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instead of a CoK 23, there will be an updated Gamers Edition including all the updated rules and army lists

there will be also rules for small and large battles (KoW Ambush and Legendary Battles) as well as Siege Rules

Background will be available to download and they plan also their own App


for new models, there will be HIPS Ogres, new Chariots (for all) and new parts for Slasher und Giant

The new HIPS ogres look nice but I still have a huge number of the old ones to paint.

Further updates at 3pm BST - roughly 30 minutes from now.

Great stuff. I've been advocating for plastic ogres for a long time now, one sprue can cover a lot of units and it makes them the most beginner-friendly army in models as well as rules.

I guess making molds from the new ones to upgrade the legs of the old ones with GreenStuff/Milliput is doable

This is great news.
I didn't buy the most recent Clash of Kings, I was just researching options for siege battles for our campaign that starts next week and I don't care a whit for Mantic Fluff.

I will be getting this book!

The new Ogres look nice. About time Mantic addressed the amount of books needed to carry to play the game.

Also the rules as they are now seem to work at 1,000pts and 3,000pts+. Not sure what changes they are going to make for those scales, may be no Hordes in 1,000pts? That is the only thing I can think of.

Still not enough to get me excited about KoW. I may play the odd game here and there, but I highly doubt I'll be buying any more rules for KoW... well, unless the nerve test changes to 2D3 (2D6 is far too swingy), instead of double/triple attacks make it double/triple amount of damage (speed ups the game and has more or less the same end result).

 stonehorse wrote:
The new Ogres look nice. About time Mantic addressed the amount of books needed to carry to play the game.

Also the rules as they are now seem to work at 1,000pts and 3,000pts+. Not sure what changes they are going to make for those scales, may be no Hordes in 1,000pts? That is the only thing I can think of.

Still not enough to get me excited about KoW. I may play the odd game here and there, but I highly doubt I'll be buying any more rules for KoW... well, unless the nerve test changes to 2D3 (2D6 is far too swingy), instead of double/triple attacks make it double/triple amount of damage (speed ups the game and has more or less the same end result).

Interesting observations/suggestions. Are those really what's keeping you from playing KoW? They seem like relatively minor issues and not at all gamebreaking. 2x/3x attacks is a pretty small thing. I haven't found the current nerve test roll to be too swingy unless you're really counting on a particular unit to stick around.

Ogres look great, very happy to see some 1k point specific rules as the game doesn't quite work at that points level due to skew builds being very easy (3 dragons, etc.)

 Eilif wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
The new Ogres look nice. About time Mantic addressed the amount of books needed to carry to play the game.

Also the rules as they are now seem to work at 1,000pts and 3,000pts+. Not sure what changes they are going to make for those scales, may be no Hordes in 1,000pts? That is the only thing I can think of.

Still not enough to get me excited about KoW. I may play the odd game here and there, but I highly doubt I'll be buying any more rules for KoW... well, unless the nerve test changes to 2D3 (2D6 is far too swingy), instead of double/triple attacks make it double/triple amount of damage (speed ups the game and has more or less the same end result).

Interesting observations/suggestions. Are those really what's keeping you from playing KoW? They seem like relatively minor issues and not at all gamebreaking. 2x/3x attacks is a pretty small thing. I haven't found the current nerve test roll to be too swingy unless you're really counting on a particular unit to stick around.

Not the main things, but they add to my other issues to make the game bad in my view, if you want my full here it is. Edit, changing the two points mentioned earlier may make the game a bit better however.

 stonehorse wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
The new Ogres look nice. About time Mantic addressed the amount of books needed to carry to play the game.

Also the rules as they are now seem to work at 1,000pts and 3,000pts+. Not sure what changes they are going to make for those scales, may be no Hordes in 1,000pts? That is the only thing I can think of.

Still not enough to get me excited about KoW. I may play the odd game here and there, but I highly doubt I'll be buying any more rules for KoW... well, unless the nerve test changes to 2D3 (2D6 is far too swingy), instead of double/triple attacks make it double/triple amount of damage (speed ups the game and has more or less the same end result).

Interesting observations/suggestions. Are those really what's keeping you from playing KoW? They seem like relatively minor issues and not at all gamebreaking. 2x/3x attacks is a pretty small thing. I haven't found the current nerve test roll to be too swingy unless you're really counting on a particular unit to stick around.

Not the main things, but they add to my other issues to make the game bad in my view, if you want my full here it is. Edit, changing the two points mentioned earlier may make the game a bit better however.

Sorry, but I don't have 25 minutes to dedicate to watching a review, but if your points are summarized in a blog or post somewhere, I'd be happy to read them.

I really enjoy the KoW rules but I'm genuinely interested in reading contrasting opinions.

Do we know if the Uncharted Empires lists will be in the new book, or will they remain separate?

Edit: Nevermind, it's right there on the preorder page:

This Book contains all the rules from the Third Edition Rulebook, Uncharted Empires and the changes introduced in Clash of Kings 2022. It also includes all the updates and erratas for those books and combines them into one tome.

You can also hear Kyle talk about the book here:


While I don't really care about tiny games or siege games or fantasy apocalypse games, I appreciate that they're making these rules available for those who do. Worth noting that they preview the clarification on 'shortest distance' for charges (it's the one that has the fewest degrees of pivot, I believe) and the changes to Host Shadowbeast, which IMO are awesome both from a balance standpoint and giving milksop casters some potential combat punch.

Mcdougall Designs now has the compendium on pre order for all stateside customers at 20% off.

Twilight Kin confirmed as coming next year.

https://www.manticgames.com/news/evil-things-come-to-elves-that-wait-twilight-kin-kings-of-war/

So the new red book has no background?

And, if I already have Uncharted Empires and CoK 2022, the only new stuff is tweaks?

Just want to make sure I don't miss out picking it up if it has something new in it, but it seems like (a great) compilation only.

It's also this year's tournament updates, right? If you would have bought Clash of Kings 2023, buy this. Otherwise I dunno.

caladancid wrote:
So the new red book has no background?

And, if I already have Uncharted Empires and CoK 2022, the only new stuff is tweaks?

Just want to make sure I don't miss out picking it up if it has something new in it, but it seems like (a great) compilation only.

No background, all rules and army lists (apart from TK) plus the updates from Clash of Kings for this year. Plus three new gaming modes - siege, ambush, legendary battles.

It also has CoK 2023 built in as well as the latest errata and mechanics changes.

 Maccwar wrote:
Twilight Kin confirmed as coming next year.

I could use some evil elves in hard plastic. Hopefully the long wait will be worth it.

I look forward to the plastic Twilight Kin, even if their sides are smooth and oddly detailed.

plastic evil Elves is a big one and looking forward to what "horror" mantic is upt to

I like Twilight Kin the further and further they get away from 'I dunno, Dark Elves?' as an army concept

And the continued integration of Night Stalkers stuff is interesting, adds to the NS' identity in the process.

Looks at the 10+ Kings of War rulesbooks I've aquired over the last 2 months......

"YAY" a new rulebook that replaces all those...

That sucks. Were there any of the usual hints like a 6+ months long absence of new books to indicate an edition change? I have no idea if that applies to Mantic' s release schedule personally.

There's no edition change, this is the usual yearly update except this time it's a reprint of the full rulebook instead of a "Chapter Approved" book of updates.

 Eilif wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
The new Ogres look nice. About time Mantic addressed the amount of books needed to carry to play the game.

Also the rules as they are now seem to work at 1,000pts and 3,000pts+. Not sure what changes they are going to make for those scales, may be no Hordes in 1,000pts? That is the only thing I can think of.

Still not enough to get me excited about KoW. I may play the odd game here and there, but I highly doubt I'll be buying any more rules for KoW... well, unless the nerve test changes to 2D3 (2D6 is far too swingy), instead of double/triple attacks make it double/triple amount of damage (speed ups the game and has more or less the same end result).

Interesting observations/suggestions. Are those really what's keeping you from playing KoW? They seem like relatively minor issues and not at all gamebreaking. 2x/3x attacks is a pretty small thing. I haven't found the current nerve test roll to be too swingy unless you're really counting on a particular unit to stick around.

Not the main things, but they add to my other issues to make the game bad in my view, if you want my full here it is. Edit, changing the two points mentioned earlier may make the game a bit better however.

Sorry, but I don't have 25 minutes to dedicate to watching a review, but if your points are summarized in a blog or post somewhere, I'd be happy to read them.

I really enjoy the KoW rules but I'm genuinely interested in reading contrasting opinions.

Fair enough.

Not so much a blog, but I can do a quick bullet point.

• Units combat effectiveness doesn't degrade as they take damage, a unit that has been heavily battered fights just as well as a fresh undamaged unit.

• Unit pivoting on a central point, while easier for game play does present some odd visuals... highlighted with Hordes of Cavalry. Horses would really struggle to move like that!

• Unit footprints mean that units are very inflexible. This can result in units not being able to engage an enemy unit that they could if the unit could slightly reform.

• Units live or die by the nerve roll, this is where the real 'damage' resides. Do 1 point of damage and roll very high and that can see a unit removed or wavering. The opposite is true do a phenomenal amount of damage and roll very poor the unit still remains, and may even be unfazed by your attack.

But the main issue is this:

• The game has zero player interaction, when it is your turn... it is your turn and your opponent may as well not be there. This makes combat a little bit dull. As there is no risk/reward, no uncertainty of how the combat is going to play out. In WFB for example combat was a back and forth thing, a charging unit wasn't guaranteed victory, it made the uncertainty of combat exciting.

KoW is good for tournament play I imagine, for Rank & File games I'm more a casual/narrative focused gamer.

 stonehorse wrote:

Fair enough.

Not so much a blog, but I can do a quick bullet point.

• Units combat effectiveness doesn't degrade as they take damage, a unit that has been heavily battered fights just as well as a fresh undamaged unit.

• Unit pivoting on a central point, while easier for game play does present some odd visuals... highlighted with Hordes of Cavalry. Horses would really struggle to move like that!

• Unit footprints mean that units are very inflexible. This can result in units not being able to engage an enemy unit that they could if the unit could slightly reform.

• Units live or die by the nerve roll, this is where the real 'damage' resides. Do 1 point of damage and roll very high and that can see a unit removed or wavering. The opposite is true do a phenomenal amount of damage and roll very poor the unit still remains, and may even be unfazed by your attack.

But the main issue is this:

• The game has zero player interaction, when it is your turn... it is your turn and your opponent may as well not be there. This makes combat a little bit dull. As there is no risk/reward, no uncertainty of how the combat is going to play out. In WFB for example combat was a back and forth thing, a charging unit wasn't guaranteed victory, it made the uncertainty of combat exciting.

KoW is good for tournament play I imagine, for Rank & File games I'm more a casual/narrative focused gamer.

Thanks for that. I appreciate the summary.

As It happens, I'm also a casual, narrative player, but I put a premium on ease and speed of play so that may account for much of what follows. By way of comparison, Song of Blades and Heroes and Dragon Rampant are my other fantasy gameswhich may help explain what why when it comes to big battles I embrace many of the aspects that you find unappealing.

Your points are mostly what I expected. The common -and completely valid- reasons Kings of War is not the flavor of game for many folks. Many of them are inherent to -or at least in service of- the rather single minded drive of the games authors towards quick play, streamlined rules and clarity which -as you rightly point out- does sacrifice flexibility and realism. One notable aspect that plays into several of your complaints is that, regardless of how the players base their miniatures, KoW is an element-based game system like HoTT or DBA with inflexible unit footprint sizes and no casualty removal.

I've already started how I haven't found the Nerve/Break test to feel overly swingy in practice. Further, I actually appreciate how it pushes damage and morale into one roll, but I can completely see how some good might not like it, especially since unit degradation has been almost completely removed from the game.

As for your main point, perhaps it's experiential, but the lack of interaction coming from a strict IGOUGO system just hasn't seemed like much of a drawback for myself and those who seen to enjoy the game. Admittedly, at our group we often have the owning player roll the nerve tests (which further speeds up play) but KoW is such a fast-playing game that between informing your opponent of your defense stat, answering other stat inquiries and planning your next moves, there just didn't seem to be an excessive amount of downtime for the non-active player.

Again, none of this to convince you that KOW is the game for you and the many other players who prefer more realism/interaction/reaction/flexibility/detail/etc. Just a little pushback to suggest that many folks don't find the points you raise to be a big deal and may even see them as positive features in as much as they streamline and simplify play.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
There's no edition change, this is the usual yearly update except this time it's a reprint of the full rulebook instead of a "Chapter Approved" book of updates.

Thanks for clarifying. Hopefully that'll lesson the sting a bit for those who bought books recently.

 Eilif wrote:


Thanks for that. I appreciate the summary. As It happens, I'm also a casual, narrative player, but I put a premium on ease and speed of play. By way of comparison, Song of Blades and Heroes and Dragon Rampant are my other fantasy games. That may help explain what why when it comes to big battles I embrace many of the aspects that you find unappealing.

Your points are mostly what I expected. The common -and completely valid- reasons Kings of War is not the flavor of game for many folks.

Many of them are inherent to, or at least in service of- the rather single minded drive of the game towards quick play, streamlined rules and clarity which -as you tightly point out- does sacrifice flexibility and realism.

I've already started how I haven't found the Nerve/Break test to feel overly swingy in practice. I actually appreciate how it pushes damage and morale into one mechanic, but I can completely see how some good might not like it , especially since unit degradation has been almost completely removed from the game.

As for your main point, perhaps it's experiential, but the lack of interaction coming from a strict IGOUGO system just hasn't seemed like much of a drawback for myself and those who seen to enjoy the game.
Admittedly, at our group we often have the owning player roll the nerve tests (which further speeds up play) but KoW is such a fast-playing game that between informing your opponent of your defense stat, answering other stat inquiries and planning your next moves, there just didn't seem to be an excessive amount of downtime for the non-active player.

Again, none of this to convince you that KOW is the game for you and the many other players who prefer more realism/interaction/reaction/flexibility/detail/etc. Just a little pushback to suggest that many folks don't find the points you raise to be a big deal and we may even see then as features in as much as they streamline and simplify play.

I'm also a big fan of Dragon Rampant, that game gets a lot if things right I think.

Another game that is quick to play, is streamlined, and is simple to learn is Age of Fantasy Regiments by One Page Rules. Also a free game that is entirely model agnostic.

I used to be a big fan of KoW, it was my bread and butter when it first came out way back in 2009/10. Just as time has marched on I have found there are other games that do what it set out to do (quick, easy to learn/play mass combat rank & File game). That and my group have gone back to playing WFB 6th edition, which was peak Warhammer.

 stonehorse wrote:


I'm also a big fan of Dragon Rampant, that game gets a lot if things right I think.

Another game that is quick to play, is streamlined, and is simple to learn is Age of Fantasy Regiments by One Page Rules. Also a free game that is entirely model agnostic.

I used to be a big fan of KoW, it was my bread and butter when it first came out way back in 2009/10. Just as time has marched onI have found their are other games that do what it set out to do (quick, easy to learn/play mass combat rank & File game). That and my group have gone back yo playing g WFB 6th edition, which was peak Warhammer.

If you're a narrative player that doesn't mind crunch, then I can see where 6th edition Warhammer would be quite appealing. It's an incredibly flavorful game. I am occasionally tempted by 6th Ed WHFB and I draw my fluff and many of my minis from there and earlier. (Mantic fluff is middling at best) However, a quick flip through that big beautiful rulebook always squashes any desire to actually play it. I do frequently hit that era of the game for scenario ideas however. Our last KoW battle was a Chaos and Ogre refight of the Battle of La Maisontaal abbey and our KoW campaign that starts on Monday is set in the borderlands of the Old World.

I also discovered KoW in it's first edition and though I only played a few games before 2nd, it appealed to me right away and hasn't let up. Age of Fantasy Regiments (and regular Age of Fantasy) is a game that I do hope to try at some point. There's a slim chance it could be a KoW killer. My son and I play Grimdark future and it completely scratches my 40k itch without the layers of rules that I grew sick of 4 editions ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
There's no edition change, this is the usual yearly update except this time it's a reprint of the full rulebook instead of a "Chapter Approved" book of updates.

Thanks for clarifying. Hopefully that'll lesson the sting a bit for those who bought books recently.

I think this is a bit of a consolidating and money-saving move for Mantic. Unless you're charging GW prices and selling GW-amounts of product, a reprint of a big-hardbound rulebook isn't necessarily a big money maker. No company wants to be stuck with alot of unsold stock and retailers are wary of carrying the back catalogs of non-GW ranges in many cases. My assumption is that rather than reprinting the same rulebook and another supplement -both books that some players might not buy- they moved to produce one big rulebook that most players probably will buy and will be more appealing to retailers.

I am mildly annoyed to be buying another big rule book, but knowing that the core rules aren't changing (so I can lend/sell/give my current rulebook) and that clarifications, new army lists, new-and-old CoC material and siege and skirmish rules are being included makes me more willing to pony up for another book even with a 5 buck price hike. I definitely like having one book with no fluff (we KoW in the Old World anyway) rather than several rulebooks.

I will say though that if I wasn't exited by the prospect of new siege rules, I might just stick with the books I've got. New armies are unnecessary to me, updated stats and costs for units are already in easy army and though I appreciated Mantic's stabs at thematic scenarios in CoK books, I've already got a good number of them and a ridiculous number of great options from old warhammer books.