Savings on them vary a little, the standard seems to be £50 of stuff for £35, but the ratkin and goblin sets are higher with £67.50 worth in the ratkin set and £85 (!) in the goblin set.
I see these as much more broadly useful than the army sets since it's basically buy two regiments, get a 30% discount. 40 minis for £35 RRP is really good and brings Mantic's hard plastics much closer to the pricing on oathmark or wargames atlantic.
Those are a heck of a good deal. $45 for 2-3 regiments and intro rules and army lists. This is the sort of intro product KoW was needing. Also, they seem to be core units and so an enticing deal for exisiting armies that want to bulk up too. I think these deals actually bring the cost of Mantic minis at or below Oathmark or Wargames Atlantic.
I'm still not won over by Mantics style, but this sort of pricing and packaging is going to attract some customers.
lord_blackfang wrote: It's going to be a bit annoying since there's no way to fill out the Mincer unit now, would rather have seen it go up 10€
i have never used a chariot base unit at regiment level or larger and always either got single or troop (hence why I would never get the Ogre MegaArmy Box)
are Regiments really worth it?
though in this case I would use the 2 Mincer also as single models rather than a mob, but the box is also a good base for a Chariot Horde, you can make the Hero on Chariot and if you get the Renedra Barrel set (or print some) build a Blaster
though in this case I would use the 2 Mincer also as single models rather than a mob, but the box is also a good base for a Chariot Horde, you can make the Hero on Chariot and if you get the Renedra Barrel set (or print some) build a Blaster
If the same kit build a chariot they're quite versatile. Could build kings on chariots, mincers or convert a blaster.
The Ratkin one is the only set with a PVC model (I guess because they did not want to add Resin for beginners and there is no other small kit that fits in the points)
And as far as we know everything else are the full HIPS frames (so also Ogre Boomers, Chariots etc are possible), the unis listed are just there to make equal sized lists and help beginners to chose (rather than generic 40 Goblins, like on the army box)
Another thing to report, since this does get mentioned a *lot* on here - Mantic is emailing out £25 webstore vouchers to anyone who backed the Kings of War RPG Kickstarter.
So, they're taking a hit and compensating backers for the project creators going AWOL and not delivering anything.
Check your KS email if you backed it, there should be a discount code email in there somewhere. They now have their own Dungeon Adventures RPG boxes to spend it on, too.
scarletsquig wrote: So, they're taking a hit and compensating backers for the project creators going AWOL and not delivering anything.
They've also promised that when they partner with someone more reliable and do make a KoW related RPG, then they'll send it to backers for the postage fee.
Indeed, a nice move on their part. Does Mantic sell STLs and digital files to avoid shipping charges? The last time I looked at their site the shipping to the US and worldwide (including the EU) wasn't cheap though obviously they don't have direct control over that.
Mantic sells digital books at the moment, but does have plans to sell STLs sometime next year.
Some sprue pics of the chariots can be found in this review, one thing that's interesting is that the parts to make the goblin mincer are also hard plastic and included with every chariot (even the ogre kits).
Lots of potential to magnetize that kit 7 ways (goblin/orc/ogre/herd/mincer/red goblin blaster/orc fight wagon), I might try to find some suitable boars to go with the ogres and beastmen/herd options.
scarletsquig wrote: Mantic sells digital books at the moment, but does have plans to sell STLs sometime next year.
Thanks for the info. I think I read elsewhere that the store credit is time gated so it sounds like affected backers of the rpg can only get some free rules. Still, it's a gesture they weren't obligated to make after the failure of a licensee so it's still nice. And at least if they're a UK backer then they can use the credit for actual minis of their choice.
Some sprue pics of the chariots can be found in this review, one thing that's interesting is that the parts to make the goblin mincer are also hard plastic and included with every chariot (even the ogre kits).
Lots of potential to magnetize that kit 7 ways (goblin/orc/ogre/herd/mincer/red goblin blaster/orc fight wagon), I might try to find some suitable boars to go with the ogres and beastmen/herd options.
A geat review of some of the newer plastics. I'm glad someone finally gave the ogres a bathroom break with the new sculpt as it's a definite improvement. The pug creatures pulling the chariots aren't doing the line any favors though.
nice review, and replacing the head of the Mawbeast with a 3D printed Rhino or Boar for Ogres or Ocrs is pretty easy that way and it is also possible to just replace the head
warboss wrote: The last time I looked at their site the shipping to the US and worldwide (including the EU) wasn't cheap though obviously they don't have direct control over that.
EU has been hit hardest by Mantics new shipping I would say, it currently cost basically the same to ship something over the Atlantic as it cost to ship it over the English channel.
And on top of that EU is the only region that has no possibility of free shipping
Looks like the chariot kit is very versatile when it comes to mounts, and thus could be used by many fantasy armies/games. I wonder, just like the reviewer, why they were there not as sprues?
Has Mantic redone the plastic goblins?!
I missed that.
The Ambush pics make them look fantastic.
They look like old school GW gobbos, but seem to have a viciousness in the expressions.
warboss wrote: The last time I looked at their site the shipping to the US and worldwide (including the EU) wasn't cheap though obviously they don't have direct control over that.
EU has been hit hardest by Mantics new shipping I would say, it currently cost basically the same to ship something over the Atlantic as it cost to ship it over the English channel.
And on top of that EU is the only region that has no possibility of free shipping
Are there European dealers? It's been years since I ordered anything direct from Mantic. Generally, I think domestic dealers are the place to go for lower prices and better-or-free shipping costs
warboss wrote: The last time I looked at their site the shipping to the US and worldwide (including the EU) wasn't cheap though obviously they don't have direct control over that.
EU has been hit hardest by Mantics new shipping I would say, it currently cost basically the same to ship something over the Atlantic as it cost to ship it over the English channel.
And on top of that EU is the only region that has no possibility of free shipping
Are there European dealers? It's been years since I ordered anything direct from Mantic. Generally, I think domestic dealers are the place to go for lower prices and better-or-free shipping costs
I would be willing to bet there are a number of European dealers that don't want to deal with mantic.
there are plenty of retailers by now and some of them also sell/order Mantic Direct products (usually on request and not by default)
main problem is usually that shipping within EU is not cheap either and specially if ordering from Germany as they often have a default 15/20€ shipping no matter what you order
so depending on the country you are, ordering from within the EU or Mantic makes no big difference
Store credits on their website is time gated, yes. Ordering on it is only interesting for UK based customers nowadays.
The chorus here "they didn't need to do that" is nice and all, but reality is they kinda did because they rely a lot on their community for their games (and practices) to survive. Mantic Games related kickstarters don't have a good reputation already because there were a lot of hit and miss in the past (not to speak about the quality of the products delivered), so they can't afford themselves to be painted badly by anyone and since when they actually do a new kickstarter, there's always someone who remembers the past ones in it... And that's a good way too to boost their sales on their website for stats.
There are European dealers, just they're way fewer than before the Brexit because import taxes / postage fees simply kill it. Quality of Mantic Games products isn't that good to justify prices that are very close to GW in the end when you add all the gak you have to pay to get them at home.
It's not a hazard if most of the fanbase is UK based, in the end. It's just reinforced since Brexit, that's all. Besides, I'm not really sure Mantic Games actually care that much about the European market...it was never the biggest for them, in the end.
NEW PLASTIC ALERT! As well as the new Ambush sets, two of our Mantic IP armies will be getting new hard plastic kits, new models and Army sets in the summer! Anyone who has seen the new Ogres will appreciate the new standard we have set ourselves and we cant wait to get them into your hands! Both the updated Armies will also see a new Ambush starter set hitting the shelves upon release.
Let the rumours commence!
Plus of course there’s the super exciting launch of the Twilight Kin before Christmas next year. You don’t want to aVOID that! Expect a whole bunch of hype when we have more to show you… but i’ll just leave you with this…
Spoiler:
Armada:
We have a bumper year for Armada, with two new fleets (well, perhaps technically more than two!), plus and new book and interactive scenery all spread nicely across the year!
Ronnie has already gone overboard and spilled the beans about the new Trident Realm Fleet coming around March time. This fantastically fishy flotilla will see an incredible array of sea creatures taking to the high seas of Pannithor and causing havoc to unsuspecting boats! I’m going one better than Ronnie, so here is a teaser for one or two of the painted TR ‘boats’.
The amazing Mantic Companion App, which will continue to grow and add new features and content to support our games, will see Armada being added in the early months of the year. So be sure your phone or tablet is waterproof and take it out on deck with you!
“Interactive scenery, you say?” well that’s sure to cause an eruption or two!
Spoiler:
Dungeon Saga Origins
YES THAT’S RIGHT!
We are set to revisit the Dungeon Saga adventuring party and like any great franchise, it’s origin story time!
And we are making something for kids, mums and dads, and tabletop newbies everywhere!
Dungeon Saga Origins will have inspiring adventures, cool minis, character progression, multiple settings, solo, co-op and PvP options, fearful monsters, heinous baddies and of course you the brave adventuring party! It is easy to learn and playable straight out of the box. DSO will be the best way to get adventuring with anyone you want to get into tabletop games! Watch this space early 2023 for more information and to see the cool stuff planned for this brilliant game.
They changed the App Subscription to Bronze (army builder for 1 game), Silver (everything for 1 game), Gold (everything) level
and Silver/Gold subscribers get the pdf version of new supplements on release day in addition to the LRB in the App
also some talk about the tournament/event organiser and the Living Rulebook in general
for the Ambush kits, I had several people asking, specially to compare it to the 2 player set about them but the local store still has them on pre-order so don't know if the sell or not
Thanks for the recap! I'm happy to have a more affordable tier, I've been putting off thinking about what happens when Mantic comes calling for that subscription money and I have to delete all my lists
I don't hate these, but it's just another example of Mantic's relentless pursuit of "adequate".
I'm not in the market for a fantasy army right now, but it's been a long time since Mantic put out an army that made me say "oh I'd like to collect that!"
Eilif wrote: I don't hate these, but it's just another example of Mantic's relentless pursuit of "adequate".
I'm not in the market for a fantasy army right now, but it's been a long time since Mantic put out an army that made me say "oh I'd like to collect that!"
It's a very timely video for me as I was about to order the mantic EOD Ambush set....I will not now. By the time I fix the spears, I could get my printer up and running again and buy a nicer STL.
I’ve got some of the EOD and I quite like them. Of course, I didn’t assemble any with the spears…. The swords are nice, and the bows look better when reversed (cut and turned around to look more like recurve bows) in my opinion. The spear tips, when cut from the shafts and attached to the hands, make fun “exotic” daggers. If you like everything else but hate the spears, it’s not like they have no other options.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I’ve got some of the EOD and I quite like them. Of course, I didn’t assemble any with the spears…. The swords are nice, and the bows look better when reversed (cut and turned around to look more like recurve bows) in my opinion. The spear tips, when cut from the shafts and attached to the hands, make fun “exotic” daggers. If you like everything else but hate the spears, it’s not like they have no other options.
That's a good point. Alternate spears are not hard to source so if one likes the models, it'd likely be worth it at Mantic's prices to source new spears rather than buying completely different figures.
Sounds like you've come up with some nice clever mods for the other weapons also.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I’ve got some of the EOD and I quite like them. Of course, I didn’t assemble any with the spears…. The swords are nice, and the bows look better when reversed (cut and turned around to look more like recurve bows) in my opinion. The spear tips, when cut from the shafts and attached to the hands, make fun “exotic” daggers. If you like everything else but hate the spears, it’s not like they have no other options.
That's a good point. Alternate spears are not hard to source so if one likes the models, it'd likely be worth it at Mantic's prices to source new spears rather than buying completely different figures.
Sounds like you've come up with some nice clever mods for the other weapons also.
The problem I have with all of that is "Why even buy them if I have to convert half to begin with?" I can do that easy enough, but now with 3D printing, I could print models and convert them for cheaper. Mantic started out as the poor mans Warhammer fantasy, but the prices keep going up like GW with a lower level of skill in the sculpts. I really like the basic Kings of War game rules, but the models have been leaving me feeling blah. I was even looking at sourcing models from Ankh to build a Kings of war EOD army, almost as expensive, but they all look better to me without the fuss of fixing a spear or bow (2 really easy to have made correctly items to begin with).
3D printing is its own thing, and will likely be cheaper than any plastic option. For great, non-printed minis, TTCombat had a kickstarter a few years ago for more Tomb Kings-like Egyptian skellies, and those are very nice. They are resin, and the big sets might be comparable price wise to Mantic’s big EOD sets. (I haven’t checked in a while.)
Spears are tricky
I recently had the EoD, Victrix Saxons, Stormcast and FireForge historical infantry on the table
the EoD and the FF ones just look off with their size, while the Saxons look best but break easily, same as the Stormcast
So need to replace them anyway, the FF & EoD because they look strange, the Stormcast and Victrix ones because they break (though for the Stormcast also the Hammers break which is more annoying than the replacing the spears).
Though the EoD ones can get away with hero scale fantasy models, they don't need to look realistic (unlike the FireForge ones) and as the models don't just sit on the shelf I really appreciate stuff that does not break (I shelved my FoN Stormcast Army simply because it is annoying to constantly glue the weapons and I was not in the mood to replace the shafts with copper on painted models yet)
So I can understand why they were going for that style, though a little less might have worked also (but would still look off)
Fantasy nautical warfare isn't my thing, but I have to give Mantic (and moreover, whoever the sculptors were) credit for those creature ships. Some highly imaginative, well-executed designs there.
kodos wrote: Spears are tricky
I recently had the EoD, Victrix Saxons, Stormcast and FireForge historical infantry on the table
the EoD and the FF ones just look off with their size, while the Saxons look best but break easily, same as the Stormcast
So need to replace them anyway, the FF & EoD because they look strange, the Stormcast and Victrix ones because they break (though for the Stormcast also the Hammers break which is more annoying than the replacing the spears).
Though the EoD ones can get away with hero scale fantasy models, they don't need to look realistic (unlike the FireForge ones) and as the models don't just sit on the shelf I really appreciate stuff that does not break (I shelved my FoN Stormcast Army simply because it is annoying to constantly glue the weapons and I was not in the mood to replace the shafts with copper on painted models yet)
So I can understand why they were going for that style, though a little less might have worked also (but would still look off)
Good points all around. I generally err on the side of a bit too big for durability, but too big is too big.
The pvc spears on my Runewars figures might not be perfectly straight, but I've only broken 1 out of 32 . Even classic lead spears will give you a couple unbends before they snap.
Historical gamers have long used wire stock with or without metal ends. But often those are too thin too look right with with heroic miniatures.
The sense I get from so many of Mantic's releases is "this would have been great 15 years ago". Which is to say there is often nothing cripplingly wrong with them, they just aren't up to par with the competition. They need to be either cheaper or better, for the most part, to attract my interest.
NinthMusketeer wrote: The sense I get from so many of Mantic's releases is "this would have been great 15 years ago". Which is to say there is often nothing cripplingly wrong with them, they just aren't up to par with the competition. They need to be either cheaper or better, for the most part, to attract my interest.
Yeah. Just a little too much nostalgia for 'how Citadel used to be', combined with - IMO - just a taste of a near-historical-gaming 'as long as you've got a token on the table' attitude.
The Dreadfleet Armada minis look alright. Just alright. (I maybe need to look harder - are there any ships in the game, or just these creatures wearing Time Bandits hats?)
I'm surprised that this hasn't been picked up here yet. They're doing a new KS for dungeon saga (apparently) soon. New models and all that jazz. New old models? Models.
Which includes the first piece of new Twilight Kin art I've seen for a while (nicked from website).
TLDR of Ronnie's raving: New models, but not hard plastic. Similar to but not the same as the original in terms of gameplay (is this 2nd?). 3 expansions: goblin, evil dwarfs, naughty elves.
I spent a few hundred on Ronnie's promise of Mantic's Warhammer Quest style boardgame. Instead, I got Jake Thornton's Heroquest, by Jake Thornton for Jake "I hate RPG elements in my boardgames, and WHQ had a book named 'Roleplay Book" Thornton.
I'd be interested in hearing both of your observations on the previous edition of Dungeon Saga.
A couple years ago I considered it and Heroquest. Went with Heroquest and am happy with it as a fun light dungeon crawler. But as is suggested, it is not really an RPG.
I’ve played Star Saga, which I assume is similar to Dungeon Saga. It was fine. I had fun playing it. The cardboard tiles were distractingly flimsy, and the rules felt a bit more gamey than Shadows of Brimstone, but not so much as Zombicide Invader. It never came close to unseating SOB as our game, but the minis and terrain pieces are quite nice and useful for other games.
We found Star Saga to be about the same as all Mantic product outside KOW: initially slick looking core rules, once you put models on the table it's obvious there was no playtesting refinement done and you keep getting stuck on bad edge cases that should have been caught.
Eilif wrote: I'd be interested in hearing both of your observations on the previous edition of Dungeon Saga.
A couple years ago I considered it and Heroquest. Went with Heroquest and am happy with it as a fun light dungeon crawler. But as is suggested, it is not really an RPG.
The original Dungeon Saga kickstarter was pushed as a modern Heroquest with the base game, and an advanced game book to add solo/coop rules and a WHQ style bestiary to expand the available baddies to include your Kings of War army miniatures in order to open the game up to more of a modern Warhammer Quest 95. There were all sorts of add-on packs and stretch goals to add KoW minis and rules to that book.
Then, as was the style at the time, Mantic shipped the project off to Jake Thornton's gaming company, Quirkworthy, to turn all that into a reality. I followed his blogs there, and it was very clear that he wasn't interested in anything other than Heroquest style 1 vs. many gaming. He even outright stated that he didn't like Warhammer Quest, because he felt like that style of game was better covered by full roleplay games. He seemed to be utter fixated on the fact that the WHQ bestiary, level advancement, and town/travel rules were in a book titled "Roleplay Book" and seemed to think that meant it was trying to be an RPG.
So, we got what was very, very common with Mantic games of the era: a Jake Thornton beta ruleset shipped as a first edition. (Deadzone and Dreadball went through similar, with a first edition that was just good enough to get people playing, so Mantic eventually crowd-funded a second edition refined by in-house writers. The advanced game book became the Adventurer's Companion, which shipped to backers so laden with typos and errors they had to print and ship a corrected copy. And even then, it was clear that the character creation, campaign levelling, bestiary, and solo/coop AI rules were all last minute cludge jobs, banged out and untested by a disinterested designer. The bestiary was so abbreviated, it just barely covered the contents of the add-on packs from the KS campaign, nevermind the full KoW range.
The PVC minis produced for the game were extra soft and bendy, some with terrible mold lines, to boot.
I backed heavily for a modern WHQ, and that is NOT what I got. I did get some decent dungeon tiles and cheap KoW minis, but the rules were a "read once then banish to a box in the back of the closet" mess, though. I was severely unhappy with what was delivered vs. what was promised, in a way no other Mantic KS has disappointed me before or since. I watched the video above, and once again the solo/coop rules are going to be an add-on (a stretch goal, even, this time), and that tells me that this Dungeon Saga is just as dead to me as the first.
It's weird that in many ways we're in the golden age of dungeon crawlers, but none of them really hit the sweet spot.
I guess gloomhaven just sucks so much air out of the room. it seems great, only it's not a minis game, and anything that's better on an app is probably overly complicated.
I'm hopeful for a clean combat mechanic, the dungeon saga one was way too slow and fiddly, star saga improved upon it a lot.
No custom dice it seems, so hopefully the combat resolution has been reworked to something much simpler.
Ideally combat should be resolved quickly, with the difficulty determined mainly by player choice and tactics (engage hordes through doorways, choose a better path to avoid a tough enemy after rescuing a prisoner who gives hints about what lies ahead etc.).
Light RPG elements are essential to the experience, hidden doors, narrative hooks, different routes through the dungeon etc.
Setup and teardown time is something they have addressed, which is really good.
Eilif wrote: I'd be interested in hearing both of your observations on the previous edition of Dungeon Saga.
Around the time that the original KS launched, I realised that I didn't have a fantasy dungeon crawler and was looking at eBay copies of HQ. This probably led me towards HQ25...
Anyway, DS then popped up. Good old fantasy dungeon crawler: barbarians, elves, undead etc. None of this half-dragon, half-mermaid crystalmancer guff for a character.
The KS fulfilled that, but did suffer from mission creep. It ended up more gameplay options as the campaign went on and it's those options that ended up half-baked and the game's reputation suffered for it. The main game experience is great, narrative driven dungeon bash.
It's a fairly tactical romp through dungeons that includes the things that you'd expect in a game like this, but not quite:
- Progression and "levelling up" happens, but it's out of your hands - your characters get better, but in a way that's determined by the adventure.
- Looting happens, but it's occasional and again, determined by the adventure. Most adventures are on a timer, so you couldn't afford to be mucking around doing that stuff anyway.
Expanded rules are there to change those things, but I've never touched them because they are a bit clunky/bolted-on/unbalanced.
What I got out of it was a pretty tense, fairly vanilla setting (this is not a bad thing!) dungeon romp where I got to bash down doors, smash skeletons into bonemeal, find the Enchanted Gem of Maguffinland and get the you-know-what out of Dodge.
If Mantic can do a slightly more refined version of it, I'm going to be happy.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I’ve played Star Saga, which I assume is similar to Dungeon Saga. It was fine. I had fun playing it. The cardboard tiles were distractingly flimsy, and the rules felt a bit more gamey than Shadows of Brimstone, but not so much as Zombicide Invader. It never came close to unseating SOB as our game, but the minis and terrain pieces are quite nice and useful for other games.
Thanks for that. Looks like a good enough product, but I'm glad I went with Heroquest. A new DSaga is exciting, but I've already got a more advanced dungon crawler in the form of Imperial Assault which I've only played once but is of more interest to me than any other Dungeon Crawler. Realistically, DSaga would probably just join Ravenloft and Mice and Mystics as another unplayed game on the shelf.
from my experience you see what Mantic learned from DS and made better und Star Saga
though not everything bad came along with DS as I only know the translated version (which I guess already had some corrections)
so if Ronnie say they learned something and improved on that rather than re-printing the original, no reason not believing them
still does not mean the game is for me, as this will really depend on 2 things, if they manage to get a translation done, and if it is really as kid friendly and fast playing as Ronnie promises
History of previous Mantic Games kickstarters should teach people now not to believe Ronnie about what he says. He says whatever makes people bring their wallet out - so of course he will say they "learned about the past". Doesn't mean they won't repeat it.
I'd say the safest way here is wait for retail. You will find the product in stores, maybe not all of the "gimmick / exclusive" options but you don't need them to enjoy a game. Especially if it's a game you'll play once then put back on the shelf to take the dust for a while.
Which is what happened sadly to a lot of people with Dungeon Saga, Star Saga, Leagues of Infamy...
Main reason to me of this kickstarter (other than the usual Mantic cash grab from their fanboyz with their artificial hype) is not really about making the best Dungeon Saga game, but just a way to release new miniatures for Kings of War by disguising it with a "Dungeon Saga" name, so that they can milk the faithful Dungeon Saga community. It's pretty clear they won't give it the same attention than they do about their main games.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Polonius wrote: It's weird that in many ways we're in the golden age of dungeon crawlers, but none of them really hit the sweet spot.
I guess gloomhaven just sucks so much air out of the room. it seems great, only it's not a minis game, and anything that's better on an app is probably overly complicated.
There are actually more dungeon crawler systems that are very close to RPGs, they're just more obscure and not known.Most of them come as just rulebooks and advice their players to use material from other companies to make the dungeon tiles / monsters / heroes.
I couldn't put it better than Psychopomp, so I won't even try.
Dungeon Saga was the nail in the Mantic coffin for me. It was awful and unsalvageable. I still play Deadzone 3rd edition, and think it's just about the best tabletop wargame out there, but I will not back one of their games on KS again. If it's really good, maybe I'll pick up a copy at retail. Or maybe wait until the third edition...!
Thanks to @chillreaper and @psychpomp for your insights. Much appreciated.
Sounds like more confirmation that Heroquest was the right choice for me. Though if HQ hadn't been rereleased, it sounds like it might have been a fair substitute.
I went in on the original Deadzone and the Warpath Kickstarters. Neither game made me want to play, but both at least delivered figures I hope to someday paint.
At this point, I think a new edition of KoW is the only ruleset from Mantic that I'd purchase via KS sight unseen, though to my mind, the current edition doesn't really need an update. Mantic has delivered 3.5 KOW editions in a row that have scratched the same itch to my satisfaction without major changes or snafus.
Polonius wrote: It's weird that in many ways we're in the golden age of dungeon crawlers, but none of them really hit the sweet spot.
I guess gloomhaven just sucks so much air out of the room. it seems great, only it's not a minis game, and anything that's better on an app is probably overly complicated.
There are actually more dungeon crawler systems that are very close to RPGs, they're just more obscure and not known.Most of them come as just rulebooks and advice their players to use material from other companies to make the dungeon tiles / monsters / heroes.
Rangers of Shadowdeep is probably the most satisfying solo play experience I've ever had.
Eilif wrote: Thanks to @chillreaper and @psychpomp for your insights. Much appreciated.
Sounds like more confirmation that Heroquest was the right choice for me. Though if HQ hadn't been rereleased, it sounds like it might have been a fair substitute.
I went in on the original Deadzone and the Warpath Kickstarters. Neither game made me want to play, but both at least delivered figures I hope to someday paint.
At this point, I think a new edition of KoW is the only ruleset from Mantic that I'd purchase via KS sight unseen, though to my mind, the current edition doesn't really need an update. Mantic has delivered 3.5 KOW editions in a row that have scratched the same itch to my satisfaction without major changes or snafus.
Situation now is clearly not the same as when the original Dungeon Saga was released. DS has always been about nostalgia from old Warhammer Heroquest / Heroquest / Advanced Heroquest, but as always Mantic Games doesn't think much ahead with their "side games". Like others said on this thread, thorough playtesting was never their focus.
What is mostly annoying here is that Mantic Games is doing that new edition through a Kickstarter again ...and most people who are interested by Dungeon Saga and saw what happened before do know that Mantic doesn't do that for the game itself or because "they are a small company". They do it because it's their business model and they know they will get a ton of cash for something that won't be released before a good time.
It's a bit like the CMON of the poors...Mantic has always been cheap version of other big names on the miniature market and they don't seem to intend to be anything else.
Rangers of Shadowdeep is probably the most satisfying solo play experience I've ever had.
Good game, yes. Though I recently discovered 5 Leagues from the Borderlands and fell in love with their campaign system. Game designed as solo as well, with heavy focus on story telling. Both are mainly rulebooks, even if some miniatures were designed for Rangers of Shadowdeep.
Low investment too, even in comparison to Mantic "cheap" Games.
Eilif wrote: Thanks to @chillreaper and @psychpomp for your insights. Much appreciated.
Sounds like more confirmation that Heroquest was the right choice for me. Though if HQ hadn't been rereleased, it sounds like it might have been a fair substitute.
I went in on the original Deadzone and the Warpath Kickstarters. Neither game made me want to play, but both at least delivered figures I hope to someday paint.
At this point, I think a new edition of KoW is the only ruleset from Mantic that I'd purchase via KS sight unseen, though to my mind, the current edition doesn't really need an update. Mantic has delivered 3.5 KOW editions in a row that have scratched the same itch to my satisfaction without major changes or snafus.
Situation now is clearly not the same as when the original Dungeon Saga was released. DS has always been about nostalgia from old Warhammer Heroquest / Heroquest / Advanced Heroquest, but as always Mantic Games doesn't think much ahead with their "side games". Like others said on this thread, thorough playtesting was never their focus.
What is mostly annoying here is that Mantic Games is doing that new edition through a Kickstarter again ...and most people who are interested by Dungeon Saga and saw what happened before do know that Mantic doesn't do that for the game itself or because "they are a small company". They do it because it's their business model and they know they will get a ton of cash for something that won't be released before a good time.
Just to play devil's advocate a bit here. Are you saying that Mantic's business model is to release everything through Kickstarter? Seems a tiny bit reductionist.
Just to play devil's advocate a bit here. Are you saying that Mantic's business model is to release everything through Kickstarter? Seems a tiny bit reductionist.
No need to play devil's advocate. It's a Mantic thread. Sarouan will be here, doing his best to discredit Mantic.
Show us on the toy soldier where Mantic hurt you Sarouan.
In my opinion... I picked up someone's complete Dungeon Saga 1 kickstarter cheaply. I've played it a few times when only some of my Pathfinder group are available and we don't want to move the campaign on. We've enjoyed it, but I'm not desperate for v2 as we still have 2 or so expansions of v1 to play through.
Personally, I'm going to go with Battle Systems' Core Space fantasy. Mantic let me down with Vanguard as it seemed ditched before it got to the faction I really wanted.
KoW is however a fantastic game, and I'm happy with v3(.5).
I had high hopes for Dungeon Saga that were dashed on delivery for the very reasons stated by others here.
I've backed other Mantic projects and they've all fallen short. I don't appreciate a "good enough" mentality from creators (I don't accept it in myself) so it's annoying to no end to hear Ronnie shill the latest product to sell it but disappear when a substandard one arrives without even coming close to his hype. Frankly, I just don't trust Mantic to deliver anything but mediocre and frustration and I work too hard for my money to spend it on that.
As another mentioned, I'll be supporting Battle System's Maladum (fantasy Core Space).
Just to play devil's advocate a bit here. Are you saying that Mantic's business model is to release everything through Kickstarter? Seems a tiny bit reductionist.
I never said everything. Releasing their side games through Kickstarter is definitively part of their business model now. They don't need to use Kickstarter, but they know they can get a ton of cash more easily that way. Their marketing machine is running pretty smoothly in that field with their Ronnie "Hype Time !" artificial interventions.
A bit similar to CMON with their "you-can't-miss-that-awesome-deal", but cheaper version of that.
Just to play devil's advocate a bit here. Are you saying that Mantic's business model is to release everything through Kickstarter? Seems a tiny bit reductionist.
No need to play devil's advocate. It's a Mantic thread. Sarouan will be here, doing his best to discredit Mantic.
Show us on the toy soldier where Mantic hurt you Sarouan.
In my opinion... I picked up someone's complete Dungeon Saga 1 kickstarter cheaply. I've played it a few times when only some of my Pathfinder group are available and we don't want to move the campaign on. We've enjoyed it, but I'm not desperate for v2 as we still have 2 or so expansions of v1 to play through.
Personally, I'm going to go with Battle Systems' Core Space fantasy. Mantic let me down with Vanguard as it seemed ditched before it got to the faction I really wanted.
KoW is however a fantastic game, and I'm happy with v3(.5).
You don't need to do personnal attacks when you are in the same mind here.
I'm simply here to make newbies know what is Mantic Games past and not to believe what Ronnie says when he's marketing their new shiny project (whose support will be dropped as soon as the Kickstarter ends).
Saying company X doesn't "need to use Kickstarter" is weird because we've established at this point it's just a good way to launch risky-ish products, which board games are. You're getting loads of exposure and advocacy from your customers sharing it around and buying in to the stretch goal narrative, you get FOMO, it just makes sense. Doesn't mean I like it but "they don't need to use it" is like saying "they should deliberately hamstring themselves". It belies the personal nature of the criticism.
Just to play devil's advocate a bit here. Are you saying that Mantic's business model is to release everything through Kickstarter? Seems a tiny bit reductionist.
I never said everything. Releasing their side games through Kickstarter is definitively part of their business model now. They don't need to use Kickstarter, but they know they can get a ton of cash more easily that way. Their marketing machine is running pretty smoothly in that field with their Ronnie "Hype Time !" artificial interventions.
A bit similar to CMON with their "you-can't-miss-that-awesome-deal", but cheaper version of that.
Ah, I'm sure you can understand my pedantry here. Because CMON is exclusively KS, whereas Mantic isn't. It's a really misleading and reductionist comparison to pull. Or that while Mantic has dropped support for some games done through KS, they also have supported games past the KS launch, too. Missed that bit out, I think. If you're out to share Mantic's past, perhaps be less misleading? Newbies could certainly read this and get a very biased view, which I'm sure you wouldn't want to happen.
even Mantic themselves said that they are doing the Boardgames via KS is not because they cannot afford it otherwise but because the target audience is there
there is no goo reason to not use it if you already know that the people buying your game will use that platform
I never did a KS except for Battletech, and there the main reason was to show that the game is still liked and worth be supported by the company
main reason to do the Dungeon Saga KS would be to secure a translated version
Sarouan wrote: I'm simply here to make newbies know what is Mantic Games past and not to believe what Ronnie says when he's marketing their new shiny project (whose support will be dropped as soon as the Kickstarter ends).
How very noble of you.
I hope you're on the threads of all the other manufacturers, warning the poor newbies how they're being lied to for their money.
I haven't seen you on the GW threads telling the newbies not to buy GW books/rules because a new edition will be released in a 3 year cycle invalidating everything - in a way, dropping support for the game they are investing in.
At this point, unless you are one of the biggest companies, not using kickstarter to fund minis heavy board games is usually a bad idea. OTOH, "kickstarter board games" is defiintily a very loaded term in a lot of circles.
I'm a mantic fan, and while some people are unfair or hyperbolic in their criticisms, it's hard to deny that they have some quality assurance problems. Mantic kickstarters are always a lot of stuff for the dollar, but it might not be exactly what you want.
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Gimgamgoo wrote: I haven't seen you on the GW threads telling the newbies not to buy GW books/rules because a new edition will be released in a 3 year cycle invalidating everything - in a way, dropping support for the game they are investing in.
I mean... come on man. You can't pull up a single GW thread without finding people pissing all over them.
Polonius wrote: Mantic kickstarters are always a lot of stuff for the dollar, but it might not be exactly what you want.
This is very accurate. I have minimal faith that a new game from Mantic will be great, but to be fair I feel the same about most games on KS. To say nothing of most such games very limited shelf life.
At least with Mantic you get a great deal on a pile of toys you can use in other games too.
I kind lost track around Hellboy box set, at the time there was talk about releasing the minis individually outside box but I dont remember seeing that. I really wanted the solo Hellboy figure on the box set but never seen it.
In therms of Mantic games/ box sets KS (outside their wargames ranges) I dont intend to get any because miniatures quality reports is a bit iffy.
I dont think Mantic will ever be interested in improving the quality there. Missed chance if you ask me.
I hope you're on the threads of all the other manufacturers, warning the poor newbies how they're being lied to for their money.
I haven't seen you on the GW threads telling the newbies not to buy GW books/rules because a new edition will be released in a 3 year cycle invalidating everything - in a way, dropping support for the game they are investing in.
Yeah, I removed that line since it was unnecessarily disrespectful.
Thing is, there is a big difference between buying a GW product and pledging for a Mantic Games kickstarter. In the first one, you know very well what you'll get in the end. I mean, it's a finished product, no surprise here. In the second...let's just say past history of MG is mixed at best about expectations from backers at that time and what they got in the end, shall we ? And Dungeon Saga left a bad taste in more than one mouth in particular.
So there's a bigger chance newbies feel like they were lied to in the second case than the first. That's also why I can't advise them enough to think about it twice and be very aware of what Mantic Games did in the past kickstarters before going on this one, because Ronnie said something "awesome" or promise "they learned about past mistakes".
They're words, not facts.
As for their "need" to go on KS "because audience is there"...that's BS. Dungeon Saga community is pretty much where it always was : on social medias following MG's releases, because they know where that's coming from. Sure, MG may want to attract new players from boardgames and such, but guess what ? They are on social medias too. You can advertise your finished product there, you don't need to go by Kickstarters. And Dungeon Saga, a risky move ? Dungeon Saga community was faithful enough to stay with MG all that time, even when they unveiled that silly idea of League of Infamy (there was big hope it was DS 2, but wasn't the case at all in the end). They know from long time they have a fanbase ready to back them up.
No, the reason they do a kickstarter is because they can gather a big amount of money and nothing else. And they certainly don't care for players by doing that.
No one has mentioned it, and I've had some negative experience with Mantic in the past, but the Hellboy board game is Very Good. The minis are good, the scenarios are good, it plays well, and I think it's a very good dungeon crawler that gets overlooked. There's some issues, and the FAQ is a little longer than I'd like (but largely edge case scenarios), but I think it's a very good game that has me excited to look at the new Dungeon Saga KS.
Billicus wrote: Sorry, kickstarter being a smart place to launch a board game isn't BS, it's common sense. Nobody agrees with you on that one.
Yeah, if you want to gather a lot of money in a few days, it's indeed a good place for that. But argueing you "need" to do that for you board game to sell / reach the audience it is targeted at ? That is what is BS and what I'm calling.
If you intend to release your board game in retail, you don't need to use kickstarter. You can work on it behind the scenes and advertise it once it's ready. That is the truth.
TheHammer wrote: No one has mentioned it, and I've had some negative experience with Mantic in the past, but the Hellboy board game is Very Good. The minis are good, the scenarios are good, it plays well, and I think it's a very good dungeon crawler that gets overlooked. There's some issues, and the FAQ is a little longer than I'd like (but largely edge case scenarios), but I think it's a very good game that has me excited to look at the new Dungeon Saga KS.
Yes, the team they said will work on it will certainly make a good board game out of that new DS. The issue is the intention and direction behind. Looking at the tiles on the previews, though, all flat carboard with set rooms (and small ones at that...) including doors and furniture...that indeed is screaming "boardgame", and not really "good dungeon crawler with RPG elements". Something you'll play once and put back on the shelves to never use again.
If you intend to release your board game in retail, you don't need to use kickstarter. You can work on it behind the scenes and advertise it once it's ready. That is the truth.
Also the truth is that only megacorporations still do that and even freakin Hasbro does crowdfunding. Kickstarter is the default for this industry now, stop using it as some argument that Mantic is exceptionally nefarious because it uses KS.
If you intend to release your board game in retail, you don't need to use kickstarter. You can work on it behind the scenes and advertise it once it's ready. That is the truth.
Also the truth is that only megacorporations still do that and even freakin Hasbro does crowdfunding. Kickstarter is the default for this industry now, stop using it as some argument that Mantic is exceptionally nefarious because it uses KS.
Never said they're "exceptionnally nefarious". But I just think that contrary to the common belief by their fanboyz, they're actually no better than any megacorporation on that matter - since they do use the same tricks as them in the end. It's also good to notice that GW doesn't use kickstarters at all and they do release boardgames as well. So there's that.
Mantic Games is just here to do business like any other on the market, big or small, and they don't really care that much for players if they use Kickstarter for Dungeon Saga - only for the money it will bring them. That's all what I'm saying.
If you intend to release your board game in retail, you don't need to use kickstarter. You can work on it behind the scenes and advertise it once it's ready. That is the truth.
Unless of course the amount of money to produce the items is far too expensive for a small company and they need the money upfront to pay for the manufacture.
Yes, the team they said will work on it will certainly make a good board game out of that new DS. The issue is the intention and direction behind. Looking at the tiles on the previews, though, all flat carboard with set rooms (and small ones at that...) including doors and furniture...that indeed is screaming "boardgame", and not really "good dungeon crawler with RPG elements". Something you'll play once and put back on the shelves to never use again.
Other than (rules obviously), colour game tiles, hero/enemy minis, maybe some plastic furniture and doors. Can I ask what else is actually needed to make a "good dungeon crawler with RPG elements" rather than a "boardgame"? Mantic have made furniture with all the terrain crates, doors etc - all in plastic already.
If you intend to release your board game in retail, you don't need to use kickstarter. You can work on it behind the scenes and advertise it once it's ready. That is the truth.
Unless of course the amount of money to produce the items is far too expensive for a small company and they need the money upfront to pay for the manufacture.
Sure, it's great for individuals and such who don't have any cash to invest prior. Here, we're talking about an existing franchise, with an existing fanbase, and they clearly have already made a lot of work on it (otherwise, you wouldn't see what they have done so far on the previews, it's already quite advanced).
Mantic Games is not a "small company" as people think they are - as if, they don't make much money. They were at the beginning, but not anymore now. And they are now experienced with how Kickstarters work, and how they can gather money quickly by building a clever marketing campaign. That they totally do right so far. It doesn't cost no money as well, they do clearly invest in that field. Let's not pretend they don't have money "upfront" to "pay for the manufacture".
Other than (rules obviously), colour game tiles, hero/enemy minis, maybe some plastic furniture and doors. Can I ask what else is actually needed to make a "good dungeon crawler with RPG elements" rather than a "boardgame"? Mantic have made furniture with all the terrain crates, doors etc - all in plastic already.
And it's a separate product, so it's clearly not intended to be sold in the new DS box - otherwise they would have used it on the preview pictures. Besides, given the limited space in the rooms, I'm not sure it's really suited to work together (their plastic furniture pieces take a bit of space, after all).
What else is actually needed ? Just look at how Advanced Heroquest works, for example : making your own characters, having town events, having quests linked together and true experience / loot system that keeps going on from an adventure to another...So far, that's apparently not where this version of DS is going. It's more similar to bandai Heroquest with quick play in mind than anything else. Fine and all, but better be sure what this game is about rather than trying to sell it as what it isn't. Which is why reviews of product in retail exist, and why it doesn't really work when it's on Kickstarter labelled as a "WIP" (and if everything is already done and set in stone...then it's even more a scandal that they make a Kickstarter for that instead to put it to retail directly :( ).
Kickstarter is great for any creative industry manufacturer, the site itself acts as a hugely effective marketing platform, often kickstarter itself provides 75% of the backers on a project.
Having run a kickstarter myself, It's really a no-brainer as long as you're able to deliver and don't run on ridiculous low margins that sink the project.
I mean.. they would need to either show near-finished rules. Preferably written by someone like James Hewitt along with a series of completed renders with examples printed and shown alongside various other models so we can see actual scale and proportions along with some specifics of the material since most of my DS models came bent with a fair few that were also broken...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Average of sub 30 employees in the last year, balance sheet of about £1million after liabilities etc. All this info is freely available. They're pretty much exactly the kind of enterprise that *should* be using Kickstarter
Ronny has been totally up front on the Kickstarter issues. And it's not like SOME Monty Haul projects that make over 3 million dollars, then disappear.
Mantic's games from KS haven't exactly been the type for large scale production runs, nor is Mantic a company that should NOT be using KS for their specialized games runs.
As much as you want to call it, they are the exact company, with Small Specialized projects to be be counted on to be completed, a run here and there to garner interest, and also subcontractor games, such as the Walking Dead and Hellboy games that incurred a licensing cost in addition to molds and machining for the production.
In the past, I'd taken them to task on a couple of issues, but in the end their personal attention to the issues was the exact reason why they deserve my business.
Honestly though, does the principle of using Kickstarter or not even matter? From my perspective what matters is how the funding is used to give quality to the final product. And in Mantic's case it perpetually seems like the final product will be mediocre whether it gets a thousand in funding or a million. A lot of people know what to expect and accept that, a lot of other people have a problem with it. And neither group is wrong.
I was always pretty happy with what I got for the price, but also frustrated because a lot of the time the product was tantalizingly close to being great but they just didn't put in the little extra effort. It's like Mantic are always sending first drafts directly to print.
I really don’t see how Mantic is apparently raki in tons of money like some here say.
The crazy boxes this time around have some retail product , and a mix of existing and old miniatures. At £25 then Mantic either has very very low production costs or they are taking a loss to generate cash flow. As Ronnie himself says in the video , many of the individual items retail at £25 for just one (albeit in packaging and with bases). The new app has a pricing model suggesting they are trying to tap into some cash from dedicated users. They’ve changed the minimum spend for free shipping when buying direct , which by itself is not unique but given they are selling it direct then you’d expect they have a better margin selling direct with free shipping on most items than selling to retail who then make their own margin.
Whilst Kickstarter is a good tool for business , it’s incredibly bad for customers who are reduced to backers with little rights - witness the collapse of the Jurassic World Kickstarter despite Exod claiming late last year the stock was sitting in warehouses , and which used covid to generate a second round of product sales with both backers and retailers to “support retailers”.
It’s hard to see what this new dungeon saga offers over the original and now that there is a new Heroquest I don’t see paying a year in advance for a game with cardboard token furniture being super appealing.
TheHammer wrote: No one has mentioned it, and I've had some negative experience with Mantic in the past, but the Hellboy board game is Very Good. The minis are good, the scenarios are good, it plays well, and I think it's a very good dungeon crawler that gets overlooked. There's some issues, and the FAQ is a little longer than I'd like (but largely edge case scenarios), but I think it's a very good game that has me excited to look at the new Dungeon Saga KS.
It's also a big part of why I'd need to see that DS was being designed by someone like James Hewitt. This is a great interview covering a lot of his work for Mantic, GW and some others. (stick it on in the background while you do some painting)
https://youtu.be/GAsX9W2GDTY
NinthMusketeer wrote: Honestly though, does the principle of using Kickstarter or not even matter? From my perspective what matters is how the funding is used to give quality to the final product. And in Mantic's case it perpetually seems like the final product will be mediocre whether it gets a thousand in funding or a million. A lot of people know what to expect and accept that, a lot of other people have a problem with it. And neither group is wrong.
Indeed. But that does apply only to people who already know MG and dealt with them before.
Newbies coming with this project first don't know what to really expect from MG. That's the danger of KS and all the artificial hype built from the marketing team around it (not even talking about fanboyz).
Of course, you can always tell them "KS is always a risk, you should come prepared", but fanboyz do have a tendancy to minimize that part when they advertise the project "because they want MG to succeed".
That's what I despise in this project. At least, when the product is in retail, you can have direct reviews on its content. It's not like you give money in advance and received bendy miniatures and thin cardboard with Bandai Heroquest rules as a result.
And the reason why MG keeps releasing mediocre products is that they don't have enough negative backlash about them doing so. It works and they keep selling it, so why should they change and go for real quality for the gamers instead ?
I'd say an advantage of Kickstarter is that you can click through to a creator's other projects, read the comments on them, read all the updates over the course of the project and see how long it took to deliver etc - there's plenty there for consumers to look at and judge whether they want to back the project at this point, and plenty of coverage of DS 1.0, League of Infamy etc on board games media. The idea "newbies don't know what to expect from MG" is crap, the info is all there to be had.
Billicus wrote: I'd say an advantage of Kickstarter is that you can click through to a creator's other projects, read the comments on them, read all the updates over the course of the project and see how long it took to deliver etc - there's plenty there for consumers to look at and judge whether they want to back the project at this point, and plenty of coverage of DS 1.0, League of Infamy etc on board games media. The idea "newbies don't know what to expect from MG" is crap, the info is all there to be had.
"It's their fault for not getting the info themselves". That's the real crap.
Like TwilightSparkles said, Kickstarter is really bad for consumers : you have basically no right and you're totally at the mercy of the creator's good will to get something when something goes wrong. There are plenty of examples of "projects that was sure to be successful" and were going down into flames in a spectacular manner / turned out to be scam. The downfall of Rackam "new generation" and Spartan Games, or the infamous Super Dungeon Explore debacle can be consulted on their theads for history on this forum. Don't even talk about "going to Justice" to get your money back - we're talking about a MG project, here. If people had money to spend in lawyers in a long legal battle, they wouldn't back MG and their "cheap products", they would directly buy GW or FW boxes.
KS is a leap of faith. It's not like you pre-order a product ready to sail for retail. You're not sure what you'll get in the end...if you get anything at all. And it's not the job nor the interest of other backers to tell you the truth about it - mostly because backers tend to want the project to succeed, and the only good way for that is to attract more backers - certainly not pushing them away with negative comments.
Sure, a consumer can look the hundred of comments in previous KS before pledging, and check what comes from a blind fanboy and what is a real statement - or check the past history of what was said on social media and forums. But the thing is, the clock is ticking on a KS before the campaign ends and you don't especially have time to do an investigator's job. So you tend to ask on the KS's current project. Of course, the creator will always be reassuring and the other backers...well, like I said, you can't really rely on them.
Newbies that are attracted on the project usually do so because they saw an ad about it - mostly from other backers. And those who do are certainly not those who were disappointed by the 1st KS. It's already biased at the start.
But of course, people who want MG to succeed no matter the cost don't see the issue with this. They're blinded by their own interests. Which is why they can't be trusted, but newbies don't know that. And you dare to blame them for their ignorance ? Shame on you, I say.
Who's talking about fault? Who's talking about blame? I didn't blame anyone for anything, I'm arguing with the point you made - that Kickstarter obfuscates product details from consumers making the consumer take the risks - with a logical counter - Kickstarter makes finding info about other projects by that creator pretty easy, reducing the risk to the consumer. But you didn't like that so rather than argue you rang the shame bell. Cool, I'm done.
Billicus wrote: Who's talking about fault? Who's talking about blame? I didn't blame anyone for anything, I'm arguing with the point you made - that Kickstarter obfuscates product details from consumers making the consumer take the risks - with a logical counter - Kickstarter makes finding info about other projects by that creator pretty easy, reducing the risk to the consumer. But you didn't like that so rather than argue you rang the shame bell. Cool, I'm done.
You say "The idea "newbies don't know what to expect from MG" is crap, the info is all there to be had". You thus imply it's their fault if they don't know it because they didn't do the research. You can deny, sure, since you left ambivalence, but I'm pretty sure that's what you think here.
Looking at previous projects isn't telling by itself. To know what happened, you have to browse manually through comments and actualities. And there is no search option. It's a chore, I know it because I did it exactly that - and I had way too much time to waste on it. So yes, the info is there but NO it's not easy to find it, especially on big projects with thousand of comments. MG is not the biggest creator, but it's definitely not the smallest as well.
If you did try to do that, you would know that as well. But since you didn't and look at superficial tools on KS just to make the point "KS is fine", I'm calling you on this.
If people had money to spend in lawyers in a long legal battle, they wouldn't back MG and their "cheap products", they would directly buy GW or FW boxes.
What!? Why on earth would you think that?
I could afford lawyers but I have no intent on buying GW crap. I vastly prefer Mantic over GW.
Sarouan wrote: Like TwilightSparkles said, Kickstarter is really bad for consumers : you have basically no right and you're totally at the mercy of the creator's good will to get something when something goes wrong. There are plenty of examples of "projects that was sure to be successful" and were going down into flames in a spectacular manner / turned out to be scam. The downfall of Rackam "new generation" and Spartan Games, or the infamous Super Dungeon Explore debacle can be consulted on their theads for history on this forum. Don't even talk about "going to Justice" to get your money back - we're talking about a MG project, here. If people had money to spend in lawyers in a long legal battle, they wouldn't back MG and their "cheap products", they would directly buy GW or FW boxes.
so, a lot here. Kickstarter isn't bad for consumers, but it is risky for consumers. The reason it isn't bad is because it generates the front end sales that allow products that otherwise wouldn't exist to be made. If you are not comfortable with risk, than kickstarter is not for you, and that's fair.
KS is a leap of faith. It's not like you pre-order a product ready to sail for retail. You're not sure what you'll get in the end...if you get anything at all. And it's not the job nor the interest of other backers to tell you the truth about it - mostly because backers tend to want the project to succeed, and the only good way for that is to attract more backers - certainly not pushing them away with negative comments.
Sure, a consumer can look the hundred of comments in previous KS before pledging, and check what comes from a blind fanboy and what is a real statement - or check the past history of what was said on social media and forums. But the thing is, the clock is ticking on a KS before the campaign ends and you don't especially have time to do an investigator's job. So you tend to ask on the KS's current project. Of course, the creator will always be reassuring and the other backers...well, like I said, you can't really rely on them.
I dunno man. Mantic has shipped over a dozen kickstarters. You can quibble about the quality of the model or the rules for some of them, but they're pretty reliable.
And clock ticking? It takes like ten minutes to do some quick googling. I literally typed in "are mantic kickstarters worth it" and the fourth result down is a reddit thread about lack of fulfillment. googling "dungeon saga mantic review" brings up a bunch of tepid reviews.
Newbies that are attracted on the project usually do so because they saw an ad about it - mostly from other backers. And those who do are certainly not those who were disappointed by the 1st KS. It's already biased at the start.
But of course, people who want MG to succeed no matter the cost don't see the issue with this. They're blinded by their own interests. Which is why they can't be trusted, but newbies don't know that. And you dare to blame them for their ignorance ? Shame on you, I say.
We're not blaming them for their own ignorance, but I guess you've created this hypothetical world where a person pledges a ton of money on a mantic product, despite never hearing anything about mantic, and then is terribly disappointed with what they get. Which I just don't think is likely to happen?
the dirty secret behind kickstarter games is that a huge percentage (I'd guess 40-60%) are barely even played. I think people get those big boxes a year or more after they pledge, look through it, maybe build a few models or try the opening mission, and then pack it all back up. I've done that more than once. I'm the first person to say that Kickstarter is closer to penny stocks than blue chips. But you seem like a person with a weird vendetta against Mantic.
what I don't get is claiming that Mantic is already as expensive as GW while making worse rules than GW and have a bad model quality
yet at the same time, people go for Mantic because they cannot afford GW and/or want better rules
if someone likes Heroquest, go for it. No need to go with DS if you want to play Heroquest
Mantic started with substitute rules for a GW game, because they already had a similar main game and GW killed their version of it
This does not mean that all other games they make are based on a GW game and you get the very same game but for cheap
what you are looking for is OnePageRules, they make the models and games to be a 1:1 replacement
and "warning" newbies from a Mantic KS on Dakka is strange at best
and the main "warning" is the same as for all products on Kickstarter, there is a risk and the end-product might not be what you expect
same risk for all KS, same risk for all early access or pre-order computer games etc.
if you want to purchase without risk, wait for retail and reviews
this is nothing specific for Mantic, except that MG is one of those were the products see a retail release unlike some others that are KS exclusive
Sarouan wrote: If people had money to spend in lawyers in a long legal battle, they wouldn't back MG and their "cheap products", they would directly buy GW or FW boxes.
But of course, people who want MG to succeed no matter the cost don't see the issue with this. They're blinded by their own interests. Which is why they can't be trusted, but newbies don't know that. And you dare to blame them for their ignorance ? Shame on you, I say.
I buy GW rules/models.
I buy Mantic rules/models.
I find the Mantic rules far more enjoyable, playtested and have less errors than GW rules.
I find the GW models better, but I do like some Mantic models.
All I can gather from your posting is an irrational hatred of all things Mantic.
I just assume it's that you're so deeply entrenched in the GW bubble and have a fear of people leaving that bubble to play other things.
I bought into Mantic's KS Vanguard which I've played once, and bought sets of models after the kickstarter. Yeah, I feel like a fool for wasting my money. However, I haven't wasted half as much money on that as I have on 40k9 rules/codices which will also be shelf fodder. At least with a Mantic boardgame/crawler/skirmish I can play it a few years down the line with a group of friends/family. With the out of date GW printed stuff, it's just car boot fodder. Expensive GW books ought to have a 'use by' date on them which is generally 3 years or less. Is this something that 'newbies' need to be warned of?
Sarouan wrote: If people had money to spend in lawyers in a long legal battle, they wouldn't back MG and their "cheap products", they would directly buy GW or FW boxes.
But of course, people who want MG to succeed no matter the cost don't see the issue with this. They're blinded by their own interests. Which is why they can't be trusted, but newbies don't know that. And you dare to blame them for their ignorance ? Shame on you, I say.
I buy GW rules/models.
I buy Mantic rules/models.
I find the Mantic rules far more enjoyable, playtested and have less errors than GW rules.
I find the GW models better, but I do like some Mantic models.
All I can gather from your posting is an irrational hatred of all things Mantic.
I just assume it's that you're so deeply entrenched in the GW bubble and have a fear of people leaving that bubble to play other things.
I bought into Mantic's KS Vanguard which I've played once, and bought sets of models after the kickstarter. Yeah, I feel like a fool for wasting my money. However, I haven't wasted half as much money on that as I have on 40k9 rules/codices which will also be shelf fodder. At least with a Mantic boardgame/crawler/skirmish I can play it a few years down the line with a group of friends/family. With the out of date GW printed stuff, it's just car boot fodder. Expensive GW books ought to have a 'use by' date on them which is generally 3 years or less. Is this something that 'newbies' need to be warned of?
I cannot answer for Sauron, but from my own experience with Mantic.
Kickstarted KOW2.0, package lost in transit, they called me a thief/liar, but then it turned out to be a terrible computer glitch on their end and took time to manufacture more and send out the replacements. No apologies.
I like the KOW system, trying to get the group to play it, but we are firmly bought into ASOIAF, Blood Bowl, Arenarex and bunches of board games.
I've picked up lots of KOW models from the discount bin and I am happy I got them at those prices, but feel for the prices they ask for the miniatures I expect a lot more. Material wise, they kept changing their tune on what materials they were going to use and some materials were a downgrade. Also, talking about price, they decided to pull the Warlord Games stunt (And GW before that) and make it so I have to order from the US store, which means I cannot take advantage of the currency exchange rate, and the cost conversions between the US site and UK site are different. They went from a good deal to not as good of a deal, and when you are trying to recruit people to play their system instead of GW's, it needs to be a better deal. People still buy GW stuff because they know they can get a game in almost anywhere, to invest in a new system where you will have a hard time finding opponents is a cost that doesn't get factored in.
Rules wise, KOW is great, can's say anything about warpath as I never read the book all the way through and the models were a turn off.
Compared to GW, Mantic is a company that I WANT to support, but they keep finding ways to underachieve (changing material, writers and paths). They said they wanted to be the best Fantasy rank and file game, then they branched off into boardgames, maybe not the next day, but soon enough afterwards that it feels like they do not deliver on what you expected.
I think nearly all gamers (or hobbyists of any stripe, for that matter) have bought things that in retrospect they shouldn't have, or not gotten their money's worth, or whatever. Buying hobby stuff that doesn't get used the way we hoped is often the rule, not the expception. I remember when my local group was all getting into Flames of War, with a league starting in the fall. so I spent all summer buying and building my army, and by the time fall came, one guy moved away, another went back to jail (lol), and two of the guys that were going to play never bought anything. My army sat unused for a while, then sold for pennies on the dollar.
Should somebody have warned me that even active play groups can evaporate quickly? would I have listened?
Back in Warmachine MkII, i built a huge cygnar army, painted the whole thing up, and then MKIII hit, and again, the play group disappeared. I had thousands of dollars in paperweights.
Now, the counter is that I at least received the products I expected, but from my perspective it was still wasted time and money.
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Theophony wrote: Compared to GW, Mantic is a company that I WANT to support, but they keep finding ways to underachieve (changing material, writers and paths). They said they wanted to be the best Fantasy rank and file game, then they branched off into boardgames, maybe not the next day, but soon enough afterwards that it feels like they do not deliver on what you expected.
They've been around a long time despite not really having a hit game or model range. The obvious comparator is Warlord, who had big success with Bolt Action, and then kind of became the go to source for 28mm historicals. the most played Mantic game is probably KOW, which is a really good ranks and flanks game, but they're models still lag way behind what's available, not just from GW, but even from other smaller companies. The other big success is probably Deadzone, but Killteam's success is probably going to prevent it from ever blowing up.
I think the kickstarters and board games actually keep them in business. the Walking Dead game is well spoken of, but I've not met anybody who plays.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Expensive GW books ought to have a 'use by' date on them which is generally 3 years or less. Is this something that 'newbies' need to be warned of?
Yes, but they won't listen and will likely resent you for it if you do. Just like most of us did too way back in the day when our respective old timers tried.
3 years if you're lucky! These fancy Arks of Omen books are going to have a shelf life of between 3 and 6 months on average if there's a new edition this summer.
Billicus wrote: 3 years if you're lucky! These fancy Arks of Omen books are going to have a shelf life of between 3 and 6 months on average if there's a new edition this summer.
That in itself rests on a lot of unstated assumptions, 'Shelf life' being a loaded term, but we don't need to have that entire side-conservation about the GW police coming and taking your books etc. for the umpteenth time.
The rules content stops being current within that timeframe, that's all that's meant. It's valid criticism, if we're talking about "buyer beware" situations.
I think that enough people assign value to gaming books as being sources of rules that are currently played that it's safe to say that books whose rules rotate out are, in fact, obsolete.
You can have a galaxy brain take that you still own the paper and ink, so it's still good, but I don't think very many people will agree, and an even cursory look at eBay shows that the value of older books does drop (on ebay, psychic awakening books that sold for $50 sell for less than half of that.
Just to add that whatever digs might be made against Mantic, getting on them for using KS alot is not really valid. There are alot of items from companies of all sizes that just aren't going to be viable without crowd funding. Whether it's for one-off products (or functionally one-offs) or just to try and get enough of a toehold to support future retail releases. Crowdfunding is just the way the gaming world is now.
GW has the market share and fanbase to skip it but even Hasbro is doing crowd funding and thank heavens they are because I like my new Heroquest.
As for what Mantic gets you, if you go in on a Mantic KS you you can expect:
-At least mid-quality models, perhaps some better
-An above average amount of figures-per-dollar.
-Playable rules of varying quality.
-A near certainty the KS will ship.
That's the equation. Buy or don't, but the above list is one that alot of folks are going to be satisfied with even if they don't get GW quality models or the next hot game.
One can validly feel disappointed about some past Mantic KS's. However, Mantic's KS record is very well established now so that if someone buys in today on a Mantic KS and is disappointed with less than perfect models or rules, they almost have to blame themselves.
details on the models would not mean much as those are 3D printed masters and not production models anyway
Yeah, and they still incite people to back this KS in their videos. Understandable from their point of view, but I have a bad feeling of déjà vu here.
But hey, roll a die : 1-3 you'll receive bad material / broken miniatures, 4-6 it will be average miniatures that'll do the job. Is it worth the wait and paying 1+ year in advance for something you may not feel playing when you'll receive it (if you'll receive it at all) ? People decide on their own.
Yes, you're still just describing Kickstarter. Nothing about Mantic in particular warrants being singled out like this, so it just looks like you're being motivated by a personal vendetta.
And I hate to reveal how the sausage is made but basically every miniature manufacturer that isn't showing you 3D renders *is* showing you painted masters that are much sharper than the production models will be.
Tabletop_Magpie wrote: I think you have déjà vu because you spend so much time in here repeating how Kick Starter works, over and over, making it seem like Mantic have somehow found a loophole to extract money directly form unaware 'noobs' wallets
Nope, it's just like first Dungeon Saga.
Not all Kickstarter projects just show renders or master models, mind you. Some have production models already. That's not the case here. When you don't see final details and someone tells you "details don't matter here, it's not the final product" - it doesn't have to be a satisfying answer when your money is involved.
Miniatures are still a big part of the project (the rest being poor quality cardboard, there's no real value in it). It's important to know what is the quality of the final material that will be sold.
You may dismiss / hate me for all the negative I say here, because I'm not sharing the hype on it, but it's still a question backers have a right to have answered.
Yeah, and they still incite people to back this KS in their videos. Understandable from their point of view, but I have a bad feeling of déjà vu here.
But hey, roll a die : 1-3 you'll receive bad material / broken miniatures, 4-6 it will be average miniatures that'll do the job. Is it worth the wait and paying 1+ year in advance for something you may not feel playing when you'll receive it (if you'll receive it at all) ? People decide on their own.
"Incite" people to back the KS, in a KS specific demo to actually advertise that product? How dare they. lol
"bad material". I agree that sometimes the material is a bit duff, but you usually are told what the material is upfront.
"broken miniatures"? In my experience, Mantic have a customer service second to none and would replace it in an instant.
"average miniatures that'll do the job"? Even in (gasp) PVC? You know, like most boardgames out there?
People that are KSing a boardgame dungeon crawler know what to expect. I'm not sure you do, other than spout your 'I hate Mantic rhetoric'
I don't put the miniatures quality of all boardgames on the same level. But thats just me.
Im quite aware how minis are produced and what is showed most of the times, renders, prints, resins etc
Thing is at this point in time theres not much revealed here.
Fair enough if some of you dont care about the minis but its, for me, kind of a make it or break it for these kind of products.
Too much talk and not much seen so yeah missed chance if the intention was to hype this KS.
People that are KSing a boardgame dungeon crawler know what to expect.
People who backed previous boardgame dungeon crawlers on KS...maybe they know what to expect. And then that's not even a given, depends if they know Mantic Games or not as well. Not all Dungeon Crawlers are necessarily cheap material, you know.
Not even talking about people who back something on KS the first time. There's always a first for someone at some point.
You may not care about them and dismiss any critic / question that seem still fair to me, but you won't make these questions / critics disappear in the void anyway. Especially when they are fair.
I don't care for the models at all
For a game I need something that gets the job done, no need to add in something super detailed and expensive were a cardboard token would have done the same
So in this case the gameplay preview is much more important for me than anything about the models
For preview models being different, even GW only shows resin masters in advance and the model picture on the box is not made from the sprue inside. This is standard as no one wants to have his models on stock to wait for the cardboard to be done to ship it.
For the KS itself, saying they need money for tooling to produce the models would be a lie if they use production models for the previews.
Yet they cannot use 3D prints for a gameplay review either because this means they lie about the not yet produced models
kodos wrote: I don't care for the models at all
For a game I need something that gets the job done, no need to add in something super detailed and expensive were a cardboard token would have done the same
So in this case the gameplay preview is much more important for me than anything about the models
For preview models being different, even GW only shows resin masters in advance and the model picture on the box is not made from the sprue inside. This is standard as no one wants to have his models on stock to wait for the cardboard to be done to ship it.
For the KS itself, saying they need money for tooling to produce the models would be a lie if they use production models for the previews.
Yet they cannot use 3D prints for a gameplay review either because this means they lie about the not yet produced models
Regarding the underlined part... Most KS that have minis tend to show minis in detail, doesn't need to be final production ones( would be important for them to say what material they will end up using and at least have some examples of past projects) but the nature of KS is that they are WIP so WIP materials or concepts on renders or prints or concept art and so on and on is NOT a lie man. It's what KS meant to be.
BTW some KS do have production models in small runs as test pieces and still need the KS money to produce more or amend those runs...
Kind of an odd take to just call that "lies".
But hey, roll a die : 1-3 you'll receive bad material / broken miniatures, 4-6 it will be average miniatures that'll do the job. Is it worth the wait and paying 1+ year in advance for something you may not feel playing when you'll receive it (if you'll receive it at all) ? People decide on their own.
I'm only ever after average mini's that do the job. I'm not a mini collector/painter, I'm a gamer. I want at least semi decent games, the minis are secondary.
GW may produce nice, in their own right, minis; but they are no use to me - they are the almost all the wrong scale for use in other games, and too expensive for what they are - glorified game markers. I'll take 'average' cheap mantic minis over GW. GW produce minis that are of little use to me for too much money, and the games the produce are largely junk. Mantic produce playable and enjoyable games and reasonable minis, what else would I want?
Why wouldn't I receive it? I have no reason to suspect Mantic are going to screw me over. Could it happen, yes, but how likely - probably not much.
The following part is only really relevant to a select few people, but I happen to live in easy driving distance of Mantic in Nottingham, if they send me broken mini's I will just drive down and they will go and find some non-broken ones from the warehouse whilst I wait in the attached shop. They are a pretty decent bunch for stuff like that.
For what it is worth, I'm not on this KS - I'm not really into dungeon type games, I play RPGs for that. But I would hop on any Mantic KS that interested me subject wise - I am all in on the terrain one they did not long ago.
Regarding the underlined part... Most KS that have minis tend to show minis in detail, doesn't need to be final production ones( would be important for them to say what material they will end up using and at least have some examples of past projects) but the nature of KS is that they are WIP so WIP materials or concepts on renders or prints or concept art and so on and on is NOT a lie man. It's what KS meant to be.
BTW some KS do have production models in small runs as test pieces and still need the KS money to produce more or amend those runs...
Kind of an odd take to just call that "lies".
Kodos was just pointing out that Sarouan is holding Mantic to an unachievable standard and would probably be condemning them no matter what.
I removed my initial response text soon after posting because I felt it was mean spirited and poked fun at you rather than countering your arguments. I'm sorry you caught it, to be honest. No hatred here, I just don’t understand how you can get so much mileage out of having a bad experience on Kickstarter.
I used to be quite Mantic KS averse (of course they’re doing ANOTHER ONE!), until my mate started working for them (he’s The Marketing Machine you mention a lot) and he lifted the curtain on their KS reasonings and I have been a pretty staunch Mantic fan since. I have got to know Ronnie and a few of the management team, and I can tell you from first hand experience that every single one of them wants to create a great product that they are proud of, that people want to play, and that will grow their player base. Results are varied so far but they are getting there. They are very nice people, and a million miles away from the greedy corporation you want to paint them as. Just look at their HQ on google maps!
Regarding quality - I have KS copies of The Walking Dead and Hellboy and they are very very good products – both components and the actual game.
To be fair, they have released some stinkers. It is frustrating to see the difference in quality from the Rift Forged and Marauder Orcs compared to the Ogres and Halflings (not kick started, oddly enough) but generally speaking, to me, every release is an improvement on the last.
Reach out to Mantic, air your views with them directly. It will be quite cathartic I’d wager.
Regarding the underlined part... Most KS that have minis tend to show minis in detail, doesn't need to be final production ones( would be important for them to say what material they will end up using and at least have some examples of past projects) but the nature of KS is that they are WIP so WIP materials or concepts on renders or prints or concept art and so on and on is NOT a lie man. It's what KS meant to be.
BTW some KS do have production models in small runs as test pieces and still need the KS money to produce more or amend those runs...
Kind of an odd take to just call that "lies".
Kodos was just pointing out that Sarouan is holding Mantic to an unachievable standard and would probably be condemning them no matter what.
Ah ok I was being too literal then, In that case yeah all good ignore my post. I hope that KS are perceived as such.
KS is always a risk no matter what company does them.
Thanks.
On another note Mantic is going to be at salute in month time so I wonder if they have demos and minis there for the project.
kodos wrote: I don't care for the models at all
For a game I need something that gets the job done, no need to add in something super detailed and expensive were a cardboard token would have done the same
So in this case the gameplay preview is much more important for me than anything about the models
For preview models being different, even GW only shows resin masters in advance and the model picture on the box is not made from the sprue inside. This is standard as no one wants to have his models on stock to wait for the cardboard to be done to ship it.
For the KS itself, saying they need money for tooling to produce the models would be a lie if they use production models for the previews.
Yet they cannot use 3D prints for a gameplay review either because this means they lie about the not yet produced models
If Mantic was clear during the Dungeon Saga Kickstarter that their minis were not intended for painting and were designed purely as tokens, I'd have been less annoyed at their quality when they finally arrived.
As it is, I have a box them taking up space in the back of my closet since the models aren't adequate for painting or D&D, and Descent and HeroQuest have better rules as dungeon crawlers.
Kodos was just pointing out that Sarouan is ho]lding Mantic to an unachievable standard and would probably be condemning them no matter what.
Not at all. I know Mantic Games is making mediocre products, will clearly keep doing that and their fanboyz will happily buy them while saying it's good enough for them.
But that doesn't mean you should always act like that. Especially when it's repeated over and over.
Because on the opposite of what Kodos is saying, it is achievable if you give yourself the means. Of course, if you're content with the current situation and feel comfortable because your fanboyz keep buying whatever you throw at them without looking, why do it ? And I understand perfectly why Mantic Games is doing it. It's simply business. Just like GW.
Reach out to Mantic, air your views with them directly. It will be quite cathartic I’d wager.
Oh I already did. Of course they don't care about it, but at least here it can be interesting to read for other users who are looking for information about the KS. Dakkadakka is one channel amongst others, after all.
So it's the "one vs. many" format. I wonder if solo / co-op play will be tacked on as a stretch goal, again. It was a BIG request in the first Dungeon Saga and was eventually added but didn't get the care the format demanded so it fell short.
Ronnie says they've learned from their previous mistakes but, if so, I would have expected that solo / co-op would have been baked in from the start to attract fans of both formats at the onset. That would be a boon for quick funding.
That being said, from the play video, it doesn't seem all that difficult to house rule & tweak the Overlord format to be solo / co-op.
Thing is, there are SO MANY variations of the Dungeon Crawl theme on the market now (and in my closet) that Mantic needs to make Dungeon Saga stand out as special and unique and not a retread of their mediocre 9 y.o. first pass that left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of backers.
another video with the difference between old and new DS here Ronnie mention that with the original game, Solo Play was "bolted on" and never feel right, this time it is a smooth experience and part of the game
the Solo/Coop Stretch Goal in the KS (and so far the only planned unlock) will the AI as an App
kodos wrote: another video with the difference between old and new DS here Ronnie mention that with the original game, Solo Play was "bolted on" and never feel right, this time it is a smooth experience and part of the game
the Solo/Coop Stretch Goal in the KS (and so far the only planned unlock) will the AI as an App
and another gameplay preview (3rd party review)
Kudos kodos !! Thanks for the info and links
Gotta say, so far this looks promising and might go a long way to redeem what the original Dungeon Saga should have been. Damn, I can't believe Ronnie's Siren Song can still worm it's way into my head. I need a buff to my Will save !!!
I'm currently painting, almost finished even, the Hellboy board game and have really enjoyed playing it. The minis are good. Some are better than others, but I would put them next to basically any non-CMON board game minis out there (and I've painted a lot of board games!)
Similarly, the Walking Dead minis are also very good. They aren't super detailed, but they fit the comic book style very well and were easy and fun to paint and evocative of what each piece should represent.
I've painted a bunch of board games, did Skyrim minis (just the ones in the core box, not the minis expansion to be fair) recently, painted up the first season of Final Girl recently, painted up Journeys in Middle Earth, painted up most of Mansions of Madness, Resident Evil 3 by Steamforged, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some others. Long story short: both Hellboy and Walking Dead have better minis than any of those. They aren't as nice as Cthulhu Death May Die, but few games are, but they are better than any non-CMON board game I've painted.
I've also been burnt by Mantic in the past. First edition Deadzone, for instance, was very underwhelming and a big disappointment after some friends and I were hyped and painted it up and everything.
People don't need to like Mantic, I'd argue no one should really like any company at all, but they seem to be open about their past mistakes and what they are trying to do better with Dungeon Saga Origins. I'm excited for it, both because I really enjoy the Hellboy board game (and its components) and because it sounds like all the things that made me think Dungeon Saga wasn't for me is either fixed or understood by Mantic and they aren't too shy about talking about its shortcomings.
TheHammer wrote: I've also been burnt by Mantic in the past. First edition Deadzone, for instance, was very underwhelming and a big disappointment after some friends and I were hyped and painted it up and everything.
Just a side note, but as someone who also invested in First edition Deadline back in the day but never played it, I'm sorry to hear that the game was pants, because I might give it a whirl someday. I did play a few games of Mantic's Mars Attacks, which I thought was basically a sort of "Deadzone lite," and even though I still don't care much for the property itself, it was the most fun I've had playing any Mantic game. (Those mutant ants and spiders are still awesome minis, too.) Regardless, I got my money's worth from Deadzone with the minis and terrain, and that's what I was buying in for.
Some of the Deadzone minis were outstanding - I think the Rebs Teraton and Plague First Gen hold up pretty well, even alongside CMON's better efforts. Some other Deadzone minis were mediocre - unfortunately and unwisely, Mantic was rushing their talented in-house sculptor - and some were pretty terrible. But I got my fun out of all of them, because I kitbashed the hell out of the mediocre and terrible ones until I made figures that I still love, and I learned a lot about modeling in the process. To put it in a nutshell, bad Deadzone minis introduced me to the joys of kitbashing. I just never painted them, but I'm finally (and slowly, 'cause that's how I paint) getting around to that now.
If the game itself isn't good, I'll most likely use those minis with a different system like Stargrave or 5 parsecs from home or home rules that I kitbash myself.
You said, "People don't need to like Mantic, I'd argue no one should really like any company at all . . ." Wise words! They can be hard to follow with smaller companies, because your heart pulls for the underdog. But the truth is that even people with their hearts in the right place can make a poor product, or even a really good product that just doesn't appeal to your particular tastes. I admit, I can't help liking Mantic; they launched Deadzone during a hard period in my life, right when I needed it. And BobtheInquistor and me are of one mind that if you want more variety in your sci-fi Aliens, Mantic is a goldmine. But like you, I'm now a jaded, or shall I say "experienced" Mantic customer. There's nothing Mantic currently sells that I want to buy. But that doesn't mean I won't keep an eye on what they come up with next.
If any of the above makes me a "Fanboy," well, with fanboys like me, Mantic couldn't stay in business. And while it's become a pleasurable challenge / side activity for me, I get that most people aren't going to want to spend time kitbashing minis they aren't already in love with.
Anyhow, glad to hear the Hellboy miniatures are good. I'm not going to invest in a Hellboy game, but if I get the chance to buy or trade for a few of the better looking monster minis (the frog creatures looked good,) I'll keep your words in mind.
Did the first Deadzone campaign give us the hard plastic Enforcers, Peacekeepers, GCPS and Asterian Marionettes? Those were all very solid plastic kits, with the enforcers being the weakest in my opinion.
I also love love love the restic Resistance minis from that campaign, especially the “happy feet” aliens and Teratons. I also love the Dreadball restic minis for converting. There are surprisingly many interesting aliens and armor designs covered. I hope someday they’ll make plastic Z’zor, Nameless or Teratons.
I also thought the Mars Attacks game was well written, so I’m surprised to hear that Deadzone was considered a bad game. But then, I don’t game like most wargamers. And I never pledge for Mantic games kickstarters for the actual games.
As for their most recent plastics, I think a lot of the dislike comes down to aesthetic choices rather than quality, although yes half the new plastics seem to have blurry side issues a decade after blurry side issues were presumed cured. While I think that’s easy to ignore or cover up with pouches and holsters, it’s a fair reason not to pledge or buy. There are other affordable plastics out there, or if you prefer to pay through the nose for GW quality that’s also fair. Personally, I’m happy with what I’ve received from Mantic over the years and would recommend them to anyone looking for decent quality minis who enjoys their aesthetics. If you’re looking for a fun game first, I would recommend other things.
plastic Enforcer, GCPS and Asterians were 2nd Edition Deadzone
1st had them all in PVC with the Plague being still solid models
1st Edition Deadzone was an ok game, I did not really liked it but other did
it changed with 2nd Edition and as it grow on me, those that loved 1st Edition did not really liked any of the changes
3rd is now a very solid game and for me one of the best skirmish games out there
so for Dungeon Saga Origins, Hellboy would be the game to compare it for models and rules
we can expect that DSO models will be similar quality to Hellboy and from the same material
rules wise the main difference is that DSO is designed to be an intro game hence no special dice like in Hellboy
here is another video, about design and game mechanics
I'll throw in my thumbs up for Mars Attacks as well. We had a ton of fun playing that one, and I too thought it was basically a Deadzone- lite.
I even played through some of the missions in the campaign book, which is an absolute rarity for me. Heck, I think someone in my family may still even have a copy of the core game. Might need to go borrow it.
Maybe it's time I try out 3E of Deadzone. Between myself and Barzam we've got an immense pile of terrain and multiple painted factions at this point.
I still kind of wish Vanguard had been more along the lines of Mars Attacks and Deadzone, rather than what we got.
Still eagerly anticipating seeing what this campaign will consist of!
the Solo/Coop Stretch Goal in the KS (and so far the only planned unlock) will the AI as an App
Mantic "Don't you guys have phones ?!" Games.
We've established at this point you just have a personal grudge but you're outing yourself massively here - all the most popular dungeon crawlers use phone apps for their AI now to great effect. I doubt you play them if you think this is in any way a negative.
Shadow Walker wrote: So the solo mode is App only? My interest in that game has now reached a zero.
The SG is to have a digital option to reveal the map to you when playing solo/co-op. The rules for playing solo/co-op are part of the core game (no app required).
Shadow Walker wrote: So the solo mode is App only? My interest in that game has now reached a zero.
The SG is to have a digital option to reveal the map to you when playing solo/co-op. The rules for playing solo/co-op are part of the core game (no app required).
I just backed, it's a pretty great deal overall, I can use the terrain from the first game and stick with the basic £89 pledge.
Overall, it's looking like a big improvement on the original, which I enjoyed, but setup/teardown time, a little overcomplexity and the timer mechanic were the weak spots.
Looking forward to playing this one co-op with the map reveal app.
Seems to be getting a lot of attention, already funded, probably over £100k on day one which sets things up nicely for the rest of the campaign.
I'm sure Hellboy was £89.00 for the basic pledge a few years ago, so that's some solid pricing from Mantic bearing in mind recent increases in every single bloody thing you can possibly think of.
Billicus wrote: The new Twilight Kin look good, hopefully won't be too long a wait for them to get the same treatment in Kings of War.
Crop and repost for the curious:
Going by the concept art, these are sculpts for Neophytes (bow + glaive), Impalers (shield bro), Summoner Crones (mutating and otherwise), and our friend the Reaper.
I dug the Trident stuff Mantic premiered in League of Infamy, same for TK here. Assuming the turnaround to KOW production models will be faster as well, between the TK re-release dates we've been given and the world not in a supply chain crushing pandemic so much now.
The campaign will be successful, no trouble about it. For UK based backers, it's certainly a fine deal if you take the best one. For others...be aware the pledge doesn't include import taxes and given the amount, it will be certainly salty.
As for what delays / final quality of the materials may happen 'till the release date...it's a Mantic Game kickstarter, so you've already been warned enough.
Now let the Hype make you all feel good and happy for those who want to ride !
Looking at the print quality they've used for the painted minis, I am extremely hopeful for the Twilight Kin range. Unlikely I'll ever play KoW but it's good to see a complete retake on such a classic trope.
.Mikes. wrote: This is your periodic reminder that this forum has a handy and functional block function.
Tabletop_Magpie wrote: Looking at the print quality they've used for the painted minis, I am extremely hopeful for the Twilight Kin range. Unlikely I'll ever play KoW but it's good to see a complete retake on such a classic trope.
I looked it over, and at least they're not touting a big book of vile darkness or whatever Ronnie was calling the WHQ95-esque mode in the original.
This looks like the decent repair job the original Dungeon Saga needed, but the Mantic Heroquest-inspired boardgame is just not the game I'm looking for. Especially not with League of Dungeoneers close to fulfillment.
Good luck on another big KS, I guess. I won't be involved this time.
The gameplay looks pretty generic and uninspired. Can you sum up what exactly makes it unique and different from dozens dungeon crawlers on the market?
Had to read through a lot of pointless posts to get to the actual chat last three pages.
But yeah was looking at this, decided to back at standard for now, £99 for base is really good.
Though I do like the dice tray and all the scenery, so £144 isn’t that bad to get all that included..
Cyel wrote: The gameplay looks pretty generic and uninspired. Can you sum up what exactly makes it unique and different from dozens dungeon crawlers on the market?
It's improved Dungeon Saga made by Mantic Games. That's just it.
The real value isn't from the game itself, but the offer of the Kickstarter itself with the different "free addons / stretch goals" - and the fact they say it will be sold at a higher price in retail. Basically miniatures you can use for other better systems if you get bored with the game itself.
Sarouan wrote: ... and the fact they say it will be sold at a higher price in retail. Basically miniatures you can use for other better systems if you get bored with the game itself.
Isn't that exactly how GW sell their board games? Many people that buy those are after the minis and not the game. Your argument is a bit wasted Sarouan.
That is indeed how I decide to buy Mantic board games and GW board games. And CMON board games. And Kingdom Death board game. And Mythic board games. And Shadows of Brimstone, which turned out to be the one game we played more than once or twice.
Isn't that exactly how GW sell their board games? Many people that buy those are after the minis and not the game. Your argument is a bit wasted Sarouan.
Not really, GW doesn't use Kickstarter. And there are board games whose inherent value is the game itself - those that don't give fancy stretch goals with 3D miniatures and focus more on purely rule aspect. Here, it's not the case, that's just all. And it's not especially a bad thing, as long people don't have any regret with what they get in the end.
Cyel wrote: The gameplay looks pretty generic and uninspired. Can you sum up what exactly makes it unique and different from dozens dungeon crawlers on the market?
If it’s lie the original it is a straightforward tactical dungeon crawl. Varied problems, fast play. I suppose I would call it ultra generic? None of the uniqueness of others but also none of the excesses?
Looked over the KS, and that's a darn good deal. If I didn't already have HQ I'd probably take the plunge.
Taking what others have said one step further, I take all minis boardgames and indeed all minis wargames with the considerations of both how much I might like the game and how much I will enjoy the miniatures once -and it's an inevitability in most cases- the game dies.
Different designer, though. However, IIRC, Matt's the lead of the community-design for Dungeon Saga and has worked on it since the original was released, I think. The original designer, Jake Thorton, had a falling out with Mantic president (?), Ronnie Renton, when Ronnie promised content without Jake's knowing (mostly the advanced book, which was not well-received by boardgamers).
Battle Systems, btw, has its 28mm 3D dungeon terrain (walls and stuff) which should work with Dungeon Saga (and also works as ruins terrain). Note that the Maladum dungeon *game* is a separate thing you don't have to purchase.
I have the plastic furniture mentioned in the Ultimate Pledge. It works for tabletop, but that's about it. (Yes, every time there's a Reaper or Mantic KS, someone expects display-level miniatures.) I hated painting the pre-assembled bookshelves -- the recessed areas made removing mold lines a pain, and painting all those little details a chore.
> Basically miniatures you can use for other better systems if you get bored with the game itself.
> Can you sum up what exactly makes it unique and different from dozens dungeon crawlers on the market?
It's... Mantic? I'm guessing it's either the historical reason that it's Mantic's first-ish boardgame, or that the game is there to support *Mantic's* existing fantasy line. OTOH, I'm not seeing conversion rules in the rules PDF that suggests using other Mantic figures. 40 quests, core plus three expansions.
I already have plenty of dice-chucking dungeoncrawlers (Gloomhaven fired them), and have yet to play my retail copy of Dungeon Saga or paint my Kings of War armies. ): I think Mantic is too much in the middle. It started as a low-cost alternative to Games Workshop (especially after Warhammer Fantasy), but KS sure made the low-cost miniature market crowded. Various companies went niche (eg. CMON's Zombicide, Archon's terrain) but I'm seeing Mantic as trying to do what others have already done. If they did an inexpensive (under $.75 a model or something) bulk miniatures-only campaign, particularly of miniatures I didn't already have, I think I'd be interested.
Note that this Kickstarter's miniatures has them on a round base, and they're intended to be available in the box in one piece. Kings of War uses square bases. Sure, there will be someone argueing you can still use them on multi-bases regiments and so on, but I have cut enough round bases from such miniatures to know it will be a chore and often not worth the work on Mantic Games average miniature line.
Why the change ? Certainly because it appeals more visually to the boardgame community (for some reason, square bases are seen as a "thing of the past"). Because rule wise, it actually doesn't make a difference, since the rules are based on the squares of the tiles. But that tells me the designers here didn't think of the opportunity to use them for their other main fantasy game. Or maybe they did and they specifically didn't want players to use dirt cheap miniatures from their boardgame while they will give the KoW version (or it already exists, for abyssal dwarves and goblins) later for higher price.
Otherwise, they said in the Kickstarter that almost everything is ready to go, so that's why they're expecting on releasing it end of 2023. Which is exactly why I despise using Kickstarter in this situation and let me feel like it's a cash grab to the detriment of the players. And sure, others use Kickstarter exactly the same, including big corporations like Hasbro for their new Heroquest - doesn't make Mantic Games the worst, just the same.
Anyway, enough negativity from me about it. Back to the Hype !
Core rules actually don't change that much from the original and is really focus on being Mantic Games equivalent of Hasbro Heroquest, but that's not the point of this KS. The real change will come from the scenarios, that's where the fun and balance will have to be. Though since it's Mantic Games equivalent of Hasbro Heroquest, the balance won't really have to be the focus here...its purpose is to be something you'll play with your children, often as the adult as the "Dungeon master" who doesn't go too hard on their heroes so that they spend a good time together. That's why the original was still loved by most of its players : when used in this way, rules really don't matter that much.
TBH this project isn't really targeted towards players who already have the first one's materials / existing miniatures. Like all Kickstarter offering a bundle for a limited time, it's for people who missed the previous Kickstarter / who can't resist the Fear Of Missing Out (FOMO)'s siren song, even though they actually do not need it. That's why the advertisement in this project focus on how good a deal this one is and how much money you'll save in comparison to the prices that may be used in retail...(another scummy, yet understandable marketing move)
Sarouan wrote: Note that this Kickstarter's miniatures has them on a round base, and they're intended to be available in the box in one piece. Kings of War uses square bases. Sure, there will be someone argueing you can still use them on multi-bases regiments and so on, but I have cut enough round bases from such miniatures to know it will be a chore and often not worth the work on Mantic Games average miniature line.
Why the change ? Certainly because it appeals more visually to the boardgame community (for some reason, square bases are seen as a "thing of the past"). Because rule wise, it actually doesn't make a difference, since the rules are based on the squares of the tiles. But that tells me the designers here didn't think of the opportunity to use them for their other main fantasy game. Or maybe they did and they specifically didn't want players to use dirt cheap miniatures from their boardgame while they will give the KoW version (or it already exists, for abyssal dwarves and goblins) later for higher price.
Otherwise, they said in the Kickstarter that almost everything is ready to go, so that's why they're expecting on releasing it end of 2023. Which is exactly why I despise using Kickstarter in this situation and let me feel like it's a cash grab to the detriment of the players. And sure, others use Kickstarter exactly the same, including big corporations like Hasbro for their new Heroquest - doesn't make Mantic Games the worst, just the same.
Anyway, enough negativity from me about it. Back to the Hype !
Core rules actually don't change that much from the original and is really focus on being Mantic Games equivalent of Hasbro Heroquest, but that's not the point of this KS. The real change will come from the scenarios, that's where the fun and balance will have to be. Though since it's Mantic Games equivalent of Hasbro Heroquest, the balance won't really have to be the focus here...its purpose is to be something you'll play with your children, often as the adult as the "Dungeon master" who doesn't go too hard on their heroes so that they spend a good time together. That's why the original was still loved by most of its players : when used in this way, rules really don't matter that much.
Yeah, the round base thing is wierd. Especially if you read the preview of the rules which has models on squares, and the facing of the models and the squares seem to matter.
If they were all on square bases, and matched the sizes they used with KoW, I'd probably buy this. As it is, the thought of carving pvc models with tiny feet off round bases to try and rebase them has me saying no to this KS.
the square bases from DS do not fit the KoW bases either and the models were glued on those
so still needed to cut them off if wanted to do single bases in KoW
general speaking, casted round bases are non-issue
for single bases you just glue them on the plastic and cut the overlap and for multi-basing you just glue them on the base
casted round bases are the standard in historical gaming and no one goes and complains that they need to cut them off for multibasing (and they are round simply because making a one piece model with squares does not really work)
but I guess if casted round bases make them impossible to use for R&F gaming, I need to write a letter to the Perrys and Victrix that their models are now for board games only
PS: regarding using the DS boxes as cheap model supply, just don't
if you want cheap Goblins, Abyssal Dwarfs or Undead, go for the Ambush Boxes, they are way cheaper and come with more models
the DSO Box will be 50-60€ retail, an Ambush Box is 35-40€ retail with 40 Goblins instead of 18
Especially if you read the preview of the rules which has models on squares, and the facing of the models and the squares seem to matter.
They simply copied-pasted the original picture from the 1st version. But it doesn't really matter if the miniature is on a round or square base rule-wise - you take the square where the miniature's face is looking as the front one, the rest is determined by the tile square where the miniature is put.
PS: regarding using the DS boxes as cheap model supply, just don't
if you want cheap Goblins, Abyssal Dwarfs or Undead, go for the Ambush Boxes, they are way cheaper and come with more models
the DSO Box will be 50-60€ retail, an Ambush Box is 35-40€ retail with 40 Goblins instead of 18
Just talking about the deal of this Kickstarter here. And I was thinking more of using these as characters, whose price is significantly higher than troops.
Sure, first version has square of slightly higher than their type, but when used as individuals, the difference doesn't really matter. It was perfectly usable like this. So usable Mantic Games did release a KoW campaign using DS's original heroes and villains as actual characters in their respective armies.
Here, with round bases...that's a different matter, because KoW doesn't have tile squares to determine their arcs. Well, it can still be used with a bit of imagination / putting it on a square for the game, but it's not as easy as the first version for sure.
As for historical games...their initial intent is not to be used with KoW's system. The difference here with Perry miniatures and Dungeon Saga Origin miniatures is that Mantic Games is the same designer for KoW and DS. So they could have taken that into consideration already, but they didn't. Matt does also perfectly knows KoW's system, since he worked on that too. I don't see why he couldn't decide to use square bases for DSO's miniatures if he thought about it, too.
the historical minis are meant to be used for Rank&File games with multi-basing
the DSO models are meant to be used for DSO first
but if you want to use them in KoW it is not a problem
if you want to use them for both, not a problem either, unit bases for 25mm rounds exist and are used by other R&F games as well
and if you are willing to pay 60€ to use them as characters still better of buying them individually
going just for the models, you get 80 in total (by now), 8 of them being heroes, that is 2€ per model or 20€ per Hero
if you just want the Heroes, 20€ per model
you will be always cheaper, either buying the heroes on their own or the Ambush Boxes for the troops, or both combined
if you don't want the game but the models, just buy the models (and there is a good chance the plastic TK will be out before DSO is shipped)
Of course you can always modify your miniatures the way you want. That's not the point.
My point is DSO using round bases for their miniatures is a missed opportunity to also use them in their main fantasy game KoW (and incidently Vanguard) by simply using square bases instead. It's not something that difficult to do as a main design for miniatures, knowing that since I do 3D sculpt my own now.
Yet, Matt and its team claim in the comments they are now more experienced since the 1st and apparently that experience means forgetting what they did with the first version : a KoW campaign using the heroes and villains as characters for KoW armies. A shame, really, but it is what it is.
As a veteran, I'll be using my old dungeon saga minis with this for playing the core game, they're painted, the minis are perfectly good and there isn't much need to replace them.
Ditto for the 3d terrain, already have it and it's painted, so I'll be able to hit the ground running with the game as soon as it arrives. Just leaves the expansions to paint up.
I do appreciate the £89 core pledge with card tokens rather than the terrain crate scenery, gives me everything I need without much duplication and is really light on the wallet for a board game with 100 minis and 3 expansions.
I'm likely to 3d print some dungeon tiles and other bits for the game anyway, something like true tiles will work perfectly for it since the doors clip on to the walls and the 1,25" standard allows for the 10x10 grid to be replicated without walls getting in the way of mini placement.
Going thru the different podcasts, videos and the DSO Kickstarter some hints for upcoming releases:
- Nigthstalkers are next, new Butcher and Reaper plastic kits both making 1 additional new unit
- Sisterhood plastic kit end of the year
- Dwarfs going big, new Imperial and Free Dwarfs with NA stuff (and something along with raven riders)
- Elves are coming as well
- STL files for upgrade bits are coming
- Armada gets companion support soon, as well as STL files for the ships for subscribers to make it easier to get into the game
- Ronni said that some people already have test-printed the ships in 28mm scale (and now I want to do this as well)
- they are not sure what to do with Vanguard as the people who play it now really like it while others want something more simple
Sarouan wrote: It's not something that difficult to do as a main design for miniatures, knowing that since I do 3D sculpt my own now.
it is not about designing square bases but casting them, miniatures with round bases can be cast in 1 piece, minis with square bases are 2 pieces that need to be glued something Mantic does not want to do with that game
and if you want to use them in KoW you are going to paint them anyway and just add 4 markings on the base for facings, and it is that simple
The round bases are so orientation in producing the miniatures didn’t matter. They can pick the way round that prints best. A square base had 4 ways round to make the mold.
Going back to the comment on they didn’t need Kickstarter if they’re ready to go with everything designed etc.
Remember the point here is to get the money to pay for it all being produced on mass, moulds made, print runs of stuff and so on.
Not for the design side (though it is still being worked on even now it seems),
The mouths on the ends of the arm on some of the Butchers might indicate some sort of ranged attack variant.
Really great to see Mantic going back and filling out armies which only got a basic initial release with more HIPS kits, there have been a lot of new army releases over the years with initial single hard plastic + lots of pricy resin or monopose PVC.
A "second wave" release for pretty much every KoW faction would be brilliant and really start making the game approachable to people coming from GW games where it's generally expected that everything will be on sprues.
I'm hoping to see Northern Alliance soon, frostfang cavalry and tundra wolves in HIPS would be awesome, and could be done as part of a broader release for the Varangur faction which shares a lot of its units with Northern Alliance.
The move to Archon for their tooling seems to be an immediate success, they're suddenly outputting sprues with much greater variety, options and starting to make large infantry and cavalry well, too. The new reapers look quite interesting as sculpts with some of the heads split into four jaw parts.
I finally picked up some of Mantic's newer goblins the other day (along with the new modular chariot kit) and they're all awesome, loaded with character, looted gear, a little bit "labyrinth", a little bit "goblin shark" and lots of ramshackle goblin-tier tech (looted knife tied to stick = spear). Some new trolls (completely redesigned) and/or cavalry would really give that army a boost.
The Dungeon Saga Origins Kickstarter is now in its last 24 hours. All reveals have now been done, including 10 heroes, and a box that fits all the included expansions in organiser trays. Mantic have also said that after it eventually hits retail they intend to support it longer term with future expansions that could explore things like custom heroes and missions.
Warhall is free and available for Android, iOS, Mac and Windows as well as browser based
Previously known for hosting T9A with the paid client giving access to high resolution graphics and some more tools to play like saving army lists and changing colours (by this point it is unkown what will be the difference between free and paid for Armada)
First up is the entire Basilean and Orc Fleets for Armada, along with a bunch of Riftforged Orc and Halfling miniatures and upgrade sets for the hard plastics.
Mantic companion subscribers get 60% off the Mantic Vault subscription.
The initial offering is definitely better than expected:
Spoiler:
I would have been content with just unit upgrades, terrain and small game stuff, but full Hellstrikers and Aeronauts too! I'm excited to a) print these but also b) make the construction process easier compared to many pieces of cast resin. (But also I'm most excited for the unit upgrades, these are really painful to get in the US and open up the Mantic plastic kits even further.)
They could have created bespoke digital fleets. Instead they used currently available fleets and have indirectly caused retailers who invested in armada to have dead stock.
I'm not saying this is a terrible thing, but I think they could have approached the digital side a bit more like wargames atlantics "no current products will be ported, but upgrade packs are fair game."
Am I missing the link somewhere? I go to the site for the free .stl file and it says you have to register. I am registered, so I log in and try to download the files, now it says you must subscribe to the vault. It's not free if you have to pay for the vault. I wanted to see if I could print a decent ship, the few I have seen at the shop all look like they have had issues.
Thanks, That's where I was going and clicking. I had to log in twice to get it to come to where it came up Download instead of register. Not sure what I was doing wrong. I might try and print some out tonight/this weekend to see how they look.
McDougall Designs wrote: They could have created bespoke digital fleets. Instead they used currently available fleets and have indirectly caused retailers who invested in armada to have dead stock.
I'm not saying this is a terrible thing, but I think they could have approached the digital side a bit more like wargames atlantics "no current products will be ported, but upgrade packs are fair game."
This to me seems like a gaffe too... I would have liked to have seen variants to the Armada ships (I don't need any 3d printed duplicates of ships I already own, but if they had spent a small amount of time tweaking existing ships... I would have been all over those) but this seems the worst of two worlds: my FLGS with their stock they've had for over a year... Will never unload it now. And folks who already have those ships, probably have limited interest in getting more.
Think this might be overestimating the penetration of 3D printers in the miniature hobby community. There are plenty of STLs out there for ranges that still sell equivalent physical models just fine.
Billicus wrote: Think this might be overestimating the penetration of 3D printers in the miniature hobby community. There are plenty of STLs out there for ranges that still sell equivalent physical models just fine.
Its not about the market penetration of printers.
Its the availability of printed models and printing service. Mantic has already said that subscribers can send the files to print services for printing, so long as the print services are ethical about it and don't market those items for wider sale.
Not everyone has a 3D printer.
Everyone has google and 20 seconds to find a print service local to them.
and 90% of the hobby community is budget conscious, leading them to the most inexpensive option: 3D prints of models that were otherwise available in conventional formats.
This is a negative to anyone who invested heavily in armada at its launch and has orc and basilean product sitting on shelves.
McDougall Designs wrote: Mantic has already said that subscribers can send the files to print services for printing, so long as the print services are ethical about it and don't market those items for wider sale.
Oh wow, I missed that there's no merchant tier
Curious how offerings for months 3+ look after this strong start and bonkers early bird pricing. Assuming next month will keep the hype going.
In related news, printed the sniper goblin over night, had my terrible supports on the Morax arms generally fail, and combined a Helstriker into one piece because f gap-filling. Will print the big guy tonight I reckon, or at least see if my supports hold up.
Armada had other issues, too. I went in when it dropped, got two starters worth of Basileans and Orcs, with a heap of EOD and Dwarfs, including the big chunk ships, and then Mantic went as raised prices for the next fleets by 25-33%. Something that was not an impulse buy, but carefully considered at $30, was now $40. The box sets became unpalatable in one wave, and the game unattractive. The Elves and Salamanders went from near the top of my want list to something I just gave up on. Money has become really tight this year, at least for me, so that felt like a real bait and switch by Mantic.
Yeah, if I were a retailer I would drop Mantic in a hot second over this.
Mantic has the worst miniatures out of all the plastics on the market. I've just run out of patience waiting for them to produce half decent plastics. Everything just goes to mush on the sides.
Gallahad wrote: Yeah, if I were a retailer I would drop Mantic in a hot second over this.
Mantic has the worst miniatures out of all the plastics on the market. I've just run out of patience waiting for them to produce half decent plastics. Everything just goes to mush on the sides.
I'd drop 'em. I certainly have as a consumer.
The last few years (ever since Warpath finished delivering, I guess?) have been pretty dire, but they just switched to Archon, which is kinda the best (same factory Conquest uses for their new kits, and Wizkids for D&D frameworks)
Gallahad wrote: Yeah, if I were a retailer I would drop Mantic in a hot second over this.
Mantic has the worst miniatures out of all the plastics on the market. I've just run out of patience waiting for them to produce half decent plastics. Everything just goes to mush on the sides.
I'd drop 'em. I certainly have as a consumer.
The last few years (ever since Warpath finished delivering, I guess?) have been pretty dire, but they just switched to Archon, which is kinda the best (same factory Conquest uses for their new kits, and Wizkids for D&D frameworks)
Wait so your saying Mantic changed what their models are made out of.... Where's the news in that.
But seriously, I picked up the Ambush Abyssal set to check it out and try to get friends to play it. The models weren't bad, very reminiscent of what I played with when I started warhammer...30+ years ago. I just get the feeling that they are trapped in the "Golden Era" of gaming when plastic models were the new thing and very limited in what they could do. For Nostalgia it's great, for creating a market leading company (or top teir anyway) it is suicide.
Gallahad wrote:
Mantic has the worst miniatures out of all the plastics on the market. I've just run out of patience waiting for them to produce half decent plastics. Everything just goes to mush on the sides.
I disagree, but don't think arguing will be helpful to anyone.
Have you seen the new models though?
From the new ogres.
Mantic are using a new manufacturer that is said to actually care about miniature quality.
No, Mantic does not changed the material, but they changed the company making them, again.
By now there were 3 different ones in the past and now is is the 4th.
First models were made by Renedra in England (Undead, Dwarfs and Elves which
ave a design problem, not a quality one), but because they have limited capacity and their main customer is Perry Miniatures, Mantic switched to a Chinese one
That worked for a while but had long delivery times (which messed up first Basilea run as they could not wait for pre-production samples) hence they switched to another Chinese one who turned out to be not reliable with quality (Goblins, Basilea and Halflings were fine, Riftforge Orcs, EoD and Ratkin not so much)
So they changed to a european one again, Archon in Poland, who made the new Ogres
given that Archon by now has a good track record, the upcoming Mantic Models should be more reliable in quality and because they are in europe delivered faster.
So there is a difference in quality, depending on which company made the models, which in general means all the older ones and the very new ones.
Abyssals are from the old ones and given that they are already old, good models
PS: making a general statement that all mantic plastics are bad is a tricky one, you may not like the design of all of them, but those that were made by the same company making the Perry or the Conquest models, are the same quality as those.
Previously I was never much a fan of Mantics kings of war offerings. But the new models have actually been rather good kits! The new abyssal dwarf, goblin and ratkin plastics are actually really nice. I've brought most of the newer kits, and planned to buy a few more or duplicates of units instead of getting the WFB equivalents.
But seeing them open this new STL vault, I'm not a fan. I have no interest in printing models, and as its going to be a cheaper to produce revenue scheme for them I can see them moving away from making as many new kits as they otherwise might have done. It will put me (and I know it will has also put others in my group off) from buying into more of their stuff now as I won't want to end up with kits or games that can only be supplemented with 3d models/parts.
I think there were a couple manufacturer changes kodos missed and might now have been fully announced but are evident from the quality of the product and style of design
The Chinese factory that messed up mark 1 Basileans was one place
They switched to a new one for the good era plastics (circa 2015) - Abyssals, Forces of Nature and the Deadzone and Warpath ranges, possibly Basilea mark 2 and Northern Alliance
Then again a new Chinese place when they went to the weird 2 almost identical sprues per unit design, where the sides of the minis where the mold halves meet do not have detail (Marauders, Abyssal Dwarves, Goblins mark 2, Empire of Dust, Riftforged).
The middle Chinese one was actually good and able to do vehicles, dunno why they were dropped in favour of the "we don't do detail on the sides" place. At the same time sculpting also changed from realistic proportions to terrible World of Warcraft styled happy meal toys.
Could be that there was another switch between 2 Kickstarters, I just know of 4 different ones, 2 european and 2 chinese ones and assume they sorted the problems out with the first one after they messed up the first kit (or switched to another one making it 3 chinese companies)
think that ones was turned down because it took too long to get stuff done as they needed to send pre-production samples to confirm the quality and the other one was faster with the first kit being either Goblins or AD which turned out not bad.
Mallo wrote: Previously I was never much a fan of Mantics kings of war offerings. But the new models have actually been rather good kits! The new abyssal dwarf, goblin and ratkin plastics are actually really nice. I've brought most of the newer kits, and planned to buy a few more or duplicates of units instead of getting the WFB equivalents.
But seeing them open this new STL vault, I'm not a fan. I have no interest in printing models, and as its going to be a cheaper to produce revenue scheme for them I can see them moving away from making as many new kits as they otherwise might have done. It will put me (and I know it will has also put others in my group off) from buying into more of their stuff now as I won't want to end up with kits or games that can only be supplemented with 3d models/parts.
I get that people don't want to get into the 3D printing hobby. But the fact that they make additional parts (Alternate heads, weapon load outs and arms) is good for the general public. If you don't want to purchase them fine, but don't limit a way for people to get into a game or more engaged with a game. It's like saying Forgeworld should not exist for GW. If Forgeworld did not exist, then the specific dreadnoughts and more visually stunning models for 40K would not exist. The Chaos Dwarves for Fantasy would have been long gone. No 30K system would have been developed and most likely no chapter specific items would have been created. Death company would just be assault marines painted black with red Xs on the pads, space wolves would be marines with wolf tails glued to the helmets still and Imperial guard would still have just the Russ (most likely just the bog standard one) and Chimera. It wasn't until Forgeworld started making custom doors, Dreads, tanks and planes as well as rules for different systems that GW took off into the hobby it is today. 3D printing can do that for these other companies. Look at wargames Atlantic. They put out great kits, but to make sprues for some kits would not be profitable, so they created Wargames Atlantic digital to fluff out units and armies and to test concepts. If those concepts strike a chord then they can develope a full line knowing they have a market. If not, it still brings in some revenue and creates options.
You can still have your plastic soldiers that you buy in a box, but you could ALSO have some that get mailed to you from a 3D printing company that perfectly fit your models. It's a win-win.
Yea I agree and wish to see this from other companies too. While I do still understand that it is frustrating for the less enfranchised to see other people have access to more options than you do, this is a much more benign version than, for example, kickstarter or event exclusives. It only takes one person with a printer in a play group for everybody to get all the options.
lord_blackfang wrote: Yea I agree and wish to see this from other companies too. While I do still understand that it is frustrating for the less enfranchised to see other people have access to more options than you do, this is a much more benign version than, for example, kickstarter or event exclusives. It only takes one person with a printer in a play group for everybody to get all the options.
I happily print stuff for my friends, it might not be a full army, but right now I have a 20-30 model Bloodbowl team printed for a friend and another 20 models for another friend that I just need to see to give to him. I've given out about 10 other models to people I have played against. You don't have to be involved in 3D printing to get the models. I can cost out the models I print for friends, the above team was just under $5 in resin, it took more time than anything, but I am willing to do that for them, sometimes they pay me back in cash or food, sometimes it's models but I make it available to them. Sometimes I make them purchase the files if it's not something that I would possibly use for myself in the future. I'm sure if people made friends with others in their community that enjoy the 3D printing hobby like I do they could reap the same rewards, if not, then they can purchase the prints online.
Mantic makes sprues where the same body works double duty for multiple models. If they could just make the body frame with extra heads and one type of weapon then the half a sprue that they use for the alternate arms, weapons, and shields could be used for more bodies and heads. The second unit option could be printed 3D files, especially for units that your only going to field one or two of in a whole army. It's a waste of sprue space and production time. It's like upgrade sprues, just digital.
lord_blackfang wrote: Yea I agree and wish to see this from other companies too. While I do still understand that it is frustrating for the less enfranchised to see other people have access to more options than you do, this is a much more benign version than, for example, kickstarter or event exclusives. It only takes one person with a printer in a play group for everybody to get all the options.
Mantic offering files for the unit upgrades makes them far more accessible to me, a person living in the US on the other side of some serious shipping for very cheap bits. Even if I didn't have a printer and was paying someone stateside to print them.
Mallo wrote:
But seeing them open this new STL vault, I'm not a fan. I have no interest in printing models, and as its going to be a cheaper to produce revenue scheme for them I can see them moving away from making as many new kits as they otherwise might have done. It will put me (and I know it will has also put others in my group off) from buying into more of their stuff now as I won't want to end up with kits or games that can only be supplemented with 3d models/parts.
Not sure why you think that's the case?
The stls are of Mantic's resin,which you can still buy from Mantic.
Ronnie has said on interviews that resin is a pain to produce and therefore expensive to buy.
Which is why Mantic has made them available in a different way.
Plastic kits don't appear to be involved and Mantic have an ambitious release schedule announced or this year.
Three significant release that all most likely will have new plastic.
Gallahad wrote: Yeah, if I were a retailer I would drop Mantic in a hot second over this.
Mantic has the worst miniatures out of all the plastics on the market. I've just run out of patience waiting for them to produce half decent plastics. Everything just goes to mush on the sides.
I'd drop 'em. I certainly have as a consumer.
The last few years (ever since Warpath finished delivering, I guess?) have been pretty dire, but they just switched to Archon, which is kinda the best (same factory Conquest uses for their new kits, and Wizkids for D&D frameworks)
Conquest used* for their kits. There is no indication they won't change if a better option comes available.
Gallahad wrote:Yeah, if I were a retailer I would drop Mantic in a hot second over this.
Mantic has the worst miniatures out of all the plastics on the market. I've just run out of patience waiting for them to produce half decent plastics. Everything just goes to mush on the sides.
I'd drop 'em. I certainly have as a consumer.
For perspective, I only have Mantic products available as special order items, now.
Their sprues didn't sell steadily. Full box sets (offered at 20% off msrp) did not move off my shelf.
kodos wrote:Could be that there was another switch between 2 Kickstarters, I just know of 4 different ones, 2 european and 2 chinese ones and assume they sorted the problems out with the first one after they messed up the first kit (or switched to another one making it 3 chinese companies)
think that ones was turned down because it took too long to get stuff done as they needed to send pre-production samples to confirm the quality and the other one was faster with the first kit being either Goblins or AD which turned out not bad.
Honestly, the lack of clarity from Mantic over who is actually producing their models is befuddling. They could explain who they've partnered with. Customers would get clarity and peace of mind, both companies involved would get good PR optics from the transparency.
Boss Salvage wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote: Yea I agree and wish to see this from other companies too. While I do still understand that it is frustrating for the less enfranchised to see other people have access to more options than you do, this is a much more benign version than, for example, kickstarter or event exclusives. It only takes one person with a printer in a play group for everybody to get all the options.
Mantic offering files for the unit upgrades makes them far more accessible to me, a person living in the US on the other side of some serious shipping for very cheap bits. Even if I didn't have a printer and was paying someone stateside to print them.
Hi. Mantic retail trade account located in the states with reasonable shipping, if needed. I'm all for accessibility to miniatures lines.
If it weren’t for a large, unanticipated medical bill last January, I’d have snapped up some (more) of those Mantic products from you. I quite enjoy their plastics.
Honestly, the lack of clarity from Mantic over who is actually producing their models is befuddling. They could explain who they've partnered with. Customers would get clarity and peace of mind, both companies involved would get good PR optics from the transparency.
don't know why
they were open on Renedra and Archon, those are also marked on the sprue and also open on which company made their latest board games
so either they did not want to name the chinese one or not allowed to
I see the stl offer as a way to secure a monthly subscription, and thus having a good revenue on long term. A bit like a patreon or myminifactory tribe.
That's why the offer is generous here. The trouble is that it seems it's a bit random about the content, so you need to be liking the wide range of Mantic Games games to be interested. Not sure next month will be about Armada, for example.
As for retailers...yeah, it's a(nother) bad pill to swallow. But it's not like offering Mantic Games products was a great joyroad for them in the past. Those who kept up since now will most likely adapt their future stock to this new offer (I guess they won't restock a lot of ork and basilean fleets or halfling upgrades now).
Remember, Mantic Games are a cheaper GW. Be aware of this, and you can't be disappointed in the future.
Remember, Mantic Games are a cheaper GW. Be aware of this, and you can't be disappointed in the future.
Which models are GW making more accessible with stls then?
All of them, just not by GW
Pretty much ! You could say only Mantic Games can make .stl of their own products, because no one cares about making "fanart stl" of them.
Anyway, I'm all for more ressources for 3D printers for a fair price. Even if it does collateral damage for some retailers, as selfish as it seems to be.
You can also say GW is the only one were plastic is so expensive that it is worth buying files and cast them in resin
Same as there are no scans for Perry or Victrix, still cheaper to buy the plastic than copy them in resin
Yep, when I'm getting 40 goblins and 2 chariots for £35, (£28 with usual webstore discounts), there isn't much of a reason to break out the printer, or online print services.
That pricing would have been a bargain even 20 years ago, when GW goblins were £12 for 20.
There just aren't any print services which offer pricing under £1/mini, and that's the pricing space where Mantic operates with their hard plastics.
Offering resin upgrades to those hard plastics and resin elite units as STLs is really good for buyers, it is the best of both worlds, get the cheap sprues in bulk, then get even more use out of them by sending a bunch of arms/heads to a print service.
There are already pics of people printing out massive Armada fleets just for fun, so it'll be quite liberating for gameplay as well, people will be able to try out some crazy army builds without having to break the bank.
Retailers will most likely have to pivot towards mainly selling the core bulk hard plastic sets but those were always much easier to shift than £40 for a small box of resin anyway.
It looks like hard plastic production at Mantic is about to accelerate a lot, seems like Mantic is now aiming for 3-4 hard plastic kits, each with multiple build options to be the standard for their model range and is no longer shying away from doing cavalry, monsters and chariots in the material.
I honestly don’t understand why some stores, especially large blind ones don’t get printer farms set up. My local shops could really use them if for nothing else than building terrain for their tables. I went into the smaller local shop which has a huge Battletech group and an ongoing campaign. Yesterday they had like 8 tables set with 3D printed terrain and it just looked so much better than anything else I’ve seen in Years. I left my phone in the car, so no pics, but I recognized them as free 3D files I have saved up. Shops usually have an employee that has some free time to start a print when they come in and clean up the one for the night before. Even if they don’t sell the prints it’s a great way to showcase a game or system you are selling.
Eh, resin printing is messy, smelly, toxic and skill intensive and I would bet that nobody selling prints on etsy is making minimum wage per hour, all accounted for. It's not something a business would have just to bling up the place.
It may be different in the states, but over here in the UK (and i'm fairly sure in the EU too) they'd have to comply with various safety regulation for working with and disposing of the toxic chemicals involved which would include having somewhere with appropriate ventilation set up. All stuff hobbyists (and businesses doing online sales from home who don't have in person contact with customers) can usually ignore
Yeah, Armada ships stl files are good for printing, not especially to play Armada actually. People looking for count-as Man O War or just their own naval fantasy game, they're nice since you have what constitues the core of a fleet (a big ship, a medium ship and a small ship).
The halfling upgrade sprues are okay, just too generic to bother to make copies. Balloon is nice.
Reason why GW is copied isn't just because of the price. Most of the copies are made from 40k universe, and it's not a hazard : it's their strongest characterfull design. GW made the gothic space marines. Mantic Games just did generic SF / fantasy with few quality, that's why there's no real point to copy that. Better to make your own original design at that point. And while Armada is their "original game" ('cause the rules are, you know, inspired from another existing game)... it still doesn't have the same aura / soul than GW's old Man O War game. Copying the copycat is really pointless, and you certainly don't make money from that.
Besides, 3D printing will always be the cheapest one once you already have a 3D printer. Once the original cost absorbed, it's only benefits forward. Even Mantic Games products are more expensive in comparison. That's why people 3D printing use 3D printed armies for KoW : it's still cheaper and...well, it usually looks better than any Mantic Games army to be honest. Saw one using Artisan Guild's miniatures for an army of elves. There's simply no comparison to make here (I know, it's easy 'cause MG elves are crap).
making my own minis is always cheaper than buying them if you don't care about the investment
3d printing, resin casting or even metal casting, once you have the equipment you make or own stuff always cheaper
this has always been that way
and for 40k it is all about the price
no one would care to do the extra work of making their own resin models if the plastic models were cheaper
but if a full plastic Space Marine army cost 3 times the amount of a printer+resin the extra work is worth doing it
same is in the past were people started re-casting at home as buying 5 marines, silicone and resin was much cheaper than buying a full plastic army
if a full army for 40k would cost 250€ in plastic, not many would care to invest the same amount + lots of extra time to print knock offs in a worse material
compare what the most popular files are for 40k and KoW, the one has carbon copies from plastic models, the other one gaming aids
the other point is availability, as printing stuff that is otherwise not available
hence why we see STL files sold for niche armies in historicals, they are not available in plastic and never will, hence it is worth printing them
when it comes to printing farms it depends on how many models you are going to sell
doing it at home for a hobby is different than doing it as a company
specially as you cannot just print everything you find on the web as you want to avoid legal issues
there are stores that had their own resin-casting, mainly for bases and bits, and those have resin printers now and they need to charge more than 1€ per model to cover the costs
lord_blackfang wrote: Yea I agree and wish to see this from other companies too. While I do still understand that it is frustrating for the less enfranchised to see other people have access to more options than you do, this is a much more benign version than, for example, kickstarter or event exclusives. It only takes one person with a printer in a play group for everybody to get all the options.
Mantic offering files for the unit upgrades makes them far more accessible to me, a person living in the US on the other side of some serious shipping for very cheap bits. Even if I didn't have a printer and was paying someone stateside to print them.
Hi. Mantic retail trade account located in the states with reasonable shipping, if needed. I'm all for accessibility to miniatures lines.
Actual Question: Can I get Mantic Direct stuff from you? Because I would have added some to my last order but they weren't on your store and I assumed Mantic didn't do that, since other companies have similar lines that go around retailers (GW, PP).
scarletsquig wrote: Yep, when I'm getting 40 goblins and 2 chariots for £35, (£28 with usual webstore discounts), there isn't much of a reason to break out the printer, or online print services.
Tossing a +1 at the KOW ambush boxes being pretty great. I'm 3 deep into the Goblin one myself.
lord_blackfang wrote: Yea I agree and wish to see this from other companies too. While I do still understand that it is frustrating for the less enfranchised to see other people have access to more options than you do, this is a much more benign version than, for example, kickstarter or event exclusives. It only takes one person with a printer in a play group for everybody to get all the options.
Mantic offering files for the unit upgrades makes them far more accessible to me, a person living in the US on the other side of some serious shipping for very cheap bits. Even if I didn't have a printer and was paying someone stateside to print them.
Hi. Mantic retail trade account located in the states with reasonable shipping, if needed. I'm all for accessibility to miniatures lines.
Actual Question: Can I get Mantic Direct stuff from you? Because I would have added some to my last order but they weren't on your store and I assumed Mantic didn't do that, since other companies have similar lines that go around retailers (GW, PP).
scarletsquig wrote: Yep, when I'm getting 40 goblins and 2 chariots for £35, (£28 with usual webstore discounts), there isn't much of a reason to break out the printer, or online print services.
Tossing a +1 at the KOW ambush boxes being pretty great. I'm 3 deep into the Goblin one myself.
Yes. It's 10% off vs the normal 20% though. Also, the extra 5% off from my "away, delayed shipping" sale would not apply to mantic direct items.
I don't have everything mantic on the web shop. Their catalog is too volatile for me to commit to keeping it updated.
McDougall Designs wrote: Its the availability of printed models and printing service. Mantic has already said that subscribers can send the files to print services for printing, so long as the print services are ethical about it and don't market those items for wider sale.
Not everyone has a 3D printer.
Everyone has google and 20 seconds to find a print service local to them.
and 90% of the hobby community is budget conscious, leading them to the most inexpensive option: 3D prints of models that were otherwise available in conventional formats.
This is a negative to anyone who invested heavily in armada at its launch and has orc and basilean product sitting on shelves.
Have you actually looked at the cost of 3D printing services? For anything that isn't really low quality, you're going to be paying more than you would to just buy the miniature from Mantic.
If people were already not buying Armada, offering the models as STLs is unlikely to have much of a negative effect on those sales.
McDougall Designs wrote: Its the availability of printed models and printing service. Mantic has already said that subscribers can send the files to print services for printing, so long as the print services are ethical about it and don't market those items for wider sale.
Not everyone has a 3D printer.
Everyone has google and 20 seconds to find a print service local to them.
and 90% of the hobby community is budget conscious, leading them to the most inexpensive option: 3D prints of models that were otherwise available in conventional formats.
This is a negative to anyone who invested heavily in armada at its launch and has orc and basilean product sitting on shelves.
Have you actually looked at the cost of 3D printing services? For anything that isn't really low quality, you're going to be paying more than you would to just buy the miniature from Mantic.
If people were already not buying Armada, offering the models as STLs is unlikely to have much of a negative effect on those sales.
Yes, I have. I am one. I started at rates of $2.50 per infantry figure, with a little more for characters or more involved models, and discounted rates on multiples.
I used standard resin and reliable machines, though not top of the line. My subjective view of "miniature quality" may be different to yours.
I was inundated with orders and had to shut it down. I've spent most of a year cleaning it up.
Now I'm offering pre printed packs of bits, and a limited queue of custom printing. At slightly increased rates to account for more time supporting and the slight increase to resin costs that has been seen in that years time.
There are several good printing services serving North America I can recommend. I'm not to up to date on the European market.
"More than what you would pay for the mantic figure" is true only at the behest of mutable factors.
Thrilled to have the Impaler to mess around with, I really dig that sculpt ... but not that there's a critter trapped inside. Going to see if I can plate over the openings and hollow it out for printing
Upgrade Set coming to turn Tribesman into Huscarls
New Hero, Ambush, Army & Mega Army Set
New HIPS Ice-Kin Hunters & Berserker kit
HIPS Storm Rider Regiment (Dwarfs riding giant Ravens)
NA VS NS 2 Player Set is updated with the new models
Wow is right, those are absolutely great! Even better than the Oathmark Light Infantry elves. I can see kitbashing the ravens into Wood Elf "eagle" riders while the Ice Kin/Berserker kit looks excellent as-is. I'll be picking up some kits for kitbashing at the very least.
I might pick up that 2-player set and try Ambush out
Hm, they totally gave up on trying to design their miniatures to be actually put in regiments with individual bases, do they. You can see they're too dynamic to be used in anything other than multibasing.
A unit of 2 ravens is weird too. I suspect it will be a double kit like the halflings to make the production profitable.
Otherwise, they look passable enough. Mantic Games standard average quality, as usual.
I like the giant ravens, but the tall-rocks-so-we-don't-have-to-include-flight-stands thing isn't doing it for me. I thought Mantic had finally gotten over their aversion to doing proper, clear flight stands. I'm never a fan of miniatures having built-in contextual scenery that will look out of place in different environments.
I could see getting one to kitbash on to a flight stand, though, should inspiration strike, and depending on how many feathers I'd have to resculpt on the bottom. Giant raven-riders are a great idea, and would work well with a variety of archetypes. Orcs? Sure. Vikings? Sure. Tzeentch cultists? Sure. Undead necromancers? Sure. Edgar Allen Poe? Meta veering into tacky, but sure. Tengu? A little redundant, but what the hell, sure. Imperial Army? Um . . . sure?
Talking Banana wrote: I like the giant ravens, but the tall-rocks-so-we-don't-have-to-include-flight-stands thing isn't doing it for me. I thought Mantic had finally gotten over their aversion to doing proper, clear flight stands. I'm never a fan of miniatures having built-in contextual scenery that will look out of place in different environments.
I could see getting one to kitbash on to a flight stand, though, should inspiration strike, and depending on how many feathers I'd have to resculpt on the bottom. Giant raven-riders are a great idea, and would work well with a variety of archetypes. Orcs? Sure. Vikings? Sure. Tzeentch cultists? Sure. Undead necromancers? Sure. Edgar Allen Poe? Meta veering into tacky, but sure. Tengu? A little redundant, but what the hell, sure. Imperial Army? Um . . . sure?
Rocks are separate pieces according to Facebook Group.
well, mantic is proper and good flight stands for their SciFi Flyers/Skimmers
but I have to say I usually replace the clear ones that come by default with such models, either with a solid acrylic rod or scenic base
so for me this is rather positive than negative and the rocks are not part of the model but glued on so should be easy to magnetise or replaced with something different
Eilif wrote:I don't have my rulebook handy. Are those dwarves on birds already part of the northern Alliance army or a new addition?
new addition. they'll be showing up in the Dwarf lists too, when those get their refresh. the raven riders first showed up in Armada, along with the lore about the dwarfs domesticating the giant ravens of the the mountains they live in. according to the schedule discussed at the mantic open knight at adepticon, they'll eventually be getting a version for the imperial dwarfs, which i'd guess is going to be just different riders, since the Northern Alliance furs and plate style wouldn't fit the imperials.
Interesting. It's a long and unlikely shot but it would be cool if it made it's way into the Varrangur list, my army of choice.
probably not, as the Ravens are a dwarf thing, which means the Northern Alliance's dwarfs can get them, but the Varangur, which lack elves, dwarfs, etc, probably won't.
mithril2098 wrote: ... they'll eventually be getting a version for the imperial dwarfs, which i'd guess is going to be just different riders, since the Northern Alliance furs and plate style wouldn't fit the imperials.
My understanding is that they'll be a Free Dwarf thing and not in the imperial dwarf list.
Which makes more sense thematically; imperial dwarf are very much "traditional dwarfs".
I honestly don't want them in my dwarf list.
I'm super happy to see the ravens restricted to Northern Alliance and Free Dwarfs. Varangur and Imperial Dwarfs have a ton going for them already (and are far more popular as far as I can tell).
Really cool that Mantic made the supporting terrain separate on the ravens, good solution for the clear stand vs terrain debate. Here are the stats for the ravens for those who haven't watched the video (stolen from the KOW forum):
Boss Salvage wrote: I'm super happy to see the ravens restricted to Northern Alliance and Free Dwarfs. Varangur and Imperial Dwarfs have a ton going for them already (and are far more popular as far as I can tell).
Stupid question, but aren't regiments/hordes of Large Cav 3/6 models respectively? I just preordered two boxes, and then realized I might actually need three.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Stupid question, but aren't regiments/hordes of Large Cav 3/6 models respectively? I just preordered two boxes, and then realized I might actually need three.
Yes, that's correct. Not having seen or worked with the models, my guess is that with the wingspan, only two ravens will fit in the allotted space for a regiment.
I'll likely buy the Ambush set, since that gives a regiment of ravens and twenty half-elves. Since I do have some half-elves from Vanguard, splitting the new ones will give needed variety.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Stupid question, but aren't regiments/hordes of Large Cav 3/6 models respectively? I just preordered two boxes, and then realized I might actually need three.
well, Regiment are 150x50 and Hordes are 150x100 and how many models you put on that base is on you (with 2+ being the suggested amount for regiments)
and with the new Nightstalker release, Mantic announced to get away from single bases with their boxes and only adding the unit base while also working with the suggested amount of models for expensive kits (Resin Models and Monsters) to keep the game accessible
so if the box says this is a regiment you don't need more models unless you want more
I super love Mantic leaning into preferred model counts. After years in GW hell a company that treats me with respect means a lot more than slightly fancier models.
They don't. They'd rather have you buy the intended number of models, because they get more money that way.
Take it the other way : they're selling a box of 2 miniatures while it should be 3 for that same price.
Honestly, these are awfully designed for KoW. You can see they had to raise the base on the multibase so that the wings don't get in the way of each other. Moreover, you can also notice it will be a pain in the ass to put these regiments close to each other because of the wingspan again. That's the reason they show them on a multibase of 2 : because they fethed it up and they had no other choice to make it not look bad.
The rest of your post also applies to literally every WHFB model made after 1998 or so, so whatever.
Yeah. At least GW was honest enough to aknowledge their old base sizes weren't appropriate anymore for their miniatures and change it for The Old World. Mantic Games is stuck with their copied-pasted base size from Warhammer Battle for their KoW game. Maybe they'll follow GW's stance if TOW turns out popular enough.
Because let's face it, Mantic Games miniatures aren't 28mm anymore as well, and they clearly want to add more dynamic poses so that it doesn't get boring. Sadly, dynamic poses aren't compatible with regimental units, especially if the bases are too small.
I don't know what you are doing but I don't see the Mantic models not fitting on 100x80 mm base
so if your dynamic models don't fit the regiment base I guess you are not basing them for Kings of War
Sarouan wrote:
Because let's face it, Mantic Games miniatures aren't 28mm anymore as well, and they clearly want to add more dynamic poses so that it doesn't get boring. Sadly, dynamic poses aren't compatible with regimental units, especially if the bases are too small.
If only KoW used fixed unit sizes so that players could put units on multi-bases.
Potentially even having fewer models that the unit size on multi-bases, to allow for dynamic models, dioramas and bigger models.
I would be great it Mantic then acknowledged that in their rules and gave guidelines for a "Preferred Model Count" or something like that. /s
Mantic could then lean into it and have a bit of a "rule of cool" philosophy when designing models.
Which is what Ronnie has said in an interview.
kodos wrote: I don't know what you are doing but I don't see the Mantic models not fitting on 100x80 mm base
so if your dynamic models don't fit the regiment base I guess you are not basing them for Kings of War
Well, look at these ravens. Then try to put three regiments with even 2 miniatures on multibases like the picture next to each other on the same line without a wing getting in the way of another. Because that's a situation that can happen easily in game, you know.
That's what I'm talking about MG having badly designed these miniatures for KoW.
But yeah, you can always find a way to use them properly. I guess you could also just put one miniature on the multibase and get away with it. Though for me, it's not worth the money if I have to fix their own deficiency while I still paid them for the unit.
If only KoW used fixed unit sizes so that players could put units on multi-bases.
Potentially even having fewer models that the unit size on multi-bases, to allow for dynamic models, dioramas and bigger models.
I would be great it Mantic then acknowledged that in their rules and gave guidelines for a "Preferred Model Count" or something like that. /s
Mantic could then lean into it and have a bit of a "rule of cool" philosophy when designing models.
Which is what Ronnie has said in an interview.
Yeah, I get your sarcasm. Thing is, multibasing is always the easy excuse by MG fans for any of their own mistakes with miniature designs.
Except here, it doesn't work that well. See what I wrote just above.
As for the Rule of Cool, I don't mind it as long as it doesn't get in the way of the game practicality. If units even on multibases have some parts that touch each other and make position on the battlefield awkward...that's what I call bad design. It should be noticed and reported early on by people who play the game...well, if they care or have the time / money to do so.
Yeah, I know, they're a "small company". It shouldn't be the excuse for everything as well, IMHO.
Yeah, not like mutlibasing was in the rules since 1st edition
just because there is a side not for basing to make it compatible with models based for other rules, like every historical game is doing, does not mean that there was every anything else in the rules than the unit base
if you based for another gaming system and now have a problem that those models don't work with that system, it is your problem and yours alone
Well, look at these ravens. Then try to put three regiments with even 2 miniatures on multibases like the picture next to each other on the same line without a wing getting in the way of another. Because that's a situation that can happen easily in game, you know.
That's what I'm talking about MG having badly designed these miniatures for KoW.
I have done this with other models, never run into a problem as using PMC allows you to arrange the models on the base
you know, you don't need to put them all symmetrical and identical on all units
I have worked with GW models and their wings and it never was a problem to get regiments ranked up in line or base contact for a charge
and I don't see a problem here either with those tiny wings
I have a feeling you didn't go around WHFB threads cicra 2014 raging at how a Thundertusk sticks out from his base and how it's impossible to put 3 of them in a conga line.
These Ravens were at least designed to be high enough to melee a regular unit without clipping through so it's already better than every GW model.
Always some GW fanboy in here to slag of mantics new release.
The ravens look cool and have some nice design features, such as the option to clear flight stand or plastic rock formation.
The new half elves are a great step up from the limited poses of the previous models. I think it’s time to take all the models I got in the vanguard Kickstarter and buy a new army box and start my third KoW army properly.
Ravens are brilliant, I like how you end up with a couple of spare dwarf models in each set, as well as loads of spare pieces.
Here's a quick savings breakdown for the various sets to help people with their purchasing decisions, as usual the 2-player starters and ambush sets tend to be the way to go.
I always go for 2-player starters since I love having spare rulebooks to give away to anyone interested, especially once they hear it has all the army lists in there as well.
The mega army isn't bad if you want everything in there, but the army set is probably a miss unless you really want an iceblade instead of taking the easy route of converting one from a berserker.
2-player Ice & Shadow set: £145 of minis (comes to £180 value with rulebook) for £85 (42% savings, 53% if you count the rulebook)
there are 2 identical sprues in the box with enough bits to make 2 different ravens (2 different stone bases, 2 sets of wings, 2 heads for the raven, 2 dwarf bodies, 3(?) heads for the dwarfs, 2 set of weapons)
kodos wrote: I don't know what you are doing but I don't see the Mantic models not fitting on 100x80 mm base
so if your dynamic models don't fit the regiment base I guess you are not basing them for Kings of War
Well, look at these ravens. Then try to put three regiments with even 2 miniatures on multibases like the picture next to each other on the same line without a wing getting in the way of another. Because that's a situation that can happen easily in game, you know.
That's what I'm talking about MG having badly designed these miniatures for KoW.
But yeah, you can always find a way to use them properly. I guess you could also just put one miniature on the multibase and get away with it. Though for me, it's not worth the money if I have to fix their own deficiency while I still paid them for the unit.
This is a non-existent issue. Why not just use a higher flying stand, or craft one yourself? They are flying models, and a hobbyist willing to build and paint a unit is probably willing to do some work to make one of the ravens higher off the base. In fact, I think I will do an article on this type of minor conversion when these arrive to my store.
If only KoW used fixed unit sizes so that players could put units on multi-bases.
Potentially even having fewer models that the unit size on multi-bases, to allow for dynamic models, dioramas and bigger models.
I would be great it Mantic then acknowledged that in their rules and gave guidelines for a "Preferred Model Count" or something like that. /s
Mantic could then lean into it and have a bit of a "rule of cool" philosophy when designing models.
Which is what Ronnie has said in an interview.
Yeah, I get your sarcasm. Thing is, multibasing is always the easy excuse by MG fans for any of their own mistakes with miniature designs. You say its an excuse. I'm not one to always defend mantic games (many of their newer sculpts have had issues to my mind) however I would argue that mutli-basing is honestly one of the stand out hobby-related Strengths of the ruleset.
Freedom of modeling, without the constraint of needing each and every miniature on a base. You could make each unit a small-scale diorama and it would be absolutley fine and legal for gameplay purposes.
Except here, it doesn't work that well. See what I wrote just above. See my above comment about raising the flight base.
As for the Rule of Cool, I don't mind it as long as it doesn't get in the way of the game practicality. If units even on multibases have some parts that touch each other and make position on the battlefield awkward...that's what I call bad design. It should be noticed and reported early on by people who play the game...well, if they care or have the time / money to do so.
Yeah, I know, they're a "small company". It shouldn't be the excuse for everything as well, IMHO.
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scarletsquig wrote: Ravens are brilliant, I like how you end up with a couple of spare dwarf models in each set, as well as loads of spare pieces.
Here's a quick savings breakdown for the various sets to help people with their purchasing decisions, as usual the 2-player starters and ambush sets tend to be the way to go.
I always go for 2-player starters since I love having spare rulebooks to give away to anyone interested, especially once they hear it has all the army lists in there as well.
The mega army isn't bad if you want everything in there, but the army set is probably a miss unless you really want an iceblade instead of taking the easy route of converting one from a berserker.
2-player Ice & Shadow set: £145 of minis (comes to £180 value with rulebook) for £85 (42% savings, 53% if you count the rulebook)
Ambush: £45 of minis for £35 (23% saving)
Mega Army: £140 of minis for £115 (18% saving)
Army: £80 of minis for £75 (6% saving)
I've also posted kit-level prices at my usual discounts in my thread.
Now that I have seen the sprues, I know these will be easy to split into sprue-packs. Which is nice.
So if you really want that third raven, to rise above the other 2 perhaps, there will at least be an option in the US for you to get it.
This is a non-existent issue. Why not just use a higher flying stand, or craft one yourself? They are flying models, and a hobbyist willing to build and paint a unit is probably willing to do some work to make one of the ravens higher off the base. In fact, I think I will do an article on this type of minor conversion when these arrive to my store.
I know, I myself have a lot of experience modeling and converting plastic miniatures with external material. That's not the issue.
What I'm talking about here is design by the miniature designers at Mantic Games. Because these miniatures are made for a specific game in mind, their own - with the rules they wrote themselves. To me, it should be obvious when you both make the game and the miniatures for it, you have complete control about the practicality of said miniatures in said game. That they made miniatures that aren't designed to be use the way they are intended in the rules - meaning forcing people to use other ways to fit the normal number of models per unit category on their base - is exactly what I'm pointing at.
Of course people will always find a way to use these miniatures the way they like. But not all of them are hobbyists loving to convert models with additionnal material.
That the only defense here is pointing at those as an answer should be the real question about how Mantic Games design their miniatures at the start of their process. Apparently game practicality isn't their main concern, that's all I'm seeing with these recent new kits.
But it's all right. The sprue itself is looking nice and all. It looks decent enough. And there will be indeed people like you giving offers for some liking to have 3 ravens in their troop unit.
It's just sad it could have been better with an appropriate focus on how the game works, that's all. Well, it's Mantic Games. "Good enough" is what they do.
and if you cannot fit 3 ravens next to each other needs proof as just from the picture I would say you can
Without converting / using another flying base, I seriously doubt it - even if you put wings in an oblique position. And that will not be the only problem : wingspan can also get in the way of side units like I said before.
With a horde, maybe it would easier to put the intended number because you have more space in depth of the unit. At least 5 should be doable, IMHO.
But you're right, it would be an interesting idea to try. If some did, please feel free to put the pictures of your result if you can (and want).
It is nice that you finally not insist any more that the game is designed on using single bases 2 models is the normal amount for a regiment here
Note that they do only that for the ravens, not the half-elf. Which is telling to me more about how they didn't design the ravens to work with intended model. The question is : did they design this way from the start or is it just an accident because they didn't think about it and "fixed it" with the picture ? That, only Mantic Games knows.
Hmmm yes the models that have 3" of ground clearance specifically so they can fit base to base with any non-flier unit are not designed with gameplay in mind.
lord_blackfang wrote: Hmmm yes the models that have 3" of ground clearance specifically so they can fit base to base with any non-flier unit are not designed with gameplay in mind.
Of course, what you say only apply to human-size models (even so, not all...depends also of their poses, like those with high weapons raised up), unlike cavalry and monstruous infantry that do tend to be more than 3' tall. That obviously includes other units of the same ravens.
That's why pictures of the actual unit of 3 Ravens will be helpful to illustrate the reality in game.
This is a non-existent issue. Why not just use a higher flying stand, or craft one yourself? They are flying models, and a hobbyist willing to build and paint a unit is probably willing to do some work to make one of the ravens higher off the base. In fact, I think I will do an article on this type of minor conversion when these arrive to my store.
I know, I myself have a lot of experience modeling and converting plastic miniatures with external material. That's not the issue.
What I'm talking about here is design by the miniature designers at Mantic Games. Because these miniatures are made for a specific game in mind, their own - with the rules they wrote themselves. To me, it should be obvious when you both make the game and the miniatures for it, you have complete control about the practicality of said miniatures in said game. That they made miniatures that aren't designed to be use the way they are intended in the rules - meaning forcing people to use other ways to fit the normal number of models per unit category on their base - is exactly what I'm pointing at.
Of course people will always find a way to use these miniatures the way they like. But not all of them are hobbyists loving to convert models with additionnal material.
That the only defense here is pointing at those as an answer should be the real question about how Mantic Games design their miniatures at the start of their process. Apparently game practicality isn't their main concern, that's all I'm seeing with these recent new kits.
But it's all right. The sprue itself is looking nice and all. It looks decent enough. And there will be indeed people like you giving offers for some liking to have 3 ravens in their troop unit.
It's just sad it could have been better with an appropriate focus on how the game works, that's all. Well, it's Mantic Games. "Good enough" is what they do.
They are designed as a 2 model unit, if I'm reading the promotional material correctly. If so, your concern is moot as the unit size is correct as intended by the manufacturer.
It goes against previously established design protocol of large units being in 3's, but thats nothing that can't be fixed and made impressive with some modeling work and either a brass rod or clever terrain build up.
It was a flimsy pretext to gak on Mantic so it was grabbed with both hands. Nobody tell him other companies also change the number of models in a unit sometimes and it doesn't mean they're "unfocused on the practicalities of their game" or whatever other crap we're spewing today.
Doing the exact opposite thing can also attract criticism.
E.g. 40k 10th datasheets which now exactly match the quantity and composition of the miniatures sold in the boxes.
I have a feeling that PMC guidelines will be loosened in 4th, they only ever were in place for specific tournaments which Mantic themselves ran, and even then only to receive prize support in the event of a win, never as an entry requirement (you can still use an all GW army, turn up and win at a Mantic tournament).
For those of us playing the game it's a total non-issue, most people still use 12 or so minis on the base instead of 20 and it's fine.
I'm guessing it's either the historical reason that it's Mantic's first-ish boardgame, or that the game is there to support *Mantic's* existing fantasy line. 
