Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Abaddon303**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Abaddon303 wrote:
I've just found whenever I drop the strat on a PBC I then roll a 1 for number of shots. I miss or fail to wound with at least one of the entropy cannons without fail too so they just seem to be incredibly swingy.

I appreciate that's anecdotally bad fortune, but even if you roll the big 6 for number of shots you'll statistically only kill a single eradicator without the strat. That's a hell of a lot of points to deal with a single unit, I know they are really nasty but still.
If they're starting on the board I think I'd rather take my chances, wait until they emerge, probably lose something like a drone and then hit them with a Contemptor which should wipe the unit in one go.

I feel that the role of PBCs isn't to demolish your opponent's army. DG are not a leaf blower sort of army. The PBCs are there to engage your opponent's artillery in a shooting duel for the whole game and keep them busy. It doesn't matter how many PBCs survive till turn 5, as long as they kept your opponent's heavy support busy the whole game so that they don't shoot the rest of your army. The PBC guns are definitely swingy. But if they are there firing the whole game, it evens out.

The entropy cannons are the ones that do the big damage when they hit and get through. The mortar is more of a terror weapon. It targets the fragile units hiding behind obscuring terrain thinking they are safe and reminds them that they are not safe. This makes the PBC a big target, which it is happy to be because it is a tanky boy.

So like for example, a squad of bikes and attack bikes hiding behind obscuring terrain. Your PBCs rain mortar on them and they lose one or two bikes. The damage won't demolish a whole unit, but its the psycological attack. Suddenly, he feels that he has to do something with his bikes, or take out your PBCs, because if he just stays there, they will just keep on being whittled down by your mortars. So he risks moving them out to take a pot shot at your PBC, and then that exposes the bikes to get shot at directly by the entropy cannons or other guns.

Consider this. If you had no PBCs keeping their heavy support busy in an artillery duel, then their heavy support will target the next most tanky unit in your army. And that's likely to be your terminators, or maybe your FBD if you are running those. I rather they shoot their heavy guns at my PBCs the whole game in the end. Because its the terminators and my other units that will take the mid field objectives to help me win the game. The PBCs are literally expendable (unless they are chosen as the secondary "while we stand we fight".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marshal Loss wrote:
A few nice DG lists from a recent GT in NZ.

Hmm, interesting. mortarion may actually be advantageous in a DG vs DG match, because DG is usually not Shooty enough to threaten Mortarion.

I mean, I don't mean to be a dick but the idea of some kind of artillery duel is laughable. If your opponent wants it dead it will die pretty quickly. It's definitely not going to draw your opponents artillery for five turns. I'm actually struggling to think what sort of artillery people are taking these days, most anti tank boils down to a multi melta in the face these days. If you are trading long shots these days, a single demolisher tank commander will likely take it out in one go, a unit of Lascannon havocs with Abaddon stood next to them will probably cripple it if they're sensible with damage rerolls.

The ignore LOS is nice, but as you say, it's good for picking up soft targets that are hiding, so S8 -2 2D just seems overkill compared to something like a whirlwind doing twice as many shots for 2/3 the price. And I don't rate whirlwinds either.

I just feel that 175pts is a hell of a lot of points for something that very often doesn't put a single wound on your opponents army. For the same price you can have a Contemptor putting out around 4 MWs at 45" plus a couple of missiles hitting on 2s.

**Eldenfirefly**

Maybe I shouldn't use "artillery duel". More appropriate term would be a "cat and mouse" duel.

Perhaps this video best explains what I am trying to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEHtgtKmFXQ&ab_channel=ArtofWar40k

This link was a match between Richard Sieglar playing ad mech vs Nick Nanavati playing the new Death Guard. Both of them are competitive warhammer 40k players who have attended many tournaments.

So Nick had 2 PBCs and 1 contemptor dreadnaught facing off against 3 Skorpius distintegrators (ferrumite cannon) and 5 ironstriders (all cognis lascannons).

That's 500 points of deathguard heavy shootng vs 840 points of dedicated tank busting.

By the end of the game, Nick had 1 Contemptor and 1 PBC still alive facing 2 Skorpius disintegrators still alive. The point I am trying to make is that Nick's 2 PBCs and 1 Contemptor worth 500 points kept 840 points of admech busy till the end of the game. And admech is one of the most shootiest army out there.

If this was in a void, it would be over by turn 2. But there is obscuring terrain around. (If you are playing with zero obscuring terrain, you are not playing what a proper matched play terrain would be like).

So play cat and mouse for the whole game with your opponent's heavy shooting. That was my point. Just look at the video for some reference.

**blackmage**

Hmm, interesting. mortarion may actually be advantageous in a DG vs DG match, because DG is usually not Shooty enough to threaten Mortarion

.
hardly morty does much against a DG, he cant remove the bunch of troops (poxes and/or Pm) or termies, he get into never ending melee. Still ppls believe that mortarion can be neutered only by firepower....10 Bl with spawn and biologus are unchargeable my mortarion, just an example.
Marine lists will change to fit new DG, unsure if PBC are really mandatory, usually i run anyway 2 of them.

**Eldenfirefly**

Ah ok. I was just wondering because the top 2 DG lists both ran Mortarion and they didn't lose except against other DG lists. So I wondered if Mortarion made the difference in a mirror matchup.

**blackmage**

i would try play the last list, just tons of infantry fully buffed, i would just add a biologus or a surgeon in that list.

**Salt donkey**

Abaddon303 wrote:
^like that list a lot. I might try a variation on that myself but I'll prob drop a PBC for something as they're not doing much for me recently.

Couple of things, the lord of contagion and Tallyman only buff <plague company>. It isn't a problem going the other way as Typhus buffs Death Guard so can happily be in a separate plague company and the Blightspawn is only affecting enemy units but it might be worth moving your deathshroud into the vanguard so you don't have to remember that they can't be buffed by your LOC or tally. Unless I'm missing something that made you choose to do it this way?

Second thing was, what secondaries are you running with this list? While we stand?

Indeed I am running while we stand, one of the DG specific ones depending on mission, and often times banners since characters can raise.
Domination and engage on all fronts are also options.

Also if no one answered you yet, the deathshroud have to be in the harbingers detachment in order to let me take the poxwalkers there. At least according to BattleScribe, I haven’t double checked the book yet.

Also what are you using instead of the PBC. I agree they are lackluster, but DgG need efficient long range options and the Mortar has small upside being able indirect fire gun.

**Abaddon303**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Maybe I shouldn't use "artillery duel". More appropriate term would be a "cat and mouse" duel.

Perhaps this video best explains what I am trying to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEHtgtKmFXQ&ab_channel=ArtofWar40k

This link was a match between Richard Sieglar playing ad mech vs Nick Nanavati playing the new Death Guard. Both of them are competitive warhammer 40k players who have attended many tournaments.

So Nick had 2 PBCs and 1 contemptor dreadnaught facing off against 3 Skorpius distintegrators (ferrumite cannon) and 5 ironstriders (all cognis lascannons).

That's 500 points of deathguard heavy shootng vs 840 points of dedicated tank busting.

By the end of the game, Nick had 1 Contemptor and 1 PBC still alive facing 2 Skorpius disintegrators still alive. The point I am trying to make is that Nick's 2 PBCs and 1 Contemptor worth 500 points kept 840 points of admech busy till the end of the game. And admech is one of the most shootiest army out there.

If this was in a void, it would be over by turn 2. But there is obscuring terrain around. (If you are playing with zero obscuring terrain, you are not playing what a proper matched play terrain would be like).

So play cat and mouse for the whole game with your opponent's heavy shooting. That was my point. Just look at the video for some reference.

I haven't watched the video but I'll try to tomorrow. I would say tho the disintegrators are not great against DG.

I reckon if a disintegrator fired at a PBC for 5 turns it would just about wreck it. Granted that's a decent bit of firepower that the PBC has drawn. But if the PBC wasn't there and instead the disintegrator was free to fire into your Blightlords for instance, it would just about kill 3 terminators throughout the course of the game. That's not accounting for the termis potentially getting cover or miasma etc.

So I guess the question I'm asking of the PBC, is why draw fire away from your termis, isn't it better value to just take more and let your opponent shoot them...

**ArcaneHorror**

What's the best way to get possessed up the field without a transport? There is the use of cover, but I can't count on that.

**blackmage**

ArcaneHorror wrote:
What's the best way to get possessed up the field without a transport? There is the use of cover, but I can't count on that.

try cloud of flies until you can.

**lindsay40k**

ArcaneHorror wrote:
What's the best way to get possessed up the field without a transport? There is the use of cover, but I can't count on that.

Soup with a Gnarlmaw and WB or TS Warptimer, you’ll usually get a deep charge T1

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

Not having access to FW Datasheets at the moment, what makes Contemptors, tempting? Do they gain any of the Plague Company benefits, despite having FW's brand of not-quite update rules?

**novembermike**

Contemptors are Bubonic Astartes Core so they're buffable by Tallyman.

**blackmage**

lindsay40k wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
What's the best way to get possessed up the field without a transport? There is the use of cover, but I can't count on that.

Soup with a Gnarlmaw and WB or TS Warptimer, you’ll usually get a deep charge T1

lost -1T is a thing to ponder, soup stuff is not always a big deal.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Not having access to FW Datasheets at the moment, what makes Contemptors, tempting? Do they gain any of the Plague Company benefits, despite having FW's brand of not-quite update rules?

they get, as said above, the buffs, and they are quite "cheap" maybe ponder play 2 of them instead PBC, not being core is a big limit.

**Abaddon303**

Contemptor with volkite puts out really reliable damage due to rate of fire and MW output. Doesn't really care about toughness, armour, invulnerable saves etc. Buffed by a Tallyman will basically put at least 5w on anything you point it at every turn at 45" and it's reasonably tanky considering it has the range to stay out of the worst of trouble

Multimelta and chainfist is also a nice loadout. Obviously anything carrying a multimelta at the moment is decent, it moves 8" so can get in close reasonably easy and the chainfist does flat 4 damage. With the missiles it's 180pts and ends up with a very similar output to a redemptor dread which obviously currently are flavour of the month.

The redemptor has 13w while the Contemptor has 9 so doesn't degrade and has a 5+ inv. To be honest if I was playing loyalists I'd take the redemptor but I think they're pretty comparable.

**tokugawa**

Abaddon303 wrote:
Contemptor with volkite puts out really reliable damage due to rate of fire and MW output. Doesn't really care about toughness, armour, invulnerable saves etc. Buffed by a Tallyman will basically put at least 5w on anything you point it at every turn at 45" and it's reasonably tanky considering it has the range to stay out of the worst of trouble

Multimelta and chainfist is also a nice loadout. Obviously anything carrying a multimelta at the moment is decent, it moves 8" so can get in close reasonably easy and the chainfist does flat 4 damage. With the missiles it's 180pts and ends up with a very similar output to a redemptor dread which obviously currently are flavour of the month.

The redemptor has 13w while the Contemptor has 9 so doesn't degrade and has a 5+ inv. To be honest if I was playing loyalists I'd take the redemptor but I think they're pretty comparable.

Never a fan of melee dreads(hellbrutes). They are rather vulnerable to melta, and dont't really provide anything which DG lacks.

If Despoiled ground secondary is picked, you would like to keep one BUBONIC astartes unit stay in your own deployment zone. This role is perfect for a shooty contemptor.

**Abaddon303**

tokugawa wrote:
Abaddon303 wrote:
Contemptor with volkite puts out really reliable damage due to rate of fire and MW output. Doesn't really care about toughness, armour, invulnerable saves etc. Buffed by a Tallyman will basically put at least 5w on anything you point it at every turn at 45" and it's reasonably tanky considering it has the range to stay out of the worst of trouble

Multimelta and chainfist is also a nice loadout. Obviously anything carrying a multimelta at the moment is decent, it moves 8" so can get in close reasonably easy and the chainfist does flat 4 damage. With the missiles it's 180pts and ends up with a very similar output to a redemptor dread which obviously currently are flavour of the month.

The redemptor has 13w while the Contemptor has 9 so doesn't degrade and has a 5+ inv. To be honest if I was playing loyalists I'd take the redemptor but I think they're pretty comparable.

Never a fan of melee dreads(hellbrutes). They are rather vulnerable to melta, and dont't really provide anything which DG lacks.

If Despoiled ground secondary is picked, you would like to keep one BUBONIC astartes unit stay in your own deployment zone. This role is perfect for a shooty contemptor.

I mean it's more mixed than just melee and provides some serious anti-tank which DG arent exactly swimming in. If you compare it to a MBH it has the exact same defensive profile so no more vulnerable. The difference between the two is for 40pts more, the Contemptor kicks out far superior melee and an extra missile, plus it can get core buffs

**tokugawa**

Abaddon303 wrote:
tokugawa wrote:
Abaddon303 wrote:
Contemptor with volkite puts out really reliable damage due to rate of fire and MW output. Doesn't really care about toughness, armour, invulnerable saves etc. Buffed by a Tallyman will basically put at least 5w on anything you point it at every turn at 45" and it's reasonably tanky considering it has the range to stay out of the worst of trouble

Multimelta and chainfist is also a nice loadout. Obviously anything carrying a multimelta at the moment is decent, it moves 8" so can get in close reasonably easy and the chainfist does flat 4 damage. With the missiles it's 180pts and ends up with a very similar output to a redemptor dread which obviously currently are flavour of the month.

The redemptor has 13w while the Contemptor has 9 so doesn't degrade and has a 5+ inv. To be honest if I was playing loyalists I'd take the redemptor but I think they're pretty comparable.

Never a fan of melee dreads(hellbrutes). They are rather vulnerable to melta, and dont't really provide anything which DG lacks.

If Despoiled ground secondary is picked, you would like to keep one BUBONIC astartes unit stay in your own deployment zone. This role is perfect for a shooty contemptor.

I mean it's more mixed than just melee and provides some serious anti-tank which DG arent exactly swimming in. If you compare it to a MBH it has the exact same defensive profile so no more vulnerable. The difference between the two is for 40pts more, the Contemptor kicks out far superior melee and an extra missile, plus it can get core buffs

If any player still want to bring MBH to a tournament, he would always active the "Belching fumes" strategem when needed. That would reduce 50% the output of a multi-melta. The difference between the two could be up to 100%.

**Abaddon303**

Hmm, this is true. You actually inspired me to revisit that strat, it's actually pretty strong. When I first read it, I thought you used it reactively against a single attack.
So all multi meltas and twin Lascannons etc get half shots? How does that affect eradicators double shooting? It says reduce the number of attacks with that weapon by one...

**tokugawa**

Abaddon303 wrote:
Hmm, this is true. You actually inspired me to revisit that strat, it's actually pretty strong. When I first read it, I thought you used it reactively against a single attack.
So all multi meltas and twin Lascannons etc get half shots? How does that affect eradicators double shooting? It says reduce the number of attacks with that weapon by one...

Unfortunately, it don't work against eradicators. Eradicators' ability is "shoot twice with heavy 1(assault1) weapon".

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

Isn't the Hellforged Contemptor's mortal-wound gun only an 24" range? I thought Chaos Contemptor's don't get proper Volkite?

**Abaddon303**

You're thinking of the old soulburners.

Contemptors in the new Forgeworld book can take two 45" twin volkite culverins which gives you 16 shots at S6 0AP 2D but every unmodified wound of 6 is a MW.

Sheer weight of fire means you are likely to get at least 2/4 regular damage through a save plus an average of 3 MWs. Not bad consistently killing a couple of Custodes etc at 45"

**blackmage**

in the right list its ap is -1 thanks to ferric blight.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

Abaddon303 wrote:
You're thinking of the old soulburners.

Contemptors in the new Forgeworld book can take two 45" twin volkite culverins which gives you 16 shots at S6 0AP 2D but every unmodified wound of 6 is a MW.

Sheer weight of fire means you are likely to get at least 2/4 regular damage through a save plus an average of 3 MWs. Not bad consistently killing a couple of Custodes etc at 45"

Edit: Yikes... I didn't even notice that FW issued a new book. A lot of stuff I once loved is going back on the shelf... Sorry my extremely expensive Deredeo and Leviathan. :-p

**Abaddon303**

Leviathan is still great. It's about two thirds of the price it was and is still devestating with two storm cannons.

**tokugawa**

blackmage wrote:
in the right list its ap is -1 thanks to ferric blight.

I think every DG list which want to make some use of FW stuff, would pick <Inexorable> as their company choice.

**l0k1**

So I played a 2k game against my buddy's blood angels yesterday. We had to call it at the end of turn 3 since the shop was closing. I won 37-27 but if we had continued I was poised to start gaining tons of primary points and max Spread the Sickness.

My dice were either fire or 1s, but most of the bad rolls were negligible. The worst rolls I had were my turn 2 charges and the Tallyman's CP ability. I failed charge rolls for 4 different units, a 5th unit made the charge with the command reroll on turn 2. A few I could understand since the Deathshrouds just came out of deepstrike, but Morty and the Bloat Drone only needed like 5 kr 6 inches. Poxwalkers did a surprising amount of work. Mutant Strain with just a unit of 10 poxwalkers netted 2 dead lightning claw terminators, I took 2 mortals but it balanced out since those 2 came back. Deathshrouds blended everything they touched as did Mortarion. A plagueburst crawler got charged by a 10 man death company squad with a couple of power fists and survived 2 round of combat thanks to the new disgustingly resilient. Tallyman got me 1 CP out of the whole game. Since I held my 2 units of Deathshrouds, 1 unit of Blightlords, and Lord of Virulence in deepstrike the Tallyman and Mortarion's abilities to buff core units was completely unused for 2 turns. I almost want to run a 10 plague marine squad just to justify the Tallyman a bit.

**blackmage**

tallyman work great with a big bunch of BL, no need to deepstrike them if you have some deathshrouds, a full 10 man marine squad with bolters+blighlauncher is ok with tallyman. BA is one of armies that actually suffer DG, they have to close up to you so they get hit by all your debuffing and if you have a vats blightspawn is super hard for them successfully charge something.
Impression about PBC? im not so sure they are needed so much.

**l0k1**

blackmage wrote:
tallyman work great with a big bunch of BL, no need to deepstrike them if you have some deathshrouds, a full 10 man marine squad with bolters+blighlauncher is ok with tallyman. BA is one of armies that actually suffer DG, they have to close up to you so they get hit by all your debuffing and if you have a vats blightspawn is super hard for them successfully charge something.
Impression about PBC? im not so sure they are needed so much.

I deep struck the Blightlords with the Lord of Virulence to try and max Despoiled Ground, which I did. If I didn't run Mortarion I probably would've run a 10 man Blightlord Terminator unit. I didn't run the Blightspawn, because I forgot him. PBCs did harass a few units with the mortar cannon and soften them up for other units to charge them. One of the PBC tied up a scary unit of Death Company with the help of a squad of Poxwalkers. I lost the Crawler, but keeping that unit tied up saved my backfield. I think the PBCs aren't TERRIBLY scary with the d6 mortar shots, but not needing line of sight does force people to deal with them or lose their backfield objective campers. I think 2 are good, 3 might be over doing it unless you want a really shooting list.

I'd also like to point out that with Spread the Sickness, your opponent can't decontaminate the objectives you've already hit which is pretty nice. Not amazing, but worth noting.

**Kryddbov**

Anyone had any luck with running a flamer heavy list and Mortarions son's?

Im thinking 10 Marines with 2 Spewers and 2 Belchers. Put them in a Rhino and pop the 2dmg stratagem when firing. Overwhelming generosity is there if you need some extra range, and Eternal Hatred aswell for that sweet +1 to wound.

4d6 auto hits with dmg2.

Alternatively, deepstrike 6 Deathshrouds with an additional gauntlet on the champ. 7d6 hits with dmg 2.

**Abaddon303**

I'm inclined to think the flamers take too much set up for not huge gains. You're tied into a not great plague company that I'm not sure is outweighed by the value of autohits when you can easily get a 2+ to hit and exploding 6s on a unit of marines.

You're averaging 3.5 hits but the spewers and belcher hits aren't particularly high quality and have short range when your bolters/b launchers/plasma can be doing work from further out.

Granted you can extend the range and give 2 damage but that's more CP being spent when you don't know how well you'll roll for hits and still need to get wounds through with only 0/-1ap. You're not gonna be getting masses of 2D wounds through on anything that matters.

I'd also say DG don't really have an issue causing damage at short range, even PMs set up for shooting are still nasty in melee so if you're under 12" away from something you can hurt with flamers you can almost certainly hurt it in melee and you're just gonna make your charge roll higher.

I guess overwatch and the FBS would make the unit really nasty to charge but relies on your opponent being a little silly choosing to charge such a unit.

I dunno, maybe they can work but I think I'd rather spend the 30pts for the flamers on something else tbh..