PMC + Mantic models as a condition to win best painted is totally fine
for everything else it is "preferred" and not "absolute minimum" for a reason yet most people just buy the boxes and still think because the 20 model box is sold as regiment, they must use all 20 for a regiment instead of using the 40 models in an army box to make 3 regiments and some heroes
The Vault still delivering whacky levels of value Happy to have all of that, including the Dreadball stuff and models like the Fiends that I never wanted to build but am down to print in one piece. EOD ships are real neat as well, especially as my interest in Armada is ticking up (I do own a full cast resin Orc fleet NIB)
Funny aside about the Soulflayers, Mantic is releasing them the same month as Fleshcraft Studio more or less cloned them for a not-Dark Elf release:
I just got the Nightstalker Ambush box from McDougall Designs. I haven't assembled a single figure yet, so I can't comment on how well they fit together. But the sprues look fantastic. I can unironically say that they look absolutely #$$(#*& fantastic.
I've bought a number of Mantic products over the years, and none of them have blown me away like this set. This kit is Mantic as it should be, hard plastic done on a qualitative level (crispness, lots of parts / variety, figure design, even sprue design) higher than anything I've seen from them in the past. This is the first Archon-produced kit I've seen from Mantic, and I sure hope they stick with them. No new sets made in China, please.
Did Archon do that Raven-rider kit, too? If so, I might have to look into that now.
Genuinely impressed, and the reviewer isn't wrong, we're going to see SO many ravens in a few months, if the Scorchwing spam we're weathering right now is anything to go by
Talking Banana wrote: I just got the Nightstalker Ambush box from McDougall Designs. I haven't assembled a single figure yet, so I can't comment on how well they fit together. But the sprues look fantastic. I can unironically say that they look absolutely #$$(#*& fantastic.
I've bought a number of Mantic products over the years, and none of them have blown me away like this set. This kit is Mantic as it should be, hard plastic done on a qualitative level (crispness, lots of parts / variety, figure design, even sprue design) higher than anything I've seen from them in the past. This is the first Archon-produced kit I've seen from Mantic, and I sure hope they stick with them. No new sets made in China, please.
Did Archon do that Raven-rider kit, too? If so, I might have to look into that now.
Talking Banana wrote: I just got the Nightstalker Ambush box from McDougall Designs. I haven't assembled a single figure yet, so I can't comment on how well they fit together. But the sprues look fantastic. I can unironically say that they look absolutely #$$(#*& fantastic.
I've bought a number of Mantic products over the years, and none of them have blown me away like this set. This kit is Mantic as it should be, hard plastic done on a qualitative level (crispness, lots of parts / variety, figure design, even sprue design) higher than anything I've seen from them in the past. This is the first Archon-produced kit I've seen from Mantic, and I sure hope they stick with them. No new sets made in China, please.
Did Archon do that Raven-rider kit, too? If so, I might have to look into that now.
Very exciting stuff.
Yes, I believe archon did the raven riders. everything new in plastic since the ogres.
The Drake being the same as in Armada, so maybe we get Gargoyles too
For the army itself I think it will depend on the core troops, if the unarmord Elves are that good as the artwork this will be an awesome army no matter if certain monsters/heroes are not
Nice, looks like a new twilight kin vs abyssal dwarfs starter set from the artwork too, hopefully some new abyssal dwarf plastics too, either infernal golems or halfbreeds would be brilliant.
scarletsquig wrote: Nice, looks like a new twilight kin vs abyssal dwarfs starter set from the artwork too, hopefully some new abyssal dwarf plastics too, either infernal golems or halfbreeds would be brilliant.
I'll bet a sprue (1) order the AD get plastic halfbreeds.
I've been trying to remember what in the AD range doesn't have a model or is old and busted, and bingo, halfbreeds for the later
Artillery, lesser obsidian golems and slave chariot would need some proper attention too.
As for the new "not dark elves", I'm not a big fan of their new look. Maybe it's the paintjob, I didn't see at first the hand holding sword of the Mikael miniature and it kinda makes it a bit blurry / messy as a whole.
We'll see for the plastic regiment kit, but I notice that female elves like to wear their armor directly on their skin. Certainly because it's a nightmare to do that in reality.
I know hollow robes are the trend in 3D printing files because it "looks more realistic" and "show details", but god do I hate them for painting with a brush. I miss old school dark elf / high elf sculpts for that reason. Yeah, it was static, but at least it was easy to paint.
These impalers look like a real pain in the ass between "organic dresses" being in the way of "metal armors".
Looks like Goblin Gaming have the Twilight Kin in their pre-orders; sadly no pictures, with a total of 12 items including the usual Ambush Strater, Army & Mega Army. There is also a 2-player box with Abyssal Dwarfs and Twilight kin called The Raging Void.
1 Twilight Kin Army pack contains:
1 Twilight Kin A5 12pg mini-magazine
4x corsair frame
2x impaler frame
2x voidtouched frame
1x resin void captain
4 hard plastic kits right off the bat, that's how to properly launch an army, looking forward to it and hopefully there's a surprise new kit for the abyssal dwarves too!
Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but does anyone know when the retail release for Dungeon Saga Origins is planned for? Looking at retailers it is all over the place, I've seen as soon as a few weeks time, through to March 24 via a different retailer.
Pacific wrote: Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but does anyone know when the retail release for Dungeon Saga Origins is planned for? Looking at retailers it is all over the place, I've seen as soon as a few weeks time, through to March 24 via a different retailer.
. KS delivery (including to retailers that bought copies of the KS version) is December this year. Retail launch is next year (date not announced).
Of course, when KS is involved, official date of release even by the project creators doesn't mean much because it's all about projections.
And yeah, there will be retailers that will sell way before it because they'll simply sell their own copies. Or even before other backers get their own for cheaper than what they pledged for.
Sarouan wrote: I'm not impressed by the others, looks messy.
Most of these suffer from the same "design choice" as Plague, the entire surface is just overloaded with incoherent texture. Is it flesh? Is it bone? Is it armour? Nobody knows. Did the sculptor have a plan or did he just go over them with the digital equivalent of a texture roller? An eternal mystery.
KidCthulhu wrote:Interesting; the corsairs have Chinese hook swords and long gaff hooks...
IIRC; part of the lore is that these elves appear out of the void and grab people, so presumably the idea is that the hooks are to capture victims.
ced1106 wrote:Looks like Archon sprues. Good plastic.
Archon has done the last few Mantic releases, my understanding is that they will be Mantic's manufacturer going forward.
Sarouan wrote:Design of miniatures on these corsair sprues makes me think the horrible thin proportions of Mantic elves are here to stay.
I'm not impressed by the others, looks messy.
Always looking for something negative to say about Mantic...
One could just as easily say that Mantic has finally gotten the inhuman proportions of their elves right.
Or point out that Mantic have improved on some of the first minis they produced over a decade ago.
lord_blackfang wrote:Is it flesh? Is it bone? Is it armour? Nobody knows.
Considering that the theme is pseudo-Lovecraftian mutations due to exposure to "The Void", that's probably what design is supposed to be.
Always looking for something negative to say about Mantic...
One could just as easily say that Mantic has finally gotten the inhuman proportions of their elves right.
Or point out that Mantic have improved on some of the first minis they produced over a decade ago.
.
I'm talking about their design. Blackfang isn't impressed too, so it's not just a question of so called "something negative to say about Mantic".
But good for you if you like that. I don't think it's really an improvement here - quality of plastic sprue doesn't do everything by itself, design does still matter. I'm certainly not buying those, and I suspect I won't be alone here.
And I am happy that those are not just humans with pointy ears
They also have the bow leg syndrom, apparently.
I know there are fans for the design of their first elves, and there are also people who definitely won't touch them even if you pay them. Not sure MG will gain much more of fans with that same weird incoherent design, especially with their price hikes. First elves were awful, but they were cheap. I doubt this will be the case for these new sprues.
I know there are fans for the design of their first elves, and there are also people who definitely won't touch them even if you pay them. Not sure MG will gain much more of fans with that same weird incoherent design, especially with their price hikes. First elves were awful, but they were cheap. I doubt this will be the case for these new sprues.
So now you're complaining about a guess?
Judging by other plastic kits* it'll likely be US$37.50 for 20 infantry, US$37.50 for 6 Impalers and £30 for two void skiffs.
Which is £5 more than a box of infantry from Northstar and two thirds 20 infantry from GW.
Not particularly cheap, but not expensive either.
*using prices half elf beserkers for infantry, nightstalker butchers for large infantry and frostclaws for larger models.
Whether one likes them or not, I would notsay Mantic elves are "incoherent".
Inhumanly slender elves is a reasonable design choice. I would argue that the difference is that Mantic has become capable of pulling it off.
I know there are fans for the design of their first elves, and there are also people who definitely won't touch them even if you pay them. Not sure MG will gain much more of fans with that same weird incoherent design, especially with their price hikes. First elves were awful, but they were cheap. I doubt this will be the case for these new sprues.
So now you're complaining about a guess?
Judging by other plastic kits* it'll likely be US$37.50 for 20 infantry, US$37.50 for 6 Impalers and £30 for two void skiffs.
Which is £5 more than a box of infantry from Northstar and two thirds 20 infantry from GW.
Not particularly cheap, but not expensive either.
*using prices half elf beserkers for infantry, nightstalker butchers for large infantry and frostclaws for larger models.
Whether one likes them or not, I would notsay Mantic elves are "incoherent".
Inhumanly slender elves is a reasonable design choice. I would argue that the difference is that Mantic has become capable of pulling it off.
Impalers are retail $40 for 6
Corsairs and void touched are $40 for 20
Skiffs are $50 retail for 3.
Ambush is $45 retail, with 20 corsairs and 3 impalers.
The Army and mega Army set are $110 and $165 respectively.
Mikael (looks like an impaler character on a large horse creature) is $50, a character pack is $50, and the gordrak dragon is $65.
Of course, you can always get these cheaper from independent retailers that offer discounts.
Mikael (looks like an impaler character on a large horse creature) is $50, a character pack is $50, and the gordrak dragon is $65.
Of course, you can always get these cheaper from independent retailers that offer discounts.
Thanks for confirming!
Those look like resin prices for the characters, which likely means stls eventually.
They certainly line up with characters, large items, and other resin items that mantic produces. Considering these are a brand new Army and they obviously want to make sales of the physical product that they have manufactured, I would highly doubt that they would release STL on the vault anytime soon. I have no knowledge if that's even in the cards though so don't quote me on that.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Have they released any photos of assembled TWK minis yet?
edit - The Studio paint scheme isn't the greatest. I think we lose a lot of detail on the Void Touched and Impaler's, for example. A more subtle approach at picking out textures would be very rewarding.
Sorely tempted to pick up Ragin Void. It must be easier getting mates to try it out of NO ONE is the good guy, right?!
Pretty good overall, I like the dark souls vibes from the large infantry, the corsairs and void skiffs have a great raider elf theme going on.
I think I'd struggle to paint some of it, particularly the voidtouched where there's a lot of different textures blending into each other and it's difficult to figure out where one area ends and the other begins. Would probably just throw purple or green contrast over the whole thing and call them creatures of shadow, it's a lot easier to roll with a spectral look when the army allows.
Gordrake is my favourite mini from the release, just looks suitably unsettling as a gribbly creature.
I'll be getting some with Dungeon Saga, will see how I get on with painting those before deciding on a full army.
I think I'd struggle to paint some of it, particularly the voidtouched where there's a lot of different textures blending into each other and it's difficult to figure out where one area ends and the other begins.
My interpretation of this is that creatures such as these, are so twisted by their time in the War - er, VOID, that there isn't much delineation between flesh, armour, whatever. It's just a gross body/cosmic horror Lovecraftian vibe. Hah, AoS threatened us with Cthulu Elves (oh deepkin, what could have been!), and Mantic delivered!
I'm also a DSO backer but I'm not sure I can wait. Maybe just an Ambush set, a little taster.
That is unfortunate, we're now at a point where, for the first time I think, Mantic's hard plastics at £27.50 for 20 are exceeding the price of the cheapest GW kit (20 Night Runners for £25, an odd outlier which has, over the years, made it really easy to start playing Mordheim). With hyperinflation now standard in the UK (food doubled, energy tripled, rents & mortgages hiked by 50% over the past two years) an extra £2.50 on the boxes is probably unavoidable if Mantic wants to keep the lights on.
It is just that one outlier GW kit of course, the direct equivalent for 20 GW dark elf minis is £50.
Newer minis (lumineth for example) are £75 for 20 basic elves so Mantic is still highly competitive.
Ah yes. Army/Mega Army sets look like they are £5 more expensive, Ambush and starter sets look the same.
Units at full retail price are £27.50 (£35 for skiffs) which still doesn't seem too outrageous when you look at 10 chainrasps for the same price heh heh
Tabletop_Magpie wrote: edit - The Studio paint scheme isn't the greatest. I think we lose a lot of detail on the Void Touched and Impaler's, for example. A more subtle approach at picking out textures would be very rewarding.
Funny you say this, I noted the decidedly tabletop paint job as well ... and was pretty ok with it. It does make me look forward to other painters really polishing the army (and I know a number of VERY good painters who played TK using legacy Dark Elves armies), but as marketing material I'm cool with it since the other extreme is the overworked studio jobs that, for example, PP has been using for its new Warmachine releases. I find it easier to imagine how I'd paint a thing if I can see the sculpt itself, not a mass of clashing NMM layers
Anyway! Rad, full release is rad and full. I'd like to see the alternate builds on the infantry - basically I want to know if there's an Elf shooting option - but otherwise it's great to finally see everything available. Onto the rules!!
Tabletop_Magpie wrote: edit - The Studio paint scheme isn't the greatest. I think we lose a lot of detail on the Void Touched and Impaler's, for example. A more subtle approach at picking out textures would be very rewarding.
Funny you say this, I noted the decidedly tabletop paint job as well ... and was pretty ok with it. It does make me look forward to other painters really polishing the army (and I know a number of VERY good painters who played TK using legacy Dark Elves armies), but as marketing material I'm cool with it since the other extreme is the overworked studio jobs that, for example, PP has been using for its new Warmachine releases. I find it easier to imagine how I'd paint a thing if I can see the sculpt itself, not a mass of clashing NMM layers
Anyway! Rad, full release is rad and full. I'd like to see the alternate builds on the infantry - basically I want to know if there's an Elf shooting option - but otherwise it's great to finally see everything available. Onto the rules!!
I don't entirely disagree; it's somewhat refreshing to see a studio market using a paint standard that's more attainable to a wider range of people. That said, it does make it bloody hard to see the actual models in places. It definitely works for some of those units more than others; the Impalers are particularly egregious to my mind. They look awfully 'cheap' and poorly detailed which is probably 90% the paintjob and it's viability for photography.
Having said that, I see potential in some of these. If only the paintjobs would give a better idea of what they actually look like...
They look like nightmares mixed with Mantic elves (meaning impossibly thin to be an actual living elf). Not worth the price to me, but I'm sure some will be fan enough to build an army of these.
TBH, the paintjob is fine. And given average quality (at best) of Mantic miniatures, it's a waste to go any further than that IMHO.
I like the corsairs more from seeing the concept art than I did from Mantic's assembled unit shot...I am probably gonna at least get a box of the Corsairs... but still debating on the ships... and don't really like any of the other stuff.
That design diary video is infuriating. Rant in spoilers if you want to skip it
Spoiler:
We could have had awesome badass leather-clad dark elf guys and gals in hard plastic, but they "couldn't make mixed parts work"? WTF?! They're ELVES! And we don't get female heavily armored void-mutated Impalers because they can't make to mixed parts work for non heavily-armored mixed part units? Mixing male/female parts is the point of these kits! GW has been doing it since 1998. Nobody builds their Drukhari Wyches or their Glade Guard or Eldar Guardians or and says "oh wait, I can't use that arm with the female torso, it's too masculine!" They're ELVES! Who cares if the men aren't hypermasculine roided-out beefcakes, They're ELVES!
They took that AMAZING concept art from 0:24, made some solid changes to the digital sculpts so they were more than simply human+ears. Cool. But then they decided to change the entire faction backstory to normal elves are female-only because elves, of all the races ELVES, can't share arms/legs/heads?! /facepalm.
We knew the faction would use Nightstalker kits to boost the unit types. So any new kits would be the spear/bow/assassin/armored elves right? Right? Nope. 4 new plastic "elf" kits and only 1 of them is actually elves, and they're female-only models. Okay, technically 2 of the kits are elves, but the 2nd kit is essentially just the same female elves on sky-boats. Then we get new Chaos Warrios Impalers, which aren't even a full unit but 3 suddenly-Ogre sized models when the DS:Origins models were normal. And instead of a dark elf bow/crossbow/spear unit, armored or otherwise, we just get Chaos Spawn Void-touched.
This is the same thing that ruined Asterians for me. If I play a Space-elf faction, it's because I want space elf models, not robots with a single elf leading them. If I play a dark elf faction, it's because i want dark elf models, not nightmare spawn and chaos mutations.
I had been really looking forward to this release after seeing the Dungeon Saga sculpts, but Twilight kin looks nothing like an elf army. Instead they're just budget-brand Chaos with a couple not-Wych units allied in. You almost get more actual dark elf models in the Mirrors of Malice expansion than you do in the Mega-Army, you certainly get more types of dark elf models
Kalamadea wrote: That design diary video is infuriating. Rant in spoilers if you want to skip it
in Kings of War, Elves are not androgynous, so they would need 2 different frames or use more armour/clothes
and yes, this is Kings of War and not 40k, just because Elves in 40k are that way does not mean any other Elves out there must also be that way
and TK are not a GW Elves army, same as Asterian are not Eldar, those are Twilight Kin and Asterians, not GW Elves (honestly if you want cheap GW Elves, buy a 3D printer, plenty of them out there)
but it is interesting, some are raging that Mantic is way too close to GW and does not make their own thing and just has cheap copies, the others are raging because Mantic does not make just cheap copies of GW models
Kalamadea wrote: That design diary video is infuriating. Rant in spoilers if you want to skip it
in Kings of War, Elves are not androgynous, so they would need 2 different frames or use more armour/clothes
and yes, this is Kings of War and not 40k, just because Elves in 40k are that way does not mean any other Elves out there must also be that way
and TK are not a GW Elves army, same as Asterian are not Eldar, those are Twilight Kin and Asterians, not GW Elves (honestly if you want cheap GW Elves, buy a 3D printer, plenty of them out there)
but it is interesting, some are raging that Mantic is way too close to GW and does not make their own thing and just has cheap copies, the others are raging because Mantic does not make just cheap copies of GW models
If my pre-order numbers are anything to go by, most people want GW-similar OR things that are easily usable in other game systems.
Mantic has gone unique with the Twilight kin release, and I applaud them for that. I just wish that they would start selling a little better.
cheap 40k is what sells for obvious reasons (specially in the US)
yet, Mantic is not on the level to compete with ~1000 patreons of STL sellers that are doing GW like models for cheap (and the only reason they exist is that people want the GW stuff for cheap), as Mantic cannot make direct copies like people can with STLs and slightly different models won't sell.
But there are those who want something different, even if it is a niche
Though I am also getting at least one box of Corsairs to make some SciFi Elves, mainly because they look much more like the original metal Hagashin and are cheaper and easier to build than the resin Kalyshi
If someone wants cheap models to make a crew for the Dark Eldar transports, or general a cheaper Dark Eldar army (though I personally won't understand why anyone wants to go for them in 10th), these are still fine
kodos wrote: in Kings of War, Elves are not androgynous, so they would need 2 different frames or use more armour/clothes
The Northern Alliance Ice-Kin/Berserker kit managed mixed-sexes same-arms/heads just fine. It only didn't work here because Mantic went hyper sexualized BDSM for the dark elves, which isn't exactly original. And if they really needed 2 frames for twilight Kin, then they had 4 new kits to mix across. I'm not upset that we got a sexy elf female kit, I'm upset that we ONLY got a sexy elf female kit. Which, ironically, just makes it a budget Daughters of Khain Wych Aelf kit or conversion fodder for Drukhari, as you said
Dungeon Saga already showed what was supposed to be Mantic's new take on dark elves, so THATS what I expected from Twilight Kin sets. And it was a GOOD take on dark elves: relatively regular elves with nightmare/Void armor. But instead of turning Mirrors of Malice into an army we got 1 single kit that represents Corsairs, Fleetwardens and Voidwranglers, a second kit that is just those same models on fly-boats. A third kit that turned the normal sized armored infantry (the badass male elf unit) into giant 40mm based monstrosities, and finally a generic chaos mutation melee/caster unit specifically instead of the bow/glaive elf models shown in Mirrors of Malice. 4 elf kits, but really only 1 elf kit.
The Mantic video guy even points out that the original concept art was exactly what dark elf fans wanted/expected, and last video he pointed out that they nailed it the first time with Impalers in DS Origins. Then they specifically and deliberately moved away from that concept art, and specifically did it because they didn't want to make a dual-sex kit work. They then reworked the entire faction lore to justify a mono-sex kit, to the point that they've now codified into lore that we will NEVER get a cool sexy male elf kit to augment the cool sexy female elf kit because male elves can only ever be ugly mutated monsters or giant mutated armored monsters. No badass male elf general, no sexy male elf general. No badass male elf melee unit, no sexy male elf melee unit. No badass male elf ranged unit, no sexy male elf ranged unit. Nothing ever. And they did it on purpose, because of the mixed kit issue they arbitrarily created themselves to force the female unit to be sexy female unit.
I just wanted a nice mix of evil elves, both sexy and badass ones.
If my pre-order numbers are anything to go by, most people want GW-similar OR things that are easily usable in other game systems.
Mantic has gone unique with the Twilight kin release, and I applaud them for that. I just wish that they would start selling a little better.
That's my issue, Twilight Kin is too niche and I absolutely want stuff that will work in other systems as well as they do in KoW. I feel like I should have been Mantic's target audience for these: veteran elf units using nightmare-creature slave/fodder units as chaff, backed up by the equivelant of Stormcast Eternal Super-Elves. It's such a good concept, but then we got...these...
Alas, Mantic pulled a Mantic and I'll be buying one box of Corsairs for conversion fodder instead of a new army
Ya I'm going to have to join the disappointment train on this one, Ive been looking forward to getting some alternate fantasy dark elves options from the upcoming twilight kin for awhile and these are really not the aesthetic I was looking for.
Dungeon Saga already showed what was supposed to be Mantic's new take on dark elves, so THATS what I expected from Twilight Kin sets. And it was a GOOD take on dark elves: relatively regular elves with nightmare/Void armor. But instead of turning Mirrors of Malice into an army we got 1 single kit that represents Corsairs, Fleetwardens and Voidwranglers, a second kit that is just those same models on fly-boats. A third kit that turned the normal sized armored infantry (the badass male elf unit) into giant 40mm based monstrosities, and finally a generic chaos mutation melee/caster unit specifically instead of the bow/glaive elf models shown in Mirrors of Malice. 4 elf kits, but really only 1 elf kit.
I was also hoping for that.
At the very least I was hoping that the rest of the TK would be dressed as far toward sensible as the Dungeon Saga minis.
The void touched is a bit of a wasted opportunity IMO, I would have liked a second sprue of elves too. Even if they all had tentacles.
I don't see what the void touched kit offers that an existing nighstalker sprue couldn't have done.
Why not use reapers for gribbly monster infantry and make elves with hoods and spears or bows like in the Dungeon Saga minis?
There might well be elf kits of that sort in the works for elves though, which would make extra elves here a similar waste.
The impalers as large infantry are cool though. The void skiffs are a cool idea.
The heroes look cool enough that I might get them just to have and paint.
In any case; what I personally would prefer and what's best for everyone is not necessarily the same thing.
Mantic have their reasons and probably know something about this that I don't.
There is no pleasing everyone and plenty of people seem to be very excited by this release.
So the female kink elves are petite and the male kink elves hulk two or three heads taller than them? There’s a specter of some real unfortunate subtext hanging over this faction now that I really want to avoid thinking about.
I was just hoping for more of the DS style dark elves so I could Sci Fi them up as something like Wraith, Necromongers, or (Darkish) Eldar. I’ll need to see some pictures of these minis out in the wild because the Mantic photos are unflattering.
Thing is, people working at Mantic Games can have good ideas, but there's always something ruining it somehow in the process. Look at the artwork and the renders of these corsairs, they look indeed awesome...but artwork and renders aren't miniatures. Look at the final result with the plastic models, and you can only notice the plain difference. They look impossibly thin because at this scale (closer to 28mm), it's even more blatant. As a 3D sculptor myself, I know very well than when you do something that look "thin fine" on the renders, it's actually NOT representative on what would a 3D printed miniature look like.
Be it lack of quality control of final product, miscommunication between sculptors and artwork designers, something somewhere is always not working right at Mantic Games. They can't help but look like a cheap GW because of that reason.
As for what people want...it's what happens when you chase after GW all your life as a company, building your community with obviously former GW lovers who are still attached to their universes / game styles, and who were looking for cheaper alternatives. It's not a surprise not many are running to pre-order weird nightmare elves, especially with a price hike while there are very much cheaper alternatives or more awesomely good looking miniatures from other sources. It's actually only logical. I'm also not surprised by people thinking first of "Mantic dark elves" when they saw "Twilight Kin", and that when instead they got nightmares mixed with (a pinch of) elves they got disappointed. Well of course they are. Why would you pre-order that ? You'd rather wait and see instead of buying hundred of miniatures you're not sure of liking it yourself, and definitely won't be reselling later because no one wants it.
You can call me a hater all you like, but it won't change the number of pre-orders / sales. That's what counts, not "feelings" or "lots of people say they like them". If people don't buy, it's just a failure in the end.
As for what people want...it's what happens when you chase after GW all your life as a company, building your community with obviously former GW lovers who are still attached to their universes / game styles, and who were looking for cheaper alternatives.
That's not what Mantic is doing though.
If anything, they've been working to set themselves apart and do something different.
The KoW community may have many former GW players, but most of them are not terribly fond of GW anymore.
It's also been nearly a decade, so plenty of KoW players who never player WHFB.
The people you are talking about are probably going to go back to GW when WtOW drops, so not a great target market for Mantic.
I'm also not surprised by people thinking first of "Mantic dark elves" when they saw "Twilight Kin", and that when instead they got nightmares mixed with (a pinch of) elves they got disappointed.
The does not sound like "chasing after GW".
You can call me a hater all you like, but it won't change the number of pre-orders / sales. That's what counts, not "feelings" or "lots of people say they like them". If people don't buy, it's just a failure in the end.
I can just as easily say the converse to you...
Do you have sales numbers for a product that just released for pre-order?
That's not what Mantic is doing though.
If anything, they've been working to set themselves apart and do something different.
The KoW community may have many former GW players, but most of them are not terribly fond of GW anymore.
It's also been nearly a decade, so plenty of KoW players who never player WHFB.
The people you are talking about are probably going to go back to GW when WtOW drops, so not a great target market for Mantic.
Yes, they're trying to correct that course in the recent years, because they understand that's just a dead end. But they still can't ignore it because their community doesn't have enough "newblood" who doesn't have that past history with them, it's still populated with lots of previous GW lovers. That's why I said I'm not surprised by the end result here.
The does not sound like "chasing after GW".
Yes, but remember ; the Twilight Kin has always been the "dark elf equivalent" of Mantic Games. There were past representations of how Mantic Games saw them. This here ? It's different, and that's the issue with their community remembering what they did before. They wanted dark elves, not "nightmares with a pinch of elves" (TBH, they make me remember the Githyankis from D&D settings).
Give your community what they don't want, and there will not be a great response in return.
It's just a matter of time, obviously. If Mantic Games keeps being coherent on that matter and doesn't decide to do something else instead in the middle...sadly, past history of what they did isn't going in their favor. I don't blame MG customers being careful, honestly.
But then I guess MG can always make a new hyping kickstarter to gather a lot of money in a short time for glorified pre-order.
I can just as easily say the converse to you...
Do you have sales numbers for a product that just released for pre-order?
McDougall has obviously, that's why he wrote his comment above. You may always dismiss the feedback of one retailer about numbers of pre-orders on his shop so far, sure, but do you really need that justification in the end ? If you don't want to see, there's no point in trying to force your eyes open.
Yes, they're trying to correct that course in the recent years, because they understand that's just a dead end. But they still can't ignore it because their community doesn't have enough "newblood" who doesn't have that past history with them, it's still populated with lots of previous GW lovers. That's why I said I'm not surprised by the end result here.
Were are you getting this from?
You're making sweeping statements about how Mantic operates and the KoW community that appear to be based on assumptions and outdated generalizsations.
The day after preorders is a bit early to be declaring "end results".
Waiting for the rules is a thing for sure, simply to know which combination of boxes to go with
2 player set (if you have someone to share) and Ambush are no brainer, question is what else which is also depending on what heroes you need
Army sets are save with KoW, but it is more about which combination of the 3 big sets it should be
PS: yeah TK Voidtouched and NS Reapers are sets with so many possibilities also in SciFi (Deadspace, Resident Evil, etc.)
They are universal like the Zombies and no one else has something like that in plastic
chaos0xomega wrote: Some of the previewed sculpt are incredible. If they can successfully translate them to production kits, I think Conquest will be giving TOW a serious run for its money within the next year or two.
No chance in hell. Not the same scale, not the same universe, not the same quality as well (some may be better than before, but it's still not that great overall - these last ones don't inspire me at all, TBH). Let's just accept both communities have different kinds of fans who aren't really in competition with each other. If you were talking about Kings of War, that would be more believable.
Yeah, lets agree to disagree. The scale and universe are entirely irrelevant and its pointless to even bring that up as a point of comparison. The quality on the most recent Conquest kits is better than anything we've ever seen from WHFB - given that the majority of the TOW range is supposed to be re-issues of old kits, Conquest will actually have the advantage in quality over it, at least until GW starts releasing new plastic kits in significant quantity.
And lol, Kings of War kits are awful, they are the dollar store fantasy miniatures kits in this discussion.
Dollar store fantasy miniatures kits? I find that a surprising take. The closest thing in miniature gaming that I could see ever being related to something coming out of a dollar store would be the old sales that the now non-producing Wargames factory used to do with their deep discount sales.
I distinctly remember getting bundles of 12 persians for $2 each and thinking it was the key to a large army as a cash strapped college age teenager. And those persians certainly qualified as dollar store level in terms of sculpting.
Mantic has had a distinct air of discount alternative since the original undead were released, but I've never likened them to dollar store material. It's always been clear that they've had decent sculpting that gave a damn, and mantic's concept work has always been good.
Hell let's take a look at the Twilight King that just came out for pre-order everywhere.
Even at a discount retailer, an army said is at maximum, $88 USD and includes 30 regular infantry, 6 large infantry, and a character. 37 miniatures total. 88 ÷ 37 = $2.37 each, and that is discounted.
PS: yeah TK Voidtouched and NS Reapers are sets with so many possibilities also in SciFi (Deadspace, Resident Evil, etc.)
They are universal like the Zombies and no one else has something like that in plastic
Exactly. They are worth the money even if the only thing you intend them for is conversion fodder.
Let's be honest here : I doubt the majority of people buys KoW plastic kits just for conversion material in mind. With the price hike, it's not interesting enough just for that. I totally get people waiting for rules before engaging fully in. That just tells the miniatures alone aren't really that great to incite impulse buy like some others. And that's a good thing. MG tends to rely a bit too much on their fan community blindly buying anything they make, which is why they rely on KS as well.
That you are arguing these miniatures are great for sci-fi or something else should be telling how a miss it is for a fantasy game like KoW.
Mantic does do some odd things at times when it comes to concepts but I don't really think their miniatures are "budget options" or low quality anymore.
A lot of their stuff is absolutely *derivative*, but I think that's also true of a majority of miniature ranges out there. mierce will stick to their faction theming to a comical degree (dragon faction, forest spirit faction, undead faction etc.) but tend to put out cool sculpts that people have few complaints for.
Mantics stuff for me has gotten good enough over the years that it's become a genuine aesthetic alternative which can have a lower bar for painting something nice than many of the ranges out there. Para bellum makes really cool concepts for their minis but does a very poor job with silhouettes and has the same chunk problem mantic does but worse, as another example.
The new armada stuff they've put out is a great example of this to me, good and bad. A lot of it's chunky, rather symmetrical and almost absent at times, while still having personality, being fun and easy to paint, having really good presence on the table, and being backed by generally better rules than most of the competition at a decent enough pricepoint
> Mantic has had a distinct air of discount alternative since the original undead were released, but I've never likened them to dollar store material.
I have -- but those were all the old sets. Mold lines everywhere for the soft plastic. One sprue for an entire race (eg. ghouls). Still useful when you needed a quantity of minions, though. Maybe he's referring to those sets.
While I don't have the Mantic Archon-made sprues, I do have a ton of Archon. (Their Dungeon and Lasers mini's seem to be a better fit with my interest in generic fantasy miniatures for RPG's.) Easiest plastic I've had (not that I play many wargames) to get rid of those mold lines. Details and sculpts are great, though this may be specific to Archon mini's.
EDIT: Backed their first two Terrain Crates. Soft plastic. Iffy on recommending it. Bought because I wanted more dungeon stuff.
No hurry to catch up with any improvements Mantic has made with their miniatures. Too many miniatures to paint, as it is.
EDIT: Good to hear Grunk's comments. I'll look closer when Mantic has another KS that's not a boardgame.
Sarouan wrote: Let's be honest here : I doubt the majority of people buys KoW plastic kits just for conversion material in mind. With the price hike, it's not interesting enough just for that. I totally get people waiting for rules before engaging fully in. That just tells the miniatures alone aren't really that great to incite impulse buy like some others. And that's a good thing. MG tends to rely a bit too much on their fan community blindly buying anything they make, which is why they rely on KS as well.
That you are arguing these miniatures are great for sci-fi or something else should be telling how a miss it is for a fantasy game like KoW.
I buy them for conversion fodder, and so do a Cao hole of my friends. None of us play KOW. We don’t play many GW games, either. On the Mantic FB groups there appear to be far more people interested in the game itself, so somebody out there is playing it. Ironically, I see tons of conversions using Mantic bits….on the Wargames Atlantic group.
And yeah, the prices have stopped me from buying whole boxes sometimes, but companies like McDougall Designs give me the opportunity to buy a sprue or two to play with for every plastic kit Mantic puts out. (I did buy the Ambush box for the Night Stalkers, and am now more likely to get one for the TK when I have the funds since the kit is looking more interesting the more I see of it.)
I mostly buy Mantic terrain, but I did buy a bunch of original Plague miniatures for homebrew wargaming and my 28mm webcomic. The Hornet VTOL is a great kit and got a lot of page time in my comic.
However, I am likely to buy some of their KoW stuff for my dungeon crawl (among other projects). Especially Twilight Kin sprues via McDougall.
So yeah, I am one of those people who enjoy their stuff for conversion fodder and not a "let me get Not-GW stuff cheap for GW games" people.
Ronnie has done an interview on Mantic Universe Podcast.
He confirmed that Mantic plan to continue with army releases similar to 2023 every year.
So two armies reviewed/updated, like Northern Alliance and Nightstalkers this year, and a big release like Twilight Kin.
Also confirmed that Trident Realm and Forces of the Abyss are being updated next year, but the big release remains to be revealed.
The rumours are that the big release might be dwarfs or The Herd, but I'm not sure what it's based on.
Dwarfs, Elves, Orcs and Undead to a point, (could also only be an update) and Armies without dedicated model lines, except the human ones, are only Herd.
Another Human faction would be nice, though except for Kingdoms of Man everything else would only need an "update"
Also confirmed that Trident Realm and Forces of the Abyss are being updated next year, but the big release remains to be revealed.
Well that makes me nervous, those two are from that short era in early 2nd edition when sculpts were actually pretty good.
Why?
NS/NA like update would mean replacing metal/PVC models with plastic and resin, something I would not rate "bad"
and for Trident we already saw teaser for the Riverguard coming in plastic and the Coral Giant getting a model, and one of the monster/large infantry models gets a plastic unit
Depth Horrors, Riverguard and Coral Giant would all be great. Dambusters also don't have an actual unit either, just the hero in resin.
One of the strongest rumors I've heard is Orcs and Riftforged being combined, but I always assumed that would be a 4E consolidation thing. Like moving Herd back into Nature, for example. Super awesome if Herd get Mantic models to justify their continued existence tho! We've seen several individual sculpts that could be expanded on.
Boss Salvage wrote: Depth Horrors, Riverguard and Coral Giant would all be great. Dambusters also don't have an actual unit either, just the hero in resin.
Later in the podcast Ronnie said the release would be frogs and frogs on frogs.
Also something about "frog mortars" spitting across the table.
Coral gaint sound reasonable too, presumably a resin/stl upgrade to the giant kit, like the shadow-hulk and storm giant.
Boss Salvage wrote: Depth Horrors, Riverguard and Coral Giant would all be great. Dambusters also don't have an actual unit either, just the hero in resin.
Later in the podcast Ronnie said the release would be frogs and frogs on frogs.
Also something about "frog mortars" spitting across the table.
Coral gaint sound reasonable too, presumably a resin/stl upgrade to the giant kit, like the shadow-hulk and storm giant.
Frogs would be something I would be interested in. 🐸
For those looking for Armada digital files, Mantic Games will start a Frontier campaign on 29/09/23 (basically crowdfunding, even though it seems it's just everything they already have for the starter set of Armada).
TBH, since they make pictures of a whole unit instead of individual models, it's good enough for Mantic customers. And since Mantic miniatures are best not to look in details...this is certainly the most effective depiction of their products.
Sarouan wrote: They sure are good to look at on your phone.
TBH, since they make pictures of a whole unit instead of individual models, it's good enough for Mantic customers. And since Mantic miniatures are best not to look in details...this is certainly the most effective depiction of their products.
Tabletop_Magpie wrote: Sarouan, your constant derisory comments about "Mantic Customers" is incredibly disrespectful and borderline trolling.
Sorry, it's not my intention. I meant, Mantic customers buy these miniatures more for a mass effect in their games, hence why pictures are focused on units rather than individual models. KoW is all about regimental units, it's more effective to advertise these products with these pictures.
It's the same for painting. It's the mass effect that counts for these kind of units. Sure, you can always spend a lot of time on each individual model if you want, but let's face it ; that's not what KoW Mantic miniatures are usually designed for.
phrasing it as "models designed for Rank&File gaming" rather "models for mantic customers" would fit better without sounding like going after the people buying them
I didn’t see any better pictures in the site. I couldn’t tell what I was looking at, really. And as someone who enjoys the details and designs on Mantic’s minis, I would like to.
Sarouan wrote: TBH, since they make pictures of a whole unit instead of individual models, it's good enough for Mantic customers. And since Mantic miniatures are best not to look in details...this is certainly the most effective depiction of their products.
I'm not offended.
I have a mountain of miniatures to paint, and only paint to advanced tabletop. Even then, I'll spend more time on a hero, and much less on a minion. So why paint and pay more for a mook that's just there to be removed from the table early in the game?
I've found Mantic *great* for non-descript mobs for solo miniature wargaming. I'll need five or ten or more fireball fodder for a game, and they need to be identically faceless so I can distinguish them from the elite, which I'll purchase from other companies. Much worse, each of my games are under an hour (solo plays much faster than PvP), no point painting mobs for days just for them to be wiped out in minutes. And the wallet doesn't like my paying much per mini, since I'll need a *different* batch of enemies (and terrain, that's not cheap and has to be painted, too) for my next game.
Some gamers aren't interested in painting, and don't want to pay much for a miniature. And, on the tabletop, you can't see all those details, anyway.
Spoiler:
"Five Leagues from the Borderlands" encounter. Needed ten or so cannibals for an encounter. Never encountered them again, of course -- and some didn't even hit the game board.
Less time spent painting one miniature means more time on another -- not to mention time for gaming. Thank goodness for 2D battle boards and lichen.
Corpse mini's by Tiny Furniture.
"Elven Woods" terrain by Archon.
Battle mat by Loke
Lichen from JoAnn's.
I have a mountain of miniatures to paint, and only paint to advanced tabletop. Even then, I'll spend more time on a hero, and much less on a minion. So why paint and pay more for a mook that's just there to be removed from the table early in the game?
I've found Mantic *great* for non-descript mobs for solo miniature wargaming. I'll need five or ten or more fireball fodder for a game, and they need to be identically faceless so I can distinguish them from the elite, which I'll purchase from other companies. Much worse, each of my games are under an hour (solo plays much faster than PvP), no point painting mobs for days just for them to be wiped out in minutes. And the wallet doesn't like my paying much per mini, since I'll need a *different* batch of enemies (and terrain, that's not cheap and has to be painted, too) for my next game.
Some gamers aren't interested in painting, and don't want to pay much for a miniature. And, on the tabletop, you can't see all those details, anyway.
Yes, they're really great for that. I'm sure some here won't believe me, but I count myself in here - I'm not a great painter myself and I'm much more at ease when I paint the base colors, apply a shade then a light drybrush / lighting and call it done. I especially like when the miniatures are in one piece, without one of these damn hollow clothes with places impossible to reach with a brush. Especially when you have a ton to paint for a mass battle game.
It's just that they're not really that cheap to buy as compared to the past (import taxes don't help). They're not sold like Reaper Bone miniatures for sure.
Pacific wrote: Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but does anyone know when the retail release for Dungeon Saga Origins is planned for? Looking at retailers it is all over the place, I've seen as soon as a few weeks time, through to March 24 via a different retailer.
. KS delivery (including to retailers that bought copies of the KS version) is December this year. Retail launch is next year (date not announced).
As an update on this, in case anyone else is waiting, the retailers I was watching which had a pending release of this week have pushed them all back. Forbidden Planet is not listing October, but a lot of others are listing December now (which from what Matt has said above must be the real release date for retailers that backed the KS)
That is a lovely looking miniature! I know the superb paint job probably helps but I love the proportions and style, and fact he doesn't have a 19ft-tall hat.
I don't know enough about 3rd edition balance to say it's power creep, but it's definitely feature creep and complexity creep and diminishing of WYSIWYG. Why does each unit need stat and USR upgrade options?
lord_blackfang wrote: I don't know enough about 3rd edition balance to say it's power creep, but it's definitely feature creep and complexity creep and diminishing of WYSIWYG. Why does each unit need stat and USR upgrade options?
What do you mean ? 3rd edition has always been like that. I see nothing out of the ordinary in these rules.
lord_blackfang wrote: I don't know enough about 3rd edition balance to say it's power creep, but it's definitely feature creep and complexity creep and diminishing of WYSIWYG. Why does each unit need stat and USR upgrade options?
What do you mean ? 3rd edition has always been like that. I see nothing out of the ordinary in these rules.
I just whipped out my 3.5 book and checked my main two armies plus Halflings which are a dev's pet project and even they didn't have anything like this, so I don't know what you mean.
lord_blackfang wrote: I don't know enough about 3rd edition balance to say it's power creep, but it's definitely feature creep and complexity creep and diminishing of WYSIWYG. Why does each unit need stat and USR upgrade options?
What do you mean ? 3rd edition has always been like that. I see nothing out of the ordinary in these rules.
I just whipped out my 3.5 book and checked my main two armies plus Halflings which are a dev's pet project and even they didn't have anything like this, so I don't know what you mean.
Well yeah, that's because 3rd edition is specifically about giving more options / special rules to each army. No gak halflings are different. Generic special rules weren't considered enough in comparison to 2nd, and that was a player's request as well (especially from the competitive scene).
Here with Twilight Kin, it's the natural evolution. That's why I said I don't understand what you mean when you seem to act surprised they did that.
I said I checked my book and see no trace of what you're talking about. Twilight Kin and their 2-3 upgrade options per unit are a departure from design that was stable 2.0 through 3.5. Riftforged Orcs have nothing of the sort either.
Yes and No, the faction upgrade is something to be left aside as most have those.
Than you a lot of units either have weapon options/upgrades or a veteran/command upgrade
so the Voidwalkers are the exception with having a weapon upgrade and a veteran upgrade something by now only Varangur and Northern Alliance had
for the Heroes this looks like a lot but is in line with other special heroes from the factions (eg Exemplar Hunter) and if the other units are more "vanilla" it is in line with the previous 3rd edition facctions
From my experience, the primary complaint RNF players have of KOW - and I'm mostly talking about unconverted WHFB players here - is that army building isn't complex enough. (The other complaints are no dedicated magic phase and a deep longing for herohammer ...) The uptick in army complexity has felt to me like a response to this complaint, combined with designers who are feeling more adventurous and wanting to try new things in a mature rules set.
I'm far more excited that KOW's Naughty Elves are getting cool, complex and interesting rules than what they had before, which was mostly brutal efficiency with a few really painful unique rules on legendary heroes.
They'll definitely be fun to play. I'm still not bought on the miniatures, but that's just my personnal taste. They feel like githyankis (astral plane raiders) to me.
Everytime I see "TK" I can't help but read "Tomb Kings" in my head. Will need time to adjust.
Tabletop_Magpie wrote: I've had a notification from DHL that my Dungeon Saga Origins box is on the way. I miiiight even have it by tomorrow.
.
I had a notification saying DHL were expecting a shipment - in other words, Mantic were setting up the shipping labels. Could still be a week or two from experience in them shipping it.
Tabletop_Magpie wrote: I've had a notification from DHL that my Dungeon Saga Origins box is on the way. I miiiight even have it by tomorrow.
.
I had a notification saying DHL were expecting a shipment - in other words, Mantic were setting up the shipping labels. Could still be a week or two from experience in them shipping it.
I think you're right on this mate - no updates other than "Your parcel is delayed" at 7.51am on the 23rd.
Just cracked it open to give a quick look over and it looks nice.
Basically, it's a polished version of the original (and all fitting in little 11"x11"x8" package).
I know that Ronnie was saying that it's not DS2, but it definitely looks and feels like a 1.5 version of it; I keep expecting to find out list of patch notes.
Got mine as well and I can agree on the quality of it all. Great fulfilment of promises.
(By the way the big poster thing he talks about in the video is actually a fold out dungeon-master style screen with stats on the inside)
Automatically Appended Next Post: In case anyone's interested - someone in a Facebook group asked for shots with a ruler, so I thought I'd help out by taking a few shots...
Thanks for the update and pics! I miss the old scale website from the early 2000s that had all the popular lines of the day lined up in front of a variety of rulers in a standardized fashion. I can't remember it's name/url though. And, also, thanks for spoilering all those for a much more orderly reveal when scrolling through the thread.
(By the way the big poster thing he talks about in the video is actually a fold out dungeon-master style screen with stats on the inside)
I didn't back that pledge, the 'big poster' is actually 4 very good quality card stock(!) art prints of the box cover and the Abyssal Dwarf, Twilight Kin, and Goblin expansions. Very pleased!
I need to get these framed with my Hellboy KS exclusive prints.
Think it's just hard plastics in the ambush sets, which makes sense as an introductory product.
I'm quite happy with 40 minis for £35, it's essentially the same pricing and mini count as the old horde boxes from 12 years ago, adjusted for inflation since those were £25.
The goblin set is the best since you also get two chariots in addition.
I honestly couldn't remember if the LOGs were plastic or resin But also wondered if they'd considered tossing in some resin since they do it with the megas too. Ah well.
Is it interesting that the Ambush starter set doesn't seem to provide any savings over buying the two Ambush boxes separately? I suppose you get a scenario booklet but it seems a bit odd given Mantic's record for incredibly good value starter sets.
edit - yes that looks really entitled doesn't it? That was not my intention at all!
not the first Ambush starter that does not offer something exiting.
Halfings before that were also just the regular box but here it is more about not having one at all, or one with the good stuff
So Basilea and Abyssal Dwarfs Sets just show that those need another plastic release
But because Ambush is intro mode for KoW, it kind of is important to cover as many armies as possible and they use what they have
for the 2 player Set the only difference I see are the rules and scenarios
the regular sets are already a big discount and having a box with the rules to start so you don't need to buy the big rulebook and the CoK23 to get them is a thing
I also expected it to be 70-75€ rather than 80€, but still great for someone who starts from zero
specially with the regular retailer discount
I appreciate what Sceleris said over on the KOW forum, that you can get 2 regs, 1 troop and convert a hero out of the Basilean starter (similar for the AD), which is totally legit for getting started and how we did it back in the day. Speaking of feeling entitled, I guess even I am used to being spoon fed official models for unit options
for the 2 player Set the only difference I see are the rules and scenarios
the regular sets are already a big discount and having a box with the rules to start so you don't need to buy the big rulebook and the CoK23 to get them is a thing
That's an excellent point, Kodos. The value is already there and I completely skipped over that. Chill of Twilight just moved to the top of the WANT list.
Just a heads up for any other traders in the US working with Mantic.
My Sales Rep has stated that the main Warehouse in the UK began shipping trade shipments to a third party in the US, who is then to ship out to US based clients. Without informing him. He only figured it out after I had him look up my order because I was concerned.
As a result, what previously was a 3-5 day turn around for stock orders is at 8 days and counting, presently.
Dambuster Arbalest (hard plastic toad + resin gun/gunner) The Kermit energy on that gunner's face is real and I'm here for it
Dambuster Pondwarden Sentinel (hard plastic toad + resin hero) We've yet to see if the Pondwarden on foot from LoI will enter the list as a standalone (tho he could easily be a depth horror eternal)
Dambuster Sentintel (resin) Not a new model but listed as a pre-order
Riverguard Regiment (hard plastic, two weapon options)
Tidal Swarm Regiment (resin) These are new, right? They match the water elementals very well
Coral Giant (resin)
There are new Trident Realm Megas, Ambushes and Armies that include these new plastic frogs + toads. This might be the general release of the plastic Depth Horror Eternal as well?
Anyhoo, still waiting for the TR updated rules to drop, from the little I've heard it really is mostly frog-related, less of a whole faction rebuild (like I assume Abyss is getting in the fall or whenever).
I really love these. I refuse to entertain another backlog project right now, but am still sorely tempted.
Mantic's quality legitimately keeps improving at a good clip. Ever since stuff like the Northern Alliance Crow-Cav, they've had a real run of great releases across all their game systems. Some of the new Deadzone/Firefight stuff is similarly dope.
Can only speak to Deadzone, but the Command Dice there are an awesome addition, and introduce subtle chaos, in a way that doesn't disrupt balance. Big fan, so I will hear them out.
Wow, these riverguard are worse than lizardmen skink models. Worse detail sharpness, design, posture. And how old are skinks? 20 years at least? Closer to 25?
Red frogs are alright at least.
WolleK wrote: I preserve my judgement on the implementation of command dice (for test rules, I guess), but they worked out great in many other games.
Anyone care to let us know what Command dice generally do in a Mantic ruleset?
I'm not entirely against the idea of a command mechanic, but specialty dice and game-altering-mechanics-added-after-release, are usually red flags for me.
Anyone care to let us know what Command dice generally do in a Mantic ruleset?
You roll them to get CP, which you pay to activate a handful of Stratagems; stuff like double activations or shrugging off suppression. I honestly can't really imagine what they could do in vanilla KoW. I guess boring gak like a bonus on to hit rolls, damage rolls and re-roll Break tests, but there's not much design space for tactical twists. If they went for army rewrites they could shunt upgrades like Throwing Mastiffs into it I guess.
The addition of CP to KoW looks interesting. We invited a "professional" player into our minis group, and when we played a series of games, he crushed us. The game became too deterministic, with no wiggle room for us. If you didn't bring THE list, your game was over before the models hit the table.
Adding this modest element of chance is a welcome addition to the game. KoW can be very unforgiving when the skill sets between players are very different, something I've found to be less important in their other games.
- Basilea gets new Cavalry in plastic
- CoK25 being the last one before 4th Edition
- Alessio Cavatore will work/help on 4th rules
- KoW 4th will be translated, other games come first as "test" to make sure to avoid problems from the past
Planned languages are French, German, Spanish and maybe Italien and/or Polish
- trying to have balance between changes to attract new players without upset existing players
- comment on Elves being re-worked was "ask again this time next year"
I would like to use them as proxies. They seem big enough but I want to make sure... Also, how big is that base they use?
please note I am slightly biased as I am a retailer of Mantic products. The below is based on 20+ years of hobbying experience.
Having just received these in and built a few Nagaari:
1. The tails overhang a chariot base by a good centimeter. These are sized as if they were trying to go for something that could slot as dragon ogres or similar sized large monster cav.
2. Arm joinery is less than adequate. Two of the nagaari arm sets I tried had gaps between the offhand arm and the body.
3. the Nagaari are built off of 1 body, with no choice of different torso.
4. From what customers and fellow hobbyists have said, the berserkers would fit better on 50mm bases than the native 40mm bases supplied.
McDougall Designs wrote: 4. From what customers and fellow hobbyists have said, the berserkers would fit better on 50mm bases than the native 40mm bases supplied.
McDougall Designs wrote: 4. From what customers and fellow hobbyists have said, the berserkers would fit better on 50mm bases than the native 40mm bases supplied.
*cough* Moloch replacements *cough*
I've always been a fan of conceptualizing new waves of abyssal with the different circles of the pit, and so on. or just different types/tribes/factions than one homogenous imp-esque race.
Though you are not wrong. They will work well as that, or slightly bigger.
the joints need to be flattened and/or filled with greenstuff, as the Berserker ones are slightly curved but it works
they also fit the arms from Ogres and Nightmares as well as the heads from Nightmares
people already posting conversions:
and as I have them here, just tried a 40mm base and it fits just fine (I also replaced the weapons and the head)
Nagarris also fits a 75x75mm and the Berserker weapons if someone wants an alternative Fiend model
Yes, the leg dimensions fit in a 40mmx40mm. but if all the extremities don't ranking up for units requires extra work.
Looks like as long as it was slightly elevated, the tail would line up with the empty space on the base next to it or behind it. Not ideal and you still have the possibility of interfering with other units, but in practice it should work fine.
This sort of positioning a unit so that it overhangs into available space on the unit next to it may seem convoluted, but it's long been necessary for those playing WHFB and other rank and flank units. It'd be better if it wasn't that way, but probably best to just expect/accept it.
Yes, the leg dimensions fit in a 40mmx40mm. but if all the extremities don't ranking up for units requires extra work.
Looks like as long as it was slightly elevated, the tail would line up with the empty space on the base next to it or behind it. Not ideal and you still have the possibility of interfering with other units, but in practice it should work fine.
This sort of positioning a unit so that it overhangs into available space on the unit next to it may seem convoluted, but it's long been necessary for those playing WHFB and other rank and flank units. It'd be better if it wasn't that way, but probably best to just expect/accept it.
That sounds like complacency, rather than expecting manufacturers to learn from their previous products and make better miniatures.
Yes, the leg dimensions fit in a 40mmx40mm. but if all the extremities don't ranking up for units requires extra work.
Looks like as long as it was slightly elevated, the tail would line up with the empty space on the base next to it or behind it. Not ideal and you still have the possibility of interfering with other units, but in practice it should work fine.
This sort of positioning a unit so that it overhangs into available space on the unit next to it may seem convoluted, but it's long been necessary for those playing WHFB and other rank and flank units. It'd be better if it wasn't that way, but probably best to just expect/accept it.
That sounds like complacency, rather than expecting manufacturers to learn from their previous products and make better miniatures.
You're not wrong. But realistic expectations make for less disappointment.
lord_blackfang wrote: Proxying a unit with another legal unit from the same faction kinda rude tho.
My comment was more at Mantic or commentary on the development process, that perhaps the new 'Zerkers were intended to be Molochs but a decision was made to add a new unit (and thus sell more) rather than replace an existing one (that could continue to be sold in addition). This is total conjecture based on what GW did for WHFB during 8E (i.e. when many, many players already had established armies and so factions more or less only received 1 new hero and 1 new monstrous cav unit when they were revisited). Frankly, I would love to see the current Molochs replaced with new plastic rotund demons to provide visual counterpoint to the wiry 'Zerkers. But that costs money that could go to refreshing other lines and truly dire kits (like all those ancient cavalry!)
FWIW, I think the 'counts as' issue is if an Abyssal army used 'Zerkers for both Molochs and 'Zerkers. And that point the visual continuity is broken. Using them for Molochs but not 'Zerkers at the same time is just good hobby sense and shouldn't cause confusion in an actual game.
"Pannithor is full of larger than life characters that can sometimes get a little lost on the battlefield because the regiments, war engines and monsters get all the limelight
Champions aims to change that by focusing down on the key battles between Champions (aka heroes) and their handpicked troops. It tells the story of these heroes and their rise to prominence within Pannithor. Champions still has the tactical rank and flank gameplay and awesome hard plastic minis you love from Kings of War, but it’s been designed to play faster and take up less table space."
Sounds like a new take on a KoW Skirmish game. Vanguard is on MyMiniFactory now.
It's weird because KoW already has a small points format mode for the rank and flank game, and a regular skirmish side game. I initially figured this would be an Underworlds clone, but it sounds like a second small points format mode for the main game.
Vanguard was awesome. As a Confrontation player it really scratched that itch.
Ronnie was interviewed on Jordan Sorcery a while back and he brought up Vanguard but spoke about it very much in the past tense with no indication it would have a future. I brought this up in a Facebook page and was informed from someone at Mantic that more would be incoming for the game.
Well, a couple of months ago Mantic started releasing the Vanguard warbands on their monthly Vault STL subscription, and recently followed that up with a big Vanguard 'campaign' on MyMiniFactory where you can get most of the warbands, the rules, the objectives and Terrain Crate terrain, all in a digital format. They have previously done the same for Deadzone and Armada.
It remains to be seen if this is where the smaller Mantic games go to die, or if this is a way of keeping those games around and alive until a new edition shows up.
I picked up a number of these over the years. I too have a small collection of Mantic Points… hopefully at least one new Dwarf, one new Abyssal Dwarf and one new Forgefather.
I dont see any mention of "smapl scale". Given the name and artwork and thene, this is almosr certainly a skirmish scale rank n flank warband game at 28mm
Small scale is language they used on facebook but they also said skirmish and they also said rank and flank so they've said... a lot of things while also sort of saying nothing. But if it's out in April we don't have long to wait for details. Pretty sure it's gonna be Ambush boxes with a hero character included to make each list a bit more "themey" and be Kings of War's answer to Spearhead.
I thought Spearhead was Sigmar's answer to Ambush.
I having a hard time getting hyped about this.
It's not sounding significantly different from Ambush, but isn't the skirmish game I wish they'd make either.
Probably more me than Mantic, though. I've been getting back into historical lately and barely have time for one wargame.
Kings of War already translates pretty well/easily to smaller scales, and there are a lot of sellers doing 10mm fantasy either as stls or physical prints.
Billicus wrote: Kings of War already translates pretty well/easily to smaller scales, and there are a lot of sellers doing 10mm fantasy either as stls or physical prints.
With it's aim towards large battles and lack of casualty removal, KOW already reads as a ruleset designed for 6-15mm figures. Just change the inches to cm and you're there.
I doubt Mantic would do anything so simple as it would cannibalize their 28mm sales. If they do 10mm figures it will likely be with a new ruleset.
lord_blackfang wrote:
Atlantic is doing 10mm fantasy rules this year, I expect it won't be locked just to their model line.
Not sure how they would, even if they wanted to.
Eilif wrote:
I doubt Mantic would do anything so simple as it would cannibalize their 28mm sales. If they do 10mm figures it will likely be with a new ruleset.
Not to mention that there's already mini and scale agnostic wargames rules too.
lord_blackfang wrote:
Atlantic is doing 10mm fantasy rules this year, I expect it won't be locked just to their model line.
Not sure how they would, even if they wanted to.
By which I meant "I hope they don't only make stats for the models they currently sell" - which by the time of publishing will likely be at most Orcs, Dwarfs and Skeletons
Pre-orders for this and more details are coming on Friday.
TAKE A MOMENT, AND JUST IMAGINE
What if there was a fantasy wargame that could give you:
Massive & strategic fun...in a small play area.
Rank-and-flank thrills...that play in under an hour.
Hero-led mechanics...that enhance, not overpower.
Exciting factions to explore...each in one great-value box.
Now that's exciting enough to get even an ogre's imagination going!
LEGENDS FORGED IN BATTLE
As new legends rise across Pannithor, ordinary folk have caught fleeting glimpses of strange and mighty Champions leading their trusted companies into combat...
Prepare to immerse yourself in a world of fantasy adventure with a cast of heroes and villains, all brought to life with amazing MasterCraft Resin.
This new material is easy to build, has lots of detail for painters, and is durable enough for worry-free gaming. You're going to love it!
There are podcasts with Rob and Andy being interviewed about Champions out today, I prefer to read than listen to waffle but the actual preorder starts tomorrow apparently so not long to wait for specifics
One Podcast today, the other tomorrow (Counter Charge and Mantic Universe Podcast)
What I got by now:
won't replace Ambush, fixed lists, starts with 4 faction boxes, 1 starter set with 2 boxes, 1 new box per month until the end of year (9 total)
Rules are different to Kings of War for more dynamic play (like no stuck in combat)
Character progression in campaigns (and Heroes can lose xp as well)
Background for each of the special companies
Map size is based on most common table size from Ikea and therefore 24"x42"
New resin isn't made in house but the same material used for the special event Halo models
New plastics coming with Champion get stand alone boxes (Basilea Knights)
As expected, a game no one needed or asked for, as Ambush already filled that roll. I'm a mega Mantic fanboy, but this still feels like a very rare wholesale miss.
Well Ronnie and Matt asked Rob to come in to write it so someone asked for it
So my takeaways are yes it is an actual entry level, stripped back, KoW intro system and not just KoW with a few units (Ambush) but I'm not sure where Ambush sits now. The Counter Charge lads even said that they would just play KoW over Ambush on an evening at a Tournament where as Champions would get played at the relaxed Beer N Pretzels level.
I'm going to give it a go though, for sure. Give me a 2 player starter set and a quick fun system and I'm all yours.
Yeah, Kings of War already plays pretty fast and if you want to do low model count, it's totally doable (just play Ogres). Ambush has never really appealed to me on that basis. As a *product* this makes a bit more sense to me - hero characters are cool, premade lists are good for accessibility, kings of war is there if you want to take it to the next level. It's a much better gateway than a single based skirmish game like Vanguard.
They have said separate rulebooks will be available and that's generally their style (deadzone, firefight, kings of war all have standalone rulebooks)
I would say at the same place as before, 750-1500 points Kings of War
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: As expected, a game no one needed or asked for, as Ambush already filled that roll. I'm a mega Mantic fanboy, but this still feels like a very rare wholesale miss.
I guess the point is, it is the game no one is asking for, because the target audiance are those who don't yet play a game
and currently the only other entry level Rank&File game is A Song of Ice and Fire
I would say at the same place as before, 750-1500 points Kings of War
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: As expected, a game no one needed or asked for, as Ambush already filled that roll. I'm a mega Mantic fanboy, but this still feels like a very rare wholesale miss.
I guess the point is, it is the game no one is asking for, because the target audiance are those who don't yet play a game
and currently the only other entry level Rank&File game is A Song of Ice and Fire
If you want a miniatures-and-rules combo yes, but there's a number of well-reviewed rulesets by known writers for rank-and-flank that have been released recently. Oathmark and Hobgoblin come to mind. And of course there's also Age of Fantasy Regiments. Though of the lot, I'd still prefer Kings of War.
]I would say at the same place as before, 750-1500 points Kings of War
I get that, but if you can just play KoW at those points anyway, does Ambush need to be its own product? The Ambush boxes will still retail next to KoW and Champions and I can't see smaller stores stocking three boxes of, essentially, the same units. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Ambush move to Direct Only.
Just to reiterate though, I am very much looking forward to Champions!
Tabletop_Magpie wrote: I get that, but if you can just play KoW at those points anyway, does Ambush need to be its own product? The Ambush boxes will still retail next to KoW and Champions and I can't see smaller stores stocking three boxes of, essentially, the same units. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Ambush move to Direct Only.
Just to reiterate though, I am very much looking forward to Champions!
The big problem with Ambush boxes is that they don't make a game. The example lists included (and shown off on the cover) are not working in practical as nobody who knows about the rules is going to build the 40 Goblins in a box as 2 Regiments of 20, they build 2 Regiments, a Troop and 1-2 heroes to get a 500 point list (but the box doesn't come with enough bases to do that so you need to buy something else)
also you cannot really play with 2 regiments, 4-5 units are a minimum to get the game going, which comes down to 500 points to start (which comes down to knowing about the game and how it works before you build the models)
One could consider that a trap for beginners which Mantic tried to compensate by making the example list formations for the armies (so that those who build the box as suggested can still use it in larger games)
Champions are now a very different format here trying to make it for beginners. Pre-Made Army lists that are balanced against each other, dedicated rules and not just small KoW (hopefully solving some problems 500 points Ambush had) and it might be intresting enough for current KoW players as a side game (750 points Ambush never really did that)
you get the Ambush, Army and Mega Army Boxes to start Kings of War, but to start gaming you now have Champions
Automatically Appended Next Post: 2nd Podcast (similar but different)
Looks great, small warband led by named heroes is a solid format for any small scale game.
This one will be great for demoing games or introducing players to Mantic, it's drawing a little from spearhead, a little from warmachine, but keeping full multibasing + rank and flank.
Closest games I can think of are something like Battle Havoc! or Wargods of Aegyptus as a similar size and style of game, and both of those are really great so I think Mantic might be able to take it to a larger audience and do really well.
6th WHFB edition border patrol with all the wonderful scenarios for it also qualifies as a good example, although that wasn't a custom ruleset, it did work well, I do hope there are some fun scenarios in there.
hopefully the next clash of kings will have rules for all the new champions so they can be used in full sized games as well. then the progression could easily be:
buy a champions box for your preferred faction.
then once you've gotten the hang of the basic KoW rules, you buy an ambush box for the same faction, adding on a couple larger units to expand your collection into a small KoW army for Ambush, that makes a good core for a larger KOW army.
scarletsquig wrote: Looks great, small warband led by named heroes is a solid format for any small scale game.
Having watched all their introductory videos I feel the opposite. I was expecting something else tbh.
I was wondering how can interesting decisions and options crammed in a game with only 4 moving pieces per side, so as to compensate for a very low number of interactions on the table. I was thinking, maybe some extra level of card play? Wide menus of options on each unit, like a choice of types of attack, providing an extra non- obvious decision point.
But there seems to be none of these things. Special rules on these crossbows for example provide no decision for a player whatsoever, they just need to be remembered and automatically applied, no brain-racking choices involved.
It's just I don't see much happening in the game at this scale (ie number of individual pieces on the board) with no extra layers of decsion making.
For example ASOIAF has at least a couple of units more per side (5-6) but also Tactics Cards play and the Politics Board "worker placement" mini-game. It is still a relatively simple and fast-flowing game, but design tries to pack more decision points within its limited space. I fail to see such an attempt here.
These nerve tests feel awfully swingy. Having the fate of a unit hang on a single all-or-nothing dice roll when there's only 4 of them feels like a serious kick in the player agency.
So is it "move forward roll some dice and if the opponent is terrible at rolling these Nerve tests I "win""? Pretty disappointing, old-fashioned design really, from what I have seen so far.
You have 3 Orders from the Champion that can go on 3 units or hold back for a re-roll that add a basic level on decision making (as those are all situational)
Nerf roll are less of a problem, to kill a unit it takes some time and effort and it is very tricky to lock a unit into combat
Scoring happens at the end of each round with different scenarios have different decisions to make.
So moving forward to roll some dice and if the opponent is terrible at rolling nerve you lost the game because they played the scenario.
The game is also much shorter, it is meant to be done in 30-60 minutes and not big enough to last 2 hours.
But those 30-60 minutes are engaging enough with the option given
I'm mostly just interested in whether the small tweaks to the core rules (like everyone getting an extra pivot during any type of move) will make it into Ambush
I think if you're looking for complexity, the game intended to be a gateway for the ultra casuals probably isn't gonna hit the spot. I'm just excited to collect a bunch of small warbands and play in a format I can get new people up to speed with really quickly.
There are small details that look like they could make it into 4th, yet the extra pivot is really there to help with the shorter ranges and smaller board so I don't think that specific one is ported over.
Yet you could use the Champions core rules for Ambush as well.
Should work for the smaller games despite having the regular profiles and list building.
Not complexity or crunch, but player agency and interesting decisions.
For example in economy games, if Food Chain Magnate or Brass are too complex, you don't have to switch straigth to mindless Monopoly - there are games that are simple but still offer interesting decisions inbetween the two extremes.
Champions, I am afraid, is Monopoly in this metaphore. Could have been so much more, without ever getting anywhere close to "complex" or "crunchy".
Thanks for explaining your deeply nuanced Monopoly metaphor but I think we get it. I don't agree but I don't think you're really coming into this with an open mind anyway.
I think it's a bit harsh. Champions is an almost fully featured KoW game with 4 preset units a side. As far as I know the only thing removed is Waver, and units are made more maneuverable to protect newbies from getting stuck facing away from the action, and there's a simple but decent resource management bit added in that I honestly like more than the command dice gimmick in 3.5
The tiny preset armies kills it for me, so I just hope the rules changes make it to Ambush and Ambush doesn't get scrapped as redundant. Preset armies is basically the only complaint I've ever heard about Spearhead, so hopefully Mantic isn't daft enough to lean fully into that.
Billicus wrote: Thanks for explaining your deeply nuanced Monopoly metaphor but I think we get it. I don't agree but I don't think you're really coming into this with an open mind anyway.
Oh, I was pretty interested when I first heard of it and I was wondering what layers will be added to the base wargaming stuff to make 4 units per side battles interesting and multidimensional. I watched every video. I was put off at the point of watching the Shooting video and the next one sealed the deal. I was hoping for something simple but not shallow.
* Resin quality is very good
* Mantic logo on the bottom is a nice touch
* Cardboard for the box is higher quality than the Ambush boxes
* Moving Mantic points to a flyer in the outer box is a nice touch, not sure how that’ll work for retail
* Infantry frames were bagged as usual
* Not sure that the non-base MDF piece is for
* Cards come in a small resealable bag
* Nice to see instructions!
yeah, so with enough birds you also get a troop dwarfs with spears
and each pair of wings fits in 2 different ways so you get 4 different poses from that (more if you mix the wings)
Well I hope so. Quite curious to read the rulebook, really hope it is the right game to introduce more people to Kow. Also, those models seem very nicely sculpted.
Happy to have all of that, including the Dreadball stuff and models like the Fiends that I never wanted to build but am down to print in one piece. 
)
