Great stuff. I've been advocating for plastic ogres for a long time now, one sprue can cover a lot of units and it makes them the most beginner-friendly army in models as well as rules.
This is great news.
I didn't buy the most recent Clash of Kings, I was just researching options for siege battles for our campaign that starts next week and I don't care a whit for Mantic Fluff.
The new Ogres look nice. About time Mantic addressed the amount of books needed to carry to play the game.
Also the rules as they are now seem to work at 1,000pts and 3,000pts+. Not sure what changes they are going to make for those scales, may be no Hordes in 1,000pts? That is the only thing I can think of.
Still not enough to get me excited about KoW. I may play the odd game here and there, but I highly doubt I'll be buying any more rules for KoW... well, unless the nerve test changes to 2D3 (2D6 is far too swingy), instead of double/triple attacks make it double/triple amount of damage (speed ups the game and has more or less the same end result).
stonehorse wrote: The new Ogres look nice. About time Mantic addressed the amount of books needed to carry to play the game.
Also the rules as they are now seem to work at 1,000pts and 3,000pts+. Not sure what changes they are going to make for those scales, may be no Hordes in 1,000pts? That is the only thing I can think of.
Still not enough to get me excited about KoW. I may play the odd game here and there, but I highly doubt I'll be buying any more rules for KoW... well, unless the nerve test changes to 2D3 (2D6 is far too swingy), instead of double/triple attacks make it double/triple amount of damage (speed ups the game and has more or less the same end result).
Interesting observations/suggestions. Are those really what's keeping you from playing KoW? They seem like relatively minor issues and not at all gamebreaking. 2x/3x attacks is a pretty small thing. I haven't found the current nerve test roll to be too swingy unless you're really counting on a particular unit to stick around.
Ogres look great, very happy to see some 1k point specific rules as the game doesn't quite work at that points level due to skew builds being very easy (3 dragons, etc.)
stonehorse wrote: The new Ogres look nice. About time Mantic addressed the amount of books needed to carry to play the game.
Also the rules as they are now seem to work at 1,000pts and 3,000pts+. Not sure what changes they are going to make for those scales, may be no Hordes in 1,000pts? That is the only thing I can think of.
Still not enough to get me excited about KoW. I may play the odd game here and there, but I highly doubt I'll be buying any more rules for KoW... well, unless the nerve test changes to 2D3 (2D6 is far too swingy), instead of double/triple attacks make it double/triple amount of damage (speed ups the game and has more or less the same end result).
Interesting observations/suggestions. Are those really what's keeping you from playing KoW? They seem like relatively minor issues and not at all gamebreaking. 2x/3x attacks is a pretty small thing. I haven't found the current nerve test roll to be too swingy unless you're really counting on a particular unit to stick around.
Not the main things, but they add to my other issues to make the game bad in my view, if you want my full here it is. Edit, changing the two points mentioned earlier may make the game a bit better however.
stonehorse wrote: The new Ogres look nice. About time Mantic addressed the amount of books needed to carry to play the game.
Also the rules as they are now seem to work at 1,000pts and 3,000pts+. Not sure what changes they are going to make for those scales, may be no Hordes in 1,000pts? That is the only thing I can think of.
Still not enough to get me excited about KoW. I may play the odd game here and there, but I highly doubt I'll be buying any more rules for KoW... well, unless the nerve test changes to 2D3 (2D6 is far too swingy), instead of double/triple attacks make it double/triple amount of damage (speed ups the game and has more or less the same end result).
Interesting observations/suggestions. Are those really what's keeping you from playing KoW? They seem like relatively minor issues and not at all gamebreaking. 2x/3x attacks is a pretty small thing. I haven't found the current nerve test roll to be too swingy unless you're really counting on a particular unit to stick around.
Not the main things, but they add to my other issues to make the game bad in my view, if you want my full here it is. Edit, changing the two points mentioned earlier may make the game a bit better however.
Sorry, but I don't have 25 minutes to dedicate to watching a review, but if your points are summarized in a blog or post somewhere, I'd be happy to read them.
I really enjoy the KoW rules but I'm genuinely interested in reading contrasting opinions.
Do we know if the Uncharted Empires lists will be in the new book, or will they remain separate?
Edit: Nevermind, it's right there on the preorder page:
This Book contains all the rules from the Third Edition Rulebook, Uncharted Empires and the changes introduced in Clash of Kings 2022. It also includes all the updates and erratas for those books and combines them into one tome.
While I don't really care about tiny games or siege games or fantasy apocalypse games, I appreciate that they're making these rules available for those who do. Worth noting that they preview the clarification on 'shortest distance' for charges (it's the one that has the fewest degrees of pivot, I believe) and the changes to Host Shadowbeast, which IMO are awesome both from a balance standpoint and giving milksop casters some potential combat punch.
And, if I already have Uncharted Empires and CoK 2022, the only new stuff is tweaks?
Just want to make sure I don't miss out picking it up if it has something new in it, but it seems like (a great) compilation only.
No background, all rules and army lists (apart from TK) plus the updates from Clash of Kings for this year. Plus three new gaming modes - siege, ambush, legendary battles.
That sucks. Were there any of the usual hints like a 6+ months long absence of new books to indicate an edition change? I have no idea if that applies to Mantic' s release schedule personally.
There's no edition change, this is the usual yearly update except this time it's a reprint of the full rulebook instead of a "Chapter Approved" book of updates.
stonehorse wrote: The new Ogres look nice. About time Mantic addressed the amount of books needed to carry to play the game.
Also the rules as they are now seem to work at 1,000pts and 3,000pts+. Not sure what changes they are going to make for those scales, may be no Hordes in 1,000pts? That is the only thing I can think of.
Still not enough to get me excited about KoW. I may play the odd game here and there, but I highly doubt I'll be buying any more rules for KoW... well, unless the nerve test changes to 2D3 (2D6 is far too swingy), instead of double/triple attacks make it double/triple amount of damage (speed ups the game and has more or less the same end result).
Interesting observations/suggestions. Are those really what's keeping you from playing KoW? They seem like relatively minor issues and not at all gamebreaking. 2x/3x attacks is a pretty small thing. I haven't found the current nerve test roll to be too swingy unless you're really counting on a particular unit to stick around.
Not the main things, but they add to my other issues to make the game bad in my view, if you want my full here it is. Edit, changing the two points mentioned earlier may make the game a bit better however.
Sorry, but I don't have 25 minutes to dedicate to watching a review, but if your points are summarized in a blog or post somewhere, I'd be happy to read them.
I really enjoy the KoW rules but I'm genuinely interested in reading contrasting opinions.
Fair enough.
Not so much a blog, but I can do a quick bullet point.
• Units combat effectiveness doesn't degrade as they take damage, a unit that has been heavily battered fights just as well as a fresh undamaged unit.
• Unit pivoting on a central point, while easier for game play does present some odd visuals... highlighted with Hordes of Cavalry. Horses would really struggle to move like that!
• Unit footprints mean that units are very inflexible. This can result in units not being able to engage an enemy unit that they could if the unit could slightly reform.
• Units live or die by the nerve roll, this is where the real 'damage' resides. Do 1 point of damage and roll very high and that can see a unit removed or wavering. The opposite is true do a phenomenal amount of damage and roll very poor the unit still remains, and may even be unfazed by your attack.
But the main issue is this:
• The game has zero player interaction, when it is your turn... it is your turn and your opponent may as well not be there. This makes combat a little bit dull. As there is no risk/reward, no uncertainty of how the combat is going to play out. In WFB for example combat was a back and forth thing, a charging unit wasn't guaranteed victory, it made the uncertainty of combat exciting.
KoW is good for tournament play I imagine, for Rank & File games I'm more a casual/narrative focused gamer.
Not so much a blog, but I can do a quick bullet point.
• Units combat effectiveness doesn't degrade as they take damage, a unit that has been heavily battered fights just as well as a fresh undamaged unit.
• Unit pivoting on a central point, while easier for game play does present some odd visuals... highlighted with Hordes of Cavalry. Horses would really struggle to move like that!
• Unit footprints mean that units are very inflexible. This can result in units not being able to engage an enemy unit that they could if the unit could slightly reform.
• Units live or die by the nerve roll, this is where the real 'damage' resides. Do 1 point of damage and roll very high and that can see a unit removed or wavering. The opposite is true do a phenomenal amount of damage and roll very poor the unit still remains, and may even be unfazed by your attack.
But the main issue is this:
• The game has zero player interaction, when it is your turn... it is your turn and your opponent may as well not be there. This makes combat a little bit dull. As there is no risk/reward, no uncertainty of how the combat is going to play out. In WFB for example combat was a back and forth thing, a charging unit wasn't guaranteed victory, it made the uncertainty of combat exciting.
KoW is good for tournament play I imagine, for Rank & File games I'm more a casual/narrative focused gamer.
Thanks for that. I appreciate the summary.
As It happens, I'm also a casual, narrative player, but I put a premium on ease and speed of play so that may account for much of what follows. By way of comparison, Song of Blades and Heroes and Dragon Rampant are my other fantasy gameswhich may help explain what why when it comes to big battles I embrace many of the aspects that you find unappealing.
Your points are mostly what I expected. The common -and completely valid- reasons Kings of War is not the flavor of game for many folks. Many of them are inherent to -or at least in service of- the rather single minded drive of the games authors towards quick play, streamlined rules and clarity which -as you rightly point out- does sacrifice flexibility and realism. One notable aspect that plays into several of your complaints is that, regardless of how the players base their miniatures, KoW is an element-based game system like HoTT or DBA with inflexible unit footprint sizes and no casualty removal.
I've already started how I haven't found the Nerve/Break test to feel overly swingy in practice. Further, I actually appreciate how it pushes damage and morale into one roll, but I can completely see how some good might not like it, especially since unit degradation has been almost completely removed from the game.
As for your main point, perhaps it's experiential, but the lack of interaction coming from a strict IGOUGO system just hasn't seemed like much of a drawback for myself and those who seen to enjoy the game. Admittedly, at our group we often have the owning player roll the nerve tests (which further speeds up play) but KoW is such a fast-playing game that between informing your opponent of your defense stat, answering other stat inquiries and planning your next moves, there just didn't seem to be an excessive amount of downtime for the non-active player.
Again, none of this to convince you that KOW is the game for you and the many other players who prefer more realism/interaction/reaction/flexibility/detail/etc. Just a little pushback to suggest that many folks don't find the points you raise to be a big deal and may even see them as positive features in as much as they streamline and simplify play.
lord_blackfang wrote: There's no edition change, this is the usual yearly update except this time it's a reprint of the full rulebook instead of a "Chapter Approved" book of updates.
Thanks for clarifying. Hopefully that'll lesson the sting a bit for those who bought books recently.
Thanks for that. I appreciate the summary. As It happens, I'm also a casual, narrative player, but I put a premium on ease and speed of play. By way of comparison, Song of Blades and Heroes and Dragon Rampant are my other fantasy games. That may help explain what why when it comes to big battles I embrace many of the aspects that you find unappealing.
Your points are mostly what I expected. The common -and completely valid- reasons Kings of War is not the flavor of game for many folks.
Many of them are inherent to, or at least in service of- the rather single minded drive of the game towards quick play, streamlined rules and clarity which -as you tightly point out- does sacrifice flexibility and realism.
I've already started how I haven't found the Nerve/Break test to feel overly swingy in practice. I actually appreciate how it pushes damage and morale into one mechanic, but I can completely see how some good might not like it , especially since unit degradation has been almost completely removed from the game.
As for your main point, perhaps it's experiential, but the lack of interaction coming from a strict IGOUGO system just hasn't seemed like much of a drawback for myself and those who seen to enjoy the game.
Admittedly, at our group we often have the owning player roll the nerve tests (which further speeds up play) but KoW is such a fast-playing game that between informing your opponent of your defense stat, answering other stat inquiries and planning your next moves, there just didn't seem to be an excessive amount of downtime for the non-active player.
Again, none of this to convince you that KOW is the game for you and the many other players who prefer more realism/interaction/reaction/flexibility/detail/etc. Just a little pushback to suggest that many folks don't find the points you raise to be a big deal and we may even see then as features in as much as they streamline and simplify play.
I'm also a big fan of Dragon Rampant, that game gets a lot if things right I think.
Another game that is quick to play, is streamlined, and is simple to learn is Age of Fantasy Regiments by One Page Rules. Also a free game that is entirely model agnostic.
I used to be a big fan of KoW, it was my bread and butter when it first came out way back in 2009/10. Just as time has marched on I have found there are other games that do what it set out to do (quick, easy to learn/play mass combat rank & File game). That and my group have gone back to playing WFB 6th edition, which was peak Warhammer.
I'm also a big fan of Dragon Rampant, that game gets a lot if things right I think.
Another game that is quick to play, is streamlined, and is simple to learn is Age of Fantasy Regiments by One Page Rules. Also a free game that is entirely model agnostic.
I used to be a big fan of KoW, it was my bread and butter when it first came out way back in 2009/10. Just as time has marched onI have found their are other games that do what it set out to do (quick, easy to learn/play mass combat rank & File game). That and my group have gone back yo playing g WFB 6th edition, which was peak Warhammer.
If you're a narrative player that doesn't mind crunch, then I can see where 6th edition Warhammer would be quite appealing. It's an incredibly flavorful game. I am occasionally tempted by 6th Ed WHFB and I draw my fluff and many of my minis from there and earlier. (Mantic fluff is middling at best) However, a quick flip through that big beautiful rulebook always squashes any desire to actually play it. I do frequently hit that era of the game for scenario ideas however. Our last KoW battle was a Chaos and Ogre refight of the Battle of La Maisontaal abbey and our KoW campaign that starts on Monday is set in the borderlands of the Old World.
I also discovered KoW in it's first edition and though I only played a few games before 2nd, it appealed to me right away and hasn't let up. Age of Fantasy Regiments (and regular Age of Fantasy) is a game that I do hope to try at some point. There's a slim chance it could be a KoW killer. My son and I play Grimdark future and it completely scratches my 40k itch without the layers of rules that I grew sick of 4 editions ago.
lord_blackfang wrote: There's no edition change, this is the usual yearly update except this time it's a reprint of the full rulebook instead of a "Chapter Approved" book of updates.
Thanks for clarifying. Hopefully that'll lesson the sting a bit for those who bought books recently.
I think this is a bit of a consolidating and money-saving move for Mantic. Unless you're charging GW prices and selling GW-amounts of product, a reprint of a big-hardbound rulebook isn't necessarily a big money maker. No company wants to be stuck with alot of unsold stock and retailers are wary of carrying the back catalogs of non-GW ranges in many cases. My assumption is that rather than reprinting the same rulebook and another supplement -both books that some players might not buy- they moved to produce one big rulebook that most players probably will buy and will be more appealing to retailers.
I am mildly annoyed to be buying another big rule book, but knowing that the core rules aren't changing (so I can lend/sell/give my current rulebook) and that clarifications, new army lists, new-and-old CoC material and siege and skirmish rules are being included makes me more willing to pony up for another book even with a 5 buck price hike. I definitely like having one book with no fluff (we KoW in the Old World anyway) rather than several rulebooks.
I will say though that if I wasn't exited by the prospect of new siege rules, I might just stick with the books I've got. New armies are unnecessary to me, updated stats and costs for units are already in easy army and though I appreciated Mantic's stabs at thematic scenarios in CoK books, I've already got a good number of them and a ridiculous number of great options from old warhammer books.
adamsouza wrote: Looks at the 10+ Kings of War rulesbooks I've aquired over the last 2 months......
"YAY" a new rulebook that replaces all those...
I'm here for it. I unironically love giving Mantic money for books, as I really struggle to give them money for their minis I'm also pumped to have a gamer edition rulebook - I picked the BGB up on release and can't be fethed to lug that thing around.
I'm guessing we'll be paying about double what we'd normally pay for a CoK anyway, and for that extra 15€-ish you get the convenience of having to carry 1 book rather than 2-3 (until CoK 2024). I'll take it any day. Plus I'm interested in what they do with the <1000 and >3000 games, even though the core game handles it just fine already.
A new book for the book lord. No background, because who cares about Mantica background.
I'm fine with staying with previous rules, since I don't care for KoW tournaments and whatever balancing they're trying to justify the new CoK each time. It's all UK centered now, anyway.
Fans will be fans, and I will keep pointing at their similarities with GW. They can keep trying to look different, but they were always the same.
The background as fleshed out in their novels is pretty good so far. I am still waiting for the RPG to hit retail at some point so I can dive deeply into the fluff.
adamsouza wrote: Looks at the 10+ Kings of War rulesbooks I've aquired over the last 2 months......
"YAY" a new rulebook that replaces all those...
I'm here for it. I unironically love giving Mantic money for books, as I really struggle to give them money for their minis I'm also pumped to have a gamer edition rulebook - I picked the BGB up on release and can't be fethed to lug that thing around.
Honestly, I think the book is a great idea. Just sucks to that I didn't know about it a month ago.
Unrelated, looks like Twilight Kin
are getting a major rework
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The background as fleshed out in their novels is pretty good so far. I am still waiting for the RPG to hit retail at some point so I can dive deeply into the fluff.
I would not hold much hope for that RPG. It looks like it is dead judging from the KS comments.
Oooo proper Wyrmriders! Color me excited, they're just my type of unit - mediocre but functional, never seen on the table, and provide unlocks so you can base a dumb army around them - and Mantic has been doing work I like on the EOD line
New Ogre design is great, nicely matches the Vanguard heroes.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The background as fleshed out in their novels is pretty good so far. I am still waiting for the RPG to hit retail at some point so I can dive deeply into the fluff.
I would not hold much hope for that RPG. It looks like it is dead judging from the KS comments.
Well, crapbaskets.
Does anyone know which of the new books has the most new fluff? Or should I just wait for more novels?
Not so much a blog, but I can do a quick bullet point.
• Units combat effectiveness doesn't degrade as they take damage, a unit that has been heavily battered fights just as well as a fresh undamaged unit.
• Unit pivoting on a central point, while easier for game play does present some odd visuals... highlighted with Hordes of Cavalry. Horses would really struggle to move like that!
• Unit footprints mean that units are very inflexible. This can result in units not being able to engage an enemy unit that they could if the unit could slightly reform.
• Units live or die by the nerve roll, this is where the real 'damage' resides. Do 1 point of damage and roll very high and that can see a unit removed or wavering. The opposite is true do a phenomenal amount of damage and roll very poor the unit still remains, and may even be unfazed by your attack.
But the main issue is this:
• The game has zero player interaction, when it is your turn... it is your turn and your opponent may as well not be there. This makes combat a little bit dull. As there is no risk/reward, no uncertainty of how the combat is going to play out. In WFB for example combat was a back and forth thing, a charging unit wasn't guaranteed victory, it made the uncertainty of combat exciting.
KoW is good for tournament play I imagine, for Rank & File games I'm more a casual/narrative focused gamer.
Thanks for that. I appreciate the summary.
As It happens, I'm also a casual, narrative player, but I put a premium on ease and speed of play so that may account for much of what follows. By way of comparison, Song of Blades and Heroes and Dragon Rampant are my other fantasy gameswhich may help explain what why when it comes to big battles I embrace many of the aspects that you find unappealing.
Your points are mostly what I expected. The common -and completely valid- reasons Kings of War is not the flavor of game for many folks. Many of them are inherent to -or at least in service of- the rather single minded drive of the games authors towards quick play, streamlined rules and clarity which -as you rightly point out- does sacrifice flexibility and realism. One notable aspect that plays into several of your complaints is that, regardless of how the players base their miniatures, KoW is an element-based game system like HoTT or DBA with inflexible unit footprint sizes and no casualty removal.
I've already started how I haven't found the Nerve/Break test to feel overly swingy in practice. Further, I actually appreciate how it pushes damage and morale into one roll, but I can completely see how some good might not like it, especially since unit degradation has been almost completely removed from the game.
As for your main point, perhaps it's experiential, but the lack of interaction coming from a strict IGOUGO system just hasn't seemed like much of a drawback for myself and those who seen to enjoy the game. Admittedly, at our group we often have the owning player roll the nerve tests (which further speeds up play) but KoW is such a fast-playing game that between informing your opponent of your defense stat, answering other stat inquiries and planning your next moves, there just didn't seem to be an excessive amount of downtime for the non-active player.
Again, none of this to convince you that KOW is the game for you and the many other players who prefer more realism/interaction/reaction/flexibility/detail/etc. Just a little pushback to suggest that many folks don't find the points you raise to be a big deal and may even see them as positive features in as much as they streamline and simplify play.
Both opinions were interesting to read for me as I considered having a look at KoW. But it made me realize I'm very happy with Oathmark, maybe that's a game for stonehorse to look into? It seems to solve all the problems raised and is also very narrative focused, though people coming from Warhammer sometimes miss a couple of their beloved factions.
or did you mean the old ones? in which case i'd ask somebody else to chime in
Maybe someone can chime in. I put off buying any KOW books (other than the novels) because I was waiting for the RPG. If the RPG doesn’t happen, I’d like to know if there’s a book chock full of recent background material.
I haven’t been able to convince anyone to play the game KOW. Might be able to get my son to play Armada, if he gets tired of SOB and MTG.
or did you mean the old ones? in which case i'd ask somebody else to chime in
Maybe someone can chime in. I put off buying any KOW books (other than the novels) because I was waiting for the RPG. If the RPG doesn’t happen, I’d like to know if there’s a book chock full of recent background material.
I haven’t been able to convince anyone to play the game KOW. Might be able to get my son to play Armada, if he gets tired of SOB and MTG.
My understanding is that the lore will be released online, so it's probable you will not need to buy anything.
Failing that, the green 3rd edition rulebook is what you're looking for, it has loads of lore.
CoK 2022 has lore for the Halflings and Rift Forged orcs.
The new Ogres look like a nice update. When it comes to Ogres though I'm partial to an Oldhammer aesthetic, so I think the upcoming Landschnekt style Ogres from WGF may be for me.
New ogres look like upsized WoW orcs, with a mohawk.
I've seen better and...ah, true, it's Mantic Games we're talking about. Their miniatures are always average and 3d print market does way better for cheaper anyway.
Whatever. We'll judge by the price of their plastic boxes in the end, but I really don't expect anything much cheaper than current GW plastic ogres.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Maybe someone can chime in. I put off buying any KOW books (other than the novels) because I was waiting for the RPG. If the RPG doesn’t happen, I’d like to know if there’s a book chock full of recent background material.
the company making the RPG went out of business and Mantic cannot release anything they made until the case is closed
some people who were part of the team already working to get the material that was done together and try to make something from it
so there will be an RPG with additional background, it won't be that RPG from the KS and it will take some time
the current background from the KoW books will be available digital from Mantic, so there will be be a "book" full of recent background material
Eilif wrote: The new Ogres look like a nice update. When it comes to Ogres though I'm partial to an Oldhammer aesthetic, so I think the upcoming Landschnekt style Ogres from WGF may be for me.
Can you post a link to the previews? I looked on their website/store and these came up but I'm not sure if they're the ones you're talking about.
Eilif wrote: The new Ogres look like a nice update. When it comes to Ogres though I'm partial to an Oldhammer aesthetic, so I think the upcoming Landschnekt style Ogres from WGF may be for me.
Can you post a link to the previews? I looked on their website/store and these came up but I'm not sure if they're the ones you're talking about.
Eilif means Wargames Atlantic (wholly unrelated to WGF)
The new mantic ogres look good. I actually liked the old ogres. Despite the "this time we didnt skip leg day comment" I actually thought the leg design of the old ogres was fine. It definitely had its own style and kind of endeared me to them. In RPGs i actually used them as underfed ogres... but I do like the new ogres too.
The WGF ogres should be 12 to a box and from what was said the price should be the standard $36ish dollars.
Sarouan wrote: New ogres look like upsized WoW orcs, with a mohawk.
I've seen better and...ah, true, it's Mantic Games we're talking about. Their miniatures are always average and 3d print market does way better for cheaper anyway.
Whatever. We'll judge by the price of their plastic boxes in the end, but I really don't expect anything much cheaper than current GW plastic ogres.
Well, when you can get mantic from select retailers at 20% off as standard, the hit to the wallet is not as bad.
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bbb wrote: I really like the look of those ogres. Does anyone know the price and box contents?
12 to a box, standard price of Wargames atlantic kits is $35. Although these have not been announced for preorder/officially priced yet.
I'll have them at discount here in the shop, too if you are looking for better than retail.
So if you needed 10 years to realise that those are closer to WoW Orcs than current GW Ogres, and are closer to Half-Ogres from classic RPGs, I don't really know why it is now a problem and not in the past?
because you wanted GW Ogres for cheap rather than something different?
kodos wrote: looking at the GW Ogres over the years:
There are a couple generations of Ogre Kingdoms missing from that spread to either side of that Tyrant that help tell the story. FWIW I think GW's Ogres are pretty hit and miss, with some great characters, some terrible characters, some great monsters, and a mediocre aesthetic but smartly designed plastic kit doing the bulk of the lifting. I say this as a person with a painted chonky Mongolian Ogre army and more extra bits than I can give away. GW has gotten better and better at their Ogre design but I don't think it's the round boy design from 18 years ago or whatever.
If we're comparing Ogres here, for my money Mierce has the best, specifically in the Fomoraic line:
(There are several other Mierce lines that all have slightly different designs but not as appealing as these lads and their many variants.)
When it comes to more economical gaming pieces, I'd choose the new Mantic myself, unless they flub the plastic sprue design, which is a distinct possibility with them. It's got a good, tall look and has also been designed to use the same base across multiple units, with great heroes we've already seen from Vanguard.
for the plastic kit, I expect 3-6 bodies with various arms and heads in the kit (hand weapons, shields, two-handed weapons) and the rest being resin parts
kodos wrote: looking at the GW Ogres over the years:
There are a couple generations of Ogre Kingdoms missing from that spread to either side of that Tyrant that help tell the story. FWIW I think GW's Ogres are pretty hit and miss, with some great characters, some terrible characters, some great monsters, and a mediocre aesthetic but smartly designed plastic kit doing the bulk of the lifting.
Well the picture is the very same Ogre Heroe over the years, that are all models Golgfag ever got
and for the GW plastic kit, the Ogre Infantry is one of the worst model kits out there in my opinion and I have worked with the first gen pvc/plastic Warmachine/Hordes Ogres (which were expensive) and got the GW ones gifted for free from a friend (who bought into when they came out and just wanted to get rid of it)
lord_blackfang wrote: I wanted existing Mantic ogres in plastic. They have a very distinct silhouette and this isn't it.
kodos wrote: Well the picture is the very same Ogre Heroe over the years, that are all models Golgfag ever got
Ahhhhhhh I didn't recognize the first two as Ol' Golgy, in which case respect I thought we were talking about Citadel Ogres through the years and felt the lineup was rather slim
“Hang on again – I have just bought the big red book and I have a TK army – how can I play KoW now??” fear not, trusty imaginary reader – the wonderful rules committee had included the TK in all of their machinations and balancing earlier when working on the current book – so their stats will be updated in easy army and the Mantic App alongside all the other units, and you will squeeze another 3 to 6 months of play with the old emo elves version of TK. On March 31st they will be taken down from online army lists – so please bear this in mind when picking your army for 2023.
Anyone wiht a contact in the rules committee know if the list will be available as a PDF? I don't use the Mantic app or EasyArmy, and I'm probably not the only person on Earth who doesn't. Plus I do indeed wantto keep using my existing models, regardless of whether I create a new (possibly separate?) TK force or not....
I remember explaining to Luigi (sculptor) that ogres buy their armour one piece at a time. Each warrior earns their pay as a mercenary, then spends their hard-earned coin on outfitting themselves. This means there’s a variety of textures and designs present on each model – although they are kept cohesive. They carry forward the style of the original models and deigns, including little flourishes cast in the ogres’ own distinctive style.
One important update we wanted to make was to the ogres’ stature. The old models were a little too top-heavy, they’d had “skipped leg day”. Using the heroes sculpted for Vanguard as a base, we’ve done an update to the proportions to make them consistently bulky all around. Ogres should look and feel like living battering rams! We’ve also taken this opportunity to introduce some female ogres – based on the Matriarch model. They’re as stocky and well armoured as their male counterparts – perfect for any battlefield.
Let’s talk mechanical stuff. Each set of frames comes with six individual ogres, each of whom can be armed with either a hand weapon and shield, a two-handed weapon, or a blunderbuss (aka Boomer)*. Each one also has access to a wide variety of different heads. We’ve worked carefully so that the heads and arms from the old models will fit onto the new ones – if you have any spares or want to mix and match.
*The crossbows were left off because it’s difficult to efficiently tool them in hard plastic, but they will be coming later as a resin upgrade!
Ronnie has just got back from his trip to Poland and managed to smuggle back some delicious plastic goodness. So the moment you have all been waiting for. Here is the first look at the brand new Ogre miniatures…. Here we are showing some of the infantry build options and one half of the infantry sprue itself.
I did not expect to see Boomers on the same sprue! That's a good looking frame, especially if they're avoiding the weird unsculpted sides thing as Lord BF says.
there are not many who can do HIPS in Europe and only one I know is in Poland
so unless there is someone new, it is Archon doing the Mantic models now
having production again in Europe is good news and indeed bigger than a new Gamers Edition anthology or new Ogers as this removes a lot of problems (were the soft flanks from the casting process are just the obvious ones)
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: I enjoy the middle guy holding the axe only on the parts without any cloth wrapping.
He's allergic
Besides there not being any other manufacturer options besides Archon in Poland, their telltale sign is the part numbers with arrows.
Also note the sprue says Ogre Warriors (2 of 2) so it seems Mantic actually splurged for two different sprues of 3. Let's hope they don't repeat sculpts again.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: I enjoy the middle guy holding the axe only on the parts without any cloth wrapping.
He's allergic
Besides there not being any other manufacturer options besides Archon in Poland, their telltale sign is the part numbers with arrows.
Also note the sprue says Ogre Warriors (2 of 2) so it seems Mantic actually splurged for two different sprues of 3. Let's hope they don't repeat sculpts again.
'Six individual ogres' suggests...six individual ogres. like each being different to the next.
the quoted text says there are 2 sprues with 6 different bodies and as none of the heads from the painted ones match the ones on the shown sprue, I guess not only the bodies are unique
so 6 different bodies, 8 different heads, and I hope for 6 different sets of weapons
Yeah, I'm in. Archon's quality has continued to improve in terms of layouts and attachment points as well, so that's a really positive sign in my eyes.
The ogres look good from a technical standpoint. I won't repeat some of the earlier critiques of the style (which I somewhat agree with) but they achieved what they were looking to do in plastic IMO.
Those aren't bad. The style is nicely contemporary reflecting video game style as much as previous miniature wargames. More of the chunky detail we've come to expect from Mantic (hair sculpting so thick it looks like they've all got locs, though maybe that was intentional?...). The aesthetic lack of finer detail will turn some folks off but having a style that maybe appealing to younger players with figures that will paint up quick and easy could be a good thing.
Overall, a step in the right direction in terms of design and flexibility and meeting -if not necessarily exceeding- expectations for Mantic miniatures.
Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't really matter as either way, the figures as a whole are an example of the extra-chunky detail that will be polarizing for some folks. I generally do prefer a bit more fine detail, but overall I don't mind it as I'm currently painting up a Kindoms of Men army made of Runewars Daqan Humans who are a very similar somewhat WoW'ish aesthetic and sculpting style, albeit in an armored human knight faction. If I needed a Monstrous/Large infantry unit I might consider buying these, though the army already has Rune Golems so that aspect is well attended to.
On the other hand, I do want to add a unit of Mercenary Ogres for use in a couple different armies but for that purpose I'll be going with the WGA Ogres that have a landsknecht look and more traditional sculpt style that isn't quite so wedded to the WoW aesthetic of Runewars and Mantic.
That would be pretty darn cool. I appreciate this trend toward female wargaming figures that aren't chainmail bikini types. Bad Squiddo, Victoria, Wargames Atlantic and North Star are notable examples and my wife and I were really pleased that when we play Heroquest with my son and daughter there are male and female versions of the heroes and baddies all looking equally tough well equipped.
Master Crafted made a review battle report for Ambush
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lord_blackfang wrote:I've heard on FB that the other sprue is all women.
Looks like the 3 painted examples are the 3 female ones
scarletsquig wrote:Ronnie mentioned on facebook that the switch to a Polish manufacturer has been made for quality reasons.
Concerns were heard, listened to and acted on!
now it would be nice if the next patch for existing models would be made in Poland too
I love the texture on the Ogre leg armor.
Hoping the 3d print lines aren't as obvious on the plastic casts as they are in the close-up photos.
(I am assuming the painted are 3d prints).
kodos wrote: Master Crafted made a review battle report for Ambush
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lord_blackfang wrote:I've heard on FB that the other sprue is all women.
Looks like the 3 painted examples are the 3 female ones
scarletsquig wrote:Ronnie mentioned on facebook that the switch to a Polish manufacturer has been made for quality reasons.
Concerns were heard, listened to and acted on!
now it would be nice if the next patch for existing models would be made in Poland too
Having the next batch of existing minis run in Poland would do nothing substantial to the detail. They would have to resculpt, and at the very least re-engineer the sprues if indeed there is detail on the master models that their older process was smoothing/flattening out.
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skrulnik wrote: I love the texture on the Ogre leg armor.
Hoping the 3d print lines aren't as obvious on the plastic casts as they are in the close-up photos.
(I am assuming the painted are 3d prints).
They are most likely 3D prints OR the test runs for the mold. If they are 3D prints then layer lines would not show up in a cast plastic version.
McDougall Designs wrote: Having the next batch of existing minis run in Poland would do nothing substantial to the detail. They would have to resculpt, and at the very least re-engineer the sprues if indeed there is detail on the master models that their older process was smoothing/flattening out.
depends on what the actual problem is, and I doubt it is something in the master model
it is either the mould itself or something during the process (like removing them to early to speed up) and as there are usually pre-production samples it is unlikely that the mould is off
and than I don't know what their contract in general is, might be that they got a good offering to re-do the existing models as well
don't know the capacity from Archon, but we get at least 2-4 kits now (Ogre Warrior, Ogre/Orc/Goblin Chariots) and 2-4 kits next year (Twilight Kin) if this is all they can do, its ok but if they can do more we might see something
Anything that will make them look like they actually had someone sculpt the sides would be an improvement. The torsos on the marauder core troops look like they sculpted a front and a back then jammed them together, decided they were too waif like and then stretched the front and back apart, distorting any side details.
I like the look of that!
The dragon looks good, but also like a gaming model (instead of something that will probably break in the course of getting to and playing a game).
I happen to have been collecting and painting assorted fantasy models for a RPG/skirmish collection, because I'm not keen for a new army project at the moment, so these sets are extra appealing.
Really like the "perfectly normal chest".
I like these boxed sets, and they're reasonably priced (I think) given how the market has gone bananas in the past year or so.
Yes, these boxes will be nice for any RPG game master who doesn't own its own 3D printer, doesn't know D&D miniatures is a thing or lives in UK. For the others...maybe not so much.
Mantic always planned to use other existing RPGs and not doing their own system
that the KoWRPG failed because the company doing it went out of business and therefore they switched to D&D instead, well what else can you do (taking the bet on another small system that might be gone before they finish?)
that the KoWRPG failed because the company doing it went out of business and therefore they switched to D&D instead, well what else can you do (taking the bet on another small system that might be gone before they finish?)
Taking responsibility and find a way to make sure the project still lives in the end, rather than letting down all the faithful backers ?
Because let's be clear : who chose the company first ? Certainly not the backers...You take the risk, you pay the bill. If you chose it because it was a low cost for the job done and, oh surprise, they suddenly went out of business because it turned out it was too low to be true, well it's still Mantic Games who made that choice in the first place. Running away with the tail between your legs and invoking "cutting costs" as an excuse is a coward's answer. It's the GW way.
So I stand by my words and will make sure everyone will still remember what they did. No excuse, see the past as it was and aknowledge it fully.
Sarouan wrote: Taking responsibility and find a way to make sure the project still lives in the end, rather than letting down all the faithful backers ?
which means a long waiting time as until the case is resolved Mantic cannot do anything (to even have to wait to be allowed to buy the rights to release what was written)
which is true for everyone who backed a Kickstarter, you do it on your own risk and the backers knew that is as done by a 3rd party with the Mantic IP and not Mantic themselves
So I stand by my words and will make sure everyone will still remember what they did. No excuse, see the past as it was and aknowledge it fully.
as you will do with every single mobile scam game using the GW IPs I guess?
Happy to have the dungeon crawler sculpts available, there are some genuinely good ones in there. I also dig the dragon quite a bit - less so the PVC, was hoping for resin
that the KoWRPG failed because the company doing it went out of business and therefore they switched to D&D instead, well what else can you do (taking the bet on another small system that might be gone before they finish?)
Taking responsibility and find a way to make sure the project still lives in the end, rather than letting down all the faithful backers?
Take responsibility for what? Letting someone make something with their IP? I think it's a better option than refusing everything that they can't do in house.
Not to mention that Mantic is actually doing what they can. There are legal issues regarding the ownership of work and information that needs to be resolved before Mantic can proceed though. Mantic doen't even have access to who the backers are (last I checked).
Because let's be clear : who chose the company first ? Certainly not the backers...You take the risk, you pay the bill. If you chose it because it was a low cost for the job done and, oh surprise, they suddenly went out of business because it turned out it was too low to be true, well it's still Mantic Games who made that choice in the first place. Running away with the tail between your legs and invoking "cutting costs" as an excuse is a coward's answer. It's the GW way.
So I stand by my words and will make sure everyone will still remember what they did. No excuse, see the past as it was and aknowledge it fully.
The backers did choose the company. It was completely clear that the project was not run by Mantic and a Kickstarter form the beginning.
All Kickstarter always is not guaranteed. It is a risk all backers accept, whether one takes it seriously or not. Mantic did not accept a risk, backers did.
Sarouan wrote: Mantic "we totally messed up our own RPG project so we'd rather repackage our stuff and use another existing RPG instead" Games
(also reselling their old miniatures more expensive than before, because they're totally not like GW all right)
Terrain Crate has always been aimed at RPG's in general. It predates KoWRPG and has never been reliant on what Red Scar produced.
Mantic don't own work on a RPG to repackage.
The Dungeon Saga minaitures being better presented as suitable for RPGs is just making it easier for customers to find their products.
Price increases are not exactly a scandal with the state of the world in the last few years, Mantic have been exceptionally transparent about that.
Boss Salvage wrote: Happy to have the dungeon crawler sculpts available, there are some genuinely good ones in there. I also dig the dragon quite a bit - less so the PVC, was hoping for resin
There are some great figs in there. The giant dire-badger is particularly cool.
I think we're going to see alot less resin for large figures from game companies. It's just so much cheaper in PVC and with large figures the sculptor isn't as pressured to make the detail so fine, so there's less detail loss and it's less noticeable that the sculptor is "sculpting for PVC" on large stuff. Doesn't help Resin fans that offerings from Deep Cuts and others are creating the expectation among gamers that large models should be more affordable.
On the other hand, I'm generally quite happy with PVC for large models. I took my son to the game store (Games Plus) up north for the first time in years. They have multiple walls full of Bones, Deep Cuts, etc. I was really impressed by the quality and how much more affordable large figures can be these days when compared to the past where Resin and Metal were the main options and prices basically increased exponentially with size.
Sarouan wrote: Taking responsibility and find a way to make sure the project still lives in the end, rather than letting down all the faithful backers ?
which means a long waiting time as until the case is resolved Mantic cannot do anything (to even have to wait to be allowed to buy the rights to release what was written)
They still had the choice. They did chose the one where they pull the plug out and nevermind the backers. Excuses that are justifying their choice are just that : excuses.
which is true for everyone who backed a Kickstarter, you do it on your own risk and the backers knew that is as done by a 3rd party with the Mantic IP and not Mantic themselves
You think the company didn't have a deal with Mantic Games about using their IP ? Of course they did. And of course Mantic Games was fully on board with that since the beginning.
So you blame the backers for being gullible and believe Mantic Games wouldn't make a deal with a shady company (risking their reputation if it fails in the end) ? Well, your call, not mine.
So I stand by my words and will make sure everyone will still remember what they did. No excuse, see the past as it was and aknowledge it fully.
as you will do with every single mobile scam game using the GW IPs I guess?
Ah here is your fanboyism truly appearing : using "whataboutism" to deflect from the facts in this case. Mind you, GW has nothing to do with Mantic Games messing up that RPG project. So you can always try hard to defend them from what they did, it won't change the past. It sure bothers you because you can't say they do care for customers after such a move, doesn't it ? That's because they didn't, they cared for their well being first. Which is understandable, but it simply is in the way of their so called reputation of them caring for gamers and so on. They're not. They're a corporation like GW and they will use GW tricks if it's for the sake of their company and earnings. Hell, they're made with people who worked at GW. They're just smaller, and they use that to justify any of their moves that they gladly let their fans blame GW for when GW does it.
That people like you still try to make a difference between GW and Mantic Games for the sake of so called "competition on the market" is something I will always find funny - and the reason all of your arguments on that matter will always sound false, to me.
Besides, what I find scummy in GW's case about some mobile games doesn't make me put a blind eye on Mantic's own behaviour when they do also scummy stuff. The difference between you and me is that I'm not trying to defend Mantic Games at all costs. I actually don't see the problem to see them as yet another corporation using corporation moves like GW does : that's how capitalism works and how it was always intended to be, it was never about caring for their customers.
DarkBlack wrote:
Take responsibility for what? Letting someone make something with their IP? I think it's a better option than refusing everything that they can't do in house.
Not to mention that Mantic is actually doing what they can. There are legal issues regarding the ownership of work and information that needs to be resolved before Mantic can proceed though. Mantic doen't even have access to who the backers are (last I checked).
Yes, the myth of the small company who does what they can because of fatality striking them. Why do you think they use Kickstarter projects in the first place ? It's not just because they're a small company, it's mostlu because it's more profitable that way for them. They always use the method that has the less costs and more benefits for them, as any corporation will do obviously. But it's not a justification in itself, and it's not the only choice they had at that time if they really wanted to make it work for their faithful fanbase. They just chose the less painful for them and that's it, nevermind the backers. They chose to make the risk being paid by the backers and not them.
Like they did abandon games like Dungeon Saga. It's also a choice they could make otherwise.
But it's not something that isn't understandable in the capitalist world we live in, like I said above. You just have to aknowledge that their reputation of them caring for gamers is not true. They care for their reputation first, and are more than glad to make their fans believe they're actually different from GW, because it serves them well on a marketing level (also, having the fans doing their work for nothing is a win-win situation - they don't have to pay someone to do that, after all).
The backers did choose the company. It was completely clear that the project was not run by Mantic and a Kickstarter form the beginning.
All Kickstarter always is not guaranteed. It is a risk all backers accept, whether one takes it seriously or not. Mantic did not accept a risk, backers did.
Always blame the victims, not the true culprit at the source of everything. Like I said, Mantic Games chose to make the risk paid by the backers and didn't feel like they owned them anything. If they did, that would have been a true move from a company that call itself caring for gamers, though. Because nothing in Kickstarter rules prevented them to intervene and try to find a good solution for the backers, in the end. Too bad, that wasn't their choice.
Terrain Crate has always been aimed at RPG's in general. It predates KoWRPG and has never been reliant on what Red Scar produced.
Mantic don't own work on a RPG to repackage.
The Dungeon Saga minaitures being better presented as suitable for RPGs is just making it easier for customers to find their products.
Price increases are not exactly a scandal with the state of the world in the last few years, Mantic have been exceptionally transparent about that.
Excuses don't mean they're forgiven. They still did increase their prices when repackaging their RPG stuff...and that wasn't transparent in this case, they simply did it without saying anything in a blog.
They just use the GW way here, but why do you try to defend them on that matter ? It's okay to say "hey Mantic Games is not as clean as their community seems to think they are". It's not dirty in itself. It's just seeing the corporation as it is...and ask for something more if that's really important for you. Removed - grow up.
DarkBlack wrote:
The backers did choose the company. It was completely clear that the project was not run by Mantic and a Kickstarter form the beginning.
All Kickstarter always is not guaranteed. It is a risk all backers accept, whether one takes it seriously or not. Mantic did not accept a risk, backers did.
Always blame the victims, not the true culprit at the source of everything. Like I said, Mantic Games chose to make the risk paid by the backers and didn't feel like they owned them anything. If they did, that would have been a true move from a company that call itself caring for gamers, though. Because nothing in Kickstarter rules prevented them to intervene and try to find a good solution for the backers, in the end. Too bad, that wasn't their choice.
"Victims" is an odd word to use for people who agreed to a a risk of a possibility before it happened. As it happened, Mantic got screwed by this too.
Again (because you still don't appear to understand this) THIS WAS NOT A MANTIC PROJECT, THIS WAS A DIFFERENT COMPANY (Red Scar). THAT COMPANY HAS CLOSED. Mantic's involvement was to allow the use of their IP and they could check content pertaining to their IP before release. Mantic didn't see much content either though.
Mantic don't owe anyone on this, they never received any money to work on this. IT WAS NEVER A MANTIC PROJECT. Yet, Mantic are still trying to do as much for backers as they can.
There are actually rules and (more importantly) laws preventing Mantic form intervening. As THIS WAS NOT A MANTIC PROJECT; Mantic don't own, have access to or have the right to distribute anything that has been produced for the KoWRPG. Those rights belong to Red Scar A DIFFERENT COMPANY THAT HAS CLOSED.
As it is NOT MANTIC'S KICKSTARTER Mantic don't have access to information like who the backers even are. They are working on it, but legal stuff takes time.
It's just seeing the corporation as it is....
You're not though. You apparently can't even understand the actual situation with the KoWRPG.
Again (because you still don't appear to understand this) THIS WAS NOT A MANTIC PROJECT, THIS WAS A DIFFERENT COMPANY (Red Scar). THAT COMPANY HAS CLOSED. Mantic's involvement was to allow the use of their IP and they could check content pertaining to their IP before release. Mantic didn't see much content either though.
Which is still their responsibility. If you allow the use of your IP by someone else and you don't really look about the viability of the project to the end...that's a massive oversight from your part, in the end.
Same with that disastrous deal with Victoria Games about the translation in french and distribution in France and Belgium of Mantic Games products, and how they dealt with the crowfunded translation of the last edition of KoW rules...it ended up with the death of the french market because apparently Mantic Games didn't really understand that their "partner" wasn't up to the task. Not like they really cared about the french market, anyway.
Mantic don't owe anyone on this, they never received any money to work on this. IT WAS NEVER A MANTIC PROJECT. Yet, Mantic are still trying to do as much for backers as they can.
Not enough, apparently. You can say it was never a Mantic project all you want : when you allow someone else to use your IP, you know your reputation is engaged as well. And if that someone feths up with your IP's name on it, well...you know you're fethed up too.
More so when they're tied up by "legal rules" as you say as well. They could have taken that into account BEFORE it became a project, couldn't they ? But they didn't...lack of competence ? Oversight ? Just didn't care because it wasn't their money ? Who knows, doesn't matter...the end result is there, and backers were the ones who paid for it.
It's just seeing the corporation as it is....
You're not though. You apparently can't even understand the actual situation with the KoWRPG.
Oh I very much do. You just don't want to aknowledge that Mantic Games could have done something else than they did with that project.
And nothing is wrong with me. When Mantic fanboys will stop being stupidly blind about Mantic Games practices while overeacting to anything GW does, I will say otherwise. Like that blog about justifying raising their prices that was encensed as "transparency". Come on. He just wanted to save his company's reputation, that's all. He did exactly the same than GW, in the end, and you all fell for it.
you are not a backer of the KS otherwise you would know about the situation
or you are and just don't read emails
and maybe you can give us the background information that it was clear from the very beginning that the company using the IP was shady and going out of business
because for some odd reasons you know things nobody else know, so either you make stuff up or you have a source in the industry that knows much more than everybody else
and for the later, we would like to know those things as well
Mantic don't owe anyone on this, they never received any money to work on this. IT WAS NEVER A MANTIC PROJECT. Yet, Mantic are still trying to do as much for backers as they can.
Not enough, apparently. You can say it was never a Mantic project all you want : when you allow someone else to use your IP, you know your reputation is engaged as well. And if that someone feths up with your IP's name on it, well...you know you're fethed up too.
More so when they're tied up by "legal rules" as you say as well. They could have taken that into account BEFORE it became a project, couldn't they ? But they didn't...lack of competence ? Oversight ? Just didn't care because it wasn't their money ? Who knows, doesn't matter...the end result is there, and backers were the ones who paid for it.
Those "legal rules" are called laws, they're best taken seriously.
You clearly don't know the details. Red Scar was a reliable company that had successfully done similar work before; it was completely reasonable to expect that they could handle the project. From both Mantic and the backer's point of view.
Which is why, again, backers agreed to back the project while accepting the risk that it might not deliver (which is part of backing a Kickstarter).
SERIOUSLY I CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH HOW KICKSTARTER BACKERS HAVE TO EXPLICITLY AGREE THAT THERE IS A RISK OF PROJECTS NOT DELIVERING.
Mantic are not obliged or required to do ANYTHING. Insisting otherwise is unreasonable and entitled.
Red Scar then closed due to COVID and mental health issues of the company owner (induced by his family faring badly with COVID). This was unforeseen and it is not reasonable to have expected anyone (even Red Scar) to have foreseen this.
And nothing is wrong with me.
I was referring to how vulgar you were being. What a fethed up thing to say.
Also not sure why you're so intent to find something wrong with Mantic. No one is saying they're prefect.
lord_blackfang wrote:Sarouan's been dunkin' on Mantic here for 5 years, you learn to tune him out.
In this case I feel like we should get the facts straight. People have and do use this forum to find out about Mantic and their games (especially initially).
I would not like to leave Sarouan's version of this to go unchallenged when potential new players might be reading.
Hm, one of the reasons I have liked Mantics monsters in the past is for their ability to remain 'in their space' without spreading wings/limbs/tails everywhere.
But that is a lot of good generic dungeon stuff. The critters lineup is probably my favorite, solid mix of generic and exotic covering pretty much all the major categories.
New plastic chariot kit incoming for Orcs, Goblins and Ogres, presumably with different riders depending on which. Here's the Ogre version: While the fleabags are a little weird, I don't hate them the more I look at their big derpy heads. Certainly think the painting leaves something to be desired. But either way, more plastic chariots on the market are more better.
not sure about the Chariot, I guess it will be a basic kit for Ogres, Orcs and Goblins with 1 standard infantry frame in a box of 3.
hoped for different animals/beasts for the different factions als fleabags is a Goblin thing (kind of), but the base is ok
kodos wrote: hoped for different animals/beasts for the different factions als fleabags is a Goblin thing (kind of)
Fleabags are supposed to be an Ogre thing too, but having never seen Mantic Red Goblin Scouts in an Ogre army (always always always GW goblins on wolves or squigs) it's easy for me to forget too
Those Siege Breakers, on the other hand, look great. Pumped to see some heavy Ogres with Big Shields on the table and not just Ironguts with Big Helmets
I guess because we haven't seen new Fleabag riders yet as those are still the old PVC/Metal models
not that those are that bad, just all beasts having wide open mouths and metal parts are a big turn off (mantic should just add a new plastic frame instead of the metal parts)
I wouldn't call "new" this chariot. The chariot itself is actually the same design parts than before, they seem to just have added a barrier on the front. You have the rider and the beasts that are really "new".
Well, if at least it's not in their old crap resin anymore, that's that.
seeing a new Hero with the Army set is nice, so we can pick up old Vanguard warbands on sale without the fear to double the hero models
and the Mega Army trades Goblins, 1 Hero and 1 Troops with Chariots
not sure about that one, would have still expected (and liked) some of the new Goblin models or a 2nd Heroe
kodos wrote: seeing a new Hero with the Army set is nice, so we can pick up old Vanguard warbands on sale without the fear to double the hero models
and the Mega Army trades Goblins, 1 Hero and 1 Troops with Chariots
not sure about that one, would have still expected (and liked) some of the new Goblin models or a 2nd Heroe
I've heard from multiple customers today that the mega army set seems light, the regular army set is redundant with the price of Sands of Ahmun on my webstore/content included, and the chariots (at least from the paintjob) look poor.
I guess what I'm trying to say here is your thoughts track with at least 4 other gamers from across the globe.
As long as I make sales, can keep my lights on and keep offering minis at solid prices, its all neutral to me personally.
the chariots are the same design but better material with different animals and new crew
if you already have the old one, no need to replace them and if you can get the old ones for cheap, replacing the crew with new models is easy
overall it is good to get new ones and if you did not like the previous style you won't like the new ones
and the 2 player sets were always a very good deal specially if you wanted the rules as well as you get almost got an army box per faction + rules for a similar price (100€ vs 90€)
so in this case with most people who want Ogres or EoD also want the new rule book, the 2 player set is the better deal over an army box as you get a 2nd army box for free
(it was just that selling of the 2nd army and rules is usually difficult hence not the default option to go for stuff you don't need in KoW)
what worries me a little is that there is just 1 Hero with the box, which usually means Army Box and not Mega Army and going with the expected prices (45 for chariots, 30-35 for regiments, 15 for a Heroe), the saving would on the lower end of the Mega Armies (1 free Hero and Troop)
though the Army Box is identical with the old one, 3 Regiments+Hero
Ogres are Neutral, and so can be used as allies for any alignment, so Sands of Ahmun can work as EoD primary with Ogres allies. It's not a bad box. Just not for me; got all the Ogres I need for KoW allies, and got ~80 unbuilt skellies with a 200+ skeleton army already in existence.
It all looks awesome to me, I want to collect both armies and the spare rulebooks will be easier to sell off this time, with the older softbacks in 2-player sets I just gave them away to anyone expressing a slight interest in starting the game. Considering getting three boxes.
There's always a playerbase to use the minis in, even if KoW isn't big locally anyone still playing older edition WHFB is very relaxed about non-GW minis being used and that community is about the same size as KoW, it seems to have settled on 6th as the edition of choice, in the same way that old edition 40k has settled on 5th.
Very easy to fill out a 2k Ogre Kingdoms or Tomb Kings list for 6th with Mantic hard plastics and a few reaper bones or TTcombat bits.
kodos wrote:what worries me a little is that there is just 1 Hero with the box, which usually means Army Box and not Mega Army and going with the expected prices (45 for chariots, 30-35 for regiments, 15 for a Heroe), the saving would on the lower end of the Mega Armies (1 free Hero and Troop)
though the Army Box is identical with the old one, 3 Regiments+Hero
Keep in mind that if you run hordes at PMC (i.e. with 5 models) then each 6th model can be a hero.
Alternatively one regiment is easily 3 ogre heroes and ogre heroes are fantastic in game.
Ancestral Hamster wrote: Ogres are Neutral, and so can be used as allies for any alignment, so Sands of Ahmun can work as EoD primary with Ogres allies. It's not a bad box. Just not for me; got all the Ogres I need for KoW allies, and got ~80 unbuilt skellies with a 200+ skeleton army already in existence.
That's sort of what I was thinking. A starter box that can easily be used for 2 players or for 1 without stretching credulity.
If I wasn't pretty set on the upcoming WGA Lanschnekt Ogres for my Ogre mercs, I'd be asking around the club to see who wanted to split this box. Especially since a couple of us have pre-ordered the new rulebook from McDougall already.
From 4chan:
"The livestream where the Counter Charge guys interviewed Ronny about upcoming Mantic stuff is neat
>App is coming at the end of the month with listbuilding for all their games and Ronny wants have an Infinity esque tournament ranking system eventually
>Twilight Kin will be very different from everything to date, next KoW book is going to be all about the void+Northern Alliance
>Elves, dwarf, and orc plastics are going to be replaced. New dwarf sprues will have on sprue with wooden shields and horned helmets for the Free Dwarfs while the Imperial Dwarfs will get kite shields and more imperial looking bits
>Flying unit for Free Dwarfs shown off for half a second
>Ronny wants to start selling STLs for things they don't make in hard plastic, pointing to all of their spendy resin models, conversion bits, and monopose PVC as examples. Ronny the bard will be in the welcome pack. They will still sell normally cast models for those who don't want to print them
>Siocast doesn't have a use for them yet as they already do hard plastics and resin or STLs are better for the specialized models
>Deadzone and Firefight will share the same book in the future
>Plastic rebels late next year, Ronny wants the entire army to be covered
>New modular mushroom-tree things were shown off
>Ronny doesn't want to remove armies despite tourneyfag bitching as he says they help develop the setting, claims Ophidians will come eventually to do as much
>New hard plastic nightstalker butchers that might be useable as a different profile as well
>Kings of War did really well during the pandemic, but growth is slowed now
>New starter sets will be made with the Kings of War Ambush rules in mind and come with textured unit bases rather than individual bases to make things more accessible
>Deadzone is selling much better than it used to
>They have the Streets of Rage license that they will use for a board game
The app still won't replace tacticalwargames for me given that some stuff is paywalled.''
New book shipping early!
Mantic’s current focus is to “recruit” new players.
Uncharted Empires was kept separate in case of legal issues regarding copyright. Mantic are no longer concerned.
Vanguard has not been the entry point that Mantic hoped, ambush is to fill that role.
6 “ambush sets” coming that contain “a little box of minis” (on plastic sprues), include unit bases and a premade list in the “app”.
The app is a website (subscription based) that will primarily be an army builder and also host a living rulebook, “math hammer” calculator, tournament organizing software, will allow Mantic to collect data and publish rankings. Intended to be for all Mantic systems.
The app likely to make EasyArmy obsolete, Greg says he’s OK with that.
Mantic planning to revisit Vanguard in the long term.
Halfling and Rift Forged Orcs coming for Vanguard.
More narrative focus on “The Void” coming up (NA, TK and NS), including in the new Twilight Kin, in next year’s CoK.
New plastics for night stalkers coming with TK release, definitely butchers.
4th edition will come later due to recent rules development and releases.
Desire within Mantic to to “get rid of” miniatures on integrated bases and redo legacy armies, but only after short term goal of “completing” several armies (Trident Realm given as example).
Dwarfs riding giant ravens coming for Northern Alliance and probably Free Dwarfs (crossover between dwarfs from NA and Free Dwarfs expected).
Trident Realm coming to Armada next year.
No intention to consolidate armies, for lists that add to the “Story of Pannithor” at least.
Ophidia and another army definitely coming eventually.
“Whole other section of the map” being revealed “at some point in the medium to distant future”.
Mantic looking at stls for upgrade kits and models that are not viable for them to produce commercially (resin models are expensive to make). Buying physical plastic kits are expected to remain more appealing than 3D printing your own.
Modular Sci-Fi trees coming soon. Neoprene area terrain planned.
Rebs coming for Firefight next year.
Deadzone is doing well and will share a book with Firefight.
Shadow Walker wrote: >They have the Streets of Rage license that they will use for a board game
Unexpected twist!
Lots of good KOW stuff in the pipe, very much looking forward to the Void release, as all three of those armies need some love (rules-wise for NA + TK, proper plastics for TK + NS but really NA as well). I wish them luck selling those STLs but it would certainly make my life easier. Shipping from the UK is rough for single upgrade bits, while my printer lurks in my basement, waiting (This in counterpoint to PP, who managed to not cut out shipping and in-house production despite moving away from cast resin to print resin.)
BobtheInquisitor wrote: A whole other section of the map will be revealed, eh? I look forward to seeing what they have for Khitai and icy Tevet.
To take you more seriously than you intend to be taken, I doubt they'd do Cold Humans With Furs, because Northern Alliance exists, and the oft-rumored Ophidia may well check some of the design flourishes people expect of Shma-shmay. On top of Mantic being less and less interested in rifling through the castoffs of Shmarhammer Shmantasy Shmattles when they know they need to focus on their own game for it to keep growing.
selling STLs as upgrades to the plastic kits is unexpected but could be the best of both worlds
would also make distribution easier as retailers with a 3D printer just need to stock the plastics and can to the resin upgrades on demand
BobtheInquisitor wrote: A whole other section of the map will be revealed, eh? I look forward to seeing what they have for Khitai and icy Tevet.
it is not like an asian theme was teaseared some time ago as Salamanders got their ship design from a people further away
and now Ophidia + another faction could mean a lot, and of course as they need someone new to fight against (as we got Halflings and Riftforged Orcs), but I doubt there will be 2 human themed ones
and Arabia VS India could be interesting
DarkBlack wrote: Mantic planning to revisit Vanguard in the long term.
Vanguard is one of those that looks like it would be my favourite game ever, and I have a full army assem;bed and rule book ready to go, but never could find anyone to play with :( I do hope they give it another solid go.
4th edition will come later due to recent rules development and releases.
Sounds to me like Mantic might be trying to spike their sales by releasing a new edition, has there been that much change to warrant a new edition already? 3rd feels like it is still new.
DarkBlack wrote: Mantic planning to revisit Vanguard in the long term.
Vanguard is one of those that looks like it would be my favourite game ever, and I have a full army assem;bed and rule book ready to go, but never could find anyone to play with :( I do hope they give it another solid go.
Ronnie mentioned that no games are great in their first edition and that they could do it better now. So we can hope.
4th edition will come later due to recent rules development and releases.
Sounds to me like Mantic might be trying to spike their sales by releasing a new edition, has there been that much change to warrant a new edition already? 3rd feels like it is still new.
What?
Ronnie (and I) said that 4th edition is FURTHER AWAY. This book is basically version 3.5, so a new edition will NOT be needed for some time.
DarkBlack wrote: Mantic planning to revisit Vanguard in the long term.
Vanguard is one of those that looks like it would be my favourite game ever, and I have a full army assem;bed and rule book ready to go, but never could find anyone to play with :( I do hope they give it another solid go.
Ronnie mentioned that no games are great in their first edition and that they could do it better now. So we can hope.
4th edition will come later due to recent rules development and releases.
Sounds to me like Mantic might be trying to spike their sales by releasing a new edition, has there been that much change to warrant a new edition already? 3rd feels like it is still new.
What?
Ronnie (and I) said that 4th edition is FURTHER AWAY. This book is basically version 3.5, so a new edition will NOT be needed for some time.
No, you said later, that isn't the same as further away, by later it seemed to imply you meant not too long from now. What you meant to say was the need for a 4th edition will be pushed back due to the 3.5 book. So it will be late, not later.
If talking about a set of releases and one is mentioned as being later it means that it is coming at the end of those items.
lord_blackfang wrote: STL upgrade bits is a great idea I've been clamoring for (in general, not for Mantic in particular) for a while.
Whole-heartedly agree. One of the best things about having a resin printer and a few Patreon subscriptions is how quickly my digital bits box has accrued.
Having the companies that make the plastic minis also design STL bits that require no or minimal customization to fit their minis would be even better!
-Mantic’s current focus is to “recruit” new players.
Is it not the focus for, like, every game company in the world ? It's like saying "we intend to make water wet". That was really seriously presented as a revelation ?
Because if it wasn't Mantic Games focus so far...gosh that explains so many things, actually. But not in a good way.
-Uncharted Empires was kept separate in case of legal issues regarding copyright. Mantic are no longer concerned.
Translation : "We totally knew we were basically copy pasting GW's stuff at that time. Now, we're making sure it's less obvious."
-Vanguard has not been the entry point that Mantic hoped, ambush is to fill that role.
Not surprising. Game was too unnecessarily complicated to be a real entry point for new players and KoW's background as attachment for its universe is not appealing enough to make a proper bridge for that. Vanguard was more often presented to "use any miniature you want" as a stand alone game than an entry point of KoW products.
-The app is a website (subscription based) that will primarily be an army builder and also host a living rulebook, “math hammer” calculator, tournament organizing software, will allow Mantic to collect data and publish rankings. Intended to be for all Mantic systems.
Smells a bit fishy with that "data collection" part, especially in those days where people are a bit more accurately aware of the protection of their private datas...better watch twice what will be written on the website about this when it will be released.
-Mantic looking at stls for upgrade kits and models that are not viable for them to produce commercially (resin models are expensive to make).
"Resin models are expensive to make"...no feth, Sherlock.
It will all end up about the price of their stl, but I'm not expecting they will be that interesting in the end. Unless Mantic Games model quality greatly improves...but if they say "resin models are expensive to make", I suspect that means they can't afford to pay skilled 3D sculptors for a rightful price as well and that will show in the quality of the end product. And if they want to make it profitable...it will certainly not be competitive to other 3d file platform like cult3D that are dirt cheap (when not free).
Then if they do something like a patreon and given they already have a community of faithful fans...if handled well with properly paid people to manage it, sure, why not.
Buying physical plastic kits are expected to remain more appealing than 3D printing your own.
Oh, you sweet naive child. For customers who don't know what 3D printing is, sure, it may look that way. But good luck with that idea !
Frankly speaking ? If the kits stays as they are (generic fantasy low quality model with basic customisation) and their prices will (eventually) keep rising...it will be less likely to happen. The level of customisation and quality from professionnal 3D sculptors with much more characterful models is already out of the window nowadays, for prices that no plastic kit can ever compete.
Neoprene area terrain planned.
The stuff of competitions. As long as it doesn't translate too much on objective areas / physical manifestation to fulfill scenario victory conditions (that makes the battlefield look ugly if there are too many of them on it, IMHO).
But otherwise, it's good to hype the community with news.
lord_blackfang wrote: Flat features like roads and lakes are great in neoprene. Forests? Only as an "area terrain" base you can move 3d trees around on.
Rough terrain yes but ruins I do prefer to have in 3D
Totally ! But it's more in line with KoW's rules to use an area from which you can temporarily remove terrain that can make unit moves more awkward, just like forests. A neoprene base for that purpose is the summum.
(personnally, I use transparent plastic sheets cut to the right dimensions)
Most/Many games look to recruit 'old' players who have gamed before (often on GW games)
I suspect Ronnie means they're moving a bit away from that (along with less copy pasting old GWWHFB armies) to looking to pick up genuine shiney eyed newcomers
My bet is on using magical apps to find incredible data to use and summon them directly in KoW clubs / tournaments.
Joke aside...apart from touching to the big "no no" of the old players - meaning having "simpler, more newcomer friendly rules" and developping gaming clubs / stores that can easily dedicate themselves to that...basically what GW is doing and Mantic Games tries its best not to be associated with...there's actually no magical solution here.
It will all end up about the price of their stl, but I'm not expecting they will be that interesting in the end. Unless Mantic Games model quality greatly improves...but if they say "resin models are expensive to make", I suspect that means they can't afford to pay skilled 3D sculptors for a rightful price as well and that will show in the quality of the end product. And if they want to make it profitable...it will certainly not be competitive to other 3d file platform like cult3D that are dirt cheap (when not free).
they simple say that they will offer the current Resin parts they are selling as 3D files (which they have already as this is how to make their masters)
no one said they want to compete with free copies of GW models, which makes no sense anyway as bits made for GW models hardly fit the Mantic ones
and there are not really many doing bits to convert Mantic models, so there is no competition at all
and don't confuse model quality with design, and I guess you never got any of their resin models if think their sculptor is bad
lord_blackfang wrote:Flat features like roads and lakes are great in neoprene. Forests? Only as an "area terrain" base you can move 3d trees around on.
To be clear: neoprene was mentioned as a way to define the area of terrain while talking about Mantic's upcoming physical models of Sci-Fi trees (they would probably do well as weird fantasy trees too).
There was also mention of corner pieces intended to define where exactly a ruin ends for the Sci-Fi terrain.
Sarouan wrote:
-Mantic’s current focus is to “recruit” new players.
Is it not the focus for, like, every game company in the world ? It's like saying "we intend to make water wet". That was really seriously presented as a revelation ?
Obviously not. It was an observation by the person writing the summary.
While it should be a goal of gaming companies; it is not necessarily the primary focus.
A company might want to focus on making more games, getting their in house production set up, managing a business during COVID or working on a new edition or book (for example).
Well that starter is aggressively priced, it's basically the 90€ Empire of Dust army with the new rulebook and 2 regiments of Ogres thrown in for another 10€
Mantic baseline prices are getting kinda steep tho.
Are the EoD plastic models as bad as they look in the photos or is it just a poor paint job?
Plus how are Mantic plastics nowadays? I enjoyed the early days of their Undead and Elves but was burned by the atrocious original Basilean infantry and have never been back to the KOW range since.
Ogre prices stayed the same with new models, which is great
Starters were always a good deal as the 2nd force is free
and I guess the mentioned Ambush sets, that come with pre-made army lists (which is the target point for new players, play out of the box without the need to read/learn what is good or bad), will be aggressive priced as well
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ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Plus how are Mantic plastics nowadays? I enjoyed the early days of their Undead and Elves but was burned by the atrocious original Basilean infantry and have never been back to the KOW range since.
the models in between are good, like the Abyssals, Abyssal Dwarfs and the updated Basileans
some of the later sets have issues with soft/no details on the side (made by a different company) and the Ogres look to be good again
kodos wrote:nearly all companies try to get people into the hobby that come from GW
the only one that comes to my mind that did not was FFG/AMG because they focus on board gamers
Oh far from all. That's why I wrote "game companies" in general. Sure, Mantic Games does draw from GW crowd specifically mainly because of its history and its own products. Also they're on the same island than their big brother, which does play a part as well, like it or not.
But other miniature producing companies - often on much smaller scales, let's be honest - do also draw a lot from RPG players, most famous of all being Dungeons and Dragons, and the huge market of historical games.
And of course, there are the companies that go way beyond the niche market of that, like indeed boardgames and well...video games. They're still games, in the end. Even Hasbro is bigger than GW in terms of market, anyway. Why do you think Heroquest was so successful in its time ? Certainly not because it was a partnership with GW drawing to GW customers (they weren't the same size as today for sure as well)...but really because it was intended at the big mainstream market outside of the niche of a bunch of weird wargamers playing with monster miniatures.
and don't confuse model quality with design, and I guess you never got any of their resin models if think their sculptor is bad
I do have them, I still have my fire and water elementals. The most recent are my halfling knights and hunters (with their resin upgrade sprue). Those last ones...let's say I do also remember the bubbles ruining some details and too thin parts of bows / arrows making me break a few of them while glueing them (with lots of cursing words). :(
So I can tell in comparison to what does, let's say, Artisan Guild's 3d models, I can totally say Mantic Games models do pale in comparison in term of quality and design (bubbles in resin, I can also do it myself with my 3D printer for cheaper than what I bought them on Mantic Games' online shop, import taxes included).
Simply said : they're average. They're not a steal for the money they're selling them, but they're not blowing anything either for that same amount of money.
And...that's still the problem at core when you want to sell the miniatures with the game. You can always have a good game with awesome rules, and sell it to your friends so that they play with you. But the average miniatures...they're just giving a "meh" feeling. So usually, what do veterans advice to new players when they want to introduce them KoW and they're not really enthousiasmed by the miniatures and the fact they'll have to take litterally dozens of them ? They say "you can use any miniature you want, even GW's !".
And that's it. New players buying the rules on Mantic Games's shop, and miniatures elsewhere, including 3D sculptors. Which is totally not what Mantic Games would like, since they're not making a profit by just selling rules. There are actually lots of 3d printed armies / other source miniatures on Mantic Games social media, and it's not a hazard. It's mainly because Mantic Games miniatures aren't that great.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Board games seem like an ideal method.
Done right, yes. Heroquest is the perfect example. Dungeon Saga could have been if there was better focus and well...all the drama with its rule creator, whatever. At the very least not replacing it with Villain Saga...sure, it sounds different than HeroQuest and it's funny, but...villains aren't that appealing to play for the mainstream market. Kids would rather be heroes. That's why it failed IMHO (and the opinion of a lot of DS fans, actually - bring back Dungeon Saga properly, damn it ! Ahem sorry ).
ListenToMeWarriors wrote:Are the EoD plastic models as bad as they look in the photos or is it just a poor paint job?
Sadly, they're not great in themselves. But they do the job for the price. Somewhat.
Plus how are Mantic plastics nowadays? I enjoyed the early days of their Undead and Elves but was burned by the atrocious original Basilean infantry and have never been back to the KOW range since.
It really depends. Old kits like early undead and elves are still around and well what they are, but recent do also vary in quality and practicality of design. For example, I have the plastic halflings that I use to make a huge army. I can tell after building 200 of them that the way the sprues are designed and lack of details in some parts do make me remember old sprues from historical games. They do the job, don't misunderstand me, but sometimes it's clunky when you try to build them. Like having some space between parts that are meant to be glued to each other, or dog ears being weirdly too long / joining each other because of the way it was molded on the sprue.
In general, they're not made to be looked in details. Since they're meant to be put on regiments and thus have a global view, it does the job for the price. But you won't see them a lot as a Golden Demon model for a good reason ; because you quickly see their defaults when you put them on scrutiny or try to highlight too much their details. In short : you don't really want to spend a lot of time on them, because it would be a waste (or too much work for an average model in the end).
On the other hand, it can be very refreshing to say "ah I just painted the base color with shades and it's good enough like this. Oh wait I already made 20 of them ? Sweet !".
While it should be a goal of gaming companies; it is not necessarily the primary focus.
Which is why so many tend to die on the road, because they failed attracting enough new blood for the community to survive.
I saw that so many times in the past with so many games I loved...and it still hurts me to see there are some that keep making the same mistake, again and again.
-Vanguard has not been the entry point that Mantic hoped, ambush is to fill that role.
Not surprising. Game was too unnecessarily complicated to be a real entry point for new players and KoW's background as attachment for its universe is not appealing enough to make a proper bridge for that. Vanguard was more often presented to "use any miniature you want" as a stand alone game than an entry point of KoW products.
I used to really like Vanguard. I still do, but I used to, too
The game has some tremendous flaws though, to the point I wish it were higher on the remake priority list. It is NOT a "use any miniatures you have" game, people try to bill it that way but it really isn't. Firstly, Vanguard requires the Mantic specific square basing in the specific sizes. You can house rule to use round bases and mark LoS on the sides, but a couple of the rules like template attacks require even heavier workarounds that are more trouble than they're worth. Secondly, and more importantly, Vanguard armylists are too tied into their parent KoW armylists, which makes sense now that I realize they intended the game to funnel players into KoW, but it's very limiting as a standalone product. Vanguard lists basically have every unit listing with the specific equipment that that unit has in KoW. You can then buy additional equipment, but there's no base model and base equipment list (only the additional equipment list) so it can be hard to match a non-mantic models because of that built-in equipment. Elves for example: there's no base elf infantry, you have to buy Spearmen and Archers. So to take a 2H weapon elf like a Swordmaster or White Lion, you need to buy a spearman and add a great weapon, but he's still a spearman with the spearman specific ranked attack rule as there's no way to drop that equipment. You also can't take a basic sword and shield elf, you again need to buy a spearmen and add a heavy shield and pretend he has no spear. There's also no crossover from the board games, I tried to make an undead and an Abyss warband from the huge amount of Dungeon Saga minis I have, but the armylists don't even have options for some of the board game units and the basing is wrong since all Dungeon Saga is all on 25mm while KoW undead are on 20mm. You can work around it, all of it, but it's another thing to work around and there's SO many other miniature agnostic skirmish games out there that don't require workarounds that it's hard to get non-KoW players excited about Vanguard.
Vanguard could be an amazing standalone game with a few tweaks to the rules and armylists, but I don't see it as a real bridge into KoW, if that's what Mantic wanted it to be it explains a lot of the problems. Mantic is much better off focusing on Ambush being a good ruleset in that regard, hopefully that frees up Vanguard to be it's own game instead of being an intended stepping stone
My experience with Mantic boardgames is that they over saturated their market and left a solid “second best” impression. The only game of theirs I actually got to play was Star Saga, which was fine. The tile components were cheap and annoying, but the plastic tables and computer terminals were fun.
But the next time I went to play a quest style boardgame, it was Shadows of Brimstone. SOB has quality tiles, quality cards, and covers a lot more bases in terms of expansions and monsters. And it came out first.
Villain Saga sounded fun and up my alley, but the miniatures alone were not worth it and the game was too late and likely too flimsy to get my pledge.
I do have them, I still have my fire and water elementals. The most recent are my halfling knights and hunters (with their resin upgrade sprue). Those last ones...let's say I do also remember the bubbles ruining some details and too thin parts of bows / arrows making me break a few of them while glueing them (with lots of cursing words).
yeah, model quality, not design and a 3d sculptor has no influence on material quality
getting better sculptors does not improve quality in casting, therefore you need better caster (and for the plastics, mantic got one and for the Resin you soon can do it yourself)
Oh far from all. That's why I wrote "game companies" in general. Sure, Mantic Games does draw from GW crowd specifically mainly because of its history and its own products. Also they're on the same island than their big brother, which does play a part as well, like it or not.
But other miniature producing companies - often on much smaller scales, let's be honest - do also draw a lot from RPG players, most famous of all being Dungeons and Dragons, and the huge market of historical games.
mainly thinking of wargaming/miniature gaming companies
board games and scale models are a very different market
but most of the former do not go out to new players or have games made that are for those that have never touched a wargame/miniature game before as even most starters require basic knowledge of the hobby to get things done
Vanguard could be an amazing standalone game with a few tweaks to the rules and armylists, but I don't see it as a real bridge into KoW, if that's what Mantic wanted it to be it explains a lot of the problems. Mantic is much better off focusing on Ambush being a good ruleset in that regard, hopefully that frees up Vanguard to be it's own game instead of being an intended stepping stone
agree, Vanguard would be better off as stand alone skirmish, and Ambush a much better way for a gateway game
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Are the EoD plastic models as bad as they look in the photos or is it just a poor paint job?
Plus how are Mantic plastics nowadays? I enjoyed the early days of their Undead and Elves but was burned by the atrocious original Basilean infantry and have never been back to the KOW range since.
Whether they're bad or not is a matter for debate, but everything seems to indicate they're exactly like the pictures.
All these recent reveals I'm seeing things I like here and there, but overall, I just don't see an army that I like enough to want to collect/paint an entire army of. Northern Alliance is the closest, but not in the running as I've already got Varangur.
Love the Game, but can't seem to get excited about the models.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Are the EoD plastic models as bad as they look in the photos or is it just a poor paint job?
Plus how are Mantic plastics nowadays? I enjoyed the early days of their Undead and Elves but was burned by the atrocious original Basilean infantry and have never been back to the KOW range since.
Whether they're bad or not is a matter for debate, but everything seems to indicate they're exactly like the pictures.
All these recent reveals I'm seeing things I like here and there, but overall, I just don't see an army that I like enough to want to collect/paint an entire army of. Northern Alliance is the closest, but not in the running as I've already got Varangur.
Love the Game, but can't seem to get excited about the models.
So I can tell in comparison to what does, let's say, Artisan Guild's 3d models, I can totally say Mantic Games models do pale in comparison in term of quality and design (bubbles in resin, I can also do it myself with my 3D printer for cheaper than what I bought them on Mantic Games' online shop, import taxes included).
Saying you can print stuff for cheaper than RRP is kind of a moot point. That's true of any manufacturer. It's like saying you can paint models at home for less than hiring a commission painter - of course you can. That doesn't mean that the price is too expensive. You're comparing two different things at two different costs. Congratulations, you've just identified how business works.
So I can tell in comparison to what does, let's say, Artisan Guild's 3d models, I can totally say Mantic Games models do pale in comparison in term of quality and design (bubbles in resin, I can also do it myself with my 3D printer for cheaper than what I bought them on Mantic Games' online shop, import taxes included).
Saying you can print stuff for cheaper than RRP is kind of a moot point. That's true of any manufacturer. It's like saying you can paint models at home for less than hiring a commission painter - of course you can. That doesn't mean that the price is too expensive. You're comparing two different things at two different costs. Congratulations, you've just identified how business works.
That's true, but it bears noting that the cost for purchasing printed 3d printed figures has dropped and the cost of Mantic figures has risen, such that in many cases the 3d printed figures are even cheaper than Mantic.
That's trouble for Mantic since in some cases the 3d printed figures are as good or better than Mantic in terms of sculpting, or may be available in what is percieved as a more desirable style. Mantic still has the advantage of producing mostly polystyrene figures which is still a highly desirable material, but they're not alone in that either as Northstar (Oathmark and Frostrgrave) and WGA are on the rise and producing quality HIPS figures that are as cheap or less. None of this to say Mantic makes a bad product or is necessarily in danger, but we are looking at a market where just being cheap isn't enough anymore.
When I realized I could get 3d printed line troop figures (Chaos warriors in this case) of high quality for around a $1.25 each, it was clear something was changing.
So I can tell in comparison to what does, let's say, Artisan Guild's 3d models, I can totally say Mantic Games models do pale in comparison in term of quality and design (bubbles in resin, I can also do it myself with my 3D printer for cheaper than what I bought them on Mantic Games' online shop, import taxes included).
Saying you can print stuff for cheaper than RRP is kind of a moot point. That's true of any manufacturer. It's like saying you can paint models at home for less than hiring a commission painter - of course you can. That doesn't mean that the price is too expensive. You're comparing two different things at two different costs. Congratulations, you've just identified how business works.
That's true, but it bears noting that the cost for purchasing printed 3d printed figures has dropped and the cost of Mantic figures has risen, such that in many cases the 3d printed figures are even cheaper than Mantic.
That's trouble for Mantic since in some cases the 3d printed figures are as good or better than Mantic in terms of sculpting, or may be available in what is percieved as a more desirable style. Mantic still has the advantage of producing mostly polystyrene figures which is still a highly desirable material, but they're not alone in that either as Northstar (Oathmark and Frostrgrave) and WGA are on the rise and producing quality HIPS figures that are as cheap or less. None of this to say Mantic makes a bad product or is necessarily in danger, but we are looking at a market where just being cheap isn't enough anymore.
When I realized I could get 3d printed line troop figures (Chaos warriors in this case) of high quality for around a $1.25 each, it was clear something was changing.
That doesn't exactly counter my point. You can get 3D printed models or likewise 3D print models yourself for less than most companies charge because certain overheads aren't present in those cases. Packaging, retail, etc. Is it good for you? Yes. Does it mean that x company is over charging? Not really.
Add into that that 3D printing doesn't really have production concerns as much as any other materials and once again, you're comparing apples to oranges and asking why the apple is bad at being the orange. Because they're different.
Most 3D shops are cheap because they are a hobby, not a business
and that you can print yourself for cheaper, well you don't have to pay someone for the work either
and cheap plastic is nothing new, not even cheap fantasy plastic and WGA or Northstar is as much competing with Mantic as is Victrix or Perry
but the argument was that model quality is better with 3D print, which of course if you do themat home a print as long as you get one that is perfect (which can be the first or the 10th)
Eilif wrote: That's true, but it bears noting that the cost for purchasing printed 3d printed figures has dropped and the cost of Mantic figures has risen, such that in many cases the 3d printed figures are even cheaper than Mantic.
That's trouble for Mantic since in some cases the 3d printed figures are as good or better than Mantic in terms of sculpting, or may be available in what is percieved as a more desirable style. Mantic still has the advantage of producing mostly polystyrene figures which is still a highly desirable material, but they're not alone in that either as Northstar (Oathmark and Frostrgrave) and WGA are on the rise and producing quality HIPS figures that are as cheap or less. None of this to say Mantic makes a bad product or is necessarily in danger, but we are looking at a market where just being cheap isn't enough anymore.
When I realized I could get 3d printed line troop figures (Chaos warriors in this case) of high quality for around a $1.25 each, it was clear something was changing.
Exactly my point. At least GW can still put its own quality / brand on the balance, but Mantic Games has nothing of the sort. Their KoW line is desperatly generic fantasy miniatures, and their lore is a joke. As for their quality...average isn't a strong point enough to swoon the customers. Especially since you're meant to build and paint a very high number of them, so if you're not enthousiasmed by them, you will struggle finishing the army (unless you hire someone else to do it in your place ).
kodos wrote: Most 3D shops are cheap because they are a hobby, not a business
False. If they're shops, they're a business. And businesses must follow laws in their countries. Sure, some may illegally do it without all the taxes and all...but that's illegal. That's like selling Mantic miniatures "fallen from a truck" at dirt cheap prices.
Prices are low simply because competition is fierce and numerous. Law of the market.
and that you can print yourself for cheaper, well you don't have to pay someone for the work either
Indeed, it's even cheaper if you own your own 3D printer.
And honestly ? For regimental games like KoW that asks a fething ton of miniatures...that's precisely the kind of situation when investing in one is the question that can seriously be asked. If you just play to skirmish games and use a dozen miniatures from time to time, it's not worth the hassle. But if you have to build and paint 250+ miniatures...maybe cutting the costs with production isn't such a bad idea, in the end. A small 3d printer is quickly funded in that case, even if you use it only for yourself.
KoW is a game with a heavy time consuming hobby and asking for quite a lot of ressources, that's exactly what 3D printing is meant for.
and cheap plastic is nothing new, not even cheap fantasy plastic and WGA or Northstar is as much competing with Mantic as is Victrix or Perry
Yes, that as well. They're not in a very good situation for quite a lot of time now, and if they (or their fans) don't even aknowledge the problem...welp, they'll be the next on the list to go, that's all.
but the argument was that model quality is better with 3D print, which of course if you do themat home a print as long as you get one that is perfect (which can be the first or the 10th)
Actually has more to do with the 3D printer maintenance than random luck.
Mantic’s issue is not that their plastics are generic, but that they are NOT generic. Oathmark makes generic plastics. WGA make generic plastics. Oathmark and WGA both make orcs/goblins so similar and bland it’s hard to tell them apart. Mantic’s orcs are often criticized for not fitting in with the more generic model lines. Mantic’s Halflings and Tomb Kings skeletons and Dwarfs and Elfs all have issues with broad appeal because they have a specific design aesthetic that doesn’t fit in with generic fantasy ranges.
And their lore is better than most non-GW fantasy games’ lore.
Sarouan wrote: False. If they're shops, they're a business. And businesses must follow laws in their countries. Sure, some may illegally do it without all the taxes and all...but that's illegal. That's like selling Mantic miniatures "fallen from a truck" at dirt cheap prices.
Prices are low simply because competition is fierce and numerous. Law of the market.
those that are a business are not cheap, not even with the numerous competition
and this has nothing to do with paying taxes, just because it is a hobby does not mean you don't pay taxes from additional income
and for most it is just that, additional income made by a hobby, in the garage. they don't calculate for energy, time or investments, just material cost and a small profit
those that are a full grown business, and make their living from it and/or have employees to pay, 3D prints are more expensive than regular Resin casts simply because 3D printing is the most expensive way for mass-production and only works if you expect very low sales over time
A couple functional notes, as a person with a 3D printer who has printed armies for KOW:
If you don't have a printer already, I'd say printing your first army costs about the same as buying it from Mantic (and less than GW, which is one of the most expensive ways you can buy an army while also being the easiest). This includes the cost of the printer, the resin, the files, the misprints and all the extra stuff you didn't expect you'd need but definitely will.
If you do already have a printer, a full army probably costs like $50-100, depending on how much you're paying for files and how much/what resin you use.
Despite having a printer, I still choose to buy traditional models at times, because I can buy them from my LGS, don't have to wait for them to print, don't have to clean up the mess from them, and working with plastic or cast resin has its appeal. Plus there are still some genuinely cool sculpts being produced traditionally (Mierce often, GW for their smaller games, even Mantic occasionally).
However one of the reasons I got into printing is that I've cleaned up mold lines for decades and if there's one thing 3D printed minis don't have, it's mold lines
Speaking of, strong chance I'll go in on the Mantic Ogres, as the prices are better than expected, the material has been improved, the sculpts are good, and I feel like I owe it to the company to do a Mantic army at some point
EDIT: I actually like what Shieldwolf is putting out for mass fantasy armies. Bit rough and ready but good price and quality with some life to it.
Calling what Mantic miniatures have an "aesthetic" is a bit generous, I feel. They tend to look like they are drawing from the same source material as GW, but have never seen that material and have only had it vaguely described to them. The not-Tomb Kings are the most blatant example of this, they look like the sculptor tried to go for a slight egyptian theme, but had never seen anything egyptian, they inferred what real world egyptian looks like from looking at Tomb Kings. They're not derivative of Tomb Kings but they are derivative of whatever Mantic imagines Tomb Kings are derivative of.
They don’t have the big head crests or the headband-and-flaps look that define tomb kings. They are definitely trying to make Egyptian-flavored minis, but they have deliberately gone in a different direction, with full helmets, armor and tabards. They look more like they are inspired by old BSG and later Stargate seasons than actual history, though;I’ll give you that.
But generic? I don’t see it. They would have been better served with a more bare aesthetic, naked skellies with Egyptian head cloths or Tut masks.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Mantic’s issue is not that their plastics are generic, but that they are NOT generic.
Yes, exactly. They're meant to be tied to their KoW brand, but they don't feel that way at all.
And their lore is better than most non-GW fantasy games’ lore.
Which is why no one remembers them too.
kodos wrote:those that are a business are not cheap, not even with the numerous competition
and this has nothing to do with paying taxes, just because it is a hobby does not mean you don't pay taxes from additional income
and for most it is just that, additional income made by a hobby, in the garage. they don't calculate for energy, time or investments, just material cost and a small profit
those that are a full grown business, and make their living from it and/or have employees to pay, 3D prints are more expensive than regular Resin casts simply because 3D printing is the most expensive way for mass-production and only works if you expect very low sales over time
Nope, some shops do base their business on mass production - they in fact encourage that by making reductions if you buy a bundle of same miniatures at the same size (easier to produce if everything is standardized already, which is often a plus-value from the most professionnal of them).
They're sure different from the shops that use 3D printing as a side business with selling regular games / boardgames, but they do exist as well. There are a lot of offers on the market, depending on where you are.
But that's actually a fair important point with here :
Boss Salvage wrote:A couple functional notes, as a person with a 3D printer who has printed armies for KOW:
If you don't have a printer already, I'd say printing your first army costs about the same as buying it from Mantic (and less than GW, which is one of the most expensive ways you can buy an army while also being the easiest). This includes the cost of the printer, the resin, the files, the misprints and all the extra stuff you didn't expect you'd need but definitely will.
If you do already have a printer, a full army probably costs like $50-100, depending on how much you're paying for files and how much/what resin you use.
Despite having a printer, I still choose to buy traditional models at times, because I can buy them from my LGS, don't have to wait for them to print, don't have to clean up the mess from them, and working with plastic or cast resin has its appeal. Plus there are still some genuinely cool sculpts being produced traditionally (Mierce often, GW for their smaller games, even Mantic occasionally).
However one of the reasons I got into printing is that I've cleaned up mold lines for decades and if there's one thing 3D printed minis don't have, it's mold lines
...and that's the main problem with Mantic Games. It depends the degree of fanboyism their customers are, to be dedicated to buy their miniatures even when the plus value compared to 3D printing isn't that much...
...especially when you don't have a LGS near your home selling them. Because when you have to pay supplementary taxes and wait more time before you get your miniatures, that question is much more struggling.
We're coming to this, in the end. In Europe, that problem has been made even more relevant with Brexit and import taxes. GW can absorb them by themselves and their own shops...but not Mantic Games. They're still stuck on their island, and depends on independant sellers to sell their stuff.
Let's just say in France (and Belgium), that part has been burned hard with the disaster with Victoria Games. Rest of Europe isn't looking well.
lord_blackfang wrote:Calling what Mantic miniatures have an "aesthetic" is a bit generous, I feel. They tend to look like they are drawing from the same source material as GW, but have never seen that material and have only had it vaguely described to them. The not-Tomb Kings are the most blatant example of this, they look like the sculptor tried to go for a slight egyptian theme, but had never seen anything egyptian, they inferred what real world egyptian looks like from looking at Tomb Kings. They're not derivative of Tomb Kings but they are derivative of whatever Mantic imagines Tomb Kings are derivative of.
Yep, my feeling too.
Halflings and ogres are nice, don't misunderstand me...but well...it feels like a commission made by a random 3D sculptor who has a vague idea, but no strong design behind other than "smaller humans but with child proportions" and "bulkier humans with rasta hair for females".
Oh! It's actually not easy to get Mantic from my LGS, I was more gesturing toward GW being extremely easy to buy locally. When I (rarely) get Mantic stuff it's from online sellers, tho one LGS here is getting better about taking my club's preorders for the yearly books, and they stocked Armada for the launch, even if that game has failed to stick the landing with my club.
As for the Empire of Dust, I always got 'Star Gate but make it chunky' vibes from Mantic's sculpts and less 'The Mummy but I flipped through a Rome / Egypt history book once' shtick that the Dub's neo-Egyptian Undead have.
AND since we've resurrected the old Mantic vs Games Workshop horse, I'll note that Dub has once again vacuously promoted The Old World the very week that Kings of War's latest book has hit wide (American) distribution. Nothing new to say except talking about the armies not present in AOS (Brets, Tomb Kings) and showing a map again. Class act is class. I feel like Fantasy holdouts might actually get a game in the next five years if KOW keeps being successful
So I can tell in comparison to what does, let's say, Artisan Guild's 3d models, I can totally say Mantic Games models do pale in comparison in term of quality and design (bubbles in resin, I can also do it myself with my 3D printer for cheaper than what I bought them on Mantic Games' online shop, import taxes included).
Saying you can print stuff for cheaper than RRP is kind of a moot point. That's true of any manufacturer. It's like saying you can paint models at home for less than hiring a commission painter - of course you can. That doesn't mean that the price is too expensive. You're comparing two different things at two different costs. Congratulations, you've just identified how business works.
That's true, but it bears noting that the cost for purchasing printed 3d printed figures has dropped and the cost of Mantic figures has risen, such that in many cases the 3d printed figures are even cheaper than Mantic.
That's trouble for Mantic since in some cases the 3d printed figures are as good or better than Mantic in terms of sculpting, or may be available in what is percieved as a more desirable style. Mantic still has the advantage of producing mostly polystyrene figures which is still a highly desirable material, but they're not alone in that either as Northstar (Oathmark and Frostrgrave) and WGA are on the rise and producing quality HIPS figures that are as cheap or less. None of this to say Mantic makes a bad product or is necessarily in danger, but we are looking at a market where just being cheap isn't enough anymore.
When I realized I could get 3d printed line troop figures (Chaos warriors in this case) of high quality for around a $1.25 each, it was clear something was changing.
That doesn't exactly counter my point. You can get 3D printed models or likewise 3D print models yourself for less than most companies charge because certain overheads aren't present in those cases. Packaging, retail, etc. Is it good for you? Yes. Does it mean that x company is over charging? Not really.
Add into that that 3D printing doesn't really have production concerns as much as any other materials and once again, you're comparing apples to oranges and asking why the apple is bad at being the orange. Because they're different.
I agree that nothing I put forth indicates that Mantic is overcharging. I don't think that in most cases they are. My point is more that the market for affordable minis is getting more competitive.
As for apples, oranges, whatever I won't argue the semantics except to say that a company's overhead, production methods, packaging, etc is largely immaterial to the buyer who is open to alternate figures sources. The bottom line for the customer is that if you want cheap wargaming figures, there are more options than there were a couple years ago (when Mantic was almost the cheapest source out there) and the quality of those options has risen considerably.
For the purchaser who is happy with the Mantic sculpts -which are generally good figures and representative of Mantic's fluff- and appreciates that they are less expensive than many other companies, Mantic is a good bet and the likely choice. For the buyer who has no particular connection to Mantic's fluff, and may not value the packaging and retail presence (though those are improving as well from alternate producers), other manufacturers and 3d print providers are undercutting the price point that Mantic formerly had a near monopoly over and simultaneously producing figures that are arguably as-good-or-better in quality.
What is it with a small minority of people trying to push everyone to 3D print. 3D printing is a hobby in and of itself, I don't have time or desire to do it. Neither do many wargamers. Hell most wargamers I know find painting an army a chore.
Back to the news the new ogres look really nice. They have moved away from the tiny legged almost comical look of the originals and thats good on all accounts. Mantics model design and quality has definitely improved over the last couple of years and KoW has become much more popular. I hope they have the funding to keep putting out new plastics like this without resorting to kickstarters all the time.
Tamereth wrote: What is it with a small minority of people trying to push everyone to 3D print. 3D printing is a hobby in and of itself, I don't have time or desire to do it. Neither do many wargamers. Hell most wargamers I know find painting an army a chore.
Back to the news the new ogres look really nice. They have moved away from the tiny legged almost comical look of the originals and thats good on all accounts. Mantics model design and quality has definitely improved over the last couple of years and KoW has become much more popular. I hope they have the funding to keep putting out new plastics like this without resorting to kickstarters all the time.
100% agree with all of this. Yes, I have been printing for years and have done whole armies that look spectacular, but it will never replace the aspect of stores selling minis. You hit it on the head - not everyone wants to get into an extra hobby (rabbit hole) of 3D prininting. And, it is a DEEP rabbit hole!
Tamereth wrote: What is it with a small minority of people trying to push everyone to 3D print. 3D printing is a hobby in and of itself, I don't have time or desire to do it. Neither do many wargamers. Hell most wargamers I know find painting an army a chore.
Back to the news the new ogres look really nice. They have moved away from the tiny legged almost comical look of the originals and thats good on all accounts. Mantics model design and quality has definitely improved over the last couple of years and KoW has become much more popular. I hope they have the funding to keep putting out new plastics like this without resorting to kickstarters all the time.
100% agree with all of this. Yes, I have been printing for years and have done whole armies that look spectacular, but it will never replace the aspect of stores selling minis. You hit it on the head - not everyone wants to get into an extra hobby (rabbit hole) of 3D prininting. And, it is a DEEP rabbit hole!
Yup. I have a printer. It's fun to print one-offs, but I have absolutely zero interest in printing entire armies with it, both for the hassle involved in that quantity of printing and for the fact that the end result winds up being resin, which is not ideal for gaming miniatures. Given a choice, I'll choose to buy plastic over printing, because it's less work and more durable. (And that's not even going down the rabbit hole of 3rd party miniatures sculpted by hobbyists with no regard for their printability and/or practicality on the table...)
When someone comes up with an affordable desktop printer that prints (reliably!) in HIPS with a comparable quality to resin printers, that may change, but until that point I expect that injection moulded plastic will remain the ideal for most gamers.
The thing with 3D printing is that it's not just about overall cost.
I would rather pay money than have to house, maintain, supply and learn to use a 3D printer.
I would rather clean, assemble and paint kits form a wargaming company, because it's relaxing.
I only have so much time and space.
I generally prefer Mantic miniatures to GW.
I am not looking for a fragile, technically marvellous, sculptures. I want gaming pieces.
Gaming pieces that I can make my own a bit and then paint to a table top standard without too much fuss, put in a box and handle constantly for a few hours on a regular basis.
Mantic plastics are great for that. Not as cost effective as they used to be and not the cheapest anymore, but some nicer stuff has been coming out.
GW charges a lot of money for miniatures that are not well suited to wargaming.
Tamereth wrote: What is it with a small minority of people trying to push everyone to 3D print. 3D printing is a hobby in and of itself, I don't have time or desire to do it. Neither do many wargamers. Hell most wargamers I know find painting an army a chore.
Back to the news the new ogres look really nice. They have moved away from the tiny legged almost comical look of the originals and thats good on all accounts. Mantics model design and quality has definitely improved over the last couple of years and KoW has become much more popular. I hope they have the funding to keep putting out new plastics like this without resorting to kickstarters all the time.
I think you may be unnecessarily conflating "3d printing ones own models" and "purchasing 3d printed models". At least half of those advocating 3d printed models are -like myself- advocating purchasing 3d printed models. Functionally, it's no different for the consumer than purchasing any other small-shop models. Something which have always been an option for all and the preference of some.
I certainly don't intend to have my own printer anytime soon, but I've bought a good number of 3D printed models this year
Purchasing 3D printed models was a mixed experience by now
not all came with supports removed (with the possibility it was not cured after to save time/money, so they were cheaper for a reason), some came broken and/or warped, none were cheaper than the normal plastic models
3D prints are usually cheaper than GW, but nearly all other models are cheaper than GW no matter if 3D print or normal casts, while they hardly compete with non-GW plastics for the price alone
you get some special designs that are not available otherwise, be it a historical regiment or fantasy/sci-fi theme that is too niche to be worth casting
the argument that selling 3D prints will replace HIPS because of the price is just naive at best. It can be cheaper if you print yourself (just calculating the raw materials), but commercial mass-production is not there at all
and just because it is cheaper than GW does not mean it is cheaper than HIPS
So Mantic going the way to give people/shops the possibility to print their own resin upgrades is less because of the price but the ability to keep up with demand and make it easier to stock their product line
Honestly I'm surprised nobody has done STL upgrade bits before now, it seems like the perfect plan. Even if you give them away, it costs nothing but a little sculptor time and drives sales of the base HIPS kit that you have a massive profit margin on.
kodos wrote: Purchasing 3D printed models was a mixed experience by now
not all came with supports removed (with the possibility it was not cured after to save time/money, so they were cheaper for a reason), some came broken and/or warped, none were cheaper than the normal plastic models
3D prints are usually cheaper than GW, but nearly all other models are cheaper than GW no matter if 3D print or normal casts, while they hardly compete with non-GW plastics for the price alone
you get some special designs that are not available otherwise, be it a historical regiment or fantasy/sci-fi theme that is too niche to be worth casting
the argument that selling 3D prints will replace HIPS because of the price is just naive at best. It can be cheaper if you print yourself (just calculating the raw materials), but commercial mass-production is not there at all
Everything above is just barely true, and I would have agreed with you heartily until this year when I looked up and realized how my buying habits were shifting.
Only my observations, but this is the year where I've found that the quality, reliability, affordability and availability hit a tipping point to where purchasing 3d printed figures is appealing to me, a dedicated bargain hunter (cheapskate).
A regiment of 20 Chaos Warriors for $25 is in spitting distance of Mantic and WGA prices. Packs of sci Fi troopers 10 for$12.50 (with 10 unique poses) is a great way to get my gaming dollar if the designs are more appealing than what's available in HIPS. Mass production isn't necessary when artists license out their work, a slew of small shop printers vie to meet demand and their battles for buyers bring the prices down to my level
Yes multipart HIPS is awesome, a better material that I will continue to buy, and not likely to go anywhere, and yes Mantic puts out a good product that is price competitive. However, things are changing in the 3d printing realm that are going to take increasingly large bites out of the market.
Yes multipart HIPS is awesome, a better material that I will continue to buy, and not likely to go anywhere, and yes Mantic puts out a good product that is price competitive. However, things are changing in the 3d printing realm that are going to take increasingly large bites out of the market.
Can"t exalt this more. This is exactly what I meant.
World is changing, customer habits too...and Mantic Games that is constantly trying to surf on his reputation of being "cheap wargames" is faced with a lot of price hikes because of new factors that keep growing, and that they can't ignore anymore.
You may try to ignore this reality, but it's still there.
By the way,3D printing has nothing to do with crypto, because we do have a physical product in our hands at the end. Here, the digital is just a mean to an end, not the end in itself that turns out useless.
Old players / fans aren't the problem. They are used to their own habits that are hard to break, and can be more easily faithful. The real trouble are new players, who don't have the same affinity to the "old ways" because they didn't have to grow up with them. They're the more likely to think twice about what is the best in their case, and quickly adapt to more useful, practical habits.
Without a strong community tissue like a network of clubs / dedicated stores, you can't teach them properly "the good ways" to these new customers. GW has that, so they keep attracting new players just fine to keep buying their miniatures, even though they're expensive. Will Mantic Games be able to do the same, or drop the gauntlet by not investing enough time and money into this ?
Because if Mantic Games answer to the recruitment of new blood is "just let the fans do our job without being paid", that won't be enough IMHO.
Well to be honest most printbros still consider having a printer their hobby. At least in my parts. They just tinker and print random junk. Users who see it as a tool for something specific - prototyping, art, minis... are IME still a minority. I see it as a difference between the hobby of having an SUV, or needing an SUV to drive your scuba gear around for doing your actual hobby of scuba diving.
But for sure we should respect any miniatures company that has enough foresight to already be adjusting to a world where printing miniatures at home is trivially easy for a significant chunk of their potential customer base.
I would not consider Mantic cheap in the overall HIPS market
1,75€ for plastic infantry from Mantic is on the upper end with 0,5€ from HAT the lowest you can find and most others are between 0,8 and 1,8€ per model
it is just GW that is way above everyone else and as long as those are there Mantic is the cheap alternative
others are cheaper, but those kits are also more "random" without a specific game in mind so no need to adjust for weapon options etc like the WGA Halflings are cheap but without the possibility to build all models with the same weapon, or Victrix which are cheap but you end up buying more boxes and models you don't need if you build an army with it (doing a Kings of War Army with Victrix Normas won't change much in the overall price although it is cheaper per model)
for 3D prints its different, I bought infantry models for 0,5€ as well but from people printing at home doing at as a hobby or service for fellow wargamers
yet this is not different from 15 years ago when people started resin casting at home, still have a bag full of custom-made resin square bases I paid less than per piece than I would for plain mdf or plastic bases
as long as a lot of people do it as a hobby, prices will be competitive
but I don't expect this to stay that way as with raising energy prices, people will need to compensate those and not just do a basic "how much models can I make with 1L resin = price per model" or stop doing it at all
and commercially available ones are already above the 2€ per model (and often 4-5€) because they have to cover all the costs
kodos wrote: I would not consider Mantic cheap in the overall HIPS market
1,75€ for plastic infantry from Mantic is on the upper end with 0,5€ from HAT the lowest you can find and most others are between 0,8 and 1,8€ per model
it is just GW that is way above everyone else and as long as those are there Mantic is the cheap alternative
others are cheaper, but those kits are also more "random" without a specific game in mind so no need to adjust for weapon options etc like the WGA Halflings are cheap but without the possibility to build all models with the same weapon, or Victrix which are cheap but you end up buying more boxes and models you don't need if you build an army with it (doing a Kings of War Army with Victrix Normas won't change much in the overall price although it is cheaper per model)
for 3D prints its different, I bought infantry models for 0,5€ as well but from people printing at home doing at as a hobby or service for fellow wargamers
yet this is not different from 15 years ago when people started resin casting at home, still have a bag full of custom-made resin square bases I paid less than per piece than I would for plain mdf or plastic bases
as long as a lot of people do it as a hobby, prices will be competitive
but I don't expect this to stay that way as with raising energy prices, people will need to compensate those and not just do a basic "how much models can I make with 1L resin = price per model" or stop doing it at all
and commercially available ones are already above the 2€ per model (and often 4-5€) because they have to cover all the costs
I agree with all this except your estimation of the composition and inherent fragility of the small shop market.
3d printers have indeed lowered the bar of entry for hobby businesspeople and they will certainly affect the legacy metal figure market in similar ways as they seem to be affecting the lasercut terrain market. However, the miniature wargaming hobby has several decades of small shops -both full time businesses and solo part timers- and it's had it's own market trends. Many of these companies (not friends producing for each other) had/have long tenures by offering quality figures at a fraction of the cost of the big dogs, just as we see today and some have enjoyed such longevity that their owners are heading into retirement and selling off the company's assets to new generations of owners.
I've been buying from these sorts of companies for 20 years (and it was going on long before that) and they will likely continue on into the future. The field of hobbyist business printers might winnow a bit, but you're already seeing folks upping their game, building 3d printer farms, etc., and some of them are finding their way into sustainable businesses.
As this is a Mantic thread, it bears recognizing that just what we've heard from them so far does indicate that Mantic may be pushing to the head of the pack in terms of established brand miniature companies at least trying to find ways to work in concert with emerging 3d printing trends. I'm very interested to see what they come up with.
I agree, but this is now the 4th big trend in wargaming were small shops push the hobby (and vice versa) at least what I have seen
we have seen Papercraft, Resin casting, Lasercut and now 3D printing
each driven by a demand from the hobby that was not fulfilled by big companies, in combination with technology or raw material being available for regular people
when everyone had access to high quality printers, papercraft became a thing, also as a cheap alternative to GW for large models like tanks, while it was and still is only a real option for terrain
Resin casting as the materials became available in the hardware stores, and people wanted models/weapons for cheap that GW did not make
the big hype for laser cutters as they became affordable and making wargaming terrain for the fraction of a price of what GW wants, yet not many are left (although almost every school here has a laser cutter now)
3D printing offers more possibility than any past technology, and in combination with the ability to easy scan models and alter them makes it easier to re-produce bits
but the main driving point is simply to be cheaper than GW and get a share of the Warhammer market as 40k sells and GW does not fulfil the demand
so all the small shops can survive because of GWs prices and the market dominance of the GW IPs, if this changes in any way the market will as well and the small shops are the first to vanish
we see also the first non-GW products coming up and neither the models nor the files are cheap. Napoleonic niche armies that will never see a regular casting cost ~180€ for the files alone in good quality (they re-production of existing plastics are way cheaper of course because they compete with HIPS but are also worse in quality)
coming back to Mantic, lets compare the 3, GW, PP and MG GW is shutting down 3D printing wherever it is possible, PP has switched to full 3D printing and we will see if this works out (I doubt it until they get local printing centres as distribution hubs to take full advantage) and MG will be the middle ground by producing HIPS and selling STLs for upgrades
while WotC is going full virtual for D&D doing a no models at all system
kodos wrote: I agree, but this is now the 4th big trend in wargaming were small shops push the hobby (and vice versa) at least what I have seen
we have seen Papercraft, Resin casting, Lasercut and now 3D printing
each driven by a demand from the hobby that was not fulfilled by big companies, in combination with technology or raw material being available for regular people
when everyone had access to high quality printers, papercraft became a thing, also as a cheap alternative to GW for large models like tanks, while it was and still is only a real option for terrain
Resin casting as the materials became available in the hardware stores, and people wanted models/weapons for cheap that GW did not make
the big hype for laser cutters as they became affordable and making wargaming terrain for the fraction of a price of what GW wants, yet not many are left (although almost every school here has a laser cutter now)
3D printing offers more possibility than any past technology, and in combination with the ability to easy scan models and alter them makes it easier to re-produce bits
but the main driving point is simply to be cheaper than GW and get a share of the Warhammer market as 40k sells and GW does not fulfil the demand
so all the small shops can survive because of GWs prices and the market dominance of the GW IPs, if this changes in any way the market will as well and the small shops are the first to vanish
we see also the first non-GW products coming up and neither the models nor the files are cheap. Napoleonic niche armies that will never see a regular casting cost ~180€ for the files alone in good quality (they re-production of existing plastics are way cheaper of course because they compete with HIPS but are also worse in quality)
coming back to Mantic, lets compare the 3, GW, PP and MG GW is shutting down 3D printing wherever it is possible, PP has switched to full 3D printing and we will see if this works out (I doubt it until they get local printing centres as distribution hubs to take full advantage) and MG will be the middle ground by producing HIPS and selling STLs for upgrades
while WotC is going full virtual for D&D doing a no models at all system
I think you're mostly looking at a the GW and GW competition side of the equation and trends of the last 10 years which is a pretty slim window given the ubiquity and history of small shops outside that arena. A few things.
-Papercraft has always been a niche hobby (with limited wargaming overlap) and continues to be so, along with laser cut card. As you point out it's been primarily in the terrain market and never really made a big on miniatures. How many times have we actually seen papercraft tanks on the table? I don't see much different in the papercraft, MDF and laser-cut-card trends which are mostly just slightly different ways of serving the same niche.
-Resin casting in wargaming has a 3+ decade history in miniatures, parts, terrain and vehicles. Maybe it's on the decline, maybe not, but it's by no means a brief wave.
-Metal is and has been a staple of small shops for even longer. It's clearly out of favor in the big-name games, but that's not surprising. It chugs along in a more limited capacity.
-Napoleonics is an interesting aspect you've mentioned a few times. It has benefited massively from increased plastics in the past decade, and yet it still has a robust amount of metal miniatures in the market. Often this is to supplement plastic lines. However there are also as entire metal ranges serving metal versions of standard units and also unique units that cannot be replaced in HIPS. This will probably be affected by 3d Printing, but more gradually as metal for napoleonics isn't generally (though there are exceptions) terribly expensive. Plus historical gamers have a long-view that differs from many sci-fi and fantasy gamers. Purchasing some quality metal miniatures at a premium price is not as big an emotional hit when you know they will never go out-of-style, will be playable in various rulesets for decades and changing "meta" is simply not an issue.
$180 for the files for a Napoleonic army may seem expensive, but it's not terribly when compared to the higher end of the naps/historical market and it's even less surprising compared to the cost to commission and put into production a range of metal figures (something some hobbyists are still willing to do). Printing an entire army ends up looking quite affordable, plus over time if the demand is there, the market will grow, competition will grow, prices will cut, etc.... I
-Lastly, -and similar to my earlier post- I don't think the 3d market needs to rely soley on GW ubiquity for success, nor will it necessarily be fragile because of it. Whomever is the big-dog in the wargaming world will have the most knock-offs and peripheral companies serving it's market, but other niches await to be filled. Witness the increase in models for role playing, Legion, and other such needs. Small shops might suffer if a market changes, but they've weathered such changes before. Compared to resin or metal casting, when the market changes it's far easier to just buy the rights to a new set of STL's and load them up. A metal or resin producer has to commission a new set of masters, make molds, and cast new figures. Given the incredible growth in the availability of STL's it's never been easier for a small shop to change it's product range nearly overnight.
first of all, I mean those things done by regular people, not professionals or as business
like Resin casting is old, but 15-20 years ago it made the jump into the hobby as "something everyone can do at home without much afford", similar as 3D printing now
and like 2/3 of the people in the Club made their own casting, with only 2 doing their own unique masters and the rest just copied existing models (similar like 3D printing now) and from all those doing it in Europe, 2-3 made the jump to become professional and are still around today (hence why I don't think many of the small hobby printers will last very long)
and at least here, Papercraft was the main source for Wargaming for a long time
like the old crowed started with Papercraft infantry, tanks and terrain because this was available and cheap (this changed with the 1/72 models from Revell became a thing as ordering metal models was not only expansive but also complicated)
and you still can buy papercraft books with pre-cut models for easy gaming
$180 for the files for a Napoleonic army may seem expensive, but it's not terribly when compared to the higher end of the naps/historical market and it's even less surprising compared to the cost to commission and put into production a range of metal figures (something some hobbyists are still willing to do). Printing an entire army ends up looking quite affordable, plus over time if the demand is there, the market will grow, competition will grow, prices will cut, etc.... I
yeah, hence the focus around GW as for non-GW the 3D printing market looks very different and why "20€ for a full 40k army" is not a good argument for "3D printing is the future and will replace HIPS"
-Lastly, -and similar to my earlier post- I don't think the 3d market needs to rely soley on GW ubiquity for success, nor will it necessarily be fragile because of it.
well, I think the success of the 3D printing market will be by doing niche products that are not worth doing otherwise and will replace the resin bits markets in the long run while all the small GW focused ones won't that rely on the need of a cheap 40k meta army, won't last
again, talking for the regular people doing it at home as a side job, companies like Raging Heroes or Puppet Wars are a different story and I won't consider them "small" ones (as they have shown to be able to adjust to the market and shifting their focus)
and printing does not replace other methods were the demand is higher, as yes a shop can easily adept to the changing market, but this again is very GW focused as this is the only market were such changes are needed
(Legion is a good example for a niche market as the game as not model agnostic, you need to purchase the original ones for the rules/cards and the demand on alternate sculpts is low so a regular casting process to make a new Leia not worth it)
kodos wrote: I agree, but this is now the 4th big trend in wargaming were small shops push the hobby (and vice versa) at least what I have seen
It's curious that you consider it a new trend.
I started wargaming with 15mm ancient and medieval (DBM, if you want to know).
Small companies selling a bit of your hobby stuff is the norm and has been for decades.
It's pretty much an amalgamation of cottage industries that mail figures worldwide.
Especially at smaller scales.
The difference is that that kind of wargaming is about enabling hobbyists to engage with something they're interested in; rather than marketing a "game system" to buy into.
Tamereth wrote: What is it with a small minority of people trying to push everyone to 3D print.
Whenever I see these people posting I just mentally swap "3D printing" for "crypto" and it all falls into place.
3D printing is going to the moon, bro!
Filament hands!
As much as I find this hillarious (and I do), the truth is that...
Sarouan wrote: [
...,3D printing has nothing to do with crypto, because we do have a physical product in our hands at the end. Here, the digital is just a mean to an end, not the end in itself that turns out useless.
3d printing isn't an ethereal intangible like crypto. It's a tool that results in entirely tangible results like any other tool in a workshop. As for the uses we're discussing here, it's simply a faster (often cheaper) way to get toy soldiers into the hands of wargamers. More advances are surely in the works, and todays printers will be woefully outdone by whatever we have in a decade, but the cat is out of the bag and individuals and small shops now have the means of production more accessible than perhaps ever before.
3D printing solves one big issue that is there since the beginning of wargaming, distribution
that there might be someone producing the one thing you want/need, but shipping is impossible or too expensive
also the option that shops don't need to stock every single item but can print on demand where only small numbers are needed, which brings the overall cost down
a reason why PPs way of doing it is strange, as it just replaces regular casting but does not take the advantage of having multiple small factories around the world
kodos wrote: I agree, but this is now the 4th big trend in wargaming were small shops push the hobby (and vice versa) at least what I have seen
It's curious that you consider it a new trend.
not new, and not something companies do, but the 4th time a trend/technology get affordable enough that the gamers themselves fulfill the demand the companies cannot
and when I started it was almost impossible to get stuff from "the world", not many speaking english, none having a credit card and ordering blisters often get a random one from that faction and not the specific one you wanted
like it took me 3 orders at the mail order to finally get a cannon, because the other 2 times I got a mortar and the order always wrote "empire war machine" but I always asked for an empire cannon
papercraft, resin casting or MDF became a thing, not for shops but for hobbyist to sell to fellow wargamers, because things were not able to get otherwise
kodos wrote: 3D printing solves one big issue that is there since the beginning of wargaming, distribution
that there might be someone producing the one thing you want/need, but shipping is impossible or too expensive...
...and when I started it was almost impossible to get stuff from "the world", not many speaking english, none having a credit card and ordering blisters often get a random one from that faction and not the specific one you wanted
like it took me 3 orders at the mail order to finally get a cannon, because the other 2 times I got a mortar and the order always wrote "empire war machine" but I always asked for an empire cannon
Excellent point.
I hadn't thought about the international implications of 3d printing. In a country where acquiring miniatures is more onerous a 3d printing producer/farm located there can acquire whatever STL's the market demands and take the hassle of international shipping and customs right out of the equation. I imagine it would be even easier since deals can be conducted in whatever form of electronic payment is most common in that country.
Excellent point.
I hadn't thought about the international implications of 3d printing. In a country where acquiring miniatures is more onerous a 3d printing producer/farm located there can acquire whatever STL's the market demands and take the hassle of international shipping and customs right out of the equation. I imagine it would be even easier since deals can be conducted in whatever form of electronic payment is most common in that country.
The problem with that approach is that the further you spread out in that manner, the harder it is to keep tabs on the quality of the prints being produced. This is a problem with 3D printing in general, from a business point of view... the miniatures that make it onto the table are going to be what the company is judged on. If all anyone sees is dodgy prints, that potentially winds up skewing the perception of the brand.
The bigger problem from a business perspective is that once the STLs are out in the wild, there is absolutely no way of stopping them from being shared around. I suspect that we won't see GW selling digital models until there is some reliable way of embedding DRM into them.
Offering conversion parts to supplement physical models is a nice middle ground approach. The main problem with it is that unless those parts are also sold in physical form, it restricts them to those with access to printers, which is going to make people who can't get them grumpy - see any discussion over the last 30 years or so of event-specific models sold only in person at the event.
3D printing is absolutely going to change the industry, but we're currently in a really awkward mid-phase where it's only available to some people and needs some significant improvements to become more widespread. And until that happens, it's difficult for miniature producers to completely embrace it.
don't think that bad prints will have a big influence on the company's reputation
Foregworld models were bad, really bad and the reliable way of saying if it is a Chinese/Russian re-cast or not was if it is not warped and has no failures, it is a re-cast
same as people still buy Finecast with "it is not that bad"
at the same time Mantic Resin is one of the best out there and cheap compared to GW, yet people talking as if it is worse than FW or Finecast.
and Ronnie siad that 3D prints will be in addition to the regular Resin casting, not replacing it
I have a lot of time for Mantic, I've met Ronnie Renton and his enthusiasm is great. At the moment I'm only really buying Terrain crate sets. I backed the Vanguard kickstarter but that's still sitting in a box up in the loft.
Kings of War was something I tried getting my gaming group into, I even bought several armies so they could us one of mine to play but still no interest. Sadly i think the ship has sailed with regards to ever getting anyone playing it.
The bigger problem from a business perspective is that once the STLs are out in the wild, there is absolutely no way of stopping them from being shared around. I suspect that we won't see GW selling digital models until there is some reliable way of embedding DRM into them.
I'm a sculptor myself. There's a reason why Kickstarter, Patreon and other pre-sale or subscription services are the bedrock of how everyone makes their money, it allows a small window where the models are for sale, but not for download, so piracy (and the even worse matter of illegal STL resellers) isn't an issue.
I'm not too surprised Mantic are offering it within the context of upgrade parts for their HIPs kits though, even if those end up widely pirated, you still need the Mantic minis to make use of them.
at the same time Mantic Resin is one of the best out there and cheap compared to GW, yet people talking as if it is worse than FW or Finecast.
I think it depends what kind of resin they use with their production.
I loved my resin fire elemental (flexible, easy to cut), but hated the resin halfling upgrades (too britle, too thin parts). They were definitely not the same resin.
and Ronnie siad that 3D prints will be in addition to the regular Resin casting, not replacing it
It was specifically about upgrade sets, I think the stl were meant to replace them because they're not profitable.
Excellent point.
I hadn't thought about the international implications of 3d printing. In a country where acquiring miniatures is more onerous a 3d printing producer/farm located there can acquire whatever STL's the market demands and take the hassle of international shipping and customs right out of the equation. I imagine it would be even easier since deals can be conducted in whatever form of electronic payment is most common in that country.
The problem with that approach is that the further you spread out in that manner, the harder it is to keep tabs on the quality of the prints being produced. This is a problem with 3D printing in general, from a business point of view... the miniatures that make it onto the table are going to be what the company is judged on. If all anyone sees is dodgy prints, that potentially winds up skewing the perception of the brand.
The bigger problem from a business perspective is that once the STLs are out in the wild, there is absolutely no way of stopping them from being shared around. I suspect that we won't see GW selling digital models until there is some reliable way of embedding DRM into them.
Offering conversion parts to supplement physical models is a nice middle ground approach. The main problem with it is that unless those parts are also sold in physical form, it restricts them to those with access to printers, which is going to make people who can't get them grumpy - see any discussion over the last 30 years or so of event-specific models sold only in person at the event.
3D printing is absolutely going to change the industry, but we're currently in a really awkward mid-phase where it's only available to some people and needs some significant improvements to become more widespread. And until that happens, it's difficult for miniature producers to completely embrace it.
Yeah, I wasn't addressing GW themselves or even the private individuals with printers where it's near impossible to regulate. More the many artists who sell STL's with reproduction rights. Of course there's the matter of enforcement in another country, but the dispersal of printing farms still means there are ways for the purchase of a 3d printed model to happen across borders in ways that are not possible with other materials.
I do think we'll see cheap or free STL's designed for a customizing a company's miniatures becoming quite common. They'll probably be a loss leader, but they could drive sales of a base kit. You could also see a limited number of highly-regulated "licensed" shops selling these 3d printed parts under agreement with the manufacturer. The files might still get out though....
I'm a sculptor myself. There's a reason why Kickstarter, Patreon and other pre-sale or subscription services are the bedrock of how everyone makes their money, it allows a small window where the models are for sale, but not for download, so piracy (and the even worse matter of illegal STL resellers) isn't an issue.
I'm not too surprised Mantic are offering it within the context of upgrade parts for their HIPs kits though, even if those end up widely pirated, you still need the Mantic minis to make use of them.
Thanks for that explanation. Makes alot of sense and I hadn't heard it explained quite that way before.
I was scrubbing through the YouTube video but found the details I was looking for in this Mantic post. Specifically this:
So $4.50-5.00 USD a month. I happily paid $20 a year for EasyArmy (RIP), triple that for an app I don't particularly want isn't the best feel, however it does seem like there's at least initially a freeware version: "We are launching the app with a entry level free tier which will allow you to build TWO full lists per Mantic game." Originally I didn't pay for EA either, but now that I have dozens of lists saved on there I clearly haven't looked back
I dunno, call me ambivalent. I'm just hoping that it still works in browser, I use my phone too much as it is and prefer to mess with lists on my (work) comp
Interesting. I'm not totally against paying $5 a month for an app depending on what it offers. I only really need KoW functionality though.
In fact, I'm about to cancel my Easy Army subscription because I found a free version.
Also, it's a bit of apples and oranges, but once you've experienced the ease of use of the free army list builders offered by One Page Rules for their games, it does make one less interested in paying for such a product.
I'll continue to use the pen and paper, like a primitive savage I am.
Is the true way, we play tactile games to escape the ever increasing digital world. It might be my age, but I'm a bit fed up with apps for this that and the other, especially in Table Top Wargaming, just feels unnecessary and intrusive.
£60 a year for the occasional times I use the army builder? Far too pricey for me.
I like to read my lore in books (I hope this app doesn't replace that) and I can do the army building using pen/paper.
60 quid could get me a few games for my PC off Steam which would provide hours more value than an army builder app.
Sorry Mantic.
As a counter example, I use EasyArmy almost constantly during the workday, as my mind is a-buzz with army ideas thanks to KOW's level of army balance, model agnosticism, and my 3D printer. And yet I'm not entirely behind the price either
It's good, but will absolutely need offline functionality before I'll pay for it.
I have my digital rulebooks and army builders on my tablet, where I can read them on a reasonably-sized screen, but one that doesn't have internet when out and about.
It's been either battlescribe or paper printouts for me for army building and .pdfs on a cheap lightweight tablet bought just to have digital rulebooks on.
kodos wrote: The free part will be enough for me and offline availablity will be a big plus over easyarmy
I'm not sure there is offline functionality. From what I have heard this is not an app as such - it is a website optimised for both desktop and mobile.
Just read the notice when I logged into Easy Army that renewals are canceled and anyone with subscriptions months remaining will have those months tacked on to the end of the free-period of the Mantic app.
So I guess I don't have to cancel my renewals as I was planning too. I'm not sure I like the math hammer section, but I'm equally sure it will be just what some players want. I notice the rulebooks will be included. That's genuinely interesting, but I do like dead tree editions for rulebooks.
Overall, the app looks mildly interesting and I'll check it out during the free period. In the end though, I'll probably just stick with paper books and the tacticalwargames free list builder.
I have a mildy random question about KoW 3e, as I haven't played since 2e.
How crucial is the base sizing for infantry if you're not planning on tournament play? I've been moving to 25mm round bases on my fantasy stuff, thanks to lots of indie skirmish games and Oathmark.
Does the 20mm basing for human-sized infantry serve any real purpose beyond, "We started out doing it the way WHFB, so we're sticking with that"? Does the extra 25mm of unit frontage REALLY make that big of a difference if you want to keep ranks of five?
Psychopomp wrote: I have a mildy random question about KoW 3e, as I haven't played since 2e.
How crucial is the base sizing for infantry if you're not planning on tournament play? I've been moving to 25mm round bases on my fantasy stuff, thanks to lots of indie skirmish games and Oathmark.
Does the 20mm basing for human-sized infantry serve any real purpose beyond, "We started out doing it the way WHFB, so we're sticking with that"? Does the extra 25mm of unit frontage REALLY make that big of a difference if you want to keep ranks of five?
As Kings of War doesn't have figure removal, base size is utterly unimportant as long as the unit/element footprint is right. It can look a little odd in some situations since you can only fit about 11 25mm bases in the space that 20 20mm bases take up, but it matters not at all to friendly gameplay and probably wouldn't even matter in most tournaments. There is a recommended minimum number of figures for each element/unit size in the rulebook, but in practice that's quite squishy.
In our current campaign we even have a player using SOIAF figures. Infantry are on 30mm bases where you can't even fit half as many infantry figures compared to 20mm and while it doesn't look nearly as cool as a densely packed infantry unit, it works fine for play as the footprint of his unit trays are all correct.
Psychopomp wrote: I have a mildy random question about KoW 3e, as I haven't played since 2e.
How crucial is the base sizing for infantry if you're not planning on tournament play? I've been moving to 25mm round bases on my fantasy stuff, thanks to lots of indie skirmish games and Oathmark.
Does the 20mm basing for human-sized infantry serve any real purpose beyond, "We started out doing it the way WHFB, so we're sticking with that"? Does the extra 25mm of unit frontage REALLY make that big of a difference if you want to keep ranks of five?
The unit size (i.e. footprint) makes a difference and is more important to gameplay that the number of models (or the bases individual models are on).
I units that are 4 models wide it you have 25mm bases. I made movement trays that are the right size and put as many models as would fit (they were magnetic) on them when I started.
+1 to the unit size mattering far more than the number of models
The rules allow for using bigger bases, but for the most part it's only a negative to up-base. Ask any Orc player how much it sucks having 25mm infantry as opposed to 20mm infantry
It only causes actual issues with aura effects or other abilities based on base size, but you can adjust the aura size down to compensate. There are a few units - shrines typically or things that have very unique rules - that specifically say you can't up-size their base, however those are single big models you aren't likely to be using round based small models for.
The unit-sized tray solution is the most common. You could go hard and make a movement tray with slots for your round models? But the magnetized tray or tray with a lip will get you by before you decide to go ham and multi-base your next army
So my issue is that I don't want equal strength units to have 16 humans vs 20 orcs because of an arbitrary base size difference rooted in "because that's the way some other game did it almost 40 years ago."
I guess my real question is, how badly would it really impact the game if Infantry and Heavy Infantry (that's the 25mm base class, right?) all used the same Heavy Infantry unit footprints across the board?
Psychopomp wrote: I have a mildy random question about KoW 3e, as I haven't played since 2e.
How crucial is the base sizing for infantry if you're not planning on tournament play? I've been moving to 25mm round bases on my fantasy stuff, thanks to lots of indie skirmish games and Oathmark.
Does the 20mm basing for human-sized infantry serve any real purpose beyond, "We started out doing it the way WHFB, so we're sticking with that"? Does the extra 25mm of unit frontage REALLY make that big of a difference if you want to keep ranks of five?
As Kings of War doesn't have figure removal, base size is utterly unimportant as long as the unit/element footprint is right. It can look a little odd in some situations since you can only fit about 11 25mm bases in the space that 20 20mm bases take up, but it matters not at all to friendly gameplay and probably wouldn't even matter in most tournaments. There is a recommended minimum number of figures for each element/unit size in the rulebook, but in practice that's quite squishy.
A regiment of twenty 20mm infantry can fit it twelve 25mm infantry actually - 3 ranks, 4 files. Likewise, a Horde can fit in twenty-four 25mm infantry. I field several armies with 25 mm round or square bases that way.
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Psychopomp wrote: So my issue is that I don't want equal strength units to have 16 humans vs 20 orcs because of an arbitrary base size difference rooted in "because that's the way some other game did it almost 40 years ago."
I guess my real question is, how badly would it really impact the game if Infantry and Heavy Infantry (that's the 25mm base class, right?) all used the same Heavy Infantry unit footprints across the board?
How are 25mm base humans any less arbitrary than 20mm base humans?
As Kings of War doesn't have figure removal, base size is utterly unimportant as long as the unit/element footprint is right. It can look a little odd in some situations since you can only fit about 11 25mm bases in the space that 20 20mm bases take up, but it matters not at all to friendly gameplay and probably wouldn't even matter in most tournaments. There is a recommended minimum number of figures for each element/unit size in the rulebook, but in practice that's quite squishy.
A regiment of twenty 20mm infantry can fit it twelve 25mm infantry actually - 3 ranks, 4 files. Likewise, a Horde can fit in twenty-four 25mm infantry. I field several armies with 25 mm round or square bases that way.
I think you;'re right. I'm not sure why I thought 11. 12 is still less than Mantics "Prefered Model Count" minimum size for a Regiment, but it's enough that it should be fine. I'm building a KOM (or variant, not decided) out of Runewars Daqan figures. They come molded onto 25mm round bases but will largely be representing units that typically come on 20mm squares which would be far too small for them.
I will say also that PMC really becomes useful when using non-mantic calvary. Frequently it's difficult to get 5 Cav into a 125x50mm square. 4 Cav usually fit easily with no problems.
Esmer wrote: How are 25mm base humans any less arbitrary than 20mm base humans?
It consolidates two different base sizes for what are effectively one class of infantry. What makes infantry and heavy infantry different OTHER than the base size? Are they pointed differently for the different unit footprints, somehow? Is there some mechanical weight to the difference other than an extra 25mm of unit frontage?
What I'm asking is, if I have the same bases and the same movement trays for all infantry, does it break anything? Is there some crucial points or rules difference between the two types of infantry, or does it really come down to "lots of infantry come on 20mm bases, and some come on 25mm" and nothing else?
The source of the arbitrary base sizes is that the original base sizes were based off of WHFB base sizes.
I keep to the sizes proscribed by KOW rules. I've got no proof, but I do think there is a slight buff given to the larger based units that is offset by slightly less maneuverability and that unit footprint is one factor considered in their points cost.
When the Varangur list was released I moved my Chaos Warriors army to that list as it seemed more representative than KofMen. I started to play my Huscarls on the standard 100x80 plastic trays I already had used for KofMen, but myself and my opponents felt that they seemed too potent to have the advantage of a smaller base. Might not seen like much difference, but when you're coming around a farmhouse to engage an enemy you realize quickly that every inch matters. I moved them to the larger 125x100 base proscribed by the rules and it feels better and more fair.
If you're going to downsize the base size for a unit that unit is getting a distinct advantage. Inversely, forcing a 20mm based unit onto large infantry size unit footprints puts them at a distinct disadvantage.
All this to say, units have the base they have. It is arbitrary, but it is also figured into their points cost so if you're going to adjust one, to retain balance you'll have to adjust the other.
Esmer wrote: How are 25mm base humans any less arbitrary than 20mm base humans?
It consolidates two different base sizes for what are effectively one class of infantry. What makes infantry and heavy infantry different OTHER than the base size? Are they pointed differently for the different unit footprints, somehow? Is there some mechanical weight to the difference other than an extra 25mm of unit frontage?
What I'm asking is, if I have the same bases and the same movement trays for all infantry, does it break anything? Is there some crucial points or rules difference between the two types of infantry, or does it really come down to "lots of infantry come on 20mm bases, and some come on 25mm" and nothing else?
In KoW unit types like "infantry" and "heavy infantry" are simply a fancy way of describing base size.
The base size makes a surprisingly noticeable difference in game play. It's wouldn't "break the game", but it has more of an effect than having fewer models on infantry units would.
smaller bases have an advantage in maneuverability in KoW that the original base sizes were based upon other games that were available by that does not change that and the game came a long way since
uniform base sizes might be a good idea but the point this is doable is long gone as neither the models nor the collection of the players would fit those any more
that said, if someone has individual based models on round bases, it is way easier to adjust to KoW unit bases than someone with KoW unit bases to adapt a new base size
kodos wrote: smaller bases have an advantage in maneuverability in KoW that the original base sizes were based upon other games that were available by that does not change that and the game came a long way since
uniform base sizes might be a good idea but the point this is doable is long gone as neither the models nor the collection of the players would fit those any more
that said, if someone has individual based models on round bases, it is way easier to adjust to KoW unit bases than someone with KoW unit bases to adapt a new base size
Well said. Standardizing would be especially hard on KOW players since Mantic has been encouraging multibasing for a while now.
Looking at KOW as a whole, I like that the game has different element sizes. Some don't make perfect sense because of their WHFB origins, but in a fantasy world there will be different sized creatures and different sized units. Having 4 distinct infantry sizes gives a bit of variation while still standardizing enough to fit within the streamlined ethos of KOW.
Fun fact : when you play KoW rules with a different scale like 15/10 mm, and you decide for reasons not to use the same unit base size than in the rules but coherent base sizes that are the same no matter the type, you find a lot of troubles that were existing because of that original difference of base sizes become irrelevant. Especially the cavalry and the chariots, that have a way bigger imprint on the battlefield for their actual impact.
Now Mantic Games is stuck because they didn't want to change that original mistake of copy-pasting GW's Warhammer Battle base sizes in previous editions. Now they don't have enough new blood to ignore the anger it would generate amonsgt the veteran players if they decided to correct that (yep, that's how you count on launching a new game on healthy basis instead of using stuff from previous lazy works that forces you to artificially buff units that "perform below average" just because of that difference of base size).
It's not a question of multibasing. It's a question of original bases and optimisation for competition games. And it always ruins the fun in games.
Psychopomp wrote: I have a mildy random question about KoW 3e, as I haven't played since 2e.
How crucial is the base sizing for infantry if you're not planning on tournament play? I've been moving to 25mm round bases on my fantasy stuff, thanks to lots of indie skirmish games and Oathmark.
Does the 20mm basing for human-sized infantry serve any real purpose beyond, "We started out doing it the way WHFB, so we're sticking with that"? Does the extra 25mm of unit frontage REALLY make that big of a difference if you want to keep ranks of five?
Individual base sizes don't matter. Only the unit footprint does. You can have zero figures on the unit footprint and the game works (an easy way to test new units or armies before building them)
Sarouan wrote: Fun fact : when you play KoW rules with a different scale like 15/10 mm, and you decide for reasons not to use the same unit base size than in the rules but coherent base sizes that are the same no matter the type, you find a lot of troubles that were existing because of that original difference of base sizes become irrelevant. Especially the cavalry and the chariots, that have a way bigger imprint on the battlefield for their actual impact.
Now Mantic Games is stuck because they didn't want to change that original mistake of copy-pasting GW's Warhammer Battle base sizes in previous editions. Now they don't have enough new blood to ignore the anger it would generate amonsgt the veteran players if they decided to correct that (yep, that's how you count on launching a new game on healthy basis instead of using stuff from previous lazy works that forces you to artificially buff units that "perform below average" just because of that difference of base size).
It's not a question of multibasing. It's a question of original bases and optimisation for competition games. And it always ruins the fun in games.
When you play in a smaller scale you're typically playing in proportionally larger space. As such the difference in footprint has not nearly the same effect on the game as when you're essentially playing out a full battle on a football field. 28mm KoW is going to be quite vastly different than 15mm KoW.
Mantic could standardize bases, but as folks have said they would have to rebalance points. For myself, I like the varied footprints as there's nothing inherently wrong with them and it adds a bit of variation.
Straight conversion of inches to cm, play on a 3' x 2' board, don't sweat the base sizes too much and it is perfect as a small format fantasy wargame, far better than the command & control push-your-luck system in Warmaster.
upon registration you get the option to use different codes for the free trial subscription but you don't need to (so everyone can test the free stuff first if they want)
and an important side note from the blog regarding Twilight Kin:
With it being a mid-edition refresh, and offering brand new ways to play (Legendary and Ambush) AND trying to minimise book carrying we finally went ahead and added the Unchartered Armies into the main rule book.
We love that you have perhaps come over from another game system – and you got to keep your old army for a while – and so far that transition to having a Mantic version is taking a somewhat sedate pace (7 years and counting!!! 😊) You will see that with the we are really pushing and evolving the development of the Pannithor story. This is an easy task when there have been no predecessors, Trident Realm for example, but much harder when we visit classic tropes, such as the bad elves. Now because our thinking was so radical for TK we opted to take them from the book, so no one else started a new army with the old bad elves and then realised their army didn’t align well with the new TK.
We expect we will be adopting this approach with one army per year. We will of course also be focusing on developing our established armies which will be more evolution rather than revolution in completing every unit entry in the list. Please do remember though that if Mantic haven’t made models for an army previously then we absolutely reserve the right to take the army in whichever and whatever direction we think is cool!
Please do remember though that if Mantic haven’t made models for an army previously then we absolutely reserve the right to take the army in whichever and whatever direction we think is cool!
One would think it obvious and reasonable, but it had to be said.
Please do remember though that if Mantic haven’t made models for an army previously then we absolutely reserve the right to take the army in whichever and whatever direction we think is cool!
One would think it obvious and reasonable, but it had to be said.
Well of course it's obvious and reasonnable. Mantic Games doesn't make profit if people don't buy their miniatures. And people don't buy miniatures if they already have everything in their collection to play the "old bad elves".
But since Mantic Games built its reputation by being "wargamer friendly" - meaning they're not "like that other company that cares only about profit" -, well...it had to be said. So that they can save that reputation.
Even if it was built on lies. That's marketing for you.
Every company wants to make money. Mantic still seems to be making it through the roundabout, long term method of actually building a quality ruleset that fosters a healthy and enjoyable (meta)game.
given with old world around the corner, why should Mantic re-create the evil elves of old times, when those who want them are going to buy them from GW anyway
and the standard Elves army list is (and most of the time already was) better suited to play classic Dark Elves anyway
Straight conversion of inches to cm, play on a 3' x 2' board, don't sweat the base sizes too much and it is perfect as a small format fantasy wargame, far better than the command & control push-your-luck system in Warmaster.
While I can be a harsh critc of KoW, I do think the system would work well for smaller scale, but sadly it is sold as a 28mm game, so hard to get people to switch to a smaller scale.
Only think lacking is some sort of command element.
Sarouan wrote: Well of course it's obvious and reasonnable. Mantic Games doesn't make profit if people don't buy their miniatures. And people don't buy miniatures if they already have everything in their collection to play the "old bad elves".
But since Mantic Games built its reputation by being "wargamer friendly" - meaning they're not "like that other company that cares only about profit" -, well...it had to be said. So that they can save that reputation.
Even if it was built on lies. That's marketing for you.
Knight wrote: we play tactile games to escape the ever increasing digital world. It might be my age, but I'm a bit fed up with apps for this that and the other, especially in Table Top Wargaming, just feels unnecessary and intrusive.
I generally agree with this for similar I'm-not-a-spring-chicken-anymore reasons, but I am hoping that we'll eventually get some apps that can act as capable A.I. opponents for solo tabletop gaming, apps that have enough strategic depth, variety, and capacity to surprise that they'll actually be interesting to play against. That would probably work best for skirmish level games, though, as moving two giant armies around a tabletop could get tedious. (I'm not a fan of the late-game Zombicide experience of moving a gazillion A.I. zombies around the board.)
Not that app-based A.I. would ever be able to simulate playing in the same physical space with human (or extremely well-trained and precocious canine) friends, but that's not always possible.
kodos wrote:given with old world around the corner, why should Mantic re-create the evil elves of old times, when those who want them are going to buy them from GW anyway
and the standard Elves army list is (and most of the time already was) better suited to play classic Dark Elves anyway
Well, they try to make it something Mantic-specific, so that people would want to buy their miniatures. What's best than attachment to the world and its background ? Just selling cheap miniatures can bring you that far if you want to build a strong community with ties to your brand. That's very understandable, in the end. And very GW-like, but since their core come from the same, it's also logical. Apples don't fall far from the tree.
Though I don't agree the standard elves army list is the best suited. It would be more right to say it is in absence of anything more suited...for those who just wanted to use their old GW collection to play, that is.
Sure, those people could go back to the Old World when it's released in the end...because of their attachment to the Old World. That's why GW always made sure to keep releasing products with background specifically and keeping building their world. Just rules isn't enough to make a brand successfull on long term, even if it's "the best rules in the world".
Their old motto - "being wargamer friendly". It was to try to make themselves look like they are nothing like GW. Which was a lie, it was never their main purpose. It was just marketing, to help attract disgrunted players from you know where.
Which is totally fitting to what's they're trying to do now, by making Mantic Games products more brandable in themselves, and not forgettable generic fantasy / SF.
Knight wrote: we play tactile games to escape the ever increasing digital world. It might be my age, but I'm a bit fed up with apps for this that and the other, especially in Table Top Wargaming, just feels unnecessary and intrusive.
I generally agree with this for similar I'm-not-a-spring-chicken-anymore reasons, but I am hoping that we'll eventually get some apps that can act as capable A.I. opponents for solo tabletop gaming, apps that have enough strategic depth, variety, and capacity to surprise that they'll actually be interesting to play against. That would probably work best for skirmish level games, though, as moving two giant armies around a tabletop could get tedious. (I'm not a fan of the late-game Zombicide experience of moving a gazillion A.I. zombies around the board.)
Not that app-based A.I. would ever be able to simulate playing in the same physical space with human (or extremely well-trained and precocious canine) friends, but that's not always possible.
You mean like the last version of Descent ? Making apps to translate "AI behaviour" for miniature tabletop games is already possible. But it's not the same than having a human opponent thinking and reacting to your strategies on the said tabletop.
Honestly, I'm not thrilled to see that day happening, if it happens at all. I too don't like using apps for anything, including the rules. It makes me feel like I'm playing a video game but without the benefits of it - not even talking about the use of my private data and the obligation to be always online to use the main services offered by the said app. But maybe that's because I'm old school (I'm never able to focus on rules when I'm reading it on screen, I need my good old paper book).
I'm always surprised by your level of vitriol, Sarouan, even for DakkaDakka. But anyway:
Sarouan wrote: Their old motto - "being wargamer friendly". It was to try to make themselves look like they are nothing like GW. Which was a lie, it was never their main purpose. It was just marketing, to help attract disgrunted players from you know where.
Which is totally fitting to what's they're trying to do now, by making Mantic Games products more brandable in themselves, and not forgettable generic fantasy / SF.
I always thought Mantic's "wargamer friendly" meant cheap in the beginning, when GW's primary knock was being very expensive. And indeed, their stuff was cheap.
When it became more and more obvious that GW was also quite bad at writing rules, it makes sense that "wargamer friendly" started to mean giving a gak about balance and games themselves, something Mantic was already doing but NuDub took years to eventually catch on to when it became marketable to create balance sheets (even if the games themselves aren't particularly great, or at least very poorly designed to handle growth) because it shows you listen to your players, not just your collectors (see The Old World's marketing based on nostalgia and the armies pushed out of AOS).
Speaking of AOS, "wargamer friendly" at the time the Old World was nuked from orbit also meant giving people a home for their armies, when GW had just swept the rules out from under many players' armies and made them just collections of painted minis. Which was all the Dub really cared about - that, and being able to create an easily brandable fantasy world out of the generic fantasy of WHFB. Calling orcs "Orruks" is jarringly inane to me, but it's definitely litigable
Mantic's "wargamer friendly" is obviously a marketing tool overwhelmingly aimed at Games Workshop, the megalith known for an extended time as being distinctly unfriendly to wargamers, either as gamers or as people with limited hobby funds. As the price of doing business has increased, Mantic's claim on being affordable has dwindled (it's still quite a bit cheaper to make a Mantic Kings of War army than it is a GW Kings of War army or certainly a GW core line army, I reckon about 2/3 the price - it's also WILDLY cheaper to make an entirely legal KOW army without Mantic models, while a non-GW army will involve endless litigation with some players and be banned from official events), making Mantic's friendly claim seem hollow from a money standpoint. And as NuDub has become better and better at modern (i.e. social media) marketing, its learned that not only should you protect and develop your IP in legally distinct ways, but gamers are actually a weirdly important part of GW's market share that want things that collectors and literal children don't (i.e. balance). This hurts Mantic's friendly claim too, making it seem as insidious as the Dub's is, whether or not it is or was.
So I guess yea, Mantic's marketing promise has to sound a lot different now than it did in 2008, however I find it to ring pretty true, even in today's market and up against a smarter, more social media-minded megacorps competitor.
EDIT: I forgot to add, removing Twilight Kin is a weird move and a bit of a bad look re: Point #3 above. The best I can say is that Mantic's transparency has been very good and in the end I can respect the decision that invalidating potentially significant parts of players' new armies when the new list releases in 2023+ would be a worse feel than suspending players' ability to play with their old armies in the interrum. They'll still potentially have to change them to match the new rules, but new armies being invalidated feels worse than old armies being invalidated (I know both from experience, especially as the latter happens fairly often and is a part of collecting a wargaming army, frankly). While I favor letting the old rules roll until the new rules drop, regrettably fething over armies built from 2022-2023+ in the name of progress, I can see that that's not the best or only solution. Also yes, pulling the TK list back means Mantic can do whatever it wants with an otherwise generic and inherited army concept, which will be better in the end (or at least much more fulfilling from a games design perspective).
+++ +++
As for games with apps, Infinity continues to be the only game where having a computer on hand felt appropriate and needed. Dead trees, please.
Sarouan wrote: You mean like the last version of Descent ?
I wouldn't know, I never tried app-driven Descent. I hated Descent 2nd edition without the app, but doubt the app would have changed my mind. It's just not my kind of game. App-driven Mansions of Madness interests me more, but I've not tried that, either. I'm speaking hypothetically; it's quite possible that what I'm hoping for doesn't exist yet in a form sophisticated and elegant enough for me to enjoy playing against it.
Sarouan wrote: Making apps to translate "AI behaviour" for miniature tabletop games is already possible. But it's not the same than having a human opponent thinking and reacting to your strategies on the said tabletop.
Granted, it's not the same, and even if we someday get A.I. that can truly, creatively improvise and react in real-time, it still won't be as rich an experience as playing with friends. (Solo A.I. tabletop gaming might be better than playing with bitter enemies, though. I've never tried that, so it's hard to say.) For what it is, I do expect A.I. solo app-playing will get significantly more sophisticated in the future. Right now it seems to still be baby steps and simple behavioral if/then flowcharts, which is O.K. for a little bit, but gets stale quickly.
Sarouan wrote: Honestly, I'm not thrilled to see that day happening, if it happens at all.
Overruled! I order you to be thrilled to see that day happening.
Kidding. You like what you like, that's fine.
Sarouan wrote: I too don't like using apps for anything, including the rules. It makes me feel like I'm playing a video game but without the benefits of it - not even talking about the use of my private data and the obligation to be always online to use the main services offered by the said app. But maybe that's because I'm old school (I'm never able to focus on rules when I'm reading it on screen, I need my good old paper book).
You forgot to add my personal bête noire: apps that are subscription-based rather than one-time purchases. I'm old and stubborn enough to be willing to go without if that becomes my only option; I haven't touched Adobe Photoshop since it made the switch, may Nurgle gurgle their greedy hearts.
I agree with you on preferring to read on paper v.s. screens, and on resenting my private data being mined and my behavior being algorithmically recorded, analyzed, and profiled.
I guess me buying some solo app in the future would depend on its quality, and how many of my red lines it crosses. Whether such an app is ever likely to come along that ticks all the right boxes for me, I have no idea. Either way, I'll live.
Their old motto - "being wargamer friendly". It was to try to make themselves look like they are nothing like GW. Which was a lie, it was never their main purpose. It was just marketing, to help attract disgrunted players from you know where.
Which is totally fitting to what's they're trying to do now, by making Mantic Games products more brandable in themselves, and not forgettable generic fantasy / SF.
If that really is all you have, it isnt enough to justify the claim made. Not even close.
Just received my KoW Compendium today. Very Impressed. Great to have all the armies and their sub-armies properly grouped and arranged and there are a few new units for my forces that I wasn't aware of having not followed the supplements too closely. The siege rules look like alot of fun and the small and large battle rules are a nice addition.
If someone had just recently bought the rulebook and Uncharted Empires and maybe a Clash or two, this rule book might seem superfluous and a bit of a slap, but that's probably inevitable with a redux/compilation like this.
The only negative I can see is that it's not a hardback so we'll see how durable it is in the long run. However, it is quite large and having everything I want in one book without the fluff I don't is very handy. I don't know that I would have felt the value if I was buying it just for the new material, but having it all together now makes it worthwhile and I'm happy to support Mantic's development of KoW when I can as I don't use their miniatures. All in all, a purchase I'm quite pleased with.
An in addition the following have been moved from metal to resin:-
- Undead Wights Regiment
- Gigas Regiment
- Empire of Dust Revenant Champion/Army Standard Bearer
Did they steal those chibi models from that CMON game for the chariots? I'd kinda like the dragon/wyvern thing if it's head were like 50% smaller and it dropped the awful flame effect.
These are hilariously bad. I was afraid we’d never get to use “Mantic. Almost.” yet here we are.
Considering how goofy the GW snake riders were, Mantic making them look brilliant is a real accomplishment. And the leader with the Zuckerberg death mask? *chef’s kiss*
Automatically Appended Next Post: “They said the old Drakon sculpt could never be topped. They were wrong.” —Fisty Goue Man
nels1031 wrote: The green lizardmen riders on the top pic are pretty legit, as is the beast they are riding on. Everything else is... typical Mantic Games.
Unfortunately, that is my estimation as well.
Also, I really don't like the trend towards more sculpted flames on models. There's almost no feature more difficult for an average painter to get looking good.
I really, really like KOW, but I have not been impressed by the recent miniature releases. That said, Mantic does seem to be moving the game towards a relatively coherent cartoon aesthetic so at least they're trying to differentiate themselves.
I really like the chariots if you replace the awful awful AWFUL mawbeasts with literally anything else. I think I said this earlier but those will be great for everything from Chaos chariots to Beastmen chariots to Orc chariots with different crew and mounts, I'm happy to have those in hard plastic. They'll probably replace my plastic GW Chaos Mortal chariot for my 6th ed remake army. One of the rare times Mantic knocks it out of the park.
The rest just are not good. They're barely mediocre. I hope Ronnie retires soon, love his enthusiasm but I hate how much he's willing to put up with mediocre models just because they look OKish in massed formations. I really fear it will remain "Mantic: Almost" for as long as he's at the helm
ok, first thing we need Mantic or a 3rd party to make some alternative heads for the Mawbeasts
should not be that hard to do and replacing those would improve it by a lot even if the body stays
(I don't mind the beasts per se, but being the same for all armies is a downer, yet If Mantic would sell the old Boars from the chariots as standalone this would help)
for the Firedrake, if the flames/mouth are optional parts and the regular one is included, it would be a great model, otherwise it is ok
that this kind of monster is the same on all armies is less of a problem large monsters being similar around the world was already a thing in Warhammer and looks like the Slasher is the easy to catch and train monster in Pannithor
For me, these aren't even "almost." This is "Mantic: Nope."
Get it together, guys.
Also very surprised to see Mantic using their ancient Renedra-cast Orcs for their new chariots. I don't own any Rift-forged Orcs to check, but I'm not sure the Renedra crew will scale well with them. My impression is that the Rift-forged guys are much larger.
It'll be a large change for me to abandon the fat Mongolian aesthetic of the GW Ogres, but man, I might have to give the new Ogres a thought now that they are not godawful Restic.
I'm big on skirmish games lately, and having hand weapon/shield, two handed weapon, and rifle options all in a single purchase, as well as both genders present, would make a really nice one-stop shop for a skirmish warband, with maybe just a supplemental purchase of an extra-special leader/mage character to lead them.
I'm here for the derpiness of these sculpts, including the dumb chariot beast heads and the goofy sandsnakes. Tho in the latter case, all that random goop is a bummer and feels like somebody just didn't want to sculpt ribs or armor
Maccwar wrote: An in addition the following have been moved from metal to resin:-
- Undead Wights Regiment
- Gigas Regiment
- Empire of Dust Revenant Champion/Army Standard Bearer
THIS is the happier news for me, I genuinely didn't think we'd be able to choose metal or resin during the switch over. I want resin Gigas and do not want metal ones, great that I know what I'm in for - originally Mantic had said vague stuff about phasing metal out and etc.
Savings on them vary a little, the standard seems to be £50 of stuff for £35, but the ratkin and goblin sets are higher with £67.50 worth in the ratkin set and £85 (!) in the goblin set.
I see these as much more broadly useful than the army sets since it's basically buy two regiments, get a 30% discount. 40 minis for £35 RRP is really good and brings Mantic's hard plastics much closer to the pricing on oathmark or wargames atlantic.
The ratkin adds a small restic monster, but the goblin just straight up has 3 full plastic regiments. That's pretty nutso. The 3 mincers were listed for 40€ alone just a few days ago, now they're 40€bundled with 2 other kits.
so all the sets come with unit bases and an pre-made army list
hence the different value as all are the same points
guess they did not went with PMC but full model count, so you should get more out of the boxes than recommended in the lists
well I thought about the Ogre one to go along with the Ogre part from the 2 player set
but the Goblin one looks too good, specially as the chariots are the same for ogres anyway (though I did not planned to use them)
The goblin set has had one of the images pulled, and the mincer mob description says it's a troop, which means 2 of them rather than 3.
On the plus side, Mantic confirmed on facebook that it comes with all the parts needed to alternatively make a chariot out of it.
Still pretty great value in that set even with one less mincer model.
The chariots are going to be useful for a lot of stuff, with enough room on the back for a 40mm base you can paint it up and it'll work for loads of different purposes, goblins, orcs, ogres, beastmen etc. just swap out the rider models each time.
the Goblin Box is still great, also for expanding Ogres from the 2 player set
going thru the unit listed, those are all 330/350 points of models, depending if artifacts are used and can make more with PMC and using the parts to build a hero
I'm also pumped to have a gamer edition rulebook - I picked the 
(This in counterpoint to 
