Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Now we need to wait for a proper photos/videos for non Mantic guys to properly see all the minis.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Now we need to wait for a proper photos/videos for non Mantic guys to properly see all the minis.

Now available and uploaded.

Don't know what you mean by "Non-Mantic" guys. I'm just a retailer and was waiting for permission to add the trade images to my listings.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

 Tabletop_Magpie wrote:
edit - The Studio paint scheme isn't the greatest. I think we lose a lot of detail on the Void Touched and Impaler's, for example. A more subtle approach at picking out textures would be very rewarding.

Funny you say this, I noted the decidedly tabletop paint job as well ... and was pretty ok with it. It does make me look forward to other painters really polishing the army (and I know a number of VERY good painters who played TK using legacy Dark Elves armies), but as marketing material I'm cool with it since the other extreme is the overworked studio jobs that, for example, PP has been using for its new Warmachine releases. I find it easier to imagine how I'd paint a thing if I can see the sculpt itself, not a mass of clashing NMM layers

Anyway! Rad, full release is rad and full. I'd like to see the alternate builds on the infantry - basically I want to know if there's an Elf shooting option - but otherwise it's great to finally see everything available. Onto the rules!!

I don't entirely disagree; it's somewhat refreshing to see a studio market using a paint standard that's more attainable to a wider range of people. That said, it does make it bloody hard to see the actual models in places. It definitely works for some of those units more than others; the Impalers are particularly egregious to my mind. They look awfully 'cheap' and poorly detailed which is probably 90% the paintjob and it's viability for photography.

Damn, these suffer from severe "what the hell am I looking at?" syndrome. Most of the units seem to blend into one purpleblackish mass/mess.

Having said that, I see potential in some of these. If only the paintjobs would give a better idea of what they actually look like...

 Darnok wrote:

Having said that, I see potential in some of these. If only the paintjobs would give a better idea of what they actually look like...

They look like nightmares mixed with Mantic elves (meaning impossibly thin to be an actual living elf). Not worth the price to me, but I'm sure some will be fan enough to build an army of these.

TBH, the paintjob is fine. And given average quality (at best) of Mantic miniatures, it's a waste to go any further than that IMHO.

 McDougall Designs wrote:


Don't know what you mean by "Non-Mantic" guys. I'm just a retailer and was waiting for permission to add the trade images to my listings.

I meant people like youtubers etc. who will show it better than Mantic, presenting all pros and cons.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 McDougall Designs wrote:


Don't know what you mean by "Non-Mantic" guys. I'm just a retailer and was waiting for permission to add the trade images to my listings.

I meant people like youtubers etc. who will show it better than Mantic, presenting all pros and cons.

I'll be putting up reviews when my stock order comes in. Should be mid October.

It would also be nice to see the sprues on the website, or more then 1 picture of a unit

 kodos wrote:

I like some of the mutated ones.

I like the corsairs more from seeing the concept art than I did from Mantic's assembled unit shot...I am probably gonna at least get a box of the Corsairs... but still debating on the ships... and don't really like any of the other stuff.

That design diary video is infuriating. Rant in spoilers if you want to skip it

I had been really looking forward to this release after seeing the Dungeon Saga sculpts, but Twilight kin looks nothing like an elf army. Instead they're just budget-brand Chaos with a couple not-Wych units allied in. You almost get more actual dark elf models in the Mirrors of Malice expansion than you do in the Mega-Army, you certainly get more types of dark elf models

Pics from the Video:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kalamadea wrote:
That design diary video is infuriating. Rant in spoilers if you want to skip it

in Kings of War, Elves are not androgynous, so they would need 2 different frames or use more armour/clothes

and yes, this is Kings of War and not 40k, just because Elves in 40k are that way does not mean any other Elves out there must also be that way
and TK are not a GW Elves army, same as Asterian are not Eldar, those are Twilight Kin and Asterians, not GW Elves (honestly if you want cheap GW Elves, buy a 3D printer, plenty of them out there)

but it is interesting, some are raging that Mantic is way too close to GW and does not make their own thing and just has cheap copies, the others are raging because Mantic does not make just cheap copies of GW models

 kodos wrote:
Pics from the Video:

Spoiler:

Elf VS Human


Render

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kalamadea wrote:
That design diary video is infuriating. Rant in spoilers if you want to skip it

in Kings of War, Elves are not androgynous, so they would need 2 different frames or use more armour/clothes

and yes, this is Kings of War and not 40k, just because Elves in 40k are that way does not mean any other Elves out there must also be that way
and TK are not a GW Elves army, same as Asterian are not Eldar, those are Twilight Kin and Asterians, not GW Elves (honestly if you want cheap GW Elves, buy a 3D printer, plenty of them out there)

but it is interesting, some are raging that Mantic is way too close to GW and does not make their own thing and just has cheap copies, the others are raging because Mantic does not make just cheap copies of GW models

If my pre-order numbers are anything to go by, most people want GW-similar OR things that are easily usable in other game systems.
Mantic has gone unique with the Twilight kin release, and I applaud them for that. I just wish that they would start selling a little better.

cheap 40k is what sells for obvious reasons (specially in the US)

yet, Mantic is not on the level to compete with ~1000 patreons of STL sellers that are doing GW like models for cheap (and the only reason they exist is that people want the GW stuff for cheap), as Mantic cannot make direct copies like people can with STLs and slightly different models won't sell.
But there are those who want something different, even if it is a niche

Though I am also getting at least one box of Corsairs to make some SciFi Elves, mainly because they look much more like the original metal Hagashin and are cheaper and easier to build than the resin Kalyshi

If someone wants cheap models to make a crew for the Dark Eldar transports, or general a cheaper Dark Eldar army (though I personally won't understand why anyone wants to go for them in 10th), these are still fine

 kodos wrote:
in Kings of War, Elves are not androgynous, so they would need 2 different frames or use more armour/clothes

The Northern Alliance Ice-Kin/Berserker kit managed mixed-sexes same-arms/heads just fine. It only didn't work here because Mantic went hyper sexualized BDSM for the dark elves, which isn't exactly original. And if they really needed 2 frames for twilight Kin, then they had 4 new kits to mix across. I'm not upset that we got a sexy elf female kit, I'm upset that we ONLY got a sexy elf female kit. Which, ironically, just makes it a budget Daughters of Khain Wych Aelf kit or conversion fodder for Drukhari, as you said

Dungeon Saga already showed what was supposed to be Mantic's new take on dark elves, so THATS what I expected from Twilight Kin sets. And it was a GOOD take on dark elves: relatively regular elves with nightmare/Void armor. But instead of turning Mirrors of Malice into an army we got 1 single kit that represents Corsairs, Fleetwardens and Voidwranglers, a second kit that is just those same models on fly-boats. A third kit that turned the normal sized armored infantry (the badass male elf unit) into giant 40mm based monstrosities, and finally a generic chaos mutation melee/caster unit specifically instead of the bow/glaive elf models shown in Mirrors of Malice. 4 elf kits, but really only 1 elf kit.

The Mantic video guy even points out that the original concept art was exactly what dark elf fans wanted/expected, and last video he pointed out that they nailed it the first time with Impalers in DS Origins. Then they specifically and deliberately moved away from that concept art, and specifically did it because they didn't want to make a dual-sex kit work. They then reworked the entire faction lore to justify a mono-sex kit, to the point that they've now codified into lore that we will NEVER get a cool sexy male elf kit to augment the cool sexy female elf kit because male elves can only ever be ugly mutated monsters or giant mutated armored monsters. No badass male elf general, no sexy male elf general. No badass male elf melee unit, no sexy male elf melee unit. No badass male elf ranged unit, no sexy male elf ranged unit. Nothing ever. And they did it on purpose, because of the mixed kit issue they arbitrarily created themselves to force the female unit to be sexy female unit.

I just wanted a nice mix of evil elves, both sexy and badass ones.

 McDougall Designs wrote:

If my pre-order numbers are anything to go by, most people want GW-similar OR things that are easily usable in other game systems.
Mantic has gone unique with the Twilight kin release, and I applaud them for that. I just wish that they would start selling a little better.

That's my issue, Twilight Kin is too niche and I absolutely want stuff that will work in other systems as well as they do in KoW. I feel like I should have been Mantic's target audience for these: veteran elf units using nightmare-creature slave/fodder units as chaff, backed up by the equivelant of Stormcast Eternal Super-Elves. It's such a good concept, but then we got...these...

Alas, Mantic pulled a Mantic and I'll be buying one box of Corsairs for conversion fodder instead of a new army

I think it's perfectly fine for Mantic to make models specifically for their own game.

I don't like the design on these but just because they're ugly, not because they don't fit into AoS or whatever.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I think it's perfectly fine for Mantic to make models specifically for their own game.

I don't like the design on these but just because they're ugly, not because they don't fit into AoS or whatever.

It's definitely fine for them to go unique. Frankly, the concept is cool. Lovecraftian horror mixed with elves.

I would say ugliness is subjective, but then I don't know specifically what you consider ugly about these.

Ya I'm going to have to join the disappointment train on this one, Ive been looking forward to getting some alternate fantasy dark elves options from the upcoming twilight kin for awhile and these are really not the aesthetic I was looking for.

 Kalamadea wrote:

Dungeon Saga already showed what was supposed to be Mantic's new take on dark elves, so THATS what I expected from Twilight Kin sets. And it was a GOOD take on dark elves: relatively regular elves with nightmare/Void armor. But instead of turning Mirrors of Malice into an army we got 1 single kit that represents Corsairs, Fleetwardens and Voidwranglers, a second kit that is just those same models on fly-boats. A third kit that turned the normal sized armored infantry (the badass male elf unit) into giant 40mm based monstrosities, and finally a generic chaos mutation melee/caster unit specifically instead of the bow/glaive elf models shown in Mirrors of Malice. 4 elf kits, but really only 1 elf kit.

I was also hoping for that.
At the very least I was hoping that the rest of the TK would be dressed as far toward sensible as the Dungeon Saga minis.
The void touched is a bit of a wasted opportunity IMO, I would have liked a second sprue of elves too. Even if they all had tentacles.
I don't see what the void touched kit offers that an existing nighstalker sprue couldn't have done.
Why not use reapers for gribbly monster infantry and make elves with hoods and spears or bows like in the Dungeon Saga minis?

There might well be elf kits of that sort in the works for elves though, which would make extra elves here a similar waste.

The impalers as large infantry are cool though. The void skiffs are a cool idea.
The heroes look cool enough that I might get them just to have and paint.

In any case; what I personally would prefer and what's best for everyone is not necessarily the same thing.
Mantic have their reasons and probably know something about this that I don't.
There is no pleasing everyone and plenty of people seem to be very excited by this release.

So the female kink elves are petite and the male kink elves hulk two or three heads taller than them? There’s a specter of some real unfortunate subtext hanging over this faction now that I really want to avoid thinking about.

I was just hoping for more of the DS style dark elves so I could Sci Fi them up as something like Wraith, Necromongers, or (Darkish) Eldar. I’ll need to see some pictures of these minis out in the wild because the Mantic photos are unflattering.

Thing is, people working at Mantic Games can have good ideas, but there's always something ruining it somehow in the process. Look at the artwork and the renders of these corsairs, they look indeed awesome...but artwork and renders aren't miniatures. Look at the final result with the plastic models, and you can only notice the plain difference. They look impossibly thin because at this scale (closer to 28mm), it's even more blatant. As a 3D sculptor myself, I know very well than when you do something that look "thin fine" on the renders, it's actually NOT representative on what would a 3D printed miniature look like.

Be it lack of quality control of final product, miscommunication between sculptors and artwork designers, something somewhere is always not working right at Mantic Games. They can't help but look like a cheap GW because of that reason.

As for what people want...it's what happens when you chase after GW all your life as a company, building your community with obviously former GW lovers who are still attached to their universes / game styles, and who were looking for cheaper alternatives. It's not a surprise not many are running to pre-order weird nightmare elves, especially with a price hike while there are very much cheaper alternatives or more awesomely good looking miniatures from other sources. It's actually only logical. I'm also not surprised by people thinking first of "Mantic dark elves" when they saw "Twilight Kin", and that when instead they got nightmares mixed with (a pinch of) elves they got disappointed. Well of course they are. Why would you pre-order that ? You'd rather wait and see instead of buying hundred of miniatures you're not sure of liking it yourself, and definitely won't be reselling later because no one wants it.

You can call me a hater all you like, but it won't change the number of pre-orders / sales. That's what counts, not "feelings" or "lots of people say they like them". If people don't buy, it's just a failure in the end.

Sarouan wrote:

As for what people want...it's what happens when you chase after GW all your life as a company, building your community with obviously former GW lovers who are still attached to their universes / game styles, and who were looking for cheaper alternatives.

That's not what Mantic is doing though.
If anything, they've been working to set themselves apart and do something different.
The KoW community may have many former GW players, but most of them are not terribly fond of GW anymore.
It's also been nearly a decade, so plenty of KoW players who never player WHFB.

The people you are talking about are probably going to go back to GW when WtOW drops, so not a great target market for Mantic.

I'm also not surprised by people thinking first of "Mantic dark elves" when they saw "Twilight Kin", and that when instead they got nightmares mixed with (a pinch of) elves they got disappointed.

The does not sound like "chasing after GW".

You can call me a hater all you like, but it won't change the number of pre-orders / sales. That's what counts, not "feelings" or "lots of people say they like them". If people don't buy, it's just a failure in the end.

I can just as easily say the converse to you...

Do you have sales numbers for a product that just released for pre-order?

 DarkBlack wrote:

That's not what Mantic is doing though.
If anything, they've been working to set themselves apart and do something different.
The KoW community may have many former GW players, but most of them are not terribly fond of GW anymore.
It's also been nearly a decade, so plenty of KoW players who never player WHFB.
The people you are talking about are probably going to go back to GW when WtOW drops, so not a great target market for Mantic.

Yes, they're trying to correct that course in the recent years, because they understand that's just a dead end. But they still can't ignore it because their community doesn't have enough "newblood" who doesn't have that past history with them, it's still populated with lots of previous GW lovers. That's why I said I'm not surprised by the end result here.

The does not sound like "chasing after GW".

Yes, but remember ; the Twilight Kin has always been the "dark elf equivalent" of Mantic Games. There were past representations of how Mantic Games saw them. This here ? It's different, and that's the issue with their community remembering what they did before. They wanted dark elves, not "nightmares with a pinch of elves" (TBH, they make me remember the Githyankis from D&D settings).

Give your community what they don't want, and there will not be a great response in return.

It's just a matter of time, obviously. If Mantic Games keeps being coherent on that matter and doesn't decide to do something else instead in the middle...sadly, past history of what they did isn't going in their favor. I don't blame MG customers being careful, honestly.

But then I guess MG can always make a new hyping kickstarter to gather a lot of money in a short time for glorified pre-order.

I can just as easily say the converse to you...

Do you have sales numbers for a product that just released for pre-order?

McDougall has obviously, that's why he wrote his comment above. You may always dismiss the feedback of one retailer about numbers of pre-orders on his shop so far, sure, but do you really need that justification in the end ? If you don't want to see, there's no point in trying to force your eyes open.

Sarouan wrote:

Yes, they're trying to correct that course in the recent years, because they understand that's just a dead end. But they still can't ignore it because their community doesn't have enough "newblood" who doesn't have that past history with them, it's still populated with lots of previous GW lovers. That's why I said I'm not surprised by the end result here.

Were are you getting this from?
You're making sweeping statements about how Mantic operates and the KoW community that appear to be based on assumptions and outdated generalizsations.

The day after preorders is a bit early to be declaring "end results".

I guess he means for a company to be successful they must be like GW
if the product does not sell out on pre-order it is a fail

 kodos wrote:
I guess he means for a company to be successful they must be like GW
if the product does not sell out on pre-order it is a fail

Its not even that it sells out day-after-preorders open. I think most customers are waiting for rules previews to drop cash.

My regulars have certainly intimated that such is the case for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
clearest picture of the voidtouched I've yet seen.

I'm seeing conversion potential for chaos gamers and for those who like cuthulu esque themes. Such as a PoTC davy jones army.

Those might work some sci Fi, too. There are all kinds of gooey bio-armor…

Waiting for the rules is a thing for sure, simply to know which combination of boxes to go with

2 player set (if you have someone to share) and Ambush are no brainer, question is what else which is also depending on what heroes you need

Army sets are save with KoW, but it is more about which combination of the 3 big sets it should be

PS: yeah TK Voidtouched and NS Reapers are sets with so many possibilities also in SciFi (Deadspace, Resident Evil, etc.)
They are universal like the Zombies and no one else has something like that in plastic

ChaosXomega brought up an interesting take on kings of war kits in the conquest thread.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Some of the previewed sculpt are incredible. If they can successfully translate them to production kits, I think Conquest will be giving TOW a serious run for its money within the next year or two.

No chance in hell. Not the same scale, not the same universe, not the same quality as well (some may be better than before, but it's still not that great overall - these last ones don't inspire me at all, TBH). Let's just accept both communities have different kinds of fans who aren't really in competition with each other. If you were talking about Kings of War, that would be more believable.

Yeah, lets agree to disagree. The scale and universe are entirely irrelevant and its pointless to even bring that up as a point of comparison. The quality on the most recent Conquest kits is better than anything we've ever seen from WHFB - given that the majority of the TOW range is supposed to be re-issues of old kits, Conquest will actually have the advantage in quality over it, at least until GW starts releasing new plastic kits in significant quantity.

And lol, Kings of War kits are awful, they are the dollar store fantasy miniatures kits in this discussion.

Dollar store fantasy miniatures kits? I find that a surprising take. The closest thing in miniature gaming that I could see ever being related to something coming out of a dollar store would be the old sales that the now non-producing Wargames factory used to do with their deep discount sales.

I distinctly remember getting bundles of 12 persians for $2 each and thinking it was the key to a large army as a cash strapped college age teenager. And those persians certainly qualified as dollar store level in terms of sculpting.

Mantic has had a distinct air of discount alternative since the original undead were released, but I've never likened them to dollar store material. It's always been clear that they've had decent sculpting that gave a damn, and mantic's concept work has always been good.

Hell let's take a look at the Twilight King that just came out for pre-order everywhere.

Even at a discount retailer, an army said is at maximum, $88 USD and includes 30 regular infantry, 6 large infantry, and a character. 37 miniatures total. 88 ÷ 37 = $2.37 each, and that is discounted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:


PS: yeah TK Voidtouched and NS Reapers are sets with so many possibilities also in SciFi (Deadspace, Resident Evil, etc.)
They are universal like the Zombies and no one else has something like that in plastic

Exactly. They are worth the money even if the only thing you intend them for is conversion fodder.