Its the armor style. When they ditch the 'feral natives' look for the Horde and go for full plate, its all pauldrons and big hammers, with big gaps in coverage for the arms.
The old (and dated) Ogrim Doomhammer model (and Thrall when he's wearing Doomhammer's armor, really look like inspiration points. The some of curves look more like they come from draenei plate armor, but the mounted Shaman in particular looks like he came straight out of the Warcraft RTS.
The 'Iron Horde' at the end of the Warlords expansion really leans into this look.
I wonder if a less bright and colourful paint job on the armour would work?
As it is it is I think the main thing I don't like about them, it looks a bit too ornate for Orcs. If it were less fancy and painted to be a bit grubby looking it would I think change the overall look of the force.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: Is it just me or do those new Mantic Orcs look like the new GW Swamp Orruks?
They have literally the opposite aesthetics, it's Warcraft orcs with chunky Warcraft armour and hammers Vs Lotr Orks with spiky garbage cobbled out of scrap
do we have a release window and/or cost for these? If they're $40 a box for 20 I'm potentially going to pass.
Not that I could find on the Mantic site. Based on the existing Orc Greataxe set, $40 for 20 is probably the likely MSRP. for these new orcs. The basic orcs are $35, but these orcs look elite and they are new.
release is said to be end of year/beginning of next year with the last patch coming in march
other infantry (also new models) are 30€/35$ for 20 models (MSRP)
those with additional sprues or resin bits are 35€/40€ for 20 models
so 25€ at 3rd party shops, (some still have the old price of 25€ MSRP for in stock items)
Hmmm. The new orcs are indeed fairly Warcraft in aesthetic, and seem more to be "the organized armies of the Dark Lord" style of orc. I think wargamers might be far more used to the "disorganized inhuman barbarians" style of orc, probably due to Games Workshop and D&D.
I feel like there's room for this sort of orc in wargaming, but the niche seems to be mostly taken up by the chaos warrior/black knight type. Also, there's something about the Warcraft style that's putting me off, but I can't put my finger on it. I don't dislike the Warcraft aesthetics, so I could be as simple as "This isn't what I'm used to from orc miniatures, so I've got a touch of the grognard grump about it."
I honestly think I need to wait and see what I think about these orcs after I've had a while to get used to them.
Kodos posted a quick recolor on the KOW Forum that bridges the gap with the cyclopses -
- and now I'm a believer
The lightning bug-thing isn't great IMO (particularly as a mismatch with what we've seen of the faction), but I've already starting sourcing some very tasty lightning beasts to replace it
Give them a darker paintjob and they're not that different to GW black orcs, which given they seem to have been created by abyssal dwarves makes sense.
I've enough of that style of Orc but I think they're pretty nice. Not a fan of the lion mounts though.
They are Mantic Games' version of manticores, indeed. They are on standard cavalry base, but clearly bigger than it.
Like the orc regiment, I think it's the official painting scheme that makes them look "bad". I mean, painting them in blue is certainly quite the artistic choice here.
Looking for people doing their paint magic once they get their hands on them : pretty sure it'll help a lot to change opinions !
I'll be painting some up for my abyssal army as abyssal guard, they can also act as slave orcs for abyssal dwarfs since the armour style matches so well.
Always happy to get new plastic kits to play around with, and heavily-armoured heroic scale orcs are definitely going to be a welcome addition to the range of alternate minis out there.
I'm hoping after all these new army releases we see some stuff for existing armies added, the main thing that got Mantic recognised early on was the quality and value of their flagship Undead range.
Would be really great to see basileans get a couple of combi infantry/cavalry sets similar to the Halfling kit.
I'm hoping after all these new army releases we see some stuff for existing armies added
Yeah, I would love to see modern version of undead skellies and ghouls, and orc ax. All without integral bases of course, and made to the standard of the latest plastic releases.
If there is one unit that is omnipresent in lists and that I'd like to see officials models of, it's the Varangur Fallen.
I'd rather they re-do their less-well aged ranges - namely Elves and Dwarves. The vanilla Undead Skellies are fine imo, the Empire of Dust OTOH are dreadful, and not in a good way.
Also, I expect them to do Herd and Twilight Kin which - if I am not mistaken - are the 2 remaining factions with no range of their own. Unless you're using Mantic Elves (who don't look the Dark Elf part at all) and paint more sinister-looking.
I'm hoping after all these new army releases we see some stuff for existing armies added
Yeah, I would love to see modern version of undead skellies and ghouls, and orc ax. All without integral bases of course, and made to the standard of the latest plastic releases.
I must be the odd one as I like the undead plastic infantry. Ghouls, Zombies, Revenants, and Skeletons look good even to this day and are usually dirt cheap.
I'm apathetic to a lot of Mantic's sculpts these days; they are solid for the price but now they need to stand against 3d prints. Many companies can justify a higher price by delivering a better product, but Mantic... once one gets outside the blocks of rank & file it gets really difficult to see how they intend to stay competitive. Coupled with that, a not insignificant amount of their kits ARE simply bad, ridiculously overpriced, or both.
The Undeads are still the best R&F infantry you can get out there
the individual GW model or 3D printed Skeleton might look better, but going into a Horde.....
their main problem is that they were made for a different game
the Elves have a charm mainly because they are different and not just humans with pointy or ridiculous helmets and one of the R&F kits that can actually build a phalanx outside of historical kits
the issue with the Dwarfs is that they don't have a "unified line" but individual kits with different aesthetics, I would say those are the ones that need an upgrade first
Having a plastic kit for Line Infantry, with Sword, Spears, upgrades for Elite, and another kit for Berserker based units
Next one being the Elves with just a simple increase in scale (taking similar sculpts but at 120-140% scale and be good), which could be done similar to the Orcs with a Twilight/Sylvan Kin Set instead of replacing the mainline Elves
But I guess we are going to see some other factions first,
Herd as is starting to miss models as the GW support for Beastmen is also not there, and we already have seen some teaser and got some monsters via boardgames
Empire of Dust really needs a different line up, either their own kit or Resin upgrades instead of the metal ones
Everything else would be individual models/units that need upgrades, replacing the outdated PVC kits with Resin or add new plastic ones
Agreed, the new orcs look like smaller superhero toys.
Mantic minis, with a few exceptions, are IMO generally bad designs, and often also bad sculpts (soft details that you can't even understand what is supposed to be), and are now not even cheap anymore.
I love their rules, but not enough to buy their poor minis for high prices.
I'm hoping after all these new army releases we see some stuff for existing armies added, the main thing that got Mantic recognised early on was the quality and value of their flagship Undead range.
I feel like the main thing that got Mantic any recognition for their undead range was the fact that their Zombies weren’t GW’s ancient(even back then) Zombies kit. Never saw a whole lot of their Undead range get widespread use or acclaim, aside from the aforementioned Zombies.
kodos wrote: The Undeads are still the best R&F infantry you can get out there
the individual GW model or 3D printed Skeleton might look better, but going into a Horde.....
Nope, they're not.
Just go to the right 3D sculptors doing real modular stuff like this one :
Also, Warlord Miniatures do release undead kits that are honestly vastly superior.
Nowadays, Mantic Games old undead kits are what they are : old and outdated. Not even the cheapest anymore. This is in the past.
not a fan of those
I don't like Undead that must have been serving Necromancers they were killed and raised again to get the matching iconography
and I know the weapons are oversized to make them printable, but this does not make them look much better
for the Warlord ones, well not a friend of those but you get plastic bows and they match the old GW ones
yet it is a single type of "naked" Skeletons that are fiddly to build and arrange in R&F, not something I would call superior
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm apathetic to a lot of Mantic's sculpts these days; they are solid for the price but now they need to stand against 3d prints. Many companies can justify a higher price by delivering a better product, but Mantic... once one gets outside the blocks of rank & file it gets really difficult to see how they intend to stay competitive. Coupled with that, a not insignificant amount of their kits ARE simply bad, ridiculously overpriced, or both.
Yeah, I’m surprised how much their prices have jumped. I participated in a lot of their kickstarters and got used to $1 per mini pricing. Their newest plastic infantry seem to be more or less equivalent to WGA’s Death Fields line, pretty good but a bit pricey for any miniatures that aren’t unambiguous hits. However, their resin miniatures and ranges like the Matsudan are just too expensive. There are all kinds of options for monopose minis these days, most of them much cheaper.
As for 3D printing—I don’t feel that it directly competes with plastic miniatures. 3D printed minis work as monopose tokens for gaming, and for painting enthusiasts. However, one must first own a printer and want to use it (I freaking gave up on my a-hole printer, the jerk), and then one must be willing to clean 3D prints, a tedious and frustrating experience (compared to the enjoyable zen of assembling plastic minis). As other posters have said, 3D printing is a hobby in itself that only barely overlaps the tabletop minis and war gaming hobbies.
Compared to the time and stress of setting up a print, reprinting the failed print, reprinting it agai—no, wait I think it’s working—crap, reprinting it again, then cleaning it, the washing it in the hope it won’t be sticky no more, before painting and priming, an affordable box of plastic miniatures is quite competitive.
Edit: and buying 3D printed minis isn’t much cheaper than buying resin minis.
lord_blackfang wrote: Not a fan of how chunky all their modern sculpts designed for resin casting are. They tend to look like pro painted Happy Meal toys.
My attraction to traditional miniatures at this point is almost only chunky sculpts cast in resin I find the new Riftforged line a lot more attractive than I thought I would - and I'm thrilled the two handed weapons are also plastic and in the kit, that is not how Mantic has often done unit upgrades in the past, which were often terrible metal bits direct from them.
I find modern Mantic stuff quaint and happily nostalgic in a way, and, when they've made better material choices, serviceable for the price. But I'd be lying if I said I'm not more interested in printing my own armies from vastly cooler sculpts that I can size however I want. I bought a 90% Mantic army over the last year as a show of solidarity ... however it's still in boxes as I keep printing stuff for my current army
EDIT: Re: Bob's commentary, it is still pretty cool to be able to buy a box of minis and get cracking on a unit, and not have to faff around with all the mess of multiple prints / fails / endless cleanup.
yet it is a single type of "naked" Skeletons that are fiddly to build and arrange in R&F, not something I would call superior
They're superiors because at least, proportions are closer to a real skeleton - not like the cartoon one from Mantic Games.
Also, I will never say old Mantic Games plastic kits are superior as long as they have that annoying circle under their feet. They're really a pain in the ass to remove, especially on skeletons.
Because yes, it's a bother for hordes and regiments. Not even talking about the poor variety especially on zombies and "ghouls" (after all, you can mix the 2 to make more zombies, that's how bad ghouls are - especially with their frail fingers).
Unless you enjoy buying poor quality troops at a not that interesting price in comparison to the old days...even so, I would never say they're the best in that field. They're barely passable, and I'm being generous here.
The newer Mantic hard plastics easily keep pace with other companies efforts, and there's sometimes quite a few things about them which are superior.
None of the newer kits have the base disc, hasn't been the case since KoW 2nd edition launched.
I most recently assembled both Mantic abyssal dwarfs and some AoS Hobgrots for a WHFB 6th project, the Hobgrots were simultaneously monopose but also really annoying to assemble with different numbered parts scattered around the sprue.
In comparison, the dwarfs were a great multipart kit with sharp details, lots of weapon and head options, some nice touches such as distinct reloading/ready to fire/firing arms for the blunderbusses which both make the unit look great in multiple ranks and help with ranking them up. And there's 4 bonus hellhounds on the sprue too, little extras similar to the ones GW used to do (scarabs/ ripper swarms).
Most of Mantic's hard plastics now fall into this latter category of much higher sculpt quality and variety. Price has risen a bit over the years, but still around £1/mini for the most part.
New GW is absolute hell to assemble, but when finished, the minis are heads and tails above Mantic. Some of them are also not really much more expensive.
yet it is a single type of "naked" Skeletons that are fiddly to build and arrange in R&F, not something I would call superior
They're superiors because at least, proportions are closer to a real skeleton - not like the cartoon one from Mantic Games.
If you're talking about the rendered skeletons you just posted, those are further away from realistic proportions than Mantic's skeletons. Those bones much thicker in comparison, which makes the limbs look shorter. It's good modelling sense, but bad proportions.
Illumini wrote: New GW is absolute hell to assemble, but when finished, the minis are heads and tails above Mantic. Some of them are also not really much more expensive.
GW minis are great in sets of five or ten. Larger groups start to look very samey very fast due to them being monopose.
I have found that second hand GW minis are getting much riskier to buy because there are now ten different ways assembly can be borked up, and they are impossible to fix since you can't separate the parts again.
yet it is a single type of "naked" Skeletons that are fiddly to build and arrange in R&F, not something I would call superior
They're superiors because at least, proportions are closer to a real skeleton - not like the cartoon one from Mantic Games.
If you're talking about the rendered skeletons you just posted, those are further away from realistic proportions than Mantic's skeletons. Those bones much thicker in comparison, which makes the limbs look shorter. It's good modelling sense, but bad proportions.
I think he is talking about the Warlord ones, which are still oversized but look like a human skeleton, and not like an "undead"
I can see that people like naked bones more than the army of darkness vibe from Mantic, but my taste is different here as those would be ok for a Sword-and-Sandal like theme/setting but for medieval-fantasy I expect something different
yet it is a single type of "naked" Skeletons that are fiddly to build and arrange in R&F, not something I would call superior
They're superiors because at least, proportions are closer to a real skeleton - not like the cartoon one from Mantic Games.
Also, I will never say old Mantic Games plastic kits are superior as long as they have that annoying circle under their feet. They're really a pain in the ass to remove, especially on skeletons.
Because yes, it's a bother for hordes and regiments. Not even talking about the poor variety especially on zombies and "ghouls" (after all, you can mix the 2 to make more zombies, that's how bad ghouls are - especially with their frail fingers).
I actually did exactly that and managed to squeeze 2 Hordes of zombies out of 20 Zombies plus 20 Ghouls.
Spoiler:
I disagree on the notion that the Zombies have poor variety, I mean how many kits are there that let you do "emerging from the grave" and "missing upper body" Zombies?
kodos wrote: I never understood what the problem with the base disc is
if you really need to remove it, a plastic/hobby saw works well and it is an easy task
^
You clearly haven't try to cut it from the feet of a Mantic Games zombie / skeleton. Problem is that they are molded with the circle and if you cut it at the base, their feet are considerably thinner. Can work if your base is swampy and you want to make it feel like their feet are sinking in the mud, but not if your base is made of cobbles.
Best job is to cut around the feet and then cut just a bit lower than the original circle so that they are thick enough.
It's annoying when you have to do this on a whole army of 100 undeads, mind you. I know, I have tried. Just gave up after the 30rd when I realized it was simply not worth it for the low quality of the model anyway.
and at least some possibilities of different poses or options that make conversions easier are a big plus for me
They're no better than GW's monopose miniatures, honestly. For skeletons, shields are incorporated with the upper body. Arms are all stuck in the same pose with the said upper body, you can only change weapons. As for variety, that's not what I call the best.
I can see that people like naked bones more than the army of darkness vibe from Mantic, but my taste is different here as those would be ok for a Sword-and-Sandal like theme/setting but for medieval-fantasy I expect something different
Oh you don't need to look for bare bones. These also exist :
Guess you'll say they're too "GW-ish" to your taste, though.
There are plenty of better undead than old Mantic Games undead kits. Being a fan doesn't justify to be blind to how outdated they are nowadays in comparison to what's offered on the market...and yes, that means 3D files as well.
I disagree on the notion that the Zombies have poor variety, I mean how many kits are there that let you do "emerging from the grave" and "missing upper body" Zombies?
Let's be honest : they can look good, but only if someone works them more than necessary on them. If you do the same on another kit that is more recent and more well thought, you can also make them look even better with the same amount of effort.
Kits should be treated as they are, not as what they can be if you tinker with them. 'cause tinkering can be done with everything else. It's not a gage of quality of the original kit at all.
I can also mix 3D files as well, mind you. And they can look even more awesome as a result when printed, converted and painted.
If you mean the Zombie/Ghoul mixing, yes, that would indeed be tinkering.
However, I was referring to the fact that the Mantic Zombie kit explicitedly has a base for an emerging zombie and a piece (a broken spine with some intestines, to be precise) that you can use for a legs-only zombie.
I've taken the discs off Mantic Ghouls and it wasn't a big deal (just used clippers). Mummies are a fair bit harder due to a) being restic and b) the tactical rock on 50% of the poses makes that part a real PITA.
EDIT: The Monstrous Encounters models directly above are quite nice, but I find that sort of detail more wight/grave guard/revenant/insert brand specific elite name rather than r&f skellies.
Esmer wrote: If you mean the Zombie/Ghoul mixing, yes, that would indeed be tinkering.
However, I was referring to the fact that the Mantic Zombie kit explicitedly has a base for an emerging zombie and a piece (a broken spine with some intestines, to be precise) that you can use for a legs-only zombie.
Sure, there is. Still doesn't increase that much variety.
All of you emerging or leg-only zombies will unavoidably look the same in a horde (by the way, one torso look particularly bad if you try to use it as emerging). It's no better than another GW monopose kit.
By the way, do you know you can use the unused tombstones from the latest GW zombie kit and put them on a separate base as well ? That's the same principle.
Baragash wrote: I've taken the discs off Mantic Ghouls and it wasn't a big deal (just used clippers)..
Me too. Now do that on a hundred of them. I guarantee you will feel it in your clipping hand way before you get to that number.
Is it that hard to understand having miniatures without that circle from the start is way much better if you're looking for actual variety, and not just blind fan defense of those outdated kits ?
The most maddening thing to me about the widespread use of those damned integral disc bases on minis, still in this decade, is how incredibly easy it would be to make everyone happy.
Just make the models with small pegs jutting out of below their feet and supply the empty bases with holes in them.
This allow people who likes the integral bases to insert the minis into them, and those who don't can cut off the pegs and put them on any base they like. (actually it would be a great feature as you can keep a small sliver of the peg to raise the models slightly off the ground level to avoid that 'sunken' look you can otherwise get while basing)
Yes, it's possible to remove models from integral bases, but it's more time consuming than you might think, and it's a lot more easy to damage the feet while doing it. And regardless, it's a completely UNNESSESARY hassle, for a very unclear gain.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm apathetic to a lot of Mantic's sculpts these days; they are solid for the price but now they need to stand against 3d prints. Many companies can justify a higher price by delivering a better product, but Mantic... once one gets outside the blocks of rank & file it gets really difficult to see how they intend to stay competitive. Coupled with that, a not insignificant amount of their kits ARE simply bad, ridiculously overpriced, or both.
Yeah, I’m surprised how much their prices have jumped. I participated in a lot of their kickstarters and got used to $1 per mini pricing. Their newest plastic infantry seem to be more or less equivalent to WGA’s Death Fields line, pretty good but a bit pricey for any miniatures that aren’t unambiguous hits. However, their resin miniatures and ranges like the Matsudan are just too expensive. There are all kinds of options for monopose minis these days, most of them much cheaper.
As for 3D printing—I don’t feel that it directly competes with plastic miniatures. 3D printed minis work as monopose tokens for gaming, and for painting enthusiasts. However, one must first own a printer and want to use it (I freaking gave up on my a-hole printer, the jerk), and then one must be willing to clean 3D prints, a tedious and frustrating experience (compared to the enjoyable zen of assembling plastic minis). As other posters have said, 3D printing is a hobby in itself that only barely overlaps the tabletop minis and war gaming hobbies.
Compared to the time and stress of setting up a print, reprinting the failed print, reprinting it agai—no, wait I think it’s working—crap, reprinting it again, then cleaning it, the washing it in the hope it won’t be sticky no more, before painting and priming, an affordable box of plastic miniatures is quite competitive.
Edit: and buying 3D printed minis isn’t much cheaper than buying resin minis.
Totally on the same page. I should have clarified I meant to compare apples to apples; Mantic's metal/resin offerings are often a similar price to a purchased 3d-printed alternative but a notable step down in quality.
Sarouan wrote: You clearly haven't try to cut it from the feet of a Mantic Games zombie / skeleton. Problem is that they are molded with the circle and if you cut it at the base, their feet are considerably thinner. Can work if your base is swampy and you want to make it feel like their feet are sinking in the mud, but not if your base is made of cobbles
I usually model my bases after I glued the figure on it, not before and as this is the standard for 90% of historical models I am aware of all the problems (and advantages) that come with those (or how to remove them if needed)
and most 3D printed ones need that base as well to avoid problems
Guess you'll say they're too "GW-ish" to your taste, though.
those are copies of the old metal revants from GW, and yes as I said I don't like the theme of Undead that come with armour, weapons or icons which make them look they worked for the Necromancer/Vampire already as a living being and not like raised dead
and for single models like heroes or monsters, there are some very nice models and files around, no need to ever bother with Mantic metal/pvc heroes while for R&F infantry, most of them are variantions/copies of classic GW models
and the good ones cost ~70-80€ per regiment for printed models (or ~20-30€ for the files)
Kits should be treated as they are, not as what they can be if you tinker with them. 'cause tinkering can be done with everything else. It's not a gage of quality of the original kit at all.
I can also mix 3D files as well, mind you. And they can look even more awesome as a result when printed, converted and painted.
this depends on the price, a cheap kit with lots of possibilities to tinker, is something different than an expensive kit with no chance to tinker at all
the Zombies are cheap enough and look good enough that I don't care about the limitations as variation can be done easily but cutting stuff or adding from other kits
they are even a good base to make a larger monster out of the parts, something that cannot be done easily with the new GW ones or Resin models
and if you have a printer and the time to tinker around and make stuff on your own, this is nice
for me this is not an alternative, although I have a access to a printer, but for all the issues it has, it is easier to buy a box of Zombies and tinker than trying to print 40 different ones
kodos wrote: I never understood what the problem with the base disc is
Why are they even there in the first place? Why still so many hard plastic minis out there (WGA, Northstar, Perry etc.) even have those stupid integral bases?
Playability, a casted base gives better stability for the model and the large surface make them stick better to the base
It is the main difference between Wargaming models and display models (and if there is no disc, the models are usually sculpted in a way to hold better, this is the reason why the old Space Marines all have the broad walking pose and stand with both feet flat on the ground)
kodos wrote: Playability, a casted base gives better stability for the model and the large surface make them stick better to the base
It is the main difference between Wargaming models and display models (and if there is no disc, the models are usually sculpted in a way to hold better, this is the reason why the old Space Marines all have the broad walking pose and stand with both feet flat on the ground)
Fortunately Mantic is not including them in the latest minis. That, and the overall huge improvement with the quality of their sculpts, gives me hope for some proper medieval skellies in the (near) future.
Integrated discs were a pain when they came out, but now you can just print bases or unit tray with recesses. At least Mantic's are circles so it's easy, unlike dumb historical kidney bases.
The next full fleet release for Armada will be the Salamanders. Since we first teased some artwork of these ships, there’s been a lot of anticipation for their launch. After all, apart from the elves, the Salamanders are some of the most experienced sea-faring folk in the whole of Pannithor.
The Salamanders possess a small but elite navy, with large, powerful ships. Their crews, often commanded by mysterious arkosaurs, are well-drilled – indeed, through some form of racial memory, many salamanders are spawned with knowledge of sailing and naval strategy in their fiery blood. The strange appearance of their battle ships has remained largely unchanged for millennia, and were themselves developed in response to their enemies in the East, foremost amongst them the ancient Xirkaali Empire.
If the imposing forms of their ships weren’t enough to deter most challengers at sea, the belching smoke from their batteries, and the dancing flames at their prows are sights to strike fear into the hearts of sailors everywhere. For the Salamanders are masters of firecraft, which they use to their advantage. The arkosaurs command fire elementals to do their bidding, while their own vessels are protected from flame by armour of drake-pelts and dragonscales.
the elite KoW Minis are ornated too, but for the ship the design, as quoted above:
The strange appearance of their battle ships has remained largely unchanged for millennia, and were themselves developed in response to their enemies in the East, foremost amongst them the ancient Xirkaali Empire
so Chinese inspired but the question is if we see something from the Eastern Enemy as well
Sarouan wrote: They're salamanders ships ? I don't know why, but I feel like they have a chinese inspiration.
They're very ornated as well. It's kinda different from the KoW design of their current miniatures, IMHO.
The sails are very 'Chinese' looking.
I am a bit puzzled that the flying models have bases with water features on them, but the boats have plain bases. Surely they could have put water features on them as well. I think that is what I don't like about Mantic's boats.
Sarouan wrote: They're salamanders ships ? I don't know why, but I feel like they have a chinese inspiration.
They're very ornated as well. It's kinda different from the KoW design of their current miniatures, IMHO.
The sails are very 'Chinese' looking.
I am a bit puzzled that the flying models have bases with water features on them, but the boats have plain bases. Surely they could have put water features on them as well. I think that is what I don't like about Mantic's boats.
It makes them look kinda not-boaty, together with how far above the waterline they are.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm apathetic to a lot of Mantic's sculpts these days; they are solid for the price but now they need to stand against 3d prints. Many companies can justify a higher price by delivering a better product, but Mantic... once one gets outside the blocks of rank & file it gets really difficult to see how they intend to stay competitive. Coupled with that, a not insignificant amount of their kits ARE simply bad, ridiculously overpriced, or both.
Edit: and buying 3D printed minis isn’t much cheaper than buying resin minis.
Thats because you are buying resin minis, the manufacturing process is just different.
It was just miscommunication; I was meaning to say that people can buy 3d printed resins of significantly higher quality, not significantly less in price.
And it's both if you have your own printer. It's really not a good time to be half-assing physical models when new digital sculpts outnumber them by orders of maginitude every month and can be in my hand within hours of release, for a fraction of the cost.
First up for 2022, we’ve got some additional units for the Riftforged Orcs. Although the army and mega army launched in December, we’re following that up with individual releases of minis like the Stormcaller and Thunderseers, plus brand-new monsters like the menacing Stormslayer.
However, that’s just the start of the Riftforged releases. In March we’ll be releasing the Ambarox, Stormforged Shrine, Helstrikers, Riftforger and Stormbringer on Manticore to round out the range.
Spoiler:
Before we move onto more previews, we have some great news about our European Markets, which will be of great interest to our French and German Kings of War players. 2022 will see the full release of Kings of War translated into both French and German.
Firstly, we are pleased to announce that Mantic will be taking over from Victoria Games and handling the sale, distribution and marketing of all our games directly in the future. We are really looking forward to meeting up with the French gaming community, and we are pleased to announce that Denis Cossard will be helping us ensure the French community gets the love and attention that it deserves.
Similarly we are working with our German partners to get a fully translated version of Kings of War into circulation in early 2022. The full rulebook – including all the background and core army lists – will be on sale soon, so stay tuned for more info on both of these exciting launches.
and now the unexpected big one, hard plastic Empire of Dust:
Spoiler:
Ok, this is one of the big reveals: brand-new hard plastic Empire of Dust! This has always been one of our most popular armies but, although the miniatures were full of character, they were a little challenging to build, due to the mix of metal and plastic. That’s all set to change in 2022 with the release of a hard plastic set that will build Empire of Dust warriors, spearmen and archers.
It’s going to be a really versatile set, which will allow you to make a nice selection of different skeletons, including a unit champion to really give each regiment or horde a unique look.
But that’s not all for the hard plastic Empire of Dust, because we’ll also be releasing hard plastic Revenant Cavalry. The sprue will be split into undead horses that can be built with or without the armour and riders, which come on a separate sprue. It’s the first time we’ve done a dedicated kit for hard plastic cavalry and we’re extremely excited to add them to the Kings of War range.
With the hard plastics will come a whole slew of additional releases, like the new and improved Enslaved Guardians. These will be making the move from metal to resin – as part of our bigger ‘metal to resin’ project for 2022. When moved to resin, we’re also taking the opportunity to make them slightly bigger too (roughly snow troll height) so all those awesome details will really ‘pop’.
Of course, this is just the tip of the iceberg for Kings of War in 2022. We’ll have two more hard plastic kits (let the speculation begin!), plus an online campaign during the summer, which will last for longer than a weekend this time.
It's an interesting choice, I didn't realize the EoD range sold so well.
Possibly down to Tomb Kings being completely eradicated from the GW store when AoS launched, if a company completely stops selling something, it's open season for competitors.
Really pleased to see the hard plastic cavalry as well, overall it's actually a better effort than GW put in with their initial TK release consisting of a single upgrade sprue thrown on the 1990's skeleton kits.
Optional barding on the horses is always good to see as well.
I'm tempted to pick some up, I collected Khemri in 6th edition and there's something quite theraputic about painting hordes of skeletons.
Esmer wrote: It speaks volumes about how bad the current Empire of Dust range is when they are doing a complete re-vamp after, what, 3-4 years?
First released in 2016, so 6 years. So far, only two existing kits have been announced to be 'revamped', so that's not the whole range. The Enslaved Guardians are being moved to resin, but I don't think that counts.
The Riftforged vocabulary seems to be about 4 different words in various combinations, it's like a 14 year old's homebrew Warhammer army.
EoD plastics... should be a welcome surprise, but the design seem to be firmly in the "commissioned on Fiverr" territory like most of what Mantic does these days
Mantic seems to have a very particular look now, which is probably good for an interlinked range, but it is not a good one IMO.
TT combat has way better tomb king minis. Knowing mantics usual plastic quality, all those lines and symbols are going to be blended with soft edges, making them hell to paint well.
being less good to field Warhammer Tomb Kings compared to other Resin and STL ranges, but this is not the goal (and they cannot compete anyway with more direct copies of the old Warhammer ranges)
but having plastic core units in Empire of Dust style is big
Esmer wrote: It speaks volumes about how bad the current Empire of Dust range is when they are doing a complete re-vamp after, what, 3-4 years?
6 years (in other games we have seen the 3rd version of plastic kits during that time) and as they are not planning to produce metal kits any more, not a suprise, yet I have expected a plastic-resin hybrid army rather than new plastic kits
sukura636 wrote: So far, only two existing kits have been announced to be 'revamped', so that's not the whole range. The Enslaved Guardians are being moved to resin, but I don't think that counts.
2 kits, replacing 3 infantry and 2 cavalry units and horses on their own sprue could mean that we finally see chariots as well
Illumini wrote: Mantic seems to have a very particular look now, which is probably good for an interlinked range, but it is not a good one IMO.
TT combat has way better tomb king minis. Knowing mantics usual plastic quality, all those lines and symbols are going to be blended with soft edges, making them hell to paint well.
Having looked up the TTC ones...I can't say I agree. They look soft and sort of squashed in the store photos, with very wooden poses. Any pictures of unpainted models do not look like they bring out the detail well, although resin is hard to photograph.
Soft details is a placement thing. The Abyssal Dwarfs has very good details on the parts facing the sprue, but get soft towards the edges (where the tool closes). If we assume these are put together in the same way, then the details will come out well, since they aren't on the sides of the model. It's an educated guess, but I'm going off as much of an assumption as you are.
sukura636 wrote: So far, only two existing kits have been announced to be 'revamped', so that's not the whole range. The Enslaved Guardians are being moved to resin, but I don't think that counts.
2 kits, replacing 3 infantry and 2 cavalry units and horses on their own sprue could mean that we finally see chariots as well
Which cavalry kits are being replaced? Mantic doesn't make any Empire of Dust Cavalry. And there are only two infantry kits (which make three units).
Between them and WGA’s upcoming Egyptians, I’ll be able to make Tomb Kings, fantasy Egyptians, and space Egyptians. If the armor pieces, greaves and bracers are big enough, I can even fit them on some chainmail dudes to make legally-distinct not-Jaffa. I shall call them Haifa. Haifa, kray!
The detail looks good to me, and I’ve been pleased by Mantic’s recent plastics. But yeah,big spear.
I don't ask them to look Egyptian. I ask them to look good.
And those renders look like some amateurish job. The egyptian inspiration is obvious. You can work up to separate from your inspiration , of course, not just copypaste it. But when you that you should try to make something slighly unique and good looking.
Maybe it's a perspective problem in the 3D render and the plastic miniatures won't look that big ?
Otherwise, maybe Mantic Games wants to go back to the old GW Tomb Kings skeletons, when they were comically oversized as well. Since they have so many previous GW veteran players as customer base that are so fond of nostalgia, it's not necessarily a bad move.
Sarouan wrote: Maybe it's a perspective problem in the 3D render and the plastic miniatures won't look that big ?
Otherwise, maybe Mantic Games wants to go back to the old GW Tomb Kings skeletons, when they were comically oversized as well. Since they have so many previous GW veteran players as customer base that are so fond of nostalgia, it's not necessarily a bad move.
They had simple weapons and shields though. The shields and Khopeshs were great.
with those, this could still be because of the render, or are just a first test for the plastic molds (the arrow is oversized as well) and as I have worked with Victrix Saxons on December, a little bit oversized is better than realistic sized spears as those break to easily
I don't mind a bit of exaggeration on size, especially with skeletons. I'd rather have leg and arm bones that are a bit thicker than the kind that snap if you look at them wrong (deathrattle skeletons)
I'd tend to have the same mind than Kodos : I think it's the 3D render that looks exaggerated and it's certainly so that the print is sturdy enough. It may be indeed for a test print, not the final release.
I'll wait to see the actual plastic clusters before judging.
That said...since Mantic Games tend to be closer to 28mm than 32 mm and the skeletons themselves tend to be easily thin, it wouldn't surprise me if the weapons are indeed a bit out of proportion to make sure the miniature is sturdy enough.
There will be historical Egyptians on the market soon enough for everyone who wants simpler, more realistic weapons. I prefer my fantasy minis to have fantastical weapons. You can always swap them out with historical bits if you need to, but if everyone made ‘realistic’ weapons there would be no good options for people who like fantasy.
lord_blackfang wrote: Well we know right now that detail won't be visible since all the detail is 0.1mm wide recesses.
100% accurate measuring by eye. We don't 'know' that at all .
Ah well you may be right and the skeletons are 3" tall
Speaking as someone in the industry, indirectly involved in certain plastics production (and having talked extensively with people in more direct contact) Blackfang is either correct or close to correct.
Based on mantic's previous sprue plastic kits, the detail, especially on those shields and the torso armor, looks like it will come out somewhat flat.
Someone mentioned earlier that the detail on the Abyssal dwarf plastics gets softer towards the sides of the model, aka close to where the plates of the mold meet.
This tracks with what I have seen in person. it also tells me that their plastics injection machine is either not getting enough pressure to close the mould properly, or the engineers who tooled the mould made the details towards that midpoint softer.
Why that would happen I have no idea.
Honestly why they have not switched plastic engineering providers I don't know.
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Sarouan wrote: Maybe it's a perspective problem in the 3D render and the plastic miniatures won't look that big ?
Otherwise, maybe Mantic Games wants to go back to the old GW Tomb Kings skeletons, when they were comically oversized as well. Since they have so many previous GW veteran players as customer base that are so fond of nostalgia, it's not necessarily a bad move.
not from the angle they have that screengrab from.
I take render images every day. if the spear looks overlarge chances are it is over large.
Honestly why they have not switched plastic engineering providers I don't know
As far as I know they have done this twice
Their GCPS Rangers models in HIPS were very poor. I just painted up a pack, and bought them without much thought because they were new and thus... would be good. They were awful to paint, and very disappointing. It was exactly the problem you noted above - they get all mushy and distorted around the middle, where the two mold edges meet. And even the details at the front and rear were still poor (where theoretically they have no excuse for lousy details). It was impossible to tell what was what, where to add highlights, and how to paint these guys. Super bummed that they're still, years down the line, having some of the same problems with their models.
Not a fan of those skeletons. The spear looks far too clunky, and the Khopesh and bow are too ornate, which makes them look more like ceremonial weapons.
Also, aren’t there already a glut of plastic skeletons on the market? OK these ones have faux Egyptian imagery, or at least are trying to invoke that style... but, skeletons with rags clinging to their bones can be given Egyptian style weapons and shields to get that look.
Do like their Ushabti however, those look solid and should paint up nicely.
I got a sprue of the Abyssial Dwarves and a box of the Bassilean men at arms, and I think while the designs are solid (although again I would prefer more simple weapons and shields) the details are far too small.
I've been working on some Rift Forged Orcs for a forthcoming video, and I'm encountering a lot of what you guys are mentioning.
The core center of the model is solid, while the details get softer and less defined the further out you get. Some of the outside edges of the armor are almost non existant.
I don't recall having things seem so bad with the northmen plastics, but definitely had similar thoughts with the plastic salamanders, to the point I had no idea what exactly I was painting!
That all said I'll still be giving the dusty bones a good look.
That's a bit disappointing about the Abyssal Dwarves, I've got them in mind for a small project at some stage.
Still, I'm not exactly a top tier painter so it'll probably come out alright in the end, but it is disappointing when mushy detail means you can't quite work out what things are supposed to be.
I have a bunch of their original plastic Undead and I have to say they're really sharp minis, I dunno that I had any problems of this sort with them.
lord_blackfang wrote:Agreed that shafts need to be thicc
Been doing historicals lately and realistic pikes stress me out.
That's why broom bristles for pikes are so popular.
If snapping pikes are a problem, use piano wire. It is quite strong. In fact, there was an accident, and I had one driven through a toe. The pike was fine; my toe less so.
lord_blackfang wrote:Agreed that shafts need to be thicc
Been doing historicals lately and realistic pikes stress me out.
That's why broom bristles for pikes are so popular.
If snapping pikes are a problem, use piano wire. It is quite strong. In fact, there was an accident, and I had one driven through a toe. The pike was fine; my toe less so.
Egads man, you simply must stop playing on the floor! Or stop with the table dancing!
lord_blackfang wrote:Agreed that shafts need to be thicc
Been doing historicals lately and realistic pikes stress me out.
That's why broom bristles for pikes are so popular.
If snapping pikes are a problem, use piano wire. It is quite strong. In fact, there was an accident, and I had one driven through a toe. The pike was fine; my toe less so.
I am confused why you are telling us to use piano wire and then explaining why we should never use piano wire.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I am confused why you are telling us to use piano wire and then explaining why we should never use piano wire.
Actually, I thought that was an endorsement of piano wire's durability. It won't break or bend under the most extreme circumstance, so snapping pikes will never be a concern again.
My anecdote is also a warning against laziness. Had I put my purchase away properly before standing on a chair to change a light bulb, it would not have been on the floor when I slipped off the chair. The minis as well as the pikes were fine, just the packaging (and my toe) were damaged.
It seems completely insane to me that Mantic is burning money tooling 2 sprues that have 2 copies of each sculpt when they could get the exact same result with 1 sprue. Someone embezzling money through the tooling subcontractor?
Other than that, seems like a sharp cast, but I don't care much for this World of Warcraft aesthetic.
lord_blackfang wrote: It seems completely insane to me that Mantic is burning money tooling 2 sprues that have 2 copies of each sculpt when they could get the exact same result with 1 sprue. Someone embezzling money through the tooling subcontractor?
Other than that, seems like a sharp cast, but I don't care much for this World of Warcraft aesthetic.
It might be a modular tool so saving money, as they make 3 half tools and swap between two of them to get different sprues.
lord_blackfang wrote: It seems completely insane to me that Mantic is burning money tooling 2 sprues that have 2 copies of each sculpt when they could get the exact same result with 1 sprue. Someone embezzling money through the tooling subcontractor?
It was the same for the halflings.
.
I'd say it's less money for the 3D sculptor (just had to pay him for 5 different models rather than 10).
Remember when I said Mantic Games is just a cheap version of GW ? Well, it's still true.
But they could have put literally all of those parts on one sprue and save 50% of tooling costs, and just cast it twice instead of two different sprues once with all the parts doubled up. It's mind boggling. Unless they're planning to keep the body sprue and use it with variant weapon sprues, but they haven't done so yet for any faction, and even then they'd just be breaking even, not saving.
lord_blackfang wrote: But they could have put literally all of those parts on one sprue and save 50% of tooling costs, and just cast it twice instead of two different sprues once with all the parts doubled up. It's mind boggling. Unless they're planning to keep the body sprue and use it with variant weapon sprues, but they haven't done so yet for any faction, and even then they'd just be breaking even, not saving.
There are some parts that aren't doubled, though. Like the heads. Same for halflings as well.
So I guess it wasn't especially cheaper to make the not-doubled parts on a separate mould and just double the other sprues.
lord_blackfang wrote: But they could have put literally all of those parts on one sprue and save 50% of tooling costs, and just cast it twice instead of two different sprues once with all the parts doubled up. It's mind boggling. Unless they're planning to keep the body sprue and use it with variant weapon sprues, but they haven't done so yet for any faction, and even then they'd just be breaking even, not saving.
There are some parts that aren't doubled, though. Like the heads. Same for halflings as well.
So I guess it wasn't especially cheaper to make the not-doubled parts on a separate mould and just double the other sprues.
Many of recent sprues prior to that did not fit on one frame either. (Salamanders, Naiads, Men At Arms)
I guess that when you're already spilling over onto two, you might as well take up the whole frame.
EDIT: I also don't imagine that 50% of the tool size means 50% of the tooling cost.
Basically, this is a new 3rd ed.KoW starter. The older starters Shadows of the North and War in the Holds are still valid, but will not be reissued once existing stock runs out. I think this is a good idea, as not everyone will want the combinations offered, and this method gives Mantic a chance of making a sale to holdouts who did not like the previous starter(s).
I like the variety of starters available at one time, you don't see that often within a single edition of a game. Coincidentally, I fancy the Riftforged line but haven't been very attracted to the current army sets (spoiler: I don't want the cyclopes), however the RO half of this starter is just what I'm looking for:
Boss Salvage wrote: I like the variety of starters available at one time, you don't see that often within a single edition of a game. Coincidentally, I fancy the Riftforged line but haven't been very attracted to the current army sets (spoiler: I don't want the cyclopes), however the RO half of this starter is just what I'm looking for:
krijthebold wrote: Well, I've just been getting into halflings of various kinds, so half of that at least looks pretty ideal for me.
Well then, it sounds like you two need to split the box. Problem solved
Cheers for the heads-up! Here's a handy link ... that has to be pasted in because of brackets: https://www.miniaturemarket.com/landing?p=minis-sale&filter[]=manufacturer_uFilter:%22Mantic%20Games%22&filter[]=product_tag_uFilter:%22On%20Sale%22
The more I convert my Mantic Games halflings, the more I get remembered how Mantic Games plastic kits aren't that great in quality. They work good enough, but for the current price, it's more difficult to justify the hassle honestly.
Their decision to put cavalry and infantry in the same box is really a poor one to me. Buying lots of boxes so that I have a decent number of infantries and now I'm left with way too many dog cavalry that I really need. And it's not like it's something on high demand in second-hand market...
Not too long ago, we were talking over on the KoW Forum about the general lack of variety or updates when it comes to minigame mounts through the years, especially when it comes to plastic. Like with Mantic (look at the Frostfang beasties which IIRC are all the same, or the atrocious horses of different flavors that are still kicking around from 1E) but also with Warhammer for many editions - think back to the few plastic horse bodies with different metal heads with so many kits, or that goofy snarling Elf horse that was around forever. A member of the Mantic production team stepped in to talk about how cavalry is tough for miniature producers, because they're producing two entirely unique minis - sculpts, moulds, casts - but can't necessarily charge double for what is very nearly double the cost in time and money.*
Modern GW gets around this by charging quite a bit more for cavalry, sometimes excessively so thanks to the magic of Battlefield Role Pricing (the 5 for $100+ metal Blood Knights from back when still blow my mind, tho it was a lot worse when they cost even more and were in finecast ) (3 for $100 Varanguard was a tough pill as well, but at least they were huge?) (on the flipside, I was stunned when the plastic Blood Knights debuted recently at 5 for $60!)
It appears that Mantic has tackled the cost issue with the new Halfling cav by tying their sales to interest in the infantry where possible, which might also be because they saved on tooling by putting the dogs and mounted rider parts on the same sprue. If Mantic had a different pricing model (ala GW) or maybe just more money for production (ala GW), they could have separated the dogs out? It is an interesting compromise, and not one I love.**
*Fittingly, I've painted almost no cav models in my 27 years of wargaming, almost entirely because I don't like painting two models for 'one' mini
**It's worse in the case of swarms, which are frustratingly included a few at a time on the sprues of various plastic kits. Snow Foxes are one of the best - and cheapest! - units in the game, yet they're also one of the hardest to buy from Mantic
Historicals do charge the same for 12 cav as they do for 30-50 infantry so there's that...
Since Mantic now has a habit of tooling two sprues to make 1 sprue's worth of bits I'm not sure if that's what's holding them back from doing plastic cavalry
Please bear in mind that the Great Switch will take time, so not all metal minis will be switching to resin straight away. You may find that your fantastic local gaming store may hold older stock of metal models for quite some time. Whilst the switch is in motion you may receive either metal or resin versions.
Yessssss nice healthy list and the resin looks great. I'll celebrate by finally getting the Mantic Gigas and putting my various counts as to other purposes. Cool they took the opportunity to tweak the scale on a thing or two - I've only heard of the Enslaved Guardian change, dunno if more is planned?
stonehorse wrote: Those Zombie Trolls look just like the metal ones, so that is a great thing. Hope the price is cheaper.
Oh you were serious .
Go on then, point our how beside being a different medium they look different. I'm looking at the these and looking at my metal Zombie Trolls and I fail to see what is different.
stonehorse wrote: Those Zombie Trolls look just like the metal ones, so that is a great thing. Hope the price is cheaper.
Oh you were serious .
Go on then, point our how beside being a different medium they look different. I'm looking at the these and looking at my metal Zombie Trolls and I fail to see what is different.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:I think the laughter was aimed at your hope for cheaper prices.
Indeed. No good news goes unpunished in some way. "Well since we are improving the quality and availability of the models, it only makes sense to improve the costs". Who cares if it streamlines production and reduces costs, it WILL cost more.
Slightly off-topic, but what medium is cheaper to cast commercially, metal or resin? My bias is that metal casting is cheaper, but that's due to some home-casting experience. Even in the early 80s, as a junior high school student, I was able to buy Prince August molds, a small electric melter, and lead-tin alloy. Prince August still exists, should anyone be interested, but home-cast figures are very low quality, and even the worst 3D printer figures I've seen have better crisper detail than what my molds produced.
Personally, I've had bad experiences with resin figures, and try to avoid them. They break too easily (arms and long weapons). So my preference in materials are:
1. Plastic (whatever type is the model plastic WGA, Northstar and others use). Light and easy to convert.
2. Metal (resilient, usually).
3. Resin (Better detail, but fragile.)
4. Cardboard. (I've used standees before, mostly in my college days as the vast bulk of my collection was in my parents' house. Although that was for RPGs, not mini wargaming.)
I think resin casting is cheaper, by a lot, than metal. I've also heard of lots of supply chain issues impacting metal minis more so than resin
I think my listing of preferences would be similar to yours, except cardboard standees wouldn't make the list. If I can't get a mini, they ain't makin' it into my armies!
I've had a lot of trouble with resin, but with 3d printing and Mantic's new in-house resin stuff, I find the newer wave of resin minis to be much more forgiving and easy to work with
it really depends on the amount of models and the specific technique, as spin casting with rubber moulds has different per model cost than silicon mould casting
for low amount of models, silicon mold resin casting is cheaper, for high amount of models, spin casting metal is cheaper
and spin casting resin is not that easy, with GWs finecast (though they were trying on saving money by using the very same moulds which did not work well) and Warlord Games being examples were it did not work well, while Raging Heroes is on the good end
NinthMusketeer wrote: Mantic resin needs to compete pretty directly against 3d printing, we'll have to see how much staying power it has.
Any manufacturer cannot compete directly with 3D printing. You don't pay staff for printing your stuff at home, but companies do pay their staff to pack or produce models. It's comparing apples to oranges and demanding that the apple should be better at being an orange.
define "compete"
good casted resin is still better in detail than 3d prints, smaller models or plastic armies are still cheaper
you get plastic model details for resin model prices or with a lot of time if you do it on your own
the things were 3D printing is competing is terrain
kodos wrote: define "compete"
good casted resin is still better in detail than 3d prints, smaller models or plastic armies are still cheaper
you get plastic model details for resin model prices or with a lot of time if you do it on your own
the things were 3D printing is competing is terrain
That is changing as resin printing gets better and cheaper. Still way more time consuming than any other process but printing your own minis is already cheaper than plastic.
As printing companies proliferate and compete the cost per mini to have figures printed for you is dropping too. In some cases it's near the price of even affordable plastic minis.
Resin, plastic and metal still have an edge in detail and quality, but not only is the gap closing but I still believe that most folks don't need or utilize all that ultra fine detail anyway.
Resin, plastic and metal still have an edge in detail and quality, but not only is the gap closing but I still believe that most folks don't need or utilize all that ultra fine detail anyway.
yes and no, for wargaming you don't need that details, you don't even need a resin printer as the quality on a FDM one is perfectly fine to print a regiment on multi-base for KoW in one piece (use aceton or hiqh liquid resin to soften the gaps and be done)
but GWs marketing is very good here to raise the need for high detailed models for gaming, making people only accept the highest details no matter the price (as long as it is GW, everyone else needs better quality and must be cheaper), no matter if people can utilize it or not
in reality, models just need to be good enough for gaming, Rank and File models need to rank up, Skirmish models may come in more action like poses, and they just need to look good an arm length away with small difference on each model so they look different from the distance (hence free to glue arms and heads, as even if you try they will never look identical)
Eilif wrote: but printing your own minis is already cheaper than plastic.
this now depends on which plastic minis you take as reference
everything is cheaper compared to Games Workshop, no matter the process, were going with the standard price for plastics of 0,5-1,5€ per model with 2€ models are already considered expensive
when people compare the cost they usually than just take the cost of the resin needed to print, which depends on the quality of the resin but is somewhere between 0,3-1€ per model
but this are just the material cost, no energy, no cleaning, no cost for the machinery
if I buy myself a injection molding machine, vor 80k, each mold being between 300-3000€ depending on the material and how many runs I want to make, and I can cast single models for 0,01€ on material cost, so a fraction of what resin costs because I ignore everything else
as soon as you add the other costs, initial investment (which is not only the printer, but the cleaning and curing machinery, as well as any changes to the room if you don't have something like a spare bathroom), maintenance, energy, cleaning material etc your per model cost are in the range of the expensive plastics or above
and specially energy and resin are becoming more expensive now
while doing terrain with fdm is a different story, pla is cheaper than resin, you need no curing or special cleaning, and you can print large hollow models which saves on material
here 3D printing is on the same level as the cheap MDF/Lasercut terrain
PS: and not everyone can resin-print, if you are single with no pets and don't care about your health, having the printer in your bedroom and get models for cheap
otherwise you need a dedicated room you can lock, with a good ventilation system that is easy to clean if needed
Honestly this is a case where it isn't so much about 3d print quality as it is Mantic's quality. Quite a lot of their resins are not better than standard 3d print fare, and far more expensive to boot.
Some interesting (and very early) preorders up on wayland, for a new "Dungeon Adventures" line launching Halloween this year.
Mostly look like repacks of Dungeon Saga minis but there's two £40 boxes that look caught my eye since the descriptions hint at being a themed boxed game.
Swords, sorcerers, monsters and a dangerous adventure beyond compare. Assume the roles of mighty heroes and as they take on evil monsters in tight, twisting dungeon passages to thwart the vile Necromancer in his never ending quest to conquer the World!
journey into the heart of a mysterious mausoleum, plagued with undead horrors.
Interesting. Is this going to be part of a push with a new dungeon crawler ruleset? Because man, did Jake Thornton not deliver on what Mantic promised in the Kickstarter.
I mean, they are "OK". Maybe it's the nostalgia, but the ancient GW multipart skeletons from the late 90's/early 2000's, with the Tomb King add-ons are STILL better skeletons than those.
They look awesome to me, especially the horsey-dudes. There’s also a pseudo-khopesh close combat weapon option shown on Facebook that looks better than the spears or the bows.
I’ll probably make a handful for fantasy tussles, but the majority are getting cut up to fit onto WGA Egyptians or someone chanmailed for use in Sci Fi gaming. The helmets are hopefully large enough for the skull faces to pass as faceplates, otherwise I’ll have to Face/Off.
Agreed, they could introduce them so much better. As to minis they are definitely not the best skellies out there but they are great for what they are made for = rank&file games. Having all the options is even better. Now give me the updated medieval ones (aka not Vampire Counts ones)!
Other than that, I'm most thoroughly whelmed. Far from the worst skellies I've seen but they're not exactly good. The 'Notshubati' would be pretty decent if it weren't for whatever weirdness is going on in the unarmoured sections.
lord_blackfang wrote: Mantic should just buy the rights to one of the many $10 3d print patreons that have much better sculptors than Mantic.
Agree. The details on these is about on par with their original elves and skeletons. Not looking for GW level of over detailing things but these don’t make me want to buy
Thanks for reposting the pics, I can't be bothered to watch any of these videos that game companies put out to "hype up" their releases / meet the demands of social media algorithms.
lord_blackfang wrote: Mantic should just buy the rights to one of the many $10 3d print patreons that have much better sculptors than Mantic.
In Mantic's defense, I think it's admirable that these EoD look different from the dozens of not-Tomb Kings 3D sculpts on the market at this point (thanks to the heavy use of cloth and non-GW armor). I'm not going to argue they're better than the 3D offerings, which run the gamut of delightfully simpler (One Print Rules) to deliciously overwrought (Arch Villain Games), but it's still relevant to provide traditionally produced not-Egyptian Undead as of June 2022. And I suppose when it comes to just buying one of the several not-TK 3D lines out and producing them, it does seem important that the EOD look like the other Mantic minis, as hamfisted as they can be at times.
Overall? These seem fine and I'm happy to see another KOW line expand significantly. I'm hoping rumors of chariots is true, those are badly needed on the market in general, and a bit rough to 3D print if you don't have a large bed printer (doing 1 chariot at a time on my Mars is a drag).
No, I'm just saying there's literally hundreds of better sculptors in this hobby but Mantic clearly can't afford to commission anyone who's already making a middle class wage on Patreon, so we're getting sprues designed on Fiverr apparently.
well, who of those on Patreon that is better designs plastic models?
just because someone makes 3D files to print with resin does not mean they are better designers and can make better looking HIPS models
as far as I know Mantic has the same commissioned designer for alle models, so the one who makes the Resin Salamanders also makes the plastic stuff
and there the limitation is not the design but the process as you have to find the middle ground between too complicated and time consuming to assemble and looks very good (and the main complain you read nowadays is that they the older models too complicated to build)
just going to a designer who makes files for a printer (and usually only 1 type of printer) and assume the HIPS models will look identical is a waste of money and time
kodos wrote: well, who of those on Patreon that is better designs plastic models?
just because someone makes 3D files to print with resin does not mean they are better designers and can make better looking HIPS models
Yup, this in a nutshell. The actual pool of sculptors with experience in sculpting for plastic is fairly small, and I suspect that as a result most of them will be in active employment rather than lurking on Patreon.
These look fine to me. My one big issue with them was that the drapery looks a bit off... but going by the unpainted models in the video, at least some of that would seem to be from the painting rather than the sculpts.
for my liking there is too much drapery/fabric/cloth on the models
I can see why the horses are as they are, compared to the old pure bone undead horses from GW and that people complain about the Enforcer legs, doing it that way makes handling them much easier (those are still gaming models)
Overall I like them, a less colourful paint scheme should work really well here like white or black fabric instead of the blue
AegisGrimm wrote: I mean, they are "OK". Maybe it's the nostalgia, but the ancient GW multipart skeletons from the late 90's/early 2000's, with the Tomb King add-ons are STILL better skeletons than those.
On a personal note, I've been collecting undead for 20 years now. Those old, bow legged skeletons are still rock solid models, if outdated.
The wargames Atlantic skeletons are a definite step up in detail with a change of theme. They are also thick enough to withstand wargaming, and being naked are easy to change theme by using different shields.
Oathmark skellies remind me of the skeleton horde box GW made before the bow legged skeletons we've both mentioned. Very thin models, prone to breakage.
Warlord games/ wargames factory are also similarly thin and breakable.
The new soulblight skeletons from GW are great, but the Femur's snap easily during assembly.
Mantic's intial skeletons/revenants are a 7/10 detail wise. They unfortunately suffer from odd details (like the army of darkness grinning skulls) and are not as adaptable due to integrated shields and a mass amount of cloth.
If the new EoD are better than the old skeletons I'll eat my hat though. The old skeletons were tooled by Renendra and are (or were, when i built 300 of them) crisp. Mantic's new plastics have had a tendency to be soft on detail, and especially towards the left and right sides of the torso/legs. This is most noticeable on the newer stormforged orcs.
These are just... 2000s era quality. They aren't distinctly bad per say, but they are 15 years out of date. The prices will need to be really dam good to seriously move these.
the chinese manufactorer combined with a solid body (legs+torso) does not work well on chunky models, while the Halflings look fine
so I don't expect the same problem with the EoD as those are thinner
But in the long run, Mantic need to get their production back to Europe
kodos wrote: it is also noticable on the Warpath Marauders
the chinese manufactorer combined with a solid body (legs+torso) does not work well on chunky models, while the Halflings look fine
so I don't expect the same problem with the EoD as those are thinner
But in the long run, Mantic need to get their production back to Europe
Its not the fact that the manufacturer is in china. Wargames atlantic produced plenty of sets when they had their manufacturing in china last year, and they are all fine.
Its this specific manufacturer, and potentially one of a few problem vectors: Bad engineering or bad sculpting (always a potential, although I doubt a sculptor would leave the sides of the torso's so softly detailed.) would likely be the culprit.
I meant their current manufactorer in china, as far as I know, they had different ones over time and each one with different problems and this one now does not get chunky models right
and also WGA tries to move out from China, for different reasons but still
doing away from China would solve some problems, one being able to react faster (or at all) to such problems without a large delay
WGA has the advantage that they can wait for a specific kit to be done right, if they would release a boxed set with rules and having 1 faction ready while the other one sees a 6 months delay because of bad engineering it would look different
kodos wrote: I meant their current manufactorer in china, as far as I know, they had different ones over time and each one with different problems and this one now does not get chunky models right
and also WGA tries to move out from China, for different reasons but still
doing away from China would solve some problems, one being able to react faster (or at all) to such problems without a large delay
WGA has the advantage that they can wait for a specific kit to be done right, if they would release a boxed set with rules and having 1 faction ready while the other one sees a 6 months delay because of bad engineering it would look different
Hard to make out much from the pics, since there aren't closeups or sprue pics.
Cavalry look great. I think a different paint scheme than primary blue would help, along with some variation in the colour of the metal.
Looking at the distribution of minis in army set vs. mega army it looks like the cavalry will be a separate kit rather than combined like the halflings were.
From what I understand, this is one of Mantic's best-selling armies (even with the old minis) so it makes sense that they've gone back to it with hard plastics. It's nice to see an older mini line getting the attention.
If the sides of the torso are an issue it's probably an indication that the person sculpting wasn't paying enough attention to the needs of the mould maker in making sure that when the figure was cut there were no overhangs that would stick in the mould
and the person doing the cutting the file for mould making didn't talk to the sculptor after doing so and fudged the edges to make them work in the mould
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: If the sides of the torso are an issue it's probably an indication that the person sculpting wasn't paying enough attention to the needs of the mould maker in making sure that when the figure was cut there were no overhangs that would stick in the mould
and the person doing the cutting the file for mould making didn't talk to the sculptor after doing so and fudged the edges to make them work in the mould
Exactly. There should have been at least two review and revision processes before tooling occurred.
Exactly. There should have been at least two review and revision processes before tooling occurred.
Those words aren't in Mantic's vocabulary. Time and again it's pretty obvious they just send the first concept to production withoutr a second thought. They do with minis what GW does with rules.
Mantic also had the *brilliant* idea of making a single big sprue with every bit doubled up. Instead of y'know, either making a smaller sprue and doubling up on it, or actually making use out of all the space on the sprue.
And also they put all the mould lines for the heads right in the middle of the face.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Mantic also had the *brilliant* idea of making a single big sprue with every bit doubled up. Instead of y'know, either making a smaller sprue and doubling up on it, or actually making use out of all the space on the sprue.
And also they put all the mould lines for the heads right in the middle of the face.
Exactly. There should have been at least two review and revision processes before tooling occurred.
Those words aren't in Mantic's vocabulary. Time and again it's pretty obvious they just send the first concept to production withoutr a second thought. They do with minis what GW does with rules.
Which is honestly distressing, and part of why I have had concerns with their direction since the first basilean men at arms fiasco years ago.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Mantic also had the *brilliant* idea of making a single big sprue with every bit doubled up. Instead of y'know, either making a smaller sprue and doubling up on it, or actually making use out of all the space on the sprue.
And also they put all the mould lines for the heads right in the middle of the face.
Which kit are you referring to?
Deadzone Marauder Commandos, the quintessential Mantic plastic kit. For some reason, instead of making a single sprue with limited variety of bits and including several in the box, like your Wargames Atlantic and Parabellum and all of your historicals ever, they decided to make a single big sprue with all your bodies in the vein of Geedubs... but then just include two copies of almost every single bit on it, rendering the entire point of casting one big sprue entirely moot. That kit is also notorious for really crappy detail on the sides of the torso, and the fact all the heads are cast on the sprue sideways, meaning there's a big ol' mould line going down right the middle of every single head in the kit.
I actually quite like these undead fellas. I've got a bajillion Tomb Kings models - been collecting since they launched, and the only WFB army I have remaining - and I kinda want some of these. Could totally work for an army raised from a different city, like Numas or something.
Serviceable as back rankers, for all the historicals gamers who get that.
Agreed on both counts. Mantic quality and price is such that they'd have gotten more of my dollar if there wasn't a robust used market. Unfortunately even as the used deals on some categories get harder to find, it looks like other companies are challenging Mantic hard on price and quality.
I've begun speaking with Mantic about getting a trade account set up.
Mcdougall Designs will initially be carrying a limited range of mantic products at somewhere between a 15-20% discount off RRP, although I can happily discuss special orders for anything that doesn't make it to my webstore.
Initial thoughts were kings of war, some warpath/firefight, and armada. What would you all like to see available?
@McDougall - Would you be selling individual sprues of Mantic kits, as you do with Wargames Atlantic's stuff? That would be of interest for kitbashing.
I'd also be happy to buy a single veer-myn tunnel runner without having to order it with international shipping, not that I expect you to carry one just for my sake.
Vermonter wrote: @McDougall - Would you be selling individual sprues of Mantic kits, as you do with Wargames Atlantic's stuff? That would be of interest for kitbashing.
I'd also be happy to buy a single veer-myn tunnel runner without having to order it with international shipping, not that I expect you to carry one just for my sake.
Those skeletons, both infantry and cavalry are God-awful.
Seriously do Mantic think it is still the 1990's? The Ushabti and characters seem passable however. May pick up those for my Tomb Kings if they are a decent price.
stonehorse wrote: Those skeletons, both infantry and cavalry are God-awful.
Seriously do Mantic think it is still the 1990's? The Ushabti and characters seem passable however. May pick up those for my Tomb Kings if they are a decent price.
What would you change to make the skeletons better?
I'd just magically transform them into the old Games Workshop Tomb Kings skeleton box, really.
Sure they had some cartoon proportions, but damn, the skeletons in that kit (because they were essentially the same as the Gothic Skeletons) held up for a looooong time as just some good plastic skeletons, and the Tomb Kings equipment was pretty great. I would assume that Mantic could improve on a 20+ year old models, but they didn't.
stonehorse wrote: Those skeletons, both infantry and cavalry are God-awful.
Seriously do Mantic think it is still the 1990's? The Ushabti and characters seem passable however. May pick up those for my Tomb Kings if they are a decent price.
What would you change to make the skeletons better?
Where to start?
● Too much fabric on them, reduce it by about 75%.
● Weapons look oversized, unwieldy, and wobbly, the spears and Bows need to be thinner by a good bit.
● Bare skulls look malformed.
● Too much armour on them, reduce it by 50%
● Horses have far too much bling on them, should be an option to add fabric and armour to a skeleton horse.
● Details look soft, in this day and age, that is unforgivable.
● The price hasn't been released yet, but I am willing to bet they add up being expensive for what they are, around €30 for 20 infantry. Which is laughable when we look at what Northstar, and Warlord games offer.
● Paint job is also doing them no favours, why do Mantic insist on blue for their Undead? Personally I think the fabric should be a lighter colour to help contrast with the bone and metal. A grey or off white.
privateer4hire wrote: Don’t worry. Their August price increase will make those who purchase now be glad they didn’t pay more later on.
Maybe?
Another price increase? Haven't seen any talk of that, but I haven't been keeping track with Mantic for a while.
Exactly. There should have been at least two review and revision processes before tooling occurred.
Those words aren't in Mantic's vocabulary. Time and again it's pretty obvious they just send the first concept to production withoutr a second thought. They do with minis what GW does with rules.
This is possibly the most savage insult I have ever read.
privateer4hire wrote: Don’t worry. Their August price increase will make those who purchase now be glad they didn’t pay more later on.
Maybe?
Mantic fans don't care about that. They'll buy anything with eyes closed because "they're better than GW".
To me, it's clear the price increase on Mantic products make it not worth the hassle anymore. I did finish my halfling army, and after building 200 of them...I can tell I was not impressed with the way their sprues were built. Not very detailed as well, and I paid a premium price for having the "honor" of being forced to take 10 infantry et 5 cavalry every time.
Don't worry, as long as Mantic Games keeps its fanbase motivated, they'll do fine. Facts don't matter anymore in this world.
privateer4hire wrote:Don’t worry. Their August price increase will make those who purchase now be glad they didn’t pay more later on.
Maybe?
I have not heard anything about an increase and I'm retailer with a direct trade account.
Sarouan wrote:
privateer4hire wrote: Don’t worry. Their August price increase will make those who purchase now be glad they didn’t pay more later on.
Maybe?
Mantic fans don't care about that. They'll buy anything with eyes closed because "they're better than GW".
To me, it's clear the price increase on Mantic products make it not worth the hassle anymore. I did finish my halfling army, and after building 200 of them...I can tell I was not impressed with the way their sprues were built. Not very detailed as well, and I paid a premium price for having the "honor" of being forced to take 10 infantry et 5 cavalry every time.
Don't worry, as long as Mantic Games keeps its fanbase motivated, they'll do fine. Facts don't matter anymore in this world.
I don't know what "a premium is", but for curiositys sake: is it over $20 USD?
privateer4hire wrote: Don’t worry. Their August price increase will make those who purchase now be glad they didn’t pay more later on.
Maybe?
Mantic fans don't care about that. They'll buy anything with eyes closed because "they're better than GW".
To me, it's clear the price increase on Mantic products make it not worth the hassle anymore. I did finish my halfling army, and after building 200 of them...I can tell I was not impressed with the way their sprues were built. Not very detailed as well, and I paid a premium price for having the "honor" of being forced to take 10 infantry et 5 cavalry every time.
Don't worry, as long as Mantic Games keeps its fanbase motivated, they'll do fine. Facts don't matter anymore in this world.
I do not know a single Mantic fan capable of saying something like that. In fact I do not know Mantic fans, I know people who like (some on) their games and usually play them with other firms' miniatures, usually GW.
In the other and I do know a plethora of GW enthusiastic who are not capable of play or simply consider anything else that is not GW. And you know, 90% of GW's ruleset are rubbish.
stonehorse wrote: Another price increase? Haven't seen any talk of that, but I haven't been keeping track with Mantic for a while.
they increased minimum spend for shipping and removed the free-shipping option for Europe (now a flat 20€ for any order)
the actual price increase is unkown but 5€ for the Army and Mega Army is already in place with EoD so something around that
(though not all 3rd party shops carry this over, like we still have some who sell the stock with the old prices before the last release)
and there will be a summer sale before that, but with 20€ shipping there has to be a big discount to make it worth
stonehorse wrote: Another price increase? Haven't seen any talk of that, but I haven't been keeping track with Mantic for a while.
they increased minimum spend for shipping and removed the free-shipping option for Europe (now a flat 20€ for any order)
the actual price increase is unkown but 5€ for the Army and Mega Army is already in place with EoD so something around that
(though not all 3rd party shops carry this over, like we still have some who sell the stock with the old prices before the last release)
and there will be a summer sale before that, but with 20€ shipping there has to be a big discount to make it worth
If the €20 charge to Europe means no more being stung with a customs charge, then that is an improvement. Last order I placed with Mantic had a near 40% customs charge, which I understand is not Mantic's fault. However it did put me off from ordering from them.
I suspect that the price increase will be on their metal models.
I have to say, I never paid custom charges, but very high "fees" to the shipping company for checking that everything is ok (so I had the 40% too, but from those it was just 3€ customs and the rest was fees from DPD for "checking", with a different ccompany I paid nothing extra)
Here’s an excerpt:
“…Just like before when we’ve been forced to change prices, I don’t want to surprise you with the increases, and I’m giving you plenty of notice so you can sneak in before the rise.
We’ll be implementing the price rises on our website and to our retail partners from August 1st – which means you’ve got a whole month to fill your boots before they creep up...”
I can see the complaints on the spears and bows being too big and silly. I don’t get complaints about the armor. The helmeted heads have a style that doesn’t work for everyone, but isn’t bad. Complaining that elite undead horsemen from a rich empire have too much bling…nope. Mantic’s detail has been shallow on the sides for their last few kits, so that’s fair enough, but the fronts and backs have been quite decent with detail.
If you want naked skeletons, there are tons of options already. If you want Tomb Kings exactly as they were, you can find them 3D printed for not too much more per mini than Mantic, cheaper if you print them yourself. You can get those cheap names skeletons and then buy 3D printed Tomb Kings shields and heads for a great price. For a fantasy undead Egyptian army that isn’t Exact copies of Tomb Kings, they’re great. The swords and shields are very fantasy, (Plastic historical versions will be available soon enough.). The armor and helmets are distinctive and fun. If they’re not for you, fine, but I don’t see these as being awful or worse than the old Tomb Kings base infantry.
I have the original Tomb Kings and the only good thing from the kit were the heads and the shields
The models were awful to build and transport and did not really fit with the rest of the line
One reason the last release of TK failed was that GW did not updated the core units
Regarding the Mantic ones, I would have liked is less cloths and enough heads without helmets for a troop
The overall look fits the theme and fluff of the EoD, and it is not something that is already out there
So any bits should add more head options or some bodies with less cloths
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Complaining that elite undead horsemen from a rich empire have too much bling…nope.
Not sure Undead Skeletons and Elite are words that go together. The plastics have more bling than the previewed mounted character, a bit of bling, sure. Bits of armour on the horses legs and head. Like I said the armour should be reduced by about 50%.
Didn't say I wanted naked skeletons, said 75% less fabric. Not quite the same as naked.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If you want Tomb Kings exactly as they were, you can find them 3D printed for not too much more per mini than Mantic, cheaper if you print them yourself. You can get those cheap names skeletons and then buy 3D printed Tomb Kings shields and heads for a great price.
Never said I did want Tomb Kings as they were, I listed why these are god-awful. Mantic should be aware of how many skeleton kits are available on the market, because these are very poor compared to what is currently available. I just don't understand how Mantic can think it is passable to make such poor quality models (not just aesthetics, wonky weapons, soft detail, weird skulls).
BobtheInquisitor wrote: For a fantasy undead Egyptian army that isn’t Exact copies of Tomb Kings, they’re great. The swords and shields are very fantasy, (Plastic historical versions will be available soon enough.). The armor and helmets are distinctive and fun. If they’re not for you, fine, but I don’t see these as being awful or worse than the old Tomb Kings base infantry.
It is no secret that Mantic's business model is to be a knock off GW, so these are very much meant to be Tomb Kings, not exact, as that would be an infringement of GW's designs. The old kit (20 years old) has sharper detail, has weapons that don't look wonky. Compared to this new Mantic kit, which let's not forget is aiming to be a direct comparison it is arse.
I'm sure those who think Mantic can do no harm will buy them.
It is no secret that Mantic's business model is to be a knock off GW, so these are very much meant to be Tomb Kings, not exact, as that would be an infringement of GW's designs. The old kit (20 years old) has sharper detail, has weapons that don't look wonky. Compared to this new Mantic kit, which let's not forget is aiming to be a direct comparison it is arse.
I'm sure those who think Mantic can do no harm will buy them.
I have a bunch of Tomb kings skeletons, and those weapons are wonky as hell. Super thick spear hafts and gigantic spear blades.
Still agree that they knock these out of the park though
It is no secret that Mantic's business model is to be a knock off GW, so these are very much meant to be Tomb Kings.
this would be a very bad business as TK do not exist any more, and legacy players want 1:1 copies of OOP models and not just something similar
Mantic started as a cheaper alternative to GW, which they still are thanks to GWs ridicules prices, but they changed this some years ago and this release simply serves Kings of War (and Ninth Age as the only other R&F game out there with similar themed undead)
if this would be a GW knock off they failed hard as the current GW theme of other Undead are the Bone Reapers
stonehorse wrote: I just don't understand how Mantic can think it is passable to make such poor quality models (not just aesthetics, wonky weapons, soft detail, weird skulls)
one thing is that people want easier to build kits and yes that the better looking Mantic kits are also those that take more time (or skill) to build is the the 2nd main complain around the web (close behind after that not all KoW armies are available to buy from Mantic)
so solid bodies (too much armour and cloths) and wonkey weapons are there to help with that
and at least for the weapons I am no friend of the realistic/thinner weapons as they break to easy while too big is also a problem but for a gaming piece I rather have them too big than too thin (have that on too many historical kits were I need to replace all spears with copper wire to get them on the table without damage)
in general I am not a big fan of this, I rather have more complicated to build models than those large solid single body stuff like the Riftforged Orcs
Here’s an excerpt:
“…Just like before when we’ve been forced to change prices, I don’t want to surprise you with the increases, and I’m giving you plenty of notice so you can sneak in before the rise.
We’ll be implementing the price rises on our website and to our retail partners from August 1st – which means you’ve got a whole month to fill your boots before they creep up...”
Thank you. I may have to make some reminder posts about getting orders in before my 10th of the month cut off for special orders on mantic.
Don't want the customer base missing out on good prices on cool miniatures before there's a price rise.
It is no secret that Mantic's business model is to be a knock off GW, so these are very much meant to be Tomb Kings.
this would be a very bad business as TK do not exist any more, and legacy players want 1:1 copies of OOP models and not just something similar
Mantic started as a cheaper alternative to GW, which they still are thanks to GWs ridicules prices, but they changed this some years ago and this release simply serves Kings of War (and Ninth Age as the only other R&F game out there with similar themed undead)
if this would be a GW knock off they failed hard as the current GW theme of other Undead are the Bone Reapers.
Tomb Kings may not exist anymore, however Empire of Dust are a Mantic version of them.
Skeleton infantry armed with shield and spear/handweapon, or Bows.
Skeleton cavalry armed with shield and spear/handweapon, or Bows.
Orge/troll sized living statues armed with large weapons.
Catapults that launch magical flaming skulls.
Etc.
They are a Mantic version of the now out of production Tomb Kings. Mantic introduced Empire of Dust when GW dropped their support for Tomb Kings, same goes for Bretonnians and Brotherhood. Yes over the years Mantic have started to make those things their own, but they are still deeply rooted to their GW predecessor.
stonehorse wrote: I just don't understand how Mantic can think it is passable to make such poor quality models (not just aesthetics, wonky weapons, soft detail, weird skulls)
one thing is that people want easier to build kits and yes that the better looking Mantic kits are also those that take more time (or skill) to build is the the 2nd main complain around the web (close behind after that not all KoW armies are available to buy from Mantic)
so solid bodies (too much armour and cloths) and wonkey weapons are there to help with that
and at least for the weapons I am no friend of the realistic/thinner weapons as they break to easy while too big is also a problem but for a gaming piece I rather have them too big than too thin (have that on too many historical kits were I need to replace all spears with copper wire to get them on the table without damage)
in general I am not a big fan of this, I rather have more complicated to build models than those large solid single body stuff like the Riftforged Orcs
They can make easier to assemble models that are good, I have shed loads of their hard plastic Abyssal Dwarfs. They are gorgeous models, and a better interpretation of the old GW Chaos Dwarfs they are based off. So, Mantic have shown they can make good models... just sadly they don't do
CoK 21 comes with rules for fighting in the magical planes, additional background and special characters (fluff and rules), the actual rules updates are 2 pages
CoK 22 comes with the Halfling and Riftforged Ocrs army list, a campaign and extensive rules updates
if you like reading the fluff and want more magic in the campaign, there is still value in a 1/3 priced CoK21
CoK22 adds a lot of possible army builds to the game with the changes added, it is a really good addition to the game IMO. Of course, Easyarmy will tell you 99% of what you need anyways, but I like buying the CoK additions, as they have a very good track record on improving the game
I don't know what "a premium is", but for curiositys sake: is it over $20 USD?
It's just the way halfling boxes are packaged : 10 infantry and 5 cavalry. So if you want to make a 20 infantry regiment, you get a 10 cavalry regiment as well. You can't have one without the other.
It sucks if your intention is not to have that 10x5 ratio for infantry/cavalry in your army. And don't tell me "sell what you don't need to !"...not only Mantic Games miniatures are worthless on the market but cavalry halfling is even more worthless since everyone has way too many of them in their armies anyway. It's not even worth the price to ship the whole package to another particular anyway.
At least, it *seems* the EoD new boxes aren't packaged like this...thank goodness if this is the case, because it's a really awful sprue design decision if you ask me.
It is no secret that Mantic's business model is to be a knock off GW, so these are very much meant to be Tomb Kings.
this would be a very bad business as TK do not exist any more, and legacy players want 1:1 copies of OOP models and not just something similar
Mantic Games' Kings of War has always been about being a pale copy of Warhammer Battle armies.
If they wanted to really make EoD new, they could have started by stopping copying Tomb Kings units as their clear main inspiration. With the previews, they showed they didn't.
I think that tells everything that making sure they look similar to Tomb Kings is still important to them...and their fanbase. Because who do you think plays EoD ? Old Tomb Kings players, that's who. Because where else can they play their "killed" army now ? The Old World project is still far from being released, after all.
About the clothes and armors, they serve two purposes to me : adding sturdiness to the plastic models (28mm skeleton limbs tend to be easy to break if there are just bones maintaining the parts) and also make a reference to the different theme of the Empire of Dust in comparison to their "classic" skeleton box. I don't mind them.
They just look like miniatures you would have done in the 2000, that's all. And I don't care about their communication about price increase "in advance" and all - they're just a smaller GW trying desperatly not to look like it.
So, MG fans will still be their fans and the others...will still look at their products and say "meh, not worth the money".
Also, their shipping fees is still not interesting if you have the sin to live in Europa. I know Brexit is not MG's fault and they do what they can...but when GW covers everything up no charge and MG still does that, in the end...GW's quality gets on top in the customer's decision for the same amount.
TBH, as I see it, MG is talking more to their UK customers first recently than anything else. There are fewer and fewer shops to bother with their products on the continent now. Because it's not worh the hassle.
Mantic Halfling Cavalry are armored battle doggos. In plastic! Considering all the fantasy companion campaigns, I think you should be able to find RPGers willing to buy them for shipping at the very least.
As for EOD, their new chariot is the “Too bad YOU…will die!!” of chariots. Check it out. Hopefully it’s priced attractively, because it’s so damn goofy I think I need it.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Mantic Cavalry are armored battle doggos. In plastic! Considering all the fantasy companion campaigns, I think you should be able to find RPGers willing to buy them for shipping at the very least.
They look like classic undead horses to me. With clothes and armor, sure. Not like it doesn't exist in plastic already.
Maybe when separate boxes will be available. I don't know many RPGers taking a mega army for their campaign or needing 10+ more horsemen for a casual encounter.
I used to have a tomb kings army for warhammer 6th, which still has an active playerbase local to me (pretty much everyone plays KoW too, it's a competitive vs. beer n pretzels split which determines which one gets attention).
Very tempted to revive the old army with the new Mantic minis, the old GW release was pretty weak, it was just a shield and head sprue added to the ancient plastic skeleton kit and some mediocre metals (assembling the metal tomb scorpion was particularly annoying).
The 8th edition kits were good, but only on sale for a brief snippet of time before the old world went boom and they shot up to £200+ on ebay.
The army never really got any good attention, it's no wonder it has been a popular choice with 3d printing. It's a popular theme, I remember Mantic saying that EoD is one of their top sellers, which explains why it is now getting 2 hard plastic kits from them.
I'm quite happy to see an old GW army get a release with usable hard plastic matching the old unit entries.
I could probably use the infantry as tomb guard, split the cavalry into light and heavy to fill core slots, add bone giant and scorpions from reaper bones and the army would pretty much be done.
Mantic Games' Kings of War has always been about being a pale copy of Warhammer Battle armies.
I'm fairly certain that was never the intention. As far as I understand things, the objective with getting Alessio to write a set of rules was to do more with their minis than be cheaper third party miniatures for Warhammer. Which pretty much the opposite of what you are suggesting.
If they wanted to really make EoD new, they could have started by stopping copying Tomb Kings units as their clear main inspiration. With the previews, they showed they didn't.
I think that tells everything that making sure they look similar to Tomb Kings is still important to them...and their fanbase. Because who do you think plays EoD ? Old Tomb Kings players, that's who. Because where else can they play their "killed" army now ? The Old World project is still far from being released, after all.
Why would they want to make EoD new? GW already did that, it's been the direction for most things since the End Times.
Mantic's direction has been to make the "Warhammer refugee" armies they included in Uncharted Empires their own while still leaving the door open to people with old Warhammer armies. So, yeah, keeping the "Undead Empire" theme is important and it has to be a dusty empire because that's what they have established.
It's a popular theme. Their old line which was mixed plactic, metal and resin sold well! That implies that there are more people than those who already have armies who want this kind of thing. Serving that demand sounds like a good idea to me. Doing so with "gaming models" rather than fancy stuff (like the .stl designers are putting out) might actually be intentional; little less competition for that.
The people who still want to play Tomb Kings are likely to go crawling back to GW when The Old World comes around and already own this, so not a great target IMO.
About the clothes and armors, they serve two purposes to me : adding sturdiness to the plastic models (28mm skeleton limbs tend to be easy to break if there are just bones maintaining the parts) and also make a reference to the different theme of the Empire of Dust in comparison to their "classic" skeleton box. I don't mind them.
I agree here.
These look like models designed to be wargamed with. Sturdy, should take basic paint techniques well and hopefully not too expensive (compared to some other companies at least). Made for the same kind of gamer that liked their dwarfs, but a tad nicer and more modern (just a tad though).
Leave the fancy works of sculpture that are not actually great for being pushed around on a wargaming table to GW and the .stl designers.
...I don't care about their communication about price increase "in advance" and all - they're just a smaller GW trying desperatly not to look like it.
Disagree form me. The similarity is that they are both wargaming companies that sell rules and miniatures.
They clearly have different business philosophies/priorities.
Mantic Games' Kings of War has always been about being a pale copy of Warhammer Battle armies.
I'm fairly certain that was never the intention. As far as I understand things, the objective with getting Alessio to write a set of rules was to do more with their minis than be cheaper third party miniatures for Warhammer. Which pretty much the opposite of what you are suggesting.
Yes and no. Armies from the 2nd Ed Uncharted Empires book were basically a reaction to finding out the Old World was coming to an end to ensure every player could switch systems regardless of army.
the 2nd Edi Uncharted Empire book was there to catch Warhammer Refugees, and the lists written with the Wahammer model range in mind
but this is also a reason why the army lists of the former UE factions changed much more than the other ones
and looking at the current EoD list and the 8th Edition TK list, there are not many similarities left outside the basic historical Egyptian theme (would have been tricky to make that list without Chariots, Infantry with Spears and basic Cavalry)
things changed a lot over time for both Mantic and GW and both are slowly going away from the old Warhammer
Mantic Games' Kings of War has always been about being a pale copy of Warhammer Battle armies.
I'm fairly certain that was never the intention. As far as I understand things, the objective with getting Alessio to write a set of rules was to do more with their minis than be cheaper third party miniatures for Warhammer. Which pretty much the opposite of what you are suggesting.
“Master, I have great news! You gave me 20’peasants and a chariot you commanded me to enhorse. I sacrificed ten peasants to raise the undead steed. But, master! In my devotion and shrewdness I remembered that I could double the undead steed’s strength with the lifeblood of only 5 peasants! With that savings, I can resurrect my brother-in-law, a skilled archer! It is for him, I have saddled the chariot horse! He is a valued fighter, yet I dare not stand him next to me in the chariot lest he still hold a grudge for my drowning him in the latrine.”
Uncanny, Bob: that was exactly the same story I got from that sculpt, word-for-word. (Well, except for the word "latrine." Since Mantic is British, my mind read that detail as "loo.")
Well those chariots are a big step up from the elf ones, but it still feels like so many of the pieces are a bit off and don't come together right. The awkward rider posing, the excessive cloth on the reigns, the horse having a saddle, the melted-goop neck armor... I do like the frame of the chariot itself though, that looks pretty cool.
Resin stuff from mantic is meaningless in my eyes, because a 3D printed alternatives are cheaper and at least as good if not better.
kodos wrote: and looking at the current EoD list and the 8th Edition TK list, there are not many similarities left outside the basic historical Egyptian theme (would have been tricky to make that list without Chariots, Infantry with Spears and basic Cavalry)
Every unit save heavy cav is a pretty direct representation of a Tomb Kings unit...
Mantic Games' Kings of War has always been about being a pale copy of Warhammer Battle armies.
I'm fairly certain that was never the intention. As far as I understand things, the objective with getting Alessio to write a set of rules was to do more with their minis than be cheaper third party miniatures for Warhammer. Which pretty much the opposite of what you are suggesting.
...have you looked at them?
Wait, are you arguing that Mantic’s elves were supposed to pass as cheaper GW elves? Mantic’s dwarfs with their deliberately distinct design were supposed to pass as generic GW dwarfs? Salamanders as Lizardmen? Mantic’s orcs had none of the characteristics that GW Orcs have. Their undead were popular with GW gamers, sure, but every other design seems to have been purposefully made not to look like the GW equivalent. Or good at all, some argue.
There’s a difference between Mantic selling cheap elves (that look like stick bugs rather than High Elves) and someone like Wargames Atlantic selling affordable Death Fields minis that look very similar to specific IG regiments. And both of those strategies seem to have done alright for their companies.
Mantic Games' Kings of War has always been about being a pale copy of Warhammer Battle armies.
I'm fairly certain that was never the intention. As far as I understand things, the objective with getting Alessio to write a set of rules was to do more with their minis than be cheaper third party miniatures for Warhammer. Which pretty much the opposite of what you are suggesting.
...have you looked at them?
Wait, are you arguing that Mantic’s elves were supposed to pass as cheaper GW elves? Mantic’s dwarfs with their deliberately distinct design were supposed to pass as generic GW dwarfs? Salamanders as Lizardmen? Mantic’s orcs had none of the characteristics that GW Orcs have. Their undead were popular with GW gamers, sure, but every other design seems to have been purposefully made not to look like the GW equivalent. Or good at all, some argue.
There’s a difference between Mantic selling cheap elves (that look like stick bugs rather than High Elves) and someone like Wargames Atlantic selling affordable Death Fields minis that look very similar to specific IG regiments. And both of those strategies seem to have done alright for their companies.
The popular mass model rank & flank fantasy game with Elves, Dwarfs, Greenskins, Ogres, Undead, etc was WFB at the time Mantic launched. Seeing as they made Elves, Dwarfs, Greenskins, Ogres, Undead, etc models on the same base sizes, same equipment load out as GW's WFB models, but for a fraction of the price it is quite obvious what Mantic were doing.
Yes the models had an aesthetic different to GW, that isn't the smoking gun you think it.
Those Chariots and monolith look crap...however, that Idol looks fantastic.
but true, the same argument Warlord Games Landsknechts are a Warhammer knock off
released were Warhammer was still out, same model and base size, and the theme is similar to the Empire Faction
Perry Miniatures 1450-1500 model line is a GW Knock off too
same size, same bases, same theme as the Empire
No one says that the initial plastic release from Mantic was not made with Warhammer in mind, of course as those were made before Mantic had their own game
but this has changed and if Mantic still would make GW knock offs, they would need to follow AoS and not chase a dead game that no one ever played anyway
(as people still claim Warhammer was killed because no one played it and it did sold less than a single 40k unit box, so it would be pretty stupid to make a knock off, of something no one bought in the first place)
kodos wrote: but true, the same argument Warlord Games Landsknechts are a Warhammer knock off
released were Warhammer was still out, same model and base size, and the theme is similar to the Empire Faction
Perry Miniatures 1450-1500 model line is a GW Knock off too
same size, same bases, same theme as the Empire
No one says that the initial plastic release from Mantic was not made with Warhammer in mind, of course as those were made before Mantic had their own game
but this has changed and if Mantic still would make GW knock offs, they would need to follow AoS and not chase a dead game that no one ever played anyway
(as people still claim Warhammer was killed because no one played it and it did sold less than a single 40k unit box, so it would be pretty stupid to make a knock off, of something no one bought in the first place)
Perry Miniatures and Warlord's stuff is mainly historical, yes they could be used for the Human factions in WFB, but I strongly doubt that was the aim when they were made. Where as with Mantic it is obvious that they made their models to be a cheaper version of what models GW offered. Given that the game system came out a good while after as well, highlights this.
What killed off WFB was the ridiculous Hordes of 40+ models, units sold as 10 models at a very high cost, and the absurdity of the spells. It turned what was a strategic game into a travesty.
If I recall correctly, Hordes in WFB pre-dates Hordes in KoW. If I'm correct, that is another Mantic aping GW.
hard to tell for the Hordes, those were already in the first version of the rules from the 2009/2010 beta, wich are 6 months older than the 8th Edition rules that introduced Hordes as a dedicated thing to Warhammer
but Warhammer had larger units before that, just no special rules for them
Perry Miniatures and Warlord's stuff is mainly historical, yes they could be used for the Human factions in WFB, but I strongly doubt that was the aim when they were made. Where as with Mantic it is obvious that they made their models to be a cheaper version of what models GW offered. Given that the game system came out a good while after as well, highlights this.
no one is saying that they did not started that way, and even Ronny said in an interview that this was the case, but he also said that doing it was the biggest mistake they made as a company during the first years
claiming that it is still the case, is the dispute here
and yes, Perry and Warlord do historical stuff, but with no dedicated game in need of the specific units, and the time of release being were Warhammer was still around, the claim that they did it only to sell plastics to Warhammer players is as valid as claiming the current EoD release is there to sell plastic as an alternative to Tomb Kings
(a faction that neither exists in models nor in rules, so what big market is there outside of the Kings of War players, that demands a Tomb Kings copy that is too far off from the original to get the nostalgic ex-Warhammer people attracted)
Great stuff in these later previews, happy to see Mantic's own Idol and Monolith, and great to see more chariots on the market at all. Pretty sparse options out there for chariots and printing them is a pain on standard, smaller printers.
Did I already say that I respect how Mantic's new EOD put some distance between them and Games Workshop's old TK? If not I'm content to repeat that Not a lot of other opinions on the infantry and cav, except that I find the angery skulls pretty hilarious (in a fun nostalgic way) and genuinely like the horses, with the exception of that horrific filled-in mouth
I've posted a transparency update on my business operations.
Just letting everyone know here: Mantic is currently delaying the shipment of some orders due to difficulty casting resin models during the heat wave. EoD releases were mentioned as a specific impacted set of codes. My stock order was affected, and I'm sure others have been too.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: by UK standards we are indeed melting (and very few businesses other than big retail stores will have any air conditioning)
we even had an airport close today when the runway melted
Why is air conditioning / central heat not a widespread thing? Is it because y'all are on mainly gas infrastructure?
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: by UK standards we are indeed melting (and very few businesses other than big retail stores will have any air conditioning)
we even had an airport close today when the runway melted
Why is air conditioning / central heat not a widespread thing? Is it because y'all are on mainly gas infrastructure?
Until recently, as I understand it, it was a rarity for it to ever get this hot (in the UK, at least), so air conditioning wasn't A Thing They Needed To Worry About.
Rihgu has it, we never usually get hot enough for it to matter,
and even if we did it was only for the odd few days which could be ignored (and compared to the summer of 1976 which is the last time we had a real sustained heat wave)
it's so out of the ordinary we don't even have maximum work temperatures for office workers (but we do have minimum ones, it spends plenty of time being cold over here)
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: by UK standards we are indeed melting (and very few businesses other than big retail stores will have any air conditioning)
we even had an airport close today when the runway melted
Is the runway made of ice-cream?
Here in Australia most of our country attains the UK current temps for at least a few weeks to a few months a year.
Amazingly our roads do not melt, our rail lines do not warp.
I'm out running 10km training runs in 36 degree Celsius as normal in summertime.
The British come to Australia (and other hotter countries) for holidays in hot weather....
Having lived in the UK I do know your pain though of being inside a house designed to trap heat, when it is hot.
At university we would get a kids bathing pool, fill it and drink beer and watch sport on the TV, all in the shade of a tree... fun times.
Ok...? Things designed for a certain temperature range generally function better than equivalents designed for a different temperature range, people used to living in a certain temperature range will have less trouble than people with no experience in that temperature range. I'm sure if Mantic's factory were built in Australia they'd have made sure it could function perfectly fine in this heat, but why would they have spent extra time and money to deal with weather conditions that (from their perspective at the time) would never pose a concern?
Here in Australia most of our country attains the UK current temps for at least a few weeks to a few months a year.
Amazingly our roads do not melt, our rail lines do not warp.
Our infrastructure has both ends of the spectrum to cope with - parts of the UK can get below -20C (-4f) in winter and today we forecast to break all time records and exceed 40C (104f) in places.
At either end of the range things begin to grind to a halt. Other countries cope with this sort of temperature range better but we would rather complain about the weather and drink tea.
it is the same in Austria, no one had air condition years ago when 30°C was the maximum and this only for ~5 days a year
at the same time -20°C for 1/4 of the yeas is a thing, no one even thinks of "cooling"
(and still is, I have machinery in the lab that does not work properly with constant 30° in the room and I don't have air condition yet because machines not working during holiday season is not considered necessary and installing one in an old building is not cheap either)
and now we run into energy problems as well because some people like >25° in winter and <20° in summer
1 x resin orc Bloodrunner
1 x resin Basilean Gur Panther
1 x Armada Rulebook and Token Set
1 x exclusive paper play mat with rules reference (70cm x 70cm)
1 x Armada dice set
£30 cost (£58 cost separately excluding the paper mat)
Always had an interest in a ship game, especially after Dreadfleet, but never taken the plunge. For £30 thought it worth a punt to see how it plays, even if I only end up painting & building the ships.
lord_blackfang wrote: I've heard good things about Oak&Iron, and Dystopian Wars is pretty ace.
Black Seas is bad and 1 vs 1 is gonna be utter misery.
Armada's built on Black Seas, and we had fun with our campaign. I also have BS, but never played it - the rules aren't that different. I'd recommend giving it a try. The Bloodrunner is a v cool ship.
Oak & Iron is also fun. I played a bunch of DW years ago, it was mostly a dice fest with fairly limited tactical options (get to the right range band, unload your guns, hope you do it first), but Spartan Games had pretty bad rules all around, so maybe the new set is better?
.
) (3 for $100 Varanguard was a tough pill as well, but at least they were huge?) (on the flipside, I was stunned when the plastic Blood Knights debuted recently at 5 for $60!)
