Honestly I'm more surprised that none of the factions that stuck in my mind as being specifically called out as having a strong naval presence in the lore are in the first wave (Elves and Salamanders, plus obviously Trident Realm)
- Trident Realm, because sea monsters
- Varangur, Viking raider fleet with little ranged combat but masters at boarding
- Undead, because ghost pirates are a classic trope. Also would work with like half of the Dreadfleet models
Matt was on the Counter Charge podcast and talked about what factions would/wouldn't be getting fleets. Unforuntatly Undead are on the "not" list, since they're not likely to take to the seas in the Mantic world. Similarly, Ogres are unlikely to get a fleet.
We may see individual mercenary ships for them, though.
Varangur would make sense. And Matt talked about how Trident Realms would be difficult, since an underwater faction's most obvious tactics would just be "attack from underneath," which doesn't make for fun gameplay or good visuals.
Hell with Varangur... I want the Northern Alliance for my Viking aesthetic at sea! Maybe big ships carved with magical-ice mastheads, etc...
- Trident Realm, because sea monsters
- Varangur, Viking raider fleet with little ranged combat but masters at boarding
- Undead, because ghost pirates are a classic trope. Also would work with like half of the Dreadfleet models
Matt was on the Counter Charge podcast and talked about what factions would/wouldn't be getting fleets. Unforuntatly Undead are on the "not" list, since they're not likely to take to the seas in the Mantic world.
- Trident Realm, because sea monsters
- Varangur, Viking raider fleet with little ranged combat but masters at boarding
- Undead, because ghost pirates are a classic trope. Also would work with like half of the Dreadfleet models
Matt was on the Counter Charge podcast and talked about what factions would/wouldn't be getting fleets. Unforuntatly Undead are on the "not" list, since they're not likely to take to the seas in the Mantic world.
This makes Captain LeChuck sad.
Aesthetic or not, my EoD are going to be as close to Monkey Island Lechuck crew as possible. I can't imagine not making the attempt and then just pouring a pot of Hexwraith Flame over top!
It's great to see the Kraken added to the Armada pre-order page, but can you confirm this won't be a walking, on-land Kraken (and the text description looks like it may still be for Kings of War)? Will they make sure its bottom half is below the sea?
Would love to get it, but if it's hovering above the waves - not so much!
- Trident Realm, because sea monsters
- Varangur, Viking raider fleet with little ranged combat but masters at boarding
- Undead, because ghost pirates are a classic trope. Also would work with like half of the Dreadfleet models
Matt was on the Counter Charge podcast and talked about what factions would/wouldn't be getting fleets. Unforuntatly Undead are on the "not" list, since they're not likely to take to the seas in the Mantic world. Similarly, Ogres are unlikely to get a fleet.
We may see individual mercenary ships for them, though.
Varangur would make sense. And Matt talked about how Trident Realms would be difficult, since an underwater faction's most obvious tactics would just be "attack from underneath," which doesn't make for fun gameplay or good visuals.
So no Ogres or Undead? My two KoW armies. Guess this game won't tie into KoW games very well for me. Meh.
I can understand it for ogres, they'd need huge expensive resin ships, but undead? Kinda the obvious choice isn't it?
I’ve ordered 2 regiments from Wayland and I have 75 Shieldwolf Goblins so I’m hoping they are similar sizes and parts can be swapped around they both have flat arm connectors. At least all Mantics Goblins get quivers and there’s a few firing arms for the bows.
I also have 15 Oathmark Wolf riders that I might put Mantic Goblin heads and arms on if they are a similar size. Bit more work for that as Wolf riders have necks on the body and Mantics have necks on the head so cutting and filing required.
Those goblins look great. I really like the long droopy nose aesthetic they went with for their goblins. It looks like a very useful kit with a lot of extra pieces.
Those goblins look really good, definitely more of an old-school fantasy feel about them. Hopefully they are better made than the old Mantic golbins as they were some of the worst miniatures I have ever put together!
I see Armada is up for pre-order now both on the Mantic store (which is doing a few bundles) and from independent stores. In the UK, Wayland and Firestorm Games seem to have a good 15-20% discount level with free shipping which is pretty good.
I like the look of those ratkin. But like with the gobbos, I don't know why they're cheaping out on variety. There's just 5 sculpts of every item repeated twice. I don't understand the point of tooling two sprues when everything is duplicated. Either make the full 10 different dudes or save money and just tool one sprue without repeats?
There's a lot to like in goblins - but their arm muscles are really weird.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I hope the naval game does well - but in the short term, what I need to know is how it scales with DREADFLEET. They look too big, but I'm not sure.
kestral wrote: There's a lot to like in goblins - but their arm muscles are really weird.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I hope the naval game does well - but in the short term, what I need to know is how it scales with DREADFLEET. They look too big, but I'm not sure.
Straczynski (B5 fame) did a ton of the episodes and took it into a non-childish direction. The toys were great: small vehicles with lots of options weapons, saws, guns, hooks, etc. The basic plot was that the Monster Minds (plant monsters) wanted to rule everythings...with plants. The Lightning League opposed them.
Great nostalgia, and the vehicles would look great as minis.
While we are on that topic, I should like to see M.A.S.K. and Ulysses 31 make a comeback.
Can we start having a collection to get this game made?
I was watchign this. He was talking about a load of IPs he'd love to amke games for, but admitte afterwards it was pie in the sky thinking and none of them would ever happen as the market would be too niche.
Uncharted Seas is around 1/600 as will Armada. So Uncharted Seas and Armada ships should look OK next to each other, if the differing art styles don't bother you.
Dreadfleet looks OK too. I have a bunch of Black Seas and Oak and Iron (also same/similar scale) and they look great alongside the Dreadfleet ships. In particular, the undead frigate Shadewraith looks awesome next to the 1/700 Black Seas ships (and 1/600 Oak and Iron)
The Big ships from Dreadfleet will probably look great as the XL ships from Armada
pancakeonions wrote: Uncharted Seas is around 1/600 as will Armada. So Uncharted Seas and Armada ships should look OK next to each other, if the differing art styles don't bother you.
Dreadfleet looks OK too. I have a bunch of Black Seas and Oak and Iron (also same/similar scale) and they look great alongside the Dreadfleet ships. In particular, the undead frigate Shadewraith looks awesome next to the 1/700 Black Seas ships (and 1/600 Oak and Iron)
The Big ships from Dreadfleet will probably look great as the XL ships from Armada
Sorry, I haven't been able to keep up on the podcasts. Is there any idea of the next fleets?
None of the starter ones really appeal to me, but the game itself does.
I think all we know is Humans and Orcs now, with Dwarves and Empire of Dust in Q1 (along with the XL Human and Orc ships).
There was mention of undead and trident realm in one of the podcasts I listened to (counter charge with Matt Gilbert, I think!), but no confirmation that they'd be next (just that they'd be kind of hard to do without falling into tropes they'd prefer to avoid). In one video (maybe the intro video?), I think there was a picture of a Nightstalker, so I bet they'll be in the mix sooner rather than later.
Hammerfist looks so much better in the concept art with flails instead of fists. I guess they didn't feel confident casting weight-bearing chains in resin.
Stillnot sure about the Orc ships - would have prefered (still hoping) for a big Orc ship able to fire huge grappling hooks like the World Eaters flagship in the Heresy.
kodos wrote: We know that there 4 more factions in play testing now and one of them is Kingdoms of Men
KoM were already tested alongside the first 4 fleets as a Black Seas-style baseline.
Interesting. Any thoughts of how KoM will add fantasy elements to a Black Seas baseline? Because it seems like the Basileans fill that notch.
Or are you just saying that KoM was the control group for testing and we may not see them as a fleet. And what about the League of Rhordia?
lord_blackfang wrote: Hammerfist looks so much better in the concept art with flails instead of fists. I guess they didn't feel confident casting weight-bearing chains in resin.
Maybe we'll get those as a upgrade kit? 3d printing could also probably make the flails a reality.
Once engaged, the prow of the Khopeshii acts like a boarding ramp, allowing the Revenants to fight their way aboard the enemy vessel, slaughtering all in their path.
Those are pretty nice ships. It does bother me that all detail seems to be placed on top of the hull rather than being a part of it. See the oar ports. They're not sunk into the hull but raised out of it (also they were copy pasted on the ships by someone with Parkinsons). Same with cannon, on Basilean ships too, they never look as something sticking through the wall from inside the ship, they're just nozzles glued to the flat outside.
As far as static prows doubling as boarding planks, seems fairly legit thanks to that overhang:
Ram a ship abeam then shove your undead minions up and over the prow, where they plummet straight down to the enemy deck, three-point land, then stand up menacingly, ready to murder the living. Profit.
As Boss Savage shows if your not worried about falling damage its safer to drop onto an enemy deck from above,
that way they enemy cant fight their way onto your ship via your plank like they could it if was a simple flat affair. Of course if things go wrong the undead who have boarded the enemy will be lost if the their ship sails away, but who cares.
Living sailors with opinions and a sense of self preservation would be far less happy with that sort of situation though
infinite_array wrote: Or are you just saying that KoM was the control group for testing and we may not see them as a fleet. And what about the League of Rhordia?
Sort of a control group to start with, but they still get their own fleet rules, captains and upgrades. We will do the cards so people can use their Black Seas ships. If there is enough demand we will look at maybe new resin bits for the warlord ships for example.
The LoR is a landlocked nation in the middle of the Ardovikian Plain...
Already preordered a copy to get started with! Mostly though I want Trident Realms, that’d be great and certainly bring a unique element to the whole game.
Also, I would 100% be down for Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors!
infinite_array wrote: Or are you just saying that KoM was the control group for testing and we may not see them as a fleet. And what about the League of Rhordia?
Sort of a control group to start with, but they still get their own fleet rules, captains and upgrades. We will do the cards so people can use their Black Seas ships. If there is enough demand we will look at maybe new resin bits for the warlord ships for example.
The LoR is a landlocked nation in the middle of the Ardovikian Plain...
Makes sense. It'll be interesting to see how well the Basilean ships scale against the Black Seas minis.
And feel free to steal my idea of a halfling mercenary ship that buffs allied ships from their expansive galley or attacks enemy ships with their hot pot catapults!
lord_blackfang wrote: Last week's Oglaf webcomic has some good ideas about boarding planks, actually.
You are so right! Totally forgot about that.
In other personal Armada revelations, I'm weirdly most interested in Orcs I think, on account of the toothy ship mostly, and that I know my clubmate who is most likely to want to play the game is also an EOD player, so unless we actually want a ram-filled civil war ...
I know it’s off in the future, but the inclusion of the Trident Realms potentially expands the game’s scope a bit - which is cool. By expanding into Trident Realms we get monsters and monstrous ships. It adds a whole new element to an already cool naval warfare game.
For example, Mantic could release an under the waves and in the skies supplement. It could have sea monster and flying monster rules in it. In addition, it could build on those rules with fleets for Trident Realms and something like Goblin Sky Pirates. That way the supplement adds 2 new armies but is also interesting to all players because it adds things like krakens and dragons.
Really liking this batrep so far, but man... in a game where precision measuring is really critical, all these random nudges of models/terrain is killing me. :-p
Really liking the look of this one (and was actually poking around Vanguard and that looks fun too). Those Empire of Dust ships are pretty cool.
Unfortunately I'll probably have to pass unless one of my buddies decides to hop on, as I don't want to end up with yet another game that no one I know is interested in.
Yeah. I already have that with Dreadball, and Dropfleet.
Deadzone is rarely played and I bought enough to hit Warpath levels really, been slowly selling down the Veermyn back to DZ levels.
Thanks for the batrep - handy to get an idea of mechanics.
Thoughts:
Pre-mesuring at all times - excellent
Similar movement to many of the other game familiar with - nice
Ship bases - big issue with Uncharted Seas so this is good.
Simple mechanics - so far although shooting is a bit finicky like with Uncharted in terms of channels of firing.
The wind direction based initiative is...odd - not sure about it, but interesting
Collisions / Rams look deadily - So you can fire at any time you could fire - is there a penalty for snap firing (firing as the guns bear)?
Ships can take quite a bit of damage
Boarding seems good - again an issue with Uncharted.
Board seems small for scale of movement
No bonuses for capturing ships?
in a game where precision measuring is really critical, all these random nudges of models/terrain is killing me
Another reason pre-measuring is great as you know what the range was
No, not yet. There's been more than enough to to to get this first stuff out the door! Working on loads more stuff for next year though already There's already an Armada RC working with me.
Look like fairly standard representations of ironclads. Less guns, but plenty of armor and steam powered movement. Cool to see that they get grappling hooks to reel enemy ships in.
Love the rock plating. The same-y silhouettes and Mantic's propensity to put a bearded face on anything dwarf a little less. Makes me think the ships are paddled by stumpy arms and legs beneath the waterline.
Lucas Blackwolf wrote: Love the rock plating. The same-y silhouettes and Mantic's propensity to put a bearded face on anything dwarf a little less. Makes me think the ships are paddled by stumpy arms and legs beneath the waterline.
Totally valid criticism, but you just made me love them even more.
I just ordered the Black Seas Terrors of the Deep. I know they won't have any rules in the game (yet) but figured that it would give me something to paint while I'm waiting and they'll look pretty awesome on the table as scenery.
The Terrors of the Deep set that I ordered arrived yesterday. They are beautiful models. I would totally recommend them as terrain (or mobile obstacles!) even if the initial Armada rulebook doesn’t have rules for them.
As a side note, someone on this thread mentioned a Goblin Aircraft Carrier. That’s a great idea. I mentioned the idea of Goblin Sky Pirates - I was picturing dirigibles. But I’m not familiar enough with the KoW goblin lore to know if either of those suggestions are in line with the KoW goblin factions.
No, but if they're anything like the Black Sea ships (they are similar scale, and BS ships were used in playtesting) they should sail together well. I'd guess (but am not sure!) DF ships were also used for playtesting... The bases are similar size (eg, the skaven DF ship base is about 30mm by 80mm, or close in size to Armada's medium ship (base size 30mm by 70mm)
Think those look great. All of the fleets have a strong character to them, and are obviously fantastical, without going too far into being ridiculous in terms of design. In other words, lines up with how Man'O'War was represented (which was what I was kind of hoping for).
Got the two player set as the Orc and Basilean large ships. EoD seems like the next faction to hit if I like the rules. And we'll also have to see what other factions are on the horizon.
I split a copy of the starter set with a friend. Assuming he likes it, he wants to get Empire of Dust. I’ll probably build out the Orc faction while waiting to see what’s on the horizons. (Fingers crossed for Trident Realms, Ratkin, Salamanders, or Goblin Pirates with flying contraptions).
I also traded someone for a copy of Dreadfleet - there’s some really nice terrain in there.
I just hope they don't make the mistake of thinking all fleets should have the same number of ships.
Games benefit from some asymmetry, having hordes and elites and big whale armies makes for a spicer game. And I have trouble suspending disbelief when one side gets cannons and ironclads and another gets wind and wood. It gets better if there's like 5 wood ships against one ironclad leviathan.
from what we know dwarfs are already different as they don't have tiny ships (and 1 small + 2 medium ships from Dwarfs are equal in points to 1 small, 1 medium and 1 large ship from Basilea)
so I don't think Mantic was running into the mistake the factions to similar or tried to equal out the number of ships
I'm all in. Those look fantastic. And Black Seas is fun, so I have high hopes for this one.
Haha yup me too.
I'm hoping just for something quick and easy, minimum prep time, that I can play with the better half over some of the cold, winter lockdown evenings. And hopefully even with my glacial painting speed a dozen ships shouldn't be too much to ask..
I also traded someone for a copy of Dreadfleet - there’s some really nice terrain in there.
And the ships should be similar size/ scale. I bet the 'named' XL ships could be represented by some of the stuff that's in Dreadfleet. The named dwarf ship isn't XL, for example, and might be similar in size to the dwarf ship from Dreadfleet.
I think the bases are going to be a little different (they look very different too)
The biggest bases in the game are for the massive Bloody Reaver (and the Heldenhammer too? I can't recall). I think those are 1.5" by 4.5" or about 115mm. The XL bases in Armada are 125mm, the L are 100mm.
The Goblins I ordered have arrived. They scale well with Shieldwolf Forest Goblins. They are bigger than the Night Goblins but that was always going to be the case. The Goblin wolf rider conversion I'd planned also worked out as the arms fit well on the Oathmark Goblins. I carved out the Oathmark Goblins neck and the Mantic head fits well too.
Hello, it’s Ronnie here!
As you may or may not know, the UK is back in lockdown from today. Just like the previous lockdown, we are following government guidelines to ensure the safety of customers and staff. We hope you all stay safe in these difficult times and hopefully take the opportunity to get a few hobby projects finished… or even start a new one!
ARMADA
Once the lockdown was announced, we’ve had a few messages about the Armada launch and whether the new restrictions will affect the releases. As you can imagine delivering a huge project like Armada, while in a global pandemic, and keeping everyone safe has kept us very busy.
We have taken on extra space, separate from the main building, to give us a secure and safe space to make all the resin we need for this first wave. We have also added a cool and clever new resin machine (which was really easy to set up and we definitely didn’t have the engineers back six times!).
With new safe workflows and by keeping the machines running over a longer part of the day we have increased output by over 600% for the last 2 weeks – and we need it to stay that way for the next 2 as well to get everything manufactured!
Zak standing next to one of the recent deliveries!
Delivery of the boxes are arriving each day, and small teams are getting the other components prepared for the final packaging process, which should take up all of the Mantic team for all of next week – all done in social distanced, and safe environment.
On the week of 16th November we will be shipping out to stores and web pre-orders ready for launch on the 21st. Exciting times – and please keep checking in on the blog for updates and you can keep up with everything Armada-related here.
THE WEBSITE
Even while getting Armada ready, we will continue to ship web orders – they just might take a little longer to leave the warehouse than normal. We’ve recently had a restock on paints and general hobby supplies, so if you’re planning on starting a new project, make sure you get an order in quick. We’ve also got plenty (mostly) of armies in stock and ready to ship too! So what better time to start working on a new Kings of War army?
Check out the Mantic store here. And remember that all* orders over £60/€80/$100 qualify for free courier shipping, so should arrive quickly and safely without you need to leave the comfort of your own home.
KEEPING YOU SAFE
Of course, keeping our staff safe is just part of our anti-COVID measures and we’re working hard to keep customers safe too.
We’re going above and beyond guidelines for maintaining safety when picking and packing orders. There’s handwash absolutely everywhere and all the team have masks and gloves that are required to be worn at all time
Orders are collected at structured set times, so there’s no contact between the various courier companies either
SOLO AND CO-OP PLAY
With gaming clubs closed, we realise that a lot of you will be looking at some way to get you fixed. Well, make sure you check out our Guide to Solo Gaming, which covers all the Mantic products that be played solo and even some FREE downloads!
To all customers, partners and staff, thanks for you support during an exceptionally difficult year. Please stay safe and, mostly importantly, keep hobbying!
That's great - I was worried when I started reading that Armada was going to be delayed, but it sounds like they are on top of the situation.
I like the idea for the solo rules as well. For a lot of people in Europe and US there is no other option to get together at clubs and events at the moment, so it's good that they are thinking of that population.
Shipping has begun to the US and Australia, UK and Europe next week. We are a little bit behind schedule right now.
Today's podcast has Ronnie talking about this issue. We expected to cast about 60,000 resin components, and we now need 190,000 due to demand (we typically cast something like 4,000 resin units a month, and this month we're making 30,000)
Big undertakings in Fantasy Naval wargames seem to come once in a blue moon. It probably helps that it's set in a larger supported setting and is based on a ruleset that's already cut its teeth and didn't have the poor reception that some other Warlord Games' rules have.
It's kind of a shame that Hysterical Games went under. A fantasy naval game with all factions at WW1/WW2 levels of technology could be interesting.
Also! I'm currently reading the tie in novel, "Pious" by Mark Barber. Very enjoyable so far, with the right blend of nautical terminology that you expect from a novel in the genre but not enough to bog down the action and characters.
Nice. I liked the hint he gave about the June release - it'll be a book/ expansion, and "we'll see what goes flying around there..." (~33:50)
Fliers, eh?
Can't wait.
Jan: 2-player set reprint and dwarfs
March: Empire of Dust
Apr-May: Big ships for the four factions. I think this is the XL ships (or maybe just L for the dwarfs?)
June: Expansion book (with fliers???)
You don't like the new Forge Father stuff? I kinda do, but it seems like it veers back towards the fantasy side of things.
Much like the ratkin seem to straddle the line between KoW and Deadzone.
That Chinese Junk ship gives me hope we'll see some Asian inspired models that aren't pulling only from Japanese aesthetics. I've long wanted some wuxia inspired high flying sword fighters.
Maybe I'll finally get to do my Tabletop Musou after all some day in the future!
-what's the mutli armed demon for? Rats? Or Salamanders? Can't tell.
Overall great models, as usual for current Mantic.
Now we need a full Elven updated range, those drakons are fantastic!
Armada and Ratkin stuff looking most excellent too.
I don’t like the new Forgefather stuff for a couple reasons:
1. That mech is a huge step back from the Iron Ancestor. Whoever designed it learned nothing from the mockery poured onto The Matrix 3 or the Grey Knight baby carrier.
2. The firgefather tech priests are uninspired. They look like someone took some WGA Einharjar and just glued on whatever bits they could tear off the nearest Jayce And The Wheeled Warriors toy. Those bits should be used for Gaslands, not Deadzone! Don’t the Forgefathers have actual technology and not some Canticle for Leibowitz, retro-lulz parody of technological advancement?
Very cool looking ships. I'll definitely be adding the Dictator and Ripper Hulk to my fleets.
So apparently it's Nautical Wargames month over on Techraptor, and they had an interview with Mark Latham, the author of the Trafalgar ruleset from Warhammer Historical. He worked on Armada as a background writer.
The most interesting part of the article (apart from talking about how Man O War, Trafalgar, Black Seas, and Armada influenced each other) is the potential hints of upcoming factions. Mark talks about the conflicts between his favorite faction, the Salamanders, and the Twilight Kin (Mantic's Dark Elves) and undead.
Sounds like they'll be wrapping up the Wave 1 factions in May with those ships, and the June release is an expansion book, so hopefully we'll be hearing more about the next wave factions in spring or early summer?
My starter box and two large ships arrived this morning. Lovely miniatures, but do require a little bit a fiddling to get them all together and sorted, but they really look good on the table.
Just off with painting them now. Really have the urge to buy more...
Crazy Bobby has been forced to isolate this year - nothing do with COVID, it's just for everyone's safety - so we're doing something a little different for our Black Friday sale. Use the code BLACKFRIDAY50 to get 50% off ALL digital products. This is a great chance to bolster your digital collection.
WholeHazelNuts wrote: My starter box and two large ships arrived this morning. Lovely miniatures, but do require a little bit a fiddling to get them all together and sorted, but they really look good on the table.
Just off with painting them now. Really have the urge to buy more...
Ooh exciting, hopefully mine won't be too long.
Can I ask did you order from Mantic direct or via a store?
Quick tip now that people are getting them - there is a little bit at the bottom of the masts that just looks like extra resin sprue. It's actually a little bit of extra peg that lets the mast sit taller so your sails aren't touching the main ship structure... *siiiigh*
You lucky dawwwg. Mine is on order with Wayland and it's still just hovering around in the Not In Stock phase of order processing (pre-ordered in September).
But they have emailed to day that Blood Bowl has been shipped, so little wins I suppose!
MarkNorfolk wrote: My rep at Mantic told me they're a few days behind shipping out the stuff - they started on the UK yesterday. It won't be long now...
Yep, Ronnie said the same thing in an update the other day. I'm actually glad in a way, it's basically sold out and they were just overwhelmed by the uptake. Lets hope the buzz continues well in to 2021 so we can all actually get some games played with people!
Only had a quick look through but first thoughts are very positive.
I haven't bought any Mantic stuff for a while, but the product definitely seems more professional than they were 2-3 years ago; rule book really nice paper quality and colour print, card tokens look good and like they will survive a few sessions. It looks like you get a fair amount of bang for your buck with a decent weight to the box.
Still a few little barriers to entry: Resin itself isn't as easy to work with as plastic (I don't have a problem with it but a newbie might), and things like the box being cardboard but with a sleeve (rather than a direct print on to the box, as you would get with most board games or GW products) is a step back. I do understand though, for both cases, this is entirely manufactured in the UK and produced amidst a pandemic so should have some leniency.
The important part! The minis and the rules. Just started looking through the rulebook and like I say promising so far, well laid out with nice artwork, and a story on the inside front page to immediately draw you into the game world. Looking forward to getting to grips with the minis and getting them cleaned and put together at least over the weekend.
Only had a quick look through but first thoughts are very positive.
My first impressions were a littlke mixed. First it wasnt a proper box!! (i do like a decent sturdy box to keep as much of a game system in) and unfortunately alot of the ships were broken with parts of the detail missing. Perils of resin i suppose. Most importantly some of the masts for the orc fleet were not included, ive emailed Mantic but had no confirmation that i will recieve these missing components.
One minor niggle is the upgrade tokens not being double sided with the same upgrade, could be annoying to find a specific counter.
On the plus side, the rulebook is very nice and the game does look like it be awesome to play.
I'm hearing and seeing a bunch of reports of mispacks and miscasts, that's a bummer! But the shots I'm seeing of finished ships look fantastic. I can't wait to get my hands on my copy, should come this weekend or early next week.
The Orc minis seem like they made the trip alright, but the Basileans are a wreck. Tons of broken little bits, sails got snapped in half. And I somehow ended up with two Gunbrig hulls, but no deck gun.
mine arrived, but I did not open it yet (went under the christmas tree) but it is heavier than I expected and at least from the outside everything looks fine .......
It does seem like Mantic were a bit surprised by the initial popularity of Armada and had to scramble to get everything set up for the release date (there was that slight delay of a week or so but it was nothing) in the volumes they required. The sad fact is by rushing it out they will now have a number of unhappy customers, who knows how many first time Mantic purchasers?, and a customer service headache that will not be sorted before 2021. A shame.
I'm just catching up on the thread so apologies for rehashing old news effectively but I'm really impressed by these. It's been a while since I could say that about Mantic's offerings personally (for a variety of reasons beyond just aesthetics) but these look really nice. Bravo!
Ya, those Drakon riders were due a makeover. The merry-go-round seats just didn't inspire much fear. Though overrunning a unit of orcs because they had collapsed in laughter was perhaps some small solace?
And unfortunately, as I build my models for Armada, I'm finding the Basileans didn't fare so well either. bad castings seem common in my lot. I got the "all the ships" preorder, something like 24 units, and 4 had broken or missing pieces and required replacements. All the orcs were OK (sloppy casting doesn't matter much, but thankfully they weren't too bad) but the two Basilean ships I've spent time with (Gur Panther and gun brig) were both kind of a mess. I'll make them work, but they're not very nice.
I'm not giving up yet, but this first round wasn't that great.
pancakeonions wrote: And unfortunately, as I build my models for Armada, I'm finding the Basileans didn't fare so well either. bad castings seem common in my lot. I got the "all the ships" preorder, something like 24 units, and 4 had broken or missing pieces and required replacements. All the orcs were OK (sloppy casting doesn't matter much, but thankfully they weren't too bad) but the two Basilean ships I've spent time with (Gur Panther and gun brig) were both kind of a mess. I'll make them work, but they're not very nice.
I'm not giving up yet, but this first round wasn't that great.
My Orcs also ended up alright, and I like the minis.
The way it went, I've been told, is that Armada was waaaay more popular than expected. Apparently their whole inventory that was supposed to last beyond the entire pre-order period got snapped up in the first 24 hours. So they had to scramble to get more, as well as deal with lockdowns and other covid complications. So I'm willing to forgive initial teething issues, especially since Mantic took a chance and didn't use kickstarter for this (kudos).
Hopefully the Dwarfs and EoD releases go smoother.
I too am willing to forgive. I'm a Mantic fan, and am keen to see this succeed. I do hope this doesn't sour others' experiences with them, as I'd really like this game to last longer than a few months/years.
Ironically, going the KS route might even have been better. We'd have had to wait longer, but they'd have a better idea of the demand, and a longer time to develop and produce top-notch minis...!
I had damage issues with a few ship hulls in my starter set (resin filled to uneven level on base, cannon snapped off, base sawn off at all angle). A little frustrating, but after one quick email to customer service I got a friendly reply, and pristine replacements within a week or so. And the quality of the pieces really is excellent - so sharp!
I think partly it's them having to rush to meet demand, partly that it's such a premium product (so flaws are both more noticeable and less acceptable for the price), and partly that they're not packed very well - multiple loose bags with a single thin layer of bubble wrap in a box that also contains a heavy book... All very fixable!
I have the Orc fleet. I am very happy with the way the sculpts turned out. I did have to straighten some masts but that’s to be expected with just about any long thin resin products.
Once I get all of these sails painted I’ll get some pictures up on Discord.
I have like six months to get the orcs and terrain complete before High Elves come out.
SNEAK PEEKS
Ok, so far, it’s been mostly stuff you’ve been expecting. Well, what if we told you we’re planning two more hard plastic sprues, in addition to the Ratkin release in Q1?
We’re not quite ready to reveal all just yet, but here are two clues to fuel the fires of speculation. What do you think these could be?
Demonspawn is probably the only Mantic model I'd get as a Ratkin player. The rest of the infantry is simply too bulky/orky for my taste, compared to the classic emaciated Skaven look.
Thanks for reposting! I really dig the Ratkin line, nice break from the GW rat-dogs of old that are still kicking around. I genuinely like the demonspawn and birthing daughter, and I can dig the brute look they've gone with. Solid split from the Skaven mutated rat ogre look (aside: I still can't believe GW is selling the terrible RO multipart RO box and didn't bother at least repackaging the pair from IOB )
Happy to see Mantic pushing quantity and quality of mini releases, especially in these under-represented non-human/elf/dwarf factions.
I like that Demonspawn. I've always been a sucker for big monstrosities with an excessive amount of limbs.
With Mantic pointing out it would be great for an Arch Fiend for the Abyssals leads me to believe it'll be a nice big centerpiece type model.
I'm sure I'll be sampling a bunch of these Vanguard models they've got coming. I wish I was big league enough to get review copies so I could check everything out in person!
Here’s a picture of my first completed Orc Ship (Bombboat). I’ll post all other pics in the appropriate Mantic sub-forums (and more pics in Discord), But I did want to post a photo or two here since we were having a discussion about the model quality up above.
Also, I’m really looking forward to the 2021 Armada preview tomorrow.
Love, love, love, the Demonspawn! Definitely picking one up. The rest of the Ratkin are pretty meh... I think they’re a hard pass for me. Would be very much happy, though, if Brutes were returned to the Ratkin list. It’d give someone for the Brute Enforcer to, well, Enforce.
Deathwolf wrote: Here’s a picture of my first completed Orc Ship (Bombboat). I’ll post all other pics in the appropriate Mantic sub-forums (and more pics in Discord), But I did want to post a photo or two here since we were having a discussion about the model quality up above.
Also, I’m really looking forward to the 2021 Armada preview tomorrow.
I NEED a tiny light house, How did you make or acquire this delightful thing and what scale is it?
I printed it out as is without any changes to the file. I added a ruined statue head to the base fro help fit in with the Kings of War theme. I downsized a head from Imperial Terrain:
I printed it out as is without any changes to the file. I added a ruined statue head to the base fro help fit in with the Kings of War theme. I downsized a head from Imperial Terrain:
Ya, the ratkin kinda bum me out too. Not too sure why, but the cartoon-y look just isn't grabbing me. I much prefer the older GW skaven. And the plastics from Isle of Blood.
Soft details for the old PVC models, not a big fan of them but easier to convert than GW's Rat Ogre models (because of the clear cut between body and arms)
Infantry is better than anything I have from GW (Island of Blood models are nice but only because it was the best you could get)
Resin Heroes are good, like the Warlock but the War Chief is less impressive than the Island of Blood one
not sure if I want to get the bundle or just the Warband Set as I don't need that many Heroes or wait for the KoW release and just get the Infantry
I'm not a big skaven guy, but I dont see the "old school GW skavens" similarities. When I hear "old school GW skavens" I think more of the old monkey-rat look, Mantic seems to be going for more of a buff look, like some ratmen/orc hybrid
dyndraig wrote: I'm not a big skaven guy, but I dont see the "old school GW skavens" similarities. When I hear "old school GW skavens" I think more of the old monkey-rat look, Mantic seems to be going for more of a buff look, like some ratmen/orc hybrid
Yes, a bit buffer - like "gorilla-rat" look.
Old school skavens tended to be a bit "buff" as well. Kodos showed the rat-ogre, they're from that old school skaven sculpt to the opposite of the warlord and clanrats who were remade in that thinner, skinner version.
Here are the old plastics :
You can clearly see the difference with the last version of GW clanrats. And to me, the old version is more similar to Mantic's own version of "not skavens".
I admit it fits more their '"cartoonish design" overall for the KoW line. Even their naval game is a bit cartoonish as well in the ship design, in the end. Like old Man-O-War.
Edit : to be honest, they look more like storm vermins in general. Maybe because they're buffer.
Edit 2 : I just noticed the tails of at least one of the lower body parts of the basic troops are wrapped around their right leg. It's very weird looking, but given how they fill the space on their base and given KoW's necessity to put the miniatures in close formation (since they're obviously intended to be used as well in KoW's regimental wargame), they don't have many other choices to avoid frustrating moments with miniatures not fitting on a regiment base because their tails are in the way of the others.
Is that the new Mantic or old GW? Is there some sort of UK pandemic restriction against gap filling in Nottingham? Or is that just against company policy? Wow.
I have taken the pictures from the shop (how dare I)
but those are the cheaper ones as you get 2 Ogres (+3 Packmaster & 6 Rats) for 32€, while the Stormfiends are 55 for 3 (and they are way more over the top)
Overall I like the Mantic Raktin more than the GW Skaves
It's not the best professional photos I've seen. Then again, I've seen a lot worse.
That's pumbagore level sculpting there. It looks like a 15 year old plastic kit from the layout and design. Even the typical GW copyright and year is missing from either sprue (unless I'm just missing it somehow). They've done a bang up job with primaris kits (the only "new" kits I've had any familiarity with in the past three or four years) though.
Oh yeah, the rat ogres are right up next to the razorgor in terms of absolute worst models GW sells. Even Mantic has no problems beating THAT by a large margin.
I was recently stunned to find out GW is still stocking that tired, horrible rat ogre kit as opposed to finally putting out a proper updated one, or just recutting the sprue for the (also quite old but at least nice looking) IOB pair of ogres. Besides being hideous sculpts, the gaps on that RO kit were astoundingly bad to work with (and honestly GW has had a number of horrendous gaps and mold-cutting decisions over the years - the number of kits I've walked away from because you have to join and fill two halves of a thing's face is not insignificant!)
Anyway, I'm a fan of the Mantic rats, happy to see another fleshed out rat-person line (at least partially in HIPS) in general, it's not a well represented theme when it comes to army-scale wargaming needs. Mantic's sculpts run the gamut from 'yuck they reused the gobbo fleabag?' to 'that's genuinely nice and I would buy from my LGS once Mantic gets its US stockist in order.' I'm also happy to see Ratkin that aren't just Vermyn rehashes - here's hoping we see a 'rat ogre' unit in line with the hero, that isn't a sendup of the nightmare kit, as seen here.
EDIT: Re: the tails wrapped around legs, it's obvious why they did it and I would rather have tails existing but not being horribly in the way, even if they look rather like dongs in that production photo , than have no tails or bits that break off all the time (hi I've played Skaven for 20+ years)
lord_blackfang wrote: There was a time when that rat ogre was the best plastic ogre-sized infantry kit in the world.
There was not. It wasn't _as bad_ in comparison, but it wasn't the first ogre-sized plastic kit, nor was it ever the best.
Even at the time it was a noticeable step down from the metal rat ogres, to the point that many skaven players didn't bother buying the new plastics.
"Wasn't as bad"
Uhuh.
It was the time of cartoonish monstruous infantries. The most relevant point when the plastic rat ogre kit was released the first time is that it was plastic.
And honestly, if you look closely at the equivalent of "not rat ogres" from Mantic...they do have the same big hands and cartoony head as well. They're just covered with more armors and hold weapons.
And yeah, a lot of the current GW skaven line is old. Some are VERY old. Shame and all, but well, what can you say. It's certainly not Mantic Games that will throw the stone first (they still sell these old ugly elves and plastic dwarves, after all).
Sarouan wrote: And yeah, a lot of the current GW skaven line is old. Some are VERY old. Shame and all, but well, what can you say. It's certainly not Mantic Games that will throw the stone first (they still sell these old ugly elves and plastic dwarves, after all).
*Awkwardly looks at all Mantic dwarf army I finished painting recently*
*Awkwardly considers the irony in someone with a dwarf army asking why someone else is being defensive*
*grumbles "they do the job just fine and they're affordable" softly into beard*
*looks at the Mantic Elves on the table*
*looks what GW has to offer*
nah, I stick with the Mantic ones for an R&F game
specially not for the price
staying with the Rat-Ogres, Mantic ones cost 18€ for 4
they are PVC, have limited weapon options but free poseable arms
GW ones are 32€ for 2
plastic, limited options and free poseable bodies and arms
or the Stormfiends, 55€ for 3
plastic, many options, monopose
going with the Mantic ones and in addition with a Box of Ogre Warriors to get more weapon options and I am still cheaper than GW and have enough fantasy bits for 12 models
another important thing here is that you get a line with constant/similar design
Esmer wrote: The newer Mantic Elves - the ones from League of Infamy - are leagues beyond their current range. I mean:
Yeah, but you know, that's not the point - especially when defenders of Mantic Games criticize GW for selling old stuff they don't like but when it's Mantic Games old stuff, it's fine.
And I get Kodos doesn't like GW and would rather stay with Mantic Games, it's fine...as for myself, I don't feel the need to defend Mantic Games at all costs, and I would certainlny not make an army of their old elves just because they're cheap. From my point of view, buying poor looking miniatures even at a bargain still doesn't hide the fact it's poor looking miniatures you're buying, no matter the company.
Besides, their regular drakon riding elves are...well...cartoony looking. The mounts in particular really look like cheap toys from a toystore...but it's still consistent with the KoW general design for their (very thin) elves, indeed.
It's funny to see the difference with the drakon lord. You can clearly see he's coming from a different set (the League board game), the mount is designed completely differently - dynamism included.
I don't like the Mantic Elves because they are cheap, this is just a bonus
by the time they were released, Warhammer models had hands bigger than their heads and the other alternative were monopose Lord of the Rings minis
Spoiler:
the slender non-human design and the possibility to build a Phalanx made them attractive for me unlike the "humans with pointy ears/helmets" from GW were the main problem is the same as with the Skaven and most of the ranges, different units have very different design and quality and are 20 years appart while building an R&F army with just the newer models is nearly impossible or gets very expensive (there is a reason why Island of Blood Elves are still sold for high prices although those are low quality core box models)
I was sold on the Elves after I saw that picture and GW does not offer something similar
Spoiler:
Empire Knights uses horses that are 30 years old and look very different than the newer ones
Khemri core infantry had the same problem (and why people did not want to start that army, because of the 20 year old sub-standard must use core units)
Mantic Elves are old and dated, as most kits of the same age, but while it is the most controversal range, Mantic once said that it was also their best selling KoW range prior 3rd Edition (and Mantic is aware that a consitant design is a big selling point and was one of the reasons why there was no update with some new kits)
Mantic made a big step foward in the last years and there is a big improvement between the old Hero on Drakon and the new one but the design is similar
Besides, their regular drakon riding elves are...well...cartoony looking. The mounts in particular really look like cheap toys from a toystore...but it's still consistent with the KoW general design for their (very thin) elves, indeed.
It's funny to see the difference with the drakon lord. You can clearly see he's coming from a different set (the League board game), the mount is designed completely differently - dynamism included.
The old Drakon riders look like utter crap while the newer ones look great is my point.
I expect Mantic to re-do their entire Elf range in the new style in the next 2-4 years.
EDIT:
Apparently, Mantic Drakons are capable of magically growing a second set of limbs and losing it again. The Drakons should either all have 4 or six limbs.
kodos wrote: I don't like the Mantic Elves because they are cheap, this is just a bonus
by the time they were released, Warhammer models had hands bigger than their heads and the other alternative were monopose Lord of the Rings minis
I'd prefer the GW big hands to the pin-sized armored waist of old plastic Mantic elves. That's what bother me the most with their range : if you want to have realistic proportions, you don't make an impossible thin waist.
I find it funny that you criticize GW on their hands but you're fine with Mantic elven waists. They're both the same problem: unrealistic proportions.
TBH that problem with proportions still happen for new releases, just not as bad as for elves. The new Mantic ratskins are for sure very bulky and...yeah, they look like rat-orcs, to be honest. Like Brian Nelson's hunchback orcs - and I'm not a fan of those.
Mantic made a big step foward in the last years and there is a big improvement between the old Hero on Drakon and the new one but the design is similar
True enough, but then you notice their prices aren't that cheap as before anymore. Rise in quality means rise in costs as well.
Still, I will never forget this masterpiece :
Spoiler:
It's a thing to have big hands, it's another to have impossible thin limbs and waist while still clearly wearing an armor.
...or this magnificent beast :
Spoiler:
Yep, it's been past long time their elves need to be entirely remade. It will be done in time, for sure (I know, the League shows interesting new miniatures, but I'm talking about specific kits made for KoW, not just a few miniatures with the same pose meant for a board game).
There are plenty of people who are unironically in to the almost insect-like proportions of the mantic elves and are happy with them. Particularly when ranked up into big units in the manner they're intended for, they look OK by me.
Billicus wrote: There are plenty of people who are unironically in to the almost insect-like proportions of the mantic elves and are happy with them. Particularly when ranked up into big units in the manner they're intended for, they look OK by me.
Just like WFB miniatures looked okay ranked up into big units. Or AoS miniatures, actually...saw a few KoW armies made of them and even made one myself , looks pretty good.
Heh, I'm okay with that. It's just the "it's fine with one company but not with another" excuse that I'm not fond of. Well, a part of Mantic customers are people who strongly hate GW for their own reasons, in the end, so it's perfectly understandable to have that stance.
I don't think they were saying it's fine for one company and not another, they were saying they're OK with the slender proportions and prefer it to the GW heroic big hands thing. It's the characteristics of the models themselves, not who's making them. This "mantic customers are people who strongly hate GW" thing is dated as hell too, the KoW facebook pages have loads of GW models shown off on them same as any other supplier
kodos wrote: I don't like the Mantic Elves because they are cheap, this is just a bonus
by the time they were released, Warhammer models had hands bigger than their heads and the other alternative were monopose Lord of the Rings minis
I'd prefer the GW big hands to the pin-sized armored waist of old plastic Mantic elves. That's what bother me the most with their range : if you want to have realistic proportions, you don't make an impossible thin waist.
I find it funny that you criticize GW on their hands but you're fine with Mantic elven waists. They're both the same problem: unrealistic proportions.
I said nothing about "realistic" and we are still talking about fantasy creatures here
yet GW Elves design is "humans with different helmets" while the Mantic approach is "slender and thin"
the Mantic design is unrealistc because they wanted it to be that way and not because they were unable to model smaller hands on human models
and GW sticked with that design, looking at the new AoS stuff and the main design feature are fancy helmets while the other changes come down to better design quality (the big hands were not intedet to be the point of difference between Elves and Humans but the result of not being able to do it better and calling it "heroic" scale)
I can understand that people just want their Elves to be Humans with pointy ears, long hair and fancy helmets
(the same as some want their Dwarfs to be humans with long beards and Orks to be bulky humans with Green Skin)
but this is not for me and I want my Elves to be different than humans
...or this magnificent beast :
I like that Dragon, it was made for Baordgame/RPG and it is not the usual "snake with wings" that we get from GW not the best Dragon out there but not the worst either (specially for gaming)
Theres some miniatures that are designed to be ranked up.
I LOVE the chaos warriors. But in AoS style formation they don't look half as good as when they are ranked as a big marching block of plate-clad killers.
In theory the way Mantic did their elves wasn't bad. Theres a ton of fantasy universes where elves are things from extremely thin and tall humans to more insect-like humanoids. But the execution could have been done much better.
Yeah, I mean 100% they know that comparatively they aren’t good compared to what they can do now.
Any time someone complains about Mantic quality it’s always their first lines, they have come a long way since then.
They do things I do and don’t like.
I went with them for ghouls and skeletons and zombies (obviously) for my VC just for price, but was happy enough with their stuff.
I have a load of Veermyn for Deadzone, I think their rats are done pretty well. Haven’t looked at these ratkin in detail though yet.
But now that Mantic is its own thing rather than a budget GW, I don’t really compare them any more than I would Infinity or Hordes etc for quality.
I tend to just look at a line for how good it looks. (Though a bit harder when a lot of people inter mingle units/models between the two to be fair..)
Given the vast quality difference between Mantic's old and new Abyssal Dwarves and their old and new Goblins I'll raise a skeptical brow at whoever says that their Elves (or Dwarves, for that matter) look weird (read: crap) by choice rather than by lack of skill and/or equipment.
They are clearly improving their modelling skills.IMHO the last truly bad range they did was the Empire of Dust. Those models were simply awfully sculpted, unintentionally so.
Billicus wrote: There are plenty of people who are unironically in to the almost insect-like proportions of the mantic elves and are happy with them. Particularly when ranked up into big units in the manner they're intended for, they look OK by me.
Yeah, I tend to think of Mantic’s elves more like Fae creatures, utterly inhuman and not quite biological. I think they work better for something like The Dresden Files, where their inhuman proportions sell the idea that there’s a whole uncanny magical world out there.
The RGD Gaming fauns are also extremely thin, which makes them natural army mates with Mantic Elves. The aesthetic isn’t for everyone, but it has its market for sure.
Sarouan wrote: Heh, I'm okay with that. It's just the "it's fine with one company but not with another" excuse that I'm not fond of.
I feel like it's worth noting that GW make the best mass produced wargaming plastic sprue miniatures in the world and they know it and they charge for that. It feels like when you're the top of the market, you should probably be held to a different standard from the plucky upstarts nipping at your market share.
For me, what really makes or breaks a line is material, and I'm most happy that Mantic has sorted out its HIPS for KOW from the PVC trash of Dreadball and whatnot. Also shoutout to Mantic's resin quality ... with a nod to GW's utterly garbage resin* that they've never figured out and have simply worked to phase out entirely and replace with plastic - which deserves props, play to your strengths, Dub!
*Talking about finecast here, not FW's resin, tho that isn't super great either.
Also I really want to pull up a classic GW S-dragon and put it side by side with the chonky Mantic dragon. I have a feeling they're like cousins separated by 20ish years and 2000 lbs
there is a difference in design and casting quality
Abyssal Dwarfs were aweful as metal/plastic hybrid kits (same as Empire of Dust), but their overal design did not really change with the new models
the Elves itself should have be a bit larger, like 1.5 times but keep the slender design and if the difference between old and new is similar to old and new Abyssal Dwarf design I am habby
and for EoD, either they re-do the stuff in Resin or make new plastics, but I won't touch them as long as they use the metal hybrids
The RGD Gaming fauns are also extremely thin, which makes them natural army mates with Mantic Elves. The aesthetic isn’t for everyone, but it has its market for sure.
did not know about those, guess I have found my Hunters of the Wild
Sarouan wrote: Heh, I'm okay with that. It's just the "it's fine with one company but not with another" excuse that I'm not fond of.
I feel like it's worth noting that GW make the best mass produced wargaming plastic sprue miniatures in the world and they know it and they charge for that. It feels like when you're the top of the market, you should probably be held to a different standard from the plucky upstarts nipping at your market share
it is cheaper for a reason, people wanting better quality for less money just to have a competition but than buy still GW because "reasons"
seen this with Smartphones, Graphic Cards, Cars, etc
the funny thing here is, if a new garage-company would bring in a gaming system with rules in the same quality as GW, people would not take it for free and asks them what they think to come up with such a low quality product
yet for GW they happily buy it because "they cannot do it better"
Billicus wrote: There are plenty of people who are unironically in to the almost insect-like proportions of the mantic elves and are happy with them. Particularly when ranked up into big units in the manner they're intended for, they look OK by me.
Yeah, I tend to think of Mantic’s elves more like Fae creatures, utterly inhuman and not quite biological. I think they work better for something like The Dresden Files, where their inhuman proportions sell the idea that there’s a whole uncanny magical world out there.
The RGD Gaming fauns are also extremely thin, which makes them natural army mates with Mantic Elves. The aesthetic isn’t for everyone, but it has its market for sure.
This was my view as well going back to their release. "Impossibly thin" doesn't have alot of relevance in terms of the Fae races and their depictions.
Also it's not like there isn't already plenty of precedent for biologically impossible waists in print art and figures. The main difference I see is that such waist proportions are usually applied only to female humans and paired with "enhanced" busts and bottoms. This compared to having such slimness applied across the entire physique and to both male and female examples of an eleven race.
There were still some bad sculpts (bad hands, weird dragons,etc) and it wasn't an army I was interested in, but the overall aesthetic didn't bother me at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heh, I'm okay with that. It's just the "it's fine with one company but not with another" excuse that I'm not fond of. I feel like it's worth noting that GW make the best mass produced wargaming plastic sprue miniatures in the worldD
Do they though? Perry miniatures might disagree.
GW makes a wide range of sci-fantasy figures with odd proportions with a dizzying array of filigree. But that is a long way from determining "best".
the funny thing here is, if a new garage-company would bring in a gaming system with rules in the same quality as GW, people would not take it for free and asks them what they think to come up with such a low quality product
yet for GW they happily buy it because "they cannot do it better"
As you seem to be rightly suggesting, better written games already exist. I don't know any folks who have read widely on rulesets and think AoS and 40k are the best written rules available.
In both of the above examples (and seen throughout GW history) market share, adherence to a particular aesthetic and depth of product line is often confused with superior quality.
I don't think people -happily- buy Warhammer for matched play. They TOLERATE Warhammer for matched play. Many then try to justify it, to others yes, but also to themselves.
I've always hated that Mantic did elves first, when they really had no experience making models. The proportions are actually fine, I like the lanky look and the armor is good enough. But what makes the elves unusable us the badly designed blobby shields and spears and especially the awful heads and helmets, just absolutely kills the models. Every now and again I pull out the regiment I bought years ago and remember why I could never use them in the first place.
I really hope they redo them soon in the same design as the League of Infamy spearmen and archers, those are significantly better models than the old plastic elves from 2009ish. Especially considering what they're done recently with the goblin infantry, that sort of update in quality and design for the elves would be phenominal.
Until then, I've got heaps of the Oathmark, LotR and Runewars Latari (which are hands-down the BEST wood elf models ever produced, I wish they'd gotten a few more unit desgins)
the funny thing here is, if a new garage-company would bring in a gaming system with rules in the same quality as GW, people would not take it for free and asks them what they think to come up with such a low quality product
yet for GW they happily buy it because "they cannot do it better"
No, they buy it because they like what GW is making as games. All games are always better than the others to their fans, and that's the same for KoW fans.
I like KoW rules, but I also like the way AoS is designed. It's just not the same game experience. What I'm looking with KoW is a simple yet strategic and elegant mass battle wargame, where I can treat units as single entities and not look too much in details. What I'm looking in AoS is a more skirmish, individual based wargame where I can move each miniature more freely than in KoW, play combos...and also have a lot more variety of battleplans.
I don't like things in both of them, I don't deem one "better" than the other - both are just giving me pleasure in different fields in a different way.
The thing is, they're games and not "perfect rule systems for the sake of having a perfect rule system". That thing doesn't exist in this world, and I think if it would, it would just stop being a game and be utterly boring.
It's fine if you love Mantic Games' design. I like some of their new releases, others I do not. I'm totally not attracted to their bulky ratskins. Do they have character ? Yes. Are their proportions still badly cartoonish ? Yes ! Sure, they may be what they want to do with KoW miniatures, but I don't know... You like the pin-sized elves ? Good for you, I don't - they're not looking like elves, to me, just pitiful beings from a Southern land plagued with famine. But yes, they're old and Mantic Games still sells them until they can replace them, like the basileans. Still, it's low quality. And indeed, quality is something you pay for.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I don't think people -happily- buy Warhammer for matched play. They TOLERATE Warhammer for matched play. Many then try to justify it, to others yes, but also to themselves.
For matched play in KoW ? Players buy / use Warhammer miniatures in their KoW armies because they look better than Mantic Games miniatures for them, simple as that. Sure, I could have used the new goblins for my goblin army in KoW, but I really love the night goblin designs from GW and Mantic Games doesn't offer me that (other than a few hero miniatures). Their versions of goblins isn't how I see my goblins, just the same for elves. And yeah, the new goblins from Mantic Games are better than their old goblins...but to me, they're still not superior to GW's night goblins (I guess I should call them Gloomspite Gitz, now). And they still look so good in regimental units !
Should I support Mantic Games more by buying their miniatures I don't like ? I don't think so, and I know I'm not alone on that matter. I guess I'm not a "true fan" and I'm fine with that.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I don't think people -happily- buy Warhammer for matched play. They TOLERATE Warhammer for matched play. Many then try to justify it, to others yes, but also to themselves.
For matched play in KoW ? Players buy / use Warhammer miniatures in their KoW armies because they look better than Mantic Games miniatures for them, simple as that.
This just feels like you're trying to score points, nobody's out here denying GW make nice miniatures. I'd point out though that from my experience of the community it's really only a minority of KoW players that use GW miniatures
BobtheInquisitor wrote: But yeah, GW makes some very nice miniatures for prices that make me ask, “who make adequately nice miniatures?”
And on that note, take a look at Dark Sword Miniatures. Their sculpting is more to my taste than GW offerings, and some of Mantic's. But their lines are more for the RPG market or collector/painter. Also, they are metal. They do produce the George R.R. Martin Masterworks line (both in 28 Heroic and 54mm). Mr Martin had praise for how Maester Luwin's chain-of-many-metals was rendered.
I've bought some for use in Frostgrave and other small fantasy skirmish games, but I can't make an army with them. {Although they are trying with this Night's Watch set. But metal. I started with metal, but want to avoid it going forward.}
I suspect some of what appeals to me about Dark Sword's aesthetic is that it is very 80's Fantasy. They have Larry Elmore, Clyde Caldwell, and Keith Parkinson lines, illustrators whose work was on the cover of Dragon magazine when I was in high school and college. So it was what I grew up with. And most of the character models I've purchased are based on Larry Elmore's art. So the Dark Sword aesthetic will not appeal to all.
Some trivia: When GW started as Citadel Miniatures, they did not make nice minis. They made Fiend Folio monsters for AD&D (poorly sculpted), and had a good number of naked women being tortured on various devices. So no to nice minis.
By the way, you can't escape the fact Mantic Games is also raising their prices for their new releases. You won't be able to hide behind your arguments of "cheap and consumer-friendly" for too long, mark my words.
I know a lot of KoW fans try to deflect this by using regiment bases and putting less miniatures for the according size, but that's avoiding the core problem. In some situations, using GW miniatures for their KoW equivalent is actually not that much expensive in the end. Sometimes it's cheaper.
I feel the scale of the Mantic miniatures is getting slowly bigger too. It's especially true for the monsters...you can feel they will use the titan base (75 mm) more and more often. These bulky ratskins, they feel like they're covering their 20 mm base quite a lot (it's still 20 mm, right ?). Doesn't matter if you're making a regimental base rather than putting together 20 miniatures on their square bases in a 5x4 formation, but it does if you want to make it "classical". I struggled sometimes with some poses or badly chosen arms that weren't suited with a strict base to base formation, looks like it won't be solved with new and future releases as well.
the funny thing here is, if a new garage-company would bring in a gaming system with rules in the same quality as GW, people would not take it for free and asks them what they think to come up with such a low quality product
yet for GW they happily buy it because "they cannot do it better"
No, they buy it because they like what GW is making as games. All games are always better than the others to their fans, and that's the same for KoW fans.
I like KoW rules, but I also like the way AoS is designed. It's just not the same game experience. What I'm looking with KoW is a simple yet strategic and elegant mass battle wargame, where I can treat units as single entities and not look too much in details. What I'm looking in AoS is a more skirmish, individual based wargame where I can move each miniature more freely than in KoW, play combos...and also have a lot more variety of battleplans.
you talked not about liking the designs but the double standard on quality
and liking the GW game design is one thing, being forgiving about their low quality in printed materials and find excuses that the top dog on the TT market is not able to do better (and playtesting or proofreading is impossible for any company) is something different
if people would be as harsh to GW about quality of their products as they are with other comapnies sales numbers would be different
(but there are already a lot of people who use other sources to get the printed material from GW as they don't want to pay anything for that low quality)
I be forgiving if I like the model design, get stuff for cheap and can convert the rest
not happy with the Elves Light Cavalry or Warmachines, but I can convert both by using other kits from the range and/or bying 3rd party bits and still end up cheaper
not happy with metal/plastic hybrids so I never bought Abyssal Dwarfs or EoD although I like the EoD design and wanted an Undead Pharao army since 6th Edi (waited years for GW to update the core Skellis....)
called out on Mantic in a lot of cases to go away from metal, and the change to resin for most is a positive change in the right direction
but I still avoid any metal models they sell
I don't mind the newer PVC models after they changed the hardness of the material and I found a plastic glue that works
and I really hate what they have done with the Nameless in Deadzone
the models are ok for Boardgame/RPG, but the overall design and quality is not good enough for other games even if you make the same models in resin
and from all models Mantic sells, those are by far the ones that really need an update as not only the quality but also the design is off
(next one is EoD but here a change in material would already help)
It's especially true for the monsters...you can feel they will use the titan base (75 mm) more and more often.
having big centerpiece models for each army was a request from the community, the 75mm Base a direct result (and you can use bigger bases in KoW anyway if you want) and I don't see that we get it more and more often
I know a lot of KoW fans try to deflect this by using regiment bases and putting less miniatures for the according size, but that's avoiding the core problem. In some situations, using GW miniatures for their KoW equivalent is actually not that much expensive in the end. Sometimes it's cheaper.
might be, as long as an Army for KoW or AoS (or 40k) with Mantic models costs half of what it costs with GW models
and liking the GW game design is one thing, being forgiving about their low quality in printed materials and find excuses that the top dog on the TT market is not able to do better (and playtesting or proofreading is impossible for any company) is something different
It's still higher than what other companies are offering, and this is the sad truth. Mantic Games isn't any better here.
having big centerpiece models for each army was a request from the community, the 75mm Base a direct result (and you can use bigger bases in KoW anyway if you want) and I don't see that we get it more and more often
No, that's not because it was a request from the community...people were fine with the previous rules and just adapted to the miniatures they were using and weren't available on the Mantic webstore. Actually, players were annoyed when it came because their previous monsters weren't suddenly on the right base anymore with the current edition.
The reason why Mantic monsters suddenly get bigger is because it's easier to sell at a higher price. It's the same reason GW keeps rising the scale of their miniatures. It's just a matter of time, but we can see Mantic Games doing the same, slowly - their miniatures get slightly bigger than before, and they're sold at a higher price as well.
It's purely for making more money, not for the community. That some players like you make excuses for that change and try to build another narrative saying it's for us enjoying great centerpieces, that's entirely another thing. Because the truth is we could have already centerpieces with monsters fitting on a 50 mm without being overly bulky. But I do agree that Mantic toy dragon I showed before would look less restrained on a 75 mm base than a 50 mm one. Just a matter of time, when they will redesign the miniature, like they did with the others.
might be, as long as an Army for KoW or AoS (or 40k) with Mantic models costs half of what it costs with GW models
Oh, not just the cheap old miniatures ! Actually, the new releases look great on round bases, especially the Vanguard stuff. I like to use my basileans for AoS Cities of Sigmar "count as" (obviously not to play at a GW store, but nowadays that's not really a problem anyway), because I think they give a more "high fantasy paladin" feeling than boring old Empire from WFB. It's certainly a subjective matter, but the faint increase in size with having a 25 mm round base instead of a square of 20 mm gives just the extra space the miniature need to be put more easily base to base with each other. Sadly, it messes the standard KoW regimental base a bit, but it's still playable that way.
I know it's my personnal opinion here, but when I see the new Vanguard boxes, I can't help but notice the miniatures' poses aren't always really thought for KoW regimental bases - even when they make bundles for KoW using the monopose Vanguard miniatures. Sometimes, it feels really clunky.
and liking the GW game design is one thing, being forgiving about their low quality in printed materials and find excuses that the top dog on the TT market is not able to do better (and playtesting or proofreading is impossible for any company) is something different
It's still higher than what other companies are offering, and this is the sad truth. Mantic Games isn't any better here.
bs. GW has incredibly poor rules and their "fixes" are not much better.
The reason why Mantic monsters suddenly get bigger is because it's easier to sell at a higher price. It's the same reason GW keeps rising the scale of their miniatures. It's just a matter of time, but we can see Mantic Games doing the same, slowly - their miniatures get slightly bigger than before, and they're sold at a higher price as well.
Mantic's biggest miniature is $40 though, a third of the GW equivalent/
The reason why Mantic monsters suddenly get bigger is because it's easier to sell at a higher price. It's the same reason GW keeps rising the scale of their miniatures. It's just a matter of time, but we can see Mantic Games doing the same, slowly - their miniatures get slightly bigger than before, and they're sold at a higher price as well.
Mantic's biggest miniature is $40 though, a third of the GW equivalent/
I guess we will soon see even bigger miniatures, like Mega-Gargant sized Monsters and those will cost 140€ or more /s
But yeah, GW makes some very nice miniatures for prices that make me ask, “who make adequately nice miniatures?”
I realize that this seems rhetorical, but I'm personally glad that there are lots of companies making good miniatures at bargain prices.
With Mantic being miniatures-agnostic, the canny buyer can wait for close-outs, clearances, etc. I could field a good-sized Enforcer force with the Sedition Wars Vanguard I picked up for an average of about 50 cents each when the game was being blown out.
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2016/10/maersk-tesla-corporate-platoon-complete/ Runewars is currently being blown out providing some excellent deals (many still in the Mantic price range though) .
Sarouan wrote:Be as salty as you want.
By the way, you can't escape the fact Mantic Games is also raising their prices for their new releases. You won't be able to hide behind your arguments of "cheap and consumer-friendly" for too long, mark my words.
Yes, its undeniable that Mantic games figures are rising in price. However, by way of clarification, two questions:
1) Is the quality increasing?
2) Are the prices rising faster than inflation?
Because...
If prices are incresing with inflation, they aren't really going up.
If quality is increasing and prices are rising with inflation then you're now getting more for your money.
If quality is increasing and the prices are rising a bit faster than inflation then you're still getting a similar value-for-money.
I suspect that relative to inflation and quality increase the relative price of Mantic miniatures is not increasing very much.
Would those who want to pay 2010 miniatures be ok with 2010 quality? I suspect in many cases the answer is no.
People have always said 'oh Mantic prices are rising, soon they'll be on par with GW' completely ignoring that soon after they would be out of business. Obviously that will never be the case; Mantic will need prices to be cheaper as the miniatures are of lower quality. They aren't anywhere near the Kirby-levels of deluded they would need to be to implement such pricing. And besides, GW prices keep increasing too. If we are holding up new mantic minis as an example for price, it is only fair to compare them to new GW minis as an example for their price. Mantic and GW have different niches, there's nothing wrong with that and it isn't a criticism against either company to talk about it.
NinthMusketeer wrote: People have always said 'oh Mantic prices are rising, soon they'll be on par with GW' completely ignoring that soon after they would be out of business. Obviously that will never be the case; Mantic will need prices to be cheaper as the miniatures are of lower quality.
I reckon that's a big reason of why Rune Wars did so poorly. GW prices for Mantic quality.
NinthMusketeer wrote: People have always said 'oh Mantic prices are rising, soon they'll be on par with GW' completely ignoring that soon after they would be out of business. Obviously that will never be the case; Mantic will need prices to be cheaper as the miniatures are of lower quality.
I reckon that's a big reason of why Rune Wars did so poorly. GW prices for Mantic quality.
Didn't help that FFG released Legion shortly afterwards. Stole Rune Wars' thunder and FFG's interest.
Shame, as it was a very good game. Got in it on a budget and knew it would eventually die, but I did expect to be supported longer than 3 years. Oh well, my Daqan will live on in KoW.
NinthMusketeer wrote: People have always said 'oh Mantic prices are rising, soon they'll be on par with GW' completely ignoring that soon after they would be out of business. Obviously that will never be the case; Mantic will need prices to be cheaper as the miniatures are of lower quality. They aren't anywhere near the Kirby-levels of deluded they would need to be to implement such pricing. And besides, GW prices keep increasing too. If we are holding up new mantic minis as an example for price, it is only fair to compare them to new GW minis as an example for their price. Mantic and GW have different niches, there's nothing wrong with that and it isn't a criticism against either company to talk about it.
Just look at Armada's prices, when it's basically just a handful of resin ships. It's expensive, if you look closer. "But it's a skirmish game !!" - yep, you're paying the "Skirmish Tax" here. Reason it's sold that way is because the comparison with the other similar products on the market is simply not as crowded as the market for KoW's 28-32 mm fantasy miniatures. Naval wargames aren't that plentiful around, so Mantic Games is more free to put the price as they see it fit. And people will be forced to follow, since there is no that many similar offers elsewhere.
Like you said, competition matters ! And Mantic Games will totally be happy to sell you more at a higher price if they could have done so.
Armada Prices are similar to other similar sized games with Resin models
of course Resin is not as cheap as plastic, it never was
but I guess same people are complaining that 15mm models are much cheaper than 28mm models as you get much more of them for the same price and Mantic is cheating by selling 28mm for a higher price than 15mm
kodos wrote: Armada Prices are similar to other similar sized games with Resin models
of course Resin is not as cheap as plastic, it never was
but I guess same people are complaining that 15mm models are much cheaper than 28mm models as you get much more of them for the same price and Mantic is cheating by selling 28mm for a higher price than 15mm
Some will do, obviously ! For me who sees Mantic Games as just another company like GW, simply at a smaller scale and forced to deal with the competition, it doesn't shock me at all. It's all natural, that's how trade works : sell at the perceived price your customers will accept to buy.
Because in reality, resin isn't especially more expensive than plastic to produce...on the opposite in many cases. Some "small producers" like TTCombat sell whole fantasy regiments at a price defying all competition while it's all resin, after all - and I'm not even talking about 3D printing. Yet the quality isn't always the same.
Still, Armada prices are what they are and you can't deny their numbers in comparison to their other products. To me, it kinda stretches the long time motto of Mantic Games "we make great games at cheap prices". That it stays like this in the mind of their fans is something that I believe will be a hard wake up from a part of them, when Mantic Games will do something more..."GW like", I guess.
I guess Warlord Games is worse than GW selling 3 plastic ship models for 40€ while their older products are 24 models for 25€
so within years, warlord games increased their prices by 1280% and people are still buying there not realising that they are much worse than GW ever was
either you are just trolling or have no clue what you are talking about
As far as price increases go, basic fantasy regiment box has gone from £12 to £20 from 2009 to 2020.
Adjust for inflation and that's £17 to £20, so a price rise of 18% in real terms.
It's up to the individual to decide if there has been more than a 18% increase in quality over that time period, I'd say there is, there's certainly a lot more physical plastic on the sprues, generally 5 body options, 10 head, different arms, extra bits etc.
Armada is a bit of an outlier, but it's important to realise that the ships are pretty big models in multiple complex parts, better to think of them as ogre-equivalent rather than in 28mm terms. I bought into it and feel a lot better about the purchase after seeing the models.
I don't even want to think about trying to calculate 2009 GW vs 2020 GW, but I do notice when something gets released that isn't entirely price-gouging (tzeentch cultists are good), and was all over that first issue of the AoS partwork (2000 point KoW army for £18).
GW prices are inconsistent, though I have noticed they are going into that 'overpricing' phase where they are pushing people from complaining about prices they pay for new minis to complaining about prices they refuse to pay for new minis. It'll calm down eventually when the bean counters remember long term consequences but it sucks for armies getting releases in the meantime. At least Mantic doesn't do tidal pricing.
Hi everyone, Kyle here – the North American Trade Sales Executive here at Mantic and host of the Master Crafted YouTube Channel with a blog about my good friend Jesse.
Arguably, one of the best things about Mantic’s games are the incredible communities that thrive around them. One of Kings of War’s best is a man named Jesse Cornwell. Jesse has been a crucial part of the fun and positivity that surround the game today. He embodies the light hearted nature of tabletop gaming with an endless supply of wit and humor that has graced many of you with smiles and laughter. Winning practically every ‘best sport’ trophy the tournaments he’s played in, even his opponents agree: win or lose, Jesse makes sure you’re having fun while playing the game.
Jesse is fighting a harrowing battle with cancer. At Mantic, we decided to honor his countless contributions to the game with a new model from his favorite faction, Ogres. Not only that, we wanted his direct input on the design process. With the Ogre Warlock in need of a new model, this was the perfect opportunity to put our heads together and make something extra cool.
Anyone familiar with Jesse’s antics will undoubtedly recognize certain pizza related deity symbolism in both the belt and staff. This is also present in Jesse’s extremely popular magic item, Sir Jesse’s Boots of Striding. He felt it was also important to include trinkets and trophies from the Ogres’ mercenary work, throwing in a personal jab to his brother and myself with a Twilight Kin bracer dangling from the staff. I’ve lost to him enough times to agree that this is entirely appropriate.
There’s the paw of a Gur Panther to represent the frequent Ogre cooperation with the Basileans and a shell dangling from its belt to show a bond with the Trident Realm. On the back of the model is a skull, representing the heavy disdain for Undead. Jesse loves the lore in Pannithor and took his task of designing a model that would fit right in. Personally, I love the nod to some of his favorite opponents over the years.
I met Jesse at Adepticon in 2017 where he was matched up against me in round 5. His Ogres took victory in the Dominate scenario over my Twilight Kin setting up a rivalry and deep friendship that will stand the test of time. I’m so incredibly proud of the impact he has had on the thousands of Kings of War fans all over the world. His Mammoth contributions will always be a part of the game.
I’ve always felt that while none of us are here forever, our deeds and actions live on. Many of you have stories and unforgettable interactions with Jesse over the years. Please share them with friends and family and especially those new players you welcome into the game. Always find a way to make your opponent smile and make a lasting memory from your encounter. That’s the best of what Jesse represents. When we first met, he jokingly asked if I could make him famous…
Mission accomplished, buddy.
The Ogre Warlock model will be available from Mantic Games later this year. We recommend a nice coat of glossy finish to make it extra ‘sweaty'
Thanks for sharing the whole post - I had just seen the (great looking) warlock before. Happy to say I got to play Jesse at the first Pax Unplugged, in a slobberknocker of a match that I dominated until his two siegebreaker hordes went on an absolute tear and I think pulled it back to a draw! Super great guy, I'm hoping he can beat cancer into submission too, even if Kyle's language here is pretty dire
Boss Salvage wrote: Thanks for sharing the whole post - I had just seen the (great looking) warlock before. Happy to say I got to play Jesse at the first Pax Unplugged, in a slobberknocker of a match that I dominated until his two siegebreaker hordes went on an absolute tear and I think pulled it back to a draw! Super great guy, I'm hoping he can beat cancer into submission too, even if Kyle's language here is pretty dire
Unfortunately Jesse himself has indicated it’s a matter of time as his body is now too weak for further chemo, and he’s bed-ridden in hospital.
Baragash wrote: Unfortunately Jesse himself has indicated it’s a matter of time as his body is now too weak for further chemo, and he’s bed-ridden in hospital.
Baragash wrote: Unfortunately Jesse himself has indicated it’s a matter of time as his body is now too weak for further chemo, and he’s bed-ridden in hospital.
Thanks for the update. Also fething feth.
For those of you who don't follow any of the main Mantic social media outlets, with much sadness, Jesse is no longer with us.
Ronnie here with a blog I never wanted to have to write and one that I found extremely difficult this morning.
Kings of War has always been about its community.
From the first slow reveal of the elves on the website, ready to take to the field of battle, through the eight or so hardy souls who travelled up to Nottingham to play test the first set of rules – before they were given away free online – for me it is always about the players.
From the first Kickstarter, where the community rallied around and lifted the game to new heights, to the second edition, which welcomed so many faces looking for a new home, we wanted to build that sense of community.
To the tournament scene growing year on year across the world – the UK, then USA, Oz and Europe – supported by growing online content and podcasts, the community did it all. The word of mouth revolution was growing.
But amongst that community some people stand bigger – in every sense. They encapsulate everything good about what gaming is all about – and they share their passion in all the right ways.
One who stood tallest of them all passed away yesterday. Far too young, and too great a loss. In the gaming world he left behind his brother, father and almost everyone who plays in KoW tournaments.
Jesse was Kings of War in the USA. If there was a tournament, he was there – laughing, joking, playing and enjoying. He played the right way – he occasionally didn’t get to take the sportsman’s award home – but only because he ranked in the top 3! You still know everyone there voted him as their best opponent. In between travelling the US and teaching new players – he was making sure the rules committee knew exactly what they needed to change in the rules… would the mammoth have ever got Strider without him? It was all done in the nicest of ways and he even got his own special magic item!
Oh, and between all that he’d be making videos and battle reports for Master Crafted with his good friend Kyle. These would be both funny and informative – designed to educate and entertain about all things Kings of War. Some of his videos had us laughing so hard at HQ – he said the things we never could! One particular favourite among the community is the Clash of Kings review and it continues to be talked about in the office to this day.
We have also sculpted a figure in his honor and we’ll be donating 25% from each model sold to a charity chosen alongside Jesse’s family. Although it will begin shipping in May, we’ve made it available to pre-order today and you can order it below.
Words cannot express the sadness the community feels at his passing. Made even more acute because we were all denied one last chance to game with him over the last year. One last chance to see how gaming should be done!
But Jesse would not want us to remember him sadly. He’d want us to look at the joy he brought, the passion for the game and the community he loved so much.
Scurrier and Shock Troops are Resin upgrades for the plastic models (website says metal, which is a typo)
following units a compatible with each other:
Ratkin Shock Troops
Ratkin Clawshots
Ratkin Hackpaws
Ratkin Scurriers
Veer-Myn Nightcrawlers
Veer-Myn Creepers
Scurrier and Shock Troops are Resin upgrades for the plastic models (website says metal, which is a typo)
following units a compatible with each other:
Ratkin Shock Troops
Ratkin Clawshots
Ratkin Hackpaws
Ratkin Scurriers
Veer-Myn Nightcrawlers
Veer-Myn Creepers
Except for the weapons on the mass rank rats, I'm sure I got all the rest as part of my 2nd edition Deadzone kickstarter. Has kow become scifi? I feel a tad lost.
Yeah, they're re-using a fair few models for the ratkin army to kind of bulk it out. There's plenty of new stuff too. That Daemonspawn thing is amazing, no intention to start ratkin but I'm gonna get one just to paint and maybe use as a greater daemon
Scurrier and Shock Troops are Resin upgrades for the plastic models (website says metal, which is a typo)
following units a compatible with each other:
Ratkin Shock Troops
Ratkin Clawshots
Ratkin Hackpaws
Ratkin Scurriers
Veer-Myn Nightcrawlers
Veer-Myn Creepers
Except for the weapons on the mass rank rats, I'm sure I got all the rest as part of my 2nd edition Deadzone kickstarter. Has kow become scifi? I feel a tad lost.
Ugh.
Ratmen have a relatively long tradition in gaming of being a bit steampunk in their technology, and mantic has a history of reusing tooling but this is a lazy baloney sandwich with no condiments.
At least the first generation of Forge Fathers got new torso's and bits.
This is just sci fi stuff that doesn't even fit the aesthetic. Mantic seemed to be moving up recently but this is a step back for sure.
This is just sci fi stuff that doesn't even fit the aesthetic. Mantic seemed to be moving up recently but this is a step back for sure.
What did you expect ? They don't have the ressources to do a whole army from scrap and sell it all at once.
Be already happy that they made an upgrade pack for their "not storm vermins" units, so that you can build one. Of course, you need to buy the basic plastic kit separately to use the upgrade pack (even though they showed a picture of the full unit on their webstore) but hey why bother over small details like this ?
Besides, while it's true it's plain reusing their SF army for KoW, with a coherent paint scheme and a few conversions here and there, I don't think it will look that bad. The SF army already had a steampunk kind of look, and it can fit the fantasy setting without too many troubles IMHO.
looking at the Tunnel Runner just need some minor details to be less SciFi
on the other hand, 2 similar units with minor differences for Fantasy and SciFi is far beyond what Mantic can do
same for the Nightmares (and here the GW Stormfiends look less Fantasy than the Mantic kit) which are also compatible with the Ogre kits (up to a point, for those who want different weapon arms)
I understand the problem that this is a mixed Steampunk range and a pure Fantasy release
but I am very happy with it
that everything is compatible also add the possibility to use the Fantasy models in Deadzone/Warpath for a more primitve look
the Demonspawn is an amazing model, the basic infantry looks very good and there are no metal parts
Sarouan wrote: Of course, you need to buy the basic plastic kit separately to use the upgrade pack (even though they showed a picture of the full unit on their webstore) but hey why bother over small details like this ?
the full kits are supposed to come later with the next wave as the upgrade kits are mantic shop exclusive
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NinthMusketeer wrote: So those veermyn are actually part of the KoW army? I thought it was some organizational error on the order page.
no, those units that are similar for Ratkin and Veer-Myn use the same models
while the infantry is made to have compatible parts so you can use the Deadzone bits in KoW and vica versa
This is just sci fi stuff that doesn't even fit the aesthetic. Mantic seemed to be moving up recently but this is a step back for sure.
What did you expect ? They don't have the ressources to do a whole army from scrap and sell it all at once.
Be already happy that they made an upgrade pack for their "not storm vermins" units, so that you can build one. Of course, you need to buy the basic plastic kit separately to use the upgrade pack (even though they showed a picture of the full unit on their webstore) but hey why bother over small details like this ?
Besides, while it's true it's plain reusing their SF army for KoW, with a coherent paint scheme and a few conversions here and there, I don't think it will look that bad. The SF army already had a steampunk kind of look, and it can fit the fantasy setting without too many troubles IMHO.
I have no dog in this, so if it's good enough for you by means buy it.
However but what I would "expect" is that they either do up a resin or metal modification parts pack or wait until they have the funds to do a whole new model.
What I did not expect is for a company that seems to be slowly upping it's game to engage in the nonsense of pushing sci fi machine gun monowhweels into a fantasy setting.
I have no dog in this, so if it's good enough for you by means buy it.
Nah, I'm not interested in "not skaven" version of Mantic Games - nor the recycling of their "not 40k skaven" army in their fantasy counterpart.
It's just that I understand why MG is doing it, which is...
However but what I would "expect" is that they either do up a resin or metal modification parts pack or wait until they have the funds to do a whole new model.
...if they did that, they would have put themselves in the exact same problem with Warhammer Fantasy Battle army books showing rules for models that they didn't sell yet.
Simply put, the players go elsewhere to find the models they want to play with the rules. And that's lost sales for Mantic Games.
Moreover, since they already have these models in their SF range, it helps getting rid of the old stock in bundles while giving the feeling to their customers that they are having a great deal. It's a win-win situation for MG, really.
Later, they can always make more "fantasy like" versions with another of their boardgames in the same universe or whatever (can't say it will be Vanguard, since they already release a warband for that system - maybe Vanguard 2.0 or something).
What I did not expect is for a company that seems to be slowly upping it's game to engage in the nonsense of pushing sci fi machine gun monowhweels into a fant
asy setting.
I always said Mantic Games is just a cheap version of GW, and nothing they did recently is giving me the opposite idea.
Yet, the frontier between SF and Fantasy can be blurry sometimes...I mean, if you didn't know these units came from the SF range of Mantic Games, would you really have called it ?
But otherwise, I totally understand your point and it's very valid as well.
Billicus wrote: Yeah, they're re-using a fair few models for the ratkin army to kind of bulk it out. There's plenty of new stuff too. That Daemonspawn thing is amazing, no intention to start ratkin but I'm gonna get one just to paint and maybe use as a greater daemon
However but what I would "expect" is that they either do up a resin or metal modification parts pack or wait until they have the funds to do a whole new model.
...if they did that, they would have put themselves in the exact same problem with Warhammer Fantasy Battle army books showing rules for models that they didn't sell yet.
Simply put, the players go elsewhere to find the models they want to play with the rules. And that's lost sales for Mantic Games.
Moreover, since they already have these models in their SF range, it helps getting rid of the old stock in bundles while giving the feeling to their customers that they are having a great deal. It's a win-win situation for MG, really.
Later, they can always make more "fantasy like" versions with another of their boardgames in the same universe or whatever (can't say it will be Vanguard, since they already release a warband for that system - maybe Vanguard 2.0 or something).
What I did not expect is for a company that seems to be slowly upping it's game to engage in the nonsense of pushing sci fi machine gun monowhweels into a fant
asy setting.
I always said Mantic Games is just a cheap version of GW, and nothing they did recently is giving me the opposite idea.
Yet, the frontier between SF and Fantasy can be blurry sometimes...I mean, if you didn't know these units came from the SF range of Mantic Games, would you really have called it ?
But otherwise, I totally understand your point and it's very valid as well.
Good points. I would suggest that....
-Mantic is already in the place of having LOTS of units in KoW unrepresented and leaving these unrepresented until they get proper models won't hurt perception any more than it already is.
-Rather than a win-win, it's just setting up their buyers for more disappointment. Not only when they get a buch of models that don't really look fantasy, but when the proper models finally are released and they're stuck with either playing with sub-par models or rebuying the new ones. First generation Forgefathers anyone....?
-I totally get crossover in sci-fantasy. I just think it works better when the past is pulled into the future (a'la Warhammer into Rogue Trader) than when sci-fi tech get's dropped into the past.
All that said, you raise a good point about whether folks would notice and in some cases they probably wouldn't. I think the Tangle (possibly minus the minder) and possibly the Nightmares (would look better with alternate weapons sprue though) could drop in ok. However, the Brood Mother, Night Terrors and Runners really stick out even with a fantasy paint job. Like slipping eldar into a wood elf army.
-Mantic is already in the place of having LOTS of units in KoW unrepresented and leaving these unrepresented until they get proper models won't hurt perception any more than it already is.
No, I don't agree with that. It may have worked in the past but at some point, they must show they can't just hide behind that argument forever. There is a limit when even blind fanboyz can't avert gaze from reality anymore. At least, the critical mass of them...which is really what matters about sales.
They're at the point they released a new version of KoW with a core rulebook showing all armies that are nearly complete or totally complete on their webstore. That was the point why Kingdom of Men were removed from the core list and put in the extension books. So it's important for them to keep showing they can support the whole range with Mantic Games models only for one of their core games - it's simply better for them to have all the sales for all the playable units, rather than forcing their loyal community following them for so long to go find elsewhere the missing models for their favorite army.
-Rather than a win-win, it's just setting up their buyers for more disappointment. Not only when they get a buch of models that don't really look fantasy, but when the proper models finally are released and they're stuck with either playing with sub-par models or rebuying the new ones. First generation Forgefathers anyone....?
You don't need to make me remember that ! Though you know, I think you can make really nice elite steampunk dwarves out of some of the SF first generation forgefather range and MG just showed it wouldn't bother them that much with what they did with the ratkin. And Kodos' reaction on this topic is a proof that it's not that important for true MG fanboyz.
-I totally get crossover in sci-fantasy. I just think it works better when the past is pulled into the future (a'la Warhammer into Rogue Trader) than when sci-fi tech get's dropped into the past.
Really depends what degree of SF, I believe. If it's "40kSF", it's gothic enough and weird tech-sorcery that it can be put in a fantasy setting with minimal effort (it's not a hazard if some 40k miniatures are converted in AoS armies as well as the opposite). For the veermyn, it's steampunk enough to work. If it was federation "not space marines" being used for Kingdom of Men, yeah, that wouldn't have worked the same at all IMHO.
All that said, you raise a good point about whether folks would notice and in some cases they probably wouldn't. I think the Tangle (possibly minus the minder) and possibly the Nightmares (would look better with alternate weapons sprue though) could drop in ok. However, the Brood Mother, Night Terrors and Runners really stick out even with a fantasy paint job. Like slipping eldar into a wood elf army.
More like exodites in a wood elf army. You can tell something is weird, but it's still close enough that you can find a way to say "yeah I can make it work still".
That said, the SF units are also older (not as bad as the elves, of course ! ) so maybe it's that that shows.
I am thinking I might get some of the Ratkin basic troops and see about converting them into Orcs so I can have some variety in my troops, because at the moment there are 5 melee units which all use the same variant body types (well, apart from the Greatax, which have only 2 bodies, but I have been using them with the regulars to give a broader span across them).
Just chop off the legs and replace them and the heads and they should work pretty nicely.
Overall, for me there are more winners (Shock Troops, every new Ratkin character but especially the Brute and Scudz) than losers (Veer-myn ports of very good units - Brood Moms in particular, but not Nightmares since they suck anyway). If I didn't already have a Skaven army, I'd be tempted to make an all-Mantic rat army, to prove it can be done ... but at these prices, I can't justify basically rebuilding an army just to support the company. The minis aren't that mindblowing tho I appreciate having so many options represented in some Mantic form, even with sci-fi ports, and I also appreciate having another army-scale source for rat-people. It's a rare theme to see in bulk, with Skaven really being the only player (and preeeeeeetty iffy at times - see the rat ogre discussion a few pages back).
Worth noting that the Mutant Rat Fiend is not pictured here, and it's one of the better sculpts of the release.
Fenriswulf wrote: I am thinking I might get some of the Ratkin basic troops and see about converting them into Orcs so I can have some variety in my troops, because at the moment there are 5 melee units which all use the same variant body types (well, apart from the Greatax, which have only 2 bodies, but I have been using them with the regulars to give a broader span across them).
Somewhat ironically, the original Mantic studio Ratkin army used Veer-myn troops with Orc arms, and it worked weirdly well! I was among those who did a double take until the magic was revealed.
Compel wrote: At the very least I can't imagine it'll be worse than combining various GW miniature generations together.
QFT. Mantic rats actually remind me quite a bit of the pre-IOB Skaven, but an alternate timeline where instead of horrific rat-dog plastics you got pretty decent plastics that matched the metals, and instead of unsupported gaps in the line that you were expected to convert yourself or use ancient OOP sculpts for you got 40k models as suggested alternatives
Armada is definitely using up their in house casting ressources
the demand is way higher than Mantic expected and they focus on full filling those orders
It’s a very hit or miss release. There are some really nice models, and some that’s clearly sci-fi models. But I feel mantic couldn’t really spend big bucks on this range, as they are realistic enough to know 90% of players do, and will continue to use GW shaven for this army. If they can get those players to pick up one or two of the new resins, then they have made some sales out of players that weren’t buying any of their models.
Tamereth wrote: ...But I feel mantic couldn’t really spend big bucks on this range, as they are realistic enough to know 90% of players do, and will continue to use GW shaven for this army...
I feel like I'm in some kind of weird information vacuum here. This launch is objectively larger than any from this edition, even discounting the sci-fi ports, yet people keep saying Mantic isn't doing much.
Tamereth wrote: ...But I feel mantic couldn’t really spend big bucks on this range, as they are realistic enough to know 90% of players do, and will continue to use GW shaven for this army...
I feel like I'm in some kind of weird information vacuum here. This launch is objectively larger than any from this edition, even discounting the sci-fi ports, yet people keep saying Mantic isn't doing much.
Certainly because the whole list isn't released yet, just a part of it. It's like seeing the whole picture of full releases of Northern Alliance before they were all out and saying it's the biggest release yet. At that game, I can also say the elves releases are the biggest as well.
Also, the brute enforcer comes from League of Infamy, it's not a new miniature.
Tamereth wrote: ...But I feel mantic couldn’t really spend big bucks on this range, as they are realistic enough to know 90% of players do, and will continue to use GW shaven for this army...
I feel like I'm in some kind of weird information vacuum here. This launch is objectively larger than any from this edition, even discounting the sci-fi ports, yet people keep saying Mantic isn't doing much.
Certainly because the whole list isn't released yet, just a part of it. It's like seeing the whole picture of full releases of Northern Alliance before they were all out and saying it's the biggest release yet. At that game, I can also say the elves releases are the biggest as well.
Also, the brute enforcer comes from League of Infamy, it's not a new miniature.
That looks like two different models to me. A repose, sure, but it's still putting two different miniatures into production.
EDIT: also, in terms of the 'game'. There's only one confirmed elf release we've seen. Feel free to post your list of more releases than this current ratkin one to prove me wrong.
EDIT: also, in terms of the 'game'. There's only one confirmed elf release we've seen. Feel free to post your list of more releases than this current ratkin one to prove me wrong.
Not one :
Those come also from League of Infamy. There are good chances that Mantic Games will release a version for KoW later, once they can. I would sure be happy to have these new elves replacing the old ones.
Besides, since time is irrelevant for you to determine what are truly new releases, then I choose the whole elf range from KoW. It was "new" at some time in the former years, after all.
No point to put a list when all the units from the said list aren't available yet.
EDIT: also, in terms of the 'game'. There's only one confirmed elf release we've seen. Feel free to post your list of more releases than this current ratkin one to prove me wrong.
Not one :
Those come also from League of Infamy. There are good chances that Mantic Games will release a version for KoW later, once they can. I would sure be happy to have these new elves replacing the old ones.
Besides, since time is irrelevant for you to determine what are truly new releases, then I choose the whole elf range from KoW. It was "new" at some time in the former years, after all.
No point to put a list when all the units from the said list aren't available yet.
Firstly, do you have images or some confirmation from Mantic that they will be releasing different versions from these elves to replace the existing ones. Anything at all? Because everything I've posted has been shown publicly. I do not believe Mantic has confirmed replacement elevs or shown anything outside of the LofI plastics or new Drakons, but feel free to prove me wrong.
So that's some sketchy logic on timing, but I'll remove the units that aren't on pre-order right now, or haven't just been released.
Da Boss wrote: I feel like they really missed a trick here by not launching with really cool looking rat ogres. The sci fi ports are a let down.
Better to keep your expectations low with Mantic Games. It fits their budget for making new stuff, and sometimes you have a good surprise that way.
That's probably the best advice I've read so far. I think I let my expectations go up a bit higher than I should have.
Still disappointing that you have to look close and make sure you're not buying half-donkeyed ports of sci-fi sculpts (don't buy based off cell phone pics...), but it is true that there are gems to be had if you buy selectively.
Da Boss wrote: The mawbeast is still so ugly that I can't consider any unit that is riding it. What a shame!
On the other hand, it's thematic if it's ugly, since it's basically a goblin hound.
Yet, it's coherent with the rest of KoW's whole cartoonish design. And even I can say it's still an improvement from the old Mawbeast with their dislocated jaws.
The war machines have a very "first world war" vybe, to me. I'm not a fan, but it still passes to me.
The monster is nice...I mean, fearsome. Which means it does its job.
The mawbeast design just doesn't land for me. If it wants to be a wolf, it should look more wolfy, if it wants to be a squig, it should look more squiggy. Squigwolf is not something I can get behind.
Squifwolf is the squiggiest Squig they could to without getting into trouble
for me it is neither ugly nor good, it is was it is and I am not a fan of Squigs either
both are beasts suited for Goblins that are cartoonish anyway thats it (and a wolf would be already to serious to be a real Goblin mount here)
not a friend of the WW1 theme as well but Mantic said very early on that the new Ratkin will follow that to give a Steampunk, Trenchwarfare vibe that is not there in the other ranges but fits how they see the Ratkin working in battle
but the tank still looks cool and one of the better bigger warmachines I have seen latley for fantasy rats
I just find it weird that the only civilization on Mantica with the ability to machine steel into guns has to resort to ramshackle, kludgy versions of technology they themselves apparently invented.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I just find it weird that the only civilization on Mantica with the ability to machine steel into guns has to resort to ramshackle, kludgy versions of technology they themselves apparently invented.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I just find it weird that the only civilization on Mantica with the ability to machine steel into guns has to resort to ramshackle, kludgy versions of technology they themselves apparently invented.
Dwarfs have mecha and plenty of guns?
Machine guns are a big step up in terms of technology though. Any faction having weapons that advanced would dominate Pannithor "The Last Samurai" style.
I assume they're not actually machine guns, but it does not sit well TBH.
Well, there are flame thrower and rocket launchers in the game, and this thing looks like a machine gun but it does not mean it works like a modern one (same like an original Galting is different from a modern Mini-Gun as well as from a multi barrel flintlock)
And rats having machine guns in fantasy is nothing new
GW's Skaven have Gatling Guns for a very long time now, and no one really ever cared that with this guns they should dominate the world that was, as well as Age of Sigmar
Cant say Im a fan of Mantic stuff, but that Rat Unclean One looks like a sweet model.
If fact, if I met a living one in the models actual size I would be terrified, so it stands to reason, as a giant monster "in game"... pretty gruesome oponent.
kodos wrote: Well, there are flame thrower and rocket launchers in the game, and this thing looks like a machine gun but it does not mean it works like a modern one (same like an original Galting is different from a modern Mini-Gun as well as from a multi barrel flintlock)
And rats having machine guns in fantasy is nothing new
GW's Skaven have Gatling Guns for a very long time now, and no one really ever cared that with this guns they should dominate the world that was, as well as Age of Sigmar
I like the new models
Worth noting that the Skaven often use their best weapons on each other - not sure about their mantic equivalents?
There was a good discussion on real fantasy warfare in a D&D massed combat splatbook of all places, that claimed ranked combat would never have even evolved in a world where a dragon can roast 200 dudes in one go but trivial low level magic communication could allow modern military squad based formations easily. You know, if you wanted another level of realism that needs to be dismissed in orde to enjoy the setting Kinda like how cell phone use lagged like 10 years behind in detective movies because they coulnd't figure out how to write a story that wouldn't be ruined by instant communication and we just had to not think about it.
kodos wrote: Well, there are flame thrower and rocket launchers in the game, and this thing looks like a machine gun but it does not mean it works like a modern one (same like an original Galting is different from a modern Mini-Gun as well as from a multi barrel flintlock)
And rats having machine guns in fantasy is nothing new
GW's Skaven have Gatling Guns for a very long time now, and no one really ever cared that with this guns they should dominate the world that was, as well as Age of Sigmar
Skaven Gatling guns have a hand crank and are seriously unreliable. Plus you have the idea that Skaven would dominate the world if they stopped fighting among themselves.
I have been mulling over the question of 'whats the difference' in my head between a Fantasy Maxim gun and Fantasy Gatling gun and why I seriously dislike one, but not the other.
The Maxim gun (Gatling gun as well) were used against native populations as well as against other industrial powers. So in a Fantasy setting, it should not too much of a stretch imagining Rat Machine guns against populations armed with bows and heavy armour?
I think it comes down to how iconic the weapon is and how much of a game changer it was historically, and that slapping one into a setting should have implications for the entire setting.
lord_blackfang wrote: There was a good discussion on real fantasy warfare in a D&D massed combat splatbook of all places, that claimed ranked combat would never have even evolved in a world where a dragon can roast 200 dudes in one go but trivial low level magic communication could allow modern military squad based formations easily. You know, if you wanted another level of realism that needs to be dismissed in orde to enjoy the setting Kinda like how cell phone use lagged like 10 years behind in detective movies because they coulnd't figure out how to write a story that wouldn't be ruined by instant communication and we just had to not think about it.
Its a really interesting topic - alots going to depend on how common the magic and dragons are I think - same with steampunk tech - which is also a major part of Warhammer.
Also the Skaven had small scale Nukes (Doom Spheres), Energy weapons - both artillery, vehicle and Rat Ogre based and even Man (rat) portable warp lightning, warpfire throwers, poison gas throwers, Long range instant commnication, underground rail networks... These new models would fit lovely in the lore and likely be used on......other Skaven - cos Skaven
Chaos Dwarfs had huge rockets and mechanised weapon platforms.
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, looks pretty good.
