Rank & File was not always a thing and a lot over time
the main advantage has always been to defend better against cavalry and other fast attacks
even as late as the napoleonic wars, were a fire line was the best offensive formation and a square the best defensive one, the french had success with the column that replaced the line as main formation up to a point
because the higher vulnerability against artillery was compensated by the possibility to build easier & faster a square, being less vulnerable in the flanks in general and was much easier to maintain for less trained troops
during history we saw skirmish formations, replaced by R&F, replaced by Skirmish again that changed to R&F and only in modern times the Skirmish ones seems to stay (I guess until we develop some kind of shield technology and we are back to R&F again)
kodos wrote: Well, there are flame thrower and rocket launchers in the game, and this thing looks like a machine gun but it does not mean it works like a modern one (same like an original Galting is different from a modern Mini-Gun as well as from a multi barrel flintlock)
And rats having machine guns in fantasy is nothing new
GW's Skaven have Gatling Guns for a very long time now, and no one really ever cared that with this guns they should dominate the world that was, as well as Age of Sigmar
Skaven Gatling guns have a hand crank and are seriously unreliable. Plus you have the idea that Skaven would dominate the world if they stopped fighting among themselves.
the weapon is a Rattlecannon with 18" range, D6+7 Attacks and Piercing 2
so unreliable and short ranged
I have been mulling over the question of 'whats the difference' in my head between a Fantasy Maxim gun and Fantasy Gatling gun and why I seriously dislike one, but not the other.
The Maxim gun (Gatling gun as well) were used against native populations as well as against other industrial powers. So in a Fantasy setting, it should not too much of a stretch imagining Rat Machine guns against populations armed with bows and heavy armour?
I think it comes down to how iconic the weapon is and how much of a game changer it was historically, and that slapping one into a setting should have implications for the entire setting.
I never really liked the Gatling in a Fantasy setting, as it needs much more to work than other weapons
Flamethrower were a thing already for Acient Greeks, we just lost the knowledge how to make them so this can work in a fantasy world as well
a Gatling needs Cartridge and Primers to work wich is really something that only comes up with more modern weapons
a multibarrel rapid fire flintlock on the other hand was done very early but never really made as it was not faster (just having more burst damage and longer reload)
looking back in history, air guns were a thing, known for high rate of fire but short range with the big disadvantage of needing a lot of pumps to get enough air in (which is less of a problem if mounted on a machine)
and the earliest rapid fire flintlock "gun" meant as a short range weapon for ships was around 1700 and problem with caseless ammunition is that more heat stays inside the weapon and additional cooling is needed
a watercooled barrel for a gun using caseless ammunition is more "in line" than an actual gatling gun
what i think the problem here is, is that we are already used to multi-barrel weapons from GW in a fantasy setting that is looks less strange to us than a barrel with a mantle were the only other link we can make is a WW1 machine gun
Yep the Puckle gun was back in 1710 (lucky enough to work in place where we have one as the owner was one of the original sponsors of the invention) - apparently it was quite effective but the navy (as the original customer) was not convinced that cannons and grapeshot would not do the same job against corsairs etc.
Logistics is also an issue - keeping an effective army in the field is not easy - especially since in history very few were professional and usually had to go home to harvest.
The Skavens incredable techonlogy is countered by the even greater self destructive tendacies - do the Mantic Ratlings have similar issues?
Armour is another thing that varies greatly across historical periods both in terms of effectiveness and the larger the army the larger the cost to equip.
The new models also tick the rule fo cool for me - much more than the other ratling stuff.
Let's not forget that the average ratling gun catastrophically misfires and blows up with great frequency. And is, in essence, running on unstable highly radioactive fuel. This goes for Skaven tech in general; levels of user harm which would be considered appalling are just Tuesday. If we set the bar to 'this only needs to work half the time and if it kills the crew the other half no biggie' weapons development suddenly becomes a lot easier.
the reason why all those repeating flintlocks never made it was price
if one weapon that fires 3-5 times faster cost more than adding 10 more soldiers to the unit and cannot be repaired on the field, it was not worth it
for a just broken free from slavery people that wants to bring war to others that just throws enough gak to the wall until something sticks, while having the technology (technical, magical and biological) of their former masters as a base to work with
there is a lot more possible than for the normal human kingdom that first needs to care that their peasants don't die like flys
Mr Morden wrote: Yep the Puckle gun was back in 1710 (lucky enough to work in place where we have one as the owner was one of the original sponsors of the invention) - apparently it was quite effective but the navy (as the original customer) was not convinced that cannons and grapeshot would not do the same job against corsairs etc.
I also read that some considered it more dangerous for the crew than for the attackers, which would the Ratkin theme
They test fired it in the rain and it did very well
At a later public trial held in 1722, a Puckle gun was able to fire 63 shots in seven minutes (approximately nine rounds per minute)
Not heard it was damaging to crew - although it was noted as being damaging to "investors" as lampooned in the contempoary media. The 2nd Duke of Montagu bought a number of them for a attempt to create a slavery fee colony in St Luctia and St Vincent but his man upset the navy who would not support him against the French......A man came over from Australia quite a few years ago, measured the one on display in the armoury and made his own working version.
Also lets not forget that weapon tech can be expensive and manpower is often not...
Did you know it’s been almost two and a half years since we launched Kings of War: Vanguard? Inspired by the many factions of Pannithor, Vanguard tells the story of the skirmishes before the big battles. It’s the opportunity for you to live out the brave adventures of small warbands often sent behind enemy lines to disrupt the plans of foes and rivals.
Since launching we’ve created full warbands for 12 factions, released the Ice and Iron supplement and held sold out tournaments here at Mantic HQ (and elsewhere). In fact, Vanguard has proved to be so popular that we quickly sold out of the Ice & Iron supplement and earlier this year sold out of the latest re-print of hardback rulebook.
After releasing the rulebook in October 2018, there have been a number of changes to the game (via errata) and, of course, we’ve released a lot of new models each time we create a full warband. So, when it came to reprinting the rulebook we decided this was actually a great opportunity to incorporate those changes and make sure that any new players are playing the most up to date rules, without the need to download additional stuff.
With that in mind, we’re pleased to announce that the reprinted Vanguard rulebook has been updated to Vanguard 1.1 – and you can see all the changes below. The new softback rulebook is now the standard Vanguard rulebook and will also come in the revised two-player starter set… all of which can be ordered now. Of course, if you’ve got the old rulebook, it’s still perfectly playable and you can find out how to update that later in this blog.
MAJOR CHANGES IN THE REVISED VANGUARD RULEBOOK
Here you can see the major changes in the revised book. The main thing to remember is that the core rules remain the same, however we have tweaked certain elements to make them clearer. This isn’t Vanguard Second Edition… it’s more like Vanguard + errata + some cleaning up = super fun times for everyone. YAY!
Integrated previous errata and FAQ and cleared up some language
Added the Ice & Iron campaign and story into the core rulebook + all the new scenarios – as mentioned we have sold out of the Ice & Iron supplement, so thought this was a great opportunity to include the extra missions in the core book
Removed all warbands from the rulebook – this may seem like an odd decision, but these are all free online (you can download them here) or in EasyArmy for list building. This means the rulebook doesn’t go out of date as soon as we release a new warband and it allows us to errata units more easily, without immediately making the rulebook obsolete
Called all counters and markers “tokens” for consistency
Forced Fatigue now called Heroic Effort – there was some confusion among players about the difference between Fatigue and Forced Fatigue, so we’ve cleared this up
Standing models that are engaged by an enemy model can now Brace as well as Break Away and Melee
Break Away action updated to free Melee attack with no retaliations. Models Breaking away can no longer engage another enemy model when doing so
Amended the Jumping rule to be more consistent (so rolling high is better)
Clarified what objectives are the scenarios and their sizes
Changed what happens if one side is wiped out – the game is played to completion
Reduced speed to 5 while carrying the plans in Recover the Plans
Noted in several scenarios that models need to be standing to contest or claim objectives
Burn the Stores – short actions now to start/put out fires and position of the barn adjusted
Updated the Portal scenario to teleport models back to their own deployment area instead of into the void
Clarified the Malevolence spell
In campaigns, reduced the amount you have to spend on the Company at the start to 250.
Restructured the order of the phases to make them more logical.
Also updated the underdog bonus dice rules and allowed them to be used each Round
Changed Mauler to Grizzled Veteran with new rules
“HANG ON! I’VE ALREADY GOT A VANGUARD RULEBOOK… WHAT DO I DO?” Ah, it’s our old friend, imaginary blog reader… and they’ve got a very pertinent question. We realise that some of you may have just bought a rulebook or have a rulebook sitting on the shelf, so you may be a little concerned your book is now out of date. Fret not dear blog reader because we have a number of solutions to cater to this issue…
[list]DIGITAL RULEBOOKS – all digital rulebooks previously ordered from the Mantic website will be updated to include the new rulebook totally free of charge. Simply head to the ‘downloads’ section of your account and download the rulebook again. We’re expecting this to be ready later this week
It is a good Skirmish game but more of a stand alone product that get all your attention instead of being a supplement for smaller games to Kings of War
It is not Deadzone in Fantasy, which is good and bad at the same time
Yet I consider Vanguard a good option to get some old models into play or use other themes (by a discussion on a different forum, it come up that would work for as a 30 Years War / Pike & Shot Skirmish were there are not many rules around to begin with)
XL ships - May
Seas Aflame - July
Elf Fleet - September
- Flyers - Orc Slasher, Winggit, Phoenix etc. 30mm base, not all to scale best fit for game.
- Optional magic rules supplement - with card deck
- New campaign system
- 10 new scenarios
- 4 new fleets, Elves, Twilight Kin, 2 others early 2022 - full releases inc. XLs and flyers
- Twilight Kin design shares Nightstalker themes
KoW
Air Elementals, Drakons, Ogre Warlock - May
Salamanders - June
Halflings - late summer
Halflings are a full KoW army - core list not a themed list
- 1 HIPS kit makes both the foot infantry (spears, hand weapons, guns) and cavalry.
- upgrade kits for bows and heavy cavalry
- Iron Beast from League of Infamy
don't see the fight here with Wargames Atlantic, they have 1 Box of mixed infantry/militia while Mantic adds Cavalry and more armoured infantry (those are more working together than fighting each other)
yet for TT combat, those are Resin while Mantic will be plastic
and that Halflings are coming was said when 3rd came out so it is not really something new, others were just faster with their releases (and I still don't know why Halflings became popular outside of KoW)
I like the halflings, making them ride big dogs is making me remember the days of Dungeon and Dragons. Looks like the infantry will be mixed too, and that's always nice !
Wonder what will be their final height, they look a bit bigger than what you usually think about halflings. No naked feet as well.
The Salamanders...their infantry look like another nightmare to put in rank-and-file units (especially the corsairs). Is that pistols they're supposed to handle ? I remember the complaint about GW's weapon scale creep, and looks like KoW is trying to catch up their big brother on that matter.
State of Mantic games in Europe is completely crippled with pandemic combined to Brexit and how they handle support in others countries than UK, so I don't know if KoW will survive more years outside of their beloved island.
kodos wrote: Armada is 1/700 heroic so more of 3mm
in the stream they said that the flyers are not scaled but made to fit the game and use 30mm Bases
from this info they should work at least for 6mm gaming
Thank you
Might be able to use it 10mm as well then depending on how much larger they'll scale compared to the ships. 30mm bases are usually a quite good fit for monsters in 10mm scale.
My personal experience after 3 games is that it gets more interesting once the L ships enter the fray, as their broadsides are actually capable of sinking enemy ships in 2 to 3 ranged phases.
Beneath that, it does tend to get a bit grindy and tedious.
Esmer wrote: My personal experience after 3 games is that it gets more interesting once the L ships enter the fray, as their broadsides are actually capable of sinking enemy ships in 2 to 3 ranged phases.
Beneath that, it does tend to get a bit grindy and tedious.
Yikes. I wonder if the addition of the flyers and magic are enough to bulk the game out into something fun?
Esmer wrote: My personal experience after 3 games is that it gets more interesting once the L ships enter the fray, as their broadsides are actually capable of sinking enemy ships in 2 to 3 ranged phases.
Beneath that, it does tend to get a bit grindy and tedious.
It bums me out to hear this.
I was as excited for this release as I've been for anything in years - then I learned it was based on the grindy, slow Black Seas. I played a little solo, and it was terribly... slow. And interesting decisions were limited. Ships firing from afar, doing 2-3 pts of damage to a 30-40 pt ship.... I didn't even have much luck closing the range (and didn't play with the L ships, as I feared they would just have too many HPs, and take too long to whittle down). I love the models, but they remain packed up and put away (and likely won't come out, as I'll be spoiled for choices once everyone gets their vaccines).
This compared to Oak & Iron, which was fun, fast, and had other interesting decisions (there's cardplay which feels a lot more fun). Just no fantasy. :(
Shadow Walker wrote:Rhinosaurs and Air Elementals are my favourites.
QFT. Mantic's elementals continue to rival the rest of the market (as well as most 3D sculptors) when it comes to wargaming miniatures (i.e. more than a single pose for DND), happy to see the air released. Rhinosaurs are lovely chonky boys.
Sarouan wrote:The Salamanders...their infantry look like another nightmare to put in rank-and-file units (especially the corsairs). Is that pistols they're supposed to handle ? I remember the complaint about GW's weapon scale creep, and looks like KoW is trying to catch up their big brother on that matter.
The magic of multibasing is ironically? fittingly? especially important with modern Mantic minis, which are frankly too big to single-base IMO. Following PMC (75% capacity) gives much better results with the Northern Alliance clansmen, these sallies, etc. But yea, I feel the scale weirdness with the new sallies, even if they're supposed to be pretty beefy, they end up looking huge when mounted on anything.
State of Mantic games in Europe is completely crippled with pandemic combined to Brexit and how they handle support in others countries than UK, so I don't know if KoW will survive more years outside of their beloved island.
My interest in KOW, and that of a great many gamers, isn't Mantic's minis, tho aye, I suppose if we want a living ruleset, we'll need the company to stay afloat ...
Related, the scaled down flying phoenix is at the top of my wishlist ... for KOW purposes There are very few flying, smaller phoenix sculpts available, anywhere, and I have a need.
This compared to Oak & Iron, which was fun, fast, and had other interesting decisions (there's cardplay which feels a lot more fun). Just no fantasy. :(
haven't played Oak and Iron but Armada is less slow than Black Seas for sure
Good to hear there are others enjoying it. I'd like to give it another try (and will for sure pick up some fliers), I was just a bit disappointed with my first try
I have to say that I did not expect something special for the game
it is an Age of Sail style ship game, I did not expect to have devestating salvos or very fast gameplay, (this is not X-Wing) but more of a Master & Commander or Hornblower themed experience
those heads look weird for some reason, too large? or are they digitally maniputlated onto the bodies (I know the whole thing is a render, but they look a bit sharper focused than the rest of the image, layering in the software?)
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Man, the new Ratkin sure are calling me. I'm sorely tempted to go all in on them. Anyone have experience with them mechanically? Fun army to play?
Ratkin are a great army, and I too have been tempted to replace my old WHFB Skaven with all this new Mantic. I'm happy to help shop lists and whatnot if you'd like to make a post down in the Mantic part of this forum / message me, but in the meantime here's where Dash28 reviews the individual units, which will help get a sense for what's avoidable / good / great in 3E: https://dash28.org/2020/08/14/kings-of-war-3rd-edition-ratkin-tier-review/
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Man, the new Ratkin sure are calling me. I'm sorely tempted to go all in on them. Anyone have experience with them mechanically? Fun army to play?
Ratkin are a great army, and I too have been tempted to replace my old WHFB Skaven with all this new Mantic. I'm happy to help shop lists and whatnot if you'd like to make a post down in the Mantic part of this forum / message me, but in the meantime here's where Dash28 reviews the individual units, which will help get a sense for what's avoidable / good / great in 3E: https://dash28.org/2020/08/14/kings-of-war-3rd-edition-ratkin-tier-review/
I have an older WHFB Skaven army too, but I just want to really support Mantic when they make models I like. I gladly bought a mountain of Northern Alliance because they clicked for me, and the new Ratkin are doing it for me as well.
Good point. Regardless of what they look like to humans, they are adults of their species. And at least in Tolkien's works live on average twenty years longer than humans.
Perhaps when they are released I'll be able to get some from a sprue seller like I did for the WGA Halflings. Using them for RPG-like skirmishes, so I don't need many, and really, the five from the WGA is enough. I just like variety.
Thanks for reposting these! I'm pumped for the scorchwings, it's been real hard finding flying fire birds that aren't pterodactyls or gigantic centerpiece phoenixes
Those look excellent, and normally I would be itching to preorder, but the wife and I have hobby/painting sorted for Mantic 2021. We pulled the trigger on a LOT of the gorgeous new Ratkin, and still need to paint 160 Clansmen for my Northern Alliance.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: How would you prime them when you use Apothecary White? Grey? White? Cream? Curious...
I Don't prime (Shoot me I know), but I brush undercoat models I want to use apothecary white on with Corax white. It lets the apothecary white do it's job with the light grey shadowing.
I always use a Krylon Max that is a dead-ringer for the Contrast off-white primer. The Apothecary White always looks excellent over it, and just a touch warmer.
Dunno...they're good looking at first sight, but there's something bothering me.
I think it's the general design. It's stuck between their history of being clearly "not GW lizardmen" with the original GW primitive setting and the will of Mantic Games to do something more distinctive, like the fire-based salamanders.
When you look at the scorchwing then the more "dinosaur like" mounts, that is exactly the embodiment of that IMHO.
Also, they really look bulky on the renders. I know, you will answer "multibases" instantly, but still...feels like a bigger scale creep that's not adapted to base-to-base units. The more I see new releases, the more I wonder if they're intended at all to be faithful to the "normal numbers" of miniatures a unit should have depending of its category.
Sometimes, I actually wonder what Mantic Games is trying to do with KoW miniature design on long term.
Prime white, slop some Space Wolves Gray Contrast Paint on there...
BATTLE WORTHY!
Honestly, getting KoW armies done, rather than forever half-finished has made me really embrace, "good enough" simple schemes, and cheats. From three feet away, even a simply painted mass-battles army looks incredible anyway.
Models that can look great in 1, 2, 3, etc... colors? OK!!!
Da Boss wrote: I'm not a huge fan of those Air Elementals but they're a really difficult concept to execute on properly.
Heh. I remember one of my friends presenting me a unit of 6 empty bases and saying they are Air Elementals. I said "but they're just bases, there's no miniature on them". And he answered "well yeah, you can't see air, it's invisible". I laughed.
Joke aside, there's no good or bad Air Elemental, since they can litterally take any shape after all. This one is as good as another.
I dunno, I feel like for those prices I want to get higher quality miniatures. Though the unit of airs is solid thanks to those dynamic poses as compared to offerings from reaper or rpg minis.
Eh, regiment prices seem fine, especially considering the market, and especially considering how good dracons are in the game. And especially considering that Mantic is using more and more of their quite good resin, even over metal (a material I'm pretty burned out on myself). As for the big'uns, they tend to be pretty huge, so it's ok. And we live in a world where Dub charges MUCH more for enormous plastic heroes, so big ol' shrug.
Also re: the air elementals, these - in particular the unit - are the best of their kind I know of, and I've done a lot of elemental research, including 3D sculptors. Getting more than one good elemental sculpt for unit purposes is rough, especially if you don't want just one giant one. Plus air elemental models are rarely very good, or just come in one big tornado man dude guy mode.
lord_blackfang wrote: Good release but years late, I already sourced all my lizards elsewhere.
Meanwhile I'm gearing up to rebuild my Sallies with as much Mantic as possible (still no Ember Sprites )
Brimstone Horrors
Naw, Puppets War Infant Demonic Elementals are better sculpts, cheaper and faster to clean up I'm not hurting for Sprites but Mantic is, as far as 100% Mantic goes (so I'm settling on 85%)
Mantic's model quality dramatically improving over the last couple years isn't helping my project queue. Like Boss Salvage I am trying to finally retire my WHFBKoW armies, and give Mantic their due... This means I now own three 100% Mantic armies that are each 1/3rd painted...
Excited for Armada news. Its this close to being a game I can be excited about, but needs just a little extra meat. I'm hoping the addition of flyers and magic will do the trick.
Looking forward to the elf fleet and the Salamander fleet. The halflings look fun so far, but I’m not sure how many I need since I have some WGA halflings already.
Elfes thought to be the best on the oceans until the met Salamanders who are equal (or better) as it turned out that they come from a bigger Empire in the east to Mantica and have a history of Seafarers
The halflings are much better, some very cool and surprising units like the grenadiers and troll gunners. That Aralez is just a dog though, and super tiny as something that is currently large cavalry
They confirmed on the stream that the halfling army plays a bit similar to goblins and that core halflings are cheap (and trolls are expensive ).
Which is why I'm not sure about their idea of making a plastic box that can make 10 infantry AND 5 cavalry. It seems like you'll need a lot of infantry, but how many cavalry units do you really need ? I don't believe it's the same quota.
I know, I can make a multibase regiment / horde with half the miniatures really needed, but I don't think units look good with a few sparse miniatures here and there like they were skirmishers.
Otherwise, for not playing KoW, this plastic box will be really neat.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I'm cautiously hoping that KoW silhouette is an expansion of Empire of Dust, as it seems to be a Manticore or Chimera of some sort?
My assumption is it's finally a Varangur model from Mantic Hyped either way, great teaser!
Also dig all the dogs in the Halfling release! Unexpected!
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I'm cautiously hoping that KoW silhouette is an expansion of Empire of Dust, as it seems to be a Manticore or Chimera of some sort?
My assumption is it's finally a Varangur model from Mantic Hyped either way, great teaser!
Also dig all the dogs in the Halfling release! Unexpected!
Good call. I forget that even a few kits and a few upgrade sets for Northern Alliance models could make for a wonderful Varangur line.
I was a hair away from buying hard into Armada as it was, but the support for the game looks amazing, the releases have been awesome, and they seem to be making good additions to fleshing the system out.
I feel like I may end up placing a giant order. Any idea what the large/normal game size is? I feel like whatever size expands beyond 4x4 is the right one as maneuverability is the lifeblood of games like this.
200-250 points is a standard game. Ship costs are all over the place (tiny ships are <10 points, Large are 60-70 pts and I don't know what the XL are, but in a podcast Matt Gilbert said they hovered at or just over 100pts)
The 200pt games I've played had 5-7 ships on the table, per side, and were very manageable. If you get the starter and booster, you're set to go. Now you can get singles if you want, since the game sold well, so if there are particular ships that really float your boat you'll be able to load up on 'em without having to buy a full boxed set
For what it is worth, the tournament pack clarified all my questions. Mantic does indeed consider 250pts on 4x4 the "standard" full game, and the game requires a minimum of five ships at that size (so no taking 3 unkillable big boys).
I didn't want to wait, and my research into Dystopian Wars was an unflattering comparison where even base Armada seems like the more robust game. We ended up getting two of each bundle for Empire of Dust and Orcs, and I figure we'll get some games in before the flyers and such launch.
Exactly. The base wind rules just create a bit of activation fog-of-war which is fluffy and abstract. The full wind rules turn it into a more complex game mechanic that is optional as it mucks with balance a bit (some ships have engines which suddenly make them notably better).
I found I really like the mechanism. If you're a good player, you can accelerate past your opponent to improve your position (i.e., move "upwind") and that ship will get to go first relative to its victim (assuming the wind does not change significantly!). This wasn't a major part of our game, but it was kinda fun to go second, see where your enemy stops, and (if well positioned!) speed up to gain the initiative the next turn.
I've never played a system that does wind well (by which I mean: fun), so I'm grateful for this simple system. There is an advanced wind system that we haven't tried, but affects ships with sails more. As it is, ships with engines or oars have a little more maneuverability than do their sailed counterparts. Simple and fun!
In some cases, the price is only going up by 1p to round it up from £19.99 to £20 – this is just to make it easier when putting the catalogue together. Others are going up by £2.50 and there are a few that will increase more – this is generally where there are number of factors putting pressure on the end price. However, in every case we’ve tried to keep the increases sensible and still offer great value products.
We’ll be implementing the price rises on our website and to our retail partners from August 1st..
Oh good, at least we're getting rid of .99 type prices, infuriating when there's a 50 GBP shipping threashold and you end up being 3 pennies short because of that.
I won't begrudge them, especially as some models are clearly mispriced. The now famous over-sized Giant kit is literally a third of GW's similar offering (in terms of volume of plastic, box size, etc...) Them asking for $5 more for it still leaves it as an absolute steal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, an another preview of the new supplement!
In other news, Victoria Games, the french distributor of Mantic Games products, announced they stopped translating / distributing Mantic Games products.
No more official french version of KoW. Sad.
Victoria Games said they had a conflict with Mantic Games about providing products for a Kickstarter they made for the french version of the current edition of KoW. Apparently by Victoria Games, Mantic Games (and thus our great Ronnie some say he was transparent with price increases ) didn't want to assume / deliver some sales that were made for the Kickstarter.
That, we don't have a blog from Ronnie talking about in advance. So much for transparence and honesty.
More seriously, we don't have Mantic Games' version about this pitiful end and Victoria Games is known to have made a lot of promises that weren't kept.
Otherwise, Mantic Games sent a mail to those who bought on their webstore in the year to give a -15% off code to use before 31/07/21.
Since I won't use mine (taxes for importing in EU doesn't make it that interesting to me, sadly), here it is for the first to see and use it :
Spoiler:
jh4i-nwto-fxqv
"15% OFF YOUR NEXT WEBSITE ORDER
Until July 31st, enter the code below at checkout to get 15% off your order*. This is our little way of saying thank for purchasing from the Mantic website over the past year. We really appreciate your support and we definitely have some of the best fans in tabletop gaming."
A cool new Ratkin STL kickstarter just dropped that's close to GW style but includes some KoW specific units like rat cavalry. I think there's also some way to get physical prints.
lord_blackfang wrote: A cool new Ratkin STL kickstarter just dropped that's close to GW style but includes some KoW specific units like rat cavalry. I think there's also some way to get physical prints.
And, yes, you can order physical prints if you don’t have access to a quality 3D printer. I’ve ordered both wolf rats and rat swarms from them in the past and they’re very nice models.
lord_blackfang wrote: Christ Mantic needs to shop around for new artists, $10 patreons throw out a dozen better sculpts every month than what I see above
If they did that, then they would have to update all their old models as well so we could have all decent looking models instead of what they currently offer. But since they are model agnostic with their rules you are more than capable of using whatever you find that fits.
If they did that, then they would have to update all their old models as well so we could have all decent looking models instead of what they currently offer. But since they are model agnostic with their rules you are more than capable of using whatever you find that fits.
Armada isn't model agnostic. It is meant and designed to be played with Mantic miniatures.
They look in line with what they produced before, to me. Sure, flock of gargoyles feels a bit too busy, but well...at this scale and if it meant to be used as a single unit, you don't have a lot of choices so that it's still convenient to be played with the game system.
It's funny to me that the nightmare ship's hulk is really nightmarish and tortured, but the sails are perfectly smooth. I know, they use standard sails here for convenience, but I was expecting screaming faces all over their surface as well.
Oops didn't realize the flyers were Armada models as well, if they're the size of a thumbnail that's a different matter. The ship has an identity crisis for sure tho.
I took a look at Wayland and the mega army seems heavy on the normal infantry. I didn't see any of the ogre riders that iirc were previewed in this thread some pages back.
I sure do wish they'd gone with something more interesting than the traditional Basilean sails for their Twilight Kin ships. That's a bit of a bummer.
Would love to see Thingverse alternatives for sails, but can't find any alternatives (wasn't really expecting to find any... "weird fantasy sails" isn't really a big demand...)
The dog riders are quite cute, I like where they've gone with the theme on this one.
Mantic's first HIPs cavalry too, which is great to see, I hope they're able to go back and do something similar for the rest of their armies once everything gets a full army release (just Herd, Twilight Kin and Varangur waiting now).
Two units in HIPs means that the army box is still a great deal (40 infantry, 20 cavalry, monster and hero) even after the price rise.
They look really good painted up, and fittingly these might be some of the only Mantic units that you can easily run at Full Model Count I continue to appreciate the unexpected doggo factor, looking forward to the maniac who does an entire army of dog cav
Boss Salvage wrote: They look really good painted up, and fittingly these might be some of the only Mantic units that you can easily run at Full Model Count I continue to appreciate the unexpected doggo factor, looking forward to the maniac who does an entire army of dog cav
That Halfling army is quite charming! Not looking to start another army, but if I was I would strongly consider it. So different from what's out there already but still true to a halfling aesthetic and it has -and hopefully will retain- a more unified aesthetic and higher level of quality than some of the earlier armies.
Not a huge fan of the Ogre lawn mower, but that'd just be an easy and fun chance to model up some interesting warmachine with an alternative propulsion system.
I am really liking the top hat and the muskets. And the engineer with the anti-materiel rifle. I am tempted to get some to use as Gnomes rather than Halflings. I hope they kitbash well with Wargames Atlantic Halflings.
I am usually not a fan of Mantic's look regarding miniatures. There have been some exceptions, but not many. But... I really like the look of these halflings., I have been slowly building a Halfling army, using Wargames atlantic and some Westphalia goat cavalry. But since the Westphalia goats dont seem to be available right now, those doggos may just replace them.
The plastic, armored dogs are a godsend to Sci fi gamers. Cybermastiffs? Add some lasting bits. Uplifted sapients? Add some robot arms. Space dogs? Add air canisters over the saddle of the closed-helm dogs. Aliens? They could already work as Vernor Vinge’s Tines, but a few spider parts or whatever open up even more possibilities.
stonehorse wrote: Just seen the Mantic price increase, we knew things were going up, but I am shocked to see €30 for 20 Skeletons. That kit is about 8-9 years old.
Vampire Lord was €9.99 when I bought it before the price hike, now €12.50
That is an increase of €2.50, a quarter of the original price.
I wonder if Mantic are having issues?
Base materials / shipping price increase, and not just for Mantic Games. For everyone.
Yep, it hurts but hey, just making me remember it's not just GW that's "evil" in this world.
More seriously, it was bound to happen at some time. At least they were clear about this. They know they have to keep maintaining that "gamer friendly" reputation if they want to retain their fanbase.
kodos wrote: they have, Ronnie explained some in a blog post, basically Brexit+Pandemic
Hm, he didn't really specify it was the Brexit and Pandemic...more like a general base price increase affecting all other companies in the same field as well.
If plastic / resin become more expensive to buy, turns out you're profiting less from your miniatures made from them if you keep selling at the same price.
I remember reading what Ronnie posted when this was announced, just shocked to see a 25% increase in some cases.
Generally the "regiment boxes", I guess. All the "bundles" have been less impacted, though.
It's not that bad, IMHO. But yes, the comparison still hurts. Guess we'll do the same with the new halflings and I do expect them to slightly a bit more expensive, but that's the price of having good boy cavalry.
kodos wrote: they have, Ronnie explained some in a blog post, basically Brexit+Pandemic
Hm, he didn't really specify it was the Brexit and Pandemic...more like a general base price increase affecting all other companies in the same field as well.
he mentioned that the new shipping costs are insane and they are, to rent a container to ship stuff has increased by a lot because of the pandemic
Waaagh_Gonads wrote: This is an absolutely delightful army, would have made for a great Empire army in WHFB.
That's true. I was surprised to see the halflings with guns instead of the classical bows you tend to see them with. I wonder if League of Rhordia halflings units won't change because of that ?
Mantic Games's vision of halflings is closer to D&D rather than GW's (ie plump little guys) and they wear boots as well.
I'd like to see a size comparison picture to see how tall they really are. Next to a good old basilean man-at-arms would be nice.
the Halflings might be a result of the "don't chase GW" thing Ronnie talked about a while back, as well as their success with selling to the RPG market
and I guess the League will keep the current units while the Shire list will get others
and those making a nice Empire Army, well TOW is coming and the Moot was a thing (and doubt GW will make some anytime soon)
and I guess the League will keep the current units while the Shire list will get others
I was wondering because from what Mantic Games showed, it doesn't seem bows are an option in the plastic box. Ranged units seem only with guns. It seemed odd to me they'll keep the halfling bowmen in League of Rhordia if their official miniatures aren't armed with them.
Maybe it will be a metal / resin update pack sold separetely, like the Northern Alliance pack hunters ?
Otherwise, from League of Rhordia's fluff, it would make sense halflings would fight with guns, given they tend to be more advanced than "mere Kingdom of Men", IMHO.
But you're right, we'll see when they'll release the lists !
I like that they are the same height and the same proportion wise as the Goblins. Means if you want to mix and match, you can buy both kits and kitbash from one to the other. There is more than enough weapon options on both sprues to be able to do so.
Fenriswulf wrote: I like that they are the same height and the same proportion wise as the Goblins. Means if you want to mix and match, you can buy both kits and kitbash from one to the other. There is more than enough weapon options on both sprues to be able to do so.
I think it's possible to tinker something with 28 mm human arms holding weapons, like Warlord Miniatures plastic kits or even some GW kits (mostly the older Empire ones). Maybe the halfling plastic kit is compatible, but I'll have to wait for having the Mantic kits to see what's possible to do.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Now I can’t wait to find an excuse to use “Beta Halfling” as an insult.
I'll wait for the Sig-Halflings who ride lightning , no need to build an army just to have it invalidated by larger better proportioned halflings that were years in the making
Sarouan wrote: Thanks for the size comparison picture, Kodos ! Very interesting...I believe some specific human arms should be very compatible from what I can see !
just from the picture and my past trails with converting Mantic Goblins, the old (5th/6th) Edition Empire Bodies and Arms should fit well
also buying some Goblins (or bits) for plastic Bows should work
I wonder how the Wargames Atlantic Halflings compare in size to the Mantic Halflings. I know people are likely to want to incorporate the two, so it would be good to know. The swords on the Mantic Halflings are much better, but I do like the Wargames Atlantic halberds/polearms.
Fenriswulf wrote: I wonder how the Wargames Atlantic Halflings compare in size to the Mantic Halflings. I know people are likely to want to incorporate the two, so it would be good to know. The swords on the Mantic Halflings are much better, but I do like the Wargames Atlantic halberds/polearms.
I think the wargames atlantic halflings are a bit smaller in comparison.
If we look at these pictures and assume the base is both 20mm in side :
Spoiler:
...I'd say the Mantic Games halflings are sensibly bigger for their arms and bodies. A bit plumper as well, IMHO.
It should still be possible to match, but maybe the hands and arms will look a bit shorter next to their fellows using all Mantic parts.
Could be surely a good idea to try, though ! Maybe I'm completely wrong.
Fenriswulf wrote: I wonder how the Wargames Atlantic Halflings compare in size to the Mantic Halflings. I know people are likely to want to incorporate the two, so it would be good to know. The swords on the Mantic Halflings are much better, but I do like the Wargames Atlantic halberds/polearms.
I think the wargames atlantic halflings are a bit smaller in comparison.
If we look at these pictures and assume the base is both 20mm in side :
Spoiler:
...I'd say the Mantic Games halflings are sensibly bigger for their arms and bodies. A bit plumper as well, IMHO.
It should still be possible to match, but maybe the hands and arms will look a bit shorter next to their fellows using all Mantic parts.
Could be surely a good idea to try, though ! Maybe I'm completely wrong.
If the WGA ones are smaller, I might use them as conversion fodder for old school GW Goblins. Just add a few more odd bits to them and they could look like they've looted a lot of their kit from Empire soldiers or Halflings from the moot. Which fits in nicely with the force I am putting together.
Never been much of a fan of halflings. But these are fun. They have some cool themes, while still retaining some of what you'd expect halflings to be using. They don't go down the GW route of making halflings so obsessed with eating/cooking, that all their stuff seems to incorporate that. The artillery does seem sort of 'plain/normal' (a mortar, an organ gun...), but aside from that, I'm impressed, and want to get that iron pig, and the troll..., lawnmower..., thing?
kodos wrote: might be a hint what the new theme list is:
Spoiler:
Is that an orc, or a troll on that lion..., thing (is it a lion, or a warg with a mane?). It's cool though. My money's not on the halfling knight, but his doggy is gettin a good chomp in there.
I prefer the Wargames Atlantic halflings as I find the large head size of the Mantic ones make them look too much like kids (who have a larger head in proportion to their body). But tastes vary and I'm happy to see Mantic succeed.
and as WGA gives extra heads along with their extra heads replacing the mantic ones should be simple (even if you don't buy both spares should be simple enough to trade for or buy 2nd hand)
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: and as WGA gives extra heads along with their extra heads replacing the mantic ones should be simple (even if you don't buy both spares should be simple enough to trade for or buy 2nd hand)
WGA's Halfing Militia comes with 120 heads and 40 bodies, so you should without a doubt have a lot of spare heads if you buy them.
I was afraid the girls would be like the northern clansmen - having the same bodies than men but with just female heads. I'm glad to see there are specific bodies for them.
Feels like the sprues aren't exactly optimized and they could have added a few things like additionnal weapons / heads, or a command option, but I'm still glad with what I see there.
Took the mega-army, I should have fun with making units more typical even if heads will repeat themselves a bit. Not a big deal : in Kings of War, it's more a mass effect you're trying to have for your army. Using doubles / triples is pretty much common anyway if you want to keep it cheap.
Has anyone here in the US gotten their Armada Seas Aflame, Deck of Armada Magic cards, and/or any of the first set of fliers?
They (supposedly, per Mantic) shipped quite a while ago, but my FLGS hasn't gotten them, and their distributor (Alliance) hasn't either - with no estimated arrival/ shipping time either.
I am keen to play with my wee fliers, and crazy spells to zap each other with!
pancakeonions wrote: Has anyone here in the US gotten their Armada Seas Aflame, Deck of Armada Magic cards, and/or any of the first set of fliers?
They (supposedly, per Mantic) shipped quite a while ago, but my FLGS hasn't gotten them, and their distributor (Alliance) hasn't either - with no estimated arrival/ shipping time either.
I am keen to play with my wee fliers, and crazy spells to zap each other with!
I got multiples of all of them from Troll Horde. Arrived within a week or so of release.
I like they went the "half knight" way for their elite units.
As for the bowmen / thieves :
They look nice too ! Hooded heads fit perfectly.
Will take a couple of these packs when they'll get out. Can't wait for my mega-army to be shipped !
I believe the units would look especially cooler if you choose the right torsos / heads with the style of the unit : like all armored bodies for more elite troops and keeping the leather armor / clothes for ranged units. Keeping dogs' armored heads for the elite / melee units also help to really put the difference with the others. That's why I went for the mega-army. You sure can build with fewer kits, but that way, I can differenciate the units better. And I wouldn't mind building an all-female gunner regiment.
Maybe I'm old school, but I miss a command option so far. Sure, I can always scratch-build a standard bearer and a musician, but would have been nice to have a set of arms specifically for them as well.
pancakeonions wrote: Thanks. I still can't find the dwarven fliers anywhere online... Are those even out?
One of the designs wasn't received well, so they are being redone.
Do you know what kind of fliers there will be? Some copters or more like planes?
Sadly no.
There were zeppelins in the art though and that seemed like a popular idea,
Zeppelins would be great but after Halflings got their baloons they may want to make Dwarves fliers more different. Anyway I cannot wait to see what they will bring.
lord_blackfang wrote: "No gyrocopters" was a big Mantic hangup in the "we're not not-WHFB" phase. We'll see if they backtrack on that one.
I hope they will forget that and make a one. I would love to see a Warcraft 3 style gyro (one from the core game, not the one from the Frozen Throne, where they changed the name and its look).
Found an image a person uploaded online to a Facebook group I am in, showing the scale of the figures when put against their counterparts from other companies.
Left: Wargames Atlantic
Right: Mantic
Foreground: The Assault Group (same size as GW)
At the back: Warploque (it’s the same size as the WGA plastics)
So they're a bit too big to mix with WGA, but would combine nicely with the Mantic Goblins, if you're looking to do something with them.
I used GW Empire miniatures bitz - and while their arms and hands are a bit bigger, they ended up looking ok to me. I shortened outriders cloaks so that they are more fitting to halfling height.
I'm also working on a halfling pistolier, but I used the original arms and they look a bit thin with pistolier hands holding the guns.
I still have some old empire bitz from the time they were closer to 28 mm historical miniatures (Perry's boxes) and from the tests I have made, they look way more appropriate. So I believe 28 mm human scale is the right one for converting halflings.
Funnily enough, since the halfling mantic heads are so big, GW Empire heads are fairly coherent. Used a pistolier head with a big feather, it looks good with the others.
Feel free ! A warning, though, you may have to fill some gaps with greenstuff under the cloak. Otherwise, it hides well when you look from a specific angle.
round bases? Heresy! What is the world coming to!!!
They stand better if they are on a base, round or square.
I'm still at the stage of tests so far.
Otherwise, the characters and the Iron Pig included in the mega army are in this annoying Dungeon Saga-like PVC (even the bases !). Details are good, mind you, but I really hate to clean that material. Characters were already builded, only the big pig must be glued together.
Also, the Iron Pig is smaller than I thought it would be. Wouldn't recommand to buy it alone, IMHO it's not worth the price.
Building the plastic halflings (main reason I'm interested in them) is pretty straightforward, though it's good to say that some dog riders only fit with specific dogs with a thinner back. Indeed, their legs aren't spread the same length. You better not lose any head because their number fit exactly the number of bodies, no spare heads left !
Careful also for the guns, you have letters above the arms to tell you which one goes with which one. And the letters are very small, so it's easy to miss them.
Wrists are thin while forearms are thicker. It gives them a certain "plump" look with their round faces.
If you want to use more swords the same style of the box instead of hammers / axes / sickles, you can cut the top of the spears that are actually exactly like the sword blades (slightly longer, though). Just have to tinker the hilt a bit.
I still feel like the box lack options. Sure, we have spears, one handed weapons and guns...but it doesn't feel optimized (and we could have used spare heads ). Dogs take a lot of space, obviously...and one sprue is significantly smaller than the two others (the one with the rest of the dogs). Feels like a command option just for the look, spare heads or bows could have been put there.
Well, it still good enough, but there aren't that many variations to do. Only 5 different bodies for infantry (repeated twice for 10) and another 5 for riders (but you have to take into account you can't switch all five of the mounts, because of the difference of spread legs of the riders). Weapons and shields are also repeated twice. And exactly 15 different heads.
Pre orders for the 2022 Clash of Kings book have gone up.
This bumper edition of Mantic’s annual Kings of War update introduces two brand new army lists, a campaign with new scenarios, and a raft of new background information, new maps and artwork. Learn all about the halflings and the new army created by the Wicked Ones, harnessing the power of Halpi’s Rift.
The annual game updates bring a slew of changes to all existing armies, plus new magic, heroes and artefacts to deliver a big and exciting update to the game for the coming year.
But Ronnie warned us in his blog, so it makes it better, doesn't it ?
Otherwise, we have more halfling releases.
Keep the leather armored bodies for the poachers and the breastplated ones for the stalwarts, they'll look way better for sure.
Still, kinda makes me think they could have included these options on the plastic sprues instead of wasting space on the third one with dogs. Oh well, gotta make money.
Shadow Walker wrote:Anyone knows what this new abyssal army could be?
Theophony wrote:Is the cover suppossed to be an Orc boss on winged slasher?
Only rumors I know are of an Orc theme list, which IMO is pretty cool. We've also seen the silhouette for this big green lad before (in the summer?), mounted on like a wingless manticore cavalry thing.
Only rumors I know are of an Orc theme list, which IMO is pretty cool. We've also seen the silhouette for this big green lad before (in the summer?), mounted on like a wingless manticore cavalry thing.
Hopefully it will also mean new hard plastic orcs kits.
My guess would be some sort of Uber Orc list, basically Orcs that are tougher, stronger and nastier than regular Orcs, like LOTR Uruk-Hai or WH Black Orcs, being more elite than horde.
Esmer wrote: My guess would be some sort of Uber Orc list, basically Orcs that are tougher, stronger and nastier than regular Orcs, like LOTR Uruk-Hai or WH Black Orcs, being more elite than horde.
List might include some Abyssal options as well.
Prime-orcish warriors .
I have tons of Orcs that need painting and assembling
Counter Charge had Kyle P. on to talk COK22 (link), here're the highlights:
DarkBlack wrote:Kyle, Matt and Jeremy each gave thier 5 favourite changes.
Quick summary without all the details (want to leave you with a reason to give it a listen) Number 5: Kyle: Titans are getting a buff and 2 special rules are being added for titans. Matt: Spell caster levels matter. Jeremy: conditional inspiring is going away.
Number 4: Kyle: Arcane abilities and an arcane library coming. Matt: Formations are back, gives an example of a dwarf infantry formation. Jeremy: More playstyles becoming viable. Discussion on units like rangers becoming more viable.
Number 3: Kyle: More unlocks, both in ways units unlock (ogres) and new units (TK). Matt: Battle driller buff. Jeremy: New spells and artefacts, gives example.
Number 2: Kyle: Expanded keyword synergies, especially in formations. Matt: Also titans getting a buff. Jeremy: More auras (gives example). Discussion on how changes are “bang for buck”, design goal to aim for small changes in terms of rules for big effects. Discussion on how buffs are aimed at adding flavour and narrative.
Number 1: Kyle: “Returning favorites” from 2nd, confirms that the stampede is back as a unit upgrade. Matt: Also inspiring change. Jeremy: realising the “full promise of 3rd edition” Discussion on how everything is getting better with more flavour and fun; like the halfling list.
I'm not excited about formations, hoping they're both as thematic and as mediocre as possible, seeing how they warped the late 2E meta (or did nothing at all). Conditional inspiring going away is real cool (IIRC to replaced by just inspiring), opens up a number of heroes for consideration and makes game play a little less finicky.
I intensely dislike Formations. They've always had a negative impact in every game they've been tried.
I also dislike keywords in KoW specifically because they don't mesh at all with the freeform modeling aspect. Removing conditional Inspiring is a good step, but sounds like they're doubling down on keywords in other areas.
100% agree on formations being disastrous for composition in every game I've encountered them in. Themes in Warmachine 2E were the closest success, but those weren't really formations, more like rewards for playing with Less Good Things (or the best designed ones were, I'm willfully ignoring the themes that gathered together Obviously Good Things).
Speaking of being rewarded for thematic play, I'm still here for keywords in 3E, and for them being more developed. I basically already make my armies around thematic groups of units, so it's cool to be given something for thematic comp decisions.
My problem with keywords is when combined with open proxying that KoW is so beloved for you can end up with keywords not matching the models. For example all my low level EOD models are clearly mummies (TTcombat) but use Skeleton and Revenant profiles.
Sarouan wrote: I read all of this as "we keep complexifying KoW for no good reason".
The #1 complaint against KOW 2E that I heard when WHFB was nuked and the player base was scattered and looking for games to go to, was that it was 'too simple.' I continue to hear this leveled against KOW 3E by fence sitters looking for a new game. So I feel like there's a deserved perception that the market wants more complexity.
That said I'm not enthused about universal Titan buffs (some titans are BAD and need buffs, but some titans are VERY GOOD and do not need buffs, so how is this possibly going to balance out??), nor do I need increasingly more complex magic - which I realize is a contentious position, there are plenty of people who are pining away for a proper magic phase, perhaps like a certain worlde that was (where it was always pretty horribly unbalancing). And I've already said my piece about formations being a slippery slope towards meta stagnation.
Other than these things, I'm very much looking forward to the various ways that COK22 is looking to open up list building, and there are certainly a number of rough units that could use a polish.
AoS isn't simple, it's shallow. Those are different things. KoW is simple but deep and should stay that way. At this point it's too late to try being WHFB for the sake of grumpy GW vets, if T9A hasn't pleased them KoW can't either, and they will jump ship to TOW at the first opportunity anyway.
I would have preferred 2 books instead of 1, while the price point is fair for what you get, having to buy the CoK optional rules together with the army lists is a downside
for the formations, I liked the previous ones for my armies, as to get you into playing units you would not have used otherwise without being too strong, so don't expect them to be negative
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How is no one talking about the halfling hero on canigriff? (Pegapup?) What a great concept.
the Winged Aralez?, that one is worth the wings alone
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How is no one talking about the halfling hero on canigriff? (Pegapup?) What a great concept.
Regal Beagel Eagle
Give this poster a medal.
If it’s more of an ocean loving creature it could be a seagull beagle. The sound of a group of them together created a musical breakthrough in the late 1970s and early 1980s.
Sarouan wrote: I read all of this as "we keep complexifying KoW for no good reason".
The #1 complaint against KOW 2E that I heard when WHFB was nuked and the player base was scattered and looking for games to go to, was that it was 'too simple.' I continue to hear this leveled against KOW 3E by fence sitters looking for a new game. So I feel like there's a deserved perception that the market wants more complexity.
That said I'm not enthused about universal Titan buffs (some titans are BAD and need buffs, but some titans are VERY GOOD and do not need buffs, so how is this possibly going to balance out??), nor do I need increasingly more complex magic - which I realize is a contentious position, there are plenty of people who are pining away for a proper magic phase, perhaps like a certain worlde that was (where it was always pretty horribly unbalancing). And I've already said my piece about formations being a slippery slope towards meta stagnation.
Other than these things, I'm very much looking forward to the various ways that COK22 is looking to open up list building, and there are certainly a number of rough units that could use a polish.
Well Halflings are a step in the opposite direction for magic, with their super-special undercosted, cannot be countered wizard.
Boss Salvage wrote:Counter Charge had Kyle P. on to talk COK22 (link), here're the highlights:
Spoiler:
Kyle, Matt and Jeremy each gave thier 5 favourite changes.
Quick summary without all the details (want to leave you with a reason to give it a listen)
Number 5:
Kyle: Titans are getting a buff and 2 special rules are being added for titans.
Matt: Spell caster levels matter.
Jeremy: conditional inspiring is going away.
Number 4:
Kyle: Arcane abilities and an arcane library coming.
Matt: Formations are back, gives an example of a dwarf infantry formation.
Jeremy: More playstyles becoming viable.
Discussion on units like rangers becoming more viable.
Number 3:
Kyle: More unlocks, both in ways units unlock (ogres) and new units (TK).
Matt: Battle driller buff.
Jeremy: New spells and artefacts, gives example.
Number 2:
Kyle: Expanded keyword synergies, especially in formations.
Matt: Also titans getting a buff.
Jeremy: More auras (gives example).
Discussion on how changes are “bang for buck”, design goal to aim for small changes in terms of rules for big effects.
Discussion on how buffs are aimed at adding flavour and narrative.
Number 1:
Kyle: “Returning favorites” from 2nd, confirms that the stampede is back as a unit upgrade.
Matt: Also inspiring change.
Jeremy: realising the “full promise of 3rd edition”
Discussion on how everything is getting better with more flavour and fun; like the halfling list.
I'm not excited about formations, hoping they're both as thematic and as mediocre as possible, seeing how they warped the late 2E meta (or did nothing at all). Conditional inspiring going away is real cool (IIRC to replaced by just inspiring), opens up a number of heroes for consideration and makes game play a little less finicky.
That summary looks familiar.
Boss Salvage wrote:100% agree on formations being disastrous for composition in every game I've encountered them in. Themes in Warmachine 2E were the closest success, but those weren't really formations, more like rewards for playing with Less Good Things (or the best designed ones were, I'm willfully ignoring the themes that gathered together Obviously Good Things).
Speaking of being rewarded for thematic play, I'm still here for keywords in 3E, and for them being more developed. I basically already make my armies around thematic groups of units, so it's cool to be given something for thematic comp decisions.
Agreed. I would have preferred more keyword synergy instead of formations.
It was a popular request though.
Sarouan wrote: I read all of this as "we keep complexifying KoW for no good reason".
The #1 complaint against KOW 2E that I heard when WHFB was nuked and the player base was scattered and looking for games to go to, was that it was 'too simple.' I continue to hear this leveled against KOW 3E by fence sitters looking for a new game. So I feel like there's a deserved perception that the market wants more complexity.
That said I'm not enthused about universal Titan buffs (some titans are BAD and need buffs, but some titans are VERY GOOD and do not need buffs, so how is this possibly going to balance out??), nor do I need increasingly more complex magic - which I realize is a contentious position, there are plenty of people who are pining away for a proper magic phase, perhaps like a certain worlde that was (where it was always pretty horribly unbalancing). And I've already said my piece about formations being a slippery slope towards meta stagnation.
Other than these things, I'm very much looking forward to the various ways that COK22 is looking to open up list building, and there are certainly a number of rough units that could use a polish.
I would like to see KoW stay simple too.
More flavour is often requested and "blandness" is often cited as a reason that someone doesn't play.
By the sound of it flavour has been added without ruining the simplicity, after a lot of effort.
I am happy with magic as it is, but I see why people want more.
Titans are a bit unimpressive at the moment tbh, as long as they don't stomp models out of existence like gargantuan creatures in 7th 40K (including greater daemons that are only a little cheaper) I'll probably be ok with it,
I am inclined to trust that the rules will be good and it sounds like thought was applied.
At the very least not horrific and remedied soon enough.
I just pray it doesn't go into GW levels of stupid with the lack of balance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lord_blackfang wrote: AoS isn't simple, it's shallow. Those are different things. KoW is simple but deep and should stay that way. At this point it's too late to try being WHFB for the sake of grumpy GW vets, if T9A hasn't pleased them KoW can't either, and they will jump ship to TOW at the first opportunity anyway.
I consider simple and shallow to be the same things to me. I use the words as the same thing. A simple game to me is a shallow game. I don't use it to mean its mechanics are simple, because AOS has stupid complex rules in that every warscroll does similar things with different mechanics or names. Its still as deep as a bathtub though.
I consider simple and shallow to be the same things to me. I use the words as the same thing. A simple game to me is a shallow game. I don't use it to mean its mechanics are simple, because AOS has stupid complex rules in that every warscroll does similar things with different mechanics or names. Its still as deep as a bathtub though.
For myself, when I talk about KoW being "simple", it's always about the rule mechanism - it means they're easy to learn and apply, so the time you spend in game is more about strategy and tactics rather than trying to remember the rules right or arguing about the right interpretation.
Here, with CoK22, I feel like Mantic Games tried to put too much in it so that it has "value for the price". They're saying the core design is making small changes so that they don't have big consequences on the core rules, but from their "top 5" ? I feel like the issue is making too many small changes at once and not seeing how big an impact it can be on the core rules when applied at the same time. And it's just the first CoK...if they do that many for the first, what will they do for the next ? Expectations will naturally be high from the players and I bet the pressure to add at least as many changes as the first will be there as well. Which isn't a good game design from a player's point of view, to me - but a design from a seller's point of view.
Hoping I'm wrong. Anyway, so far, I'm waiting to see more and will stick with the core rules until I'm sure they didn't screw it up.
Re: Titans
It seems like a pointless category. It was introduced to support miniatures on bigger bases and I appreciate that, but the power level generally doesn't reflect it, it also feels like a loophole to unlock two monsters with one Horde becase they're split up in two categories. A lot of long/wide models are also short so it makes little sense for Titans to have more Height than Monsters. And the base didn't even get enlarged enough to hold the really big non-Mantic models it was intended to. Would have been better to make a general "exceptionally large Monsters" clause where you got, I dunno, +1 Attack and +1 Nerve for each extra inch of base size.
lord_blackfang wrote: Re: Titans
It seems like a pointless category. It was introduced to support miniatures on bigger bases and I appreciate that, but the power level generally doesn't reflect it, it also feels like a loophole to unlock two monsters with one Horde becase they're split up in two categories. A lot of long/wide models are also short so it makes little sense for Titans to have more Height than Monsters. And the base didn't even get enlarged enough to hold the really big non-Mantic models it was intended to. Would have been better to make a general "exceptionally large Monsters" clause where you got, I dunno, +1 Attack and +1 Nerve for each extra inch of base size.
But there's only one very specific instance when you can unlock a monster and a titan. In all other cases, you must choose to unlock a monster or a titan.
I consider simple and shallow to be the same things to me. I use the words as the same thing. A simple game to me is a shallow game. I don't use it to mean its mechanics are simple, because AOS has stupid complex rules in that every warscroll does similar things with different mechanics or names. Its still as deep as a bathtub though.
For myself, when I talk about KoW being "simple", it's always about the rule mechanism - it means they're easy to learn and apply, so the time you spend in game is more about strategy and tactics rather than trying to remember the rules right or arguing about the right interpretation.
Agree here.
Simple mechanics can add up to a game that involves meaningful and varied decision making (i.e. deep). The prime example is chess and KoW does it well too, but with more theme, flavour and fantasy.
It is also possible to make a complex game (there are a lot of rules and/or actions involved in playing) that is shallow (decisions are obvious or not meaningful).
Here, with CoK22, I feel like Mantic Games tried to put too much in it so that it has "value for the price". They're saying the core design is making small changes so that they don't have big consequences on the core rules, but from their "top 5" ? I feel like the issue is making too many small changes at once and not seeing how big an impact it can be on the core rules when applied at the same time.
I think that you misunderstood.
The idea is to make small changes that do have an impact. So trying to get desired results with as few written rules and changes as possible.
Like giving a character an aura to make units with a certain keyword more interesting.
And it's just the first CoK...if they do that many for the first, what will they do for the next ? Expectations will naturally be high from the players and I bet the pressure to add at least as many changes as the first will be there as well. Which isn't a good game design from a player's point of view, to me - but a design from a seller's point of view.
That would be bad.
As far as I can tell, the aim is to make a big improvement in the flavour and fantasy that sets KoW apart from chess and then go back to the usual tweaks and annual tournament season extras that is the norm for CoK.
lord_blackfang wrote:Re: Titans
It seems like a pointless category. It was introduced to support miniatures on bigger bases and I appreciate that, but the power level generally doesn't reflect it, it also feels like a loophole to unlock two monsters with one Horde becase they're split up in two categories. A lot of long/wide models are also short so it makes little sense for Titans to have more Height than Monsters. And the base didn't even get enlarged enough to hold the really big non-Mantic models it was intended to. Would have been better to make a general "exceptionally large Monsters" clause where you got, I dunno, +1 Attack and +1 Nerve for each extra inch of base size.
I think the aim with adding titans was to accommodate bigger models that Mantic was making.
The change in CoK seems to be so that the power level does reflect that.
Sorry for not quoting you over here, DarkBlack I appreciated your write up and this thread needed tending.
Having listened to the Counter Charge episode now, sounds like Titans are getting two rules (not specified which two), as well as some points drops. Dragons were included in this list of titans (which makes sense, since they are often or maybe always titans by category). Personally? I would have given them all Strider and Brutal, which yes, plenty of them already have one or even both of (looking at you, my trashy Coral Giant), but I get the sense they're getting straight up new rules.
Re: the two books thing, I work in publishing and it's really hard to get paper during the pandemic, on top of the difficulty of shipping your books from China if you're printing off shore (as it seems Mantic is). So two books would be more than double the logistic hell. And this isn't factoring in the costs for the two covers you'd need, which get quite a bit more work than interior pages, etc, etc. Oh, and also ignores whatever Mantic has to deal with thanks to Brexit.
I can see the reason behind, but with the way they used the CoK in the last Edition, having rules that stay in the game together with rules that are replaced each year in the same book is not the best in the long run
worst case would be to re-print the army lists in each CoK or make an expansion book next year so people who start that armies later don't need to by an outdated CoK to get them
Good point on the old COKs still somehow being relevant ... That seems bad, if they aren't reprinting at least the non-campaign changes? I could see Halpi's legends not being reprinted, but maybe the handful of rules change will be carried forward? Bummer to have to buy an old book for ~1 page of updates (I say, having bought the book new for ~1 page of updates).
I'm just looking into getting back into KoW. I've been mapping out army lists with no concept of the current META as I have been away long enough. What is the best army list app? Is there a cost to it, or is it a free list builder. I used one previously that had been free, but the last time i tried it was saying I needed an account?
https://mantic.easyarmy.com/ is what everybody uses. It's free still, but you do need to sign up for it. If you pay money you get added things, like printouts with rules text, ability to save more than one list, access to the halflings beta builder, etc.
Sorry for not quoting you over here, DarkBlack I appreciated your write up and this thread needed tending.
means I'm just poking fun. Saved me the trouble.
kodos wrote:I can see the reason behind, but with the way they used the CoK in the last Edition, having rules that stay in the game together with rules that are replaced each year in the same book is not the best in the long run
worst case would be to re-print the army lists in each CoK or make an expansion book next year so people who start that armies later don't need to by an outdated CoK to get them
The list will be on EasyArmy for those who need it.
I suspect that rules will carry over from year to year.
There is a lot of lore and such, apparently, so I doubt the lists and changes to rules will not be a lot of space in the next CoK.
Not to mention that those rules and lists will likely get tweaked too, so an updated version can be printed.
"less horde, meaner, faster orcs. Finally with large flying cav, more monsters. Think Varangur alpha strike. With a sprinkle of cool halfling like auras mechanics, they'll be really cool to play".
Also they come out this december, and have a new hard plastic Orc sprue with all resin monsters/characters/upgrade bits for all Orc variants.
Rathnard wrote:Some more info I picked up from the Clash of Kings UK Tournament livestream thus far. This is from memory so don’t come lynching me if I’m wrong, or missed something. :wink:
Goblins are getting a Fleabag-centric formation
The Formations are all specifically made to promote units/playstyles that are rarely taken their army. This is a departure from the 2nd edition formations, some of which just made great units even better. I think we all knew this already, but I thought I’d point it out nonetheless.
Two of the new rules are Slayer and Rampage. Both add some attacks (random or fixed) when fighting a unit type in melee. For Slayer it’s Large/Monstrous units, Monsters and Titans (IIRC). They didn’t elaborate on Rampage, but given the context I’m willing to bet it’s specific to regular infantry etc. They seemed to indicate that one or both of these rules were part of the rumoured buff to Titan units.
The Formations are all specifically made to promote units/playstyles that are rarely taken their army. This is a departure from the 2nd edition formations, some of which just made great units even better.
If they manage to hold the formations to just that, it's a great idea. Gives them a chance too boost units proven to be sub-par a bit faster without waiting for a new edition or completely updated list.
New Mantic orcs, good. Will be nice to see their own version of "Kruleboyz".
The Formations are all specifically made to promote units/playstyles that are rarely taken their army. This is a departure from the 2nd edition formations, some of which just made great units even better.
It's funny they say that for their version in CoK 2022, because that was also their claim for the 2nd edition formations.
But you know, they say they are doing it right this time, so why not believing them and acting like they never did this before ?
Illumini wrote: Wasn´t there a Herja + Fallen formation in 2nd?
Nope, there wasn't. Varangurs had a troll formation and another with raiders and wolves.
Also at that time, Herja was replaced by Magnilde (and nerfed hard ).
Yes, there was - in the 2019 CoK. The first (and extremely bad) version of Magnilde that you are thinking of came in the summer campaign of 2017. The 2019 CoK had Magnilde + 2 Fallen Hordes, all gaining Pathfinder, on the condition that they can't take allies.
In fact, this very formation, and Jesse's, may he rest in peace, memetastic Youtube reaction upon reading it, was how he - and by extension, Kyle - first became known in the KoW community. Which in turn - I presume - lead to them being employed by Mantic which in turn has made Kyle into one of the - in fact, I dare say, the - most famous Mantic representative.
In other news, here is a first glance on the new Orcs:
Spoiler:
Not a big fan, to be honest - too WoW, too AoS for me.
The big red ones might make for nice Ogres though.
Shadow Walker wrote: I need to see more photos, especially showing the new orcs from the front, to judge if I like them or not.
I mean, same Note that the big red things are apparently cyclopses, which is neat and goes with the forge god thing going on with the faction's background. Curious what will set them apart from other large infantry.
Shadow Walker wrote: I need to see more photos, especially showing the new orcs from the front, to judge if I like them or not.
I mean, same Note that the big red things are apparently cyclopses, which is neat and goes with the forge god thing going on with the faction's background. Curious what will set them apart from other large infantry.
Shadow Walker wrote: I need to see more photos, especially showing the new orcs from the front, to judge if I like them or not.
I mean, same Note that the big red things are apparently cyclopses, which is neat and goes with the forge god thing going on with the faction's background. Curious what will set them apart from other large infantry.
Shadow Walker wrote: I need to see more photos, especially showing the new orcs from the front, to judge if I like them or not.
I mean, same Note that the big red things are apparently cyclopses, which is neat and goes with the forge god thing going on with the faction's background. Curious what will set them apart from other large infantry.
Shadow Walker wrote: I need to see more photos, especially showing the new orcs from the front, to judge if I like them or not.
I mean, same Note that the big red things are apparently cyclopses, which is neat and goes with the forge god thing going on with the faction's background. Curious what will set them apart from other large infantry.
My money's on depth perception.
Wow racial stereotyping much, smh
Lol, yeah. I would hope the Cyclopes have an ability based on Krull, where they know the moment of their death.
Yes, there was - in the 2019 CoK. The first (and extremely bad) version of Magnilde that you are thinking of came in the summer campaign of 2017. The 2019 CoK had Magnilde + 2 Fallen Hordes, all gaining Pathfinder, on the condition that they can't take allies.
Ah, I stand corrected ! Forget the CoK 2019, indeed. Yet that version of Magnilde in the formation was nothing like the old Herja.
To be fair, the problem with Fallen was really shown when a french player had a good idea to come with a list built on them and let's say...a bit "optimized" to their UK tournament.
Hm, the new orcs look very bulky indeed. The red ones look very big - bigger than ogre size, IMHO. Clearly Monstrous Infantry (50 mm squares). But yeah, I'm waiting to see the front version.
The hammer focus is maybe because they are intended to have a link with blacksmiths ? Like forging the weapons of the Rift ?
While I am not a fan of what seems to be an aesthetic that draws inspiration from the likes of World of Warcraft, it is nice to see Mantic expand their ranges and their models be less of a WFB knock off.
The prevalence of hammers is nice, adds to the forge aspect that these Orcs draw heavily from.
Still, until we see more of these models it isn't too fair to judge them... but damn is that a lot of armour!
Mantic is sharing info across various community channels, including Master-Crafted (which is more or less direct from Mantic, as it's Kyle P's own):
One delicious nugget for every faction shared (from memory): - Basilean: Angels give Elite to Humans fighting with them in a combat - Dwarfs: Berserker Nv bump and Slayer (D6) - Elves: Archers to Ra 4+ / De 3+ - Northern Alliance: 2x Clansmen + Orlaf Formation - Forces of Nature: Wyrmriders with TC (2) on top of CS (1) (have new name, likely not in Trident Realm) - Ogres: Mammoth optional upgrade to Brutal (2), Very Inspiring, can give a unit in 12" Brutal (+1) - Trident Realm: Coral Giant gets D6+8 attaks, Slayer (D3 or D6) - Abyssal Dwarfs: Helfane points drop, maybe Rampage (D3 or D6) - Empire of Dust: 2E Wormriders are back! Large cav 24 attak grind unit. - Forces of the Abyss: Chroneas gets Me 3+, damage done in combat can heal friends nearby (up to 3) - Goblins: Living Legend Luggit horde (Brutal, WC, 30 attaks, -/22) - Nightstalkers: Portal of Despair gets Radiance of Life and I think an adjustment to its inspiring ability - Orcs: 2x Chariots + Chariot War Drum Formation - Undead: 2x Zombie Legions + Goreblight Formation - Brothermark: Dragon + 2x Knights Formation - Green Lady: Green Lady's Champion super individual (aka The Green Knight) - Free Dwarfs: Brocks pathfinder upgrade option - Salamanders: Firebrand makes Corsairs regular - Sylvan Kin: Archwraith to De 4+, gets pathfinder, has aura (optional?) to buff Boskwraiths - The Herd: Avatar of the Father is back! - Kingdoms of Men: The Monarch, customizable titan that can buff different things and fly if you want it to - League of Rhordia: Halflings Formation - Ratkin: Mutant Rat Fiend heal aura is +D3 to certain keywords around it - Ratkin Slaves: Chariot Legend that can overrun off of units ala individuals - Twilight Kin: Gladestalkers Me 3+ and always wound on 4+ in combat, at the cost of steady aim; apparently all three flavors of Gladestalkers are different for different kin - Varangur: Reavers WC (D3) and the Mark of the Reaper is different
- Tortured Souls get TC (1) - Well of Souls drops to 290 pts, gets Lifeleech (5) - Living Legend Abyssal Guard regiment with Rally (1), Elite (Heroes), Nv -/17, etc.
- Greater Fire Elemental gets Me 3+ (YES!) and an optional aura (Salamander only) - Slasher gets 12 attaks and an optional aura (Gekkotah only) - Living Legend non-flying CLOFD (YES!)
saves me digging out the photos thanks
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I appreciated your write up and this thread needed tending.
