[Kings of War] Mantic Fantasy News & Rumors

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**Theophony**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How is no one talking about the halfling hero on canigriff? (Pegapup?) What a great concept.

Regal Beagel Eagle

**lord_blackfang**

Even closer to Falkor than the regular Aralez

**kodos**

I would have preferred 2 books instead of 1, while the price point is fair for what you get, having to buy the CoK optional rules together with the army lists is a downside

for the formations, I liked the previous ones for my armies, as to get you into playing units you would not have used otherwise without being too strong, so don't expect them to be negative

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How is no one talking about the halfling hero on canigriff? (Pegapup?) What a great concept.

the Winged Aralez?, that one is worth the wings alone

**BobtheInquisitor**

Theophony wrote:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How is no one talking about the halfling hero on canigriff? (Pegapup?) What a great concept.

Regal Beagel Eagle

Give this poster a medal.

**Theophony**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Theophony wrote:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How is no one talking about the halfling hero on canigriff? (Pegapup?) What a great concept.

Regal Beagel Eagle

Give this poster a medal.

If it’s more of an ocean loving creature it could be a seagull beagle. The sound of a group of them together created a musical breakthrough in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

**BobtheInquisitor**

I remember. One of them had a girlfriend who was a bird lawyer for charity, Pro Bono Dodo Yoko Ono.

**Baragash**

Boss Salvage wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
I read all of this as "we keep complexifying KoW for no good reason".
The #1 complaint against KOW 2E that I heard when WHFB was nuked and the player base was scattered and looking for games to go to, was that it was 'too simple.' I continue to hear this leveled against KOW 3E by fence sitters looking for a new game. So I feel like there's a deserved perception that the market wants more complexity.

That said I'm not enthused about universal Titan buffs (some titans are BAD and need buffs, but some titans are VERY GOOD and do not need buffs, so how is this possibly going to balance out??), nor do I need increasingly more complex magic - which I realize is a contentious position, there are plenty of people who are pining away for a proper magic phase, perhaps like a certain worlde that was (where it was always pretty horribly unbalancing). And I've already said my piece about formations being a slippery slope towards meta stagnation.

Other than these things, I'm very much looking forward to the various ways that COK22 is looking to open up list building, and there are certainly a number of rough units that could use a polish.

Well Halflings are a step in the opposite direction for magic, with their super-special undercosted, cannot be countered wizard.

**DarkBlack**

Boss Salvage wrote:Counter Charge had Kyle P. on to talk COK22 (link), here're the highlights:

Spoiler:

Kyle, Matt and Jeremy each gave thier 5 favourite changes.

Quick summary without all the details (want to leave you with a reason to give it a listen)
Number 5:
Kyle: Titans are getting a buff and 2 special rules are being added for titans.
Matt: Spell caster levels matter.
Jeremy: conditional inspiring is going away.

Number 4:
Kyle: Arcane abilities and an arcane library coming.
Matt: Formations are back, gives an example of a dwarf infantry formation.
Jeremy: More playstyles becoming viable.
Discussion on units like rangers becoming more viable.

Number 3:
Kyle: More unlocks, both in ways units unlock (ogres) and new units (TK).
Matt: Battle driller buff.
Jeremy: New spells and artefacts, gives example.

Number 2:
Kyle: Expanded keyword synergies, especially in formations.
Matt: Also titans getting a buff.
Jeremy: More auras (gives example).
Discussion on how changes are “bang for buck”, design goal to aim for small changes in terms of rules for big effects.
Discussion on how buffs are aimed at adding flavour and narrative.

Number 1:
Kyle: “Returning favorites” from 2nd, confirms that the stampede is back as a unit upgrade.
Matt: Also inspiring change.
Jeremy: realising the “full promise of 3rd edition”
Discussion on how everything is getting better with more flavour and fun; like the halfling list.
I'm not excited about formations, hoping they're both as thematic and as mediocre as possible, seeing how they warped the late 2E meta (or did nothing at all). Conditional inspiring going away is real cool (IIRC to replaced by just inspiring), opens up a number of heroes for consideration and makes game play a little less finicky.

That summary looks familiar.

Boss Salvage wrote:100% agree on formations being disastrous for composition in every game I've encountered them in. Themes in Warmachine 2E were the closest success, but those weren't really formations, more like rewards for playing with Less Good Things (or the best designed ones were, I'm willfully ignoring the themes that gathered together Obviously Good Things).

Speaking of being rewarded for thematic play, I'm still here for keywords in 3E, and for them being more developed. I basically already make my armies around thematic groups of units, so it's cool to be given something for thematic comp decisions.

Agreed. I would have preferred more keyword synergy instead of formations.
It was a popular request though.

Boss Salvage wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
I read all of this as "we keep complexifying KoW for no good reason".
The #1 complaint against KOW 2E that I heard when WHFB was nuked and the player base was scattered and looking for games to go to, was that it was 'too simple.' I continue to hear this leveled against KOW 3E by fence sitters looking for a new game. So I feel like there's a deserved perception that the market wants more complexity.

That said I'm not enthused about universal Titan buffs (some titans are BAD and need buffs, but some titans are VERY GOOD and do not need buffs, so how is this possibly going to balance out??), nor do I need increasingly more complex magic - which I realize is a contentious position, there are plenty of people who are pining away for a proper magic phase, perhaps like a certain worlde that was (where it was always pretty horribly unbalancing). And I've already said my piece about formations being a slippery slope towards meta stagnation.

Other than these things, I'm very much looking forward to the various ways that COK22 is looking to open up list building, and there are certainly a number of rough units that could use a polish.

I would like to see KoW stay simple too.
More flavour is often requested and "blandness" is often cited as a reason that someone doesn't play.
By the sound of it flavour has been added without ruining the simplicity, after a lot of effort.
I am happy with magic as it is, but I see why people want more.
Titans are a bit unimpressive at the moment tbh, as long as they don't stomp models out of existence like gargantuan creatures in 7th 40K (including greater daemons that are only a little cheaper) I'll probably be ok with it,

I am inclined to trust that the rules will be good and it sounds like thought was applied.
At the very least not horrific and remedied soon enough.

**auticus**

I just pray it doesn't go into GW levels of stupid with the lack of balance.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

lord_blackfang wrote:
AoS isn't simple, it's shallow. Those are different things. KoW is simple but deep and should stay that way. At this point it's too late to try being WHFB for the sake of grumpy GW vets, if T9A hasn't pleased them KoW can't either, and they will jump ship to TOW at the first opportunity anyway.

I consider simple and shallow to be the same things to me. I use the words as the same thing. A simple game to me is a shallow game. I don't use it to mean its mechanics are simple, because AOS has stupid complex rules in that every warscroll does similar things with different mechanics or names. Its still as deep as a bathtub though.

**Sarouan**

auticus wrote:

I consider simple and shallow to be the same things to me. I use the words as the same thing. A simple game to me is a shallow game. I don't use it to mean its mechanics are simple, because AOS has stupid complex rules in that every warscroll does similar things with different mechanics or names. Its still as deep as a bathtub though.

For myself, when I talk about KoW being "simple", it's always about the rule mechanism - it means they're easy to learn and apply, so the time you spend in game is more about strategy and tactics rather than trying to remember the rules right or arguing about the right interpretation.

Here, with CoK22, I feel like Mantic Games tried to put too much in it so that it has "value for the price". They're saying the core design is making small changes so that they don't have big consequences on the core rules, but from their "top 5" ? I feel like the issue is making too many small changes at once and not seeing how big an impact it can be on the core rules when applied at the same time. And it's just the first CoK...if they do that many for the first, what will they do for the next ? Expectations will naturally be high from the players and I bet the pressure to add at least as many changes as the first will be there as well. Which isn't a good game design from a player's point of view, to me - but a design from a seller's point of view.

Hoping I'm wrong. Anyway, so far, I'm waiting to see more and will stick with the core rules until I'm sure they didn't screw it up.

**lord_blackfang**

Re: Titans
It seems like a pointless category. It was introduced to support miniatures on bigger bases and I appreciate that, but the power level generally doesn't reflect it, it also feels like a loophole to unlock two monsters with one Horde becase they're split up in two categories. A lot of long/wide models are also short so it makes little sense for Titans to have more Height than Monsters. And the base didn't even get enlarged enough to hold the really big non-Mantic models it was intended to. Would have been better to make a general "exceptionally large Monsters" clause where you got, I dunno, +1 Attack and +1 Nerve for each extra inch of base size.

**sukura636**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Re: Titans
It seems like a pointless category. It was introduced to support miniatures on bigger bases and I appreciate that, but the power level generally doesn't reflect it, it also feels like a loophole to unlock two monsters with one Horde becase they're split up in two categories. A lot of long/wide models are also short so it makes little sense for Titans to have more Height than Monsters. And the base didn't even get enlarged enough to hold the really big non-Mantic models it was intended to. Would have been better to make a general "exceptionally large Monsters" clause where you got, I dunno, +1 Attack and +1 Nerve for each extra inch of base size.

But there's only one very specific instance when you can unlock a monster and a titan. In all other cases, you must choose to unlock a monster or a titan.

**DarkBlack**

Sarouan wrote:
auticus wrote:

I consider simple and shallow to be the same things to me. I use the words as the same thing. A simple game to me is a shallow game. I don't use it to mean its mechanics are simple, because AOS has stupid complex rules in that every warscroll does similar things with different mechanics or names. Its still as deep as a bathtub though.

For myself, when I talk about KoW being "simple", it's always about the rule mechanism - it means they're easy to learn and apply, so the time you spend in game is more about strategy and tactics rather than trying to remember the rules right or arguing about the right interpretation.

Agree here.
Simple mechanics can add up to a game that involves meaningful and varied decision making (i.e. deep). The prime example is chess and KoW does it well too, but with more theme, flavour and fantasy.

It is also possible to make a complex game (there are a lot of rules and/or actions involved in playing) that is shallow (decisions are obvious or not meaningful).

Here, with CoK22, I feel like Mantic Games tried to put too much in it so that it has "value for the price". They're saying the core design is making small changes so that they don't have big consequences on the core rules, but from their "top 5" ? I feel like the issue is making too many small changes at once and not seeing how big an impact it can be on the core rules when applied at the same time.

I think that you misunderstood.
The idea is to make small changes that do have an impact. So trying to get desired results with as few written rules and changes as possible.
Like giving a character an aura to make units with a certain keyword more interesting.

And it's just the first CoK...if they do that many for the first, what will they do for the next ? Expectations will naturally be high from the players and I bet the pressure to add at least as many changes as the first will be there as well. Which isn't a good game design from a player's point of view, to me - but a design from a seller's point of view.

That would be bad.
As far as I can tell, the aim is to make a big improvement in the flavour and fantasy that sets KoW apart from chess and then go back to the usual tweaks and annual tournament season extras that is the norm for CoK.

lord_blackfang wrote:Re: Titans
It seems like a pointless category. It was introduced to support miniatures on bigger bases and I appreciate that, but the power level generally doesn't reflect it, it also feels like a loophole to unlock two monsters with one Horde becase they're split up in two categories. A lot of long/wide models are also short so it makes little sense for Titans to have more Height than Monsters. And the base didn't even get enlarged enough to hold the really big non-Mantic models it was intended to. Would have been better to make a general "exceptionally large Monsters" clause where you got, I dunno, +1 Attack and +1 Nerve for each extra inch of base size.

I think the aim with adding titans was to accommodate bigger models that Mantic was making.
The change in CoK seems to be so that the power level does reflect that.

**Boss Salvage**

DarkBlack wrote:
That summary looks familiar.

Sorry for not quoting you over here, DarkBlack

I appreciated your write up and this thread needed tending.

Having listened to the Counter Charge episode now, sounds like Titans are getting two rules (not specified which two), as well as some points drops. Dragons were included in this list of titans (which makes sense, since they are often or maybe always titans by category). Personally? I would have given them all Strider and Brutal, which yes, plenty of them already have one or even both of (looking at you, my trashy Coral Giant), but I get the sense they're getting straight up new rules.

Re: the two books thing, I work in publishing and it's really hard to get paper during the pandemic, on top of the difficulty of shipping your books from China if you're printing off shore (as it seems Mantic is). So two books would be more than double the logistic hell. And this isn't factoring in the costs for the two covers you'd need, which get quite a bit more work than interior pages, etc, etc. Oh, and also ignores whatever Mantic has to deal with thanks to Brexit.

**kodos**

I can see the reason behind, but with the way they used the CoK in the last Edition, having rules that stay in the game together with rules that are replaced each year in the same book is not the best in the long run

worst case would be to re-print the army lists in each CoK or make an expansion book next year so people who start that armies later don't need to by an outdated CoK to get them

**Boss Salvage**

Good point on the old COKs still somehow being relevant ... That seems bad, if they aren't reprinting at least the non-campaign changes? I could see Halpi's legends not being reprinted, but maybe the handful of rules change will be carried forward? Bummer to have to buy an old book for ~1 page of updates (I say, having bought the book new for ~1 page of updates).

**Theophony**

I'm just looking into getting back into KoW. I've been mapping out army lists with no concept of the current META as I have been away long enough. What is the best army list app? Is there a cost to it, or is it a free list builder. I used one previously that had been free, but the last time i tried it was saying I needed an account?

Thanks

**Boss Salvage**

https://mantic.easyarmy.com/ is what everybody uses. It's free still, but you do need to sign up for it. If you pay money you get added things, like printouts with rules text, ability to save more than one list, access to the halflings beta builder, etc.

**DarkBlack**

Boss Salvage wrote:
DarkBlack wrote:
That summary looks familiar.
Sorry for not quoting you over here, DarkBlack I appreciated your write up and this thread needed tending.

means I'm just poking fun. Saved me the trouble.

kodos wrote:I can see the reason behind, but with the way they used the CoK in the last Edition, having rules that stay in the game together with rules that are replaced each year in the same book is not the best in the long run

worst case would be to re-print the army lists in each CoK or make an expansion book next year so people who start that armies later don't need to by an outdated CoK to get them

The list will be on EasyArmy for those who need it.
I suspect that rules will carry over from year to year.
There is a lot of lore and such, apparently, so I doubt the lists and changes to rules will not be a lot of space in the next CoK.
Not to mention that those rules and lists will likely get tweaked too, so an updated version can be printed.

**Esmer**

So the new evil faction are called the "Rift Forged Orcs" - my guess, it will be an Orc theme list with some additional Abyssal units.

**lord_blackfang**

From FB

"less horde, meaner, faster orcs. Finally with large flying cav, more monsters. Think Varangur alpha strike. With a sprinkle of cool halfling like auras mechanics, they'll be really cool to play".
Also they come out this december, and have a new hard plastic Orc sprue with all resin monsters/characters/upgrade bits for all Orc variants.

**Maccwar**

We got a summary of the new faction at Clash of Kings on the Saturday evening. The above snippet seems about right.

We were shown some renders of the infantry kit along with some built and painted models. IIRC heavily armoured orcs with large hammers.

Winged and wingless manticores were mentioned.

Available for order from December IIRC.

**lord_blackfang**

So, like, Chaos Ironjaws?

**kodos**

more like Evil Stormcast

**auticus**

Hmmm that is very interesting indeed.

**Shadow Walker**

Shadow Walker wrote:

Hopefully it will also mean new hard plastic orcs kits.

Looks like I was right after all

**Boss Salvage**

Another repost from the KOW Forum:

Rathnard wrote:Some more info I picked up from the Clash of Kings UK Tournament livestream thus far. This is from memory so don’t come lynching me if I’m wrong, or missed something. :wink:

Goblins are getting a Fleabag-centric formation

The Formations are all specifically made to promote units/playstyles that are rarely taken their army. This is a departure from the 2nd edition formations, some of which just made great units even better. I think we all knew this already, but I thought I’d point it out nonetheless.

Two of the new rules are Slayer and Rampage. Both add some attacks (random or fixed) when fighting a unit type in melee. For Slayer it’s Large/Monstrous units, Monsters and Titans (IIRC). They didn’t elaborate on Rampage, but given the context I’m willing to bet it’s specific to regular infantry etc. They seemed to indicate that one or both of these rules were part of the rumoured buff to Titan units.

**Zywus**

The Formations are all specifically made to promote units/playstyles that are rarely taken their army. This is a departure from the 2nd edition formations, some of which just made great units even better.

If they manage to hold the formations to just that, it's a great idea. Gives them a chance too boost units proven to be sub-par a bit faster without waiting for a new edition or completely updated list.

@Boss Salvage
Is there a KOW forum again?

**DarkBlack**

The Kings of War forum is fan made and supported.

https://www.kowforum.com/

**kodos**

now we hope that resin upgrades are not Mantic Shop exclusives and/or we see a sale of old Orcs coming to get the weapon bits