone seems to think it's ok on pox walkers but what about on Deathshroud?
To use this secondary you can deepstrike into backfield, try and charge onto the enemy holding their home objective, fight and clear the objective, survive through the enemies turn then complete this objective, at which point one of your 50 point combat monsters dies. That is definately a feel bad right there!
The page in the codex listing the secondaries tells you it's one only, last line of the first paragraph. It's the same for all books. Marines get around it as they allowed 1 from their supplement as well as 1 from the main marine book.
Most notable is they removed the Lords of the Deathguard from Daemon Prince, so you can now take it and a DG lord. Also clarified that Difficult ground DOES work with inexorable.
Tremble wrote: I have found Despoiled ground to be completely useless.
I have even tabled my opponent and still scored 0 with it! The restrictions are just to restrictive, I doubt I will ever try this again.
Spread the sickness is a feel bad for me taking the mortals, and if you are playing to win you have to take the mortals.
Just for clarity you can only select 1 secondary from the DG list, cant take Spread the Sickness and Despoiled ground together!
I think the poor secondaries are going to be a huge problem when competitions start back up mainstream. Most armies have at least 1 or more auto picks and at the minute DG have none!
maybe you dont play right then, DG have a big end game board presence, hard to believe you score 0. Who care to take mortals on poxwalkers?
ninjafiredragon wrote: Some thoughts: In regards to taking more support characters, be careful about giving up too many points for the assassinate secondary.
Each one of those support characters can be 3VP to the opponent, and if your bringing morty + a battalion with 2 hqs + a couple of support characters and all of a sudden your list has 5+ characters, enabling your opponent to get close to, if not max out a secondary.
Not really though? If anything, assassinate is a trap choice against DG since at least two of those support characters are running with blocks of terminators and none of the lords are easy to kill. Anything near deathshroud can't be killed at all, not even by snipers. In games where you lose 5 characters you are probably getting tabled anyways, also causing you to fail while we stand and despoiled ground. At that point losing some more VP hardly matters. My most common casualty is usually my plague caster blowing himself up and one other support character which got sniped in some melee brawl situation.
I do wish I had a big block of Blightlord termies, but unfortunately I do not. And they appear totally sold out in America. Oh well, another time.
My thoughts were coming off games where my list was built primarily around plague marines and a few support daemon engines. I am starting to suspect that plague marines are not tier one, unless maybe you spam the board with them in lieu of supporting damage dealers. Because while the minus 1 damage helps, and t5 is huge, plague marines really are just as susceptible to a wide range of medium arms fire that normal marines are. Sure, if your opponent is not playing one of the top meta armies, or he isn't trying to bring his full strength to bear, maybe plague marines can go off. But I, and I think most of us here, are talking in a tournament setting with the goal to be playing optimally against other optimal lists. And I think optimal meta lists can deal with plague marines the same way they can deal with normal marines, lots of ap -1/-2 weapons. Again, I dont think they are bad necessarily, but unless you reach a critical mass, I dont think they are going to be over performing, especially since their ranged damage is low unless you sink more points into them.
Which is what lead to assassinate being effective against me in previous games, as 30+ bodies of plague marines was not enough to stop my marine opponent from getting into my juicy characters. Even with a plague surgeon buffing them.
I think you are right though, a 10 man terminator squad is much more resistant than plague marines due to 2+/4++. Prob much better at hiding characters.
You take a -2 penalty if you walk through difficult terrain, but don’t take it if you advance or charge through it?
It seems to work against tanglefoot.
Really our chapter trait is quite literally the worst in the game. Even getting to move and rapid fire always with bolters ONLY matters on PMs since all terminators already could do it. The IA movement nerf just made a bad chapter trait worse. Just stupid how the terrible IA only works on 1/3 our stuff.
You take a -2 penalty if you walk through difficult terrain, but don’t take it if you advance or charge through it?
It seems to work against tanglefoot.
Really our chapter trait is quite literally the worst in the game. Even getting to move and rapid fire always with bolters ONLY matters on PMs since all terminators already could do it. The IA movement nerf just made a bad chapter trait worse. Just stupid how the terrible IA only works on 1/3 our stuff.
Advancing still counts as moving so you'd still get it. Charging I'd have to look.
Tanglefoot will effect you in the charge phase but NOT the movement phase'.
I think you are right though, a 10 man terminator squad is much more resistant than plague marines due to 2+/4++. Prob much better at hiding characters.
Use deathshrouds they work fine protecting charactes at lest against ranged attacks.
Tremble wrote: I have found Despoiled ground to be completely useless.
I have even tabled my opponent and still scored 0 with it! The restrictions are just to restrictive, I doubt I will ever try this again.
Spread the sickness is a feel bad for me taking the mortals, and if you are playing to win you have to take the mortals.
Just for clarity you can only select 1 secondary from the DG list, cant take Spread the Sickness and Despoiled ground together!
I think the poor secondaries are going to be a huge problem when competitions start back up mainstream. Most armies have at least 1 or more auto picks and at the minute DG have none!
maybe you dont play right then, DG have a big end game board presence, hard to believe you score 0. Who care to take mortals on poxwalkers?
Not a very helpful post Blackmage!
I tabled my opponent so I did something right!
The problem is the scoring conditions are very specific and NOT easy to achieve.
Score 4VP if you have Bubonic Astartes wholly within your own and opponents deployement zones.
Score 4VP if you have Bubonic astartes wholly within 3 quarters or 6VP if wholly within all 4 quarters.
Score 4VP if at end battle if Bubonic astartes hold more than half of objectives.
Score 4VP if every objective is covered by contagion ability.
How many Bubonic astartes units are you intending to field? I normally can only fit in 2 or 3 plague marine squads and maybe 1 or 2 termy squads.
The support chars count but need to stay with the squads to be any use.
I cant leave any of those units in my own deployement as they are too expensive to act as backfield campers.
Once the enemy kills even 1 or 2 units you cannot score.
The daemon engines dont count, pox walkers dont count. How are you getting these slow units all over the board?
With regard to Spread the Sickness I agree it is ok for poxwalkers when you have 2 or 3 easy to reach objectives, but I dont want to have elite infantry performing actions that then kills them!
You take a -2 penalty if you walk through difficult terrain, but don’t take it if you advance or charge through it?
It seems to work against tanglefoot.
Really our chapter trait is quite literally the worst in the game. Even getting to move and rapid fire always with bolters ONLY matters on PMs since all terminators already could do it. The IA movement nerf just made a bad chapter trait worse. Just stupid how the terrible IA only works on 1/3 our stuff.
Advancing still counts as moving so you'd still get it. Charging I'd have to look.
Tanglefoot will effect you in the charge phase but NOT the movement phase'.
...IA units can ignore any or all modifiers to move characteristics, advance rolls, and charge rolls.
Tanglefoot won’t work on IA units in either the charge or movement phase.
Also, the way IA is worded if you advance or charge through difficult terrain you won’t suffer the penalty.
Tremble wrote: I have found Despoiled ground to be completely useless.
I have even tabled my opponent and still scored 0 with it! The restrictions are just to restrictive, I doubt I will ever try this again.
Spread the sickness is a feel bad for me taking the mortals, and if you are playing to win you have to take the mortals.
Just for clarity you can only select 1 secondary from the DG list, cant take Spread the Sickness and Despoiled ground together!
I think the poor secondaries are going to be a huge problem when competitions start back up mainstream. Most armies have at least 1 or more auto picks and at the minute DG have none!
maybe you dont play right then, DG have a big end game board presence, hard to believe you score 0. Who care to take mortals on poxwalkers?
Not a very helpful post Blackmage!
I tabled my opponent so I did something right!
The problem is the scoring conditions are very specific and NOT easy to achieve.
Score 4VP if you have Bubonic Astartes wholly within your own and opponents deployement zones.
Score 4VP if you have Bubonic astartes wholly within 3 quarters or 6VP if wholly within all 4 quarters.
Score 4VP if at end battle if Bubonic astartes hold more than half of objectives.
Score 4VP if every objective is covered by contagion ability.
How many Bubonic astartes units are you intending to field? I normally can only fit in 2 or 3 plague marine squads and maybe 1 or 2 termy squads.
The support chars count but need to stay with the squads to be any use.
I cant leave any of those units in my own deployement as they are too expensive to act as backfield campers.
Once the enemy kills even 1 or 2 units you cannot score.
The daemon engines dont count, pox walkers dont count. How are you getting these slow units all over the board?
With regard to Spread the Sickness I agree it is ok for poxwalkers when you have 2 or 3 easy to reach objectives, but I dont want to have elite infantry performing actions that then kills them!
sorry i explain better..
when i choose despoiled ground i have at least 5/6 bubonic astartes unit, BL,deathshouds x2 and couple of units of Pm. Wasn't intended to say you played wrong..but usually you can get at least 8pts with despoiled ground no need to max it anytime, this is why i said at start secondaries depend by LIST AND MISSION, if a 5 obj mission with about 4 bubonic astartes units you can score at least 8/12pts with despoiled ground.
an example last time i played a list like this...
you have 10 bubotic astartes units, consider take out 10 PM and play 2 PBC you still have 9 bubotic astartes units, hard to believe you cant score at least 8pts.
You take a -2 penalty if you walk through difficult terrain, but don’t take it if you advance or charge through it?
It seems to work against tanglefoot.
Really our chapter trait is quite literally the worst in the game. Even getting to move and rapid fire always with bolters ONLY matters on PMs since all terminators already could do it. The IA movement nerf just made a bad chapter trait worse. Just stupid how the terrible IA only works on 1/3 our stuff.
Advancing still counts as moving so you'd still get it. Charging I'd have to look.
Tanglefoot will effect you in the charge phase but NOT the movement phase'.
...IA units can ignore any or all modifiers to move characteristics, advance rolls, and charge rolls.
Tanglefoot won’t work on IA units in either the charge or movement phase.
Also, the way IA is worded if you advance or charge through difficult terrain you won’t suffer the penalty.
There was a FAQ today. GW disagrees. It says Difficult Terrain is not effecting the Move characteristic, just the movement distance, which is separate. Thus, Difficult Terrain is not stopped by IA as IA only protects the Move characteristic. Advancing still uses your Move distance.
Similarly, in the chage phase, Tanglefoot grenade does not effect the charge roll, just the charge distance.
Tremble wrote: I have found Despoiled ground to be completely useless.
I have even tabled my opponent and still scored 0 with it! The restrictions are just to restrictive, I doubt I will ever try this again.
Spread the sickness is a feel bad for me taking the mortals, and if you are playing to win you have to take the mortals.
Just for clarity you can only select 1 secondary from the DG list, cant take Spread the Sickness and Despoiled ground together!
I think the poor secondaries are going to be a huge problem when competitions start back up mainstream. Most armies have at least 1 or more auto picks and at the minute DG have none!
maybe you dont play right then, DG have a big end game board presence, hard to believe you score 0. Who care to take mortals on poxwalkers?
Not a very helpful post Blackmage!
I tabled my opponent so I did something right!
The problem is the scoring conditions are very specific and NOT easy to achieve.
Score 4VP if you have Bubonic Astartes wholly within your own and opponents deployement zones.
Score 4VP if you have Bubonic astartes wholly within 3 quarters or 6VP if wholly within all 4 quarters.
Score 4VP if at end battle if Bubonic astartes hold more than half of objectives.
Score 4VP if every objective is covered by contagion ability.
How many Bubonic astartes units are you intending to field? I normally can only fit in 2 or 3 plague marine squads and maybe 1 or 2 termy squads.
The support chars count but need to stay with the squads to be any use.
I cant leave any of those units in my own deployement as they are too expensive to act as backfield campers.
Once the enemy kills even 1 or 2 units you cannot score.
The daemon engines dont count, pox walkers dont count. How are you getting these slow units all over the board?
With regard to Spread the Sickness I agree it is ok for poxwalkers when you have 2 or 3 easy to reach objectives, but I dont want to have elite infantry performing actions that then kills them!
sorry i explain better..
when i choose despoiled ground i have at least 5/6 bubonic astartes unit, BL,deathshouds x2 and couple of units of Pm. Wasn't intended to say you played wrong..but usually you can get at least 8pts with despoiled ground no need to max it anytime, this is why i said at start secondaries depend by LIST AND MISSION, if a 5 obj mission with about 4 bubonic astartes units you can score at least 8/12pts with despoiled ground.
an example last time i played a list like this...
Created with BattleScribe you have 10 bubotic astartes units, consider take out 10 PM and play 2 PBC you still have 9 bubotic astartes units, hard to believe you cant score at least 8pts.
Here is a useful mathhammer video. Sigal of Decay is a trap, more effective to use points elsewhere. Honestly this guy is quickly becoming my favorite DG tactics channel.
I really like a list with loads of plague marines but find it hard not to include quite a few Daemon engines. Do you not get shot to bits before you can close the distance? You have next to no shooting.
Foetid Bloat-drone [7 PL, 140pts]: Heavy blight launcher
+ Heavy Support +
Plagueburst Crawler [9 PL, 175pts]: 2x Entropy cannon, Heavy slugger
Plagueburst Crawler [9 PL, 175pts]: 2x Entropy cannon, Heavy slugger
++ Total: [104 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++
My opponent is bringing a.Khorne W/E chaos space marine list that is combat death! Not using Morty as we want to keep things more even. Have used him twice and once he dominated, second he was killed first turn! Either way kinda skewed the game!
You take a -2 penalty if you walk through difficult terrain, but don’t take it if you advance or charge through it?
It seems to work against tanglefoot.
Really our chapter trait is quite literally the worst in the game. Even getting to move and rapid fire always with bolters ONLY matters on PMs since all terminators already could do it. The IA movement nerf just made a bad chapter trait worse. Just stupid how the terrible IA only works on 1/3 our stuff.
Advancing still counts as moving so you'd still get it. Charging I'd have to look.
Tanglefoot will effect you in the charge phase but NOT the movement phase'.
...IA units can ignore any or all modifiers to move characteristics, advance rolls, and charge rolls.
Tanglefoot won’t work on IA units in either the charge or movement phase.
Also, the way IA is worded if you advance or charge through difficult terrain you won’t suffer the penalty.
There was a FAQ today. GW disagrees. It says Difficult Terrain is not effecting the Move characteristic, just the movement distance, which is separate. Thus, Difficult Terrain is not stopped by IA as IA only protects the Move characteristic. Advancing still uses your Move distance.
Similarly, in the chage phase, Tanglefoot grenade does not effect the charge roll, just the charge distance.
Maybe you are right about the advance rolls. However, unless they FAQ it will work on tanglefoot. The RAW means the charge distance would actually be reduced with tanglefoot. The term ‘charge distance’ isn’t even in the rules.
Otherwise this would honesty make the IA ability the most useless in the game. I don’t think RAW/RAI that is how it is correct. They likely didn’t think it through or this will be changed as codexes come out.
Regarding our secondaries, I have to agree that they aren’t good enough for similar reasons.
Despoiled ground only including heretic astartes is a big problem, but the bigger problem is it competes with engage on all fronts and domination, which are better options IMO.
Same thing with spread the sickness. The D3 mortal wounds is a problem, but so is competing with raise banners is much worse. I’ve found banners to be better in almost ever situation.
Ironically enough this leaves the morale failure as the only option I might use from our book, but we all know the problems with this one.
Tremble wrote: My opponent is bringing a.Khorne W/E chaos space marine list that is combat death! Not using Morty as we want to keep things more even. Have used him twice and once he dominated, second he was killed first turn! Either way kinda skewed the game!
With that second game, you learned the great lesson of World Eaters: never charge Berzerkers.
Your list looks good but I'd like to see a Flail on each Plague Marine unit, a Fleshmower on each Drone, and maybe a third PBC.
Since you mentioned Daemon Engines - any idea how PBCs stack up against Defilers? I have 3 Defilers sitting around and don't know whether or not to build them.
Same thing with spread the sickness. The D3 mortal wounds is a problem, but so is competing with raise banners is much worse. I’ve found banners to be better in almost ever situation.
no because when you contaminate an obj your opponent cant do anything to deny score point, with raise the banner he can
Despoiled ground only including heretic astartes is a big problem
Are you aware that an average decent DG list have 4-6 bubotic astarted units in list?
I really like a list with loads of plague marines but find it hard not to include quite a few Daemon engines. Do you not get shot to bits before you can close the distance? You have next to no shooting.
Foetid Bloat-drone [7 PL, 140pts]: Heavy blight launcher
+ Heavy Support +
Plagueburst Crawler [9 PL, 175pts]: 2x Entropy cannon, Heavy slugger
Plagueburst Crawler [9 PL, 175pts]: 2x Entropy cannon, Heavy slugger
++ Total: [104 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++
My opponent is bringing a.Khorne W/E chaos space marine list that is combat death! Not using Morty as we want to keep things more even. Have used him twice and once he dominated, second he was killed first turn! Either way kinda skewed the game!
the list is ok, if i can give you just a suggestion...take off blight launcher drone and couple of poxwalkers and play 3 extra deathshrouds and give one unit the reaper of glorious entropy
Sorry guys I’m going to be that guy for second here. The list posted above is good for...
1) Being a nice jumping off point for getting into deathguard.
2) being a fun army that will teach you tactics for the army.
3) Being a strong contender list in your local meta.
However, it is not a competitive (tournament) list by any stretch for one reason. As stated throughout this thread over and over again (including last page) plague marines are not good enough. To put it more bluntly, putting plague marines in your list actively lowers your chance of winning at a competitive level. I wish this wasn’t the case and I like that people are trying to make fluffy armies, but for the sake of lurkers in this thread I have to make it clear that plague marines are a bad competitive option. They die to way more things than terminators, and in order to make them kill more than terminators this problem just gets exacerbated. (As now you are losing more PPM for every guy that dies).
Plague marines are most likely why Tremble had problems with World eaters. Our terminators have no issues dealing with bezerkers, but plague marines need to be worried of them. Likewise our terminators can handle things like redemptor dreadnoughts with ease, but plague marines... How about custodes stuff? You guessed it. Our terminators crush them but plague marines just die. The list goes on and on.
Plague marine spam is just trying to polish a turf for fluff reasons. It looks good on the table and can win some games, but it’s upside is just non-existent at the moment. Maybe New rules change this, but at the moment please don’t play plague marines if you are trying to be competitive.
pity that 2 out of 3 lists at last 26 players tournaments in australia had PM, one of them the 4th place (4-1 record) Dg had 30 pm in list and 15 termies. Problem in list above is lack of termies but PM can be playable, i still think that perhaps PM aren't mandatory but you can compete at all.
Ashley Reid 4th place list
focus trying to delete 30PM and you will lose anyway for 16 termies that delete your units and score points, get too close and you get tons of autowound -1/-2ap bolter shots, 10 PM deliver 27 hits in melee and if neede 10more with stratagem, dont underestimate them, actual 9th ed lists have lot of d3 or 2D weapons fairly ineffective against PM. That said i think DG codex give you lot of versatility, im not sure what we will play in future but i will think twice before put some unit on shelf.
PS: i keep wonder why ppls keep evaluate units based on how much killy they are (still 8th ed, syndrome i believe), PM DONT need to kill anything they touch, for that task we have BL/DS, they have to be a durable bunch of scoring models, if you demand you can play only PM and deal with anything you are playing wrong, try mix PM and termies.
HBL drones are fine. About half as deadly against Primaris equivalents as the mower but will get kills first and second turn to balance out.
It's much more versatile too, can do damage from on top of terrain to avoid being tagged if needed and get even better when contagion auras start kicking in and you're wounding on 2s.
best drone is the mower one 12 attacks wound primaris on 2's rerolling one's, drones are not core they dont get any reroll and just 6 hits is really too few, just a -1 to hit and you make no significant damage, DG have a strong ability called -1T use it at your advantage , ask yourself why no one play that kind of loadout, play DG like vanilla marines trying to outgun opponent dont work. imho
Mower kills 5 Primaris in combat. HBL kills 2 or 3 in shooting, then probably another if you follow up with charge.
But that's the beauty of the HBL, you don't need to ram it down your opponent's throat so it probably survives longer. It can sit and be resilient on an objective, by turn two or three probably what it's shooting at is in contagion range anyway so it gets even better.
Regardless, you said above people should stop evaluating units by what they kill. The HBL drone plays the mission better than the mower and can continue to contribute with good shooting while it does.
It's good to have some versatility. I've run a pair of mowers and a HBL drone together in several games now and always thought the HBL contributed more. I have since dropped one of the mowers from my list.
blackmage wrote: pity that 2 out of 3 lists at last 26 players tournaments in australia had PM, one of them the 4th place (4-1 record) Dg had 30 pm in list and 15 termies. Problem in list above is lack of termies but PM can be playable, i still think that perhaps PM aren't mandatory but you can compete at all.
Ashley Reid 4th place list
focus trying to delete 30PM and you will lose anyway for 16 termies that delete your units and score points, get too close and you get tons of autowound -1/-2ap bolter shots, 10 PM deliver 27 hits in melee and if neede 10more with stratagem, dont underestimate them, actual 9th ed lists have lot of d3 or 2D weapons fairly ineffective against PM. That said i think DG codex give you lot of versatility, im not sure what we will play in future but i will think twice before put some unit on shelf.
PS: i keep wonder why ppls keep evaluate units based on how much killy they are (still 8th ed, syndrome i believe), PM DONT need to kill anything they touch, for that task we have BL/DS, they have to be a durable bunch of scoring models, if you demand you can play only PM and deal with anything you are playing wrong, try mix PM and termies.
That’s a fine example, but I have a 3 points against it.
1) Deathguard were extremely new when this tournament took place. At this time most people were not as focused on countering DG yet For example a lot more D2 stuff was used than what we can expect in the future.
2) The list went 4-1. While that may not seem like too much of difference vs 5-0, that lost game is weighted much more than each of the 4 wins. Simply having 1 loss means at least one type of build is problematic for this army, and it’s likely much more than that can win against the PM. Especially when we factor in point 3.
3) You can’t weigh a 26 man Australian tournament that highly. Pre-COVID this kind of tournament would barely register on anyone’s radar and for good reason. A) the Aussie meta has always been know to be weird (and be extension weaker than the rest of the worlds meta, otherwise we would see more of their strategies at world events like LVO). More importantly, a 26 man tournament just isn’t big enough to draw major conclusions from. I should know I’ve gotten 3rd at a 32 man (or 36 man I can’t remember) tournament, and basically nobody outside of local meta cared. Honestly, now that I’ve gone to an 80 man tournament I am certain this makes sense, as what goes 5-1 and 6-0 at a local tournament will go 4-2 or 3-3 at a large tournament. Which leads me to my conclusion.
PM limit upside. You can and will do well with them, but they simply don’t preform against certain lists. That’s what I was mainly arguing above ,even though I was too harsh. It’s like trying to play for fools (scholars) mate in chess. It will work against a lot of opponents, but once you start playing more competitively, this type of strategy will actively hurt your chances of winning.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abaddon303 wrote: Mower kills 5 Primaris in combat. HBL kills 2 or 3 in shooting, then probably another if you follow up with charge.
But that's the beauty of the HBL, you don't need to ram it down your opponent's throat so it probably survives longer. It can sit and be resilient on an objective, by turn two or three probably what it's shooting at is in contagion range anyway so it gets even better.
Regardless, you said above people should stop evaluating units by what they kill. The HBL drone plays the mission better than the mower and can continue to contribute with good shooting while it does.
It's good to have some versatility. I've run a pair of mowers and a HBL drone together in several games now and always thought the HBL contributed more. I have since dropped one of the mowers from my list.
I don’t quite understand why you think HBL drones play the mission better. General speaking charging and killing a unit on objectives is what you want to be doing, since you now own that objective rather than just stopping your opponent from owning it. In this case killing power does matter, since being able to wipe a unit allows you to take objective, In the example provided the HBL will leave a marine squad on an objective 1 turn longer than the mower drone, which is much, much worse.
As far as the durability things goes I don’t really agree on that either. DG is army about ramming threats down your opponents throat. It’s actually pretty easy for a mower drone to hit an area that’s inconvenient for your opponent, like a flank objective. If your opponent can shoot the drone off than its likely they can shoot off a HBL drone as well (unless you are playing too careful with the HBL or not enough careful with the mower drone)
While charging onto an objective is a major part of the game it's not everything. Sometimes you need a unit to hang back and respond to threats. They can also advance onto an uncontested objective and still shoot, or advance for engage/linebreaker and still shoot.
They can also reach out and remove units from distant objectives which is valuable in a slow army. We don't have an abundance of ranged anti infantry. Taking something off an objective is often as effective as claiming one yourself. With a 46"+ threat range you can pick and choose whichever objective is held most tenuously
I am struggling slightly with the new codex so any help is appreciated. This current list is what I physically have rather than the most optimised.
I am not a top tourny player although when things go back to normal I do hope to play DG at a few events - I live near Warhammer World so normally get to 3 or 4 events a year.
Main areas I cant figure out:
Going very Termy heavy - have not tried this as I dont see how it works against either fast or shooty armies. If I send 2 massive blocks of termies waddling up the field do people not just let me take 1 objective and kill everything else? While I fire out a few bolter shots and hardly hurt them? Particularily how do you use larger 5 man DS squads?
Explain how this works please and I may try it next week.
The Plague companies/WL trait contagions - these all seem extremely lackluster EXCEPT when taken by Mortarion, then they seem amazing. Are many of you getting much out of these additional contagions? I know the theory of throwing a drone forward but have not been able to get that to work so far.
I find bloat drones die too easily, simply because they tend to end up the most forward and exposed. Now, if they were really cheap yet quite resilient, I think it would be fine, but Bloat drones aren't that cheap in terms of points. For the same amount of points of 1 bloat drone, you could get two squads of 3 Spawn. That's 24 wounds with DR compared to the bloat drone's 9W ...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tremble wrote: Thanks for the honest feedback on the list.
I am struggling slightly with the new codex so any help is appreciated. This current list is what I physically have rather than the most optimised.
I am not a top tourny player although when things go back to normal I do hope to play DG at a few events - I live near Warhammer World so normally get to 3 or 4 events a year.
Main areas I cant figure out:
Going very Termy heavy - have not tried this as I dont see how it works against either fast or shooty armies. If I send 2 massive blocks of termies waddling up the field do people not just let me take 1 objective and kill everything else? While I fire out a few bolter shots and hardly hurt them? Particularily how do you use larger 5 man DS squads?
Explain how this works please and I may try it next week.
The Plague companies/WL trait contagions - these all seem extremely lackluster EXCEPT when taken by Mortarion, then they seem amazing. Are many of you getting much out of these additional contagions? I know the theory of throwing a drone forward but have not been able to get that to work so far.
Cheers again for the help!
The heavy terminator list is based on math that the typical list will not be able to kill more than 1 or 2 DG terminators in one round (maybe 3), So, if you bring say 20 DG terminators. They literally cannot kill them even with 5 full rounds of shooting. Even if they fire everything at them each round. I am sure there are some tailored lists that will do well against a heavy DG terminator list. But those are tailored lists. Typical small arms fire have a tough time against DG terminators because 3W and T5 and 2+ save. Heavy weapon needs to punch through their 4++, and then get reduced by 1 damage anyway.
The heavy terminator lists is based on bullying the mid board objectives.
Say you march 5 blighlords squads (25 terminators) up the board, supported by characters. Turn 1, opponent kills 3 blightlords. Turn 2, He kills another 3 blightlords. Now you have 19 blightlords charging whatever is on the midboard objectives. Your typical list won't have be able to handle that kind of midboard pressure.
Now, lets say he gives up the midboard and tries to focus on shooting you off the board. So, you got 19 terminators on turn 2. 16 on turn 3, 13 on turn 4, 10 on turn 5. And this means that all game, your opponent gave up the midboard entirely just to do nothing but shoot you. At this point, he has lost the game, ahd He still haven't whittled down your terminator force to zero.
This is just an example of course. And btw, 25 blightlords means you are shooting out 100 bolter shots per turn. Its not like you are just sitting there doing nothing. Even vehicles will eventually get chipped down with that.
It takes 17 lascannon shots to kill 100 points worth of a blightlord terminator squad if its supported by a plague surgeon. So, even 3 tri lascannon predators tanks shooting all out won't kill off 1 squad. And the same squad requires 243 autoboltstorm shots or 81 heavy bolter shots to kill off 100 points worth. So, like I said, heavy DG terminator army is just about bullying the centre and daring your opponent to do his best (and failing) to kill you.
Opps, sorry, my bad, you can't use 5 squads of 5 blightlords as an example because of the rule of 3. So, 3 squads of blightlords and 2 squads of deathshrouds is a better example I guess. Or 2 squads of 10 and 1 squad of 5.
Also, you can't design a DG list with the goal of trying to outshoot your opponent. DG trades being slightly slower, weaker in shooting, for resilience and stronger in melee. If you keep trying to boost your DG list's shootiness, it will be at the cost of everything else, and you won't be playing to DG's strength. Not saying you totally forgo shooting. My opinion is that DG wants to have just enough shooting to take out the most dangerous threat, and then it ignores and tanks through everything else while doing its own thing (which is to bully the midboard).
blackmage wrote: pity that 2 out of 3 lists at last 26 players tournaments in australia had PM, one of them the 4th place (4-1 record) Dg had 30 pm in list and 15 termies. Problem in list above is lack of termies but PM can be playable, i still think that perhaps PM aren't mandatory but you can compete at all.
Ashley Reid 4th place list
focus trying to delete 30PM and you will lose anyway for 16 termies that delete your units and score points, get too close and you get tons of autowound -1/-2ap bolter shots, 10 PM deliver 27 hits in melee and if neede 10more with stratagem, dont underestimate them, actual 9th ed lists have lot of d3 or 2D weapons fairly ineffective against PM. That said i think DG codex give you lot of versatility, im not sure what we will play in future but i will think twice before put some unit on shelf.
PS: i keep wonder why ppls keep evaluate units based on how much killy they are (still 8th ed, syndrome i believe), PM DONT need to kill anything they touch, for that task we have BL/DS, they have to be a durable bunch of scoring models, if you demand you can play only PM and deal with anything you are playing wrong, try mix PM and termies.
That’s a fine example, but I have a 3 points against it.
1) Deathguard were extremely new when this tournament took place. At this time most people were not as focused on countering DG yet For example a lot more D2 stuff was used than what we can expect in the future.
2) The list went 4-1. While that may not seem like too much of difference vs 5-0, that lost game is weighted much more than each of the 4 wins. Simply having 1 loss means at least one type of build is problematic for this army, and it’s likely much more than that can win against the PM. Especially when we factor in point 3.
3) You can’t weigh a 26 man Australian tournament that highly. Pre-COVID this kind of tournament would barely register on anyone’s radar and for good reason. A) the Aussie meta has always been know to be weird (and be extension weaker than the rest of the worlds meta, otherwise we would see more of their strategies at world events like LVO). More importantly, a 26 man tournament just isn’t big enough to draw major conclusions from. I should know I’ve gotten 3rd at a 32 man (or 36 man I can’t remember) tournament, and basically nobody outside of local meta cared. Honestly, now that I’ve gone to an 80 man tournament I am certain this makes sense, as what goes 5-1 and 6-0 at a local tournament will go 4-2 or 3-3 at a large tournament. Which leads me to my conclusion.
PM limit upside. You can and will do well with them, but they simply don’t preform against certain lists. That’s what I was mainly arguing above ,even though I was too harsh. It’s like trying to play for fools (scholars) mate in chess. It will work against a lot of opponents, but once you start playing more competitively, this type of strategy will actively hurt your chances of winning.
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Abaddon303 wrote: Mower kills 5 Primaris in combat. HBL kills 2 or 3 in shooting, then probably another if you follow up with charge.
But that's the beauty of the HBL, you don't need to ram it down your opponent's throat so it probably survives longer. It can sit and be resilient on an objective, by turn two or three probably what it's shooting at is in contagion range anyway so it gets even better.
Regardless, you said above people should stop evaluating units by what they kill. The HBL drone plays the mission better than the mower and can continue to contribute with good shooting while it does.
It's good to have some versatility. I've run a pair of mowers and a HBL drone together in several games now and always thought the HBL contributed more. I have since dropped one of the mowers from my list.
I don’t quite understand why you think HBL drones play the mission better. General speaking charging and killing a unit on objectives is what you want to be doing, since you now own that objective rather than just stopping your opponent from owning it. In this case killing power does matter, since being able to wipe a unit allows you to take objective, In the example provided the HBL will leave a marine squad on an objective 1 turn longer than the mower drone, which is much, much worse.
As far as the durability things goes I don’t really agree on that either. DG is army about ramming threats down your opponents throat. It’s actually pretty easy for a mower drone to hit an area that’s inconvenient for your opponent, like a flank objective. If your opponent can shoot the drone off than its likely they can shoot off a HBL drone as well (unless you are playing too careful with the HBL or not enough careful with the mower drone)
I agree of course, remain fact that the perfect all around list dont and will not exist, i prefer bring 30 Pm than Mortarion that can be neutered by tons of units , regardles what ppls think or believe. I still tink that we will see more poxbringers than Pm that for sure, anwyay is a build that can give headaches to more then 1 list.
I was on team "PM are not worth it, take Terminators" - but I'm increasingly not convinced the gap is big enough for a hard "PM are not competitive, never take". If PM special weapons were 5 points I think things would be very close, perhaps even PM preferred.
Its right that 31 point PM are not tough. But you do have 21 point PM to die first, and they are not overly fragile* while its the 31 point guys doing the heavy lifting. In game, how this interaction plays out is why I don't think they are as bad as they might theoretically appear. In 5/10 strong squad with 2/4 specials, you are maybe 10-20 points over.
*They are a lot weaker than BL versus AP-, but at the same time, they don't give up a lot of points, its just shooting BL with such weapons is *awful*. Once you apply some AP, the difference narrows.
I'm also not convinced with the above argument that most armies will struggle to kill more than 3 Terminators a turn. I mean it sort of runs counter to "Stench Vats is an auto-include because there's a lot of assault units which can do a number on Terminators if they get to go first". (Which I was also initially a cynic of, but am increasingly be won over by.)
Tyel wrote: I was on team "PM are not worth it, take Terminators" - but I'm increasingly not convinced the gap is big enough for a hard "PM are not competitive, never take". If PM special weapons were 5 points I think things would be very close, perhaps even PM preferred.
Its right that 31 point PM are not tough. But you do have 21 point PM to die first, and they are not overly fragile* while its the 31 point guys doing the heavy lifting. In game, how this interaction plays out is why I don't think they are as bad as they might theoretically appear. In 5/10 strong squad with 2/4 specials, you are maybe 10-20 points over.
*They are a lot weaker than BL versus AP-, but at the same time, they don't give up a lot of points, its just shooting BL with such weapons is *awful*. Once you apply some AP, the difference narrows.
I'm also not convinced with the above argument that most armies will struggle to kill more than 3 Terminators a turn. I mean it sort of runs counter to "Stench Vats is an auto-include because there's a lot of assault units which can do a number on Terminators if they get to go first". (Which I was also initially a cynic of, but am increasingly be won over by.)
the PM spam in my opinion, work if you play lot of termies too. You force your opponent to take decisions, try to delete 30 pm, and let 16 termies do what they want, or shoot termies and dont have enough punch to dislodge Pm from obj? Again 9th is based on score points, not who kill more, so plan to play the mission, no matter how many PM/termies you lost, your opponent can table you end of turn 5 but if you scored 15x4 pts is usually too late.
That matches my experience. If I have three squads of terminators, PM take a lot less heat then when I have Mortarion or a bunch of daemon engines on the table.
Tyel wrote: I was on team "PM are not worth it, take Terminators" - but I'm increasingly not convinced the gap is big enough for a hard "PM are not competitive, never take". If PM special weapons were 5 points I think things would be very close, perhaps even PM preferred.
Its right that 31 point PM are not tough. But you do have 21 point PM to die first, and they are not overly fragile* while its the 31 point guys doing the heavy lifting. In game, how this interaction plays out is why I don't think they are as bad as they might theoretically appear. In 5/10 strong squad with 2/4 specials, you are maybe 10-20 points over.
*They are a lot weaker than BL versus AP-, but at the same time, they don't give up a lot of points, its just shooting BL with such weapons is *awful*. Once you apply some AP, the difference narrows.
I'm also not convinced with the above argument that most armies will struggle to kill more than 3 Terminators a turn. I mean it sort of runs counter to "Stench Vats is an auto-include because there's a lot of assault units which can do a number on Terminators if they get to go first". (Which I was also initially a cynic of, but am increasingly be won over by.)
The problem is there are always specific counter units that can run againt conventional wisdom. Like that guy in the link I copied did the math. It takes 17 lascannon shots to kill 100 points worth of blightlords with plague surgeon support. Now, this is based on pure averages. Maybe the guy who brings lascannons is super lucky and kills a whole squad in one volley, but then he is not rolling averages. There are also specific weapons that WILL kill a squad of blightlords in one volley (hint mortal wound weapons). But the question is, do all lists have such weapons? Is it fair to say DG terminators are not resilient enough based on such a small subset of weapons? Its not.
The same goes for how DG terminators stack against melee units. Some melee units if they get the charge in, are ideally suited to killing DG terminators, because they rely on forcing a huge bucket load of 1 damage saves. Then, the DR doesn't help, and even the 4++ doesn't help, there is only the T5, and the 2+ to help. But again, these are a small subset of dedicated melee units. There are alot more which have high AP, and 2 damage. In which case, then the DR is extremely powerful because it halves their damage, and the 4++ is also very powerful, because it again halves any damage that comes through. And that's why people say stench vats is so important, because many of the melee units in the first category are not very resilient and would absolutely melt if you hit them first before they get to strike first from charging.
We are ultimately talking in a forum and in reality you will face different opponents using different lists. Even the terrain of the table you are playing on makes a big difference. If the table features very open terrain, then its a turkey shot and the terrain was probably ill set up. But if there are enough obscuring terrain, then it really will not be easy to take out more than 3 DG terminators per turn because if you utilise the terrain well enough, your opponent literally cannot bring that many guns to shoot at you. Like if you look at some of the videos on youtube, turn 1, competitive players sets up fully behind obscuring terrain. There are very few casualties on turn 1 because everything is hidden behind obscuring terrain and you have to move aggressively to get a shot off from the edges of the terrain.
So, by default, everything has to be discussed based on "general" circumstances. We can't factor in a list specifically tailored to take out say 8 terminators in one turn that gets to do it because there was zero obscuring terrain and both armies start out in plain view of each other and start blasting.
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Jidmah wrote: That matches my experience. If I have three squads of terminators, PM take a lot less heat then when I have Mortarion or a bunch of daemon engines on the table.
Yeah, have to take enough threat overload. Say you have squads of terminators, plus 30 PM all bearing down on the midboard, I don't believe there is an army in existance that can delete all of this in 2 turns. Maybe there is an army shooty enough to delete everything by turn 5, but maybe it can only do that by sacrificing all objectives to you and it would table you at the cost of losing the game.
Yeah, have to take enough threat overload. Say you have squads of terminators, plus 30 PM all bearing down on the midboard, I don't believe there is an army in existance that can delete all of this in 2 turns. Maybe there is an army shooty enough to delete everything by turn 5, but maybe it can only do that by sacrificing all objectives to you and it would table you at the cost of losing the game.
100% got the point, still lot have to figure i believe, that matches are decided on objective, do you wanna try obliterate my army in 5 turns? That's fine with me, you will keep losing a match after another.
Plague Marines are still competitive, i think a lot of the people being negative towards them is in response to people loading them for bear and spending upwards of 250pts on a squad based on their explosive damage and carry over wounds from cleaver and other big brain concepts.
I've found MSUPMs to be great just to let you be more places at once, important in a slow grinding army. I tend to take a flail and possibly a blight launcher in each squad, the rest are fine with bolters. 115pts for a unit with obsec, that's pretty tough, you don't mind advancing if you need it to get somewhere because you're not losing much from not shooting and even when whittled down to the final man can still do some work with the flail if you need him to charge an objective camper.
I have a question in regards to the Virulent Fever pathogen. On the surface, this looks to be an incredibly powerful tool in doling out mortal wounds. But I'm curious, does the rule mean that any unmodified role of six gives a mortal wound, or just one? For example, if I rolled four dice and got three sixes, would I get three mortal wounds from the pathogen or just one?
The pathogens are just too expensive. Having the chance to do a single MW on a 6 attack model isn’t really that great due to our limited attacks. Though may be worthy it on scything attacks.
Abaddon303 wrote: Plague Marines are still competitive, i think a lot of the people being negative towards them is in response to people loading them for bear and spending upwards of 250pts on a squad based on their explosive damage and carry over wounds from cleaver and other big brain concepts.
I've found MSUPMs to be great just to let you be more places at once, important in a slow grinding army. I tend to take a flail and possibly a blight launcher in each squad, the rest are fine with bolters. 115pts for a unit with obsec, that's pretty tough, you don't mind advancing if you need it to get somewhere because you're not losing much from not shooting and even when whittled down to the final man can still do some work with the flail if you need him to charge an objective camper.
Agree. Special wargears on PMs cost 10pts each, which is more expensive than 9th average level. Many codices have similar options like "pay 10pts to buy 1 bs3+ plasmagun", do they pay the 10pts to fill this slot? Usually they don't. Most tournament list don't.
Blight launcher is so good, i would purchase it even it cost 10pts instead of 5pts. But other upgrades…the more I purchased, I felt the more value I lost.
I wish I had the opponents yall have if they are only killing 3 terminators a turn. My usual marine opponent brings x2 redemptors, assualt plasma hellblasters, inceptors, and more.
turn 2 he killed all the deathshrounds, 10 plague marines, and other casualties. And I dont even think his list was tourney optimized. Sure, I wasnt running 20+ terminators, but that doesn't change the fact that my opponent had no trouble clearing out my boys. Sure, it would take an obscene number of lascannons to take termies down, but who actually runs las in the competitive scene? On the otherhand redemptors are everywhere, and I dont think the math with the redemptor is favorable for terminators., and absolutely isnt for plague marines.
broxus wrote: The pathogens are just too expensive. Having the chance to do a single MW on a 6 attack model isn’t really that great due to our limited attacks. Though may be worthy it on scything attacks.
I only really consider them if I've not hit 2k. It's pretty common to have the points left over though so I don't think they're crazy expensive.
ninjafiredragon wrote: I wish I had the opponents yall have if they are only killing 3 terminators a turn. My usual marine opponent brings x2 redemptors, assualt plasma hellblasters, inceptors, and more.
turn 2 he killed all the deathshrounds, 10 plague marines, and other casualties. And I dont even think his list was tourney optimized. Sure, I wasnt running 20+ terminators, but that doesn't change the fact that my opponent had no trouble clearing out my boys. Sure, it would take an obscene number of lascannons to take termies down, but who actually runs las in the competitive scene? On the otherhand redemptors are everywhere, and I dont think the math with the redemptor is favorable for terminators., and absolutely isnt for plague marines.
It sounds like the terrain you play with is badly setup or too open. As a rule of thumb, most of both armies should be able to set up behind obscuring terrain on turn 1. Let's say turn 1, he starts first, all of your terminator units are definitely behind obscuring terrain, if not most of your army. He will not even get a shot at your terminators. At best, he could pick off a few models in one or two of your exposed units (spawn, a unit of PM maybe, etc). He will kill zero terminators. Based on what you mentioned in his list, he has zero out of line shooting. So, whatever is behind obscuring is literally immune to being shot at. Since his shooting is so devastating he can kill your deathshrouds in one turn. Put them in reserve. Now he has to worry about screening, if not the deathshrouds will come in, flame a unit, and maybe charge another.
Your turn, so he has exposed many units trying to get an angle to shoot you but didn't kill any of your terminators. I assume you had one or two PBCs. Now your PBCs can start shooting their entropy cannons at his redemptors. Entropy cannons are especially good against these things. You could kill a redemptor with good damage rolls with just 3 shots that make it through, and 4 shots will that make it through will definitely do it. Even if you don't kill it in one turn with your entropy cannons, a degraded redemptor is a lot less scary. At its lowest profile, it is shooting at 5+ BS. Good luck hitting much with that, especially if its shooting at something with miasma of pestilence giving it a -1 to hit to make it hit on 6s now.
Access how much shooting he has with the plan to weaken one flank's shooting because you can use obscuring terrain to hide from the other flank. (Again, if your table is totally open, you are not laying out or playing terrain correctly). So, let's say your PBC shooting manage to take out one Redemptor on one flank, and your blight launchers and what not take out some of his more dangerous shooting too. But move your blightlords from obscuring to obscuring, or at least keep them behind a -1 to hit forest, or have them end in terrain giving them a +1 cover save. A 1+ save is not easy to crack. Obscuring is the best, so if you can move them from behind one obscuring cover to another, thats even better. Remember, if one redemptor on one flank is down, you should be able to keep yourself obscured from another redemptor if its all the way on another flank.
In any case, he has a choice now. You have exposed some units to him (especially your PBCs). and you have deep striking deathshrouds coming down. Does he bubble against your deep strike? Does he focus on trying to kill your PBCs? Does he focus on trying to get a shot at and killing your terminators on the board. He is unlikely to be able to do alll 3 things. Especially if there even IS obscuring terrain on the table you play.
So, it is now his turn 2. You have units advancing up a flank which are not as shooty because it is missing a redemptor. You have deathshroud waiting to deep strike in. And you have maybe one other terminator unit behind obscuring. or at least in cover, and its still a major threat. How is he going to kill a whole bunch of terminators plus ten PM plus other stuff in that one turn?
Not saying at this point the game is yours. It isn't. But its game on, and instead of being down half your army, you have options, he has hard decisions, and there is much to play at this point. bad dice rolls will of course still play a part, but for all you know, they could be in your favour too. Maybe you will have a game where 2 shots from a PBC kills a redemptor. And your 2 PBCs kill 2 Redemptors the minute they poke their heads out. One 9 inch charge made with your deathshrouds if he didn't screen his redemptors properly = a dead redemptor. Or equally, one good 9 inch charge roll by deathshrouds into a big squad of plasma hellblastors or inceptors is lights out for those hellblastors. His army doesn't sound like it has throwaway units. He literally has nothing to bubble up against incoming deep strike. You will definitely get to charge something be it inceptors, hellblastors or a redemptor the turn you come in from deep strike.
I really suggest you take a hard look at how terrain is set up in your table. Again as I said, as a rule of thumb, 80 to 90% of your army should be able to start the game behind obscuring terrain unless you are playing a hoard army. A DG army doesn't have such a high model count outside of poxwalkers. If you already put one or two units of deathshrouds in deep strike, you have even more space to arrange and hide the rest of your army. And there should be obscuring terrain on your tabletop. In fact, if your opponent is so strong, ask him to give you a handicap, so set up the table with extremely dense obscuring terrain. Like literally pack the table with tons of obscuring ruins with lots of walls with no windows. It would be literally impossible for him to get a bead on and kill so many units, especially on one turn 1. Your infantry army will be able to freely move up through the ruins, while staying behind or within cover. This kind of terrain would make it extremely hard for a shooting army to do well.
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broxus wrote: The pathogens are just too expensive. Having the chance to do a single MW on a 6 attack model isn’t really that great due to our limited attacks. Though may be worthy it on scything attacks.
The 10 point one (viscous death) that lets you reroll the number of shots is good on a Foul Blightspawn. Str 8 flamer with reroll number shots is great for 10 points.
Virulent fever (the one you mentioned that does mortal wounds on a 6) is a hefty 20 points. But if you put it on a deathshroud champion, and support it with a Biologus putrifier who has arch-contaminator. It becomes extremely deadly. have your Biologus cast foul infusion on that deathshroud unit. Foul Infusion does exactly the same thing as Virulent fever (mortal wounds on a 6). So, now the whole unit can reroll wounds, and 6s do mortal wounds. In addition, the champion can reroll wounds, and 6s do 2 mortal wounds each! You can even purposely reroll all of your non 6s to wound even if they wound normally just t o fish for more mortal wounds. you can totally obliterate something even if it had a high invul save. Your champion now has 10 attacks with rerolls to wound and 6s doing 2 mortal wounds. The rest of your squad has 8 attacks per model again rerolling to wound, and 6s doing 1 MW.
ninjafiredragon wrote: I wish I had the opponents yall have if they are only killing 3 terminators a turn. My usual marine opponent brings x2 redemptors, assualt plasma hellblasters, inceptors, and more.
turn 2 he killed all the deathshrounds, 10 plague marines, and other casualties. And I dont even think his list was tourney optimized. Sure, I wasnt running 20+ terminators, but that doesn't change the fact that my opponent had no trouble clearing out my boys. Sure, it would take an obscene number of lascannons to take termies down, but who actually runs las in the competitive scene? On the otherhand redemptors are everywhere, and I dont think the math with the redemptor is favorable for terminators., and absolutely isnt for plague marines.
The above poster is correct in his analysis. I’d also add that you’re opponent is bringing a skew list that is effective against deathguard (and possibly dark angles) but absolutely sucks against all other meta armies. Sisters, quins, Slaanesh demons, chaos soup, and meta necrons would have a field day with this list, and all are common at tournaments. So if he keeps bringing this gak against you and you continue to struggle , I’d recommend 3x plague burst crawlers and forgeworld dreads against him Or just bring chaos soup yourself.
Abaddon303 wrote: Plague Marines are still competitive, i think a lot of the people being negative towards them is in response to people loading them for bear and spending upwards of 250pts on a squad based on their explosive damage and carry over wounds from cleaver and other big brain concepts.
I've found MSUPMs to be great just to let you be more places at once, important in a slow grinding army. I tend to take a flail and possibly a blight launcher in each squad, the rest are fine with bolters. 115pts for a unit with obsec, that's pretty tough, you don't mind advancing if you need it to get somewhere because you're not losing much from not shooting and even when whittled down to the final man can still do some work with the flail if you need him to charge an objective camper.
Agree. Special wargears on PMs cost 10pts each, which is more expensive than 9th average level. Many codices have similar options like "pay 10pts to buy 1 bs3+ plasmagun", do they pay the 10pts to fill this slot? Usually they don't. Most tournament list don't.
Blight launcher is so good, i would purchase it even it cost 10pts instead of 5pts. But other upgrades…the more I purchased, I felt the more value I lost.
MSU plague marines are certainly powerful, but my problem with them is that I just think poxwalkers are better. I’m now convinced poxwalkers are a top 3 unit in the dex as 20 man bricks are just so effective. Everyone is bringing low rate, high damage weapons to deal with the rest of our army and dark angles, and if not that then D1 weapons with AP-1 or -2 is the next choice. Both of these are punished by walkers, and I’ve found that them regaining lost models from both killing stuff and the dead walk again stratagem to be extremely powerful. Throw in mortal wounds and potential re-roll to hits and just don’t see why you’d want PM over walkers.
ninjafiredragon wrote: I wish I had the opponents yall have if they are only killing 3 terminators a turn. My usual marine opponent brings x2 redemptors, assualt plasma hellblasters, inceptors, and more.
turn 2 he killed all the deathshrounds, 10 plague marines, and other casualties. And I dont even think his list was tourney optimized. Sure, I wasnt running 20+ terminators, but that doesn't change the fact that my opponent had no trouble clearing out my boys. Sure, it would take an obscene number of lascannons to take termies down, but who actually runs las in the competitive scene? On the otherhand redemptors are everywhere, and I dont think the math with the redemptor is favorable for terminators., and absolutely isnt for plague marines.
What type of Redemptors is he bringing because the plasma doesn't seem at all efficient against DG? I thought generally people ran them with plasma so is he tailoring his list against you with the gatling? Either way, I think a Redemptor will maybe kill a single terminator in shooting, a unit of 10 helblasters will kill another couple terminators. I'm not sure how you are losing so many models so early on.
I'd second the terrain suggestion too. We've been finding recently that we actively don't want to go first because with the more elite, less vehicle based armies and greater coverage of terrain, taking the first turn means you barely kill a single model.
MSU plague marines are certainly powerful, but my problem with them is that I just think poxwalkers are better. I’m now convinced poxwalkers are a top 3 unit in the dex as 20 man bricks are just so effective. Everyone is bringing low rate, high damage weapons to deal with the rest of our army and dark angles, and if not that then D1 weapons with AP-1 or -2 is the next choice. Both of these are punished by walkers, and I’ve found that them regaining lost models from both killing stuff and the dead walk again stratagem to be extremely powerful. Throw in mortal wounds and potential re-roll to hits and just don’t see why you’d want PM over walkers.
Poxwalkers are probably better, but you can only use the mortal wounds strat and raise the dead on one unit per turn. I've found two big units to be kind of the sweet spot if you can stagger one unit charging per turn and dropping the strat, especially if i am doing the action with the other if i take the secondary.
Hmmm, with different lists in mind. I was thinking of what would make a fairly nasty melee "group" that would charge up one flank. Kind of like the hammer and Anvil concept. Because DG strength is in their melee.
I toyed with deathshrouds as part of the group and these really are good. But they are also hideously expensive in points and they have the option to deep strike in anyway. And its a lot of points to add stuff like Noxious blightbringers and other support vireons to this.
With DP now able to be added alongside Lords. I was thinking about this. A slower moving terminator flank headed up by a Lord going up one flank (the Anvil) or the center, and a hard hitting melee focused flank going up the other side (hammer). And this hammer flank will be headed up by the DP.
So, what do you all think about a Hammer flank made up of 2x3 chaos spawn, a 10 man squad of possessed and 1 DP. Everything moves at least 7 inches. And first turn, we can put cloud of flies onto the big possessed unit to prevent them from being shot at. Force the opponent to get through the more expendable chaos spawn (which will be grandfathered for extra resilience). 10 possessed and 1 DP and whatever left of the chaos spawn is going to hit like a ton of bricks in combat.
If they clear the midboard objective, a slower moving poxwalker unit can move up and hold that center objective while this flank proceeds to press on towards the opponent's deployment zone.
I haven't run possessed yet, partly because I don't have any and partly because, tactically i didn't see what they offer over a mower drone. (both quick melee only threats,9w T7 vs 10w T5, 20 1D attacks vs 12 2D atttacks).
As you say, now winged DPs are a little more viable then thinking about a chaperone unit possessed suddenly seem a little more interesting with a way of giving them character support.
In 8th I occasionally used to run a DP up the flank with a helbrute and a drone or two. With <core> being a thing and helbrutes becoming only 6" move then maybe running possessed has legs.
Using cloud of flies on a big unit of possessed seems like an interesting idea and far cheaper in CP than trying to protect your Deathshroud. I'd probably like to keep a BioP with them too. Around 650pts to run up one side of the board seems like a reasonable option...
blackmage wrote: possesed are core and bubotic astartes so they can get some buffs, drone cant.
Sure, but my point was, without a DP they probably wouldn't be gaining much from being core as they would be outside of my castle taking advantage of their higher movement speed
It does make a difference, and with a DP having 8" move means they compliment quite nicely. I'm generally advancing my LOC and deathshroud etc first turn anyway.
That extra 2" can massively increase the odd of making what would be a long punt charge. And generally if you get lucky with a hail mary charge, you're probably unlikely to also be fortunate to get your support characters in too.
I find the 5" move terminator blob are often better off keeping their shape and staying in the various overlapping auras, even if that means being charged rather than charging themselves (FBS is invaluable here).
I would likely only run DP without wings if I am trying this. Wings cost too much for just 2 inch more movement. So the DP is also only 8 inch Movement. So, it fits possessed well. Spawn are also 7 inch movement. So, the whole group moves along quite closely very nicely. Since nothing has any ranged weapons worth noting, the whole group can advance freely without worrying it will mess up any shooting. So that's 7 or 8 inches plus a d6 advance. That sounds pretty decent. And don't forget, they go straight through ruins and benefit from cover within ruins too. So, they can get up the board decent enough.
In truth, i suspect mower drones will do what i would want a possessed and DP flank to do better anyway
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Eldenfirefly wrote: I would likely only run DP without wings if I am trying this. Wings cost too much for just 2 inch more movement. So the DP is also only 8 inch Movement. So, it fits possessed well. Spawn are also 7 inch movement. So, the whole group moves along quite closely very nicely.
with the faq on inexorable advance the wings are now more valuable but i agree still overcosted. To be honest, i think even without wings DP is not durable enough for its cost, i'm only really considering how to make use of them because I really like my conversion lol
Yeah, I got a DP too, so I kinda want to try out a version of a list that has a DP. lol. I mean, the deathshroud melee group advancing up the board is even slower. And bloat drones have their pros and cons too. For one, they are matchup dependent. Some lists have a fearsome amount of anti armor and bloat drones advancing up the board usually place themselves in a very exposed position to get shot at.
If one place on battlefield, is dangerous for a forward flying Drone, then this place is also dangerous for a forward flying DP. 9th characters are much more difficult to protect when they left large blob of soldiers.
I just find fleshmower drones never really do much. I always run 2, but they never make it across the board into a fight. They are so hard to hide with all those spikes. The only thing they are good at is soaking up some damage. I’m really considering taking them. In contrast.l, my contemptor with volkite gets some serious work done around my tallyman and is relic. It sure what to replace my mowers with... 270pts is enough to get some good stuff.
I agree, the mower drone is a bullet sponge which has its advantages but I like the HBL drone. I seem to be in the minority around here for that but I just find it consistently gets kills and survives far longer.
It's great for depleting an MSU of intercessors sat on a back objective and making your opponent suddenly have to change his plans and go back and shore up his defences.
It's much more consistent a ranged anti infantry than the PBC. But yeh, the volkite is awesome.
The only issue is if I’m going to run them as gun platforms in almost every circumstance I would rather have a contemptor with volkites l, MBH, or PBC. Both do significantly more damage. I just don’t understand why the HBL is so much more expensive
I’m looking at two units of three chaos spawns to replace one of the drones.
Contemptor with volkite is awesome I never leave home without one. But it can't always get the shot off you want.
I just find the HBL drone applies pressure to what would be a safe objective in a similar way to the PB mortar except it's far more consistent and better at killing primaris. It can also get in a scrap and it's quick and it's pretty tough and doesn't degrade.
I don't know what more to say, it just seems to always perform for me to the point where my regular opponents prioritise taking it out
MSU plague marines are certainly powerful, but my problem with them is that I just think poxwalkers are better. I’m now convinced poxwalkers are a top 3 unit in the dex as 20 man bricks are just so effective. Everyone is bringing low rate, high damage weapons to deal with the rest of our army and dark angles, and if not that then D1 weapons with AP-1 or -2 is the next choice. Both of these are punished by walkers, and I’ve found that them regaining lost models from both killing stuff and the dead walk again stratagem to be extremely powerful. Throw in mortal wounds and potential re-roll to hits and just don’t see why you’d want PM over walkers.
Just took third place in a local small tourney and Poxwalkers are wonderful. A group of them with mortal wound spamming and rerolls managed to take down Bobby.
Had 2x20 units of Poxwalkers and now I just want more.
First army was a Bobby run Ultramarine semi-Death Star list that was on foot. Lost against them because it was my first game with the new codex and was hugging too closely.
Second army was a Death Star White Scars list with ton of Bladeguard Veterans supported by a biker chaplain, Judicar, psyker and their chapter master. Won by 2 points.
last one was a Tau list that I basically tabled as they were unable to kill anything reliably.
My list
HQ -Typhus
- 2 x Malignant Plaguecasters
:: I had some overlapping psychic powers for redundancy and had the periapt relic on one plaguecaster.
Elites
- 5 Blightlord Terminators, One had the flail and the rest had combo bolters and bubotic axes
- 3 Deathshroud Terminators with minimal gear.
- Foetid Virions: Tallyman
Troops
- 2x20 Poxwalkers
- 2x5 Plague Marines with flail and blight launcher
Fast
- 3 Myphitic Blighthaulers
Heavy
- 2 x Plagueburst Crawlers with slugger and Entropy
My experience is that Tallyman is an auto take for me. Their +1 to hit on attack and the CP generation are really nice. The myphitic Blighthaulers, despite being expensive, really paid themselves off except in the first game where I over-extended with them. Against the White Scars they alone took out a Judicar, Primaris Psyker, a squad of Bladeguard veterans, and a squad of inceptors.
Plagueburst Crawlers were decent, but I feel like I need to find a better way to use them.
The biggest disappointments was Typhus as he rarely got into combat and when he did he encountered some super buffed marine hero that deleted him. Next time I'll probably try out deepstriking him to see if I can take out better units using him. Blightlord Terminators did okay, but they did more for me in regards to secondaries than actual damage output. Deathshroud, however, did a lot of damage.
Back on the topic of secondaries, yesterday I was struggling to pick a good third secondary for my Mortarion list against a DA list heavy on deathwing. Spread the sickness is indeed as good as people made out to be, while we stand was not as great because he actually managed to wipe out mortarion, a squad of terminators and ground down the second squad to just two members, leaving me with just 5 VP. As a third I took engage on all fronts, which only gained me 4 VP total. There were no good choices for purge the enemy, is there anything I could have picked besides engage?
I did win the game by 5 VP, but if he had picked better secondaries I would have definitely lost.
I would drop at least one plaguecaster personally, swap him for another of the Virion characters like biologus or Blightspawn.
I tend to think of typhus as a super durable malignant plaguecaster who gives out reroll 1s. To me he's a buffing character with good mortal wound output and a nasty melee threat as a counter attack.
Having three full psykers in your list personally I think seems too much. Our psychic discipline is okay, but you can normally pick which of the two MW output spells will be most effective in a game.
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Jidmah wrote: Back on the topic of secondaries, yesterday I was struggling to pick a good third secondary for my Mortarion list against a DA list heavy on deathwing. Spread the sickness is indeed as good as people made out to be, while we stand was not as great because he actually managed to wipe out mortarion, a squad of terminators and ground down the second squad to just two members, leaving me with just 5 VP. As a third I took engage on all fronts, which only gained me 4 VP total. There were no good choices for purge the enemy, is there anything I could have picked besides engage?
I did win the game by 5 VP, but if he had picked better secondaries I would have definitely lost.
My process tends to be this on secondaries and it has been working really well for me. The other night I picked up 90 something points against a nasty deathwing army.
1.Choosing domination on any map that has an odd number of objectives. It just means you can fully lean into holding objectives and doesn't divide your game plan at all. On the even objective maps I take despoiled ground and hope for maybe 9pts.
2. Mission specific. About half of them I'd say are good for us. I pretty much about anything that involves doing an action (except the scouring I think where you can perform the action multiple times in a turn). Again anything to do with controlling objectives just means I can focus my army fully on not getting pushed off objectives which is its biggest strength and most affective method of scoring.
3. Opponent specific. Obvious ones like assassinate, titan hunters, if I don't think their army can hurt me much then WWSWF, if they have a big army with lots of units then Grind.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Domination on a five objective map is great because if your mindset is to finish every one of your turns controlling three objectives you pick up points regardless then force your opponent to clear you off in order to stop you maxing primary.
It's always good to be dictating play, especially with a slow army.
