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Sarouan wrote:
Just my personnal thoughts here

-Vanguard has not been the entry point that Mantic hoped, ambush is to fill that role.

Not surprising. Game was too unnecessarily complicated to be a real entry point for new players and KoW's background as attachment for its universe is not appealing enough to make a proper bridge for that. Vanguard was more often presented to "use any miniature you want" as a stand alone game than an entry point of KoW products.

I used to really like Vanguard. I still do, but I used to, too

The game has some tremendous flaws though, to the point I wish it were higher on the remake priority list. It is NOT a "use any miniatures you have" game, people try to bill it that way but it really isn't. Firstly, Vanguard requires the Mantic specific square basing in the specific sizes. You can house rule to use round bases and mark LoS on the sides, but a couple of the rules like template attacks require even heavier workarounds that are more trouble than they're worth. Secondly, and more importantly, Vanguard armylists are too tied into their parent KoW armylists, which makes sense now that I realize they intended the game to funnel players into KoW, but it's very limiting as a standalone product. Vanguard lists basically have every unit listing with the specific equipment that that unit has in KoW. You can then buy additional equipment, but there's no base model and base equipment list (only the additional equipment list) so it can be hard to match a non-mantic models because of that built-in equipment. Elves for example: there's no base elf infantry, you have to buy Spearmen and Archers. So to take a 2H weapon elf like a Swordmaster or White Lion, you need to buy a spearman and add a great weapon, but he's still a spearman with the spearman specific ranked attack rule as there's no way to drop that equipment. You also can't take a basic sword and shield elf, you again need to buy a spearmen and add a heavy shield and pretend he has no spear. There's also no crossover from the board games, I tried to make an undead and an Abyss warband from the huge amount of Dungeon Saga minis I have, but the armylists don't even have options for some of the board game units and the basing is wrong since all Dungeon Saga is all on 25mm while KoW undead are on 20mm. You can work around it, all of it, but it's another thing to work around and there's SO many other miniature agnostic skirmish games out there that don't require workarounds that it's hard to get non-KoW players excited about Vanguard.

Vanguard could be an amazing standalone game with a few tweaks to the rules and armylists, but I don't see it as a real bridge into KoW, if that's what Mantic wanted it to be it explains a lot of the problems. Mantic is much better off focusing on Ambush being a good ruleset in that regard, hopefully that frees up Vanguard to be it's own game instead of being an intended stepping stone

My experience with Mantic boardgames is that they over saturated their market and left a solid “second best” impression. The only game of theirs I actually got to play was Star Saga, which was fine. The tile components were cheap and annoying, but the plastic tables and computer terminals were fun.

But the next time I went to play a quest style boardgame, it was Shadows of Brimstone. SOB has quality tiles, quality cards, and covers a lot more bases in terms of expansions and monsters. And it came out first.

Villain Saga sounded fun and up my alley, but the miniatures alone were not worth it and the game was too late and likely too flimsy to get my pledge.

Mars Attacks was really good, but it's more a minimalist wargame than a board game (think Monsterpocalypse).

Star Saga I ran once and hated it, but I do hate all crawlers.

Sarouan wrote:

I do have them, I still have my fire and water elementals. The most recent are my halfling knights and hunters (with their resin upgrade sprue). Those last ones...let's say I do also remember the bubbles ruining some details and too thin parts of bows / arrows making me break a few of them while glueing them (with lots of cursing words).

yeah, model quality, not design and a 3d sculptor has no influence on material quality
getting better sculptors does not improve quality in casting, therefore you need better caster (and for the plastics, mantic got one and for the Resin you soon can do it yourself)

Sarouan wrote:

Oh far from all. That's why I wrote "game companies" in general. Sure, Mantic Games does draw from GW crowd specifically mainly because of its history and its own products. Also they're on the same island than their big brother, which does play a part as well, like it or not.

But other miniature producing companies - often on much smaller scales, let's be honest - do also draw a lot from RPG players, most famous of all being Dungeons and Dragons, and the huge market of historical games.

mainly thinking of wargaming/miniature gaming companies
board games and scale models are a very different market

but most of the former do not go out to new players or have games made that are for those that have never touched a wargame/miniature game before as even most starters require basic knowledge of the hobby to get things done

 Kalamadea wrote:

Vanguard could be an amazing standalone game with a few tweaks to the rules and armylists, but I don't see it as a real bridge into KoW, if that's what Mantic wanted it to be it explains a lot of the problems. Mantic is much better off focusing on Ambush being a good ruleset in that regard, hopefully that frees up Vanguard to be it's own game instead of being an intended stepping stone

agree, Vanguard would be better off as stand alone skirmish, and Ambush a much better way for a gateway game

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
Are the EoD plastic models as bad as they look in the photos or is it just a poor paint job?

Plus how are Mantic plastics nowadays? I enjoyed the early days of their Undead and Elves but was burned by the atrocious original Basilean infantry and have never been back to the KOW range since.

Whether they're bad or not is a matter for debate, but everything seems to indicate they're exactly like the pictures.

All these recent reveals I'm seeing things I like here and there, but overall, I just don't see an army that I like enough to want to collect/paint an entire army of. Northern Alliance is the closest, but not in the running as I've already got Varangur.

Love the Game, but can't seem to get excited about the models.

I went all in on the Troll&Toad not-Khemri KS and I'm not sorry I did, even if they're resin.

 Eilif wrote:

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
Are the EoD plastic models as bad as they look in the photos or is it just a poor paint job?

Plus how are Mantic plastics nowadays? I enjoyed the early days of their Undead and Elves but was burned by the atrocious original Basilean infantry and have never been back to the KOW range since.

Whether they're bad or not is a matter for debate, but everything seems to indicate they're exactly like the pictures.

All these recent reveals I'm seeing things I like here and there, but overall, I just don't see an army that I like enough to want to collect/paint an entire army of. Northern Alliance is the closest, but not in the running as I've already got Varangur.

Love the Game, but can't seem to get excited about the models.

They are decently detailed plastics.

Sarouan wrote:


So I can tell in comparison to what does, let's say, Artisan Guild's 3d models, I can totally say Mantic Games models do pale in comparison in term of quality and design (bubbles in resin, I can also do it myself with my 3D printer for cheaper than what I bought them on Mantic Games' online shop, import taxes included).

Saying you can print stuff for cheaper than RRP is kind of a moot point. That's true of any manufacturer. It's like saying you can paint models at home for less than hiring a commission painter - of course you can. That doesn't mean that the price is too expensive. You're comparing two different things at two different costs. Congratulations, you've just identified how business works.

 sukura636 wrote:

Sarouan wrote:


So I can tell in comparison to what does, let's say, Artisan Guild's 3d models, I can totally say Mantic Games models do pale in comparison in term of quality and design (bubbles in resin, I can also do it myself with my 3D printer for cheaper than what I bought them on Mantic Games' online shop, import taxes included).

Saying you can print stuff for cheaper than RRP is kind of a moot point. That's true of any manufacturer. It's like saying you can paint models at home for less than hiring a commission painter - of course you can. That doesn't mean that the price is too expensive. You're comparing two different things at two different costs. Congratulations, you've just identified how business works.

That's true, but it bears noting that the cost for purchasing printed 3d printed figures has dropped and the cost of Mantic figures has risen, such that in many cases the 3d printed figures are even cheaper than Mantic.

That's trouble for Mantic since in some cases the 3d printed figures are as good or better than Mantic in terms of sculpting, or may be available in what is percieved as a more desirable style. Mantic still has the advantage of producing mostly polystyrene figures which is still a highly desirable material, but they're not alone in that either as Northstar (Oathmark and Frostrgrave) and WGA are on the rise and producing quality HIPS figures that are as cheap or less. None of this to say Mantic makes a bad product or is necessarily in danger, but we are looking at a market where just being cheap isn't enough anymore.

When I realized I could get 3d printed line troop figures (Chaos warriors in this case) of high quality for around a $1.25 each, it was clear something was changing.

 Eilif wrote:

 sukura636 wrote:

Sarouan wrote:


So I can tell in comparison to what does, let's say, Artisan Guild's 3d models, I can totally say Mantic Games models do pale in comparison in term of quality and design (bubbles in resin, I can also do it myself with my 3D printer for cheaper than what I bought them on Mantic Games' online shop, import taxes included).

Saying you can print stuff for cheaper than RRP is kind of a moot point. That's true of any manufacturer. It's like saying you can paint models at home for less than hiring a commission painter - of course you can. That doesn't mean that the price is too expensive. You're comparing two different things at two different costs. Congratulations, you've just identified how business works.

That's true, but it bears noting that the cost for purchasing printed 3d printed figures has dropped and the cost of Mantic figures has risen, such that in many cases the 3d printed figures are even cheaper than Mantic.

That's trouble for Mantic since in some cases the 3d printed figures are as good or better than Mantic in terms of sculpting, or may be available in what is percieved as a more desirable style. Mantic still has the advantage of producing mostly polystyrene figures which is still a highly desirable material, but they're not alone in that either as Northstar (Oathmark and Frostrgrave) and WGA are on the rise and producing quality HIPS figures that are as cheap or less. None of this to say Mantic makes a bad product or is necessarily in danger, but we are looking at a market where just being cheap isn't enough anymore.

When I realized I could get 3d printed line troop figures (Chaos warriors in this case) of high quality for around a $1.25 each, it was clear something was changing.

That doesn't exactly counter my point. You can get 3D printed models or likewise 3D print models yourself for less than most companies charge because certain overheads aren't present in those cases. Packaging, retail, etc. Is it good for you? Yes. Does it mean that x company is over charging? Not really.

Add into that that 3D printing doesn't really have production concerns as much as any other materials and once again, you're comparing apples to oranges and asking why the apple is bad at being the orange. Because they're different.

Most 3D shops are cheap because they are a hobby, not a business
and that you can print yourself for cheaper, well you don't have to pay someone for the work either

and cheap plastic is nothing new, not even cheap fantasy plastic and WGA or Northstar is as much competing with Mantic as is Victrix or Perry

but the argument was that model quality is better with 3D print, which of course if you do themat home a print as long as you get one that is perfect (which can be the first or the 10th)

 Eilif wrote:
That's true, but it bears noting that the cost for purchasing printed 3d printed figures has dropped and the cost of Mantic figures has risen, such that in many cases the 3d printed figures are even cheaper than Mantic.

That's trouble for Mantic since in some cases the 3d printed figures are as good or better than Mantic in terms of sculpting, or may be available in what is percieved as a more desirable style. Mantic still has the advantage of producing mostly polystyrene figures which is still a highly desirable material, but they're not alone in that either as Northstar (Oathmark and Frostrgrave) and WGA are on the rise and producing quality HIPS figures that are as cheap or less. None of this to say Mantic makes a bad product or is necessarily in danger, but we are looking at a market where just being cheap isn't enough anymore.

When I realized I could get 3d printed line troop figures (Chaos warriors in this case) of high quality for around a $1.25 each, it was clear something was changing.

Exactly my point. At least GW can still put its own quality / brand on the balance, but Mantic Games has nothing of the sort. Their KoW line is desperatly generic fantasy miniatures, and their lore is a joke. As for their quality...average isn't a strong point enough to swoon the customers. Especially since you're meant to build and paint a very high number of them, so if you're not enthousiasmed by them, you will struggle finishing the army (unless you hire someone else to do it in your place ).

 kodos wrote:
Most 3D shops are cheap because they are a hobby, not a business

False. If they're shops, they're a business. And businesses must follow laws in their countries. Sure, some may illegally do it without all the taxes and all...but that's illegal. That's like selling Mantic miniatures "fallen from a truck" at dirt cheap prices.

Prices are low simply because competition is fierce and numerous. Law of the market.

and that you can print yourself for cheaper, well you don't have to pay someone for the work either

Indeed, it's even cheaper if you own your own 3D printer.

And honestly ? For regimental games like KoW that asks a fething ton of miniatures...that's precisely the kind of situation when investing in one is the question that can seriously be asked. If you just play to skirmish games and use a dozen miniatures from time to time, it's not worth the hassle. But if you have to build and paint 250+ miniatures...maybe cutting the costs with production isn't such a bad idea, in the end. A small 3d printer is quickly funded in that case, even if you use it only for yourself.

KoW is a game with a heavy time consuming hobby and asking for quite a lot of ressources, that's exactly what 3D printing is meant for.

and cheap plastic is nothing new, not even cheap fantasy plastic and WGA or Northstar is as much competing with Mantic as is Victrix or Perry

Yes, that as well. They're not in a very good situation for quite a lot of time now, and if they (or their fans) don't even aknowledge the problem...welp, they'll be the next on the list to go, that's all.

but the argument was that model quality is better with 3D print, which of course if you do themat home a print as long as you get one that is perfect (which can be the first or the 10th)

Actually has more to do with the 3D printer maintenance than random luck.

Mantic’s issue is not that their plastics are generic, but that they are NOT generic. Oathmark makes generic plastics. WGA make generic plastics. Oathmark and WGA both make orcs/goblins so similar and bland it’s hard to tell them apart. Mantic’s orcs are often criticized for not fitting in with the more generic model lines. Mantic’s Halflings and Tomb Kings skeletons and Dwarfs and Elfs all have issues with broad appeal because they have a specific design aesthetic that doesn’t fit in with generic fantasy ranges.

And their lore is better than most non-GW fantasy games’ lore.

Sarouan wrote:
False. If they're shops, they're a business. And businesses must follow laws in their countries. Sure, some may illegally do it without all the taxes and all...but that's illegal. That's like selling Mantic miniatures "fallen from a truck" at dirt cheap prices.

Prices are low simply because competition is fierce and numerous. Law of the market.

those that are a business are not cheap, not even with the numerous competition
and this has nothing to do with paying taxes, just because it is a hobby does not mean you don't pay taxes from additional income

and for most it is just that, additional income made by a hobby, in the garage. they don't calculate for energy, time or investments, just material cost and a small profit

those that are a full grown business, and make their living from it and/or have employees to pay, 3D prints are more expensive than regular Resin casts simply because 3D printing is the most expensive way for mass-production and only works if you expect very low sales over time

A couple functional notes, as a person with a 3D printer who has printed armies for KOW:

If you don't have a printer already, I'd say printing your first army costs about the same as buying it from Mantic (and less than GW, which is one of the most expensive ways you can buy an army while also being the easiest). This includes the cost of the printer, the resin, the files, the misprints and all the extra stuff you didn't expect you'd need but definitely will.

If you do already have a printer, a full army probably costs like $50-100, depending on how much you're paying for files and how much/what resin you use.

Despite having a printer, I still choose to buy traditional models at times, because I can buy them from my LGS, don't have to wait for them to print, don't have to clean up the mess from them, and working with plastic or cast resin has its appeal. Plus there are still some genuinely cool sculpts being produced traditionally (Mierce often, GW for their smaller games, even Mantic occasionally).

However one of the reasons I got into printing is that I've cleaned up mold lines for decades and if there's one thing 3D printed minis don't have, it's mold lines

Speaking of, strong chance I'll go in on the Mantic Ogres, as the prices are better than expected, the material has been improved, the sculpts are good, and I feel like I owe it to the company to do a Mantic army at some point

EDIT: I actually like what Shieldwolf is putting out for mass fantasy armies. Bit rough and ready but good price and quality with some life to it.

Calling what Mantic miniatures have an "aesthetic" is a bit generous, I feel. They tend to look like they are drawing from the same source material as GW, but have never seen that material and have only had it vaguely described to them. The not-Tomb Kings are the most blatant example of this, they look like the sculptor tried to go for a slight egyptian theme, but had never seen anything egyptian, they inferred what real world egyptian looks like from looking at Tomb Kings. They're not derivative of Tomb Kings but they are derivative of whatever Mantic imagines Tomb Kings are derivative of.

They don’t have the big head crests or the headband-and-flaps look that define tomb kings. They are definitely trying to make Egyptian-flavored minis, but they have deliberately gone in a different direction, with full helmets, armor and tabards. They look more like they are inspired by old BSG and later Stargate seasons than actual history, though;I’ll give you that.

But generic? I don’t see it. They would have been better served with a more bare aesthetic, naked skellies with Egyptian head cloths or Tut masks.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:Mantic’s issue is not that their plastics are generic, but that they are NOT generic.

Yes, exactly. They're meant to be tied to their KoW brand, but they don't feel that way at all.

And their lore is better than most non-GW fantasy games’ lore.

Which is why no one remembers them too.

kodos wrote:those that are a business are not cheap, not even with the numerous competition
and this has nothing to do with paying taxes, just because it is a hobby does not mean you don't pay taxes from additional income

and for most it is just that, additional income made by a hobby, in the garage. they don't calculate for energy, time or investments, just material cost and a small profit

those that are a full grown business, and make their living from it and/or have employees to pay, 3D prints are more expensive than regular Resin casts simply because 3D printing is the most expensive way for mass-production and only works if you expect very low sales over time

Nope, some shops do base their business on mass production - they in fact encourage that by making reductions if you buy a bundle of same miniatures at the same size (easier to produce if everything is standardized already, which is often a plus-value from the most professionnal of them).

They're sure different from the shops that use 3D printing as a side business with selling regular games / boardgames, but they do exist as well. There are a lot of offers on the market, depending on where you are.

But that's actually a fair important point with here :

Boss Salvage wrote:A couple functional notes, as a person with a 3D printer who has printed armies for KOW:

If you don't have a printer already, I'd say printing your first army costs about the same as buying it from Mantic (and less than GW, which is one of the most expensive ways you can buy an army while also being the easiest). This includes the cost of the printer, the resin, the files, the misprints and all the extra stuff you didn't expect you'd need but definitely will.

If you do already have a printer, a full army probably costs like $50-100, depending on how much you're paying for files and how much/what resin you use.

Despite having a printer, I still choose to buy traditional models at times, because I can buy them from my LGS, don't have to wait for them to print, don't have to clean up the mess from them, and working with plastic or cast resin has its appeal. Plus there are still some genuinely cool sculpts being produced traditionally (Mierce often, GW for their smaller games, even Mantic occasionally).

However one of the reasons I got into printing is that I've cleaned up mold lines for decades and if there's one thing 3D printed minis don't have, it's mold lines

...and that's the main problem with Mantic Games. It depends the degree of fanboyism their customers are, to be dedicated to buy their miniatures even when the plus value compared to 3D printing isn't that much...

...especially when you don't have a LGS near your home selling them. Because when you have to pay supplementary taxes and wait more time before you get your miniatures, that question is much more struggling.

We're coming to this, in the end. In Europe, that problem has been made even more relevant with Brexit and import taxes. GW can absorb them by themselves and their own shops...but not Mantic Games. They're still stuck on their island, and depends on independant sellers to sell their stuff.

Let's just say in France (and Belgium), that part has been burned hard with the disaster with Victoria Games. Rest of Europe isn't looking well.

lord_blackfang wrote:Calling what Mantic miniatures have an "aesthetic" is a bit generous, I feel. They tend to look like they are drawing from the same source material as GW, but have never seen that material and have only had it vaguely described to them. The not-Tomb Kings are the most blatant example of this, they look like the sculptor tried to go for a slight egyptian theme, but had never seen anything egyptian, they inferred what real world egyptian looks like from looking at Tomb Kings. They're not derivative of Tomb Kings but they are derivative of whatever Mantic imagines Tomb Kings are derivative of.

Yep, my feeling too.

Halflings and ogres are nice, don't misunderstand me...but well...it feels like a commission made by a random 3D sculptor who has a vague idea, but no strong design behind other than "smaller humans but with child proportions" and "bulkier humans with rasta hair for females".

Oh! It's actually not easy to get Mantic from my LGS, I was more gesturing toward GW being extremely easy to buy locally. When I (rarely) get Mantic stuff it's from online sellers, tho one LGS here is getting better about taking my club's preorders for the yearly books, and they stocked Armada for the launch, even if that game has failed to stick the landing with my club.

As for the Empire of Dust, I always got 'Star Gate but make it chunky' vibes from Mantic's sculpts and less 'The Mummy but I flipped through a Rome / Egypt history book once' shtick that the Dub's neo-Egyptian Undead have.

AND since we've resurrected the old Mantic vs Games Workshop horse, I'll note that Dub has once again vacuously promoted The Old World the very week that Kings of War's latest book has hit wide (American) distribution. Nothing new to say except talking about the armies not present in AOS (Brets, Tomb Kings) and showing a map again. Class act is class. I feel like Fantasy holdouts might actually get a game in the next five years if KOW keeps being successful

Removed - rule #1

 sukura636 wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

 sukura636 wrote:

Sarouan wrote:


So I can tell in comparison to what does, let's say, Artisan Guild's 3d models, I can totally say Mantic Games models do pale in comparison in term of quality and design (bubbles in resin, I can also do it myself with my 3D printer for cheaper than what I bought them on Mantic Games' online shop, import taxes included).

Saying you can print stuff for cheaper than RRP is kind of a moot point. That's true of any manufacturer. It's like saying you can paint models at home for less than hiring a commission painter - of course you can. That doesn't mean that the price is too expensive. You're comparing two different things at two different costs. Congratulations, you've just identified how business works.

That's true, but it bears noting that the cost for purchasing printed 3d printed figures has dropped and the cost of Mantic figures has risen, such that in many cases the 3d printed figures are even cheaper than Mantic.

That's trouble for Mantic since in some cases the 3d printed figures are as good or better than Mantic in terms of sculpting, or may be available in what is percieved as a more desirable style. Mantic still has the advantage of producing mostly polystyrene figures which is still a highly desirable material, but they're not alone in that either as Northstar (Oathmark and Frostrgrave) and WGA are on the rise and producing quality HIPS figures that are as cheap or less. None of this to say Mantic makes a bad product or is necessarily in danger, but we are looking at a market where just being cheap isn't enough anymore.

When I realized I could get 3d printed line troop figures (Chaos warriors in this case) of high quality for around a $1.25 each, it was clear something was changing.

That doesn't exactly counter my point. You can get 3D printed models or likewise 3D print models yourself for less than most companies charge because certain overheads aren't present in those cases. Packaging, retail, etc. Is it good for you? Yes. Does it mean that x company is over charging? Not really.

Add into that that 3D printing doesn't really have production concerns as much as any other materials and once again, you're comparing apples to oranges and asking why the apple is bad at being the orange. Because they're different.

I agree that nothing I put forth indicates that Mantic is overcharging. I don't think that in most cases they are. My point is more that the market for affordable minis is getting more competitive.

As for apples, oranges, whatever I won't argue the semantics except to say that a company's overhead, production methods, packaging, etc is largely immaterial to the buyer who is open to alternate figures sources. The bottom line for the customer is that if you want cheap wargaming figures, there are more options than there were a couple years ago (when Mantic was almost the cheapest source out there) and the quality of those options has risen considerably.

For the purchaser who is happy with the Mantic sculpts -which are generally good figures and representative of Mantic's fluff- and appreciates that they are less expensive than many other companies, Mantic is a good bet and the likely choice. For the buyer who has no particular connection to Mantic's fluff, and may not value the packaging and retail presence (though those are improving as well from alternate producers), other manufacturers and 3d print providers are undercutting the price point that Mantic formerly had a near monopoly over and simultaneously producing figures that are arguably as-good-or-better in quality.

What is it with a small minority of people trying to push everyone to 3D print. 3D printing is a hobby in and of itself, I don't have time or desire to do it. Neither do many wargamers. Hell most wargamers I know find painting an army a chore.

Back to the news the new ogres look really nice. They have moved away from the tiny legged almost comical look of the originals and thats good on all accounts. Mantics model design and quality has definitely improved over the last couple of years and KoW has become much more popular. I hope they have the funding to keep putting out new plastics like this without resorting to kickstarters all the time.

 Tamereth wrote:
What is it with a small minority of people trying to push everyone to 3D print. 3D printing is a hobby in and of itself, I don't have time or desire to do it. Neither do many wargamers. Hell most wargamers I know find painting an army a chore.

Back to the news the new ogres look really nice. They have moved away from the tiny legged almost comical look of the originals and thats good on all accounts. Mantics model design and quality has definitely improved over the last couple of years and KoW has become much more popular. I hope they have the funding to keep putting out new plastics like this without resorting to kickstarters all the time.

100% agree with all of this. Yes, I have been printing for years and have done whole armies that look spectacular, but it will never replace the aspect of stores selling minis. You hit it on the head - not everyone wants to get into an extra hobby (rabbit hole) of 3D prininting. And, it is a DEEP rabbit hole!

Yup. I have a printer. It's fun to print one-offs, but I have absolutely zero interest in printing entire armies with it, both for the hassle involved in that quantity of printing and for the fact that the end result winds up being resin, which is not ideal for gaming miniatures. Given a choice, I'll choose to buy plastic over printing, because it's less work and more durable. (And that's not even going down the rabbit hole of 3rd party miniatures sculpted by hobbyists with no regard for their printability and/or practicality on the table...)

When someone comes up with an affordable desktop printer that prints (reliably!) in HIPS with a comparable quality to resin printers, that may change, but until that point I expect that injection moulded plastic will remain the ideal for most gamers.

The thing with 3D printing is that it's not just about overall cost.
I would rather pay money than have to house, maintain, supply and learn to use a 3D printer.
I would rather clean, assemble and paint kits form a wargaming company, because it's relaxing.
I only have so much time and space.

I generally prefer Mantic miniatures to GW.
I am not looking for a fragile, technically marvellous, sculptures. I want gaming pieces.
Gaming pieces that I can make my own a bit and then paint to a table top standard without too much fuss, put in a box and handle constantly for a few hours on a regular basis.

Mantic plastics are great for that. Not as cost effective as they used to be and not the cheapest anymore, but some nicer stuff has been coming out.
GW charges a lot of money for miniatures that are not well suited to wargaming.

 Tamereth wrote:
What is it with a small minority of people trying to push everyone to 3D print.

Whenever I see these people posting I just mentally swap "3D printing" for "crypto" and it all falls into place.

 Tamereth wrote:
What is it with a small minority of people trying to push everyone to 3D print. 3D printing is a hobby in and of itself, I don't have time or desire to do it. Neither do many wargamers. Hell most wargamers I know find painting an army a chore.

Back to the news the new ogres look really nice. They have moved away from the tiny legged almost comical look of the originals and thats good on all accounts. Mantics model design and quality has definitely improved over the last couple of years and KoW has become much more popular. I hope they have the funding to keep putting out new plastics like this without resorting to kickstarters all the time.

I think you may be unnecessarily conflating "3d printing ones own models" and "purchasing 3d printed models". At least half of those advocating 3d printed models are -like myself- advocating purchasing 3d printed models. Functionally, it's no different for the consumer than purchasing any other small-shop models. Something which have always been an option for all and the preference of some.

I certainly don't intend to have my own printer anytime soon, but I've bought a good number of 3D printed models this year

Purchasing 3D printed models was a mixed experience by now
not all came with supports removed (with the possibility it was not cured after to save time/money, so they were cheaper for a reason), some came broken and/or warped, none were cheaper than the normal plastic models

3D prints are usually cheaper than GW, but nearly all other models are cheaper than GW no matter if 3D print or normal casts, while they hardly compete with non-GW plastics for the price alone

you get some special designs that are not available otherwise, be it a historical regiment or fantasy/sci-fi theme that is too niche to be worth casting

the argument that selling 3D prints will replace HIPS because of the price is just naive at best. It can be cheaper if you print yourself (just calculating the raw materials), but commercial mass-production is not there at all
and just because it is cheaper than GW does not mean it is cheaper than HIPS
So Mantic going the way to give people/shops the possibility to print their own resin upgrades is less because of the price but the ability to keep up with demand and make it easier to stock their product line

Honestly I'm surprised nobody has done STL upgrade bits before now, it seems like the perfect plan. Even if you give them away, it costs nothing but a little sculptor time and drives sales of the base HIPS kit that you have a massive profit margin on.

 kodos wrote:
Purchasing 3D printed models was a mixed experience by now
not all came with supports removed (with the possibility it was not cured after to save time/money, so they were cheaper for a reason), some came broken and/or warped, none were cheaper than the normal plastic models

3D prints are usually cheaper than GW, but nearly all other models are cheaper than GW no matter if 3D print or normal casts, while they hardly compete with non-GW plastics for the price alone

you get some special designs that are not available otherwise, be it a historical regiment or fantasy/sci-fi theme that is too niche to be worth casting

the argument that selling 3D prints will replace HIPS because of the price is just naive at best. It can be cheaper if you print yourself (just calculating the raw materials), but commercial mass-production is not there at all

Everything above is just barely true, and I would have agreed with you heartily until this year when I looked up and realized how my buying habits were shifting.

Only my observations, but this is the year where I've found that the quality, reliability, affordability and availability hit a tipping point to where purchasing 3d printed figures is appealing to me, a dedicated bargain hunter (cheapskate).

A regiment of 20 Chaos Warriors for $25 is in spitting distance of Mantic and WGA prices. Packs of sci Fi troopers 10 for$12.50 (with 10 unique poses) is a great way to get my gaming dollar if the designs are more appealing than what's available in HIPS. Mass production isn't necessary when artists license out their work, a slew of small shop printers vie to meet demand and their battles for buyers bring the prices down to my level

Yes multipart HIPS is awesome, a better material that I will continue to buy, and not likely to go anywhere, and yes Mantic puts out a good product that is price competitive. However, things are changing in the 3d printing realm that are going to take increasingly large bites out of the market.